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2016-02-01T03:04:20Z vmonteco: Hello! :)
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2016-02-01T03:07:52Z vmonteco: I'm still trying to learn LISP, but I have a question that may seem weird : What kind of project LISP would be a perfect language for? (more than an other language, more than C or Python for instance). I already done a little game of life but I would like to learn with something else too to keep learning and using Lisp right. :)
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2016-02-01T03:09:24Z |3b|: "programming" :p
2016-02-01T03:10:22Z |3b| thinks it is particularly suited for things like prototyping, or dealing with changing or poorly specified requirements, but uses lisp for everything where possible
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2016-02-01T03:11:16Z yvm: Use it's reflection power.
2016-02-01T03:11:21Z yvm: Luke.
2016-02-01T03:12:06Z yvm: Make game instances autoprogrammable.
2016-02-01T03:12:27Z vmonteco: yvm: Like, modifying the upper layers of the language? (I may be wrong)
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2016-02-01T03:13:53Z vmonteco: yvm: "Game instances autoprogrammable". I didn't understand this, sorry :X
2016-02-01T03:15:19Z vmonteco: I've read somewhere that lisp is good for IA, is that right?
2016-02-01T03:15:28Z vmonteco: AI*
2016-02-01T03:15:35Z Zhivago: Yes. It is suitable for Internal Affairs.
2016-02-01T03:16:18Z Zhivago: You might claim that lisp has good support for symbolic reasoning, but that is out of fashion in AI, these days.
2016-02-01T03:17:30Z vmonteco: Zhivago: Ah.. :/
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2016-02-01T03:28:55Z jsgrant: vmonteco: Make a local password manager, that is stored via a custom dsl in a plain text *.lisp file that the system makes unreadable without a master password??
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2016-02-01T03:29:55Z jsgrant: (defkey web-cliki :username "blah" :password "bluh" :notes "Bleh eh eh.")
2016-02-01T03:30:31Z jsgrant: Actually a custom dsl interface for contacts might be a neat little mini-project.
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2016-02-01T03:31:36Z vmonteco: jsgrant: DSL? :S
2016-02-01T03:31:50Z jsgrant: Zhivago: (print "I demand to speak to my lawyer!") ?
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2016-02-01T03:32:42Z jsgrant: vmonteco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language
2016-02-01T03:33:46Z jsgrant: One of, if not the best things LISP can do over other lang (that I've seen/know about) is the ease to write macros and edit reader macros to make a custom sublang/dsl.
2016-02-01T03:34:23Z vmonteco: jsgrant: Ah, Interesting! But by "unreadable" you mean "in a cryptographic way"?
2016-02-01T03:35:38Z jsgrant: vmonteco: Well, there's several ways to do this that I can think of (I'm not experienced enough to say which way is the best design wise, by any means), but to basically yeah, lock down either the "key file" or individual keys in/for it.
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2016-02-01T03:37:22Z vmonteco: So basicaly a DB that requires a key to permit to read some data and gets it by prompting the user?
2016-02-01T03:37:57Z jsgrant: vmonteco: Database in a very loose sense, perhaps. :^P
2016-02-01T03:38:30Z jsgrant: But yeah, and not needing a proper "gui" but for it to all be in stored in a config-file of sorts.
2016-02-01T03:39:17Z vmonteco: I'll try this then, thank you for this subject :)
2016-02-01T03:39:43Z jsgrant: vmonteco: Yeah, just throwin out the first thing to came to mind.
2016-02-01T03:41:14Z jsgrant feels like that would be the kind of project one may find in "PCL", but has still yet to crack it open. :^P
2016-02-01T03:41:52Z vmonteco: jsgrant: I'm reading the PCL, There is a little db manager for music albums informations thus far :P
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2016-02-01T03:43:22Z jason_m: anybody using latest (svn) ccl on a raspberry pi?  i just tried and hit a segmentation fault.
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2016-02-01T03:55:07Z jsgrant: vmonteco: Oh; that sounds trivial, but fun.
2016-02-01T03:55:42Z jsgrant wonders how obnoxious it'd be to implement somefactor of a portable ogg vorbis codec in CL.
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2016-02-01T03:57:52Z jsgrant: jason_m: Sorry, though only thing I've used my RPi for is a media streaming box.
2016-02-01T03:59:05Z jsgrant is tentatively looking to play with Interim if they ever implement a USB Controller so I can use my keyboard without any soldering or anything, but besides that no real interest.
2016-02-01T03:59:19Z jason_m: this is my fist boot, i'm doing an apt-get upgrade, maybe that will fix something
2016-02-01T03:59:47Z jsgrant: jason_m: Raspian?
2016-02-01T03:59:52Z jason_m: yes
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2016-02-01T04:00:37Z jason_m: i did an strace, and the only call it makes is execve or one of those (upgrade is still going on) which seems fishy
2016-02-01T04:00:37Z jsgrant: jason_m: Well "I guess it couldn't hurt". If you haven't checked, I think #raspberry_pi, they were really nice/helpful last time I needed help.
2016-02-01T04:01:40Z jason_m: ah thanks, good to know
2016-02-01T04:02:41Z jsgrant: jason_m: Yeah, I haven't used Raspian in months but I've had a hanging-update issue in OSMC (which was originally based of it) a number times not sure why that is.
2016-02-01T04:03:56Z jsgrant: jason_m: Just as a general question, do you have any explict plans for such a lil' box or is it just in "toy mode" right now?
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2016-02-01T04:05:28Z jason_m: jsgrant: i bought it a long time ago, (it's a version 1 model b) and didn't have any plans for it so i didn't do anything with it.  i haven't set up a long-standing, remote lisp image, so i was thinking about using it to play with that.
2016-02-01T04:05:43Z jason_m: just have a remote lisp i can connect to from any box
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2016-02-01T04:06:52Z jsgrant: Ah, okay neat.
2016-02-01T04:08:02Z jason_m: jsgrant: i toyed with the idea of using it to power a "cooling system" for a home brewing setup.  read temperate, if warm, run fan.  but then i felt bad putting it to use for such a simple task :)
2016-02-01T04:08:45Z jason_m: this would be for monitoring the fermentation temperature
2016-02-01T04:08:51Z jsgrant: jason_m: ++
2016-02-01T04:09:02Z jsgrant: Don't even drink, and think that's relatively neat.
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2016-02-01T04:09:38Z jsgrant: But yeah, a bit overkill. :^)
2016-02-01T04:11:02Z jason_m: i suppose the price is right
2016-02-01T04:12:23Z jsgrant: jason_m: Just force it to run absurdly complex and in-turn squeezed in algorithms to predict the ideal temp, factoring tide/moonphase, season, air-pressure, etc.
2016-02-01T04:12:54Z jsgrant: When in doubt and with too much computing power, overtly over engineer.
2016-02-01T04:13:04Z jason_m: sounds fun, maybe i will :)
2016-02-01T04:15:06Z jsgrant wonders if those "RPi Zeros" are still perpetually sold out.
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2016-02-01T04:23:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-01T04:30:20Z jsgrant: beach: o/
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2016-02-01T05:00:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: \o
2016-02-01T05:01:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I was trying to find the bit of AMOP you had on your site recently.  Is it still up?
2016-02-01T05:01:32Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2016-02-01T05:01:35Z beach: That one?
2016-02-01T05:01:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2016-02-01T05:01:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess I missed the obvious link chain :)
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2016-02-01T05:03:17Z beach: I am still working on it.  So if you find some navigation links missing on some pages describing functions or methods, no need to report it. :)
2016-02-01T05:04:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it says thta "portable programs must not define primary methods on initialize-instance"
2016-02-01T05:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: But CLHS doesn't list any restriction: did that change?
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2016-02-01T05:06:14Z beach: I don't remember that.
2016-02-01T05:06:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-class-metaobjects2.html
2016-02-01T05:06:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bottom of page
2016-02-01T05:06:53Z beach: I meant the Common Lisp HyperSpec side of it.
2016-02-01T05:07:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm#initialize-instance
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2016-02-01T05:08:04Z beach: There are several differences between those two documents, and the information is often conflicting.
2016-02-01T05:08:39Z beach: Or, not "conflicting", but as in this case slightly different.
2016-02-01T05:09:07Z beach: Such a situation usually means that you have to obey the most restrictive of the two if you want to use both.
2016-02-01T05:09:46Z beach: You will find plenty of those situations.
2016-02-01T05:09:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok
2016-02-01T05:10:03Z beach: For example, as I recall, the MOP doesn't require class names to be symbols, by the Common Lisp HyperSpec does.
2016-02-01T05:10:06Z beach: etc, etc.
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2016-02-01T05:13:44Z beach: Also, keep in mind that AMOP was published in 1991 and the Common Lisp standard in 1994.
2016-02-01T05:14:42Z beach: The people who wrote the Common Lisp standard did not feel they had to respect everything that was written in the AMOP, especially since only a subset of it was adopted as standard.
2016-02-01T05:17:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, that's helpful.
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2016-02-01T05:32:54Z chrisbdaemon: what is a good resouce to use to learn lips? I'm taking a discrete math course in a few months and they require learning lisp but I'd like to get a head start
2016-02-01T05:33:05Z chrisbdaemon: s/lips/lisp/
2016-02-01T05:33:27Z beach: chrisbdaemon: Do you already know some other programming languages?
2016-02-01T05:33:50Z chrisbdaemon: beach: ya, c, c++, ruby. python, go, etc
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2016-02-01T05:34:06Z chrisbdaemon: learning java now in another class
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2016-02-01T05:34:12Z beach: Then the usual recommendation from #lisp would be PCL.
2016-02-01T05:34:20Z beach: minion: Please tell chrisbdaemon about PCL.
2016-02-01T05:34:20Z minion: chrisbdaemon: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-02-01T05:35:30Z beach: chrisbdaemon: Make sure that the people in charge of the course accept Common Lisp.
2016-02-01T05:35:55Z chrisbdaemon: ok, i'll check tomorrow
2016-02-01T05:36:09Z beach: chrisbdaemon: Some discrete math people prefer Scheme, and they think of Scheme as a dialect of Lisp.
2016-02-01T05:37:20Z chrisbdaemon: so please correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i've heard lisp is primarily used in acadamia and cs research, right?
2016-02-01T05:37:32Z beach: You are wrong.
2016-02-01T05:37:56Z beach: In fact, Lisp is not used in academia much at all these days.
2016-02-01T05:38:01Z chrisbdaemon: I assumed as much, do you have the time to enlighten me?
2016-02-01T05:38:28Z beach: Even MIT uses Python these days.
2016-02-01T05:39:45Z beach: And in programming-language research, there seems to be more work done in purely-functional languages such as Haskell.
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2016-02-01T05:42:40Z chrisbdaemon: what are the differences between some of the different dialects of Lisp?
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2016-02-01T05:42:57Z beach: chrisbdaemon: Also, there is no widespread agreement as to what "Lisp" or "a dialect of Lisp" means.  Some people think Scheme or Clojure or even Javascript are examples of "Lisp".
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2016-02-01T05:43:35Z chrisbdaemon: Javascript? Interesting
2016-02-01T05:43:45Z loke_: chrisbdaemon: No. Javascript is not interesting.
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2016-02-01T05:43:58Z moore33: loke_: Yes it is.
2016-02-01T05:44:08Z moore33: Morning all, by the way :)
2016-02-01T05:44:11Z beach: chrisbdaemon: http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp
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2016-02-01T05:44:19Z chrisbdaemon: I was referring to its ties to lisp
2016-02-01T05:44:21Z loke_: moore33: As a study in how to not design a programming language, sure. :-)
2016-02-01T05:44:23Z beach: Hello moore33
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2016-02-01T05:44:49Z loke_: chrisbdaemon: It doesn't tie any more to lisp than any other language that has first class functions...
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2016-02-01T05:45:29Z chrisbdaemon: then how is it an example of "Lisp"?
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2016-02-01T05:45:38Z beach: chrisbdaemon: It is just that a lot of people who invent new languages or who decide to use some random language for some reason that I can't figure out would like to think that it is "a Lisp".
2016-02-01T05:46:01Z beach: chrisbdaemon: It is not an example of Lisp, but people would like to think it is.
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2016-02-01T05:46:47Z beach: chrisbdaemon: This is #lisp, and it is dedicated to Common Lisp, so it is best to stick to Common Lisp here.
2016-02-01T05:46:49Z H4ns: to make it easier, in this channel, only "common lisp" is "lisp".
2016-02-01T05:46:55Z chrisbdaemon: I've heard a lot about new lanuages claiming to be derived from lisp
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2016-02-01T05:47:40Z loke_: chrisbdaemon: Almost all languages have at least some roots in Lisp
2016-02-01T05:47:53Z loke_: It is, after all, the second oldest language.
2016-02-01T05:48:05Z loke_: (second oldest still in use)
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2016-02-01T05:48:35Z chrisbdaemon: hmm, I'm looking forward to trying it out :)
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2016-02-01T05:50:08Z beach: chrisbdaemon: More important for you perhaps than what may or may not be "a Lisp": If you decide to learn something other than Common Lisp, you won't get the excellent help from all the dedicated people in this channel.  I hear that there is almost nobody present in #scheme for instance.
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2016-02-01T05:50:12Z beach: [But I haven't checked myself]
2016-02-01T05:50:33Z chrisbdaemon: I'm assuming the course won't dive very deep beyond the surface of Lsip
2016-02-01T05:50:37Z chrisbdaemon: Lisp*
2016-02-01T05:51:13Z beach: I would check that, rather than assuming it.
2016-02-01T05:51:19Z beach: But that's just me.
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2016-02-01T05:55:49Z chrisbdaemon: beach: thanks for the link to PCL, just getting through the intro, I can tell its going to be a good read.
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2016-02-01T05:56:16Z beach: chrisbdaemon: Great!  Good luck.
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2016-02-01T13:21:33Z kenanb: is there a portable version of SBCL's depreciation declarations?
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2016-02-01T13:28:06Z scymtym: kenanb: given that the mechanism is relatively new, probably not. i think Fare may have looked into that, though. maybe ask him.
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2016-02-01T13:28:55Z kenanb: wow I didn't know it is new, it seems pretty nicely designed tho
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2016-02-01T13:31:46Z scymtym: kenanb: thanks (me did it)
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2016-02-01T13:32:12Z scymtym: that should have been /me did it or I did it
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2016-02-01T13:32:42Z kenanb: scymtym: wow, cool!
2016-02-01T13:33:06Z scymtym: based on previous work by nikodemus
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2016-02-01T13:33:47Z kenanb: scymtym: I don't even know if declarations in CL can be extended in a portable manner or not
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2016-02-01T13:34:31Z kenanb: but the commit didn't seem like relying on SBCL internals too much
2016-02-01T13:35:23Z Xach: kenanb: you can declare something to be a declaration
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2016-02-01T13:35:38Z scymtym: kenanb: there is (proclaim '(declaration …)) but that is cltl2, not cl
2016-02-01T13:35:59Z scymtym: also, the deprecation machinery needs to be tied into the compiler
2016-02-01T13:36:44Z kenanb: Xach, scymtym: woot!
2016-02-01T13:36:45Z scymtym: at least for SBCL. maybe other implementations are flexible enough to do it as an extension in "user code"
2016-02-01T13:36:48Z Xach: scymtym: proclaiming something a declaration is also in cl.
2016-02-01T13:37:08Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/declaration
2016-02-01T13:37:23Z scymtym: Xach: right, sorry. i was apparently thinking about DECLARATION-INFORMATION
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2016-02-01T13:38:21Z Xach should add cltl2 index to l1sp.org
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2016-02-01T13:39:42Z kenanb: I think I understand why it is important to tie it to compiler, but IMHO for it to be really useful in userspace it is essential that the functionality is portable
2016-02-01T13:41:24Z kenanb: scymtym: and I find this functionality to be incredibly helpful to development, so thanks for coming up with a nicely designed version, even if it is SBCL-only so far
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2016-02-01T13:48:55Z scymtym: kenanb: it is probably too early to tell whether the interface design really is appropriate. i hope that the interface doesn't have to change too much, though, as a lot fine-tuning and testing went into the current version
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2016-02-01T13:57:47Z ralt: what's DECLARATION-INFORMATION? Some brief googling only turned up a mailing list result that doesn't explain much.
2016-02-01T13:59:06Z Xach: ralt: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html has the info
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2016-02-01T14:00:23Z ralt: thanks
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2016-02-01T15:25:21Z Winowa2: anyone around?
2016-02-01T15:25:31Z H4ns: sure
2016-02-01T15:25:34Z Winowa2: i have some question regarding defun
2016-02-01T15:25:40Z Winowa2: am new in Lisp running on CL 10
2016-02-01T15:25:59Z H4ns: what is "cl 10"?
2016-02-01T15:26:09Z Winowa2: when a defun is created is it stored as a function in the memory like setf as a glbal variable?
2016-02-01T15:26:12Z Winowa2: Allegro Cl 10
2016-02-01T15:26:22Z Winowa2: the IDE
2016-02-01T15:26:50Z dlowe: Winowa2: SETF will set more than global variables, but yes, it's stored as a function in memory, accessible using the symbol you named it with.
2016-02-01T15:27:08Z dlowe: Winowa2: you might also check out #clnoobs if you're just starting out
2016-02-01T15:27:08Z Winowa2: how can i call the defun? i need the command for it
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2016-02-01T15:27:25Z Winowa2: dlowe: okay thanks will note that
2016-02-01T15:27:27Z dlowe: Winowa2: almost all lisp forms are in the form (<operation> <arguments...>)
2016-02-01T15:27:37Z dlowe: Winowa2: in this case, the operation is your function
2016-02-01T15:27:56Z dlowe: so (my-function my-arg1 my-arg2)
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2016-02-01T15:29:01Z Winowa2: evverytime i code for defun it runs automatically
2016-02-01T15:29:16Z Winowa2: when i try doing (function-name)
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2016-02-01T15:29:22Z Winowa2: it give me an error
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2016-02-01T15:30:37Z Winowa2: dlowe: can i throw it in bpaste and you give it a quick look? Its soemthign really basci but i want to know what i am doing before blindly carrying on
2016-02-01T15:30:47Z dlowe: sure. you can also use paste.lisp.org
2016-02-01T15:30:51Z H4ns: Winowa2: have a look at the document "basic lisp techniques" which is available at the franz.com web site and gives an introduction to using allegro cl for new programmers.
2016-02-01T15:32:24Z Winowa2: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KCY
2016-02-01T15:32:47Z Winowa2: H4ns : sure will do.
2016-02-01T15:33:11Z H4ns: Winowa2: type (AreaOfCircle)
2016-02-01T15:33:22Z dlowe: Winowa2: your function doesn't take a parameter
2016-02-01T15:33:29Z H4ns: Winowa2: your function does not accept any arguments, so you must not supply them.
2016-02-01T15:33:34Z dlowe: what H4ns said
2016-02-01T15:33:36Z drmeister: Does it say in the CLHS that CALL-NEXT-METHOD cannot be called with something like (let ((zzz (find-symbol "CALL-NEXT-METHOD" :CL))) (apply zzz ...))
2016-02-01T15:34:25Z moore33: drmeister: call-next-method is defined in the lexical environment of a method...
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2016-02-01T15:34:46Z Winowa2: it works now
2016-02-01T15:34:52Z Winowa2: weird i tried it earlier it didnt
2016-02-01T15:34:55Z dlowe: "The function call-next-method has lexical scope and indefinite extent and can only be used within the body of a method defined by a method-defining form."
2016-02-01T15:35:03Z Winowa2: was doing this to setf  and it works
2016-02-01T15:35:08Z H4ns: drmeister: it is defined as "local function", which is also a strong hint that you can't look it up at run time the way you tried.
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2016-02-01T15:35:22Z moore33: pile on
2016-02-01T15:35:30Z drmeister: Ok, thank you - that's what that means.
2016-02-01T15:35:41Z Winowa2: btw can i know is setf or setq more widely sued and whats the diffrence?
2016-02-01T15:36:01Z Winowa2: when i gogled they say setq is the old term setf is the newer version
2016-02-01T15:36:06Z dlowe: Just use setf
2016-02-01T15:36:11Z drmeister: Because in the ECL CLOS code CALL-NEXT-METHOD is defined in the global environment, which strongly effected my thinking.
2016-02-01T15:36:11Z H4ns: Winowa2: setf operates on places, setq only on symbols.
2016-02-01T15:36:15Z Winowa2: my lecturer on the other hand says setq is used in most codes
2016-02-01T15:36:27Z dlowe: your lecturer is in the academic ivory tower :)
2016-02-01T15:36:32Z H4ns: Winowa2: use setf.
2016-02-01T15:36:51Z dlowe: you really, *really* can't believe what you hear about lisp from CS professors
2016-02-01T15:37:06Z Winowa2: hahaha thought so too a little
2016-02-01T15:37:23Z moore33: Hey, I use setq.
2016-02-01T15:37:50Z dlowe: moore33: it's fine, it's just not something to recommend.
2016-02-01T15:37:51Z H4ns: moore33: [x] you're doing it wrong
2016-02-01T15:37:52Z H4ns: :D
2016-02-01T15:37:56Z Winowa2: H4ns: can you break it down a little more what you meant by symbols and places?
2016-02-01T15:38:01Z moore33: Nah
2016-02-01T15:38:11Z H4ns: moore33: ok.  i take it back.
2016-02-01T15:38:24Z dlowe: like those people who use EQ on objects instead of EQL for everything.
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2016-02-01T15:39:11Z H4ns: Winowa2: a symbol is just that, a symbol.  a place can also be a function invocation, and one can define places to make things like (setf (radius circle) 20) possible.
2016-02-01T15:39:24Z moore33: dlowe: I do that too.
2016-02-01T15:39:54Z dlowe: moore33: must be something you learn from a mentor
2016-02-01T15:40:31Z moore33: Something I learned when CLtL1 was all the rage.
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2016-02-01T15:42:04Z dlowe: It's perfectly readable. Like reading something with "thee" and "thou" and "ye olde" in it :)
2016-02-01T15:42:40Z Winowa2: H4ns: thanks i get the idea now.
2016-02-01T15:42:44Z Winowa2: dlowe : thanks too
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2016-02-01T16:57:24Z dreamaddict: does anyone know much about mixalot?  or done much work with it?
2016-02-01T16:57:24Z minion: dreamaddict, memo from pjb: hello world is 4MB in clisp, and 12288 bytes in ecl, just like with gcc.
2016-02-01T16:58:46Z jasom: Winowa2: see clhs 5.1.1 for all the gory details
2016-02-01T16:58:52Z jasom: clhs 5.1.1
2016-02-01T16:58:52Z specbot: Overview of Places and Generalized Reference: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm
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2016-02-01T17:07:22Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: Fare has a workout-timer iirc, and there is shuffletron as well
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2016-02-01T17:10:28Z dreamaddict: workout-timer?
2016-02-01T17:11:59Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/workout-timer/tree/master
2016-02-01T17:12:32Z moore33: seven minutes lol
2016-02-01T17:13:22Z dreamaddict: shuffletron does play mp3s as well
2016-02-01T17:13:50Z dreamaddict: what I'm trying to do is operate right on the samples, like put an effect over a stream
2016-02-01T17:15:57Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: I don't think mixalot can help you there
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2016-02-01T17:16:26Z PuercoPop: dreamaddict: apropos there are also some WIP alsa bindings https://github.com/rick-monster/cl-alsaseq
2016-02-01T17:17:48Z dreamaddict: ok I figured there was not those tools in mixalot
2016-02-01T17:18:21Z dreamaddict: seemed easy, a code snippet put some samples into a buffer, hey, if I just divide each of those samples by 2 it will be half as loud aaand no
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2016-02-01T17:36:48Z axion: i'm surprised mixalot doesnt support this
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2016-02-01T17:37:29Z axion: then again, i've been keeping an eye on the project for 2 years, waiting for it to meet my own needs, and have seen very minimal changes
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2016-02-01T17:39:18Z dreamaddict: I don't get what it supports, exactly
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2016-02-01T17:39:50Z dreamaddict: it will play an mp3 but I don't know what you are supposed to do to get anywhere past that, like putting a volume control on it
2016-02-01T17:40:11Z dreamaddict: maybe I want to drive that volume control by another oscillator, for fun, no idea where it is supposed to go
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2016-02-01T17:40:25Z dreamaddict: probably I am just not cut out for this whole coding thing
2016-02-01T17:41:02Z axion: it supports outputting samples to an audio device, and very basic querying of audio metadata
2016-02-01T17:41:22Z dreamaddict: that sounds right
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2016-02-01T17:42:23Z axion: what exactly are you trying to do?
2016-02-01T17:42:56Z dreamaddict: for now, make a very tiny application that will play two mp3s simultaneously, and then control how much of each one plays with a volume control
2016-02-01T17:43:00Z dreamaddict: "crossfader"
2016-02-01T17:43:37Z dreamaddict: I tried just going into the sample buffer and dividing all of the samples by 2, or something like that, and apparently my attempts were crap
2016-02-01T17:43:59Z axion: i would start simple and just try playing 2 streams simultaneously, which it does support
2016-02-01T17:44:04Z dreamaddict: already done!
2016-02-01T17:44:09Z dreamaddict: I got that far
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2016-02-01T17:45:16Z dreamaddict: then is the part where...somehow I control the volume of each side independently
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2016-02-01T17:46:52Z dreamaddict: mixalot has nothing for that
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2016-02-01T17:50:00Z axion: tbh if i were doing this i would use cl-sdl2-mixer
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2016-02-01T17:52:30Z dreamaddict: at least that package has a volume control on it...
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2016-02-01T18:17:59Z Th30n: Is the 'iterate' package still the go to package for lispy loop?
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2016-02-01T18:23:52Z drdo: b
2016-02-01T18:23:54Z drdo: oops
2016-02-01T18:25:29Z mordocai: Th30n: from the conversation i've seen here, I think it is
2016-02-01T18:25:45Z mordocai: Can't say much from experience on it though, i'm still new and have been using regular loop so far
2016-02-01T18:25:55Z mordocai: Plan on looking at iterate shortly
2016-02-01T18:26:41Z Th30n: Thanks!
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2016-02-01T18:42:11Z DeadTrickster: sbcl specific but anyway:
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2016-02-01T18:42:19Z DeadTrickster: if lambda doesn't use any lexical variables and returned from function what happens with it 'environment'? Is it recreated each time lambda is returned?
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2016-02-01T18:42:58Z DeadTrickster: i.e. what is faster - returning #'<name> or (lambda ....)
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2016-02-01T18:45:37Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I think it isn't defined. some implementations may optimize it, and some recreate it. I'd say faster is using #'<name>
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2016-02-01T18:46:58Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, yeah that is what I'm using now
2016-02-01T18:47:07Z DeadTrickster: probably I'll leave it as is
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2016-02-01T18:47:13Z dwchandler: have you tried to measure?
2016-02-01T18:48:20Z DeadTrickster: well not really because I want to understand mechanics behind it. because you know closures are closing over something so there might by environment and hence overhead
2016-02-01T18:49:09Z DeadTrickster: however if closure in fact doesn't close over something? how it call free closure
2016-02-01T18:49:26Z DeadTrickster: probably not though ^-)
2016-02-01T18:49:56Z Bike:  sbcl has functions and closures. closures are a function plus an environment. sbcl is smart enough to avoid making closures if it doesn't have to.
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2016-02-01T18:50:22Z DeadTrickster: Bike, what about others?
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2016-02-01T18:50:46Z Bike: probably most of them.  it's usually not that difficult an optimization.
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2016-02-01T18:51:25Z Bike: and it's a pretty basic one since it eliminates an allocation and other complications.
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2016-02-01T18:52:46Z DeadTrickster: hm on sbcl assembly code is in fact even shorter for lambda version
2016-02-01T18:53:05Z Bike: i don't know what you mean by #name versus lambda. like, an flet or something?
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2016-02-01T18:55:09Z ggole_: Shorter assembly may be because code emitted for #'name has to face the prospect of redefinition of the name (unless declared inline) whereas the lambda does not
2016-02-01T18:55:14Z ggole_: This has nothing to do with environments, however.
2016-02-01T18:55:16Z DeadTrickster: http://pastebin.com/XdQsf4Du
2016-02-01T18:55:41Z DeadTrickster: also there is consing for lambda version too
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2016-02-01T18:56:37Z Bike: that code is so simple that the benchmarks are going to be kind of wonky.
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2016-02-01T18:56:57Z DeadTrickster: so for 99999999 cycles 32,816 bytes consed
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2016-02-01T18:57:30Z DeadTrickster: well at least times look similar anyway
2016-02-01T18:57:47Z Bike: so a ten thousandth of a byte for each call, so, noise.
2016-02-01T18:57:56Z Bike: profiling noise, i mean
2016-02-01T18:58:06Z Bike: calling them should be about as fast.
2016-02-01T18:58:14Z DeadTrickster: and since I can eliminate package pollution with unnecessary names I'll rewrite my codegen to produce lambdas
2016-02-01T18:58:24Z ggole_: Bytes consed (with a number that low) is probably something else
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2016-02-01T19:25:11Z jasom: is (intern "foo" some-package) permitted to be used as a constant value in defconstant?
2016-02-01T19:26:17Z pjb: Yes.
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2016-02-01T19:27:07Z nyef: jasom: It is, modulo stupid package tricks.
2016-02-01T19:27:07Z pjb: since (eq (intern "foo" some-package) (intern "foo" some-package)), even if one intern is done before saving a fasl file, and the other after loading a fasl file, in a different image!
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2016-02-01T19:54:58Z jasom: I have a slot that I initialize to non-nil but is failing later where it is nil.  What's the fastest way to find out who is modifying a slot?
2016-02-01T19:55:18Z jasom: nevermind
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2016-02-01T20:06:23Z francogrex: hi can I already use sicl in github? (the asd in the code folder)?
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2016-02-01T20:26:46Z holomorph: now that the captcha has changed, how might one go about programmatically upload a paste to paste.lisp.org?
2016-02-01T20:27:00Z holomorph: uploading*
2016-02-01T20:27:38Z holomorph: oh, i should probably send an email.
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2016-02-01T20:40:08Z prxq: holomorph: how about not uploading pastes programmatically to paste.lisp.org?
2016-02-01T20:40:23Z prxq: i mean, that's why it has a captcha.
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2016-02-01T21:04:39Z holomorph: prxq: you're right, there are better services
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2016-02-01T21:29:35Z shka: is there a legit way to call optima functions that are used to compile match?
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2016-02-01T21:44:54Z trinitr0n: .
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2016-02-01T21:50:17Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: Hello
2016-02-01T21:51:26Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: any one is here?
2016-02-01T21:51:38Z Bicyclidine: indeed
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2016-02-01T21:52:00Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: I have an idea to create edn library for cl
2016-02-01T21:52:53Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: Like this: https://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.edn-api.html
2016-02-01T21:52:55Z fe[nl]ix: Extinguished Distinguished Noumenals ?
2016-02-01T21:53:47Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: If I will create one any one will use it?
2016-02-01T21:53:53Z Xach_: yuval_dsfdsgdf: will you use it?
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2016-02-01T21:54:57Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: Maybe for other hobby projects in cl
2016-02-01T21:55:09Z Xach_: yuval_dsfdsgdf: that is at least one user
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2016-02-01T21:57:06Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: but I will not get feedback on my work If I will be the only user
2016-02-01T21:58:17Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: What do you use as a safe textual format for cl?
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2016-02-01T22:01:40Z yuval_dsfdsgdf: \bye
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2016-02-01T23:25:38Z ralt: hm
2016-02-01T23:25:47Z ralt: how do I get a reference in cffi?
2016-02-01T23:26:02Z ralt: e.g. I have a struct *foo, and I want to pass &foo
2016-02-01T23:26:09Z ralt: (so that I pass a **foo)
2016-02-01T23:26:32Z ralt: I have (with-foreign-object (foo 'foo)), but then I don't know how to reference it
2016-02-01T23:26:48Z Bicyclidine: if you have a pointer and want to pass a pointer to that pointer, you'll probably need to allocate one
2016-02-01T23:27:48Z ralt: Bicyclidine: I'm really talking about &foo in C... no allocation is required there, is it with cffi?
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2016-02-01T23:28:49Z Bicyclidine: in C it can use an address on the stack. I don't know that that would work well with lisp and the transition and all.
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2016-02-01T23:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: ralt: there's no & operator in cffi
2016-02-01T23:30:35Z ralt: fe[nl]ix: so, to have a pointer to pointer, I need to run (make-pointer (make-pointer))?
2016-02-01T23:31:20Z Bicyclidine: you probably need to heap allocate the pointer, yes, though probably not like that.
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2016-02-01T23:35:20Z fe[nl]ix: you allocate a pointer ptr, then you allocate foo, write foo to ptr then pass ptr
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2016-02-01T23:37:30Z fe[nl]ix: ralt: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KDC
2016-02-01T23:38:40Z ralt: thanks, makes sense
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2016-02-01T23:53:33Z jasom: you can use with-foreign-object to allocate an object with dynamic extent
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2016-02-02T01:00:00Z Logicista: yay I added function-scope lexical binding to my minimal symbolic lisp variant
2016-02-02T01:00:40Z Zhivago: Just like javascript :)
2016-02-02T01:01:03Z Logicista: is that a bad thing...
2016-02-02T01:01:55Z Logicista: though I do have (set! ..) which allows for dynamic binding
2016-02-02T01:03:05Z Logicista: hmm, now I think I've just confused myself
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2016-02-02T01:09:23Z Logicista: now things like (def! 'test-scope (fun (X) (begin (def! 'derp 'lol) (cons X derp)))) (test-scope 'X) don't pollute the callee's environment and now garbage collection actually collects garbage
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2016-02-02T01:13:33Z Logicista: I think next I will implement comments in the source code so I can write examples without going insane
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2016-02-02T04:35:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-02T04:44:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning
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2016-02-02T07:50:44Z jackdaniel: hello
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2016-02-02T08:41:15Z ralt: it's always fun to drop in ldb when playing in cffi. :-)
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2016-02-02T10:11:43Z knobo: what does it mean that a function is declared foldable (in sbcl)
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2016-02-02T10:17:41Z gabriel_laddel: Greetings all. I've written a 'interactive search' for command tables & packages in CLIM and would like to extend it to methods, generic functions, functions, boundp symbols and classes. 'interactive search' means that when you type a single character, the search results redisplay, and you can see the results as you go.
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2016-02-02T10:18:38Z prohobo: cool
2016-02-02T10:18:44Z gabriel_laddel: For packages & command tables there are obvious ways to access a whole list of them. M-. to list-all-packges and hashtable. For command tables, idem.
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2016-02-02T10:18:59Z gabriel_laddel: Is there a quick and easy way to get all classes?
2016-02-02T10:19:12Z gabriel_laddel: Or all GF or methods?=
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2016-02-02T10:19:47Z gabriel_laddel: I can certainly iterate over existing packages and derive the information, but it would be easier (and faster) to find a hashtable inside of SBCL that would give me this same information.
2016-02-02T10:19:55Z gabriel_laddel: So far, I've not found anything like that.
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2016-02-02T10:21:14Z gabriel_laddel: Oh, and types.
2016-02-02T10:21:19Z gabriel_laddel: I'd love to be able to query over types.
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2016-02-02T10:21:59Z p_l: gabriel_laddel: undocumented internal "global database"?
2016-02-02T10:22:31Z gabriel_laddel: p_l: you got it.
2016-02-02T10:22:46Z gabriel_laddel: We only have to consider SBCL btw.
2016-02-02T10:22:57Z gabriel_laddel: Other implementations are uninteresting for the time being.
2016-02-02T10:24:08Z moore33: gabriel_laddel: Is it too slow to call apropos-list?
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2016-02-02T10:25:53Z gabriel_laddel: moore33: I don't know inasmuch as filters (e.g., find-class for each returned symbol) are concerned.
2016-02-02T10:25:59Z gabriel_laddel: writing this code now...
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2016-02-02T10:26:39Z p_l: gabriel_laddel: well, iirc, in SBCL it's called "global database" :>
2016-02-02T10:26:50Z gabriel_laddel: p_l: oh.
2016-02-02T10:26:50Z moore33: moore33: You do need to try it, but I think it would be plenty fast to call apropos-list for each user input, even just a single character, and filter the results.
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2016-02-02T10:34:12Z gabriel_laddel: Additionally, if anyone knows how to modify the CLIM application focus on startup, I'd love to hear how.
2016-02-02T10:34:49Z gabriel_laddel: The way it currently works is that the last pane listed in the active :layout defined by define-application-frame gets focus.
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2016-02-02T10:35:42Z gabriel_laddel: I suspect it has to do with the application :top-level and which pane is being accept'd from but have not really investigated beyond that.
2016-02-02T10:35:52Z gabriel_laddel: Oh, and CLX has some related code that I couldn't make work...
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2016-02-02T10:38:13Z kenanb: can I dynamically upcast a class in CL? because I want cl-store to store the class as the superclass instance, ignoring subclasses properties
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2016-02-02T10:39:51Z kenanb: actually, what I really want to do is to ensure proper restoration of instances even if the subclass definition doesn't exist in the current running thread, because the subclass definitions come from plugins
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2016-02-02T10:42:56Z H4ns: kenanb: so you're really looking for ways to upcast the instances when you've restored them, right?
2016-02-02T10:42:58Z kenanb: so class BASE is guaranteed to be defined, but class EXTENSION-1 that subclasses it might or might not be available, in which case I want the stored instance of EXTENSION-1 to be restored as an instance of BASE, which will let the user to explicitly rebase the class to a loaded extension instead
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2016-02-02T10:43:19Z kenanb: H4ns: yes
2016-02-02T10:43:38Z H4ns: kenanb: you can use change-class to change the class of an existing instance.  that'd be the way
2016-02-02T10:43:48Z kenanb: but I am explaining the reasoning behind it in case what I really want can be achieved other ways that I fail to see
2016-02-02T10:44:09Z Zhivago: That sounds rather arse about face.
2016-02-02T10:44:30Z Zhivago: Why not just generate an EXTENSION-1 class as a boring subclass of BASE if it doesn't already exist.
2016-02-02T10:44:46Z kenanb: for example I just realized I can handle the condition arising from the absence of class definition in current thread
2016-02-02T10:44:51Z Zhivago: And then the user can supply one if they like, or redefine the class later.
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2016-02-02T10:47:08Z kenanb: Zhivago: IMHO that is the rather arse version because the class doesn't exists, if I generate a dummy subclass, that will make false assumptions about what the class should be doing
2016-02-02T10:47:37Z Zhivago: No more than it will in your scenario.
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2016-02-02T10:53:18Z kenanb: which subclass of BASE should be instanced is always determined dynamically by analyzing some user input, which is also recorded into a slot of instance. maybe the user enabled a different plugin with a different class definition, and if the user choses to rebase the instance, it will be dispatched to a different class that is defined in this other plugin now, so making it obvious that the instance is currently not dispatched on a
2016-02-02T10:53:18Z kenanb: useful subclass is better IMHO
2016-02-02T10:54:38Z jackdaniel: sounds overcomplicated o_O
2016-02-02T10:56:23Z jackdaniel: kenanb: I had lately somewhat similar problem, but I resolved it by creating a wrapper function xxx over generic function %xxx, where %xxx had extra argument specialized with eql
2016-02-02T10:56:27Z kenanb: Zhivago: I don't find your solution wrong, I just think I need a more failsafe approach in this scenario
2016-02-02T10:58:16Z jackdaniel: so adding new implementation was just adding method, where first parameter was specialized on unique symbol designating the extension
2016-02-02T10:59:56Z kenanb: jackdaniel: I actually used that technique in my extension system, but I fail to see how that applies to my current problem
2016-02-02T11:00:35Z jackdaniel: maybe I misunderstood you, but you want to be able to switch the implementation basing on some user-loaded extensions (?)
2016-02-02T11:03:58Z kenanb: jackdaniel: yes but that part is done, what I want is to complement that dynamic behaviour of instance creation in restoration of the already created instances using cl-store
2016-02-02T11:05:34Z jackdaniel: kenanb: yes, I think that I understood that part to. And you want to be able to store subclass of A, and then restore it as A (?)
2016-02-02T11:05:37Z kenanb: coming up with a failsafe restoration mechanism without making too many assumptions on what the user wants to do in the case that somehow the protocol created by extensions is not the same anymore
2016-02-02T11:06:20Z kenanb: jackdaniel: yes, using cl-store, to be specific, but actually I may switch if another library is better suited for that
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2016-02-02T11:07:18Z jackdaniel: changing class imposes loosing some information here, so why not just have one class? You'll loose extra information anyway. If it's only for specialization, then I can't see, what's wrong with providing extensions just as method definitions with eql specializer
2016-02-02T11:07:21Z kenanb: jackdaniel: in cl-store I can store class definitions too, so that might be a good way to do it, creating a local schema for the stored data by recording definitions, too
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2016-02-02T11:09:06Z jackdaniel: but probably I miss something. Sorry, I've got to go, good luck :-)
2016-02-02T11:11:43Z kenanb: because the fail scenario is not all that common, most of the times, the user will enable a superset of the plugins that are used in recorded sessions, so it will be pretty comfortable for the plugin writers to add slots by subclassing, but sometimes, the user will be dumb enough to disable a plugin that is actually used in the recorded session of the plugin, in which case I want it to fallback by upcasting, or the plugin author will
2016-02-02T11:11:43Z kenanb: change the definition in a backwards incompatible way, in which case I want the users to be able to restore their sessions with minimal data loss
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2016-02-02T11:12:44Z kenanb: jackdaniel: no, you have a point, and it is sufficient for most uses, I just try to make it as good as possible in this case. but thank you
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2016-02-02T11:15:27Z pareidolia: I found a remark of the developer of cl-async saying that unix domain sockets are supported, but I can't find any reference in the documentation. Am I supposed to get a FD myself and use Poll on it? Thanks!
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2016-02-02T11:21:50Z ralt: pareidolia: my guess is that it's about plugging in a libuv pipe in the socket stuff that cl-async provides
2016-02-02T11:21:57Z azx: what is lisp used for these days?
2016-02-02T11:22:26Z azx: right now i'm learning a lot of lisp for emacs, but i was wondering if it was really used for anything else
2016-02-02T11:22:36Z Cymew: azx: What are computers used for these days? There's your answer.
2016-02-02T11:23:17Z azx: Well you can write python or C or etc for computers, is lisp just a prefered language?
2016-02-02T11:23:18Z kenanb: azx: it is a general purpose language, it is used for almost anything
2016-02-02T11:23:23Z azx: there isn't a special use case?
2016-02-02T11:23:25Z Cymew: azx: Please use that this channel is also dedicated for Common Lisp. Emacs lisp is better discussed in #emacs or ##lisp
2016-02-02T11:23:41Z kenanb: azx: if you are talking about Common Lisp, emacs lisp is used for emacs.
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2016-02-02T11:24:05Z azx: i am aware, but i wanted to know if i should also learn common lisp
2016-02-02T11:24:32Z Cymew: azx: It will broaden your mind to know more languages, and approaches to problems.
2016-02-02T11:24:51Z azx: Okay, thank you for your help! :)
2016-02-02T11:24:57Z moore33: azx: Obviously we like it, and we use it to write many different kinds of things.
2016-02-02T11:25:19Z azx: i wonder why lisp isn't as big community wise
2016-02-02T11:25:24Z azx: as C or python etc
2016-02-02T11:25:34Z Cymew: Depends on where you look.
2016-02-02T11:25:37Z azx: maybe it is and i'm just ignorant
2016-02-02T11:27:00Z kenanb: azx: why should it be huge? there are many languages that are really useful but doesn't have huge communities, popularity of a language does not directly correlate with how useful or how good it is
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2016-02-02T11:28:11Z kenanb: azx: and looking at the amount of libraries written for CL, it is definitely not a small community
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2016-02-02T11:32:45Z kenanb: azx: if I thought it was already feasible enough to develop my mobile games with CL, I would develop them with CL, but it is currently not, so I write them in C++, if Blender supported CL as a scripting language, I would write the Blender plugins in CL, but it supports Python, so I write them in Python, if CL would run on every desktop OS out there flawlessly, I would write my asset manager in CL... wait a minute, it does, so I write it
2016-02-02T11:32:45Z kenanb: in CL.
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2016-02-02T11:34:46Z azx: Thank you for enlightening me to common lisp
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2016-02-02T11:35:21Z azx: I will probably learn it just to learn it's syntax and strengths
2016-02-02T11:36:05Z azx: and for understanding elisp in more detail
2016-02-02T11:36:25Z kenanb: azx: does it seem like a good language? does it suit as a solution to at least a percentage of your projects? then you can start learning it, and decide if you want to keep doing that along the way.
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2016-02-02T11:37:38Z azx: right now all it would be useful for is emacs and broadening my knowledge of programming
2016-02-02T11:37:43Z antoszka: azx: http://lispers.org/
2016-02-02T11:39:00Z kenanb: azx: mind you, Common Lisp and ELisp are different languages. Though ELisp has a layer a CL extension layer that tries to provide some of the functionality, they still are different languages.
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2016-02-02T11:39:43Z azx: i thought elisp was just an extension of lisp
2016-02-02T11:40:01Z kenanb: azx: you cannot copy a Common Lisp code snippet and expect it to work with ELisp evaluation command.
2016-02-02T11:40:12Z azx: i'm sure if i know lisp i'll be able to write better elisp functions no?
2016-02-02T11:40:48Z kenanb: azx: no it is not and extension of lisp, it is a scripting language developed for extending Emacs.
2016-02-02T11:41:17Z azx: elisp is even more reclused than lisp
2016-02-02T11:41:34Z azx: it's very hard to find good information other than the basic guide on it
2016-02-02T11:41:42Z azx: while lisp has lots of documentation
2016-02-02T11:41:49Z azx: but if they aren't related, then...
2016-02-02T11:42:05Z kenanb: azx: lisp is a language family, there are many dialects of it, Common Lisp is one, ELisp is another one, etc. They are similar to some extend, you can expect to mostly understand ELisp code with knowledge of Common Lisp, and vice versa. but they are incompatible.
2016-02-02T11:42:12Z azx: i mean, all the syntax etc are the same
2016-02-02T11:42:15Z azx: in both languages
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2016-02-02T11:43:09Z kenanb: azx: generally when we say lisp, we mean Common Lisp. but when someone says elisp is a lisp, they mean it is a lisp dialect
2016-02-02T11:43:09Z azx: yes i am aware they wouldn't work interchangeably
2016-02-02T11:44:01Z azx: If i knew lisp well it would make learning it's dialects even better
2016-02-02T11:44:48Z azx: that's my philosophy
2016-02-02T11:44:56Z azx: either way i'll get into lisp for the practice
2016-02-02T11:45:31Z azx: can i acomplish similar feats that python can acomplish?
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2016-02-02T11:45:44Z azx: could i make a script to grab a web address and return information from it
2016-02-02T11:45:49Z azx: using CL
2016-02-02T11:45:52Z kenanb: azx: you can learn Common Lisp, and apply that knowledge to ELisp, mostly by checking ELisp versions of similar functionality and make necessary revisions accordingly
2016-02-02T11:46:31Z kenanb: azx: yes there are libraries for that, but also there are books to answer those questions
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2016-02-02T11:48:13Z kenanb: azx: I am already answering questions that are answered on internet thousands of times, people here will not like it if I start flooding the channel for particular code snippets, so I suggest you just search for Practical Common Lisp
2016-02-02T11:48:40Z azx: okay thank you very very much for your help
2016-02-02T11:48:43Z azx: :D
2016-02-02T11:48:52Z azx: I will look into lisp for other use cases
2016-02-02T11:49:08Z kenanb: azx: no problem, good luck
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2016-02-02T12:25:16Z prohobo: kenanb: isn't that the nature of almost any question though?
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2016-02-02T12:49:12Z kenanb: prohobo: not really, being answered a thousand times is mostly the nature of the questions that are being asked a thousand times, they are asked so repetitively because they are either too entry level that inquirer even lacks the domain knowledge to search it properly, or they are not satisfied with the resulting answers so far, which usually clues that the question is an opinion oriented one
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2016-02-02T12:51:59Z kenanb: prohobo: you can't find a thousand answers regarding defmacro's &environment parameter
2016-02-02T12:52:37Z prohobo: hm true
2016-02-02T12:53:02Z prohobo: there should be a google school
2016-02-02T12:53:20Z prohobo: mandatory 2 years training in searching google
2016-02-02T12:53:33Z prohobo: like military service for engineers
2016-02-02T12:55:38Z moore33: So I'm using asdf 3.1... Any reason why it wouldn't be recognizing :pathname " " as "current directory?"
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2016-02-02T12:57:08Z moore33: Nevermind!
2016-02-02T12:57:48Z moore33: It's :pathname ""
2016-02-02T12:57:54Z wvvu: hello
2016-02-02T12:58:10Z kenanb: moore33: :D
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2016-02-02T12:58:18Z wvvu: in half a year is it possible to lear something?
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2016-02-02T13:04:02Z kenanb: wvvu: correct typing maybe :)
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2016-02-02T13:05:39Z wvvu: seriously
2016-02-02T13:05:41Z wvvu: plz
2016-02-02T13:06:17Z pareidol1a: missing context?
2016-02-02T13:06:43Z kenanb: wvvu: seriosly, we can only help if you be more specific than that
2016-02-02T13:06:45Z wvvu: context --> #lisp
2016-02-02T13:07:11Z wvvu: if I want to learn lisp language, how far will I be in half a year?
2016-02-02T13:07:43Z pareidol1a: You can read Practical Common Lisp in a week
2016-02-02T13:09:01Z wvvu: on linux which package is it?
2016-02-02T13:09:08Z pareidol1a is now known as pareidolia
2016-02-02T13:09:24Z pareidolia: Which package is what exactly?
2016-02-02T13:09:45Z pareidolia: Which linux, even
2016-02-02T13:10:13Z wvvu: --> Practical Common Lisp
2016-02-02T13:10:27Z pareidolia: It's a book, www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-02-02T13:10:35Z wvvu: oh a book.
2016-02-02T13:10:45Z kenanb: wvvu: yes, that is how you learn :)
2016-02-02T13:10:59Z pareidolia: What distro are you using? (Linux)
2016-02-02T13:11:10Z kenanb: wvvu: Lisp is an old language, it goes by the ancient methods of learning.
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2016-02-02T13:11:23Z wvvu: mm.. that's just reading though. I wanted to know about code.
2016-02-02T13:11:47Z pareidolia: Do you like koans?
2016-02-02T13:11:58Z moore33: 10000 hours and all that.
2016-02-02T13:12:43Z pareidolia: Install SBCL (apt-get install sbcl) and do some at https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2016-02-02T13:14:39Z wvvu: thanks
2016-02-02T13:16:09Z wvvu: is casting spells still relevant?
2016-02-02T13:16:57Z pareidolia: Not sure
2016-02-02T13:17:04Z kenanb: wvvu: Common Lisp is a standardized language, if it says it talks about Common Lisp, it is always relevant
2016-02-02T13:17:23Z pareidolia: I read Land of Lisp (same author) but I found practical common lispc to cover the language better
2016-02-02T13:18:13Z kenanb: wvvu: so yes, casting spells is relevant
2016-02-02T13:18:37Z pareidolia: And PCL does some nice bullet-time-spoon-bending macro stuff
2016-02-02T13:18:53Z dwchandler: wvvu: Practical Common Lisp is actually "Practical", and the first parts explain and then you build things.
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2016-02-02T13:19:12Z pareidolia: The meat is in the last chapters
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2016-02-02T13:20:47Z wvvu: aahh.. nice. casting spells is less intimidating with the cartoons.
2016-02-02T13:21:21Z moore33: I want the Lisp graphic novel.
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2016-02-02T13:24:36Z dwchandler: wvvu: oh, then watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
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2016-02-02T13:30:11Z MadaraUchiha: Hey guys, I'm reading Practical Common Lisp (total Lisp beginner, with some experience in OO and FP)
2016-02-02T13:30:20Z MadaraUchiha: I've come across this piece of code:
2016-02-02T13:30:30Z MadaraUchiha: (defmethod write-object progn ((,objectvar ,name) ,streamvar) .....
2016-02-02T13:30:38Z MadaraUchiha: What does the "progn" mean here?
2016-02-02T13:30:48Z MadaraUchiha: Link for context: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
2016-02-02T13:30:53Z H4ns: MadaraUchiha: it is a custom method combination.
2016-02-02T13:31:32Z MadaraUchiha: What does that mean?
2016-02-02T13:31:38Z H4ns: MadaraUchiha: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffd.htm
2016-02-02T13:32:38Z H4ns: MadaraUchiha: the method combination determines how the applicable methods in the invocation of a generic function are applied.  the standard method combination has primary/:before/:after/:around as method qualifiers.  That is described in PCL and in CLHS, too
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2016-02-02T13:32:51Z MadaraUchiha: Shouldn't that be defined on the DEFGENERIC?
2016-02-02T13:33:14Z MadaraUchiha: (defgeneric write-object (object stream)  (:method-combination progn :most-specific-last) ...
2016-02-02T13:33:55Z H4ns: yes.
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2016-02-02T13:34:15Z MadaraUchiha: So why does it also appear on the defmethod?
2016-02-02T13:35:24Z H4ns: MadaraUchiha: because the custom method combination must be specified in the method definition.
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2016-02-02T13:40:13Z didi``: C-c C-c in SLIME doesn't kill a running subprocess started by uiop:run-program. Any ideas how to make a keybind kill the running subprocess?
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2016-02-02T13:42:46Z didi``: I get the REPL back, but the subprocess continues to run in the background.
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2016-02-02T13:52:20Z ralt: didi``: is it maybe in C-c C-x C-t ?
2016-02-02T13:52:29Z ralt: (aka slime-list-threads or something similar)
2016-02-02T13:53:06Z didi``: ralt: Thank you. I will try it.
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2016-02-02T13:55:32Z didi``: ralt: As soon as I fix a new bug. :-P
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2016-02-02T14:07:25Z francogrex: hi this: (defparameter *x* 10) (defparameter *y* 20) (let ((temp (list (list *x* *y*)))) (loop for (a b) in temp do (print (list 'a 'b a b))))
2016-02-02T14:07:46Z francogrex: I would like it to print (list *x* *y* 10 20)
2016-02-02T14:08:15Z francogrex: so the variable symbol- is it possible?
2016-02-02T14:10:05Z didi``: francogrex: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/847e3504
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2016-02-02T14:10:39Z francogrex: didi``: GREAT
2016-02-02T14:10:44Z didi``: :-)
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2016-02-02T15:02:12Z prohobo: so im almost half way thru all the koans and i still know nothing about lisp
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2016-02-02T15:02:55Z mtl_: surely you know something
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2016-02-02T15:04:12Z prohobo: i know how to (print <whatever>) to get the answer
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2016-02-02T15:09:53Z didi``: Hum. While using SLIME, I wonder if I can use `ed' to open an image file on Emacs.
2016-02-02T15:10:22Z didi``: Something like (ed image-pathname).
2016-02-02T15:10:27Z Xach: didi``: i use ed that way in ccl and sbcl.
2016-02-02T15:10:35Z didi``: Xach: Noice.
2016-02-02T15:10:53Z Xach: http://lispblog.xach.com/post/129215925278/my-new-favorite-slimesbclccl-trick
2016-02-02T15:10:54Z didi``: Xach: I think I saw you mentioning it on lisp tips.
2016-02-02T15:11:07Z Xach: although i have not yet tried using an image as an argument
2016-02-02T15:11:24Z didi``: Xach: Cool. I will try it. Thank you.
2016-02-02T15:12:55Z didi``: My first swank file. ;-)
2016-02-02T15:13:26Z Xach: same
2016-02-02T15:13:43Z didi``: TIL SBCL caches `directory' evaluations in pathnames.
2016-02-02T15:13:51Z didi``: Interesting leak.
2016-02-02T15:14:17Z didi``: abstraction leak, I mean.
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2016-02-02T15:15:58Z prohobo: the lisp koans are slightly racist
2016-02-02T15:16:18Z prohobo: oh nvm
2016-02-02T15:16:26Z Xach: didi``: pathname objects are immutable, so it makes sense.
2016-02-02T15:16:38Z didi``: Xach: Ah. *nod*
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2016-02-02T15:16:47Z didi``: Uh, noice. It works!
2016-02-02T15:16:51Z Xach: didi``: cool
2016-02-02T15:17:01Z didi``: It opens a new frame tho. I would prefer a new window, but still.
2016-02-02T15:17:27Z didi``: Now I can do something like (process-image pathname :view t)
2016-02-02T15:17:35Z didi``: Kool
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2016-02-02T15:23:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do slot names interact with packages?
2016-02-02T15:23:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: For example, if I want to inherit from a class in another package and override the :initform of a slot, do I have to import the slot name as well?
2016-02-02T15:23:50Z ralt: :initform is a keyword and not a symbol, no?
2016-02-02T15:23:55Z didi``: Amazing. (when view (ed pathname))
2016-02-02T15:23:58Z didi`` <3 lisp
2016-02-02T15:24:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: sure, but the slotname is a symbol
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2016-02-02T15:24:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, I'd assume it's package-local
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2016-02-02T15:25:33Z moore33: fiddlerwoaroof: It's just a symbol, so yeah.
2016-02-02T15:26:02Z moore33: Other object systems play games using only the name of the symbol, but that's rather unpleasant.
2016-02-02T15:26:14Z fiddlerwoaroof:  Thanks, part of me wanted there to be a special exception for this and part of me wanted it to be predictable based on the rules for symbols.
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2016-02-02T15:27:28Z Xach: ralt: you don't have to import, but you have to refer to the slot name exactly somehow.
2016-02-02T15:28:01Z Xach: i.e. (defclass my-subclass (other:class) ((other:slot-name :initform ...)))))
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2016-02-02T15:28:19Z ralt: uh, I confused :initform with :initarg, sorry
2016-02-02T15:28:44Z dlowe: :initarg is an interesting one
2016-02-02T15:28:45Z Xach: or (defclass my-subclass (other:class) (...) (:default-initargs :slot-name 42)) ... which is why it is sometimes good to use non-keywords as initargs.
2016-02-02T15:29:27Z ralt: ah, never used a non-keyword for :initarg, didn't even consider it... it works?
2016-02-02T15:29:37Z Xach: yes.
2016-02-02T15:29:44Z Xach: pretty rare, though.
2016-02-02T15:29:52Z ralt: aka (make-instance 'foo bar "baz") with (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg bar)))?
2016-02-02T15:29:58Z Xach: yes.
2016-02-02T15:30:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It produces something like a "private" slot
2016-02-02T15:30:07Z ralt: pretty cool
2016-02-02T15:30:15Z Xach: Not private if the initarg is external.
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2016-02-02T15:30:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2016-02-02T15:30:54Z ralt: why is it rare?
2016-02-02T15:30:59Z moore33: ralt: (make-instance 'foo 'bar "baz") to be precise, but you get the idea.
2016-02-02T15:31:08Z ralt: right, sorry
2016-02-02T15:31:12Z ralt: thanks
2016-02-02T15:31:16Z moore33: ralt: Cuz people rarely do it that way.
2016-02-02T15:31:40Z moore33: They just don't think of it, it looks too strange, doesn't appear in books, etc.
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2016-02-02T15:33:07Z ralt: fair
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2016-02-02T15:33:57Z didi``: Uuuh. I can even customize which program I will call based on the pathname. This is getting better.
2016-02-02T15:34:05Z didi``: Better still.
2016-02-02T15:34:35Z didi``: It looks very much like Emacs.
2016-02-02T15:35:47Z ralt: didi``: it's still in its infancy, but you might like https://github.com/ralt/linit
2016-02-02T15:35:59Z didi``: ralt: Thank you. I will look into it.
2016-02-02T15:36:00Z ralt: (infancy = network not yet working.)
2016-02-02T15:36:15Z didi``: Ah. Nice.
2016-02-02T15:36:22Z didi``: ralt: u crazy
2016-02-02T15:36:26Z drmeister: In Clasp - when I'm in the COMMON-LISP-USER package and I print symbols in the COMMON-LISP package - they are always prefixed like COMMON-LISP:xxx  -  What should the printer be doing to suppress the COMMON-LISP package prefix?
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2016-02-02T15:36:50Z ralt: didi``: meh, it's not so crazy
2016-02-02T15:37:02Z didi``: ralt: I do enjoy crazy things, so keep on.
2016-02-02T15:37:02Z ralt: the only sad thing is that sbcl throws a lot of segfaults :(
2016-02-02T15:37:10Z didi``: :-(
2016-02-02T15:37:29Z ralt: the fun thing is that I'm seeing a lot of kernel panics
2016-02-02T15:38:18Z didi``: ralt: SBCL is picky regarding some things. I remember having "fun" using CFFI and GTK+ with float signal-something. I don't blame SBCL, but this is how it went.
2016-02-02T15:38:53Z ralt: didi``: no, it's just that sbcl has not being thought as running as pid 1.
2016-02-02T15:39:08Z ralt: just running (sb-impl::toplevel-repl nil) as PID 1 throws a lot of segfaults
2016-02-02T15:39:23Z ralt: (it still works for some reason, but dmesg is polluted)
2016-02-02T15:39:38Z didi``: Interesting.
2016-02-02T15:40:21Z ralt: drmeister: I'd say: special-case common-lisp?
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2016-02-02T15:40:51Z ralt: drmeister: or, when showing exported symbols, do you print the package prefix too?
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2016-02-02T15:41:35Z drmeister: ralt: Thanks for responding - I just realized that I've mischaracterized things a bit.   I have two ways of generating string representations of symbols and the more primitive one (for debugging) is the one that prefixes symbols with packages too often.
2016-02-02T15:41:54Z drmeister: Clasp's regular lisp printer works as expected.
2016-02-02T15:42:28Z ralt: as far as I can read in the spec, this is implementation-specific?
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2016-02-02T15:42:46Z ralt: ah, so you're just asking about "what should I do in clasp"
2016-02-02T15:43:37Z ralt: I'd prefix, personally, since you can have conflicting symbols in common-lisp-user and common-lisp
2016-02-02T15:43:56Z ralt: it might just be the small prefix though ("CL")
2016-02-02T15:44:15Z Xach: drmeister: the normal printer does not show the package prefix if the symbol in question is "accessible" in the current package *package*. and "accessible" means interned or inherited.
2016-02-02T15:44:55Z attila_lendvai: drmeister: I'm somewhat out of context here, but I very often found myself debugging package issues, which would have been obvious if the errors/warnings printed the packages. I changed several parts of sbcl to use print-symbol-with-prefix in its format strings.
2016-02-02T15:44:57Z drmeister: Xach: Thanks - I'm changing how my low-level printer works to reproduce that behavior.
2016-02-02T15:45:09Z Xach: things are special-cased when *package* is the keyword package.
2016-02-02T15:45:15Z Xach: in that case, a prefix is always printed.
2016-02-02T15:45:57Z drmeister: attila_lendvai: I've been there as well.
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2016-02-02T15:46:24Z drmeister: Right now I'm trying to reduce clutter in my debugging backtraces.
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2016-02-02T16:02:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it a good idea to reduce the complexity of primary methods by putting things like error-handling in :around methods?
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2016-02-02T16:05:44Z loke___: fiddlerwoaroof: Only if it makes sense for the function to act without error handling
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2016-02-02T16:07:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because a subclass might override :around?
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2016-02-02T16:10:13Z didi``: Cool. My first use of &rest, &key and &allow-other-keys in the same lambda list.
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2016-02-02T16:18:12Z ralt: didi``: maybe you need multiple functions? :)
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2016-02-02T16:20:04Z didi``: ralt: Yeap. I have a root one and others that call this root one with a required and a keyword argument.
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2016-02-02T16:43:24Z didi``: The lambda list of each of the functions but the root one: (input &rest keyword-args &key &allow-other-keys)
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2016-02-02T16:51:33Z moore33: didi``: The usual pattern is the reverse: wrapper functions take keyword arguments, the "root" takes only required arguments. The theory is that you can use inlining and compiler macros to bypass the keyword argument parsing.
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2016-02-02T16:55:28Z didi``: moore33: Hum. I stole this from PAIP. My reasoning is that I don't want to repeat &key in every wrapper lambda list.
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2016-02-02T16:58:33Z H4ns: this reminds me how amazed i was to learn that a caller can pass :allow-other-keys t to any function accepting keyword arguments to make it ignore unknown keyword arguments.
2016-02-02T16:58:48Z moore33: didi`` It's probably not important. We used to worry a lot about the expense of key word arguments.
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2016-02-02T16:59:03Z didi``: moore33: oic
2016-02-02T16:59:20Z H4ns: moore33: it is worth worrying in performance critical situations, i think.
2016-02-02T16:59:20Z didi``: H4ns: orly
2016-02-02T16:59:41Z H4ns: didi``: true story
2016-02-02T17:00:44Z didi``: Hehe. Nice.
2016-02-02T17:00:46Z didi``: (parse-integer "42" :allow-other-keys t :foo t) => 42
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2016-02-02T17:08:54Z didi``: I usually struggle when I have to decide between writing a macro `with-' or a function `call-with-'.
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2016-02-02T17:09:12Z didi``: I am in this situation again.
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2016-02-02T17:09:44Z moore33: didi``: Write the function, and the macro which expands into that function. win win ;)
2016-02-02T17:09:56Z didi``: moore33: uuuh
2016-02-02T17:10:03Z didi``: Noice.
2016-02-02T17:10:07Z moore33: I'm serious.
2016-02-02T17:10:20Z didi``: I thought so.
2016-02-02T17:10:47Z didi``: I will give it a shot.
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2016-02-02T17:11:48Z H4ns: didi``: http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html
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2016-02-02T17:12:21Z didi``: H4ns: Cool. Thank you. /me is reading it
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2016-02-02T17:13:53Z didi``: <3
2016-02-02T17:13:57Z didi``: It is settled.
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2016-02-02T17:24:42Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-02T17:25:04Z didi``: beach: o/
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2016-02-02T17:25:20Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach :)
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2016-02-02T17:26:26Z didi``: No more temp files hanging around. :-)
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2016-02-02T17:49:22Z dlowe: now write a macro that expands into a with- macro and a call-with- function
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2016-02-02T17:50:19Z emaczen: How can I get a lambda-list/specific argument types, given a function?
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2016-02-02T17:54:03Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: we have one here, and it's surprisingly complicated: http://hub.darcs.net/hu.dwim/hu.dwim.def/browse/test/with-macro.lisp
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2016-02-02T17:55:02Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: most of the complexity comes from dealing with the lamda lists, and with controlling which variables should be where (macro/function, e.g. where the user can supply a variable name for one of the args...)
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2016-02-02T17:55:18Z didi``: Macro expanding to macros? Turtles all the way.
2016-02-02T17:55:44Z dlowe: didi``: it's not really that weird.
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2016-02-02T17:56:22Z didi``: dlowe: I believe in you but it is beyond my current league.
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2016-02-02T18:04:37Z pareidolia: I've been wondering where the name "Hyperspec" came from
2016-02-02T18:04:40Z pareidolia: Anyone know?
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2016-02-02T18:05:11Z Bicyclidine: i always thought of it as a 90s invented buzzword based on "hypertext".
2016-02-02T18:05:32Z attila_lendvai: hyperlinked?
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2016-02-02T18:07:23Z pareidolia: Aaaah!
2016-02-02T18:07:36Z pareidolia: That's actually quite mundane by today's standards
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2016-02-02T18:08:03Z pareidolia: For me the name is one of the things that makes CL 'cool', having a HYPERSPEC
2016-02-02T18:08:27Z pareidolia: "Java Language Specification" doesn't have the same punch really
2016-02-02T18:08:50Z didi``: As things are moving to javascript calls, it might as well be a thing of the past.
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2016-02-02T18:48:05Z pjb: minion: memo for holomorph: you may want to use sprunge instead.  curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us < paste.lisp
2016-02-02T18:48:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell holomorph when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-02-02T18:48:05Z pjb:  
2016-02-02T18:51:09Z pjb: minion: memo for Logicista: if you have string literals or symbols, then you already have comments: (defun f () "this is a demo function" "first I'll print hello:" (print 'hello) "next I'll print a newline:" (terpri) "finally I return 42." 42)
2016-02-02T18:51:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Logicista when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-02T19:14:33Z jasom: any idea why writing 8192 bytes to a string-output-stream would cause sbcl to try and allocate 536870944 bytes?
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2016-02-02T19:15:53Z akkad: sounds like typical sbcl
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2016-02-02T19:17:26Z Xach: bytes?
2016-02-02T19:17:51Z jasom: Xach: okay characters
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2016-02-02T19:18:43Z Xach does not know
2016-02-02T19:19:00Z mordocai: Truthfully sounds like a good #sbcl question, even though there are less people there
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2016-02-02T19:21:06Z akkad: were you at the edge of free heap? and that allocation required a new allocation?
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2016-02-02T19:23:33Z Bicyclidine: if i write about four times that it starts allocating a few dozen megabytes for bignums for some reason, but i don't see anything that huge.
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2016-02-02T19:26:28Z jasom found the bug
2016-02-02T19:26:42Z Bicyclidine: in sbcl?
2016-02-02T19:26:53Z jasom: for some reason the backtrace was showing the offset as being 0, but it was actually writing several GB 8192 bytes at a time
2016-02-02T19:26:56Z jasom: no in my coe
2016-02-02T19:27:01Z jasom: in my code
2016-02-02T19:27:08Z Bicyclidine: i see.
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2016-02-02T19:27:50Z jasom: I knew it was writing in 8192 byte chunks, but the offset was printing out as zero, so the debugger was less than helpful
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2016-02-02T20:06:00Z warweasle: Is there a logic library besides a prolog based system.
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2016-02-02T20:07:21Z attila_lendvai: warweasle: screamer is a backtracking engine, https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer
2016-02-02T20:07:53Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: I never thought of that for logic programming.
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2016-02-02T20:08:35Z attila_lendvai: warweasle: I'm not sure it applies, but I think it's close enough to mention
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2016-02-02T20:12:08Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: The github page says it's > prolog.
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2016-02-02T20:13:01Z attila_lendvai: that's what I thought, but I never used it, nor actually written anything in prolog, so I'm cautious with whatever I think I know about them... :)
2016-02-02T20:17:10Z dwchandler: warweasle: also, miniKanren
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2016-02-02T20:36:02Z phoe_krk: Does Common Lisp have anything like Erlang's concurrency and message passing through its ! operator?
2016-02-02T20:36:05Z phoe_krk: Or is it to be written yet?
2016-02-02T20:36:27Z jasom: phoe_krk: lparallel is a CPS library for lisp
2016-02-02T20:36:33Z jasom: er CSP
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2016-02-02T20:40:24Z jasom: actually lparallel is something different.  I'm now trying to remember which one implemented CSP
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2016-02-02T20:42:48Z jasom: hmm, there's chanl, but it's strictly one process per thread, which makes threads rather heavyweight.  There's a green-threads library written on top of cl-cont that has message passing, but I don't know how well tested it is
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2016-02-02T20:45:25Z ralt: jasom: maybe you're thinking about cl-async?
2016-02-02T20:45:32Z ralt: which is basically a layer over libuv
2016-02-02T20:45:49Z jasom: ralt: I was thinking of ChanL I think
2016-02-02T20:46:14Z ralt: lparallel does have the concept of channels over tasks
2016-02-02T20:46:37Z jasom: ralt: yes, but tasks must be bounded in execution in order for the scheduling to work, right?
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2016-02-02T20:47:20Z jasom: wheras ChanL is one OS thread for each task, so you do Erlang style concurrency, just less efficiently
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2016-02-02T20:48:58Z jasom has considered forking an implementation to have green threads and non-blocking I/O, but that's a lot of digging into the guts, particularly if you want to schedule over more than 1 OS thread.
2016-02-02T20:50:18Z jasom: actually calispel looks really nice, though I'd never seen ti before
2016-02-02T20:51:05Z jasom: the operations are even called ? and ! for those who are familiar with it
2016-02-02T20:51:23Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: calispel
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2016-02-02T20:54:54Z akkad: m2n threads?
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2016-02-02T21:09:13Z blackwolf: I've got a `labels' form where one of the locals refers to another local via `(apply #'foo (list x))'.  sbcl is claiming the function foo is unused and deleting it.  I can change the `apply' to something like `(foo (first x) (second x) blahblah)' but that seems inelegant.  is there a better way?
2016-02-02T21:10:54Z blackwolf: I would have thought that the reference to the function via #'foo would have been enough to keep the compiler from optimizing that form away.
2016-02-02T21:11:06Z Bicyclidine: It is. Can I see the code?
2016-02-02T21:12:36Z blackwolf: I can't paste it directly, it's work-related.
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2016-02-02T21:12:59Z moore33: blackwolf: Are you sure you didn't say (apply 'foo...)?
2016-02-02T21:13:05Z blackwolf: yup
2016-02-02T21:13:58Z moore33: Is the result actually wrong?
2016-02-02T21:14:17Z Bicyclidine: if you have (apply #'foo ...) and the foo function is getting eliminated then something odd is happening (for example, if one of the argument forms always errors, or the function with the apply #'foo is itself eliminated)
2016-02-02T21:14:38Z moore33: The apply can be optimized out, and then perhaps the function is inlined...
2016-02-02T21:15:48Z blackwolf: actually, it's not going to be an issue.  there are two cases where that function should be called, one via apply, the other via a straight call.  I forgot the other call, so it won't be optimized out.  I'm still surprised by sbcl's behavior, though.  I'll see if I can reproduce it in a stripped-down example.
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2016-02-02T21:21:16Z blackwolf: hrmm ... worked as expected in a stripped-down test.  I must have something else hosed in the code.
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2016-02-02T21:41:19Z luis is slightly pissed off with ASDF
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2016-02-02T21:41:41Z luis: I just wanted to let that off my chest
2016-02-02T21:41:52Z luis: Thanks for listening.
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2016-02-02T21:49:00Z attila_lendvai: luis: that happens... a couple of days ago I debugged a problem halfway and wrote it up in an emal when I realized that it's been fixed already a few days ago.
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2016-02-02T21:49:26Z antonv: how to login into gitlab.common-lisp.net ?
2016-02-02T21:49:35Z attila_lendvai: luis: I assume you've already solved the headache then...?
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2016-02-02T21:50:47Z luis: attila_lendvai: I'm upgrading my old SBCL to see if that helps. Anyway, I think I've fixed the CFFI issue. DO-TESTS is getting stuck in an infinite loop grovelling things for some reason.
2016-02-02T21:51:13Z luis: I'm not really sure if it's ASDF's fault, but it's such an easy target. ;-)
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2016-02-02T21:52:11Z attila_lendvai: luis: yeah, check that first. even git clone an asdf and (require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :asdf) from your .sbclrc to force an upgrade
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2016-02-02T21:56:20Z luis: yep, upgrading SBCL/ASDF helped.
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2016-02-02T22:03:05Z luis: attila_lendvai: I think those last two tests we wrote are broken.
2016-02-02T22:03:28Z luis: attila_lendvai: does (setf (acc-pair aggregate-struct) <a-point-to-struct>) make sense?
2016-02-02T22:04:12Z luis: shouldn't it be (setf (acc-pair aggregate-struct) <a-value-that-can-be-converted-to-a-struct>)?
2016-02-02T22:04:21Z attila_lendvai: luis: see the last feature I wrote here: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/wiki/Type-propagation-proposal#features-that-would-be-nice-to-have
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2016-02-02T22:06:29Z attila_lendvai: luis: re your question: not sure. I've actually recorded this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1528719
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2016-02-02T22:09:56Z luis: I guess we can support both ways of doing things.
2016-02-02T22:10:53Z attila_lendvai: we can, but runtime decisions are not possible because on some platforms foreign-pointer is typep fixnum
2016-02-02T22:11:12Z luis: darn.
2016-02-02T22:11:35Z attila_lendvai: there's a reason a started writing that wiki page about type inference...
2016-02-02T22:12:08Z attila_lendvai: I'm also thinking about adding support to the c2ffi generator to wrap C struct pointers into lisp types for runtime type checking
2016-02-02T22:12:12Z luis: well, we could rely on people not wanting to convert fixnums into aggregate structs :)
2016-02-02T22:12:48Z attila_lendvai: yeah, that's a constraint not too hard to live with... :)
2016-02-02T22:13:05Z luis: attila_lendvai: define-c-struct-wrapper does some of that doesn't it?
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2016-02-02T22:14:26Z pillton: You could make your own pointer class which is subclassed for the different types.
2016-02-02T22:14:39Z attila_lendvai: luis: not sure. I was thinking of something simpler, just a struct/class with one slot called foreign-pointer
2016-02-02T22:15:52Z luis: attila_lendvai: I see that DEFINE-C-STRUCT-WRAPPER only goes in one direction too.
2016-02-02T22:16:21Z luis: Luís-from-9-years-ago clearly didn't think it through. ;-)
2016-02-02T22:16:46Z luis: I suppose that's all he needed back then.
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2016-02-02T22:17:44Z attila_lendvai: wow, 9 years already... I also have these weird flashbacks when I look at some or my commit dates... :)
2016-02-02T22:18:19Z ralt: I wasn't even born 9 years ago
2016-02-02T22:18:48Z luis chuckles
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2016-02-02T22:19:57Z |3b|: if you are cleaning/up fixing cffi, might be nice to separate the 3 or so ways type translation stuff is used (translating to/from lisp values, moving into/out of foreign memory, and filtering values (for example erroring on return = or /= 0))
2016-02-02T22:20:46Z |3b|: i think those all being combined (and used in existing code) was why i gave up on fixing my problems with fsbv calls
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2016-02-02T22:21:20Z attila_lendvai: I've recently read a retro article about an Amiga game (Reunion) that was my first official programming job, released 1994... reading that shit, and watching the videos gave me the weirdest flashbacks... :)
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2016-02-02T22:22:20Z luis: |3b|: the type system does seem to need an overhaul... What do you mean by separating?
2016-02-02T22:22:25Z attila_lendvai: yeah, that forest of translate-, convert-, etc... methods confused me, too
2016-02-02T22:23:26Z attila_lendvai: I suggest a naming convention along the lines translate-to-foreign, translate-to-foreign/form
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2016-02-02T22:24:50Z |3b|: luis: i mean that the users care about those 3 things, and the internals care about the first 2, which conflicts with the third
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2016-02-02T22:26:12Z |3b|: actually, i guess users mostly don't care about the 2nd
2016-02-02T22:26:46Z |3b|: no, all 3...getting confused about which users i'm talking about
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2016-02-02T22:28:02Z |3b|: but i think the problem was that there isn't a clean way to use the existing API internally so that it can default to doing something sane without every possible user knowing all of the details and implementing all of them
2016-02-02T22:28:05Z |3b|: or something like that
2016-02-02T22:28:34Z |3b| is a bit sick so not thinking completely clearly in addition to not having thought about this stuff in a few months
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2016-02-02T22:29:49Z luis: |3b|: I see what you mean. I guess it wasn't clear at the time how to separate concerns more cleanly and it still isn't for me.
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2016-02-02T22:30:44Z |3b|: luis: well, at the time there wasn't the "translate to/from foreign memory" concern
2016-02-02T22:31:16Z luis: right. That wasn't integrated as cleanly as it should have been.
2016-02-02T22:31:40Z |3b|: yeah, but i'm not sure it could have been
2016-02-02T22:31:42Z attila_lendvai: that was added solely for fsbv?
2016-02-02T22:32:13Z luis: It was motivated by fsbv yeah, and it's probably the only thing that uses it.
2016-02-02T22:32:43Z |3b|: since the existing API doesn't really provide enough information for the internals to decide what to do with the values to put it into a foreign struct
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2016-02-02T22:33:31Z luis: how so?
2016-02-02T22:34:05Z |3b|: for example i think i've see things like type translations that basically just do (coerce lisp-value 'single-float), while a string translation is actually doing allocation etc
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2016-02-02T22:34:28Z |3b|: but internally they look the same and specialize the same methods
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2016-02-02T22:35:55Z |3b|: or in the other direction, the example of translating return-code errors into lisp errors (which i like to use) expects to just see a lisp value, while the string translator expects to see a foreign pointer, but both use the same API
2016-02-02T22:37:56Z attila_lendvai: another example is the recent issue, where the foreign-slot is available in foreign-struct-slot-set-form, but the struct is unreachable
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2016-02-02T22:39:03Z luis: |3b|: I guess the issue there is that some types refer to heap-allocated memory others to immediate/stack-allocated values, maybe?
2016-02-02T22:39:47Z |3b|: i think that is part of it, and also that some types are valid for both lisp-side and c-side of cffi's type translation (like word-sized integers, floats, etc)
2016-02-02T22:40:21Z didi: Dang. I keep exhausting the heap in SBCL.
2016-02-02T22:41:08Z luis: |3b|: what do you mean by "valid"?
2016-02-02T22:41:09Z phoe_krk: didi: game over.
2016-02-02T22:41:14Z didi: phoe_krk: Heh.
2016-02-02T22:41:17Z didi: That's right.
2016-02-02T22:41:32Z phoe_krk: Launch it with a bigger heap?
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2016-02-02T22:42:03Z didi: I am already doing --dynamic-space-size 4096 --control-stack-size 1024
2016-02-02T22:42:12Z didi: I guess I should increase it further.
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2016-02-02T22:42:49Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: it would help a lot if you could draft up your thoughts/criticisms as a wiki page on github...
2016-02-02T22:43:39Z |3b|: attila_lendvai: yeah, unfortunately it seems i waited too long and don't actually remember them in enough detail :/
2016-02-02T22:44:22Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: well, whatever you're writing here half-sick already sounds quite valuable to me
2016-02-02T22:45:03Z attila_lendvai: I already opened two pages/topics: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/wiki
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2016-02-02T22:45:59Z |3b|: luis: accepted as both input and output of the translation
2016-02-02T22:46:29Z |3b|: you can return a single-float when translating to foreign, and return the same float when translating from foreign
2016-02-02T22:46:32Z luis: in the past enlightenment was often reached by repeatedly bashing at the type system. Perhaps the new "translate to/from foreign memory" stuff just needs more bashing. :)
2016-02-02T22:46:45Z |3b|: possibly
2016-02-02T22:46:54Z attila_lendvai smells the beginning of a new major version of CFFI in the air... :)
2016-02-02T22:47:12Z |3b|: though i think the problem of structs being specified to not expand aggregate members is harder to bash on :p
2016-02-02T22:47:27Z luis: |3b|: right, because we're not actually converting to C in the case of builtin types, we're actually converting to the host's FFI
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2016-02-02T22:47:34Z |3b|: right
2016-02-02T22:47:53Z luis: that certainly adds to the confusion.
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2016-02-02T22:49:20Z |3b| thinks (or at least thought at one point) there could be an API that handled all the translation with much less user work if it was split up better
2016-02-02T22:49:25Z luis: fe[nl]ix: around?
2016-02-02T22:49:58Z |3b|: while with the current API, the various internal uses couldn't reliably delegate to eachother so the user had to always define all of the translations
2016-02-02T22:50:37Z |3b|: leading to fun things like https://github.com/3b/3b-ovr/blob/master/util.lisp#L3
2016-02-02T22:50:54Z luis: right, that's certainly badly done currently. Implementing translate-into-foreign-memory should automatically take care of translate-to-foreign.
2016-02-02T22:51:08Z luis: I /feel/ that should be fixable.
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2016-02-02T22:51:49Z luis: |3b|: that is... a testament to the current shortcomings of translate-into-foreign-memory :)
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2016-02-02T22:53:07Z luis: Anyway, on a brighter note.
2016-02-02T22:53:20Z luis: Have you guys seen the new slime-macrostep contrib? :)
2016-02-02T22:53:30Z luis: I think it's pretty neat.
2016-02-02T22:53:46Z |3b| hassn't seen much of anything code-related in months :(
2016-02-02T22:54:17Z fe[nl]ix: luis: yes
2016-02-02T22:55:05Z luis: fe[nl]ix: misc-types.sizeof.bool is failing for me. It seems that on my Mac _Bool is 1-byte large.
2016-02-02T22:55:21Z fe[nl]ix: a recent one ?
2016-02-02T22:55:30Z luis: El Capitan, I guess.
2016-02-02T22:55:35Z fe[nl]ix: I wouldn't be surprised if they had fixed it finally
2016-02-02T22:55:37Z luis: or whatever it's called.
2016-02-02T22:55:42Z fe[nl]ix: makes sense
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2016-02-02T22:56:22Z fe[nl]ix: luis: I guess we need more conditionals
2016-02-02T22:56:47Z attila_lendvai: oh, and there's also the confusion with bools... C also has bool, and so does sbcl's FFI, but one cannot reach C bool through CFFI, because it defines its own
2016-02-02T22:57:32Z attila_lendvai: cffi-sbcl.lisp is missing a (:bool               boolean) entry in its define-type-mapping
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2016-02-02T22:58:07Z attila_lendvai: (sb-alien:alien-size cl:boolean) => 64, (cffi:foreign-type-size :bool) => 1
2016-02-02T22:58:35Z luis: erm. But sizeof(_Bool) => 1.
2016-02-02T22:59:15Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: what do you mean "one cannot reach C bool" ?
2016-02-02T22:59:20Z luis: fe[nl]ix: not sure how to test for El Capitan :-/
2016-02-02T22:59:37Z luis: attila_lendvai: maybe SBCL's boolean is actually like CFFI's :boolean?
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2016-02-02T22:59:54Z luis: attila_lendvai: which is a typedef for :int that converts 0 to nil and everything else to t?
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2016-02-02T23:00:19Z attila_lendvai: yeah, I was confused. _Bool is 1 here (linux x64), so sbcl defines something weird...
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2016-02-02T23:00:31Z fe[nl]ix: luis: better to ignore the host types
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2016-02-02T23:01:08Z luis: fe[nl]ix: you're preaching to the choir!
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2016-02-02T23:01:36Z luis: fe[nl]ix: any suggestion how to fix :bool on darwin? I'm inclined to unconditionally typedef it to :char and call it a day. :-/
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2016-02-02T23:02:47Z fe[nl]ix: luis: obviously CFFI needs a ./configure
2016-02-02T23:03:01Z luis: Go home, you're drunk. :)
2016-02-02T23:03:08Z attila_lendvai screams up from the pain
2016-02-02T23:03:11Z pillton: Nooo.
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2016-02-02T23:05:48Z fe[nl]ix: luis: I think CFFI should present a uniform ABI
2016-02-02T23:05:55Z fe[nl]ix: and ignore the host types
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2016-02-02T23:07:22Z attila_lendvai: I'm confused, how can it ignore the host types? if I want to write an FFI for a C lib that uses _Bool, then I will need to tell CFFI to use whatever is _Bool on that platform... no?
2016-02-02T23:07:23Z luis: but, but, then we'd have to skip the host's FFI altogether (host=Lisp right?)
2016-02-02T23:08:38Z luis: I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
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2016-02-02T23:09:37Z fe[nl]ix: luis: yes, the host Lisp
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2016-02-02T23:12:28Z fe[nl]ix: luis: instead of :unsigned-long-long mapping onto '(unsigned long long) or whatever it was on LW, map it onto :uint64
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2016-02-02T23:12:55Z fe[nl]ix: i.e. implement the platform ABI directly, instead of relying on the host Lisp to do right
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2016-02-02T23:16:01Z luis: mapping names does not really count as implementing an ABI directly :)
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2016-02-02T23:18:20Z fe[nl]ix: it does, it means choosing the size and signedness directly
2016-02-02T23:19:37Z luis: Well, we test in suite if the Lisp got that part right anyway, so, not that big of a deal is it?
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2016-02-02T23:20:20Z luis: It's not really fun to maintain those mappings, so I'm happy with piggy-backing on the host Lisp.
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2016-02-02T23:22:36Z luis: Anyway...
2016-02-02T23:22:41Z luis: How about that slime-macrostep?
2016-02-02T23:23:32Z attila_lendvai: luis: what does it do?
2016-02-02T23:24:08Z attila_lendvai: https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly-macrostep
2016-02-02T23:24:10Z luis: It expands macros inline in a stepper-like fashin.
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2016-02-02T23:24:39Z luis: Oh, there's an animation in that fork.
2016-02-02T23:24:43Z luis: Well, there you go.
2016-02-02T23:24:51Z luis: It does what you see in that animation.
2016-02-02T23:25:35Z attila_lendvai complains to himself for asking while it took 30 secs to find it out
2016-02-02T23:26:13Z attila_lendvai: looks nice, but it's one more keyboard shortcut to remember... :)
2016-02-02T23:26:26Z attila_lendvai: luis: any chance of merging sly and slime?
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2016-02-02T23:28:33Z luis: attila_lendvai: merging bits of sly into slime is definitely on the cards, time permitting.
2016-02-02T23:28:47Z luis: *in the cards
2016-02-02T23:29:25Z attila_lendvai: all the merging, both ways, is such a waste of efforts...
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2016-02-02T23:29:33Z luis: I agree.
2016-02-02T23:29:53Z luis: But if João's happier this way there's not much we can do.
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2016-02-02T23:31:15Z luis: I bet renaming slime- prefixes to sly- feels like a million dollars. ;-)
2016-02-02T23:31:16Z attila_lendvai: well, he was when Helmut was bouncing almost everything... although João is rather trigger happy when it comes to forking, so I never know... :) do you guys meet IRL, like working at the same place?
2016-02-02T23:31:41Z luis: We sit in front of each other.
2016-02-02T23:31:47Z luis: It's really quite silly.
2016-02-02T23:31:59Z luis: heh
2016-02-02T23:32:04Z attila_lendvai: heh :) then I remembered well :)
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2016-02-02T23:33:19Z attila_lendvai: damn you two... you sit in front of each other, and maintain two forks of the same project you both are maintainers of?! :)
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2016-02-02T23:33:53Z attila_lendvai: what do you think, you'll live forever!? :)
2016-02-02T23:34:35Z luis: Hey, I didn't fork anything.
2016-02-02T23:35:16Z attila_lendvai: luis: fair enough. what's João's nick on irc then? :)
2016-02-02T23:35:34Z luis: capitaomorte
2016-02-02T23:36:03Z luis: I believe he's on vacation this week.
2016-02-02T23:36:43Z attila_lendvai: damn, he's hiding...! well then, deliver the mood to him when you see him again! :)
2016-02-02T23:37:30Z attila_lendvai: also, what's up with fiasco? CFFI could use a better test framework. rt is just painful...
2016-02-02T23:37:49Z attila_lendvai: are you using it, as in using the master branch for testing regularly?
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2016-02-02T23:40:34Z luis: attila_lendvai: I've poked him about it.
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2016-02-02T23:44:41Z luis: attila_lendvai: we do use Fiasco at work.
2016-02-02T23:45:22Z luis: RT is indeed somewhat painful. ;-)
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2016-02-02T23:57:32Z didi: TIL `room'
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2016-02-03T00:01:30Z luis: didi: was it useful?
2016-02-03T00:02:04Z didi: luis: I think so.
2016-02-03T00:02:20Z didi: Let me know where my memory is going.
2016-02-03T00:02:44Z didi: Tho I don't know why the GC isn't collecting.
2016-02-03T00:05:21Z luis: didi: if you're lucky you can figure it out by thinking hard. If not, I think attila_lendvai's got a neat tool for figuring out who's holding on to a given object.
2016-02-03T00:06:20Z attila_lendvai: didi: this, but it's rather rough: http://hub.darcs.net/hu.dwim/hu.dwim.debug/browse/source/path-to-root.lisp
2016-02-03T00:06:20Z didi: luis: I think it is just "laziness" by the GC.
2016-02-03T00:06:24Z emaczen: I added hunchentoot to my dependencies and now I am getting a "babel-encodings" package missing condition
2016-02-03T00:06:29Z didi: attila_lendvai: Thank you.
2016-02-03T00:07:00Z attila_lendvai: didi: and it's probably bitrotten, patches are welcome! :)
2016-02-03T00:07:26Z didi: :-)
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2016-02-03T00:09:47Z didi: (sb-ext:gc :full t) => from "2,577,237,216 bytes." to "97,373,696 bytes."
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2016-02-03T00:12:30Z emaczen: How can I trace through a package missing condition?
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2016-02-03T00:18:11Z didi: My problem is: the heap is exhausting even tho there would be free space if the GC collected.
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2016-02-03T00:20:27Z attila_lendvai: didi: sbcl has a copying gc, in the worst case you may need twice the memory to collect. sometimes you can avoid issues by triggering a gc by hand more often than it automatically gets triggered. IIRC no need for :full t
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2016-02-03T00:23:33Z Bike: set up a handler on storage-condition to automatically trigger a gc. i kind of want to know if that actually works
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2016-02-03T00:30:37Z attila_lendvai: Bike: s-c is thrown *after* the GC couldn't make enough room
2016-02-03T00:31:17Z Bike: didi's descripion is wrong, then
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2016-02-03T00:42:30Z didi: Bike: I don't think so. But what do I know?
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2016-02-03T00:49:34Z noob_: Is there someone here happy to help a noob? (With closures etc.)
2016-02-03T00:49:55Z didi: noob_: Ask.
2016-02-03T00:50:21Z noob_: I am running in http://learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/
2016-02-03T00:50:55Z noob_: Is there a single expression which returns the successive higher integer upon each execution?
2016-02-03T00:51:42Z didi: noob_: `1+'?
2016-02-03T00:51:56Z didi: Oh, you want a counter.
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2016-02-03T00:52:12Z noob_: Yes please :)
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2016-02-03T00:52:54Z Bike: well, you want a counter closure, so it should have one variable of state (the current number) and each run it should change it. you can write that out, probably.
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2016-02-03T00:53:33Z didi: noob_: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/4613ba05
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2016-02-03T00:55:06Z noob_: Thanks. That expression does not itself return the successive higher integer upon each execution. Perhaps no such expression is possible?
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2016-02-03T00:55:39Z Zhivago: (incf *x*) would, assuming (defvar *x* 0), but that doesn't involve closures.
2016-02-03T00:56:01Z Zhivago: If you're using closures, then rather than an expression, you're generating a function and then calling it.
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2016-02-03T00:56:25Z noob_: OK, then how about not using closures?
2016-02-03T00:56:34Z Zhivago: As I showed.
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2016-02-03T00:57:00Z noob_: Z I don't see just a single expression there.
2016-02-03T00:57:13Z Zhivago: (incf *x*) is a single expression.
2016-02-03T00:57:26Z Bike: you need one to set it up, yeah. Why is that a problem?
2016-02-03T00:57:40Z noob_: Z, sure, but is not sufficient.
2016-02-03T00:57:46Z Zhivago: For?
2016-02-03T00:58:06Z noob_: Z, for "a single expression which returns the successive higher integer upon each execution"
2016-02-03T00:58:15Z Zhivago: In what regard?
2016-02-03T00:58:24Z Bike: why do you want that?
2016-02-03T00:58:26Z noob_: It requires a setup expression.
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2016-02-03T00:58:49Z Bike: you could do something stupid, like (if (boundp '*x*) (incf *x*) (defvar *x* 0)).
2016-02-03T00:58:49Z |3b|: (symbol-value (defparameter *x* (if (boundp '*x*) (1+ *x*) 0))) ?
2016-02-03T00:58:59Z Zhivago: (progn (defvar *x* 0) (incf *x*)) <- there you go.
2016-02-03T00:59:07Z Bike: ohhhhhh got beaten to it
2016-02-03T00:59:36Z noob_: Z, thanks - works here.
2016-02-03T00:59:52Z Zhivago: Please note that it is a very stupid thing to do.
2016-02-03T01:00:24Z noob_: Why, please?
2016-02-03T01:00:30Z |3b|: depending on your definition of "expression", create a closure at READ time
2016-02-03T01:00:43Z Bike: because there is no reason for the restriction you are asking for.
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2016-02-03T01:02:20Z Zhivago: 3b: Is that guaranteed to work well with compile-file, etc?
2016-02-03T01:03:13Z |3b|: probably not, but i wasn't really intending to provide "good" answers, since the "good" answer was already rejected
2016-02-03T01:03:43Z noob_: Z, why is it stupid, please?
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2016-02-03T01:04:03Z |3b|: noob_: because it makes the code more complicated for no reason
2016-02-03T01:04:24Z |3b|: and is fragile, not usable everywhere, etc
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2016-02-03T01:04:38Z |3b|: unlike just storing a closure in a variable
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2016-02-03T01:07:53Z Zhivago: Well, I'd personally use a variable for a counter like this.
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2016-02-03T01:08:06Z Zhivago: Closures have the problem of hiding stuff.
2016-02-03T01:08:22Z didi: Sneaky closures.
2016-02-03T01:08:46Z noob_: Z, I'd still be interested in your answer.
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2016-02-03T01:09:48Z didi: One might do (lambda (&optional show) (if show init (incf init)))
2016-02-03T01:09:48Z |3b|: yeah, incrementing a variable explicitly is even better
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2016-02-03T01:18:45Z noob_: 3b, re "because it makes the code more complicated for no reason", can you show me the simpler version?
2016-02-03T01:19:16Z Zhivago: noob: Firstly, my example attempts to define a variable each time.
2016-02-03T01:19:33Z Zhivago: noob: Secondly, it's just stupid to have this 'single expression' restriction.
2016-02-03T01:20:09Z Zhivago: It's like saying 'without using the letter "e"'. Why would any sane person have such a restriction?
2016-02-03T01:21:53Z noob_: "my example attempts to define a variable each time" I see no problem there. defvar is working as designed.
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2016-02-03T01:22:33Z noob_: "Secondly, it's just stupid to have this 'single expression' restriction." Does allowing more expressions afford a better solution?
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2016-02-03T01:24:18Z Zhivago: Yes. See above.
2016-02-03T01:27:19Z noob_: Z, setup (defvar *x* 0) then execution (incf *x*)?
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2016-02-03T01:30:36Z Zhivago: That would be one.
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2016-02-03T01:31:18Z Zhivago: Another might be (defvar *x*) (defun increment-x () (incf *x*)) and then (funcall #'increment-x), which has the benefit that you can apss #'increment-x around.
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2016-02-03T01:39:46Z Mitzelfl1ck: could a list system handle medical records, move them from hostpital to hostpital, and provide nice web gui, with secure login and tracking?
2016-02-03T01:40:23Z Zhivago: Potentially.
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2016-02-03T01:40:43Z mtl_: better that than java...
2016-02-03T01:40:59Z Zhivago: Potentially.
2016-02-03T01:41:19Z mtl_: be prepared to implement your own libraries though, potentially
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2016-02-03T01:43:13Z mtl_: Mitzelfl1ck: is there some standardised format for medical records, or is it just text
2016-02-03T01:43:53Z mtl_: Mitzelfl1ck: what do you need for sufficient privacy and security, and how feasible is that in lisp
2016-02-03T01:44:06Z mtl_: those are some things you'd need to figure out
2016-02-03T01:45:52Z mtl_: Mitzelfl1ck: I think you could make a strong argument that lisp is a very suitable language for most anything, given some acceptable level of library support
2016-02-03T01:46:53Z mtl_: so, look at it from that point of view; I will assume you know better what you need than I do
2016-02-03T01:47:44Z noob_: What's the advantage of (defvar *x* 0) ... (incf *x*) over the single-expression version?
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2016-02-03T01:49:02Z mtl_: noob_: and what would the single expression version be? (defvar *x* 1) ?
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2016-02-03T01:50:44Z noob_: mtl_: Zhivago's (progn (defvar *x* 0) (incf *x*))
2016-02-03T01:51:21Z mtl_: oh, I see, there's backlog
2016-02-03T01:51:22Z mtl_: hang on
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2016-02-03T01:57:27Z mtl_: noob_: you really want the closure though, like everyone else is saying
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2016-02-03T01:58:10Z mtl_: and I don't see a reason not to use a closure
2016-02-03T01:58:57Z noob_: Is there an advantage of (defvar *x* 0) ... (incf *x*) over the single-expression version?
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2016-02-03T01:59:44Z mtl_: noob_: there is a difference
2016-02-03T02:00:12Z mtl_: in that the progn will immediately increment it to 1
2016-02-03T02:00:23Z mtl_: whether or not that's an advantage, is entirely up to you
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2016-02-03T02:03:43Z mtl_: if you need it to start at 0, then define and increment it separately
2016-02-03T02:04:01Z mtl_: if you need it to start at 1, you could just define it as 1 in the first place :)
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2016-02-03T02:05:11Z mtl_: the advantage of the progn is that it always returns a number
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2016-02-03T02:15:11Z noob_: I find no difference. http://i.imgur.com/uQvihYt.png v http://i.imgur.com/GNTW203.png . Both return 1.
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2016-02-03T02:25:51Z |3b|: noob_: so does just typing 1
2016-02-03T02:26:20Z |3b|: if you are only going to call it once, why the requirement that it increments something?
2016-02-03T02:26:35Z noob_: "there is a difference" What difference?
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2016-02-03T02:27:37Z |3b|: if you call it more than once, then you evaluate the defvar every time for no reason
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2016-02-03T02:28:25Z |3b|: similarly if you call the various solutions inside a function they might behave differently
2016-02-03T02:28:47Z |3b|: or if you want more than 1 of them incrementing independently
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2016-02-03T02:33:42Z akkad: does defstruct automatically create a make-<struct-name> function?
2016-02-03T02:34:18Z |3b| thinks so, unless you tell it not to
2016-02-03T02:35:10Z noob_: "then you evaluate the defvar every time for no reason" The reason surely is to ensure it is evaluated initially. defvar working as designed.
2016-02-03T02:35:28Z noob_: "similarly if you call the various solutions inside a function they might behave differently" Aha. Can you show an example?
2016-02-03T02:36:23Z |3b|: no,  the reason is to meet the silly restriction of only having a single expression
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2016-02-03T02:38:20Z Bike: the basic issue is reading comprehension. as programmers we deal with large programs and one way of dealing with understanding them is to separate things out. we put the definition in one place and the behavior in another place and the uses in more places.
2016-02-03T02:38:34Z Bike: this may not be immediately apparent if you are just evaluating expressions in a repl.
2016-02-03T02:38:36Z |3b|: (defun a () (progn (defvar *x123* 0) (incf *x123*))) => warning, undefined variable *x123*
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2016-02-03T02:39:07Z Bike: and what 3b means is that the (progn (defvar ...) ...) thing evaluates the defvar every time, and the defvar doesn't do anything after the first time, it's just there for the single-expression restriction.
2016-02-03T02:39:09Z |3b|: whereas (defvar *x123* 0) (defun a () (incf *x123)) or (let ((x 0)) (defun a () (incf x))) work fine
2016-02-03T02:39:31Z |3b|: it does do something though, which is to check and see that it doesn't need to do anything
2016-02-03T02:40:55Z |3b|: *x123* in case you already ran the previous example, in which case *x* is already declared special, and we wouldn't want you to accidentally use a side effect of a previous expression
2016-02-03T02:40:56Z Bike: it's like having a character in a book where every piece of dialogue they say starts with "Hello, I'm [name]"
2016-02-03T02:42:47Z noob_: "(defun a () (progn (defvar *x123* 0) (incf *x123*))) => warning, undefined variable *x123*"
2016-02-03T02:43:01Z noob_: I don't get that. http://i.imgur.com/RUrFBbb.png
2016-02-03T02:43:46Z |3b|: which lisp implementation are you using?
2016-02-03T02:44:08Z noob_: As I said "I am running in http://learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/"
2016-02-03T02:44:24Z |3b|: or for a better example, (defun a (&optional *y123*) (progn (defvar *y123* 0) (incf *y123*)))
2016-02-03T02:44:40Z |3b|: (which might complain about the naming of the argument, but ignore that)
2016-02-03T02:44:50Z |3b|: and then try running (a)
2016-02-03T02:45:39Z emaczen: What is the common fix for using subst when the tree argument is from a different package? The default #'eql argument makes symbols unequal.
2016-02-03T02:45:59Z |3b|: and if it still says 1, file a bug since it shouldn't
2016-02-03T02:46:16Z noob_: It does still say 1.
2016-02-03T02:46:48Z |3b|: well, at best you are seeing the effects of using undefined behavior, otherwise your lisp implementation is buggy
2016-02-03T02:47:04Z noob_: It's not my lisp implementation.
2016-02-03T02:47:08Z Bike: emaczen: have the presumably-symbol that is the second argument to subst be from the same package as the one with the tree
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2016-02-03T02:47:16Z Bike: "your lisp implementation" as in "the lisp implementation you are using"
2016-02-03T02:47:45Z mtl_: noob_: which lisp implementation are you using though
2016-02-03T02:48:11Z emaczen: Bike: I'm using subst in a function from a different package then where i call this function
2016-02-03T02:48:23Z |3b|: mtl_: noob_ is using jscl
2016-02-03T02:48:24Z Bike: mtl_: JSCL, according to the thing.
2016-02-03T02:48:49Z Bike: emaczen: you don't use functions in packages. you can do (subst whatever 'some-package:foo tree).
2016-02-03T02:48:57Z |3b|: noob_: after checking the spec, that implementation is buggy
2016-02-03T02:50:14Z |3b|: hmm, actually, sbcl may be buggy too in the opposite way
2016-02-03T02:50:52Z |3b|: not quite as sure about that though, spec is a bit unclear
2016-02-03T02:51:17Z noob_: Is there an in-browser lisp that is not buggy?
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2016-02-03T02:51:38Z mtl_: isn't JSCL mostly a toy
2016-02-03T02:51:46Z |3b|: actually, i take that back... it might not be buggy
2016-02-03T02:51:57Z |3b|: (and no serious software is "not buggy")
2016-02-03T02:52:37Z |3b|: ok, jscl doesn't COMPILE at all, so it is incomplete rather than buggy
2016-02-03T02:53:55Z Bike: shouldn't it still signal an error? regardless of whether *y123* is special, the incf form should use the binding by the lambda list, which is to nil.
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2016-02-03T02:54:24Z |3b|: i have no idea what is correct for interpreted code
2016-02-03T02:55:24Z mtl_: noob_: why does it have to be in-browser?
2016-02-03T02:56:02Z noob_: Because if no-one can show a non-buggy lisp in a browser, I'll be worried :)
2016-02-03T02:56:03Z |3b|: at the point where the argument is bound, it is lexical, so there isn't a global dynamic value, so defvar should create/initialize it, at which point it evaluates the incf form and the var is declaimed special, so it accesses a special binding?
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2016-02-03T02:56:38Z |3b|: noob_: well, run an x86 emulator in the browser and run a normal implementation on that
2016-02-03T02:56:57Z |3b|: or just be worried, since that would probably be easier
2016-02-03T02:57:15Z noob_: If there's nothing better than that, I'd still be worried :)
2016-02-03T02:57:24Z |3b|: (since there are no non-buggy lisps, just like even the serious C compilers are buggy, etc)
2016-02-03T02:57:36Z mtl_ is not worried about the lack of excellend in-browser CL implementations
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2016-02-03T02:58:28Z mtl_: unless you need it for some project, I don't see why you would be worried
2016-02-03T02:58:57Z |3b|: noob_: well, if it is that important to you, you should probably start sending patches to one of the better existing ones or start funding them, or if they are that horrible, make a new ones
2016-02-03T02:59:29Z |3b|: or just do like everyone else does and either use JS or compile something resembling lisp to JS without worrying if it is a perfect Cl implementation or not
2016-02-03T02:59:52Z |3b|: (particularly since lots of features of CL would be useless and/or perform horribly if translated to JS)
2016-02-03T03:00:02Z noob_: " there are no non-buggy lisps" I can see then I'm going to have trouble running your examples :)
2016-02-03T03:00:20Z |3b| isn't saying they all have the same bugs
2016-02-03T03:00:36Z mtl_: noob_: there is no non-buggy major software in general
2016-02-03T03:00:46Z noob_: "without worrying if it is a perfect Cl implementation or not" I'm not worried about perfect. I'd be worried about invalid results from such trivial examples, though.
2016-02-03T03:00:57Z mtl_: and there are very good implementations
2016-02-03T03:01:02Z mtl_: just not in-browser
2016-02-03T03:01:08Z mtl_: what I don't understand is why that's so important
2016-02-03T03:01:25Z |3b|: it isn't "trivial", it is doing odd things that you wouldn't expect to see in real code
2016-02-03T03:01:35Z |3b|: which is pretty much the first place you shoujld expect to see bugs
2016-02-03T03:02:38Z noob_: "(defun a (&optional *y123*) (progn (defvar *y123* 0) (incf *y123*))" is not trivial??
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2016-02-03T03:02:42Z |3b|: no
2016-02-03T03:02:54Z Bike: it's short.
2016-02-03T03:03:05Z mtl_: seems fairly contrived to me :)
2016-02-03T03:03:06Z noob_: So "pretty much the first place you shoujld expect to see bugs"??
2016-02-03T03:03:07Z |3b|: DEFVAR has global side effects on the interpretation of the variable (which is why we put ** on the names of the variables we define with it)
2016-02-03T03:03:09Z Bike: you can write short C code that triggers bugs in compilers too. it's just not common code.
2016-02-03T03:03:39Z |3b|: changing the interpretation of a variable halfway through the execution o a function doesn't sound like "trivial" to me
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2016-02-03T03:03:58Z |3b|: DEFVAR is intended to be used at the top level, not from within functions
2016-02-03T03:04:02Z |3b|: so most code doesn't do that
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2016-02-03T03:04:24Z |3b|: doing unusual things (even if short) is a good way to trigger bugs, especially on relatively new projects like jscl
2016-02-03T03:04:32Z noob_: "DEFVAR is intended to be used at the top level, not from within functions" I thought it was defined to work in functions.
2016-02-03T03:04:36Z |3b|: it is
2016-02-03T03:04:44Z |3b|: but that doesn't mean you should
2016-02-03T03:04:48Z |3b|: or that anyone does
2016-02-03T03:05:01Z noob_: Well, you did.
2016-02-03T03:05:04Z Bike: it's just not usual to do so, because usually we're not working with "everything has to be in one expression because reasons".
2016-02-03T03:05:13Z mtl_: noob_: there's a difference between what's possible, and what
2016-02-03T03:05:16Z |3b|: right, to demonstrate why you shouldn't
2016-02-03T03:05:19Z mtl_: what's convential/reasonable
2016-02-03T03:05:27Z mtl_: conventional*
2016-02-03T03:05:32Z noob_: I thought running in a browser was reasonable.
2016-02-03T03:05:32Z |3b|: because the function i defined was intentionally written to not work
2016-02-03T03:05:34Z Bike: Usually we'd just separate out the definition and increment forms, like we did earlier, and why am I bothering
2016-02-03T03:05:53Z |3b|: (also a good way to find bugs)
2016-02-03T03:05:54Z mtl_: noob_: (in reference to calling defvar from functions)
2016-02-03T03:06:41Z |3b|: running in a browser is reasonable, but that doesn't mean it has been a high priority for anyone yet
2016-02-03T03:06:44Z noob_: "because the function i defined was intentionally written to not work" Not for undefined behaviour, though, surely.
2016-02-03T03:07:11Z |3b| isn't sure if it is defined for interpretation or not
2016-02-03T03:08:06Z |3b|: so that function is bad enough that its author can't even tell if it should work or not
2016-02-03T03:08:13Z noob_: defvar?
2016-02-03T03:08:18Z Bike: here, this one is probably defined, (symbol-macrolet ((*foo* nil)) (progn (defvar *foo* 0) (incf *foo*)))
2016-02-03T03:08:44Z noob_: "isn't sure if it is defined for interpretation or not" defvar?
2016-02-03T03:09:02Z |3b|: not the defvar part, whether the variable should see the lexical binding or the dynamic binding
2016-02-03T03:09:14Z |3b|: no, defvar is defined... i meant the whole function
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2016-02-03T03:10:18Z noob_: Surely the whole function's behaviour is defined by the language, regardless of mode of execution.
2016-02-03T03:10:55Z |3b|: it should be, and i think i understand the definition for compilation, but i'm not sure aobut interpretation
2016-02-03T03:10:58Z |3b|: *about
2016-02-03T03:11:10Z |3b|: but note that specs have bugs too
2016-02-03T03:11:40Z |3b|: particularly in edge cases you run into when doing silly things to avoid just defining a variable separately from incrementing it
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2016-02-03T03:13:08Z noob_: I don't see any edge case here.
2016-02-03T03:13:35Z |3b|: do you understand the concept of proclaiming a variable "special" in CL?
2016-02-03T03:13:52Z noob_: No.
2016-02-03T03:13:58Z |3b|: well, that's why then
2016-02-03T03:14:06Z |3b|: do you know C?
2016-02-03T03:14:06Z noob_: So glad no such proclamation here! :)
2016-02-03T03:14:12Z Bike: No, that's what defvar does.
2016-02-03T03:14:24Z Bike: Can you just... try to accept that you don't know things about this language?
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2016-02-03T03:15:16Z |3b|: if you do, this is like sequence point stuff in C. any code where it matters should be rewritten in the first place, regardless of what the spec says about how it should behave :p
2016-02-03T03:15:25Z noob_: Yes, I know C.
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2016-02-03T03:16:12Z |3b|: (and if you don't know about sequence points, you don't /really/ know about C either :)
2016-02-03T03:17:04Z noob_: Well, that's worrying. All we did was used defvar as intended.
2016-02-03T03:17:07Z |3b|: but that is sort of the point, you don't need to for sane code, same way it doesn't matter whether that function sees the lexical or dynamic binding of that variable when interpreted vs compiled, since you shouldn't have that function in the first place
2016-02-03T03:17:28Z Bike: we didn't defvar was intended to be used at top level. oh my god.
2016-02-03T03:17:55Z mtl_: |3b|: I actually hadn't heard of sequence points until you mentioned it just now
2016-02-03T03:18:01Z mtl_: and I've done my fair share of C :P
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2016-02-03T03:18:30Z |3b|: actually, maybe that is buggy, in a really twisted interpretation of the spec
2016-02-03T03:18:45Z mtl_: this does sound reminiscent of some of the problems i run into on arduinos though
2016-02-03T03:18:56Z mtl_: with arduino's leaky abstraction around hardware interrupts
2016-02-03T03:19:02Z mtl_: oh, the fun...
2016-02-03T03:19:07Z |3b|: mtl_: sequence points are how you figure out what if anything i+= a[i++]; means
2016-02-03T03:19:52Z |3b|: (if i remember correctly, "undefined" since the only sequence point is the ; but i probably don't remember correctly)
2016-02-03T03:19:58Z noob_: "defvar was intended to be used at top level". Surely defvar's conditional effect would be redundant at top level.
2016-02-03T03:19:59Z mtl_: |3b|: well, I say if you need to figure out something like that, something went horribly wrong beforehand ;)
2016-02-03T03:20:12Z |3b|: mtl_: right
2016-02-03T03:20:34Z |3b|: noob_: the idea is that you might load the file twice, for example after fixing a bug
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2016-02-03T03:20:52Z |3b|: but you could still have useful data that took a long time to calculate in the variable
2016-02-03T03:20:52Z mtl_: |3b|: I actually stopped using the postfix ++ operator entirely
2016-02-03T03:21:06Z |3b|: mtl_: actually the problem was having += and ++ on same var
2016-02-03T03:21:18Z mtl_: yeah
2016-02-03T03:21:18Z pillton: noob_: You need to know the difference between lexical and dynamic bindings.
2016-02-03T03:23:20Z mtl_: |3b|: I honestly think I might resort to gdb if I ran into that
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2016-02-03T03:23:56Z |3b|: mtl_: gdb doesn't help if t is undefined behavior, and in fact makes things worse, since you /think/ you know what it does
2016-02-03T03:24:17Z noob_: Time for bed, for me. Thanks very much all for your help. Bye for now.
2016-02-03T03:24:33Z |3b|: when in fact it could be giving the compiler permission to completely miscompile some seemingly unrelated bit of code elsewhere in the program
2016-02-03T03:24:54Z |3b|: (and C compilers do in fact do some crazy "miscompilation" in the face of undefined code)
2016-02-03T03:25:04Z mtl_: yeah
2016-02-03T03:25:18Z mtl_: "undefined" is a terrible curse in the world of C
2016-02-03T03:26:41Z loke: mtl_: It's there in CL too, although nto as bad.
2016-02-03T03:27:00Z |3b|: yeah
2016-02-03T03:27:13Z mtl_: I'd imagine it's around on some level in most programming languages of sufficient power
2016-02-03T03:27:28Z mtl_: but it's certainly a bit more terrifying in C :D
2016-02-03T03:27:42Z |3b|: i think some try to avoid it, though it can come at a cost of portability or performance
2016-02-03T03:27:51Z mtl_: especially if you're on a microcontroller and writing directly to registers
2016-02-03T03:28:28Z mtl_: C becomes scary when you can break hardware with it
2016-02-03T03:28:51Z |3b|: i think there is some push in C world for "just reject it" rather than "miscompile it at random" when undefined behavior is invoked though, which might be a bit better compromise
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2016-02-03T03:29:07Z |3b|: you can break hardware from any language :p
2016-02-03T03:29:23Z |3b|: (or at least any that lets you mess with registers)
2016-02-03T03:29:25Z mtl_ has killed some relays 
2016-02-03T03:29:46Z |3b| would rather do timing sensitive things from C than from CL for example
2016-02-03T03:29:56Z mtl_: |3b|: yeah, same
2016-02-03T03:30:11Z mtl_: much easier to think about the instruction offsets
2016-02-03T03:30:26Z |3b| was thinking more GC :p
2016-02-03T03:30:28Z mtl_: then again, there's a certain level of appeal to doing timing loops in assembly, for this reasons
2016-02-03T03:30:37Z |3b|: that too
2016-02-03T03:31:13Z mtl_: |3b|: I was thinking more along the lines of writing a byte through a single pin
2016-02-03T03:31:16Z mtl_: type stuff :)
2016-02-03T03:31:21Z |3b|: same
2016-02-03T03:32:33Z mtl_: I remember porting the arduino soft UART library to C
2016-02-03T03:33:01Z mtl_: I had to dive into this timing loop stuff
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2016-02-03T03:34:13Z mtl_: and the oh-so-wonderful world of hardware interrupts
2016-02-03T03:35:02Z mtl_: I'm still happy for jumping into that though, hardware interrupts are essential in microcontroller applications, and abstracting them away(i.e arduino) is kinda silly
2016-02-03T03:35:17Z mtl_: because it leads to very subtle and rare-striking bugs
2016-02-03T03:36:44Z mtl_: it gives you the illusion that your code isn't being interrupted
2016-02-03T03:36:58Z mtl_: because you just call read() on stuff
2016-02-03T03:37:07Z mtl_: while truly it's just pulling stuff out of a circular buffer
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2016-02-03T04:29:23Z Mitzelfl1ck: devops makes me unhappy
2016-02-03T04:29:35Z Mitzelfl1ck: I think people use too many languages and databases
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2016-02-03T04:29:44Z Mitzelfl1ck: I think it should be redone in lisp!
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2016-02-03T04:34:06Z phoe_krk: Mitzelfl1ck: then it's gonna be like "I think people use (1+ '|too many|) languages and databases"
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2016-02-03T04:38:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-03T04:40:34Z oleo_: morning
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2016-02-03T04:55:11Z Winowa2: hi guys
2016-02-03T04:55:19Z Winowa2: i have a question regarding setf
2016-02-03T04:55:28Z Zhivago: A valuable asset.
2016-02-03T04:55:30Z beach: Hello Winowa2.
2016-02-03T04:55:46Z Winowa2: if i were to declare like 12 variables
2016-02-03T04:55:51Z Winowa2: should i use setf at one go?
2016-02-03T04:56:07Z Winowa2: or create 12 setf or use a different approach?
2016-02-03T04:56:08Z Zhivago: I would not, unless some compelling reason arose.
2016-02-03T04:56:21Z Zhivago: (Try to setf 12 variables at once)
2016-02-03T04:56:36Z Zhivago: If you wanted to shuffle the values between them, perhaps.
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2016-02-03T04:57:58Z Winowa2:   what other approach will be appropriate other than setf and *let
2016-02-03T04:58:02Z axion: you could very well have undesired consequences if you do that. there is also PSETF
2016-02-03T04:58:11Z axion: depending of course
2016-02-03T04:58:45Z beach: Winowa2: Perhaps it is time for you to tell us the reason for your question?
2016-02-03T04:59:38Z Winowa2: lets say i want to calculate distance between 12 objects. I would like lisp to store these distances then call them later
2016-02-03T04:59:50Z Winowa2: beach : badum tss
2016-02-03T05:00:44Z beach: Winowa2: OK, so why are you worried about SETF?
2016-02-03T05:01:25Z beach: Winowa2: Typically, using that many variables this way indicates that you need a data structure for flexibility and encapsulation.
2016-02-03T05:02:15Z beach: Winowa2: But if you worry about something other than maintainability of your code, then I don't see a particular problem with SETF.
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2016-02-03T05:04:16Z beach: Winowa2: SETF is a macro that, if used to set the value of variables, will expand to SETQ at compile time.  Would you be equally worried about SETQ, or is your concern about SETF?
2016-02-03T05:04:40Z Winowa2: beach : I will also be assigning values to these 12 variables and calling them up later for addition and comparison with a TEMP value
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2016-02-03T05:05:07Z beach: Winowa2: Yes, and what is your worry about that?
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2016-02-03T05:05:20Z beach: Winowa2: Performance?  Maintainability?  Something else?
2016-02-03T05:05:22Z Winowa2: my worry here is If i am using setf. will it be complicated if i were to use a one setf and 12 variable initialized in it
2016-02-03T05:05:38Z Winowa2: or its better if i have 12 seperate 12f's
2016-02-03T05:05:46Z beach: Winowa2: Yes, very likely.  You should probably be using some data structure.
2016-02-03T05:06:12Z beach: For one thing, you would have to change your code if you ever have to add another value, and that is not such a great thing.
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2016-02-03T05:06:53Z beach: Winowa2: There is no difference between (progn (setf x 3) (setf y 4)) and (setf (x 3) (y 4)) if that is what you are asking.
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2016-02-03T05:07:31Z beach: Winowa2: ... neither from the point of view of performance, nor from the point of view of maintainability.
2016-02-03T05:07:56Z Winowa2: beach : got it. pardon me . i am really new in lisp
2016-02-03T05:08:23Z Winowa2: beach: thanks for the explanation too
2016-02-03T05:08:51Z beach: Independently of that, if would be good if you would explain what your worry is.
2016-02-03T05:09:01Z beach: Which you still haven't done.
2016-02-03T05:09:27Z beach: Character count in source code?  Performance?  Risk of ridicule from other people?
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2016-02-03T05:11:16Z beach: Winowa2: You mention "initialized".  SETF is not used to create variables.
2016-02-03T05:11:32Z beach: Winowa2: The variable has to be created already for you to be allowed to use SETF.
2016-02-03T05:12:08Z Winowa2: it will be function calling. Accessing the setf values later on.
2016-02-03T05:12:27Z Winowa2: ohh. i thought setf creates a variable and allows assigning values to it.
2016-02-03T05:12:50Z beach: It does not.  It assigns values to already existing variables.
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2016-02-03T05:13:08Z beach: Winowa2: It looks like you are determined to hide what your worry is.
2016-02-03T05:13:33Z Winowa2: i am trying to explain what my worry was
2016-02-03T05:13:46Z Winowa2: let me explain the whole situation again from scratch
2016-02-03T05:17:22Z Winowa2: i am trying to write two defun to an equation of lets say x + y = z
2016-02-03T05:17:55Z beach: I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
2016-02-03T05:18:05Z Winowa2: the defun for x is simple. for y on the other hand has 12 objects that can be switched out checked to a temp compare to current sum and choose the minimum
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2016-02-03T05:19:23Z Winowa2: lmao i will explain again from scratch
2016-02-03T05:19:55Z beach: Winowa2: I don't know what it  means to have "two defun for an equation".
2016-02-03T05:20:23Z Winowa2: beach: the approach i am taking to write the code that satisfy both equation
2016-02-03T05:20:33Z Winowa2: that part is ignorable acutally
2016-02-03T05:21:26Z Winowa2: Problem Statement : Do a A* Search using on a simple map finding the shortest path towards the goal.
2016-02-03T05:21:27Z beach: Winowa2: Before you said you had "an equation".  Now you say your have two.
2016-02-03T05:22:10Z Winowa2: full equation will be f(n) = g(n) + h(n)
2016-02-03T05:22:37Z beach: That's one.
2016-02-03T05:22:51Z Winowa2: the way i am approaching it is by having two defun one is for g(n) and one is for h(n)
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2016-02-03T05:23:46Z Winowa2: g(n) is where i have the 12 variables. 12 different location on a map, the program is supposed to find the shortest path to it
2016-02-03T05:24:00Z Winowa2: *shortest route
2016-02-03T05:25:55Z beach: OK.
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2016-02-03T05:27:08Z Winowa2: so by assigning all these 12 routes to setf, i will first have to declare them as A B C and so on.. then assigning distance to these routes
2016-02-03T05:28:03Z White_Flame: if these are 12 independent data points that you are going to be performing the same operation on all of them, I'd highly recommend just having them in a list and using mapcar et al
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2016-02-03T05:28:31Z Winowa2: back to my question earlier will there be a more appropriate approach to this problem then assigning these 12 variables calling them later through this one particular setf (for comparison and addition purpose)
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2016-02-03T05:28:41Z Winowa2: White_Flame: will look into that
2016-02-03T05:28:42Z beach: Winowa2: You *really* need to work on the precision in your language.  Before, the 12 things were "location". Now they are "routes"
2016-02-03T05:29:10Z White_Flame: or go to paste.lisp.org and show us an example of what you have so far
2016-02-03T05:30:45Z beach: Yes, that's a better idea.
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2016-02-03T05:35:57Z Winowa2: its something really short. Posting it now
2016-02-03T05:36:39Z Winowa2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306417
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2016-02-03T05:37:25Z White_Flame: so are you going to be mapping place names to values?
2016-02-03T05:37:25Z kenanb: I like this, this is a new language
2016-02-03T05:37:36Z White_Flame: I presume the single letter variable names each name a place
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2016-02-03T05:37:53Z Winowa2: http://imgur.com/xZmnwm8
2016-02-03T05:38:00Z Winowa2: picture of the map
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2016-02-03T05:38:25Z Winowa2: White_Flame : you presumed right
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2016-02-03T05:38:29Z White_Flame: ok so your fundamental data structure is an edge between 2 places which carries a distance
2016-02-03T05:39:57Z Winowa2: White_Flame " yes
2016-02-03T05:40:33Z White_Flame: one thing that certainly does come to mind is that if this is a homework assignment, presumably the prof wants it to be solved with whatever mechanism has been taught, not with whatever seasoned Lisp developers come up with
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2016-02-03T05:40:52Z White_Flame: ie, he just brought up a-lists, and we tell you about CLOS objects and multimethods
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2016-02-03T05:46:05Z Winowa2: White_Flame: it is
2016-02-03T05:46:20Z Winowa2: but she said we could use any approach
2016-02-03T05:46:49Z Winowa2: since there are many ways to go about in Lisp.
2016-02-03T05:47:07Z White_Flame: what approaches have you been taught so far?
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2016-02-03T05:48:53Z White_Flame: (at least the major points that you think could be applied to this problem)
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2016-02-03T05:51:28Z Winowa2: array vectors elt defstruct defclass
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2016-02-03T05:53:39Z Winowa2: also let
2016-02-03T05:53:57Z Winowa2: White_Flame : these are the ones thought
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2016-02-03T05:57:13Z White_Flame: If you map your city names to node/edge objects with an a-list, and have the nodes/edges as structs, that would be a sensible data layout inasmuch as I understand your problem scenario
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2016-02-03T05:58:12Z kenanb: Winowa2: assuming you learnt lists as well?
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2016-02-03T05:59:57Z Winowa2: kenanb : yes forgot to mention thhat as well
2016-02-03T06:02:48Z White_Flame: You should start from a simple list of distance statements, like '((oradea zerind 71) (oradea sibiu 151) ...)  You could write code to loop over that and populate more specific data structures, or search that list directly when seeking the answer to distance questions
2016-02-03T06:04:39Z Winowa2: White_Flame : WoW!  thanks. wasn't looking at this perspective before. Now that you mention it. Thanks for giving me more options to choose from.
