2015-11-01T00:00:34Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:03:56Z Petit_Dejeuner`: I write CL code that can automates a process that causes the other person's server to do things its owner thought and hoped were impossible. 2015-11-01T00:05:26Z Dynamicmetaflow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:10:59Z pjb: Sounds good. CL, Common Magic. 2015-11-01T00:15:00Z phoe_krk: "I write CL code that can automates a process that causes the other person's server to do things its owner thought and hoped were impossible." 2015-11-01T00:15:26Z phoe_krk: sounds like a proper testimony of Lisp used by the Lisp preachers 2015-11-01T00:16:18Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:16:24Z phoe_krk: also, #twitchinstalls is about to spend more time logging in than installing and setting their base system. 2015-11-01T00:19:07Z tharu quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-01T00:19:18Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:20:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T00:21:08Z samssammerz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T00:22:55Z vydd quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-01T00:23:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:23:29Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T00:23:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:28:49Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:41:37Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:42:20Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-11-01T00:43:01Z leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:45:49Z keen___________2 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:46:26Z keen___________1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:48:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:51:51Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:52:40Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:52:40Z loadsdow` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:55:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T00:55:58Z james__ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T00:58:15Z theethicalegoist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:01:45Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:03:45Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-01T01:04:14Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:05:03Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:11:21Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-01T01:18:51Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:20:26Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:20:58Z znpy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T01:23:31Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T01:23:47Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:24:39Z pjb: Sounds good. CL, Common Magic. 2015-11-01T01:29:22Z ryouma` joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:29:39Z ryouma`: pjb: couldn't find the code at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence.html 2015-11-01T01:30:31Z ryouma`: oic git 2015-11-01T01:34:48Z phoe_krk: pjb: you already said that 2015-11-01T01:36:05Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:36:13Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:41:28Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:45:48Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:46:30Z keen___________2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:47:43Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:51:38Z Dynamicmetaflow joined #lisp 2015-11-01T01:52:34Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:52:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T01:53:00Z Dynamicmetaflow left #lisp 2015-11-01T01:58:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:00:39Z IRLRaceCondition joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:04:31Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-11-01T02:05:02Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T02:05:26Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, sometimes I use M-p to get the previous command, and type RET too fast :-( 2015-11-01T02:05:37Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T02:05:49Z thalassa joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:06:20Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:06:32Z pjb: ryouma`: it's also in quicklisp. 2015-11-01T02:06:54Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:07:20Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:12:21Z IRLRaceCondition is now known as MetaSexual 2015-11-01T02:15:13Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T02:15:33Z phoe_krk: good night, #parens 2015-11-01T02:15:45Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:17:15Z snv quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T02:32:26Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T02:32:44Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T02:40:58Z SamSkulls quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T02:42:00Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:42:14Z Petit_Dejeuner` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T02:44:58Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:48:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T02:50:07Z james__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T02:56:42Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T03:00:28Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-11-01T03:02:52Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T03:02:52Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-01T03:03:44Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T03:07:07Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T03:12:42Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-01T03:14:59Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T03:24:02Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-01T03:24:10Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Clock change tonight, isn't it? 2015-11-01T04:55:57Z beach: For you, yes. 2015-11-01T04:56:01Z beach: Here it was last week. 2015-11-01T04:56:18Z nyef: Might let me catch up on the sleep that I'm missing trying to get one last test run done. 2015-11-01T04:57:09Z beach: Better get that test run done before the clocks change to daylight savings time again. 2015-11-01T04:57:32Z nyef: I think I can manage to get it done before next spring, yes. 2015-11-01T04:57:44Z beach: Good, good. :) 2015-11-01T04:58:13Z nyef: Might even be able to fix some of the bugs it points out by then as well. (-: 2015-11-01T04:58:29Z beach: Even better. 2015-11-01T04:58:34Z beach: What system is this? 2015-11-01T04:58:39Z nyef: MIPS. 2015-11-01T04:58:49Z nyef: SBCL. 2015-11-01T04:58:53Z beach: Ah, OK. 2015-11-01T04:59:21Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T04:59:40Z nyef: Already fixed a few doozies. 2015-11-01T05:00:10Z beach: Fewer eyeballs on MIPS I guess. 2015-11-01T05:00:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:00:41Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:00:47Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-11-01T05:00:51Z guicho: |3b|: I and at least another guy (gos-k) is interested in implementing opencl interface for CL. We started individually and I started my lib as a fork of your cl-opencl-3b, but gos-k complains its license is ambiguous. could you add one to yours? 2015-11-01T05:01:13Z nyef: Mmm. Finding a MIPS system fast enough to do a build on in less than half a day has been an issue, historically. 2015-11-01T05:01:36Z pjb: emulators? 2015-11-01T05:01:42Z nyef: Even emulators are slow. 2015-11-01T05:01:59Z nyef: Also, emulators aren't as trustworthy as real hardware. 2015-11-01T05:02:21Z White_Flame: nyef: nobody offering some SiCortex time? 2015-11-01T05:04:24Z nyef: Hunh. They were based out of Maynard, MA. I used to live in that town. 2015-11-01T05:05:15Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:05:45Z nyef: beach: Here's a fun one, also floating-point related: HPPA and MIPS have the opposite scheme for distinguishing SNaN and QNaN as compared with every other backend in SBCL. 2015-11-01T05:06:45Z nyef: And so, of course, SB-EXT:FLOAT-NAN-P and SB-EXT:FLOAT-TRAPPING-NAN-P were a horrible, horrible mess, leading to quite a bit of general badness. 2015-11-01T05:07:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:07:49Z beach: Sounds bad. 2015-11-01T05:07:56Z beach: Can the schemes be unified? 2015-11-01T05:08:23Z nyef: It's a single bit that's interpreted differently at the FPU level. 2015-11-01T05:08:43Z beach: Oh, I thought it was well defined at the hardware level. Not so? 2015-11-01T05:09:04Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:09:20Z nyef: In a way, we're lucky that the, what, nine different backends that we have all use the same general convention, even if two of them swap SNaN and QNaN. 2015-11-01T05:10:10Z nyef: I'm given to understand that the IEEE spec requires that there be at least one SNaN and at least one QNaN, but leaves the precise details up to the implementation. 2015-11-01T05:10:25Z beach: That explains the difference. I had no idea. 2015-11-01T05:10:33Z nyef: Oh, and there has to be at least one (or two?) infinities. 2015-11-01T05:11:04Z Takumo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:11:04Z micro_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:11:09Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:11:33Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:12:08Z nyef: Okay, last test for tonight, I hope: Was that sb-gmp build failure a transient failure, or does it somehow depend on getting a 64-bit result for integer register values? 2015-11-01T05:12:10Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:12:11Z Quadrescence: is there a portability library for hash tables which allow defining ones own equality function? 2015-11-01T05:12:50Z micro__ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:13:14Z micro__ is now known as Guest99686 2015-11-01T05:13:17Z blubjr: whats wrong with the standard 2015-11-01T05:14:17Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-01T05:14:25Z Quadrescence: blubjr, you mean with respect to hash tables? 2015-11-01T05:15:01Z keen_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:15:14Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:15:38Z blubjr: what do you want 2015-11-01T05:15:52Z nyef sighs. 2015-11-01T05:16:00Z Quadrescence: blubjr, I have a special data type that I want as hash keys that doesn't compare with any of the equality functions 2015-11-01T05:16:01Z nyef: Okay, I must have broken something somewhere, somehow. 2015-11-01T05:16:12Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:16:22Z White_Flame: Quadrescence: on quicklisp, https://github.com/metawilm/cl-custom-hash-table 2015-11-01T05:17:07Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, great! 2015-11-01T05:17:17Z White_Flame: that one isn't transparent to use, though 2015-11-01T05:17:49Z White_Flame: what I would actually desire, and isn't easy to work with in standard means, is the ability to provide a hash value directly to gethash, along with the key object 2015-11-01T05:17:50Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:17:50Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T05:17:50Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:18:00Z White_Flame: useful if the hash is expensive to calculate, and should be cached on the object 2015-11-01T05:18:20Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, what about making the hash function look at the cache first? 2015-11-01T05:18:24Z Quadrescence: and otherwise calculating it 2015-11-01T05:18:25Z White_Flame: though a custom hash function could in theory solve that problem, it has a lot of contextual differences 2015-11-01T05:18:35Z pchrist joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:18:47Z Quadrescence: What do you mean 2015-11-01T05:19:35Z White_Flame: one of the issues we were dealing with is that the keys were immutable, meaning you couldn't actually store the hash directly on it, if it didn't exist first 2015-11-01T05:20:00Z Quadrescence: so then how would you cache the hash otherwise? 2015-11-01T05:20:14Z Quadrescence: all I can think is upon creation, but if that's the case, then just make the hash function an access function 2015-11-01T05:20:15Z White_Flame: so depending on how keys were made, or how gethash was called, and with whatever info available to it, it'd be better to expose the hash (for our cases we were looking at years ago) as a separate optional parameter 2015-11-01T05:20:19Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T05:22:58Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:24:30Z SkullGreymon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T05:25:56Z White_Flame: oh, as far as storage/association of the hash values to the complex keys, this was all being held in a knowledge base, with extra slots on facts for such info 2015-11-01T05:26:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:27:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:27:31Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:27:45Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-01T05:30:32Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-01T05:30:49Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:33:13Z keen_ quit (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-39209: SIGTERM received; exit) 2015-11-01T05:33:55Z thalassa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T05:35:18Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T05:42:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T05:57:44Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T05:59:11Z MetaBolism quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-01T06:01:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:06:07Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T06:06:31Z blubjr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T06:07:11Z blubjr joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:10:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:14:34Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:18:55Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:20:32Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:20:47Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T06:23:39Z pyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-01T06:27:02Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T06:28:27Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:28:59Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:29:16Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:29:23Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:30:50Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T06:38:08Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:43:52Z guicho: minion: memo for |3b|: I and at least one guy (gos-k) is interested in implementing opencl interface for CL. We started individually but we decided to cooperate. I started my lib as a fork of your cl-opencl-3b, but gos-k complains its license is ambiguous. could you add one to yours? 2015-11-01T06:43:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell |3b| when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-01T06:44:25Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-01T06:52:16Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:56:07Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-01T06:57:11Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-01T06:57:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T06:57:21Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:02:18Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:04:45Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-01T07:05:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:11:20Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:11:36Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:14:39Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:19:26Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:30:42Z shka_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T07:31:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:31:40Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-01T07:32:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:35:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:41:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:43:12Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:43:23Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:43:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:44:05Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:48:10Z sword```` joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:50:37Z sword``` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:53:34Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T07:56:27Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T07:59:33Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:03:43Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:07:55Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:10:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-01T08:10:33Z cadadar1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:11:14Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:12:02Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T08:12:17Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T08:16:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:25:02Z cadadar1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:25:21Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:26:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:27:06Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:28:06Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:37:15Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:37:19Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:38:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:38:31Z beach prepares his "LispOS" talk that will take place in a week and a half. 2015-11-01T08:38:34Z beach: Well, the talk is not advertised as such, but that is essentially what it is about. 2015-11-01T08:41:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:47:23Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:47:35Z nzambe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T08:49:21Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:55:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:55:10Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:56:28Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-01T08:59:27Z rtaylor joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:00:11Z treaki_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:03:11Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:06:22Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:06:41Z rtaylor quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-01T09:08:53Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:14:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T09:14:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:17:26Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:20:02Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:21:52Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-11-01T09:22:23Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:23:06Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:28:55Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:35:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:40:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:41:30Z treaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-01T09:41:42Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:42:03Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:44:40Z treaki joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:44:41Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T09:46:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:51:21Z shka_: beach: will you record that? 2015-11-01T09:51:22Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-01T09:53:38Z beach: shka_: Probably not. I am giving it to a private company and it is not up to me. 2015-11-01T09:53:47Z shka_: oh 2015-11-01T09:53:51Z shka_: what a shame 2015-11-01T09:54:03Z beach: I'll post the slides. 2015-11-01T09:54:08Z shka_: can we at least know what is this company? 2015-11-01T09:54:17Z shka_: or that is secret as well? 2015-11-01T09:54:33Z pjb: Usually it is :-) 2015-11-01T09:54:51Z beach: http://hiq.se/en/#/ 2015-11-01T09:55:29Z beach: They didn't ask me to talk about this. I am giving my talk for free so I could choose the subject. :) 2015-11-01T09:56:01Z shka_: :D 2015-11-01T09:56:35Z shka_: well, company seems to do cool things 2015-11-01T09:56:56Z beach: Good. I haven't really looked into the details. 2015-11-01T09:56:58Z shka_: like automatic cars 2015-11-01T09:58:13Z beach: That seems to be fashionable right now. 2015-11-01T09:59:02Z shka_: yeah, pentagon put large ammount of money into that 2015-11-01T09:59:17Z beach: Hmm. 2015-11-01T09:59:17Z shka_: and that jump started whole thing 2015-11-01T10:01:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:02:21Z pjb: Now, I used to say that if the taxes weren't so high, the people would have their money to choose into what research to invest it into (and would probably not choose military technology first). BUT we see a lot of corporations in the USA with so much money on their hand they don't know what to do with it, and apart from Google, they definitely do not invest it into any research project, but rather into buybacks (not even dividends!). 2015-11-01T10:03:39Z beach: I have a very smart friend who thinks that we should be free to decide what our tax money will go to. I think that is a very good idea, actually. 2015-11-01T10:03:50Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:03:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:03:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:03:58Z beach: I mean, each individual should be able to decide. 2015-11-01T10:04:10Z pjb: Won't occur, cf. http://le-message.org/ 2015-11-01T10:05:19Z shka_: pjb: well, majority of technical breaktrough started with gov founded projects 2015-11-01T10:05:26Z beach: One can always dream. 2015-11-01T10:05:29Z shka_: *funded 2015-11-01T10:05:44Z pjb: shka_: yes, that's the point. Capitalism doesn't work. 2015-11-01T10:06:08Z shka_: pjb: it works for some! ;-) 2015-11-01T10:07:14Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T10:09:01Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:10:05Z beach: I always recommend this book: http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-670-89976-0 2015-11-01T10:17:53Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:18:42Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:20:10Z phryk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T10:20:13Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T10:20:25Z phryk joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:21:39Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:22:31Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:25:03Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:28:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:32:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:32:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T10:32:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:33:18Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:33:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:34:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:34:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:35:26Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T10:36:14Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:36:47Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T10:37:35Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:37:43Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:39:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:41:06Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:45:12Z shka_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T10:47:16Z reggy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T10:49:59Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T10:50:32Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:50:38Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:51:40Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:54:04Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-01T10:55:57Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T10:57:02Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T10:58:09Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:03:53Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:07:22Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:07:34Z native_killer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T11:08:23Z |3b|: minion: memo for guicho: cl-opencl-3b is mit or bsd or similar, but i won't be online enough for a few weeks to actually add it to the repo, please file an issue and remind me in a few weeks, and let me know if you have a preference for a specific license 2015-11-01T11:08:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell guicho when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-01T11:08:24Z minion: |3b|, memo from guicho: I and at least one guy (gos-k) is interested in implementing opencl interface for CL. We started individually but we decided to cooperate. I started my lib as a fork of your cl-opencl-3b, but gos-k complains its license is ambiguous. could you add one to yours? 2015-11-01T11:12:58Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T11:20:07Z megid0 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:20:10Z ack006 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:20:43Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T11:23:01Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:26:08Z Ven_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T11:26:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T11:33:06Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:33:54Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:41:54Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:42:52Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-11-01T11:43:06Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T11:43:06Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:45:33Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T11:46:52Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T11:47:00Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:49:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T11:53:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T11:56:15Z anddam quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T11:59:06Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:04:44Z abbe: as if there is not enough competition, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6830 2015-11-01T12:05:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:06:45Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:08:22Z anddam joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:11:48Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:12:47Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:13:09Z Dynamicmetaflow joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:14:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T12:15:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:20:19Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:21:11Z SHODAN quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:21:51Z Guest14392 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:22:11Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:22:13Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:22:36Z Guest14392: anyone have any recent experience deploying commonqt based images on windows? (obviously, onto systems that don't have QT installed) 2015-11-01T12:23:21Z Shinmera: I do. 2015-11-01T12:23:35Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:23:36Z Shinmera: I'm guessing you're the same guy that asked this before but was too impatient to stick around and wait for an answer. 2015-11-01T12:23:43Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T12:23:56Z pjb: abbe: it's old news. 2015-11-01T12:25:44Z Guest14392: Shinmera: I only have access to the internet for limited periods of time, so yes that was probably me, but I have plenty of patience I assure you 2015-11-01T12:25:53Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:26:01Z Shinmera: Guest14392: Well, I posted the answer back then: http://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=2015-10-30T18:03:18&types=tonam#1446228198 2015-11-01T12:27:12Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:28:08Z Shinmera: Guest14392: The solution requires Qtools, but since it's just a layer on top of CommonQt if your app uses the proper ASD options it should still work just fine even if you don't use the rest of Qtools. 2015-11-01T12:28:38Z Guest14392: I'll work through this, thanks. Additionally I'd made it to a point where I'd done this by hand, taken out the libs from the standalone folder of qt-libs and used quicklisp bundles. 2015-11-01T12:28:40Z Shinmera: Guest14392: I've successfully deployed applications on windows before, so it works. 2015-11-01T12:28:57Z Guest14392: I'll go back and try your process because mine was quite manual whereas yours sounds more automatic 2015-11-01T12:28:59Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:29:08Z Shinmera: Just be aware of https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/issues/10 2015-11-01T12:29:15Z Guest14392: have you deployed with ccl lately? 2015-11-01T12:29:22Z Shinmera: No, I usually use SBCL 2015-11-01T12:29:52Z Shinmera: If you have any trouble with it, opening an issue so I can look at it would be very welcome 2015-11-01T12:31:07Z Guest14392: ok. I imagine sbcl has this option too, but on windows exe's can be configured as taking part in the gui subsystem or the console subsystem. The difference is that when you run an exe configured for console, it opened up a command prompt in addition to whatever gui calls are made, whereas when it is configured for gui, no command prompt is created. 2015-11-01T12:31:34Z Shinmera: Right. SBCL does have that too. 2015-11-01T12:31:43Z Shinmera: Qtools takes care of setting that flag automatically. 2015-11-01T12:31:57Z Guest14392: when I use ccl save image functions and configure them to make a console type exe, the program works as expected and the qt forms are shown, but when I make it gui, the program just closes immediately with no apparent effect, and I was curious if you'd encountered this problem on sbcl as well 2015-11-01T12:32:00Z Shinmera: It doesn't on CCL, because I was unaware of it. 2015-11-01T12:32:13Z Shinmera: Not on SBCL, no 2015-11-01T12:32:23Z Shinmera: CCL does some weird stuff with threadage sometimes, so I'd have to investigate. 2015-11-01T12:32:25Z Guest14392: its undocumented, but its a parameter to ccl:save-application :application-type :gui 2015-11-01T12:32:48Z Guest14392: ok, I'll try your system and post issues if I find any, thanks for putting this together 2015-11-01T12:32:49Z Shinmera: Ok. I'll have a look at it when I have the time (I can't promise anything too soon, unfortunately) 2015-11-01T12:34:11Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:34:13Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:35:31Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:37:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T12:38:01Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:38:15Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T12:38:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:47:53Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:49:39Z wizzomafizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:51:53Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:52:49Z wizzomafizzo quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-01T12:53:39Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:54:07Z wizzomafizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:54:20Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:56:05Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T12:56:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T12:56:33Z phoe_krk: (proclaim 'independence) 2015-11-01T13:04:46Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T13:06:55Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:07:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T13:07:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-01T13:21:24Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T13:21:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:24:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:33:02Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:33:55Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:35:48Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:39:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T13:40:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:41:21Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-01T13:41:33Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Is there anyone here who'd like an early example of it? 2015-11-01T14:18:48Z myrkraverk: I have the C to CFFI interface working, it's just CLOS that I'm wrapping up now. 2015-11-01T14:18:52Z Xach: what is Kytea? 2015-11-01T14:19:01Z Xach: jfe: usocket is an option 2015-11-01T14:19:20Z tsoutseki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T14:19:25Z myrkraverk: It's a Japanese word separation/pronounciation toolkit. 2015-11-01T14:19:55Z myrkraverk: http://www.phontron.com/kytea/ 2015-11-01T14:20:06Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:20:39Z treaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T14:20:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:25:58Z ccb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:25:58Z Xach: myrkraverk: hmm, i seem to remember someone working on something like that recently, but i thought it was directly in CL 2015-11-01T14:26:31Z Shinmera: It was. http://ichi.moe/ 2015-11-01T14:28:48Z Guest14392 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T14:29:33Z gabriel_laddel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T14:30:54Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:33:14Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:33:33Z myrkraverk: Interesting, I'll take a look at that. 2015-11-01T14:36:53Z myrkraverk: At first glance, it seems ichiran is not better than kytea, but I may give it a try. 2015-11-01T14:40:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T14:42:57Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:43:48Z znpy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T14:43:54Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T14:46:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:47:29Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:47:45Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:52:11Z ccb is now known as tianyu 2015-11-01T14:52:57Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-01T14:56:22Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T14:57:00Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:02:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:03:59Z wizzomafizzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:05:29Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-01T15:07:12Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-01T15:14:15Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:18:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:19:13Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T15:20:44Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:22:18Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T15:23:27Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:24:30Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:24:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:24:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:27:28Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:28:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T15:30:14Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:31:34Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:32:13Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:34:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:37:24Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-11-01T15:37:56Z drmeister: Hello - yes - somewhat 2015-11-01T15:38:03Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:38:28Z beach: Do you have any of your own classes that inherit from the Cleavir local environment classes? 2015-11-01T15:38:28Z drmeister: What's up? 2015-11-01T15:38:30Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-01T15:38:43Z beach: Or any methods on any of the Cleavir classes? 2015-11-01T15:39:28Z drmeister: I don't have any classes that inherit from Cleavir local environment classes. 2015-11-01T15:39:36Z drmeister: Methods on cleavir classes - I don't think so. 2015-11-01T15:39:38Z beach: Great! 2015-11-01T15:40:00Z beach: So I have full freedom to fix the stack-depth problem by reorganizing those classes. 2015-11-01T15:40:38Z drmeister: You have full freedom anyway - I will "adapt, adopt and improve". 2015-11-01T15:40:48Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-11-01T15:40:55Z beach: OK. Thanks. 2015-11-01T15:41:04Z beach: That's all. You can go back to what you were doing. 2015-11-01T15:41:17Z drmeister only includes "improve" because he doesn't want to spoil the original Cleese quote. 2015-11-01T15:41:32Z drmeister: Great! 2015-11-01T15:47:02Z megid0: is there a wiki with all the lisp functions? 2015-11-01T15:47:18Z remi`bd: there’s the CLHS, but it’s not a wiki 2015-11-01T15:47:24Z remi`bd: and it’s common lisp only. 2015-11-01T15:48:39Z megid0: i guess that works for what im looking for, thank you 2015-11-01T15:52:36Z Dynamicmetaflow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T15:52:40Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:53:52Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T15:54:14Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-01T15:58:12Z ajf-: It's so cool that I can close parenthesis almost anywhere and what's enclosed will still function 2015-11-01T15:58:23Z ajf-: except with some special cases 2015-11-01T16:04:09Z phoe_krk: ajf-: there are *many* of these special cases. 2015-11-01T16:04:59Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:05:03Z ajf-: that says a lot about the underlying design 2015-11-01T16:05:26Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:06:22Z otwieracz: My SLIME REPL is freezing from time to time with CCL. 2015-11-01T16:06:22Z futpib quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T16:06:47Z otwieracz: Does anybody saw such behaviour already? I have to restart-inferior-lisp to make it working again. 2015-11-01T16:07:08Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:07:29Z phoe_krk: is there a way to update quicklisp from within an older version of quicklisp? 2015-11-01T16:09:10Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:09:58Z tianyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.5)) 2015-11-01T16:10:04Z vydd: phoe_krk: (ql:update-client) for updating the client, (ql:update-all-dists) for updating dists, it's all @ https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2015-11-01T16:10:10Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-11-01T16:10:58Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:12:00Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:19:21Z DKordic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T16:21:40Z Shinmera: otwieracz: Have you tried C-g when it hangs? Sometimes that then gives me a slime error printout, but at least lets me continue my session. 2015-11-01T16:21:46Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:22:01Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:22:23Z otwieracz: yeah - it's completely freezed. 2015-11-01T16:22:38Z otwieracz: I've tried to start CCL in terminal and then start swank-server from it. 2015-11-01T16:22:45Z otwieracz: CCL becames completey unresponsive. 2015-11-01T16:22:54Z otwieracz: I've tried clearing caches. 2015-11-01T16:23:51Z myrkraverk: Apparently, there's no such thing as (defward ...) 2015-11-01T16:25:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:26:01Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T16:26:15Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T16:27:31Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:28:25Z jfe quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-01T16:28:36Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:29:47Z tianyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.5)) 2015-11-01T16:29:48Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:32:45Z tianyu joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:32:54Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:33:13Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:39:25Z axion: otwieracz: you could try sly, which is a fork of slime with more features, to limit down the cause 2015-11-01T16:42:54Z jfe: what are the rules for modifying state in CL? how do i know if i'm changing the contents of, for example, a list that was passed as an argument to a function, or a copy of the list? 2015-11-01T16:44:35Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T16:45:34Z jackdaniel: jfe: what do you mean? if you won't copy the list passed in the argument and you modify it then you modify it (?) 2015-11-01T16:46:06Z jackdaniel: maybe some code example to show what you have in mind 2015-11-01T16:46:16Z jfe: in other words, if i have a function f that takes a list as a parameter, how do i add elements to the list, and not the copy of it? 2015-11-01T16:47:25Z H4ns: jfe: you can't, in a nutshell. you'll have to return the new list to the caller. 2015-11-01T16:49:51Z jfe: okay. so would i be correct in saying the way to provide an interface to a data structure that maintains state is via macros? 2015-11-01T16:50:50Z jfe: (or using CLOS objects or structs) 2015-11-01T16:50:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:51:04Z H4ns: jfe: no. maybe it helps if you think of lisp lists not as objects with an identity of its on, but rather as a chain of cons cells that may be used _as_ a list. 2015-11-01T16:51:06Z jackdaniel: objects and structs would be more sane approach 2015-11-01T16:51:28Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:51:49Z H4ns: jfe: the key thing, i think, is that if you think "modification", then you need identity, and lisp lists don't provide you with identity. 2015-11-01T16:53:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-01T16:54:41Z jfe: hmm. it seems that if i refer to parts of a list using car or cdr, i can change the contents of those place: (defun add-elt (L elt) (setf (cdr (last L)) (cons elt nil))) seems to work 2015-11-01T16:55:09Z jfe: that surprised me, because i figured the #'last would return a copy of the list. 2015-11-01T16:55:19Z H4ns: jfe: what made you think so? 2015-11-01T16:55:52Z jfe: H4ns: not sure. ignorance, i guess. 2015-11-01T16:56:42Z jfe: so lists don't have identity, but cons cells do. 2015-11-01T16:56:54Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-01T16:58:38Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-01T16:59:34Z Xach: lists are made of conses and nil 2015-11-01T17:01:30Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:02:02Z ryu0: Xach: then what does that make lists that end in a non-nil for the last member? iirc, my book called these a dotted list or dotted pair? 2015-11-01T17:02:41Z H4ns: in any case, it is true that cons cells have identity whereas lists don't, as far as lisp is concerned 2015-11-01T17:09:04Z tianyu quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.5)) 2015-11-01T17:14:50Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:15:40Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:18:22Z XachX: ryu0: also improper 2015-11-01T17:18:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:19:42Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:20:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:20:41Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-11-01T17:20:42Z beach: ryu0: A "dotted pair" would be a single CONS cell with some atom other than NIL in the CDR. 2015-11-01T17:21:16Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:21:58Z erjoalgo: can I do destructuring in a loop "as" clause? eg "as (x y) = (return-multiple-values)" 2015-11-01T17:22:28Z beach: No, destructuring in LOOP is done on lists. 2015-11-01T17:22:33Z beach: Or, trees, rather. 2015-11-01T17:23:24Z Bike: you can use multiple-value-list to make value into a list, tho. 2015-11-01T17:23:41Z shka_: or use iterate 2015-11-01T17:24:59Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:26:23Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T17:26:52Z leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:27:38Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:30:04Z leb quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T17:30:15Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:32:04Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:33:45Z alexherbo2 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T17:33:53Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:34:05Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:34:34Z megid0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:35:59Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:37:40Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:37:57Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:40:23Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:40:31Z beach: erjoalgo: Anytime! 2015-11-01T17:43:17Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:44:59Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-01T17:45:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T17:46:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:47:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:50:40Z AndChat66969 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:51:40Z AndChat66969 left #lisp 2015-11-01T17:52:06Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T17:52:19Z myrkraverk: Does asdf have any provisions for depending on C++ code? 2015-11-01T17:52:23Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:52:31Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-11-01T17:52:33Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:52:37Z myrkraverk: Yes, I'm reading the manual, but haven't gotten far enough to answer the question. 2015-11-01T17:54:19Z Bike: i doubt there's anything built in, but it's probably extensible enough for it. i think Shinmera might have wrote such an extension? 2015-11-01T17:54:39Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-01T17:56:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T17:57:11Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-01T17:59:16Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:01:27Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T18:04:30Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-01T18:04:57Z ajf-: what would be the predicate to MERGE if I wanted to interleave them ? 2015-11-01T18:05:01Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:05:02Z ajf-: the lists 2015-11-01T18:05:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-01T18:05:40Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:05:51Z jackdaniel: predicate? 2015-11-01T18:05:53Z ajf-: '(a a a a a) + '(b b b) = '(a b a b a b a a) 2015-11-01T18:06:05Z ajf-: yes the function designator 2015-11-01T18:06:07Z ajf-: #´ 2015-11-01T18:06:45Z Bike: sounds nasty, i'd just use a loop 2015-11-01T18:07:33Z _death: merge is not for that 2015-11-01T18:07:34Z myrkraverk: At least there's run-program in asdf. I'm not sure how I can (easily) generalize that, in order to compile a shared library (the intermediate C wrapper) or even Kytea itself, and support multiple platforms. 2015-11-01T18:07:47Z myrkraverk: Maybe I can use it for the platforms I'm using though. 2015-11-01T18:08:39Z phoe_krk: ajf-: let me google that for you... "lisp interleave" 2015-11-01T18:08:42Z phoe_krk: http://lisp.plasticki.com/show?E97 2015-11-01T18:08:59Z ajf-: huh 2015-11-01T18:09:12Z ajf-: thanks didn't occur to me to search for that exact words 2015-11-01T18:09:34Z phoe_krk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3973420/how-would-one-interleve-elements-of-2-lists-in-lisp 2015-11-01T18:09:49Z phoe_krk: this seems a little better; the former expects lists of equal lengths, it seems 2015-11-01T18:10:23Z ajf-: i don't like it though 2015-11-01T18:10:46Z ajf-: for .. collect (loop for i collect (list (nth i a) (nth i b))) 2015-11-01T18:10:53Z ajf-: I just did something like that 2015-11-01T18:11:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:12:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-01T18:14:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T18:14:35Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:14:50Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:15:09Z gniourf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T18:15:18Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:15:52Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:16:30Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:17:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-01T18:19:33Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:21:02Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:22:00Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:22:59Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:23:30Z zbigniew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:23:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:24:06Z derrida quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:24:13Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:24:33Z Shinmera: Bike: I did, but it's been discontinued because ASDF is not suitable for that task to the extent I wanted to take it to. 2015-11-01T18:25:33Z Shinmera: It's still around in all its unfinished, uncleaned, and undocumented glory. https://github.com/Shinmera/abcd 2015-11-01T18:25:54Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:25:57Z Bike: so do you just have people build smoke manually or whatever? 2015-11-01T18:26:16Z Shinmera: qt-libs uses its own, horrid extension that is just powerful enough to do the trick. 2015-11-01T18:26:32Z Shinmera: It's not suitable for anything beyond what it does in qt-libs. 2015-11-01T18:26:36Z Bike: good stuff 2015-11-01T18:26:48Z Shinmera: Yeah. Fun times. :/ 2015-11-01T18:28:18Z Shinmera: Mostly though the intention behind ABCD and qt-libs are different. ABCD was supposed to be a potential replacement for things like make/cmake/whatnot, while qt-libs just has to look for libraries and if they don't appear, download them and invoke "cmake", then do some cleanup and organising. 2015-11-01T18:28:45Z Shinmera: So the overlap isn't that big to begin with. 2015-11-01T18:40:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T18:45:39Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:46:45Z myrkraverk: Ok, seems I get to create a custom system for my Kytea bindings. And they'll probably only work on the systems I use myself. 2015-11-01T18:48:00Z myrkraverk: It might help if I can get my C wrapper included in Kytea itself. Then the Lisp binding can stay Lisp-only. 2015-11-01T18:51:37Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:51:37Z erjoalgo: @beach thanks 2015-11-01T18:53:33Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-11-01T18:53:50Z erjoalgo: @ you can write a tail recursive function that swaps the arguments 2015-11-01T18:54:32Z erjoalgo: (defun interleave (a b) (cons (car a) (interleave (b a)))) 2015-11-01T18:55:02Z erjoalgo: (of course add a terminating condition) 2015-11-01T18:55:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:56:04Z erjoalgo: maybe (defun interleave (a b) (if a (cons (car a) (interleave (b a))) b)) 2015-11-01T18:56:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: erjoalgo: it's better not to do tail-recursion in Common Lisp :) 2015-11-01T18:56:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because you can't rely on TCO 2015-11-01T18:56:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can kinda emulate it, though, with tagbody and setf 2015-11-01T18:57:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: . . .and return-freom 2015-11-01T18:58:10Z erjoalgo: i've been working on SBCL, was having issues with a not-properly-tail-recursive function overflowing the stack. so I made it properly tail-recursive and it worked. I don't know about other implementations but I'm pretty sure SBCL does do it 2015-11-01T18:58:18Z resttime: fiddlerwoaroof: Do you mean across implementations? It's been pretty reliable on SBCL and I'm sure most of the others work too. 2015-11-01T18:58:20Z erjoalgo: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Debug-Tail-Recursion.html 2015-11-01T18:58:22Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T18:58:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: resttime: yeah, I just mean that it's non-standard 2015-11-01T18:58:40Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell erjoalgo about cl tco 2015-11-01T18:58:40Z Colleen: erjoalgo: The hyperspec does not require TCO. However, some implementations support it under certain circumstances. See http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html for an extensive survey. 2015-11-01T18:58:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: also, macros can make something that looks tail-recursive non recursive 2015-11-01T18:59:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/ \@>=recursive/tail/ 2015-11-01T18:59:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: resttime: in my experience, you have to (declare (optimize (speed (> 0))) to get TCO 2015-11-01T18:59:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: (on SBCL) 2015-11-01T19:00:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe it's because I usually put (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) in my sourece 2015-11-01T19:01:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:01:46Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T19:02:38Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-11-01T19:03:09Z resttime: Yeah, it's turned off if DEBUG > 2 2015-11-01T19:05:38Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:06:42Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T19:09:08Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:09:19Z lnostdal__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:10:23Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-01T19:10:48Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:14:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:14:58Z Petit_Dejeuner` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:15:19Z resttime: Speaking of TCO, I like how I can combine the optional argument: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158180 2015-11-01T19:16:39Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:16:55Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:17:00Z peytonien joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:17:13Z resttime: In Scheme, I think one would "normally" define an additional iterative procedure. 2015-11-01T19:19:17Z tsoutseki: why would someone choose to program in lisp over C or C++? 2015-11-01T19:19:36Z Shinmera: Why would someone choose to program in C++? 2015-11-01T19:19:36Z tsoutseki: why should I learn lisp? 2015-11-01T19:19:51Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T19:19:53Z phoe_krk: why should you learn at all? 2015-11-01T19:19:54Z resttime: Why do you want to learn lisp? 2015-11-01T19:19:59Z jackdaniel: tsoutseki: you shouldn't if you don't feel you want 2015-11-01T19:20:06Z blubjr: you should define an auxiliary function in cl too 2015-11-01T19:20:19Z tsoutseki: hmm 2015-11-01T19:20:46Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: I'm not your parent, I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do 2015-11-01T19:21:22Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, ok dad 2015-11-01T19:21:22Z phoe_krk: ...also, I just got why alexandria is called alexandria 2015-11-01T19:21:23Z resttime: blubjr: How come? I'm curious. 2015-11-01T19:21:27Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: aksjdgkjasdhgkjdsh 2015-11-01T19:21:38Z antoszka: tsoutseki: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 2015-11-01T19:21:52Z antoszka: (if you're asking sincere questions, which I sincerely doubt) 2015-11-01T19:21:58Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T19:22:04Z blubjr: because the accumulator isn't part of the function's interface 2015-11-01T19:22:36Z resttime: Hmmm, so it's a means of covering your bases, understood. 2015-11-01T19:22:37Z lnostdal__ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:23:09Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:23:19Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:23:22Z phf: blubjr: i don't think that thing is an accumulator, but rather a way to tack on an extra tail as part of unrelated process. it just gets carried through the execution 2015-11-01T19:23:36Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:24:04Z blubjr: sorry i was just going off the comparison to scheme 2015-11-01T19:24:35Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: more seriously now: what antoszka said, plus, for me, it's a great mind-exercise to have my mind kicked out from the C/C++/Java mindset, therefore making me more of a programmer and not a C/C++/Java coder 2015-11-01T19:25:07Z ajf-: is there a conditional syntax to denote whether a function is applied or not to the value? without having (if (func val) val) 2015-11-01T19:25:14Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, ok 2015-11-01T19:25:16Z tsoutseki: thanks 2015-11-01T19:25:19Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: also, the interactivity of the language. 2015-11-01T19:25:38Z antoszka: Yes, that's taken to the extreme in common lisp. 2015-11-01T19:25:48Z antoszka: Something hard to describe before you actually try. 2015-11-01T19:25:53Z phoe_krk: at some point, you end up with your program working, but you decide to change a little thing 2015-11-01T19:25:53Z antoszka: Or see a demo. 2015-11-01T19:26:34Z phoe_krk: so you fire up a lisp editor, change the function and recompile it on the fly while the program is running. boom, the change goes live that very moment. 2015-11-01T19:26:53Z phoe_krk: no need to shut your program down and wait for gcc/g++ to stop chewing. 2015-11-01T19:27:01Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:28:04Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:28:05Z phoe_krk: ...there was this video of someone Asian at some cyclic meeting who had this procedural music and video generation. 2015-11-01T19:28:09Z phoe_krk: anyone have a link at hand? 2015-11-01T19:28:21Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T19:28:22Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:28:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:28:53Z resttime: ajf-: Quote the expression and use that? 2015-11-01T19:29:29Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:29:46Z darwinvsjesus joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:29:50Z darwinvsjesus: holy shit, abelson is a autistic nigger. like, what was he going for with SICP? i was wondering why the book had 25% 1 star reviews and after reading it, i know see that the author has the shittiest approach of all critically-acclaimed compsci texts in the field. no wonder damn-near half of the reviewers hate this verbose, self-aggrandizing, bombastic piece of shit excuse for a book. 2015-11-01T19:30:13Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: wat 2015-11-01T19:30:17Z resttime: A macro sounds like it would work 2015-11-01T19:30:35Z antoszka: tsoutseki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_4vhsmRRI ← this is slightly dated, but should give you a nice insight into the interactive features 2015-11-01T19:30:40Z wailord: darwinvsjesus: wow 2015-11-01T19:30:51Z tsoutseki: antoszka, mhm 2015-11-01T19:30:51Z jackdaniel: darwinvsjesus: please leave with such kind of language 2015-11-01T19:31:37Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: -2/10, please try harder next time 2015-11-01T19:32:41Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:32:48Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:32:48Z derrida joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:32:48Z derrida quit (Changing host) 2015-11-01T19:32:48Z derrida joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:33:08Z darwinvsjesus: phoe_krk: lol rating opinions on a scale. xD who do you think you are, God? try again. i'm just posting my opinion and wondering why anyone could like this book, flamer. 2015-11-01T19:33:31Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: I'm not rating your opinion, I'm rating your attempt to troll. 2015-11-01T19:33:48Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T19:34:34Z darwinvsjesus: phoe_krk: except that's not what that post was, flamer. it was vulgar, yes, but i'm not trolling. the book is just trash, imo. try again and don't jump to conclusions this time. 2015-11-01T19:34:38Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:34:48Z Shinmera: darwinvsjesus: I am god and I think you should leave. 2015-11-01T19:34:54Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:34:58Z antoszka: darwinvsjesus: The book is about #scheme, you're trolling the wrong channel. 2015-11-01T19:35:15Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: imo, your post was a troll attempt. -4/10 for dragging this on. 2015-11-01T19:35:16Z axion: phoe_krk: may not be what you're looking for but awesome nontheless https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI 2015-11-01T19:35:21Z darwinvsjesus: the book IS NOT about scheme. you obviously haven't read it 2015-11-01T19:35:49Z darwinvsjesus: phoe_krk: incorrect. 2015-11-01T19:36:06Z H4ns: can someone help this person out, please_ 2015-11-01T19:36:20Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: not what I was looking for, indeed, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI 2015-11-01T19:36:43Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: correct. -5/10 please kindly move yourself to /dev/null 2015-11-01T19:37:20Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, are you trying to proselyte me to lisp 2015-11-01T19:37:42Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: no, I'm trying to find you some examples for the interactivity part. 2015-11-01T19:37:45Z darwinvsjesus: phoe_krk: ah, well, at least you know you're incorrect in your perception of my first post. 2015-11-01T19:37:47Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:37:50Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, ooh ok 2015-11-01T19:37:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:38:14Z phoe_krk: darwinvsjesus: no, I don't. I think I am correct and you aren't going to change that. 2015-11-01T19:38:34Z axion: the video link i posted above is a great example of interactive programming 2015-11-01T19:38:35Z darwinvsjesus: phoe_krk: you do. you just agreed, genius. try again. 2015-11-01T19:38:48Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:39:04Z darwinvsjesus quit (Quit: forget this. i'm not going to argue with an autist over his incorrect perceptions.) 2015-11-01T19:39:48Z Shinmera: Well that was mildly amusing. 2015-11-01T19:39:57Z phoe_krk: XD 2015-11-01T19:40:02Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: FOUND IT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkYUU0UoB_0 2015-11-01T19:40:08Z phoe_krk: that was what I looking for. 2015-11-01T19:40:18Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:40:59Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T19:41:13Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:41:40Z axion: phoe_krk: the same author/idea for the one i posted, but not an odd angle with blurry video 2015-11-01T19:41:53Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, right thanks! 2015-11-01T19:42:04Z phoe_krk: axion: yes, but that's a *live* video with actual audience. 2015-11-01T19:42:27Z phoe_krk: axion: more of a proof that this can and *is being* done live. 2015-11-01T19:42:40Z axion: if you say so 2015-11-01T19:42:52Z phoe_krk: axion: but thank you for the author, precisely the guy I was looking for. 2015-11-01T19:43:05Z phoe_krk: axion: and IMHO I like my video's music track more. :P 2015-11-01T19:43:17Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T19:44:48Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2015-11-01T19:45:05Z p_l has set mode +b *!*#@*184.6.41.196 2015-11-01T19:45:17Z p_l has set mode -b *!*#@*184.6.41.196 2015-11-01T19:45:22Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@*184.6.41.196 2015-11-01T19:46:14Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 2015-11-01T19:47:16Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:47:26Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:47:27Z tsoutseki: phoe_krk, i used to love programming and computers as a kid and i did good with my programming class now in college 2015-11-01T19:47:37Z tsoutseki: i dreamed of being a haxxor, studying mathematics 2015-11-01T19:47:47Z tsoutseki: but got bored of thinking and now i just like getting drunk 2015-11-01T19:48:10Z tsoutseki: btw nice video 2015-11-01T19:48:11Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: nothing stops you from getting bored of getting bored and going to fulfill your dreams 2015-11-01T19:48:19Z phoe_krk: tsoutseki: inorite? my favorite Lisp music vid 2015-11-01T19:48:27Z phoe_krk: even for just the soundtrack 2015-11-01T19:49:26Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T19:50:25Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:52:34Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T19:55:21Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T19:55:41Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:56:27Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T19:57:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T19:59:00Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:00:14Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:02:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:02:38Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:03:13Z grees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:04:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: should (pop (values 'foo)) work in ubiquitous? 2015-11-01T20:05:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. will it update the configuration file? 2015-11-01T20:05:39Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:06:14Z Shinmera: values is an accessor, so yes. 2015-11-01T20:06:22Z Shinmera: Trying it out will also tell you :) 2015-11-01T20:06:36Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:07:15Z sjl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T20:07:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I ask, because I'm trying to figure out if it not-working is a bug in my code :) 2015-11-01T20:08:30Z vydd: how portable is slot-value for structs? 2015-11-01T20:08:37Z vydd: also, hi! 2015-11-01T20:09:10Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/Tnpjdw== 2015-11-01T20:09:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I think I forgot to declare a variable special :) 2015-11-01T20:09:57Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:10:18Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:13:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:13:37Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-01T20:18:18Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T20:19:45Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:21:35Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-01T20:21:52Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:22:12Z reggy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T20:23:15Z erjoalgo: vydd it's probably pretty portable, i think it's part of the hyperspec http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2015-11-01T20:24:17Z White_Flame: basically, the question is how practically portable is it, vs is it mandated portable via the spec (doesn't seem like it) 2015-11-01T20:24:52Z White_Flame: "The consequences are specified if object has any other metaclass [than standard-class or built-in-class]" 2015-11-01T20:25:01Z White_Flame: arg, *un*specified, should have copy/pasted 2015-11-01T20:26:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:26:46Z vydd: thanks, yeah, that's why I'm asking; seems to work in sbcl & ccl, don't know about other implementations 2015-11-01T20:27:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:28:20Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-01T20:29:05Z peytonien quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-01T20:30:42Z vydd: I could always find-symbol and look for accessors, but that doesn't feel right to me 2015-11-01T20:30:54Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:32:02Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:33:04Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:35:19Z erjoalgo: just curious, what other implementations would you be targeting? 2015-11-01T20:36:00Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:36:38Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:37:03Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T20:37:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:37:19Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-11-01T20:37:41Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:38:28Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-01T20:40:51Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:42:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/uclip 2015-11-01T20:42:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:42:45Z Shinmera: That readme link ain't right 2015-11-01T20:42:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's still fairly hacked-together, but I hope to eventually figure out how to connect it to the X/Mac clipboards. 2015-11-01T20:42:56Z vydd: erjoalgo: not really "targeting"; I would just feel better about it if it was supported by major lisps 2015-11-01T20:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oops 2015-11-01T20:43:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: fixed. 2015-11-01T20:44:44Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:44:52Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:45:22Z Shinmera: Qt has tools to access the clipboard cross-platform, but pulling that in just for something simple as that would be a bit overblown. 2015-11-01T20:45:46Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T20:45:50Z Walex2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:46:31Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:46:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've used the Cocoa APIs for clipboard access before. 2015-11-01T20:46:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, have to run. 2015-11-01T20:47:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:51:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:51:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T20:52:02Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T20:52:44Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:53:05Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:53:11Z ggole quit 2015-11-01T20:58:14Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:58:40Z C4K3 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T20:58:54Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:02:59Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:03:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:03:48Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:03:49Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:04:20Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:05:06Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:07:21Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T21:08:31Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T21:09:43Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:11:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:11:30Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:14:06Z axion: i'm trying to find a bug - does anyone know if the LOOP UNTIL clause will do one last iteration when it is non-nil? 2015-11-01T21:14:23Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:14:47Z Shinmera: it does everything up until the UNTIL. 2015-11-01T21:15:44Z axion: that's strange. i fixed the bug with an unless form before the do clause, equal to the until form 2015-11-01T21:16:01Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T21:16:01Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:17:50Z yvm: /, + and * for (random 1000) (random 1.0d0) and (random 1000) (random 1000) gives almost the same time/CPU cycles result. How? SBCL, AMD Athlon II X3 445. 2015-11-01T21:22:21Z samssammerz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-01T21:22:23Z yvm: Uh, never mind. 2015-11-01T21:22:27Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T21:22:33Z yvm: I'm doing it wrong. 2015-11-01T21:26:44Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-01T21:26:50Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-11-01T21:28:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: then you get why com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum is called cesarum? 2015-11-01T21:28:31Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:28:50Z phoe_krk: pjb: ...there is no historically mentionworthy library of cesarum 2015-11-01T21:28:56Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:29:01Z phoe_krk: while there is a historically mentionworthy library of alexandria 2015-11-01T21:29:27Z pjb: But Cesarum was built on the cinders of Alexandria. 2015-11-01T21:29:33Z phoe_krk: ...oh 2015-11-01T21:29:38Z phoe_krk: that, I didn't know 2015-11-01T21:29:53Z pjb: This is what we call "history". What we didn't know… 2015-11-01T21:30:59Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-11-01T21:31:08Z phoe_krk: ...why does the name of this thing remind me of Java, and reminds me of Java in the bad way 2015-11-01T21:31:28Z pjb: the referse domain name prefixes are about the only good thing from Java. 2015-11-01T21:31:30Z pjb: reverse 2015-11-01T21:32:06Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:32:23Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:32:46Z phoe_krk: well, yes, but they're long as holy hell 2015-11-01T21:32:53Z C4K3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T21:32:55Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T21:33:15Z pjb: That's why there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname 2015-11-01T21:34:02Z phoe_krk: when you have to add a nickname to a nickname-adding function, something's not right 2015-11-01T21:34:16Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:34:20Z phoe_krk: s/have to/feel like you should/ 2015-11-01T21:34:23Z pjb: phoe_krk: it's called bootstrap. You clearly don't know enough to talk about it. 2015-11-01T21:35:54Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:36:32Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-11-01T21:37:00Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T21:38:00Z phoe_krk: but now I'm curious 2015-11-01T21:38:56Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:39:00Z kami left #lisp 2015-11-01T21:40:25Z phoe_krk: boostrapping *what*, exactly? 2015-11-01T21:40:51Z pjb: axion: you can place the until before after or in the middle of other clauses (but for clauses which come before). 2015-11-01T21:41:00Z pjb: phoe_krk: the nicknames! 2015-11-01T21:41:14Z phoe_krk: pjb: !? 2015-11-01T21:41:22Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:41:23Z pjb: phoe_krk: there are collisions between library names. We have 3 different clon libraries!!! 2015-11-01T21:42:06Z pjb: phoe_krk: in any case, short nicknames should never be assigned in distributed libraries or programs. Only the final user may use them. 2015-11-01T21:42:22Z phoe_krk: ...I see now 2015-11-01T21:43:03Z pjb: phoe_krk: also, eventually we'll have relative package names. 2015-11-01T21:43:03Z phoe_krk: ...oh okay, you can even define package nicknames yourself in Lisp so you can call them whatever you'd like in your application. 2015-11-01T21:43:24Z phoe_krk: is there something you can't define yourself in Lisp? 2015-11-01T21:43:26Z phoe_krk: [/sarcasm] 2015-11-01T21:43:31Z pjb: But not if you distribute your application, because then somebody may load it with another application using the same short nicknames for something else! 2015-11-01T21:43:54Z phoe_krk: pjb: is it impossible to define a package nickname only within a package? 2015-11-01T21:44:02Z pjb: Not yet. 2015-11-01T21:44:22Z phoe_krk: Is it implementation-dependent? 2015-11-01T21:44:45Z phoe_krk: Or could you just wrap your whole, whole code within a (with-nickname ...) macro? 2015-11-01T21:44:49Z phoe_krk: Because it sounds like you could. 2015-11-01T21:44:50Z pjb: Allegro CL has http://franz.com/support/documentation/8.1/doc/packages.htm#relative-2 but this has not been specified and ported to other implementations. 2015-11-01T21:44:52Z pjb: yet. 2015-11-01T21:45:00Z phoe_krk nod. 2015-11-01T21:45:11Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:45:49Z phoe_krk: An idea that popped into my head to define a nickname table and some sort of reader macro that triggers whenever you want to use a function from another package. 2015-11-01T21:46:18Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T21:46:27Z phoe_krk: So $mp:fn translates to com.collide.not.does.that.name.mypackage:fn 2015-11-01T21:46:37Z phoe_krk: $ being an example of the reader macro trigger character 2015-11-01T21:46:38Z pjb: Yes, with $ that would work. 2015-11-01T21:46:50Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-01T21:46:53Z phoe_krk: ...so a with-nicknames macro is doable? 2015-11-01T21:46:58Z pjb: No. 2015-11-01T21:47:02Z pjb: You need a reader macro. 2015-11-01T21:47:05Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:47:09Z nxtr_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:47:16Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:47:29Z pjb: Well, you can do something after the fact with a macro, but it's a brittle kludge. 2015-11-01T21:47:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T21:48:27Z phoe_krk: pjb: a reader macro that is. 2015-11-01T21:48:57Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:49:07Z phoe_krk: pjb: I have very little competence to do that, but I'll try to write it. 2015-11-01T21:51:34Z phoe_krk: pjb: would it be in good Lisp taste to define an earmuffed global symbol for a nickname table for the macro? 2015-11-01T21:52:42Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:52:55Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T21:54:32Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T21:58:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T21:59:23Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T22:00:16Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-01T22:00:45Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:03:06Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:03:55Z francogrex: I discovered a bug in a package at this stage: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158190 2015-11-01T22:03:56Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice that a-priory, the package nickname table could be associated to the package. 2015-11-01T22:04:20Z phoe_krk: yes, I see. 2015-11-01T22:04:22Z pjb: francogrex: what's the bug? 2015-11-01T22:04:40Z francogrex: 0 dim array 2015-11-01T22:04:46Z pjb: Yes. So what? 2015-11-01T22:04:54Z pjb: It's a scalar array, containing a single element, your vector. 2015-11-01T22:05:21Z pjb: (aref #0A42) #| --> 42 |# 2015-11-01T22:05:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:05:33Z francogrex: but this (apply #'aref table '(0 0 0)) is wrong 2015-11-01T22:05:37Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-01T22:05:42Z pjb: Hence the simple-error. 2015-11-01T22:05:46Z pjb: So all is right. 2015-11-01T22:06:00Z pjb: Also table is wrong, it should be *table*. 2015-11-01T22:06:15Z francogrex: yes the bug is not in cl but in the package itself 2015-11-01T22:06:30Z pjb: I see no package in this paste… 2015-11-01T22:06:38Z pjb: Hence, "where's the bug?" 2015-11-01T22:06:53Z francogrex: ok it is me stepping through cl-bayesnet 2015-11-01T22:06:54Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:07:07Z ryouma` left #lisp 2015-11-01T22:07:15Z pjb: Good. So I guess you could write a patch and post a pull request on that project. 2015-11-01T22:07:26Z francogrex: https://github.com/lhope/cl-bayesnet 2015-11-01T22:07:53Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T22:08:31Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:08:46Z francogrex: i will try 2015-11-01T22:10:48Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-11-01T22:12:45Z Xach: arrrgh 2015-11-01T22:15:20Z pjb: matey, go swab the deck you scurvy bastard! 2015-11-01T22:15:49Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T22:16:13Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:16:14Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-11-01T22:16:48Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:17:09Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-01T22:17:14Z Xach: right after I roll the october release, teepeedee2 is updated for the first time in a year to fix the problem that prompted its removal 2015-11-01T22:19:09Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:19:19Z pjb: Good, so it'll be back in November! :-) 2015-11-01T22:19:37Z Xach: yes 2015-11-01T22:19:42Z snv quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-01T22:19:45Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:20:32Z jfe: (- 1372.97 1360.45) 2015-11-01T22:20:40Z pjb: (- 1372.97 1360.45) #| --> 12.52002 |# 2015-11-01T22:20:44Z jfe: oops, sorry haha. 2015-11-01T22:20:52Z francogrex quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1) 2015-11-01T22:21:43Z pjb: jfe: you may want to have a look at: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-erc.el#L966 2015-11-01T22:21:58Z phoe_krk: pjb: if I create a package that's meant for external use, should I prefix all vars/functions/macros with packagename: ? 2015-11-01T22:22:21Z pjb: Only symbols can be qualified. 2015-11-01T22:22:26Z pjb: Depends in what package you're trying to read those symbols. 2015-11-01T22:22:26Z phoe_krk: I mean. 2015-11-01T22:22:42Z phoe_krk: I'll be trying to use macro mypkg:macro in other packages. 2015-11-01T22:22:51Z pjb: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 2015-11-01T22:23:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: usually the other package uses mypkg so you just write macro. 2015-11-01T22:23:17Z phoe_krk: oh. okay. 2015-11-01T22:23:29Z phoe_krk: but just in case of complete paranoia, should I qualify everything qualifiable? 2015-11-01T22:23:35Z pjb: Like, you use COMMON-LISP so you don't have to write (COMMON-LISP:IF (COMMON-LISP:= a b) (COMMON-LISP:PRINT 'equal)) 2015-11-01T22:23:46Z phoe_krk: yes, I know 2015-11-01T22:24:55Z pjb: The paranoia might be to use qualified symbols, since, eg. when you write MCCLIM applications, you do want to use MCCLIM:DEFCLASS and MCCLIM:DEFMETHOD instead of CL:DEFCLASS and CL:DEFMETHOD. Then it's better to use the MCCLIM package and write defclass and defmethod to get the right symbols. 2015-11-01T22:25:59Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:26:22Z pjb: phoe_krk: also, even when you use qualified symbols, you might have reader macros that will interpret them differently. 2015-11-01T22:29:39Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:30:08Z tharugrim quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-01T22:38:09Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:39:22Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:50:10Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:51:16Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:52:01Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:52:22Z lnostdal__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:52:55Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-01T22:53:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:53:42Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:54:05Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T22:54:07Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:54:24Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T22:54:57Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T22:58:38Z Nikotiin` is now known as Nikotiini 2015-11-01T23:01:28Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:06:22Z lnostdal__ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:12:06Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T23:12:23Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:14:46Z phoe_krk: Are NIL and T valid package names? 2015-11-01T23:14:51Z vydd quit 2015-11-01T23:15:14Z Xach: phoe_krk: those are symbols. package names are strings. "NIL" and "T" are fine. 2015-11-01T23:16:06Z Xach: phoe_krk: "COMMON-LISP" and "COMMON-LISP-USER" and "KEYWORD" (and their nicknames) are specified. any other string is allowed, though your implementation probably has many of its own as part of the system. 2015-11-01T23:20:12Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:21:18Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T23:27:18Z phoe_krk: Is there a version of getf with a modifiable predicate? I need string= and not eq. 2015-11-01T23:29:17Z Raimondi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-01T23:29:44Z phoe_krk: oh okay 2015-11-01T23:29:49Z phoe_krk: I'll do it tomorrow, too late for that. 2015-11-01T23:29:56Z phoe_krk: pjb: 2015-11-01T23:30:01Z phoe_krk: night, #parens 2015-11-01T23:30:25Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-01T23:31:05Z pjb: phoe_krk: "" is a valid package name (not all implementations support it) (defpackage "" (:use)) '||::|| 2015-11-01T23:32:45Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-01T23:34:10Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-01T23:38:06Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T23:42:53Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:43:03Z samssammerz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T23:43:33Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-01T23:44:44Z phoe_krk: oh okay 2015-11-01T23:44:48Z phoe_krk: just one more thing before going to sleep 2015-11-01T23:45:19Z phoe_krk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3017225/can-getf-use-equal-for-comparison-instead-of-eq-common-lisp <= I'm using the fixed version from the mostvoted answer. 2015-11-01T23:45:55Z phoe_krk: How should I begin writing a setf expansion for it? 2015-11-01T23:46:28Z Bike: use member, if it's non-nil (setf second), if it is nil put it on the front 2015-11-01T23:46:30Z Bike: or something like that 2015-11-01T23:46:40Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-01T23:47:39Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:50:11Z phoe_krk: Let's say I write a setf expander of (defun string=-getf (plist indicator) ...). How, inside a (defun (setf string=-getf) (...) ...), do I access the plist and indicator the string=-getf is called with? 2015-11-01T23:52:41Z ajf-: sort a list by resemblence to another list ? 2015-11-01T23:52:51Z ajf-: so sort by ordered difference basically 2015-11-01T23:53:00Z phoe_krk: hm? 2015-11-01T23:53:03Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:53:03Z ajf-: any ideas ? 2015-11-01T23:53:51Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-01T23:54:05Z phoe_krk: oh, for me, it looks like defsetf will do 2015-11-01T23:56:40Z phoe_krk: night 2015-11-01T23:59:50Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-02T00:02:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T00:02:16Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T00:02:50Z nxtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T00:04:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T00:04:46Z Yuuhi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T00:15:21Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T00:18:47Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T00:20:30Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T00:25:52Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I happen to be stuffing everything into a constructor, so making changes there requires restarting the app 2015-11-02T01:00:10Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T01:01:39Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:06:58Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T01:08:35Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T01:09:19Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:09:57Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T01:10:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:12:15Z wuzzzz: pillton: thanks 2015-11-02T01:13:12Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:13:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:32:18Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T01:37:14Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:40:30Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T01:48:06Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T01:48:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:49:29Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:50:09Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:54:50Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:54:54Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T01:56:36Z phf: how can i force asdf to recompile/reload the package after it's already been loaded (i.e. redo everything, instead of just picking up changes)? 2015-11-02T01:58:56Z Guest68270 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:59:07Z yggds1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:59:53Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T01:59:58Z drmeister: How does one loop over a list and for every element loop over the remainder of the list from that element on? 2015-11-02T02:01:16Z drmeister: I want to compare every entry of a list with every other entry of the list. 2015-11-02T02:01:23Z phf: drmeister: you mean something like (loop for (a . rest) on ... do (loop for b in rest do ...)) ? 2015-11-02T02:01:24Z Hogget joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:02:20Z drmeister: I think so - so that's how you do it. 2015-11-02T02:02:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:03:08Z Hogget: Whatever came of the new "Propagator" paradigm for a programming language? 2015-11-02T02:04:38Z wuzzzz: drmeister: I like to start with something like (my compare orig-list (cdr orig-list)) 2015-11-02T02:04:41Z pjb: drmeister: or you use maplist (if you want to map like that). 2015-11-02T02:05:23Z pjb: (maplist (lambda (tail) (member (first tail) (rest tail))) '(1 2 3 1 2 4 1)) #| --> ((1 . #1=(2 4 . #2=(1))) #1# nil #2# nil nil nil) |# 2015-11-02T02:06:53Z jlarocco_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T02:07:23Z Fare: Hogget: a new Haskell library 2015-11-02T02:07:37Z phf: (to answer my previous question: "It is sometimes useful to force recompilation of a previously loaded system. For these cases, (asdf:clear-system :foo) will remove the system from the table of currently loaded systems: the next time the system foo or one that depends on it is re-loaded, foo will be loaded again.") 2015-11-02T02:08:09Z pjb: But not recompiled. 2015-11-02T02:08:13Z Hogget: Fare: you mean i should write a new Haskell lib? 2015-11-02T02:08:13Z pjb: So no answer. 2015-11-02T02:08:33Z pjb: phf: you want to remove the compiled version in ~/.cache/common-lisp/ first. 2015-11-02T02:09:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:10:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T02:10:38Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T02:10:45Z Fare: Hogget: I mean kmett has been commenting about it. 2015-11-02T02:11:08Z pillton: phf: (asdf:load-system "system" :force t) 2015-11-02T02:11:15Z Hogget: Fare: where? 2015-11-02T02:13:55Z drmeister: phf, pjb, wuzzzz: Thank you. 2015-11-02T02:14:18Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:17:41Z phf: pillton: thanks! 2015-11-02T02:18:19Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:19:11Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-02T02:19:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T02:27:17Z incal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:28:44Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T02:35:39Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:36:25Z Fare: Hogget, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10390477 2015-11-02T02:36:50Z Hogget: Fare: thanks a bunch 2015-11-02T02:37:35Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:38:51Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:40:41Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T02:40:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:45:10Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:46:24Z phf: cffi docs say that you can't define translations for types defined with defctype, but i'm looking at some old (2008?) code that's trying to use (type (eql 'foo)) trick. the trick doesn't seem to work. is this something that used to be supported but isn't anymore? 2015-11-02T02:46:57Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:47:15Z fortitude left #lisp 2015-11-02T02:49:46Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:49:50Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T02:55:22Z emacsomancer is now known as emacsomancer0 2015-11-02T02:56:41Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T02:58:17Z incal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:02:17Z emacsomancer0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T03:04:35Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:06:38Z yggds1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:07:20Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-02T03:10:19Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:10:43Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T03:11:30Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:12:09Z wuzzzz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:18:39Z v_diddy is now known as ben_vulpes 2015-11-02T03:19:36Z emacsomancer is now known as emacsomancer0 2015-11-02T03:21:39Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:23:08Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T03:25:02Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T03:25:37Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:28:51Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T03:37:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:44:53Z resttime: Connecting simple things between mathematics and Common Lisp makes me feel happy. 2015-11-02T03:45:52Z resttime: Like finding a friend popping in at an event. 2015-11-02T03:46:39Z resttime: "Hey buddy, you came here too? No way!" 2015-11-02T03:48:53Z loke: resttime: I think you have to provide more context here. 2015-11-02T03:48:56Z loke: What maths? 2015-11-02T03:50:30Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:54:55Z Zhivago: Perhaps arithmetic. 2015-11-02T03:55:43Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T03:58:24Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-02T03:58:59Z resttime: loke: Anything really though I guess a simple example would be expansion (a + b)^2 = (a + b)(a + b) = a^2 + 2ab + b^2 2015-11-02T03:59:32Z resttime: Finding (a - b)^2 is essentially (a + (-b))^2 so a^2 - 2ab + b^2 2015-11-02T03:59:33Z loke: resttime: How does that relate to CL? (other than the fact that they can be expressed as sexps) 2015-11-02T04:00:10Z resttime: Thinking in terms of anonymous functions, they are like the "same" 2015-11-02T04:02:17Z resttime: Errr I don't really mean to try to make it seem more profound than it probably is 2015-11-02T04:03:06Z resttime: I just like connecting concepts because they start to merge and give a satisfying feeling. 2015-11-02T04:03:33Z Zhivago: You might find prolog more interesting in that it's about equations rather than functions. 2015-11-02T04:04:59Z lnostdal__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:05:19Z resttime: Like something as simple as associativity (a + b) + c = a + (b + c), as two lambdas on each side 2015-11-02T04:08:07Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:08:17Z Guest68270 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T04:09:17Z Hogget: resttime: Lately i've been getting hints that computer algorithms are not exactly Mathematical, even when they handle math problems. 2015-11-02T04:10:21Z Zhivago: An algorithm is a procedural implementation of a function, so they are. 2015-11-02T04:10:27Z Zhivago: But many procedures are not algorithms. 2015-11-02T04:11:02Z Hogget: Zhivago: of a math function, you mean? 2015-11-02T04:11:14Z Zhivago: That's the only kind. 2015-11-02T04:11:33Z randommelon left #lisp 2015-11-02T04:12:59Z Hogget: isn't a machine procedure function different than a math function? 2015-11-02T04:13:23Z Zhivago: I think the fact that you pointed out that it is a procedure is a good indication that it isn't a function. 2015-11-02T04:14:30Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:14:35Z Hogget: a programming function that handles some string of text is still called . . . a function, no? 2015-11-02T04:15:12Z Zhivago: Many things are poorly named -- C functions are procedures, for example. 2015-11-02T04:15:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:15:38Z Zhivago: But dealing with strings doesn't mean that something is not a function. 2015-11-02T04:16:24Z Hogget: that's probably where the assumption that all computer procedures are mathematical comes from. 2015-11-02T04:17:09Z Zhivago: Well, no procedure is mathematical. 2015-11-02T04:17:54Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:18:12Z Hogget: and every computer program is a procedure . . . ergo, . . . 2015-11-02T04:18:41Z Zhivago: That is incorrect. 2015-11-02T04:19:03Z Zhivago: There are many computer programs which are functions. 2015-11-02T04:19:07Z Hogget: show me a computer function that is not a procedure. 2015-11-02T04:19:30Z lnostdal__ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:20:00Z Zhivago: Any function in a language which supports actual functions -- e.g., haskell. 2015-11-02T04:20:18Z _leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-02T04:20:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:21:13Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:21:36Z resttime: Zhivago: I'm curious, what are your definitions of function and procedure? 2015-11-02T04:22:36Z Zhivago: A function is a relationship between domain and range, a procedure is a sequence of operations over time. 2015-11-02T04:23:45Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:23:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:24:17Z resttime: int plus-one (int a) { return a + 1; } ? 2015-11-02T04:24:25Z Hogget: After the Haskell programmer is done writing his funciton to process a mathematical function, the compiler follows a procedure. A computer does procedures. 2015-11-02T04:24:32Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:25:08Z Hogget: compiler, or interpreter. 2015-11-02T04:25:16Z Zhivago: hogget: You're confusing two different programs. 2015-11-02T04:25:30Z Zhivago: hogget: The programmer writes a program which specifies a function. 2015-11-02T04:25:30Z Hogget: no; same process. 2015-11-02T04:25:52Z Zhivago: Someone might then transate that program into another program which specifies a procedure which has equivalent behavior to the function. 2015-11-02T04:26:11Z Zhivago: Those are not the same program. 2015-11-02T04:26:30Z resttime: Ah, plus-one is not a "function" because of overflow 2015-11-02T04:26:39Z Bike: no 2015-11-02T04:26:42Z Hogget: point is that the computer has to follow a procedure in order to achieve the result of a math function. 2015-11-02T04:26:46Z Zhivago: (And it's easy to understand that they're not the same program because compilation is not reversible) 2015-11-02T04:26:52Z Bike: plus one can be a function, it may use modular arithmetic 2015-11-02T04:26:53Z Zhivago: Hogget: Which computer? 2015-11-02T04:26:55Z Bike: or have infinite domain and range 2015-11-02T04:27:20Z Hogget: Zhivago: a silicon, or vacuum tubes, computer 2015-11-02T04:27:28Z Bike: by the way, as long as the topic is arguing about words, the writer being a him is unnecessarily restrictive 2015-11-02T04:27:54Z Hogget: ;) 2015-11-02T04:28:02Z Hogget: a shim 2015-11-02T04:28:17Z Zhivago: bike: 'him' is gender neutral in English. 2015-11-02T04:28:24Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T04:28:36Z resttime: Bike: Then what makes a C "function" a "procedure" as Zhivago says? 2015-11-02T04:28:45Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:28:56Z Bike: because c "functions" are defined in terms of a virtual machine that carries out procedures 2015-11-02T04:29:13Z Zhivago: A C function is a sequence of operations over time. 2015-11-02T04:29:15Z Bike: whereas haskell functions can just functions, sometimes, probably 2015-11-02T04:29:22Z Bike: just be 2015-11-02T04:30:07Z Bike: the best part about computers, of course, is that proving an algorithm computes a function is impossible 2015-11-02T04:30:41Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:30:49Z Zhivago: bike: On what grounds? 2015-11-02T04:31:03Z Bike: rice's theorem 2015-11-02T04:31:59Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:32:30Z Hogget: Let's say register A=1001, and register B=1010 . . . show me how a function "just is" between them. 2015-11-02T04:32:48Z Zhivago: bike: That's not true for particular functions and particular algorithms. 2015-11-02T04:33:18Z resttime: Am I missing some kind of semantic? Couldn't I have C "functions" compiled as a library? Wouldn't Haskell "functions" be the same then? 2015-11-02T04:33:54Z Bike: being in a library doesn't make you non procedural 2015-11-02T04:34:58Z resttime: The "over time" aspect is removed like Haskell function definitions at that point wouldn't it? 2015-11-02T04:34:59Z Hogget: it's what we do with computers . . . procedures. 2015-11-02T04:35:19Z Bike: i didn't really get the whole partial function algorithm procedure mumbo-jumbo before reading a nice book on it, or at least the review in An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications, so if you're interested i'd suggest reading such a book 2015-11-02T04:35:49Z Zhivago: resttime: You can have a procedure and a function which are equivalent. 2015-11-02T04:36:43Z resttime: Doesn't that literally mean they are the same thing? 2015-11-02T04:36:43Z pillton: You can have many procedures and a single function that are equivalent. 2015-11-02T04:36:45Z ack006 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:37:10Z Bike: there are other equivalence predicates which in respect to they are not equivalent 2015-11-02T04:37:55Z Zhivago: resttime: Only in their application. 2015-11-02T04:38:16Z Zhivago: resttime: They will differ with respect to decomposibility and so on. 2015-11-02T04:39:07Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T04:40:02Z yggds left #lisp 2015-11-02T04:41:34Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T04:42:23Z phf: so cffi docs say that "To extend the CFFI type system by performing custom translations, this method [translate-from-foreign] may be specialized by EQL-specializing type-name on a symbol naming a foreign type defined with defctype." but it looks like even with the specializer defined, when doing defcfun, base-type is used in macro expansion, so the specializer is never used 2015-11-02T04:42:53Z resttime: Hmmm... would it be related like how C "functions" aren't able to be passed around like in Haskell and Lisp? 2015-11-02T04:43:28Z Bike: not related 2015-11-02T04:43:44Z Bike: especially since you can pass around c functions 2015-11-02T04:44:17Z Zhivago: Well, pointers to them, anyhow. 2015-11-02T04:44:53Z resttime: Zhivago: Can you explain to me more about this decomposibility? 2015-11-02T04:45:46Z Zhivago: resttime: Think about what functions and procedures are composed from. Now reverse the process. 2015-11-02T04:50:58Z resttime: Hmmmm, so the difference in C and Haskell how you're able to call them? 2015-11-02T04:51:30Z resttime: All "functions" in C end up being a procedure that is 2015-11-02T04:51:44Z samssammerz: Zhivago, I'm not clear what you are saying either. Are you saying that because procedures are a sequence of operations over time that *when* they are executed matters, whereas for functions (which always map the same input to the same output), time is irrelevant? 2015-11-02T04:52:27Z Bike: it's comparing apples and oranges, that's all 2015-11-02T04:52:36Z Bike: a procedure is a sequence of operations, a function is a map from inputs to outputs 2015-11-02T04:52:42Z Bike: no use overthinking it 2015-11-02T04:53:06Z resttime: In Haskell because you're able to call the "function" at any time it is a function 2015-11-02T04:53:21Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-02T04:53:34Z Zhivago: Assuming that the procedure implements the function, then calling them should be equivalent. 2015-11-02T04:53:37Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-02T04:53:50Z Zhivago: But the procedure is composed from smaller procedures, and the function is composed from smaller functions. 2015-11-02T04:53:55Z Bike: sometimes there are procedures that start with one set of data and end with another set, and these sets correspond to the input/output of a function, so we say the procedure implements the function because talking for long periods of time dries out your throat 2015-11-02T04:54:05Z Zhivago: There is no equivalence expected between those sub-procedure and sub-functions. 2015-11-02T04:55:08Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-02T04:58:56Z resttime: I guess the problem I have here is that I am unable to see how that invalidates plus-one, a C "function", from being a function 2015-11-02T04:59:48Z Zhivago: resttime: That it contains sequence points. 2015-11-02T05:03:53Z resttime: So plus-one acts as a function but implemented as a procedure? 2015-11-02T05:04:14Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:07:50Z resttime: It's just return a + 1; 2015-11-02T05:08:03Z resttime: plusOne :: Integer -> Integer 2015-11-02T05:08:13Z resttime: plusOne a = a + 1 2015-11-02T05:08:13Z raphaelss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T05:08:55Z resttime: int plusOne (int a) { return a + 1; } 2015-11-02T05:11:07Z Zhivago: plusOne(1) contains two sequence points one after the evaluation of the argument and before the call, and another after the addition and before the return. 2015-11-02T05:11:33Z emacsomancer0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:12:33Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:13:22Z emacsomancer left #lisp 2015-11-02T05:16:16Z resttime: plusOne a = let b = a 2015-11-02T05:16:23Z resttime: in a + 1 2015-11-02T05:16:47Z resttime: errr 2015-11-02T05:16:52Z resttime: b + 1 2015-11-02T05:17:37Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:18:46Z resttime: Ah wait, that's inside the function 2015-11-02T05:18:58Z resttime: Hmmmm 2015-11-02T05:19:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:19:45Z resttime: Okay I think I get it, there's a casting of the argument for the C function 2015-11-02T05:20:03Z huza joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:20:56Z MikeSeth joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:21:25Z MikeSeth: is there any relationship between cl-sdl2 and lispbuildersdl? 2015-11-02T05:21:44Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T05:22:32Z resttime: MikeSeth: None that I know of other than SDL2 and SDL1.2 2015-11-02T05:23:18Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:23:21Z MikeSeth: thanks 2015-11-02T05:25:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:28:29Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:30:08Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:32:12Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:32:30Z phf: hmm, cffi is ... odd. 2015-11-02T05:32:54Z resttime: Zhivago: Hmmm, I guess the difference is still a bit fuzzy to me but I'll update my mental model accordingly and read about sequence points, I did not know those were an actual "thing" 2015-11-02T05:33:03Z resttime: Thanks 2015-11-02T05:34:54Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:35:18Z phf: there's generics based runtime conversion, but you can't use it with defctype's (though docs insist in one place that you can), instead defctype comes with a totally left field :wrapper :from-c :to-c extension, that ultimately relies on the generics based mechanism. 2015-11-02T05:43:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:45:12Z Zhivago: resttime: You're welcome. 2015-11-02T05:46:26Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-11-02T05:49:45Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:51:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:52:37Z clop joined #lisp 2015-11-02T05:52:57Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T05:56:40Z resttime: phf: Yeah, I remember my XP with CFFI was I had to use DEFINE-FOREIGN-TYPE to emulate the casting that C does automatically 2015-11-02T05:57:44Z resttime: So like a C function was expecting 3 floats so I made a foreign type C-FLOAT which when translating would cast anything like an integer to float before passing it. 2015-11-02T05:58:08Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T05:58:52Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T05:59:30Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T06:03:11Z phf: in general, that's a useful feature. but the way it works has changed breaking old code and the replacement is inadequate/requires patching a lot of code 2015-11-02T06:03:56Z phf: sop in programming, but lisp seemed to be immune for the longest time 2015-11-02T06:05:14Z phf: my personal pet peve is the local-time -> timestamp rename, what a utterly gratuitous way to break legacy code for minor nomenclature reasons 2015-11-02T06:07:16Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:08:30Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:09:06Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T06:16:12Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:21:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T06:22:05Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T06:22:07Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:23:24Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:35:08Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-02T06:35:39Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:37:00Z pjb: Hogget: you need to read the chapter 7 of r5rs. 2015-11-02T06:37:35Z Hogget: pjb: cool. will do. 2015-11-02T06:38:05Z pjb: Hogget: any program is a mathematical structure. It may look different from a mathematical function, but since you can use lambda calculus as the axiomatic basis of all mathematics, it is "trivially" a mathematical function. 2015-11-02T06:38:12Z pjb: Even if it's not an algorithm! 2015-11-02T06:38:48Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T06:38:51Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-02T06:39:01Z pjb: But of course, this is like saying you're a probability wave. 2015-11-02T06:39:58Z White_Flame: sequence also interplays with dependency, which can all be parameterized 2015-11-02T06:41:19Z White_Flame: and things like abstract interpretation can do interesting things to blur the boundaries between procedure and function 2015-11-02T06:41:26Z pjb: Hogget: computers themselves can be represented as mathematical functions, so… 2015-11-02T06:42:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:43:30Z Hogget: i suppose any calculus function is a procedure 2015-11-02T06:44:18Z Zhivago: No. It's a function. But there are procedures which can be used to approximate their integrals. 2015-11-02T06:44:38Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T06:46:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T06:46:20Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:46:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:48:13Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T06:48:30Z Hogget: hmm . . . 2015-11-02T06:48:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T06:49:37Z pjb: Hogget: how do you implement mutation in Haskell, which is a purely functional language, that is, basically where you have mathematical functions? 2015-11-02T06:50:28Z pjb: Hogget: you use a monad. 2015-11-02T06:50:34Z pjb: Hogget: Any procedure which has side effect is equivalent to a mathematical function with a monad. 2015-11-02T06:51:25Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-02T06:51:38Z pjb: Is therefore trivial to demonstrate that the whole computer (with the associated parts of the universe the computer affects by side effect) can be represented as a mathematical pure function. 2015-11-02T06:52:12Z pjb: Hogget: if you want, you can take the problem from the other side: the whole universe is described by quantum mechanics mathematical functions. So there. 2015-11-02T06:52:19Z White_Flame: one could consider the expressions passed to a monad as a procedure 2015-11-02T06:52:25Z White_Flame: (if I understand monads correctly) 2015-11-02T06:52:36Z pjb: Yes, of course. 2015-11-02T06:57:43Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:03:55Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-02T07:05:58Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:07:34Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:09:05Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:09:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:15:17Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:29:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:32:52Z samssammerz: pjb, Can you point me to a proof that the whole universe can be modeled using quantum mechanics? 2015-11-02T07:33:31Z Zhivago: pjb and the factual world have a tenuous link. 2015-11-02T07:35:13Z jackc- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T07:35:21Z jackc- joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:35:49Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:36:36Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:37:02Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:38:01Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:38:24Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:40:31Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-02T07:42:15Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:42:24Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:43:02Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:43:06Z pjb: samssammerz: There's no proof to be understood. Ask a physicist. 2015-11-02T07:43:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:43:40Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:43:59Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:44:30Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:44:52Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:45:28Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:47:07Z samssammerz: So I should just ask a physicist to say it to me, and then accept it on faith? 2015-11-02T07:47:48Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-02T07:47:53Z pjb: That's the exact word. 2015-11-02T07:48:17Z samssammerz: Kewl! 2015-11-02T07:49:54Z Zhivago: And if there were a reconciliation of quantum mechanics and relativity, then they might manage it. 2015-11-02T07:50:03Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-02T07:51:21Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:53:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:55:13Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T07:56:32Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T07:57:03Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-02T07:58:15Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:01:25Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T08:02:03Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:13:17Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:14:28Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:16:03Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:16:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:16:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T08:17:03Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:17:29Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:17:37Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:18:17Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:19:35Z Hogget quit (Quit: -f) 2015-11-02T08:21:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T08:23:13Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:23:17Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:24:26Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:24:51Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:25:15Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T08:25:24Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:32:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:33:32Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T08:35:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:37:50Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:39:24Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T08:42:16Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-02T08:43:54Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:45:08Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T08:46:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T08:51:05Z balle joined #lisp 2015-11-02T08:58:11Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:01:36Z nxtr_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:01:37Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:02:06Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:02:10Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:02:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:04:21Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:05:31Z nxtr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T09:06:26Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:07:57Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T09:14:06Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:15:32Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T09:16:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:22:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:23:08Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:23:31Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:23:34Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Instead of making their site serve https when you explicitly put that at the front of the url, they just redirect you to their http site. 2015-11-02T09:35:29Z namespace claps 2015-11-02T09:36:04Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T09:37:59Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T09:39:26Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:39:52Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:41:57Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:44:35Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:55:16Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:56:13Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:56:44Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-11-02T09:57:26Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:57:46Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T09:59:05Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-02T10:04:36Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-02T10:05:01Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T10:06:48Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-11-02T10:11:14Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(:shadow #:export) ..) 2015-11-02T11:03:36Z Posterdati: ok thanks 2015-11-02T11:03:49Z Posterdati: I could access it as: gpio:export 2015-11-02T11:05:11Z larsen joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:05:36Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:06:13Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: (defpackage #:gpio 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: (:use #:cl) 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: (:shadow #:export) 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: (:export #:gpio-device 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: #:file-pathname-from-number 2015-11-02T11:06:23Z Posterdati: #:unexport 2015-11-02T11:06:24Z Posterdati: #:exported-p)) 2015-11-02T11:06:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:06:42Z Posterdati: Shinmera: not working 2015-11-02T11:06:45Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:06:54Z Shinmera: You still need to export it. And don't paste in here. Ever. 2015-11-02T11:07:31Z Posterdati: ok, working! 2015-11-02T11:07:33Z Posterdati: sorry 2015-11-02T11:08:41Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:10:27Z pjb: Posterdati: (defpackage "P" (:use "CL" "GPIO") (:shadowing-import-from "GPIO" "EXPORT)) (in-package "P") (assert (eq 'export 'gpio:export)) 2015-11-02T11:12:12Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:12:26Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:13:29Z Posterdati: pjb: thanks 2015-11-02T11:15:01Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:17:12Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:18:54Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:25:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:27:30Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:29:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:33:32Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:33:44Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:33:57Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:34:30Z rootwang quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T11:34:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:35:23Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:37:27Z leafybas_ quit 2015-11-02T11:37:41Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:39:06Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:42:05Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-02T11:42:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:43:54Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:54:45Z phoe_krk: pjb: should nicknaming a package to itself trigger an error, warning, or go silently? 2015-11-02T11:55:22Z Shinmera: clhs make-package 2015-11-02T11:55:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm 2015-11-02T11:55:24Z Shinmera: "A correctable error is signaled if the package-name or any of the nicknames is already the name or nickname of an existing package." 2015-11-02T11:55:48Z Shinmera: Though it is questionable whether that applies to nicknames being the same as the package name. 2015-11-02T11:56:11Z phoe_krk: Hence I ask. Technically, the name is already taken: it's the name of an existing package. 2015-11-02T11:56:22Z phoe_krk: Just like nicknaming "usocket" to "usocket"; "usocket" is taken, hence, error. 2015-11-02T11:56:23Z Shinmera: clhs rename-package 2015-11-02T11:56:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm 2015-11-02T11:56:25Z Shinmera: "The consequences are undefined if new-name or any new-nickname conflicts with any existing package names." 2015-11-02T11:56:34Z phoe_krk: I'll just err then. 2015-11-02T11:57:58Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T11:58:46Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:00:14Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:01:46Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T12:03:34Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T12:03:36Z ryu0: I have a question regarding symbol names. Are they case insensitive? the set function for example works regardless of case. 2015-11-02T12:04:00Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:05:28Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:05:29Z Shinmera: Symbol names are case sensitive 2015-11-02T12:05:42Z jackdaniel: ryu0: by default if you write 'bah it's upcased 2015-11-02T12:05:53Z ryu0: Oh, it is? 2015-11-02T12:05:53Z Shinmera: The default readtable case is set to :upcase though, meaning usually your symbols will be automatically turned to uppercase and thus appear "case insensitive" 2015-11-02T12:05:53Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:05:55Z jackdaniel: but you can do something like '|abc| 2015-11-02T12:05:58Z jackdaniel: then you have the lowercase 2015-11-02T12:06:03Z Shinmera: (readtable-case *readtable*) 2015-11-02T12:06:10Z ryu0: the behavior made me think they were case insensitive. 2015-11-02T12:06:39Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-02T12:06:41Z jackdaniel: no, symbols have all properties of the strings (plus some more, like eq) 2015-11-02T12:07:13Z jackdaniel: and it's a loose meaning of the word "property", I'm not saying you should treat them as strings 2015-11-02T12:07:17Z Shinmera: ? Symbols don't have properties of strings. Symbols haev a name, which is a string. 2015-11-02T12:07:18Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:07:21Z Shinmera: *have 2015-11-02T12:07:40Z ryu0: my book hasn't yet covered CL strings. 2015-11-02T12:08:10Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:08:18Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T12:08:39Z ryu0: i wonder what ansi common lisp provides... hopefully as much as POSIX does for C... 2015-11-02T12:08:48Z ryu0: or more. 2015-11-02T12:09:28Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:10:09Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:10:43Z ryu0: my book discussed ratios as a number type. are they same as math fractions? 2015-11-02T12:11:01Z Shinmera: clhs ratio 2015-11-02T12:11:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ratio.htm 2015-11-02T12:11:01Z ryu0: *the same* 2015-11-02T12:11:23Z freehck` joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:11:33Z ryu0: sounds like a fraction reduced to lowest terms. 2015-11-02T12:12:08Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T12:12:10Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:12:18Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:12:26Z ryu0: interesting. 2015-11-02T12:13:04Z ryu0: i think i'm going to like arithmetic that isn't limited to fixed size integers. 2015-11-02T12:13:09Z ryu0: :D 2015-11-02T12:13:13Z Shinmera: It is very comfortable. 2015-11-02T12:13:34Z jackdaniel: remember though that it might be less efficent 2015-11-02T12:13:40Z jackdaniel: if you use bignums 2015-11-02T12:13:42Z ryu0: i know. 2015-11-02T12:13:49Z Shinmera: It also means things like the airplane software bug this year that caused a complete system shutdown because of an integer timer overflow can't happen unless you really try to. 2015-11-02T12:13:51Z ryu0: but it's nice to not just have it silently overflow. 2015-11-02T12:13:59Z ryu0: or rather wraparound. 2015-11-02T12:14:08Z jackdaniel: yeah, it's a feature, no doubt :-) 2015-11-02T12:14:11Z ryu0: that seems to rarely be what you want. 2015-11-02T12:14:33Z Shinmera: Modular arithmetic is useful, but you rarely want the modulus to be exactly a machine word big. 2015-11-02T12:15:12Z ryu0: and, i still have the option of trying to optimize in CL or using C if i must. 2015-11-02T12:16:10Z Shinmera: You might get wraparound behaviour if you do something like (declare (fixnum a) (optimize speed (safety 0) (debug 0))) 2015-11-02T12:16:23Z Shinmera: But, refer to your implementation at hand for such behaviour. 2015-11-02T12:16:35Z ryu0: true. i don't intend to optimize without care. :P 2015-11-02T12:16:41Z Shinmera: Good! 2015-11-02T12:16:50Z jackdaniel: btw if you want bignums in C check the gmp library 2015-11-02T12:19:24Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:19:32Z ryu0: if my book is correct, CL doesn't perform integer division (or whatever the one that returns a remainder as well is called) when division is used? it returns an integer, ratio, or floating point depending on the situation? 2015-11-02T12:20:04Z Shinmera: It performs arithmetically correct results, yes. 2015-11-02T12:20:19Z ryu0: ah. i'll need to remember that when using division. 2015-11-02T12:20:20Z Shinmera: *it returns 2015-11-02T12:20:28Z ryu0: used to C division when i work with integers. 2015-11-02T12:20:47Z Shinmera: I don't recall when I ever wanted the C division behaviour to be honest. 2015-11-02T12:21:17Z ryu0: yea, just stating i'll need to consider it if i translate formulas. 2015-11-02T12:21:20Z ryu0: from C. 2015-11-02T12:21:41Z Shinmera: Sure. Usually the better approach is to refer to the mathematical formula directly, if you have that. 2015-11-02T12:21:42Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:22:01Z jackdaniel: ryu0: if you want (/ 5 4) to produce "1" then you may just (truncate *) it 2015-11-02T12:22:22Z ryu0: yea, i figured there would be a function to truncate the part "right of the decimal". 2015-11-02T12:22:54Z Xach: or (truncate 5 4) 2015-11-02T12:23:26Z jackdaniel: there is also round 2015-11-02T12:23:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:23:31Z jackdaniel: for rounding (: 2015-11-02T12:23:44Z ryu0: i assume it also allows specifying decimal places? 2015-11-02T12:24:06Z jackdaniel: decimal places? 2015-11-02T12:24:13Z ryu0: round to tenths, etc? 2015-11-02T12:24:22Z jackdaniel: ah, I don't know to be honest 2015-11-02T12:24:26Z jackdaniel: I think not 2015-11-02T12:24:27Z ryu0: my math books sometimes calls it, round to x decimal places. 2015-11-02T12:24:41Z ryu0: tenths being the first. 2015-11-02T12:24:46Z jackdaniel: yep, it has divisor optional argument 2015-11-02T12:25:18Z jackdaniel: so (round 7 10) should return 1 2015-11-02T12:25:51Z ryu0: because 7 / 10 = 0.7 which rounds to 1? 2015-11-02T12:26:19Z jackdaniel: I suppose (I've just checked this on the repl, I think you should consult spec) 2015-11-02T12:26:21Z jackdaniel: spec round 2015-11-02T12:26:37Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:26:56Z jackdaniel: "Returns the integer nearest to NUMBER/DIVISOR." 2015-11-02T12:27:34Z ryu0: is there a CL implementation that supports readline or similar? 2015-11-02T12:27:38Z samssammerz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:27:39Z ryu0: :/ 2015-11-02T12:27:51Z jackdaniel: there's clisp 2015-11-02T12:27:51Z Shinmera: clisp, if I remember correctly. Otherwise you can use rlwrap 2015-11-02T12:27:59Z jackdaniel: also I'm working on libedit support for ECL now 2015-11-02T12:28:01Z Shinmera: Or get full blown emacs+slime 2015-11-02T12:28:20Z ryu0: SBCL doesn't support command line editting of input. was just curious. it would make less tedious to use. 2015-11-02T12:28:36Z Shinmera: It doesn't get much love because most people use Emacs+Slime 2015-11-02T12:28:45Z ryu0: rlwrap? 2015-11-02T12:28:46Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T12:28:52Z jackdaniel: ryu0: `rlwrap sbcl` should give you basic history 2015-11-02T12:29:01Z jackdaniel: and →↓→↑ 2015-11-02T12:29:06Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-02T12:29:07Z jackdaniel: plus some shell shortcuts 2015-11-02T12:29:37Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-02T12:30:16Z ryu0: this works fine. thanks. 2015-11-02T12:30:26Z ryu0: never heard of this program bere. 2015-11-02T12:30:29Z ryu0: before* 2015-11-02T12:30:59Z jackdaniel: rlwrap is just a wrapper around the readline 2015-11-02T12:31:05Z jackdaniel: standalone wrapper that is 2015-11-02T12:31:47Z ryu0: this is weird. 2015-11-02T12:31:56Z ryu0: (round 3 4) 2015-11-02T12:32:01Z ryu0: prints out 1 and -1? 2015-11-02T12:32:08Z jackdaniel: it's the second value 2015-11-02T12:32:11Z jackdaniel: don't worry about that 2015-11-02T12:32:14Z ryu0: 2nd value? 2015-11-02T12:32:16Z jackdaniel: try (+ (round 3 4) 1) 2015-11-02T12:32:25Z jackdaniel: CL supports multiple values returned by function 2015-11-02T12:32:31Z Shinmera: The second value is the remainder. 2015-11-02T12:32:35Z Shinmera: clhs round 2015-11-02T12:32:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 2015-11-02T12:32:36Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-02T12:32:52Z jackdaniel: sometimes you want to return a few things from function. In C you modify arguments pointers or wrap a thing in a struct 2015-11-02T12:33:18Z ryu0: what kind of remainder is this? 3/4 has a remainder of 3 i thought? 2015-11-02T12:33:19Z jackdaniel: if you don't need the second value you can simply ignore it 2015-11-02T12:33:39Z jackdaniel: second value of round by definition is (- NUMBER (* first-value DIVISOR)) 2015-11-02T12:34:25Z Zhivago: With CL you can pass in a value emitter to similar effect also 2015-11-02T12:34:45Z Zhivago: e.g., (foo (lambda (v) (setf result v))) 2015-11-02T12:34:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:34:48Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:34:51Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:34:55Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:35:14Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-02T12:35:24Z ryu0: i'm baffled why (round 3 4) has a -1 for remainder. 2015-11-02T12:35:31Z Xof: because 3 rounds to 4 2015-11-02T12:36:02Z ryu0: ? this doesn't fit what i know of rounding. 2015-11-02T12:36:03Z Xof: if you want truncation, use truncate, not round 2015-11-02T12:36:11Z jackdaniel: ryu0: second value is a distance of a round 2015-11-02T12:36:16Z jackdaniel: 4-3 is 1 2015-11-02T12:36:28Z jackdaniel: and the direction (3<4, so it's -1) 2015-11-02T12:36:52Z ryu0: the sign indicates... "direction"? 2015-11-02T12:36:55Z jackdaniel: just ignore the second value unless you need it for something 2015-11-02T12:37:00Z jackdaniel: yeah, signum 2015-11-02T12:37:22Z ryu0: is this related to the number line then? 2015-11-02T12:37:45Z jackdaniel: sign indicates if you rounded up or down. second value is: (- NUMBER (* first-value DIVISOR)) 2015-11-02T12:37:55Z Zhivago: Just remember that quotient*divisor+remainder=number 2015-11-02T12:37:58Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T12:38:26Z Zhivago: And then solve for remainder. 2015-11-02T12:38:41Z ryu0: O_o 2015-11-02T12:38:46Z ryu0: okay this is odd. 2015-11-02T12:39:08Z ryu0: this is used a different kind of rounding. i was taught 5 or above is round up. 2015-11-02T12:39:16Z ryu0: (round 1 2) -> 0 1 2015-11-02T12:39:27Z ryu0: 1/2 = 0.5 2015-11-02T12:39:28Z jackdaniel: ryu0: it's to the nearest even number 2015-11-02T12:39:28Z Guest99686 is now known as micro_ 2015-11-02T12:39:29Z axion: the correct way is to round half to even 2015-11-02T12:39:34Z jackdaniel: afair 2015-11-02T12:39:35Z axion: it prevents unbiased rounding 2015-11-02T12:39:36Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-02T12:39:48Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:39:55Z axion: err biased 2015-11-02T12:39:59Z ryu0: that goes in the face of what i was taught about rounding. 2015-11-02T12:40:01Z Zhivago: quotient = 1, remainder = -1, number = 3, divisor = 4; 1 * 4 - 1 = 3. 2015-11-02T12:41:02Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:41:20Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:41:58Z ryu0: axion: therefore it half rounds up or down depending on which is even? 2015-11-02T12:42:04Z ryu0: s/it/ 2015-11-02T12:42:07Z ryu0: s/it// 2015-11-02T12:42:25Z axion: 1.5 => 2, 2.5 => 2 2015-11-02T12:42:35Z ryu0: okay. 2015-11-02T12:43:07Z axion: if you're rounding .5 to up, you're favoring larger numbers 2015-11-02T12:43:11Z ryu0: let me guess. this is another means of rounding than what i learned? 2015-11-02T12:43:23Z ryu0: or? 2015-11-02T12:43:24Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:43:42Z axion: some were taught .5 up in school, a lot were not though 2015-11-02T12:43:46Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding#Round_half_to_even 2015-11-02T12:44:49Z ryu0: oh, so that's why. every math book i've ever worked with rounded half up. 2015-11-02T12:45:01Z ryu0: i didn't know there were others. 2015-11-02T12:45:17Z ryu0: even my college level books wanted rounding done this way. 2015-11-02T12:45:26Z axion: a lot of languages do it this way, including python 2015-11-02T12:45:28Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:45:34Z ryu0: round half to even? 2015-11-02T12:45:45Z axion: yes 2015-11-02T12:45:51Z axion: anyway, off to work. good luck 2015-11-02T12:45:52Z ryu0: how strange. 2015-11-02T12:46:04Z ryu0: thanks, i never noticed this before... 2015-11-02T12:46:26Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-02T12:46:49Z Shinmera: What a world. 2015-11-02T12:46:56Z ryu0: very interesting. always thought there was only one way to round halfway. 2015-11-02T12:47:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T12:47:59Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:48:02Z ryu0: now i see one way programming differs from taught math. x_x 2015-11-02T12:48:07Z ryu0: haha. 2015-11-02T12:49:23Z Shinmera: Well, programming differs from math mostly in the sense that it's also engineering for a large part. Theory is nice, but practice usually complicates things a lot. 2015-11-02T12:49:24Z jackdaniel: I'd say - school math. It's often much closer to the taught math then the one people use everyday 2015-11-02T12:49:30Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:50:25Z rootwang joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:50:33Z aeth: Well, "always round up" is easier to do on paper. A lot of techniques in school are just easier to do on paper. 2015-11-02T12:50:35Z Petit_Dejeuner` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T12:51:07Z aeth: Not that much easier, but I guess even slightly easier wins out. 2015-11-02T12:53:20Z cosarara joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:56:56Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-02T12:59:31Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:02:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:04:36Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:04:38Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:06:27Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:07:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:09:15Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:09:39Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:11:49Z ryu0: Zhivago: why is the quotient of 3/4 in this case 1? because 3/4 rounds to 1? 2015-11-02T13:12:10Z ryu0: Zhivago: under what i understand of division, 0 would be the quotient and the remainder would be 3. 2015-11-02T13:12:25Z ryu0: 0 * 4 + 3 = 3 2015-11-02T13:13:06Z ryu0: Zhivago: so why is your example different? 2015-11-02T13:13:44Z jackdaniel: ryu0: you round 3/4, so it's obviously rounding to 1 2015-11-02T13:13:49Z jackdaniel: rest just follows 2015-11-02T13:13:58Z ryu0: jackdaniel: so it adjusts the remainder to fit? 2015-11-02T13:14:12Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T13:14:35Z ryu0: i'm still baffled. 2015-11-02T13:15:25Z ryu0: jackdaniel: is there some math explaination for this? this doesn't fit what i understand of remainder. 2015-11-02T13:15:25Z jackdaniel: I think that the book "ANSI Common Lisp" would fit best your way of thinking 2015-11-02T13:16:37Z ryu0: i'll ask in the math channel i guess. 2015-11-02T13:16:48Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T13:16:50Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 2015-11-02T13:17:14Z jackdaniel: here you have the CL specification description of the function - what it does 2015-11-02T13:17:54Z jackdaniel: reminder indicates how much and in what direction you have rounded 2015-11-02T13:19:30Z ryu0: O_o 2015-11-02T13:19:32Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-02T13:19:54Z ryu0: jackdaniel: so in (round 7 13), -6 means... 2015-11-02T13:20:17Z ryu0: the '-' means it rounds towards the 13? 2015-11-02T13:20:32Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-11-02T13:20:39Z ryu0: or, rounds up? 2015-11-02T13:21:01Z ryu0: hm. let's try the reverse. 2015-11-02T13:21:18Z ryu0: -1... 2015-11-02T13:21:27Z ryu0: okay, so it's not distance. 2015-11-02T13:21:54Z Zhivago: ryu: Yes, 3/4 rounds to one. 2015-11-02T13:22:00Z jackdaniel: -6 here means, that 7 lacks 6 to 13 2015-11-02T13:22:11Z ryu0: but - appears to mean it had to round up to the larger integer. 2015-11-02T13:22:28Z jackdaniel: if you'd (round 19 13) you'd have 1 and 6 2015-11-02T13:22:56Z Zhivago: 7/13 rounds to 1. 7/13 - 13/13 = -6/13. 2015-11-02T13:23:06Z ryu0: ah, i'm seeing it now. 2015-11-02T13:23:09Z jackdaniel: \o/ 2015-11-02T13:23:41Z ryu0: it rounds it up or down, then computes the remainder as if the rounded value was the quotient? 2015-11-02T13:23:49Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T13:23:56Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:24:03Z jackdaniel: if you want to truncate then use the function truncate 2015-11-02T13:24:29Z ryu0: 13/7 -> rounds to 2. 2015-11-02T13:24:35Z ryu0: 2 becomes the quotient. 2015-11-02T13:24:50Z ryu0: 2 * 7... hm 2015-11-02T13:25:20Z ryu0: moment. 2015-11-02T13:25:24Z Zhivago: (round (+ 7 6) 13) is 1, is another way to think of it. 2015-11-02T13:25:56Z jackdaniel: the second value is always: (- rounded-number (* rounding-result divisor)) 2015-11-02T13:26:11Z Zhivago: It's just the equation I pasted a few hours ago. 2015-11-02T13:26:15Z jackdaniel: bah, s/rounded-number/number-before-rounding/ 2015-11-02T13:26:25Z jackdaniel: oh, sorry then 2015-11-02T13:26:34Z ryu0: well, this seems a tad clearer... 2015-11-02T13:26:39Z ryu0: let's see. 2015-11-02T13:27:26Z ryu0: yea, that's it... or... 2015-11-02T13:27:46Z ryu0: yea... the division remainder formula. 2015-11-02T13:28:02Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:28:02Z ryu0: just using different variables. 2015-11-02T13:28:38Z ryu0: jackdaniel: is that book you mentioned the one at gigamonkeys? 2015-11-02T13:28:48Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T13:29:01Z ryu0: oh, mnvm. 2015-11-02T13:29:11Z ryu0: http://www.paulgraham.com/acl.html? 2015-11-02T13:29:15Z jackdaniel: ryu0: no, its written by Paul Graham (it's not on the internet) 2015-11-02T13:29:23Z jackdaniel: yes, that's the one 2015-11-02T13:30:38Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T13:31:10Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:32:06Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:34:02Z ryu0: jackdaniel: if you pass it instead as a single value, you get this formula? (- original-value (/ (* denominator rounded-value) denominator)) 2015-11-02T13:34:05Z ryu0: ? 2015-11-02T13:34:13Z ryu0: (round 13/7) 2015-11-02T13:34:15Z ryu0: for example. 2015-11-02T13:34:34Z ryu0: it gives 2 and -1/7 2015-11-02T13:34:59Z ryu0: which appears to be the difference of 2015-11-02T13:35:01Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the question. If you want to access both values you may want to use (multiple-value-bind (quotient reminder) (round 13/7) …) 2015-11-02T13:35:03Z ryu0: 13/7 and 14/7 2015-11-02T13:35:16Z ryu0: no, i meant in how the value of the remainder changes. 2015-11-02T13:35:23Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:35:25Z ryu0: from (round 13 7) to (round 13/7) 2015-11-02T13:35:43Z ryu0: the quotient remains the same. 2015-11-02T13:35:47Z jackdaniel: (round 13/7) rounds 13/7 to the integer 2015-11-02T13:36:06Z ryu0: doesn't the first form do that anyway? 2015-11-02T13:36:10Z jackdaniel: if you do (round 13 7) the divisor is 7, while when you do (round 13 7) the divisor is 1 2015-11-02T13:36:32Z jackdaniel: 13/7 is *one* argument, you put divisor as a second one 2015-11-02T13:36:40Z ryu0: oh 2015-11-02T13:37:12Z ryu0: so divisor is considered 1 when not specified? 2015-11-02T13:37:25Z jackdaniel: yes, it's it's default value 2015-11-02T13:38:08Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T13:38:35Z ryu0 facepalms. 2015-11-02T13:38:41Z ryu0: it was simpler than my formula. 2015-11-02T13:38:43Z ryu0: XD 2015-11-02T13:39:07Z ryu0: the 14/7 comes from CL converting 2 to a compatible ratio for subtraction. 2015-11-02T13:39:11Z ryu0: ugh. 2015-11-02T13:39:13Z ryu0: lol 2015-11-02T13:42:20Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:43:27Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:45:25Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:48:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:48:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T13:48:34Z ryu0: so, uh, may i ask when this remainder value is useful? 2015-11-02T13:49:29Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T13:49:53Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T13:49:56Z ryu0: jackdaniel: what is special about graham's book? 2015-11-02T13:49:58Z jackdaniel: ryu0: when you need it ^_^ hm, it might be useful if you want to sum how much you have rounded during the computation 2015-11-02T13:50:05Z jackdaniel: to detect data bias for instance 2015-11-02T13:50:10Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:50:13Z ryu0: oh, interesting. 2015-11-02T13:50:31Z ryu0: you see, i've rarely worked with non-integers directly in programming, so... 2015-11-02T13:50:43Z jackdaniel: nothing, it's just a good book about CL - it takes somewhat more analitic approach to the standard then PCL 2015-11-02T13:50:48Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-02T13:51:03Z jackdaniel: and has nice exercises 2015-11-02T13:51:16Z ryu0: that's probably why i wasn't aware of round half to even... 2015-11-02T13:51:38Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T13:51:43Z ryu0: didn't use floating point in C for much. 2015-11-02T13:51:49Z ryu0 shrugs. 2015-11-02T13:51:54Z ryu0: I assume it works the same there. 2015-11-02T13:52:04Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:52:35Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T13:52:42Z ryu0: ugh. yes, i think i definitely need to take calculus at some point. 2015-11-02T13:52:50Z ryu0: it would probably clear up a lot. 2015-11-02T13:54:45Z ryu0: jackdaniel: i'll keep it in mind. i think it was one of the books recommended by my gentle intro book. 2015-11-02T13:55:04Z ryu0: jackdaniel: for advanced reading. 2015-11-02T13:55:30Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:55:49Z ryu0: CL has blown my mind in a few cases. behavior i wasn't expecting and such. i guess that's what i get working from the low level for so long. :P 2015-11-02T13:57:14Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:57:23Z ryu0: multiple return values. huh. 2015-11-02T13:58:23Z ryu0: how is that implemented? tuples or something? 2015-11-02T13:58:37Z jackdaniel: depends on the implementation 2015-11-02T13:58:43Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-02T13:58:59Z jackdaniel: ECL has a special table in the environment which holds the values (if there is more then one) 2015-11-02T13:59:04Z jackdaniel: don't know about the others 2015-11-02T13:59:25Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T13:59:30Z ryu0: i remember reading that CL has the ability to save an image? what's that? is it like saving your program state to resume it later? 2015-11-02T14:00:39Z jackdaniel: dumping the image is an extension 2015-11-02T14:00:42Z jackdaniel: not part of the standard 2015-11-02T14:00:46Z jackdaniel: CCL and SBCL has that 2015-11-02T14:00:51Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-02T14:00:53Z jackdaniel: (probably more) 2015-11-02T14:01:02Z jackdaniel: CLISP has that too 2015-11-02T14:01:09Z ryu0: but it's a fairly common feature? 2015-11-02T14:01:23Z ryu0: err extension. 2015-11-02T14:01:27Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-11-02T14:01:40Z jackdaniel: yeah. But don't put it as part of your code, just use for conveniance 2015-11-02T14:01:46Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:02:06Z Shinmera: Use it as part of your code if you're fine with having features that only work on some implementations. 2015-11-02T14:02:09Z ryu0: hm. alright. i was thinking it could be used to restore program state between reboots or such. 2015-11-02T14:02:21Z ryu0: assuming i understand what it does. 2015-11-02T14:02:41Z Shinmera: You can use it for that to a very limited extent. 2015-11-02T14:02:58Z ryu0: oh, some stuff isn't preserved? 2015-11-02T14:03:00Z Shinmera: As in, you can only have one thread running and no open file descriptors. 2015-11-02T14:03:20Z ryu0: yeouch. not even the standard ones? 2015-11-02T14:03:28Z Shinmera: Standard what? 2015-11-02T14:03:36Z ryu0: the ones defined in ANSI C. 2015-11-02T14:03:43Z Shinmera: What ones? 2015-11-02T14:03:46Z ryu0: stdin, stdout, stderr. 2015-11-02T14:03:57Z ryu0: or, 0, 1, 2 in unix. 2015-11-02T14:04:02Z Shinmera: Well you're gonna get new stdin stdout and stderr. 2015-11-02T14:04:11Z ryu0: true. 2015-11-02T14:04:19Z ryu0: won't be the same... 2015-11-02T14:04:19Z Shinmera: But usually you get those as streams, so the implementation can wrap them. 2015-11-02T14:04:29Z Shinmera: If you have direct access then no, it won't get restored, obviously. 2015-11-02T14:04:34Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:04:35Z ryu0: sounds like too much hassle. 2015-11-02T14:04:51Z Shinmera: Mostly you also just can't do it. How would you restore an open connection to a server? 2015-11-02T14:05:00Z ryu0: you wouldn't. 2015-11-02T14:05:13Z ryu0: it'd have to be reopened later... 2015-11-02T14:05:21Z Shinmera: Exactly. So the best way it so error so the user has to figure out the logic behind closing and reopening on image save/restore. 2015-11-02T14:05:27Z ryu0: it just sounded like an interesting feature for saving a MUD's game state. 2015-11-02T14:05:40Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:05:43Z Shinmera: For something as simple as that you can do it just fine. 2015-11-02T14:05:51Z jackdaniel: ryu0: if you keep state of a game in some structure you can simply serialize it (portably) 2015-11-02T14:06:00Z ryu0: true. 2015-11-02T14:06:07Z Shinmera: But yeah, usually serialising is the preferred option 2015-11-02T14:06:10Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:06:10Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:06:13Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:06:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:06:23Z Shinmera: If you know the content can be trusted, a simple WRITE will do. 2015-11-02T14:06:44Z ryu0: i've wanted to design a new mud codebase, but not using existing ones. they're pretty much all C, and bleh. 2015-11-02T14:06:54Z Shinmera: (provided you have either no CLOS classes or proper methods to serialise them readably) 2015-11-02T14:06:57Z ryu0: i don't want to go hunting down memory errors and crap no one cared to fix. 2015-11-02T14:07:00Z jackdaniel: ryu0: my personal opinion goes like that: use it (image save/restore) for your workflow when convenient, don't make it part of your code for sake of portability (but I'm biased here obv) 2015-11-02T14:07:03Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T14:07:06Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:07:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:07:20Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: It makes sense to make it part of the code if you need to wrap deployment for example 2015-11-02T14:07:46Z Shinmera scurries off home, bbl 2015-11-02T14:08:02Z ryu0: jackdaniel: i assume OS APIs are available in some form in CL? 2015-11-02T14:08:08Z ryu0: POSIX, win32, etc. 2015-11-02T14:08:09Z jackdaniel: I'm more into initialize hooks or something 2015-11-02T14:08:32Z jackdaniel: ryu0: yeah, mostly posix 2015-11-02T14:08:35Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:08:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:08:43Z ryu0: that's fine. i don't care about win32 much. 2015-11-02T14:08:54Z jackdaniel: there are also portability libraries to keep that consistant between implementations 2015-11-02T14:09:11Z ryu0: mostly for a mud i would need basic sockets and file IO... 2015-11-02T14:09:35Z ryu0: i could just implement telnet myself. 2015-11-02T14:09:37Z jackdaniel: for sockets you have: usocket and iolib, while for posix you have osicat and iolib 2015-11-02T14:09:49Z ryu0: assuming CL doesn't already have it. 2015-11-02T14:10:07Z ryu0: it implemented somewhere. heh 2015-11-02T14:10:08Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:10:12Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-02T14:10:14Z jackdaniel: note that iolib requires libfixposix as a library in the system (you'll have to compile it by yourself), but is feature complete imo 2015-11-02T14:10:23Z ryu0: jackdaniel: you've been very helpful. thanks. 2015-11-02T14:10:30Z jackdaniel: you're welcome 2015-11-02T14:11:21Z ryu0: i've wanted to learn CL for some time. appears to have a lot of attributes i like about C. mainly, maturity and API stability. 2015-11-02T14:11:34Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T14:11:51Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:12:13Z Davidbrcz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T14:12:40Z jackdaniel: ryu0: you may (more or less) freely combine C and CL with the ECL 2015-11-02T14:12:56Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:13:04Z ryu0: i'll consider it, but i wish to see what i can do with plain CL. 2015-11-02T14:13:10Z ryu0: i consider C a last resort. 2015-11-02T14:13:38Z rootwang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:13:39Z ryu0: used only if i can't do it with CL for some reason. 2015-11-02T14:13:54Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T14:14:09Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:14:11Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:14:22Z jackdaniel: you'll want to use CFFI for using system libraries 2015-11-02T14:14:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T14:14:45Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:15:00Z ryu0: sounds familiar. doesn't that require manual translation of library headers? 2015-11-02T14:15:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:15:33Z jackdaniel: more or less, yes. It's often easier though then reinventing the whole library 2015-11-02T14:15:44Z jackdaniel: also you may automate it 2015-11-02T14:15:57Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap 2015-11-02T14:16:12Z ryu0: hope it's better than the tools i tried in the past. LOL 2015-11-02T14:16:36Z jackdaniel: good luck - I'm out for lunch 2015-11-02T14:16:42Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-02T14:16:43Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:17:02Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T14:17:36Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:18:30Z Davidbrcz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:20:35Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:20:41Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T14:20:58Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T14:21:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:22:07Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:26:01Z rootwang joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:26:16Z Shinmera: ryu0: If you're writing an application, it's usually a good idea to confine yourself to one implementation so you don't have to worry about cross-implementation portability all the time. 2015-11-02T14:26:41Z Shinmera: However, if you do write a library, then you should make it as portable as can be. 2015-11-02T14:31:58Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:31:58Z ryu0: question about how NIL is treated. according to my book, CONSP and LISTP treat NIL differently. it's not a cons cell but it is a list (empty list). why the difference? lists contain a chain of cons cells, don't they? 2015-11-02T14:32:12Z ryu0: i can only think of one reason for this. NIL won't have any cons cells. 2015-11-02T14:32:27Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:34:01Z oGMo: ryu0: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list 2015-11-02T14:34:39Z oGMo: also, look up NIL, because nil is literally the symbol CL:NIL 2015-11-02T14:35:34Z ryu0: "terminating atom"... 2015-11-02T14:35:40Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-02T14:36:17Z ryu0: it says that rather than nil, because it also has to include dotted lists? 2015-11-02T14:36:21Z oGMo: ryu0: look more at 2 :P 2015-11-02T14:36:40Z ryu0: union of null and cons? 2015-11-02T14:36:45Z oGMo: yes 2015-11-02T14:36:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:36:59Z Davidbrcz_ quit (Quit: ++) 2015-11-02T14:37:05Z oGMo: listp, "Returns true if object is of type list; otherwise, returns false." 2015-11-02T14:37:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:37:30Z ryu0: what does union mean in this context? set union? 2015-11-02T14:37:46Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T14:38:07Z ryu0: combining? 2015-11-02T14:38:59Z ryu0: union of nil and cons... cons cell. 2015-11-02T14:40:09Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-02T14:42:43Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:42:44Z ryu0: oGMo: what does this mean exactly? how does it combine nil and cons? 2015-11-02T14:43:14Z eudoxia: union as in, either nil or cons 2015-11-02T14:43:20Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-02T14:43:31Z ryu0: a boolean OR? 2015-11-02T14:43:45Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-02T14:43:49Z eudoxia: aye 2015-11-02T14:43:56Z ryu0: oh, type union... 2015-11-02T14:44:00Z ryu0 facepalms. 2015-11-02T14:44:07Z ryu0: it's one of THESE types... 2015-11-02T14:44:11Z ryu0: a set of types... 2015-11-02T14:44:14Z ryu0 facepalms. 2015-11-02T14:44:17Z ryu0: lol 2015-11-02T14:44:48Z ryu0: so, list is either a cons cell or nil. 2015-11-02T14:45:40Z eudoxia: yes 2015-11-02T14:46:24Z ryu0: the way my book describes cons cells, they contain two pointers, car and cdr, and the way they work... isn't it just a singly linked list by another name? 2015-11-02T14:46:53Z eudoxia: yes 2015-11-02T14:47:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:47:26Z ryu0: alright, thanks. i thought as much. 2015-11-02T14:48:05Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T14:48:46Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T14:49:24Z Zhivago: Not exactly. 2015-11-02T14:49:40Z Zhivago: They're a unit from which you can construct linked lists, along with other structures. 2015-11-02T14:50:20Z Zhivago: a-lists, p-lists, binary trees, etc. 2015-11-02T14:51:37Z Zhivago: Tagged boxes, pairs :) 2015-11-02T14:52:43Z rootwang quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T14:56:28Z davidfurman joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:57:32Z davidfurman quit (Changing host) 2015-11-02T14:57:32Z davidfurman joined #lisp 2015-11-02T14:57:39Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:00:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:02:16Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:04:09Z john-mcaleely quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:04:14Z rtra` joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:04:32Z rtra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T15:04:32Z rtra` is now known as rtra 2015-11-02T15:07:12Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-11-02T15:08:58Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:09:27Z arnsholt: What, Zhivago said, basically. They're A cons is just a pair of pointers, no more, no less. If you put a data member in the car and the rest in the cdr, it's a singly linked list. If you do something else, it can be one of many things, as Zhivago says 2015-11-02T15:09:31Z warweasle: Is there a function that appends without creating a new list. Something like (rplacd (butlast lst) lst2)? 2015-11-02T15:09:52Z arnsholt: The crucial thing is that there's no law that says that the car is the data thing and the cdr is the rest. Either can be anything 2015-11-02T15:09:57Z Xach: warweasle: nconc springs to mind 2015-11-02T15:11:22Z warweasle: Xach: Oh. Let me try. 2015-11-02T15:12:30Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:13:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T15:14:54Z warweasle: Xach: Woot 2015-11-02T15:15:04Z warweasle: Xach: I mean works. 2015-11-02T15:16:44Z Xach: fantastico 2015-11-02T15:16:51Z loke_: re 2015-11-02T15:17:23Z davidfurman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T15:18:13Z marvi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:19:05Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T15:19:50Z lnostdal__ is now known as lnostdal 2015-11-02T15:20:00Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:21:04Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-02T15:21:21Z warweasle: Xach: Yu @r3 l33t hax0r. 2015-11-02T15:23:43Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:24:13Z Xach just released a new lisp-powered amusement website, pixelspeechbubble.com 2015-11-02T15:24:17Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-02T15:24:32Z Xach: it is actually a clone of the first such amusement i made 10 years ago, but i still liked updating/remaking it 2015-11-02T15:26:18Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:26:58Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:27:58Z splittist_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:29:07Z warweasle quit (Quit: Reboot!) 2015-11-02T15:30:08Z larsen__ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:30:13Z ramus_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:30:16Z jackdani1l joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:30:27Z Faed joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:33:58Z Xach: hmm, does clozure cl have a way to specify some code to run when a saved application is restarted, even when the toplevel function hasn't been replaced? 2015-11-02T15:34:50Z Xach: sbcl does that via a variable called *INIT-HOOKS* 2015-11-02T15:35:20Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:20Z radioninja quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:20Z jasom quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:20Z gaya- quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z rtoym quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z d4gg4d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z mathrick quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z torpig quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z trig-ger quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z wyan quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z Colleen quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z H4ns quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:35:21Z Oddity quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z jeaye quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z moredhel quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z salva quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z Neet quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z Fade quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z mission712 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z larsen quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z constantinexvi quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z Zotan quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z XachX quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z splittist quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z victor_lowther quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2015-11-02T15:36:06Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:36:08Z splittist_ is now known as splittist 2015-11-02T15:36:48Z Shinmera: UIOP wraps around that with *IMAGE-RESTORE-HOOK* 2015-11-02T15:37:02Z Shinmera: Or rather, it reimplements the functionality on its own. 2015-11-02T15:37:19Z decent quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-02T15:37:27Z Shinmera: That is, uiop:*image-restore-hook*. 2015-11-02T15:37:48Z torpig joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:38:25Z Xach: yes, it looks like it replaces the toplevel function with one that calls the uiop hook system first 2015-11-02T15:38:48Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T15:41:21Z Shinmera: Maybe you can do something with the application-class argument to save-application? 2015-11-02T15:41:24Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:41:26Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:41:42Z salva joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:41:48Z Shinmera: The documentation for save-application isn't very helpful for that particular argument unfortunately. 2015-11-02T15:42:25Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:42:39Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:42:51Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:42:58Z mission712 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:43:01Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T15:43:26Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:43:28Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:43:36Z ryu0: huh. thought so. 2015-11-02T15:43:49Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:44:10Z ryu0: atom is non-cons cell... so nil is an atom. heh. 2015-11-02T15:45:39Z Shinmera: ryu0: Also see http://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png 2015-11-02T15:46:00Z Xach: Shinmera: that seems promising 2015-11-02T15:46:16Z Shinmera: Note that this is about types. NIL itself has the type NULL, while NIL denotes a type that includes nothing. 2015-11-02T15:46:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Let me know if you can work it out! 2015-11-02T15:46:31Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:47:02Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:47:25Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:48:18Z wyan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:48:20Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-02T15:49:26Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:49:30Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:49:40Z ryu0: can atoms therefore be thought of as things that are not part of a type of list? i know it's more specific than than this but... 2015-11-02T15:49:40Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:49:53Z Xach: rme just told me about ccl:*lisp-startup-functions* 2015-11-02T15:50:00Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:50:11Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:50:19Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:50:30Z Shinmera: ryu0: as http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_atom.htm says, ATOM is equivalent to (NOT CONS). 2015-11-02T15:50:41Z ryu0: yea, i see that. 2015-11-02T15:50:45Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:50:46Z ryu0: but i mean in actual use. 2015-11-02T15:50:57Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:51:04Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T15:51:12Z Shinmera: Conses don't necessarily denote lists. 2015-11-02T15:51:28Z ryu0: yea, i know, but that's one use of them. 2015-11-02T15:51:54Z ryu0: ah, so this list is why null (nil) is not an atom? 2015-11-02T15:52:07Z ryu0: err 2015-11-02T15:52:09Z ryu0: is an atom 2015-11-02T15:52:12Z ryu0: sorry. 2015-11-02T15:52:34Z ryu0: if i'm reading this right, then, list and sequence should both be considered cons and therefore not be atoms. 2015-11-02T15:52:57Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:53:24Z Shinmera: A list is (or cons null). If it's null then it is an atom. If it's cons then it's not. 2015-11-02T15:53:55Z ryu0: Shinmera: what purpose does this concept of 'atom' serve? 2015-11-02T15:54:08Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T15:54:14Z ryu0: it was defined in my book without much of a context for why it exists. 2015-11-02T15:54:34Z oGMo: ... 2015-11-02T15:54:58Z oGMo: _you_ lack context; it does not 2015-11-02T15:55:03Z oGMo: is this your first time programming? 2015-11-02T15:55:13Z ryu0: oGMo: no, but new to high level... 2015-11-02T15:55:22Z arnsholt: It was probably more relevant in older Lisps, when pretty much any complex data structure had to be constructed out of conses 2015-11-02T15:55:41Z oGMo: ryu0: i would recommend learning more of the whole and focusing less on the reasoning behind each individual thing out of context 2015-11-02T15:55:46Z arnsholt: My local Lisp tells me that an array is an atom for example, which can probably be a bit counter-intuitive 2015-11-02T15:55:58Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:56:48Z oGMo: ryu0: also, _write_ some real code, because there are a lot of decisions in CL that don't make sense until you use it, then you're like "oooh" 2015-11-02T15:56:52Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:57:00Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T15:57:29Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-11-02T15:57:29Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-02T15:57:45Z ryu0: oGMo: sorry, i'm just wanting to understand the rationale of everything i come across. i want to learn CL pretty thoroughly, if at all possible. 2015-11-02T15:58:02Z ryu0: i come from C, so not everything makes sense to me i guess. 2015-11-02T15:58:17Z Zhivago: ruy: atom and form are terms from s-exp syntax. 2015-11-02T15:58:23Z oGMo: ryu0: well what i'm saying is the rationale only becomes obvious as you know more and write more 2015-11-02T15:58:29Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-02T15:58:39Z Zhivago: ryu: So they're useful when processing lisp source code -- they should probably not be used in other places. 2015-11-02T15:58:58Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T15:59:47Z oGMo: e.g., a big one (not just CL-specific) coming from C might be "why is 0 not false?!" .. except once you start using it you find testing for multiple false values is very annoying and error-prone 2015-11-02T16:00:36Z ryu0: oh, you mean how C treates anything that evaluates to 0 as false? 2015-11-02T16:00:38Z oGMo: and very often you want to know if some value is non-NIL, even if it's 0, etc 2015-11-02T16:00:46Z oGMo: right 2015-11-02T16:00:56Z Zhivago: Well, C defines false as 0. Much like CL defines false as NIL. 2015-11-02T16:01:01Z oGMo: right 2015-11-02T16:01:31Z ryu0: i see it plainly, 0 is only a number in CL. CL has dedicated symbols and types for boolean it appears. 2015-11-02T16:01:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:01:42Z ryu0: is that about right? 2015-11-02T16:01:45Z oGMo: not really 2015-11-02T16:01:49Z ryu0: or? 2015-11-02T16:02:04Z Zhivago: Well, it overloads the symbol NIL as the boolean false. 2015-11-02T16:02:14Z oGMo: everything is a generalized-boolean "true"; only NIL is false 2015-11-02T16:02:26Z Zhivago: Scheme has separate () and false, on the other hand. 2015-11-02T16:03:12Z Zhivago: The idea is that NIL is the empty list which is the empty set, which is a reasonable thing to describe a lack of success. 2015-11-02T16:03:45Z ryu0: is it also used to describe no return value? 2015-11-02T16:03:49Z Zhivago: I'm not convinced that it was a good decision (Scheme probably got it right), but it's only occasionally problematic. 2015-11-02T16:04:18Z Zhivago: Technically (values) describes no return value, but that's implicitly nil for things that expect a value from such a return. 2015-11-02T16:04:19Z oGMo: ryu0: no, though if you look at the value of no values you get nil 2015-11-02T16:04:24Z oGMo: that 2015-11-02T16:04:55Z dwchandler: it's problematic in certain situations, which are well known 2015-11-02T16:05:18Z Shinmera: I for one really enjoy generalised booleans. 2015-11-02T16:05:39Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T16:05:48Z oGMo: i think the only time i've found false/nil mattering is when the language has other annoying semantics for NIL 2015-11-02T16:05:51Z oGMo: e.g., lua 2015-11-02T16:06:16Z oGMo: but lots of false values is painful to deal with, e.g. python 2015-11-02T16:06:52Z paddymahoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T16:07:15Z Zhivago: Javascript does a good job with false, undefined and null being separate -- but implicit conversion causes confusion. 2015-11-02T16:07:21Z ryu0: when you say generalized-boolean, what is that exactly? is it how anything non-NIL is treated as if it were true if used in a boolean expression? 2015-11-02T16:07:29Z Zhivago: ryu: Yes. 2015-11-02T16:07:31Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/generalized boolean 2015-11-02T16:07:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_g.htm#generalized_boolean 2015-11-02T16:07:43Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:07:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:08:23Z ryu0: jeez. how many terms does this language have? XD 2015-11-02T16:08:38Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-02T16:08:45Z dwchandler: putting status in-band is the real issue. there's no 100% solution with in-band status. it's just about picking which flavor of fail you like better ;-) 2015-11-02T16:08:53Z Shinmera: It's a lengthy spec that explains almost everything you might want to know rather precisely. You'll come to appreciate it. 2015-11-02T16:09:30Z dwchandler: rather, which flavor of fail you hate least 2015-11-02T16:09:42Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T16:10:23Z ryu0: Shinmera: would additional books on CL be advised after i finish gentle introduction? 2015-11-02T16:10:48Z Shinmera: PCL is the usual recommendation 2015-11-02T16:10:59Z Shinmera: Then there's also PAIP and On Lisp. 2015-11-02T16:11:30Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:11:33Z Shinmera: There's several other books as well, but those are usually of.. uh, controversial status. 2015-11-02T16:11:45Z Shinmera: On Lisp bordering on that too. 2015-11-02T16:11:57Z dwchandler: PCL would be a great next book 2015-11-02T16:12:59Z ryu0: i'm already feeling like this is going to be challenging. CL doesn't seem anything like C, other than some concepts that are similar... 2015-11-02T16:13:28Z Shinmera: It's still a mostly sequential language. 2015-11-02T16:13:38Z oGMo: it's not _that_ different from other things, but it won't seem similar for awhile 2015-11-02T16:13:40Z antoszka: It's not supposed to be anything like C. 2015-11-02T16:14:06Z ryu0: yea, i can see that. its foundation predates C. 2015-11-02T16:14:31Z oGMo: your best bet is to forget C and learn CL, rather than trying to learn "CL as if it were C, and how it relates to C-like-things, and why things are different than C" 2015-11-02T16:15:32Z Zhivago: You can think of C as being all about arrays, rather than lists. 2015-11-02T16:15:41Z ryu0: oGMo: when you say forget, you mean put C in its own box and keep CL in its own as well? 2015-11-02T16:15:49Z oGMo: C is just about a sea of numbers 2015-11-02T16:16:14Z oGMo: ryu0: i mean try to lose your C mindset, which is especially difficult if it's your only language ;/ 2015-11-02T16:16:22Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:16:40Z ryu0: it is, largely. it's the only language I bothered to learn the details of. 2015-11-02T16:17:02Z ryu0: to date. 2015-11-02T16:17:13Z Zhivago predicts widespread confusion regarding C here. :) 2015-11-02T16:17:17Z ryu0: 8 years of C. 2015-11-02T16:17:20Z ryu0 winces. 2015-11-02T16:17:48Z oGMo: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf <- that may be a place to start and pretend you're new to programming in general 2015-11-02T16:18:06Z Shinmera: He's already reading Gentle. 2015-11-02T16:18:10Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:18:22Z ryu0: the dover edition 2015-11-02T16:18:29Z oGMo: doh! 2015-11-02T16:18:42Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:20:06Z oGMo: another good thing to understand a lot of rationale would be reading "lisp in small pieces" and writing your own little lisp, except that presupposes knowing lisp ;/ 2015-11-02T16:20:40Z ryu0: oGMo: I figured out some degree of Lisp syntax before, but this is my first time actually bothering to learn the details about it. 2015-11-02T16:20:51Z ryu0: maybe that is why my questions seem so stupid :/ 2015-11-02T16:21:07Z oGMo: ryu0: ah. well, just write some code, and read other code. M-. is your friend. 2015-11-02T16:21:21Z Shinmera: He's not using Slime. 2015-11-02T16:21:33Z ryu0: i've grown attached to vim. 2015-11-02T16:21:35Z oGMo: D: 2015-11-02T16:22:03Z ryu0: it's worked well for most languages i've worked with... 2015-11-02T16:22:34Z dwchandler: ryu0: I use vim. You'll miss some slime goodness, but there's no reason you can't use vim. 2015-11-02T16:22:49Z ryu0: ugh. i've mainly worked with C and shell pipelines... 2015-11-02T16:22:52Z ryu0: some awk 2015-11-02T16:23:06Z ryu0: and such for programming experience. 2015-11-02T16:23:14Z oGMo: well figure out how you can jump to definitions, reading how other functions work is very helpful 2015-11-02T16:23:15Z ryu0: mostly standard unix things. 2015-11-02T16:23:23Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:24:11Z ryu0: i just figured, if i have to learn a higher level language anyway, may as well be something worthwhile. so i thought of CL. 2015-11-02T16:24:39Z dwchandler: ryu0: so you'll see things in lisp that are approached differently. Different idioms. When you're somewhat comfortable with the basics then exploring *why* those idioms are different from, say, C, is worthwhile. 2015-11-02T16:25:22Z oGMo: it's very worthwhile and practical, it's a nice quick way to whip out helpful code when you need it 2015-11-02T16:26:08Z ryu0: i played around trying to find something, but every language i tried that claimed "easy to learn" felt like overly verbose or clunky to use... 2015-11-02T16:26:31Z ryu0: TCL for example feels rather verbose for even the most basic things. 2015-11-02T16:26:42Z ryu0: string matching require rather long commands for example... 2015-11-02T16:26:44Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T16:26:55Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T16:27:01Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:27:16Z ryu0: hmph. 2015-11-02T16:27:33Z oGMo: CL is verbose, probably more than most, but at the same time that's not usually a problem 2015-11-02T16:27:58Z oGMo: and even when it is, you can alter the language where you need terseness ;) 2015-11-02T16:28:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T16:28:08Z ryu0: gentle has covered CAAR and such functions... 2015-11-02T16:28:15Z drmeister: Xach: Are you online? 2015-11-02T16:28:46Z ryu0: i noticed that, in the context of lists, CAR descends into an element, and CDR moves to the next element. 2015-11-02T16:29:24Z XachX: drmeister: at lunch 2015-11-02T16:29:31Z ryu0: so, CAAR hm. 2015-11-02T16:29:35Z ryu0: err 2015-11-02T16:29:37Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-02T16:29:41Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:29:46Z mordocai quit (Quit: switching machines) 2015-11-02T16:29:46Z ryu0: i guess i should stop questioning and just read? 2015-11-02T16:30:30Z Shinmera: Read Gentle and PCL, write the PCL practicals, write your own lib or code, and then start pondering about the deeper details if that's what you're curious about. 2015-11-02T16:30:31Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:30:35Z Cymew: The only way to wrap your head around conses is to play around with CAR, CDR, CONS, LIST and those for a day or so. 2015-11-02T16:30:56Z larsen__: I noticed no mention of "Land of Lisp", what do you think about it? 2015-11-02T16:31:03Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:31:10Z Cymew: I love it! :) 2015-11-02T16:31:31Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:31:50Z djh: I enjoyed LoL but I couldn't recommend it as a standalone book for learnign lisp 2015-11-02T16:32:29Z mordocai: Yeah, I would recommend using Land of Lisp + other resources. 2015-11-02T16:32:34Z mordocai: Land of Lisp is just fun 2015-11-02T16:32:44Z dwchandler: larsen__: I read land of lisp. it was fun and I learned things. nothing too bad to say about it, and a lot good. however, later I read PCL and I'd recommend that over LoL for most people 2015-11-02T16:33:15Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:34:14Z djh: I found that working through the examples in LoL was good practice for actually writing lots of lisp, whilst PCL having few practicals at the end meant I could read it whilst commuting on the train; so I worked through both at once. Worked quite well 2015-11-02T16:34:30Z djh: *until the end 2015-11-02T16:35:13Z Shinmera: I'd recommend actually writing the practicals out yourself though. Experimenting around with the code given and expanding it enhances the experience a lot. 2015-11-02T16:36:27Z djh: The Wumpus game even got my other half interested, which is quite an acheivement :) 2015-11-02T16:41:52Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:42:14Z shka is lost in quasiquotes 2015-11-02T16:42:58Z Shinmera: http://cliki.net/Three%20Comma%20Programmer ? 2015-11-02T16:43:23Z shka: Shinmera: two comma 2015-11-02T16:43:25Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158253 2015-11-02T16:43:59Z shka: it is not like i need it 2015-11-02T16:44:00Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T16:44:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:44:22Z shka: but i wanted to know how i can write macro that defines macro that defines macrolet 2015-11-02T16:44:31Z shka: for the sake of doing it 2015-11-02T16:44:57Z shka: and what is interesting 2015-11-02T16:45:10Z shka: i'm getting this 2015-11-02T16:45:12Z shka: (MACROLET ((TEST (&BODY B) 2015-11-02T16:45:13Z shka: `(,* ,@B))) 2015-11-02T16:45:47Z shka: which is not exactly what i ment 2015-11-02T16:50:34Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:51:14Z shka: i think that i don't understand `, afterall 2015-11-02T16:51:17Z shka: :/ 2015-11-02T16:51:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:55:15Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:55:55Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:57:07Z davidfurman joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:57:21Z davidfurman quit (Changing host) 2015-11-02T16:57:21Z davidfurman joined #lisp 2015-11-02T16:58:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T16:59:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T17:00:02Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:00:29Z Viaken quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:02:25Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:03:52Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:04:56Z |nix|`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T17:04:57Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:05:16Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-02T17:09:35Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T17:10:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-02T17:12:28Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:12:59Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:14:02Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:15:36Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi 2015-11-02T17:15:51Z Posterdati: jackdani1l: hi 2015-11-02T17:16:02Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:16:52Z larsen__: Posterdati: are you italian? :) 2015-11-02T17:16:52Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:17:08Z Posterdati: yes 2015-11-02T17:17:31Z Xach: drmeister: around now. 2015-11-02T17:18:06Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T17:19:32Z Posterdati: larsen__: why? 2015-11-02T17:19:49Z larsen__: Posterdati: your nickname hints at a movie I love (I'm italian too) 2015-11-02T17:20:13Z Posterdati: larsen__: ok 2015-11-02T17:20:37Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:21:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:22:35Z drmeister: Xach: I'm trying to build quicklisp using clasp with the new Cleavir compiler. 2015-11-02T17:22:44Z Xach: drmeister: cool 2015-11-02T17:22:56Z drmeister: I'm getting this: Does it speak to you at all? 2015-11-02T17:22:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wUlrFJ6D/ 2015-11-02T17:23:24Z Posterdati: larsen__: lo vede che stuzzica! 2015-11-02T17:23:34Z Xach: drmeister: that is part of deflate, which is code from Pierre Mai 2015-11-02T17:23:43Z Xach: drmeister: I'm not familiar with its internals, sorry 2015-11-02T17:23:53Z drmeister: Ok, that helps 2015-11-02T17:24:17Z Xach: drmeister: I *do* know that it works on every other implementation, so if it's doing something de jure unportable, it's at least de facto portable 2015-11-02T17:24:18Z larsen__: Posterdati: :) 2015-11-02T17:25:07Z drmeister: Xach: I'm made a LOT of changes to clasp (new compiler, immediate fixnums, tagged pointers) since I last built quicklisp with it. So there may be new problems. 2015-11-02T17:25:21Z Fare: Xach: quicklisp still comes with asdf 2.26... which isn't supported anymore. 2015-11-02T17:27:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:28:39Z Fare: drmeister, is the current asdf working properly on clasp, or do you need further patches? 2015-11-02T17:28:43Z lisse_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:29:19Z mission712 quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-02T17:30:21Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:30:54Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T17:32:12Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:32:43Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:35:04Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:35:51Z drmeister: Fare: My submodule of ASDF works fine but is a bit old - I'm not sure what version it is. 2015-11-02T17:37:59Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:38:28Z Fare: drmeister, can you try with the latest 3.1.6 release? if you can run the asdf test suite, even better. 2015-11-02T17:43:02Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:44:50Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2015-11-02T17:45:06Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:45:11Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:45:38Z Guest47571 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:47:18Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-02T17:47:21Z jackdani1l: Posterdati: hey 2015-11-02T17:47:23Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:48:08Z jackdani1l is now known as jackdaniel 2015-11-02T17:51:15Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T17:51:45Z jackdaniel: Fare: is there any plan to finish ASDF API and freeze it? (in the future maybe) 2015-11-02T17:53:06Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:56:01Z ryu0: ??? 2015-11-02T17:56:07Z ryu0: how strange. 2015-11-02T17:56:47Z Posterdati: jackdani1l: I need to start ecl with swank, but I cannot connect from remote 2015-11-02T17:56:56Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T17:57:45Z ryu0: gentle talks about something called ED, saying it should do something when used at the REPL, but sbcl doesn't seem to understand. 2015-11-02T17:57:54Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: you have to (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")) (swank:create-server …)) 2015-11-02T17:57:58Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T17:58:12Z jackdaniel: swank listens by default on the localhost only 2015-11-02T17:58:15Z Xach: ryu0: you can teach sbcl how to ed. 2015-11-02T17:58:18Z jackdaniel: it's unsafe though 2015-11-02T17:58:19Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ah! 2015-11-02T17:58:32Z Xach: http://lispblog.xach.com/post/129215925278/my-new-favorite-slimesbclccl-trick 2015-11-02T17:58:40Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks 2015-11-02T17:59:00Z jackdaniel: np 2015-11-02T17:59:01Z ryu0: Xach: what's it for though? 2015-11-02T17:59:11Z ryu0: Xach: does it test for syntax errors and such? 2015-11-02T17:59:22Z Xach: ryu0: it's for editing something. 2015-11-02T17:59:30Z ryu0: oh. right. 2015-11-02T17:59:56Z ryu0: how unusual. i'm used to using a separate program to edit things. 2015-11-02T18:00:27Z Xach: that link shows you how to have emacs do the editing, even though the command runs in sbcl 2015-11-02T18:00:33Z dfcat joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:01:42Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: working! 2015-11-02T18:01:48Z ryu0: so what does ED offer you over using an external editor? 2015-11-02T18:02:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm trying to launch ecl + swank from systemd 2015-11-02T18:02:19Z ryu0: i can see it probably offers some degree of language integration... 2015-11-02T18:02:41Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-02T18:03:58Z Xach: ryu0: I use it because I have a function that returns a filename, given an object, and that filename is kind of long. So I just use something like (ed (object-pathname object)) instead of navigating in the editor. 2015-11-02T18:04:11Z Xach: and I really actually just do (edit-object object) 2015-11-02T18:04:44Z ryu0: so it's an optional feature I should check out at some point then. 2015-11-02T18:05:25Z ryu0: i'm close to finishing chapter 3. i'm on the advanced topics part now. 2015-11-02T18:05:44Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:05:53Z Xach: ryu0: i have used CL for a very long time but only used ed for real this year. 2015-11-02T18:06:02Z Xach: you could pretend it doesn't exist 2015-11-02T18:06:33Z ryu0: Xach: it's just i'm used to certain staples from editting other types of programs, so some things i simply can't give up. 2015-11-02T18:06:54Z ryu0: but, we'll see. 2015-11-02T18:06:57Z Xach: ryu0: like what? 2015-11-02T18:07:00Z ryu0: vim. 2015-11-02T18:07:08Z Xach: what staples? 2015-11-02T18:07:28Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:07:29Z ryu0: well, i'm used to using vim. i consider it a staple for editting my source code files. 2015-11-02T18:07:33Z ryu0: among other things. 2015-11-02T18:08:13Z ryu0: i guess there's also what i use for tracking my source code changes, being git right now. 2015-11-02T18:08:34Z ryu0: but i suppose these tools can be replaced. 2015-11-02T18:09:43Z Xach: oh, you could teach ed about vim, if you wanted. but it's not like ed is something everyone uses all the time in emacs, though. it's just a thing. 2015-11-02T18:10:28Z ryu0: does the REPL debugger differ between implementations? 2015-11-02T18:10:30Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:10:35Z shka: ryu0: i have vi in my emacs ;-) 2015-11-02T18:10:43Z Xach: ryu0: yes, each one is different. 2015-11-02T18:10:53Z ryu0: huh. okay. 2015-11-02T18:11:16Z ryu0: i suppose that is one thing i will just have to learn through practice. 2015-11-02T18:11:22Z larsen__: wrt reading material, is there any particular project you recommend reading to learn? 2015-11-02T18:11:34Z larsen__: I mean reading code, to be more clear 2015-11-02T18:11:58Z Xach: I quite like cl-ppcre's code. It does an interesting task, is fast, and uses a lot of CL features. 2015-11-02T18:12:11Z larsen__: thank you 2015-11-02T18:12:28Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:13:49Z ryu0: Xach: may i ask how CL debuggers in general differ from C debuggers? i'm used to the idea that using a debugger means a super slow program (valgrind, etc). 2015-11-02T18:14:37Z shka: ryu0: well, there is a reason why valgrind slow downs program execution 2015-11-02T18:14:43Z Xach: ryu0: I don't know, sorry. I don't use C debuggers. In CL, you can usually do things like see local variables, look at backtraces, etc. 2015-11-02T18:15:02Z shka: since it (correct me if i'm wrong) emulates cpu 2015-11-02T18:15:03Z Xach: ryu0: if you use the slime integration, you can jump to the form or function that signaled an error and try to see what's up. 2015-11-02T18:15:16Z Xach: ryu0: also, your idea about a debugger is wrong. 2015-11-02T18:16:32Z ryu0: oh? 2015-11-02T18:17:00Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:17:21Z Xach: A debugger does not inherently mean a super-slow program 2015-11-02T18:17:33Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-02T18:17:57Z ryu0: let me guess. it's just a general term for a program that helps find and fix bugs? 2015-11-02T18:18:28Z Xach: Yes. 2015-11-02T18:18:48Z jlarocco: shka: valgrind does not emulate the cpu 2015-11-02T18:18:54Z shka: oh, ok 2015-11-02T18:19:39Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:19:41Z ryu0: jlarocco: really? i wonder why it had issues when i used some custom ASM that were legal instructions but valgrind hiccuped on them. 2015-11-02T18:19:57Z ryu0: i forget which one it was now. 2015-11-02T18:20:42Z shka: well, my impression was that valgrind is virtual machine 2015-11-02T18:21:04Z shka: that translates code into some kind of bytecode 2015-11-02T18:21:07Z jlarocco: eh, I guess it depends on how you look at it 2015-11-02T18:21:08Z shka: and than it runs it 2015-11-02T18:21:40Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:22:15Z shka: ryu0: anyway, debugger is just debugger 2015-11-02T18:22:29Z shka: there are some lisp twists to it 2015-11-02T18:22:39Z shka: for instance if condition was raised 2015-11-02T18:22:39Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T18:22:44Z shka: it may offer restart 2015-11-02T18:22:55Z shka: and you can select restart from debugger 2015-11-02T18:22:56Z jlarocco: it translates the assembly to an intermediate form, transforms it somehow, then compiles back to assembly that runs on the processor 2015-11-02T18:23:19Z icholy joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:23:20Z shka: well, obviously at some point it has to run on cpu 2015-11-02T18:23:22Z ryu0: would that be what i've heard called a recompiler? 2015-11-02T18:23:22Z jlarocco: so possibly even more inefficient than just emulating ;-) 2015-11-02T18:23:53Z shka: but in a nutshell you will be using it to inspect stack frames 2015-11-02T18:24:14Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:24:17Z shka: you can also (break) 2015-11-02T18:24:21Z jlarocco: ryu0: yes 2015-11-02T18:24:22Z icholy: With higher order functions, why is the procedure the first paramter instead of the last one? 2015-11-02T18:24:37Z shka: but honestly, i find it rather ankward to use 2015-11-02T18:24:41Z shka: icholy: convention 2015-11-02T18:24:59Z ryu0: jlarocco: i recall reading of two ways to run non-native machine code. interpretation or recompilation. 2015-11-02T18:25:10Z whartung: never really considered the condition system "the debugger", though arguably that facility is used to invoke restarts which prompt the REPL, which works as an ad hoc break point. But the restart system (in general) doesn't allow stepping/tracing per se, which I more relate the capabilit of a debugger 2015-11-02T18:25:18Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:25:49Z shka: icholy: and it is not even always like that 2015-11-02T18:25:55Z shka: for instance see sort 2015-11-02T18:26:24Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:26:26Z icholy: shka: thanks 2015-11-02T18:27:33Z icholy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T18:28:36Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:29:19Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:30:32Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2015-11-02T18:31:05Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.3.0, ASDF 3.1.6, CMUCL 21a, ECL 16.0.0, CFFI 0.16.0, cl-launch 4.1.4, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-11-02T18:31:16Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T18:32:53Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:33:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:33:41Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:34:01Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:34:20Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:34:33Z kdas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T18:35:23Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:36:12Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:36:28Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-02T18:36:54Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:40:37Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-02T18:42:20Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-02T18:44:02Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:44:17Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:44:18Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:45:33Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T18:46:44Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T18:47:12Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-02T18:47:44Z phoe_krk: hey #parens 2015-11-02T18:49:22Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:49:32Z fraya left #lisp 2015-11-02T18:51:30Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T18:54:28Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Which I don't believe Common Lisp does, normally. 2015-11-02T19:29:20Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/5/index.html ? 2015-11-02T19:29:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:29:25Z shka: basicly, add new class for my parameter, satisfy function, deftype… not thanks 2015-11-02T19:29:50Z shka: jackdaniel: key here is: dynamic checking 2015-11-02T19:30:07Z jackdaniel: for checking the type at runtime you have check-type 2015-11-02T19:30:42Z Shinmera: Type declarations are a compile time optimisation. It doesn't really make sense for them to be dynamic. 2015-11-02T19:32:18Z jackdaniel: shka: you may write macro which expands into (defun name (…) (check-type …) …) 2015-11-02T19:33:23Z k-stz: quicklisp.org is down? 2015-11-02T19:33:35Z Xach: Yes. 2015-11-02T19:33:47Z Xach: My hosting provider has an ongoing network problem. This is the first in many years. 2015-11-02T19:33:51Z shka: jackdaniel: but type still needs to be know at compile time 2015-11-02T19:33:55Z shka: Shinmera: i disagree 2015-11-02T19:34:08Z shka: well, technically speaking yes 2015-11-02T19:34:09Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T19:34:09Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T19:34:10Z Shinmera: shka: What, that they're a compile time optimisation? 2015-11-02T19:34:13Z Shinmera: Because they are. 2015-11-02T19:34:15Z Xach: k-stz: beta.quicklisp.org is not down, so dist updates still work fine. it is just the html website that is hard to access. 2015-11-02T19:34:28Z shka: Shinmera: it's just part of the story 2015-11-02T19:34:38Z Shinmera: You can declare a superior type and then check-type the dynamic one. 2015-11-02T19:34:43Z k-stz: Xach: I just nicht the quicklisp.lisp 2015-11-02T19:34:47Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T19:34:47Z Shinmera: But other than that it doesn't make sense. 2015-11-02T19:34:48Z jackdaniel: shka: you may make it (defun name (…) (declare …)* (check-type …)* …) – it's a macro after all 2015-11-02T19:34:53Z k-stz: *need my german seeps through 2015-11-02T19:34:56Z shka: for instance, you can use those to represent constraints for arguments 2015-11-02T19:35:03Z Shinmera: You should not. 2015-11-02T19:35:07Z Shinmera: Declarations are an optimisation. 2015-11-02T19:35:09Z Xach: k-stz: it is permanently at http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 2015-11-02T19:35:21Z k-stz: Xach thanks 2015-11-02T19:35:25Z shka: Shinmera: yes, let me repeat myself 2015-11-02T19:35:26Z Shinmera: They are a promise to the compiler and if you want to /check/ types, you should use check-type. 2015-11-02T19:35:34Z shka: i want to dynamicly generate and check type 2015-11-02T19:35:42Z shka: not because i want my program to run fast 2015-11-02T19:36:00Z shka: but to express clearly constraints 2015-11-02T19:36:05Z jackdaniel: I have that impression that you work against the language 2015-11-02T19:36:13Z Shinmera: Then just use check-type like everyone else? 2015-11-02T19:36:21Z shka: jackdaniel: not really, those are just asserts 2015-11-02T19:36:28Z shka: i can write macro to do that 2015-11-02T19:36:47Z jackdaniel: I trully have that impression! promise! 2015-11-02T19:36:51Z phoe_krk: wouldn't it be also working to make a simple :type :blahblah entry in a symbol-plist of whatever you want to check and then just check that wherever you'd like? 2015-11-02T19:37:28Z shka: Shinmera: once again, i want to have DYNAMIC type based on LEXICAL scope 2015-11-02T19:37:32Z Shinmera: If you morph an existing construct to do something else you're bound to make people who have to read your code hate you. 2015-11-02T19:37:59Z phoe_krk: it's amusingly easy to create new types that way, you simply grab a new keyword. and amusingly easy to check, you simply get/getf it from symbol plist. 2015-11-02T19:38:24Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T19:38:26Z shka: phoe_krk: well, yes you can do it like this 2015-11-02T19:38:40Z shka: or define class that wraps two arguments 2015-11-02T19:38:45Z phoe_krk: shka: then what's the problem? 2015-11-02T19:38:48Z shka: add type 2015-11-02T19:38:58Z shka: add satisfies function 2015-11-02T19:39:18Z shka: phoe_krk: passing integers this way is kinda silly 2015-11-02T19:39:25Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:39:31Z phoe_krk: why? 2015-11-02T19:39:46Z phoe_krk: integer is a type like anything else 2015-11-02T19:40:29Z shka: phoe_krk: do you really want to cons cell, put integer in and pass it that way? 2015-11-02T19:40:37Z Shinmera: shka: (unless (typep arg `(some ,thing ,dynamic)) (error "whoa nelly!")) 