2016-02-03T06:05:33Z White_Flame: a more specific data structure could even be a simple nested a-list: '((start-city (dest-city . distance) (dest-city . distance)) ...), but you would have to list both directions of each edge in that structure
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2016-02-03T06:06:53Z White_Flame: for example, ((oradea (sibiu . 151) (zerind . 71))   (zerind (oradea . 71) (?rad . 75)) ...)  Note that the distance 71 edge is in there twice, once for each direction
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2016-02-03T06:46:45Z phoe_krk: basically a graph
2016-02-03T06:48:14Z phoe_krk: you could basically create a graph of some sort and then run Dijkstra's algorithm on it to compute distances
2016-02-03T06:48:16Z phoe_krk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm
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2016-02-03T06:50:25Z phoe_krk: and you can create a graph representation with an alist like '((oradea zerind 71) (oradea sibiu 151) ...) sure thing.
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2016-02-03T09:08:38Z prohobo: lisp!
2016-02-03T09:09:08Z _tokamach: lisp!
2016-02-03T09:12:01Z jdtest: java! ;-)
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2016-02-03T09:13:22Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2016-02-03T09:13:28Z jdtest [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (jdtest)
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2016-02-03T09:14:45Z jackdaniel: o_O why my mobile account got kicked? for "java! ;-)" joke?
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2016-02-03T09:17:56Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: yes
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2016-02-03T09:18:48Z jackdaniel: poor reason for kick, but I guess arguing is pointless
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2016-02-03T10:44:34Z flip214: is there some lisp implementation that allows stepping/running in the interpreter and stores the side-effects, so that later on reverse-stepping (backstepping) is possible?
2016-02-03T10:47:05Z ralt: rewording: is there a lisp reverse-debugger?
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2016-02-03T10:53:50Z moore33: Probably, in some lab.
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2016-02-03T11:48:19Z fuzer: Hi. Has somebody the dto's blocky/clon sources? https://github.com/dto/blocky 404
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2016-02-03T11:56:08Z jackdaniel: fuzer: https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=blocky+common+lisp , not sure how fresh they should be
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2016-02-03T12:01:54Z scymtym_: maybe https://gitlab.com/dto/xelf ? (i think dto renamed blocky to xelf at some point)
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2016-02-03T13:56:31Z prohobo: what does #'evenp mean in lisp syntax?
2016-02-03T13:56:52Z Xach: prohobo: #'... is shorthand for (FUNCTION ...)
2016-02-03T13:56:56Z antoszka: it's the function referenced by the evenp symbol
2016-02-03T13:57:07Z Xach: and (FUNCTION FOO) means "look up FOO as a function name and return the corresponding function object"
2016-02-03T13:57:09Z prohobo: oh ty
2016-02-03T13:57:11Z Xach: when evaluated
2016-02-03T13:57:52Z prohobo: so evenp is defined somewhere
2016-02-03T13:58:37Z antoszka: prohobo: Common Lisp has this (arguably atypical) feature, that a single symbol may reference both a function and a value (among other things) in standard scenarios. Yes, it's in the ANSI standard.
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2016-02-03T13:59:04Z antoszka: clhs evenp
2016-02-03T13:59:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm
2016-02-03T13:59:09Z prohobo: ahh okay
2016-02-03T13:59:31Z prohobo: jeeze man, these koans could explain that evenp is a standard function
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2016-02-03T14:00:20Z antoszka: Suppose they could.
2016-02-03T14:00:35Z prohobo: http://hastebin.com/jeyijewuqe.lisp
2016-02-03T14:00:37Z prohobo: that's the question
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2016-02-03T14:00:55Z prohobo: nowhere does it explain what evenp does :|
2016-02-03T14:02:16Z antoszka: prohobo: the convention for predicates (functions answering „to a true/false question”) is to append p at the end
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2016-02-03T14:02:46Z antoszka: prohobo: evenp ← read as „is the value even”
2016-02-03T14:03:01Z prohobo: oh i see
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2016-02-03T14:03:42Z antoszka: prohobo: for longer multiword names you'd say something like: is-the-dog-grey-p
2016-02-03T14:03:43Z prohobo: hence equalp
2016-02-03T14:03:46Z antoszka: Yes.
2016-02-03T14:04:03Z antoszka: (Though the equality predicates are a big story in itself in common lisp)
2016-02-03T14:04:10Z prohobo: but not eq, eql, equal...
2016-02-03T14:04:17Z prohobo: alright, it's kinda confusing
2016-02-03T14:05:25Z antoszka: Yeah, equality predicates are a separate story, it's all about history and convention.
2016-02-03T14:06:04Z prohobo: i assume equalp actually came first
2016-02-03T14:06:26Z antoszka: For the start you might keep in mind a rule of the thumb that the shorter the predicate the more *strict* it is.
2016-02-03T14:06:28Z prohobo: then the other functions were introduced to combat the issues with equalp
2016-02-03T14:06:33Z prohobo: ah cool
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2016-02-03T14:07:34Z antoszka: EQ being the most strict and testing actual identity of objects.
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2016-02-03T14:26:45Z kenanb: please, some good soul tell me where to find a good explanation of how progn custom-method-combination type works, preferably an isolated example, PCL uses it but I am kind of confused because it is tightly related to the whole chapter
2016-02-03T14:27:00Z kenanb: and the rest of the chapter is not of concern to me right now
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2016-02-03T14:27:49Z kenanb: but I'll read it if no known resources directly concentrating on progn
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2016-02-03T14:35:05Z Xach: kenanb: i don't know where there is a tutorial explanation
2016-02-03T14:35:17Z Xach: kenanb: i have lived my whole life without knowing how it works or using it once. maybe i will someday.
2016-02-03T14:36:17Z warweasle: Xach: I just showed up, but I'm intrigued. What haven't you used?
2016-02-03T14:36:27Z Xach: warweasle: progn method combination
2016-02-03T14:38:44Z synchromesh: I can relate what Sonya Keene has to say on pp. 106-107 of "OO Programming in CL" if you like.
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2016-02-03T14:39:08Z warweasle: Xach: ? Googling.
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2016-02-03T14:45:32Z synchromesh: "Suppose we need to implement a function for cleanly shutting down a computer resource, such as a network interface. The network interface is an instance of a class, which is constructed from several superclasses. The ~shutdown~ generic function should allow each class the opportunity to do cleanup work in preparation for the shutdown. One class might turn off the hardware, and other classes might clear the pending input an
2016-02-03T14:45:32Z synchromesh: queues and inform the higher layers of the network that the device is no longer operational.
2016-02-03T14:45:45Z synchromesh: "For this generic function it is reasonable to use a framework that calls all applicable primary methods in most-specific-first order. This framework allows any class to provide a method for ~shutdown~. You can visualise such a framework as a Lisp form that uses ~progn~ to call all applicable primary methods:
2016-02-03T14:45:58Z drmeister: If I make changes to the ECL CLOS code  - I have to worry about breaking compatibility with the closer-mop package, don't I?
2016-02-03T14:46:11Z synchromesh: "(progn (method-1 args) 			; inform higher layers
2016-02-03T14:46:11Z synchromesh:        (method-2 args)			; flush pending queues
2016-02-03T14:46:12Z synchromesh:        (method-3 args))			; turn off hardware"
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2016-02-03T14:46:37Z drmeister: I'm trying to eliminate the use of special variables in generic function dispatch.
2016-02-03T14:46:46Z drmeister: I know that's a hard question.
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2016-02-03T14:50:15Z kenanb: synchromesh: wow, nice pointers thank you!
2016-02-03T14:51:56Z kenanb: Xach: interesting. at least I know why it is not easy to find resources about  it now. thank you :)
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2016-02-03T15:02:47Z kenanb: drmeister: I see only a 10 LoC method definition that is suspectible to modification in closer-mop's ecl specific file
2016-02-03T15:03:48Z kenanb: s/suspectible/susceptible
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2016-02-03T15:06:29Z PuercoPop: synchromesh: nice example! the + method combination is said to be used in widget size calculations
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2016-02-03T15:12:26Z synchromesh: PuercoPop: Yes, I've found Keane to be good for explicating the more arcane bits of CLOS.
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2016-02-03T15:15:24Z jackdaniel: ECL prepares for the next release \o/ 16.1.2
2016-02-03T15:17:20Z warweasle: Has anyone used screamer for prolog-like logic programming? If so, are there any examples? I'm not sure how to create rules and such.
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2016-02-03T15:20:40Z kenanb: warweasle: I used it some years ago for some small experimentation. no code left of that. I was impressed with how well it works. but I don't remember needing anything except its documentation. IIRC it was very nicely documented.
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2016-02-03T15:22:10Z kenanb: warweasle: I don't remember much about it except the fact that screamer did pretty much what is said and did it well.
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2016-02-03T15:22:40Z warweasle: kenanb: The documentation is good. I'm just not clever enough (at this time) to get it to do what I (think) I need it to do. But it's just curiosity right now.
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2016-02-03T16:31:10Z Warlock_29A: Hi all! I have trouble with sbcl or slime. When I executed (read-line) and was starting to input text, slime is freeze. When i was killing sbcl, slime continued to work. I have been working under Windows. Thank's for any help.
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2016-02-03T16:42:33Z phoe_krk: http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2016/02/slime-macrostep.html wow!
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2016-02-03T16:43:55Z synchromesh: phoe_krk: Wow is right.
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2016-02-03T16:51:48Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-03T16:52:15Z moore33: Hey
2016-02-03T16:54:21Z jasom: Anybody who thinks lisp images are too large needs to look at gcj.  I wrote a small program for form-filling PDFs (in C, unfortunately not lisp) to eliminate pdftk (which depends on gcj) and shaved almost 500MB off of the docker image by doing so.
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2016-02-03T16:55:08Z beach: Impressive.
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2016-02-03T16:55:35Z jasom: the gcj runtime library depends on gnome ...
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2016-02-03T16:58:47Z moore33: gcj is really the worst of all worlds: the Java language without its VM and ecosystem.
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2016-02-03T17:28:32Z beach: Warlock_29A: If you are going to work on Windows, you are probably better off getting a commercial Common Lisp implementation, such as LispWorks.
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2016-02-03T17:33:24Z moore33: beach: Actually, ccl + emacs works quite well on Windows.
2016-02-03T17:34:06Z beach: moore33: My point is that someone who is willing to work on a commercial operating system should be willing to pay for a commercial Common Lisp implementation as well.
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2016-02-03T17:34:43Z moore33: I'm not :)
2016-02-03T17:35:14Z beach: But then you don't ask for help here when things go wrong.
2016-02-03T17:36:01Z moore33: Heh, I guess I'd ask one of the Clozure folks directly.
2016-02-03T17:36:20Z moore33: Speaking of Windows, gotta reboot into it :P
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2016-02-03T17:59:36Z lispn00b: I have a big list of the following format
2016-02-03T17:59:51Z lispn00b: ( ("a" "b" "c" "d") ("e" "f" "g" "h") ...)
2016-02-03T18:00:16Z lispn00b: and I want to map a list of keywords to this list, like this:
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2016-02-03T18:00:29Z lispn00b: (:birthday :age :sex :name)
2016-02-03T18:00:39Z lispn00b: So the following list would be generated:
2016-02-03T18:01:08Z lispn00b: ( (:birthday "a" :age "b" :sex "c" :name "d") (:birthday "e" :age "f" :sex "g" :name "h") ...)
2016-02-03T18:01:27Z lispn00b: any tips for how I could do that?
2016-02-03T18:02:35Z Xach: lispn00b: so many options
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2016-02-03T18:02:56Z treere: map?
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2016-02-03T18:05:23Z lispn00b: I think maplist would work for this
2016-02-03T18:06:03Z Xach: lispn00b: (defun make-keymapper (&rest keys) (lambda (values) (mapcan 'list keys value))) followed by (mapcar (make-keymapper :birthday :age :sex :name) data-list)
2016-02-03T18:06:14Z Xach: that is one approach
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2016-02-03T18:06:39Z Xach: with a typo
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2016-02-03T18:07:59Z lispn00b: Oh, I see
2016-02-03T18:09:04Z lispn00b: so it'll substitute each car of the sublists for (list keys value)
2016-02-03T18:09:17Z lispn00b: thank you
2016-02-03T18:09:39Z Xach: no
2016-02-03T18:10:34Z Xach: it will make a new list that alternates keywords and values, for each sublist.
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2016-02-03T18:14:11Z lispn00b: mm
2016-02-03T18:14:31Z lispn00b: I thought mapcan worked like mapcar
2016-02-03T18:15:56Z lispn00b: ok, it uses nconc
2016-02-03T18:16:04Z lispn00b: thank you
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2016-02-03T18:57:39Z learning: does anyone know if python has an equivalent for (fresh-line) ?
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2016-02-03T18:57:56Z davsebamse: print
2016-02-03T18:58:07Z davsebamse: learning: ^
2016-02-03T18:58:21Z davsebamse: or print()
2016-02-03T18:58:37Z dlowe: or ask in #python
2016-02-03T18:58:40Z learning: wont multiple print statements cause multiple line breaks?
2016-02-03T18:58:49Z dlowe: Unless you mean the excellent Python CL compiler
2016-02-03T18:58:57Z dlowe: which predates that other language
2016-02-03T18:59:08Z learning: I asked in python, but I'm not sure they will know what I mean, and I'm sure people here know multiple languages.
2016-02-03T18:59:47Z Bike: "Is there a function that prints a newline only if there's something already on the current line"
2016-02-03T19:00:10Z learning: yes, I speak english
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2016-02-03T19:00:34Z Bike: i mean, they'd know what that means, even if they don't know what fresh-line is
2016-02-03T19:01:01Z davsebamse: ah learning print is not the same, sorry
2016-02-03T19:01:07Z learning: It's the blub paradox bike
2016-02-03T19:01:24Z learning: Like translating a word that doesn't exist in another language
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2016-02-03T19:01:45Z Bike: so you translate it as a phrase, like "a function that etc"
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2016-02-03T19:02:01Z davsebamse: learning: i think the answer is no, there is not a thing like fresh-line
2016-02-03T19:02:02Z learning: You're missing the point, I already translated it and asked them.
2016-02-03T19:02:15Z learning: But I think people here would know better since they would know both languages.
2016-02-03T19:02:30Z jasom: learning: you could make an object that wraps a file-like and tracks if the last character written was a newline
2016-02-03T19:02:39Z jasom: learning: then implementing fresh-line for that is trivial
2016-02-03T19:03:03Z davsebamse: learning: jasom speaks the words of truth
2016-02-03T19:03:16Z learning: yeah jasom, I already use a custom logger when printing stuff in python, so I should probably just add what I need to that. good point.
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2016-02-03T19:03:56Z learning: really i just find it hard to believe it doesn't already exist
2016-02-03T19:04:00Z learning: it's such a nice function to have
2016-02-03T19:04:22Z dlowe: there's another great way to have that function
2016-02-03T19:04:25Z learning: and ~&
2016-02-03T19:04:30Z jasom: hurray, there's a function we have in our standard library that python doesn't have.  Clearly we're the ones with batteries included :)
2016-02-03T19:04:41Z dlowe: one that has many other fine benefits
2016-02-03T19:04:54Z learning:  i'm sure its there and i just don't know about it  :P
2016-02-03T19:05:12Z dlowe: The way is to dump python and start using CL.
2016-02-03T19:05:50Z learning: meh, i expect more from lispers
2016-02-03T19:05:59Z learning: than trashing lesser languages
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2016-02-03T19:06:24Z dlowe: I didn't trash anything
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2016-02-03T19:06:35Z davsebamse: learning: it might be that in this case, another way. Put the stirng in a list, and join with '\n'.join(da_list_of_strings)
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2016-02-03T19:07:21Z learning: yeah, that would be a clever work around dav, wouldn't work for debugging though where most of my printing happens
2016-02-03T19:07:31Z learning: but I like that solution
2016-02-03T19:07:32Z jasom: learning: if the "trashing" comment was directed at me, my comment was a joke (clearly I thought considering the differences in sizes between the two standard libraries)
2016-02-03T19:07:43Z learning: no not you jasom
2016-02-03T19:07:50Z learning: the guy who said to drop python
2016-02-03T19:07:54Z davsebamse: at least python got some Zen
2016-02-03T19:08:01Z davsebamse: import this
2016-02-03T19:08:20Z learning: the one thing that's great about python is that no matter what i'm trying to do, i know there is already a library and a stack overflow question for it
2016-02-03T19:09:09Z learning: it's also good for sharing code with people who don't know how to code since the syntax is so stripped and english-like
2016-02-03T19:09:16Z davsebamse: learning: true :-) that is one of the great things of python
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2016-02-03T19:23:07Z learning: "UNWIND-PROTECT"   what a badass function name
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2016-02-03T19:23:51Z jasom: friends don't let friends manage resources with dynamic-extent without using unwind-protect
2016-02-03T19:24:01Z Xach also loves wild inferiors
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2016-02-03T19:51:00Z pjb: learning: the bad thing with python (and a lot of other programming languages and systems), is that there are stackoverflow questions about them!
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2016-02-03T19:51:59Z pjb: Those systems are so bad, and so badly documented, that the only way to use them is to go thru stackoverflow.  They just depend on stackoverflow instead of designing in quality and good documentation.
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2016-02-03T19:54:19Z davsebamse: pjb: have you read the python documentation? I find it quite good.
2016-02-03T19:54:28Z davsebamse: Or might standard are really low :-P
2016-02-03T19:54:30Z pjb: but you need stackoverflow.
2016-02-03T19:54:35Z davsebamse: my*
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2016-02-03T19:55:03Z davsebamse: pjb: how? There are examples in the python documentation. Might not be true for all third parties modules
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2016-02-03T19:56:08Z pjb: davsebamse: I'm not saying that you can't work offline. I'm saying that it's a pity to have to depend on stack overflow, both from the users' point of view, and from the providers' point of view.
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2016-02-03T19:59:23Z davsebamse: pjb: true, but that is the case for many languages, or all, people seek wisdom in stackoverflow before readin documentation, but that is something I see in all language and not just python
2016-02-03T19:59:33Z phoe_krk: pjb: step one, integration of StackOverflow into all IDEs and editors, including emacs.
2016-02-03T19:59:52Z phoe_krk: M-x stack-overflow "how to zip two lists in python"
2016-02-03T20:00:27Z phoe_krk: step two: Stack Overflow The Programming Language by O'Reilly Press
2016-02-03T20:00:36Z davsebamse: phoe_krk: do not joke about that... or the emacs team will get a new idea for features for emacs
2016-02-03T20:00:49Z phoe_krk: step three: integrating step one and step two, asking questions on StackOverflow about how to program with StackOverflow
2016-02-03T20:00:57Z phoe_krk: and with step three we achieve metaprogramming
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2016-02-03T20:01:29Z davsebamse: phoe_krk: and singularity! the computers will use the knowledge on SO to create the next stack overflow
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2016-02-03T20:01:40Z phoe_krk: first there will be MetaStackOverflow
2016-02-03T20:01:47Z davsebamse: hehehe yes :-)
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2016-02-03T20:01:57Z phoe_krk: and then there will be (Meta)^(n)StackOverflow, n≥1
2016-02-03T20:02:09Z mordocai: MetaStackOverflow == StackExchange ?
2016-02-03T20:02:13Z phoe_krk: no no
2016-02-03T20:02:21Z phoe_krk: StackOverflow will be a programming language
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2016-02-03T20:02:27Z mordocai: AH okay
2016-02-03T20:02:27Z learning: pjb I find that documentation for anything only becomes readable after you actually know what you're doing.
2016-02-03T20:02:40Z phoe_krk: so you can't ask questions on StackOverflow because it's the programming language you're asking questions about.
2016-02-03T20:02:44Z contrapunctus: phoe_krk: supporting the Stack Overflow-oriented-programming paradigm?
2016-02-03T20:02:47Z phoe_krk: so you need something higher, a MetaStackOverflow.
2016-02-03T20:02:49Z phoe_krk: contrapunctus: yes.
2016-02-03T20:02:53Z contrapunctus: :p
2016-02-03T20:03:00Z phoe_krk: StackOverflow as a programming paradigm.
2016-02-03T20:03:02Z phoe_krk: Fuck.
2016-02-03T20:03:11Z phoe_krk: Lisp must be capable of supporting this.
2016-02-03T20:03:22Z phoe_krk: Stack Overflow-oriented programming paradigm.
2016-02-03T20:03:38Z phoe_krk: You write questions that get automatically posted to StackOverflow.
2016-02-03T20:03:46Z phoe_krk: And the compiler hangs until they're answered.A
2016-02-03T20:03:52Z phoe_krk: And the forms evaluate to the code posted in the answer.
2016-02-03T20:04:14Z davsebamse: that sounds like one great macro
2016-02-03T20:04:16Z phoe_krk: ...Guys, I think I just found a new way to make programming fun again.
2016-02-03T20:04:21Z learning: lol
2016-02-03T20:04:24Z phoe_krk: And a way to utilize Drakma.
2016-02-03T20:04:26Z learning: i love it
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2016-02-03T20:04:39Z davsebamse: One macro to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them
2016-02-03T20:04:48Z phoe_krk: s/bind/eval
2016-02-03T20:04:58Z phoe_krk:  /
2016-02-03T20:06:06Z phoe_krk: oh lord
2016-02-03T20:06:08Z davsebamse: that is vigor-level crazy
2016-02-03T20:06:27Z phoe_krk: there's this new plugin to Slime, right
2016-02-03T20:06:44Z phoe_krk: macrostep or something
2016-02-03T20:06:52Z phoe_krk: you can write a SO-oriented macro
2016-02-03T20:07:08Z phoe_krk: slime-macrostep it
2016-02-03T20:07:14Z pjb: write  a macro: (stack-overflow "my boss asked me to write an accounting program, how do I do that?")
2016-02-03T20:07:19Z learning: you could write tests, and hang until the tests pass
2016-02-03T20:07:19Z phoe_krk: yes! precisely that
2016-02-03T20:07:29Z phoe_krk: you macrostep it, it will hang until someone answers
2016-02-03T20:07:52Z phoe_krk: and then you have the code with commented documentation in it
2016-02-03T20:07:57Z phoe_krk: RIGHT IN THE MACRO'S PLACE
2016-02-03T20:07:58Z learning: ahhaahahha
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2016-02-03T20:08:09Z learning: didn't even think about the auto documentation XD
2016-02-03T20:08:12Z phoe_krk: JUST WHERE YOU NEED IT
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2016-02-03T20:09:18Z phoe_krk: optionally you use (with-stack-overflow (block-name) ...) to mark the code you want posted into your original question
2016-02-03T20:09:32Z phoe_krk: and you go (stack-overflow :block block-name "...")
2016-02-03T20:10:09Z phoe_krk: guys, do you realize that if we do it first, Lisp will be the first language *ever* to directly support StackOverflow-oriented programming?
2016-02-03T20:10:14Z learning: better to generate some fake code from your tests
2016-02-03T20:10:26Z phoe_krk: oh, or that
2016-02-03T20:11:39Z learning: let me know when it's finished
2016-02-03T20:12:08Z phoe_krk: learning: I'm not working on it, no chance :P
2016-02-03T20:12:14Z phoe_krk: not now at least
2016-02-03T20:12:28Z learning: just ask a question on stack overflow on how you would write it
2016-02-03T20:12:33Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-02-03T20:12:41Z phoe_krk: God damn you learning
2016-02-03T20:12:43Z davsebamse: the circle is complete :-)
2016-02-03T20:13:05Z phoe_krk: but here comes the realization you can bootstrap everything with StackOverflow-oriented programming now
2016-02-03T20:13:08Z phoe_krk: *everything*
2016-02-03T20:14:00Z phoe_krk: (stack-overflow "how do I write a Lisp program that will prove that P=NP")
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2016-02-03T20:17:54Z dlowe: phoe_krk: will that program terminate or not?
2016-02-03T20:18:47Z phoe_krk: dlowe: (stack-overflow "how do I check whether the program asked in question ~A will terminate or not?" (stack-overflow "how do I write a Lisp program that will prove that P=NP"))
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2016-02-03T20:26:35Z ralt: phoe_krk if it's on stackoverflow, the last paren is missing
2016-02-03T20:28:05Z phoe_krk: well, fsck
2016-02-03T20:28:09Z man213: (stack-overfolw "Do I have a typo?")
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2016-02-03T20:30:58Z phoe_krk: omg
2016-02-03T20:31:14Z phoe_krk: a SLDB plugin that automatically posts a stackoverflow question whenever SLDB is invoked.
2016-02-03T20:31:26Z phoe_krk: that picks a proper restart and fixes your code.
2016-02-03T20:31:40Z phoe_krk: therefore, programs that write themselves on their own.
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2016-02-03T20:32:33Z phoe_krk: which proves the theorem that Lisp is good for AI-programming.
2016-02-03T20:32:41Z phoe_krk: StackOverflow Artificial Intelligence.
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2016-02-03T20:49:40Z jasom: I think it's more crowd-sourcing than AI
2016-02-03T20:51:35Z davsebamse: jasom: for someone that do not know stackoverflow will it seem like an AI... or magic
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2016-02-03T20:53:12Z learning: maybe if AI stands for Actual Intelligence since you are using Actual Humans
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2016-02-03T21:29:37Z man213: Guys, does anyone has experience using swig and writing cffi-bindings?
2016-02-03T21:30:17Z mordocai: I'm sure plenty of people do around here. I'd recommend just asking your question.
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2016-02-03T21:31:18Z man213: mordocai: ok, I prepared some data on pastebin with fragment of C code and swig output: http://pastebin.com/cqgisFgn
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2016-02-03T21:32:12Z man213: I can't understand why compiler yelling about wrong type
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2016-02-03T21:34:55Z |3b|: well, BGFX_ATTRIB_COUNT isn't a number as the error says, and something tries to add 4 to it, so yelling seems approriate
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2016-02-03T21:36:56Z |3b|: could be a swig bug, or could be you didn't give it enough information
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2016-02-03T22:02:26Z attila_lendvai: man213: this is using a new feature in CFFI: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/hu.dwim.bluez
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2016-02-03T22:03:00Z attila_lendvai: man213: it uses LLVM (c2ffi) to generate a json file, from which it generates the CFFI bindings
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2016-02-03T22:03:47Z attila_lendvai: man213: I think it's better, I played both with verrazano and swing before, but wrote this based on c2ffi
2016-02-03T22:04:13Z man213: attila_lendvai: Unfortunately I can't build c2ffi on windows((
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2016-02-03T22:05:01Z attila_lendvai: oh, windows? well, then I don't know... c2ffi can cross-generate for the windows platform, but I have no clue.
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2016-02-03T22:05:59Z emaczen: Can I depend on a system and then only load particular packages in that system instead of all packages?
2016-02-03T22:06:13Z man213: attila_lendvai: I suspect I can try to generate bindings under Linux and use them on windows. Thank's for the hint!
2016-02-03T22:07:07Z attila_lendvai: man213: ping me when you're stuck, I'm around here usually in EU time
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2016-02-03T22:08:08Z man213: attila_lendvai: Thank you very much. Me too usually in EU time) and sometimes some sleepless nights
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2016-02-03T22:11:47Z mood: emaczen: No, you can't. ASDF doesn't actually care about packages, just about files to load for a system.
2016-02-03T22:11:58Z mood: (Not entirely true, I'm ignoring package-inferred systems)
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2016-02-03T22:33:19Z emaczen: mood: thanks
2016-02-03T22:33:30Z emaczen: I ended up just moving the package out
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2016-02-04T00:12:23Z kadico: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-02-04T00:35:20Z emaczen: What is the recommened way to get CCL and update it?
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2016-02-04T00:47:12Z p_l: svn checkout
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2016-02-04T01:13:19Z drmeister: What arguments does a method-function take?
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2016-02-04T01:14:58Z Bike: the arguments to the gf, i think
2016-02-04T01:16:10Z Bike: wait. no.
2016-02-04T01:16:20Z Bike: sorry, it takes the gf args as a list, and then the list of next methods.
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2016-02-04T01:16:24Z drmeister: Or two arguments, the a list of the arguments and a list of next methods?
2016-02-04T01:16:36Z Bike: rite
2016-02-04T01:16:39Z drmeister: s/the a list/the list/g
2016-02-04T01:16:42Z drmeister: Ok,
2016-02-04T01:17:16Z drmeister: I'm trying to do major surgery on the ECL CLOS code to eliminate its use of special variables and I feel like I'm in over my head.
2016-02-04T01:17:26Z drmeister: I found my AMOP book at least.
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2016-02-04T02:04:31Z drmeister: Can accessors created by defclass invoke call-next-method?
2016-02-04T02:05:12Z Bike: accessors use standard method combo, so i guess?
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2016-02-04T04:33:02Z learning: is there a standard way of excluding subdirecories when trying to get all the files in a folder: (directory (concatenate 'string folder "/*.*"))
2016-02-04T04:34:16Z learning: should i use (remove-if (lambda (path-object)....?
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2016-02-04T04:43:00Z learning:  /topic
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2016-02-04T04:45:08Z learning: this is what I ended up going with, all critiques are welcome and appreciated: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306500
2016-02-04T04:46:37Z jasom: learning: note that there are some issues using the builtin directory operators in this manner
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2016-02-04T04:46:43Z meister: IRCCloud is acting up.
2016-02-04T04:47:16Z learning: are you talking about portability iessues across OS's?
2016-02-04T04:47:27Z jasom: learning: across OS's and implementations
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2016-02-04T04:48:09Z learning: if i need portable file IO i'm better off using a third party lib right?
2016-02-04T04:48:18Z meister: The list of next-methods that are passed to a method-function, it contains a list of method functions, that also take two arguments, ( generic-function-arguments list-of-next-methods)  - correct?
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2016-02-04T04:48:21Z jasom: yeah, e.g. cl-fad
2016-02-04T04:48:30Z jasom: (remove-if #'directory-pathname-p (list-directory ".")) <-- cl-fad solution
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2016-02-04T04:50:15Z learning: ok, i'll remember that for whenever i write a program that needs to run on another computer, thank you.
2016-02-04T04:50:46Z jasom: also uiop has some useful abstractions for this
2016-02-04T04:51:04Z jasom: learning: or if you need to handle files that contain an asterisk, for example
2016-02-04T04:51:06Z learning: that's the same guy who wrote cl-ppcre right
2016-02-04T04:51:19Z jasom: yup
2016-02-04T04:51:21Z jasom: and cl-who
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2016-02-04T04:52:12Z je4i: and the new book 'cl recipes'
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2016-02-04T04:52:55Z jasom: but even without portability, the cl-fad solution is more compact and obvious about what it's doing
2016-02-04T04:53:23Z learning: yeah i just dont want to deal with libs unless i have to right now
2016-02-04T04:53:32Z jasom: fair enough
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2016-02-04T04:54:40Z learning: i read the File I/O chapter from PCL today and that made it pretty clear that i'm better off relying on third party libs for any serious project
2016-02-04T04:54:46Z jasom: though it's way easier to use libraries now than when I learned lisp.  I literally used to reimplement the parts of libraries I wanted to use because it was easier than figuring out how to get them installed.
2016-02-04T04:54:50Z learning: but i still wanna apply the stuff i learned
2016-02-04T04:55:19Z learning: quicklisp is pretty fantastic
2016-02-04T04:55:32Z learning: probably the most painless experience ive had with a package manager
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2016-02-04T05:23:34Z drmeister: Hello?
2016-02-04T05:23:44Z drmeister: Is this mike on?
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2016-02-04T05:24:14Z drmeister: I think I managed to eliminate special variables from ECL generic function dispatch.
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2016-02-04T05:24:34Z drmeister: Woot!  Yes - CLOS loaded.
2016-02-04T05:25:09Z drmeister: Yep!
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2016-02-04T05:26:35Z drmeister: It was brain surgery - so many things need to be changed and work together.
2016-02-04T05:27:21Z drmeister: My hope is that this will speed up clasp's compiler (Cleavir) because Cleavir uses a LOT of generic functions.
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2016-02-04T05:36:06Z Bike: is it actually faster without dynamic variables?
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2016-02-04T06:06:30Z drmeister: Clasp has a special issue with dynamic variables.
2016-02-04T06:07:36Z drmeister: beach recommended using a call-with-variable-bound function to deal with binding special variables.   That forces the creation of closures when special variables are used.
2016-02-04T06:08:19Z drmeister: ECL generic function dispatch uses dynamic variables to keep track of the arguments and next methods. So whenever a generic function was called closures would be allocated.  That slows things down.
2016-02-04T06:09:11Z drmeister: How much?  Who knows - it's difficult to measure.  But in general I'm trying to reduce consing as much as possible.   Cleavir uses lots of generic functions and my guess was that the consing was what was slowing it down.
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2016-02-04T06:22:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-04T07:17:51Z mordocai: So I was playing with some basic type declarations just to see how they work with SBCL, and I expected http://lpaste.net/151651 to cause a compile time error but it doesn't. Is there a different way to declare types that would cause a compile time error, or is the type system not capable of picking up things like that? (obviously I get a runtime error)
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2016-02-04T07:19:53Z Bike: trying try throwing in some (optimize (safety 3))
2016-02-04T07:20:10Z jackdaniel: hello
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2016-02-04T07:24:49Z mordocai: Bike: tried a few things that haven't seemed to help, see here http://lpaste.net/151652
2016-02-04T07:24:56Z mordocai: I added those one at a time
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2016-02-04T07:25:40Z mordocai: To clarify, "not seeming to help" means just still no compile time errors
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2016-02-04T07:26:36Z mordocai: In case it matters, i'm testing by C-c C-k with sly.
2016-02-04T07:26:36Z Bike: (declaim (ftype (function (number number) number) add)) is enough to make add2 compile time warn.
2016-02-04T07:27:07Z scymtym: alternatively, if using SBCL, you can set SB-EXT:*DERIVE-FUNCTION-TYPES* to true
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2016-02-04T07:28:35Z mordocai: I think bike's answer will work for my current purposes but i'll keep that in mind/test that too
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2016-02-04T07:33:11Z rubengarcia: any one use lisp for microcontrollers? Curious.
2016-02-04T07:33:37Z White_Flame: there's picolisp, though it's not CL
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2016-02-04T07:34:35Z rubengarcia: I will look in to picolisp. thanks white_flame
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2016-02-04T07:54:22Z jackdaniel: ah, he left
2016-02-04T07:55:40Z jackdaniel: there is also armpit (scheme for stm32), microscheme (atmega), PICOBIT and BIT
2016-02-04T07:55:53Z jackdaniel: for motorola
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2016-02-04T07:57:47Z p_l: there's also "use lisp to generate code for your microcontroller"
2016-02-04T07:58:50Z jackdaniel: basically microscheme does that, you don't have eval available
2016-02-04T07:59:00Z jackdaniel: nor repl
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2016-02-04T13:18:57Z drmeister: Hi - I eliminated special variables from ECL's CLOS generic function dispatch in an attempt to speed up the Cleavir compiler in Clasp.
2016-02-04T13:19:13Z drmeister: That led to a problem when I compile the CLOS code.
2016-02-04T13:20:04Z drmeister: A generic function is being injected into the code and the compiler is being asked to:    In codegen-atom add support to codegen the atom type STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION - value: #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION INITIALIZE-INSTANCE>
2016-02-04T13:20:28Z drmeister: It's trying to codegen a STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
2016-02-04T13:20:43Z drmeister: I see where it's happening and I'm scratching my head to figure out the solution.
2016-02-04T13:20:58Z drmeister: Hang on, pasting some code.
2016-02-04T13:22:17Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306531
2016-02-04T13:22:45Z drmeister: This is clasp's MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA function.
2016-02-04T13:23:08Z drmeister: ECL's original code is in there as well at the bottom.  It uses special variables, clasp's does not.
2016-02-04T13:23:38Z drmeister: The problem is line 15
2016-02-04T13:23:51Z drmeister: (apply #'no-next-method ,gf ,method ...)
2016-02-04T13:25:16Z drmeister: This is within a backquote, so it's returning an s-expression that contains a raw generic function and method.
2016-02-04T13:26:46Z drmeister: Compiling this will force the compiler to generate code for a literal object for the generic function and method - which are not externalizable objects.
2016-02-04T13:27:27Z drmeister: How do I generate something that at load-time will be resolved to the generic function and method objects to pass to NO-NEXT-METHOD?
2016-02-04T13:27:46Z drmeister: Hmm, just formulating the question has given me some ideas.
2016-02-04T13:28:06Z synchromesh: drmeister: Glad we could help. :)
2016-02-04T13:28:09Z drmeister: LOAD-TIME-VALUE?   FDEFINITION?  Check the ECL code for CALL-NEXT-METHOD and see what it does?
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2016-02-04T13:28:22Z drmeister: That's why I post here.
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2016-02-04T13:30:47Z drmeister: Hmmm, ECL doesn't appear to do the right thing - it signals (error "No next method")
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2016-02-04T13:34:10Z attila_lendvai pings jackdaniel
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2016-02-04T13:34:46Z jackdaniel: hi o/
2016-02-04T13:35:04Z jackdaniel: what's wrong with this error? anything non-in-par with spec?
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2016-02-04T13:39:17Z jackdaniel: because if there is no next method, then calling (call-next-method) from the method should signal an error, doesn't it?
2016-02-04T13:39:30Z drmeister: I think the right thing is to invoke (NO-NEXT-METHOD gf method ...)
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2016-02-04T13:39:52Z drmeister: Isn't it?
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2016-02-04T13:40:55Z drmeister: ECL defines this:
2016-02-04T13:40:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oSUBFBKs/
2016-02-04T13:41:04Z drmeister: In fixup.lsp
2016-02-04T13:41:18Z jackdaniel: yes, I see it
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2016-02-04T13:42:50Z drmeister: I just changed the (apply #'no-next-method ,gf ,method ...) to (error "No next method") just to see if everything else works.
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2016-02-04T13:44:14Z drmeister: I see why ECL does this - I'm scratching my head re how to give CALL-NEXT-METHOD access to the current generic function and method at runtime to call NO-NEXT-METHOD.
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2016-02-04T13:46:11Z jackdaniel: hrm, it seems that no-next-method is never called, only passed as an argument for lambdas (but declared ignorable)
2016-02-04T13:46:25Z drmeister: Right
2016-02-04T13:47:10Z drmeister: When I use ECL's approach (error "No next method") - clasp compiles.
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2016-02-04T13:49:15Z jackdaniel: does your approach (w/o special variables) improve speed?
2016-02-04T13:49:23Z didi: Is https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a048e2c a good way to slurp a file into a string?
2016-02-04T13:49:40Z jackdaniel: didi: alexandria has appropriate function
2016-02-04T13:49:52Z v0lta_: didi: link doesnt work for me
2016-02-04T13:49:53Z jackdaniel: (your link is broken to me)
2016-02-04T13:49:57Z didi: jackdaniel: Thanks. I will look into it.
2016-02-04T13:50:09Z didi: Uh, weird.
2016-02-04T13:50:14Z didi: Let me check it.
2016-02-04T13:50:20Z jackdaniel: didi: #'alexandria:read-file-into-string
2016-02-04T13:50:21Z didi: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a048e2c3
2016-02-04T13:50:29Z jackdaniel: and read-file-into-byte-vector
2016-02-04T13:50:30Z didi: Sorry. I missed a 3.
2016-02-04T13:50:33Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I'll find out soon if this improves speed.
2016-02-04T13:52:27Z jackdaniel disappears in the smoke. The sound of clapping hands follows. He leaves for lunch :)
2016-02-04T13:52:48Z drmeister: didi:  I use something like this:
2016-02-04T13:52:50Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/yhXN2yRp/
2016-02-04T13:53:54Z didi: drmeister: Noice. Like I do it.
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2016-02-04T13:54:21Z drmeister: It's much faster to load the entire file into memory than dealing with it line by line.
2016-02-04T13:54:52Z didi: Alexandria reads chunks of data and prints under `with-output-to-string'. Interesting.
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2016-02-04T13:58:42Z ralt: and uiop does some stream magic https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/uiop/stream.lisp
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2016-02-04T13:59:21Z drmeister: I'm thinking that to give call-next-method access to the current method and generic function I'd have to pass them like I pass .combined-method-args. and .next-methods.
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2016-02-04T13:59:52Z drmeister: I can see why ECL does what it does - invoking NO-NEXT-METHOD is harder.
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2016-02-04T14:12:28Z drmeister: Does anyone know how CALL-METHOD is supposed to get access to the combined method arguments if they aren't stored in a special variable?   GRRR
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2016-02-04T14:17:36Z drmeister: CLTL2 says CALL-METHOD is a macro that takes (method next-method-list) as arguments.
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2016-02-04T14:35:59Z dreamaddict: quicklisp includes asdf, correct?
2016-02-04T14:36:34Z Fare: an ancient one
2016-02-04T14:36:55Z Fare: not capable of loading many of the recent systems
2016-02-04T14:37:11Z dreamaddict: asdf-install doesn't even seem to be present on my lisp
2016-02-04T14:37:16Z Xach_: Few recent systems use ASDF3-only syntax.
2016-02-04T14:37:27Z Xach_: dreamaddict: asdf-install is many years obsolete
2016-02-04T14:37:41Z dreamaddict: well I wanted to use a lib that isn't in quicklisp apparently
2016-02-04T14:38:13Z Xach_: dreamaddict: that usually isn't too hard
2016-02-04T14:38:18Z Xach_: What library is it?
2016-02-04T14:38:23Z dreamaddict: cl-sdl2-mixer
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2016-02-04T14:39:37Z Xach_: dreamaddict: one option is to: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects && git clone https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2-mixer.git
2016-02-04T14:39:44Z Xach_: then (ql:quickload "cl-sdl2-mixer")
2016-02-04T14:39:45Z Xach_: that might work
2016-02-04T14:40:10Z Cymew: I think sdlbuilder included sdl2-mixer, doesn't it?
2016-02-04T14:40:41Z Xach_: it includes something called lispbuilder-sdl-mixer. i don't know if that's sdl2.
2016-02-04T14:41:07Z Cymew: Oh, that's true. It might be the old 1.2
2016-02-04T14:41:15Z dreamaddict: it is
2016-02-04T14:41:38Z Cymew: I have not seen much need for v2 yet though.
2016-02-04T14:41:41Z dreamaddict: I installed it and checked, sdl2 is in quicklisp, but these mixer wrappers are not, I don't think
2016-02-04T14:41:44Z Cymew: dreamaddict: Do you have a use case?
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2016-02-04T14:41:57Z dreamaddict: what do you mean by use case?
2016-02-04T14:42:01Z Cymew: for v2
2016-02-04T14:42:28Z dreamaddict: oh not particularly
2016-02-04T14:42:47Z Cymew: I took a quick check of v2 when it came, and never really saw what 1.2 was missing.
2016-02-04T14:42:50Z jfe: hi all. i'd like to create a function 'cat' that is equivalent to (concatenate 'string ...) but it's unclear to me how i pass the 'rest' parameters of 'cat' to the rest parameters of concatenate. any ideas?
2016-02-04T14:43:07Z dlowe: jfe: use APPLY
2016-02-04T14:43:20Z dreamaddict: really I just planned on using those mixer wrappers and then updated the whole thing to v2
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2016-02-04T14:43:28Z dreamaddict: for all of the other libs
2016-02-04T14:43:38Z Cymew: I see.
2016-02-04T14:43:59Z dreamaddict: ah quicklisp won't work with that quickload trick
2016-02-04T14:44:16Z Xach_: dreamaddict: what happened when you tried?
2016-02-04T14:44:30Z dreamaddict: it said "System "cl-sdl2-mixer" not found
2016-02-04T14:44:56Z dlowe: jfe: the last parameter to APPLY should be a list containing the rest of the arguments
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2016-02-04T14:45:19Z Xach_: dreamaddict: my mistake. the system is named "sdl2-mixer".
2016-02-04T14:45:38Z Xach_: what you quickload should match the *.asd file
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2016-02-04T14:48:34Z jfe: dlowe: is there a way to expand &rest parameters, sort of like python's * operator?
2016-02-04T14:49:07Z jfe: (defun cat (&rest strings) (apply #'(lambda (&rest s) (concatenate 'string s)) strings)) doesn't work.
2016-02-04T14:49:15Z dlowe: too complicated :)
2016-02-04T14:49:16Z dreamaddict: the quickload worked now, but the cffi lib is throwing an error: "Unable to load any of the alternatives: "
2016-02-04T14:49:30Z dlowe: (defun cat (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings))
2016-02-04T14:49:37Z dreamaddict: which means I must be missing the mixer part of sdl2
2016-02-04T14:50:32Z dlowe: Also, I happened to notice that as documentation, the CLHS section on APPLY is terrible.
2016-02-04T14:50:49Z dlowe: You can kind of tell what's going on by the examples
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2016-02-04T14:51:33Z moore33: dlowe: It recurses into the glossary.
2016-02-04T14:51:48Z dlowe: yes, and the glossary entry is pretty opaque too
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2016-02-04T14:52:35Z moore33: hmm, the glossary entry for apply seems clear enough if you know what "to call a function with arguments" means.
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2016-02-04T14:53:03Z Xach_: dreamaddict: seems likely
2016-02-04T14:53:05Z dreamaddict: ok all good, thank you very much
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2016-02-04T14:53:32Z jfe: dlowe: ahh, gotcha. thank you.
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2016-02-04T14:54:59Z dlowe: moore33: oh, I thought you meant the glossary entry for a spreadable argument list designator
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2016-02-04T14:55:35Z dlowe: which, really, is the most important part
2016-02-04T14:56:58Z moore33: I have no idea what a spreadable argument list designator is :) Better look at the glossary....
2016-02-04T14:58:00Z moore33: Oh, I understand.
2016-02-04T14:58:16Z moore33: clhs list*
2016-02-04T14:58:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm
2016-02-04T14:59:31Z moore33: True enough, list* doesn't actually take a spreadable argument list designator :) What else does?
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2016-02-04T15:03:51Z dlowe: it's only mentioned in the glossary, the index, and the APPLY entry
2016-02-04T15:04:02Z dlowe: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alispworks.com+%22spreadable+argument+list+designator%22&oq=site%3Alispworks.com+%22spreadable+argument+list+designator%22
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2016-02-04T15:16:02Z moore33: Those ANSI Common Lisp guys must have been smoking something.
2016-02-04T15:16:59Z dlowe: shrug. The spec isn't necessarily intended to be documentation, though for the most part it does that very well.
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2016-02-04T15:19:40Z Xof: moore33 is being self-deprecating
2016-02-04T15:19:48Z Xof: what were you in fact smoking, moore33?
2016-02-04T15:21:06Z moore33: Xof: Uh... I don't remember.
2016-02-04T15:21:17Z moore33: Xof: Hi, by the way :)
2016-02-04T15:22:08Z Xof: long time no see
2016-02-04T15:22:13Z Xof: as ever :-/
2016-02-04T15:22:14Z algae quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2016-02-04T15:22:21Z moore33: Actually, except for one or two, I doubt much smoking was going on; it was more the typical syndrome of everyone just knowing what the terms meant.
2016-02-04T15:22:25Z moore33: Yeah...
2016-02-04T15:22:47Z moore33: beach is twisting  my arm to go to ELS, but I don't think it will happen this year.
2016-02-04T15:24:48Z erased quit (Quit: = "")
2016-02-04T15:24:55Z phoe_krk: ELS will happen this year.
2016-02-04T15:25:21Z erased joined #lisp
2016-02-04T15:25:31Z moore33: phoe_krk: I meant the my going to it.
2016-02-04T15:26:04Z antoszka: moore33: I highly recommend joining, I've chosen a nice Jewish restaurant for the dinner :)
2016-02-04T15:26:05Z akkad: where will it be held?
2016-02-04T15:26:09Z antoszka: akkad: Cracow.
2016-02-04T15:26:26Z akkad: ahh
2016-02-04T15:26:26Z moore33: Sigh.
2016-02-04T15:27:36Z moore33: antoszka: My wife is agitating for it too, but It's a bit hard for me to justify going without submitting a paper, and I just haven't been doing enough Lispy things until recently to produce one.
2016-02-04T15:27:56Z phoe_krk: then you'll be inspired by ELS enough to produce lispy things afterwards.
2016-02-04T15:27:58Z phoe_krk: case dismissed.
2016-02-04T15:28:28Z DeadTrickster: what is ELS?
2016-02-04T15:28:50Z DeadTrickster: I want to be inspired too
2016-02-04T15:29:13Z phoe_krk: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/
2016-02-04T15:31:16Z DeadTrickster: ah smart kids meeting. I will be denied for exit visa anyway
2016-02-04T15:31:24Z badkins quit
2016-02-04T15:31:47Z phoe_krk: ow.
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2016-02-04T15:33:12Z antoszka: DeadTrickster: You mean, a visa allowing you to exit Poland once you fly in?
2016-02-04T15:33:26Z DeadTrickster: no
2016-02-04T15:33:42Z DeadTrickster: to exit beloved motherland
2016-02-04T15:34:07Z helio joined #lisp
2016-02-04T15:34:18Z moore33: ouch
2016-02-04T15:34:57Z akkad: some people have motherlands others have fatherlands.
2016-02-04T15:35:20Z feep: some people have two motherlands, and that's okay.
2016-02-04T15:35:29Z antoszka: DeadTrickster: What is your beloved nether^Wmotherland?
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2016-02-04T15:35:44Z DeadTrickster: russia
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2016-02-04T15:36:00Z antoszka: Thought so.
2016-02-04T15:36:16Z DeadTrickster: yea I said motherland on purpose
2016-02-04T15:36:20Z antoszka: What other country has lispers and makes it difficult for them to leave.
2016-02-04T15:36:30Z synchromesh: DeadTrickster: "Bryansk"?
2016-02-04T15:36:51Z akkad: In my day one did not need a passport to go from mother russian to Cracow
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2016-02-04T15:37:19Z DeadTrickster: yeah
2016-02-04T15:37:32Z tristam__ is now known as Tristam
2016-02-04T15:37:37Z akkad: Путин will fix that soon enough :P
2016-02-04T15:37:47Z DeadTrickster: akkad, Putin would like to agree you
2016-02-04T15:37:49Z DeadTrickster: lol
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2016-02-04T15:38:40Z DeadTrickster: anyway visas are stupidest thing I've ever met
2016-02-04T15:39:34Z DeadTrickster: once I wanted to attend ANN conference in Belgium
2016-02-04T15:39:49Z DeadTrickster: and was denied because they though I do money laundering
2016-02-04T15:40:16Z DeadTrickster: I got 10 pages response in two languages I still don't know
2016-02-04T15:41:18Z akkad: be like руки броch
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2016-02-04T15:41:49Z dwchandler: (> 'Poutine 'Путин) ; => t
2016-02-04T15:42:18Z akkad: hmm gravy
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2016-02-04T15:43:56Z jackdaniel: be like Vinni Puh :)
2016-02-04T15:46:10Z phoe_krk: At 04.02.2016 16:45:49 CET, a TYPE-ERROR has been encountered: The value NET.QWPX.KLACZ-EVAL::PUTIN is not of type NUMBER.
2016-02-04T15:46:16Z phoe_krk: this doesn't work, dwchandler
2016-02-04T15:46:42Z DeadTrickster: wow meet fanciest package name to-date
2016-02-04T15:47:08Z dwchandler: phoe_krk: oh, sorry. works in picolisp
2016-02-04T15:47:18Z phoe_krk: also ,eval (string> 'Putin 'Путин) ;=> NIL
2016-02-04T15:49:36Z antoszka: (string> 'Putain 'Путин) ; => T
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2016-02-04T16:01:01Z jfe: how can i display an integer as a string with N leading zeroes?
2016-02-04T16:01:17Z jfe: erm... what i mean is, can format do that?
2016-02-04T16:01:28Z antoszka: yes
2016-02-04T16:01:29Z Bike: write N zeroes, and then write the number?
2016-02-04T16:02:24Z ralt: jfe: you mean left-padding a number, so that it's always the same number of digits?
2016-02-04T16:02:27Z antoszka: > (format nil "~8,'0d" 123)
2016-02-04T16:02:28Z antoszka: "00000123"
2016-02-04T16:02:32Z Bike: if you mean "write N digits" then it's pretty easy, yeah
2016-02-04T16:03:03Z jfe: antoszka: thanks
2016-02-04T16:03:10Z antoszka: np
2016-02-04T16:03:38Z micro___ is now known as micro_
2016-02-04T16:05:17Z hitecnologys: Is ESL going to be held the next year?
2016-02-04T16:05:41Z antoszka: hitecnologys: ELS, yes. Cracow.
2016-02-04T16:05:48Z antoszka: Ah, *next*
2016-02-04T16:05:52Z hitecnologys: Yep.
2016-02-04T16:06:04Z antoszka: sorry, yes, probably so, though it's gonna be decided at the ELS, I suppose :)
2016-02-04T16:06:07Z DeadTrickster: US please
2016-02-04T16:06:21Z antoszka: When US joins the EU, sure.
2016-02-04T16:06:37Z hitecnologys: Because this year I can't make it but the next one, if I'm extra lucky, I might just maybe possibly be able to attend the party.
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2016-02-04T16:07:57Z hitecnologys: At least by then I could even finish some of my projects to finally fit in.
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2016-02-04T16:08:59Z DeadTrickster: btw what kind of stuff is welcomed on ELS?
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2016-02-04T16:25:47Z antoszka: DeadTrickster: Just see the conference description, please.
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2016-02-04T16:27:45Z Shinmera: So who can actually make it to ELS?
2016-02-04T16:27:55Z Shinmera: I only know of beach, drmeister, and myself.
2016-02-04T16:28:18Z Xach_ does not intend to go
2016-02-04T16:28:28Z synchromesh: I'm planning to attend (from the UK).
2016-02-04T16:28:32Z antoszka: Shinmera: mrspec is expecting record attendance (~100?), so there must have been some more declarations.
2016-02-04T16:28:46Z synchromesh: Although I haven't signed up yet.
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2016-02-04T16:28:53Z antoszka: Shinmera: Though maybe he's just taking a wild guess≤
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2016-02-04T16:28:58Z antoszka: I'll be there.
2016-02-04T16:29:07Z mrSpec: antoszka: I'm just hoping! ;)
2016-02-04T16:29:08Z Shinmera: antoszka: Well registration isn't even open yet, so I don't know where these numbers would come from.
2016-02-04T16:29:25Z Shinmera: Xach_: Ah, too bad. Would have loved to meet you again!
2016-02-04T16:29:29Z antoszka: mrSpec: Yeah, where did you get the numbers from? :)
2016-02-04T16:29:44Z mrSpec: from nowhere ;)
2016-02-04T16:30:27Z drmeister: Hi!
2016-02-04T16:31:39Z drmeister: I got the go ahead to release CANDO.  CANDO is a scientific programming language focused on molecular and materials design.   It's built on top of Clasp, which is an implementation of Common Lisp (github.com/drmeister/clasp).
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2016-02-04T16:31:59Z antoszka: drmeister: Cool! Gotta give a talk about it on the Cracow ELS.
2016-02-04T16:32:25Z drmeister: This isn't an official announcement - that will come later.  But I've been going on about it for a long time here.
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2016-02-04T16:32:58Z drmeister: I am planning to write a paper - I've got two weeks (ugh).
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2016-02-04T16:45:15Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-04T16:45:43Z Shinmera: Hello beach.
2016-02-04T16:46:21Z beach: Shinmera: Long time no see!  Where have you been?
2016-02-04T16:46:28Z Shinmera: Trying to study and failing.
2016-02-04T16:46:38Z beach: :(
2016-02-04T16:46:43Z Shinmera: Exams are over now though so I can go back to doing what I do better; chatting and coding.
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2016-02-04T16:48:47Z moore33: Hi beach!
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2016-02-04T16:57:46Z drmeister: beach!  Hello.
2016-02-04T16:58:29Z drmeister: I've (with stassats help) largely succeeded in eliminating special variables from generic function dispatch.
2016-02-04T16:58:38Z beach: Excellent!
2016-02-04T16:58:48Z drmeister: I'm being tripped up by Cleavir's use of the APPEND method combination.
2016-02-04T16:59:01Z beach: Let me guess...
2016-02-04T16:59:11Z beach: It is not available during bootstrapping?
2016-02-04T16:59:29Z drmeister: I've got a mismatch between the number of required arguments and the number that are being passed in CLEAVIR-AST-TRANSFORMATIONS::CODEGEN-FINALIZE
2016-02-04T16:59:41Z drmeister: No - I think that's fine.
2016-02-04T17:01:03Z drmeister: The trick has been to eliminate the special variables used to store the combined-method-arguments and next-methods by passing those two values as arguments in situations where they were being looked up in the special variables.
2016-02-04T17:02:03Z beach: I see only one call to CODEGEN-FINALIZE in it has two arguments for two parameters.
2016-02-04T17:03:56Z drmeister: I've improved the Clasp backtraces and I can see what's going wrong but I haven't figured out how to fix it.
2016-02-04T17:04:25Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/bcd35d80fb519c826336
2016-02-04T17:06:27Z drmeister: Frame 42 It's APPLYing the three arguments (#<VA-LIST: (#<CLEAVIR-AST:PROGN-AST>)> 'NIL 'NIL) to a lambda that expects three arguments: (CLOS::.METHOD-ARGS. CLOS::.NEXT-METHODS. CLEAVIR-IO::OBJ  )
2016-02-04T17:07:07Z drmeister: Of course APPLY will treat the last argument as a list and since it's NIL only two arguments (#<VA-LIST: (#<CLEAVIR-AST:PROGN-AST>)> 'NIL ) are being passed to the lambda.
2016-02-04T17:07:10Z drmeister: Hence the error.
2016-02-04T17:07:27Z beach: I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.  Are you saying that in the Cleavir code, there is a call to CODEGEN-FINALIZE with the wrong number of arguments.  I don't see it.
2016-02-04T17:08:00Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-02-04T17:08:05Z drmeister: No - this is definitely a problem in CLOS code that I've been modifying.
2016-02-04T17:08:17Z drmeister: This stuff worked fine up until I made these changes.
2016-02-04T17:08:37Z drmeister: This is definitely my problem.   I'm bringing it up because I'm looking for help with my problem.
2016-02-04T17:08:42Z jdtest joined #lisp
2016-02-04T17:08:59Z drmeister: Insight, help, something - you know.  CLOS/MOP is tricky stuff.
2016-02-04T17:09:30Z beach: I am afraid I am not going to be of much help at this time of day.  I am wiped out from a full day of work.
2016-02-04T17:09:36Z drmeister: No problem.
2016-02-04T17:10:15Z drmeister: On another topic - my university gave me the copyright language I needed to open source CANDO.  So I'll put together a paper and flip the switch to open source it.
2016-02-04T17:10:39Z beach: Great news!
2016-02-04T17:10:49Z jfe: is there a way to embed newlines or other characters in strings?
2016-02-04T17:10:51Z drmeister: What kind of paper would you recommend to describe a new scientific programming language for molecular/materials design based on Common Lisp.
2016-02-04T17:11:26Z Shinmera: jfe: Put them in literally.
2016-02-04T17:11:28Z drmeister: Competitors are Julia and SVL (Scientific Vector Language, https://www.chemcomp.com/journal/svl.htm)
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2016-02-04T17:11:32Z beach: jfe: My preferred technique is #.(format nil "hello~%there")
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2016-02-04T17:12:16Z mtl_: how can I get functional call traces to show in emacs, when I'm connected through swank to an ncurses based app, and testing it?
2016-02-04T17:12:35Z mtl_: I can trace the functions and call them manually from the repl, but that's not that helpful
2016-02-04T17:12:47Z mtl_: if I trace them and use the interface, the trace output fucks up the interface
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2016-02-04T17:13:07Z moore33: drmeister: What do you think of Julia?
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2016-02-04T17:13:43Z jasom: drmeister: Don't forget about lush?
2016-02-04T17:13:56Z jasom: drmeister: http://lush.sourceforge.net/
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2016-02-04T17:15:28Z mtl_: I've looked at lots of various documentation without finding an answer to this
2016-02-04T17:15:58Z jasom: mtl_: you need to bind the output streams of your threads
2016-02-04T17:16:29Z mtl_: but if I do that, won't the curses interface end up in emacs as well?
2016-02-04T17:16:40Z jasom: mtl_: no *trace-output* is a separate stream
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2016-02-04T17:16:55Z mtl_: I see
2016-02-04T17:16:56Z drmeister: jasom: Thanks - I didn't know about lush.
2016-02-04T17:17:02Z jasom: or rather a separate variable which can point to a separate stream
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2016-02-04T17:18:14Z mtl_: jasom: get this to work would make my life easier by powers of magnitude
2016-02-04T17:18:18Z mtl_: getting*
2016-02-04T17:18:26Z jasom: mtl_: I know, it's a PITA
2016-02-04T17:18:55Z jasom: If your threads are some sort of event loop, you can query some global variable and set the *trace-output* every run of the loop
2016-02-04T17:19:11Z jasom: then you can set that global from slime
2016-02-04T17:20:43Z mtl_: yeah at the moment it's just a simple event loop getting key input from curses
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2016-02-04T17:21:36Z mtl_: so, I dynamically bind *trace-output* to some stream in in the swank package?
2016-02-04T17:21:44Z mtl_: or am I getting the wrong idea
2016-02-04T17:22:54Z jasom: mtl_: no, dynamic bindings are thread-local typically
2016-02-04T17:23:22Z mtl_: assignment then?
2016-02-04T17:23:32Z jasom: mtl_: and since you are connecting to slime *after* starting your threads (I assume) you'll need to set the variable from within your thread
2016-02-04T17:24:12Z mtl_: you assume correctly
2016-02-04T17:24:53Z jasom: I *think* that all of the standard streams are bound by default by either bordeaux-threads or the sbcl native threads, since a simple assignment from slime doesn't appear to affect them for me
2016-02-04T17:25:25Z mtl_: so something along the lines of (setf *trace-output* swank::*trace-output*)
2016-02-04T17:25:35Z jasom: mtl_: right
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2016-02-04T17:25:43Z mtl_: alright, let me try it
2016-02-04T17:25:46Z jasom: if there is a swank::*trace-output*
2016-02-04T17:25:52Z jasom: if not, make your own with defvar
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2016-02-04T17:26:04Z mtl_: jasom: there is, I checked :)
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2016-02-04T17:28:49Z mtl_: ok, moment of truth...
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2016-02-04T17:31:37Z mtl_: jasom: no cigar
2016-02-04T17:31:47Z jasom: mtl_: 1 second
2016-02-04T17:32:13Z mtl_: jasom: i put it right after create-server
2016-02-04T17:32:40Z jasom: mtl_: no, do that every loop of your event loop
2016-02-04T17:34:00Z jasom: oh, swank::*trace-output* is just cl::*trace-output*
2016-02-04T17:34:13Z mtl_: hah
2016-02-04T17:34:20Z mtl_: well that's no good
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2016-02-04T17:35:35Z jasom: (defvar *my-trace-output* *trace-output*) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop (setf *trace-output* *my-trace-output*) (sleep 1) (foo))))
2016-02-04T17:35:38Z jasom: the above works
2016-02-04T17:36:18Z jasom: though you'll need to set *my-trace-output* to something sane before disconnecting if you have any traced functions
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2016-02-04T17:37:30Z mtl_: right now, I'm just doing create-server from my main function and then going straight into the event loop
2016-02-04T17:37:40Z mtl_: maybe I should've made that clear
2016-02-04T17:37:55Z pareidolia: Is there a paredit function to pull in dangling close-parens? slime-reindent-defun doesn't do it for me
2016-02-04T17:38:08Z mtl_: I'm not creating an event loop thread, since there's nothing else going on right now, other than half a mockup interface
2016-02-04T17:38:19Z jasom: mtl_: right
2016-02-04T17:38:50Z jasom: (create-server ...) (defvar *my-trace-output* *trace-output*) (loop (setf *trace-output* *my-trace-output*) ...)
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2016-02-04T17:39:01Z jasom: mtl_: I created the thread to let me do it straight from emacs
2016-02-04T17:39:09Z mtl_: ah, i see
2016-02-04T17:39:48Z mtl_ is not too accustomed to dealing with threads
2016-02-04T17:40:24Z jasom: mtl_: they are a pain in the rear and typically not worth it, but for implementing a debug server, they do have useful properties
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2016-02-04T17:40:57Z mtl_: jasom: eventually I'll have separate client windows for trace-output, interactive debugger, repl and such
2016-02-04T17:41:02Z mtl_: so that I don't need swank
2016-02-04T17:41:10Z mtl_: to poke around with it
2016-02-04T17:41:11Z jasom: mtl_: I tend to try and avoid them in my applications in favor of multiprocessing.  Mutable shared state is a recipe for bugs.
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2016-02-04T17:41:23Z mtl_: yeah
2016-02-04T17:41:34Z mtl_: if i'll be doing threading I'll learn something like clojure
2016-02-04T17:41:36Z mtl_: and use that :)
2016-02-04T17:41:38Z mtl_: seems much more sane
2016-02-04T17:41:43Z phoe_krk: ,eval :test
2016-02-04T17:42:06Z jasom: mtl_: if you use something like calispel and avoid assigning to specials, then you do have sane multithreading
2016-02-04T17:42:11Z drmeister: beach: Sorry to bug you again - you warned me a couple of months ago that the CLHS requires that certain CLOS functions are passed lists of arguments.   I've implemented an optimization for passing lists of arguments as C var-args lists and I'm trying to recall what you warned me about so I can match it up to what I'm contemplating doing to speed up APPLY
2016-02-04T17:42:11Z drmeister: for method combinations.
2016-02-04T17:42:16Z drmeister: Sorry to be so vague.
2016-02-04T17:42:21Z jasom: mtl_: and for just getting easy parallelism, something like lparallel isn't bad
2016-02-04T17:42:44Z phoe_krk: pjb: is COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-READER.READER::UNQUOTE defined in your reader? Or is it just #lisp-pl's ood bot being weirdly configured?
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2016-02-04T17:43:06Z mtl_: still, there is something more attractive about a language designed from the ground up for threading, parallelism, and all that jazz
2016-02-04T17:44:28Z jasom: My dad got his master's degree in CS in the 80s; Hoare's CSP was required reading.  He said 2/3 of the class didn't understand it and 2/3 of the remainder thought the problems it addressed were overblown.  The 8/9 of the class that thought that way then went on to write gobs of buggy multithreaded code for the next couple decads.
2016-02-04T17:45:08Z mtl_: jasom: oh, I finally understand why I need to do in the loop
2016-02-04T17:45:10Z mtl_: slow brain today...
2016-02-04T17:45:29Z mtl_: because whatever stream I'm setting it to changes when I connect with slime
2016-02-04T17:45:35Z jasom: mtl_: correct
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2016-02-04T17:47:33Z drmeister: Ho ho - I solved the APPEND method combination problem.
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2016-02-04T17:53:07Z jackdaniel: Xach_: are you around?
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2016-02-04T17:59:35Z pareidolia: When I do browse-system in emacs with a remote swank, it doesn't work (big surprise) is there an official strategy?
2016-02-04T18:01:56Z drmeister: I will write a paper for ELS based on this paper describing Julia:   http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.1607
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2016-02-04T18:06:16Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I've successfully converted the ECL CLOS code away from using special variables to using passed variables.
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2016-02-04T18:10:17Z phoe_krk: drmeister: is it Lisp code? or did you have to dive down into C?
2016-02-04T18:10:32Z jackdaniel: drmeister: grats
2016-02-04T18:10:34Z drmeister: It is Lisp code.
2016-02-04T18:10:45Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: clasp doesn't share C code with ECL, only lisp parts
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2016-02-04T18:11:40Z phoe_krk: Got it.
2016-02-04T18:11:46Z phoe_krk: But yes, grats!
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2016-02-04T18:25:57Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: I'm seeing that you just submitted your cl-events package to QL, which is funny because I submitted my own event delivery system just now too. https://github.com/Shinmera/deeds
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2016-02-04T18:29:31Z beach: drmeister: I don't recall warning.  I was just saying that the MOP says that BY DEFAULT, arguments are passed in a list.  But I think it is allowed to optimize under certain circumstances.  It is pretty vague about it though.
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2016-02-04T18:31:03Z drmeister: Ok - thanks.
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2016-02-04T18:31:47Z learning: Is there a go to library for relational/sql databases? It doesn't really matter to me whether it's MySQL, sqlite, postgres, etc, as long as it works and is portable
2016-02-04T18:31:59Z Shinmera: Postmodern for postgres
2016-02-04T18:32:11Z dlowe: postmodern is very nice
2016-02-04T18:32:17Z Shinmera: Otherwise, cl-sqlite for sqlite (though it's unmaintained :( )
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2016-02-04T18:32:29Z learning: i like that face :( )
2016-02-04T18:32:55Z Shinmera: Otherwise, have a lookie here http://www.cliki.net/SQL
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2016-02-04T18:34:17Z learning: ye i was looking at cliki. i wish cliki links could be ordered by last git update, most stars, etc
2016-02-04T18:34:38Z Shinmera: We all wished a lot of things about cliki
2016-02-04T18:34:44Z learning: its a pain in the neck going through 30 links where 90% of the projects are deprecated
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2016-02-04T18:36:04Z learning: i have a project where i'm using structs to organize data
2016-02-04T18:36:15Z learning: and i realized i was just reinventing the database
2016-02-04T18:36:47Z Shinmera: Well there's no need to go fully SQL either.
2016-02-04T18:36:57Z Shinmera: There's several object stores out there too
2016-02-04T18:37:10Z learning: i just need 1 table with like ~6 columns
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2016-02-04T18:37:36Z Shinmera: Maybe give https://github.com/Wukix/LambdaLite a shot then.
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2016-02-04T20:06:10Z emaczen: I can't seem to figure out a good way to insert loop forms with cl-who. I'm not sure why I can't do something like: (:div :id "grid-container" (loop for i from 1 to 16 collect (:button :class "grid-button" "*")))
2016-02-04T20:06:54Z _death: you need (who:htm (:button :class ...))
2016-02-04T20:07:03Z jackdaniel: ↑
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2016-02-04T20:07:24Z _death: (and use DO)
2016-02-04T20:07:41Z emaczen: _death: That still gives me errors
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2016-02-04T20:07:51Z emaczen: I have another div above that...
2016-02-04T20:07:58Z emaczen: Am i using it incorrectly?
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2016-02-04T20:08:25Z _death: paste the code
2016-02-04T20:08:49Z jasom: (cl-who:with-html-output (*standard-output*) (:div :id "grid-container" (loop for i from 1 to 16 do (cl-who:htm (:button :class "grid-button" "*"))))) <-- works for me
2016-02-04T20:09:17Z jackdaniel: (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (s) (:b "hi" (dotimes (v 3) (cl-who:htm (:i "hi"))))) ;; for me too
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2016-02-04T20:16:24Z pareidolia: Is there a way to parse a string format-style?
2016-02-04T20:16:47Z jasom: pareidolia: nothing builtin; what are you trying to do?
2016-02-04T20:17:34Z emaczen: Why did you both use *standard-output*?
2016-02-04T20:17:38Z pareidolia: I have a line like "0000000080010160 00 KEY_OK devinput
2016-02-04T20:17:55Z pareidolia: I want the integers and the strings :)
2016-02-04T20:17:58Z jasom: emaczen: we didn't both use it, only me.  I used *standard-output* to ensure that the output was expected
2016-02-04T20:18:55Z jasom: pareidolia: *if* you can trust the input, then READ will probably work for that, otherwise use a parsing library of some sort (e.g. esrap)
2016-02-04T20:19:35Z pareidolia: Wow that's extreme
2016-02-04T20:19:53Z pareidolia: Nice!
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2016-02-04T20:20:02Z jasom: well you can use parse-integer and split-sequence to parse it by hand
2016-02-04T20:20:55Z pareidolia: Does parse-integer take hex without the #x ?
2016-02-04T20:20:58Z emaczen: jasom: Ok, I see now that it works -- what I am actually failling to do is get it to work inside the brwoser
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2016-02-04T20:21:01Z Xach_: pareidolia: yes
2016-02-04T20:21:21Z emaczen: What/where is the stream after you start a server with hunchentoot?
2016-02-04T20:21:22Z jasom: pareidolia: yes, there is a :radix keyword argument
2016-02-04T20:21:40Z pareidolia: I'll do a split, destructuring bind, make-instance
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2016-02-04T20:22:40Z Xach_: pareidolia: you don't need to split to get the numbers. parse-integer takes start and end keywords.
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2016-02-04T20:23:09Z jasom: I think split is simpler, but Xach_ is correct
2016-02-04T20:24:08Z pareidolia: Yo mean I could use the fixed positions
2016-02-04T20:24:29Z pareidolia: Performance is not that important
2016-02-04T20:24:43Z pareidolia: Btw I'm making a CL version of http://tardyp.free.fr/plircc/
2016-02-04T20:27:08Z Fare: aren't there enough irc clients in CL?
2016-02-04T20:27:35Z dlowe: I'm only aware of one?
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2016-02-04T20:27:59Z Shinmera: There's cl-irc, trivial-irc, colleen, colleen3, and at least one other.
2016-02-04T20:28:21Z Shinmera: colleen3 being in development this very moment (though the IRC component is complete already), whoah!
2016-02-04T20:28:28Z dlowe: those... aren't clients.
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2016-02-04T20:28:37Z dlowe: there's beirc
2016-02-04T20:29:05Z Shinmera: Ah, well, however you put it. They're client libraries, I suppose.
2016-02-04T20:30:16Z dlowe: anyway, this isn't IRC, this is LIRC protocols for infrared remote controls :p
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2016-02-04T20:31:09Z Shinmera: That much is certainly true.
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2016-02-04T20:34:29Z emaczen: With hunchentoot, what can I use as the stream for with-html-output to display in a browser?
2016-02-04T20:35:11Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, your lib is way to complex
2016-02-04T20:35:21Z DeadTrickster: I'm not sure with solve the same problem
2016-02-04T20:35:26Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: depends on your usage scenario.
2016-02-04T20:35:43Z Shinmera: I wasn't trying to say that they're the same thing, but they're of a similar nature.
2016-02-04T20:36:14Z DeadTrickster: I created mine because I needed to send 'notifications' when amqp event like channel closed or message arrived occurs
2016-02-04T20:36:43Z Shinmera: I see.
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2016-02-04T20:37:23Z DeadTrickster: and I needed the same 'syntax' for different environments (blocking/non-blocking) as well as being able to select executor at runtime
2016-02-04T20:38:25Z Shinmera: Deeds was created because I needed a generic system to coordinate intricate event exchanges.
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2016-02-04T20:39:08Z DeadTrickster: sounds like UI loops or something
2016-02-04T20:40:38Z mtl_: I actually am making an irc client
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2016-02-04T20:40:55Z mtl_: there's beirc, but that has a GUI
2016-02-04T20:41:07Z mtl_: which I find completely superfluous for irc purposes
2016-02-04T20:41:13Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, so you introduce kind of 'sink' thread so publisher never waits/blocks and all dispatching takes place in it, right?
2016-02-04T20:41:23Z DeadTrickster: sounds reasonable for busy envs
2016-02-04T20:41:44Z DeadTrickster: looks like loggers though )
2016-02-04T20:41:49Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: the event loop that delivers events has a separate thread so that the issuing thread is never blocked, yes.
2016-02-04T20:42:13Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: each handler may or may not have separate threads additionally however, as to not block the event loop.
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2016-02-04T20:43:18Z DeadTrickster: yeah I see the only similar thing in cl-event is pooled-executor which executes all handlers in lparallel pool
2016-02-04T20:44:29Z mtl_: I might develop a native lisp TUI library in parallel though, since my patience with cl-charms is growing thin
2016-02-04T20:44:47Z mtl_: so maybe i'll be able to fill a hole in the process
2016-02-04T20:45:17Z Shinmera: mtl_: Which client library are you using?
2016-02-04T20:45:34Z mtl_: Shinmera: I've yet to make a decision about that
2016-02-04T20:45:49Z Shinmera: Ok
2016-02-04T20:45:56Z mtl_: so far it's just a not-yet finished mock-up interface
2016-02-04T20:46:08Z mtl_: this whole curses business has been giving me a lot of friction
2016-02-04T20:46:23Z pareidolia: Is it possible to print a presentation directly to Emacs? I can only get presentations as return values at the moment
2016-02-04T20:46:24Z Shinmera: I'd really love it if someone would make a frontend for Colleen3, but unfortunately I'm in the middle of everything on that.
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2016-02-04T20:46:50Z Shinmera: So, probably not the best idea to jump onto that steam train.
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2016-02-04T20:47:24Z mtl_: Shinmera: don't say that, I'm working probably orders of magnitude slower than you at the moment :D
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2016-02-04T20:47:59Z Shinmera: Who knows.
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2016-02-04T20:48:05Z mtl_: and if I'm ditching curses, a working interface is gonna be pushed back further
2016-02-04T20:48:26Z mtl_: cause I'll have to figure out how to implement TUI
2016-02-04T20:48:26Z mtl_: :P
2016-02-04T20:48:26Z Shinmera: Either way, the benefit of going with Colleen3 would be that it's designed to have an arbitrary number of "clients" so that you could host it on a server and connect from (hopefully sometime) your phone, pc, etc at the same time.
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2016-02-04T20:48:51Z mtl_: so, along the lines of a bnc?
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2016-02-04T20:49:23Z Shinmera: Well, kinda.
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2016-02-04T20:50:05Z Shinmera: It isn't restricted to IRC, so a "bouncer" is not necessarily the best comparison.
2016-02-04T20:50:09Z mtl_: like something inbetween a bnc and something like urxvtd
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2016-02-04T20:50:54Z Shinmera: Colleen3's core is just a fancy event delivery system, to which multiple clients can be connected. A client could be a connection to an IRC server, or some form of graphical or remote user interface.
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2016-02-04T20:51:27Z Shinmera: You tell it which kind of events you want, and it'll deliver them to you.
2016-02-04T20:51:44Z Shinmera: Similarly if you want to send stuff out, you just send an event back.
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2016-02-04T20:52:31Z Shinmera: That's the idea, anyway. Gonna be a while until it's going to live up to that.
2016-02-04T20:52:52Z mtl_: that sounds neat
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2016-02-04T20:53:23Z Shinmera: Lots of ideas sound neat. The hard part is making it happen in a way that's usable :)
2016-02-04T20:53:36Z mtl_: indeed :)
2016-02-04T20:54:02Z mtl_: Shinmera: so, what would, say, a tui colleen3 frontend look like?
2016-02-04T20:54:45Z mtl_: compared to using something conceptually simpler like cl-irc, say
2016-02-04T20:55:09Z Shinmera: Well, there's hardly a difference if you want to use it for just a locally running irc client and nothing more.
2016-02-04T20:55:26Z Shinmera: Just like cl-irc you define handlers on the types of events you want, and those functions get invoked when an event arrives.
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2016-02-04T20:55:57Z jasom: Shinmera: where is colleen3 hosted?  your github repo says 2.2
2016-02-04T20:56:06Z Shinmera: jasom: It's on the v3 branch
2016-02-04T20:56:13Z Shinmera: Since it's heavily in flux.
2016-02-04T20:56:59Z Shinmera: mtl_: Conceptually, if you want to instead use a remote Colleen3 "server" you could then instead of the irc-client system load the remote-client system and connect to that to receive events through it.
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2016-02-04T21:05:02Z Shinmera: Anyway, there's a lot of things to take into account, so it'll be a while before I would deem it suitable for outside use.
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2016-02-04T21:06:08Z mtl_: Shinmera: for now, I think, the scope of my plans will stay quite limited
2016-02-04T21:06:17Z mtl_: I started out just wanting irssi but not irssi
2016-02-04T21:06:35Z Shinmera: There's weechat if you haven't tried that yet.
2016-02-04T21:06:43Z Shinmera: But I feel you, none of the term clients quite do it for me either.
2016-02-04T21:07:22Z mtl_: I've not, and looking at it quickly, it's part of the way there for sure
2016-02-04T21:07:46Z mtl_: I want mah lisp though :P
2016-02-04T21:07:54Z Shinmera: Understandable :)
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2016-02-04T21:08:24Z mordocai: I would say i'd love a common lisp IRC client but I love emacs so i'd probably stick with erc.
2016-02-04T21:08:56Z mtl_: yeah, I just put up with emacs
2016-02-04T21:08:59Z mtl_: hehe
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2016-02-04T21:09:25Z Shinmera: For me being able to check stuff on the phone is essential, and weechat can do that, albeit suboptimally.
2016-02-04T21:09:45Z Shinmera: Hence the desire to lay a solid foundation for this kind of thing in Colleen3
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2016-02-04T21:14:02Z mtl_: irssi does that too, althought *very* suboptimally
2016-02-04T21:14:25Z Shinmera: I didn't know it had an android client
2016-02-04T21:14:27Z mtl_: android ssh client... etc
2016-02-04T21:14:50Z mtl_: oh, it doesn't
2016-02-04T21:14:53Z ralt: Shinmera: I've been using Shout for a couple of weeks now http://shout-irc.com/
2016-02-04T21:15:02Z ralt: it's nice, the mobile version is nice too
2016-02-04T21:15:08Z mtl_: you can still use it over ssh though, if you really have to
2016-02-04T21:15:11Z ralt: it doesn't have an irc bnc though, only web
2016-02-04T21:16:04Z Shinmera: ralt: I don't see an app mentioned anywhere.
2016-02-04T21:16:49Z Shinmera: mtl_: I'd rather not.
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2016-02-04T21:17:29Z mtl_: Shinmera: there used to be a version of connectbot specialised for issi
2016-02-04T21:17:31Z mtl_: irssi*
2016-02-04T21:17:37Z Shinmera: mtl_: Oh dear.
2016-02-04T21:17:43Z mtl_: that let you scroll up and down and to the sides
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2016-02-04T21:17:54Z mtl_: it was borderline usable if your screen was big enough
2016-02-04T21:18:11Z Shinmera: The weechat android app is nice. It's actually the best IRC client interface I've used on a phone.
2016-02-04T21:18:25Z mordocai: Thanks for letting me know about http://lispblog.xach.com/post/138667931963/lisp-and-webassembly Xach_
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2016-02-04T21:24:14Z mtl_: Shinmera: anyway, I'll probably contact you when I'm ready for my client to actually do irc, just to see where you're at, if nothing else
2016-02-04T21:25:08Z Shinmera: mtl_: sure!
2016-02-04T21:25:12Z mtl_: and if you want a simple tui frontend to colleen3 I'm definitely open to that :)
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2016-02-04T21:28:20Z mtl_: as for your fancy stuff, I'll just have to see how adventurous I feel :P
2016-02-04T21:28:48Z Shinmera: Heh.
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2016-02-04T21:29:05Z mtl_: (taking my original goals into account)
2016-02-04T21:29:06Z mtl_: hehe
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2016-02-04T21:30:00Z mtl_: Shinmera: if what you want is just the tui part of various frontends to your fancy stuff, I'm open to that as well
2016-02-04T21:30:23Z Shinmera: I'll be sure to get back to you once I have something presentable.
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2016-02-04T21:44:27Z pareidolia: Hmm. I should be studying right now
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2016-02-04T21:51:19Z DeadTrickster: is it ok when there is no asdf:system-version?
2016-02-04T21:51:29Z DeadTrickster: I have to do (slot-value (asdf:find-system ...) 'asdf::version)
2016-02-04T21:51:45Z Shinmera: It's asdf:component-version
2016-02-04T21:51:50Z DeadTrickster: oh
2016-02-04T21:52:29Z DeadTrickster: If system is already loaded find-system will not search for asd file right?
2016-02-04T21:52:45Z Shinmera: I don't think so.
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2016-02-04T21:53:57Z DeadTrickster: ok one more question: how to get current operation system name?
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2016-02-04T21:55:25Z DeadTrickster: operating
2016-02-04T21:55:28Z DeadTrickster: of course
2016-02-04T21:55:53Z DeadTrickster: (software-type)
2016-02-04T21:56:06Z DeadTrickster: who is in charge of this naming?
2016-02-04T21:56:22Z ralt: Shinmera: I use the web interface only. The mobile part is just a responsive UI
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2016-02-04T21:56:32Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: the implementation.
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2016-02-04T21:57:10Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, I mean why software-type? why not operating-system-name
2016-02-04T21:57:29Z DeadTrickster: well it is kind of rhetoric question of course
2016-02-04T21:57:36Z DeadTrickster: but anyway
2016-02-04T21:57:41Z p_l: DeadTrickster: different vocabulady from a more elegant time
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2016-02-04T21:57:48Z Shinmera: It doesn't necessarily have to be the OS name anyway.
2016-02-04T21:57:56Z DeadTrickster: of course not
2016-02-04T21:58:08Z Shinmera: You might have more luck using something like trivial-features and the windows/linux/darwin feature flags it provides.
2016-02-04T21:58:16Z p_l: Imagine that it used to be that core component of an OS would be called "monitor", not kernel
2016-02-04T21:58:46Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, I just need to compose fancy version string but thanks for the hint anyway
2016-02-04T21:59:21Z DeadTrickster: p_l, what is the name of windows kernel?
2016-02-04T21:59:31Z jackdaniel: (string-concatenate "Awesome " (software-name) " - The Ultimate Edition") ;-)
2016-02-04T22:00:02Z DeadTrickster: nah standard requires os name
2016-02-04T22:00:41Z DeadTrickster: anyway my pre-alpha iolib-based amqp client is almost complete
2016-02-04T22:00:49Z DeadTrickster: performance is excellent I should say
2016-02-04T22:01:01Z DeadTrickster: I have many cleanups to do though
2016-02-04T22:01:17Z DeadTrickster: I hope people will be interested in this
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2016-02-04T22:03:51Z DeadTrickster: especially considering one can actually build it and it's MIT licensed
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2016-02-04T22:08:33Z pareidolia: Umm it's (software-type)
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2016-02-04T22:09:01Z jasom: DeadTrickster: windows kernel is named something like "NT <version>"
2016-02-04T22:09:06Z jasom: e.g. vista is NT 6.0
2016-02-04T22:09:17Z pareidolia: XP 5.1
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2016-02-04T22:09:26Z pareidolia: 2000 5.0
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2016-02-04T22:10:27Z DeadTrickster: on windows software-type on sbcl returns Win32
2016-02-04T22:10:41Z pareidolia: Just "Linux" here
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2016-02-04T22:11:59Z p_l: DeadTrickster: NT kernel is literally "ntkernel.dll" iirc
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2016-02-04T22:12:39Z p_l: also, NT kernel version doesn't match 1-1 to marketing name
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2016-02-04T22:13:48Z jasom: some versions of XP use NT 5.2
2016-02-04T22:13:56Z jasom: specifically the 64 bit ones
2016-02-04T22:14:05Z p_l: (for example, there are two "XP" that not only use different kernel but are actually two diff. versions)
2016-02-04T22:15:05Z p_l: jasom: funnier, there's 64bit 5.1 and 64bit 5.2, both XP
2016-02-04T22:15:35Z p_l: the former is iirc the IA64 build
2016-02-04T22:15:51Z prion_: I dream of a world when windows and Ios have been burried, liberty winning on money
2016-02-04T22:16:00Z prion_: then I wake up
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2016-02-04T22:16:46Z pareidolia: It's fun looking at the historic examples of software-type, machine-type in CLHS
2016-02-04T22:16:57Z p_l: XP/ia64 is afaik a white crow harder to get than Windows 2000 for Alpha
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2016-02-04T23:18:43Z didi: I just realized that `max' doesn't work on sequences.
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2016-02-04T23:20:15Z pillton: What would you expect it to do?
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2016-02-04T23:22:05Z |3b|: (reduce 'max ...)?
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2016-02-04T23:25:16Z didi: |3b|: Nice.
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2016-02-04T23:27:27Z pillton: Does someone have a function which performs the same actions as defpackage?
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2016-02-04T23:28:08Z Bike: i think asdf/uiop has one
2016-02-04T23:28:53Z Bike: uiop:ensure-package
2016-02-04T23:29:03Z pillton: Bah. I didn't even think to look there.
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2016-02-04T23:30:27Z pillton: Eeek.. 99 line funcion.
2016-02-04T23:30:39Z Bike: uiop broh
2016-02-04T23:30:43Z didi: Shoot one. What do you have?
2016-02-04T23:30:56Z didi: A 98 line function.
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2016-02-04T23:32:07Z pillton: Hmmm.. It doesn't defer to the implementation.
2016-02-04T23:32:27Z Bike: well, yeah. if you wanted that just use whatever defpackage macroexpands to.
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2016-02-04T23:49:20Z arnaudga: hi, I'm stuck with some code, I use SLIME/SBCL but I can't figure out to instrument my code to debug and "step by step" in
2016-02-04T23:50:03Z didi: arnaudga: I don't know about step by step, but I could take a look at your code if it is not too much.
2016-02-04T23:51:00Z arnaudga: this is nice but I thinnk it will be too much
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2016-02-04T23:51:28Z arnaudga: And I would like to be able to debug it by my owne
2016-02-04T23:51:31Z pillton: arnaudga: Stepping in common lisp is complicated. I would suggest debugging it a different way.
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2016-02-04T23:52:07Z arnaudga: ok :)
2016-02-04T23:52:09Z pillton: For example, I use a combination of unit tests, trace and print.
2016-02-04T23:52:40Z arnaudga: with sbcl ? cause this is not clear in the documentation
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2016-02-04T23:52:53Z pillton: clhs trace
2016-02-04T23:52:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm
2016-02-04T23:52:56Z pillton: clhs print
2016-02-04T23:52:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2016-02-04T23:53:14Z pillton: For unit tests I've used FiveAM and lisp-unit. There are plenty to choose from.
2016-02-04T23:53:39Z arnaudga: this is the best currently the practice ?
2016-02-04T23:53:55Z arnaudga: this is the best practice currently ?
2016-02-04T23:54:36Z pillton: I don't know. There are many issues. Macro expansion, whether the code is compiled, what declarations are in affect.
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2016-02-04T23:55:08Z arnaudga: I don't use macro for the time
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2016-02-04T23:55:44Z arnaudga: thanks for the links, I will see
2016-02-04T23:55:55Z pillton: There is also format.
2016-02-04T23:55:57Z pillton: clhs format
2016-02-04T23:55:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm
2016-02-04T23:56:48Z pillton: Oh. I forgot break.
2016-02-04T23:56:50Z pillton: clhs break
2016-02-04T23:56:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm
2016-02-04T23:58:22Z axion: http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
2016-02-05T00:00:05Z arnaudga: ok thanks
2016-02-05T00:02:06Z axion: if you use sly, you can also make use of the stickers contrib, which allows you to annotate forms and query their value at any time without modifying the code. basically, it replaces littering ur code with print/format/whatever
2016-02-05T00:02:21Z axion: your*
2016-02-05T00:02:55Z axion: ssh is dropping keys for me lately :/
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2016-02-05T00:30:05Z kadico: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-02-05T01:22:06Z dptd: Finally joined this channel from emacs!
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2016-02-05T01:57:59Z kadico: nice one dptd
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2016-02-05T02:16:41Z loke: Good morning lisp!
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2016-02-05T02:23:22Z Shinmera: Hello loke
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2016-02-05T02:25:45Z drmeister: `Generic function dispatch in Clasp no longer conses.
2016-02-05T02:25:48Z loke: Hello Shinmera
2016-02-05T02:25:55Z loke: hello drmeister
2016-02-05T02:26:05Z loke still dreams of the day he can try clasp
2016-02-05T02:26:07Z drmeister: Doing some timing of compilations
2016-02-05T02:26:23Z drmeister dreams of when clasp will support llvm3.7
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2016-02-05T02:26:48Z drmeister: You could downgrade to llvm3.6
2016-02-05T02:27:06Z drmeister: Or, let's meet half-way at llvm3.65
2016-02-05T02:27:14Z loke: drmeister: Actually, I can't. Well, I
2016-02-05T02:27:24Z loke: I'd have to build it separately and stuff.
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2016-02-05T03:58:29Z drmeister: Eliminating consing from generic function dispatch cut compilation time in half.
2016-02-05T03:58:37Z Bike: wow, nice.
2016-02-05T03:59:20Z drmeister: Compiling ASDF now takes 577 seconds when previously it took 1020 seconds.
2016-02-05T03:59:38Z drmeister: Still - that's a lot of seconds
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2016-02-05T04:05:00Z drmeister: It cut down the amount of memory allocated during the compilation to 1/3 of what it was when generic functions were consing.
2016-02-05T04:06:42Z drmeister: It was 65 GB and now is 21.8 GB
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2016-02-05T04:13:03Z drmeister: minion: memo for stassats: Compiling ASDF with cclasp now takes 577 seconds when previously it took 1020 seconds. The memory consed during compilation is now 21.8 GB when previously it was 65 GB.  Slime compiles fine.
2016-02-05T04:13:03Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-05T05:08:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-05T05:10:44Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to the performance improvement!
2016-02-05T05:11:16Z drmeister: Thanks
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2016-02-05T05:15:52Z beach: So when and how are we going to be able to see CANDO?
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2016-02-05T08:04:41Z loke: I need to read multipart uploads in Hunchentoot (not form-encoded)
2016-02-05T08:04:45Z loke: Is there a way I can do that?
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2016-02-05T13:32:13Z didi: (ppcre:split "\\W+" " foo") => ("" "foo") but I want ("foo"), i.e. I want to split a string into words.
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2016-02-05T13:33:47Z didi: I thought trailing empty strings were eliminated. "If limit is NIL (or 0 which is equivalent), trailing empty strings are removed from the result list."
2016-02-05T13:34:41Z splittist: mtl_: do you have an idea of what the api to tui might look like? I'm doing something with curses at the moment but want to be able to support other (text/terminal-based) approaches.
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2016-02-05T13:35:31Z splittist: (Of course, this is all displacement activity from actually adding functionality...)
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2016-02-05T13:53:38Z didi: I am doing (remove "" (ppcre:split "\\W+" " foo") :test 'string=) but this doesn't feel right.
2016-02-05T13:56:37Z Cymew:  (UIOP/UTILITY:SPLIT-STRING " foo") does return the same
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2016-02-05T14:12:20Z jdz: didi: you know you can write your own function if ppcre:split does not do what you want?
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2016-02-05T14:13:56Z didi: jdz: Sure.
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2016-02-05T14:15:02Z jdz: split-sequence:split-sequence has a remove-empty-subseqs parameter
2016-02-05T14:15:30Z didi: I am not familiar with `split-sequence', but good to know.
2016-02-05T14:15:35Z jdz: and ppcre:split has this note: "This function also tries hard to be Perl-compatible - thus the somewhat peculiar behaviour."
2016-02-05T14:15:54Z didi: Indeed it has.
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2016-02-05T14:17:12Z dlowe: didi: don't you want (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "\\w+" " foo")
2016-02-05T14:17:39Z dlowe: sometimes it's easier to ask for what you want than what you don't want :)
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2016-02-05T14:18:00Z didi: dlowe: Uh, nice. Thank you.
2016-02-05T14:18:10Z didi: dlowe: I thought I did in my first message.
2016-02-05T14:18:54Z dlowe: (ppcre:split "\\W+" " foo") gives a different result
2016-02-05T14:19:02Z didi: Indeed it does.
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2016-02-05T14:19:57Z dlowe: Sorry, I mean it's easier to ask the regex engine for what you want i.e. characters matching words
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2016-02-05T14:20:07Z dlowe: that must have seemed rude :p
2016-02-05T14:20:28Z didi hugs dlowe 
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2016-02-05T14:46:57Z mtl_: splittist: not currently, no, although I've been having a peek at urwid(http://urwid.org/) as a possible inspiration
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2016-02-05T14:50:42Z splittist: mtl_: OK. A bit higher level than I was thinking of - I think I want to manage my own event loops.
2016-02-05T14:51:20Z mtl_: splittist: early day still, I'm just trying to look at what something that isn't ncurses is doing, right now
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2016-02-05T14:51:23Z mtl_: :)
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2016-02-05T14:52:53Z mtl_: splittist: I'm definitely open to suggestions as well
2016-02-05T14:52:56Z splittist: mtl_: it does look fascinating, though. I can certainly see uses I could put it to for things in my dream-queue of projects (:
2016-02-05T14:53:52Z mtl_: splittist: are you using cl-charms?
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2016-02-05T14:57:47Z splittist: mtl_: croatoan then converting to cl-charms
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2016-02-05T14:59:17Z mtl_: splittist: I've somehow missed croatoan in my search for libraries
2016-02-05T15:00:54Z mtl_: splittist: I dunno why you'd move to cl-charms
2016-02-05T15:01:26Z mtl_: briefly looking at croatoan, it seems more complete than cl-charms already, in terms of higher level wrappers
2016-02-05T15:01:27Z warweasle: I'm reading Patrick Stein's article about Clean Architecture and I'm curious, how does this differ from the ideas in the book "Thinking Forth"?
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2016-02-05T15:02:23Z warweasle: It just looks like they give names to the levels of decomposition.
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2016-02-05T15:07:34Z dlowe: that post is pretty long. I haven't read it with my full attention yet.
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2016-02-05T15:27:59Z Shinmera: Does anyone have a recommended library for encoding objects to send over the network? I've looked at cl-conspack, but unfortunately it's unsuitable for my use case since it only allows adding en/decoding functions for specific clos classes. I need to be able to write a generic method that covers many subclasses 'automagically'.
2016-02-05T15:28:30Z Shinmera: I could just use print/read of course, but I'm just gauging my options here.
2016-02-05T15:29:46Z antoszka: Suppose most anything from http://www.cliki.net/serialization could be helpful.
2016-02-05T15:30:03Z antoszka: cl-marshal looks sensible to me, though I've never used any of those.
2016-02-05T15:30:40Z dlowe: You could use protobufs
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2016-02-05T15:31:05Z dlowe: also, cl-store is rumored to work well
2016-02-05T15:31:08Z Shinmera: Don't protobufs require predefined schemas/classes or something like that?
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2016-02-05T15:31:38Z dlowe: yeah, but they're pretty flexible, and a schema isn't always a bad thing for network communication
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2016-02-05T15:43:16Z Shinmera: Hm. Anyone know anything about cl-serializer? The uh "new page" is less than helpful http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.serializer?_x=SxfY&_f=RZZzXQAn http://www.cliki.net/cl-serializer
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2016-02-05T15:51:48Z Baggers: with slime/swank, is it possible to set which thread is the repl thread? due to osx reasons I'd like to be able to run expressions types in the repl, on 'thread 0'
2016-02-05T15:52:12Z Baggers: #typed in the repl
2016-02-05T15:53:02Z Baggers: i've been using communication :style nil, but #'start-swank-server-in-thread seems more promising
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2016-02-05T16:07:14Z kamenn: hi, can I create a named pipe in Lisp? The one I can create in Linux with mkfifo.
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2016-02-05T16:07:55Z dlowe: kamenn: you'll need to use some posix interface library, either the one that came with your implementation or one like iolib
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2016-02-05T16:08:17Z kamenn: dlowe: Thanks! How can I do it with SBCL?
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2016-02-05T16:09:26Z dlowe: kamenn: (apropos "mkfifo") returns a function SB-POSIX:MKFIFO that looks promising
2016-02-05T16:09:38Z kamenn: dlowe: thanks a lot!
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2016-02-05T16:46:43Z jasom: Shinmera: cl-store is what I would recommend
2016-02-05T16:47:03Z Shinmera: jasom: Yeah, I'm looking at it now. Seems the best shot out of all the ones listed on the wiki.
2016-02-05T16:47:04Z jasom: IIRC it has a default serializer for CLOS objects
2016-02-05T16:47:28Z Shinmera: It does, but it's erroring on my objects. Probably due to some MOP stuff messing things up on my end.
2016-02-05T16:47:44Z jasom: Shinmera: are they not instances of a subtype of standard-class?
2016-02-05T16:47:51Z Shinmera: They are
2016-02-05T16:47:56Z jasom: huh
2016-02-05T16:48:24Z Shinmera: I have some stuff in place to have immutable slots, I'm guessing it's springing that trap.
2016-02-05T16:48:30Z Shinmera: No biggie.
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2016-02-05T16:50:31Z jasom: Shinmera: you can also specialize conspack:encode-object ((object standard-object) &key &allow-other-keys)
2016-02-05T16:50:35Z DeadTrickster: I'm using cl-store for years with redis
2016-02-05T16:50:43Z jasom: DeadTrickster: me too
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2016-02-05T16:50:57Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'm reading the docs at the moment.
2016-02-05T16:51:05Z DeadTrickster: the only complain is its object initialization loop
2016-02-05T16:51:31Z DeadTrickster: like if class has initforms code called twice - first initform and then slot-values set
2016-02-05T16:51:44Z DeadTrickster: I remember I had problems because of that
2016-02-05T16:51:45Z jasom: DeadTrickster: since you use it, out of curiousity, have you implemented redlock in cl-redus?  I'm working on an implementation right now but would be happy to not duplicate that effort
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2016-02-05T16:52:43Z DeadTrickster: jasom, nope
2016-02-05T16:52:54Z jasom: DeadTrickster: okay, I'll do it then
2016-02-05T16:53:29Z DeadTrickster: I was using it for pubsub too but recently moved to Rabbitmq
2016-02-05T16:53:35Z DeadTrickster: it was lucky escape )
2016-02-05T16:53:40Z jasom: then I can do r-m-w without having to drop into lua
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2016-02-05T16:54:30Z jasom: yeah, redis is a great key-value store, but people who try to use it for more than that can run into problems
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2016-02-05T16:56:19Z DeadTrickster: absolutely! with redis we just tasted messages passing and it was ok but hell amqp and rabbitmq give just much more
2016-02-05T16:56:45Z DeadTrickster: jasom, by the way, why you need redlock? doing something fancy?
2016-02-05T16:56:50Z loke`: Hello DeadTrickster
2016-02-05T16:56:59Z DeadTrickster: Hello loke`
2016-02-05T16:57:40Z loke`: What's up?
2016-02-05T16:57:53Z jasom: DeadTrickster: just atomic modification of compound values; I could get around most needs for it by storing each subvalue under its own key, but redlock for r-m-w is a lot easier
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2016-02-05T16:59:03Z DeadTrickster: loke`, err not much
2016-02-05T16:59:03Z jasom: and the common case for my workload is no contention, and the overhead is very low for redlock in that case
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2016-02-05T17:00:35Z DeadTrickster: It is well known fact - problems other people solve sound much more interesting than mine :-)
2016-02-05T17:01:08Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Great, I have a problem for you to solve then.
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2016-02-05T17:01:21Z DeadTrickster: I'm listening
2016-02-05T17:01:57Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Fix Android Studio symbol lookup for Kotlin code.
2016-02-05T17:02:04Z DeadTrickster: ha
2016-02-05T17:03:07Z DeadTrickster: I'll better go out with my girlfriend. have a nice day )
2016-02-05T17:03:22Z loke`: Hah
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2016-02-05T19:02:55Z f-a: I am reading a bit on anaphoric macros like these http://paste.lisp.org/display/306610 I was wondering: for the first example, wouldn't a named let do?
2016-02-05T19:03:17Z f-a: Is a lambda just a more compact way of expressing it?
2016-02-05T19:03:47Z f-a: I guess every macro can be seen as "a shorter way of accomplishing x", but I was wonderin if there was any other reason to use aif/alambda
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2016-02-05T19:11:57Z Bike: anaphoric macros are just to shorten things a bit, yes.
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2016-02-05T19:12:38Z Bike: the second would be (let ((it (big-long-calculation))) (if it (foo it))). which is probably what aif expands to, more or less.
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2016-02-05T19:14:06Z f-a: thanks Bike
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2016-02-05T19:15:02Z ecraven: also, anaphoric macros could communicate "behind your back" without you (having to) notice :)
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2016-02-05T19:16:45Z pjb: phoe_krk: there's no need for a definition of unquote, in the reader.  The reader only reads.  You can quote a backquote expression to read it without evaluating '`(a ,b ,@d e) or use READ. Notice that I could not conformingly provide anything else, since what is read by the implementations #\` reader macro is implementation specific.
2016-02-05T19:16:56Z Bike: oh, and the first one would be (labels ((self (n) (if (> n 0) (cons n (self (- n 1))))) #'self).
2016-02-05T19:17:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: how you will define it, will depend on the application which use the reader.
2016-02-05T19:17:12Z Bike: they're macros, you know? gotta expand to something.
2016-02-05T19:17:37Z pjb: phoe_krk: basically, in general you will have to define your own reader macros, just like if you used the implementation reader for your own purposes.
2016-02-05T19:19:41Z phoe_krk: Got it! THanks.
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2016-02-05T19:22:24Z pjb`: drmeister: the usual idiom is (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method)) ; a bare (call-next-method) would be risky, given that the class graph and therefore the applicable method list can change dynamically.
2016-02-05T19:22:31Z pjb`: phoe_krk: there's no need for a definition of unquote, in the reader.  The reader only reads.  You can quote a backquote expression to read it without evaluating '`(a ,b ,@d e) or use READ. Notice that I could not conformingly provide anything else, since what is read by the implementations #\` reader macro is implementation specific.
2016-02-05T19:22:36Z pjb`: phoe_krk: how you will define it, will depend on the application which use the
2016-02-05T19:22:37Z pjb`: reader.
2016-02-05T19:22:53Z phoe_krk: Yes! I got it.
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2016-02-05T19:22:59Z drmeister: pjb`: Thank you.
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2016-02-05T19:23:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: basically, in general you will have to define your own reader macros, just like if you used the implementation reader for your own purposes.
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2016-02-05T19:33:39Z pjb: pillton: there's make-package, but you would argue that it's only partial.  One problem in your question is that the exact semantics of defpackage are implementation dependant.  One conforming implementation that is not implementation dependant is com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package:defpackage which expands to a call to the function com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package::%define-package ; this would be the
2016-02-05T19:33:39Z pjb: function you asked for.
2016-02-05T19:33:56Z PuercoPop: apropos cl-store and redis https://github.com/rudolfochrist/cl-ohm
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2016-02-05T19:35:23Z pjb: minion: memo for arnaudga: have a look at cl-stepper (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper).
2016-02-05T19:35:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell arnaudga when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-02-05T19:36:20Z pjb: pillton: stepping in CL is not that complicated. You just have to try to do it three times to get about right ;-)
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2016-02-05T19:36:53Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: but if you need quasiquote to be defined in the reader there is fare-quasiquote
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2016-02-05T19:52:18Z warweasle: Does grovel use the c compiler? Am I reading my output correctly?
2016-02-05T19:54:05Z attila_lendvai: warweasle: yes, that's the point of cffi-grovel
2016-02-05T19:54:36Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: Ok, I didn't realize.
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2016-02-05T19:55:28Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: Looks like I have more to learn.
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2016-02-05T20:40:57Z jasom: warweasle: it uses the C compiler to extract information about structure layouts and #define constants.  If you think about it, it's trivial to write a C program to extract the information, so the groveller generates a C program that does so and then runs it.
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2016-02-05T20:45:11Z warweasle: jasom: That makes sense
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2016-02-05T21:25:08Z dptd: Hello there, anyone here?
2016-02-05T21:25:27Z mordocai: No
2016-02-05T21:25:31Z |3b| is not
2016-02-05T21:25:33Z dptd: :<
2016-02-05T21:25:49Z p_l: just us bots, reminiscing for elder times
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2016-02-05T21:26:23Z dptd: I have a simple (I guess) but really important question (I am new to Lisp as you can already observe).
2016-02-05T21:27:15Z dptd: What is the best way to find information about function keywords?
2016-02-05T21:27:36Z Bike: the documentation for the function?
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2016-02-05T21:27:38Z dlowe: The documentation. If there is none, the docstring of the function.
2016-02-05T21:27:47Z dlowe: Otherwise you're stuck with looking at the source code and guessing
2016-02-05T21:27:59Z dptd: I want to use for example function "foo" - writen by someone, or available in some library but... och, I see.
2016-02-05T21:28:08Z dlowe: It's pretty much the same in any language.
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2016-02-05T21:28:26Z p_l: dptd: when it comes to source code, SLIME has the great M-. (alt/meta + dot) shortcut which tries to take you to location of the definition
2016-02-05T21:28:35Z dlowe: if the function is already loaded and you're using a nice development environment, you can easily get help on a function
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2016-02-05T21:29:18Z dptd: For C++ we have for example cppreference.com where I can find pretty much everything from the standard library. For Lisp there is a hyperspec but it's pretty difficult to search for anything there.
2016-02-05T21:29:35Z Bike: we have a search thing here.
2016-02-05T21:29:37Z Bike: clhs reduce
2016-02-05T21:29:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
2016-02-05T21:29:40Z dptd: Yeah, I am running Slime. Actually this is my second (yesterday was first) time connecting with IRC from emacs. Pretty awesome.
2016-02-05T21:30:01Z Bike: if you know the function name you can just check the index, too.
2016-02-05T21:30:14Z dptd: lol
2016-02-05T21:30:27Z dptd: clhs loop
2016-02-05T21:30:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2016-02-05T21:30:31Z dlowe: There's also http://www.xach.com/clhs
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2016-02-05T21:31:24Z dptd: Is there anyway to display such information in emacs? I wouldn't be suprised if someone already wrote a pkg for that.
2016-02-05T21:33:00Z dptd: p_l: How can I jump back? Actually M-. displayed empty page when I jumped from *loop*.
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2016-02-05T21:35:17Z p_l: M-,
2016-02-05T21:35:28Z p_l: that is, comma
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2016-02-05T21:36:05Z dptd: Thanks. Any idea why it cannot find 'loop' definition?
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2016-02-05T21:36:33Z Bike: you might not have your implementation sources installed.
2016-02-05T21:37:14Z dptd: Will try to figure this out. I just installed sbcl via brew (OSX).
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2016-02-05T21:37:41Z p_l: dptd: SBCL requires few extra steps to guide it to its sources, depending on installation
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2016-02-05T21:38:13Z dptd: Okay, will try to google for the solution tomorrow. Thank you so much for your help guys.
2016-02-05T21:38:39Z p_l: dptd: http://sprunge.us/aWTE script that launches my source-compiled SBCL
2016-02-05T21:39:25Z dptd: Just finished A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation and I am working my way through Practical Common Lisp now.
2016-02-05T21:39:42Z dptd: p_l: Awesome, thanks!
2016-02-05T21:40:09Z p_l: I believe SBCL_HOME is the important bit, though I'll also check if I don't have some other dotfile stashed somewhere
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2016-02-05T21:50:01Z dptd: Okay, gotta go. Thanks once again. See you around!
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2016-02-06T01:02:45Z malice: Hey guys! I'm going through On Lisp, and I got to our-and recursive macro. I guess I get it, but I wanted to macroexpand it. Now that's where's the problem - can I expand my macro too? I tried MACROEXPAND, but it doesn't work -expands like MACROEXPAND-1
2016-02-06T01:03:03Z malice: To those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here's the code: http://ix.io/oa4
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2016-02-06T01:06:18Z Bike: macroexpand only affects the outer operator. you'll get (case ...), and then macroexpanding that will expand the case, but the inner case forms won't be macroexpanded.
2016-02-06T01:06:33Z malice: Can I get full expansion somehow?
2016-02-06T01:06:43Z Bike: er, into an if, sorry.
2016-02-06T01:06:50Z Bike: there's a few libraries for it, but are you using SLIME?
2016-02-06T01:06:55Z malice: Yes, I am.
2016-02-06T01:07:36Z Bike: type an our-and form wherever, and hit C-c C-m on the head. It should open up a buffer with the expansion, and you can use C-c C-m on subforms there to expand them.
2016-02-06T01:08:19Z malice: Pretty cool. Thanks!
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2016-02-06T02:42:35Z fewdea: so why do I need sbcl install to compile sbcl? doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous?
2016-02-06T02:42:45Z fewdea: installed*
2016-02-06T02:43:43Z Bike: fewdea: have you compiled gcc or llvm before
2016-02-06T02:44:15Z fewdea: no, but now that you put it that way, it seems less ridiculous
2016-02-06T02:45:41Z fewdea: i guess i'll be installing the binary then
2016-02-06T02:46:36Z CompanionCube: Circular deps are only stupid when you're not bootstrapping or similar :p
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2016-02-06T02:47:42Z |3b|: sbcl can be built with other CL implementations too, not just sbcl
2016-02-06T02:48:38Z |3b|: and doesn't have to be installed for that matter, but installed sbcl is easiest option
2016-02-06T02:52:26Z fewdea: so you're telling me sbcl is written in lisp?
2016-02-06T02:53:54Z warweasle: fewdea: Yes.
2016-02-06T02:54:11Z fewdea: i guess it's not that hard to believe, but I've only ever really thought of things that get compiled as being written in C/C++ and the like
2016-02-06T02:54:26Z warweasle: fewdea: It's turtles. *All* the way down. :)
2016-02-06T02:54:50Z fewdea: i like turtles.
2016-02-06T02:55:08Z warweasle: fewdea: Lisp predates C/C++ by a few years so C should have been written in lisp.
2016-02-06T02:55:16Z CompanionCube: fewdea: even javascript tends to be compiled
2016-02-06T02:55:19Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-02-06T02:55:24Z CompanionCube: Just not ahead of time
2016-02-06T02:57:05Z grindhold_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-02-06T02:57:14Z fewdea: well, yeah, i get that scripting languages are called such because they're compiled at runtime. it seems a little weird to me still, being new to lisp, that lisp compiles things. i don't know why. i guess it still feels more like scripting in bash or something
2016-02-06T02:57:54Z fewdea: that i can make my lisp code into a binary without using gcc? crazy
2016-02-06T02:58:07Z warweasle: fewdea: It *IS* weird compared to everything else.
2016-02-06T02:58:16Z soundobstacle: Lisp can be compiled or interpreted.
2016-02-06T02:58:21Z soundobstacle: It's a weird language.
2016-02-06T02:59:01Z CompanionCube: Aren't the only other other widely known systems in such a manner are likely smalltalk-based
2016-02-06T02:59:10Z fewdea: honestly, it's the coolest thing i've ever encountered. i coded php as a web dev for nearly 15 years. discovered python and had a short love affair with it, but then discovered lisp, and i'm blown away
2016-02-06T02:59:31Z soundobstacle: Lisp is the comfiest language I've used in my short time as a programmer.
2016-02-06T02:59:36Z warweasle: fewdea: It's amazingly powerful once you get it.
2016-02-06T02:59:49Z soundobstacle: I still don't fully get it, but I still enjoy it.
2016-02-06T03:00:31Z fewdea: php and python, etc... they all feel very 'mechanical' while lisp feels organic, i guess i'd describe it. like the difference between lsd and a mushroom trip haha
2016-02-06T03:00:44Z soundobstacle: I for one appreciate that Perl allows for hyphenated variables in Perl 6 because of how I usually need to purposefully think "underscore" when naming things.
2016-02-06T03:00:46Z warweasle: fewdea: It's just a lot of really good, simple ideas that work together so it doesn't look like there's a good place to start.
2016-02-06T03:01:04Z soundobstacle: Symbolic computation is a godsend for naming things meaningfully.
2016-02-06T03:01:05Z CompanionCube knows a little about lisp but is unsure to really start with elisp scheme or clisp
2016-02-06T03:01:24Z soundobstacle: I began with Common Lisp (sbcl).
2016-02-06T03:01:30Z warweasle: CompanionCube: I really like sbcl...but I'm doing bad things to it.
2016-02-06T03:01:36Z CompanionCube: fewdea: are you a fan of OOP?
2016-02-06T03:01:37Z soundobstacle: I use Scheme for reading SICP.
2016-02-06T03:01:51Z fewdea: it's also pretty amazing that the code structure is identical to the internal data structure... turtles, as you say, warweasle
2016-02-06T03:02:00Z fewdea: i am a fan of OOP
2016-02-06T03:02:22Z CompanionCube: you might want to also look at Smalltalk and friends
2016-02-06T03:02:38Z CompanionCube: Everything is an object. And they mean it.
2016-02-06T03:02:55Z soundobstacle: CLOS is the only OOP I've actually learned. I like it, but at the same time I'm probably going to commit sudoku if I ever have to learn another OOP language.
2016-02-06T03:03:33Z warweasle: fewdea: That's not even the half of it. With other languages you have to parse your code (and data) into a tree before your compiler/interperter can do anything with it. Lisp. IS. THE. TREE. And you can use the tree to modify the tree...at RUNTIME. If you wanted, you could implement a compiler in lisp macros which would compile your lisp compiler as you are building it.
2016-02-06T03:03:56Z warweasle hands soundobstacle a pencil.
2016-02-06T03:04:35Z fewdea: well, i honstly am not /that/ big of fan of oop. it's neat and all, but my boss has a raging hard on for how powershell is all objects. i don't need things to be oop, but i appreciate the usefulness of some of the languages. python is pretty cool, but is still just a worker language. lisp seems to be an artists language
2016-02-06T03:04:40Z soundobstacle: My favourite way to demonstrate Lisp to the curious is to show them this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI
2016-02-06T03:05:08Z soundobstacle: It's even interesting just watching someone write Lisp.
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2016-02-06T03:07:41Z warweasle: soundobstacle: I like watching Baggers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL9_p3I0Pdg&list=PL2VAYZE_4wRKKr5pJzfYD1w4tKCXARs5y&index=17
2016-02-06T03:08:22Z warweasle: But nothing explains lisp quite like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
2016-02-06T03:08:36Z soundobstacle: Common Lisp is what I imagined programming was when I was 12, in the best way.
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2016-02-06T03:09:20Z fewdea: why does it feel like lisp shouldn't be able to do computer stuff? like midi and gui and file io ?
2016-02-06T03:09:28Z fewdea: this video is amazing
2016-02-06T03:09:34Z soundobstacle: Because it looks weird.
2016-02-06T03:09:59Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2016-02-06T03:10:47Z warweasle: fewdea: How can you explain it to someone who doesn't code? It's like colors to the colorblind.
2016-02-06T03:11:41Z fewdea: i have trouble describing my feelings for lisp to people that do code
2016-02-06T03:12:09Z warweasle: fewdea: Well, back to my game engine....
2016-02-06T03:12:25Z warweasle: fewdea: Oh...there's also #lispgames channel.
2016-02-06T03:12:45Z fewdea: i just got Land of Lisp in the mail, i'm down :P
2016-02-06T03:12:57Z warweasle: fewdea: Did you see the video?
2016-02-06T03:13:06Z fewdea: no?
2016-02-06T03:13:25Z warweasle: fewdea: My second link was the Land of Lisp Music Video.
2016-02-06T03:13:41Z fewdea: oh dear, it will be up next. thanks for that
2016-02-06T03:13:41Z warweasle: fewdea: Luckily, you already bought the book.
2016-02-06T03:14:08Z warweasle: fewdea: And the book is good...the video is ... aww right?
2016-02-06T03:14:34Z soundobstacle: Well, it's 3 in the morning. That means it's time for an SICP lecture.
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2016-02-06T03:16:44Z warweasle: soundobstacle: In the beginning...God carved a parenthesis into a punch card. And it compiled and was good.
2016-02-06T03:18:26Z warweasle: soundobstacle: However, without modern debugging tools, it fork bombed the processor and became the universe. Seeing how it was late and he was out of coffee, god called it a night and went home to play world of godcraft.
2016-02-06T03:18:32Z fewdea: holy christ, this livecoding video...
2016-02-06T03:18:41Z warweasle: fewdea: Which one?
2016-02-06T03:18:50Z soundobstacle: (let ((there 'light)))
2016-02-06T03:19:02Z fewdea: the one soundobstacle linked right above yours
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2016-02-06T03:19:34Z warweasle: soundobstacle: If only. YOu have to create a window, and some buffers, and textures and a shader or two and then a render pipeline. God had it easy.
2016-02-06T03:19:53Z warweasle: fewdea: Oh, you should look at baggers other videos. I just picked the first one I found.
2016-02-06T03:20:13Z soundobstacle: The one I linked was a dude making music with his Lisp.
2016-02-06T03:20:29Z warweasle: soundobstacle: That's a good one.
2016-02-06T03:20:31Z soundobstacle: It properly demonstrates modifying programs as they run.
2016-02-06T03:21:33Z fewdea: i don't even have slime installed yet. i'm putting it off because vim -> emacs :/
2016-02-06T03:21:40Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Although I think the most impressive thing I've seen in lisp was in PIAP, where he creates a unification tool. Then creates a logic language in a few pages.
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2016-02-06T03:22:02Z warweasle: fewdea: Do you know about quicklisp?
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2016-02-06T03:22:30Z soundobstacle: fewdea: I thought that once. I'm now a happy camper in emacs. You really need to use emacs to get the most out of it, I think. Nothing is comfier than compiling individual functions.
2016-02-06T03:23:14Z fewdea: yes, i am currently building a web app, and was asking in #clnoobs about packages. we got into some discussion about using asdf and how I shouldn't use ql:quickload in my code
2016-02-06T03:23:27Z warweasle: Has anyone actually written a tool to balance weasels on a rake? I mean, it's not like I have any personal stake in such a tool but it would be nice...
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2016-02-06T03:25:09Z didi: fewdea: Indeed.
2016-02-06T03:25:24Z fewdea: so that got me on a tangent of rebuilding my lisp environment; deleting quicklisp, putting everything in the lisp user's home dir, trying to compile sbcl, and then coming here and finding out how it's turtles *all* the way down. good stuff
2016-02-06T03:25:45Z fewdea: so now i have to gut my code and rebuild it with asdf in mind
2016-02-06T03:25:52Z didi: fewdea: Any particular reason to compile SBCL yourself?
2016-02-06T03:25:54Z warweasle: fewdea: If XachX hears that it will break his heart!
2016-02-06T03:25:59Z soundobstacle: Out of interest, why shouldn't you use ql:quickload in code?
2016-02-06T03:26:20Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-02-06T03:26:29Z didi: I use quicklisp as a package manager.
2016-02-06T03:26:38Z warweasle: fewdea: Don't break his heart. His achy, breaky heart...
2016-02-06T03:26:46Z warweasle: So do I.
2016-02-06T03:26:54Z fewdea: idk? |3b| said I shouldn't. makes sense, I suppose, to not include a package manager's code in my code
2016-02-06T03:26:56Z soundobstacle: didi: It could not be in his repos. I use Slackware and had to compile it myself for the Slackbuild.
2016-02-06T03:26:59Z warweasle: quicklisp uses asdf internally.
2016-02-06T03:27:00Z fewdea: ... why would that break his heard?
2016-02-06T03:27:04Z didi: soundobstacle: oic
2016-02-06T03:27:09Z fewdea: heart*
2016-02-06T03:28:03Z warweasle: fewdea: Xach made it.
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2016-02-06T03:28:51Z fewdea: aha, it's a great thing, I don't dislike it at all. just wanted to start fresh and do things the hard way so i can learn more
2016-02-06T03:29:28Z fewdea: i would have been eternally frustrated and probably given up on learning lisp if it wasn't for quicklisp, tbh
2016-02-06T03:29:36Z didi: fewdea: Why?
2016-02-06T03:29:49Z didi: I mean. It is a package manager.
2016-02-06T03:30:00Z didi: It is awesome. But still a package manager.
2016-02-06T03:30:06Z soundobstacle: I didn't use quicklisp at all while learning. Why would you need it to learn Lisp?
2016-02-06T03:30:24Z Bike: you don't need it, it's just hells of convenient
2016-02-06T03:30:29Z warweasle: fewdea: QL is still kind of new (very much so for lisp's culture) and it was terrible trying to get dependancies before.
2016-02-06T03:31:13Z Bike: and you shouldn't use quickload in systems code because you should use the declarative dependency mechanism, that is asdf systems, instead of procedural quickload calls
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2016-02-06T03:31:31Z fewdea: i'm a web dev so naturally the first thing i wanted to do was build a website. if I hadn't been able to quickload hunchentoot, i probably wouldn't have stuck around for the sake of learning lisp
2016-02-06T03:32:06Z didi: fewdea: Interesting.
2016-02-06T03:32:12Z soundobstacle: fewdea: Ah, I see. I'm not sure what I want to do as a programmer, but I'm fond of the thought of AI.
2016-02-06T03:32:24Z soundobstacle: A man can dream of electric sheep.
2016-02-06T03:32:43Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Why not simulate a goat?
2016-02-06T03:32:56Z didi: soundobstacle: No. You should dream of real animals. The androids are out to get us.
2016-02-06T03:33:02Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Have you read PAIP?
2016-02-06T03:33:03Z fewdea: one of the lisp books i got was Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp
2016-02-06T03:33:22Z warweasle: fewdea: Love it.
2016-02-06T03:33:23Z soundobstacle: warweasle: I've read part of it. I'm going to go back to it after I get a bit smarter.
2016-02-06T03:33:40Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Every time I read it I learn something new.
2016-02-06T03:33:52Z soundobstacle: Great book, from the parts I've read. I read up to Eliza.
2016-02-06T03:34:15Z Bike: the project to simulate a nematode is going ok
2016-02-06T03:34:43Z warweasle: soundobstacle: That reminds me, I need to retry Lisp in small pieces. Last time I didn't know enough to push through the lambda calculus.
2016-02-06T03:34:48Z fewdea: didi, it took seeing lisp perform in a web context for me to understand the real power of it. wl-who, weblock, postmodern, etc. all amazing libraries, all super easy to use with quicklisp. now i want to start doing things the hard way
2016-02-06T03:35:12Z fewdea: soundobstacle, have you seen the AI course on Coursera?
2016-02-06T03:35:46Z warweasle: fewdea: I use xmls to turn s-exps into xml, which I pass to pango to render rich text in 3D.
2016-02-06T03:35:53Z fewdea: the examples are done in matlab/octave, but it's trivial to write them in another language. i did it in python
2016-02-06T03:36:00Z soundobstacle: fewdea: No, I haven't. I'm watching SICP lectures every so often in between reading it and doing my best to understand it despite my lack of calculus knowledge.
2016-02-06T03:36:04Z warweasle: fewdea: So for power....
2016-02-06T03:36:12Z didi: fewdea: Cool.
2016-02-06T03:37:05Z fewdea: maybe one day i'll step out of my mundane, comfortable web dev bubble and do something super cool with lisp
2016-02-06T03:37:53Z warweasle: No, fewdea. What I'm saying is, when you're ready, you won't need to.
2016-02-06T03:37:59Z didi: fewdea: Do something super cool with lisp inside your comfortable web dev bubble then. ;-)
2016-02-06T03:38:19Z fewdea: i totally am, can i tell you what I'm going to write?
2016-02-06T03:38:20Z mtl_: ^yes please
2016-02-06T03:38:37Z mtl_: (@ what did said)
2016-02-06T03:38:42Z mtl_: didi*
2016-02-06T03:38:56Z warweasle: fewdea: Is it a short short explanation of a software project? (NAILED IT!)
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2016-02-06T03:40:19Z fewdea: yes. my goal is to implement an optimal social operating system. the humans are the CPUs and the software is the task scheduler similar to windows HPC or PBS in linux. obviously more detail to it, but that's the gist of it. it's what i'm on this planet to do
2016-02-06T03:40:38Z loke`: fewdea: It's a game?
2016-02-06T03:40:54Z fewdea: no. it's going to be a real life thing
2016-02-06T03:42:00Z fewdea: our current social operating system is akin to DOS and windows. no transparency, when shit breaks you can't figure out why, etc. the new SoS will be like *nix. open, transparent, community driven, freely distributable
2016-02-06T03:42:46Z fewdea: don't worry about the details, I got this.
2016-02-06T03:43:12Z didi: Go for it.
2016-02-06T03:43:20Z soundobstacle: fewdea: Windows is just a fancy graphical frontend for DOS. What do you mean by social operating system?
2016-02-06T03:43:21Z warweasle: fewdea: Well, I'll just focus on my super-editor. (Edits any media..) here in the corner. I'll let you know when it's done.
2016-02-06T03:43:44Z circ-user-db7pc: is sly and slime supposed to work without problems when installed together?
2016-02-06T03:43:56Z warweasle: soundobstacle: A synthetic culture.
2016-02-06T03:44:19Z soundobstacle: You mean like vapourwave?
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2016-02-06T03:45:06Z fewdea: warweasle, no! we currently live in a synthetic culture. it's garbage. i aim to get rid of all the extraneous bullshit and build an organizational system that just allows people to live and do their thing. i know it sounds ridiculous, trust me, I do. But I know I can pull it off.
2016-02-06T03:46:37Z warweasle: fewdea: Of course it's rubbish...which is why your aren't the only one dreaming of it: https://www.ethereum.org/
2016-02-06T03:47:37Z fewdea: hey, that's really cool.
2016-02-06T03:48:06Z fewdea: i've been wondering about that. how to distribute the system so there's no central datacenter to blow up
2016-02-06T03:48:15Z warweasle: fewdea: I think we need a mix of that and google wave mixed together.
2016-02-06T03:48:42Z CompanionCube: matrix.org seems nice too
2016-02-06T03:48:45Z warweasle: fewdea: Bitcoin kind of beat you to it. The downside, is it requires a massive ammout of processing power and energy.
2016-02-06T03:49:41Z warweasle: Says the CompanionCube. fewdea: I have it on GOOD AUTHORITY that if the CompanionCube does speak, to disregard what it says.
2016-02-06T03:49:43Z fewdea: eh, currency is not a big deal. it's an exploitable tool. regardless of the currency, those with the most of it control things. when there is an imbalance of power, the social fabric becomes unstable
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2016-02-06T03:50:06Z CompanionCube: warweasle: :(
2016-02-06T03:50:33Z CompanionCube dispatches deadly turrets to warweasle's house
2016-02-06T03:50:51Z warweasle: CompanionCube: Get back onto your super-powerful, super-conducting, super-button!
2016-02-06T03:51:06Z CompanionCube: No.
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2016-02-06T03:51:46Z warweasle: CompanionCube: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/4/4f/Frankenturret_box.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110516161051&path-prefix=en
2016-02-06T03:52:09Z warweasle: fewdea: Imagine, if you will, what people create?
2016-02-06T03:52:17Z CompanionCube: Those are Wheatley's ._.
2016-02-06T03:52:58Z warweasle: fewdea: Anything we create is a refection of us.
2016-02-06T03:53:28Z soundobstacle: warweasle: I must be a boring person.
2016-02-06T03:53:34Z warweasle: fewdea: I propose the structure you see and want to replace is actually a very accurate representation of our very selves.
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2016-02-06T03:54:35Z fewdea: right? i think a good analogy for the struggle of the whole is the same struggle we face on the individual level every day. the purpose of this system is not to create a utopia, but minimize the fog and make it blatantly obvious that the people must improve
2016-02-06T03:55:44Z fewdea: a robust, to-the-point system with lots of transparency and debugging capabilities that naturally results in personal accountability
2016-02-06T03:56:26Z warweasle: fewdea: Wow...I've gotten old and jaded.
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2016-02-06T03:57:24Z fewdea: warweasle, no i don't think you have. I think you just see it like it is. what we have built _is_ a direct representation of our shitty, primate behavio
2016-02-06T03:57:30Z fewdea: r
2016-02-06T03:57:54Z warweasle: fewdea: Yes, our brains evolved to fling poo at our enemies.
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2016-02-06T03:58:50Z warweasle: fewdea: But then when one person swallowed some rocks, he made history.
2016-02-06T03:58:51Z didi: warweasle: But try to convince your coworkers of that.
2016-02-06T03:58:55Z fewdea: it's great, right? if we had been born perfect, we wouldn't have this collective challenge to overcome. what would encourage us to override our default programming?
2016-02-06T03:59:59Z didi: "But be mad at me. I am just fulfilling my evolutionary purpose."
2016-02-06T04:00:23Z didi: s/But/Don't
2016-02-06T04:00:34Z warweasle: didi: That doesn't work on dads.
2016-02-06T04:00:36Z warweasle: either
2016-02-06T04:01:09Z soundobstacle: I wasn't expecting the lisp channel to turn into Lain levels of philosophy.
2016-02-06T04:02:13Z fewdea: :D
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2016-02-06T04:02:28Z warweasle: #1=("I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." #1)
2016-02-06T04:02:55Z soundobstacle: Preferred the 1995 film myself.
2016-02-06T04:03:52Z soundobstacle: SAC should've been half the length it was, I think.
2016-02-06T04:03:58Z warweasle: soundobstacle: You should watch Torchwood. Not because it's in any way related to anything here, it's just really good.
2016-02-06T04:04:33Z soundobstacle: I was never big into Doctor Who. I think I watched a couple episodes of Torchwood, but never got into it either.
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2016-02-06T04:05:36Z warweasle: soundobstacle: You know, they never did actually make any of the Ghost in the Shell SAC series. That was just a rumor on 4chan.
2016-02-06T04:05:54Z loke`: soundobstacle: Dr Who becomes better if you watch it like a modern Twilight Zone.
2016-02-06T04:06:06Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Like Subway's Jared or Slender.
2016-02-06T04:06:25Z warweasle: soundobstacle: But those two are the same if your a child.
2016-02-06T04:07:16Z soundobstacle: warweasle: Is this Unknown Armies now?
2016-02-06T04:07:37Z warweasle: soundobstacle: Nice reference. I've never actually read that yet, though.
2016-02-06T04:08:06Z soundobstacle: warweasle: I've skimmed it, but never played it.
2016-02-06T04:08:27Z warweasle: soundobstacle: I REALLY want to play Shock: Social Science Fiction.
2016-02-06T04:11:22Z warweasle: soundobstacle: It's about creating deep-philosophical stories...if that's what you like.
2016-02-06T04:12:04Z soundobstacle: warweasle: I don't smoke. :^)
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2016-02-06T04:21:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-06T04:24:32Z soundobstacle: It's half 4 in the morning and I'm posting in #lisp.
2016-02-06T04:24:38Z soundobstacle: I've lost control of my life.
2016-02-06T04:25:45Z didi: soundobstacle: Relax. Free will is an illusion anyway.
2016-02-06T04:26:48Z soundobstacle: I've closed my browser. Where I'm updating my system I can't open it again. Oh lord help me.
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2016-02-06T04:27:53Z fewdea: w000t! it's compiling!
2016-02-06T04:28:20Z soundobstacle: Praise Sussman-sama, my browser opened again. fewdea, sbcl?
2016-02-06T04:29:03Z fewdea: yeah. I installed the binary and then overwrote it with cource compilation. the bit I was missing was the the SBCL_HOME env variable
2016-02-06T04:30:09Z soundobstacle: What's your platform? I compiled it with no issues. Only thing I had to do was reboot, iirc, because of something which told my system "No, sbcl is HERE, not there" which wouldn't take effect until next boot.
2016-02-06T04:30:48Z fewdea: using a centos 6 install on digital ocean
2016-02-06T04:31:06Z fewdea: i was installing to my home directory, not the standard location
2016-02-06T04:31:49Z fewdea: i have a user just for lisp that hunchentoot can run the server as, so i wanted to put everything lisp in that user's home dir
2016-02-06T04:32:30Z fewdea: i'll keep all my asdf systems and sources and whatnot in there
2016-02-06T04:32:46Z soundobstacle: Ah. At least it works now. Hopefully after this update I don't need to recompile sbcl.
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2016-02-06T04:34:00Z soundobstacle: I shouldn't have to, but you never know.
2016-02-06T04:34:09Z fewdea: woop woop: real    1m41.994s
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2016-02-06T04:35:46Z fewdea: didi, I want on an informal rant on /r/philosophy about how free will doesn't exist because everything is deterministic, and they told me "but, compatibilism!" I haven't looked into it though. sounds interesting anyway
2016-02-06T04:37:07Z fewdea: alright. now that sbcl is working again... cover me, i'm going in! asdf, here i come
2016-02-06T04:37:11Z didi: fewdea: Don't you believe in quantum physics?
2016-02-06T04:37:26Z fewdea: i do... why do you ask?
2016-02-06T04:37:45Z didi: "how free will doesn't exist because everything is deterministic"
2016-02-06T04:38:24Z fewdea: you're suggesting that the random slurring of subatomic particles allows for the existence of non-deterministic free will?
2016-02-06T04:38:27Z beach: Please stick to the topic.
2016-02-06T04:38:35Z didi: beach: Sorry.
2016-02-06T04:38:40Z fewdea: lol okay okay
2016-02-06T04:39:11Z fewdea: mods were asleep earlier :P
2016-02-06T04:39:31Z beach: #lisp never sleeps.
2016-02-06T04:42:18Z soundobstacle: I'd be sleeping if I weren't doing a full system upgrade.
2016-02-06T04:42:25Z beach: soundobstacle: [I am reading the logs] Any language can be interpreted or compiled.  Some languages were designed so that the compiler can't optimize very much, but Common Lisp is not such a language.  The designers took great care to include only features that we know how to compile to efficient code.
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2016-02-06T04:59:49Z fewdea: if I'm going to use quicklisp as a package manager only, and not in my code, but rather using asdf directly... can I copy my systems out of quicklisp's directory and into a central location for the project? is that advisable? No other reason than cleanliness I guess
2016-02-06T05:00:54Z fewdea: suppose I wanted to keep everything in ~/common-lisp/systems for instance
2016-02-06T05:01:29Z beach: fewdea: I keep my own projects wherever I want.
2016-02-06T05:01:46Z beach: And I put a symbolic link in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source
2016-02-06T05:01:58Z beach: [I think that's right.  I can't remember]
2016-02-06T05:02:14Z fewdea: it is
2016-02-06T05:02:19Z beach: Then ASDF will find all the .asd files in the directory linked to.
2016-02-06T05:03:05Z beach: ... and in subdirectories of that directory.
2016-02-06T05:03:38Z fewdea: where do you keep third party libraries/systems then? do they stay in your quicklisp directory (assuming you use it)?
2016-02-06T05:04:05Z fewdea: or would you move them to ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source ?
2016-02-06T05:04:11Z beach: If they are installable using Quicklisp, that's what I do and leave them there.
2016-02-06T05:04:23Z fewdea: okay, that's reasonable
2016-02-06T05:04:27Z beach: If not, I clone them and treat them like one of my own.
2016-02-06T05:04:49Z fewdea: gotcha. that makes sense
2016-02-06T05:05:07Z beach: But I am not necessarily the authority on that kind of stuff.
2016-02-06T05:05:15Z beach: So you should check with others as well.
2016-02-06T05:05:39Z fewdea: alrighty, I shall
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2016-02-06T06:12:30Z forgot: i have melpa added to list in my .emacs, but M-x package-install <ret> slime <ret> says not found, any idea?
2016-02-06T06:14:09Z beach: Install SLIME using Quicklisp.
2016-02-06T06:15:07Z beach: forgot: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
2016-02-06T06:15:31Z beach: forgot: Quicklisp then tells you what lines to add to your .emacs.
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2016-02-06T06:16:49Z forgot googling quicklisp
2016-02-06T06:17:28Z beach: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2016-02-06T06:18:00Z mordocai: Has anyone run into something similar to this before? I'm experimenting with debian + guix so it is probably some lib or something missing, i'm just not sure what. I seem to have all the headers that terminal_glue.c is looking for. http://lpaste.net/151781
2016-02-06T06:18:17Z mordocai: To further clarify before you click, this is trying to compile linedit
2016-02-06T06:19:27Z mordocai: Ah nvm, figured out i'm missing asm/ioctls.h
2016-02-06T06:23:19Z forgot: beach: it works perfectly, thanks for the guide
2016-02-06T06:23:34Z beach: Anytime!
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2016-02-06T06:30:30Z mordocai: Alright so how do I get the actual compiler error from http://lpaste.net/151781 ?
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2016-02-06T06:45:22Z mordocai: What's the proper way to fix https://github.com/nikodemus/linedit/blob/master/linedit.asd#L27 to rely on the path? Cause that is fucking annoying.
2016-02-06T06:45:48Z mordocai: Right now i put a fork in local projects with my path to gcc but i'd like to know how to make it more general
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2016-02-06T06:47:30Z Bike: can you maybe just (setf *gcc* wherever) between loading linedit-system and linedit?
2016-02-06T06:48:04Z mordocai: Well the proper solution would be to look it up with the system path env var
2016-02-06T06:48:10Z mordocai: I'm just not sure how people like to handle it
2016-02-06T06:48:42Z Bike: i'm not sure why it even does that, since it actually runs it with run-shell-command, which presumably looks it up in PATH.
2016-02-06T06:49:24Z mordocai: Yeah, i'll try switching it to just gcc
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2016-02-06T06:50:34Z mordocai: Yeah, using just gcc works fine
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2016-02-06T07:21:46Z moore33: beach: Good morning!
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2016-02-06T07:36:48Z beach: moore33: What's up?
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2016-02-06T07:44:08Z moore33: beach: Trying to figure out why mouse dragging isn't working as expected in my lpsg demo -- obviously I don't know anything about 3D graphics despite doing it all day long :)
2016-02-06T07:44:39Z moore33: Heading off to breakfast; bbl
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2016-02-06T09:59:12Z beach: Please give me some examples where functions are used to represent other objects.  The only example I can think of right now is the 2D zone stuff from the paper by Hudak and Jones.
2016-02-06T10:00:16Z beach: Notice that right now, I am not interested in the very very general idea where a function can be used to represent some arbitrary object in the sense of object-oriented programming.
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2016-02-06T10:29:56Z moore33: beach: This is not really an answer to your question, but I just came across this paper on Hacker News: http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.02988v2Programmatic and Direct Manipulation, Together at Last. I've just skimmed it, but it looks interesting.
2016-02-06T10:30:50Z Shinmera: beach: Isn't lazy evaluation pretty much that?
2016-02-06T10:31:41Z beach: moore33: There appears to be something wrong with that link, at least for me.
2016-02-06T10:32:19Z Shinmera: beach: shave off the "Programmatic" from the end.
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2016-02-06T10:32:29Z beach: Shinmera: Well, you can certainly use functions to delay evaluation.  But I am interested in much more concrete examples, such as using a function for representing a zone in 2d.
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2016-02-06T10:32:58Z Shinmera: beach: Alright. I can't think of anything like that off the top of my head then.
2016-02-06T10:33:01Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks.
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2016-02-06T10:33:27Z shka: offtopic: i typed 2D zone stuff from the paper by Hudak and Jones in google
2016-02-06T10:33:40Z shka: somehow it managed to find paper
2016-02-06T10:34:10Z beach: shka: The title of the paper is "Haskell vs Ada vs ..."
2016-02-06T10:34:14Z shka: yes
2016-02-06T10:34:20Z shka: first result in google
2016-02-06T10:34:23Z shka: after typing that
2016-02-06T10:34:28Z beach: Good.
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2016-02-06T10:34:42Z shka: i'm a little surprised that it worked, though
2016-02-06T10:34:57Z moore33: bbl
2016-02-06T10:35:09Z beach: moore33: Thanks.  The paper looks interesting indeed.
2016-02-06T10:35:16Z moore33: Sorry about the typo...
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2016-02-06T12:33:56Z guicho: hello everyone
2016-02-06T12:34:03Z mood: hello
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2016-02-06T12:38:06Z guicho: if you had a macro/dispatching-macro-character for file local variables, what would be the best?
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2016-02-06T12:41:40Z Shinmera: #v ?
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2016-02-06T12:45:27Z guicho: http://quickdocs.org/advanced-readtable/
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2016-02-06T12:49:57Z guicho: shinmera: like this? #v(*macroexpand-hook* 'myhook)
2016-02-06T12:50:21Z Shinmera: I have no idea what that would do
2016-02-06T12:51:40Z guicho: hm..
2016-02-06T12:51:45Z Shinmera: are you asking for suggestions about libraries that would implement file-local variables, or suggestions for what to name a macro character to use for such a thing?
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2016-02-06T12:53:31Z guicho: latter
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2016-02-06T12:53:57Z guicho: what would look intuitively a file local variable?
2016-02-06T12:54:17Z guicho: what kind of syntactic construct
2016-02-06T12:54:40Z Shinmera: I don't even know where I'd use file local variables to begin with, so I can't say.
2016-02-06T12:54:58Z guicho: true.
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2016-02-06T13:17:40Z yxabc: Hi,guys.Is there any existing lisp package can parse a byte file in the format defined by s-exp or XML?
2016-02-06T13:17:54Z yxabc: that would be cool~
2016-02-06T13:20:20Z phoe_krk: yxabc: google tells me three things
2016-02-06T13:20:21Z phoe_krk: 1) https://github.com/frodef/binary-types
2016-02-06T13:20:26Z phoe_krk: 2) http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
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2016-02-06T13:20:44Z phoe_krk: 3) when we're talking about PCL, have you took a glare at the ID3 tag parser?
2016-02-06T13:20:47Z Shinmera: I thought SEXP and XML are text formats, not binary formats?
2016-02-06T13:21:10Z phoe_krk: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-an-id3-parser.html
2016-02-06T13:21:16Z Shinmera: So what exactly is binary about it?
2016-02-06T13:21:22Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: the *definition* is in XML/sexps
2016-02-06T13:21:31Z phoe_krk: the definition of what's in a binary file
2016-02-06T13:21:36Z Shinmera: Ah.
2016-02-06T13:21:50Z yxabc: lemme see..
2016-02-06T13:22:13Z Shinmera: binary-types is neat, I've used it before, although not much.
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2016-02-06T13:27:58Z yxabc: good.thank you~
2016-02-06T13:28:12Z iskander: binary-types is great, i used it to parse pcap packets
2016-02-06T13:31:00Z hitecnologys: I double the binary-types recommendation. I used it and it's great though lacks proper documentation.
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2016-02-06T13:32:25Z yxabc: ok.I want to write a program to extract resources from some common kinds of filetype.
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2016-02-06T14:02:18Z cmpitg: I was about to buy an e-copy of the ANSI standard, then stumbled upon this http://web.archive.org/web/20140711172606/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=431
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2016-02-06T15:02:57Z guicho: I could finally do it without reader macros.
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2016-02-06T15:05:19Z loke`: guicho: Do what?
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2016-02-06T15:07:02Z guicho: Implementing a method for making arbitrarly variables to be file local.
2016-02-06T15:08:40Z guicho: This was a crucial part preventing the use of *macroexpand-hook* in a portable manner.
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2016-02-06T15:10:02Z kenanb: is there any cl-ppcre function similar to regex-opt of ELisp? I tried to find it from api docs but I am not great with regexp. basically the functionality is combining multiple regexp strings to a single statement: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/RegexpOpt
2016-02-06T15:10:13Z guicho: one step forward to AspectM (before/after hooks for macros) https://github.com/guicho271828/aspectm
2016-02-06T15:10:55Z kenanb: so I need to say something like "does any of those regexes match?".
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2016-02-06T15:12:38Z kenanb: I currently handle it using SOME in combination with SCAN but I want to know if there is a better way in cl-ppcre, since my solution might be really bad performance-wise (tho that is not a huge concern here)
2016-02-06T15:12:50Z guicho: kenanb: sandwitching them with a bar "|" will have the same effect. isnt it what is expected?
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2016-02-06T15:16:34Z kenanb: guicho: close, but not exactly, I use the approach you suggested to somewhere else as well. regexp-opt is actually doing a little more than that by optimizing the combination.
2016-02-06T15:17:39Z guicho: if the optimization is important, also consider using parse-string which compiles a regexp string into a tree (which is what I suppose it does.)
2016-02-06T15:18:30Z guicho: because dynamically concatenating the string with "|" will prevent the compiler-macro to run the optimization.
2016-02-06T15:19:11Z kenanb: guicho: hmm, ok that part seems relevant, you are right, I'll check it out, thank you!
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2016-02-06T15:21:52Z guicho: regexp-opt seems regexp -> regexp, but parse-string is regexp -> optimized internal representation.
2016-02-06T15:22:44Z guicho: in case I was misleading, parse-string is a function in ppcre.
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2016-02-06T15:26:41Z kenanb: guicho: nope, you are not misleading, that is more or less what I was looking for, I don't care how it is represented as long as it is the suitable (optimal) way of representing the expression
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2016-02-06T15:27:28Z kenanb: the regex strings will always be represented as seperate strings on user side, only internally they will be combined, so this is very convenient
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2016-02-06T18:18:20Z fewdea: hello. I implemented my first defsystem. It mostly works as expected, but when I load my system, it seems to redefine every definition for all the packages i'm using. for example: WARNING: redefining UIOP/BACKWARD-DRIVER:COERCE-PATHNAME in DEFUN ... is this expected behavior?
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2016-02-06T18:54:55Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/quarterly/volume3.html
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2016-02-06T19:49:01Z Baggers: fewdea: Sorry I can't answer your actual question. But if you are doing this so your project is asdf loadable, then quickproject may be of interest to you.
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2016-02-06T20:35:12Z fewdea: Baggers, thanks for the tip, I'll have a look at quickproject, though it doesn't appear that it will help me in this case.
2016-02-06T20:36:32Z fewdea: The problem is that if my system depends-on hunchentoot, and then i asdf:load-system, I receive a long list of warnings. it seems like every method in uiop, among others, is being redefined
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2016-02-06T20:41:00Z kenanb: is there a recommended naming convention over generic functions that dispatch over a specific class, especially accessors
2016-02-06T20:41:49Z kenanb: I've seen some use :accessor X-OF for slot X, some just use :accessor X
2016-02-06T20:42:45Z kenanb: and some people seem to prefer C-X, C being the class name
2016-02-06T20:43:37Z Shinmera: I've almost never seen x-of
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2016-02-06T20:44:16Z Shinmera: I've seen and used c-x when the slot had a name that was already taken by a CL function or some other function/class that couldn't be conflated.
2016-02-06T20:44:35Z Shinmera: but usually I think just x is the default.
2016-02-06T20:44:48Z kenanb: Shinmera: IIRC I remember that particular naming from Alexander Lehmann's code
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2016-02-06T20:46:31Z mtl_: Shinmera: yeah this is what I do aswell
2016-02-06T20:46:34Z kenanb: Shinmera: I did that too but then became uncomfy with the inconsistency of accessor naming
2016-02-06T20:46:46Z Shinmera: inconsistency where?
2016-02-06T20:46:51Z mtl_: also class-slot fits with the functions defined by defstruct
2016-02-06T20:46:53Z mtl_: so that's a plus
2016-02-06T20:47:27Z kenanb: Shinmera: sometimes X sometimes C-X so you need to check back to be sure
2016-02-06T20:47:34Z Shinmera: I hardly ever use defstruct, and c-x is usually tediously verbose, so I try to avoid it where I can.
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2016-02-06T20:48:02Z Shinmera: kenanb: ah, right. if it's just a single slot I tend to try and think of a better/different/slightly more/less verbose name to avoid having to do that.
2016-02-06T20:48:16Z kenanb: I kinda like x-of because that makes it very obvious that the function is an accessor, but I don't use it because most people don't
2016-02-06T20:48:44Z mtl_: Shinmera: you can always rename the slot, too I guess
2016-02-06T20:48:55Z mtl_: if it conflicts with something I mean
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2016-02-06T20:52:07Z kenanb: Edi seems to always use the slot name as accessor, which is again kind of convenient, why not avail it while it is Lisp-2 :)
2016-02-06T20:52:59Z kenanb: mtl_: I totally forgot about struct thing, good point actually.
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2016-02-06T20:53:59Z Baggers: hey folks, I would like to make a script that does the equivalent of `sbcl -eval "(ql:quickload :thing)" -eval "(thing:stuff)"` but that works for most lisps. Is something like cl-launch overkill for this? I used it's --no-include option and the script generated is pretty intimidating.
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2016-02-06T20:59:18Z kenanb: Baggers: I don't see any problems with the script being big as long as it is reliable. If absent, I would add a comment at the beginning that states script is generated using library X with the code Y, so if anyone tries to contribute, they do not try to modify generated code.
2016-02-06T21:00:08Z Shinmera: Baggers: I thought a thing like this existed already
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2016-02-06T21:01:55Z Baggers: Shinmera: I hope it does, I just havent found it yet
2016-02-06T21:02:24Z Shinmera: I can't recall what it's called for the life of me
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2016-02-06T21:02:50Z Shinmera: I know there's a thing pjb did called cl-all that runs something on all lisps at once to test, but I thought there was something else too.
2016-02-06T21:03:01Z Baggers: kenanb: my thoughts exactly, however it makes porting that script to windows a bit of a task :) maybe cl-launch handles that too <goes off to read up on that>
2016-02-06T21:06:46Z dptd tests code pasting
2016-02-06T21:07:02Z dptd: (defmacro with-gensyms ((&rest names) &body body)
2016-02-06T21:07:02Z dptd:   `(let ,(loop for n in names collect `(,n (gensyms)))
2016-02-06T21:07:02Z dptd:   ,@body))
2016-02-06T21:07:28Z dptd: Can anyone explain me why (&rest names) must be in additional parantheses?
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2016-02-06T21:07:56Z Bike: It's called like (with-gensyms (foo bar) `(do-stuff ...)), right?
2016-02-06T21:08:10Z dptd: yeap
2016-02-06T21:08:19Z Bike: Without the parentheses, it would be called like (with-gensyms foo bar `(do-stuff ...)), but then it would be difficult to tell where the names end and the body begins.
2016-02-06T21:08:21Z dptd: It's an example from Practical Common Lisp book.
2016-02-06T21:08:47Z dptd: Hmmm, makes sense. I am still confused sometimes with the parentheses.
2016-02-06T21:08:49Z Bike: it's taking advantage of the macro recursive lambda lists, see. it's saying "the rest of the elements in this list".
2016-02-06T21:09:02Z dptd: Thanks. :) This channel is awesome.
2016-02-06T21:09:08Z Bike: You could do almost the same thing with (defmacro with-gensyms (names &body body) ...), but then "names" could be a non-list.
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2016-02-06T21:09:53Z dptd: So you could use this macro to set only one name, right?
2016-02-06T21:10:21Z Bike: the one i just wrote?
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2016-02-06T21:10:57Z dptd: yeap
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2016-02-06T21:11:25Z Bike: like i said, it's almost the same. A call like (with-gensyms (foo) `(do-stuff ...)) would work the same with either lambda list.
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2016-02-06T21:12:28Z dptd: I will go and play around with it then. Thanks for your help. :)
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2016-02-06T21:26:07Z kenanb: is there an equality predicate for two symbols that is insensitive to the packages they are interned. I can get symbol-name's and compare them, I guess that would be the best way?
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2016-02-06T21:29:09Z jackdaniel: kenanb: if you want to compare symbol names, then imo yes (ie bah:xxx and foo:xxx)
2016-02-06T21:29:42Z kenanb: jackdaniel: yep
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2016-02-06T21:32:35Z Bike: string= on the symbol-names, yes.
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2016-02-06T21:35:56Z kenanb: when we READ a file, how do we set the package the symbols are going to be interned?
2016-02-06T21:36:17Z kenanb: outside the file I mean
2016-02-06T21:36:58Z kenanb: without using an in-package form or explicit package qualifiers in the file forms
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2016-02-06T21:38:41Z kenanb: setting *package* dynamically?
2016-02-06T21:38:45Z Bike: yep.
2016-02-06T21:38:53Z Bike: (let ((*package* whatever)) (read ...))
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2016-02-06T22:00:18Z scymtym: STRING= also works on symbols - no need to go through SYMBOL-NAME
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2016-02-06T22:02:39Z kenanb: I wonder, is a google search on "string=" result in similar weird stuff in your browsers :D
2016-02-06T22:03:29Z kenanb: all the text results are programming related, the first row of images on top are completely absurd
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2016-02-06T22:06:35Z phoe_krk: absurd?
2016-02-06T22:06:37Z phoe_krk: no
2016-02-06T22:06:47Z phoe_krk: that's what normal, non-programmer people think about when they think "string"
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2016-02-06T22:09:50Z kenanb: yeah but it is not string it is string=
2016-02-06T22:10:09Z mood: Search engines tend to ignore symbols, including =
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2016-02-06T22:11:16Z kenanb: hmm you are right the text results also match string not string=
2016-02-06T22:11:41Z kenanb: didn't realize it totally ignores them
2016-02-06T22:13:13Z kenanb: I was trying to say irrelevant btw, weird was a weird word choice
2016-02-06T22:13:34Z kenanb: anyway, sorry for off-topic
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2016-02-06T22:18:07Z kenanb: scymtym: hmm, and that is standard compliant behaviour of string=, cool!
2016-02-06T22:18:21Z kenanb: scymtym: thanks!
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2016-02-06T22:23:11Z scymtym: kenanb: no problem. symbols are string designators
2016-02-06T22:23:58Z scymtym: (and googling that actually works)
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2016-02-07T02:56:23Z phoe_krk: that feel
2016-02-07T02:56:35Z phoe_krk: when you thought you had a bug in your code
2016-02-07T02:56:41Z phoe_krk: and it turned out the code was correct
2016-02-07T02:56:47Z phoe_krk: the bug was in your head
2016-02-07T02:57:16Z |3b|: and you are working on sound code, and it is an actual bug, like in your ear? :p
2016-02-07T02:57:20Z phoe_krk: fsck haskell, I'm taking a break. this stuff is making me high.
2016-02-07T02:57:24Z phoe_krk: no, it was stuff like.
2016-02-07T02:58:17Z phoe_krk: List [List [Atom (Symbol "lambda"), List [Atom (Symbol "x")], List [Atom (Symbol "cons"), Atom (Symbol "x"), List [Atom (Symbol "quote"), Atom (Symbol "t")]]], Atom (Symbol "t")]
2016-02-07T02:58:21Z phoe_krk: List [List [Atom (Symbol "lambda"), List [Atom (Symbol "x")], List [Atom (Symbol "cons"), Atom (Symbol "x"), List [Atom (Symbol "quote"), List [Atom (Symbol "t")]]]], Atom (Symbol "t")]
2016-02-07T02:58:41Z phoe_krk: Tiny differences.
2016-02-07T02:58:46Z phoe_krk: Exceptions galore.
2016-02-07T02:58:49Z IAmRasputin: Studies have shown that extended amounts of time working in Haskell can be bad for your mental health
2016-02-07T02:58:55Z phoe_krk: I know.
2016-02-07T02:59:03Z phoe_krk: But that's a project I have to do.
2016-02-07T02:59:08Z phoe_krk: Once and for all.
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2016-02-07T03:00:12Z phoe_krk: Well. The Roots of Lisp says that the second argument given to cons is expected to be a list.
2016-02-07T03:00:24Z phoe_krk: And that's the paper I'm implementing against.
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2016-02-07T03:00:36Z phoe_krk: So (cons t t) doesn't really work anymore.
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2016-02-07T03:01:30Z phoe_krk: Again, I'm using Haskell's lists to represent everything and I don't want/need improper lists now.
2016-02-07T03:01:31Z Bike: that's surprising. i would have expected early lisps to have dotted things all over.
2016-02-07T03:01:44Z phoe_krk: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/ldc/llog/jmc.pdf
2016-02-07T03:02:03Z phoe_krk: the only dots here are in function names he uses.
2016-02-07T03:02:21Z Bike: Oh. So not historical.
2016-02-07T03:02:28Z phoe_krk: Ahuh, not historical.
2016-02-07T03:02:45Z phoe_krk: I'm not mad enough to make my own Cons type and write lists as series of linked conses.
2016-02-07T03:02:58Z phoe_krk: I'm already writing in Haskell so my sanity is endangered.
2016-02-07T03:03:01Z Bike: you're verbose enough for that anyway, if i may say
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2016-02-07T03:03:29Z phoe_krk: The one assumption in the beginning I've made is, everything is either an atom or a list.
2016-02-07T03:03:41Z phoe_krk: And atoms are, in my impl, ints/strings/symbols.
2016-02-07T03:04:00Z Bike: so null isn't an atom?
2016-02-07T03:04:19Z phoe_krk: Technically, Graham defines it as an empty list.
2016-02-07T03:04:32Z phoe_krk: But, of course, my definition of (atom x) returns t when given a ().
2016-02-07T03:04:59Z phoe_krk: Internally, though, () is just a List [].
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2016-02-07T03:06:10Z phoe_krk: http://lpaste.net/6703332072217378816 is the code I have now
2016-02-07T03:08:12Z IAmRasputin: So you're implementing Lisp in Haskell?
2016-02-07T03:08:59Z Bike: eval returns a tuple with an environment?
2016-02-07T03:09:08Z Bike: oh, the altered environment, i'm guessing.
2016-02-07T03:10:25Z phoe_krk: IAmRasputin: Yes
2016-02-07T03:10:27Z phoe_krk: Bike: yes.
2016-02-07T03:10:31Z phoe_krk: it's required for define.
2016-02-07T03:11:00Z phoe_krk: And a lambda, for example, which I hope I got right.
2016-02-07T03:11:01Z Bike: no f/subrs yet, sad
2016-02-07T03:11:06Z phoe_krk: f/subrs?
2016-02-07T03:11:16Z Bike: built in functions
2016-02-07T03:11:24Z phoe_krk: Just atoms right now.
2016-02-07T03:11:37Z Bike: having car special-cased in eval isn't something i like much, personally, is all
2016-02-07T03:11:45Z phoe_krk: I think I got lambda right at the moment, so I need to implement label.
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2016-02-07T03:12:11Z phoe_krk: Bike: I want to do it the Graham way, especially because my teacher will check it that way, too
2016-02-07T03:12:26Z phoe_krk: If it's written as a primitive operator, then let it stay one.
2016-02-07T03:12:51Z Bike: being a primitive operator doesn't mean it has to be in eval, 's all
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2016-02-07T03:13:29Z phoe_krk: ...well, technically
2016-02-07T03:13:56Z phoe_krk: I don't know where else I'd implement it.
2016-02-07T03:14:16Z phoe_krk: I can't do it in Lisp, obviously, because I need a car to implement a car.
2016-02-07T03:15:04Z phoe_krk: I think a case in eval's definition is a proper way to do it.
2016-02-07T03:15:19Z Bike: tis' not a big deal, i guess.
2016-02-07T03:16:05Z phoe_krk: I'm just curious where else you'd put car's definition, Bike.
2016-02-07T03:16:58Z Bike: usually i have a separate "combine" gf that takes an operand, operator, and environment, and then have a method on it that specializes on an "fsubr" object that the "car" symbol is bound to.
2016-02-07T03:17:14Z phoe_krk: Oh, I see.
2016-02-07T03:17:28Z Bike: in cl it would be something like (defmethod ((operand fsubr) operator env) (funcall (fsubr-fun operand) operator env))), which i guess you could do in haskell now t hat i think about it.
2016-02-07T03:17:33Z phoe_krk: I have these seven primitive function definitions directly embedded into eval.
2016-02-07T03:17:50Z Bike: er, defmethod should have the gf name in it. i suppose.
2016-02-07T03:18:34Z phoe_krk: But I'll stick to this for now. This way I can keep this lisp minimal, code-wise.
2016-02-07T03:18:49Z Bike: the thing is if you keep going you'll end up with more than seven primitives. i guess that's no issue if this is homework.
2016-02-07T03:19:23Z phoe_krk: Yes, I also have lambda, I have define and I'll also need label.
2016-02-07T03:19:37Z phoe_krk: I think that's all.
2016-02-07T03:20:03Z Bike: huh, label? i thought graham was a lisp-1 kinda dude
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2016-02-07T03:20:36Z Bike: ah. says letrec is annoying to do. fair enough.
2016-02-07T03:21:10Z phoe_krk: No no, it's a Lisp-1.
2016-02-07T03:21:20Z phoe_krk: label is just for allowing functions to recur.
2016-02-07T03:21:43Z Bike: well, right, but you don't actually need it.
2016-02-07T03:22:05Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-02-07T03:22:16Z phoe_krk: I'm. Not. Writing. A. Y-combinator.
2016-02-07T03:23:44Z Bike: he he.
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2016-02-07T03:24:22Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/6xqINYH.jpg
2016-02-07T03:24:48Z Bike: it's not that bad, honestly. if you name the subparts it's perfectly understandable.
2016-02-07T03:25:07Z Bike: probably kind of verbose, in your notation, but that's what a reader is for! it's like extra credit
2016-02-07T03:25:22Z phoe_krk: ;_;
2016-02-07T03:25:27Z phoe_krk: I'm already doing extra credit
2016-02-07T03:26:13Z phoe_krk: I chose a Lisp interpreter over doing stuff like calculating a rook polynominal or something
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2016-02-07T03:27:40Z phoe_krk: which is a very, very simple recursive problem
2016-02-07T03:27:43Z phoe_krk: compared to *this*
2016-02-07T03:28:22Z Bike: oh, you should have done that. generating functions are great.
2016-02-07T03:31:44Z phoe_krk: Yes, I know.
2016-02-07T03:31:53Z phoe_krk: But I wanted Lisp. ;_;
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2016-02-07T04:01:28Z Heranort: i meet some problem testing the code showed in Let Over Lambda. as is pasted there:
2016-02-07T04:01:30Z Heranort: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KNR.
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2016-02-07T04:02:01Z Heranort: the macro defining nif seems not expanding as expired
2016-02-07T04:02:09Z Bike: is it backquote? of course it's backquote.
2016-02-07T04:02:22Z Bike: Are you using sbcl?
2016-02-07T04:02:31Z Heranort: yeah
2016-02-07T04:02:44Z Heranort: the sbcl has treated ,g!result as a symbol
2016-02-07T04:02:59Z Bike: defmacro/g! does not work on sbcl, because defmacro/g! does things with backquote forms that are not supported by the standard.
2016-02-07T04:03:01Z Heranort: but i'm expecting g!result, not the backquated one
2016-02-07T04:03:25Z Heranort: wow then what kind of implementation is suitable?
2016-02-07T04:03:52Z Bike: I dunno, CCL? You shouldn't use defmacro/g!, basically, it's not conformant code.
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2016-02-07T04:04:41Z Heranort: sure kind of black magic, but i found it quite convenient to use
2016-02-07T04:05:23Z Bike: It's not a matter of magic, it's a matter of undefined behavior.
2016-02-07T04:05:52Z Heranort: well seriously, isn't LOL a good book for learning macros??
2016-02-07T04:06:27Z Bike: Not if it doesn't tell you when it's using UB.
2016-02-07T04:07:28Z Heranort: ahh..
2016-02-07T04:09:22Z fewdea: hey Bike, you're familiar with asdf? i have kind of an annoying question that's been bugging me all day
2016-02-07T04:09:34Z Bike: only a bit. i'm not a wizard or nothing.
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2016-02-07T04:09:45Z Bike: but, you know, shoot.
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2016-02-07T04:12:22Z fewdea: i'm making a web app, and want to do it proper, so putting it into a system for asdf. in my defsystem, i say it depends on hunchentoot. when I load my system, it gives me a long list of "redefining" warnings, mostly for uiop. my guess is that uiop is already loaded by asdf, and hunchentoot is depending on it too, so it gets double loaded. am i doing something wrong?
2016-02-07T04:12:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe_krk: I've only skimmed the logs, but Lisp In Small Parts, anything by Matt Might (http://matt.might.net/articles/implementing-a-programming-language/), and if you're using Haskell, (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours_ would all be nice resources for writing a lisp.
2016-02-07T04:13:29Z Bike: you have uiop just as a regular :depends-on, right? if so, i don't think you're doing anything wrong, and I don't know why you're getting all those warnings, sorry.
2016-02-07T04:13:40Z Bike: lisp in small pieces, yes?
2016-02-07T04:13:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: oh right
2016-02-07T04:13:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: those are two different books, aren't they?
2016-02-07T04:14:10Z Bike: i dunno, i've never heard of lisp in small ports.
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2016-02-07T04:14:12Z fewdea: it's not really a problem i suppose, just unsightly
2016-02-07T04:14:19Z Bike: oh. it's a web tutorial. whaddya know.
2016-02-07T04:14:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: thanks internet :(
2016-02-07T04:14:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Nobody could resist naming their book LISP.
2016-02-07T04:14:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: or tutorial
2016-02-07T04:15:18Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: I'm using these. :P
2016-02-07T04:15:33Z phoe_krk: and also a few other resources.
2016-02-07T04:16:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: How are you not already done? Are you trying to make it good or something?
2016-02-07T04:16:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: Decent is the enemy of sleeping in.
2016-02-07T04:17:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh right, Haskell.
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2016-02-07T04:17:30Z mordocai: fewdea: Are you in slime/sly when you load it? I noticed I get a lot of those redefinition warnings when I load in sly but not when I load just straight from the terminal.
2016-02-07T04:18:40Z fewdea: mordocai, embarassingly i'm not using slime. I'm a vim user and emacs scares me lol :/  ... this happens when I do (asdf:load-system :my-project) from the sbcl repl
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2016-02-07T04:19:18Z mordocai: fewdea: You can always try spacemacs! I'm not sure why you are getting those then, it is possible hunchentoot is at fault.
2016-02-07T04:19:27Z mordocai: Though seems unlikelyu
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2016-02-07T04:20:06Z fewdea: it's probably something i'm doing. postmodern is doing similar things on load
2016-02-07T04:20:07Z phoe_krk: Yes, Haskell.
2016-02-07T04:20:12Z phoe_krk: But I think I have a working lambda now.
2016-02-07T04:20:18Z phoe_krk: Which is a major step forwards.
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2016-02-07T05:20:30Z learning: how do the opengl bindings work for lisp? is it actually calling C code that then calls the opengl API?
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2016-02-07T05:44:09Z mordocai: learning: more or less yeah. The lisp wrappers make it feel a bit nicer than that though. See #lispgames if you want a discussion with people who use it regularly.
2016-02-07T05:44:41Z |3b|: learning: cl-opengl uses a lisp library called CFFI, which calls implementation specific things to call C APIs from shared libs
2016-02-07T05:46:04Z |3b|: many implementations implement C ABI directly, and can generate the calls directly, some use things like libffi, which is a C lib for calling arbitrary C functions
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2016-02-07T06:49:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-07T06:54:14Z opcode: hey, can the lisps that compile to native code still make use of the "data is code" idea?
2016-02-07T06:54:24Z beach: Yes
2016-02-07T06:54:35Z opcode: so how does it work, do they just recompile themselves on disk?
2016-02-07T06:54:36Z opcode: that seems slow
2016-02-07T06:54:51Z beach: What do disks have to do with it?
2016-02-07T06:55:03Z opcode: you tell me
2016-02-07T06:55:18Z beach: Disks have nothing to do with compilation.
2016-02-07T06:55:30Z opcode: maybe if you're being pedantic
2016-02-07T06:55:40Z opcode: if i use g++ i get an ELF on disk
2016-02-07T06:56:00Z opcode: my understanding is that the compiling lisps work the same wa
2016-02-07T06:56:02Z opcode: way
2016-02-07T06:56:11Z beach: You are confusing "batch processing" and "compilation"
2016-02-07T06:56:25Z opcode: maybe
2016-02-07T06:57:21Z opcode: in any case, can you clear up the confusion or are you just going to adopt the standard Freenode condescension?
2016-02-07T06:58:47Z beach: Compilation (at least in this context) means translating source code to native code.  That can be done in RAM and does not need to involve disk.  A typical Common Lisp compiler compiles a small unit of code such as a function in main memory.
2016-02-07T07:00:06Z beach: It typically happens when you type a form to be evaluated to the REPL (Read Eval Print Loop), and it is so fast that you don't notice it.
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2016-02-07T07:02:55Z beach: Interestingly, this confusion between "batch processing" and "compilation" is often a reason why commercial software projects do not choose a dynamic language (which compiles incrementally) because the project members are not knowledgeable enough to know the difference, so a huge amount of human effort is wasted to ignorance.
2016-02-07T07:03:23Z beach: One hopes that they are at least happy in their ignorance.
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2016-02-07T07:03:52Z opcode: wow, i was about to ask a follow-up but holy god you are pretentious
2016-02-07T07:03:55Z opcode: never mind.
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2016-02-07T07:06:07Z beach: I guess I must have touched a sore spot.
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2016-02-07T07:44:36Z loke``: beach: Was touched one way or another. And it happened after your first message. I think he stopped reading at that point, so he didn't realise that you actually answered his entire question.
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2016-02-07T08:02:11Z beach: loke``: That's entirely possible, yes.  Interesting way of conducting a discussion, I think.
2016-02-07T08:03:05Z beach: I must have mellowed a lot over the years.  I can remember a time when I would have been upset by someone like opcode.
2016-02-07T08:04:08Z loke``: beach: Same here. Comes with expeirnce i think.
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2016-02-07T08:04:25Z beach: Maybe so, yes.
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2016-02-07T08:09:27Z pullmeunder: I was scared and wanted to prove myself :)
2016-02-07T08:11:06Z beach: pullmeunder: Did you take your nick from a song by Dream Theater?
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2016-02-07T08:13:23Z beach: Here is a live performance of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C98sOdWjtsw
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2016-02-07T09:57:16Z pjb: minion: memo for dptd: you can use and configure w3m in emacs to browse the web (or local html files), including the Hyperspec (common linux distributions have a hyperspec package installing a local copy). Also, gcl is distributed with a version of the Hyperspec in info format!
2016-02-07T09:57:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dptd when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-07T10:04:20Z pjb: CompanionCube: in CL too, everything's an object, and we mean it.  And notice that in Smalltalk too, some objects are processed specially by the Smalltalk compiler (eg. number objects get a wholly different code generator than usual objects), just like in CL there are "built-in" object classes, vs. structure classes vs. CLOS classes.
2016-02-07T10:04:44Z pjb: CompanionCube: notice that generic functions and methods can be applied to any lisp object.
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2016-02-07T10:16:34Z pjb: minion: memo for warweasel: somebody wrote on NeXTSTEP (in the early 1990's) a program learning to balance a broomstick on an otter's nose.  I guess you could patch it to balance weasels on a rake.
2016-02-07T10:16:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-07T10:22:00Z pjb: fewdea: do you remember this ST TOS episode where two planets were waging war, thru computer simulations, and when a town was destroyed, people would be directed to suicide booths?
2016-02-07T10:24:53Z pjb: fewdea: otherwise, recent researches and theories hypothese that communications between parallel universes would be possible.  A soul could be a being in a parallel universe, communicating with a body in this universe.  Perfectly consitent mathematically with known quantum mechanics and cosmology.
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2016-02-07T10:31:08Z beach: pjb: Built-in classes and structure classes are also CLOS classes, just not standard classes.
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2016-02-07T10:35:23Z pjb: True.  By CLOS classes I was meaning only standard classes, but CLOS covers them all, indeed.
2016-02-07T10:37:14Z pjb: minion: memo for kenanb: now I understand why mathematicians named it "string theory" :-)
2016-02-07T10:37:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kenanb when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-07T10:52:45Z Th30n: How can I inspect the values of let binding in slime debugger?
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2016-02-07T10:53:51Z H4ns: Th30n: go to the stack frame (i.e. function) with the arrow keys, then press enter.  you'll see the bindings local to that frame and can inspect them.
2016-02-07T10:53:57Z pjb: Th30n: breaking inside the let form should let sldb show you the variables.
2016-02-07T10:54:14Z Th30n: Ok thanks, it seems I forgot to put the debug declaration
2016-02-07T10:54:22Z pjb: Th30n: be sure to compile with (declaim (optimize (debug 3)))
2016-02-07T10:54:29Z Th30n: ^^ :D
2016-02-07T10:54:42Z pjb: Telepathy is faster than keyboard typing…
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2016-02-07T11:08:01Z k-stz: how do you move to the previous page in the slime-inspector?
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2016-02-07T11:08:57Z k-stz: ah 'slime-inspector-pop
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2016-02-07T11:51:40Z porky11: hi, is it possible to bind functions dynamic in cl?
2016-02-07T11:52:48Z Shinmera: You can bind a function to a dynamic variable and then funcall it.
2016-02-07T11:53:19Z shka: trying to find example of how to perform random testing in fiveam
2016-02-07T11:53:53Z shka: does anyboy happen have a source code with it?
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2016-02-07T11:56:44Z porky11: Shinmera: that's the way I did it first, but it seems not a good way, if there are many dynamic functions
2016-02-07T11:57:07Z Shinmera: porky11: direct function calls are compiled, so you can't dynamically rebind them, only lexically.
2016-02-07T11:57:30Z Shinmera: On the other hand, if you need to do that kind of thing a lot, perhaps the problem lies elsewhere?
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2016-02-07T11:58:15Z White_Flame: porky11: you need to view this in terms of bndings to lambda values, not defuns
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2016-02-07T12:00:17Z shka: porky11: what are you trying to do?
2016-02-07T12:00:28Z shka: wouldn't be it better to use handler-bind?
2016-02-07T12:00:46Z porky11: I only want to be able to change the functions for different user-interfaces
2016-02-07T12:01:26Z shka: i see
2016-02-07T12:01:27Z porky11: for example output to terminal or to some graphical interface
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2016-02-07T12:01:42Z Shinmera: Sounds like a case for generic functions.
2016-02-07T12:01:45Z shka: and you really hate OOP, right? ;-)
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2016-02-07T12:05:45Z porky11: i only didn't have an object to dispatch on, so I didn't think much about it, but it seems to be a better solution than using hashtables
2016-02-07T12:06:24Z Shinmera: Well you obviously have the type of graphical interface to dispatch on.
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2016-02-07T13:16:36Z sytse: 11:54:27 < pjb> Telepathy is faster than keyboard typing…
2016-02-07T13:16:40Z sytse: pjb: I disagree.
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2016-02-07T13:17:05Z sytse: pjb: if you (or my computer) were able to look inside my mind, you'd be so confused we'd get *nothing* done :-)
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2016-02-07T13:34:14Z Th30n: sytse: Ha ha :D But in this particular case it worked :)
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2016-02-07T13:45:54Z DeadTrickster_: do we have something like IEnumerable or any other way to implement sequence-like objects with common iteration interface?
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2016-02-07T13:50:06Z DeadTrickster_: looks like cl21 might have what I'm looking for
2016-02-07T13:50:10Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: SBCL (and ABCL, iirc) has http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Extensible-Sequences
2016-02-07T13:50:26Z DeadTrickster_: one in a while I want to be portable, huh
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2016-02-07T15:53:06Z learning: > beach: I guess I must have touched a sore spot.
2016-02-07T15:53:17Z learning: i thoguht your explanation was really good and learned a lot from it
2016-02-07T15:55:19Z DeadTrickster_: now kiss
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2016-02-07T15:59:18Z loke``: Hello
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2016-02-07T16:04:31Z beach: learning: Thanks.  My wife says I should not have used the words "ignorance" and "ignorant" if I wanted to stay friends with opcode.
2016-02-07T16:04:42Z beach: Hello loke``.
2016-02-07T16:05:22Z loke``: beach: Your wife didn't know that you had no interest in being friends with him?
2016-02-07T16:05:54Z beach: Only after I told her so. :)
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2016-02-07T16:06:13Z loke``: ♫ ♫ Napalm Death - Timeless Flogging ♫ ♫
2016-02-07T16:06:16Z loke``: Yay!
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2016-02-07T16:09:24Z moore33: beach:She's too sensitive :) (didn't see the original exchange)
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2016-02-07T16:11:02Z beach: Friends are important to her.
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2016-02-07T16:12:42Z moore33: yes
2016-02-07T16:20:56Z beach: I can't decide whether to submit a second paper to ELS, and if so on what topic.  I know I will submit one on Cluffer.  It is not quite finished, but nearly so: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
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2016-02-07T16:23:04Z drmeister: What does CALL-METHOD do in CLOS?
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2016-02-07T16:23:39Z drmeister: the AMOP doesn't have an entry for CALL-METHOD in the index and I'm flipping through pages trying to find an explanation.
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2016-02-07T16:23:44Z phf: hello, does anybody know a mirror for ftp://ftp.parc.xerox.com/pub/cl/ ?
2016-02-07T16:23:54Z beach: clhs call-method
2016-02-07T16:23:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_call_m.htm
2016-02-07T16:24:10Z beach: drmeister: ↑
2016-02-07T16:24:44Z drmeister: Thanks - I wasted half an hour trying to figure out from AMOP
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2016-02-07T16:26:22Z phf: there's a bunch of copies of dpANS floating around, but i thought there were proceedings and various notes in that /cl/ folder too, but it's been removed who knows how long ago
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2016-02-07T16:34:16Z drmeister: I was mistaken when I said that I'd removed special variables from gf dispatch in ECL CLOS.
2016-02-07T16:34:48Z drmeister: I broke something and I don't understand the underpinnings of generic functions well enough
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2016-02-07T16:35:30Z drmeister: Well, let me put it this way.  I got things working well enough that Cleavir compiles.
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2016-02-07T16:35:51Z drmeister: But when I load a system with ASDF there is a crash that is related to generic function dispatch.
2016-02-07T16:37:27Z beach: :(
2016-02-07T16:37:29Z drmeister: One thing that puzzles me is effective methods vs individual methods
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2016-02-07T16:38:02Z beach: That's an easy one.
2016-02-07T16:38:48Z drmeister: I understand the standard method combination before, primary, after stuff.  It's more the implementation details.
2016-02-07T16:40:12Z drmeister: Here's a more specific question:
2016-02-07T16:40:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hmg7VkoN/
2016-02-07T16:40:38Z drmeister: This is the MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA function that Clasp now uses.
2016-02-07T16:41:12Z drmeister: The lambda expression returned takes the arguments: (.method-args. .next-methods. ,@(cadr method-lambda))
2016-02-07T16:41:16Z drmeister: Is that acceptable?
2016-02-07T16:42:14Z beach: mop make-method-lambda
2016-02-07T16:42:14Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda.html
2016-02-07T16:42:35Z drmeister: I have read that more than two dozen times.
2016-02-07T16:42:56Z beach: It was for me.
2016-02-07T16:43:09Z drmeister: Thanks - I'm not being snarky
2016-02-07T16:43:17Z beach: I know.
2016-02-07T16:43:30Z drmeister: Just saying.  I've read it many times and I'm still asking basic questions :-)
2016-02-07T16:44:14Z beach: "By default, all method functions must accept two arguments: the list of arguments to the generic function and the list of next methods."
2016-02-07T16:44:21Z beach: But I don't know what "By default" means here.
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2016-02-07T16:44:28Z drmeister: I believe this lambda list is acceptable because AMOP says "When a method is actually called by an effective method, its first argument will be a list of arguments to the generic function. Its remaining arguments will be all but the first argument passed to call-method.
2016-02-07T16:45:45Z drmeister: "By default" is a puzzler for me as well.  I interpret it as "at the very least", or "in every case it must be that...  but you can add more arguments"
2016-02-07T16:46:17Z drmeister: The example at the bottom uses this lambda list  (args next-methods this-method)
2016-02-07T16:46:28Z drmeister: So there example adds a third argument.
2016-02-07T16:46:31Z beach: I interpret it to mean the only method defined.
2016-02-07T16:46:31Z drmeister: their
2016-02-07T16:46:55Z drmeister: The only method defined?
2016-02-07T16:47:02Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda-standard-generic-function-standard-method.html
2016-02-07T16:47:31Z beach: So if you want a different signature on the lambda expression returned, you need to use a different class of either the generic function, the method, or both.
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2016-02-07T16:48:17Z beach: Nothing prevents you from having all your system-defined generic functions to be of a different class, of course.
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2016-02-07T16:49:46Z drmeister: Ok, so if make-method-lambda is specialized on something other than a standard-generic-function or standard-method then I can use different a lambda-list structure.
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2016-02-07T16:50:22Z drmeister: Hmmm
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2016-02-07T16:51:12Z drmeister: How does everything work together then?  If methods can take different numbers of arguments how do things work together.
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2016-02-07T16:51:35Z drmeister: This is the current problem that I have.   ECL CLOS has a standard-main-effective-method function that looks like this:
2016-02-07T16:51:45Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1V8sUZpg/
2016-02-07T16:52:18Z drmeister: The lambda expression takes only two arguments and the error that I'm getting is that it is being called with six arguments.
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2016-02-07T16:53:02Z drmeister: Maybe this is a lambda expression for a standard-generic-function/standard-method specializers?
2016-02-07T16:53:07Z drmeister: Checking...
2016-02-07T16:54:46Z phoe_krk: Can't you perhaps print the whole lambda call and its arguments to see what's going on inside? Maybe the call is right but needs de/restructuring?
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2016-02-07T16:56:18Z phoe_krk: If there's six arguments in place of two then I'd like to know what they are and why their number doesn't conform to what I'd expect.
2016-02-07T16:56:18Z beach: drmeister: As far as I can tell, the only way different methods on a generic function can have different number of arguments is if they are keyword arguments.  No?
2016-02-07T16:56:38Z drmeister: phoe_krk: I modified my backtraces so that it prints that for me and I can see the mismatch between what the function wants and what it is being called with.
2016-02-07T16:56:47Z phoe_krk: Got it.
2016-02-07T16:57:03Z drmeister: beach: Yes - at that higher level.   Then there are the implementation details.
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2016-02-07T16:57:42Z beach: drmeister: Is there a reason you don't want to implement it the "default" way?
2016-02-07T16:58:03Z drmeister: What do you call the function that is associated with a method?  Is it a method function?
2016-02-07T16:58:06Z drmeister: What is a method function?
2016-02-07T16:58:14Z drmeister: I'm loosing my grip of terminology.
2016-02-07T16:58:38Z beach: I need a minute to check that.  Hold on...
2016-02-07T16:58:52Z drmeister: beach: I'm thinking of a good answer to your question.
2016-02-07T16:59:03Z drmeister: Because I am asking myself
2016-02-07T16:59:33Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-method-metaobjects.html
2016-02-07T17:00:04Z beach: The method function is what you pass as the keyword argument :FUNCTION to MAKE-INSTANCE when a method is created.
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2016-02-07T17:01:45Z beach: This section describes how the body of DEFMETHOD is converted to a method function: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/processing-method-bodies.html
2016-02-07T17:02:03Z drmeister: In ECL effective methods are directly callable methods.
2016-02-07T17:02:06Z drmeister: GR
2016-02-07T17:02:20Z drmeister: In ECL effective methods are directly callable functions.
2016-02-07T17:02:23Z beach: Effective methods are not methods.
2016-02-07T17:02:26Z beach: Right.
2016-02-07T17:02:31Z beach: That's normal.
2016-02-07T17:02:56Z drmeister: I call them like this:   (apply method .method-args. rest-methods .method-args.)
2016-02-07T17:03:31Z drmeister: APPLY .method-args. and rest-methods as the first two arguments followed by the method arguments.
2016-02-07T17:03:49Z beach: I think you are allowed to call your effective methods whatever way you like.
2016-02-07T17:04:07Z drmeister: This is so that the .method-args. and rest-methods don't have to be stored in special variables.
2016-02-07T17:04:12Z beach: But you are not allowed to call the individual method functions any way you like.
2016-02-07T17:04:42Z drmeister: Ok. so the effective-method can be called differently than the method functions that it calls?
2016-02-07T17:05:13Z drmeister: Ok.
2016-02-07T17:05:18Z beach: I am pretty sure that's the case.
2016-02-07T17:05:55Z beach: mop compute-effective-method
2016-02-07T17:05:55Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html
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2016-02-07T17:07:14Z drmeister: So that's a puzzle for me then.  How do I pass the method arguments to a method together with the .method-args. and .rest-methods.  Or am I asking the wrong question?
2016-02-07T17:07:53Z drmeister: A method does its thing with its arguments and it can call call-next-method or next-method-p and I provide those.
2016-02-07T17:09:00Z beach: I don't understand your question, actually.
2016-02-07T17:09:20Z beach: "The same way you pass arguments to other functions", no?
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2016-02-07T17:11:21Z drmeister: I'm asking the wrong question.
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2016-02-07T17:18:11Z drmeister: I'm going to go do some tracing
2016-02-07T17:19:36Z DrBoondoggle: is defvar basically the same as a const in other languages?
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2016-02-07T17:24:59Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: nope.
2016-02-07T17:25:28Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: but for historical reasons, there's been a mixup between variables and program parameters. defvar is to be used for program parameters, and defparameter for program variables.
2016-02-07T17:25:46Z DrBoondoggle: that makes sense
2016-02-07T17:25:57Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: a program parameter would be a variable that should not be modified by the program when it (re-)defines it, if it already has been defined by the code loading the program.
2016-02-07T17:26:22Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: while a program variable is the property of the program and it can do whatever it wants with it, like re-initializing it each time it's loaded.
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2016-02-07T17:28:09Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: on the other land, notice that often the package where the program interns its symbols while being loaded, is actually created when loading the program, so you couldn't define program parameters before loading the program, if they're defined in the program package!  You end up either pre-defining the program package (or a package specific for the program parameter), or defining them in the COMMON-LISP-USER package.
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2016-02-07T17:44:09Z beach: DrBoondoggle: DEFVAR is one of a few forms that CREATE special variables.
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2016-02-07T17:44:57Z beach: DrBoondoggle: The rough equivalent in C would be a definition at the top-level of a file such as int x = 10;
2016-02-07T17:45:59Z DrBoondoggle: Yea, i'm getting that I might not be able to abstract it to something I already know so I'm just going to keep plugging at it
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2016-02-07T17:47:00Z DrBoondoggle: I havn't done much c code, its always been wrapped up in C++ projects. Where they started with C and migrated to C++ sometime in the 90s
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2016-02-07T17:53:49Z blub: that part is the same in either
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2016-02-07T17:54:56Z dwchandler: pjb: "defvar is to be used for program parameters, and defparameter for program variables"
2016-02-07T17:55:11Z dwchandler: huh, my impression is the reverse of this
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2016-02-07T17:57:55Z dwchandler: I.e., given a running system, reloading a defvar doesn't change the value, so use it for *current-velocity*, say. Where you'd use defparameter for *gravitational-constant*, where if you correct it you want it redone on reload
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2016-02-07T18:16:05Z pjb: dwchandler: (defparameter *program-parameter* 42) (ql:quickload :program) (program:run)
2016-02-07T18:16:21Z pjb: dwchandler: notice that a program parameter may have compilation-time or load-time effects.
2016-02-07T18:17:29Z pjb: dwchandler: the point here is that if you have defparameter in your program, then it will erase the value previous set by the "loader" of the program.  On the other hand, if it's a defvar, then it'll be ok.
2016-02-07T18:18:12Z pjb: dwchandler: but granted, this might not be the intended usage, given the difficulties involved with packages, and read-, compilation- and load- times.
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2016-02-07T18:19:09Z pjb: dwchandler: probably one would have to deal with what I call "program parameter" either explicitely at compilation time, or purely at run-time (as in, with a set or loaded configuration).
2016-02-07T18:24:01Z dwchandler: Yeah
2016-02-07T18:24:33Z dwchandler: In the end there are the actual semantics, regardless of the intent when designed
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2016-02-07T19:11:10Z ryan1: \exit
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2016-02-07T19:51:21Z mood: I am a bit confused about something in lparallel. If I don't want to use its channels to communicate results, the return values of my tasks will end up accumulating in the channel. Do I really need to run a thread/task just to keep the channel-queue clean?
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2016-02-07T19:54:04Z mood: I guess I could make sure it's empty when starting a task, or something, but when I'm using separate queues and other mechanisms to communicate, I feel like there should be a way to ignore the return value
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2016-02-07T20:01:40Z m_zr0_: , global-warming is  <python476> when facebook pushed it's php c++ translator in production I expected to see global warming to reverse
2016-02-07T20:01:47Z m_zr0_: wrong channel.
2016-02-07T20:01:56Z m_zr0_: obviously.
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2016-02-07T20:38:16Z H4ns: common lisp - first impressions.  i find the perspective interesting: http://blog.00null.net/common-lisp-first-impressions/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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2016-02-07T20:53:48Z pjb: H4ns: I don't find the perspective interesting at all.   It was obvious you'd get this "perspective" from the day 0 of clojure popularity.  Apart from that this blog is erroneous and misguided as always, about CL.
2016-02-07T20:54:07Z pjb: But then, what can you expect from clojure programmers…
2016-02-07T20:54:35Z DrBoondoggle: what is wrong with clojure programmers?
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2016-02-07T20:54:38Z sjl: "It seems like this to me" "No, that's erroneous, it didn't seem like that to you"
2016-02-07T20:54:41Z sjl: lol
2016-02-07T20:56:11Z pjb: DrBoondoggle: they use clojure instead of Common Lisp.
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2016-02-07T20:57:30Z blub: what is #{} for in clojure
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2016-02-07T20:59:42Z sjl: blub: it's a set literal
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2016-02-07T21:01:41Z blub: oh
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2016-02-07T21:13:37Z pjb: blub: the point is that 1- there are literal notations for lisp objects. 2- you can add you own literal notation syntaxes in Common Lisp with reader macros.
2016-02-07T21:14:41Z blub: i was just curious about that one
2016-02-07T21:15:21Z pjb: User-defined Reader Macros: At this time, Clojure does not allow you to define your own reader macros, but this may change in the future
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2016-02-07T21:15:30Z pjb: CL 1 - Clojure 0.
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2016-02-07T21:15:53Z pjb: and yes, in the future, Clojure may become Common Lisp. Just like any other programming language.
2016-02-07T21:15:57Z pjb: Sure. You can count on it.
2016-02-07T21:16:01Z pjb: DUH!
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2016-02-07T21:29:09Z DeadTrickster: anyone tried to write nonblocking code with openssl?
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2016-02-07T22:13:26Z emaczen: Do you all in general recommend using update-instance-for-different-class? I wish to transform an instance into more specific type.
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2016-02-07T22:13:59Z Bike: change-class is kind of a strange function. I've never used it.
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2016-02-07T22:14:59Z emaczen: Is it correct to say that change-class is like an extendable version of coerce?
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2016-02-07T22:18:36Z Bike: no. coerce generally makes new objects. change-class alters the object iself.
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2016-02-07T22:20:11Z drmeister: Is there a way using LOOP to get the car and cdr of a list?
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2016-02-07T22:21:11Z drmeister: (loop for (x-car x-cdr) in list ...)   where x-car and x-cdr are the successive car,cdr pairs of the list
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2016-02-07T22:23:03Z Bike: (loop for (x-car . x-cdr) on list ...)?
2016-02-07T22:23:34Z drmeister: Thanks
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2016-02-07T23:07:16Z phf: does anybody by chance have a copy of http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/defservice/ talk pdf? the original has disappeared
2016-02-07T23:07:46Z phf: Xach: i saw you looking for that one in the logs, maybe you have a copy?
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2016-02-07T23:14:01Z pjb: DeadTrickster: threads?
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2016-02-07T23:21:50Z msmith: anyone have any experience with quri?
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2016-02-08T03:59:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-08T05:04:32Z resttime: beach: I'm curious about CLIMatis, is a "window" for CLiM considered the same kind of "window" that Emacs calls them?
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2016-02-08T05:06:51Z beach: resttime: Let's see if I can sort this out...
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2016-02-08T05:07:35Z beach: resttime: First, CLIMatis is an implementation of a new specification that I am working on and that I am calling CLIM3.  It is very different from CLIM II which is what is usually meant when the term CLIM is used.
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2016-02-08T05:08:45Z resttime: Oh, I saw CLiM instead of CLIM3 for how to refer to the spec.
2016-02-08T05:09:01Z resttime: Err, the introduction that is
2016-02-08T05:09:25Z beach: resttime: In CLIM II, a "window" is the same as a CLIM-STREAM-PANE, which I suppose is similar to what Emacs calls a window.
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2016-02-08T05:09:54Z beach: Ah.  But the dot over the "i" is the digit 3. :)
2016-02-08T05:10:12Z resttime: beach: Whoa lol
2016-02-08T05:10:27Z resttime: Did not see that lol.
2016-02-08T05:10:33Z beach: I don't even recall using the term "window" in CLIM3.  Did I?
2016-02-08T05:11:26Z resttime: Somewhere under the Zones section
2016-02-08T05:11:28Z beach: checking... No I didn't.
2016-02-08T05:11:41Z resttime: Some backends may choose to create a window for
2016-02-08T05:11:43Z resttime: each zone, and some others may chose to create a single window for the top
2016-02-08T05:11:43Z resttime: zone.
2016-02-08T05:11:55Z beach: Right, that would be more like an Emacs frame.
2016-02-08T05:12:11Z beach: Or rather like an X11 window I guess.
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2016-02-08T05:12:25Z beach: Yes, like an X11 window.
2016-02-08T05:12:53Z beach: It is hard to say, because it is in the discussion on backends, so it depends on what the backend means by a "window".
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2016-02-08T05:13:20Z beach: When I wrote "a window for each zone" I was thinking about nested X11 windows.
2016-02-08T05:13:42Z resttime: Ah yeah, I think that's what kind of got me a little mixed up on which one to think about.
2016-02-08T05:14:13Z beach: Thanks for pointing that out.  I should make it more clear.
2016-02-08T05:14:32Z resttime: No problem, and likewise for clarifying.
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2016-02-08T05:18:47Z jebaki: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-02-08T05:23:28Z beach: jebaki: Filled with enriching Common Lisp programming I take it?
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2016-02-08T05:25:24Z jebaki: indeed
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2016-02-08T05:30:19Z resttime: beach: How difficult would it be to write a backend like the CLX-Framebuffer?  I'm curious if I might be able to write one with something as a challenge.
2016-02-08T05:30:41Z beach: It is very simple.
2016-02-08T05:31:05Z beach: Just allocate a client-side image object and draw pixels to it.
2016-02-08T05:31:23Z beach: Then, with a single CLX call, transfer the image to the server.
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2016-02-08T05:32:30Z beach: It can be a bit slow if you transfer the entire image for each event, as I currently do, and if there are many events per time unit, such as when an X11 window is resized.
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2016-02-08T05:33:29Z resttime: I'm on a Windows 7 machine ehehehe...
2016-02-08T05:33:36Z resttime: Hmmm, so basically draw things to an image and have something display it.
2016-02-08T05:33:44Z beach: Yeah.
2016-02-08T05:33:59Z beach: I have no idea how Windows works, though.
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2016-02-08T05:38:38Z resttime: Hmmmm, this might actually be doable for me (surprisingly).  If I were to be able to cover all of the functioning of the CLX-Framebuffer, does that mean the backend is "complete"?
2016-02-08T05:39:35Z resttime: Err, because I'm curious about second-climacs and it would be nice if I could run that afterwards (if I were to hypothetically do this).
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2016-02-08T05:45:20Z beach: resttime: Notice that CLIMatis is incomplete though.  I don't have presentation types yet, so I can't input a file name in Second Climacs.
2016-02-08T05:45:37Z beach: resttime: But I am working on putting a CLIM II GUI on Second Climacs.
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2016-02-08T05:49:51Z beach: resttime: Am I to understand that you don't have access to a machine with GNU/Linux?
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2016-02-08T05:51:08Z resttime: Yeah, but I should tomorrow I think.  Though it's more that I've started doing more things with Emacs like writing an "in-house" major mode to help me translate some material so I thought, "I could have probably done this in Climacs"
2016-02-08T05:51:23Z resttime: And got curious about it
2016-02-08T05:51:31Z beach: I see, yes.
2016-02-08T05:51:32Z resttime: Also been thinking about GUI programming like qith Qtools
2016-02-08T05:51:40Z resttime: *with
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2016-02-08T05:52:28Z beach: My new thinking for Second Climacs is to have better separation between the "model" and the GUI.
2016-02-08T05:52:45Z resttime: Kind of a good thing in retrospect without Linux machine lol, since I helped fix  a simple windows bug for CL+SSL and figured out a Qtools bug.
2016-02-08T05:52:53Z resttime: "model"?
2016-02-08T05:53:05Z beach: As in model/view/controller.
2016-02-08T05:53:27Z beach: Basically, everything except the GUI. :)
2016-02-08T05:55:18Z resttime: Hmmm, can you explain more in respect to how Emacs kind of functions now?
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2016-02-08T05:56:08Z beach: Oh, it's just a way of better organizing the code.
2016-02-08T05:56:17Z beach: It should not affect how it works.
2016-02-08T05:56:41Z beach: At the moment, Second Climacs is closely tied to CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2016-02-08T05:56:56Z beach: I want to change that by isolating the GUI code as much as possible.
2016-02-08T05:57:36Z resttime: Oh, I should read some of the documentation.  Just looked at the repo now, after forgetting that it existed.
2016-02-08T05:58:05Z beach: To make sure I got it right, and as an intermediate solution while waiting for CLIM3/CLIMatis to have presentation types, I am working on writing a CLIM II GUI for Second Climacs.
2016-02-08T05:59:08Z beach: I also have an excellent incremental parser for Common Lisp code.  I just need to figure out how to represent the result of the parse.
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2016-02-08T06:01:57Z resttime: Cool, I can't wait :D.  Again, after writing my first Emacs major mode I felt really awesome about it so I'm super curious about other Emacsen since I feel like I could write anything I need now.
2016-02-08T06:02:07Z resttime: Err, though that might be the smug talking lol.
2016-02-08T06:02:42Z beach: That sounds great!
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2016-02-08T06:05:55Z flip214: beach: would it be easy to add modes? insert, normal, command, etc.?   ;)
2016-02-08T06:06:40Z beach: To Second Climacs?  Of course.
2016-02-08T06:08:22Z beach: resttime: Perhaps you should look at (first) Climacs instead.  It is much more mature.
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2016-02-08T06:10:49Z resttime: Yeah, that's something I'm definitely going to do once I get once I can use my Linux machine again.
2016-02-08T06:12:00Z beach: I am afraid that if you start working on Second Climacs now, you will be disappointed, because CLIM3/CLIMatis is not ready for it, and I am doing some significant work on it at the moment.
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2016-02-08T06:16:49Z resttime: Well, that's alright, even if it isn't "ready" because it's still interesting.
2016-02-08T06:16:56Z resttime: I'm curious.
2016-02-08T06:17:06Z beach: OK, as long as you are aware of this, then it's fine.
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2016-02-08T08:28:12Z DeadTrickster: msmith, quri works
2016-02-08T08:29:35Z Shinmera: Colleen: do notify resttime I'm working on your issue now.
2016-02-08T08:29:35Z Colleen: Shinmera: Remembered. I will remind resttime when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-08T10:40:31Z msmith: DeadTrickster: only occasionally in my experience
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2016-02-08T10:42:42Z DeadTrickster: msmith, what you mean?
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2016-02-08T10:43:31Z loke``: re
2016-02-08T10:44:05Z msmith: DeadTrickster:   quri will not let me create multiple uri instances after I load my project.  which is very strange
2016-02-08T10:44:54Z msmith: Works fine in the cl-user package
2016-02-08T10:49:54Z DeadTrickster: multiple uri instances? can you create paste?
2016-02-08T10:50:25Z DeadTrickster: because I'm using it like for 5 months or so and have no problems at all
2016-02-08T10:53:38Z msmith: DeadTrickster: sure
2016-02-08T11:08:27Z loke``: What is quri?
2016-02-08T11:08:53Z msmith: DeadTrickster: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KQ1.
2016-02-08T11:09:28Z msmith: loke: a uri parsing library
2016-02-08T11:11:31Z loke``: msmith: Better than puri? I reall need something better than puri
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2016-02-08T11:12:46Z msmith: loke": it purports to be, I'm having some issues with it at the moment
2016-02-08T11:13:43Z jdz: msmith: are you sure you don't have puri loaded as well?
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2016-02-08T11:16:02Z msmith: jdz:  I do not and I have tried using the quri namespace as in quri::uri.  But there probably is some type of package conflict somewhere.  I'm pasting the packages my project depends on
2016-02-08T11:16:48Z jdz: msmith: in your backtrace, press v key on the parse-uri entry
2016-02-08T11:16:58Z jdz: it will take you to the source
2016-02-08T11:17:11Z jdz: i assume you're using slime
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2016-02-08T11:18:37Z jdz: or use eval-in-frame to check what package is the parse-uri function in
2016-02-08T11:18:49Z msmith: jdz:  here are the packages http://paste.lisp.org/+6KQ1/1.  I'll take a look
2016-02-08T11:19:16Z jdz: that will not tell you what exactly the problem is
2016-02-08T11:19:46Z DeadTrickster: looks like name conflict
2016-02-08T11:20:53Z jdz: DeadTrickster: error message does not say anything about conflicting names
2016-02-08T11:21:39Z DeadTrickster: so what? maybe he redefined parse-uri somewhere
2016-02-08T11:22:36Z jdz: how is that a name conflict?
2016-02-08T11:23:32Z msmith: DeadTrickster: I think that was it!
2016-02-08T11:23:42Z msmith: brilliant :-)
2016-02-08T11:24:00Z msmith: mamybe
2016-02-08T11:24:03Z msmith: maybe
2016-02-08T11:24:11Z DeadTrickster: lol
2016-02-08T11:24:30Z msmith: I do have a parse-uri function  defined, but is is in a certain package
2016-02-08T11:24:45Z DeadTrickster: and how many arguments it  has?
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2016-02-08T11:25:39Z msmith: DeadTrickster: only two
2016-02-08T11:25:59Z DeadTrickster: well 5 is invalid number then indeed )
2016-02-08T11:26:01Z jdz: msmith: if you checked what function exactly is called on the top of your backtrace you'd learn this
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2016-02-08T11:26:23Z DeadTrickster: jdz, yeah M-. is a way to go
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2016-02-08T11:28:21Z DeadTrickster: btw what about package locks? are they still sbcl specific?
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2016-02-08T11:29:01Z msmith: jdz: when I press v in the backtrace I get Error: Cannot find source location for : #<COMPILED-CODE-LOCATION (SB-C::TL-XEP PARSE-URI)>
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2016-02-08T11:31:23Z jdz: msmith: well, you probably do not have that definition from a compiled file, then
2016-02-08T11:32:47Z jdz: msmith: also, SBCL should have given you the warning that you're redefining quri:parse-uri
2016-02-08T11:34:13Z jdz: something like "WARNING: redefining QURI.PARSER:PARSE-URI in DEFUN"
2016-02-08T11:34:34Z msmith: yeah
2016-02-08T11:34:41Z DeadTrickster: I never get those warnings when loading with quicklisp
2016-02-08T11:35:12Z DeadTrickster: more over asdf has an options to abort on any warning (much like promoting warnings to errors in other languages)
2016-02-08T11:35:15Z jdz: DeadTrickster: maybe because you do not use the whole other package just for a single function?
2016-02-08T11:35:19Z DeadTrickster: and this flag breaks everything
2016-02-08T11:35:40Z DeadTrickster: literally every system can't cleanly load itself
2016-02-08T11:36:00Z jdz: msmith: you do not have to (use-package :quri), you can just call (quri:uri ...)
2016-02-08T11:36:06Z DeadTrickster: well I definitely would use package prefix
2016-02-08T11:36:14Z DeadTrickster: I don't like importing stuff anyway
2016-02-08T11:36:53Z msmith: I'll try that
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2016-02-08T11:40:27Z msmith: jdz: now that is interesting.  When I load quri into cl-user and use it with the namespace I get the same error
2016-02-08T11:40:35Z msmith: this is in a new repl
2016-02-08T11:40:52Z jdz: msmith: what do you mean by "load quri into cl-user"?
2016-02-08T11:40:54Z msmith: without loading my project
2016-02-08T11:41:05Z msmith: (ql:quickload :quri)
2016-02-08T11:41:23Z msmith: that's all that is loaded
2016-02-08T11:41:24Z jdz: have you restarted SBCL?
2016-02-08T11:41:34Z msmith: yes
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2016-02-08T11:42:34Z jdz: well, you could try adding a complete fresh repl session with the error to the paste
2016-02-08T11:44:00Z msmith: a complete fresh repl session?  can you save that or do you mean just copy and paste what's in the buffer?
2016-02-08T11:44:33Z jdz: no, restart SBCL and do the things you do to reproduce the problem
2016-02-08T11:45:07Z jdz: and do all the things in the REPL
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2016-02-08T12:02:24Z msmith: DeadTrickster: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KQ1/2   jdz: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KQ1/2
2016-02-08T12:02:40Z msmith: really weird
2016-02-08T12:04:23Z jdz: you said previously you get the error without loading your project
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2016-02-08T12:04:48Z jdz: or maybe i misread
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2016-02-08T12:05:43Z jdz: anyway, apparently your "myproject" still uses (in the CL:USE-PACKAGE sense) the quri package, and you're redefining the parse-uri function
2016-02-08T12:06:50Z jdz: although, now the backtrace tells that it is calling the right function...
2016-02-08T12:08:15Z jdz: so apparently you're redefining quri.parser:parse-uri
2016-02-08T12:08:38Z jdz: which makes sense, since you've _used_ the quri package
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2016-02-08T12:08:56Z jdz: so don't do that, and you're golden
2016-02-08T12:13:49Z msmith: jdz: no I get the error after loading the project.  I've taken out the use clauses in the project before reloading it.
2016-02-08T12:14:56Z jdz: msmith: did you recompile the project?
2016-02-08T12:15:17Z jdz: msmith: just to be sure, just delet all the .fasl files
2016-02-08T12:15:19Z msmith: jdz:  The problem is that I'm running these commands in cl-user and using the quri namespace.  I don't see where I could be redefining quri:parse-uri
2016-02-08T12:15:38Z msmith: ok
2016-02-08T12:15:52Z jdz: as far as i can tell you're no longer using the quri package in cl-user
2016-02-08T12:16:03Z jdz: but your project still does
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2016-02-08T14:22:13Z phoe_krk: hello
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2016-02-08T14:45:31Z warweasle: Xach: I have a few questions when you have time.
2016-02-08T14:45:51Z Xach: warweasle: i'm here
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2016-02-08T14:47:42Z warweasle: Xach: I have made major changes to Clinch (0.5 now). It requires a couple of new libraries, one of which is not available until later: rtg-math from Baggers. Also, it needs cl-freeimage, which was inside Clinch. Is there a way to "freeze" Clinch at the current version in quicklisp until I can sort this out?
2016-02-08T14:48:07Z Xach: warweasle: if you make a branch, i can use that branch
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2016-02-08T14:48:47Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, I can make one and send it to you. Make an issue?
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2016-02-08T14:53:11Z Xach: warweasle: yes, that would help.
2016-02-08T14:53:23Z Xach: warweasle: for what it's worth, clinch seems to build fine at the moment. do you expect runtime problems?
2016-02-08T14:53:39Z warweasle: Xach: Updates are the end of the month, correct?
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2016-02-08T14:54:10Z warweasle: Xach: I'll still try to have it to you by tonight or tomorrow, I'm just paranoid.
2016-02-08T14:54:14Z Xach: warweasle: i try to do them on the first weekend of the month. the past few months have been screwed up, but i actually hope to make an update today.
2016-02-08T14:54:24Z warweasle: Xach: Ack!
2016-02-08T14:54:47Z Xach: is that a bill the cat ack or an "acknowledge that welcome and happy news"?
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2016-02-08T14:55:12Z dwchandler: lol
2016-02-08T14:55:24Z warweasle: Xach: I'll have it in a few minutes 'Ack!'
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2016-02-08T14:56:47Z Xach recently moved to a very rural place and is still getting into sync with quicklisp scheduling and dealing with occasionally poor internet servic
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2016-02-08T15:09:53Z attila_lendvai: Xach: I won't be online next weekend, what are you plans for the next ql release? anything I can do?
2016-02-08T15:10:16Z Xach: attila_lendvai: I hope to make the release today, within a few hours.
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2016-02-08T15:11:00Z attila_lendvai: Xach: ok, I'll be around with some breaks, shout if I can help with something
2016-02-08T15:11:25Z Xach: Thanks
2016-02-08T15:12:40Z Shinmera: Today? Oh lord oh dear.
2016-02-08T15:13:01Z Shinmera has to hurry up and test qt-libs
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2016-02-08T15:14:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: will it contain clsql 6.7.0 ?
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2016-02-08T15:15:14Z Xach: jackdaniel: I get clsql from git, and the most recent commits include 6.7.0
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2016-02-08T15:15:16Z Xach: so, yes
2016-02-08T15:15:25Z jackdaniel: great, thanks
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2016-02-08T15:17:07Z hydan: If you do not have your copy of Practical Common Lisp, Common Lisp Recipes or Coders at work - Apress has 50% off print books now :)
2016-02-08T15:18:02Z reb`````: Xach: What rural place are you inhabiting?
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2016-02-08T15:18:35Z Xach: reb: family farmhouse in 04492, maine
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2016-02-08T15:19:25Z loke``: Xach: Where is maine?
2016-02-08T15:19:25Z Xach is getting fiber internet within a month or so, though, and things may pick up then
2016-02-08T15:19:39Z Xach: loke``: very near canada in the northeast usa.
2016-02-08T15:19:44Z reb: Xach: goodness, that's remote
2016-02-08T15:19:47Z flip214: sounds like some Stephen King outpost ;)
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2016-02-08T15:20:36Z reb: Xach: Been spending some time in 12464.  Prohibitively expensive to install internet service.
2016-02-08T15:21:29Z Xach: I am quite lucky that my former company has easy access to fiber optic just 1km from my house. the downside is that it is 1km through a swamp. a pair of radios will hopefully bridge the gap.
2016-02-08T15:21:32Z technik: Xach: I attended a wedding a couple of years ago not far from Jonesport. Nice in the summer :)
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2016-02-08T15:21:41Z Xach: that is how i will hack on quicklisp stuff rapidly!
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2016-02-08T15:22:29Z Xach: nice in winter too! https://www.flickr.com/photos/xach has some photos.
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2016-02-08T15:26:16Z technik: I grew up in the sticks, zip 12428, but there's not much work up there
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2016-02-08T15:27:03Z Cymew: hydan: Any codes to use or something?
2016-02-08T15:27:25Z hydan: Cymew: I think it is the discount for valentines
2016-02-08T15:27:35Z technik: reb: I know that area. will be splitting my time between 12401 and NYC starting in the fall
2016-02-08T15:27:44Z warweasle: Xach: Another question. I have a some binding to a physics library (ODE). Some linux distros use the single-float version. Others use doubles. cl-ode will load, but it won't always work. Can I include it with quicklisp? Is there a way to query the library (it's one expression different.)
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2016-02-08T15:28:10Z Xach: warweasle: not sure...maybe a cffi guru could help
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2016-02-08T15:28:22Z Xach: warweasle: including it in quicklisp is no problem
2016-02-08T15:28:41Z moore33: Xach: In my youth I did some sailing around there (as far east as Cutler).
2016-02-08T15:28:43Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, thanks. I have instructions for building ODE properly.
2016-02-08T15:30:06Z warweasle is adding a mess of issues to quicklisp-libraries.
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2016-02-08T15:38:17Z reb: technik: Drop by a LispNYC meeting then ...
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2016-02-08T15:41:04Z Xach: warweasle: ah, i see that clinch actually does fail to build today.
2016-02-08T15:41:27Z warweasle: Xach: Did I grab the wrong version?
2016-02-08T15:41:29Z Xach: Shinmera: problem with halftone today, too
2016-02-08T15:41:37Z Xach: warweasle: no...i mean building from master
2016-02-08T15:41:44Z Xach: Shinmera: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-08/failure-report/halftone.html#halftone
2016-02-08T15:43:43Z Shinmera: Xach: yeah, qt-libs is in flux right now, though that particular problem should be fixed on the latest commit
2016-02-08T15:43:53Z warweasle: Xach: Yes...much breaking. However, the functionality is amazing. I can start a window in two lines of code. (one is the quickload) It's multithreaded (optional but default), I can update it from the REPL, such as loading images, uploading buffer data, creating VBOs, PBOs, shader-programs, etc. It's gotten to me so much fun I'm having trouble working on clinch itself.
2016-02-08T15:44:09Z Xach: Shinmera: updating qt-libs will fix it?
2016-02-08T15:44:22Z Xach: warweasle: nice!
2016-02-08T15:44:33Z Shinmera: Xach: I hope so.
2016-02-08T15:44:37Z Xach: Shinmera: i'll try it
2016-02-08T15:44:53Z Xach: Shinmera: yes, good results
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2016-02-08T15:47:00Z Xach: warweasle: can you please add a :description to cl-freeimage?
2016-02-08T15:47:08Z warweasle: Xach: Sure.
2016-02-08T15:47:09Z Xach: also :license and :author
2016-02-08T15:47:45Z Xach: same for cl-pango
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2016-02-08T15:53:20Z technik: reb: I try but life gets in the way :)  I'm in 10025 and did make it to rpl's roof party
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2016-02-08T15:54:07Z warweasle: Xach: I updated the package info in cl-freeimage, cl-pango and clinch.
2016-02-08T15:54:31Z warweasle: Oh, wait. Not clinch.
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2016-02-08T15:55:29Z Xach: trouble with cl-pango
2016-02-08T15:55:40Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-08/failure-report/cl-pango.html
2016-02-08T15:57:06Z stardiviner: What is the initial-value-form? I want to reevaluate constant variable with (defconstant name initial-value-form). (I'm newbie on learning Common Lisp)
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2016-02-08T15:58:16Z warweasle: Xach: I ran it with :verbose t, and I'm not getting an error. Is there another key I should use?
2016-02-08T15:58:48Z Xach: warweasle: hmm, not sure. is your sbcl recent?
2016-02-08T15:58:56Z learning: stardiviner: are you talking about the :initial-value option?
2016-02-08T15:59:09Z Xach: stardiviner: it is any form that produces a value.
2016-02-08T15:59:22Z learning: that's the only thing i could find in the hyperspec
2016-02-08T15:59:31Z Xach: learning: no.
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2016-02-08T16:00:27Z stardiviner: Xach: learning I'm reading <<Practical Common Lisp>>, it said has a way to redefine constant
2016-02-08T16:01:03Z Xach: stardiviner: in some implementations that will produce an error.
2016-02-08T16:01:15Z Xach: stardiviner: but the syntax is as described. for example, (defconstant pi 3)
2016-02-08T16:01:19Z stardiviner: Here is the book said:
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2016-02-08T16:02:11Z stardiviner: redefine a constant by *reevaluating* a ~DEFCONSTANT~ with a different /initial-value-form/, what exactly happens after the redefinition isn’t defined.
2016-02-08T16:02:35Z White_Flame: "<doing x> isn't defined" means that's bad behavior
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2016-02-08T16:02:46Z stardiviner: xach it's about Common Lisp implementation?
2016-02-08T16:02:53Z White_Flame: in other words, if you call defconstant multiple times, things can be expected to break
2016-02-08T16:02:53Z antoszka: Or at least something you shouldn't portably rely on.
2016-02-08T16:02:59Z White_Flame: (with different values)
2016-02-08T16:03:06Z antoszka: stardiviner: Yes.
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2016-02-08T16:03:19Z stardiviner: I see. thanks guys.
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2016-02-08T16:03:58Z learning: (defconstant [variable-name] [initial-value-form])   (defconstant x 1)  (defconstant x 2)
2016-02-08T16:04:27Z White_Flame: specifically, if you do (defconstant +foo+ 3), and compile (defun my-add (x) (+ x +foo+)), the my-add function can have 3 compiled right into its source code. If you somehow change +foo+ to something else, that compiled code will never see it
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2016-02-08T16:05:15Z learning: stardiviner: the implementation means SBCL, CCL, or whatever. Common Lisp is a specefication, and then other programs (such as SBCL) implement that specification
2016-02-08T16:06:05Z stardiviner: White_Flame: learning I noticed SBCL raised debugger, I choosed 0 to continue to change the constant value. It can work.
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2016-02-08T16:06:24Z White_Flame: yes, but anything that already remembered that constant will be inconsistent with the new constant
2016-02-08T16:06:43Z White_Flame: so even though you changed the definition, older code will still only know the older value
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2016-02-08T16:07:12Z White_Flame: in certain cases like this, redefining constants, or modifying defmacros, it's best to restart the lisp image to load everything clean again
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2016-02-08T16:09:27Z warweasle: Xach: This is odd. It works without :verbose t
2016-02-08T16:10:43Z moore33: White_Flame: Or delete the package if restarting is unbearable.
2016-02-08T16:10:52Z stardiviner: White_Flame: I see. thanks for your tip.
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2016-02-08T16:11:25Z Xach: warweasle: does it fail with :verbose t?
2016-02-08T16:11:29Z warweasle: Xach: Yes
2016-02-08T16:11:47Z warweasle: Xach: I just updated sbcl.
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2016-02-08T16:11:53Z Xach: warweasle: that is to be expected - :verbose nil suppresses warnings, and warnings break the build
2016-02-08T16:12:40Z warweasle: Xach: I have a lot of warnings. Mostly from the cffi structs are deprecated.
2016-02-08T16:13:26Z Xach: warweasle: do you see the one in red in my report? that is the critical one
2016-02-08T16:13:31Z Xach: duplicate definition
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2016-02-08T16:14:45Z warweasle: Xach: That fixed it. Promoting.
2016-02-08T16:14:47Z loke``: Anyone know who is the maintainer of cxml?
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2016-02-08T16:16:03Z warweasle: Xach: Promoted. Thanks for the hint.
2016-02-08T16:16:14Z Xach: warweasle: works, thanks
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2016-02-08T16:33:47Z Xach: warweasle: what is kit.sdl2?
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2016-02-08T16:34:07Z warweasle: Xach: Is that still in there?
2016-02-08T16:34:11Z Xach: warweasle: yes
2016-02-08T16:34:20Z warweasle: Xach: The quicklisp version?
2016-02-08T16:34:34Z Xach: warweasle: yes
2016-02-08T16:34:38Z Xach: warweasle: and clinch-pango seems to depend on pango rather than cl-pango
2016-02-08T16:34:44Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-02-08/failure-report/clinch.html
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2016-02-08T16:35:52Z warweasle: Xach: I'll have to wait for tonight. Is there a way to NOT update clinch? That's the right version. I lost my last version in my merge to clinch-0.5.
2016-02-08T16:36:20Z Xach: warweasle: hmm, it's possible, yes.
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2016-02-08T16:37:03Z warweasle: Xach: Sorry to cause you more work. I might be able to find the proper version later from my quicklisp version.
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2016-02-08T16:38:03Z Xach: if i stored & shared good provenance info it would be easy :(
2016-02-08T16:38:08Z Xach: it's on my list of things to do
2016-02-08T16:38:38Z warweasle: Xach: OH, I can just check in that version as the quicklisp branch.
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2016-02-08T16:52:50Z axion: Xach: are you still updating lisptips?
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2016-02-08T16:57:38Z Xach: axion: sometimes.
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2016-02-08T17:15:56Z axion: just wondering. i miss reading that :)
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2016-02-08T17:18:47Z Xach: warweasle: is that what you're going to do?
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2016-02-08T17:21:04Z warweasle: Xach: I'll see what I can do with git.
2016-02-08T17:21:18Z Xach: ok
2016-02-08T17:21:25Z warweasle: Xach: Did I answer the correct question.
2016-02-08T17:21:46Z Xach: warweasle: I think so. Is that going to be tonight?
2016-02-08T17:22:02Z Xach: In other words, I wasn't sure if you had found a shortcut to try right away, or if you are still waiting until later to do it.
2016-02-08T17:22:14Z warweasle: Xach: I'll try...It depends on how something else goes.
2016-02-08T17:22:29Z warweasle: Xach: Sorry, I can't do it now.
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2016-02-08T17:26:13Z Xach: ok
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2016-02-08T17:31:09Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-08T17:31:49Z moore33: beach: Hi!
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2016-02-08T17:34:21Z beach: drmeister will be happy to know that I finally decided to bite the bullet and create a complete library for manipulating what I call "concrete syntax trees" or CSTs.  These are designators for Common Lisp expression but they also have additional information associated with them, and in particular source location.
2016-02-08T17:35:39Z beach: I was dragging my feet because in Cleavir, I already have a library for manipulating certain aspects of ordinary source code, and that work needs to be duplicated for CSTs.
2016-02-08T17:35:54Z jasom: oh, neat, how about reader-macros?
2016-02-08T17:36:02Z beach: Yes, that's part of it.
2016-02-08T17:36:14Z beach: I call it "intelligent macro expansion".
2016-02-08T17:36:32Z jasom: in particular, there is no good way currently to manipulate code with #+ and #- right now
2016-02-08T17:36:41Z beach: It attempts to find expressions in the expanded code that occur in the original expression.
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2016-02-08T17:36:59Z beach: Ah, intersting.
2016-02-08T17:37:02Z beach: interesting
2016-02-08T17:37:16Z beach: Oh, reader macros.  Sorry.
2016-02-08T17:37:18Z beach: Too tired.
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2016-02-08T17:37:58Z beach: For this particular library, I am not addressing the reader issue.
2016-02-08T17:38:38Z jasom: that makes sense for the use-case you and drmeister seem to have for it.  It was something I ran into when I did some work on buildapp
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2016-02-08T17:39:13Z beach: Well, what made me quit dragging my feet was that I also need this in Second Climacs for incremental parsing of Common Lisp code.
2016-02-08T17:39:43Z jasom: indeed, I'm excited about that.  I have some ugly hacks for doing proper indentation and highlighting of lisp code outside of emacs
2016-02-08T17:40:02Z beach: I am hoping to use CSTs for exactly that purpose.
2016-02-08T17:40:55Z jasom: I played around with getting an open-source IDE to play nicely with sbcl in an attempt to reduce "emacs fear" as an excuse for not learning lisp
2016-02-08T17:41:13Z beach: Like Eclipse or similar?
2016-02-08T17:41:33Z jasom: beach: yeah, geany in this case
2016-02-08T17:41:48Z beach: What language is it written in?
2016-02-08T17:41:54Z jasom: C
2016-02-08T17:41:57Z beach: Ah.
2016-02-08T17:42:08Z jasom: which is far less scary to me than java, to be honest.
2016-02-08T17:42:19Z beach: Heh.  I believe you.
2016-02-08T17:42:47Z jasom: though would you believe the editor widget has no hooks for indentation?  I had to have the plugin just look for every key being pressed until it saw an enter or return
2016-02-08T17:43:18Z beach: Wow.
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2016-02-08T17:45:07Z beach: About reader macros: Calls to READ are properly nested, of course.  By defining a Gray stream that saves the start and end position of each call to READ as well as the object that was returned by the call, I am counting on being able to reconstruct the CST from the expression read, often even inside objects read by reader macros.
2016-02-08T17:45:55Z jasom: http://i.imgur.com/CFusgEJ.png <-- there's a screenshot including highlighting, folding and was completely indented inside the ide
2016-02-08T17:45:55Z beach: It requires a modified reader, but then, I have one of those that I am willing to modify. :)
2016-02-08T17:46:34Z beach: Impressive!
2016-02-08T17:46:55Z jasom: Now I remember what I want CST for!
2016-02-08T17:47:13Z jasom: The project lets you do ctags style things, but it will run your generator on possibly incomplete code
2016-02-08T17:47:14Z beach: What color does something like CDR get in (let ((cdr 234)) ...)?
2016-02-08T17:47:32Z jasom: beach: almost certainly the same as in function call position
2016-02-08T17:47:44Z beach: Just messing with you.
2016-02-08T17:47:45Z jasom: I think all function symbols from clhs get that
2016-02-08T17:48:00Z beach: I am hoping to be able to do better.  At least ultimately.
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2016-02-08T17:48:05Z jasom: right
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2016-02-08T17:48:59Z jasom: exuberant ctags actually does have a lisp mode, but it knows nothing about packages it basically looks for ( *def.+ <name>
2016-02-08T17:49:30Z beach: Regexps.  Yes, of course.
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2016-02-08T17:49:54Z beach: Work so-so most of the time.
2016-02-08T17:50:18Z jasom: "sometimes better than nothing" is how I refer to it
2016-02-08T17:50:27Z beach: I like that! :)
2016-02-08T17:51:04Z beach: Dinner.  I'll check in briefly later.
2016-02-08T17:51:47Z jasom: Enjoy dinner! I want to add an action to lookup a symbol in the hyper-spec as well, as that is low-hangning-fruit since the plugin API lets you filter on syntax type, and there's already a syntax type for both macros and functions from the hyperspec
2016-02-08T17:52:15Z jasom: so having it appear in e.g. a right-click menu only if the symbol were in the hyperspec requires very little work
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2016-02-08T18:36:36Z beach: jasom: Sounds good.  Keep us informed about your progress!
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2016-02-08T18:57:39Z msmith: jdz: per my issue earlier.  I got it resolved by removing the function parse-uri in a certain package.  But it still doesn't make any sense as to why it was overriding that function
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2016-02-08T19:37:25Z jasom: msmith: functions are named by symbols.  when you use a package, it brings all of the exported symbols into the namespace for your package; this means that "yourpackage::parse-uri" reads in as the exact same symbol as "quri:parse-uri" so if you do (defun parse-uri ...) in your package, you will be redfining quri:parse-uri
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2016-02-08T19:42:35Z jasom: msmith: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306814 <-- is it obvious why loading this file will print ("foo")
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2016-02-08T19:48:04Z msmith: jasom: that is true.  but if you don't use the quri and use the quri namespace it should not override it.
2016-02-08T19:48:20Z msmith: and that is what was going on in my case
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2016-02-08T20:04:53Z jasom: msmith: It is possible you were accidentally using the quri package
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2016-02-08T20:05:35Z jasom: msmith: if it happens again, you can do something like (symbol-package 'whateverpackage::parse-uri) to see what the canonical package of the symbol is
2016-02-08T20:06:30Z jasom: I think, for example, if you recompile your defpackage with fewer packages used, it won't stop using the packages you had previously used (though it will signal a warning)
2016-02-08T20:06:36Z msmith: ok, I'll add that as a debugging step
2016-02-08T20:07:00Z jasom: s/recompile/re evaluate
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2016-02-08T20:07:47Z msmith: well, I completely stopped  the lisp instance and restarted  and it was still doing it
2016-02-08T20:08:09Z msmith: I made several pastes detailing the steps this morning
2016-02-08T20:08:46Z jasom: huh
2016-02-08T20:09:17Z msmith: what was unclear?
2016-02-08T20:10:46Z jasom: msmith: I don't see your defpackage form anywhere in those pastes
2016-02-08T20:11:32Z jasom: I see part of the .asd file, but that should have no effect on the packages
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2016-02-08T20:13:21Z jasom: msmith: can you paste the defpackage form(s) that are part of "myproject"?
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2016-02-08T20:15:40Z msmith: it has since changed, but it was throwing the error with a :use quri clause and without it
2016-02-08T20:15:54Z msmith: so currently it does not have a use clause
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2016-02-08T20:17:14Z jasom: msmith: well if you're willing to send me a tar of your entire project, I can take a look...
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2016-02-08T20:19:22Z msmith: thx, but I have it working now.
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2016-02-08T20:55:37Z didi: Can I `setf' using a symbol of a function? e.g instead of (setf (foo obj) 42) I do something like (let ((sym 'foo)) (setf (funcall sym obj) 42)).
2016-02-08T20:56:29Z Bicyclidine: no. you can, however, funcall setf functions.
2016-02-08T20:56:49Z didi: Bicyclidine: Hum. Sounds interesting.
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2016-02-08T20:57:36Z Bicyclidine: like, if you have an accessor "foo", and the accessor is defined with functions, you can do (let ((sym 'foo)) (funcall (fdefinition (list 'setf sym)) 42 obj)).
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2016-02-08T20:58:44Z jasom: though remember that fdefinition does not support flet and friends
2016-02-08T20:59:00Z |3b|: and not everything you can SETF has a setf function
2016-02-08T20:59:05Z Bicyclidine: the difficulty with (setf (funcall sym ...) ...) of course is that setf is a macro, it has to expand into something without knowing what sym is
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2016-02-08T20:59:40Z didi: My accessor is from (defstruct (bar (:type vector)) ...) so it apparently has one.
2016-02-08T20:59:50Z didi: Bicyclidine: Cool. This solved it. Thank you.
2016-02-08T21:00:02Z Bicyclidine: eh, i'm not sure that's actually defined so...
2016-02-08T21:00:04Z |3b|: so worst case you have to compile or eval something (either to evaluate the setf expansion directly, or to build a function that contains (setf (foo ...)...)
2016-02-08T21:00:28Z |3b|: yeah, i don't think it is specified if defstruct makes setf functions or not
2016-02-08T21:00:37Z didi: Bluh...
2016-02-08T21:00:38Z Bicyclidine: yeah, "When this option is false or unsupplied, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to write the slot is implemented by a setf function or a setf expander.", bummer
2016-02-08T21:00:57Z didi: Bah, SBCL-only ftw.
2016-02-08T21:01:07Z |3b|: you could always just put setter functions in a hash indexed by the symbol though
2016-02-08T21:01:17Z jasom: Bicyclidine: that's only implementation-dependent, and gives you a choice, so way b etter than undefined
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2016-02-08T21:01:35Z learning: I'm attempting to define a macro that prints the given form and it's output, then returns that output. I'm using PCL's with-gensym, but I'm getting style errors because I think the gensym symbol is being returned instead of its value.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/306820
2016-02-08T21:01:50Z learning: Is there a way to return the value of the gensym instead of the gensym itself?
2016-02-08T21:02:15Z Bicyclidine: with-gensyms doesn't put any bindings in the expansion
2016-02-08T21:02:25Z Bicyclidine: you should try macroexpanding a print-form call, you'll see what i mean
2016-02-08T21:03:34Z |3b|: yeah, it isn't returning that is the problem
2016-02-08T21:03:53Z |3b|: SETF doesn't create variables
2016-02-08T21:04:44Z jasom: learning: and then after that, use once-only which does what you are trying to do
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2016-02-08T21:06:40Z learning:   (print (macroexpand-1 (print-form (incf x)))))  =>  1
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2016-02-08T21:08:29Z Bicyclidine: ...no, the actual form, not what the form prints when executed
2016-02-08T21:08:40Z Bicyclidine: it starts (PROGN ...)
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2016-02-08T21:16:27Z learning: jasom: when i use once only it turns form into a symbol so that i can't print it's form, it just prints #:G0
2016-02-08T21:16:47Z jasom: learning: you can do (one-only ((form-value form)) ...)
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2016-02-08T21:19:40Z learning: I'm getting a "form-value is undefined" error, and an unbound error when I switch the order of the args.
2016-02-08T21:19:45Z Bicyclidine: (once-only ((form-value form)) `(progn (format t ',format-string ',form ,form-value) ,form-value)), i think.
2016-02-08T21:20:29Z learning: yeah, that's what i have (i think)
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2016-02-08T21:21:35Z learning: except i did ',form-value instead of ',form
2016-02-08T21:21:48Z learning: but changing it to what you have still throws the same error
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2016-02-08T21:23:33Z Bicyclidine: It works for me. What once-only are you using?
2016-02-08T21:24:02Z learning: i'll make a new paste
2016-02-08T21:24:12Z Bicyclidine: you can annotate the old one.
2016-02-08T21:25:51Z learning: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306820#1
2016-02-08T21:26:21Z learning: I thought that I just copy pasted that from PCL
2016-02-08T21:26:31Z Bicyclidine: why on earth did you put the macroexpand-1 call in the macro definition?
2016-02-08T21:26:57Z learning: didn't you say to put it there?
2016-02-08T21:27:08Z learning: but taking it out still yields the same error
2016-02-08T21:27:14Z Bicyclidine: No, I meant for you to look out how print-form itself worked, silly.
2016-02-08T21:27:19Z Bicyclidine: But yes, it's not relevant, just confusing.
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2016-02-08T21:28:10Z learning: i dont understand. where did you mean for me to put the macroexpand-1?
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2016-02-08T21:28:29Z jasom: learning: he meant for you to do (macroexpand '(print-form (incf x)))
2016-02-08T21:28:59Z learning: oh i needed to quote the form, ok. thank you.
2016-02-08T21:29:05Z Bicyclidine: the actual problem is that PCL's once-only doesn't allow the different name thing.
2016-02-08T21:29:17Z jasom: oh, alexandria's once-only *does* allow this
2016-02-08T21:29:26Z Bicyclidine: yes, and that's what i used, which is why it worked.
2016-02-08T21:29:34Z jasom: me too
2016-02-08T21:29:47Z Bicyclidine: PCL's tries to do (let (((form-value form) #:gensym)) ...), very nice.
2016-02-08T21:30:08Z Bicyclidine: learning needs both the value and the form, so PCL's won't work.
2016-02-08T21:30:29Z jasom: yup
2016-02-08T21:31:15Z jasom: learning: (with-gensyms (form-value) `(let ((form-value ,form)) (format ...))) is about what you want
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2016-02-08T21:38:30Z learning: that prints the symbol instead of the form.  i'm trying to get alexandria's version working
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2016-02-08T21:40:31Z Bicyclidine: remember to use ',form and not ',form-value.
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2016-02-08T21:43:33Z jasom: learning: http://paste.lisp.org/+6KQS/2
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2016-02-08T21:45:33Z learning: thank you, i feel like an idiot. i thought that's what i had when you said to try let.
2016-02-08T21:46:05Z phoe_krk: learning: don't feel like an idiot
2016-02-08T21:46:07Z jasom: learning: you probably had a comma in the wrong spot or flipped form-value and form or some such other mistake
2016-02-08T21:46:08Z phoe_krk: you're just learning :D
2016-02-08T21:46:14Z learning: thank you guys for taking the time to help me with this
2016-02-08T21:46:46Z phoe_krk: TBH I think all of us around here are
2016-02-08T21:47:14Z jasom: I tried learning for a while, then decided to stop.  Now I just tell people that they are wrong ;)
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2016-02-08T21:48:16Z Bicyclidine: so much easier
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2016-02-08T21:48:38Z jasom: yeah, if everyone around me is wrong, then I can't learn anything from them, so I don't have to try to learn new things :)
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2016-02-08T22:12:19Z csd_: ok i have a really weird question
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2016-02-08T22:13:53Z csd_: last year i saw gerald sussman give a talk in nyc, and at the talk there was an older gentleman with long grey hair and a long grey beard and he carried a long thick wooden walking stick. he and sussman were talking and they seemed to be colleagues. does that description sound like anyone in particular the lisp community
2016-02-08T22:15:03Z pjb: Could have been Minsky.
2016-02-08T22:15:15Z pjb: csd_: check: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html
2016-02-08T22:16:07Z csd_: nah that's not him.. i ask because i saw him again this past weekend at a functional programming conference
2016-02-08T22:16:09Z pjb: csd_: but Minsky was bald of late.
2016-02-08T22:16:48Z White_Flame: old & greybeard?  sounds like half the Lisp community!
2016-02-08T22:17:05Z White_Flame: :)
2016-02-08T22:17:30Z csd_: yeah i realized as i was typing that :)
2016-02-08T22:18:14Z csd_: he also was very large in stature
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2016-02-08T22:29:37Z pjb: Perhaps RMS?
2016-02-08T22:29:56Z dwchandler: csd_: a minor point to consider...conferences are also for networking, so introduce yourself :)
2016-02-08T22:29:58Z pjb: But he's not that old, and not completely greyed out.
2016-02-08T22:30:31Z csd_: yeah not stallman
2016-02-08T22:30:36Z pjb: dwchandler: that's not easy, famous people are intimidating (*^.^*)
2016-02-08T22:31:33Z dwchandler: I know. And they also often attract groups of people so it can be hard to squeeze in.
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2016-02-08T22:33:34Z csd_: i think next conference i will try talking to someone :-/
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2016-02-08T22:37:05Z csd_: gotta run, thanks for the help
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2016-02-08T22:48:57Z phoe_krk: "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." ― Edmund Burke
2016-02-08T22:49:34Z phoe_krk: which is what I thought when I realized that both XML and JSON are much, much uglier variants of S-expressions
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2016-02-08T22:57:09Z didi: Only 30% of CPU time. Dang my HDD is slow.
2016-02-08T22:57:25Z axion: oGMo: you around?
2016-02-08T22:58:50Z didi: But in other news, turns out that (defstruct ... (... (:type vector) ...)) use much less memory than alists.
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2016-02-08T23:04:29Z shka: that is not any surprise
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2016-02-08T23:08:08Z didi`: And that's why shka is not allowed to attend magic shows anymore.
2016-02-08T23:08:22Z shka: magic?
2016-02-08T23:08:25Z shka: what kind of magic
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2016-02-08T23:08:50Z didi`: *shh* Everybody, be quiet. shka can smell wonder.
2016-02-08T23:09:09Z shka: magic of the fact that linked lists require pointers
2016-02-08T23:09:22Z shka: and pointers take space
2016-02-08T23:09:41Z shka: especially 64 bit pointers
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2016-02-08T23:10:14Z shka: linked list in 64 bit system can suprisingly large
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2016-02-08T23:10:49Z shka: and vectors?
2016-02-08T23:11:02Z shka: vectors are not a linked data structure
2016-02-08T23:11:45Z shka: no pointers here
2016-02-08T23:12:57Z shka: anyway
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2016-02-08T23:14:22Z shka: good night
2016-02-08T23:14:52Z didi`: shka: Good night to you too.
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2016-02-08T23:46:03Z dwchandler: phoe_krk: both html and xml are the children of sgml, descended from ibm's gml developed in the 60's. so this horror goes way back, but still could have learned from s-expressions and didn't
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2016-02-08T23:47:42Z dwchandler: the only good thing about that is the internet idiom of using (only) a closing tag to acknowledge the nature of the preceding text </rant>
2016-02-08T23:49:11Z phoe_krk: ...so you can be incorrect and mark the end without marking the beginning
2016-02-08T23:49:13Z phoe_krk: +1
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2016-02-08T23:52:04Z dwchandler: exactly :)
2016-02-08T23:52:22Z dwchandler: It doesn't work so well with sexprs)
2016-02-08T23:52:32Z phoe_krk: yes, since it doesn't gibe you a type of what you're ending.
2016-02-08T23:52:59Z phoe_krk: unrelated: anyone got any idea how to write a sense-making Lisp parser in Haskell without a mutable stack?
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2016-02-08T23:54:17Z Bike: just have your list reader make new lists...? or what do you mean exactly
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2016-02-08T23:55:20Z phoe_krk: Bike: I need something that will turn a list of tokens into a lispy structure. I'm having trouble counting parens: I can't force a sub-function to just remove elements from a list until it meets a closing paren, because the original function can't see the mutation in the list.
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2016-02-08T23:55:50Z phoe_krk: I'm not thinking lambda-enough to grasp the concept.
2016-02-08T23:56:05Z phoe_krk: ...wait a second
2016-02-08T23:56:05Z Bike: ...remove? what? what kind of parser is this? You know how you'd writer a reader in lisp, right?
2016-02-08T23:56:22Z phoe_krk: I think I can actually grasp that
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2016-02-08T23:56:58Z Bike: Oh, a left parenthesis. Better call the reader recursively until I see a right parenthesis. Oh, a recursive call found a left parenthesis. It had better call the reader recursively again until it finds a right parenthesis, and then return a list.
2016-02-08T23:57:29Z Galdemore: hey guys im new to lisp, pretty new to programming but have been growing towards cpp
2016-02-08T23:57:51Z phoe_krk: Bike, what about the original function, then? It still has the original list and it doesn't know where to continue.
2016-02-08T23:57:57Z Galdemore: im sure you see this all the time but: I saw some lisp and it gave me the feelies
2016-02-08T23:58:23Z Galdemore: im just scared learning it will be a detour in my experience
2016-02-08T23:58:37Z Bike: nah, you can walk and chew gum at the same time. i believe in you.
2016-02-08T23:58:45Z phoe_krk: Galdemore: no, why?
2016-02-08T23:59:06Z Galdemore: i just feel like c is so different
2016-02-08T23:59:29Z Galdemore: that it will be more like juggling knowledge than smooth learning
2016-02-08T23:59:38Z phoe_krk: Bike: Let's assume a (list ((atom 1 thing 2)) (something 3)) example. The original function sees a left paren, so it calls a reader, finds "list", then calls a reader, which calls a reader, finds "atom" 1 "thing" 2, returns, so the former reader returns, BUT the original function doesn't know how far to go on its original list.
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2016-02-09T00:00:06Z Bike: Oh. I see what you mean.
2016-02-09T00:00:09Z phoe_krk: Precisely.
2016-02-09T00:00:25Z Bike: Have the recursive calls return the unparsed list as a second value/as part of a Haskell structure.
2016-02-09T00:00:35Z phoe_krk: Return the unparsed list?
2016-02-09T00:00:44Z phoe_krk: As in the remainder?
2016-02-09T00:00:58Z dwchandler: yes
2016-02-09T00:01:26Z phoe_krk: This is not trivial.
2016-02-09T00:02:04Z Bike: too bad? I mean, i think this is a pretty usual solution.
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2016-02-09T00:02:39Z phoe_krk: Well, yes/
2016-02-09T00:02:41Z Bike: Anyway, what you really should do is use a parser generator. The grammar "SEXP := ATOM | '(' SEXP+ ')'" is pretty easy to do...
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2016-02-09T00:02:55Z phoe_krk: Bike: I need to write it myself, uni assignment.
2016-02-09T00:03:02Z Bike: Wow, that's stupid.
2016-02-09T00:03:04Z phoe_krk: I'd just Parsec it if I could.
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2016-02-09T00:03:39Z Bike: A wonderful thing about this channel is being reminded why I majored in something else
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2016-02-09T00:04:17Z dwchandler: phoe_krk: you can't parsec it because why?
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2016-02-09T00:04:31Z phoe_krk: dwchandler: I need to write the parser myself
2016-02-09T00:04:53Z phoe_krk: which is a part of the assignment.
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2016-02-09T00:05:07Z dwchandler: Ah, cool. I would say it's not cheating to read the parsec code. As I remember it's actually pretty darned nice.
2016-02-09T00:05:07Z Bike: Well, anyway, so you're doing something like (defun read (tokens) (case (first token) (atom (values (parse-atom (first token)) (rest tokens))) etc etc
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2016-02-09T00:05:23Z Bike: for the list you'd just call the reader repeatedly and so on... shouldn't be too annoying
2016-02-09T00:05:26Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-02-09T00:05:38Z phoe_krk: Fsck it, I'll first write this in Lisp and then translate it to Haskell.
2016-02-09T00:06:00Z phoe_krk: So I can understand what I'm actually doing.
2016-02-09T00:06:05Z dwchandler: Hmm. I would not personally do that, but it's your task
2016-02-09T00:06:12Z Bike: and yes, i know you don't have values, but that just means you define an ADT
2016-02-09T00:06:25Z TMA: phoe_krk: make the parser a monad
2016-02-09T00:06:43Z Bike: parser combinators would be good too
2016-02-09T00:06:45Z phoe_krk: ...so I can just output into it?
2016-02-09T00:06:55Z Bike: output into what
2016-02-09T00:06:58Z phoe_krk: A monad.
2016-02-09T00:07:08Z phoe_krk: Hum.
2016-02-09T00:07:29Z Bike: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/monparsing.pdf or something.
2016-02-09T00:07:51Z TMA: phoe_krk: you need state to pass around ... monad is the way to get state without mutability
2016-02-09T00:08:03Z phoe_krk: Yes, I see.
2016-02-09T00:09:20Z phoe_krk: ... I don't need a monad
2016-02-09T00:09:53Z phoe_krk: I can just return a pair of values and have the second value being an integer, how many elements to drop in the original list because how many were parsed in the recursive call
2016-02-09T00:10:40Z TMA: or you can just transform it to a continuation passing style
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2016-02-09T00:11:15Z Bike: or you could write a unix system V emulator and run yacc in it!
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2016-02-09T00:24:04Z dwchandler: phoe_krk: why not return the remaining, unconsumed part of the list? it should be efficient
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2016-02-09T00:30:20Z phoe_krk: dwchandler: huh
2016-02-09T00:30:22Z phoe_krk: I'll try that
2016-02-09T00:33:51Z dwchandler: I thought that's what Bike was suggesting above. I'll be interested to see how it works out for you. Seems like it should work fine.
2016-02-09T00:34:01Z Bike: it was.
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2016-02-09T00:57:49Z fewdea: Hi, where do I start learning about lisp's introspection capabilities? for instance, can I call a function to see what's available in a given namespace/package?
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2016-02-09T01:02:28Z Bike: fewdea: i don't know a general introduction, but the clhs section on packages would have that information in particular.
2016-02-09T01:02:43Z White_Flame: Is there a lease-based distributed job board, sort of like JINI, in CL anywhere?
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2016-02-09T01:14:30Z White_Flame: alternatively, does somebody have experience with GBBopen?  While the blurbs talk about distributed systems, the actual docs don't seem to make that clear at all
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2016-02-09T01:53:41Z learning: Does anyone know if (let ...) existed in Lisp 1.5? I'm looking at the function index for the paper, but it's not there. Maybe it was named something else?
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2016-02-09T01:56:31Z learning: i guess that's what prog is
2016-02-09T01:58:44Z learning: is let a simpler more explicit form of prog that doesn't allow tags and return?
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2016-02-09T02:12:38Z Bike: yeah.
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2016-02-09T02:17:01Z Bike: you can also interconvert (let ((var value) ...) ...body...) and ((lambda (var ...) ...body...) value ...), though i don't actually remember how well that would work in old lisps.
2016-02-09T02:20:06Z learning: ((lambda () 1)) => 1?
2016-02-09T02:20:20Z learning: nvm just gonna run it lel
2016-02-09T02:20:52Z learning: that's cool
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2016-02-09T02:21:25Z learning: i didn't know that encapsulating a lambda expression calls it
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2016-02-09T02:22:40Z learning: so let expression could be written as a lambda expression with &optional variables
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2016-02-09T02:26:48Z Bike: uhhuh. schemes sometimes make let a macro expanding into a lambda form.
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2016-02-09T02:44:20Z emaczen: How can I look at the backtrace of a call to change-class?
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2016-02-09T03:01:28Z phoe_krk: Bike, dwchandler: oaeugfosjgkjkjdflgsjljgljhdklgjldjghdslhgsdf
2016-02-09T03:01:31Z phoe_krk: I think I got it.
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2016-02-09T03:03:43Z phoe_krk: http://lpaste.net/151924
2016-02-09T03:03:56Z phoe_krk: try loading this
2016-02-09T03:04:06Z phoe_krk: and _execute "(cons (quote a) (cons (quote b) ()))"_
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2016-02-09T03:05:40Z phoe_krk: execute "(cons (quote (a b c)) (cons (quote b) ()))"
2016-02-09T03:05:42Z phoe_krk: this also seems to work.
2016-02-09T03:06:01Z phoe_krk: holy hell I'mma do a paper on the effect of writing in Haskell upon sanity
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2016-02-09T03:10:18Z phoe_krk: Haskell is a language that is so awesome that it has to utilize instances of monoids from the category of endofunctors to print a simple *Hello world!* on the screen.
2016-02-09T03:10:52Z Bike: is ok, you need to know how to make cylinders of purified silicon to even make a screen in the first place
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2016-02-09T04:08:13Z emaczen: I've modified some slots in an instance, and  I want to call the code inside my after method for initialize-instance -- what's the recommended/clean way to do this?
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2016-02-09T04:35:59Z phoe_krk: Bike, dwchandler: http://lpaste.net/151924
2016-02-09T04:36:07Z phoe_krk: Enough for today. Working enough, it is.
2016-02-09T04:36:15Z Bike: that's good
2016-02-09T04:36:44Z phoe_krk: And I understood Lisp along the way.
2016-02-09T04:37:32Z loke``: re
2016-02-09T04:37:35Z loke``: oops
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2016-02-09T08:24:34Z otwieracz: Hey!
2016-02-09T08:24:47Z otwieracz: I am playing with parenscript but there's one thiung I do not understand:
2016-02-09T08:24:55Z otwieracz: PS> (ps (create "foo" "bar"))
2016-02-09T08:24:56Z otwieracz: "({ 'foo' : 'bar' });"
2016-02-09T08:25:10Z otwieracz: Why is final object surrounded with { } ?
2016-02-09T08:25:38Z otwieracz: Erm… surrdouned with ( )
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2016-02-09T08:27:08Z ralt: otwieracz: technically, it doesn't matter for javascript
2016-02-09T08:27:28Z ralt: but {'foo': 'bar'} itself isn't a js object, it's just a block with a label
2016-02-09T08:27:42Z ralt: you need to surround it with () to have an object in js
2016-02-09T08:27:51Z ralt: try it out in your browser console
2016-02-09T08:28:30Z otwieracz: Well – I wanted to write JSON with parenscript.
2016-02-09T08:29:05Z otwieracz: To do stuff like: curl -XPOST blahblah -d "{ 'aggs' : { 'ip_count' : { 'cardinality' : { 'field' : 'IP-ADDRESS' } } } }"
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2016-02-09T08:29:59Z otwieracz: And here those () are not acceptable.
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2016-02-09T08:34:05Z ralt: otwieracz: parenscript generates valid javascript, not valid JSON. {'foo': 'bar'} is *not* an object in javascript, it's a block, with a label https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/label
2016-02-09T08:34:40Z otwieracz: OK.
2016-02-09T08:34:42Z ralt: otwieracz: I suggest using a JSON library instead, such as jsown.
2016-02-09T08:35:17Z ralt: by the way, using single quotes is certainly not valid JSON
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2016-02-09T08:36:59Z otwieracz: OK, I will.
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2016-02-09T09:57:04Z dreamaddict: it looks like sdl2-mixer can only play one piece of music at a time, but multiple sound effects if they are .wav files
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2016-02-09T10:00:24Z dreamaddict: that seems strange
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2016-02-09T10:35:46Z Cymew: Huh? How about multiple pieces of effects if they are not wav?
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2016-02-09T10:57:47Z dreamaddict: doesn't appear to have a routine for playing a non-wav file with the same part of the mixer as wav-files
2016-02-09T10:58:01Z dreamaddict: the music part is separate, one track, one volume control
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2016-02-09T11:27:59Z Cymew: So itäs basicaly only mixing one sound file type at a time?
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2016-02-09T11:31:29Z dreamaddict: if I use sdl2-mixer:play-music to play a song, and then do it again to play another song, only the most recently played song is played...the music routines only play one .mp3/.ogg/.flac file at a time
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2016-02-09T11:32:21Z dreamaddict: there is no option to specify which mixing channel to play the music in, nor does there seem to be a way to play a .mp3 file in the multi-channel "sound effect" player (which will play .wav files)
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2016-02-09T11:48:41Z Shinmera: Yeah, SDL has these limitations.
2016-02-09T11:48:43Z Cymew: Huh. Do sound kind of limiting. Maybe a design gaol, though.
2016-02-09T11:48:54Z Cymew: s/gaol/goal/
2016-02-09T11:48:54Z Shinmera: SDL's mixer is only intended to be super simple though.
2016-02-09T11:49:01Z Shinmera: You should use a proper sound system library if you want more.
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2016-02-09T11:49:31Z Shinmera: At this point I once again wish there was a bindings library for gstreamer.
2016-02-09T11:50:15Z dreamaddict: I'd love to use a proper sound system library, if I could find one
2016-02-09T11:50:19Z Cymew: I guess SDL should be enough to create a game, since that's what it has been used for.
2016-02-09T11:50:42Z Cymew: Might be lacking a bit for a full sound app, though.
2016-02-09T11:50:56Z Shinmera: You can do sound stuff with Qt & Phonon
2016-02-09T11:51:11Z Shinmera: but that means pulling in Qt, so unless you're already on that boat from the get-go, not the best idea.
2016-02-09T11:51:33Z Cymew: Linux sound (which I guess this is) is somewhat of a murky place to be...
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2016-02-09T11:52:11Z Shinmera: If you're making a game you'd probably want it to be cross-platform.
2016-02-09T11:52:22Z dreamaddict: well it's not a game exactly
2016-02-09T11:52:46Z dreamaddict: right now I just need to make a simple thing that plays two mp3s simultaneously, with a crossfader to go between each one
2016-02-09T11:53:14Z dreamaddict: so, two songs playing, each one with controllable volume...that's about all that is really needed for sound, but it seems to be really hard to find in Lisp libraries
2016-02-09T11:53:23Z Shinmera: Qtools has an example music player, but again, Qt might very well be overkill.
2016-02-09T11:53:55Z Cymew: Sounds like that it's probably just as limited in C, if that's a SDL limit.