2015-11-02T19:40:39Z shka: it is not exactly efficient 2015-11-02T19:40:49Z phoe_krk: shka: I don't want to cons a cell 2015-11-02T19:41:01Z shka: Shinmera: yes, i know 2015-11-02T19:41:09Z phoe_krk: shka: I want to put an entry into the symbol's symbol-plist 2015-11-02T19:41:17Z shka: ok folks, i didn't want to get flamed 2015-11-02T19:41:36Z phoe_krk: no flame here, I'm just trying to cooperatively solve a problem 2015-11-02T19:41:37Z shka: i just wanted to know 2015-11-02T19:42:25Z shka: phoe_krk: well, you still need to build plist 2015-11-02T19:42:35Z shka: and than you will have to walk over it to get property 2015-11-02T19:42:42Z phoe_krk: shka: ummm... 2015-11-02T19:42:48Z phoe_krk: clhs symbol-plist 2015-11-02T19:42:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_4.htm 2015-11-02T19:43:19Z phoe_krk: isn't it, like, symbol-plist is built against a symbol and you don't have to pass it around together with the argument? 2015-11-02T19:43:21Z phoe_krk: or am I wrong? 2015-11-02T19:43:27Z lisse_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-02T19:43:53Z phoe_krk: let me hack it up real quick 2015-11-02T19:44:03Z shka: phoe_krk: not explicitly 2015-11-02T19:45:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:48:17Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-02T19:48:20Z phoe_krk: ...hm, this seems to work, as long as you pass a symbol and not a variable. 2015-11-02T19:48:59Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:49:14Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:49:38Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:50:19Z wuzzz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T19:51:36Z shka: well, asserts works 2015-11-02T19:51:50Z shka: and btw 2015-11-02T19:51:59Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T19:52:04Z shka: nyef: common lisp has parametric types 2015-11-02T19:52:12Z shka: and you can deftype it 2015-11-02T19:53:25Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-02T20:04:30Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:05:04Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-02T20:05:37Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:05:48Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:08:29Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-11-02T20:08:41Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:09:31Z ryu0: the gentle book says that every List object (number, symbol, list) is an expression. this seems to imply that a function call expression, say (+ 3 4), has nested expressions in 3 and 4. is this correct? 2015-11-02T20:09:57Z phoe_krk: is atom an expression? 2015-11-02T20:10:05Z phoe_krk: I doubt 2015-11-02T20:10:22Z nyef: It's pretty much correct, though I don't know that I'd use that terminology. 2015-11-02T20:10:30Z phoe_krk: hm, then, correct 2015-11-02T20:10:55Z phoe_krk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression#Use_in_Lisp 2015-11-02T20:10:58Z ryu0: it said numbers evaluate to themselves... that seems to imply they are expressions. 2015-11-02T20:11:49Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/form 2015-11-02T20:11:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 2015-11-02T20:12:01Z phoe_krk: yes, technically, an atom is a S-expression. 2015-11-02T20:12:21Z phoe_krk: and numbers eval to themselves. 2015-11-02T20:12:59Z phoe_krk: but from what I've seen people prefer to call atoms atoms 2015-11-02T20:13:01Z ryu0: i suspect there's more things that do this beyond what the book outlined... 2015-11-02T20:13:05Z antoszka: Not only numbers, there's a number of self-evaluating objects. 2015-11-02T20:13:13Z ryu0: T and NIL for example. 2015-11-02T20:13:14Z antoszka: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_abac.htm 2015-11-02T20:13:14Z phoe_krk: nil, t, keywords, some others 2015-11-02T20:13:22Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T20:13:27Z antoszka: Well, even strings. 2015-11-02T20:13:34Z phoe_krk: ^ 2015-11-02T20:14:00Z ryu0: are quoted lists included as well? 2015-11-02T20:14:22Z fortitude: does anybody have a good way to examine macrolet macros? 2015-11-02T20:14:31Z Shinmera: quoted forms don't evaluate to themselves. 2015-11-02T20:14:40Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:14:40Z ryu0: okay. 2015-11-02T20:14:41Z Shinmera: They evaluate to the content of the quoted form. 2015-11-02T20:14:45Z fortitude: *macrolet macro expansions, that is 2015-11-02T20:14:50Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:15:11Z antoszka: ryu0: Well, no, because (QUOTE (FOO BAR)) is not the same as (FOO BAR). 2015-11-02T20:15:34Z antoszka: ryu0: For the former of which a shorthand form is '(FOO BAR) 2015-11-02T20:15:45Z ryu0: yea, the book said so... 2015-11-02T20:16:11Z ryu0: shorthand for quote function or whatever it is exactly. 2015-11-02T20:16:25Z antoszka: Exactly that. 2015-11-02T20:16:56Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:16:59Z Shinmera: quote is a special operator 2015-11-02T20:17:02Z antoszka: In scheme ` , are also shorthands for QUASIQUOTE and UNQUOTE respectively, but for whatever (historical) reason they only exist in shorthand form in Common Lisp. 2015-11-02T20:17:35Z Shinmera: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1 2015-11-02T20:17:35Z specbot: Special Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 2015-11-02T20:18:23Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:18:43Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:19:58Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:20:18Z ryu0: hm. not bad. figured out how to use apply, sortof, even though it isn't fully explained yet... 2015-11-02T20:20:26Z ryu0: err map. 2015-11-02T20:20:32Z phoe_krk: ...wouldn't it be possible to make a reader macro that implements QUASIQUOTE and UNQUOTE? 2015-11-02T20:20:33Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:20:39Z ryu0: (map 'list 'sqrt '(1 4 9 16 25)) 2015-11-02T20:20:44Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:20:44Z phoe_krk: just a very, very stupid idea. 2015-11-02T20:20:51Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: there are such things 2015-11-02T20:20:58Z jackdaniel: check fare-quasiquotation for instance 2015-11-02T20:21:05Z phoe_krk: oh, thanks 2015-11-02T20:21:11Z jackdaniel: also some implementations provide extension for it 2015-11-02T20:21:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:21:34Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T20:23:56Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:24:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:24:47Z cosmicex` joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:26:53Z cosmicex` quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T20:26:59Z cosmicexplorer quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T20:27:55Z cosmicexplorer joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:28:47Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:30:06Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:30:34Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:33:46Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:34:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:34:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:35:51Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:37:17Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:39:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T20:49:56Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T20:51:59Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:52:38Z samssammerz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T20:53:34Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T20:59:32Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T20:59:54Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:01:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-02T21:05:02Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:05:55Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:06:20Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:06:57Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-02T21:07:25Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:08:00Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:08:03Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:08:22Z guaqua: are there any known issues with building sbcl with debian wheezy? http://paste.lisp.org/display/158335 2015-11-02T21:08:33Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:08:58Z guaqua: it seems to fail on alloc.o, with something related to pseudo-atomic.h and thread.h 2015-11-02T21:09:42Z Shinmera: Probably better to ask in #sbcl. 2015-11-02T21:10:00Z guaqua: thanks, will ask there 2015-11-02T21:10:21Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:10:27Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T21:10:43Z Xach: guaqua: what version? 2015-11-02T21:10:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:12:14Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:12:19Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-02T21:12:34Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T21:12:52Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:15:31Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:15:56Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:15:56Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:16:11Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:17:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:19:59Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:20:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:21:09Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T21:25:44Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-02T21:27:21Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T21:29:43Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:30:53Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:31:10Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:33:05Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-02T21:33:57Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:33:57Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:34:40Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:35:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:37:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:37:59Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T21:40:25Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T21:44:35Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:45:49Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:48:18Z otwieracz: How can I map through plist? 2015-11-02T21:48:44Z otwieracz: Like (mapcar (lambda (key value) …)) 2015-11-02T21:49:59Z Xach: otwieracz: loop presents one easy way. (loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr ...) 2015-11-02T21:50:16Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:50:32Z otwieracz: hmm 2015-11-02T21:50:41Z otwieracz: Could you explain this? 2015-11-02T21:51:11Z Xach: otwieracz: What would you like to know? 2015-11-02T21:51:26Z otwieracz: The „by” part looks a bit weird to me. 2015-11-02T21:51:50Z djinni` joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:51:53Z Xach: otwieracz: BY specifies the function to call on the iterated list to produce the next value to process 2015-11-02T21:52:24Z otwieracz: hmm. 2015-11-02T21:52:45Z zwdr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-02T21:53:03Z otwieracz: How can I collect those key-values back to plist? 2015-11-02T21:53:21Z Xach: otwieracz: instead of "...", use: collect key collect value 2015-11-02T21:53:39Z zwdr joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:54:04Z leafybasil quit 2015-11-02T21:56:02Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T21:56:04Z otwieracz: thanks! 2015-11-02T21:56:12Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:57:30Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T21:57:38Z namespace quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-02T21:59:23Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-02T22:01:21Z Viaken joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:02:58Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-11-02T22:04:17Z axion joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:05:29Z axion quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T22:05:52Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:05:52Z axion joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:07:14Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:09:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:10:35Z phoe_krk: ...plists really, *really* do not handle having strings as keys 2015-11-02T22:10:37Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:10:56Z phoe_krk: you have to change every single function so it doesn't test against #'eq but something different 2015-11-02T22:11:26Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T22:11:52Z White_Flame: the default test tends to be #'eql, not #'eq 2015-11-02T22:12:01Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:12:08Z Xach: in getf, it is EQ. 2015-11-02T22:12:10Z Shinmera: getf is specified to test with EQ 2015-11-02T22:12:14Z Bicyclidine: getf is old and weird. 2015-11-02T22:12:39Z White_Flame: the spec says "identical" 2015-11-02T22:12:50Z Shinmera: Yes, and identical is specified to be EQ 2015-11-02T22:13:06Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/identical 2015-11-02T22:13:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_i.htm#identical 2015-11-02T22:13:16Z White_Flame: ok, I read the image saving/loading stuff recently 2015-11-02T22:13:30Z OrangeShark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T22:13:34Z phoe_krk: ...I dislike alists because technically it's possible to overwrite values by appending a new one to the front, not modifying the former 2015-11-02T22:13:42Z phoe_krk: do common functions do that to alists? 2015-11-02T22:13:46Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: you know you can do that with plists, right? 2015-11-02T22:13:46Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: but that's the advantage of them... 2015-11-02T22:13:46Z Xach: phoe_krk: it is the same for plists. 2015-11-02T22:14:04Z Xach: and it's also a very nice property for certain kinds of code. 2015-11-02T22:14:06Z White_Flame: and you can setf car for an alist as well 2015-11-02T22:14:06Z wtbrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:14:07Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: so they can grow to arbitrary size? 2015-11-02T22:14:19Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: so you can enter & exit scoped bindings 2015-11-02T22:14:21Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: that's right, didn't think of that before. 2015-11-02T22:14:25Z Xach: It nicely mirrors temporary shadowing. 2015-11-02T22:14:55Z Bicyclidine: it is in fact common for plists, since most plists in lisp now are keyword arguments, and (apply #'some-fun :key value kvs-from-elsewhere) is common 2015-11-02T22:14:59Z phoe_krk: Xach: I don't want to end up with an alist that hosts only a fixed number of values but can cons itself to be arbitrarily large 2015-11-02T22:15:18Z White_Flame: ok, "same" implies eql, "identical" implies eq. had that overlapped 2015-11-02T22:15:40Z Xach: phoe_krk: that is a noble goal, along the lines of not wanting to build a boat with a hole in the bottom 2015-11-02T22:15:50Z zeroish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T22:16:03Z Xach: with practice, it becomes less likely 2015-11-02T22:16:11Z phoe_krk: Xach: I don't see the reference. You wouldn't build a boat with a hole in the bottom and you wouldn't create a data structure with an obvious possibility of a memory leak. 2015-11-02T22:16:20Z Bicyclidine: White_Flame: and compile file stuff has "similar" which is completely different. it is pretty good. 2015-11-02T22:16:23Z phoe_krk: s/create/design/ 2015-11-02T22:16:50Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:16:55Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-02T22:17:06Z Bicyclidine: saying alists have a possibility of a memory leak makes as much sense as saying arrays have a possibility of a memory leak 2015-11-02T22:17:07Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: some features are unbounded in memory use, but still practical 2015-11-02T22:17:12Z White_Flame: like scopes 2015-11-02T22:17:17Z Bicyclidine: you can just put stuff in an array, and it sticks around as long as you use the array! 2015-11-02T22:17:54Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: you can't shadow values with an array by sticking some more memory over it 2015-11-02T22:18:26Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: sure, any search that allows duplicates from the test will allow shadowing 2015-11-02T22:19:26Z White_Flame: a plist built & searched from the head is very comparable to an extendable vector searched from the tail 2015-11-02T22:19:29Z Bicyclidine: well, maybe not array, a FIFO or stack 2015-11-02T22:20:38Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:20:40Z Bicyclidine: i mean, you could conceivably forget to pop everything, and up with an infinite unused part 2015-11-02T22:20:45Z Bicyclidine: but it doesn't happen very often 2015-11-02T22:21:08Z White_Flame: the only time I've ever had a remote possibility of that was a tail-recursing main function 2015-11-02T22:21:47Z White_Flame: and there, I just had to tell the compiler to TCO it even in safe/debug/slow configurations 2015-11-02T22:22:15Z phoe_krk: ...I don't need the ability or even a possibility of shadowing. I need a simple map. 2015-11-02T22:22:32Z White_Flame: then use a hashtable? 2015-11-02T22:22:54Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: sounds overly complex, plus I'll need to search both by the key and the value. 2015-11-02T22:22:56Z White_Flame: it has better support for destructive modifications 2015-11-02T22:22:57Z Shinmera: Or just write some simple wrappers around an alist that ensure size or duplicate-less-ness. 2015-11-02T22:23:04Z phoe_krk: I'll just use alist and ensure that, Shinmera 2015-11-02T22:23:06Z Xach: Or use an alist, and access it in a way that maintains your required properties. 2015-11-02T22:23:12Z scottj left #lisp 2015-11-02T22:23:20Z phoe_krk: First check if a value exists, if yes, modify it, if not, push a new acons 2015-11-02T22:23:32Z White_Flame: clhs pushnew 2015-11-02T22:23:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pshnew.htm 2015-11-02T22:23:37Z Xach: phoe_krk: that is a very typical pattern 2015-11-02T22:23:37Z Bicyclidine: i mean, hashtables already exist in lisp, you don't need to sweat the complexity 2015-11-02T22:23:48Z Xach: keep in mind the principles of http://xach.com/lisp/security/ 2015-11-02T22:23:56Z White_Flame: well, for optimization you could do it yourself, rather than try to build on that 2015-11-02T22:24:14Z White_Flame: Bicyclidine: searching by key, not just value, is a valid reason to move from hashtables 2015-11-02T22:24:17Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:24:20Z White_Flame: if performance isn't a concern 2015-11-02T22:24:24Z Xach: (that is a joke) 2015-11-02T22:24:47Z White_Flame: if performance is a concern, then having 2 mirrored hashtables (k->v, v->k) could work 2015-11-02T22:24:51Z Bicyclidine: is this from an actual book? 2015-11-02T22:25:53Z Shinmera laughs heartily 2015-11-02T22:25:53Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T22:26:03Z Xach: Bicyclidine: yes. sold for real money. 2015-11-02T22:26:11Z phoe_krk: Xach: what the hell is this 2015-11-02T22:26:16Z Bicyclidine: a computer wrote this, right? i should get in on this market 2015-11-02T22:26:21Z White_Flame: wat 2015-11-02T22:27:06Z phoe_krk: Xach: people get rich over such things, correct? 2015-11-02T22:27:31Z Xach: Everything I've heard suggests that technical books are not an effective path to riches. 2015-11-02T22:27:45Z phoe_krk: then wtf is this 2015-11-02T22:27:55Z Shinmera: It's funny, that's what. 2015-11-02T22:27:56Z Bicyclidine: if you released this as an ebook you could maybe get a few bucks from people who don't know better 2015-11-02T22:28:04Z Bicyclidine: like those people who sell wikipedia articles on amazon 2015-11-02T22:28:09Z White_Flame: people get paid over such things, doubtful they get rich, so there's still incentive to crank out garbage 2015-11-02T22:29:31Z Xach: heh, the reviews on http://www.amazon.com/Programmers-Ultimate-Security-DeskRef-encyclopedia/dp/1932266720 are from Peter Seibel and nikodemus 2015-11-02T22:30:02Z White_Flame: "Don't buy unless you intend to sue the author. " :-D 2015-11-02T22:30:41Z Xach put up those screenshots 10 years ago, finds them funny on an annual basis 2015-11-02T22:31:03Z Shinmera: 32$ for Kindle, what a bargain! 2015-11-02T22:31:59Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:34:06Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:36:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:37:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:37:32Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:38:38Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:39:21Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:39:32Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:39:32Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:39:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:40:37Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:41:05Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:44:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-02T22:45:25Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:46:22Z Petit_Dejeuner`: "Ensure that only one instance of this function can be called at any given moment." Uh. 2015-11-02T22:47:42Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:48:06Z Petit_Dejeuner`: nreverse encryption 2015-11-02T22:50:59Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-02T22:52:09Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:55:50Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:56:06Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-02T22:56:58Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T22:58:26Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-11-02T22:58:32Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-02T22:58:42Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-02T23:01:46Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-02T23:02:10Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2015-11-02T23:03:01Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-02T23:07:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-02T23:08:04Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-02T23:08:25Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-02T23:10:30Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-11-02T23:11:58Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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However a desctructive reverse is not applicable to that situation 2015-11-02T23:59:21Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T00:05:51Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:07:11Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T00:07:26Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:07:41Z vhost- is now known as dmk 2015-11-03T00:08:07Z dmk is now known as dmv 2015-11-03T00:09:21Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T00:13:19Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:13:25Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:14:49Z phoe_krk: Why? 2015-11-03T00:14:54Z phoe_krk: Destructive reverse the magic string. 2015-11-03T00:14:59Z phoe_krk: There, security problem solved. 2015-11-03T00:15:13Z phoe_krk: ...with a "hey we need to cryptanalyze that" problem emerging. 2015-11-03T00:16:05Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:17:08Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-03T00:17:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T00:17:55Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:17:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:18:00Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:18:01Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:18:17Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:20:29Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:22:40Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-03T00:22:48Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:25:01Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:29:11Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This is why I have a com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package:rename-package to remove the name from the old package before assigning it to the new package. I'd admit it's a little anal, but I didn't write the standard. 2015-11-03T00:50:57Z Petit_Dejeuner` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:50:58Z pjb: I mean, cf. how com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname does it. 2015-11-03T00:52:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:52:43Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T00:57:03Z phoe_krk: https://twitter.com/BobRossGameDev/status/660894018964844545 2015-11-03T00:57:07Z phoe_krk: this is wonderfully lispy 2015-11-03T00:58:20Z pjb: ryu0: there are FOUR rounding functions in CL, so just choose the one that matches your pre-conceptions! TRUNCATE ROUND FLOOR CEILING 2015-11-03T00:59:21Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T00:59:57Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:01:28Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:01:41Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T01:02:26Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T01:02:58Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T01:03:01Z pjb: ryu0: if you write an application, it's usually as easy to target conforming CL and portability libraries than to target implementation specific APIs. I would advise you to choose conforming Cl and portability libraries over implementation and platform specific APIs unless you really cannot do otherwise. 2015-11-03T01:03:54Z pillton: Or write it such that addressing portability later is easy. 2015-11-03T01:03:58Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:04:33Z tetheno quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T01:04:46Z Zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:04:54Z pillton: In my experience, Bike has already done it. :) 2015-11-03T01:09:36Z phoe_krk: pjb: I was so confused about these rounding functions at first. 2015-11-03T01:13:17Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T01:15:53Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T01:16:51Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:18:18Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:21:05Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T01:21:18Z pjb: jackdaniel: using both a type declaration and a check-type on the same variable with the same type is dumb, because the type declaration implies that the check-type is dead code and therefore not generated! 2015-11-03T01:21:20Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T01:21:20Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:21:40Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T01:22:27Z pjb: jackdaniel: more generally, if (subtypep t1 t2) then (locally (declare (type t1 x)) (check-type x t2)) makes the check-type call dead code. 2015-11-03T01:22:56Z pjb: Never use declare type. 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I want to make it work right now and later I'll think up my own way of doing it 2015-11-03T02:55:50Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T02:56:24Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T02:56:44Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:02:34Z loke: phoe_krk: In general, using alists is more common (and easier to read) 2015-11-03T03:08:50Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:10:23Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:11:56Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:12:18Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-03T03:16:49Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:19:54Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:20:04Z Zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T03:21:36Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:22:23Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:23:45Z oleba` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:24:28Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:24:50Z oleba quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:25:04Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:27:05Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:28:58Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:28:59Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:33:59Z aleamb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:35:16Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:35:31Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:35:36Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:35:43Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:36:18Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T03:37:38Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:38:04Z hqingyi joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:38:07Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T03:38:36Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:39:00Z anderoonies joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:39:06Z anderoonies quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T03:40:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:40:09Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:43:17Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:43:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:45:35Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:46:57Z aleamb joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:47:54Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:48:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T03:48:16Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T03:54:11Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:57:09Z PlasmaStar quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-03T03:57:35Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-03T03:59:23Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:00:36Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:01:51Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-03T04:03:47Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:03:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-03T04:04:22Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-03T04:13:21Z White_Flame: re 2015-11-03T04:16:32Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:21:53Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:24:27Z beach: White_Flame: Were you the one suggesting porting LLVM to Common Lisp? 2015-11-03T04:24:47Z White_Flame: I thought it would be an interesting idea 2015-11-03T04:24:51Z White_Flame: nothing more than that 2015-11-03T04:24:59Z beach: I think it IS an interesting idea. 2015-11-03T04:25:16Z White_Flame: I also think it could be made much smaller in the process 2015-11-03T04:25:16Z beach: Right, I didn't mean to hold you to it. :) 2015-11-03T04:25:23Z beach: Definitely so. 2015-11-03T04:25:50Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T04:26:12Z beach: And it is a well-defined project. No need to invent a specification. 2015-11-03T04:30:19Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:31:00Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:33:06Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:33:28Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T04:33:59Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-11-03T04:36:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:36:44Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:37:37Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:40:27Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:40:33Z phf: we can beat those javascript guys at their own game 2015-11-03T04:40:43Z hqingyi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T04:41:01Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:41:51Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:42:26Z beach: phf: What's your plan for doing that? 2015-11-03T04:43:37Z phf: i will run clang on top of llvm on top of cmucl in order to easily integrate with c++ software 2015-11-03T04:44:17Z phf: of course i meant to say clasp rather then clang 2015-11-03T04:47:23Z beach: In what way is that the "game" of the "javascript guys"? 2015-11-03T04:47:40Z beach apologizes in advance for his ignorance. 2015-11-03T04:47:58Z Bike: probably a joke about everything compiling to js 2015-11-03T04:48:41Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:50:10Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T04:51:38Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-03T04:52:49Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:53:41Z phf: bike has it 2015-11-03T04:54:48Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-11-03T04:56:41Z phf: of course the point of javascript these days is not so much to solve simple dom manipulation problems, but to serve as a substrate for various feats of byzantine engineering 2015-11-03T04:57:02Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:00:14Z locus joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:02:05Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:03:55Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:04:18Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T05:06:10Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T05:07:31Z locus quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T05:07:51Z cpc26: I blame google 2015-11-03T05:08:15Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:08:33Z White_Flame: and then there's webasm coming down the pike 2015-11-03T05:09:34Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:09:44Z phf: i of course blame systemd 2015-11-03T05:09:50Z White_Flame: I think that having HLLs with embedded or referenced compilation rules to bring them down to webasm might be okay, but I don't think that's the direction they're going in. I bet it's all going to be AoT compiled into webasm, if it ever catches on 2015-11-03T05:14:12Z cpc26: google wants binaries to cover up the code and extend the c++ fetish and looks like Mozilla et. al. just wants to do proofs in ML and with "New Flash/web-assembly" nobody has to argue about the JS issues which Eich will never be a lisp, not even a Scheme... The rest is just Enterprise Quality brought down to JS. 2015-11-03T05:15:16Z cpc26: I have no doubt it will be AOT unless google runs out of money 2015-11-03T05:15:40Z cpc26: but then you could write in CL and not even use parenscript 2015-11-03T05:16:17Z locus joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:16:43Z aeth: On the one hand, web browsers are the only reason I can get away with not having Windows installed. On the other hand, websites these days are barely usable thanks to unnecessary JavaScript. Wasm will probably make things worse. 2015-11-03T05:17:02Z aeth: Except to have to buy new phones and tablets just to be able to run simple websites where only the text is relevant. 2015-11-03T05:17:05Z aeth: *Expect 2015-11-03T05:17:30Z cpc26: oh yeah it is not getting better - systemd for everyone 2015-11-03T05:17:37Z cpc26: I am going back to gopher 2015-11-03T05:18:08Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:18:26Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:18:28Z aeth: Eventually the bloat will get so bad that the web itself will be open for disruption. Which sounds like a huge, impossible task today, but performance is terrible and getting worse with time. 2015-11-03T05:19:07Z aeth: Iirc, Facebook is trying to do this on mobile. Let's hope a less centralized project wins. 2015-11-03T05:19:34Z pjb: cpc26: you can always build your own distribution, or use FreeBSD. 2015-11-03T05:19:35Z aeth: It's mostly just text, but the web does it so badly now. 2015-11-03T05:19:38Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:20:12Z cpc26: oh yeah I don't use those pedestrian systemd based distros or bsd 2015-11-03T05:20:16Z emma joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:20:16Z emma quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T05:20:16Z emma joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:20:20Z aeth: pjb: FreeBSD probably dosn't run everything that Linux can run, unfortunately. 2015-11-03T05:20:31Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:20:36Z cpc26: yeah nobody seems to use bsd 2015-11-03T05:20:45Z cpc26: guix looks nice 2015-11-03T05:21:13Z pjb: cpc26: actually, here, we should have the goal of building a lisp-based system. There's LispOS where the whole architecture is based on lisp, but I have also another project, "LEP" which would be to use a unix kernel (linux or bsd), and to rewrite all the userspace in lisp, from init to the user experience (ie. à la Android). 2015-11-03T05:21:38Z pjb: aeth: indeed. In this conception, a linux kernel is only used for the device drivers. 2015-11-03T05:21:40Z aeth: pjb: The latter project is probably more important. These days, the kernel is very unimportant imo. 2015-11-03T05:21:47Z pjb: You can throw away everything else written in C. 2015-11-03T05:21:58Z aeth: The kernel is unimportant relative to the work required to replace it usefully, at least. 2015-11-03T05:22:03Z pjb: aeth: just linke in Android, indeed. 2015-11-03T05:22:09Z pjb: like 2015-11-03T05:22:33Z pjb: So, I have an example with emacs: http://informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 2015-11-03T05:22:38Z aeth: Being able to run Linux binaries and Linux drivers is basically a necessity, at least until you get some network effects. 2015-11-03T05:23:09Z pjb: And started some "LEP" with ccl: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=summary&p=public/lep 2015-11-03T05:23:15Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T05:23:24Z pjb: aeth: we're in #lisp, we don't need network effects. 2015-11-03T05:23:40Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T05:23:41Z pjb: You can always virtualize. 2015-11-03T05:23:54Z phf: chuck moore dat shit 2015-11-03T05:23:59Z aeth: Virtualizing will cause a performance penalty. 2015-11-03T05:24:15Z aeth: pjb: Also, the reason we're using Common Lisp instead of designing and implementing our own Lisp/Scheme/whatever is network effects. 2015-11-03T05:24:47Z pjb: Yes, but the point of lispos and lep is NOT to use anything GNU/Linux. 2015-11-03T05:24:57Z aeth: Common Lisp is not perfect. It's API is not generic enough and the ordering and names could use improvement. I bring this up all the time but if you turn a elt into an nth or vice versa, you have to swap the order of the index and the list/sequence. 2015-11-03T05:25:07Z aeth: s/It's/Its 2015-11-03T05:25:11Z pjb: Ie. you wouldn't write a bash in lisp, that would be pointless. 2015-11-03T05:25:20Z pjb: You wouldn't write systemd in lisp, equaly pointless. 2015-11-03T05:25:54Z aeth: pjb: Right, writing bash in Lisp would be pointless when you can just port or directly use bash. 2015-11-03T05:25:59Z pjb: Or you can just start using Mezzano and improve it. 2015-11-03T05:26:10Z beach: pjb: Does LEP mean anything? 2015-11-03T05:26:25Z aeth: But unless you want to wait 15 years to use it as your system, you'll want to be able to run C/C++/etc. binaries. 2015-11-03T05:26:45Z beach: 15 years is not long. 2015-11-03T05:27:27Z pjb: aeth: and you don't want to run C/C++ binaries. 2015-11-03T05:27:41Z pjb: They are full of bugs, including security bugs. 2015-11-03T05:28:05Z cpc26: even symbolics used C? 2015-11-03T05:28:25Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:28:40Z White_Flame: if such binaries are converted to Lisp from the machine code level, there's still a possibility of having runtime array bound checks and such, depending on the level of automated reverse engineering involved 2015-11-03T05:28:45Z pjb: I don't think they had any program written in C. They offered a Zeta-C compiler for customers who had to compile C libraries on their systems. 2015-11-03T05:28:56Z pjb: I'm currently implementing a C to CL translator. 2015-11-03T05:28:57Z cpc26: oh right 2015-11-03T05:29:02Z aeth: pjb: Of course most C++ programs are nightmares when you look at the source code, open source or not. But there's a lot of them. So the only way to have a complete system is to use them. 2015-11-03T05:29:03Z pjb: (Well, I was last month). 2015-11-03T05:29:23Z pjb: aeth: you don't want to sell lispOS to people who write C or C++ programs! 2015-11-03T05:29:39Z pjb: You want to have a 100% pure lisp system for people who write lisp programs. 2015-11-03T05:29:43Z White_Flame: you can, if that allows them to use hot code replacement, etc 2015-11-03T05:29:48Z pjb: So already, that's about 500 programmers world wide. 2015-11-03T05:29:56Z pjb: talk of a network effect! 2015-11-03T05:30:03Z aeth: But if it can't run a web browser when Unix can, people will use Unix. 2015-11-03T05:30:14Z pjb: Who care about people? 2015-11-03T05:30:14Z aeth: You don't have to include it in your default install. 2015-11-03T05:30:16Z beach: pjb: Can you say more about your C to Common Lisp translator? 2015-11-03T05:30:37Z aeth: pjb: The only thing that matters when making a software project is people. 2015-11-03T05:30:41Z pjb: beach: cpp is implemented. Last I was debugging the C11 parser. 2015-11-03T05:30:55Z pjb: I intend to make it able to translate the C sources of GNU emacs. 2015-11-03T05:31:03Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T05:31:12Z beach: pjb: How are you planning to deal with the low-level C constructs such as &? 2015-11-03T05:31:15Z White_Flame: and convert them into elisp? 2015-11-03T05:31:32Z pjb: beach: by respecting the C11 standard to the letter. 2015-11-03T05:31:48Z pjb: and praying for the sources of GNU emacs to be clean enough. :-) 2015-11-03T05:31:56Z beach: Heh! 2015-11-03T05:32:03Z beach: pjb: Do you want help with that? 2015-11-03T05:32:04Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:32:17Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:32:31Z pjb: I'm currently distracted by other projects, so not right now. But when I come back to that project, sure. 2015-11-03T05:32:39Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:32:53Z beach: pjb: I can definitely see myself contributing to such a project. 2015-11-03T05:33:01Z beach: So keep us updated. 2015-11-03T05:34:23Z beach: pjb: You never said whether LEP stands for anything? 2015-11-03T05:34:26Z pjb: Probably two back ends would be useful. One producing "low level" lisp code, unmaintainable, just to be compiled and run. Another translating to a higher level lisp source, that could be used to fork and switch the maintainance from C to CL. 2015-11-03T05:34:40Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:34:49Z pjb: LEP - Lisp Empowered Program :-) http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lep&h=09c1d9449cccaf929d023c17455806a29671df41&hb=9a00fa5632e63e0edc1f43c1f66cef22cde09091&f=README 2015-11-03T05:35:55Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:36:01Z beach: Thanks. 2015-11-03T05:36:26Z cyphase is now known as Guest32406 2015-11-03T05:36:27Z pjb: Whoah! It's already been 2 years since the last commit :-( 2015-11-03T05:36:38Z beach: Time flies like an arrow. 2015-11-03T05:36:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:38:10Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:38:10Z jackdaniel: pjb: as far as I understand declarations are promises to compiler which it's safe to ignore. Hence check-type has sense combined with declare. Unless I'm wrong? 2015-11-03T05:38:15Z beach: pjb: So replace all user-level code. Does that include the dynamic linker? 2015-11-03T05:40:17Z beach: jackdaniel: If you use check-type, I would say declarations are redundant. 2015-11-03T05:40:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:40:47Z jackdaniel: given smart enough compiler (ECL doesn't deduce declaration from check-type (yet)) 2015-11-03T05:40:57Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T05:41:11Z beach: jackdaniel: We can work on that. :) 2015-11-03T05:41:25Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:41:51Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:42:19Z locus quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T05:42:21Z jackdaniel: yeah, it's on the roadmap. It doesn't change a fact that putting declaration *and* check-type might have desired effects (regarding pjb's remark from backlog) 2015-11-03T05:42:31Z jackdaniel: s/a fact/the fact/ 2015-11-03T05:42:59Z jackdaniel: :-) 2015-11-03T05:43:16Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:43:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: (defun f (x) (declare (integer x)) (check-type x integer) (+ 1 x)) Since you promise you never pass anything else than an integer to f, the check-type is useless. If the compiler takes into account the declaration it will deadcode the check-type. And if it doesn't since you never pass a non integer, it is useless and slowing down your program for nothing, since you've promised it would never be a non integer. 2015-11-03T05:44:43Z Bike: i've done (defun ... (check-type ... type) (locally (declare type ...) ...)) once or twice 2015-11-03T05:44:54Z pjb: beach: yes, that would include the dynamic linker. For a start, we'd use save-lisp-image, since we'd only have a lisp implementation. Of course, you could write a compiler generating new executables. 2015-11-03T05:44:55Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T05:45:05Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:45:19Z pjb: Bike: here, the declare is useless, because the compiler can trivially infer it from the check-type. 2015-11-03T05:45:26Z pjb: It is just plain silly to use both. 2015-11-03T05:45:30Z Bike: unless it doesn't 2015-11-03T05:45:35Z jackdaniel: pjb: mere ability isn't a guarantee 2015-11-03T05:46:50Z pjb: beach: now, of course, at the beginning there may still be a need to use some C libraries (notably those used by the CL implementation, and therefore the dynamic linker might have to be included. 2015-11-03T05:48:18Z __uu___ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:48:41Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:48:48Z beach: pjb: Got it. 2015-11-03T05:49:32Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:49:37Z beach: pjb: A project like this one: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html would be useful for your purpose. 2015-11-03T05:50:18Z beach: My thinking with that project is to go directly to the kernel system calls, rather than going through libc. 2015-11-03T05:50:19Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-03T05:51:52Z pjb: Indeed. Syscalls should be the only place where we'd do FFI. Elsewhere we could have lisp data everywhere. 2015-11-03T05:52:58Z beach: Well, I was thinking of not doing FFI in the sense of using the C calling conventions. Instead, I was thinking of doing the interface imposed by the kernel, as in passing things in the right registers, etc. 2015-11-03T05:53:19Z beach: But, yeah, there are some C-isms in the kernel interface as well. 2015-11-03T05:53:24Z beach: Structs, etc. 2015-11-03T05:53:26Z pjb: The data forms. 2015-11-03T05:53:28Z pjb: formats. 2015-11-03T05:53:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T05:53:32Z beach: Yeah. 2015-11-03T05:53:48Z pjb: Happily, there's no syscall using floats AFAIK. 2015-11-03T05:56:31Z Guest32406 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-11-03T05:59:59Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T06:01:07Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T06:02:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-03T06:02:45Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-03T06:05:46Z wizzo quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-03T06:06:18Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T06:06:18Z wizzo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T06:06:18Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T06:10:33Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T06:14:43Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T06:16:52Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T06:18:08Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T06:19:07Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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Is anyone using RCL under CCL? I have the feeling that it worked for me fine few weeks ago, and still does under SBCL. Anyway, now on CCL I see error like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158385 2015-11-03T08:42:46Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:43:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:44:59Z flambard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:46:09Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:46:35Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:47:53Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:51:29Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:51:49Z nostoi joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:51:59Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:52:06Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:54:02Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-03T08:55:03Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T08:59:21Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T08:59:39Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:00:40Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:03:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:03:24Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:04:59Z kalzz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:06:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:06:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:06:53Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:08:35Z akkad: mrSpec good to use ccl. as sbcl is under a non gpl friendly license 2015-11-03T09:09:13Z akkad: so it's not truly free. 2015-11-03T09:09:44Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T09:09:48Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:10:32Z mrSpec: akkad: hehe, thx for info, however It's not the biggest issue for me now ;) 2015-11-03T09:11:05Z mrSpec: I downgraded quicklisp to "http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2015-09-24/distinfo.txt" and it solved the problem. 2015-11-03T09:11:51Z jlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T09:11:53Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:12:10Z johann_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T09:12:32Z mrSpec: So it must be somehow related to CFFI update. 2015-11-03T09:12:50Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-03T09:12:56Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:14:03Z LilSusieCrabCake: Does it make y'all sad that #clojure has almost twice as many people as this room? 2015-11-03T09:14:53Z blubjr: whats that 2015-11-03T09:16:11Z LilSusieCrabCake: It's a Hickey lang that lets you improve write Java with a Lispy crust 2015-11-03T09:17:00Z LilSusieCrabCake: my bad peepz I been hittin the J sauce to haird ... love y'all lispy critterz <3 2015-11-03T09:17:07Z LilSusieCrabCake goes to bed 2015-11-03T09:19:23Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:21:29Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:24:06Z jackdaniel: lol 2015-11-03T09:27:19Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:27:26Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:27:44Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:31:48Z kalzz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:34:15Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-03T09:39:40Z pjb: LilSusieCrabCake: yes, it makes me sad. 2015-11-03T09:40:30Z pjb: LilSusieCrabCake: on the other hand, if as I would wish, Rickey had made clojure a CL library, I can admit he wouldn't have attracted those lispers. All in all, few CLispers left CL for clojure: they are newbies. 2015-11-03T09:40:56Z pjb: You can "write java" with a true CL crust using ABCL. 2015-11-03T09:41:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:42:44Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:47:28Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:48:12Z splittist: akkad: what do you mean about sbcl's 'license'? 2015-11-03T09:48:47Z Ober: splittist: it was pretty straight forward I thought 2015-11-03T09:49:03Z Ober: != gpl, vs gpl. 2015-11-03T09:50:49Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:50:57Z White_Flame: "gpl friendly" is what was asked. I don't understand how SBCL's public domain statement would be unfriendly to use in GPL projects 2015-11-03T09:53:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:54:23Z splittist: There are a handful of BSD(ish) files inherited from The Ancients 2015-11-03T09:55:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T09:57:33Z White_Flame: can't BSD code imported into GPL projects assume the GPL license? Isn't that within what BSD allows? 2015-11-03T09:58:31Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T09:58:31Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T09:59:17Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T09:59:32Z loke: White_Flame: That depends if it's the 3-clause or 2-clause license, right? 2015-11-03T09:59:46Z splittist: Actually, there are in ccl as well e.g. LOOP http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/release/1.11/source/library/loop.lisp 2015-11-03T10:00:19Z loke: There aren't many Lisp-based GPL'ed projects out there, are ther? 2015-11-03T10:00:34Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T10:00:56Z White_Flame: loke: the 3rd clause is about not using author names to promote the derived product. No clue if that has contention with GPL 2015-11-03T10:02:10Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-03T10:04:28Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:04:54Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:04:58Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:06:51Z jackdaniel: maybe he means that some companies invest in open source to have non-gpl'ed free software alternatives? (not sure, just guessing) 2015-11-03T10:08:19Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:08:38Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T10:08:51Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:09:04Z guicho: minion: any updates? 2015-11-03T10:09:04Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 2015-11-03T10:10:59Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:14:22Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:14:41Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:15:08Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:15:38Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:16:43Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T10:20:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:22:17Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-03T10:23:59Z larsen__ is now known as larsen 2015-11-03T10:24:05Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:26:46Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-03T10:28:36Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-03T10:29:11Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T10:30:42Z easye: Beginners question: does CL dictate an endian-ness for {WRITE,READ}-BYTE and COPY-SEQUENCE? Or is it implementation dependent? 2015-11-03T10:31:37Z easye: I guess stupid question, as individual bytes don't really need an endian-ness described. 2015-11-03T10:32:51Z easye has another cup of coffee to wake up, and stop bothering #lisp. 2015-11-03T10:34:44Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:35:31Z Shinmera: When you do restore integers and so forth from a byte representation you need to handle endianness yourself, yes. 2015-11-03T10:35:46Z easye: Right. But if I am just dealing with bytes, it doesn't matter. 2015-11-03T10:36:03Z easye: Sorry to rubber duck #lisp 2015-11-03T10:41:00Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:42:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-03T10:46:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T10:58:27Z alchemis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T10:59:05Z loke: easye: Well, anything other than (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) is very poorly defined in CL 2015-11-03T10:59:39Z loke: I was playing around with odd sizes like (UNSIGNED-BYTE 9) or 3 or whatever, and all CL 2015-11-03T10:59:46Z loke: I was playing around with odd sizes like (UNSIGNED-BYTE 9) or 3 or whatever, and all CL's I tried did different thigns. 2015-11-03T11:00:34Z loke: The most interesting one was Clisp which actually supports arbitrary byte sizes. I.e. (UNSIGNED-BYTE 3) does what you'd hope it does. 2015-11-03T11:01:37Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-03T11:01:59Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:03:54Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:11:52Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:13:06Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:15:12Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:17:25Z XachX: Ub8 is also not defined. It happens to do what you want everywhere though. 2015-11-03T11:17:38Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:18:20Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:18:38Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:19:16Z lisp375 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:19:36Z leafyba__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:20:03Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:20:10Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:22:38Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:22:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:23:27Z lisp375 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:24:37Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:24:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:26:41Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:28:27Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:29:51Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:30:46Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:32:16Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:34:27Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:36:44Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:37:39Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:37:48Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T11:37:59Z johns` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:37:59Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:38:12Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:41:52Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:41:58Z duikboot_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:41:59Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:42:07Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:44:23Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:45:54Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:47:37Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:49:11Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-03T11:50:17Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:51:38Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:53:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:54:27Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T11:55:42Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:55:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:56:05Z pjb: easye: so it is not a entirely stupid question. From the point of view of lisp, binary files are files of a finite subtype of integer or its subtypes signed-byte and unsigned-byte. In this point of view, there's no notion of endianness, since integers are integers. But from the point of view of external processes, the lisp binary files thus created will have a specific format. 2015-11-03T11:56:08Z pjb: clhs open 2015-11-03T11:56:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 2015-11-03T11:56:26Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T11:56:33Z pjb: easye: notice that by default, the :external-format argument doesn't apply to binary files (but an implementation could have such an extension). 2015-11-03T11:57:15Z pjb: easye: so the actual file format, and how the bits of the finite subtype of integers that are stored in the binary file are laid out in this file, is entirely implementation specific. 2015-11-03T11:57:35Z pjb: easye: ie. cf. the documentation of your implementation, it should tell you how the bytes are written. 2015-11-03T11:58:32Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:58:54Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-03T11:58:57Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:00:18Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T12:01:02Z pjb: easye: for example, clisp will write bytes of a multiple of 8 bits in little endian (even on hosts that use natively big endian), so that the binary files written by clisp can be copied to any system where clisp runs and read back smoothly. 2015-11-03T12:03:57Z pjb: easye: for byte sizes that are not multiple of 8 bits, clisp writes a header to indicate the actual end-of-file and packs the bits. 2015-11-03T12:05:49Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:06:31Z pjb: easye: clisp has extensions functions in the EXT package to read and write bytes in different byte orders. 2015-11-03T12:07:12Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T12:11:30Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T12:12:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:13:32Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:15:47Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T12:15:50Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:16:31Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-03T12:25:38Z johann_ joined 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C u later at home! Holiday's tomorrow! Hooray! :)) 2015-11-03T15:29:16Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:29:38Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:31:24Z m6s joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:32:29Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T15:32:32Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T15:32:56Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:35:03Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T15:39:31Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:40:22Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-03T15:49:04Z papachan: when i try to load my project on my other desktop i have this error: 2015-11-03T15:49:08Z papachan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158411 2015-11-03T15:50:38Z pjb: papachan: is there a system "example" distributed by quicklisp? 2015-11-03T15:51:11Z papachan: no 2015-11-03T15:51:16Z papachan: its my local project name 2015-11-03T15:51:23Z pjb: therefore? 2015-11-03T15:51:28Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:51:57Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:52:32Z papachan: i dont get it 2015-11-03T15:52:58Z pjb: Did you copy your system to your other desktop? 2015-11-03T15:53:09Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:53:25Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T15:53:27Z Xach: papachan: Where is your example.asd file located? 2015-11-03T15:55:10Z Devon: Any lispers in Grenoble? 2015-11-03T15:58:33Z papachan: Devon: french? 2015-11-03T15:59:01Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T15:59:11Z papachan: pjb: my system? i have installed quicklisp yes 2015-11-03T15:59:25Z papachan: Xach: at my root path 2015-11-03T15:59:35Z Xach: papachan: In /? 2015-11-03T15:59:59Z pjb: papachan: since your system named "example" is not distributed by quicklisp, then installing quicklisp won't help you having it installed on your other desktop. 2015-11-03T16:00:30Z pjb: papachan: I will assume you didn't install your "example" system on your other desktop. Therefore the solution is to install your "example" system on your other desktop. 2015-11-03T16:00:47Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:01:01Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:01:07Z pjb: papachan: despite having network interfaces, computers are not telepaths! 2015-11-03T16:01:44Z papachan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158414 2015-11-03T16:02:01Z pjb: So what? 2015-11-03T16:02:06Z pjb: This paste doesn't say anything. 2015-11-03T16:02:11Z Xach: You can safely ignore pjb 2015-11-03T16:02:19Z m6s quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:02:27Z pjb: AFAIK, it's the example on your first desktop, not on your other desktop, and it doesn't even mention the directory where it's installed! 2015-11-03T16:03:05Z Xach: papachan: Where are those files located? 2015-11-03T16:03:20Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T16:03:27Z pjb: You can safely ignore Xach now, for having no more information than me. 2015-11-03T16:03:49Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:04:22Z Xach: It isn't safe to ignore me. I can sneak up when you least expect it. 2015-11-03T16:05:47Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:05:49Z pjb: Devon: there's one: http://github-awards.com/users?utf8=%E2%9C%93&type=city&language=Common+Lisp&city=Grenoble 2015-11-03T16:06:36Z lispyon__ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:09:23Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:09:24Z cross joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:10:04Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:11:03Z lispyon__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T16:16:09Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:19:09Z Cthulhux`: Xach: *sneaks* *pokes you in the back* https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/issues/18 2015-11-03T16:19:35Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T16:20:46Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T16:21:14Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:21:36Z Xach adds it to todo.org 2015-11-03T16:21:42Z Cthulhux`: :D 2015-11-03T16:21:58Z Cthulhux`: you haven't even done that yet? while talking about ignoring... 2015-11-03T16:22:08Z ramky_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:22:45Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:24:37Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:24:43Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:25:10Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:25:25Z eudoxia: Cthulhux`: while you're here, i meant to reply on GH but forgot 2015-11-03T16:25:40Z eudoxia: i wrote a teeny tiny library that does sort of what buildapp does 2015-11-03T16:25:42Z Cthulhux`: eudoxia, no problem, we all need to wait for Xach :P 2015-11-03T16:25:52Z Cthulhux`: oh, neat 2015-11-03T16:25:53Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:25:55Z eudoxia: it fires a copy of the current running impl 2015-11-03T16:26:07Z eudoxia: so if you're running SBCL it runs SBCL, CCL then CCL, etc. 2015-11-03T16:26:16Z eudoxia: loads a system and dumps an executable using UIOP 2015-11-03T16:26:28Z eudoxia: i'm gonna integrate it with Ceramic, uh, soon 2015-11-03T16:26:38Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T16:26:45Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:26:47Z Cthulhux`: lol 2015-11-03T16:26:53Z Cthulhux`: soon? :D 2015-11-03T16:27:16Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:27:39Z eudoxia: i want to upload them and submit them to Quicklisp first 2015-11-03T16:27:58Z eudoxia: then update Ceramic so by the next QL release they'll be there 2015-11-03T16:28:01Z Cthulhux`: :-) 2015-11-03T16:28:10Z Cthulhux`: keep me posted on github, i can use git :p 2015-11-03T16:28:56Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:29:37Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:30:54Z Guest14 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T16:31:41Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T16:31:43Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:32:15Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:35:38Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:37:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:37:50Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:39:27Z shka: why serapeum:drop-while is not exported from package? 2015-11-03T16:39:44Z pjb: It is exported. 2015-11-03T16:39:49Z pjb: Since it has only a single colon! 2015-11-03T16:41:07Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-03T16:42:03Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T16:42:16Z shka: pjb: The symbol "DROP-WHILE" is not external in the SERAPEUM package. 2015-11-03T16:42:31Z pjb: It is, since you wrote: serapeum:drop-while 2015-11-03T16:42:40Z shka: right 2015-11-03T16:42:42Z pjb: You couldn't read that if it wasn't exported. 2015-11-03T16:42:49Z shka: silly me 2015-11-03T16:42:56Z shka: but it is not external 2015-11-03T16:42:59Z Bike: shka: because they chose not to? 2015-11-03T16:43:06Z shka: uh 2015-11-03T16:43:11Z shka: but it is usefull! 2015-11-03T16:43:15Z pjb: exported and external are the same. 2015-11-03T16:43:29Z Bike: oh, cripes, utility library 2015-11-03T16:43:37Z pjb: If serapeum::drop-while wasn't exported, then reading serapeum:drop-while would signal an error! 2015-11-03T16:43:53Z Bike: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/package.lisp there's something called "drop" 2015-11-03T16:44:10Z shka: no 2015-11-03T16:44:21Z shka: it is not in the export list 2015-11-03T16:44:28Z Bike: pjb's just being weird 2015-11-03T16:44:52Z Bike: hm, drop-while looks like something that was intended for export 2015-11-03T16:44:54Z Bike: might wanna file a bug 2015-11-03T16:45:04Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:45:06Z shka: Bike: ok, thanks for sanity check 2015-11-03T16:45:11Z pjb: shka: there are other ways to export symbols than mentionning their names in the export list of a defpackage form! 2015-11-03T16:45:31Z shka: pjb: they choosed the first approach 2015-11-03T16:45:37Z pjb: shka: (find-symbol "DROP-WHILE" "SERAPEUM") 2015-11-03T16:45:46Z Bike: listen, shka got a read error 2015-11-03T16:46:03Z Bike: you're the one who was complaining about treating things in a legalistic mathematical framework before 2015-11-03T16:46:11Z pjb: Bike: no, no mention of errors from shka in the backlog. 2015-11-03T16:46:14Z shka: SERAPEUM::DROP-WHILE 2015-11-03T16:46:16Z shka: :INTERNAL 2015-11-03T16:46:20Z shka: pjb: happy now? 2015-11-03T16:46:24Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-03T16:46:25Z shka: IT IS INTERNAL 2015-11-03T16:46:28Z pjb: Ok. 2015-11-03T16:46:38Z shka: sorry 2015-11-03T16:46:41Z pjb: But before that you only showed us an exported symbol. 2015-11-03T16:46:42Z Bike: as imlpied by 'The symbol "DROP-WHILE" is not external in the SERAPEUM package', which is obviously an error 2015-11-03T16:46:46Z shka: i shouldn't get irritated 2015-11-03T16:46:48Z Bike: shka, don't apologize, pjb's being mean 2015-11-03T16:46:55Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:46:56Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:48:41Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:49:10Z phoe_krk: come on 2015-11-03T16:49:10Z phoe_krk: guys 2015-11-03T16:49:12Z phoe_krk: make love 2015-11-03T16:49:14Z phoe_krk: not importable code 2015-11-03T16:49:30Z phoe_krk: s/importable code/war/ 2015-11-03T16:49:38Z jackdaniel: but not here 2015-11-03T16:49:41Z jackdaniel: ;) 2015-11-03T16:50:04Z phoe_krk: would love be a generic? 2015-11-03T16:50:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-03T16:53:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:53:08Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:53:13Z shka_: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/issues/7 2015-11-03T16:53:22Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:53:31Z shka_: i feel so usefull 2015-11-03T16:54:23Z pjb: now write a patch and make a pull request! 2015-11-03T16:54:51Z shka_: i considered doing this 2015-11-03T16:55:19Z shka_: but solving this pull request would take more time than actually just adding those symbols to export list manually 2015-11-03T16:55:31Z shka_: so i will just skip that 2015-11-03T16:56:00Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:56:06Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:56:07Z jackdaniel: that's a true FOSS spirit 2015-11-03T16:56:30Z Bike: yeah, might as well, it's two lines 2015-11-03T16:57:28Z shka_: jackdaniel: let's be practical here 2015-11-03T16:57:43Z shka_: btw 2015-11-03T16:58:01Z shka_: this library has some really interesting functions 2015-11-03T16:58:47Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:58:59Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:59:33Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-03T16:59:41Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T16:59:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:00:07Z Bike: why would it take more time than that? 2015-11-03T17:00:48Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:01:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:02:15Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:03:18Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:04:40Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:05:46Z m6s joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:05:46Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:06:10Z m6s is now known as Guest3689 2015-11-03T17:07:13Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:07:24Z Petit_Dejeuner` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:07:28Z Takumo left #lisp 2015-11-03T17:08:00Z pjb: Bike: I was about to clone it and push a patch. But then, I realized how complex the procedure was going to be: 1- clone the repo on github 2- clone the clone locally 3- patch the file 4- commit (with a meaningful commit message) 5- push the patch to the clone on github 6- go to the github web to post a pull request. The lesson here is that providing small patches is too costly. 2015-11-03T17:10:03Z shka_: pjb: see? 2015-11-03T17:13:13Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:13:22Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:13:34Z eudoxia: nah github's web ui has a shortcut for all that 2015-11-03T17:13:55Z eudoxia: you just click on the pencil button over the file and you can make the changes, then it automatically creates a fork, branch, commit and PR 2015-11-03T17:14:42Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:14:58Z Guest3689 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4-dev) 2015-11-03T17:15:11Z mgs1 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:15:31Z mgs1 is now known as mgs` 2015-11-03T17:15:44Z mgs` quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T17:15:44Z mgs` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:16:22Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:17:13Z shka_: eudoxia: i didn't knew that 2015-11-03T17:17:51Z eudoxia: it's new 2015-11-03T17:17:58Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T17:18:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:19:18Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:19:56Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T17:21:09Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T17:23:44Z shka_: good to know 2015-11-03T17:23:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:25:54Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:29:47Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:30:05Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:31:03Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:31:16Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:32:55Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:33:52Z papachan: hello eudoxia 2015-11-03T17:33:56Z eudoxia: hi 2015-11-03T17:34:13Z papachan: how its doing with your project lucerne? 2015-11-03T17:34:26Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:34:33Z eudoxia: haven't really worked on it recently 2015-11-03T17:34:34Z eudoxia: why 2015-11-03T17:35:08Z papachan: because i dtect some weird problem when you start scaffold at travis-ci file 2015-11-03T17:35:31Z akkad notes the Bay lisp user group meeting was moved to Franz hq 2015-11-03T17:35:54Z eudoxia: ah probably 2015-11-03T17:37:27Z mgs` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:37:33Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T17:38:30Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T17:40:28Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-03T17:40:55Z eudoxia: so what's the problem 2015-11-03T17:42:39Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:47:10Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:50:09Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:50:57Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:55:07Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi 2015-11-03T17:55:20Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: o/ 2015-11-03T17:55:36Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I saw that slime-2.14 still didn't solve the mips, mipsel missing specs 2015-11-03T17:56:01Z jackdaniel: but it got merged, right? 2015-11-03T17:56:15Z Posterdati: I didn't recall 2015-11-03T17:57:02Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T17:57:29Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T17:58:13Z jackdaniel: then just bump on your PR :-) how did your systemd experiment worked? 2015-11-03T17:58:13Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:58:15Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T17:59:34Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:01:27Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:01:56Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I was able to launch a hunchentoot session belonging to user "lisp" 2015-11-03T18:02:02Z Posterdati: after boot 2015-11-03T18:02:34Z jackdaniel: great :) 2015-11-03T18:02:49Z Posterdati: I'm writing the test jig software for the adio board 2015-11-03T18:04:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:08:47Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:08:51Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T18:09:09Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:09:49Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:10:30Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:11:23Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:12:01Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:12:28Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:14:19Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:14:27Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:17:23Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T18:18:18Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:18:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:18:57Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:19:16Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:19:19Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:19:45Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:19:45Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:20:08Z Kruppe- quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-03T18:20:51Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:21:04Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:21:40Z guaqua: was there some new fashionable executable-creation library? (or basically something that would create an executable and parse command line parameters) 2015-11-03T18:23:16Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:26:15Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:26:31Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:28:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:28:38Z eudoxia: maybe you're looking for Roswell 2015-11-03T18:32:13Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:34:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:35:26Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:37:33Z guaqua: eudoxia: thanks, that was it. dunno though if it's actually worth switching to from clon... :) 2015-11-03T18:37:39Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T18:40:07Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:40:14Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:40:20Z ebrasca: I don't understand something about macros. 2015-11-03T18:42:50Z otwieracz: Xach: hey! 2015-11-03T18:43:42Z otwieracz: Xach: Looks like 2.14 (2015-06-01) is the latest slime available in Quicklisp. 2015-11-03T18:43:56Z otwieracz: Xach: (or at least I've recieved it with (ql:quickload :swank) on clear QL installation. 2015-11-03T18:44:20Z otwieracz: Xach: However, https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/ChangeLog here is 2015-10.18. SLIME is outdated in QL or I missing something? 2015-11-03T18:44:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:45:00Z Xach: otwieracz: I use slime releases 2015-11-03T18:45:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:45:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T18:45:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:45:34Z Xach: when there is a 2.15 or 2.14.1 or 3.0 or whatever, it will be reflected in quicklisp 2015-11-03T18:46:13Z otwieracz: 2.15 is the latest. 2015-11-03T18:46:41Z Xach: otwieracz: How can you tell? 2015-11-03T18:46:45Z otwieracz: https://github.com/slime/slime/releases 2015-11-03T18:47:23Z Xach: Ok. I have been using https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/slime_latest.tar.gz, which I think has not been updated 2015-11-03T18:47:38Z Xach: I'd like to write some code to scrape github for release info, but I haven't done it yet. 2015-11-03T18:47:40Z otwieracz: However, It did not solved my problem. :-( 2015-11-03T18:47:49Z otwieracz: So no hurry in updating. 2015-11-03T18:47:58Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-11-03T18:49:36Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:49:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:51:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T18:51:39Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:52:14Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:53:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:54:33Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:54:49Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T18:55:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:57:23Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-03T18:58:39Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T18:59:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:00:49Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:07:16Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:07:23Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:08:06Z otjura quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:09:11Z balle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T19:09:33Z ariqz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:09:37Z ariqz left #lisp 2015-11-03T19:10:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T19:10:51Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:11:01Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:11:35Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-03T19:14:16Z papachan: eudoxia: sorry i was out to lunch 2015-11-03T19:14:21Z eudoxia: ok 2015-11-03T19:14:29Z papachan: well its not a big problem 2015-11-03T19:14:37Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:14:48Z papachan: i will take a look and create an issue or maybe find something so i can PR to you 2015-11-03T19:15:22Z eudoxia: ok 2015-11-03T19:15:43Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:16:07Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:16:08Z blorp joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:16:40Z blorp left #lisp 2015-11-03T19:16:50Z ajtulloc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T19:17:18Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:17:31Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:17:53Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:18:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:18:12Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:19:18Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:19:39Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:19:54Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T19:21:24Z ramky_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T19:23:23Z mgs` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:24:37Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:25:47Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:27:32Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T19:29:05Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:29:21Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T19:29:41Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:34:39Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T19:36:34Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:36:48Z eudoxia_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T19:40:00Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:41:59Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:42:49Z johns` joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:46:45Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:51:13Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T19:56:58Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:58:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:59:19Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-03T19:59:49Z mgs` quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4-dev) 2015-11-03T20:00:37Z derrida quit (Quit: I quit, yo.) 2015-11-03T20:04:46Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:07:50Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:10:46Z erjoalgo: Hi. Does anyone know why (truename "asd[]asd" ) fails for any pathname with []? 2015-11-03T20:11:42Z erjoalgo: touch "asd[]asd". then (truename "asd[]asd" ) raises condition 2015-11-03T20:11:52Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:11:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:12:13Z euandreh_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:12:15Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-03T20:13:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-03T20:13:09Z mordocai: erjoalgo: (truename "~/asd\\[\\]asd") 2015-11-03T20:13:19Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:13:25Z mordocai: erjoalgo: Have to escape [], I believe they are used for wildcards 2015-11-03T20:13:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:14:53Z White_Flame: clhs make-pathname 2015-11-03T20:14:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pn.htm 2015-11-03T20:14:57Z White_Flame: search for { 2015-11-03T20:14:59Z White_Flame: erm [ 2015-11-03T20:15:16Z White_Flame: seems to be a directory specifier 2015-11-03T20:15:30Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:15:37Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:15:55Z mordocai: Ah, yeah. In any case, my guess that they needed to be escaped worked out lol 2015-11-03T20:16:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:16:33Z White_Flame: right, it also will yell about unbalanced brackets when doing (truename "[") 2015-11-03T20:16:41Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:16:46Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:16:49Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T20:16:54Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:17:07Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:17:10Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:17:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:17:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T20:17:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:17:58Z White_Flame: it's also interesting that the canonicalized outputted name of that file is #P"/home/user/asd\\[]asd" with only the open bracket escaped 2015-11-03T20:18:04Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:18:36Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:18:56Z mordocai: Yeah, escaping just the first works for me 2015-11-03T20:19:05Z erjoalgo: ahh, I see. thanks, escaping should be simple enough! 2015-11-03T20:19:46Z Xach: erjoalgo: Whether it works, or fails, will depend on the implementation. 2015-11-03T20:20:20Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-03T20:20:34Z quatro42 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:22:18Z quatro42 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T20:23:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:23:55Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:24:22Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:24:40Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:25:32Z emaczen: What is the recommended way to run processes? Is there a compatibility library? 2015-11-03T20:25:59Z jackdaniel: processes like a separate processes, not a threads? 2015-11-03T20:26:03Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T20:26:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: could not compile iolib on ecl 2015-11-03T20:26:38Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:26:41Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T20:26:42Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:26:44Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: :( 2015-11-03T20:26:59Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: how so? what's the error? 2015-11-03T20:27:06Z emaczen: jackdaniel: I want to start nodejs and evaluate some javascript code 2015-11-03T20:27:10Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:27:11Z jackdaniel: do you have libfixposix? 2015-11-03T20:27:17Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:27:17Z Posterdati: yes 2015-11-03T20:27:35Z jackdaniel: emaczen: I'd go with (uiop:run-program …) 2015-11-03T20:27:37Z Posterdati: I just changed user 2015-11-03T20:27:49Z jackdaniel: and what is the error? 2015-11-03T20:29:40Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158431 2015-11-03T20:29:48Z jackdaniel: emaczen: you can bind your own streams as i/o and run any arbitrary program portably 2015-11-03T20:29:53Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 2015-11-03T20:30:11Z jackdaniel: well, semiportably - as far as uiop supports given implementation 2015-11-03T20:30:32Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:30:56Z jackdaniel: aa, that one 2015-11-03T20:31:24Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158431 2015-11-03T20:31:24Z jackdaniel: it's iolib bug I've noticed recently. When I'll have time I'll try to provide a fix - but if you'll fix it make a pull request against iolib 2015-11-03T20:31:31Z jackdaniel: I'll have more time for the other stuff 2015-11-03T20:31:51Z Posterdati: what is the problem? 2015-11-03T20:32:10Z jackdaniel: the problem is that (don't know why) iolib gives argument " -D…" – this spaces are taken as one of the arguments 2015-11-03T20:32:15Z Posterdati: grovel.lisp? 2015-11-03T20:32:35Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:32:38Z jackdaniel: so the argument doesn't start with "-" and isn't considered as an option of the program (g++) but a file with a very weird name 2015-11-03T20:32:53Z jackdaniel: idk where iolib "creates" the commands, it might be the file grovel 2015-11-03T20:33:27Z Posterdati: problem is c::*cc-flags* 2015-11-03T20:34:06Z Posterdati: CL-USER> c::*cc-flags* 2015-11-03T20:34:06Z Posterdati: " -D_GNU_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -g -O2 -fPIC -D_THREAD_SAFE -Dlinux" 2015-11-03T20:34:07Z jackdaniel: hm 2015-11-03T20:34:27Z jackdaniel: the solution would be splitting the sequence on #\space 2015-11-03T20:35:06Z ozihcs left #lisp 2015-11-03T20:35:09Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-11-03T20:35:39Z jackdaniel: hm,in grovel at line 279 I think 2015-11-03T20:36:42Z Posterdati: yes I noticed that 2015-11-03T20:36:47Z jackdaniel: split-sequence is already imported by the package 2015-11-03T20:37:03Z Posterdati: how can we strip initial spaces? 2015-11-03T20:37:15Z jackdaniel: I think that split sequence will whip them out 2015-11-03T20:37:16Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:37:27Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-03T20:39:32Z jackdaniel: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\ " daniel bah dah" :remove-empty-subseqs t) 2015-11-03T20:41:06Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: could you fix it in iolib and make a pull request? 2015-11-03T20:41:24Z Posterdati: #+ecl (split-sequence:split-sequence c::*cc-flags* :remove-empty-subseqs t) 2015-11-03T20:41:54Z jackdaniel: yeah, that should do (if split-sequence is directly imported in the package you may omit the package specifier) 2015-11-03T20:42:08Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T20:42:27Z Shinmera: If you just need to trim.. (string-left-trim " " string) 2015-11-03T20:42:42Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: parameters needs to be separated 2015-11-03T20:42:49Z jackdaniel: if used like iolib does 2015-11-03T20:42:54Z Shinmera: Sure, but just primitively splitting by space is not a good idea either. 2015-11-03T20:42:56Z jackdaniel: other way it will be passed as one argument 2015-11-03T20:43:04Z Shinmera: You'll need a proper parser to do it Right™ 2015-11-03T20:43:18Z Posterdati: not compiling either 2015-11-03T20:43:47Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: another error? 2015-11-03T20:44:00Z Posterdati: yes 2015-11-03T20:44:10Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:44:44Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158431#1 2015-11-03T20:44:58Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:46:24Z jackdaniel: I don't see loading the swank from the grovel… 2015-11-03T20:46:56Z jackdaniel: have you removed the cache? 2015-11-03T20:47:19Z Posterdati: no, wait 2015-11-03T20:47:30Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:48:37Z Posterdati: I removed iolib from .cache 2015-11-03T20:50:13Z Posterdati: The function IOLIB-GROVEL::SPLIT-SEQUENCE is undefined. 2015-11-03T20:50:32Z jackdaniel: then use the direct specifier (I tought it's imported) 2015-11-03T20:50:36Z jackdaniel: thought 2015-11-03T20:50:53Z jackdaniel: like you originally did 2015-11-03T20:51:14Z Posterdati: ok 2015-11-03T20:51:56Z Posterdati: #+ecl (split-sequence:split-sequence c::*cc-flags* :remove-empty-subseqs t) 2015-11-03T20:52:10Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yeah, for situations when user escapes the space or keeps it in the "". Fortunately it's not the case here (with cc-flags) and split-sequence gives the correct result (list of the arguments) 2015-11-03T20:52:17Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: looks OK to me 2015-11-03T20:52:27Z Posterdati: ok 2015-11-03T20:52:33Z Posterdati: seems compiling 2015-11-03T20:52:37Z jackdaniel: good :-) 2015-11-03T20:52:41Z jackdaniel: I'm leaving in 5 minutes 2015-11-03T20:52:47Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:52:51Z Posterdati: ok 2015-11-03T20:54:00Z Posterdati: ;;; Internal error: 2015-11-03T20:54:01Z Posterdati: ;;; ** There is no package with the name SPLIT-SEQUENCE. 2015-11-03T20:54:06Z jackdaniel: ow 2015-11-03T20:54:32Z jackdaniel: then I had to make mistake - it's not enlisted as dependency 2015-11-03T20:55:10Z Posterdati: there's no split sequence in the asd 2015-11-03T20:55:19Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T20:55:27Z marvi quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-03T20:56:00Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:56:00Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2015-11-03T20:56:00Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:56:13Z jackdaniel: I've found it in base/pkgdcl.lisp (via find-grep) 2015-11-03T20:57:00Z Posterdati: iolib.asd 2015-11-03T20:57:16Z Posterdati: line 91 2015-11-03T20:57:59Z Posterdati: same error 2015-11-03T20:58:00Z Posterdati: grrrrr 2015-11-03T20:58:11Z kaleun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T20:58:22Z jackdaniel: you may either add dependency in system :iolib/grovel on :iolib/base (preferable) or directly on :split-sequence 2015-11-03T20:58:42Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:58:56Z jackdaniel: or no, prefered (used in definitions) is directly requireing split-sequence 2015-11-03T20:59:16Z jackdaniel: add in line 90 :split-sequence after :alexandria 2015-11-03T20:59:24Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T20:59:29Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:00:04Z Posterdati: I did but I've got this 2015-11-03T21:00:18Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158431#1 2015-11-03T21:00:56Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T21:01:01Z jackdaniel: did you remove a cache after modifying asd? 2015-11-03T21:01:18Z jackdaniel: also restart :0 might have the same effect (not sure though) 2015-11-03T21:01:19Z Posterdati: yes 2015-11-03T21:01:52Z jackdaniel: weird, especially that I don't see any form like that in file grovel 2015-11-03T21:02:27Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T21:03:14Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:03:34Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T21:04:20Z Posterdati: not working 2015-11-03T21:05:13Z jackdaniel: derp 2015-11-03T21:05:30Z jackdaniel: it should be #+ecl (split-sequence:split-sequence #\ c::*cc-flags* :remove-empty-subseqs t) 2015-11-03T21:05:37Z jackdaniel: delimiter is a first argument 2015-11-03T21:06:09Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:06:09Z jackdaniel: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\space c::*cc-flags* :remove-empty-subseqs t) 2015-11-03T21:06:12Z jackdaniel: to make it more readable 2015-11-03T21:06:27Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:07:16Z jackdaniel: and it loads fine for me now (after fixes both in iolib.asd file and grovel.lisp) 2015-11-03T21:07:39Z Posterdati: quickloading now 2015-11-03T21:08:01Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:08:15Z Posterdati: compiling... 2015-11-03T21:09:11Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-03T21:09:12Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:09:22Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: may I assume you'll make a PR for iolib project on github if it'll work or should I add it to my todo list? (I'm going to bed now) 2015-11-03T21:09:24Z Posterdati: still compiling... 2015-11-03T21:09:26Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:09:56Z Posterdati: let's talk about it tomorrow, I'm going to bed too :) 2015-11-03T21:13:46Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-03T21:16:54Z euandreh_ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:17:51Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:20:45Z Posterdati: compiling 2015-11-03T21:20:50Z Posterdati: good 2015-11-03T21:22:28Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:22:54Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T21:23:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T21:25:00Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:25:39Z euandreh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T21:26:09Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:26:15Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:26:33Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:29:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:29:51Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: I already made a PR 2015-11-03T21:30:29Z jackdaniel: good night all o/ 2015-11-03T21:30:39Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:31:36Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:31:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:31:43Z Posterdati: ok 2015-11-03T21:31:50Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:31:53Z Posterdati: compilation went ok 2015-11-03T21:32:00Z Posterdati: thanks 2015-11-03T21:32:19Z Posterdati: I hope they fixes ioctl too 2015-11-03T21:32:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T21:33:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:34:50Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T21:36:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:38:02Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:38:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-03T21:39:14Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-03T21:40:49Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-03T21:41:01Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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There is going to be a result for each calling of the function in the loop. 2015-11-03T23:13:02Z drmeister: I thought there was a keyword to loop over a closure that does something like traverse a closed over list. 2015-11-03T23:13:06Z White_Flame: would DO suffice instead? 2015-11-03T23:14:38Z drmeister: With do it would look like (loop do (setf x (foo)) until (null x)) - correct? 2015-11-03T23:14:54Z drmeister: Wrapped in a LET 2015-11-03T23:15:03Z White_Flame: (loop for a = (foo) until (...test a....)) 2015-11-03T23:15:43Z drmeister: Really? For works that way? I did not know that. 2015-11-03T23:16:04Z failproofshark: yep 2015-11-03T23:16:37Z White_Flame: (loop for x = (foo) when (..test a...) return a), to get the final value 2015-11-03T23:16:46Z White_Flame: (loop for a = (foo) when (..test a...) return a), to get the final value 2015-11-03T23:16:59Z drmeister: Thank you - that works 2015-11-03T23:17:14Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-03T23:17:15Z phoe_krk: = 2015-11-03T23:17:21Z phoe_krk: yes, correct and wonderful 2015-11-03T23:17:23Z phoe_krk: wow 2015-11-03T23:17:38Z White_Flame: FORX=1TO10:PRINT"LISP":NEXT 2015-11-03T23:20:33Z White_Flame: oh, when I mentioned DO above, I meant (do ..) instead of (loop ...) 2015-11-03T23:20:50Z White_Flame: but I think loop might be shorter here, not sure 2015-11-03T23:21:15Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:21:50Z drmeister: Is "with" only done once and "for" is done every iteration? 2015-11-03T23:21:51Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-03T23:23:03Z White_Flame: correct 2015-11-03T23:23:12Z White_Flame: "The with construct initializes variables that are local to a loop. The variables are initialized one time only." 2015-11-03T23:24:09Z White_Flame: (do ((a (foo) (foo))) ((..test a...) a)) 2015-11-03T23:24:25Z White_Flame: not as nice as loop imo 2015-11-03T23:25:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:25:51Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-03T23:29:42Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:30:05Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:30:19Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T23:30:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-03T23:32:18Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:33:58Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-03T23:35:06Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-03T23:36:58Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T23:38:13Z mordocai quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-03T23:43:16Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:44:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-03T23:44:39Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-11-03T23:45:06Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:46:12Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T23:46:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:47:53Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:49:21Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-03T23:51:06Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-03T23:55:52Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T00:02:50Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T00:04:41Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-04T00:10:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T00:11:35Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T00:12:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T00:20:02Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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It's a C++ function that returns successive elements of a spanning tree. 2015-11-04T01:29:25Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:29:57Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:30:08Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:30:09Z Xach: drmeister: if you did someting like e.g. (loop for i in list collect (lambda () )) 2015-11-04T01:30:28Z Xach: each lambda would refer to the same i, not to successive values in the list. 2015-11-04T01:34:56Z drmeister: Ohhh. 2015-11-04T01:35:19Z drmeister: Here's what I'm doing: 2015-11-04T01:36:14Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158448 2015-11-04T01:36:20Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T01:37:24Z drmeister: Line 4. Successive calls to (chem:next spanning-loop (lambda (a b) t)) return each successive atom in a spanning tree of a molecule (represented by an undirected graph) 2015-11-04T01:38:34Z drmeister: Lines 10-22 I want every "for" form to be evaluated and assigned to a variable every iteration of the loop 2015-11-04T01:39:41Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:39:52Z drmeister: Whoops, last line has a typo 2015-11-04T01:40:14Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158448#1 2015-11-04T01:40:20Z drmeister: It should return the atom-tree 2015-11-04T01:40:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T01:40:59Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-04T01:41:23Z drmeister: This is me, finally getting a chance to eat some of my nummy dog food and write some code in Cando to build some damn molecules. 2015-11-04T01:42:04Z Bike: very exciting 2015-11-04T01:42:22Z drmeister: And writing loads of typos. 2015-11-04T01:42:28Z drmeister: missing '=' all over the place 2015-11-04T01:43:05Z drmeister: It's nice, I'm doing it in slime and it seems pretty robust. No crashing in an hour of use. 2015-11-04T01:48:33Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:48:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:50:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T01:52:10Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T01:54:08Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:54:11Z euandreh quit 2015-11-04T01:54:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:56:29Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T01:57:02Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T01:59:32Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T02:00:36Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:01:47Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T02:02:26Z drmeister: Hitting C-c C-c compiles typical forms in 1.5 seconds. That's thanks to stassats speed-up of the cclasp compiler by about 3x. Freakin' awesome. 2015-11-04T02:15:53Z drmeister: This is what you get when you build a molecule using an "atom-tree". The molecule is an undirected graph. You pick one root atom to start and you traverse a spanning-tree. You build a collection of nodes where every node points back to the three nodes that precede it that point back up the spanning tree to the root. Then you write in distances, angles and 2015-11-04T02:15:53Z drmeister: dihedral angles that tell each node how far, what angle and what dihedral angle it makes with the previous three nodes respectively. 2015-11-04T02:16:14Z drmeister: Then you start at the root and follow the directions, building each node/atom position from the ones that are already built. 2015-11-04T02:16:14Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/r16m4KG.png 2015-11-04T02:17:06Z drmeister: It looks terrible because the dihedral angles are tricky to get right - so I punted on that for now and just randomly assign them 60, 180, 240 degrees. 2015-11-04T02:17:40Z drmeister: Also, this molecule has lots and lots of fused rings - and those are tricky to build because they have to close properly. 2015-11-04T02:21:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs assoc 2015-11-04T02:21:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 2015-11-04T02:23:39Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:29:58Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T02:38:52Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:41:14Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:42:47Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:43:58Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T02:44:48Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T02:46:22Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:51:11Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-04T02:54:33Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T02:56:29Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:57:04Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:57:26Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:57:32Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T02:59:42Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:00:16Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:02:28Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:02:56Z guaqua quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T03:03:06Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:04:25Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T03:04:30Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:05:06Z micro_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:05:09Z userm: I'm attempted to use create a parenscript library of functions I later want to use in another package, but I can't see how to get it to work. Here's what I've tried boiled down to a simple example https://gist.github.com/anonymous/944c2e99dcf46da4edde 2015-11-04T03:05:58Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:06:04Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:06:30Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:07:20Z micro_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:07:28Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:07:33Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:07:44Z micro_ is now known as Guest52186 2015-11-04T03:08:58Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:08:59Z userm: If both the library and the library user packages are merged under one package, it works properly though. I think it must be package related, but think also I might have misunderstanding how parenscript works 2015-11-04T03:10:28Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:11:37Z pchrist joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:13:05Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:15:24Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:15:40Z pillton: userm: You need to export symbols from the pslibrary package. 2015-11-04T03:16:52Z pillton: Also, I would get in the habit of using strings for symbol names. 2015-11-04T03:17:14Z pillton: Sorry, symbol names in defpackage forms. 2015-11-04T03:19:17Z Xach prefers #:uninterned-symbols 2015-11-04T03:20:05Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T03:20:07Z pillton: I did too until recently. 2015-11-04T03:21:27Z pillton: I was under the impression that by using uninterned symbols that the user's preference for readtable-case would translate naturally to libraries the user had not written. 2015-11-04T03:22:13Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:24:35Z Xach: i do it to avoid being gratuitously incompatible with mlisp 2015-11-04T03:25:07Z pillton: Haha 2015-11-04T03:25:19Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T03:26:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-04T03:26:56Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T03:30:29Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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The CLHS doesn't specify what #\[ means in namestrings. The presence of #\[ in a namestrings makes it a namestring for a physical pathname, which is entirely unspecified by the ANSI Common Lisp standard. It's up to the implementation to specify what it may or may not mean. So you should read the documentation of your specification. (And yes, often implementation 2015-11-04T07:46:01Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell erjoalgo when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-04T07:46:01Z pjb: accept #\\ as an escape in physical pathnames, check with yours). 2015-11-04T07:46:23Z White_Flame: I mentioned nothing about the spec 2015-11-04T07:47:17Z White_Flame: only that he was seeing a directory usage 2015-11-04T07:47:22Z White_Flame: oh, and the spec had some examples 2015-11-04T07:47:51Z White_Flame: which showed that on some filesystems, square brackets can denote dirs 2015-11-04T07:50:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T07:54:45Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T07:56:16Z marvi quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-04T07:56:29Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-04T07:59:21Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:00:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-04T08:03:25Z pjb: White_Flame: it's not directory usage, it's implementation dependant. 2015-11-04T08:03:40Z pjb: With an implementation running on unix, it could be a wildcard. 2015-11-04T08:03:43Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:05:18Z White_Flame: sure, as mentioned by others there, which I didn't have to cover 2015-11-04T08:09:24Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:09:39Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:10:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:10:51Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:13:07Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:14:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T08:18:53Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:19:06Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:20:33Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:20:47Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:25:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:26:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:27:37Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:30:23Z guaqua joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:33:40Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:36:40Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:36:47Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T08:38:10Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:38:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:39:10Z fridim_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T08:39:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:40:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:41:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:43:01Z Walex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T08:43:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:47:13Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T08:47:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:47:32Z harish quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T08:49:57Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:50:39Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:51:27Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T08:54:26Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:55:31Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T08:55:45Z guicho: Updated the reddit description on eazy opencl from a phone. 2015-11-04T08:56:32Z guichoo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:56:33Z guicho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T08:57:30Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:58:52Z balle joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:59:33Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T08:59:33Z guichoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T09:00:56Z guicho: To try eazy-opencl you need the latest cffi wih a fix on base-type of the bitfield 2015-11-04T09:04:37Z guicho: Todays lab seminar on school was about gpu based parallel A*. If lisp based kernel is available this would be a best application of it 2015-11-04T09:06:35Z guichoo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:06:45Z guichoo: Because writing moderately complex code as search algorithms in opencl C or CUDA C is always painful. 2015-11-04T09:08:16Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:10:23Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:14:03Z guichoo: Keywords: GA*, Cockoo jashing 2015-11-04T09:14:09Z guichoo: Hashing 2015-11-04T09:14:32Z guichoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T09:14:44Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:15:15Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:16:23Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:16:30Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:17:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:19:28Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-04T09:20:42Z zerac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:20:53Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:21:48Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:21:49Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:22:29Z zerac joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:22:49Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-04T09:22:58Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:25:58Z yvm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:26:23Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:29:31Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T09:30:25Z aerique quit (Quit: ...) 2015-11-04T09:30:57Z hitecnologys: Can anyone advise me on data structure to use for multicast channels? I need to create some sort of abstract bus inside my program to which components can attach and then send and/or receive messages. 2015-11-04T09:32:10Z hitecnologys: And yeah, the important point it that data is contained inside that bus, not put in every connection local queue. 2015-11-04T09:32:19Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:32:31Z hitecnologys: The latter is trivial to implement but scales not so good. 2015-11-04T09:33:19Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:34:12Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-04T09:35:16Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:37:38Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:38:36Z guicho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T09:38:46Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:40:07Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:42:05Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:42:18Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:43:27Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:43:34Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:44:34Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:45:52Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T09:46:48Z White_Flame: hitecnologys: I think that might be within zeromq's wheelhouse 2015-11-04T09:46:49Z loke: guicho: Are you behing eazy-oepncl? 2015-11-04T09:46:51Z loke: opencl even 2015-11-04T09:47:46Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:47:55Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: right, AMQP is great, but I need two implementations: one that operates locally, in the same memory space, and the other that operates over network (message brokers without a doubt). 2015-11-04T09:48:01Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T09:48:39Z White_Flame: doesn't zeromq do both? 2015-11-04T09:49:16Z White_Flame: or at least, it would be a reasonable basis for adding some back-end functionality that you'd specifically want 2015-11-04T09:49:30Z hitecnologys: Well, unless you mean using library it would still require encoding and decoding of messages which creates additional overhead. 2015-11-04T09:49:58Z hitecnologys: No, I don't want backend functionality. I want to exchange messages between scheduler and threads. =P 2015-11-04T09:50:09Z White_Flame: hmm, right, you don't need byte buffers for in-process comms 2015-11-04T09:51:10Z White_Flame: how many threads? it sounds like you think inserting the message into each receiver queue would be too much overhead? 2015-11-04T09:52:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T09:52:22Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T09:52:29Z pjb: Write specifications! 2015-11-04T09:52:44Z hitecnologys: I don't plan on starting more than (CPU_CORES_N+1) threads so there should really be not that much overhead on pushing message into each thread's queue. 2015-11-04T09:54:15Z White_Flame: and of course, if it's all immutable and within the same image, that's just pushing a reference, not copying the entire object anyway 2015-11-04T09:54:59Z White_Flame: so "data is contained inside that bus, not put in every connection local queue" may or may not be met, depending on your definition 2015-11-04T09:55:15Z hitecnologys: pjb: I have to abstract entities: a channel and a port. Ideally, I need to be able to connect as many ports as I want to a channel and have data send or received there. When data is send, all other ports but the one that sent it receive the message when they pull for it. Besides, I'd like to try to evade iterating over all the ports and sending data there (i.e. channel is immutable and port can connect and 2015-11-04T09:55:18Z hitecnologys: disconnect as they like). 2015-11-04T09:56:04Z hitecnologys: ports can connect* 2015-11-04T09:56:23Z hitecnologys: Argh, two abstract*. 2015-11-04T09:56:24Z White_Flame: sounds very similar to our internal erlang node support lib I wrote some years back 2015-11-04T09:57:18Z hitecnologys: I need all that hassle so that I can then, if I want, replace those entities by another implementations that operate over whatever carrier network I need. 2015-11-04T09:58:07Z White_Flame: fanning out copies really isn't expensive, but if you're looking to reduce latency, you might want to use a shared sliding window into an array of messages, with each reader having their own cursor into the queue. However, then you have to signal each reader that something's ready anyway. We didn't implement that scheme, since it didn't seem that it would yield great latency benefits 2015-11-04T09:58:09Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: do you still have the sources or it's not FOSS? 2015-11-04T09:58:40Z White_Flame: one of those "we'd like to release as FOSS" schemes, however there are other CL messaging/mailbox libs that may or may not be already out ther 2015-11-04T09:59:08Z White_Flame: having built a bunch of utilities, we really want to normalize with what's already out there, instead of being our own island of tech 2015-11-04T09:59:41Z hitecnologys: I see. 2015-11-04T10:00:22Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:00:26Z White_Flame: but we're doing a lot of AWS stuff right now, and this is almost identical to a SNS + SQS setup 2015-11-04T10:00:47Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T10:00:49Z White_Flame: where you send to a SNS broadcast, which performs fanout to multiple SQS listener message queues 2015-11-04T10:01:23Z White_Flame: inside a single process, that fanout can either be on the sender thread, or an independent worker thread 2015-11-04T10:01:25Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:02:15Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T10:02:27Z guicho_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:02:34Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T10:02:42Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:05:03Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:05:05Z guicho_: loke: behing? 2015-11-04T10:05:25Z loke: guicho_: "behind" :-) 2015-11-04T10:05:42Z guicho_: ok, then yes. 2015-11-04T10:05:55Z White_Flame: hitecnologys: one thing that needs to be made clear is if this is 1-to-many, or many-to-many, and what does it mean for someone to write into the channel? if it's 1-to-many, and the "one" writes, then all receive the message. but if one of the "many" writes, is that a broadcast to everybody, or just to the "one"? 2015-11-04T10:06:20Z loke: guicho_: I just filed this bug report. Do you know the cause or is there any other information I can provide? 2015-11-04T10:06:20Z loke: https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-opencl/issues/26 2015-11-04T10:06:21Z White_Flame: we tend to use single-directional queues. makes this much easier 2015-11-04T10:06:37Z loke uses rabbitmq for my messaging needs. I like it a lot. 2015-11-04T10:06:43Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: it's mostly many-to-many since threads need to be able to signal to each other. 2015-11-04T10:07:09Z tsoutseki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T10:07:32Z White_Flame: so basically pure broadcast among peers 2015-11-04T10:07:37Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: I though about giving each message an ID and screwing that "sender should not receive" part. Makes the solution easier but adds overhead. 2015-11-04T10:07:41Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: yeah. 2015-11-04T10:07:49Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:07:50Z hitecnologys: thought* 2015-11-04T10:09:06Z guicho_: loke: that's exactly what I added to the reddit . it requires latest CFFI, which I forgot to mention in the readme. 2015-11-04T10:09:11Z guicho_: https://ja.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/3r8pew/opencl_binding_for_common_lisp/ 2015-11-04T10:10:24Z loke: guicho_: I see. Thanks. 2015-11-04T10:10:40Z loke: I presume the relevant cffi version will be included in the next ql? 2015-11-04T10:11:48Z guicho_: nah it doesn't. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015_11_01_archive.html 2015-11-04T10:12:29Z guicho_: December release would be more likely. 2015-11-04T10:12:33Z loke: tried with latest cffi. No more error. Thanks! 2015-11-04T10:12:50Z loke: guicho_: Yeah, I presume december will be the next release 2015-11-04T10:13:55Z guicho_: btw, which opencl & cards are you using? 2015-11-04T10:14:03Z guicho_: GPU cards 2015-11-04T10:14:10Z loke: guicho_: I have some nvidia card :-) 2015-11-04T10:14:21Z loke: Quadro K600 2015-11-04T10:14:35Z loke: GK107GL 2015-11-04T10:14:37Z loke: apparently 2015-11-04T10:14:38Z loke: :-) 2015-11-04T10:14:46Z guicho_: that sounds very good, since I only tested it on old Radeon 2015-11-04T10:14:57Z guicho_: and on CPU + POCL 2015-11-04T10:15:01Z loke: Well, it's not new. At least a year (probably more) old. 2015-11-04T10:15:12Z loke: But I have some K80's here 2015-11-04T10:15:24Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: so, you think I should make my channels 1-to-1 and then add something like switch to enable many-to-many? 2015-11-04T10:15:35Z loke: I have a machine with 2 K80's in it 2015-11-04T10:15:36Z loke: https://www.nvidia.com/object/tesla-servers.html 2015-11-04T10:15:55Z loke: 4992 cuda cores. That one is pretty neat. 2015-11-04T10:16:09Z loke: (*2) 2015-11-04T10:16:09Z White_Flame: no, I think you already have a unidrectional system. messages go to the channel identity, and get stuffed into mailboxes per listener 2015-11-04T10:16:11Z guicho_: my SAPPHIRE HD5770 1G is released in 2009. 6 yrs old. 2015-11-04T10:16:31Z White_Flame: (regardless of how the actual underlying data structures behave) 2015-11-04T10:17:10Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: ah, I see. 2015-11-04T10:18:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:19:12Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: so, when a port connects, we create a queue for it and when it needs to send data we put in all other queues but the one that belongs to the sender? 2015-11-04T10:19:27Z White_Flame: sure 2015-11-04T10:19:54Z hitecnologys: Alright, since I can't think of anything better this might work. Thanks. 2015-11-04T10:19:55Z White_Flame: there's a decision as to whether adding/removing a port is a message sent to the channel, or is done purely asynchronously 2015-11-04T10:20:32Z White_Flame: that mostly has to do with how messages are cut off when you disconnect, depending on if incoming messages trigger a lambda, or are read/polled 2015-11-04T10:20:44Z loke: OK, this is funny... The K80 has almost 5000 cude cores. My workstation K600 has... 96. 2015-11-04T10:21:04Z White_Flame: if you have a lot of messages, be sure that you pull the entire queue as 1 atomic thread operation, then drain that queue message by message locally 2015-11-04T10:21:09Z loke: Somehow I don't thinkmy workstation can compete with the k80 2015-11-04T10:21:25Z pocket quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-04T10:22:40Z guicho_: Massively Parallel A* Search on a GPU Y Zhou, J Zeng - Twenty-Ninth AAAI Conference on Artificial Intelligence, 2015 - aaai.org 2015-11-04T10:22:51Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: why should I pull the entire queue if pushing and reading is non-blocking? 2015-11-04T10:23:03Z guicho_: oops I paste something 2015-11-04T10:23:58Z guicho_: well, first successful application of GPU to memory-intensive combinatorial search 2015-11-04T10:24:16Z loke: guicho_: Do you have any example code? 2015-11-04T10:24:32Z loke: guicho_: I'm reading the readme, but there is not much in explanaing how the library is used. 2015-11-04T10:24:51Z White_Flame: hitecnologys: because it's a cross-thread operation. Only hit the shared buffer if the local buffer is drained 2015-11-04T10:25:05Z White_Flame: far less contention on the locks 2015-11-04T10:25:19Z White_Flame: and easily implemented via compare-and-swap 2015-11-04T10:25:43Z guicho_: loke: not really, sorry. its rather a background work. 2015-11-04T10:26:14Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: I tend not to use locks. The library I'm writing is focused on usage of transactional memory. 2015-11-04T10:26:28Z White_Flame: ok, I've not gone down that route 2015-11-04T10:26:51Z guicho_: it's forked from cl-opencl-3b. I am translating its examples to the new API. 2015-11-04T10:26:56Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: the only part where locks kick in is the BT thread management part (e.g. JOING-THREAD to wait until thread stops). 2015-11-04T10:27:20Z hitecnologys: JOIN* 2015-11-04T10:27:21Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:27:27Z loke: guicho_: do you have some minimal example? I mean very minimal. 2015-11-04T10:27:35Z loke: Just test code would be good enough. 2015-11-04T10:28:02Z guicho_: the tests contain helloworld example. 2015-11-04T10:28:09Z guicho_: under t/ 2015-11-04T10:28:52Z guicho_: it runs during the test 2015-11-04T10:29:07Z White_Flame: hitecnologys: how much overhead are you adding with transactional memory, and is the performance of the messaging layer really going to matter then? 2015-11-04T10:29:44Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: I'm aiming the STM-capable processors so the overhead is negligible. 2015-11-04T10:30:09Z loke: guicho_: OK, I seem to have some driver problem. GET-PLATFORM-IDS throws PLATFORM-NOT-FOUND-KHR 2015-11-04T10:30:12Z loke: Is that a correct analysis? 2015-11-04T10:31:48Z guicho_: ls /etc/OpenCL/vendors/ results? 2015-11-04T10:33:05Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:34:01Z guicho_: I'm going offline now, will be back in an hour 2015-11-04T10:34:23Z loke: guicho_: There is a file there: nvidia.icd 2015-11-04T10:35:49Z guicho_: does your other opencl applications work, if any? 2015-11-04T10:37:04Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T10:37:06Z guicho_: for example, clinfo 2015-11-04T10:38:10Z guicho_ quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-04T10:38:22Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:38:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:39:04Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:40:40Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T10:41:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T10:42:58Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T10:43:25Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-04T10:43:32Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T10:45:35Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:46:50Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T10:47:27Z loke: guicho_: I don't have clinfo 2015-11-04T10:47:29Z loke: installing it now 2015-11-04T10:48:19Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:52:36Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:56:19Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T10:56:35Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:57:07Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T10:58:36Z guicho: loke: i might not be signed in since i am out, but im constantly checking the irc log , so reply at any time 2015-11-04T10:58:57Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T11:00:29Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T11:02:16Z pyon quit (Quit: restart) 2015-11-04T11:03:18Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:04:21Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T11:05:24Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'm experiencing some weird trouble using trivial-benchmark. Can you try evaluating the following form? (let ((timer (benchmark:make-timer))) (loop repeat 5000 for uuid = (uuid:make-v4-uuid) do (benchmark:with-sampling (timer) (uuid:uuid-to-byte-array uuid))) (benchmark:report timer)) 2015-11-04T11:05:38Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: that needs uuid loaded as well. 2015-11-04T11:08:05Z loke: guicho: I just tested. It tells me I have 0 cards. 2015-11-04T11:08:11Z loke: So clearly a driver issue 2015-11-04T11:08:28Z guicho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T11:08:31Z loke: guicho: I think perhaps the call should not thow an error in that case, but rather return nil? 2015-11-04T11:08:50Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:10:30Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:11:37Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-04T11:14:26Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T11:14:59Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:19:54Z huza joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:20:41Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:23:32Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T11:29:19Z hitecnologys: Are there any implementations of tries on CL? 2015-11-04T11:29:22Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:29:48Z jackdaniel: tries? 2015-11-04T11:30:11Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: it's a variant of radix tree. 2015-11-04T11:30:16Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie 2015-11-04T11:30:24Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-11-04T11:30:58Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2015-11-04T11:31:05Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: they perform better than hash tables in some cases and provide O(1) lookup, insertion and deletion. They're also theoretically iterable. 2015-11-04T11:33:30Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T11:33:43Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T11:35:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:37:35Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: And.. what's the trouble? 2015-11-04T11:38:10Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: it works for you? It fails saying "Vector length (5000) doesn't match declared length (8007)." on my machine. 2015-11-04T11:38:18Z Shinmera: Works just fine. 2015-11-04T11:38:37Z Shinmera: Are you on latest QL and everything? 2015-11-04T11:38:38Z hitecnologys: That's the "weird trouble" part. 2015-11-04T11:38:42Z hitecnologys: Yep. 2015-11-04T11:38:48Z hitecnologys: Not the lastest SBCL, though. 2015-11-04T11:38:50Z Shinmera: hm. Don't know. 2015-11-04T11:38:51Z hitecnologys: latest* 2015-11-04T11:39:15Z hitecnologys: Oh, nope, I don't use latest QL. 2015-11-04T11:39:18Z hitecnologys: =P 2015-11-04T11:39:22Z hitecnologys: Lemme update. 2015-11-04T11:39:26Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:39:29Z Shinmera: I didn't change it recently, but hey. 2015-11-04T11:39:54Z hitecnologys: WOAH 2015-11-04T11:40:23Z hitecnologys: Finally! I've been waiting so long for this! beta.quicklisp.org has been blocked by my ISP! 2015-11-04T11:40:30Z hitecnologys: … 2015-11-04T11:40:38Z Shinmera: Wait what? Are you sure? 2015-11-04T11:42:23Z hitecnologys: Heh, it's one of IP addresses. 2015-11-04T11:42:45Z hitecnologys: But nevertheless, one if cloudflare's IP addresses made it into the black list. 2015-11-04T11:42:45Z jackdaniel: I'd block mafia too if I could ;-) 2015-11-04T11:43:14Z ajiva joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:43:26Z ajiva: Hi :) 2015-11-04T11:43:32Z jackdaniel: hello \o 2015-11-04T11:44:12Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T11:44:21Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T11:44:52Z hitecnologys: Anyway, enjoy: https://img.hitecnologys.org/blocked.png. From time to time I also get 404 in QL client since it resolves to the blocked IP. =P 2015-11-04T11:45:07Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:45:39Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:46:44Z hitecnologys wonders how long does he have until white lists 2015-11-04T11:46:45Z jackdaniel: is there any explanation "why"? 2015-11-04T11:49:06Z hitecnologys: jackdaniel: I don't remember the address of that Great Banned Sites List but I'm sure it's for drug dealing… For real, they've probably banned a site that's been using Cloudflare, possibly by URL, but my ISP doesn't have DPI-capable equipment so they ban by IP addresses. 2015-11-04T11:49:34Z jackdaniel: mhm 2015-11-04T11:49:51Z jackdaniel: relay your ql update through the tor ^_^ 2015-11-04T11:51:29Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-04T11:51:33Z hitecnologys: I have VPN host in another country and link though ISP that doesn't filter traffic so there should be no problem. 2015-11-04T11:52:21Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: even with the latest stuff it fails. 2015-11-04T11:52:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:54:42Z kilfer` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T11:55:00Z kilfer` quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T11:56:25Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Weird. 2015-11-04T11:56:31Z Shinmera: Can you give me a trace? 2015-11-04T11:56:40Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sec. 2015-11-04T11:56:55Z hitecnologys: Heh, the line work on another machine. 2015-11-04T11:57:02Z hitecnologys: The form, I mean. 2015-11-04T11:57:36Z Shinmera: Could still be an error on my part. 2015-11-04T11:57:57Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: https://storage.hitecnologys.org/trace.txt 2015-11-04T11:58:10Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:04:58Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I have no idea where that comes from. The vector that stores samples is adjustable, and I never declare either of those lengths anywhere. 2015-11-04T12:05:10Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. 2015-11-04T12:05:17Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'll try updating SBCL then. 2015-11-04T12:05:19Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The only thing that even vaguely looks like it might be the cause is the MAP call inside the :deviation compute method. 2015-11-04T12:05:33Z Shinmera: But even then.. yeah- I don't know. Sorry. 2015-11-04T12:05:52Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'm not sure how MAP can cause any of this either. 2015-11-04T12:09:12Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:10:23Z tetheno quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T12:11:03Z atgnag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T12:13:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T12:18:37Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:19:38Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:19:46Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-04T12:24:55Z scymtym: Shinmera: i think (map (type-of THING) … THING) can fail if THING is a vector with a fill-pointer because the length in the type and the length returned by LENGTH are not equal 2015-11-04T12:25:28Z scymtym: replacing TYPE-OF with CLASS-OF should work 2015-11-04T12:26:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:26:34Z pjb: scymtym: I fail to see how. (subtypep (type-of x) (class-of x)). 2015-11-04T12:27:41Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:30:24Z scymtym: pjb: TYPE-OF can return something like (vector t 5). when the vector has e.g. 3 as its fill-pointer, it is considered to be a sequence of length 3. MAP cannot turn that into a vector of type (vector t 5) but it can produce a vector 2015-11-04T12:30:51Z Shinmera: scymtym: But map should stop before the fill-pointer, no? 2015-11-04T12:31:19Z Shinmera: I'm not using any operators that would ignore the fill-pointer to my knowledge. 2015-11-04T12:31:24Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-11-04T12:31:45Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:33:08Z scymtym: Shinmera: iiuc, that's the point: the fill-pointer makes the LENGTH of the vector shorter than the length in the result of TYPE-OF 2015-11-04T12:33:45Z Shinmera: So is MAP complaining that I'm not filling the entire result vector? 2015-11-04T12:34:28Z scymtym: well, that the input sequence is shorter than the length of the requested result type, but i think that is the problem, yes 2015-11-04T12:35:24Z Shinmera: Ok. I'll try replacing it with CLASS-OF then, but since I can't reproduce it.. 2015-11-04T12:35:34Z DruidGreeneyes quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T12:36:35Z scymtym: i could reproduce it. maybe because i do everything with (debug 3) (safety 3) (speed 0) 2015-11-04T12:37:36Z Shinmera: I have debug 3, but the rest on default. 2015-11-04T12:38:09Z Shinmera: Ok, fix pushed. 2015-11-04T12:39:08Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:39:12Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-04T12:40:11Z scymtym: Shinmera: smallest example i can come up with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158472 2015-11-04T12:40:12Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:40:12Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: so, it was your fault? 2015-11-04T12:40:33Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Depends on you put it, I suppose. But I'm willing to take the blame. 2015-11-04T12:41:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I don't want you to. I was just wondering whether it was my configuration that caused it. 2015-11-04T12:41:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-04T12:41:56Z Shinmera: I suppose this bit is what's problematic: "The result sequence is as long as the shortest of the sequences. The consequences are undefined if the result of applying function to the successive elements of the sequences cannot be contained in a sequence of the type given by result-type." 2015-11-04T12:42:13Z Shinmera: Since the type in this case contained length information as well. 2015-11-04T12:44:09Z hitecnologys: I see. 2015-11-04T12:44:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T12:44:51Z Shinmera: But it is arguable whether "cannot be contained" is really applicable in a case where the type specifies a longer sequence. 2015-11-04T12:48:40Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:51:36Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T12:51:58Z pjb: Ah indeed, for map, "The result sequence is as long as the shortest of the sequences.". So class-of should do. 2015-11-04T12:52:33Z pjb: Shinmera: map doesn't even try to "fill". It's a pure type mismatch. We were thinking of map-into. 2015-11-04T12:52:43Z scymtym: pjb: that's what i was trying to say. sorry if it didn't come out right 2015-11-04T12:55:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T12:56:01Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T13:02:38Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:04:34Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:05:59Z papachan: pjb: i finally understand my error yersterday 2015-11-04T13:07:03Z papachan: Xach pjb i was adding a test file to my new project which make (ql:quickload "example") failed 2015-11-04T13:07:17Z papachan: and it seems after remove this file 2015-11-04T13:07:28Z Xach: papachan: interesting. the error message didn't hint at that. 2015-11-04T13:07:54Z papachan: the project stay with a weird when i try to load it again from sbcl 2015-11-04T13:08:00Z papachan: yeah 2015-11-04T13:08:06Z papachan: Xach: but now it work fine 2015-11-04T13:08:13Z Xach: All is well that ends well 2015-11-04T13:08:18Z preacherAKAnd is now known as ctyp 2015-11-04T13:08:19Z papachan: i do not import again this test file 2015-11-04T13:08:28Z ctyp is now known as preacherAKAnd 2015-11-04T13:08:49Z papachan: have to understand how i can clean a project if soemthing happen again 2015-11-04T13:09:37Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:10:22Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:10:34Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:14:45Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:16:59Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:18:14Z pjb: papachan: image based development is essentially a non-functional process, where mutation is used to update the running image. Therefore it is very difficult to "undo" or "clean" anything, without restarting the image. There are things that can be done to undo or forget what's been done, but there are few tools to do good and nice cleanups easily. 2015-11-04T13:21:31Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:21:33Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:23:18Z pjb: papachan: (ql:register-local-projects) rebuilds the local projects system index. Usually it's done automatically, but there are sometimes situations where you need it to take into account a new local project. I believe that asdf will reload the system definition file when you operate on it, but if not you can always reload them yourself. On the other hand, unchanged compiled systems are not necessarily recompiled (notably if you 2015-11-04T13:23:18Z pjb: change *features*), so you may want to rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/* before reloading them with asdf or quicklisp. 2015-11-04T13:25:40Z pjb: Now, your own systems may not be idempotent or the changes you made may not override old definitions. In general it doesn't matter much (eg. if you have an old variable with a name you don't use anymore, it is not too bad). But there's at least one thing which can be a problem: methods. You may have old methods that remains in the call-next-method chain that you don't want anymore. You can remove them one by one with find-method and 2015-11-04T13:25:40Z pjb: remove-method. (There's a useful undefmethod macro to do it if you still have the source of the method around). 2015-11-04T13:26:59Z pjb: Or, you may un-intern the symbol naming the generic function before reloading it, so that the new methods are attached to the new generic function, and not to the old. In the same vein, you can delete whole packages (but only once they are not used anymore, so you may want a recursive package delete such as com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:delete-packages. 2015-11-04T13:27:54Z pjb: Of course, uninterning or deleting packages won't prevent existing functions and threads refering them to keep refering them, which might be a problem. Then you will have to clean up your threads and remove references to those functions (or other data structures in general). 2015-11-04T13:28:28Z pjb: There are no tools to do all this automatically, you will have to develop them, or to do the cleanup yourself in a ad-hoc manner, specific to your system. 2015-11-04T13:29:39Z pjb: Soon enought it becomes much easier to just type ,restart RET and M-r quickload RET RET to reboot the image and reload your system from scratch. 2015-11-04T13:30:42Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:34:11Z wuzzz joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:34:32Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:34:34Z tetheno quit (Quit: Oh, jolly good show!) 2015-11-04T13:34:42Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:36:55Z tetheno quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T13:37:06Z wuzzz: #Shinmera trying to switch to using qtools, not sure how to get started. I'm trying to load the examples and I get an error, no package named cl+qt. how should I load the example? 2015-11-04T13:37:33Z Shinmera: Which example? 2015-11-04T13:37:33Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:38:57Z wuzzz: the opengl one, but we can do the helloworld one if its simpler to debug 2015-11-04T13:39:44Z Shinmera: The error doesn't make sense to me either way, since the qtools system provides the cl+qt package. 2015-11-04T13:39:59Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:40:39Z Shinmera: Where does the error occur? 2015-11-04T13:40:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:42:14Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:43:21Z wuzzz: when I go to load the example lisp file, like ccl32 --load opengl.lisp 2015-11-04T13:43:35Z Shinmera: Well duh. That's not how it works. 2015-11-04T13:43:54Z Shinmera: You have to load the system through asdf/quicklisp. 2015-11-04T13:44:02Z wuzzz: sorry then I don't know what you mean about "where" its happening 2015-11-04T13:44:15Z wuzzz: oh. 2015-11-04T13:44:19Z Shinmera: `(ql:quickload :qtools-opengl)` 2015-11-04T13:45:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:47:01Z wuzzz: I get an exception on foreign stack when running qtools-opengl:main on ccl32 on windows 2015-11-04T13:47:15Z wuzzz: qtools-helloworld works though. 2015-11-04T13:47:26Z Shinmera: Hrm. 2015-11-04T13:47:38Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:47:47Z Shinmera: That might be something related to OpenGL. I can't tell just by that. 2015-11-04T13:47:51Z wuzzz: i should say, using 1.10 ccl release 2015-11-04T13:48:01Z wuzzz: ok. 2015-11-04T13:48:29Z Shinmera: Unfortunately working with Qt means a lot of things can happen on the C++ side, which is notoriously difficult to debug. 2015-11-04T13:48:43Z Shinmera: Especially on Windows, where I don't really have much experience. 2015-11-04T13:49:06Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:49:12Z wuzzz: yea. I wish I didn't have to deploy things for windows, it would make life easier 2015-11-04T13:50:00Z wuzzz: I'm hoping that all the effort microsoft is going through to alienate their users will result in less market share, but a dev can only dream. 2015-11-04T13:50:05Z Shinmera: I did deploy an OpenGL Qt app on Windows and did get it to work relatively hassle-less. 2015-11-04T13:50:35Z Shinmera: But I only tested it with SBCL, so who knows. 2015-11-04T13:51:40Z wuzzz: I'll get by without opengl for now. I'll pick it up with sbcl later 2015-11-04T13:51:43Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T13:51:54Z Shinmera: Alright. Sorry that I can't be of more help! 2015-11-04T13:52:10Z Shinmera: The documentation contains most of what I do know about things (minus some experimental features) 2015-11-04T13:52:16Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:52:21Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:55:23Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:56:34Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:56:34Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T13:58:03Z Seeq quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T13:58:40Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T13:59:49Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T14:01:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:03:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:03:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:04:01Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:04:14Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:04:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:07:11Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:09:55Z wuzzz: #Shinmera: looks like there is a threading issue when using ccl. I used the asdf build-op and got the bin directory but when I run my executable I get errors about threads 2015-11-04T14:10:04Z wuzzz: I'll try this with sbcl 2015-11-04T14:10:20Z Shinmera: Hrm. 2015-11-04T14:11:10Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:11:43Z Shinmera: Well, CCL Windows testing is definitely on my todo now 2015-11-04T14:11:53Z Shinmera: Not sure when I can get to it 2015-11-04T14:11:53Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:13:26Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:14:55Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:14:55Z _cosmona` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T14:15:08Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:15:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:15:51Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:16:37Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:17:07Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:17:35Z wuzzz: so I guess qt-program-op is responsible for the salient activity when asdf:operate build-op is invoked? 2015-11-04T14:17:41Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:18:03Z Shinmera: A bunch of the activity is just loading qtools and your application. 2015-11-04T14:18:10Z Shinmera: Most of it, actually. 2015-11-04T14:18:11Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T14:18:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:18:54Z Shinmera: The rest of what's happening is only this: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/deploy.lisp#L153 2015-11-04T14:19:17Z s1n4 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-04T14:19:44Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:21:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:21:16Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:21:20Z wuzzz: thanks. I bet this is just a last mile tweak, I have qt lisp code that I can make an image with and not have the threading problem, and the only difference is relying on qtools instead of commonqt and qt-libs. I'll see if I can't hunt this down 2015-11-04T14:22:01Z warweasle: wuzzz: Are you making a GUI application in lisp? 2015-11-04T14:22:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:22:20Z Shinmera: wuzzz: Actually I think I know what might be going on 2015-11-04T14:22:39Z Shinmera: But I need to find time to test and confirm it. 2015-11-04T14:22:55Z wuzzz: warweale: yes 2015-11-04T14:23:29Z wuzzz: Shinmera: I have to go afk, if you want to describe it here I can also make headway when I get back 2015-11-04T14:23:45Z wuzzz: warweasle: yes 2015-11-04T14:24:19Z warweasle: wuzzz: Awesome. I dream of lisp going mainstream. 2015-11-04T14:24:52Z wuzzz: i was going to try to replace the uiop dump-image call with an explicit call to the ccl functions for that and see how far I get 2015-11-04T14:25:24Z wuzzz: warweasle: be the change you wish to see in the world 2015-11-04T14:25:30Z wuzzz: bbl 2015-11-04T14:25:55Z Shinmera: wuzzz: The only part in which Qtools deals with threads is actually handled by trivial-main-thread, which is only different on CCL due to CCL's odd behaviour regarding main threads. 2015-11-04T14:26:11Z Shinmera: However, that should not be invoked until after the image is restored, so I'm not sure why it would be triggered here. 2015-11-04T14:26:25Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:26:40Z Shinmera: Which is why I need to actually investigate to say for sure. 2015-11-04T14:28:03Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:29:05Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T14:29:29Z cosarara left #lisp 2015-11-04T14:29:51Z cosarara joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:32:46Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:33:16Z kp666_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:35:04Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T14:35:24Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:36:00Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:36:10Z radioninja quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:42:13Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:44:02Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:44:48Z madmax88 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:45:16Z madmax88: I have an odd question: can the reader macro system represent any CFG? 2015-11-04T14:45:19Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T14:46:07Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-04T14:48:35Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:50:56Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:51:10Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:51:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:51:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:51:46Z madmax88 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:51:59Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:53:44Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix: do you know of some example for cffi structs that deal with bitfields? 2015-11-04T14:54:15Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T14:55:26Z lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 2015-11-04T14:55:55Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:56:43Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-04T14:59:58Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-04T14:59:59Z papachan: pjb: wow thank you for your explaination 2015-11-04T15:00:02Z papachan: great 2015-11-04T15:00:47Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: I don't think I ever used that 2015-11-04T15:00:50Z fe[nl]ix: try the test suite 2015-11-04T15:01:08Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:01:54Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix: meanwhile I realized that there's a bitfield in cffi that is something else. what I've meant is c int's with the : syntax (IIRC), bit-sized integers in structs that one may encounter here and there 2015-11-04T15:01:59Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: I'm out of context so forgive if unrelated - binary-types is a very nice lisp library for dealing with the structures of various kind 2015-11-04T15:02:26Z attila_lendvai looks it up 2015-11-04T15:02:32Z isBEKaml quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T15:03:30Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: there's also this: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles 2015-11-04T15:03:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:04:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:04:32Z jackdaniel: never used it. Binary-types was perfect for my needs so didn't bother looking for another one 2015-11-04T15:05:48Z Zhivago: Note that : x doesn't introduce bit sized integers, but instead produces accessors into the provided integer type for those bits. 2015-11-04T15:06:16Z jackdaniel: hm, binary-types lets you to define binary structures to slurp them from the stream too 2015-11-04T15:08:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:10:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:12:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:15:51Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:19:17Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:20:10Z userm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:21:39Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:22:53Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:25:00Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: hey, you know what? I've rehashed this whole many-to-many channel idea and I think I don't really need it multicast. Since scheduler has to be able to send some messages directly to threads, it will have to maintain another channel so I thought why even bother having multicast channel when we can have one-to-one link with scheduler and then have it broadcast messages to the rest of threads, if 2015-11-04T15:25:03Z hitecnologys: necessary? That's what I plan on doing. 2015-11-04T15:26:54Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:28:10Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:28:15Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:31:39Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:31:48Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:31:52Z euphoriaa quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-04T15:31:58Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:31:58Z euphoriaa quit (Changing host) 2015-11-04T15:31:58Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:33:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:34:59Z reb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T15:38:26Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T15:38:35Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T15:39:28Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:43:26Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:44:44Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:46:00Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:47:09Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T15:47:33Z cmack quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T15:49:24Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T15:49:26Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:49:32Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:49:33Z reb` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:49:57Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:50:10Z reb`: b 2015-11-04T15:50:42Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:52:49Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T15:54:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:55:44Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:56:19Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:56:39Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T15:57:27Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:00:07Z zyoung joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:00:39Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T16:00:39Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T16:01:04Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:02:23Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:04:49Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:05:42Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T16:06:56Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:08:47Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:09:29Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:15:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:15:57Z reb` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:17:50Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:18:52Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T16:19:30Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:19:42Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:20:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:21:09Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:22:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:23:00Z reb`` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:23:16Z pjb: minion: memo for madmax88: reader macros are implemented in Lisp, therefore they can parse any type of grammar up to Type-0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy 2015-11-04T16:23:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell madmax88 when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-04T16:27:14Z reb``` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:29:31Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:29:51Z reb`` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:30:38Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:31:25Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:32:03Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:32:03Z wuzzz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:32:13Z myrkraverk: Can I configure linedit to (quit) on C-d at the start of a line (like many other shells do) ? 2015-11-04T16:32:39Z myrkraverk: I'm using it for SBCL in the terminal. 2015-11-04T16:32:51Z pjb: I hear there's a file like ~/.inputrc or perhaps even ~/.inputrc where that could be done. 2015-11-04T16:32:58Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:33:15Z myrkraverk: hmm, ok. 2015-11-04T16:34:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T16:34:46Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:34:53Z kami: Hello #lisp 2015-11-04T16:35:00Z myrkraverk: Really? Google seems to tell me that ~/.inputrc is bash (or gnu readline) specific. 2015-11-04T16:35:16Z kami: AeroNotix: how functional is your cl-zk? 2015-11-04T16:35:20Z myrkraverk: Or maybe linedit is a wrapper around gnu readline... 2015-11-04T16:35:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:35:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:37:46Z Xach: linedit does not wrap readline 2015-11-04T16:37:50Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:38:06Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:38:26Z myrkraverk: Ok. Is there any way to configure linedit? So far, it's manual seems to be somewhat absent. 2015-11-04T16:38:49Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: I believe lineedit has examples in the source tarball 2015-11-04T16:39:01Z myrkraverk: Hmm, ok. 2015-11-04T16:39:02Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:39:27Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:41:08Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T16:41:19Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:42:16Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:43:25Z myrkraverk: I don't find it, quickly. 2015-11-04T16:45:04Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T16:45:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:46:19Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:46:25Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:48:47Z mordocai: myrkraverk: Per https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/linedit/linedit/tree/master readme, add :eof-quits t to your install-repl config. 2015-11-04T16:49:18Z myrkraverk: Ah, thanks. 2015-11-04T16:50:06Z mordocai: myrkraverk: Something I don't like about that is it still asks if you are sure, but I don't see a config to make it not do that. 2015-11-04T16:50:35Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:50:53Z mordocai: myrkraverk: https://gitlab.com/mordocai/dotfiles/blob/master/.sbclrc in case you aren't sure what I meant 2015-11-04T16:51:09Z myrkraverk: I got it, thanks c; 2015-11-04T16:51:20Z myrkraverk: Yeah, the asking is annoying. 2015-11-04T16:51:31Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:52:37Z myrkraverk: I just checked the source, there's no provision to not ask to quit. 2015-11-04T16:53:02Z myrkraverk: And I'm not in a mood to fix that now. 2015-11-04T16:53:18Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:53:41Z mordocai: Yeah, that should be an extra option. Looks like linedit is pretty much dead though, so not sure who would approve pull requests even if you made one. 2015-11-04T16:54:28Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-04T16:55:05Z Xach: sharplispers could adopt it 2015-11-04T16:55:08Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T16:56:01Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: sorry, I mistaken lineedit with libedit 2015-11-04T16:56:18Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-04T16:56:37Z myrkraverk: No worries. 2015-11-04T16:56:48Z dwchandler: so, https://github.com/nikodemus/linedit seems more recent 2015-11-04T16:57:47Z dwchandler: not long ago I applied https://github.com/nikodemus/linedit/commit/bb35a200775802bd63ae42356f17b2db237180d0 to my local machine 2015-11-04T16:58:15Z mordocai: Where does quicklisp get it? 2015-11-04T16:58:22Z mordocai looks himself 2015-11-04T16:59:02Z mordocai: It gets it from gitlab 2015-11-04T16:59:06Z vsync___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:00:37Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T17:18:49Z dwchandler: otwieracz: What OS? 2015-11-04T17:19:10Z otwieracz: Linux. 2015-11-04T17:19:57Z dwchandler: Searching for "profiling" on http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html gives some info for Linux 2015-11-04T17:20:06Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T17:20:36Z dwchandler: I have no experience with that, so I'm done ;-) 2015-11-04T17:20:45Z mordocai: otwieracz: Also it looks like slime might have some decent utilities https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Profiling.html 2015-11-04T17:20:55Z mordocai: I haven't had to profile code yet, still a noob, so can't say from experience 2015-11-04T17:22:01Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:22:57Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-04T17:23:35Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:25:16Z otwieracz: I'll try with slime trace. 2015-11-04T17:25:19Z radioninja_work quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:25:36Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:26:25Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T17:27:41Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:28:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:28:33Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T17:28:46Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:30:59Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T17:31:33Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:32:35Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:35:13Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:36:11Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:37:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:37:25Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-04T17:37:25Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:37:25Z shka: hello 2015-11-04T17:38:03Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:39:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:41:09Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-04T17:41:09Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-04T17:41:23Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:42:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:42:30Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-04T17:42:49Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T17:45:44Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:46:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:48:39Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:50:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:51:07Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-04T17:51:08Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:51:17Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:52:32Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:52:43Z preacherAKAnd quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T17:52:59Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:53:46Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:54:05Z Yanez: hello 2015-11-04T17:55:52Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:55:54Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-04T17:56:17Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:56:47Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-04T17:56:51Z pjb: otwieracz: basically: M-x slime-profile-package RET … and M-x slime-profile-report RET 2015-11-04T17:56:59Z otwieracz: yes, yes. 2015-11-04T17:57:04Z otwieracz: I'm using it right 2015-11-04T17:57:05Z otwieracz: now. 2015-11-04T17:57:25Z antoszka: otwieracz: Getting any useful results out of it? 2015-11-04T17:57:50Z otwieracz: Not sure. 2015-11-04T17:58:19Z otwieracz: This may be just because of input data amount. 2015-11-04T17:58:29Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T17:59:30Z otwieracz: Let's say, I have function doing something for 10, 100 and 1000 items from history. 2015-11-04T18:00:17Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T18:00:37Z otwieracz: And, for all three, CPU is burned for 100%. 2015-11-04T18:00:58Z otwieracz: With those three functions responsible for >90% of CPU time 2015-11-04T18:01:19Z otwieracz: (with 0.004s/call) 2015-11-04T18:02:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T18:02:04Z otwieracz: Oh, to explain it a bit better. I've got (defun test () (do-10) (do-100) (do-1000), where (do-*) are macros. So I can not profile on them) 2015-11-04T18:02:13Z otwieracz: I am just profiling function test. 2015-11-04T18:02:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T18:03:17Z otwieracz: And, for (do-{10,100,1000}) this is 0.004s/call 2015-11-04T18:03:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:03:29Z otwieracz: do-{10,100} - 0.0004s/call 2015-11-04T18:03:39Z otwieracz: do-10 - 0.000077s/call 2015-11-04T18:04:02Z otwieracz: But, for do-{10,100,1000} and do-{10,100} CPU is still utilized in 100%. 2015-11-04T18:04:26Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:04:41Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:05:47Z otwieracz: So I am not sure if the amount of data is just not too big. 2015-11-04T18:05:48Z preacherAKAnd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T18:10:38Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:10:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:11:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:11:29Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:12:00Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2015-11-04T18:13:33Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:15:10Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:18:34Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:18:34Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-11-04T18:18:34Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:18:47Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:21:55Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:23:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:26:04Z sake_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:26:23Z sake_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T18:26:44Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-04T18:27:46Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:28:16Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T18:28:58Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T19:06:24Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:07:16Z grindhold is now known as grindlold 2015-11-04T19:08:54Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:11:18Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T19:12:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:12:18Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:12:58Z mordocai: phoe_krk: Never on a computer can you have anything that is really invisible to anything else. 2015-11-04T19:13:10Z mordocai: phoe_krk: You have to accept a certain level of "invisibleness" 2015-11-04T19:13:16Z phoe_krk: mordocai: I know, I know. 2015-11-04T19:13:24Z Shinmera: Embrace the openness. 2015-11-04T19:13:26Z phoe_krk: I'm thinking something along an OS isolating processes. 2015-11-04T19:13:53Z mordocai: Within the same process, I'm pretty sure you'll always be able to read memory from that other task somehow. 2015-11-04T19:13:55Z phoe_krk: s/isolating/that isolates/ 2015-11-04T19:14:26Z mordocai: Your best best is probably separate processes for each task and setup the OS isolation you speak of. But i'm far from an expert on such things 2015-11-04T19:14:42Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:15:06Z phoe_krk: I'm just thinking out loud what would be the theoretical functional way of separating processes' memory on a hypothetical LispOS and closures were the first thing that came to my mind 2015-11-04T19:15:20Z phoe_krk: inb4 the world doesn't need LispOS and it will never happen 2015-11-04T19:15:49Z mordocai would love a lisp os 2015-11-04T19:15:58Z trinitr0n: it exists 2015-11-04T19:15:58Z grindlold is now known as grindhold 2015-11-04T19:16:02Z trinitr0n: it's called genera ;) 2015-11-04T19:16:03Z phoe_krk: I know, trinitr0n 2015-11-04T19:16:05Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-04T19:16:18Z phoe_krk: but I wonder whether it has any process isolation 2015-11-04T19:16:21Z trinitr0n loves him some lisp machines 2015-11-04T19:16:22Z trinitr0n: HA 2015-11-04T19:16:25Z Bicyclidine: i mean, that's kind of like saying a C-based system would use scoped pointers for isolation 2015-11-04T19:16:29Z trinitr0n: no genera has no real system security 2015-11-04T19:16:38Z trinitr0n: no permissions 2015-11-04T19:16:43Z trinitr0n: it's not multiuser 2015-11-04T19:17:31Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T19:18:01Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: You might be interested in beach (Robert Strandh)'s paper on First Class Global Environments. 2015-11-04T19:18:39Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: thanks, googled it and I'll read it. 2015-11-04T19:18:58Z mordocai: phoe_krk: I have no real experience in this domain, but I imagine what you end up with is having to have a kernel that looks for things you aren't supposed to be doing and have everything go through that before it is executed. Basically from a high level how OS kernels do things. 2015-11-04T19:19:05Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I know, it's weird from a practical point of view, but I want to think of the theoretical stuff first 2015-11-04T19:19:39Z Bicyclidine: i mean, even theroetically it's a weird way to conceptualize things. 2015-11-04T19:19:47Z phoe_krk: mordocai: yes, it's called memory protection and is utilized in most kernels nowadays. I just wonder how it could work within Lisp with as little necessary implementation as possible 2015-11-04T19:19:48Z Bicyclidine: i mean, i mean, i mean, 2015-11-04T19:21:26Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:23:06Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:24:15Z milkseaweed joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:24:50Z phoe_krk: you mean? 2015-11-04T19:26:05Z Bicyclidine: that was me noting my overly repetitive messages, sorry 2015-11-04T19:26:50Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:27:07Z resttime: Fare has written some nice stuff on such things http://ngnghm.github.io/ 2015-11-04T19:27:20Z milkseaweed: do lists have a tail reference in common lisp? or is there some data structure (by default or in some library) that is optimized for adding to the end? 2015-11-04T19:27:42Z Bicyclidine: lists are singly linked 2015-11-04T19:27:52Z Bicyclidine: you could use eg an array with fill pointer 2015-11-04T19:27:55Z phoe_krk: milkseaweed: not until you use a custom deque 2015-11-04T19:28:21Z resttime: milkseaweed: Look for a data structure library with double linked lists 2015-11-04T19:28:25Z phoe_krk: either an array with a fill pointer, or you create a struct that holds a list and (last list) and custom functions to access and update it. 2015-11-04T19:28:28Z resttime: cl-contatiners I think was one of them 2015-11-04T19:28:37Z phoe_krk: or just look up a library since someone probably already wrote that. 2015-11-04T19:28:40Z milkseaweed: I don't want a doubly linked list, just a tail reference 2015-11-04T19:28:57Z phoe_krk: milkseaweed: therefore a struct that holds a list and (last list). 2015-11-04T19:29:00Z Bicyclidine: you can keep one yourself 2015-11-04T19:29:07Z phoe_krk: oh wait 2015-11-04T19:29:12Z Bicyclidine: have the list you hold onto be (cons (last list) list) 2015-11-04T19:29:16Z phoe_krk: no, not last list 2015-11-04T19:29:22Z Bicyclidine: why not 2015-11-04T19:29:29Z phoe_krk: ...that would be tougher if you wanted to remove the last element 2015-11-04T19:29:47Z Bicyclidine: if you just want to add to the end it's fine 2015-11-04T19:29:48Z phoe_krk: depends what operations will be most commonly used, milkseaweed 2015-11-04T19:30:12Z phoe_krk: what will it be? just like Bicyclidine said, if you want to just append things to the end it'll do fine, if you want to easily remove elements from the end then it's going to need a modification 2015-11-04T19:30:23Z milkseaweed: yeah I just want to append things 2015-11-04T19:31:25Z milkseaweed: thank you 2015-11-04T19:31:58Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T19:32:57Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T19:32:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: read about the EROS OS and capability based systems in general. 2015-11-04T19:33:11Z phoe_krk: pjb: reading, thanks 2015-11-04T19:33:23Z pjb: process isolation as done in systems like unix is very coarse. 2015-11-04T19:34:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T19:34:06Z phoe_krk: pjb: that's why I thought there has to be an actually elegant way to do it, and if it's elegant, it's lispable 2015-11-04T19:34:53Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, but it involves a controlled environment, (more easily provided by a controlled language/compiler than by the hardware). 2015-11-04T19:35:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: exactly what I thought: language or compiler providing that and not the hardware 2015-11-04T19:35:34Z pjb: phoe_krk: basically, capabilities are pointers, and when you don't have the pointer, you can't access the data. The problem is that in machines like Intel processors and languages like C, you can build pointers you should not have access to. 2015-11-04T19:35:45Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:35:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T19:35:59Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-11-04T19:36:06Z phoe_krk: ...NullPointerException comes to mind. *shiver* 2015-11-04T19:36:10Z pjb: phoe_krk: in Common Lisp, if you exclude implementation specific "extensions", then you cannot build pointers like that, and therefore closure indeed would allow you to control the access to the data enclosed. 2015-11-04T19:37:37Z milkseaweed quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-04T19:37:50Z pjb: The question is whether you are able to build a system (compiler + OS + hardware), where you are able, as a system designer, to resist the tentation of providing a way to build pointers. This includes the validation of the code generated by "a" compiler: you must be able resist the tentation to allow users to write their own compiler allowing building random pointers! 2015-11-04T19:37:59Z pjb: It's mostly a question of fortitude. 2015-11-04T19:38:11Z pjb: Some people will complain: but you can't watch youtube on your system! 2015-11-04T19:38:23Z phoe_krk: do I need pointers to watch youtube? 2015-11-04T19:38:35Z pjb: Yes, you need to be able to run code that's written in C :-) 2015-11-04T19:38:55Z phoe_krk: can't I just write a Youtube implementation in Lisp then? 2015-11-04T19:38:57Z pjb: But the C language doesn't prevent you to write a compiler targeting your controlled environment. 2015-11-04T19:39:02Z pjb: Of course, you can! 2015-11-04T19:39:08Z phoe_krk: That would make the system fairly homogenous when it comes to code. 2015-11-04T19:39:23Z pjb: Note, it's not necessarily lisp, it could be a VM, like the JVM. 2015-11-04T19:39:29Z phoe_krk: Yup. 2015-11-04T19:39:34Z pjb: As long as you don't have the tentation of providing a "FFI". 2015-11-04T19:39:56Z phoe_krk: FFI is always a danger to security. 2015-11-04T19:40:23Z phoe_krk: Does Java have any FFI? 2015-11-04T19:40:39Z phoe_krk: I don't think it does. It would end up ruining the JVM in 1001+ ways. 2015-11-04T19:40:53Z pjb: It does. At least Dalvik has the NDK. 2015-11-04T19:41:06Z pjb: I think there's something similar in the JDK. JNI or something? 2015-11-04T19:41:17Z Shinmera: JNI is the thing, yes. 2015-11-04T19:41:24Z pjb: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/jni/ 2015-11-04T19:41:42Z pjb: This is the kind of things you definitely don't want to include. 2015-11-04T19:41:52Z phoe_krk: Hmmm. 2015-11-04T19:41:56Z phoe_krk: So essentially... 2015-11-04T19:42:29Z phoe_krk: I'd need to be a true bastard and write a C-to-Lisp compiler. 2015-11-04T19:42:30Z pjb: You can define a VM, and ideally, you would implement it in hardware, to ensure that there's definitely no way to circumvent it. 2015-11-04T19:42:33Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T19:42:38Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes. 2015-11-04T19:42:53Z pjb: Check Vacietis. 2015-11-04T19:42:55Z phoe_krk: Which, with a hardware Lisp implementation, would actually make that hardened. 2015-11-04T19:43:32Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T19:43:32Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T19:43:40Z pjb: And I started developping one in: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/languages/{cpp,c11} 2015-11-04T19:44:04Z pjb: phoe_krk: but notice that the Lisp Machine had locative, and a way to build such "pointers". 2015-11-04T19:44:19Z pjb: It's hard to resist the temptation. 2015-11-04T19:44:32Z phoe_krk: pjb: temptation = vulnerability. 2015-11-04T19:44:35Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T19:44:53Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:44:57Z phoe_krk: I actually think it would be possible to have that, but only in a debug mode of sorts that has access to that sort of thing. 2015-11-04T19:45:07Z phoe_krk: so, to break the system's security, you have to reach that debug mode. 2015-11-04T19:45:11Z pjb: Well, no. 2015-11-04T19:46:05Z pjb: You can debug in a virtual development environment. But once it's running on the system, you should have resisted to all temptation. 2015-11-04T19:46:52Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:47:17Z phoe_krk: That's quite a task 2015-11-04T19:47:22Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T19:47:31Z pjb: Note that you can have a rule in your system that any thread of which the killing capability is lost, can be killed and garbage collected at any time. 2015-11-04T19:47:38Z phoe_krk: To build a hardware that's not buggy and doesn't allow you to debug live. 2015-11-04T19:47:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:47:56Z pjb: Use maths. 2015-11-04T19:48:09Z phoe_krk: Hm? 2015-11-04T19:48:57Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:50:18Z pjb: Notice that on unix you can debug a process, because it's a virtual machine and therefore you have access to the process memory from outside of it. 2015-11-04T19:50:25Z pjb: cf. gdb attach 2015-11-04T19:50:47Z pjb: But this doesn't work to debug the kernel. There, you need to use other techniques. 2015-11-04T19:51:44Z pjb: In a system using controlled environments and capabilities, there would be no difference between the kernel and user code. The separation would be between code and the machine (the VM or processor implementing the controlled environment). 2015-11-04T19:52:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T19:52:46Z phoe_krk: I see 2015-11-04T19:53:22Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:55:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T19:58:30Z eni_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:01:58Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T20:02:00Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:03:14Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T20:04:11Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:05:12Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:05:39Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:05:49Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:06:20Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:06:22Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T20:06:46Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:06:49Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T20:07:08Z cmack quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T20:08:18Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T20:08:25Z doodlehaus quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T20:10:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:11:17Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:15:05Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:16:02Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:19:11Z phoe_krk: test 2015-11-04T20:19:15Z phoe_krk: am I disconnected? 2015-11-04T20:19:30Z Bicyclidine: no, unless you sent that message a few minutes ago, perhaps. 2015-11-04T20:19:36Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-11-04T20:21:00Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:21:22Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:21:55Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T20:23:49Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:24:10Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:25:45Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:25:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:31:29Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:31:42Z faalentijn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T20:32:32Z vedwin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T20:33:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T20:34:59Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-04T20:36:25Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Erlang does this, and it would be easy to set up the MMU to disallow crossing heaps while running in another heap's context 2015-11-04T21:06:04Z hitecnologys: White_Flame: yeah, the code is now much simpler… and has O(1) complexity in worst case. =P 2015-11-04T21:06:13Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:06:56Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T21:07:12Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: but "the lisp way" really does include the ability to mutate anything in the system. it's hard to try to resolve the notion of security boundaries and lispishness 2015-11-04T21:07:40Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: you cannot really have virus-free multiprocess systems without that. 2015-11-04T21:07:58Z White_Flame: lisp is a virus enabler by definition then :-P 2015-11-04T21:08:32Z White_Flame: however, as has been mentioned above, you generally can't create raw pointers from scratch from within the language, so only using language semantics, you can make things generally secure 2015-11-04T21:08:41Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:08:53Z phoe_krk: That's what I hope! 2015-11-04T21:09:15Z White_Flame: and security research would involve making sure nobody can break the lisp semantics, and making sure there aren't any uncovered introspective facilities that ensure access to stuff you shouldn't have 2015-11-04T21:09:23Z White_Flame: I know Java's been nailed for the latter 2015-11-04T21:09:24Z phoe_krk: But generally speaking, I want process A being unable to read or mutate process B unless it explicitly makes an IPC. 2015-11-04T21:09:50Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T21:10:21Z White_Flame: well, define "unable". Unable while running CLHS compatible code and no implementation-specific functionality? 2015-11-04T21:10:26Z Bicyclidine: Java or JVM? 2015-11-04T21:10:44Z White_Flame: Bicyclidine: I don't quite recall. I think it was Java the language 2015-11-04T21:11:06Z White_Flame: the way it defined its sandboxes, and standard introspective facilities could get around it. That was a few years ago 2015-11-04T21:11:10Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:11:11Z phoe_krk: Unable under any circumstances; both processes are only Lisp code and are run under whatever LispOS security mechanisms. 2015-11-04T21:11:54Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: a big question that comes to mind is how the 'kernel' accesses privileged stuff 2015-11-04T21:12:15Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:12:15Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: through an API that is by definition not available to processes 2015-11-04T21:12:31Z White_Flame: but in any case, you'd need to create the notion of a security boundary. one doesn't exist of that strictness in Lisp, or in broad functional style either 2015-11-04T21:12:59Z White_Flame: you're basically describing Erlang's VM 2015-11-04T21:13:11Z White_Flame: but I don't know exactly how secure it is 2015-11-04T21:13:13Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: there needs to be such a boundary. I'm thinking that in the hardware, actually, it might naturally occur 2015-11-04T21:13:18Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:13:22Z phoe_krk: As in, a hardware Lisp implementation 2015-11-04T21:13:26Z White_Flame: I do know that whoever's on the network as a node is trusted and can do anything 2015-11-04T21:14:12Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: right, that's new design; that's not an addressed issue in the lisp machines, nor in the lisp image implementations we have now 2015-11-04T21:14:34Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: the kernel is the only bridge between applications and the hardware. 2015-11-04T21:14:34Z White_Flame: it's not uncommon to try to design such things, but there isn't any standard Lisp-ish or FP-ish practices to build off of. It's new 2015-11-04T21:16:44Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:16:57Z White_Flame: beach has a notion of first-class environment. I have a notion of virtualized packages. Erlang has a notion of separate heaps. etc 2015-11-04T21:17:06Z phoe_krk: Mhm, I've noticed that 2015-11-04T21:17:24Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: I'd need to read into existing hypervisor solutions and translate that to Lisp hardware/kernel/software 2015-11-04T21:17:36Z White_Flame: sure, existing process boundaries are well know 2015-11-04T21:17:52Z White_Flame: +n. you could also easily run multiple communicating OS processes each with their own liso 2015-11-04T21:18:05Z phoe_krk: yes 2015-11-04T21:18:09Z phoe_krk: So I essentially... 2015-11-04T21:18:15Z phoe_krk: ...virtualize the processes 2015-11-04T21:18:17Z phoe_krk: Not OSes 2015-11-04T21:18:19Z phoe_krk: but processes 2015-11-04T21:18:30Z White_Flame: but to put it all into 1 process, you're kind of reinventing that in user space. Plus, you need to figure out what dynamic scope means in that infrastructure, etc 2015-11-04T21:18:52Z phoe_krk: depends on what a process means 2015-11-04T21:19:07Z phoe_krk: with such a hardware infrastructure, I'd need to redefine what a process means 2015-11-04T21:19:11Z White_Flame: and how multimethods can interact across partitions 2015-11-04T21:19:39Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:19:42Z White_Flame: so there are a lot of language-based decisions. The hardware protection stuff is already there 2015-11-04T21:19:55Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:20:50Z phoe_krk: The idea is to be able to spawn a fully working Lisp instance, independent from all others when it comes to memory, for the process to run in 2015-11-04T21:21:17Z White_Flame: um, that's what we already have now. run 2 instances of SBCL, have them talk 2015-11-04T21:21:21Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:21:22Z Bicyclidine: isn't that exactly how linux (and presumably more, but i dont know them) works. 2015-11-04T21:21:49Z Bicyclidine: i mean, except with the "interpreter language" being asm. 2015-11-04T21:22:18Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: the difference is, I don't want to spawn two different Lisp images, I want to spawn one that is able to pop smaller sub-images from itself 2015-11-04T21:22:37Z phoe_krk: that are also secure when it comes to hardware access 2015-11-04T21:22:38Z Bicyclidine: what's the difference? 2015-11-04T21:22:47Z White_Flame: a "fully working Lisp instance, independent from all others when it comes to memory" is a different lisp image 2015-11-04T21:22:48Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:22:48Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-04T21:22:48Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:22:52Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: security IMO 2015-11-04T21:23:02Z Bicyclidine: but that's... i mean, what White_Flame said. 2015-11-04T21:23:04Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: hm 2015-11-04T21:23:20Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:23:34Z Bicyclidine: lisp machines have this mysterious tendency to end up as what we already have, eh. 2015-11-04T21:23:37Z phoe_krk: so we come down to Lisp kernel spawning sub-Lisps that have no direct hardware access 2015-11-04T21:24:08Z phoe_krk: this doesn't click for me just yet 2015-11-04T21:24:22Z phoe_krk: something's missing and I'm too tired to think it out just yet 2015-11-04T21:25:19Z phoe_krk: what we have right now could actually be done in pure software right now 2015-11-04T21:25:36Z phoe_krk: so we come back to LispOS 2015-11-04T21:25:47Z kami`` joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:25:57Z phoe_krk: which used to run on an ordinary Apple ][. 2015-11-04T21:26:09Z White_Flame: by your descriptions, it really doesn't matter what language the kernel which spawns lisp images is, if you're going to be isolated from it as a lisp user. So why not use linux for that kernel? 2015-11-04T21:26:56Z White_Flame: and I don't think it's a "sub-image" or "sub-lisp" if it's completely isolated. I think it's just a new lisp image 2015-11-04T21:27:35Z jackdaniel: for the turtles all-the-way-down sake 2015-11-04T21:27:37Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-11-04T21:27:56Z White_Flame: sure, I have absolutely nothing against that 2015-11-04T21:27:58Z phoe_krk: A modified (for translating Lispcalls-to-DHA) linux kernel that spawns modified (for no DHA) lisp images? 2015-11-04T21:28:00Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:28:30Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: I'm basically asking you to describe what the difference is with your imagined system, vs what we have now with linux launching sbcl instances 2015-11-04T21:28:57Z White_Flame: the only difference I see is that a kernel developer could use Lisp, but users would have the exact same lisp instances that they have now 2015-11-04T21:29:25Z phoe_krk: with linux interprocess isolation... 2015-11-04T21:29:42Z phoe_krk: and a different SBCL instance for each process... 2015-11-04T21:30:00Z phoe_krk: nothing 2015-11-04T21:30:06Z White_Flame: :) 2015-11-04T21:30:15Z phoe_krk: we could end up some purists write a kernel in Lisp when the time comes, but, well 2015-11-04T21:30:25Z phoe_krk: a kernel surrounded by Lisp images 2015-11-04T21:30:28Z phoe_krk: that will do. 2015-11-04T21:30:37Z phoe_krk: so, essentially. 2015-11-04T21:30:45Z jackdaniel: but to be honest I'd make a good use of REPL when developing drivers for linux :) 2015-11-04T21:30:52Z phoe_krk: :3 2015-11-04T21:31:11Z phoe_krk: the first step IMO is what we've been discussing already a lot of time ago: a Lisp shell for Linux 2015-11-04T21:31:26Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:32:01Z White_Flame: Users of lisp machines could freely configure anything in the system. Support utility "applications" could directly walk through other applications' data structures for reporting, debugging, or manipulation 2015-11-04T21:32:10Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-04T21:32:27Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:32:27Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: that's what I said by the means of "debugging" or "debug mode". 2015-11-04T21:32:29Z White_Flame: these are the types of advantages that people thinking about modern LispOS ideas wish to retain, and resolve that with security considerations 2015-11-04T21:32:39Z phoe_krk: With modern systems, you can't have that because badware. 2015-11-04T21:32:45Z Shinmera: I remember an article of a lisp machine user that was able to debug and fix a fatal error on the hardware level thanks to having full control all the way down. 2015-11-04T21:32:47Z phoe_krk: Or NSA. 2015-11-04T21:33:01Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: o_o 2015-11-04T21:33:12Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: that's what I mean by making a good use of REPL 2015-11-04T21:33:14Z phoe_krk: power user's heaven 2015-11-04T21:33:22Z White_Flame: by hardware level, you mean microcode editing? 2015-11-04T21:33:41Z Shinmera: White_Flame: I don't recall the details anymore, but it had something to do with a driver going bonkers. 2015-11-04T21:33:52Z Shinmera wishes he'd bookmark things more often 2015-11-04T21:33:58Z phoe_krk: that would require a Lisp kernel though if we wanted to replicate that ability. 2015-11-04T21:34:05Z phoe_krk: Linux would go oops or KP. 2015-11-04T21:34:05Z jackdaniel: configuring dma, investigating responses from the device etc 2015-11-04T21:34:25Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: not necessarily - modules work when loaded to the kernel space 2015-11-04T21:34:42Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: or have a Lisp kernel-debugging module hooked in. would it work? 2015-11-04T21:34:56Z phoe_krk: ...or, wait 2015-11-04T21:35:16Z jackdaniel: I don't know - it might 2015-11-04T21:35:16Z Bicyclidine: editing running kernel code is a nice topic to change from from security 2015-11-04T21:35:27Z phoe_krk: Linux, upon KPing, goes kexec and boots into the sub-kernel that collects crash data and shows the KP message. 