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2016-02-09T11:54:17Z dreamaddict: well...the SDL mixer can play multiple sound effects and control the volumes of each one
2016-02-09T11:54:32Z dreamaddict: with channels...but for music, there is only one channel, which seems like a design issue
2016-02-09T11:54:48Z Cymew: So, you only need to convert your two songs to wav, and treat them as "effects" :)
2016-02-09T11:54:55Z dreamaddict: yeah I guess so
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2016-02-09T11:55:09Z dreamaddict: since this is a "mock up", it doesn't need to actually work right
2016-02-09T11:55:26Z dreamaddict: I did come on here because I was curious why it would be set up like it is
2016-02-09T11:55:32Z Shinmera: Now go yack-shaving and implement a streaming mp3->wav converter :V
2016-02-09T11:55:56Z dreamaddict: right :P
2016-02-09T11:56:12Z Cymew: Go, go, go! ;)
2016-02-09T11:56:39Z dreamaddict: the lib doesn't even use a stream object for the files, I'm better off in this case just converting the mp3 files to wavs first
2016-02-09T11:57:05Z dreamaddict: your comical suggestion is the first thing I came up with when I saw SDL-mixer behaving like this though
2016-02-09T11:57:23Z Cymew: I don't think I've ever done any music programming since the C64...
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2016-02-09T11:58:10Z Shinmera: Maybe some years in the future when I finally have more time for new libraries, I'll go ahead and implement gstreamer bindings, because that's something I really, really do want.
2016-02-09T11:58:29Z Shinmera: In the meantime, I'd be even happier to hear someone else picking up that dish though.
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2016-02-09T11:59:23Z Cymew: But doing wrapper libs is "just" grovelling some header files and then running cffi, right?
2016-02-09T11:59:31Z Cymew hides under the table
2016-02-09T11:59:51Z Shinmera: Ah, I wish life was as easy as that.
2016-02-09T12:00:07Z Cymew: :)
2016-02-09T12:00:15Z Shinmera is reminded of another wrapper library he only ever half-finished https://github.com/Shinmera/legit
2016-02-09T12:01:48Z Cymew: I will admit I took a quick look at that "easy" procedure when I first found a wrapper lib missing, and I gave up really quickly.
2016-02-09T12:02:32Z Shinmera: Well the worst thing about the easy path is that then you just have to do things in a C-like way, which is pretty jarring. The work intensive stuff is making it lispy and easy to use.
2016-02-09T12:02:54Z Shinmera: And that's, unfortunately, not automatable as far as I'm aware.
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2016-02-09T12:03:56Z Cymew: Probably not. My head started hurting when I started to look at the C data types u_int_32 and god knows what they were called. I called it quits then.
2016-02-09T12:05:38Z Shinmera: Speaking of fun wrapper stuff, I might have broken qt-libs for some platforms. I haven't had the energy to test it yet, but it's probably too late now anyway if Xach did manage to go through with his QL release plans yesterday.
2016-02-09T12:06:17Z Shinmera: At least it should, in theory, now properly manage the plugins libraries (for which the directory structure has to be preserved because Qt !!FUN!!)
2016-02-09T12:06:32Z Cymew: Great
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2016-02-09T12:11:13Z dreamaddict: oh wow, it turns out that mpg123 doesn't make wav files that are playable with sdl2-mixer
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2016-02-09T12:11:21Z dreamaddict: this sound situation for Lisp is sad, sad, sad
2016-02-09T12:11:36Z Shinmera: Well, sdl2 isn't really a lisp thing.
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2016-02-09T12:11:55Z Cymew: Yeah, it's just linux and sound, not lisp.
2016-02-09T12:11:58Z dreamaddict: there doesn't seem to be a lisp thing when it comes to sound
2016-02-09T12:12:12Z dreamaddict: then linux is horrible...someone is horrible somewhere
2016-02-09T12:12:32Z Cymew: right
2016-02-09T12:12:33Z Shinmera: There's several lisp sound projects actually
2016-02-09T12:12:41Z Shinmera: I'm pretty sure those have a way to play stuff integrated.
2016-02-09T12:12:51Z DyslxcBnglrd240: linux has terribad sound and always has
2016-02-09T12:12:58Z Shinmera: dreamaddict: I think you'll find that almost everything is horrible almost everywhere.
2016-02-09T12:13:15Z dreamaddict: Shinmera:  depends on how much I want to get done with it I guess
2016-02-09T12:13:33Z DyslxcBnglrd240: dreamaddict:  Lennart Poeterring is the man to blame for your problems
2016-02-09T12:13:54Z Cymew: YEah, let's join in and blame someone!
2016-02-09T12:14:17Z dreamaddict: well so far mixalot and sdl2 seem to have a hard time with a) playing an mp3 b) controlling its volume and c) doing that twice at the same time
2016-02-09T12:14:37Z Shinmera actually likes Pulse
2016-02-09T12:15:42Z Cymew: I uses Jack and a specialized linux distro for music and sound, but I stay away from programming it.
2016-02-09T12:16:27Z Shinmera: Pulse is really nice for me because I can do realtively complex routing really easily, which is useful for streaming and stuff like that.
2016-02-09T12:16:56Z Cymew: I like to blame Lennart for anyway, just on principle.
2016-02-09T12:17:02Z Shinmera: dreamaddict: there's openal bindings, so you could try decoding mp3 + feeding it to OpenAL
2016-02-09T12:17:09Z Cymew: Well, "anything" at least.
2016-02-09T12:17:44Z Shinmera: dreamaddict: Otherwise, as I said, Qt might be an option https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/examples/melody/melody.lisp
2016-02-09T12:18:03Z dreamaddict: I'll try openal probably
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2016-02-09T12:29:27Z xantoz: I use pulse on top of jack
2016-02-09T12:29:51Z xantoz: I prefer doing my routing in Jack, but pulse is a very useful shim layer for many apps
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2016-02-09T13:13:29Z sjl: how can I get prove to tell me what line/test failed in the report?
2016-02-09T13:13:51Z sjl: right now it just says "1 is expected to be 0" which is accurate, but doesn't help me find the failing test...
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2016-02-09T13:51:43Z Shinmera: Is there a portable way to see if a type of a certain name exists?
2016-02-09T13:52:00Z _death: no
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2016-02-09T13:53:09Z Shinmera: Even with a wrapper library of sorts?
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2016-02-09T13:59:59Z jackdaniel: hrm, what about (typep 'whatever 'namexyz) ; shouldn't it signal a conditions that there is no such a type everywhere?
2016-02-09T14:00:51Z splittist: The consequences are undefined if the type-specifier is not a type specifier.
2016-02-09T14:01:18Z jackdaniel: oh, OK
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2016-02-09T15:06:58Z warweasle: Xach_: I've updated clinch - branch quicklisp. It should work now.
2016-02-09T15:07:58Z Baggers: Shinmera: documentation-utils looks nice, looking forward to seeing that in quicklisp :)
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2016-02-09T15:09:55Z Shinmera: Baggers: I've been using a much slimmed down version of the check and set macros all over my libraries for a while now and only took the time now to formalise and generalise it into a library.
2016-02-09T15:10:04Z Shinmera: Now I can finally get rid of all that duplication.
2016-02-09T15:10:45Z antoszka got his new messenger bag: https://goo.gl/photos/MydocYppecXUa98H9 :)
2016-02-09T15:11:42Z Shinmera: antoszka: neat
2016-02-09T15:13:12Z Shinmera: Baggers: For some reason I remember there being something I promised to tell you about once I got done with it, but now I can't remember what it would have been for the life of me. Do you know?
2016-02-09T15:13:39Z Baggers: Shinmera: hehe I cant remember either
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2016-02-09T15:47:21Z jfe: hi all.
2016-02-09T15:47:32Z blub: hi jfe
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2016-02-09T15:51:11Z kenanb: can a function multiple-value-bind one of its parameter arguments, or is value already lost when bound to parameter
2016-02-09T15:51:11Z minion: kenanb, memo from pjb: now I understand why mathematicians named it "string theory" :-)
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2016-02-09T15:53:09Z Shinmera: kenanb: only the first value of an argument is passed to the function.
2016-02-09T15:53:20Z Th30n: What's recommended these days for GUI apps? Qt, Gtk, something else for Common Lisp?
2016-02-09T15:53:29Z Shinmera: Qtools
2016-02-09T15:53:35Z Shinmera: Or the web.
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2016-02-09T15:56:35Z kenanb: Th30n: actually, you might also choose to use CommonQt directly, I personally like the lispy api Qtools provides on top of CommonQt but lispy bindings sometimes make it harder for me to go between qt documentation and lisp code
2016-02-09T15:57:23Z Shinmera: ? If anything Qtools make things look more like the example code. CommonQt is a mess to use directly.
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2016-02-09T15:57:57Z Th30n: How're the docs of Qtools?
2016-02-09T15:58:10Z Shinmera: See for yourself. http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/
2016-02-09T15:58:34Z Shinmera notices that travis is still fucking up for no reason
2016-02-09T16:00:00Z moore33: kenanb: You can use multiple-value-call to pass values to a function.
2016-02-09T16:00:24Z Shinmera: moore33: That's not what he's asking about though.
2016-02-09T16:00:45Z moore33: kenanb: I understand that.
2016-02-09T16:01:04Z moore33: uh, Shinmera... :)
2016-02-09T16:01:20Z moore33: Just providing an alternative to the impossible thing he wants to do.
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2016-02-09T16:01:44Z Shinmera: probably better to use multiple-value-list and pass that in the place where you need the multiple values.
2016-02-09T16:02:10Z Shinmera: or separate them out with m-v-b, etc.
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2016-02-09T16:02:16Z White_Flame: and if it's the last "parameter", you can use APPLY to fan out those values over parameters
2016-02-09T16:02:39Z jdz: White_Flame: are you sure?
2016-02-09T16:02:53Z kenanb: well, I write both caller and callee functions so I'll just stick to using lists without mixing multiple values, it is not essential, I was just thinking it might fit better, but no, it doesn't
2016-02-09T16:03:03Z White_Flame: jdz: through mulitple-value-list, going off Shinmera's suggestion
2016-02-09T16:03:05Z jdz: well, only in combination with multiple-value-list
2016-02-09T16:03:06Z kenanb: White_Flame: you cant
2016-02-09T16:03:13Z Th30n: Shinmera, kenanb: Thanks! I think I'll go with qtools
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2016-02-09T16:03:27Z Shinmera: in other news, does anyone know what the hell this error is about? https://travis-ci.org/Shinmera/simple-tasks/jobs/99272770 I can't reproduce it myself.
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2016-02-09T16:05:22Z Fuchur: Hello. I want to use some libraries (sqlite and xhtmlambda) in CLISP. I had a little bit experience in LISP many years ago (but would still call me a "beginner") but never used any libraries. Now I wanted to use CLISP again to do some "real" programming.
2016-02-09T16:05:45Z Shinmera: Fuchur: do you mean Common Lisp or CLISP (the implementation) specifically?
2016-02-09T16:05:46Z Fuchur: I finally managed to use ASDF as that seems to be required to use libraries (not really understood what ASDF is for, though) by loading it with (load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf/asdf.lisp").
2016-02-09T16:05:49Z kenanb: Fuchur: CLISP is not Common Lisp, it is an implementation of it
2016-02-09T16:05:54Z Fuchur: I know
2016-02-09T16:06:08Z Fuchur: I use CLISP as an implementation of Common LISP
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2016-02-09T16:06:21Z kenanb: checkout quicklisp
2016-02-09T16:06:33Z Shinmera: Fuchur: ASDF is a build system.
2016-02-09T16:07:30Z Fuchur: Yes, I read it's something like make but don't get why it is needed for using libraries.
2016-02-09T16:08:16Z kenanb: Fuchur: in order to build and load a system (a library e.g.), you need to use ASDF, but for that you need the system downloaded and put in a location for ASDF to find. Quicklisp will automatically download the system you requested, and loads it using ASDF automatically
2016-02-09T16:08:19Z Shinmera: Because the libraries need to be built somehow?
2016-02-09T16:08:26Z Zhivago: Libraries have and produce dependencies.
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2016-02-09T16:09:00Z Fuchur: Shinmera: Isn't Common LISP an interpreter language - at least usually.
2016-02-09T16:09:13Z loke``: Fuchur: No.
2016-02-09T16:09:19Z Shinmera: Fuchur: not at all.
2016-02-09T16:09:19Z Fuchur: Shinmera: Why do I have to "build" something then?
2016-02-09T16:09:24Z Fuchur: Hmm.
2016-02-09T16:09:46Z loke``: Fuchur: However, the word "interpreter" generally refers to a specific implementation, and rarely to a language.
2016-02-09T16:09:51Z Shinmera: Fuchur: because typing possibly hundreds of LOAD forms yourself is very tedious.
2016-02-09T16:10:10Z kenanb: Fuchur: so download quicklisp, set it up as it says in the page. then start your lisp implementation do (ql:quicklisp "name-of-library-you-want")
2016-02-09T16:10:45Z Shinmera: Fuchur: you don't have to build anything, but it's the convenient way to do it.
2016-02-09T16:12:13Z kenanb: Fuchur: and don't focus on the word build for now, it is hardly relevant for a beginner
2016-02-09T16:13:10Z Fuchur: OK, already used quicklisp from Debian and it seems to work somehow. I downloaded xhtmlamdba and after a long time it was downloaded. But what now? In most libraries the only sentence is "Install and load it the usual way". But what is the "usual way" to load a library. I installed cl-sqlite from Debian
2016-02-09T16:13:36Z Fuchur: and I got it to work somehow (though it gives me some warnings at load time, but otherwise seems to work correctly) by using (asdf:load-system :sqlite) and then (use-package :sqlite), although the (very short) documentation says that I could use only (require :sqlite) which didn't work. So that couldn't be the usual way???
2016-02-09T16:13:57Z loke``: Fuchur: None of them are correct though
2016-02-09T16:14:08Z loke``: Fuchur: All you need to do is (ql:quickload :sqlite)
2016-02-09T16:14:26Z kenanb: Shinmera: I didn't actually want to suggest completely ditching qtools, it is a very good layer in general, but choosing non-lispy bindings over lispy ones is not totally silly
2016-02-09T16:14:56Z Fuchur: loke: I did (ql:quickload "xhtmlambda") - and now?
2016-02-09T16:15:05Z loke``: Fuchur: Now it's loaded
2016-02-09T16:15:49Z Fuchur: Hmm, you mean I have to do (ql:quickload "xhtmlambda") every time I use the lib?
2016-02-09T16:15:54Z Shinmera: kenanb: Qtools still uses CommonQt beneath. If you want you can pick and choose and mix.
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2016-02-09T16:16:09Z Shinmera: kenanb: It was specifically designed to allow you to do that if you want to for whatever reason
2016-02-09T16:16:16Z mordocai: Fuchur: it will cache the download if that's what you are worried about
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2016-02-09T16:16:22Z mordocai: and the compilation
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2016-02-09T16:17:00Z kenanb: Shinmera: when you constantly have to go between C++ documentation and your lisp code, I sometimes choose to use #_ reader macro first, then translate when I am 100% sure the code is working.
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2016-02-09T16:17:04Z mordocai: Generally for a project you'll use ASDF to declare your dependencies then quickload your project, but for one off stuff you'll just (ql:quickload "blah")
2016-02-09T16:17:20Z kenanb: Shinmera: yes, that design decision is a very nice one
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2016-02-09T16:17:33Z Shinmera: kenanb: The thing about Q+ is that it errors when a method doesn't exist at compile time.
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2016-02-09T16:17:46Z Shinmera: kenanb: And the translation rules for the names are very simple to remember, I'd think.
2016-02-09T16:18:15Z Fuchur: OK, so I use
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2016-02-09T16:19:12Z Fuchur: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") in my .clisprc.lisp and (ql:quickload "xhtmlambda") is the first in my .lisp file with my program I load in.
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2016-02-09T16:21:01Z mordocai: Fuchur: Yeah, that'll work. Once you get comfortable you'll probably want to learn more about ASDF and use it + quicklisp to manage dependencies.
2016-02-09T16:21:16Z mordocai: You don't -have- to though if you are just making stuff for yourself
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2016-02-09T16:22:24Z kenanb: Shinmera: they are, that's why I choose to go full Q+, but when something doesn't work, or when I am experimenting with something that will possibly error, I like getting rid of the whole translation layer from the relevant code, at least till I know it works without translations
2016-02-09T16:22:31Z kenanb: Shinmera: then I add them back
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2016-02-09T16:23:52Z Shinmera: kenanb: aight. The translation layer is probably the most reliable aspect of Qtools, but alright.
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2016-02-09T16:26:13Z warweasle: What's the name of the common lisp based emacs?
2016-02-09T16:26:27Z Shinmera: climacs
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2016-02-09T16:26:45Z warweasle: Shinmera: Thanks
2016-02-09T16:27:13Z kenanb: Shinmera: it is not about if the library is reliable or not, it is about if the user is reliable to properly follow all the rules of translation all the time, and about the extra mental load of constantly translating what you read at the example code
2016-02-09T16:27:40Z Shinmera: kenanb: For me that's an inexistent load.
2016-02-09T16:27:53Z Shinmera shrugs
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2016-02-09T16:28:55Z kenanb: Shinmera: well, it exists, for the majority
2016-02-09T16:29:10Z Shinmera: kenanb: can you back that claim up? :)
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2016-02-09T16:30:18Z kenanb: Shinmera: are you seriously suggesting that translating a whole name according to a rule is not more error-prone than simply adding a prefix to the current version from the user perspective?
2016-02-09T16:30:49Z Shinmera: kenanb: Yes, because the former has actual typo checking at compile time, whereas the latter does not.
2016-02-09T16:30:49Z kenanb: Shinmera: does the argument really needs a scientific proof?
2016-02-09T16:31:03Z warweasle: Who are the climacs maintainers? Is it still an active project?
2016-02-09T16:31:16Z mordocai: warweasle: beach was working on Clx to work on it again last i heard
2016-02-09T16:31:39Z mordocai: warweasle: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2016-02-09T16:31:49Z warweasle: mordocai: I thought beach was making a lisp os.
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2016-02-09T16:32:05Z mordocai: warweasle: I don't know all of what beach is up to
2016-02-09T16:32:16Z dwchandler: sicl?
2016-02-09T16:32:18Z warweasle: mordocai: Thanks for the link.
2016-02-09T16:32:45Z kenanb: Shinmera: you are still comparing the capabilities of two libraries, while I am comparing the mental load added by translation rules
2016-02-09T16:33:04Z Shinmera: kenanb: The mental load is reduced when the computer does stuff for you.
2016-02-09T16:33:17Z Shinmera: kenanb: So the capabilities certainly do matter.
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2016-02-09T16:35:15Z moore33: I used to think it was important to stay absolutely compatible with the foreign library names and favored e.g. glBindVertexAttribPointer, but now I'm totally on board with typing gl:bind-vertex-attrib-pointer instead.
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2016-02-09T16:37:19Z kenanb: Shinmera: dude, I am shocked, seriously, I am actually providing feedback as an actual user of your library, by actually thinking of the problems I had and how I fixed them, you are somehow trying to win the argument. I actually had the experience of having problems with Qtools, I debugged them, and so many times dropping to qt bindings helped me solve it. :D
2016-02-09T16:37:38Z kenanb: s/qt bindings/commonqt bindings
2016-02-09T16:37:50Z Shinmera: kenanb: That's fine, but you're trying to claim that your own experience is the norm.
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2016-02-09T16:39:07Z kenanb: Shinmera: well, if you look at a million libraries out there that deliberately do not translate the ffi bindings to local conventions to not bring mental load of translation on user side, you'll see I am not alone in my thesis
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2016-02-09T16:39:41Z Shinmera: Not translating them can have a multitude of other reasons, and I'd say the translation is a minor one.
2016-02-09T16:40:09Z Shinmera: Usually the issue is that there's no way to consistently translate them due to ambiguity.
2016-02-09T16:40:26Z Shinmera: *translation mental load
2016-02-09T16:40:44Z Shinmera: Qt is "lucky" in that regard because it's rather strict in its naming.
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2016-02-09T17:07:28Z jackdaniel: shall we announce the winner? (:
2016-02-09T17:08:13Z Shinmera: Why are people treating discussions as fights all the time
2016-02-09T17:08:14Z phoe_krk: who wins what?
2016-02-09T17:08:18Z phoe_krk: oh
2016-02-09T17:08:33Z edgar-rft wins a million
2016-02-09T17:08:44Z phoe_krk: who was arguing again?
2016-02-09T17:10:03Z warweasle: #lisp, where the opinions are made up and points don't matter.
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2016-02-09T17:10:13Z jackdaniel: idk about the people, but *some* discussiosn loose theirs discussion merit for ego fight
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2016-02-09T17:12:06Z warweasle: jackdaniel: No they don't and I'll fight with anyone who says differently! :)
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2016-02-09T17:12:19Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-02-09T17:13:07Z kenanb: well, I can gracefully lose if there is any fight to lose, as long as I know the discussion was helpful in a way, and I respect Shinmera for the awesome library that he wrote and I rely on in my application, so there is really no fight
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2016-02-09T17:13:52Z Shinmera: I don't see any fight anywhere, which is why I'm confused about this suddenly being a thing
2016-02-09T17:14:18Z Shinmera: If there's a disagreement about points why would that have to suddenly be a "fight"?
2016-02-09T17:15:10Z mordocai: People have their egos too tied up with their opinions nowadays. I have to fight against that tendency myself.
2016-02-09T17:15:23Z mordocai: I don't always succeed.
2016-02-09T17:15:25Z moore33: modocai: Bullshit!
2016-02-09T17:15:30Z moore33 ducks
2016-02-09T17:15:38Z jdz: how dare you not respect my totally bestest and rightest opinion!?
2016-02-09T17:16:36Z antoszka: moore33: is that duck typing? :)
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2016-02-09T17:16:54Z jdz: he sure typed ducks
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2016-02-09T17:17:36Z moore33: heh
2016-02-09T17:17:53Z kenanb: I have been checking for the last 30 minutes for an example from my code using qtools, hoping I actually left something as commonqt bindings instead of q+ translated version, turns out I actually used the lispified version of everything in the end, I guess that shows how much I am in favor of lispified conventions, too. I just know that I sometimes temporarily fallback to #_fooBar when debugging. that was the whole argument. besides
2016-02-09T17:17:53Z kenanb: that, qtools rocks
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2016-02-09T17:18:26Z Shinmera: And that's all fine and good :)
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2016-02-09T17:18:54Z Shinmera just wishes the bloody deployment parts weren't such a pain in the neck and he didn't have to figure out how to fix them by himself
2016-02-09T17:19:14Z jdz: where's the opensource fairy when you need one!
2016-02-09T17:19:44Z Shinmera: indeed.
2016-02-09T17:20:13Z phoe_krk: she's busy doing her million eyes thing elsewhere.
2016-02-09T17:20:18Z kenanb: Shinmera: btw I haven't tested anything on windows side wishfully thinking it will be ok, is it ok tho? I don't mind trying to build it really hard, I just wonder if it will finally work reliably.
2016-02-09T17:20:19Z phoe_krk: she's only got two, so she has lots of work.
2016-02-09T17:20:48Z Shinmera: kenanb: Occasionally there's bugs in CommonQt itself, but for the most part It Just Weks™
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2016-02-09T17:21:14Z Shinmera: I may perhaps might possibly maybe perchance have broken qt-libs recently, but it might also still work just fine.
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2016-02-09T17:21:26Z Shinmera: I can't rake up the energy to test right now.
2016-02-09T17:21:36Z Shinmera: *Werks™
2016-02-09T17:22:37Z kenanb: Shinmera: any possible pitfalls you can think of that will arise when image is dumped and copied to other computers (with same architecture and os) instead of dynamically loading the system?
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2016-02-09T17:22:57Z moore33: Shinmera: Are there any plans for CommonQt etc. and Qt5?
2016-02-09T17:23:01Z kenanb: I don't really know why I didn't just use the word "distributed"
2016-02-09T17:23:09Z Shinmera: kenanb: That's the deployment part. As long as you don't use any other shared libraries but the Qt ones it should work marvellously well.
2016-02-09T17:23:37Z Shinmera: moore33: Ask Stas about that. The plan is still to get Clasp up to speed and then use that to ditch Smoke.
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2016-02-09T17:24:21Z kenanb: Shinmera: woot!
2016-02-09T17:25:19Z moore33: Shinmera: Not sure I understand. Run on Clasp, or use Clasp to generate cffi bindings or something?
2016-02-09T17:25:31Z Shinmera: moore33: the latter
2016-02-09T17:25:37Z moore33: Ok :)
2016-02-09T17:25:58Z Shinmera: It would not be a very, say, popular choice to only support Clasp.
2016-02-09T17:26:06Z moore33: Indeed not.
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2016-02-09T17:40:25Z jasom: Shinmera: did you read drmeister's latest post on ditching python for generating the C++ bindings for clasp?
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2016-02-09T17:42:13Z Shinmera: Yes, I  contributed to that decision.
2016-02-09T17:42:38Z Shinmera: If you're referring to the scraper switch.
2016-02-09T17:42:43Z jasom: yup
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2016-02-09T17:43:24Z Shinmera: It took quite a bit convincing, but coupled with the source tracking change we managed to convince drmeister to go this route.
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2016-02-09T17:44:12Z drmeister: Yeah - and it was a great idea.
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2016-02-09T18:21:00Z drmeister: Does it make sense to have a tagged pointer to code?
2016-02-09T18:21:34Z drmeister: In Clasp closures are allocated on the heap and they wrap a function pointer.
2016-02-09T18:21:51Z drmeister: But that means that I'm consing closures even when they don't contain data.
2016-02-09T18:22:16Z drmeister: If I had a tagged pointer to code then I wouldn't need to do that.
2016-02-09T18:22:18Z jasom: drmeister: many implementations have a different type for functions that close over some data and those that do not
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2016-02-09T18:23:12Z drmeister: I think I need that.
2016-02-09T18:23:57Z drmeister: I can open up some tags in my tagging scheme by taking two bits out of FIXNUMs and use them for pointers.
2016-02-09T18:26:08Z drmeister: I think I shall.
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2016-02-09T18:27:32Z drmeister: I've always wanted a pointer to word aligned C memory as well.
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2016-02-09T19:02:30Z learning: I need some criticism for a function I'm writing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306893
2016-02-09T19:02:49Z learning: I can't seem to think of a beautiful way of doing it.
2016-02-09T19:03:54Z learning: It just splits a string by the given character (defaulting to #\Space).
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2016-02-09T19:05:41Z Bicyclidine: perfect is the enemy of the good, you know. they're fine enough functions.
2016-02-09T19:06:16Z Bicyclidine: the thing that actually bothers me is the check for the last character. i'd just put the last word on in a finally clause or something.
2016-02-09T19:06:25Z Bicyclidine: that would also let you do an if ... else ...
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2016-02-09T19:10:25Z White_Flame: there is a split-sequence library
2016-02-09T19:10:47Z Bicyclidine: also, you should try more pathological inputs, i think split2 would return blank strings on "hello   world"
2016-02-09T19:11:20Z jackdaniel: it has a keyword :remove-empty-subseqs
2016-02-09T19:11:33Z jackdaniel: (split-sequence that is)
2016-02-09T19:11:43Z Bicyclidine: i assume learning is writing this as practice.
2016-02-09T19:12:08Z jackdaniel: right, didn't read the context
2016-02-09T19:12:10Z jackdaniel: mb
2016-02-09T19:12:43Z learning: for serious projects i'd prolly use cl-ppcre
2016-02-09T19:12:52Z learning: or split-sequence as mentioned
2016-02-09T19:13:01Z learning: i'm just trying to get better at writing loops
2016-02-09T19:13:21Z White_Flame: you could traverse the string by using FIND instead of going char by char
2016-02-09T19:13:26Z White_Flame: erm, POSITION, not FIND
2016-02-09T19:13:55Z White_Flame: hopping from space to next space, subseq'ing out the relevant portions
2016-02-09T19:14:04Z phoe_krk: like chewing off the part until the next space?
2016-02-09T19:14:16Z phoe_krk: it would also be easy to rule out empty strings this way, coming from multispaces
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2016-02-09T19:16:51Z learning: i'm playing around with finally, but it means calling (get-output-stream-string) in 2 different places
2016-02-09T19:18:13Z Bicyclidine: no big deal.
2016-02-09T19:18:24Z White_Flame: if you're seeking to find how to write this as a seasoned lisper would, I would not use string streams.  Rather use subseq.
2016-02-09T19:19:00Z learning: white_flame what would the first line of that loop look like?
2016-02-09T19:19:26Z learning: i'm trying to write it without duplicate logic
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2016-02-09T19:19:50Z White_Flame: you do have to basically "fake a space" at the end of the string
2016-02-09T19:20:03Z White_Flame: if you're trying to eliminate duplicate logic
2016-02-09T19:20:07Z learning: or in the case of the first example, doing something I didn't intend to do (add a space) and then ahve to clean it up
2016-02-09T19:20:31Z White_Flame: or have a flet that you call when you hit a space, or when you hit the end
2016-02-09T19:20:31Z learning: it's cool though, i thought there might be something obvious i was missing
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2016-02-09T19:21:49Z Bicyclidine: (loop for pos = 0 then next-pos for next-pos = (position split string :start pos) collect (subseq string pos next-pos) while next-pos) except that probably doesn't work for some reason.
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2016-02-09T19:22:28Z learning: oh ok
2016-02-09T19:22:31Z White_Flame: won't get the def of "abc def"
2016-02-09T19:23:04Z learning: prolly something like (loop for pos = (position split string :start 0) then pos = (position split string :start position)
2016-02-09T19:23:06Z White_Flame: the next-pos could be (or (position #\Space string :start next-pos) (length string))
2016-02-09T19:23:14Z Bicyclidine: actually it just loops forever. sweet.
2016-02-09T19:23:14Z pjb: learning: what's wrong with cesarum? http://paste.lisp.org/display/306893#1
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2016-02-09T19:27:37Z learning: in another lisp tip xach said streams are significantly faster for things like file-io. would streams be faster for something like this as well?
2016-02-09T19:27:48Z Bicyclidine: Faster than what?
2016-02-09T19:27:58Z learning: than going character by character, or line by line
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2016-02-09T19:28:17Z learning: i guess building up a string?
2016-02-09T19:28:22Z White_Flame: you can stream characters, or stream lines...
2016-02-09T19:28:38Z jasom: with-output-to-string is one of the faster ways to build up a string, yes
2016-02-09T19:28:40Z White_Flame: but right now you're streaming characters in your originally pasted code, so that's why I mentioned to use subseq instead
2016-02-09T19:28:44Z learning: hmm i'll go find the tip and reread it. i must have misunderstood
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2016-02-09T19:29:16Z White_Flame: if you stream large blocks at the OS interface, that's certainly much faster than asking the OS calls for character-by-character
2016-02-09T19:29:28Z White_Flame: but at some inner loop you'll tend to be processing a character at a time
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2016-02-09T19:32:10Z pjb: White_Flame: not when you use subseq, replace, mismatch, etc.
2016-02-09T19:32:20Z learning: i guess i meant streaming into vectors?
2016-02-09T19:32:35Z White_Flame: the scanning is still char-by-char, but yeah I'd recommend the copying to be done with subseq
2016-02-09T19:32:35Z learning: which is not what i'm doing in my function
2016-02-09T19:32:49Z Bicyclidine: pjb: what's the (< position strlen) for?
2016-02-09T19:32:50Z pjb: those functions have the opportunity to work machine-word by machine-word, or even cache line by cache line, using low level tricks.
2016-02-09T19:33:04Z pjb: Bicyclidine: stop condition.
2016-02-09T19:33:13Z pjb: Bicyclidine: you don't need to split beyond the end of the string.
2016-02-09T19:33:23Z Bicyclidine: well, yes, i meant when does it come up?
2016-02-09T19:33:54Z Bicyclidine: Like, in what situation is nextpos non-null and that.
2016-02-09T19:34:19Z White_Flame: the next position to stop is either the next space or the end of the strings
2016-02-09T19:34:21Z White_Flame: -s
2016-02-09T19:34:37Z White_Flame: and if it's EOS, you're done
2016-02-09T19:34:57Z pjb: Bicyclidine: yes, I think you're right.
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2016-02-09T19:35:56Z Bicyclidine: though i guess it lets you add :start :end keywords pretty easily
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2016-02-09T19:42:01Z jasom: jackdaniel: do you happen to know how I can add extra cflags to ecl?  I tried ./configure CFLAGS="stuff" but it didn't seem to affect the build
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2016-02-09T20:11:26Z jackdaniel: jasom: CFLAGS should work OK, but you may also try ECL_CFLAGS (just a guess, this variable is present in src/configure)
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2016-02-09T20:11:41Z jasom: jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-02-09T20:42:36Z attila_lendvai: ouch, cffi in ql is the release, so hu.dwim.sdl cannot be included in the next ql batch... damn.
2016-02-09T20:43:36Z pjb: just rename it hu.dwim.sdl.cffi
2016-02-09T20:43:56Z Xach_: Sure it can.
2016-02-09T20:44:01Z Xach_: Request a new cffi release.
2016-02-09T20:45:03Z pjb: Sorry, I read Qt, not ql.
2016-02-09T20:45:43Z attila_lendvai: luis: what do you think about a new CFFI release?
2016-02-09T20:46:09Z attila_lendvai: luis: alternatively, some projects have a 'quicklisp' branch and ql uses that to package the next ql release
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2016-02-09T21:18:37Z hexaj: /msg NickServ REGISTER mptrkorgr35 jb@jeremybryant.net
2016-02-09T21:18:37Z hexaj:  
2016-02-09T21:18:59Z Shinmera: well done
2016-02-09T21:19:58Z White_Flame: hunter2
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2016-02-09T21:25:09Z jasom: White_Flame: all I see is ******* but you see hunter2
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2016-02-09T21:28:46Z MikeSeth: not this shit again
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2016-02-09T22:10:24Z ralt: hm
2016-02-09T22:10:59Z ralt: why doesn't (let ((process (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/bash" nil :wait nil :output t))) (sleep 9999)) print bash prompt?
2016-02-09T22:11:02Z ralt: what am I missing?
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2016-02-09T22:12:39Z Shinmera: There's no TTY
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2016-02-09T22:14:24Z ralt: Shinmera: hm
2016-02-09T22:14:29Z ralt: how can I simulate one?
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2016-02-09T22:15:06Z Shinmera: Try :pty T, I guess
2016-02-09T22:15:34Z ralt: that doesn't work either
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2016-02-09T23:35:36Z smith_: quick question.  learning javascript, just found out about its closures with that exception about how variables are bound by reference and if you create multiple instances of a closure in the same scope, that they will all share values
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2016-02-09T23:36:59Z smith_: playing with CL to see if it does the same thing, and it doesn't seem to.  Does this js silliness provide any flexibility?  it seems like the whole point of a closure is that things become reachable only in code explicitly written so
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2016-02-09T23:37:59Z smith_: or am i wrong in that CL behaves the same way and thats just how closures work?
2016-02-09T23:38:42Z Bicyclidine: not sure i understand how javascript works here.
2016-02-09T23:39:01Z smith_: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Closures
2016-02-09T23:39:20Z smith_: about midway down where it describes multiple closures created in the same loop
2016-02-09T23:41:08Z Bicyclidine: oh, that's a more specific issue then. It's actually undefined whether a loop creates a new binding for each iteration or just changes one throughout, in CL.
2016-02-09T23:42:12Z smith_: oh really!
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2016-02-09T23:44:08Z Bicyclidine: Yeah, well, basically it amounts to whether (loop for x from 0 ...code...) expands to (let ((counter 0)) (tagbody loop (let ((x counter)) ...code...) (incf counter) (go loop))) or (let ((x 0)) (tagbody loop ...code... (go loop))). the standard leaves it up to implementations.
2016-02-09T23:45:59Z smith_: hmm ok, thanks
2016-02-09T23:46:40Z smith_: i see
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2016-02-09T23:47:06Z smith_: in the former case x is bound fresh each loop, and in the latter it is the same variable presumably overwritten
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2016-02-09T23:47:47Z Bicyclidine: right.
2016-02-09T23:47:47Z smith_: in which case calls to create the closures inside the tagbodies would share x, as opposed to grab a fresh binding, right?
2016-02-09T23:47:54Z Bicyclidine: ayep.
2016-02-09T23:47:58Z smith_: oooooo
2016-02-09T23:48:13Z Bicyclidine: of course, if you need fresh bindings you can do (let ((x x)) ...) or something.
2016-02-09T23:48:22Z smith_: its taken me a few years, but some of this is finally starting to click
2016-02-09T23:48:38Z smith_: i see how I can guarantee it one way or another
2016-02-09T23:49:06Z smith_: and now I understand why the js doc on this topic is preceeded by "prior to the introduction of let"
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2016-02-09T23:50:39Z smith_: thank you!
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2016-02-09T23:51:46Z Bicyclidine: no prob
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2016-02-10T00:15:40Z isoraqathedh: How does one, given a function object like #'foo, find its setf function, i.e. #'(setf foo)?
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2016-02-10T00:16:33Z |3b|: no good way to do so
2016-02-10T00:16:42Z |3b|: (and not possible in general)
2016-02-10T00:17:28Z eudoxia: ahh the monthly closing of the quicklisp-projects issues
2016-02-10T00:17:33Z eudoxia: feelsgoodman.jpg
2016-02-10T00:17:33Z |3b|: you could have multiple symbols naming the same function object with different setf functions, or no symbols naming the object, or no setf function
2016-02-10T00:18:18Z isoraqathedh: Well this scuppers my plan a little.
2016-02-10T00:18:33Z |3b|: there might be some implementation specific way to get a name for a function object, but not portably, and subject to the above problems even if so
2016-02-10T00:18:55Z Xach_ is glad to be closing today
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2016-02-10T00:19:01Z |3b|: aside from that, you can just store your own mapping somewhere for a limited subset of functions if that is enough
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2016-02-10T00:21:08Z isoraqathedh: That will do nicely.
2016-02-10T00:22:04Z eudoxia: isoraqathedh: fyi, you can override the macroexpander to catch every defun and defmethod and populate a table
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2016-02-10T01:09:32Z muyinliu: Hi, everyone.
2016-02-10T01:09:57Z muyinliu: I'm writing a cl redis connection pool for cl-redis
2016-02-10T01:11:34Z eudoxia: neat
2016-02-10T01:12:15Z muyinliu: How to make this come true: When redis-connection-error is signal, auto reconnect, if reconnect fail 3 times, abandon current connection and create a new connection.
2016-02-10T01:14:22Z muyinliu: Common Lisp variable's scope is a little complex...
2016-02-10T01:16:48Z eudoxia: well, you can have a dynamic variable somewhere *reconnect-attempts* that's initially set to 3
2016-02-10T01:17:25Z eudoxia: then a handler-case or handler-bind (i forgot which one's the good one) that catches connection errors, checks the value of the variable: if it's zero, give up, if it's >0, decrement it and try to reconnect
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2016-02-10T01:20:15Z Bike: (let ((reconnects 3)) (handler-bind ((redis-connection-error (lambda (c) (cond ((zerop reconnects) (error c)) (t (decf reconnects) (invoke-restart 'reconnect c)))))) (connect)), more or less
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2016-02-10T01:23:24Z muyinliu: wait a second...
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2016-02-10T01:59:49Z loke: Good morning Lisp!
2016-02-10T02:00:08Z warweasle: loke: Good morning Viet Nam!
2016-02-10T02:00:17Z warweasle: loke: I mean good morning.
2016-02-10T02:00:32Z loke: warweasle: Not yet. I'm cosidering going there on vacation soon though.
2016-02-10T02:00:40Z loke: Heading to Phillipines next week
2016-02-10T02:01:12Z warweasle: loke: That's cool. I never go anywhere. Except work.
2016-02-10T02:01:51Z loke: warweasle: I'm going on several vacations this year. Except for Philippines, I'm going to Australia next month and Spoan/France in the summer
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2016-02-10T02:01:57Z loke: Then Hong Kong after that
2016-02-10T02:02:19Z loke: Spaoan = Spain, of course
2016-02-10T02:02:21Z warweasle: loke: Damn, that's awesome.
2016-02-10T02:02:40Z warweasle: I've got to go afk for a while. Maybe we can talk later.
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2016-02-10T04:15:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-10T04:15:30Z emaczen: Is there an existing CLOS generic function whose intention is to update slots based upon other slots?
2016-02-10T04:15:33Z emaczen: morning beach
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2016-02-10T04:16:01Z emaczen: I tried reinitialize-instance without luck
2016-02-10T04:16:33Z loke: emaczen: You can use initialize-instance for that
2016-02-10T04:16:35Z beach: You want it done automatically when you update a slot?
2016-02-10T04:17:10Z loke: if it's dynamic, just implement the method (SETF SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS)
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2016-02-10T04:17:48Z emaczen: beach: automatically would be interesting -- but unnecesary
2016-02-10T04:17:49Z beach: That probably doesn't work if the slot is updated from a slot writer function.
2016-02-10T04:17:59Z emaczen: What is slot-value-using-class?
2016-02-10T04:18:08Z beach: emaczen: Then reinitialize-instance should work, provided you call it.
2016-02-10T04:18:10Z loke: emaczen: It's the method use to update or read slots.
2016-02-10T04:18:20Z beach: mop s-v-u-c
2016-02-10T04:18:20Z specbot: slot-value-using-class: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html
2016-02-10T04:19:27Z beach: emaczen: (reinitialize-instance object :new-value (f (some-accessor object)))
2016-02-10T04:19:33Z beach: emaczen: I do that all the time.
2016-02-10T04:20:19Z emaczen: beach: I'll try reinitialize-instance again -- I want to avoid defining my own generic function (which I did for the mean time)
2016-02-10T04:20:40Z beach: emaczen: This is where we ask "what is it that you REALLY want to do?"
2016-02-10T04:21:05Z beach: I mean, why can't you just do (setf (accessor1 object) (f (accessor2 object)))?
2016-02-10T04:21:50Z emaczen: I want it to leverage my existing after methods defined for each class/subclass/superclass
2016-02-10T04:22:25Z emaczen: Right now, my after methods for initialize-instance just call my existing generic function -- it is a bit hacky, and probably will be more difficult to extend
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2016-02-10T04:25:28Z emaczen: beach: you use slot-value-using-class all the time?
2016-02-10T04:25:35Z beach: No.
2016-02-10T04:25:37Z beach: Never.
2016-02-10T04:25:51Z beach: Always accessors.
2016-02-10T04:25:56Z emaczen: You use reinitialize-instance all the time then?
2016-02-10T04:26:12Z beach: Only if I have not exported writer to the slot.
2016-02-10T04:26:28Z beach: If all I have is a reader and an initarg, then I use reinitialize-instance.
2016-02-10T04:26:51Z beach: "Only if I have NO exported writer to the slot."
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2016-02-10T04:28:12Z beach: If I have a slot writer, I use it.
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2016-02-10T04:28:43Z circ-user-TPBtm: Is there a way to have an arbitrary specializer predicate for methods? i.e. not just EQL specializer
2016-02-10T04:29:05Z beach: circ-user-TPBtm: Yes, but not in the standard.
2016-02-10T04:29:16Z beach: circ-user-TPBtm: See the work by Xof, for instance.
2016-02-10T04:30:27Z beach: This one maybe: http://research.gold.ac.uk/9924/1/els-specializers.pdf
2016-02-10T04:31:09Z circ-user-TPBtm: thanks!
2016-02-10T04:31:54Z beach: More stuff like that: http://www.p-cos.net/documents/filtered-dispatch.pdf
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2016-02-10T04:32:27Z beach: One more: http://www.european-lisp-workshop.org/archives/07.rhodes.pdf
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2016-02-10T04:46:11Z drmeister: Hello
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2016-02-10T04:46:49Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2016-02-10T04:46:59Z drmeister: Hi beach - I had a question about transforming code
2016-02-10T04:47:17Z drmeister: (multiple-value-call (lambda (x y ...) ...) (form1 ...))
2016-02-10T04:47:44Z drmeister: Does Cleavir have anything to transform inline the function-form lambda in that case?
2016-02-10T04:48:09Z drmeister: Does Cleavir have anything to inline the function-form lambda in that case?
2016-02-10T04:48:27Z drmeister: That lambda may have &optional and &rest arguments
2016-02-10T04:48:29Z beach: I don't think it does.
2016-02-10T04:48:45Z beach: ... have anything to inline it.
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2016-02-10T04:49:03Z drmeister: It would be done at the AST level - correct?  In compile-ast
2016-02-10T04:49:59Z beach: With the existing mechanism, I think so, yes.
2016-02-10T04:50:02Z drmeister: I'm asking because the way it is now the function-form is enclose'd and that leads to consing.
2016-02-10T04:50:43Z beach: Right.
2016-02-10T04:51:01Z drmeister: Ok - I'm checking my thinking.
2016-02-10T04:52:11Z beach: This is a result of MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND?
2016-02-10T04:54:40Z drmeister: If I were to optimize the common case (multiple-value-call function-form form) and if function form  came from (lambda (x y ...) ...) then I would have to take the multiple values returned by form and multiple-to-fixed into temporaries and then bind the temporaries to the lambda list of the function form.
2016-02-10T04:54:50Z drmeister: Yes - it is the result of multiple-value-bind.
2016-02-10T04:55:34Z drmeister: Clasp declares multiple-value-bind as a macro that expands to multiple-value-call - perhaps there is a better way?
2016-02-10T04:55:45Z Bike: that's pretty usual.
2016-02-10T04:56:08Z Bike: it is in fact given in the CLHS, how about that.
2016-02-10T04:56:15Z drmeister: Actually, now that you mention it, maybe there is.  Multiple-value-bind has a simpler lambda list than what is created for multiple-value-call.
2016-02-10T04:56:20Z beach: If it is possible to optimize the general case, it is preferable to do that, as opposed to optimizing only multiple-value-bind.
2016-02-10T04:56:41Z drmeister: Agreed.
2016-02-10T04:57:05Z beach: Otherwise, i.e., if you only optimize multiple-value-bind, you won't catch the case where someone actually wrote it with multiple-value-call.
2016-02-10T04:57:43Z beach: drmeister: Remind me how Cleavir compiles multiple-value-call?
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2016-02-10T04:57:52Z drmeister: In Clasp:  (macroexpand '(multiple-value-bind (x y) (values 1 2))) --> (MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL #'(LAMBDA (&OPTIONAL (X) (Y) &REST #:G5121)) (VALUES 1 2))
2016-02-10T04:59:14Z drmeister: (multiple-value-call function-form form)   generates code for form and fdefinition for function-form and then calls the result of (fdefinition function-form) with the multiple values returned by form.
2016-02-10T04:59:25Z drmeister: So the function-form generates an "enclose" instruction.
2016-02-10T04:59:47Z drmeister: That's what I'm interested in eliminating.
2016-02-10T05:00:13Z drmeister: Bike: I used the example from the CLHS
2016-02-10T05:00:20Z beach: I understand.  But I am surprised that the use of multiple-value-bind is so frequent that it even makes a difference.
2016-02-10T05:00:32Z Bike: really? i use it a lot.
2016-02-10T05:01:06Z drmeister: We are trying to eliminate consing as much as possible.
2016-02-10T05:01:09Z beach: Compared to, say, arithmetic?
2016-02-10T05:01:37Z Bike: not compared to arithmetic, but i don't think i understand the point of the comparison.
2016-02-10T05:01:58Z drmeister: If you have m-v-b in a loop it will cons
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2016-02-10T05:02:32Z beach: Bike: It just doesn't feel to me like this would be my first choice for optimization.  I respect that it is drmeister's of course.
2016-02-10T05:03:17Z Bike: without an optimization pretty much every use of multiple values conses closures, which makes multiple values kind of pointless.
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2016-02-10T05:03:49Z beach: That's true, yes.
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2016-02-10T05:04:10Z Bike: anyway, i don't know cleavir's architecture, but I wouldn't think it would be much different from regular inlining?  You just get every value of the argument forms instead of just the primaries, and do whatever you do for inlining.
2016-02-10T05:04:32Z beach: Bike: The comparison with arithmetic was meant to suggest that it is more urgent to work on type inference in order to avoid function calls for simple fixnum operations.
2016-02-10T05:05:18Z drmeister: Right now Clasp conses 60x more memory than SBCL when compiling ASDF.
2016-02-10T05:05:36Z Bike: i think drmeister is more concerned with space than speed, eheh
2016-02-10T05:05:49Z drmeister: I believe that memory == time
2016-02-10T05:06:03Z Bike: it does for something like compiling, yeah.
2016-02-10T05:06:21Z drmeister: Most of the time is the garbage collector doing it's thing.
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2016-02-10T05:06:45Z beach: MPS?
2016-02-10T05:06:55Z drmeister: I don't think there is much point in optimizing anything other than reducing consing.
2016-02-10T05:07:02Z drmeister: Not MPS yet - I'm working on it.
2016-02-10T05:07:40Z drmeister: I was able to eliminate consing from generic function dispatch and it dropped memory consumption to 1/3 of what it was and sped up Cleavir by 50%.
2016-02-10T05:07:53Z beach: Just to be clear: So it is possible that, once you use MPS, the time spent in the GC will be reduced?
2016-02-10T05:07:57Z drmeister: Unfortunately there were bugs in my approach and I had to walk back the changes.
2016-02-10T05:08:20Z drmeister: I'll tackle it again in the future - CLOS is complicated.
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2016-02-10T05:09:06Z beach: Anyway, this is not a problem of inlining as I define it for Cleavir.
2016-02-10T05:09:14Z Bike: wh not?
2016-02-10T05:10:02Z drmeister: It's possible and that is why I'm working on getting it working.   There are other issues involving MPS and so I don't want to pin all my hopes on it.   Memory that isn't allocated doesn't need to be collected.
2016-02-10T05:10:06Z beach: Let me think...
2016-02-10T05:10:34Z drmeister: Ugh, I was hoping that wasn't what you were going to say.  I was hoping it was a problem of inlining.
2016-02-10T05:10:39Z drmeister: Is it the lambda lists?
2016-02-10T05:10:54Z Bike: lambda lists are in regular inlining, so...
2016-02-10T05:10:59Z beach: "inlining" in Cleavir means replacing a function call AST by an equivalent AST that does no call.
2016-02-10T05:11:29Z beach: DAMIT, these are only words.
2016-02-10T05:11:46Z beach: Why does it matter what I mean by "inlining" in Cleavir?
2016-02-10T05:11:59Z beach: What matters is how you want to optimize this stuff.
2016-02-10T05:12:07Z drmeister: Can the same inlining facility be used in this case?
2016-02-10T05:12:29Z beach: The call here is to multiple-value-call.
2016-02-10T05:12:46Z beach: that would be subject to "inlining" as I use that word in Cleavir.
2016-02-10T05:12:58Z Bike: it's a special form, though...
2016-02-10T05:13:08Z Bike: operator. whatever
2016-02-10T05:13:12Z beach: Right.
2016-02-10T05:13:40Z beach: So it is not subject to "inlining" as I define that word in Cleavir.
2016-02-10T05:14:43Z drmeister: It seems to me that the problem is the lambda list.   (multiple-value-call (lambda (&optional (x) &rest rest) ...) (form)).   x needs to be bound to nil and rest needs to be consed depending on what is in the multiple-values array after (form) executes.
2016-02-10T05:15:31Z Bike: can cleavir not inline functions with complex lambda lists yet?
2016-02-10T05:15:37Z drmeister: I can envision generating instructions in ( compile-ast ((ast-node multiple-value-call) ...) ...)
2016-02-10T05:15:38Z Bike: inline calls to*
2016-02-10T05:16:02Z Bike: where is inlining in the code, by the way? there's a file in hir transformations but it's a stub.
2016-02-10T05:16:34Z drmeister: Bike: inline'ing happens in the AST now.
2016-02-10T05:16:36Z beach: Bike: I think that's true.  Only functions with only required parameters are inlined as I recall.
2016-02-10T05:17:01Z beach: I moved it from HIR to AST.
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2016-02-10T05:18:04Z Bike: i don't see it in AST-transformations either
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2016-02-10T05:18:35Z Bike: ah, it's in convert-form
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2016-02-10T05:21:26Z drmeister: If compile-ast for the common case (M-V-C function-form form) were to generate code for the function-form and then somehow connect up the inputs of the function-form to the multiple-value output by form - is what I'm thinking...
2016-02-10T05:21:43Z beach: drmeister: It's early for me, and I don't have this stuff fresh in my mind.  I need time to think.
2016-02-10T05:21:44Z drmeister: It's the "somehow connect up the inputs ..." where I'm uncertain.
2016-02-10T05:22:00Z drmeister: No problem. It's late for me and I need to sleep.
2016-02-10T05:22:09Z Bike: From looking at the code I'm not immediately sure how cleavir does multiple value stuff.
2016-02-10T05:22:28Z drmeister: multiple-to-fixed and fixed-to-multiple are key.
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2016-02-10T05:22:40Z Bike: you will of course probably need type inference stuff anyway, to know how much a form is returning
2016-02-10T05:22:49Z beach: Bike: HIR has a data type for multiple values.
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2016-02-10T05:23:56Z drmeister: Type inference would be nice but this m-v-c thing looks like something I can do now.
2016-02-10T05:23:58Z beach: To optimize this kind of stuff, some HIR transformations would be required, which would likely mean additional instructions and/or data types.
2016-02-10T05:24:15Z drmeister: No problem.  I know how to do stuff like that.
2016-02-10T05:24:25Z Bike: drmeister: if you want to inline you'll need to know how many multiple value outputs there are, you know?
2016-02-10T05:24:51Z drmeister: The code will have to account for that - yes.
2016-02-10T05:25:41Z drmeister: I'm working on bringing MPS back online.  I got some great pointers on how to debug GC problems that I'm implementing.
2016-02-10T05:26:08Z drmeister: I'm also working on reducing consing.   Reducing consing was a big win for CLOS but it is a tricky thing to get it right.
2016-02-10T05:26:42Z drmeister: The first CLOS implementations used special variables and everybody copied those.   SBCL somehow eliminated them.   I was somewhat successful but I couldn't quite manage it yet.
2016-02-10T05:26:46Z beach: Yes, CLOS is tricky.
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2016-02-10T05:27:27Z beach: Are you saying the use of special variables comes from PCL?
2016-02-10T05:27:45Z Bike: i'd buy it. pcl was pretty friggin weird.
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2016-02-10T05:28:19Z drmeister: That's what Pascal Costanza told me.
2016-02-10T05:28:30Z beach: He is usually right.
2016-02-10T05:28:51Z drmeister: For different reasons I looked into ABCL CLOS and it uses special variables.
2016-02-10T05:29:18Z beach: This is for next-method-p and call-next-method?
2016-02-10T05:29:26Z beach: Or more generally?
2016-02-10T05:29:59Z drmeister: I'm not confident enough to answer that question.  Definitely for method-args and next-methods
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2016-02-10T05:30:36Z drmeister: It's not a simple matter of just prepending a few arguments.  Or it may be but you have to do it properly in a dozen different places.
2016-02-10T05:30:47Z drmeister: I got it working well enough that I could compile all of Cleavir.
2016-02-10T05:31:05Z drmeister: I didn't do it alone, stassats gave me a strong push in the right direction.
2016-02-10T05:31:55Z drmeister: Everything looked great but ASDF wouldn't run properly.  I couldn't fix the problem so I saved the branch and unrolled the changes I'd made in my main development branch.
2016-02-10T05:32:33Z beach: I guess I fail to see the reason for using special variables for passing arguments to methods.  And this failure makes me worried that I missed something.
2016-02-10T05:32:47Z drmeister: But what I did get out of it was a 60% reduction in consing led to a 2x speedup
2016-02-10T05:32:57Z Bike: okay, so for the case of there being only one arg form in m-v-c, you could start out by copying make-call in convert-form, but replacing all the setqs with a multiple-to-fixed-instruction (which is boundary crossing, because I don't know how this works) and something to check the numbers match, which there does not seem to be an instruction for.
2016-02-10T05:34:26Z Bike: and plugging this into the mvc converter, of course
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2016-02-10T05:36:44Z Bike: oh, there's a multiple-value-setq-ast, that's probably more like it.
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2016-02-10T05:38:46Z drmeister: You are a quick study
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2016-02-10T05:41:53Z beach: Bah, it's because the code is well written. :)
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2016-02-10T05:42:09Z Bike: it is easy to navigate once i see where i am.
2016-02-10T05:42:17Z beach: I am very impressed.
2016-02-10T05:42:24Z loke: drmeister: How do you havele MVC in clasp?
2016-02-10T05:42:27Z loke: handle
2016-02-10T05:42:34Z loke: How are VM's returned?
2016-02-10T05:42:36Z Bike: and i'm just faking it. can't figure out where the parameter bindings are coming from in make-call. anyway i think the basic issue is that multiple-value-setq-ast is less strict than m-v-c.
2016-02-10T05:42:36Z loke: MV's
2016-02-10T05:47:25Z drmeister: MVC is a primitive that takes a closure and calls it with the multiple-values array values as arguments.   It's not suitable for what I'm asking for here because the closure that it takes requires consing.
2016-02-10T05:48:05Z beach: drmeister: How about allocating that closure on the stack?
2016-02-10T05:48:14Z drmeister: MVC is also only for the special case (M-V-C function-form form)
2016-02-10T05:48:42Z drmeister: For the case where there are multiple forms it's turned into a function call.
2016-02-10T05:49:05Z drmeister: beach: That's an idea - is there any danger of it escaping?
2016-02-10T05:49:11Z beach: drmeister: Ultimately, of course, there should be a general analysis that determines whether a closure can be stack allocated, but for m-v-c it is clear.
2016-02-10T05:49:27Z beach: I don't think so.  It is only called.
2016-02-10T05:49:50Z Bike: (multiple-value-call (labels ((foo () (setf *global* #'foo))) #'foo) ...) I think.
2016-02-10T05:50:03Z Bike: which is some hella pathology, but hey.
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2016-02-10T05:50:22Z drmeister: Ok, so does that need a different enclose-on-stack instruction?   or dynamic-extent-enclose?
2016-02-10T05:51:19Z beach: Right.  I was considering the case where the argument is the direct result of an ENCLOSE instruction.
2016-02-10T05:51:23Z drmeister: I think allocating the closure on the stack would be fine.
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2016-02-10T05:52:25Z beach: drmeister: As we have said before, be a bit cautious about introducing new instructions.
2016-02-10T05:53:14Z beach: drmeister: The information that an ENCLOSE instruction can create the closure on the stack can be kept separately, and not necessarily in the instruction itself.
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2016-02-10T05:55:59Z beach: So: 1. Check that the first argument to m-v-c is the output of an ENCLOSE instruction.  2. Note somewhere that this ENCLOSE instruction can allocate the closure on the stack.  3. Use that information when you generate code for ENCLOSE instructions.
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2016-02-10T05:56:43Z drmeister: Ok - would it be a slot in the enclose-instruction class?
2016-02-10T05:57:29Z beach: drmeister: As we have said before, be a bit cautious about modifying existing instructions.  You can keep this information in a separate hash table.
2016-02-10T05:58:14Z beach: (if (gethash instruction can-be-stack-allocated-table) ... ...)
2016-02-10T05:58:27Z Bike: is the multiple-value-setq-ast actually used right now? i'm not sure how it could compile.
2016-02-10T05:59:23Z beach: I don't think it is used.
2016-02-10T06:01:10Z drmeister: Well, if that's the case - do I even need the hash table?  When I generate code for enclose - can I check if it's output feeds into a M-V-C instruction?
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2016-02-10T06:02:01Z beach: I suppose that would be possible.
2016-02-10T06:02:08Z Bike: there's a comment referring to a multiple-value-bind-ast...
2016-02-10T06:02:38Z drmeister: See https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/sZnfLq3Z/mir.pdf
2016-02-10T06:03:09Z beach: Bike: Indeed.  It should be removed.
2016-02-10T06:03:25Z drmeister: The enclose following named-enter(LAMBDA):9 at the top
2016-02-10T06:03:44Z drmeister: It's output is G5170:12.  It feeds into MVC:26
2016-02-10T06:04:00Z drmeister: This is the MIR for (lambda () (multiple-value-bind (x y) (values 1 2) (foo x y)))
2016-02-10T06:04:37Z drmeister:  (macroexpand '(multiple-value-bind (x y) (values 1 2) (foo x y))) ->(MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL #'(LAMBDA (&OPTIONAL (X) (Y) &REST #:G5620) (FOO X Y))
2016-02-10T06:04:52Z beach: You need to check that: 1. The output of the enclose is used in a single instruction, 2. That that instruction is an MVC instruction, 3. That it is the first argument to the MVC instruction.
2016-02-10T06:05:23Z Bike: oh, shit, right, multiple-value-bind is way more forgiving than multiple-value-call.
2016-02-10T06:06:02Z drmeister: It feels like a hack to analyze the instruction graph this.  Please absolve me if it is not.
2016-02-10T06:06:10Z beach: Bike: What do you mean by "forgiving" here?
2016-02-10T06:06:15Z drmeister: s/graph this/graph like this/
2016-02-10T06:06:30Z Bike: taking an inexact number of parameters
2016-02-10T06:06:51Z emaczen: How do you macroexpand a readmacro?
2016-02-10T06:06:58Z Bike: READ it
2016-02-10T06:07:14Z beach: drmeister: It kind of is, but you seem to be eager to get this to work before a more general analysis is available.
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2016-02-10T06:11:05Z emaczen: Bike: Can you give me an example?
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2016-02-10T06:11:16Z Bike: (read-from-string "#(4 5 6)")
2016-02-10T06:12:23Z emaczen: thanks
2016-02-10T06:12:54Z Bike: there doesn't seem to be a compile method defined for multiple-value-prog1 ASTs either. bummer
2016-02-10T06:13:14Z beach: Sorry about that.
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2016-02-10T06:20:42Z drmeister: I think I'll do this at the HIR->MIR stage.   Specialize enclose-instruction if its output is only going into MVC
2016-02-10T06:22:15Z drmeister: Then it's at the last stage before translation and after most/all? optimizations.
2016-02-10T06:23:03Z drmeister: I'll sleep on it.
2016-02-10T06:23:13Z drmeister: beach, bike: Thanks for your advice
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2016-02-10T06:25:20Z beach: OK, sounds good to me.
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2016-02-10T07:19:35Z Bike: minion: memo for beach: i'm trying to write a patch to extend inlining to complex lambda lists, but I don't understand function-ast (among other things). where do rest parameters go?
2016-02-10T07:19:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-10T07:41:22Z smithligaly: I know this isn't really a lisp question, but those of you who have found yourself with terabytes of time series data to visualize, have you rolled your own with lisp or another langauge, or leveraged existing stuff, like influxdb and grafana or the like?
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2016-02-10T07:48:04Z otwieracz: Can I force call of inherited class constructor?
2016-02-10T07:48:24Z Bike: call-next-method in your constructor
2016-02-10T07:48:37Z otwieracz: And there's o other way to do this?
2016-02-10T07:48:58Z otwieracz: Because my inheriting class has no constructor – and I'd like to use inherited one.
2016-02-10T07:48:59Z Bike: no way other than the way you do it, I guess, sure.
2016-02-10T07:49:20Z Bike: if you don't have your own method than the inherited method will be called.
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2016-02-10T07:50:15Z Shinmera: Which class constructor are you talking about? usually a constructor is done with an initialize-instance :after method, in which case superclasses' methods are already called.
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2016-02-10T07:51:34Z otwieracz: Wait a second please - maybe there's some obsolete contructor still residing here - I will restart lisp
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2016-02-10T07:53:52Z otwieracz: OK, it's not working. Let me explain.
2016-02-10T07:54:09Z otwieracz: I've got class DB and initalize-instance :after ((db db…
2016-02-10T07:54:38Z otwieracz: I've got second class, let's say SPECIFIC-DB - and there's no initialize-instance for it.
2016-02-10T07:54:54Z otwieracz: SPECIFIC-DB is inheriting from class DB.
2016-02-10T07:55:39Z otwieracz: And I want DB initialize-instance :after to be called after (make-instance 'specific-db)
2016-02-10T07:56:07Z Shinmera: (defclass a () ()) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((a a) &key) (print "A")) (defclass b (a) ()) (make-instance 'b) => "A"
2016-02-10T07:56:29Z Shinmera: So, you're doing something wrong.
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2016-02-10T07:57:16Z otwieracz: huh!
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2016-02-10T07:58:09Z Bike: you can do compute-applicable-methods to check what's actually being called.
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2016-02-10T08:01:04Z otwieracz: Oh, kill me.
2016-02-10T08:01:14Z otwieracz: „intialize-instance” my ass
2016-02-10T08:01:37Z Shinmera: Ah, I've made that typo before.
2016-02-10T08:02:19Z otwieracz: And it's invisible.
2016-02-10T08:02:20Z otwieracz: Damn!
2016-02-10T08:02:31Z Bike: i would hope you get a warning about implicitly defining a gf
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2016-02-10T08:59:47Z hajovonta: hello
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2016-02-10T09:02:25Z flip214: XachX: in february-2016-quicklisp-dist-update-now.html, the quux link moves me to a google login page. maybe use https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/quux-hunchentoot instead?
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2016-02-10T09:44:05Z Cymew: flip214: What is quux-hunchentoot?
2016-02-10T09:46:26Z Cymew: I read the cliki description but didn't feel that much wiser.
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2016-02-10T09:49:14Z ralt: Cymew: it provides another way to handle new requests coming in
2016-02-10T09:49:36Z ralt: instead of w/e default hunchentoot does (a process per request?), it uses lparallel to create a thread per request
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2016-02-10T09:50:34Z flip214: Cymew: hunchentoot creates one pthread per incoming connection (or even request)
2016-02-10T09:50:46Z flip214: quux-hunchentoot uses a thread pool, and so is quite a bit faster.
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2016-02-10T09:55:00Z Cymew: So it's taking the thread spawing time out of the equation?
2016-02-10T09:57:05Z Cymew: Sounds like a nice tweak.
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2016-02-10T09:58:01Z ralt: Cymew: it's not taking it out, it's managing it differently
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2016-02-10T09:58:43Z ralt: (in this case, probably faster than what default hunchentoot does.)
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2016-02-10T10:20:15Z Cymew: Thanks for your clarifications guys!
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2016-02-10T13:37:15Z Shinmera: I'm trying to establish a compressed, continuous TCP stream between a server and client. Is this not possible, or am I just being completely stupid? Here's some sample code, but it only ever manages to transmit a single object. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/EG#
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2016-02-10T13:39:43Z ralt: Shinmera: why are you doing a client in the server?
2016-02-10T13:39:54Z ralt: the (receive) function should only have a socket server
2016-02-10T13:40:03Z Shinmera: because it also needs to receive the data?
2016-02-10T13:40:10Z Shinmera: this is only a sample code that is as minimal as possible
2016-02-10T13:40:24Z Shinmera: it's not meant to be useful for anything but to demonstrate the problem.
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2016-02-10T13:41:09Z ralt: Shinmera: you just need to (read) from the server socket
2016-02-10T13:41:27Z Shinmera: ...
2016-02-10T13:41:45Z Shinmera: dude, that's really not the problem here.
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2016-02-10T13:42:05Z Xach: Shinmera: i found it
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2016-02-10T13:42:08Z p_l: ralt: the network code is ok
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2016-02-10T13:42:26Z Shinmera: Xach: Oh?
2016-02-10T13:42:38Z Xach: Shinmera: gzip-stream's finish-output gray stream method calls the salza2:finish-compression method. that means it can't compress any more stuff.
2016-02-10T13:43:01Z Xach: Shinmera: for gzip data, there's a specific "i'm all done with all compressed data" magic
2016-02-10T13:43:06Z Xach: and finish-output emits that
2016-02-10T13:43:21Z Xach: I'm not sure how you could manage the buffering differently.
2016-02-10T13:43:35Z Shinmera: Ok, so I should flush the underlying stream but keep both open?
2016-02-10T13:43:45Z Xach: Shinmera: possibly, but i'm not sure.
2016-02-10T13:43:51Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll experiment a bit more.
2016-02-10T13:43:54Z Shinmera: Thanks for the hint.
2016-02-10T13:44:08Z Xach: Shinmera: the compression buffers might not have enough to send
2016-02-10T13:44:12Z _death: what would be the point of flushing the underlying stream if the gzip stream may still be buffering
2016-02-10T13:44:13Z Shinmera: Hm, what if I create a new input stream after reading an object?
2016-02-10T13:44:22Z scymtym_: maybe make one gzip stream for each object, flushing the underlying stream between objects?
2016-02-10T13:44:29Z Shinmera: Right.
2016-02-10T13:44:45Z Xach: that would be pretty wasteful, and you wouldn't be able to reuse previous object data for the sake of compression
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2016-02-10T13:46:37Z Shinmera: To give a bit more context, I'm writing an event exchange system that relays stuff over the network, so I need to keep the connections up, but event objects should be delivered as soon as possible, so buffering holding it up would be bad.
2016-02-10T13:46:51Z _death: but why does it call finish-compression when flushing? shouldn't it do something finish-compress & flush?
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2016-02-10T13:47:49Z scymtym_: Shinmera: if you care about latency more than throughput, don't forget to set the tcpnodelay flag on the sending side
2016-02-10T13:47:54Z Xach: Shinmera: are the event objects big enough where independent compression of each one is worthwhile?
2016-02-10T13:48:07Z Xach: Shinmera: or is it really a big win to get inter-object compression?
2016-02-10T13:48:23Z Shinmera: Xach: I can't make good guesses on the size of them unfortunately. They may be very small (just the type info) or very big (data payload)
2016-02-10T13:49:13Z Shinmera: scymtym_: I think usocket has that on by default.
2016-02-10T13:50:24Z Xach: Shinmera: anyway, compression typically does not align on octet binaries when it's in progress. if you want continuous compression, it would involve sending partially-filled pieces of the bitstream.
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2016-02-10T13:50:53Z Shinmera: Xach: so a padding to a certain alignment?
2016-02-10T13:51:00Z Xach: Shinmera: yes
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2016-02-10T13:51:26Z Xach: Shinmera: it may be easier to compress each object's data independently with something like salza2:compress-octet-vector.
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2016-02-10T13:52:08Z Xach: err, not exactly that, but possibly involving that.
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2016-02-10T13:57:49Z Shinmera: creating new streams for each object results in a different error (bad lenght value in non compressed block). I'm guessing it doesn't properly consume the tail or something.
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2016-02-10T14:35:25Z drmeister: Bike: Are you online?
2016-02-10T14:35:46Z drmeister: I wanted to ask you about the multiple-value-setq thing you were talking about last night
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2016-02-10T14:39:50Z moore33: Apropos of nothing, I'm a big fan of multiple value setf: (setf (values foo bar) (baz...))
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2016-02-10T14:45:13Z Shinmera: Alright, so I managed to make things work by manually consuming the footer from the tcp stream after reading an object.
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2016-02-10T15:27:31Z mishoo: hey guys, what should I prefer for websocket server — hunchensocket or clws?
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2016-02-10T15:28:25Z mishoo: I'm using hunchentoot, so hunchensocket was my first bet.  however, I *think* it creates a thread for each connection, which isn't too good for my use case
2016-02-10T15:29:10Z mishoo: so I switched to clws, but every now and then (seemingly randomly) I get a "failed: Invalid frame header" (but it does work nicely when it does work :-)
2016-02-10T15:30:05Z jackdaniel: mishoo: today someone discussed hunchentoot-quux, which creates thread-pool
2016-02-10T15:30:23Z jackdaniel: quux-hunchentoot that is
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2016-02-10T15:31:52Z mishoo: interesting.. would hunchensocket work on top of that?
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2016-02-10T15:32:19Z mishoo: still, I'd prefer clws if I can get it to work reliably...  anyone encountered the frame header error above?
2016-02-10T15:32:55Z jackdaniel: mishoo: I don't know, just recalled the conversation from today :)
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2016-02-10T15:35:54Z muyinliu: mishoo: clws seems NOT support WSS?
2016-02-10T15:36:38Z mishoo: muyinliu: that's what the readme says, but it's OK, I don't need WSS at this point
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2016-02-10T16:11:16Z mtl_: Shinmera: any chance colleen3 will be helpful for keyboard events, somehow? :P
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2016-02-10T16:14:12Z Shinmera: mtl_: Uuh, no, why?
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2016-02-10T16:15:45Z Shinmera: I mean I guess you can emit an event for each keyboard press, but I don't see why you would.
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2016-02-10T16:33:16Z mtl_: Shinmera: oh ok, just something that sprang to mind, hehe
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2016-02-10T16:51:13Z jasom: Xach: do I need to file an issue to get a new version of an existing project into quicklisp?
2016-02-10T16:51:22Z jasom: Xach: specifically parenscript in this case
2016-02-10T16:52:02Z Bike: drmeister: i am now
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2016-02-10T16:57:06Z learning: I made a quick exercise sheet to better understand sequences: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306960
2016-02-10T16:57:18Z learning: feel free to critique, annotate, etc
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2016-02-10T17:02:47Z Xach: jasom: not usually. depends on how it is fetched.
2016-02-10T17:03:09Z Xach: jasom: I get parenscript from http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/release/parenscript-latest.tgz
2016-02-10T17:03:15Z Xach: jasom: if that is bad, i can look elsewhere
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2016-02-10T17:05:28Z jasom: Xach: I don't know how to update that, I'll have to ask vladimir if he can update that
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2016-02-10T17:12:06Z drmeister: Bike - Hi.  I was thinking about what you said with multiple-value-setq.  I don't think it is the instruction that is needed here.  But there needs to be a way to inline lambda's with full ordinary lambda lists within Cleavir AST's.  That's what you were going for - right?
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2016-02-10T17:12:43Z Bike: they're two separate things, but yes, i also sketched out inlining with full lambda lists.
2016-02-10T17:13:27Z drmeister: Yes, two separate things.
2016-02-10T17:13:29Z Bike: unfortunately I don't understand how function-ast works.
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2016-02-10T17:14:19Z jasom: Xach: if you already have a script to query github for the latest release, that will work, but we should either update the project page to point to the github releases, or copy any new releases to the c-l.net project page anyway.  I'll let you know what we decide
2016-02-10T17:15:07Z Xach: jasom: i can easily grab latest github release if it comes to that.
2016-02-10T17:15:10Z drmeister: Bike: I see - since "inlining" in Cleavir means replacing a function call AST by an equivalent AST that does no call.
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2016-02-10T17:15:44Z Bike: as far as i can see that's here https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/658d746b08d8912c4880e7cbe6690ac3662333a7/Code/Cleavir/Generate-AST/convert-form.lisp#L156 but I don't understand the lambda-list.
2016-02-10T17:15:51Z drmeister: Figuring out what function-call-ast gets compiled to and what an "equivalent AST" can look like is key.
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2016-02-10T17:16:34Z Bike: theit's not that complicated. just generate a bunch of setqs for the arguments. key parsing is going to be the worst part. but e.g. i don't see where a &rest argument goes in the lambda list.
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2016-02-10T17:22:01Z Galdemore: what's the best guide to start learning lisp from? None of the syntax I'm accustomed to works
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2016-02-10T17:23:19Z learning: i find Practical Common Lisp to verbose, but the chapters on Variables and Functions would be a good place to start
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2016-02-10T17:23:56Z learning: and you will need to google about Loops because they take a while to get used to and are necessary in most programs
2016-02-10T17:24:19Z Galdemore: I assume they're not very easy? nothing like a do-while or elif?
2016-02-10T17:24:28Z learning: what languages are you already familiar with?
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2016-02-10T17:25:24Z Galdemore: c/c++/python/c#/java
2016-02-10T17:25:37Z Galdemore: all c based
2016-02-10T17:25:48Z Bike: you can in fact do (loop do ...stuff... while whatever). it's not like lisp is hard.
2016-02-10T17:25:50Z Galdemore: except maybe python, since it's scripting
2016-02-10T17:26:01Z dwchandler: Galdemore: Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-02-10T17:26:06Z learning: you can feel free to PM me for help, i've been learning lisp the last couple months so i know how frustrating it can be. the error messages are garbage and the docs are really for building a compiler and assume you already know the language
2016-02-10T17:26:27Z Galdemore: I'm not really even sure why I want to learn lisp, it's just generally fascinating
2016-02-10T17:26:33Z dwchandler: Galdemore: it's not so verbose, and it gets right to the point and covers a lot of ground
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2016-02-10T17:26:45Z Galdemore: I expressed yesterday here that I'm worried it will shoot me off course from learning C++
2016-02-10T17:26:54Z learning: you should build a real program with Lisp, that's how i knew for sure that it was worth learning
2016-02-10T17:26:59Z Bike: you can learn more than one thing, it's okay
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2016-02-10T17:27:04Z Galdemore: haha bike
2016-02-10T17:27:10Z Galdemore: you told me that last night too
2016-02-10T17:27:12Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-10T17:27:12Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: i'm trying to write a patch to extend inlining to complex lambda lists, but I don't understand function-ast (among other things). where do rest parameters go?
2016-02-10T17:27:16Z Bike: still true
2016-02-10T17:27:25Z Galdemore: I feel like I want to
2016-02-10T17:27:33Z Galdemore: use lisp and c together some how
2016-02-10T17:27:38Z Galdemore: bridge them
2016-02-10T17:27:52Z Galdemore: not sure how possible that is
2016-02-10T17:27:54Z Bike: 's what cffi is for, but it's probably not a great place to start learning either.
2016-02-10T17:27:54Z learning: its been done a lot of times
2016-02-10T17:28:08Z learning: many many people have tried that idea
2016-02-10T17:28:38Z beach: Bike: At the moment, inlining is done only when the callee has only required parameters, so there is no &rest, no &optional, etc.
2016-02-10T17:28:39Z dwchandler: Galdemore: "a lisp" has been used as a scripting language for C/C++ apps. that's one way
2016-02-10T17:29:09Z Bike: beach: i know, i just mean in a regular function-ast, which i was under the impression was used for functions regardless of inlining.
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2016-02-10T17:30:02Z Galdemore: as it stands when I play with the repl
2016-02-10T17:30:08Z Galdemore: I only know how to assign values
2016-02-10T17:30:17Z Galdemore: is learnlispthehardway.org any good?
2016-02-10T17:30:36Z shifty: how does one insert a string literal with a newline, like "thanks\n"?
2016-02-10T17:30:45Z Bike: put an actual newline in it
2016-02-10T17:30:58Z beach: Bike: Ah, I see.  Hold on...
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2016-02-10T17:31:29Z shifty: ... without making my code look ugly.
2016-02-10T17:31:55Z Bike: (format nil "string~%")?
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2016-02-10T17:32:45Z Galdemore: wait so
2016-02-10T17:32:53Z Galdemore: is everything in lisp just nested indefinitely?
2016-02-10T17:32:59Z Galdemore: like each ()
2016-02-10T17:33:01Z Bike: what does that mean?
2016-02-10T17:33:08Z Galdemore: sorry stupid words
2016-02-10T17:33:15Z Galdemore: is each () just within the next?
2016-02-10T17:33:23Z dwchandler: Galdemore: in the same sense as pretty much every other language, yes
2016-02-10T17:33:32Z Galdemore: well the syntax is just so different
2016-02-10T17:33:45Z Galdemore: if I wrote c code this way it would be ripped apart by another coder for it's design
2016-02-10T17:33:54Z Galdemore: not syntax I guess, but style
2016-02-10T17:35:28Z Bike: different strokes for different folx
2016-02-10T17:35:41Z learning: i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure C becomes the same thing while it's being compiled
2016-02-10T17:35:54Z learning: the compiler takes the raw code and turns it into an abstract syntax tree
2016-02-10T17:36:14Z Galdemore: then merging the two shouldn't be a problem
2016-02-10T17:36:15Z shifty: Bike: OK, thanks.  Not quite the answer I was hoping for, sadly reality can't always match expectations :-)
2016-02-10T17:36:53Z jasom: Galdemore: it's not really nested indefinitely
2016-02-10T17:36:59Z Bike: shifty: if you really really want, you can load something like cl-interpol that allows "string literals" like that.
2016-02-10T17:37:07Z learning: like i said before, it's been done, if you google for c and lisp you should be able to find projects where people try to combine c and lisp, sometimes trying to create a new language
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2016-02-10T17:37:34Z learning: Emacs uses lisp as a scripting language on top of C
2016-02-10T17:37:39Z jasom: Galdemore: (defun foo () (do-something) (do-something-else)) is roughly like void foo () { doSomething; doSomethingElse; }
2016-02-10T17:38:11Z Galdemore: I think the programming gods will be pleased
2016-02-10T17:38:12Z jasom: Galdemore: the level of nesting is the same (though in either language you would get shot for putting all that one one line
2016-02-10T17:38:42Z jasom: oh and s/doSomething/doSomething()/
2016-02-10T17:38:59Z Galdemore: so, what is an example of a complex graphical lisp program?
2016-02-10T17:39:20Z Galdemore: maybe a game or something that we commonly use? not necessarily popular but just big
2016-02-10T17:39:21Z learning: for graphics it seems like you basically are just calling C code from lisp
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2016-02-10T17:40:19Z Xach: Galdemore: piano
2016-02-10T17:40:30Z learning: Jak and Taxter
2016-02-10T17:40:36Z learning: Jak and Daxter***
2016-02-10T17:40:44Z Galdemore: no way
2016-02-10T17:40:57Z Xach: That was written in a custom lisp language.
2016-02-10T17:41:15Z Galdemore: nice
2016-02-10T17:41:26Z jasom: That was in GOAL, not common lisp; abuse was also a custom lisp, but it was fairly close to a subset of common lisp
2016-02-10T17:41:26Z Galdemore: I guess I shouldn't compare what is popular with what is possible
2016-02-10T17:41:41Z learning: right, sorry, should have clarified that it wasn't common lisp
2016-02-10T17:41:45Z Galdemore: I guess learning clisp will lead me to these paths
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2016-02-10T17:42:23Z Xach: clisp is an implementation of common lisp.
2016-02-10T17:42:32Z Xach: like learning gcc rather than c
2016-02-10T17:42:34Z beach: Bike: Following the &rest lambda-list keyword is a lexical-ast.
2016-02-10T17:42:57Z Bike: beach: what i meant is, the explanation of function-ast indicates that there is no &rest. https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/f288bd8e45a4e9604aff02e00a5b481c41dabfb5/Code/Cleavir/Abstract-syntax-tree/general-purpose-asts.lisp#L269
2016-02-10T17:43:02Z jasom: Galdemore: for a screenshot of piano, see here: http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/piano.html
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2016-02-10T17:43:38Z Bike: or &aux, while i'm at it. and i think there's a typo around l305 I don't understand...
2016-02-10T17:44:17Z beach: I think that is an omission.  There is a &rest in there.
2016-02-10T17:44:29Z beach: But no &aux.
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2016-02-10T17:48:38Z beach: Bike "oi" refers to the optional parameters o1 ... om.
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2016-02-10T17:49:20Z drmeister: I had to run catch a train. I'm back for a bit.
2016-02-10T17:49:23Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2016-02-10T17:49:35Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2016-02-10T17:49:44Z beach: I need to run very soon.  Dinner is imminent.
2016-02-10T17:49:58Z Bike: oh, i see, it says that if any optional-p is false you're not allowed to check key-ps, you just have to know they're false.
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2016-02-10T17:51:52Z beach: shifty: Use #.(format nil "Hello~%there")
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2016-02-10T17:53:10Z beach: Bike: Right.
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2016-02-10T17:53:39Z beach: But I don't think anything bad happens to you right now if you test those key-ps anyway.
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2016-02-10T17:53:46Z beach: It might in the future though.
2016-02-10T17:53:53Z moore33: learning: GOAL wasn't Common Lisp, but it was implemented in Common Lisp.
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2016-02-10T17:55:38Z Bike: well, since i was looking at inlining, it would be setting them
2016-02-10T17:55:41Z beach: jasom: I think Galdemore fainted from looking at that screenshot.
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2016-02-10T17:56:18Z beach: Bike: That should not be a problem.
2016-02-10T17:56:25Z Bike: yeah.
2016-02-10T17:57:05Z Bike: the worst part is going to be looking through keys, but i can deal
2016-02-10T17:57:10Z beach: A dead-code elimination pass would be required at some point.
2016-02-10T17:57:40Z moore33: learning: Also, I don't really get your "for graphics it seems like you basically are just calling C code from lisp" comment. The situation is the same in every other language, including C.
2016-02-10T17:57:40Z Bike: for what?
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2016-02-10T17:58:11Z beach: Bike: If you set some key-p, then the code testing it in the function body will no longer be needed.
2016-02-10T17:58:31Z Bike: I guess., yeah.
2016-02-10T17:59:35Z beach: But that's a general optimization that needs to be implemented anyway, so no need to worry about it for inlining.
2016-02-10T17:59:40Z learning: yes moore33 but he mentioned using C before and mixing lisp and C, so i thought it was relevent information to him
2016-02-10T18:00:07Z moore33: learning: Ok, I think I understand.
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2016-02-10T18:00:29Z beach: Dinner!  I might check in briefly later.
2016-02-10T18:00:35Z moore33: Ciao
2016-02-10T18:00:50Z moore33: beach: Bon appetit!
2016-02-10T18:01:02Z beach: Merci!
2016-02-10T18:02:28Z moore33: bbl
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2016-02-10T18:37:21Z mood: mishoo: For websockets you could also use websocket-driver: https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver
2016-02-10T18:37:28Z Xach: warweasle: what's the latest with clinch?
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2016-02-10T18:41:16Z shifty: beach: #.(format...) is perfect - many thanks.
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2016-02-10T18:41:42Z warweasle: Xach: I think everything clinch 0.5 depends on is in quicklisp now. Presently, I think you have the older version, right?
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2016-02-10T18:42:52Z mishoo: mood: yep, thanks, will try that as well
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2016-02-10T18:46:03Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a way to check or do you know if you are using branch quicklisp or master?
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2016-02-10T18:52:43Z warweasle: Xach: What that your question or were you curious about how much I've done with clinch?
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2016-02-10T18:56:14Z jasom: mishoo: for what it's worth, mongrel2 can handle de-framing of websockets and has lisp bindings (though they aren't currently in quicklisp)
2016-02-10T18:56:51Z jasom should add websocket output support to the mongrel2 lisp bindings
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2016-02-10T19:00:02Z beach: shifty: In things like docstrings, you can even indent the additional lines by using ~@ at the end of a line.
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2016-02-10T19:02:20Z Galdemore: what's the appeal of emacs any more
2016-02-10T19:03:03Z phoe_krk: it's working for what it's used to
2016-02-10T19:03:16Z Galdemore: ?_?
2016-02-10T19:04:12Z phoe_krk: used for*
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2016-02-10T19:04:16Z phoe_krk: blah
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2016-02-10T19:04:22Z phoe_krk: my English isn't working
2016-02-10T19:04:24Z dlowe: Maybe you should ask #emacs
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2016-02-10T19:05:31Z dlowe: Here the appeal is that it has excellent facilities for interacting with running lisp images
2016-02-10T19:06:03Z phoe_krk: ^
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2016-02-10T19:09:25Z myrkraverk: Hmm, is there an ini style config file parser for Lisp?
2016-02-10T19:09:38Z myrkraverk: Maybe I should just ask quicklisp?
2016-02-10T19:09:54Z dlowe: I think the answer is yes, and it's in quicklisp
2016-02-10T19:10:27Z myrkraverk: Hmm, (ql:system-apropos "ini" ) doesn't return anything immediately obvious.
2016-02-10T19:10:41Z White_Flame: I tend to use s-expressions for init files
2016-02-10T19:10:52Z dlowe: sure, but you might want to read someone else's init file
2016-02-10T19:10:56Z White_Flame: yep
2016-02-10T19:11:41Z myrkraverk: I'm not sure I'll retain the same ini file format, but I am refactoring from $language into Lisp.
2016-02-10T19:11:50Z myrkraverk: So maybe I'll migrate to s-expressions.
2016-02-10T19:12:27Z dlowe: py-configparser
2016-02-10T19:12:33Z dlowe: is what you're looking for
2016-02-10T19:12:43Z myrkraverk: Ok, thanks.
2016-02-10T19:12:45Z dlowe: (man, that's a terrible name)
2016-02-10T19:12:49Z myrkraverk: Yes it is.
2016-02-10T19:13:06Z dlowe: so named because it's a translation of the python module
2016-02-10T19:13:17Z dim: myrkraverk: py-configparser
2016-02-10T19:13:28Z dim: oh I'm late to the party, sorry
2016-02-10T19:13:33Z myrkraverk: np c;
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2016-02-10T19:31:15Z Galdemore: what do you guys think the future of lisp is
2016-02-10T19:31:30Z phoe_krk: Galdemore: it's lisp
2016-02-10T19:31:50Z Galdemore: do you think it will become more widely used again?
2016-02-10T19:32:23Z phoe_krk: I don't know
2016-02-10T19:32:38Z phoe_krk: I find it already used wide
2016-02-10T19:32:51Z phoe_krk: especially when people don't realize they're actually doing Lisp
2016-02-10T19:33:05Z contrapunctus: IIRC clojure is a lisp and is kind of popular.
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2016-02-10T19:33:56Z ieure: Clojure is a fairly pragmatic Lisp.
2016-02-10T19:34:12Z ieure: I'm more familiar with it than CL or Scheme
2016-02-10T19:34:45Z ieure: Leiningen is super nice and being able to leverage all the library code that exists for Java is pretty good.
2016-02-10T19:35:17Z phoe_krk: The equivalent of Lisp CFFI, huh?
2016-02-10T19:35:56Z dlowe: If people want to talk at length about lisps other than Common Lisp, that's great, but it should probably be done in ##lisp.
2016-02-10T19:36:04Z Galdemore: is scheme ideal over clisp for most?
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2016-02-10T19:36:47Z Galdemore: aha
2016-02-10T19:36:55Z Galdemore: this is a clisp chat
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2016-02-10T19:38:30Z p_l: *common lisp
2016-02-10T19:38:44Z p_l: yes, I'm pedantic ;-)
2016-02-10T19:40:47Z Galdemore: so the "t" stands for true right?
2016-02-10T19:40:54Z myrkraverk: I first thought clisp meant the implementation.
2016-02-10T19:41:01Z phoe_krk: Galdemore: t
2016-02-10T19:41:03Z dlowe: in hindsight, it was really rude for them to name it that.
2016-02-10T19:41:05Z myrkraverk: so yeah, *common lisp it is.
2016-02-10T19:41:34Z dlowe: I prefer common lisp, but I hear Racket is also very nice.
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2016-02-10T19:41:43Z myrkraverk: racket is nice.
2016-02-10T19:44:07Z pavelpenev: Galdemore: I've deen doing common lisp for a few years now and it's been steadily improving on pretty much all fronts. I can only assume it will continue at least into the near future, and possibly until keyboard programming becomes obsolete and is replaced with AI and Brain-computer interfaces.
2016-02-10T19:45:05Z axion: pavelpenev: wow i havent seen you in years
2016-02-10T19:45:35Z axion: your lisp web book is still being recommended by me :)
2016-02-10T19:46:26Z pavelpenev: axion: Haven't used IRC in a while, although I've lurked occationally. Work got in the way of Lisp for a while, but i'm currently funemployed and spending time with lisp again
2016-02-10T19:46:50Z pavelpenev: axion: the old book is probably outdated at this point. Working on a new one right now. Still very early stages.
2016-02-10T19:47:13Z pavelpenev: axion: I should probably unpublish it or something.
2016-02-10T19:47:18Z axion: pavelpenev: regardless, my web site has been running for a few years with most of it learned from that book
2016-02-10T19:47:37Z jasom: I should write a similar book after my experiences with clack
2016-02-10T19:47:37Z pavelpenev: axion: glad to hear somebody found it useful :)
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2016-02-10T19:48:02Z pavelpenev: jasom: I wholeheartedly welcome competition.
2016-02-10T19:48:42Z axion: that was pretty much when i first started lisp in 2009-2010 so the code is ugly, and i just havent been interested in webdev lately to make it any better
2016-02-10T19:49:13Z p_l: from my personal And biased experience scheme is very fragmented
2016-02-10T19:50:12Z jasom: It seems to me that lisp has gotten less fragmented over the past decade, though there is a lot of sbcl-specific code out there.
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2016-02-10T19:50:55Z jasom: It used to be I would stumble upon "only works on {clisp,lispworks,franz,cmucl}" all the time, and that is less common these days
2016-02-10T19:51:14Z pavelpenev: axion: Well, after two and a half years of "professional" Django, I've seen how the real web devs do it and wasn't too impressed :)
2016-02-10T19:51:43Z axion: pavelpenev: agreed. i actually came from django, and even lower level cherrypy webdev before i moved to lisp back then
2016-02-10T19:51:47Z axion: i was not impressed
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2016-02-10T19:53:18Z pavelpenev: axion: Not to go too ot, but I've seen some pretty horrid legacy Django at this point and I was missing slime while dealing with it soo much.
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2016-02-10T19:53:52Z axion: i havent done any lisp webdev in about as long since i've seen you active, which says a lot
2016-02-10T19:54:10Z axion: these days i'm more interested in gamedev though. been working on a game for the last year
2016-02-10T19:54:28Z pavelpenev: axion: me neither. I'm so glad to be back.
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2016-02-10T20:11:51Z drmeister: Bike: I'm back - we are running NMR experiments up at Fox Chase Cancer center - I've been traveling back and forth.
2016-02-10T20:12:41Z oleo: and ?
2016-02-10T20:12:44Z oleo: who wins ?
2016-02-10T20:13:02Z drmeister: Bike - did I miss anything about inlining?
2016-02-10T20:14:02Z jasom: drmeister: funny story, back when I wanted to be a physicist, my academic advisor was Proffessor Albert Overhauser.  One of the smarter people I've ever met.
2016-02-10T20:14:24Z drmeister: Ah yes, the nuclear Overhauser effect.
2016-02-10T20:14:26Z jasom: he could actually spell professor right too
2016-02-10T20:15:21Z drmeister: We are running a ROESY rather than a NOESY experiment because our molecules are bit too big.
2016-02-10T20:16:47Z jasom: polymers?
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2016-02-10T20:27:24Z jasom: no, you were working with hydrogen cross-linked proteins or something IIRC
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2016-02-10T21:04:53Z emaczen: Has anyone successfully released an OSX app using CCL?
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2016-02-10T21:05:38Z jasom: emaczen: I did one with sbcl
2016-02-10T21:06:48Z emaczen: jasom: Can you explain and link it to me
2016-02-10T21:07:00Z jasom: hmm, I don't know if I still have the build scripts...
2016-02-10T21:07:09Z emaczen: jasom: Is it on the app store still?
2016-02-10T21:07:15Z jasom: oh, never on the app store
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2016-02-10T21:07:31Z jasom: just made a .dmg with the .app inside
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2016-02-10T21:08:26Z emaczen: CCL has buildscript examples, but I've never definitely heard that it passed appstore rules etc...
2016-02-10T21:08:37Z emaczen: #ccl is also pretty empty
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2016-02-10T21:08:56Z p_l: emaczen: CCL IDE passed MAS
2016-02-10T21:09:01Z emaczen: pjb: Did you ever try posting your hangman app?
2016-02-10T21:09:22Z emaczen: p_l: good point.
2016-02-10T21:09:53Z Fade: did apple lift the restriction on interpreters and compilers in the store?
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2016-02-10T21:11:19Z emaczen: How did the CCL IDE pass this restriction?
2016-02-10T21:11:24Z jasom: Fade: they did for iOS, you can now have an interpreter (but not a compiler, as they enforce W^NX)
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2016-02-10T21:11:43Z emaczen: jasom: W^NX?
2016-02-10T21:11:46Z p_l: Fade: not on iOS afaik, at least not fully
2016-02-10T21:11:49Z jasom: and I don't think they ever had it for OS X
2016-02-10T21:12:00Z p_l: emaczen: W^X is OpenBSD name for non-executable data
2016-02-10T21:12:44Z jasom: emaczen: you can't dynamically create executable memory on iOS, which makes it impossible to have a runtime compiler
2016-02-10T21:13:36Z jasom: and yes it should have been W^X; ^ is xor in C, so you can't have both Write and eXecute
2016-02-10T21:13:37Z joshe: you can't allocate RW pages and then remap them as RX?
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2016-02-10T21:13:53Z emaczen: Is CCL a runtime compiler?
2016-02-10T21:14:04Z p_l: emaczen: yes
2016-02-10T21:14:05Z jasom: joshe: apps are not given permission to do that
2016-02-10T21:14:10Z Bicyclidine: it has cl:compile, after all
2016-02-10T21:14:23Z jasom: Bicyclidine: cl:compile isn't required to compile
2016-02-10T21:14:50Z jasom: it can just do minimal compilation; also it could compile to bytecode, and bytcode intepreting doesn't require execute bits
2016-02-10T21:14:56Z joshe: interesting
2016-02-10T21:15:00Z p_l: the question is, does CCL need to write executable data or not to operate, which I do not know. SBCL *does* require that even with evaluator
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2016-02-10T21:15:24Z Bicyclidine: i know, i'm just saying a CL runtime has to have something called a compiler, even if it's not in the sense that requires write execute perms
2016-02-10T21:15:26Z jasom: ecl doesn't require it, so should be doable on iOS
2016-02-10T21:15:49Z jasom: Bicyclidine: when I said "runtime compiler" I mean "runtime compiler to native code"
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2016-02-10T21:16:08Z jasom: I apologize for the confusion
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2016-02-10T21:16:23Z Bicyclidine: no big
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2016-02-10T21:17:50Z dlowe: bytecode is going to be slower and (more importantly) use more battery, though
2016-02-10T21:18:03Z p_l: afaik ECL is doable on iOS, and wukix I think uses similar approach
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2016-02-10T21:18:55Z learning: is it possible to have a let that does not see variables outside of its scope
2016-02-10T21:19:37Z phoe_krk: does not see?
2016-02-10T21:19:44Z phoe_krk: what do you mean?
2016-02-10T21:19:56Z phoe_krk: and wouldn't it be an unknown variable error?
2016-02-10T21:20:33Z Bicyclidine: you can't make a new scope with only the global as its parent arbitrarily. just don't reference outer scopes.
2016-02-10T21:20:43Z phoe_krk: and don't you mean using gensym?
2016-02-10T21:22:00Z phoe_krk: (let ((x 5)) (let ((x (gensym))) (setf x 10) x) x) => 5
2016-02-10T21:22:25Z Bicyclidine: gensym does nothing there.
2016-02-10T21:23:32Z Bicyclidine: that's just shadowing a binding.
2016-02-10T21:25:36Z dlowe: I think learning wants an unknown variable if one is referenced that isn't declared inside the let
2016-02-10T21:25:42Z dlowe: an unknown variable error
2016-02-10T21:25:48Z Bicyclidine: yes, and there is no way to do that.
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2016-02-10T21:26:37Z dlowe: you can actually make a new scope arbitrarily, but it will still have access to globals
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2016-02-10T21:27:01Z emaczen: Does IOS allow for JIT compilation (is that what was meant by "runtime compilation")
2016-02-10T21:27:04Z Bicyclidine: how?
2016-02-10T21:27:38Z dlowe: EVAL evaluates its arguments in the null lexical environment
2016-02-10T21:27:45Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: what's not allowed on iOS is having memory that you write to and then execute. which pretty much rules out JIT compilation if you want to write and then execute machine code.
2016-02-10T21:27:53Z Bicyclidine: that's... i guess that's one way to do it, yeah.
2016-02-10T21:32:43Z DeadTrickster: hey, does anyone know good server-side oauth lib?
2016-02-10T21:33:03Z learning: basically lets say you have a function definition  (defun foo () (let ((x)) (let ((y))....
2016-02-10T21:33:16Z learning: is it possible to have the let scope that declares why not know about x
2016-02-10T21:33:28Z learning: declares Y i mean
2016-02-10T21:33:41Z Bicyclidine: no. like dlowe said, you can do something like (let ((x nil)) (eval '(let ((y nil)) ...))) though.
2016-02-10T21:33:44Z Bicyclidine: Why do you want to do this?
2016-02-10T21:34:06Z dlowe: just because you can do something, though, doesn't mean you should :p
2016-02-10T21:34:20Z learning: obviously not necessarly using the let keyword. because it would make code easier to read, more maintainable since you could know for sure that you dont have to worry about previously declared variables. only whats in the scope.
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2016-02-10T21:34:48Z White_Flame: you don't have to worry in the first place
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2016-02-10T21:35:08Z White_Flame: the only thing to worry about is accidentally binding special variables, and that's what *earmuff* notation is for, to make that obvious
2016-02-10T21:35:23Z learning: sure, if i'm reading what's going on in y, i have to keep x in my head because it might be used in y
2016-02-10T21:35:42Z dlowe: admittedly, earmuff notation is a bit silly, but it does work okay.
2016-02-10T21:35:44Z White_Flame: it's a cache hit
2016-02-10T21:36:00Z White_Flame: and if x is never referenced, it can freely fall out of mental cache
2016-02-10T21:36:30Z Bicyclidine: usually i read code in the inverse fashion. Oh, here's a reference to "x". where's that bound? oh, here.
2016-02-10T21:36:48Z mood: If you actually have to worry about that, perhaps the function should be split up further?
2016-02-10T21:36:52Z White_Flame: I'm not immediately recalling any programming languages that do hiding in that fashion
2016-02-10T21:37:12Z White_Flame: ie, hiding variables that are in the same lexical scope
2016-02-10T21:37:40Z learning: i think its a valid idea to be able to say "only things declared here exist here"
2016-02-10T21:37:57Z White_Flame: the parent scope is "here"
2016-02-10T21:38:20Z learning: but yes i havent heard of a language that does that either, it was brought up as an idea by a c/c++ programmer
2016-02-10T21:38:31Z White_Flame: (progn (let ((x 2)) .. x exists here ..)  (let ((y 3)) .. y exists here, x does not))
2016-02-10T21:38:44Z learning: you're playing semantics
2016-02-10T21:38:45Z Bicyclidine: If you have (let ((x ...)) (let ((y ...)) ...)) then either the body of the inner let references x, or the binding of y uses the value of x, and either one is pretty easy reading for me.
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2016-02-10T21:38:51Z learning: you know what i mean
2016-02-10T21:39:09Z White_Flame: C++ introduced local variables scoped to braces, so that's the transliteration of that C++-ism
2016-02-10T21:39:30Z White_Flame: (at least, IIRC)
2016-02-10T21:39:45Z oGMo: learning: i think you're confusing scope with extent
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2016-02-10T21:41:15Z learning: "Scope (a spatial property): Where can the binding be accessed?"   no?
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2016-02-10T21:41:47Z oGMo: yes, which is much different than "exists"
2016-02-10T21:41:50Z White_Flame: lexical scope is a spatial property.  dynamic scope isn't a spatial property.  (for various definitions of 'spatial')
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2016-02-10T21:42:52Z White_Flame: googling, that definition comes from a JavaScript page, so those are really slanted for that language
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2016-02-10T21:43:04Z oGMo: doubtless
2016-02-10T21:43:12Z learning: really doesn't matter though
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2016-02-10T21:43:18Z oGMo: but "where can the binding be accessed" is relatively accurate
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2016-02-10T21:43:34Z White_Flame: yes
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2016-02-10T21:46:14Z learning: i could do this with eval, but is using eval considered bad form?
2016-02-10T21:46:22Z White_Flame: generally, yes
2016-02-10T21:46:25Z Bicyclidine: If you have (let ((x ...)) (let ((y (foo x))) ...)), and the body doesn't reference x, you can rewrite as (let ((y (let ((x ...)) (foo x)))) ...). So you'd only need this if you have multiple bindings using x, or more code in the body than the y let.
2016-02-10T21:46:36Z White_Flame: the only time you should be using eval is when you're receiving new code at runtime
2016-02-10T21:47:04Z learning: the idea is it would be in a long function definition
2016-02-10T21:47:16Z oGMo wonders why you are trying to do this at all; it's not particularly idiomatic and doesn't sound particularly useful
2016-02-10T21:47:29Z learning: and maybe there are things before and after y, and they need to occur before and after y
2016-02-10T21:47:41Z Bicyclidine: that's the second thing i said, yeah.
2016-02-10T21:47:47Z White_Flame: I've written plenty of long function definitions.  Keeping your LET scopes as small as necessary helps to organize what's going on where
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2016-02-10T21:48:22Z White_Flame: but if your function body is long, then reading it is always going to be more difficult than if you split it up
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2016-02-10T21:48:26Z Bicyclidine: So not having something to do this could be considered very mildly suboptimal in those few cases.
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2016-02-10T21:48:54Z White_Flame: LET bodies show explicitly (especially with full-paren-body highlighting in an editor) where that variable applies
2016-02-10T21:49:11Z learning: i think in a large codebase over a long period of time it would be very useful
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2016-02-10T21:49:18Z Bicyclidine: but adding it is nontrivial. Like, say you have (defun foo (z) (let ((x ...)) (let ((y ...x...)) ...z...))). Now you want you keep x out of the inner scope, but keep z.
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2016-02-10T21:49:28Z White_Flame: I think you should work with some large codebases over long periods of time before making that determination :-P
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2016-02-10T21:49:44Z learning: why are you assuming I haven't?
2016-02-10T21:50:06Z Bicyclidine: well, because you're early on learning lisp at the moment?
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2016-02-10T21:50:25Z White_Flame: well, your handle for one, and your questions for another.  However, feel free to add "in Lisp" to the above to make it more specific.
2016-02-10T21:50:38Z Bicyclidine: which reminds me, the other thing you can do is make the inner let a function call.
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2016-02-10T21:50:49Z learning: that's pretty silly, i've been programming for 8 years
2016-02-10T21:50:59Z Shinmera: 8 years ain't that long
2016-02-10T21:51:13Z Bicyclidine: change (let ((y ...x...)) ...) into (foo x) where that has an appropriate definition. Shazam, lexical scopes gone.
2016-02-10T21:51:16Z learning: no its not, but its long enough to have spent a significant amount of time with large code bases
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2016-02-10T21:51:43Z Bicyclidine: And since we love having lots of little functions, that's the usual thing to do.
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2016-02-10T21:51:52Z learning: that adds another layer of complexity
2016-02-10T21:51:59Z learning: which is the opposite of the goal
2016-02-10T21:52:04Z Bicyclidine: So does having to remember another special operator, yo.
2016-02-10T21:52:07Z Shinmera: learning: in my experience I keep on being wrong about things I think irregardless of how much I've been programming.
2016-02-10T21:52:08Z White_Flame: that reduces the complexity of reading the function body...
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2016-02-10T21:52:36Z learning: shinmera the point was that we shouldn't make assumptions about others the way white_flame did
2016-02-10T21:52:41Z learning: ASS-U-ME
2016-02-10T21:52:47Z White_Flame: either you deal with all the complexity at once, or you break it into sub-APIs and recall those
2016-02-10T21:52:57Z Shinmera: learning: You can only ever assume in life.
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2016-02-10T21:53:37Z White_Flame: learning: if you haven't done large codebases in Lisp, you still aren't familiar with styles that manage complexity
2016-02-10T21:53:44Z dlowe: learning: lisp rewards a more bottom-up style of language extension that lends itself to smaller functions
2016-02-10T21:54:00Z learning: that's irrelevent
2016-02-10T21:54:01Z White_Flame: tricks from other languages may or may not apply, because Lisp has its own set of tools
2016-02-10T21:54:05Z learning: im reading parenscript right now
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2016-02-10T21:54:34Z learning: this isnt a trick from another language
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2016-02-10T21:54:51Z White_Flame: right, but I think it might be an idea focused on dealing with problems in other languages that you might not hit in Lisp in the first place
2016-02-10T21:54:53Z dlowe: suit yourself
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2016-02-10T21:55:41Z White_Flame: in any case, I believe we all understand your idea, but don't really see the need or value of scope truncation like that
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2016-02-10T21:55:56Z learning: that's a silly assumption, when you're reading code, like i'm doing right now, you have to keep a bunch of symbols in your head and the more you can reduce that the better. that is language independent.
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2016-02-10T21:56:11Z White_Flame: reduction is by taking them out of the lexical body
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2016-02-10T21:57:00Z learning: taking 3 lines and putting them into a function that is never used elsewhere doesn't take away complexity
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2016-02-10T21:57:19Z White_Flame: even if you have a truncation operator, that's another thing that's cluttering up your code and that you have to parse.  You still are keeping track of everything outside that truncation, because the truncated scope is going to end and you're going to have to remember which things are now in view again
2016-02-10T21:57:27Z learning: i dont know why you are so opposed to an idea
2016-02-10T21:57:36Z learning: lisp is supposed to be a testbed for playing around with ideas right
2016-02-10T21:57:38Z Shinmera: neither do we.
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2016-02-10T21:57:52Z learning: not saying lisp doesn't need this idea just because you've never heard of it before
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2016-02-10T21:58:19Z White_Flame: I've worked in very limited low-level and hacked together domain specific languages that are very weak
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2016-02-10T21:58:28Z White_Flame: ie, don't even nest scopes
2016-02-10T21:58:39Z mood: Moving something into a small, separate function can actually reduce complexity. If the function does something well-defined, you can give it a descriptive name and then you don't have to think about *how* it does that anymore
2016-02-10T21:58:45Z Galdemore: some one work on a text editor that lists every thing in scope in real time as you code
2016-02-10T21:58:49Z Bicyclidine: because at this point we're talking about dealing with a mental problem that's a thousandth as important an issue as most things we deal with every day, so we talk about it ad nauseum because it's really easy to construct an opinion and we love talking.
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2016-02-10T22:00:39Z kami: Good evening.
2016-02-10T22:01:37Z White_Flame: konnichiwa, kami-sama
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2016-02-10T22:02:48Z kami: I'm reading AMOP chapter 4 and in section 4.1.2 there is an example for specialized generic-function-class and method-class
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2016-02-10T22:04:27Z kami: where a GF apply-method is specialised to the previously declared method-class
2016-02-10T22:04:58Z kami: in SBCL, I don't find a GF apply-method
2016-02-10T22:05:13Z kami: is there an equivalent which I could specialize?
2016-02-10T22:05:39Z kami: or does anybody know of a sample which I can study?
2016-02-10T22:06:46Z pavelpenev: learning: you can use flet to define a small one-off function, that might be the best way to get what you want
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2016-02-10T22:08:11Z kami: I know that Closette is not CLOS. But expect PCL to have something similar.
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2016-02-10T22:08:33Z pavelpenev: learning: I don't do it often, but unless you go crazy with it, it might actually produce cleaner code. But I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with idiomatic Lisp code first.
2016-02-10T22:09:02Z kami: This is the example in AMOP: http://tinyurl.com/jn5qub3
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2016-02-10T22:13:03Z Galdemore: should I use SBCL?
2016-02-10T22:14:10Z White_Flame: sure, it's stable, fast, and has a lot of users
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2016-02-10T22:17:23Z Xof: kami: in the full MOP, I would probably do that by specializing the discriminating function, and maybe also the method-lambda creation
2016-02-10T22:17:34Z Xof: kami: it depends a little bit what you really want to do
2016-02-10T22:18:37Z kami: Xof: I'm just experimenting. I guess what I want to achieve is to have a :method-class with some slots in which I will store (meta-) attributes about the method
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2016-02-10T22:19:06Z Xof: you could do the method-call counting with a method combination, no need to do anything MOP-like
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2016-02-10T22:19:48Z kami: Xof: yes, but I would like to explore the case with additional method slots
2016-02-10T22:20:04Z Xof: yes, that's what I mean
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2016-02-10T22:20:21Z Xof: since the method combination has explicit method objects in it, you can do arbitrary other things to those methods
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2016-02-10T22:20:46Z Xof: you could also specialize compute-effective-method
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2016-02-10T22:21:04Z Xof: (which if you read a bit further on in AMOP is what apply-method is replaced by
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2016-02-10T22:21:32Z kami: Xof: OK. I will read up on that. Maybe I should just finish AMOP before trying out things (outside Closette).
2016-02-10T22:21:35Z kami: Xof: thank you.
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2016-02-11T01:43:33Z fewdea: I just found out about trivial-dump-core. It's pretty neat. The idea of compiling my project to a binary fascinates me. But. My project uses hunchentoot, which is multithreaded, and you can't dump a multithreaded image. I can compile it to a binary, but when I run it, it closes immediately and doesn't hold the web server open like it does when I start in REPL. Any ideas on how I can keep it running? or am I struck running this thing fr
2016-02-11T01:43:33Z fewdea: om REPL in a screen session?
2016-02-11T01:47:29Z Zhivago: Dump the image prior to starting it.
2016-02-11T01:48:07Z Zhivago: I wouldn't try to use dumping images as a replacement for persistence.
2016-02-11T01:50:21Z fewdea: oh, that's interesting. I hadn't considered that. That would take care of the multi-threaded problem. I guess my end goal is to have an init script that will start at runlevel 5 or something and off it goes
2016-02-11T01:50:53Z Zhivago: Well, that should be doable -- probably you need to tell it to wait for the hunchentoot to exit.
2016-02-11T01:51:41Z Zhivago: Although I'd be more inclined toward running it in screen (even if via an init script) so that you can talk to the repl if anything interesting happens.
2016-02-11T01:52:04Z fewdea: yes, that would for sure be a requirement, seeing inside the beast if needed
2016-02-11T01:52:24Z Xach_: fewdea: what you normally do is load everything, dump an executable, and then have it call an initialization function when it resumes.
2016-02-11T01:52:55Z Xach_: fewdea: you do not dump when things are started and running.
2016-02-11T01:52:55Z fewdea: so maybe i'm not "stuck" running in a screen, rather i "get" to run in screen
2016-02-11T01:53:18Z Xach_: I have been adding a --swank-port to my executables and connecting that way.
2016-02-11T01:54:23Z fewdea: what does that enable you to do? i'm not familiar with swank. all I know is slime uses it for something
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2016-02-11T01:57:38Z fewdea: oh, I see, it's a bit of a back door to a REPL
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2016-02-11T02:07:14Z IAmRasputin: fewdea: I'm not sure if "back door" is the way I'd describe it.  In my understanding, swank is just a server running a lisp REPL, and slime/slimv connects to it the same way it would connect to a server on another machine.
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2016-02-11T02:40:05Z lisp796: Has anyone else wanted to customize the way the reader interns?
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2016-02-11T02:41:44Z Xach_: lisp796: sometimes.
2016-02-11T02:43:47Z lisp796: I made a patch that lets you control interning, and I find it extremely useful, but I don't want to live only in my own patches
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2016-02-11T02:47:09Z lisp796: There is already quite a number of *read-____*
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2016-02-11T02:52:33Z lisp796: Perhaps there is some other way, but packages are rather heavy and cantankerous
2016-02-11T02:54:03Z lisp796: Also I note sbcl & ccl reader seem to have a common ancestry?
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2016-02-11T03:03:46Z clintm: lisp796: that's how I understand it, but I'm no expert.
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2016-02-11T03:10:09Z lisp796: clintm: thanks, I have some minor interest in code archeology
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2016-02-11T03:19:38Z Opodeldoc_: Code archeology should be a field. Invalidate patents with a leather bullwhip.
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2016-02-11T03:27:33Z learning: i have only a shallow knowledge of software patents but from what i understand it's basically just patenting flow charts? seems ridiculous
2016-02-11T03:29:12Z Bike: you can do programming history, though it's hard to get paid for it.
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2016-02-11T04:05:49Z muyinliu: mishoo: how about [websocket-driver](https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver)?
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2016-02-11T04:20:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-11T04:21:51Z Tiferet: Hello
2016-02-11T04:22:06Z beach: Hello Tiferet.
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2016-02-11T04:22:41Z Tiferet: hi beach :)
2016-02-11T04:23:15Z Tiferet: I'm that guy working through the SICP if you recall...
2016-02-11T04:23:44Z beach: Me?  My memory is not so good, and there is more than one person doing that.
2016-02-11T04:24:20Z beach: But I have access to the #lisp logs.
2016-02-11T04:24:34Z beach: So, yeah, Ackermann's function.
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2016-02-11T04:25:11Z Tiferet: woops
2016-02-11T04:25:28Z pillton: G'day beach.
2016-02-11T04:26:18Z Tiferet: beach: so I feel like I understand recursion a great deal more than the last time we spoke
2016-02-11T04:26:33Z Tiferet: beach: now I'm having difficulty with iteration lol -_-
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2016-02-11T04:28:44Z Tiferet: beach: I keep hitting ctrl-c - probably not a good idea in irssi
2016-02-11T04:29:15Z Tiferet: beach: do you have a second to look at a 6-line, totally common function?
2016-02-11T04:29:34Z beach: So this is too late then: http://metamodular.com/intro-programming.pdf
2016-02-11T04:30:05Z beach: It's a chapter from a book I am working on, and that particular chapter is in the part that explains recursion.
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2016-02-11T04:30:32Z beach: Tiferet: You can submit your request to everyone here.  Not just to me personally.  I might vanish at any time.
2016-02-11T04:30:33Z Tiferet: beach: oh cool!
2016-02-11T04:31:05Z Tiferet: beach: looks a tiny bit like the SICP but in CL!
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2016-02-11T04:31:23Z Bike: hard mode: teach recursion in terms of kleene's theorems
2016-02-11T04:31:36Z Tiferet: okay, here's my question
2016-02-11T04:31:40Z beach: Bike: I'll let you write that book. :)
2016-02-11T04:31:44Z Zhivago: The difference between recursion and iteration is backtracking.
2016-02-11T04:31:50Z beach: minion: Please tell Tiferet about lisppaste.
2016-02-11T04:31:50Z minion: Tiferet: look at lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
2016-02-11T04:31:51Z Bike: Programming The Very Hard Way
2016-02-11T04:31:56Z Zhivago: If you understand that, everything else is easy. :)
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2016-02-11T04:32:42Z Tiferet: minion: the channel dropdown on that site includes "blank" and "None"
2016-02-11T04:32:43Z minion: the channel dropdown on that site includes "blank" and "None": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/the%20channel%20dropdown%20on%20that%20site%20includes%20\"blank\"%20and%20\"None\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 78..
2016-02-11T04:32:56Z Tiferet: of course minion is a bot
2016-02-11T04:32:59Z Tiferet: I'm stupid
2016-02-11T04:33:07Z Tiferet: I didn't read the line above minion's line
2016-02-11T04:33:28Z Tiferet: beach: channel dropdown on that site isn't working
2016-02-11T04:33:38Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
2016-02-11T04:33:40Z Bike: it doesn't matter. just put your paste up and link it.
2016-02-11T04:33:54Z Tiferet: paste.lisp.org/channels
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2016-02-11T04:33:56Z Tiferet: woops
2016-02-11T04:33:56Z Bike: all the channel dropdown does is get a bot to post it here, but it hasn't done that for years anyway.
2016-02-11T04:34:08Z Tiferet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/306986
2016-02-11T04:34:31Z Tiferet: this is the iterative fib function from the SICP
2016-02-11T04:34:45Z Tiferet: I can't make sense of what: (fib-iter (+ a b) a (- count 1)))) is doing
2016-02-11T04:35:12Z beach: Tiferet: That function is written using a transformation to tail recursion.
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2016-02-11T04:35:20Z Bike: try writing out what the successive calls to eg (fib-iter 1 1 3) would be.
2016-02-11T04:35:22Z beach: Tiferet: That is not a good way of using iteration.
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2016-02-11T04:35:53Z beach: Tiferet: Also, it would be best if you use Common Lisp for code in this channel.
2016-02-11T04:36:12Z Tiferet: beach: I'll rewrite it in common lisp from now on
2016-02-11T04:36:17Z Tiferet: beach: sorry
2016-02-11T04:36:34Z beach: Tiferet: Transforming recursive code to tail recursion is a mental exercise that makes it less readable.
2016-02-11T04:36:42Z Tiferet: aha
2016-02-11T04:37:08Z beach: For the sole pleasure of making it use constant space for the computation.
2016-02-11T04:37:22Z beach: But for that we have the LOOP macro, provided you use Common Lisp of course.
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2016-02-11T04:37:58Z beach: SICP uses Scheme, which is about minimalism, so they want to explain everything in terms of (tail-) recursion.
2016-02-11T04:38:10Z beach: Common Lisp programmers typically have no such desire.
2016-02-11T04:38:19Z Tiferet: so all it's doing is "Run fib-iter (1 0 n / 3 variables) but replace 1 with a + b, 0 with a and n with user input" ?
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2016-02-11T04:42:35Z Tiferet: I guess my confusion was that the arguments have values already but those values can change
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2016-02-11T04:43:09Z Tiferet: "1" and "0" are both arguments and default values for those arguments
2016-02-11T04:43:43Z beach: Tiferet: Like the book chapter explains, for each call, the arguments and local variables may have different values.
2016-02-11T04:43:53Z beach: Look at the picture of the stack.
2016-02-11T04:45:17Z Tiferet: beach: you're right, I'm sorry. processing this book is hard...
2016-02-11T04:45:52Z Tiferet: which is fine! I'm just not a seasoned programming-learner at all. first time learning coding with SICP was potentially a poor decision.
2016-02-11T04:46:17Z beach: You'll probably make it.
2016-02-11T04:46:32Z Tiferet: Thank you very much.
2016-02-11T04:46:41Z beach: But your problem is that #lisp is not about the Scheme language and #scheme is usually silent if I understand it.
2016-02-11T04:47:12Z beach: So there is a mismatch between what you are trying to learn and the place that is the most helpful. :)
2016-02-11T04:48:18Z Tiferet: beach: fair enough... okay, time to abandon SICP and read Touretzky's book
2016-02-11T04:48:24Z Tiferet: ha :)
2016-02-11T04:48:43Z Tiferet: I will try asking in #scheme if I run into anything problematic and SICP-related
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2016-02-11T04:51:05Z Tiferet: Is Touretzky's Gentle book recommended?
2016-02-11T04:51:53Z beach: Until my book is finished, that's pretty much what exists for beginner programmers in Common Lisp.
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2016-02-11T04:52:40Z beach: I personally didn't like it at all, but then, I was not a beginner when I read it.  And, like I said, it's all we have right now.
2016-02-11T04:53:12Z Tiferet: Yeah... I own it
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2016-02-11T04:53:23Z resttime: I might be out of context but Practical Common Lisp happens to be a good resource that I used.
2016-02-11T04:53:24Z Colleen: resttime: Shinmera wrote to you on Monday 2016.02.08 09:29:35 : I'm working on your issue now.
2016-02-11T04:53:52Z Tiferet: While I learned a thing or two about common lisp I found the learning experience kind of... awkward?
2016-02-11T04:54:05Z beach: resttime: PCL is usually considered good for people who already have some programming experience.
2016-02-11T04:54:25Z Tiferet: <-- not me
2016-02-11T04:54:35Z resttime: beach: Ah that's kind of what I suspected to be the context I was missing
2016-02-11T04:54:41Z beach: Tiferet: Learning ANYTHING is awkward.
2016-02-11T04:54:47Z beach: You might as well get used to it.
2016-02-11T04:56:21Z Tiferet: fair enough
2016-02-11T04:58:05Z resttime: Hmm, I wonder if it is still considered awkward if you get used to it.
2016-02-11T04:58:19Z beach: Probably not, no.
2016-02-11T04:58:23Z resttime: lol
2016-02-11T04:58:34Z beach: Well, "awkward" is not necessarily unpleasant.
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2016-02-11T05:08:06Z Tiferet: beach: I felt somewhat unprepared for the exercises about 100 pages in. And the last "keyboard exercise" I attempted included in its solution macros I hadn't been exposed to yet
2016-02-11T05:09:04Z Tiferet: beach: maybe a solution existed using only learned materials. so - probably - I'm at fault
2016-02-11T05:09:07Z beach: In "A Gentle introduction..."?
2016-02-11T05:09:13Z Tiferet: beach: yet
2016-02-11T05:09:16Z Tiferet: beach: yes
2016-02-11T05:09:30Z Tiferet: beach: specifically, the rock-paper-scissors keyboard exercise
2016-02-11T05:09:30Z beach: Like I said, I didn't like it at all myself so I am not going to defend it.
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2016-02-11T05:11:46Z Tiferet: beach: i was wrong - it's the craps exercise
2016-02-11T05:12:30Z Tiferet: beach: the solution includes use of APPEND which is only even mentioned about 5 pages later
2016-02-11T05:12:50Z beach: I see what you mean.
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2016-02-11T05:14:27Z Tiferet: beach: I look forward to reading your book :)
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2016-02-11T05:15:11Z beach: Thanks.
2016-02-11T05:15:12Z Tiferet: beach: I'm reading that chapter 6 segment as we speak - thank you
2016-02-11T05:16:23Z Tiferet: brb
2016-02-11T05:16:32Z beach: I knew I had made a figure like that somewhere (the stack figure) but it took me a while to remember where it was.
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2016-02-11T05:46:39Z Tiferet: beach: this call stack figure and accompanying explanation is amazing
2016-02-11T05:46:45Z Tiferet: beach: thank you
2016-02-11T05:48:54Z Tiferet: goodnight everyone - thanks again
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2016-02-11T06:30:16Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-02-11T06:34:17Z Opodeldoc: jackdaniel: you've never made my mornings 'good', nor has jimbeam
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2016-02-11T06:38:53Z jackdaniel: Opodeldoc: good evening then :)
2016-02-11T06:39:59Z thijso: After I recently updated sbcl (latest git version) and quicklisp, I am unable to compile swank anymore. I get the error "Symbol "*ASSEM-INSTRUCTIONS*" not found in the SB-ASSEM package". Does this ring a bell for anyone?
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2016-02-11T06:47:19Z jasom: beach: That's a neat little snippet on recursion.  I'll take every resource I can find on it, since so many people are bothered by recursive definitions (see also proof by induction for people getting hung-up)
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2016-02-11T06:49:02Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2016-02-11T06:49:16Z jackdaniel: o/
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2016-02-11T06:50:30Z beach: jasom: Thanks.  What do you mean by "I'll take every resource I can find on it"?
2016-02-11T06:50:42Z jasom: beach: for helping people who are hung-up on it
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2016-02-11T06:51:27Z beach: Oh, you mean you are establishing a collection of resources to help these people?
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2016-02-11T06:52:47Z beach: I agree that we need several different explanations, because people are convinced by different arguments.
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2016-02-11T06:57:19Z thijso: So, I'm the only one that is unable to compile swank with the newest sbcl master branch?
2016-02-11T06:57:54Z Bike: within the last twenty minutes, yeah.
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2016-02-11T06:59:25Z clintm: thijso: I hate that feeling. I'd back my repo up a commit or two and try again, but that's just me.  That, or get the latest, greatest version of swank from its repo.
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2016-02-11T07:00:27Z Bike: thijso: looks like it was better conditionalized as of https://github.com/slime/slime/commit/cac99fa29bad856be2c96146f38c2a457b1d4ab7. might not be in quicklisp yet.
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2016-02-11T07:04:34Z thijso: thanks, I'll take a look at the repo
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2016-02-11T07:08:05Z thijso: Yep, getting the latest slime from git solved the problem. Thanks!
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2016-02-11T07:16:37Z muyinliu: beach: I spent few minutes to take a look at the book Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation. It uses some image to describe program's process steps, but most of the images is NOT link to code or Common Lisp's environment. You are right. I don't like it too.
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2016-02-11T07:20:10Z muyinliu: A good book for beginner programmers should be really simple like Head First Python.
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2016-02-11T10:22:18Z kami: Xof: I read the next sections in AMOP and learned about specialising on compute-discriminating-function
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2016-02-11T10:23:26Z kami: What strikes me is that even if I define a custom method metaclass, there is no way of passing initialisation arguments through defmethod.
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2016-02-11T10:24:58Z kami: Do I have to write my own macro which instantiates the method-class and then assigns a method-function to it?
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2016-02-11T10:48:26Z jackdaniel: I'm revising ECL documentation. Could anyone comment on this hierarchy picture (in sense - is it accurate)?
2016-02-11T10:48:29Z jackdaniel: http://i.imgur.com/04lsDe3.png
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2016-02-11T10:55:20Z dreamaddict: https://github.com/zkat/cl-openal/blob/master/examples/getting-started.lisp
2016-02-11T10:55:46Z dreamaddict: lines 29-30, what does he mean with m-v-b (multiple variable binding?) and how would you do that with m-v-b like he is saying?
2016-02-11T10:56:13Z dreamaddict: (assuming I'm not using the actual load-memory-hello-world that he's doing, but another file)
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2016-02-11T11:01:23Z scymtym_: jackdaniel: i cannot comment on whether the diagram is accurate, but i have the following suggestions: 1) make the edges directed 2) introduce different kind of edges to represent "fork", "project was renamed", "contains code from"
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2016-02-11T11:02:34Z jackdaniel: scymtym_: ok, thanks for suggestions
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2016-02-11T11:05:26Z plertrood: jackdaniel: MCL and CCL seem to be missing.
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2016-02-11T11:06:45Z jackdaniel: plertrood: it's about the ECL family, not general overview of implementations
2016-02-11T11:07:05Z jackdaniel: but yeah, I had the temptation to add all (also ABCL, JSCL etc)
2016-02-11T11:07:18Z plertrood: Ah I see.
2016-02-11T11:07:33Z plertrood: I didn’t realise ECL had such a rich ancestry..
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2016-02-11T11:07:45Z jackdaniel: I'll probably write a post with all the CL implementations though
2016-02-11T11:08:04Z Shinmera: If we were talking all CLs there would also be XCL and SCL
2016-02-11T11:08:27Z plertrood: That would make for a good poster / tshirt.
2016-02-11T11:08:30Z Shinmera: And of course the commercial ones
2016-02-11T11:08:32Z jackdaniel: yes, LW, AllegroCL, MOCL
2016-02-11T11:08:59Z jackdaniel: by SCL you mean Scieener? It's commercial too I think
2016-02-11T11:09:02Z Shinmera: Yes
2016-02-11T11:09:26Z Shinmera: I never actually looked at Scieneer, just remembered the name
2016-02-11T11:16:56Z jackdaniel: what about this version? http://i.imgur.com/NfKzpvM.png
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2016-02-11T11:17:44Z H4ns: i'd lose the "common lisp" box, as it is really on a different dimension.
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2016-02-11T11:19:08Z Shinmera: Right, it should encompass them all if anything
2016-02-11T11:19:28Z Shinmera: But then it would imply being exhaustive, which it isn't.
2016-02-11T11:19:40Z jackdaniel: I agree about the dimension (that's why it's in a different color), but it makes a nice starting point
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2016-02-11T11:23:01Z H4ns: nice does not usually trump confusing or wrong, but have it your way.
2016-02-11T11:23:58Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I find your suggestion very good and I'm still considering removing the box
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2016-02-11T11:31:25Z dreamaddict: does anyone happen to know why OpenAL has three parts: alut, alc, al?
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2016-02-11T12:04:13Z francogrex: hi all, in one of the queries using clsql and sbcl I get sometimes those errors: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307017
2016-02-11T12:05:17Z francogrex: I have a feeling that I've done that before but forgotten how now: load asdf without compiling, then when it breaks enter the source file and code to better be focused on where in the src I can modify to dix that error
2016-02-11T12:05:21Z francogrex: fix
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2016-02-11T12:20:01Z francogrex: ?
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2016-02-11T13:11:55Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/697769953127043073 hrm, somewhat more complete graph
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2016-02-11T13:18:42Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: what does it mean when the arrows are reversed?
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2016-02-11T13:19:55Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: you mean inside the circle?
2016-02-11T13:19:58Z jackdaniel: that the project was renamed
2016-02-11T13:20:02Z Shinmera: Ah.
2016-02-11T13:20:09Z Shinmera: That wasn't obvious to me.
2016-02-11T13:20:33Z Shinmera: Maybe instead just put both names into the same circle and an arrow between?
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2016-02-11T13:21:05Z jackdaniel: nice idea, thanks
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2016-02-11T13:26:38Z loke``: Good evening Lisp!
2016-02-11T13:26:45Z Shinmera: Hello loke.
2016-02-11T13:30:47Z loke``: Whathappening?
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2016-02-11T13:31:27Z Shinmera: Trying to concentrate on solving an architectural problem in Colleen3, but it ain't happenin'.
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2016-02-11T13:33:03Z loke``: what iscollen3?
2016-02-11T13:33:53Z Shinmera: the next instance of my chat bot/chat client framework
2016-02-11T13:34:11Z Shinmera: Starting from scratch once again
2016-02-11T13:35:03Z dwchandler: heh
2016-02-11T13:35:44Z loke``: Shinmera: chat bot?
2016-02-11T13:36:03Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell loke`` about yourself
2016-02-11T13:36:03Z Colleen: loke``: I'm a modularized IRC bot framework written in Common Lisp. For a list of commands, try !help . You can find my source code here: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
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2016-02-11T13:36:33Z Shinmera: 3 isn't limited to IRC anymore however.
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2016-02-11T13:37:46Z loke``: Colleen: How about implementing support for Potato then?
2016-02-11T13:37:46Z Colleen: How: Sorry, I don't know anything about implementing support for Potato then?.
2016-02-11T13:38:06Z Shinmera: loke``: I can consider that, certainly.
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2016-02-11T13:38:33Z loke``: There are three API's that can be used: Native Lisp, RabbitMQ or REST
2016-02-11T13:40:19Z Shinmera: I'll have a closer look at some point, but there's more fundamental issues to deal with before I can scurry off to implement more clients.
2016-02-11T13:40:19Z loke``: Colleen: How do you work?
2016-02-11T13:40:20Z Colleen: HIDDEN ERROR: Usage of "spouse" is not recognizedHIDDEN ERROR: Usage of "children" is not recognizedHIDDEN ERROR: Usage of "signature" is not recognizedHIDDEN ERROR: Usage of "death_cause" is not reco... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon>
2016-02-11T13:40:29Z Shinmera: Interesting.
2016-02-11T13:40:39Z loke``: Colleen: Are you b0rked?
2016-02-11T13:40:39Z Colleen: loke``: Sorry, I don't know anything about Are you b0rked?.
2016-02-11T13:40:44Z Shinmera: It's not a chat bot in the sense that it knows how to converse with people
2016-02-11T13:40:49Z loke``: Colleen: You are a bot.
2016-02-11T13:40:50Z Colleen: An Internet bot, also known as web robot, WWW robot or simply bot, is a software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) over the Internet. Typically, bots perform tasks that are both simple a... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot>
2016-02-11T13:40:55Z Shinmera: It's purely functional, like minion.
2016-02-11T13:41:13Z Shinmera: Saying anything that isn't a specific command will just result in a wikipedia lookup.
2016-02-11T13:41:36Z loke``: Shinmera: It would be neat to have it running on our office potato server
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2016-02-11T13:42:18Z Shinmera: Sure.
2016-02-11T13:42:39Z loke``: We have a bot there already, but it's written in Ruby and mainly integrates with out bug tracker and stuff (dplsys bug report info when someone mentions a bug for example). Can colleen be coerced into doing stuff liek that?
2016-02-11T13:42:53Z Shinmera: you can write a module for it, yes.
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2016-02-11T13:43:07Z Shinmera: It's a bot framework primarily after all.
2016-02-11T13:43:26Z loke``: Shinmera: Neat, the more CL the better :-)
2016-02-11T13:43:30Z Shinmera: Heh
2016-02-11T13:43:42Z loke``: (i'm not a fan of ruby, but it wasn't me who wrote the bot)
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2016-02-11T13:51:52Z Cymew: !help
2016-02-11T13:52:00Z Cymew: Does it trigger on that?
2016-02-11T13:52:07Z Cymew: Doesn't look like it.
2016-02-11T13:52:14Z Shinmera: commands are deactivated here to avoid accidental triggering
2016-02-11T13:52:23Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell Cymew about help
2016-02-11T13:52:23Z Colleen: Cymew: You can retrieve general help information about me in the user manual: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=5A# . Otherwise help about commands can be retrieved with: !help command
2016-02-11T13:52:43Z Shinmera: You can open a private chat if you want to play around
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2016-02-11T14:26:05Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/697786715017125888 (added some more ancient CL implementations :)
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2016-02-11T14:27:49Z H4ns: jackdaniel: that is nice!
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2016-02-11T14:28:57Z jackdaniel: H4ns: thanks :)
2016-02-11T14:29:36Z H4ns: jackdaniel: where's clojure in that picture?
2016-02-11T14:29:40Z loke``: Hello H4ns
2016-02-11T14:29:50Z loke``: H4ns: are you the maintainer of cxml?
2016-02-11T14:30:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: also, is "allegro" referring to "allegro common lisp"?
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2016-02-11T14:30:24Z H4ns: loke``: no, i'm not.  david lichteblau is, i think.
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2016-02-11T14:30:38Z loke``: H4ns: Thanks. Is he om this channel?
2016-02-11T14:30:44Z moore33: I didn't know that LispWorks is derived from CMUCL.
2016-02-11T14:30:49Z H4ns: jackdaniel: also, genera is not a lisp, it is an operating system.  the lisp is called zeta lisp
2016-02-11T14:31:03Z moore33: Also, Utah Common Lisp should be floating around out there somewhere :)
2016-02-11T14:31:04Z jackdaniel: H4ns: it's only common lisp implementations graph, hence no clojure
2016-02-11T14:31:11Z jackdaniel: moore33: thanks
2016-02-11T14:31:30Z jackdaniel: H4ns: regarding genera, Rainer Joswig told me, that OpenGenera inherits from Genera
2016-02-11T14:31:47Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it does, but it is not a common lisp implementation.
2016-02-11T14:31:48Z jackdaniel: allegro is allegro common lisp, yes
2016-02-11T14:31:56Z p_l: jackdaniel: well... hard to say if it inherits or counts as variant
2016-02-11T14:31:59Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i'd use the full name.
2016-02-11T14:32:29Z moore33: Newer versions of Genera supported both ZetaLisp and Symbolics Common Lisp.
2016-02-11T14:32:30Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i did not know that the stuff on the right are common lisp implementations either.  are you sure?
2016-02-11T14:32:30Z jackdaniel: H4ns: most implementations have CL at the end, but I may make exception for allegro for clarity
2016-02-11T14:32:47Z jackdaniel: on the right? which one exactlly?
2016-02-11T14:32:51Z jackdaniel: exactly°
2016-02-11T14:32:53Z H4ns: jackdaniel: left, sorry.
2016-02-11T14:33:07Z moore33: Ibuki was directly derived from KCL.
2016-02-11T14:33:09Z H4ns: jackdaniel: ah, i see, you're leaving out the "common lisp" suffix.
2016-02-11T14:33:15Z p_l: OpenGenera main difference from Genera is afaik that it targets Ivory v5 instead of v4
2016-02-11T14:33:17Z jackdaniel: yeah, I've double checked them
2016-02-11T14:33:24Z H4ns: jackdaniel: got it now.  don't mind me.
2016-02-11T14:33:59Z moore33: p_l: I thought it targeted DEC Alpha :P
2016-02-11T14:35:06Z p_l: moore33: depends on how you divide shit
2016-02-11T14:35:34Z p_l: ... dunno why I wrote 'shit' there, sorry
2016-02-11T14:35:42Z p_l: (too much multitasking)
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2016-02-11T14:35:54Z moore33: p_l: Freudian slip
2016-02-11T14:35:59Z p_l: might be
2016-02-11T14:36:29Z jackdaniel: moore33: ibuku from the KCL or AKCL?
2016-02-11T14:36:31Z p_l: generally, you have 3 components in OpenGenera 2.0 distribution, two of which are shared with other implementations partially
2016-02-11T14:36:45Z moore33: jackdaniel: From KCL, IIRC.
2016-02-11T14:36:53Z jackdaniel: OK, thanks
2016-02-11T14:38:21Z p_l: VLM2 contains the famous "Ivory microcode for Alpha" coupled into one binary with LifeSupport (which is based on common code for UX-series and MacIvory. Meanwhile the Genera OS itself differs in driver related code and in targeting Ivory v5 instead of earlier ones (v5 is exclusive to VLM)
2016-02-11T14:39:00Z moore33: p_l: You know way more about it than I.
2016-02-11T14:39:07Z p_l: moore33: just looked through the sources
2016-02-11T14:39:24Z moore33: Plus you have sources :)
2016-02-11T14:39:36Z p_l: moore33: certain people here put them on github ;)
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2016-02-11T14:39:52Z Cymew: Github, really?
2016-02-11T14:39:58Z Cymew: impressive
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2016-02-11T14:45:20Z Cymew: Have I mentioned that I think Github have crappy search tool. Totally unreleated, naturally.
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2016-02-11T14:49:14Z kenanb: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ is this document a generally agreed upon community guideline
2016-02-11T14:49:44Z kenanb: because it involves a considerable amount of dangerous bias in its approach to libraries
2016-02-11T14:50:15Z H4ns: kenanb: there is no "generally agreed" in the common lisp world.
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2016-02-11T14:51:13Z Shinmera: kenanb: I agree that it is biased, and that's why it bothers me that it's trying to act like some kind of consensus document.
2016-02-11T14:51:20Z kenanb: "In the area of numerical code, a library I’ve always though was interesting in this domain is Antik, but sadly it depends on the GNU Scientific Library, making it GPL. There’s also mgl-mat and LLA." since when a library being GPL is a "sad" thing :D
2016-02-11T14:51:27Z H4ns: kenanb: and i personally find several things in that list that i do not agree with.
2016-02-11T14:51:47Z Shinmera: kenanb: It's sad because it forces you to make your own library GPL.
2016-02-11T14:52:04Z H4ns: kenanb: i avoid gpl whenever i can.  there you have another reason why there is no "generally agreed".
2016-02-11T14:52:53Z Shinmera: Well in terms of licenses I think more liberal ones than GPL are much more prevalent in Lisp at least.
2016-02-11T14:53:10Z kenanb: Shinmera: I know, but it is not sad, it is what it is, just saying beware its GPL was enough IMHO
2016-02-11T14:53:13Z p_l: kenanb: well, it's very opinionated. I know I wouldn't agree with many bits, for example CL-SQL
2016-02-11T14:53:25Z p_l: or rather, CL-DBI
2016-02-11T14:53:39Z Shinmera: kenanb: Sure, but that's probably the least problematic thing in there in my opinion
2016-02-11T14:53:52Z Shinmera: It could be brushed away as flowery writing even.
2016-02-11T14:54:08Z kenanb: "Kill cl-launch, use Roswell." things like these are the real sad stuff, a library is a hard-work of a person, highly suggesting killing a library in favor of another is very disrespectful
2016-02-11T14:54:57Z Shinmera: I don't have a beef with that either, but what actually irks me is that for most things theres absolutely zero explanation for the recommended action.
2016-02-11T14:55:05Z H4ns: kenanb: you answered your question.
2016-02-11T14:57:17Z kenanb: H4ns: yeah, I was just trying to understand if the community shares my concerns about the document or people are usually more OK with being a little wrong in favor of providing an easier entry point to newcomers
2016-02-11T14:57:56Z Shinmera: There's some of both of those parties.
2016-02-11T14:58:04Z H4ns: kenanb: that's just a blog post, not a "document" :D
2016-02-11T14:58:10Z Cymew: Shinmera: I kind of agree. It looked good to begin with, but then I started to question the lack of reason for some dismissals.
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2016-02-11T15:10:12Z kenanb: Shinmera, H4ns: btw I personally favor GPL for an application, liberal licences for libraries, and if there is anything that can be a library in the application, seperate it and make it a liberal library.
2016-02-11T15:10:44Z H4ns: cool story, kenanb
2016-02-11T15:11:08Z Xof: kami: defmethod returns the method object, so a small wrapper can use reinitialize-instance
2016-02-11T15:11:35Z kenanb: in CL an application and a library is not as different as some other langs but still
2016-02-11T15:11:46Z Xof: kami: otherwise, you need to specialize make-method-lambda, which is a slight can of worms
2016-02-11T15:12:52Z kami: Xof: yes, I read about the problems with make-method-lambda
2016-02-11T15:13:12Z kami: Xof: I will try the reinitialize-instance route
2016-02-11T15:13:57Z kami: Xof: this paper contains what I would have loved to see http://www.ai.mit.edu/conferences/dow96/DOLA/2.SUB4-5.pdf
2016-02-11T15:14:29Z kami: metaobjects for GF and method parameters
2016-02-11T15:15:01Z kami: page 4 fig 2 is the type of metadata which I would like to attach to methods
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2016-02-11T15:15:25Z kami: information about the argument types etc.
2016-02-11T15:16:55Z Xof: ok, that basically looks crazy to me
2016-02-11T15:17:06Z Cymew: !uptime
2016-02-11T15:17:50Z Cymew: !convert-to metric mile 12
2016-02-11T15:17:58Z Cymew: Hmm
2016-02-11T15:17:58Z Xof: do you want to attach that information to method parameters for programmatic dispatch purposes, or for documentation only?
2016-02-11T15:20:18Z Xof: if you "just" want to attach extra metainformation on a method for later introspection, a wrapper that uses the method object as a key in a weak hash-table is a straightforward solution that doesn't require any MOP extensions
2016-02-11T15:20:37Z Xof: if you want to affect dispatch, there are a lot of other things that you need to think about
2016-02-11T15:20:50Z Shinmera: Cymew: use privmsgs. Commands are disabled here.
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2016-02-11T15:22:55Z kami: Xof: the former, and a weak hashtable was what I started with. Then I remembered that I had read something about method metaclasses in AMOP and re-read that chapter again
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2016-02-11T15:23:46Z kami: Xof: I was just curious as whether there is an easy way of achieving the same thing with metaclasses
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2016-02-11T15:32:42Z loke``: You watching?
2016-02-11T15:32:43Z loke``: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7293kAiPZw
2016-02-11T15:33:14Z dlowe: off. topic.
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2016-02-11T15:41:47Z ysz: Coq is highlighted this year at ESL I'm intrigued how can I use my Coq developments in Common Lisp?
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2016-02-11T15:51:46Z loke``: Whereand when is ESL this year?
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2016-02-11T15:53:31Z Shinmera: May 9/10th, Krakow Poland
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2016-02-11T15:54:28Z Cymew: Shinmera: realized that
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2016-02-11T15:55:52Z shka: does lparallel utilizes thread pool?
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2016-02-11T15:56:42Z shka: also, anybody worked with lparallel kernel?
2016-02-11T15:56:58Z shka: it looks really, really good on the surface
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2016-02-11T16:02:06Z scymtym_: shka: lparallel kernel = threadpool. most of lparallel cannot be used without creating a kernel.
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2016-02-11T16:06:01Z shka: ok
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2016-02-11T16:09:41Z shka: scymtym_: what is exact role of channel?
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2016-02-11T16:15:04Z scymtym_: shka: you can pass objects to tasks (i.e. other threads) and receive objects from tasks through channels
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2016-02-11T16:16:11Z shka: so i can glue one channel to another, setup two kernels and i have two stage operation?
2016-02-11T16:16:38Z shka: with each stage running asynchronus
2016-02-11T16:17:28Z scymtym_: you do not need multiple kernels to have more than one thread. a single kernel can manage any number of worker threads
2016-02-11T16:17:51Z shka: that's a good point
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2016-02-11T16:18:43Z shka: i guess the use for multiple kernels is rather limited
2016-02-11T16:19:07Z shka: scymtym_: btw, are you author of lparallel?
2016-02-11T16:20:26Z scymtym_: shka: no, i only use it sometimes. the author is James M. Lawrence
2016-02-11T16:20:35Z shka: oh, ok
2016-02-11T16:20:52Z shka: I wanted to say that you did exceptional job on this library
2016-02-11T16:21:29Z shka: but instead
2016-02-11T16:21:37Z shka: thanks for answering my stupid questions
2016-02-11T16:22:08Z scymtym_: no problem
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2016-02-11T16:39:09Z schoppenhauer: hi. does anyone use cl-who? It seems like cl-who:htm only accepts constant strings. is there something that accepts variables?
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2016-02-11T16:41:35Z mordocai: schoppenhauer: I'm not all that familiar, but shouldn't you be using with-html-output or with-html-output-to-string not htm?
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2016-02-11T16:41:48Z mordocai: Per docs anyway http://weitz.de/cl-who/#htm
2016-02-11T16:41:59Z mordocai: htm has no docs so...
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2016-02-11T16:43:48Z schoppenhauer: mordocai: the point is: I sometimes need to insert unescaped cleartext.
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2016-02-11T16:44:01Z schoppenhauer: mordocai: this works with htm. as long as its constant.
2016-02-11T16:44:14Z ferada: schoppenhauer: there's cl-who:str
2016-02-11T16:44:35Z ferada: if you don't mean that then you can still write to the cl-who output stream manually
2016-02-11T16:44:53Z schoppenhauer: ferada: thx, seems to do what i want!
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2016-02-11T16:50:33Z myrkraverk: Is there something I can use to time 4usec sleep?
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2016-02-11T16:50:49Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-02-11T16:50:56Z Shinmera: myrkraverk: SLEEP takes fractions
2016-02-11T16:51:12Z Shinmera: But whether it'll actually allow you to sleep for that short of a time is up to the implementation
2016-02-11T16:51:13Z jasom: myrkraverk: (sleep 4/1000000)
2016-02-11T16:51:20Z jasom: myrkraverk: or ffi to usleep
2016-02-11T16:51:28Z myrkraverk: No, I mean, I want to measure my sleep, to know if ti's sleeping for the desired time.
2016-02-11T16:51:34Z jasom: myrkraverk: time
2016-02-11T16:51:57Z jasom: myrkraverk: but that probably won't be low enough resolution to meaure 4us
2016-02-11T16:52:04Z jasom: e.g. sbcl only shows real-time in ms resolutin
2016-02-11T16:52:08Z Shinmera: check internal-time-units-per-second and see if it's precise enough
2016-02-11T16:52:29Z Shinmera: if not, you'll have to do non-standard stuff.
2016-02-11T16:52:35Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I'm using SBCL, but I'll try it on my machine.
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2016-02-11T16:53:02Z jasom: only 1000 on sbcl
2016-02-11T16:53:25Z jasom: ccl has us resolution
2016-02-11T16:53:41Z jasom: (time (sleep 4/1000000)) took 8s microseconds to run
2016-02-11T16:54:02Z jdz: jasom: for me it took 5us
2016-02-11T16:54:05Z jasom: s/8/82
2016-02-11T16:54:09Z jdz: on SBCL
2016-02-11T16:54:26Z jasom: jdz: huh, my sbcl only has 1000 for internal-time-units-per-second
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2016-02-11T16:54:42Z jasom: jdz: so it took 0.000 seconds on sbcl :)
2016-02-11T16:54:42Z jdz: is SLEEP in any way related to INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND?
2016-02-11T16:54:50Z jasom: jdz: no, but TIME usually is
2016-02-11T16:54:50Z myrkraverk:   0.000022 seconds of total run time (0.000012 user, 0.000010 system) <--- os x, but only 0.0 on linux.
2016-02-11T16:55:04Z myrkraverk: So the timer is OS dependent.
2016-02-11T16:55:15Z jasom: it might be a compile time option too
2016-02-11T16:55:16Z jdz: of course
2016-02-11T16:55:34Z jasom: since ccl on linux has no time reporting real time in microsecond resolution
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2016-02-11T16:56:52Z jasom: of course if your have sbcl source installed you can just M-. to sleep and see if it uses usleep (it probably does)
2016-02-11T16:57:25Z myrkraverk: I googled some commits, which referenced nanosleep.
2016-02-11T16:57:35Z jasom: oh, so even lower resolution
2016-02-11T16:57:48Z jasom: not that sleeping for much less than a single us is likely to do what you want
2016-02-11T16:57:54Z myrkraverk: I didn't read the source, only commit message.
2016-02-11T16:58:21Z myrkraverk: 4us, for a slight respite on an http server.
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2016-02-11T16:58:54Z myrkraverk: The actual work I do might take longer, between requests, but I'm also trying to be polite.
2016-02-11T16:59:22Z jasom: myrkraverk: perhaps setting a higher nice value would be an alternative?
2016-02-11T17:00:10Z myrkraverk: That's too random.  Client and server are not on the same machine.
2016-02-11T17:00:41Z jasom: ohhh
2016-02-11T17:00:55Z myrkraverk: So as long as $server-operator is happy and I'm not overloading it, 4us should be fine.  I can alwasy increase it.
2016-02-11T17:01:00Z jasom: right
2016-02-11T17:01:11Z jasom: I usually limit my self to N requests per second
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2016-02-11T17:02:00Z jasom: but that is a bit more code than just sleep
2016-02-11T17:02:16Z myrkraverk: I see.  In my case, I just ask $server-operator who can tell me to increase the sleep.
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2016-02-11T17:21:03Z myrkraverk: Dafuq?  Why does :keep-alive t not automagically also mean :close nil ?
2016-02-11T17:21:07Z myrkraverk: In drakma
2016-02-11T17:24:15Z jasom: myrkraverk: well it *is* legal to set the keep alive header and then close the connection
2016-02-11T17:24:24Z jasom: but yeah, that seems like a suboptimal default
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2016-02-11T17:47:32Z H4ns: the documentation says "If keep-alive is T, the server will be asked to keep the connection alive, i.e. not to close it after the reply has been sent. (Note that this not necessary if both the client and the server use HTTP 1.1.) If close is T, the server is explicitly asked to close the connection after the reply has been sent. keep-alive and close are obviously mutually exclusive."
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2016-02-11T17:48:22Z H4ns: I'd welcome a patch that helps enforce the mutual exclusion between the two.
2016-02-11T17:49:41Z ferada: it's already enforced, just the default isn't setup so that keep-alive implies :close NIL
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2016-02-11T18:08:38Z dlowe: :after-request (:keep-alive|:close) would probably have been the right interface
2016-02-11T18:08:57Z dlowe: too late!
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2016-02-11T18:20:54Z myrkraverk: Is there something else than cl-ppcre that can be used to put string variables in a string template?  Similar to "${foo}+${bar}" does in perl?
2016-02-11T18:21:24Z myrkraverk: I don't see a reason to use REs for that.
2016-02-11T18:22:19Z myrkraverk: In my case, I want to load these templates from a config file (whether s-expressions or something else).
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2016-02-11T18:23:43Z mordocai: myrkraverk: format?
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2016-02-11T18:24:08Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah, I had forgotten (format nil ...) ; thanks.
2016-02-11T18:24:22Z mordocai: np :)
2016-02-11T18:24:42Z myrkraverk: Though, yes, it does help; as long as I don't want to rearrange the inputs.
2016-02-11T18:25:17Z myrkraverk: I don't think I need that.  Can format use named parameters?
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2016-02-11T18:27:20Z dlowe: myrkraverk: you might also be interested in cl-interpol
2016-02-11T18:28:02Z myrkraverk: Do I get a free WANTED poster with it?
2016-02-11T18:29:41Z myrkraverk: Hmm, apparently not, but it's probably what i want if I need to rearrange the inputs.
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2016-02-11T18:30:04Z mordocai: myrkraverk: I don't see a way to do named parameters with format without writing some stuff yourself. So yeah, cl-interpol looks better.
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2016-02-11T18:54:57Z jasom: I wish there were a macro-only version of cl-interpol; I don't mind a couple of extra characters to type, and slime is iffy with reader macros
2016-02-11T18:55:35Z Bicyclidine: i thought the whole point of interpol was read macros.
2016-02-11T18:55:58Z dlowe: it gets messy fast without doing it in the reader
2016-02-11T18:56:04Z jasom: Bicyclidine: The only thing that needs read macros is the arbitrary string delimiter
2016-02-11T18:56:26Z jasom: If you limited yourself to " as a string delimiter, it can be done just fine as a normal macro
2016-02-11T18:56:31Z dlowe: that turns out to be important, because you want to intern those symbols at read time
2016-02-11T18:56:51Z dlowe: "${foo}" needs to resolve to *package*::foo
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2016-02-11T18:57:35Z jasom is trying to think of a case where *package* is different at read-time and macroexpand time
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2016-02-11T18:57:56Z jasom: not saying it's not possible, but I'm trying to think of a real-world case
2016-02-11T18:59:09Z Bicyclidine: I mean, what macros from interpol do you want? I don't understand and I'm curious.
2016-02-11T18:59:09Z dlowe: sure, you can make something that only breaks .1% of the time.
2016-02-11T18:59:19Z dlowe: do it enough times, and you'll have a nice perl implementation
2016-02-11T19:01:03Z dlowe: Seems like you don't even want interpol, you just want to do (format-str str1 str2 str3 "whee" str4 num) and have it do the right thing, which is achievable with a basic function
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2016-02-11T19:24:02Z jasom: yeah, that and some simple form of escaping (I'd not use \ for obvious reasons)
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2016-02-11T19:36:55Z dlowe: I'm not sure what escaping would do...
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2016-02-11T19:44:29Z myrkraverk: Well, it'll allow you to expand, say (x "${foo}+${{foo}}" bar) -> "bar+${foo}" ; assuming I understand the convo correctly.
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2016-02-11T19:45:19Z myrkraverk: Or rather, (x "${foo}+${{foo}}" :foo "bar")  ; where x is some function or macro.
2016-02-11T19:46:41Z jasom: dlowe: I meant for things like \t \n &ct. not escaping per-se but for commonly used single characters, though I suppose (format-str "foo" #\Newline "bar") wouldn't be terrible
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2016-02-11T19:57:37Z myrkraverk: Hmm, while it seems py-configparser is what I wanted, I would like a simple example, and not just an api dump and have to guess how to use it.
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2016-02-11T20:16:23Z myrkraverk: "Values which contain interpolations are expanded by default" <--- any idea what this means?
2016-02-11T20:17:34Z dlowe: myrkraverk: I suspect you're intended to use the python docs and then extrapolate
2016-02-11T20:17:48Z myrkraverk: Ah, it's covered in the python docs.
2016-02-11T20:18:10Z myrkraverk: https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html#interpolation-of-values
2016-02-11T20:18:24Z myrkraverk: Not sure I want this.
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2016-02-11T20:19:09Z dlowe: It is part of the format
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2016-02-11T20:19:44Z InvalidCo: last time I checked, this was not #python
2016-02-11T20:20:17Z dlowe: InvalidCo: someone confused the issue by converting a python module into CL and then supplying no docs
2016-02-11T20:20:28Z dlowe: so in this one case, it's totally relevant
2016-02-11T20:20:30Z InvalidCo: oh
2016-02-11T20:20:31Z InvalidCo: haha
2016-02-11T20:22:07Z InvalidCo: my condolences
2016-02-11T20:23:56Z myrkraverk: Oh, great.  Of course it reads comments if they start on the same line as options.
2016-02-11T20:24:05Z myrkraverk: So no
2016-02-11T20:24:13Z myrkraverk: foo = bar #this is a comment.
2016-02-11T20:24:52Z jasom: dlowe: and for once it wasn't me that converted a python module into CL and supplied no docs (though I do have an example).
2016-02-11T20:25:17Z InvalidCo: *INNER-DELIMITERS*
2016-02-11T20:25:25Z InvalidCo: hesus
2016-02-11T20:26:03Z InvalidCo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcxoiaaDSW8
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2016-02-11T20:33:17Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: yes, there's at least one OSX app in the App Store written in CCL: 'Clozure CL.app'.
2016-02-11T20:33:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-11T20:37:09Z pjb: p_l: wukix is not at all like ecl or any other CL implementation. It's like clicc (it might have been derived from it, perhaps).  Ie. it takes a CL sources, and translates it into a C source, add a library and compile and link in your native environment (Android NDK or iOS). This is much more restricted and incompatible than having a bytecode VM (after all, very good implementations work with just a bytecode VM).
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2016-02-11T20:37:55Z kami: Good evening.
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2016-02-11T20:45:09Z jasom: pjb, p_l, however, combining something like clicc with a bytecode interpreter might be a good solution for OS X.
2016-02-11T20:45:51Z jasom: though at that point you have something more like ecl
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2016-02-11T21:04:06Z pjb: jasom: a normal CL implementation (almost all of them have an interpreter or a bytecode VM in addition to the native compiler.  Even sbcl nowadays has an interpreter I hear).
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2016-02-11T21:04:39Z phoe_krk: pjb: yes, SBCL has an interpreter.
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2016-02-11T21:13:31Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: you need to write a wrapper Objective-C class with a lisp slot refering to your lisp object.
2016-02-11T21:13:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-11T21:46:52Z InvalidCo: minion: memo for InvalidCo: pong
2016-02-11T21:46:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell InvalidCo when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-02-11T21:46:52Z minion: InvalidCo, memo from InvalidCo: pong
2016-02-11T21:46:57Z InvalidCo: heh
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2016-02-11T22:21:37Z jasom: pjb: I meant that cross-compile to C everything static, and include a bytecode interpreter  for everything else; SBCL has an interpreter, but the way it loads memory images is incompatible with the restrictions of iOS
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2016-02-11T22:31:48Z drmeister: If objects are allocated on the stack/dynamic extent, what does the GC have to do with pointers within the object?   Anything?
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2016-02-11T22:36:10Z jasom: drmeister: they are roots of the GC
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2016-02-11T22:36:37Z jasom: objects with dynamic extent that is are roots of the live object tree
2016-02-11T22:37:07Z jasom: when the dynamic extent goes away, then they are no longer roots, and anything that they had been the only reference to will be garbage
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2016-02-11T22:53:02Z drmeister: jasom: They should only be pointed to by other objects on the stack and registers.
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2016-02-11T23:11:39Z p_l: pjb: from my understanding, wukix might have bytecoded vm now
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2016-02-11T23:17:40Z heddwch is now known as sartie
2016-02-11T23:18:19Z axion: if anyone is interested, i created a library to generate a dungeon tile map for use in a game, with many parameters to tweak. example of custom rendering the outputted data structure: http://imgur.com/tcdLoYu
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2016-02-11T23:22:34Z jasom: axion: nice; for another rpg tool in lisp see: http://jasom.github.io/cl-fccs/
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2016-02-11T23:23:56Z axion: i saw that last week. :)
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2016-02-11T23:46:05Z shikhin: Ban wch.
2016-02-11T23:46:20Z wch: ...not really funny.
2016-02-11T23:46:28Z shikhin: :(
2016-02-11T23:46:36Z shikhin: Neither is your nickspam.
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2016-02-11T23:47:18Z mordocai: Not sure if i'd call 3 name changes in an hour spam.
2016-02-11T23:48:11Z shikhin: mordocai: Sorry, only kidding. Let wch be.
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2016-02-11T23:58:34Z dreamaddict: is the quicklisp version of openal the same as these: https://github.com/zkat/cl-openal
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2016-02-11T23:59:37Z aeth: dreamaddict: there's a repository on github where you can see the origin repository of everything on quicklisp
2016-02-11T23:59:51Z aeth: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2016-02-12T00:00:03Z aeth: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/projects/cl-openal/source.txt
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2016-02-12T00:00:27Z dreamaddict: thank you, it is indeed the same according to that
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2016-02-12T00:09:56Z jasom: okay, the the spec for go says it's undefined if there is no matching lexical tag, but do not say what happens if the matching tag's dynamic extent has ended, it just says it "is not valid"
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2016-02-12T00:21:39Z jasom: (catch 'a (throw 'a 2) 3) ;=> 2
2016-02-12T00:21:43Z jasom: now to implement tagbody
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2016-02-12T00:23:49Z jasom implemented tagbody in terms of let, gensym, and catch once... time to dig that up
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2016-02-12T01:46:59Z xadi: Hello
2016-02-12T01:47:04Z xadi: I have a question
2016-02-12T01:47:22Z xadi: ```(labels ((defun (args) ((fmakunbound (nth 1 args)) (apply print [args]))))
2016-02-12T01:47:23Z xadi:         (defun '(1 2 3))
2016-02-12T01:47:23Z xadi: )```
2016-02-12T01:47:23Z xadi: how can I fix it? :>
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2016-02-12T01:48:16Z xadi: I would love hearing from you about my problem
2016-02-12T01:48:25Z xadi: wasted plenty of time till now
2016-02-12T01:48:36Z Bike: What in the hell are you trying to do?
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2016-02-12T01:52:01Z |3b|: remove the extra ``` at the end and it works fine (doesn't do anything useful though)
2016-02-12T01:53:36Z Quadrescence: hashtag insane lisp "code"
2016-02-12T01:53:41Z |3b|: unless you meant ``` as delimiting the code, in which case you aren't allowed to define CL:DEFUN as a local function, PRINT and [ARGS] aren't defined as variables, (FMAKUNBOUND (NTH 1 ARGS)) isn't a valid operator name
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2016-02-12T01:56:25Z |3b|: so since pretty much everything about that is somehow broken, probably the best way to fix it would be just replace it with a direct call to ERROR
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2016-02-12T01:58:48Z Opodeldoc: ^ ROFL
2016-02-12T02:00:27Z mordocai: I'm guessing the `````` is for github markdown's code block syntax
2016-02-12T02:01:30Z |3b|: or alternately, to try to remove the 'pretty much', we could replace NTH with AREF, use #' instead of ', mess up the indentation/newlines a bit more, and maybe replace LABELS with LET or something
2016-02-12T02:02:08Z |3b|: maybe unbalance the parens too
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2016-02-12T03:48:12Z ahungry: lol
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2016-02-12T04:05:14Z loke: |3b|: that was an interesting code snippet. :-)
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2016-02-12T04:22:20Z mordocai: Anyone know a better way to do this define an initarg based on binding being (blah 0) and wanting initarg to be :BLAH? https://github.com/vydd/sketch/pull/5/files
2016-02-12T04:22:33Z mordocai: Currently that seems to work but seems pretty ugly
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2016-02-12T04:23:46Z Bike: seems pretty normal to me. you can do string-upcase on symbols to get th esame effect, though.
2016-02-12T04:24:38Z |3b|: if its already a symbol, why upcase at all?
2016-02-12T04:24:59Z |3b|: though i guess it depends on which sort of odd reader settings they have
2016-02-12T04:25:37Z mordocai: Ah yeah, with default reader settings just ,(alexandria:make-keyword (car binding)) should work it seems
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2016-02-12T04:47:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-12T04:48:35Z jasom: good morning beach
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2016-02-12T05:01:10Z beach: Does anyone have access to either Allegro or LispWorks, and if so, what do these two loops do: 1. (loop until (> i 5) for i from 0 do (print i))  2. (loop for i from 0 below 5 sum i finally (print i))
2016-02-12T05:03:25Z Quadrescence: beach, lw http://paste.lisp.org/display/307084
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2016-02-12T05:04:00Z beach: Thanks!
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2016-02-12T05:05:53Z beach: A few days ago, splittist asked what papers I intend to submit to ELS.  I said one about Cluffer, but now it looks like there is enough time to also write a paper about SICL LOOP.  This request of mine is to see what LOOP implementation the commercial Common Lisp systems have.
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2016-02-12T05:06:57Z beach: For the record, LispWorks seems to do what the other implementations do as well, and those two results are both non-conforming.
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2016-02-12T05:08:31Z beach: ... so the paper will be more interesting than I had initially anticipated. :)
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2016-02-12T05:09:39Z |3b|: isn't the first loop non-conforming ?
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2016-02-12T05:10:16Z beach: It is.
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2016-02-12T05:11:21Z beach: ... because UNTIL is a main clause and FOR is a variable clause, but the standard says that variable clauses must precede main clauses.
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2016-02-12T05:11:26Z |3b|: right
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2016-02-12T05:12:02Z beach: The second example is conforming, but it should print 4, not 5.
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2016-02-12T09:25:56Z splittist: beach: your LOOP paper may have to have a clarifying discussion of the various meanings and usages of 'conforming', 'conformance' etc.
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2016-02-12T09:57:45Z dreamaddict: does anyone know how to convert a float into (signed-byte 32)?
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2016-02-12T10:09:49Z splittist: dreamaddict: you mean a float to an integer?
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2016-02-12T10:12:29Z dreamaddict: I guess an int would work...the code I am using wants specifically a (signed-byte 32)
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2016-02-12T10:13:45Z dreamaddict: also, how is it that (list (values 2 3 5)) => 2
2016-02-12T10:13:52Z dreamaddict: there is something about values that I am not quite getting...
2016-02-12T10:14:14Z dreamaddict: I meant (list (values 2 3 5)) => (2)
2016-02-12T10:15:20Z splittist: multiple values are not a list. Unless the recipient (as it were) is specifically looking for multiple values, it will just take the first one.
2016-02-12T10:15:37Z moore33: clhs multiple-value-list
2016-02-12T10:15:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm
2016-02-12T10:16:13Z moore33: dreamaddict: If you want to turn multiple values into a list, use multiple-value-list.
2016-02-12T10:16:33Z splittist: (signed-byte 32) means the set of integers representable in two's complement form in a byte of 32 bits
2016-02-12T10:16:51Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698088066628587520 (current version of the graph)
2016-02-12T10:17:08Z dreamaddict: in that case, converting to integer will be just fine
2016-02-12T10:17:26Z dreamaddict: moore33:  but I am wondering...why does it work like that?
2016-02-12T10:19:44Z moore33: dreamaddict: It's a mechanism for returning multiple values that is potentially much more efficient than returning lists or a struct or something.
2016-02-12T10:19:54Z splittist: jackdaniel: maybe SICL should be light green - active but not complete?
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2016-02-12T10:20:19Z Posterdati: hi
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2016-02-12T10:20:51Z jackdaniel: splittist: I'm still thinking how to mark the state of compliance. Mixing this with activity colours might be confusing. I think about borders around the elipses
2016-02-12T10:21:03Z moore33: dreamaddict: For example, the results could be returned in multiple registers. Today one might expect a compiler to optimize the return of a list, but 30 years ago that wasn't happening.
2016-02-12T10:21:04Z Posterdati: is there anyone using macports emacs 24.5? I've got problem using it with slime: when I launch it freezes, I have to kill it and reload
2016-02-12T10:22:19Z easye: Posterdati: I am using Macports SLIME w/o freezing.  Are your using Macports SLIME as  well?
2016-02-12T10:22:31Z synchromesh: Posterdati: I'm using MacPorts Emacs 24.5.1, I haven't noticed any problems with SLIME.
2016-02-12T10:22:32Z jackdaniel: like solid border = full ANSI, strokes = cltl2, dots = incomplete, no border = subset. But this implicates a problem, how to identify compliance of all of them :)
2016-02-12T10:23:02Z Posterdati: easye: no I quickinstalled it (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
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2016-02-12T10:23:25Z Posterdati: synchromesh: problem is when I start emacs
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2016-02-12T10:23:41Z synchromesh: Posterdati: Same here. Do you have things loaded via hooks that you could comment out?
2016-02-12T10:23:55Z Posterdati: the slime stuffs
2016-02-12T10:23:57Z synchromesh: Posterdati: Do you start SLIME automatically at startup?
2016-02-12T10:24:03Z Posterdati: if I comment them it starts
2016-02-12T10:24:14Z Posterdati: there's an error on starting
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2016-02-12T10:25:03Z synchromesh: Posterdati: If you start Emacs then say 'M-x slime' while watching *Messages* it should make it easier to see any error messages. Which message are you seeing?
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2016-02-12T10:28:19Z Posterdati: synchromesh: seems ok now
2016-02-12T10:28:24Z Posterdati: synchromesh: no error!
2016-02-12T10:28:26Z splittist: jackdaniel: that makes sense.
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2016-02-12T10:28:54Z Posterdati: synchromesh: I did emacs --debug-init
2016-02-12T10:29:02Z synchromesh: Posterdati: Heisenbugs, great! :)
2016-02-12T10:29:27Z Posterdati: no errors!
2016-02-12T10:29:33Z splittist: jackdaniel: dot dash for CDR3 compliance, + . - for extensible sequences ... (:
2016-02-12T10:29:33Z Posterdati: we will see
2016-02-12T10:30:27Z jackdaniel: splittist: sounds like a mundane thing to check among the implementations. AMOP, GRAY, :D
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2016-02-12T10:50:33Z jdz: Posterdati: i'm using emacs-mac from homebrew
2016-02-12T10:50:49Z jdz: works like a charm
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2016-02-12T12:00:39Z jackdaniel: how complete (in a sense of ansi compliance) is mezzano?
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2016-02-12T12:09:21Z froggey: jackdaniel: a rough guess, maybe 60% compliant. a lot of existing code can run unmodified, but less frequently used features are missing (method combinations, as one example)
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2016-02-12T12:10:34Z jackdaniel: froggey: thanks
2016-02-12T12:10:58Z jackdaniel: I'm now marking which implementations are complaint, which strive to and which implement only a subset
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2016-02-12T12:35:50Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698122773214920704 (if you catch any bugs on the diagram, please tell)
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2016-02-12T12:39:12Z joga: jackdaniel, a very nice graph
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2016-02-12T12:39:52Z joga: I couldn't tell if there's bugs but I like how it's clear and informative
2016-02-12T12:40:46Z jackdaniel: joga: thanks :)
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2016-02-12T12:58:42Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: There are three XLISP versions, which are more or less incompatible to each other. XLISP1 and XLISP2 belong to the lisp2 family, while XLISP3 is a Scheme derivate. See <http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=784&p=4874#p4874>
2016-02-12T12:58:42Z edgar-rft: Nyquist (used in the Audacity audio editor) is XLISP2 extended with audio functions. See <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/music/web/music.software.html>
2016-02-12T12:58:42Z edgar-rft: Since XLISP-STAT had been "replaced" by the R language I don't know a single project other than Nyquist that uses XLISP anymore.
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2016-02-12T13:01:49Z edgar-rft: Correction: XLISP-PLUS is not dead, the most recent update is from December 2015, see <http://almy.us/xlisp.html>
2016-02-12T13:02:14Z jackdaniel: edgar-rft: thanks. I've encountered that info. Just put xlisp into the same bag because I've treated David Betz line as one  (despite the rewrites), and xlisp-plus as a second one
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2016-02-12T13:02:50Z edgar-rft: I only wanted to say
2016-02-12T13:03:01Z jackdaniel: I know, I've marked it as bit-rot, because changes are small and once per 3-4 years, unless I misunderstood something, but it's not marked as obsolete due to that activity
2016-02-12T13:03:08Z jackdaniel: edgar-rft: yeah, I'm grateful for that :)
2016-02-12T13:03:14Z jackdaniel: I'm just explaining myself
2016-02-12T13:03:37Z edgar-rft: I only wanted to say that XLISP is not important anymore. Don't waste too much time with it :-)
2016-02-12T13:03:52Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-02-12T13:04:25Z jackdaniel: at start I've confused xlisp with xLisp excercises btw
2016-02-12T13:04:41Z jackdaniel: which project is very active, but not an implementation
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2016-02-12T13:05:38Z edgar-rft: I think this kind of eternal confusions were one of the reason to create the Common Lisp standard. In the 1970s it must have been even worse than today.
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2016-02-12T13:19:01Z synchromesh: jackdaniel: Nice diagram! FWIW http://www.lispworks.com/lw-history.html says "LispWorks's distant origins include Spice Lisp". According to http://www.cons.org/cmucl/credits.html CMUCL "started out as Spice Lisp". Which suggests a common ancestor rather than a straight CMUCL -> LW link.
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2016-02-12T13:22:26Z moore33: jackdaniel: I too was wondering if you were interested in the non-Common Lisp ancestors of the various lisps.
2016-02-12T13:23:46Z jackdaniel: moore33: no, it would make graph waaay bigger,back to LISP 1.5 :) but spice evolved into cmucl, right?
2016-02-12T13:24:32Z moore33: jackdaniel:Yes.
2016-02-12T13:25:08Z jackdaniel: synchromesh: thanks, didn't know that :) I'll leave it that way, because I don't want to include non-CL ancestors (and spice became cmucl after all). But yeah, it seems it is slightly incorrect
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2016-02-12T13:35:06Z synchromesh: jackdaniel: Fair enough too!
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2016-02-12T17:22:55Z jasom wishes it were possible to download all of his pastes from paste.lisp.org
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2016-02-12T17:26:37Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-02-12T17:27:07Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-02-12T17:27:17Z beach: splittist: Thanks for the comment on the paper.  I attempted to add a discussion on conformance.  If you have time, please have a look.  No rush, of course.
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2016-02-12T17:30:47Z mordocai: jasom: Web scraping!
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2016-02-12T17:30:59Z mordocai: Cause that is SOO much fun...
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2016-02-12T17:32:31Z moore33: beach: You have a paper on LOOP?
2016-02-12T17:32:41Z beach: I do, yes.
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2016-02-12T17:32:54Z beach: Or, rather, I will, if all goes well.
2016-02-12T17:33:04Z moore33: Cool.
2016-02-12T17:33:47Z jackdaniel: beach: about compliance or rather implementation and performance??
2016-02-12T17:33:51Z jackdaniel: s/??/?/
2016-02-12T17:34:39Z beach: Hold on, I'll show you.  It's only a few lines long that discussion.
2016-02-12T17:35:00Z beach: http://metamodular.com/loop.pdf
2016-02-12T17:35:19Z beach: section 2.1 on MIT LOOP
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2016-02-12T17:36:09Z beach: Oh, now that I think about it, you may have fixed this non-conforming behavior in ECL since last time I downloaded it.
2016-02-12T17:36:51Z moore33: I will give it more of a look-over later.
2016-02-12T17:36:53Z beach: And, while I remember, that PDF is a draft as they typically are a week or two before the submission deadline.
2016-02-12T17:37:16Z beach: So don't take it as the camera ready version quite yet.
2016-02-12T17:37:32Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, I've read about this non-conformance on the ML of ECL
2016-02-12T17:37:43Z jackdaniel: ECL was conformant, but many libs depended on this incorrect behavior
2016-02-12T17:37:53Z jackdaniel: because they tested on some other implementations
2016-02-12T17:38:19Z beach: So you felt you had to keep it as it is?
2016-02-12T17:38:22Z moore33: bbl
2016-02-12T17:38:23Z jackdaniel: and it is deliberely wrong to make libs work (as far as I remember)
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2016-02-12T17:38:33Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2016-02-12T17:43:10Z beach: jackdaniel: That particular section only makes the paper a little bit more exciting.  It is not the essence of it.  The essence of the paper is the use of combinator parsing for parsing the clauses, and of standard instances to represent the result of the parse.
2016-02-12T17:43:28Z jackdaniel: I see that your proposed implementation heavily utilizes CLOS
2016-02-12T17:43:41Z beach: Yes.  Of course! :)
2016-02-12T17:43:45Z jackdaniel: so it requires very performant CLOS implementation
2016-02-12T17:43:54Z beach: It is not a "proposed" implementation.  It is the existing one.
2016-02-12T17:44:17Z beach: Only if you want your compiler to be blazingly fast when it macroexpands LOOP.
2016-02-12T17:44:23Z beach: There is no CLOS at runtime of course.
2016-02-12T17:44:35Z jackdaniel: right
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2016-02-12T17:45:00Z jackdaniel: by "proposed" I meant as a proposal to include in different implementations as well
2016-02-12T17:45:08Z jackdaniel: it's SICL's goal, right? :)
2016-02-12T17:45:12Z beach: Right.
2016-02-12T17:45:21Z axion: does (declaim (optimize ...)) affect the compiler for the duration of the code loaded, or just on a per-file basis?
2016-02-12T17:45:28Z beach: No suggestion to include it in other implementations is mentioned in the paper.
2016-02-12T17:45:32Z jackdaniel: btw, did you see my graph of CL implementatiosn?
2016-02-12T17:45:39Z beach: I did, yes.
2016-02-12T17:45:41Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, I'm just asking
2016-02-12T17:45:44Z beach: Not the latest version, perhaps.
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2016-02-12T17:46:39Z jackdaniel: this is the last one https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698157022483771392
2016-02-12T17:46:40Z beach: jackdaniel: I think this my theme in recent papers: I know how to make generic dispatch very fast (see ILC paper).  Therefore, I think we should use generic functions more in order to obtain modularity, maintainability, etc.
2016-02-12T17:47:22Z jackdaniel: beach: I agree in general
2016-02-12T17:47:57Z beach: You can't afford to agree because you are not (yet) using the SICL generic dispatch technique. :)
2016-02-12T17:48:00Z jackdaniel: (by "in general" I mean that for instance ECL's CLOS implementation would need some work to improve performance before attempts of taking such approach)
2016-02-12T17:48:06Z beach: Right.
2016-02-12T17:48:12Z beach: Nice graph!
2016-02-12T17:48:16Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
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2016-02-12T17:51:10Z beach: It is pretty damn impressive that graph, I mean the way it illustrates the huge activity in this domain over the years.
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2016-02-12T17:53:14Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back briefly later.
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2016-02-12T17:55:12Z jackdaniel: uff, cl-test-grid finished run on 4 ECL versions (last release C and bytecode plus RC2 C and bytecode) - it was working for >30h
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2016-02-12T17:56:02Z Shinmera: axion: ASDF does some stuff to try and restore defaults, but generally once you've declaimed it it sticks around.
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2016-02-12T18:17:12Z White_Flame: Are there some good examples of server-side events in Hunchentoot anywhere?
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2016-02-12T19:16:31Z muzzle: exit
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2016-02-12T19:16:52Z jackdaniel: unbound
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2016-02-12T19:19:17Z axion: Shinmera: thanks
2016-02-12T19:19:50Z Shinmera: axion: on sbcl you can use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy to make sure it sticks around even in the presence of local declarations or declaims.
2016-02-12T19:20:12Z Shinmera: This is especially useful to restrict the debug level to 3 on your development environments and such.
2016-02-12T19:20:35Z axion: I was just curious what the standard defines; if i should put like declarations at the top of each file or what
2016-02-12T19:21:00Z Shinmera: you should use declarations on a per-function/block basis.
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2016-02-12T19:21:37Z axion: i delcaim ftypes per function, but want to set (speed 3) globally as it proved useful everywhere
2016-02-12T19:22:17Z Shinmera: Please don't put it into library code though.
2016-02-12T19:22:42Z Shinmera: your init file might be a good place instead.
2016-02-12T19:22:59Z axion: why is that?
2016-02-12T19:23:20Z Shinmera: because it would leak over into other code
2016-02-12T19:23:29Z Shinmera: since a declaim is, after all, global.
2016-02-12T19:23:33Z axion: aha, makes sense
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2016-02-12T19:45:57Z jjkola: hi
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2016-02-12T20:01:04Z jasom: I wish there were a way to trap on a special variable being bound
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2016-02-12T20:01:46Z jasom: I have done a case-insensitive grep on every file in the system and can't find it being bound to anything other than nil, but when I print the value, sometimes it's non-nil
2016-02-12T20:01:54Z jasom: ooh, I can break if it's non-nil...
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2016-02-12T20:09:05Z jasom: now I wish I could tell where a dynamic binding was established from a backtrace
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2016-02-12T20:25:58Z jasom: I deleted all references to the variable, (including defvar) and now the symbol is not interned after loading the system, but is interned after running the code that was binding the value.  Someone is being very evil
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2016-02-12T20:30:43Z KriSstaL: hola
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2016-02-12T20:33:37Z mordocai: I love that there is a person who hangs out here with the nick someone. Makes for fun statements sometimes. They probably get a lot of notifications
2016-02-12T20:33:59Z KriSstaL: how are you?
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2016-02-12T20:34:46Z blasto-pod: so why is lisp better?
2016-02-12T20:35:05Z jasom: blasto-pod: better than what?
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2016-02-12T20:37:09Z blasto-pod: java and node.js
2016-02-12T20:37:21Z blasto-pod: springmvc
2016-02-12T20:37:32Z blasto-pod: tomcat
2016-02-12T20:37:48Z mordocai: because it isn't java
2016-02-12T20:37:53Z mordocai: or javascript
2016-02-12T20:38:06Z pjb: blasto-pod: because it's a homoiconic meta-programming programming language.
2016-02-12T20:38:42Z pjb: blasto-pod: those properties are such that even if lisp was the worst programming language, it would still be the best, because you could seamlessly improve it all the time.
2016-02-12T20:38:55Z pjb: blasto-pod: and lisp has been improved all the time since 1959…
2016-02-12T20:39:27Z blasto-pod: :)
2016-02-12T20:39:31Z blasto-pod: awesome!
2016-02-12T20:39:33Z jasom: blasto-pod: lisp isn't a web framework nor a web application server, so I can't really compare it to springmvc nor tomcat
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2016-02-12T20:39:59Z mood: mordocai: I did a quick grep, the word has been said here some 2500 times the start of 2014. That's definitely more often than my common-word nick
2016-02-12T20:40:38Z jasom: mood: what fraction of your mentions would you say are actually people talking to you?
2016-02-12T20:42:47Z mood: jasom: Hmm, I'd guess between 1/8th and 1/4th or so. Mentions of the word "mood" seem to come in bursts though. ZNC logs mentions separately for me, and some days when I log on there are multiple drive-by mentions, while most days there are none
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2016-02-12T20:47:26Z jjkola: good night
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2016-02-12T20:54:05Z Opodeldoc 's mood is greatly enhanced by someone's coffee
2016-02-12T20:54:43Z mood: Opodeldoc: BURN    (:
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2016-02-12T21:15:12Z blasto-pod: I really dislike this whole java and node.js thing
2016-02-12T21:15:23Z blasto-pod: i am guna quit this silly job
2016-02-12T21:16:14Z mordocai: blasto-pod: I would recommend finding a new job first
2016-02-12T21:16:29Z blasto-pod: you sound like my dad
2016-02-12T21:16:31Z blasto-pod: :)
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2016-02-12T21:23:42Z blasto-pod is now known as MrTrump
2016-02-12T21:23:47Z MrTrump: :)
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2016-02-12T22:11:14Z ralt: uh
2016-02-12T22:11:19Z ralt: shelly is really nice.
2016-02-12T22:11:34Z ralt: (this one: https://github.com/fukamachi/shelly)
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2016-02-12T22:18:43Z mood: ralt: It's also, last I heard, considered deprecated in favor of Roswell (though I can't find where I read that now)
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2016-02-12T22:20:32Z ralt: mood: uh?
2016-02-12T22:20:46Z ralt: roswell manages installed lisp implementations
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2016-02-12T22:20:59Z ralt: shelly is a way to run lisp commands from the shell
2016-02-12T22:21:24Z ralt: aka "shly ql:system-apropos foo" will run (ql:quickload "foo")
2016-02-12T22:21:33Z ralt: err, (ql:system-apropos "foo")
2016-02-12T22:21:40Z mood: Hmm, I see. Not sure what I read then
2016-02-12T22:22:24Z ralt: I'm using it embedded in an application, so that I can run lisp functions from the shell
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2016-02-12T22:25:45Z jasom: I use cl-launch for that
2016-02-12T22:26:42Z ralt: jasom: you could see shelly as a shell-specific lisp DSL
2016-02-12T22:26:46Z mood: ralt: Found it, on the Roswell wiki, on the comparisons page: 'Re: Shelly, the author (Fukamachi) declared (to be precise, “I think I heard him saying”) it as deprecated and “dead” by himself.'
2016-02-12T22:26:48Z mood: Kind of vague
2016-02-12T22:27:21Z ralt: hard to be more vague
2016-02-12T22:27:33Z ralt: but thanks, gonna look
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2016-02-12T22:28:38Z mood: I use cl-launch as well, but getting it working has been harder than it should be.
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2016-02-12T22:42:06Z mood: The lparallel documentation mentions that submit-timeout and cancel-timeout are deprecated in favor of the :timeout option to try-receive-result. Am I missing something or does that do something completely different?
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2016-02-13T02:56:54Z fewdea__: greetings all. I'm using postmodern for database. I know it doesn't do object relational stuff, but I'd like to implement some of that functionality myself. Postmodern implements adds a metaclass to standard classes. What topics should I research if I wanted to extend or alter the functionality of the metaclass? is that a thing?
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2016-02-13T03:37:21Z spyrosoft: If a function returns multiple values, but you only need one of them, how do you access it?
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2016-02-13T03:43:36Z fewdea: idk if it's the right way to do it, but I use (nth 1 (multiple-value-list (func-name)))
2016-02-13T03:43:50Z Bike: clhs nth-value
2016-02-13T03:43:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2016-02-13T03:44:04Z Bike: so, (nth-value 1 (func-name))
2016-02-13T03:44:34Z fewdea: Bike, what about functions that don't return their values in a list?
2016-02-13T03:44:48Z Bike: Uh, what?
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2016-02-13T03:45:12Z fewdea: i know there's some out there... it's not from standard library, but split-sequence is one of them
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2016-02-13T03:45:28Z Bike: I don't even know what you're trying to say.
2016-02-13T03:45:49Z fewdea: there are functions that return multiple values, but the multiple values are not in a list
2016-02-13T03:46:04Z Bike: multiple values aren't lists.
2016-02-13T03:46:19Z |3b|: if it returns multiple values not in a list, use nth-value
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2016-02-13T03:46:27Z fewdea: oooh. nth-value  ... i misread
2016-02-13T03:46:28Z |3b|: or just use it directly if you want the 0th value
2016-02-13T03:46:30Z blub: like the hypserpec says, (nth-value n form) ==  (nth n (multiple-value-list form))
2016-02-13T03:46:37Z blub: if you were using the latter the former will work
2016-02-13T03:46:59Z fewdea: nice! i was using nth with multiple-value-list
2016-02-13T03:47:14Z spyrosoft: Awesome. I didn't know nth-value existed. Thanks!
2016-02-13T03:48:37Z fewdea: right? there's like 700+ functions in the cl package. it's absurd. I feel like i'll always be finding out about new ones
2016-02-13T03:49:14Z spyrosoft: Yay for IRC!
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2016-02-13T04:29:04Z jason_m: i've got a mapcan form that crashes sbcl.  i've checked that none of the lists being nconc'd have the same address.  I'm not sure what else to look for.  it works fine in clisp.
2016-02-13T04:30:02Z |3b|: are any of the lists literals? (quoted or otherwise directly included in the source)
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2016-02-13T04:31:21Z jason_m: |3b|: initially they were literals, created in a macro, putting them into place with ,(mapcar ...) but i've changed that to (list ,@mapcar(...)).  when they were literals, i could see that they had the same address.
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2016-02-13T04:36:42Z jason_m: hmm, for some reason the change to the macro didn't take effect.  i restarted sbcl, reloaded the file and we're good now
2016-02-13T04:36:59Z jason_m: i recompiled several times, no errors, no warnings
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2016-02-13T06:00:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-13T07:17:49Z jackdaniel: hello o/
2016-02-13T07:19:35Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2016-02-13T07:21:07Z jackdaniel: I've added a few tests to ansi-tests finally yesterday :)
2016-02-13T07:22:03Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/merge_requests/3/diffs
2016-02-13T07:23:36Z beach: Great!
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2016-02-13T07:51:44Z yarl: Hi, I'm quite confuse about why http://pastebin.com/awdv0HWC works.
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2016-02-13T07:52:05Z yarl: if the macro switch is written:
2016-02-13T07:52:17Z yarl: (defmacro switch (name) `(defvar ,name (make-instance 'switch :name ,name)))
2016-02-13T07:52:25Z yarl:  this doesn't work
2016-02-13T07:52:33Z yarl:  but I can write it:
2016-02-13T07:52:41Z yarl: (defmacro switch (name) `(defvar ,name (make-instance 'switch :name ',name)))
2016-02-13T07:52:52Z yarl: Do you see what I mean?
2016-02-13T07:53:04Z yarl: I suppose it's obvious for you guys.
2016-02-13T07:53:38Z Bike: okay, so with the first one, (switch swi) expands into (defmacro swi (make-instance 'switch :name swi)), correct?
2016-02-13T07:53:45Z Bike: do you see the problem with that code?
2016-02-13T07:53:56Z yarl: yes
2016-02-13T07:54:03Z yarl: swi's not bounded
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2016-02-13T07:54:31Z Bike: Oh. So you're wondering why this third definition works, okay, sorry.
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2016-02-13T07:54:45Z yarl: No
2016-02-13T07:54:55Z Bike: no?
2016-02-13T07:54:55Z yarl: What I paste works
2016-02-13T07:55:06Z Bike: right, you're wondering why the definition in the paste works?
2016-02-13T07:55:12Z yarl: yeah
2016-02-13T07:55:17Z Bike: and it's a third definition.
2016-02-13T07:55:28Z yarl: Ok
2016-02-13T07:55:32Z Bike: (switch swi) expands into (defvar swi #<SWI ...>)
2016-02-13T07:55:41Z Bike: as in, an actual object is in the expansion.
2016-02-13T07:55:58Z Bike: the object being made by the macroexpander, of course.
2016-02-13T07:56:12Z yarl: yes
2016-02-13T07:56:24Z Bike: so what's the confusion?
2016-02-13T07:57:07Z yarl: Well, what is the actual expression used to build #<SWI ...> object?
2016-02-13T07:57:17Z yarl: it uses swi
2016-02-13T07:57:20Z yarl: unquoted
2016-02-13T07:57:35Z yarl: why doesn't it yell at me it is unbound
2016-02-13T07:58:01Z yarl: s/it is unbound/that it is unbound/
2016-02-13T07:58:04Z Bike: The thing that needs to be bound is "name". And it is bound, to the symbol named "SWI".
2016-02-13T07:58:15Z Bike: Because the make-instance is being evaluated in the macroexpander function.
2016-02-13T07:58:28Z yarl: allrigth!
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2016-02-13T07:58:47Z yarl: Yeah thanks a lot Bike
2016-02-13T07:58:50Z yarl: :)
2016-02-13T07:58:56Z Bike: the symbol "SWI" does not need to be looked up by either the expander or the expansion, see.
2016-02-13T07:59:12Z Bike: expanders are just normal functions. once you realize this macros get a lot easier to understand.
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2016-02-13T09:49:31Z pjb: yarl: also, you might want to use defparameter instead of defvar, otherwise you'll wonder why (switch *a*) (switch *a*) leaves *a* bound to the first instance.
2016-02-13T09:50:02Z pjb: yarl: also, you might want to put your bindings somewhere else altogether, since creating special variables willy-nilly can lead to some surprises downhill.
2016-02-13T09:50:44Z pjb: Notably, since you don't name it define-switch, it's assumed that you intend to use it not on the toplevel, and there, defvar and defparameter won't do what you want.
2016-02-13T09:51:19Z pjb: (defun f () (switch a) a) --> compilation warning, undefined variable a.
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2016-02-13T09:55:50Z ralt: how can I get the raised condition in a restart-case?
2016-02-13T09:55:59Z yarl: pjb, defvar is sufficiant for now, but yeah good advice, I know the difference between the 2. I actually use it on toplevel (probably bad naming). I'm now thinking about your last comment, let me think
2016-02-13T09:56:43Z ralt: e.g. (restart-case (code-that-throws) (continue () :report "foo" (#| How to get the condition there? |#)))
2016-02-13T09:57:24Z Shinmera: restarts can be invoked without there being a need for a condition at all.
2016-02-13T09:57:39Z Shinmera: but you can add an argument to your restart and force whoever wants to invoke it to pass an object along.
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2016-02-13T09:57:57Z ralt: err, how?
2016-02-13T09:58:10Z ralt: (good to know, didn't think about the no condition restart.)
2016-02-13T09:58:25Z Shinmera: add a symbol to the lambda-list of the restart?
2016-02-13T09:58:32Z Shinmera: that's what it's there for?
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2016-02-13T09:59:44Z ralt: hm
2016-02-13T09:59:48Z ralt: trying to read clhs...
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2016-02-13T10:00:35Z Shinmera: Also-- why do you want to get the condition in your restart?
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2016-02-13T10:01:27Z ralt: Shinmera: I'm sending some metadata with the condition, and the restart can play with that
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2016-02-13T10:01:51Z ralt: (namely, I'm sending a symbol that I want to be able to remove from a hash table in the restart)
2016-02-13T10:02:12Z Shinmera: Sounds like you should instead pass that symbol to the restart.
2016-02-13T10:02:30Z Shinmera: That way the restart remains useful outside of a condition context.
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2016-02-13T10:02:50Z ralt: how?
2016-02-13T10:03:06Z ralt: that's what I don't see how to do... passing an argument to a restart
2016-02-13T10:03:15Z Shinmera: clhs invoke-restart ?
2016-02-13T10:03:17Z Shinmera: clhs invoke-restart
2016-02-13T10:03:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm
2016-02-13T10:04:29Z yarl: pjb, well, this works for me
2016-02-13T10:04:34Z yarl: (sbcl)
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2016-02-13T10:05:08Z yarl: But I modified a bit the thing, let me paste
2016-02-13T10:05:18Z ralt: Shinmera: I don't see how that's useful, sorry. invoke-restart only lets me choose a single restart case, no? I still want the user to choose whatever he wants.
2016-02-13T10:05:31Z ralt: (I think I'm vastly misunderstanding something.)
2016-02-13T10:06:07Z Shinmera: ralt: yeah but it accepts arguments to pass to the restart?
2016-02-13T10:06:34Z Shinmera: I'm still not quite understanding what you want to do exactly or why
2016-02-13T10:07:08Z Shinmera: Do you want to run code that only happens when an error occurs, no matter what the error?
2016-02-13T10:08:40Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: ping
2016-02-13T10:09:48Z yarl: pjb, http://pastebin.com/d2ZDqqMR
2016-02-13T10:10:41Z yarl: pjb, I don't see why it would work
2016-02-13T10:10:51Z yarl: s/would/wouldn't/
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2016-02-13T10:11:16Z ralt: Shinmera: something like this http://pastebin.com/2QP5dJUX
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2016-02-13T10:12:30Z ralt: I hope it properly explains what I mean?
2016-02-13T10:12:33Z Shinmera: ralt: and where exactly is that restart-case in your code?
2016-02-13T10:12:36Z Shinmera: where does it appear?
2016-02-13T10:12:45Z ralt: in a (main) function
2016-02-13T10:13:13Z Shinmera: why wouldn't it be in the call-hook function?
2016-02-13T10:13:33Z Shinmera: there it makes sense to continue or remove the hook on error. there you also know the hook.
2016-02-13T10:13:55Z ralt: I see
2016-02-13T10:14:05Z ralt: I thought I could pass the condition somehow to the restart
2016-02-13T10:14:11Z Shinmera: In the main function the restarts also might not at all even be applicable since an error completely unrelated to hooks might be happening.
2016-02-13T10:14:23Z Shinmera: you can, by passing it along with invoke-restart.
2016-02-13T10:14:59Z ralt: ... how?
2016-02-13T10:15:04Z ralt: I mean
2016-02-13T10:15:11Z ralt: I can pass it via invoke-restart
2016-02-13T10:15:15Z ralt: but I don't see where to get it
2016-02-13T10:15:34Z Shinmera: "where to get it"? what's "it"?
2016-02-13T10:15:41Z ralt: the condition
2016-02-13T10:15:59Z Shinmera: you have to be invoking a restart somewhere
2016-02-13T10:16:32Z ralt: in the call-hook function, say I'm having (invoke-restart 'hook-error (a hook)) instead of the (error)
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2016-02-13T10:16:40Z ralt: how can I get (a hook) in the restart-case?
2016-02-13T10:16:57Z Shinmera: it's in E ?
2016-02-13T10:17:07Z Shinmera: that's the only argument to it, so that's what its value will be
2016-02-13T10:17:31Z Shinmera: What am I missing here that's so hard to understand?
2016-02-13T10:18:22Z ralt: where do you pass E to the restart-case?
2016-02-13T10:18:32Z ralt: that's the information I'm missing
2016-02-13T10:18:38Z Shinmera: you just pasted the damn invoke-restart form
2016-02-13T10:19:02Z Shinmera: "Calls the function associated with restart, passing arguments to it. "
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2016-02-13T10:19:20Z Shinmera: ?¿ I am beyond confused, how could this be any more clear?
2016-02-13T10:19:27Z ralt: oh
2016-02-13T10:19:28Z ralt: but
2016-02-13T10:19:55Z ralt: that means that I can have (continue (e)) and I'll have the condition there, in the upper-level restart-case?
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2016-02-13T10:20:38Z kami: Good morning.
2016-02-13T10:21:00Z Shinmera: ralt: I still don't know what you're saying, but I think so?
2016-02-13T10:21:07Z blub: hi kami
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2016-02-13T10:21:41Z Shinmera: (restart-case (invoke-restart 'foo 0) (foo (arg) (print (1+ arg)))) => 1
2016-02-13T10:21:41Z ralt: Shinmera: it feels like a very complicated and frustrating discussion :)
2016-02-13T10:22:00Z ralt: I'll experiment on my own I think
2016-02-13T10:22:12Z ralt: Shinmera: ah!
2016-02-13T10:22:15Z Shinmera: a restart is just like a function that you can invoke.
2016-02-13T10:22:31Z ralt: but no, I don't want to invoke 'foo, I want to have all the restarts available
2016-02-13T10:23:04Z Shinmera: I give up
2016-02-13T10:23:16Z ralt: this is for an REPL experience
2016-02-13T10:23:21Z ralt: where I'll choose the restart to use
2016-02-13T10:23:55Z ralt: and when I choose the restart 'remove-hook, I want it to use the condition that triggered the restart-case, so that I can get the hook from there
2016-02-13T10:23:55Z Shinmera: Then, as I said, place the restarts where they make sense. As in, in a context where they already have access to the hook through the lexical environment.
2016-02-13T10:24:13Z Shinmera: Then you won't need to pass them and they'll only be active during a time where it makes sense for them to be active.
2016-02-13T10:24:26Z ralt: ok
2016-02-13T10:24:46Z ralt: so you can't pass a condition to the restart cases
2016-02-13T10:24:54Z ralt: without explicitly using invoke-restart
2016-02-13T10:25:16Z Shinmera: but you have to explicitly use invoke-restart to call a restart anyway
2016-02-13T10:25:23Z ralt: no?
2016-02-13T10:25:37Z Shinmera: yes you do. The debugger might do it for you, but it's how it happens.
2016-02-13T10:25:41Z ralt: calling (error) triggers the restart-case
2016-02-13T10:26:11Z ralt: ah...
2016-02-13T10:26:23Z ralt: well, thanks anyway
2016-02-13T10:26:27Z ralt: it's now clear
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2016-02-13T15:44:30Z drmeister: Is there a LOOP directive like "for" but that destructures multiple return values?
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2016-02-13T15:51:33Z loke``: drmeister: No
2016-02-13T15:52:00Z loke``: drmeister: You'll have t use something like FOR (x y) = (multiple-value-list (whatever))
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2016-02-13T16:35:35Z ralt: hm
2016-02-13T16:35:43Z ralt: the explanation of "dynamic scoping" looks very wrong here http://learnlispthehardway.org/book/1-01-05-symbols/
2016-02-13T16:37:41Z H4ns: how is it wrong?
2016-02-13T16:38:35Z ralt: H4ns: I only see lexical and global scoping there, no?
2016-02-13T16:39:08Z H4ns: ralt: there is no such thing as "global scope"
2016-02-13T16:39:27Z ralt: afaik, dynamic scoping is e.g. (defvar *foo* 1) (let ((*foo* 2)) (print *foo*) #| 2 |# ) (print *foo*) ;; 1
2016-02-13T16:39:33Z H4ns: ralt: what you might percieve as global scope is actually dynamic scope, and it can be userd in a local fashion.
2016-02-13T16:40:11Z H4ns: ralt: your example is correct, but it is not a definition of dynamic scope.
2016-02-13T16:40:28Z ralt: ah
2016-02-13T16:40:28Z H4ns: ralt: i do agree, though, that the text fails to point out what dynamic scrope really is about :)
2016-02-13T16:40:45Z ralt: do you have a link that would properly explain?
2016-02-13T16:41:33Z H4ns: ralt: try http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
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2016-02-13T16:44:19Z ralt: H4ns: well, PCL calls them "global variables" too, which is where I got my original opinion
2016-02-13T16:44:39Z ralt: then it says the advantage of the special variables is what I mentioned earlier
2016-02-13T16:45:04Z H4ns: hah, okay, then i don't have a good link, sorry.
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2016-02-13T16:45:38Z White_Flame: the variable itself, as defined by defvar/defparameter, could be considered to be "global scope", because anybody anywhere/anytime can refer to the variable.  The value binding, however, is dynamic
2016-02-13T16:45:38Z beach feels encouraged to work on his Common Lisp programming books.
2016-02-13T16:46:11Z ralt: what I mentioned earlier is called "dynamic binding" in PCL
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2016-02-13T16:46:38Z H4ns: you can think of "special" to be the same as "dynamic".  what defvar/parameter does is declare symbol globally as a special variable.  you can, however, also locally declare a symbol to be a special variable, hence special and global are not the same.
2016-02-13T16:46:45Z H4ns: it is only the declaration that is global.
2016-02-13T16:47:03Z ralt: how do you locally declare a symbol to be a special variable?
2016-02-13T16:47:17Z White_Flame: (locally (declare (special variable))) :)
2016-02-13T16:47:21Z H4ns: (let ((x foo)) (declare (special foo)) ...)
2016-02-13T16:47:32Z ralt: White_Flame: that's beautiful
2016-02-13T16:47:34Z H4ns: oops, the other way round.
2016-02-13T16:47:48Z ralt: H4ns: heh, got it.
2016-02-13T16:47:51Z ralt: thanks
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2016-02-13T17:22:26Z moore33: beach: Do you have Edi's new book?
2016-02-13T17:22:47Z moore33: Not exactly a programming book.
2016-02-13T17:22:56Z beach: Not yet, no.
2016-02-13T17:23:32Z moore33: beach: It's quite good.
2016-02-13T17:23:48Z beach: I need to order it.
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2016-02-13T18:00:31Z Th30n: Anyone using Qtools? How can I pass an argument to widget superclass constructor? Specifically, I want to set QGLFormat to 3.3, CoreProfile, for QGLWidget.
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2016-02-13T18:05:21Z Shinmera: Th30n: I forget. Let me check.
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2016-02-13T18:06:24Z Shinmera: Th30n: In this specific context however you can also just get the QGLContext object after instantiation and set the options, I believe.
2016-02-13T18:06:50Z Shinmera: Th30n: Haha, oh dear https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/widget.lisp#L76
2016-02-13T18:07:14Z Shinmera: If you have a good idea on how to solve this problem (I didn't, at the time) let me know.
2016-02-13T18:07:34Z Th30n: Heh :D At the moment I'm circumventing this by setting the default gl format.
2016-02-13T18:07:43Z Shinmera: Right
2016-02-13T18:07:57Z Shinmera: I'll think about it some more tonight. If I can come up with a solution I'll implement it asap.
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2016-02-13T18:09:20Z Th30n: For the last couple of hours I've been playing with Qtools, it looks really good! Kudos!
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2016-02-13T18:11:58Z Shinmera: Thanks, it's always great to hear when people have fun playing around!
2016-02-13T18:12:14Z Shinmera: Let me know if anything else sticks out to you and I'll see what I can do.
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2016-02-13T18:26:30Z Th30n: Shinmera: Perhaps the opengl example might be updated to override paintGL instead of paintEvent as it uses only gl calls to draw. That method is recommended in the qt4 docs in such a case.
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2016-02-13T18:37:54Z Shinmera: Th30n: PaintGL requires other GL setup stuff as far as I'm aware, whereas the paintEvent method with the QPainter does it for you
2016-02-13T18:38:28Z Shinmera: Either way, having a pure GL example would be neat too. If you can make it work, I'd welcome a PR
2016-02-13T18:41:18Z Th30n: Sure, probably will just send over what I'm working right now.
2016-02-13T18:41:56Z Shinmera: Cool, looking forward to it!
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2016-02-13T18:43:14Z Shinmera: Th30n: as for constructor args, right now I'm thinking of an extra class option (:qt-constructor ...) in which you can specify the slots to use as the arguments.
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2016-02-13T19:02:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: When using with-slots, is there any way to check if the slot actually is bound before accessing it?
2016-02-13T19:03:25Z Shinmera: clhs slot-boundp
2016-02-13T19:03:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_bo.htm
2016-02-13T19:04:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, this doesn't seem to work (with-slots (foo) bar (slot-boundp foo))
2016-02-13T19:05:00Z Shinmera: well no, because foo expands to (slot-value .. 'foo)
2016-02-13T19:05:10Z Shinmera: so you get (slot-boundp (slot-value .. 'foo)) which obviously won't work.
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2016-02-13T19:05:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know, my question is is there something to do about that, short of binding an exception handler
2016-02-13T19:06:05Z Bike: What would you want to happen if the slot was unbound?
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2016-02-13T19:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to do something like this:  (with-slots (foo) bar (if (boundp foo) foo (setf foo 2)))
2016-02-13T19:06:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, maybe there's a better way to do that.
2016-02-13T19:07:02Z Shinmera: you cannot because what foo expands to would be context dependant
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2016-02-13T19:08:29Z Bike: you could write an extension to allow something like (with-slots ((foo foo-boundp)) (if foo-boundp foo (setf foo 2))).
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2016-02-13T19:09:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, or I could just write a macro that automatically binds a handler-case.
2016-02-13T19:10:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like (handler-case foo (slot-not-bound (c) (setf foo 2)))
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2016-02-13T19:10:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, thanks, I was just trying to see if I was missing something.
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2016-02-13T19:42:51Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: I like having :initform nil, but I guess it's not always the best decision.
2016-02-13T19:43:06Z ralt: having unbounded slots can be a pain sometimes, like in your case
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2016-02-13T19:56:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: I've been thinking about that too, but the problem is that then you can't really store nil in the slot.
2016-02-13T19:58:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: I noticed you've abandoned linit because of issues with SBCL.  Did you try running the code on another implementation? Or, do you use sbcl extenstions.
2016-02-13T20:01:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: hm, it depends on sb-posix I guess.
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2016-02-13T20:13:00Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, and I don't really like OSI...
2016-02-13T20:13:28Z ralt: or, err, what was the lib to handle posix across implementations?
2016-02-13T20:13:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: osicat-posix?
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2016-02-13T20:15:45Z ralt: yes, that one
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2016-02-13T20:16:15Z ralt: err, no
2016-02-13T20:16:21Z ralt: it was a fat library
2016-02-13T20:17:52Z ralt: I guess I could just go with cffi
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2016-02-13T20:27:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be kinda nice to have some sort of common lisp wrapper around something like this: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
2016-02-13T20:27:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: and/or a reimplementation in CL.
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2016-02-13T20:39:58Z ralt: hm.
2016-02-13T20:40:10Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: would you mind being my rubber duck?
2016-02-13T20:40:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
2016-02-13T20:40:32Z ralt: I'm not sure how to tackle something
2016-02-13T20:40:42Z ralt: after ragequitting linit, I started writing a shell https://gitlab.com/ralt/crash
2016-02-13T20:40:49Z ralt: I'm at the point where it works quite well
2016-02-13T20:41:04Z ralt: I have implemented a small core + half a dozen of modules
2016-02-13T20:41:19Z ralt: I'm realizing that I need to implement pipes and redirections now
2016-02-13T20:41:56Z ralt: and I want to keep it simple. If I implemented them like in bash, I'd have to implement a real parser, or things like `foo "|"` would crash the thing.
2016-02-13T20:42:17Z ralt: on the other hand, I can't think of another way that would help me keep it simple
2016-02-13T20:42:50Z ralt: I thought about going like in lisp, aka `| el1 el2`, but then I need a way to keep el1 and el2 separate, so you need e.g. parentheses around them
2016-02-13T20:43:00Z ralt: aka `| (foo bar) (baz qux)`
2016-02-13T20:43:07Z ralt: ... which asks for another real parser
2016-02-13T20:43:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: could you wrap the command line with parentheses and use read somehow?
2016-02-13T20:43:24Z ralt: oh
2016-02-13T20:43:41Z z0d: ralt: maybe take a look at eshell (Emacs shell)
2016-02-13T20:44:18Z ralt: z0d: well, this one is obviously implementing a real parser, it parses real bash commands
2016-02-13T20:44:37Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: using (read) is actually a pretty good idea... let me fiddle with that
2016-02-13T20:44:38Z ralt: thanks!
2016-02-13T20:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: np
2016-02-13T20:45:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'll have to unbind the | character somehow . . .
2016-02-13T20:45:11Z Bike: or just have the shell syntax use parens itself? foo bar | baz qux becomes (| (foo bar) (baz qux))
2016-02-13T20:45:16Z Bike: it's a read macro, that's easy to do.
2016-02-13T20:45:27Z Bike: clhs |
2016-02-13T20:45:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for |.
2016-02-13T20:45:35Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: that's not an issue
2016-02-13T20:45:36Z Bike: er, no, it isn't, is it. dag.
2016-02-13T20:45:49Z ralt: my "hooks" functions get (command arguments next), where command will be "|"
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2016-02-13T20:46:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah.
2016-02-13T20:46:27Z ralt: ("arguments" is a list of arguments, and "next" is the next hook to call)
2016-02-13T20:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking if you wanted the standard syntax.
2016-02-13T20:46:50Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: ah, I see
2016-02-13T20:47:32Z ralt: well, that's doable, since I can do (read (append (list command) arguments))
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2016-02-13T20:47:44Z ralt: but indeed, I'd have to play correctly with |...
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2016-02-13T20:48:53Z ralt: ... which makes me realize that I *have* to do some parsing, at least to properly handle quotes/double quotes, so that they're in a single element of the arguments list.
2016-02-13T20:50:18Z ralt: which means I will already have the parser I need
2016-02-13T20:50:38Z ralt: I love rubber duck debugging.
2016-02-13T20:50:48Z ralt: hehe
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2016-02-13T20:51:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, the || reader thing could be a feature
2016-02-13T20:52:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. when you want to pass an argument to a command that contains spaces.
2016-02-13T20:52:21Z ralt: ?
2016-02-13T20:53:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: ie: find -iname |my documents| -exec |chmod 0777 {}|
2016-02-13T20:54:05Z ralt: ah, that
2016-02-13T20:54:18Z ralt: yup, I more and more like the idea of moving the parsing job to (read)
2016-02-13T20:54:32Z ralt: it would handle double quotes just as well
2016-02-13T20:54:41Z ralt: single quotes... not as much.
2016-02-13T20:54:47Z ralt: but that's something I can live with, I think
2016-02-13T20:56:12Z Bike: you can alter the reader to get single quote delimited strings. | is a bit harder is all.
2016-02-13T20:57:13Z ralt: I can also use another character. It's a brand new shell with brand new ideas (or stolen from the 70's), so it's fine
2016-02-13T20:57:27Z ralt: (involuntary stolen*)
2016-02-13T20:57:33Z ralt: involuntarily?
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2016-02-13T20:58:23Z Bike: i guess you can do it with | too b y changing the syntax type.
2016-02-13T20:58:42Z ralt: "b y"?
2016-02-13T20:58:54Z Bike: by
2016-02-13T20:58:59Z ralt: ah, sorry
2016-02-13T20:59:16Z ralt: err, the syntax type?
2016-02-13T20:59:41Z Bike: part of how the reader works
2016-02-13T20:59:43Z Bike: clhs 2.1.4
2016-02-13T20:59:43Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2016-02-13T21:00:12Z ralt: thanks, got some reading to do
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2016-02-13T21:44:48Z flip214: clhs conditions
2016-02-13T21:44:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for conditions.
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2016-02-13T21:48:21Z Quadrescence: you might say that specbot just signaled a condition
2016-02-13T21:48:21Z ralt: hehe
2016-02-13T21:49:50Z edgar-rft: flip214: you gave the wrong conditions
2016-02-13T21:53:18Z flip214: RESTART
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2016-02-13T22:08:22Z ralt: hm
2016-02-13T22:08:33Z ralt: the ".." is going to cause me trouble.
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2016-02-13T22:10:36Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: ping2
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2016-02-13T22:14:37Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: pong2! (you can just ask or leave it for minion, I use an irc bouncer so I'll get the message!
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2016-02-13T22:25:26Z phoe_krk: Oh yes, but I wanted to catch you online!
2016-02-13T22:25:46Z phoe_krk: You were rewriting some of pseudonyms' code. Do you still have the changes anywhere?
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2016-02-13T22:26:33Z phoe_krk: They're much better code than what I wrote. I want to merge them into what I already have and, once we have that, try to ask Xach about including them inside quicklisp.
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2016-02-13T22:28:07Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: They are on paste.lisp.org. I probably have them locally, let me check
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2016-02-13T22:31:02Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/303103 that was the gist of it. The core idea of pseudnoyms is good and would allow for portable package local nicknames so it would be good to polish and submit it to quicklisp
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2016-02-13T22:31:29Z phoe_krk: Yes, I think I can do that and essentially become the project's maintainer.
2016-02-13T22:31:54Z phoe_krk: Everyone begins somewhere after all.
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2016-02-13T22:40:03Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: iirc I also moved to an alist instead of hashtable as I don't think there will be many package nickames per package
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2016-02-13T22:44:39Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: precisely my idea when I was writing it
2016-02-13T22:45:08Z phoe_krk: but then I got hashtable'd upon discussing it around here :þ
2016-02-13T22:47:02Z phoe_krk: well
2016-02-13T22:48:05Z phoe_krk: if I find the time
2016-02-13T22:48:07Z phoe_krk: and I will find the time
2016-02-13T22:48:19Z phoe_krk: I'll make both versions for complainers' sake.
2016-02-13T22:48:50Z phoe_krk: So you can call (pseudonyms:set-type :hashmap) or (pseudonyms:set-type :alist)
2016-02-13T22:49:01Z phoe_krk: and it'll properly set the backend.
2016-02-13T22:49:10Z phoe_krk: Will be a fun exercise, so I'll do it.
2016-02-13T22:49:52Z phoe_krk: Make an abstraction layer above the underlying data type.
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2016-02-13T23:03:59Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: don't worry about that, at best just add a design-decisions.org to explain your choice. gtg, happy hacking!
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2016-02-13T23:17:30Z ralt: Bike: oh my, set-syntax-from-char is amazing :)
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2016-02-13T23:26:27Z gabriel_laddel: Could someone please inform me as to how I would write a (bootable) .iso file to a CD on linux? This shouldn't be difficult, and it works for USBs...
2016-02-13T23:27:08Z gabriel_laddel: Googling around however is turning up nothing but a bunch of "use XYZ gui on Ubuntu"
2016-02-13T23:28:28Z gabriel_laddel: har har!
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2016-02-13T23:28:29Z gabriel_laddel: got it
2016-02-13T23:28:30Z gabriel_laddel: thanks all
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2016-02-13T23:29:23Z phoe_krk: #lisp - the new #linux.
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2016-02-14T01:22:47Z albus: I  want to print a number with binary format.
2016-02-14T01:23:20Z albus: (format nil "~b" 234)
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2016-02-14T01:24:05Z albus: with 16bit
2016-02-14T01:24:34Z albus: it returns me: 11101010
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2016-02-14T01:24:56Z Bike: (format nil "~16,'0b" 234) will pad it out with 0s.
2016-02-14T01:24:56Z albus: but what i want is:0000000011101010
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2016-02-14T01:25:27Z albus: what should i do?
2016-02-14T01:25:54Z albus: 能输入中文吗?
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2016-02-14T01:28:55Z albus: any help?
2016-02-14T01:29:44Z Bike: i just told you an answer.
2016-02-14T01:34:52Z albus: O, sorry, I missed it.
2016-02-14T01:36:27Z albus: It works.Thank you so much.
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2016-02-14T04:04:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-14T04:06:12Z axion: morning beach
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2016-02-14T04:16:30Z Twylo: Hello
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2016-02-14T04:16:45Z beach: Hello Twylo.
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2016-02-14T04:34:15Z Fare: does anyone understand gcc linking issues?
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2016-02-14T04:34:31Z Fare: I'm trying to debug creating lisp binaries (sbcl-based) using bazel
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2016-02-14T04:59:44Z jasom: Fare: what's the problem?
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2016-02-14T05:03:46Z Fare: jasom: I have a gcc command to link the final bits together, but it's failing weirdly
2016-02-14T05:04:00Z jasom: Fare: output?
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2016-02-14T05:05:46Z Fare: I'm trying to debug https://github.com/qitab/bazelisp
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2016-02-14T05:06:53Z Fare:  http://paste.lisp.org/+6L1S
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2016-02-14T05:08:05Z Fare: I added an annotation with the contents of the params file
2016-02-14T05:09:02Z Fare: note that the system has a libgcc_s.so but not .a. Also I have no idea what in that command is telling the linker to produce a static output, or how that thing works inside google... I'll try to reproduce...
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2016-02-14T05:19:30Z Fare: wow, the corresponding command inside google is full of junk
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2016-02-14T05:24:40Z jasom: heh
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2016-02-14T05:25:12Z jasom: you *really* don't want to statically link sbcl with gcc
2016-02-14T05:25:25Z jasom: as the warning it shows indicates odd things may happen
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2016-02-14T05:29:30Z jasom: in general you wouldn't want to hard-code the rpath either like this is doing, but that should be a non-issue for a fully enclosed executable
2016-02-14T05:30:30Z Fare: looks like -static-libgcc might help
2016-02-14T05:30:56Z Fare: except I don't see any output where I specify the -o option
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2016-02-14T05:34:50Z jasom: seeing the contents of bazel-out/local_linux-fastbuild/bin/external/lisp__hello/hello.rt-2.params would be interesting
2016-02-14T05:35:21Z jasom: oh, it's annotated already
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2016-02-14T05:37:19Z jasom: I see nothing in that command either to indicate static linking, in fact -Wl,-Bdynamic suggests the opposite
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2016-02-14T10:42:52Z beach: Suppose I have two or more otherwise unrelated GIT repositories that have a file in common.  What would be a good way of making sure the file always has the same contents in both repositories?
2016-02-14T10:44:06Z beach: Lunch.  I'll look at possible suggest when I get back.
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2016-02-14T11:34:20Z Warlock_29A: beach: git submodules might help you.
2016-02-14T11:35:02Z beach: Interesting.  I'll look into those.  Thanks!
2016-02-14T11:37:02Z beach: Apparently, others have asked the same question, so Google gives me a lot of stuff to read as well.
2016-02-14T11:37:06Z beach: Thanks again.
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2016-02-14T11:41:08Z jackdaniel: beach: from my exp git subtrees are better suited for this
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2016-02-14T12:10:02Z ralt: jackdaniel: uh, subtrees let you split an existing repository while keeping history, I don't see how it helps to keep a file updated
2016-02-14T12:10:20Z ralt: (or is there something else they can be used for?)
2016-02-14T12:14:09Z jackdaniel: ralt: subtrees are like submodules, but are transparent for the repository users. Hence you may push only the subtree and pull the changes without splitting the repository
2016-02-14T12:14:36Z jackdaniel: submodules on the other hand put burden on all repository users, because they are managed in a different manner
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2016-02-14T12:14:43Z jackdaniel: then "normal" git repo
2016-02-14T12:15:09Z jackdaniel: s/then/than/
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2016-02-14T12:57:15Z ralt: hm
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2016-02-14T12:57:36Z ralt: how can I make : lose its meaning of "the part before is a package designator"?
2016-02-14T12:58:10Z ralt: (at read time)
2016-02-14T12:58:34Z jackdaniel: ralt: 'd\:3
2016-02-14T12:58:48Z jackdaniel: or '|d:3|
2016-02-14T12:59:50Z ralt: jackdaniel: I was thinking more along the lines of "how to change the constituent trait of a character?"
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2016-02-14T13:00:08Z jackdaniel: ralt: OK, then you can't
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2016-02-14T13:00:19Z ralt: what you're suggesting would have me do something along the lines of (ppcre:regex-replace-all ":" foo "\\:")
2016-02-14T13:01:51Z ralt: :(
2016-02-14T13:03:10Z jackdaniel: if you are parsing some non-lisp code, then you should write your own reader, if it's lisp you can't change ":" meaning, unless you explicitly say it's a symbol, like |SYMBOL:NaME|
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2016-02-14T13:04:20Z edgar-rft: the only way I know to change the constituent trait is using a modified readtable
2016-02-14T13:04:52Z ralt: edgar-rft: I'm already using a modified readtable to change the syntax type of a few chars, so that doesn't scare me
2016-02-14T13:05:12Z ralt: jackdaniel: when you say "write your own reader", do you mean doing my own lexing/parsing?
2016-02-14T13:05:32Z jackdaniel: ralt: you may ask pjb about the details, he wrote something like that
2016-02-14T13:06:01Z jackdaniel: edgar-rft: #\: isn't a reader macro
2016-02-14T13:06:15Z jackdaniel got to go o/
2016-02-14T13:07:27Z ralt: see you
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2016-02-14T13:10:30Z jackdaniel: macro character*
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2016-02-14T13:13:10Z edgar-rft: I'm afraid that jackdaniel is right (and I was wrong), because CLHS 2.1.4.2 says that "No mechanism is provided for changing the constituent trait of a character."
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2016-02-14T13:26:18Z ralt: pjb: I'd be glad if you had any resource (might be code) to implement a custom reader. Reusing most of Lisp reader would be nice, but any resource would be fine. Thanks!
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2016-02-14T13:32:10Z DeadTrickster: I want to add link to my lib here: http://www.cliki.net/Distributed
2016-02-14T13:32:16Z DeadTrickster: any ideas how to do it?
2016-02-14T13:32:58Z Shinmera: Add *(Distributed) somewhere on your article.
2016-02-14T13:34:10Z Shinmera: see http://www.cliki.net/Text%20Formatting
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2016-02-14T13:51:36Z papachan: just received Edmund Weitz's book and first impression it seems to be an excellent Common Lisp Book!
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2016-02-14T13:56:46Z loke``: papachan: Where/how did you order it?
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2016-02-14T14:00:32Z moore33: papachan: I agree. I can't say that I learned very much, but it is an excellent reference.
2016-02-14T14:07:09Z papachan: loke``: from amazon
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2016-02-14T14:34:35Z ralt: jackdaniel edgar-rft: ftr, here is what I went with: https://gitlab.com/ralt/crash/commit/c72c3d752c93f58deca1f951038e5f91c3f57920
2016-02-14T14:34:57Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, thx
2016-02-14T14:34:59Z ralt: I took pjb's reader and applied a one-line change to one of the functions
2016-02-14T14:35:21Z ralt: (so that the constituent trait would be copied too)
2016-02-14T14:36:36Z ralt: then I just had to do a (set-syntax-with-trait-from-char #\: #\*)
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2016-02-14T14:55:01Z jackdaniel: ralt: do you plan to make it portable? (your project) - there is number of portability libs to work across the implementations
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2016-02-14T15:12:46Z ralt: jackdaniel: yes, although that's not the priority for now
2016-02-14T15:13:37Z ralt: I use the non-specific stuff whenever possible (that I know) as long as it's not annoying to deal with
2016-02-14T15:14:42Z ralt: (e.g. using cffi:foreign-funcall "fork" is more annoying right now, sb-posix api is easier to work with
2016-02-14T15:15:32Z ralt: I don't know how to portably handle ctrl-c though.
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2016-02-14T15:19:51Z ralt: iirc, there was a lib to handle cross-platform posix (including fork), but it requires libfixposix, which I don't want to rely on because it's not easy to install everywhere (it's not in centos repos, for example)
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2016-02-14T15:21:38Z Xach_: that's iolib.
2016-02-14T15:22:35Z ralt: ah, my bad
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2016-02-14T15:25:16Z PuercoPop: ralt: pjb wrote a lisp reader portable lisp, quickload com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader
2016-02-14T15:25:29Z fe[nl]ix: ralt: what implementation do you use ?
2016-02-14T15:25:34Z Xach_: ralt: iolib uses libfixposix
2016-02-14T15:26:12Z ralt: PuercoPop I'm already using it
2016-02-14T15:26:23Z ralt: fe[nl]ix sbcl
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2016-02-14T15:26:55Z PuercoPop: ralt: what is the problem with : in lisp code that you are trying to fix?
2016-02-14T15:27:45Z fe[nl]ix: I'm thinking of distributing an sbcl with libfixposix compiled in, to ease distribution
2016-02-14T15:27:49Z ralt: PuercoPop I wanted to change its constituent trait so that it would be a normal symbol char
2016-02-14T15:27:50Z fe[nl]ix: would you consider using that ?
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2016-02-14T15:28:45Z ralt: fe[nl]ix well, since it's not iolib I need anyway... I don't actually need it.
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2016-02-14T15:29:26Z ralt: another project of mine would be interested though, you could make an sbcl binary for centos?
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2016-02-14T15:30:10Z ralt: specifically, https://github.com/ralt/hermes/issues/1
2016-02-14T15:30:22Z PuercoPop: ralt: in any context? wouldn't that make lisp code very hard to use?
2016-02-14T15:30:38Z ralt: but I guess that's an iolib issue more than sbcl/libfixposix
2016-02-14T15:31:11Z ralt: PuercoPop this is the context: https://gitlab.com/ralt/crash
2016-02-14T15:31:32Z ralt: every command line is (read)
2016-02-14T15:31:41Z ralt: afk
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2016-02-14T15:43:39Z PuercoPop: ralt: iiuc, lisp code is inserted after a #, wouldn't a reader macro for # be more appropriate? With lisp-reader you can subclass syntax-table and add another :after method that removes the +ct-package-marker+ from the ":" standard-characters (the index character description in the 58 in this case)
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2016-02-14T15:52:21Z ralt: PuercoPop: no, the # thing is just an extension
2016-02-14T15:52:33Z ralt: every line is (read), so e.g. "cd foo" is read
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2016-02-14T15:52:58Z ralt: the # is just a plugin that says "when it starts with #, invoke shelly"
2016-02-14T15:54:37Z ralt: PuercoPop: hm, subclass syntax-table sounds like a good idea...
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2016-02-14T16:21:13Z DeadTrickster: is the any way to edit page title on cliki?
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2016-02-14T16:22:18Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, ping :-)
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2016-02-14T16:26:01Z Shinmera: The page title is where the page is, so no/yes by moving it entirely.
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2016-02-14T16:51:56Z DeadTrickster: is it that hard to find lisp job really? not contract?
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2016-02-14T17:20:29Z p_l: DeadTrickster: yes and no. the hard way is finding a job advertised for lisp hackers and get it, although clojure helped there if yiu want to work in clojure
2016-02-14T17:21:33Z p_l: DeadTrickster: the other way around is to factor out language out of consideration altogether by getting contracts to build stuff for companies as complete systems
2016-02-14T17:22:22Z p_l: a cdrtain ferret-owning lisper did so succesfully for a long time
2016-02-14T17:23:09Z Fare: apparently, my local /usr/bin/ld really didn't like a -no-pie flag
2016-02-14T17:23:53Z Fare: even removing it, in the end I get a corrupted sbcl executable :-(
2016-02-14T17:24:11Z Fare: https://github.com/qitab/bazelisp
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2016-02-14T17:24:49Z p_l: Fare: might want to look at Gentoo patches - hardemned is rather strict on pie/pic, but they build sbcl
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2016-02-14T17:29:43Z DeadTrickster: p_l, that is exactly what I'm doing now. basically when people don't care I use CL
2016-02-14T17:29:52Z DeadTrickster: however looks like I want 'normal' job now
2016-02-14T17:30:49Z DeadTrickster: Fare, you finally released that beast, congrats!
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2016-02-14T18:22:33Z _JusSx_: Hi where can i find a reference manual of LISP?
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2016-02-14T18:24:47Z Opodeldoc: _JusSx_: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
2016-02-14T18:25:49Z _JusSx_: Opodeldoc: thanks
2016-02-14T18:25:56Z Opodeldoc: np
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2016-02-14T18:32:25Z p_l: minion: tell _JusSx_ about hyperspec
2016-02-14T18:32:25Z minion: _JusSx_: please look at hyperspec: The Common Lisp HyperSpec can be found at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/ - or go to the contents at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
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2016-02-14T18:42:15Z _JusSx_: p_l: thanks
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2016-02-14T18:42:59Z _JusSx_: is  minion  a bot? i hope it has been written in lisp
2016-02-14T18:43:26Z _JusSx_: minion: are you a bot"?
2016-02-14T18:43:26Z minion: are you a bot": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/are%20you%20a%20bot\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 40..
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2016-02-14T18:50:49Z Xach_: Opodeldoc: that is not good for CL
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2016-02-14T19:08:03Z p_l: _JusSx_: minion is indeed written in Common Lisp
2016-02-14T19:08:37Z _JusSx_: where can i find the  source code ?
2016-02-14T19:08:47Z _JusSx_: is it in github?
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2016-02-14T19:11:10Z p_l: I think minion's sources are (mostly) included in cl-irc
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2016-02-14T19:12:21Z p_l: otoh, it might have been specbot :)
2016-02-14T19:12:34Z Shinmera: He ain't here anymore anyhow
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2016-02-14T19:13:54Z p_l: the more I dig, the more it looks like specbot and minion were once the same
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2016-02-14T19:39:59Z Fare: DeadTrickster, except it doesn't work :-(
2016-02-14T19:40:20Z Fare: at least, the standalone binary functionality is subtly wrong
2016-02-14T19:41:28Z fewdea: anyone have opinions on a postgres ORM for lisp?
2016-02-14T19:42:35Z p_l: perec is pretty good but complex and idiosyncratic in code.... but awesome
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2016-02-14T19:44:56Z fewdea: i'll have a look at perec then. i've been coding for nearly two months using postmodern, but it's becoming more and more obvious that not having automatic relational objects are a problem. makes for clunky model-layer code
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2016-02-14T19:52:02Z vmonteco: Hello!
2016-02-14T19:53:05Z phoe_krk: Hey vmonteco
2016-02-14T19:54:09Z vmonteco: I'm reading the PCL, the functions chapter (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html) And I don't understand everything in the part about optionnal parameters, I unserstand the basics, but I don't understand what is the last example about. http://dpaste.com/0TWWYHW . what's the point here?
2016-02-14T19:54:19Z vmonteco: Hi phoe_krk  :)
2016-02-14T19:55:11Z Bike: it's not a function you'd actually use. it's just demonstrating the syntax of &key arguments, specifically that you can have a different keyword and variable name, defaults, and supplied-p parameters.
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2016-02-14T19:56:03Z phoe_krk: Basically, when defining an optional parameter, you can do it in three ways.
2016-02-14T19:56:34Z phoe_krk: a) place a symbol in its place and have it set to NIL when it's not supplied by the programmer,
2016-02-14T19:56:50Z vmonteco: Bike: Oh! I think I get it, this way I could have a keyword I use when calling the function, the value I enter after the keyword is bound to a variable and the name of the variable isn't the keyword?
2016-02-14T19:56:53Z phoe_krk: b) place a list of form (name default-value) and have it set to default-value when it's not supplied by the programmer,
2016-02-14T19:57:28Z Bike: vmonteco: yeah. for this one, if you call it like (foo :apple 9) it returns (9 0 0 nil).
2016-02-14T19:57:35Z Bike: i.e. a is bound to 9.
2016-02-14T19:57:40Z phoe_krk: c) place a list of form (name default-value is-it-supplied) and have it set to default-value when it's not supplied by the programmer and have is-it-supplied set to NIL. If it's supplied by the programmer, then the default value is ignored and is-it-supplied is set to T.
2016-02-14T19:58:15Z phoe_krk: This way you can check, inside the function, whether someone supplied an argument to it, or whether a function operates on a parameter's default value.
2016-02-14T19:58:37Z vmonteco: So : keyword -> function call side, what's after this keyword -> name of the variable inside the function?
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2016-02-14T19:58:53Z Bike: What?
2016-02-14T19:58:57Z phoe_krk: Exactly, what?
2016-02-14T19:59:03Z phoe_krk: I don't understand your question.
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2016-02-14T20:00:45Z vmonteco: (defun foo (&key ((:keyword bar))) bar), :keyword is used when calling foo, but bar remains inside the function code?
2016-02-14T20:01:48Z vmonteco: (sorry, I'm not a native speaker, I may say weird things sometimes :X)
2016-02-14T20:02:07Z phoe_krk: In the example you give, bar is just a local variable.
2016-02-14T20:02:35Z phoe_krk: If I understand correctly.
2016-02-14T20:02:50Z phoe_krk: If you call (foo) now, it returns what is given to it by :keyword. You don't provide a :keyword argument if you call (foo), so it returns NIL.
2016-02-14T20:03:07Z phoe_krk: If you call (foo :keyword 4), it returns 4.
2016-02-14T20:03:29Z phoe_krk: So baz doesn't leave the function indeed, it is its local variable. Its parameter, to be specific.
2016-02-14T20:03:34Z vmonteco: phoe_krk: In my example, I will call (foo :keyword value) and value will be bound to - local - variable bar? Is that correct?
2016-02-14T20:03:41Z phoe_krk: Yes.
2016-02-14T20:04:07Z phoe_krk: And, once the function returns, the baz value gets returned and afterwards, baz and its value get forgotten.
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2016-02-14T20:04:28Z vmonteco: Bike: phoe_krk: I get it now. :) Thank you, that's much clearer now!
2016-02-14T20:04:41Z phoe_krk: Unless you force it to get remembered by some means, but that's a whole different story.
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2016-02-14T20:06:07Z vmonteco: phoe_krk: To keep this local variable in the table of symbols? (<-- not sure about how to say this, sorry)
2016-02-14T20:06:16Z kpoi: They are bound locally like a closure: (funcall #'(lambda (c) c) 'x)
2016-02-14T20:06:23Z Bike: it's quite possible you're overthinking this
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2016-02-14T20:07:00Z vmonteco: Bike: That's possible, indeed. Plus, I'm still a beginner.
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2016-02-14T20:07:37Z Bike: you don't need to think about symbol tables. in the body of the funcion there's a local binding to "a", and the value for that binding is provided by the ":apple" argument in a call.
2016-02-14T20:08:07Z kpoi tests
2016-02-14T20:09:12Z vmonteco: Bike: That may be too soon for me. I think I'll just keep reading the PCL :) Anyway thank you all for the help!
2016-02-14T20:09:33Z phoe_krk: vmonteco: do you have any background in, let's say, C?
2016-02-14T20:09:36Z phoe_krk: Or C++?
2016-02-14T20:09:48Z kpoi: (funcall #'(lambda (&key c) c) :c 'x)
2016-02-14T20:10:00Z kpoi: Look at what that does.
2016-02-14T20:11:16Z kpoi:  
2016-02-14T20:11:17Z kpoi:  
2016-02-14T20:11:17Z kpoi: t
2016-02-14T20:11:17Z kpoi: t
2016-02-14T20:11:52Z vmonteco: phoe_krk: Yes, I have more experience in C but I also know some  C++ since this year.
2016-02-14T20:12:02Z phoe_krk: Let's say you have a int something () { ... }
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2016-02-14T20:12:21Z phoe_krk: If, inside the ..., you call, let's say, int a = 2048;, then you have a local variable called a.
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2016-02-14T20:12:47Z phoe_krk: Alternatively, if you go like int something_else (int a) {...}, you also have a local variable called a - but that variable is essentially a parameter to your function.
2016-02-14T20:13:31Z vmonteco: Yes
2016-02-14T20:13:43Z phoe_krk: Except that C doesn't (easily) let you add optional parameters to your functions. In Lisp, that's much easier, with &optional &key and so on.
2016-02-14T20:15:13Z phoe_krk: In Lisp, you can define a function so it can be called with any number of arguments - some of which you want to predict, some of which you don't want or need to.
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2016-02-14T20:16:51Z vmonteco: phoe_krk: Yes, but now I think I get it: I already knew how to use optionnal parameters the basic way, I was just wondering what was happening with the syntax in the last example (http://dpaste.com/0TWWYHW) but you guys perfectly answered my question. ^^
2016-02-14T20:17:27Z phoe_krk: Let me show you.
2016-02-14T20:17:37Z phoe_krk: (defun print-my-thing (thing &key (color nil color-set-p)) (if color-set-p (format t "A ~A ~A." color thing) (format t "A ~A." thing)))
2016-02-14T20:17:49Z phoe_krk: (print-my-thing "carousel")
2016-02-14T20:17:50Z phoe_krk: (print-my-thing "carousel" :color "blue")
2016-02-14T20:17:59Z phoe_krk: See what the last two lines do and why they do that.
2016-02-14T20:18:25Z phoe_krk: I explicitly call an if on the color-set-p. Look at what happens and why it happens.
2016-02-14T20:19:13Z phoe_krk: And, before anything, properly indent the defun.
2016-02-14T20:20:15Z kpoi: (defun print-my-thing (thing &key (color nil color-set-p))
2016-02-14T20:20:15Z kpoi: 	   (if color-set-p
2016-02-14T20:20:15Z kpoi: 	       (format t "A ~A ~A." color thing)
2016-02-14T20:20:15Z kpoi: 	       (format t "A ~A." thing)))
2016-02-14T20:20:18Z kpoi: here you go
2016-02-14T20:20:22Z phoe_krk: thanks kpoi
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2016-02-14T21:30:25Z francogrex: there is a sigificant decrease in power of lisp on github the following few months. Example since 2016-02-13 there are only 14 new lisp projects versus over 4000 for java and over 2000 for python. It was not like that last year!
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2016-02-14T21:48:44Z Opodeldoc: francogrex: I guess more lisp users are getting laid on valentine's day
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2016-02-14T21:50:56Z Opodeldoc: francogrex: maybe check tomorrow when everyone's back at work :)
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2016-02-14T21:57:53Z francogrex: Opodeldoc: i doubt any programmer is getting laid
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2016-02-14T21:59:37Z wglb: Hmmm.       sbcl 1.3.2 is barfing on latest slime
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2016-02-14T22:01:42Z knobo: Would be nice to have a optima pattern-specifier that says it should take the value of the variable, not the as the symbol to bind the target value to.
2016-02-14T22:02:12Z wglb: slime 2.13, that is
2016-02-14T22:04:12Z knobo: so tat (let ((val :val)) (match '(:key :val) (property :key (ref val))) is the same as (match '(:key :val) (property :key :val))
2016-02-14T22:04:18Z knobo: Good or bad idea?
2016-02-14T22:04:56Z knobo: where ref is a "working title" for the pattern-specifier.
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2016-02-14T22:09:47Z knobo: hmm.. it already exists..
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2016-02-14T22:11:06Z knobo: (let ((val :val)) (match '(:key :val) (property :key (eql val))) is what I'm looking for.
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2016-02-14T22:13:32Z knobo: or, in my example I could us eq
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2016-02-15T00:07:16Z Fare: I  can't have no pie
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2016-02-15T00:38:41Z pillton: I frequently have 2 pi.
2016-02-15T00:42:58Z White_Flame: I frequently halve 2 pi.
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2016-02-15T01:05:10Z axion: can you declaim in a locally?
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2016-02-15T01:11:44Z pillton: You declare in a locally.
2016-02-15T01:12:16Z axion: i'm trying to find a solution to set speed for a whole library to be released, without it bleeding into other code.
2016-02-15T01:12:50Z axion: it has a huge impact on performance, and is used for time-sensitive game maths
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2016-02-15T01:13:41Z pillton: There is a trick I have seen where you put #.(library-declaimations) at the top of each file.
2016-02-15T01:14:22Z White_Flame: it works fine for me without the reader macro, as a regular macro such as (optimize-file) at the top
2016-02-15T01:14:58Z pillton: You need the reader macro if you want to use it in a LET form.
2016-02-15T01:15:14Z pillton: ...etc.
2016-02-15T01:15:18Z axion: hmm
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2016-02-15T01:15:27Z Zhivago: As opposed to the top :)
2016-02-15T01:15:57Z pillton: My apologies. The beginning of a file.
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2016-02-15T01:17:09Z Zhivago: Putting it at the beginning won't help with let. :)
2016-02-15T01:17:14Z White_Flame: I also have (slow-body &body ..) defined to muffle optimization notes where I'm fine with them.  SBCL just _loves_ spewing them out when you crank up speed :)
2016-02-15T01:17:47Z pillton: Zhivago: Ok. Now I'm confused.
2016-02-15T01:19:11Z Zhivago: white flame's point is that a regular macro works at the top. Your point seems to be that #.(...) is required in a let form, etc.
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2016-02-15T01:22:56Z pillton: White_Flame: Ignoring the notes is not a good idea. I find them informative.
2016-02-15T01:23:42Z White_Flame: I use that when I'm fine with a body section not attaining full optimization.  I mark it as acknowledged by muffling the tightest relevant scope
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2016-02-15T01:24:41Z White_Flame: In general, IMO, finished code should compile silently
2016-02-15T01:25:11Z pillton: Ok. You're preaching to the converted now.
2016-02-15T01:26:51Z axion: can i have an example?
2016-02-15T01:27:34Z White_Flame: (slow-body (incf *some-counter*)), where the counter may pass into bignums on 32-bit, and I don't care about that particular overhead
2016-02-15T01:28:34Z axion: i meant for a solution to my problem
2016-02-15T01:29:04Z White_Flame: put a declaim at the top of files, either literally or via macro with a centralized definition.  Rely on ad-hoc behavior of declaim not leaking outisde the file compiler.  Good enough
2016-02-15T01:29:47Z axion: um
2016-02-15T01:30:09Z White_Flame: The goal is to have your lib code optimized without globally affecting optimization declarations, right?
2016-02-15T01:30:50Z Zhivago: You could just rely on separate compilation.
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2016-02-15T01:30:54Z axion: yes. the other day in here i was told never to put declaim at the top for libraries, as itd bleed into other code once released
2016-02-15T01:31:09Z White_Flame: could or would?
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2016-02-15T01:31:21Z axion: could, as the standard doesnt define its scope
2016-02-15T01:31:38Z White_Flame: right, hence relying on ad hoc behavior
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2016-02-15T01:31:58Z White_Flame: but yeah, if you're paranoid about it, you can wrap the whole file in (locally (declare (optimize ..)) ...)
2016-02-15T01:32:13Z axion: but it affects performance too much. i dont want to potentially mess with others' compiled code
2016-02-15T01:32:31Z Zhivago: This seems like a problem for a build system. :)
2016-02-15T01:32:59Z Zhivago: Although I guess the infrastructure for separate compilation might be trickier.
2016-02-15T01:34:00Z axion: ok
2016-02-15T01:34:42Z White_Flame: however, I've never seen such a locally declare wrapper in the wild, while I have seen per-file declaims in quicklisp
2016-02-15T01:34:56Z White_Flame: erm, in quicklisp-hosted projects
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2016-02-15T01:35:24Z axion: what about just setting default levels at the end of the asd?
2016-02-15T01:35:38Z White_Flame: you don't want defaults, you want prior levels
2016-02-15T01:35:54Z pillton: You could write a CDR in order to improve DECLAIM's definition.
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2016-02-15T01:38:24Z White_Flame: axion: also, the lifecycle of running the code in the asd file is independent of loading all the files from the system
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2016-02-15T01:39:16Z axion: i guess i'll just put toplevel declaim's, and add a note to the docs as to why
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2016-02-15T04:36:52Z PuercoPop: axion: or just don't sweat it. Only avoid don't add a declaim by default (like manardb eg). fwiw iirc declaims persist through compilations in SBCL (but couldn't find anything on the manual)
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2016-02-15T04:43:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-15T04:44:20Z jsgrant: Good evening, beach.
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2016-02-15T05:05:53Z jsgrant: Anyone play with, https://gitlab.com/ralt/crash yet?
2016-02-15T05:06:31Z jsgrant: I'm going to try and play with it at somepoint tomorrow or tuesday.
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2016-02-15T05:09:24Z jackdaniel: hello o/
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2016-02-15T05:11:13Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2016-02-15T05:12:22Z jsgrant wonders if a "shell" in the unix-like paradigm sense, is even preferable to a "repl-like listener" generally.
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2016-02-15T05:14:09Z jackdaniel: regarding shell wrappers I've found shelisp very nice with this regard
2016-02-15T05:14:32Z jackdaniel: it allows switching between shell and repl syntax, or even mix them
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2016-02-15T05:15:14Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: So, it's just a wrapper? Like they don't implement all this stuff in CL, just make it more-or-less nice to use it?
2016-02-15T05:15:37Z jsgrant: To my understaning of Crash, it's like Eshell but in CL.
2016-02-15T05:16:10Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: I don't know about crash, but I think I saw a word "wrapper" somewhere there
2016-02-15T05:16:34Z jsgrant: Somewhere there, being Shelisp description?
2016-02-15T05:17:57Z jackdaniel: I mean crash, but I may be totally wrong. Shelisp is for sure such a wrapper
2016-02-15T05:20:32Z jackdaniel: OK, nvm me. It isn't a wrapper (it allows implementing commands by any means, so "cd" is implemented with uiop)
2016-02-15T05:21:22Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: I was going to say, I didn't look at the codebase really yet besides they commands are in seperate modules.
2016-02-15T05:21:43Z jsgrant: I didn't look at the codebase really though*
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2016-02-15T05:25:03Z beach: Are there plans to implement a "repl-like listener" for interaction with Unix/Posix operating systems?
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2016-02-15T05:27:59Z jsgrant: beach: I've not seen any intention of this, sadly. Though dev seems receptive to suggestions, from the little I've seen of them.
2016-02-15T05:28:06Z jackdaniel: beach: ralt is writing extensible shell in CL from what I understood, but I'm not sure if he plans to use syscalls to achieve independance from the underlying implementation(S)
2016-02-15T05:29:24Z beach: jsgrant: Who are they, i.e. "dev"?
2016-02-15T05:29:46Z jsgrant: Florian Margaine , or @ralt.
2016-02-15T05:29:50Z jsgrant: ralt: ^
2016-02-15T05:29:55Z beach: OK.
2016-02-15T05:30:16Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I see.
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2016-02-15T06:17:17Z beach: I think my paper on Cluffer is getting close to ready for submission.  For those interested, I will take remarks and suggestions for improvements; you too can have your name in section 6: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
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2016-02-15T06:28:26Z |3b|: beach: want spelling level stuff too?
2016-02-15T06:28:37Z beach: Yes please.
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2016-02-15T06:29:29Z |3b|: "one or more cursor" -> "one or more cursors", "in terms of storage requirement" -> "in terms of storage requirements"
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2016-02-15T06:30:47Z beach: Fixed.  Thanks!
2016-02-15T06:31:55Z beach: How would you like to be referred to in section 6?
2016-02-15T06:32:06Z |3b|: "(in terms of the number of items between the two." is missing )
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2016-02-15T06:33:37Z beach: Fixed as well.
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2016-02-15T06:38:00Z |3b|: and next sentence, "making this data structure is very efficient ...", probably don't want the 'is'
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2016-02-15T06:39:28Z beach: Indeed.  Thanks.
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2016-02-15T06:41:05Z beach will be back in 10 minutes or so.
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2016-02-15T06:45:53Z jackdaniel: "An line is open" -> "A line is open" (but given my english grammar skills I'm probably wrong :)
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2016-02-15T06:47:19Z Opodeldoc: 2.3.4 "At most one line is open at any point in time, and then the contents is stored separately in a gap buffer. The gap-buffer data is contained in special variables and not encapsulated in a class or a struct." --- I would change it to 'content is' or 'contents are', and be consistent whether there's a hyphen in gap-buffer
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2016-02-15T06:48:28Z |3b|: beach: i assume 2.3.2 Multics Emacs  is still being worked on?
2016-02-15T06:50:34Z Fare: my, sbcl is awfully sensitive to the link options used to produce a runtime.
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2016-02-15T06:53:59Z myrkraverk: What is the second best lisp IDE?  (Given emacs (with or without slime) is the first)
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2016-02-15T06:54:33Z |3b|: Opodeldoc: seems like it is using "a gap buffer" without - and gap-buffer when it describes something else fairly consistently, not sure whether that is a good thing or not though
2016-02-15T06:54:39Z beach: jackdaniel: You are right of course.
2016-02-15T06:56:04Z beach: Opodeldoc: The hyphen is when gap buffer is used as an adjective.  Not otherwise.  I think that is standard practice.  But yeah, "contents are". thanks.
2016-02-15T06:57:36Z |3b| isn't sure about the italics on "gap buffer" in 2.3.1
2016-02-15T06:57:50Z beach: |3b|: Multics (along with Multics Emacs) is dead.
2016-02-15T06:58:21Z |3b|: beach: i mean the section seems to just stop in the middle of a thought
2016-02-15T06:58:36Z beach: That's possible.
2016-02-15T06:58:55Z beach: Yes, still being worked on.
2016-02-15T06:59:15Z Fare: there ought to be some kind of ld script or set of options that will make the basic addresses constant
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2016-02-15T07:05:23Z beach: Opodeldoc: How would you like to be referred to in section 6?
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2016-02-15T07:05:53Z Opodeldoc: 3.2.3 "Finally, each node contains line count and item count for the entire subtree [...]" -- I'm honestly unsure if this means a single count of each, or if there's a count of items per line
2016-02-15T07:06:51Z beach: Opodeldoc: I'll look into that.
2016-02-15T07:06:53Z Opodeldoc: 'a line count and an item count' maybe ... I imagine that's what it's saying
2016-02-15T07:07:03Z beach: Yeah.
2016-02-15T07:07:59Z beach: OK, got to go.  Monday mornings are crazy around her.  Opodeldoc: You can send me email concerning how you want to be referred to.
2016-02-15T07:08:11Z beach: And I'll read the logs in case there are more remarks.
2016-02-15T07:08:14Z beach: Thanks to everyone.
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2016-02-15T07:21:15Z |3b|: beach: "5.3 Tread safety" -> Thread
2016-02-15T07:21:39Z brucem: |3b|: or 5.3: Tread safely: Threads are around.
2016-02-15T07:21:47Z |3b|: :)
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2016-02-15T07:26:40Z |3b|: beach: "..base class of all cursors.  Each different line implementation.." should that be cursor implementation?
2016-02-15T07:27:52Z |3b|: beach: though i guess since only line and buffer implementations were discussed in the main text, probably not
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2016-02-15T09:27:13Z phoe_krk: minion: tell shka look up array-dimension and length in CLHS. array-dimension ignores fill pointers where length does not.
2016-02-15T09:27:14Z minion: shka: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
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2016-02-15T09:27:37Z phoe_krk: minion: tell shka to look up array-dimension and length in CLHS. array-dimension ignores fill pointers where length does not.
2016-02-15T09:27:37Z minion: shka: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2016-02-15T09:28:20Z phoe_krk: minion: memo for shka: look up array-dimension and length in CLHS. array-dimension ignores fill pointers where length does not.
2016-02-15T09:28:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-15T10:42:50Z vmonteco: Hello!
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2016-02-15T10:44:33Z tralala: Can anyone tell me what's this feature called and where do I read about it? (or #+a a #+b b ...)
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2016-02-15T10:46:17Z fe[nl]ix: tralala: they are called reader macros
2016-02-15T10:46:29Z fe[nl]ix: and they allow for conditional compilation, basically
2016-02-15T10:47:40Z tralala: fe[nl]ix, thank you
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2016-02-15T10:48:41Z antoszka: clhs #+
2016-02-15T10:48:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2016-02-15T10:48:50Z antoszka: tralala: ↑
2016-02-15T10:49:20Z antoszka: (and see 24.1.2.1 linked)
2016-02-15T10:49:28Z tralala: antoszka, thank you too
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2016-02-15T11:08:11Z jackdaniel: tralala: you mamy google them under name "read-time conditionals"
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2016-02-15T12:17:31Z smokeink: hello, has anyone got this issue with hunchentoot+ ssl ? https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/issues/127 what does that error mean?
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2016-02-15T12:30:27Z jdz: it appears from the backtrace that the stream hunchentoot is trying to close is already closed
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2016-02-15T12:31:55Z smokeink: could it be a bug in hunchentoot?
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2016-02-15T12:37:46Z jdz: not sure.  it appears (again, from the backtrace) that the error happens when hunchentoot is doing FINISH-OUTPUT, so there is some unwritten data
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2016-02-15T12:39:31Z jdz: so this does seem to be a serious condition (losing data is always serious), so hunchentoot is doing the right thing
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2016-02-15T12:40:04Z jdz: the real question is why is there unwritten data hanging around?