2015-11-04T21:35:28Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: :^) 2015-11-04T21:36:14Z phoe_krk: It *should* be possible to have it kexec into something already loaded as a module in a fixed place so it wouldn't corrupt the kernel memory... 2015-11-04T21:36:23Z jackdaniel: Bicyclidine: if you have a privigiles to load a module in linux then you have basically all privigiles on the system so security topic is irrevelant here 2015-11-04T21:36:39Z phoe_krk: ...that could be a Lisp-based microkernel strictly for debugging the system and investigating the kernel state *the moment it died* 2015-11-04T21:37:07Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: you talk about the kgdb basically 2015-11-04T21:37:09Z phoe_krk: ...and you could easily kexec back into the Linux kernel out of the debugger once you make your fixes. 2015-11-04T21:37:27Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:37:30Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: yes, precisely, I knew the idea rung a bell 2015-11-04T21:37:45Z jackdaniel: good night all o/ 2015-11-04T21:37:45Z phoe_krk: but KGDB requires another machine 2015-11-04T21:37:50Z phoe_krk: night jackdaniel 2015-11-04T21:38:36Z phoe_krk: I thought of something you could autoboot into upon a kernel crash to fix the problem locally. 2015-11-04T21:39:29Z phoe_krk: basically, when you crash, the debug-kernel can have all access to the kernel/driver memory and make the necessary edits that go live the moment you quit it and pass control back to the proper kernel 2015-11-04T21:40:25Z phoe_krk: would be tricky to implement, but doable and in the Lisp Machine spirit 2015-11-04T21:40:51Z kami`` is now known as kami 2015-11-04T21:41:01Z White_Flame: there isn't a kernel separation in the Lisp Machine world 2015-11-04T21:41:22Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: we're thinking about linux+SBCL here 2015-11-04T21:41:24Z White_Flame: and the debugger is available for everything by nature, in a very unified fashion 2015-11-04T21:41:50Z White_Flame: right, but you referenced "the Lisp Machine spirit", which I'd point out it really isn't 2015-11-04T21:42:09Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: right, I didn't convey the thought fully 2015-11-04T21:42:15Z userm: Hi, is there a way to get emacs to indent some of my macro more like it would indent a defun form? e.g I currently have https://gist.github.com/anonymous/181a6c9668764c0f65e9 2015-11-04T21:42:29Z wtbrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T21:42:47Z White_Flame: userm: SLIME needs to be connected to a Lisp where the DEFCOMPONENT macro is defined 2015-11-04T21:43:07Z White_Flame: as far as I understand it, if the macro has a &body field, SLIME uses that to introspect it like code 2015-11-04T21:43:30Z White_Flame: s/introspect/indent/ 2015-11-04T21:43:38Z phoe_krk: the dream is a Lisp kernel able to debug-hook into processes and drivers and, what I think, a hardware-embedded Lisp debugger with a separate piece of memory that can understand and parse the live kernel/driver/process structure before passing the control over to it again 2015-11-04T21:43:56Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T21:44:14Z White_Flame: given that Lisp doesn't allow raw pointer creation, I'm not sure that the memory separation needs to be as strict 2015-11-04T21:44:20Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-04T21:44:24Z phoe_krk: so you can either debug from the Lisp-kernel level or debug the kernel from the hardware-debugger level (that could possibly also debug itself, if it's a thing) 2015-11-04T21:44:44Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:44:52Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: I don't think it either, it could be something along the lines of first class environments or some other advanced closures 2015-11-04T21:44:53Z userm: That might be my problem then. Although I'm connected to SLIME, I'm using parenscript's defpsmacro macro 2015-11-04T21:45:03Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: but we're beginning with a linux kernel and its interprocess isolation 2015-11-04T21:45:03Z phoe_krk: brb 2015-11-04T21:45:18Z White_Flame: userm: ah, I've not used parenscript. I don't know what these implications are 2015-11-04T21:45:30Z Shinmera: userm: Also note that slime will only /highlight/ macros with names that begin with define-* 2015-11-04T21:46:33Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-04T21:46:53Z Shinmera: userm: You might be able to force slime into a particular indentation by giving it explicit hints. I don't know if that will work in your context for sure, but it might be worth a try. Have a look at trivial-indent for that. https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-indent 2015-11-04T21:47:14Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: SLIME already lets you hook into other already running OS processes, and run the REPL and debugger against it 2015-11-04T21:47:32Z White_Flame: (if you launch your lisp processes with swank running) 2015-11-04T21:48:50Z userm: Shinmera: Cool I will check that out 2015-11-04T21:49:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:49:50Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T21:54:09Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T21:54:13Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:54:38Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:54:47Z otjura quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:56:20Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T21:56:32Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T21:57:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:57:47Z shka: any method in the standard or alexandria to remove-if but only one element? 2015-11-04T21:58:17Z White_Flame: add :count 1 2015-11-04T21:58:34Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:58:40Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T21:58:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-04T21:59:36Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:00:12Z shka: White_Flame: thx 2015-11-04T22:00:18Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-04T22:01:40Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T22:01:44Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:02:12Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T22:02:49Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T22:03:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:04:19Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:08:56Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T22:09:13Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: the compiler of my dreams can understand running code, as in, pinpoint the instruction to a local copy of Lisp code of the debugged application/driver/kernel 2015-11-04T22:09:25Z phoe_krk: as in, you can actually debug Lisp and not asm/microcode 2015-11-04T22:09:31Z phoe_krk: high-level debugging 2015-11-04T22:09:33Z phoe_krk: ;____; 2015-11-04T22:09:46Z phoe_krk: and then just pass the control back into the kernel 2015-11-04T22:09:48Z phoe_krk dreams 2015-11-04T22:10:11Z White_Flame: I fail to see the difference... 2015-11-04T22:10:38Z White_Flame: I know in other environments, you need to launch in Debug vs Release mode to enable the compiler, but that's not the case in Lisp 2015-11-04T22:11:07Z White_Flame: and pretty much all debuggers associate HLL source with the generated asm statements 2015-11-04T22:11:12Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:11:58Z White_Flame: (ugh, enable the _disassembler_, not compiler. I'm not awake yet) 2015-11-04T22:12:06Z White_Flame: _debugger_, too :-P 2015-11-04T22:12:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T22:17:18Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:17:50Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:18:07Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:18:14Z pjb: phoe_krk: that said, even assuming you take over the processor from the boot, in the BIOS, with Intel I'm not sure there are any guarantee you can keep control of everything. For example, the Intel MMU are Turing complete, so if user code can manipulate the system to set up the MMU tables in a certain way, it could be able to run code under the OS without even using the processor! There is certainly other ways to bypass processor 2015-11-04T22:18:14Z pjb: security with Intel (or american or chinese processors in general). You might want to source the processor elsewhere. 2015-11-04T22:18:22Z pjb: Better build it yourself. 2015-11-04T22:18:38Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:19:59Z Shinmera: If you want to bake an apple pie from scratch... 2015-11-04T22:20:41Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-04T22:20:47Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:21:58Z fortitude quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:22:58Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:23:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:23:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:24:02Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:24:17Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:24:55Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:25:46Z Raimondii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:26:20Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:26:55Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:27:20Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:27:31Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:27:39Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: I thought of everything being debug mode by design, so the debugger can be launched to poke at everything 2015-11-04T22:28:50Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:29:08Z francogrex_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:29:28Z francogrex_: hi, I have this, I am trying to understand how a function works in sas: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158498 2015-11-04T22:30:06Z francogrex_: it's supposed to output a character string that contains a binary representation however I cannot understand how the hex value 68630B0B00000000 is retrieved 2015-11-04T22:30:21Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:30:24Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: that's what we already have with slime 2015-11-04T22:30:28Z francogrex_: I'd like of course to reproduce it in lisp 2015-11-04T22:30:59Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:31:23Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: yes, but I'd like to locate a software debugger in the *kernel* and a hardware debugger *outside*. 2015-11-04T22:31:35Z phoe_krk: aside from userspace debuggers like slime 2015-11-04T22:31:52Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:32:02Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:32:06Z fortitude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:32:30Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: sure, but that gets back to wanting stacks of turtles, even if the use cases are the same 2015-11-04T22:32:35Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:32:36Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2015-11-04T22:33:06Z Raimondii quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:34:00Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: either that, or we won't have lisp head to toe 2015-11-04T22:34:04Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:34:05Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:34:27Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-04T22:34:29Z White_Flame: I don't see much value in a LispOS that behaves just like Linux does now 2015-11-04T22:34:39Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T22:34:48Z Shinmera: "It'll be cooler when we do it" 2015-11-04T22:34:54Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-04T22:35:20Z phoe_krk: oh okay, anyway 2015-11-04T22:35:24Z pjb: phoe_krk: well, to debug a unix program you usually launch it from gdb, so gdb has all the rights on the child process. When using gdb attach, the OS must allow a random process (gdb) to access to another random process (the debugged process), and this is done after validing access rights. In the case of lisp of course it's different, the debugger is already inside the program ;-) 2015-11-04T22:35:28Z White_Flame: but then again, I'm a user-space developer, not a kernel hacker 2015-11-04T22:35:43Z phoe_krk: my GF doesn't speak English 2015-11-04T22:36:49Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T22:36:50Z phoe_krk: so I got the idea of translating a subset of Lisp functions into Polish for the very beginning. which is going to help IMO as she's fairly fluent at all the humanistic arts 2015-11-04T22:37:07Z phoe_krk: until I get her English enough to be able to use CL on its own. 2015-11-04T22:37:10Z pjb: francogrex_: isn't it obvious? 104 99 11 11 0 0 0 0 =? 68630B0B00000000 104(dec)=68(hex) 99(dec)=63(hex) 11(dec)=0B(hex) etc. 2015-11-04T22:37:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-04T22:37:38Z White_Flame: francogrex_: it looks like it's printing the _address_ of x, not the value of it (23) 2015-11-04T22:38:05Z White_Flame: (hence the "addr" prefix) 2015-11-04T22:38:35Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:39:03Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:39:10Z phoe_krk: Let's say I have an alist of form ((#'origfunc1 . #'newfunc1) (#'origfunc2 . #'newfunc2) ...). #'origfuncX are all valid lisp functions. How do I make #'newfuncX have exactly the same properties as #'origfuncX? 2015-11-04T22:39:45Z White_Flame: what do you mean by properties of a function? 2015-11-04T22:39:55Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-04T22:39:57Z Bicyclidine: (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'origfuncX args)) 2015-11-04T22:40:08Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-04T22:40:42Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-04T22:40:42Z Bicyclidine: i guess that doesn't move documentation 2015-11-04T22:40:58Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: documentation is in English, so thanks :P 2015-11-04T22:41:15Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: oh! so a macro that loops over an alist and defuns all the functions with apply newfunc will do? 2015-11-04T22:41:37Z Bicyclidine: i mean, the things you can do with a function are basically call it, put it somewhere, and query/set its documentation, as far as i remember 2015-11-04T22:41:40Z Bicyclidine: compile it too, i gues 2015-11-04T22:41:54Z phoe_krk: I will only do the first two things 2015-11-04T22:42:03Z Bicyclidine: then the lambda's fine, yeah 2015-11-04T22:42:06Z francogrex_: White_Flame: yes indeed the address 2015-11-04T22:42:07Z phoe_krk: call it and (if we get there) store it 2015-11-04T22:42:27Z Bicyclidine: though i'm not sure why you'd want to do this. 2015-11-04T22:42:53Z White_Flame: given the limited number of things you can do with it, just keeping another reference to the same function should be equivalent if you're not touching docstrings 2015-11-04T22:43:08Z White_Flame: are you doing something with EQ that you need them to be separate for whatever reason? 2015-11-04T22:43:14Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I want to get her to grasp the basic basics of Lisp without the necessary English knowledge just yet. 2015-11-04T22:43:16Z francogrex_: pjb: aye, indeed 2015-11-04T22:43:20Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: no, not really. 2015-11-04T22:43:30Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:43:33Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: i do not know what that has to do with alists of functions 2015-11-04T22:43:49Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: ignore it, it's just a data structure I thought up to examplify 2015-11-04T22:44:15Z phoe_krk: I basically have a list of function symbols in English and I have a list of function symbols in Polish and I'd like to map Polish symbols to English ones 2015-11-04T22:44:16Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:44:23Z White_Flame: lambdas are a more interesting/useful thing to teach than defuns, so passing around function instances is something to showcase, rather than re-defuning toplevel functions 2015-11-04T22:44:44Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: I don't want to teach defuns right now 2015-11-04T22:44:52Z White_Flame: (setf (symbol-function polish-name) (symbol-function english-name)) ? 2015-11-04T22:44:59Z userm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:44:59Z phoe_krk: let me check 2015-11-04T22:45:46Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: precisely the trick. symbol-function was what I was missing. 2015-11-04T22:46:09Z Shinmera: White_Flame: I'm not sure if that works on macros though. 2015-11-04T22:46:43Z White_Flame: breaks in my sbcl 2015-11-04T22:46:55Z Bicyclidine: symbol-function on a macro gets you "an object of implementation-dependent nature and identity is returned" so, uh 2015-11-04T22:47:05Z White_Flame: "# is not acceptable to (SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION)." 2015-11-04T22:47:15Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: Yeah but that doesn't tell whether putting it somewhere else will work or not. 2015-11-04T22:47:18Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T22:47:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:47:22Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: wat 2015-11-04T22:47:32Z Bicyclidine: i mean, i don't see why it couldn't return a 4 2015-11-04T22:47:33Z phoe_krk: oh, macros 2015-11-04T22:47:42Z Bicyclidine: anyway (setf (macro-function ...) (macro-function ...)) works 2015-11-04T22:47:56Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: wonderful 2015-11-04T22:48:15Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:49:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:49:59Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-04T22:50:04Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:50:35Z phoe_krk: ...why did I just misread KGDB as KGB 2015-11-04T22:51:07Z phoe_krk: in Soviet Russia, the bugs swear because of you 2015-11-04T22:52:19Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:53:17Z newdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T22:54:36Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T22:54:47Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:54:47Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:55:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T22:55:22Z kami: AeroNotix: ping 2015-11-04T22:57:57Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:58:26Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-04T22:58:42Z francogrex_ quit 2015-11-04T22:59:52Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:01:04Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:01:37Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-11-04T23:03:26Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:12:00Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:13:17Z treaki joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:13:37Z Whymind quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T23:15:16Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:15:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:16:20Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:18:16Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:19:28Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:20:30Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:20:48Z phoe_krk: what possibility exists to translate keywords inside function calls? 2015-11-04T23:21:43Z Bicyclidine: probably write your own function that does the translation 2015-11-04T23:22:15Z phoe_krk: right; for keyworded functions it's going to be necessary 2015-11-04T23:23:38Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-04T23:23:58Z X-Scale left #lisp 2015-11-04T23:24:28Z phoe_krk: ...it's not trivial 2015-11-04T23:25:08Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-04T23:25:09Z phoe_krk: (a) (a :b c) are two different funcalls 2015-11-04T23:25:35Z Bicyclidine: yeah, you have to use key-p, probably. 2015-11-04T23:26:12Z JuanDaugherty: in Soviet Russia, nobody can thank Obama 2015-11-04T23:26:38Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I'll go the hard way, go with &rest and push proper keys and values onto a list and then apply the function with the arg being the pushed list. 2015-11-04T23:34:56Z pjb: (defun a (a &key b) (cl:a a :english-b b)) 2015-11-04T23:35:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:35:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-04T23:35:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:35:36Z phoe_krk: pjb: oh, that's much simpler! thanks 2015-11-04T23:35:49Z pjb: Actually, it's not that simple. 2015-11-04T23:35:51Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-04T23:36:19Z pjb: phoe_krk: some functions may make semantic differences between (cl:a a) and (cl:a :english-b nil) or whatever default value is specified. 2015-11-04T23:36:49Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-04T23:36:51Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:36:53Z Shinmera: supplied-p :/ 2015-11-04T23:37:06Z pjb: So you'd want rather: (defun a (a &key (b nil bp)) (apply (function cl:a) a (append (when bp (list :english-b b))))) 2015-11-04T23:38:15Z phoe_krk: pjb: what about multiple keys though? 2015-11-04T23:38:16Z Bicyclidine: you could do (defun reducex (&rest args) (apply #'reduce (mapcar (lambda (a) (case a ((:key) :keyx) ((:from-end) :from-endx) ... (t a))) args))) and it would sorta work. 2015-11-04T23:39:02Z pjb: You probably don't want to translate values. 2015-11-04T23:39:31Z phoe_krk: pjb: I don't want to translate values, I want to translate keys 2015-11-04T23:39:44Z Bicyclidine: yeah, but the values are usually not keywords. 2015-11-04T23:39:52Z Bicyclidine: this is why i said "sorta". 2015-11-04T23:39:52Z pjb: But then sometimes you might want to. (open f :if-does-not-exist :supercede) -> (ouvrir f :si-inexistant :superseder) 2015-11-04T23:40:25Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:40:56Z Shinmera: So in the end a s/r for all keywords in the rest might be a good enough heuristic. 2015-11-04T23:41:25Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: sounds sane, given that the keywords in the rest very much repeat. 2015-11-04T23:41:42Z pjb: Shinmera: yes, that may be a better way to do this. 2015-11-04T23:41:42Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: Until you want to pass in an english keyword as a value. 2015-11-04T23:41:58Z pjb: Well this is only for CL functions and macros. 2015-11-04T23:42:26Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: basic stuff that explains basics of Lisp for people who don't grasp English just yet 2015-11-04T23:42:45Z Bicyclidine: honestly, in context, it might be better to just use the english names. it's not like 'lambda' or 'reduce' are very similar to their colloquial definitions (or lack thereof) 2015-11-04T23:42:52Z pjb: phoe_krk: keep the dictionary separated from the generating code, so we may localize to different languages. 2015-11-04T23:42:56Z phoe_krk: and if you want to pass in an english keyword, you could pass an eg. polish one and have it auto s/rd to an english one. 2015-11-04T23:43:02Z phoe_krk: pjb: I totally will 2015-11-04T23:43:14Z Bicyclidine: buuuuut i'm a monoglot dummy so maybe i'm wrong. 2015-11-04T23:43:21Z pjb: phoe_krk: the only thing you have to keep, is NIL, if you don't want to have to write an ugly kludge with reader macros. 2015-11-04T23:43:31Z phoe_krk: pjb: NIL stays NIL and T stays T. 2015-11-04T23:43:56Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: there is a distinct difference between #'apply and #'zastosuj and between #'funcall and #'wywolaj and between #'first and #'pierwszy. 2015-11-04T23:44:11Z phoe_krk: mostly for people who *don't* know English so they can't grasp Lisp because of the language barrier. 2015-11-04T23:44:11Z pjb: For true you can usually use another symbol (defconstant vrai 'vrai) would do. Only you wouldn't pass "true" to format. but CL:T for "Terminal" :-) 2015-11-04T23:44:19Z adonis joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:44:21Z phoe_krk: and it's not the kind of the language barrier you'd instantly think of. 2015-11-04T23:44:37Z phoe_krk: ...don't tell me the "t" in format is for Terminal 2015-11-04T23:44:42Z pjb: It does. 2015-11-04T23:44:53Z phoe_krk: daily Lisp surprise: check' 2015-11-04T23:44:58Z adonis left #lisp 2015-11-04T23:45:58Z pjb: Well, actually it's *standard-output* it seems. 2015-11-04T23:46:01Z mordocai quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-04T23:46:35Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm "If destination is t, the output is sent to standard output." 2015-11-04T23:47:39Z pjb: But for PRINT etc, T is a designator for *terminal-io*. 2015-11-04T23:47:43Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#stream_designator 2015-11-04T23:47:53Z phoe_krk: Got it. 2015-11-04T23:48:32Z phoe_krk: my head just imagined an infinite macroexpand recursion 2015-11-04T23:49:25Z pjb: (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (format T "To the bin.") (princ "To the terminal" T)) 2015-11-04T23:50:25Z phoe_krk: "Now, let's see if you can print things in Lisp without using format." 2015-11-04T23:50:51Z pjb: So, how do you translate car cdr caar cadr etc? 2015-11-04T23:50:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:51:44Z phoe_krk: I translate first second third rest last for sure. 2015-11-04T23:53:14Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:53:23Z phoe_krk: cWXYZr I think I'll translate as para-WXYZ, where para means pair and A/D will be translated to L/P. 2015-11-04T23:53:30Z phoe_krk: lewo/prawo = left/right. 2015-11-04T23:53:39Z phoe_krk: With the box notation, I hope it will be easy enough. 2015-11-04T23:54:42Z Bicyclidine: those don't mean anything in english either, why not stick with them. 2015-11-04T23:54:43Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:54:46Z phoe_krk: and I'll try to capitalize the L/P wherever possible for clarity, mostly in handwritten code. 2015-11-04T23:55:03Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: How much work would it take to run ECL as a kernel module? 2015-11-04T23:55:12Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-04T23:55:26Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: a challenger appears 2015-11-04T23:55:41Z Bicyclidine: that sounds dangerous, to say the least... 2015-11-04T23:55:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:56:04Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: to someone who isn't a programmer or lisper, I'd actually make a translation to something that points towards a pair. 2015-11-04T23:56:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, if you wanted a easy way to experiment with device drivers . . . 2015-11-04T23:56:16Z phoe_krk: since a pair is also a fundamental lisp object. 2015-11-04T23:56:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just think, you could run swank insider the Linux kernel :) 2015-11-04T23:56:28Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-04T23:56:29Z Bicyclidine: i mean, we call them conses, is all 2015-11-04T23:56:41Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: precisely, and I'll call them "pary" 2015-11-04T23:56:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: . . . at a coffee shop over an insecure connection :) 2015-11-04T23:56:49Z phoe_krk: (cons 1 2) = (para 1 2) 2015-11-04T23:57:02Z phoe_krk: (para-L (para 3 4)) => 3, obviously 2015-11-04T23:57:16Z phoe_krk: cdr car cons vs para-P para-L para 2015-11-04T23:57:22Z Bicyclidine: but we do fine with these meaningless words, because we learn what they mean in a lisp context. is all. 2015-11-04T23:57:38Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: yes, you do fine. I don't translate this for lispers. 2015-11-04T23:57:49Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: you're not my target audience. :P 2015-11-04T23:57:56Z Bicyclidine: when i was learning, to 2015-11-04T23:57:57Z Bicyclidine: too* 2015-11-04T23:59:53Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-05T00:00:02Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: here is where I'd bend a language towards the learners instead of the other way around 2015-11-05T00:00:07Z phoe_krk: anyway it's 1 AM for me, night everyone 2015-11-05T00:00:11Z phoe_krk: see you later 2015-11-05T00:01:03Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: there's also another way to deal with it: run the linux kernel INSIDE ecl. Something like this was done with sbcl and usb drivers. (I'm thinking about user-mode-linux here, you already have half the job done). 2015-11-05T00:01:25Z nyef: What's this about SBCL and USB drivers? 2015-11-05T00:01:49Z pjb: The doing evil things with lisp paper. 2015-11-05T00:02:03Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T00:02:04Z nyef: ... not ringing a bell, unfortunately. 2015-11-05T00:02:09Z pjb: http://www.xach.com/lisp/lispvan-2008-02-28.pdf 2015-11-05T00:02:22Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T00:05:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-05T00:05:38Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T00:05:46Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-05T00:06:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that wouldn 2015-11-05T00:07:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: 't get lisp any closer to the metal 2015-11-05T00:08:02Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-05T00:08:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it would be interesting, especially for reverse-engineering things. 2015-11-05T00:23:53Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T00:24:58Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T00:27:50Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T00:31:18Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I was afraid I had missed some essential cl web framework :) 2015-11-05T03:03:01Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:04:24Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:04:59Z aiwaz is now known as pid0 2015-11-05T03:05:59Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:06:16Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:06:43Z pid0 is now known as apep 2015-11-05T03:07:27Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:07:55Z maracuja quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-05T03:13:49Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:14:08Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:16:24Z tristero quit (Quit: tristero) 2015-11-05T03:16:26Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:16:48Z apep is now known as aiwaz 2015-11-05T03:18:50Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:27:48Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:31:31Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:32:22Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T03:32:46Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T03:34:24Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:35:46Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:37:22Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-05T03:46:19Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:47:02Z holycow: dim, i ran into an irc post of your online about you wanting to write a game to teach lisp programming. just curious if you ever did anything with that? 2015-11-05T03:47:58Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:49:10Z MrWoohoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-05T03:49:10Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-05T03:51:09Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:51:11Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:53:01Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:53:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:54:09Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:54:41Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T03:57:21Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T03:59:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T04:01:34Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The live demo went pretty well, SLDB only came up once. 2015-11-05T05:48:25Z drmeister: Hi loke 2015-11-05T05:48:38Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations! 2015-11-05T05:48:39Z loke: drmeister: Any news when it comes to clasp compilation? 2015-11-05T05:49:07Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-05T05:49:09Z drmeister: It's a group of about 30 computational chemistry graduate students and post-docs. I was showing them Cando and some of what it can do. 2015-11-05T05:49:58Z beach: That's a fairly decent crowd. 2015-11-05T05:50:29Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T05:50:41Z drmeister: loke: I don't recall where we left things but I've ported Clasp to LLVM3.7 (I think you knew that). I haven't fixed the include paths yet. I'll get back on it in the next couple of days. 2015-11-05T05:51:08Z loke: drmeister: still the same git branch? 2015-11-05T05:51:31Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-11-05T05:51:39Z drmeister: beach: I took them through this demo: 2015-11-05T05:51:42Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/244pBVUv/ 2015-11-05T05:52:00Z drmeister: It builds a complex molecule using a combination of three different approaches. 2015-11-05T05:52:49Z beach: Nice! 2015-11-05T05:53:32Z drmeister: Yeah, the cclasp compiler is really peppy now. It takes about 1-2 seconds to compile a typical form in slime. 2015-11-05T05:53:33Z beach: Did they know to expect all the parentheses? 2015-11-05T05:53:51Z beach: I guess they are way too polite to say anything about them anyway, huh? 2015-11-05T05:53:52Z drmeister: I just rolled past that. 2015-11-05T05:54:35Z drmeister: I said "In this day and age of Javascript, PHP, Perl, R - nobody can criticize the syntax of a language anymore". 2015-11-05T05:55:03Z beach: Heh! Good one. 2015-11-05T05:55:43Z loke: I never had anything to do with the parens 2015-11-05T05:56:05Z loke: The fact that Clojure is popular proves that. It's a worst-of-both-worlds chimera of a language. 2015-11-05T05:56:34Z drmeister: There you go, Clojure is another example. 2015-11-05T05:56:36Z loke: drmeister: The error I'm getting now with the latest version: 2015-11-05T05:56:37Z loke: In file included from ../../src/asttooling/clangTooling.cc:62: 2015-11-05T05:56:37Z loke: ../../include/clasp/llvmo/llvmoExpose.h:49:10: fatal error: 'llvm/PassManager.h' file not found 2015-11-05T05:57:02Z drmeister: Yeah, PassManager.h moved. 2015-11-05T05:57:05Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-05T05:57:10Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-05T05:59:31Z loke: drmeister: To where? 2015-11-05T06:00:00Z loke: should I juts symlink Passmaanger.h to ..? 2015-11-05T06:00:12Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:00:23Z drmeister: loke: I just merged the latest changes from "dev" (llvm3.6) into "dev_37" (llvm3.7) and I'll try building it and see if I can fix that. 2015-11-05T06:00:47Z drmeister: I think it moved to llvm/IR/PassManager.h 2015-11-05T06:00:58Z javalava is now known as eyehatejava 2015-11-05T06:01:04Z loke: Yeah, I tried changing that but then I got lots of other errors. 2015-11-05T06:01:16Z drmeister: Yes, that's where it moved to. 2015-11-05T06:01:27Z drmeister: I'll try building it overnight and see if I can clean it up. 2015-11-05T06:01:59Z loke: OK, it seems as though not only did the file move, its namespace also mvoed. 2015-11-05T06:03:09Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:03:38Z drmeister: Yeah - and that's stuff that I'll have to mess with. I've upgraded clasp to different version of llvm since before 3.0. It's always painful. 2015-11-05T06:03:50Z drmeister: That's what it's like on the bleadin' edge. 2015-11-05T06:04:02Z beach: Hence "welcome to my world". 2015-11-05T06:04:11Z loke: drmeister: Sounds like llvm really isn't stable and mature yet? 2015-11-05T06:04:31Z White_Flame: llvm is a moving target 2015-11-05T06:04:45Z drmeister: It's the basis of Clang and that's the basis of a lot of technologies. 2015-11-05T06:04:53Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T06:05:01Z drmeister: It's under very active development at Google, Apple and Sony among others. 2015-11-05T06:05:01Z loke: So why isn't it mature then? 2015-11-05T06:05:02Z rvb joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:05:48Z drmeister: They are advancing the technology and concerns like "users" and "backwards compatibility" are quaint and amusing to them. 2015-11-05T06:05:56Z JuanDaugherty: funweb is not only "not out" but "under wraps"? 2015-11-05T06:06:17Z loke: what is funweb? 2015-11-05T06:06:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:06:19Z drmeister: loke: It is mature - and getting more mature all the time :-) 2015-11-05T06:06:49Z loke heads out for lunch 2015-11-05T06:07:03Z JuanDaugherty: loke, just before you entered in log 2015-11-05T06:07:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:07:57Z loke: Hmm 2015-11-05T06:08:01Z loke: Funweb seems to be a virus 2015-11-05T06:08:23Z loke: http://www.pandasecurity.com/homeusers/security-info/44952/information/FunWeb 2015-11-05T06:09:17Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-05T06:09:20Z JuanDaugherty: i meant the term as it was used in this channel before you entered 2015-11-05T06:11:03Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:13:06Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:13:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:18:24Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:22:53Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:26:21Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-05T06:26:46Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:26:57Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:31:00Z mordocai quit (Quit: sleep) 2015-11-05T06:33:10Z drmeister: loke: I fixed all the include paths for PassManager.h but there are some other things missing that I need to update for llvm37 that reveal themselves. I'll try running the static analyzer tomorrow and update everything. I say "try" because I'm having trouble with include paths for the static analyzer as well. 2015-11-05T06:35:26Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-05T06:37:28Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-05T06:46:11Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:46:47Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T06:49:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T06:55:19Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-05T06:57:38Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-05T06:59:52Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:00:47Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:02:45Z rvb left #lisp 2015-11-05T07:02:46Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:04:12Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:04:46Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:05:08Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:05:10Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:05:40Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-05T07:08:30Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: actually I plan to write a proof of concept device driver for minix 2015-11-05T07:08:36Z jackdaniel: because it's more userspace 2015-11-05T07:08:37Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:09:29Z jackdaniel: regarding modules it would take a bit since you'll have to statically link everything (libc included) and modify some system interfaces (no printf for instance) 2015-11-05T07:11:18Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:16:41Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:17:26Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:20:08Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:20:38Z DynamicMetaFlow quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:21:10Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:21:12Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T07:24:34Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:26:37Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-05T07:27:02Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:28:19Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:29:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:30:56Z dstatyvka left #lisp 2015-11-05T07:32:59Z treaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:34:08Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:34:57Z sepi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T07:34:59Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:35:08Z sepi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:35:29Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T07:35:40Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:35:40Z cmpitg joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:39:01Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T07:39:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:39:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:43:26Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:44:45Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:45:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:46:36Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:46:58Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-05T07:49:03Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-05T07:53:06Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T07:53:30Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:00:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:01:49Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:01:52Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:01:59Z fridim_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T08:02:10Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:03:40Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:06:11Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:07:14Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T08:20:05Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:25:26Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-05T08:29:02Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:29:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:31:13Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:32:09Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:32:45Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:33:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:35:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:38:27Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:40:19Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:40:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:42:09Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:45:28Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-05T08:46:49Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:48:24Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:49:33Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:52:10Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:53:43Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:53:57Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-05T08:58:06Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T08:58:25Z pyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-05T09:00:03Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:01:52Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:03:18Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:05:49Z remi`bd: Congratulations for the new release! The features list is extremely impressive. 2015-11-05T09:08:23Z remi`bd: oops 2015-11-05T09:08:27Z remi`bd: wrong channel >< 2015-11-05T09:08:44Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:08:47Z jackdaniel: you mean guile? 2015-11-05T09:11:00Z remi`bd: yes 2015-11-05T09:15:23Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:16:55Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-05T09:17:27Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T09:21:40Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:24:03Z eyehatejava is now known as aiwaz 2015-11-05T09:24:12Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:24:35Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:27:23Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:30:52Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-05T09:33:54Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:35:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:43:08Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-05T09:44:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:48:55Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:50:02Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:51:15Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:51:56Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:54:20Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T09:55:36Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:56:10Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T09:56:36Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:59:10Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T09:59:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:00:37Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:02:03Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:02:58Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:05:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:05:39Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:07:00Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:11:34Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:12:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:13:17Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:17:54Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:19:52Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:22:12Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:39:06Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:40:51Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:41:27Z otwieracz: Is this possible to sum values in LOOP into plist? 2015-11-05T10:41:31Z otwieracz: Something like: 2015-11-05T10:41:59Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:43:07Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158544 2015-11-05T10:43:18Z otwieracz: But this, obviously, does not work. 2015-11-05T10:43:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:44:42Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:44:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:44:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T10:45:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:45:38Z Shinmera: (loop with plist = () for x in list do (incf (getf plist x 0)) finally (return plist)) 2015-11-05T10:47:14Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-05T10:47:26Z otwieracz: With count it will be just beautiful :) 2015-11-05T10:47:40Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T10:48:28Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T10:49:13Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:50:22Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-05T10:51:16Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:52:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:53:36Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T10:54:14Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:54:46Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-05T10:55:43Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:00:09Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:01:53Z otwieracz: And do you see any way of optimizing this: 2015-11-05T11:01:54Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158545 2015-11-05T11:02:05Z otwieracz: (I do not like nested loop under finally) 2015-11-05T11:02:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:06:54Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:12:51Z anddam quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:13:23Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T11:13:44Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:14:55Z pyon quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-11-05T11:15:17Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:35:27Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:36:11Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:37:57Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:44:58Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T11:45:22Z nyef: G'morning all 2015-11-05T11:45:29Z Shinmera: Hello nyef 2015-11-05T11:45:52Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-05T11:46:59Z dlowe: phf: it was less gratuitous than you think, and the api wasn't guaranteed stable at the time. 2015-11-05T11:48:26Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:49:10Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T11:50:24Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T11:59:12Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-05T11:59:28Z hippo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:02:41Z nyef: Lord_Nightmare: No, no further progress on Nevermore. There was a reason why I was building it (and exploiter before it), and I realized about fifteen minutes before it booted to Lisp (and about thirty to forty-five minutes before Meroko booted to Lisp) that that reason no longer applied. I haven't really done much with it since. 2015-11-05T12:07:00Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:07:50Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T12:08:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T12:08:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:09:48Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:15:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:16:48Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:19:40Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:20:14Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-11-05T12:20:14Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:22:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:22:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-05T12:22:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:25:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T12:25:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T12:27:27Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:28:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:29:00Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T12:31:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:32:44Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:33:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T12:33:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:35:13Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-05T12:36:18Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:38:12Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:45:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T12:45:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:46:23Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T12:49:46Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T12:50:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:51:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T12:52:15Z anddam joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:52:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:52:44Z CharlesN quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T12:53:51Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:56:18Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-05T12:59:36Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:01:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T13:01:50Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T13:03:18Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-11-05T13:05:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:06:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:07:00Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:07:06Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:07:12Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T13:07:46Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:08:01Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:11:06Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:12:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:19:38Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:24:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:29:59Z hippo left #lisp 2015-11-05T13:32:30Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:33:19Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:34:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:39:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:41:22Z userm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T13:41:45Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:44:33Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:46:49Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:51:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T13:52:37Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T13:52:50Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T13:55:26Z pjb: minion: memo for holycow: have a look at: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman 2015-11-05T13:55:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell holycow when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-05T13:55:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-05T13:56:23Z ryu0: i've been used to using imperative loops (for, while, ...) for some time. would it be a good idea for me to try using CL functional alternatives such as map? 2015-11-05T13:57:21Z flip214: ryu0: yes. if they fit, use them. 2015-11-05T13:57:43Z ryu0: i don't know what it is fully capable of, but i'll find out in due time. 2015-11-05T13:58:12Z flip214: please note that common lisp has LOOP, and an additional library ITERATE, that provide "manual" iteration constructs for more complex cases than the MAP* functions can handle. 2015-11-05T13:58:48Z ryu0: i already thought of something. something like sed transliterate could be handled by map if the string is handled as if a list of character. 2015-11-05T14:00:02Z ryu0: flip214: i assume map can work with any kind of "stream of input", not just lists? 2015-11-05T14:00:28Z flip214: clhs map 2015-11-05T14:00:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 2015-11-05T14:00:43Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T14:00:59Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-05T14:01:02Z ryu0: sequence. 2015-11-05T14:01:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-05T14:01:04Z flip214: this says "sequence", and the link below goes to "proper sequences" => "proper sequence n. a sequence which is not an improper list; that is, a vector or a proper list. " 2015-11-05T14:01:18Z flip214: so, "streams" are out. 2015-11-05T14:01:19Z pjb: ryu0: you could even invent your own high level functions! 2015-11-05T14:01:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T14:01:34Z flip214: there are stream mapping functions too; but I'd suggest to look at LOOP and/or ITERATE. 2015-11-05T14:01:48Z pjb: ryu0: you should read https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Backus78.pdf 2015-11-05T14:01:50Z ryu0: huh. k. 2015-11-05T14:02:22Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-05T14:02:36Z ryu0: ! 2015-11-05T14:02:39Z ryu0: Pascal. 2015-11-05T14:02:47Z ryu0: or something like it. 2015-11-05T14:03:39Z flip214: I thought the wine of god is called bacchus? 2015-11-05T14:03:45Z ryu0: huh. some of this... psuedo code? looks like pascal. 2015-11-05T14:05:29Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-11-05T14:06:06Z ryu0: inherent defects at the most basic level? hm. 2015-11-05T14:06:44Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T14:08:21Z Cymew quit (Ping 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It's in code that's supposed to have worked at some stage though. 2015-11-05T16:30:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:30:31Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:30:55Z ghard: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158568 2015-11-05T16:32:20Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-05T16:33:56Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:34:21Z ghard: Anybody understand what's going on there? Looks like a problem with multiple-values-bind. 2015-11-05T16:35:08Z Xach: ghard: the problem is inside CREATE-PARAMETER. 2015-11-05T16:35:21Z resttime: ghard: What I see different is that you're calling CREATE-PARAMETER not with a string 2015-11-05T16:35:47Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:35:57Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-05T16:35:58Z ghard: It looks to me like the argument bindings are wrong there. 2015-11-05T16:36:47Z Xach: ghard: Can you please show how you call PREPARE-STATEMENT? 2015-11-05T16:37:11Z Xach: It's cut off in the backtrace. 2015-11-05T16:37:25Z ghard: (setf *stm* (prepare-statement *conn* "insert into xtst (n,s) values (?,?)" '((:integer :in) (:string)))) 2015-11-05T16:37:27Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:38:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:38:48Z ghard: So the test snippet outputs what I'd expected. When it's in the function I get argunment bindings for first create-parameter call mangled. 2015-11-05T16:39:12Z ghard: The prepare-statement function is part of plain-odbc 2015-11-05T16:39:44Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-05T16:41:05Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-05T16:41:24Z Xach: ghard: With a param like that, (first param) => (:INTEGER :IN), (second param) => (:STRING), (rest (rest param)) => NIL. 2015-11-05T16:41:34Z resttime: Try (apply #'create-parameter query pos type direction args) 2015-11-05T16:41:36Z low-prof1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:41:52Z Xach: I don't know anything about plain-odbc, but it seems like :IN is meant to be the direction? 2015-11-05T16:43:22Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:44:59Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T16:45:04Z ghard: Xach: Yes 2015-11-05T16:45:52Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:46:19Z Xach: ghard: is the (:STRING) bit meant to be a separate param entirely? or part of the first one? 2015-11-05T16:46:43Z ghard: And I think '((:x :y :z) (:x2 :y2 :z2)) should in this case cause 2 calls to create-parameter with type=:x direction=:y args=:z in the first, second list second time. 2015-11-05T16:47:10Z ghard: See there's a kind of default handling in the if 2015-11-05T16:47:25Z Xach: ghard: No, that's not correct. 2015-11-05T16:47:59Z Xach: ghard: PREPARE-STATEMENT takes a &rest parameter, so if you pass a quoted list, that list becomes wrapped in another list. 2015-11-05T16:48:20Z ghard: Ouch 2015-11-05T16:48:38Z Xach: if you keep it as-is, the arguments would be '(:x :y :z) followed by '(:x2 :y2 :z2), or you could omit &rest and make the parameter list at the call site. 2015-11-05T16:49:00Z ghard: Haha. Now it's obvious I was chasing a red herring there. Thanks! 2015-11-05T16:50:17Z Xach: no problem. some of that info is hinted at by the backtrace. 2015-11-05T16:50:19Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:50:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:51:26Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:52:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:18Z mal1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:23Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:52:27Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:28Z sbryant_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:33Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-05T16:52:43Z gaya-1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:48Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:52:53Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:53:27Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T16:53:30Z cods_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:53:38Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T16:53:50Z wglb` joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:53:54Z nefercheprure joined #lisp 2015-11-05T16:54:05Z arnsholt_ joined #lisp 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There's some minor remaining issues, but we're moving pretty close to a release now. 2015-11-05T17:10:05Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:10:07Z Xach: cool! 2015-11-05T17:11:04Z cosarara left #lisp 2015-11-05T17:14:49Z Fleurety_ is now known as Fleurety 2015-11-05T17:16:35Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:16:51Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:24:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:24:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-05T17:24:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:25:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:25:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:26:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:28:26Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:28:26Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:29:30Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:31:21Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:32:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:33:13Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:33:26Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:33:30Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:33:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:34:46Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:40:11Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:40:13Z hippo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:40:22Z tetheno quit (Quit: Oh, jolly good show!) 2015-11-05T17:40:29Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:41:39Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:43:36Z jocuman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:44:02Z hippo_ left #lisp 2015-11-05T17:45:01Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:45:28Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-05T17:46:03Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:46:13Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-05T17:46:50Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:47:04Z schoppenhauer: hi. question: is postmortem threadsafe? that is, if I use it inside hunchentoot, and start a connection before initializing the hunchentoot-server, and then use this connection through all threads, will this work? 2015-11-05T17:48:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:48:59Z Shinmera: What's postmortem? 2015-11-05T17:49:56Z tetheno quit (Quit: Oh, jolly good show!) 2015-11-05T17:49:56Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T17:50:14Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-05T17:50:22Z tetheno quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T17:50:54Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-05T18:15:10Z schoppenhauer: anyone? 2015-11-05T18:15:20Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: yes, it is. 2015-11-05T18:15:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:15:51Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: if in doubt, consult the source. look for postmodern-thread-safe and how that conditionalized code is used in cl-postgres:exec-query 2015-11-05T18:17:00Z schoppenhauer: H4ns: hm. ok. well the thing is then … what if the database is restarted? will postmodern automatically reconnect? 2015-11-05T18:17:38Z BWV988 left #lisp 2015-11-05T18:18:17Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: no. in general, if you need to know such things, the best thing is to look at the source and experiment on the repl. 2015-11-05T18:18:38Z schoppenhauer: H4ns: experimenting with the repl… ok, then I will have to set up a local postgres db 2015-11-05T18:18:51Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: but i can assure you that a connection is not automatically re-established when the db-server restarts. 2015-11-05T18:19:25Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-05T18:19:28Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: yes. that'd be adviseable in any case. 2015-11-05T18:20:13Z H4ns: schoppenhauer: if you want to avoid setting postgres up, you can also use an ssh tunnel to your db server and then kill the ssh connection. that'll look like a database crash to the client side. 2015-11-05T18:20:49Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:21:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:24:01Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:24:46Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:25:03Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:25:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T18:25:26Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:25:39Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-05T18:25:46Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T18:26:35Z roo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:26:51Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:27:09Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:27:34Z DANtheBE- is now known as DANtheBEASTman 2015-11-05T18:28:09Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:29:41Z jesse_m joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:31:36Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:31:59Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-05T18:32:59Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:33:26Z tetheno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T18:34:01Z tetheno joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:34:25Z jesse_m left #lisp 2015-11-05T18:35:11Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:35:17Z badkins is now known as atomgiant 2015-11-05T18:36:00Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:36:13Z atomgiant is now known as badkins_ 2015-11-05T18:37:00Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-11-05T18:39:06Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:39:42Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:40:25Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:40:27Z dash joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:40:40Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:41:30Z dash: anybody know if sbcl's thread-local storage size is configurable? i am trying to revive a lisp program written a few years ago and i'm running into "thread local storage exhausted" 2015-11-05T18:41:55Z dash: i believe the code is probably correct otherwise, so I'm wondering if I can just tweak some limit and try again 2015-11-05T18:42:05Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-05T18:42:05Z Raimondi quit (Quit: The road to wisdom?—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein) 2015-11-05T18:42:23Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:42:33Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:43:58Z shka: dash: stack size? 2015-11-05T18:44:26Z zerac quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:44:26Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:44:40Z trn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T18:44:42Z GUEST_4567345 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:44:47Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:44:48Z reg_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:45:02Z Draz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T18:45:04Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:45:06Z dash: shka: hmm, just in the OS's ulimit? worth a try 2015-11-05T18:45:20Z shka: dash: i really don't know 2015-11-05T18:45:26Z Raimondi quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-05T18:45:34Z shka: just a shot 2015-11-05T18:45:41Z jackc- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T18:46:20Z reggy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:46:20Z arnsholt_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:46:27Z arnsholt joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:46:49Z scymtym: dash: can you paste the full error message and, if possible, a recipe for reproducing the error on paste.lisp.org 2015-11-05T18:46:54Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:47:02Z zerac joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:47:30Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:47:31Z GUEST_4567345 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-05T18:47:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:47:45Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:47:50Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:48:45Z jackc- joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:49:00Z dash: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158577 2015-11-05T18:49:11Z dash: scymtym: code lives here: https://github.com/kpreid/e-on-cl 2015-11-05T18:49:21Z scymtym: dash: thank you 2015-11-05T18:49:23Z dash: my recipe for reproducing this is still incomplete 2015-11-05T18:49:30Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:49:52Z dash: (depends on some other local files) 2015-11-05T18:50:02Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-05T18:50:12Z shka: btw 2015-11-05T18:50:13Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:50:16Z shka: i have silly question 2015-11-05T18:50:19Z shka: (declare (type (function (* *) symbol) comparsion-fn)) 2015-11-05T18:50:59Z shka: according to my understanding function is just another type, so i can declare callback type like this in my defun 2015-11-05T18:51:03Z shka: is that corret? 2015-11-05T18:51:17Z shka: pardon my ignorance 2015-11-05T18:51:28Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:51:37Z shka: but i'm confused by ftype 2015-11-05T18:51:51Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:52:35Z dash: scymtym: any suggestions for further investigation? 2015-11-05T18:52:48Z Xach: shka: I don't use these kinds of declarations, but a glance at the spec suggests FTYPE is for function bindings, not variable bindings. 2015-11-05T18:53:15Z shka: Xach: that's my impression as well 2015-11-05T18:53:18Z scymtym: dash: nothing comes to mind immediately. maybe ask in #sbcl 2015-11-05T18:53:20Z Xach: shka: so if your function is passed and is bound to a variable, TYPE is appropriate. but if it is global via defun/defgeneric or local via flet/labels you would use FTYPE. 2015-11-05T18:53:23Z dash: scymtym: a little research suggests that tls space is constrained by number of special variables 2015-11-05T18:53:32Z dash: scymtym: oh, hey, didn't know that was a thing. 2015-11-05T18:53:36Z dash: thanks. 2015-11-05T18:53:50Z shka: that's actually interesting 2015-11-05T18:54:28Z shka: what will happen if you declare ftype of global function in lexical scope 2015-11-05T18:54:47Z Xach: I don't know, sorry. Like I said, I never make such declarations. 2015-11-05T18:54:48Z shka: let's say that this function can return multiple types 2015-11-05T18:54:57Z Xach: What do you hope to achieve by making them? 2015-11-05T18:55:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:55:21Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:55:27Z shka: well, i'm using mostly sbcl 2015-11-05T18:55:29Z jasom: shka: if the declaration isn't true, then it's not well defined what will happen; if it is true, then everything will work 2015-11-05T18:55:59Z shka: and sbcl on the debug mode will actually put assertions for types 2015-11-05T18:56:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T18:56:13Z shka: i'm using type declarations for this reason 2015-11-05T18:56:29Z Xach: Does it work in this case? 2015-11-05T18:56:39Z shka: i really, really, really don't like accidently passing wrong type to function 2015-11-05T18:56:56Z shka: i'm just checking 2015-11-05T18:57:37Z rotty quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-11-05T18:58:30Z jasom: shka: IIRC on sbcl it will act as though the ftype declared is active for the lexical scope of the declare; I do not believe it will add type assertions to the function calls in that scope though 2015-11-05T18:58:41Z shka: Xach: it seems that assertions are not added 2015-11-05T18:58:48Z shka: jasom: thank you 2015-11-05T18:58:49Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:59:00Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-05T18:59:19Z shka: well, at the very least it will make easier to see what is happening 2015-11-05T18:59:35Z shka: i'm having harder time without type declarations 2015-11-05T18:59:46Z shka: i'm not used to dynamic typing 2015-11-05T19:00:12Z Xach: they will also make it harder to change 2015-11-05T19:00:51Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T19:00:54Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:01:25Z shka: well, yes 2015-11-05T19:01:47Z shka: but the good thing about cl is that i have a choice 2015-11-05T19:02:02Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-05T19:02:15Z shka: if i want to do functional programming, i can do that 2015-11-05T19:02:23Z shka: if i want to do oop i can do that 2015-11-05T19:02:37Z Xach: therefore it is only peer pressure that keeps deviants in line 2015-11-05T19:02:44Z Xach: get with the program! c'mon! 2015-11-05T19:03:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T19:03:34Z shka: well, i don't need to add this EVERYWHERE 2015-11-05T19:03:51Z shka: but i find it quite usefull 2015-11-05T19:04:00Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:04:28Z shka: and I would rather avoid writing functions that may return multiple, unreleated types 2015-11-05T19:04:37Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:04:40Z shka: or things like that 2015-11-05T19:05:47Z nefercheprure is now known as TMA 2015-11-05T19:07:49Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:11:29Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T19:12:13Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-05T19:13:10Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:13:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: will ECL build against a micro-libc like newlib? 2015-11-05T19:17:11Z farhaven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:17:13Z farhaven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T19:18:02Z farhaven_ is now known as farhaven 2015-11-05T19:19:53Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-11-05T19:20:20Z pyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! 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What do you run? 2015-11-05T20:35:41Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:35:44Z ryu0: faalentijn: vim + whatever other i need. i've grown fond of vim from my years working with C and other unix types of things. 2015-11-05T20:35:44Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-05T20:35:57Z TMM: I use vim usually only for fairly simple editing, although that does it no justice I know it has a lot of features 2015-11-05T20:36:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T20:36:10Z TMM: I don't know why I never bothered to learn any of the advanced features 2015-11-05T20:36:25Z ryu0: faalentijn: i hated it at first. it follows its own UI conventions. 2015-11-05T20:36:30Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-05T20:36:45Z ryu0: nothing like the first editors i used on windows. 2015-11-05T20:36:55Z faalentijn: I use vim for quick console editing (although I now aliased it to emacs + evil) and emacs for big work. 2015-11-05T20:37:08Z ryu0: i wonder if vile is any good. 2015-11-05T20:37:12Z ryu0: a vi clone called 2015-11-05T20:37:15Z ryu0: vi like emacs. 2015-11-05T20:37:21Z ryu0: (vile) 2015-11-05T20:37:28Z faalentijn: Yeah I loved vim for the first year or so I loved Linux. Gvim just sucked and I wanted a good X11 editor 2015-11-05T20:37:46Z ryu0: one of these days i'll read the vim book. 2015-11-05T20:38:01Z faalentijn: ryu0: viper is pretty good but it's way to emulate-y for me. Evil-mode is more liked overall in the Emacs community since it also allows some vim-plugins to run. 2015-11-05T20:38:15Z faalentijn: https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs 2015-11-05T20:38:28Z faalentijn: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Evil 2015-11-05T20:38:42Z ryu0: http://invisible-island.net/vile/ 2015-11-05T20:39:10Z ryu0: okay, so it's not a vi clone. but i thought it was. anyway. 2015-11-05T20:39:14Z dash left #lisp 2015-11-05T20:39:59Z erif546 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-05T20:40:28Z faalentijn: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/viper.html 2015-11-05T20:40:38Z pjb: minion: memo for shka: if you really, really, really don't like accidently passing wrong type to function and just want to check, then don't use declarations! Use CHECK-TYPE. 2015-11-05T20:40:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-05T20:41:14Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:43:17Z pjb: minion: memo for shka: and then, while you can always try to declare or check the type of functions, the standard doesn't require implementation to check anything else than it to be a function. The exact signature can be ignored, and will probably be on most implementations. Furthermore, in general, symbols designating functions are as good as functions so you would want to (check-type compare-fn (or function symbol)), nothing more, 2015-11-05T20:43:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-05T20:43:17Z pjb: but no less. 2015-11-05T20:45:15Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T20:46:33Z pjb: minion: memo for shka: in lisp, all the types are related: they're all subtypes of T and supertypes of NIL! Therefore a function can never return values of unrelated types! 2015-11-05T20:46:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-05T20:47:23Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:47:36Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:48:46Z gaya-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-05T20:50:41Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:52:41Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: restart) 2015-11-05T20:52:54Z cyraxjoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-05T20:53:22Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:53:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:55:36Z fe[nl]ix: Quadrescence: ping 2015-11-05T20:56:26Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-05T20:56:52Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T20:57:57Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:00:47Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:01:25Z milkseaweed joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:06:22Z nedbat joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:06:28Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:06:55Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:07:01Z nedbat left #lisp 2015-11-05T21:07:27Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-05T21:08:20Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:08:21Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:09:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:12:33Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T21:12:38Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:13:26Z milkseaweed quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-05T21:14:50Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:17:33Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-05T21:18:51Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:20:15Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:30:42Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T21:32:59Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:34:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T21:35:57Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-05T21:37:52Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:38:35Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T21:41:20Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:42:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:44:23Z jmo joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:44:45Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:44:46Z jmo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-05T21:45:34Z ozihcs quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-05T21:45:55Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:49:36Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:51:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:53:37Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:54:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:54:54Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:57:54Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-05T21:58:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-05T21:59:20Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Was kindof looking forward to seeing you at a boston lisp meeting this month. 2015-11-06T00:25:03Z Xach: they're just not as special when they are regularly held! 2015-11-06T00:25:25Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:26:42Z nyef: Quadresce: With SBCL, if you're not going to be holding that array-internal pointer long, you can pin the vector. 2015-11-06T00:28:10Z nyef: On non-x86oid gencgc systems, you might even be able to arrange for the vector to be pinned permanently by mutating the pin list. 2015-11-06T00:28:43Z nyef: (On x86oids, pinning relies on the conservatism of the control stack, not on an explicit pin list.) 2015-11-06T00:29:56Z Quadresce: interesting 2015-11-06T00:30:56Z nyef: Of course, on cheneygc systems, pinning is simulated by using WITHOUT-GCING. 2015-11-06T00:31:16Z nyef: Fortunately, cheneygc-only systems are a (slowly) dying breed in SBCL. 2015-11-06T00:34:39Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T00:35:34Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:35:55Z nyef: Ugh. I'm thinking of stupid lowlevel hack after stupid lowlevel hack for manipulating the GC behavior of an object at allocation time. 2015-11-06T00:35:58Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:36:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T00:36:20Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:39:26Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T00:39:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:42:43Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-06T00:48:06Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T00:49:38Z Quadresce: nyef, sounds great! 2015-11-06T00:49:40Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:52:11Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T00:52:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T00:54:28Z Quadresce quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T00:56:28Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:57:28Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T00:59:39Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T00:59:40Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-06T01:01:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:03:37Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:03:40Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:04:45Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:12:12Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T01:12:54Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:14:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T01:19:28Z pillton: Quadresce: CFFI has a macro called WITH-POINTER-TO-VECTOR-DATA. 2015-11-06T01:20:16Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:20:47Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T01:20:55Z pillton: There is a function in SBCL which allows you to get the underlying vector of a specific array. Let me know if you want it. 2015-11-06T01:21:22Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:22:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:22:24Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-11-06T01:24:18Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:25:59Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:26:24Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Network is unreachable) 2015-11-06T01:29:46Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T01:30:30Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:34:25Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:35:46Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:35:50Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:36:05Z MikeSeth_ is now known as MikeSeth 2015-11-06T01:36:32Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:36:36Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: live live live) 2015-11-06T01:37:26Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:39:41Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-06T01:43:54Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:45:03Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:46:25Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:47:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:50:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T01:50:50Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:51:12Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:57:13Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:57:57Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T01:58:23Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:59:33Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-11-06T01:59:58Z holycow is now known as Guest36012 2015-11-06T02:00:31Z Guest36012: hi guys. anyone remember the name of a text editor that i believe was created after emacs sometime in the 80's was coded in full lisp (maybe?) and is named if i remember correctly after a tree? 2015-11-06T02:00:44Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T02:00:54Z pjb: Hemlock 2015-11-06T02:01:00Z Guest36012: THATS IT! 2015-11-06T02:01:04Z Guest36012: thanks pjb ! 2015-11-06T02:01:12Z pjb: It's included in Clozure CL.app from the AppStore. 2015-11-06T02:01:23Z Guest36012: ohhhh .... THAT is where it is from. okay 2015-11-06T02:01:31Z pjb: Otherwise you can get it with quicklisp for X11, but it'd need some love. 2015-11-06T02:02:04Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:02:23Z pjb: Oh, also Qt, and tty: hemlock.clx hemlock.qt hemlock.tty 2015-11-06T02:02:34Z Guest36012: what? oh weird, did not know. 2015-11-06T02:03:21Z Guest36012: pjb: thank you for the tips. i have to run, i will be back later now that i have the notes on hemlock. 2015-11-06T02:03:27Z Guest36012 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-06T02:05:34Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T02:05:55Z drmeister: Xach: Are you online? 2015-11-06T02:06:11Z XachX: Ja 2015-11-06T02:06:15Z drmeister: I found a problem in clasp that is causing a problem with quicklisp - not quicklisp's fault. 2015-11-06T02:06:37Z XachX: My favorite kind of problem. Not mine! 2015-11-06T02:06:49Z loke: drmeister: hello! 2015-11-06T02:07:00Z drmeister: Hello loke 2015-11-06T02:07:01Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158602 2015-11-06T02:07:07Z loke: Xach: "Ja"? You speak swedish now? :-) 2015-11-06T02:07:21Z drmeister: XachX: What block does the (return ...) at the very bottom return from? 2015-11-06T02:07:39Z loke: drmeister: Should be the loop 2015-11-06T02:07:43Z drmeister: Ok 2015-11-06T02:07:56Z drmeister: Because in Clasp only one value is being returned - it's a nasty bug. 2015-11-06T02:08:04Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:08:12Z drmeister: I'm trying to reproduce it with a small test case 2015-11-06T02:08:42Z loke: drmeister: But the loop is not wrapped in a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND so I don't understand how the second value could be relevant? 2015-11-06T02:09:02Z drmeister: The caller expects the second return value 2015-11-06T02:09:16Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T02:09:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ynLesTkN/ 2015-11-06T02:09:35Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T02:09:47Z loke: drmeister: Ah OK, I see what you mean 2015-11-06T02:09:49Z loke: I misread 2015-11-06T02:10:18Z drmeister: (trace fetch) shows that only the first value is returned. 2015-11-06T02:10:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/vLoByj70/ 2015-11-06T02:10:24Z drmeister: That's a partial trace 2015-11-06T02:10:41Z drmeister: Line 15: | <3 (QL-HTTP:FETCH T) 2015-11-06T02:10:51Z drmeister: I'm trying to reproduce it with a smaller test case 2015-11-06T02:12:09Z tippenei1 is now known as tippenein 2015-11-06T02:12:20Z loke: So the problem is when a multiple value is returned from a loop form? 2015-11-06T02:12:36Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:12:44Z loke: So if you change the RETURN (values... to (RETURN-FROM fetch (values... it will work? 2015-11-06T02:13:39Z briantrice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:13:45Z drmeister: I'll try that 2015-11-06T02:13:49Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:14:05Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:14:15Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:14:24Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:16:14Z harish quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-06T02:16:31Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:16:49Z CharlesN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T02:18:36Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:18:40Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:19:59Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T02:21:57Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:24:52Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:27:46Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T02:29:39Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:30:07Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:31:24Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:32:29Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:33:06Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-06T02:33:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/vLoByj70/ 2015-11-06T02:33:45Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:34:41Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:38:12Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:38:21Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T02:39:28Z Bike: seems like your return-from is broken, then... 2015-11-06T02:39:35Z nedbat left #lisp 2015-11-06T02:40:05Z loke: Hello Bike: http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/88/6488-004-96D89FFF.jpg 2015-11-06T02:40:43Z Bike: hello 2015-11-06T02:41:05Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T02:41:29Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:41:50Z pocket quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T02:42:41Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T03:01:54Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T03:02:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T03:05:19Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:10:38Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:11:12Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:15:25Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T03:22:19Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:26:00Z drmeister: Stassats found a great test case and I tracked the problem down. 2015-11-06T03:27:20Z drmeister: XachX: Is there a way to force (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") to update? 2015-11-06T03:27:20Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:27:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:27:50Z Xach: drmeister: I'm not sure what you mean by that. It updates every time it is run. 2015-11-06T03:27:56Z drmeister: I discovered a problem while running (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") and I had to shutdown and start it again and now it says that I already have the latest version. 2015-11-06T03:27:57Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T03:28:04Z Xach: drmeister: Ok, then you have the latest version. 2015-11-06T03:28:09Z drmeister: Shoot. 2015-11-06T03:28:20Z drmeister: I need the not the latest version to reproduce the problem. 2015-11-06T03:28:29Z Xach: ok, then you can go back in time 2015-11-06T03:28:42Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html has a sketch of how to do it 2015-11-06T03:29:20Z drmeister: Excellent! 2015-11-06T03:30:34Z drmeister: Hmm, this may be an artifact of my last adventure: 2015-11-06T03:30:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/4vcTjUQ5/ 2015-11-06T03:30:49Z drmeister: It's reporting that AVAILABLE-VERSIONS has no function bound to it. 2015-11-06T03:31:01Z drmeister: Maybe I broke my quicklisp? 2015-11-06T03:31:11Z Xach: drmeister: Do you get the same from (in-package :ql-dist)? 2015-11-06T03:31:20Z Xach: something is busted, but not sure what. those symbols are external. 2015-11-06T03:31:33Z drmeister: No - that works then. 2015-11-06T03:32:38Z drmeister: I'll go back to November 2014 - that was a good time. 2015-11-06T03:33:04Z Xach: the best of times, even 2015-11-06T03:33:34Z drmeister: and the worst of times. 2015-11-06T03:43:51Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:45:57Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T03:48:31Z |3b| quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T03:49:24Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:51:38Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T03:52:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T03:55:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T03:58:14Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T04:00:19Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:02:53Z cpc26 quit 2015-11-06T04:03:38Z marusich joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:04:03Z mordocai: Is there any lisp related "light reading" people would recommend? For when i'm tired after work but still in a lispy mood? 2015-11-06T04:04:31Z mordocai: For context, I'm a linux noob 2015-11-06T04:04:33Z mordocai: lisp* 2015-11-06T04:04:43Z mordocai: Not linux. Been using linux for 10 years+ now :P 2015-11-06T04:05:14Z marusich: mordocai: perhaps SICP. I'm a lisp newb and I like it a lot. It's an intro to lisp and it also serves as a good introduction to core CS concepts like data abstraction, which is refreshing even if you are already familiar with the stuff from another language. 2015-11-06T04:05:32Z Xach: it's not super-light, but i like printing out source code and reading it sometimes 2015-11-06T04:05:40Z marusich: SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. free online: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book 2015-11-06T04:06:05Z mordocai: Xach: That might be a good idea actually. 2015-11-06T04:06:10Z mordocai: marusich: Also like your idea 2015-11-06T04:06:26Z Xach: i used to print it out four to a page, full duplex, but that got to be too small 2015-11-06T04:06:54Z marusich: In Lisp, is the list symbol '(a b c) the same as the symbol for the list consisting of three elements: 'a, 'b, and 'c? I'm a little confused about symbols 2015-11-06T04:07:00Z pillton prefers microfilm. 2015-11-06T04:07:34Z mordocai: How good code quality/style wise is alexandria? I've been wondering what all is in it so that might be something good to read. 2015-11-06T04:09:17Z resttime: marusich: The two are "equal" yes. 2015-11-06T04:09:45Z resttime: '(a b c) means (quote (a b c)) 2015-11-06T04:09:51Z marusich: resttime, so '(a b c) is not in fact a symbol for the list consisting of the referents to a, b, and c? 2015-11-06T04:10:20Z resttime: Well it's not a "symbol" per se in the first place 2015-11-06T04:10:25Z Xach: marusich: if you evaluate '(a b c), the result is a list of three symbols. 2015-11-06T04:10:39Z marusich: ah,I see 2015-11-06T04:10:48Z Xach: marusich: it *reads* as a list, consisting of the symbol QUOTE and the list (A B C) 2015-11-06T04:11:15Z Xach: the evaluator does a special thing with lists starting with QUOTE 2015-11-06T04:11:46Z marusich: The difference between an "expression" that is to be evaluated, like (+ 1 2) and a "list" of the symbols is a little unclear to me. I feel like I'm missing something simple. 2015-11-06T04:12:13Z marusich: My understanding is that a list is a series of related cons cells, not an expression; I'm probably confused somehow. 2015-11-06T04:12:35Z loke: marusich: Yes you do, because in Lisp these concepts are axposed, and the difference important while in most other languages these concepts are all wrapped up in a black box. 2015-11-06T04:13:10Z loke: marusich: You are perfectly correct. However, the compiler uses the very same cons cells to represent the program itself. 2015-11-06T04:13:16Z marusich: I see 2015-11-06T04:13:49Z marusich: So expressions are lists to the compiler, and whether or not they should be evaluated depends? 2015-11-06T04:14:04Z resttime: Read-Eval-Print-Loop 2015-11-06T04:14:23Z loke: marusich: In, say, C, the internal representation of a program is not exposed to the programmer. He just takes source code and it magically becomes runnable. In Lisp, the internal representation is exposed and happens to be the exact same data structure (generally cons calls and symbols) that the programmer uses to store his own data. 2015-11-06T04:14:27Z Xach: marusich: lisp programs are made of lists 2015-11-06T04:14:35Z marusich: I see. 2015-11-06T04:15:08Z loke: That's why the list (+ 1 2) isboth a list of thee values (the symbol + and the numbers 1 and 2) as well as a valid representation of a programmatic expression that adds the numbers 1 and 2 2015-11-06T04:15:19Z mordocai: The docs for common-lisp.net projects really need to be updated to show that their home is now gitlab. 2015-11-06T04:15:34Z mordocai: I keep forgetting that and being confused when I follow their git clone instructions 2015-11-06T04:15:54Z marusich: What Xach said makes sense to me: "if you evaluate '(a b c), the result is a list of three symbols". Am I correct in understanding, then, that '(a b c) or (quote (a b c)) does not evaluate to a symbol; it evaluates a list of symbols, and those symbols are the same as (quote a), (quote b), and (quote c)? 2015-11-06T04:16:02Z loke: This is what I tried to emphasise in a presentation I did a few years ago: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1mIHAruC3nbI-CZPVjX7AuRp-bj9xjJima0l6XrHUI6Y/edit#slide=id.p 2015-11-06T04:16:17Z Xach: marusich: no, not correct. 2015-11-06T04:16:23Z loke: There is a (bad) video of the same presentation of youtube somwehere 2015-11-06T04:16:31Z Xach: marusich: (QUOTE A) is a list of two symbols. it *evaluates* to the symbol A. 2015-11-06T04:16:47Z marusich: So, let me rephrase 2015-11-06T04:17:08Z marusich: I correct in understanding, then, that '(a b c) or (quote (a b c)) does not evaluate to a symbol; it evaluates a list of symbols, and those symbols are the same as *the symbols that you get when you evaluate* (quote a), (quote b), and (quote c)?? 2015-11-06T04:17:20Z Xach: yes. 2015-11-06T04:17:25Z marusich: That makes sense to me 2015-11-06T04:17:36Z marusich: So there is no concept of a "list symbol"? 2015-11-06T04:17:53Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T04:17:54Z Xach: there is a symbol by that name 2015-11-06T04:17:58Z resttime: LIST is a symbol 2015-11-06T04:18:07Z marusich: loke, thank you for the link; I'll take a peek at it. 2015-11-06T04:18:14Z Xach: but a list, the object, is not a symbol 2015-11-06T04:18:21Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-06T04:18:42Z Xach: well, NIL is a symbol and a list, but nil is so very special in common lisp. 2015-11-06T04:18:52Z marusich: What I mean is, I'm curious to know if there are multiple symbols for the multiple lists you might have floating around in a program. A symbol to refer to the list (1 2 3), another to refer to (a b c), etc. Is that so? 2015-11-06T04:19:21Z resttime: Only through lexical binding I suppose 2015-11-06T04:19:23Z marusich: Since you said '(1 2 3) evaluates to a list of symbols, not to a symbol itself, I suspect the answer may be "no" 2015-11-06T04:19:51Z resttime: (let ((a '(1 2 3))) a) -> (1 2 3) 2015-11-06T04:21:06Z marusich: I see. Another point of confusion for me is that sometimes, it's hard to tell if the output in my REPL is referring to a symbol or the referent of that symbol. E.g., '(1 2 3) -> (1 2 3), but is that the number 1 or the symbol? (the symbol, I think) 2015-11-06T04:21:21Z marusich: Is that just something I'll have to get used to with most REPLs out there? 2015-11-06T04:21:42Z cyphase__ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:21:46Z Bike: i think you're overestimating what a symbol is 2015-11-06T04:22:18Z marusich: How's that? I'm definitely thinking about it more than most people might, since I'm trying to make sure I understand it correctly. 2015-11-06T04:22:35Z Bike: a symbol is basically just a string, or more intuitively a "name" 2015-11-06T04:22:45Z Xach: marusich: lists, symbols, numbers, etc. have certain syntax that the reader understands. 2015-11-06T04:22:48Z Bike: it's read by typing the name, and it's output as the name 2015-11-06T04:23:04Z Xach: marusich: when you learn a little of the syntax you can understand exactly what the repl is displaying. usually. 2015-11-06T04:23:08Z Bike: but if you just type 1 you'll get a number, which is not a symbol, and if you type (a b c) you'll get a list of symbols, which is not a symbol 2015-11-06T04:23:20Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:24:35Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:24:47Z cyphase__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-06T04:24:55Z resttime: (+ 1 2) -> Reads as (+ 1 2) -> Evals as 3 -> Prints as 3 2015-11-06T04:25:36Z marusich: So how would it look for (quote 1)? 2015-11-06T04:26:05Z Bike: (quote 1) -> reads as (quote 1) -> evals as 1 (a number) -> prints as 1 2015-11-06T04:26:24Z marusich: Why does it not eval as the symbol 1? 2015-11-06T04:26:25Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T04:26:36Z Xach: marusich: because of the rules of symbol syntax baked into the reader. 2015-11-06T04:26:42Z resttime: Hmmm, I think your confusion is QUOTE doesn't return a symbol but as the argument without EVAL. 2015-11-06T04:26:46Z Bike: it reads as the list with first element the symbol "quote", and the second element the number 1 2015-11-06T04:26:52Z Bike: quote doesn't know anything about symbols 2015-11-06T04:27:13Z Bike: when you evaluate a list with first element "quote" and second element anything, the second element is the result 2015-11-06T04:27:56Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:28:12Z Xach: that is different from "normal" rules, which say: evaluate everything after the first element, then treat the first element as a function to be called with the evaluated arugments. 2015-11-06T04:28:31Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:28:53Z marusich: Bike, so does that mean that the loop for (quote a) goes: read as (quote a) (in here, a is a symbol), eval as a (the symbol), prints as a? 2015-11-06T04:29:00Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:29:10Z Bike: yes, (quote a) evaluates to a 2015-11-06T04:29:18Z marusich: I see 2015-11-06T04:29:34Z marusich: I think that may be where I was getting confused the most; I had assumed that quote receives whatever a evaluates to 2015-11-06T04:29:44Z Bike: no, as xach said, quote is special 2015-11-06T04:29:58Z marusich: I see. 2015-11-06T04:29:59Z Bike: pretty much everything else would "receive" whatever a evaluates to 2015-11-06T04:30:07Z loke: That's what is called a "special form". There are a handful of those. 2015-11-06T04:30:14Z Bike: e.g. (+ a b) is read as (+ a b), evaluates as what a evaluates to plus what b evaluates to 2015-11-06T04:30:21Z resttime: marusich: Say my name. 2015-11-06T04:30:26Z resttime: Say "my name." 2015-11-06T04:30:36Z Xach: the magic of quoting! 2015-11-06T04:30:40Z Xach: special! 2015-11-06T04:30:50Z marusich: Yeah, I didn't realize that it was a special form. That makes more sense. Thank you for the explanation; I think I understand now. 2015-11-06T04:31:01Z marusich: At the ver least, that should be enough to un-block me! Thank you 2015-11-06T04:31:02Z Bike: before you know it you'll be mainlining quines in a dive bar in vienna 2015-11-06T04:31:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:33:23Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:33:49Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:37:06Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-06T04:53:35Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:54:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T04:54:18Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-06T04:58:28Z cyphase__ is now known as cyphase 2015-11-06T04:58:33Z beach: pyon: Dream Theater fan? 2015-11-06T04:58:44Z pyon: beach: Indeed. 2015-11-06T04:58:51Z beach: I recognized the lyrics. 2015-11-06T04:59:04Z peytonien joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:01:53Z drmeister: Hey beach 2015-11-06T05:02:41Z drmeister: beach - I am running into a problem with funwind_protect (my implementation of unwind-protect that takes a protected form and a cleanup form) - do you have a few minutes to talk about it? 2015-11-06T05:04:23Z beach: I do. 2015-11-06T05:04:40Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:05:01Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2015-11-06T05:05:07Z drmeister: I wrote the code so that when an unwind happens in the protected for in the cleanup form the multiple value return value would be saved and then restored after the cleanup form was evaluated. 2015-11-06T05:05:36Z beach: OK. 2015-11-06T05:05:40Z drmeister: In September for some reason (I think because SLDB wouldn't work properly) I commented out the code that saved and restored the return value. 2015-11-06T05:05:54Z drmeister: The commit message only says "fixed unwind-protect problem" 2015-11-06T05:06:33Z drmeister: Fast forward to today and we find that this: (defun test () (block nil (unwind-protect (return (values 1 2)) (print 10)))) 2015-11-06T05:06:46Z drmeister: Doesn't work because the return-from values are lost when (print 10) evaluates. 2015-11-06T05:06:51Z beach: An you can't remember the problem? 2015-11-06T05:07:12Z drmeister: So I uncommented the code that saved/restored the return value and now the case above works but SLDB crashes when I "q"uit out of it. 2015-11-06T05:07:20Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-06T05:07:32Z drmeister: I think it had to do with sldb - with what I'm seeing happen now. 2015-11-06T05:07:35Z drmeister: I'm testing it. 2015-11-06T05:08:19Z drmeister: I went into the #clasp logs to see if I talked about it back in september but I can't find anything. 2015-11-06T05:08:22Z beach: Sounds strange. How can SLDB be influenced by what you do, unless you overwrite its memory. 2015-11-06T05:09:10Z drmeister: I don't know. 2015-11-06T05:09:18Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-06T05:09:33Z beach: I guess you might destroy the stack somehow. 2015-11-06T05:10:19Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:10:46Z drmeister: But I should save and restore the return value around the cleanup form. Maybe it is broken somehow. 2015-11-06T05:11:31Z mordocai: How can I force quicklisp to recompile a library? 2015-11-06T05:11:51Z Xach: You can use asdf directly and pass :force t 2015-11-06T05:12:06Z mordocai goes to lookup how to do that 2015-11-06T05:12:14Z beach: drmeister: But the example works, you said? 2015-11-06T05:12:41Z drmeister: The one I just posted works now that I save/restore the return value 2015-11-06T05:13:22Z beach: The only thing I can think of would be if saving/restoring the return values overwrites some memory that it shouldn't. 2015-11-06T05:13:36Z drmeister: When I comment out that code so that I don't save/restore the return value I can (error "foo") and exit sldb over and over again with no problems. 2015-11-06T05:15:44Z drmeister: Yup, and when I turn on the code that saves/restores the return value and I go (error "foo") sldb crashes when I try to quit. 2015-11-06T05:16:09Z beach: Definitely sounds like the stack is trashed. 2015-11-06T05:16:22Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:16:31Z beach: But then, I don't know how SLDB works. 2015-11-06T05:16:51Z native_killer quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-06T05:16:57Z drmeister: but the test case: (defun test () (block nil (unwind-protect (return (values 1 2)) (print 10)))) works fine. 2015-11-06T05:17:17Z beach: I understand. 2015-11-06T05:17:38Z drmeister: I'm going to push the code that breaks sldb and maybe stassats has an idea or recalls what was going on in September. 2015-11-06T05:17:49Z beach: Maybe it is possible to find out what action SLDB takes for quit. 2015-11-06T05:18:11Z drmeister: Tomorrow I'll look through the code and try and figure out why it's crashing. 2015-11-06T05:18:13Z beach: Doesn't SLDB run in a separate process like GDB? 2015-11-06T05:18:20Z drmeister: I don't think so. 2015-11-06T05:18:53Z beach: Ah, then it is vulnerable to someone trashing its memory. 2015-11-06T05:20:47Z drmeister: I'll check with stassats tomorrow 2015-11-06T05:21:04Z beach: Yeah. Sorry, I am not of much help here. 2015-11-06T05:24:16Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:25:15Z raphaelss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T05:25:18Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:25:22Z drmeister: Thank you though - I'll check with stas - he knows how Slime/sldb "q" works 2015-11-06T05:26:01Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T05:26:28Z beach: Oh, SLIME debugger. For some reason I was thinking of LLVM debugger. 2015-11-06T05:26:41Z beach: That's LLDB isn't it. Duh! 2015-11-06T05:27:33Z beach: The SLIME debugger only invokes one of your restarts I would think. 2015-11-06T05:28:26Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:28:57Z beach: Then you might just write some code that invokes the same restart as SLDB does. 2015-11-06T05:29:04Z beach: Then you have a test case. 2015-11-06T05:30:44Z peytonien quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-06T05:33:19Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:36:07Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:36:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:38:34Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-06T05:42:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:43:55Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:45:42Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T05:47:39Z pjb: marusich: A symbol named "1" would be represented as: \1 The integer one would be represented as: 1 2015-11-06T05:48:31Z pjb: marusich: Other representations of \1 include |1|, and other representations of 1 include 1/1: (quote (\1 |1| 1 1/1)) #| --> (|1| |1| 1 1) |# 2015-11-06T05:48:47Z pjb: marusich: (mapcar 'type-of (quote (\1 |1| 1 1/1))) #| --> (symbol symbol bit bit) |# 2015-11-06T05:48:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:49:55Z ryu0: pjb: how unusual. reminds me of regular expression back references. 2015-11-06T05:50:02Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:50:04Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-06T05:50:13Z pjb: marusich: notice: (setf *read-base* 2) (mapcar 'type-of '(0 1 2 3 4 5)) #| --> (bit bit symbol symbol symbol symbol) |# 2015-11-06T05:51:13Z pjb: 1. is also another representation of one, expressed in base ten. 2015-11-06T05:51:23Z pjb: (setf *read-base* 10.) 2015-11-06T05:55:19Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T05:55:19Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T05:55:24Z DrCode quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-06T05:56:01Z mordocai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T05:59:43Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-11-06T06:02:32Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-06T06:06:50Z 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I need a non-internet connected recognition of about 64 spoken "words". I plan to make it so the user can train the recognition locally. 2015-11-06T09:24:08Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T09:24:47Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:25:27Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:25:38Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:26:10Z pjb: easye: what about asking siri about it? 2015-11-06T09:26:34Z easye ain't paying that AAPL tax currently. 2015-11-06T09:27:02Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:27:04Z pjb: or google or samsung's equivalent. 2015-11-06T09:27:16Z easye: The easiest thing would be to CFFI somebody's C/C++ library. 2015-11-06T09:27:18Z pjb: Or else, you can just type common lisp speach recognition in google. https://sourceforge.net/projects/cl-asr/ 2015-11-06T09:27:31Z pjb: speech, works better without typoes. 2015-11-06T09:27:48Z easye: ASR looks like the ticket. Thanks! 2015-11-06T09:28:31Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:29:09Z easye: although is empty... 2015-11-06T09:29:16Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:29:23Z pjb: there may be a svn or git repo? 2015-11-06T09:29:28Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:29:35Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:29:36Z easye: Don't see one. 2015-11-06T09:30:00Z easye: minion: location of ASR? 2015-11-06T09:30:00Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 2015-11-06T09:30:38Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:31:52Z easye: Cool. No source. I can try to do it myself. 2015-11-06T09:32:09Z easye always wanted to code wavelets in a language other than assembly. 2015-11-06T09:32:31Z pjb: Author seems to be: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~belamber/ You could ask him directly? 2015-11-06T09:32:47Z jackdaniel: (defmacro wavelet (&body body) `(with-asm ,@body)) ; ? :) 2015-11-06T09:33:01Z easye: jackdaniel: heh 2015-11-06T09:33:14Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-06T09:33:44Z easye: Time to dust off the emails of the CMU people I might know. 2015-11-06T09:34:24Z jackdaniel: sphinx (not CL though) seems to be actively developed 2015-11-06T09:35:10Z jackdaniel: sphinx4 is java and pocketsphinx is C so the first would be a nice fit for ABCL while the latter for any CFFI compat implementation 2015-11-06T09:35:34Z easye: Yep. Sphinx looks plausibly like something I would try to wrap in the loving embrace of CFFI. 2015-11-06T09:35:55Z pjb: That definitely looks like a garbage collected project :-( 2015-11-06T09:36:03Z easye: Yeah. If you can the the JVM runtime up, the ABCL/JNA bridge is remarkably efficient. 2015-11-06T09:36:35Z pjb: You see why there's so much NIH in lisp… It's easier to just rewrite it than track libraries… 2015-11-06T09:36:47Z randommelon left #lisp 2015-11-06T09:36:48Z easye: Problem for me is that ABCL drags on a RPI 2 B (4x ARM core / 1 Gib RAM) 2015-11-06T09:36:56Z easye: So, I'm using sbcl. 2015-11-06T09:37:07Z easye: "Good enough for government work." 2015-11-06T09:37:25Z easye should check out ECL. 2015-11-06T09:37:31Z jackdaniel: do it \o/ 2015-11-06T09:37:41Z jackdaniel: threads work on arm boards 2015-11-06T09:37:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:37:53Z jackdaniel: regarding your earlier question on #sbcl 2015-11-06T09:38:29Z easye: Oh. Do they? #sbcl claimed that stassats thinks the current RPI boards don't have enough registers to "do" threads efficiently. 2015-11-06T09:39:08Z easye: ARM64 has enough registers, so that's what you should target. 2015-11-06T09:39:10Z jackdaniel: ECL takes another approach - it hooks into pthreads (and windows threads for windows platform) 2015-11-06T09:39:30Z easye: Sure. 2015-11-06T09:39:37Z jackdaniel: so you have threads on any unix supporting pthreads 2015-11-06T09:39:40Z easye: And we have gcc-4.9 which is a fine compiler. 2015-11-06T09:39:51Z easye: "We" == arm32 community 2015-11-06T09:40:08Z easye: As much as Linux supports threads... 2015-11-06T09:40:39Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:40:39Z easye: And ECL's default GC is Boehm? 2015-11-06T09:40:51Z jackdaniel: default and the only one working for now 2015-11-06T09:41:01Z easye: Fine. Thanks for the info! 2015-11-06T09:41:06Z jackdaniel: sure :-) 2015-11-06T09:42:25Z jackdaniel: before the next release I want to also bring the alternative interface for green threads (removed long time ago) 2015-11-06T09:44:42Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:50:39Z ovx999 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T09:52:17Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-06T09:52:21Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T09:55:24Z easye: jackdaniel: +1 on an altenate "Green" threads implementation sometimes you want to be correct more than you wish to be fleet. 2015-11-06T09:57:44Z jackdaniel: and green threads are really lightweight what is a big plus if you spawn gazzilion threads 2015-11-06T09:58:41Z easye: Yep. I don't think I used anything but a green thread implementation before 1999 in Java. 2015-11-06T10:00:09Z easye: So, why doesn't SBCL have a green threads implementation? 2015-11-06T10:00:32Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T10:00:39Z easye: "to fall back upon" 2015-11-06T10:00:40Z jackdaniel: I don't know, CMU CL has them afair 2015-11-06T10:00:51Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:01:07Z jackdaniel: I want to give green threads a separate api so they may work side-by-side with the native threads 2015-11-06T10:01:24Z easye nods. Yep. 2015-11-06T10:01:51Z jackdaniel: and maybe write for bordeaux-threads second implementation and the one which would be picked would depend on, idk, *threads-model* 2015-11-06T10:02:08Z easye: Try to refactor out hte need for a special? 2015-11-06T10:02:43Z easye: Think of the CPS abstraction a call is made within? 2015-11-06T10:03:11Z jackdaniel: I mean that you would be able to spawn two kinds of threads in the same process 2015-11-06T10:03:13Z easye: Scratch that. Not sure that makes sense. 2015-11-06T10:03:23Z easye: Fine. 2015-11-06T10:03:35Z easye: As long as Bordeaux-Threads can abstract. 2015-11-06T10:04:06Z jackdaniel: yeah, I'm not sure if such switching would be a good idea 2015-11-06T10:04:16Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:04:19Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:04:21Z easye: I'm trying to think of a way you could avoid needing to define another implementation in BT. 2015-11-06T10:04:25Z jackdaniel: but it's something I'll definetely think about when finish support in ECL 2015-11-06T10:04:34Z easye: Not sure it you could do it, but it would be a neat hack. 2015-11-06T10:05:06Z jackdaniel: if I want to present the separate api then implementation will be necessary if want to support from BT 2015-11-06T10:05:38Z easye: Sure. 2015-11-06T10:07:00Z jackdaniel: there is also https://github.com/thezerobit/green-threads - I could write a separate backend for it and write a special backend in BT for GT 2015-11-06T10:07:38Z jackdaniel: so one could just request green threads from BT for any implementation 2015-11-06T10:07:44Z easye: Do you have applications in mind that you could test? 2015-11-06T10:08:34Z jackdaniel: yeah - each native thread provides heap and is a VM for a set of the green threads (something erlang-like) 2015-11-06T10:09:20Z easye: Suggestion: set up the thing you want to test, possibly swap implememtations on it. Iterate. 2015-11-06T10:09:23Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T10:09:41Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:09:51Z jackdaniel: but if you mean like end-user application - no, I don't. Just find it fun and nice thing to do 2015-11-06T10:11:01Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T10:11:13Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:11:17Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:11:17Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:11:30Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:11:48Z hyoyoung_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:12:02Z hyoyoung joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:14:39Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T10:15:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:18:14Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:18:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T10:18:42Z myrkraverk: Is there lispism for "the directory this .cl file is in" ? 2015-11-06T10:18:58Z myrkraverk: Kind of like $ORIGIN and ldload. 2015-11-06T10:19:18Z Shinmera: *compile-file-pathname* and *load-pathname*. 2015-11-06T10:19:47Z Shinmera: Well, that'll give you the path of course. You then have to turn it into a directory with (make-pathname :name NIL :type NIL :defaults ..) 2015-11-06T10:19:56Z Shinmera: *path to the file 2015-11-06T10:20:31Z Shinmera: If you're using ASDF you can also rely on (asdf:system-source-directory :my-system) or asdf:system-relative-pathname. 2015-11-06T10:24:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:29:17Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:29:23Z myrkraverk: I'm not using ASDF, I'm just trying to load a .so file in the same directory. Maybe this works. 2015-11-06T10:31:07Z Shinmera: #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) should do fine for that. 2015-11-06T10:31:18Z Shinmera: (or -pathname, if you want a pathname) 2015-11-06T10:32:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:32:36Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:33:08Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T10:33:34Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:35:00Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:38:02Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:39:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:43:35Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:44:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T10:45:02Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-06T10:48:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:00:15Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:01:10Z C4K3 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:04:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:05:20Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:08:56Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:10:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:10:19Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-11-06T11:10:29Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T11:10:45Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:11:06Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:12:00Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:12:25Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T11:15:51Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:16:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:17:22Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:22:48Z jdz: just to clarify -- in both cases the value is NIL or a pathname 2015-11-06T11:23:28Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T11:24:12Z jdz: clhs 20.1.3 2015-11-06T11:24:12Z specbot: Truenames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/20_ac.htm 2015-11-06T11:25:01Z gabriella joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:25:33Z gabriella: hello :) 2015-11-06T11:27:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:27:32Z gabriella: you know, I found this: 2015-11-06T11:27:35Z gabriella: Common LISP is the PL/I of Lisps. Too big and too incomprehensible, with no examiniation of the real world of software engineering. The CL effort resembles a bunch of spoiled children, each insisting "include my feature or I'll pull out, and then we'll all go down the tubes". Everybody had vested interests, both financial and emotional. CL is a nightmare; it has effectively killed LISP development in this country. It is not commerc 2015-11-06T11:27:46Z gabriella: no future outside of the traditional academic/defense/research arena. It should be embarassing to everybody in the field that most shells and tools are no longer written in LISP. 2015-11-06T11:28:27Z Zhivago: A reasonable argument can be made along those lines. 2015-11-06T11:29:20Z gabriella: And also this: "I think CL is the WORST thing that could possibly happen to LISP. In fact, I consider it a language different from “true” LISP." 2015-11-06T11:29:44Z pjb: It's also the best thing that occured to lisp. Without Common Lisp, lisp would be dead by now. 2015-11-06T11:30:25Z pjb: You can consider CL to be the seed vault of lisp during the AI winter. 2015-11-06T11:30:46Z gabriella: pjb: CL is doomed to death anyway. 2015-11-06T11:30:52Z pjb: Just like you. 2015-11-06T11:30:58Z pjb: But I'll bet on you first. 2015-11-06T11:31:08Z gabriella: pjb: and you :) 2015-11-06T11:31:14Z pjb: yes, and me before. 2015-11-06T11:31:20Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:31:24Z pjb: So AFAIAC, lisp is eternal. 2015-11-06T11:32:08Z gabriella: but me is not like CL, because "Common Lisp did kill Lisp. Period. (just languages take a long time dying …) It is to Lisp what C++ is to C. A monstrosity that totally ignores the basics of language design, simplicity and orthogonality to begin with." 2015-11-06T11:32:44Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:33:13Z pjb: gabriella: this is just a lie that CL killed lisp. If you want to write a vlisp or a xlisp or a EuLisp program, you can. 2015-11-06T11:33:29Z pjb: Just fetch the sources of those implementation in some archive, port it on linux and go ahead! 2015-11-06T11:33:42Z mprelude: Last I checked, C++ is still doing pretty well, gabriella. 2015-11-06T11:33:51Z pjb: Even LISP 1.5 sources are available and you can make them run on a 7090 emulator. 2015-11-06T11:34:07Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T11:35:05Z gabriella: pjb: lie? "Every decision of the committee can be locally rationalized as the right thing. We believe that the sum of these decisions, however, has produced something greater than its parts; an unwieldy, overweight beast, with significant costs (especially on other than micro-codable personal Lisp engines) in compiler size and speed, in runtime performance, in programmer overhead needed to produce efficient programs, and in intellect 2015-11-06T11:35:17Z gabriella: wishing to be a proficient COMMON LISP programmer. 2015-11-06T11:35:21Z gabriella: " 2015-11-06T11:35:39Z C4K3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T11:35:39Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T11:36:22Z jdz: gabriella: do you have a point? 2015-11-06T11:37:06Z _death: WJ found out about IRC? 2015-11-06T11:37:24Z mprelude: gabriella: Feel free to create an alternative specification which better matches the needs of modern programming in a lisp-esque way. I'd be genuinely interested in trying alternatives, I've already played with several other functional languages. Unfortunately, bemoaning the supposed shortcomings of a language is just ignorant of the fact that all languages have them -- and the biggest shortcoming of cl is a 2015-11-06T11:37:26Z mprelude: lack of an extensive set of documented libraries, which would only be made worse by a further division in lisp specifications. 2015-11-06T11:37:47Z mprelude: That probably didn't make much sense, I'm very tired. Hopefully someone got my point. :) 2015-11-06T11:39:09Z gabriella: mprelude: I have no so much time and bucks to create specification... The time is lost. 2015-11-06T11:39:15Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:44:44Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:46:42Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:47:22Z preacher-aka-nd joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:48:44Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:48:51Z preacher-aka-nd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T11:49:27Z preacherAKAnd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:50:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:50:54Z gabriella: mprelude: the biggest shortcoming of CL - its enormous size and complexity, which are without micro-coded support make CL suck 2015-11-06T11:50:57Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T11:51:21Z guaqua: dunno. i think there are plenty of good common lisp implementations 2015-11-06T11:51:24Z guaqua: reasonably fast 2015-11-06T11:51:30Z guaqua: reasonably stable 2015-11-06T11:52:07Z guaqua: talking about microcode-cpus and common lisp is a bit like talking about how jvm sucks because its jit-compilation is complicated 2015-11-06T11:52:20Z guaqua: common lisp still kicks ass without the microcode 2015-11-06T11:52:29Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-06T11:52:37Z guaqua: jvm still kicks ass even though its jit-compilation is not for the faint of heart 2015-11-06T11:52:39Z jdz: gabriella: i love the CL size and complexity because otherwise the complexity ends up in user programs, many times over 2015-11-06T11:53:14Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:53:27Z guaqua: it's not simple nor easy, but that can be said of any reasonably complex system people build 2015-11-06T11:53:30Z gabriella: guaqua: other big problem - there are very very few Lisp hackers. If you are talking about Java, then you must know the number of Java programmers available. 2015-11-06T11:54:01Z guaqua: that's more of a HR and management problem, not availability of developers 2015-11-06T11:54:16Z jdz: haha, all CL programmers I personally know are smart people; cannot say the same about the Java programmers. 2015-11-06T11:54:20Z gabriella: guaqua: no, it's a CL problem, not HR. 2015-11-06T11:54:29Z gabriella: jdz: lol 2015-11-06T11:54:32Z guaqua: it's almost as hard to find really skilled java developers than it probably is for common lisp 2015-11-06T11:54:57Z guaqua: any skilled developer can learn another environment and thrive in it. best developers look for challenges and learning experiences 2015-11-06T11:55:35Z guaqua: if you want average and you have high employee churn rate, you probably are better off with java 2015-11-06T11:55:54Z guaqua: if you instead would like to build for the long term, you want skilled people to stay 2015-11-06T11:56:18Z guaqua: and of course, most companies are probably in the high-developer-churn category so they might actually be better off with java 2015-11-06T11:56:20Z guaqua: who knows 2015-11-06T11:56:29Z guaqua: i'm not especially drawn to that kind of companies personally 2015-11-06T11:57:18Z gabriella: guaqua: you lie. Many very popular startups written not in CL. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc etc. Even Reddit was rewritten. There is no Lisp developers at all. 2015-11-06T11:57:52Z gabriella: Even Clozure lost them. Lol. 2015-11-06T11:58:52Z gabriella: Oh, there is no Lisp developers at all compared to Java or C 2015-11-06T11:58:58Z guaqua: i don't know where i lied? i just stated that you probably are better off with java if you have high developer churn 2015-11-06T11:59:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T11:59:17Z guaqua: i.e. if your biggest problem is not your actual domain, but how you can keep your developers 2015-11-06T12:01:23Z gabriella: guaqua: I sad about lie because it seems to me, that all that Lisp propaganda is a big lie. 2015-11-06T12:01:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T12:01:53Z jdz: gabriella: don't listen to "that Lisp propaganda", then? 2015-11-06T12:02:00Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-06T12:02:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:02:34Z jdz: we're here because we enjoy Common Lisp, if that is not the case for you you can safely leave 2015-11-06T12:04:03Z guaqua: just re-eval your channel-list and go, that's the beauty of lisp! 2015-11-06T12:04:06Z Shinmera: I'm glad I didn't miss anything of significance during my lunch break. 2015-11-06T12:04:21Z guaqua: with java you would probably have to wait for minutes for your maven build to finish 2015-11-06T12:04:46Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:05:12Z gabriella: guaqua: it seems to me, that only language that can be considered as useful tool is a C -- small, fast, clean. 2015-11-06T12:05:20Z gabriella: guaqua: Java suck. 2015-11-06T12:05:56Z jdz: gabriella: you're getting really boring now 2015-11-06T12:06:17Z guaqua: is there something for gabriella in the naggum archives? :) 2015-11-06T12:06:48Z gabriella: guaqua: heh, don't touch Erik please. 2015-11-06T12:07:12Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:07:53Z Shinmera: Indeed. It would be pretty indecent and also illegal to touch Erik now. 2015-11-06T12:08:07Z Shinmera: You should, however, read his archived usenet posts. 2015-11-06T12:08:50Z gabriella: Shinmera: I've read it. 2015-11-06T12:08:57Z gabriella: if you talk to me 2015-11-06T12:09:31Z Shinmera: I'm talking to whoever cares to listen. 2015-11-06T12:12:45Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:17:19Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T12:20:28Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T12:20:53Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:21:00Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:21:11Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T12:26:42Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:26:48Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T12:29:04Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T12:29:30Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:29:35Z schoppenhauer: hi. hm. I want to run hunchentoot at port 80 on a specific IP. is creating and starting the acceptor as root, then dropping privileges with sb-posix:setgid and setuid, and then loading the rest, a good way to go? the documentation links to another document which in turn recommends "authbind", but authbind does LD_PRELOAD on the glibc, so this will probably not work with sbcl. 2015-11-06T12:30:06Z nyef: What's the matter with glibc? 2015-11-06T12:30:11Z Shinmera: Generally the recommendation is to /not/ expose Hunchentoot to the public and instead proxy it with something like nginx. 2015-11-06T12:30:30Z schoppenhauer: why is this the recommendation? 2015-11-06T12:30:39Z schoppenhauer: what is the advantage? 2015-11-06T12:30:49Z nyef: I know that I looked into this kind of thing once, but I don't remember what I ended up finding. /-: 2015-11-06T12:30:51Z Shinmera: Because Hunchentoot is /slooooooow/ with serving static files, might be insecure in some parts, and handles SSL badly. 2015-11-06T12:30:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:31:29Z schoppenhauer: Shinmera: I don't need ssl. and insecurity will not really be mitigated by a proxy server, will it? 2015-11-06T12:31:52Z Shinmera: Well security in relation to HTTP preliminary handling. 2015-11-06T12:32:21Z Xach: I use naked hunchentoot for development and proxied for production. 2015-11-06T12:32:58Z Shinmera: I do as Xach says. 2015-11-06T12:33:04Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: NGINX is event-driven, while Hunchentoot is threaded. So, when latter is behind the former, you site is possibly able to handle much more clients. 2015-11-06T12:33:21Z schoppenhauer: Xach: what advantage does hunchentoot have over, say, a small scgi-layer, then? 2015-11-06T12:33:59Z schoppenhauer: Xach: if I can't really use it as http-server. 2015-11-06T12:34:32Z schoppenhauer: I mean, it *has* a lot of bloat with it. all of the stuff like chunga and cl+ssl could be thrown away, etc. 2015-11-06T12:35:34Z alchemis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T12:35:54Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: how would NGINX be able to handle more clients, if it just forwards to hunchentoot? 2015-11-06T12:35:57Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-06T12:36:18Z schoppenhauer: Xach: why do you not run hunchentoot without proxy in production? 2015-11-06T12:36:31Z p_l: schoppenhauer: multiple hunchentoots, having nginx handle static files... 2015-11-06T12:36:40Z p_l: schoppenhauer: I don't even run nginx without proxy in production 2015-11-06T12:36:44Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:36:47Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: there is no reason not use NGNIX -- it based on async IO which helps you a lot to avoid unavailability of the site if clients on slow connection or emulate it to attack you site. 2015-11-06T12:37:27Z schoppenhauer: p_l: so what *are* you running in production? 2015-11-06T12:37:57Z schoppenhauer: p_l: also: why multiple hunchentoots? one can have multiple acceptors in the same hunchentoot. 2015-11-06T12:38:21Z gabriella: naive guy :) 2015-11-06T12:38:23Z flip214: schoppenhauer: failure isolation would be my guess 2015-11-06T12:38:25Z p_l: schoppenhauer: in a current project, two nginx behind active/passive haproxy cluster 2015-11-06T12:38:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:38:46Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:39:02Z p_l: SSL is terminated on haproxy, which also proxies other tcp-based protocols (mostly crappy ThriftRPC) 2015-11-06T12:39:09Z _death: schoppenhauer: one answer to your original question is: https://wiki.apache.org/httpd/NonRootPortBinding 2015-11-06T12:40:29Z schoppenhauer: _death: I know about capabilities. but the linux capabilities are inflexible. anyway, I just use a proxy… 2015-11-06T12:41:00Z p_l: so traffic in current $DAYJOB project is 2x firewalls/routers -> 2x switches -> 2x haproxy load-balancers on virtual IP managed by VRRP -> web application -> bunch of backend services 2015-11-06T12:41:10Z XachX: schoppenhauer: much of my traffic is static gifs and pngs so I don't want to waste lisp cycles on things nginx is very good at 2015-11-06T12:41:27Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T12:41:34Z XachX: See eg pixelspeechbubble.com 2015-11-06T12:41:41Z schoppenhauer: it's just funny that a question like "I want to run hunchentoot" gets as first answers "hunchentoot is bad ad X, Y, Z, so don't use it" 2015-11-06T12:41:53Z Shinmera: We didn't say that. 2015-11-06T12:42:06Z schoppenhauer: no, but it sounded like that :3 2015-11-06T12:42:15Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: :) 2015-11-06T12:42:28Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: maybe you are right ;) 2015-11-06T12:42:28Z _death: but my personal server also uses hunchentoot w/ front-facing nginx 2015-11-06T12:42:37Z Shinmera: schoppenhauer: Would you rather we lied about its deficiencies? 2015-11-06T12:43:05Z schoppenhauer: (I only use hunchentoot because of path-dependency … I used it when I was a lisp-fanboy, and now it is probably more work to stop using it than to keep it up) 2015-11-06T12:43:16Z p_l: schoppenhauer: difference between web server that is honestly more designed for use by application, and dedicated high-performance web server application) 2015-11-06T12:44:07Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: just curious, what do you intend to use instead of Hunchentoot? 2015-11-06T12:44:23Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: is there better alternative? 2015-11-06T12:44:25Z schoppenhauer: Shinmera: no. but seriously, if I hear that, the question is … why use hunchentoot at all, instead of a small scgi-layer. 2015-11-06T12:44:47Z Shinmera: schoppenhauer: Mostly because it's comfortable for development. 2015-11-06T12:44:55Z Shinmera: That's my case, anyway. 2015-11-06T12:44:58Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:45:03Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: currently, I use it for my blog, only. and it does its job. the other thing I wanted to use it for is under a nda (and I probably will not use it for that) 2015-11-06T12:45:14Z Shinmera: I don't have to bother setting up an http server on all my workstations, I can just quickload my thing and start hacking away. 2015-11-06T12:45:34Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T12:45:58Z p_l: schoppenhauer: because nobody wrote scgi layer that would have to handle most of the work that hunchentoot does anyway, and because in general most users seem to be moving away from FCGI or custom webserver-webapp protocols? 2015-11-06T12:46:04Z Shinmera: The framework I use abstracts away Hunchentoot though, so I could also easily switch to some other backend for production if the need arose. 2015-11-06T12:46:25Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:46:45Z schoppenhauer: fun fact: when I was a lisp fanboy, and tried to use hunchentoot without proxy, I wrote https://github.com/dasuxullebt/cl-fuckyou :3 2015-11-06T12:46:51Z gabriella: Shinmera: do you belife youself? :-) 2015-11-06T12:47:16Z schoppenhauer: but nobody liked cl-fuckyou because of its name :( 2015-11-06T12:47:22Z Shinmera: I believe in not taking shit from idiots. 2015-11-06T12:48:13Z schoppenhauer: but, Shinmera's idea of using hunchentoot for testing might give cl-fuckyou a second use in combination with hunchentoot … one could use both to test fastcgi-applications without having a full-blown server application 2015-11-06T12:48:26Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: why you are not a lisp-fanboy anymore? 2015-11-06T12:48:59Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: because I have grown older. 2015-11-06T12:49:10Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: and wiser. 2015-11-06T12:49:44Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: have you read "php sucks but it doesnt matter" 2015-11-06T12:49:46Z schoppenhauer: ? 2015-11-06T12:50:13Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: no, but I can confirm that :) 2015-11-06T12:50:22Z gabriella: even without reading :) 2015-11-06T12:50:26Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: http://blog.codinghorror.com/php-sucks-but-it-doesnt-matter/ 2015-11-06T12:50:51Z gabriella: I have to read http://ergoemacs.org/misc/xah_as_good_as_dead.html 2015-11-06T12:51:04Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: I prefer to create stuff with passive aggressive names (like cl-fuckyou) 2015-11-06T12:51:05Z gabriella: I think that it can be with each Lisp-fanboy :) 2015-11-06T12:51:45Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: why not call somethine cl-suckyoubrainoff ? 2015-11-06T12:52:05Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:52:05Z gabriella: or cl-fanboy 2015-11-06T12:52:15Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: hm. "FUCKYOU" is an acronym. 2015-11-06T12:52:21Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:52:22Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: I need to make it an acronym 2015-11-06T12:52:38Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:52:48Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: I will maybe extend cl-fuckyou with "suckyou" functionality for serving scgi too 2015-11-06T12:52:58Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T12:53:14Z gabriella: cl-fanboy "Fantastic Utter Neat Buster Old Yuk" 2015-11-06T12:53:21Z gabriella: acronym 2015-11-06T12:53:49Z nyef: minion: What does IDIOT stand for? 2015-11-06T12:53:49Z minion: Isometrograph Dermapterous Inburnt Oversubtile Tiger 2015-11-06T12:54:23Z nyef: ... minion has a weird vocabulary. 2015-11-06T12:54:37Z gabriella: how about cl-is-dead library ? 2015-11-06T12:54:46Z gabriella: (ql:quickload 'cl-is-dead) 2015-11-06T12:55:20Z attila_lendvai: any quick ideas what makes slime not react to C-c C-c? I'm using some FFI stuff that uses networking, and my lisp event loop runs well, prints stuff into the emacs slime repl, but C-c C-c doesn't interrupt the repl thread. 2015-11-06T12:55:24Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:56:24Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T12:56:31Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: so, you are on PHP now? 2015-11-06T12:56:34Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-11-06T12:56:35Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T12:56:44Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:56:45Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:56:47Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: php? no. 2015-11-06T12:57:25Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: continue the CL battle? :) 2015-11-06T12:58:29Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: I guess I will keep my blog with hunchentoot, and for the other thing I will maybe use scgi. or fastcgi. 2015-11-06T12:58:46Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T12:58:50Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T12:59:09Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: and maybe iteratees rather than threads. 2015-11-06T12:59:39Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: are you making money with your blog on Hunchentoot? 2015-11-06T13:01:07Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: define "making money"? I have a flattr button since a few days. but the last years it costed me money to host, and I do not expect this to change. (that is, it is my personal blog, without commercial interests) 2015-11-06T13:01:32Z Shinmera: Don't you know? In order for anything to be valid in this world it has to make money!! 2015-11-06T13:01:46Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: uxul.de 2015-11-06T13:02:06Z gabriella: Shinmera: yes, it is. 2015-11-06T13:02:16Z schoppenhauer: Shinmera: it makes money. for hetzner (the vps provider) :3 2015-11-06T13:02:44Z gabriella: Shinmera: because even the 20 yo CL spec wasn't written without money 2015-11-06T13:02:58Z Shinmera: I honestly don't give a fuck 2015-11-06T13:03:20Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:03:39Z guaqua: schoppenhauer: another way to look at "why use a proxy in front of your application" is that the security model is simpler. you probably can get something that's been packaged by your distribution and gets security updates from them 2015-11-06T13:04:06Z guaqua: and then run the application as a regular user, or even as some sort of restricted user 2015-11-06T13:04:24Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:04:34Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: well, you blog is not making money. I see :) 2015-11-06T13:05:06Z schoppenhauer: guaqua: I don't see how an additional process should add security. 2015-11-06T13:05:24Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: it is not intended to. it is intended to get on people's nerves. 2015-11-06T13:05:27Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:05:30Z guaqua: well, you only addressed the complexity, not of maintenance 2015-11-06T13:05:43Z guaqua: also the bugs in your own privilege dropping solution 2015-11-06T13:05:49Z gabriella: schoppenhauer: wow, how useful :) 2015-11-06T13:06:25Z schoppenhauer: gabriella: well, there are shittier blogs out there. and less funny (and worse drawn) comics which make more money. 2015-11-06T13:06:54Z guaqua: i've used haproxy succesfully and i do recommend it. it doesn't do static file serving, but it does a fine job load balancing and forwarding different urls to different backends. it can also be used for throttling per ip (or even something more complex) 2015-11-06T13:07:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:07:15Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:07:35Z gabriella: is there are Hunchentoot-based service which makes money? 2015-11-06T13:09:00Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:09:30Z schoppenhauer: guaqua: anyway. using something like authbind would mitigate the privilege problem. 2015-11-06T13:11:14Z RainBowww joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:12:26Z guaqua: schoppenhauer: definitely. i would still personally just run a separate server and be done with it 2015-11-06T13:13:29Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:15:15Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:15:24Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:17:23Z gabriella quit 2015-11-06T13:17:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:17:32Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-06T13:17:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:17:55Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T13:19:49Z schoppenhauer: mkay. 2015-11-06T13:21:55Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:22:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:23:46Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:24:30Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:24:40Z RainBowww left #lisp 2015-11-06T13:26:21Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:27:45Z lmj joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:29:03Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:29:13Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-06T13:31:13Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:38:02Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-06T13:38:09Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:38:58Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:39:50Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:40:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:41:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:43:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:45:51Z baboon`` joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:45:55Z baboon``: hello 2015-11-06T13:46:45Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T13:46:50Z baboon``: I'm going through lisp-koans right now, and so far so good, but I don't understand why in this example ( https://gist.github.com/c817472679bb5c690d88 ), (equal h1 h2) is nil and not t 2015-11-06T13:47:03Z baboon``: it's about hash tables equality 2015-11-06T13:47:33Z baboon``: I understand that eq works on references equality, so it's nil 2015-11-06T13:48:00Z Shinmera: clhs equal 2015-11-06T13:48:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 2015-11-06T13:48:03Z baboon``: equalp recursively checks every item down the hash-table, and since they're respectively equalp, it works 2015-11-06T13:48:26Z baboon``: Shinmera: I read that, I would never bother you otherwise :) 2015-11-06T13:48:41Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:48:58Z Shinmera: Well it says right there that they're only equal if they're eq. 2015-11-06T13:49:12Z baboon``: h1 and h2 seem like they should be isomorphic, unless I don't understand the definition as good as I think 2015-11-06T13:49:12Z Shinmera: And since h1 and h2 are different objects, they're not eq and thus not equal 2015-11-06T13:49:14Z thodg joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:49:49Z Shinmera: EQ checks if they're identical. As in, the same instance of object. 2015-11-06T13:49:51Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:50:15Z Xach is going to use humbler for a "post to tumblr" option on his sites 2015-11-06T13:50:39Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T13:50:39Z baboon``: so equal is only different from eq if it is not applied to its particularities, that is "Symbol, Number, Characters, Conses, Arrays and Pathnames"? 2015-11-06T13:50:49Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-11-06T13:50:58Z baboon``: I see, thank you 2015-11-06T13:51:04Z Shinmera: Well actually see the figure below 2015-11-06T13:51:09Z Shinmera: Numbers f.e. use EQL 2015-11-06T13:51:22Z Shinmera: because they don't have to be EQ. Same for characters. 2015-11-06T13:51:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:51:43Z baboon``: as a general practice, do people tend to use all the different eq functions? 2015-11-06T13:52:04Z Shinmera: Generally you should not use EQ, but EQL and EQUAL are often used. 2015-11-06T13:52:24Z Shinmera: EQUALP often ends up a bit too lenient, so I see it less. 2015-11-06T13:52:39Z Shinmera: Thought it's very useful for case-insensitive string hash tables. 2015-11-06T13:52:42Z xaotuk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:53:05Z Shinmera: Often times though you might want to use a comparator specific to a type, like STRING= and so forth. 2015-11-06T13:53:26Z baboon``: only that? as I understand it right now, if I want to check whether two hash tables have the same options and elements, there is no other way than equalp 2015-11-06T13:53:26Z Shinmera: Xach: Let me know how it goes! 2015-11-06T13:53:41Z baboon``: ah, I see 2015-11-06T13:53:49Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:53:50Z xaotuk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-06T13:53:58Z baboon``: you use the specific equality operator 2015-11-06T13:53:59Z xaotuk_ is now known as xaotuk 2015-11-06T13:54:29Z Shinmera: Well, for hash tables I'd most likely want to use a custom test so that the values are compared as I want them to be compared, rather than just using equalp. 2015-11-06T13:54:37Z baboon`` checking if string= is recursive down hash tables 2015-11-06T13:54:47Z Shinmera: That's a string test. 2015-11-06T13:54:49Z pjb: Nope. 2015-11-06T13:55:03Z pjb: not appliable to hash-tables. 2015-11-06T13:55:07Z baboon``: then how would you compare two hash tables filled with strings all lowercase? equalp? 2015-11-06T13:55:19Z pjb: You can't. 2015-11-06T13:55:24Z pjb: You write your own comparison. 2015-11-06T13:55:49Z baboon``: the price for equalp is so high, you'd write your own comparison function? 2015-11-06T13:56:08Z Shinmera: (loop for k being the hash-keys of m1 for v being the hash-values of m1 always (some-test v (gethash k m2))) 2015-11-06T13:56:12Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:56:28Z pjb: baboon``: It's not a question of price, it's a question that everybody writes tens of programs in which each a different equality function is needed! 2015-11-06T13:56:35Z baboon``: yeah said in two lines it doesn't look so bad :p 2015-11-06T13:56:43Z pjb: So, you can't fill the CL standard with thousands of different equalities! 2015-11-06T13:57:00Z ryu0: pjb: because you can't predict every possible use case? 2015-11-06T13:57:08Z pjb: Shinmera: you need to compare sets of keys. 2015-11-06T13:57:12Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-06T13:57:19Z baboon``: and that's macro-able, placing `some-test` as argument 2015-11-06T13:57:22Z Shinmera: pjb: Ah- right. 2015-11-06T13:57:32Z pjb: ryu0: you can predict all of them. They are just too numerous. 2015-11-06T13:57:44Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-06T13:57:46Z ryu0: pjb: and infinite? 2015-11-06T13:58:10Z pjb: Not if you have a finite set of variants with a finite set of alternatives each. 2015-11-06T13:58:10Z ryu0: people can probably keep adding use cases... 2015-11-06T13:58:13Z Shinmera: pjb: Though, just to add to your point, for some things you might only care about the values being the same even if the key sets are different :) 2015-11-06T13:58:24Z pjb: ryu0: this is really basic maths, I wonder why you ask. 2015-11-06T13:58:27Z baboon``: well thank you all, I go back to my koans before I dive through PCL. I enjoy it so far :) 2015-11-06T13:58:58Z pjb: Shinmera: definitely. But then you would test for a "subset" (sub-relationship) between the two hash-tables. 2015-11-06T13:59:19Z ryu0: pjb: was just curious what your reasoning was. i expected it would mainly be because it isn't pragmatic to include every possibility. 2015-11-06T13:59:33Z Shinmera: (dwim) 2015-11-06T13:59:37Z pjb: This is what I said: there would be too many of them. 2015-11-06T13:59:47Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:00:41Z ryu0: pjb: i guess my mistake was thinking it to be infinite. i just figured since people keep coming up with more and more things, the possibilities would keep growing indefinitely. 2015-11-06T14:00:59Z pjb: ryu0: in computing there is very few occasion of having real infinities. 2015-11-06T14:01:10Z ryu0: ah, that never occurred to me. 2015-11-06T14:01:22Z pyon quit (Quit: dang!) 2015-11-06T14:01:27Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T14:01:49Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:02:19Z native_killer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T14:02:25Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:02:32Z pjb: Sometimes there's a need for a common interface for the various ways of comparing. Then: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/cleqcmp.html 2015-11-06T14:03:11Z ryu0: i just recalled how in C, you frequently had to write forms of equality functions, such as for qsort and bsearch. 2015-11-06T14:03:21Z pjb: The funny thing is that if you want to compare strings, you might prefer to use EQUAL or EQUALP than STRING= or STRING-EQUAL. 2015-11-06T14:03:34Z pjb: Because the later also compare symbols and characters (string designators) ;-) 2015-11-06T14:03:50Z pjb: ryu0: same in lisp. For the same reason. 2015-11-06T14:04:20Z pjb: Having predefined equalities is useful, but only for general cases. In specific cases, you need specific equalities. 2015-11-06T14:04:27Z ryu0: it seemed like an infinite number of possible ways to define it. 2015-11-06T14:04:35Z ryu0: but, i suppose it isn't. 2015-11-06T14:04:38Z ryu0: it's just very large. 2015-11-06T14:04:44Z pjb: In maths there are an infinite number of equivalence relationships. 2015-11-06T14:04:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:04:52Z pjb: But in a computer, we're always limited by the finite memory. 2015-11-06T14:04:59Z ryu0: ah, so that's what you mean./ 2015-11-06T14:05:12Z ryu0: i'm getting theory and reality mixed up then? 2015-11-06T14:06:00Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:06:04Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:06:55Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-06T14:06:56Z ryu0: pjb: correct me if i'm wrong, but it appears to me that CL has few operators, most stuff appeared implemented as functions, macros, and such? 2015-11-06T14:07:07Z baboon``: might be silly but, can't you project a value as a representation of its atoms and compare that generically? 2015-11-06T14:07:10Z pjb: For example, in practice the set of all the strings you will process will be finite, because there will be a maximum length of all the strings. Then you could enumerate all the equivalence classes for strings of this maximum length. This would be a very big number, but very finite. 2015-11-06T14:07:27Z pjb: ryu0: all the macro, special operators and functions are operators. 2015-11-06T14:07:30Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:07:42Z ryu0: huh. okay. i'm thinking too much like C then. 2015-11-06T14:08:04Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T14:08:13Z ryu0: i was thinking only + and such as operators from C. i thought functions were separate. 2015-11-06T14:08:15Z pjb: ryu0: the distinction between special operators and macros is only useful in the context of the CLHS specification. In practice, implementation can choose what macro is implemented as a special operator, and what special operator is implemented as a macro. 2015-11-06T14:08:42Z pjb: baboon``: of course, in enumerating all the combinations, you would decompose the compound objects and enumerates on their components. 2015-11-06T14:08:48Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:10:14Z ryu0: pjb: clearly i need to study more mathematics, but i've taken enough for functional to make sense i guess. 2015-11-06T14:10:21Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T14:10:35Z ryu0: pjb: thanks again for your help. 2015-11-06T14:11:16Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:11:51Z pjb: There are good books: http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Physics-Programmers-Charles-Development/dp/1584503300 2015-11-06T14:12:37Z ryu0: pjb: what level do i need to be able to understand this? 2015-11-06T14:12:46Z ryu0: i haven't taken any calculus yet. 2015-11-06T14:13:52Z pjb: It's hard for me to tell, because I've been educated in France, where the levels are actually quite different from the USA. But basically, you don't need much of what is taught at university level, only school before university. 2015-11-06T14:14:05Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-06T14:14:08Z pjb: But then, it seems that you need 2 years into university in the USA to reach the same level… 2015-11-06T14:15:00Z ryu0: i've taken all the prereqs to calculus, our college level algebra and trigonometry. 2015-11-06T14:15:14Z ryu0: just haven't started it. wasn't required for my major. 2015-11-06T14:15:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:15:30Z pjb: You could try TAOCP (it's a little expensive, with 4 volumes), but if you're beginning it would be the right time to study it. 2015-11-06T14:15:51Z pjb: http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043 2015-11-06T14:16:10Z ryu0: i'm not a novice, but i am only just starting to study formally really... 2015-11-06T14:16:36Z ryu0: wow. 2015-11-06T14:16:42Z pjb: Then it's a good study. And since it's all about algorithms, you only learn relevant maths with it. 2015-11-06T14:16:56Z ryu0: yeouch. i'll add it to my wish list. 2015-11-06T14:17:17Z ryu0: i have a pile of books I bought on C, CL, and discrete mathematics. 2015-11-06T14:17:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:17:25Z ryu0: just haven't got to them yet. 2015-11-06T14:17:43Z pjb: start reading the books about discrete mathematics. 2015-11-06T14:17:45Z ryu0: i fully expect to keep using C, just not as much. 2015-11-06T14:17:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:18:14Z ryu0: CL is feeling liberating for a lot of work. 2015-11-06T14:18:25Z ryu0: doesn't take as long to make things happen. 2015-11-06T14:18:29Z pjb: Yes, sometimes you have to fall back to C, but it's very rare. Once every two or three years. 2015-11-06T14:18:32Z warweasle: ryu0: :) 2015-11-06T14:19:06Z ryu0: it was helpful though in learning what low level operations are cheap and expensive and such... 2015-11-06T14:19:30Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T14:19:30Z ryu0: it seems system calls in general are expensive if used too frequently. 2015-11-06T14:20:05Z ryu0: i'd guess that's part of why you want to buffer writes and reads if possible. 2015-11-06T14:21:03Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:21:10Z pjb: If you want to relax, I would advise you to read GEB: http://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1446819662&sr=1-1&keywords=GEB 2015-11-06T14:21:16Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:21:54Z shookees quit (Quit: TATA AND FAREWELL) 2015-11-06T14:23:00Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:26:06Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:26:46Z warweasle: ryu0: You can use the clib library for a lot of things. they buffer for you. 2015-11-06T14:27:03Z ryu0: warweasle: i'm aware. that's part of the 'magic' that happens in FILE struct. 2015-11-06T14:27:09Z warweasle: pjb: I never finished. Worth it? 2015-11-06T14:27:34Z pjb: warweasle: GEB? Definitely. I consider it the best book of the XXth century. 2015-11-06T14:27:39Z warweasle: ryu0: My apologies. I assumed you were less experienced that you are. 2015-11-06T14:27:41Z ryu0: there's a lot of implementation details in FILE struct, especially on POSIX. 2015-11-06T14:27:52Z ryu0: i'm just not experience in CL. 2015-11-06T14:27:59Z ryu0: i am experienced with C and posix to some degree. 2015-11-06T14:28:22Z ryu0: about 8 years now, but i can see it has hindered my thinking in some respects. 2015-11-06T14:28:30Z warweasle: ryu0: I use C and other languages at work. I use lisp at home and for data processing to keep from burning out. 2015-11-06T14:29:18Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:29:29Z ryu0: supposedly you can wrap FILE around any file descriptor, but i haven't tried them all. 2015-11-06T14:29:36Z ryu0: fdopen i believe is the function? 2015-11-06T14:30:01Z warweasle: ryu0: Yes. Then you can set various properties with ioctrl 2015-11-06T14:30:07Z ryu0: ioctl. 2015-11-06T14:30:16Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-06T14:30:44Z ryu0: yea, i've used it on device files and such, but that's typically an implementation specific thing. 2015-11-06T14:31:03Z warweasle: Did anyone mention Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. (PAIP) 2015-11-06T14:31:35Z warweasle: That book really pushed my undersanding of lisp...And prolog. 2015-11-06T14:31:40Z pjb: A good introduction to CL, and some good CL examples. 2015-11-06T14:31:47Z ryu0: warweasle: i assume you've heard of open_memstream and fmemopen? 2015-11-06T14:31:59Z warweasle: ryu0: Yes. 2015-11-06T14:32:12Z ryu0: k. another way i saw to open memory buffers. 2015-11-06T14:32:17Z ryu0: err as FILE. 2015-11-06T14:32:38Z ryu0: i found it fun. i used it in some cases to get a library to write to memory. :) 2015-11-06T14:33:46Z warweasle: ryu0: Thank you for reminding me of it. I could use that today, in fact. 2015-11-06T14:34:09Z warweasle has a bad habit of using the Boheim(sp) garbage collector. 2015-11-06T14:34:16Z ryu0: i find ISO C boring anyway. It's more fun to use C with extensions. :D 2015-11-06T14:35:14Z ryu0: warweasle: from experience, the one language i hate the most is unix shell scripts. -_- 2015-11-06T14:35:36Z lmj quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-06T14:35:37Z ryu0: haha. 2015-11-06T14:35:46Z pjb: ryu0: you can write your scripts in CL. I've been writing my unix scripts in clisp since 2000. 2015-11-06T14:36:01Z ryu0: i intend to. 2015-11-06T14:36:12Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:36:20Z ryu0: i only use shell these days for quick hack jobs where i don't care about much flexibility. 2015-11-06T14:36:49Z ryu0: mainly for personal automation. 2015-11-06T14:37:00Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-06T14:37:07Z warweasle: ryu0: It's good for that, but the syntax is a little difficult. 2015-11-06T14:37:27Z ryu0: i noticed. it's especially tedious to figure out how to correctly handle strings with spaces at times. 2015-11-06T14:37:42Z ryu0: especially if i have to use the eval function. XD 2015-11-06T14:38:56Z ryu0: warweasle: did you know the shell can perform integer arithmetic with $(( ))? 2015-11-06T14:39:17Z tsoutseki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T14:39:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:39:24Z ryu0: i believe it uses fixed size integers, but even so, it has some uses. 2015-11-06T14:40:42Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-06T14:41:05Z ryu0: yep. seems to use 64 bit signed integers. 2015-11-06T14:41:10Z ryu0: on my server. 2015-11-06T14:41:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T14:42:01Z warweasle: ryu0: I always used dc...as bad as it is. Or Perl when it's more than just if then statements. May as well make it easy on me. 2015-11-06T14:42:28Z ryu0: warweasle: true enough. i've started using awk for text processing in some cases. 2015-11-06T14:42:44Z ryu0: not hard to grasp once i started using it. 2015-11-06T14:42:46Z warweasle: ryu0: I don't really like awk, but sed I understand. 2015-11-06T14:43:03Z ryu0: oh? awk doesn't seem complicated. 2015-11-06T14:43:15Z ryu0: and seems to allow more than sed does. 2015-11-06T14:43:18Z pjb: clisp -q -norc -x '(* 3 2)' 2015-11-06T14:43:24Z warweasle: ryu0: By the time I look up the answer I could have done it with perl. 2015-11-06T14:43:33Z ryu0: haha. good point. 2015-11-06T14:43:35Z thodg quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-06T14:43:44Z ryu0: i guess if you don't already know it. 2015-11-06T14:43:46Z ryu0: =p 2015-11-06T14:44:49Z pjb: alias x='clisp -q -norc -x' ; x '(* 3 2)' 2015-11-06T14:44:59Z pjb: You can't alias = in bash :-( 2015-11-06T14:45:22Z ryu0: pjb: on that subject, do you know if there's some repo for debian/ubuntu for the other major CL implementations? i only find SBCL. 2015-11-06T14:45:50Z pjb: ccl is written in ccl, so no (fetch it from http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html) 2015-11-06T14:45:51Z warweasle: ryu0: I think ECL has one. 2015-11-06T14:45:56Z pjb: cmucl idem. 2015-11-06T14:46:11Z ryu0: idem? 2015-11-06T14:46:27Z pjb: It's latin. 2015-11-06T14:46:37Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=idem 2015-11-06T14:46:46Z pjb: clisp is lacking a maintainer currently, so it may have been removed from current distributions. 2015-11-06T14:47:05Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:47:14Z pjb: abcl is written in java, so it may also have some difficulties being packaged in some distributions. 2015-11-06T14:47:41Z ryu0: java? does that mean it is capable of providing access to java apis as an extension? 2015-11-06T14:47:46Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-06T14:47:47Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T14:47:58Z ryu0: interesting. so it's a bit like clojure then. 2015-11-06T14:48:09Z pjb: It's better to fetch them and compile them yourself than to rely on distribution makers who don't care too much about lisp. 2015-11-06T14:48:21Z pjb: It's better than clojure, since it's CL! 2015-11-06T14:48:44Z ryu0: pjb: valid point. i can easily do that given my experience doing a lot of packaging of FOSS. 2015-11-06T14:49:30Z ryu0: pjb: are the majority of CL implementations implemented in C? 2015-11-06T14:49:36Z pjb: No, in CL. 2015-11-06T14:49:59Z warweasle: ryu0: It's a point of pride to implement lisp is lisp. 2015-11-06T14:50:01Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2015-11-06T14:50:03Z ryu0: okay. i was thinking part of them has to speak native machine code at some point. 2015-11-06T14:50:40Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:50:45Z pjb: Very little. Just to interface with libc. 2015-11-06T14:50:55Z warweasle: ryu0: ECL, since it's embedible is in C and C++, but it still compiles itself in a matter of speaking. 2015-11-06T14:50:56Z dTal: somebody had to speak machine code long ago, but they're dead now 2015-11-06T14:51:07Z ryu0: haha. 2015-11-06T14:51:11Z Guest14 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-06T14:51:12Z pjb: clisp an ecl are about half CL and half C. abcl is about half CL and half java. 2015-11-06T14:52:01Z warweasle: ryu0: There are also many bootstap lisp interpreters...And other lisps written as various tools. TinyScheme comes to mind. 2015-11-06T14:52:12Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-06T14:52:25Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T14:52:48Z ryu0: it was newLISP that got me interested in lisp again. i ended up wanting to do more so CL seemed like a good choice. 2015-11-06T14:53:15Z warweasle: ryu0: newLisp has some interesting features. 2015-11-06T14:53:27Z ryu0: CL just seems more mature and capable. 2015-11-06T14:53:37Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T14:53:42Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:54:08Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-06T14:54:54Z dTal: If I wanted to implement a language with basically lispy semantics, but a different syntax, would it be better to do it in Common Lisp or Scheme? Answers on a postcard 2015-11-06T14:54:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:54:57Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-06T14:54:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:55:09Z pjb: dTal: Common Lisp. 2015-11-06T14:55:17Z pjb: Since we have reader macros, it would be easier to do. 2015-11-06T14:55:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:55:22Z oleo: sup pjb 2015-11-06T14:55:22Z pjb: See for example Vacietis. 2015-11-06T14:55:35Z dTal: I suspected this 2015-11-06T14:55:43Z warweasle: dTal: Or PAIP-Prolog 2015-11-06T14:56:13Z warweasle: dTal: Or CL-JS. It's kind of cool. 2015-11-06T14:56:56Z dTal: kind of cool is insufficient! I need SUPER-cool! 2015-11-06T14:56:57Z shum joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:57:20Z ryu0: dTal: keep adding one to cool until it is >= SUPER-cool. :) 2015-11-06T14:57:26Z dTal: CL-JS is just Common Lisp, right? 2015-11-06T14:57:41Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T14:57:45Z ryu0: i thought it was a CL implementation that compiles to JS? 2015-11-06T14:57:46Z pjb: No, it's different. 2015-11-06T14:58:03Z ryu0: but, i believe it's not a complete implementation? 2015-11-06T14:58:37Z warweasle: ryu0: It did pretty well with the js-bullet library, but it's just too big to process. 2015-11-06T14:58:40Z Xach: cl-js is an implementation of a javascript runtime in Common Lisp. 2015-11-06T14:58:41Z faalentijn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T14:58:54Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-06T14:59:02Z warweasle: Xach: Does it compile to CL or is it an interpreter? 2015-11-06T14:59:04Z Xach: you feed it a javascript program and it runs it. 2015-11-06T14:59:08Z armour joined #lisp 2015-11-06T14:59:18Z Shinmera: JSCL is the CL implementation in JS 2015-11-06T14:59:19Z Xach: warweasle: I don't know. It was fast for its time, so I think it compiled. 2015-11-06T14:59:23Z Shinmera: though it isn't much of one at this point 2015-11-06T14:59:28Z warweasle: I seem to remember it can create lisp function. 2015-11-06T14:59:32Z Xach: I would like to try cl-js as an extension language for non-CL hackers sometime. 2015-11-06T14:59:50Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:00:01Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:00:05Z ryu0: Xach: you mean to extend a host application written in CL? 2015-11-06T15:00:12Z Xach: ryu0: Yes. 2015-11-06T15:00:28Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-06T15:00:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:00:50Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:00:51Z ryu0: but why JS? there's other languages i've seen used for extensions. huh. 2015-11-06T15:01:03Z pjb: JS is "popular". 2015-11-06T15:01:06Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:01:06Z ryu0: LUA being a big one, but mainly for C/C++ hosts from what i've seen. 2015-11-06T15:02:16Z ryu0: pjb: i see. i've never used JS but i've heard a lot of bad things about it. 2015-11-06T15:02:24Z ryu0: in short a lot of things i read said it sucks. 2015-11-06T15:02:31Z dTal is wondering how much work it would take to reimplement Nial, given the semantics are all but the same as Lisp but the interpreter sucks 2015-11-06T15:02:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:03:04Z Xach: ryu0: because cl-js exists and other things don't. 2015-11-06T15:03:13Z ryu0: Xach: well, that's good enough reason. 2015-11-06T15:03:25Z ryu0: the other languages don't exist in native CL. 2015-11-06T15:03:27Z ryu0: that i know of. 2015-11-06T15:03:32Z Xach: or not as well-done, or easy to use 2015-11-06T15:03:34Z pjb: cl-python 2015-11-06T15:03:39Z pjb: LSE 2015-11-06T15:03:44Z warweasle: ryu0: It's not bad for what it is. If you need a safe language (js by itself can't do anything) to embed. It's actually pretty nice. I used it to run hardware test scripts on aircraft testers. 2015-11-06T15:04:02Z ryu0: as long as it's just a scripting language? 2015-11-06T15:04:03Z pjb: There are a ton of languages: http://cliki.net/programming%20language 2015-11-06T15:04:54Z faalentijn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T15:04:57Z ryu0: BASIC!? haha. 2015-11-06T15:05:05Z warweasle: ryu0: I used SpiderMonkey and added in my interface functions. The REPL really helped development. In fact, that's how the test hardware comunicates with everything else. Through an ssh connection. 2015-11-06T15:05:15Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-06T15:05:33Z ryu0: so it has ethernet or some other network device? 2015-11-06T15:05:34Z warweasle: ryu0: Did I mention this was an embedded environment. 2015-11-06T15:05:57Z warweasle: ryu0: Yes, it is controlled by a laptop so we could future proof it. 2015-11-06T15:06:11Z ryu0: ethernet is likely to remain for some time... 2015-11-06T15:06:23Z warweasle: ryu0: That was our thinking as well. 2015-11-06T15:06:26Z ryu0: most reliable way of networking i've ever seen. 2015-11-06T15:06:27Z dTal: SHame the Blocky link is dead, it sounds interesting 2015-11-06T15:06:36Z ryu0: wifi is spotty. 2015-11-06T15:06:38Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-06T15:06:43Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:07:02Z ryu0: warweasle: i imagine you could get away with capping it at 10 megabit? 2015-11-06T15:07:19Z ryu0: how fast does a communication link need to be for that? 2015-11-06T15:07:29Z ryu0: err not fast 2015-11-06T15:07:32Z ryu0: but bandwidth. 2015-11-06T15:09:19Z warweasle: ryu0: Not fast, it was just sending "command line like" strings to the java interpreter and it sent stuff back. 2015-11-06T15:09:44Z warweasle: ryu0: We also used scp to get files from the device. 2015-11-06T15:10:17Z warweasle: ryu0: Way overkill too. 1024 bit key based authentication. 2015-11-06T15:10:21Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:11:07Z warweasle: ryu0: But we kept the link at full 100Mbs 2015-11-06T15:15:38Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:17:27Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:18:33Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:21:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:21:48Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:22:06Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:23:21Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-06T15:23:56Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:28:53Z ryu0: warweasle: ah. 2015-11-06T15:29:13Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:29:29Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:30:11Z ryu0: warweasle: at least it provides more bandwidth than serial, like RS232 -_- 2015-11-06T15:31:35Z wuzzz joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:32:02Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:33:15Z ryu0: warweasle: oh yea. it can also be used to lock-out unauthorized clients, if you only permit key login. 2015-11-06T15:33:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:33:57Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T15:34:02Z wuzzz: #Shinmera: I figured out my threading issue. At some point I'd started using a global to store the result of the (make-instance 'my-qt-app) call and passing that to the qt main loop. this was to allow me to invoke methods of the class while in the repl and while having the qt main loop run in another thread. saving images using qtools in this way resulted in threading errors, 2015-11-06T15:34:24Z wuzzz: changing this back to passing the result of the make-instance call directly to the qt main loop solved that problem 2015-11-06T15:34:34Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T15:34:34Z Shinmera: Huh, alright. 2015-11-06T15:34:49Z Shinmera: Well, glad you figured it out! 2015-11-06T15:36:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:36:53Z wuzzz: At the moment, after I modified deploy.lisp and my local asdf file, trying to use ccl to save an image and kernel with application-type set to :gui results in an application window that will hang shortly after handing a few gui events. I'll stick with the :console deployment for now, this is just a one off app 2015-11-06T15:38:12Z Shinmera: Hm, that's odd. 2015-11-06T15:38:20Z wuzzz: I did try using qtools to build all of the examples as standalone apps, and the only one that worked on ccl was the helloworld app. the rest either caused ccl to crash or with the melody app, there was an error about lacking a smokephonon.dll or somesuch. when I get back to regular internet I'll put together some issues with specifics, unless you get to them first 2015-11-06T15:38:45Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T15:38:54Z leafyba__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T15:39:02Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:39:09Z Shinmera: I probably won't, I'm pretty busy with university, much to my own chagrin. 2015-11-06T15:39:33Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:40:48Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:40:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:41:10Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:41:55Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:42:11Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T15:42:11Z wuzzz: cool. I appreciate the simple deployment script, it cuts down on the acrobatics necessary to get a binary out the door. 2015-11-06T15:42:18Z wuzzz: so thank you very much! 2015-11-06T15:42:50Z Shinmera: Sure. I just wish things worked as they should on CCL too. 2015-11-06T15:43:04Z quasus quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-06T15:43:13Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:43:13Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:43:26Z wuzzz: it seems to be an issue with commonqt and ccl and windows, at least. Those are the common threads so far 2015-11-06T15:43:49Z wuzzz: I can reproduce the issue with my manual method of wrapping up the binaries without using qtools 2015-11-06T15:43:53Z Shinmera: May be. CommonQt Windows is sadly rather untested. 2015-11-06T15:44:03Z Shinmera: Especially on CCL 2015-11-06T15:44:09Z wuzzz: lol figures 2015-11-06T15:45:30Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-06T15:46:09Z wuzzz: the sooner I can ditch windows the happier I'll be 2015-11-06T15:47:27Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T15:48:31Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:48:45Z Shinmera: Well, at least qt-libs worked right away, so I'm happy about that. 2015-11-06T15:54:20Z clop2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T15:54:22Z snv: wuzzz, LUNIX IS TEH OPERATIANSHHIAN SYSTAM OF TEH 1337 HAXX0RZZZZ THAT PWN ALL IN QUAEK 3 BECAUSE IT SI MANS GAEM@!111ONEONEELEVEN 2015-11-06T15:54:40Z Shinmera: Did you have a stroke? 2015-11-06T15:54:46Z wuzzz: snv: I like your enthusiasm 2015-11-06T15:55:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:55:28Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:56:09Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-06T15:59:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:00:24Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Didn't you read CLHS? 2015-11-06T16:15:20Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T16:15:30Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:15:39Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:15:46Z ajf-: i'll get to that in a sec pjb 2015-11-06T16:16:00Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T16:16:03Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_enviro.htm 2015-11-06T16:16:05Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:17:46Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:18:21Z ajf-: nice thanks 2015-11-06T16:18:35Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:19:47Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T16:19:50Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-06T16:20:40Z clop joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:21:20Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:22:06Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:22:08Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:22:46Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:22:47Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T16:23:03Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-06T16:23:22Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T16:23:47Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:23:49Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:26:03Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-06T16:28:23Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:29:34Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-06T16:33:48Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T16:33:48Z bb010g quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T16:34:11Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T16:34:36Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(I don't know how to do that, but sounds very possible) 2015-11-06T17:40:25Z nyef: Why do you want to do this? 2015-11-06T17:41:05Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-06T17:41:15Z Posterdati: I need to read 8 bits from an i2c device, select the specified bits change them and then write back 2015-11-06T17:41:30Z wuzzz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T17:42:34Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:46:13Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:46:21Z pyon quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-11-06T17:46:38Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T17:46:46Z Posterdati: no idea> 2015-11-06T17:46:48Z Posterdati: ? 2015-11-06T17:47:21Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T17:47:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T17:47:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:47:58Z mordocai: Posterdati: This looks like it has some relevant info on bit level operations https://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter18.html 2015-11-06T17:48:07Z mordocai: Not sure how up to date it is or anything though 2015-11-06T17:50:06Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T17:50:06Z Posterdati: mordocai: thanks 2015-11-06T17:50:33Z mordocai: Posterdati: also this http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1205 2015-11-06T17:50:47Z Posterdati: I'm on it! Thanks 2015-11-06T17:51:23Z nzambe: Posterdati:you're using lisp to work with a microcontroller? 2015-11-06T17:51:29Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:51:41Z Posterdati: nzambe: more or less 2015-11-06T17:53:19Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-06T17:53:40Z haom joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:53:44Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-06T17:54:49Z raphaelsss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T17:55:25Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-06T18:00:43Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T18:01:22Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It lets you access bits from an integer as their own integer. 2015-11-06T20:11:48Z mordocai: White_Flame: Posterdati's original question, btw, was for "decimal" not integer. I only linked integer stuff because that was what I was able to find. 2015-11-06T20:12:42Z White_Flame: hmm, aren't decimal libs usually built on top of rationals, so this should still work? 2015-11-06T20:12:53Z mordocai shrugs 2015-11-06T20:13:09Z mordocai: I don't really have any knowledge on the subject, was just trying to help look things up 2015-11-06T20:13:15Z White_Flame: hmm, probably not. rational should never be an integer, thinking about it :) 2015-11-06T20:13:16Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-06T20:13:56Z White_Flame: but if it's microcontroller and i2c stuff, sounds like it's actually integer, not decimal 2015-11-06T20:14:05Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:14:57Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I particularly liked it when you asked to hear more on the on-hold music. 2015-11-06T20:36:32Z faheem__: more of, sorry. 2015-11-06T20:37:12Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:38:24Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:39:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:40:59Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-06T20:41:52Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T20:42:53Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:43:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-06T20:43:21Z ofeliany left #lisp 2015-11-06T20:44:21Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T20:44:49Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-06T20:45:24Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: back later) 2015-11-06T20:45:44Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/togo/ was the first one i did, many years ago 2015-11-06T20:45:59Z ovx999 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T20:49:09Z haom left #lisp 2015-11-06T20:49:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:49:57Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-06T20:50:03Z TMM_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:50:50Z faheem__: Xach: So this is some kind of hobby, then? :-) 2015-11-06T20:50:57Z Xach: not any more 2015-11-06T20:51:31Z faheem__: Huh, do scammers actually respond to emails then? I've never replied, so I don't know. 2015-11-06T20:51:36Z faheem__: Apparently in that case. 2015-11-06T20:51:58Z faheem__: I guess they can't rob you if they don't reply, so... 2015-11-06T20:51:59Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-06T20:52:08Z faheem__: It's just hard to imagine real people typing all that drivel. 2015-11-06T20:53:36Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-06T20:54:15Z faheem__: Family photos? Cute. 2015-11-06T20:54:54Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:55:17Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:56:22Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:58:10Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-06T20:59:31Z RY58304 joined #lisp 2015-11-06T21:00:33Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-06T21:01:00Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-06T21:02:16Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-06T21:03:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-07T00:50:25Z jackdaniel: exactly 2015-11-07T00:50:36Z jackdaniel: there is also quicklisp helper (get-quicklisp) 2015-11-07T00:50:37Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T00:50:53Z antonv: that's what we can call embeddable common lisp :) 2015-11-07T00:50:57Z jackdaniel: but libssl isn't bundled yet, so anything depending on cl+ssl will fail 2015-11-07T00:52:28Z antonv: jackdaniel: haw about cross compiling lisp programs for android? 2015-11-07T00:52:45Z antonv: i.e. buld lisp program on your desktop machine, and deploy it to android 2015-11-07T00:52:49Z jackdaniel: it's next on the roadmap (cross compilation in general) 2015-11-07T00:52:54Z antonv: can you do this? 2015-11-07T00:52:54Z jackdaniel: and yeah, it will be possible 2015-11-07T00:52:56Z antonv: ah, ok 2015-11-07T00:53:01Z jackdaniel: yes, but it's painful right now 2015-11-07T00:54:17Z antonv: jackdaniel: btw, are there cloud android servers? 2015-11-07T00:54:28Z antonv: can I install android on an ARM cloud hosting? 2015-11-07T00:54:42Z znpy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T00:54:47Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-07T00:54:49Z jackdaniel: I don't know, never did that 2015-11-07T00:55:25Z antonv: ok 2015-11-07T00:57:02Z jackdaniel: goodnight o/ 2015-11-07T00:58:30Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:01:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:04:51Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:04:59Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:06:30Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-07T01:07:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:09:05Z cpc26_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T01:09:13Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:09:21Z Guest27734 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:09:37Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:10:03Z Guest27734 left #lisp 2015-11-07T01:12:20Z antonv: jackdaniel: goodnight! 2015-11-07T01:13:41Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:16:45Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T01:17:31Z low-prof1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:19:28Z nimiux quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:19:48Z nimiux joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:20:10Z low-prof1 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:21:53Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T01:23:23Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-07T01:24:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:25:44Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:26:38Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:28:00Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:28:00Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T01:31:34Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T01:32:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:33:01Z aiwaz is now known as Uroboros 2015-11-07T01:34:22Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:34:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:35:27Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:37:03Z srh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T01:38:12Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:38:15Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T01:40:34Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T01:41:02Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:41:15Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:41:38Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T01:42:12Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:42:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:42:51Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:43:02Z NeverDie_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-07T01:43:33Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:44:08Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:44:18Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:46:45Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T01:49:12Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-07T01:50:12Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T01:53:03Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:53:39Z chu joined #lisp 2015-11-07T01:54:03Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've installed the libraries using quickload, I even try loading with quickload each time I load the file.. but I keep getting compile errors 2015-11-07T02:45:47Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T02:46:40Z RazWelle1: Here's the error and code https://gyazo.com/066b73ca58b306c76330fa7967263a0b 2015-11-07T02:47:22Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T02:47:50Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-07T02:50:16Z jason_m: RazWelle1: Are you sure you've quickloaded parenscript? 2015-11-07T02:51:23Z antonv: RazWelle1: note, that ; starts a comment 2015-11-07T02:52:18Z tokenrove quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T02:53:09Z RazWelle1: jason_m: antonv, I've tried including and not including and several variations inbetween 2015-11-07T02:53:33Z jason_m: RazWelle1: what do you mean when you say 'including'? 2015-11-07T02:53:40Z RazWelle1: I think I'm missing something but I can't tell what- I tried doing the (load and (ql:whatever at the beginning of the file but others tell me Is houldn't need that once I've quicklisp installed it in a previous session 2015-11-07T02:53:48Z RazWelle1: commented and non-commented 2015-11-07T02:54:15Z antonv: RazWelle1: execute a single expression (ql:quickload :parenscript) 2015-11-07T02:54:18Z antonv: what do you see? 2015-11-07T02:54:51Z antonv: ha 2015-11-07T02:54:58Z antonv: you are compiling the file! 2015-11-07T02:55:02Z antonv: _compiling_ 2015-11-07T02:55:11Z RazWelle1: I run c-c c-k? 2015-11-07T02:55:21Z antonv: jason_m: he is _compiling_ 2015-11-07T02:55:29Z jason_m: antonv: Right, i see it 2015-11-07T02:55:33Z antonv: RazWelle1: don't compile the file 2015-11-07T02:55:45Z antonv: just execute one expression 2015-11-07T02:55:52Z jason_m: RazWelle1: Compiling (ql:quickload :parenscript) is not the same as *executing* it 2015-11-07T02:56:01Z RazWelle1: Oh, what was the command for that again? 2015-11-07T02:56:22Z RazWelle1: I was running C-c C-k to send buffer to interpreter 2015-11-07T02:56:23Z RazWelle1: or so I thought 2015-11-07T02:56:25Z antonv: RazWelle1: stay rith after the expression and press C-x C-e 2015-11-07T02:56:42Z antonv: right after the expression 2015-11-07T02:57:13Z RazWelle1: Huh, that worked 2015-11-07T02:57:20Z RazWelle1: How do I do that for the entire file? >_> 2015-11-07T02:57:20Z jason_m: RazWelle1: C-c C-k compiles the file and loads the compiled result 2015-11-07T02:57:46Z RazWelle1: Ahh, I see 2015-11-07T02:58:22Z jason_m: RazWelle1: If you are just playing around, you can run the quickload's in your repl before loading your program(s) 2015-11-07T02:58:42Z antonv: RazWelle1: I always use C-x C-e 2015-11-07T02:58:53Z RazWelle1: jason_m: What can I do if I'm working with a lot of changes and want to send them all to the buffer at once? 2015-11-07T02:58:58Z antonv: that way I write program function by function 2015-11-07T02:59:34Z RazWelle1: What about when you're starting a new session? Like.. you've closed it and killed the program and you start again 2015-11-07T02:59:50Z RazWelle1: Or you want to re-establish a base image 2015-11-07T03:00:50Z RazWelle1: Oh, slime-eval-buffer I guess, thanks so much for solving that guys 2015-11-07T03:01:07Z antonv: RazWelle1: the closest to your current variant is to change top of your file to this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158676 2015-11-07T03:01:26Z antonv: that way you can compile it, and also just load without compiling 2015-11-07T03:01:44Z RazWelle1: Ooh that's handy 2015-11-07T03:01:53Z antonv: Later you will want to create and ASDF system for your work 2015-11-07T03:01:55Z jason_m: RazWelle1: You might want to take a look at ASDF for a common way to solve the problem of loading dependencies (like parenscript) first 2015-11-07T03:02:06Z antonv: yes yes 2015-11-07T03:02:24Z RazWelle1: ok, adding asdf to my to-read list then, that tutorial didn't cover any of that :( 2015-11-07T03:02:25Z antonv: you will create and .asd file where you specify the dependencies 2015-11-07T03:02:39Z jason_m: but when you're just getting started, you an always hop over to the repl and load what you need 2015-11-07T03:02:43Z antonv: RazWelle1: when you ready to try ask here 2015-11-07T03:02:48Z RazWelle1: So.. should I never compile then? I'm a little clueless why compiling gunked things up 2015-11-07T03:02:57Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:03:12Z jason_m: yes - you can compile! the problem was that parenscript was not yet loaded 2015-11-07T03:03:37Z RazWelle1: Ohhh, so that's why the last item in the defpackage list was always causing a problem then 2015-11-07T03:03:54Z RazWelle1: Oh I see now, after evaluation it compiles 2015-11-07T03:04:01Z jason_m: that's it! 2015-11-07T03:04:05Z RazWelle1: Thanks a bunch you two, you saved me a huge headache XD 2015-11-07T03:04:52Z jason_m: happy hacking! 2015-11-07T03:05:05Z RazWelle1: Will do! tyty! 2015-11-07T03:05:55Z Vulfe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T03:06:07Z antonv: RazWelle1: after the tutorial you may want to refer http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-11-07T03:06:48Z antonv: eval-when is explained in http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html 2015-11-07T03:07:11Z RazWelle1: antonv: Yeah, I started the tutorial because I wanted to get a quick feel for lisp web dev, I was going through the gigamonkeys book before then but I lost steam, so this is a nice way to get back into it 2015-11-07T03:07:36Z jason_m: RazWelle1: If I remember correctly, the hunchentoot web server interface has changed since that tutorial was written. if you can't figure out the correct change to make, just come back and ask. 2015-11-07T03:07:44Z s00pcan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T03:07:54Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:07:58Z jason_m: I worked through that tutorial myself 2 or 3 months ago 2015-11-07T03:08:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:08:15Z RazWelle1: jason_m: I'm actually hoping to use clacklisp after I finish this. What really intrigues me is writing lisp javascript and html all in the same place 2015-11-07T03:08:26Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:08:38Z antonv: RazWelle1: about gigamonkeys book, I sometime skipped the lyrics, just looked for concreete info 2015-11-07T03:09:01Z antonv: need to work with array? - find the chapter about arrays and lookup needed functions 2015-11-07T03:09:04Z jason_m: RazWelle1: Great, I don't want to add too many things to your reading list, but clack is a good one! 2015-11-07T03:10:59Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T03:11:07Z raz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:11:14Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:11:20Z raz_: lol I lost my irssi session 2015-11-07T03:11:47Z raz_: brb attempting to dig it back up 2015-11-07T03:11:49Z raz_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T03:13:20Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:16:18Z RazWelles joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:16:46Z RazWelles: jason_m: Sorry about that, lost my irssi session. Its sitting there.. I can even see it in this room XD but I hit some strange ctrl combination and lost it 2015-11-07T03:16:59Z RazWelles: But yeah I wanted to use clacklisp so I could pair it with nginx 2015-11-07T03:17:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:17:22Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:17:58Z jason_m: That tutorial could use another "update" - perhaps you could do a write-up on moving it over to clack! 