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2016-02-15T12:42:12Z smokeink: yes it's strange. i just created an ssl cert and supplied it as a param to restas:start , along with the privkey file and with the pass, but it keeps spitting out this error on every request i make to any route
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2016-02-15T12:46:07Z smokeink: #+GG(princ "gg is defined") how to define GG in order for the princ form to be evaluated?
2016-02-15T12:46:37Z jackdaniel: smokeink: (pushnew 'gg *features*)
2016-02-15T12:47:03Z jdz: i use #+(and) and #-(and) to enable/disable the next form, respectively
2016-02-15T12:47:26Z jackdaniel: jdz: heheh, I use #+(or) and #-(or) ^_^
2016-02-15T12:47:27Z jdz: (the + means read it, the - means don't)
2016-02-15T12:49:00Z smokeink: i'm currently not in cl-user package, i pushed 'gg to *features* but that princ still won't run
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2016-02-15T12:49:50Z Shinmera: cause it happens at read time
2016-02-15T12:50:23Z jackdaniel: smokeink: it worked for me when pushed :gg and ran in inferior-lisp
2016-02-15T12:50:39Z jackdaniel: slime but it seems, that pushing :gg is enough
2016-02-15T12:50:41Z jackdaniel: not 'gg
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2016-02-15T12:51:35Z smokeink: pushing :gg made it go through, thanks
2016-02-15T12:51:43Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-02-15T12:52:46Z jackdaniel: hrm, I think that I saw somewhere something like feature-case, but can't remember where
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2016-02-15T12:59:07Z jackdaniel: ah, found it: McCLIM/Apps/Scigraph/dwim/feature-case.lisp
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2016-02-15T13:07:45Z moore33: jackdaniel: Fun stuff.
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2016-02-15T13:18:37Z MadaraUchiha: Hey
2016-02-15T13:19:18Z MadaraUchiha: I'm reading practical common lisp and I noticed that in one of the examples, the author used the PROGN :method-combination parameter on DEFGENERIC
2016-02-15T13:19:48Z MadaraUchiha: What's the advantage of doing that? Aren't generic function implementations already chained one after another like that by default?
2016-02-15T13:22:07Z moore33: MadaraUchiha: No, normally only the most specific primary method is run.
2016-02-15T13:22:21Z eudoxia: MadaraUchiha: the default method combination is most specific first, which means only the most specific method of a generic function will be called. progn means all methods are called, in order of decreasing specificity.
2016-02-15T13:22:34Z eudoxia: i think
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2016-02-15T13:22:55Z MadaraUchiha: wat, really?
2016-02-15T13:23:15Z MadaraUchiha: Doesn't that kind of get in the way of inheritance?
2016-02-15T13:23:18Z moore33: MadaraUchiha: Unless you call call-next-method.
2016-02-15T13:23:25Z MadaraUchiha: Ah
2016-02-15T13:23:29Z lieven: you can do call-next-method yourself
2016-02-15T13:23:30Z MadaraUchiha: Right, that's what I was missing
2016-02-15T13:23:48Z MadaraUchiha: So basically, combining with progn is like implicitly calling call-next-method every time?
2016-02-15T13:23:58Z eudoxia: MadaraUchiha: well, the default method combination gives you the default behaviour of methods in OOP languages: the most specific method overrides all others. the progn method combination gives you a kind of composability across methods.
2016-02-15T13:25:06Z MadaraUchiha: Yeah, so by default, call-next-method will act like a call to super(...args) in classical OO langauges
2016-02-15T13:25:20Z eudoxia: for instance, imagine you have an abstract class that represents an SQL database connection, with progn generic functions for connecting and disconnecting. the default methods perform the actual connecting and disconnecting, while database-specific progn methods perform extra work to ensure consistent behaviour across database systems
2016-02-15T13:25:29Z eudoxia: MadaraUchiha: yeah
2016-02-15T13:25:51Z MadaraUchiha: eudoxia, Wouldn't you normally use :before and :after for those?
2016-02-15T13:26:12Z eudoxia: uhhh
2016-02-15T13:26:17Z eudoxia: it depends
2016-02-15T13:26:26Z eudoxia: (that will never fail to be a safe answer :) )
2016-02-15T13:26:28Z moore33: Sometimes you need the value of the next method.
2016-02-15T13:27:33Z moore33: I have never used progn method combination, but use :before and :after all the time. Note that you can't call call-next-method in a before or after method.
2016-02-15T13:27:37Z MadaraUchiha: Another question, is there a specific reason why I need to define the method combination on both the DEFGENERIC and all DEFMETHOD calls?
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2016-02-15T13:28:03Z moore33: MadaraUchiha: Not  really, except for documentation.
2016-02-15T13:28:22Z moore33: An unqualified method is a primary method for standard method combination.
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2016-02-15T13:28:44Z MadaraUchiha: The example in the book is:
2016-02-15T13:28:45Z MadaraUchiha: (defgeneric read-object (object stream)
2016-02-15T13:28:46Z MadaraUchiha:   (:method-combination progn :most-specific-last)
2016-02-15T13:28:46Z MadaraUchiha:   (:documentation "Fill in the slots of object from stream."))
2016-02-15T13:28:55Z MadaraUchiha:        (defmethod read-object progn ((,objectvar ,name) ,streamvar)
2016-02-15T13:28:55Z MadaraUchiha:          (with-slots ,(mapcar #'first slots) ,objectvar
2016-02-15T13:28:55Z MadaraUchiha:            ,@(mapcar #'(lambda (x) (slot->read-value x streamvar)) slots)))
2016-02-15T13:29:13Z MadaraUchiha: So basically, I can drop the progn from the DEFMETHOD?
2016-02-15T13:29:25Z moore33: No.
2016-02-15T13:29:42Z MadaraUchiha: So.... I have to include it in both?
2016-02-15T13:29:43Z moore33: I meant that you need it for no real reason :)
2016-02-15T13:29:48Z moore33: Yup.
2016-02-15T13:29:54Z MadaraUchiha: Ah, so I still need to, but there's no good reason to :D
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2016-02-15T13:29:59Z MadaraUchiha: design decisions FTW
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2016-02-15T13:33:28Z MadaraUchiha: I'm currently at the point where I have a pretty good grasp at the basics and need to start writing stuff with it to level up
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2016-02-15T13:33:49Z MadaraUchiha: But I'm too damn lazy to actually clear time and do it XD
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2016-02-15T14:30:44Z lisp_noob: Does anyone know why is it that when one compiles a system with asdf as a monolythic single fasl file, every form is evaluated twice when then loaded?
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2016-02-15T14:32:07Z jdz: lisp_noob: most probably they are evaluated at both compilation and load times
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2016-02-15T14:36:29Z lisp_noob: but i'm compiling with ecl -shell, which quits the program. then i open a new ecl and do (load #P"<name>.fasb") and it runs twice there (shouldn't be compiling anything here)
2016-02-15T14:36:38Z blub: is (eq #1=1 #1#) allowed to return nil?
2016-02-15T14:37:53Z jdz: lisp_noob: are your forms in question surrounded by EVAL-WHEN to specify when they should or should not be evaluated?
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2016-02-15T14:38:52Z jdz: lisp_noob: there is also LOAD-TIME-VALUE which might be useful for you
2016-02-15T14:39:03Z lisp_noob: ah, that's probably it. they're just on the file, no eval-when
2016-02-15T14:39:15Z newcup: blub: clhs entry for eq: "numbers with the same value need not be eq"
2016-02-15T14:39:19Z Shinmera: blub: How could it? They're literally the same object.
2016-02-15T14:39:27Z lisp_noob: i'll look into it, thanks a lot jdz
2016-02-15T14:39:28Z Shinmera: newcup: but it's the same object.
2016-02-15T14:39:34Z blub: ya, that's my question
2016-02-15T14:39:50Z newcup: "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time"
2016-02-15T14:39:59Z blub: on the page for eq it specifically says (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) can be nil, and it says that An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time. The effect is that Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a character or number.
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2016-02-15T14:40:26Z blub: but it seems like my example should have to be t, and i'm not sure if that's right
2016-02-15T14:40:35Z varjag: https://www.flickr.com/photos/varjagg/24749694890/in/dateposted-public/
2016-02-15T14:41:10Z Shinmera: blub: The wording in that always confused me, so I'm not sure either.
2016-02-15T14:41:33Z varjag: (sorry wrong channel)
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2016-02-15T14:42:15Z ggole: Seems pretty clear that you can't rely on it to me
2016-02-15T14:42:28Z phoe_krk: (= 2 2) must return T
2016-02-15T14:42:34Z phoe_krk: (eq 2 2) needs not
2016-02-15T14:42:43Z igam: phoe_krk: nope.
2016-02-15T14:42:56Z igam: (= 2 2) may return 2, or 42, or I-tell-you-so.
2016-02-15T14:43:08Z phoe_krk: !?
2016-02-15T14:43:19Z Shinmera: igam: There's no need to be overly pedantic here, that's missing the point.
2016-02-15T14:43:20Z phoe_krk: clhs #=
2016-02-15T14:43:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
2016-02-15T14:43:21Z igam:  = &rest numbers+ => generalized-boolean
2016-02-15T14:43:25Z jdz: = returns a "generalized-boolean"
2016-02-15T14:43:30Z phoe_krk: oh. I see.
2016-02-15T14:43:38Z phoe_krk: clhs =
2016-02-15T14:43:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm
2016-02-15T14:43:51Z phoe_krk: so it returns non-nil.
2016-02-15T14:44:46Z phoe_krk: let me put it another way: (and (= 2 2) (eq 2 2)) can therefore eval to NIL, right?
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2016-02-15T14:45:06Z blub: right, im just asking specifically if the reference-to read macro gets around the eq with numbers thing, or if it can still return false
2016-02-15T14:45:22Z newcup: regarding eq-ness of numbers, I guess some implementation might treat all integers including 1 as a bignum, so it's easier to reason about why eq might return nil
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2016-02-15T14:45:53Z ggole: Since numbers can be copied "at any time", they can be copied during read time
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2016-02-15T14:46:16Z jdz: newcup: it's the other way around -- in case of bignums the EQ would usually work "as expected"
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2016-02-15T14:47:00Z jdz: it's the case with fixnums and tagging and register allocation and whatever other optimizations the implementations are free to do
2016-02-15T14:47:00Z igam: The worst thing is that they can be copied when passed as arguments! (let ((x 2)) (eq x x)) --> may return nil.
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2016-02-15T14:47:39Z blub: but the second argument to eq in (eq #1=2 #1#) is a pointer to the first argument. it seems obvious that it should therefore be required to be true, it's just that "the same thing" wording that makes me unsure
2016-02-15T14:47:39Z ggole: It would be quite strange for register allocation to change the behaviour of eq
2016-02-15T14:48:06Z jdz: well, i have not implemented a single compiler
2016-02-15T14:48:15Z jdz: that's why i read the spec
2016-02-15T14:48:18Z newcup: ah, I see the point, the reader knows, due to the reader macro, that the number is the same
2016-02-15T14:49:21Z jdz: newcup: that should be the same as the LET case
2016-02-15T14:49:45Z ggole: blub: numbers are not necessarily pointers.
2016-02-15T14:49:46Z igam: blub: the point again, is that when calling a function, the number arguments can be copied!
2016-02-15T14:50:00Z igam: so even  (eq #1=2 #1#) may return nil.
2016-02-15T14:50:48Z phoe_krk: clhs eq
2016-02-15T14:50:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2016-02-15T14:50:56Z jdz: oh, right, so it's not about the fixnums after all
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2016-02-15T14:52:01Z ggole: The implementation can copy when calling the function, when materialising the sexp during reading, on a damp Tuesday, etc
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2016-02-15T15:11:20Z varjag: kid's home alone
2016-02-15T15:11:50Z varjag: coding minecraft mods
2016-02-15T15:11:51Z varjag: damn
2016-02-15T15:11:58Z varjag: wrong channel again, sorry guys
2016-02-15T15:13:30Z phoe_krk: let's code minecraft mods in common lisp
2016-02-15T15:13:33Z phoe_krk: we have ABCL after all
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2016-02-15T15:57:13Z shka: hi
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2016-02-15T16:06:00Z DeadTrickster: anyone tried ABCL on andorid?
2016-02-15T16:06:08Z DeadTrickster: or this is hopeless?
2016-02-15T16:06:32Z Shinmera: Android does not use the JVM.
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2016-02-15T16:07:02Z Shinmera: Java is not always eq to Java.
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2016-02-15T16:08:13Z JuanDaugherty: it doesn't use the oracle jvm
2016-02-15T16:08:19Z Shinmera: So, no, it doesn't work. You'd have to change ABCL entirely to produce Dalvik (or whatever it is they use nowadays) code.
2016-02-15T16:08:31Z DeadTrickster: yeah but I thought byte code stays the same
2016-02-15T16:08:35Z DeadTrickster: ART today is ART
2016-02-15T16:08:36Z JuanDaugherty: it uses a latter day evolute of jvm which is just a google rip on the jvm
2016-02-15T16:09:53Z JuanDaugherty: in particular its not the most non jvm, vm thing it might be which is say, compilation via llvm or whatever to native code
2016-02-15T16:11:38Z JuanDaugherty: people wanna use lisp on a phone or other mobile device in a javaish kinda way, reminds juan of clojure
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2016-02-15T16:12:51Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: ecl works on android (but not in javaland, rather as a so)
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2016-02-15T16:13:44Z DeadTrickster: javaland is dead anyway
2016-02-15T16:14:02Z DeadTrickster: ART introduced AOT and basically all apps are now compiled down to machine code
2016-02-15T16:14:03Z DeadTrickster: yay
2016-02-15T16:14:22Z DeadTrickster: .net did that in 2003 or so )
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2016-02-15T16:18:37Z Shinmera: On the other hand there's also MOCL
2016-02-15T16:18:47Z Shinmera still wishes he had time to give that a go
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2016-02-15T16:26:55Z moore33: I'm a user of Android ECL by way of Maxima for Android. That works very well.
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2016-02-15T16:55:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyone know whay I'd randomly get package lock errors when quickloading iolib/syscalls?
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2016-02-15T16:58:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e., if I quickload it in a fresh SBCL session, there'd be no problem but, if I quickload it after having worked for a while, sometimes it gives me a package-lock error:
2016-02-15T16:58:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when binding TYPE as a local symbol-macro while in package IOLIB/SYSCALLS."
2016-02-15T17:00:52Z attila_lendvai: fiddlerwoaroof: my guess it's due to an unrecorded dependency... fe[nl]ix may know?
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2016-02-15T17:02:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only thing I could think of is my use of TYPE as a function argument might somehow involve undefined behavior, or something
2016-02-15T17:03:13Z fe[nl]ix: local symbol macro ?
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2016-02-15T17:04:16Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-15T17:04:23Z jackdaniel: hi beach o/
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2016-02-15T17:04:29Z Valjan: Good morning :P
2016-02-15T17:04:38Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-02-15T17:04:39Z fe[nl]ix: that might come from cffi's with-foreign-slots
2016-02-15T17:04:46Z jackdaniel: 
2016-02-15T17:05:03Z fe[nl]ix: fiddlerwoaroof: can you paste the backtrace somwwhere ?
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2016-02-15T17:05:49Z moore33: beach: hey beach!
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2016-02-15T17:10:18Z beach: moore33: The company I was going to give talks to basically apologized for insulting me, but the haven't accepted my conditions yet, and they still may not, of course.
2016-02-15T17:10:29Z beach: "but they haven't"
2016-02-15T17:11:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: @fe[nl]ix: I will, if it happens again, I'll post the backtrace.
2016-02-15T17:11:20Z moore33: beach: Glad to hear that. Do you have anything on your website about your proposed subjects (the personal improvement thing)?
2016-02-15T17:11:46Z beach: I have the slides.  Hold on...
2016-02-15T17:12:46Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Seminars
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2016-02-15T17:14:00Z moore33: beach: Maybe I can improve my productivity at debugging this very annoying C++ code :)
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2016-02-15T17:15:06Z beach: moore33: I shall have to trust you on that one.
2016-02-15T17:16:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: do you happen to host your papers in pdf form somewhere?  I've wanted to share a link to them, from time to time, but the tex versions aren't very friendly.
2016-02-15T17:16:45Z beach: I put them up as I work on them on metamodular.com.
2016-02-15T17:17:08Z moore33: beach: I have never really gotten into Emacs keyboard macros. Customized bindings, sure. You find that they save you time?
2016-02-15T17:17:50Z beach: Yes, very much so.
2016-02-15T17:18:18Z moore33: hmm
2016-02-15T17:18:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: vim keyboard macros certainly save me time
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2016-02-15T17:22:39Z beach: moore33: I use them a lot here on IRC.  Otherwise, I use them more for French text than for English.
2016-02-15T17:23:28Z moore33: beach: Ok. I haven't used an Emacs IRC client for years.
2016-02-15T17:23:46Z beach: That explains it.
2016-02-15T17:24:15Z beach: moore33: Oh, sorry, keyboard macros.
2016-02-15T17:24:22Z beach: I read abbrevs.
2016-02-15T17:24:31Z beach: Yes, I use keyboard macros even more.
2016-02-15T17:24:36Z beach: For programming.
2016-02-15T17:24:45Z beach is too tired.
2016-02-15T17:24:48Z moore33: I'm not sure I'd claim a large increase in productivity from using IRC keyboard macros :) I do use dabbrevs a lot.
2016-02-15T17:24:57Z beach: Yes, sorry.
2016-02-15T17:25:13Z beach: I should leave and get some rest, really.
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2016-02-15T17:30:30Z beach: moore33: I often use a combination of the output of grep (in Emacs) and a keyboard macro when I need to do some non-trivial (i.e., not just search-and-replace) operations repeatedly in some body of code.
2016-02-15T17:31:25Z moore33: beach: Ok, that's a good one.
2016-02-15T17:32:09Z beach: Then I can inspect every case to see whether the macro applies or not.  It takes only a split second to inspect and I can still skip cases that the macro can't handle.
2016-02-15T17:32:28Z beach: I end the macro with C-x ` to get to the next grep hit.
2016-02-15T17:32:53Z beach: ... and I do a C-x ` before I start recording the macro, of course.
2016-02-15T17:33:32Z moore33: I will have to give that a try.
2016-02-15T17:34:04Z beach: I did a live demo as part of my Kaizen talk.
2016-02-15T17:34:16Z moore33: I've known about keyboard macros for years, of course, and have given them a go on several occasions, but I always fall back on the regular bindings.
2016-02-15T17:34:44Z beach: Well, keyboard macros as I use them are ephemeral.
2016-02-15T17:35:43Z beach: The demo was: add another argument (at the end) to every call to a C function named foo, and make it 1 in the first call, 2 in the second, 3 in the third, etc.
2016-02-15T17:35:51Z beach: That way I could use arithmetic as well.
2016-02-15T17:36:20Z beach: Some occurrences had to be skipped because they were declarations, so it can't be fully automated.
2016-02-15T17:36:43Z beach: ... declarations or some other non-call occurrences of foo.
2016-02-15T17:36:50Z moore33: right
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2016-02-15T17:37:25Z beach: So I will do C-x e, then e, e, e, C-x `, C-x e, e, e, e....
2016-02-15T17:37:43Z beach: Very fast.
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2016-02-15T17:40:20Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back briefly later.
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2016-02-15T17:40:34Z moore33: Ciao
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2016-02-15T18:59:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone here happen to use the IMAP library Clonsigna?
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2016-02-15T19:23:10Z jsgrant: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh wow, I've never even heard of this lib. Very cool!
2016-02-15T19:23:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: jsgrant: it has at least one bug
2016-02-15T19:23:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the documentation doesn't exactly match reality
2016-02-15T19:24:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: (for example, in the demo they pass an integer as an id, when you have to pass strings)
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2016-02-15T19:25:25Z jsgrant: fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's an odd mistake.
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2016-02-15T19:25:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It looks to me like they got to about 75% finished and then gave up.
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2016-02-15T19:26:07Z jsgrant: With documentation, or the actual lib itself?
2016-02-15T19:26:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: With the lib.
2016-02-15T19:26:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to be pretty reliable for little things
2016-02-15T19:27:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: But parts of it seem to be cut off in the middle of an architecture change.
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2016-02-15T19:28:06Z jsgrant hasn't checked the commit log, but many times in CL projects it seems to me is a slow and spur-of-the-moment kind of trudge towards development; Namely, because many of these happen to be hobby projects in that they aren't (often though sadly) don't use such things in production.
2016-02-15T19:28:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I know.
2016-02-15T19:28:53Z jsgrant wishes this wasn't the more-or-less nor,
2016-02-15T19:28:54Z jsgrant: norm*
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2016-02-15T19:45:45Z jackdaniel: is there any fine comparison between babel and flexi-streams? I think I recall that babel was faster, while flexi-streams was more feature-rich?
2016-02-15T19:46:17Z phoe_krk: babel has nowhere as many encodings as flexi-streams.
2016-02-15T19:46:43Z phoe_krk: I couldn't find iso-8859-2 in there for example, which was my home Windows encoding.
2016-02-15T19:46:47Z Shinmera: But babel is indeed much faster than flexi-streams.
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2016-02-15T19:47:07Z phoe_krk: so, basically, I think that you're right, jackdaniel.
2016-02-15T19:47:28Z jackdaniel: glad to hear that ;-) thanks guys
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2016-02-15T19:57:45Z SpikeMaster: hi
2016-02-15T19:58:11Z SpikeMaster: what's more rock solid? SBCL or Clozur CL?
2016-02-15T19:58:34Z Shinmera: Both are pretty solid.
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2016-02-15T19:58:52Z Shinmera: On Windows CCL is probably more solid than SBCL
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2016-02-15T19:59:38Z SpikeMaster: k, i'm on windows so CCl it is
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2016-02-15T20:01:39Z phoe_krk: SBCL gave me problems only when dealing with encodings.
2016-02-15T20:01:47Z rubengarcia: complete noobie to programming can anyone recommend a good book?
2016-02-15T20:01:49Z phoe_krk: And that's the only reason I've switched to CCL when on Windows.
2016-02-15T20:02:03Z phoe_krk: rubengarcia: Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation by D. Touretzky
2016-02-15T20:02:14Z phoe_krk: https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijyZzux_rKAhVl1XIKHXznDQoQFggfMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.cmu.edu%2F~dst%2FLispBook%2Fbook.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHzM32v612ibAe2--S-auWx7GbFDA&sig2=QRT3QA92NvLqX1tZ8graxg
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2016-02-15T20:02:16Z phoe_krk: wait
2016-02-15T20:02:21Z rubengarcia: thanks.
2016-02-15T20:02:21Z phoe_krk: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
2016-02-15T20:03:14Z phoe_krk: also, rubengarcia
2016-02-15T20:03:35Z phoe_krk: #clnoobs <- that's a channel just for us Lisp newbs and learners!
2016-02-15T20:03:52Z rubengarcia: thanks for yor help phoe_krk
2016-02-15T20:04:03Z phoe_krk: rubengarcia: no problem! we're here for that.
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2016-02-15T20:08:50Z phoe_krk: Does Minion know anything about Lisp books such as the one I just linked above?
2016-02-15T20:09:11Z phoe_krk: I mean, can I ask it "minion: gisc" to have the link to Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation pop up?
2016-02-15T20:09:28Z pavelpenev: minion: tell phoe_krk about pcl
2016-02-15T20:09:28Z minion: phoe_krk: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-02-15T20:09:40Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: I guess yes :)
2016-02-15T20:09:43Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: thanks!
2016-02-15T20:09:49Z phoe_krk: minion: tell phoe_krk about gisc
2016-02-15T20:09:49Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``gisc''.
2016-02-15T20:09:55Z phoe_krk: That needs some polishing though.
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2016-02-15T20:10:06Z jsgrant:  rubengarcia: Land of Lisp, is pretty fun.
2016-02-15T20:10:11Z pavelpenev: minion: tell phoe_krk about gentle
2016-02-15T20:10:12Z minion: phoe_krk: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2016-02-15T20:10:16Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-02-15T20:10:18Z phoe_krk: gentle, I see.
2016-02-15T20:10:26Z phoe_krk: Does minion have a database of what it knows, anywhere?
2016-02-15T20:10:35Z phoe_krk: Publicly viewable?
2016-02-15T20:10:40Z phoe_krk: I'd like to know what I can tell it to do.
2016-02-15T20:10:59Z jsgrant: minion: Is that worth the read? I'm considering doing a learning log, starting from an introductory refresher text.
2016-02-15T20:10:59Z minion: Is that worth the read? I'm considering doing a learning log, starting from an introductory refresher text: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/Is%20that%20worth%20the%20read?%20I'm%20considering%20doing%20a%20learning%20log%2C%20starting%20from%20an%20introductory%20refresher%20text?source" contains illegal character #\? at position 161..
2016-02-15T20:11:00Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: it appears to be a kind af lisp arcana
2016-02-15T20:11:06Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/tree/master/minion is probably it
2016-02-15T20:11:18Z jsgrant: Oh, didn't notice it was a bot. :^I
2016-02-15T20:11:33Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: ^
2016-02-15T20:11:35Z PuercoPop: try /msg minion help
2016-02-15T20:11:38Z phoe_krk: I did!
2016-02-15T20:12:05Z jsgrant probably needs a nap, but it's too late at this point. :^P
2016-02-15T20:12:21Z jsgrant: minion: (+ 1 1) ?
2016-02-15T20:12:21Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2016-02-15T20:13:02Z phoe_krk: ,eval (+ 1 1)
2016-02-15T20:13:07Z phoe_krk: sigh~
2016-02-15T20:13:41Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: evaling lisp code is rather hard to secure hence why it isn't available
2016-02-15T20:13:52Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: yes it is
2016-02-15T20:14:03Z phoe_krk: over at #lisp-pl we have ood which has a custom shadow
2016-02-15T20:14:19Z jsgrant: Is there a "go to" irc lib, for CL?
2016-02-15T20:14:25Z phoe_krk: even through that shadow I was able to poke a hole through that and eval whatever I'd like, so. :P
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2016-02-15T20:19:24Z kpoi: What Common Lisp implementations do you guys use? I have a project that I want to make portable to the most common ones, right now it only works on SBCL, any tips?
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2016-02-15T20:19:42Z PuercoPop: I wonder why some people write (in-package #:cl-user) (defpackage ..) instead of (cl:defpackage) ..
2016-02-15T20:19:49Z jsgrant: I use SBCL, I at somepoint want to move to SICL.
2016-02-15T20:19:51Z Shinmera: kpoi: CCL and ECL are probably the next targets.
2016-02-15T20:19:56Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-02-15T20:20:20Z Shinmera: kpoi: followed by some order of ABCL, CLISP, AllegroCL, LispWorks
2016-02-15T20:20:45Z phoe_krk: kpoi: what's not portable in your code, anyway?
2016-02-15T20:20:54Z phoe_krk: maybe it can be aided through the use of some of the portability libraries
2016-02-15T20:21:15Z kpoi: I'm not sure yet I haven't tested anywhere else but SBCL. It might work fine on all of them...
2016-02-15T20:22:31Z kpoi: It doesn't do anything particularly menacing, it just interprets brainfuck.
2016-02-15T20:22:36Z phoe_krk: kpoi: uhhh.
2016-02-15T20:22:44Z phoe_krk: Are you using *anything* outside ANSI CL standard?
2016-02-15T20:22:51Z kpoi: No.
2016-02-15T20:22:54Z phoe_krk: Then it's portable.
2016-02-15T20:23:01Z phoe_krk applauds
2016-02-15T20:23:22Z phoe_krk: Congratulations!
2016-02-15T20:23:23Z kpoi: I don't even need to test?
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2016-02-15T20:23:30Z phoe_krk: It's always worth to give it a test or two.
2016-02-15T20:23:31Z phoe_krk: But.
2016-02-15T20:23:36Z phoe_krk: If your code is ANSI CL-compliant.
2016-02-15T20:23:43Z phoe_krk: And it doesn't work on an ANSI CL-conforming implementation.
2016-02-15T20:23:54Z phoe_krk: Then it's not the problem of your code and the problem of the implementation.
2016-02-15T20:24:22Z Shinmera: Note that some things in the standard are implementation-dependant, so it's always worthwhile to test anyway.
2016-02-15T20:24:35Z Shinmera: (or even worse, unspecified)
2016-02-15T20:24:35Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: I am aware that portable is an overloaded term, but that is not enough for code to be portable http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#portable
2016-02-15T20:24:36Z kpoi: That is what I was worried about^^^
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2016-02-15T20:25:16Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: well. right.
2016-02-15T20:25:27Z phoe_krk: and not relying on implementation-dependent things.
2016-02-15T20:25:53Z phoe_krk: like (eq 2 2) evaling to T, which was something that gave me a moment of pure WTF a moment ago.
2016-02-15T20:26:47Z kpoi: I don't use EQ.
2016-02-15T20:26:59Z phoe_krk: Then, basically.
2016-02-15T20:27:11Z phoe_krk: Scan the functions you use for whether they anyhow utilize implementation-dependent behaviour.
2016-02-15T20:27:18Z phoe_krk: If not, that should be enough.
2016-02-15T20:27:35Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop might correct me if I'm mistaken again. :P
2016-02-15T20:28:26Z kpoi: Yeah. Well I'm off to install some virtual machines, Tchau!
2016-02-15T20:28:39Z kpoi: How do I do the /away thing?
2016-02-15T20:28:59Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-02-15T20:29:03Z kpoi: it says "You are no longer marked as being away" every time, but I WANT to be marked as away
2016-02-15T20:29:14Z pareidolia: Use it with a message?
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2016-02-15T20:36:43Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: I was trying to come up w/o a good example, that didn't seemed contrived but have fail to come up or remember one. However more than implementation-dependent it is a constraint upon relying only on documented behaviour. For example, setf literals is not implementation-dependent but undefined. Sorry I couldn't come up w/ a more illustrative example
2016-02-15T20:37:19Z phoe_krk: Oh, undefined behaviour is never a good idea.
2016-02-15T20:37:45Z kpoi: Pathnames
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2016-02-15T20:40:40Z phoe_krk: Pathnames are even more than implementation-dependent: they're OS-dependent.
2016-02-15T20:40:56Z Shinmera: well
2016-02-15T20:41:07Z Shinmera: even fixnums are os-dependant
2016-02-15T20:41:51Z Shinmera: or rather, system-dependant.
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2016-02-15T20:42:21Z Shinmera: Both of which boil back down to implementation-dependant, since the implementation could try to bridge things over as much or little as it wants.
2016-02-15T20:42:28Z phoe_krk: Well. Right/
2016-02-15T20:42:29Z phoe_krk: .
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2016-02-15T20:49:48Z kpoi: I used ASDF. Maybe that would be an issue aswell
2016-02-15T20:50:05Z Shinmera: Nah
2016-02-15T20:50:09Z phoe_krk: ASDF seems fairly implementation-independent, actually.
2016-02-15T20:50:13Z phoe_krk: Sturdy as hell.
2016-02-15T20:50:25Z Shinmera: ASDF is probably the most portable code out there, as long as you only rely on features from ASDF2.
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2016-02-15T20:50:36Z Shinmera: Since some implementations still haven't upgraded to 3 :(
2016-02-15T20:51:02Z Shinmera: Either way, it's the standard build system and as such well tested on all implementations.
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2016-02-15T20:51:59Z kpoi: Any feedback would be appreciated, it is my first "Open source" project: https://github.com/equwal/LispFuck
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2016-02-15T20:54:11Z phoe_krk: Hum. You might want to put an optional reader macro there so you can go like #F>>>><
2016-02-15T20:54:13Z phoe_krk: until the end of line.
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2016-02-15T20:54:30Z phoe_krk: also, hahahaha! you actually did what I wanted to suggest you :D
2016-02-15T20:54:39Z kpoi: ?
2016-02-15T20:54:40Z phoe_krk: (brain:fuck string)
2016-02-15T20:54:51Z kpoi: Oh yeah I thought that was amazing.
2016-02-15T20:55:11Z phoe_krk: it is, at least to me.
2016-02-15T20:55:49Z kpoi: I have never heard of a reader macro, I just finished reading Peter Siebel's book and he said to come here for help. Why would I want to go like "#F>>>><"?
2016-02-15T20:56:06Z kpoi: Are the reader macros the #+ and the #- things?
2016-02-15T20:56:23Z phoe_krk: Yes yes.
2016-02-15T20:56:25Z phoe_krk: I mean.
2016-02-15T20:56:28Z Shinmera: Reader macros allow you to modify how the text is read, so they allow syntax modification.
2016-02-15T20:56:35Z phoe_krk: Instead of going (fuck "asdfasfsfsdfasfdafsdaf") in, let's say, REPL.
2016-02-15T20:56:43Z phoe_krk: You can go #Fasdfasfsfsdfasfdafsdaf
2016-02-15T20:57:01Z phoe_krk: and it'll work the same way, although giving you a less Lispy and more Brainfucky feel I think.
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2016-02-15T20:57:19Z kpoi: Oh so another reader macro that is built in would be #b100101
2016-02-15T20:57:35Z kpoi: That is neat I'll do that.
2016-02-15T20:57:54Z Shinmera: Note that ( is a reader macro too
2016-02-15T20:58:06Z Shinmera: as is "
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2016-02-15T20:58:18Z kpoi: Also for the record "asdfasfsfsdfasfdafsdaf" is just a brainfuck comment.
2016-02-15T20:58:23Z phoe_krk: yes, I know :D
2016-02-15T20:58:28Z kpoi: I thought you did yeah.
2016-02-15T20:58:32Z phoe_krk: so you can as well go #FUCK
2016-02-15T20:58:45Z phoe_krk: and have it evaluate to whatever an empty line evaluates to in your reader
2016-02-15T20:59:27Z phoe_krk: after using https://github.com/nvbn/thefuck I would consider this to be a very fine addition to an average REPL.
2016-02-15T21:00:18Z kpoi: That is hilarious
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2016-02-15T21:00:48Z kpoi: "Magnificent app which..."
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2016-02-15T21:01:24Z phoe_krk: kpoi: it IS magnificent.
2016-02-15T21:02:27Z kpoi: They should have a shorter version like "f" so you only have to type one letter
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2016-02-15T21:02:50Z kpoi: Of course that would be easy to do yourself
2016-02-15T21:04:06Z phoe_krk: uh
2016-02-15T21:04:06Z kpoi: Like this guy https://github.com/nvbn/thefuck/issues/453
2016-02-15T21:04:12Z phoe_krk: kpoi: you can customize it of course
2016-02-15T21:04:20Z phoe_krk: alias f fuck
2016-02-15T21:04:21Z phoe_krk: in bash
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2016-02-15T21:05:10Z kpoi: Yeah just did.
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2016-02-15T21:17:03Z rpg: Does anyone know about QL internals?  How does it do introspection?  Does it have to load everything up, or does it do some kind of heuristic parsing of libraries' asd files?
2016-02-15T21:18:52Z Bike: i think it tries to load and puts a handler on the system not found condition.
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2016-02-15T21:19:46Z Bike: ah, no, it's a bit more complicated check ql:autoload-system-and-dependencies, it uses asdf to compute the load strategy and then does the handler bit.
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2016-02-15T21:26:36Z rpg: Bike: Thanks.  We were arguing over whether QL did some sort of groveling where it needed to be able to load or read a system definition /without/ actually loading anything.
2016-02-15T21:27:08Z rpg: ASDF is not (cannot be) pure, so if you load an ASD file, you may change the image by loading systems needed to process the defsystem form.
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2016-02-15T21:28:02Z rpg: We have been trying to figure out how QL and ASDF interact, with an eye towards fixing some ASDF stuff.
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2016-02-15T21:40:40Z PuercoPop: rpg: I was going to ask, is the purpose of asdf-user to put all the system definitions in that package?
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2016-02-15T21:41:25Z rpg: PuercoPop: Yes, that was fare's intention.  I am old school: I have an emacs template for my ASD files and just make a new package for each one.
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2016-02-15T21:42:05Z rpg: PuercoPop: Fare didn't like the old proliferation of anonymous packages.  I'm not entirely sure why, since they provide namespace hygiene.
2016-02-15T21:42:13Z rpg: you should ask him.
2016-02-15T21:42:20Z rpg: possibly resource issue
2016-02-15T21:43:36Z PuercoPop: rpg: thanks
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2016-02-15T21:45:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: rpg: anonymous package?
2016-02-15T21:45:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to make a package without a name?
2016-02-15T21:45:49Z rpg: ASDF used to create a new package for each system, and load the system definition file into that package.
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2016-02-15T21:46:03Z rpg: Not really anonymous -- had gensyms for names.
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2016-02-15T21:46:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah,
2016-02-15T21:48:29Z kpoi: That makes sense.
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2016-02-15T21:51:12Z kpoi: So they did it like this: (make-package (gensym))
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2016-02-15T21:51:46Z rpg: I think it was more like (gensym "ASDF") but you get the picture.
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2016-02-15T21:52:11Z kpoi: I never thought about doing something like that.
2016-02-15T21:52:14Z kpoi: neat
2016-02-15T21:52:52Z kpoi: Say, how do you get out of a package that doesn't inherit COMMON-LISP? I am trapped in my brand new G1334 package
2016-02-15T21:53:17Z mordocai: (cl:in-package) ?
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2016-02-15T21:53:40Z kpoi: Right.
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2016-02-15T21:59:42Z phoe_krk: kpoi: I did that once
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2016-02-15T22:01:38Z rpg: What's the best source for anaphoric conditional macro?
2016-02-15T22:01:49Z phoe_krk: Source?
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2016-02-15T22:04:30Z Fare: rpg: they failed to provide hygiene. They just made symbols unreachable when you needed them
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2016-02-15T22:05:01Z rpg: Fare: I thought it was something like that, but I forgot the rationale.
2016-02-15T22:05:20Z rpg: phoe_krk: library
2016-02-15T22:05:39Z PuercoPop: rpg: you can replace aif with alexandria:let-if, the result will likely be mroe readable
2016-02-15T22:06:11Z axion: IF-LET
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2016-02-15T22:06:44Z Fare: Shinmera, actually since last year it looks all implementations have ASDF 3.
2016-02-15T22:07:06Z rpg: axion, PuercoPop: Thanks! didn't realize that there was anything because of the declaration against anaphoric macros.
2016-02-15T22:07:18Z axion: i like the conditional LETs much
2016-02-15T22:07:19Z Fare: except that clisp is stuck with an antique prerelease and isn't maintained anymore
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2016-02-15T22:10:09Z Fare: in practice, with the temporary ASDF~d packages, you still had to create your own package for anything serious, so all that was left of the pseudo-hygiene was a non-standard thing that made some symbols inaccessible. All the disadvantages, none of the advantages.
2016-02-15T22:10:10Z rpg: bye for now.
2016-02-15T22:10:14Z Fare: bye!
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2016-02-15T22:46:04Z kpoi: Fare: Clisp has a way of doing it's own thing.
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2016-02-15T22:47:21Z Fare: gcl is worse
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2016-02-15T22:53:18Z rpg: Fare: if you are still around, is there an easy way to run all the lisps on a single test (instead of all the tests on a single lisp)?
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2016-02-15T22:56:09Z Fare: maybe make test-all-scripts t=test-name.script
2016-02-15T23:00:20Z rpg: OK. I'll have a look.  BTW, I'm trying to do this in lisp, with WITH-ALL-LISPS, and it seems like the GET-LISPS doesn't use the envar by default....
2016-02-15T23:01:20Z rpg: I see INITIALIZE-ENVIRONMENT
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2016-02-15T23:46:24Z rpg: Quick SLIME question: should I expect SLIME to properly indent :METHOD inside DEFGENERIC?
2016-02-15T23:46:30Z rpg: not working for me...
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2016-02-15T23:50:19Z Bike: i think you might need a special indentation contrib.
2016-02-15T23:51:44Z phoe_krk: rpg: silly question, but are you including slime-indentation inside your slime-setup?
2016-02-15T23:51:52Z phoe_krk: this fixed quite a lot of indentation issues for me.
2016-02-15T23:52:03Z rpg: phoe_krk: do I need to do that in addition to slime-fancy?
2016-02-15T23:52:25Z phoe_krk: rpg: I believe you do.
2016-02-15T23:52:45Z phoe_krk: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-mrepl slime-indentation inferior-slime))
2016-02-15T23:52:49Z phoe_krk: This is my piece of init.el
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2016-02-15T23:53:00Z phoe_krk: And it did fix a few things for me.
2016-02-15T23:53:04Z Bike: inferior superior lisp interaction mode?
2016-02-15T23:53:28Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/inferior-slime.el
2016-02-15T23:53:33Z rpg: d'oh! slime-indentation is indeed, *not* included in slime-fancy.
2016-02-15T23:53:45Z phoe_krk: Inferior SLIME mode: The Inferior Superior Lisp Mode for Emacs. indeed.
2016-02-15T23:53:53Z rpg: oh. wait. I'm actually including slime-indentation.
2016-02-15T23:54:02Z phoe_krk: oh.
2016-02-15T23:54:06Z phoe_krk: then that's weird for me.
2016-02-15T23:54:14Z rpg: slime-fancy -indentation, -tramp, and -asdf
2016-02-15T23:54:26Z PuercoPop: luis: you should consider adding slime-indentation to slime-fancy?
2016-02-15T23:54:31Z phoe_krk: Then you *might* need a custom indent of sorts.
2016-02-15T23:54:45Z rpg: so what I see is that :METHOD forms have the first form of the body lined up under the argument list, instead of "outdented"
2016-02-15T23:55:10Z phoe_krk: I don't know how to make custom indentation rules, I'm afraid.
2016-02-15T23:56:22Z rpg: I may be inadvertently crushing it....
2016-02-15T23:56:28Z rpg: I'll restart and check, thanks!
2016-02-15T23:56:40Z rpg: I have old emacs config code from before slime-indentation.
2016-02-15T23:56:58Z rpg: no, take it back -- that's not loaded.
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2016-02-15T23:57:52Z rpg: only loaded when using Franz common lisp mode. Hm.
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2016-02-16T00:01:17Z rpg: phoe_krk: looks like it's defined -- would you mind testing it?  It's definitely not working for me, and slime-indentation is in features....
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2016-02-16T00:05:19Z phoe_krk: rpg: I'm dying to sleep
2016-02-16T00:05:21Z phoe_krk: but gimme
2016-02-16T00:05:26Z rpg: agh.  Gottta go anyway.
2016-02-16T00:05:29Z phoe_krk: rpg: tomorrow
2016-02-16T00:05:30Z phoe_krk: cya
2016-02-16T00:05:34Z rpg: Catch you tomorrow! Thanks!
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2016-02-16T00:28:23Z kpoi: (#FUCK
2016-02-16T00:28:35Z kpoi: Oh buffer
2016-02-16T00:28:38Z kpoi: Wrong buffer
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2016-02-16T00:32:22Z phoe_krk: XD
2016-02-16T00:32:35Z phoe_krk: kpoi: you're doing what I think you're doing, aren't you
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2016-02-16T00:39:36Z kpoi: Yes
2016-02-16T00:40:11Z kpoi: I didn't know you could make your own reader macros so I am reading about them in Let Over Lambda
2016-02-16T00:40:23Z kpoi: PCL doesn't mention your ability to do that until the LAST CHAPTER
2016-02-16T00:40:33Z phoe_krk: :D
2016-02-16T00:40:53Z pillton: kpoi: Why is this outrageous?
2016-02-16T00:40:54Z kpoi: He (paraphrasing) writes "I haven't shown you how to parse XML"
2016-02-16T00:41:05Z kpoi: Because they seem like a useful thing
2016-02-16T00:41:34Z phoe_krk: well
2016-02-16T00:41:37Z phoe_krk: they are useful
2016-02-16T00:42:05Z kpoi: phoe_krk: most certainly
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2016-02-16T00:43:13Z phoe_krk: torlakur: wb
2016-02-16T00:43:14Z pillton: I don't think I have ever written one.
2016-02-16T00:43:49Z pillton: I'm not saying they aren't useful, but I can understand why they are mentioned in the last chapter.
2016-02-16T00:43:57Z phoe_krk: pillton: I have, and I plan on submitting a quicklisp packet based upon them.
2016-02-16T00:44:19Z phoe_krk: basically they interfere with Lisp's usual syntax which is, to put it lightly, a generalized lack of syntax. :P
2016-02-16T00:44:32Z kpoi: pillton: They aren't really mentioned, he just alludes to their existence with the XML quote I sent a minute ago
2016-02-16T00:44:53Z phoe_krk: there's an example online on how to parse JSON with a reader macro on #\[
2016-02-16T00:45:04Z kpoi: phoe_krk: I saw that one.
2016-02-16T00:45:20Z kpoi: First thing on google
2016-02-16T00:45:32Z phoe_krk: yes
2016-02-16T00:45:52Z kpoi: That is a really great example, he turns the REPL into a full blown JSON parser.
2016-02-16T00:46:05Z pillton: To do what?
2016-02-16T00:46:23Z phoe_krk: kpoi: that's how you can essentially write a compiler with reader macros.
2016-02-16T00:48:20Z kpoi: You type something like
2016-02-16T00:48:21Z kpoi: > [1, 2, 3] ;This is some JSON markup
2016-02-16T00:48:21Z kpoi: in the repl and it gets converted right into lisp:
2016-02-16T00:48:21Z kpoi: ;I don't think this is exactly how it worked, but you could make it work like this if not.
2016-02-16T00:48:23Z kpoi: He also had it for the Object syntax curly braces
2016-02-16T00:48:27Z kpoi: > { null: true}
2016-02-16T00:48:29Z kpoi:  
2016-02-16T00:48:33Z kpoi:  
2016-02-16T00:48:39Z kpoi: damn I wasn't done with that
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2016-02-16T00:49:40Z Fare: kpoi: you can also use reader-interception...
2016-02-16T00:49:40Z kpoi: Anyway type something like
2016-02-16T00:49:40Z kpoi: > [1, 2, 3]
2016-02-16T00:49:41Z kpoi: (1 2 3)
2016-02-16T00:49:41Z kpoi: > {null: true}
2016-02-16T00:49:43Z kpoi: (NIL (T))
2016-02-16T00:49:46Z kpoi: And that is similar to what he did.
2016-02-16T00:50:10Z kpoi: What is that
2016-02-16T00:50:12Z kpoi: ?
2016-02-16T00:50:20Z kpoi: Fare:
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2016-02-16T00:52:05Z Fare: http://cliki.net/reader-interception
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2016-02-16T00:52:16Z learning: does lisp have support for audio in the standard library or do i need to use a third party lib?
2016-02-16T00:52:46Z learning: im searching the docs but im not finding anything
2016-02-16T00:53:23Z Bike: not in the standard.
2016-02-16T00:53:35Z Bike: i think you can use mixalot.
2016-02-16T00:55:17Z learning: lame, i'll have to write my own then it looks like
2016-02-16T00:55:24Z learning: i want to do really low level stuff
2016-02-16T00:56:11Z learning: bookmarked mixalot
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2016-02-16T00:57:58Z learning: if anyone else has worked with audio and has an open source library to reccomend please do
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2016-02-16T01:00:18Z PuercoPop: learning: not my lib, but there is this WIP https://github.com/rick-monster/cl-alsaseq
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2016-02-16T01:01:06Z learning: bookmarked. thank you
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2016-02-16T01:33:15Z Fare: learning: there's mixalot if you don't care too much about timing, or incudine if you do
2016-02-16T01:33:48Z Fare: I found that with mixalot I get a lot of jitter. But I'm probably not using it well.
2016-02-16T01:34:20Z Fare: for really low-level stuff, try incudine
2016-02-16T01:34:48Z Fare: or then again, outside cl, there's supercollider or extempore. Or in clojure, overtone or klangmeister
2016-02-16T01:34:59Z Fare: learning: are you still there?
2016-02-16T01:35:37Z Fare: racket has stuff, too
2016-02-16T01:37:57Z kpoi: You could use FFI
2016-02-16T01:38:28Z kpoi: or UFFI
2016-02-16T01:38:58Z edgar-rft: There's also cl-portaudio: <http://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cl-portaudio/>
2016-02-16T01:39:24Z kpoi: Probably better not to use FFI/UFFI, there is plenty of native code.
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2016-02-16T01:59:53Z learning: incudine is what im looking for i think
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2016-02-16T03:33:58Z drmeister: Is there anyone who uses LaTeX and includes Common Lisp source code snippets?
2016-02-16T03:35:01Z drmeister: What do you use to include source code?   verbatim mode looks ok but I haven't figured out how to get captions or labels/refs.
2016-02-16T03:35:17Z drmeister: I tried the {listings} package - but that makes Common Lisp look like dog food.
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2016-02-16T03:54:50Z Bike: that is probably only beach.
2016-02-16T03:55:19Z Bike: i used listings, but that was for python, and i still had to fix some shit.
2016-02-16T03:56:51Z Bike: it looks like listings only professes to support autolisp. is that why it's dog food?
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2016-02-16T04:28:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-02-16T04:28:36Z blub: hi beach
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2016-02-16T04:30:05Z beach: drmeister: Look in the SICL Specification directory.  Look for \inputcode in TeX files and look at the shell script named codify.
2016-02-16T04:31:08Z Opodeldoc: beach: I shot you an email couple or few hours back. Wasn't sure which to use so I sent it to the one in the paper
2016-02-16T04:31:44Z beach: Might not work.  Try robert.strandh@gmail.com.
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2016-02-16T04:35:35Z Opodeldoc: beach: resent \o/
2016-02-16T04:36:05Z beach: Got it!  Thanks!
2016-02-16T04:36:30Z beach: I'll get to it as soon as I am a bit more awake.
2016-02-16T04:36:58Z Opodeldoc: beach: What seemed actually important e.g. typos are marked with =>
2016-02-16T04:37:12Z Opodeldoc: The rest is largely overcaffeinated babbling :)
2016-02-16T04:37:24Z beach: OK.  Good to know. :)
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2016-02-16T04:39:28Z beach: Opodeldoc: Some of your remarks I'll have to run by my wife, who has a PhD in English and who is a member of the IBM style and word-usage council.
2016-02-16T04:39:49Z Opodeldoc: beach: Sounds good
2016-02-16T04:40:12Z Opodeldoc: beach: Are you going to wind up using this for climacs?
2016-02-16T04:40:23Z beach: Yes, for Second Climacs.
2016-02-16T04:41:11Z Opodeldoc: Hell yes.
2016-02-16T04:41:33Z beach: For (First) Climacs, it is more complicated, because it used Drei which is part of McCLIM, so I would have to make sure I don't break input editing in McCLIM if I were to use Cluffer there.
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2016-02-16T04:53:32Z beach: I take it you approve of putting Cluffer into Second Climacs, yes?
2016-02-16T04:53:46Z Opodeldoc: beach: I never got my head around clim-anything tbh. I'd just love to see some syntax hilighting that isn't just blind matching of characters :)
2016-02-16T04:54:59Z beach: OK.  (First) Climacs already does a better job than Emacs in that respect, but the technique used is wrong and unmaintainable.  For Second Climacs I have a much better idea of how to do it.
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2016-02-16T04:59:29Z beach: For Second Climacs, I also plan to have a better isolation between the model and the user interface, so that I can put a CLIM II GUI on it now, and a CLIM3/CLIMatis interface later when it is available.
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2016-02-16T05:03:39Z Opodeldoc: I may have to take a try at getting climacs running :)
2016-02-16T05:05:33Z beach: (First) Climacs seems to work out of the box.  Second Climacs is not ready yet.
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2016-02-16T05:05:59Z beach: It should be available through Quicklisp.
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2016-02-16T05:16:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just quickloaded (first) climacs and it seemed to work fine.
2016-02-16T05:16:37Z Quadrescence: fiddlerwoaroof type (climacs:climacs)   !!
2016-02-16T05:16:39Z beach: Great!  Thanks.
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2016-02-16T05:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Quadrescence: I did
2016-02-16T05:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, when I hit C-x f in a blank buffer, it enters the debugger
2016-02-16T05:18:14Z beach: :(
2016-02-16T05:19:12Z beach: I confirm. :(
2016-02-16T05:19:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+6L67
2016-02-16T05:20:10Z beach: Yes, I can reproduce it here.
2016-02-16T05:20:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was also just checking out gsharp via quickload
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2016-02-16T05:20:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: That didn't want to work at all.
2016-02-16T05:20:59Z beach: I am so sorry to hear that.
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2016-02-16T05:21:15Z beach: That's another one I wanted to make a second version of.
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2016-02-16T05:21:57Z beach: But my remaining life expectancy is only around 20 years, and I am not sure I will have time to do all this.
2016-02-16T05:22:51Z beach: ... which is why I need an apprentice or 10.
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2016-02-16T05:23:49Z Opodeldoc: beach: I can't for the life of me find a reference, but I'm pretty certain both nvi and vim also just use a gap buffer
2016-02-16T05:24:02Z Zhivago: On the positive side, it will probably all be irrelevant in 20 years in any case. :
2016-02-16T05:24:24Z beach: Opodeldoc: Entirely possible, yes.
2016-02-16T05:25:30Z beach: Zhivago: Thanks for the encouragement.
2016-02-16T05:25:47Z Zhivago: No problem.
2016-02-16T05:26:03Z beach takes a break.
2016-02-16T05:26:15Z Opodeldoc: It seems the vim author is also behind http://www.zimbu.org/Home
2016-02-16T05:26:29Z Opodeldoc: I guess if you don't just use lisp you have to reinvent everything...
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2016-02-16T05:42:45Z opal:  ___
2016-02-16T05:42:46Z opal: < λ >
2016-02-16T05:42:47Z opal:  ---
2016-02-16T05:42:48Z opal:   \                 __
2016-02-16T05:42:49Z opal:    \               (oo)
2016-02-16T05:42:50Z opal:     \              (  )
2016-02-16T05:42:51Z opal:      \             /--\
2016-02-16T05:42:52Z opal:        __         / \  \
2016-02-16T05:42:53Z opal:       UooU\.'@@@@@@`.\  )
2016-02-16T05:42:54Z opal:       \__/(@@@@@@@@@@) /
2016-02-16T05:42:55Z opal:            (@@@@@@@@)((
2016-02-16T05:42:56Z opal:            `YY~~~~YY' \\
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2016-02-16T05:42:57Z opal:             ||    ||   >>
2016-02-16T05:43:02Z opal: that is all
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2016-02-16T05:55:45Z moore33: beach: Around?
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2016-02-16T05:58:48Z Opodeldoc: Was ~half hour ago
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2016-02-16T06:01:43Z beach: moore33: Yes.
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2016-02-16T06:02:58Z moore33: beach: Good morning! I'm reading http://www.infoq.com/articles/no-more-mvc-frameworks, which you might find interesting with your CLIM hat on.
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2016-02-16T06:04:08Z moore33: A lot of JavaScript / Web jargon, but that's not too hard to navigate.
2016-02-16T06:04:11Z beach: Looks interesting, yes.
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2016-02-16T06:05:01Z beach: I have been against explicit view updates with (say) observers for a very long time.
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2016-02-16T06:08:57Z beach: moore33: It's a bit long.  I need to read it a little at a time.
2016-02-16T06:09:22Z emaczen: What runtime tools exist for viewing/querying the last called methods?
2016-02-16T06:09:23Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: yes, there's at least one OSX app in the App Store written in CCL: 'Clozure CL.app'.
2016-02-16T06:09:23Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: you need to write a wrapper Objective-C class with a lisp slot refering to your lisp object.
2016-02-16T06:10:42Z Opodeldoc: I'm given to understand the smalltalk folks are starting to frown on MVC too
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2016-02-16T06:15:36Z moore33: beach: yeah, it's long. Good bus / bathroom reading.
2016-02-16T06:15:54Z Opodeldoc: "you don’t necessarily get this warm feeling that, even at Google, people know what they are doing:" haha
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2016-02-16T06:16:43Z moore33: Opodeldoc: yes, it's quite funny.
2016-02-16T06:17:08Z Opodeldoc: "The core package of Angular 2 alone has 180 semantics," my god is that for real
2016-02-16T06:17:16Z Opodeldoc: Good day to not be a web dev sheesh
2016-02-16T06:18:31Z blub: not a semantic too many
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2016-02-16T06:19:56Z moore33: Off to walk Zep.
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2016-02-16T06:22:46Z beach: Recently, from reading articles and now this web page, I have detected a change in the way "API" is used.
2016-02-16T06:23:28Z beach: It now appears to mean "The means by which a web server communicates with the client web browser".
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2016-02-16T06:27:33Z smokeink: when it comes to web dev, api usually means the backend that responds with 'json data'
2016-02-16T06:28:02Z beach: I see.
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2016-02-16T06:29:46Z beach: No wonder I had a hard time understanding those articles I read, given the definition in my mind of "API".
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2016-02-16T06:32:36Z Opodeldoc: It's safe to assume anything web means something different, as they're reinventing bloody everything.
2016-02-16T06:32:48Z smokeink: haha
2016-02-16T06:33:20Z beach: I am beginning to understand that.
2016-02-16T06:34:38Z Opodeldoc: I still read "sandbox" as "half-assed version of process isolation"
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2016-02-16T06:57:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: by "explicit view updates" do you mean that the view should not be able to request an update?
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2016-02-16T07:02:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just reading an article by a smalltalk guy about how everyone gets MVC wrong.
2016-02-16T07:02:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://blog.metaobject.com/2015/04/model-widget-controller-mwc-aka-apple.html
2016-02-16T07:03:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'm off.
2016-02-16T07:03:44Z Opodeldoc: Ask them how they feel about c++ "objects" :]
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2016-02-16T07:09:23Z Opodeldoc: "Right now we write UIs by poking at them, manually mutating their properties when something changes, adding and removing views, etc. This is fragile and error-prone. Some tools exist to lessen the pain, but they can only go so far. UIs are big, messy, mutable, stateful bags of sadness."
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2016-02-16T07:16:06Z emaczen: What are you guys using for UIs?
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2016-02-16T07:18:54Z z0d: curses or web mainly
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2016-02-16T07:24:47Z emaczen: z0d: What is curses?
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2016-02-16T07:25:02Z Opodeldoc: roguelike
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2016-02-16T07:25:32Z Opodeldoc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ncurses
2016-02-16T07:25:56Z Opodeldoc: curses is part of posix standard, the actual implementation tends to be ncurses
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2016-02-16T07:27:30Z emaczen: interesting -- now I know what the GUI is made from (or somethign similar) when my OS crashes lol
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2016-02-16T07:28:16Z z0d: curses is terminal based.
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2016-02-16T07:28:30Z Opodeldoc: lynx, elinks, w3m (browsers), or games like nethack use curses
2016-02-16T07:28:36Z z0d: yeah
2016-02-16T07:28:44Z z0d: or Midnight Commander
2016-02-16T07:29:04Z z0d: heck, even 'emacs -nw'
2016-02-16T07:29:30Z Opodeldoc: duh! of course. vi and emacs and nano and pico and mutt and.....
2016-02-16T07:30:25Z Opodeldoc: I think freebsd's installer is curses
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2016-02-16T07:31:12Z Opodeldoc: I knew there was an obvious example. I can't believe I didn't think of editors hah
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2016-02-16T07:32:29Z Opodeldoc: screen and tmux probably use the hell out of curses
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2016-02-16T07:46:02Z p_l: I've recently seen a rare nowadays beast - a graphical dashboard in curses
2016-02-16T07:46:13Z p_l: which graphed system stats
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2016-02-16T07:47:25Z myrkraverk: Oh, that's interesting.  People did a lot of cool things with softfonts in real terminals too.
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2016-02-16T07:47:58Z myrkraverk: Anyway, I am wondering, the SBCL garbage collector is essentially single threaded, right?
2016-02-16T07:48:29Z myrkraverk: So, if one thread holds a reference to something, another thread will not garbage collect it?  Is what I mean to ask.
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2016-02-16T07:48:49Z p_l: myrkraverk: no, SBCL stops all threads for GC
2016-02-16T07:48:53Z p_l: i.e. "Stop the World"
2016-02-16T07:49:46Z p_l: then, a single-threaded GC happens, in this case single-threaded means it marks and collects from a signle thread
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2016-02-16T07:50:35Z myrkraverk: I am going to use a CFFI binding in multithreaded envirnmont, and am wondering what (if anything) I need to make thread safe on the C level.  (I have already reviewed the C++ code I'm binding)
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2016-02-16T07:52:10Z Opodeldoc: p_l like htop or something else?
2016-02-16T07:52:28Z p_l: Opodeldoc: no, htop does simple horizontal bars - I mean things like line charts :)
2016-02-16T07:52:34Z Opodeldoc: ooo
2016-02-16T07:52:47Z Opodeldoc: mrtg type stuff
2016-02-16T07:53:08Z p_l: and that's on a limited ANSI terminal, unlike on advanced stuff in XTerm (which does vector graphics if you ask it) or one of the crazier DEC VT-series with programmable fonts
2016-02-16T07:55:06Z myrkraverk pats his crazy VT with programmable fonts.
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2016-02-16T07:56:31Z p_l: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/algernon/potential-happiness/master/docs/screenshots/screenshot-2.png
2016-02-16T07:57:59Z Opodeldoc: Holy shit those *are* graphs
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2016-02-16T07:58:01Z Opodeldoc: That's near
2016-02-16T07:58:03Z Opodeldoc: neat*
2016-02-16T07:58:09Z myrkraverk: Anyway, I have (defcfun ("new_..." ...)) and (defcfun ("delete_..."...)) wrapped up in CLOS with sb-ext:finalize.  So, I am not at all worried that one thread will finalize something, while another is using it.
2016-02-16T07:58:12Z myrkraverk: Right?
2016-02-16T07:58:36Z myrkraverk: (as long as I got my CLOS wrappers correct, that is)
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2016-02-16T08:01:36Z myrkraverk: p_l: that is lovely.
2016-02-16T08:01:41Z Shinmera: minion: memo for drmeister: I use the minted package, which has highlighting for a huge number of things, including CL. It looks really nice-- I used it for my ELS lightning talks https://github.com/Shinmera/talks/blob/master/els2015-qtools/slides.tex
2016-02-16T08:01:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-02-16T08:01:48Z myrkraverk: I almost want to do something similar, myself now.
2016-02-16T08:01:52Z Opodeldoc: I've no clue, but I'd imagine if that were an issue threads + ffi would simply be unusable. My guess would be as long as some thread can see it, the GC will leave it alone.
2016-02-16T08:02:16Z myrkraverk: Opodeldoc: yeah, thanks.
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2016-02-16T08:02:57Z Shinmera: emaczen: Qtools. http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/
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2016-02-16T08:08:55Z p_l: minion: memo for drmeister: I second 'minted' suggestion, used it in my Master's thesis, with Clojure but yes, it handles lisp nicely :)
2016-02-16T08:08:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-02-16T08:09:25Z p_l: myrkraverk: the very reason SBCL does stop-the-world is to ensure only GC is manipulating things at the time
2016-02-16T08:09:33Z myrkraverk: Ok, good.
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2016-02-16T08:10:39Z Winowa: hi guys i have a question from opencl
2016-02-16T08:10:39Z z0d: p_l: the source seems to be JS. am I missing something? I mean, it's not curses
2016-02-16T08:11:01Z Winowa: is it possible to add integer datas from defstructs?
2016-02-16T08:11:13Z p_l: z0d: it uses terminal in the end, and it's doable with curses - I put it more of an example of "how far you can go" rather than code example
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2016-02-16T08:12:32Z z0d: I see
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2016-02-16T09:18:04Z myrkraverk: This is what happens when your CL library sucks balls. http://paste.lisp.org/display/307388
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2016-02-16T09:18:49Z myrkraverk: At least, according to the code I browsed online (which could be old) it doesn't provide any details of which variable, section or whatever is missing, when it signals a condition.
2016-02-16T09:19:18Z myrkraverk: Maybe that "behaviour" was borrowed from the python library, but still; this sucks.
2016-02-16T09:21:03Z Opodeldoc: hah
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2016-02-16T12:26:36Z igam: DeadTrickster: one would have to port openjdk to Android; it should not be impossible to do (but then, it wouldn't help to write Android applications! You'd have to fork a JVM process just like you'd fork a ECL process…)
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2016-02-16T13:01:15Z phoe_krk: igam: thanks!
2016-02-16T13:01:33Z phoe_krk: Yes, I realized that FLET doesn't allow recursion the moment I tried to compile it. I fixed that mistake that very moment.
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2016-02-16T13:52:10Z Winowa: hi there
2016-02-16T13:52:15Z Winowa: anyone around?
2016-02-16T13:52:23Z phoe_krk: Winowa: quite probably, yes.
2016-02-16T13:52:26Z phoe_krk: just ask your question.~
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2016-02-16T13:52:30Z Shinmera: Hiding in the shadows.
2016-02-16T13:52:30Z Winowa: i am new in common lisp
2016-02-16T13:52:38Z phoe_krk: Winowa: congratulations!
2016-02-16T13:52:45Z Winowa: trying to get a way to run a temp variable ( that would be in c++)
2016-02-16T13:52:49Z phoe_krk: #clnoobs is a topic you might also want to join.
2016-02-16T13:52:49Z Winowa: thanks haha
2016-02-16T13:52:57Z phoe_krk: (let ((x 10)) (+ x 20))
2016-02-16T13:53:04Z Winowa: aites will try that later
2016-02-16T13:53:04Z phoe_krk: Basically, use LET.
2016-02-16T13:53:17Z Winowa: but let is a local variable
2016-02-16T13:53:38Z ggole: Do you want a global?
2016-02-16T13:53:39Z phoe_krk: A temporary variable? What do you mean, then?
2016-02-16T13:53:41Z Winowa: i will need to access a defstruct where the datas are in it
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2016-02-16T13:53:46Z Winowa: and do some equation
2016-02-16T13:54:18Z Winowa: Lets say i have a map and want to find the shortest path using an alogrithm
2016-02-16T13:54:31Z phoe_krk: Let's clear it up.
2016-02-16T13:54:37Z phoe_krk: Do you have an example of the code you have?
2016-02-16T13:54:42Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T13:54:45Z phoe_krk: Gimme.
2016-02-16T13:54:49Z phoe_krk: Examples always help.
2016-02-16T13:54:50Z Winowa: i will paste it ib paste lisp
2016-02-16T13:55:17Z Fare: Winowa: you look for the shortest path to the algorithm
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2016-02-16T13:56:26Z igam: Winowa: perhaps you want WITH-ACCESSORS? (defstruct point x y) (with-accessors ((x point-x) (y point-y)) (make-point :x 2 :y 3) (+ x y)) #| --> 5 |#
2016-02-16T13:56:57Z Winowa: http://paste.lisp.org/+6L6W
2016-02-16T13:57:16Z Winowa: igam: that is too complex i didnt learn that in class
2016-02-16T13:57:43Z Winowa: using with-accessors
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2016-02-16T13:58:41Z Winowa: well from the example i have. the function SLD is not done yet but i am supposed to do is (+ SLD to USC)
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2016-02-16T13:58:54Z Winowa: for USC once travelled it will count from the beginning to the end
2016-02-16T14:00:30Z phoe_krk: (+ SLD to USC) will add the value of SLD, the value of to and the value of USC.
2016-02-16T14:00:39Z phoe_krk: What's the value of SLD?
2016-02-16T14:00:42Z phoe_krk: What's the value of to?
2016-02-16T14:00:46Z phoe_krk: What's the value of USC?
2016-02-16T14:01:51Z Winowa: http://imgur.com/a/9gvp5
2016-02-16T14:01:58Z Winowa: this might help explain. map is in the picture
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2016-02-16T14:02:56Z blub: what was wrong with let for temporary variables ?
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2016-02-16T14:07:52Z Winowa: i want to show the output of all roads travelled at the end, finding the shortest path. The way i wrote it doesnt allow a single fucntion to calculate everything
2016-02-16T14:08:24Z Winowa: i will need to revisit the defstruct do the equation the store the new value
2016-02-16T14:09:19Z Winowa: and my question will be is it okay to write the temp using a defclass?
2016-02-16T14:09:58Z phoe_krk: Winowa: are you doing Dijkstra's algorithm?
2016-02-16T14:10:32Z Winowa: phoe_krk not really it's A* Search actaully
2016-02-16T14:12:12Z Winowa: phoe_krk: not really it's A* Search actaully
2016-02-16T14:12:13Z blub: how would you define your temp variable in c++
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2016-02-16T14:13:16Z Winowa: just initialize a temp variable then transfer it over to another value for string process
2016-02-16T14:14:16Z Winowa: blub: in Lisp i transfer the value of everything to another empty variable. not that i know of.
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2016-02-16T14:14:59Z Winowa: in c++ would be like var temp; temp = SLD + USC; distance = temp;
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2016-02-16T14:15:15Z phoe_krk: uh
2016-02-16T14:15:28Z phoe_krk: (defvar temp)
2016-02-16T14:15:28Z phoe_krk: (setf temp (+ SLD USC))
2016-02-16T14:15:28Z phoe_krk: (setf distance temp)
2016-02-16T14:15:41Z phoe_krk: if you want to write C++ in Lisp, then it's surely done like that
2016-02-16T14:15:42Z p_l: why defvar, that increases the time of existence of said var...
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2016-02-16T14:15:58Z phoe_krk: if he doesn't want to use let for some reason
2016-02-16T14:16:13Z phoe_krk: he could just as well (let ((distance (+ SLD USC))) ...)
2016-02-16T14:16:21Z Winowa: can you demonstrate the let version as well?
2016-02-16T14:16:25Z phoe_krk: I just did
2016-02-16T14:16:28Z phoe_krk: that's a one-liner
2016-02-16T14:16:37Z phoe_krk: and avoids an unnecessary temp variable
2016-02-16T14:16:45Z blub: (let ((x (+ sdl usc))) (setf distance x)) would work fine
2016-02-16T14:16:59Z blub: you don't have a dangling pointer problem like in c++, lisp is garbage collected
2016-02-16T14:17:56Z blub: i mean ya, if that's what you want to do. it's not clear why you aren't just initialising distance directly
2016-02-16T14:18:07Z p_l: when you really, really need to have the variable stop existing after the block, you can use dynamic-extent hint
2016-02-16T14:18:18Z Winowa: i see. Learning Lisp is like seeing in 3D when it was 2D all this while. haha
2016-02-16T14:18:32Z phoe_krk: Winowa: be prepared to have your mind blown a few times
2016-02-16T14:19:00Z phoe_krk: Winowa: also, you completely don't need to go OO in this case! you can hold your data in a simple alist.
2016-02-16T14:19:42Z Winowa: phoe_krk: that was i plan to do at first but i can find examples of alist calling out the value for additions later on
2016-02-16T14:19:56Z phoe_krk: why?
2016-02-16T14:19:57Z Winowa: *cant
2016-02-16T14:20:13Z phoe_krk: (setf alist (cons (cons 182 "Random Place") alist))
2016-02-16T14:20:25Z phoe_krk: if it's a global symbol
2016-02-16T14:20:40Z Winowa: that will be a lot of redundancy wouldnt it?
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2016-02-16T14:21:02Z Winowa: unless i create object of "map A" where it shows how many possible routes it can travel
2016-02-16T14:21:04Z phoe_krk: Winowa: or write a function that travels the alist and searches it for a value - if it doesn't find anything, it appends a new value to the end.
2016-02-16T14:21:18Z phoe_krk: It's O(n) with little overhead, should do for such tiny amounts of data.
2016-02-16T14:21:31Z phoe_krk: I mean, for the defstructs you've been making.
2016-02-16T14:21:55Z Winowa: when you meant a function does it meant defclass or defun?
2016-02-16T14:21:56Z phoe_krk: '((140 . "Sibiu") (75 ."Zerind") (118 . "Timisora") (140 ."Arad") ...)
2016-02-16T14:22:01Z phoe_krk: A function? I mean defun.
2016-02-16T14:22:05Z phoe_krk: To be completely honest.
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2016-02-16T14:22:20Z phoe_krk: Going OO, as in, defstruct/defclass/defgeneric/defmethod is a *complete* overkill in this case.
2016-02-16T14:22:56Z Winowa: i wanted to make the program a lot smarter where it could break down its own subtree and inheritance at fist
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2016-02-16T14:23:02Z Winowa: buty time is not on my side
2016-02-16T14:23:03Z Winowa: haha
2016-02-16T14:23:07Z phoe_krk: Inheritance?
2016-02-16T14:23:16Z phoe_krk: You don't need to inherit anything I think.
2016-02-16T14:23:48Z phoe_krk: You can easily implement a tree using nested lists, Lisp is good at that.
2016-02-16T14:24:10Z phoe_krk: And reach into the tree using car/cdr/their variants.
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2016-02-16T14:25:19Z phoe_krk: Bbl, food.
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2016-02-16T14:26:32Z phoe_krk: One more thing: in Lisp, basically: *don't modify - return*. That's the aspect of functional programming that Lisp has and it pays off rather naturally and well, especially when working with treelike structures.
2016-02-16T14:26:43Z clintm: Do any of you happen to use ningle?  I'm trying to figure out how to stop an app, but *app* isn't the right class for (clack:stop)... though it was fine for (clack:clackup)
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2016-02-16T14:27:03Z phoe_krk: Setf things that need to be setfed, but many of them simply don't need to be setfed.
2016-02-16T14:27:18Z phoe_krk: Bbl
2016-02-16T14:27:24Z Winowa: phoe_krk : thanks i will look into these. Will be back if i have more questions
2016-02-16T14:28:18Z phoe_krk: Winowa: If you're coming from a C/CPP/Java background, Lisp is, before anything, a change of mindset.
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2016-02-16T14:28:39Z phoe_krk: In there, you basically go "var = newvalue; for something { somethingelse; }" and so on.
2016-02-16T14:29:19Z phoe_krk: It's different in Lisp. Returning values here pays off better than it does in C-like languages.
2016-02-16T14:29:28Z phoe_krk: Bbl for real now. :P
2016-02-16T14:29:33Z Winowa: haha ok
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2016-02-16T14:32:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: clintm: the return value of (clack:clackup) is the thing to stop
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2016-02-16T14:32:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: If that's not around anymore, for some reason, use bordeaux threads to kill the web server's thread.
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2016-02-16T14:33:15Z clintm: fiddlerwoaroof: oh, hah.. look at that.  Thank you!
2016-02-16T14:33:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I do the latter when working quite a bit, after I accidentally rebind my *HANDLER* variable)
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2016-02-16T14:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or you can do something like this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-oid-connect/blob/master/demo.lisp#L35
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2016-02-16T14:37:51Z clintm: oh no kidding... (let over the defuns.  Learning that was one of my first "omg lisp uber alles" moments.  Thank you for reminding me.
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2016-02-16T14:54:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I remember the feeling: something like "wow, closures are basically objects without all the boilerplate"
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2016-02-16T14:56:44Z moore33: Closures were invented in an effort to understand actors and OOP.
2016-02-16T14:59:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: moore33: weren't they invented to make lexical scope work?
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2016-02-16T15:00:19Z moore33: fiddlerwoaroof: Lexical scope had "worked" for years, in several different languages. The capture of environments was new.
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2016-02-16T15:04:08Z blub: fiddlerwoaroof: in c++, lambdas are literally just syntactic sugar for creating an instance of an anonymous class with an operator() method
2016-02-16T15:04:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: blub: yeah, Java does that too
2016-02-16T15:05:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, PHP does something similar, I think.
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2016-02-16T15:06:15Z DeadTrickster: or like C# implements async
2016-02-16T15:06:27Z DeadTrickster: bunch of auto-generated classes
2016-02-16T15:06:44Z DeadTrickster: with your local vars converted to fields
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2016-02-16T15:12:00Z fiddlerwoaroof finds this quite funny: http://stackoverflow.com/a/4754925/13099
2016-02-16T15:12:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: (link to a site for determining whether a project is still maintained goes to an unmaintained domain)
2016-02-16T15:13:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, back to writing PHP . . .
2016-02-16T15:13:27Z moore33: blub: That's quite a lot of syntactic sugar! Closures can mutate the the environment above them to an arbitrary degree.
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2016-02-16T15:25:17Z blub: moore33: you have to specify which variables you want to close over, or if you're inside of a class there's special syntax for closing over all of the member variables. if you capture them by reference, then the variables inside the lambda will refer to the same variables as those of the enclosing scope: int x = 1; [&x](){ x = 2; }(); std::cout << x << std::endl; // prints 2
2016-02-16T15:29:13Z moore33: blub: For some reason I read "Java" instead of C++. Yeah, I'm familiar with C++ lambdas, and it is useful to see the implementation of closures made explicit like that.
2016-02-16T15:29:29Z phoe_krk: haha
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2016-02-16T15:40:12Z rpg: phoe_krk: If I was to lisppaste a bit of code, would you mind checking to see if SLIME indents it properly?
2016-02-16T15:40:28Z phoe_krk: rpg: sure thing
2016-02-16T15:40:40Z phoe_krk: I'll give you screenshots and/or lisppaste in return
2016-02-16T15:42:55Z rpg: phoe_krk: Here it is: http://pastebin.com/HN0jgGF0
2016-02-16T15:43:12Z rpg: When I let SLIME indent it, the line under the :METHOD isn't indented properly.
2016-02-16T15:43:57Z phoe_krk: rpg: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307405
2016-02-16T15:44:25Z rpg: doesn't work for you, either.
2016-02-16T15:44:28Z PuercoPop: rpg: it is indented properly in sly for me
2016-02-16T15:44:44Z blub: me too
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2016-02-16T15:45:37Z PuercoPop: Though my guess is that it is slime-indentation not being loaded, but given that after yesterday you have it loaded it must be something else.
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2016-02-16T15:46:57Z rpg: PuercoPop: I'm pretty sure it's not that -- (member 'slime-indentation features) returns a true value.
2016-02-16T15:47:08Z rpg: And phoe_krk also sees the same wrong behavior.
2016-02-16T15:47:22Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: it's loaded.
2016-02-16T15:47:22Z rpg: The line after :METHOD should be indented like the first line of a DEFUN, but it is not.
2016-02-16T15:47:35Z phoe_krk: Or, actually, how can I check whether it is loaded?
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2016-02-16T15:47:43Z rpg: bleah -- debugging elisp indentation is horrible.
2016-02-16T15:47:57Z rpg: phoe_krk:  (member 'slime-indentation features)
2016-02-16T15:48:23Z rpg: PuercoPop: I also checked and the indent property is set to what I would expect...
2016-02-16T15:48:31Z phoe_krk: ielm responds with non-nil to that.
2016-02-16T15:48:38Z phoe_krk: so it's loaded.
2016-02-16T15:48:55Z jackdaniel: slime has a bug, that if the buffer isn't a file on the disk (in *scratch* buffer) it indents improperly some forms
2016-02-16T15:49:02Z jackdaniel: idk if it's revelant here
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2016-02-16T15:49:27Z jackdaniel: s/in/ie/
2016-02-16T15:50:36Z PuercoPop: rpg: ah I just checkout out a potential problem. There are two contribs for indentation
2016-02-16T15:50:50Z phoe_krk: uh
2016-02-16T15:50:51Z PuercoPop: I'm using the equivalent of slime-cl-indent.el
2016-02-16T15:50:52Z phoe_krk: lemme see
2016-02-16T15:50:59Z PuercoPop: not slime-indentation
2016-02-16T15:51:03Z rpg: PuercoPop: Oh, I'm using slime-indentation.
2016-02-16T15:51:45Z phoe_krk: ...
2016-02-16T15:51:51Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel, rpg: it's this.
2016-02-16T15:51:51Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307405#1
2016-02-16T15:51:55Z rpg: PuercoPop: slime-indentation requires slime-cl-indent
2016-02-16T15:51:57Z phoe_krk: I saved the file and reindented.
2016-02-16T15:52:03Z phoe_krk: Pop, it changed.
2016-02-16T15:52:15Z rpg: phoe_krk: that looks right.
2016-02-16T15:52:26Z rpg: That is *really weird*
2016-02-16T15:52:30Z phoe_krk: rpg: save the buffer to disk and try again.
2016-02-16T15:52:33Z phoe_krk: Is what I did.
2016-02-16T15:53:06Z rpg: phoe_krk: very specifically? save the buffer, select the function, C-M-\ or something else?
2016-02-16T15:53:12Z phoe_krk: uh
2016-02-16T15:53:15Z phoe_krk: save the buffer to disk
2016-02-16T15:53:18Z phoe_krk: I did that
2016-02-16T15:53:30Z phoe_krk: came into the function with the point again, like, clicked on it
2016-02-16T15:53:31Z phoe_krk: and magic
2016-02-16T15:55:38Z rpg: "clicked on it"?
2016-02-16T15:56:26Z rpg: what does  that mean, please?
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2016-02-16T15:57:50Z PuercoPop: I would just save, C-x h <tab> to check
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2016-02-16T15:59:35Z rpg: PuercoPop: yeah, that gives me the bad result.
2016-02-16T15:59:55Z rpg: I'm interested to know *EXACTLY* what phoe_krk did, since saving the buffer should be a no-op wrt indentation.
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2016-02-16T16:00:21Z rpg: C-x h <tab> borks my buffer comprehensively.
2016-02-16T16:00:38Z rpg: I.e., definitely breaks all of the :METHOD indentations.
2016-02-16T16:01:04Z rpg: phoe_krk: what did you click on, and what, if anything was selected? Also why would clicking on a function trigger reindentatino?
2016-02-16T16:01:15Z rpg: s/reindentatino/reindentation/
2016-02-16T16:03:47Z phoe_krk: rpg: aggressive-indent, which I have on, I believe.
2016-02-16T16:03:59Z rpg: PuercoPop: so does that mean you use slime-cl-indent *without* slime-indentation?
2016-02-16T16:04:07Z rpg: phoe_krk: Oh. Hm. I don't use that.
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2016-02-16T16:04:37Z PuercoPop: rpg: to be clear, I use sly, the slime fork. but yeah I only use sly-cl-indent (which may be the wrong way of doing it)
2016-02-16T16:05:18Z rpg: phoe_krk: What happens if you select the function (the defgeneric form) and do C-M-\ (indent region)?
2016-02-16T16:05:38Z rpg: Trying to figure out why it works for you sometimes and not others.  And what saving the buffer could have to do with anything.
2016-02-16T16:08:05Z phoe_krk: uh
2016-02-16T16:08:08Z phoe_krk: it gets repaired
2016-02-16T16:08:28Z phoe_krk: like
2016-02-16T16:08:31Z phoe_krk: indented properly
2016-02-16T16:08:43Z phoe_krk: sorry, ggt
2016-02-16T16:08:44Z phoe_krk: gtg
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2016-02-16T16:10:21Z rpg: OK, then slime-indentation works for you and not for me.
2016-02-16T16:10:27Z rpg: thx!
2016-02-16T16:10:29Z phoe_krk: rpg:
2016-02-16T16:10:31Z phoe_krk: slime-mode
2016-02-16T16:10:35Z phoe_krk: you have that, right?
2016-02-16T16:10:41Z phoe_krk: hooked to lisp-mode
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2016-02-16T16:25:05Z rpg: phoe_krk: yes, slime is working fine in other ways.
2016-02-16T16:25:34Z phoe_krk: rpg: is your Lisp buffer in slime-mode?
2016-02-16T16:25:46Z phoe_krk: As in the slime minor mode?
2016-02-16T16:25:58Z phoe_krk: If yes, then I'm blank and don't know.
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2016-02-16T16:26:07Z rpg: phoe_krk: Yes.
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2016-02-16T17:13:10Z plertrood: Using CL-Interpose I can load my lisp files fine but if I try to compile a single function that contains #?”..” string via slime I get the following error :
2016-02-16T17:13:52Z plertrood: Reader error on #<BASIC-FILE-CHARACTER-INPUT-STREAM.. Undefined character #\? in a #\# dipatch macro.
2016-02-16T17:14:39Z plertrood: To compile the file I have to call (enable-interpol-syntax) at the start which fixes up the reader somehow..
2016-02-16T17:14:57Z plertrood: Any ideas how I can fix up the Swank reader to do the same?
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2016-02-16T17:20:42Z warweasle: What's the recommended package for downloading web pages?
2016-02-16T17:22:20Z pseudo_sue:  /join #rust
2016-02-16T17:22:32Z pseudo_sue: whoops. pardon me.
2016-02-16T17:22:41Z rpg: warweasle: I think drakma
2016-02-16T17:22:43Z pseudo_sue: didn't see the space character there
2016-02-16T17:23:54Z warweasle: rpg I thought that was a brower. Ok.
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2016-02-16T17:25:41Z warweasle: works.
2016-02-16T17:25:59Z PuercoPop: plertrood: there was some support for named-readtables in swank added 'recently' (6+ months).
2016-02-16T17:27:27Z plertrood: Interesting.
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2016-02-16T17:29:15Z plertrood: I should have that version… I think a may be a little out of date.
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2016-02-16T17:29:37Z plertrood: I mean, I don’t think I have that version… I may be a little out of date..
2016-02-16T17:29:41Z plertrood: Darn fingers..
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2016-02-16T17:57:53Z trinitr0n:   /win 34
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2016-02-16T18:35:35Z Winowa: hi guys
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2016-02-16T18:36:07Z Winowa: a proper a list using setq, does (abc . 3) and (3 . abc) have a difference?
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2016-02-16T18:36:51Z phoe_krk: Hmm.
2016-02-16T18:36:54Z phoe_krk: Well.
2016-02-16T18:37:07Z phoe_krk: A proper a list using setq?
2016-02-16T18:37:17Z dlowe: (abc . 3) is not a proper list
2016-02-16T18:37:25Z dlowe: it's a single cons cell
2016-02-16T18:37:32Z phoe_krk: Also (abc . 3) and (3 . abc) are both conses. They just have their contents flipped.
2016-02-16T18:37:35Z phoe_krk: Reversed.
2016-02-16T18:37:40Z dlowe: swapped?
2016-02-16T18:38:04Z Winowa: so it doenst matter becauser it can be interchanged with car and cdr?
2016-02-16T18:38:16Z Winowa: *cadr
2016-02-16T18:39:09Z phoe_krk: Winowa: uhh. It does matter, depending on the way you access your data.
2016-02-16T18:39:39Z phoe_krk: If you're writing a new function, then it doesn't really matter. You can go like "Let (car x) contain a number, (cdr x) contain a symbol" and consistently use it all along your function.
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2016-02-16T18:46:23Z edgar-rft: Winowa: I think there are several reasons why the question cannot be answered in a meaningful way:
2016-02-16T18:46:23Z edgar-rft: 1) Neither (abc . 3) nor (3 . abc) are proper lists, both are two different conses. A proper list does not contain a dot.
2016-02-16T18:46:23Z edgar-rft: 2) I cannot see from your question what SETQ has to do with it.
2016-02-16T18:46:23Z edgar-rft: Can you give a single-line example that includes the SETQ?
2016-02-16T18:46:24Z jasom: though you may find you want to use a structure or class at some point
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2016-02-16T18:48:35Z Winowa: (setq Arad
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2016-02-16T18:48:36Z Winowa:       '((140 . ("Sibiu"))
2016-02-16T18:48:36Z Winowa:         (75 . ("Zerind"))
2016-02-16T18:48:36Z Winowa:         (118 . ("Timisora"))))
2016-02-16T18:48:51Z Winowa: is this a form of alist?
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2016-02-16T18:49:11Z phoe_krk: Uhh. To be very honest...
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2016-02-16T18:49:39Z phoe_krk: (setq Arad '((140 "Sibiu") (75 "Zerind") (118 "Timisora")))
2016-02-16T18:49:41Z phoe_krk: That's what you're doing.
2016-02-16T18:49:53Z phoe_krk: Technically, it is an alist.
2016-02-16T18:50:02Z phoe_krk: With the cdr of each cell being one-element list with a string.
2016-02-16T18:50:05Z phoe_krk: But why would you want it that way?
2016-02-16T18:50:57Z jasom: this looks like an assignment for a graph search algorithm in an intro to AI class that decided that since it was AI, they should be using lisp
2016-02-16T18:51:01Z dlowe: phoe_krk: that's actually the canonical way to do alists
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2016-02-16T18:51:10Z Winowa: its an example i found so later i would call cdr and car to access its value for a later on equation?
2016-02-16T18:51:17Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: because that's the list format that ASSOC wants.
2016-02-16T18:51:18Z dlowe: Winowa: yes, that's correct.
2016-02-16T18:51:31Z CowMan: dlowe,  i got a lip - stick for ur pussy lips  bitch\
2016-02-16T18:51:39Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: !?
2016-02-16T18:51:42Z Winowa: jasom : spot on
2016-02-16T18:51:43Z dlowe: ASSOC will work just fine with proper lists.
2016-02-16T18:51:46Z phoe_krk: canonical way to do alists?
2016-02-16T18:51:59Z phoe_krk: I was always using them like '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3))
2016-02-16T18:52:00Z Winowa: is there a abetter way than this?
2016-02-16T18:52:10Z dlowe: phoe_krk: it used to be that saving the cost of a cons cell was a big deal
2016-02-16T18:52:15Z jasom: phoe_krk: it is common to do '((foo . (bar baz)) for alists in which the value is a list
2016-02-16T18:52:23Z dlowe: Winowa: no, keep going :)
2016-02-16T18:52:25Z phoe_krk: jasom: yes, I know
2016-02-16T18:52:35Z blub: dlowe: acons would make me think otherwise
2016-02-16T18:52:40Z phoe_krk: but, uh, making a whole new cons for a single value?
2016-02-16T18:52:48Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: ASSOC wants an alist, what is a list of cons cells. Your list misses the dots in the cons cells.
2016-02-16T18:53:17Z dlowe: blub: just always have a list for the value and acons will work just fine.
2016-02-16T18:53:18Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: but which is completely equivalent to what Winowa typed.
2016-02-16T18:53:33Z phoe_krk: (a . (b)) = (a b)
2016-02-16T18:53:34Z jasom: phoe_krk: the point is that (foo . (bar baz)) is more clearly an element in an alist than (foo bar baz)
2016-02-16T18:53:52Z jasom: phoe_krk: so stylistically if it's an alist (foo . (bar baz)) makes sense
2016-02-16T18:53:57Z phoe_krk: I see.
2016-02-16T18:54:12Z phoe_krk: Well. I still have no idea why you would wrap a single value in one more list.
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2016-02-16T18:54:19Z jasom: phoe_krk: I'm with you on that one
2016-02-16T18:54:25Z phoe_krk: I mean, why it isn't (140 . "Sibiu") instead.
2016-02-16T18:54:58Z phoe_krk: Much clearer than that, especially that Lisp won't prit it with the dot and go (140 Sibiu) the other way which doesn't hint for an alist at all.
2016-02-16T18:54:59Z circ-user-S6w8v: Most likely, it won't get printed out "stylistically"
2016-02-16T18:55:57Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: Winowa's alist was  (setq Arad '((140 . "Sibiu") (75 . "Zerind") (118 . "Timisora"))) while your list was  (setq Arad '((140 "Sibiu") (75 "Zerind") (118 "Timisora"))) without the dots. Your list is a nested proper list, not an alist.
2016-02-16T18:56:23Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft:
2016-02-16T18:56:24Z phoe_krk: 19:48:35 - Winowa: (setq Arad
2016-02-16T18:56:24Z phoe_krk: 19:48:35 - Winowa:       '((140 . ("Sibiu"))
2016-02-16T18:56:24Z phoe_krk: 19:48:35 - Winowa:         (75 . ("Zerind"))
2016-02-16T18:56:24Z phoe_krk: 19:48:35 - Winowa:         (118 . ("Timisora"))))
2016-02-16T18:56:38Z phoe_krk: I beg to differ.
2016-02-16T18:57:24Z edgar-rft: yes, and that's different than your list.
2016-02-16T18:57:44Z Winowa: i would need to print it out later on. One to show what is in the node expansion, changes of content to the fringe and a solution path of all routes taken. is alist sufficient?
2016-02-16T18:58:12Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft:
2016-02-16T18:58:12Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> '((140 . ("Sibiu")) (75 . ("Zerind")) (118 . ("Timisora")))
2016-02-16T18:58:12Z phoe_krk: ((140 "Sibiu") (75 "Zerind") (118 "Timisora"))
2016-02-16T18:58:20Z phoe_krk: I beg to differ again.
2016-02-16T18:58:52Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: in short, (140 . "Sibiu") is not the same as (140 "Sibiu")
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2016-02-16T18:59:33Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: in short, (140 . ("Sibiu")) is not the same as (140 . "Sibiu")
2016-02-16T18:59:42Z phoe_krk: Notice there's one more pair of parens in there.
2016-02-16T19:00:09Z phoe_krk: Winowa posted the (140 . ("Sibiu")) version, I posted the (140 "Sibiu") version. They're equivalent.
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2016-02-16T19:01:25Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: The outer list is not what I'm talking about. Imean that (cons a b) => (a. b) while (cons a (cons b nil)) => (a b). Both are two different cons structures.
2016-02-16T19:01:37Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: I totally agree with this.
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2016-02-16T19:02:21Z phoe_krk: What I'm trying to point out is, in case of an alist with only a single key and a single value, I don't see the point of having (a . (b)) in place of (a . b).
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2016-02-16T19:06:17Z edgar-rft: Ah, I understand now. But (b) is a valid alist value, too. If it's really necessary to be a list depends on the code that processes the value.
2016-02-16T19:07:45Z phoe_krk: clhs stream
2016-02-16T19:07:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_stream.htm
2016-02-16T19:07:51Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: yes, it is valid.
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2016-02-16T19:09:00Z phoe_krk: But also pointless for a single value, the case of which I detected above.
2016-02-16T19:09:32Z Winowa: 5what i have wrote and (setq Arad '((140 "Sibiu") (75 "Zerind") (118 "Timisora")))
2016-02-16T19:09:37Z Winowa: is equivalent?
2016-02-16T19:10:07Z edgar-rft: I see now the source of confusion: The REPL printer prints '((140 . ("Sibiu")) (75 . ("Zerind")) (118 . ("Timisora"))) as ((140 "Sibiu") (75 "Zerind") (118 "Timisora")), what is a known printer mess with non-proper lists.
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2016-02-16T19:14:52Z jasom: Winowa: yes it is equivalent due to how lists and cons cells work
2016-02-16T19:15:12Z jasom: (1 2 3) is the same as (1 . (2 . (3 .nil)))
2016-02-16T19:15:40Z edgar-rft: Winowa, just tested with SBCL: phoe_krk is right, both are the same alists, but the printer tries to print the alist as proper list, that's why it looks so weird.
2016-02-16T19:15:41Z jasom: Winowa: if you are familiar with linked lists, a lisp list is a linked list where the data is in car and the next pointer is in cdr
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2016-02-16T19:17:03Z phoe_krk: It's simple! (a . b), which is actually three elements, a, . and b, is actually two elements, a and b, and (a b), which is actually two elements, a and b, is actually five elements, a, ., b, . and NIL, with also an additional pair of invisible parens!
2016-02-16T19:17:05Z phoe_krk: #justlispthings
2016-02-16T19:17:21Z edgar-rft: (140 . ("Sibiu")) = (cons 140 (cons "Sibiu" nil)) = (140 "Sibiu")
2016-02-16T19:17:35Z phoe_krk: Even if I get banned from here for this line, hell, it was worth it.
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2016-02-16T19:20:29Z edgar-rft: and not to forget: DOTTED LISTS are BULLSHIT
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2016-02-16T19:22:17Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: oh, come on, they're amusing
2016-02-16T19:22:37Z phoe_krk: especially the moment you begin {mis,ab}using the |.| symbol
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2016-02-16T19:23:00Z phoe_krk: (read-from-string (format nil "~A" '(a |.| b)))
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2016-02-16T19:23:28Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: is . really a symbol? I thought it was black magic?
2016-02-16T19:23:38Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: |.| is, of course it is
2016-02-16T19:23:40Z phoe_krk: why wouldn't it be?
2016-02-16T19:23:57Z PuercoPop: edgar-rft:  (140 . "Sibiu") *is* a proper list
2016-02-16T19:24:26Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: how can it be a proper list? it doesn't terminate with a NIL
2016-02-16T19:24:52Z edgar-rft: same question here...
2016-02-16T19:24:58Z PuercoPop: sorry I meant the ("Sibiu") version
2016-02-16T19:25:16Z phoe_krk: oh, that is a proper list.
2016-02-16T19:25:22Z phoe_krk: (cons "Sibiu" nil)
2016-02-16T19:26:00Z edgar-rft: yes, that's exactly what I didn't realize after 15 years of Lisp...
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2016-02-16T19:26:39Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: uh?
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2016-02-16T19:27:27Z edgar-rft: I didn't realize that (140 . ("Sibiu")) is that same as (140 "Sibiu")
2016-02-16T19:27:27Z phoe_krk: the . in the reader is actually a reader macro in the reader's consing method so it doesn't cons a new cons, just adds the following element at the end
2016-02-16T19:27:32Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: :D
2016-02-16T19:27:37Z phoe_krk: we all learn new things
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2016-02-16T19:27:57Z phoe_krk: and I'm totally glad to say it as a Lisper with less than half a year's proper experience
2016-02-16T19:28:30Z phoe_krk: because people with days' experience point things out to me that I was just as oblivious about
2016-02-16T19:28:42Z edgar-rft: it's probably too long ago that I had to deal with dotted mess :-)
2016-02-16T19:28:58Z phoe_krk: all it takes is a person who notices a new thing and points that out and the crowd goes OHHHHHHHHHHH
2016-02-16T19:29:12Z phoe_krk: or does it by accident
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2016-02-16T19:30:11Z blub: im still not convinced whether (eq #1=2 #1#) is unspecified behaviour or not
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2016-02-16T19:31:24Z Winowa: this question might appear too simple but i'll ask anyway
2016-02-16T19:31:47Z Winowa: difference between having a defun and 5 alist in it with just declaring 5 alist
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2016-02-16T19:32:20Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: afaik . is not a reader macro, but is handled by the standard one on #\(
2016-02-16T19:32:34Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: oh well, but you know what I mean
2016-02-16T19:32:43Z phoe_krk: Winowa: give us examples
2016-02-16T19:33:12Z pavelpenev: PuercoPop: that's what I meant. I don't think . is a symbol, \. is, but it has nothing to do with dot notation
2016-02-16T19:33:31Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: |.| is a symbol.
2016-02-16T19:33:42Z pavelpenev: PuercoPop: yes, but the . in (a . b) isn't
2016-02-16T19:34:06Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: yes, in this case it is not
2016-02-16T19:34:09Z phoe_krk: it's just notation.
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2016-02-16T19:34:48Z Winowa: (defun UCS (setq Arad ( etc etc ......... ) (setq Bucharest etc etc .....))) and (setq Arad ( etc etc .......) ) (setq Bucharest (etc etc ....))
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2016-02-16T19:35:46Z Winowa: also if i declare defun UCS (setq Arad ) and defun SLD (setq Arad ) it gets overwritten because of globla bariables. Am i right?
2016-02-16T19:35:54Z phoe_krk: Winowa: correct.
2016-02-16T19:35:59Z Winowa: *global variables
2016-02-16T19:36:04Z phoe_krk: Winowa: depends on what you want to achieve, too.
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2016-02-16T19:40:24Z Winowa: if i had the alists in a defun function
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2016-02-16T19:41:39Z Winowa: how can i call them from car and cdr since its setq ("function name"). In short how does car and cdr knows its from the function
2016-02-16T19:42:17Z Winowa: an example would be defun UCS (setq Arad)
2016-02-16T19:42:48Z Winowa: in car and cdr (cdr Arad). How does it know its from UCS.
2016-02-16T19:43:23Z phoe_krk: it doesn't.
2016-02-16T19:43:46Z sweater quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-02-16T19:43:48Z phoe_krk: also setq ("function name") - what do you mean by that?
2016-02-16T19:44:40Z PuercoPop: Winowa: it would be better if you can paste a snippet (http://paste.lisp.org), btw it should (defun UCS () (setq Arad 'foo)). Also it doesn't know it is from UCS, global variables have dynamic extend
2016-02-16T19:45:01Z trinitr0n:  /win 26
2016-02-16T19:47:01Z PuercoPop: btw pavelpenev godspeed on your book, Am I correct to assume there will be a parenscript section
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2016-02-16T19:47:15Z pavelpenev: PuercoPop: most likely
2016-02-16T19:47:22Z blub: what book ?
2016-02-16T19:47:49Z pavelpenev: blub: http://fullstacklisp.com/
2016-02-16T19:48:06Z pavelpenev: blub: the core will be about clack and friends
2016-02-16T19:48:43Z pavelpenev: blub: but also stuff like 5am, roswell, even slime
2016-02-16T19:50:07Z pavelpenev: hm, I should add a link to github to that page
2016-02-16T19:50:16Z blub: looks good
2016-02-16T19:50:55Z phoe_krk: oh wow
2016-02-16T19:50:58Z phoe_krk: another modern Lisp book
2016-02-16T19:50:59Z phoe_krk: in the making
2016-02-16T19:51:00Z phoe_krk: <3
2016-02-16T19:51:58Z Twylo: 7% complete, but 100% exciting!
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2016-02-16T19:53:13Z pavelpenev: Twylo: 7% is one of those made up numbers programmers love so much
2016-02-16T19:53:16Z Twylo: :)
2016-02-16T19:53:40Z Twylo: I would buy your book. Just filled out the form, so I'll be notified when it's published.
2016-02-16T19:55:16Z pavelpenev: Twylo: that form is interesting, one gentleman claims he'll pay 10,000$ for it, another demands 20$ in order to buy it(he typed in -20$)
2016-02-16T19:55:59Z Twylo: Ha! Perhaps a section on form validation in your book would help ;)
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2016-02-16T19:56:52Z pavelpenev: Twylo: for sure forms will be handled
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2016-02-16T19:58:01Z rpg: When I open a CL file in SLIME before starting Lisp, I get a file mode specification error: not connected.  Is that expected?
2016-02-16T19:58:15Z circ-user-S6w8v: pavelpenev: very nice!
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2016-02-16T20:02:14Z pavelpenev mostly wants to learn how to do most of these things better, the best way to learn is to try to explain. 
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2016-02-16T20:06:20Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: which is why I want to record these Lisp introductory videos
2016-02-16T20:06:23Z phoe_krk: the same reason
2016-02-16T20:07:04Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: I would do a screencast, but i'm too proud of my dirty balkan accent
2016-02-16T20:07:22Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: I'm Polish, come on
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2016-02-16T20:10:28Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk: I'm sufficiently articulate, but I just hate listening to my voice.
2016-02-16T20:11:37Z phoe_krk: pavelpenev: come on anyway, maybe someone won't hate listening to it and will learn Lisp thanks to it
2016-02-16T20:12:24Z dreamaddict: one of the best things you could do, as a newb, is just to recommend the best libraries for everything (kind of like what state of the union guy has done)
2016-02-16T20:13:04Z phoe_krk: alexandria
2016-02-16T20:13:14Z dreamaddict: exactly
2016-02-16T20:13:21Z phoe_krk: there, I did it
2016-02-16T20:13:22Z phoe_krk: what now?
2016-02-16T20:13:26Z phoe_krk: (:þ)
2016-02-16T20:13:29Z dreamaddict: does alexandria convert mp3s to wav?
2016-02-16T20:14:29Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: only if the alexandria council decides to add the function, which is a risky, lengthy and bureaucratic process
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2016-02-16T20:18:23Z dreamaddict: bah, no time for bureaucracy
2016-02-16T20:18:37Z Twylo: I can say, as a native American English speaker, that "exotic" accents are often quite pleasant to listen to.
2016-02-16T20:19:09Z Fare: lisp support for bazel (well, sbcl): http://github.com/qitab/bazelisp
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2016-02-16T20:20:19Z dreamaddict: here's a fun question: with (cl-ppcre:register-group-bind (x y z) ("(\\d+)\\s+(\\d+)\\s+(\\d+)")), how can I get (x y z) to be actual ints (instead of string) before the body of the bind is evaluated?
2016-02-16T20:21:42Z dreamaddict: there's a parse integer that goes in there somewhere...I suppose at the very least I could just put a let in there that converts each value, but surely there is a fancier way that doesn't involve that?
2016-02-16T20:23:36Z H4ns: dreamaddict: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#register-groups-bind
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2016-02-16T20:24:07Z H4ns: dreamaddict: i think the documentation covers it.  what is unclear?
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2016-02-16T20:26:08Z dreamaddict: I did see that
2016-02-16T20:26:11Z dreamaddict: now I am trying:
2016-02-16T20:27:08Z dreamaddict: (cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind ((#'parse-integer l w h)) ("(\\d+)x(\\d+)x(\\d+)") (list l w h))
2016-02-16T20:27:14Z dreamaddict: and it won't compile
2016-02-16T20:27:26Z dreamaddict: the string is a form like "2x7x13"
2016-02-16T20:27:28Z H4ns: "and it won't compile"
2016-02-16T20:27:58Z H4ns: can you maybe give a precise description of the error?  paste.lisp.org is your friend, paste the reproducable code and the error message
2016-02-16T20:28:01Z dreamaddict: error during macroexpansion of CL-PPCRE:REGISTER-GROUPS-BIND
2016-02-16T20:28:23Z dreamaddict: invalid number of arguments in expression to satisfy lambda list
2016-02-16T20:28:27Z H4ns: Yes.
2016-02-16T20:28:40Z H4ns: So, where is your string argument that you want to parse?
2016-02-16T20:28:49Z H4ns: I can't see it in the code that you've pasted
2016-02-16T20:29:00Z dreamaddict: "4x8x12"
2016-02-16T20:29:14Z H4ns: you did not paste that above.
2016-02-16T20:29:16Z dreamaddict: I'd like the bind to be (l 4)(w 8)(h 12), the integers
2016-02-16T20:29:27Z dreamaddict: I haven't tried it yet because it hasn't compiled :P
2016-02-16T20:29:34Z H4ns: you said that the string argument would look like it, but the code that you've pasted does not refer to any string.
2016-02-16T20:29:51Z H4ns: please take a break.
2016-02-16T20:29:57Z H4ns: then look at the code when you're done.
2016-02-16T20:30:06Z nzambe: dreamaddict: look at the examples at the documentation page, the string should be passed as argument to the call and your example above is missing it. That's H4ns is trying to point out
2016-02-16T20:30:25Z dreamaddict: but I haven't even given an argument to the call yet
2016-02-16T20:30:27Z p_l: Shinmera: ... I envy you so much
2016-02-16T20:30:38Z H4ns: dreamaddict: that is why it does not compile.
2016-02-16T20:30:54Z dreamaddict: well it's in a defun, on my end...ok I'll paste real quick
2016-02-16T20:30:56Z H4ns: dreamaddict: it does not compile because you're not supplying the required arguments to the macro.
2016-02-16T20:31:20Z H4ns: dreamaddict: no, don't.  you need to understand that you need to pass the string argument to register-groups-bind.
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2016-02-16T20:31:45Z dreamaddict: do you mean the regular expression?
2016-02-16T20:31:47Z H4ns: dreamaddict: if you'd use a properly configured slime, you'd be shown the argument list on the repl when you enter code.
2016-02-16T20:31:58Z H4ns: dreamaddict: no, the friggin string argument that you want to parse.
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2016-02-16T20:32:26Z fchurca: hullo
2016-02-16T20:32:34Z H4ns: (cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind ((#'parse-integer l w h)) ("(\\d+)x(\\d+)x(\\d+)" "2x7x13") (list l w h)) => (2 7 13)
2016-02-16T20:32:40Z H4ns: works perfectly.
2016-02-16T20:32:55Z H4ns: you're welcome.
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2016-02-16T20:33:14Z dreamaddict: ok I saw it now
2016-02-16T20:33:20Z dreamaddict: I was missing it on the arguments list
2016-02-16T20:33:28Z dreamaddict: which does display properly, it's my eyes and brain that don't work right
2016-02-16T20:35:52Z fchurca: I've been trying to ql:update-client and ql:update-all-dists, but I keep getting HTTP error 400 when ql tries to fetch /client/quicklisp.sexp and /dist/quicklisp.txt respectively
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2016-02-16T20:36:13Z Shinmera: p_l: Huh? What? Why?
2016-02-16T20:36:25Z XachX: fchurca: proxy?
2016-02-16T20:36:37Z fchurca: if it helps, i'm behind an http proxy, and have my proxy-url.txt configured correctly
2016-02-16T20:36:38Z p_l: Shinmera: I look at your creations and weep, thinking "what I have done through my university years?" :D
2016-02-16T20:36:56Z Shinmera: p_l: I guess you studied, something I've been doing very terribly at
2016-02-16T20:37:31Z XachX: fchurca: a fresh install will fix it. Sorry about the inability to get the fixed client directly.
2016-02-16T20:37:32Z p_l: Shinmera: I think it was more "shivered from hunger&cold and thought of jumping from a bridge", but I somehow finished uni
2016-02-16T20:38:10Z fchurca: XachX: no problem. will the new client work through proxies again?
2016-02-16T20:38:38Z XachX: fchurca: it should. Bug reports welcome
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2016-02-16T20:38:44Z Shinmera: p_l: Oh dear.
2016-02-16T20:39:20Z Fare: dreamaddict, I find that optima.ppcre is a better interface to matching against constant regexes
2016-02-16T20:39:21Z p_l: but more seriously and currently, I really envy you in the best sense of the word - you're doing great stuff
2016-02-16T20:39:23Z fchurca: XachX: thanks a lot!
2016-02-16T20:39:42Z p_l: (read: I have just discovered qtools-ui, which I've been thinking of for few months now yet wrote no lines of code)
2016-02-16T20:39:45Z Shinmera: p_l: I don't really know how to respond to that-- but thanks, I suppose?
2016-02-16T20:40:04Z grublet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-02-16T20:40:09Z Fare is not sure how to feel about bazel as alternative to asdf — but alternatives are good. They suck in very different ways.
2016-02-16T20:40:10Z Shinmera: p_l: I've been slowing down considerably the past few months actually and that's caused me significant grief.
2016-02-16T20:40:17Z p_l: Shinmera: take it as honest appreciation (because that's what it is)
2016-02-16T20:40:31Z Shinmera: p_l: Alright. Then, thank you very much. I try my best.
2016-02-16T20:40:36Z p_l: Shinmera: take some time for yourself - better slow than burn out
2016-02-16T20:41:21Z pavelpenev: p_l, Shinmera: as someone who recently recovered from serious burnout, take measures early!
2016-02-16T20:41:28Z p_l: hear hear
2016-02-16T20:41:32Z Shinmera: p_l: Not doing things causes me lots of grief, so it's a tough battle, heh.
2016-02-16T20:41:40Z oleo: sup sup
2016-02-16T20:42:08Z p_l: Shinmera: I understand that kind of grief, taking time for yourself might, indeed, involve finding something worthwhile to work on in concentration
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2016-02-16T20:42:26Z Shinmera: p_l: Either way, speaking of QUI, if you find any problems with it (there's surely loads left), please let me know. I'm currently working on entirely unrelated projects and only briefly noticed a couple of issues when I tried to incorporate things into Parasol.
2016-02-16T20:42:33Z dreamaddict: yeah I burned out/nervous breakdown years ago, I still can't handle pressure too well anymore
2016-02-16T20:42:37Z p_l is currently starting to feel burn from not having truly made anything recently except propping crappy software he can't fix because customer is flapping around with goals
2016-02-16T20:43:22Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-02-16T20:45:04Z pavelpenev: p_l: sounds familiar. I managed by compartmentalizing the day job and caring about as much about quality as my superiors did. In my free time I didn't touch code other than maybe on weekends. It was tough, but now i'm a bit more free and have a lot of stuff planed.
2016-02-16T20:45:32Z p_l: pavelpenev: the thing is, I want to touch code, just want to make something
2016-02-16T20:46:07Z Shinmera: p_l: My inspiration is 90% things that piss me off and 10% things that seem like a neat little coding exercise.
2016-02-16T20:46:27Z Winowa: phoe_krk: you still around?
2016-02-16T20:46:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-02-16T20:46:35Z Winowa: need some help on http://paste.lisp.org/+6L7I
2016-02-16T20:46:43Z fchurca: XachX: I backed up my quicklisp directory, downloaded quicklisp.lisp again, loaded it in a clean sbcl, and tried to install it with the corresponding :proxy argument
2016-02-16T20:47:11Z fchurca: XachX: it correctly fetched quicklisp.tar, setup.lisp and asdf.lisp, but died again on quicklisp.txt
2016-02-16T20:47:40Z XachX: Argh. I'll have to dig more, sorry.
2016-02-16T20:47:50Z Shinmera: p_l: I hope you manage to find the energy/eagerness to find something new to hack on!
2016-02-16T20:47:58Z Shinmera goes back to his draw stream
2016-02-16T20:48:43Z Winowa: need help on an fbound error
2016-02-16T20:48:52Z pavelpenev: p_l: I couldn't hack it while burdened with too much work. my body couldn't keep up. People who manage OS projects while working full time amaze me.
2016-02-16T20:48:55Z Winowa: pasted the problem on pastelisp
2016-02-16T20:49:30Z phoe_krk: Winowa: yes?
2016-02-16T20:49:36Z fchurca: XachX: i could try copying over an up-to-date quicklisp installation over from another similar system (debian + sbcl), sans cache. should i expect any messes?
2016-02-16T20:49:56Z XachX: fchurca: that will work
2016-02-16T20:50:03Z phoe_krk: Winowa: you don't call setf like that.
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2016-02-16T20:50:59Z fchurca: arright, i'll try that workaround when i get home and turn my other box on. thanks a lot!
2016-02-16T20:51:05Z phoe_krk: Winowa: I will be honest with you: you get so, so many things in Lisp wrong. Possibly the influence of writing in C-like languages before.
2016-02-16T20:51:18Z phoe_krk: I do believe you should spend some time with either
2016-02-16T20:51:23Z phoe_krk: minion: tell Winowa about gentle
2016-02-16T20:51:23Z minion: Winowa: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2016-02-16T20:51:24Z phoe_krk: or
2016-02-16T20:51:29Z phoe_krk: minion: tell Winowa about pcl
2016-02-16T20:51:29Z minion: Winowa: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-02-16T20:51:50Z phoe_krk: They'll explain all of this much, much better than I anytime will.
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2016-02-16T20:51:56Z Fare just lost 2-3 days to not remembering to use :sb-dynamic-core
2016-02-16T20:52:01Z Winowa: phoe_krk : will look into both of them. and yes the influence on c languages made a huge impact.
2016-02-16T20:52:15Z phoe_krk: If it's a project you have to do for school or university, then you simply need more time on it.
2016-02-16T20:52:19Z Winowa: its like unlearning what i know and relearn a new dimension.
2016-02-16T20:52:29Z phoe_krk: Winowa: I know, right? I got the same thought when learning Lisp.
2016-02-16T20:52:32Z phoe_krk: basically
2016-02-16T20:52:40Z phoe_krk: take some more time understanding Lisp from the very bottom.
2016-02-16T20:53:03Z phoe_krk: Ideally, just go along Gentle Introduction page by page, initially with only REPL.
2016-02-16T20:53:10Z blub: winowa: write names like sld-input, not SLD_input
2016-02-16T20:53:15Z phoe_krk: And really, piece by piece.
2016-02-16T20:53:25Z phoe_krk: blub: that's another influence from C-like languages
2016-02-16T20:53:27Z fchurca: has anybody taken a look at Common Lisp Recipes?
2016-02-16T20:53:30Z phoe_krk: they write names like that indeed.
2016-02-16T20:53:34Z PuercoPop: pavelpenev: I would reconsider 5am, its tests create require a lot of memory due to compiling the tests at run-time (each time by default). 1am, prove, fiasco are all better alternatives.
2016-02-16T20:53:40Z phoe_krk: fchurca: I haven't just yet, I'm broke as hell.
2016-02-16T20:54:01Z Winowa: phoe_krk actually i am pretty close to finishing it. 6 hours to submit the assignment.
2016-02-16T20:54:02Z pavelpenev: PuercoPop: I'll look into all of them
2016-02-16T20:54:31Z phoe_krk: Winowa: that's a thing, yes. You might finish the assignment, but you haven't grasped how Lisp works by now.
2016-02-16T20:54:39Z phoe_krk: Essentially you're trying to write Java in Lisp.
2016-02-16T20:54:46Z phoe_krk: And Lisp is a very good language but it isn't a very good Java.
2016-02-16T20:54:52Z Winowa: True very true indeed
2016-02-16T20:54:54Z phoe_krk: (which is something I've heard myself at this channel :P)
2016-02-16T20:54:56Z blub: winowa: what is sld-sibiu supposed to have when you do that assignment ? a struct literal ?
2016-02-16T20:54:59Z phoe_krk: (I just have to remember who from...)
2016-02-16T20:55:09Z phoe_krk: (was probably Jake)
2016-02-16T20:56:09Z Winowa: i tried to approach Lisp with a top down approach then an OOP style. both dont seem to work. Lisp is different totally, which i need to forget all those boundaries i have all these while and start from the bottom again
2016-02-16T20:56:34Z Winowa: In short its a rweally different perspective
2016-02-16T20:56:58Z blub: oh sorry, i see, why did put (setf (user_input ..)) on that line ? how should lisp know what variable in the struct you're assigning to
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2016-02-16T20:57:06Z fchurca: Winowa: i personally enjoyed seibel's bottom-up approach in pcl
2016-02-16T20:57:57Z dreamaddict: the part where he casually used a macro to make a generalized where command for a database
2016-02-16T20:58:03Z dreamaddict: that was impressive
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2016-02-16T20:58:55Z Winowa: blub : because the example i had on editing values in data structure is (setf (student-id s2) 222). A different example. i tried to replace 222 with the user-input to make the program more dynamic.
2016-02-16T20:59:49Z phoe_krk: Winowa: begin with simple things! :P
2016-02-16T20:59:58Z phoe_krk: Not with making something you don't know much about more dynamic.
2016-02-16T21:00:06Z phoe_krk: First you need to know what you're doing.
2016-02-16T21:00:10Z blub: was s2 defined with make-student-id ?
2016-02-16T21:00:11Z phoe_krk: Only then you can make it more dynamic.
2016-02-16T21:00:50Z fchurca: Winowa: have you tried this?  (setf (user_input AradSibiu) (read))
2016-02-16T21:00:50Z Winowa: blub: s2 is one of the object created in the given def struct example.
2016-02-16T21:01:45Z blub: yes, is the defstruct example (defstruct student-id ...) ?
2016-02-16T21:02:35Z Winowa: phoe_krk : True. But if i do it that way it will be static and requires no user input. Pretty blend.
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2016-02-16T21:02:46Z PuercoPop: Winowa: The form (user_input AradSibiu) makes no sense, what are trying to do (in words). AradSibiu is an instance of user_input. If you want to change that distance of that instance it would be (setf (user_input-distance AradSibiu) new-distance)
2016-02-16T21:02:47Z Winowa: blub: yes
2016-02-16T21:02:59Z phoe_krk: Winowa: not really! Lisp does it in another way, actually.
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2016-02-16T21:03:42Z phoe_krk: I think I see what you want to do.
2016-02-16T21:03:48Z phoe_krk: And Lisp simply does it in another way.
2016-02-16T21:04:01Z PuercoPop: Also, setf a variable that doesn't exist is not guaranteed to create that variable, use defvar/defparameter
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2016-02-16T21:04:51Z PuercoPop: and no need for SLD_Sibiu to be a global, a let would do if you want readability, otherwise just merge the read straight into the setf
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2016-02-16T21:06:06Z PuercoPop: A minor note, use - instead of _, lisp doesn't have the problem parsing it as do other languages. And it would be better to use classes instead of structures as they can be redefined.
2016-02-16T21:07:30Z phoe_krk: Or drop the OO approach in here altogether and just focus on simple lists, return values and functions.
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2016-02-16T21:10:38Z Winowa: phoe_krk : i missed the "-" syntax like PuercoPop pointed out, it now replaces the value in the def struct. But again i am 100% this is not the way Lisp should be coded. Why you keep calling def-struct 00. Object oriented? I made two functions now one with defstruct the other with alists
2016-02-16T21:10:53Z Winowa: PuercoPop: thanks will remember that.
2016-02-16T21:11:17Z phoe_krk: Defstruct is already object-oriented.
2016-02-16T21:11:19Z phoe_krk: One basic thing.
2016-02-16T21:11:27Z phoe_krk: In Lisp, you don't need to call defstruct to store data.
2016-02-16T21:11:38Z phoe_krk: You don't need to call anything to store data.
2016-02-16T21:11:47Z phoe_krk: In Lisp, code *is* data. And data *is* code.
2016-02-16T21:13:20Z phoe_krk: Let's begin with very, very simple stuff. Evaluate '(1 2 3 4 5 6) first.
2016-02-16T21:13:24Z phoe_krk: With the ' in the beginning.
2016-02-16T21:13:28Z phoe_krk: What does it evaluate to?
2016-02-16T21:13:41Z Winowa: a list
2016-02-16T21:13:48Z phoe_krk: Yes.
2016-02-16T21:13:57Z phoe_krk: ' is the fundamental operator of Lisp.
2016-02-16T21:14:01Z phoe_krk: Also called QUOTE.
2016-02-16T21:14:10Z phoe_krk: It returns whatever it's applied to.
2016-02-16T21:14:13Z PuercoPop: I still mostly use classes to store 'compound data'.
2016-02-16T21:14:36Z phoe_krk: But.
2016-02-16T21:14:46Z phoe_krk: (defparameter *my-list* '(1 2 3 4 5 6))
2016-02-16T21:14:48Z phoe_krk: Eval this now.
2016-02-16T21:15:14Z Winowa: a parameter named my list with values 123456
2016-02-16T21:15:20Z phoe_krk: Then eval: *my-list*
2016-02-16T21:15:30Z phoe_krk: Yes. You have a global variable now.
2016-02-16T21:15:33Z phoe_krk: Now:
2016-02-16T21:15:41Z phoe_krk: (car *my-list*)
2016-02-16T21:15:49Z phoe_krk: (cdr *my-list*)
2016-02-16T21:15:53Z phoe_krk: (car (cdr *my-list*))
2016-02-16T21:15:56Z phoe_krk: (cdr (cdr *my-list*))
2016-02-16T21:15:58Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: but their is using a structure to group a name and a distance, it seems a more sensible choice than using lists
2016-02-16T21:16:02Z phoe_krk: See what these two do.
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2016-02-16T21:16:31Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: we'll reach that in a moment. :p
2016-02-16T21:17:18Z pavelpenev: phoe_krk, Winowa: keep in mind, '(1 2 3 4 5 6) is a litteral, and you shouldn't modify those, if you plan on modifying it, you should instead use (list 1 2 3 4 5 6)
2016-02-16T21:17:34Z phoe_krk: When you have a list, car and cdr are the primitives you can use to reach any, *any* element of a list.
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2016-02-16T21:17:39Z Winowa: car returns the first value. which is 1, cdr will be 6.  for the third cdr is processed first then car. Wwhich will give 2. and lastly 3456
2016-02-16T21:17:44Z phoe_krk: hey.
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2016-02-16T21:17:48Z phoe_krk: cdr is not 6.
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2016-02-16T21:17:55Z Winowa: 23456
2016-02-16T21:17:57Z Winowa: sorry
2016-02-16T21:17:58Z phoe_krk: ahuh.
2016-02-16T21:18:02Z blub: i hope your alist answer still has them writing accessors and you're not recommending they use car and cdr directly..
2016-02-16T21:18:13Z fchurca: phoe_krk: The variable *ANY* is unbound.    [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE]
2016-02-16T21:18:16Z phoe_krk: blub: I'm just explaining the basics of car/cdr.
2016-02-16T21:18:23Z phoe_krk: fchurca: xD
2016-02-16T21:18:36Z Winowa: actually i was planning to use car and cdr calling the values i need
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2016-02-16T21:18:47Z phoe_krk: Winowa: soon.
2016-02-16T21:19:24Z phoe_krk: You can have lists nested in lists, that's one of the basic things.
2016-02-16T21:19:30Z phoe_krk: (setf *my-list* (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9)))
2016-02-16T21:19:37Z phoe_krk: (car *my-list*)
2016-02-16T21:19:42Z phoe_krk: (car (car *my-list*))
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2016-02-16T21:21:16Z Winowa: 1 2 3
2016-02-16T21:21:21Z Winowa: car car would give 1
2016-02-16T21:21:25Z phoe_krk: Ahuh. Precisely.
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2016-02-16T21:21:44Z phoe_krk: (setf (car *my-list*) (list "a" "b" "c"))
2016-02-16T21:21:53Z phoe_krk: *my-list*
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2016-02-16T21:22:28Z Winowa: a b c
2016-02-16T21:22:40Z Winowa: double quotes does not store as data
2016-02-16T21:22:46Z phoe_krk: Hm?
2016-02-16T21:22:51Z Winowa: but its more of a printout
2016-02-16T21:23:09Z PuercoPop: Winowa: this is how I would write it fwliw http://paste.lisp.org/+6L7I/1
2016-02-16T21:23:13Z phoe_krk: Now *my-list* should return (("a" "b" "c") (4 5 6) (7 8 9)).
2016-02-16T21:24:21Z phoe_krk: Basically, SETF is used to modify things. And (SETF (SOME-FUNCTION ...) ...) is something you can define in Lisp so it does what you want it to do. But, out of the blue, when you define a function but you don't define (SETF function), Lisp doesn't know what to do. That's why your original SETF SOMETHING didn't work.
2016-02-16T21:24:32Z phoe_krk: (SETF CAR) is defined. That's why it works.
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2016-02-16T21:25:07Z Winowa: how did a b and c get binded to 456 and 789
2016-02-16T21:25:18Z phoe_krk: Heyyy.
2016-02-16T21:25:20Z phoe_krk: Again.
2016-02-16T21:25:24Z Winowa: PuercoPop: i wont make it chaging to defclass.
2016-02-16T21:25:28Z phoe_krk: Evaluate (list "a" "b" "c")
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2016-02-16T21:25:37Z phoe_krk: It should return a list: ("a" "b" "c")
2016-02-16T21:25:44Z Winowa: yes
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2016-02-16T21:25:55Z phoe_krk: Now. Again. We had *my-list* set to (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9)).
2016-02-16T21:26:18Z Winowa: yes i had it there
2016-02-16T21:26:26Z phoe_krk: I'll make it without variables now; (car (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9))) should return (1 2 3).
2016-02-16T21:26:49Z Winowa: i get it
2016-02-16T21:26:51Z phoe_krk: So if you SETF the CAR, then you write something in the place where the (1 2 3) originally was.
2016-02-16T21:26:55Z phoe_krk: Therefore:
2016-02-16T21:27:14Z phoe_krk: (setf (car (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9)))
2016-02-16T21:27:14Z phoe_krk:       (list "a" "b" "c"))
2016-02-16T21:27:20Z Winowa: since list 1 2 3 list 4 5 6 are already declared as my-list putting in a setf replaces a b c keeping its values?
2016-02-16T21:27:25Z phoe_krk: Actually modifies the CAR of the list.
2016-02-16T21:27:36Z algae quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-02-16T21:27:39Z phoe_krk: The (1 2 3) gets forgotten, and ("a" "b" "c") replaces it.
2016-02-16T21:27:56Z phoe_krk: Actually, let's do it so you can see the change.
2016-02-16T21:28:05Z phoe_krk: (setf *my-list* (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9)))
2016-02-16T21:28:11Z phoe_krk: *my-list*
2016-02-16T21:28:22Z phoe_krk: (setf (car *my-list) (list "a" "b" "c"))
2016-02-16T21:28:24Z phoe_krk: *my-list*
2016-02-16T21:28:40Z phoe_krk: whoops, my bad on the third line, I forgot an earmuff. *my-list* instead of *my-list
2016-02-16T21:28:43Z phoe_krk: But going on.
2016-02-16T21:28:54Z phoe_krk: (setf (car *my-list*) :BANANA)
2016-02-16T21:28:58Z phoe_krk: *my-list*
2016-02-16T21:29:19Z phoe_krk: (setf (car *my-list*) (list 1 2 3 2 1 2 3 2 1))
2016-02-16T21:29:21Z phoe_krk: *my-list*
2016-02-16T21:29:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-02-16T21:29:26Z phoe_krk: See what is going on here?