2015-11-07T03:18:45Z RazWelles: Hehe, I'll let you know if I do. Its a shame that its so hard to find something that takes you from beginning to end quickstart with a basic lisp web-app 2015-11-07T03:19:07Z RazWelles: So maybe it would be good to have something like "use this, this this this this, and then here's some code, now you have a web app" 2015-11-07T03:19:23Z RazWelles: The emacs is a hard pill to swallow at first, I admit, though :( 2015-11-07T03:19:46Z RazWelles: I'm the emacs guy among a bunch of friends who use vim =P 2015-11-07T03:20:08Z jason_m: I'm also learning emacs. I just keep chipping away at the info manuals for emacs and slime, and it is slowly coming together :) 2015-11-07T03:20:35Z RazWelles: I really really like the feature where I get to have nyancat in my status bar 2015-11-07T03:20:55Z jason_m: I tried using slimv with vim for a couple months before emacs. the repl is fussy and the whole experience isn't as rich in vim. 2015-11-07T03:21:20Z jason_m: I bet your vim friends don't have nyancat! 2015-11-07T03:21:23Z RazWelles: Yeah, lisp and emacs are rather intertwined atm, not a bad thing, but makes the entry point more difficult 2015-11-07T03:21:31Z RazWelles: XD no, but my sublime friends do 2015-11-07T03:22:31Z RazWelles: A friend watched me last night over skype screenshare, using emacs, becuse I kept making typoes in monodevelop (too used to emacs keybindings), and they thought it was neat how I could jump around really quickly 2015-11-07T03:23:33Z RazWelles idles for a bit, thanks jason and anton again :) 2015-11-07T03:23:55Z ovx999 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:23:56Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T03:24:02Z jason_m: np - good luck! 2015-11-07T03:24:30Z s00pcan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T03:24:56Z blubjr: the emacs shortcuts in osx are the nicest part about that os 2015-11-07T03:24:57Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:25:44Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:28:06Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T03:28:48Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T03:30:18Z tokik quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:31:09Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:31:19Z tokik joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:33:26Z s00pcan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T03:33:45Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:34:17Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:35:30Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:35:36Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T03:41:12Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T03:43:43Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:45:12Z peytonien quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T03:48:38Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:50:13Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:52:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:56:10Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T03:56:35Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-07T03:59:14Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T03:59:46Z badkins quit 2015-11-07T04:01:22Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:04:15Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:04:25Z pocket quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T04:10:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:12:06Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:13:51Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:13:59Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:14:21Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:15:09Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:21:05Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:24:08Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:25:31Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:28:39Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:29:12Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:33:06Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:33:20Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:33:45Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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So you should read the documentation of your specification. (And yes, often implementation 2015-11-07T04:48:50Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:49:32Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:52:42Z Xach: erjoalgo: what does java.util.Scanner do? 2015-11-07T04:55:05Z erjoalgo: it incrementally scans a string or a stream, gives me nextInt(), nextChar() methods 2015-11-07T04:55:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:55:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T04:55:45Z erjoalgo: i guess i could do it with ppcre 2015-11-07T04:55:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-07T04:56:14Z erjoalgo: but i'd have to manually store the state and i'd be kind of painful 2015-11-07T04:56:39Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:57:01Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-07T04:57:04Z erjoalgo: maybe this would be a good opportunity to learn clojure 2015-11-07T04:59:54Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T04:59:55Z Xach: erjoalgo: string-streams provide a stream interface to strings. 2015-11-07T05:00:18Z Xach: e.g. (with-input-from-string (stream "hello") (read-char stream)) => #\h 2015-11-07T05:02:01Z erjoalgo: "3 4 a b c\ne f g\nh i j 2 2 x y\nz z" I need to eg parse this into a matrix, the numbers are the dimensions of the matrix 2015-11-07T05:02:35Z Xach: There are many options. 2015-11-07T05:02:42Z erjoalgo: i guess I can use labels + ppcre to make my own nextInt(), etc, just wanted to see if there was something more convenient 2015-11-07T05:02:59Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:03:19Z erjoalgo: (also I can't read the whole thing into memory at once, so can't eg split) 2015-11-07T05:03:43Z Xach: I sometimes make little (or not all that little) state machines for that kind of thing. 2015-11-07T05:04:29Z erjoalgo: yeah. i'll just go with labels+ppcre for now, shouldn't be too bad 2015-11-07T05:04:41Z erjoalgo: (thanks) 2015-11-07T05:05:31Z erjoalgo: and I think ppcre is implemented as a dfa too 2015-11-07T05:05:52Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:07:54Z erjoalgo: actually i'm not even sure I can use streams with ppcre 2015-11-07T05:08:15Z |3b| quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T05:08:19Z Xach: ppcre operates on string input. 2015-11-07T05:08:27Z Xach: can you fit individual lines into memory? 2015-11-07T05:08:54Z erjoalgo: yeah, that would work 2015-11-07T05:09:04Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:10:48Z erjoalgo: (parse-integer "090 123" :junk-allowed t :start 3 )==> 90 3 2015-11-07T05:10:55Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:11:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-07T05:14:26Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:20:04Z erjoalgo: 2d char array in cl? 2015-11-07T05:20:13Z Xach: erjoalgo: that is not what I get from that form. 2015-11-07T05:20:45Z Xach: You can have a 2d character array in CL. 2015-11-07T05:21:14Z erjoalgo: sorry yeah. it was just me noticing i could use parse-integer incrementally. (parse-integer "090 123" :junk-allowed t :start 3 )==> 123 7 2015-11-07T05:23:02Z Xach: yes. the output can be used on the next call to parse the next number. 2015-11-07T05:23:29Z Raimondi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T05:23:57Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:24:24Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:24:59Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:26:33Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:26:50Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:29:26Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:35:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T05:36:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:37:08Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:38:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T05:38:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:40:05Z White_Flame: erjoalgo: are the newlines meaningful delimiters in there? if not, I'd just use regular READ or READ-FROM-STRING to get a list of numbers and symbols 2015-11-07T05:40:28Z White_Flame: oftentimes, I'll just surround the input with parens, and read as a single list 2015-11-07T05:40:30Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:40:33Z White_Flame: (as long as it's a trusted input) 2015-11-07T05:44:51Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:45:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:47:25Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:47:38Z johann_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T05:48:13Z White_Flame: e.g.: (read-from-string (format nil "(~a)" ...your input string...)) -> (3 4 A B C E F G H I J 2 2 X Y Z Z) 2015-11-07T05:49:05Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:52:10Z johann__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:53:36Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T05:55:02Z dmiles_afk quit 2015-11-07T05:55:38Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:57:03Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:57:25Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-07T05:57:40Z halfcrazy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T05:58:44Z TheSelector joined #lisp 2015-11-07T06:01:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T06:01:20Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T06:05:51Z ovx999 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T06:13:47Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-07T06:15:24Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T06:16:27Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-07T06:17:35Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T06:19:14Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(with-open-file (stream "device" :element-type 'bit :direction :io) (let ((byte (make-array 8 :element-type 'bit))) (read-sequence byte stream) (setf (aref byte 3) 1) (write-sequence byte stream))) 2015-11-07T07:06:48Z pjb: Posterdati: depending on the implementation, this may do the right thing. 2015-11-07T07:12:10Z pjb: erjoalgo: the question is whether the numbers are given in row major order or column major order. 2015-11-07T07:12:20Z pjb: If in row major order, then it's trivial to fill the matrix with them. 2015-11-07T07:13:29Z pjb: (let* ((w (read s)) (h (read s)) (m (make-array (list w h)))) (loop for i below (* w h) do (setf (row-major-aref m i) (read s))) m) 2015-11-07T07:14:02Z pjb: If it's in column major order, then as long as you only have matrix (fixed rank), you can write the two loops. 2015-11-07T07:14:28Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:14:59Z pjb: Oh, my common-lisp.net problem might be because I have an old repo referenced. Ignore it. 2015-11-07T07:15:31Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:22:27Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T07:29:26Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T07:30:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:37:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: erjoalgo: also, ABCL is really easy to use with Java 2015-11-07T07:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: erjoalgo: I saw someone's Jython script and threw this together just because: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/otp-travel-time-matrix/blob/master/test.lisp 2015-11-07T07:40:51Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:41:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (it's still rushed, and there's still a coupld bugs I haven't fixed yet on Github) 2015-11-07T07:46:48Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T07:50:46Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:55:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:55:57Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:57:39Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-07T07:57:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:02:27Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:02:59Z Guest14 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:05:57Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:08:25Z mea-culp` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-11-07T08:09:16Z constantine joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:11:17Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T08:15:24Z Guest14 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Even when set to (debug 3), there are frames and frame variables that are elided in the compiler. 2015-11-07T16:39:57Z Xach: interesting 2015-11-07T16:40:44Z LiamH: In fact, it is sometimes painfully literal on every frame, it is necessary to wade through a lot. 2015-11-07T16:41:05Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:42:13Z DeadTrickster: I think (debug 4) would be more helpful than entirely new contrib, but luckily I'm not the one who makes decisions :-) 2015-11-07T16:44:48Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:47:22Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T16:48:41Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:48:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:49:26Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:53:23Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T16:53:51Z scymtym: Xach: it also helps when hacking on the compiler 2015-11-07T16:54:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-07T16:54:34Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T16:57:53Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:00:04Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:02:20Z Xach: scymtym: how so? 2015-11-07T17:02:52Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T17:03:06Z scymtym: Xach: you can redefine (and inevitably break) things in the compiler without rendering your session unusable 2015-11-07T17:03:28Z Xach: cool 2015-11-07T17:03:36Z scymtym: for SBCL, testing things without doing a full rebuild makes a huge difference (seconds vs. minutes) 2015-11-07T17:03:46Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:04:01Z scymtym: does not work for all changes, of course 2015-11-07T17:05:30Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-07T17:06:17Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:07:36Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:07:43Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:08:19Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T17:10:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:13:21Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-07T17:17:41Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:18:13Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:18:15Z Vulfe quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T17:20:17Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:25:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-07T17:27:01Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T17:28:49Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T17:29:45Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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A full-cycle SBCL build on some of my hardware takes about an hour. 2015-11-07T17:37:06Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T17:37:17Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:39:26Z DeadTrickster: btw I'm seeing interesting glitch while using sb-concurrency mailbox. receive-message accepts timeout and if I throw something more than 0.1 sec semaphore enters endless loop 2015-11-07T17:39:40Z DeadTrickster: condition-wait basically returns T T each 0.5 sec 2015-11-07T17:40:52Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T17:41:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:41:34Z kyfho quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-07T17:43:25Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:44:04Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:45:45Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:49:31Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-07T17:49:44Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T17:49:56Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: could you paste a recipe for reproducing the issue? 2015-11-07T17:50:16Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:50:30Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:51:10Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, sadly no, from repl everything works as expected, but fails in my code. it's buggy and I'd like to investigate more 2015-11-07T17:51:17Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:52:12Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:52:52Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: ok, thanks 2015-11-07T17:53:07Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:53:14Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:54:09Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:54:26Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T17:54:37Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T17:55:37Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-07T17:55:54Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T17:56:16Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T17:59:06Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:10:26Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-07T18:13:10Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T18:13:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T18:15:07Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:17:11Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:17:13Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:18:09Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T18:19:37Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T18:20:03Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-07T18:21:19Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:21:34Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:24:02Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:24:25Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T18:26:00Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:28:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:28:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-07T18:28:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:33:41Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:34:19Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-07T18:34:59Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T18:36:04Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What if you have to parse an exisitng DSL into your "natural DSL" instead of programming in your natural DSL by hand. 2015-11-07T19:32:42Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T19:32:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T19:32:58Z physixer: In other words we have the Parse->Process->Generate idiom so prevalent in programming, is lisp/scheme superior for the whole idiom or just the 2nd half? (...Process->Generate) 2015-11-07T19:33:06Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T19:33:52Z physixer: or Input->Process->Output 2015-11-07T19:33:57Z p_l: physixer: often you can just translate the forms into S-Expression format, then use that to quickly handle the implementation 2015-11-07T19:35:40Z physixer: I think an argument could be made that I'm supposed to look at it from a different level of abstraction, i.e. I have to look at how "Input" is related to "Output", express it in my language, and then there shoud be some automated way to perform the conversion? 2015-11-07T19:36:51Z zm1 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T19:39:55Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T19:40:14Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-07T19:40:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T19:41:31Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-07T19:42:31Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T19:42:34Z pjb: physixer: 1- watch Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g https://vimeo.com/82301919 2015-11-07T19:43:33Z pjb: physixer: 2- checkout cl-ometa https://github.com/thiago-silva/cl-ometa 2015-11-07T19:43:49Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T19:44:33Z pjb: physixer: 3- lisp is superior for the whole, in that it allows to embed your DSL into lisp and vice-versa. 2015-11-07T19:47:00Z pjb: notably using reader macros in CL, you can add syntaxes different from the s-exps, when it's required. And macro expanding to lisp code let the DSL be compiled by the CL compiler and be fully integrated with CL. 2015-11-07T19:48:06Z jackdaniel: good example would be cl-python 2015-11-07T19:48:18Z pjb: or Vacietis 2015-11-07T19:48:21Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-11-07T19:48:30Z pjb: but they're extreme examples since they provide a whole new language. 2015-11-07T19:48:38Z jackdaniel: pjb: did you manage to build ecl for android after the clarification on the ml? 2015-11-07T19:49:35Z pjb: A better example of DSL, could be Objective-C where we introduce a few reader macros @[…] @"…" and […] to provide an Objective-C like syntax for the Objective-C bridge. 2015-11-07T19:50:15Z pjb: jackdaniel: nope. Still fails on win32.c 2015-11-07T19:51:35Z jackdaniel: uhm :| 2015-11-07T19:53:43Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-07T20:07:51Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:08:28Z dmv is now known as vhost- 2015-11-07T20:08:42Z haom left #lisp 2015-11-07T20:10:00Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T20:11:02Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:11:28Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-07T20:13:43Z nyef: pjb: How about xml-mixed-mode? 2015-11-07T20:14:33Z pjb: jackdaniel: ok, this allows the host ecl to be compiled. Unfortunately, the next configure fails with: http://paste.lisp.org/+3EHI/1 2015-11-07T20:14:38Z pjb: nyef: I don't know it. Perhaps. 2015-11-07T20:15:57Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:16:13Z nyef: pjb: It was a reader hack for #\< with explicit recognition of the symbols < and <= but otherwise creating XML structures. 2015-11-07T20:16:20Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-07T20:17:39Z jackdaniel: pjb: did you "make install"? 2015-11-07T20:17:55Z pjb: Yes, it's in the script. 2015-11-07T20:18:00Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:19:04Z pjb: But the executable produces the error. eg. ~/opt/toolchains/ecl-android-host/bin/ecl --version ==> Got signal before environment was installed on our thread ;;; 0 libecl.16.1.dylib 0x001b38ad si_dump_c_backtrace + 45 Abort trap: 6 2015-11-07T20:19:12Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:19:34Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-07T20:20:32Z jfe` is now known as jfe 2015-11-07T20:21:03Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T20:21:38Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:21:47Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:21:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: ok, it looks like I'm using gcc5 from MacPort. Perhaps I should use Apple's gcc? 2015-11-07T20:23:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: I don't know - never used OSX 2015-11-07T20:24:50Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T20:25:21Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T20:29:16Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T20:30:46Z ryu0: pjb: i thought newer macs had switched to clang? 2015-11-07T20:30:46Z mea-culp` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T20:31:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:31:33Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T20:32:17Z zm1 quit (Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS) 2015-11-07T20:34:02Z pjb: jackdaniel: ok, so you can put in the README that ecl shall be compiled with Apple's compiler, not with gcc 5 (from MacPort) ~/opt/toolchains/ecl-android-host/bin/ecl --version --> ECL 16.1.0 ; using the MacPort command: sudo port select --set gcc none 2015-11-07T20:34:19Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:35:03Z pjb: jackdaniel: but now the last configure: checking how to define a 32-bit word... configure: error: cannot determine how to define a 32-bit word / error: Failed to configure the GMP library. 2015-11-07T20:35:16Z schoppenhauer: hi. is there an smtp and imap library for common lisp? 2015-11-07T20:35:25Z jackdaniel: schoppenhauer: check out the mel-base 2015-11-07T20:35:26Z pjb: Yes. at least a couple of them. 2015-11-07T20:35:32Z pjb: use cliki.net 2015-11-07T20:36:17Z jackdaniel: pjb: ok, I'll add it. After switching the gcc did you come back to the original configure form the instructions? 2015-11-07T20:37:39Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, I isolated that problem 2015-11-07T20:37:51Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, will try to write short example 2015-11-07T20:39:20Z schoppenhauer: jackdaniel: hm, the links from mel-base on clicki do not work 2015-11-07T20:39:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T20:39:46Z jackdaniel: last time I've used it I think I downloaded it from the quicklisp 2015-11-07T20:39:50Z jackdaniel: but not sure 2015-11-07T20:40:00Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T20:40:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:40:39Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T20:40:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: yes, I reran all the configure. 2015-11-07T20:44:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-07T20:45:10Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-07T20:45:51Z jackdaniel: pjb: you may try --with-C-gmp=yes , then GMP will try to build itself with the portable C. Maybe that will mitigate this problem 2015-11-07T20:46:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to modify what happens when a particular CLOS slot is SETFed? 2015-11-07T20:46:58Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: thanks 2015-11-07T20:47:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, wrong phrasing 2015-11-07T20:47:10Z pjb: jackdaniel: no, same result. uppercase C ? 2015-11-07T20:47:18Z jackdaniel: I believe so 2015-11-07T20:47:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I need to think about this again :) 2015-11-07T20:47:46Z jackdaniel: did configure detect correctly arm-linux-androideabi-* things? 2015-11-07T20:48:16Z pjb: Seems so, I have lines like: checking if arm-linux-androideabi-gcc -fPIC -std=gnu99 supports -c -o file.o... (cached) yes 2015-11-07T20:48:55Z schoppenhauer: ok. it seems like mel-base is a sophisticated library. 2015-11-07T20:48:58Z schoppenhauer: I will look into it. 2015-11-07T20:49:35Z jackdaniel: yes, that looks OK 2015-11-07T20:50:04Z jackdaniel: it works fine on linux. The only thing what comes to my mind is to replace the GMP with the upstream version 2015-11-07T20:50:59Z pjb: I have this warning: Cannot determine global symbol prefix. nm output doesn't contain a global data symbol. Will proceed with no underscore. If this is wrong then you'll get link errors referring to ___gmpn_add_n (note three underscores). In this case do a fresh build with an override, ./configure gmp_cv_asm_underscore=yes 2015-11-07T20:51:03Z pjb: from configure. 2015-11-07T20:51:55Z jackdaniel: arguments to gmp configure are passed via --with-gmp=args 2015-11-07T20:56:04Z pjb: There's this warning: configure: Configuring included GMP library: configure: WARNING: you should use --build, --host, --target 2015-11-07T20:56:04Z pjb: 2015-11-07T20:56:11Z nyef quit (Quit: Shutting down, back late tonight or tomorrow) 2015-11-07T20:56:54Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T20:58:30Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe add ABI=32 in the second configure too? 2015-11-07T20:59:08Z jackdaniel: here is something similar to your problem http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24988221/gmp-compilation-for-ndk-error-oops-mp-limb-t-is-64-bits-but-the-assembler-cod 2015-11-07T20:59:56Z colorbodn joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:00:43Z pjb: Nope: configure: error: ABI=32 is not among the following valid choices: standard 2015-11-07T21:01:11Z pjb: (while configuring GMP). 2015-11-07T21:01:20Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:01:42Z jackdaniel: or add -m32 to CFLAGS 2015-11-07T21:01:48Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T21:01:51Z pjb: Tried, not supported. 2015-11-07T21:02:01Z jackdaniel: uhm 2015-11-07T21:02:27Z pjb: by the cross compiler. It was given in the host compiler configuraiton. 2015-11-07T21:02:30Z colorbodn: hello. I have a task of creating a particle simulation like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLMU6o7n4E4 in common lisp and I do not know how to go about it. I have gone through the Practical Lisp book and think i understand the basics of the language. I have not much programming experience, just a few months of making text based games in C and Javascript. 2015-11-07T21:02:54Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:03:13Z jackdaniel: pjb: do you use the cross compiler produced by make-standalone-toolchain.sh ? 2015-11-07T21:03:44Z pjb: checking whether we are cross compiling... yes 2015-11-07T21:03:44Z pjb: 2015-11-07T21:03:46Z pjb: it seems so. 2015-11-07T21:04:30Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, http://pastebin.com/UPYubKZK 2015-11-07T21:04:58Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: thanks, i will have a look 2015-11-07T21:05:22Z jackdaniel: idk then what the problem might be. As mentioned earlier you may try replacing bundled gmp with the upstream version - maybe it is already fixed bug 2015-11-07T21:06:08Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, I ended up in target thread somewhere in %decrement-semaphore (os something like that) and condition-wait always returned T 2015-11-07T21:06:12Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:06:20Z DeadTrickster: target-thread.lisp 2015-11-07T21:06:29Z pjb: jackdaniel: ok, I'll try that tomorrow. Thanks. 2015-11-07T21:06:39Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:06:45Z xyh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:06:53Z jackdaniel: sure. 2015-11-07T21:07:24Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: noted, thanks. i will try to reproduce the issue, but not right now 2015-11-07T21:07:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:08:20Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, also I forgot to mention consequences of commenting eventfd.read - basically eventfd become always readable and :read callback fired in the loop 2015-11-07T21:08:36Z DeadTrickster: on every iteration 2015-11-07T21:09:22Z DeadTrickster: each 2015-11-07T21:10:00Z DeadTrickster: anyway I tried to reproduce with just thread flood - no luck 2015-11-07T21:10:10Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T21:11:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:17:27Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:17:28Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:20:21Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:20:28Z colorbodn quit 2015-11-07T21:21:42Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-07T21:23:44Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:24:42Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:25:02Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:25:19Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T21:25:38Z joshee joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:26:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:26:19Z cmoney quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T21:26:19Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:27:27Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:28:24Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:28:35Z emlow quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:29:30Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:32:37Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:32:37Z oskarth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:33:01Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:33:11Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:33:36Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:33:45Z jperkin13 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:35:26Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:35:44Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:36:17Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:36:39Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:38:12Z constantine`` joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:38:24Z GUEST_4567345 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:39:30Z constantine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:41:22Z eazar001 is now known as dkilometers_afk 2015-11-07T21:41:28Z dkilometers_afk is now known as eazar001 2015-11-07T21:41:32Z jperkin13: Hi! I am new to the world of lisp, and looking to learn a lisp dialect to improve my understanding of the functional language paradigm (and hopefully ease the transition between languages like lisp, clojure, ocaml, f#, etc.). 2015-11-07T21:41:35Z Draz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:41:43Z jperkin13: I am considering learning scheme, but was wondering if common lisp would be better. I don't have much experience with lisp, but I've read that scheme is "minimal" compared to common lisp. Hopefully someone here can shed some light on whether I would learn just as much in scheme than common lisp. 2015-11-07T21:42:25Z Xach: common lisp is the best 2015-11-07T21:42:30Z GUEST_4567345 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-07T21:42:40Z Xach: (this is a channel devoted to only common lisp) 2015-11-07T21:42:53Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:42:56Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:43:23Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:44:06Z otwieracz: As a fan of common lisp, I'd suggest common lisp. 2015-11-07T21:44:23Z Xach: the situation is similar between both dialects. when you look at an actual implementation, it probably has everything you would want to use for real, interesting projects. one difference between scheme and CL is where the standard stops and the implementation begins. 2015-11-07T21:44:29Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:46:04Z jperkin13: If I were to learn CL, then I imagine that it would ease the transition to learning other lisp dialects because they all pretty much inherit from CL, right? The same could be said about languages that support the functional paradigm like ocaml/f#, right? 2015-11-07T21:46:24Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:46:27Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:46:44Z rtoym quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0/20150917150946]) 2015-11-07T21:46:55Z p_l: not really. What you *will* gain, though, is exposure to certain ideas that will make understanding other languages easier, even if they do it completely differently 2015-11-07T21:47:28Z Xach: jperkin13: no. 2015-11-07T21:47:42Z constantine`` left #lisp 2015-11-07T21:48:23Z otwieracz: And after long-time exposure to CL, you'll find yourself taking completetly different approach to programming in other languages. 2015-11-07T21:48:44Z p_l: jperkin13: generally, no matter what language, I recommend you try ones from wide variety of kinds - try CL, try scheme (more functionally-oriented and minimialistic compared to CL's industrial heritage), try Haskell, try OCaml (or other ML-family languages like SML), try Smalltalk, try Erlang, try Prolog 2015-11-07T21:49:46Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T21:52:51Z atgnag: I'd like to try using common lisp as assembler by essentially implementing assembly language as a DSL. Any resources you can suggest on this? 2015-11-07T21:53:49Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:55:21Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T21:55:26Z josteink quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-07T21:55:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T21:56:40Z Xach: atgnag: there are many existing assemblers you can learn from. the one that comes from movitz is interesting. 2015-11-07T21:58:43Z atgnag: All right. I'll take a look at that. 2015-11-07T21:58:57Z arrubin quit 2015-11-07T21:59:26Z atgnag: I have seen a few, but I've only ones for old architectures thus far. 2015-11-07T22:00:07Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-11-07T22:02:23Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-07T22:04:03Z PuercoPop: atgnag: You may find https://github.com/jaoswald/cl-comfy-6502/ interesting (and the texts from Baker it references) 2015-11-07T22:04:03Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T22:06:20Z atgnag: PuercoPop: Thanks. 2015-11-07T22:07:01Z p_l: also, there are some weird examples of using SBCL's compile innards to generate code 2015-11-07T22:07:02Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-07T22:08:29Z atgnag: Neat. I just discovered it's dissassemble function, so I wonder what else it has. 2015-11-07T22:09:57Z jperkin13 left #lisp 2015-11-07T22:10:51Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T22:11:25Z tharu joined #lisp 2015-11-07T22:11:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T22:12:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T22:13:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-07T22:14:10Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T22:14:37Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-07T22:15:52Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm guessing not FUNC? 2015-11-07T22:44:45Z jurov: ^ now i'm curious how to do it without using the string 2015-11-07T22:44:56Z jurov: yes, just a minimal example 2015-11-07T22:44:57Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-07T22:46:18Z jurov: what i want: (let ((var 'func)) (apply (something var) (params))) 2015-11-07T22:46:28Z jurov: what's the "something" here? 2015-11-07T22:48:56Z jurov: concrete example: (let ((var 'length)) (apply var ("abc"))) says "illegal function call" 2015-11-07T22:49:46Z resttime: Oh interesting didn't know APPLY and such could take a symbol as the function designator. 2015-11-07T22:49:55Z oleo_: try (let ((var (function 'length)))..... 2015-11-07T22:50:01Z resttime: jurov: '("abc") 2015-11-07T22:50:37Z resttime: The argument you give APPLY must be a list, it's trying to evaluating ("abc") 2015-11-07T22:50:39Z oleo_: ah yes 2015-11-07T22:50:55Z jurov: oh, with quote it works 2015-11-07T22:51:39Z oleo_: you don't need the () there 2015-11-07T22:51:49Z oleo_: (lenght "abc") -> 3 2015-11-07T22:52:08Z oleo_: apply var "abc" does it too 2015-11-07T22:54:22Z resttime: oleo_: (apply #'length "abc") does not work unless I'm misinterpreting something 2015-11-07T22:55:04Z jurov: heh thanks 2015-11-07T22:55:28Z oleo_: jep 2015-11-07T22:55:31Z otwieracz: (or use (funcall #'length "abc")) 2015-11-07T22:55:41Z oleo_: it's (funcall #'length "abc") 2015-11-07T22:55:47Z oleo_: == (length "abc") 2015-11-07T22:55:52Z otwieracz: yep. 2015-11-07T22:55:55Z otwieracz: Good night! 2015-11-07T22:56:22Z oleo_: apply awaits a list as it's second argument..... 2015-11-07T22:56:45Z oleo_: so it has to be (apply #'length '("abc")) 2015-11-07T22:57:05Z oleo_: funcall does not have that restriction 2015-11-07T22:57:58Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-11-07T23:03:16Z resttime: Ah whoops, more specifically the args for APPLY must be a "spreadable argument list designator" 2015-11-07T23:03:24Z resttime: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-11-07T23:04:17Z resttime: (apply '+ 1 2 '(3 4)) -> 10 2015-11-07T23:04:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-07T23:05:23Z oleo_: 1 2 '(3 4) in that case is seen as '(1 2 3 4) 2015-11-07T23:07:07Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-07T23:09:49Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-07T23:10:59Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-07T23:12:06Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-07T23:14:02Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-07T23:15:06Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-07T23:16:26Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T00:06:58Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:08:14Z phoe_krk: (in-package :scotland) 2015-11-08T00:08:20Z phoe_krk: (proclaim 'independence) 2015-11-08T00:09:02Z oleo: (in-package :scotland) 2015-11-08T00:09:13Z oleo: (square (the yard)) 2015-11-08T00:09:58Z oleo: (in-package :scotland) 2015-11-08T00:10:29Z oleo: (push 'kilt 'down) 2015-11-08T00:10:35Z oleo: lol 2015-11-08T00:11:15Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T00:11:22Z resttime: (push 'down 'kilt) 2015-11-08T00:11:57Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:14:35Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:16:42Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:17:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:17:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-08T00:17:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:17:52Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:18:32Z p_l: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-34748795 2015-11-08T00:22:14Z physixer quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-08T00:24:35Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:26:04Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T00:28:46Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T00:29:30Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:33:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:35:54Z badkins quit 2015-11-08T00:37:31Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-08T00:39:15Z anderoonies joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:40:38Z cagmz quit 2015-11-08T00:41:43Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T00:43:54Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-11-08T00:44:56Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(loop for value in (cdr plist) by #'cddr collect value) 2015-11-08T01:41:27Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T01:42:16Z Xach: you can stick the values in the DO binding list, too. 2015-11-08T01:42:25Z Xach: you could do everything in the bindings, really 2015-11-08T01:43:08Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-11-08T01:43:20Z ryu0: Bike: did you notice he had that qualifier "without LOOP" in there? o.O 2015-11-08T01:43:29Z Bike: i did 2015-11-08T01:43:34Z ryu0: okay. just checking. 2015-11-08T01:43:46Z resttime: TCO version http://paste.lisp.org/display/158776 2015-11-08T01:44:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T01:46:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-08T01:47:11Z axion: thanks 2015-11-08T01:47:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T01:48:33Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T01:48:52Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T01:56:59Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T01:59:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:04:34Z |3b|: for easy, and if using libs counts as "without loop", (mapcar 'cdr (alexandria:plist-alist ...)) 2015-11-08T02:04:46Z |3b| wonders why alexandria doesn't hand plist-values to match hash-table-values 2015-11-08T02:06:03Z |3b|: *have 2015-11-08T02:08:58Z aiwaz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-08T02:09:16Z aiwaz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:11:55Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T02:13:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:17:50Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:18:52Z mrcom joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:20:46Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:26:34Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T02:27:01Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T02:27:08Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:29:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:32:09Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T02:32:12Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T02:38:20Z axion: hmm i'm trying to understand why my slime indents loop wrongly 2015-11-08T02:39:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-08T02:39:37Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-08T02:40:45Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:40:50Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:41:00Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T02:41:17Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:41:39Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T02:41:39Z CEnnis91 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T02:43:46Z axion: if i have an 'unless' clause before 'do', then 'do' is indented more. i have never seen this before or know what has changed with slime/emacs for it to do this 2015-11-08T02:45:17Z White_Flame: I've always seen loop indent strangely. It's just an artifact of being a sub-language, if I were to guess 2015-11-08T02:45:47Z White_Flame: it doesn't have the explicit AST built in, as sexprs do 2015-11-08T02:45:50Z axion: maybe i'm just used to slimv doing it right 2015-11-08T02:46:08Z axion: i don't know if i ever noticed slime doing this before, as i've only been using emacs for a couple weeks 2015-11-08T02:47:57Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:48:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:54:21Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T02:54:38Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:54:51Z Zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-11-08T02:57:28Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-08T03:03:49Z rhg135 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:04:46Z |3b|: what's wrong with indenting the loop clauses affected by the conditional? 2015-11-08T03:05:17Z |3b| wouldn't complain about not doing it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to do 2015-11-08T03:05:43Z |3b|: i think that might be one of the things the slime-indentation contrib handles though, so might look there for a way to configure it if you don't like it 2015-11-08T03:06:33Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T03:13:46Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:17:08Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-08T03:17:31Z ryu0: imagine that. there's an ISO standard for Lisp. I thought ANSI CL was it. 2015-11-08T03:17:41Z ryu0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLISP 2015-11-08T03:18:03Z Bike: ansi and iso are different organizations, though standards organizations are really boring and mixing them up is understandable 2015-11-08T03:18:21Z pocket quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-08T03:18:37Z ryu0: Bike: i realize that. it's just sometimes i've seen ISO takes ANSI standards and take them further. 2015-11-08T03:19:06Z ryu0: iirc, ANSI C eventually became a basis for ISO C standard for example? 2015-11-08T03:19:19Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-08T03:19:22Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-08T03:20:00Z ryu0: maybe i'm mistaken but this is what i thought... 2015-11-08T03:21:02Z Bike: iso c90 is almost identical to ansi c89, says wikipedia. 2015-11-08T03:21:21Z Bike: ok, this is pretty funny actually. 2015-11-08T03:21:55Z Bike: iso c95 is an extension to ansi c89, and then ansi c99 is an iso standard? 2015-11-08T03:22:14Z ryu0: i thought ANSI C was only for the c89 standard. 2015-11-08T03:22:31Z GGMethos quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-11-08T03:23:08Z ryu0: In March 2000, ANSI adopted the ISO/IEC 9899:1999 standard. 2015-11-08T03:23:17Z ryu0: so it appears ISO took over after that. 2015-11-08T03:24:00Z Whymind quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T03:24:19Z ryu0: Bike: any idea if this ISO ISLISP has any relevance? it seems to be somewhat like the failed ISO Pascal standard. were there any real implementations of it? 2015-11-08T03:24:22Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-08T03:24:22Z ryu0 ponders. 2015-11-08T03:24:56Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:25:00Z Bike: the only thing i consistently remember about islisp is that CL has lambda forms because of it. 2015-11-08T03:25:15Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-08T03:25:38Z ryu0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenLisp 2015-11-08T03:25:49Z ryu0: "License: Proprietary license" 2015-11-08T03:26:03Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:26:05Z ryu0: the irony. called open lisp but has a restrictive license. XD 2015-11-08T03:27:00Z ryu0: oh, "open system" 2015-11-08T03:27:02Z ryu0 facepalms. 2015-11-08T03:27:39Z Bike: words betray 2015-11-08T03:29:56Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:33:06Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T03:36:55Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:39:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T03:42:18Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-08T03:43:53Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:44:10Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:44:12Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T03:46:18Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:53:07Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-08T03:53:27Z Big_G quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T03:57:30Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T04:02:16Z Whymind quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T04:04:56Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:05:58Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:06:51Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:08:05Z resttime: I went on to try optimizing the plist-values solutions for fun and have concluded that the macro DO is like really really fast. 2015-11-08T04:08:35Z resttime: And smarter than me, because I tried optimizing the TAGBODY macroexpansion and that made it turn out a little slower :( 2015-11-08T04:09:23Z resttime: Though fun fact is that the tail call optimization has the smallest size at 104 bytes 2015-11-08T04:09:35Z resttime: Even though it's a tad bit slower that DO and TAGBODY 2015-11-08T04:09:45Z resttime: which were both at 116 bytes 2015-11-08T04:10:18Z resttime: Err TAGBODY being my clueless attempt at doing stuff to the DO macroexpansion. 2015-11-08T04:10:55Z resttime: Did not bother trying with LOOP 2015-11-08T04:11:23Z defaultxr quit (Quit: ggnight) 2015-11-08T04:18:19Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:19:34Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T04:20:12Z rhg135 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:20:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:24:39Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:24:58Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:26:12Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:27:45Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:28:34Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:30:11Z Zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-08T04:31:07Z yvm: I want libdrm for CL. 2015-11-08T04:32:47Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:35:42Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:37:13Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T04:37:36Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:43:31Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:48:24Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T04:49:56Z broken_clock quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-08T04:52:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T04:54:47Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:54:48Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:57:54Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-08T04:58:40Z guicho: minion: any update? 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2015-11-08T10:59:28Z [6502]: on a = on 2015-11-08T11:02:19Z bibby joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:02:48Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-08T11:02:48Z [6502]: how to deal with special cases like (dotimes (foo 10) ...) where `foo` should not be highlighted as a function name but as a local binding name? 2015-11-08T11:02:49Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T11:03:47Z Xof: The best one I know of was written by Troels Henriksen, if I recall correctly, for the climacs text editor 2015-11-08T11:03:54Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:04:04Z Xof: it performed a full parse of the buffer with error recovery 2015-11-08T11:04:30Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T11:04:48Z Xof: along similar lines, gilbert baumann once wrote a thing which displayed nested levels of backquotes in different colours 2015-11-08T11:05:03Z Xof: to do syntax highlighting properly, you need to parse 2015-11-08T11:08:21Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:09:14Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-08T11:11:34Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-08T11:11:54Z muyinliu: anyone knows about cl-gambol? 2015-11-08T11:11:58Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:12:40Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T11:13:01Z pjb: muyinliu: google tells me it's a basic prolog. 2015-11-08T11:18:33Z [6502]: Xof: just thought that may be a full-parser restarting from last top-level sexpr by first dropping whatever was deduced after that point is a decent compromise 2015-11-08T11:21:21Z [6502]: Xof: using some dependency on self-documentation for macros (i.e. if a parameter is to be considered code or not) 2015-11-08T11:22:04Z [6502]: Xof: doing macro-expansion just for syntax highlighting seems too much 2015-11-08T11:22:47Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:23:36Z pjb: [6502]: how else would you know what a given macro uses its parameters for? 2015-11-08T11:24:02Z pjb: [6502]: you can infer the role of symbols, only with respect to special operators and functions. 2015-11-08T11:24:37Z [6502]: pjb: I was thinking to use a naming convention... 2015-11-08T11:24:42Z pjb: (let (( )…) ) (locally …) (the ) etc. 2015-11-08T11:25:02Z pjb: [6502]: what's the point of doing an half assed job? Emacs already does it well enough. 2015-11-08T11:27:15Z [6502]: pjb: (let ((let 14)) let) 2015-11-08T11:27:16Z pjb: [6502]: now, where you will have a problem, is when you have a macro implementing a convention. For example: (defmacro convention (sym) `(the ,sym ,sym)) (concatenate 'string (convention string) "!") <-- how do you colorize the second string? 2015-11-08T11:27:29Z [6502]: pjb: my emacs highlights the second `let` wrong 2015-11-08T11:27:57Z pjb: [6502]: this let is easy, since it's a special operator, it's known to your interpreter, and you know to colorize the first let as a special operator, the second as a new variable being bound, and the third let as a variable being evaluated in an expression. 2015-11-08T11:28:08Z Lord_of_- quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-08T11:28:28Z pjb: But what about (convention string)? Is string a type or a variable? (It's both!) 2015-11-08T11:28:59Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:29:02Z pjb: Notice that doing the macroexpansion, you will know that it's both and you can do something about it. (eg. with underlines for secondary uses). 2015-11-08T11:29:29Z muyinliu: I want to write some code with cl-gambol to solve the zebra problem, but didn't get it right. My code is here: http://paste.lisp.org/+3EJC 2015-11-08T11:30:24Z [6502]: pjb: doing macroexpansion requires compilation too (a macro can call a function) no? 2015-11-08T11:31:08Z BWV988 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:31:59Z pjb: muyinliu: (= ?h ((house norwegian ?? ?? ?? ??) ?? (house ?? ?? ?? milk ??) ?? ??)) ; looks strange. (I don't know anything about gambol, but this is strange). 2015-11-08T11:33:00Z muyinliu: pjb: yes, the code is mostly came from Allegro Prolog's example, here: http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/prolog.html 2015-11-08T11:34:33Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:34:58Z muyinliu: I just don't know how to convert `H = [house(norwegian, _, _, _, _), _, house(_, _, _, milk, _), _, _],` to cl-gambol way... 2015-11-08T11:36:49Z lpaste_: muyinliu pasted “zebra.prolog.lisp” at http://lpaste.net/144874 2015-11-08T11:37:06Z muyinliu: sorry... just a test. 2015-11-08T11:37:20Z wtbrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T11:39:19Z BWV988 left #lisp 2015-11-08T11:42:45Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:43:12Z pjb: muyinliu: there are only two occurences of member in the sources of gambol, and none seem to be to define any prolog member operator. 2015-11-08T11:43:19Z pjb: muyinliu: I think you'll have to define it. 2015-11-08T11:43:39Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:43:46Z pjb: Notice how in tests.lisp, there's a prolog definition of member. 2015-11-08T11:43:52Z pjb: You have to provide a similar one. 2015-11-08T11:44:23Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks, I'll try 2015-11-08T11:46:32Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:49:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:53:07Z muyinliu: pjb: add member operator code(from tests.lisp), but still can't get it right. cl-gambol didn't give an example about how to write code like `H = [house(norwegian, _, _, _, _), _, house(_, _, _, milk, _), _, _]` in prolog, any suggestion? 2015-11-08T11:54:46Z pjb: Well, obviously it looks like it represents things like (house ?w ?? ?? water ??) as lisp vectors, so when you build a literal list, you must either make it a literal list of those vectors (if this is accepted by gambol), or else, you have to build a list of list, and provide the gambol code to interpret it correctly. 2015-11-08T11:55:09Z pjb: It's very primitive. It seems to me that PAIP prolog is even more advanced than gambol. 2015-11-08T11:55:29Z psYbR joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:56:04Z psYbR: hey guyth. I wath wondering if you could help me out. I'm thtruggling with my lithp 2015-11-08T11:56:54Z psYbR left #lisp 2015-11-08T11:56:54Z arnsholt: psYbR: Have you tried supplementing it with a limp? 2015-11-08T11:57:00Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-08T11:59:09Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-08T11:59:10Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T11:59:44Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:01:34Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:03:54Z CEnnis91 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T12:07:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:07:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-08T12:07:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:10:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T12:11:01Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T12:11:16Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:13:59Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T12:14:39Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:14:54Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-08T12:16:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:24:52Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:25:23Z blubjr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T12:29:03Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T12:30:08Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:31:06Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-08T12:32:25Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:33:36Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:35:22Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T12:37:19Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T12:37:19Z p_l ponders if he could make Power8 run Common Lisp in the startup code 2015-11-08T12:37:23Z p_l: ECL might actually work 2015-11-08T12:38:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T12:39:11Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T12:39:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:41:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:43:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T12:45:01Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T12:45:02Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:45:31Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T12:47:03Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-08T12:52:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-08T12:53:14Z Ven__ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T13:01:27Z loke_: p_l: what is Power8 startup code? 2015-11-08T13:05:10Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:20:27Z sulky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T13:20:56Z p_l: loke_: essentially the code that powers up the cpu 2015-11-08T13:21:01Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:21:08Z p_l: before your bootloader ever sees the light of the day 2015-11-08T13:21:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:21:28Z p_l: (or before the memory starts, too) 2015-11-08T13:22:05Z p_l: I counted four operating systems involved by the time Power8 chips have the memory initialized and before PCI is started up 2015-11-08T13:22:47Z loke_: p_l: which ones? 2015-11-08T13:22:59Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T13:23:50Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:26:30Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T13:27:07Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-08T13:27:17Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:28:21Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 252 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up OCC (which handles sensors and most of power management), which is a PPC405 that also runs a microkernel based OS 2015-11-08T13:46:35Z p_l: then hostboot loads OPAL which is also a microkernel based OS and leaves it to run, making it start initializing the rest of the hw and bring bootloader up 2015-11-08T13:46:56Z p_l: ... hostboot has libC++ and STL 2015-11-08T13:47:01Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T13:47:10Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T13:47:17Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:47:22Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:47:50Z [6502] quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-08T13:49:06Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:56:28Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-08T13:58:22Z loke_: p_l: OK, wow 2015-11-08T13:59:10Z loke_: p_l: I worked for Sun back in the olden days, and got quite depp understanding of the most complex architecture they had at the time (the E10k), but not even that one was anything close to what you just explained. 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users in CL, but without „who”. 2015-11-08T15:44:49Z otwieracz: (and produce result just like $ who -s) 2015-11-08T15:44:51Z pjb: Why would you want to do that? 2015-11-08T15:45:02Z otwieracz: Because I have to :) 2015-11-08T15:45:12Z pjb: You can't type /who #lisp ? 2015-11-08T15:45:14Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T15:45:38Z pjb: otwieracz: just wait for some time, and look at the join/leave/quit messages. 2015-11-08T15:45:43Z otwieracz: Sorry, I was thinking about it for some time and this was obvious to me. 2015-11-08T15:45:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:45:51Z otwieracz: I mean: *list of logged Linux users* :) 2015-11-08T15:46:00Z pjb: Oh. 2015-11-08T15:46:02Z pjb: who(1). 2015-11-08T15:46:09Z otwieracz: Without who. 2015-11-08T15:46:20Z pjb: you read a file in /var. 2015-11-08T15:46:28Z otwieracz: I am not brave enough. 2015-11-08T15:46:32Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:46:35Z pjb: /var/run/utmp IIRC. 2015-11-08T15:46:37Z otwieracz: (to be honest – I am trying right now, but this is terrible) 2015-11-08T15:46:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:47:23Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158845 – that's in perl. 2015-11-08T15:47:50Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T15:48:12Z pjb: well if I were you, I'd use the C sources of who(1) to find the file format. It will probably easier to translate the struct into lisp than to parse this perl. 2015-11-08T15:49:10Z pjb: otwieracz: you can also cheat: strings /var/run/utmp 2015-11-08T15:49:25Z pjb: doing something like strings(1) in lisp should be easy enough :-) 2015-11-08T15:49:40Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:49:55Z pjb: Yeah, perhaps not. 2015-11-08T15:51:00Z otwieracz: strings is even losing some data. 2015-11-08T15:52:16Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T15:52:28Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:52:52Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T15:53:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-08T15:55:13Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T15:56:03Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-08T15:57:01Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T15:58:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:00:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T16:00:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:04:41Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-08T16:08:57Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-08T16:09:29Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:10:52Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:13:00Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:15:35Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T16:16:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:18:24Z lisp493 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:22:35Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-08T16:39:39Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-08T16:48:00Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T16:57:06Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T16:57:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T16:59:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:00:26Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:02:29Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:04:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T17:07:02Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-08T17:07:15Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:07:34Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:07:49Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-08T17:10:04Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:14:44Z DeadTrickster: (sb-thread:join-thread sb-thread:*current-thread*) -> SIMPLE-ERROR recursive lock attempt. This is among the best cryptic error I've ever seen. Only c++ templates can beat this 2015-11-08T17:16:08Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:16:18Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:18:05Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:20:41Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-08T17:21:37Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:22:18Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:22:36Z Bike: joining the current thread is obviously wrong, though 2015-11-08T17:25:33Z lisp493 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:26:33Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: would something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/158847 suffice? 2015-11-08T17:28:22Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:31:36Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-08T17:33:25Z DeadTrickster: Bike, of course but you'll never know when you make a mistake 2015-11-08T17:33:28Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, testing 2015-11-08T17:34:43Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:35:16Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: i'm pretty sure it works. i'm mainly asking whether the error report is clear 2015-11-08T17:35:38Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, Yeah I wanna get the feeling ;_) 2015-11-08T17:36:56Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:37:03Z vaporatorius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T17:37:29Z Bike: yeah, guess you're right, sorry 2015-11-08T17:37:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T17:38:40Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, feels good 2015-11-08T17:38:48Z DeadTrickster: hope that will be applied soon 2015-11-08T17:39:18Z DeadTrickster: I just spent like 30 minutes grep'ing all my mutexes ) 2015-11-08T17:39:35Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:40:20Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T17:40:29Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:40:47Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:41:01Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T17:41:15Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:41:50Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: i will add a test, write a NEWS entry, ask for a review and then hopefully push. but this is probably better suited for #sbcl 2015-11-08T17:42:14Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:42:21Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, they are discussing crazy things here didn't want to intervene 2015-11-08T17:43:09Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, also maybe error type not that good since join-thread-error is about return values 2015-11-08T17:43:23Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, also type: signal a JOIN-THREAD-THREAD-ERROR with problem equa 2015-11-08T17:43:29Z DeadTrickster: typo 2015-11-08T17:45:46Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:46:47Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:50:50Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:51:01Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:51:34Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:54:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:55:06Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-08T17:59:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T17:59:15Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T18:00:52Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-08T18:03:21Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T18:06:00Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-08T18:06:55Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-08T18:07:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-08T18:08:18Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-08T18:09:08Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-08T18:10:33Z RazWelle1: o.o 2015-11-08T18:11:57Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-08T18:12:16Z RazWelles quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-08T18:12:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-08T18:12:25Z RazWelle1 is now known as RazWelles 2015-11-08T18:14:55Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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But still. And I'm not sure if there's much in the way of inexpensive stuff for other archs. Maybe if you buy some used equipment off ebay or something 2015-11-08T22:53:53Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-08T22:56:50Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-08T22:57:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ueaj, some older Sparcs (T1s) aren't too expensive on ebay, but I was curious about p_l's reference to "cheap" power8 hardware :) 2015-11-08T22:58:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-08T22:59:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/Ueaj/Yeah/ 2015-11-08T22:59:15Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-08T23:03:21Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:05:12Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-08T23:05:27Z p_l: fiddlerwoaroof: there are developement-oriented boards from Tyan 2015-11-08T23:06:06Z p_l: Wouldn't buy them for server use unless I had budget to replace the BMC firmware, but good enough to run in home/lab 2015-11-08T23:06:07Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-08T23:08:33Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:08:45Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:12:32Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:14:23Z p_l: (the tyan motherboards have petitboot, which is a linux kernel that uses kexec() to boot other linux kernels) 2015-11-08T23:14:48Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-08T23:15:22Z varjag: Xach: have a pull request for you in sharplispers 2015-11-08T23:15:49Z varjag: you can discard the older one 2015-11-08T23:15:54Z varjag: for cl-jpeg 2015-11-08T23:16:46Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:18:09Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-08T23:18:18Z le4fy: is there a way to prevent a space from being printed before a comma escaped variable in a macro? 2015-11-08T23:18:22Z le4fy: I'd like to have the expression `(set-,pdir x y) expand to (set-right x y) 2015-11-08T23:18:24Z le4fy: currently it's expanding to (set- right x y) 2015-11-08T23:19:08Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:22:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: le4fy: I would do something like (make-symbol (format nil "set-~a" (symbol-name old-symbol))) 2015-11-08T23:22:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think the function you want is INTERN ? 2015-11-08T23:22:37Z mood: le4fy: Macros don't work on strings, so there is no space there. set-,pdir is just the symbol SET- and something that evaluates to the value of PDIR. What you want is something like `(,(intern (format nil "SET-~A" pdir)) x y) 2015-11-08T23:22:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (intern (format . . .) *package*) 2015-11-08T23:22:42Z nyef: And I'd've used INTERN, and not bothered invoking SYMBOL-NAME directly. 2015-11-08T23:22:47Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:23:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: I forgot that symbols are treated like strings... 2015-11-08T23:23:08Z nyef: Isn't the package argument to intern optional, defaulting to *package*? 2015-11-08T23:23:12Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:23:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know that either. 2015-11-08T23:23:44Z mood: nyef: Yes 2015-11-08T23:24:20Z le4fy: ok, thanks guys! now that you mention INTERN i have a feeling that's what I'm looking for... 2015-11-08T23:26:16Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:27:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that's cool. For some reason I assumed that INTERN would default to the lexically enclosing package and not the dynamic one 2015-11-08T23:28:13Z mood: There is no lexically enclosing package? 2015-11-08T23:29:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean the package of the function it's caller belongs to 2015-11-08T23:29:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh. 2015-11-08T23:29:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The package of the macro, not the package of the macro's caller. 2015-11-08T23:30:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:31:30Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-08T23:32:27Z mood: fiddlerwoaroof: A function/macro also doesn't have a package. The macro is expanded in whatever package is *package* at macroexpansion time, not at macro definition time. 2015-11-08T23:33:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, mostly I just wasn't thinking things through :) 2015-11-08T23:33:54Z mood: :) 2015-11-08T23:35:36Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-08T23:36:39Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-08T23:37:00Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-09T02:06:22Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-09T02:06:34Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: have you heard about cliki.net? 2015-11-09T02:06:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Forgot to look there :) 2015-11-09T02:15:44Z owlbird joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:20:33Z owlbird left #lisp 2015-11-09T02:22:04Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T02:24:25Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:26:50Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T02:27:26Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T02:27:31Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-09T02:33:26Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T02:35:30Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:36:56Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-09T02:38:13Z Robdgreat quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T02:38:13Z Robdgreat joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:39:13Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T02:41:59Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T02:44:54Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:45:04Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:45:58Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:50:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:51:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T02:56:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T03:05:52Z newdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T03:09:33Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T03:09:46Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:13:53Z halfcrazy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T03:14:10Z xyh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.38/20151005122910]) 2015-11-09T03:14:29Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:14:30Z halfcrazy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T03:14:49Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:15:01Z phf: anybody know if there's any leftover code from cmucl arm port attempts? i know there's been a few 2015-11-09T03:23:48Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:24:09Z nyef: phf: I still have all of the code from both SBCL ARM port attempts, if that helps. 2015-11-09T03:27:47Z phf: nyef: i thought sbcl arm ports are in the trunk? i was going to plunder them for vops 2015-11-09T03:28:09Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T03:28:47Z nyef: Yes, one of them was a successful attempt. 2015-11-09T03:29:18Z phf: ah, i see. in that case, yes definitely the other one would be handy 2015-11-09T03:29:47Z nyef: I'm not sure how handy it would be, given its state. Why are you looking for such things? 2015-11-09T03:30:21Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T03:31:28Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:32:16Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:33:46Z phf: i've been studying cmucl internals, and i'm at point where i think i can attempt a port. i think it's a reasonable 6 month project. 2015-11-09T03:35:54Z nyef: Interesting. Porting the compiler ensures that you get very familiar with how many of the pieces work. 2015-11-09T03:36:11Z nyef: minion: arm-port-log? 2015-11-09T03:36:11Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``arm-port-log''. 2015-11-09T03:36:13Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-11-09T03:37:25Z nyef: http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt and http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/arm-port-log-2.txt might make interesting reading if you haven't seen them before. 2015-11-09T03:38:53Z phf: oh yeah, i remember reading those long time ago when i was browsing your site for lisp os details. thanks, i'll go through them again 2015-11-09T03:39:29Z nyef: ARM is right on the edge of having too few registers to partition the register set the way that Python likes. You might consider using the x86 style gencgc allocator instead of cheneygc, gengc, or whatever (is there a fourth GC in cmucl? I forget). 2015-11-09T03:40:28Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T03:41:32Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:41:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-09T03:41:59Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-11-09T03:44:41Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-09T03:45:34Z beach: What did I miss? 2015-11-09T03:46:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T03:48:07Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:51:27Z nyef: I don't know. I've been a bit scattered today. 2015-11-09T03:53:21Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:56:02Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:56:32Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-09T03:56:58Z beach: I see in the logs a discussion on syntax highlighting for Common Lisp. The incremental parser I wrote for Climacs was based on an incremental LR parsing algorithm, so it could not be adapted to new reader macros and such. 2015-11-09T03:57:00Z beach: I am hoping that for Second Climacs, I can get away with using a special version of READ, using the ordinary readtable. 2015-11-09T03:58:47Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: there are a lot of fairly affordable freescale dev boards; I think they are mostly 32-bit though 2015-11-09T04:00:39Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:00:40Z nyef: beach: I'm reminded of some of the interplay involved in CLIM input editing, particularly the parsing aspect and its interaction with presentation types. 2015-11-09T04:01:23Z nyef: ... But I don't have time, energy, or brain power right now to recall the details. 2015-11-09T04:01:31Z beach: Yes, it is complicated as I recall. 2015-11-09T04:02:03Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T04:02:29Z beach: Complete Common Lisp objects are inserted into the read buffer, but when the representation is modified, it is unparsed. At least that is what I remember. 2015-11-09T04:03:35Z beach: SLIME does something similar, actually. 2015-11-09T04:03:45Z beach: ... for presentations. 2015-11-09T04:04:38Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:06:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:06:46Z blubjr joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:06:46Z nyef: Mmm. Okay, it's less than an hour until midnight here, and my energy levels are crashing. I'll talk to you later, possibly about parsing, presentations, and angry fruit salad^W^W^Wsyntax highlighting. 2015-11-09T04:07:08Z beach: Sure. Sleep well. 2015-11-09T04:09:46Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:19:12Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:23:14Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-09T04:23:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:24:09Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:24:26Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:25:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:28:20Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-09T04:30:52Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:34:58Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:35:01Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:36:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:36:34Z pillton: beach: How is fixing the world going? 2015-11-09T04:36:56Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T04:37:11Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:38:25Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:39:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:40:34Z beach: Too slow for my taste. But progress is being made. :) 2015-11-09T04:40:55Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T04:41:23Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:45:36Z beach: I am thinking I should stick a CLIM II user interface onto Second Climacs. Currently, I am stuck with Second Climacs because I haven't decided on how to do the presentation type stuff, and so input is not working. 2015-11-09T04:45:37Z beach: But it is working in McCLIM, so I could still have Second Climacs (which is way more sophisticated than Climacs). Furthermore, interested people could work on other aspects of Second Climacs sooner. 2015-11-09T04:50:37Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T04:50:43Z beach: Ultimately, I intend to use CLIM3/CLIMatis for the user interface of Second Climacs. And that's where presentation types are not yet working. 2015-11-09T04:53:08Z pillton: Ah. The GUI and/or editor conundrum. 2015-11-09T04:53:14Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T04:53:49Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:53:50Z beach: How do you characterize that particular conundrum? 2015-11-09T04:54:00Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T04:55:37Z pillton: What is something that everybody uses and rarely expends effort improving? 2015-11-09T04:56:03Z beach: I think I understand, yes. 2015-11-09T04:56:15Z pillton: It is one very deep local minima. 2015-11-09T04:56:41Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T04:57:01Z beach: It is fun to work on though. The incremental buffer update protocol is something I am very happy with in Second Climacs. 2015-11-09T04:57:51Z beach: ... and of course the buffer representation itself. 2015-11-09T04:58:40Z pillton: I've almost bought the book going through the design of Emacs a few times. 2015-11-09T04:59:14Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T04:59:29Z beach: It was quite good at the time. I am pretty sure things have change to justify a different design now. 2015-11-09T05:00:39Z beach: Emacs and Climacs both use a simple gap buffer for the entire editor buffer. For Second Climacs I use a balanced tree of lines. 2015-11-09T05:01:06Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:01:09Z beach: Though, I haven't looked at how Emacs might have evolved from the initial design, so perhaps I am wrong about how it works these days. 2015-11-09T05:01:23Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:02:35Z beach: So with Second Climacs, it is easier to attach information to each line. For example the state of an incremental parser. 2015-11-09T05:04:21Z beach: Also, different lines could have different representations in Second Climacs. A line with just ASCII characters not currently being worked on could have a very compact representation, while other lines could contain arbitrary Common Lisp objects. 2015-11-09T05:04:51Z kristof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-09T05:05:27Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:05:34Z pillton: Interesting. 2015-11-09T05:06:22Z phf: nyef: thanks for the tip, i figured that the default is to follow limited number of registers strategy, from reading x86 notes and also following the ccl arm port progress. fyi cmucl has gengc, gencgc, chenny's one and cgc 2015-11-09T05:06:47Z Raimondii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:07:26Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:08:34Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T05:10:47Z beach: phf: Or, you could use Cleavir as the basis of a new compiler. I have a partial database of ARM instructions that could be used by a compiler backend. 2015-11-09T05:11:29Z beach: phf: I am half joking. It would be a different kind of project. 2015-11-09T05:11:40Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:13:39Z Raimondii is now known as Raimondi 2015-11-09T05:14:18Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:15:02Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T05:15:44Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-09T05:17:07Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:18:17Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:23:24Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:24:19Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:31:05Z madalu joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:31:44Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:32:55Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-09T05:33:44Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:33:51Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:37:30Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T05:42:42Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:44:48Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-09T05:45:13Z PuercoPop: Where is the part where ,@ (splice) is described in the clhs? 2015-11-09T05:46:10Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2015-11-09T05:46:51Z PuercoPop: White_Flame: thanks! 2015-11-09T05:48:21Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2015-11-09T05:48:50Z drmeister: I've been using cclasp for several days now - it's been satisfyingly stable. 2015-11-09T05:49:49Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:49:50Z drmeister: No crashes. 2015-11-09T05:51:38Z drmeister: Well, none that I can't attribute to something else. 2015-11-09T05:53:35Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-09T05:53:48Z shortCircuit___ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:54:15Z shortCircuit___ is now known as aceRacer 2015-11-09T05:55:07Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:55:41Z PuercoPop: first time I seen the clhs use a word in scare quotes instead of linking to a glossary entry. (splice) 2015-11-09T05:55:46Z aceRacer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T05:57:01Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:57:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:57:23Z White_Flame: and the pre-unicode ``made of single quotes'' is kinda quaint 2015-11-09T05:59:12Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-09T05:59:39Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T06:01:15Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T06:03:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:15:16Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:16:35Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:21:42Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T06:28:22Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:36:21Z dead_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:39:52Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-11-09T06:40:04Z nell: http://imgur.com/m6H5BlX 2015-11-09T06:40:09Z nell: err wrong channel 2015-11-09T06:43:19Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-09T06:45:32Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks. the code from PAIP works fine! 2015-11-09T06:46:14Z madalu quit 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T10:37:50Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:38:35Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-09T10:39:24Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:41:42Z raphaelsss joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:43:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T10:43:58Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T10:49:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T10:52:08Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:52:08Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T10:52:08Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:54:22Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:57:24Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-09T10:57:28Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T10:57:31Z SAL9000: Any Antiweb4 users here? The FAQ seems to imply that there's no suitable Lisp implementation, what with the "issues in X" section exposing what looks like show-stopping bugs in each common implementation. Which implementation is recommended, if any? 2015-11-09T10:59:02Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:00:15Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T11:00:27Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:00:51Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T11:06:18Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:08:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:11:56Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T11:13:11Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:14:43Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:14:51Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T11:15:57Z raeon joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:21:00Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T11:23:20Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:23:33Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:28:37Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:28:51Z raphaelssss joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:29:14Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-09T11:31:22Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:32:20Z raphaelsss quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:33:18Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:35:31Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-09T11:36:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:37:30Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:38:09Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:38:54Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:40:04Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:42:06Z pyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-09T11:44:21Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:44:25Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:45:14Z XachX: SAL9000: what is antiweb4? 2015-11-09T11:45:30Z SAL9000: XachX: https://github.com/hoytech/antiweb http://web.archive.org/web/20150212014713/http://hoytech.com/antiweb/manual.awp/index.html 2015-11-09T11:46:43Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:46:50Z XachX: SAL9000: ok. What is the issues in X document? 2015-11-09T11:47:07Z SAL9000: http://web.archive.org/web/20150212013900/http://hoytech.com/antiweb/manual.awp/faq.html#CMUCL-LIMITATIONS 2015-11-09T11:47:49Z jackdaniel: either ECL doesn't have bugs and limitations or it isn't worth mentioning :D 2015-11-09T11:48:36Z SAL9000: Having used SBCL for other things, I suspect that "SBCL thread support has severe issues. Antiweb doesn't use threads but be very careful if you incorporate threaded libraries." is outdated information. Not sure about the rest, though. 2015-11-09T11:48:36Z jackdaniel picks the first interpretation 2015-11-09T11:48:41Z SAL9000: :-) 2015-11-09T11:50:27Z jackdaniel: aua, my eyes hurt! http://hcsw.org/blog.pl :) 2015-11-09T11:51:33Z antoszka: o lol 2015-11-09T11:52:10Z antoszka: Is this *the* Doug Hoyte? 2015-11-09T11:52:37Z jackdaniel: idk, this very intensive colours made me close the window 2015-11-09T11:52:44Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:53:00Z SAL9000: [insert obligatory mirc color code abuse here] 2015-11-09T11:53:05Z Shinmera: SAL9000: I'd be interested in knowing why you're interested in using it. 2015-11-09T11:53:18Z SAL9000: Shinmera: "it" being antiweb? 2015-11-09T11:53:21Z Shinmera: Yes 2015-11-09T11:53:46Z Shinmera: The name rings familiar somehow but I've never seen anyone talk about it before. 2015-11-09T11:54:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:54:38Z SAL9000: I'm planning on writing a support forum/CMS thing for a nonprofit 2015-11-09T11:54:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:54:47Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-09T11:54:58Z SAL9000: they asked for PHP, I'm trying to make the case for something decent :-) 2015-11-09T11:55:22Z Shinmera: Have you already looked at the usual recommendations of Clack/things based on it/weblocks/all the other CL things? 2015-11-09T11:55:52Z SAL9000: I've looked at weblocks. Seems to be theoretically awesome but practically abandonware 2015-11-09T11:56:10Z SAL9000: and overloaded with obscure magic on top of that 2015-11-09T11:56:34Z Shinmera notes that this is about the 20th time this year that he feels really bad about not having finished the Radiance spec yet. 2015-11-09T11:56:34Z SAL9000: OTOH, I love the idea of gracefully failing over from AJAX-widgets to HTTP. 2015-11-09T11:57:10Z SAL9000: I should clarify, I mean failing over onto "conventional" widgets with actual links rather than javascript wizardry. 2015-11-09T11:57:40Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-09T11:58:01Z jackdaniel: SAL9000: doesn't weblocks do that? 2015-11-09T11:58:06Z jackdaniel: oh, you've mentioned weblocks 2015-11-09T11:58:07Z jackdaniel: sorry :p 2015-11-09T11:58:13Z Shinmera: I can't personally recommend the popular choices like Caveman2 nowadays as I haven't tried them, but that's what people seem to be going for. 2015-11-09T11:58:19Z Shinmera: As in, something based on Clack. 2015-11-09T11:58:27Z SAL9000: ,clack 2015-11-09T11:58:33Z jackdaniel: ,g clack 2015-11-09T11:58:55Z SAL9000: oh right, fsbot is an #emacs thing 2015-11-09T11:58:57Z SAL9000: silly me 2015-11-09T11:59:06Z Shinmera: https://github.com/fukamachi/clack 2015-11-09T11:59:45Z kp666_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T12:00:00Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:00:46Z Shinmera: Hrm. I'm just now noticing that Fukamachi took over my line of "Web Application Environment" that I used for Radiance. 2015-11-09T12:00:56Z Shinmera: Sneaky. 2015-11-09T12:01:39Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with i2c: using i2c-tools from a normal user I can read/write the device registers, using a common lisp program calling ioctl gave me error 22 or 95... 2015-11-09T12:02:19Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:03:23Z Carisius joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:03:57Z RainBowww joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:04:44Z SAL9000: Shinmera: Which persistence/db-access libraries/frameworks would you recommend for web apps? 2015-11-09T12:06:52Z Shinmera: SAL9000: If you want a database, use postgresql and postmodern. 2015-11-09T12:07:18Z Shinmera: For object store I don't know what to suggest. 2015-11-09T12:07:32Z SAL9000: However, I'm not sure if I want a database. I do want to do DB-like things, but I don't know if that's the "lispy" way to do them. 2015-11-09T12:07:55Z SAL9000: oh and I'll need full-text-search. 2015-11-09T12:07:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:08:46Z Shinmera: There are no pure-lisp databases that can rival the extent and speed of postgresql that I know of. 2015-11-09T12:09:00Z pjb: Posterdati: what are the error codes 22 or 95? 2015-11-09T12:09:05Z pjb: (Check the headers). 2015-11-09T12:09:17Z Shinmera: Maybe Franz' AllegroCache, but I have no idea how good that actually is. 2015-11-09T12:09:48Z Posterdati: pjb: 95 is operation not possible 2015-11-09T12:09:57Z SAL9000: Makes sense. Do you think it's useful to split session data and persistent data, with the former in an object store? 2015-11-09T12:10:08Z Posterdati: pjb: 22 is wrong parameter 2015-11-09T12:10:32Z Shinmera: SAL9000: For Radiance I just keep session data in a lisp object and don't bother storing it on the disk anywhere. 2015-11-09T12:10:36Z pjb: So there. You're passing a bad parameter. 2015-11-09T12:10:36Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:10:36Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:10:40Z Shinmera: Depending on your requirements offloading may or may not be appropriate. 2015-11-09T12:11:41Z Shinmera: SAL9000: In my case session data is usually very minimal, so losing it is not a big deal. 2015-11-09T12:11:58Z SAL9000: Session data will probably be limited to login cookies and the like. 2015-11-09T12:12:32Z SAL9000: I guess it boils down to how many "nines" the 'client' wants. 2015-11-09T12:12:47Z SAL9000: (nines i.e. 90%, 99%, 99.9% etc.) 2015-11-09T12:12:52Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:12:59Z muyinliu: pjb: are you there? 2015-11-09T12:13:15Z Posterdati: pjb: # 2015-11-09T12:13:46Z Posterdati: pjb: writing toward the /dev/i2c-0 return this 2015-11-09T12:14:16Z Posterdati: pjb: crw-rw---- 1 root i2c 89, 0 Nov 9 08:09 /dev/i2c-0 2015-11-09T12:14:33Z Posterdati: and the lisp user is in i2c group too 2015-11-09T12:17:03Z kp666_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T12:17:12Z Posterdati: :( 2015-11-09T12:17:21Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T12:17:29Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:18:16Z pocket quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-09T12:18:40Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:18:59Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:19:44Z Zer0_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:20:09Z ferada: Posterdati: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5195991/writeing-to-i2c-device-operation-not-permitted does that describe your problem? 2015-11-09T12:20:31Z kp666_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T12:20:38Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T12:21:30Z Zer0_ left #lisp 2015-11-09T12:21:46Z Posterdati: ferada: I can user i2ctools to read and write the device 2015-11-09T12:22:23Z Posterdati: I straced i2cset and i2cget and I perform the same values in open and ioctl 2015-11-09T12:22:40Z leafyba__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T12:23:02Z muyinliu: pjb: Hi, PAIP is very slow, any suggestion? (The benchmark of AllegroCL Prolog solve the Zebra Puzzle 1000 times only takes 1.750s; SBCL + cl-paip solve 10 times takes 5.500s, it's really very slow; Note: gprolog solve 1000 times only takes 1.222s.) 2015-11-09T12:23:12Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:26:30Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:29:05Z pjb: muyinliu: use swi-prolog. 2015-11-09T12:30:22Z jdz: muyinliu: have you tried (or are you using) paiprolog? 2015-11-09T12:30:30Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T12:33:34Z RainBowww left #lisp 2015-11-09T12:36:38Z muyinliu: pjb: is swi-prolog support an eval server? 2015-11-09T12:38:48Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-09T12:39:01Z muyinliu: jdz: Yes, I'm using PAIProlog from the book Paradigms of AI Programming 2015-11-09T12:39:39Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:40:42Z pjb: muyinliu: http://www.swi-prolog.org/ 2015-11-09T12:40:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:40:57Z Nikotiin` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T12:41:00Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T12:41:11Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-09T12:42:02Z muyinliu: pjb, Yeah, I know the home page of swi-prolog. I have swi-prolog installed with brew. 2015-11-09T12:42:10Z jdz: muyinliu: i meant https://github.com/quek/paiprolog/ 2015-11-09T12:42:49Z pjb: I have use swi-prolog interactively. I don't know if it has a server. 2015-11-09T12:42:53Z kp666_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T12:42:54Z pjb: You can probably write one. 2015-11-09T12:43:15Z muyinliu: jdz: OK, I'll try this one. 2015-11-09T12:43:39Z jdz: there's a paiprolog in QuickLisp 2015-11-09T12:43:46Z jdz: most probably the one i linked 2015-11-09T12:44:33Z muyinliu: jdz: trying... 2015-11-09T12:45:12Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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answer is found with paiprolog? The example of AllegroCL Prolog is here: http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/prolog.html and I paste the main code here: http://paste.lisp.org/+3ELW 2015-11-09T14:32:24Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T14:32:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:33:06Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:33:46Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:34:55Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:38:40Z jdz: muyinliu: i have no idea -- i have not paiprolog 2015-11-09T14:38:49Z jdz: have not used, i mean 2015-11-09T14:39:18Z jdz: wasn't there something about cuts in Prolog? 2015-11-09T14:40:00Z jdz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_(logic_programming) 2015-11-09T14:40:24Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:40:51Z muyinliu: jdz: Thank you all the same. I eval the AllegroCL Prolog's example and didn't get any error. paiprolog might already support the cuts. 2015-11-09T14:42:11Z muyinliu: jdz: As the comment in line 47(http://paste.lisp.org/+3ELW) says "Stop once answer is found. " 2015-11-09T14:42:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:42:39Z jdz: that looks like a cut allright 2015-11-09T14:43:05Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:44:27Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:44:44Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T14:45:35Z jdz: i wonder if the code is written by John Foderaro 2015-11-09T14:45:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:46:36Z jdz: every other CL programmer would have used INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND instead of hard-coded 1000 2015-11-09T14:46:48Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:47:20Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:47:59Z jdz: also i should stop doing this 2015-11-09T14:48:20Z otwieracz: Have you ever heard about some CFFI bindings to libc? 2015-11-09T14:48:31Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:50:23Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:50:39Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:50:43Z muyinliu: jdz: Don't know. This code is just come from Allegro Prolog and they say "It is based on the implementation developed by Peter Norvig in Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. The code has been further optimized and useful extensions provided, making an industrial-strength Prolog programming environment with a flexible calling interface in both directions between Common Lisp and Prolog." 2015-11-09T14:52:09Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:52:19Z jdz: muyinliu: sure, my question was more of a rhetorical kind 2015-11-09T14:53:05Z muyinliu: jdz: OK ^_^ 2015-11-09T14:54:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T14:55:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:56:01Z muyinliu: jdz: From the benchmark result, it seems that Allegro Prolog did something to make the code much more efficient. 2015-11-09T14:56:48Z jdz: sure, same way Christophe Rhodes did some changes to original PAIP code to make paiprolog more efficient 2015-11-09T14:56:49Z Lord_of_- quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-09T14:57:30Z jdz: grammar is hard 2015-11-09T14:57:40Z jdz: just as programming 2015-11-09T14:57:52Z muyinliu: jdz: Same benchmark, Allegro Prolog only takes 1.7s and PAIProlog takes 6.5s 2015-11-09T14:58:13Z jdz: that's not too bad of a difference, if you ask me 2015-11-09T14:58:29Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:58:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:59:20Z muyinliu: jdz: At least PAIProlog is much more efficient than the origin code in PAIP ^_^ 2015-11-09T14:59:35Z jdz: the AllegroCL implementation has received a lot more attention since they use the same engine in the AllegroGraph 2015-11-09T14:59:38Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-09T14:59:47Z jdz: AFAIK 2015-11-09T15:00:16Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:00:17Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-09T15:00:28Z Lord_of_- is now known as Lord_of_Life 2015-11-09T15:00:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T15:00:37Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:00:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T15:00:37Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:01:15Z muyinliu: jdz: No wonder... 2015-11-09T15:01:53Z muyinliu: jdz: I didn't know that AllegroGraph use AllegroProlog before... 2015-11-09T15:01:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:01:53Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T15:01:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:03:11Z mission712 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:03:14Z Tristam quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-09T15:03:24Z p_l: it does as part of the query system, iirc 2015-11-09T15:03:26Z jdz: i'm sure the AllegroProlog (is that what it is called?) can be used instead of SPARQL to query AllegroGraph 2015-11-09T15:03:32Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T15:03:47Z p_l: jdz: it's just called "prolog" in AGraph docs 2015-11-09T15:03:52Z jdz: and maybe even SPARQL is translated into Prolog to do the queries 2015-11-09T15:04:09Z jdz: but that's just pure speculation 2015-11-09T15:04:24Z jdz: and a bit offtopic, too 2015-11-09T15:04:57Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:05:47Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-09T15:06:29Z fmeyer joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:07:25Z muyinliu: jdz: Yes. It's called "Allegro Prolog". 2015-11-09T15:07:51Z muyinliu: jdz: "Allegro Prolog™" 2015-11-09T15:08:31Z H4ns: allegro prolog and allegrograph's sparql engine are two completely different things. 2015-11-09T15:08:57Z jdz: H4ns: thanks for clarification 2015-11-09T15:09:07Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:10:37Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T15:10:44Z cadadar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T15:12:47Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:13:43Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:16:31Z DylanJ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T15:16:51Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:17:07Z fredokun left #lisp 2015-11-09T15:17:46Z muyinliu: H4ns: "Prolog is an alternative query mechanism for AllegroGraph. With Prolog, you can specify queries declaratively. The Prolog tutorial provides an introduction to using Prolog and AllegroGraph together. Our Prolog is implemented in Lisp so for Lispers, the combination of Lisp, Prolog, and AllegroGraph are a natural triad. " 2015-11-09T15:18:13Z muyinliu: H4ns: This is come from AllegroGraph's Introduction 2015-11-09T15:18:32Z splittist: Should be "the combination ... is". (: 2015-11-09T15:18:32Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T15:19:27Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T15:19:36Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:19:46Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:21:19Z muyinliu: splittist: Right ^_^ 2015-11-09T15:22:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T15:25:09Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:28:42Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T15:29:07Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:29:33Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-09T15:30:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:31:04Z DylanJ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:31:11Z jilingju quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-09T15:31:56Z nightfuri joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:31:57Z remi`bd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T15:36:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T15:36:50Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T15:37:35Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:37:57Z muyinliu: pjb: jdz: H4ns: Thank you all. bye^_^ 2015-11-09T15:38:04Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-09T15:41:36Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:42:06Z fmeyer quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-09T15:44:23Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T15:44:30Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:45:00Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:46:21Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:46:52Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2015-11-09T15:48:13Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:49:47Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:50:35Z jilingju quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T15:50:35Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T15:51:35Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T15:51:48Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:51:49Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:51:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:52:44Z jilingju quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T15:53:02Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:57:22Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T15:57:51Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:01:00Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:03:26Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-09T16:04:15Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:04:24Z xyh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:05:11Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:07:22Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:09:26Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T16:10:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:11:02Z dbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:11:07Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:12:19Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T16:12:32Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:13:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:14:06Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:15:14Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-09T16:15:24Z xyh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:15:29Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T16:15:48Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:16:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:16:50Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:17:20Z nightfuri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T16:17:31Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:17:32Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:18:39Z dbrock quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.2) 2015-11-09T16:19:01Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-09T16:19:26Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:21:26Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:21:36Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:23:41Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:24:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:26:32Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:26:33Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:27:16Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:27:46Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:29:17Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-09T16:30:20Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:30:46Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:35:08Z ryu0: correct me if i'm wrong, but simple uses of IF appear to mimic the C ternary operator: 2015-11-09T16:35:17Z ryu0: (IF (< X Y) X Y) 2015-11-09T16:35:23Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-09T16:35:24Z ryu0: (X < Y) ? X : Y 2015-11-09T16:35:31Z ryu0: okay. 2015-11-09T16:35:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:36:03Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-09T16:36:11Z pjb: Also, COND, CASE, DOTIMES, DOLIST, DO, LOOP, PROGN, PROG1, PROG2, etc. 2015-11-09T16:36:39Z ryu0: pjb: my book has talked about 'forms', but has yet to define them, but it seems to be used to talk about code bodies. are they similar to code within C {}s? 2015-11-09T16:36:55Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T16:37:04Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-09T16:37:20Z pjb: No. There's no statement in lisp, only expressions. 2015-11-09T16:37:37Z ryu0: ah, but forms do contain a group of expressions? 2015-11-09T16:37:53Z pjb: (setf x (ecase m ((:odd) (let ((n 0)) (dotimes (i 3 n) (incf n))) ((:even) 2)))) 2015-11-09T16:38:15Z pjb: A form will contain elements that depends on the kind of form. 2015-11-09T16:38:28Z ryu0: oh, so it's not just one thing. 2015-11-09T16:38:48Z dlowe: A form is a list of objects intended to be evaluated. Evaluation is the interpretation of a form as an expression 2015-11-09T16:38:53Z pjb: A IF form will contain 2 or 3 subforms. A LET form will contain a list of bindings followed by a possibly empty list of declarations followed by a possibly empty list of forms. 2015-11-09T16:39:20Z ryu0: subforms? the test and true and false parts? 2015-11-09T16:40:40Z ryu0: sounds like a form is a more complicated kind of expression... 2015-11-09T16:40:46Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:40:48Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:41:38Z mordocai: ryu0: I felt like this is a decent explanation of form http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2877371/definition-of-lisp-form. I'd like to see if pjb agrees (i'm a noob myself) 2015-11-09T16:41:40Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T16:41:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:42:37Z ryu0: (3 4 1) <-- not a form it says. would it be a form if you quoted it then? 2015-11-09T16:43:20Z mordocai: ryu0: Well then it would be (quote (3 4 1)) so yes IMO (keeping in mind I'm not an expert) 2015-11-09T16:43:58Z mordocai: ryu0: '(3 4 1) is shorthand for (quote (3 4 1)) if you didn't know 2015-11-09T16:44:03Z ryu0: yes, i'm aware. 2015-11-09T16:44:10Z mordocai: Just double checking :) 2015-11-09T16:44:18Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:44:43Z dlowe: ryu0: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 2015-11-09T16:45:01Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T16:45:09Z ryu0: mordocai: i had the idea that forms were a chain of expressions, with the last one defining its result. 2015-11-09T16:45:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:45:23Z mordocai: dlowe: As usual, hyperspec is excellent but very dense and hard to follow for newbies 2015-11-09T16:45:24Z ryu0: so it kind of reminded me of using {}s to group statements. 2015-11-09T16:45:31Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-09T16:45:41Z dlowe: I think that entry is pretty straightforward 2015-11-09T16:45:53Z ryu0: compound form? 2015-11-09T16:45:56Z mordocai: I'm sure you do. Someone knew to lisp and/or programming isn't like to 2015-11-09T16:46:00Z mordocai: new* 2015-11-09T16:46:24Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:46:25Z ryu0: ugh. clearly i need to finish the book to even begin to follow all these terms. 2015-11-09T16:46:45Z mordocai: ryu0: Which book? 2015-11-09T16:46:48Z ryu0: gentle. 2015-11-09T16:47:11Z ryu0: i have a lot of experience with imperative, but little functional experience. 2015-11-09T16:47:18Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:47:24Z ryu0: and Lisp as well. 2015-11-09T16:47:32Z mordocai: ryu0: Compound form is basically what you were calling a "chain of expressions" I believe. A form made up of multiple other forms. 2015-11-09T16:47:53Z zwdr: Hmm, I liked what I read somewhere, functional is imperative turned inside-out 2015-11-09T16:48:06Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T16:48:29Z mordocai: ryu0: The good news is, you don't have to understand the terms to write code. You can fill in the terms after you have some experience, and the defintions should hopefully make more sense then. 2015-11-09T16:48:52Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:49:09Z ryu0: funny thing is i later realized C is more complex than the ANSI C book suggests... 2015-11-09T16:49:50Z ryu0: the language may not be too complex but it appears you also need to know about system details to use it well at times. 2015-11-09T16:50:13Z mordocai: Yeah, you are very close to the system in C 2015-11-09T16:50:14Z dwchandler: that's true to varying degrees of all languages 2015-11-09T16:50:25Z mordocai: ^^ what dwchandler said as well 2015-11-09T16:50:27Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-09T16:50:41Z ryu0: one big one being struct alignment... 2015-11-09T16:50:57Z ryu0: if you order your members haphazardly you could end up wasting a lot of memory. 2015-11-09T16:51:19Z zwdr: I believe the best way to learn FP in Lisp is just by using it 2015-11-09T16:51:23Z zwdr: it comes natural 2015-11-09T16:51:24Z bogwonch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:51:40Z dwchandler: write code, read code :) 2015-11-09T16:51:47Z zwdr: of course you gotta know about abstractions in FP 2015-11-09T16:52:15Z ryu0: how does that differ from abstractions in C/C++? i am somewhat familiar with abstracting implementation details. 2015-11-09T16:52:16Z zwdr: but the down-and-dirty day-to-day code comes naturally 2015-11-09T16:52:38Z ryu0: i believe it's called encapsulation? 2015-11-09T16:52:48Z ryu0: or am i thinking of the wrong thing? 2015-11-09T16:53:02Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:53:10Z zwdr: I meant stuff such as currying and using lexical closures 2015-11-09T16:53:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:53:18Z zwdr: means of combination 2015-11-09T16:53:27Z ryu0: function composition? 2015-11-09T16:53:33Z zwdr: yea exactly 2015-11-09T16:53:50Z ryu0: i'm at least familiar with basics of mathematics functions. 2015-11-09T16:53:57Z zwdr: I'm not :s 2015-11-09T16:54:06Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:54:19Z ryu0: really? you've never used f(x) and such? 2015-11-09T16:54:37Z zwdr: a bit, and I know a function maps input to output and so on 2015-11-09T16:54:52Z zwdr: but it's nebulous 2015-11-09T16:54:59Z ryu0: i first encountered them in regards to algebra and cartesian graphs. 2015-11-09T16:55:27Z ryu0: not all drawing equations are functions. 2015-11-09T16:56:15Z ryu0: it got me thinking about lossless compression. it has to be built on invertible functions. 2015-11-09T16:56:15Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T16:56:26Z ryu0: since, you can undo it to get the same data back. 2015-11-09T16:57:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:57:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T16:57:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:57:53Z bamorim joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:58:01Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-09T16:58:06Z ryu0: zwdr: yea, i encountered functions a 2nd time in discrete mathematics. they were used to map things other than numbers. 2015-11-09T16:58:22Z zwdr: mmh, originally I wanted to say that some people seem baffled when first trying FP -- especially from OOP -- because they have no idea about the means of combination FP uses 2015-11-09T16:58:52Z zwdr: (which is no critique about those people, you rarely use that stuff in OOP) 2015-11-09T16:59:02Z zwdr: just for the records :s 2015-11-09T16:59:07Z mordocai: zwdr: Mathmatics-heavy people seem to easily pickup FP. I think your assertion is true for most other people. 2015-11-09T16:59:25Z mordocai: I got a gentle introduction since I learned ruby with is a bit of a OOP + FP mix 2015-11-09T16:59:34Z ryu0: i guess that includes me. i've just been using imperative this whole time. 2015-11-09T16:59:42Z mordocai: With idiomatic code anyway 2015-11-09T16:59:42Z zwdr: ryu0: FP got me really interested in maths again, I'm looking forward to learning that stuff again 2015-11-09T16:59:58Z ryu0: zwdr: and your age? O_o 2015-11-09T16:59:59Z zwdr: mordocai: I really like Ruby :3 2015-11-09T17:00:03Z zwdr: ryu0: 23 2015-11-09T17:00:08Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-09T17:00:12Z ryu0: i'm 29 soon. 2015-11-09T17:00:12Z zwdr: learn for myself I mean 2015-11-09T17:00:31Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:00:46Z mordocai: Yeah, i'm caching back up on math through khan academy myself 2015-11-09T17:00:49Z mordocai: Seems to work fairly well 2015-11-09T17:00:55Z ryu0: i had fiddled with lisp for years before i bothered to study it now. 2015-11-09T17:01:03Z DeadTrickster: I'm slowly dying because of that famous slime packet-filter error 2015-11-09T17:01:06Z zwdr: it's a shame school stopped for me before we got to the interesting bits 2015-11-09T17:01:08Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:01:12Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:01:15Z ryu0: i think my first exposure to Lisp was actually.. uh... 2015-11-09T17:01:20Z mordocai: zwdr: Same here. 2015-11-09T17:01:22Z ryu0: sawfish's REPL. 2015-11-09T17:01:23Z zwdr: SICP here 2015-11-09T17:01:30Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:01:43Z zwdr: Then I wrote stuff in Racket 2015-11-09T17:01:44Z ryu0: it's extensible in a Lisp dialect. 2015-11-09T17:01:50Z ryu0: uses it for everything beyond the C core. 2015-11-09T17:01:59Z joshe: hah, I remember sawfish 2015-11-09T17:02:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:02:57Z ryu0: CL seems to have one edge over other dynamic languages... 2015-11-09T17:03:05Z bjorkintosh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T17:03:20Z ryu0: i haven't seen a dynamic language that offers as many options for optimizing code. 2015-11-09T17:03:40Z pjb: mordocai: while I may sometime use a more lax language, I will swear only by the CLHS. Check the glossary. 2015-11-09T17:03:56Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:04:05Z zwdr: currently I stand between CL and Scheme 2015-11-09T17:04:11Z mordocai: pjb: It's great, just hard to follow for newbies. Lots of levels of "Well now I need to know this definition, now this one, now this one..." 2015-11-09T17:04:12Z zwdr: both are great 2015-11-09T17:04:30Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:04:30Z ryu0: mordocai: the wikipedia problem? 2015-11-09T17:04:36Z ryu0: lol. 2015-11-09T17:04:45Z ryu0: interconnected definitions. 2015-11-09T17:04:48Z ryu0: :D 2015-11-09T17:05:06Z zwdr: so what would be the equivalent to that wikipedia game where you try to reach hitler? :V 2015-11-09T17:05:30Z mordocai: Not sure if it is actually complex enough to be fun for a game... 2015-11-09T17:06:02Z ryu0: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_problem_with_wikipedia.png 2015-11-09T17:06:04Z ryu0: :D 2015-11-09T17:06:06Z pjb: ryu0: there's no notion of "chain" of expression. There are operators such as PROG1 PROG2 PROGN and others that will let you evaluate several expressions one after the other, with a specific order, and returning the results or one result of one of those forms (not necessarily the last one!). 2015-11-09T17:07:03Z pjb: ryu0: in general, the evaluation rules specify that subforms are evaluated from left to right, but there may be exceptions, notably for user defined macros, or eg. in the case of the return-forms in dolist dotimes, etc. 2015-11-09T17:07:30Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:07:46Z pjb: (dolist (e '(1 2) (print 'done-last)) (print (list 'in-the-loop e))) #| 2015-11-09T17:07:46Z pjb: (in-the-loop 1) 2015-11-09T17:07:46Z pjb: (in-the-loop 2) 2015-11-09T17:07:46Z pjb: done-last --> done-last |# 2015-11-09T17:08:07Z pjb: (progn (print 'done-first) (print 'done-last)) #| 2015-11-09T17:08:07Z pjb: done-first 2015-11-09T17:08:07Z pjb: done-last --> done-last |# 2015-11-09T17:08:43Z ryu0: pjb: well, i was thinking of it that way if you needed to use multiple expressions in say part of IF. 2015-11-09T17:09:00Z ryu0: such as the true or false part. 2015-11-09T17:09:26Z ryu0: i guess i'm thinking too much like imperative statements where you need to change state a few times to get the desired result. 2015-11-09T17:09:35Z DeadTrickster: progn? 2015-11-09T17:09:54Z ryu0: or rather, change variables. 2015-11-09T17:10:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:10:19Z DeadTrickster: error in process filter 2015-11-09T17:10:27Z ryu0: DeadTrickster: ? 2015-11-09T17:10:29Z DeadTrickster: I f* hate it 2015-11-09T17:10:58Z DeadTrickster: whenever I turn debug output on slime collapses 2015-11-09T17:11:15Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-09T17:11:24Z DeadTrickster: I think because it can't handle large or frequent inputs 2015-11-09T17:11:35Z ryu0: pjb: what do you call it then if you end up needing to make separate calls to set? 2015-11-09T17:11:38Z xyh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:11:48Z ryu0: within the same... uh... 2015-11-09T17:12:12Z mordocai: DeadTrickster: You might see if sly has fixed that bug 2015-11-09T17:12:13Z ryu0: within the same true part of an IF expression. 2015-11-09T17:12:22Z mordocai: DeadTrickster: New fork of slime 2015-11-09T17:12:31Z mordocai: By the same maintainer 2015-11-09T17:12:43Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:12:47Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-09T17:12:55Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:13:02Z ryu0: oh, but i guess now that it think about it, it's not the same... 2015-11-09T17:13:18Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T17:13:32Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:13:33Z ryu0: could just do this or such: 2015-11-09T17:13:42Z ryu0: (list (set 'x 1) (set 'y 1)) 2015-11-09T17:14:07Z ryu0: modifies variables and returns their values in a list. 2015-11-09T17:14:09Z jdz: ryu0: why SET and not SETQ? 2015-11-09T17:14:22Z ryu0: jdz: no particular reason. i don't know the difference ye 2015-11-09T17:14:24Z ryu0: ye. 2015-11-09T17:14:29Z ryu0: blasted keys. 2015-11-09T17:14:32Z ryu0: LOL 2015-11-09T17:14:39Z jdz: then just use SETF 2015-11-09T17:15:04Z pjb: #+clisp(let ((m 0) x y) (setf (if (zerop m) x y) 1) (list m x y)) --> (0 1 NIL) 2015-11-09T17:15:11Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:15:23Z pjb: You can define a setter for IF to do that. It's not standard, but clisp has one pre-defined. 2015-11-09T17:15:28Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-09T17:16:03Z DeadTrickster: mordocai, I don't like repl color scheme ) 2015-11-09T17:16:03Z ryu0: pjb: i'm starting to see why this distrinction matters. it's because C {}s and such do not return a value? 2015-11-09T17:16:05Z pjb: (let (x y) (setf x 1 y 2) (list x y)) #| --> (1 2) |# 2015-11-09T17:16:05Z Bike: spooky. 2015-11-09T17:16:16Z pjb: ryu0: yes. 2015-11-09T17:16:21Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:16:37Z pjb: Bike: (setf (if (zerop m) x y) (if (zerop m) 1 2)) 2015-11-09T17:16:50Z Bike: heh. 2015-11-09T17:16:56Z Bike: i mean, i get how it works, it's just kinda odd. 2015-11-09T17:17:10Z pjb: Bike: (setf (if (zerop m) x (values x y)) (if (zerop m) 0 (values 1 2))) ;-) 2015-11-09T17:17:18Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:17:18Z jdz: (if (zerop m) (setf x 1) (setf y 2)) 2015-11-09T17:17:23Z Bike: i'd probably rather move the if out if i'm doing it twice anyway 2015-11-09T17:17:53Z pjb: jdz: of course. Nonethess, sometimes it's good to be able to use a (setf if). Imagine if x is actually a very complex form with lot of side effects. 2015-11-09T17:17:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:18:25Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:19:11Z jdz: i'll try to watch out for cases where this could come in handy, but can't recall i've ever wanted it (probably because i did not think that's an option) 2015-11-09T17:19:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:19:53Z Bike: is there a (setf cond) 2015-11-09T17:19:54Z ryu0: pjb: is this the same problem with reusing substitutions in C macros? 2015-11-09T17:20:09Z ryu0: you could create a bug due to how the expression was written? 2015-11-09T17:20:23Z Bike: a (setf case), a (setf pprint-logical-block), oh the possibilities 2015-11-09T17:20:38Z ryu0: and it end up being evaluted multiple times? 2015-11-09T17:20:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:20:46Z ryu0: evaluated. 2015-11-09T17:20:56Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:24:17Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:27:21Z pjb: Bike: there's not, but one could write one. 2015-11-09T17:28:41Z pjb: ryu0: indeed, setf expanders and macros shall take care of avoiding multiple evaluation of the side effects of their place arguments. 2015-11-09T17:29:59Z pjb: ryu0: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_a.htm http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm 2015-11-09T17:31:12Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:31:18Z pjb: The most funny places are those like: (setf (* 2 x) 3) (assert (= x 3/2)) 2015-11-09T17:31:50Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:33:20Z pjb: As long as the operations are reversible you could build any expression of them (setf (+ 4 (* 2 x)) 3) but already, (setf (* x x) 4) becomes ambiguous since there are two roots. 2015-11-09T17:35:06Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:36:47Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:39:02Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:41:46Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T17:41:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:42:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:43:10Z ryu0: pjb: i thought set had to be passed a symbol. O_o 2015-11-09T17:44:13Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:45:06Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:45:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:46:11Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:47:44Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:47:44Z _cosmona` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T17:48:05Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:49:49Z Bike: set does. this isn't set 2015-11-09T17:51:16Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-09T17:52:33Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:52:33Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T17:52:33Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T17:53:13Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:54:49Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:55:58Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:56:15Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-09T17:57:00Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-11-09T17:57:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T17:59:39Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T17:59:53Z jfe: i'm only 4 years into the software industry, and i've only worked at this one company, so maybe i'm just inexperienced or naive. but for anyone else here who writes software for a living, do you find it frustrating that ideas like domain-specific-languages, dynamic typing, functions as first-order objects, etc. haven't really taken hold in the industry? 2015-11-09T17:59:56Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T18:00:32Z blubjr: what subset of the industry is that 2015-11-09T18:01:18Z mordocai: Soo... DSLs are bad for companys in general (if not really well made), dynamic typing has taken over in large parts of the industry, most used languages have first class functions now (even java... kind've)... so yeah. Not seeing your perspective. 2015-11-09T18:01:42Z lambda-boy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:01:48Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:01:51Z mordocai: DSLs are bad for company's because it makes programmers less cog-like, which companys like to think programmers are cogs (they aren't, but DSLs make it more obvious they aren't) 2015-11-09T18:02:00Z mordocai: Ignore the first possesive companys 2015-11-09T18:02:02Z WideSilence joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:02:16Z jfe: the company i work for is comprised of mostly assembly and C/C++ programmers. 2015-11-09T18:02:26Z mordocai: Yeah, that is a niche industry 2015-11-09T18:02:31Z blubjr: everything has dsls now thats where you make your function names verbs i think 2015-11-09T18:02:39Z WideSilence quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T18:02:59Z mordocai: Most programmers are using higher level languages now in my experience 2015-11-09T18:03:05Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:03:16Z mordocai: It is only the high performance/embedded industries that have to stick with lower level languages 2015-11-09T18:03:19Z jfe: we design our own hardware, so maybe it is a niche. 2015-11-09T18:03:28Z phf: i think traditional way to do a dsl with c/c++ is lex/yacc 2015-11-09T18:03:29Z jfe: yeah, we basically do embedded stuff. 2015-11-09T18:04:04Z mordocai: jfe: You might start looking at rust. Should have decent performance/lower profile + be relatively easy for existing c/C++ guys to pick up. 2015-11-09T18:04:11Z jfe: the QA group here is slowly adopting Python for some things... but after learning lisp, even that makes me cringe. 2015-11-09T18:04:12Z mordocai: jfe: Don't expect to be able to just switch though 2015-11-09T18:04:22Z zwdr: In some cases Rust performs better than C 2015-11-09T18:04:25Z zwdr: so I have herad 2015-11-09T18:04:28Z zwdr: *heard 2015-11-09T18:04:31Z mordocai: So can common lsp :P 2015-11-09T18:04:33Z mordocai: lisp* 2015-11-09T18:04:43Z zwdr: yea, but cases where you would use C :v 2015-11-09T18:04:50Z mordocai: Yeah 2015-11-09T18:05:03Z mordocai: jfe: If you are being drawn to high level languages you should probably get away from embedded. 2015-11-09T18:05:14Z zwdr: But I mean, there is FP in certain niches 2015-11-09T18:05:26Z mordocai: Yeah, I'm just talking about generalities 2015-11-09T18:05:56Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:06:12Z jfe: i enjoy embedded programming. i like working close to the machine. but you can still use high-level languages to generate raw machine code, and avoid a lot of the complexities you would have using C/C++. 2015-11-09T18:06:30Z dwchandler: forth ;) 2015-11-09T18:06:46Z zwdr: I actually looked at forth the first time today! 2015-11-09T18:06:55Z zwdr: it's interesting 2015-11-09T18:07:41Z mordocai: jfe: Yeah, you are correct that that kind of thing hasn't really caught on in most of the industry. Most companies use C/C++ because that is what "everyone uses" 2015-11-09T18:07:53Z mordocai: jfe: For embedded 2015-11-09T18:08:01Z dwchandler: zwdr: fun read (at least to me) http://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines.html 2015-11-09T18:08:11Z zwdr: oh, thanks for the link! 2015-11-09T18:08:33Z lambda-boy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T18:08:50Z zwdr: I wanted to implement a toy langauge and multiple people recommended a simple stack based interpreter 2015-11-09T18:09:10Z mordocai: jfe: I don't know how well it applies to embedded, but an easy way to get a new language into the company is to start with tests 2015-11-09T18:09:54Z jfe: my company developed a product that made us a lot of money. it was done in 530k lines of C, took a few minutes to build from scratch. its predecessor is 2.6 million lines of C/C++, takes hours to build, and has fewer features. i can't help but wonder if that 5-fold increase in complexity was really necessary. 2015-11-09T18:10:08Z lambda-boy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:10:14Z jfe: and if it was, if using a higher level language couldn't have reduced it. 2015-11-09T18:10:40Z mordocai: jfe: It probably wasn't, and using a higher level language might have helped. What you described is a common problem in the industry 2015-11-09T18:11:22Z zwdr: I'm writing code for a CMS that was modern 10 years ago, but still gets used inhouse 2015-11-09T18:11:28Z zwdr: another common problem! 2015-11-09T18:12:02Z zwdr: still better than using wordpress I guess 2015-11-09T18:12:08Z phf: jfe: how large was the final, statically linked executable? what does the memory profile looks like? what are the hardware imposed memory/cpu limitations? 2015-11-09T18:12:13Z zwdr: anyway, I wanted to say that the industry sometimes is shite 2015-11-09T18:12:39Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:13:09Z mordocai: phf: If it is anything like much of the industry, no one in the company knows most of those answers. 2015-11-09T18:13:23Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:13:52Z mordocai has a cynical view on the industry 2015-11-09T18:13:56Z phf: mordocai: it's also possible that they don't need to know, because their conservative choice of stack allows them to not think about it too much, or until they hit a constraint explicitly 2015-11-09T18:14:31Z mordocai: phf: True. The problem is not knowing may be costing the company a bunch of money too. Nothing is straightforward :) 2015-11-09T18:14:40Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:14:40Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T18:14:40Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:14:51Z jfe: i'm a little depressed over the fact that few companies embrace the lessons we've learned from computer science about reducing complexity, like DSL's. i got into computing to solve interesting problems in elegant ways. not to just keep piling on Yet Another C++ Class. 2015-11-09T18:15:14Z Shinmera: But OOP is the future!! 2015-11-09T18:15:18Z mordocai: jfe: Eh, there are places in the industry you can do that. They are few and far between 2015-11-09T18:15:35Z mordocai: jfe: I would say that you should have stayed in academics, but i've seen some of that code too 2015-11-09T18:15:40Z phf: last time i looked at rust for example it produces atrociously large executables when statically linked (which is understandable, embedded is not their target, safety at modern scale is) 2015-11-09T18:15:42Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:15:43Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:16:08Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:16:17Z mordocai: phf: I was under the impression that embedded was one of their long-term goals, but I may be incorrect 2015-11-09T18:16:34Z mordocai: I know that they didn't worry about performance or size much until after 1.0 2015-11-09T18:16:53Z jfe: i mean, if we're not applying these lessons, then we're complicit in creating our own hell. and so it seems the job of a programmer is to make his or her hell as heavenly as possible, but no more heavenly! 2015-11-09T18:17:04Z mordocai: jfe: Yep, sounds about right 2015-11-09T18:17:33Z ryu0: jfe: perhaps create your own interesting problems? profit motive seems at odds with what you wish to do? 2015-11-09T18:17:37Z mordocai: jfe: Keep in mind i'm overly cynical 2015-11-09T18:17:52Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T18:18:35Z mordocai: ryu0: That's certainly my problem. Profit motive is opposite of what I want. So I work on FOSS projects in my free time and try to make my day job as interesting as possible. 2015-11-09T18:18:53Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T18:19:18Z mordocai would love a hippie wonderland where he could just program for the fun of it and still support his family. 2015-11-09T18:19:19Z ryu0: i wonder what happened to lisp / scheme being used to teach CS. 2015-11-09T18:19:26Z ryu0: i remember reading it used to be the language of choice. 2015-11-09T18:19:32Z mordocai: It still is in a few places 2015-11-09T18:19:57Z mordocai: Most moved to python because it is "more likely to be used in the industry" and considered easier. I think those were the reasons anyway, not sure. 2015-11-09T18:20:05Z mordocai: And java for similar reasons 2015-11-09T18:20:09Z ryu0: Java. 2015-11-09T18:20:11Z ryu0 winces. 2015-11-09T18:20:23Z mordocai: Yeah, the CS program I looked into was java based 2015-11-09T18:20:27Z mordocai: Linux though at least 2015-11-09T18:20:29Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:20:37Z ryu0: i had the choice of Java, C#, or C++. what do you think i picked? 2015-11-09T18:20:49Z ryu0: C++. 2015-11-09T18:20:56Z ryu0: closest language to C. 2015-11-09T18:21:05Z ryu0: which i already know a lot about. 2015-11-09T18:21:38Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:21:42Z mordocai: C# is a nice language compared to the other two, but still very microsoft focused 2015-11-09T18:22:10Z ryu0: i'm concerned with how portable C# even is. are the runtime libraries even standardized? 2015-11-09T18:22:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:22:32Z mordocai: Nope. They are working on open-sourcing/porting to mac and linux now. It isn't all there yet AFAIK 2015-11-09T18:22:40Z mordocai: Mono isn't quite up to par 2015-11-09T18:22:48Z mordocai: And is going away in favor of the above 2015-11-09T18:22:50Z jfe: i think alan kay was right when he said computer science is a pop culture. 2015-11-09T18:25:24Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:25:37Z mordocai: jfe: I don't feel CS is, I feel the industry is. I can't recall Alan Kay's context off the top of my head though 2015-11-09T18:26:06Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:27:44Z attila_lendvai: there's a new projectured demo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05SlmZ7ZPc (it's 20k LoC of cl code, a framework to edit structures (as opposed to a string of characters). bird's eye view: https://github.com/projectured/projectured/wiki/Overview ) 2015-11-09T18:28:03Z attila_lendvai: it's both lazy and incremental 2015-11-09T18:29:07Z attila_lendvai: it's basically a very different look at gui frameworks and I think it has a lot of potential 2015-11-09T18:29:52Z attila_lendvai: basically it's a graphical REPL 2015-11-09T18:31:11Z jfe: attila_lendvai: pretty cool. is this yours? 2015-11-09T18:31:37Z mordocai: phf: To your earlier point, my last job is a case of losing money due to just assuming they needed a lower level language. It turned out that they could use ruby (one of the least efficient languages in existence) and get acceptable performance at a hugely lower maintenance and development cost. 2015-11-09T18:31:55Z mordocai: Only reason they picked ruby was because developers on the team knew it 2015-11-09T18:32:10Z attila_lendvai: jfe: my friend wrote it, but we worked on this idea together a decade ago in a startup (as employees) 2015-11-09T18:33:58Z lambda-boy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:36:11Z shum joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:36:22Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:36:43Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:38:29Z xyh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.38/20151005122910]) 2015-11-09T18:39:02Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-11-09T18:39:45Z xyh_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:40:02Z xyh_ is now known as xyh 2015-11-09T18:40:24Z xyh quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T18:41:02Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T18:41:03Z bamorim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:41:06Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:42:12Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:42:18Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T18:43:24Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:43:24Z eak_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:43:33Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:43:45Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:44:00Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:44:29Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:44:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:44:35Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:44:50Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T18:45:10Z eak joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:48:02Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T18:49:14Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:51:05Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-09T18:51:33Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-11-09T18:51:33Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:51:48Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:52:14Z halfcrazy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T18:53:44Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:55:24Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:56:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:56:57Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-09T18:57:54Z xyh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.38/20151005122910]) 2015-11-09T18:59:58Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:01:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:02:02Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:02:53Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:03:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-09T19:03:22Z otwieracz: I am trying to create CFFI bindings to some libc stuff (getutent, for /var/run/tmp parsing) 2015-11-09T19:03:52Z otwieracz: I've recreated utmp structure just like in man 5 utmp 2015-11-09T19:04:04Z otwieracz: And the result: 2015-11-09T19:04:27Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-09T19:04:45Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158909 2015-11-09T19:04:52Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:05:05Z otwieracz: What I can do with those foreign pointers? 2015-11-09T19:05:12Z mordocai: otwieracz: I'm not very familiar with CFFI, but have you considered using https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap? 2015-11-09T19:05:20Z otwieracz: I mean, ut-id for example is: :char :count 4 2015-11-09T19:05:22Z mordocai: It works great for cl-sd2 2015-11-09T19:05:27Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:06:16Z otwieracz: I need only ~one structure and few functions, this should be easy (and I'd like to learn new things) 2015-11-09T19:07:07Z mordocai: otwieracz: So in general, as long as you tell CFFI itss type you can dereference pointers. 2015-11-09T19:07:32Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T19:07:37Z otwieracz: how can I? 2015-11-09T19:08:21Z otwieracz: As I said, it's: (ut-id :char :count 4) 2015-11-09T19:09:24Z mordocai: otwieracz: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Accessing-Foreign-Memory 2015-11-09T19:10:02Z mordocai: otwieracz: Basically use mem-ref/mem-aref I think. 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Also, Is it possible to call common lisp code from c++ (or integrate the two into a single software application)? 2015-11-09T19:48:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:49:15Z dlowe: jperkin13: since you're asking in #lisp, yes, lisp is good for all the things! 2015-11-09T19:49:23Z dlowe: jperkin13: except for c++ integration 2015-11-09T19:49:42Z Shinmera: Clasp to the rescue. 2015-11-09T19:49:57Z dlowe: jperkin13: that's being worked on by very smart people, but in the meantime, you can make do with excellent integration with C 2015-11-09T19:49:59Z jperkin13: So, what would be the best approach to combining the two? 2015-11-09T19:50:22Z dlowe: Shinmera: my impression was that it wasn't quite ready for mortals yet 2015-11-09T19:50:26Z Shinmera: If you want to get your feet, and probably upper body too, wet you could look into Clasp. 2015-11-09T19:50:56Z Shinmera: dlowe: That is the case currently, yes. 2015-11-09T19:51:14Z Shinmera: dlowe: Though we got things like an SFML binding going, so things are moving along. 2015-11-09T19:51:31Z dlowe: Shinmera: yeah, it's super cool 2015-11-09T19:51:43Z mordocai: jperkin13: I'd personally say wrap the C++ with C then use the C bindings 2015-11-09T19:51:51Z mordocai: Though clasp looks fun 2015-11-09T19:51:56Z jperkin13: Does anyone happen to know if gui's can be developed using lisp only? 2015-11-09T19:51:56Z bamorim joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:51:59Z dlowe: if you want to wrap the other way, there's an embeddable common lisp called ECL 2015-11-09T19:52:15Z dlowe: Yes, they can. 2015-11-09T19:52:16Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:52:31Z Shinmera: jperkin13: They can, though it's not the usual approach at the moment. 2015-11-09T19:52:34Z mordocai: Usually I think people end up using CFFI stuff for better integration but they can 2015-11-09T19:53:22Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:53:47Z jperkin13: So, say for example, I wrote lisp code and wanted to integrate it with a gui, then I would have to write the gui in C code, but not C++( like qt gui framework)? 2015-11-09T19:54:01Z Shinmera: You can use Qt from CL 2015-11-09T19:54:02Z dlowe: jperkin13: there's a C Qt shim called smoke 2015-11-09T19:54:19Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2015-11-09T19:55:27Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-09T19:56:01Z mordocai: jperkin13: What they are saying about is basically you call the C functions directly from lisp, rather than writing a bunch of C code then using it from lisp. 2015-11-09T19:56:06Z mordocai: saying above* 2015-11-09T19:56:56Z jperkin13 left #lisp 2015-11-09T19:57:15Z Shinmera: Well ok then 2015-11-09T19:58:18Z gaya- quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T19:58:20Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T20:09:33Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-09T20:10:17Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T20:10:40Z ryu0: just finished chapter 4 of gentle. it keeps reiterating not to quote arguments to macros. is this because they are not automatically evaluated when passed to macros? 2015-11-09T20:11:08Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T20:11:18Z Shinmera: Macros are run before the forms are evaluated, so the only thing a macro can receive is the literal arguments. 2015-11-09T20:11:32Z ryu0: and thus when they are first evaluated by the macro, it would just be undoing the quote? 2015-11-09T20:11:35Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-09T20:11:48Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:12:20Z ryu0: sounds like how the preprocessor of C does macros... 2015-11-09T20:12:35Z Shinmera: The difference is that the preprocessor works on text and has no idea about structure 2015-11-09T20:12:36Z ryu0: it expands the text first, and then the compiler 'evaluates' it i guess. 2015-11-09T20:12:52Z resttime: MACROEXPAND-1 and MACROEXPAND are neat things to test/discover macro behaviour. 2015-11-09T20:12:53Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:12:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T20:12:54Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:13:02Z Shinmera: Whereas macros get and output an AST in the form of cons cells. 2015-11-09T20:13:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:13:18Z ryu0: so they are capable of more? 2015-11-09T20:13:23Z Shinmera: Much more. 2015-11-09T20:13:33Z Shinmera: They can also run arbitrary code and call to other lisp functions. 2015-11-09T20:14:27Z ryu0: i was reading DEFUN is a macro. i'm guessing it's an implementation defined macro abstraction for defining your own functions? 2015-11-09T20:14:52Z Shinmera: Try (macroexpand-1 '(defun foo (a b) (+ a b))) or something similar and you can see how it works. 2015-11-09T20:14:57Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:15:15Z ryu0: is the result implementation specific? 2015-11-09T20:15:30Z Shinmera: Specifically yes, semantically no. 2015-11-09T20:15:55Z ryu0: semantics being what it does? 2015-11-09T20:15:56Z Shinmera: The clhs defines the semantics, so you can look that up. What exactly the outputted code is is up to the implementation. 2015-11-09T20:16:03Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-11-09T20:16:10Z quasus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-09T20:16:53Z Bicyclidine: some aspects of the semantics may differ between implementations too, though the basic setting an fdefinition is gonna stick around 2015-11-09T20:17:10Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:17:46Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:18:29Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:18:36Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-11-09T20:18:38Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T20:18:38Z jewel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T20:18:41Z ryu0: Shinmera: so one difference between macros and functions is that macros control how their arguments are evaluated? 2015-11-09T20:18:50Z ozihcs left #lisp 2015-11-09T20:18:57Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T20:19:15Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:20:18Z ryu0: lisp conditionals are certainly more interesting than i expected... 2015-11-09T20:21:37Z ryu0: i suppose this is good practice. seems like everything has a return value. 2015-11-09T20:21:42Z Shinmera: ryu0: The difference is when they are run. 2015-11-09T20:22:13Z dlowe: ryu0: macros are basically compiler extensions. 2015-11-09T20:22:16Z Shinmera: macros are run during macroexpansion time, functions are run during execution time. 2015-11-09T20:22:32Z oleo: ye 2015-11-09T20:22:34Z Shinmera: The basic process of running something is READ => MACROEXPAND => EVALUATE 2015-11-09T20:22:34Z oleo: :) 2015-11-09T20:22:44Z oleo: hahahha, i always forget..... 2015-11-09T20:23:09Z Wojciech_K quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T20:23:34Z ryu0: sounds similar to how C compiler works with the CPP. 2015-11-09T20:23:48Z phf: mordocai: that sounds like no choice at all, i.e. not a conscious engineeering decision made by professionals. i don't see why we should be guided by personal whims (we want to use !!) or ignorance (everyone uses java!!). sometimes c or forth are the right and only choice, and sometimes it's java. after all gosling was not an idiot and was optimizing for some properties. if you find yourself in a position of using 2015-11-09T20:23:48Z phf: java, then maybe you're the cog, rather then your mgmt is "ignorant". 2015-11-09T20:24:01Z ryu0: macros always get expanded before the compiler gets to see anything. 2015-11-09T20:24:21Z resttime: ryu0: Something to keep in mind is that you won't be able to pass macros around like functions, I think that's something a lot of people encounter at some point. 2015-11-09T20:24:27Z Bicyclidine: it's like cpp, except it operates on the AST instead of tokens, you can use lisp instead of a bizarre token-pasting language, and it doesn't suck 2015-11-09T20:24:42Z Shinmera: So basically nothing like cpp? :) 2015-11-09T20:24:50Z ryu0: resttime: same issue in C with function pointers. they have to point to an actual function somewhere. 2015-11-09T20:25:04Z ryu0: not function-like macro. 2015-11-09T20:25:20Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:25:46Z resttime: Well it's mostly the sneaky macros disguised as functions lol 2015-11-09T20:26:09Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:26:17Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:26:52Z Natch quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-09T20:26:54Z Bicyclidine: because you can actually use complex code, macros in lisp are a lot differently used than macros in C, practically speaking 2015-11-09T20:26:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:27:07Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:27:08Z Bicyclidine: when i write C now i tend to want to use lots of complicated macros and hit my head on ## a lot 2015-11-09T20:27:15Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-11-09T20:27:19Z Compz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:27:48Z ryu0: iirc, isn't ## for converting a macro argument to a string literal? 2015-11-09T20:28:17Z Bicyclidine: that's # 2015-11-09T20:28:28Z ryu0: oh, right. -facepalm- 2015-11-09T20:28:46Z Bicyclidine: ## is for making tokens out of other tokens. god i wish there was a gensym 2015-11-09T20:28:53Z ryu0: concatenation? 2015-11-09T20:28:57Z Bicyclidine: yea 2015-11-09T20:29:29Z ryu0: yea, and i've seen some programmers forget that C string literals can be concatenated by the compiler if they're next to each other in the token stream. 2015-11-09T20:29:33Z ryu0: "a" "b" -> "ab" 2015-11-09T20:29:36Z ryu0: etc. 2015-11-09T20:29:49Z ryu0: useful sometimes. 2015-11-09T20:30:51Z Compz quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-09T20:31:18Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T20:31:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:31:50Z mordocai: phf: True, but my point was I think a lot of people in the industry don't make conscious engineering decisions by professionals for decisions like programming language. 2015-11-09T20:32:22Z yvm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T20:32:45Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:33:21Z ryu0: ugh. can hardly wait to cover enough material to get started with real programs. 2015-11-09T20:33:47Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:34:19Z mordocai was writing "real programs" with lisp day one. They just sucked. 2015-11-09T20:34:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:34:27Z ryu0: heh. 2015-11-09T20:34:43Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T20:34:55Z ryu0: i was thinking more along the lines of knowing enough to do loops, conditionals, etc that i'm used to doing in C. 2015-11-09T20:35:02Z prxq: mordocai: whatever you program on day one will suck :-) 2015-11-09T20:35:06Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:35:20Z prxq: ryu0: what do you have in mind? 2015-11-09T20:35:22Z resttime: ryu0: Practical Common Lisp is a nice kickstart if you want write some things now in tandem with your other book. 2015-11-09T20:35:57Z ryu0: ultimately i was hoping to use CL to write a mud from scratch. i sure as hell am not going to do it in C. 2015-11-09T20:36:17Z ryu0: i read the entire ANSI C book before i actually wrote any C. :o 2015-11-09T20:36:27Z ryu0: my memory tends to be pretty good. 2015-11-09T20:37:22Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:37:39Z ryu0: prxq: well, i guess i could try using it do to write scripts. just not very motivated to do so yet. 2015-11-09T20:37:47Z ryu0: too used to using shell, awk, ... to do that. 2015-11-09T20:38:31Z ryu0: i like to understand most of what is available in a language before i use it for complex programs. 2015-11-09T20:38:47Z Bicyclidine: you could write incremental programs. 2015-11-09T20:39:00Z prxq: ryu0: that works better with small languages like C. 2015-11-09T20:39:05Z Bicyclidine: like, mud is a text based thing, right? right something that takes input and looks for words, then move up to ELIZA, and then etc 2015-11-09T20:39:11Z Bicyclidine: C is not small 2015-11-09T20:39:18Z axion: most of what is available is a lot more than most languages. i barely scratched the surface of Lisp after using it exclusively for 7 years 2015-11-09T20:39:21Z Bicyclidine: write something* 2015-11-09T20:39:46Z prxq: Bicyclidine: minus the standard lib it is small. 2015-11-09T20:39:50Z ryu0: Bicyclidine: correct. i've looked at the existing ones. most of them are pure C. 2015-11-09T20:39:52Z ryu0: and buggy as hell. 2015-11-09T20:39:54Z Bicyclidine: it's really not 2015-11-09T20:40:06Z ryu0: the people who made them didn't know what they were doing a lot of the time. 2015-11-09T20:40:15Z ryu0: so you sometimes have random memory bugs. 2015-11-09T20:40:25Z Bicyclidine: well, you won't have that problem, thankfully 2015-11-09T20:40:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:40:42Z ryu0: yea, i don't feel like playing memory detective for something like this. 2015-11-09T20:41:10Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T20:41:29Z ryu0: i may take some design ideas from existing muds, but i don't plan to use C. 2015-11-09T20:41:56Z Bicyclidine: anyway, i really do think you should just start writing, common lisp is big 2015-11-09T20:42:04Z axion: you may find #lispgames interesting 2015-11-09T20:42:24Z ryu0: i'll look into it. 2015-11-09T20:42:41Z Bicyclidine: usually you can just be like "hey, how do i do this" on the channel and somebody will be like oh you just use REVERSE-NEGATIVE-EVERYP-PPRINT with the :rampant key 2015-11-09T20:42:41Z axion: i second that. just dive in, and learn as you go. CL is huge 2015-11-09T20:42:51Z resttime: Hmmm, I need to work on reading through the Common Lisp HyperSpec or Common Lisp the Language 2nd ed. too. 2015-11-09T20:43:56Z Bicyclidine: reading standards is boring, just look up specific things when you need them 2015-11-09T20:44:26Z Bicyclidine: "hm, i want to do this weird thing with sequences. i should flip through the sequences chapter" 2015-11-09T20:44:57Z resttime: That's what I do currently hahaha, though I do like reading so I don't mind going through the whole thing at somepoint :) 2015-11-09T20:44:57Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: Why not just use NRECCDRMAKF. Much shorter than REVERSE-NEGATIVE-EVERYP-PPRINT. 2015-11-09T20:45:26Z ryu0: so i was looking at COND. it appears to be similar to an if-else if-else chain in C in that it finds the first test that is true, evaluates its 'body', and then stops. or, such. 2015-11-09T20:45:38Z Bicyclidine: i'm morally opposed to ECCD functions, they're not "lispy" imo 2015-11-09T20:45:45Z axion: PCL is good in that it gets you coding real-world examples as you learn. I started reading the first half of that in a day before i skipped to my own projects 2015-11-09T20:45:47Z Bicyclidine: ryu0: more or less exactly the same semantically, yes 2015-11-09T20:45:50Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:45:55Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: :) 2015-11-09T20:46:01Z ryu0: it's more capable obviously but 2015-11-09T20:46:06Z ryu0: it serves a similar purpose. 2015-11-09T20:46:17Z Bicyclidine: bit nicer to look at 2015-11-09T20:46:30Z Xach: one interesting twist is that if there are no forms after the test, the result of the test is returned. 2015-11-09T20:46:32Z pjb: jfe: you can implement DSL and use functional style, etc, even if you're only allowed to use functions or OO. See for examples: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 2015-11-09T20:46:38Z ryu0: agreed. it makes mapping inputs to certain values easier. 2015-11-09T20:46:51Z pjb: jfe: notice how http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#intelib is pure C++. 2015-11-09T20:47:11Z ryu0: like, converting something to a string. 2015-11-09T20:47:39Z Bicyclidine: if your conditions are just (eql thing 'foo) (eql thing 'bar) you can probably use case 2015-11-09T20:48:03Z ryu0: also, chapter 4 talked about using AND to test the types of an input before using something like oddp. 2015-11-09T20:48:18Z ryu0: (and (numberp x) (oddp x)) 2015-11-09T20:48:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:48:23Z ryu0: to avoid a runtime error? 2015-11-09T20:48:28Z ryu0: if x isn't a number. 2015-11-09T20:48:35Z Bicyclidine: yeah, pretty much. 2015-11-09T20:48:45Z ryu0: that reminded of null pointer checks in C... 2015-11-09T20:48:48Z pjb: zwdr: Strangely enough, I find it easier to implement compilers to virtual machines than pure interpreters. 2015-11-09T20:48:51Z Bicyclidine: and is short circuiting, evaluates left to right, stops on the first falsehood, etc. same as && 2015-11-09T20:48:55Z ryu0: if(p != NULL && p...) 2015-11-09T20:49:11Z ryu0: or such. 2015-11-09T20:49:18Z Bicyclidine: why do we call that short-circuiting, anyway? what's that have to do with circuits 2015-11-09T20:49:50Z pjb: zwdr: Check http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Compilation 2015-11-09T20:49:51Z axion: never heard that...i just call it a special form 2015-11-09T20:49:59Z zwdr: pjb: well, I'm just getting started with that stuff, so yea, might be like that 2015-11-09T20:50:04Z zwdr: thanks for the link :3 2015-11-09T20:50:12Z ryu0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-circuit_evaluation 2015-11-09T20:50:14Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T20:50:33Z Bicyclidine: mccarthy, heh. 2015-11-09T20:50:35Z pjb: zwdr: notably https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/QMakibYYZRg/fgQulr5b4BwJ and https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/HqV4B5aoj-c/yI4_av1C6KUJ 2015-11-09T20:50:53Z Bicyclidine: no etymology, though. jerks. 2015-11-09T20:51:31Z pjb: zwdr: now, if you're using lisp, you can implement your toy language as a translator to CL. It's easier to target such a high level VM as CL than a lower level one. 2015-11-09T20:51:59Z ryu0: pjb: because more instructions are required? 2015-11-09T20:52:09Z zwdr: yea, thought about reader macros pjb :3 2015-11-09T20:52:33Z pjb: zwdr: you can consider reader macros after the fact, and just start with functions and macros. 2015-11-09T20:52:52Z zwdr: mhmm, yea that makes sense 2015-11-09T20:52:57Z pjb: But yes, use reader macros if you need a specific syntax. 2015-11-09T20:53:42Z pjb: zwdr: two more examples: BASIC: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/basic/basic.lisp and Brainfuck: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/brainfuck/index.html 2015-11-09T20:54:15Z zwdr: nice, thanks 2015-11-09T20:54:27Z ryu0: i wonder if anyone developer a LUA interpreter for CL. :P 2015-11-09T20:54:31Z ryu0: developed. 2015-11-09T20:54:52Z pjb: ryu0: check: http://cliki.net/programming%20language 2015-11-09T20:54:57Z dlowe: That seems kinda useless once you actually learn CL 2015-11-09T20:55:19Z dlowe: I guess if you wanted to provide it as an extension language to others 2015-11-09T20:55:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:56:00Z pjb: ryu0: I started something about lua, but so far I only have a scanner: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/languages/lua 2015-11-09T20:56:00Z Bicyclidine: what optimization does this do other than making the jumps properly constant time 2015-11-09T20:56:12Z Bicyclidine: in brainfuck i mean 2015-11-09T20:58:23Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:59:16Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-11-09T20:59:50Z pjb: Bicyclidine: yes, nothing more (yet). I had more ambitions :-) 2015-11-09T21:00:22Z Bicyclidine: i can tell. writing a lisp must be unpleasant 2015-11-09T21:01:02Z Natch left #lisp 2015-11-09T21:01:23Z pjb: Bicyclidine: not at all. 2015-11-09T21:01:37Z Bicyclidine: in brainfuck? 2015-11-09T21:01:47Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:01:55Z pjb: Well, you would write it in lisp, compile to brainfuck, and bootstrap itself :-) 2015-11-09T21:02:51Z pjb: A CL implementation that's easily retargettable (like, we hope, SICL), could be ported to brainfuck ;-) 2015-11-09T21:03:32Z pjb: mordocai: support some kind of basic universal revenue. Then you'll have free time to write FOSS. 2015-11-09T21:04:58Z mordocai: pjb: Yep. All for that personally. Though truthfully, i'd probably still end up working because I like nice things... 2015-11-09T21:05:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:06:23Z pjb: mordocai: basically, without even thinking of taxing more, in countries like in Europe, we could get more than 1000 euro/month per person, in two parts: 1- "quantitative easing", ie. money creation in function of the human population and its life expectancy (because only humans are the reason for economic activity) This makes about 550 euro/month/person in Europe. 2- take the current taxes and the current subsidies of all kind, remove 2015-11-09T21:06:23Z pjb: everything and just apply a flat tax with a universal income of about 450 euro/month/person in Europe. 2015-11-09T21:06:50Z pjb: The only losers would be the banksters who couldn't profit from QEs. 2015-11-09T21:06:59Z pjb: But since they should be hung anyways… 2015-11-09T21:07:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:08:47Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T21:08:51Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:09:24Z pjb: dlowe: it's fucking trivial to call CL from C++! Just use libecl!!! 2015-11-09T21:09:37Z dlowe: pjb: um, like I said? 2015-11-09T21:09:50Z pjb: Well, you started with jperkin13: except for c++ integration 2015-11-09T21:09:56Z dlowe: pjb: calm the fuck down, eh? 2015-11-09T21:10:03Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:10:41Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:11:12Z oleo: omg, vect in maxima handles only 3 cartesian dims..... 2015-11-09T21:11:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T21:11:23Z oleo: no 4 dims not n dims..... 2015-11-09T21:11:25Z pjb: I'm not sure jperkin13 didn't left with the impression that integration of lisp with C++ wasn't easy. 2015-11-09T21:12:00Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:14:07Z Xach: It isn't easy. Suggesting it is is the domain of a trollish performance artist. 2015-11-09T21:14:30Z wtbrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-09T21:14:53Z Xach: I used to wonder if the damage inflicted was the result of a bizarre lost-in-translation sense of humor, but now I think it is just plain malice. 2015-11-09T21:15:45Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:16:59Z pjb: Calling CL from C or C++ is very easy with libecl. 2015-11-09T21:17:23Z pjb: Might be harder with sbcl, but I'm not even sure, IIRC, sbcl has call-ins. 2015-11-09T21:17:47Z Shinmera: SBCL has no .so variant. 2015-11-09T21:18:01Z pjb: Yes, so you have to compile your C or C++ in a .so 2015-11-09T21:20:05Z Ven__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T21:20:17Z Shinmera: Can't do with C++ because of name mangling -> have to write a C wrapper -> not easy, in the sense of not trivial. 2015-11-09T21:20:30Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T21:21:10Z pjb: Shinmera: we're talking of calling CL from C++, not calling C++ from CL. So you really only need one entry point into C++ which can be extern "C"{ … }. 2015-11-09T21:21:29Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:21:59Z Shinmera: You'll easily want to do both if you don't want to jump through loads of hoops. 2015-11-09T21:22:39Z pjb: Not necessarily. I would try to avoid going both way. This becomes quite complex wrt exception and condition handing… 2015-11-09T21:22:49Z pjb: handling 2015-11-09T21:22:49Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:23:02Z Shinmera: Which is why it's not easy. 2015-11-09T21:23:47Z pjb: It's easy to use a library without callbacks. It's harder to use a library with callbacks. Lispers are usually smart enough to avoid shoot themselves in the foot. 2015-11-09T21:23:50Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-09T21:23:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:24:11Z prxq: actually, it's mostly tedious, not really hard (imo) 2015-11-09T21:24:31Z Shinmera: Tedious is hard in my opinion. 2015-11-09T21:24:39Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:25:30Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T21:25:34Z mordocai: Definitely hard to keep motivation, especially if it is for a personal project. 2015-11-09T21:25:59Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:26:24Z prxq: the best thing for choosing a lisp project is to go grandiose. Like, "I want to do excell better". 2015-11-09T21:26:49Z prxq: (maybe a notch down :-) ) 2015-11-09T21:27:13Z mordocai: prxq: heh, my current one is writing a game with a similar complexity to dwarf fortress soo.... right there with you. 2015-11-09T21:27:37Z Bicyclidine: "I want to do VisiCalc better" 2015-11-09T21:28:01Z prxq: the trick is to say, "but i'll just do a prototype first, not worrying about speed and stuff". 2015-11-09T21:28:19Z mordocai: Yep. 2015-11-09T21:28:23Z prxq: and boom, hooked for life. 2015-11-09T21:29:52Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T21:30:09Z resttime: Agreed, a first iteration of a mini drawing application of mine was like 53 lines and the next being around 100-150 with more features. 2015-11-09T21:30:31Z resttime: Though granted, qtools does a lot of the heavy lifting, it's still nice. 2015-11-09T21:30:46Z mordocai is currently writing a "basic" roguelike as the start to his massive game. 2015-11-09T21:30:54Z mordocai: Going to be more than 150 lines though, even for version .1 :P 2015-11-09T21:30:57Z Shinmera wishes he had had Qtools before Parasol, but history made it be the other way around 2015-11-09T21:31:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:37:00Z xyh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-09T21:37:09Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T21:40:42Z pjfr33 joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:41:46Z pjfr33 left #lisp 2015-11-09T21:41:47Z dead_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:43:59Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T21:45:19Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:48:59Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:49:20Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-09T21:49:25Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T21:50:14Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-09T21:51:42Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T21:52:04Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-09T22:31:09Z pjb: Xach: none of the map-into are good. 2015-11-09T22:31:09Z LiamH: le4fy: np, thank Paul Graham 2015-11-09T22:32:16Z pjb: le4fy: And if the list contains form designating places, then you have the problem of run-time vs. compilation-time, and EVAL won't do. 2015-11-09T22:32:39Z dead_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T22:33:28Z pjb: le4fy: instead, you could have a list containing setters, and do (mapc (lambda (setter) (funcall setter 42)) list-of-setters) 2015-11-09T22:33:55Z pjb: le4fy: also, see: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2015-11-09T22:34:15Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-09T22:36:09Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:37:04Z le4fy: pjb: that is an option. Although I think it would be nicest to have a macro that expands to (setf form1 val form2 val form3 val ...) 2015-11-09T22:37:06Z ryu0: Are the documentation and apropos functions comparable to manpages for explaining standard C functions? 2015-11-09T22:38:14Z Xach: ryu0: no. 2015-11-09T22:38:41Z Xach: ryu0: the specification is the way to understand the standard CL functions, and it is easy to browse via the hyperspec. 2015-11-09T22:40:01Z Xach: the documentation function is good to get the docstring of a function. different people write docstrings differently. in some cases it's as good as reference documentation. 2015-11-09T22:40:02Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:40:09Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-09T22:40:19Z ryu0: Xach: how are they different then? they appear to serve a similar purpose of documenting things. 2015-11-09T22:40:22Z Xach: the apropos function is good for searching for symbols when you only know a part of the name. 2015-11-09T22:40:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: le4fy: this does that `(setf ,@(mapcan (lambda (x y) (list x y)) '(a b c) '(1 2 3))) 2015-11-09T22:40:40Z ryu0: so appropos is good for a form of code completion? 2015-11-09T22:40:54Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-09T22:41:16Z Xach: ryu0: the question wasn't "is the documentation function for getting function documentation?" but "comparable to manpages for explaining standard C functions" 2015-11-09T22:41:31Z Xach: For standard CL things, the standard is the thing to use. 2015-11-09T22:41:48Z Xach: apropos is not good for completion, it is good for interactive lookup at the repl. 2015-11-09T22:41:57Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-09T22:41:59Z le4fy: fiddlerwoaroof: yep, that's the allf macro LiamH pointed me to 2015-11-09T22:42:05Z Xach: if you need things in a form a program (like your text editor) could use, you'd have to use something like do-symbols instead. 2015-11-09T22:43:15Z ryu0: Xach: documentation function just seemed a bit like manpages in that it can be used to find out what something does. 2015-11-09T22:43:45Z Xach: ryu0: yes, they both ideally tell you something about what a function does 2015-11-09T22:44:20Z ryu0: jeez. so many things i had to use external tools for are integrated into CL instead. 2015-11-09T22:44:30Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:44:36Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-09T22:44:59Z Xach: i like using an external tool (a web browser) to look up stuff in the hyperspec. 2015-11-09T22:45:05Z Xach: some people do it within emacs 2015-11-09T22:45:05Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-09T22:45:35Z Xach: i also rarely use the DOCUMENTATION function...I'd usually rather M-. into source. I find the function cumbersome to type. I wonder if other people use it a lot. 2015-11-09T22:46:03Z Shinmera: I've actually never use it. I have ac-slime to show me the documentation as I type the function name. 2015-11-09T22:46:08Z Shinmera: *used 2015-11-09T22:46:14Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T22:46:25Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:46:42Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-09T22:46:48Z ryu0: reminds me of bash's help function. 2015-11-09T22:46:57Z ryu0: but, not quite the same. 2015-11-09T22:47:36Z xyh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.38/20151005122910]) 2015-11-09T22:48:55Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T22:49:44Z pjb: le4fy: it's not possible without a time machine. 2015-11-09T22:49:45Z ryu0: huh. i'm no expert, but the descriptions of set and setf seems to suggest the primary difference is set only works on global variables while setf works on the most recent instance of a variable. 2015-11-09T22:49:56Z ryu0: is this correct? 2015-11-09T22:49:59Z Bicyclidine: no 2015-11-09T22:50:00Z pillton: No. 2015-11-09T22:50:06Z ryu0: hmph. 2015-11-09T22:50:16Z Bicyclidine: set works on dynamic variables. setf works on pretty much anything you want, but you're thinking of lexical variables 2015-11-09T22:50:32Z Bicyclidine: for example, (setf (symbol-value x) y) is the same as (set x y) 2015-11-09T22:50:34Z pjb: ryu0: comparison operators are in the eyes of the beholder. 2015-11-09T22:50:39Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T22:50:56Z pjb: ryu0: cf. https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/8/cleqcmp.html 2015-11-09T22:50:57Z pjb: ;-) 2015-11-09T22:51:23Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158877#4 2015-11-09T22:51:31Z oleo: o/ 2015-11-09T22:51:53Z pjb: Xach: man pages are not the POSIX specification pages either! 2015-11-09T22:53:08Z pjb: ryu0: for programming use, there's APROPOS-LIST which does the same as APROPOS but without formatted output. 2015-11-09T22:53:16Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-09T22:53:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:53:40Z pillton: clhs 5.1.1 2015-11-09T22:53:40Z specbot: Overview of Places and Generalized Reference: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm 2015-11-09T22:53:54Z pjb: Notice that it's implementation dependant how the argument is processed. some implementations will use it case insensitively, some will allow regexps, etc. 2015-11-09T22:53:55Z pillton: ryu0: Have a look at clhs 5.1.1 2015-11-09T22:54:22Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:54:55Z pjb: ryu0: the dynamic variable can be local too: (let ((x 42)) (declare (special x)) (set 'x 33) x) #| --> 33 |# 2015-11-09T22:56:58Z ryu0: head scratcher. the documentation said set changes the symbol's value cell... 2015-11-09T22:57:19Z Bicyclidine: it does. the value cell is what dynamic binding deals with 2015-11-09T22:57:41Z ryu0: and gentle seemed to suggest the value cell is the value as a global variable... 2015-11-09T22:57:49Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-09T22:57:53Z Bicyclidine: that's one way to think of it 2015-11-09T22:58:11Z pjb: the special declaration essentially says that when we refer to a variable named by that symbol (in the given scope), then the value cell of the symbol shall be used. 2015-11-09T22:58:16Z ryu0: then is it incorrect then to say that set only works on global variables? 2015-11-09T22:58:28Z Bicyclidine: "global variable" isn't a real lisp concept, you shouldn't stick with it 2015-11-09T22:58:41Z ryu0: okay...? what do you call it then? 2015-11-09T22:58:42Z pjb: ryu0: the thing is that it's meaningless. 2015-11-09T22:58:46Z Bicyclidine: dynamic variable 2015-11-09T22:59:01Z pjb: ryu0: what matters is WHEN the _dynamic_ variable is bound and accessed. 2015-11-09T22:59:03Z Bicyclidine: (let ((x 42)) (declare (special x)) ...) is like (let ((old (symbol-value 'x))) (set 'x 42) ... (set 'x old)), as a first approximation 2015-11-09T22:59:14Z pjb: ryu0: for _lexical_ variables, it's WHERE it is bound and accessed. 2015-11-09T22:59:46Z ryu0: oh, is this about dynamic and lexical scoping which the books hasn't yet explained? 2015-11-09T22:59:49Z pjb: ryu0: notably, with dynamic variables, each thread may have its own binding, or they may share a global binding. 2015-11-09T22:59:59Z Bicyclidine: it is about dynamic and lexical scoping, yes 2015-11-09T23:00:50Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:01:13Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-09T23:01:32Z Xach wonders about dramatic variables 2015-11-09T23:02:07Z pjb: They have that in the Shakespeare programming language. 2015-11-09T23:02:11Z ryu0: oh, no wonder. i'm used to thinking about lexical scoping. that appears to be what C uses... 2015-11-09T23:02:13Z Bicyclidine: only change value when it would cause the most tension 2015-11-09T23:02:16Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:02:18Z Bicyclidine: C is lexical, yes 2015-11-09T23:02:37Z pjb: Called Dramatis Personae. 2015-11-09T23:02:50Z Bicyclidine: most lisp programs mostly use lexical scoping, and dynamic scoping more occasionally 2015-11-09T23:04:07Z ryu0: hm. i don't quite follow with this places / reference thing. i've only seen setf used with symbol names. 2015-11-09T23:04:17Z ryu0: i'll look into it later i suppose. 2015-11-09T23:04:46Z ryu0: ... idea. 2015-11-09T23:04:46Z pjb: (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (setf (car list) 0) list) #| --> (0 2 3) |# 2015-11-09T23:05:19Z pjb: (let ((i -1) (list (list 1 2 3))) (setf (elt list (incf i)) i (elt list (incf i)) i) list) #| --> (0 1 3) |# 2015-11-09T23:05:21Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-09T23:05:31Z ryu0: so, setf can be used to modify a specific entry a list? 2015-11-09T23:05:42Z Bicyclidine: yes 2015-11-09T23:05:42Z pjb: If the list is mutable, yes. 2015-11-09T23:05:49Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:05:54Z Bicyclidine: setf is a general macro that can do pretty much whatever you want 2015-11-09T23:05:54Z pjb: Notice I didn't use quote, but list. 2015-11-09T23:05:57Z ryu0: of course... 2015-11-09T23:07:52Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:07:53Z ryu0: hm. describe is helpful. 2015-11-09T23:08:23Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-09T23:08:37Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:09:45Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:10:18Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T23:10:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ryu0: inspect is also nice 2015-11-09T23:11:14Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-09T23:11:19Z ryu0: hm... sbcl says LET is a special operator. i was under the impression it was a macro. huh. 2015-11-09T23:11:40Z ryu0: clhs let 2015-11-09T23:11:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 2015-11-09T23:12:04Z ryu0: clhs special operator 2015-11-09T23:12:10Z Bicyclidine: you could do it as a macro in terms of lambda, it would just be a bit of a pain with respect to declarations 2015-11-09T23:12:13Z Bicyclidine: clhs special operator/g 2015-11-09T23:12:17Z ryu0: okay... 2015-11-09T23:12:24Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-09T23:12:24Z pjb: An implementation could define it as a macro. 2015-11-09T23:12:34Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-09T23:12:44Z Bicyclidine: whatever. "special operator" basically means "the implementation can do whatever the hell it wants to make it work" 2015-11-09T23:13:03Z ryu0: clhs operator 2015-11-09T23:13:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for operator. 2015-11-09T23:13:08Z ryu0: clhs operator/g 2015-11-09T23:13:08Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for operator/g. 2015-11-09T23:13:11Z ryu0: o_o 2015-11-09T23:13:16Z Bicyclidine: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#special_operator 2015-11-09T23:13:38Z Bicyclidine: though i guess it's mainly in special form 2015-11-09T23:13:39Z Bicyclidine: "special form n. a list, other than a macro form, which is a form with special syntax or special evaluation rules or both, possibly manipulating the evaluation environment or control flow or both. The first element of a special form is a special operator. " 2015-11-09T23:13:54Z Bicyclidine: yolo, etc 2015-11-09T23:14:11Z pjb: ryu0: The distinction between macros and special operator serves only two purposes: 1- it allows to give a concise specifications of all those operators (macros are defined in terms of special operators and functions, only special operators are "primitive" in terms of specification). 2- it allows conforming programs to perform code walking of sexps, ie, to "understand" and expression by only knowing about the semantics of the special 2015-11-09T23:14:11Z pjb: operators. 2015-11-09T23:14:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:14:21Z Bicyclidine: you said you were reading a book, it will probably go over this 2015-11-09T23:14:34Z ryu0: perhaps. 2015-11-09T23:14:41Z ryu0: i just finished chapter 5. 2015-11-09T23:14:49Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:15:18Z mordocai: You were reading http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ right? 2015-11-09T23:15:30Z ryu0: gentle, dover edition. 2015-11-09T23:15:37Z ryu0: yes. 2015-11-09T23:16:54Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-09T23:16:58Z ryu0: sexps? 2015-11-09T23:17:22Z ryu0: oh... 2015-11-09T23:17:25Z pjb: Symbolic Expressions. 2015-11-09T23:17:27Z ryu0: symbolic expresions. 2015-11-09T23:17:31Z ryu0 facepalms. 2015-11-09T23:20:23Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-11-09T23:21:50Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-09T23:24:18Z ryu0: uh... is this tutorial wrong? it calls basic arithmetic functions 'operators' here: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/lisp_operators.htm 2015-11-09T23:24:28Z Bicyclidine: no 2015-11-09T23:24:29Z p_l: yes 2015-11-09T23:24:36Z p_l: well, kinda 2015-11-09T23:24:39Z Bicyclidine: they're just normal operators, not special ones 2015-11-09T23:24:42Z p_l: Lisp has no "operators" 2015-11-09T23:24:55Z p_l: just functions. There's nothing special about +, -, etc. 2015-11-09T23:25:03Z ryu0: the only operator i could find in the hyperspec was 2015-11-09T23:25:06Z ryu0: special operator. 2015-11-09T23:25:15Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/operator defines "operator" for cl. 2015-11-09T23:25:22Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T23:25:31Z ryu0: p_l: other than it being a builtin function? 2015-11-09T23:25:59Z p_l: ryu0: function included in standard in package CL, yes. But you can have code where + will refer to a different function 2015-11-09T23:26:32Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:26:35Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T23:27:20Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:27:34Z pjb: ryu0: So all the functions are operators, just like all the macros and all the special operators. Those are all operators. 2015-11-09T23:27:54Z ryu0: so operator in CL is a catchall for anything that operates on data? 2015-11-09T23:28:00Z pjb: ryu0: the operator, is what is put in first position in the lists that denote operator application. 2015-11-09T23:28:05Z pjb: ryu0: yes. 2015-11-09T23:28:09Z pjb: (operator argument…) 2015-11-09T23:31:48Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T23:33:05Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:33:23Z ryu0: oh boy... so many definitions. heh 2015-11-09T23:39:06Z ryu0: wow! setf can use the lists in function arguments to modify data from the caller's scope... 2015-11-09T23:39:49Z dbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:40:26Z le4fy: ryu0: example? 2015-11-09T23:40:55Z ryu0: (defun foo (x) (setf (car x) 123)) 2015-11-09T23:41:24Z ryu0: (setf x '(12)) 2015-11-09T23:41:31Z ryu0: (foo x) 2015-11-09T23:41:34Z ryu0: x 2015-11-09T23:41:36Z ryu0: or such. 2015-11-09T23:41:39Z le4fy: ah, yes 2015-11-09T23:42:02Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-09T23:42:14Z jlarocco: i don't think that's much different than many languages 2015-11-09T23:42:33Z le4fy: python has this 2015-11-09T23:42:38Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-09T23:42:48Z jlarocco: void foo(int array[]) { array[0] = 123; } 2015-11-09T23:42:56Z ryu0: that's C. 2015-11-09T23:43:05Z jlarocco: that was C 2015-11-09T23:43:11Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:43:21Z ryu0: but same as if it were declared as a pointer. 2015-11-09T23:44:13Z jlarocco: i admit C is probably a bad example to use when discussing "but other languages do it that way..." 2015-11-09T23:44:27Z pjb: ryu0: this doesn't work because '(12) returns a literal immutable list. 2015-11-09T23:45:05Z ryu0: oh? 2015-11-09T23:45:05Z le4fy: depends what technique the lang uses to pass args (reference, value, etc) 2015-11-09T23:45:05Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-09T23:45:06Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-09T23:45:50Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-09T23:45:50Z ryu0: pjb: really? it works on SBCL. 2015-11-09T23:46:02Z pjb: le4fy: indeed. But in lisp all the values that are not numbers or characters, are references. So while the arguments are passed by value, references are actually passed in general. 2015-11-09T23:46:16Z pjb: ryu0: it could as well launch a missile onto your geolocation. 2015-11-09T23:46:23Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-09T23:46:31Z ryu0: ??? 2015-11-09T23:46:42Z pjb: it's not conforming. 2015-11-09T23:46:43Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-09T23:46:46Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-09T23:47:04Z pjb: Worse: quoted objects can be coalesced in the same compilation unit. 2015-11-09T23:47:20Z ryu0: coalesced? combined into one reference? 2015-11-09T23:47:26Z le4fy: pjb: right, names of symbols are passed, and they are looked up in a table w/ the given context for values.. correct? 2015-11-09T23:47:51Z pjb: ryu0: that means that if there's another instance of '(12) in the same file or another file compiled in the same compilation unit, then they can become a single object. So when you modify one occurence, you are modifying the other too, since it's the same! 2015-11-09T23:48:12Z pjb: le4fy: name of symbols are strings. Strings are passed by reference. 2015-11-09T23:48:33Z pjb: (symbol-name 'hello) #| --> "HELLO" |# 2015-11-09T23:48:38Z le4fy: ok, cool 2015-11-09T23:48:41Z ryu0: joy. so in other words, quoted objects are supposed to be immutable? 2015-11-09T23:48:51Z pjb: ryu0: yes. 2015-11-09T23:48:57Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-09T23:49:59Z ryu0: sounds like how C compilers tend to store only one copy of a string literal and just hand out pointers to this one location if it is used repeatedly... 2015-11-09T23:50:18Z Bicyclidine: yeah, and altering stuff in the static section also wouldn't go well 2015-11-09T23:50:19Z remi`bd: well, it’s exactly that 2015-11-09T23:50:45Z Bicyclidine: it "works" in sbcl, but you could have, like, a function that returns a list ending with '(12), and then another '(12) somewhere 2015-11-09T23:50:58Z Bicyclidine: and then if you ran foo on the second '(12), it would fuck up the first function's return values 2015-11-09T23:51:13Z Bicyclidine: i have written programs with this bug and it sucks 2015-11-09T23:51:21Z ryu0: my code would have been fine if i had done (list 12) instead? 2015-11-09T23:51:26Z Bicyclidine: yup 2015-11-09T23:51:47Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-09T23:52:05Z pjb: Yes, LIST returns a fresh list (newly consed). VECTOR returns a fresh vector. 2015-11-09T23:52:16Z ryu0: not yet to vectors. 2015-11-09T23:52:27Z ryu0: but i assume they are similar to C arrays? 2015-11-09T23:52:39Z pjb: with more features. 2015-11-09T23:52:56Z remi`bd: the main being buffer overflow checking \o/ 2015-11-09T23:53:22Z ryu0: i assume that is a feature you can turn off when you wish to optimize? 2015-11-09T23:53:25Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-09T23:54:07Z remi`bd: don’t know, probably not a good idea 2015-11-09T23:54:18Z Bicyclidine: yeah, you can usually disable bounds checks. 2015-11-09T23:54:20Z ryu0: in general, i would agree. 2015-11-09T23:54:39Z ryu0: but it could be useful in some cases if going out of bounds is not possible. 2015-11-09T23:54:53Z ryu0: like, the indexing is constrained by something naturally. 2015-11-09T23:55:12Z remi`bd: a smart compiler might optimize it without help 2015-11-09T23:55:22Z ryu0: true. 2015-11-09T23:55:23Z Bicyclidine: yeah. it would usually be nicer to have the index variable be constrained by type, either from an annotation or from the compiler being smart 2015-11-09T23:55:45Z ryu0: one use case i was thinking of was lookup tables. 2015-11-09T23:56:08Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:01:35Z remi`bd: I hope most optimizing compilers would optimize at least common idioms like (dotimes (i (length v)) …) or (loop for i across v do …) 2015-11-10T00:01:51Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:02:01Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T00:02:43Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:02:57Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:04:21Z jurov: use embezzling compiler, like gcc 5 :D 2015-11-10T00:05:12Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:05:14Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:05:26Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T00:08:35Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:11:05Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T00:11:21Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:12:37Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:14:51Z ryu0: Bicyclidine: have you considered using GNU C extensions in your C macros? 2015-11-10T00:15:18Z Bicyclidine: i don't remember any of them being enough, really 2015-11-10T00:15:24Z Bicyclidine: i could use m4 or something, but ehhhhh. 2015-11-10T00:15:29Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T00:16:27Z ryu0: Bicyclidine: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Statement-Exprs.html 2015-11-10T00:16:35Z ryu0: this is an interesting one. 2015-11-10T00:17:43Z ryu0: i first encountered it when looking in glibc headers. it's used to implement some macros like strdupa 2015-11-10T00:17:46Z Bicyclidine: i mean, what i had in mind was using conditionals and stuff. 2015-11-10T00:17:47Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:18:11Z ryu0: huh. 2015-11-10T00:21:22Z ryu0: huh. interesting. CL uses the same comment character as some assembler languages i've used. 2015-11-10T00:22:22Z Bicyclidine: might not be a coincidence, i think ; being comment dates from lisp 1.5 2015-11-10T00:26:41Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:26:52Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T00:28:21Z ryu0: Oh. the glossary defines the value cell beyond what i thought it was. 2015-11-10T00:28:43Z ryu0: says it holds the global LEXICAL variable, or the currently accessible DYNAMIC variable. 2015-11-10T00:29:09Z ryu0: in other words, the contents of the value cell depends on the current scoping? 2015-11-10T00:29:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:29:14Z holycow joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:30:09Z Bicyclidine: hang on, what? global lexical variables? 2015-11-10T00:30:27Z ryu0: "A cell in the internal representation of a symbol where Lisp keeps the value of the global lexical variable (or the currently accessible dynamic variable) named by that symbol." 2015-11-10T00:30:44Z Bicyclidine: Is this cltl2? 2015-11-10T00:30:50Z ryu0: that's what my book's glossary says about uh... 2015-11-10T00:30:57Z Bicyclidine: Oh, gentle? 2015-11-10T00:30:59Z ryu0: value cell. 2015-11-10T00:31:01Z ryu0: yes. 2015-11-10T00:31:09Z Bicyclidine: Yeah, that's a bit old. CLHS reads as follows: "value cell n. Trad. (of a symbol) The place which holds the value, if any, of the dynamic variable named by that symbol, and which is accessed by symbol-value. See cell. " 2015-11-10T00:31:27Z Bicyclidine: "the currently accessible dynamic variable" is right, though. 2015-11-10T00:31:51Z ryu0: eh? so what does it mean in lexical scoping then? 2015-11-10T00:31:55Z ryu0: it's now unused? 2015-11-10T00:31:55Z Bicyclidine: Nothing. 2015-11-10T00:32:11Z Bicyclidine: Value cells don't matter to lexically scoped variables at all. 2015-11-10T00:32:21Z ryu0: o_O 2015-11-10T00:32:27Z ryu0: i have to test that. 2015-11-10T00:32:47Z Bicyclidine: Sure. (defvar x 19) (let ((x 4)) x) => 4 2015-11-10T00:33:26Z ryu0: uh... 2015-11-10T00:33:52Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:33:54Z ryu0: (defvar x 1) (defun foo nil x) (foo) -> 1 2015-11-10T00:34:02Z ryu0: ??? 2015-11-10T00:34:05Z Bicyclidine: yeah, sorry, that's not right, defvar makes it globally special. 2015-11-10T00:34:26Z ryu0: i'll try it with setf next. 2015-11-10T00:34:37Z Bicyclidine: (setf (symbol-value 'x) 19) (let ((x 4)) x) => 4 2015-11-10T00:34:42Z ryu0: same thing. 2015-11-10T00:34:44Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-10T00:34:44Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:34:53Z Bicyclidine: well, now that you've done defvar x, x is special. 2015-11-10T00:35:00Z Bicyclidine: meaning it's interpreted as a dynamic variable. 2015-11-10T00:35:06Z Bicyclidine: my mistake. 2015-11-10T00:35:07Z ryu0: oh -_- 2015-11-10T00:35:50Z ryu0: it appears to still be correct. perhaps the terminology is just different now? 2015-11-10T00:35:52Z Bicyclidine: (defun foo () y) (foo) => unbound variable 2015-11-10T00:36:18Z Bicyclidine: even if you do (set 'y 4) first 2015-11-10T00:36:19Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:36:30Z Bicyclidine: ... 2015-11-10T00:36:31Z ryu0: really. let me try that. 2015-11-10T00:36:38Z Bicyclidine: no, hang on. the compiler is being too helpful. 2015-11-10T00:36:44Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:37:02Z ryu0: i do get a warning about an undefined variable but 2015-11-10T00:37:06Z ryu0: it works w/o errors. 2015-11-10T00:37:06Z Bicyclidine: if you do (set 'y 4) and then (defun foo () y), the compiler warns that there's no (lexical) variable named y, so it compiles code to use the value cell instead. 2015-11-10T00:37:21Z Bicyclidine: but it will do that without the set too. 2015-11-10T00:37:36Z ryu0: really. i'll try that too. 2015-11-10T00:37:48Z Bicyclidine: (defun foo () z) => WARNING, (foo) => ERROR 2015-11-10T00:37:53Z ryu0: bzzt. i get an unbound variable error then. 2015-11-10T00:38:02Z cagmz quit 2015-11-10T00:38:04Z ryu0: if i don't set its value cell. 2015-11-10T00:38:18Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it probably still compiles code to use the dynamic value. 2015-11-10T00:38:50Z ryu0: so in lexical scoping, the value cell appears to be usable as a global variable... 2015-11-10T00:38:54Z Bicyclidine: No, no. 2015-11-10T00:38:59Z ryu0: or no? 2015-11-10T00:39:13Z Bicyclidine: The compiler is making all our "foo" functions use dynamic scoping for the variable, because there's no lexical variable. 2015-11-10T00:39:26Z ryu0: oh, it only APPEARS to be global? 2015-11-10T00:39:44Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T00:39:51Z Bicyclidine: No, it is, because we're using dynamic scoping and the global value cell. I have a better example, just a moment. 2015-11-10T00:40:14Z Bicyclidine: Hopefully you haven't used w yet. Try (set 'w 23) (let ((w 9)) (values w (symbol-value 'w))) 2015-11-10T00:41:02Z ryu0: Bicyclidine: so let me get this straight. it uses the most recent dynamic variable. it could come from either the top level, the caller, etc? 2015-11-10T00:41:17Z Bicyclidine: "it"? 2015-11-10T00:41:23Z ryu0: the value cell. 2015-11-10T00:41:32Z ryu0: where it got its value from. 2015-11-10T00:41:35Z Bicyclidine: Yes, the most recent in time. 2015-11-10T00:41:51Z ryu0: it could be top level, but it could be from anywhere. is that about right? 2015-11-10T00:42:06Z Bicyclidine: yeah. 2015-11-10T00:42:20Z Bicyclidine: like i said earlier, binding a dynamic variable basically means setting the value cell, and then later setting it back to what it was before. 2015-11-10T00:42:42Z ryu0: does CL do that automatically? 2015-11-10T00:42:47Z Xach: yes. 2015-11-10T00:42:49Z Bicyclidine: it's definitional, yeah 2015-11-10T00:42:52Z Xach: regardless of how a scope is exited. 2015-11-10T00:43:10Z Xach: an error does not inhibit setting the value back. 2015-11-10T00:43:12Z Bicyclidine: This lets you do, like, (let ((*print-base* 7)) (print 23891)), and then print knows that the dynamic *print-base* variable is 7, even though this is not apparent lexically in the definition of print. 2015-11-10T00:43:42Z ryu0: so that's why it's not truely a global variable. 2015-11-10T00:43:58Z Bicyclidine: Um, depends on your frame of mind, I guess. 2015-11-10T00:44:27Z Xach: special variables introduced via defvar and defparameter are global. 2015-11-10T00:44:36Z ryu0: Bicyclidine: then could a dynamic variable be thought of as a variable potentially from another lexical context? 2015-11-10T00:44:43Z ryu0: or something. 2015-11-10T00:44:48Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:45:05Z ryu0: bah. i'm probably not making sense. 2015-11-10T00:45:21Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i'm not sure what you mean. 2015-11-10T00:45:27Z Xach: I found https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html helped me understand it a bit better, back in the day. 2015-11-10T00:45:30Z phf: anybody know easy way to make paredit-*-barf-sexp consider #p to be part of "..."? 2015-11-10T00:45:32Z Bicyclidine: don't sweat it, everyone has problems with this at some point. 2015-11-10T00:45:41Z ryu0: i've only ever used lexical scoping. 2015-11-10T00:46:21Z Bicyclidine: that's what lisp uses most of the time. without defvar and defparameter and special, your lets and all function parameters are lexical. 2015-11-10T00:46:44Z Bicyclidine: you can think of dynamic variables as an occasionally useful extension, i think 2015-11-10T00:48:59Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T00:49:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you think of processes as functions, environment variables sort of work like dynamic variables 2015-11-10T00:50:54Z phf: i figured out how to make it not add whitespace when you type #p"", you add a function to paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates, which checks for looking-back "#p", but i don't see similar mechanism for barf. i guess it's not just #p but also #. followed by a form. barfing eats #. separately from form. annoying 2015-11-10T00:51:11Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-10T00:51:29Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:52:19Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T00:52:19Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-10T00:55:49Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-10T00:56:10Z phf: oh that requires a custom forward-sexp-function, i'm not sure i'm ready fo rthat level of commitment, unless somebody has a battle tested version of one.. 2015-11-10T00:56:30Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:01:24Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:04:35Z ryu0: so, lexical scoping only searches outward from the place where the variable is referenced... it can never access its callers variables unless they are passed as arguments because it has no knowledge of that lexical context... 2015-11-10T01:04:55Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T01:06:03Z ryu0: it appears with dynamic scoping it can access the most recently defined variable... i'm guessing it's called dynamic because references are resolved at runtime. 2015-11-10T01:08:16Z pjb: It would be difficult to optimize (dotimes (i (length v)) …) because the length of v can change inside the loop (either modified by the body, or by another thread). 2015-11-10T01:08:45Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:08:52Z pjb: ryu0: that's why you definitely do not want to optimize out checks. 2015-11-10T01:09:35Z ryu0: is the reason there's no global variables in CL because there's no global lexical context? 2015-11-10T01:09:44Z ryu0: that appears to be the case... but... 2015-11-10T01:09:45Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:09:58Z ryu0: i'm not positive. 2015-11-10T01:12:00Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-11-10T01:12:00Z pjb: ryu0: dynamic or lexical binding is orthogonal to local or global. 2015-11-10T01:12:47Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:12:53Z pjb: There are global lexical bindings in CL, only they're not for variable (define-symbol-macro defines a global lexical binding, and can be used to construct the notion of global lexical variable in CL). 2015-11-10T01:13:34Z pjb: ryu0: check: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/4VyopdWcFI4/1sDQU-3H8VgJ 2015-11-10T01:13:36Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:13:40Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:13:55Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:13:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:14:00Z ryu0: then what did they mean when i was told that there aren't any global variables? 2015-11-10T01:15:47Z pjb: phf: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150588 2015-11-10T01:16:11Z pjb: ryu0: defvar and defparameter define global variables. 2015-11-10T01:16:19Z pjb: global dynamic variables. 2015-11-10T01:16:40Z pjb: There are no standard operator to define global lexical variables, but you can define a macro to do that using define-symbol-macro. 2015-11-10T01:16:56Z pjb: there are libraries with such macros called defglobal or deflexical. 2015-11-10T01:18:26Z Xach: ryu0: who is "they"? 2015-11-10T01:18:30Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:18:33Z pjb: ryu0: for example: https://github.com/lmj/global-vars/blob/master/global-vars.lisp#L66 2015-11-10T01:19:09Z pjb: https://github.com/lmj/global-vars/blob/master/global-vars.lisp#L129 uses define-symbol-macro. 2015-11-10T01:22:06Z ryu0: Bicyclidine "global variable" isn't a real lisp concept, you shouldn't stick with it 2015-11-10T01:22:07Z lisse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T01:22:14Z ryu0: -_-. i misread it. 2015-11-10T01:22:42Z ryu0: Xach: ^ this is what i was referring to. 2015-11-10T01:22:51Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:22:52Z ryu0: but, it appears i misread it looking it back in my logs. 2015-11-10T01:24:34Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T01:24:48Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:25:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T01:27:04Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:28:53Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T01:29:29Z ryu0: pjb: let me see if i understand this. CL first tries to find a reference to a variable via lexical scoping. then it tries dynamic scoping (the value cell)? 2015-11-10T01:29:33Z White_Flame: ryu0: symbols are effectively "global". However, the value bound to the symbol is dependent on context & declartion 2015-11-10T01:30:07Z White_Flame: the decision to reference lexical vs dynamic scope is done at compile-time 2015-11-10T01:30:15Z White_Flame: (at least in practice, not sure if the spec mandates it) 2015-11-10T01:30:55Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T01:31:07Z ryu0: is there some CL feature to tell which scoping was used? 2015-11-10T01:31:27Z White_Flame: that'd be part of a code walker, and I don't believe there's anything standard there 2015-11-10T01:31:37Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-10T01:31:54Z White_Flame: there are some notions of an "environment object" that will tell, for instance, macro expanders about the environment it's currently being expanded in 2015-11-10T01:32:03Z White_Flame: but those are defined as being implementation-dependent 2015-11-10T01:32:38Z White_Flame: but this is also why dynamic variables have *earmuffs*, to keep them visually distinct 2015-11-10T01:32:54Z ryu0: is that just a naming convention? 2015-11-10T01:33:07Z White_Flame: yes, the lisp environment doesn't pay attention to the asterisks 2015-11-10T01:33:39Z ryu0: hm... 2015-11-10T01:33:52Z White_Flame: I have some code, where I changed from lexical or parameter-passed values, to being held in a dynamic variable, and kept the same variable name without adding asterisks. It's juggling flaming kittens at that point 2015-11-10T01:33:55Z ryu0: reading that mail pjb linked me to, i'm pondering a situation... 2015-11-10T01:34:06Z ryu0: it says let will do a dynamic binding if... 2015-11-10T01:34:21Z ryu0: the variable is a special variable... hm. 2015-11-10T01:34:50Z ryu0: ah, so anything defined with defvar will be dynamically scoped? 2015-11-10T01:34:59Z White_Flame: right. (defvar *x*), (defparameter *x*), (declare (special *x*)) , all let the compiler know that a variable is dynamically scoped 2015-11-10T01:35:00Z pjb: That is, if the symbol naming the variable has been declared special. 2015-11-10T01:35:34Z White_Flame: yes, it all hinges on declaring the symbol special. the actual variable is just a "slot" somewhere 2015-11-10T01:35:56Z pjb: ryu0: and since CL doesn't provide operators to know if a symbol is special, or to remove the special status of a symbol, we have a problem, that we solve by using the convention of using *stars* around the name of special symbols. 2015-11-10T01:36:08Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:36:21Z ryu0: then what may i ask happens if you define a function that uses the same variable name before it is known to be special? 2015-11-10T01:36:34Z ryu0: in its argument list or a let form within it. 2015-11-10T01:36:38Z pjb: Notably for global special symbols. (For local special, it would be less of a problem, since a local special declaration is not sticky, only the global ones). 2015-11-10T01:36:52Z ryu0: would it be lexical in that case? 2015-11-10T01:36:58Z White_Flame: ryu0: some lisps will handle (defun x () (setf foo 3)) without a warning, but it will default to regarding FOO as special 2015-11-10T01:37:00Z pjb: ryu0: it's a problem. Probably. 2015-11-10T01:37:19Z White_Flame: ryu0: argument lists & let do the same thing; they crate a new dynamic binding 2015-11-10T01:37:26Z pjb: ryu0: but since implementation could recompile the function later, it could produce a semantic difference. 2015-11-10T01:37:33Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-10T01:37:50Z White_Flame: (defun x (*standard-output*) (format t "hello~%")) will dynamically bind the standard output during the function call 2015-11-10T01:37:56Z pjb: In general, when you modify something, you should recompile the code that depends on it. 2015-11-10T01:38:50Z pjb: (defun f (&optional (*standard-output* *standard-output*)) (format t "hello~%")) (f) is a often seen pattern. 2015-11-10T01:39:30Z White_Flame: in these cases, (with-output-to-string (str) (x str)) will cause the output of format t to be captured into the string str 2015-11-10T01:39:41Z White_Flame: as a usable example 2015-11-10T01:39:42Z ryu0: but, if the function shadows the outside reference, does it matter if is lexically or dynamicly scoped? 2015-11-10T01:39:45Z ryu0: it is 2015-11-10T01:39:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T01:39:55Z pjb: White_Flame: here, str is a STREAM not a STRING! 2015-11-10T01:40:00Z White_Flame: yes 2015-11-10T01:40:08Z White_Flame: captured into the returned string 2015-11-10T01:40:24Z pjb: ryu0: the difference is what happens WHEN you call the function. 2015-11-10T01:40:40Z pjb: ryu0: remeber dynamic = time = when. lexical = space = where. 2015-11-10T01:40:47Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-10T01:40:56Z pjb: format uses *standard-output* WHEN it is called. 2015-11-10T01:41:02Z White_Flame: ryu0: if it's a lexical variable, then its effects are private to the lexical scope. If it's a dynamic variable, then anything you call in that scope will see the newly bound value of the variable 2015-11-10T01:41:09Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-11-10T01:41:13Z White_Flame: even if you don't pass it around 2015-11-10T01:41:24Z ryu0: that could be a problem. 2015-11-10T01:41:35Z White_Flame: (defvar *x* 3) (defun getx () *x*) (let ((*x* 2)) (getx)) -> 2 2015-11-10T01:41:43Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:41:55Z White_Flame: so getx just accesses *x*, but the value bound to *x* within that let scope will return 2, not 3 2015-11-10T01:41:58Z pjb: That's why in general you use lexical variables. But using dynamic variables is also useful when you need it. 2015-11-10T01:42:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:42:17Z White_Flame: Dynamic variables are very useful as thread-local storage 2015-11-10T01:42:19Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:42:27Z White_Flame: and other side-band context which you don't want to continually pass around 2015-11-10T01:43:19Z White_Flame: lots of connectivity libraries, for instance, have the socket instance in a dynamic variable. The inner routines then can just access its current value and go with it, instead of it always being passed in 2015-11-10T01:44:19Z pjb: Well, even when you use dynamic variables, you end up defining also parameters for them, because otherwise you couldn't have alternative uses. 2015-11-10T01:44:37Z White_Flame: you mean parameters as in policy? 2015-11-10T01:45:06Z White_Flame: oh, you mean the (defun x (&optional (*standard-output* *standard-output*)) ..) type usage 2015-11-10T01:45:07Z pjb: For example (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (format t "To string") (format *trace-output* "Done~%")) 2015-11-10T01:45:12Z clintm joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:45:45Z White_Flame: most uses that I've seen have something like (with-connection (..setup the connection..) ...body which uses the connection) 2015-11-10T01:45:47Z pjb: So format does take the stream parameter, beside the global dynamic variable. If it didn't, you couldn't write to *trace-output* at the same TIME. 2015-11-10T01:45:58Z White_Flame: so you don't directly use the symbol holding the var 2015-11-10T01:47:59Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T01:48:25Z ryu0: http://pastebin.com/whthB2LS 2015-11-10T01:48:39Z ryu0: for example how bar inherits the x from foo instead of top level? 2015-11-10T01:49:10Z White_Flame: when foo is called, it creates a new binding for x, which since it's a special var, anybody who uses it within that call chain will see the value bound in foo 2015-11-10T01:49:29Z White_Flame: so yes, "bar inherits the x from foo" :) 2015-11-10T01:49:47Z ryu0: or whatever the most recent dynamic scope is? 2015-11-10T01:49:50Z ryu0: for that variable? 2015-11-10T01:50:00Z White_Flame: although in real code you'd want *x* instead of x, so you don't accidentally bind it in some other code 2015-11-10T01:50:08Z White_Flame: correct, scopes nest just fine 2015-11-10T01:50:12Z ryu0: i'll keep that in mind. 2015-11-10T01:50:15Z White_Flame: and when you (setf x var), that only affects the current scope 2015-11-10T01:50:28Z pillton: Inherits is the wrong term. 2015-11-10T01:51:01Z ryu0: pillton: then what is the right term? 2015-11-10T01:51:11Z pillton: It is a binding. 2015-11-10T01:51:35Z White_Flame: so if x is 0, (let ((x 5)) (setf x 4) (bar) (setf x 3) (bar)) (bar), will print 4 3 0. The setfs only affect the binding created by the let 2015-11-10T01:51:35Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T01:51:43Z ryu0: okay, then it used the most recently bound dynamic variable for that symbol name? 2015-11-10T01:52:12Z White_Flame: it used the most recent dynamic binding for that symbol 2015-11-10T01:52:27Z ryu0: okay. 2015-11-10T01:52:30Z White_Flame: a binding is a slot to put a value into, which is associated with a symbol 2015-11-10T01:52:46Z White_Flame: when you nest scoped bindings, each level has its own independent slot 2015-11-10T01:52:56Z pillton: A binding is a mapping from a name to a value. 2015-11-10T01:52:58Z ryu0: dynamic binding seems to work like a stack of sorts... 2015-11-10T01:53:08Z Bike: indeed so 2015-11-10T01:53:32Z Bike: so does lexical binding, but the stack is compile-time, whereas dynamic binding has a runtime stack 2015-11-10T01:54:26Z White_Flame: at runtime, if you have a lexically bound (let ((a 3)) ...), there's nothing you can do with a runtime reference to the symbol A to access the number 3 in that scope. 2015-11-10T01:54:59Z ryu0: question. it says that dynamic binding is a form of 'time', does that mean when a dynamic scope ends, it reverts those bindings to the previous dynamic binding? 2015-11-10T01:54:59Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-10T01:55:17Z White_Flame: it discards the current binding and uses the previous binding, sort of like the stack metaphor 2015-11-10T01:55:48Z ryu0: and when a dynamic scope ends, it turns back the clock so to speak? 2015-11-10T01:56:20Z White_Flame: not really, it just "un-shadows" the previous binding 2015-11-10T01:56:41Z ryu0: okay, well, it sounded like a somewhat accurate analogy. 2015-11-10T01:56:56Z Bike: it's not the best, but it seems like you've got the basic idea. 2015-11-10T01:57:06Z pillton: When the dynamic scope ends, it pops off the binding. 2015-11-10T01:57:12Z pillton: Just like in lexical binding. 2015-11-10T01:57:31Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T01:57:32Z ryu0: i assume then that dynamic binding only occurs if a symbol name has been declared special? 2015-11-10T01:57:55Z Bike: with let, yeah 2015-11-10T01:58:01Z Bike: there's another mechanism, you can use progv 2015-11-10T01:58:11Z ryu0: and also the argument lists. 2015-11-10T01:58:16Z ryu0: they seem to behave like let. 2015-11-10T01:58:20Z White_Flame: with let, and arglists, and setf, and plain variable access 2015-11-10T01:58:30Z White_Flame: and that's likely not exclusive 2015-11-10T01:58:31Z pillton: ryu0: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158918 2015-11-10T01:59:15Z pillton: Damn. I used the wrong word. 2015-11-10T01:59:34Z ryu0: lexical binding you mean? 2015-11-10T01:59:37Z Bike: what declare special does is control what the symbol means in an evaluation context, let bindings, setf, etc 2015-11-10T01:59:44Z wglb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T01:59:59Z pillton: Yeah. 2015-11-10T02:01:17Z ryu0: so dynamic binding can cause problems if called functions use the variable without shadowing it first. 2015-11-10T02:02:18Z Bike: well usually that's intentional 2015-11-10T02:02:26Z Bike: like how print uses *print-base* 2015-11-10T02:02:29Z ryu0: i see. 2015-11-10T02:02:39Z ryu0: oh, in order to control its behavior? 2015-11-10T02:03:08Z ryu0: sounds like an alternative to using arguments. 2015-11-10T02:03:13Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-10T02:03:34Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:03:37Z ryu0: and the changes would persist across multiple calls to print in the same dynamic scope.. 2015-11-10T02:03:48Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T02:04:21Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:04:30Z ryu0: sounds like a useful way to avoid copy paste spaghetti code. :) 2015-11-10T02:05:04Z Bike: yes, it's often for avoiding arguments. if you look up the arguments of 'write', you'll see why we wouldn't want to do that most of the time 2015-11-10T02:05:28Z Bike: other languages have dynamic variable like mechanisms for the same purpose. i think haskell calls them "implicit arguments" 2015-11-10T02:05:43Z Bike: implicit parameters. 2015-11-10T02:05:48Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:05:52Z ryu0: except, it's not like changing a global variable. interesting. 2015-11-10T02:06:25Z Bike: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/other-type-extensions.html#implicit-parameters oh, they even call it dynamic binding 2015-11-10T02:06:36Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-10T02:07:54Z ryu0: thanks. getting late. think i'll look at more CL later this week. 2015-11-10T02:08:08Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:11:43Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:13:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:19:30Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:19:32Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:19:57Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:20:31Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:21:56Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-10T02:21:58Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-10T02:22:08Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:22:15Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:22:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:23:50Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:24:45Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-10T02:24:53Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:24:57Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:25:13Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:25:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:26:45Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:28:40Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:33:56Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:36:12Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:36:26Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:41:21Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T02:48:35Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T02:49:57Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:51:49Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:52:42Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:55:02Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:55:50Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T02:57:03Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:57:16Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T02:57:19Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:57:41Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T02:58:13Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T03:01:44Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:01:49Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:02:17Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:03:47Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T03:06:22Z muyinliu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T03:07:43Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:15:04Z breakds joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:15:19Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T03:15:52Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T03:17:33Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T03:19:55Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(also i'm reading conflicting things about (:struct foo) vs foo, but it looks like in case of mem-ref and w-f-o i'm supposed to use foo) 2015-11-10T04:03:40Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:04:09Z Bike: i don't think cffi has that idiom baked in, but it sounds like a good macro to write. 2015-11-10T04:05:30Z phf: probably want to zero it upfront and do a null check, etc. 2015-11-10T04:06:17Z beach: phf: What are you using FFI for? 2015-11-10T04:06:56Z phf: beach: trying to revive old gpgme bindings, that come stock with the project, but haven't been updated since 2008 2015-11-10T04:08:03Z phf: (totally unrelated to yesterday's questions, it's my trial run with cffi) 2015-11-10T04:09:06Z beach: Got it. 2015-11-10T04:09:06Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:11:09Z ukari: is the value of λ x. (λ x. x) x equals the third x ? 2015-11-10T04:12:24Z beach: No. 2015-11-10T04:12:29Z Bike: Um, I forget how the grouping works. Is that (λ x. (λ x. x)) x or λ x. ((λ x. x) x)? 2015-11-10T04:12:54Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:12:54Z beach: Either way, there are not enough applications to get rid of all the λs. 2015-11-10T04:13:34Z Bike: ah, you're right, it's (λ x. x) either way. 2015-11-10T04:13:48Z beach: I am not quite awake, but it looks that way to me. 2015-11-10T04:13:49Z Bike: or, no. 2015-11-10T04:14:01Z Bike: i guess it would be (λ y. x) in the first case. 2015-11-10T04:14:10Z Bike: or not? I forget how scoping works too. 2015-11-10T04:14:36Z Bike: no, yeah, identity either way. 2015-11-10T04:14:41Z Zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-10T04:14:58Z Zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:16:02Z beach: ukari: You can't expect Common Lisp people to know the λ-calculus in that level of detail. 2015-11-10T04:16:50Z Bike: yeah, man, math is hard, and everyone uses SKI anyway 2015-11-10T04:17:20Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:17:25Z ukari: well.. 2015-11-10T04:18:36Z pillton: SKI? 2015-11-10T04:18:43Z pillton: Does that mean Google? 2015-11-10T04:18:46Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T04:18:50Z beach: Heh, no. 2015-11-10T04:18:55Z pillton: Or stackoverflow. 2015-11-10T04:19:04Z beach: Bike: Is that because the λ-calculus is weird in that a β-reduction can take an arbitrary amount of time? 2015-11-10T04:19:18Z Bike: SKI combinator calculus 2015-11-10T04:19:37Z Bike: using variables is so old fashioned 2015-11-10T04:19:47Z Zabriskie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T04:19:57Z Bike: "Progress is inhibited by the exceedingly crude way in which mathematicians express their relationships. They employ a symbolism which grew like Topsy and has little consistency; a strange fact in that most logical field." 2015-11-10T04:20:01Z Bike: is why i had problems 2015-11-10T04:20:35Z beach: pillton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus 2015-11-10T04:21:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T04:22:00Z beach: Yeah, mathematicians like to use names rather than pointers. So they get into all this trouble when there is a name clash, and they have to introduce renaming steps and things like that. 2015-11-10T04:22:06Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:22:10Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T04:22:24Z beach: Very strange to me. 2015-11-10T04:22:25Z Bike: seriously, would it kill ya to use symbols with more than one letter in their names 2015-11-10T04:22:30Z ukari: what is ski 2015-11-10T04:22:43Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus 2015-11-10T04:23:06Z beach: Bike: That too. 2015-11-10T04:23:58Z Devon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T04:25:07Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T04:25:08Z pillton: I think math suffers from explanation issues more than notation. 2015-11-10T04:26:08Z Bike: notation's easier to fix 2015-11-10T04:26:15Z pillton: The number of times I have read "clearly", "obviously", "furthermore", "moreover" and failed to make the connection. 2015-11-10T04:26:39Z pillton: I don't think long symbol names makes code easier to understand. 2015-11-10T04:26:43Z pillton: We have documentation for reason. 2015-11-10T04:26:48Z pillton: s/for/for a/ 2015-11-10T04:26:50Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T04:26:54Z beach: Even smart guys like Muchnick (compiler book) don't know how to use pointers, so they write algorithms in Fortran-style instead, with indices into tables. 50 years ago, I could have understood that. 2015-11-10T04:27:42Z pillton: So what is the advantage of SKI? 2015-11-10T04:27:44Z Bike: haha, for real? 2015-11-10T04:27:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:27:53Z Bike: pillton: no variables 2015-11-10T04:27:55Z beach: Bike: For real. 2015-11-10T04:28:09Z Bike: i wonder if knuth will do that, if he doesn't die first 2015-11-10T04:28:40Z jilingju quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-10T04:28:44Z beach: pillton: Plus what I said, every reduction step in SKI takes a constant amount of time (if I remember correctly). 2015-11-10T04:28:59Z Bike: pillton: that is to say, it's nice to have a rewrite system where you don't need to worry about alpha-equivalence 2015-11-10T04:29:08Z Bike: i think it's alpha... 2015-11-10T04:29:18Z Bike: yes. sweet 2015-11-10T04:30:17Z pillton: Cool. 2015-11-10T04:30:39Z pillton: Damn. I have alpha and beta substitution implemented already. 2015-11-10T04:31:10Z Bike: the paper in bulletin of mathematics or whatever from the 40s introducing it is quite readable and doesn't have a lot of Obviously Therefore as i recall 2015-11-10T04:32:31Z beach: Older papers are often much easier to understand. 2015-11-10T04:32:32Z Bike: you're implementing lambda calculus? 2015-11-10T04:33:01Z loke_: The best way to understal SKI calculus in my opinion is to read the description of the Unlambda language 2015-11-10T04:33:04Z pillton: Yeah. 2015-11-10T04:33:22Z pillton: beach: The problem with old papers is that you can't search. 2015-11-10T04:33:34Z loke_: It's a ridiculous language, of course, but it's quite enlightening. 2015-11-10T04:33:39Z beach: pillton: I see, yes. 2015-11-10T04:33:41Z Bike: SKI is nice because it's a bit easier to encode as a number 2015-11-10T04:33:55Z pillton: Bike: Why did you ask? 2015-11-10T04:34:01Z Bike: with lambda calculus you need de bruijn indices or whatever 2015-11-10T04:34:13Z Bike: pillton: just making sure i understood implications 2015-11-10T04:34:14Z beach: Those help, yes. 2015-11-10T04:34:27Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T04:34:48Z pillton: Bike: Implications of what? 2015-11-10T04:35:11Z Bike: saying you have alpha and beta substitution implemented 2015-11-10T04:35:35Z beach: Bike: Or, you can encode the term as a graph, where variables are references to some class instance. 2015-11-10T04:36:03Z pillton: Bike: Yeah. A thoroughly fun experience. I proved (and true false) was always false. 2015-11-10T04:36:13Z Bike: more than i could do, most likely 2015-11-10T04:37:07Z pillton: I did it to have fun with non call by value. 2015-11-10T04:37:33Z pillton: Which I've been interested in for a while. 2015-11-10T04:37:55Z beach: You basically have to use outermost reduction if you want termination whenever possible. 2015-11-10T04:38:34Z pillton: Thanks pointing out SKI. 2015-11-10T04:38:42Z pillton: argh.. Thanks for ... 2015-11-10T04:40:26Z Bike: you will never run out of turing complete formalisms 2015-11-10T04:40:54Z pillton: I'll say. That Types and Programming book outlines a few more. 2015-11-10T04:41:02Z pillton: Ridiculous. 2015-11-10T04:41:42Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T04:42:06Z Bike: plus for each one it gives you five kinds of typing to choose from! regular cornucopia 2015-11-10T04:42:27Z pillton pats Bike on the back for using the word "cornucopia". 2015-11-10T04:42:49Z Bike: it's practically thanksgiving, yo 2015-11-10T04:45:16Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T04:46:45Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:46:55Z skeledrew joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:48:59Z pillton: Bike: We should author a shorter book to satisfy the "fail fast, fail often" crowd. 2015-11-10T04:49:51Z Bike: "so by this theorem, your program will be sound. like, most of the time. probably." 2015-11-10T04:50:37Z pillton: Heh. I mean, remove the language duplication. 2015-11-10T04:52:21Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:52:22Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T04:52:51Z ukari_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T04:53:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:53:28Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-10T04:53:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:53:39Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-10T04:55:25Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:00:21Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-10T05:00:39Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:01:23Z pillton: Or.. we could come up with a new one. ngSKI 2015-11-10T05:02:48Z beach: "not great"? 2015-11-10T05:03:00Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T05:03:01Z pillton: Next generation. 2015-11-10T05:03:06Z beach: Ah. 2015-11-10T05:03:13Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:03:37Z broken_clock quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-10T05:03:39Z beach: That name is not so great when someone else comes up with something even newer. 2015-11-10T05:04:03Z beach: Then you get names like "post modernism". 2015-11-10T05:04:03Z pillton: nngSKI 2015-11-10T05:05:31Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:05:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: ngSKI++ 2015-11-10T05:06:09Z nyef: SKI:DS9 ? 2015-11-10T05:06:13Z pillton: You can solve that with popularSKI. It is always the best (according to the average) and always relevant (according to the average). 2015-11-10T05:06:39Z beach: Hey nyef! How are things? 2015-11-10T05:06:44Z nyef: Okayish. 2015-11-10T05:07:01Z nyef: Just finishing up a test run on SBCL/Alpha. 2015-11-10T05:07:13Z pillton: Alpha? 2015-11-10T05:07:25Z beach: pillton: Architecture from DEC. 2015-11-10T05:07:36Z pillton: Do people still make that architecture? 2015-11-10T05:07:53Z beach: nyef does apparently. 2015-11-10T05:07:57Z beach: nyef: That backend is your work? 2015-11-10T05:08:07Z beach: Oh, "make" 2015-11-10T05:08:09Z beach: Sorry. 2015-11-10T05:08:16Z beach: No, I don't think it is made anymore. 2015-11-10T05:08:40Z nyef: It's an existing backend, I'm just blowing the rust off, adding the worst of the missing bits, and giving it a bit of a tune-up. 2015-11-10T05:14:32Z beach: Speaking of which, I read the writings of some industry analyst saying that Intel and AMD are not going to take the penetration of ARM lying down, and since they have more cash, we might see even more x86 than we currently do. 2015-11-10T05:15:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:15:12Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:15:36Z beach: I guess I am saying, ARM might go the same way as Alpha, despite an interesting architecture. 2015-11-10T05:16:04Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T05:17:46Z pillton: Haven't some companies started making server hardware containing ARM CPUs? 2015-11-10T05:18:18Z Bike: i feel like ARM's massive use in phones and microwaves and such gives them some kind of stability 2015-11-10T05:19:26Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:21:16Z jidingdu joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:21:58Z beach: I have no personal opinion about it. Just citing what I read. 2015-11-10T05:22:35Z jilingju quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:23:16Z beach: Anyway, time to go do something different. 2015-11-10T05:23:18Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-10T05:25:15Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:25:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:30:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:35:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:36:48Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-10T05:37:12Z mordocai quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-10T05:38:33Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T05:38:58Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:42:56Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:44:05Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:47:03Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-10T05:48:12Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-10T05:49:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:50:48Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:50:59Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-10T05:58:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:00:01Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-10T06:00:10Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T06:01:13Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:04:55Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T06:05:35Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T06:05:58Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:07:52Z jidingdu quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-10T06:08:17Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:10:30Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-10T06:14:34Z estupid joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:14:38Z estupid: why use objects when you have arrays? 2015-11-10T06:15:09Z Bike: convenience 2015-11-10T06:15:16Z estupid: but why? 2015-11-10T06:15:38Z Bike: because it is convenient 2015-11-10T06:15:43Z estupid: :( 2015-11-10T06:15:57Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:17:14Z Bike: objects have named accessor methods, named slot access, inheritance 2015-11-10T06:17:16Z Denommus quit (Quit: gois to sleep) 2015-11-10T06:17:31Z estupid: arrays have inheritance too no? 2015-11-10T06:17:48Z Bike: no? 2015-11-10T06:18:15Z estupid: if you set some value to an array doesn't it inherit that value? 2015-11-10T06:18:39Z Bike: what the hell do you think inheritance is 2015-11-10T06:19:16Z estupid: values that are applied to a variable 2015-11-10T06:19:32Z estupid: like array = [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] 2015-11-10T06:20:19Z Bike: that is not what i'm talking about. what i'm talking about is a very basic concept with objects. 2015-11-10T06:20:44Z Bike: look, it's like this. say i want to represent dogs. i go, okay, i'll represent each dog by an array, where the first element is its eye color, the second is its number of legs, and the third is its opinions on baudrillard. 2015-11-10T06:21:08Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T06:21:11Z Bike: but saying (aref dog 0) is weird, so i'll define an "accessor" so i can just do (dog-eye-color dog) and (dog-baudrillard-opine dog) 2015-11-10T06:21:20Z Bike: and then i run with that for about five years and bam, i've reinvented objects. 2015-11-10T06:23:21Z estupid: oh 2015-11-10T06:23:31Z estupid: i wish i wasn't so confused i will get this eventually 2015-11-10T06:23:55Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T06:28:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Can I do *something* to get array of four characters out of mem-ref? 2015-11-10T09:03:05Z theos: Shinmera any idea why i am getting this error when i use download function: The function COMMON-LISP-USER::DOWNLOAD is undefined. 2015-11-10T09:03:53Z Shinmera: I do, but I don't care to answer. 2015-11-10T09:04:15Z theos: bad day? 2015-11-10T09:04:27Z Shinmera: It's so trivial you /really/ should be able to figure it out on your own. 2015-11-10T09:05:11Z theos: i have figured it out but its too much work to download just one file. i am looking for a simpler solution :S 2015-11-10T09:05:54Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:07:21Z theos: unless i write a function to make it simpler. good talk. 2015-11-10T09:07:28Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:10:23Z resttime: otwieracz: I recommend going through the tutorial https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial.html 2015-11-10T09:10:39Z resttime: And again I recommend reading the CFFI documentation: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/mem_002dref.html#mem_002dref 2015-11-10T09:13:15Z resttime: Err and I don't necessarily mean read "all" of it but you'll find better explanations and code examples by looking things up for these basic things. 2015-11-10T09:14:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:17:19Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:18:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:24:35Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:25:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:28:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:33:32Z LilSusieCrabCake lulz at the level of drama intro to "Let Over Lambda" :) 2015-11-10T09:33:56Z LilSusieCrabCake lulz at their own level of drunkenness, and resultant bad grammar 2015-11-10T09:34:41Z blubjr: hi lilsusiecrabcake 2015-11-10T09:34:52Z LilSusieCrabCake: Dude is preaching the macro-apocalypse: "the age of the macro is coming, whether the world is ready or not. This book aims to be a base-line preparation for the inevitable future: a world of macros. Be prepared." 2015-11-10T09:35:12Z LilSusieCrabCake: Howdy blubjr 2015-11-10T09:36:31Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:38:05Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-10T09:39:26Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:41:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:43:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:45:55Z bege joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:49:14Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:53:45Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:54:23Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:55:04Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-10T09:56:30Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T09:58:50Z dead_ is now known as DeadTrickster_ 2015-11-10T09:58:55Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:06:52Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:09:31Z DeadTrickster_ is now known as dead 2015-11-10T10:09:35Z dead is now known as dead_ 2015-11-10T10:09:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T10:10:52Z DeadTrickster quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T10:11:09Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T10:11:09Z dead_ is now known as DeadTrickster 2015-11-10T10:12:07Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:12:55Z DeadTrickster left #lisp 2015-11-10T10:13:28Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:16:55Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:17:06Z DeadTrickster quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T10:17:15Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-11-10T10:17:19Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:17:38Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:20:50Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:21:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T10:22:14Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:29:29Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:40:26Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T10:44:30Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T10:56:10Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T10:57:54Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-10T10:59:56Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:00:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:00:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-10T11:00:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:01:18Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:01:54Z xyh left #lisp 2015-11-10T11:01:59Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T11:02:35Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T11:05:35Z preacherAKAnd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T11:06:25Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T11:06:49Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:07:34Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T11:09:01Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:11:04Z randommelon left #lisp 2015-11-10T11:15:36Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:16:12Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T11:17:02Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T11:20:16Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-10T12:56:56Z varjag: via quicklisp 2015-11-10T12:57:19Z Xach: i build it frequently 2015-11-10T12:57:26Z Xach: but never actually use it 2015-11-10T12:57:26Z theos: hey Xach_ 2015-11-10T12:57:28Z Xach: hello theos 2015-11-10T12:58:24Z theos: i am saving an mp3 file by catching the stream and saving it byte by byte(i think). is there another way? 2015-11-10T12:58:37Z pjb: theos: sure. 2015-11-10T12:58:44Z theos: without the use of drakma that is. 2015-11-10T12:58:51Z Xach: theos: that seems like a reasonable way. you can also save more than just one byte at a time. 2015-11-10T12:59:02Z theos: with write-sequence? 2015-11-10T12:59:06Z Xach: theos: every implementation has network features. 2015-11-10T12:59:26Z pjb: (setf (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.FILE:BINARY-FILE-CONTENTS "file.mp3") mp3-data) 2015-11-10T12:59:26Z Xach: theos: read-sequence and write-sequence are often available on network streams 2015-11-10T12:59:57Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T13:00:00Z pjb: Or use COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.STREAM:COPY-STREAM if you are reading byte by byte too… 2015-11-10T13:00:04Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:00:08Z Xach: theos: why do you not want to use drakma? 2015-11-10T13:00:09Z varjag: Xach: stumbles on iolib here, but it is possibly some userland requirement i miss 2015-11-10T13:00:16Z varjag: c++ deps 2015-11-10T13:00:21Z varjag: http://paste.lisp.org/display/158963 2015-11-10T13:00:35Z theos: Xach drakma uses more resources, no? 2015-11-10T13:00:45Z theos: pjb thanks. that looks nice! 2015-11-10T13:00:51Z varjag: g++ is installed at least 2015-11-10T13:01:02Z Xach: theos: more resources than what? 2015-11-10T13:01:11Z Xach: varjag: what happens when you run that command from the shell prompt? 2015-11-10T13:01:22Z varjag: doing just that 1sec 2015-11-10T13:01:22Z Xach: theos: do you have the time to rewrite it? those resources have value too. 2015-11-10T13:01:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T13:01:51Z theos: Xach i figured that drakma is a full-fledged software so it would have to load more files for even simpler tasks? 2015-11-10T13:02:09Z pjb: But they're smaller files. 2015-11-10T13:02:18Z theos: as compared to a trivial software which has less files 2015-11-10T13:02:29Z pjb: but much bigger. 2015-11-10T13:02:37Z pjb: For example, adsf.lisp is a single file, but it's BIG. 2015-11-10T13:02:42Z theos: thats a good point 2015-11-10T13:02:52Z pjb: 576505 bytes! 2015-11-10T13:03:16Z theos: so i should use drakma for everything? 2015-11-10T13:03:20Z varjag: missing header 2015-11-10T13:03:27Z varjag: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.iolib.devel/433 2015-11-10T13:03:36Z varjag: was the same issue 2015-11-10T13:03:37Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-10T13:03:40Z pjb: all the .lisp in drakma are only 114052 bytes. 2015-11-10T13:04:04Z pjb: So, since you already have asdf loaded, loading drakma is peanuts compared to it. 2015-11-10T13:04:15Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:04:42Z varjag: Xach: while you here, can you put through my pull req into sharplispers/cl-jpeg 2015-11-10T13:04:56Z theos: unloading asdf will cause problems? 2015-11-10T13:05:13Z fe[nl]ix: varjag: you need to install libfixposix 2015-11-10T13:05:40Z varjag: fe[nl]ix: yep, it worked once i did 2015-11-10T13:06:47Z theos: oh i will lose uiop. hmm 2015-11-10T13:07:56Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:08:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:09:27Z loke_: pjb: whaaaa? asdf is that big? and in one file? 2015-11-10T13:10:03Z pjb: Well, this is the distribution/load file. The actual sources are split in several files, but they are then concatenated for distribution. 2015-11-10T13:10:07Z loke_: My Potato project (web-based group chat app application) is 93 files of CL, totalling 567466 bytes. 2015-11-10T13:10:20Z loke_: Just a hair _smaller_ than asdf. 2015-11-10T13:10:22Z pjb: asdf is not a simple project. 2015-11-10T13:10:43Z loke_: pjb: Fair enough, but one file vs. 93!? 2015-11-10T13:11:05Z pjb: Why do you think it's the Nth iteration of a defsystem, 3rd major version of asdf itself, and there's an xcvb in the pipeline? 2015-11-10T13:11:20Z pjb: It's just a matter of distribution. 2015-11-10T13:11:33Z pjb: and of bootstrap of course too. 2015-11-10T13:11:45Z pjb: You can't use asdf to decide what file of asdf to load in what order. 2015-11-10T13:12:09Z theos: asdf is BIG 2015-11-10T13:12:33Z pjb: Also, it supports all the CL implementations currently used. 2015-11-10T13:12:49Z pjb: (without portability libraries, it depends on nothing). 2015-11-10T13:13:04Z loke_: Hmm, the asdf in my sbcl installation directory is only 234675 bytes... 2015-11-10T13:13:12Z pjb: And old version? 2015-11-10T13:13:28Z yjikuh joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:13:31Z loke_: pjb: I just did a git pull on sbcl 2015-11-10T13:14:07Z pjb: Now, there are comments, indentation and long local symbols… I guess one could pack it down to a third of the size easily. 2015-11-10T13:14:10Z loke_: There is a 300 kB uiop.lisp in there too. 2015-11-10T13:15:05Z Xach: the official asdf and sbcl's asdf are not identical 2015-11-10T13:15:22Z loke_: Xach: the abcl one has stripped out all #-sbcl ? 2015-11-10T13:15:28Z loke_: I mean sbcl one 2015-11-10T13:15:51Z Xach: loke_: "official" asdf.lisp has uiop inside it. 2015-11-10T13:16:11Z jackdaniel: asdf source is spread over dozen of files also 2015-11-10T13:16:19Z loke_: Xach: Ah. That explains it all. 2015-11-10T13:16:20Z jackdaniel: it just "builds" to one file 2015-11-10T13:16:25Z Xach: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.lisp 2015-11-10T13:16:33Z loke_: That explains even more. 2015-11-10T13:16:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T13:17:51Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:18:10Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T13:19:44Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:20:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-10T13:20:40Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:21:14Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-11-10T13:21:14Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:21:23Z loke_: Speaking of latest SBCL. Anyone using sbcl from git? 2015-11-10T13:21:37Z loke_: I just tried to load my project using today's version, and string-case no longer loads. 2015-11-10T13:21:46Z loke_: Xach, you heard any reports on this? 2015-11-10T13:22:00Z Xach: loke_: no. 2015-11-10T13:22:03Z Xach: until now 2015-11-10T13:22:27Z loke_: It seems the symbol sb-c::explicit-check which is used in the x86-64 optimised path is no longer defined in the latest sbcl 2015-11-10T13:22:49Z Xof: ah, yes 2015-11-10T13:22:56Z Xof: just take it out of the string-case definition 2015-11-10T13:23:18Z loke_: Xof: Thanks. It was stassats that wrote string-case, right? 2015-11-10T13:23:23Z Xach: no, pkhuong 2015-11-10T13:23:29Z loke_: ah 2015-11-10T13:23:38Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-11-10T13:24:09Z loke_: Seems like a simple enough fix. Where is the home of string-case, so that I can file a bug report? 2015-11-10T13:24:44Z loke_: Xof: And thank you. 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2015-11-10T14:56:15Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-10T14:56:20Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-10T14:56:41Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-10T14:58:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T15:00:36Z jilingju quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T15:01:03Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:02:03Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T15:03:41Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:03:41Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-10T15:03:41Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:04:12Z jilingju quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T15:05:37Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:05:46Z loz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:05:50Z loz: hi guys 2015-11-10T15:06:02Z blubjr: hi loz 2015-11-10T15:06:06Z loz: I'm trying out new great completion mode - company 2015-11-10T15:06:22Z loz: doc says >Use M-n and M-p to select,  to complete or  to complete the common part 2015-11-10T15:06:53Z loz: but when I'm in company mode, in completions list, M-n and M-p closes it and goes to next/previous line 2015-11-10T15:07:28Z loz: how can I figure out why does this happen and fix it? 2015-11-10T15:07:29Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:08:01Z nyef: This sounds like an emacs thing. #emacs is <-- that way. 2015-11-10T15:08:30Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T15:08:57Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-10T15:09:01Z loz: ouch, missed again, sorry 2015-11-10T15:10:12Z otwieracz quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-10T15:11:53Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-10T15:11:57Z yjikuh left #lisp 2015-11-10T15:13:19Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T15:16:26Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-10T15:17:23Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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In the extreme cases, if i dont want to give someone credit, i just write my own. 2015-11-10T16:11:24Z iamrohit7 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:11:33Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T16:11:59Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:12:13Z pjb: Well, as I see it, the interesting point of GPL is not the credit, is the trade: I give my source, you give yours. Since corporations don't want to give them usually, we have to be adamant about it. 2015-11-10T16:12:22Z pjb: s/them/theirs/ 2015-11-10T16:12:48Z pjb: See for example the TTP, where corporations now want to forbid states to require sources. 2015-11-10T16:13:13Z oleo: pfft 2015-11-10T16:13:18Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:13:18Z oleo: TTP 2015-11-10T16:13:27Z oleo: will fail 2015-11-10T16:13:57Z pjb: We have such a bunch of chimps as politicians, I wouldn't bet on it. They're completely sold. 2015-11-10T16:14:07Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T16:14:25Z oleo: what if all our knowledge-base was given to us by aliens ? 2015-11-10T16:14:26Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:14:58Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-10T16:15:27Z theos: politicians will always be chimps. we want chimps there. just need our own lobby groups. 2015-11-10T16:16:05Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:16:33Z iamrohit7: how do i learn lisp? 2015-11-10T16:17:16Z pjb: iamrohit7: read a tutorial, write programs, read a book, write programs, read CLHS, write more programs. 2015-11-10T16:17:34Z pjb: iamrohit7: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial 2015-11-10T16:17:53Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2015-11-10T16:18:09Z dlowe: ... aren't we all a bunch of chimps? 2015-11-10T16:18:35Z dlowe: never mind. this is #lispcafe stuff 2015-11-10T16:18:35Z oleo: some are more chimps..... 2015-11-10T16:18:38Z oleo: lol 2015-11-10T16:18:44Z dlowe: forget I said anything. Sorry! 2015-11-10T16:19:13Z theos: so whats the difference between byte by byte read/write of a stream and sequence read/write? is there a resource/time difference? quality difference? 2015-11-10T16:19:32Z pjb: theos: there's fewer function calls, and possibly fewer syscalls too. 2015-11-10T16:19:44Z pjb: theos: it's the difference between buffered and buffered I/O. 2015-11-10T16:20:12Z iamrohit7: how do i transition from learning a language to actually start writing useful programs in it? i learnt a bit of C and Python but I'm going no where beyond that. 2015-11-10T16:20:34Z pjb: iamrohit7: my technique is to lear an element of the language, and the write programs using it. 2015-11-10T16:20:37Z oleo: iamrohit7: application fields..... 2015-11-10T16:20:45Z oleo: iamrohit7: mostly maths ..... 2015-11-10T16:20:50Z theos: pjb i see. thanks. what do you suggest? i need quick processing with minimum resource usage. 2015-11-10T16:20:54Z oleo: iamrohit7: is a good start 2015-11-10T16:21:14Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:21:33Z pjb: iamrohit7: for example, if you learn that there are strings in lisp, and you can make them with make-string, format, concatenate, aref and (setf aref), then I would write a little program that would manipulate strings using those opeartors. 2015-11-10T16:21:46Z Xach: iamrohit7: read existing programs, write small programs, practice, practice, practice, write bigger programs. 2015-11-10T16:22:17Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:22:27Z theos: iamrohit7 learn macros and closures. then write your own freakin programming language! 2015-11-10T16:22:29Z pjb: iamrohit7: now, there's the question whether you already know some programming/algorithmics or if you don't know anything about algorithms. 2015-11-10T16:23:04Z iamrohit7: pjb: some basic algorithms and data structures, i know. but not lisp. 2015-11-10T16:23:13Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:23:14Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T16:23:33Z pjb: Then you're good. You can go ahead the elements of the language and apply them in your own programs. 2015-11-10T16:24:35Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T16:24:51Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:25:58Z mrSpec: iamrohit7: find a nice problem you want to solve, and learn the language while you are trying to solve it. 2015-11-10T16:26:02Z pjb: iamrohit7: I'd tend to be partial with those small (100 pages) tutorials: http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/raw-file/tip/doc/LISP-tutorial.txt http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf Also, the CL section in PAIP. 2015-11-10T16:26:38Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:26:46Z theos: iamrohit7 this is Common Lisp channel. it is the best language there is! PAIP is a good and interesting book to start with. ^^ 2015-11-10T16:29:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T16:29:24Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:30:28Z iamrohit7: theos: where do you use it? 2015-11-10T16:31:02Z theos: iamrohit7 use Common Lisp(CL)? anywhere you want to 2015-11-10T16:31:08Z Xach: I use it to make novelty graphics websites like pixelspeechbubble.com and mainetownline.com 2015-11-10T16:31:16Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:31:18Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T16:31:25Z Xach: the generated graphics are all drawn with a common lisp program 2015-11-10T16:31:33Z Xach: and served with common lisp http program 2015-11-10T16:32:29Z iamrohit7: pjb: what algorithmics did you mean when you asked me if i know any? a few examples of commonly used techniques that come to your mind would be great. 2015-11-10T16:33:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-10T16:33:12Z iamrohit7: Xach: why did you choose to do it with lisp? 2015-11-10T16:33:31Z theos: iamrohit7 Artificial Intelligence is usually a good point in the sales pitch but you can do anything your mind can think of. you can write programs that write programs. you will never want to use any other language. 2015-11-10T16:33:44Z Xach: iamrohit7: because i can write lisp programs faster than other programs, mostly. 2015-11-10T16:33:57Z pjb: iamrohit7: nothing fancy, just sequential processing, iteration, recursivity, processing arrays, structures, lists. 2015-11-10T16:34:20Z pjb: Most programs don't need fancy algorithmic, but you need to know what this is to be able to write your first program. 2015-11-10T16:36:17Z mbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:37:29Z iamrohit7: i want to make a great text editor someday, but i'm in college and frankly, i'm too occupied about getting a job and everything seems to be falling apart. 2015-11-10T16:41:25Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:42:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T16:43:01Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:43:18Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:43:28Z iamrohit7 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-10T16:43:40Z pjb: iamrohit7: 2015-11-10T16:43:41Z psy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-10T16:43:57Z pjb: minion: memo for iamrohit7: check https://www.finseth.com/craft/ 2015-11-10T16:43:57Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell iamrohit7 when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-10T16:44:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:44:48Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:45:48Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-10T16:46:59Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-10T16:47:48Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T16:49:07Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-10T16:49:10Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T16:49:46Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:49:59Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:51:06Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:53:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-10T16:54:03Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-10T16:57:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T16:57:11Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T16:57:32Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:00:03Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-10T17:00:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:00:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:01:18Z synchromesh: pjb: Thanks for the link, this is why I keep a #lisp window open. :) 2015-11-10T17:01:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:01:40Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:01:49Z blubjr: ya pjb that looks excellent 2015-11-10T17:02:35Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:07:14Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:07:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:09:03Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:09:10Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:09:34Z theos: ok before everyone sleeps, whats the easiest way to play an mp3/wav file? 2015-11-10T17:10:09Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T17:10:15Z mood: theos: I use Mixalot for playing mp3, but it doesn't support wav as far as I know: https://github.com/ahefner/mixalot 2015-11-10T17:10:45Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-10T17:11:07Z theos: mood yes mixalot only plays mp3 afaik 2015-11-10T17:11:19Z mood: Well, also flac and ogg, but not wav 2015-11-10T17:11:48Z Bike: it dumps pcm into alsa, so you can probably work something out. 2015-11-10T17:12:34Z theos: oh. so no raw either. 2015-11-10T17:14:28Z Oladon1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T17:14:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T17:15:11Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T17:15:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:15:47Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:16:14Z theos: if only i could run "play" without shell. 2015-11-10T17:16:16Z jasom: theos: probably sdl? 2015-11-10T17:16:39Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:17:52Z JokesOnYou77 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:17:56Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all 2015-11-10T17:18:34Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-10T17:19:18Z JokesOnYou77: Where does the convention of adding N to the names of functions that perform destructive modifications come from? E.g. NCONC? 2015-11-10T17:19:50Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T17:20:07Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:21:06Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:21:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:23:08Z dwchandler: N is for non-consing. Those functions recycle existing cons cells rather than allocating new ones 2015-11-10T17:24:44Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T17:25:03Z JokesOnYou77: dwchandler, Thank you! 2015-11-10T17:26:07Z srcerer quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.2/20151014143721]) 2015-11-10T17:26:19Z JokesOnYou77: I was considering using the convention for a project in another language but I see that it doesn't really apply as the language in question doesn't use use consing as a primary method for sequence construction. 2015-11-10T17:27:05Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:27:06Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:27:10Z dwchandler: Some langs already have a convention for that. Which lang? 2015-11-10T17:28:14Z dwchandler: Ruby idiom is "!" on the end, iirc. 2015-11-10T17:28:44Z blubjr: ruby got it from scheme 2015-11-10T17:29:02Z dwchandler: ah... :) 2015-11-10T17:30:06Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:30:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:30:50Z mprelude: I like Ruby's idioms 2015-11-10T17:30:53Z mastokley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T17:30:59Z mprelude: ! for destructive, ? for boolean 2015-11-10T17:32:12Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T17:33:39Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:34:16Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:34:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:36:07Z theos: jasom what about sdl? 2015-11-10T17:37:35Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:37:56Z oGMo: theos: is that for sound? sdl-mixer i believe plays numerous formats 2015-11-10T17:38:22Z theos: oGMo nice! thanks. i will look into it 2015-11-10T17:38:25Z Yuuhi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T17:40:23Z theos: i want to play mp3 and wav files 2015-11-10T17:42:06Z PuercoPop: theos: have you looked at https://github.com/RobBlackwell/cl-wav ? (caveat I haven't) 2015-11-10T17:42:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:42:16Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:42:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:43:18Z theos: PuercoPop thanks. how do people write such awesome software! i wish i could do that! 2015-11-10T17:43:28Z joshmcmillan_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T17:43:54Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:44:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:46:04Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T17:46:26Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:47:23Z dlowe: it's just moving bytes from one place to another. 2015-11-10T17:47:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:48:06Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:49:00Z Xach: the right bytes in the right order and presto 2015-11-10T17:49:33Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:50:04Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T17:50:35Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:53:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:53:43Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-10T17:54:56Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:55:11Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-10T17:55:34Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T17:57:45Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:00:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:00:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-10T18:00:29Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I've got a large codebase now that I'm reorganizing and I'd at the very least like for my classes to have some intelligent naming conventions 2015-11-10T18:17:43Z JokesOnYou77: I definitely do like the Scheme "?" convention for predicates. My professor used to read them as "huh?" 2015-11-10T18:17:54Z dwchandler: :) 2015-11-10T18:18:47Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:22:07Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:22:15Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-10T18:22:56Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:24:40Z sid_cypher joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:25:43Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:26:33Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:26:46Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T18:26:54Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T18:27:06Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:29:17Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:32:06Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:32:41Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:32:45Z MrWoohoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T18:32:50Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-10T18:35:03Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:35:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:35:29Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:36:49Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T18:37:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:40:00Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:40:25Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:42:51Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T18:45:23Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T18:49:36Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T18:55:34Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-10T18:56:55Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T19:49:22Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T19:53:21Z mood: ryu0: That's correct: (let* ((l1 (list 1 2)) (l2 (append l1))) (setf (cdr (last l1)) (list 3)) l2) ;=> (1 2 3) 2015-11-10T19:53:25Z H4ns: fantazo: do you have a concrete question or do you just wonder if such people exist? 2015-11-10T19:54:15Z pjb: ryu0: you can use concatenate 'list if you want a 100% fresh list. 2015-11-10T19:54:23Z fantazo: H4ns, just wondering. like if people exist who actually know the C++ standard or any javascript standard. 2015-11-10T19:54:36Z ryu0: pjb: i was just thinking it could cause problems if the last list is later modified. 2015-11-10T19:54:38Z pjb: or of course, you can (append a b c (copy-list d)) or (append a b c d '()) 2015-11-10T19:54:46Z pjb: ryu0: definitely. 2015-11-10T19:54:59Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T19:55:03Z Yanez: fantazo: I can think of a couple on comp.lang.lisp (and here) who would qualify 2015-11-10T19:55:12Z pjb: And notably if the last list is immutable (eg. a literal), you must mutate it. 2015-11-10T19:55:24Z ryu0: pjb: i'm well aware of the perils of pointers. lol. 2015-11-10T19:55:37Z ryu0: i was honestly expecting append to copy all of them. 2015-11-10T19:55:41Z fantazo: if those people exist I would conclude that they must have a special interest in lexica or telephone books. 2015-11-10T19:56:03Z pjb: fantazo: I would say that only CL implementers really know almost ALL of CLHS well. I know some parts, but not all of it. 2015-11-10T19:56:08Z ryu0: pjb: i guess that is one useful thing i learned from C. how pointers can cause issues. 2015-11-10T19:56:25Z pjb: ryu0: good. 2015-11-10T19:56:29Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T19:56:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-10T19:57:06Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T19:57:08Z fantazo: pjb, then you have a story about each function. as all of those features have a history. probably dating back to the dawn of time in computing. 2015-11-10T19:57:11Z ryu0: since i don't have that level of control in CL, i need to know what it does to work with CL correctly... 2015-11-10T19:57:12Z otwieracz quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T19:57:30Z fantazo: (where there were still lazor raptors) 2015-11-10T19:57:40Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T19:57:46Z pjb: fantazo: well, for this you may want to also study the sources and manuals of older lisps. 2015-11-10T19:57:54Z fantazo: (and of course floating turing machines in mid air) 2015-11-10T19:58:06Z pjb: fantazo: I've personnally transcribed the scans of the LISP 1.5 1962 listing. 2015-11-10T19:58:09Z eni joined #lisp 2015-11-10T19:58:29Z pjb: (not sufficient to know it very well, but at least I've got an idea of what was in it). 2015-11-10T19:58:59Z pjb: ryu0: indeed, this is the right way to go about it. 2015-11-10T19:59:19Z ryu0: pjb: i assume that in general it is desirable to make your own copies if you must retain access to user data? 2015-11-10T19:59:26Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T19:59:27Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T19:59:27Z Yanez: fantazo: what are lazor raptors? 2015-11-10T19:59:34Z ryu0: i've had to do that with C string literals (strdup) 2015-11-10T19:59:39Z pjb: ryu0: during the first years of lisp programming, I'd check the clhs for each operator I'd use. 2015-11-10T19:59:57Z fantazo: Yanez, sorry mistyped: laser raptors. 2015-11-10T20:00:11Z ryu0: because i couldn't guarantee the location of their string literal would be around later. 2015-11-10T20:00:14Z Yanez: fantazo: I repeat my question... what are laser raptors? :) 2015-11-10T20:00:14Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:00:16Z ryu0: it could be stack allocated or such. 2015-11-10T20:00:30Z pjb: ryu0: not necessarily. It all depends on the style of programming you adopt. In general, you would write functions that won't mutate their arguments, so it would pose no problem of sharing some data structure. 2015-11-10T20:00:33Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:00:42Z Yanez: ryu0: that's not something you need to worry about in CL (at least for strings) 2015-11-10T20:01:04Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T20:01:07Z pjb: ryu0: on the other hand, in CL we often use mutation INSIDE a function, while building a new datastructure. And there, you need to be careful about these things. 2015-11-10T20:01:26Z fantazo: Yanez, well an internet meme, I guess? this is for amusement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg 2015-11-10T20:01:27Z ryu0: mutation? is that the act of changing mutable data? 2015-11-10T20:01:39Z pjb: Yanez: it depends, really, because for example, displaced arrays. 2015-11-10T20:01:49Z pjb: ryu0: yes. 2015-11-10T20:02:00Z ebrasca quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-10T20:02:25Z ryu0: pjb: i don't know all the terms but i do have an good ability to infer meaning. 2015-11-10T20:02:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:02:37Z pjb: Actually, most CL objects are mutable a-priory. Some immutable objects are numbers, characters, pathnames. 2015-11-10T20:03:20Z pjb: Symbol names are immutable, but of course you can mutate the symbol plist, function and value slots. And also the symbol package by "moving" it around with unintern import and export. 2015-11-10T20:03:41Z ryu0: my book was saying something about USER and LISP packages. 2015-11-10T20:03:44Z ryu0: do those still exist? 2015-11-10T20:04:01Z ryu0: gentle introduction book. 2015-11-10T20:04:06Z blubjr: :cl and :cl-user 2015-11-10T20:04:48Z fantazo: Yanez, this location https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg&feature=youtu.be&t=740 2015-11-10T20:05:42Z pjb: ryu0: no, those package names were in the pre-CL. 2015-11-10T20:05:52Z ryu0: so that's why... 2015-11-10T20:05:57Z pjb: in CL, it's COMMON-LISP nicknamed CL, COMMON-LISP-USER nicknamed CL-USER. 2015-11-10T20:06:03Z ryu0: gentle referenced them but SBCL had no knowledge of them. 2015-11-10T20:06:20Z pjb: yes, it needs an addendum. 2015-11-10T20:06:38Z ryu0: well, no big deal. it doesn't cover packages much. 2015-11-10T20:06:51Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T20:06:54Z ryu0: i'll get into that later with another book. 2015-11-10T20:07:24Z ryu0: CL seems way more preferable to python to me anyway. 2015-11-10T20:07:53Z ryu0: pjb: has CL gone through any API changes like python did from 2 to 3? 2015-11-10T20:08:03Z pjb: You could do: (defpackage "LISP" (:use "CL") (:export . #.(let (ss) (do-external-symbols (s "CL" ss) (push (symbol-name s) ss))))) (defpackage "USER" (:use "LISP")) 2015-11-10T20:08:16Z ryu0: or is it just like C standard changes? only additions for the most part? 2015-11-10T20:08:24Z pjb: ryu0: not really, the changes were minimal between CLtL and CL. 2015-11-10T20:08:49Z pjb: It's just that the standardization effort lasted 10 years, so there were some differences between the start and the end. 2015-11-10T20:09:14Z ryu0: good, good. i like stable languages. 2015-11-10T20:09:27Z pjb: Mostly, the name of the packages, and the introduction of a LAMBDA macro, so we don't have to write (function (lambda (…) …)) or #'(lambda (…) …) but just (lambda (…) …). 2015-11-10T20:09:50Z blubjr: yuck 2015-11-10T20:09:52Z ryu0: lambda is the general term for anonymous functions in many languages, right? 2015-11-10T20:09:53Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-10T20:09:56Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-10T20:10:06Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:10:07Z pjb: From Church's Lambda Calculus. 2015-11-10T20:10:14Z ryu0: i'm somewhat aware. 2015-11-10T20:10:21Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:10:30Z pjb: ryu0: when you'll have a free afternoon, you might want to have a look at it, it's funny. 2015-11-10T20:10:32Z ryu0: the basis of functional i believe? 2015-11-10T20:10:37Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-10T20:10:55Z ryu0: i've also heard von neumman throw around. is it the basis of imperative / procedural? 2015-11-10T20:11:03Z ryu0: thrown. 2015-11-10T20:11:24Z ryu0: or is that the turing machine? i'm not quite clear on these aspects. 2015-11-10T20:11:28Z ryu0: XD 2015-11-10T20:11:29Z pjb: Not exactly. The contribution of Von Neumann is the computer where the same memory is used both for the data and the program. 2015-11-10T20:11:40Z ryu0: i see. 2015-11-10T20:11:48Z pjb: Notice how in Turing Machines, the program is embodied in the state machine, and the data in the infinite memory tape. 2015-11-10T20:11:55Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-10T20:12:05Z ryu0: heh. "infinite" 2015-11-10T20:12:18Z pjb: In a Von Neuman machine, the state machine is recorded on the tape (this is what happens in Universal Turing Machines). 2015-11-10T20:12:39Z pjb: So if you had a Von Neuman machine with infinite memory, you'd have a Universal Turing Machine. 2015-11-10T20:12:55Z ryu0: is this the basis for modern CPUs? 2015-11-10T20:13:07Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-10T20:13:20Z pjb: Notice that the machine where LISP was invented, the 7090, had a XEC instructions that executed an instruction that was stored in some place in memory. A sort of EVAL in assembler :-) 2015-11-10T20:13:34Z ryu0: it was my understanding that the Lisp machine these days runs atop another kind of machine. 2015-11-10T20:13:38Z pjb: ryu0: definitely, almost all our CPUs are Von Neuman machines. 2015-11-10T20:14:05Z pjb: Also, another characterisic, is that the memory is separate from the CPU, so there's this bottleneck of the memory bus. 2015-11-10T20:14:06Z ryu0: but i do recall reading some older computers spoke Lisp natively. 2015-11-10T20:14:30Z ryu0: you didn't need an interpreter to run your programs. 2015-11-10T20:14:32Z pjb: Conversely, on machine where this bottleneck doesn't exist, like eg. GPU, or some DPS, you don't have Von Neuman machines. 2015-11-10T20:14:36Z ryu0: is that about right? 2015-11-10T20:14:43Z pjb: The program in those processors is not stored in the same memory as the data. 2015-11-10T20:15:15Z ryu0: oh, like how BIOS store their program data in a form of ROM? 2015-11-10T20:15:24Z pjb: ryu0: that's not entirely correct. Lisp Machines still had an machine language different from Lisp. But it was optimized for lisp. First it used managed/tagged memory. 2015-11-10T20:15:34Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-10T20:15:43Z pjb: Then it had some common lisp functions hardwired, such as CAR and CDR. 2015-11-10T20:15:54Z grees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:16:22Z pjb: ryu0: yes, so the processor couldn't add a string to an integer, because the tag bits would be checked and this would signal a type exception. 2015-11-10T20:16:35Z ryu0: heh... 2015-11-10T20:17:07Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:17:07Z ryu0: i recall when i was using a bit of x86 asm.. it appears to have no notion of types other than floating point, integers, and pointers... 2015-11-10T20:17:30Z ryu0: and how the bits are intepreted depends on the instructions used 2015-11-10T20:17:37Z ryu0: interpreted. 2015-11-10T20:17:39Z ryu0: bah. 2015-11-10T20:17:46Z pjb: ryu0: Non Von Neuman machines have two memories, one for the program and one for the data, with two buses, and the instructions only allow usually to access the data memory, not the instruction memory. The program is loaded by means outside of the processors. (in the case of a GPU, the program is loaded by the CPU). 2015-11-10T20:18:22Z pjb: ryu0: x86 doesn't even have the notion of fp int or pointer: just that of register. 2015-11-10T20:18:31Z ryu0: ah. 2015-11-10T20:18:38Z pjb: You can load an int in a register, and use it as a float, or as a pointer. 2015-11-10T20:18:56Z pjb: Hence C type casting, and all the bugs coming with it. 2015-11-10T20:19:20Z ryu0: and the hell that is C integer promotions and such. 2015-11-10T20:19:48Z pjb: That said, CL has functions like DECODE-FLOAT and INTEGER-DECODE-FLOAT. 2015-11-10T20:19:49Z ryu0: one part i never mastered too well. i got by using the same integer types for variables if i could. 2015-11-10T20:20:07Z pjb: Indeed, it's the best way to deal with it. 2015-11-10T20:20:27Z pjb: Wirth introduced CARDINAL and INTEGER in Modula-2, but reverted to only INTEGER in Oberon. 2015-11-10T20:22:04Z blubjr: were integers just indices 2015-11-10T20:22:29Z ryu0: cardinal and integer? like pascal? 2015-11-10T20:22:37Z ryu0: one was unsigned and the other signed from what i saw. 2015-11-10T20:22:46Z pjb: IIRC, in Pascal (at leat originally) there was only integers. 2015-11-10T20:22:59Z ryu0: free pascal implements cardinals. 2015-11-10T20:23:07Z pjb: ok. 2015-11-10T20:23:12Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-10T20:23:41Z ryu0: http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/ref/refsu5.html#x27-27003r2 2015-11-10T20:24:30Z blubjr: oh i was thinking of cardinal as opposed to ordinal 2015-11-10T20:24:42Z yaewa joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:25:03Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:25:05Z shka: ryu0: on the other hand 2015-11-10T20:25:12Z ryu0: ? 2015-11-10T20:25:41Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:25:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:26:02Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:26:03Z shka: ryu0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root 2015-11-10T20:26:10Z shka: regarding types 2015-11-10T20:26:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:26:24Z shka: this code is hilarious 2015-11-10T20:26:26Z ryu0: let me guess. the fast invere square root hack in doom or something. 2015-11-10T20:26:30Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T20:26:45Z ryu0: no, quake. 2015-11-10T20:27:04Z shka: yes 2015-11-10T20:27:30Z yaewa quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T20:27:37Z shka: any example of what pjb said 2015-11-10T20:27:45Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:28:12Z Bicyclidine: hm, it probably wasn't in id tech 4 2015-11-10T20:28:15Z shka: and any example of code that leaves you wondering what was the thought process behind it 2015-11-10T20:28:38Z ryu0: shka: the magic numbers involved in optimizing division by a constant? :) 2015-11-10T20:28:40Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:28:56Z ryu0: http://www.hackersdelight.org/magic.htm 2015-11-10T20:29:09Z shka: ryu0: among other things 2015-11-10T20:29:27Z Bicyclidine: that's just exploiting modular arithmetic. nothing bad or hacky about it, as far as i'm concerned. 2015-11-10T20:30:16Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-10T20:31:10Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T20:31:12Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:31:17Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T20:31:42Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:31:46Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:31:55Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T20:31:58Z Bicyclidine: fast inverse square root isn't really bad either, but it could have used ane xplanation as to how that was supposed to be close to sqrt(i). 2015-11-10T20:32:24Z pjb: shka: you might want to have a look at http://www.hackersdelight.org/ 2015-11-10T20:32:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:33:23Z shka: Bicyclidine: i would be more interested knowing how it was figured out 2015-11-10T20:33:37Z pjb: shka: using maths. 2015-11-10T20:33:45Z Bicyclidine: fast inverse square root? there's actually a whole historical explanation, lol. 2015-11-10T20:33:48Z shka: yeah, probabbly 2015-11-10T20:34:06Z Bicyclidine: to try to figure out the exact constant, i mean. the idea of approximating sqrt that way isn't that hard 2015-11-10T20:34:06Z pjb: Basically, using series, and finding a series that converges rapidly. 2015-11-10T20:34:46Z shka: yeah, it is descibed in the article 2015-11-10T20:34:55Z shka: but it is easy to say post factum 2015-11-10T20:35:37Z Bicyclidine: well, yeah, it would require some pretty close familiarity with IEEE to come up with in the first place 2015-11-10T20:35:51Z Bicyclidine: which is why it was published in quake three instead of some article 2015-11-10T20:36:21Z shka: well, what i find interesting 2015-11-10T20:37:10Z Bicyclidine: historical investigation* 2015-11-10T20:37:14Z jasom: Bicyclidine: many people independently came upon that approximation 2015-11-10T20:37:31Z Bicyclidine: that particular one? i thought the exact constant varied 2015-11-10T20:37:52Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:38:06Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:38:08Z jasom: Bicyclidine: possibly 2015-11-10T20:40:08Z Lord_Nightmare: iirc it predates quake 3, and comes from next and other places 2015-11-10T20:40:10Z shka: well, computer graphics… ;-) 2015-11-10T20:40:34Z Bicyclidine: let's see, taylor series for sqrt(x) at x = 1 is 1 + (x-1)/2 + O(x²), so if you're halving the exponent anyway you can just do that to the mantissa as well 2015-11-10T20:40:45Z Bicyclidine: though there are certainly better approximations than taylor 2015-11-10T20:41:34Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-10T20:43:26Z jasom: I wonder how many rounds of newton's method you save by doing something like this rather than just halving the exponent 2015-11-10T20:44:21Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:44:26Z Bicyclidine: oh, the mantissa is actualy 1.bits anyway, that makes it super easy i think 2015-11-10T20:44:50Z jasom: yup 2015-11-10T20:45:06Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:45:12Z jasom: well as long as it's not a denormal 2015-11-10T20:46:04Z Bicyclidine: also i'm wrong and it doesn't use anything like taylor series anyway 2015-11-10T20:46:40Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T20:46:56Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:48:46Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-10T20:48:58Z theos joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:51:29Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T20:52:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-10T20:53:13Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-10T20:56:12Z sheilong: quit 2015-11-10T20:56:16Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-11-10T20:59:58Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-10T21:00:48Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:03:00Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-10T21:03:58Z eni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T21:06:36Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T21:07:03Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:07:32Z tetheno left #lisp 2015-11-10T21:08:24Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T21:08:40Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:09:12Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T21:10:15Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T21:11:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:13:15Z baboon` joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:13:27Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:13:50Z ryu0: boy, talk about a bit of a naming clash... 2015-11-10T21:14:20Z ryu0: first returns the car of the first element, but last returns the last cell... 2015-11-10T21:14:29Z ryu0: heh. 2015-11-10T21:15:36Z Shinmera: Well the result of LAST is useful because then you can change the tail. 2015-11-10T21:15:52Z ryu0: i see that. it's just not quite what i expected. 2015-11-10T21:16:02Z Shinmera: It is a common pitfall, yes. 2015-11-10T21:16:51Z Shinmera: It's probably for historical reasons. 2015-11-10T21:16:53Z ryu0: i may as well throw it into the same group as 'rest'. returns the next cell in a list. 2015-11-10T21:17:03Z ryu0: or cdr even. 2015-11-10T21:17:12Z Shinmera: REST and CDR are equivalent, but yes. 2015-11-10T21:17:19Z Shinmera: For FIRST and friends you can use NTHCDR 2015-11-10T21:17:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:17:39Z ryu0: yea, that would be more readable. 2015-11-10T21:18:02Z ryu0: hm. let's see what functions work like cdr only... 2015-11-10T21:18:04Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:18:09Z ryu0: nthcdr, rest, last, ... 2015-11-10T21:18:10Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T21:18:24Z baboon`: hello, I'm going through lisp-koans and there's something I don't understand: I'm asked to make a "transpose" function, in the form `(defun transpose (L) (apply #'mapcar (cons #'list L)))` -- why the `cons`? this works just fine: `(defun transpose (L) (apply #'mapcar #'list L))` 2015-11-10T21:18:48Z Bicyclidine: because whoever wrote your koans was unaware of that detail of how apply works 2015-11-10T21:19:17Z dlowe: also, I would have used list* there to convey intent 2015-11-10T21:20:40Z baboon`: similarly, why the `apply`? 2015-11-10T21:21:08Z Bicyclidine: (mapcar #'list l) does not do the same thing as (apply #'mapcar #'list l) 2015-11-10T21:21:11Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T21:21:38Z baboon`: yes, I noticed that, I'm guessing it is because apply unpacks L into its elements 2015-11-10T21:22:14Z baboon`: although in other languages, like ruby, I'd use a splat operator 2015-11-10T21:22:43Z baboon`: or am I just getting confused here? 2015-11-10T21:23:13Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T21:23:14Z Bicyclidine: (mapcar #'list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) => (((1 2 3) (4 5 6))), but (apply #'mapcar #'list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) = (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) => ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) 2015-11-10T21:23:27Z Bicyclidine: dunno what a splat operator is 2015-11-10T21:23:36Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:23:48Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T21:24:13Z Bicyclidine: it looks like it does a whole bunch of junk roughly analogous. 2015-11-10T21:25:08Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it looks like "foo *bar" is basically the same as (apply foo bar). 2015-11-10T21:28:36Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-10T21:28:48Z ryu0: the gentle book keeps calling some functons "symmetrical". is this like the commutative property of some arithmetic operations? it appears that the book means symmetrical to mean that the order of inputs does not change the return value. 2015-11-10T21:29:14Z Bicyclidine: example? 2015-11-10T21:29:31Z ryu0: sec. 2015-11-10T21:29:50Z ryu0: (union '(a b c) '(b c d)) 2015-11-10T21:29:57Z ryu0: set functions is where it mentions it. 2015-11-10T21:30:18Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i'd call that commutativity. 2015-11-10T21:31:39Z Bicyclidine: though the results are only guaranteed to be equal as sets in that case. 2015-11-10T21:31:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:31:52Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:33:03Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T21:34:12Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:37:36Z baboon`: Bicyclidine, ah, ok, I guess apply is the equivalent of a splat operator, except it doesn't add additional syntax to the language. Thank you 2015-11-10T21:38:45Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-10T21:39:20Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:39:52Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T21:40:03Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-10T21:44:39Z pjb: ryu0: first returns the car of the first CELL, but last returns the last cell... 2015-11-10T21:45:03Z pjb: the car of the first cell is the first element of the list. 2015-11-10T21:45:58Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T21:47:19Z pjb: ryu0: rest is different, and correctly named, since the rest of the list is stored in the cdr of the first cell. 2015-11-10T21:47:31Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:47:50Z pjb: list = (cons first rest). 2015-11-10T21:48:58Z pjb: ryu0: notice that you would prefer to use LIST* instead of CONS to build lists: (list* first rest); (list* 1 2 3 '(4 5 6)) #| --> (1 2 3 4 5 6) |# 2015-11-10T21:49:20Z pjb: also, use endp instead of null when processing (proper)lists. 2015-11-10T21:50:09Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-10T21:51:28Z pjb: Bicyclidine: Symmetric functions are more than commutative. They're "hypercommutative". http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SymmetricFunction.html 2015-11-10T21:52:31Z pjb: Bicyclidine: Notice that CL:+ is not really symmetric: implementations can give different results for different permutations of the arguments. 2015-11-10T21:52:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T21:52:56Z pjb: Bicyclidine: but max and min are symmetric: (max 1 2 3) = (max 1 3 2) = (max 3 1 2) etc. 2015-11-10T21:53:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-10T21:54:22Z Bicyclidine: (max 1.0 1) and (max 1 1.0) are different here, depending on the equality 2015-11-10T21:55:39Z pjb: (+ 10000000000000000000000000000000 most-positive-single-float 10000000000000000000000000000000) --> 3.4028235E+38 2015-11-10T21:55:39Z pjb: 2015-11-10T21:55:40Z pjb: (+ 10000000000000000000000000000000 10000000000000000000000000000000 most-positive-single-float ) ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-10T21:56:16Z pjb: Bicyclidine: oops, you're right, "For max, the implementation has the choice of returning the largest argument as is or applying the rules of floating-point contagion," 2015-11-10T21:57:02Z pjb: Bicyclidine: so you can see that the notion of symmetric function is a strong notion, and it's not obvious to find one in CL… 2015-11-10T21:57:20Z Bicyclidine: sure 2015-11-10T22:02:36Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T22:03:14Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:06:54Z ryu0: pjb: i get that. i just was expecting last to return the last element, not the last cell. the naming semantics aren't the same. 2015-11-10T22:07:19Z ryu0: i guess C similar problems with naming consistency. 2015-11-10T22:07:22Z ryu0: has* 2015-11-10T22:08:28Z ryu0: heh. reminds me of how fgets and fprintf position the FILE * differently. 2015-11-10T22:08:59Z ryu0: i guess you just get used to the quirks of your language. 2015-11-10T22:09:42Z jasom: ryu0: getting the first cons-cell of a list is the identity operation 2015-11-10T22:10:12Z ryu0: identity operation? 2015-11-10T22:10:28Z blubjr: (lambda (x) x) 2015-11-10T22:10:33Z jasom: ryu0: the first cons-cell of a list is the same thing as the list 2015-11-10T22:10:50Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-10T22:10:50Z jasom: for certain definitions of "same" of course 2015-11-10T22:11:24Z ryu0: it doesn't return the first cell because it would be a useless function. 2015-11-10T22:11:27Z ryu0: a no-op. 2015-11-10T22:11:28Z jasom: right 2015-11-10T22:11:56Z jasom: also first does *not* return the car of the first element of a list; it returns the first element in the list, which is the car of the cons-cell 2015-11-10T22:12:17Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:12:30Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-10T22:13:16Z ryu0: huh. i wonder how a function like reverse works optimally... since cons cells are singly linked... 2015-11-10T22:13:48Z jasom: ryu0: reverse is easy, just loop over the list and build up a new list like a stack 2015-11-10T22:14:04Z ryu0: oh. right. 2015-11-10T22:14:27Z jasom: nreverse is a bit more tricky to do efficiently 2015-11-10T22:15:25Z jasom: but if you leave the CARs untouched, you can do a similar thing building it up like a stack just modifying the CDRs 2015-11-10T22:15:41Z ryu0: i've been thinking about cons. am i correct in thinking that it can create lists that overlap? 2015-11-10T22:15:53Z ryu0: in terms of memory area. 2015-11-10T22:15:59Z jasom: ryu0: yes, but the tails must all be the same 2015-11-10T22:16:05Z jasom: ryu0: it can also create circular lists 2015-11-10T22:16:16Z ryu0: yes, my book mentioned that. 2015-11-10T22:16:25Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:17:08Z jasom: The classic simple implementation of lexical scopes uses this; just do an alist or plist for the scope and a child scope is just prepended 2015-11-10T22:18:10Z ryu0: so, if the shared tail is modified, the lists constructed by cons will have a different tail then? 2015-11-10T22:18:46Z ryu0: hm. i'll give this a try. 2015-11-10T22:18:48Z jasom: correct 2015-11-10T22:18:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:19:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:19:42Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-11-10T22:19:47Z blubjr: playing in a repl is a fantastic way to get your bearings 2015-11-10T22:20:22Z ryu0: yep. works. as expected... 2015-11-10T22:20:51Z ryu0: might be useful if you data has a shared tail... 2015-11-10T22:20:56Z ryu0: your* 2015-11-10T22:21:01Z jasom: ryu0: in fact, other than the fact that lisp has a lot of nice lisp manipulation functions, sharing-structure is the one of the few advantages lists have over other structures for representing data 2015-11-10T22:21:10Z jasom: s/nice lisp/nice list/ 2015-11-10T22:21:33Z ryu0: but lists normally do not overlap? 2015-11-10T22:21:59Z jasom: ryu0: depends on your definition of "normally" 2015-11-10T22:22:15Z ryu0: only if you go out your way to do it? 2015-11-10T22:22:19Z Xach: ryu0: it is sometimes put in terms of "shared structure" 2015-11-10T22:22:31Z Xach: ryu0: if you have a list, and you use (cdr list), the result of CDR shares structure with the original list 2015-11-10T22:22:43Z ryu0: ah, right. 2015-11-10T22:22:46Z Xach: because it is a tail of the original list 2015-11-10T22:22:54Z ryu0: aka, rest. 2015-11-10T22:23:02Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:23:32Z ryu0: jeez. glad i took that graph theory course. 2015-11-10T22:23:36Z ryu0: finally coming in handy. 2015-11-10T22:23:54Z jasom: graph theory is probably the most useful of my theory courses from college 2015-11-10T22:24:33Z ryu0: CL sure offers more opportunities to use math theory than C ever did for me... 2015-11-10T22:25:26Z jasom: I use it in C too; a lot more time in C is spent doing bookkeeping though, so as a fraction of time it's likely less. 2015-11-10T22:26:21Z ryu0: i learned C first, but i wouldn't recommend it beginners. i get the feeling now CL or such is a better starting language... 2015-11-10T22:26:24Z jasom: The webserver I'm currently maintaining uses a finite-state-machine to track the status of each connection, as a really simple example. 2015-11-10T22:27:12Z jasom: ryu0: CL is a better starting language with a teacher, but there's a dearth of good free online material for people starting from scratch; more popular languages have more easily findable tutorials. 2015-11-10T22:27:47Z ryu0: popularity never really mattered to me. 2015-11-10T22:27:58Z jasom: ryu0: then you're in the right place :) 2015-11-10T22:28:18Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:28:23Z ryu0: popular doesn't equal good. 2015-11-10T22:28:53Z ryu0: i'm reluctant to touch the newest languages. what's wrong with the older ones that are proven? 2015-11-10T22:29:23Z dkcl quit (Quit: :o) 2015-11-10T22:30:00Z Xach: a lot of money and research can make things pretty nice. 2015-11-10T22:30:20Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:30:30Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T22:30:32Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:30:42Z ryu0: yea, but it often seems like the newest don't really offer much over the older languages that have reached a solid maturity. 2015-11-10T22:30:57Z ryu0: perhaps i'm wrong but... 2015-11-10T22:31:04Z Xach: i wouldn't mind multiple multibillion dollar companies fighting hard to make common lisp better 2015-11-10T22:31:04Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:31:19Z Xach: instead that is what javascript is 2015-11-10T22:31:26Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T22:31:39Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:31:40Z ryu0: i remember a joke... 2015-11-10T22:31:43Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-10T22:31:47Z ryu0: there's the languages everyone complains about. 2015-11-10T22:31:52Z ryu0: and there's the languages no one uses. 2015-11-10T22:31:54Z ryu0: <_< 2015-11-10T22:31:56Z jasom: yup 2015-11-10T22:32:43Z jasom: But there is a long tail of unpopular languages... I met two professional APL developers and there's apparently still 3 commercial APL compiler vendors even. 2015-11-10T22:32:46Z pjb: ryu0: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf 2015-11-10T22:32:50Z ryu0: if i end up learning another imperative language, it'll have to be something with stronger safeties than C. 2015-11-10T22:33:07Z pillton: jasom: APL? 2015-11-10T22:33:18Z ryu0: Array Programming Language. 2015-11-10T22:33:25Z ryu0: it's a weird paradigm. 2015-11-10T22:33:40Z ryu0: it's not the only one of its kind. 2015-11-10T22:33:48Z pjb: ryu0: Modula-2 is a good alternative to C. Modula-3 is a good alternative to C++. 2015-11-10T22:33:58Z ryu0: but, iirc, it primarily works with vectors / arrays objects. 2015-11-10T22:34:36Z opc0de quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:34:39Z ryu0: i imagine it's probably super useful for some kinds of programming. 2015-11-10T22:35:28Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:35:32Z Walex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T22:35:36Z Nikotiini: It might be the most dense language ever created 2015-11-10T22:35:42Z pjb: ryu0: notice that we have the functions LDIFF and TAILP which allows you to easily use the representation of lists as a pairs of list and tail. This is a representation that is often used in Prolog, since it has good functional properties. 2015-11-10T22:36:36Z opcode joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:36:57Z ryu0: pjb: huh. i had been considering D or such. no idea for sure. i want to finish my adventure with CL and such before i touch another imperative language. 2015-11-10T22:37:21Z ryu0: excuse, primarily imperative. 2015-11-10T22:37:28Z ryu0: me* 2015-11-10T22:39:07Z ryu0: pjb: i found it interesting how let and let* differ significantly. let* binds variables in a manner like i would expect from C, but let does it in a manner where the let variables cannot reference each other. 2015-11-10T22:39:22Z pjb: C actually only does LET*. 2015-11-10T22:39:26Z ryu0: indeed. 2015-11-10T22:40:01Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T22:40:12Z ryu0: i suppose the restriction does have a use for making it impossible for variables to depend on each other. 2015-11-10T22:40:44Z ryu0: pjb: is there any other reason to prefer one to the other? 2015-11-10T22:41:00Z pjb: None. 2015-11-10T22:41:02Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:41:15Z ryu0: ah. k. i wasn't sure if one was more efficient or something. 2015-11-10T22:41:28Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-10T22:41:58Z pjb: efficiency is largely orthogonal. let forms can often be entirely optimized out, notably when you don't mutate the variables. 2015-11-10T22:42:00Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:42:15Z pjb: Then you use let or let* just as renaming mechanisms like in Haskell. 2015-11-10T22:43:16Z ryu0: i've been seeing a pattern for when to quote and when not to... it appears you never want to when using macros... 2015-11-10T22:43:32Z opcode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:43:35Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:43:39Z pjb: You use quote for literal objects. 2015-11-10T22:43:55Z pjb: "in-line" constants. 2015-11-10T22:43:59Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:44:06Z opcode joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:44:17Z ryu0: primarily for lists and symbols? 2015-11-10T22:44:31Z pjb: You would write: (+ '4 '5) and (concatenate 'string '"Hello" '#(#\space) '"world") 2015-11-10T22:45:03Z ryu0: pound sign? i have yet to see what used by gentle. 2015-11-10T22:45:03Z pjb: but since any non-symbol atom is self-evaluating, we don't need to quote those literal objects. 2015-11-10T22:45:18Z pjb: #(is a vector of 6 elements) 2015-11-10T22:45:22Z pjb: a literal vector. 2015-11-10T22:45:33Z ryu0: so # is used for quoting some kinds of objects? 2015-11-10T22:45:39Z pjb: No. 2015-11-10T22:45:52Z ryu0: huh... i'll get to it eventually. 2015-11-10T22:45:53Z pjb: lisp syntax is specified and implemented using reader macros. 2015-11-10T22:46:16Z pjb: the lisp reader knows only how to scan symbols, integers, ratio and floating point numbers. 2015-11-10T22:46:42Z pjb: All the rest of the lisp syntax is implemented with customizable functions, stored in a table of "reader macros". 2015-11-10T22:46:45Z ryu0: is that why when you use macros you don't need to quote arguments? because they are already taken literally? 2015-11-10T22:47:10Z pjb: One of the standard reader macro is a "dispatching reader macro" in that it uses a secondary table. 2015-11-10T22:47:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-10T22:47:22Z pjb: This is not macros, this is reader macros. 2015-11-10T22:47:27Z pjb: Nothing in common with macros. 2015-11-10T22:47:34Z ryu0: okay... 2015-11-10T22:47:49Z oGMo: ryu0: no, but it is why when you use a macro which doesn't evaluate arguments, you don't need to do anything special to #() and similar ;) 2015-11-10T22:48:01Z pjb: So the reader macro for #\# is a dispatching function it reads an optional integer argument, and the first non-digit character is used to index the secondary table. 2015-11-10T22:48:36Z ryu0: ugh. this is over my head currently. 2015-11-10T22:48:44Z ryu0: lol 2015-11-10T22:48:59Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:49:15Z pjb: #\ #' #< #( #P #B #C #R #S #X are some of those dispatching reader macros. 2015-11-10T22:49:28Z blubjr: functions all have their arguments evaluated before the function body gets them. macros can control how many times or if their arguments are evaluated 2015-11-10T22:49:33Z oGMo: ryu0: it's all really easy. the reader goes by character and looks up each one in a table, and calls a function if it's registered. # has _another_ table for characters that follow it. 2015-11-10T22:49:34Z pjb: #\x reads the character "x". 2015-11-10T22:49:41Z pjb: #'x reads as (cl:function x) 2015-11-10T22:49:41Z blubjr: quote suppresses one evaluation 2015-11-10T22:49:51Z ryu0: are "reader macros" a bit like CPP macros at all? 2015-11-10T22:49:51Z pjb: #< signals an unreadable error. 2015-11-10T22:49:59Z oGMo: ryu0: not even a little 2015-11-10T22:50:00Z blubjr: no 2015-11-10T22:50:03Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-10T22:50:08Z Dasyatid1 left #lisp 2015-11-10T22:50:09Z pjb: #( reads a vector. 2015-11-10T22:50:21Z pjb: #A reads an array #2A((1 2) (3 4)) is a 2x2 matrix. 2015-11-10T22:50:31Z ryu0: so reader macros control how the source code is parsed? 2015-11-10T22:50:36Z ryu0: or interpreted? 2015-11-10T22:50:46Z blubjr: yes 2015-11-10T22:51:00Z pjb: #B101010 #o52 #x2A #10r42 read integers in various bases. 2015-11-10T22:51:08Z pjb: ryu0: scanned. 2015-11-10T22:51:30Z pjb: But you can indeed write reader macros to parse different syntax, and return whole parse trees. 2015-11-10T22:51:53Z ryu0: is this how parsers for other languages can be implemented in CL? 2015-11-10T22:51:59Z pjb: #P"/reads/a/pathname" 2015-11-10T22:52:11Z pjb: #S(point :x 42 :y 33) a structure. 2015-11-10T22:52:22Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-10T22:52:23Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T22:52:32Z ryu0: structure? like a C struct in some ways? 2015-11-10T22:52:43Z pjb: If you implement your parser as a CL reader macro, then you can mix the parse tree of the other language with lisp data and programs. 2015-11-10T22:52:50Z pjb: Yes. defstruct. 2015-11-10T22:53:25Z ryu0: huh. interesting. 2015-11-10T22:53:41Z pjb: #C(0 1) = i for complex numbers too. 2015-11-10T22:54:22Z ryu0: so reader macros extend the scanner to support more ways of creating objects? 2015-11-10T22:55:00Z pjb: ryu0: those are the dispatching reader macro. The normal reader macros are: ( ; " ' ` 2015-11-10T22:55:10Z pjb: there are also ) and , but those to only signal errors. 2015-11-10T22:55:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:55:18Z ryu0: those are builtin reader macros? 2015-11-10T22:55:27Z pjb: So when you read a list (a b c), it's actually read by a customizable reader macro! 2015-11-10T22:55:28Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T22:55:36Z pjb: Same as when you read "hello" 2015-11-10T22:55:40Z pjb: ; or a comment 2015-11-10T22:55:53Z pjb: Oh, dispatching reader macro: #| comments #| in comments |# |# 2015-11-10T22:55:58Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T22:55:59Z ryu0: in other words, you can override how your source code is interpreted? 2015-11-10T22:56:06Z pjb: How it's READ. 2015-11-10T22:56:15Z ryu0: okay. 2015-11-10T22:56:15Z pjb: or "scanned". 2015-11-10T22:56:25Z pjb: well scanned/parsed. 2015-11-10T22:56:37Z ryu0: control how it is scanned into the Lisp machine? 2015-11-10T22:56:59Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-10T22:57:41Z pjb: For example, when I program in ccl on MacOSX, I have a reader macro [ to read Objective-C -like message sendings: [[NSApplication sharedApplication] windows] --> #", "") (#x2C502A10)> 2015-11-10T22:58:00Z pjb: '[[NSApplication sharedApplication] windows] --> (objc:send (objc:send ns:ns-application 'shared-application) 'windows) 2015-11-10T22:58:32Z ryu0: so the reader macro rewrites it into a Lisp expression? 2015-11-10T22:58:45Z ryu0: or, transforms it? 2015-11-10T22:58:57Z ryu0: or is that just the equalivalent version? 2015-11-10T22:59:41Z p_l: ryu0: a reader macro tells reader how to read certain things from textual representation into CL structure 2015-11-10T23:00:17Z ryu0: so it could also be used to implement serialization? 2015-11-10T23:00:19Z csziacobus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:01:09Z ryu0: it sounds like it could be used to read other ways of representing data. 2015-11-10T23:01:27Z pjb: ryu0: it scans and parses some input text and builds a lisp sexps. 2015-11-10T23:01:58Z pjb: It's a deserialization. You'd write a print-object method to implement the serialization. 2015-11-10T23:02:15Z ryu0: so it acts as a means of translating a foreign representation to a native one? 2015-11-10T23:02:26Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-10T23:04:18Z ryu0: and this is what some of the builtin reader macros do? such as the number bases? huh. #xff is hexadecimal. 2015-11-10T23:04:34Z ryu0: almost looks like 0xff from C. 2015-11-10T23:04:36Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-10T23:04:52Z Xach: (= #xFF #b11111111) => t 2015-11-10T23:05:14Z ryu0: okay, it makes sense now i suppose. i take it the normal reader only understands base 10? 2015-11-10T23:05:27Z pjb: Now 0xff starts with a 0, and by default, 0 starts a real or a symbol token parsed by the lisp reader algorithm. 2015-11-10T23:05:51Z Xach: ryu0: "normal" meaning just plain numbers? 2015-11-10T23:05:56Z ryu0: like 123. 2015-11-10T23:06:00Z ryu0: integers. 2015-11-10T23:06:02Z ryu0: etc. 2015-11-10T23:06:08Z pjb: If you wanted to define a reader macro on #\0 to be able to parse 0xff, you would also have to ensure that you can still read 0123 0/1 0.31 0hello 0pack:sym. 2015-11-10T23:06:16Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:06:49Z ryu0: this must be part of why they say CL is the programmable programming language... 2015-11-10T23:06:57Z pjb: No, normal integers can also be interpreted in other bases (setf *read-base* 8) 42 --> 34 2015-11-10T23:07:01Z pjb: 42. --> 42 2015-11-10T23:07:31Z pjb: Notice how the syntax 42. reads an integer in base ten, whatever the value of *read-base*. 2015-11-10T23:08:07Z ryu0: so the default reader interprets plain numbers in the base system defined by *read-base*? 2015-11-10T23:08:16Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-10T23:08:36Z pjb: And since what is not in that base is interpreted as a symbol, you can have surprising results. 2015-11-10T23:08:37Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T23:08:56Z pjb: '90 --> |90| 2015-11-10T23:09:02Z pjb: a symbol named "90". 2015-11-10T23:09:17Z ryu0: because 9 is outside of base 8? 2015-11-10T23:09:22Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-10T23:09:53Z ryu0: i could see bugs arising if you change the read-base careless... 2015-11-10T23:10:07Z ryu0: carelessly. 2015-11-10T23:10:35Z ryu0: since it appears to change what is acceptable as numbers and symbols. 2015-11-10T23:10:38Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-10T23:10:40Z pjb: Well, one problem is that libraries don't set their own *read-base*, so indeed if you change it, and compile a library, it will use wrong integers or have symbols instead. 2015-11-10T23:11:03Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:11:15Z pjb: This is not the only problem in the current situation, where libraries assume the default values for a lot of variables… 2015-11-10T23:11:20Z blubjr: being a special variable helps 2015-11-10T23:11:29Z ryu0: so if you change it, it should be limited in scope via, say, let? 2015-11-10T23:11:40Z pjb: preferably, yes. 2015-11-10T23:11:56Z ryu0: seems easier to just use a reader macro. 2015-11-10T23:12:00Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:12:07Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:12:10Z pjb: You could always add a dot to all your integers. 2015-11-10T23:12:30Z pjb: 42. 33. no ambiguity there. floating points and ratios are always in base ten. 2015-11-10T23:12:30Z ryu0: i take it that 'dispatch' reader macros tend to start with #? is this always true? 2015-11-10T23:12:45Z Bicyclidine: for standard ones it is, but you can define dispatches with other characters. 2015-11-10T23:12:59Z ryu0: so, there is no forced convention then. 2015-11-10T23:13:21Z pjb: In the worst cases, you can put a reader macro on all the characters! 2015-11-10T23:13:23Z ryu0: pjb: what defines the difference between a normal and dispatch reader macro? 2015-11-10T23:13:40Z Bicyclidine: also, the #r reader macro can be used for different bases without worrying about *read-base*. 2015-11-10T23:13:41Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:13:50Z pjb: This was used once, but nowadays we have char-code-limit #| --> 1114112 |# characters, and some implementations use an a-list for the readtable… 2015-11-10T23:14:38Z Bicyclidine: dispatch reader macros are used in the form [a character] [an integer] [a sub character] [anything], and the dispatch reader macro function gets the integer as an argument. 2015-11-10T23:15:00Z Bicyclidine: like, #1=(4), # is the first character, 1 is the integer, = is the sub character, (4) is the anything. 2015-11-10T23:15:20Z ryu0: #xff 2015-11-10T23:15:24Z ryu0: ? 2015-11-10T23:15:34Z Bicyclidine: the integer is optional, yes. 2015-11-10T23:15:43Z ryu0: so then #xff has... 2015-11-10T23:15:53Z pjb: # and x 2015-11-10T23:15:54Z ryu0: # -> first, x -> sub char, ff -> anything ? 2015-11-10T23:16:00Z Bicyclidine: mmhm. 2015-11-10T23:16:01Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-10T23:16:13Z ryu0: is the anything like the argument then to the macro? 2015-11-10T23:16:26Z ryu0: reader macro. 2015-11-10T23:16:29Z Bicyclidine: no, well, you should look at how reader macros are implemented. 2015-11-10T23:16:51Z p_l: ryu0: reader macros essentially get access to the input stream 2015-11-10T23:16:51Z ryu0: perhaps in time. i assume this is part of PCL? 2015-11-10T23:16:51Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:16:59Z Bicyclidine: dunno if it's in pcl. 2015-11-10T23:17:34Z ryu0: i get the impression i am going to learn a great deal about macros and such if i want to make good use of CL. 2015-11-10T23:17:46Z Nikotiini: ryu0: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 2015-11-10T23:17:50Z Bicyclidine: macros, yeah. reader macros, eh. 2015-11-10T23:17:54Z pjb: a reader macro is a function: (lambda (stream char) …) and a dispatching reader macro is a function(lambda (stream subchar argument) …) 2015-11-10T23:18:08Z pjb: theee is left on the stream and shall be read and parsed by the reader macro function. 2015-11-10T23:18:32Z ryu0: reader macros sound like a great way to parse foreign languages. 2015-11-10T23:18:48Z p_l: ryu0: not really 2015-11-10T23:18:50Z pjb: They are. 2015-11-10T23:18:51Z ryu0: oh? 2015-11-10T23:19:00Z p_l: well, depends on language 2015-11-10T23:19:09Z pjb: And how you want to integrate it with lisp. 2015-11-10T23:19:13Z p_l: yep 2015-11-10T23:19:20Z pjb: But basically yes, you can do a lot with reader macros. 2015-11-10T23:19:42Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-10T23:20:03Z ryu0: huh. k. 2015-11-10T23:20:23Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:20:25Z ryu0: Oh! so that's it. 2015-11-10T23:20:25Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:20:37Z p_l: ryu0: a common theme in CL will be "you have those awesome tools - use them wisely" ;) 2015-11-10T23:20:47Z pjb: For a good example, have a look at Vacietis. 2015-11-10T23:21:01Z pjb: Of course, a lot of abuse is possible in lisp. 2015-11-10T23:21:08Z ryu0: reader macros, macros, and functions do work at different stages of the read, compile, and execute process. 2015-11-10T23:21:19Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-10T23:23:04Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:24:00Z ryu0: so then ' is a normal reader macro used to literally pass something to the compiler stage unaltered? 2015-11-10T23:24:13Z pjb: Indeed. ''x #| --> 'x |# 2015-11-10T23:24:21Z Bicyclidine: er, no 2015-11-10T23:24:22Z pjb: (first ''x) #| --> quote |# 2015-11-10T23:24:25Z ryu0: ? 2015-11-10T23:24:25Z pjb: (second ''x) #| --> x |# 2015-11-10T23:24:29Z jasom: ryu0: no, ' is a normal reader macro that wraps whatever follows it with QUOTE 2015-11-10T23:24:34Z jasom: 'x => (quote x) 2015-11-10T23:24:35Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:24:47Z pjb: THe lisp printer also plays tricks: (print '(quote x)) #| 'x |# 2015-11-10T23:24:58Z p_l: ryu0: it was probably mentioned already, but remember: READ means TEXT -> Datastructure. COMPILE is Datastructure -> Code. Etc. :) 2015-11-10T23:25:05Z pjb: (print '(function x)) #| #'x |# 2015-11-10T23:25:19Z pjb: and print is data structure -> text. 2015-11-10T23:25:28Z p_l: ryu0: and there's also compiler macros 2015-11-10T23:25:35Z jasom: clhs quote 2015-11-10T23:25:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 2015-11-10T23:25:38Z pjb: and make-load-form :-) 2015-11-10T23:25:39Z ryu0: which is what quote is? 2015-11-10T23:25:43Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-10T23:26:24Z pjb: ryu0: for example, you can define a package where usual CL operators are shadowed and operators with the same name are defined differently. 2015-11-10T23:26:47Z ryu0: so it's used so the compiler doesn't mistakenly try to treat it like a function call? 2015-11-10T23:27:11Z ryu0: say, '(1 2) ? 2015-11-10T23:27:16Z jasom: ryu0: it prevents any evaluation 2015-11-10T23:27:26Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T23:27:27Z jasom: e.g. (let ((x 3)) 'x) => x 2015-11-10T23:27:36Z jasom: (let ((x 3)) x) => 3 2015-11-10T23:28:00Z ryu0: then how does lisp know to treat a quoted list as a list? 2015-11-10T23:28:02Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T23:28:16Z jasom: ryu0: see the page I linked from lispworks 2015-11-10T23:28:19Z ryu0: what stage does that occur at? 2015-11-10T23:28:36Z pjb: (in-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.invoice.invoice) (setf *readtable* *currency-readtable*) (+ #m12.43 #m100.57) --> 113.00 EUR (* 1.209 #m12.43) --> 15.03 EUR 2015-11-10T23:28:40Z jasom: ryu0: QUOTE is a special operator and special operators are part of the evlauation process 2015-11-10T23:28:51Z zlrth joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:29:10Z pjb: Notice: 1- #m12.43 --> 12.43 EUR (type-of #m12.43) --> AMOUNT 2015-11-10T23:29:10Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T23:29:26Z pjb: 2- + and * work on those AMOUNT types! 2015-11-10T23:29:33Z pjb: they are not CL:+ or CL:*. 2015-11-10T23:30:38Z ryu0: hm. 2015-11-10T23:30:45Z jasom: ryu0: so I could have written that previous example (let ((x 3)) (quote x)) => x 2015-11-10T23:31:12Z jasom: 'x expands to (quote x) at READ time 2015-11-10T23:31:16Z ryu0: i see that. by suppressing evaluation, it remains a symbol? 2015-11-10T23:31:26Z jasom: (quote x) evaluates to x at evaluation time 2015-11-10T23:31:30Z pjb: (list #840m12.42 #m12.42) --> (12.42 USD 12.42 EUR) (+ #840m12.42 #m12.42) MULTI-CURRENCY-ERROR: (+ 12.42 USD, 12.42 EUR) 2015-11-10T23:31:45Z jasom: ryu0: correct 2015-11-10T23:32:10Z ryu0: and '() is used to prevent evaluation of a list as a function call? 2015-11-10T23:32:18Z jasom: ryu0: right 2015-11-10T23:32:21Z pjb: there's no evaluation suppression really, there's simply no evaluation of the arguments of the special operator quote. 2015-11-10T23:32:22Z ryu0: instead it's passed literally as a list? 2015-11-10T23:32:58Z ryu0: yea, i think i'm going to be reading a lot of lisp books after i clear the beginners material... 2015-11-10T23:33:00Z jasom: ' will evaluate to 2015-11-10T23:33:03Z pjb: ryu0: but now, since () is read as CL:NIL and CL:NIL evaluates as CL:NIL that gives the same result as (CL:QUOTE CL:NIL) so the quote is really useless. 2015-11-10T23:33:11Z pjb: nil 'nil () '() all evaluate to the same CL:NIL. 2015-11-10T23:33:23Z pjb: But for the human reader, we mean different conotations: 2015-11-10T23:33:26Z pjb: nil is false. 2015-11-10T23:33:31Z pjb: 'nil is the symbol nil. 2015-11-10T23:33:31Z ryu0: also, the empty list. 2015-11-10T23:33:38Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-10T23:33:39Z pjb: () is an empty code list . 2015-11-10T23:33:44Z pjb: '() is an empty data list. 2015-11-10T23:33:52Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:34:31Z pjb: (defun x () "return a list containing a boolean, a symbol and a list" (list nil 'nil '())) #| --> x |# (x) #| --> (nil nil nil) |# 2015-11-10T23:35:04Z ryu0: what's with this notation where you used #| |# pairs? 2015-11-10T23:35:09Z pjb: (quote (defun x () (list nil 'nil '()))) #| --> (defun x nil (list nil 'nil 'nil)) |# 2015-11-10T23:35:15Z pjb: The printer is not that smart. 2015-11-10T23:35:29Z jasom: ryu0: #| this is a comment like a /* comment in c */ |# 2015-11-10T23:35:43Z ryu0: oh, block comments. 2015-11-10T23:35:50Z ryu0: implemented as a reader macro? 2015-11-10T23:35:51Z pjb: ryu0: I have an emacs command in erc to evaluate expressions. It displays the outputt of the expression in a comment, and the results after --> 2015-11-10T23:35:52Z jasom: ryu0: though unlike in c #| |# can nest 2015-11-10T23:35:55Z jasom: ryu0: yup 2015-11-10T23:36:01Z pjb: (values (print 1) 2) #| 1 --> 1 ; 2 |# 2015-11-10T23:36:13Z pjb: print prints 1, and values returns 1 and 2. 2015-11-10T23:36:23Z ryu0: heh. reminds me of using #if 0 #endif pairs for CPP 'comments' 2015-11-10T23:36:32Z pjb: #+ #- do that 2015-11-10T23:36:47Z jasom: pjb: not quite 2015-11-10T23:36:50Z ryu0: easy way to enable/disable a code block. 2015-11-10T23:36:51Z pjb: #+sbcl (do-something-in-sbcl) #-sbcl (do-something-else-in-normal-implementations) 2015-11-10T23:36:51Z jasom: clhs #+ 2015-11-10T23:36:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2015-11-10T23:37:32Z jasom: ryu0: you can use this for looking up reader macros, format specifiers and symbols from the standard library: http://www.xach.com/clhs?q= 2015-11-10T23:38:20Z ryu0: ... conditional... is this like conditional compilation from the CPP? 2015-11-10T23:38:31Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-10T23:38:35Z jasom: ryu0: right, and it happens at READ time 2015-11-10T23:38:55Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:39:09Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:39:10Z ryu0: so, CPP serves a similar roll to reader macros for CL. 2015-11-10T23:39:14Z ryu0: not identical but 2015-11-10T23:39:23Z ryu0: it changes the input before the compiler sees it. 2015-11-10T23:39:32Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:39:37Z Bicyclidine: macros do too 2015-11-10T23:39:56Z ryu0: so, there's 3 steps then? 2015-11-10T23:39:57Z jasom: right; lisp macros do this as well, but they operate on code that has already been read, so they get structured data rather than a bag of strings 2015-11-10T23:40:05Z jasom: READ, EVAL, PRINT 2015-11-10T23:40:08Z ryu0: reader macros -> macros -> compile? 2015-11-10T23:40:52Z jasom: where macros happen is slightly complicated 2015-11-10T23:40:59Z Bicyclidine: macros are part of the compile step, but they're generally expanded before the code is turned into assembly or whatever 2015-11-10T23:41:03Z pjb: reader macros -> macros -> compiler-macros -> compiler -> run-time 2015-11-10T23:41:21Z pjb: reader macros -> macros -> compiler-macros -> file-compiler -> fasl-file -> load-time -> run-time 2015-11-10T23:41:24Z nate_c joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:42:10Z pjb: eval-when let you do stuff at compilation time, or at load time of the fasl or at load time of the source: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) …) 2015-11-10T23:42:15Z pjb: :execute = load-time of the source. 2015-11-10T23:42:47Z pjb: So, it's a tad more sophisticated than the evaluation model of C. 2015-11-10T23:42:57Z ryu0: so, the reason you don't quote arguments to macros is because the reader-macro will expand that to a quote form, which is not what the macro expects? 2015-11-10T23:43:15Z jasom: ryu0: correct, the macro gets the raw form unevaluated 2015-11-10T23:43:25Z pjb: And this, without considering READ, EVAL or COMPILE which let you stack new read-time, new run-times or new compilation times anywhen! 2015-11-10T23:43:26Z jasom: ryu0: and it returns a form which will then be evaluated 2015-11-10T23:43:51Z ryu0: sounds a bit like CPP macros, but more capable. 2015-11-10T23:44:01Z jasom: ryu0: right 2015-11-10T23:44:27Z ryu0: produces a new source code to be evaluated (compiled) 2015-11-10T23:44:33Z jasom: ryu0: you can go a long way just knowing that macros are expanded sometime after read time, and some time before the code is executed 2015-11-10T23:45:02Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:45:25Z pjb: and indeed, macroexpansion can occur without any explicit compilation: (defun f (x) (+ 1 x)) (f 2) in the REPL implies that the macro defun has been expanded without a compile! 2015-11-10T23:45:35Z jasom: ryu0: but you can read all of chapter 3 of the hyperspec to get all of the nitty-gritty details 2015-11-10T23:45:36Z jasom: clhs 3 2015-11-10T23:45:36Z specbot: Evaluation and Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm 2015-11-10T23:45:40Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-10T23:46:05Z jasom: ryu0: note that much of it won't make sense until you are more familiar with lisp, but once you are comfortable with lisp it is very accessible (by far the most accessible language spec I've read) 2015-11-10T23:52:20Z pjb: You could write a reader macro φ and math functions such as (+ φ4.2km φ4.2cm) --> φ4200.042m 2015-11-10T23:53:02Z pjb: and: (/ φ72e5m φ1h) -> φ2e2m/s 2015-11-10T23:53:07Z mthom joined #lisp 2015-11-10T23:55:21Z jocuman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:57:47Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-10T23:58:16Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:02:29Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T00:03:12Z cagmz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:05:51Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:07:09Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:07:14Z cagmz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:09:36Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:12:23Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:13:07Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-11T00:15:04Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-11T00:15:59Z nate_c quit 2015-11-11T00:16:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:20:28Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:20:45Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-11T00:26:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:27:04Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T00:29:36Z ryu0: what is the file extension usually used for CL source code? .lsp? 2015-11-11T00:29:56Z Robdgreat: .lisp I thought 2015-11-11T00:30:02Z p_l: ryu0: .lisp is most common 2015-11-11T00:30:06Z ryu0: k. 2015-11-11T00:30:12Z p_l: sometimes you will encounter .cl 2015-11-11T00:30:47Z ryu0: appears vim recognizes all 3. 2015-11-11T00:30:57Z p_l: but .cl (rare) will be mostly in *old* code or code that involves one of the commercial implementations that had to run on MSDOS-related systems 2015-11-11T00:31:11Z p_l: .lsp is even rarer, though i think I encountered it once or twice 2015-11-11T00:31:12Z ryu0: due to the 8.3 filename format? 2015-11-11T00:31:15Z p_l: yes 2015-11-11T00:31:31Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T00:31:40Z p_l: I think .LSP might have shown up on VMS 2015-11-11T00:31:46Z ryu0: never programmed in DOS. doesn't seem relevant anymore now. 2015-11-11T00:34:48Z cagmz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T00:34:51Z p_l: yea, so you will rarely encounter extensions other than .lisp 2015-11-11T00:35:19Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:35:47Z pjb: Some old system also used .l ! 2015-11-11T00:35:49Z ryu0: gentle said comments extend from semicolon to the next carriage return. carriage return isn't used on unix source code normally. does it really mean the end of line? 2015-11-11T00:36:01Z pjb: ryu0: not CR. #\Newline 2015-11-11T00:36:01Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:36:15Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T00:36:15Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:36:18Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:36:18Z ryu0: the file's newline sequence? 2015-11-11T00:36:19Z pjb: In lisp, there's the notion of newline. Represented by the character #\Newline. 2015-11-11T00:36:21Z ryu0: \r, \n, \r\n? 2015-11-11T00:36:26Z ryu0: Oh? 2015-11-11T00:36:33Z ryu0: what does it resolve to? 2015-11-11T00:36:33Z pjb: Then there's also, when they exist, #\Return (CR) and #\Linefeed (LF) 2015-11-11T00:36:47Z ryu0: a platform specific thing? 2015-11-11T00:36:54Z pjb: Often (eql #\Newline #\Linefeed) but this is not necessarily the case. 2015-11-11T00:36:59Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-11T00:37:02Z ryu0: like, windows? 2015-11-11T00:37:09Z p_l: ryu0: \r and \n are direct mappings of ASCII CR (lisp #\Return) and LF (#\Linefeed) 2015-11-11T00:37:16Z p_l: ryu0: like ASCII 2015-11-11T00:37:27Z p_l: Unix broke ASCII by using just linefeed 2015-11-11T00:37:29Z pjb: And foremost, depending on the :external-format, (princ #\Newline) can output #\Return, #\Linefeed or #(#\Return #\Linefeed). 2015-11-11T00:37:36Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:37:51Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:37:51Z gabriel_laddel quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T00:38:09Z p_l: ryu0: tl;dr Windows behaviour of using CR LF is correct ASCII sequence, whereas unix has to do extra translation in order to print files on terminals 2015-11-11T00:38:14Z pjb: Some implementations will read the 3 as #\Newline. Some other may require a specific :external-format. 2015-11-11T00:38:58Z ryu0: either way, my point was that it translates the platform string for newlines? 2015-11-11T00:39:05Z ryu0: to the 2015-11-11T00:39:21Z ryu0: i've heard of 3 variations of it. 2015-11-11T00:39:24Z ryu0: \r, \n, \r\n. 2015-11-11T00:39:50Z ryu0: \r being the old macintosh one i heard. 2015-11-11T00:39:59Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:39:59Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-11-11T00:39:59Z ryu0: before OS X i believe? 2015-11-11T00:40:08Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T00:40:08Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:40:41Z p_l: yes, Classic MacOS used \r for newline 2015-11-11T00:41:16Z pjb: There's a NEL (133) in C1 in ISO-8859. 2015-11-11T00:41:19Z p_l: Unix for numerous (valid or not, but non-standard) reasons has \n 2015-11-11T00:41:24Z pjb: NEw Line 2015-11-11T00:41:27Z ryu0: i believe macs have used about 3 different architectures over the years... some motorola, then ppc, and now x86? 2015-11-11T00:42:20Z ryu0: ah, the 68000. 2015-11-11T00:42:33Z dmiles_akf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T00:42:34Z pjb: And of course, nowadays we have various unicode newlines/newparagraphs. So an implementation could map #\Newline to #\NEL or to #\LS or #\PS http://unicode.org/standard/reports/tr13/tr13-5.html 2015-11-11T00:42:55Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:43:07Z p_l: ryu0: classic MacOS did motorola 68k and PPC, what ended up being OSX (rather unrelated to MacOS) did m68k, sparc, ppc, ppc64, hppa, x86 and amd64 2015-11-11T00:43:21Z pjb: ryu0: and also ARM 2015-11-11T00:43:26Z pjb: under the name iOS. 2015-11-11T00:43:29Z p_l: and yes, ARM as well 2015-11-11T00:43:30Z ryu0: really? i only recall it being on ppc/ppc64/x86. 2015-11-11T00:43:40Z ryu0: when did it use sparc and such? 2015-11-11T00:43:50Z p_l: ryu0: OS X was a rebranding of NextSTEP/OpenSTEP 2015-11-11T00:44:05Z pjb: There also were some prototypes ports of MacOS on some other processors. 2015-11-11T00:44:06Z p_l: OpenSTEP did run on x86, sparc and hppa 2015-11-11T00:44:13Z ryu0: oh. 2015-11-11T00:45:01Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T00:45:43Z p_l: NeXTSTEP started on m68k (but much more... beefy than Macintosh), then became OpenSTEP, got ported to x86, sparc, hppa, ppc, to finally become Rhapsody -> MacOS Server ? -> OS X 2015-11-11T00:46:53Z p_l: I think I actually had the Sparc version of OpenSTEP 3.3 lying somewhere 2015-11-11T00:47:02Z p_l: never got around to running it 2015-11-11T00:47:30Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:47:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:51:37Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T00:55:01Z cagmz quit 2015-11-11T01:03:59Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T01:05:39Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:05:39Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T01:05:40Z pjb: NeXT computers had a 68030 and then a 68040, but with PMMU, and a DSP 56001. 2015-11-11T01:06:20Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:06:22Z pjb: Also, they had a custom DMA chip that made it a "mainframe" on the desktop. This was the big difference with other desk computers. 2015-11-11T01:06:45Z pjb: Basically, you had 9 DMA channels that let the computer move data around, without the processor having to do anything. 2015-11-11T01:07:10Z pjb: So when you moved windows on the screen, the bits were actually moved by the DMA, not by the processor. 2015-11-11T01:07:11Z p_l: not really mainframe, but yep - pretty much everything more serious than Mac or PC had heavy duty DMA in some form available 2015-11-11T01:07:21Z pjb: This is why on NeXT, the contents of the windows moved along. 2015-11-11T01:08:00Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:09:59Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T01:10:24Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:10:54Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T01:10:59Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T01:11:43Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-11T01:11:50Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:11:59Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T01:12:36Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:13:13Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:14:04Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:14:05Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-11-11T01:14:14Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-11T01:14:30Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T01:14:30Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:14:57Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:15:28Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:15:44Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-11T01:16:00Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T01:16:30Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T01:16:35Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T01:16:51Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I just need the basics for now. 2015-11-11T02:17:59Z mordocai: As a rubyist* 2015-11-11T02:18:23Z Xach: mordocai: http://xach.com/lisp/jrm-clos-guide.html 2015-11-11T02:18:37Z Xach: mordocai: it will help to not think of anything that clos does in terms of how ruby works. 2015-11-11T02:18:43Z Xach: mordocai: they use very different paradigms. 2015-11-11T02:19:03Z mordocai: Xach: Got it, thanks for the link 2015-11-11T02:19:42Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:20:14Z nowhere_man_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T02:22:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:23:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:26:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:28:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:32:45Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:33:00Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:34:49Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:36:38Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:39:19Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:41:04Z jilingju quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T02:41:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-11T02:43:06Z araujo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T02:43:35Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:44:44Z Bike quit (Quit: restart) 2015-11-11T02:46:54Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:47:31Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-11T02:48:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:48:06Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:48:27Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:53:38Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:54:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T02:58:54Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T03:02:03Z aiwaz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T03:03:41Z Xach: hmm, anyone know offhand of a function to convert "30/Sep/2015:23:42:21 +0000" to a universal time? 2015-11-11T03:03:52Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:04:09Z Xach: I feel like I needed this before, but the previous answer is no longer in my brain. 2015-11-11T03:06:37Z Xach: oh, i guess i can just give that format directly to postgres. phew! 2015-11-11T03:08:01Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T03:09:31Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:10:26Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-11-11T03:12:28Z pillton: You asked a time question in #lisp a while back. 2015-11-11T03:12:49Z pillton: I can't remember when or the answer. 2015-11-11T03:12:56Z pillton: Or even the question. 2015-11-11T03:13:43Z Xach: Ok. 2015-11-11T03:21:15Z Guthur: Xach: chroncity and then encode-universal-time 2015-11-11T03:21:19Z shum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-11T03:21:38Z Guthur: chroncity:parse to be exact 2015-11-11T03:22:07Z loke: Xach: local-time? 2015-11-11T03:22:19Z Xach: i am set 2015-11-11T03:23:08Z jlarocco_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T03:26:44Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:27:46Z UtkarshRay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T03:28:16Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:28:32Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:30:27Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T03:30:49Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:31:41Z aiwass joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:31:53Z aiwass is now known as Guest99979 2015-11-11T03:32:41Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T03:34:15Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-11-11T03:34:27Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T03:35:28Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:37:56Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:44:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T03:45:46Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-11T03:45:55Z katco joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:46:26Z katco: newbie CL debugging question: how do i get the stack trace from where a condition was raised, not where it was caught? 2015-11-11T03:47:53Z katco: or maybe a better question is: how should i go about figuring out where a condition was raised? (file/line) 2015-11-11T03:49:25Z Guthur: katco: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_break_.htm 2015-11-11T03:51:11Z katco: Guthur: thanks that should work great when i'm actively working on the program. what about unattended execution where i want the stack trace logged? 2015-11-11T03:51:54Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:52:06Z Guest99979 is now known as aiwaz 2015-11-11T03:53:46Z Guthur: katco: sorry, i don't quite understand the question, can you rephrase? 2015-11-11T03:53:47Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-11T03:53:58Z katco: Guthur: sure 2015-11-11T03:54:24Z katco: Guthur: if my program is running on a server somewhere, and i have an event loop that catches all conditions and logs them 2015-11-11T03:54:40Z katco: Guthur: how do i include the stack trace from where the condition was raised in the log? 2015-11-11T03:55:14Z Zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:56:15Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T03:56:49Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:59:26Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-11T03:59:36Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-11-11T03:59:56Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-11T04:00:57Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:01:39Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T04:01:47Z Guthur: katco: there is a library called trivial-backtrace which might be helpful 2015-11-11T04:02:38Z katco: Guthur: that was subsumed by uiop i think: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/image.lisp 2015-11-11T04:02:52Z Guthur: katco: ah, good to know 2015-11-11T04:03:03Z katco: Guthur: i've tried doing print-backtrace, but it seems to be the backtrace from where the condition is handled 2015-11-11T04:05:03Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-11T04:07:43Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T04:08:01Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:08:01Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T04:08:01Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:09:18Z Zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-11T04:12:47Z ryu0: so i got through reading about how sets are implemented with CL. not really surprising. they're just proper lists with the restriction that there should not be any duplicate elements. would they be put to good use to replace C enums for enumerating things? it seems that sets would fit this perfectly. 2015-11-11T04:15:02Z theos: whats the simplest way to flash some text on the screen and play a sound? 2015-11-11T04:16:15Z ryu0: theos: go to a website with annoying audio and video ads? :) 2015-11-11T04:16:18Z ryu0: heh. 2015-11-11T04:16:27Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:16:34Z pillton: ryu0: A list of keywords or symbols is what is normally done. You could define a type if you like. 2015-11-11T04:16:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-11T04:16:52Z pillton: ryu0: (deftype my-stuff () `(member :left :right :up :down)) 2015-11-11T04:16:56Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-11T04:17:03Z theos: hey beach 2015-11-11T04:17:23Z reb``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T04:17:30Z reb``` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:17:32Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T04:17:34Z ryu0: book only briefly mentioned keywords. they're any symbol prefixed with a colon, right? 2015-11-11T04:17:36Z theos: ryu0 heh i mean not flash. more like "display" 2015-11-11T04:18:09Z beach: ryu0: No, they are symbols in the KEYWORD package. 2015-11-11T04:18:21Z pillton: ryu0: Yes. Technically it is a symbol interned in the KEYWORD package. 2015-11-11T04:18:22Z beach: ryu0: I suggest you go look up terms in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-11-11T04:18:41Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T04:18:58Z ryu0: pillton: when you say interned, you mean it is contained in another namespace or such? 2015-11-11T04:19:21Z pillton: clhs intern 2015-11-11T04:19:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 2015-11-11T04:19:25Z beach: ryu0: The term "interned" is also described there. 2015-11-11T04:21:04Z ryu0: hm. an association list... reminds me of dictionary type of other languages. 2015-11-11T04:21:15Z beach: ryu0: And the Common Lisp HyperSpec will contain links to related material, so you will actually learn more than you initially thought you might need to know. It's a lot of fun when you start doing it. 2015-11-11T04:21:50Z ryu0: beach: i'm already going through one resource, the gentle book. 2015-11-11T04:21:56Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T04:22:17Z ryu0: i might feel more comfortable with hyperspec when there's not so many unfamiliar terms. 2015-11-11T04:22:30Z beach: ryu0: That book is not the specification, so it might not contain everything and it might not be as precise as the Common Lisp HyperSpec. You need to read the Common Lisp HyperSpec in parallel. 2015-11-11T04:23:04Z pillton: ryu0: The glossary is quite good. 2015-11-11T04:23:11Z beach: ryu0: Nice people like pillton are willing to point you to the right page so that you don't have to read the entire thing at once. 2015-11-11T04:23:30Z beach: ryu0: I suggest you try it. Like I said, you might like it. 2015-11-11T04:25:12Z ryu0: beach: i was planning to work through a bunch of different books. PCL, then maybe graham's books. 2015-11-11T04:25:17Z ryu0: after gentle. 2015-11-11T04:25:36Z ryu0: gentle doesn't cover everything. it does say it doesn't cover packages. 2015-11-11T04:25:46Z ryu0: i'm guessing packages are similar to libraries in other languages. 2015-11-11T04:25:54Z beach: Good plan. But they are also not the specification. So, whatever book you read, you need the Common Lisp HyperSpec in parallel. 2015-11-11T04:26:20Z beach: ryu0: The other thing is that "guessing" is going to lead you very wrong many times. 2015-11-11T04:26:32Z beach: It is SO much better to know what the term really means. 2015-11-11T04:27:28Z beach: It will save a lot of time for you, and for people who feel they have to correct your guesses. 2015-11-11T04:27:50Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:28:18Z ryu0: beach: then how do you suggest i use the hyperspec? obviously i don't want to be overwhelmed by details that aren't yet relevant to me. 2015-11-11T04:28:46Z beach: ryu0: This time, for instance, if you go to the table of contents, you will actually find a chapter named "Packages". 2015-11-11T04:29:04Z ryu0: i'm used to using standard specifications for reference only after i'm familiar with it from experience. 2015-11-11T04:29:12Z ryu0: posix for instance. 2015-11-11T04:29:29Z ryu0: but anywa 2015-11-11T04:29:31Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-11-11T04:30:43Z beach: clhs 11.1 2015-11-11T04:30:43Z specbot: Package Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_a.htm 2015-11-11T04:30:48Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:30:55Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:31:24Z beach: ryu0: Another thing you should avoid with Common Lisp is to rely on things you are familiar with from your experience. I have seen in the logs how many times those things lead you wrong with Common Lisp. 2015-11-11T04:32:38Z ryu0: because CL is designed entirely differently? 2015-11-11T04:33:11Z beach: It is very different, yes, and the terminology is very different sometimes as well. 2015-11-11T04:33:47Z beach: ryu0: So rather than "guessing" and being corrected, you are better off asking questions such as "where can I read about Common Lisp packages?" 2015-11-11T04:34:34Z beach: People having the same books as you do at their disposal might even point you to the relevant chapter in one of those books. 2015-11-11T04:34:34Z theos: in other words, just read a book... 2015-11-11T04:35:39Z ryu0: which i'm already doing. 2015-11-11T04:36:09Z jurov: is there a good book about the environment/debugger? 2015-11-11T04:36:48Z jurov: i started to get the language quite fine, but running into snags as this: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv/issues/35 2015-11-11T04:37:10Z jurov: gotta learn emacs on top of everything, i guess :( 2015-11-11T04:37:45Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:37:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:37:54Z beach: jurov: Common Lisp does not specify much about the debugger. 2015-11-11T04:38:13Z beach: jurov: So it would have to be a specific implementation of a debugger. 2015-11-11T04:38:33Z jurov: so, no one is writing about it? 2015-11-11T04:38:50Z jurov: or there are only utter hacks? 2015-11-11T04:39:11Z beach: The commercial Common Lisp implementations have good debuggers I have been told. 2015-11-11T04:39:30Z beach: What is called the SLIME debugger really isn't a debugger at all. 2015-11-11T04:40:44Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:40:45Z jurov: okay. is there helpful and concrete answer to question "is there a good common lisp debugger a beginner can start with?" 2015-11-11T04:41:03Z theos: yes 2015-11-11T04:41:07Z jurov: lmao 2015-11-11T04:41:07Z beach: Get LispWorks. I hear it has a good debugger. 2015-11-11T04:41:10Z pillton: clhs print 2015-11-11T04:41:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 2015-11-11T04:41:19Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-11T04:41:47Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:42:01Z pillton: jurov: Define good? 2015-11-11T04:42:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-11T04:42:16Z jurov: it works 2015-11-11T04:42:31Z jurov: as promised 2015-11-11T04:42:37Z pillton: I'm sorry. I don't have access to your neurons. 2015-11-11T04:43:04Z beach: jurov: Seriously, I think LispWorks has a free trial thing you can download. 2015-11-11T04:43:12Z beach: I think that would be the best solution. 2015-11-11T04:43:17Z jurov: pillton, with such attitude no questions can possibly ever be answered :D 2015-11-11T04:43:28Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-11T04:43:57Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:44:20Z pillton: I asked you to elaborate. I got "it works". What works? 2015-11-11T04:44:43Z jurov: have you read the bugreport? 2015-11-11T04:45:04Z jurov: i was promised "it can be easily stopped, fixed and restarted" 2015-11-11T04:45:07Z jurov: but nope 2015-11-11T04:45:47Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:45:48Z beach: OK, let's chill out a bit. 2015-11-11T04:46:19Z beach: jurov: If all you need from a debugger is that "it works as promised", then a debugger that promises nothing would be adequate. 2015-11-11T04:46:43Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-11T04:46:48Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-11T04:46:53Z jurov: what do you use? 2015-11-11T04:47:07Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:47:30Z beach: jurov: I am using whatever SLIME has, which is not enough sometimes. 2015-11-11T04:47:52Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:47:59Z beach: ... and whatever SBCL can do. 2015-11-11T04:48:30Z pillton: jurov: I use print mostly in conjunction with the pretty printed backtrace. 2015-11-11T04:49:29Z beach: jurov: It is not *quite* as bad as it sounds. You can insert a (BREAK) into your code, do a C-c C-c to recompile it, and examine the backtrace when SLIME stops there. 2015-11-11T04:50:02Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T04:50:20Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T04:50:20Z beach: And if your code signals an error that is not caught, you can examine the backtrace without putting an explicit (BREAK) in there. 2015-11-11T04:51:27Z jurov: um, ok 2015-11-11T04:51:27Z beach: s/caught/handled/ 2015-11-11T04:52:33Z ryu0: HAHA. (unuse-package 'CL) is funny. runtime errors. :) 2015-11-11T04:52:37Z beach: jurov: And you get the best results when you PROCLAIM that your DEBUG level is 3, etc. 2015-11-11T04:53:31Z jurov: so, no magic like replacing code at runtime? 2015-11-11T04:53:58Z pillton: Sort of. Macroexpansion still occurs. 2015-11-11T04:54:07Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-11T04:54:27Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T04:54:45Z pillton: I longed for the debugger to support stepping when I first started. 2015-11-11T04:55:12Z pillton: Macros make that hard. I don't know what other implementations do in that respect. 2015-11-11T04:55:23Z beach: ryu0: Works fine here. I assume you were in package CL-USER. From then on, you just have to use explicit package prefixes (cl:print "hello"). 2015-11-11T04:56:04Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:57:38Z beach: ryu0: It looks like you are still "guessing" how packages work. In particular, (UNUSE-PACKAGE 'CL) does not in itself create errors at runtime. 2015-11-11T04:58:31Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T04:58:49Z ryu0: beach: i meant it caused runtime errors when i tried to use things like +. 2015-11-11T04:58:58Z ryu0: well, it didn't cause them but... 2015-11-11T04:59:17Z beach: ryu0: That was very likely not a runtime error. 2015-11-11T04:59:34Z ryu0: then what do you call an undefined function error? 2015-11-11T05:00:03Z ryu0: clhs error 2015-11-11T05:00:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm 2015-11-11T05:00:05Z Bike: well, it's a runtime error after (unuse-package 'cl) is already complete. 2015-11-11T05:00:27Z Bike: but only in the repl, really 2015-11-11T05:00:32Z beach: Undefined functions should also be indicated at compile time, if you are using a reasonable implementation of Common Lisp. 2015-11-11T05:00:56Z Bike: usually just a warning, though 2015-11-11T05:01:05Z beach: ryu0: Try (cl:+ 3 5). The function + is still there and it works fine. 2015-11-11T05:02:23Z beach: ryu0: If you are amused by that kind of stuff, you can get the same effect by typing (add 3 5) without even having to do UNUSE-PACKAGE. 2015-11-11T05:02:37Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:03:34Z beach: ryu0: But yes, trying to call an undefined function signals an error at runtime. 2015-11-11T05:03:34Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:03:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:06:04Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:07:18Z beach: jurov: What I suggested, i.e. sticking a (BREAK) in a function and compile only that function with C-c C-c is a bit of "magic" like that in that it replaces the executable code for that particular function only. 2015-11-11T05:07:32Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-11T05:07:37Z jurov: aha 2015-11-11T05:08:17Z pjb: katco: use handler-bind instead of handler-case. Then in the handler functions, you'll have access to the stack frames from the point where the condition is signaled. 2015-11-11T05:08:41Z beach: jurov: But if that function is already being invoked, say if it is one of the functions on the stack, then you won't see the effect until next time your function is called. 2015-11-11T05:08:55Z pjb: katco: handler-bind also allows you to invoke restarts installed around the point where the condition is signaled, in the inner scopes of the body of handler-bind. 2015-11-11T05:09:49Z jurov: so far i only tried to change value passed on some level in the stack 2015-11-11T05:09:54Z ryu0: -_- 2015-11-11T05:10:01Z pjb: ryu0: sets are also implemented as bit-vectors. (bit-and #*1100 #*1010) #| --> #*1000 |# 2015-11-11T05:10:28Z pjb: ryu0: sets are also implemented as integers: (logand #b1100 #b1010) #| --> 8 |# 2015-11-11T05:10:59Z beach: jurov: In the SLIME debugger, you can hit `e' on a stack frame, and it will evaluate an expression relative to that stack frame, provided your implementation supports it. 2015-11-11T05:11:29Z beach: jurov: Then, if you have sufficiently high DEBUG level, you might be able to change the values of variables in that particular frame. 2015-11-11T05:12:35Z beach: jurov: In my .sbclrc file, I have (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3) (speed 0))) 2015-11-11T05:12:42Z beach: which I recommend during debugging. 2015-11-11T05:12:45Z jurov: and then when it shows something DEBUG::ARG-0, i should (setq DEBUG::ARG-0 value) right? 2015-11-11T05:13:07Z beach: You might be able to do that, yes. 2015-11-11T05:13:52Z pjb: jurov: I find the clisp debugger to be very newbie friendly. See: http://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 2015-11-11T05:14:05Z beach: jurov: But there are so many caveats here. If the compiler generated code that depends on the type of such a variable, and you set it to some other type, things can become nasty. 2015-11-11T05:14:47Z beach: Oh, right. As free debuggers go, CLISP is probably better. 2015-11-11T05:15:22Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:15:54Z pillton: jurov: What are you debugging out of curiosity? 2015-11-11T05:15:59Z pjb: ryu0: after (unuse-package 'CL) you can go on, by qualifying all your CL symbols: (cl:use-package :cl) 2015-11-11T05:16:11Z beach: pjb: I already said that. 2015-11-11T05:16:20Z jurov: i want to add some functions to cliki2 2015-11-11T05:16:37Z pjb: ok. 2015-11-11T05:17:49Z beach: pjb: But since ryu0 is "guessing" what Common Lisp packages are, he/she probably thinks that UNUSE-PACKAGE removes the functionality altogether, so is now quite confused. 2015-11-11T05:18:32Z ryu0: ... 2015-11-11T05:19:34Z beach: pjb: I am guessing that things like -_- and ... are signs of this confusion. 2015-11-11T05:20:13Z ryu0 left #lisp 2015-11-11T05:20:43Z beach: Don't worry #lisp. I'll be gone soon and you can have ryu0 back. 2015-11-11T05:21:37Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:21:39Z haasn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:22:58Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-11T05:25:37Z jurov: ofc, clisp fails to quickload cliki2 2015-11-11T05:25:38Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T05:26:25Z jurov: at named-readtables.asd: REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE: illegal keyword/value pair :MAILTO, "mega@retes.hu" in argument list. 2015-11-11T05:27:05Z jurov: do you think reusing quicklisp repo from sbcl migt be a problem? 2015-11-11T05:27:34Z loke: jurov: No 2015-11-11T05:27:55Z loke: jurov: Compiled files end up in $HOME/.cache/common-lisp/NAME-OF-IMPLEMNETATION 2015-11-11T05:27:59Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:29:23Z jurov: ok 2015-11-11T05:31:09Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T05:31:55Z jurov: thanks all so far 2015-11-11T05:32:52Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:33:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:33:47Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:35:11Z pjb: jurov: there's no reason why clisp would fail on keyword arguments. The bug is probably elsewhere. 2015-11-11T05:35:13Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:37:06Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:38:51Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:40:26Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T05:42:50Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:43:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-11T05:44:07Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:46:12Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:46:43Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:46:48Z reb```` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T05:47:53Z reb``` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:55:35Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T05:57:42Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2015-11-11T06:01:21Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:05:59Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-11T06:06:01Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:06:09Z blubjr` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:07:59Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:08:14Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:08:39Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:08:39Z blubjr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:08:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:08:59Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:09:28Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:20:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:21:14Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-11T06:24:19Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:29:08Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:29:23Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:29:54Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:30:30Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T06:32:35Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:35:18Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:40:18Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:41:59Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:42:01Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:46:24Z theos: is there a simple way to display a image in a window? 2015-11-11T06:46:49Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T06:48:15Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T06:48:19Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:49:28Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:49:32Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T06:54:26Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T06:55:24Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T06:59:27Z mordocai quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-11T07:00:38Z resttime: Depends on what "simple" means. Though here are some options: Qtools, GTK+ bindings, libraries for game programming, and etc. 2015-11-11T07:01:37Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:05:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:06:55Z Shinmera: katco: Unlike in Java and so forth where exceptions must capture the stack trace, in CL conditions do not. So you have two choices: 1) use handler-bind to put your handling code on top of the stack rather than unwinding as with handler-case, or use dissect to capture the stack when the condition is signalled and attach it manually. 2015-11-11T07:07:21Z Shinmera: I forgot the 2) in there, but whatever. It's early. Good morning #lisp 2015-11-11T07:08:45Z blubjr`: hi shinmera 2015-11-11T07:14:00Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T07:14:34Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:16:47Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T07:20:12Z theos: resttime is there any native CL way to do it? 2015-11-11T07:20:28Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:20:33Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T07:20:54Z resttime: theos: No, and neither is there a native way in any other language. 2015-11-11T07:21:29Z theos: hmm. can there be a way? 2015-11-11T07:21:30Z Bike: er, sorta depends on what you mean. i think dissect just uses implementation-specific mechanisms. 2015-11-11T07:21:33Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T07:21:39Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:22:03Z theos: i mean can it be written or is it impossible to do? 2015-11-11T07:22:21Z resttime: What's your definition of "native"? 2015-11-11T07:22:25Z Bike: it could be standardized, sure. 2015-11-11T07:23:27Z theos: by native i mean non-binding way. everything done in CL from the bottom up. 2015-11-11T07:23:40Z Bike: "non-binding"? 2015-11-11T07:23:45Z Bike: this isn't CFFI or anything. 2015-11-11T07:24:37Z theos: ya without making bindings to another software written in some other language 2015-11-11T07:24:55Z Bike: this doesn't involve that, mon. 2015-11-11T07:25:08Z Bike: oh, wait, hang on, shit. 2015-11-11T07:25:13Z theos: :D 2015-11-11T07:25:17Z Bike: you mean image in a window, not stack trace. just ignore me 2015-11-11T07:25:28Z Bike: ugh 2015-11-11T07:25:46Z theos: yes! just an image. say big text in a window. 2015-11-11T07:25:56Z theos: like a flashcards app 2015-11-11T07:26:37Z Bike: that's hard to standardize since it's different all over the place. 2015-11-11T07:27:13Z Bike: and the standard stuff that exists like opengl is largely defined in terms of c conventions 2015-11-11T07:27:29Z theos: i will start with "flashcard app" next time. a simple way to make flashcards in CL. 2015-11-11T07:28:17Z Bike: hypercard? 2015-11-11T07:28:32Z theos: nothing fancy. just a borderless white background with big black text 2015-11-11T07:28:40Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:28:53Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:29:17Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-11T07:29:42Z resttime: Maybe in an operating system written in Common Lisp. 2015-11-11T07:30:18Z Bike: well, yeah, you could do it with flavors and that whole huge-ass windowing graphics etc system they had going. 2015-11-11T07:31:08Z resttime: At some level you're going to have to interface with the operating system somehow to create a window. 2015-11-11T07:31:40Z Bike: you can do that in x11 in CL if you want. probably some way to send clx a pixmap or whatever it is 2015-11-11T07:34:39Z theos: CLX appears to be what i was looking for. thanks. 2015-11-11T07:35:46Z theos: last time i dismissed CLX because it was too much work :S i should stop being lazy 2015-11-11T07:36:09Z Bike: no, do dismiss it, dealing with things on that level sucks 2015-11-11T07:36:33Z Bike: plus you'll be linux-with-particular-system-that-may-be-on-its-way-out-bound. 2015-11-11T07:37:40Z resttime: Emacs is also a viable option, one can display images from the REPL. 2015-11-11T07:37:56Z resttime: Errr depending on what you consider an "option" that is. 2015-11-11T07:39:06Z shookees joined #lisp 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#lisp 2015-11-11T07:45:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:45:50Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:47:07Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:47:31Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:48:22Z theos: hmm i can use GTK+ to show the image and play a sound. doesnt seem like overkill now. emacs wont do as i want to make independent executable of sorts. 2015-11-11T07:51:45Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-11T07:57:53Z Shinmera: theos: I might have missed it, but why the avoidance of bindings? 2015-11-11T07:58:09Z Shinmera: though now that you're suggesting GTK, I suppose that's not a necessary requirement. 2015-11-11T07:58:57Z Shinmera: I can't personally vouch for the GTK bindings, but the Qt environment with Qtools is pretty comfortable nowadays. 2015-11-11T08:00:07Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:00:54Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:01:21Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:01:23Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T08:03:51Z theos: Shinmera hmm. i want to do everything in native CL if its possible. its just one of those biases which people have. silly i know. same with GTK vs QT. i dont like QT for some reason which i myself dont know. 2015-11-11T08:04:17Z Shinmera: "native CL" is not going to get you very far. 2015-11-11T08:04:26Z Shinmera: You won't even be able to use OpenGL. 2015-11-11T08:04:31Z theos: it will get me somewhere. then i will build on it. 2015-11-11T08:06:00Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:07:42Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:08:14Z Raimondi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T08:09:11Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:16:11Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:18:47Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T08:19:53Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T08:20:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:21:45Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-11T08:22:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T08:23:05Z 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T10:28:58Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-11T10:33:14Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:34:23Z papachan: hello 2015-11-11T10:34:41Z papachan: mehotds as write-to-string or digit-charp are macros? 2015-11-11T10:36:18Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:38:58Z jdz: they're functions 2015-11-11T10:39:25Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-11T10:39:41Z jdz: clhs write-to-string 2015-11-11T10:39:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 2015-11-11T10:39:57Z jackdaniel: with-output-to-string is a macro 2015-11-11T10:40:17Z jackdaniel: and don't use word "methods" since it's reserved for CLOS functions 2015-11-11T10:40:24Z jackdaniel: and may be misleading 2015-11-11T10:40:29Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:41:06Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T10:41:24Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T10:41:24Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:41:24Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T10:41:24Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:43:33Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T10:47:09Z papachan: jackdaniel jdz ah thanks 2015-11-11T10:47:51Z papachan: with (describe myfunctionname) i can wonder if they are functions or macros? 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2015-11-11T11:46:53Z Shinmera: Or whatever the phresest thing is nowadays 2015-11-11T11:46:57Z Shinmera: *phreshest 2015-11-11T11:48:53Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T11:50:15Z snv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T11:50:36Z scymtym looked into it a little bit 2015-11-11T11:52:15Z Shinmera: And what did you find? 2015-11-11T11:54:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-11T11:56:21Z scymtym: iirc, it should be possible to generate much of the protocol implementation from the specification. i also remember getting the impression that "window managers" will be C plugins inside the display server 2015-11-11T11:57:26Z Shinmera: Hm. 2015-11-11T11:57:49Z Shinmera: That might be a problem for things like StumpWM then 2015-11-11T11:59:07Z scymtym: yes, that's why i mentioned it. i may be wrong about this, though 2015-11-11T11:59:19Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:00:28Z scymtym: definitely sounds like it: http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_11 2015-11-11T12:06:15Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:08:16Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T12:09:14Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-11T12:11:27Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:13:53Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:14:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:14:46Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:14:47Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:15:45Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:17:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:17:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T12:18:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:18:58Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:19:36Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:20:22Z arnsholt: Is there a way to (declare ignore) a variable introduced by a for in loop()? 2015-11-11T12:20:41Z arnsholt: (Yes, it's a weird thing to want, but the code I'm working with is kinda weird) 2015-11-11T12:20:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:21:18Z Shinmera: Remove the for? 2015-11-11T12:22:44Z guaqua` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:22:45Z arnsholt: I need the for because the first for is side-effectful and I need the side-effect for a second for 2015-11-11T12:23:14Z arnsholt: Basically I have "for _ = (do-side-effect) for interesting = (depends-on-effect)" 2015-11-11T12:23:27Z Shinmera: Can't you just pack a do instead of the for then? 2015-11-11T12:23:39Z arnsholt: It's not a big deal, it's just the compiler warning for _ being unused that annoys me 2015-11-11T12:23:54Z arnsholt: Aren't all fors executed before dos? 2015-11-11T12:23:59Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:24:15Z arnsholt: Time to reread how loop works 2015-11-11T12:24:21Z Shinmera: Well. 2015-11-11T12:24:37Z Shinmera: According to the spec variable clauses have to come before main clauses 2015-11-11T12:24:48Z Shinmera: But some implementations like sbcl support mixing it up, if I remember correctly 2015-11-11T12:25:13Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:25:20Z Shinmera: What you can do is append the side effect to the end of your main clauses. 2015-11-11T12:25:28Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:25:33Z Shinmera: Unless it has to be inbetween two side-effecting for clauses? 2015-11-11T12:25:36Z arnsholt: Mine doesn't. In fact it throws a compile-time error if I intermix a do between fors 2015-11-11T12:25:49Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:25:54Z Shinmera: You could also do something like `for bla = (progn (side-effect) (real-thing))` 2015-11-11T12:26:10Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T12:26:17Z arnsholt: Oh, yeah. progn() is probably the cleanest way to do it 2015-11-11T12:26:35Z Shinmera: Please don't put those () at the end, this isn't C. 2015-11-11T12:26:50Z arnsholt: Fair 'nuff 2015-11-11T12:27:10Z Shinmera: If you want to indicate that it is a CL thing rather than a word, the convention is to SCREAM IT OUT. 2015-11-11T12:27:21Z arnsholt: Ah, right 2015-11-11T12:27:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:27:28Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:27:37Z Shinmera: Usually with things like progn people will get it either way though. :) 2015-11-11T12:27:47Z arnsholt: Then I guess the reason my boss uses the parens is probably because he doesn't use capital letters at all =) 2015-11-11T12:30:01Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:30:31Z Shinmera: I've never seen anyone do it before. 2015-11-11T12:34:21Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-11T12:35:15Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T12:35:50Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:35:57Z arnsholt: Entirely possible. I've mostly picked this up from a course taught by my now-boss and reading the HyperSpec, and interpolating my habits from elsewhere 2015-11-11T12:37:36Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:37:38Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:38:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:41:31Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:41:32Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T12:42:24Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T12:48:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T12:53:18Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:04:19Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:09:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T13:11:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:13:49Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-11T13:14:13Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:20:53Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-11T13:24:38Z rfmind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:25:02Z splittist: Was it Zmacs that had a setting to automatically UPPERCASE symbols in the CL package? 2015-11-11T13:25:09Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:26:12Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:28:38Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T13:30:50Z adelgado joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:30:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T13:32:41Z adelgado left #lisp 2015-11-11T13:34:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:37:02Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-11T13:38:22Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:38:36Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:42:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:43:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T13:44:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:45:35Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:46:43Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:55:47Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:56:50Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T13:57:25Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T13:59:44Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T13:59:50Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T14:00:14Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:03:16Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:05:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:08:15Z knicklux quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:15Z LiamH quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:18Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:18Z lnostdal quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:18Z dmiles_akf quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:22Z yvm quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:08:22Z sivoais quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-11T14:09:19Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-11T14:10:12Z iqool joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:10:28Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:12:34Z iqool left #lisp 2015-11-11T14:13:18Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z dmiles_akf joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:15:59Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:16:15Z sivoais quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-11T14:16:43Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:17:43Z jackdaniel: < Shinmera> Has anyone worked on Wayland bindings for CL? 2015-11-11T14:17:49Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: I have basic protocol implementation 2015-11-11T14:17:56Z jackdaniel: but it's not complete 2015-11-11T14:18:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:19:20Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T14:21:37Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:21:56Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T14:22:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:22:32Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:24:41Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:24:45Z Shinmera: Can you run anything with it yet? 2015-11-11T14:24:50Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:25:22Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:25:42Z jackdaniel: I can call any arbitrary function and receive any result 2015-11-11T14:26:34Z Shinmera: So have you tried creating a window and drawing something yet or? 2015-11-11T14:26:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:26:51Z Shinmera: I'm afraid I have very little knowledge about how anything Wayland works, so I lack the proper terminology. 2015-11-11T14:26:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:27:13Z jackdaniel: no, something distracted me and I haven't got back yet into this topic 2015-11-11T14:27:28Z Shinmera: Ok. 2015-11-11T14:27:31Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T14:27:50Z Shinmera: Wayland seems to have receded back into the background again anyway. I was merely curious. 2015-11-11T14:28:12Z jackdaniel: right. When I'll get back to it I'll let you know (if you want) 2015-11-11T14:28:19Z Shinmera: Sure! 2015-11-11T14:28:35Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T14:28:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:29:43Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T14:30:51Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:31:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:32:56Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:33:17Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:33:39Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T14:33:53Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:36:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:39:08Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:44:10Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:44:19Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:48:36Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T14:48:56Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:49:04Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-11T14:54:33Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T14:55:21Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T14:55:37Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:56:31Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:56:57Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:58:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-11T14:59:54Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:00:17Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T15:01:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:01:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T15:01:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:03:17Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:05:14Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:07:56Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:13:55Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T15:14:29Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:16:26Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T15:17:24Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:21:40Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T15:25:19Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:25:52Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-11T15:26:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:27:11Z grouzen quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-11T15:27:49Z emaczen: How do I force lists to be printed via format with a leading quote character i.e. "'(1 2 3)" 2015-11-11T15:28:16Z zacts: hi #lisp 2015-11-11T15:29:00Z Xach: emaczen: under what circumstances? 2015-11-11T15:29:36Z emaczen: Xach: Right now, the output is "(1 2 3)" and I need it to be "'(1 2 3)" 2015-11-11T15:29:38Z dlowe: emaczen: print out #\' before printing a list 2015-11-11T15:29:47Z Xach: emaczen: under what circumstances do you need that output? 2015-11-11T15:30:34Z emaczen: It is output created for parenscript, and without the "'" it is a function application and not a list. 2015-11-11T15:30:57Z emaczen: dlowe: I can try that, but before I restarted my Lisp, it was printing " 2015-11-11T15:31:10Z emaczen: "'" without any extra work. 2015-11-11T15:31:35Z dlowe: maybe you were actually printing the list (QUOTE (1 2 3)) 2015-11-11T15:31:43Z dlowe: due to over-quoting 2015-11-11T15:32:03Z dlowe: (write ''(1 2 3)) will do what you mean 2015-11-11T15:33:05Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T15:34:01Z emaczen: Yeah I can't think back and be sure as to why it was quoting (I took it for granted). But printing a #\' does the trick of course. 2015-11-11T15:35:08Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-11T15:36:45Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:38:45Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-11T15:39:42Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:40:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T15:47:45Z muyinliu_ quit (Quit: MAS server restart.) 2015-11-11T15:48:29Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:48:46Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T15:50:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:50:35Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:50:35Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-11T15:50:35Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:53:41Z userm_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:54:36Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T15:54:52Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T15:57:13Z userm_ is now known as userm 2015-11-11T16:00:01Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:00:08Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-11T16:00:35Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:01:21Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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That is, there are more concerned about letting you conceive and implement algorithms, than to display images. With those algorithm languages, you can design the data structures and algorithms needed to display an image on a given device. Or you can design the data structures and algorithms needed to pilot a rocket. Your choice, you're not limited to displaying images. 2015-11-11T16:27:45Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:29:20Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-11T16:29:24Z theos: pjb thats what i was thinking. so how do i start? i found de.setf.graphics and it looks promising. is there any lower level/native way ? 2015-11-11T16:29:34Z pjb: theos: using clx is not a bad idea, and it only depends on X, not on linux. I use X on MS-Windows and on MacOSX too. 2015-11-11T16:30:09Z pjb: Of course, the datastructure and algorithms to draw the images are already implemented in CL libraries, eg. vecto and others. 2015-11-11T16:30:26Z theos: clx is awesome! just a little bit of work in the beginning till i write a few functions and macros to automate stuff 2015-11-11T16:30:36Z pjb: You just need to copy the pixels to the specific GUI, eg. clx. 2015-11-11T16:31:41Z pjb: There are also lisp GUI frameworks such as McCLIM or Garnet, working on clx or other backends, but people are constantly complaining they don't look like the last Apple's fashion of the year. 2015-11-11T16:32:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T16:32:46Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:33:26Z pjb: theos: you can also consider making it a web app. Then you generate the image with a lisp library, and publish it on a local web server with hunchentoot; you just need to launch a browser to the url of your app. 2015-11-11T16:33:56Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:34:10Z oGMo: cl-cffi-gtk3 is decent and "native" depending on your platform 2015-11-11T16:34:29Z pjb: I don't have gtk kde gnome or whatever installed on systems. 2015-11-11T16:34:43Z theos: oGMo i want to avoid cffi and bindings 2015-11-11T16:34:45Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:34:47Z pjb: It's a big dependency, written in C or worse in C++… 2015-11-11T16:34:52Z oGMo: oooh evil :p 2015-11-11T16:34:59Z theos: :/ 2015-11-11T16:35:05Z pjb: At least, there are web browsers written in lisp… 2015-11-11T16:35:08Z oGMo: guess what your OS is written in 2015-11-11T16:35:14Z pjb: Mezzano, in CL. 2015-11-11T16:35:36Z theos: oh thats awesome! is it free? :D 2015-11-11T16:35:36Z oGMo: sure but there are no good browsers, even in C/C++ 2015-11-11T16:36:42Z dlowe: There's also the Tk bindings for CL 2015-11-11T16:37:04Z pjb: arnsholt: you should use initially and do: (loop initially (do-side-effect-once) do (do-side-effect) (depends-on-effect)) 2015-11-11T16:37:25Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T16:37:49Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:38:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T16:39:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:39:37Z pjb: splittist: It's a good feature, uppercasing CL symbols. This way, your programs still work with (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve). 2015-11-11T16:41:25Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:41:41Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T16:42:11Z theos: looks like pjb is my kinda person. everything in CL! 2015-11-11T16:42:25Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T16:44:06Z pjb: Yay! 2015-11-11T16:44:37Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-11T16:44:54Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T16:45:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-11T16:45:29Z theos: so.. how do you boot Mezzano? from the repl? or iso.. 2015-11-11T16:47:04Z pjb: It's complex. You must run a file server in a normal CL, and run Mezzano in qemu. 2015-11-11T16:47:30Z dlowe: unless you're totally crazy :) 2015-11-11T16:47:59Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-11T16:49:36Z theos: can i use virtualbox instead of qemu? 2015-11-11T16:50:20Z Ven__ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-11T17:32:13Z theos: i can make a logo like software with turtle geometry but i just need to display text on a white background :S 2015-11-11T17:33:52Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:34:10Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:34:42Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:35:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:36:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:37:45Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-11T17:38:10Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:39:24Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:40:02Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:41:30Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:41:32Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:41:51Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-11-11T17:42:55Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:42:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:43:25Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:44:27Z pjb: theos: for education, it make sense to write a tool in java, since that let them run it in all the platforms the students may use. 2015-11-11T17:44:54Z pjb: theos: but indeed, with clx it's simple enough to open a window and draw stuff. 2015-11-11T17:45:10Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:47:25Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:48:02Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:48:24Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:49:44Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:50:04Z halfcrazy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T17:50:15Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:50:35Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:51:13Z phryk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T17:53:46Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:55:44Z mjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T17:56:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:57:08Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:57:38Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:58:13Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:59:40Z phryk joined #lisp 2015-11-11T17:59:59Z theos: hmm. there is a need for a tool to replace java. i will write something once i "master" CL! 2015-11-11T18:01:31Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-11T18:01:58Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeveriDie 2015-11-11T18:02:03Z NeveriDie is now known as NeverDie 2015-11-11T18:04:01Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:04:30Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:04:35Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:05:53Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-11T18:07:08Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T18:08:20Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:08:38Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:08:48Z jasom: I think Go is replacing java for server applications fairly rapidly now 2015-11-11T18:09:58Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T18:10:15Z zwdr: well, I would welcome that 2015-11-11T18:10:20Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:11:34Z jasom: I suppose that means that Google is the new Sun 2015-11-11T18:11:35Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:11:46Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:11:59Z blubjr`: i miss sun 2015-11-11T18:12:05Z blubjr` is now known as blubjr 2015-11-11T18:12:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:13:18Z nowhere_man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T18:13:32Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:14:15Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:14:18Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:16:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:17:18Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T18:17:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:19:24Z ktx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:21:39Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:22:21Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T18:22:23Z dwchandler: any thoughts on http://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/index.html ? 2015-11-11T18:24:56Z ggole quit 2015-11-11T18:25:09Z dbrock-: I think it looks pretty awesome at first glance 2015-11-11T18:25:57Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:26:26Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:26:36Z blubjr: expert level editors and advanced hotkeys 2015-11-11T18:28:28Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T18:29:22Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:29:27Z userm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:29:36Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:29:43Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:30:16Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:30:57Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:31:23Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:31:45Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:33:10Z jasom: Okay, I like that a lot, and want it in emacs 2015-11-11T18:33:57Z jasom: In Indent mode it basically did exactly what I wanted, way better than paredit does. 2015-11-11T18:34:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:35:26Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:35:35Z ktx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:35:37Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:36:07Z dwchandler: It seems very promising to me (otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it) 2015-11-11T18:36:25Z jasom: I only worry what will hapen when opening a file with intentionally non-standard indentation... I have some code that is heavy with cl-who style markup and don't want it to mess up my indentation style there 2015-11-11T18:37:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:38:55Z jasom: It also needs to be fixed to ignore "s in comments 2015-11-11T18:39:30Z jasom: oh, I see why, it's due to live processing... Perhaps it should insert "s in pairs like paredit does? 2015-11-11T18:40:00Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T18:40:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T18:41:28Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:41:56Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-11T18:42:20Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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"I don't see how this is better than X" or whatever 2015-11-11T20:20:07Z dwchandler: But this and some of the semantic editing stuff is thinking in the right direction, IMHO 2015-11-11T20:20:31Z mordocai: A little bit of this has been happening with smartparens. Like commenting without rearranging parens. 2015-11-11T20:20:38Z mordocai: Looks pretty cool 2015-11-11T20:20:47Z dwchandler: yeah 2015-11-11T20:21:46Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:22:47Z dbrock-: ie i mutce melbi jufra 2015-11-11T20:22:55Z dbrock-: oops, sorry, wrong channel 2015-11-11T20:23:11Z dwchandler: hva faen? 2015-11-11T20:23:24Z dwchandler: ;) 2015-11-11T20:23:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:23:59Z Xach: it can be hard to appreciate something that might make life better without using it for a while 2015-11-11T20:24:25Z Xach: for me, i had a really hard time thinking of how slime might be better than ilisp until i saw someone using it for a while, in a video 2015-11-11T20:24:38Z dwchandler nods 2015-11-11T20:24:40Z dlowe: lo sampla be bau la lisp cu jorne .u'i sai 2015-11-11T20:24:52Z Shinmera: So wait, this is an entirely new editor? 2015-11-11T20:25:02Z mordocai: Currently a WIP atom plugin it looks like 2015-11-11T20:25:26Z Shinmera: Hrm. Well, I suppose one thing turning oldtimers off is that they'd have to ditch emacs. 2015-11-11T20:25:31Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T20:25:38Z mordocai: Yeah, screw that. Someone will port it 2015-11-11T20:25:38Z dlowe: I'm pretty sure atom is the next emacs 2015-11-11T20:25:43Z dwchandler: currently a live website with a WIP atom plugin, I think 2015-11-11T20:25:44Z zwdr: I'm not a fan of atom to be honest 2015-11-11T20:25:50Z dbrock-: u'i sai doi la'oi dlowe i'i 2015-11-11T20:25:56Z mordocai: If you hate lisp sure, atom may the next emacs 2015-11-11T20:26:01Z zwdr: If it was a native app maybe 2015-11-11T20:26:13Z jackdaniel: I'm not fan of atom either. But I think it's great that someone makes a plugin for lisp on it! 2015-11-11T20:26:16Z dwchandler: less than 1kloc of clojurescript? how hard to port to elisp or whatever? 