2016-02-16T21:30:01Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T21:30:15Z Winowa: setf overwrites mylist
2016-02-16T21:30:19Z phoe_krk: A part of mylist.
2016-02-16T21:30:25Z phoe_krk: The CAR of mylist, to be exact.
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2016-02-16T21:31:00Z Winowa: ok
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2016-02-16T21:31:28Z phoe_krk: defstruct defines some things for you, so you don't really need to worry about defining the proper (setf something) and so on.
2016-02-16T21:32:17Z Winowa: such as ability to declare default values
2016-02-16T21:32:22Z Winowa: are you referring to that?
2016-02-16T21:32:43Z phoe_krk: So you know how to write working code that uses defstruct as your default data value.
2016-02-16T21:32:52Z phoe_krk: data unit*
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2016-02-16T21:32:55Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T21:32:57Z phoe_krk: :p
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2016-02-16T21:33:10Z phoe_krk: Anyway.
2016-02-16T21:33:27Z phoe_krk: You have some data that you want stored, right?
2016-02-16T21:33:50Z Winowa: yes. i have them stored one part in defstruct and the other in list
2016-02-16T21:33:57Z Winowa: so my equation looks like this]
2016-02-16T21:34:08Z Winowa: CG-USER(63): (+ (UCS-distance AS) (car (car Arad)))
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2016-02-16T21:34:28Z Winowa: UCS-distance is the defstruct. car car is the list
2016-02-16T21:34:38Z phoe_krk: Does it work?
2016-02-16T21:34:41Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T21:34:46Z phoe_krk: Okay.
2016-02-16T21:34:55Z Winowa: but i am pretty sure Lisp is not meant to be coded this way
2016-02-16T21:35:04Z phoe_krk: It's not, but it takes some time to get used to writing it. :p
2016-02-16T21:35:08Z phoe_krk: And you're already making some progress.
2016-02-16T21:35:26Z Winowa: just putting two and three together not knowing what the twos are
2016-02-16T21:35:36Z Winowa: thanks the the channel here of course
2016-02-16T21:35:40Z Winowa: and you xD
2016-02-16T21:35:42Z phoe_krk: We'll work with this.
2016-02-16T21:35:43Z phoe_krk: Anyway.
2016-02-16T21:35:52Z phoe_krk: You want the user to be able to input something.
2016-02-16T21:35:55Z phoe_krk: What will it be?
2016-02-16T21:36:08Z phoe_krk: The magical two letters you assigned as the structs' names?
2016-02-16T21:36:41Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T21:37:08Z Winowa: for now lets say the UCS-distance AS, BS ,CS and many more
2016-02-16T21:37:28Z Winowa: that was why i had the passing user input into data struct question earlier
2016-02-16T21:38:01Z phoe_krk: So.
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2016-02-16T21:38:10Z phoe_krk: You want to refer to each struct by its name, right?
2016-02-16T21:38:15Z phoe_krk: Its symbol, we say in Lisp?
2016-02-16T21:38:40Z Winowa: Object name, is that right?
2016-02-16T21:38:45Z phoe_krk: Symbol.
2016-02-16T21:38:52Z phoe_krk: That's how they're called.
2016-02-16T21:38:57Z Winowa: haha okay
2016-02-16T21:39:03Z phoe_krk: This is completely not what you should be doing and there are many very good reasons for why it shouldn't be done. But we'll do it anyway because, hell, that's one way to reach that data.
2016-02-16T21:39:31Z phoe_krk: Warning: this is going to be very, very bad Lisp and we're only doing it because I'm trying to follow your train of thoughts as directly as possible.
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2016-02-16T21:39:43Z phoe_krk: Later on, you'll learn how to write better Lisp. (I hope you have the patience. :p)
2016-02-16T21:39:45Z Winowa: yes i am aware.
2016-02-16T21:39:58Z phoe_krk: Let's say someone types "AS".
2016-02-16T21:40:05Z Winowa: no longer in Common Lisp. It's Bad Lisp
2016-02-16T21:40:07Z phoe_krk: By means of (read-line) perhaps.
2016-02-16T21:40:08Z phoe_krk: xD
2016-02-16T21:40:16Z phoe_krk: But. You get a string, "AS".
2016-02-16T21:40:36Z phoe_krk: Did you define a structure called AS?
2016-02-16T21:40:41Z Winowa: nope not going to be that complex
2016-02-16T21:40:48Z phoe_krk: Oh, not going to be that complex?
2016-02-16T21:40:55Z phoe_krk: How do you get user input then?
2016-02-16T21:41:17Z Winowa: i am just asking for the value input from user. There is about 12 distances
2016-02-16T21:41:27Z Winowa: so everytime they restart the function 12 inputs
2016-02-16T21:41:36Z phoe_krk: Oh, wait, I might actually not know what you're trying to achieve.
2016-02-16T21:41:38Z Winowa: not using for loops too
2016-02-16T21:41:42Z phoe_krk: You're asking for a number?
2016-02-16T21:41:45Z Winowa: yes
2016-02-16T21:41:54Z phoe_krk: What do you want to do with that number?
2016-02-16T21:41:55Z Winowa: the AS-distance
2016-02-16T21:42:17Z phoe_krk: Show me your code again, I'm trying to understand what you're trying to do.
2016-02-16T21:42:32Z Winowa: get that distance (integer value) then add with the data store in list. To get a shortest path.
2016-02-16T21:42:44Z phoe_krk: Add with the data store in list...
2016-02-16T21:42:48Z phoe_krk: A shortest path to where?
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2016-02-16T21:43:22Z Winowa: to Bucharest. I will repaste in lisp paste the full version
2016-02-16T21:44:35Z Twylo: I'm still very much a lisp newbie, so I appreciate these kinds of discussions. They help me focus where I want to focus my study.
2016-02-16T21:44:45Z phoe_krk: Twylo: glad to provide you with data to munch upon
2016-02-16T21:44:53Z Twylo: minus the double use of 'focus'!
2016-02-16T21:45:19Z phoe_krk: Winowa: But, wait wait. All you're inputing is a number. How is that enough data to tell you where you want to calculate your distance *from*?
2016-02-16T21:45:19Z Twylo: It's one thing to know the language -- which is easy to learn in a day or two. It's entirely another thing to understand the culture and best practices.
2016-02-16T21:45:34Z Twylo: And wealth of macros and functions provided by CL
2016-02-16T21:46:19Z phoe_krk: Twylo: not actually a whole wealth, people nowadays complain that CL doesn't include batteries.
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2016-02-16T21:46:50Z phoe_krk: Even CL + Alexandria is tiny compared to other languages' standard libs.
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2016-02-16T21:47:09Z fchurca: for batteries, install quicklisp and browse quickdocs
2016-02-16T21:47:10Z Twylo: phoe_krk: Oh, I've already encountered one or two places where I was missing some functionality. For example, built-in ability to split a string into tokens would be nice. But, I was easily able to find a cl-utilities function to do that for me.
2016-02-16T21:47:12Z blub: depends what you want to do
2016-02-16T21:47:29Z phoe_krk: fchurca: exactly.
2016-02-16T21:47:44Z Twylo: And yeah, that's what I use, quicklisp + sbcl
2016-02-16T21:47:58Z fchurca: and vim + slimv, obviously
2016-02-16T21:48:00Z Twylo: + slime + emacs
2016-02-16T21:48:12Z Twylo: Oh no, I've started an emacs vs. vim holy war, everybody duck!
2016-02-16T21:48:19Z phoe_krk: spacemacs
2016-02-16T21:48:20Z fchurca quacks
2016-02-16T21:48:25Z phoe_krk: the war is over
2016-02-16T21:48:30Z jasom: evil-mode
2016-02-16T21:48:31Z fchurca: (see? i ducked)
2016-02-16T21:48:34Z Winowa:  http://paste.lisp.org/+6L7K.
2016-02-16T21:48:43Z Winowa:  http://paste.lisp.org/+6L7K
2016-02-16T21:48:46Z phoe_krk: SPACEMACS: finally Emacs, an operating system, with a good editor.
2016-02-16T21:48:50Z phoe_krk goes back to Winowa
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2016-02-16T21:49:38Z phoe_krk: oh hell.
2016-02-16T21:49:42Z Winowa: phoe_krk i think it doesnt because i will lisp where and what to calculate.
2016-02-16T21:49:51Z phoe_krk: That's going to be more complicatedd than I thought.
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2016-02-16T21:50:03Z phoe_krk: And I doubt I have the awakeness to guide you through this.
2016-02-16T21:50:15Z Winowa: give me like half an hour i'll type everything properly and get back here
2016-02-16T21:50:23Z Winowa: its bits and pieces now
2016-02-16T21:50:44Z phoe_krk: Actually, I'm afraid, I don't have half an hour.
2016-02-16T21:50:48Z phoe_krk: I have to run off to sleep. :p
2016-02-16T21:50:50Z Winowa: it's not really an AI program. Its a pretty dumb piece of code what i am doing and i am aware
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2016-02-16T21:51:10Z MrTrump: uh
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2016-02-16T21:51:34Z jasom: Winowa: What you probably want is a single table with all of the distances
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2016-02-16T21:52:01Z phoe_krk: jasom: I'd be glad if you could pick the helper hat
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2016-02-16T21:52:10Z phoe_krk: I have to run off to sleep right now because exams tomorrow.
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2016-02-16T21:52:26Z phoe_krk: or, just, throw the hat all around the channel
2016-02-16T21:52:34Z jasom: right
2016-02-16T21:52:39Z phoe_krk: anyway night guys :p
2016-02-16T21:52:46Z phoe_krk: Winowa: to sum things up
2016-02-16T21:52:58Z Winowa: phoe_krk: thanks you helped a lot
2016-02-16T21:53:02Z fchurca: i gotta go too
2016-02-16T21:53:06Z phoe_krk: you might actually want to make a data structure known as alist, and put everything there.
2016-02-16T21:53:29Z phoe_krk: the algorithm implementation is going to be *hell* if you don't know Lisp at all, and you seemingly don't know a great part of its basics.
2016-02-16T21:53:30Z Winowa: what exams you have tomorrow?
2016-02-16T21:53:35Z phoe_krk: Anal.
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2016-02-16T21:53:41Z phoe_krk: Also called mathematical analysis.
2016-02-16T21:53:42Z Winowa: seems legit.
2016-02-16T21:53:46Z phoe_krk: Also called calculus.
2016-02-16T21:53:55Z phoe_krk: Which is called anal because it feels roughly the same.
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2016-02-16T21:54:28Z Winowa: lets not go there.
2016-02-16T21:54:39Z phoe_krk: yes.
2016-02-16T21:54:48Z phoe_krk: anyway, night
2016-02-16T21:54:56Z Winowa: i will rewrite everything and be back here in like hlaf an hour
2016-02-16T21:55:03Z phoe_krk: I have faith in you guys, don't let people go without help!
2016-02-16T21:55:03Z phoe_krk: night
2016-02-16T21:55:04Z Winowa: phoe_krk : nites and thanks again
2016-02-16T21:55:08Z jasom: Winowa: if I'm here I'll take a look
2016-02-16T21:55:19Z Winowa: jasom : ok thanks
2016-02-16T21:55:19Z phoe_krk: jasom: gonna be late but I'll take a look tomorrow
2016-02-16T21:55:36Z phoe_krk: after all it's a small pie whether you do this assignment
2016-02-16T21:55:36Z Winowa: submission of this in 4 hours
2016-02-16T21:55:43Z phoe_krk: and a big pie whether you learn anything from it
2016-02-16T21:55:49Z phoe_krk: and I'm here for the big pies
2016-02-16T21:55:55Z phoe_krk: gnight~
2016-02-16T21:55:57Z Winowa: its actaully 20% and yes learning it will be the bigger picture
2016-02-16T21:55:59Z Winowa: i agree.
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2016-02-16T22:06:24Z emaczen: How can I run javascript eval at compile-time with parenscript?
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2016-02-16T22:12:17Z PuercoPop: Any idea why sbcl (and ccl) have trouble retrieve the readers and writes of a slot (code works fine on ecl) http://paste.lisp.org/+6L7L
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2016-02-16T22:16:03Z ferada: PuercoPop: closer-mop:class-direct-slots works but you'd have to look up why
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2016-02-16T22:18:36Z PuercoPop: ferada: actually I should be using class-direct-slots, ensure-class only takes direct-slots, thanks!
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2016-02-16T22:23:09Z PuercoPop: implementing PoC of the meta-helix is proving more work than a 15 min hack.
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2016-02-16T22:30:21Z jasom: emaczen: there is a cl implementation of javascript
2016-02-16T22:31:02Z jasom: emaczen: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
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2016-02-17T11:36:56Z pareidolia: I just had a particularly perverted idea
2016-02-17T11:37:22Z pareidolia: I wonder how feasible it is to tack ECL on top of Chromium to do UI scripting and introspection
2016-02-17T11:37:32Z pareidolia: Oh, the thought of running Swank on that setup
2016-02-17T11:37:38Z Walex2: that 'with-accessors' is sort of taken straight from ancient POP-2 :-)
2016-02-17T11:38:51Z Walex2: pareidolia: in a better universe Guile or another "small lisp/scheme" would be used for that kind of thing everywhere.
2016-02-17T11:39:06Z pareidolia: Genera :)
2016-02-17T11:39:24Z Walex2: pareidolia: that's going a bit too far...
2016-02-17T11:39:34Z pareidolia: A man can dream no?
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2016-02-17T11:40:20Z Walex2: but for example there was and still is a nice X11 Window manager that was Lisp based GWM, and then there are a few other tools etc.
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2016-02-17T11:42:02Z pareidolia: Have you seen the Genera videos?
2016-02-17T11:42:06Z Walex2: pareidolia: as to things like Genera I must confess that I am not totally persuaded, because the UNIX story is that "generic" execution environments tend to be more flexible than "enclosed workspace" ones like APL or Lisp
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2016-02-17T11:42:25Z pareidolia: Elaborate enclosed?
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2016-02-17T11:43:00Z splittist: Walex2: which is why unices dominate the consumer and business space where interaction with human beings is at a premium.
2016-02-17T11:43:04Z Walex2: pareidolia: I am old and I used Genera a bit decades ago, but also other wonderful things like the RSRE Flex, or the HP RCG, or Interlisp-D
2016-02-17T11:43:31Z pareidolia: Walex2: Whoa! You should do some oral history thing on that
2016-02-17T11:45:14Z Walex2: pareidolia: workspace-based systems are those where you "login" into a workspace and load/save stuff into that workspace. It is amazingly convenient *within* the workspace, but interacting with stuff outside it is a bit harder.
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2016-02-17T11:45:33Z pareidolia: Workspace like image (makes me think of Smalltalk)
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2016-02-17T11:46:08Z Walex2: workspaces systems like Smalltalk-xx etc. indeedd.
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2016-02-17T11:46:47Z pareidolia: Humm it takes a network and suitable protocols no?
2016-02-17T11:48:06Z Walex2: pareidolia: there be dragons :-). But it is more about IO and inter-process and inter-user communications on the same host. "workspace" systems tend to be single-language and single-user. A bit like mobile phones.
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2016-02-17T11:48:52Z Walex2: Uhmmm, Genera or Interlisp-D on a mobile phone... A current midrange mobile phone is probably 100-1000 times faster than a LM or a Dorado.
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2016-02-17T11:49:39Z pareidolia: On the other side of the spectrum we have Plan 9 I suppose
2016-02-17T11:49:44Z splittist: All you need is an inflatable bluetooth Space Cadet keyboard and you're good to go...
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2016-02-17T12:46:50Z dreamaddict: is there a "blittier" operation for setting multiple elements of a multidimensional array...or is looping with aref good enough?
2016-02-17T12:46:50Z minion: dreamaddict, memo from jasom: ironclad has pretty much every hash function you might want
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2016-02-17T12:47:15Z dreamaddict: (there's no real computational need, I just like to try and be parsimonious with cycles)
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2016-02-17T13:27:46Z moore33: minion: help
2016-02-17T13:27:46Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2016-02-17T13:30:24Z pareidolia: Is minion the only bot here?
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2016-02-17T13:33:38Z ggole: clhs false
2016-02-17T13:33:38Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for false.
2016-02-17T13:34:12Z moore33: ggole: Nice try :)
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2016-02-17T13:34:32Z ggole: Well, I didn't think asking for nil would be clear enough.
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2016-02-17T13:35:28Z moore33: minion: memo for beach: I did my personal kaiban for the day: got my Emacs lisp customization of the compile command to work for real, saving me several keystrokes per compile.
2016-02-17T13:35:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-02-17T13:43:11Z jackdaniel: hrm, RFC http://paste.lisp.org/display/307502 (small process library for an old pre-bordeaux-threads projects)
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2016-02-17T13:58:11Z moore33: jackdaniel: The whole run-reasons thing is very unsuited to SMP.
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2016-02-17T13:59:31Z jackdaniel: moore33: I know, but it's what the old interfaces require (most notably acl-compat)
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2016-02-17T13:59:57Z jackdaniel: it's just a translation of these demands into bordeaux-threads
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2016-02-17T14:00:44Z moore33: jackdaniel: My point is that they were better behaved on single core architectures and are now probably just a source of bugs.
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2016-02-17T14:01:19Z jackdaniel: right
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2016-02-17T14:05:32Z jackdaniel: I'm working now on replacing as much as possible implementation-specific hacks in acl-compat with the compatibility libraries
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2016-02-17T16:11:51Z ralt: mordocai: ping
2016-02-17T16:12:13Z ralt: are you mordocai058 on reddit?
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2016-02-17T16:15:32Z mordocai: ralt: Yeah
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2016-02-17T16:23:06Z jasom: mordocai: oh, that reminds me, old at this point, but checkout the lensman series for an SF book similar to WoT,SoT,SoIaF
2016-02-17T16:23:26Z jasom: mordocai: triplanetary by e.e. doc smith is the first one
2016-02-17T16:24:58Z mordocai: jasom: Ooh nice, thanks. I'll add it to my list.
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2016-02-17T16:44:38Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-17T16:44:38Z minion: beach, memo from moore33: I did my personal kaiban for the day: got my Emacs lisp customization of the compile command to work for real, saving me several keystrokes per compile.
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2016-02-17T16:51:59Z beach: moore33: Did you mean personal "kaizen"?
2016-02-17T16:52:12Z moore33: beach: I guess so :)
2016-02-17T16:52:23Z beach: Congratulations!
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2016-02-17T16:54:26Z moore33: beach: It's true that there's a certain inertia in figuring out why a function I wrote a while ago never seemed to work; then I thought about all the time I spent typing 5 or 6 characters many times a day...
2016-02-17T16:55:38Z beach: Yeah, it adds up.
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2016-02-17T16:56:21Z moore33: Now I need to get some slime customizations going to avoid typing asdf:load-system so much...
2016-02-17T16:56:44Z beach: M-p usually works. :)
2016-02-17T16:57:08Z moore33: Several times... isn't that what personal kaizen is all about?
2016-02-17T16:57:13Z beach: Or M-r asdf<RET> in the worst case.
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2016-02-17T16:57:56Z beach: It's when you do something several times a day that it adds up.
2016-02-17T16:58:10Z moore33: Yes, that's the point.
2016-02-17T16:58:31Z moore33: You might wonder why I type asdf:load-system several times a day...
2016-02-17T16:58:32Z beach: A minute a day becomes 200 or so per year.  That's 3 hours.
2016-02-17T16:58:54Z beach: Yes, I do.  I usually get away with the M-r thing.
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2016-02-17T17:00:14Z moore33: beach: I move around between several machines... and didn't know about M-r:P
2016-02-17T17:00:24Z beach: Ouch!
2016-02-17T17:00:32Z jdz: slime has (maybe in a contrib) an asdf module, so ,load-system (or just ,l<TAB>) works for me
2016-02-17T17:00:39Z beach: The good news is that you can now start a quest to save huge amounts of time.
2016-02-17T17:01:02Z moore33: jdz: Yeah, that's the one.
2016-02-17T17:01:13Z jdz: system names also have completions
2016-02-17T17:01:33Z jdz: the fancy ones at that
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2016-02-17T17:01:47Z jdz: fancy completions i mean
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2016-02-17T17:30:23Z malice: Hey guys! I'm going over On Lisp. Right now I'm going over "when-bind*" macro. Here's comparison of macro I came up by myself vs On Lisp's one: http://ix.io/orw
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2016-02-17T17:30:40Z malice: I see that they work different, but I wouldn't say that my is worse. Is everything okay with it?
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2016-02-17T17:30:46Z malice: I'm still kind of new in macro writing.
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2016-02-17T17:32:00Z moore33: malice: I think one of the points of the on-lisp macro is to not evaluate bind clauses after the first one that is false.
2016-02-17T17:32:05Z moore33: Your macro doesn't do that :)
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2016-02-17T17:32:31Z kenanb: wow, the fact that defstruct can create structures represented as lists or vectors is golden
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2016-02-17T17:34:15Z malice: moore33: I'm aware of that - that's why I wrote that they're different.
2016-02-17T17:34:32Z malice: And I agree that's a useful feature.
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2016-02-17T17:34:59Z jdz: malice: in your case you don't even need a macro
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2016-02-17T17:35:58Z moore33: malice: Then I would say that yours is not ok in the sense that it doesn't met the "spec." In terms of its general form, sure, whatever.
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2016-02-17T17:36:42Z moore33: malice: *But*, a common error in macro writing is to evaluate more than the user expects, or more times than the user expects.
2016-02-17T17:36:49Z beach: malice: I would have used WHEN rather than IF and PROGN.
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2016-02-17T17:37:27Z beach: malice: Especially since your indentation of the `else' form is wrong.
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2016-02-17T17:38:08Z moore33: The on-lisp version is in alexandria, I think.
2016-02-17T17:38:34Z malice: Yeah. Thanks for the opinions. My other question is how would I write "when-bind". The book defines "when-bind" for single clause only, where I would like it to work like when-bind*, just without the possibility of bindings seeing each other.
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2016-02-17T17:38:43Z PuercoPop: beach: it is not wrong, it is different, I've been told is how Lispworks indents the code (When I first saw it I assumed it was emacs indenting as elisp)
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2016-02-17T17:39:15Z malice: I did analogous when-bind to the version from my when-bind*, but it has the same flaw
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2016-02-17T17:39:21Z malice: Evaluating everything before testing
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2016-02-17T17:39:59Z moore33: PuercoPop: It's wrong. Emacs lisp indents it that way because if is defined differently in elisp (which you probably know).
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2016-02-17T17:41:02Z moore33: malice: when-bind is more involved. You would need to make temporary variables with gensym for all the binding clauses.
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2016-02-17T17:41:27Z moore33: malice: That is, in the short-circuit version.
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2016-02-17T17:42:03Z malice: moore33: Yes, I meant short-circuit version.
2016-02-17T17:42:08Z moore33: malice: Then rebind everything in the termination clause.
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2016-02-17T17:42:26Z PuercoPop: moore33: http://stackoverflow.com/a/32410861/357198 I am aware of the implicit progn in elisp, which is the rationale that makes sense to me to indent more the then-form than the else-form. But if it is good enough for an old time lisper like Rainer Jowsig i don't think how it can be called wrong
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2016-02-17T17:42:57Z moore33: PuercoPop: Old-time lispers sometimes do stupid shit.
2016-02-17T17:43:03Z beach: It is definitely wrong.
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2016-02-17T17:45:34Z malice: Umm, how is my indentation wrong btw? Should else be less indented?
2016-02-17T17:46:04Z malice: Oh wait, I see.
2016-02-17T17:46:13Z PuercoPop: malice: it should be aligned with the (progn ..) form
2016-02-17T17:46:20Z moore33: malice: Should be the same as the then form.
2016-02-17T17:46:21Z PuercoPop: (on the same level of indentation)
2016-02-17T17:46:47Z malice: Interesting. Normally SLIME does formatting for me, but when I pasted the code into *scratch*, it assumed ELisp style and formatted it *wrong* :)
2016-02-17T17:46:58Z moore33: There ya go.
2016-02-17T17:47:06Z PuercoPop: to be clear, I'm not advocating for that style to become the norm. But calling the default style of indentation of Lispworks wrong is disingenuous at best.
2016-02-17T17:47:33Z PuercoPop: malice: there is slime-scratch
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2016-02-17T17:48:24Z dwchandler: which is what you do if you get the skin disease ecmascript
2016-02-17T17:50:41Z moore33: PuercoPop: Lisp Machine Lisp's "if" behaved like Emacs'; I don't know if Zetalisp etc. did too. I don't blame Joswig for picking up the indentation habit from an earlier time, but it just doesn't serve anything in Common Lisp. The fact that one implementation's editor indents things in a certain way doesn't carry much weight with me.
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2016-02-17T17:53:32Z malice: PuercoPop: Thanks for slime-scratch.
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2016-02-17T17:57:10Z PuercoPop: moore33: I share your conclusion, and don't want to continue arguing about styles, maybe I was being nit-picky
2016-02-17T17:57:44Z PuercoPop: malice: glad it was of use, it took me a while to find about it
2016-02-17T17:58:49Z PuercoPop: should I be using make-method-lambda or add-method? (I'm trying to add a slot-value-using-class method
2016-02-17T17:58:50Z kenanb: PuercoPop: IMHO while it makes perfect sense in ELisp version of if, it is totally wrong in CL
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2016-02-17T18:05:39Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks that python might have a point when it makes indentation errors syntax errors.
2016-02-17T18:07:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and Haskell, for that matter)
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2016-02-17T18:10:27Z mordocai: Meh, I would be fine with a semi-official linter that complained about bad indentation (think jshint or rubocop) but I don't like indentation being syntax errors myself.
2016-02-17T18:10:43Z mordocai: In fact, I avoid python and haskell largely due to that
2016-02-17T18:10:54Z dlowe: I'd be cool with a lispfmt that simply put the code in a standard form.
2016-02-17T18:11:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, it definitely broke my habit of left-aligning code :)
2016-02-17T18:11:39Z mordocai: dlowe: i'd be fine with that as well
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2016-02-17T18:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I was like 10 at the time and didn't really know how to type, and didn't like the extra effort of adding all the "useless" spaces.
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2016-02-17T18:15:06Z fchurca: hullo
2016-02-17T18:15:14Z dlowe: hi, fchurca
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2016-02-17T18:16:35Z hgvbq: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-02-17T18:18:45Z fchurca: i had been getting http 400 errors while trying to ql:update-all-dists and ql:update-client. i have performed a quicklisp transplant from an up-to-date box, but i still have the same errors
2016-02-17T18:20:43Z fchurca: Xach suggested i create a bug report if problems continued. should i create an issue on the github repo for quicklisp-client for that?
2016-02-17T18:21:56Z fchurca: well actually XachX, who i assume is Xach too, unless he's an evil clone
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2016-02-17T18:24:33Z dlowe: Xach with a goatee.
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2016-02-17T18:28:53Z warweasle: dlowe: *I* have the goatee. *I'm* the supervillian.
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2016-02-17T18:29:32Z warweasle: If XachX is so evil, why doesn't he eat this kitten! Bwaaa hahahahaa!
2016-02-17T18:31:23Z fchurca: maybe so as not to rouse suspicion
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2016-02-17T18:38:26Z warweasle: fchurca: Well, he's not more evil than me. I'm like Iron man, Deadpool and the Little Lebowski rolled into one.
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2016-02-17T18:40:33Z fchurca: <discussion on whether iron man and deadpool are evil or just grey goes here>
2016-02-17T18:41:07Z fchurca: jokes aside
2016-02-17T18:41:13Z fchurca: Xach: ping?
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2016-02-17T18:44:48Z fchurca: minion: tell me about recipes
2016-02-17T18:44:48Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``recipes''.
2016-02-17T18:45:16Z fchurca: minion: tell me about cl-recipes
2016-02-17T18:45:17Z minion: cl-recipes: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-recipes
2016-02-17T18:45:40Z fchurca: minion: tell me about common lisp recipes
2016-02-17T18:45:40Z minion: common lisp recipes: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/common%20lisp%20recipes
2016-02-17T18:46:03Z fchurca: minion: tell me about Common Lisp Recipes
2016-02-17T18:46:03Z minion: Common Lisp Recipes: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20Recipes
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2016-02-17T18:46:24Z Opodeldoc: 1 cup flour, 1 cup sugar, 1/2 cup cocoa, 1/2 stick butter, 1/2 cup milk, mix together and pour into greased pan, bake @350 for ~25mins
2016-02-17T18:46:51Z DeadTrickster: 350 C F or K?
2016-02-17T18:47:04Z Opodeldoc: DeadTrickster: yes
2016-02-17T18:47:08Z DeadTrickster: good
2016-02-17T18:47:36Z fchurca: Opodeldoc: actually i was wondering whether minion knew about common lisp recipes, but that does sound interesting
2016-02-17T18:48:11Z Opodeldoc: fchurca: Some chopped walnuts don't hurt either.
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2016-02-17T18:55:37Z kenanb: you wrote a convenience function that does (setf (class-slot *instance*) value), how would you name that convenience function
2016-02-17T18:55:55Z kenanb: set-class-slot? store-class-slot?
2016-02-17T18:55:58Z kenanb: etc
2016-02-17T18:56:21Z kenanb: by set-class-slot I mean set-class-name-slot-name
2016-02-17T18:57:10Z kenanb: and by (class-slot *instance*) I mean (class-slot-accessor-name *instance*)
2016-02-17T18:57:20Z Shinmera: Why not just specify an additional :writer?
2016-02-17T18:57:21Z kenanb: pardon me for ultra ambiguous description
2016-02-17T18:57:58Z Shinmera: As in, (defclass foo () ((bar :writer set-bar)))
2016-02-17T18:58:31Z kenanb: because that specific case is actually for a struct
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2016-02-17T18:59:30Z kenanb: Shinmera: though I like the answer, the question is more towards naming convention, still, thank you
2016-02-17T18:59:39Z Bike: you managed to find quite a way to confuse what you're asking
2016-02-17T19:00:47Z kenanb: Bike: indeed, I didn't want to concentrate on struct because that can potentially end up with the suggestion "use class", I was asking for a good name to "set-"
2016-02-17T19:01:05Z Shinmera: Use a class.
2016-02-17T19:01:10Z Shinmera: :^)
2016-02-17T19:01:11Z kenanb: Shinmera: :)
2016-02-17T19:01:16Z Bike: if your struct is "foo" and the slot is "bar" i'd default to "set-foo-bar", but it doesn't really matter
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2016-02-17T19:01:55Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, I know, I still wanted to know if there is a generally accepted name  for that pattern
2016-02-17T19:02:09Z Shinmera: If there's only one struct, then I'd leave the struct name out of it.
2016-02-17T19:02:17Z Bike: what "pattern"? having a function that sets something?
2016-02-17T19:02:18Z Shinmera: But if there's multiple structs with the same slot, then I'd include it.
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2016-02-17T19:02:22Z kenanb: just to make sure I don't go full retard with the api
2016-02-17T19:03:07Z kenanb: Bike: yes, more precisely, having a function that just sets something
2016-02-17T19:03:19Z Bike: usually it'd just be a setf function
2016-02-17T19:03:43Z Bike: defstruct unfortunately does not mandate that its writers are functions. defclass does
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2016-02-17T19:04:35Z kenanb: Bike: weird, does that have an effect on the user side?
2016-02-17T19:04:49Z Bike: yes, it means that there aren't necessarily writer functions
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2016-02-17T19:05:17Z Bike: like, if you have (defstruct foo bar) you can do (setf (foo-bar some-struct) whatever), but you can't necessarily do (funcall #'(setf foo-bar) whatever some-struct)
2016-02-17T19:05:28Z kenanb: Bike: I am guessing I am safe using (setf (struct-name-slot-name *instance*) t) unless I use read-only for the slot
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2016-02-17T19:05:39Z kenanb: Bike: am I wrong with that assumption?
2016-02-17T19:05:53Z kenanb: Bike: aah, I see.
2016-02-17T19:06:01Z Bike: that's fine, sure
2016-02-17T19:06:22Z kenanb: Bike: thank you for the explaination. I had no idea.
2016-02-17T19:06:42Z Bike: you can use the :conc-name option to defstruct to change the name, by the way
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2016-02-17T19:11:37Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, tho I am so far happy with the default accessor names. thank you
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2016-02-17T19:17:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Aren't writers generic functions?
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2016-02-17T19:17:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why not just use the slot name and let method dispatch take care of it?
2016-02-17T19:17:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or something like set-slot?
2016-02-17T19:18:25Z Bike: class writers are generic functions. kenanb is using, as previously mentioned, structs.
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2016-02-17T19:26:08Z jasom: I personally use setf, but if I had to I would use foo-set-bar since I like to prefix all operations on type foo with foo-
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2016-02-17T20:03:51Z kenanb: jasom: thanks, I actually like that approach
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2016-02-17T21:17:49Z pareidolia: I'm puzzled by the TIOBE index
2016-02-17T21:18:07Z pareidolia: It says that "Lisp" is ranked 26, and "Scheme" 27
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2016-02-17T21:18:44Z pareidolia: So I supposed it just throws all non-Scheme lisps in with each other, but no
2016-02-17T21:18:58Z pareidolia: Clojure and Common Lisp are in 51-100
2016-02-17T21:19:11Z pareidolia: Not sure what "Lisp" should mean then
2016-02-17T21:20:14Z PuercoPop: pareidolia: isn't TIOBE built by looking at search terms?
2016-02-17T21:20:34Z pareidolia: Not sure
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2016-02-17T21:41:50Z pareidolia: Whoa. CLISP really doesn't like named-readtables
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2016-02-17T21:43:26Z mordocai: CLISP hates everything
2016-02-17T21:43:33Z mordocai: Or everything hates CLISP
2016-02-17T21:44:26Z pareidolia: Humm. Maybe I had a really old ql dist
2016-02-17T21:44:45Z pareidolia: I thought QL kept them synchronized between implementations
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2016-02-17T21:47:10Z pareidolia: It doesn't like to see :MAIL-TO in defsystems
2016-02-17T21:47:39Z pareidolia: :mailto
2016-02-17T21:48:24Z |3b|: possibly needs newer asdf
2016-02-17T21:50:02Z pareidolia: Ahh I remember
2016-02-17T21:50:10Z pareidolia: SBCL has it built-in
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2016-02-17T21:55:39Z pareidolia: Oh boy. Caveman2's make-project is broken in my SBCL, named-readtables is broken in my CLISP but everything is fine in CCL which uses ASDF 3.0.3 like CLISP
2016-02-17T21:56:23Z H4ns: pareidolia: CLISP is unmaintaned, so some bit rot is to be expected.  why do you want to use it in the first place?
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2016-02-17T21:57:11Z pareidolia: Wasn't aware of that. I wanted to keep it around for scripting because of its supremely fast startup times
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2016-02-17T21:59:10Z pareidolia: Which implementations are considered ok to use at the moment?
2016-02-17T21:59:51Z H4ns: clisp is "ok to use", it is just unmaintained.  the maintained open source implementations are sbcl, clozure cl, ecl and - to some extent - cmucl.
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2016-02-17T22:00:12Z Bicyclidine: and abcl, yeah?
2016-02-17T22:00:19Z H4ns: oops, abcl, sure
2016-02-17T22:00:28Z pareidolia: I'll keep that in mind
2016-02-17T22:00:43Z H4ns: i was pretty sure that i was missing out on one or two.  but when talking about startup time, abcl is out.
2016-02-17T22:00:44Z H4ns: ;)
2016-02-17T22:01:13Z pareidolia: LOL
2016-02-17T22:02:26Z pareidolia: It's a shame about CLISP, when I first started dabbling with CL I liked it because of readline and the menorah
2016-02-17T22:02:39Z pareidolia: At that time it took me two weeks to get emacs set up with swank and slime
2016-02-17T22:03:34Z H4ns: you can replace "clisp", "readline" and the "menorah" by "vax/vms", "phone" and "r/debug" for me.
2016-02-17T22:04:30Z pareidolia: Phone?
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2016-02-17T22:04:44Z H4ns: an ancient chat program that ran on vms
2016-02-17T22:04:55Z H4ns: fancy vt100 thing.
2016-02-17T22:05:03Z pareidolia: I take it "r/debug" doesn't live in Reddit
2016-02-17T22:05:11Z H4ns: lol reddit
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2016-02-17T22:23:58Z fchurca: pareidolia: i personally enjoy sbcl with slimv and vim
2016-02-17T22:25:55Z antoszka: fchurca: you might want to investigate spacemacs with the common-lisp layer – there's very good vim emulation and very nicely integrated SLIME.
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2016-02-17T22:26:05Z fchurca: pareidolia: i tried sb-readline for when i wanted to run sbcl on its own without a slimv, but i can't remember why it gave slimv indigestion
2016-02-17T22:26:36Z fchurca: pareidolia: and i was too lazy to mess around with my .sbclrc to only load one or the other
2016-02-17T22:27:13Z oleo: use rlwrap where i start my sbcl.....
2016-02-17T22:27:21Z antoszka: oleo: why not LINEDIT?
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2016-02-17T22:27:31Z antoszka: oleo: it's native and takes over the repl
2016-02-17T22:27:38Z antoszka: without rlwrap's problems
2016-02-17T22:27:39Z oleo: i tried that one too, it worked sometime good and then had issues later on, dunno what happened....
2016-02-17T22:27:39Z fchurca: antoszka: i am a slimv contributor! i can't abandon it now
2016-02-17T22:27:48Z antoszka: fchurca: haha, okay :)
2016-02-17T22:27:55Z oleo: i have linedit as an option still.....i just disabled the lines which enable it.....
2016-02-17T22:28:05Z fchurca: antoszka: ... ok, i only contributed a line and a half, but it still counts... right?
2016-02-17T22:28:13Z antoszka: certainly
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2016-02-17T22:28:22Z antoszka: but yeah, have a look at spacemacs one day
2016-02-17T22:28:51Z antoszka: i find it wonderful (coming from a vim background and having used emacs for a number of years with slime)
2016-02-17T22:28:53Z jackdaniel uses rlwrap, since it provides history for each implementation
2016-02-17T22:28:53Z fchurca: i have indeed considered it, but my .vimrc feels quite cozy
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2016-02-17T22:33:44Z fchurca: i have made a short script that starts up a vim with a scratch buffer with filetype=lisp and tries to SlimvConnectServer()
2016-02-17T22:33:55Z fchurca: i would like persistent history for slimv though
2016-02-17T22:34:29Z antoszka: ;)
2016-02-17T22:35:03Z fchurca: actually, some criticism would be nice: https://github.com/fchurca/futils/blob/master/visp
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2016-02-17T22:36:09Z fchurca: the source has an inline readme; i should make it printable with -h, as well as the bsd license which is currently in another file
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2016-02-17T22:37:11Z newcup: jackdaniel: I just noticed ecl quarterly vol 3 is out. nice! too bad it's not listed in planet lisp, just like vol 2 wasn't either
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2016-02-17T22:39:08Z jackdaniel: newcup: I'm limited on time and don't have know-how how to easily set rss feed from org-mode export
2016-02-17T22:39:20Z jackdaniel: but it's on the checklist ;)
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2016-02-17T22:42:06Z newcup: jackdaniel: yes, I remember. I was just hoping someone had volunteered to help already :)
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2016-02-17T22:43:07Z Winowa: hi anyone around?
2016-02-17T22:43:18Z fchurca: t
2016-02-17T22:44:30Z Winowa: i have written a small application which i think is in very bad CL (common Lisp) need help with it on how i can improve it. Minor tweaks should be great.
2016-02-17T22:45:29Z jackdaniel: Winowa: I think sharing the actual code would help with providing some hints ;-)
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2016-02-17T22:47:12Z Winowa: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LAZ
2016-02-17T22:48:08Z Winowa: Here are the images http://imgur.com/a/9gvp5
2016-02-17T22:48:10Z jackdaniel: Winowa: first thing, you should indent your code properly (defstruct isn't indented)
2016-02-17T22:49:10Z jackdaniel: also, you should put at least one space in (setf x y) ;; between x and y
2016-02-17T22:49:10Z jackdaniel: )
2016-02-17T22:49:45Z jackdaniel: (setf Ar(make-sld ...)) looks confusing, like Ar being some function with different then lisp's syntax
2016-02-17T22:50:08Z jackdaniel: CL comments are ";;", not "//", so '// whatever' is confusing
2016-02-17T22:50:31Z jackdaniel: regarding later defuns – indent your code (emacs does it automatically)
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2016-02-17T22:51:29Z jackdaniel: Winowa: that's what I see as the most obvious flaws of the pasted code (at first glance)
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2016-02-17T22:51:48Z Winowa: jackdaniel: Editing them this instance
2016-02-17T22:51:58Z fchurca: the solution seems to be hard-coded
2016-02-17T22:52:08Z newcup: Winowa: at the beginning of that paste, those setf:s and setq:s should be replaced with defparameter
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2016-02-17T22:52:38Z newcup: Winowa: e.g. (setf Ar(make-sld ...)) -> (defparameter *Ar* (make-sld ...))
2016-02-17T22:52:55Z Winowa: mayi know whats the difference?
2016-02-17T22:53:53Z jackdaniel: Winowa: setf assigns the parameter, and if it doesn't exist it creates it. defparameter though is designed for explicit declaring the parameters. Using only setf is considered a bad style
2016-02-17T22:54:30Z fchurca: *a-variable-like-this* is human-recognizable as a "global" variable, so to speak, while a-variable-like-this isn't. the asterisks are informally referred to as earmuffs
2016-02-17T22:55:14Z fchurca: +a-constant-like-this+ , with plus signs instead of asterisks, is used too for global constants, although i can't remember the informal name for that notation
2016-02-17T22:55:38Z ieure: plusmuffs
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2016-02-17T22:58:03Z fchurca: back later
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2016-02-17T22:59:02Z Winowa: jackdaniel: you were  saying a space on (setf x y) which line would that refer to
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2016-02-17T23:00:16Z jackdaniel: Winowa: many of them :) for instance (setf Ar(make-sld :distance 366 :name "Arad")) – it should be (at least, I agree that it should be defparameter) (setf Ar (make-sld :distance 366 :name "Arad"))  ;; note the space between Ar and #\(
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2016-02-17T23:01:15Z jackdaniel: I need to go (I'm very sleepy now, it's after midnight here) :) gn
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2016-02-17T23:03:26Z newcup: Winowa: (car (car X)) can be written as (caar X), (car (cdr X)) as (cadr X) and so forth. but the best thing would be to abstract direct cons-cell handling away with some kind of interface to the datatype being handled
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2016-02-17T23:05:33Z Winowa: newcup: okaay thanks for the heads up
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2016-02-17T23:06:10Z Winowa: i feel the way i write this program is not in an executable way one that fits ina .cl directly
2016-02-17T23:06:19Z Winowa: one that you can compile and run right away
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2016-02-17T23:08:00Z newcup: Winowa: also, there's a lot of repetition and everything happens on top-level and you use a lot of "globals". you could eliminate a lot of the repetition by using macros and functions
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2016-02-17T23:09:16Z Winowa: newcup: would you mind to give me an example of where i could put them into a macro/function
2016-02-17T23:09:20Z newcup: Winowa: the multiple "(defun temporary() ..." parts look very strange
2016-02-17T23:10:03Z odroid: Am I misunderstanding this? (with-slots (a) (some-function a)) works, but (with-slots (a) (some-function a) (some-other-function a)) fails because a can only be used once?
2016-02-17T23:10:19Z newcup: Winowa: I'll cook something up, just a minute
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2016-02-17T23:10:49Z Winowa: i did that because passing into pop wouldnt read a setf , it only takes a defun, thus the temporary
2016-02-17T23:10:59Z Winowa: *temporary ()
2016-02-17T23:11:06Z Bicyclidine: odroid: no, it doesn't work like that.
2016-02-17T23:11:49Z Bicyclidine: odroid: are you seeing it work like that?
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2016-02-17T23:12:52Z odroid: The slot-value is available for the whole time it is inside (with-slots... right?
2016-02-17T23:13:12Z Bicyclidine: should be. of course, you could unbind the slot or something.
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2016-02-17T23:13:44Z odroid: no, I haven't willimgly done that.
2016-02-17T23:15:37Z Bicyclidine: basically all with-slots does is make "a" a macro expanding to something like (slot-value object 'a).
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2016-02-17T23:18:38Z yyzzxx: hello
2016-02-17T23:18:48Z yyzzxx: what's the equivalent of glibc in lisp?
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2016-02-17T23:19:09Z yyzzxx asking due to huuuge bug in glibc hitting the news.
2016-02-17T23:19:16Z |3b|: glibc
2016-02-17T23:19:52Z |3b|: (if by 'equivalent' you mean "some random system lib that you probably use since the OS API is C")
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2016-02-17T23:20:42Z |3b|: of you mean "the library of functions specified by the language and related standards", it is built into the lisp implementation/runtime for most lisps
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2016-02-17T23:21:32Z p_l: yyzzxx: the equivalent of glibc is your lisp implementation. for various reasons on linux that usually means interacting with glibc, too, because of how many interfaces are done through it
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2016-02-17T23:23:54Z p_l: if certain stuff was done right the functions involved wouldn't be a) in libc b) part of calling process image
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2016-02-17T23:24:43Z p_l: (to look at example of what I consider the right approach, consider Plan9's ndb - not ideal, but a lot better)
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2016-02-17T23:35:31Z newcup: Winowa: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/307547#1
2016-02-17T23:37:16Z newcup: Winowa: Now, this is just an example of the sld-input. There's much more that you could do. E.g. I wouldn't have each city as a "global" variable, but I'd have a list of all defined cities from where you could search by name etc.
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2016-02-17T23:38:11Z Winowa: newcup: first of all thanks for this. I did try to use the search / member function.
2016-02-17T23:38:26Z Winowa: But they cant read a class/setf
2016-02-17T23:38:41Z Winowa: from the examples i ahve seen they only read a string directly
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2016-02-17T23:42:29Z |3b|: (princ (format nil ...)) seems like an odd thing to do
2016-02-17T23:42:59Z |3b|: and LOOP DO has an implicit progn
2016-02-17T23:43:46Z newcup: Winowa: regarding find, see http://paste.lisp.org/+6LAZ/2
2016-02-17T23:44:20Z newcup: |3b|: true. I'll need to go to sleep soon...
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2016-02-17T23:45:10Z |3b|: and if nobody mentioned it yet, SETF doesn't create variables in CL, even if that happens to be the effect in some implementations
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2016-02-17T23:50:50Z fchurca: hullo again
2016-02-17T23:51:09Z Winowa: newcup: I have never seen find and key before.
2016-02-17T23:51:19Z Winowa: Really new in Lisp. Will look it up thank0s
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2016-02-17T23:52:06Z jongquol: ahh it's a wonderful day
2016-02-17T23:52:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: fchurca: I'm glad there's at least one other slimv loyalist around.
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2016-02-17T23:53:17Z fchurca: Winowa: please do read Practical Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, it has a free online version, although the dead-tree version is pretty good. it'll do you plenty good!
2016-02-17T23:53:28Z fchurca: fiddlerwoaroof: indeed!
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2016-02-18T00:31:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's a macro I've found useful: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LB3
2016-02-18T00:31:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The code is a bit ugly, because I was experimenting with using a tagbody to simulate TCO
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2016-02-18T00:32:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: And because I haven't done much more than get it to work.
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2016-02-18T00:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wow, the mouse-over rainbow-parens on paste.lisp.org are really cool.
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2016-02-18T00:42:09Z quazimodo: #i3
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2016-02-18T01:00:48Z |3b|: is there an easy way to get format ~a to not wrap long lines?
2016-02-18T01:01:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: I'd suspect that there is a special variable that controls that.
2016-02-18T01:01:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe this? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_pre.htm
2016-02-18T01:01:47Z |3b| too, but *print-right-margin* didn't seem to help
2016-02-18T01:05:08Z |3b|: hmm, might help if i put it around the right format call :/
2016-02-18T01:05:33Z |3b|: yeah, that works
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2016-02-18T01:42:11Z fewdea_: does anyone recall a conversation in here not too long ago about slots crashing sbcl? i'm having a similar thing happen while using postmodern
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2016-02-18T02:00:01Z |3b|: was there some reason (possibly emacs related?) for using #|| ||# instead of #| |# ?
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2016-02-18T02:06:57Z Bike: it helped slime's coloring at some point
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2016-02-18T02:52:20Z kenanb: is the fact that this works Ansi CL compliant?
2016-02-18T02:52:24Z kenanb: (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (name))) (path (merge-pathnames name)))
2016-02-18T02:52:56Z kenanb: I mean the fact that I refer the parameter in the constructor in initform of a slot
2016-02-18T02:53:41Z kenanb: CLHS says: "It is as if the slot-initforms were used as initialization forms for the keyword parameters of the constructor function." at some place, but the context was kind of different, so I am not sure if CLHS actually means what I tried
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2016-02-18T02:53:53Z kenanb: this works in sbcl
2016-02-18T02:54:08Z Bike: ...what the heck, why does this work.
2016-02-18T02:54:36Z kenanb: Bike: :D
2016-02-18T02:54:49Z Bike: i thought initforms were evaluated in an empty lexenv.
2016-02-18T02:55:02Z pillton: No. They are captured.
2016-02-18T02:55:10Z kenanb: Bike: CLHS: The slot default init forms are evaluated in the lexical environment in which the defstruct form itself appears and in the dynamic environment in which the call to the constructor function appears.
2016-02-18T02:55:20Z Bike: okay, right, sure.
2016-02-18T02:55:28Z Bike: but not in a lexenv that would have name bound.
2016-02-18T02:55:30Z kenanb: so this is Ansi compliant?
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2016-02-18T02:58:39Z Bike: i can't tell.
2016-02-18T02:58:52Z kenanb: Bike: I was thinking I should use &aux (path (merge-pathnames name)) in constructor to make this work, but then I realized it works this way too
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2016-02-18T03:00:31Z Bike: it works in ccl as well.
2016-02-18T03:01:43Z kenanb: and in ECL
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2016-02-18T03:02:57Z kenanb: Bike: and in cmucl
2016-02-18T03:03:02Z kenanb: seems to be working everywhere
2016-02-18T03:04:17Z kenanb: yep, it also worked in clisp
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2016-02-18T03:08:39Z kenanb: (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (name))) (path (merge-pathnames name)))
2016-02-18T03:08:39Z kenanb: (defstruct (bar (:constructor make-bar (name)) (:include foo)))
2016-02-18T03:08:39Z kenanb:  
2016-02-18T03:08:45Z kenanb: even this works
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2016-02-18T03:09:24Z kenanb: (make-bar "~/") => #S(BAR :PATH #P"~/")
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2016-02-18T03:12:03Z kenanb: I guess these are all ANSI compliant, all implementations worked exactly the same way
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2016-02-18T03:12:57Z Bike: that doesn't guarantee it, but it's pretty good evidence, yeah
2016-02-18T03:15:23Z kenanb: I have a source that is full of definitions over destructive operations on file system, I want to make sure it does the type checks ALWAYS. is it ok to just say (declaim (optimize safety)) or should I explicitly define all optimize qualities
2016-02-18T03:16:26Z kenanb: CLHS says when (optimize safety) it is referred to as safe-code. I guess that means it guarantees to do the checks, right?
2016-02-18T03:16:44Z pillton: I wonder if it is because of this "It is as if the slot-initforms were used as initialization forms for the keyword parameters of the constructor function.".
2016-02-18T03:17:27Z Bike: kenanb: no, safe code means that standard functions that "should signal an error" in some situation will signal an error.
2016-02-18T03:17:43Z Bike: kenanb: if you want to force type checks the way to do it is explicit calls. i.e. check-type.
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2016-02-18T03:18:48Z kenanb: Bike: yes, I also do that, what I was trying to be sure is that all type specifications to slots etc will be used to check type
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2016-02-18T03:20:02Z Bike: "It is implementation-dependent whether the type is checked when initializing a slot or when assigning to it."
2016-02-18T03:20:05Z Bike: so no guarantees.
2016-02-18T03:20:46Z kenanb: pillton: well, I thought so but the context seemed to be different around that quote, but I haven't seen much to imply such behaviour except that and the other quote I pasted here
2016-02-18T03:20:55Z kenanb: Bike: hmm, I see.
2016-02-18T03:21:08Z kenanb: Ok, I will add explicit checks then
2016-02-18T03:22:07Z kenanb: Bike: thank you, I know it was painful trying to explain it to me :)
2016-02-18T03:22:32Z kenanb: Bike: is the nickname related to BioBike btw?
2016-02-18T03:22:55Z Bike: nah. i'm the bike in the shed, man
2016-02-18T03:23:56Z pillton: What colour are you?
2016-02-18T03:23:59Z kenanb: hah, I always thought you are someone from that project :)
2016-02-18T03:24:05Z pillton: Sorry. What colour is the shed?
2016-02-18T03:24:18Z Bike: octarine
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2016-02-18T05:10:17Z clintm: important fact that.
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2016-02-18T05:25:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-18T05:26:36Z o`connor: good night beach!
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2016-02-18T05:33:01Z loke: kenanb: In practice, most implementations will type-check wherever it can. Especially when safety is 3
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2016-02-18T05:33:42Z loke: kenanb: Just don't write your code to rely on it (such as catching the condition instead of checking a type)
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2016-02-18T05:37:06Z pillton: clhs 1.4.4.3
2016-02-18T05:37:07Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2016-02-18T05:37:52Z pillton: kenanb: From 1.4.4.3 "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions [on what arguments an operator accepts] are violated."
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2016-02-18T05:43:04Z jongquol is now known as hiklin
2016-02-18T05:44:58Z hiklin: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-02-18T06:05:09Z kenanb: loke, pillton awesome, thanks for the detailed explanation!
2016-02-18T06:05:27Z kenanb: morning beach!
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2016-02-18T06:06:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone here use manardb?
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2016-02-18T06:22:19Z clintm: mornin' beach!
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2016-02-18T08:48:52Z zyg: Hi! How do you setup so you can lookup your projects function using emacs side of slime? (I can look up CL functions in hyperspec using c-c c-d h)
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2016-02-18T08:50:47Z jackdaniel: M-. for source and C-d d for doc
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2016-02-18T08:51:19Z jackdaniel: C-c C-d d   (the latter) *
2016-02-18T08:53:51Z loke: re
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2016-02-18T09:02:14Z zyg: what slime function is M-. bound to? (I seem to have it bound to some evil command)
2016-02-18T09:02:59Z Munksgaard: Find out yourself with C-h k M-.
2016-02-18T09:03:10Z Munksgaard: :D
2016-02-18T09:04:18Z Munksgaard: oh
2016-02-18T09:04:45Z Munksgaard: I guess I didn't read your whole message. On my system it's slime-edit-definition
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2016-02-18T09:07:04Z zyg: Munksgaard: Thanks! I need to restore that bind
2016-02-18T09:07:22Z Munksgaard: zyg: You're welcome :)
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2016-02-18T14:42:00Z Posterdati: hi
2016-02-18T14:42:20Z djh: lo
2016-02-18T14:43:50Z Posterdati: I've got problem compiling slime-2.14 on sbcl 1.3.2.86: Symbol *ASSEM-INSTRUCTIONS* not found in the SB-ASSEM package
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2016-02-18T14:46:11Z akuwa: hi
2016-02-18T14:46:42Z akuwa: how please I can pass pointer to pointer to a C func by using CFFI?
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2016-02-18T14:48:01Z akuwa: and how can I work with pointers to pointers [to pointers]* with CFFI or maybe with pure Clozure CL?
2016-02-18T14:52:04Z jdz: akuwa: you have to allocate the pointers
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2016-02-18T14:53:06Z akuwa: jdz: example, please?
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2016-02-18T14:57:40Z jdz: akuwa: something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/307599
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2016-02-18T15:02:54Z akuwa: jdz: ah, I see, thanks
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2016-02-18T15:41:18Z flip214: what's the function to find the first set bit in an integer? ie. 3 for 8, etc.?
2016-02-18T15:42:46Z flip214: the _lowest_ set bit, alternatively the number of 0 bits
2016-02-18T15:44:04Z flip214: I guess I'll need to XOR with (1- N) and do LOGCOUNT or so
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2016-02-18T15:45:00Z flip214: perhaps better phrased: how do I get the number of identical bits in two numbers?
2016-02-18T15:46:14Z mtl_: flip214: xor and count the zeroes?
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2016-02-18T15:48:51Z moore33: and and count the ones :)
2016-02-18T15:49:04Z flip214: mtl_: I'm now doing (LOG (LOGXOR a b) 2), yeah.
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2016-02-18T15:51:34Z moore33: flip214: Doesn't (logcount (logand a b)) do what you want?
2016-02-18T15:51:47Z moore33: Oh, no wait.
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2016-02-18T15:52:09Z flip214: moore33: no, that only counts *set* bits
2016-02-18T15:52:15Z mtl_: and would only give you the identical bits that are on
2016-02-18T15:52:18Z flip214: popcnt is what I was searching for
2016-02-18T15:52:32Z moore33: (logcount (lognot (logxor a b)))
2016-02-18T15:52:33Z flip214: but that's not a CL function
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2016-02-18T15:53:55Z flip214: moore33: 8 and 12 have 3 identical low bits; same as  0xffffff8 and 0xc.  yours  differs for the latter example.
2016-02-18T15:54:35Z flip214: sorry for being unclear
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2016-02-18T17:00:28Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-02-18T17:03:27Z moore33: beach: Hey.
2016-02-18T17:04:36Z moore33: beach: Ran an emacs keyboard macro today for the first time in at least 25 years :)
2016-02-18T17:04:56Z ralt: really?
2016-02-18T17:05:01Z ralt: I use that fairly often
2016-02-18T17:05:08Z beach: Impressive!
2016-02-18T17:05:14Z moore33: ralt: I don't, obviously :)
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2016-02-18T17:08:40Z beach: moore33: What did it do?
2016-02-18T17:09:06Z djh: "deleted everything, but I'm pretty sure I know why" :)
2016-02-18T17:10:28Z moore33: beach: Um... having trouble remembering... I guess that's the nature of them. I think I visited a bunch of c++ function calls and put the last argument on the following line.
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2016-02-18T17:10:56Z beach: Oh, just for practice?  Or some serious transformation?
2016-02-18T17:11:34Z moore33: beach: I actually wanted to do this thing, and figured that a keyboard macro would save some time.
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2016-02-18T17:11:52Z beach: OK.
2016-02-18T17:12:17Z moore33: Some other change had made the lines too long.
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2016-02-18T17:12:44Z beach: Yes, I see.  Perfect use for keyboard macros.
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2016-02-18T17:14:46Z beach: Today, I needed a break from my papers, so I added (the beginning of) a chapter to this document: http://metamodular.com/cl-reference.pdf
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2016-02-18T17:15:32Z beach: When I started that one, I think I was too cautious about copying material from the standard.  I guess at the time I didn't know that the draft ANSI standard is public domain.
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2016-02-18T17:21:24Z beach: So, I should probably update the README here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference to reflect that it is fine to copy material from the draft ANSI standard.
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2016-02-18T17:46:24Z beach: There, done.
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2016-02-18T17:54:04Z fchurca: are there any dependencies for building that manual?
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2016-02-18T18:14:44Z yakkie: Hey guys, i've been trying to find a list of all the common lisp functions / macros but i just can't seem to find it
2016-02-18T18:15:17Z dlowe: clhs 1.9
2016-02-18T18:15:17Z specbot: Symbols in the COMMON-LISP Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_i.htm
2016-02-18T18:15:30Z yakkie: that was really helpful.
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2016-02-18T18:18:05Z yakkie: Is there also a list available with the 'minimal' set of functions for very simple lisp programs?
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2016-02-18T18:18:48Z Shinmera: What's minimal for some may not be so for others.
2016-02-18T18:19:03Z oGMo: "minimal" is all of CL and CL-USER, whether you're implementing a CL or writing a program.. they're all there
2016-02-18T18:19:15Z oGMo: if you mean "a useful set of starting functions i should learn," go read PCL or something?
2016-02-18T18:19:24Z fchurca: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
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2016-02-18T18:20:21Z yakkie: well, what i'm trying to get is just a small list of functionalities to implement so i can toy around a bit
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2016-02-18T18:21:32Z yakkie: thanks, fchurca, that was helpful
2016-02-18T18:22:23Z fchurca: you may want to implement just a few of them first, like tagbody, go, and if
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2016-02-18T18:24:45Z fchurca: yakkie: you're welcome
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2016-02-18T18:45:41Z PuercoPop: why doesn't class-slots work on eql-specializers? How does one retrieve the slot-object it specializes on (slot-value <specializer> 'object) doesn't work (it may be due the object symbol not belonging to the correct package
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2016-02-18T18:46:59Z Bicyclidine: You mean, how do you get the object an eql specializer is specializing on?
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2016-02-18T18:48:15Z Bicyclidine: because that's just mop:eql-specializer-object.
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2016-02-18T18:48:40Z Bicyclidine: (mop:class-slots <some eql specializer>) obviously doesn't work because an eql specializer is not a class.
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2016-02-18T18:48:59Z Bicyclidine: and i don't know what you're about with "slot-object".
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2016-02-18T18:50:57Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: yes, the object the eql is specializing on
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2016-02-18T18:51:46Z Bicyclidine: well here you go then.
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2016-02-18T18:53:43Z PuercoPop: I'm trying to avoid duplicating a method added on initialize-instance :after, so I list the specializers with (mapcar 'c2mop:method-specializers (c2mop:generic-function-methods #'<generic-function>))
2016-02-18T18:54:15Z Bicyclidine: Okay.
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2016-02-18T18:56:02Z PuercoPop: ok, (slot-value <specializer 'sb-pcl::object) works
2016-02-18T18:56:21Z Bicyclidine: No, just use eql-specializer-object.
2016-02-18T18:57:04Z Bicyclidine: It is the function that does exactly what you want.
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2016-02-18T18:59:38Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: yeah, thanks.
2016-02-18T19:01:00Z PuercoPop: one more question, I am correct to assume that reinitialize-instance calls initializer-instance right?
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2016-02-18T19:01:29Z Shinmera: It doesn't.
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2016-02-18T19:02:10Z Bicyclidine: it calls shared-initialize, no?
2016-02-18T19:02:13Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2016-02-18T19:10:39Z PuercoPop: thanks for clarifying
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2016-02-18T19:50:59Z fchurca: any slimv partisans here?
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2016-02-18T19:51:48Z fchurca: i was wondering how it would be the prettiest way to patch it so you can optionally kill the lisp on closing the repl
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2016-02-18T19:52:37Z fchurca: SlimvQuitRepl(), despite supposedly calling python swank_quit_lisp(), doesn't seem to kill my sbcl
2016-02-18T19:55:09Z mordocai: Prettiest way: Use slime or sly in emacs + evil mode :P.
2016-02-18T19:55:17Z mordocai doesn't actually know the answer
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2016-02-18T19:59:06Z fchurca: the absolute prettiest way would be to manage to get McClim or another pure-CL editor running, if we nitpick :P
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2016-02-18T20:00:15Z mordocai: fchurca: second-climacs!
2016-02-18T20:00:23Z fchurca: hmm, looks like in slimv.vim s:swank_connected is never actually set away from 0
2016-02-18T20:01:30Z fchurca: i am very, very afraid to google "second climacs screenshots"
2016-02-18T20:01:55Z fchurca: i have the slightest of the suspicions that it may not actually show me ide screen captures
2016-02-18T20:02:05Z ieure: haha
2016-02-18T20:02:32Z mordocai: Lol, I don't think it is quite to the point of screen shots. Beach is working on it. https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2016-02-18T20:03:04Z fchurca: i have indeed taken a quick look at the repo
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2016-02-18T20:03:47Z fchurca: just curious, is it forked from climacs? it was active as of last may
2016-02-18T20:04:45Z mordocai: fchurca: I'm not sure, it is the same author AFAIK
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2016-02-18T20:05:36Z mordocai: Also, all the climacs code repos i've found searching google haven't had a commit in 6 years or more
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2016-02-18T20:06:55Z fchurca: that may just be when Quickdocs broused it then
2016-02-18T20:07:02Z fchurca: s/broused/browsed/
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2016-02-18T20:09:15Z fchurca: looks like SlimvQuitRepl() does actually kill my sbcl and I am just blind
2016-02-18T20:09:22Z mordocai: I didn't use quickdoc
2016-02-18T20:09:25Z mordocai: quickdocs*
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2016-02-18T20:09:36Z mordocai: I was literally looking at the git repos
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2016-02-18T20:10:09Z fchurca: i was not as attentive indeed. i am not having an attentive day.
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2016-02-18T20:56:56Z fchurca: any tips on how to actually run second-climacs?
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2016-02-18T20:58:40Z Opodeldoc: fchurca: Last I heard about it was just that it "isn't ready". Ask beach if you seem him around though.
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2016-02-18T21:00:06Z fchurca: that is quite a pity. the manual looks pretty, even as sparse as it is.
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2016-02-18T21:01:41Z |3b|: does cffi need a definition for SOME-TYPE to compile a DEFCSTRUCT containing (:POINTER SOME-TYPE)?
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2016-02-18T21:04:18Z attila_lendvai: |3b|: I think yes, because I had to patch it to be able to deal with fully typed linked lists
2016-02-18T21:04:29Z |3b|:  :/
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2016-02-18T21:55:24Z pareidol1a: I would like to invite some criticism https://gist.github.com/coseltech/c713db34cd7440507281
2016-02-18T21:58:44Z ieure: pareidol1a, Too many parens!N1!?!1!231
2016-02-18T21:58:49Z pareidol1a: ...
2016-02-18T21:59:05Z Bicyclidine: looks okay to me.
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2016-02-18T21:59:40Z |3b|: (split-sequence #\% (alexandria:read-file-into-string #p"..."))?
2016-02-18T21:59:49Z Bicyclidine: i think the inherent structure of slurping fixed chunks and pasting things together out of them forces it to be kind of weird.
2016-02-18T22:00:14Z pareidol1a: |3b|: That's what I'd do in Clojure ("slurp")
2016-02-18T22:00:19Z pareidol1a: Just wanted to practice doing loops
2016-02-18T22:00:21Z Bicyclidine: oh, i think it will fail if you have a chunk with no % in it.
2016-02-18T22:00:46Z pareidol1a: A file with no % ?
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2016-02-18T22:01:22Z Bicyclidine: No, like if you have a 4096 chunk with a % with characters after it, then a 4096 chunk with no %, then a 4096 chunk with characters before it. the section from the first chunk would get ignored.
2016-02-18T22:01:29Z pareidol1a: Oops
2016-02-18T22:01:47Z Bicyclidine: *with characters before the %
2016-02-18T22:02:14Z |3b| would put LIST on its own line in PUSH
2016-02-18T22:02:46Z |3b| finds short arguments are harder to find when put at end of a preceding multiline argument
2016-02-18T22:02:53Z pareidol1a: Agreed
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2016-02-18T23:29:34Z |3b|: what's the easiest way to test for 64-bit at read time?
2016-02-18T23:29:44Z |3b| doesn't see a feature in trivial-features
2016-02-18T23:30:16Z jasom: |3b|: most-positive-fixnum is a bit of a hack, but usually tracks 32/64 bit
2016-02-18T23:30:49Z |3b|: for code using CFFI, if it has anything that helps
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2016-02-18T23:33:03Z pillton: #+:x86-64 ?
2016-02-18T23:33:13Z |3b| wouldn't expect arm or ppc to have that set :p
2016-02-18T23:33:20Z pillton: Oh whoops.
2016-02-18T23:33:35Z pillton finds his coffee cup.
2016-02-18T23:33:43Z oGMo: surprised trivial-features doesn't have anything
2016-02-18T23:33:51Z pillton: I have :64-bit in my *features*.
2016-02-18T23:34:11Z |3b| wants an equivalent of #if defined(__LP64__) || defined(_WIN64) || defined(__x86_64__) || defined(_M_X64) || defined(__ia64) || defined (_M_IA64) || defined(__aarch64__) || defined(__powerpc64__)
2016-02-18T23:34:17Z |3b|: but hopefully less verbose :p
2016-02-18T23:34:40Z edgar-rft: read the CPU section of <https://github.com/trivial-features/trivial-features/blob/master/SPEC.md>
2016-02-18T23:34:47Z |3b|: pillton: yeah, but who put it there :p
2016-02-18T23:35:41Z |3b|: edgar-rft: that just leaves #+(or x86-64 ppc64 etc), right?
2016-02-18T23:36:38Z edgar-rft: ok, it's not *really* convenient, but better than nothing
2016-02-18T23:36:39Z |3b| would prefer something more direct, and notes it doesn't list arm/arm64
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2016-02-18T23:37:04Z |3b| will just do #.(if (= 8 (foreign-type-size :pointer) ... ...))
2016-02-18T23:39:23Z pillton: Use the CFFI groveller and inttypes.h.
2016-02-18T23:40:13Z pillton: That won't work either. Nevermind.
2016-02-18T23:40:20Z pillton is off to a good start today.
2016-02-18T23:40:24Z |3b|: :)
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2016-02-18T23:51:17Z pillton: |3b|: Any chance of a trivial-64-bit-feature project?
2016-02-18T23:51:27Z |3b|: not from me :p
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2016-02-19T00:18:28Z Quadrescence: pillton, isn't there TRIVIAL-FEATURES? Maybe it should be incorporated there.
2016-02-19T00:21:47Z pillton: Quadrescence: It was an attempt at humour. Trivial lisp humour.
2016-02-19T00:21:59Z pillton: Clearly I can't give up my day job.
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2016-02-19T00:35:07Z |3b|: hmm, if i set a member in a cffi struct to :string, i guess that's just going to leak memory, right?
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2016-02-19T00:37:44Z dreamaddict: does anyone know how create-scanner works in cl-ppcre?
2016-02-19T00:38:14Z |3b|: actually, i guess i probably need to keep them around anyway
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2016-02-19T00:40:56Z dreamaddict: I tried (defparameter *scanner* (cl-ppcre:create-scanner ".*([a-z]{1,2})\\s")) in order to make, hopefully, a closure that returns matches of one or two letter words
2016-02-19T00:41:24Z dreamaddict: possibly create-scanner doesn't raise an error if the regex is invalid...the other functions in the lib seem to, though
2016-02-19T00:41:57Z |3b|: i think the idea is that you use that wherever you would have passed a regex as a string, rather than calling it directly
2016-02-19T00:42:12Z dreamaddict: ok hmmm
2016-02-19T00:42:15Z |3b|: 'that' as in the result of create-scanner
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2016-02-19T00:43:05Z dreamaddict: what I really want is to collect, using a loop, all of the regex results over an entire text file
2016-02-19T00:43:12Z |3b|: if you pass a literal string at compile time it can precompile the regex instead of parsing it on every call. if you don't know it in advance, but will be making multiple calls with it, you can use create-scanner to precompile it at runtime
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2016-02-19T00:43:33Z dreamaddict: ok
2016-02-19T00:43:40Z |3b|: (same way formatter works with format in CL)
2016-02-19T00:43:42Z dreamaddict: I get what that is for
2016-02-19T00:44:12Z |3b|: ppcre:all-matches or something like that?
2016-02-19T00:44:30Z kodnin: Anyone knows how I can get Common Lisp to play a midi note? I'm not interested in Common Music. Found some libs, but documentation was lacking.
2016-02-19T00:45:01Z dreamaddict: kodnin:  from what I've found firsthand trying to get sound and Lisp working, sound is very difficult
2016-02-19T00:45:24Z kodnin: dreamaddict: I'm not interested in sound per se.
2016-02-19T00:45:48Z dreamaddict: all-matches would probably work if I fed it the whole text file at once
2016-02-19T00:46:03Z kodnin: dreamaddict: Just playing (or sending) a midi note and having another program play the sound.
2016-02-19T00:47:15Z dreamaddict: another thing I was wondering, when are macros evaluated?
2016-02-19T00:47:41Z dreamaddict: can you write code that macros out at runtime to something different, depending on what the runtime input is?
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2016-02-19T00:49:06Z |3b|: macros are evaluated during compilation (in fact that is the only thing required for compilation in CL)
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2016-02-19T00:49:28Z |3b|: if the code isn't compiled, then it probably expanded every time it is evaluated
2016-02-19T00:50:07Z |3b|: it may or may not be expanded at any other arbitrary time, for example if your editor expands it to try to figure out things about it or something
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2016-02-19T00:51:22Z |3b|: macros only see the literal arguments, not any values those arguments might have as variables, so the input probably doesn't change at "runtime", depending on how you define "runtime"
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2016-02-19T00:52:02Z |3b|: (arguably macros happen at the "runtime" of the compiler, which may happen after other arbitrary code has run, so the term is a bit less precise in CL than in some languages)
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2016-02-19T00:52:18Z dreamaddict: I mean like...a function that returned a closure, which was written by a macro, which would write different code depending on some runtime input
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2016-02-19T00:52:32Z |3b|: input to what though?
2016-02-19T00:53:00Z |3b|: and runtime of what?
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2016-02-19T00:53:33Z pillton: dreamaddict: It is often clearer to start a paste illustrating your input and desired output.
2016-02-19T00:53:36Z |3b|: if you want to make an arbitrary new function when you run the function, you will probably need to use eval or compile in that function, rather than using a macro
2016-02-19T00:53:40Z dreamaddict: well the exact thing I am looking at is this: http://adventofcode.com/day/7
2016-02-19T00:53:55Z |3b|: though usually there are better ways to do things
2016-02-19T00:54:12Z dreamaddict: and there are lots of ways to do it, sure, but I'm kind of trying to stretch my skills and whatnot
2016-02-19T00:56:23Z dreamaddict: like, could you write a function that returned a closure, written by a macro, that scanned the input list and made a function from that input for given letters
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2016-02-19T00:57:41Z pillton: The "written by a macro" makes your question ambiguous.
2016-02-19T00:58:01Z |3b|: the closure scans the input?
2016-02-19T00:58:30Z dreamaddict: see I am not sure how Lisp would do this
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2016-02-19T00:59:21Z |3b|: probably just build the function from a top-level macro
2016-02-19T01:00:21Z |3b|: or assuming it actually needs custom code per input and not just some dynamic programming solver, maybe use COMPILE at run time
2016-02-19T01:00:28Z dreamaddict: but looking at the problem page, at the demo list of instructions there are two:  123 -> x, and NOT x -> h
2016-02-19T01:00:38Z |3b|: somewhere inbetween would be something like a closure-based interpreter
2016-02-19T01:00:46Z dreamaddict: so it would be nice to have a function that takes in "h", and returns (NOT 123)
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2016-02-19T02:49:34Z loke: dreamaddict: (defun the-fun (v) (if (equal v "h") '(not 123) (error "incorrect input")))
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2016-02-19T03:01:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does (class-direct-slots) work at macroexpansion time?
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2016-02-19T03:03:02Z Bike: sure, if you have the class.
2016-02-19T03:03:07Z |3b|: you can call any function during macro expansion
2016-02-19T03:03:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm wondering if I do (defclass) (eval-when (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute (class-direct-slots))
2016-02-19T03:03:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: What will the result be? (Can't test it at the moment...)
2016-02-19T03:03:57Z |3b|: clhs defclass
2016-02-19T03:03:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2016-02-19T03:04:05Z Bike: pretty sure defclass is mostly load time
2016-02-19T03:05:07Z |3b|: hmm, looks like it might do enough at compile time
2016-02-19T03:05:32Z |3b|: specifically mentions find-class in a macro
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2016-02-19T03:22:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, does something like this http://paste.lisp.org/+6LDG make more sense as a function or as a macro?
2016-02-19T03:22:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. as the function equivalent)
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2016-02-19T03:29:13Z pillton: I'd expect something like that to be in a macrolet. The fact that all slots use the same predicate is very narrow.
2016-02-19T03:29:44Z Bike: i don't think that works in sbcl, it doesn't actually make a class, just notes that there's going to be a class with that name later
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2016-02-19T03:32:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd occur after the fact
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2016-02-19T03:33:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. there'd be a (defclass foo) then (make-equality foo)
2016-02-19T03:33:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the spec's documentation indicates that the class definition shuld be accessible after the defclass form.
2016-02-19T03:34:42Z Bike: well, it doesn't work. says there's no such class.
2016-02-19T03:34:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm.
2016-02-19T03:36:07Z Bike: It says that the class name is recognized as a type, and as a class name for defmethod specializers and for :metaclass. i'm not sure what it means about find-class, really.
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2016-02-19T03:40:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I'm getting a different error, about the class not being finalized, when I --load it into a fresh instance.
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2016-02-19T03:45:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the problem I'm having is that the list of slots isn't attached to the class until it's finalized.
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2016-02-19T03:46:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: But if I use class-direct-slots, it seems to work: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LDG/1
2016-02-19T03:47:12Z Bike: --load just loads without compiling first, doesn't it?
2016-02-19T03:47:40Z Bike: yeah. since it's loading it just evaluates one form at a time so t here's no problem.
2016-02-19T03:48:42Z pillton: Beach probably knows what is supposed to happen at compile time.
2016-02-19T03:49:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: How would I test compile-time behavior?
2016-02-19T03:49:50Z pillton: (compile-file "blah") then check for the existence of the class.
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2016-02-19T03:51:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, it doesn't work at compile-time.
2016-02-19T03:51:53Z pillton: Have you tried other implementations?
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2016-02-19T03:53:22Z pillton: The general pattern followed in the Art of the Metaobject Protocol is to have the macro def-X expand to a call to ensure-X. I'm not surprised it doesn't work.
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2016-02-19T03:54:06Z pillton: The sentence "The compiler must make the class definition available to be returned by find-class when its environment argument is a value received as the environment parameter of a macro." is puzzling though.
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2016-02-19T03:54:59Z Bike: yeah, i haven't a drat clue. (defclass foo ...) (macrolet ((bar (&environment env) `(print ,(find-class 'foo nil env)))) (bar)) => NIL when compilefiled
2016-02-19T03:55:11Z Bike: sbcl's find-class actually just ignores the environment
2016-02-19T03:55:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: pillton: no
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2016-02-19T03:56:18Z pillton: Bike: I'm not surprised by that either. There is no such thing as lexical classes.
2016-02-19T03:56:23Z Bike: on ccl it finds a class. of course it does.
2016-02-19T03:56:54Z Bike: the environment argument is there to let you distinguish compile-time and r untime environments, to quote from memory, because i don't understand what it means
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2016-02-19T03:57:44Z Bike: the class ccl finds is a full class. got slots and a finalized cpl and everything.
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2016-02-19T03:58:24Z Bike: which sure seems impossible because all it does at compile time is note the name and the accessors.
2016-02-19T03:58:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I suppose this basically would have to be defined as a function...
2016-02-19T03:59:27Z Bike: wait, i take that back.
2016-02-19T04:00:09Z Bike: yeah ok, there's a separate compile-time-class class, with no methods or anything.
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2016-02-19T04:00:52Z Bike: oh. oh boy. i do not like this.
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2016-02-19T04:01:21Z Bike: well, in any case the compile time class has no slots, so fiddlerwoaroof's thing wouldn't work.
2016-02-19T04:02:43Z Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/+6LDI get a load of this behavior
2016-02-19T04:03:39Z Bike: I think sbcl might be nonconformant, but fixing it wouldn't fix the make-equality thing.
2016-02-19T04:04:30Z pillton: It is weird that direct slots is empty.
2016-02-19T04:05:07Z pillton: You'd think there would be a standard-compile-time-slot-definition class.
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2016-02-19T04:05:26Z Bike: nah, i mean, at that point you might as welll just call ensure-class at compile time
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2016-02-19T04:07:07Z kenanb: I need a good logging facility
2016-02-19T04:07:20Z kenanb: recommendations?
2016-02-19T04:08:06Z kenanb: I guess vom and log4cl are popular choices, log4cl seems really good but there is a "lack of maintenance" notice in cliki page
2016-02-19T04:08:17Z kenanb: anyone using it? any problems?
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2016-02-19T04:30:51Z jasom: kenanb: I've been using log4cl, but a couple of people recommended an alternative that I'm struggling to recall the name of
2016-02-19T04:31:48Z Zhivago: They should have a library called "clog".
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2016-02-19T04:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: @Bike: so, calling ensure-class would make my macro work?
2016-02-19T04:41:20Z fiddlerwoaroof Slack habits die hard...
2016-02-19T04:41:21Z Bike: you could just put the defclass in an eval-when.
2016-02-19T04:41:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that's interesting
2016-02-19T04:42:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's slightly unintuitive to me...
2016-02-19T04:42:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's because I kinda assume that def* forms get special treatment
2016-02-19T04:42:53Z Bike: they do, just not as much special treatment as you assumed
2016-02-19T04:43:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I see.
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2016-02-19T04:46:01Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: the two solutions is to use eval-when, or put them in a separate lisp file and use asdf to make sure that they are loaded first
2016-02-19T04:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: thanks.
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2016-02-19T04:54:13Z kenanb: I don't know the context but asdf ops can have auxiliary methods defined in system using :perform keywords
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2016-02-19T04:54:41Z kenanb: it seemed relevant to question at hand, sorry if not
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2016-02-19T05:03:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, do ACL and Lispworks have better implementations of the MOP than the opensource lisps ?
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2016-02-19T05:04:31Z kenanb: what do you mean better
2016-02-19T05:04:41Z kenanb: closer-mop brings the api's closer
2016-02-19T05:05:34Z kenanb: so IMHO it doesn't matter much from user perspective, I didn't have any problems using mop in SBCL
2016-02-19T05:05:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: More complete and conformant to the relevant spec.
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2016-02-19T05:06:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I'm partly trying to figure out why someone would pay for them)
2016-02-19T05:06:55Z kenanb: well, as I mentioned, closer-mop tries to make them all conform to mop spec pretty successfully, so it really doesn't matter much
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2016-02-19T05:07:07Z kenanb: since closer-mop itself is open source
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2016-02-19T05:08:16Z kenanb: well, reasons depend on what you are working on
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2016-02-19T05:09:55Z kenanb: most stuff that was exclusive to commercial implementations are also available for open source implementations as libraries nowadays
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2016-02-19T05:10:47Z kenanb: there are still some stuff that are commercial exclusive
2016-02-19T05:11:15Z kenanb: tree-shaking support is one
2016-02-19T05:11:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: That means, basicaly pruning unused defs?
2016-02-19T05:12:21Z kenanb: or the fact that Franz doesn't only make Allegro but develop a complete stack for semantic web which works well with the Allegro is probably important to some of Allegro users
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2016-02-19T05:12:48Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2016-02-19T05:13:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've seen some job advertisements for allegrograph
2016-02-19T05:14:58Z kenanb: AFAIK some lispers e.g. Edi are extremely happy with Lispworks IDE.
2016-02-19T05:15:04Z kenanb: so there are reasons
2016-02-19T05:15:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've seen kenny tilton's rants on the subject.
2016-02-19T05:15:45Z kenanb: IIRC he is an Allegro user, not Lispworks
2016-02-19T05:16:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I thought I remember seeing him complain about emacs, thoug.
2016-02-19T05:16:19Z kenanb: I may be wrong
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2016-02-19T05:18:33Z kenanb: and lets not forget support
2016-02-19T05:18:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I hear people like that...
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2016-02-19T05:43:01Z clintm: There's also the native gui library (or do both of them have one?) that people who've used it seem to really like.
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2016-02-19T06:44:47Z smokeink: is it possible to trace (labels ((..))) functions using silme's trace dialog?
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2016-02-19T08:25:28Z cnshenyi: (message "hello")
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2016-02-19T08:26:48Z smokeink: hi
2016-02-19T08:27:30Z smokeink: (greet "你好")
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2016-02-19T08:29:01Z cnshenyi: smokeink: 中国人？
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2016-02-19T08:29:29Z smokeink: 外国人
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2016-02-19T09:59:41Z smokeink: when i try to step-debug in slime, it always jumps to some code inside swank.lisp . Someone suggested recompiling swank with debug info turned off. I tried like this, in a fresh sbcl session: (declaim (optimize (debug 0))) (asdf:load-system :swank :force t) , this only recompiled swank-loader.lisp , then i did (compile-file "/home/smokeink/.emacs.d/..etc/swank.lisp") and restarted slime to see if it made an
2016-02-19T09:59:47Z smokeink: y difference. It didn't. (break)ing then pressing 's' still goes to swank.lisp . What am i doing wrong?  malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
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2016-02-19T10:04:26Z jusss: dot pair is list?
2016-02-19T10:05:45Z djh: no, it's a cons cell
2016-02-19T10:07:06Z smokeink: if the cdr of that pair is nil then you can say it's a list with one element
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2016-02-19T10:08:01Z jusss: so cons cell is list?
2016-02-19T10:08:21Z Zhivago: A cons cell may be a link in a linked list.
2016-02-19T10:08:21Z smokeink: lists are made of cons cells
2016-02-19T10:08:48Z blub: a list is either a cons cell or nil
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2016-02-19T10:15:15Z Zhivago: blub; You mean the head of a list is ...
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2016-02-19T14:06:10Z anti-freeze: Hi everyone. So, I'm reading "On Lisp" and I got to chapter 10.3, where he talks about non-functional expanders in regards to macros. In his examples he destructively modifies macro rest args, displaying how this could cause you to unexpectedly alter the macro call. For some reason, the issues described aren't reflected in SBCL (example: https://www.refheap.com/114968). Why doesn't this work as expected? Also, is it st
2016-02-19T14:06:10Z anti-freeze: ill considered bad practice to destructively modify macro rest arguments?
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2016-02-19T14:08:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: "list n. 1. a chain of conses in which the car of each cons is an element of the list, and the cdr of each cons is either the next link in the chain or a terminating atom."
2016-02-19T14:08:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list
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2016-02-19T14:09:26Z lieven: anti-freeze: it could. it's not guaranteed. typically it will happen when the code is compiled and even then it might depend on optimisation settings
2016-02-19T14:09:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: anti-freeze: the main reason is probably that the standard doesn't define what happens when &rest is modified
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2016-02-19T14:11:17Z anti-freeze: I see. Thanks. Great book by the way
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2016-02-19T14:15:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs macrolet
2016-02-19T14:15:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2016-02-19T17:02:50Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-02-19T17:03:26Z moore33: beach: I admire your discipline in cutting yourself off from IRC during the day.
2016-02-19T17:03:43Z loke`: Hejj beach
2016-02-19T17:03:58Z loke`: beach: It's not morning. It's past midnight already
2016-02-19T17:04:10Z beach: moore33: Thanks.  Yes, otherwise I wouldn't get anything done.
2016-02-19T17:04:21Z beach: loke`: Not you too!
2016-02-19T17:05:03Z loke`: Yes me too. You'd better learn what timezone to live in
2016-02-19T17:05:13Z beach: I know that already.
2016-02-19T17:05:18Z beach: Or roughly so.
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2016-02-19T17:06:41Z beach: OK, after some thinking, I think I have decided to use an Earley parser both for LOOP clauses and for lambda lists.
2016-02-19T17:06:55Z beach: That decision might still change, but it is looking good so far.
2016-02-19T17:08:11Z beach: Currently, for LOOP, I am using my own combinator parsing framework, but it does not allow backtracking, which is a problem for modularity, because one has to be careful with clause ordering.
2016-02-19T17:08:32Z beach: Now, there is a cl-parser-combinators system available in Quicklisp.
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2016-02-19T17:08:43Z drmeister: Hello.
2016-02-19T17:08:51Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2016-02-19T17:09:03Z drmeister: ELS paper is pretty much done.  One more round of editing and I'll upload it.
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2016-02-19T17:09:33Z beach: But it has the quality that I absolutely detest, namely, it refers to a similar library written in some other language, and the documentation is such that one has to know that other library and language already.
2016-02-19T17:09:56Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations.
2016-02-19T17:11:20Z beach: So initially, I thought I would improve cl-parser-combinators, or perhaps just the documentation.  But then I thought that a better Earley parsing framework would be useful.  There is one already, but I am planning to make this one more flexible.
2016-02-19T17:11:22Z drmeister: beach: I'll open the repository in a few days once I have time to attach the copyright notices.   That's all I need to do - right?  Submit paper, open repo for inspection.
2016-02-19T17:12:01Z beach: drmeister: I would think so yes.
2016-02-19T17:12:06Z loke`: beach: I find cl-yacc to be quite useful. I implemented my template language with it
2016-02-19T17:12:15Z drmeister: Ok, thanks - just checking.
2016-02-19T17:13:04Z beach: loke`: I don't want to have any restrictions such as LALR(k) or whatever.
2016-02-19T17:13:11Z beach: But thanks for the advice.
2016-02-19T17:15:18Z beach: One major reason for thinking of combinators parsing and Early parsing is that they do not have such restrictions, and they are naturally modular.
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2016-02-19T17:22:59Z loke`: Anyone have a solution for the SB-ASSEM problem with SBCL and SLIME?
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2016-02-19T17:24:30Z jasom: beach: did you look at smug?
2016-02-19T17:25:03Z beach: I did not.
2016-02-19T17:25:05Z beach: What is it?
2016-02-19T17:25:16Z jasom: beach: a parser combinator library
2016-02-19T17:25:24Z beach: Oh, another one?
2016-02-19T17:25:29Z beach: I'll have a look.  Thanks.
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2016-02-19T17:25:33Z jasom: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/smug.org
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2016-02-19T17:26:50Z beach: Thanks!
2016-02-19T17:27:31Z jasom: also, there is a monadic parser hidden within esrap, but esrap only parses strings, and I'm assuming you'll want to parse lisp forms rather than strings
2016-02-19T17:27:43Z beach: Right.
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2016-02-19T17:30:10Z PuercoPop: there is also https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-parser, but it is not documented and it seems abandoned. Anyone has experience with it?
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2016-02-19T17:34:09Z beach: jasom: The documentation looks much better than that of cl-parser-combinators.
2016-02-19T17:34:11Z beach: Thanks again.
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2016-02-19T17:51:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I've found smug really nice
2016-02-19T17:51:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: fwiw
2016-02-19T17:52:51Z beach: Good to know.
2016-02-19T17:53:13Z beach: Dinner.  Got to go.
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2016-02-19T17:56:03Z nzambe: can anyone care to share the difference between esrap and smug from usage point?
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2016-02-19T17:59:31Z jasom: nzambe: they are mostly completely different
2016-02-19T17:59:54Z jasom: smug uses monadic parser combinators, esrap uses packrat style parsing expressions
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2016-02-19T18:02:51Z jasom: nzambe: a big difference is that esrap cannot describe ambiguous grammars
2016-02-19T18:03:04Z p_l: what about esrap-liquid?
2016-02-19T18:03:06Z jasom: that is you will always either get a parse-tre, or fail with esrap, but smug can produce a parse forest
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2016-02-19T18:04:43Z jasom: also, as I said before esrap can only parse strings, but smug is generic; this is good if you want to use a separate tokenizer
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2016-02-19T18:06:12Z jasom: I hadn't seen it before, but it looks like esrap-liquid adds the ability to parse non-string sources, as well as specific forms of context-sensitive grammars that cannot be described with PEGs
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2016-02-19T18:12:09Z dilated_dinosaur: hi everybody: question, what is the macro that is like macrolet but interns its symbols in another package (ie. for making DSLs)?
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2016-02-19T18:14:23Z |3b|: macros don't intern anything
2016-02-19T18:14:28Z |3b|: READ does and INTERN does
2016-02-19T18:14:40Z |3b|: both of which can intern things into arbitrary packages
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2016-02-19T18:15:55Z dilated_dinosaur: macrolet will define mini macros that are only accessible in the context of its &body
2016-02-19T18:16:26Z dilated_dinosaur: you could, in package A, invoke a macro from package B that itself has a macrolet.
2016-02-19T18:17:04Z dilated_dinosaur: unless i am careful, all the 'macrolet'ing mini-macros in package B are 'interned' in package B context
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2016-02-19T18:17:39Z dilated_dinosaur: and i have to (intern "SYMBOL" *package*) all the macro-let jobbies or it doesn't work smoothely
2016-02-19T18:17:55Z dilated_dinosaur: was wandering what the proper CL way of doing this would be
2016-02-19T18:18:15Z |3b|: creating symbols from inside a macro is sometimes considered bad form, partially due to reasons like that
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2016-02-19T18:19:11Z |3b|: the more recent/preferred method is to just pass in all the symbols as arguments. compare the newer defclass which uses that style to defstruct, which creates symbols
2016-02-19T18:20:17Z dilated_dinosaur: hmm okay. i guess that may work. but it makes for a bit ugly DSL, asthetically speaking
2016-02-19T18:20:51Z |3b|: yeah, for DSL it is sometimes worth putting more effort into dealing with the problems
2016-02-19T18:21:40Z |3b|: probably easier to give advice with a more concrete example
2016-02-19T18:22:10Z |3b| has to go afk for a while though
2016-02-19T18:22:43Z dilated_dinosaur: okay. thanks for the advice ;)
2016-02-19T18:24:31Z dilated_dinosaur: anyhoot. if anyone else wants to see what i am trying to do see https://github.com/ivankocienski/lspec/blob/master/src/test.lisp
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2016-02-19T18:25:10Z dilated_dinosaur: where i'd like to export (specify) and none of the other stuff
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2016-02-27T21:47:34Z reepca`: I'm so confused... I can't change back to reepca because it's in use, but I'm not using it...?
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2016-02-27T21:47:51Z fewdea: reepca, you are using ...
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2016-02-27T21:48:00Z fewdea: it*
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2016-02-27T21:48:14Z fewdea: oh, i didn't see the `
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2016-02-27T21:48:44Z fewdea: reepca`, use /nickserv ghost reepca PASSWORD
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2016-02-27T21:50:17Z reepca: got it, thanks
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2016-02-27T22:00:17Z kenanb: Shinmera: yep, somehow dump core screwed it up
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2016-02-27T22:00:23Z Shinmera: kenanb: :(
2016-02-27T22:00:42Z Shinmera: kenanb: There's some ideas I have for this, but I'd have to test it
2016-02-27T22:00:51Z Shinmera: and right now I'm watching awful movies with my pals, so I can't go coding
2016-02-27T22:01:04Z kenanb: Shinmera: I mean it screwed up the whole qt layer, I haven't tried if it works without dumping core yet
2016-02-27T22:01:07Z kenanb: will do now
2016-02-27T22:01:28Z Shinmera: Yes, I understood.
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2016-02-27T22:02:25Z kenanb: Shinmera: yees it works without core dumping :)
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2016-02-27T22:03:13Z kenanb: Shinmera: ah, enjoy!
2016-02-27T22:03:21Z Shinmera: kenanb: what you can try to do is resetting the smoke modules and reloading them
2016-02-27T22:03:25Z Shinmera: after loading from core dump
2016-02-27T22:03:45Z Shinmera: I forget where the code snippet is for that, but it's somewhere. Maybe in generate.lisp
2016-02-27T22:03:54Z kenanb: kk will try
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2016-02-27T22:10:04Z fewdea: hello, does anyone know how I might add functionality to a long-running lisp so I can control it from a remote repl?
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2016-02-27T22:10:17Z fewdea: or at least where to start looking?
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2016-02-27T22:11:38Z ralt: fewdea: you can start a swank server in it
2016-02-27T22:11:40Z jason_m: fewdea: Are you looking for this, or something different? https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html
2016-02-27T22:13:44Z fewdea: interesting, I was under the impression that swank was specific to slime
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2016-02-27T22:28:07Z fewdea: jason_m, I'm currently doing the screen thing right now, but thinking ahead to the future, if I'm running multiple application servers, this wouldn't be practical
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2016-02-27T22:28:44Z jason_m: fewdea: How do you do your development normally?  Do you use emacs/slime?
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2016-02-27T22:45:56Z Baggers: hi folks, I am trying out ecl and am confused with difference between sbcl/ccl & ecl regarding declaring types of variables holding functions. This shows the error I am getting: https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/fd1813b927f40ca50777#file-ecl-type-issue-lisp I'm using ECL 13.5.1
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2016-02-27T22:47:34Z Baggers: could anyone shed some light on why ecl says that `x` is unbound?
2016-02-27T22:47:50Z Bicyclid1ne: Baggers: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/48 maybe this?
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2016-02-27T22:48:17Z Bicyclidine: Baggers: what it probably means is that the declaration is a free declaration, rather than pertaining to the whole binding of x.
2016-02-27T22:48:18Z Bicyclidine: Baggers: you can just do (let ((x #'identity)) (declare (type function x)) ...), don't need a locally. that will make it a bound declaration.
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2016-02-27T22:54:41Z Baggers: Bicyclidine: ah 'free declaration' was what I needed to google, cheers. It doesnt appear to cause any other issues (other than the warning) so I guess I ignore this for now.
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2016-02-27T23:11:15Z fewdea: |3b|, right, so my remote lisp has to run inside emacs?
2016-02-27T23:11:18Z |3b|: (or if you want, run emacs in a terminal on the remote machine, and run slime there)
2016-02-27T23:11:24Z |3b|: no
2016-02-27T23:11:30Z |3b|: you just start the swank server manually
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2016-02-27T23:12:09Z |3b| usually runs the lisp in screen so i can start it from there if i need to, or you could leave it running all the time, or arrange some other method of starting it
2016-02-27T23:12:24Z jason_m: fewdea: my typical use case is to ssh into the remote machine, start up lisp in a screen session, and manually start the swank server as |3b| indicates
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2016-02-27T23:12:56Z jason_m: then i connect slime to the remote swank server, load my systems and i'm off
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2016-02-27T23:13:40Z fewdea: that sounds reasonable, but the one part I still don't understand is the "start swank" part. Do I start it from within my project as a dependency? if not, how is swank able to connect to my running image?
2016-02-27T23:14:00Z |3b|: swank is the CL part that runs in the image
2016-02-27T23:14:14Z |3b|: you can build it into the image, or load it on demand
2016-02-27T23:14:39Z fewdea: oooh i see now. REPL -> load swank -> load project -> export image ..?
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2016-02-27T23:15:30Z |3b| probably wouldn't make it a dependency of the actual application, but maybe part of a 'deployment' thing that depends on the app, swank, anything else you need for deployment but not normal development
2016-02-27T23:15:33Z jason_m: i would say more like remote repl -> load swank; local emacs -> connect to remote swank -> do stuff
2016-02-27T23:15:42Z |3b|: or just add it as part of your build script
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2016-02-27T23:17:21Z fewdea: |3b|, if you load swank on its own, do you just pull a copy of the swank-client.lisp out of slime?
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2016-02-27T23:17:24Z |3b|: on the other hand, there is the argument that you shouldn't be interacting with your servers once they are deployed, and should be debugging with logging and letting them automatically restart when they fail
2016-02-27T23:17:46Z |3b| would just put the whole slime dir there rather than trying to extract specific parts
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2016-02-27T23:18:13Z |3b|: and you want the swank server anyway, not sure what swank-client.lisp is
2016-02-27T23:19:01Z ralt: |3b|: NASA wouldn't have been able to fix their software if they thought like you!
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2016-02-27T23:19:14Z jason_m: I have a lisp image running on a raspberry pi, i installed quicklisp on it, and load swank from the installed slime under quicklisp
2016-02-27T23:19:37Z |3b|: ralt: sure, space ships are a different category from most servers :)
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2016-02-27T23:19:55Z ralt: hehe
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2016-02-27T23:20:36Z |3b|: but then you probably wouldn't be putting a big pile of 3rd-party underspecified/undertested code like swank on a spaceship either
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2016-02-27T23:23:13Z fewdea: swank-loader.lisp is that standalone server?
2016-02-27T23:24:44Z kenanb: Baggers: ASDF itself had that functionality.
2016-02-27T23:25:00Z kenanb: Baggers: I think asdf:clear-system ?
2016-02-27T23:25:50Z kenanb: Baggers: also load-system had force keyword IIRC
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2016-02-27T23:27:14Z Baggers: kenanb: wonderful, that's ideal
2016-02-27T23:27:31Z jason_m: fewdea: correct, you'll need to (load ...) that on the remote lisp
2016-02-27T23:28:18Z fewdea: delightful, I'll give that a try
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2016-02-27T23:30:00Z Baggers: kenanb: and your memory is spot on regarding the force keyword. Thanks again
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2016-02-27T23:31:31Z kenanb: Baggers: you're welcome. :)
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2016-02-27T23:32:39Z jason_m: kenanb: I didn't know about clear-system, if i need to do that i manually delete things out of ~/.cache/common-lisp... I imagine clear-system does the same thing?  That's handy!
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2016-02-27T23:46:07Z kenanb: jason_m: yep
2016-02-27T23:46:53Z kenanb: actually you can even force all dependencies to be recompiled with the load-system keyword :force :all
2016-02-27T23:47:04Z kenanb: asdf is nice
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2016-02-28T00:56:45Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308403
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2016-02-28T00:58:47Z aeth: Is there any difference in how numbers are handled between Scheme and Common Lisp?
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2016-02-28T01:07:40Z aeth: The first difference I found is that in Scheme, (complex? 10) is true and in Lisp (complexp 10) is nil.
2016-02-28T01:07:43Z pjb: aeth: definitely.
2016-02-28T01:08:12Z oleo: try 10.
2016-02-28T01:08:22Z pjb: 10. is read as an integer.
2016-02-28T01:08:38Z oleo: then why the point ?
2016-02-28T01:08:41Z pjb: (complexp #c(1 0)) #| --> nil |#
2016-02-28T01:08:52Z pjb: to specify base ten.
2016-02-28T01:08:52Z pjb: It's a decimal point.
2016-02-28T01:09:44Z oleo: ah, it's a float not complex .....meh it's getting late here.... anyway thank you :)
2016-02-28T01:09:51Z pjb: (setf *read-base* 12.) #| --> 12 |# (list 10. 10) --> (10 12)
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2016-02-28T01:10:08Z pjb: It's not a float, it's an integer!
2016-02-28T01:10:14Z aeth: I thought it was a radix point?
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2016-02-28T01:10:16Z pjb: (type-of 10.) #| --> (integer 0 1152921504606846975) |#
2016-02-28T01:10:23Z oleo: ooo
2016-02-28T01:10:32Z oleo: ok
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2016-02-28T01:11:50Z pjb: oleo: notice that it would be a good idea to write all your integer literals (apart from 0 and 1) with a suffix dot, if you don't want your program to break when loaded with a different *read-base*.
2016-02-28T01:12:10Z oleo: ok, have to bear that in mind
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2016-02-28T01:12:37Z oleo: good night all!
2016-02-28T01:12:43Z pjb: Good night!
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2016-02-28T01:17:06Z |3b|: if you don't care if it breaks when loaded with a different *read-base*, it is probably better to leave them off though :)
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2016-02-28T01:17:59Z pjb: In any case, it's advised to avoid having literal integers other than 0 and 1 in programs :-)
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2016-02-28T01:21:34Z aeth: I think that's general programming advice, anyway. If you have "magic numbers" you're supposed to make them constants iirc.
2016-02-28T01:22:05Z aeth: i.e. only 0 and 1 should be in the main part of a program
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2016-02-28T01:23:16Z aeth: I violate that rule repeatedly in my game engine, but it's all going to be rewritten eventually anyway. :P
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2016-02-28T01:30:50Z fewdea: anyone know about asdf debugging? it says it's missing a dependency for my system that's totally there.
2016-02-28T01:34:38Z |3b| 's random guess is wrong name, make sure it matches what is in the defsystem for that dependency, rather than package name or directory name
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2016-02-28T01:35:15Z |3b|: alternately, it doesn't know to look 'there'
2016-02-28T01:36:39Z fewdea: i feel you, i thought the same, but i've gone and copy-pasted the paths and such to make sure it's looking for the same thing. the other components in the same folder are found before the missing one. i'll keep digging
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2016-02-28T01:57:15Z Xach_: fewdea: did you figure it out?
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2016-02-28T01:57:29Z fewdea: no, it's driving me bonkers.
2016-02-28T01:57:35Z Xach_: fewdea: what is the system name?
2016-02-28T01:57:46Z fewdea: :pr0nage
2016-02-28T01:57:55Z Xach_: fewdea: the file is named pr0nage.asd?
2016-02-28T01:57:56Z fewdea: it's a thing i'm making
2016-02-28T01:57:58Z fewdea: yes
2016-02-28T01:58:18Z Xach_: fewdea: what does the asdf:defsystem form look like? can you paste it to e.g. paste.lisp.org?
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2016-02-28T01:58:39Z fewdea: i've even commented out the line that is calling the mysteriously missing file and it's still saying it's missing. something is afoot
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2016-02-28T01:59:12Z fewdea: i lied, i did not comment out that line
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2016-02-28T01:59:34Z Xach_: i would love to see the asdf:defsystem form and the error message if you have the chance.
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2016-02-28T02:01:21Z fewdea: i can show you, but i'll give some background. i started a new branch today with some sweeping changes. I've added a file to each of three directories, all with the same name, and asdf can't find any of them, and they're all there. one moment, i'll pull up the paste bin
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2016-02-28T02:07:11Z fewdea: Xach_, paste.lisp.org/display/308406
2016-02-28T02:07:30Z fewdea: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308406 **
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2016-02-28T02:10:49Z |3b| isn't sure about putting paths in the :file names, stuff i've seen has a :module for each directory, and just does dependencies within that
2016-02-28T02:11:18Z |3b| mostly just uses :serial t as well
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2016-02-28T02:16:48Z fewdea: what does :serial t do?
2016-02-28T02:17:03Z Xach_: fewdea: earlier files are prerequisites of later files
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2016-02-28T02:17:08Z |3b|: loads them in order, as if each depended on all the preceding files
2016-02-28T02:17:12Z Xach_: all earlier files
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2016-02-28T02:18:52Z fewdea: i was under the impression that it was asdf's function to load things in the proper order, despite when they are named in defsystem?
2016-02-28T02:19:16Z Xach_: fewdea: anyway, for your file, anything that appears in a :depends-on for a :file must also have a corresponding :file entry. i don't see one for view/action-item-status-type.
2016-02-28T02:19:46Z fewdea: oh. yeah, that'll do it
2016-02-28T02:19:50Z |3b|: sure, but if you order them manually, that is "proper", and :serial t is the way to tell it you did so
2016-02-28T02:19:55Z Xach_: fewdea: asdf will follow your :depends-on directions and that can be used to minimize recompiling and reloading. i find it to be too much work most of the time.
2016-02-28T02:20:18Z Xach_: :serial t makes the environment do unnecessary work sometimes but i prefer the environment to do it instead of me.
2016-02-28T02:20:32Z |3b|: and usually less likely to miss a dependency that way, and it you do, asdf won't happen to pick an order that 'works' now but maybe not later
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2016-02-28T02:20:56Z |3b|: *and if
2016-02-28T02:21:52Z fewdea: oh, so you're saying I need to use :serial t in order for asdf to load them in the correct order? otherwise I need to define them in the correct order?
2016-02-28T02:22:08Z Zhivago: The proper order is a topological sort.
2016-02-28T02:22:24Z |3b|: no, :serial t tells asdf that you sorted them for it
2016-02-28T02:22:33Z fewdea: oh, i gotcha
2016-02-28T02:22:35Z Zhivago: :serial t is a lazy way to express a set of linear dependencies, iirc.
2016-02-28T02:22:47Z |3b|: if you don't need :serial t, you need to specify all the interfile dependencied manually
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2016-02-28T02:22:56Z |3b|: *if you don't set :serial t
2016-02-28T02:23:17Z fewdea: thanks Xach_ I would never have realized I forgot to :file those files
2016-02-28T02:23:18Z |3b| must be getting too cold to type
2016-02-28T02:24:13Z fewdea: out of curiosity what happens if you hand asdf a circular dependency? i've not tried, but always a bit interested
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2016-02-28T02:25:08Z kenanb: fewdea: actually the error is pretty much saying that very clearly
2016-02-28T02:25:18Z kenanb:   Component "view/action-item-status-type" not found, required by #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "pr0nage" "view/action-item">
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2016-02-28T02:26:30Z fewdea: lol indeed it was, but I was thinking more along the lines of the filesystem and not the asdf system
2016-02-28T02:26:31Z kenanb: for something to be a component it should be defined as a component in components argument of your defsystem :)
2016-02-28T02:27:32Z fewdea: who would have guessed it doesn't work if you don't use it right :P
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2016-02-28T02:29:13Z kenanb: if it cannot find the actual source file, the message will look more like it is directly related to a source file: "Failed to find the TRUENAME of /home/foo/bar/baz.lisp: No such file or directory"
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2016-02-28T02:31:08Z fewdea: and the level of certainty in my brain that it couldn't find the file... i was practically yelling at asdf "it's RIGHT. THERE!" lol
2016-02-28T02:31:30Z fewdea: but it kept saying "dude, it's not there. promise" ... i'm so stubborn sometimes
2016-02-28T02:31:49Z fiddlerwoaroof strace will tell you what files a program is looking for
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2016-02-28T02:32:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: oops shouldn't have used /me there
2016-02-28T02:32:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you do something like "strace -p `pidof sbcl` -ff -e file" before loading the system, you could verify such assumptions.
2016-02-28T02:33:15Z fewdea: oh, that's a good idea too. i didn't even consider using strace. kept wondering how to turn on asdf debugging
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2016-02-28T02:33:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use strace and dtrace quite a bit if things seem to behave unexpectedly.
2016-02-28T02:34:07Z fewdea: i'm a linux admin by trade, i'm ashamed i didn't try that
2016-02-28T02:34:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's especially useful when trying to figure out why your program can't find a .so
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2016-02-28T02:35:53Z fewdea: speaking of .so files... i was reading about uiop today. I can use standard c libs in my lisp code??
2016-02-28T02:36:13Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: it is great advice in general but why on earth would I debug asdf defsystem loading with strace
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2016-02-28T02:37:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: kenanb: sometimes it's the quickest way to see what's going on?
2016-02-28T02:38:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially if you're unfamiliar with ASDF's internals
2016-02-28T02:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: fewdea: there's cffi which can be used to interoperate with C libraries.
2016-02-28T02:40:03Z kenanb: 99% of the time reading the error message, checking backtrace entries will be enough, as long as you are not trying to debug an FFI, using strace is overkill IMHO
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2016-02-28T02:41:07Z fewdea: oh yeah, cffi is what I meant. that's really cool. i remember years ago when I first heard about lisp. i said to myself "list processing? that's dumb. who cares about lists?" now, i'm continually impressed at all the things it can do. it's just my style.
2016-02-28T02:41:40Z Zhivago: It would have been better if they'd started with sequence processing, but it was the dark ages.
2016-02-28T02:42:23Z John[Lisbeth]: did you know lisp was named after LISt Processing?
2016-02-28T02:42:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: kenanb: strace is kinda my hammer. . .
2016-02-28T02:43:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: So I frequently reach for it, if I feel stumped to pound the problem into shape.
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2016-02-28T02:44:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, with dtrace, it's kinda cool to trace the complete flow graph of a php application every once in a while.
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2016-02-28T02:45:23Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, as I said, it is a great tool. But one of the selling points of lisp is that it has a very nice condition handling system, interactive debugging etc, so suggesting strace when asdf couldn't find a file is kind of horrific :D
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2016-02-28T02:45:56Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: not that it wouldn't be useful in other contexts
2016-02-28T02:46:05Z fewdea: i'm sorry you have to deal with PHP fiddlerwoaroof, i was a php dev for 15+ years. it was pretty much my only language during that time besides bash. i've learned 3 new languages in the past year though, lisp being my favorite.
2016-02-28T02:46:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: fewdea: yeah, PHP pays the bills these days . . . I'd much rather be using Haskell or Lisp
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2016-02-28T02:47:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm kinda interested in Rust now, because it looks like it has potential to be a less-bad mainstream language.
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2016-02-28T02:49:55Z kenanb: Zhivago: you mean like APL or something?
2016-02-28T02:49:59Z Zhivago: What in particular about it?
2016-02-28T02:50:00Z Zhivago: The resource management?
2016-02-28T02:50:22Z fewdea: and it's really not so bad once you get to know all its idiosyncrasies
2016-02-28T02:50:32Z kenanb: Zhivago: you said sequence processing, I am trying to understand what you mean by that
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2016-02-28T02:51:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Zhivago: well, from my limited experience, it seems fairly well suited to expressing intent with a minimum of boilerplate.
2016-02-28T02:51:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, they claim to have a "macro system", which piques my interest.
2016-02-28T02:52:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I've barely written more than a "Hello World" application at this point, because I've been too busy with Lisp projects)
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2016-02-28T03:37:31Z fiddlerwoaroof wishes there was a tool that would watch the files referred to in a system and automatically update the system in various ways...
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2016-02-28T03:42:04Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: in what various ways?
2016-02-28T03:42:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like, automatically exporting slots if the class is exported
2016-02-28T03:42:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (oops, thinking of package.lisp there)
2016-02-28T03:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like automatically updating dependencies if I refer to a new system in a file.
2016-02-28T03:44:14Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: but how would that work out, you never refer to "systems" in source files
2016-02-28T03:44:38Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: you refer to packages, which may or may not correspond to a system
2016-02-28T03:45:18Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: actually asdf has package-inferred-system which checks the defpackage form in the source file and automatically depend on the necessary systems
2016-02-28T03:46:29Z kenanb: and if the package name doesn't correspond to a system name directly, you can asdf:register-system-packages for the ones that you want inferred.
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2016-02-28T03:50:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: kenanb: I like having the dependencies spelled out in the source file.  It just frustrating when you restart SBCL and try loading your system, only to discover that you forgot to update.
2016-02-28T03:50:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: the .asd
2016-02-28T03:51:13Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: so basically what you want exists in ASDF, but you can't expect such thing to completely automate the process, nor you can expect it to be the norm, becase while it is convenient, it is prone to errors
2016-02-28T03:51:32Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: then just use package-inferred-system.
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2016-02-28T03:58:34Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: as before, you'll need a main system that :depends-on your files instead of stating them as :components, because systems will be inferred from packages defined in each source file. So if a package in source :use's X or :import-from X, X will be inferred as a system dependency by ASDF
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2016-02-28T04:09:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: kenanb: yeah, alot of the things I'd like can't be effectively automated.
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2016-02-28T04:11:07Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, but still, go on, test package-inferred-system, it is really close to what you want
2016-02-28T04:11:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, couldn't you just use an :around method for load-op (or whatever the appropriate method is) to detect the changes to the package list and then update things "on the fly"?
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2016-02-28T04:12:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I basically only ever :use cl, anaphora, alexandria and a couple other utility packages., but I'll give it a whirl.
2016-02-28T04:13:38Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: I am not sure I get what you are trying to achieve
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2016-02-28T04:14:48Z kenanb: fiddlerwoaroof: was the original idea to grab whatever package reference in the sources and use them as dependencies, or was it to read the package forms and grab the deps from there?
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2016-02-28T04:20:42Z kenanb: if it was the former I don't know if anybody did that, if it was the latter, it already exists.
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2016-02-28T04:30:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: kenanb: I'm more thinking about facilitating my workflow.
2016-02-28T04:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I will often code some, then switch to the repl, quickload a system or two and experiment with them to see if they have the functionality I need.
2016-02-28T04:30:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then I'll switch back to the buffer and code the solution to the problem I had
2016-02-28T04:31:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes, though, I'll forget to update the :depends-on section of my system definition.
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2016-02-28T04:33:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you set up an :around method on whatever ASDF uses to load the systems, you could tie package names to system names by diffing the list of loaded packages.
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2016-02-28T04:33:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then a worker thread could run through all the files a system referred to and make sure that all the packages refer to a system listed in the :depends-on section.
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2016-02-28T05:21:12Z drmeister: (sigh)
2016-02-28T05:21:32Z drmeister: What's the FORMAT spell to print a list as 1.2.3.4 (no last .)
2016-02-28T05:21:47Z drmeister: Something like (format t "~{~a.~}" '(1 2 3 4))
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2016-02-28T05:23:16Z drmeister: Got it:  (format t "~{~a~^.~}" '(1 2 3 4))
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2016-02-28T05:54:56Z Zhivago: By sequence processing, I mean abstract sequences rather than concrete linked lists.
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2016-02-28T07:11:50Z DeadTrickster still has fixed rate electricity too :-)
2016-02-28T07:12:06Z DeadTrickster: morning guys
2016-02-28T07:12:55Z _z: Morning :)
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2016-02-28T09:06:46Z aeth: Can threads set different parts of the same array without causing problems or do I actually need to write code to handle this?
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2016-02-28T09:07:42Z Zhivago: Unfortunatel CL cannot answer that question -- you'll need to refer to your implementation.
2016-02-28T09:08:12Z aeth: What I do is thread 0 only ever sets to index 0, thread 1 only ever sets to index 1, etc., and then when they're all finished I reduce the result since the work splits up fairly easily.
2016-02-28T09:08:38Z aeth: Zhivago: bordeaux-threads, then? I know it's not part of the standard...
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2016-02-28T09:10:43Z aeth: (Threads and unicode should be enough of a reason for a newer CL standard imo.)
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2016-02-28T10:01:54Z loke`: Hello Lisp
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2016-02-28T10:12:57Z easye: Heya Loke.  Mebbe everyone is sleeping off writing ELS 2016 papers..
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2016-02-28T10:16:29Z loke`: easye: I'd hope
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2016-02-28T10:50:31Z flip214: aeth: if you use some basic synchronization primitive (a semaphore, lock, etc.) to get some kind of memory barrier, this should work fine.
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2016-02-28T10:50:52Z flip214: Can't guess of any reason why concurrent access to a pre-allocated array should make problems.
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2016-02-28T11:19:08Z francogrex: hi I have tried this: (with-open-file (strout "test" :element-type 'unsigned-byte :external-format :utf-8 :direction :output) (write-byte 192 strout))
2016-02-28T11:19:47Z francogrex: and then (with-open-file (in "test" :element-type 'character) (read-char in nil)) => :UTF-8 stream decoding error on ... the octet sequence #(192) cannot be decoded.
2016-02-28T11:19:59Z francogrex: why? it is utf-8
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2016-02-28T11:20:29Z Zhivago: Really?
2016-02-28T11:20:49Z francogrex: not?
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2016-02-28T11:22:08Z Zhivago: (format t "~B" 192)
2016-02-28T11:22:42Z Zhivago: What does it mean when the two most significant bits of an octet are set, in utf-8?
2016-02-28T11:23:19Z francogrex: 11000000
2016-02-28T11:23:59Z francogrex: 192 is #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_A_WITH_GRAVE
2016-02-28T11:24:09Z Zhivago: > What does it mean when the two most significant bits of an octet are set, in utf-8?
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2016-02-28T11:28:59Z francogrex: multi-byte codepoint
2016-02-28T11:29:31Z Zhivago: Do you understand your error now?
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2016-02-28T11:31:38Z francogrex: yes the error - but still confused as to how can I read that file in terms of characters (it's a french letter) ?
2016-02-28T11:31:58Z Zhivago: Presumably it contains well formed utf-8.
2016-02-28T11:32:04Z francogrex: i can read it in byte but that sucks
2016-02-28T11:32:23Z Zhivago: Or, perhaps you're not reading it in utf-8.
2016-02-28T11:36:24Z Howling: I think read it in as a byte. You are writing it as a byte in any case
2016-02-28T11:36:29Z pareidolia: I've got this peculiar thing, a simple javascript expression "(jd - 2451545.0)/36525.0" evaluated in SBCL differs from the 6th significant digit
2016-02-28T11:42:24Z edgar-rft: pareidolia: In CL the default *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* is 'single-float
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2016-02-28T11:43:45Z francogrex: when I write it like that (with-open-file (strout "test" :element-type 'character :external-format :utf-8 :direction :output) (write-char (code-char 192) strout)) no problem I can read it and file -i test shows that it is indeed utf-8
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2016-02-28T11:46:03Z francogrex: but I understand what is happening now
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2016-02-28T11:49:15Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/308427 messing up
2016-02-28T11:49:15Z francogrex: me messing up
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2016-02-28T11:59:47Z edgar-rft: francogrex: #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_A_WITH_GRAVE is encoded in UTF-8 as the two decimal bytes 195 and 128
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2016-02-28T12:44:01Z pareidolia: edgar-rft: Can I set this value specifically for a certain package?
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2016-02-28T14:35:44Z sigjuice: are there other dists besides "quicklisp"?
2016-02-28T14:35:58Z Shinmera: If you add them, sure.
2016-02-28T14:36:10Z papachan: pjb: hi
2016-02-28T14:37:10Z DeadTrickster: any portable lib for collection metrics? like execution time, cpu etc?
2016-02-28T14:37:19Z pjb: hi!
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2016-02-28T14:38:24Z pjb: DeadTrickster: there's slime sprof M-x slime-profile-package etc.
2016-02-28T14:40:00Z pjb: DeadTrickster: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:chrono-run-time com.informatimago.clmisc.resource-utilization:reporting-sru etc
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2016-02-28T14:42:54Z sigjuice: Shinmera: where can I find out what other dists are available to add?
2016-02-28T14:43:13Z Lord_Nightmare: one issue i'm having with lisp is a lot of libraries are under the gpl or lgpl, which are incompatible with the sort of commercial use i need what i'm working on to be usable for eventually. (the lgpl is incompatible with iOS since it is required to be able to replace lgpl libraries with your own, and that is impossible with a system which uses signed binaries). is there a good set of lisp libraries which are under a more permissive
2016-02-28T14:43:13Z Lord_Nightmare: license such as mit/bsd?
2016-02-28T14:43:59Z Shinmera: sigjuice: By attaining omniscience, or meeting people that host one.
2016-02-28T14:44:20Z Shinmera: sigjuice: I host a dist, but other than that I don't know of any that are public.
2016-02-28T14:44:39Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: for commercial use, you can always hire those lispers!  I'll be available in 5 months.
2016-02-28T14:44:44Z DeadTrickster: I think fukamachi hosts one to
2016-02-28T14:44:50Z DeadTrickster: lol
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2016-02-28T14:45:17Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: L/GPL seems to be the more rare case in Lisp, actually.
2016-02-28T14:45:21Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: it's not impossible to replace libraries in iOS if you provide the sources ;-)
2016-02-28T14:46:08Z Lord_Nightmare: pjb: apple has some bizarre restrictions against sideloading to bypass the app store. f.lux tried it and not only got banned from the app store, but apple re-implemented their own competition to f.lux into ios 9.2
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2016-02-28T14:46:27Z Lord_Nightmare: so that's a can of worms i really don't want to open
2016-02-28T14:46:42Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: the big dichotomy implied by the AppStore is actually between devopers and users.
2016-02-28T14:47:20Z DeadTrickster: pjb, can you give me link to those informatimago libs?
2016-02-28T14:48:57Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: a developer (and nowadays, that means anybody able to create a $free developper account and download Xcode), can always compile and install whatever software he wants on iOS.  Just not distribute thru the AppStore (and not really distribute it in any other way, even if he can give access to his executable to less than 2000 testers, or distribute it thru an intranet server).
2016-02-28T14:49:27Z pjb: DeadTrickster: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago
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2016-02-28T14:50:33Z DeadTrickster: pjb, thx
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2016-02-28T14:51:30Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: so granted, Apple restrictions go against one of the GNU freedoms: the one that says that programmers should be free to help users by providing them with custom patches.  But it's nothing new that big corporations are against freedoms, even when those freedoms are supported by the laws those big corporations asked their politician minions to enact.
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2016-02-28T14:51:40Z pjb: It just shows the nature of those big corporations.
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2016-02-28T14:52:19Z pjb: (or the small ones, Apple was small at a time, but from very early on, they had big banksters and oligarchs on their board; Steve Jobs got what he asked for when he was fired from Apple).
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2016-02-28T14:52:36Z sigjuice: qlalpha is another dist. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2014/01/a-dist-for-testing.html
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2016-02-28T14:54:18Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: but anyways, the point here is that lispers have to pay the corporate taxes too, so you must hire them to get access to their code for commercial products.
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2016-02-28T14:55:05Z pareidolia: Astronomical calculations in Javascript... I won't be digging in that stuff again any time soon
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2016-02-28T14:56:03Z Lord_Nightmare: pjb: understood
2016-02-28T14:56:21Z sigjuice: Shinmera, where is your dist available from? does it have stuff not in the quicklisp dist?
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2016-02-28T14:56:45Z Shinmera: sigjuice: https://github.com/Shirakumo/dist and yes.
2016-02-28T14:57:16Z Lord_Nightmare: for a small company though (or really, a single developer), hiring another developer isn't within the budget I have. So I'm working with what I can within my limited means
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2016-02-28T14:57:48Z DeadTrickster: Lord_Nightmare, why you are using lisp afterall?
2016-02-28T14:58:10Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: consider distributing your software under GPL too.  Often it doesn't prevent making money at all: paying customers don't care what you do with the sources anyways.
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2016-02-28T14:58:32Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: On the other hand you can use my code free of charge. I don't mind.
2016-02-28T14:58:33Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: notice that Apple protects you, by preventing duplicate applications in the AppStore.
2016-02-28T14:59:10Z sigjuice: Shinmera : thanks!
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2016-02-28T15:01:34Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: notice also that the GPL doesn't implies that if you are able to distribute the program thru one channel, a recipient of the GPL sources should be able to distribute a copy thru the same channel.  This is entirely outside of the scope of the GPL.  So your contactual relationship with Apple, when distributing thru the AppStore is not impedimented or doesn't impediment your GPL licensing.
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2016-02-28T15:03:44Z Lord_Nightmare: pjb: this works if you release code as both gpl and separately licensed through the app store; this requires getting all contributors to any gpl code in your product/project to agree to the relicensing for the app store release
2016-02-28T15:03:52Z Lord_Nightmare: at least that is how i understand things
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2016-02-28T15:04:44Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: you might be right. I'd have to check this point.
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2016-02-28T15:08:18Z Lord_Nightmare: This whole idea is just in planning stages, was really "I want to release an app on iOS written almost entirely in lisp", might not be worth it,
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2016-02-28T15:11:11Z pjb: It might be difficult to do.  Perhaps with MoCL.  But MoCL is really early; it would be a lot of work I think to use for a 100% lisp application.
2016-02-28T15:11:34Z pjb: Perhaps if you buy the source license of MoCL and work on it?
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2016-02-28T15:15:07Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: the thing of course is that writing applications on iOS or Android requires using the system OO frameworks, and therefore to write Objective-C/swift or Java code.  Happily those are dynamic OO systems, so some stuff can be done with introspection from other programming languages, but it wouldn't be as easy as if you wrote the UI in those languages (for which tools are provided to help).
2016-02-28T15:15:36Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare:  and the other point is that most of the interesting algorithms are often implemented in the server anyways, so there's very little code to be written in lisp left on those platforms. :-(
2016-02-28T15:16:00Z Howling: Checked the license price and it's quite a bit
2016-02-28T15:16:10Z Lord_Nightmare: this is true. I don't think i've thought this through enough.
2016-02-28T15:17:08Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: What a lot of people do is write a web-app with the iOS "app" being a mere browser shell.
2016-02-28T15:17:17Z Shinmera: And you can happily write web stuff in Lisp
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2016-02-28T15:18:08Z Lord_Nightmare: there's at least 2 or 3 license compatible lisp engines, but the tricky bit will be interfacing that with ios itself
2016-02-28T15:18:34Z Lord_Nightmare: Shinmera: so run a sort of 'local' webserver serving pages, with lisp being the back end, as the gui/interface?
2016-02-28T15:19:03Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: I was more thinking running a remote webserver.
2016-02-28T15:19:06Z fiddlerwoaroof really doesn't like that sort of app
2016-02-28T15:19:20Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Me neither, but we're talking about what's possible here.
2016-02-28T15:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also link in ECL or something and then call into lisp from the UI
2016-02-28T15:20:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, if you don't mind using scheme, I think it would be fairly trivial to link in TinyScheme.
2016-02-28T15:21:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then just write a thin shell in Swift or Objective-C and do the heavy-lifting in a Lisp.
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2016-02-28T15:22:08Z Shinmera: I don't think bundling ECL will be possible for iOS due to Apple forbidding a compiler being shipped in an app.
2016-02-28T15:23:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the restriction is on downloading and executing code.