2015-11-11T20:26:17Z dlowe: it's just got millions of javascript programmers on its side 2015-11-11T20:26:19Z jackdaniel: more potential users :) 2015-11-11T20:26:20Z zwdr: true :3 2015-11-11T20:26:29Z mordocai: jackdaniel: Indeed. Just zero chance of me using it 2015-11-11T20:26:53Z jackdaniel: I'm sticking to emacs :) but great initiative 2015-11-11T20:26:58Z mordocai agrees 2015-11-11T20:27:07Z zwdr: anyway, I guess atom at least is more lightweight than emacs ;) 2015-11-11T20:27:08Z Shinmera: Yeah, it's neat to have good lisp support in other editors. 2015-11-11T20:27:27Z mordocai: zwdr: You say that like it is a good thing :P 2015-11-11T20:27:32Z phf: it's clojure project, i think those guys ... actively dislike legacy stuff. for a while they were clashing with slime, then they started writing their own nrepl thing and adding -f.el -n.el (or whatever) to every elisp package. still emacs didn't get any friendlier, so focus moved elsewhere 2015-11-11T20:27:33Z dlowe: atom is built on top of a web browser, so I kind of don't think it is lightweight 2015-11-11T20:27:45Z zwdr: that was the joke :s 2015-11-11T20:27:54Z dbrock-: clojure is a scam 2015-11-11T20:28:07Z mordocai: Lol, Idk about it being a scam but I certainly prefer CL 2015-11-11T20:28:51Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:29:52Z fe[nl]ix: dbrock-: take it easy 2015-11-11T20:30:11Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:30:17Z Nikotiin` is now known as Nikotiini 2015-11-11T20:30:23Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:30:37Z phf: i think rich hickey, like gosling, is doing right thing for "wrong" (imo) reasons. more power to them, as long as they don't break my stack. in that case parinfer can be disruptive elsewhere, and riastradh maybe will backport some features into paredit if he really likes them in 10 years or so 2015-11-11T20:30:50Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:34:00Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:36:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:37:10Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:37:10Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:37:10Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:38:35Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:39:46Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:41:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:42:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:43:39Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T20:43:57Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:46:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:47:03Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:48:07Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-11T20:48:57Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-11T20:49:10Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:50:37Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:51:19Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T20:51:31Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:52:26Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T20:52:56Z guaqua` is now known as guaqua 2015-11-11T20:59:34Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T20:59:56Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T20:59:56Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2015-11-11T21:04:02Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-11T21:06:02Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:06:49Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:06:49Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T21:07:36Z userm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T21:08:15Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:10:18Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T21:10:33Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:13:39Z Raimondii is now known as Raimondi 2015-11-11T21:15:11Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:15:49Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2015-11-11T21:16:50Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:21:33Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T21:22:34Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T21:23:10Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:23:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:23:35Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:23:41Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-11T21:24:23Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:24:23Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:26:13Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:27:09Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:28:29Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:28:59Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T21:29:00Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T21:29:48Z dim: hi 2015-11-11T21:30:01Z dim: any idea how to understand this one? Failed to connect to pgsql at "dbserver" (port 5432) as user "dbuser": /home/dbuser/.postgresql/postgresql.key is not a Lisp string or pointer. 2015-11-11T21:30:44Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:30:54Z otwieracz: Show your code. 2015-11-11T21:31:10Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:32:38Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:32:41Z Xach: dim: that looks a little like a FFI error message 2015-11-11T21:32:58Z Xach: dim: and i wonder if it is because the thing in question is a pathname object rather than a namestring 2015-11-11T21:34:10Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:37:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:42:29Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:42:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T21:42:43Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T21:48:17Z dim: it is 2015-11-11T21:48:35Z dim: hence my confusion, there's no FFI involved here that I can see 2015-11-11T21:49:07Z dim: otwieracz: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/f8ae9f22b9d13d43b358a67b5e85c4d1db8985eb 2015-11-11T21:49:19Z dim: otwieracz: full context at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/308#issuecomment-155605145 2015-11-11T21:49:20Z Shinmera: postmodern uses a direct CL implementation of the postgres protocol, if I remember correctly. 2015-11-11T21:49:27Z dim: exact 2015-11-11T21:50:32Z dim: Xach: Postmodern docs sayth: “When using SSL (see open-database), these can be used to provide client key and certificate files. They can be either NIL, for no file, or a pathname.” 2015-11-11T21:51:09Z otwieracz: Eventually, you can try #p"path/to/file" 2015-11-11T21:51:59Z Bike: Is there a decent backtrace? 2015-11-11T21:53:25Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T21:54:34Z dim: the only one I have is not decent enough in my eyes, you can see it at the issue url 2015-11-11T21:54:43Z dim: I am trying to reproduce locally, still failing 2015-11-11T21:56:30Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:56:36Z prxq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T21:58:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-11T21:59:18Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-11T21:59:52Z Xach: I don't see a string like that in postmodern sources 2015-11-11T22:00:03Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T22:00:47Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-11T22:01:34Z Xach: ah, it's from cffi 2015-11-11T22:01:56Z Xach: (sorry if this is all obvious, just thinking out loud) 2015-11-11T22:02:12Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:02:33Z dim: well I wonder why cffi is involved is this code path at all 2015-11-11T22:02:52Z dim: oh. obvious. ssl support 2015-11-11T22:03:37Z pjb: Somebody should implement ssl in CL. 2015-11-11T22:04:11Z White_Flame: it'd be tough to do things like timing attack mitigation in pure CL 2015-11-11T22:04:54Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:06:30Z dim: I would enjoy seeing pure-CL implementation of TLS/SSL yes 2015-11-11T22:06:30Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-11T22:06:38Z dim: s/seeing/using/ 2015-11-11T22:07:17Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:08:04Z Xach: i would love it if implementations provided it, like they provide networking basics already. 2015-11-11T22:08:28Z dim: that's good thinking 2015-11-11T22:08:30Z Xach: then i wouldn't care if they did it in CL or via a library or whatever, as long as it was made available 2015-11-11T22:08:34Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:10:02Z dim: static link in the image would be my preference 2015-11-11T22:10:13Z dim: but as long as it "just works" I'm ok ;-) 2015-11-11T22:12:16Z jasom: Can I access CPU-specific simd operations without dropping down into C or assembly on either of sbcl or ccl? 2015-11-11T22:12:50Z p_l: jasom: yes. If you can't now, you can add them to SBCL's assembler and wrap them in VOPs 2015-11-11T22:14:30Z jasom: p_l: do you have an example of inlining VOPs in sbcl? 2015-11-11T22:14:54Z p_l: jasom: VOPs are automatically inlined 2015-11-11T22:15:15Z Bike: sbcl has a bunch of simd stuff already, i don't know how documented it is 2015-11-11T22:15:21Z dim: anyway thanks for your help unveiling the obvious Xach et al., I pushed something (uiop:native-namestring wrapping) that should help 2015-11-11T22:15:41Z dim: and good night ;-) 2015-11-11T22:15:52Z White_Flame: jasom: pkhuong has a lot of articles on the matter. Here's one: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/ 2015-11-11T22:16:43Z White_Flame: some description on SSE instructions: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/06/05/fresh-in-sbcl-1-dot-1-8-sse-intrinsics/ 2015-11-11T22:16:53Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-11T22:17:08Z p_l: jasom: once you define the VOP "right" you call it like normal function and it's always inlined, iirc 2015-11-11T22:21:19Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:23:06Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T22:23:07Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T22:23:27Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:24:33Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T22:24:47Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:24:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T22:26:43Z jasom: White_Flame: thanks 2015-11-11T22:37:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:37:37Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T22:38:29Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:39:42Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T22:40:04Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T22:40:34Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T22:41:10Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This is a bad attitude. 2015-11-11T23:23:20Z briantrice quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:24:45Z XachX: pjb: It is a waste of time to discuss anything at all with you. Please don't try. 2015-11-11T23:26:42Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:26:56Z White_Flame: pjb: good algos won't be consing anyway 2015-11-11T23:27:46Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:27:54Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:28:51Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:30:14Z jasom: pjb, White_Flame I think this was a joke, but gc does not help at all with timing attacks; gc jitter won't be any worse than network jitter unless you have a very large heap, and they can do timing attacks even over things like consumer DSL 2015-11-11T23:30:32Z duggiefresh quit 2015-11-11T23:31:10Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:32:26Z pjb: It's easy enough to protect against it for remote attackers: just use always the same time, using a timer. 2015-11-11T23:32:31Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-11T23:33:13Z p_l: jasom: or just do the comparisons using non-shortcircuiting code 2015-11-11T23:34:20Z jasom: p_l: how do you know it's non-shortcircuiting? 2015-11-11T23:35:34Z jasom: I suppose you could put your compare in a separate file, declare it notinline and use (optimize (speed 0)) and hope for the best 2015-11-11T23:36:25Z pjb: jasom: (aref #(a b) bit) instead of (if (zerop bit) 'a 'b) 2015-11-11T23:36:31Z p_l: jasom: most importantly, you need to use specialized comparison operations 2015-11-11T23:36:32Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:37:07Z jasom: pjb: would it be legal for the compiler to turn the former into the latter? 2015-11-11T23:37:34Z p_l: for example, doing a loop comparison on padded arrays, byte by byte, and setting a flag on each iteration, then return the flag 2015-11-11T23:37:57Z jasom: p_l: again, an optimizaing compiler could decide to exit the loop early 2015-11-11T23:38:36Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:38:51Z jasom: you could do it in pure lisp, but it would have to be implementation dependent, and there would be no guarantee that a newer compiler version would break it. C is the same way. 2015-11-11T23:39:07Z p_l: how can it detect that a loop should be left early? 2015-11-11T23:39:12Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:39:18Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-11T23:39:31Z p_l: also, remember, that ANSI CL is much less "undefined-behaviour happy" 2015-11-11T23:39:36Z p_l: than, let's say, C 2015-11-11T23:42:34Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:42:53Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:43:25Z cagmz left #lisp 2015-11-11T23:43:26Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:43:51Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:44:22Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:45:58Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-11T23:46:14Z jack_ joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:47:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:47:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:47:50Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:48:39Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:48:42Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:48:55Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:49:59Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:50:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-11T23:51:19Z csziacobus quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-11T23:53:05Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-11T23:56:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:01:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:04:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:04:51Z alexshendi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T00:05:07Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:05:15Z cagmz quit 2015-11-12T00:06:08Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:08:13Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T00:08:17Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T00:10:02Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T00:10:18Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:11:08Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:11:26Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:12:15Z malice: Hello! I created class X that has field Y. I want to make sure that, during creation of instance of X, there will be error if Y isn't one of symbols 'yes 'no 'maybe. How should I do this? 2015-11-12T00:12:47Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T00:14:18Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:15:15Z jasom: malice: provide a method for initialize-instance for this class 2015-11-12T00:15:15Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T00:15:21Z jasom: clhs intitialize-instance 2015-11-12T00:15:21Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for intitialize-instance. 2015-11-12T00:15:26Z jasom: cls initialize-instance 2015-11-12T00:15:37Z jasom: clhs INITIALIZE-INSTANCE 2015-11-12T00:15:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 2015-11-12T00:16:04Z spacebat: I was reading somewhere - I think it was a recent ECL on Android blog post, that swank works on the phone, so you can connect to it via slime, but that there is no toplevel 2015-11-12T00:16:23Z malice: Yeah I am reading about it now. 2015-11-12T00:16:36Z spacebat: I found that curious because I thought the slime repl does provide a toplevel 2015-11-12T00:16:37Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:17:43Z spacebat: perhaps they meant its a neutered ECL build that can't define new functions and macros? 2015-11-12T00:18:02Z jack_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T00:18:16Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:18:36Z malice: jasom: should I use an :around , :after or :before method? If I signal an error in initialize-instance, will the object created by make-instance be valid? 2015-11-12T00:20:35Z lemonpepper24 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T00:20:51Z jasom: malice: make-instance has not yet returned when initialize-instance is called 2015-11-12T00:20:56Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:21:02Z malice: Okay. Thanks 2015-11-12T00:21:32Z spacebat: malice: generally writing initialize-instance methods are :after 2015-11-12T00:21:42Z jasom: malice: and :after is usually a good option for verifying everything is initialized right (and doing anything you need to finish initialization) 2015-11-12T00:21:46Z spacebat: so that the object has been, well, initialized when your method is called 2015-11-12T00:22:20Z jasom: spacebat: In some cases it makes sense to use an :around as you can modify the arguments passed on 2015-11-12T00:22:36Z spacebat: true 2015-11-12T00:23:15Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:23:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:23:56Z jasom: I find CLOS to be over-engineered in a good way; it won't break even when using it in ways the creators did not anticipate... 2015-11-12T00:25:12Z ben_vulpes: so i'm a wee baffled: why does this function not return the 'sorted' list? it will happily *print* the sorted list, but not return it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159101#1 2015-11-12T00:26:30Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2015-11-12T00:26:40Z Xach: ben_vulpes: what suggests to you that it does not return it? 2015-11-12T00:26:45Z jasom: ben_vulpes: you want "finally (return (toposort unsorted sorted))" 2015-11-12T00:27:06Z jasom: ben_vulpes: on line 9 2015-11-12T00:27:26Z ben_vulpes: Xach: the function to the best that i can determine returns nil. 2015-11-12T00:27:35Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T00:27:35Z Xach: ben_vulpes: does it also print nil? 2015-11-12T00:27:36Z jasom: ben_vulpes: loop returns nil 2015-11-12T00:27:41Z ben_vulpes: dorp dorp dorp 2015-11-12T00:27:44Z ben_vulpes: thank you gents 2015-11-12T00:28:09Z jasom: np 2015-11-12T00:28:17Z Xach: i would be pretty surprised if that code as written printed (1 2 3 4 5) but returned nil 2015-11-12T00:28:20Z malice: Thank you too jasom, now I got it working on my dummy-example, it should suffice. 2015-11-12T00:28:26Z jasom: I wish I were as good at debugging my own code as I am at other-people's code 2015-11-12T00:29:10Z spacebat: doing something else for a while helps 2015-11-12T00:29:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:30:32Z malice: One more question for you guys - is there some library, macro, or anything that you know that is capable of the following: 2015-11-12T00:30:34Z ben_vulpes: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159101#3 2015-11-12T00:30:46Z malice: You type in one thing(e.g. (start-testing)) 2015-11-12T00:30:50Z malice: Then you do anything you want 2015-11-12T00:30:56Z malice: Then you write other thing(e.g. (stop-testing)) 2015-11-12T00:31:05Z malice: And any symbols created in the process are uninterned 2015-11-12T00:31:41Z malice: What I mean is that I often like to try some things out, sometimes by creating global vars, and then, if I'm handling a lot of output, it's hard to remember what variables I was using; also, it's a little annoying to unintern all of them. 2015-11-12T00:32:24Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:32:27Z malice: This would be something like "Right now I'm in the testing lab, and everything will go back to the moment before (start-testing) when I write (stop-testing). 2015-11-12T00:32:51Z ben_vulpes: (i'm also not terrifically pleased with the setf-ing-of loop vars, so if anyone has a suggestion for making that better/more idiomatic i'd looove that but nbd) 2015-11-12T00:34:19Z Xach: color me surprised 2015-11-12T00:34:45Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:35:28Z Bike: i think that setf might get some UB, not sure though 2015-11-12T00:35:37Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:35:53Z ben_vulpes: Bike: UB? 2015-11-12T00:36:00Z Bike: undefined behavior 2015-11-12T00:36:06Z Bike: since you're editing the list you're traversing 2015-11-12T00:36:15Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:36:58Z ben_vulpes: aha 2015-11-12T00:37:04Z Bike: wow, two loops and recursion 2015-11-12T00:37:38Z ben_vulpes winces 2015-11-12T00:38:46Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:39:14Z ben_vulpes: myeah, if there's an obvious way to solve the problem just point me at it—i'm still learning 'good' cl. 2015-11-12T00:39:17Z jasom: malice: you could create a package that imports the packages you want to use, then delete the package when you are done 2015-11-12T00:39:37Z malice: Yeah, I was thinking about something similar. 2015-11-12T00:39:58Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:41:02Z jasom: Bike: I think it's okay since he's not modifying the structure of the list 2015-11-12T00:41:20Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:41:26Z Bike: i dunno, replacing it entirely isn't much better 2015-11-12T00:41:42Z jasom: Bike: it evaluates the right side of "in" to produce a list that it then iterates over 2015-11-12T00:41:50Z jasom: I'm like 99.9% sure this is safe 2015-11-12T00:42:05Z Bike: hm. 2015-11-12T00:42:10Z jasom: Compare e.g. loop for x in (list 1 2 3) <- there's not even a variable to modify there 2015-11-12T00:42:50Z jasom: ben_vulpes: this is an implementation of Kahn's algorithm? 2015-11-12T00:42:52Z ben_vulpes: would it be safer to delete the item from the list than clobbering the list? 2015-11-12T00:43:00Z jasom: ben_vulpes: no, that *would* be not okay 2015-11-12T00:43:06Z jasom: ben_vulpes: what you are doing now is fine 2015-11-12T00:43:46Z jasom: you aren't clobbering the list, just one variable that happens to be bound to the list at the beginning of iteration 2015-11-12T00:44:12Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:44:46Z Bike: yeah, you're right. i wouldn't write it like this, though. 2015-11-12T00:45:56Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T00:46:27Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:49:18Z jasom: also you may want to signal an error rather than just using never (find c unsorted) I think you may have an infinite loop in the case of a circular graph 2015-11-12T00:49:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T00:50:50Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-12T00:51:47Z Bike: it doesn't work if a patch has multiple antecedents, does it? 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T01:41:38Z ben_vulpes: jasom, Bike: thank you both! it is Kahn's, i believe, and yes I need to handle acyclic graphs and patches with multiple antecedents. 2015-11-12T01:44:30Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T01:44:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-12T01:45:05Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-12T01:45:28Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-11-12T01:45:41Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T01:46:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T01:47:32Z kyfho: yeah 2015-11-12T01:50:27Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T01:51:43Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T01:54:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-12T01:55:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T01:55:52Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-12T01:56:51Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Do you know of CODE-CHAR? 2015-11-12T03:27:19Z drmeister: I have a system that I'm loading through quicklisp that wants it. 2015-11-12T03:27:34Z drmeister: Yeah, I know of CODE-CHAR. (code-char 0) --> #\nul 2015-11-12T03:28:54Z drmeister: I'll just add it. 2015-11-12T03:29:39Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T03:29:59Z pillton: The only thing I can find is.. 2015-11-12T03:30:02Z pillton: clhs 13.1.7 2015-11-12T03:30:02Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm 2015-11-12T03:30:10Z drmeister: Ugh, it's a little more difficult than just adding it. 2015-11-12T03:30:49Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-12T03:31:09Z drmeister: Well, I've got this code that I'm loading via quicklisp and it wants: (read-char stream nil #\null) 2015-11-12T03:32:14Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T03:32:33Z pjb: ccl knows #\Null 2015-11-12T03:33:43Z drmeister: So do ECL and SBCL 2015-11-12T03:33:58Z drmeister: They both return: #\null --> #\Nul 2015-11-12T03:34:22Z drmeister: I think all I need to do is have name-char recognize it. 2015-11-12T03:34:25Z pillton: From what I can tell, it isn't conforming. 2015-11-12T03:35:32Z pillton: I would probably submit a patch doing something like (defconstant +null-character+ (code-char 0)). 2015-11-12T03:35:54Z drmeister: A patch to what? 2015-11-12T03:35:59Z drmeister: to where I mean? 2015-11-12T03:36:13Z pillton: The system you're loading using quicklisp. 2015-11-12T03:37:14Z drmeister: Well, since I'm Johnny come lately and everybody else seems to support #\null - I might as well bend to the wind and just support it. 2015-11-12T03:37:56Z pillton: Write a CDR! 2015-11-12T03:38:08Z drmeister: CDR? 2015-11-12T03:38:21Z pillton: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ 2015-11-12T03:38:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T03:39:15Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T03:39:16Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-11-12T03:40:10Z drmeister: I'd rather say "Clasp supports quicklisp again" and do a happy dance. 2015-11-12T03:40:31Z pillton: Haha 2015-11-12T03:40:33Z drmeister: That was all I needed to load my first quicklisp system into cclasp. 2015-11-12T03:40:49Z drmeister: Are they called quicklisp systems? Or packages? I know they are ASDF systems. 2015-11-12T03:41:15Z pillton: I think they are called quicklisp systems. 2015-11-12T03:41:41Z pillton: quicklisp:system-apropos exists. 2015-11-12T03:41:50Z drmeister: Ok. Anyway quicklisp works again. Now with cclasp. It's slow to compile because the cclasp compiler is slow but the code it generates is pretty fast. 2015-11-12T03:47:00Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T03:47:54Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-12T03:54:40Z drmeister: Xach: Do you have any measure for how many quicklisp systems contain implementation dependent feature tests? 2015-11-12T03:55:19Z drmeister: I ask because I'm trying to gauge how often I'll have to update packages. 2015-11-12T03:55:23Z drmeister: systems - systems. 2015-11-12T03:58:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T03:59:13Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:00:04Z loke: Hello drmeister 2015-11-12T04:00:21Z drmeister: Hi loke 2015-11-12T04:01:05Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-12T04:01:18Z loke: drmeister: Any news on compilability on Arch Linux? 2015-11-12T04:02:53Z drmeister: I think I've done all the heavy lifting and llvm3.7 compatibility is pretty much there but I haven't had much time to test it with everything else that I've been fixing. 2015-11-12T04:03:21Z drmeister: But I do have a new VMWare license and I was going to set up an Arch VM. 2015-11-12T04:03:29Z drmeister: I'll start that up tonight. 2015-11-12T04:03:32Z loke: drmeister: Should I go ahead and try again? 2015-11-12T04:04:03Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T04:04:03Z drmeister: Well, I kind of wasted your time the last couple of times - I feel bad about that. It did spur me to do the upgrading. 2015-11-12T04:04:25Z breakds_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T04:04:32Z loke: Hah. It didn't take any time 2015-11-12T04:05:29Z loke: building now 2015-11-12T04:05:34Z drmeister: I'm merging a whole bunch of changes into the "dev_37" branch right now - but github is acting up 2015-11-12T04:05:39Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T04:05:43Z drmeister: Oh - wait - it's not up to date. 2015-11-12T04:06:17Z drmeister: testing_37 is not up to date. I'm trying to bring it up to date now but I'm having trouble with my internet connection or github or something. 2015-11-12T04:07:26Z drmeister: Grrr, git is just sitting there and then it errors out 2015-11-12T04:08:31Z drmeister: fatal: unable to access 'https://github.com/drmeister/clasp.git/': Failed to connect to github.com port 443: Operation timed out 2015-11-12T04:08:43Z drmeister: Give me a few min - I'll tell you when it's updated 2015-11-12T04:09:47Z loke: drmeister: OK thanks. 2015-11-12T04:10:01Z loke: The PassManager.h problem was still there in the version I just tried to compile. 2015-11-12T04:11:01Z drmeister: Yeah - because I don't think I updated it since you tried the last time. 2015-11-12T04:11:08Z drmeister: updated testing_37 that is. 2015-11-12T04:11:09Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:11:59Z drmeister: I tried to set up dev_37 on my OS X machine but it's tricky setting up non-native llvm on OS X because of the system llvm. 2015-11-12T04:15:36Z loke: drmeister: Yeah, I used to be a huge fan of OSX some 10+ years ago. It's been steadily going downhill since around version 10.5 2015-11-12T04:15:52Z loke: I still use it on my laptop, but at this point I doubt my next laptop will be osx. 2015-11-12T04:20:00Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-12T04:22:04Z bopple joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:23:13Z bopple quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T04:24:36Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T04:24:52Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:25:32Z drmeister: Ok, I pushed the changes to testing_37. I haven't built it in a while so it's probably going to fail - but that would be informative and helpful if you could tell me where. 2015-11-12T04:25:47Z drmeister: In the meantime I'm downloading Arch linux and I'll set up a VM 2015-11-12T04:27:18Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-12T04:27:27Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T04:28:37Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:29:03Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T04:29:36Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:30:39Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T04:35:16Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:37:07Z loke: OK, building 2015-11-12T04:40:31Z cmoney quit 2015-11-12T04:41:12Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:41:15Z loke: drmeister: Got error: 2015-11-12T04:41:16Z loke: ../../include/clasp/llvmo/llvmoExpose.h:49:10: fatal error: 'llvm/PassManager.h' file not found 2015-11-12T04:41:17Z loke: #include 2015-11-12T04:44:12Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:48:48Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:49:01Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:49:29Z psy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T04:49:48Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:50:23Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:51:32Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T04:54:52Z Xach: drmeister: i don't have that kind of info, sorry 2015-11-12T04:55:39Z drmeister: No problem - thanks. 2015-11-12T04:55:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-12T04:56:06Z theos: i might try out stumpwm and see if i can work with it 2015-11-12T04:56:12Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Woo. 2015-11-12T07:01:11Z loke__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T07:01:18Z Shinmera: (That's plump, clss, and lquery) 2015-11-12T07:01:27Z loke: drmeister: Yes, of course 2015-11-12T07:01:36Z loke: drmeister: Are there any 32-bit distributions still out there? 2015-11-12T07:01:48Z Shinmera: Plenty. 2015-11-12T07:01:59Z Shinmera: Not 32x-only though. 2015-11-12T07:02:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T07:02:16Z loke: Shinmera: Well, yes of course. All of them has 32-bit libraries (as do I) 2015-11-12T07:02:24Z loke: But the default when compiling is 64-bit 2015-11-12T07:02:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-12T07:03:10Z Shinmera: No, I mean, there's no distribution to my knowledge that only offers a 32x line and no 64x line. There are however plenty of distributions that offer both 64x and 32x lines. 2015-11-12T07:03:22Z Shinmera: Arch being one of them with i686. 2015-11-12T07:03:40Z loke: Shinmera: Oh, I see 2015-11-12T07:03:59Z jackdaniel: openwrt comes to mind 2015-11-12T07:04:02Z loke: Anyway, why would the distributions bitness matter in this case? Is clasp 32-bit only? 2015-11-12T07:04:11Z Shinmera: Clasp is 64x only. 2015-11-12T07:04:19Z loke: jackdaniel: And Android versions prior to 6. 2015-11-12T07:04:42Z jackdaniel: bah, I'm wrong 2015-11-12T07:04:46Z jackdaniel: wrt has 64 line 2015-11-12T07:05:07Z loke: Well, the compile error of clasp that I have seems to be pretty obvious. It tries to include PassManager.h from llvm/ instead of llvm/IR/ 2015-11-12T07:05:30Z Shinmera: Yes, llvm37 support is still not there. I really don't know why he asked you to try again. 2015-11-12T07:06:13Z loke: Shinmera: he said he made some fixes for it. 2015-11-12T07:06:36Z Shinmera: Well, it hasn't worked on my build machines ever, so 2015-11-12T07:07:05Z loke: He just comitted :-) 2015-11-12T07:07:12Z loke: But, apparently he didn't fix it all. 2015-11-12T07:07:29Z Shinmera: He hasn't worked on it to my knowledge in a good while, mostly because more important things have cropped up. 2015-11-12T07:07:43Z Shinmera: The commit just now was merely a merge. 2015-11-12T07:08:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T07:08:11Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T07:08:44Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T07:09:12Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-12T07:09:15Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T07:09:28Z Shinmera: llvm37 support is scheduled for 0.5.0 for now. We really need to get 0.4.0 out of the door, so I'm willing to drop that for the next release. 2015-11-12T07:09:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I already knew programming when started learning lisp. It gives more insight into what programming is 2015-11-12T08:15:35Z jackdaniel: lol is more tutorial-like (also didn't read the whole thing) 2015-11-12T08:16:29Z Shinmera: A couple of friends of mine read Gentle and had a good time with it. 2015-11-12T08:16:34Z zz_m: Gentle sounds better then 2015-11-12T08:16:53Z zz_m: I read the intro of gentl, thought it sounded better compared to Land of lisp 2015-11-12T08:16:54Z theos: zz_m read ANSI CL by paul graham or On Lisp. 2015-11-12T08:16:55Z Shinmera: From what I've heard LoL is nice if you want to just play around a bit afterwards. 2015-11-12T08:17:04Z zz_m: theos: Why? 2015-11-12T08:17:06Z Shinmera: theos: Are you crazy 2015-11-12T08:17:09Z theos: :D 2015-11-12T08:17:43Z theos: they are good books. just need time to understand everything. 2015-11-12T08:17:47Z zz_m: That wasn't a serious suggestion was it? 2015-11-12T08:17:50Z jackdaniel: zz_m: ANSI CL is for experienced (non-cl) programmers while On Lisp is for experienced CL programmers 2015-11-12T08:18:10Z Shinmera: zz_m: Not if you're new to programming, and even if you weren't it's still not a good way to start. 2015-11-12T08:18:19Z zz_m: jackdaniel: I will be avoiding those books then. 2015-11-12T08:18:37Z jackdaniel: zz_m: don't! It's a must read. But not for a starter :) these are great books 2015-11-12T08:18:43Z jackdaniel: one of my CL favourites 2015-11-12T08:18:49Z zz_m: jackdaniel: I mean for now :) 2015-11-12T08:18:53Z jackdaniel: right :p 2015-11-12T08:19:07Z theos: zz_m it was serious. i started with those. couldnt understand half of it. but turns out even if you understand 10percent of that book, you learn more than most lisp books 2015-11-12T08:19:22Z zz_m: Such a friendly chat, thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback 2015-11-12T08:19:39Z theos: zz_m or get PAIP 2015-11-12T08:19:54Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:19:58Z zz_m: theos: Well, thanks for the suggestion but I feel like if I tried such a difficult book it would only intimidate me haha 2015-11-12T08:20:11Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:20:13Z zz_m: I guess you have more of the hacker spirit than I do theos 2015-11-12T08:20:16Z theos: wussy :P 2015-11-12T08:20:20Z zz_m: :P 2015-11-12T08:20:57Z Shinmera: From a didactic standpoint not understanding 90% is definitely not a plus by any means. 2015-11-12T08:21:21Z theos: zz_m try out PAIP then. its more of an application-oriented book. and it teaches lisp too. 2015-11-12T08:21:32Z zz_m: theos: What is PAIP? 2015-11-12T08:21:44Z zz_m: Please, I don't know these acronyms 2015-11-12T08:21:52Z Shinmera: minion: PAIP 2015-11-12T08:21:53Z minion: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 2015-11-12T08:21:59Z theos: http://norvig.com/paip.html 2015-11-12T08:22:10Z zz_m: I want to learn lisp not AI O_o 2015-11-12T08:22:19Z Shinmera: It has an intro chapter to lisp 2015-11-12T08:22:25Z Shinmera: But again, not a good book to start programming with. 2015-11-12T08:22:28Z Shinmera: Go with Gentle 2015-11-12T08:22:33Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:22:39Z zz_m: I am 2015-11-12T08:22:51Z zz_m: Not really interested in AI anyway 2015-11-12T08:23:00Z Shinmera: PAIP is worth reading later, as it does lots of interesting stuff with lisp. 2015-11-12T08:23:13Z theos: zz_m what else do you want to do? AI is everywhere! 2015-11-12T08:23:23Z zz_m: theos: Security 2015-11-12T08:24:02Z theos: zz_m AI is used a LOT in security. without AI, you have to depend on humans and humans are the weakest link 2015-11-12T08:24:03Z zz_m: But I have a ways to go and lots to learn; love it. 2015-11-12T08:24:17Z zz_m: theos: Example of AI in security? 2015-11-12T08:24:39Z theos: zz_m biometric scanners? 2015-11-12T08:27:01Z Bike: PAIP is a good book. It is not really about any AI you would use, it just uses historical examples that are essentially obsolete, like that planning thing or integration. 2015-11-12T08:27:03Z theos: zz_m if you use a machine, it has AI inside. from printers to airplanes and guns etc. AI is so common that you are using it without even realizing. 2015-11-12T08:27:07Z Bike: symbolic integration, i mean 2015-11-12T08:27:11Z theos: ^^ 2015-11-12T08:27:20Z Bike: so this is kind of a weird and unnecessary sale going on here 2015-11-12T08:27:46Z Zhivago: theos: Which printers use ai? 2015-11-12T08:28:16Z zz_m: Well I'm sure as I gain more experience and knowledge I'll figure out what I need to learn 2015-11-12T08:28:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:28:20Z zz_m: For now Gentle it is 2015-11-12T08:28:29Z Shinmera: zz_m: Have fun! 2015-11-12T08:28:36Z zz_m: Thanks Shinmera! 2015-11-12T08:28:48Z Zhivago: Generally those things do not use ai, since ai is unreliable due to learning. 2015-11-12T08:30:04Z Zhivago: It would be problematic if printers could not reproduce one anothers output, for example. 2015-11-12T08:30:07Z theos: Zhivago every printer 2015-11-12T08:30:24Z Zhivago: theos: You appear delusional. 2015-11-12T08:30:33Z theos: AI is just if-then-else 2015-11-12T08:30:47Z Zhivago: And ignorant. 2015-11-12T08:30:49Z Shinmera: Zhivago: Maybe they have AI to decide whether they should actually implement HALT AND CATCH ON FIRE :) 2015-11-12T08:30:50Z theos: :) 2015-11-12T08:31:13Z theos: Zhivago why so serious? 2015-11-12T08:31:33Z Shinmera: Because you're misleading someone who might not know better for no real reason. 2015-11-12T08:31:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T08:31:57Z theos: i am not misleading. AI doesnt have to be a robot killing machine from the future. 2015-11-12T08:32:00Z Zhivago: theos: It's preferable to pretending to be mentally retarded. 2015-11-12T08:32:21Z theos: Zhivago has it worked for you? 2015-11-12T08:32:43Z Zhivago: Let me know when theos needs quieting. 2015-11-12T08:34:05Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-12T08:34:19Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:34:38Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:35:02Z mastokley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T08:35:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:35:28Z theos: aight! i will just watch and no talk. 2015-11-12T08:38:30Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T08:40:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T08:40:51Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:42:36Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:45:04Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:45:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T08:46:43Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-12T08:47:19Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T11:27:04Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:30:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:30:04Z mtl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:30:07Z Cymew: I just read the following in the ASDF src, and since LOOP always throws me for a... eh. loop? I don't becomes any more enlightened by TFM. What does that FOR thing do? " (loop* :for (o . c) :in steps" 2015-11-12T11:30:21Z mtl_: anyone in here read the book Let Over Lambda? 2015-11-12T11:30:41Z Shinmera: Cymew: It destructures. 2015-11-12T11:31:03Z Shinmera: O is bound to the CAR and C to the CDR 2015-11-12T11:31:11Z Shinmera: So, steps is most likely an alist. 2015-11-12T11:31:52Z mtl_: i'm having trouble running the code in the book 2015-11-12T11:32:05Z Cymew: Shinmera: so O is sequentially bound to the CAR and C is sequentially bound to C? 2015-11-12T11:32:22Z Shinmera: mtl_: LoL relies on unspecified behaviour, so it's not surprising that it might break. 2015-11-12T11:32:42Z mtl_: Shinmera: that's what it feels like to me too 2015-11-12T11:32:57Z Cymew: I did not manage to get a test case to work. I'll try with a alist and see how that works. 2015-11-12T11:33:08Z mtl_: the defmacro/g! macro isn't working right 2015-11-12T11:33:30Z Shinmera: mtl_: Generally because of this and other stylistic quirks and oddities, LoL is generally not considered to be a good book. 2015-11-12T11:35:00Z mtl_: yeah, there's definitely something off about it 2015-11-12T11:35:05Z mtl_: it does have interesting topics though 2015-11-12T11:35:16Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T11:38:30Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T11:38:39Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:38:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:39:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:41:22Z mtl_: Shinmera: http://pastie.org/10552360 2015-11-12T11:41:27Z mtl_: this is the issue I'm having 2015-11-12T11:42:03Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:42:57Z mtl_: clearly the issue is that the predicate is passed ,G!RESULT instead of G!RESULT, hence returning nil 2015-11-12T11:43:43Z abbe: hi 2015-11-12T11:44:56Z mtl_: so i'm guessing this issue is due to compiler dependent behaviour or something? 2015-11-12T11:45:58Z abbe: I'm using SBCL 1.3.0, and I'm trying to create a bivalent stream corresponding to a socket by doing something like "(sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream *socket* :element-type :default ...)", but when I write to write bytes using `write-sequence', I get TYPE-ERROR complaining about value not being of CHARACTER type. 2015-11-12T11:46:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T11:48:06Z mtl_: abbe: have you tried it with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ? 2015-11-12T11:49:07Z Shinmera: mtl_: The internal representation of backquote and unquote are not specified. 2015-11-12T11:49:15Z abbe: nope, i've not tried that. also code in question: https://pastebin.com/mqrj5XN0 2015-11-12T11:49:17Z Shinmera: Which is what this might be hitting, is my guess. 2015-11-12T11:50:12Z abbe: let me try that. 2015-11-12T11:50:24Z mtl_: Shinmera: yeah, i'm guessing whatever implementation the author used happens do something similar to turning 'foo into (QUOTE FOO) 2015-11-12T11:50:35Z Shinmera: That part is specified. 2015-11-12T11:50:43Z Shinmera: But what ` and , turn into is not. 2015-11-12T11:50:50Z mtl_: yeah, that's what I meant 2015-11-12T11:51:07Z Shinmera: So yeah. Primitive code-walking is a Bad Thing™ 2015-11-12T11:51:45Z abbe: and now it says, I can't write a character, because it's not a character output stream 2015-11-12T11:51:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:54:05Z mtl_: Shinmera: well I guess I'll just skim the book and not worry too much about getting the code to run 2015-11-12T11:54:41Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-12T11:54:45Z Shinmera: mtl_: Sure. It's interesting for the ideas it presents, but most of it is not code you should be using for anything. 2015-11-12T11:59:19Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T12:00:25Z mtl_: that defmacro/g! and defmacro! stuff is just syntactic sugar anyway 2015-11-12T12:00:26Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:00:44Z mtl_: I'm sure I can find more reasonable ways to do things along the way 2015-11-12T12:01:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:01:50Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:02:24Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:02:54Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:03:15Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:04:18Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:04:39Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:07:06Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:07:43Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:07:55Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:07:58Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:10:13Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-12T12:12:50Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:14:01Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:16:58Z ukari_ quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-12T12:17:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:17:18Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-12T12:17:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:17:54Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:18:05Z netrobyatmobile joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:19:27Z sfa_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:20:45Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-12T12:23:20Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:24:56Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:26:24Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:26:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:27:14Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:28:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:28:14Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:31:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:33:37Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-12T12:34:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:37:14Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:38:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:41:17Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:44:47Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T12:45:26Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:47:28Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:48:10Z Xach: abbe: what kind of sequence are you giving to write-sequence? 2015-11-12T12:50:10Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:50:31Z abbe: Xach: (write-sequence sock #(5 1 0 3 )) 2015-11-12T12:50:52Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:51:00Z abbe: works fine, if I set element-type to '(unsigned-byte 8) 2015-11-12T12:51:14Z abbe: and then later in the code, I'm trying to write a sequence of characters as well 2015-11-12T12:52:20Z abbe: as per documentation, it's supposed to provide bivalent stream if :element-type is set to :default 2015-11-12T12:53:15Z mtl_: abbe: maybe you want to always write bytes to the stream 2015-11-12T12:53:45Z mtl_: so put the characters through (map 'vector #'char-code characters) 2015-11-12T12:53:59Z abbe: or babel:string-to-octets 2015-11-12T12:54:15Z mtl_: yeah 2015-11-12T12:54:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:55:16Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T12:55:50Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:56:13Z mtl_: here's some code I use to write strings to a socket in one of my programs http://pastie.org/10552462# 2015-11-12T12:56:31Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T12:56:35Z mtl_: the \r\n is just because it's writing to an irc server 2015-11-12T12:56:44Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:57:32Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:57:53Z Shinmera: Otherwise, flexi-streams allows things like writing octets and characters to the same stream. 2015-11-12T12:58:33Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-12T12:58:55Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T12:59:46Z mbrock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T13:00:02Z mbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:01:24Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:03:16Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T13:03:26Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:04:35Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:05:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:07:21Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:10:34Z scymtym: abbe: works here for IPv4 with SBCL roughly 1.3.0. can you paste a backtrace and TRACE SB-SYS:MAKE-FD-STREAM and DESCRIBE the returned stream instance? 2015-11-12T13:11:10Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:11:29Z abbe: scymtym: with :element-type :default ? 2015-11-12T13:12:57Z scymtym: yes, otherwise you definitely don't get a bivalent stream 2015-11-12T13:12:59Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:13:23Z yvm quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:13:58Z abbe: I saw problem now :( 2015-11-12T13:14:18Z abbe: in my code, I was doing: (write-sequence '(5 1 0) sock) 2015-11-12T13:14:20Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:14:27Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:14:27Z abbe: sorry! :( 2015-11-12T13:15:00Z abbe: changing that to #(5 1 0) works 2015-11-12T13:15:04Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:15:15Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:15:36Z abbe: thanks for the replies, and sorry for wasting everyone's time. 2015-11-12T13:15:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:16:49Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:17:27Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T13:23:17Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:23:56Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-12T13:24:18Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T13:25:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:26:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:29:19Z jack-zhang quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:30:32Z arrubin quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-12T13:32:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-12T13:32:56Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:35:39Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:36:53Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:38:02Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:38:42Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-12T13:42:21Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:43:31Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T13:43:46Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:45:00Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T13:45:56Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:47:40Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:51:39Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-11-12T13:55:41Z scymtym: abbe: you may still have found a bug. iiuc, '(5 1 0) should also work. 2015-11-12T13:56:16Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T13:58:23Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-12T13:59:08Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T13:59:35Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:01:19Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:01:49Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:05:09Z abbe: but isn't type of '(5 1 0) different? it complains: The value 5 is not of type CHARACTER. (TYPE-ERROR) 2015-11-12T14:06:09Z scymtym: abbe: that's the (suspected) bug 2015-11-12T14:06:33Z scymtym: '(5 1 0) is a sequence of octets which should be fine for a bivalent stream 2015-11-12T14:06:44Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:07:05Z abbe: okay 2015-11-12T14:07:26Z abbe: I'll post in #sbcl, and file a bug report, if it's indeed a buggy behaviour 2015-11-12T14:08:30Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:11:35Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T14:11:59Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:16:58Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:18:15Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T14:22:18Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T14:22:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T14:24:11Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T14:27:48Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:43:13Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:43:58Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-12T14:44:04Z gdmalet joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:44:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:44:34Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-12T14:44:34Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:44:48Z gdmalet is now known as gilez_ 2015-11-12T14:44:53Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T14:44:57Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T14:45:07Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:45:42Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-12T14:46:26Z ferada: should setting file-position work on string-input-streams? e.g. resetting the position back to the start of the string 2015-11-12T14:48:34Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:48:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T14:48:49Z gilez quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-12T14:48:56Z gilez_ is now known as gilez 2015-11-12T14:50:06Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T14:54:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:59:02Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-12T14:59:44Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-11-12T15:00:08Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:04:47Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T15:08:17Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:10:32Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:10:32Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T15:14:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:14:51Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:16:53Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:17:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:18:12Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:21:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:25:20Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:27:54Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T15:28:44Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T15:29:28Z vydd` joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:29:35Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:29:48Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:31:17Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:32:48Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:32:59Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:34:08Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:35:34Z vydd` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:36:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:37:43Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:38:24Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:39:17Z kushal quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-12T15:42:58Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:43:14Z otwieracz: How can I zero memory with CFFI? 2015-11-12T15:43:43Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T15:44:08Z otwieracz: Some foreign function always return the same pointer. 2015-11-12T15:44:21Z otwieracz: New data overwrites old, but not everywhere. 2015-11-12T15:44:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:46:21Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:47:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:50:29Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:52:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T15:53:43Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T15:54:50Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:55:30Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T15:56:36Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T15:56:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T15:56:50Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T15:58:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:00:47Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:01:17Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:01:54Z ferada: otwieracz: call memset(3), or loop with MEM-REF, or what do you mean? 2015-11-12T16:04:31Z otwieracz: Well, I've already created memset binding :-) 2015-11-12T16:05:00Z zz_m: Which Common Lisp implementation should I install? I'm new to programming, not sure what I should choose 2015-11-12T16:05:06Z zz_m: I'm on linux (ubuntu) 2015-11-12T16:05:50Z Bike: sbcl or clisp, which i think are both in ubuntu repos 2015-11-12T16:05:57Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:06:17Z zz_m: Does it matter which one I choose? What are the differences? 2015-11-12T16:06:26Z zwdr: Yea, those two are always popping up 2015-11-12T16:06:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:07:28Z zz_m: All these tutorials are suggesting I use emacs haha 2015-11-12T16:07:33Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T16:07:44Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:08:03Z Bike: they won't matter for basic stuff. 2015-11-12T16:08:13Z Bike: they both follow the standard 2015-11-12T16:08:42Z Bike: ferada: i can't find an explicit statement in the clhs one way or the other, but it works for me, at least. 2015-11-12T16:09:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:09:43Z Shinmera: zz_m: Emacs has a very good Lisp IDE package called Slime. The usual recommendation is to use that. 2015-11-12T16:10:25Z zz_m: Shinmera: I usually use vim but I will give it a try since I see it recommended so much 2015-11-12T16:10:52Z zz_m: I only edit files and little stuff in vim though, so maybe emacs is better for programming (idk) 2015-11-12T16:11:02Z loke_: zz_m: There is Evil mode in Emacs. According to some vim users, it's a better vim than vim. 2015-11-12T16:11:05Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:11:19Z loke_: zz_m: Buf if you ask us, of course, we'll tell you that Emacs is better. 2015-11-12T16:11:21Z zwdr: well, there's evil-mode for emacs which adds a usable editor to emacs 2015-11-12T16:11:51Z loke_: zwdr: For a very narrow, specific and unique definition of "usable". :-) 2015-11-12T16:12:07Z zwdr: of course :v 2015-11-12T16:12:42Z Bike: whatevs. if you're just going through gentle you don't need any IDE. 2015-11-12T16:12:49Z zwdr: I'd rather avoid RSI though 2015-11-12T16:12:58Z zwdr: and that seems to be a real problem with emacs 2015-11-12T16:13:32Z jdz: for some people 2015-11-12T16:13:42Z Bike: REAL emacs users just grow more joints 2015-11-12T16:13:52Z ferada: Bike: ah thanks, i forgot to try on sbcl first -.- 2015-11-12T16:14:08Z zz_m: installing sbcl now 2015-11-12T16:14:31Z loke_: zwdr: Easy solution, map control to caps lock. 2015-11-12T16:15:43Z le4fy: can confirm the control to caps lock thing is really nice 2015-11-12T16:15:56Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:16:05Z netrobyatmobile quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-12T16:16:12Z le4fy: i feel like it's saving my pinky from arthritis or something 2015-11-12T16:16:33Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-11-12T16:16:33Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:16:47Z zwdr: sounds like a good idea loke_ 2015-11-12T16:17:14Z loke_: Right now, I am booted into windows (to pay a game) but ssh'ed into another system so that I can irc from Erc... Of course, the windows does not have caps lock mapped to control and I only have to press control a couple of times before the pain sets in. Man, the default control location is completely and utterly useless. 2015-11-12T16:19:18Z j_king: I still don't have RSI. I don't know what the big complaint is there. 2015-11-12T16:19:42Z j_king: I was a vim users for ~8 years before I switched to emacs. been using it ever since. 2015-11-12T16:19:47Z loke_: j_king: count yourself lucky 2015-11-12T16:19:57Z j_king: and I switched to emacs because of lisp. :S 2015-11-12T16:20:05Z loke_: j_king: you've used emacs for years without remapping control? 2015-11-12T16:20:14Z j_king: no, that was the first thing I dod. 2015-11-12T16:20:18Z j_king: s/dod/did/ :) 2015-11-12T16:20:24Z loke_: j_king: ah, then I understand :-) 2015-11-12T16:20:39Z j_king: I used to do the same thing for ESC in vim. 2015-11-12T16:20:52Z loke_: j_king: where did you put esc? 2015-11-12T16:20:56Z j_king: caps 2015-11-12T16:20:59Z loke_: Oh 2015-11-12T16:21:11Z j_king: didn't realize how tedious switching modes was. 2015-11-12T16:21:30Z j_king: it all comes out in the wash to be about the same though. 2015-11-12T16:22:05Z zwdr: the only thing annoying about this stuff is when you ssh to lots of boxes 2015-11-12T16:22:10Z zwdr: which wont have you configs 2015-11-12T16:22:17Z j_king: the thing that really convinced me to stay, besides SLIME, was emacs-lisp. whatever the hell vim was using for scripting at the time was... not a programming language. 2015-11-12T16:22:34Z j_king: use tramp. 2015-11-12T16:22:41Z j_king: leaving configs on boxen is... icky. 2015-11-12T16:22:45Z loke_: j_king: Vim has been using vimscript for many years. Have they changed to something usable now? 2015-11-12T16:22:52Z zz_m: where did this s/what_i_said/what_i_meant come from? 2015-11-12T16:22:58Z zz_m: I see people doing it all the time 2015-11-12T16:23:07Z loke_: zz_m: Sed 2015-11-12T16:23:10Z j_king: loke_: I wouldn't know. 2015-11-12T16:23:33Z loke_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed 2015-11-12T16:23:48Z zz_m: thanks 2015-11-12T16:23:50Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:24:01Z loke_: zz_m: Look at the "usage" section 2015-11-12T16:24:02Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-12T16:24:09Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:24:09Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:24:18Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:25:36Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:25:45Z chu joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:26:55Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T16:27:21Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:28:05Z loke_ looks at the vimscript tutorials... Wow. That's a nightmare. 2015-11-12T16:29:13Z dwchandler: vimscript is grotesque 2015-11-12T16:30:16Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T16:30:37Z zz_m: emacs is large 2015-11-12T16:31:05Z loke_: zz_m: Thankfully you don't have to use everything in it :-) 2015-11-12T16:31:10Z loke_: Most of us don't. 2015-11-12T16:31:28Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:31:58Z loke_: I have only used a fraction of it (even though there are Emacs packages with my name on it) and I've used Emacs for... Hmm... 25 years. 2015-11-12T16:33:00Z zz_m: so after i install emacs I just need slime? 2015-11-12T16:33:04Z zz_m: And then Im good to go? 2015-11-12T16:33:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:33:34Z loke_: zz_m: What operating system are you using? 2015-11-12T16:33:41Z zz_m: Linux (Ubuntu) 2015-11-12T16:34:17Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-12T16:34:22Z Bike: you should get quicklisp. 2015-11-12T16:34:25Z loke_: zz_m: check the accepted answer here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12607716/setting-the-slime-in-emacs 2015-11-12T16:34:27Z Bike: you can install slime through it, too 2015-11-12T16:34:35Z arnsholt: zz_m: There's also a Vim package called slimv, which apparently duplicates most of slime for vim. I've not gotten around to getting it to work with the codebase I have to work on (because legacy code and such), but that's another option if you prefer to stay in vim 2015-11-12T16:34:36Z loke_: zz_m: That's all you need to do. 2015-11-12T16:35:05Z loke_: arnsholt: True, but I don't think any slimv users are on this channel, so getting help here with it would be difficult. 2015-11-12T16:35:16Z arnsholt: Evil-mode gets you most of the way to an editor you don't have to fight all the time, though. There are a couple of things that aren't quite the same, but it helps a lot 2015-11-12T16:35:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:35:57Z arnsholt: Yeah, fixing slimv problems would probably mean debugging the vimscript yourself (gah!) or finding some people who do use it 2015-11-12T16:37:09Z arnsholt: But I've been meaning to give it another shot. Having to regularly fight your tools while programming is pretty annoying 2015-11-12T16:37:40Z zz_m: arnsholt: I'm just going to use what everyone else uses 2015-11-12T16:37:52Z zz_m: Rather not make simple things complex 2015-11-12T16:38:01Z arnsholt: Yeah, easier to get help and such that way 2015-11-12T16:39:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T16:39:08Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:40:02Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T16:40:15Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T16:40:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:43:01Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T16:43:13Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:47:03Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:49:35Z jasom: dwchandler: can you see why TCL was considered a better embedded language than what other apps had circa 1990? 2015-11-12T16:50:45Z jasom: zz_m: I use emacs + evil-mode + slime for lisp development and vim for everything else 2015-11-12T16:51:31Z zz_m: I'll have to check this evil-mode out 2015-11-12T16:51:36Z jasom: zz_m: Biggest difference is you need to use ^G to get out of places rather than ^] 2015-11-12T16:51:50Z jasom: zz_m: or C-g instead of Esc in emacs speak. 2015-11-12T16:51:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:52:34Z mcsh4ggy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:52:54Z le4fy: mcsh4ggy: hey 2015-11-12T16:53:01Z mcsh4ggy: hey man 2015-11-12T16:53:50Z dwchandler: jasom: I'm still using plain vim + repl. I may have to break down and try evil mode + slime 2015-11-12T16:55:21Z br0kenman quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-12T16:55:52Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T16:56:16Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T16:56:58Z dfcat: there is always 'viper' mode if you need your vi-like syntax in emacs too.. i'm not sure why vim exists when things like that are around.. 2015-11-12T16:57:01Z jasom: dwchandler: I got there gradually; when I switched from clisp to sbcl I wanted a better repl, and linedit was still to primitive. So I started using slime just as my REPL 2015-11-12T16:57:08Z jasom: dfcat: viper is horrible for vim users 2015-11-12T16:57:16Z dfcat: but not for nvi users :D 2015-11-12T16:57:45Z jasom: dfcat: evil-mode is good for vim users; it'st the first vim emulation layer I've used that I can go for hours without being surprised by what it does. 2015-11-12T16:57:49Z dfcat: alternately: vim is horrible for vi users 2015-11-12T16:58:07Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T16:58:15Z jasom: dfcat: an unconfigured vim is 100% keystroke compatible with sVr4 vi 2015-11-12T16:58:20Z mobius-eng quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T16:58:47Z dfcat: but against the 'spirit' of vi, imho 2015-11-12T16:58:50Z dfcat: it is the cat -v of vi 2015-11-12T16:59:14Z dfcat: but i'm just some dude, so yaknow :) 2015-11-12T16:59:19Z jasom: :) 2015-11-12T17:00:00Z jasom: I think that's different because it's not like vi is pipable in general; it would be hard to e.g. implement syntax highlighting in a separate program from vi 2015-11-12T17:00:11Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:00:20Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T17:00:29Z dfcat: i'm not up on the ideosyncracies of vi-in-emacs flavors - my point is more: vi should be for small/fast basic edits, no fancy stuff.. emacs exists to be extensible, so thats where the effort for extensability should go 2015-11-12T17:00:51Z jasom: ah 2015-11-12T17:01:01Z dfcat: so vim, being extensible, is itself incorrect 2015-11-12T17:01:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:01:25Z dfcat: but whatever floats the colletive boat, i suppose :D 2015-11-12T17:01:54Z jasom: I do agree that it's easier to implement vim in emacs than to implement extensions in vim 2015-11-12T17:02:10Z peterhil quit (Quit: peterhil) 2015-11-12T17:02:10Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:02:29Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:02:47Z dfcat: yea - and i'm pretty sure there were vi-in-emacsen before vim existed,though i haven't done my research 2015-11-12T17:03:41Z dfcat: and so most people think vim *is* vi, much like they think bash is sh, etc. 2015-11-12T17:03:43Z jasom: My first vi was Oak Hill vi for MSDOS, but I started using vim in the mid '90s 2015-11-12T17:04:16Z dfcat: i'm kind of gathering the tinder for a flamewar i think.. so i stop haha :D 2015-11-12T17:04:36Z jasom: https://archive.org/details/msdos_VI60A1_shareware <-- there it is 2015-11-12T17:04:41Z dfcat: nice 2015-11-12T17:06:23Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:06:33Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:06:58Z mcsh4ggy quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-12T17:07:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:07:54Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:08:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:09:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:10:17Z ski joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:12:21Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:13:17Z erjoalgo: there should be no problem with defining an array of structs or array of clos, right? 2015-11-12T17:13:43Z erjoalgo: *clos objects 2015-11-12T17:13:44Z Xach: no problem and little benefit 2015-11-12T17:16:27Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:17:27Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-12T17:19:06Z xach quit (Input/output error) 2015-11-12T17:20:13Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:20:27Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:22:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:22:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-12T17:22:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:23:51Z zz_m: how do I use emacs from the term? It starts the gui by default 2015-11-12T17:24:11Z erjoalgo: emacs -nw? 2015-11-12T17:25:28Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:26:01Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:26:18Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:26:38Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:27:02Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:27:45Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-12T17:28:26Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:29:30Z reb````: zz_m: Run "emacs --help" or "man emacs" to find out about command line arguments. 2015-11-12T17:30:53Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:31:12Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:31:12Z dwchandler: dfcat: the vi paradigm is not inherently good for simple editing and bad for complex stuff 2015-11-12T17:31:51Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:32:13Z dwchandler: vi itself (like nvi) is a really nice sysadmin tool. super fast and all. but there's zero reason why an extensible editor can't do vi-style editing, like vim 2015-11-12T17:32:37Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-12T17:32:40Z dwchandler: the problem with vim is that it has problems, nothing to do with extending vi 2015-11-12T17:32:56Z dwchandler: as evil mode shows, basically 2015-11-12T17:33:31Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:33:49Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:34:05Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:34:17Z dwchandler: vim's problems are architectural, and project/political 2015-11-12T17:34:24Z dbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:35:24Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:35:24Z Xach: And offtopical. 2015-11-12T17:37:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T17:40:08Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-12T17:41:05Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:41:08Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T17:41:13Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:42:48Z erjoalgo: offtopical 2015-11-12T17:43:59Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:44:15Z dwchandler: ok 2015-11-12T17:45:05Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:45:11Z dbrock quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.2) 2015-11-12T17:49:49Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T17:50:06Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:51:45Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:54:47Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:56:30Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:56:45Z whartung quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T17:57:03Z fleaswallow joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:57:06Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T17:57:15Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T17:57:36Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-12T20:36:06Z jlarocco_work joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:37:29Z warweasle: Xach: I did a quick test, changed x to foo and used (x x) and got back (foo foo) 2015-11-12T20:38:10Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:38:12Z warweasle: Xach: Oh, maybe I useed it as a variable! 2015-11-12T20:38:34Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T20:38:51Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:39:20Z mastokley quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T20:39:29Z Xach: warweasle: maybe...it works as i would expect locally, i.e. not replacing symbols in function positions 2015-11-12T20:40:14Z warweasle: Xach: Yes, I just typoed my test. 2015-11-12T20:40:39Z Xach: phew 2015-11-12T20:41:26Z warweasle: Xach: Sorry... 2015-11-12T20:44:33Z Xach is happy to discuss such things 2015-11-12T20:45:15Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T20:45:16Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T20:45:33Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:48:38Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:49:13Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T20:53:10Z Lord_of_- quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-12T20:55:30Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:55:50Z johs joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:56:18Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T20:56:52Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:58:24Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:59:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T20:59:33Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T21:02:42Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:03:41Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:04:09Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:06:08Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T21:07:20Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:08:22Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:08:40Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T21:09:24Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:10:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-12T21:12:09Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:12:19Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:14:23Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:14:38Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:15:42Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:15:46Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:16:43Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T21:17:15Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:17:31Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:18:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:18:42Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:18:43Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:19:02Z erjoalgo: is there a with-slots type of macro that I can use without annoying symbol package issues? 2015-11-12T21:19:26Z Bicyclidine: Meaning what, it just goes off symbol names and ignores packages? 2015-11-12T21:19:30Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-12T21:19:35Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:19:41Z erjoalgo: ie i'm trying to access slots from an object whose class is defined in another package. then i have to package-qualify the slots. 2015-11-12T21:19:42Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:20:11Z Xach: erjoalgo: same way you manage references to symbols in any other circumstance. if you don't want to use package prefixes, you can use the package in question, or selectively import symbols. 2015-11-12T21:20:14Z Bicyclidine: no. i mean, one class can have slot names that have the same symbol-name but different packages 2015-11-12T21:20:39Z Xach: "use" as in use-package or :use in defpackage 2015-11-12T21:21:51Z erjoalgo: my problem is that this would create a lot of clashing since a lot of properties are the same across multiple objects. is there a way, in a macro, to reference the package where the macro is being defined? 2015-11-12T21:22:13Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:22:25Z erjoalgo: *multiple objects of different classes defined in different packages. but the slot name symbols are always unique. 2015-11-12T21:22:44Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:23:28Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:23:32Z Bicyclidine: you could save *package*, but, like, don't do that. you can selectively import symbols and stuff if you really can't just use qualifiers. 2015-11-12T21:23:56Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:24:46Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:27:25Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:29:47Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-12T21:30:10Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-12T21:30:14Z jasom: erjoalgo: If the slots are semantically the same and you want to use them interchangably, then they should probably use the same symbol 2015-11-12T21:31:15Z malice: Hey guys! I am trying to implement "sandbox", where you can try things out and then go back to your working environment. This is what I have so far: http://ix.io/mbm . I am asking for two things. First is suggestions. 2015-11-12T21:31:59Z malice: The second thing is that in #'sandbox-stop, I get error(about not being able to print deleted package, I guess?). There's no error without #'delete-package, but then the package stays there instead of being deleted. 2015-11-12T21:32:12Z malice: What's causing the problem? I'm not trying to print the package or anything. 2015-11-12T21:33:34Z Bicyclidine: What is the error text more exactly? 2015-11-12T21:34:20Z malice: one sec 2015-11-12T21:34:32Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:34:58Z malice: Error (SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR) during printing: # 2015-11-12T21:35:10Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:35:18Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:35:43Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:35:45Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:36:01Z malice: Kind of looks like SWANK calls SB_INT:FIND-UNDELETED-PACKAGE-OR-LOSE 2015-11-12T21:36:18Z malice: But I'd like it to work with SWANK anyway... Not sure why SWANK wants to print it though. 2015-11-12T21:36:46Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T21:37:54Z Bicyclidine: is the backtrace a bunch of stuff about indentation? 2015-11-12T21:38:43Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:39:08Z malice: Bicyclidine: Yes. 2015-11-12T21:39:18Z Bicyclidine: ok, i'm not getting it again... 2015-11-12T21:39:24Z malice: What's wrong? 2015-11-12T21:39:55Z Bicyclidine: I only get the error the first time i run sandbox-stop. 2015-11-12T21:40:03Z Bicyclidine: if i start and then stop again there is no problem. 2015-11-12T21:40:14Z malice: Well, I get it every time... 2015-11-12T21:40:21Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T21:40:42Z malice: But then again I'm working on swank started from other console, and SLIME connected to it, so maybe it's why I'm getting different behaviour 2015-11-12T21:40:47Z snv joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:40:51Z malice: Anyway, bug is bug, no matter how many times it occures. 2015-11-12T21:40:59Z malice: occurres. 2015-11-12T21:41:19Z Bicyclidine: well yeah, i'm just trying to figure out what the problem is. 2015-11-12T21:41:24Z Bicyclidine: i get the same behavior on ccl 2015-11-12T21:42:14Z Bicyclidine: no error in a bare terminal, unsurprisingly 2015-11-12T21:42:42Z Bicyclidine: i am not sure why swank is doing this. gthe erorr pops up after it's already displayed the new CL-USER> prompt. 2015-11-12T21:43:06Z malice: Yes. That's why I'm also clueless. 2015-11-12T21:43:29Z malice: Thanks in advance, Bicyclidine. 2015-11-12T21:46:28Z Bicyclidine: The value "CL-USER" is not of the expected type # #x30004006434E>. this is going well 2015-11-12T21:46:57Z malice: What does it mean? 2015-11-12T21:47:28Z Bicyclidine: that was an unrelated mistake on my part, i just love recursive errors 2015-11-12T21:48:11Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:48:34Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T21:49:00Z Bicyclidine: well, anyway, reduction: (setf *package* (make-package "TEST" :use '("CL"))), then (progn (delete-package *package*) (setf *package* (find-package "CL-USER"))), same error as your sandbox thing. 2015-11-12T21:49:25Z Bicyclidine: What seems to happen is that swank updates its indentation rules whenever you change packages, and doing that for a deleted package, uh, fails. 2015-11-12T21:50:30Z Bicyclidine: but only the first time, at least for me. possibly due to some caching thing 2015-11-12T21:52:11Z malice: But I'm first changing the package, and then deleting it. 2015-11-12T21:52:46Z malice: Too bad. Any idea how I can bypass swank thing? 2015-11-12T21:54:16Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-12T21:56:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:57:17Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T21:58:19Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-12T21:58:24Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-12T22:00:04Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:01:42Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T22:01:47Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:01:59Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:02:10Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:02:46Z Bicyclidine: malice: order doesn't matter, it's just that you change from a deleted package in one repl command 2015-11-12T22:03:05Z Bicyclidine: malice: i would file a bug with slime/swank/whatever 2015-11-12T22:03:47Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:04:29Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:04:52Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:05:02Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:08:17Z malice: Bicyclidine: That's one way to do it. Okay, I'll try. 2015-11-12T22:09:34Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:11:49Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:12:14Z Bicyclidine: probably just need a (when package ...) wrapping in update-indentation/delta-for-emacs, somewhere 2015-11-12T22:14:59Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:15:28Z leafyba__ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:16:23Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T22:16:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:18:26Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:18:29Z tdc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:18:53Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:19:28Z tdc quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-12T22:19:50Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:20:44Z nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 2015-11-12T22:23:06Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:25:24Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:28:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:29:06Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-12T22:30:52Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:30:57Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:32:28Z ben_vulpes: what's an expedient way to get "non-lispers" up and running quickly with a package? my (probably horrendously naive) ideal flow would be "unpack this tar, type `sbcl' and then (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :my-package)" but i don't know enough yet about the mechanics of asdf to hammer the flow out myself. 2015-11-12T22:32:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:33:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:33:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:33:27Z resttime: ben_vulpes: Ship the image with the package preloaded. 2015-11-12T22:34:45Z resttime: SB-EXT:SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE 2015-11-12T22:35:48Z ben_vulpes: does slad readily ship sources as well? 2015-11-12T22:37:23Z Bicyclidine: slad doesn't ship anything, you do 2015-11-12T22:37:28Z Bicyclidine: are you asking if it works with M-. or what? 2015-11-12T22:37:34Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:38:53Z Bicyclidine: there's also stuff like buildapp that helps. 2015-11-12T22:39:10Z Xach: ben_vulpes: what are your goals for the end user? that they can hack on the project further? or that it's source-loadable but not necessarily hackable? or what? 2015-11-12T22:39:57Z ben_vulpes: Xach: that the project be hackable further, yes. and I think that I want "source-loadable", but don't quite know what you mean by that. 2015-11-12T22:40:03Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:41:50Z Xach: ben_vulpes: do you want people to hack on your project? or on the whole ecosystem of the product, i.e. the things your project depends on as well? 2015-11-12T22:45:10Z ben_vulpes: I'd settle for the former if the latter was a really monumental task, but given that I need to understand quicklisp/asdf et al in more depth I doubt that I'll object much to the work involved with the latter. 2015-11-12T22:45:14Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T22:45:32Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T22:46:05Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:46:25Z White_Flame: ben_vulpes: if you unzip into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, then any systems there will be immediately available to quickload 2015-11-12T22:46:30Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:47:38Z White_Flame: "unpack this tar into ~/quicklisp/local-projects, type 'sbcl' and then (ql:quickload "my-system")" 2015-11-12T22:48:22Z White_Flame: there's the additional step of installing quicklisp so it starts with sbcl 2015-11-12T22:48:33Z atgnag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:48:47Z White_Flame: but that could be bundled in with the tar, automatically giving the user ~/.sbcl and ~/quicklisp/* 2015-11-12T22:49:04Z White_Flame: erm, ~/.sbclrc 2015-11-12T22:49:26Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T22:49:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:49:59Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:50:18Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T22:51:30Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:51:59Z ben_vulpes: thanks, White_Flame 2015-11-12T22:52:01Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-12T22:52:17Z ben_vulpes: sounds like the best thing to do is document quicklisp installation 2015-11-12T22:52:48Z White_Flame: and that's already documented on the quicklisp site; just a wget, (load ...), and a call to install 2015-11-12T22:54:06Z ben_vulpes: right. 2015-11-12T22:54:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-12T22:56:20Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-12T22:56:59Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:57:56Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T22:58:44Z DeadTrickster: this script can run without sudo how surprising these days 2015-11-12T23:00:51Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:02:19Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T23:02:54Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-12T23:43:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-12T23:44:10Z mbrock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T23:44:47Z dbrock- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T23:45:26Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T23:46:02Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:46:28Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:46:34Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T23:46:49Z White_Flame: (loop for x in '(1 2 3 4 5) by (lambda (list) (if (= (car list) 3) (cddr list) (cdr list))) collect x) -> (1 2 3 5) 2015-11-12T23:47:04Z White_Flame: unfortunate that x isn't in visible to the lambda, though 2015-11-12T23:47:41Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:48:08Z White_Flame: however, the lambda can see any FOR/WITH/etc definitions above that FOR that it's a part of 2015-11-12T23:50:45Z Walex2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T23:50:50Z edran quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-12T23:50:56Z edran joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:51:02Z sepi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-12T23:51:28Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:52:43Z erjoalgo: actually. the reason the simple 'by' clause doesn't really work in my case is that i also need whatever is in between the car and whatever the 'by' clause predicate returns. i'm basically trying to group, let's say sequences of consecutive odd numbers terminated by an even, so '(1 3 2 1 1 2 3 3 4)==>'((1 3 2) (1 1 2) (3 3 4)) 2015-11-12T23:52:51Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T23:53:12Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T23:53:18Z sepi joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:53:29Z Bicyclidine: i'd just write that going one element at a time 2015-11-12T23:53:32Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:54:25Z Bicyclidine: (loop with total = nil with current = nil for x in list do (if (oddp x) (push x current) (push (nreverse (cons x current)) total))) except with less mistakes 2015-11-12T23:54:50Z White_Flame: loop for x _on_ list might also be more useful 2015-11-12T23:55:08Z Bicyclidine: wow yeah i fucked that up 2015-11-12T23:55:11Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:55:15Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:55:35Z defaultxr: does anyone have any idea why quicklisp can't find my package (in ~/.quicklisp/local-projects) when running it with cl-launch, but calling it manually using "sbcl --load ~/.sbclrc --script ~/path/script" works? 2015-11-12T23:55:54Z erjoalgo: yeah. i guess i was hoping i could get two values out of the by predicate, the "custom car" and "custom cdr". but that's fine. "on" was what i really going to do but was hoping for something cleaner 2015-11-12T23:55:57Z defaultxr: all that's in ~/.sbclrc is loading quicklisp, and when i use cl-launch i provide -Q 2015-11-12T23:56:00Z White_Flame: defaultxr: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/projname/proj.asd 2015-11-12T23:56:16Z White_Flame: also no dot in the ~/quicklisp directory 2015-11-12T23:56:18Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:56:32Z Bicyclidine: (loop with total = nil with current = nil for x in list do (cond ((oddp x) (push x current)) (t (push (nreverse (cons x current)) total) (setf current nil))) finally (return total)) works, go me 2015-11-12T23:56:42Z nicdev quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-12T23:57:07Z White_Flame: I think (let (total current) (dolist ...)) would be shorter 2015-11-12T23:57:39Z defaultxr: White_Flame: i have the .asd file. and moving .quicklisp to quicklisp doesn't change it. "The name "UTILITIES" does not designate any package." 2015-11-12T23:58:07Z defaultxr: also, cl-launch's documentation says ~/.quicklisp is checked if ~/quicklisp doesn't exist anyway 2015-11-12T23:58:18Z Xach: defaultxr: I don't know anything about cl-launch, but you do have to load quicklisp in order to be able to load quicklisp systems, generally. 2015-11-12T23:58:20Z Bicyclidine: (let (total current) (dolist (x list total) (cond ((oddp x) (push x current)) (t (push (nreverse (cons x current)) total) (setf current nil))))), so a bit 2015-11-12T23:58:25Z erjoalgo: i'm just going with a tail recursive function. @Bicyclidine yeah, I know i can do that but that's kind of what i was trying to avoid 2015-11-12T23:58:41Z Xach: defaultxr: unless you have some alternate way to use the quicklisp indexes to locate systems. i don't know if anyone does that, though. 2015-11-12T23:58:42Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-12T23:58:48Z defaultxr: Xach: i mentioned i'm using the -Q option with cl-launch, which loads quicklisp 2015-11-12T23:59:18Z defaultxr: but even if i manually put (load "/home/user/.sbclrc") in the file instead of the -Q i get the same error 2015-11-12T23:59:24Z Xach: defaultxr: What error do you get? 2015-11-12T23:59:40Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-12T23:59:43Z defaultxr: "The name "UTILITIES" does not designate any package." 2015-11-12T23:59:43Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T00:00:33Z defaultxr: works fine if i take cl-launch out of the equation. maybe i should just give up on it 2015-11-13T00:00:49Z Xach: defaultxr: is UTILITIES a package that's defined when your system is loaded? 2015-11-13T00:01:34Z defaultxr: it should be, it's in my quicklisp projects directory. i made utilities using quickproject 2015-11-13T00:01:38Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:01:44Z Xach: defaultxr: how do you load the system? 2015-11-13T00:01:56Z defaultxr: (ql:quickload :utilities) 2015-11-13T00:02:05Z Xach: defaultxr: That is in your script? 2015-11-13T00:02:08Z defaultxr: yes 2015-11-13T00:02:25Z defaultxr: that works fine, it only fails when i try to use the package in a defpackage in the script 2015-11-13T00:02:37Z Xach: defaultxr: perhaps cl-launch is compiling it first. you might have better luck if you add (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (ql:quickload :utilities)) 2015-11-13T00:02:54Z Xach: ql:quickload is just a function, so it won't have any effect at compile-time. 2015-11-13T00:04:30Z defaultxr: cool, that seems to have worked, though now the functions i'm trying to use from UTILITIES seem to not do anything, lol 2015-11-13T00:04:37Z defaultxr: thanks though, i think i can probaably work this part out 2015-11-13T00:06:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T00:06:07Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T00:06:29Z Xach: good luck with it! 2015-11-13T00:07:37Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T00:07:54Z defaultxr: thanks, and thanks for the help! and for quicklisp etc :p 2015-11-13T00:09:01Z Xach: no problem 2015-11-13T00:12:43Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:13:36Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:16:29Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:16:35Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T00:18:16Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:19:52Z mjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T00:23:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:24:32Z erjoalgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T00:24:41Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:24:52Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-13T00:52:26Z Cthulhux: my SBCL is in C:\Program Files\Steel Bank Common Lisp\1.3.0 2015-11-13T00:52:27Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T00:52:31Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T00:52:34Z Cthulhux: which was the suggested path by the installer... 2015-11-13T00:52:39Z antonv: ah 2015-11-13T00:52:45Z antonv: can you run previous release on win? 2015-11-13T00:52:57Z Cthulhux: 1.2.11 worked. 2015-11-13T00:52:57Z antonv: prev SBCL version on windows, can you run it? 2015-11-13T00:53:01Z antonv: ok 2015-11-13T00:53:17Z Cthulhux: even from the same folder (except for the version number) 2015-11-13T00:53:18Z antonv: makes sense to report this to SBCL 2015-11-13T00:53:27Z Cthulhux: yup, i'm currently writing a mail. 2015-11-13T00:53:50Z Cthulhux: CCL does not support ceramic and SBCL does not start. :< i go to cobol!!11 2015-11-13T00:53:54Z Cthulhux covers 2015-11-13T00:54:06Z leafyba__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T00:55:03Z antonv: what is ceramic? 2015-11-13T00:55:14Z Cthulhux: ceramic.github.io 2015-11-13T00:55:19Z Cthulhux: basically, electron for lisp 2015-11-13T00:55:33Z Cthulhux: i wrote an application and just need this to pack it :) 2015-11-13T00:55:47Z Cthulhux: (yes, i filed the bug reports for ccl, yes, they are in the process of being worked on) 2015-11-13T00:56:27Z antonv: ah, yes, I know this 2015-11-13T00:56:59Z antonv: what prevents it to work on CCL? 2015-11-13T00:57:17Z Cthulhux: somehow, Xach's buildapp is statically linked to sbcl or something 2015-11-13T00:57:29Z Cthulhux: not entirely sure, i only understood half of the discussion 2015-11-13T00:57:30Z Cthulhux: ;-) 2015-11-13T00:58:07Z Cthulhux: so we're all waiting for Xach :> 2015-11-13T00:58:39Z Cthulhux: (and because i'm impatient, i'm trying to use sbcl again for now.) 2015-11-13T00:59:08Z antonv: yes, just use previous SBCL 2015-11-13T01:00:48Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:00:59Z antonv: Cthulhux: btw, I quickly glanced at the ceramic source, looks like buildapp is used only here: https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/blob/master/src/build.lisp 2015-11-13T01:01:21Z Cthulhux: antonv, https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/issues/18 ;) 2015-11-13T01:01:39Z antonv: if one rewirites this function without buildapp, just with native CCL functionality, this can probably be enough 2015-11-13T01:02:13Z antonv: Cthulhux, are you king crimson fan? 2015-11-13T01:02:22Z Cthulhux: well.. sort of. 2015-11-13T01:02:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:02:29Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T01:03:31Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:06:12Z antonv: so, the commit to buildapp 5 days ago, does it fix the problem? 2015-11-13T01:06:26Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:06:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:06:52Z Cthulhux: hmm.. is it upstream yet? 2015-11-13T01:07:29Z antonv: don't know, I just see it in the issue you referenced 2015-11-13T01:08:25Z Cthulhux: i just saw it the first time. 2015-11-13T01:08:29Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-13T01:08:39Z antonv: probably it's not the final solution 2015-11-13T01:08:39Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:08:54Z Cthulhux: let me try.. 2015-11-13T01:09:11Z antonv: the commit comment says "applies to ceramic#18" 2015-11-13T01:09:19Z antonv: not fixes it completely 2015-11-13T01:09:26Z Cthulhux types (ql:quickload :ceramic) and waits... 2015-11-13T01:10:07Z Cthulhux: nope 2015-11-13T01:10:11Z Cthulhux: same old error 2015-11-13T01:10:16Z Cthulhux: obviously not in QL yet 2015-11-13T01:10:34Z antonv: you can just git clone buildapp 2015-11-13T01:11:08Z Cthulhux: into the known packages? 2015-11-13T01:11:33Z antonv: what do you mean? 2015-11-13T01:11:40Z antonv: what is known packages? 2015-11-13T01:12:04Z Cthulhux: can i overwrite ql's buildapp locally with the one from git? 2015-11-13T01:12:19Z antonv: clone into any directory, then do (pushnew "C:/path/to/buildapp/" asdf:*central-registry* :test #'equal) 2015-11-13T01:12:31Z antonv: and then (ql:quickload :your-application) 2015-11-13T01:12:51Z antonv: or, just to test buildapp, (ql:quickload :buildapp) 2015-11-13T01:13:21Z antonv: and ql will yuse the buildapp from the location you specified 2015-11-13T01:13:56Z Cthulhux: ah. 2015-11-13T01:14:00Z Cthulhux: never did that :) 2015-11-13T01:14:13Z antonv: I do all the time 2015-11-13T01:14:34Z antonv: Not for libraries, but for my applications 2015-11-13T01:15:12Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:15:30Z antonv: I do include path to the app I am working on to asdf:*central-registry*, then (ql:quickload :myapp) and quicklisp loads my application from local folder, and loads all the dependencies automatically 2015-11-13T01:15:58Z Cthulhux: ha 2015-11-13T01:16:06Z Cthulhux: with the patch, buildapp works 2015-11-13T01:16:21Z antonv: cool! 2015-11-13T01:16:22Z Cthulhux: ceramic still fails because osicat cant find gcc (wth) 2015-11-13T01:16:28Z Cthulhux: but buildapp works :D 2015-11-13T01:16:31Z antonv: :( 2015-11-13T01:16:44Z antonv: works - do you mean it can be loaded? 2015-11-13T01:16:51Z antonv: or does it really create executables? 2015-11-13T01:16:55Z Cthulhux: at least it loads, yes. 2015-11-13T01:17:06Z Cthulhux: (ql:quickload :buildapp) runs through 2015-11-13T01:17:37Z Cthulhux: now i'll have to find out where i can find a windows ccl compatible gcc... :-) 2015-11-13T01:18:23Z antonv: Did ceramic work for you with elder SBCL? 2015-11-13T01:18:48Z le4fy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:19:02Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:19:04Z Cthulhux: i have not tried ... :-) well, i had on osx, that was a different error 2015-11-13T01:19:17Z antonv: ah 2015-11-13T01:19:27Z Cthulhux: i found ceramic after i found ccl. 2015-11-13T01:19:31Z antonv: btw, about loading custom versions of libraries with quicklisp 2015-11-13T01:19:39Z blubjr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:19:45Z antonv: you can also clone the library into quicklisp/local-projects 2015-11-13T01:20:12Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T01:20:13Z antonv: quicklisp then finds the lib automatically, no need to register it in the asdf:*central-registry* 2015-11-13T01:20:32Z Cthulhux: oh. 2015-11-13T01:20:35Z antonv: it's just an alternative way 2015-11-13T01:21:09Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:21:18Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:21:25Z antonv: GCC for windows exists, but why exactly GCC 2015-11-13T01:21:33Z antonv: I mean, what is the eroor? 2015-11-13T01:21:33Z Cthulhux: i have no clue 2015-11-13T01:21:46Z Cthulhux: > Error: External process exited with code 2. 2015-11-13T01:21:46Z Cthulhux: > Command was: "gcc" "-m64" "-IC:/Users/hp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cffi_0.16.1/" "-o" "C:/Users/hp/AppData/Local/common-lisp/cache/ccl-1.10-f96-win-x64/C/Users/hp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/osicat-20150709-git/posix/basic-unixint.exe" "C:/Users/hp/AppData/Local/common-lisp/cache/ccl-1.10-f96-win-x64/C/Users/hp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/osicat-20150709-git/posix/basic-unixint.c" 2015-11-13T01:21:54Z antonv: it's CFFI 2015-11-13T01:21:54Z Cthulhux: seems like osicat wants gcc :) 2015-11-13T01:22:02Z Cthulhux: oh? 2015-11-13T01:22:36Z Cthulhux: the error appears in the osicat-posix step 2015-11-13T01:22:37Z Cthulhux: :/ 2015-11-13T01:22:56Z antonv: I mean osicat uses CFFI 2015-11-13T01:23:28Z Cthulhux: maybe. what does it need from me? 2015-11-13T01:23:35Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:23:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:25:09Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:25:21Z antonv: you are correct, C compiler is needed. I just clarify how that happens 2015-11-13T01:27:26Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:27:43Z antonv: as for installing C compiler, mingw provides GCC for windows 2015-11-13T01:28:10Z antonv: probably CFFI can be configured to use another C compiler, like microsoft Visual C 2015-11-13T01:29:42Z antonv: I never did that 2015-11-13T01:29:42Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T01:29:51Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:30:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:30:08Z Cthulhux: i probably shouldnt even try. 2015-11-13T01:30:15Z Cthulhux installs cygwin :/ 2015-11-13T01:30:53Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T01:31:09Z antonv: with cygwin you might have inconveniences in that cygwin doesn't understand native windows paths 2015-11-13T01:31:51Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:33:12Z antonv: it uses a mapping, instead of C:\somedir\ under cygwin you use /cygdrive/c/somedir 2015-11-13T01:33:49Z Cthulhux: haha 2015-11-13T01:33:56Z Cthulhux: with cygwin i get a stack exception 2015-11-13T01:34:43Z abaugher quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-13T01:35:03Z antonv: Cthulhux: makes sense to google about cffi-grovel on windows 2015-11-13T01:35:07Z Cthulhux: http://i.imgur.com/HeecHHJ.png 2015-11-13T01:35:13Z Cthulhux goes crying :| 2015-11-13T01:35:20Z Cthulhux: that's demoticating 2015-11-13T01:35:21Z Cthulhux: *v 2015-11-13T01:35:50Z antonv: wow! 2015-11-13T01:36:10Z antonv: Cthulhux: btw, to give you more info, why C compiler is needed 2015-11-13T01:36:19Z antonv: it's used by CFFI-Grovel 2015-11-13T01:36:29Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:36:36Z antonv: osican wants to call foreign functions 2015-11-13T01:36:51Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:36:52Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:37:21Z antonv: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#The-Groveller 2015-11-13T01:38:41Z antonv: As the C functions osicat wants to call may have different declarations of different platforms, CFF grovel employs a C compiler to generate correct lisp specifications for foreign functions 2015-11-13T01:38:56Z Cthulhux: seems like it can't. 2015-11-13T01:39:04Z antonv: yes 2015-11-13T01:39:38Z antonv: If you will decide to follow this path further, makes sense to google "cffi-grovel windows" and see how people handle it 2015-11-13T01:39:56Z antonv: and don't forget to share you results, once you successfully build ceramic app for windows :) 2015-11-13T01:40:07Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:40:44Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:42:47Z Cthulhux: i'll give it another try with mingw.. 2015-11-13T01:42:54Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:47:04Z erjoalgo: is there a push-append? 2015-11-13T01:47:15Z erjoalgo: macro? 2015-11-13T01:47:46Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T01:48:34Z Xach: no. 2015-11-13T01:49:26Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:50:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:51:02Z Cthulhux: \l/ 2015-11-13T01:51:09Z Cthulhux: here's the mingw result: http://i.imgur.com/lfwkq5K.png 2015-11-13T01:51:15Z Cthulhux: seriously. i just give up. 2015-11-13T01:51:15Z Cthulhux: :< 2015-11-13T01:51:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T01:51:49Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T01:52:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:52:57Z antonv: Cthulhux: just out of curiosity, were you doing a clean build? 2015-11-13T01:53:18Z antonv: I don't understand exactly why the error happened, but mabe removing stale files was needed 2015-11-13T01:53:18Z Cthulhux: antonv, no, i continued the cygwin one. 2015-11-13T01:53:56Z antonv: I mean remove C:/Users/hp/AppData/Local/common-lisp/cache/ccl-1.10... 2015-11-13T01:54:29Z antonv: this is the directory where ASDF places output files 2015-11-13T01:54:49Z antonv: cleaning it helps sometimes 2015-11-13T01:55:12Z antonv: [and starting fresh lisp process, i case you work from slime] 2015-11-13T01:55:23Z antonv: iN case 2015-11-13T01:55:58Z Cthulhux: hm 2015-11-13T01:56:04Z antonv: I mean in case you work in a long running lisp session, slime or repl 2015-11-13T01:56:09Z Cthulhux: http://i.imgur.com/sgULGe6.png 2015-11-13T01:56:10Z Cthulhux: ༼ノಠل͟ಠ༽ノ-︵-┻━┻ 2015-11-13T01:56:20Z antonv: ha! 2015-11-13T01:56:41Z antonv: \o/ 2015-11-13T01:56:52Z Cthulhux grew around 30 years older in the past 30 minutes 2015-11-13T01:57:28Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T01:57:30Z antonv: how did you draw this image? 2015-11-13T01:57:32Z Cthulhux: so, well, Xach, your fix works 2015-11-13T01:57:39Z Cthulhux: *cough* 2015-11-13T01:57:50Z Cthulhux: unicode :) 2015-11-13T01:57:56Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-13T01:57:59Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T01:58:08Z Xach: Cthulhux: glad to hear it 2015-11-13T01:58:10Z Cthulhux: also, it's a meme. 2015-11-13T01:58:11Z Cthulhux: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/flipping-tables-%E2%95%AF%E2%96%A1%EF%BC%89%E2%95%AF%EF%B8%B5-%E2%94%BB%E2%94%81%E2%94%BB 2015-11-13T01:58:18Z Xach wishes he could finish his broader buildapp fixes 2015-11-13T01:58:29Z Cthulhux: need someone to test, Xach? :D 2015-11-13T01:58:40Z Xach: Testing isn't the problem, it's finding time to write it 2015-11-13T01:58:48Z Cthulhux: oh. 2015-11-13T01:58:52Z antonv: Cthulhux: but we don't know it works yet, it only loaded 2015-11-13T01:59:09Z Cthulhux: i haven't filed a "doesnt work" bug yet 2015-11-13T01:59:11Z antonv: I am affraid of further problems when you actually try to build an app 2015-11-13T01:59:14Z Cthulhux: only two "doesnt load" 2015-11-13T01:59:14Z Cthulhux: :D 2015-11-13T01:59:19Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T01:59:21Z antonv: ok 2015-11-13T01:59:54Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:00:04Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:00:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:00:30Z Cthulhux tries the demo app of ceramic first.. 2015-11-13T02:01:30Z Cthulhux: http://i.imgur.com/pmPl8yV.png 2015-11-13T02:01:32Z Cthulhux: yup. 2015-11-13T02:01:37Z Cthulhux heads to the bugtracker. 2015-11-13T02:01:46Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:02:32Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-13T02:02:38Z antonv: Cthulhux: wait 2015-11-13T02:02:58Z Cthulhux: that's the same issue as my OSX bug 2015-11-13T02:03:00Z Cthulhux: https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/issues/19 2015-11-13T02:03:01Z antonv: makes sense to get the backtrace first 2015-11-13T02:03:04Z antonv: ah 2015-11-13T02:03:10Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:03:13Z Cthulhux: time to update a ticket ) 2015-11-13T02:03:21Z Cthulhux: or, better, copy it 2015-11-13T02:03:39Z Cthulhux: that's another "no, we only support sbcl" error, it seems... 2015-11-13T02:03:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:05:11Z Cthulhux: my sbcl bug report waits for moderator approval 2015-11-13T02:05:16Z Cthulhux sighs 2015-11-13T02:05:39Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T02:05:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T02:06:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:06:05Z antonv: happens with me sometimes too (not necessary on SBLC) 2015-11-13T02:06:20Z Cthulhux: probably wouldn't happen with sbcl at all^^ 2015-11-13T02:06:47Z Cthulhux: eudoxia said he'd eventually replace the buildapp stack by something different, not sure how far that is 2015-11-13T02:06:56Z Cthulhux: but i'm closer to finally making a binary off my nice web application \o/ thanks antonv. 2015-11-13T02:07:16Z antonv: no problem 2015-11-13T02:07:25Z Cthulhux: "no problem" is a plain lie :p 2015-11-13T02:07:54Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:08:11Z antonv: :) 2015-11-13T02:08:59Z loke: Who is the maintainer of cl-ppcre now? 2015-11-13T02:09:18Z Cthulhux: not edi anymore? 2015-11-13T02:10:10Z loke: Cthulhux: I don't know. He did hand over maintenance of other projects to other people. 2015-11-13T02:10:33Z antonv: Cthulhux: another note about ceramic/electron 2015-11-13T02:10:37Z loke: I would like to add Unicode character class support to it, but I need to know if there is a maintainer willing to merge such a fix. 2015-11-13T02:10:56Z Cthulhux: that's the problem with projects outside github/bitbucket.. 2015-11-13T02:11:31Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:11:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T02:11:40Z antonv: Cthulhux: it could probably be easier to just cut-off unnecessary parts 2015-11-13T02:11:58Z antonv: ceramic installs build automatically, then uses buildapp 2015-11-13T02:12:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:12:14Z antonv: but the goal is to make and executable out of CCL image 2015-11-13T02:12:44Z antonv: It could be done just using CCL's function, without the portability layer 2015-11-13T02:12:56Z antonv: electon exists, CCL exists 2015-11-13T02:13:07Z Cthulhux: the goal is to have an as-obfuscated-as-possible executable binary from a web-based application 2015-11-13T02:13:21Z antonv: ceramic is some wrapper, probably it's easier to wrap you program with electron manually 2015-11-13T02:13:31Z antonv: no relying on ceramic 2015-11-13T02:13:43Z Cthulhux: i never worked with electron itself 2015-11-13T02:14:10Z antonv: I gues ceramic is jsut a convenience utility, but in the current shape on windows it become inconvenience 2015-11-13T02:14:21Z Cthulhux: oh, i did once but it required me to use node.js 2015-11-13T02:14:24Z Cthulhux: node.js is ugly :/ 2015-11-13T02:14:46Z Cthulhux: ha, so is cl-cffi-gtk :) 2015-11-13T02:14:53Z antonv: I am reading https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/tree/master/src/electron 2015-11-13T02:14:59Z Cthulhux: windows is not a good environment for lisp.. 2015-11-13T02:15:01Z antonv: "tools.lisp is a set of tools to download and extract Electron binaries." 2015-11-13T02:15:07Z antonv: you can download binaries yourself 2015-11-13T02:15:48Z antonv: I don't know exactly how Elector works and how much glue is necessary between you app and electron 2015-11-13T02:16:22Z Cthulhux: welllll... 2015-11-13T02:16:24Z antonv: but probably it could be easier to not use parts of the ceramics which don't work for you 2015-11-13T02:16:31Z antonv: or don't use ceramic at all 2015-11-13T02:16:36Z Cthulhux: electron requires me to use node.js instead of CL for packaging my application 2015-11-13T02:16:37Z Cthulhux: https://github.com/atom/electron/blob/master/docs/tutorial/quick-start.md 2015-11-13T02:16:38Z Cthulhux: :| 2015-11-13T02:16:45Z Cthulhux: i'm not too happy with that :/ 2015-11-13T02:17:06Z antonv: But that would require some experience understanding lisp libs internals and solving related problems 2015-11-13T02:17:51Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:17:51Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:18:01Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T02:18:43Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:19:18Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:19:19Z antonv: Cthulhux: for example, the last erro you had happens in ceramic.setup::setup 2015-11-13T02:19:38Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:19:45Z antonv: it calls (install-buildapp) and fails 2015-11-13T02:20:04Z antonv: I would just try to comment out ;; (install-buildapp) 2015-11-13T02:20:31Z antonv: then (ceramic.electron:setup) 2015-11-13T02:20:42Z antonv: what does it do? downloads something from internet? 2015-11-13T02:20:48Z Raimondi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T02:20:51Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:20:52Z antonv: If that doesn't work, comment out and download manually 2015-11-13T02:21:27Z antonv: And so on 2015-11-13T02:21:28Z theos joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:21:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:21:59Z antonv: OK 2015-11-13T02:22:07Z antonv: good night 2015-11-13T02:22:11Z Cthulhux: 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connection) 2015-11-13T02:55:38Z White_Flame: a bit vector would presumably use vector operations 2015-11-13T02:56:30Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:56:41Z drmeister: But is there a function to shift a bitvector - I never wrote one, so I think no. 2015-11-13T02:57:02Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T02:57:26Z White_Flame: subseq? 2015-11-13T02:57:43Z White_Flame: at least for shifting right 2015-11-13T02:58:24Z White_Flame: concatenate zeros to shift left 2015-11-13T02:58:34Z White_Flame: sounds expensive, though :) 2015-11-13T02:58:39Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T02:59:31Z White_Flame: though you never know what's been optimized 2015-11-13T03:02:21Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-13T03:03:49Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:03:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:08:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-13T03:08:59Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:09:30Z lisse joined #lisp 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T03:11:04Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:11:12Z drmeister: I see - I get the feeling that bitvectors are meant for logical operations but not really for shifting. 2015-11-13T03:11:27Z drmeister: It's ok, I'll use integers, they can be arbitrary size and I can shift them with ASH 2015-11-13T03:11:35Z drmeister: Thanks for the feedback 2015-11-13T03:15:09Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-13T03:17:32Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T03:18:19Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:20:13Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:20:26Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:21:32Z loke: Hello drmeister 2015-11-13T03:22:12Z drmeister: Hi loke - did you have a chance to try and build clasp for 3.7? 2015-11-13T03:23:34Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-13T03:24:07Z loke: drmeister: Yes. I tried. 2015-11-13T03:24:21Z loke: Still got an error where some header file had been moved to IR/ 2015-11-13T03:24:32Z loke: but it was trying to include it from the old location 2015-11-13T03:25:07Z loke: Hang on. Building again 2015-11-13T03:25:19Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T03:25:30Z drmeister: I have to find my external drive for my laptop - my internal ssd can't support another VM 2015-11-13T03:26:06Z loke: In file included from ../../src/asttooling/clangTooling.cc:62: 2015-11-13T03:26:07Z loke: ../../include/clasp/llvmo/llvmoExpose.h:49:10: fatal error: 'llvm/PassManager.h' file not found 2015-11-13T03:26:07Z loke: #include 2015-11-13T03:26:12Z loke: that's the error 2015-11-13T03:27:33Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:28:06Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T03:31:53Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-13T03:32:47Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:34:30Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T03:34:51Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:36:39Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T03:43:16Z drmeister: Ugh - I thought that was one that I fixed. 2015-11-13T03:44:18Z drmeister: I can see that I haven't really focused enough on 3.7 to fix this. I've been putting a lot of energy into getting out the next release of Clasp 0.4 2015-11-13T03:44:30Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T03:44:52Z drmeister: I'll take a look at 3.7 on the weekend. It's the coming thing - it's just that I don't have an LLVM 3.7 installation at the moment. 2015-11-13T03:45:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:47:48Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T03:47:50Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:48:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T03:50:51Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T03:51:57Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:52:19Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:56:18Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-13T03:56:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-13T03:59:19Z loke: Hello beachbuy 2015-11-13T03:59:21Z loke: beachbo6y 2015-11-13T03:59:23Z loke: beachboy 2015-11-13T03:59:39Z beach: I can feel the good vibrations here. 2015-11-13T03:59:44Z loke: Is this you? http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/6399236f-c683-43fc-8335-4f5fea737ad0/0b57142a-b747-4804-a8cb-6c0d227616ab.jpg 2015-11-13T04:00:40Z beach: Right on! 2015-11-13T04:01:37Z ozihcs: hi beach, ihtfp! 2015-11-13T04:04:19Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:04:46Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:04:51Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T04:05:15Z faheem__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-13T04:05:46Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:06:36Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:07:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:09:10Z beach: Yesterday I have a talk about LispOS the way I imagine it, based on http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf but without mentioning the word Lisp. 2015-11-13T04:09:32Z loke: beach: what language did you mention then? 2015-11-13T04:09:37Z loke: PHPos! 2015-11-13T04:09:56Z beach: I didn't mention the name of any language other than Swedish and English. 2015-11-13T04:10:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:10:15Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-13T04:10:31Z pillton: How did the talk go? 2015-11-13T04:10:39Z beach: Quite well in fact. 2015-11-13T04:10:46Z beach: They were very pleased with it. 2015-11-13T04:10:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:10:57Z beach: There were around 30 people in the audience. 2015-11-13T04:12:26Z loke: beach: to whom did you speak? 2015-11-13T04:12:36Z beach: HiQ in Gothenburg. 2015-11-13T04:12:43Z loke: Aha 2015-11-13T04:12:52Z loke: I had friends working for that company once 2015-11-13T04:13:00Z beach: I see. 2015-11-13T04:13:05Z loke: I wonder if Christer is still there 2015-11-13T04:13:38Z beach: I mentioned that the system would be based on how a dynamic programming language works, saying how such a language works, but without giving a name. 2015-11-13T04:14:27Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T04:14:45Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:15:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:16:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:16:34Z loke: beach: Any particular reasons you didn't mention Lisp? 2015-11-13T04:17:34Z beach: It tends to alienate some people. And there was no particular reason to bring it up here. The people in the audience go other indirect hints that I am working in Lisp. 2015-11-13T04:21:40Z beach: s/go/got/ 2015-11-13T04:23:17Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T04:23:59Z gilez_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:24:55Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:25:24Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:26:31Z pillton: Is there an IRC channel for SLIME? 2015-11-13T04:27:15Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-13T04:31:43Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T04:31:59Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-13T04:32:06Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:35:56Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:36:26Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:41:02Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:41:34Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T04:41:46Z loke: pillton: Yes. This one, isn't it? :-) 2015-11-13T04:42:06Z loke: Alienate? That's sad. 2015-11-13T04:42:51Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-13T04:45:29Z pillton: I wasn't trying to alienate. 2015-11-13T04:45:43Z beach: pillton: He is talking about my remark. 2015-11-13T04:46:20Z pillton: I am looking for a way to change the way swank::arglist handles specific operators. 2015-11-13T04:47:17Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:47:18Z pillton: I have come up with a dodgy way. I can move on. 2015-11-13T04:48:55Z pillton: beach: Ah. Opps. 2015-11-13T04:49:35Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:49:45Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:52:55Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:53:01Z nikki93 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-13T04:53:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T04:58:21Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T04:59:05Z theos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T05:05:26Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:06:18Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T05:09:19Z pillton: The mop defines ensure-class and ensure-generic-function. It doesn't have ensure-method. 2015-11-13T05:09:43Z pillton: Anyone know why? 2015-11-13T05:10:18Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-13T05:10:34Z beach: SICL CLOS has it. :) 2015-11-13T05:10:42Z Bike: because it has the madness that is make-method-lambda instead, i think 2015-11-13T05:11:57Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-13T05:12:50Z Gevurah joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:12:55Z Gevurah: Hello 2015-11-13T05:13:39Z Gevurah: So, I just started learning common lisp (my first programming language) 2015-11-13T05:14:17Z Gevurah: I'm reading David Touretzky's Gentle Introduction 2015-11-13T05:14:44Z Gevurah: I haven't gotten very far - I've just dipped my toes into EVAL 2015-11-13T05:15:10Z Gevurah: But I've learned about CAR/CDR, cons cells, defun, etc. 2015-11-13T05:15:29Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:16:00Z Gevurah: It just feels like... a passive learning experience. I know the book was designed for instructors and I kind of feel like I have classroom notes minus the instructor. 2015-11-13T05:16:06Z Gevurah: Am I approaching it wrong? 2015-11-13T05:16:17Z Gevurah: Maybe I just don't know -how- to learn programming 2015-11-13T05:16:24Z Bike: are you writing programs? 2015-11-13T05:16:28Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T05:16:50Z Gevurah: I'm nowhere near that point 2015-11-13T05:17:07Z Gevurah: I know how to create a function that calculates averages! 2015-11-13T05:17:10Z Gevurah: that's about it 2015-11-13T05:17:12Z Bike: that's a program. 2015-11-13T05:17:21Z Gevurah: Right 2015-11-13T05:17:25Z Bike: just write. that's how you avoid passitivity. 2015-11-13T05:17:39Z Gevurah: Are you familiar with the book? 2015-11-13T05:17:46Z Gevurah: (that is great advice - agreed) 2015-11-13T05:17:59Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T05:18:31Z Bike: not very. 2015-11-13T05:18:52Z loke: Gevurah: if you already know programming (other languages) I'd recommend ,,pcl instead. 2015-11-13T05:18:55Z loke: PCL 2015-11-13T05:19:03Z Bike: "my first programming language" 2015-11-13T05:19:26Z loke: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-11-13T05:19:31Z Gevurah: Well, the first two chapters (maybe 70 pages) are dedicated entirely to learning the eccentricities of Lisp 2015-11-13T05:20:02Z Gevurah: loke: as Bike said, this is my very first programming language learning attempt 2015-11-13T05:20:07Z Gevurah: I do not know other languages 2015-11-13T05:20:16Z loke: Gevurah: Oh, I see. 2015-11-13T05:20:27Z loke: Gevurah: What is it that you want to achieve then? 2015-11-13T05:20:31Z Gevurah: Bike: For example, memorizing CAR/CDR 2015-11-13T05:21:06Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:21:07Z Gevurah: loke: I'm trying to find a learning experience that suites me. Rote learning is difficult for me. 2015-11-13T05:21:12Z Bike: if it's your first time programming the main thing is nothing to do with the actual operators, it's cutting out a lot of your thought. 2015-11-13T05:21:25Z Gevurah: Bike: ? 2015-11-13T05:21:29Z loke: Gevurah: The way I always learned (and still do) is to experiment. 2015-11-13T05:21:45Z Bike: like, when you learn arithmetic, you have to learn that when someone asks you how many apples you have if you have two apples and receive three more, you don't eat an apple in between. 2015-11-13T05:22:00Z loke: Start with a small case (possibly from a book) and then expand on it. Try out things. Check the book if I've understood things right. 2015-11-13T05:22:07Z Bike: it's a restricted domain in a way that is hard to think about without training. programming does similar things. 2015-11-13T05:22:26Z Gevurah: thank you. 2015-11-13T05:23:07Z Bike: so a lot of what you're doing is going to be about getting you to think in this broken way, even if it doesn't explicitly say so. 2015-11-13T05:23:50Z Gevurah: If I asked you to tell me the CAADDR of (((apple orange banana plum)) (tart)))) would you have to reference anything? 2015-11-13T05:24:13Z Gevurah: Bike: that's what it feels like! 2015-11-13T05:24:31Z Bike: no, but i'd have to think about it for a while. i think it's nil? 2015-11-13T05:24:32Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-13T05:25:16Z Bike: yes. nailed it 2015-11-13T05:25:17Z Gevurah: I don't know. But that's my point - he dedicates a large number of pages to teaching you how to memorize these rules 2015-11-13T05:25:23Z Gevurah: nice! 2015-11-13T05:25:46Z Gevurah: And he doesn't explain why he's teaching you how to do this 2015-11-13T05:25:49Z Bike: i know it's boring. i have the same problem in my college classes that do have instructors. 2015-11-13T05:26:06Z pillton: Gevurah: Things like CAADDR aren't really relevant. You only need to know CAR and CDR. Nobody writes CAADDR any more. 2015-11-13T05:26:16Z Bike: that is a discouraging thing to say. 2015-11-13T05:26:23Z Gevurah: I guess overcoming the boredom associated with learning "primitive concepts" is my problem. or one of them 2015-11-13T05:26:31Z Bike: well, i'd think of it like i said. you have to look at CAADDR and not think of Slovenian etymology, you have to think car of car of cdr of cdr 2015-11-13T05:26:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:26:56Z Bike: actually more directly he's most certainly trying to explain list structure. 2015-11-13T05:27:01Z Bike: cons structure. whatever. 2015-11-13T05:27:07Z Gevurah: pillton: then why does David Touretzky tell us to learn how to get the 4th of something using CAR/CDR? Isn't he respected? 2015-11-13T05:27:34Z Gevurah: Bike: he is 2015-11-13T05:27:43Z pillton: I'm not trying to be discouraging. The only thing you need to learn is how conses work. 2015-11-13T05:28:23Z pillton: Things like CAADDR and friends just obfuscate a really simple idea. 2015-11-13T05:28:49Z Bike: i don't think it's obfuscation 2015-11-13T05:28:57Z Gevurah: pillton: he did a great job of explaning conses using box notation. I understand cons cells and how symbols and lists are joined together using them and pointers point to elements inside cons structures. 2015-11-13T05:29:03Z Bike: just shorthand for car of car of cdr of cdr, which is the kind of t hing you'd naturally bring up with cons structures 2015-11-13T05:29:30Z loke: Anyone ever used CDAADR? :-) 2015-11-13T05:29:32Z Bike: i mean, don't memorize beyond car and cdr, obviously 2015-11-13T05:29:45Z pillton: Bike: That is what I am trying to say. 2015-11-13T05:29:51Z Bike: mm 2015-11-13T05:29:52Z Gevurah: Bike: maybe if I understood why finding the car of car of cdr of cdr in a real world example I'd feel more encouraged haha 2015-11-13T05:29:58Z Bike: (cr adddaddadadadda ...) 2015-11-13T05:30:28Z Bike: Gevurah: well, the basic point is it's deep graph traversal 2015-11-13T05:30:33Z Bike: can you think of an example for that? 2015-11-13T05:30:56Z Gevurah: Bike: the most obvious would be choosing the correct symbol from a list of symbols 2015-11-13T05:31:04Z pillton: Gevurah: You won't use it in the real world. You will use CAR and CDR though. 2015-11-13T05:31:07Z Bike: say you're at a fork in the road, and each road thereafter has another fork; you have a destination and you know you can get there by going left at the first fork, left at the second, etc... 2015-11-13T05:31:30Z Bike: in a Real World Program this might not be a cons structure, but you still need to understand this depth, and this pathing 2015-11-13T05:31:30Z Gevurah: Bike: right 2015-11-13T05:32:05Z Gevurah: Bike: but why would picking the fourth of something or the fifth from the REST of something be important? 2015-11-13T05:32:19Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T05:32:20Z White_Flame: in a Real World Program using cons cells, there'd be things like (get-name (get-user 'bob) *list-of-names*) 2015-11-13T05:32:25Z Gevurah: Bike: why not refer to it explicitly? 2015-11-13T05:32:28Z Gevurah: White_Flame: exactly! 2015-11-13T05:32:34Z Bike: what, like the fifth element of a list? 2015-11-13T05:32:39Z White_Flame: where get-name might simple by CAR, and get-user might be ASSOC 2015-11-13T05:33:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-13T05:33:07Z White_Flame: or get-name might be CADDR, referencing a field in a list 2015-11-13T05:33:12Z Gevurah: Bike: yes. maybe my imagination is lacking but why would you need to drill down in that way ? 2015-11-13T05:33:24Z White_Flame: but these long c[a|d]+r names aren't in common use 2015-11-13T05:33:36Z Bike: you can't think of why you would want the fifth element of a list? 2015-11-13T05:34:05Z White_Flame: (fifth '(a b c d e f g)) -> E :-P 2015-11-13T05:34:28Z Gevurah: Bike: Why not use fifth? Why bother with CAR/CDR? 2015-11-13T05:34:36Z Bike: Oh. no, you'd definitely use fifth. 2015-11-13T05:34:54Z Bike: but it's good to know that fifth is caddddr underneath. 2015-11-13T05:35:09Z Gevurah: Bike: I see. 2015-11-13T05:35:19Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:35:34Z Gevurah: well, I'm sleep deprived and my wife is yelling at me 2015-11-13T05:35:38Z Gevurah: thanks everyone 2015-11-13T05:35:41Z loke: Bike: Except of course that CL doesn't have caddddr :-) 2015-11-13T05:35:44Z Gevurah quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-13T05:35:56Z Bike: yes, yes 2015-11-13T05:36:54Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-13T05:41:45Z pillton: Gevurah: People learn in different ways. People teach in different ways. Some things are said in order to prepare you for the big picture. CAADDR is one of those things that reaffirm the big picture i.e. conses and their prevalence. 2015-11-13T05:42:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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However the error I got was no dispatch function for #? in a use of cl-interpol at an earlier point in the file 2015-11-13T07:08:03Z skeledrew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-13T07:09:22Z kyfho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T07:09:42Z Shinmera: That's.. uh. Hm. 2015-11-13T07:10:04Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T07:10:45Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T07:11:01Z jasom: It appears to be slime specific 2015-11-13T07:11:14Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+3EYC <-- C-c C-k fails with that odd error on this file 2015-11-13T07:11:24Z jasom: (assuming cl-interpol is loaded already) 2015-11-13T07:11:28Z Shinmera: Ah-- well, that might explain it. 2015-11-13T07:12:29Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T07:13:11Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T07:13:16Z Shinmera: I was trying to figure out how that could happen in a compile-file case. 2015-11-13T07:14:11Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T07:15:08Z Shinmera: I guess slime might be sending additional commands to try and figure out the #? 2015-11-13T07:15:23Z Shinmera: I honestly have no idea how slime tries to handle reader macros (if at all) though, so. 2015-11-13T07:15:26Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T07:15:32Z kami joined #lisp 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drmeister: (let ((bits (make-array 8 :element-type 'bit :initial-contents #*11001010))) (print bits) (replace bits bits :start2 1) (print bits) (replace bits bits :start1 2) bits) #| #*11001010 #*10010100 --> #*10100101 |# 2015-11-13T10:03:41Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:04:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:04:03Z pjb: It's incredible the number of people who have problems with inheritance… 2015-11-13T10:04:11Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T10:04:23Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-13T10:04:29Z phoe_krk: inheritance: everyone's problem. by definition. 2015-11-13T10:04:58Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T10:05:46Z madmalik joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:07:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:07:20Z phoe_krk: I'm fiddling around with print-object. 2015-11-13T10:07:30Z phoe_krk: What is the #1= I'm seeing at times? 2015-11-13T10:07:37Z phoe_krk: Along with #1#? 2015-11-13T10:08:45Z Shinmera: circular reference. 2015-11-13T10:08:51Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: this sounds like a problem on my side. 2015-11-13T10:08:52Z Shinmera: clhs #= 2015-11-13T10:08:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 2015-11-13T10:08:54Z phoe_krk: A big problem. 2015-11-13T10:08:57Z Shinmera: clhs ## 2015-11-13T10:08:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 2015-11-13T10:08:58Z phoe_krk: Thanks. 2015-11-13T10:11:11Z pjb: pillton: I have 70 occurences of c[ad][ad][ad]r and 73 of c[ad][ad][ad][ad]r in my sources. 2015-11-13T10:11:24Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:11:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T10:11:34Z pjb: (actually, lines, not occurences, there may be more occurences.) 2015-11-13T10:12:49Z Cymew: pjb: You don't belive in FIRST, SECOND and those friendly alternatives? 2015-11-13T10:13:20Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T10:13:37Z Shinmera: They may not be appropriate for trees, for example. 2015-11-13T10:13:56Z pjb: Cymew: sure, I use first second all the time, when I deal with lists. But c[ad]+r are for cons trees. 2015-11-13T10:14:17Z Cymew: Makes sense, I guess. 2015-11-13T10:14:33Z loke: I have 3 cases of c3r, and no c4r 2015-11-13T10:14:39Z pjb: spacebat: clisp existed long before sbcl. 2015-11-13T10:15:17Z loke: sorry. 4 of them. 3 cadar and 1 caddr 2015-11-13T10:16:34Z Shinmera: 8 and 1 for me. 2015-11-13T10:17:20Z phoe_krk: I usually only use them when defining accessors for various trees 2015-11-13T10:17:30Z phoe_krk: but again, my experience isn't the greatest yet. 2015-11-13T10:18:39Z Cymew: 0 and 0 for me, but I have no big projects as I mostly use CL for "scripting" puprposes or tools for unix admin tasks. 2015-11-13T10:18:53Z Shinmera has too many projects 2015-11-13T10:18:57Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:21:34Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:23:09Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:23:25Z kyfho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T10:25:09Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:27:15Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T10:29:15Z zacharias quit 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Xach: moredhel: what macroexpanded to that? 2015-11-13T12:53:08Z moredhel: macroexpand-1 2015-11-13T12:53:14Z Xach: moredhel: macroexpand-1 of what? 2015-11-13T12:53:21Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T12:53:29Z Xach: also, your defmacro form has no name 2015-11-13T12:54:10Z moredhel: (defmacro test (x) `(return ,x)) 2015-11-13T12:54:15Z moredhel: that's the proper definition 2015-11-13T12:54:20Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-13T12:54:40Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T12:55:29Z Xach: moredhel: and what did you macroexpand-1? 2015-11-13T12:56:12Z moredhel: (macroexpand-1 '(test tmp)) 2015-11-13T12:56:17Z moredhel: (RETURN TMP) 2015-11-13T12:56:38Z moredhel: Expected: (RETURN "thing") 2015-11-13T12:56:45Z Xach: moredhel: desired, maybe. 2015-11-13T12:56:50Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-11-13T12:56:53Z Xach: what you get is what you should expect. 2015-11-13T12:57:04Z Xach: you could get what you desire with `(return ,(symbol-value x)) 2015-11-13T12:57:52Z mtl_: only if x has a value at macro-expansion time 2015-11-13T12:58:06Z moredhel: aah, that works perfectly, and if I wanted to handle both symbols and strings, I could throw in an if statement with symbolp 2015-11-13T12:58:19Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T12:58:52Z moredhel: mtl_ yeah, it will. I'm using it to define routes in caveman, where I want the same url in html & for routes. 2015-11-13T13:00:04Z moredhel: success! thank you kind folk :) 2015-11-13T13:02:46Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T13:03:50Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-13T13:06:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-13T13:06:40Z White_Flame: macros get passed in source code, not evaluated values 2015-11-13T13:06:48Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-13T13:06:54Z White_Flame: it's not usually a good idea to try to read the values of variables at compile-time 2015-11-13T13:07:49Z White_Flame: since in (return
) the form is evaluated, (return tmp) will probably do what you want, returning the string "thing" 2015-11-13T13:08:30Z White_Flame: (test tmp) means "expand the macro given the source code symbol TMP", not the value of TMP, hence the symbol-value workaround above 2015-11-13T13:11:40Z perpetuum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T13:13:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-13T13:15:49Z pjb: The workaround is wrong 99.99% of the time. 2015-11-13T13:16:44Z pjb: tmp is not *tmp* for one thing. 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(unless you don't care about the values of course) 2015-11-13T15:17:40Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: I guess loop makes things like COLLECT available 2015-11-13T15:17:53Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:18:05Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: yeah, and erjoalgo asked about looping. I'm ok with Shinmera answer :) I'm curious about warweasle's 2015-11-13T15:18:30Z White_Flame: oh, read the wrong name :) 2015-11-13T15:18:42Z oGMo: jackdaniel: easier to remember? heh 2015-11-13T15:20:30Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:23:31Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2015-11-13T15:23:58Z Walex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T15:24:26Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T15:25:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-13T15:27:35Z warweasle_afk: jackdaniel: I'm not really sure. I can just remember it better. 2015-11-13T15:28:12Z wooden__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T15:29:45Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:30:38Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-13T15:31:25Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:32:21Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:33:14Z jackdaniel: uhm 2015-11-13T15:33:41Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:34:26Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-13T15:34:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T15:37:32Z mjs quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-13T15:41:45Z erjoalgo: does (declare (special var)) not work accross labels? 2015-11-13T15:42:46Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T15:47:43Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T15:47:51Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-13T15:47:56Z atgreen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T15:49:31Z Xach: erjoalgo: a declaration in one function of a LABELS applies only to that function. is that what you mean, or something else? 2015-11-13T15:50:38Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T15:50:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:52:04Z erjoalgo: nevermind, sorry, it does work, was having a bug. 2015-11-13T15:53:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:53:47Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T15:54:07Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-13T15:56:52Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T15:58:12Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T15:59:35Z synchromesh: Xach: Hi, I'm trying to write a Clack backend Clack (for Google App Engine); I'd just like to load the Clack project and its immediate dependencies, but Quicklisp pulls in (and starts up!) Hunchentoot. Is there a way to tell Quicklisp "don't load these dependencies, thanks"? 2015-11-13T15:59:43Z truecoldmind: Is usocket library still actual or there is something new or better? 2015-11-13T15:59:53Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:00:16Z Xach: synchromesh: is hunchentoot a dependency of clack? 2015-11-13T16:00:21Z Xach: truecoldmind: it is still actual 2015-11-13T16:00:48Z truecoldmind: Xach: thanks 2015-11-13T16:01:36Z synchromesh: Xach: I believe so - I think the Clack package clack.handler.hunchentoot is pulling it in. But that package is just one of the Clack backends - there's also Toot and Wookie, and they're not pulled in AFAICT. 2015-11-13T16:02:17Z Xach: synchromesh: is clack.handler.hunchentoot a dependency of clack? 2015-11-13T16:03:05Z synchromesh: Xach: It's a package within Clack. I don't think it's a separate project/dependency as such. 2015-11-13T16:03:33Z synchromesh: I haven't interrogated the Quicklisp project for Clack as such, I'm just looking at the source on GitHub. 2015-11-13T16:04:07Z synchromesh: Perhaps I should start digging into the Quicklisp internals - is there documentation on that I should be reading? 2015-11-13T16:04:07Z Xach: synchromesh: well, quicklisp just loads stuff. if something is happening (like hunchentoot starting), it is because some code that was loaded does it. 2015-11-13T16:04:32Z Xach: If quicklisp is pulling in something, it is because it is a dependency. 2015-11-13T16:04:54Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:05:53Z Xach: synchromesh: what quicklisp command ends up with hunchentoot starting? 2015-11-13T16:05:59Z Xach: (ql:quickload "clack") or something? 2015-11-13T16:06:22Z synchromesh: Righto. In my mind I'm thinking in terms of "emerge" or "apt-get" or other package management systems I've used, where you can ask what the system thinks the dependencies are, which can be what the package maintainer had in mind, rather than the package author... :) 2015-11-13T16:06:52Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:08:01Z Xach: synchromesh: when i quickload "clack", it does not load hunchentoot 2015-11-13T16:08:23Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T16:09:09Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T16:09:41Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:10:11Z synchromesh: Well, (ql:quickload "clack") doesn't start Hunchentoot, but (ql:quickload "forumfeedme") with the ASDF file that says (asdf:defsystem ... :depends-on (:gabacle)) where Gabale is my library that does depend on Clack, does start Hunchentoot. But (ql:quickload "gabacle") doesn't start Hunchentoot either. 2015-11-13T16:10:51Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-13T16:10:53Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-13T16:11:35Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T16:11:37Z synchromesh: Xach: Ah... this is where the lightbulb comes on. :) Sorry, I think it's all working as intended and my understanding of what's happening has finally caught up. Sorry for the noise... 2015-11-13T16:11:44Z Xach: no problem 2015-11-13T16:12:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:15:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T16:15:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:15:41Z synchromesh: Xach: Yes, other package managers I've used aren't invoked at runtime by the software they've installed to load further dependencies as needed. 2015-11-13T16:16:04Z erjoalgo: slime doesn't give me any way to narrow down where is a problem past a given function. i can always add print statements but i've always found not being able to get this info annoying (eg Python or others give a line number). how do people deal with this in general? 2015-11-13T16:16:06Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T16:16:25Z Xach: erjoalgo: when i need that, I compile with high debug, and it drills down to an individual form. 2015-11-13T16:16:44Z Xach: erjoalgo: in slime, you can recompile with high debug by using C-u C-c C-c (for a single function) or C-u C-c C-k (for the whole file) 2015-11-13T16:17:01Z erjoalgo: I did (proclaim '(optimize debug)) but still get just function-level. oh, ok,I'll try that 2015-11-13T16:17:07Z Xach: then the frames with high debug show up in green in sldb, and "v" on the frame jumps directly to the right place. 2015-11-13T16:17:22Z Xach: it does not seem to work 100% of the time, but it has worked when i need it 2015-11-13T16:18:03Z erjoalgo: awesome! 2015-11-13T16:18:10Z Xach: did it work for you just now? 2015-11-13T16:18:13Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-13T16:18:15Z erjoalgo: i clearly need to look deeper into slime 2015-11-13T16:18:39Z erjoalgo: i get a nice flashing yellow background where the problematic form is 2015-11-13T16:18:46Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:19:27Z Xach: beauty 2015-11-13T16:20:15Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T16:21:16Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:25:03Z br0kenman quit (Quit: x) 2015-11-13T16:25:28Z le4fy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T16:26:31Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T16:34:22Z harish__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T16:34:48Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:39:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:41:50Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:42:11Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T16:42:29Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:42:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T16:43:03Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:44:46Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:47:39Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:49:09Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:49:44Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-13T16:50:06Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:51:03Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T16:51:08Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T16:51:19Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:51:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:51:51Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:52:54Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-13T16:53:29Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:55:07Z snv: got banned at #lispgames for saying "had I been your employer, you would have been fired for chatting at IRC, instead of doing the chores." 2015-11-13T16:56:00Z snv: moral: never hire lispers, they are a waste to company's budget. 2015-11-13T16:57:28Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-13T16:58:11Z Shinmera: Cool story bro, stay salty. 2015-11-13T16:58:53Z attila_lendvai: moral: don't be judgmental regarding how people spend their own free time? 2015-11-13T16:58:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T16:59:19Z DeadTrickster: why would you say that anyway? 2015-11-13T16:59:48Z mordocai: snv was always saying things that some people might find offensive. I didn't mind, but that was far from the first comment. 2015-11-13T16:59:54Z warweasle_afk: DeadTrickster: Don't feed the troll. He was kicked for calling someone the N-word. 2015-11-13T17:00:10Z mordocai: warweasle_afk: didn't know about that, stopping the feeding 2015-11-13T17:00:10Z snv: Shinmera, I have proofs: http://imgur.com/yI0P0mv 2015-11-13T17:00:17Z Shinmera: I don't give a fuck 2015-11-13T17:00:21Z DeadTrickster: warweasle_afk, maybe he is not from USA 2015-11-13T17:00:34Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-13T17:00:38Z snv: mordocai, I'm saying truth and people hate me because I'm smarter than them. 2015-11-13T17:00:44Z mordocai: snv: Lol, sure 2015-11-13T17:00:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-13T17:01:19Z tajjada: go now 2015-11-13T17:01:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:01:44Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:01:52Z DeadTrickster: cool, so many new nicknames 2015-11-13T17:02:13Z DeadTrickster: I seen only Shinmera and attila_lendvai before 2015-11-13T17:02:22Z snv: warweasle_afk, somebody who play games and chats during worktime is a lazy nigger, unless he gets paid for testing irc software. Deal with it. 2015-11-13T17:02:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-11-13T17:02:31Z Xach has set mode +b *!*Adium@195.9.173.* 2015-11-13T17:02:34Z snv [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (snv) 2015-11-13T17:02:36Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-11-13T17:02:37Z DeadTrickster: yep Xach from USA 2015-11-13T17:03:24Z DeadTrickster: USA people should stop projecting their past on others ;-) but this is extremely offtopic 2015-11-13T17:03:41Z Xach: I am deeply offended that someone would consider themselves smarter than me. 2015-11-13T17:03:51Z DeadTrickster: I know 2015-11-13T17:03:55Z Shinmera: The CL mafia reigns supreme once more. 2015-11-13T17:04:36Z DeadTrickster: that guy should tweet this 2015-11-13T17:06:02Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:06:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T17:07:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:07:40Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T17:09:26Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T17:10:02Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Hopefully he will not return. 2015-11-13T17:17:30Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-13T17:17:33Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:17:39Z Xach: Similar for #lisp. 2015-11-13T17:18:17Z PuercoPop: it was the same on #lispcafe 2015-11-13T17:18:26Z jasom: sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling 2015-11-13T17:21:43Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:21:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-13T17:22:07Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:23:49Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-11-13T17:24:27Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2015-11-13T17:24:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T17:26:13Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:27:17Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:29:36Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:31:02Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:33:53Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T17:57:58Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:58:30Z helpmeobi1 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T17:58:48Z helpmeobi1: zomg the java world seems very inefficient from linux admin job 2015-11-13T17:58:56Z helpmeobi1: lisp must be better 2015-11-13T17:59:09Z helpmeobi1: todays struggle is with something called jenkins 2015-11-13T17:59:11Z helpmeobi1: bleh 2015-11-13T17:59:30Z dwrngr: lmao 2015-11-13T18:00:50Z akkad: ignore goes a long ways 2015-11-13T18:01:07Z helpmeobi1: :( 2015-11-13T18:01:10Z akkad: the jenkins can be managed with leeroy.lisp 2015-11-13T18:01:40Z zwdr: I heard of the perverse ways of clojure 2015-11-13T18:01:53Z akkad: the key is to automate the provision of the xml on the backend and prevent people from changing the front end. 2015-11-13T18:02:00Z zwdr: they claim it is a lisp--but who knows? 2015-11-13T18:02:15Z helpmeobi1: jvm=oracle=evil 2015-11-13T18:02:21Z akkad: if you want to manage jenkins from lisp, let me know, boss may let me opensource it 2015-11-13T18:02:21Z helpmeobi1: and boring 2015-11-13T18:02:25Z helpmeobi1: lol 2015-11-13T18:02:59Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T18:03:25Z zz_m joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:03:26Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:05:19Z dwchandler: akkad: I would find that helpful (jenkins from lisp) 2015-11-13T18:06:00Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-13T18:07:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:13:05Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T18:14:33Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:15:45Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:18:01Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T18:19:38Z fantazo: why does clojure stink? 2015-11-13T18:20:05Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:22:28Z phoe_krk: []{} 2015-11-13T18:23:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:29:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:32:06Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-13T18:33:06Z erjoalgo: is there an equivalent of emacs lsip (intern-soft) or obarrays in CL? i need to intern some strings in order to mix them with symbols in an eq hashtable. but it does't make sense to intern them into a package. in emacs lisp i could i can create a "disposable" package and intern the strings there. i tried uninterned symbols but they do not test eq 2015-11-13T18:33:39Z dlowe: erjoalgo: you can still make a disposable package in CL 2015-11-13T18:33:59Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:34:11Z Shinmera: But they have to be named, so.. it's not that great. 2015-11-13T18:35:26Z Shinmera: erjoalgo: Is there a particular reason that the hash table has to be EQ? 2015-11-13T18:35:42Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T18:36:21Z erjoalgo: 99% of its keys are symbols, but i have a couple of strings that need to be keys as well 2015-11-13T18:36:34Z erjoalgo: i guess i can try (make-package (gensym)) 2015-11-13T18:36:42Z dlowe: erjoalgo: EQUAL works on symbols and strings alike 2015-11-13T18:37:08Z Shinmera: dlowe: But they won't be seen as the same. 2015-11-13T18:37:20Z dlowe: Shinmera: I think that's what erjoalgo wants? 2015-11-13T18:37:27Z Shinmera: I'm confused about that part to be honest. 2015-11-13T18:37:55Z erjoalgo: i don't have symbols whose names are identical to the strings. I guess, yeah, I could use equal 2015-11-13T18:38:13Z erjoalgo: for some reason I wanted to "keep it fast" 2015-11-13T18:38:15Z dlowe: I have to admit, anonymous packages could be pretty cool 2015-11-13T18:38:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:38:26Z dlowe: probably not even that hard to implement 2015-11-13T18:38:59Z Shinmera: I don't know, there's the question of the reader. 2015-11-13T18:39:15Z Shinmera: But, it would be neat. I remember wanting it before. 2015-11-13T18:39:19Z paul0` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:39:22Z dlowe: yeah, you could only put default symbols in there from the reader 2015-11-13T18:39:45Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:39:47Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:41:04Z helpmeobi1: abstraction! 2015-11-13T18:41:12Z helpmeobi1: make me have just a few levers! 2015-11-13T18:42:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:42:56Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T18:44:33Z darlinger joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:46:47Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:48:05Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T18:52:02Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:56:46Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T18:57:58Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-13T18:59:06Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:01:48Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:07:20Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-13T19:07:47Z jfe: having a discussion with my manager today about why using c/c++ for every problem will ensure our competitors leave us in the dust. wish me luck. 2015-11-13T19:09:07Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:10:01Z mordocai: jfe: We ended up just showing management that at my last job by writing something in ruby that was previously in C and getting it done in less than half the time with a bunch of fixed bugs and new features 2015-11-13T19:10:20Z mordocai: This was "higher up" management though, not our direct manager. Direct manager was on board 2015-11-13T19:11:34Z jfe: mordocai: that's a good idea. i need to keep my eye out for opportunities like that. 2015-11-13T19:11:54Z jasom: now that different people are awake, does anyone know how to deal with this issue? Try C-c C-k in slime with cl-interpol loaded: http://paste.lisp.org/+3EYC 2015-11-13T19:12:47Z jfe: i know i won't be able to sell lisp to a 5000+-employee company, but i'm hoping i can push for python or ruby. i know the former better than the latter, but i wouldn't mind using either one. 2015-11-13T19:12:54Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T19:13:11Z dlowe: jasom: those macros aren't loaded during load-time 2015-11-13T19:13:25Z jasom: dlowe: they're in an eval-when 2015-11-13T19:13:27Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-13T19:13:31Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T19:13:49Z dlowe: not in your paste 2015-11-13T19:13:51Z jfe: my company does a lot of embedded c/c++, though, and i've heard ruby is heinous write c/c++ bindings for. 2015-11-13T19:13:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:14:04Z jasom: dlowe: the enable-syntax is a macro that expands to an eval-when 2015-11-13T19:14:17Z jasom: dlowe: it works as expected with (load (compile-file ...)) at a repl 2015-11-13T19:14:18Z dlowe: jasom: yes, but macroexpand time is *after* load-time 2015-11-13T19:14:28Z oGMo: jfe: not really, even using the API isn't bad, but most people just use FFI now iirc 2015-11-13T19:14:53Z jasom: C++ bindings are heinous in general 2015-11-13T19:15:01Z jfe: jasom: amen. 2015-11-13T19:15:08Z dlowe: jasom: at least try it :p (eval-when (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute) ...) 2015-11-13T19:15:13Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:15:14Z jasom: dlowe: okay 2015-11-13T19:16:36Z jasom: dlowe: no change 2015-11-13T19:16:49Z dlowe: okay, I was wrong and don't have any better ideas. 2015-11-13T19:17:13Z jasom: dlowe: anyway C-c C-k compiles before loading, and macros *are* expanded at compile time 2015-11-13T19:17:16Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T19:18:10Z jasom: dlowe: what happens is the compile phase signals a condition that slime catches and then slime tries to read the file to handle it 2015-11-13T19:18:23Z jasom: since we haven't loaded the file yet, the reader-macros are not in effect 2015-11-13T19:18:43Z jasom: I know you can do crazy things to slime by putting a header in comments at the top of the file and was wondering if you could modify the read-table there 2015-11-13T19:22:19Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:23:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T19:24:01Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:26:32Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-13T19:28:08Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T20:09:17Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-13T20:10:10Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:10:17Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:11:50Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-13T20:12:36Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:13:13Z helpmeobi1: if lisp is better, why isnt lisp used more? 2015-11-13T20:13:16Z helpmeobi1: whats the deal? 2015-11-13T20:13:28Z helpmeobi1: everything is easier in lisp mostly? 2015-11-13T20:15:06Z Shinmera: Colleen: wrong 2015-11-13T20:15:06Z Colleen: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html 2015-11-13T20:16:59Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:17:26Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:17:31Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:17:57Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:21:13Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-13T20:23:45Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:26:40Z rme joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:26:50Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:28:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-13T20:31:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:31:49Z Wojciech_K quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T20:33:58Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:38:56Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:39:02Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T20:42:51Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T20:43:53Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:44:55Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T20:48:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-13T20:48:25Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-13T20:49:41Z helpmeobi1: what a depressing read 2015-11-13T20:49:45Z helpmeobi1: colleen: 2015-11-13T20:49:55Z helpmeobi1: Colleen: 2015-11-13T20:50:26Z navls quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-11-13T20:51:29Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:51:32Z matthewhill joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:51:33Z matthewhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:51:55Z matthewhill joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:51:56Z matthewhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:52:04Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:52:15Z matthewhill joined #lisp 2015-11-13T20:52:17Z matthewhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T20:57:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-13T20:58:42Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-13T20:59:50Z spyrosoft quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-13T20:59:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:01:16Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-13T21:08:34Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T21:08:45Z ajf- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T21:09:18Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:09:42Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-13T21:11:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:12:51Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:13:04Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-13T21:19:00Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:27:58Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:30:10Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-13T21:31:25Z jfe: well, that didn't go very well. 2015-11-13T21:33:35Z jfe: head of software didn't receive the idea that we should use higher-level languages when possible with much enthusiasm. asked me to write a white paper and present it to our technical steering committee. 2015-11-13T21:35:04Z jfe: problem is, i'm going to present this to a bunch of old-timer embedded guys who think function pointers are as high as computing goes, conceptually. how can make these people understand why something is so great without having them experience it for themselves? 2015-11-13T21:35:35Z jfe: s/can/can i/ 2015-11-13T21:36:37Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T21:36:56Z Xach: that's a tough trick in all areas of life 2015-11-13T21:37:44Z jfe: "my father programming in FORTRAN and he never needed those fancy closure thingies you rave about, so why should you?" 2015-11-13T21:37:56Z jfe: s/programming/programmed/ 2015-11-13T21:38:15Z dlowe: jfe: make sure to point out that some high level languages can compile to tight low-level assembly 2015-11-13T21:38:30Z oGMo: jfe: you probably can't, but at least try to present something _they_ would think neat, not necessarily things _you_ think are neat 2015-11-13T21:40:00Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:40:23Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T21:40:24Z blackwolf: perhaps incremental introduction: do a proof-of-concept in parallel, or a few examples. no way to change the course of a battleship 90 degrees, have to push things gradually. or ... accept that things won't change and drink heavlily. I tend to opt for the latter. 2015-11-13T21:42:00Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:42:50Z helpmeobi1: java seems like such hell 2015-11-13T21:42:57Z helpmeobi1: I dont know why people use it 2015-11-13T21:43:17Z dlowe: Tooling makes up for a lot of its deficiencies 2015-11-13T21:43:29Z dlowe: takes a long time to learn the tooling, though 2015-11-13T21:43:43Z dlowe: and it's pretty miserable 2015-11-13T21:44:19Z attila_lendvai: jfe: I usually point out that all of these languages are turing complete, so everything is "possible" in all of them, yet there are differences in efficiency of the *programmer*, and the programmer *team*. more done with less work (eventually, after the learning period). 2015-11-13T21:47:32Z guaqua: java has many things going for it. it's sort of predictable. it's also bad in predictable ways. some things include so much magic because otherwise it would be such misery (like configuration in frameworks like spring) 2015-11-13T21:47:45Z guaqua: and debugging these is a major pain in the ass 2015-11-13T21:48:06Z dlowe: honestly, it's a decent language. The horror is what the java community has done with it. 2015-11-13T21:48:26Z guaqua: but then again, shipping a relatively self-contained application is quite easy. it's not too hard to write performant code in it 2015-11-13T21:48:30Z guaqua: and so on 2015-11-13T21:48:38Z guaqua: dlowe: definitely. it's not the language or the runtime 2015-11-13T21:48:51Z crichter joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:49:05Z guaqua: lot of the complexity is in these enterprisey approaches 2015-11-13T21:49:17Z guaqua: they offer a lot, but they also add so much complexity 2015-11-13T21:49:37Z dlowe: shrug. anyway. Lisp is a better thing overall. 2015-11-13T21:49:55Z dlowe: If only it had billions of dollars shoving it down everyone's throats 2015-11-13T21:50:05Z blackwolf: dlowe: additional horror is the ``java everywhere'' mentality. $WORKPLACE uses it for low-latency market data systems because ``java programmers are easy to hire''. 2015-11-13T21:50:25Z phf: blackwolf: but java programmers ~are~ easy to hire 2015-11-13T21:50:40Z blackwolf: they are ... but they're generally idiots. :) 2015-11-13T21:50:54Z guaqua: well...as idiots as the common programmer is 2015-11-13T21:51:02Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:51:09Z phf: blackwolf: and yet you're working there ;) 2015-11-13T21:51:20Z spyrosoft quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-13T21:51:50Z blackwolf: phf: nah, I'm a C/C++ programmer ... they changed languages after I was hired. 2015-11-13T21:52:12Z dlowe: When workplaces say "easy to hire" what they really mean is "easy to fire" 2015-11-13T21:53:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T21:53:51Z blackwolf: my problem with commodity java programmers is that they have no curiosity: they learned java as a primary language in school, never looked at anything else. ask them about lisp/erlang/haskell ... even C/C++, and they act like you're speaking in latin 2015-11-13T21:54:13Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:54:29Z White_Flame: it's also a filter for "I should code for a stable career" instead of "I code because I love it" 2015-11-13T21:55:01Z userm joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:55:02Z dlowe: I don't think less of such people. 2015-11-13T21:55:04Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-13T21:55:17Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T21:55:23Z guaqua: i don't mind the lack of interest in other languages. i do mind the lack of interest for operating systems, packaging systems, understanding of causes for latency, understanding of memory hierarchies, understanding of alternative concurrency models from threading/shared memory, understanding of unix scripting, understanding of command line use 2015-11-13T21:55:49Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T21:56:03Z White_Flame: guaqua: right. passion for programming will bring you to those concepts. doing it because it seems like jobs can be had, won't 2015-11-13T21:56:15Z White_Flame: in the vastly common case 2015-11-13T21:56:26Z guaqua: because the lack of knowledge in these things actually hurt you in your job immensely 2015-11-13T21:56:41Z White_Flame: well, that all depends on the scapegoating structure 2015-11-13T21:56:56Z White_Flame: if everybody's at that level, the person rocking the job gets hurt more 2015-11-13T21:57:00Z dlowe: I don't think they do if they stay in their comfort zone and have someone to bail them out. 2015-11-13T21:57:05Z White_Flame: ..rocking the boat 2015-11-13T21:57:15Z guaqua: well somebody has to figure these other things out, otherwise the projects don't ship succesfully 2015-11-13T21:57:24Z White_Flame: most projects aren't successful 2015-11-13T21:57:40Z guaqua: if no-one can create the installer for the software, you can't ship succesfully 2015-11-13T21:58:00Z helpmeobi1: lol 2015-11-13T21:58:06Z guaqua: if no-one understands why something is really slow, the product might never catch on or be able to compete on the market 2015-11-13T21:58:07Z dlowe: most projects are successful. They just aren't public or noticable 2015-11-13T21:58:10Z helpmeobi1: how baout just big text file of lisp code 2015-11-13T21:58:18Z helpmeobi1: and clisp -somewitch textfile 2015-11-13T21:58:26Z helpmeobi1: someswitch 2015-11-13T21:58:30Z helpmeobi1: boom loads up code 2015-11-13T21:59:07Z varjagg: i never met a decent java programmer who wasn't good with a few other languages 2015-11-13T21:59:17Z varjagg: not even sure i ever met a programmer who knew java only 2015-11-13T21:59:21Z varjagg: and i met many 2015-11-13T21:59:21Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T21:59:24Z phf: i see much bigger problem with people who are good (or imagine themselves good) and yet work for subpar companies. those are the enablers that prop up the status quo. every company i've been to had one or two people who'd support the whole thing, work long hours, put out fires created by incompetents and then dull themselves by drinking on weekends, all for meager pay. 2015-11-13T21:59:41Z userm: How feasible would it be to take SBCL and target it toward the Xen hypervisor so that it runs like "on the metal" like a unikernel? (e.g. MirageOS) 2015-11-13T22:00:08Z White_Flame: phf: some people like being big fish in a small pond 2015-11-13T22:00:16Z varjagg: as for turing equivalency, it's kinda pointless 2015-11-13T22:00:25Z varjagg: turing machine has infinite memory for starters 2015-11-13T22:00:36Z varjagg: there are practical nuances in programming beyond that 2015-11-13T22:00:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:01:31Z varjagg: i can honestly say that c is more useful skill in embedded world than command of common lisp 2015-11-13T22:01:56Z White_Flame: I use Lisp to generate complex 6502 code 2015-11-13T22:01:57Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T22:02:07Z White_Flame: you simply cant' manage complexity in a language like C 2015-11-13T22:02:16Z varjagg: you absolutely can 2015-11-13T22:02:26Z varjagg: it's more effort 2015-11-13T22:02:45Z White_Flame: you simply can't say it's worth it to manage complexity in a language like C, then ;) 2015-11-13T22:02:51Z varjagg: linux kernel is a massive c project, and very well written 2015-11-13T22:02:58Z White_Flame: (and yes, turing tarpit etc etc) 2015-11-13T22:04:04Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:04:06Z White_Flame: and how much would the kernel shrink, and how much easier would it be to have robustness in drivers with a higher level language? 2015-11-13T22:04:32Z varjagg: it would certainly shrink some 2015-11-13T22:04:33Z jfe: White_Flame: nice save :) 2015-11-13T22:04:40Z varjagg: robustness would increase, but not by much 2015-11-13T22:04:50Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-13T22:04:55Z White_Flame: robustness is due to lots and lots and lots of work 2015-11-13T22:05:02Z White_Flame: in the kernel in particular 2015-11-13T22:05:02Z varjagg: you'd still have to do memory and resource management for much of the code 2015-11-13T22:05:18Z dwchandler: meh. openbsd and netbsd kernels are better examples of well written C code 2015-11-13T22:05:58Z dwchandler: but anyway 2015-11-13T22:05:58Z White_Flame: anyway, C sucks, it's slow, its unmanageable, etc :) 2015-11-13T22:06:04Z helpmeobi1: lol 2015-11-13T22:06:05Z userm: You can't reach the moon, stacking chairs. Someone once said, I think. 2015-11-13T22:06:08Z varjagg: c is fine 2015-11-13T22:06:11Z varjagg: c++ sucks though 2015-11-13T22:06:14Z helpmeobi1: I wana get rich writing some lisp websites 2015-11-13T22:06:35Z johns` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:06:57Z White_Flame: I think CLIPS (the rule engine, not CLISP) is an interesting case study in how slow C can be if anything is dynamic 2015-11-13T22:07:00Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-13T22:07:25Z guaqua: varjagg: good programmers often know more than one language. and they learn quickly. my list was more about the not-so-good programmers and the true problems. trying to highlight that succesful projects are less about the single language, more about the culture and social structures 2015-11-13T22:08:10Z varjagg: White_Flame: well there's always the 10th rule 2015-11-13T22:08:15Z White_Flame: CLIPS does its fixed-pipeline work very, very fast. But once you put in any scripting or comparisons in, performance plummets, because in C all that stuff is static code dynamically testing runtime state 2015-11-13T22:08:16Z varjagg: and turing equivalency ;) 2015-11-13T22:08:42Z jfe: White_Flame: when you said you generate 6502 code, did you actually write a Lisp-to-binary compiler? 2015-11-13T22:08:55Z phf: a c machine is well suited for hosting a unix systems. doing common lisp on top of a c machine you still end up dealing with the c issues, even if you can insulate yourself from a lot of braindamage, but at the end of the day the only difference is how far down the stack you end up pushing your ffi. 2015-11-13T22:08:57Z White_Flame: and unless you start playing with LLVM or do ahead-of-time codegen, you're stick with stuff like that 2015-11-13T22:09:17Z White_Flame: jfe: No, using Lisp to declaratively define stuff about my program, and output asm & data spec files 2015-11-13T22:09:19Z varjagg: phf: not just that, cpus are made for c machiines 2015-11-13T22:09:32Z phf: varjagg: yes, that's what i meant 2015-11-13T22:09:58Z varjagg: ah 2015-11-13T22:11:01Z varjagg: White_Flame: i had situations when lisp code was faster than c solution 2015-11-13T22:11:11Z varjagg: but only in very specific, edge cases 2015-11-13T22:11:25Z jfe: i remember the last chapter of SICP showing a scheme-to-assembly compiler. i didn't thoroughly understand it, but i would like to. there's an article "lisping at JPL 2015-11-13T22:11:43Z White_Flame: varjagg: it's very often possible to have Lisp as fast as C. It's not easy to have C as fast as Lisp doing heavily dynamic systems 2015-11-13T22:11:45Z jfe: where the author talks about writing a compiler for a motorola chip on one of their spacecraft 2015-11-13T22:11:52Z varjagg: yeah by eran gatt i think 2015-11-13T22:11:53Z blackwolf: jfe: google `prescheme' 2015-11-13T22:12:47Z White_Flame: jfe: I do a ton of declarative programming and DSL work, so I don't really worry about compiling Lisp, but taking the concepts of what a program should do from custom specs & generating something good for whatever target 2015-11-13T22:13:15Z varjagg: jfe: he also had a write-up upon his return to jpl from google 2015-11-13T22:13:19Z varjagg: worth a read too 2015-11-13T22:14:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-13T22:15:41Z phf: jfe: you might want to read Lisp in Small Pieces, that goes through the process of implementing various execution strategies for scheme, including a scm->c and scm->virtualmachine. later can be adapted to x86 generation with some effort 2015-11-13T22:16:33Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:17:27Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T22:18:18Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:19:08Z phf: my "favorite" horrible hack is CLM (common lisp music) doing a compilation of a subset of loop macro into C, then dynamically loading resultant object file. i saw that trick also used in Goo language (sadly defunct), where eval generated c source code, called out to gcc, loaded the object file and then called the function in the object file. 2015-11-13T22:19:15Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T22:23:25Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T22:23:36Z phf: come to think of it naughty dog's GOAL language was common lisp hosted. it was used to generate playstation binaries, send them over the wire onto a development playstation console, and dynamically patch the functions in a running game. an ungodly sort of slime. 2015-11-13T22:25:26Z pjb: jfe: just explain them that not all programs are embedded drivers. 2015-11-13T22:27:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T22:27:21Z varjagg: there are also network stacks, memory pools and interrupt tables :p 2015-11-13T22:28:02Z varjagg: anyway if he really refers to fortran times, mention that lisp is the closest thing in the age 2015-11-13T22:30:08Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:30:22Z johns`: Is it possible to define a macro that expands into a sequence of symbols rather than list structure? 2015-11-13T22:30:30Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-13T22:30:52Z pjb: as long as the result is a valid form… 2015-11-13T22:31:14Z johns`: I'm trying to get to a macro that expands into a CLOS slot definition. 2015-11-13T22:31:20Z AeroNotix: oops 2015-11-13T22:31:32Z pjb: johns`: Nope, this is not a form. 2015-11-13T22:31:32Z White_Flame: johns`: if you mean (progn 1 2 (my-macro)) expanding to (progn 1 2 3 4 5), no 2015-11-13T22:31:37Z AeroNotix: typically trying to abstract over defclass is not a good idea 2015-11-13T22:31:44Z pjb: johns`: instead, expand to a defclass form. 2015-11-13T22:32:06Z johns`: Yeah, I think I tried to go down this path before, with no success. 2015-11-13T22:32:09Z pjb: But it can expand to (progn 1 2 #(3 4 5)) ie a sequence that is not a list is a vector. 2015-11-13T22:32:23Z pjb: johns`: there's no success to be had there. 2015-11-13T22:32:34Z johns`: Thank you for saving me more pain. 2015-11-13T22:32:40Z AeroNotix: johns`: what are you trying to abstract? 2015-11-13T22:32:50Z White_Flame: expanding to (progn 1 2 (progn 3 4 5)) would likely be the best approach, knowing nothing about your situation 2015-11-13T22:32:54Z AeroNotix: I always find that trying to abstract defclass just basically ends in me reimplementing defclass 2015-11-13T22:33:01Z johns`: I'm trying to have less repetition in my code. 2015-11-13T22:33:18Z AeroNotix: it's not worth it in the long run, just keep defclass definitions as long as they need to be 2015-11-13T22:33:21Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T22:33:35Z helpmeobi1: I wana use lisp to get stinking rich 2015-11-13T22:33:40Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-13T22:33:45Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T22:34:09Z johns`: Much appreciated, AeroNotix. 2015-11-13T22:34:42Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:35:19Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T22:35:56Z crichter: Say I have a list with NIL elements scattered here and there 2015-11-13T22:36:24Z pjb: You have a list with nil elements scattered here and there. 2015-11-13T22:36:25Z crichter: and I want to march thru the list, performing some fn, skipping the random NILs 2015-11-13T22:36:44Z pjb: (when element (do-something element)) 2015-11-13T22:36:58Z crichter: and the, when I reach the last closing paren, I want to exit the control structure. 2015-11-13T22:37:09Z pjb: There's no parentheses in lisp! 2015-11-13T22:37:26Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T22:37:30Z crichter: !!!! 2015-11-13T22:37:38Z AeroNotix: pass the bong dude 2015-11-13T22:37:50Z pjb: crichter: but you can do it functionnally: (defun skipping-nulls (fun) (lambda (x) (when x (funcall fun x)))) (mapc (skipping-nulls 'print) '(1 nil 2 nil 3)) 2015-11-13T22:38:11Z faheem__ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:38:38Z johns` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-13T22:38:39Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T22:39:39Z gilez_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T22:40:55Z johns` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:43:09Z crichter: ooo, ver nice 2015-11-13T22:45:59Z pjb: userm: some work toward that goal has been done a few years ago. There's an old sbcl branch somewhere. 2015-11-13T22:46:15Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-13T22:47:00Z userm: Thanks, I'll look for it 2015-11-13T22:47:28Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-13T22:48:49Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-13T22:49:52Z rme left #lisp 2015-11-13T22:51:10Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-13T22:53:09Z pjb: AeroNotix: just expand to a defclass form. 2015-11-13T22:59:56Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:01:46Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:02:33Z loke_` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:02:54Z loke_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T23:03:31Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-13T23:04:01Z helpmeobi1: so can complexity be contained way better in lisp such that 30 progrmas cna be mreged into 1? 2015-11-13T23:04:07Z helpmeobi1: with less code and mroe efficiency all rounad? 2015-11-13T23:04:45Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-13T23:08:36Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:13:02Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:13:50Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:17:04Z pjb: helpmeobi1: take a programm written in C or C++, translate it into CL. When I did that with my C++ libraries, I obtained 1/30 the source size. I heard other people claim the same ratio. What do you think? 2015-11-13T23:19:43Z helpmeobi1: 1/30 2015-11-13T23:19:45Z helpmeobi1: holy crap 2015-11-13T23:19:56Z helpmeobi1: NICE 2015-11-13T23:20:01Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:20:06Z helpmeobi1: does this mean it runs in 1/30th the space? 2015-11-13T23:20:16Z DeadTrickster_: everyone is alive here? 2015-11-13T23:20:27Z helpmeobi1: 1/30th the code to look at sounds nice 2015-11-13T23:23:50Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T23:25:11Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:25:31Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:27:51Z emaczen`: When I load a system with a file that contains (set-macro-character ...) Why will SBCL tell me "no dispatch function defined for ..." 2015-11-13T23:28:12Z emaczen`: My (set-macro-character ...) form appears above the form that uses the macro-character in the file as well. 2015-11-13T23:30:04Z phf: emaczen`: need to wrap it in eval-when, since the eval of set-macro-character will happen after the entire stream has been read, i.e. after lisp attempts to do something about the macro character that it encounters 2015-11-13T23:30:35Z emaczen`: phf: Ahhh thanks. 2015-11-13T23:31:55Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-13T23:33:20Z pjb: helpmeobi1: probably not, I would expect the generated code to be about the same size. But since we don't usually deploy lisp code as C code, it's harder to compare sizes. 2015-11-13T23:33:50Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-13T23:34:07Z pjb: emaczen`: or you can define your reader macros in a separate file and load it first. 2015-11-13T23:34:08Z helpmeobi1: hm 2015-11-13T23:35:17Z rocx joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:35:52Z pjb: But in the case of ecl, for example, libecl is about the same size as libc, and you can generate a hello word program with ecl that is about the same size as in C (12K or 16K on a 64-bit system). 2015-11-13T23:36:16Z helpmeobi1 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-13T23:36:28Z emaczen`: Can I make reader-macros only expand in certain packages? 2015-11-13T23:36:38Z pjb: emaczen`: nope. 2015-11-13T23:36:47Z pjb: But you can use named reader macros. 2015-11-13T23:37:33Z pjb: "Quit: Page closed" might be the most frightening message I see on irc. 2015-11-13T23:40:08Z rocx: Wow I feel moronic trying to wrangle cl-mustache. I can't even get nested context properly. 2015-11-13T23:40:33Z emaczen`: pjb: Yeah, can't I just change the readtable in particular packages? 2015-11-13T23:40:56Z Bike: no. readtables are unrelated to *package* 2015-11-13T23:41:04Z phf: emaczen`: the thinking that might help is that a readtable is a single unit of syntax, rather then "i have common lisp + some reader macros". so you can copy-readtable, add reader-macros to it, and then enable it on a per file basis. that's what named readtables do (though i prefer to manage it manually, i've had all kinds of issues with it) 2015-11-13T23:47:41Z johns` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-13T23:48:33Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-11-13T23:51:51Z lisse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T23:52:14Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:53:24Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-13T23:55:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-13T23:57:18Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-13T23:57:59Z emaczen`: phf: How do you enable it on a per-file basis? 2015-11-13T23:58:17Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:00:08Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T00:00:46Z erjoalgo: for some reason I wanted to "keep it fast" 2015-11-14T00:00:50Z erjoalgo: oops 2015-11-14T00:00:55Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:00:59Z erjoalgo: C-p meant in repl 2015-11-14T00:01:12Z erjoalgo: or M-p 2015-11-14T00:01:59Z erjoalgo: erc kind of looks like a slime buffer repl (offtopic) 2015-11-14T00:04:26Z soggybread joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:05:01Z erjoalgo: why does eval complain about unbound variable that is bound in the outer context 2015-11-14T00:05:27Z erjoalgo: (let ((a 5)) (eval 'a))==> variable is unbound 2015-11-14T00:05:30Z Xach: erjoalgo: eval is a function, so can see only globally defined variables, those with a symbol-value. 2015-11-14T00:05:47Z Xach: erjoalgo: it cannot see the value of lexical variables. 2015-11-14T00:06:38Z erjoalgo: can I define an anonymous macro, similar to named lambda (labels)? 2015-11-14T00:07:05Z erjoalgo: well, I guess named lambda isn't anonymous 2015-11-14T00:07:07Z Xach: I don't understand. How would you use it? 2015-11-14T00:07:55Z erjoalgo: i get either a stream or a file name. i have a form that does all the writing to a stream. but i want to use with-open-file 2015-11-14T00:08:07Z erjoalgo: and i don't want to repeat the stream-writing form 2015-11-14T00:08:49Z Xach: erjoalgo: one common approach is to write a function to do the stream work, then write a function that either passes the stream straight through and calls that function, or opens the file and calls that function 2015-11-14T00:08:59Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:09:07Z Xach: you can embed the former in the latter with flet or labels 2015-11-14T00:09:14Z Xach: or have it separate, too 2015-11-14T00:10:33Z erjoalgo: ok, yeah, I'm already using labels in this function anyway. 2015-11-14T00:10:54Z userm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:12:39Z pjb: erjoalgo: There's a trick to be able to eval lexical variables: (let ((a 5)) (eval `(let ((a ,a)) a))) 2015-11-14T00:13:38Z erjoalgo: (if fn (with-open-file (stream fn :direction :output 2015-11-14T00:13:38Z erjoalgo: :if-exists :supersede) 2015-11-14T00:13:38Z erjoalgo: (write-dot stream)) 2015-11-14T00:13:38Z erjoalgo: (write-dot stream)) 2015-11-14T00:14:22Z Xach: FN is not a good abbreviation for "FILENAME" 2015-11-14T00:14:24Z erjoalgo: looks a little redundant, but probably cleaner than other tricks 2015-11-14T00:16:10Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:16:23Z erjoalgo: you're right. but my fingers are lazy and prefer 'fn' 2015-11-14T00:17:01Z Xach: If you use emacs, you can teach it to turn "fn" into "filename" automatically. 2015-11-14T00:18:08Z Xach: i have not done anything like that. i mostly overuse M-/ 2015-11-14T00:21:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:24:48Z erjoalgo: i use a really old autocomplete emacs package that mostly works but i should probably upgrade to something better 2015-11-14T00:25:22Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:25:26Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:25:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:25:30Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:25:39Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:25:55Z pjb: erjoalgo: (defmacro with-variables ((&rest vars) &body body) `(list* 'let (list ,@(mapcar (lambda (var) `(list ',var ,var)) vars)) ',body)) (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (eval (with-variables (a b) (+ a b)))) #| --> 3 |# 2015-11-14T00:26:14Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-14T00:26:36Z cross joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:26:39Z pjb: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (with-variables (a b) (+ a b))) #| --> (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b)) |# 2015-11-14T00:26:46Z wtbrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:27:00Z pjb: Notice with-variables returns an expression, to be evaluated. 2015-11-14T00:28:08Z baboon` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:28:45Z pjb: erjoalgo: now, a good exercice would be to implement the free-variables algorithm, so that you may collect automatically the list of variables referenced by an expression, (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (with-free-variables (+ a b))) --> (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b)) 2015-11-14T00:29:08Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:29:35Z Nikotiin` is now known as Nikotiini 2015-11-14T00:29:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:30:03Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:30:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-14T00:31:07Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T00:33:46Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T00:37:51Z cagmz quit 2015-11-14T00:41:40Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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How can I split pathname to two strings from some token? I' 2015-11-14T01:28:47Z malice: I'm interested in second part*. 2015-11-14T01:29:28Z malice: So, e.g. I have #P"/home/user/dir/dir2/" and I want to split with "user", I'd get something like ("/home/" "user" "/dir/dir2/") 2015-11-14T01:29:39Z malice: I actually only care about the last item in the list... Is there some easy solution? 2015-11-14T01:32:32Z erjoalgo: well, this is not the proper way to do it, but 2015-11-14T01:32:41Z erjoalgo: (ppcre::register-groups-bind (last-item) (".*/(.+)/?$" "/home/user/dir/dir2/") 2015-11-14T01:32:41Z erjoalgo: last-item) 2015-11-14T01:32:58Z erjoalgo: "dir2/". but definitely let someone else answer 2015-11-14T01:34:53Z erjoalgo: @pjb thanks. that would probably be too confusing though, better to let the user specify the variables 2015-11-14T01:35:48Z erjoalgo: malice, you can also use ppcre split 2015-11-14T01:35:50Z johns` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T01:36:26Z erjoalgo: (ppcre::split "/" "/home/user/dir/dir2/")==> ("" "home" "user" "dir" "dir2") 2015-11-14T01:37:17Z malice: Well thanks, but split isn't what I'm looking for, as you can see. 2015-11-14T01:38:10Z johns`: Looking for a way to list the SLIME REPL history, but not finding anything. Is there a function for it? 2015-11-14T01:44:04Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-14T01:45:39Z erjoalgo: it seems to be saved in a file slime-repl-history-file 2015-11-14T01:45:49Z erjoalgo: which for me is "~/.slime-history.eld" 2015-11-14T01:46:01Z malice: erjoalgo: I kind of figured it out 2015-11-14T01:46:09Z malice: (cl-ppcre:split "user" (namestring #P"/home/user/dir/dir2/")) 2015-11-14T01:46:32Z malice: This is exactly what I was looking for. 2015-11-14T01:46:37Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T01:48:31Z pjb: malice: (let ((path #P"/home/user/dir/dir2/name.type")) (make-pathname :directory (cons :relative (cdr (member "user" (pathname-directory path) :test (function equal)))) :name (pathname-name path) :type (pathname-type path))) #| --> #P"dir/dir2/name.type" |# 2015-11-14T01:49:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-14T01:49:22Z erjoalgo: johns` it's also stored in slime-repl-input-history , but it's buffer-local 2015-11-14T01:49:44Z pjb: malice: (cl-ppcre:split "user" (namestring #P"/users/user/dir/dir2/")) #| --> ("/" "s/" "/dir/dir2/") |# 2015-11-14T01:49:44Z erjoalgo: malice, I'm not sure I would ever do that, pjb's suggestion is the way to go 2015-11-14T01:50:00Z erjoalgo: probably 2015-11-14T01:50:23Z malice: That's the best I could come up with, but pjb's right. 2015-11-14T01:51:20Z malice: Thank you, pjb! 2015-11-14T01:52:17Z malice: Mind if I ask the question on SO and answer it with your code, or do you want me to send you link for you to answer, pjb? 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I'm trying to wrap my head around an associative list for a Mustache template but it's like nesting doesn't do jack squat. 2015-11-14T03:15:30Z rocx: (mustache:render "
    {{#posts}}
  • {{title}}
  • {{/posts}}