2016-02-28T15:23:35Z sigjuice: I think plenty of iOS games have a lua interpreter built in
2016-02-28T15:23:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, several apps bundle python (which, granted, is not a compiler)
2016-02-28T15:24:00Z pjb: Lord_Nightmare: currently, ECL can be compiled for Android.  I don't know if anybody has compiled it as a library, libecl.so that could be used thru the NDK yet.  Something similar should be doable for iOS.  It would be nice to invest some time making ECL working nicely on iOS and Android, since it would be the most advanced CL implementation AFAICS running there.
2016-02-28T15:24:27Z pjb: For example, LispWorks doesn't have a 64-bit version yet, which makes it undistributable on the iOS AppStore for now.
2016-02-28T15:24:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4891642/interpreter-for-the-iphone
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2016-02-28T15:24:45Z Shinmera: SBCL runs on android but not under an app due to there not being an sbcl.so and a subprocess being far from a great option.
2016-02-28T15:26:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: ABCL doesn't run on Android, right?
2016-02-28T15:26:17Z Shinmera: No.
2016-02-28T15:27:48Z Lord_Nightmare: so: cmucl/sbcl, and corman lisp are permissive licensed, i could have sworn there was at least one more
2016-02-28T15:28:22Z Lord_Nightmare: also TECHNICALLY the very first version of clisp back when it had 1 author is MIT licensed, but only if you rip gnu libreadline out and use bsdreadline instead
2016-02-28T15:28:37Z Lord_Nightmare: but that's 1993 era code or something
2016-02-28T15:29:29Z Lord_Nightmare: i've yet to see anyone use it as an mit version by using bsdreadline, might make an interesting project...
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2016-02-28T15:34:08Z pjb: Shinmera: on Android, an app can fork out a lisp process to do the work. But on iOS, fork is disabled.
2016-02-28T15:34:49Z Zhivago: Given a name like bs dread line, I can see why.
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2016-02-28T16:27:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: Am I doing something wrong here? http://paste.lisp.org/+6LZV
2016-02-28T16:27:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I use Qtools directly, it works.
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2016-02-28T16:29:13Z Shinmera: What do you mean by "using Qtools directly"?
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2016-02-28T16:30:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, the sample code in the qtools docs works
2016-02-28T16:30:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, qtools-ui works, if I clone from github.
2016-02-28T16:30:39Z Shinmera: If I paste your example into a REPL it works fine for me
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2016-02-28T16:31:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think the quicklisp version is broken.
2016-02-28T16:31:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or, I just haven't updated quicklisp recently enough, maybe)
2016-02-28T16:31:35Z Shinmera: The last commits were end of January, so that should be in latest QL
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2016-02-28T16:38:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, after updating and clearing out the cache, it works
2016-02-28T16:38:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: thansk
2016-02-28T16:38:08Z Shinmera: Cool.
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2016-02-28T17:10:41Z 
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: ccl-logbot hiroaki phoe_krk shka francogrex JuanDaugherty fn2187__ JitanRo malice` zacharias norfumpit asc232 loke` tos-1 Beluki william3 rodolfowtf s00pcan_ heddwch ryan_vw ferada pavelpenev dim wheelsucker wyan pootler_ pchrist PuercoPop hardenedapple Posterdati jeaye gensym cmpitg almih Cthulhux angavrilov_ Lord_of_- reg_ jackc- wilornel_ LiamH karswell` Subfusc farhaven PlasmaStar axion haom Th30n vhost- easye Baggers timrs2991 Guest68838 gendl
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: CEnnis91 gbyers z0d AntiSpamMeta gko gz_ SAL9000 victor_lowther dougk_ lpaste taij33n arrsim fewdea rvirding drmeister sytse sauvin TMM gypsydave5 zaquest papachan chavezgu edgar-rft housel dwchandler j0ni yang ineiros tippenein neuri8 pok rvchangue seg InvalidCo zerac ssake NaNDude Fleurety nydel SHODAN __main__ Ober omilu isoraqathedh quazimodo gingerale keix pseudo_sue zymurgy gravicappa nopf scymtym sjl pjb abunai varjag ggherdov HDurer Nikotiini
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: DeadTrickster futpib oskarth Intensity puchacz gabot whiteline justinmcp roscoe_tw tokik clop2 zyoung vlatkoB_ drot arpunk1 Wizek_ leo_song Bike Warlock_29A shlomo e Shinmera minion Guest925 H4ns smokeink sshirokov oleo trn d4ryus Howling p_l heurist Zhivago nisstyre_ NeverDie sbryant killmaster viaken ahungry schoppenhauer moei hydraz Xach xantoz abbe sigjuice ivan4th kjak watersoul Oddity grublet salv0 Davidbrcz clop John[Lisbeth] aap_ vaporatorius
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: mateuszb redline6561 myrkraverk clog low-profile rhg135 Jesin alandipert ASau phadthai tkd joast bgs100 briankrent shifty GuilOooo eazar001 DrCode lieven MikeSeth flip214 ralt Firedancer eli Riviera zacts dan64 Oladon AeroNotix cromulent vlnx ramus_ zbigniew voidlily loke funnel reb``` tessier bege cmatei dmiles jtz honkfestival billstclair mathrick misv gniourf oystewh stux|RC-only sz0 j_king gigetoo SlashLife cyberlard nhandler pareidolia mordocai xmad
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: Neet lancetw C_Keen oGMo Patzy l1x lxpz el-mikl SilentEcho huitzilopochtli yeltzooo Tristam joga froggey abwabwa ski_ mvilleneuve Zacketh msb whartung sulky Guest44319 apathor spock kini justinabrahms vsync octo peppermachete tclamb tiago ieure_ chu jjgedney davsebamse rtoym em sebboh` finnrobi eagleflo cods jchmrt brandonz TMA trinitr01 quasisane mingus` dsp- ``Erik wizzo renard_ Fade Khisanth theBlackDragon hitecnologys hratsimihah replcated arbscht
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: lemoinem sfa_ _sjs_ mj12`_ Colleen sekrit CompanionCube mnoonan tomaw jself cibs MightyJoe Mandus_ zeroXzero tokenrove cross aries_liuxueyang yauz luis` dlowe Robdgreat snits_ Walex2 copec wglb` ec\ Lord_Nightmare askatasuna baboon`- sellout jostein ThePhoeron phryk_ wooden russell-- _death anunnaki aeth marsjaninzmarsa opus srcerer_ jsnell_ dew3y` Zotan_ mach djh_ MoALTz Meow-J brkr harish DGASAU ft les drwin s00pcan johs kjeldahl john-mcaleely specbot
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: vxxe tobel aerique wolf_mozart ircbrowse drdo swflint jdz faheem NhanH trig-ger XachX splittist |3b| jasom Tordek sid_cypher pjbh xaotuk ozzloy fiddlerwoaroof brucem danieli akkad yvm SaintAardvark dxtr jurov drforr1 joshe musegarden3 alms_clozure danlentz banjiewen shikhin ecraven Blkt fe[nl]ix lispyone haasn kalzz djinni` larme lonjil asedeno tanuzzo GGMethos otwieracz thomas moredhel eMBee forgot troydm mood mrSpec saruta nowhere_man_ arrdem cell
2016-02-28T17:10:41Z names: d4gg4d zickzackv antoszka sakalli jackdaniel cantstanya fluter karbak_ noncom White_Flame myk267 nicdev` agent008 grindhold newcup IPmonger samebchase vert2_ micro_
2016-02-28T17:10:42Z malice`: edgar-rft: Gonna try there then. Thanks for info, loke` !
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2016-02-28T17:11:16Z edgar-rft: francogrex: there is no rule in Common Lisp how integers are implemented internally
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2016-02-28T17:11:49Z loke`: francogrex: Well, it's very easy
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2016-02-28T17:12:36Z loke`: Given a negative number N, you can get the 2's completely version by simply adding (expt 2 B) to it, where B is the number of bits
2016-02-28T17:13:11Z loke`: so just (format t "~b" (+ (expt 2 32) -728))
2016-02-28T17:13:20Z loke`: assuming you want 2's completely
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2016-02-28T17:13:25Z loke`: complement
2016-02-28T17:14:10Z francogrex: yes thanks, indeed 2's complement is what I want
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2016-02-28T17:15:09Z edgar-rft: loke`: that wouldn't work for integers less than -2147483648
2016-02-28T17:15:35Z loke`: edgar-rft: Well, that number doesn't fit in 32 bits.
2016-02-28T17:15:43Z loke`: edgar-rft: So yeah, obviously.
2016-02-28T17:15:50Z edgar-rft: francogrex: see DPB and LDB how to extract bits of integers
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2016-02-28T18:34:07Z jussx: I never thought lisp is so beatiful to learn it to read it to write it
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2016-02-28T18:50:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: malice`: this is a bit late, but I really like qtools...
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2016-02-28T18:50:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/shinmera/qtools-ui
2016-02-28T18:50:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/shinmera/qtools
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2016-02-28T19:47:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: That was odd
2016-02-28T19:47:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I killed sbcl and everything crashed...
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2016-02-28T19:50:17Z pareidolia: I'm doing step debugging with Slime and it's quite annoying that the highest stack frame is folded by default. Can this be changed easily?
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2016-02-28T20:59:08Z heavyside: hey lisp whatusp?
2016-02-28T20:59:16Z heavyside: dem inggers dats whastup
2016-02-28T20:59:18Z heavyside: i kill inggers roll i bill inggers oh i slice dem inggers up until they hop back home
2016-02-28T20:59:21Z heavyside: african inggers, lets put thtme where they belong back in the dirt wherer they ksin is from
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2016-02-28T21:28:10Z kenanb: I have a function to be called, I provide some params automatically, and I expect users to fill some others, user will confirm application when comfortable with params, I am thinking a closure is a natural fit for the description. is it?
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2016-02-28T21:30:30Z aeth: Okay, so this seems to work and I'm just going to ask again (different time zone) to make sure I'm not making a thread mistake (I'm using bordeaux-threads so this should apply to all CLs with threading, hopefully)
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2016-02-28T21:32:00Z aeth: If I am working on a range of numbers in a way that can easily be split into threads, I can just make an array with as many threads, let each thread set to a different spot in the array (in bt:with-held-lock), and then reduce the result, right?
2016-02-28T21:33:01Z aeth: So thread 0 only sets to aref 0, thread 1 to aref 1, etc, and I have a do loop wait for all the threads to be inactive sleeping e.g. 0.01 so it doesn't max out the CPU there
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2016-02-28T21:34:16Z Bike: i would guess it's fine, but i don't think implementations are usually that specific about their semantics
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2016-02-28T21:36:59Z heavyside: FUCKGAUDI
2016-02-28T21:37:05Z heavyside: I AM WARHOL.
2016-02-28T21:37:23Z heavyside: WALT DISNEY OF OUR TIME.
2016-02-28T21:37:33Z heavyside: I AM MICHAEL ANGELO.
2016-02-28T21:37:43Z heavyside: MORE INFLUENTIAL THEN PICCASO
2016-02-28T21:37:46Z heavyside: NIKE
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2016-02-28T21:38:25Z |3b|: aeth: probably don't want many more threads than you have cores, particularly if it doesn't take long to calculate a single value
2016-02-28T21:39:04Z aeth: |3b|: Do you mean only use 4 threads instead of 8 threads on an i7 quad core even though there are 8 threads available?
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2016-02-28T21:39:55Z aeth: Or would 8 threads be okay in that case?
2016-02-28T21:39:55Z Shinmera: aeth: Also beware of false sharing.
2016-02-28T21:41:10Z |3b|: the qualifier "many" was to account for things like hyperthreading,which may or may not help for a given workload
2016-02-28T21:41:32Z aeth: Too bad I don't have this CPU... it's only $7174: http://ark.intel.com/products/84685/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E7-8890-v3-45M-Cache-2_50-GHz
2016-02-28T21:41:48Z |3b|: but don't for example run hundreds of computation threads on an i7
2016-02-28T21:41:51Z kenanb: Shinmera: I had some problems with making qui components work, so since I don't have to decide on the specifics about it for now, I just came up with an ad-hoc way to clear the dynamic widget
2016-02-28T21:41:52Z aeth: right
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2016-02-28T21:42:17Z pareidolia: "Heap exhausted, game over.
2016-02-28T21:42:25Z pareidolia: Pffff
2016-02-28T21:42:41Z aeth: I would probably get an exhausted heap way before I ran into something that needed 18 cores with my current approaches.
2016-02-28T21:42:50Z Shinmera: kenanb: :/
2016-02-28T21:42:56Z pareidolia: All I want is a simple unit test
2016-02-28T21:42:59Z kenanb: Shinmera: (loop for w = (q+:take-at layout 0) until (null-qobject-p w) do (#_delete (q+:widget w))) then update stuff
2016-02-28T21:43:15Z |3b|: aeth: i think the high-end power and sparc chips do more threads than that
2016-02-28T21:43:30Z Shinmera: kenanb: Use (cl+qt:sweep-layout layout) instead
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2016-02-28T21:43:48Z aeth: The sort of thing I'm doing might be better on a GPU than on a 36+ thread CPU anyway. Very simple math atm.
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2016-02-28T21:44:33Z |3b|: for simple math, depends on memory access patterns whether a GPU would help, and whether you are doing anything else with it that needs a GPU
2016-02-28T21:44:48Z aeth: Oh, right, it would do it faster but it would probably take too long to go back and forth from the GPU
2016-02-28T21:44:57Z aeth: And no this isn't for my game engine
2016-02-28T21:45:01Z |3b|: if most of your time is spent copying to the GPU and back, might as well just do it on CPU and not be limited by pcie
2016-02-28T21:45:25Z kenanb: Shinmera: I am not exactly familiar with Qt + Qtools way of handling qt, I realized qui has its own "widget"s "item"s and "layout"s (?) at least seems like so, so I decided I start learning layer by layer to be able to debug stuff when I am actually using Qui
2016-02-28T21:45:26Z |3b|: also, GPU are really bad at random access
2016-02-28T21:45:48Z kenanb: Shinmera: tho I have to tell you, I changed my mind, Qtools is pretty slick in the way it handles stuff
2016-02-28T21:45:57Z Shinmera: kenanb: Ok.
2016-02-28T21:45:59Z heavyside: kebab
2016-02-28T21:46:01Z heavyside: arab
2016-02-28T21:46:04Z heavyside: terrorist.
2016-02-28T21:46:04Z kenanb: Shinmera: hmm, cool to hear about sweep-layout
2016-02-28T21:46:08Z pareidolia: For some reason, my FiveAM testcases have gotten really slow with massive memory usage since I used macros
2016-02-28T21:46:09Z aeth: Basically, I just found out that something in one of my programming practice things was embarrassingly parallel and so I sped it up from 1.8 seconds to 0.7 seconds by splitting it into 4 threads.
2016-02-28T21:46:52Z kenanb: Shinmera: haha it just works! :D
2016-02-28T21:47:01Z aeth: GPU probably wouldn't help with this in particular, actually, since I sped it up at the expense of memory by precomputing a bunch of stuff that would be computed a bunch of times, and storing it in a vector.
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2016-02-28T21:47:24Z aeth: Looking up a value is faster than simple arithmetic, apparently.
2016-02-28T21:47:37Z kenanb: Shinmera: ah, I was worried about finalizing when I manually delete stuff, I see sweep-layout also does that properly
2016-02-28T21:47:55Z Shinmera: kenanb: Right. You should always call FINALIZE instead of an explicit delete when possible.
2016-02-28T21:49:16Z pareidolia: Does using macros and memory explosion ring a bell with anyone?
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2016-02-28T21:49:39Z Bike: no, but if you're using 5am, what it does with compilation can get strange sometimes
2016-02-28T21:49:55Z pareidolia: Strange like?
2016-02-28T21:50:10Z Bike: every time you run a test it compiles the code from source
2016-02-28T21:50:12Z |3b|: aeth: depends on context, lots of things are faster to calculate these days
2016-02-28T21:50:17Z Shinmera: kenanb: Also see about getting acquainted with finalizable classes and the finalize slot option.
2016-02-28T21:50:30Z |3b|: or sometimes calculating something twice frees up more memory bandwidth for something else
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2016-02-28T21:50:38Z pareidolia: I have this test that just does some basic arithmetic and it doesn't even come off the ground
2016-02-28T21:50:42Z |3b|: (in other words, optimization is hard :)
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2016-02-28T21:52:40Z aeth: |3b|: right, but in this particular case it was a considerable (more than I thought) speed up to precompute all possible values from 1 to 3 * n and then just use arefs (and I just guessed at 3 * n for the max, tbh)
2016-02-28T21:53:13Z aeth: Although maybe this only applies to certain computers because as you said optimization is hard.
2016-02-28T21:53:13Z kenanb: Shinmera: btw, some feedback, reading about how a subwidgets are class-slots (with :finalized t option) in widget etc. helped me greatly to understand what is really going on. I believe that stuff should somehow find its way to qtools introduction. it seems like internals but it helps you to know what to expect much better.
2016-02-28T21:54:01Z Shinmera: kenanb: Ok. I'll keep it in mind, thanks.
2016-02-28T21:54:13Z aeth: |3b|: I think about 10x speed up to have that vector. Splitting into four threads was only about a 2.5x speed up.
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2016-02-28T21:54:37Z kenanb: Shinmera: without those stuff I was simply copying your samples and tweaking stuff hoping my version will work as well. now I know what it really means when I define a subwidget etc.
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2016-02-28T21:55:51Z Shinmera: kenanb: Heh, alright. I'm glad you're telling me this, since, well, I can't really know how someone who doesn't know how it works will get into it all.
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2016-02-28T21:57:40Z Shinmera: I'll see what I can do to extend the docs.
2016-02-28T21:58:41Z pareidolia: Removed macros from my test cases and it rips like a rocket
2016-02-28T22:00:32Z pareidolia: I'm not quite sure what's the obvious way to go about it with FiveAM
2016-02-28T22:00:43Z kenanb: Shinmera: yes. You can relate why I was (misguidedly) thinking using commonqt might actually be better in some circumstances. Once I really started reading the docstrings, and some of your earlier blog posts, how to use qtools became much more apparent to me, since now, when I need to, I was able to think about qtools in terms of things I was already familiar to, CLOS & MOP etc. :)
2016-02-28T22:00:52Z pareidolia: I've got a simple table of values, arguments and expected values to feed into a function
2016-02-28T22:01:05Z pareidolia: Macros seemed obvious, but fiveam really doesn't like ti
2016-02-28T22:02:59Z kenanb: Shinmera: I know it sounds like the abstraction layer fails its purpose when you put it that way, but it really is not, it still is there for me for easily interfacing, code is much more manageable then it would be without the qtools layer, but also I can easily debug it now, which is something you need pretty much when you are dealing with c++ libs.
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2016-02-28T22:04:05Z Shinmera: kenanb: Yes, I understand. I did try to be as extensive as possible in my documentation, but I guess labelling the section "internals" among other things makes people think it isn't worth reading.
2016-02-28T22:05:14Z kenanb: Shinmera: So you might as well think of putting those stuff under a title like "internals", "debugging" etc. instead of the main introduction. Btw both your blog posts are docstrings are really good as a starting point overall, even pointing to them would be a good start if you don't have time to compile new text out of them.
2016-02-28T22:06:19Z kenanb: Shinmera: I am pretty sure I read the whole thing multiple times.
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2016-02-28T22:06:27Z Shinmera: kenanb: Alright.
2016-02-28T22:07:26Z kenanb: Shinmera: maybe stuff like both CL and Qt having completely different concepts both named "slots" etc prevented me from understanding it, donno
2016-02-28T22:08:04Z Shinmera: Mostly things were written with the idea in mind that people are already familiar with both Qt and CL.
2016-02-28T22:08:17Z Shinmera: I don't know if I should give a tutorial on Qt too, since that seems to be a bit out of scope to me.
2016-02-28T22:08:55Z kenanb: when I am done with my current project, I'll try to contribute some diagrams about stuff that might make it easier to have a grasp of the internals
2016-02-28T22:09:11Z Shinmera: That would be great!
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2016-02-28T22:11:27Z kenanb: Shinmera: I don't think Qt tutorials are necessary. Tho I believe you should link to projects that use Qtools, especially like your image viewer etc.
2016-02-28T22:11:49Z Shinmera: I thought that the examples would already fill that need
2016-02-28T22:13:03Z Shinmera: Though I wouldn't mind having even more of those.
2016-02-28T22:13:05Z kenanb: Shinmera: The examples are cool, but more is always better, since sometimes some things do not work
2016-02-28T22:13:17Z kenanb: like currently helloworld dialog is broken for me
2016-02-28T22:13:53Z kenanb: I get memory exception, I don't even know if it related to the example or something about my libs, but it makes one less example for me to checkout
2016-02-28T22:13:56Z Shinmera: I tested that just yesterday and it works fine.
2016-02-28T22:14:55Z kenanb: yeah, I remember it working in my other laptop, somehow this one memory faults
2016-02-28T22:15:19Z Shinmera: What I wouldn't give to get rid of random memory faults.
2016-02-28T22:16:23Z Bike: pareidolia: are the macro functions slow or complicated?
2016-02-28T22:16:44Z kenanb: Shinmera: haha yeah :D there will always be some stuff newcomers will not be able to make work, either because of their newbness or some problem with setup, some library change, etc. so I love multiple examples
2016-02-28T22:17:13Z pareidolia: Bike: Expansion is instantaneous
2016-02-28T22:18:18Z kenanb: Shinmera: I am using gazillion of layouts and styles widgets in my own project, so I am guessing that will as well be a cool example when done
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2016-02-28T22:56:22Z ClockCat: do you guys have any recommendations for learning resources for a nooblet looking to checkout lisp?
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2016-02-28T22:56:46Z ClockCat: i see the wiki
2016-02-28T22:57:03Z ClockCat: and i ordered land of lisp
2016-02-28T22:57:05Z Shinmera: Do you already know another language?
2016-02-28T22:57:11Z ClockCat: c#
2016-02-28T22:57:20Z Shinmera: minion: tell ClockCat about PCL
2016-02-28T22:57:21Z minion: ClockCat: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-02-28T22:57:37Z Shinmera: ^this is the generally most often recommended book to get started with
2016-02-28T22:57:43Z ClockCat: thanks :)
2016-02-28T22:58:12Z pareidolia: I loved it
2016-02-28T22:58:15Z pareidolia: Even more than LoL
2016-02-28T22:58:21Z ClockCat: nice!
2016-02-28T22:59:15Z ClockCat: ill be sure to check through it, thanks :)
2016-02-28T22:59:29Z Lord_Nightmare: ok, since nobody has made a graph like this before, i'm trying to extend daniel kochmanski's graph of lisp genesis stuff to include what license the various extant lisps are released under if any
2016-02-28T23:00:21Z Lord_Nightmare: ... is dan kochmanski in this channel? i'm wondering if he has an .svg version of that document, which would be a lot easier to modify...
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2016-02-28T23:00:46Z Shinmera: Lord_Nightmare: it's jackdaniel
2016-02-28T23:00:56Z Lord_Nightmare: ah ok
2016-02-28T23:01:22Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: do you have a .svg version of that diagram?
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2016-02-28T23:02:01Z Lord_Nightmare: Also am curious how i should mark licenses... some sort of color ring around things? also what if the lisp itself is under one license but the libraries it includes are under a different license (LLGPL or LGPL, etc)?
2016-02-28T23:02:41Z Lord_Nightmare: i see CCL's license changed from LLGPL to APACHE2.0 less than a month ago, but not sure if the library licenses changed...
2016-02-28T23:03:51Z Lord_Nightmare: also one thing possibly missing: i think symbolics' genera came from "lisp machine lisp" which ran on mit CONS and CADR machines
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2016-02-28T23:04:15Z Lord_Nightmare: and this same "lisp machine lisp" also begat the lisps on the LMI machines and the ti explorer
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2016-02-28T23:04:47Z Lord_Nightmare: sadly i don't think any copy of it still exists except maybe as CADR tapes
2016-02-28T23:05:28Z Lord_Nightmare: and possibly in the MIT archives
2016-02-28T23:05:38Z aeth: Is there a somewhat portable way to tell how many threads are available on a CPU?
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2016-02-28T23:13:35Z p_l: accessing the underlying OS information
2016-02-28T23:13:51Z aeth: Is there an OS portability library for this?
2016-02-28T23:14:06Z p_l: afaik no
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2016-02-28T23:27:51Z kenanb: aeth, p_l: a search of "number of cores lisp" resulted in Edi's book having a nice chapter on that
2016-02-28T23:28:18Z kenanb: on google books
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2016-02-28T23:30:33Z kenanb: it gets the info from os layer using cffi
2016-02-28T23:31:35Z aeth: kenanb: ah, I ignored that result because I didn't know it would even show a section of a copyrighted book
2016-02-28T23:32:17Z Bike: there's a lot of court battles behind being able to read that, y'know
2016-02-28T23:32:50Z kenanb: I don't know what kind of licencing it has around that situation, but the info is there, and it is google books, so I expected it to be legal, is it not?
2016-02-28T23:33:09Z p_l: heh, I immediately thought the court battles were about reading the cpu info ... :P
2016-02-28T23:33:38Z kenanb: Bike: do you mean the partial access we get to books over google books illegal? I always thought they have an agreement with publishers so we can do that, no?
2016-02-28T23:33:55Z aeth: p_l: Fortunately, Intel wants you to read their CPU info.
2016-02-28T23:34:03Z Bike: it's legal, but not from specific agreements. it's from fair use.
2016-02-28T23:34:05Z kenanb: Bike: I mean am I doing something Edi didn't hope I should be able to do by reading that info?
2016-02-28T23:34:18Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_Guild,_Inc._v._Google,_Inc.
2016-02-28T23:34:30Z kenanb: wow, I had absolutely no idea!
2016-02-28T23:35:29Z Lord_Nightmare: whats interesting is the authors guild got a concession from google that forces google to censor/restrict access to all books, not just those by authors guild members
2016-02-28T23:35:42Z Lord_Nightmare: there was a fight about whether that settlement is even legal
2016-02-28T23:35:47Z aeth: So basically Google has more resources than the book industry so they can do this?
2016-02-28T23:36:00Z Lord_Nightmare: since effectively the authors guild is getting cash for books that are not theirs
2016-02-28T23:36:04Z Lord_Nightmare: from google
2016-02-28T23:36:59Z akkad: kenanb: it gets it from sysconf()
2016-02-28T23:37:04Z akkad: on windows it's more complicated
2016-02-28T23:37:34Z Bike: aeth: that's a factor, yes.
2016-02-28T23:37:52Z Bike: not that publishers don't have a pretty good amount of resources to throw around
2016-02-28T23:38:57Z aeth: akkad: Which is why a portability library would be helpful. Ideally, I want things that run on Linux, Windows (and ReactOS), OS X, BSD, Haiku, all LispOSes (there are apparently several), etc.
2016-02-28T23:39:14Z aeth: Without having to test on all of those.
2016-02-28T23:39:50Z aeth: That's the promise of CL, right? Write once, run everywhere. :-p
2016-02-28T23:41:47Z kenanb: aeth: not sure about that
2016-02-28T23:43:13Z Bike: it's a joke about java. but that kind of thing is a bit hard to do crosswise
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2016-02-28T23:44:10Z aeth: Well, afaik it's easy to write once, run everywhere. The issues are performance and bugs.
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2016-02-28T23:44:23Z aeth: e.g. all my clever optimizations might be slower on a different CL or on Windows
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2016-02-28T23:44:48Z kenanb: well, CL promises that for the stuff that is clearly defined by specification, which is more or less the point of a spec, except CL spec a nice range of stuff.
2016-02-28T23:44:59Z Bike: it tends to get annoying the more of the interfaces you need to use.
2016-02-28T23:46:34Z kenanb: aeth: it totally depends on what you are trying to achieve. Some stuff is unportable by nature because it tries to deal with the environment, not CL itself.
2016-02-28T23:48:44Z kenanb: Bike: I like it when the portability layer takes the sanest interface it tries to abstract you from as reference for its own api, so at least you either don't have to learn one more api, or once you learn it you also learn one of the underlying api's.
2016-02-28T23:49:35Z Bike: yeah, but sometimes the interface isn't enough. and you want stuff like a number of cores, which isn't part of the multiprocessing api
2016-02-28T23:49:42Z akkad: posix only gets you a few of those
2016-02-28T23:50:11Z kenanb: Bike: yep.
2016-02-28T23:51:53Z Lord_Nightmare: ...wow, the lisp licensing sphere looks like a pollock painting
2016-02-28T23:52:21Z kenanb: side note: rms proposed an environment variable called "POSIX_ME_HARDER", yeah, that happened.
2016-02-28T23:52:52Z Lord_Nightmare: lgplv2.0, v2.1, v3, gplv2, gplv2+library-linking-non-exception (i.e. 'proto AGPL'), MIT, 2BSD, and Public Domain. And leaked commercial code but we do not talk about that.
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2016-02-28T23:52:59Z akkad: Richard, "Hey wait up guys!", Stallman? yeah too bad they did not invite him to work for Bolix
2016-02-28T23:53:45Z Lord_Nightmare: well, stallman was kinda right in that symbolics fucked over the lisp hacker community at mit
2016-02-28T23:53:58Z Lord_Nightmare: but the license he chose was suboptimal in my opinion
2016-02-28T23:54:49Z Lord_Nightmare: honestly symbolics storing code on mit servers and refusing to release it was kinda crappy but if they paid mit for the right to do that i see no reason stallman was 'right' in that regard
2016-02-28T23:54:57Z Lord_Nightmare: so i dunno
2016-02-28T23:55:12Z Lord_Nightmare: once symbolics moved their source repo to their own server, stallman had no further say
2016-02-28T23:55:57Z Lord_Nightmare: what symbolics did which was fucky which stallman was right about was one thing: they 'co-opted' the mit server which had been public and locked down all the code on it, which the students like stallman were working from
2016-02-28T23:56:13Z Lord_Nightmare: effectively turning the students into free labor, and not allowing them to use their own code anymore
2016-02-28T23:56:16Z Lord_Nightmare: that was fucked up
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2016-02-28T23:56:52Z Lord_Nightmare: had symbolics had their own fork of LML lisp on mit's servers separate from the 'mit licensed' public branch it wouldn't have been such an issue
2016-02-28T23:56:58Z Lord_Nightmare: instead they co-oped the public one
2016-02-28T23:57:05Z Lord_Nightmare: and made a deal with mit to lock it down
2016-02-28T23:57:17Z Lord_Nightmare: LMI inc had already forked it at that point though
2016-02-28T23:57:29Z Lord_Nightmare: and that's how LML lisp 'became' closed source, i think.
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2016-02-28T23:58:13Z aeth: I have two issues with Stallman. Yes, the license he wants. Also, the whole GNU/Linux thing. GNU's becoming increasingly irrelevant with e.g. tmux instead of screen, llvm instead of gcc, etc. Once there's a native-CL replacement for emacs+SLIME that'll hopefully be way faster than the Guilemacs that the official emacs wants, GNU will be very irrelevant to me.
2016-02-28T23:58:18Z aeth: They'll have, what? coreutils?
2016-02-28T23:58:26Z Lord_Nightmare: i don't like stallman's license.
2016-02-28T23:58:33Z Lord_Nightmare: so i agree with you there
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2016-02-28T23:58:54Z aeth: Pretty soon, GIMP is going to be the only irreplacable part of GNU because apparently no one cares about cloning that.
2016-02-28T23:59:16Z Shinmera: Everyone's just running Photoshop in Wine or a VM.
2016-02-28T23:59:35Z Lord_Nightmare: i think stallman and others should have sued mit for allowing others to profiteer off of their work and lock it down without their permission 'in retrospect'
2016-02-28T23:59:44Z Lord_Nightmare: that was legal bullshit
2016-02-28T23:59:47Z aeth: I can do what I want in GIMP and Blender... no need for proprietary software there.
2016-02-28T23:59:59Z Lord_Nightmare: but the GPL and LGPL and shit is taking stuff too far in the other direction
2016-02-29T00:00:07Z varjag: photoshop in wine sounds like a nightmare
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2016-02-29T00:00:17Z Lord_Nightmare: new photoshop is a mess
2016-02-29T00:00:21Z aeth: Lord_Nightmare: The winner of a lawsuit in the US is frequently whoever has more resources, which I'm guessing would be MIT, not rms.
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2016-02-29T00:00:23Z Lord_Nightmare: subscription only
2016-02-29T00:00:47Z varjag: i never was able to run an application worth running in wine
2016-02-29T00:01:12Z aeth: I could run AoE II HD in wine, and it mostly worked. So that would've been like the 4th time I bought AoE II.
2016-02-29T00:01:33Z kenanb: wow, I just said rms once, look what happened :D
2016-02-29T00:01:35Z aeth: But then I updated and wine stopped working and I didn't want to bother fixing Steam + wine just for one game.
2016-02-29T00:01:35Z kenanb: sorry
2016-02-29T00:01:47Z aeth: wine's really not worth it imo.
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2016-02-29T00:02:19Z Lord_Nightmare: i'm trying to make a map of licenses which various lisps are under
2016-02-29T00:02:47Z Lord_Nightmare: also i think i know who owns the rights to symbolics/opengenera but not 100% sure.
2016-02-29T00:03:43Z Lord_Nightmare: i THINK opengenera is ansi lisp/common lisp compliant so it should have a black border on that diagram, i think?
2016-02-29T00:03:49Z aeth: Interestingly, single user OSes aren't as big of a downside as they once were now that there's sandboxing, VMs, etc., and most computers only have one actual human user anyway.
2016-02-29T00:03:50Z Lord_Nightmare: it hasn't been updated since 1998 though
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2016-02-29T00:04:34Z Lord_Nightmare: so if the ansi/common lisp definition has been updated since 1998 it clearly isn't compatible with later stuff
2016-02-29T00:04:58Z varjag: it hasn't been
2016-02-29T00:05:11Z aeth: The Common Lisp standard hasn't been updated since around 1994 iirc, but there are de facto standards for threading (compatability with bordeaux-threads) and probably unicode too
2016-02-29T00:05:49Z varjag: that has nothing to do with ansi compliance though
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2016-02-29T00:06:32Z aeth: Yes, but if you can comply with ANSI without threading, unicode, CFFI, etc., you're still not going to have a very useful CL.
2016-02-29T00:06:58Z Shinmera: debatable
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2016-02-29T00:07:38Z kenanb: aeth: that is a lisp operating system! CFFI stuff should be slightly irrelevant in that context :D
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2016-02-29T00:08:57Z aeth: Shinmera: You need unicode for most modern text processing, especially web stuff. You need threading to do certain things at the maximum possible speed on multi-core processors which were only common on consumer hardware after the GHz wall was hit which was around 2006 or so iirc. And you need CFFI to talk to the OS and certain foreign libraries for lots of stuff, although in a LispOS yes CFFI is irrelevant.
2016-02-29T00:09:31Z Shinmera: aeth: "useful" is very context dependent.
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2016-02-29T00:10:23Z aeth: Of course, if you don't have CFFI and C on your LispOS, you need to have equivalent functionality in native Lisp for every C library that a user needs... which is impossible for all users and probably not possible for most users at the moment.
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2016-02-29T00:10:37Z Shinmera: Eg Clasp doesn't have threads, unicode, or CFFI and yet it can run Cando and is thus very useful.
2016-02-29T00:10:40Z aeth: Even a modern LispOS would unfortunately need to use some C libraries.
2016-02-29T00:10:56Z varjag: i never used FFI or unicode directly in my lisp programs
2016-02-29T00:10:58Z kenanb: aeth: that could've been like one of the best development environments, provided necessary suitable connectedness to do the testing somewhere else.
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2016-02-29T00:12:04Z kenanb: aeth: btw it has a C compiler IIRC
2016-02-29T00:12:19Z aeth: I think every graphical program on an OS that's not a LispOS needs to use CFFI, directly or indirectly. I could be wrong.
2016-02-29T00:12:49Z aeth: Since we're talking about features of a given CL implementation, it doesn't matter if it's indirect usage.
2016-02-29T00:12:49Z kenanb: you have a point aeth but you are thinking this too much in terms of "being useful to general public"
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2016-02-29T00:13:48Z varjag: aeth: i used allegro cl with its interface builder
2016-02-29T00:13:50Z kenanb: most people you see in the street would call our current os configurations totally useless and unmanagable
2016-02-29T00:13:53Z Bike: clx just uses sockets, far as i remember.
2016-02-29T00:13:58Z varjag: pretty sure no ffi was involved
2016-02-29T00:15:08Z aeth: varjag: How does Allegro CL request a window from the OS?
2016-02-29T00:15:18Z aeth: Or did you use Allegro CL in a LispOS?
2016-02-29T00:16:39Z varjag: pretty sure it was winnt createwindow() at some point
2016-02-29T00:16:47Z varjag: i did not use ffi though
2016-02-29T00:17:01Z p_l: aeth: Allegro "CG" interface, I guess?
2016-02-29T00:17:32Z aeth: kenanb: That's why I like graphical stuff. Most people are visual, and sure you might come up with something impressive and cool, but not too many people will understand that. But if you come up with something that *looks* cool, they probably will understand that.
2016-02-29T00:17:33Z varjag: aeth: the danger with too general definitions is they are useless
2016-02-29T00:17:39Z Lord_Nightmare: hmm. so PSL is based on 'Utah' in the diagram?
2016-02-29T00:17:51Z varjag: when you do with-output-file in sbcl, you betcha there's fopen() at some point
2016-02-29T00:18:11Z p_l: varjag: not fopen(), afaik
2016-02-29T00:18:35Z aeth: kenanb: If a LispOS can run SDL 2 and Vulkan and a handful of other C stuff, you could build/port some cool 3D applications even though something you wrote would no longer be in pure CL.
2016-02-29T00:18:43Z p_l: but open(2) or CreateFile* is more likely
2016-02-29T00:18:46Z varjag: p_l: you get the idea
2016-02-29T00:18:55Z p_l: aeth: Zeta-C? :)
2016-02-29T00:18:58Z aeth: Although I guess a LispOS could come up with an API that's almost-identical to cl-sdl2 and cl-vulkan, etc., and so you could write code that uses C on all OSes other than itself, and only CL on itself.
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2016-02-29T00:19:15Z aeth: You'd still have to port SDL2, Vulkan, etc., for non-CL applications, though
2016-02-29T00:20:16Z Lord_Nightmare: utah lisp.... i have absolutely no idea what license this uses. maybe i cna email brad hughes
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2016-02-29T00:20:40Z Lord_Nightmare: http://www.ceng.metu.edu.tr/~ucoluk/research/lisp/generalinfo.html and https://github.com/blakemcbride/PSL
2016-02-29T00:20:46Z Lord_Nightmare: er not brad hughes, sorry brad
2016-02-29T00:20:53Z Lord_Nightmare: blake mcbride
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2016-02-29T00:25:04Z kenanb: Lord_Nightmare: one of those guys who wrote the compiler was the #1 in the Turkish University exams the year he entered, which is interesting considering 80mil population :)
2016-02-29T00:25:26Z kenanb: 80m
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2016-02-29T00:29:21Z kenanb: no idea why they wrote that btw
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2016-02-29T00:41:03Z Lord_Nightmare: oh: ccl license change mail: https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2016-January/011174.html
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2016-02-29T00:42:27Z Lord_Nightmare: i hope i'm not annoying people too much with this chatter...
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2016-02-29T00:50:53Z _z: its an irc channel
2016-02-29T00:50:58Z _z: you're supposed to talk
2016-02-29T00:51:40Z aeth: But there are other channels too like e.g. #lispcafe and ##lisp and #lispgames etc.
2016-02-29T00:51:50Z aeth: So talking in the right channel is part of IRC, not just talking
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2016-02-29T00:52:28Z aeth: License talk might be more of a #lispcafe thing, idk.
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2016-02-29T00:55:50Z _z: those channels are dead
2016-02-29T00:56:06Z _z: as in i can lurk there for two or three days with no one saying a thing
2016-02-29T00:56:26Z aeth: #lispgames is very alive, though yes the rest are dead. Especially #lispweb. I'm not even there anymore.
2016-02-29T00:57:45Z aeth: I think channel activity goes: #emacs > #lisp > #lispgames > #scheme > everything else
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2016-02-29T00:59:49Z aeth: There are probably 4-5 game/graphics engine attemps on Common Lisp, and in typical Lisp fashion there's very little coordination between the individual efforts.
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2016-02-29T01:02:11Z aeth: CEPL, lispgames (the Github organization), whatever |3b| is doing, my engine, and warweasle's engine. So that's 5 that I can think of right now. I think everyone except |3b| uses cl-sdl2 in addition to cl-opengl so at least not everything is duplicated.
2016-02-29T01:02:44Z aeth: I think warweasle's engine is clinch?
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2016-02-29T01:04:30Z aeth: The 5 I am counting is only counting CL, and only people who go to #lispgames at least sometimes.
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2016-02-29T01:07:06Z _z: huh, i never thought people would write games in lisp
2016-02-29T01:07:30Z aeth: SBCL is roughly in the same performance category of Java and C#, and lots of people write games in either (increasingly C# instead of Java).
2016-02-29T01:07:53Z aeth: All you need is a wrapper over the (usually-C) libraries for certain things, especially SDL2 or some equivalent protability library for windows and creating a GL context.
2016-02-29T01:08:19Z aeth: You could write it in Python over SDL if you wanted to, but Python's too slow for serious games. SBCL is not.
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2016-02-29T01:17:45Z kenanb: https://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter15.html I think this "Using closures to keep private, secure information." part doesn't really mean anything in terms of actual security, right?
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2016-02-29T01:18:21Z kenanb: I mean it should be pretty possible to introspect the lexical environment of a closure in real world
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2016-02-29T01:20:01Z kenanb: it seems like security through obscurity
2016-02-29T01:20:54Z Bike: yes. of course, you could have a system that does actually make it secure, but i don't know of one.
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2016-02-29T01:22:32Z p_l: fork() and/or ACLed memory mappings
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2016-02-29T01:23:50Z kenanb: Bike: ah, cool. seeing an example of security through obscurity was interesting in context of CL since it is normally regarded as a system that is too hacker friendly, everything introspectible etc :)
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2016-02-29T01:24:58Z aeth: These days the whole Internet is like that. JS games are trivial to cheat in, just use the web debugger to look at the structure of the game.
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2016-02-29T01:25:25Z aeth: In that specific example, if you wanted a secure MP game, the only way to do it would probably be to not trust the client.
2016-02-29T01:25:51Z kenanb: ofc, everything that is on client side is very clearly available
2016-02-29T01:26:20Z Bike: yeah, if you have a local game you can just use a gameshark, my entire middle school class knew that much
2016-02-29T01:26:39Z kenanb: aeth: actually not relying on the client is the industry practice, an not only for browser games.
2016-02-29T01:27:06Z Bike: now, that all said, you can use closures for information hiding in an organizational, rather than secure, way
2016-02-29T01:29:23Z Bike: you know, like returning a closure from an api call, and having confidence that the programmer isn't going to use the closed over variables, unless they know what they're doing or are otherwise liable for the worm cans they open
2016-02-29T01:30:08Z kenanb: Bike: yes, and I think it is pretty convenient, what I am actually trying to do right now is more or less an example of that, but I have a hard time finding examples of closures that are actually used in software for that purpose
2016-02-29T01:30:27Z Bike: a lot of the time it's more convenient to just use objects or something.
2016-02-29T01:30:45Z Bike: ppcre uses a lot of closures. maybe that's an example.
2016-02-29T01:31:04Z kenanb: Bike: hmm, I should check it out, thank you.
2016-02-29T01:32:44Z kenanb: Bike: the thing is, I am delaying the execution of a function (that does make-instance) because I expect some [optionally] provided data from user, so creating a closure consisting of the stuff I inferred, and then calling it with user provided initargs seems like very fitting
2016-02-29T01:32:58Z Bike: sure.
2016-02-29T01:33:28Z kenanb: Bike: and otherwise creating an object to temporarily hold the values I provided in order to create another object really seems weird in this context
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2016-02-29T01:33:32Z Bike: (lambda (&rest user-initargs) (apply #'make-instance (append user-initargs my-initargs))) sorta thing.
2016-02-29T01:34:26Z kenanb: exactly!
2016-02-29T01:34:39Z Bike: what do you want the example for?
2016-02-29T01:35:51Z kenanb: because I suspected people might be using it in much more interesting ways than the one I needed, it is a nice learning opportunity, while you are already thinking about it
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2016-02-29T01:37:06Z Bike: if you're just looking at things broadly then i think http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/FeeleyLapalmeCL87.pdf is neat, personally.
2016-02-29T01:37:33Z kenanb: Bike: I was thinking maybe the related api that will incorporate this lambda can change in a way to integrate even better with the closure, since I am already creating one
2016-02-29T01:38:02Z kenanb: ah, great!
2016-02-29T01:38:09Z kenanb: thank you!
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2016-02-29T01:42:44Z p_l: kenanb: the only way to vet client machines is known to give many an attack of FUD-spewing :)
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2016-02-29T01:49:27Z kenanb: p_l: yeah, but cmon, I won't say corporates have the best of intentions, but players hate cheaters as much as corporates like vetting client machines
2016-02-29T01:50:15Z kenanb: no fud needs to be spewed to persuade a gamer to demand anti-cheat
2016-02-29T01:50:54Z p_l: kenanb: yeah, but no gamer will accept game corp vetted TPM
2016-02-29T01:51:07Z p_l: on the other hand, TPMs are pretty useful inside corporate networks
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2016-02-29T01:52:36Z aeth: p_l: What stops e.g. all future Steam Machines from having one, though?
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2016-02-29T01:54:09Z kenanb: well, there are counter-measures, and then there is going over-board
2016-02-29T01:54:20Z p_l: aeth: steam machines could have one, indeed
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2016-02-29T01:54:58Z p_l: a little-known, I guess, use of remote attestation is ChromeOS
2016-02-29T01:55:29Z kenanb: AFAIK so far steam machines are just a specification of hardware. And even though they can add that into the specification, there is no point in criticizing corps over stuff they haven't done yet
2016-02-29T01:56:54Z ClockCat: time to go home
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2016-02-29T01:56:59Z p_l: yup, time for bed
2016-02-29T01:57:13Z p_l notes to self to check if he can somehow get tboot as UEFI binary
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2016-02-29T02:03:05Z kenanb: Bike: btw that example defun's inside let, tho it seems pretty straightforward as the intention is to create named functions that close over lexical variables, I still wonder if there anything weird with the defun in let.
2016-02-29T02:03:34Z kenanb: Bike: except the fact that the pattern has better alternatives in most contexts.
2016-02-29T02:04:00Z kenanb: I mean is the behaviour of such closures well defined?
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2016-02-29T02:07:57Z kenanb: I also wonder if (declare #.*standard-optimize-settings*) pattern Edi uses is used in other libraries as well, seems slick
2016-02-29T02:08:43Z loke: Good morning Lisp!
2016-02-29T02:08:45Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering (probably no one is) this is what I wound up with for my threaded code: http://paste.lisp.org/+6M17
2016-02-29T02:09:11Z loke: kenanb: I use it.
2016-02-29T02:09:39Z loke: aeth: For things like that I use lparallel
2016-02-29T02:10:01Z Bike: kenanb: defun at non top level is well defined.
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2016-02-29T02:10:40Z aeth: loke: My class is only designed to work for integers from up to n that you do something (i.e. function) to, but is probably faster than a general-purpose library at that.
2016-02-29T02:10:54Z aeth: s/from/from 0/
2016-02-29T02:10:55Z kenanb: loke: cool, any library example? I want to see which functions you pick to add the declaration and from which you exclude it
2016-02-29T02:11:14Z kenanb: though examples in cl-ppcre might also be sufficient
2016-02-29T02:12:00Z kenanb: Bike: cool, thanks!
2016-02-29T02:12:03Z loke: kenanb: I put it in a global declamation on the top of every file. When I build a production build, I change the setting.
2016-02-29T02:12:29Z loke: Like so: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/channel-web.lisp#L6
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2016-02-29T02:13:17Z kenanb: but is it the sane thing to do to apply the exact same optimize settings to every piece of code in the library?
2016-02-29T02:13:37Z kenanb: of course the answer is probably "it depends"
2016-02-29T02:14:07Z loke: kenanb: well, yes. of course it depends, but in general I use (speed 3) (safety 1) for production builds.
2016-02-29T02:14:18Z loke: At least in SBCL that gives me proper runtime checks
2016-02-29T02:15:14Z kenanb: I see.
2016-02-29T02:16:39Z loke: I use this to be able to set a global override when doing a production build: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/common/package.lisp#L162
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2016-02-29T02:18:45Z kenanb: interesting
2016-02-29T02:18:50Z kenanb: thanks loke
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2016-02-29T03:19:30Z aeth: If I wanted to write an interpreter in CL, should I compile the interpreted language to an s-expression-based IR and then go through this IR in CL? So e.g. '(/ 1 2) becomes (:division 1 2) which looks up :division which could be as simple as idk (/ 1 2) in Lisp with a typecast so it's not the rational you'd get in the native CL / operation?
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2016-02-29T03:23:30Z Bike: something like that. no reason not to just use /itself, though.
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2016-02-29T03:24:33Z aeth: I need to be careful when using CL stuff directly. The reason I need to make my own language is because it needs to be sandboxable.
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2016-02-29T03:25:07Z Bike: the symbol / is just a symbol.
2016-02-29T03:25:40Z Bike: if you're doing your own interpreter there's no reason that names have to correspond to what they do in CL, you know?
2016-02-29T03:26:39Z aeth: What I might wind up doing is implement a subset of Scheme in this CL interpreter. If it's Scheme, I should be able to cut more corners (though not all corners, especially because of call/cc and the separate true/false)
2016-02-29T03:27:50Z aeth: Most of the number stuff should be "free" if I use Scheme, with checks around the differences, so e.g. (complex? x) would have to be implemented something like: (if (or (complexp x) (rationalp x) :true :false)
2016-02-29T03:27:57Z Bike: call/cc is really easy in an interpreter.
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2016-02-29T03:28:07Z aeth: oops, I forgot a ) after (rationalp x) because I'm too used to paredit
2016-02-29T03:28:46Z aeth: So what I'll wind up with is basically a progn or maybe even a tagbody of safe CL commands wrapped for Scheme compatability.
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2016-02-29T03:29:36Z aeth: I don't think there's a particular reason why I'd have to do a traditional interpreter, is there? So e.g. with something like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-address_code
2016-02-29T03:29:51Z aeth: If I can just do (/ 1 2 3 4 5) directly in CL it will probably be faster for what I want to do.
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2016-02-29T03:32:15Z Bike: well, more like a compiler, then.
2016-02-29T03:32:26Z Bike: somewhat more complex to write.
2016-02-29T03:33:18Z aeth: Well, yeah, I have to make a sorta compiler to make sure that it stays sandboxed anyway, and if I have to do that, I might as well make a Scheme-like language in CL.
2016-02-29T03:33:49Z Bike: i don't see what sandboxing has to do with compiling?
2016-02-29T03:34:23Z aeth: No, it wouldn't be a real compiler, it would compile it to an intermediate form of known-safe CL expressions which would be evaluated in some order as determined by the control flow of the small scripting language.
2016-02-29T03:34:41Z aeth: transpile, I guess, is the term everyone is using these days.
2016-02-29T03:35:45Z aeth: CL's great, and it's awesome, and it has fast compiled implementations, but I need a tiny scripting language for what I'm working on.
2016-02-29T03:36:32Z Bike: sure, yes, i just think i don't get why you'd need a compiler specifically.
2016-02-29T03:37:03Z aeth: No, it wouldn't be a compiler to machine code.
2016-02-29T03:37:12Z Bike: that's not what i meant?
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2016-02-29T03:39:33Z aeth: Bike: So what you're saying, then, is that even compiling to an intermediate form as the interpreter method is overkill?
2016-02-29T03:39:40Z aeth: I think I misunderstood you at some point
2016-02-29T03:40:01Z Bike: we're so completely misunderstanding each other that i'm just going to stop talking now
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2016-02-29T03:42:08Z aeth: Hmm... That's probably my fault for poorly communicating. I think I should rephrase. I need a small, sandboxable language (so no access to system stuff). The easiest way to do this would be to simply interpret '(/ 1 2 3) as (division-function 1 2 3) etc, right?
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2016-02-29T03:42:39Z Bike: sure
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2016-02-29T03:47:31Z aeth: The problem I'm going to run into is with functions and variables, right? I can't just use lambda, let, etc., from CL because scope might be handled slightly differently, etc. And if I wanted to make it a Scheme-subset for simplicity, there would certainly be differences like e.g. it would be a lisp-1
2016-02-29T03:47:51Z Bike: i'd just write a five minute normal style interpreter
2016-02-29T03:49:11Z Bike: like, basically this one https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-26.html#%_sec_4.1.1
2016-02-29T03:49:32Z aeth: Right, I'm sort of half-recalling things from the SICP videos (I never went through the whole book)
2016-02-29T03:50:42Z Bike: then the only intrusion from CL is whatever you choose to put as primitive operators in the default environment of your language, so it's sandboxed
2016-02-29T03:50:43Z aeth: Iirc, I think the simplest interpreter is literally just writing an (eval) in the target s-expression language
2016-02-29T03:51:08Z aeth: s/in the/for the/
2016-02-29T03:51:34Z aeth: Your link says eval+apply
2016-02-29T03:51:50Z aeth: so that's probably the correct version
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2016-02-29T03:55:22Z Bike: it's like a page of code. i'd do that and if it's not good enough i'd do something more complicated.
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2016-02-29T03:56:41Z aeth: That's probably the best idea.
2016-02-29T03:56:55Z aeth: I was overthinking, thanks.
2016-02-29T03:56:57Z drmeister: If one were to implement an FFI for Clasp - what would you do?   Would you implement cffi-sys?  https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/
2016-02-29T03:57:45Z aeth: ah, so that's clasp
2016-02-29T03:57:49Z aeth: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp#clasp--bringing-common-lisp-and-c-together
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2016-02-29T03:58:22Z drmeister: Yes.
2016-02-29T03:58:28Z Bike: drmeister: pretty much? you don't already have one, though?
2016-02-29T03:58:54Z aeth: It's kind of cheating for whoever said earlier that Clasp doesn't have CFFI but is still useful when it apparently has something equivalent but non-portable.
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2016-02-29T03:59:09Z drmeister: I have a way of binding C++ libraries but I don't have a proper FFI.  I'd like to get OpenGL running and it seems best to use the existing FFI approach.
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2016-02-29T04:00:13Z aeth: clasp would be interesting competition to sbcl for something like running cl-opengl, cl-sdl2, etc.
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2016-02-29T04:08:57Z JuanDaugherty sees ASP as more fit for prolog, if that's what you were referring to
2016-02-29T04:09:24Z JuanDaugherty: is it Answer Set Programming in lisp/CL?
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2016-02-29T04:10:01Z JuanDaugherty: no
2016-02-29T04:10:19Z JuanDaugherty: but I think there is an ASP thing called "clasp" too
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2016-02-29T04:33:41Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: do you have a .svg or chartmaker or whatnot version of that lisp version diagram you posted to your twitter?
2016-02-29T04:33:52Z Lord_Nightmare: i think i spotted a few errors/ommissions in it
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2016-02-29T04:34:39Z Lord_Nightmare: omission1: i think LispMachineLisp is the progenitor of both TI lisp and of Genera
2016-02-29T04:35:02Z Lord_Nightmare: omission2: i think opengenera is common lisp/ansi lisp compatible (but doesn't do unicode?)
2016-02-29T04:35:35Z Lord_Nightmare: it should be shaded as 'abandoned' since i don't believe it has seen an update since 1998
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2016-02-29T04:37:36Z drmeister: Is there a way to set the slot of a CLOS object to UNBOUND?
2016-02-29T04:38:02Z Bike: slot-makunbound
2016-02-29T04:38:05Z drmeister: slot-makunbound
2016-02-29T04:38:09Z drmeister: Got it - thanks.
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2016-02-29T04:39:03Z drmeister: And that's the only way to make a slot unbound - right?  Other than not initializing it.
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2016-02-29T04:40:41Z Bike: in mop, it uses slot-makunbound-using-class.
2016-02-29T04:41:06Z drmeister: Because I have a bug in my MPS implementation of Clasp and sometimes it crashes because slots are unbound and there are no slot-makunbound calls in Cleavir.
2016-02-29T04:41:28Z drmeister: So my hypothesis is that instances are not being initialized for some reason.
2016-02-29T04:41:49Z drmeister: I don't know how I'm going to track it down though (sigh)
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2016-02-29T05:17:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-02-29T05:21:43Z _Zach: Morning, beach.
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2016-02-29T05:23:50Z drmeister: Hi beach.
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2016-02-29T05:24:39Z drmeister: beach: You don't use slot-makunbound in your CLOS code in Cleavir - correct?  I searched for slot-makunbound and don't find it.
2016-02-29T05:25:09Z drmeister: I'm working on the MPS version of Clasp and I'm getting random crashes that look like this:
2016-02-29T05:25:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/f350ubah/
2016-02-29T05:25:30Z beach: Correct, I am not using SLOT-MAKUNBOUND.
2016-02-29T05:25:50Z drmeister: All of a sudden - bam - there's some AST object with an unbound slot.
2016-02-29T05:26:16Z beach: It is possible that some slots do not get bound at creation time, though.
2016-02-29T05:26:24Z drmeister: So the only way that can happen is if the object was not initialized. But how can that be I wonder.  Hmm
2016-02-29T05:26:39Z beach: It is easy to forget an initarg.
2016-02-29T05:26:46Z drmeister: Is it?
2016-02-29T05:26:59Z Bike: well, yeah.
2016-02-29T05:27:02Z drmeister: Well, I don't think that's the case here because it works with the Boehm GC
2016-02-29T05:27:24Z beach: Yeah, OK.
2016-02-29T05:27:40Z beach: It would have been detected already, very likely.
2016-02-29T05:28:14Z drmeister: For some reason with the MPS I get these somewhat random unbound slots for Cleavir AST nodes.
2016-02-29T05:29:14Z drmeister: They are discovered in a call to slot-value.   Which is a bit surprising as well.   I thought all slot accesses would be with indices
2016-02-29T05:30:07Z beach: I think SLOT-VALUE is required to detect unbound slots.
2016-02-29T05:30:38Z beach: Oh, you mean that it is surprising that SLOT-VALUE is used at all.
2016-02-29T05:30:41Z beach: I agree.
2016-02-29T05:30:44Z drmeister: Yes.
2016-02-29T05:31:00Z drmeister: Might it be part of the AST copying code?
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2016-02-29T05:31:18Z drmeister: Hmm, I can search for it.
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2016-02-29T05:31:33Z beach: I don't think I ever use SLOT-VALUE.
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2016-02-29T05:31:49Z beach: But it might be used implicitly by your system to implement accessors.
2016-02-29T05:32:13Z beach: It would not be a great implementation of CLOS that does that, but it is possible.
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2016-02-29T05:35:54Z drmeister: I don't know where it might be used - I'm looking into it.
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2016-02-29T05:37:10Z drmeister: What is CLEAVIR-METER:INVOKE-WITH-METER ?
2016-02-29T05:37:35Z beach: Performance stuff.
2016-02-29T05:39:14Z drmeister: Thats earlier in the call chain followed by CLEAVIR-AST:CHILDREN which is almost directly before SLOT-VALUE
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2016-02-29T05:39:48Z beach: The metering stuff does not touch the ASTs.
2016-02-29T05:40:16Z beach: It sounds like the call to the slot reader ends up calling slot-value.
2016-02-29T05:40:34Z beach: That is indeed one possible implementation of accessors, but it is not going to be fast.
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2016-02-29T05:42:16Z drmeister: Hmm, It is in CLONE-AST
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2016-02-29T05:43:58Z drmeister: beach: Thanks - I'm on it.
2016-02-29T05:44:18Z beach: There are no calls to slot-value in the cloning code.
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2016-02-29T05:44:51Z beach: But it uses other unusual stuff such as REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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2016-02-29T05:49:17Z drmeister: This bug has manifested itself several times now after inlining kicks in and it's always an AST node with an unbound slot.
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2016-02-29T05:50:14Z beach: It is possible that there is some SAVE info missing.
2016-02-29T05:50:26Z beach: In that case, then the slot won't get initialized when the AST is cloned.
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2016-02-29T05:51:28Z beach: Can you tell what type the AST nodes with uninitialized slots have?
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2016-02-29T06:24:17Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: I've included only CL aspirants there, I believe LispMachineLisp wasn't CL at all. Regarding the Genera, it's in grey, so it's marked as obsolete/abandoned already
2016-02-29T06:24:22Z jackdaniel: good morning all
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2016-02-29T06:24:35Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2016-02-29T06:25:09Z drmeister: beach: I've seen PROGN-AST and TAGBODY-AST
2016-02-29T06:25:42Z beach: drmeister: It is unlikely that it would be due to missing SAVE-INFO in that case.
2016-02-29T06:25:48Z drmeister: But it's pretty clearly a problem with the GC.   Boehm doesn't have this problem.
2016-02-29T06:26:20Z drmeister: There is a thread here - or a coincidence.
2016-02-29T06:26:54Z drmeister: I'm setting up some code to walk all of memory and test every object - maybe I can learn something from that.
2016-02-29T06:27:30Z drmeister: Are there any new developments with Cleavir and debug info?
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2016-02-29T06:28:51Z beach: Yes, but nothing that is currently "activated" because it is not ready.
2016-02-29T06:29:14Z drmeister: No problem.
2016-02-29T06:29:36Z beach: I am working on an entire "library" to manipulate source code in the form of CSTs (Concrete Syntax Trees)
2016-02-29T06:30:35Z beach: It is a parallel to the existing Code utilities.  The existing ones work on source code as S-expressions.
2016-02-29T06:31:00Z beach: So I have to do the lambda-list parsing all over again :(
2016-02-29T06:31:15Z beach: This time, I am thinking of using SMUG to make it easier on me.
2016-02-29T06:31:44Z beach: At the same time, it will be more general.  The existing lambda-list parsers don't allow implementation-specific lambda-list keywords.
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2016-02-29T06:41:00Z aeth: jackdaniel: You're right. Lisp Machine Lisp wasn't CL. It had/has its own chinual (for "Machine Manual") that you can read here: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
2016-02-29T06:41:11Z aeth: And it's definitely not CL.
2016-02-29T06:41:19Z aeth: I think later Lispms supported CL, though.
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2016-02-29T06:43:32Z drmeister: SMUG?
2016-02-29T06:44:08Z drmeister: I see, a parser
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2016-02-29T06:46:22Z jackdaniel: ECL 16.1.2 has been released :) [https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/#16.1.2] could anyone bump version in the topic?
2016-02-29T06:46:25Z beach: Not a parser.  A parser framework.
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2016-02-29T06:47:27Z beach: drmeister: Sorry, got to go.  Monday mornings are crazy around here.
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2016-02-29T07:07:30Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: here's the really ugly graph of licenses per lisp engines based on your diagram: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79094972/lisp%20graph%20CbBaHKsWwAQoUE5.jpg%20large.xcf
2016-02-29T07:07:42Z Lord_Nightmare: sorry i couldn't make it look nicer :(
2016-02-29T07:08:29Z Lord_Nightmare: also codemist, does axiom count as a fork of codemist?
2016-02-29T07:08:41Z Lord_Nightmare: since axiom is sort of like macsyma/maxima
2016-02-29T07:08:47Z Lord_Nightmare: but runs lisp as its backend
2016-02-29T07:09:15Z Lord_Nightmare: see http://lisp.codemist.co.uk/ but i can't figure out what license that code is considered to be under at all
2016-02-29T07:09:39Z Lord_Nightmare: axiom is under a BSD variant, but not sure what codemist is under
2016-02-29T07:09:53Z Lord_Nightmare: and codemist confusingly calls itself CCL
2016-02-29T07:10:03Z jackdaniel: I would call it an application (maxima and axiom)
2016-02-29T07:10:08Z jackdaniel: thanks!
2016-02-29T07:10:54Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by Allegro being COMMERCIAL/LLGPL?
2016-02-29T07:11:10Z Lord_Nightmare: some parts of it are commercial, some parts are LLGPL
2016-02-29T07:11:16Z Lord_Nightmare: i couldn't tell where the split was
2016-02-29T07:11:25Z jackdaniel: and what does "->" mean with Clozure?
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2016-02-29T07:11:34Z Lord_Nightmare: oh, the license changed just a month ago
2016-02-29T07:11:41Z jackdaniel: ah, didn't know that
2016-02-29T07:11:44Z Lord_Nightmare: was LLGPL, now APACHE2
2016-02-29T07:11:51Z loke: jackdaniel: You mean Clojure?
2016-02-29T07:12:07Z Lord_Nightmare: ccl license change mail: https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2016-January/011174.html
2016-02-29T07:12:08Z jackdaniel: loke: Clozure Common Lisp, known as CCL
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2016-02-29T07:12:25Z loke: jackdaniel: I was not aware of CCL having a function ->
2016-02-29T07:12:28Z loke: Clojure does, though
2016-02-29T07:12:41Z jackdaniel: loke: I was referring to Lord_Nightmare's annotations on the xcf file
2016-02-29T07:12:55Z loke: Oh
2016-02-29T07:13:56Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: do you have any text version of these licenses? I would gladly include it in the next ECL Quarterly as a comment regarding the chart
2016-02-29T07:14:20Z jackdaniel: (and, of course, do you agree to include it, and how should I credit you)
2016-02-29T07:14:32Z Lord_Nightmare: the GPLV2+'13' thing is the gplv2 license with an added clause clarifying that all derivative works whether statically or dynamically linked are still subject to gpl
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2016-02-29T07:15:23Z jackdaniel: doesn't GPLv2 guarantee that anyway?
2016-02-29T07:15:28Z Lord_Nightmare: yes
2016-02-29T07:15:33Z Lord_Nightmare: but it was a grey area for a long time
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2016-02-29T07:15:43Z Lord_Nightmare: its superfluous with modern interpretations of the gplv2
2016-02-29T07:15:43Z jackdaniel: additionally abcl has a classpath exception
2016-02-29T07:16:00Z jackdaniel: so you actually can link with it without imposing GPL on the other jar's
2016-02-29T07:16:10Z p_l: Lord_Nightmare: interestingly enough, "derivative work" is still unclear, so the license still has grey area
2016-02-29T07:16:36Z jackdaniel: p_l: could you bump ECL version in topic? 16.1.2
2016-02-29T07:16:44Z p_l: moment
2016-02-29T07:17:28Z Lord_Nightmare: i didn't collect copies of the licenses when i was hunting this stuff down though i bookmarked most of the pages
2016-02-29T07:17:41Z Lord_Nightmare: maybe i should make a big excel sheet with actual links to licenses
2016-02-29T07:17:54Z Lord_Nightmare: at least one thing i had to pull license from archive.org because google code is dead
2016-02-29T07:18:09Z jackdaniel: that would be great. Also, I think there is no need to mark licenses for the non-leafs
2016-02-29T07:18:27Z jackdaniel: unless they are still active (i.e. not grey)
2016-02-29T07:19:13Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2016-02-29T07:19:14Z Lord_Nightmare: well, DKS is maintaining a couple dozen opengenera boxes for government stuff as the last vestige of symbolics inc, i doubt that counts as 'active' since i don't think there's been any changes to opengenera since 1998
2016-02-29T07:19:24Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|ECL 16.1.2, SBCL 1.3.0, ASDF 3.1.6, CMUCL 21a, CFFI 0.16.0, cl-launch 4.1.4, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
2016-02-29T07:19:35Z jackdaniel: p_l: thanks!
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2016-02-29T07:20:01Z p_l: Lord_Nightmare: I'm not sure, but I think the PPC G5 port was "official" work
2016-02-29T07:20:18Z Lord_Nightmare: there is actually some new dev from symbolics inc
2016-02-29T07:20:18Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: here is the most current diagram (note it won't render in firefox, it's inkscape svg)
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2016-02-29T07:20:33Z Lord_Nightmare: a new official port of VLM from the dec alpha codebase to linux
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2016-02-29T07:20:41Z Lord_Nightmare: it hasn't been released yet
2016-02-29T07:20:44Z p_l: no, the G5 port was for OSX
2016-02-29T07:20:57Z p_l: the linux port was never done as part official work, afaik
2016-02-29T07:21:03Z Lord_Nightmare: huh, didn't know about the G5 port
2016-02-29T07:21:17Z Lord_Nightmare: i heard there is development on an 'official' linux port
2016-02-29T07:21:27Z Lord_Nightmare: using none of the code of the current hacked up port
2016-02-29T07:21:43Z p_l: interestingly enough, the bits of G5 code in VLM sources that float on the net are written in the same way as original Alpha code
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2016-02-29T07:22:03Z Lord_Nightmare: i.e. someone working under mallery and DKS (who i believe are the owner and last employee of symbolics inc as it stands)
2016-02-29T07:22:07Z p_l: while the infamous x86-64 port is based about making the compiler generate C
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2016-02-29T07:22:34Z Lord_Nightmare: yeah, theres likely some source hidden around somewhere
2016-02-29T07:22:41Z p_l: Lord_Nightmare: DKS has distribution rights, but isn't owner of symbolics IP. How the licensing situation was resolved, I have no idea.
2016-02-29T07:22:56Z p_l: https://github.com/hanshuebner/vlm
2016-02-29T07:23:06Z Lord_Nightmare: DKS is employed by mallery, who i believe DOES own the symbolics IP
2016-02-29T07:23:13Z Lord_Nightmare: or so i've gathered
2016-02-29T07:23:15Z H4ns: as far as i understand, someone with a vlm source license asked clozure to port the code to linux.
2016-02-29T07:23:28Z Lord_Nightmare: i believe he obtained it after topping died during the selloff of his estate
2016-02-29T07:23:32Z p_l: some bits of code that predate VLM but are involved in VLM can be found on Genera 8.3 CD
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2016-02-29T07:23:49Z H4ns: so, as far as i understand again, we're not shortly before a release of genera for linux, as the license is bound to a particular legal entity.
2016-02-29T07:24:13Z Lord_Nightmare: i'm just saying what i've heard
2016-02-29T07:24:16Z Lord_Nightmare: i could be wrong
2016-02-29T07:24:26Z Lord_Nightmare: unless mallery managed to sort out the horrible mess that topping left in his wake
2016-02-29T07:24:43Z p_l: Lord_Nightmare: Military doesn't own the IP, but there is some specific contract for DoD. I don't remember who exactly has most probable legal rights to Genera IP (M.?).
2016-02-29T07:24:59Z Lord_Nightmare: some speculation that symbolics ip was owned partly by the state of delaware or the IRS
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2016-02-29T07:25:08Z Lord_Nightmare: due to unpaid taxes and lapse of the delaware corporation
2016-02-29T07:25:12Z Lord_Nightmare: in 1999
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2016-02-29T07:25:33Z p_l: well, we can wait ~70 more years or so
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2016-02-29T07:25:55Z p_l: assuming Mickey Mouse law doesn't make an extension
2016-02-29T07:26:15Z Lord_Nightmare: its 95 years for stuff after 1979
2016-02-29T07:26:45Z p_l: so they already extended it?
2016-02-29T07:26:58Z H4ns: we can also shrug off the license, inspect the code and recognize that it is crap anyway :D
2016-02-29T07:27:13Z p_l: H4ns: hahaha, true
2016-02-29T07:27:42Z p_l: that said, some stuff I wouldn't mind resurfacing in a clean Common Lisp (instead of mixed up ZetaLisp/Sybolics CL) library
2016-02-29T07:27:55Z p_l: good for inspiration
2016-02-29T07:27:56Z Lord_Nightmare: was extended from 75 to 95 years in 1998, the mickey mouse^W^Wsonny bono copyright extension act
2016-02-29T07:28:14Z H4ns: i can get my inspiration without having a license.
2016-02-29T07:28:15Z Lord_Nightmare: 2018 will probably be extended to 115 years
2016-02-29T07:28:42Z Lord_Nightmare: depends on congress and how much they've been bribed
2016-02-29T07:29:25Z Lord_Nightmare: in fact it doesn't even need congress, the TPP means the tribunal can decide
2016-02-29T07:29:44Z Lord_Nightmare: company sues the country because their valuable copyirght is about to expire
2016-02-29T07:29:54Z Lord_Nightmare: tribunal can decide to extend copyright
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2016-02-29T07:30:51Z p_l: aaaaand that's the stuff that makes my dirty dreams of using armed drones to fire at corporate lawyers resurface
2016-02-29T07:31:12Z p_l: tl;dr it's not healthy
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2016-02-29T07:39:48Z flip214: "IP lawyers were the first against the wall when the revolution came" .... THHGTTG, or so I seem to remember.                 (yes, sirius cybernetics corp., sorry ;)
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2016-02-29T08:24:18Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79094972/lisp%20list.xlsx - working onlist
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2016-02-29T08:27:32Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: also scieneer is misspelled on your chart
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2016-02-29T08:54:45Z jackdaniel: thanks, corrected
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2016-02-29T09:23:09Z loke: Hello peoples
2016-02-29T09:23:29Z loke: Do any of you guys use Slime-fuzzy-complete?
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2016-02-29T09:34:12Z attila_lendvai: loke: since forever
2016-02-29T09:35:11Z loke: attila_lendvai: Ah cool. Have you ever seen a problem where, after selecting something from the fuzzy complete, you end up with two open buffers in the same file (instead of whatever was in the buffer prior to you opening the fuzzy complete)
2016-02-29T09:35:12Z loke: ?
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2016-02-29T09:36:36Z attila_lendvai: loke: not that I remember. the only glitches I experience sometimes if when I navigate away while the fuzzy window is open... but that's how it's expected to work, so I just shouldn't do that.
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2016-02-29T09:37:40Z loke: attila_lendvai: Hmm, OK. I suspected no one else faced it, since it's incredibly annoying when it happens. It never happens twice in a row, and I'd say it ahppens a few times per day. Just enough to make is crazy hard to debug, but often enough to drive me crazy.
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2016-02-29T10:21:22Z John[Lisbeth]: It's been a very long five year journey starting with javascript, and going through python, c++, bash, haskell, C#, and ultimately ending up with lisp.
2016-02-29T10:21:53Z John[Lisbeth]: I spent the last probably six months deciding between haskell, ocaml, and lisp.
2016-02-29T10:22:33Z lieven: what's the verdict? the suspense is killing us :)
2016-02-29T10:22:46Z Shinmera: Why not all of 'em
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2016-02-29T10:22:56Z John[Lisbeth]: Common lisp is superior, but scheme is more modern.
2016-02-29T10:23:18Z jdz: oO
2016-02-29T10:23:48Z John[Lisbeth]: And I can forsee myself inventing lots of toy lisps in the future, even though I know that's the opposite of what the community needs.
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2016-02-29T10:25:20Z John[Lisbeth]: I think that lisp is the ultimate culmination of the unix way in terms of piping small programs together using the | symbol to redirect input ttowards the right. Lisp simply makes this a compiled language, has a more regular syntax, and uses higher order functions rather than pipes.
2016-02-29T10:25:48Z John[Lisbeth]: My ultimate quest is to have a shell which uses ( and ) for redirection instead of |
2016-02-29T10:27:23Z lieven: Interesting POV since Lisp systems are often seen as the antithesis of Unix. Worse is better and its various follow up papers.
2016-02-29T10:27:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I think object oriented class libraries, unix pipes, and higher order functions are all trying to solve the same problem.
2016-02-29T10:28:04Z John[Lisbeth]: Which is the reusability of code.
2016-02-29T10:28:26Z jdz: lieven: not to forget the unix haters handbook
2016-02-29T10:28:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I also ended up being an emacser, although I dislike emacs for not supporting curses
2016-02-29T10:29:16Z jdz: what do you mean?
2016-02-29T10:29:34Z jdz: emacs -nw and hack away
2016-02-29T10:29:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Does that work for the no-x version?
2016-02-29T10:29:53Z John[Lisbeth]: I need it to run over ssh.
2016-02-29T10:30:02Z Shinmera: It works just fine
2016-02-29T10:30:18Z John[Lisbeth]: what is the equivelant of using the -nw option but from within emacs?
2016-02-29T10:30:31Z Shinmera: What?
2016-02-29T10:30:51Z John[Lisbeth]: Lets say instead of emacs -nw I type /bin/bash emacs RET
2016-02-29T10:30:55Z John[Lisbeth]: oops I'm already inside emacs
2016-02-29T10:31:05Z John[Lisbeth]: now I want to enter the -nw mode
2016-02-29T10:31:23Z Shinmera: It's not a "mode". It tells emacs whether to use the curses interface or not.
2016-02-29T10:31:55Z John[Lisbeth]: You should be able to toggle it from within emacs
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2016-02-29T10:32:33Z lieven: if you're interested in pipes, you should checkout the Hartmann pipeline system as it was implementen in CMS pipelines and has had a few ports since then
2016-02-29T10:34:07Z John[Lisbeth]: I think pipes are an inferior interface because they only move in one direction, and are really only good for plugging programs' io together.
2016-02-29T10:35:21Z Shinmera: The problem with pipes is that they need serialisation.
2016-02-29T10:35:38Z lieven: pipelines don't have these limitations. they're a form of multiprocessing where you can have a general graph as the connection
2016-02-29T10:36:00Z John[Lisbeth]: There's always bitbashing
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2016-02-29T10:37:03Z lieven: http://grothoff.org/christian/teaching/2008/4704/rexx91-007.pdf
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2016-02-29T10:42:14Z ralt: I did a mix of both in my custom shell: | (cat foo) (grep bar)
2016-02-29T10:42:30Z ralt: (well, "cat foo | grep bar" also works)
2016-02-29T10:42:54Z ralt: I need to add support to inline lisp snippets though...
2016-02-29T10:43:40Z John[Lisbeth]: People keep telling me slime is the most amazing thing so I'm trying to learn lisp so that I can learn emacs so that I can get slime working.
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2016-02-29T11:03:07Z lerax: I like sly instead slime, www.github.com/capitaomorte/sly.
2016-02-29T11:04:37Z JuanDaugherty: is it tracking slime?
2016-02-29T11:07:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I've got a book on BASH, and after I learn bash I am going to possibly learn ZSH and FISH, then Perl, awk and sed at the same time, then eshell, then slime
2016-02-29T11:07:37Z John[Lisbeth]: And eventually I'm gonna have to learn powershell for university
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2016-02-29T11:12:58Z lerax: JuanDaugherty: yes, is a fork of slime with some cool improvements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWkVvubnSI
2016-02-29T11:13:46Z JuanDaugherty: lerax, ah
2016-02-29T11:14:10Z JuanDaugherty: John[Lisbeth], you might want to look at scsh too
2016-02-29T11:15:21Z John[Lisbeth]: I have really tough requirements and not all of them may be met for any shell.
2016-02-29T11:16:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I want it to be the main login shell on a production system
2016-02-29T11:16:29Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm looking for the shell that can knock out bash.
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2016-02-29T13:22:48Z JuanDaugherty: anybody tried to port copycat to modern lisp?
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2016-02-29T13:28:43Z splittist: JuanDaugherty: isn't the main bitrot in the graphics code?
2016-02-29T13:29:08Z JuanDaugherty: that's what wiki says, just downloaded so looking at sources
2016-02-29T13:29:38Z JuanDaugherty: prolly some cl snags too
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2016-02-29T13:30:30Z splittist: JuanDaugherty: but perhaps easier to fix than the ports to Java and Python were to write (:
2016-02-29T13:30:44Z JuanDaugherty: i wouldn't even consider them
2016-02-29T13:31:00Z JuanDaugherty: irrlehre
2016-02-29T13:31:06Z JuanDaugherty: wrongheadedness
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2016-02-29T13:33:29Z JuanDaugherty: yeah the graphics is lucid dependent so that would have to be rewritten
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2016-02-29T13:36:05Z splittist: Graphics systems rot even faster than multiprocessing paradigms...
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2016-02-29T13:44:51Z JuanDaugherty: the graphics stuff is about a third of the total SLOC but the part that would have to be retargetted is small
2016-02-29T13:45:10Z JuanDaugherty: roughly 15 KSLOC total
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2016-02-29T14:39:18Z pavelpenev: I've seen a bunch of projects now that use a one package per file style, rather than having packages span several files. I've favored the second aproach, but mostly because that's what other projects were doing, rather than giving it much thought. Can I get some more opinions on the matter?
2016-02-29T14:40:02Z Xach_: pavelpenev: which projects?
2016-02-29T14:40:21Z pavelpenev: Xach_: well, the one I'm looking at now is caveman2
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2016-02-29T14:40:33Z pavelpenev: but I've seen a bunch
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2016-02-29T14:41:27Z DeadTrickster: the only reason I see is build automation
2016-02-29T14:41:59Z DeadTrickster: but probably iff package name follows file name
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2016-02-29T14:43:34Z igam: pavelpenev: both can be used.
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2016-02-29T14:44:28Z igam: pavelpenev: I would say that it works better if you avoid making too small packages (ie. don't make packages for subcomponents or submodules, only for modules).
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2016-02-29T14:50:29Z warweasle: Are there any examples of using screamer for logic programming? Such as creating a prolog style database of rules and running queries?
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2016-02-29T14:51:21Z warweasle: Or is there a better tool for doing logic programming? gambol seems immature at this time...
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2016-02-29T14:54:04Z splittist: warweasle: prolog?
2016-02-29T14:54:52Z warweasle: splittist: I would prefer to use lisp, since that's what the rest of my application is written in.
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2016-02-29T14:55:12Z splittist: paiprolog?
2016-02-29T14:55:21Z lieven: take a look at poplog
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2016-02-29T14:56:39Z warweasle: lieven: Does poplog implement lisp or is it written in lisp?
2016-02-29T14:56:47Z jackdaniel: it does implement
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2016-02-29T14:57:12Z jackdaniel: it provides common runtime environment for a bunch of languages it provides
2016-02-29T14:57:22Z jackdaniel: s/provides$/implements/g
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2016-02-29T14:57:47Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I was hoping to use it for dynamic game logic with my game-engine.
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2016-02-29T14:58:11Z jackdaniel: I've tried to build it recently (not tried hard though) – had some problems
2016-02-29T14:58:19Z jackdaniel: and abandoned the effort
2016-02-29T14:58:23Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Poplog or clinch?
2016-02-29T14:58:27Z jackdaniel: poplog
2016-02-29T14:59:19Z jackdaniel: also, swi-prolog provides C interface, so you could work with it with CFFI
2016-02-29T14:59:30Z warweasle: jackdaniel: That might work.
2016-02-29T14:59:38Z jackdaniel: or natively with ECL, but you're probably interested in a portable setup
2016-02-29T15:00:54Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Yes, but I think I might be able to use screamer or cl-unification. But there has to be a better way to do logic programming.
2016-02-29T15:01:41Z Heranort: wish that main-stream game engine like unity or unreal had lisp implements..well just a dream
2016-02-29T15:02:08Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I consider using swi-prolog via CFFI as a portable solutions, since CFFI spans various implementations
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2016-02-29T15:02:36Z lieven: warweasle: poplog is written in pop11 but defines a virtual machine so it hosts native and interoperating implementations of lisp and prolog too
2016-02-29T15:02:44Z warweasle: Heranort: Well, that's my goal. I just got meshes to load with classimp. I'll likely have that merged into the clinch-0.6 branch soon.
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2016-02-29T15:03:27Z warweasle: lieven: I would hate to move away from sbcl right now. It would be easier to just write my own logic lib.
2016-02-29T15:03:32Z jackdaniel: Heranort: if these engines are C/C++, you could potentially build them with ECL (it's simply a *.so library)
2016-02-29T15:03:37Z Heranort: warweasle: cool! that may change the world of lisp programming.
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2016-02-29T15:04:49Z Heranort: i've been considering ECL for some times, but keep worrying about the memory management.
2016-02-29T15:05:02Z jackdaniel: Heranort: what do you mean?
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2016-02-29T15:05:44Z Heranort: well my C programs are often memory-fragile.
2016-02-29T15:06:02Z warweasle: Heranort: I hope to live-code games. I'm still a ways away from a professional level engine, but I do have support for 3D, physics, threading, controllers, music, image loading, vector graphics drawing and rich text. Once I get meshes tested properly, that will be another feather in it's hat.
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2016-02-29T15:06:14Z jackdaniel: but why do you think ECL may infridge your programs?
2016-02-29T15:06:42Z Heranort: jackdaniel: absolutely more robust than my code XD
2016-02-29T15:07:35Z Heranort: warweasle: maybe i can help testing them when you work out an alpha version!
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2016-02-29T15:09:14Z warweasle: Heranort: I hope with each feature I'll gain another developer, but so far, the lisp curse is in effect. It seems everyone is only interested in making their own engine. I made a game in the game jam, a mix between marble-madness and pacman.
2016-02-29T15:09:47Z warweasle: Heranort: But maybe something a little more "real" will help attract people.
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2016-02-29T15:11:57Z Heranort: well honestly speaking i am not experienced in lisp programming and i usually call myself an intermediate. but i do hope the chance to do some real programming.
2016-02-29T15:12:39Z ralt: this may be a stupid question, but well...
2016-02-29T15:12:48Z ralt: can you have a swank server in ECL?
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2016-02-29T15:13:00Z ralt: since it compiles Lisp to C, it means it'd have to embed the runtime too...
2016-02-29T15:13:02Z Heranort: seems too many lispers are made themselves tool-happy.
2016-02-29T15:13:16Z optikalmouse: Heranort: in which way?
2016-02-29T15:13:18Z warweasle: ralt: Yes; and there are no stupid questions.
2016-02-29T15:13:34Z jackdaniel: ralt: yeah, ECL works fine with swank
2016-02-29T15:13:41Z ralt: ok, cool
2016-02-29T15:13:54Z jackdaniel: you may check https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android - you connect from slime emacs on the target android device
2016-02-29T15:13:59Z jackdaniel: and you have "normal" lisp
2016-02-29T15:14:20Z jackdaniel: also, ECL wouldn't work with slime without swank
2016-02-29T15:14:30Z jackdaniel: (none implementation would)
2016-02-29T15:14:53Z ralt: definitely
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2016-02-29T15:15:03Z Heranort: optikalmouse: well there are many fragments of personal projects, hard to use and no longer supported
2016-02-29T15:15:12Z ralt: so it does embed the runtime... that's nice
2016-02-29T15:15:23Z jackdaniel: ralt: ECL is mainly a shared object (libecl.so), you may check with ldd on the ecl binary
2016-02-29T15:15:26Z ralt: I'll have to test something with it...
2016-02-29T15:15:29Z jackdaniel: (it may be statically linked though)
2016-02-29T15:15:30Z attila_lendvai: ecl has a bytecode compiler/interpreter, so you don't need to go the full lisp->C->gcc->dlopen circle
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2016-02-29T15:15:54Z Heranort: optikalmouse: so much personal trials.
2016-02-29T15:15:54Z jackdaniel: yet, there is also bytecmp, which is used on Android (which doesn't have gcc on-board)
2016-02-29T15:16:00Z jackdaniel: s/yet/yeah/
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2016-02-29T15:16:48Z optikalmouse: Heranort: true, I'm having that issue for all work projects when using emacs, I end up writing custom code to support them and can't hardly reuse the tools or support them
2016-02-29T15:17:56Z Heranort: optikalmouse: yeah and that is what i think that prevents lisp from moving faster forwards.
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2016-02-29T15:19:14Z Heranort: jackdaniel: what is the meaning of embedded lisp? is it that you can call C functions in lisp or calling lisp functions in C?
2016-02-29T15:19:22Z jackdaniel: Heranort: both
2016-02-29T15:19:27Z jackdaniel: they share the runtime
2016-02-29T15:20:10Z Heranort: jackdaniel: so when you use embedded lisp, which side would you mainly work on?
2016-02-29T15:20:11Z jackdaniel: so you can interactively recompile and test C functions from lisp for instance
2016-02-29T15:20:31Z Heranort: that couldn't be better....
2016-02-29T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: hm, it depends. If I can pick the technoogy, I opt to only Common-Lisp and I use faster implementation
2016-02-29T15:21:39Z igam: Heranort: the meaning is that you embed CL in a normal program (application), as a mere library libecl.so, just like libc.so.
2016-02-29T15:21:42Z jackdaniel: but when I have to work with C/C++ codebase, then I use ECL
2016-02-29T15:21:48Z igam: or libobjc.so
2016-02-29T15:22:06Z igam: so "embedded Objective-C", "embedded C", "embedded Common Lisp".
2016-02-29T15:22:11Z jackdaniel: igam: did you read the post on ML (regarding build for iPhone?)
2016-02-29T15:22:22Z igam: jackdaniel: not yet, I'm at work.
2016-02-29T15:22:42Z jackdaniel: right, let me know if it helped when you do
2016-02-29T15:23:02Z igam: I've see you say "thanks, corrected" here, but I wasn't sure it was about it :-)
2016-02-29T15:23:11Z igam: I will. Thanks.
2016-02-29T15:23:42Z igam making a pause in #lisp between two Jenkins/MacOSX/iOS configurations…
2016-02-29T15:23:55Z jackdaniel: "thanks, corrected" was about CL implementations diagram
2016-02-29T15:24:02Z igam: ok.
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2016-02-29T15:24:54Z igam: jackdaniel: I think it'll be more valuable to have libecl on Android and iOS than standalone ecl executable.
2016-02-29T15:25:06Z jackdaniel: igam: ecl-android works as a library
2016-02-29T15:25:18Z igam: That's good.
2016-02-29T15:25:18Z jackdaniel: I don't have any iOS device, so I'm not able to work on it though
2016-02-29T15:25:59Z igam: jackdaniel: before you have one, you can use the iOS simulator (but it runs with x86 or x86_64).
2016-02-29T15:26:26Z jackdaniel: I've written to someone who ported it to iOS if he could point out his repository
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2016-02-29T15:26:49Z igam: 3
2016-02-29T15:27:00Z igam: jackdaniel: do you have a MacOSX system to develop at least?
2016-02-29T15:27:26Z jackdaniel: no, I can't afford (neither won't to for personal convictions) to buy apple devices
2016-02-29T15:27:48Z jackdaniel: s/won't/want/
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2016-02-29T15:28:21Z igam: It's sure that you have to pinch your nose…  Not being able to share code from the Internet on iOS is a problem for us developers :-)
2016-02-29T15:28:57Z jackdaniel: "to pinch your nose" – could you explain this idiom to me? :)
2016-02-29T15:29:09Z igam: So you don't smell the bad odors :-)
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2016-02-29T15:29:15Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
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2016-02-29T15:29:48Z igam: Seems they say "tp hold your nose" in English.  "Se pincer le nez" in French.
2016-02-29T15:29:53Z igam: s/tp/to/
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2016-02-29T15:34:14Z JuanDaugherty: pince-nez were a kind of eye glasses
2016-02-29T15:34:21Z JuanDaugherty: that sat on ur nose
2016-02-29T15:34:29Z JuanDaugherty: think mahler had
2016-02-29T15:34:53Z JuanDaugherty: big in 19th century
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2016-02-29T15:36:37Z JuanDaugherty: but the idiom likely refers to doing something distasteful
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2016-02-29T15:37:06Z JuanDaugherty: that's the common meaning of "holding your nose" to do something, because it stinks
2016-02-29T15:37:19Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
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2016-02-29T15:37:47Z igam: JuanDaugherty: do you infer that in the 19th century there were a lot of bad odors in the streets so they prefered this kind of dual-effect olfacto-optical aids? :-)
2016-02-29T15:38:04Z JuanDaugherty: igess
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2016-02-29T15:38:57Z lerax: One thing I really link of CL is the possibility to do dark things about the support of multiple name spaces, like that: https://asciinema.org/a/c0ke77hngbbnxx1hj7axvm015
2016-02-29T15:39:03Z lerax: like*
2016-02-29T15:40:03Z jackdaniel: this example is pretty bad. Using same name for variable and function is very misleading
2016-02-29T15:40:11Z jackdaniel: for someone who reads the code
2016-02-29T15:40:55Z igam: lerax: that's nothing. There are many more namespaces in CL. http://paste.lisp.org/display/155338
2016-02-29T15:41:50Z Zhivago: Same identifier, rather than variable.
2016-02-29T15:41:57Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: right, my bad
2016-02-29T15:42:19Z Zhivago: Although I don't really agree about the namespaces thing, since there's only the one name.
2016-02-29T15:43:09Z lerax: Is really fun for doing troll things. If the purpose is do dark codes, we really can do well that.
2016-02-29T15:43:13Z lerax: igam: NICE
2016-02-29T15:43:15Z jackdaniel: I believe he meant "multiple environments" (I hope it's a correct term in this context)
2016-02-29T15:43:46Z igam: lerax: try to guess what it does before evaluating it: (flet ((foo (when funcall) (when (< 3 when) (funcall funcall)) when)) (loop :named funcall :for funcall :from 1 :collect (foo funcall (lambda () (loop-finish)))))
2016-02-29T15:43:51Z Zhivago: That would be a more apt expression.
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2016-02-29T15:44:45Z lerax: igam: that is really sickly
2016-02-29T15:45:06Z igam: jackdaniel: well, environment already has two meanings in CL.  There are the compilation environment/run-time environment/startup environment/macro-expansion environments.  And there is the global environment vs. the local (lexical) environments obtained with &environment.
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2016-02-29T15:45:36Z igam: lerax: with better names, it actually demonstrates a cool feature of CL loop: it can be termined by a called high level function.
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2016-02-29T15:46:00Z igam: s/level/order/
2016-02-29T15:46:14Z jackdaniel: I'll be back later, have a nice afternoon everyone o/
2016-02-29T15:47:29Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/347 --- looks like either a Quicklisp problem (unlikely) or a UIOP problem (more likely), but I guess uiop version is made available by QL, right?
2016-02-29T15:49:44Z igam: dim: yes.
2016-02-29T15:50:13Z igam: Definitely go look in the indicated file.
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2016-02-29T15:54:21Z dim: igam: I'd better warn Xach_ that current QL release makes it impossible to build pgloader
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2016-02-29T16:12:41Z Xach_: dim: i built pgloader before making the release...that's how i test
2016-02-29T16:13:57Z Xach_: dim: i wonder what version of sbcl it is.
2016-02-29T16:14:39Z dim: yeah, dunno, I'm quite surprised by the failure here
2016-02-29T16:14:52Z Xach_: is sb-debug:print-backtrace in 1.3.2?
2016-02-29T16:14:57Z dim: I would advice using pgloader master's branch but I doubt it'd help
2016-02-29T16:15:12Z Xach_: it's in 1.2.3
2016-02-29T16:15:25Z Xach_ checks 1.3.2
2016-02-29T16:15:50Z Xach_: it's in 1.3.2 and 1.3.3
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2016-02-29T16:15:54Z Xach_: dim: i suspect a very old sbcl.
2016-02-29T16:16:28Z dim: thanks, just added a question about that on the bugreport
2016-02-29T16:16:52Z Xach_: dim: oh snap
2016-02-29T16:17:06Z dim should now finish packing (real stuff, not just lisp images)
2016-02-29T16:17:06Z Xach_: dim: it recommends sb-ext:quit in the error message. that's from the 1.0.56 days.
2016-02-29T16:17:11Z Xach_: or older
2016-02-29T16:17:21Z dim: ok, ubuntu 14.04 default sbcl version here, I guess
2016-02-29T16:17:24Z Xach_: sb-ext:exit is the thing since then.
2016-02-29T16:17:45Z dim: maybe I should add an explicit error message about that at pgloader load time so that the build fails early
2016-02-29T16:18:41Z dim: anyway, thanks for the help! running to catch a plane, see you all ;-)
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2016-02-29T16:43:35Z DeadTrickster: Xach_, do you plan to include cl-bunny into upcoming QL release?
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2016-02-29T16:43:56Z DeadTrickster: it is still tagged as needs info
2016-02-29T16:44:01Z loke`: re
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2016-02-29T16:47:37Z Xach_: DeadTrickster: I'll check
2016-02-29T16:50:15Z DeadTrickster: Xach_, thx do you have specific date in mind ?
2016-02-29T16:50:31Z Xach_: DeadTrickster: I try to do it on the first weekend of each month
2016-02-29T16:50:41Z Xach_: DeadTrickster: that is what i have in mind for March
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2016-02-29T17:17:42Z malice: Hey! I want to iterate over an array(2D). What would be the canonical way to do this?
2016-02-29T17:18:11Z reb```: Two loops.
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2016-02-29T17:18:19Z loke`: malice: (loop for x ... do (loop for y ...))
2016-02-29T17:19:08Z Bike: or depending on what you're doing, one loop and row-major-aref.
2016-02-29T17:19:10Z malice: Yeah, but I'm lacking the keyword. (loop for x across *x* ...) says that *x* isn't a vector.
2016-02-29T17:19:21Z Bike: yeah, you can't do that.
2016-02-29T17:19:29Z Bike: you loop over the coordinates and use aref yourself.
2016-02-29T17:19:38Z loke`: malice: (loop for x from 0 below (array-dimension ...)
2016-02-29T17:19:50Z malice: Ah. That's a bummer.
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2016-02-29T17:20:54Z Bike: you could sort of do it with a displaced array, but it's not great.
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2016-02-29T17:21:22Z loke`: also not fast
2016-02-29T17:21:42Z malice: Looping like that will do, although I'm disappointed that you can't get something from an array like this.
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2016-02-29T17:22:57Z loke`: malice: Building a macro to provide som nice sugar for it is trivial
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2016-02-29T17:23:50Z malice: loke`: I'll probably end up doing that. Also, I've heard that you can add new clauses to loop macro, but I've never done that. Is it possible to extend loop to support going over arrays?
2016-02-29T17:24:17Z loke`: malice: No. You can't ITERATE can, though. Or so I've heard
2016-02-29T17:24:17Z Bike: it's not standard, but you can do it in the xerox loop that sbcl and a few other implementations use. i don't know how it works, it's a rarely used mechanism.
2016-02-29T17:24:47Z phoe_krk: I'd suggest ITERATE as it's meant to be extensible.
2016-02-29T17:25:06Z malice: I'll check it out
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2016-02-29T17:32:24Z digiorgi: hi! In a defmacro, how can i capture a global variable from the package where the macro is used?
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2016-02-29T17:36:39Z jasom: digiorgi: I'm not sure I understand the question, what exactly are you trying to do?
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2016-02-29T17:38:29Z malice: Can I use format to loop over an array?
2016-02-29T17:38:49Z malice: That's one evil thought :)
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2016-02-29T17:41:50Z phoe_krk: malice: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17955963/is-there-a-format-directive-to-iterate-over-vectors-in-common-lisp is a working solution
2016-02-29T17:43:15Z digiorgi: jasom, (in-package :foo) (defmacro x () `(variable)) (in-package :bar) (x) => (foo:variable) but i want to expand to (bar:variable)
2016-02-29T17:45:01Z jasom: digiorgi: This sounds like a Bad Idea, but (intern "VARIABLE" *package*) will get you a symbol in the package used at macroexpand time.
2016-02-29T17:45:18Z jasom: digiorgi: you should really only bind variables in your package, or ones passed explicitly by name into your macro
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2016-02-29T17:47:44Z digiorgi: jasom, i am making my custom testing framework, and i'm defining a set of macros that works together. One macro defines a a test suite, and other macros add test to that suite. (:
2016-02-29T17:48:23Z jasom: digiorgi: so pass the name in explicitly
2016-02-29T17:48:47Z malice: phoe_krk: works for vectors, not for arrays :/
2016-02-29T17:48:47Z jasom: e.g. (add-test test-name ...) then test-name will be in the package in which add-test is invoked
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2016-02-29T18:18:29Z jasom: malice: you can create a vector displaced to the array
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2016-02-29T18:21:05Z jasom: (let ((array (make-array '(3 3) :initial-contents '((1 2 3)(4 5 6)(7 8 9))))) (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" (coerce (make-array 9 :displaced-to array) 'list)))
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2016-02-29T18:32:36Z malice: jasom: thanks, this can be useful
2016-02-29T18:33:23Z jasom: note that this is probably much slower (particularly on sbcl) than looping over the array with row-major-aref on
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2016-02-29T18:39:19Z jasom: would you consider macros as introducing new syntax, or not?  From one point of view they only change semantics, as the only meaningful way they differ from a function is that they can control whether-or-not and how many times their arguments are evaluated.  On the other hand, there clearly are valid loop clauses and invalid loop clauses on a level that one would call syntax.
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2016-02-29T18:45:52Z nullx002: hi
2016-02-29T18:46:01Z nullx002: have a small problem with emacs lisp
2016-02-29T18:46:12Z nullx002: http://pastebin.com/YKLvnX34
2016-02-29T18:46:26Z nullx002: i get error: there is no url under point
2016-02-29T18:47:02Z jasom: nullx002: this channel is for Common Lisp, perhaps try asking in #emacs?
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2016-02-29T18:48:11Z nullx002: tried there no response...
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2016-02-29T18:54:47Z rme: Somehow, a pathname from my build machine (it begins with "/Users/rme/.cache/common-lisp/") is leaking into my saved ccl image.  A user reports that when trying load an ASDF system, ASDF tries to create directories #P"/Users/rme/.cache/common-lisp/ccl-1.11-f96-macosx-x64/Users/ddm/sparser/util/package.dx64fsl".
2016-02-29T18:54:51Z rme: Does this ring any bells?
2016-02-29T18:55:07Z rme: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1352 is the bug in question
2016-02-29T18:56:36Z jasom: rme: call asdf:clear-configuration on startup, or use uiop:dump-image for dumping images which does this automatically
2016-02-29T18:56:55Z jasom: rme: and why would you not expect pathnames from your machine to be in an image you saved on your machine?
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2016-02-29T18:58:45Z rme: Well, I don't have ASDF in the saved image, so I'm confused about where it's getting my local pathnames.
2016-02-29T18:59:15Z jasom: rme: are you sure you don't have asdf in the saved image?  I don't recall if ccl loads it by default
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2016-02-29T19:00:02Z rme: According to (list-all-packages) output, it is not there.  (find-package :asdf) returns nil.
2016-02-29T19:00:03Z jasom just checkd and asdf is not loaded with ccl -n
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2016-02-29T19:00:49Z jasom: rme: this list-all-packages is when you load the saved image?
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2016-02-29T19:02:18Z rme: Yes.  The situation in question is the Mac App Store version of CCL that I put into the app store this weekend.  When I start that up and do (list-all-packages), none of ASDF's packages is there.
2016-02-29T19:02:42Z jasom: hmm
2016-02-29T19:02:50Z jasom: I'm not at a mac now so I can't investigate
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2016-02-29T19:20:46Z scymtym: rme: just guessing wildly, but is it possible that CL:USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME uses some cache that is not flushed when the image is restarted? maybe check (uiop:resolve-absolute-location :home) in the restarted image.
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2016-02-29T19:23:27Z dreamaddict: I'm making a small test function to investigate the workings of CFFI, like one .c file with one function that I want to call from Lisp
2016-02-29T19:23:45Z dreamaddict: can I compile the .c file to .o and use define-foreign-library?
2016-02-29T19:24:09Z dreamaddict: or is there a different/easier way if there is just a small bit of C code in a .o file?  or should I compile .o to a lib somehow?
2016-02-29T19:24:10Z jasom: dreamaddict: compile it to a .so
2016-02-29T19:24:14Z dreamaddict: ok
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2016-02-29T20:28:12Z drmeister: Hi lispers.
2016-02-29T20:28:13Z drmeister: It was just suggested to me to walk all objects from the roots to see if the object that causes the error because it contains unbound slots in clasp_mps_o is reachable from the roots.
2016-02-29T20:28:27Z drmeister: I'm having some trouble with my GC.
2016-02-29T20:28:49Z drmeister: I have an idea for how to do that and I wanted to check my thinking.
2016-02-29T20:28:59Z drmeister: I'll insert a counter in the header of each object and recursively walk the pointers from the roots and set that counter to an ever increasing value each time I walk.
2016-02-29T20:29:10Z drmeister: That way I can avoid infinite loops without having to store the address of every object I've seen during the walk.
2016-02-29T20:29:15Z drmeister: Does that sound right?
2016-02-29T20:31:21Z drmeister: Hmm, it immediately occurs to me that I also have to do something with the ambiguous pointers on the stack.  Modifying memory pointed to from the stack that may or may not contain an object is a bad idea.
2016-02-29T20:32:26Z drmeister: That will lead to tears.   Maybe I'll just use a C++ set<void*> to keep track of what the walker has seen.
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2016-02-29T20:37:33Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: btw the document i did is same license as your image
2016-02-29T20:37:34Z p_l: drmeister: set/hashtable?
2016-02-29T20:37:40Z Lord_Nightmare: same with the edited image
2016-02-29T20:38:15Z p_l: drmeister: I'm not well versed in C++, but in CL I'd use a hashtable with EQ-like comparison
2016-02-29T20:38:26Z p_l: using objects for keys and count as value
2016-02-29T20:38:31Z drmeister: p_l: I don't want to use the GC while I'm walking memory.  I want to park the GC and examine all objects that it manages while it's frozen.
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2016-02-29T20:39:10Z p_l: drmeister: "alternate stack" kind of approach?
2016-02-29T20:39:30Z drmeister: p_l: I don't understand.
2016-02-29T20:40:01Z p_l: drmeister: pre-allocated (or otherwise arranged) area that is available for the process without incurring GC issues
2016-02-29T20:40:09Z drmeister: Here's the problem.   Clasp runs fine using the Boehm garbage collector - it doesn't move memory.
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2016-02-29T20:41:25Z drmeister: When I run with the Memory Pool System garbage collector, which compacts memory, everytime I compile the CL source code I get a random, but well behaved crash where it complains that some random Cleavir AST node has unbound slots.    There is obviously a subtle problem in my implementation of the interface to the MPS.
2016-02-29T20:41:59Z drmeister: Some root that I'm not fixing or some pointer within one of the 250 C++ classes is not being updated as MPS compacts memory and moves objects around.
2016-02-29T20:42:43Z drmeister: p_l: Right, I have the regular C++ heap and STL library to work with - they don't incur GC issues.
2016-02-29T20:42:58Z drmeister: Which is why I thought of using std::set<void*>
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2016-02-29T20:43:47Z drmeister: And why I want to avoid using a hashtable with EQ-like comparison.
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2016-02-29T20:49:43Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: looks nice :-) please let me know when you'll be satisfied with the list, then I'll incorporate it
2016-02-29T20:50:13Z ralt: drmeister: does C++ have weakmaps?
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2016-02-29T20:51:07Z drmeister: I don't think so.  Maybe with std::weak_ptr.
2016-02-29T20:51:45Z ralt: a weakmap sounds like the perfect data structure for what you want to do, as far as I understand
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2016-02-29T20:52:07Z ralt: but I'm far from well-versed in C++, so my input is going as far as this
2016-02-29T20:52:58Z Lord_Nightmare: jackdaniel: also are you sure lispworks shares some cmucl code?
2016-02-29T20:53:13Z Lord_Nightmare: lispworks page claims its based on harlequin lisp from the 80s
2016-02-29T20:53:20Z Lord_Nightmare: late 80s
2016-02-29T20:53:39Z Lord_Nightmare: you'd know more than i do about that though
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2016-02-29T20:59:19Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: on their manual there is info, that they have the code from SPICE, which later became CMUCL (diagram is a bit inaccurate there, but I didn't want to include non-CL lisps)
2016-02-29T20:59:37Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, good night o/
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2016-02-29T21:19:48Z phoe_krk: does CL have a builtin function to flip the contents of a cons?
2016-02-29T21:21:16Z Bicyclidine: no.
2016-02-29T21:21:32Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: thx.
2016-02-29T21:21:33Z Bicyclidine: assuming you mean (defun flip (cons) (cons (cdr cons) (car cons))).
2016-02-29T21:21:38Z phoe_krk: yes, that.
2016-02-29T21:25:45Z Bicyclidine: or (rotatef (car cons) (cdr cons)) i guess.
2016-02-29T21:26:02Z phoe_krk: clhs rotatef
2016-02-29T21:26:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rotate.htm
2016-02-29T21:26:24Z phoe_krk: ...lisp has such a thing as rotatef?
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2016-02-29T21:26:32Z varjag: it does
2016-02-29T21:26:33Z phoe_krk: this language doesn't cease to amaze me
2016-02-29T21:26:34Z Bicyclidine: as you see
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2016-02-29T21:28:28Z varjag: it's very rare that something to do with manipulating lists can't be expressed idiomatically in cl
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2016-02-29T21:28:40Z varjag: in such cases i ask here and there's usually a way!
2016-02-29T21:30:45Z phoe_krk: varjag: :D
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2016-02-29T21:53:24Z rme: About my ASDF problem earlier, for the record, the version of CCL that is actually in the Mac App Store has ASDF loaded.  I made a version that doesn't load ASDF, but somehow I messed up and submitted the wrong thing.  I'll have to submit a new version.  What a disaster.
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2016-02-29T22:46:41Z phoe_krk: I'm about to co-write a project with these Java guys and they're talking about "serializing objects" all the time and I couldn't get what it means
2016-02-29T22:47:17Z phoe_krk: and at one point I got it and went "wtf I have it in Lisp 95% of the time"
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2016-02-29T22:47:34Z phoe_krk: when I'm using lists and structs
2016-02-29T22:47:41Z oGMo: er.. what
2016-02-29T22:48:12Z phoe_krk: turning objects into text and then text into objects
2016-02-29T22:48:16Z oGMo: printing readable objects is not the same as serializing, but there are certainly numerous serializing options in CL
2016-02-29T22:48:51Z oGMo: or at least, "not very useful for," to avoid arguments about definition :p
2016-02-29T22:49:33Z phoe_krk: oGMo: the ability to print readable objects makes it terribly easy for me to send them and I have that in Lisp for totally free.
2016-02-29T22:49:46Z phoe_krk: which is exactly what they were trying to achieve through serialization
2016-02-29T22:49:49Z oGMo: you certainly _could_ use print-object and similar to write readable representations of everything, there are just better options
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2016-02-29T22:50:11Z oGMo: phoe_krk: (print (make-hash-table))
2016-02-29T22:50:16Z pillton: How is printing readable objects not the same as serializing?
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2016-02-29T22:50:36Z phoe_krk: oGMo: I can't read anything that's #<, I know that.
2016-02-29T22:50:56Z phoe_krk: but I can readably print the contents of a hashtable and them slurp them back into another hashtable.
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2016-02-29T22:51:10Z oGMo: phoe_krk: right, so you're either limited to already-printable objects, or you have to implement a bunch of stuff... or you use something that already does all that
2016-02-29T22:51:34Z phoe_krk: oGMo: nevertheless, I'm amazed by how much stuff is already readable in Lisp by default.
2016-02-29T22:51:50Z phoe_krk: and if I operate on simple structures like structs/lists, it's all already free.
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2016-02-29T22:52:57Z oGMo: and only on trusted data
2016-02-29T22:54:35Z phoe_krk: oGMo: I don't really expect random #.s on the data there and I can use a reader that throws errors on these instead.
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2016-02-29T22:54:45Z oGMo: heh
2016-02-29T22:55:22Z oGMo: yes but when other people in other languages deal with serialization in big projects, they typically can't just "not expect" bad data :P
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2016-02-29T22:56:51Z oGMo: also note even if it's readable, you may not get certain options like :element-type
2016-02-29T22:57:11Z phoe_krk: right/
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2016-02-29T22:59:35Z Bike: or you could combine both sillinesses and allow element-type only with read-eval!
2016-02-29T23:02:33Z phoe_krk: xD
2016-02-29T23:02:36Z phoe_krk: night #lisp
2016-02-29T23:02:39Z aeth: phoe_krk: I understand what you're saying. I use CL for the REPL, mostly.
2016-02-29T23:02:45Z aeth: Well, the REPL and the performance.
2016-02-29T23:03:10Z phoe_krk: aeth: yes, it's immensely responsive and powerful
2016-02-29T23:03:26Z phoe_krk: (cdr (third *))
2016-02-29T23:03:29Z phoe_krk: and boom
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2016-02-29T23:03:41Z phoe_krk: I have the part of the last returned alist I'm interested in
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2016-02-29T23:05:01Z aeth: The most frustrating part about most languages is how hard it is to see what's going on, although some languages are fairly REPL-friendly, like Python.
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2016-02-29T23:05:54Z aeth: Afaik, a well-optimized CL is the fastest of the REPL languages, and with emacs+SLIME it probably has the most powerful REPL, too. Too bad emacs itself isn't in CL, and often feels like it's straight out of the early 1990s.
2016-02-29T23:06:00Z phoe_krk: oh come on aeth
2016-02-29T23:06:02Z phoe_krk: printf("DEBUG: a = %d, b = %d, c = %d, x = %d, length = %d\n", a, b, c, x, length);
2016-02-29T23:06:12Z phoe_krk: what could ever be wrong with this approach?
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2016-02-29T23:06:52Z phoe_krk: oh well, good night
2016-02-29T23:06:53Z aeth: phoe_krk: I often use debug print statements in Lisp, too. It's the last resort of trying to figure things out because it's easy to implement in most languages and situations. And format's pretty good at it.
2016-02-29T23:07:07Z aeth: Too bad when threading's used, it prints to a different spot than the SLIME REPL.
2016-02-29T23:07:13Z phoe_krk: yes, *inferior-lisp*
2016-02-29T23:07:20Z phoe_krk: but nevertheless Lisp has awesome introspection
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2016-02-29T23:07:31Z phoe_krk: and you can always easily pause things, like, manually make breakpoints
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2016-02-29T23:07:38Z phoe_krk: so you can inspect all the things you like
2016-02-29T23:07:42Z phoe_krk: and then just make the code run again
2016-02-29T23:07:54Z phoe_krk: all by toggling a global variable or two.
2016-02-29T23:08:30Z aeth: Yes, but usually FORMAT is easier than learning how to do things the right way :p
2016-02-29T23:08:37Z phoe_krk: or possibly make Emacs manually invoke the inspector on the interesting tidbit of code, straight from the CL code.
2016-02-29T23:08:39Z phoe_krk: <3
2016-02-29T23:09:01Z phoe_krk: but yes, it's easier this way. :P
2016-02-29T23:09:05Z phoe_krk: good night, take three
2016-02-29T23:09:16Z aeth: good night
2016-02-29T23:11:27Z _z: aeth: you might like guile-emacs, since im guessing you're not a fan of elisp
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2016-02-29T23:11:47Z dreamaddict: ok sweet I finally got some sound to play...now how to get the process to play threaded, or as a background process
2016-02-29T23:12:03Z dreamaddict: (it only seems to play if I use a sleep-type command to keep the function doing something)
2016-02-29T23:13:52Z aeth: _z: Good luck with that, though. The way Scheme reads, evals, prints, and loops is different than Lisp, with lots of issues like case-insensitivity vs. case-sensitivity, nil vs #f, lisp-1 vs. lisp-2, etc.
2016-02-29T23:14:41Z aeth: It would have been considerably easier for them just to use CL, but I guess yet again the FSF values politics (Guile is GPL and clisp is old/outdated compared to other, usually non-GPL CLs) over practicality.
2016-02-29T23:15:16Z aeth: If SBCL was GPLv3 and a GNU project, they probably would've already switched emacs to CL by now.
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2016-02-29T23:17:02Z dim: really? my understanding is that RMS doesn't like CL
2016-02-29T23:17:07Z dim: and, that's about it
2016-02-29T23:17:34Z phoe_krk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8328694 first link in Google
2016-02-29T23:17:39Z aeth: dim: Possibly. I wouldn't be surprised. Quite a few popular tech figures take personal preference and try to make it into absolute universal Truths.
2016-02-29T23:17:57Z dreamaddict: ok something seems to be wrong with the kind of .wav files that mpg321 (or whatever) makes
2016-02-29T23:18:14Z _z: i think its kind of ridiculous to have a guy be some kind of 'eternal leader' who hasnt done any development on the project since the 80's
2016-02-29T23:18:26Z dreamaddict: or, openAL says "Unsupported mode within an otherwise usable file type"
2016-02-29T23:19:32Z aeth: dim: I'm strongly opposed to the FSF approach of "write everything in C, and use something like Guile for scripting", which seems to be popular in a lot of other FOSS places too (probably thanks in part to the FSF), but outside of FOSS afaik is mainly popular in games with C++ and Lua as the engine and scripting languages respectively... and of course web browsers.
2016-02-29T23:19:54Z aeth: Switching emacs to Guile basically reinforces this C-first status quo, since Guile's designed as a scripting language.
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2016-02-29T23:20:45Z aeth: I prefer exactly the reverse approach, the C-last approach. Basically, only use C if you really have to make something fast, after you've already written it in a higher level language.
2016-02-29T23:21:05Z aeth: Although I guess it's not surprising that FSF/GNU would be C-first if their most important project is gcc.
2016-02-29T23:21:28Z dim: it might just be historical
2016-02-29T23:21:31Z jasom: GNU is C-first since the word "Unix" is in their name
2016-02-29T23:21:46Z aeth: jasom: Generally when things are prefixed by not, it reverses the meaning :p
2016-02-29T23:22:09Z dim: generally as in not always? ;-)
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2016-02-29T23:22:28Z jasom: aeth: in this case it's clearly slightly ironic
2016-02-29T23:22:42Z aeth: I was joking, hence the ":p"
2016-02-29T23:22:51Z Bike: so many layers of irony
2016-02-29T23:24:35Z aeth: Anyway, I can understand that maybe web browsers and game engines still need the C-first approach (although it's debatable with game engines; see #lispgames for an alternative), but a text editor in 2016 does not need a C-first approach unless it's designed to run on microcontrollers or routers or something.
2016-02-29T23:25:11Z phoe_krk: or something that, uh, like, eight megabytes and constantly swapping.
2016-02-29T23:25:24Z phoe_krk: oh wait
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2016-02-29T23:26:41Z aeth: phoe_krk: if only... according to htop, my emacs takes 68652 on launch, before I even open up slime, etc.
2016-02-29T23:26:57Z aeth: So.. about 69 MB? Look at that bloat! More than 8x increase since that joke was written.
2016-02-29T23:27:52Z phoe_krk: aeth: routers grew more powerful, too, so that scales. :P
2016-02-29T23:28:03Z phoe_krk: let
2016-02-29T23:28:32Z phoe_krk: let me just learn more lisp, find a job, find the time and I'll sit down and try to fix some of the climacs.
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2016-02-29T23:28:48Z phoe_krk: so we finally have a lispy enough editor for the lispy enough stuff.
2016-02-29T23:29:23Z phoe_krk: that, hell, could be embeddable into Lisp apps so an user can tinker with stuff wherever appliable. :P
2016-02-29T23:29:34Z aeth: If people want Scheme for scripting, they should get Scheme through scripting... through a Scheme with the core of it written in CL imo.
2016-02-29T23:29:46Z phoe_krk: xD
2016-02-29T23:29:58Z aeth: Unfortunately, the reader is too different between modern r7rs Scheme and CL. So not as many shortcuts can be taken as you might think.
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2016-02-29T23:30:44Z aeth: CL errors if you try to get it to read the r7rs test file, so there are some things that are valid Scheme syntax but not valid CL (and of course even if that worked, it would read lower case as upper case)
2016-02-29T23:31:07Z aeth: This is the most complete r7rs test I can find, btw: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
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2016-02-29T23:31:39Z aeth: If I can write a small Scheme interpreter in CL that can read and eval that, then hopefully I can solve this whole CL vs. Scheme issue once and for all. :p
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2016-02-29T23:32:28Z aeth: Emacs Lisp will hopefully be easier. If you have a CL emacs that can read Scheme and elisp, and run SLIME and magit, that's basically a sufficient baseline.
2016-02-29T23:32:43Z phoe_krk: Yay.
2016-02-29T23:32:56Z phoe_krk: and Scheme is small enough to be writeable like that.
2016-02-29T23:33:04Z phoe_krk: Even an R*RS compliant one.
2016-02-29T23:33:13Z aeth: Surprisingly, magit is the only capable git tool I can find that isn't a bloated web application. I spent a few days looking around. So magit would have to run in a CL emacs.
2016-02-29T23:33:24Z Zhivago: Although first class continuations may give some grief.
2016-02-29T23:33:25Z Bike: all of that seems perfectly readable in cl, except for #t/#f of course
2016-02-29T23:34:13Z aeth: Zhivago: The Scheme implementation would be run as an interpreter so that it could properly handle the control flow and scope at the expense of speed.
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2016-02-29T23:34:28Z aeth: If anyone ever uses it, rewriting it as a JIT compiler or something could be a nice to have 10 years later project :p
2016-02-29T23:35:46Z phoe_krk: hey, aeth
2016-02-29T23:35:58Z phoe_krk: if you write a R*RS compliant Scheme interpreter
2016-02-29T23:36:28Z Xach_ wants to update pscheme to build in modern cl sometime
2016-02-29T23:36:34Z phoe_krk: first: and stick it on top of some reliable Common Lisp implementation, you have a yet another working Scheme
2016-02-29T23:36:54Z aeth: phoe_krk: I would aim for r7rs-small because if I can get that, I can get r5rs since r7rs-small would be harder afaik. I would skip r6rs.
2016-02-29T23:37:03Z phoe_krk: second: your code might be used in some fifty years from now to solve CL vs Scheme disputes. :P
2016-02-29T23:37:07Z phoe_krk: aeth: I see
2016-02-29T23:37:20Z jasom: I actually want the opposite: a CL implementation in something like r5rs or a -small because there are scheme implementations that run everywhere
2016-02-29T23:37:45Z jasom: scheme isn't the ideal kernel language for CL, but it's one that has a bunch of people churning out new implementations
2016-02-29T23:37:46Z aeth: jasom: That would be harder because r7rs-small wouldn't provide enough portably.
2016-02-29T23:38:05Z jasom: aeth: r5rs ought to work though, right?
2016-02-29T23:38:39Z aeth: afaik, r5rs and r7rs-small are roughly equivalent; r6rs is a huge language which made it unpopular (few people tried to implement it) and so the compromise was to push a lot of functionality into r7rs-large
2016-02-29T23:38:51Z aeth: and afaik r7rs-large still isn't out even though r7rs-small has been out since 2013
2016-02-29T23:40:06Z aeth: So a modern scheme would probably have to be r7rs-small with a bunch of SRFIs that the implementers guess/hope will be in r7rs-large if you want portability. I don't think that's going to work for a CL.
2016-02-29T23:42:07Z aeth: What I'd personally like to see is a r7rs-small implemented in a CL instead of C, and with some decent API to talk between CL and this Scheme interpreter, and this Scheme interpreter being sandboxable, which is the only real feature that a scripting language can offer that would imo actually be useful in CL.
2016-02-29T23:43:19Z aeth: So you can have a huge CL application, like a game engine, and expose certain functionalities to the scripting Scheme, and this scripting Scheme won't have access to (delete-file) and other dangerous things, so you could have people share these Scheme scripts safely.
2016-02-29T23:43:21Z phoe_krk: and some basic CL<->Scheme interaction since both languages are Lisps.
2016-02-29T23:43:52Z phoe_krk: like being able to pull data from inside one language into the other.
2016-02-29T23:44:14Z aeth: Right, and hopefully once there's a CL<->Scheme, a lot of the code could hopefully be reused to implement a sandboxable elisp and a sandboxable CL-subset language, both of which would actually be easier to implement on CL than Scheme.
2016-02-29T23:44:35Z phoe_krk: ahuh.
2016-02-29T23:44:37Z aeth: And maybe even another Lisp-like language, e.g. as a shell-scripting equivalent.
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2016-02-29T23:45:51Z aeth: Basically, a language library for the user-facing parts of a lispm when paired with a terminal-equivalent, an emacs-equivalent, and a windowing system.
2016-02-29T23:46:04Z phoe_krk: that would be nice.
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2016-02-29T23:47:55Z aeth: Ideally, in maybe 5 or so years, there can be the CL equivalent of a GNOME or KDE (except a few things that would be way too hard, like a web browser). This can sit around and wait for the lower parts of a LispOS (file system, display server, kernel, utilities, etc.)
2016-02-29T23:48:09Z phoe_krk: ahuh!
2016-02-29T23:48:19Z _z: aeth: StumpWM is all Common Lisp
2016-02-29T23:48:26Z _z: So theres your gnome and kde
2016-02-29T23:48:27Z aeth: A CL emacs actually meets most of the requirements, assuming there's a window toolkit.
2016-02-29T23:48:36Z phoe_krk: _z: StumpWM to KDE is like an engine to a car
2016-02-29T23:48:51Z _z: Well, window managers are better anyway :)
2016-02-29T23:48:56Z phoe_krk: like a window manager to a desktop environment
2016-02-29T23:49:00Z aeth: _z: I don't mean Plasma 5 or whatever, I mean the suite of things that either KDE or GNOME offers. KDE has Qt, GNOME has Gtk, KDE has a file manager, GNOME has a file manager, etc.
2016-02-29T23:49:13Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-02-29T23:49:37Z aeth: Also, a card game. It's very important to play at least Klondike and Freecell. You don't have a complete desktop environment without this.
2016-02-29T23:50:18Z _z: Why can't you just have seperate stuff for that? I hate when I try to install gnome or kde, and they want to install all kinds of programs that arent needed for just the DE. Like, I'm never going to gnome shell, or gnome calculator etc
2016-02-29T23:50:26Z _z: maybe im misunderstanding?
2016-02-29T23:50:36Z CompanionCube: isn't gnome shell like, the core UI
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2016-02-29T23:50:56Z _z: gnome terminal i mean
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2016-02-29T23:51:23Z phoe_krk: apt remove gnome-terminal
2016-02-29T23:51:37Z _z: i was just giving a few examples phoe_krk
2016-02-29T23:51:38Z aeth: _z: That's just bad design imo that I can't use e.g. deja-dup for backups on KDE without having gnome-shell that I never use installed.
2016-02-29T23:51:49Z _z: point is they package stuff that should just be optional
2016-02-29T23:51:50Z phoe_krk: yes, yes, I know.
2016-02-29T23:51:53Z aeth: _z: I don't think there's a good reason why the applications have to be that tightly coupled, rather than just available.
2016-02-29T23:51:57Z phoe_krk: gnome and kde are monsters.
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2016-02-29T23:52:16Z phoe_krk: basically monsters that require 60% of their stuff installed so you can use a single app.
2016-02-29T23:52:22Z aeth: _z: Part of the reason why there ought to be equivalents to most of the stuff that KDE and GNOME offer is because the stuff KDE and GNOME offer aren't very... useful on their own.
2016-02-29T23:52:28Z phoe_krk: and systemd which is to be discussed elsewhere.
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2016-02-29T23:52:31Z phoe_krk: but anyway
2016-02-29T23:52:33Z phoe_krk: night take four xD
2016-02-29T23:52:41Z _z: go to bed phoe_krk
2016-02-29T23:52:42Z _z: lol
2016-02-29T23:53:25Z aeth: There's not as much of an urgency to have a web browser (even though GNOME and KDE have them) or an image editor (even though GNOME and KDE probably have them) since Firefox and GIMP respectively are afaik loosely coupled from any DE and better than what the DEs offer as equivalents.
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2016-02-29T23:54:21Z aeth: But there are lots of little things that KDE and GNOME offer that would have to be cloned for there to be a useful competitor. Linux Mint is finding this out now, since just using the GNOME stuff on anything other than gnome-shell provides an awful user experience because of the non-standard way GNOME 3 apps look.
2016-02-29T23:55:31Z aeth: stumpwm is just written on clx, rather than on a general CL GUI toolkit like mcclim (which unfortunately seems to be broken), so stumpwm can't be used as a component in this system without being rewritten anyway. The GUI toolkit is arguably the most important part of the app suite.
2016-02-29T23:56:25Z Bike: writing stumpwm on a gui toolkit makes no sense. that's not what it does.
2016-02-29T23:56:34Z dreamaddict: does anyone know what mpg321 would be doing that it would make a .wav file unreadable by openAL?
2016-02-29T23:57:27Z aeth: It would be awesome if essentially the CL emacs equivalent of emacsd *was* the desktop environment, and every native application (as opposed to e.g. Firefox) was just connecting to it.
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