" '((posts . ((title . "Hello") (title . "Goodbye"))))) just returns acts like "Hello" is the only one that exists. Wrangling cl-mustache, for the record. 2015-11-14T03:15:54Z rocx: What exactly am I doing wrong in my alist? 2015-11-14T03:16:36Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-14T03:18:57Z Bike: i don't know mustache, but one of the tests has the example call mustache:render* "{{#list}}{{item}}{{/list}}"'((list . (((item . "a"))((item . "b"))((item . "c")))))) 2015-11-14T03:19:28Z Bike: so maybe you just need to wrap each title entry in a list. 2015-11-14T03:19:32Z rocx smacks his forehead for not thinking of looking in the tests. 2015-11-14T03:20:44Z Bike: maybe that's so you can have multiple things in each list, i don't know. 2015-11-14T03:23:54Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:25:21Z anachrom1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-14T03:25:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T03:26:32Z moop joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:27:05Z nell joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:29:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T03:30:57Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:33:45Z rocx: Yeah. Think I found the trick in there. #( pretty much declares a vector, right? 2015-11-14T03:34:07Z gilez_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-14T03:35:38Z Xach for the first time notices the :index parameter to with-input-from-string 2015-11-14T03:37:48Z johns`: Thanks, erjoalgo. 2015-11-14T03:38:01Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T03:38:36Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:39:20Z cbd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:40:35Z cbd_: so I did (defparam blah blah) when I meant to say (defparameter blah blah) 2015-11-14T03:41:03Z cbd_: and I am in the debugger and I have the option to use-value or store-value 2015-11-14T03:41:17Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-14T03:41:22Z cbd_: I was wondering if there was a way to say "hey I meant 'defparameter'" 2015-11-14T03:41:27Z cbd_: And I am using clisp 2015-11-14T03:42:05Z Bike: it's probably interpreting 'defparam' as a function and asking for a value for the undefined variable "blah" in (defparam blah whatever). 2015-11-14T03:42:09Z Bike: so, probably not. 2015-11-14T03:43:45Z cbd_: I think it is complaining that defparam is _not_ a function 2015-11-14T03:43:48Z Bike: even if there was it wouldn't change your actual code. 2015-11-14T03:44:05Z Bike: it will probably complain about defparam not being a function as soon as it's done complaining that blah is not a variable. 2015-11-14T03:44:40Z cbd_: Well I mean the debugger is saying "EVAL: undefined function DEFPARAM" 2015-11-14T03:44:56Z Bike: And that's giving you store value restarts? 2015-11-14T03:45:30Z cbd_: I assume so, it is offering me the option to use some value instead of "(FDEFINITION 'DEFPARAM)" 2015-11-14T03:45:57Z Bike: well, that's just letting you put in a function, then. 2015-11-14T03:46:00Z cbd_: Which is exactly what I want to do, I just can't figure how to say "yes! use defparameter" 2015-11-14T03:46:06Z Bike: defparameter isn't a function. 2015-11-14T03:46:10Z cbd_: ah 2015-11-14T03:46:14Z Bike: so you're out of luck. just fix your code. 2015-11-14T03:46:26Z cbd_: *grumble* 2015-11-14T03:46:44Z Bike: again, even if you used a restart, the actual code text would not change. 2015-11-14T03:46:54Z jasom: (setf symbol-value) will likely be equivalent to defparameter 2015-11-14T03:47:27Z jasom: (if you're calling it as a function anyway so it's not a top-level form 2015-11-14T03:48:01Z csziacobus_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:48:16Z cbd_: Okay, thanks 2015-11-14T03:48:18Z jasom: oh, not quite, as a non-top-level defparameter still establishes it as a dynamic variable at runtime 2015-11-14T03:48:34Z jasom: but you'll confuse your compiler with non-top-level defparameters anyway 2015-11-14T03:48:51Z wuuz joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:49:52Z wuuz: trying to limit the precision when printing doubles 2015-11-14T03:50:15Z jasom: wuuz: it's easy with format, though I think you can also do it with special variables and print 2015-11-14T03:50:34Z wuuz: all I want is for the output to never include the scientific notation 2015-11-14T03:50:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:50:51Z Bike: i seem to remember that being slightly more of a pain. 2015-11-14T03:50:54Z jasom: clhs ~e 2015-11-14T03:50:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm 2015-11-14T03:51:06Z jasom: wuuz: look at that format specifier 2015-11-14T03:51:12Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:51:14Z Bike: if all your floats are doubles, i think you can just set *read-float-format* to 'double-float. 2015-11-14T03:51:14Z jasom: oops 2015-11-14T03:51:16Z jasom: clsh ~f 2015-11-14T03:51:20Z jasom: clhs ~f 2015-11-14T03:51:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm 2015-11-14T03:51:30Z jasom: I had e and f mixed up 2015-11-14T03:51:34Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:51:40Z Bike: *read-default-float-format* i mean. 2015-11-14T03:51:57Z wuuz: I don't want the exponent 2015-11-14T03:52:22Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:52:29Z jasom: wuuz: yeah sorry the second link 2015-11-14T03:52:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-14T03:52:56Z jasom: ~f will not use the exponent so long as it can do so with under 100 digits 2015-11-14T03:53:00Z wuuz: ~f says the implementation is free to print the exponent if the output would be too large or too small 2015-11-14T03:53:07Z jasom: and you can specify more if you use w and d 2015-11-14T03:53:40Z wuuz: right, in working my way through that, for example, ~,2 still results in the exponent being emitted for small values 2015-11-14T03:53:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T03:54:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-14T03:54:54Z wuuz: hmm,in specifying ~,2f it seems to produce what I want 2015-11-14T03:54:55Z jasom: ~100000f followed by string-trim should do what you want 2015-11-14T03:55:06Z wuuz: jasom: thank you 2015-11-14T03:55:07Z zz_m quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-14T03:55:30Z jasom: wuuz: ~,2f will pring exactly 2 digits after the decimal point, but may use exponential if it's more than 100 digits (which won't hapen for a single-float) 2015-11-14T03:55:53Z jasom: wuuz: no problem 2015-11-14T03:56:06Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T03:56:20Z wuuz: I guess the catch is, i might care about large values in the field, but not small values, and I guess it makes sense that I can't have both 2015-11-14T03:57:59Z wuuz: thanks 2015-11-14T04:02:24Z wuuz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:02:38Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:04:57Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:05:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:08:20Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-14T04:12:52Z johns` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:13:41Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Have to write some Scheme) 2015-11-14T04:17:55Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:17:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:18:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:19:26Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-14T04:20:19Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:20:42Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:21:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:21:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:22:27Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:22:46Z beach: Currently, I am using a splay tree to represent the buffer of Second Climacs. The problem with that is, that when a new buffer is created from a file, and presumably in other situations as well, the splay tree turns into a list, so it becomes very deep. 2015-11-14T04:22:49Z beach: I detect updates by a recursive traversal, so it blows the stack, at least in SBCL. Now I am wondering whether there might be a way to traverse the tree that balances it at the same time. 2015-11-14T04:23:29Z beach: If not, I might have to change to a tree that is always balanced. Splay trees are just statistically balanced. 2015-11-14T04:26:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-14T04:26:43Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-14T04:27:54Z csziacobus_ quit (Quit: csziacobus_) 2015-11-14T04:28:05Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:29:24Z beach: I think it can be done. By using a slight variation of the rules for balancing an AVL tree. 2015-11-14T04:34:38Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:35:29Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:35:33Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:35:49Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:40:08Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2015-11-14T04:40:19Z drmeister: Yes - hello 2015-11-14T04:40:47Z beach: drmeister: I would like to make a few changes to some Cleavir code in order to prepare for source tracking. 2015-11-14T04:41:01Z drmeister: Go ahead 2015-11-14T04:41:01Z beach: The problem is that I can't test it until a few days from now. 2015-11-14T04:41:19Z beach: So can I ask you not to pull until I say it's OK. 2015-11-14T04:41:20Z drmeister: I haven't downloaded sicl for several weeks. 2015-11-14T04:41:23Z drmeister: Sure 2015-11-14T04:41:27Z beach: Excellent. 2015-11-14T04:41:34Z beach: It will take a few days. 2015-11-14T04:41:39Z beach: I'll let you know. 2015-11-14T04:42:00Z drmeister: Once you tell me - would you be available for a few days to provide intellectual assistance to get things working again? 2015-11-14T04:42:23Z beach: Absolutely. That's the idea. 2015-11-14T04:42:42Z beach: There should be no radical changes at this point. Everything should be working as before. 2015-11-14T04:42:53Z beach: Modulo typos, and other stupid errors. 2015-11-14T04:43:29Z ASau`` is now known as ASau 2015-11-14T04:43:49Z beach: OK, thanks! 2015-11-14T04:43:54Z drmeister: No problem. 2015-11-14T04:47:39Z earl-ducaine: Is redefining the read table effectively undefined? 2015-11-14T04:47:41Z earl-ducaine: For example, in the expression (let ((*readtable* *my-readtable*)) (the-fn)) 2015-11-14T04:47:47Z earl-ducaine: even if we know that the-fn only uses *readtable* in a well defined way, is there any guarantee about how Lisp implementations use it. Pathologically: (defun car (l) (funcall (read-from-string "first") l)) 2015-11-14T04:48:54Z Bike: usually function descriptions list what they depend on in the user-fuckupable space. 2015-11-14T04:49:04Z Bike: clhs read-line 2015-11-14T04:49:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 2015-11-14T04:49:16Z Bike: 'affected by: *standard-input*, *terminal-io*' 2015-11-14T04:49:48Z Bike: and of course read has "*standard-input*, *terminal-io*, *readtable*, *read-default-float-format*, *read-base*, *read-suppress*, *package*, *read-eval*" 2015-11-14T04:50:18Z Bike: it may not be formally laid out but i think it's pretty clear that having car depend on readtable would be unreasonable. 2015-11-14T04:51:17Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:52:41Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:54:17Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:56:21Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T04:56:39Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-14T04:59:18Z earl-ducaine: Bike: So, as far as you know the specification doesn't make any promises about what *readtable* does or doesn't change in terms of Lisp built-ins, and is left to the the descresion of the programmer and 'reasonableness'. 2015-11-14T04:59:34Z earl-ducaine: I thought maybe I'd missed something in the spec. 2015-11-14T05:00:00Z Bike: the 'affected by's are important. 2015-11-14T05:01:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T05:01:21Z Bike: car is not listed as being affected by readtable. 2015-11-14T05:03:14Z Bike: but yes, there's some element of reasonableness, in that i think any programmer would expect car not be affected by the reader at all, and would complain to the implementor. 2015-11-14T05:17:47Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:17:47Z 2015-11-14T05:17:47Z names: ccl-logbot hitecnologys Fleurety zymurgy1 alexherbo2 epitron ajf- chavezgu jewel__ jdfriedrikson les tokenrov1 Lord_Nightmare grindhold_ yang_ 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quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:30:00Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-14T05:33:37Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:34:59Z beach: OK, suppose I have a binary tree, not balanced in general. I need to traverse every node. Before recursively traversing the left and the right sub-tree I can arrange it so that the depths of those sub-trees differ by at most one. But the two sub-trees can have very different shapes. What is the maximum depth I need to traverse, as a function of the number of nodes in the tree? 2015-11-14T05:36:49Z Bike: i would think the most traversals would be a 'tree' of nodes with one child each, which i think would result with your balancing in log2(n) levels? 2015-11-14T05:37:42Z beach: log(n) sounds right. I have to think about your analysis of the worst case. 2015-11-14T05:37:55Z Bike: my lack of analysis of the worst case 2015-11-14T05:38:10Z beach: OK, your hunch about the worst case. 2015-11-14T05:39:01Z Bike: the opposite extreme of a full tree has 2^depth nodes, so it'd still be log if you do no adjustments. 2015-11-14T05:39:08Z beach: Sure. 2015-11-14T05:39:29Z beach: I can also have a tree with the left sub-tree being perfectly balanced and the right sub-tree being skinny. 2015-11-14T05:39:53Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-14T05:39:55Z beach: But this case can obviously not be repeated in each sub-tree. 2015-11-14T05:40:22Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:41:07Z Bike: actually, what i'd do is generate some random trees and run through them to see if i'm using a remotely sensible heuristic 2015-11-14T05:41:25Z beach: I was just thinking the same thing. 2015-11-14T05:44:44Z beach: So now we have an algorithm for recursively traversing a splay tree: 1. height-balance the root and then traverse the sub-trees recursively. 2015-11-14T05:44:55Z beach: Er, stick a "2" in there somehwere. 2015-11-14T05:45:01Z beach: somewhere 2015-11-14T05:45:10Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:45:46Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T05:45:57Z Bike: red black trees have log levels, i think my guess isn't totally stupid... been a while since i've done algorithms though 2015-11-14T05:46:04Z beach: Where 1 might involve a series of rotations either simple our double. 2015-11-14T05:46:07Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:46:14Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:47:26Z beach: My hunch is that the entire thing is logarithmic, so I am not going to attempt to prove it before implementing it. But it might be interesting to stick in a paper some day. 2015-11-14T05:47:40Z vert2_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:47:49Z musegarden3 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:47:54Z Bike: i feel like it's probably already buried in a paper somewhere 2015-11-14T05:48:15Z beach: Possibly, but I am not so sure about it. 2015-11-14T05:48:16Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:48:26Z paul0`` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:48:39Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-14T05:48:39Z beach: Mostly, people make sure that their trees are always balanced, or else they go statistical balance. 2015-11-14T05:49:00Z skeledrew_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:49:13Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:49:24Z minion joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:49:37Z edran_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:49:41Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:03Z sssi` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:14Z sytse_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:14Z isoraqathedh_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:28Z easye` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:41Z PinealGl1ndOptic joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:50:55Z lancetw_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:51:00Z cataska_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z AeroNotix quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z musegarden2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z haasn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:03Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:04Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:04Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:05Z moop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:05Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:05Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z Riviera quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z oGMo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:06Z edran quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:07Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:07Z sytse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:08Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:08Z pchrist_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:08Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:09Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:09Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z sssi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:10Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:11Z oskarth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:11Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:11Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:11Z fe[nl]ix quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:12Z paul0` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:12Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:13Z oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 2015-11-14T05:51:20Z AeroNotix joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:51:25Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T05:51:27Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:27Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:27Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-14T05:51:31Z Blkt joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:51:33Z NhanH_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:51:45Z pchrist joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:52:00Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:52:22Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:52:22Z ski joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:52:24Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:52:27Z Riviera joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:53:00Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:53:06Z loz joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:53:50Z moop joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:54:29Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:55:02Z cataska_ is now known as cataska 2015-11-14T05:55:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:55:57Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:56:30Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T05:57:44Z lancetw_ is now known as lancetw 2015-11-14T05:57:58Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:59:10Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-14T05:59:15Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:00:01Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:00:16Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-14T06:00:24Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:00:24Z gz joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:01:05Z beach: I think I can do better than generating random trees. I think I can create a program that, given a number of nodes N of the tree, computes the maximum traversal depth D. Then I can simulate the result for much greater values of N than what would be possible with randomly-generated trees. 2015-11-14T06:01:21Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:01:22Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:01:39Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:01:56Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-14T06:03:08Z haasn joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:03:55Z Bike: how do you calculat ethe max depth? 2015-11-14T06:04:49Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:06:30Z zyg joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:07:52Z zyg: Hi dear lispers, are REQUIRE supposed to be a top-level statement? 2015-11-14T06:09:13Z beach: Bike: Given N nodes in a tree, recursively compute the max depth for all possible ways in which N-1 nodes can be split between the right and the left sub-trees. Then take the maximum of those values and add 1. 2015-11-14T06:09:40Z Bike: zyg: usually we use asdf now, but require is nice for the repl. 2015-11-14T06:09:42Z beach: Bike: It is a great application of dynamic programming. 2015-11-14T06:09:56Z Bike: beach: oh. yeah, makes sense. 2015-11-14T06:10:27Z Bike: and i suppose there are ~n ways to do the split, so it's perfectly tractable. 2015-11-14T06:10:37Z beach: Yes. 2015-11-14T06:10:57Z beach: And old results can be memoized. 2015-11-14T06:11:42Z zyg: sorry, should have said I'm going to use REQUIRE inside a function, to load SB-PROF (I guess sbcl doesn't want to rely on ASDF, even though they include it as another contrib). 2015-11-14T06:12:10Z zyg: I just got worried when I read that REQUIRE is deprecated. 2015-11-14T06:12:52Z Bike: you can use require inside a function. it's just a function, no compile time side effects. 2015-11-14T06:12:52Z beach: zyg: Everything that has been marked as deprecated can be considered un-deprecated since there won't be another standard. 2015-11-14T06:12:56Z Bike: are you writing an asdf contrib or something? 2015-11-14T06:13:00Z Bike: sbcl contrib i mean 2015-11-14T06:13:54Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:13:55Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:15:08Z beach: OK, time to go do something else. 2015-11-14T06:15:23Z beach: Bike: Thanks for the help. 2015-11-14T06:15:26Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-14T06:15:36Z zyg: beach: thanks! 2015-11-14T06:16:52Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:17:25Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:18:04Z zyg: Bike: thanks! I just want to include sb-prof in my application as a loadable. I'll treat REQUIRE as a function then. 2015-11-14T06:18:12Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:18:12Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:18:17Z nyef_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:19:04Z zyg: Was REQUIRE deprecated becase there was no "unrequire"? 2015-11-14T06:19:16Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:19:40Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:41Z tokenrov1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:41Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:41Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:41Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:43Z impulse- joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:19:45Z rvchangu| quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:45Z o`connor quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:45Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:50Z ngrud quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:50Z ASau` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T06:19:50Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:52Z jlarocco_work quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:56Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:56Z briankrent quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:19:56Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:20:01Z mtd joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:07Z tokenrove joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:07Z o`connor_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:33Z Bike: asdf can have sb-prof as a dependency, i'm pretty sure 2015-11-14T06:20:41Z Bike: asdf systems* 2015-11-14T06:20:50Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:56Z snits joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:20:57Z Bike: well, sb-sprof, anyway 2015-11-14T06:20:58Z zyoung_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:21:00Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:05Z zymurgy1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-11-14T06:21:15Z Guest899 is now known as aiwaz 2015-11-14T06:21:15Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:25Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:30Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:32Z zyoung joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:34Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:35Z briankrent joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:21:50Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:22:05Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:23:29Z zyg: Bike: Great! I'm talking about sb-Sprof ofcourse :D 2015-11-14T06:24:02Z Bike: yeah, sure. :depends-on (#+sbcl :sb-sprof), done. i have a little library that similarly requires sb-cltl2. 2015-11-14T06:24:35Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:27:10Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:27:17Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:28:14Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:28:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:36:13Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:36:30Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-14T06:37:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:37:40Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:39:05Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T06:41:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:42:06Z kyfho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T06:45:34Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:46:20Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-11-14T06:47:30Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:50:30Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-14T06:53:59Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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the connection) 2015-11-14T13:05:18Z pjb: minion: memo for malice: go ahead, I don't do much SO. I'm of the usenet generation. 2015-11-14T13:05:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell malice when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-14T13:06:00Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:08:15Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-14T13:12:55Z TDog joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:15:14Z scymtym: Bike: i think :depends-on (#+sbcl :sb-sprof) is supposed to be written as :depends-on ((:feature :sbcl :sb-sprof)) in modern ASDF 2015-11-14T13:21:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:23:18Z pjb: minion: memo for erjoalgo: use a filter to prevent sending unix commands: http://paste.lisp.org/+3F18 2015-11-14T13:23:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell erjoalgo when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-14T13:23:33Z alchemis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T13:24:14Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:25:36Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:26:13Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:27:11Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-14T13:27:38Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T13:29:28Z jeti joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:32:48Z vydd left #lisp 2015-11-14T13:33:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:35:15Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T13:36:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:40:45Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:46:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-14T13:53:34Z Ardeshir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-14T13:56:14Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:57:23Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-14T13:59:30Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T13:59:30Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:00:53Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:01:32Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:02:33Z kami quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T14:03:06Z baboon` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:03:18Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:03:34Z jeti quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:04:46Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:05:55Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:07:29Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:07:49Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:07:49Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:11:31Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:11:52Z kami` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T14:11:59Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:11:59Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:13:34Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:14:12Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:17:06Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T14:18:28Z kami` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T14:19:11Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-14T14:20:27Z otwieracz: Hey! 2015-11-14T14:20:36Z otwieracz: Let's say I've got some CFFI struct. 2015-11-14T14:20:56Z otwieracz: I can check it's size by (cffi:foreign-type-size '(:struct mystruct)) 2015-11-14T14:21:20Z otwieracz: However, can I somehow check the size of one of this struct's field? 2015-11-14T14:21:44Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-14T14:21:57Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Qtools-UI is coming together nicely. https://youtu.be/uk1rYH4DxkA 2015-11-14T15:03:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-14T15:08:21Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:08:45Z grouzen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T15:10:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:10:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T15:13:06Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:13:47Z mood: Shinmera: Looks great 2015-11-14T15:14:37Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-14T15:16:26Z emaczen: What is the order of execution with 'eval-when' and loading/compiling packages? 2015-11-14T15:17:59Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:19:16Z Xach: emaczen: eval-when is best used as "eval-always" by specifying :load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute. 2015-11-14T15:19:31Z Xach: emaczen: What do you mean by "order of execution"? 2015-11-14T15:20:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:20:23Z emaczen: What is loaded/compiled first: the forms in the body of 'eval-when' or the files in a package? 2015-11-14T15:20:24Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:22:41Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:24:45Z Xach: emaczen: files are processed by the compiler form-by-form. when an eval-when is encountered, its forms are evaluated immediately. then processing continues. 2015-11-14T15:24:48Z Xach: same with load. 2015-11-14T15:25:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:25:24Z Xach: the difference between compile and load is that some forms have no effect during compilation, only during loading or execution. during LOAD, each form is evaluated as it is seen. 2015-11-14T15:25:52Z Xach: eval-when forms are not considered separately from the files in which they appear. 2015-11-14T15:26:03Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:27:17Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:27:17Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-14T15:28:11Z emaczen: Xach: Ok, I'm trying to figure out how to manage readtables... If I have a package with the standard readtable, and then load a package without a standard readtable, when I go back to the original package it won't compile correctly because of the readtable. How can I make everything in this original package use the standard readtable again? 2015-11-14T15:30:56Z emaczen: Is there an object called the standard readtable? 2015-11-14T15:31:14Z jeti joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:32:17Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-14T15:32:39Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:35:59Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:37:26Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:37:39Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:37:46Z Xach: emaczen: one easy option is to use named-readtables to scope the changes s 2015-11-14T15:38:09Z pjb: emaczen: (copy-readtable nil) gives you a new standard readtable. 2015-11-14T15:38:22Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-14T15:38:23Z emaczen: pjb: Yes, this should help 2015-11-14T15:38:39Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:39:49Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T15:39:58Z pjb: I think that asdf should really wrap compile-file and load in standard (or asd file specified) bindings for all the CL variables, not only *package* and *readtable*. 2015-11-14T15:40:02Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:40:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:40:20Z pjb: For example, if you set *read-base*, most system will fail. 2015-11-14T15:40:32Z Xach: That change breaks some software. 2015-11-14T15:40:57Z pjb: (if you set it to a different value than ten). 2015-11-14T15:41:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T15:41:43Z emaczen: pjb: I just wrapped a (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) in an eval-when and it seems to reset the readtable as I wanted 2015-11-14T15:42:13Z pjb: Xach: the alternative is to have to reset all those variables in all the library files! 2015-11-14T15:42:20Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:42:47Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:43:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:43:32Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T15:43:55Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-11-14T15:43:58Z pjb: Xach: notice also that old lisp source used to set the read base in the mode line. But I doubt that asdf take it into account unfortunately. 2015-11-14T15:44:51Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:45:07Z truecoldmind: Is someone developing threading with SBCL on osx? Manual mentions that currently threading on osx is experimentally supported 2015-11-14T15:45:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:46:29Z Xach: truecoldmind: in my experience, it is pretty solid. but i do most of my development on macos x and then deploy on linux. 2015-11-14T15:46:40Z Xach: so if there are problems exposed by heavy use, i would probably not see them. 2015-11-14T15:47:10Z jeti quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:47:26Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:47:30Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:47:36Z Shinmera: The manual is pretty outdated. 2015-11-14T15:48:34Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T15:49:25Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:49:27Z truecoldmind: Xach: thanks. seems I need to custom SBCL build to enable threading (currently (make-thread) function is undefined) 2015-11-14T15:49:31Z mbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:49:32Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:50:11Z Xach: Shinmera: really? I don't think it's inaccurate in this regard. 2015-11-14T15:50:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:50:34Z truecoldmind: Shinmera: well, manual that i’m reading is dated 2015-10 2015-11-14T15:51:42Z Shinmera: Xach: From what I gathered from my time on #sbcl a bunch of the things on the website and in the manual shouldn't be warned about anymore. 2015-11-14T15:53:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T15:54:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:55:54Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T15:56:20Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T15:59:18Z arnsholt: Postmodern is really quite nice. Kudos to Marijn, if he happens to hang out here 2015-11-14T16:00:31Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T16:00:31Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T16:00:35Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T16:00:39Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:00:43Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:00:55Z scymtym: Shinmera, Xach: the manual has been changed in that regard: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/a545bd45db4a6f2c91fcbfe9999194857390925c 2015-11-14T16:01:36Z XachX: Is sb thread enabled by default now? 2015-11-14T16:02:17Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:02:26Z scymtym: not on MacOS, afaik 2015-11-14T16:03:08Z minion joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:03:08Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:03:15Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-14T16:03:43Z Nikotiin` is now known as Nikotiini 2015-11-14T16:04:40Z truecoldmind: Xach: I’m building sbcl to enable threading on osx now (it is not enabled by default) 2015-11-14T16:06:27Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:10:06Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T16:10:53Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T16:12:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:12:40Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:13:33Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:13:46Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T16:17:45Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-14T16:18:16Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Hooray. 2015-11-14T20:09:59Z jewel__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:10:05Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:10:44Z slyrus: lots of low hanging optimization fruit in the sequence alignment code if there any bioinformaticy lispers around 2015-11-14T20:11:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:12:45Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T20:13:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:14:15Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:14:34Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:15:32Z eni joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:17:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:17:06Z JuanDaugherty: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-bio/ the back link is the only thing that works 2015-11-14T20:17:24Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-14T20:18:30Z TDog joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:18:31Z JuanDaugherty: https://github.com/slyrus/cl-bio i guess is what was meant 2015-11-14T20:18:47Z spyrosoft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:19:02Z slyrus: yes, the second one 2015-11-14T20:19:41Z slyrus: guess I need to update the c-l.net page 2015-11-14T20:20:34Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:23:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:24:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:25:18Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:26:21Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T20:26:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:28:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-14T20:30:17Z survi joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:37:51Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:39:32Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:40:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:41:49Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:42:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T20:42:22Z skeledrew_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-14T20:42:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:44:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:48:00Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-14T20:54:10Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-14T20:55:16Z rocx quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-14T20:57:30Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-14T20:57:40Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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They should be printed as vectors #(...) 2015-11-14T23:50:52Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-14T23:51:13Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-14T23:53:38Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-11-14T23:58:47Z cagmz quit 2015-11-14T23:59:19Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T00:02:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:07:55Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T00:08:12Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:10:34Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:13:41Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T00:15:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:15:48Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-15T00:15:50Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:18:11Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:21:45Z phf: i'm surprised that cffi doesn't have :nullable compound type, i.e. (:nullable :string) accepts string or nil, and if it's nil passes through null pointer. seems like another common pattern 2015-11-15T00:22:06Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-15T00:22:47Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:25:06Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T00:25:49Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T00:26:54Z emaczen: In one file, inside an eval-when I have a reader-macro for #\[ 2015-11-15T00:27:33Z emaczen: outside of the eval-when in this file, I have a form that evaluates (read-from-string "[ ... ]") 2015-11-15T00:27:43Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:28:07Z emaczen: However, it does not parse the "[...]" according to the reader macro definition I gave it. 2015-11-15T00:29:03Z emaczen: The "[ ... ]" is not a string literal -- sorry for the confusion 2015-11-15T00:32:27Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:33:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:33:46Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:34:35Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:35:05Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:35:33Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:37:59Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:38:11Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T00:40:08Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:42:19Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-15T00:50:10Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-15T00:53:12Z pjb: drmeister: you could print vectors as #1A(…) when there's a non standard reader dispatching macro on #( 2015-11-15T00:54:21Z pjb: drmeister: ccl for example, prints some things differently when some reader macro is defined (I don't remember the exact case right now). 2015-11-15T00:54:25Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-15T00:55:14Z pjb: emaczen: it all depends on WHEN read-from-string is called. 2015-11-15T00:55:51Z emaczen: pjb: It's inside a five-am test... 2015-11-15T00:56:01Z pjb: setting the readtable in an eval-WHEN can only have an effect WHEN the situations listed in the eval-WHEN are actual. Ie. WHEN you compile the file, or load the fasl or load the file. 2015-11-15T00:56:17Z pjb: Are your tests run DURING one of those three situations? 2015-11-15T00:56:52Z pjb: It'd be better to set the readtable WHEN you call read-from-string. 2015-11-15T00:57:33Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you 2015-11-15T00:57:41Z pjb: (let ((*readtable* *my-readtable*)) (read-from-string "…")) 2015-11-15T00:57:43Z emaczen: pjb: I'm running asdf:test-system -- I guess this is executed after loading... 2015-11-15T00:58:17Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T00:58:42Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:01:10Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-15T01:02:18Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-15T01:03:45Z emaczen: pjb: Sweet! 2015-11-15T01:08:07Z phf: so in cffi, (convert-from-foreign (null-pointer) :string) => nil, but (convert-to-foreign nil :string) => error: NIL is not a Lisp string or pointer. 2015-11-15T01:08:07Z phf: 2015-11-15T01:10:59Z scymtym_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-11-15T01:12:44Z skeledrew_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:13:34Z papachan_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:14:16Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-11-15T01:16:46Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:17:03Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T01:18:22Z jeti quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T01:18:43Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T01:22:37Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:27:43Z Xach: loke: what was up with your string-case update? 2015-11-15T01:29:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:30:41Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T01:30:54Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:40:46Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:41:20Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:44:38Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-15T01:45:38Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T01:46:15Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T01:49:22Z Alex00 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:52:28Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-15T01:52:37Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:52:50Z Alex00 left #lisp 2015-11-15T01:53:02Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T01:56:40Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:00:15Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:04:37Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:07:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:07:23Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T02:07:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:09:04Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:09:10Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:11:36Z HammyJammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T02:11:36Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T02:11:44Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:12:22Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:12:47Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:15:37Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:17:41Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:18:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:21:22Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:24:38Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T02:37:32Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:38:39Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:38:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T02:44:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T02:50:05Z Zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:51:30Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:57:35Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:58:07Z digiorgi: i tried to load hunchentoot 2015-11-15T02:58:14Z zz_m joined #lisp 2015-11-15T02:58:39Z digiorgi: in windows, but says it needs libssl32.dll, how is the best way to install it? 2015-11-15T02:58:57Z digiorgi: i mean... any easy and binary formar available out there? 2015-11-15T02:59:11Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:02:18Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T03:02:32Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:02:58Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T03:03:17Z drmeister: loke: Are you online? 2015-11-15T03:04:27Z drmeister: I'm setting up Arch linux 2015-11-15T03:04:33Z drmeister: All I have to say is "Holy crap" 2015-11-15T03:05:35Z drmeister: Thank goodness for youtube 2015-11-15T03:07:34Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-15T03:08:20Z axion: drmeister: why? 2015-11-15T03:08:33Z Bike: because twitch installs arch linux isn't very informative, probably 2015-11-15T03:08:50Z drmeister: To set up a virtual machine for developing Clasp using llvm3.7 2015-11-15T03:10:10Z axion: Arch Linux is known for its documentation 2015-11-15T03:10:13Z axion: Is all I meant 2015-11-15T03:10:38Z drmeister: Maybe I'm doing things the hard way? 2015-11-15T03:14:12Z jeti joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:14:21Z Bike: I used https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide 2015-11-15T03:14:35Z Bike: wel, the beginners' g uide, more likely. 2015-11-15T03:19:14Z jeti quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T03:19:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:21:15Z pillton tries to align drmeister's "holy crap" with Arch Linux distribution's "Keep it Simple." 2015-11-15T03:21:31Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:26:28Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T03:27:23Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:29:43Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T03:30:36Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:32:06Z zwdr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T03:32:58Z zwdr joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:35:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:40:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T03:51:12Z spyrosoft: In the Quicklisp blog, it mentions a new package available called lisp-critic, but it won't load for me. Will it load for you? 2015-11-15T03:51:12Z spyrosoft: http://blog.quicklisp.org/ 2015-11-15T03:51:37Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-15T03:53:43Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:54:01Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-11-15T03:54:14Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T03:54:14Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-15T03:54:42Z Bike: did you update the dists? 2015-11-15T03:56:56Z spyrosoft: Nope. That was it. 2015-11-15T03:57:54Z Bike: (ql:quickload :lisp-critic) works 4 me 2015-11-15T03:58:09Z Zabriskie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T04:03:23Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:05:18Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:07:35Z pillton: Is there much overhead associated with invoking a funcallable-standard-object over invoking a closure? 2015-11-15T04:08:54Z Bike: i don't know the practicalities, but it's just a special slot, and one with less complications. old implementations used jumps and stuff 2015-11-15T04:10:32Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:10:50Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T04:11:46Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T04:15:55Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-11-15T04:16:38Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:17:41Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:18:33Z pillton: They are slower than a closure. They are faster then (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'my-function args)) though. 2015-11-15T04:19:33Z nell joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:21:46Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:21:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-15T04:30:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:33:29Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:38:19Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:41:53Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-11-15T04:42:53Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:43:30Z dTal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:43:33Z paul0``` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:43:37Z mason`` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:43:45Z beach: drmeister: I am back from my trip. Trying to cure a nasty cold I managed to get during that trip. I should be a bit more active starting real soon now. 2015-11-15T04:43:47Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:43:59Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:44:35Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:09Z drmeister: Good. It goes without saying - I'm sorry to hear about what's happening there. 2015-11-15T04:45:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:12Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:12Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:12Z hratsimihah quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:18Z beach: Yeah, it's sad. 2015-11-15T04:45:41Z beach: Thanks. 2015-11-15T04:45:48Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:48Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:48Z mprelude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:48Z yauz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:48Z jself quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:49Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:49Z paul0`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:49Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:49Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:49Z mason` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:45:50Z dTal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:46:18Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:46:48Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:46:48Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T04:46:48Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:46:53Z hratsimihah joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:46:55Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:47:13Z yauz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:49:32Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:50:14Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:52:09Z jself joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:52:38Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-15T04:52:38Z drmeister: beach: I've been using cclasp a lot over the last couple of weeks, putting it through it's paces. It is really robust and fast. 2015-11-15T04:52:51Z beach: Excellent! 2015-11-15T04:52:55Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:53:16Z beach: Maybe that fact will give me more clients for Cleavir. :) 2015-11-15T04:53:46Z drmeister: It is proving to be a really solid foundation for Cando - I've been building molecules with it. 2015-11-15T04:54:09Z beach: Good, that's what the main goal is. 2015-11-15T04:54:16Z beach: The rest is just yak shaving. 2015-11-15T04:54:59Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T04:59:13Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T04:59:37Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-11-15T04:59:47Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:01:30Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T05:04:33Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:05:35Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-15T05:09:17Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:11:09Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T05:15:27Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:19:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:30:08Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:30:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:31:24Z broken_clock quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-15T05:31:34Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T05:34:45Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:35:35Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T05:36:33Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:36:46Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:37:23Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:39:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:41:40Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:43:54Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:49:02Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:50:18Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:50:47Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:52:37Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:56:36Z ASau`` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:56:56Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:57:15Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:57:33Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T05:57:51Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:58:27Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T05:58:44Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:58:46Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T05:59:44Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:59:46Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T05:59:59Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:00:09Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:00:38Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:01:14Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:01:29Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:01:42Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:01:43Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:02:36Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:02:55Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:02:56Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:03:31Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:03:42Z jasom: beach: difference between cleavir and sicl? 2015-11-15T06:03:54Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:04:29Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:04:50Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:05:25Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:05:31Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:05:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:06:20Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:06:40Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:07:01Z beach: minion: Please tell jasom about SICL. 2015-11-15T06:07:01Z minion: jasom: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2015-11-15T06:07:05Z beach: minion: Please tell jasom about Cleavir. 2015-11-15T06:07:05Z minion: jasom: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future 2015-11-15T06:07:16Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:07:33Z jasom: thanks 2015-11-15T06:07:34Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:08:28Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:08:34Z spyrosoft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:08:58Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:09:35Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:09:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:10:35Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:10:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:12:19Z axion: argh...having a hard time with this simple task 2015-11-15T06:13:09Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:13:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:14:17Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:14:37Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:15:08Z axion: i need to loop through a 2d bit array, and return the first index where all 8 surrounding indices are also 0. any pointers? 2015-11-15T06:15:44Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:16:03Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:17:08Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:17:26Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:18:01Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:18:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:18:48Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:18:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:19:09Z stardiviner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:19:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:19:40Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-15T06:20:10Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:20:17Z Bike: (loop named out for i from 1 below (1- xlength) do (loop for j from 1 below (1- ylength) do (when (and (zerop (aref array (1- i) (1- j))) ...) (return-from out (values i j))))) or something? 2015-11-15T06:24:11Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:26:44Z axion: thanks Bike 2015-11-15T06:27:01Z axion: i have never did this named/return-from stuff before 2015-11-15T06:32:30Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:37:05Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:37:56Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:39:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:40:22Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:41:41Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T06:43:02Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:43:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:44:31Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-15T06:45:04Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-15T06:51:02Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:51:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T06:53:22Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:54:25Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:55:23Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:55:35Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T06:57:02Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:57:22Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T06:58:20Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:00:46Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:04:46Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T07:04:46Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:12:45Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T07:14:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:18:08Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-15T07:18:57Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:21:39Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:23:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:28:55Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T07:30:01Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T07:30:30Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:30:30Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T07:30:30Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:34:22Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:38:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T07:40:00Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T07:45:06Z lnostdal quit (Quit: Invest and trade anonymously: https://goo.gl/NwRDC2) 2015-11-15T07:45:19Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T07:46:03Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T07:50:10Z cmpitg is now known as cmpitg|zZzZz 2015-11-15T07:50:26Z cmpitg|zZzZz is now known as cmpitg 2015-11-15T07:51:42Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:54:58Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:56:21Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T07:56:52Z Bahman_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:58:46Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-15T07:58:55Z Bahman__ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T08:00:11Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T08:02:11Z Bahman_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T08:02:33Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-11-15T12:58:59Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:00:24Z Wasdaf left #lisp 2015-11-15T13:00:36Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T13:00:43Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:02:08Z Ven__ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:02:11Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:02:27Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:04:20Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:04:38Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:06:08Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:06:49Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T13:07:09Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:13:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:15:21Z Ven__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:15:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:17:11Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:18:41Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:20:47Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:22:23Z Yuuhi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:23:35Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:24:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:24:53Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T13:25:43Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T13:27:48Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-15T13:28:06Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:30:11Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:30:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T13:30:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:31:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:39:16Z UFeazar001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-15T13:39:34Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:41:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:42:28Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:43:00Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:45:08Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T13:45:52Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:46:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:47:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:48:06Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:50:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:50:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:52:19Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:52:43Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:55:01Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:55:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:55:32Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T13:56:40Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T13:57:22Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Each node has a parent pointer anyway, so I can do the traversal as a state machine. 2015-11-15T14:39:09Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Thanks! 2015-11-15T15:34:55Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T15:36:52Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:43:37Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:44:04Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:48:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:50:35Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T15:51:29Z autonomicon joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:52:09Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:55:40Z Wasdaf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-15T15:56:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T15:56:29Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T15:57:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T15:57:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:57:53Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T15:58:31Z cyberias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T15:58:59Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:07:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T16:08:31Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:10:32Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T16:12:14Z nopcall joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:13:26Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:14:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T16:15:35Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-15T16:16:10Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:18:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:19:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T16:19:59Z momo-reina quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T16:20:27Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:20:47Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T16:21:31Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:22:23Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T16:22:45Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:23:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:25:30Z halfcrazy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T16:31:39Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T16:31:43Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:32:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:33:52Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:35:08Z ThePhoeron_ is now known as ThePhoeron 2015-11-15T16:35:19Z Xach: lacedaemon: something in the latest sbcl busts iolib 2015-11-15T16:35:30Z Xach: something to do with stricter feature expression checking 2015-11-15T16:35:32Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:36:16Z knicklux quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T16:36:24Z Xach: oh, maybe it's not sbcl, but iolib 2015-11-15T16:36:43Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:36:51Z Xach: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/grovel/grovel.lisp#L270 is invalid ... (not ) must be (not (or )) i believe 2015-11-15T16:40:11Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-15T16:40:26Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:42:06Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:42:21Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T16:42:50Z gilez left #lisp 2015-11-15T16:44:14Z Posterdati: is there a good tutorial for binary-types:define-bitfield ? Thanks! 2015-11-15T16:44:24Z Xach: Posterdati: no 2015-11-15T16:44:37Z Posterdati: nice 2015-11-15T16:44:40Z Xach: lacedaemon: some lisps don't check, but at least clisp and recent sbcl do (i haven't tried old sbcl) 2015-11-15T16:44:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:44:49Z lacedaemon: Xach: thanks 2015-11-15T16:44:53Z Posterdati: and how it is supposed to use that? 2015-11-15T16:44:56Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2015-11-15T16:45:06Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2015-11-15T16:45:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:46:38Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T16:47:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T16:54:33Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-15T16:58:21Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T17:01:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T17:02:21Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:06:21Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T17:12:12Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:12:39Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:13:15Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:13:47Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:14:53Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:17:32Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:17:53Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:18:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T17:18:37Z hiroakip: hi, is there a better way to do (setq m (cons a m))? 2015-11-15T17:19:07Z Shinmera: (push a m) 2015-11-15T17:19:50Z hiroakip: ah, great thank you 2015-11-15T17:25:46Z cyberias joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:27:14Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:30:21Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:33:42Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:34:19Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:35:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:35:58Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T17:36:35Z Shinmera: More Qui components, hooray. https://youtu.be/u5NPXCPLg78 2015-11-15T17:37:37Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:37:54Z Ardeshir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T17:38:26Z erjag is now known as varjag 2015-11-15T17:39:19Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-11-15T17:41:03Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:41:35Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:42:35Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:42:46Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T17:43:46Z hiroakip: ist there somethins similar for (setq a (foobar a))? 2015-11-15T17:44:16Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:45:55Z Bike: you can defsetf something if you like. 2015-11-15T17:46:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:48:51Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T17:49:06Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Because that's what this is, just converted to LATEX. 2015-11-15T19:19:44Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T19:20:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:23:47Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T19:24:47Z TDog joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:25:14Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:26:39Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:27:07Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T19:27:46Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:27:48Z alexshendi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T19:28:10Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T19:28:44Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:28:51Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T19:29:11Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T19:29:44Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:30:11Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-15T19:33:05Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:35:28Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:37:02Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:39:35Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T19:40:23Z shemale_magic joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:42:52Z shemale_magic: read evaluate print 2015-11-15T19:43:20Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T19:44:56Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T19:47:25Z zz_m quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-15T19:49:26Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T19:50:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:50:44Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-15T19:51:24Z Posterdati: could anyone provide me an example of bitfield usage from binary-types? Thanks 2015-11-15T19:53:39Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-11-15T19:54:13Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:55:18Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T19:57:14Z Quadrescence quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T19:57:20Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T19:57:51Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T19:58:07Z alexshendi joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:00:11Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T20:03:08Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T20:03:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:03:37Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:03:56Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:04:18Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:04:23Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:04:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:05:57Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:06:26Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T20:06:32Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: are you there? 2015-11-15T20:06:43Z Xach: Posterdati: still no 2015-11-15T20:12:15Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T20:17:18Z autonomicon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T20:18:06Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:18:27Z clique left #lisp 2015-11-15T20:18:53Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:19:08Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:19:20Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:20:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:22:03Z shemale_magic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:22:40Z shemale_magic joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:25:23Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-11-15T20:33:42Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:34:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:34:30Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:34:50Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:35:05Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T20:35:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:40:00Z p_l quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2015-11-15T20:40:15Z p_l joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:40:17Z ejbs: Posterdati: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types/blob/master/binary-types.lisp#L875 Also, there is an example in the README 2015-11-15T20:41:08Z ejbs: Xach: Is there any reason that you responded except because that you can't help? 2015-11-15T20:41:09Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:43:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:43:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T20:43:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:48:26Z spyrosoft quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T20:49:01Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:50:36Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-15T20:51:19Z puchacz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:51:52Z puchacz: hi, how to check how many bits a positive integer needs? (ceiling (log X 2)) is correct but not the fastest way 2015-11-15T20:52:08Z pjb: integer-length 2015-11-15T20:52:15Z puchacz: pjb thanks 2015-11-15T20:52:37Z pjb: (integer-length -7) #| --> 3 |# works for negative too. 2015-11-15T20:52:49Z puchacz: pjb any cheat sheet with bit operations you know of please? 2015-11-15T20:53:01Z pjb: I have it in my brain: I read CLHS once. 2015-11-15T20:53:34Z puchacz: wow. respect 2015-11-15T20:53:53Z pjb: Read CLHS you too, it's good read ;-) 2015-11-15T20:54:03Z kristof: I would second that 2015-11-15T20:54:03Z puchacz: I found it hard to read like a novel because it has highly interlinked and nonlinear structure on lispworks site... 2015-11-15T20:54:13Z kristof: Kent Pitman is just a very good writer, even if he doesn't think so. 2015-11-15T20:54:14Z pjb: Sure, not like a novel. 2015-11-15T20:54:21Z pjb: zigzag into it. 2015-11-15T20:54:33Z puchacz: cltl is a "novel" :-) 2015-11-15T20:54:52Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-15T20:55:00Z kristof: It's most fun to read if you let your curiosity guide you. "Oh, I didn't know that worked that way. Ooh, a hyperlink." 2015-11-15T20:55:42Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: what's up? 2015-11-15T20:55:48Z puchacz: this way I skipped most parts.... I only managed to go through cltl as I say :) 2015-11-15T20:55:57Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-15T20:57:33Z puchacz: oh, we have bit operations here: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_logand.htm 2015-11-15T20:57:34Z puchacz: good 2015-11-15T20:58:15Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:04:28Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T21:04:31Z vaguelyNothere quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client) 2015-11-15T21:06:24Z axion: is there a function in the standard or some other system that rotates a list in-place by shifting the first element to the end? 2015-11-15T21:06:37Z nopf_ is now known as nopf 2015-11-15T21:07:07Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T21:07:34Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T21:08:08Z Shinmera: (setf (cdr (last list)) (cons (first list) NIL) list (rest list)) 2015-11-15T21:08:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:09:51Z axion: that isn't exactly what i was looking for 2015-11-15T21:10:10Z axion: i need to operate on a place, and modify that place, keeping the length, preferably with an existing function somewhere rather than doing it manually 2015-11-15T21:11:07Z dim: shiftf or rotatef maybe? 2015-11-15T21:11:26Z Shinmera: dim: Those don't operate on lists. 2015-11-15T21:11:35Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-15T21:12:04Z axion: wonder if alexandria has something 2015-11-15T21:12:07Z sshbio joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:12:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:13:43Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-15T21:14:54Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:17:18Z Bike: i don't see what's wrong with shinmera's. 2015-11-15T21:17:40Z Bike: you could do (defmacro rotate (list) that) if you want. 2015-11-15T21:18:19Z Bike: well, and then return the list, whatever. 2015-11-15T21:18:33Z Shinmera: And it needs a binding for the two value accesses, but pretty much. 2015-11-15T21:19:48Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:21:45Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-15T21:22:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:23:34Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:25:08Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:25:36Z pjb: (rotatef (cdr (last place)) place (cdr place)) 2015-11-15T21:27:12Z Bike: doesn't that give a circular list? 2015-11-15T21:27:20Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:27:33Z Bike: no. hm 2015-11-15T21:28:08Z guna joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:29:04Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T21:30:30Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T21:31:43Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+3F4V 2015-11-15T21:31:55Z pjb: for (rotate-list (aref v (incf i))). 2015-11-15T21:32:14Z pjb: perhaps s/rotate-list/list-rotatef/ ? 2015-11-15T21:32:26Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T21:34:39Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:34:46Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T21:34:49Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:37:29Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:39:22Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:40:14Z grindhold_ is now known as friedrich_woehle 2015-11-15T21:40:50Z friedrich_woehle is now known as grindhold 2015-11-15T21:49:14Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T21:50:35Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:51:03Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:51:33Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T21:51:55Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T21:52:03Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T21:52:52Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:54:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:54:56Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:55:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-15T21:56:44Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T21:56:47Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-15T21:59:19Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:05:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T22:08:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:09:58Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:10:46Z jcmdln quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:11:37Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:14:03Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T22:14:03Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:15:52Z DynamicMetaFlow joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:16:02Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:17:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:18:24Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:19:48Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-15T22:21:51Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-15T22:22:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:24:28Z fourier_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:24:39Z fourier_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-15T22:24:46Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:24:56Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:24:56Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-15T22:24:56Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:25:23Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:26:10Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-15T22:27:05Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:27:50Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:28:04Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:29:38Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:29:45Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-15T22:31:27Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: just a greeting 2015-11-15T22:32:28Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:32:39Z Posterdati: I was trying to use binary-types:define-bitfield 2015-11-15T22:33:52Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:33:53Z jackdaniel: I've never used the binary-types-extra extension (and used binary-times *some* time ago) so I won't be much of help here 2015-11-15T22:33:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:35:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:38:44Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:38:53Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:41:15Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-15T22:42:38Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:42:47Z DynamicMetaFlow quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:45:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:48:34Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:49:00Z guthur` left #lisp 2015-11-15T22:51:33Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:53:10Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-15T22:54:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:55:34Z nyef_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T22:58:10Z alexshendi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T23:00:07Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T23:01:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:02:35Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:05:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:08:25Z nyef_ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:08:26Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-15T23:10:43Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-15T23:11:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:18:15Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:20:09Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:21:24Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:21:40Z pillton: Any recommendations on a code walker? 2015-11-15T23:23:19Z JuanDaugherty: is that the same as a symbolic debugger? 2015-11-15T23:24:02Z JuanDaugherty: or like an ide browser with xref? 2015-11-15T23:24:32Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:24:57Z zz_m joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:25:27Z pillton: It is something that allows analysis of code. 2015-11-15T23:25:48Z pillton: e.g. does this code contain a call to a function defined in the lexical environment? 2015-11-15T23:26:39Z zz_m is now known as ryy 2015-11-15T23:26:43Z ryy is now known as zz_m 2015-11-15T23:26:54Z JuanDaugherty: clisp apparently has something by that name 2015-11-15T23:31:01Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-15T23:32:00Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:34:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:36:02Z lispyon__ joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:36:15Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T23:36:39Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-15T23:38:13Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:43:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:43:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:45:43Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-15T23:49:48Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:50:05Z lmj joined #lisp 2015-11-15T23:53:06Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-15T23:53:48Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-15T23:56:36Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:05:17Z lispyon__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T00:05:18Z shemale_magic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T00:05:35Z shemale_magic joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:07:47Z zz_m is now known as ryy00 2015-11-16T00:13:28Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-16T00:13:53Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T00:18:11Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:22:50Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T00:28:41Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-11-16T00:32:27Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T00:39:01Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:40:07Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:43:48Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-16T00:46:20Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:46:38Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-11-16T00:51:21Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:51:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T00:51:47Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T00:53:11Z gilez_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T00:56:57Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:57:20Z lisper29 is now known as Guest31743 2015-11-16T00:57:35Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-16T00:57:43Z Guest31743 is now known as lisper29` 2015-11-16T00:58:51Z nell joined #lisp 2015-11-16T01:01:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:05:46Z lisper29` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T01:07:47Z ryy00 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:08:25Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:10:28Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:14:17Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T01:29:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:30:28Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-16T01:30:57Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:31:51Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T01:31:59Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-11-16T01:32:20Z arpunk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T01:32:40Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:32:40Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T01:32:41Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-11-16T01:32:53Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm going to sleep.) 2015-11-16T02:19:43Z chef__ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:21:30Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T02:26:44Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-16T02:29:50Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:33:59Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T02:35:18Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:41:23Z ruricb joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:48:11Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:48:32Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:49:48Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-16T02:52:39Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:53:14Z digiorgi: what is the use of an uninterned symbol?? 2015-11-16T02:53:21Z digiorgi: like #:foo? 2015-11-16T02:53:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:53:44Z digiorgi: avoid memory consumption when using keywords? 2015-11-16T02:54:03Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T02:54:23Z digiorgi: avoid memory errors if someone for an error the code is interning so much symbols? 2015-11-16T02:54:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:55:26Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:55:26Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2015-11-16T02:55:26Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:58:07Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T02:58:29Z Bike: well, most basically, it lets you have different symbols with the same name without bothering with packages 2015-11-16T03:01:24Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:01:52Z chef__ quit (Quit: chef__) 2015-11-16T03:02:35Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:03:34Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:03:54Z pjb: digiorgi: basically: ensure that one cannot read it. 2015-11-16T03:05:02Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T03:05:11Z vptr joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:07:07Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:08:15Z digiorgi: someone has a link to text with examples using #: ?? 2015-11-16T03:10:10Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi '#:' {} \; 2015-11-16T03:10:54Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2015-11-16T03:11:01Z Bike: digiorgi: any call to gensym 2015-11-16T03:11:21Z vptr left #lisp 2015-11-16T03:11:23Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi -e '#:\|gensym\|gentemp\|make-symbol' {} \; 2015-11-16T03:14:46Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T03:20:51Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:24:07Z cagmz quit 2015-11-16T03:25:36Z loke: pjb: always better to use + rather than \; 2015-11-16T03:26:34Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:35:01Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:37:06Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:38:28Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:39:01Z myrkraverk: Is there a standard (format ...) destination that goes to standard error? 2015-11-16T03:39:23Z myrkraverk: I mean, in CL, or is that "implementation defined" ? 2015-11-16T03:39:29Z Bike: clhs *error-output* 2015-11-16T03:39:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm 2015-11-16T03:39:37Z Bike: hell yes i actually remembered it 2015-11-16T03:39:42Z myrkraverk: thank you specbot 2015-11-16T03:40:02Z Bike: i mean, it being C stderr is not defined obviously 2015-11-16T03:40:06Z loke: T is just shorthand for *standard-output* 2015-11-16T03:40:15Z myrkraverk: I see. 2015-11-16T03:40:20Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-16T03:41:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:44:47Z myrkraverk: When I make an SBCL #! --script, is it possible to get the command that's actually used to run it? (car sb-ext:*posix-argv*) is my sbcl binary. 2015-11-16T03:45:42Z loke: myrkraverk: That's actually surprising 2015-11-16T03:45:49Z loke: That's not "posix" at all. 2015-11-16T03:46:14Z myrkraverk: Hmm, maybe it's a bug in OS X then? 2015-11-16T03:46:42Z loke: myrkraverk: I wouldn't know. Why don't you try in Unix? 2015-11-16T03:47:14Z myrkraverk: I have Linux too, so yeah, I'll try it. 2015-11-16T03:48:16Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:48:34Z pillton: myrkraverk: This is one way to do it: ":" ; exec sbcl --load "$0" --eval "(main \"$0\")" 2015-11-16T03:49:08Z myrkraverk: Hmm, ok. 2015-11-16T03:50:09Z pillton: Using ":" instead of #! is great. I wish I had thought of that. 2015-11-16T03:50:50Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:52:07Z spyrosoft quit (Quit: spyrosoft) 2015-11-16T03:52:15Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:52:19Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-16T03:52:45Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T03:55:00Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T04:00:40Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:03:14Z NeverDie is now known as slim_shady 2015-11-16T04:04:29Z shemale_magic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T04:04:33Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:05:07Z shemale_magic joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:06:09Z slim_shady is now known as NeverDie 2015-11-16T04:06:37Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:07:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-16T04:10:31Z jleija quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-16T04:10:32Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:11:08Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:11:16Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:14:55Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:17:16Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:17:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-16T04:17:33Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-16T04:17:35Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:20:16Z gilez_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:20:19Z dfox quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T04:23:38Z pillton: beach: Is the call to fdefinition in http://paste.lisp.org/display/159601 defined according to your first class environment definition? 2015-11-16T04:24:41Z beach: It looks that way, yes. 2015-11-16T04:25:02Z pillton: Good man. 2015-11-16T04:26:09Z beach: But, unless that FDEFINITION is not CL:FDEFINITION, it is wrong, because CL:FDEFINITION doesn't take an environment argument. 2015-11-16T04:26:43Z pillton: I know CL:FDEFINITION doesn't support it. 2015-11-16T04:26:53Z pillton: I wondered if your proposal did. 2015-11-16T04:27:26Z beach: It does, yes. 2015-11-16T04:28:23Z beach: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf page 5 left column in the middle. 2015-11-16T04:30:07Z beach: pillton: Where did you find this code? 2015-11-16T04:32:02Z pillton: I wrote it. I have a problem where I need to determine if an operator is in the global environment or the current lexical environment. 2015-11-16T04:32:23Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:32:34Z beach: I see. 2015-11-16T04:32:54Z beach: Well, my proposed protocol does not apply to lexical environments. 2015-11-16T04:33:15Z beach: That's in a follow-up paper. :) 2015-11-16T04:34:55Z pillton: Sorry, "the current environment" I should have said. 2015-11-16T04:35:32Z beach: Right. And I am saying that this code will fail in SICL unless the environment is a global environment. 2015-11-16T04:35:44Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:36:10Z pillton: Oh ok. 2015-11-16T04:36:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:36:41Z beach: But that's just because I haven't defined the behavior for those protocol generic functions unless the environment is a global environment. 2015-11-16T04:37:01Z beach: Nothing prevents you from extending the behavior to local environments. 2015-11-16T04:37:07Z pillton: The word "lexical" in current lexical environment is a tautology isn't it? 2015-11-16T04:37:58Z beach: It might be. It is too early for me to think clearly; and a bad cold on top of that. 2015-11-16T04:39:53Z pillton: Does SICL's ordinary lambda list definition support &environment ? 2015-11-16T04:40:14Z beach: Not at the moment, no. But that's a good idea. 2015-11-16T04:40:30Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:41:04Z beach: In fact, it's a very good idea. 2015-11-16T04:41:07Z beach: Thanks! 2015-11-16T04:41:19Z pillton: No worries. 2015-11-16T04:42:20Z pillton: Every time someone asks about dynamic bindings I think "If only ordinary lambda lists supported &environment." The explanation would be over in 10 seconds. 2015-11-16T04:42:44Z Bike: what 2015-11-16T04:42:51Z beach: pillton: That's different though. 2015-11-16T04:43:04Z beach: pillton: That environment would be the dynamic run-time environment. 2015-11-16T04:43:37Z pillton: That is what I want! 2015-11-16T04:44:03Z pillton: You have that with first class environments. What does fdefinition lookup? 2015-11-16T04:44:08Z beach: Great, but that's not what my proposal is about. 2015-11-16T04:44:10Z Bike: that's an &environment different from every other use, and most people asking about dynamic bindings don't know about &environment anyway 2015-11-16T04:44:57Z pillton: I don't see why it is different to every other use. 2015-11-16T04:45:42Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:45:43Z Bike: because it's a runtime environment instead of a compile-time one, of course 2015-11-16T04:46:55Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:47:45Z pillton: Ok I agree. I'm just saying that there exists an environment at run time and it should be formally accessible. 2015-11-16T04:48:10Z Bike: i wouldn't mind 2015-11-16T04:48:22Z beach: pillton: You need to think about that carefully. 2015-11-16T04:48:51Z beach: pillton: An implementation using shallow binding might not work. 2015-11-16T04:48:53Z Bike: i think i'd actually like if dynamic variables were more separate from lexical ones, like having to do symbol-value and such perhaps, but i'm not sure 2015-11-16T04:49:03Z Bike: i just realized that. 2015-11-16T04:49:51Z loke: Bike: Ever used the SPECIAL declaration? 2015-11-16T04:50:04Z Bike: yes? 2015-11-16T04:50:26Z pillton: beach: Probably. Maintaining compatibility with CL implementations isn't one of my goals. 2015-11-16T04:51:01Z jasom: Bike: how would you do lexical bindings then? 2015-11-16T04:51:07Z beach: pillton: OK, just saying. 2015-11-16T04:51:11Z TDog joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:51:22Z Bike: jasom: same as now? 2015-11-16T04:51:29Z Bike: i am apparently being unclear 2015-11-16T04:51:41Z pillton: beach: Knowing what you break is worth knowing. 2015-11-16T04:51:49Z jasom: sorry how would youy do *dynamic* bindings 2015-11-16T04:52:13Z beach: LET-DYNAMIC or something similar I presume. 2015-11-16T04:52:18Z Bike: mmhm 2015-11-16T04:52:42Z jasom: ah, but then you couldn't have a dynamic variable as a function parameter? 2015-11-16T04:52:51Z Bike: indeed not. 2015-11-16T04:53:10Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T04:53:28Z Bike: you could have dynamic variables as the default for &key and such, which is how they're used most of the time as parameters anyway, as far as i see 2015-11-16T04:55:14Z erjoalgo: ":" ; exec sbcl --load "$0" --eval "(main \"$0\")" so I don't have to comment out that #! line anymore? 2015-11-16T04:55:45Z pillton: erjoalgo: No! Behold the new age of ":"! 2015-11-16T04:55:57Z pillton thinks of a catchy name. 2015-11-16T04:57:04Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:57:04Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T04:57:38Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-16T04:57:48Z pillton: I better do some work instead of fantasizing about environments. 2015-11-16T05:01:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:01:53Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:03:04Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:04:26Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T05:04:26Z lispyone_ is now known as lispyone 2015-11-16T05:04:28Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-16T05:05:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T05:07:27Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T05:07:32Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T05:07:56Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:11:17Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:11:47Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:15:55Z beach: Bike: Did you see that I decided to not bother re-balancing the splay tree? 2015-11-16T05:16:10Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T05:16:19Z Bike: yes. 2015-11-16T05:16:24Z beach: OK. 2015-11-16T05:16:34Z beach: It's an interesting problem in itself though. 2015-11-16T05:16:42Z beach: But I won't work on it right now. 2015-11-16T05:20:34Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-16T05:23:50Z erjoalgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T05:26:44Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T05:26:51Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:30:32Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:36:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:38:37Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-16T05:40:04Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:40:26Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T05:40:28Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:41:35Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T05:46:36Z j0ni joined #lisp 2015-11-16T05:54:31Z ASau joined #lisp 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2015-11-16T08:50:15Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:52:44Z beetlebum joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:52:44Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:54:58Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:55:00Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T08:55:15Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T08:55:44Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-16T08:55:47Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:56:22Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:56:46Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T08:57:00Z balle joined #lisp 2015-11-16T08:58:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-16T08:59:29Z dilated_dinosaur: i made a thing. feedback welcome https://github.com/ivankocienski/html-views 2015-11-16T09:00:58Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:01:04Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:05:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:05:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:06:30Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-16T09:06:35Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:09:48Z DeadTrickster_: usocket-like libs are really harmful for ecosystem 2015-11-16T09:10:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:10:11Z loke: DeadTrickster: What aspect of it is harmful? 2015-11-16T09:10:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:10:57Z DeadTrickster_: because it uses lowest denominator for example on sbcl bsd sockets way more capable 2015-11-16T09:11:19Z loke: DeadTrickster: What do you suggest is a better solution? A more high-level networking library? 2015-11-16T09:11:32Z DeadTrickster_: iolib, cl-async 2015-11-16T09:11:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:11:54Z DeadTrickster_: iolib looks perfect but it needs win and ssl 2015-11-16T09:12:05Z DeadTrickster_: it supports classical streams and multiplexers 2015-11-16T09:12:15Z beetlebum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T09:12:30Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:14:11Z UFeazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:14:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:15:13Z dilated_dinosaur: hehe. thanks. i am a million times sure that the internals could be tuned 2015-11-16T09:15:50Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:16:40Z loke: Well, iolib has its own share of problems. 2015-11-16T09:16:44Z beetlebum joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:16:48Z loke: It's way too low-level. 2015-11-16T09:17:58Z DeadTrickster_: you are not entirely correct here but on the plus side very easy to google 2015-11-16T09:18:19Z DeadTrickster_: tons of C code can be ported almost as-is 2015-11-16T09:20:22Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:22:58Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:23:43Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T09:24:18Z dilated_dinosaur: the problem with pip squeazing optimisations such as those are; 2015-11-16T09:24:43Z dilated_dinosaur: (in a web server) there are a lot of other areas that are a lot easier to optimize that 2015-11-16T09:25:13Z dilated_dinosaur: don't involve turning your code inside out spaghetti like (i have had this experience with node and event machine) 2015-11-16T09:25:42Z dilated_dinosaur: usually good caching and better database access get you more through put 2015-11-16T09:26:22Z dilated_dinosaur: unless you're google serving millions of requests a second- using one network lib over another isn't worth a lot to your users 2015-11-16T09:26:34Z dilated_dinosaur: and can cause a lot of pain for developers 2015-11-16T09:26:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-16T09:27:37Z 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complexity and where maybe having it in CL also makes sense 2015-11-16T14:33:58Z dim: been resisting up to now 2015-11-16T14:34:11Z dim: but pgloader --regress would make sense 2015-11-16T14:34:18Z thesloth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T14:34:33Z dim: when you ship your CL code as a binary application, how do you usually integrate regression tests capabilities? 2015-11-16T14:34:57Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-16T14:35:30Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T14:35:57Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:36:55Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-16T14:38:11Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-16T14:38:55Z pjb: dim: so far, we don't. 2015-11-16T14:39:45Z pjb: Users are not too concerned by tests. But I imagine if that was generally available, they could learn to use it. 2015-11-16T14:40:22Z pjb: On the other hand, the application crashing on launch is often a good test in itself. 2015-11-16T14:40:56Z dim: well I have a travis-ci setup that runs a bunch of test on each commit 2015-11-16T14:41:15Z dim: all the tests are run from the binary image, which is what I ship in debian, say, so I want to know that works 2015-11-16T14:41:26Z dim: my users usually have no idea what CL is 2015-11-16T14:41:30Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:41:44Z mtl__: speaking of tests, what's the best test framework for doing test driven development in CL? 2015-11-16T14:41:54Z shookees quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T14:42:10Z dim: I've liked 5am when I tried to do TDD 2015-11-16T14:42:12Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:42:12Z pjb: The one you build yourself? 2015-11-16T14:42:39Z pjb: 5am and the others are good to write and run tests, but they're no "framwork for doing TDD". 2015-11-16T14:42:47Z tralala quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T14:42:48Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:42:54Z pjb: I'd image that more like some kind of IDE module. 2015-11-16T14:43:54Z mtl__: I'm new to all this, I figured all I'd really need is a good library for doing unit tests 2015-11-16T14:44:17Z Xach: dim has practical experience 2015-11-16T14:44:43Z mtl__: and i'm sure there's some mess of elisp code around to make it more convenient to do in emacs 2015-11-16T14:44:52Z dim: not much on testing, it's an area where I feel to noob to be opinionated 2015-11-16T14:45:01Z dim: too noob even 2015-11-16T14:45:35Z dim: mtl__: try https://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/ to have a first hand opinion? 2015-11-16T14:46:19Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:48:00Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:48:16Z jinxter joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:49:09Z mtl__: dim: alright, cheers 2015-11-16T14:49:23Z mtl__: i'll play around with it 2015-11-16T14:50:29Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T14:53:27Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-16T14:54:20Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-16T14:57:19Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-16T15:00:46Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, ping 2015-11-16T15:01:49Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:02:07Z s1n4 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:02:37Z s1n4 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T15:03:02Z mtl__: dim: while I haven't gotten around to writing code yet, looking at 5am's documentation, it seems to have everything I need 2015-11-16T15:03:28Z fleaswallow joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:05:03Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:05:59Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:06:42Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:08:56Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:09:17Z dim: yeah it's a nice system 2015-11-16T15:09:36Z dim: it has contenders, too, but it is a very good starting point IMO 2015-11-16T15:09:51Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:10:10Z mtl__: looks like it has macros for setting up stuff like mock objects, which I'm definitely gonna run into 2015-11-16T15:11:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:11:19Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-16T15:11:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:11:36Z warweasle quit (Quit: Lab time.) 2015-11-16T15:12:22Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T15:12:36Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T15:14:17Z gilez_ is now known as gdmalet 2015-11-16T15:14:35Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:14:39Z gdmalet is now known as gilez_ 2015-11-16T15:21:53Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:22:47Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T15:24:10Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:26:23Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T15:27:23Z fantomik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:28:59Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:29:08Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-11-16T15:30:10Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:31:24Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: ping me again later, i have to run now 2015-11-16T15:31:48Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, ok 2015-11-16T15:32:04Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, first, wanted to thank you for patches, and ask for more help ) 2015-11-16T15:32:17Z DeadTrickster: will ping later 2015-11-16T15:32:57Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:35:00Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:37:15Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:37:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:39:09Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:40:23Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:42:45Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:43:36Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:46:43Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:49:55Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T15:51:50Z otjura quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T15:52:44Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:54:19Z lmj quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-16T15:55:54Z kami quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-16T15:57:31Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-16T15:59:38Z br0kenman quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-16T16:00:46Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T16:02:03Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T16:02:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-16T16:03:39Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T16:04:14Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-16T16:04:22Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-16T16:06:04Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Jettison the old bits of C++ and you've got something pretty expressive. 2015-11-16T17:02:41Z dlowe: Not pretty, though. 2015-11-16T17:02:42Z mordocai: Yeah, depending on who you ask everything is high level any more. Even with assembly the processor pretty much does what it wants anymore 2015-11-16T17:03:01Z dlowe: The processor itself is running microcode 2015-11-16T17:03:23Z dlowe: Emulating the CPU that it's supposed to be 2015-11-16T17:03:32Z mordocai: Yeah 2015-11-16T17:03:34Z jfe`: i guess one thing that sticks out in my mind is that, to write portable c/c++ code, you have to concern yourself with things like signedness and type sizes for every variable declaration. 2015-11-16T17:03:51Z arnsholt: The main differentiator between C/C++ and Python/Perl/Whatever is probably manual memory managment versus GC. Although I think modern C++ has made some steps to remove memory managment too 2015-11-16T17:04:15Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:04:15Z jfe`: well, you don't *have* to, but to write portable code you either have it to it when you write it, or when you're fixing a bug that results from not thinking about it. 2015-11-16T17:04:20Z mordocai: jfe`: I'd say most people's definition is if you directly having to mess with memory. Not just memory allocation management, but writing to it etc. 2015-11-16T17:04:32Z mordocai: if you're directly having to mess with memory* 2015-11-16T17:04:40Z dlowe: you don't have to in modern C++ 2015-11-16T17:04:54Z arnsholt: Yeah, and the horrors of buffer overflows and such 2015-11-16T17:05:05Z dlowe: I think lack of bignums in a language is a big differentiator 2015-11-16T17:05:20Z dlowe: especially transparently upgradeable bignums 2015-11-16T17:05:36Z mordocai: jfe`: Yeah, basically what we are getting is dlowe's original answer 'the "levels" are quite fuzzy and relative' 2015-11-16T17:05:51Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:05:54Z dlowe: any corner of a language that can bite you due to byte representation can be considered "low-level" 2015-11-16T17:06:04Z mordocai: jfe`: Talk about development time/turnaround time and bugs instead 2015-11-16T17:06:49Z mordocai: Theoretically lisp/python/whatever should be faster to develop and have less memory related bugs. I haven't really done "modern" C++ though. 2015-11-16T17:08:13Z dlowe: modern C++ is ugly gets you away from the horrors of C. Buffer overflows, pointer arithmetic, and the like. 2015-11-16T17:08:19Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T17:08:19Z pjb: jfe`: high/low level is relative. Any language that IMPOSES on you to consider irrelevant details is a low level language. C++ is. CL can be. 2015-11-16T17:08:25Z jfe`: i think i'm going to write up a "white paper" like my boss suggested, to present to our technical steering committee. maybe i can get some comments and criticisms from you guys before i present it, so i could have even a remote chance of selling high-level languages to them. 2015-11-16T17:08:36Z dlowe: but yeah, it's ugly and still can bite you in weird ways 2015-11-16T17:08:59Z dfcat: historically, the term 'high level' language referred to anything that was not 1:1 corresponding to machine level details all of the time. fortran was 'high level', C was 'high level', etc 2015-11-16T17:09:19Z dfcat: like - 1st use of the term 'high level' referred to those languages 2015-11-16T17:09:29Z Ardeshir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T17:09:32Z dlowe: I don't think pointy-haired types are all that interested in historical terms 2015-11-16T17:09:48Z dfcat: obvously the levels have gotten 'higher' :D though lisp obviously is very high level and very old 2015-11-16T17:10:11Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-16T17:10:21Z dfcat: well.. some of that depends on the PHB culture and how he views language history and specificity of terminology :D 2015-11-16T17:10:35Z dfcat: but yea haha, true, for the general case 2015-11-16T17:11:13Z arnsholt: jfe`: If you're writing for a managerial committee, the points you should focus on are probably not the technical benefits per se 2015-11-16T17:11:17Z pjb: jfe`: in C++, you always have to consider memory management (totally unrelated to any user domain), you have to consider a lot of diverse syntax (totally unrelated to even programming (ie. algorithmics)!), you have to consider how to structure your source (you have to put all the members in the header files along with the class declaration, which is totally unrelated to anything!). This is a very low level programming language. 2015-11-16T17:11:22Z jasom: examples of languages that are often considered higher-level than lisp would be most declarative languages 2015-11-16T17:11:33Z pjb: indeed. 2015-11-16T17:11:33Z arnsholt: Rather things like mordocai's point about turnaround time, bug frequency and such 2015-11-16T17:11:39Z dfcat: it is a lower level high level language, according to the established terminology in the literature 2015-11-16T17:12:04Z arnsholt: The bug frequency point in particular is relatively well-documented in research literature too, I think 2015-11-16T17:12:08Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:12:14Z dfcat: you have to consider memory managment, yes, but you don't have to consider how to manage memory on a particular machine, etc. 2015-11-16T17:12:36Z dfcat: like: on such and such hardware, you set an adress in register Q and then call FETCHMESOMERAM instruction 2015-11-16T17:12:57Z dfcat: the compiler - operating "at higher level", abstracts this away, and does it for you 2015-11-16T17:13:02Z dfcat: compiler and runtime 2015-11-16T17:13:22Z dfcat: of course, it is higher level still not to deal with memory at all 2015-11-16T17:13:26Z jasom: A recent talk by Alexandrescu at a C++ conference was "How to make memory allocators that don't not work" 2015-11-16T17:13:54Z fortitude joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:14:29Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-16T17:14:54Z dfcat: can always make the argument that it's a higher level than "i want to deal with", but that doesn't change the original definition of the term 2015-11-16T17:14:59Z jasom: With lisp worrying about memory allocation is purely a performance concern, not a correctness concern 2015-11-16T17:15:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:15:59Z dfcat: http://foldoc.org/high-level%20language 2015-11-16T17:17:09Z pjb: jfe`: indeed, all language that use ℤ/(2^w)ℤ for floating-point numbers instead of integers are low level programming languages, since they force you to consider using a library for bignums or currencies. 2015-11-16T17:17:21Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:18:36Z pjb: jfe`: http://cliki.net/Performance 2015-11-16T17:18:43Z mordocai: I bet jfe` feels like they opened pandora's box. 2015-11-16T17:18:55Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:19:28Z dfcat: say what you want about your 'preferred' level of language, the concrete definition of 'high level' is well established, and does not mean 'interpreted'/'byte compiled'/'not dealing with memory' 2015-11-16T17:19:28Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:19:55Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:19:59Z dfcat: i definately prefer not dealing with memory when possible - but that doesn't mean writing in C is not high level. 2015-11-16T17:20:16Z dfcat: not high enough level, sure :D 2015-11-16T17:20:23Z pjb: You can use a garbage collector in C or C++, yes. 2015-11-16T17:20:29Z pjb: BoehmGC 2015-11-16T17:20:30Z dfcat: well played :D 2015-11-16T17:21:15Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:21:28Z mordocai: dfcat: Unfortunately, definitions are not frozen in stone. The way people use the term high-level does not match your definition anymore. 2015-11-16T17:21:36Z pjb: it's relative. 2015-11-16T17:21:39Z mordocai: Nor your link's 2015-11-16T17:22:43Z mordocai: That being said, I like dfcat's definition because it makes people actually think rather than just dismissing certain languages as "too low level" 2015-11-16T17:23:26Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2015-11-16T17:25:08Z jasom: dfcat, pjb drmeister has a tool for generating a precise garbage-collector for C++ classes 2015-11-16T17:25:51Z alexshendi joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:26:12Z pjb: now, I have a lisp file that would like to mention as dependency in asdf, but that should not be compiled by asdf. How do I do that in the asd file? 2015-11-16T17:26:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:26:47Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:27:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:27:33Z jasom: pjb: I think you can use the source-file component for it 2015-11-16T17:27:47Z alexshendi: 2015-11-16T17:28:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T17:28:31Z jasom: pjb: actually you want :static-file 2015-11-16T17:28:48Z jasom: pjb: and you'll need to include the .lisp extension since :static-file is not specific to lisp sources 2015-11-16T17:29:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:29:39Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:29:50Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-16T17:30:31Z jasom: pjb: for example ... :components ((:static-file "foo.lisp") (:file "bar" :depends-on (("foo.lisp")))) ... 2015-11-16T17:30:58Z jasom: that will cause bar to be recompiled if foo.lisp changes, but foo.lisp will not be compiled directly by asdf 2015-11-16T17:32:15Z jegaxd26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:32:25Z pjb: Ok. thanks. 2015-11-16T17:32:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:33:36Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-16T17:33:55Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T17:34:29Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:34:42Z jasom had a bit of a hack for a while where he wanted to generate some non-lisp artifacts for a web application, but didn't want to much around with figuring out how to teach asdf to do it, so he had a lisp file that used eval-when and run-program to build them and added the dependencies as static-file 2015-11-16T17:34:44Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:38:02Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:39:10Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:39:40Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:41:19Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:44:38Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:44:38Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-16T17:44:38Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:45:24Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:48:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:49:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:51:11Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T17:51:36Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:52:56Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:53:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-16T17:54:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T17:58:26Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:00:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:02:04Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-16T18:02:51Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:04:01Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:04:02Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T18:05:26Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:07:23Z PuercoPop: Xach: I just saw, orthecreedence just fix'd it. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-16T18:35:48Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:36:10Z myrkraverk: Someone mentioned a garbage collecting tool for C++? Is that the Boehm GC, or something else? 2015-11-16T18:36:35Z Ardeshir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T18:37:39Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-16T18:40:15Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:40:32Z sid_cypher: myrkraverk: yes, BoehmGC was mentioned as argument in favor of C being "high level" enough. 2015-11-16T18:40:47Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2015-11-16T18:41:32Z myrkraverk: Well, it depends on what you're doing. Sometimes using a garbage collector is exactly what you don't want (ex: interfacing hardware directly). 2015-11-16T18:41:42Z sid_cypher: i still dream of using lisp macros on C. if i ever do a C project again, will definitely try ECL, Vacietis and all that. 2015-11-16T18:42:36Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:43:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:45:14Z guna joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:46:07Z sid_cypher: upon further deliberation, though, Forth seems a much better choice for low-level systems stuff. 2015-11-16T18:47:18Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:47:55Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:48:39Z dlowe: sid_cypher: I plan to use dale if it comes up again 2015-11-16T18:48:43Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:48:52Z dlowe: sid_cypher: https://github.com/tomhrr/dale 2015-11-16T18:49:15Z sid_cypher: dlowe: looks great, starred 2015-11-16T18:52:13Z sid_cypher: question to everyone: do you feel that Lisp should be better than Node, Ruby and others at this trendy HTML5 webapp stuff? 2015-11-16T18:52:18Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:53:06Z dlowe: better how? 2015-11-16T18:53:59Z Ardeshir quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T18:54:05Z sid_cypher: i am super determined to write a shiny new website in CL, but so far i found ningle/caveman2/lucerne insufficient for my needs 2015-11-16T18:54:44Z mordocai: insufficient in what ways? 2015-11-16T18:55:01Z sid_cypher: dlowe: better in terms of amount of supporting codebase, ease of entry and productivity 2015-11-16T18:56:01Z sid_cypher: mordocai: first of all, routing. just telling people to use myway (implicitly as part of the package) is not flexible enough. 2015-11-16T18:56:09Z guna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:56:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:56:43Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-16T18:56:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-16T18:56:51Z mordocai: sid_cypher: It is lisp, if you can't figure out how to do things your way you probably aren't trying hard enough. 2015-11-16T18:57:10Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T18:57:11Z sid_cypher: secondly, even PHP has better content updating - just get your new files up and reload. A git push would do nicely. 2015-11-16T18:57:43Z mordocai: I'm thinking you are a troll. php has better content updating than everyone 2015-11-16T18:57:52Z sid_cypher: mordocai: but why would you even need a framework if you have to code around it? :) 2015-11-16T18:58:13Z mordocai: sid_cypher: You don't, hence why i tend not to use frameworks 2015-11-16T18:58:17Z sid_cypher: sorry, not a troll, just weird humour. 2015-11-16T18:58:20Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-16T18:59:12Z mordocai: Seriously though, every framework I have used in any language limits you. That's the point of a framework 2015-11-16T18:59:19Z sid_cypher: mordocai: do you code for web? I'd like to learn from others' experience 2015-11-16T18:59:51Z failproofshark: sid_cypher: well.. there is #lispweb 2015-11-16T19:00:24Z sid_cypher: failproofshark: thank you, will check it out. 2015-11-16T19:00:25Z failproofshark: but as mordocai said, frameworks are supposed to limit you in one way or another 2015-11-16T19:00:27Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:00:31Z failproofshark: no problem 2015-11-16T19:00:32Z mordocai: sid_cypher: I do, not in lisp though. I "get" to program in rails and angular.js 2015-11-16T19:00:38Z mordocai: Both which I have come to dislike overtime 2015-11-16T19:01:01Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:01:06Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:01:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:01:44Z failproofshark: altough maybe not limit, but more so, provide a few restrictions to facilitate development via guidelines 2015-11-16T19:01:48Z sid_cypher: i tried angular and it seemed okay at first glance. Abstractions not holding up? 2015-11-16T19:01:57Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-16T19:02:36Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:02:45Z sid_cypher: exactly, provide guidelines to take away project engineering work and tools to speed you up. 2015-11-16T19:03:40Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-16T19:03:59Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:04:17Z sid_cypher: i've realised that if i don't use any existing framework for my web app, i will essentially end up writing my own. 2015-11-16T19:04:25Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:05:43Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T19:05:46Z pjb: sid_cypher: you might want to try drupal. 2015-11-16T19:05:52Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:06:33Z dlowe: huh. esrap is refusing to compile on this machine, latest sbcl 2015-11-16T19:06:49Z dlowe: "Illegal function call"? 2015-11-16T19:06:57Z sid_cypher: pjb: haha it's still php. 2015-11-16T19:07:00Z dwchandler: aside from lisp, elixir+phoenix might be nice 2015-11-16T19:07:36Z pjb: sid_cypher: perhaps, but it is definitely sufficient for your needs. 2015-11-16T19:07:45Z pjb: (and those of millions of other webmasters). 2015-11-16T19:07:52Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:08:14Z pjb: sid_cypher: besides, a web site written in PHP doesn't prevent you to write parts in CL. 2015-11-16T19:09:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:10:04Z sid_cypher: pjb: unfortunately, I have an irrational need to do the entire damn thing in Lisp :) 2015-11-16T19:10:12Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:10:35Z sid_cypher: ended up doing this: https://github.com/sid-cypher/braculon 2015-11-16T19:11:04Z mordocai: Yeah, I was going to say you might just want to build up on clack 2015-11-16T19:11:35Z sid_cypher: it's not yet in working condition, so don't bother doing anything with it until i come back with news :) 2015-11-16T19:14:21Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:15:49Z clarkema: I'm trying to use Drakma to access an HTTPS endpoint in Lispworks, but when I do I get: Error: SSL failure in #: error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert handshake failure. The code works fine in other Lisps; presumably because Drakma uses CL+SSL in most places, but COMM on LW. Anyone else seen this? I assume its due to LW being compiled against an out-of-date SSL lib 2015-11-16T19:16:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:17:00Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:18:15Z dlowe: I found the problem with esrap 2015-11-16T19:18:25Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:18:32Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:20:28Z Xach: clarkema: that sounds plausible...you might be able to appeal for help on the lisp-hug list, which is extremely helpful 2015-11-16T19:21:40Z clarkema: Xach: I'll give that a shot, thanks. It seems strange I'd be the first, if that is the cause! 2015-11-16T19:22:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:22:11Z Xach: clarkema: the lisp community offers many opportunities to be a pioneer in many respects 2015-11-16T19:22:49Z gaya- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:22:56Z tyrannozarus001 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:24:13Z sid_cypher: shia-labeouf-just-do-it.mp4 2015-11-16T19:25:04Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:26:14Z clarkema: Xach: heh, that's a very positive way of looking at it! 2015-11-16T19:29:37Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:30:25Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:31:20Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:31:51Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T19:31:51Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-16T19:33:21Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:34:15Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:36:48Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:37:20Z anddam left #lisp 2015-11-16T19:44:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:46:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:48:46Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:49:46Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:52:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:55:10Z rvchangue quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:55:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:55:35Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:56:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:56:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:57:08Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T19:57:14Z ggole quit 2015-11-16T19:57:47Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:57:47Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:58:10Z lvh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-16T19:58:27Z lvh joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:58:44Z alexshendi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-16T19:59:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T19:59:08Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T20:05:18Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:05:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:06:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:06:54Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-16T20:07:54Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-16T20:08:07Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:10:20Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I have looked at the hyperspec and it is quite clear as far as equalp/eql distinction goes. 2015-11-16T20:41:46Z pjb: hydan: (defstruct point x y) #| --> point |# (let ((p (make-point :x 1 :y 2))) (setf (point-x (first (copy-seq (list p)))) 0) p) #| --> #S(point :x 0 :y 2) |# 2015-11-16T20:42:42Z pjb: On the other hand, (let* ((p (make-point :x 1 :y 2)) (l (list p))) (setf (first (copy-seq l)) nil) (values l (eq (first l) p))) #| --> (#S(point :x 1 :y 2)) ; t |# 2015-11-16T20:43:48Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-16T20:44:25Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:44:33Z clique joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:44:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:44:47Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-16T20:44:56Z pjb: hydan: that said, while those functions don't make explicit copies, and therefore (every (function eql) s (copy-seq s)), characters and numbers can still be copied ("behind the curtain"), so you won't have (every (function eq) s (copy-seq s)). 2015-11-16T20:45:22Z pjb: you won't have necessarily that. 2015-11-16T20:45:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T20:49:56Z pjb: hydan: more generally, in lisp, arguments are passed by value. Only, almost all lisp values are actually references. Only the immutable values number and character may be actual values (but they can still be references). In the case where immutable values (numbers and characters) are actual values, when passed by value as parameter, you can get copies (this is what passing by value meaans: you get a copy of the value). So obviously 2015-11-16T20:49:57Z pjb: when copying it from the original sequence to the new sequence, you might get a different (not eq) immutable value object, or not, depending on the implementation. 2015-11-16T20:51:06Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-16T20:51:21Z pjb: But apart from this specific case on specific potential implementations (or for specific values of those types too, eg. bignums can be treated differently from fixnums), lisp objects are referenced, and when passed as argument, you get the parameter bound to references to the same lisp objects as the arguments. 2015-11-16T20:52:04Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Is there a way to access the structure slots via the name of the slot? 2015-11-17T03:05:15Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:05:35Z erjoalgo: why is it bad to mix &optional and &key 2015-11-17T03:05:54Z Bike: spyrosoft: not for a structure, technically. why can't you use its accessors? 2015-11-17T03:05:57Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T03:06:02Z Bike: erjoalgo: it is sort of confusing. 2015-11-17T03:06:08Z erjoalgo: ok 2015-11-17T03:06:13Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:07:16Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-17T03:07:17Z arnsholt: Also, if you mix them, you can't leave out the "optional" parameters if you want to pass a named 2015-11-17T03:08:02Z spyrosoft: Bike: It's out of scope. 2015-11-17T03:08:32Z Bike: ...what? can you even define non-global accessors? 2015-11-17T03:08:56Z spyrosoft: Oh, maybe I need to specify the package. 2015-11-17T03:09:10Z Bike: probably 2015-11-17T03:09:38Z spyrosoft: Hmm. I'm not doing this right. 2015-11-17T03:09:48Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:09:50Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:10:12Z spyrosoft: "Lock on package SB-IMPL violated when interning GET-EXPR while in package COMMON-LISP-USER" 2015-11-17T03:10:18Z Bike: it's difficult to make good suggestions with such little context. 2015-11-17T03:10:18Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:10:24Z Bike: Wow, what on earth are you doing. 2015-11-17T03:11:07Z spyrosoft: I'll post it on pastebin, one second. 2015-11-17T03:12:05Z loke: he probably typed 'sb-impl::get-expr 2015-11-17T03:12:40Z Bike: well, yes. 2015-11-17T03:13:53Z spyrosoft: http://paste.lisp.org/+3F7D 2015-11-17T03:14:27Z Bike: oh, that fucking backquote thing. 2015-11-17T03:14:32Z spyrosoft: Flatten is failing on unquote, I'm trying to add a condition to access the contents of the structure. 2015-11-17T03:14:39Z loke: And... yes. That's exactly what he did 2015-11-17T03:14:55Z Bike: Where'd you get "sb-impl::get-expr" from, exactly? 2015-11-17T03:14:57Z loke: spyrosoft: You can't do that. 2015-11-17T03:15:23Z loke: Not only are you accessing sb-impl which yous hould never do, you actually try to use its INTERNAL symbols. 2015-11-17T03:15:39Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:15:58Z spyrosoft: (print (type-of x)) 2015-11-17T03:16:03Z loke: spyrosoft: Basically, some time ago SBCL changed its implementation of backquote and none of that stuff will work anymore. 2015-11-17T03:16:06Z Bike: not even the right ones. you shouldn't guess with these things, it's comma-expr 2015-11-17T03:16:11Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:16:19Z Fleurety quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:16:34Z spyrosoft: Thanks. I figured there was a better, more general type. 2015-11-17T03:16:59Z loke: I've been a Lisper for many years and I have _never_ encountered the need to use a flatten function. I don't understand why it seems to be such a favourite with beginners. 2015-11-17T03:17:10Z Bike: type...? 2015-11-17T03:17:32Z Uptime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:17:38Z Bike: struct accessors are defaultly named [structname]-[slotname], you just guessed that it was "get" for some reason. 2015-11-17T03:17:59Z spyrosoft: I see. 2015-11-17T03:18:02Z Bike: also this won't work. like, comma splices, for one. 2015-11-17T03:18:12Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-17T03:18:13Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:18:19Z HDurer__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:18:19Z angavrilov_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:18:39Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:18:52Z Bike: i have a library using an sb-int function, i've had to fix it like three times as they do things to their internal APIs. don't do it 2015-11-17T03:18:59Z failproofshark quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:19:23Z spyrosoft: Ok. I will never do that again. 2015-11-17T03:19:50Z Bike: standardswise, implementations are allowed to do basically whatever they want with backquote, just so you know 2015-11-17T03:19:59Z loke: It's all from Let over Lambda. I consider that book to be more like performance art than actual programming advice. 2015-11-17T03:20:19Z Bike: let over lambda assumes they'll use a particular implementation. not good 2015-11-17T03:20:43Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:21:08Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:21:17Z spyrosoft: defmacro! seems so useful. It's terribly taunting. 2015-11-17T03:21:43Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:22:26Z spyrosoft: Thank you for your advice, though 2015-11-17T03:22:31Z Bike: what's it do again? some with-gensyms thing? 2015-11-17T03:22:40Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:23:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:23:03Z spyrosoft: g! prefixed variables automatically become gensyms, and o! prefixed variables are evaluated once-only, and then become gensyms. 2015-11-17T03:23:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:23:53Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:24:12Z Bike: you could just use once-only and/or with-gensyms. or write your own defmacro replacement that requires you to list which variables are once-only or gensyms ahead of time instead of introducing pseudosyntax. 2015-11-17T03:24:45Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:25:22Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:25:52Z spyrosoft: Yeah. That would work. And it's near impossible to figure out what the g! and o! variables are doing for everyone else looking at the code. 2015-11-17T03:26:23Z Bike: it seems very perl. though i haven't read the book. 2015-11-17T03:26:27Z pillton: Is this practice of g! and o! used in Let Over Lambda? 2015-11-17T03:26:32Z Bike: well, props on you for actually looking into the internals, though. 2015-11-17T03:26:34Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:26:37Z spyrosoft: Yes. Everywhere. 2015-11-17T03:26:54Z spyrosoft: Thanks, Bike 2015-11-17T03:27:34Z HDurer_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:27:37Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:27:41Z loke: pillton: Yes, everywhere 2015-11-17T03:27:43Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:28:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:28:42Z pillton: I've never been tempted to do stuff like that. 2015-11-17T03:29:07Z pillton is happy in his local minima. 2015-11-17T03:29:09Z loke: Hello pillton, by the way. 2015-11-17T03:29:10Z loke: http://www.clker.com/cliparts/8/4/9/4/1333123003181289521pill%20guy-hi.png 2015-11-17T03:29:28Z pillton: haha 2015-11-17T03:30:34Z Guest99461 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:30:35Z Guest99461: . 2015-11-17T03:30:41Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:31:12Z wolf_mozart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:31:14Z Bike: you're in multiple minima? how quantum of u 2015-11-17T03:32:06Z pillton: There are many virtual realities. Each of me is unique. 2015-11-17T03:32:27Z loke: pillton: That said, how many _actual_ realities are you in? 2015-11-17T03:32:42Z pillton: 3 at the moment. 2015-11-17T03:32:49Z loke: pillton: oh. awesome 2015-11-17T03:34:09Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:38:05Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:40:42Z pillton: I often wonder how many the mind can handle. 2015-11-17T03:41:39Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:43:39Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:43:44Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:43:52Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:44:36Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:45:04Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:45:26Z loke: pillton: Are you in a superposition of these realities? 2015-11-17T03:45:45Z loke: (because if you are, then we must also be in the same superposition since I'm interactive with you) 2015-11-17T03:45:48Z loke: interacting 2015-11-17T03:46:10Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:47:26Z pillton: Every time I meet with management I wonder if I am in reality. 2015-11-17T03:48:19Z myrkraverk: I'm fairly certain that I live in the twilight zone these days. 2015-11-17T03:48:37Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:49:25Z jegaxd26` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:49:48Z pillton: I think they are more widely known as the Northern Lights. 2015-11-17T03:52:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:52:58Z loke: I know Masataro Asai is on this channel sometimes. Anyone remember his nickname" guicho? 2015-11-17T03:54:23Z jegaxd26` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T03:56:00Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:56:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T03:58:23Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T03:58:43Z Uptime quit (Quit: :}) 2015-11-17T04:00:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:00:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:01:07Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:01:43Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:02:44Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:03:13Z sjl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T04:03:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:05:19Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:05:59Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:06:03Z lisper29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T04:07:49Z myrkraverk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T04:08:13Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:10:35Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:11:28Z erjoalgo: why does this meaningless code give me a warning? (defun asdas ()(ppcre:register-groups-bind (return-val) ("asd" "asd" ) (parse-integer return-val))) 2015-11-17T04:11:47Z erjoalgo: ; caught STYLE-WARNING:; This is not a STRING:; NIL? 2015-11-17T04:11:48Z erjoalgo: 2015-11-17T04:12:11Z Zhivago: Well, it's right -- nil is not a string. 2015-11-17T04:12:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:12:53Z Zhivago: What is the type of return-val? 2015-11-17T04:14:13Z Bike: string 2015-11-17T04:14:20Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T04:15:57Z erjoalgo: (defun asdas ()(ppcre:register-groups-bind (return-val) ("(1234)" "1234" ) (parse-integer return-val))) 2015-11-17T04:16:04Z erjoalgo: still warning 2015-11-17T04:16:17Z Bike: yeah, it's some default. 2015-11-17T04:16:25Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:17:35Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:17:48Z Bike: there's a line that binds return-val to (if thingthatsalwaystrue string nil), looks like 2015-11-17T04:18:18Z Bike: and then you call parse-integer on it, which will fail on nil, of course 2015-11-17T04:19:48Z erjoalgo: is there a declaration that will muffle this warning? i don't even understand why 2015-11-17T04:19:55Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:20:31Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:24:10Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:24:26Z Bike: well, basically, it's possible that a regex can match without matching all groups, so a group can be NIL in the code. and calling parse-integer on nil will fail. 2015-11-17T04:26:27Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:26:33Z Bike: if you do (register-groups-bind ((#'parse-integer return-val)) whatever) you won't get a style warning, if that helps. 2015-11-17T04:26:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-17T04:27:06Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-17T04:28:35Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:28:50Z Bike: you could also do, though i don't recommend it, (r-g-b (return-val) (...) (declare #+sbcl(sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-int:type-style-warning)) ...), i guess. 2015-11-17T04:30:57Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-17T04:31:31Z lisse quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T04:31:44Z pillton: (when return-val (parse-integer return-val)) perhaps? 2015-11-17T04:32:17Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-17T04:32:44Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:33:30Z Bike: so i guess i should have set the type of return-val is (or string null), whatevs, yolo 2015-11-17T04:33:36Z pillton: Ah I see the issue. 2015-11-17T04:35:39Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:36:33Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T04:38:38Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T04:38:44Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-17T08:06:42Z flip214: knobo1: outside tools like "lsof" might be a good bet 2015-11-17T08:07:26Z knobo1: flip214: is there a way to close files that has not been closed correctly? 2015-11-17T08:08:08Z Shinmera: You can forcefully close them with gdb. 2015-11-17T08:08:48Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:09:32Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T08:10:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:12:13Z knobo1: it works 2015-11-17T08:12:15Z flip214: knobo1: "(sb-unix:close FD)" should work, too 2015-11-17T08:12:27Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:13:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:15:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:17:38Z knobo1: How can I best trace my code to find the code that does not close the filedescriptor? 2015-11-17T08:19:02Z flip214: knobo1: look for calls to OPEN .... if you're using WITH-OPEN-FILE you wouldn't leak filedescriptors. 2015-11-17T08:19:35Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:20:43Z Shinmera: flip214: Unless you're never unwinding. 2015-11-17T08:21:12Z ASau``` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:23:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:25:54Z Niac_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T08:26:23Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:27:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:28:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:29:25Z knobo1: Killed 10000 fds with lsof | awk '/filename/..etc' | gdb -p N 2015-11-17T08:29:52Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:31:14Z flip214: (DOTIMES (i 100000) (sb-unix:close i)) 2015-11-17T08:32:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:33:16Z knobo1: flip214: but there is no "|grep filename" with sb-unix 2015-11-17T08:33:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:34:10Z flip214: knobo1: what would you need that for? if you'd need to close only handles to *one* file, you could verify the inode and device numbers (via fstat). 2015-11-17T08:34:35Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:35:06Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:36:46Z knobo1: flip214: but sb-unix does not take a number 2015-11-17T08:36:50Z knobo1: it takes a stream 2015-11-17T08:37:18Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:38:03Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:38:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:39:24Z knobo1: sb-unix::unix-close 2015-11-17T08:42:05Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T08:42:05Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T08:42:55Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:43:07Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T08:45:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:46:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:49:22Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:52:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:53:01Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:56:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:57:15Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:57:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T08:58:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-17T08:58:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:02:37Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-11-17T09:05:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:08:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:11:25Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:13:37Z C4K3 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:13:46Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:16:52Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:18:49Z Bahman_ quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-17T09:20:12Z Baggers: I've been looking at Christoph Rhodes' 'Unportable but fun'[0] presentation. in the conclusions he mentioed that sbcl extensions allow "hooking into type derivation". I've looked through the 'sbcl manual' and 'sbcl internals' but could not find what this phrase was talking about. Anyone got any ideas? [0] http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2009/unportable.pdf 2015-11-17T09:21:22Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:23:00Z scymtym: Baggers: asking Xof directly or asking in #sbcl may work better 2015-11-17T09:23:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:23:47Z Baggers: scymtym: ace, will do 2015-11-17T09:24:07Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:24:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T09:26:58Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:28:01Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:28:21Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:28:37Z sword```` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:29:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:30:02Z grouzen_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:30:53Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:30:53Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T09:30:53Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:31:33Z mood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T09:32:03Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-17T09:32:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:33:16Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T09:33:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:35:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:36:14Z mood joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:38:21Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-17T09:39:11Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:39:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:40:15Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-17T09:43:21Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:43:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:46:03Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-17T09:47:01Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What do you think about "Internet of Things" concept? 2015-11-17T11:33:38Z blubjr: whats that 2015-11-17T11:33:50Z varjag: sensor networks of 2015 2015-11-17T11:34:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:34:17Z whoami_: blubjr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_Things 2015-11-17T11:34:31Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:34:59Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:35:01Z whoami_: is it evil or good? 2015-11-17T11:35:02Z varjag: whoami_: give it another 10 years 2015-11-17T11:35:06Z varjag: it's not there yet 2015-11-17T11:36:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:37:23Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:37:47Z whoami_: is "Internet of Things" evil of good? 2015-11-17T11:37:54Z whoami_: of/or/ 2015-11-17T11:39:01Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:39:10Z dlowe: way to plunge technology into a manichean dichotomy 2015-11-17T11:39:25Z dlowe: it's half-assed like everything else people make 2015-11-17T11:40:16Z whoami_: dlowe: not including CL :) 2015-11-17T11:40:21Z jackdaniel: funny coincidence, tomorrow I attend a conference about IoT :) 2015-11-17T11:40:37Z dlowe: CL is great, but it is also half-assed :p 2015-11-17T11:40:56Z whoami_: jackdaniel: what do you think about IoT? 2015-11-17T11:41:26Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:41:45Z jackdaniel: whoami_: it may be used for good and bad things. Like every technology. It's not useless though if you ask about that (in my opinion of course) 2015-11-17T11:43:23Z jackdaniel: we already live in the internet of things btw. WiFi printer? Anyone? Or NAS? Headless mpd server? 2015-11-17T11:43:43Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:44:04Z jackdaniel: but it's waay offtopic ;D 2015-11-17T11:44:29Z whoami_: jackdaniel: I ask because Lispers are too smart 2015-11-17T11:44:39Z jackdaniel: for their own good? 2015-11-17T11:44:58Z whoami_: jackdaniel: they are just smart 2015-11-17T11:45:15Z whoami_: jackdaniel: not like every 2015-11-17T11:47:00Z jackdaniel: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/CAVE/projects/self_powered_camera/ <- this is the future of IoT imho 2015-11-17T11:47:07Z jackdaniel: I mean -such class of the devices 2015-11-17T11:48:49Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:48:54Z whoami_: bad 2015-11-17T11:49:05Z jackdaniel: hm? 2015-11-17T11:49:23Z whoami_: bad thing :) 2015-11-17T11:49:32Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:50:00Z whoami_: way to total control 2015-11-17T11:50:22Z Ober quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:50:23Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T11:50:28Z jackdaniel doesn't understand 2015-11-17T11:50:59Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:51:05Z Ober joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:54:03Z dlowe: The lispers in #lispcafe are also smart 2015-11-17T11:54:11Z jegaxd26 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:54:22Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:54:31Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:54:37Z whoami_: dlowe: so I'll ask them too :) 2015-11-17T11:56:23Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:56:35Z dlowe: ... and it's not off-topic there :p 2015-11-17T11:56:50Z jackdaniel: ↑ :-) 2015-11-17T11:56:57Z dlowe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-11-17T11:57:29Z splittist: Splittist jr likes Scratch, but he sees all my lisp books on the shelf so he knows lisp is cooler. I would like to reinforce that prejudice, but I'm wondering what is the easiest way for him to get a cool Scratch experience (sprites! sounds!) from lisp. 2015-11-17T11:57:44Z splittist tries to get something vaguely on topic going... 2015-11-17T11:57:50Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:57:51Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:58:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T11:59:34Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T11:59:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:01:32Z mtl__: splittist: i've been giving that some minor thought 2015-11-17T12:01:53Z mtl__: having a block generated lisp would certainly be nice 2015-11-17T12:02:05Z mtl__: but I'm not sure how you would do macros 2015-11-17T12:02:35Z mtl__: and having macros is half the point if you wanna do lisp 2015-11-17T12:02:58Z Xof: splittist jr might be a little early in the journey for code that writes code 2015-11-17T12:03:14Z splittist: There was blocky.io, but it seems to have died a death. By Scratch experience I don't mean click-and-drag, I mean instant feedback that dances and sings. 2015-11-17T12:03:40Z mtl__: splittist: have you heard of light table? 2015-11-17T12:03:46Z splittist: I was even thinking about a lisp to Scratch compiler... 2015-11-17T12:04:10Z mtl__: it's a clojure IDE that has some interesting ideas 2015-11-17T12:04:19Z mtl__: I'm sure someone added CL support to it by now 2015-11-17T12:05:48Z Xof: splittist: turtle graphics / http://www.cliki.net/logo-to-lisp 2015-11-17T12:06:39Z Xof: of course all the links are broken :-( 2015-11-17T12:06:44Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:07:06Z mtl__: yeah, cliki seems to have that problem way too often 2015-11-17T12:07:15Z jackdaniel: it's the problem of the target sites 2015-11-17T12:07:50Z jackdaniel: that they move links (and yes, I did the same sin several times until I realized it's bad) 2015-11-17T12:10:12Z whoami_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-17T12:14:32Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:18:09Z splittist: Snap! seems to be step in the lisp direction: http://snap.berkeley.edu/ (call/cc.. ) 2015-11-17T12:18:41Z jdz: splittist: call/cc should keep splittist jr busy for a while :) 2015-11-17T12:19:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T12:19:14Z mtl__: I still don't quite understand call/cc 2015-11-17T12:19:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:19:23Z mtl__: but I don't really use scheme anyway 2015-11-17T12:19:56Z jdz: mtl__: it's like time travel that actually works 2015-11-17T12:21:09Z Shinmera: splittist: My desired end result of the Qtools ecosystem efforts is to make it easy as pie to write and work with UI stuff, including graphical things. 2015-11-17T12:21:14Z peppermachete quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:21:49Z Shinmera: Obviously that's a ways away, but.. progress is being made. I guess. Got my improved colour picker done today. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpjMg== 2015-11-17T12:21:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:21:59Z fraya left #lisp 2015-11-17T12:24:10Z mtl__: splittist: that seems like exactly what I've been looking for 2015-11-17T12:24:10Z splittist: Shinmera: your work is much appreciated. One day I'll make the time to work out why qt-libs didn't work for me. 2015-11-17T12:24:49Z mtl__: (snap, that is) 2015-11-17T12:24:56Z Shinmera: One day all of humanities problems will be solved 2015-11-17T12:27:43Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:28:28Z Shinmera: *humanity's 2015-11-17T12:32:50Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:33:08Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:33:08Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T12:33:08Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:37:51Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:37:53Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:39:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T12:42:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:42:08Z dwchandler: dang, not long ago I ran across a scheme setup (racket, iirc) that had a DSL for doing images and such, meant for teaching children 2015-11-17T12:42:11Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:42:19Z dwchandler: I can't recall the name now :/ 2015-11-17T12:42:21Z sid_cypher: hopefully not by terminating humanity or bringing it to a desireless state 2015-11-17T12:42:34Z sid_cypher: although that second one is very Zen 2015-11-17T12:43:06Z dwchandler: SO it was all very cute and fun, but had full scheme under the hood waiting to be found 2015-11-17T12:43:15Z Shinmera: sid_cypher: It's the most likely solution, but I can't claim to know the future. 2015-11-17T12:43:32Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:44:02Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: the best way to know future is to take active part in shaping it, so let's just get to it :) 2015-11-17T12:46:03Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:46:29Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:46:38Z Shinmera: Well I don't care about either of those things, so I jut do what I like. It being beneficial generally is mostly coincidental 2015-11-17T12:48:50Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:49:06Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:49:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:49:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T12:50:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:50:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T12:51:21Z sid_cypher: i see talks of call/cc in the logs, how it is a popular scheme thing. aren't continuations like GOTOS that also restore context? 2015-11-17T12:57:46Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T12:58:30Z blubjr: and theyre first class objects 2015-11-17T12:58:48Z Shinmera: Continuations allow you to pause execution at one point, returning you an object that you can call later to resume execution. 2015-11-17T12:59:20Z sid_cypher: thank you. i was just brushing up on that. 2015-11-17T12:59:50Z sid_cypher: there are many explanations on what they are, but little on what they're good for) 2015-11-17T13:03:48Z cmpitg is now known as cmpitg|zZzZz 2015-11-17T13:03:52Z cmpitg|zZzZz is now known as cmpitg 2015-11-17T13:05:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:06:22Z harish__ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:06:33Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:06:49Z sid_cypher: oh that's a nice example of call/cc usefulness http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbortRetryIgnore 2015-11-17T13:08:25Z sid_cypher: i do fondly remember my ms-dos childhood, and condition system is obviously a great thing 2015-11-17T13:09:18Z raphaelsss joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:12:26Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:12:29Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:13:18Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:13:28Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:13:33Z Xach: varjag: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-11-16/failure-report/cl-jpeg.html#cl-jpeg -- do you know what might be up? 2015-11-17T13:14:27Z psy_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T13:17:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:18:26Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:18:35Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:19:40Z sid_cypher: that's a whole lot of identical notes 2015-11-17T13:20:05Z Xach: the important bit is highlighted in red 2015-11-17T13:21:13Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:21:16Z sid_cypher: Xach: "caught warning" in the middle or uiop error condition at the end? 2015-11-17T13:21:30Z Xach: both are important, the first moreso 2015-11-17T13:22:22Z varjag: Xach: looking into it.. 2015-11-17T13:23:27Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:24:29Z kanielis joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:25:31Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:25:47Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:26:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:27:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:27:27Z Xof: Shinmera: since you're talking about colours, maybe I should mention my stealth "spare time" (ha ha ha) project 2015-11-17T13:27:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:27:46Z sid_cypher: ok, continuations are very cool, but apparently CPS relies on TCO to avoid blowing up stack or otherwise memory 2015-11-17T13:27:50Z Xof: https://github.com/csrhodes/colours 2015-11-17T13:27:52Z splittist: s/mention/uncloak/ 2015-11-17T13:28:18Z sid_cypher: Xach: aww, no readme? 2015-11-17T13:28:23Z kanielis quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-17T13:28:29Z Xach: sid_cypher: for what? 2015-11-17T13:28:33Z Shinmera: Xof: Oh, neato. 2015-11-17T13:28:41Z sid_cypher: Xach: sorry, i meant Xof. stupid autocomplete 2015-11-17T13:28:55Z Shinmera: Xof: I'm mostly using Qt's internal colour class because that's what all the other painting operations need, but I'll have a look. Thanks! 2015-11-17T13:29:17Z PHP_Virtuoso quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-17T13:29:23Z Xof: now I am afraid that I have messed up my breadth-first or depth-first search implementations :-) 2015-11-17T13:30:12Z Xof: sid_cypher: yeah. Look in examples.lisp and operations.lisp 2015-11-17T13:31:03Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T13:31:35Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:31:46Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:31:52Z sid_cypher: Xof: ok, i see, thanks. BTW, I like your commit-captioning style) 2015-11-17T13:32:10Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T13:32:23Z Xof: yeah, looking at that page suggests that I am seriously unbalanced 2015-11-17T13:32:36Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:33:48Z Xof: the one-sentence README is something like: "tolerably fast while still flexible colour space calculations" 2015-11-17T13:34:03Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:34:29Z sid_cypher: hey, mine are like that too. And using superscript/subscript unicode digits in symbols is brilliant, too)) 2015-11-17T13:39:23Z jdz: Xof: i wonder how this works: https://github.com/csrhodes/colours/blob/master/colours.lisp#L56-L74 2015-11-17T13:39:36Z Xof: heh 2015-11-17T13:39:38Z Xof: that doesn't 2015-11-17T13:39:59Z Xof: that whole file is a remnant, sorry 2015-11-17T13:40:10Z Xach: now that is DSL 2015-11-17T13:40:26Z raphaelssss joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:43:15Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T13:43:20Z raphaelsss quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:43:26Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:43:39Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:43:39Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T13:43:39Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:43:50Z varjag: damn, should install 1.3.0.. 2015-11-17T13:45:19Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:45:21Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:45:38Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:50:39Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:52:03Z Xach: varjag: I am using the "latest" from git. The version is at the top of the report. 2015-11-17T13:52:08Z Xach: I am actually a few commits behind 2015-11-17T13:55:50Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T13:57:10Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-17T13:59:33Z varjag: ok 2015-11-17T13:59:58Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T14:00:40Z varjag: i'll open a git issue to keep track of it 2015-11-17T14:01:05Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:01:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-17T14:01:41Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:01:46Z s00pcan_ is now known as s00pcan 2015-11-17T14:02:08Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T14:02:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:03:35Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Certain very young children, and our colleague Dan Garcia, like this, but if you are such a child you should bear in mind that driving your parents or teachers crazy will result in you not being allowed to use Snap!. " 2015-11-17T14:21:34Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T14:21:58Z splittist: (Also: macros, prototype OOP, continuation passing style) 2015-11-17T14:22:11Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:22:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:22:53Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:23:38Z synchromesh left #lisp 2015-11-17T14:24:27Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:26:05Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:26:07Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T14:29:35Z norfumpit: say, why does this fail me - http://paste.lisp.org/display/159705 2015-11-17T14:29:41Z norfumpit: says swank-loader package does not exist 2015-11-17T14:30:43Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:30:59Z jackdaniel: norfumpit: because it's not there yet when you read it 2015-11-17T14:31:28Z jackdaniel: you may put stuff accessing swank package in a separate file and load it 2015-11-17T14:31:41Z norfumpit: oh, oh, i see 2015-11-17T14:31:42Z norfumpit: thanks 2015-11-17T14:32:27Z jackdaniel: you may also eval code which is read from string 2015-11-17T14:32:36Z norfumpit: any way to do it in file? something like emacs' with-eval-after-load 2015-11-17T14:32:38Z jackdaniel: (eval (read-from-string "…")) 2015-11-17T14:32:43Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2015-11-17T14:33:06Z norfumpit: something other than putting the code in a string 2015-11-17T14:33:21Z jackdaniel: only writing a reader macro 2015-11-17T14:33:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:34:08Z jackdaniel: which transforms read stuff into (eval (read-from-string "…")) ;) 2015-11-17T14:34:43Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-17T14:35:11Z jackdaniel: why don't you load the swank with asd? 2015-11-17T14:35:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:35:15Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T14:35:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T14:37:23Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:37:49Z axe: hi guys so today i saw the light, and am now a lisp convert 2015-11-17T14:38:08Z jackdaniel: it's a train :p 2015-11-17T14:38:16Z axe: are there any games made in lisp thesedays? 2015-11-17T14:38:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T14:38:31Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:38:39Z jackdaniel: axe: ask on #lispgames, people there will be more likely to know 2015-11-17T14:38:49Z axe: oh cool thats a thing 2015-11-17T14:39:24Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:41:02Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:41:41Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-17T14:42:00Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:44:25Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T14:46:32Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:48:48Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:54:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T14:57:05Z Bike: norfumpit: you can also do something like replacing (swank-loader:init) with (funcall (find-symbol "INIT" "SWANK-LOADER")) 2015-11-17T14:57:35Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:57:46Z Bike: delayed symbols wouldn't be a bad reader macro, really 2015-11-17T14:58:31Z raphaelssss quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T14:58:58Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:59:03Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T14:59:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:03:10Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:03:59Z halfcrazy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:04:59Z halfcrazy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:05:35Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:06:26Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2015-11-17T15:06:50Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:07:21Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:08:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:08:19Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T15:08:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:08:43Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:10:03Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:10:10Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:10:27Z gilez_ is now known as Guest59908 2015-11-17T15:10:35Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:13:43Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:15:46Z foom2 is now known as foom 2015-11-17T15:16:33Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:16:35Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:20:35Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:26:42Z mea-culp` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:28:48Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:28:52Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:28:55Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:29:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:34:39Z housel` is now known as housel 2015-11-17T15:34:40Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:39:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:39:49Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:41:11Z bogwonch quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-17T15:41:37Z aerique quit (Quit: ...) 2015-11-17T15:42:00Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:42:30Z axe: so parenthesis in lisp.. 2015-11-17T15:42:57Z axe: if you had a projectional editor, you wouldnt need them, i guess? 2015-11-17T15:43:02Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:43:10Z jdz: we love our parenthesis 2015-11-17T15:43:31Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:44:08Z jdz: and most of us use paredit, which makes emacs feel like a real structural editor 2015-11-17T15:44:18Z jdz: almost 2015-11-17T15:44:28Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:44:41Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:44:54Z splittist: axe: but don't let us dissuade you from producing a fabulous projectional editor 2015-11-17T15:45:12Z jfe`: i like my code how i like my women: curvy on all sides. 2015-11-17T15:45:22Z dwchandler: or... if you had a projectional editor you could leave the parens and not deal with them editing-wise 2015-11-17T15:45:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:45:55Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T15:45:55Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:45:59Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:46:10Z blubjr: lisp....whats the deal with the brackets 2015-11-17T15:47:03Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:47:05Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:47:35Z axe: im looking at this http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html 2015-11-17T15:47:38Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:48:05Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-11-17T15:48:28Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:48:35Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-11-17T15:49:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:49:19Z axe: anyone ever used a projectional editor for lisp? i might make one but ... not sure. is the trade off worth it 2015-11-17T15:50:46Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:50:50Z JuanDaugherty: for general cl? what representation did you have in mind? 2015-11-17T15:51:17Z splittist: blubjr: constituent characters reserved for use by the programmer. Why? 2015-11-17T15:51:36Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:52:32Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T15:52:53Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:53:11Z blubjr: joke 2015-11-17T15:53:23Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:53:29Z et8: anyone here using NixOS? 2015-11-17T15:53:35Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:53:44Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:54:14Z axe: JuanDaugherty i dont understand the question :) 2015-11-17T15:54:17Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-17T15:54:19Z hitecnologys: et8: I did a few times but I don't see how that's related to Lisp. 2015-11-17T15:54:52Z JuanDaugherty: axe, a projectional editor calls for a representation to edit to produce backend sources 2015-11-17T15:55:15Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-17T15:55:21Z et8: hitecnologys: there are some issues running sbcl on that distro 2015-11-17T15:55:34Z dwchandler: and perhaps multiple representations (projections) 2015-11-17T15:55:35Z axe: i was just thinking if the editor already knew where functions started, then you wouldnt need to write any brackets 2015-11-17T15:56:11Z et8: hitecnologys: so if anyone uses it maybe there is a trick to running sbcl there that I am missing 2015-11-17T15:56:32Z hitecnologys: et8: hmm, never ran SBCL there so can't really say. What exactly seems to be the trouble? 2015-11-17T15:56:39Z pjb: loke: tutorials and tutors don't teach beginners about mapcan, so they can give the flatten exercise :-) 2015-11-17T15:56:47Z Shinmera: axe: People have tried parenthesis-less systems. It looks completely atrocious in my opinion. 2015-11-17T15:56:50Z et8: hitecnologys: upon install, running it goes to ldb 2015-11-17T15:57:05Z dwchandler: axe: have you looked at http://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/index.html yet? 2015-11-17T15:57:22Z dwchandler: the parens are there, but you don't have to mess with them much 2015-11-17T15:57:32Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:57:35Z axe: Shinmera do you have any links? 2015-11-17T15:57:48Z Shinmera: axe: Sorry, don't have it bookmarked. :/ 2015-11-17T15:57:56Z hitecnologys: et8: could you give a stack trace and also possibly strace output on SBCL to see what function causes it? 2015-11-17T15:57:57Z axe: dwchandler yeh ive seen looks pretty good. but i was wondering about 0 parenthesis 2015-11-17T15:58:56Z dwchandler: there are langs inspired by lisp that don't have parens 2015-11-17T15:59:02Z dwchandler: but... ugh 2015-11-17T15:59:05Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T15:59:15Z et8: hitecnologys: running 'backtrace' in ldb gives 'segfault', but I assume you mean gdb output or something else? 2015-11-17T15:59:15Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:59:43Z Shinmera: et8: Might be better to ask on #sbcl 2015-11-17T15:59:45Z hitecnologys: et8: yep, something like that. 2015-11-17T15:59:50Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T15:59:50Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:00:06Z dwchandler: axe: there are many takes on dealing with parens automatically, or close to it. Getting rid of parens is a whole different thing. 2015-11-17T16:00:08Z hitecnologys: et8: also, consider Shinmera's advice. I'm no expert at SBCL. 2015-11-17T16:00:15Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:00:36Z hitecnologys: et8: but they'd ask what I asked as well. 2015-11-17T16:01:27Z halfcrazy quit (Quit: I'll be back soon.) 2015-11-17T16:02:10Z et8: ok cool I'll just try and figure it out 2015-11-17T16:02:21Z aerique quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T16:02:33Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:03:27Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-11-17T16:03:51Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:03:58Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-17T16:04:06Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-17T16:04:30Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:06:58Z lisse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T16:07:11Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:07:37Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T16:07:46Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:08:12Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:08:24Z erjoalgo` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:09:47Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:10:05Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:10:28Z erjoalgo`: will people ever stop complaining about "parenthesis in lisp"? 2015-11-17T16:11:10Z dim: the only one complaining are those who don't understand what it is all about, IMSHO, so no it will never stop 2015-11-17T16:12:24Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2015-11-17T16:12:25Z oGMo: i think anyone complaining isn't familiar with paredit, or they'd want more parens elsewhere 2015-11-17T16:12:50Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:13:18Z jackdaniel: I think it's more just mindless repeating after some people in the paste since many programming languages incorporate heavy bracketing (java -> }).bah())}.("cah").start(); ) 2015-11-17T16:13:34Z Guest59908 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:13:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:14:00Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2015-11-17T16:14:29Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:14:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:15:18Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:15:41Z gilez_ is now known as Guest55015 2015-11-17T16:16:09Z blubjr: if i want to use ~v inside of ~{~} is there a cleaner way than doing something like (format t "~{~v<~a~>~}" (loop for x in l nconcing (list n x))) 2015-11-17T16:16:09Z oGMo: eh. i don't think it's mindless repetition in most cases. look at _any_ new/different language and it's hard to read. people just mistake what seems obvious (there are parens) for the problem (it's hard to read any new language) 2015-11-17T16:16:12Z blubjr: or is that how you do that 2015-11-17T16:16:58Z splittist: But algol syntax is so much closer to natural language. I mean, no one says "Add up the change in your pocket", they say "coin[1] plus coin[2] plus coin[3]..." 2015-11-17T16:17:40Z soggybread: ((people here) are (in denial) that (there is some (other (ways to define/visualise) (tree-like structures) than (pairing parenthesis))) :) 2015-11-17T16:17:55Z oGMo: splittist: natural language is terrible 2015-11-17T16:18:12Z newdan: splittist: It *is* a bit closer to standard math notation, at least 2015-11-17T16:18:30Z newdan: Not that I dislike CL 2015-11-17T16:18:48Z cat_ is now known as dfcat 2015-11-17T16:19:06Z oGMo: soggybread: there are. other. all worse. 2015-11-17T16:19:10Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:19:17Z et8: splittist: these days you can get the best of both worlds, Julia language 2015-11-17T16:19:59Z Guest55015 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:20:50Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:21:33Z gilez__ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:21:41Z splittist: newdan: standard grade 1 math notation, perhaps (: 2015-11-17T16:22:49Z dlowe: blubjr: I would say if you want to do that, you've outstripped format 2015-11-17T16:22:54Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:22:59Z dlowe: blubjr: and you should use with-output-to-string 2015-11-17T16:23:25Z dlowe: If you can't make a nice readable format string, ditch format quickly 2015-11-17T16:24:31Z splittist: or document your string. It doesn't have to be all on one line. 2015-11-17T16:25:22Z yvm: Is it a reader macro which execute expression if specified symbol not bound? 2015-11-17T16:25:40Z yvm: s/it/there/ 2015-11-17T16:26:02Z blubjr: i like format.. 2015-11-17T16:26:45Z shka: i like trains... 2015-11-17T16:27:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:28:05Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-17T16:28:09Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T16:28:12Z jackdaniel: yvm: do you need reader macro for that? um, (handler-case bah (unbound-variable (e) "unbound")) ; ? 2015-11-17T16:28:55Z jackdaniel: where bah may be any arbitrary call, like, hm, (loop (print (eval (read))) 2015-11-17T16:29:07Z jackdaniel: ) 2015-11-17T16:29:15Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:29:26Z soggybread: oGMo: parens suck by themselves, that is why you have identation and parens highlighting in your editor... and most untrained people do not see former and don't know about latter 2015-11-17T16:29:57Z yvm: I used boundp, but just curious if such reader macro exist. 2015-11-17T16:34:25Z splittist: blubjr: what are you actually trying to do? 2015-11-17T16:35:54Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:37:40Z pjb: erjoalgo`: there is consistently more to much more parentheses in C programs than in lisp programs. 2015-11-17T16:39:12Z blubjr: im printing a table and i want to centre things within their columns, the things come from a list and each column is the same width, but the width varies between calls to the routine 2015-11-17T16:39:23Z blubjr: my way works fine i was just wondering if i had missed a simpler way 2015-11-17T16:41:06Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:41:52Z newdan: pjb: I am pretty sure that's false, unless part of your basis for that is just that C programs are longer in general 2015-11-17T16:42:43Z pjb: newdan: just do it! 2015-11-17T16:42:58Z pjb: newdan: of course, in C you count (){}[] ; in C++ you could also template <> 2015-11-17T16:43:03Z newdan: pjb: Function definition, array access, structure access, variable declaration, assignment, math all don't use parens in C 2015-11-17T16:43:14Z pjb: Nonetheless. 2015-11-17T16:43:20Z clarkema quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:43:49Z pjb: newdan: what people don't realize, is that there is no useless parenthesis in lisp. 2015-11-17T16:44:41Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T16:45:02Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-17T16:45:06Z z0d: that is weird. Lisp has a very simple syntax, yet people bitch about it 2015-11-17T16:45:12Z dwchandler: the problem people have is basically ))))))))))))))))))))))))) at the end, I think 2015-11-17T16:45:24Z oGMo: there is no actual problem 2015-11-17T16:45:25Z dlowe: that pretty much never happens 2015-11-17T16:45:26Z z0d: why do they never complain about semicolons and stuff in C? 2015-11-17T16:45:32Z blubjr: i don't see that often in cl 2015-11-17T16:45:40Z newdan: z0d: People complain about semicolons in C 2015-11-17T16:45:42Z pjb: or worse: );}];}}}}));}}}} 2015-11-17T16:45:52Z newdan: z0d: People complain about *plenty* of stuff in C 2015-11-17T16:45:54Z dlowe: pjb: that's typical clojure code there 2015-11-17T16:46:05Z dlowe: minus the ; 2015-11-17T16:46:14Z z0d: newdan: really? wow 2015-11-17T16:46:15Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:47:28Z dlowe: "There are two kinds of languages: the kinds people complain about, and the kinds no one uses" 2015-11-17T16:47:33Z dwchandler: consider the rise of sgml derivatives like html and xml. they are horrible, but many people take comfort that tells them what's being closed. 2015-11-17T16:47:47Z newdan: Yeah. People complain about basically everyhing. I'm surprised people in #lisp react when people complain about parens 2015-11-17T16:49:10Z mordocai: I've just discovered over time that I hate syntax. Lisp doesn't have much of it, that makes me happy. 2015-11-17T16:49:36Z djh: I've been surprised how often i can write Lisp that works the first time, unlike all the little edits I tend to need in other languages 2015-11-17T16:49:36Z shka: same impression 2015-11-17T16:49:44Z Shinmera: newdan: It's usually people reacting who don't know better, people who are bored, or people with a knee-jerk reaction. 2015-11-17T16:50:01Z mordocai: Boredom is a big factor I believe yeah 2015-11-17T16:50:04Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:50:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:50:25Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T16:50:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T16:50:44Z pjb: blubjr: ~V is not a format directive. 2015-11-17T16:51:10Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2015-11-17T16:51:13Z blubjr: its not ? 2015-11-17T16:52:41Z pjb: It is not. 2015-11-17T16:52:48Z pjb: In your example, the format directive is ~< 2015-11-17T16:52:56Z pjb: and you pass it a Variable parameter, ~V< 2015-11-17T16:53:39Z blubjr: oh, ya, sorry 2015-11-17T16:54:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T16:54:35Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:54:55Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T16:55:39Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-17T16:56:56Z soggybread: I, personally, dislike mentality that says "[common] lisp [and emacs] is perfect and can't be better" and "we can never learn anything from how newcomers react to lisp ecosystem, we can just dismiss them, acting defensive" 2015-11-17T16:58:05Z Shinmera: I, personally, dislike people talking emptily about what someone else should be doing, instead of working on fixing the problem and driving the community forwards by themselves. 2015-11-17T16:58:28Z cyphase__ quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-11-17T16:58:31Z mordocai: I mean, it depends. I don't know many people who actually claim that lisp and emacs is perfect. However, many of the complaints like "Parens are scary" and "Learning emacs is too much work" are stupid IMO. 2015-11-17T16:58:33Z antonv: soggybread: I agree, lisp should should steal from all other languages / environments 2015-11-17T16:58:39Z antonv: as they steal from lisp 2015-11-17T16:59:00Z dlowe: imitation isn't stealing :p 2015-11-17T16:59:08Z djh: If a language feature has survived for fifty years, it should take more than "I don't like it" from a newbie to drive a change 2015-11-17T16:59:43Z JuanDaugherty: "emotional intelligence" is mostly learning how to deal with stupid people 2015-11-17T16:59:53Z pjb: soggybread: you're misinterpreting the mentality. It says "you are too newbie and lacking too much resources to be even thinking in replacing common lisp and emacs". 2015-11-17T17:00:28Z dfcat: at what point is this mentality simply accepting presumption that people don't need to learn anything before attempting to interact with it? 2015-11-17T17:00:40Z Guest7812 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:00:59Z dfcat: and at what point is this excessive individualist incursion into systems a philosophical problem that has nothing to do with parenthesis? 2015-11-17T17:01:08Z antonv: I recently heard from java programmer, that lambda functions in Java 8 are influence of "scripting languages" 2015-11-17T17:01:15Z dfcat: < was noob once. repented of noob ways. 2015-11-17T17:01:26Z antonv: he ment Groovy, etc 2015-11-17T17:01:27Z dfcat: hahaha 2015-11-17T17:01:42Z shka: antonv: well, they kinda are 2015-11-17T17:01:47Z dfcat: which is hilarious, considering java borrows so much from lisp to start with 2015-11-17T17:01:51Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:01:54Z axe: well, lisp copied java 2015-11-17T17:01:58Z axe: then muddled up the syntax 2015-11-17T17:02:06Z et8: nothing really compares still to Genera so I guess Lisp just needs to steal from Lisp 2015-11-17T17:02:08Z dfcat: oh right, i forgot. :D 2015-11-17T17:02:09Z oGMo: soggybread: no one said CL/emacs can't be better, but you utterly lack any idea as to _actually how_ 2015-11-17T17:02:17Z antonv: He doesn't even know whom to thank for this feature 2015-11-17T17:02:22Z pjb: Yes, Genera and interlisp. 2015-11-17T17:02:28Z shka: i don't think that java took anything from lisp 2015-11-17T17:02:29Z oGMo: CL has issues, emacs is a big ball of issues, but you're not qualified to discuss either if you're stuck on "parens" 2015-11-17T17:02:42Z pjb: ^ 2015-11-17T17:02:44Z shka: well, perhaps gc 2015-11-17T17:02:54Z et8: the sort function being called sort and being magically destructive... 2015-11-17T17:02:57Z dfcat: java took tons from lisp - it basically provides a 'managed runtime' and way to name packages coherently around C/C++ from the syntax perspective 2015-11-17T17:02:57Z shka: but java is completly different language 2015-11-17T17:03:00Z JuanDaugherty: so i guess that was the golden age of lisp, when it had it's own machines 2015-11-17T17:03:20Z dfcat: and is byte compiled, which was pretty radical in some realms back in the day. 2015-11-17T17:03:20Z soggybread: oGMo: I'm not stuck on parens, I learned to live with them (as you did). 2015-11-17T17:03:22Z JuanDaugherty: *its 2015-11-17T17:03:39Z shka: dfcat: ok, java platform 2015-11-17T17:03:43Z dfcat: yes - in this way 2015-11-17T17:03:52Z axe: what if, the brain is the result of a lisp without parens 2015-11-17T17:03:55Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:03:56Z shka: but java lang is just… not lisp 2015-11-17T17:04:00Z soggybread: djh: If every second newbie is complaining about something, then you know that learning curve is too steep and may be there needs to be some better way to explain why [parens are good etc.], than just saying "believe me, and you will see, or go learn java" 2015-11-17T17:04:16Z jdz: soggybread: "learned to live with parens" does not sound anything like "i love parens and you would have to come up with something revolutionary to take that away from me" 2015-11-17T17:04:19Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:04:25Z oGMo: soggybread: i learned to _read_ and _edit_, and even _parse_, and learned they have many advantages over any other option, and that any perceived issues are not actual issues 2015-11-17T17:04:26Z dfcat: it kind of merges the 'large unified systems' and GC approach and ability to introspect from lisp with a strict-typing of C/C++ 2015-11-17T17:04:37Z dfcat: the fact that gosling wrote an emacs I don't think is inconcequential.. 2015-11-17T17:04:42Z djh: soggybread: or you know it's a very obvious feature that's not standard in other languages that would therefore attract a huge chunk of newbie mindshare 2015-11-17T17:04:45Z soggybread: oGMo: do you use paredit? 2015-11-17T17:04:49Z Shinmera: soggybread: Just because a newbie complains about it does not make it a valid issue. Background matters. 2015-11-17T17:04:53Z oGMo: soggybread: among other things 2015-11-17T17:04:54Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:05:03Z oGMo: i use paredit _everywhere_ now, because it's awesome 2015-11-17T17:05:04Z newdan: soggybread: But the parens are a fundamental component of LISP. I don't see how you can do anything about them and wind up with LISP. The only "thing" you can really do is point them to a good editor that makes handling the parens easy and mostly painless 2015-11-17T17:05:38Z oGMo: i made a document system using the CL reader just because it's so much nicer to edit that way 2015-11-17T17:05:40Z jdz: i personally loved parens before there was paredit around 2015-11-17T17:05:44Z ojl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:05:46Z et8: but Lisp has some libraries which are amazing, e.g: series, CLIM, CLX, rucksack ... etc too 2015-11-17T17:05:56Z soggybread: ok, people, I'm not talking about problem with language, only about problem with how new people react to it, an how you react to them :) 2015-11-17T17:05:58Z jdz: paredit just makes them so much more awesome 2015-11-17T17:05:58Z djh: I use stock vim for my lisp, working fine for me so far 2015-11-17T17:06:07Z Shinmera: soggybread: Lots of people that do complain about it already have a background in algol-like languages, which means that their opinion is likely not objectively valid and the only "solution" to it would be to make it more algol-like, which really doesn't help anything. 2015-11-17T17:06:13Z antonv: et8: do you know any project using those libraries? 2015-11-17T17:06:46Z et8: antonv: stumpwm uses CLX, I've used series before in commercial settings, I'm actually running stumpwm with clx now 2015-11-17T17:07:00Z antonv: good to know 2015-11-17T17:07:08Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:07:15Z et8: antonv: I don't think it really matters who uses the libs when their ideas are so important 2015-11-17T17:07:19Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:07:20Z soggybread: and not talking now about fixing language, more about fixing how to get more people like it (and I know that this is low priority for you) 2015-11-17T17:07:23Z shka: soggybread: well, syntax is syntax 2015-11-17T17:07:41Z shka: i don't see why we need to make so much noice around it 2015-11-17T17:07:53Z shka: cl syntax is fairly simple and that's good 2015-11-17T17:07:55Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T17:08:01Z shka: it is also regular 2015-11-17T17:08:03Z Shinmera: Syntax has a lot of personal preference to it, so it's opinionated, so it's easy to quarrel about it. 2015-11-17T17:08:12Z oGMo: soggybread: the way to get people to "like" it is the same as it always has been... _learn it and use it_. if you don't learn it and use it, what's the point? and if you do, you'll quickly like it. 2015-11-17T17:08:38Z shka: regular syntax helps to make those fancy automatic editing tools so that's good 2015-11-17T17:08:39Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:08:53Z shka: besides 2015-11-17T17:08:54Z oGMo: and i mean write _actual_ code, full programs and systems, not a few test functions that print "hello world" 10 times or add numbers 2015-11-17T17:09:22Z shka: it 2015-11-17T17:09:30Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:09:34Z shka: it's true that you have so many parenthesis 2015-11-17T17:09:38Z shka: but on the other hand 2015-11-17T17:09:41Z shka: you dont have: 2015-11-17T17:09:44Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:10:02Z shka: begin/end ; {} [] <> etc. 2015-11-17T17:10:15Z shka: you don't need , either 2015-11-17T17:10:19Z shka: well, unless reader 2015-11-17T17:10:29Z oGMo: comma as a delimiter is silly heh 2015-11-17T17:10:47Z et8: parens make it so that you can structurally edit code sanely, thats pretty much all that matters about them in the sense that no other language is less annoying to code in because of it 2015-11-17T17:11:13Z shka: so, well i would say 2015-11-17T17:11:23Z shka: that common lisp is pretty easy to write 2015-11-17T17:11:33Z shka: certainly easier than java or C++ 2015-11-17T17:11:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:11:56Z shka: it takes a little bit of pratice to read 2015-11-17T17:12:05Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T17:12:06Z shka: but after that, it is amazingly easy to read 2015-11-17T17:12:16Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:12:26Z shka: that sums up my syntax thoughts 2015-11-17T17:13:02Z ojl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T17:13:03Z soggybread: oGMo: why should someone believe you? If their first reaction "this is complicated, I should ask some #lisp people" and #lisp people answer is "deal with it, you'll like it"... and they never see _past_ the parens (at least guy asking about pojectional editor maybe already did...) 2015-11-17T17:13:27Z axe: my main problem, coming from c# to lisp, is that most tutorials dont really explain why the syntax is effective or how to read. jus that 'its simple just look!'. so i try to rad like a c# program and i get confused, then give up 2015-11-17T17:13:49Z soggybread: axe: yes, this is what I am trying to say ) 2015-11-17T17:13:54Z shka: well 2015-11-17T17:13:58Z shka: lisp is different 2015-11-17T17:13:59Z pjb: newdan: you couldn't be more wrong. Parentheses just DO NOT EXIST in lisp! 2015-11-17T17:14:13Z pjb: newdan: they are structured editor commands that are left in the text files. 2015-11-17T17:14:23Z pjb: newdan: But in a lisp image, there is 0 parenthesis. 2015-11-17T17:14:28Z axe: it was only when i realised like ohhh its like a tree, that collapses down 2015-11-17T17:14:30Z newdan: pjb: what 2015-11-17T17:14:44Z newdan: pjb: Yeah but in myprogram.lisp there are many parenthesis 2015-11-17T17:14:48Z shka: axe: yup, exactly 2015-11-17T17:14:52Z pjb: newdan: check: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Lisp-Paradoxes 2015-11-17T17:15:31Z pjb: newdan: (find #\( '(is (there) any ((parenthesis) here) ?)) --> NIL 2015-11-17T17:15:34Z erjag: i think there's a phd in programming language punctiation waiting to be done 2015-11-17T17:15:36Z pjb: newdan: (find '( '(is (there) any ((parenthesis) here) ?)) --> NIL 2015-11-17T17:15:37Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T17:15:45Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:15:56Z joneshf-laptop_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:15:58Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T17:16:05Z pjb: erjag: yes, there are a lot of PhD do be obtained, when you ignore lisp. 2015-11-17T17:16:33Z erjag: pjb: i remember this very argument for as long as i use lisp 2015-11-17T17:16:39Z newdan: pjb: Er... Right. The memory representation doesn't use parens. I don't think anyone was trying to imply that. But CL source code has parens. I think that's what we're all talking about 2015-11-17T17:16:41Z oleo: pjb: ever tried lisp on a cray ? 2015-11-17T17:16:45Z oleo: lol 2015-11-17T17:16:47Z shka: soggybread: well, perhaps we can say this the other way 2015-11-17T17:17:01Z erjag: if we only had some conclusive monograph on the subject we could refere people to 2015-11-17T17:17:03Z shka: lisp has no syntax in the sense of code->AST translation 2015-11-17T17:17:25Z shka: (it has, but it is usefull to think that it has not) 2015-11-17T17:17:32Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:17:43Z shka: since you need to produce AST 2015-11-17T17:17:46Z pjb: oGMo: you could patch your C parser to allow int is[]={1, 2, 3 and 4}; :-) 2015-11-17T17:17:50Z shka: why not simply write it? 2015-11-17T17:18:02Z pjb: oGMo: and then you'd have to support {1, 2, 3, and 4} too :-) 2015-11-17T17:18:17Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:18:20Z shka: and honestly 2015-11-17T17:18:23Z shka: as I said 2015-11-17T17:18:28Z shka: syntax is just whatever 2015-11-17T17:18:48Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T17:18:55Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:19:08Z pjb: axe: yes, those tutorials about the lisp reader and printer are lost in the history of times. 2015-11-17T17:19:19Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T17:20:09Z pjb: newdan: there's is no CL source code. It was planed to design a lisp source code from day one, back in 1958, the so called M-expression, but it was never completed. 2015-11-17T17:20:24Z pjb: newdan: check: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html 2015-11-17T17:20:47Z pjb: newdan: we just do not write source CODE. We write literal DATA. 2015-11-17T17:21:46Z newdan: pjb: And we write it in a text file with parenthesis 2015-11-17T17:21:53Z oGMo: you write strings, and they get read; there is still syntax :p 2015-11-17T17:21:55Z pjb: newdan: and the point is that the actual syntax source code of your program, yourself you can design and implement it, with reader macros. 2015-11-17T17:22:12Z erjag: time for classics 2015-11-17T17:22:13Z erjag: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/3163496610594768@naggum.no.html 2015-11-17T17:22:41Z pjb: oGMo: the point is that you can put your own reader macro on #\" to read strings with a different syntax (eg. different escape sequences), or to another character than #\". 2015-11-17T17:23:20Z ee_cc joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:23:36Z pjb: axe: basically, the lisp tutorial you want, would consist in implementing lisp. 2015-11-17T17:23:49Z oGMo: pjb: when you _write things in the editor_, those are not "writing literal data" in any sense other than writing a blob of string that is later parsed 2015-11-17T17:24:09Z pjb: axe: this is why there are so many tiny scheme implementations done in universities. For CL, we'd have to define a subset of CL for newbies to implement. 2015-11-17T17:24:17Z oGMo: it's not any different than writing C or anything else in that regard, it's just a simpler parse, because you really don't need more 2015-11-17T17:24:50Z axe: twas all c# at my uni 2015-11-17T17:24:51Z pjb: Arguably indeed, the point of lisp is lost until you write an interpreter or compiler, or your first macro. 2015-11-17T17:25:07Z pjb: axe: bad education. ask for a refund. 2015-11-17T17:25:19Z pjb: axe: CS education should not be about a language. 2015-11-17T17:25:31Z axe: government said no :( 2015-11-17T17:25:34Z oGMo: it _would_ be neat if there was an editor that more closely mapped string literal code to actual objects, e.g., delete a function definition and you delete the function binding 2015-11-17T17:25:35Z pjb: Even if all the enterprises around the university are hiring slaves to work with that language. 2015-11-17T17:25:49Z pjb: I mean, if it's called a university. I don't have any problem with industry schools. 2015-11-17T17:25:53Z oGMo: but by "neat" i mean "neat in theory but possibly not practical" 2015-11-17T17:26:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:27:10Z axe: pjb there was lots of theory too, but you had to apply it practically in mainly c#, later it was c++. some prolog too 2015-11-17T17:27:35Z jegaxd26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:27:35Z pjb: oGMo: Microsoft did some work on that. But indeed, the problem is that we work by progressing from an unsyntactic form of the idea represented as text, toward a structured form that can be interpreted by the program (lisp). Hence the usefulness of emacs. 2015-11-17T17:28:08Z pjb: axe: call it Microsoft Application School, and suit your university for lying advertisement. 2015-11-17T17:28:16Z Beluki joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:28:17Z pjb: your "university". 2015-11-17T17:28:22Z axe: heh 2015-11-17T17:28:41Z axe: our best lecturer was a microsft mvp hmm... 2015-11-17T17:28:58Z pjb: Again, I don't have anything to say against industry schools. 2015-11-17T17:29:12Z oGMo: pjb: well sure 2015-11-17T17:29:16Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T17:29:24Z pjb: I have against industry schools that desguise as universities, and universties that transform into industry schools. 2015-11-17T17:29:43Z pjb: I have nothing against. 2015-11-17T17:29:56Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:30:30Z pjb: For example, universities have big problems because they are under such an influence from the capitalistic world. 2015-11-17T17:31:00Z shka: axe: we are fed up java here 2015-11-17T17:31:04Z shka: which is even worse 2015-11-17T17:31:38Z pjb: They could form so many searchers, and let them research and LATER teach. But because they're imposed to work like a for-profit corporation, they cannot do that, and so many pre- or post- PhD have to quit researching. It's such a wast for the society at all! 2015-11-17T17:32:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:34:20Z axe: well we were taught c# because thats what 90% of businnesses ask for ha. not some conspracy thing pjb 2015-11-17T17:34:58Z shka: 90% of industry wants C♯? 2015-11-17T17:35:03Z shka: that saddens me 2015-11-17T17:35:26Z pjb: axe: again, I don't have anything against industry schools or business schools. 2015-11-17T17:35:34Z pjb: axe: but they should not call themselves universities. 2015-11-17T17:36:00Z oleo: and for the not so sharp ones use erectile dysfunction medicaire or what ? 2015-11-17T17:36:04Z oleo: lol 2015-11-17T17:37:00Z pjb: says oleo from the back of the class and nobody knows about what. 2015-11-17T17:38:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:40:31Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-17T17:44:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:45:47Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2015-11-17T17:46:18Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:47:46Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:47:47Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:49:23Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:50:18Z blubjr: lol 2015-11-17T17:50:50Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:51:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:52:25Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:53:50Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T17:54:52Z Qudit314` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:55:19Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:55:30Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:56:35Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:57:19Z sammwch joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:57:36Z mac_ifie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:57:48Z axe: funny that for the last year i have trying to build my language, because i wasnt happy with c#, only to realise that lisp might be want i want ... 2015-11-17T17:58:13Z axe facepalms 2015-11-17T17:58:17Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:58:18Z sammwch is now known as heddwch 2015-11-17T17:58:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:58:25Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T17:58:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:58:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:58:40Z warweasle: axe: You do not know what you want. WE know what You want. 2015-11-17T17:58:46Z sigjuice_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:58:59Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:15Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:16Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:16Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:35Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:42Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-11-17T17:59:44Z mac_ified quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T17:59:45Z trinitr0n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:11Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2015-11-17T18:00:13Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:13Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:14Z gaya- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:14Z Viaken quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:39Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:39Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:46Z ft joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:00:59Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:00:59Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:01:09Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-17T18:01:17Z trinitr0n joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:01:40Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:02:41Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:03:44Z Yuuhi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T18:03:58Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:05:09Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:05:56Z dlowe: axe: not like it was wasted effort. 2015-11-17T18:06:23Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:06:26Z dlowe: but really, if you have ambitions that big, you owe it to yourself to look at *all* the prior art 2015-11-17T18:06:50Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:06:51Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:07:24Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:10:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T18:11:42Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:11:44Z axe: wells thats how i came to lisp 2015-11-17T18:11:45Z et8: I wonder if really you could get a refund for your University degree course 2015-11-17T18:11:52Z et8: pjb has given me an idea 2015-11-17T18:11:56Z axe: each idea i have i research previous attempts 2015-11-17T18:12:00Z p_l: dunno, haven't paid for mine 2015-11-17T18:12:09Z axe: and look at other langauge offerings to see what gap they try to fill 2015-11-17T18:12:23Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:12:23Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:12:30Z axion joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:12:43Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:12:46Z sweater is now known as Guest23871 2015-11-17T18:12:54Z et8: axe: take a look at Lucid 2015-11-17T18:13:05Z et8: axe: that language could do with an implementation 2015-11-17T18:13:12Z sweater_ left #lisp 2015-11-17T18:13:13Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:13:58Z Qudit314` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:14:04Z Qudit314159 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T18:14:21Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:14:25Z Viaken joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:14:39Z axe: what do you mean? 2015-11-17T18:15:12Z Qudit314` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:15:16Z Beluki: "Each variable in Lucid is a stream of values". Well that's... interesting. 2015-11-17T18:15:55Z erjoalgo` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:16:17Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:16:59Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:17:39Z et8: Beluki: yeah like: Nat = fby 1 (Nat + 1) 2015-11-17T18:17:44Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:17:56Z Qudit314` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T18:18:05Z et8: which defines the stream of natural numbers 2015-11-17T18:18:28Z et8: but of course you can also parametrize the variables by dimension, which is perhaps more interesting 2015-11-17T18:18:51Z et8: var Nat = fby.d 1 (Nat + 1); Nat @ [d <- 5] 2015-11-17T18:18:54Z Beluki: I don't know how practical it is but it's certainly different. I don't remember quite anything like this. 2015-11-17T18:19:22Z Qudit314159 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T18:19:27Z et8: Beluki: yeah research stopped on it back in the day because people were more interested in 'functional' languages and no one knew how to implement higher order functions in Lucid 2015-11-17T18:19:48Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:19:50Z et8: so they considered it a broken functional language, even though it was never meant to be functional in the first place, necessarily 2015-11-17T18:19:54Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:20:15Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:20:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-17T18:21:46Z et8: but it was discovered circa 2010 how to implement functions properly in Lucid, some people in Australia did some research on it (TransLucid) 2015-11-17T18:22:17Z et8: in Lisp theres a lib called SERIES which has similar kinds of abstractions that you can use 2015-11-17T18:22:23Z et8: but its lacking dimensions 2015-11-17T18:22:33Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:22:38Z et8: and its not intensional.. 2015-11-17T18:23:35Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:24:00Z Beluki: Yep, I toyed around with SERIES although I've never used it in a big projects. 2015-11-17T18:24:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:24:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T18:24:47Z Beluki: I just find old forgotten languages or strange constructs incredibly interesting. Lucid fits the description. :) 2015-11-17T18:25:09Z blubjr: yes 2015-11-17T18:25:19Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:25:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:26:06Z et8: Beluki: yeah Lucid is very interesting, but also because the research there barely exists 2015-11-17T18:27:02Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:27:36Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:32:45Z roo_ is now known as roo 2015-11-17T18:33:14Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T18:35:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:35:21Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:36:49Z shka: pardon my question 2015-11-17T18:36:59Z shka: but how is this different from lazy sequence? 2015-11-17T18:40:22Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:42:03Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:42:14Z paul0` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:43:30Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:43:44Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T18:45:04Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:45:45Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T18:46:03Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:49:08Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T18:49:35Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:49:42Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:53:03Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T18:53:13Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:53:13Z wgslayer quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T18:55:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:56:50Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-11-17T18:57:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:01:07Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:02:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:02:24Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2015-11-17T19:02:53Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:03:48Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:04:25Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:08:13Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:08:29Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:08:41Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:08:55Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:08:58Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-11-17T19:09:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:10:23Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:10:34Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:10:54Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:11:47Z et8: shka: there is an implicit context in Lucid based languages and they use a technique known as 'eduction' rather than 'evaluation' in order to interpret the meaning of the expressions 2015-11-17T19:12:26Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2015-11-17T19:14:35Z et8: shka: a lazy sequence in a functional language is a set of interconnected closures where the first element is forced and the rest delayed until asked for. A Lucid stream is an expression which, when educed with a context gives you a result. In the Lucid expression there is no data structure basically 2015-11-17T19:14:40Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:14:45Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:15:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:15:47Z et8: shka: my description of a lazy sequence sucks there though, but i hope you get the jist 2015-11-17T19:16:36Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:17:33Z shka: et8: i get that my wifi sucks 2015-11-17T19:18:04Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-17T19:18:24Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:20:10Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:21:04Z et8: shka: lol, mine too in Trinidad 2015-11-17T19:21:09Z et8: :D 2015-11-17T19:22:00Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:22:28Z knobo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:23:26Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:24:14Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:24:30Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:24:33Z shka: needless to say i didn't get anything 2015-11-17T19:24:41Z shka: but that's ok :/ 2015-11-17T19:25:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:27:30Z knobo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:28:28Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T19:29:05Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2015-11-17T19:29:10Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:29:41Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:30:31Z clique joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:30:47Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:31:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:32:21Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:35:46Z ggole quit 2015-11-17T19:35:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:37:30Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:37:36Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:37:46Z shka: ok, so it is like you have current value, and perhaps some callback to get next value, than mutate current value 2015-11-17T19:37:59Z shka: is that correct? 2015-11-17T19:38:06Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:38:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:38:39Z shka: honestly, that does not sound extreamly complicated 2015-11-17T19:38:46Z shka: or interesting for that matter 2015-11-17T19:38:57Z shka: i think that i don't understand how evaluation works 2015-11-17T19:39:29Z shka: i suspect that you can write code like: 2015-11-17T19:39:46Z shka: well, basicly like in iterate 2015-11-17T19:40:24Z shka: or maybe something like (calculate-sum input-stream) 2015-11-17T19:40:36Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:40:44Z shka: this will read each element of the input-stream until end? 2015-11-17T19:41:11Z shka: but will it return another stream? 2015-11-17T19:41:12Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:41:28Z shka: i guess it requires some time to wrap your head around 2015-11-17T19:41:35Z shka: but it may be interesting 2015-11-17T19:41:57Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:42:08Z shka: ah, i know 2015-11-17T19:43:05Z shka: this function would return another stream, starting with first element of input-stream, each next element will be calculated by reading input-stream and adding to the current 2015-11-17T19:43:31Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:44:10Z shka: oh, damn it, et8 is not here anymore 2015-11-17T19:45:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:47:35Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:48:26Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:49:12Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T19:49:12Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:49:41Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T19:50:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T19:50:35Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-17T19:51:03Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:51:06Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T19:54:36Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-11-17T20:08:04Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2015-11-17T20:08:40Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-17T20:09:19Z clarkema joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:09:28Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-17T20:10:11Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-17T20:10:57Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:11:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:11:45Z spyrosoft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T20:12:18Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:12:18Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T20:12:18Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:12:19Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:13:58Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:16:53Z knobo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:17:02Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T20:17:20Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T20:20:40Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-17T20:20:49Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:27:51Z soggybread: http://cliki.net/meme <- is it gone completely? 2015-11-17T20:28:57Z Xach: soggybread: i think kevin rosenberg could tell you for sure, he does not use irc though. 2015-11-17T20:29:11Z Shinmera-: Kind of ironic. 2015-11-17T20:29:15Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2015-11-17T20:29:40Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-17T20:30:03Z clique left #lisp 2015-11-17T20:30:10Z Shinmera: soggybread: What do you need a log browser for? 2015-11-17T20:30:13Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T20:31:01Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:31:55Z soggybread: Shinmera: I've found some links to it 2015-11-17T20:32:07Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:32:09Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-11-17T20:33:20Z WizJin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T20:33:41Z soggybread: thankfully, it was using timestamp in URL and I was able to find linked logs at ircbrowse.net ;) 2015-11-17T20:34:03Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:34:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:34:11Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:34:21Z erjoalgo: how do i take a package and "empty" it, or unbind all its symbols? 2015-11-17T20:34:39Z Shinmera: soggybread: #lisp is logged from a couple of places, there's the clozure, tunes, and tynet logs as well. 2015-11-17T20:34:53Z Shinmera: See http://www.cliki.net/IRC 2015-11-17T20:35:26Z Bicyclidine: erjoalgo: you mean unintern its symbols? why would you want to do that? 2015-11-17T20:35:33Z soggybread: Shinmera: seen those, but clozure, tunes, and tynet logs do not have logs from 2005 ;) 2015-11-17T20:35:46Z Shinmera: Ah, indeed. 2015-11-17T20:35:52Z soggybread: or I didn't find them... 2015-11-17T20:36:20Z Shinmera: TyNET only logs since about.. two years? 2015-11-17T20:37:10Z erjoalgo: i'm using a "disposable" package which is just a container for a bunch of symbols, like an emacs obarray 2015-11-17T20:37:16Z soggybread: should I add some note about timestamp conversion and link to ircbrowse.net to cliki page? 2015-11-17T20:37:24Z erjoalgo: and sometimes I need to "reset" 2015-11-17T20:37:32Z Bicyclidine: erjoalgo: usually i'd just delete it and make a new one with the same name. 2015-11-17T20:37:33Z erjoalgo: but I don't want to make a new package 2015-11-17T20:38:00Z Bicyclidine: Why not? 2015-11-17T20:38:01Z Shinmera: soggybread: Maybe not timestamp conversion, but adding a link to ircbrowse like the rest that are already there couldn't hurt. 2015-11-17T20:38:18Z Bicyclidine: Well, anyway I guess you could use do-symbols... 2015-11-17T20:38:22Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:38:42Z erjoalgo: because i have references to that old package. would the new one be 'eq to old ones? 2015-11-17T20:38:46Z soggybread: Shinmera: I think timestamp stuff may be useful on Meme page ) 2015-11-17T20:38:48Z Bicyclidine: no. 2015-11-17T20:39:02Z Shinmera: soggybread: Ah. Sure. Just not on the IRC page. 2015-11-17T20:39:13Z Bicyclidine: (do-symbols (s temp-package) (when (eq (symbol-package s) temp-package) (unintern s))), or something? 2015-11-17T20:39:17Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T20:43:33Z erjoalgo: is the loop language too complicated? is the documentation accessible? 2015-11-17T20:43:40Z blubjr: its fine 2015-11-17T20:44:18Z Shinmera: erjoalgo: See clhs for LOOP and section 6.1 2015-11-17T20:44:40Z Shinmera: erjoalgo: Otherwise, PCL has a good primer for most useful options. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 2015-11-17T20:44:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:45:12Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:45:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T20:47:31Z jasom: erjoalgo: the hyperspec documentation for loop is just "okay" IMO, not great; PCL covers the basics and is more accessible. 2015-11-17T20:48:18Z Bicyclidine: looping over a package's symbols is just the same as do-symbols anyway 2015-11-17T20:49:02Z erjoalgo: my loop inquiry was orthogonal to my package issue. i think i've heard some people complain about loop 2015-11-17T20:49:25Z pjb: People complain about everything. 2015-11-17T20:50:11Z erjoalgo: i find it useful but honestly i don't get much out of that CLHS documentation 2015-11-17T20:50:41Z pjb: erjoalgo: you have to learn to play with Lego™ 2015-11-17T20:50:44Z erjoalgo: i basically learned loop from that PCL doc 2015-11-17T20:51:03Z pjb: CLHS gives you a bunch of little bricks, what you do with them is up to you. 2015-11-17T20:51:17Z Shinmera: The CLHS' target audience isn't people who want to just learn lisp. It's mostly a reference document and should be used as such. 2015-11-17T20:51:57Z erjoalgo: of course, i was in a hurry, so maybe if i had dedicated more time i would've found more utility. yeah, i think that's true about the audience 2015-11-17T20:52:43Z Shinmera: If you need help finding your way about, the CLHS is probably the wrong place to be. But if you want to know how some function or part works exactly, then you should use it. 2015-11-17T20:53:00Z erjoalgo: yeah. 2015-11-17T20:53:07Z phf: at some point in your lisp carrier you have to become proficient at clhs, there's no substitute 2015-11-17T20:53:55Z erjoalgo: my carrier is actually Republic Wireless. but yeah. 2015-11-17T20:54:20Z phf: in fact it's clhs that taught me a value of good documentation, which is a different beast from, say, tutorial or educational narrative 2015-11-17T20:56:59Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:58:04Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-17T20:59:23Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-17T21:07:09Z erjoalgo: in this case, i was getting frustrated with both the tutorials and educational narratives, and the CLHS. but i think good documentation can be didactic as well. i should be able to get the gist of how to use something by looking at the documentation 2015-11-17T21:07:18Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T21:08:04Z erjoalgo: now i also wonder if the lisp community is elitist, and whether this is a conscious thing 2015-11-17T21:08:34Z Shinmera: There's no lisp community, but there's probably a bunch of people that code lisp and are elitist. 2015-11-17T21:08:39Z Bicyclidine: we're pretty elitist 2015-11-17T21:08:47Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:08:51Z erjoalgo: compare with the emacs lisp documentation. it is clear, well specified, but also didactic 2015-11-17T21:09:13Z oGMo: clhs is a reference, not a tutorial :P 2015-11-17T21:09:18Z Bicyclidine: loop is complicated though. like real complicated. it's hard to understand except with a lot of examples and that's not what the CLHS does. 2015-11-17T21:09:35Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:09:38Z Shinmera: erjoalgo: CLHs was written for implementors primarily. Not many are going to try implementing emacs. 2015-11-17T21:09:45Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-17T21:10:05Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T21:10:14Z Shinmera: Especially not by using its documentation as a "spec". 2015-11-17T21:12:07Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:12:43Z zotherstupidguy: hi there, new to lisp, what kind of projects lisp is usually used for? 2015-11-17T21:12:51Z Shinmera: Anything you desire. 2015-11-17T21:13:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:13:05Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T21:13:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:13:09Z zotherstupidguy: Shinmera i meant what kind of projects companies ask to be done in lisp 2015-11-17T21:13:25Z Shinmera: Anything they desire. 2015-11-17T21:13:34Z zotherstupidguy: you have cat to be kitten me 2015-11-17T21:13:43Z newfag joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:13:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-17T21:13:56Z mordocai: Companies as a rule don't ask software to be done with lisp because it isn't the hip language right now 2015-11-17T21:14:00Z Shinmera: Lisp is a general purpose language. There isn't really a niche it's especially suited for or whatever. 2015-11-17T21:14:32Z newfag: can someone tell a newcomer what's so good about MIT's SICP? the book looks pretty out-of-date, imo, and the Lisp it uses seems obsolete too 2015-11-17T21:14:43Z zotherstupidguy: mordocai cool, what kind of frameworks are hot in the lisp releam? 2015-11-17T21:14:46Z Shinmera: You probably won't see CL on systems with very tight memory and CPU constraints though. 2015-11-17T21:15:02Z mordocai: newfag: The core concepts it teaches are applicable and don't really go out of date 2015-11-17T21:15:08Z mordocai: It teaches CS not language 2015-11-17T21:15:15Z Bicyclidine: being old doesn't make things bad. SICP expects a lot more out of you than most programming books, using power series and such. 2015-11-17T21:15:23Z zotherstupidguy: Shinmera lisp is not good with memory? 2015-11-17T21:15:27Z Bicyclidine: But the lisp used is old. I think racket has a SICP mode, ask #scheme. 2015-11-17T21:15:32Z Shinmera: zotherstupidguy: CL is a bit language. 2015-11-17T21:15:38Z zotherstupidguy: meaning? 2015-11-17T21:15:48Z Shinmera: Meaning it takes some memory where you can stuff it all. 2015-11-17T21:16:04Z Bicyclidine: big language, presumably 2015-11-17T21:16:10Z Shinmera: You aren't going to get a lisp running if you have only a few megabytes of memory. 2015-11-17T21:16:13Z Shinmera: Err, *big, yes 2015-11-17T21:16:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:17:23Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:17:25Z newfag: can SICP be read in a month if read like 5-6 hrs a day? i have a lot of free time and will do the examples 2015-11-17T21:17:35Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:17:38Z newfag: it doesn't take a genius to finish SICP in a month, does it? 2015-11-17T21:18:01Z Xach: This is not a channel for discussing SICP. 2015-11-17T21:18:10Z Xach: It is for discussing Common Lisp. 2015-11-17T21:18:48Z newfag: i just typed in "#lisp" and this is what i got. does SICP not use lisp? 2015-11-17T21:18:52Z newdan: newfag: If you can actually stay focused for that much time, yeah, you should be able to finish it in a month 2015-11-17T21:19:02Z Shinmera: newdan: SICP uses Scheme. There's #scheme for that. 2015-11-17T21:19:12Z Shinmera: *newfag 2015-11-17T21:19:22Z Xach: #lisp is for Common Lisp. 2015-11-17T21:19:36Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T21:19:50Z newdan: newfag: To be clear: Common Lisp and Scheme are both "Lisps." So SICP does use Lisp, but a particular variant called Scheme, with its own community 2015-11-17T21:19:54Z phf: erjoalgo: it's not the purpose of clhs to give you understand, the purpose is to refine clarity to someone who already has partial understanding. 2015-11-17T21:20:15Z ingve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:20:57Z newfag: so "lisp" is an umbrella term like linux? 2015-11-17T21:21:10Z Shinmera: The lisp family of languages is, but lisp itself is not. 2015-11-17T21:21:40Z Shinmera: lisp is common lisp, which is a language in the lisp family, of which scheme is also part. 2015-11-17T21:22:18Z phf: erjoalgo: typically based on your level of rigor and dedication you'll be recommended PCL or common lisp the language second edition. the last one has a sufficient amount of narrative to guide you through understanding and also gives examples. 2015-11-17T21:22:20Z newdan: newfag: But yes people will use the term 'Lisp' to mean 'Lisp languages.' Clojure is another example of a popular Lisp that isn't Common Lisp 2015-11-17T21:23:09Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-17T21:23:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: Swimming now...) 2015-11-17T21:25:44Z dwchandler: There's "a lisp" which clearly means a language in the lisp family. Typically just "lisp" means CL, but there seem to be a fair number of people who object to that. I don't know why. 2015-11-17T21:25:46Z erjag: Xach: still puzzled why would it build with :verobse nil and fail otherwise 2015-11-17T21:25:57Z erjag: :verbose even 2015-11-17T21:29:50Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:29:52Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T21:29:52Z lispyone_ is now known as lispyone 2015-11-17T21:32:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T21:32:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:34:07Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:37:50Z Xach: erjag: easy enough. :verbose nil muffles warnings, and warnings are what break the build. 2015-11-17T21:40:24Z erjoalgo: phf well. I can summarize my original concern with these 3 questions, which I neither have time to answer nor to stick around for the discussion they might generate. 1 Does the lack of a centralized, didactic documentation, like what is usually available in other languages like python, javascript, etc make lisp less accessible to people? 2. Is this poor accessibility consciously designed, based on Lisp elitism? 3. Is Lisp elitism a good 2015-11-17T21:40:24Z erjoalgo: or bad thing? 2015-11-17T21:40:24Z Xach: erjag: are you a friend of varjag? 2015-11-17T21:40:31Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:40:59Z Xach: erjag: making things easy to use represents a lot of hard work. keeping things hard to use is the path of least resistance. 2015-11-17T21:41:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:41:10Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T21:41:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:41:20Z Xach: I think some things remain difficult to use because it is hard to make it easier, and not a lot of people are doing that work. 2015-11-17T21:41:30Z Xach: I'm glad some people are doing it, though. 2015-11-17T21:41:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:42:04Z Xach: I would like to help people to be able to dispense with solving side problems and get to solving real problems. 2015-11-17T21:42:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:42:59Z Xach: sorry, that was meant for erjoalgo. 2015-11-17T21:43:30Z Shinmera doesn't mind working on side problems most of the time, but then again he doesn't have to worry about getting paid either. 2015-11-17T21:43:37Z phf: erjoalgo: common lisp doesn't have a central authority (or a paid foundation) to provide any of those things. people who frequently rant for it usually have neither expertise nor desire to implement it, where's the majority of lispers don't care. i personally prefer status quo, because at higher levels of expertise it's actually better. also i'm an elitist, and find these populist discussions a waste of time 2015-11-17T21:44:14Z erjag is now known as varjagg 2015-11-17T21:44:29Z Xach: varjagg: hello!! with :verbose t is it easier to troubleshoot? 2015-11-17T21:44:38Z varjagg: yes indeed 2015-11-17T21:44:39Z varjagg: well 2015-11-17T21:45:06Z varjagg: is there a critical number of warnings that makes ql build fail, or..? 2015-11-17T21:45:13Z Shinmera: One. 2015-11-17T21:45:19Z varjagg: oh. 2015-11-17T21:45:39Z Xach: varjagg: the build testing is done with plain sbcl and asdf, no ql involved at all. 2015-11-17T21:45:45Z varjagg: ok 2015-11-17T21:45:50Z Xach: "regular" quicklisp masks things that make plain asdf fail 2015-11-17T21:45:58Z Xach: that is not a great thing 2015-11-17T21:46:30Z varjagg: these are type inference issues, but it might take some time until i untangle the whole thing 2015-11-17T21:46:46Z varjagg: inference/declaration 2015-11-17T21:47:12Z erjoalgo: Xach I have no idea who either varjagg or erjag are 2015-11-17T21:47:45Z varjagg: both are me 2015-11-17T21:48:16Z sid_cypher: oh hey elitist talk in the logs :3 and now detective stories. 2015-11-17T21:49:41Z erjoalgo: phf it is a good thing that you're mainly an elitist on Lisp, and not on other langagues, (like maybe English) 2015-11-17T21:49:42Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:50:04Z erjoalgo: that was meant as kidding, i now really have to get to work 2015-11-17T21:50:38Z phf: erjoalgo: i'm russian, my poor english comes with my elitist education ;) 2015-11-17T21:51:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:51:07Z erjoalgo: fair enough 2015-11-17T21:51:09Z erjoalgo left #lisp 2015-11-17T21:52:08Z phf: what a waste of time. 2015-11-17T21:52:38Z sid_cypher: phf: moscow by any chance? :) 2015-11-17T21:52:48Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-17T21:54:01Z phf: sid_cypher: on and off, but i'm an expat most of the time 2015-11-17T21:54:51Z sid_cypher: phf: oh cool. i grew up in st.-pb, but i'm more of a german now. 2015-11-17T21:55:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:55:30Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T21:56:35Z sid_cypher: the moscow question pertained to careless rudeness in an attempt to make a joke of it 2015-11-17T21:57:28Z Guest23871 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:58:03Z phf: hehe, indeed 2015-11-17T21:58:13Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-17T21:58:47Z moredhel: hey all, looking at lucerne, and am trying to bind to not localhost, anyone know how this can be done? 2015-11-17T21:58:57Z malice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T21:59:10Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T21:59:22Z sid_cypher: moredhel: i'll take a look, have it loaded in slime 2015-11-17T21:59:41Z moredhel: thanks :) 2015-11-17T22:00:37Z zotherstupidguy: is there somthing like rugged in lisp https://github.com/libgit2/rugged 2015-11-17T22:00:38Z zotherstupidguy: ? 2015-11-17T22:01:17Z newdan: Haha, on the topic of elitism in the CL community, just saw this joke in the Roswell wiki, about startup time on a factorial script. "This very simple program took 0.74s to print the answer. Considering that all Common Lispers can easily compute the factorial of 10 in less than 1 sec, it is unbearably slow." 2015-11-17T22:01:42Z zotherstupidguy: i dont get it 2015-11-17T22:01:56Z Shinmera: zotherstupidguy: Quick googling shows https://github.com/russell/cl-git/ 2015-11-17T22:02:00Z sid_cypher: moredhel: binding is done by servers behind Clack, and Clack doesn't seem to have API for your case. 2015-11-17T22:02:14Z zotherstupidguy: Shinmera thanks 2015-11-17T22:02:17Z newdan: zotherstupidguy: Computing the factorial of 10 is difficult 2015-11-17T22:02:38Z sid_cypher: moredhel: so to support your use case, you'd have to patch Clack, I think. 2015-11-17T22:03:05Z moredhel: hmm... that seems weird, how do they expect deployments? 2015-11-17T22:03:10Z sid_cypher: moredhel: why not jush proxy it with Apache or something? :) 2015-11-17T22:03:18Z evanvarvell joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:03:55Z moredhel: it's binding to localhost, and am using docker. 2015-11-17T22:04:33Z moredhel: hmm 2015-11-17T22:04:44Z moredhel: I think I have come across this issue before. 2015-11-17T22:05:01Z moredhel: I'm reading through clack at the moment... maybe there's a global I can change 2015-11-17T22:06:06Z resttime: SSH tunneling might be a solution if all else fails 2015-11-17T22:07:07Z raphaelss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:07:07Z arrubin quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-17T22:07:28Z moredhel: hehe, I suppose. but I feel that defeats the point of docker, also, I'm not sure how efficient that would be if traffic ever got semi-reasonable, (not currently an issue though) 2015-11-17T22:08:11Z pjb: newdan: no, even C programmers can compute 10!. What's harder, for C programmers, is 40! Still trivial for lispers: (defun f (x) (if (zerop x) 1 (* x (f (1- x))))) #| --> f |# (f 40) #| --> 815915283247897734345611269596115894272000000000 |# 2015-11-17T22:10:26Z gilez__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T22:11:06Z sid_cypher: moredhel: checked Clack sources (https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/tree/master/src/handler), no hostnames whatsoever involved in bindings 2015-11-17T22:11:24Z sid_cypher: except maybe usocket:*wildcard-host* 2015-11-17T22:11:33Z moredhel: yeah, been looking too. I looked at wookie's sources too... seems that the `bind` command is needed. I will try that 2015-11-17T22:12:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:12:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T22:12:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:12:20Z moredhel: so I could move to toot and see if that works 2015-11-17T22:13:24Z newfag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-17T22:13:53Z resttime: TCO version of factorial: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159750 2015-11-17T22:15:28Z sid_cypher: resttime: lol now make it explicitely CPS as well))) 2015-11-17T22:15:51Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-17T22:16:26Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:17:54Z newdan: ...I think the joke was Lispers could compute 10! *in their heads* in under a second, so a computer version that took .75s was far too slow 2015-11-17T22:18:58Z pjb: Well, we've computed (f 10) so often, that it comes by heart, indeed, 3628800. 2015-11-17T22:19:03Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Quit: I hate quit messages.) 2015-11-17T22:19:08Z sid_cypher: it took me a second to come up with 720 times the rest (7*6*5*4*3*2) 2015-11-17T22:19:20Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-17T22:19:37Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:19:47Z newdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:20:29Z sid_cypher: i always felt that (f 5) was better exactly because you can do it in your head 2015-11-17T22:21:49Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:21:55Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:23:30Z resttime: CPS style: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159750#1 2015-11-17T22:23:36Z sid_cypher: 720*7*6*120 is a bit harder. Ok, 720*7*720, but still, how do you cube 720 in your head 2015-11-17T22:24:22Z sid_cypher: resttime: this is beautiful. have all the cookies, please. 2015-11-17T22:24:32Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Quit: I hate quit messages.) 2015-11-17T22:24:52Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:25:08Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:25:45Z sid_cypher: speaking of elitism in English -- CPS style as in Continuation Passing Style style is a bit redundant :P 2015-11-17T22:26:10Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:26:33Z sweater is now known as Guest41771 2015-11-17T22:28:30Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-17T22:30:15Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-17T22:30:57Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:33:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:35:46Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T22:37:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:39:09Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:39:32Z gilez_ is now known as Guest38493 2015-11-17T22:39:45Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-17T22:41:59Z pbgc joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:42:13Z fourier quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-17T22:42:24Z lvh_ is now known as lvh 2015-11-17T22:42:27Z pbgc quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-17T22:42:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:42:31Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-17T22:42:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:42:51Z pjb: sid_cypher: just like the GPL license. 2015-11-17T22:45:46Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:46:20Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:50:11Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-17T22:50:14Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:51:50Z moredhel: sid_cypher: I may have gotten it: `remote-addr:`. some magic! 2015-11-17T22:53:43Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T22:55:50Z Guest38493 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T22:57:27Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-17T22:58:38Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-17T22:58:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-17T22:59:59Z jasom: moredhel: I think the parameter is backend-specific for clack, but not sure 2015-11-17T23:00:14Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-17T23:02:22Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:11:27Z cagmz quit 2015-11-17T23:12:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-17T23:12:51Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-17T23:16:06Z knobo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:21:54Z moredhel: jasom, what do you mean? 2015-11-17T23:22:01Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2015-11-17T23:24:12Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:24:36Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:24:57Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:26:24Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:26:37Z evanvarvell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T23:27:09Z mac_ifie_ quit 2015-11-17T23:29:35Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:31:41Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T23:36:29Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:36:51Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:37:22Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T23:38:55Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-17T23:39:36Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:40:05Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-17T23:42:14Z axe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-17T23:42:33Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:42:35Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-17T23:47:09Z jasom: moredhel: for telling the server which address to bind 2015-11-17T23:47:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:47:33Z moredhel: yeah, that's what I'm trying to do, so that I can access it off localhost. 2015-11-17T23:50:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:51:17Z Rav3n joined #lisp 2015-11-17T23:52:05Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-17T23:53:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T00:01:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-18T00:04:08Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T00:09:56Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T00:10:16Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T00:12:23Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T00:12:35Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T00:14:12Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T00:16:10Z Guest41771 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T00:19:20Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T00:29:41Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-18T00:38:13Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T00:38:32Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T00:39:11Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I think i'll need to add this to backend-handlers and clackup call 2015-11-18T01:17:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T01:19:48Z moredhel: no worries :), I just got my site deployed :p 2015-11-18T01:27:49Z sid_cypher: moredhel: i've read hunchentoot.lisp code some more - remote-addr field is what gets returned from clack, not what comes in, unfortunately 2015-11-18T01:28:26Z sid_cypher: that's why i've been searching for socket-opening code as "entry" 2015-11-18T01:34:31Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-18T01:34:37Z sid_cypher: the place to modify would be (apply #'make-instance 'clack-acceptor ...) in (defun run ...) 2015-11-18T01:35:35Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T01:37:57Z sid_cypher: moredhel: according to hunchentoot-1.2.34/acceptor.lisp, :address field can be used, just need to pass the argument from clackup to run to make-instance 2015-11-18T01:38:04Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T01:38:27Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-18T01:38:55Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T01:41:41Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T01:42:20Z sid_cypher: clack is LLGPL, so if i were to submit a patch, i'd license the code as... 2015-11-18T01:43:05Z sid_cypher: LLGPLL lol. That is, Lisp Lesser General Public License Lisense 2015-11-18T01:43:38Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T01:43:51Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T01:44:49Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T01:46:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-18T01:53:18Z cagmz quit 2015-11-18T02:04:35Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:06:31Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:06:31Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:08:46Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:09:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T02:12:06Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T02:15:11Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:15:11Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T02:15:11Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:19:51Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T02:21:17Z loke: Good morning Lisp 2015-11-18T02:24:32Z Xach: heloloke 2015-11-18T02:29:06Z loke: Hello Xach, what's happening? 2015-11-18T02:29:37Z Xach is using Lisp to draw t-shirt graphics 2015-11-18T02:29:47Z loke: Woohoo! :-) 2015-11-18T02:30:29Z loke: Actually, speaking of graphics. I was teaching my kids some programming and I really lack some interactive graphics library. Something like what you could do with the micros in the 80's. Just run simple draw commands and have things happening on the screen. 2015-11-18T02:30:35Z loke: Is there any such thing for Lisp? 2015-11-18T02:31:44Z Xach: i think taht would be very useful but i don't know of something super-streamlined 2015-11-18T02:32:00Z loke: I might write one then. Something based on SVG perhaps. 2015-11-18T02:32:12Z loke: I'm not sure what to base it umpon though. cl-gtk perhsp. 2015-11-18T02:32:14Z loke: perhaps. 2015-11-18T02:32:25Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:32:51Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-11-18T02:32:55Z ozihcs left #lisp 2015-11-18T02:33:40Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T02:35:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:44:52Z Xach: sdl seemed promising to me a while ago 2015-11-18T02:47:18Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T02:47:25Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:50:39Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T02:51:00Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T02:55:36Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T02:56:44Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T02:57:27Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-18T02:57:42Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:00:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T03:02:04Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:02:16Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T03:02:33Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:03:24Z pillton: loke: CommonQt is fine for that. 2015-11-18T03:04:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:05:00Z loke: pillton: Thanks. I'll take a look 2015-11-18T03:05:27Z pillton: loke: QPainter is what you need to look at. 2015-11-18T03:05:46Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T03:05:48Z pillton: The REPL part will be tricky. 2015-11-18T03:07:52Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:12:31Z Xach: does "fine" mean "type just a couple interactive commands and get a window that you can use simple commands to update"? 2015-11-18T03:15:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:16:10Z Guest41771 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T03:16:51Z loke: Exactly. 2015-11-18T03:17:12Z loke: I don't think I used the word "fine" though? 2015-11-18T03:17:31Z loke: Ah, pillton did 2015-11-18T03:20:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T03:21:56Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T03:24:03Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-18T03:24:31Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Why is this not on QL? 2015-11-18T04:04:42Z pjb: Read. 2015-11-18T04:04:46Z loke: Oh, ccl only. Yes? 2015-11-18T04:05:01Z pjb: Just for run-program. uiop:run-program is insufficient. 2015-11-18T04:05:30Z pjb: And it still needs some debugging and testing too, since I didn't know anything about spl before doing it. 2015-11-18T04:06:56Z loke: pjb: Which QL system is it in? 2015-11-18T04:07:04Z pjb: JavaBackEnd 2015-11-18T04:07:08Z loke: (ql:system-apropors "pgl") doesnt show anything 2015-11-18T04:07:19Z pjb: It's too new. 2015-11-18T04:07:23Z loke: Ah 2015-11-18T04:09:04Z pjb: actually, the graphic models in WIMPs are much more complicated than what we had on the micros of the 70s and early 80s. 2015-11-18T04:10:56Z pjb: pgl uses instanciated graphic objects (in the backend), this is more sophisticated than what we had on micros, which was basically just a bitmap that nothing but your program could clobber. 2015-11-18T04:11:35Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T04:14:36Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:15:56Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:20:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T04:22:34Z jasom: early ones didn't even have a bitmap 2015-11-18T04:23:04Z loke: pjb: For sure. I've done a lot of both ancient and modern graphics programming. 2015-11-18T04:23:31Z loke: But for people just learning, it would be nice to have somehting as simple as Logo but backed by a powerful language. 2015-11-18T04:23:53Z loke: CLogo 2015-11-18T04:23:55Z loke: :-) 2015-11-18T04:24:03Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:28:18Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:28:34Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T04:31:22Z harish__ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:36:06Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:37:05Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:37:13Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-18T04:41:32Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T04:41:46Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T04:41:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:47:39Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T04:48:38Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:49:01Z Zhivago: Is there any reason to expect logo to scale out to more powerful constructs? 2015-11-18T04:49:18Z Zhivago: The most interesting logo that I saw was a parallel dialect, but even there ... 2015-11-18T04:49:54Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-18T04:50:29Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:50:54Z psy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T04:52:10Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:53:39Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-18T04:53:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-18T04:55:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T04:56:44Z eazar001 is now known as predicate 2015-11-18T04:57:19Z predicate is now known as eazar001 2015-11-18T04:57:58Z beach appears to have missed the interesting and deep conversation about parentheses in Lisp. 2015-11-18T04:58:38Z psy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T05:02:07Z loke: Zhivago: Well, all I really want is to use my good old CL, and then add some LEFT, RIGHT, etc... commands. 2015-11-18T05:02:27Z loke: Just a small library thgat drawns in a GTK canvas, I was thinking. 2015-11-18T05:02:34Z loke: "that draws" 2015-11-18T05:06:25Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:06:57Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-18T05:07:00Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2015-11-18T05:07:18Z vydd quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-18T05:09:25Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T05:10:36Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:11:31Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:12:23Z beach: pjb: I believe the most common term in English for the kind of educational institutions you are talking about is "vocational school" or "trade school": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_school 2015-11-18T05:16:50Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:19:07Z pillton: I'm surprised vocational education isn't compulsory in all workplaces now. 2015-11-18T05:19:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:20:06Z beach: Can you elaborate on that? 2015-11-18T05:20:23Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:21:06Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:21:37Z pillton: I'm taking aim at the sentence "rather than aim to provide academic education for students pursuing careers in white-collar disciplines." 2015-11-18T05:23:04Z pillton: The assumption that a single university degree is all that is required to work in these jobs for your entire working life is false. 2015-11-18T05:23:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:24:31Z beach: Sure, I can agree with that. Though, people with a sufficiently advanced degree are supposed to know how to learn new things on their own. 2015-11-18T05:25:27Z beach: Granted, those people (with a PhD) are not typically hired by industry. 2015-11-18T05:26:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:27:58Z alchemis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T05:28:34Z cmoneylulz quit 2015-11-18T05:30:49Z zaquest_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:31:04Z linoge quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T05:31:08Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:33:30Z zyg joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:34:59Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:35:59Z zyg: In (setf (nth n lst) nil), surely NTH preserves the identity of all cons? (not sure I phrase this correct, identity meaning, no cons in that list is replaced/removed from implementation memory). 2015-11-18T05:36:27Z Bike: yeah i have no idea what you mean, sorry. 2015-11-18T05:36:43Z Bike: well, if you mean none of the conses are replaced, then yes that's true. 2015-11-18T05:36:56Z pillton: It says in the definition of nth. 2015-11-18T05:36:58Z pillton: clhs nth 2015-11-18T05:36:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 2015-11-18T05:37:10Z zyg: I only looked at (describe 'nth) so far. 2015-11-18T05:37:15Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:37:31Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-18T05:37:37Z beach: zyg: You should always look at the reference. 2015-11-18T05:38:02Z loke: The clhs entry specifically defines the behaviour of (setf nth) 2015-11-18T05:38:38Z loke: Speaking of setf. Do you guys use (SET CAR) or RPLACA? 2015-11-18T05:38:48Z loke: I mean SETF 2015-11-18T05:38:57Z beach: SETF always. 2015-11-18T05:39:50Z loke: Even in an argument to, say, mapc? (mapc #'rplaca ...) vs. (mapc #'(setf car) ...) 2015-11-18T05:39:58Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-18T05:40:39Z beach: Well, no. As I recall, the Common Lisp HyperSpec does not guarantee that the function #'(setf car) exists. 2015-11-18T05:40:42Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:40:48Z beach: It might be a SETF expander. 2015-11-18T05:40:50Z loke: beach: Really? 2015-11-18T05:40:52Z pillton just went to look that up. 2015-11-18T05:40:57Z zyg: ah! nth translates into (car (nthcdr x)) so the outermost place operation is car on those CONS (which is x), then it would be preserved (is my understanding). 2015-11-18T05:41:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:41:08Z loke: zyg: Correct 2015-11-18T05:43:33Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:43:34Z zyg: Thanks for the quick response! I'm going to try to hook up clhs in slime. 2015-11-18T05:43:36Z beach: clhs 5.1.1 2015-11-18T05:43:37Z specbot: Overview of Places and Generalized Reference: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm 2015-11-18T05:44:16Z beach: "In general, the exact macro expansion of a setf form is not guaranteed and can even be implementation-dependent; all that is guaranteed is that the expansion is an update form that works for that particular implementation, ..." 2015-11-18T05:44:28Z loke: zyg: M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup 2015-11-18T05:44:35Z Bike: it's pretty much gonna be car of nthcdr, though. 2015-11-18T05:48:43Z Guest72630 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:48:45Z solyd quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-18T05:49:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T05:55:49Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-18T05:56:39Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:58:26Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T05:59:54Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:00:09Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T06:01:23Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:09:05Z Mhoram quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-18T06:09:50Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:09:53Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:13:15Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:15:54Z cyraxjoe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T06:16:11Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:16:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:16:43Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T06:16:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:17:09Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:18:17Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:19:12Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T06:19:13Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T06:19:37Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:20:47Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:21:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:23:30Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:25:49Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-18T06:27:13Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:27:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:28:40Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-18T06:40:43Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:41:35Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T06:47:04Z loke: I wanted to test somehting with CLISP for the first time in, well, ages. 2015-11-18T06:47:12Z loke: I can't quickload anything anymore. ASDF problem? 2015-11-18T06:47:23Z loke: "You need ASDF >= 2.31.1 to load this system correctly." 2015-11-18T06:50:00Z paul0` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T06:51:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T06:51:22Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-18T06:54:48Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:55:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:56:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:56:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T06:56:50Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T06:56:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:00:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:02:21Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:05:36Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:10:03Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:13:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:15:56Z eli joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:15:59Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:16:47Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:19:32Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:20:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:24:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:27:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:28:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:28:30Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:28:47Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:29:43Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T07:34:01Z jegaxd26 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:38:58Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:43:51Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:44:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T07:44:49Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-18T07:48:33Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:48:44Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:54:21Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:57:15Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-18T07:59:23Z eli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T08:00:33Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:01:50Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:02:03Z zaquest_ is now known as zaquest 2015-11-18T08:03:35Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:05:58Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T08:10:57Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T08:11:08Z zyg: loke: it works over here (clisp 2.49, quicklisp/asdf.lisp=2.26), can quickload "postmodern" 2015-11-18T08:11:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:12:28Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:18:40Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T08:19:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T08:20:30Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:20:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:21:25Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:21:31Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T08:25:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:25:17Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T08:25:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:25:17Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T08:26:50Z loke: zyg: but can you quickload "iolib"? 2015-11-18T08:29:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:29:13Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:29:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T08:30:44Z zyg: loke: it seems so: http://paste.lisp.org/+3FAB 2015-11-18T08:31:46Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T08:32:01Z loke: That's really weird 2015-11-18T08:33:04Z loke: What does (asdf:asdf-version) show immediately after starting clisp? 2015-11-18T08:33:54Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:36:18Z zyg: loke: asdf is not available 2015-11-18T08:36:33Z loke: OK, so it's actually pulling in 3.x from QL 2015-11-18T08:37:34Z loke: Did you compile it from source? 2015-11-18T08:38:04Z zyg: loke: I guess quicklisp/setup.lisp is loading quicklisp/asdf.lisp, which version says 2.26. Yes I've compiled clisp from source. 2015-11-18T08:38:20Z loke: I'm trying the same now 2015-11-18T08:39:11Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T08:39:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:39:44Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T08:39:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:39:47Z zyg: loke: you can't try changing linkkit? 2015-11-18T08:39:49Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:46:12Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:52:53Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:54:19Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:54:23Z flambard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T08:55:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-18T08:58:04Z adam789654123 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T08:58:46Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T09:02:53Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:03:14Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:04:02Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T09:04:03Z loke: zyg: I just tried recomiling clisp from the latest sources 2015-11-18T09:04:16Z loke: I deleted all the quicklisp caches as well as asdf caches 2015-11-18T09:04:24Z loke: I deleted all traces of asdf 2.x I could find 2015-11-18T09:04:31Z loke: and it _STILL_ loads the old sdf 2015-11-18T09:04:33Z loke: asdf 2015-11-18T09:04:42Z loke: where the hell does it find it? Is it maked into the clisp binary? 2015-11-18T09:04:44Z loke: baked 2015-11-18T09:05:18Z Shinmera: loke: You wanted a very simple way to play around with drawing stuff- here you go: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/D6# 2015-11-18T09:05:45Z loke: Shinmera: Woah. Thanks! 2015-11-18T09:06:00Z zyg: loke: not any initrc file in $HOME? 2015-11-18T09:06:13Z loke: zyg: Nope. All that is there is the QL initialisation 2015-11-18T09:07:55Z zyg: loke: so (find-package "ASDF") is there directly on clisp startup, that's strange. 2015-11-18T09:08:42Z loke: wtf 2015-11-18T09:08:53Z loke: I completely deleted the asdf from the clisp source, and rebuild from scratch 2015-11-18T09:08:59Z loke: _still_ getting 2.26 2015-11-18T09:09:08Z loke: Where the hell does it load it from? 2015-11-18T09:09:18Z Shinmera: QL, maybe? 2015-11-18T09:09:59Z zyg: loke: 2.26 was the same asdf version I got to load "iolib" b.t.w. That was loaded through quicklisp. 2015-11-18T09:10:21Z loke: When I M-. on an asdf function in SLIME, it tells me: "No source infomration available for:" and then a directory ~/quicklisp/cache/asdf-fasls/0tcb2x/asdf.fas 2015-11-18T09:10:45Z loke: If I delete the cache directory and restart clisp, it recreates that file. 2015-11-18T09:10:54Z loke: So yes, obviously it finds 2.26 somwhere in QL 2015-11-18T09:11:26Z loke: now I will resintsall QL from scratch 2015-11-18T09:12:35Z loke: zyg: When was the last time you updated QL? 2015-11-18T09:13:22Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T09:14:21Z zyg: loke: 2013 the directory says 2015-11-18T09:14:38Z loke: zyg: so you're running 2 year old versions? 2015-11-18T09:14:57Z loke: You've never run (ql:update-client) and (ql:update-all-dists) ? 2015-11-18T09:15:54Z zyg: loke: yes it's old. No all I know and use is (load "quicklisp/setup") and (ql:quickload "system") 2015-11-18T09:16:17Z loke: zyg: that means that even the libraries you load will be 2 years olg 2015-11-18T09:18:04Z zyg: loke: oh I didn't know that. Thanks for the info! 2015-11-18T09:18:04Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:21:23Z loke: OK, I figured it out 2015-11-18T09:21:31Z loke: Quicklisp itself comes with the old asdf version 2015-11-18T09:21:45Z loke: and clisp doesn't have one, so it falls back to the QL version, which can't load a lot of packages 2015-11-18T09:22:55Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T09:24:58Z Niac_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T09:24:58Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:25:25Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:27:59Z Niac quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T09:28:39Z mea-culp` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T09:31:13Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:31:24Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T09:31:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:35:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-18T09:36:52Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-11-18T09:40:01Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:41:44Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T09:42:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:44:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T09:45:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:48:46Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:51:06Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:51:31Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:52:12Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-18T09:52:42Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T09:53:08Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:01:33Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:04:30Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:05:23Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:06:07Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-18T10:10:16Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:10:55Z alex6407 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T10:14:05Z loke gives up on getting potato to run on CLISP 2015-11-18T10:14:11Z loke: It's too borked 2015-11-18T10:16:30Z wemeetagain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:19:30Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:20:15Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:20:19Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:23:24Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2015-11-18T10:24:35Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:25:06Z wgslayer quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T10:30:04Z Shinmera: loke: Let me know if you can use my painting snippet. 2015-11-18T10:30:19Z loke: Shinmera: I will try it tonioght :-) 2015-11-18T10:30:28Z Shinmera: Alright. 2015-11-18T10:32:01Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T10:32:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:36:28Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-18T10:40:05Z Moyst joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:40:46Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:42:55Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:45:19Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:45:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T10:46:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:51:32Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T10:51:59Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:53:43Z huza joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:54:52Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:54:52Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T10:54:52Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T10:56:19Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T11:02:35Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-18T11:03:17Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:04:55Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:08:34Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:09:41Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:09:42Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:14:06Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:15:14Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:16:13Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:16:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:17:11Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:17:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:18:22Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T11:18:55Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:20:42Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:21:34Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:23:26Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:24:26Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:24:38Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T11:24:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:24:44Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T11:24:58Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:25:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:25:10Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:25:38Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:25:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:28:11Z sid_cypher: zyg's no-updates policy made me think - how do you load specific versions of a system? (asdf:load-system "braculon" :version "0.0.1") just matches version 0.1.2 and that may be unwanted 2015-11-18T11:28:29Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:33:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:34:28Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-11-18T11:35:06Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:36:10Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:37:12Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T11:38:06Z rudolfochrist: I've asked this question 1 year ago as well. See: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21663113/common-lisp-asdf-depends-on-specific-version# 2015-11-18T11:38:36Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:38:47Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:38:51Z sid_cypher: rudolfochrist: thank you, that makes it clear. 2015-11-18T11:39:54Z rudolfochrist: you're welcome :) 2015-11-18T11:40:07Z wgslayer quit (Quit: wgslayer) 2015-11-18T11:43:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:44:06Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:45:22Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:46:26Z dlowe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-11-18T11:47:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T11:47:54Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:49:24Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T11:49:32Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T11:49:33Z _cosmona` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T11:49:34Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T11:50:12Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:50:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:54:51Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T11:54:59Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-18T12:01:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:01:15Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:02:48Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T12:03:26Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:04:42Z leafybasil quit 2015-11-18T12:04:51Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:06:14Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:08:30Z leafybasil quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T12:09:13Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-18T12:10:03Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:11:09Z larme joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:11:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:11:57Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:12:39Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:13:17Z mission712 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:17:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:17:31Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-18T12:17:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:21:01Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:22:13Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:22:51Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:27:22Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:27:25Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-18T12:28:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:28:38Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:30:23Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:36:21Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:36:21Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:37:47Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:39:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T12:42:12Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:42:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:44:05Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:45:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:46:06Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:46:06Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T12:50:01Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:52:23Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T12:55:49Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T12:55:51Z _cosmona` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T12:55:53Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:57:03Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:57:30Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T12:58:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:58:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T12:59:24Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:01:18Z arademaker: I am using PAIP in a course but reorganizing the code into packages. One general problem is how to deal with symbols in diferent packages. If I have the symbol '?is in the pattern package but want to evoke the (pat-match '(x = (?is ?n numberp)) '(x = 34)) in another package, the ?is should be interpreted as the pattern:'?is. My current solution is https://github.com/arademaker/LP-2015.2/blob/master/paip/pattern.lisp#L121, any other 2015-11-18T13:01:18Z arademaker: better solution? 2015-11-18T13:02:36Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:02:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:04:44Z TDog_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:07:13Z Beluki joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:09:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T13:10:05Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T13:11:02Z Xach: arademaker: that looks all right 2015-11-18T13:12:01Z knobo1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T13:13:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:16:06Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:16:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:19:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:22:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-18T13:22:24Z arademaker: thanks @Xach 2015-11-18T13:25:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:25:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:25:46Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:27:00Z zyg quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-18T13:29:21Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:29:37Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:32:28Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-18T13:35:49Z dTal_ is now known as dTal 2015-11-18T13:37:53Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T13:39:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:40:07Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:40:53Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:41:54Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:44:47Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-18T13:45:18Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:45:26Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:46:39Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:46:39Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:47:59Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T13:47:59Z flambard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:48:08Z flambard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:50:14Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:50:15Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:50:38Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T13:50:55Z phoe_krk quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T13:55:10Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T13:56:19Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:56:21Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:56:55Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-18T13:57:39Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:01:30Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:02:13Z alex6407 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:03:36Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:07:41Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:10:16Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:11:00Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:12:12Z alex6407 is now known as lxpz 2015-11-18T14:18:28Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T14:19:37Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:21:14Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:22:57Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:23:23Z rudolfochrist quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T14:24:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:25:04Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:26:01Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:28:07Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:28:41Z knobo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:29:05Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T14:29:43Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T14:30:25Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:30:45Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:31:12Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:31:39Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T14:32:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:33:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:34:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:35:03Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T14:35:11Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:38:09Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:38:35Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:39:25Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:40:20Z rudolfochrist quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T14:42:00Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T14:43:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:45:11Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:45:38Z loke_: I'm looking at the bordeaux-threads implementation of condition variables for CCL. If I read thie correctly, there seems to be some bad race condidtions there. Either that, or I have completely misunderstood what's going on. Anyone know anyhting about that? 2015-11-18T14:47:19Z Zhivago: Well, condition variables are intrinsically racy. 2015-11-18T14:47:30Z Zhivago: Is this a question of fairness or correctness? 2015-11-18T14:50:21Z lispyone_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-18T14:54:20Z tralala quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T14:54:37Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T14:55:46Z loke_: Zhivago: Correctness 2015-11-18T14:59:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:01:33Z gilez_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:01:57Z gilez_ is now known as Guest6110 2015-11-18T15:02:08Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:04:19Z loke_: Hmm, still thinking about whether or not my use case can actually trigger this. 2015-11-18T15:11:00Z loke_: Yes. I think there is a real race condition in it. 2015-11-18T15:11:16Z loke_: Who is the maintainer of bordeaux-threads? 2015-11-18T15:11:22Z pjb: loke_: there's also https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/ipcode 2015-11-18T15:11:39Z pjb: loke_: but it would require an update of clx for the new X11. 2015-11-18T15:11:58Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:15:59Z blubjr` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:17:12Z Guest6110 is now known as gilez 2015-11-18T15:17:19Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T15:17:59Z blubjr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T15:18:24Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:18:51Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:19:07Z pjb: loke_: AFAIUI, the condition variables are correctly implemented as _specified_. It is true that sometimes the behavior may be surprising. 2015-11-18T15:19:10Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T15:19:59Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T15:21:23Z loke_: pjb: Yeah, I looked into the implemnetation a bit further and I realised my mistake. 2015-11-18T15:21:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:21:53Z loke_: A condition notify will increast a semaphor by one. A condition wait will drop it by one, or wait if it's zero. 2015-11-18T15:22:52Z pjb: loke_: have a look at the package :com.informatimago.clext.gate 2015-11-18T15:23:01Z loke_: Clever, but makes my life a bit difficult, since I'm trying to implement a condition-boradcast. I've done it for SBCL, CLISP and ABCL, which has real condition variables. 2015-11-18T15:23:07Z loke_: But for CCL I'm stumped. 2015-11-18T15:23:20Z loke_: My async version of cl-rabbit won't work without it. 2015-11-18T15:24:08Z pjb: loke_: :com.informatimago.clext.gate implements basically this broadcast: all threads are unlocked when the gate is signaled. 2015-11-18T15:26:15Z loke_: pjb: Another new package not yet on QL? :-) 2015-11-18T15:28:47Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:31:36Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-18T15:31:54Z pjb: loke_: quicklisp has a barrier of access, in that you have to make sure it compiles on sbcl… 2015-11-18T15:32:24Z pjb: but clext.gate is already in quicklisp, it's in com.informatimago. 2015-11-18T15:32:33Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:32:40Z pjb: or com.informatimago.clext or com.informatimago.clext.pipe 2015-11-18T15:32:42Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:32:52Z pjb: I have russian dolls systems :-) 2015-11-18T15:33:09Z pjb: (by yes above was about ipcode). 2015-11-18T15:33:35Z pjb: :com.informatimago.clext.gate is a package, not a system. 2015-11-18T15:34:10Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:34:23Z loke_: WHat is the system name? 2015-11-18T15:34:52Z pjb: :com.informatimago.clext.pipe or :com.informatimago.clext or :com.informatimago will load it. 2015-11-18T15:36:39Z m0li quit (Quit: (Lisper for ever \o/!!!)) 2015-11-18T15:40:02Z loke_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159823 2015-11-18T15:41:39Z jegaxd26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:44:42Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T15:49:08Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:50:33Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:50:50Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:51:49Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:53:24Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:55:01Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:57:11Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:57:15Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T15:57:29Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:58:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T15:58:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T15:59:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-18T15:59:14Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T16:00:12Z Yanez quit (Quit: Yanez) 2015-11-18T16:03:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:03:36Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:04:21Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:04:46Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:05:07Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T16:07:28Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-18T16:07:29Z lmj joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:07:34Z askatasuna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T16:09:50Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:14:34Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:14:59Z sweater is now known as Guest30769 2015-11-18T16:18:49Z oceanpollen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T16:23:55Z flip214 is now known as flip211 2015-11-18T16:24:04Z pjb: Well, quicklisp is strange. 2015-11-18T16:24:52Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:25:19Z pjb: Get it from the github repo directly. 2015-11-18T16:28:17Z flambard_ quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-18T16:29:54Z lmj quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-18T16:30:43Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:32:30Z pjb: it's in the quicklisp branch, so I guess quicklisp didn't take it in last release. It'll be for the next. 2015-11-18T16:32:40Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:33:37Z shka: hi 2015-11-18T16:34:21Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T16:35:26Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T16:39:13Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-18T16:40:59Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:41:23Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:42:53Z TMM quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T16:44:04Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:44:27Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:44:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T16:45:21Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T16:47:02Z abaugher quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-18T16:49:03Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:49:12Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:50:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:51:56Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:53:12Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T16:55:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T16:57:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:58:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T16:58:53Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:00:14Z jasom: loke_: you can implement a condition broadcast fairly easily with 1 mutex and 1 semaphore, assuming the semaphore supports querying for if there are any waiters on the semaphore 2015-11-18T17:02:28Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:02:41Z jasom: loke_: pseudocode here: http://paste.lisp.org/+3FBU 2015-11-18T17:02:56Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:04:10Z jasom: And yes, the implementation of ConditionWait is correct... 90% of people who see that argue about it since its very odd to acquire and then immediately release a mutex, but it guarantees ConditionNotify will execute in bounded time. 2015-11-18T17:07:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:08:39Z jasom: Hmm, ccl doesn't have a check for waiters, but it does have a non-blocking wait if you do (timed-wait-on-semaphore s 0) and you can use that instead, at the cost of just one extra signal-semaphore. 2015-11-18T17:09:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:12:07Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:12:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:12:32Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:13:20Z shka_: do you work on BT? 2015-11-18T17:13:31Z jasom: BT is a bit crufty 2015-11-18T17:13:45Z jasom: And no I don't 2015-11-18T17:13:52Z shka_: oh, ok 2015-11-18T17:13:54Z Guest30769 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:13:58Z jasom: I should though, I have a half-dozen fixes for issues I found in it. 2015-11-18T17:14:11Z jasom: need to generalize them and submit patches 2015-11-18T17:14:15Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:14:45Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T17:14:45Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:17:36Z Shinmera: The clhs says for OPEN :if-exists :overwrite "Output operations on the stream destructively modify the existing file. If direction is :io the file is opened in a bidirectional mode that allows both reading and writing. The file pointer is initially positioned at the beginning of the file; however, the file is not truncated back to length zero when it is opened." Does this mean that if I write a string less than 2015-11-18T17:17:38Z Shinmera: the original length it might contain "garbage" at the end? If so, how would I go about truncating it after writing? 2015-11-18T17:18:02Z shka_: that would be really nice! 2015-11-18T17:18:44Z oGMo: why not just truncate it to start with? 2015-11-18T17:18:53Z Shinmera: Because I first need to read it out. 2015-11-18T17:19:05Z oGMo: read, close, open 2015-11-18T17:19:09Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:19:16Z Shinmera: Right, but I was wondering if I could do it in one go. 2015-11-18T17:19:25Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:19:28Z jurov: linux has ftruncate() call if you insist 2015-11-18T17:19:36Z jurov: but obv not portable 2015-11-18T17:19:45Z Shinmera: I'm only interested in what I can do with CL directly. 2015-11-18T17:20:31Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T17:21:38Z jurov: also, usual approach is to write to new temporary file and then rename it 2015-11-18T17:22:07Z oGMo: yeah doesn't look like .. and yeah, _actually_ truncating files is probably rather rare 2015-11-18T17:22:22Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:22:40Z Shinmera: Well given that the CLHS doesn't seem to say anywhere that you have to respect any length limits while writing data with :overwrite, I'd assume an implementation has to create a temporary file anyhow. 2015-11-18T17:22:44Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T17:22:55Z oGMo: even overwriting the original is probably bad, e.g. don't upgrade libc by overwriting the old one ;) 2015-11-18T17:23:06Z Shinmera: Or it might error. I don't know. I'm kind of miffed that this is so vague. 2015-11-18T17:23:42Z oem joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:23:54Z oGMo: IME :overwrite will leave stuff at the end; it may not be specified in CLHS, but it happens, so if you want to avoid it ... 2015-11-18T17:23:57Z jurov: linux won't allow you to inplace write to a binary that is being executed 2015-11-18T17:24:11Z Shinmera: oGMo: But what if you write more data than the file is long? 2015-11-18T17:24:33Z oGMo: Shinmera: well then it just writes more to the file. assuming hte OS isn't weird about it 2015-11-18T17:24:33Z jurov: then the file gets extended 2015-11-18T17:24:48Z Shinmera: Hm. I thought that that would cause problems. 2015-11-18T17:24:59Z oGMo: jurov: are you sure? _windows_ won't, but i'm pretty sure you can blow away anything you want in linux 2015-11-18T17:25:12Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:25:29Z jurov: oGMo: sure. that's why everyone does the "write new, rename" 2015-11-18T17:26:10Z jurov: and i don't get the problem with :io mode 2015-11-18T17:26:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:26:50Z jurov: above problems aside, OS would happily accept you writing anywhere in the existing file, and if you go past the end, it extends it 2015-11-18T17:26:59Z jurov: that's how files always worked 2015-11-18T17:27:03Z dbrock- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T17:27:18Z Shinmera: Right. 2015-11-18T17:27:19Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:27:34Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-18T17:27:36Z Shinmera: But I can't see a CL function to truncate the file after, so it's not suitable for my case. 2015-11-18T17:28:22Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:28:24Z jurov: well, i guess no one implemented it as it is too amrginal and system dependent 2015-11-18T17:28:30Z jurov: *marginal 2015-11-18T17:28:36Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:28:40Z Shinmera: I'm just surprised given that the CLHS specifically mentions truncation. 2015-11-18T17:28:49Z jurov: every OS supports truncation on opening 2015-11-18T17:29:00Z jurov: and it's useful 2015-11-18T17:29:05Z jurov: so it ended in CL 2015-11-18T17:29:49Z jasom: loke_: and here it is ccl: http://paste.lisp.org/+3FBU/1 2015-11-18T17:31:29Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:32:18Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:32:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T17:32:34Z Ardeshir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T17:35:51Z lmj joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:35:57Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:40:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T17:42:08Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-18T17:44:30Z zygentoma joined #lisp 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computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-18T18:05:54Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:07:05Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:07:12Z lmj quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-18T18:07:15Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T18:08:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:09:15Z pjb: Shinmera: you can also just write an end of file mark so you won't try to read beyond it. 2015-11-18T18:09:23Z Ardeshir left #lisp 2015-11-18T18:09:33Z pjb: Shinmera: you can easily add a deleted flag to your records. 2015-11-18T18:09:41Z pjb: and just skip them when reading. 2015-11-18T18:10:03Z Shinmera: The files I'm working with are processed by other tools as well. 2015-11-18T18:10:45Z armour joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:11:18Z pjb: Ah, if we had multiple versions, you could be reading one version while writing the new, of the same file at the same time. 2015-11-18T18:11:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:11:47Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T18:11:47Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T18:12:59Z abaugher quit (Quit: "Gone fishin'") 2015-11-18T18:13:19Z pjb: oGMo: on the other hand, writing over a file doesn't change its permission, owner and group. 2015-11-18T18:14:13Z pjb: oGMo: so sometime you want just that, and avoid even mv $file $oldfile && process < $oldfile > $file, but instead cp $file $oldfile process < $oldfile > $file 2015-11-18T18:14:31Z pjb: s/e p/e && p/ 2015-11-18T18:15:34Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:16:36Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:16:56Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:17:56Z pjb: Shinmera: notice that ftruncate: 4.4BSD, SVr4, POSIX.1-2001 (these calls first appeared in 4.2BSD). 4.2 was introduced only in 1983, most systems at the time just didn't have it. 2015-11-18T18:18:04Z pjb: most unix systems. 2015-11-18T18:18:36Z pjb: and at the same time, MS-DOS used ^Z to mark the end of file, right. 2015-11-18T18:19:19Z badkins quit 2015-11-18T18:20:49Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-18T18:21:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:21:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:24:24Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:29:04Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:29:13Z armour quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T18:33:27Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:34:27Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:36:21Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:36:39Z sid_cypher: if there's no way to do it from the lisp implementation itself, since the functionality is OS-dependent and not in spec, don't we need a portable library for that? 2015-11-18T18:37:22Z sid_cypher: like sockets and threads, but calling external OS-specific code 2015-11-18T18:37:23Z oGMo: or just open it :supersede :P 2015-11-18T18:37:37Z oGMo: if you want posix stuff, there's osicat or whatever 2015-11-18T18:37:38Z Shinmera: supersede empties it before you can read it 2015-11-18T18:37:51Z oGMo: Shinmera: thus, again, you read it first :p 2015-11-18T18:38:12Z Shinmera: Yeah, but again, the question was specifically about doing it in one go. 2015-11-18T18:38:26Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:38:26Z oGMo: and the answer is "don't do that" 2015-11-18T18:38:47Z Shinmera: That's not an answer, it's advice. 2015-11-18T18:39:24Z oGMo: that is _the_ answer because there are numerous really good reason for reopening, and zero reasons for not 2015-11-18T18:39:31Z oGMo: (or using a temp file) 2015-11-18T18:39:36Z sid_cypher: what a practical cutoff to a more theoretical interest 2015-11-18T18:39:39Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:40:03Z oGMo: sid_cypher: having an actual problem worth solving is my cutoff heh 2015-11-18T18:40:04Z Shinmera: One practical reason is to keep the file locked so no other process can intervene. 2015-11-18T18:40:17Z oGMo: that's not possible anyway 2015-11-18T18:40:50Z sid_cypher: oGMo: as long as your OS supports that, why not? 2015-11-18T18:40:58Z oGMo: a temp file guarantees that at least you get a unique file and can write it all, and replace it at once 2015-11-18T18:41:37Z pjb: Shinmera: having a file openned doesn't lock it, on most systems. 2015-11-18T18:41:40Z oGMo: sid_cypher: but CL does not support that, and i'm not sure there's a reasonable way to do so on most OS's anyway 2015-11-18T18:41:48Z foom: pjb: it was in BSD 4.1c too. :) 2015-11-18T18:42:11Z Shinmera: pjb: Sure. I'm just presenting a reason why one might want to do it in one go. 2015-11-18T18:42:12Z pjb: "c"? Isn't that a backport? 2015-11-18T18:42:13Z oGMo: e.g., all the posix locking mechanisms are voluntary and mostly crap 2015-11-18T18:43:12Z foom: I'm don't know for sure., but the unix history repo has 4.2 as based on 4.1c. 2015-11-18T18:43:20Z Shinmera: It's not a problem for me, but I like knowing what's possible and what isn't irregardless of perceived practicality. 2015-11-18T18:43:31Z pjb: foom: ok, then you might send a doc patch to linux :-) 2015-11-18T18:43:43Z pjb: or is it glibc? 2015-11-18T18:43:49Z pjb: even better. 2015-11-18T18:43:51Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:43:58Z sid_cypher: oGMo: while I agree that CL spec doesn't have that, with FFI to C interfaces everything should be possible) 2015-11-18T18:44:27Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:44:51Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:45:10Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:45:17Z pjb: sid_cypher: I would say, write a CDR and have it implemented on the CL implementations, because you may have surprise if you do stuff on the POSIX level under the implementations. 2015-11-18T18:45:58Z pjb: sid_cypher: eg. an implementation could have a buffer that goes beyond the truncation, and that could be written after you truncate it when you close the file, rendering your truncation partial at best. 2015-11-18T18:47:13Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:47:27Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:47:44Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:48:01Z sid_cypher: pjb: i'm sorry, what's a CDR? 2015-11-18T18:49:31Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-18T18:49:40Z sid_cypher: oh, Common Lisp Document Repository. 2015-11-18T18:58:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:58:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T18:58:55Z axe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:58:56Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T18:59:13Z Denommus quit (Quit: rebooting) 2015-11-18T19:00:11Z sid_cypher: i have never seen :cdr-n items in my SBCL's *features*, so :cdr-14 is definitely not supported :) 2015-11-18T19:04:33Z pjb: Some of the CDR can be provided as libraries. But truncating an open file stream cannot. 2015-11-18T19:04:52Z jasom: sid_cypher: iolib implements a lot of posix but only works on linux and bsd on ccl and sbcl IIRC 2015-11-18T19:05:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:06:51Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:08:05Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T19:08:29Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:08:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:10:15Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:11:30Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T19:16:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:17:05Z armour joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:19:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T19:19:46Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-18T19:23:42Z ecraven quit (Quit: bye) 2015-11-18T19:23:52Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:24:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T19:25:54Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:26:01Z impaktor_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:27:44Z impaktor_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T19:33:40Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:34:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:40:43Z sid_cypher: jasom: yes, thank you. Funny thing - iolib fails to build on gentoo because it relies on a small posix-compatibility lib not present in package manager. 2015-11-18T19:41:15Z mitzelflick joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:41:37Z mitzelflick: it seems no one ever redoes an app from scratch with what they have learned 2015-11-18T19:41:41Z mitzelflick: people just pile stuff 2015-11-18T19:41:51Z mitzelflick: is there a way to encourage redoing? 2015-11-18T19:41:54Z mitzelflick: getting things right? 2015-11-18T19:42:07Z sid_cypher: mitzelflick: reduce hardware power 2015-11-18T19:42:11Z mordocai: Infinite motivation + no profit motive? 2015-11-18T19:42:37Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T19:42:38Z mitzelflick: heh 2015-11-18T19:42:59Z mitzelflick: it alos seems that changing 1 thing out of 100 can break 99 things 2015-11-18T19:43:13Z mitzelflick: shouldnt things be writen to be independant? 2015-11-18T19:43:16Z mitzelflick: "modular" 2015-11-18T19:43:37Z sid_cypher: mobile augmented reality is a new and exciting field - a lot has to be done on deep layers there because of latency constraints 2015-11-18T19:43:39Z mood: mitzelflick: That's usually the goal, yes. 2015-11-18T19:45:17Z sid_cypher: it's the "aint broke - dont fix" mentality being prevalent. people usually don't want to pile more work on themselves 2015-11-18T19:45:35Z mitzelflick: do you guys all know how to type? 2015-11-18T19:45:48Z sid_cypher: hindley-milner :) 2015-11-18T19:45:56Z mitzelflick: I must learn to type better, and I know this yet haven't done it. 2015-11-18T19:45:57Z pjb: mitzelflick: yes. 2015-11-18T19:45:58Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:46:27Z pjb: mitzelflick: http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/why-you-need-to-learn-touch-typing/ 2015-11-18T19:46:35Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-18T19:46:37Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:47:13Z sid_cypher: pun failed. So we are talking about touch-typing, not inferring static types from constraints :) 2015-11-18T19:47:44Z sid_cypher: keybr.com is awesome 2015-11-18T19:47:51Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T19:47:55Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T19:48:18Z newdan: Seems kind of off-topic...? 2015-11-18T19:48:47Z pjb: mitzelflick: to avoid piled upon application building by agregation, just write your code on the bare hardware. In CL, you can use Movitz. 2015-11-18T19:49:27Z pjb: newdan: not entirely. Keyboards and keyboard layout are within the lisp scope. Cf. eg. the spacecadet keyboard. 2015-11-18T19:50:38Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:50:45Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:50:54Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T19:50:58Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T19:52:07Z sid_cypher: there are #lispgames and #lispweb and so on, but no #lispkeyboards, so somebody has to cover it :) 2015-11-18T19:52:23Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T19:52:40Z pjb: adn we'll advise you eg. on now to remap () to []. 2015-11-18T19:53:34Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T19:54:32Z jasom: sid_cypher: I have libfixposix installed manually 2015-11-18T19:55:49Z jasom: mitzelflick: I think there was an EDW on throwing away the prototype 2015-11-18T19:56:32Z jasom: s/EDW/EWD/ 2015-11-18T19:57:56Z sid_cypher: jasom: i'll have to do it on a webhost again, in order to use inotify. Redefining on file change is rather nice. 2015-11-18T19:59:15Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T19:59:48Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:00:00Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-18T20:03:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:05:57Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:06:40Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:07:41Z mitzelflick: you got to movitz movitz 2015-11-18T20:07:57Z mitzelflick: I tried keynr.com 2015-11-18T20:08:01Z mitzelflick: for a few nights 2015-11-18T20:08:09Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:08:13Z mitzelflick: I actually felt the magic of not looking and finding the keys 2015-11-18T20:08:27Z mitzelflick: keybr.com that is 2015-11-18T20:08:42Z mitzelflick: What is a EWD djikstra? 2015-11-18T20:08:57Z mitzelflick: That crazy guy from Europe? 2015-11-18T20:09:30Z mitzelflick: I love his quote about object oriented programming being an especially bad idea that could only have originated in California. 2015-11-18T20:11:16Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:11:41Z jinxter joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:11:51Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:12:21Z Xach: if you'd like to talk about common lisp, feel free. otherwise, less jibber-jabber, please. 2015-11-18T20:16:14Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:17:47Z et8: Xach: is it not enough for Lispers to be talking to other Lispers; must you annoy people unnecessarily? 2015-11-18T20:18:14Z Xach: et8: This channel is not for talking to other lispers about anything but Common Lisp. If you want to just chat, use #lispcafe. 2015-11-18T20:18:17Z jasom: et8: there are other forums for lispers to talk to other lispers; this is for talking specifically about common lisp. 2015-11-18T20:18:38Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:18:56Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-18T20:18:57Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T20:19:17Z et8: most of the issues above relate to Common Lisp in some way 2015-11-18T20:19:39Z et8: they just aren't saying common lisp in every sentence 2015-11-18T20:19:49Z Xach: No need for you to add meta-jibber-jabber. 2015-11-18T20:19:54Z et8: this is #lisp not #sbcl, thus its generally about Lisp 2015-11-18T20:20:12Z et8: Xach: no need for you to be a condescending dick either 2015-11-18T20:20:18Z newdan: et8: They're pretty far removed 2015-11-18T20:20:33Z Shinmera: et8: Please stop. 2015-11-18T20:22:30Z et8: apologies but people like that make me mad 2015-11-18T20:22:36Z mitzelflick: does quicklisp use asdf or is it an alternative? 2015-11-18T20:22:41Z jasom: mitzelflick: it uses asdf 2015-11-18T20:22:47Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:22:47Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:22:55Z Xach: et8: I'm not going to put up with random rambling. It's not acceptable on this channel. 2015-11-18T20:23:02Z mitzelflick: so things not in quicklisp mostly arrive as asdf packages? 2015-11-18T20:23:17Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:23:18Z mitzelflick: xach I agree to restrain myself 2015-11-18T20:23:34Z jasom: mitzelflick: things in quicklisp and things not in quicklisp mostly are asdf systems 2015-11-18T20:23:45Z jasom: mitzelflick: the term "package" is avoided as it has a specific meaning in common lisp 2015-11-18T20:23:54Z Xach: mitzelflick: Most CL software is loadable via ASDF. quicklisp automates fetching stuff, mostly. 2015-11-18T20:24:28Z mitzelflick: Why are lisp things not simply a text file that lisp reads, forming definitions as if someone had types 1000s of lines in? 2015-11-18T20:24:44Z rudolfochrist quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T20:24:45Z mitzelflick: are there some compiled c modules in thre added as well that the reader can use? 2015-11-18T20:25:00Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T20:25:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T20:25:05Z jasom: mitzelflick: for the same reason that every other language doesn't do that 2015-11-18T20:25:09Z Xach: mitzelflick: some lisp things are like that. but i think it is easier to organize your thoughts with some structure. 2015-11-18T20:25:27Z Xach: files and directories help organize things 2015-11-18T20:25:43Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-18T20:26:18Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:26:26Z mitzelflick: These days compiled pieces can be recognized by a running lisp and laoded in? or is it a bunch of things in bunch of directories adn files eahc read in in a certain squence? 2015-11-18T20:26:49Z jasom: mitzelflick: you can load pieces with or without compiling 2015-11-18T20:27:17Z jasom: mitzelflick: asdf compiles before loading, as this can speed up subsequent loads substantially 2015-11-18T20:29:39Z anti-freeze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:31:10Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:33:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T20:34:11Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T20:34:59Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:35:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:35:45Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:35:51Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:36:32Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T20:37:37Z linoge quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T20:38:00Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:38:03Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:40:18Z mitzelflick: When you write in lisp, how do you take advantage of multiple cpu? Isn't the interpreter stuck on 1? 2015-11-18T20:40:47Z mitzelflick: I remember reading that Paul Graham would launch an interpreter per client for viaweb. 2015-11-18T20:41:07Z mitzelflick: It would seem to not keep a central database then... 2015-11-18T20:41:12Z mitzelflick: I dnno. 2015-11-18T20:41:16Z mood: mitzelflick: CL implementations tend to support multithreading 2015-11-18T20:41:29Z mitzelflick: sbcl? cmu? clisp 2015-11-18T20:41:41Z mitzelflick: ok 2015-11-18T20:43:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:44:17Z axe: you guys recommend a modern lisp book? 2015-11-18T20:44:21Z axe: to learn 2015-11-18T20:44:36Z mitzelflick: practical common lisp is one 2015-11-18T20:44:39Z newdan: axe: Practical Common Lisp seems like the obvious one 2015-11-18T20:44:42Z synchromesh: axe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-11-18T20:44:48Z mitzelflick: gentle intro to symbolic computation is another 2015-11-18T20:45:06Z mitzelflick: lamkins successful lisp 2015-11-18T20:45:09Z axe: i can program in other langauges so doesnt need to be total beginner 2015-11-18T20:45:24Z synchromesh: I really enjoyed reading On Lisp http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html 2015-11-18T20:45:44Z mitzelflick: synchromesh: Did you read that as your first lisp book? 2015-11-18T20:46:17Z synchromesh: I think I read ANSI Common Lisp (Graham's second Lisp book) first, then On Lisp. 2015-11-18T20:46:47Z newdan: synchromesh: Do you think On Lisp is a bad first book? 2015-11-18T20:46:49Z synchromesh: If PCL had been out, I probably would've read that first. It's a great read. 2015-11-18T20:47:00Z dwchandler: axe: practical common lisp is great if you already know how to program in other langs 2015-11-18T20:47:12Z axe: alright good stuff ill take a look 2015-11-18T20:47:18Z synchromesh: On Lisp is a great intro to the Lisp Way, by a good writer. 2015-11-18T20:47:24Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T20:47:24Z ogamita quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:47:37Z axe: ill take a look at both 2015-11-18T20:47:43Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:47:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T20:48:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:48:04Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:48:21Z jinxter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:48:39Z synchromesh: newdan: I don't think it's a bad first book, it depends how much you want your mind expanded. :) Versus "here's how you do OOP in CL, here's how you do file I/O etc." which is what PCL is for. 2015-11-18T20:49:25Z sid_cypher: Land of Lisp is not as available, but it has the greatest ad/music video 2015-11-18T20:49:59Z mordocai loves Land of Lisp 2015-11-18T20:50:19Z sid_cypher: but maybe you don't want your mind _that_ expanded :) 2015-11-18T20:52:01Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-11-18T20:52:14Z sid_cypher plays cat piano with his trunks 2015-11-18T20:52:24Z clique joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:52:32Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-18T20:52:38Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:53:04Z whiteline_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T20:53:06Z axe: ok and a good ide to use? emacs i guess 2015-11-18T20:53:13Z mordocai: Emacs master race 2015-11-18T20:53:20Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:53:31Z sid_cypher: with evil, emacs over vim anytime 2015-11-18T20:53:42Z synchromesh: axe: See my previous comment about mind expansion. :) 2015-11-18T20:53:54Z axe: also if i wanted to build an app with a UI, i guess some good ui lib exists? 2015-11-18T20:53:56Z newdan: axe: If you're a Vim guy (like me) spacemacs is a good way to break into Emacs 2015-11-18T20:54:09Z axe: newdan im a visual studio guy :) 2015-11-18T20:54:29Z synchromesh: I've recently started "living" in Emacs (using Org mode, its agenda etc. - not email though) and it's changing my life. 2015-11-18T20:54:54Z sid_cypher: axe: my condolences :) i had to VS2010 for work, it was... suboptimal :) 2015-11-18T20:54:56Z synchromesh: But I can't say more lest I be booted to #emacs. :) 2015-11-18T20:54:59Z mordocai: I'm working on adding email to emacs 2015-11-18T20:55:06Z mood: axe: ui is generally a somewhat tough area, but I hear Qtools is pretty great: https://github.com/shinmera/qtools 2015-11-18T20:55:07Z mordocai: as in, adding it to my workflow 2015-11-18T20:55:10Z mordocai: not writing my own 2015-11-18T20:55:24Z mordocai: axe: Yeah, pretty much use Shinmera's stuff I think for UI 2015-11-18T20:55:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:56:27Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-11-18T20:57:34Z sid_cypher: i've loaded qtdesigner's .ui files in commonqt and it was good. someday maybe there might even be a uic that compiles to lisp forms *dreams* 2015-11-18T20:57:57Z Shinmera: sid_cypher: You're welcome to start working on that. 2015-11-18T20:58:08Z axe: isnt lisp like 100 years old? and it doesnt have its own UI kit? 2015-11-18T20:58:20Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: after I'm done with the web stuff :) 2015-11-18T20:58:32Z Shinmera: axe: It does, but there's always a question of manpower. 2015-11-18T20:58:50Z Shinmera: Qt is gigantic. It takes a lot to rival its extent. 2015-11-18T21:00:13Z axe: so does emacs use qt? 2015-11-18T21:00:27Z Shinmera: Emacs uses GTK, if I remember correctly. 2015-11-18T21:00:57Z phf: emacs uses curses, xlib, gtk, cocoa/carbon, win32api, probably other things. 2015-11-18T21:01:01Z mood: Note that Emacs' ui handling is mostly written in C (I believe) 2015-11-18T21:01:46Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:01:54Z sid_cypher: GTK+2, GTK+3, Motif, Athena, and whatever else old stuff 2015-11-18T21:01:59Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T21:02:18Z axe: hmm ok 2015-11-18T21:02:50Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:02:51Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:02:53Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:03:02Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T21:03:09Z sid_cypher: emacs uses curses. it's super effective! 2015-11-18T21:03:29Z mordocai: Generally, since lisp is run as a guest in a C-focused OS, you end up doing C integration for something. GUI/graphics is a common one. 2015-11-18T21:03:31Z newdan: axe: Alternatively you can use ABCL and take advantage of Swing, SWT or JavaFX if you like 2015-11-18T21:03:35Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:03:44Z mordocai: Or do java yeah 2015-11-18T21:03:45Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T21:04:16Z et8: axe: there is CLIM / McClim 2015-11-18T21:04:22Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:04:38Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T21:04:48Z et8: axe: also there is Climacs which is a common lisp CLIM based emacs 2015-11-18T21:05:19Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:05:23Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-18T21:05:41Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:05:59Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-18T21:06:24Z sid_cypher: i'd urge everyone to read/eval/modify "State of the Common Lisp Ecosystem, 2015" 2015-11-18T21:06:44Z yvm: Is there any tool that can help to translate C code definitions (like structures, enums, etc) into CFFI definitions? 2015-11-18T21:06:46Z Shinmera: It's hard to modify when it's not publicly editable. 2015-11-18T21:06:59Z Shinmera: yvm: There's cl-autowrap and c2ffi. 2015-11-18T21:07:07Z Xach: yvm: there are a few things along those lines. the most recent one i've seen is cl-autowrap. 2015-11-18T21:07:20Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:07:22Z yvm: Got it, thanks. 2015-11-18T21:07:37Z Shinmera: There's also.. cffi-groveller, I think that does things like that? 2015-11-18T21:07:59Z Xach: I think that fills a different kind of need. 2015-11-18T21:08:07Z Xach: it's like taking the auto out of autowrapping 2015-11-18T21:08:26Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:08:30Z et8: sid_cypher: is that like completely empty or is my browser rendering nil? 2015-11-18T21:08:44Z phf: (there is equally large number of common lisp gui options. xlib, motif in cmucl, lispworks capi, LTK, lgtk (and cells), shinmera's qt bindings, ccl's cocoa integration, rdnzl which is edi's dotnet integration, various CLIM versions. some of these solutions are sufficiently baked to deliver commercial products) 2015-11-18T21:08:45Z clique left #lisp 2015-11-18T21:09:03Z sid_cypher: et8: there was text there last time i visited, but right now it's broken 2015-11-18T21:09:13Z Shinmera: phf: I did not write any Qt bindings. 2015-11-18T21:09:20Z Xach: lispworks' CAPI has been used to deliver multiple shrink-wrapped commercial GUI projects. 2015-11-18T21:09:28Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:09:31Z Shinmera: The bindings are done by CommonQt. All I did was write a layer on top of that. 2015-11-18T21:09:51Z haom joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:09:55Z mood: et8: sid_cypher: https://github.com/eudoxia0/eudoxia0.github.io/blob/master/_posts/2015-08-25-common-lisp-sotu-2015.md is the source 2015-11-18T21:09:57Z phf: Shinmera: oh oh, i didn't realize, thanks for correcting me 2015-11-18T21:10:17Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:10:49Z sid_cypher: mood: google text cache works as well for less imaginative people like me) 2015-11-18T21:11:15Z haom: hello, is there a way to check whether a character is printable or a control char? 2015-11-18T21:12:29Z Shinmera: graphic-char-p may or may not be what you want. 2015-11-18T21:13:53Z sid_cypher: for ANSI/ASCII check if char-code is in range, maybe? 2015-11-18T21:14:39Z Shinmera: While most implementations will be using UTF-8 or an ASCII-derived character set, it's not guaranteed that strings will use it. 2015-11-18T21:14:49Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-18T21:14:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:14:56Z haom: yes! thanks, thats exactly what i meant. 2015-11-18T21:15:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:15:42Z Shinmera: Err, I should correct myself. It is not guaranteed that an implementation will use something ASCII-derived, so your character's codes may not be conforming to ASCII. 2015-11-18T21:16:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:17:13Z sid_cypher: ooh, any UTF16-as-default implemenations maybe? Windows-style :) 2015-11-18T21:17:32Z Shinmera: CMUCL uses UTF-16 if you have unicode enabled, if I remember correctly 2015-11-18T21:17:45Z phf: (yes) 2015-11-18T21:17:54Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T21:18:35Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:18:36Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: you certainly know your implementations! 2015-11-18T21:19:08Z Shinmera: Eh, it's something I came across when writing Unicode checks for Plump, so I recall it from that. It's just coincidental that I was able to contribute anything to this. 2015-11-18T21:19:15Z Guest7812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:20:56Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:21:39Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T21:22:04Z sid_cypher: the more stuff you do, the more "coincidental" flashes you produce. At some point the rate surpasses the boundaries of mere coincidence. 2015-11-18T21:23:47Z Shinmera: Sure, but I don't really know much about implementation specifics at this point. 2015-11-18T21:23:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:24:38Z linoge quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:26:34Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:27:05Z luis` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:27:45Z mordocai: Does the admin for gitlab.common-lisp.net hang out here? I would like to request an account but their email server is rejecting my email due to me not having a reverse-dns for my IPv6 address and i'm waiting on my VPS provider to fix that. 2015-11-18T21:28:04Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:29:47Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:30:12Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-18T21:30:58Z mordocai: Actually nevermind, figured out how to fix it myself with my VPS so my email should go through shortly. 2015-11-18T21:32:26Z pjb: Contrarily to what Xach says, you can jibber-jabber all you want, only not here, but in #lispcafe! 2015-11-18T21:32:52Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T21:33:08Z pjb: I would say, MORE jibber-jabber, on #lispcafe! 2015-11-18T21:33:09Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T21:33:11Z Xach: Already discussed, idiot. 2015-11-18T21:33:23Z newdan: pjb: That's exactly what Xach said 2015-11-18T21:33:40Z pjb: Xach: You still have the attitude of first saying "less jibber-jabber". 2015-11-18T21:36:00Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:36:31Z pjb: mitzelflick: when Graham used clisp, clisp didn't have threads. Nowdays, most CL support multiple threading. So you just use bordeaux-threads and fork any number of threads you need. 2015-11-18T21:36:45Z mitzelflick: ya? 2015-11-18T21:37:04Z mitzelflick: so whatever I write will run without bs on my nice 6 core amd64? 2015-11-18T21:37:04Z pjb: including clisp. 2015-11-18T21:37:17Z mitzelflick: cool 2015-11-18T21:38:06Z mitzelflick: I always liked clisp, although in a book called let over lambda the author says he likes cmu common lisp best because it can compile code better? 2015-11-18T21:38:30Z pjb: But notice that since CL specifies in general a sequential order of evaluation of subforms, no operator in CL actually is parallelized, or could be parallelized, without a lot of heavy global analysis (to ensure that no side effects are present that would need to be serialized). 2015-11-18T21:38:31Z phf: amusingly cmucl uses green threads 2015-11-18T21:38:37Z tkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T21:38:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:38:51Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:39:10Z luis` is now known as luis 2015-11-18T21:39:19Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T21:40:13Z pjb: sid_cypher: let's wait 2016. 2015-11-18T21:41:11Z heddwch is now known as BallServe 2015-11-18T21:41:20Z BallServe is now known as heddwch 2015-11-18T21:41:37Z sid_cypher: pjb: what do you mean? 2015-11-18T21:41:43Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:41:48Z haom left #lisp 2015-11-18T21:42:28Z pjb: You want to revise a document giving the start of the art in 2015, while we're still in 2015! Can't you wait 2016 to have updates??? 2015-11-18T21:42:37Z pjb: s/start/state/ 2015-11-18T21:43:55Z sid_cypher: pjb: eh, end of the year already. better write things like this when you want to, without delay, and update later. 2015-11-18T21:44:10Z slyrus: I'm sure I ask this question every other year or so but if I wanted to write some regression tests and was starting from scratch, 5am? prove? lisp-unit? lisp-unit2? stefil? rt? what do the k00 lisp kids use these days? 2015-11-18T21:44:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T21:44:52Z pjb: I use my own simple-test package. The question you have to ask yourself, is whether any of those testing framework will support your application? 2015-11-18T21:46:06Z luis: slyrus: stefil is still my favorite (or capitaomorte's fork, Fiasco) :) 2015-11-18T21:46:35Z slyrus: thanks luis and pjb 2015-11-18T21:47:42Z luis: slyrus: I like it because tests are pretty much just functions and you write them and debug them as you would any other program. (e.g., a test failure will trigger the debugger) 2015-11-18T21:48:01Z attila_lendvai: stefil is a very thin layer that works well with normal development. it's so thin that I considered tailoring its asserts to be used directly inside the code, too. 2015-11-18T21:49:13Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:49:30Z slyrus: attila_lendvai: your thoughts on Fiasco? 2015-11-18T21:49:49Z mitzelflick: is testing good? or bad? 2015-11-18T21:50:04Z axe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:50:57Z attila_lendvai: slyrus: didn't look deeply enough, and I'm somewhat unhappy that it got forked on a different name as opposed to getting the commit bit... but there's more life there these days for sure, and a potentially interesting rewrite that uses the CL condition system. 2015-11-18T21:51:45Z slyrus: to be fair, fiasco is a better name :) 2015-11-18T21:51:49Z attila_lendvai: s/rewrite/refactor/ and I'm not sure it's finished or half baked 2015-11-18T21:52:44Z attila_lendvai: maybe, and I have no hard feelings. but there were already too many test frameworks before aliasing one of them... :) 2015-11-18T21:54:00Z slyrus: i hear that! 2015-11-18T21:54:28Z luis: I like Fiasco's DEFINE-TEST-PACKAGE, I think it's a logical continuation of Stefil's "tests are functions": "test suites are packages". 2015-11-18T21:54:35Z mitzelflick: http://spark.apache.org/ is there something like this in lisp? 2015-11-18T21:55:02Z luis: (I think it was my idea :P so I'm biased) 2015-11-18T21:55:09Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-18T21:56:21Z armour quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T21:56:31Z Xach: mitzelflick: no 2015-11-18T21:57:28Z foudil joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:58:36Z sid_cypher: there's this hype about big data processing, but so few people encounter any big data - who even uses those tools? 2015-11-18T21:58:57Z luis quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-11-18T21:58:57Z capitaomorte quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-11-18T21:58:58Z mitzelflick: I guess the dream is to replace oracle. 2015-11-18T21:59:27Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2015-11-18T21:59:28Z mitzelflick: Franz does big data, how do they approach it? 2015-11-18T21:59:49Z Xach: They have a specialized database project 2015-11-18T21:59:57Z luis joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:00:16Z synchromesh: mitzelflick: AllegroCache, I believe: http://franz.com/products/allegrocache/ 2015-11-18T22:00:18Z phf: big triplestore with a prolog query language 2015-11-18T22:00:30Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:00:43Z mitzelflick: oh how interesting, I just heard of something called swi prolog about a year ago 2015-11-18T22:00:51Z luis quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:00:52Z capitaomorte quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:01:20Z synchromesh: mitzelflick: Or possibly AllegroGraph http://franz.com/agraph/allegrograph/ - they have a few, see http://franz.com/agraph/ 2015-11-18T22:01:22Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:01:37Z mitzelflick: wow, are there any open source projects with a lisp powered triplestore using a prolog query lang? 2015-11-18T22:01:43Z Xach: mitzelflick: no. 2015-11-18T22:01:52Z luis joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:01:58Z capitaomorte quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:01:58Z luis quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:02:11Z mtl__: there is a thing to connect lisp to swi prolog and run prolog code from lisp 2015-11-18T22:02:17Z mtl__: at least 2015-11-18T22:03:34Z synchromesh: mitzelflick: I've always liked the look of GBBopen http://gbbopen.org/FAQ.html 2015-11-18T22:03:55Z synchromesh: It's not a triple store, it's a blackboard system. So there's that. :) 2015-11-18T22:04:23Z luis` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:04:45Z luis` is now known as luis 2015-11-18T22:06:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:07:39Z shookees quit (Quit: TATA AND FAREWELL) 2015-11-18T22:08:03Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:08:09Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:09:16Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:09:17Z jasom: mitzelflick: they keep their DB data off the lisp heap; ITA did the same thing. 2015-11-18T22:12:24Z badkins quit 2015-11-18T22:15:17Z Guest30769 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:16:15Z foudil quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T22:18:25Z mitzelflick quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-18T22:20:34Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:21:23Z newdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T22:23:10Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:23:20Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T22:27:50Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:30:02Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:30:06Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:30:06Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:30:17Z DeadTrickster_: can I use rwlocks on #sbcl? 2015-11-18T22:30:39Z DeadTrickster_: googled it but grep shows nothing in source code 2015-11-18T22:31:45Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:31:56Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:31:57Z DeadTrickster_: found only proposed? patches from 2003 2015-11-18T22:34:26Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-18T22:34:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:36:24Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:37:07Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T22:37:41Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:37:43Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:39:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-18T22:40:50Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-18T22:45:26Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T22:47:34Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:48:43Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T22:51:42Z GUEST_4567345 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:51:54Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-18T22:52:36Z Draz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:52:55Z GUEST_4567345 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:53:06Z adamnums joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:54:04Z adamnums quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-18T22:56:14Z adam789654123 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-18T22:57:00Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T22:58:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T22:59:51Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-18T23:00:05Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:02:21Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:02:39Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T23:04:10Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-18T23:04:59Z Guest30769 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:06:02Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:06:43Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-18T23:09:32Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:09:54Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-18T23:12:25Z heddwch is now known as heddmorally_wch 2015-11-18T23:14:34Z heddmorally_wch is now known as wch 2015-11-18T23:16:13Z anti-freeze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-18T23:19:42Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-18T23:21:01Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-18T23:22:11Z Raimondi quit (Quit: The road to wisdom?—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein) 2015-11-18T23:22:21Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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BETA) 2015-11-19T00:48:43Z Xach looks and sees guess confirmed 2015-11-19T00:48:51Z Xach: ryy00: that is the syntax for printing the structure you created 2015-11-19T00:49:04Z Xach: it is a cons with the list (ALPHA) in the CAR and the symbol BETA in the CDR. 2015-11-19T00:49:23Z Xach: Conses with non-list CDRs are printed with a dot 2015-11-19T00:51:22Z Xach: ryy00: what were you hoping to see instead? 2015-11-19T00:55:27Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-19T00:56:16Z mtl__: ryy00: if it helps, all lists are actually of the form (foo . (bar . (baz . ()))) 2015-11-19T00:56:35Z mtl__: the above expression is identical to (foo bar baz) 2015-11-19T00:57:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T00:57:09Z ryy00: Xach: Sorry for the late reply, cooking. I was hoping to see ((alpha) alpha) 2015-11-19T00:57:16Z ryy00: But I see now 2015-11-19T00:57:18Z ryy00: Thanks mtl__ 2015-11-19T01:04:46Z ryy00: ((alpha) beta) i meant 2015-11-19T01:05:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-19T01:05:42Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T01:06:12Z mtl__: the typical way to do that would be (list (list x) y) 2015-11-19T01:06:20Z ryy00: Yeah, see that now 2015-11-19T01:06:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-11-19T01:12:35Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T01:24:26Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-19T01:26:03Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T01:29:18Z TDog joined #lisp 2015-11-19T01:30:15Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Every single technology that I know of is "bad", in the sense that it could be made a hellofalot better. 2015-11-19T02:23:23Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:23:24Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:23:36Z loke: On a few occasions I have looked at the gbbopen web page trying to understand what it _is_. I still have no idea what gbbopen is. 2015-11-19T02:23:41Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:42Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:42Z flip211 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:42Z abaugher quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:42Z Vicfred quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:42Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:43Z Moyst quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:43Z failproofshark quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:43Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:43Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:43Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:44Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:44Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:44Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:44Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:44Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:45Z sword```` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:45Z lvh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:45Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:46Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:46Z moop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:46Z SHODAN quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:46Z wooden__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:46Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:47Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:47Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:47Z j_king quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:47Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:23:48Z flip211_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:02Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:05Z misv joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:13Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:16Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:17Z bege joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:17Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:20Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:23Z pok joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:32Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:34Z larsen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:43Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:48Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:50Z lvh joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:53Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:59Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:24:59Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-11-19T02:25:02Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:10Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:19Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:24Z moop joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:25Z j_king joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:37Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:25:42Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:26:09Z Moyst joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:27:37Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:28:10Z phf: loke: http://gbbopen.org/papers/ai-expert.pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_system gives necessary background 2015-11-19T02:28:24Z loke: phf: Thanks! 2015-11-19T02:30:28Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:33:08Z sid_cypher: so we may not have a strong AI yet, but we can make a bunch of weak AIs work together and hope its enough for certain cases) 2015-11-19T02:35:22Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:36:38Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:38:08Z guicho: SBCL fails to write to /sys/fs/cgroup/*** miserably. I can open the files but it complains the stream is not a character stream 2015-11-19T02:38:17Z guicho: I gave a proper permission 2015-11-19T02:40:35Z sid_cypher: so I was coding a url-path string comparison that says "/page" is same as "/page/" and noticed that string-and-slash sounds more like something you do. mad slaughter mwahaha. 2015-11-19T02:44:58Z sgtbigman joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:45:09Z sid_cypher: guicho: try octets? 2015-11-19T02:47:10Z guicho: don't know how, is it like (with-open-file (s "/sys/..../cpu/cpu.cfs_period_us" :external-format :octet) (princ 10000 s)) ? 2015-11-19T02:47:55Z seggy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:47:55Z seggy quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T02:48:14Z guicho: I've been enjoying common lisp most of the time but one thing I never learned is to handle binary files 2015-11-19T02:49:53Z sid_cypher: guicho: did you skip something like :direction :output :if-exists :supercede ? 2015-11-19T02:52:14Z sid_cypher: sb-sys:fd-stream is the result of (with-open-file (s #p"/sys/fs/cgroup/cpu/cpu.shares" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) (type-of s)) 2015-11-19T02:54:15Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T02:54:53Z guicho: oh yes, I was distracted by the message. I forgot :direction :output. 2015-11-19T02:55:56Z guicho: I avoided the problem by uiop:run-program "echo 10000 > ...", but switched back to with-open-file 2015-11-19T02:55:59Z pspace quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-19T02:56:26Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:56:32Z guicho: # is not a character output stream. <<< so the stress is not on "character stream", but "output stream". 2015-11-19T02:57:04Z sid_cypher: yeah. that error message is on stackoverflow, too. 2015-11-19T02:58:54Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-19T02:58:58Z guicho: thanks, issue resolved. and I lost another opportunity to study how to handle binary stream on common lisp. :) 2015-11-19T02:59:26Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:00:44Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-11-19T03:01:01Z harish__ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:01:16Z blubjr` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T03:01:44Z sid_cypher: guicho: http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#example 2015-11-19T03:02:00Z blubjr` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:06:35Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-11-19T03:06:36Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:07:04Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:07:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:16:57Z kmder joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:17:18Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:19:28Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T03:26:14Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:31:35Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:31:45Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T03:32:39Z harish__ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:33:04Z JX7P joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:37:02Z harish__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:39:45Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:39:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-19T03:40:06Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:40:17Z harish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T03:46:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:51:04Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:54:40Z beach: For the buffer representation of Second Climacs, I am using a splay tree of lines. I could not find a splay tree implementation that can represent sequences. It seems cl-contains has a splay tree, but it is a search tree. So I was thinking I would extract the splay tree implementation to a separate library and add more trees to it. 2015-11-19T03:54:46Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:54:46Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T03:54:53Z beach: I have implementations of AVL trees and 2-3 trees lying around that I plan to put into the new library. The main point of the library is that it will use a stratified design so that client code can choose the level of abstraction it needs. 2015-11-19T03:54:57Z beach: Here it is: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump 2015-11-19T03:55:01Z beach: If anyone wants to contribute, let me know. Stratified design is harder than ordinary design, so we need to discuss solutions before any contributor presents me with code. 2015-11-19T03:55:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:55:44Z beach: Currently, the repository only contains a definition of a trivial binary tree node, but I'll add things in the coming days. 2015-11-19T03:57:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-19T03:57:47Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T03:58:13Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T03:58:56Z beach: It's not cool stuff. Just useful. It has nothing to do with web development, and it doesn't even use FFI. 2015-11-19T04:00:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-19T04:11:08Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T04:11:23Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T04:17:51Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-19T09:25:47Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T09:25:55Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:26:06Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:26:06Z Ardeshir left #lisp 2015-11-19T09:27:05Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:27:08Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-11-19T09:32:04Z jdz: sad times indeed when you have to add a disclaimer like that... 2015-11-19T09:35:05Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:36:39Z anti-freeze quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T09:37:29Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:38:07Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T09:39:13Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:42:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-19T09:46:49Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:47:59Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:50:12Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-19T09:51:00Z loke: jdz: What disclaimer? 2015-11-19T09:52:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T09:52:49Z jdz: umm, what beach said 2015-11-19T09:53:02Z jdz: It's not cool stuff. Just useful. It has nothing to do with web 2015-11-19T09:53:02Z jdz: development, and it doesn't even use FFI. 2015-11-19T09:53:43Z jdz: i have no idea how long ago it was, though, just that it was the last thing that has been said in this channel 2015-11-19T09:54:00Z jdz: ZNC FTW 2015-11-19T09:54:37Z Cymew: I just checked the logs and it's almost impossible to find that message in there with all the timeout and join/leave messages 2015-11-19T09:54:56Z Cymew: do we really need to log those? 2015-11-19T09:54:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T09:56:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-19T09:56:25Z jdz: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp?id=9376049×tamp=1447905536#t1447905536 2015-11-19T09:57:28Z djh: you can set your IRC client to not show you join/part messages, usually 2015-11-19T09:57:29Z jdz: my IRC client (Circe) does not display irrelevant joins/leaves 2015-11-19T09:57:42Z White_Flame: Cymew: NSA needs its user tracking, yo 2015-11-19T09:58:01Z White_Flame: jdz: how does it distinguish irrelevant from relevant? 2015-11-19T09:58:55Z jdz: usually if a user says something immediately after joining, or leaves soon after saying something 2015-11-19T09:59:09Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:00:33Z jdz: this probably relevant: https://github.com/jorgenschaefer/circe/blob/master/circe.el#L244-L258 2015-11-19T10:01:43Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:06:44Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:07:58Z sword```` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:14:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:15:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:15:53Z Cymew: Yeah, the client can hide them, and using IRC without that is bloody nigh impossible. But, the log is not affected by my client settings. 2015-11-19T10:16:36Z Cymew: But, the NSA might need it. 2015-11-19T10:17:06Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:18:00Z m0li quit (Quit: (Lisper for ever \o/!!!)) 2015-11-19T10:18:55Z jdz: Cymew: didn't you know you can safely communicate on IRC? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ 2015-11-19T10:19:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:22:47Z loke: Haha 2015-11-19T10:22:51Z loke: I speak 31337 2015-11-19T10:23:02Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:23:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:23:59Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:24:06Z loke: ! 5p34|< 31337 50 0n|y /\/\y g4N6 k4N r34D! 2015-11-19T10:24:13Z jdz: we don't speek leet here so that NSA don't look! 2015-11-19T10:26:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T10:26:27Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:33:28Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:41:03Z rudi_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:48:39Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:48:46Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:48:59Z sid_cypher: ist it just 1337? 2015-11-19T10:54:08Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T10:55:38Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:56:29Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-19T10:57:12Z loke: sid_cypher: That depends 2015-11-19T10:57:24Z loke: I'm from the old generation, and it was always 31337. 2015-11-19T10:57:47Z loke: The bubble-gum brigade that came later shortened it to 1337 2015-11-19T10:58:21Z sid_cypher: loke: oh cool. i'd call that natural optimization, tho 2015-11-19T10:58:44Z loke: sid_cypher: It happened pretty early. I'd guess around 1992? 2015-11-19T10:58:53Z loke: Possibly earlier. 2015-11-19T10:59:38Z sssi`` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:00:06Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:00:19Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T11:00:56Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:01:03Z sid_cypher: i got my first personal computer somewhere in 1996, i think. 2015-11-19T11:01:10Z Downtime joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:01:22Z sssi` quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-19T11:01:22Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-19T11:01:22Z fe[nl]ix quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-19T11:01:22Z SHODAN quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-19T11:01:26Z lvh quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-19T11:01:26Z Uptime quit (Quit: :}) 2015-11-19T11:01:49Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:01:52Z sid_cypher: had to really learn about ms-dos memories and resident programs to free basic mem for games 2015-11-19T11:02:11Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T11:03:00Z lvh joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:03:04Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:03:04Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:03:50Z loke: I was never a PC user 2015-11-19T11:03:58Z sid_cypher: it was a Pentium 1, 150 MHz right off the bat, whopping 8 megs of RAM. 2015-11-19T11:04:05Z sid_cypher: loke: what did you use? 2015-11-19T11:04:06Z loke: I started with C64, then the ST 2015-11-19T11:04:41Z loke: then a Falcon, followed by Sparcstation 4, then SPARCstation 10, then a PC with Linux 2015-11-19T11:04:48Z flip211_ is now known as flip214 2015-11-19T11:04:55Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2015-11-19T11:04:55Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:04:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:05:25Z sid_cypher: loke: lucky, i was just a normal Soviet kid with no access to cool hardware 2015-11-19T11:05:26Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:05:26Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:06:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:06:06Z loke: After the 90's we law a lot of Russians on the 8-nit Atari scene. Seems like the XL was available there? 2015-11-19T11:06:10Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:06:17Z p_l: loke: XE 2015-11-19T11:06:25Z p_l: 65XE was pretty big in Warsaw Pact 2015-11-19T11:06:53Z loke: p_l: ah, yes. I was never an 8-bit atari user (being on the C64) so I don't keep track of those :-) 2015-11-19T11:06:54Z sid_cypher: i dunno, was too young to socially network with local hackers and stuff. 2015-11-19T11:07:06Z p_l learned assembly programming and many other things from 65XE books of my father 2015-11-19T11:07:14Z loke: Seems like the XE was a more fun machine than the C64 2015-11-19T11:07:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:07:22Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:08:28Z loke: Aha... Wikipedia sheds more light on this: 2015-11-19T11:08:30Z loke: "Tramiel, originally from Poland, retained strong links with eastern Europe. When these countries began to remove themselves from the Warsaw Pact, capped by the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, he was able to use these relationships to open new business opportunities for the company." 2015-11-19T11:08:35Z p_l: loke: it was open hardware and its Atari OS was more advanced than BIOS 2015-11-19T11:08:52Z loke: I think the XE scene is still alive and kicking in Russia. 2015-11-19T11:09:19Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-19T11:09:21Z p_l: loke: it didn't help that 65XE was prettu much "the Atari" before ST came, and together with C64 and ZX Spectrum they were the mainstays of home computers for a long time 2015-11-19T11:10:25Z varjag: xe scene wasn't nearly as big as zx 2015-11-19T11:10:32Z varjag: in the former ussr 2015-11-19T11:10:33Z p_l: at least in poland, there was a breadth of literature about every single detail of Atari 65XE/130XE, including source code dumps 2015-11-19T11:10:38Z loke: Lots of polish stuff here: http://www.atarimania.com/pgemainsoft.awp?type=D&system=8 2015-11-19T11:10:48Z varjag: the spectrum was much easier to clone 2015-11-19T11:11:01Z loke: varjag: The specrum was a pretty shitty machine though :-) 2015-11-19T11:11:07Z p_l: varjag: possible - the ataris and C64s in poland weren't clones 2015-11-19T11:11:51Z varjag: loke: yeah but it's not that anyting built on 6502 ever had an edge 2015-11-19T11:12:01Z varjag: ;) 2015-11-19T11:12:40Z loke: varjag: Well, the C64 was definitely more capabe. Mainly thnks to its better sound chip and the hardware sprites. Those really made a difference. The "high colour" mode was useful to avoid colour bleed in games too. 2015-11-19T11:13:04Z loke: But its bundeled Basic was utter shite 2015-11-19T11:13:15Z varjag: loke: well i used both, can't say xe was mind-blowing in comparison 2015-11-19T11:13:16Z loke: You had to do assembly to do anythng useful with it. 2015-11-19T11:13:24Z varjag: but an improvement over 2600 for sure :) 2015-11-19T11:13:33Z loke: What wasn't? :-) 2015-11-19T11:14:09Z loke: OK, time to leave th eoffice. Late laready 2015-11-19T11:14:13Z loke: already 2015-11-19T11:19:22Z varjag: p_l: yeah, with spectrum one needed just the z80 of original components 2015-11-19T11:19:30Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:19:39Z varjag: the ULA was decoded and reproduced in loose logic 2015-11-19T11:19:55Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:20:30Z p_l: 65XE had a bunch of custom chips instead of ULAs 2015-11-19T11:27:34Z PHP_Virtuoso joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:28:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:29:16Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:34:30Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:35:02Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:35:28Z Cymew: 65XE I must have missed totally, being in the Commodore camp at the time 2015-11-19T11:35:49Z Cymew: I had to look it up on wikipedia to know what the heck you were talking about. 2015-11-19T11:36:21Z mason``` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:37:54Z Shinmera: Cymew: the TyNET logs don't show the join/quit/part things by default. http://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp 2015-11-19T11:40:07Z mason`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T11:40:20Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:40:34Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-19T11:44:05Z Downtime is now known as Uptime 2015-11-19T11:48:06Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:49:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:52:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:54:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T11:57:23Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:58:31Z mason```` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T11:59:51Z mason``` quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-19T12:01:23Z wobh quit (Quit: goodnight) 2015-11-19T12:02:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T12:05:19Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:09:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:10:31Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:11:21Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:13:29Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:20:38Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:20:42Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:25:27Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:25:52Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:27:37Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-19T12:28:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:29:17Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T12:33:48Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T12:33:55Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:38:57Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:43:47Z didi joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:44:07Z didi: Is https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2443a4a2 the way to make a flexi-stream from a string? 2015-11-19T12:44:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:44:53Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:47:07Z Xach: didi: you're trying to get an (unsigned-byte 8) stream from the encoding of the string? 2015-11-19T12:48:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:49:14Z sid_cypher: apparently with-input-from-sequence returns a flexi input stream already, why remake it? 2015-11-19T12:49:41Z didi: Xach: I am trying to replicate what I get from `with-input-from-string' with flexi-streams. 2015-11-19T12:49:58Z sgtbigman joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:50:05Z didi: sid_cypher: `with-input-from-sequence' doesn't accept a string apparently. 2015-11-19T12:50:21Z Xach: didi: i mean, what's your overall goal, rather than the technique you hope to achieve it? 2015-11-19T12:50:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:52:19Z didi: Xach: Oh, sure. I have a generic function PARSE and I want to define multiple PARSE methods {string stream pathname} that will call a common INTERNAL-PARSE function that expects a flexi-stream. 2015-11-19T12:52:52Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:54:33Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-19T12:55:18Z sid_cypher: didi: if you macroexpand with-input-from-string, you'll get a snippet with make-string-input-stream, replace that 2015-11-19T12:55:27Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:55:43Z didi: sid_cypher: Interesting. Thanks. 2015-11-19T12:55:43Z sid_cypher: didi: with smth like (flexi-streams:make-flexi-stream (flexi-streams:make-in-memory-input-stream (flexi-streams:string-to-octets "blah"))) 2015-11-19T12:58:11Z didi: I am using a flexi-stream because the encoding might be embedded inside the data. 2015-11-19T12:58:26Z sgtbigman quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T12:58:53Z didi: I reasoned that I will be able to read from the string using bytes and change its encoding as soon as I am able to determine it. 2015-11-19T12:58:59Z didi: s/string/stream 2015-11-19T13:00:34Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:00:49Z sid_cypher: oh, like an http header with content-type: text/plain; encoding=windows-1251; 2015-11-19T13:01:04Z didi: Indeed. 2015-11-19T13:01:34Z jdz: i'm pretty sure flexi-streams allows to change the external format of a stream on the fly 2015-11-19T13:02:00Z jdz: so no need to bother with bytes 2015-11-19T13:02:12Z didi: jdz: Ah, good point. 2015-11-19T13:02:28Z didi: Silly me. 2015-11-19T13:03:13Z sid_cypher: i'd read in ANSI for a while, parse that part and setf streams' encoding to the result. 2015-11-19T13:03:47Z jdz: ANSI != ASCII 2015-11-19T13:04:14Z didi: sid_cypher: *nod* 2015-11-19T13:04:18Z sid_cypher: jdz: yeah, always mixing the up :) 2015-11-19T13:04:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:06:10Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T13:10:08Z sid_cypher: oh, so ANSI should have meant ANSI X3.4, that is US-ASCII, but became a misnomer for a bunch of 128-char encodings. 2015-11-19T13:11:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T13:15:05Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-19T13:15:32Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T13:18:37Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:22:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:23:19Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-19T13:23:39Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:29:41Z Xach: didi: just curious...how did you get the string in the first place? 2015-11-19T13:31:13Z didi: Xach: I didn't. Supposedly an user might want to parse a string instead of parsing a file. It is also nice for testing. 2015-11-19T13:31:54Z Xach: didi: Oh. How might the user input a string that needs a different encoding on the fly? 2015-11-19T13:32:47Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:33:17Z didi: Xach: Ah, I think I understand what you are getting at. It looks silly. But I am doing this so I have a common INTERNAL-PARSE. Reading from a file or a stream is the real problem. 2015-11-19T13:33:38Z Xach: ah, so you want a binary stream as input for the common case 2015-11-19T13:33:49Z didi nods 2015-11-19T13:33:53Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:34:02Z Xach: but the semantics are defined on characters? 2015-11-19T13:34:10Z Xach: syntax, rather... 2015-11-19T13:34:38Z didi: It is. I think the baseline is ASCII until I find the defining charset. 2015-11-19T13:36:39Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:36:43Z pyon quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T13:37:29Z didi: One of the things I like about this channel is that it makes me think about things I didn't even consider. 2015-11-19T13:37:32Z didi: :-) 2015-11-19T13:44:52Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:48:15Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T13:49:00Z Xach: and sometimes it's just idle "well, *i* wouldn't do it *that* way" malarkey... 2015-11-19T13:51:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:51:50Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:53:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T13:55:54Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-19T13:56:15Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:57:26Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:57:52Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T13:58:44Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-19T13:59:12Z eudoxia_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T14:00:37Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:00:38Z didi: That's fine too. I've changed my mind many times based on this channel. 2015-11-19T14:01:13Z didi: Even if at first I didn't think of changing it. 2015-11-19T14:03:51Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T14:04:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:05:11Z badkins quit 2015-11-19T14:05:11Z allezbluez joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:05:31Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:09:17Z PHP_Virtuoso quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-19T14:09:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:16:40Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:22:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:24:48Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:25:10Z gilez is now known as Guest4228 2015-11-19T14:29:23Z _cosmona` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T14:33:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:35:29Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:36:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T14:38:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:38:19Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:39:06Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:39:45Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:40:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:42:56Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T14:46:08Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:46:23Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:46:27Z jaykru quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:47:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:47:12Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:47:35Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:47:53Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:48:37Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T14:49:27Z et8: Is there an implementation detail about having an MOP which prevents its adoption in languages like say Julia? Or is it the complexity which prevents its adoption? 2015-11-19T14:49:51Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:52:18Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:53:59Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T14:54:35Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:54:51Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:56:42Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T14:56:45Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-19T14:57:35Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-19T15:00:01Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:00:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:00:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-19T15:00:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:00:55Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T15:01:13Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:01:31Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:02:15Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:02:37Z rudi_ quit (Quit: rudi_) 2015-11-19T15:03:04Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:04:40Z Creator|away joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:05:37Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:06:16Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:06:20Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:06:34Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:07:50Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:08:48Z Creator|away quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T15:09:00Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:10:57Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:14:30Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:15:43Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T15:16:33Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:17:57Z didi: Maybe I don't use flexi-streams at all, read everything as octets and do the conversion to a string using babel. Hum. 2015-11-19T15:18:40Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:18:44Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T15:20:46Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:22:11Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:23:41Z fu7mu4 quit 2015-11-19T15:24:46Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:26:22Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:26:50Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:30:46Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:32:12Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:32:38Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:34:04Z allezbluez quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:35:26Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:36:33Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-19T15:38:27Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:40:48Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T15:40:49Z dfcat quit (Quit: ceeya) 2015-11-19T15:41:05Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:42:06Z loz quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T15:47:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:48:50Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:49:31Z Xach: et8: I don't know about julia, but other languages have metaobject systems as well. 2015-11-19T15:49:39Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:50:10Z et8: Xach: such as? 2015-11-19T15:52:00Z Xach: like python, or ruby, or smalltalk 2015-11-19T15:53:11Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-19T15:53:31Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:53:35Z Xach: most database systems are similar. the data about the system is stored in tables, like other data. 2015-11-19T15:54:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:54:56Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-19T15:55:50Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-19T15:56:00Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:57:01Z emaczen: If I modify the exported symbols in a package I get a "COMPILER-FILE-ERROR" with the following warning: PACKAGE-NAME also exports the following symbols: ... 2015-11-19T15:57:44Z emaczen: I read that this behavior is "undefined" and should signal an error -- Is there a concensus on this topic? I keep restarting lisp. 2015-11-19T15:58:10Z et8: Xach: but how do they have meta object protocols I don't understand, the OO in those systems don't seem modifiable to me 2015-11-19T15:58:26Z et8: at least not to the extent that Lisp provides 2015-11-19T15:58:52Z Xach: I mean in the sense that information about a class is managed by a class 2015-11-19T15:58:56Z Xach: Or can be managed that way 2015-11-19T15:59:45Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T15:59:47Z Xach: emaczen: the implementation can warn (or do whatever) about that. you can modify the package at runtime instead of restarting, by using unexport for example, to stop the variance. 2015-11-19T16:00:18Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:02:59Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:03:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:04:25Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:05:18Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:06:30Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:06:36Z scymtym: emaczen: assuming you are talking about SBCL, you can use this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159926. it will drop into the debugger instead of signaling a full warning and thus failing to load your code where you can use restarts to rectify the package variance situation (.e.g DROP-THEM restart to drop exported symbols that no longer appear in the CL:DEFPACKAGE form). the exceptions for swank prevent that attempting to load SLIME drops 2015-11-19T16:06:36Z scymtym: into the debugger 2015-11-19T16:06:38Z scymtym: oh well 2015-11-19T16:09:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:09:51Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:10:41Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-19T16:10:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:13:44Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:13:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:15:59Z mathrick_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T16:16:29Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:17:13Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:18:41Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:22:47Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-19T16:24:42Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:26:18Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:26:28Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T16:26:29Z JX7P: McCarthy, J. (1962). LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual. Cambridge (Mass., U.S.A.): The M.I.T. Press. 2015-11-19T16:26:46Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:26:46Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:28:03Z jaykru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-19T16:28:33Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:30:16Z akkad: Are you now, or have you ever been a Lisp Programmer? 2015-11-19T16:31:43Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:33:01Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-19T16:34:35Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:34:50Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-19T16:36:41Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-19T16:36:46Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:37:18Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:38:12Z didi: Idea: Is it feasible to use reader macros to write parsers? I am reading http://lisper.in/reader-macros/ and it all sounds interesting. 2015-11-19T16:38:33Z pjb: et8: if MOP can be implemented for C++, then it can be implemented for all languages. cf. http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#openc++ 2015-11-19T16:39:27Z Bike: seems unnecessarily limiting. 2015-11-19T16:39:38Z sucks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:39:58Z Bike: unless you just have a reader macro that just calls an actual parser, which is probably not what you mean 2015-11-19T16:40:31Z pjb: et8: the point of MOP is not to change the existing, but to implement a new parallel OOS. 2015-11-19T16:40:35Z didi: Bike: Yeah. I meant using the reader macro paraphernalia. Oh well. 2015-11-19T16:40:45Z pjb: et8: only this user defined OOS is mutable. 2015-11-19T16:40:49Z shka: pjb: python or objective-C has mops 2015-11-19T16:40:51Z et8: pjb: yea I imagine it could also be implemented on a Turing machine however I meant more specifically are there performance issues, or other issues whilst implementing it which drove languages like Dylan for example not to take it on 2015-11-19T16:41:09Z pjb: shka: that's what I said: MOP can exist on all languages. 2015-11-19T16:41:11Z shka: and i'm pretty sure that majority of C++ compilers use mop concepts internally 2015-11-19T16:41:15Z et8: pjb: I see 2015-11-19T16:41:21Z shka: right 2015-11-19T16:41:54Z shka: point is: it is often restricted to the compiler internals 2015-11-19T16:42:10Z shka: you don't have interfaces for programmer 2015-11-19T16:42:18Z pjb: et8: perhaps you want run-time MOP; creating classes at run-time etc. In C++ it wouldn't make much sense, but in Smalltalk, Ruby, etc it does. 2015-11-19T16:42:40Z shka: ofc, this is simply not acceptable in the lisp wordl 2015-11-19T16:43:00Z dsp_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:43:09Z pjb: didi: it is perfectly feasible. 2015-11-19T16:44:52Z pjb: didi: what Bike wants to say, is that it is somewhat unpractical to do so in a way where the whole source file is parsed with a different language (since in general that involves defining a reader macro for all the characters (and char-code-limit #| --> 1114112 |# and some implementations use a-lists for the read table)). But you can often introduce the new syntax by a single reader-macro and let it be embeddable in normal lisp sexps. 2015-11-19T16:45:48Z didi: pjb: Hum. I see. 2015-11-19T16:45:50Z pjb: didi: see for example: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/vWfjkdG0lME[51-75] 2015-11-19T16:46:00Z Bike: yeah, more or less. plus parsing something like C do while would be annoying for no reason 2015-11-19T16:46:06Z didi: My goal is to parse a file into sexps. 2015-11-19T16:46:06Z honeymuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:46:50Z truecoldmind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T16:47:32Z White_Flame: didi: any system that parses an AST does that 2015-11-19T16:47:50Z Bike: well, extra annoying 2015-11-19T16:47:54Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T16:47:57Z pjb: Bike: done in Vacietis. 2015-11-19T16:48:07Z pjb: with the bunch of reader macros too. 2015-11-19T16:48:15Z Bike: uh, why 2015-11-19T16:48:33Z pjb: Because Vacietis is a funny little kludge. 2015-11-19T16:48:41Z didi: How pity. I am very interested in this conversation but I gotta run. 2015-11-19T16:48:44Z pjb: A great example. 2015-11-19T16:48:48Z didi: Talk to you later. 2015-11-19T16:49:08Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2015-11-19T16:52:01Z Bike: yeah, installs a general reader macro on all alphabetical characters. great 2015-11-19T16:53:25Z honeymuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:55:10Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T16:56:18Z pjb: Bike: only ascii in fact. 2015-11-19T16:57:18Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T16:57:22Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-19T16:58:08Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-19T17:00:05Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T17:00:11Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:00:37Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-19T17:00:53Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:01:44Z arademaker quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:03:20Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:05:12Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:07:26Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:09:15Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:11:36Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T17:13:22Z sellout joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:13:37Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:14:57Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T17:16:23Z oem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:17:37Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T17:17:52Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:21:15Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:21:33Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:23:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:23:13Z et8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T17:23:41Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:25:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:28:11Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:28:30Z arademaker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:31:51Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:33:30Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:34:36Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:39:57Z kami`` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:40:16Z kami`` is now known as kami 2015-11-19T17:40:49Z tristero quit (Quit: tristero) 2015-11-19T17:41:30Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T17:43:04Z p` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:43:09Z p`: hi guys what is lisp good for 2015-11-19T17:43:41Z dwchandler: it's good for doing stuff 2015-11-19T17:43:59Z p`: what kind of things would I want to do with lisp? 2015-11-19T17:44:14Z dwchandler: It's general purpose, so most anything 2015-11-19T17:44:15Z p`: why should I prefer lisp over a usable language such as javascript? 2015-11-19T17:44:51Z dwchandler: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html 2015-11-19T17:45:28Z jdz: p`: did you just come here to say Lisp is unusable? 2015-11-19T17:45:51Z p`: Yes. 2015-11-19T17:45:59Z p`: no, im wondering 2015-11-19T17:46:03Z p`: whats a real usecase for the language 2015-11-19T17:46:08Z p`: other than "understanding things better" 2015-11-19T17:46:32Z p`: the javascript example is clearly a bait tho (^^^^^: 2015-11-19T17:47:21Z oceanpollen: is it? javascript has a pretty clear answer to "why should I use this?": the browser. few languages have that. Lisp isn't unique here. 2015-11-19T17:47:30Z oGMo: js: foo(). lisp: (foo). it's exactly the same, you just put parens in a different place. 2015-11-19T17:48:58Z oGMo: but in js, you can't make foo(bar == 1, baz()) expand to if(bar == 1) { baz() }, but in lisp you can 2015-11-19T17:49:16Z oceanpollen: so with most other languages you start out with something you want to do and then see how obliging the language + community + libraries etc. are. 2015-11-19T17:49:31Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-19T17:50:14Z oGMo: (also that would look silly, but in JS you can't extend the _parser_ ... but in lisp, you can) 2015-11-19T17:51:25Z akkad: javascript is a common lisp anyways 2015-11-19T17:54:44Z jasom: akkad: not even close; it's not really even a lisp, and it gets its object model from self 2015-11-19T17:57:32Z shka: i can't call anything non homoiconic lisp 2015-11-19T17:59:09Z jasom: I would also agree that homoiconicity is important to lisp; I'd go further and say that s-expressions have established themselves as being important to lisp as well, despite McCarthy's original plan to replace them. 2015-11-19T17:59:18Z newdan: Yeah I don't get the "JS is Scheme" meme. The only thing vaguely Lisp or Scheme-like about it is dynamic typing, GC, first class functions and closures... Which it also has in common with almost every other scripting language 2015-11-19T18:00:36Z dlowe: single namespacing 2015-11-19T18:01:23Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:01:26Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:01:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:01:58Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:02:12Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:02:25Z p` left #lisp 2015-11-19T18:02:35Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:02:55Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T18:05:51Z oGMo: newdan: same with python 2015-11-19T18:06:17Z ToeTag joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:06:18Z White_Flame: once languages got lambdas & list mapping functions, they all were named "Lisp-ish" 2015-11-19T18:06:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:06:46Z oGMo: C++ is lisp-ish now then 2015-11-19T18:06:50Z White_Flame: which isn't reasonable 2015-11-19T18:06:54Z jasom: I hear in python 3 it's now possible to write to closed over variables unlike in python2 2015-11-19T18:06:55Z oGMo: quite 2015-11-19T18:07:02Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:07:09Z oGMo: jasom: right, but .. same with C++11 heh 2015-11-19T18:07:10Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T18:07:10Z sz0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T18:07:40Z oGMo: "has a few features of higher-level languages" does not a lisp make 2015-11-19T18:07:44Z jasom: they had to add syntax for it since an assignment to a variable previously unreferred to in the current function establishes a new lexical binding 2015-11-19T18:07:45Z newdan: jasom: Yeah, they added a 'nonlocal' keyword to indicate a variable comes from an enclosing scope 2015-11-19T18:07:58Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:08:07Z White_Flame: yeah, there's some blog where a C++ coder implemented some Lisp-isms, including running code at compile-time. Took dozens of lines of 80% angle-bracket templating to do a simple Lisp 1-liner 2015-11-19T18:08:52Z ToeTag: Can someone help me to understand this idea of modifying a *running* program that I hear talked about regarding lisp? (My background is in Java/Python) 2015-11-19T18:09:11Z jasom: ToeTag: modifying a running program is how both lisp (and smalltalk) operate normally 2015-11-19T18:09:36Z ToeTag: Okay, what confuses me is that something like SBCL, I believe, is compiled to assembler 2015-11-19T18:09:38Z oGMo: ToeTag: in CL, a common way to write code is to start your lisp, then write/compile functions into it incrementally 2015-11-19T18:09:38Z White_Flame: ToeTag: you can do it to some extend in Java's debugger 2015-11-19T18:09:47Z oGMo: redefine/etc 2015-11-19T18:09:49Z jasom: ToeTag: yup, and the compiler is available at runtime 2015-11-19T18:10:23Z ToeTag: okay so if I define some function, start running the program, then redefine that function - is it as simple as a replace is done in the assembly code that is actually natively running? 2015-11-19T18:10:33Z oGMo: e.g., get an error, debugger pops up with a backtrace and asks you what to do, _you fix the function and continue_ rather than stop, fix, restart 2015-11-19T18:10:34Z jasom: ToeTag: In java you compile offline, then startup the jvm. With lisp, you startup the runtime and *then* compile and load code 2015-11-19T18:10:59Z oGMo: ToeTag: for some value of "simple", but yes 2015-11-19T18:11:10Z jasom: ToeTag: it creates a new definition for the function and if the old definition isn't referred to, it will eventually get GCed 2015-11-19T18:11:22Z ToeTag: interesting 2015-11-19T18:11:30Z White_Flame: ToeTag: By defining a new function definition, new function calls will use the old versions. If old versions are still active on a call stack somewhere, they're not updated (that'd kind of be impossible to resolve) 2015-11-19T18:11:43Z White_Flame: ...new function calls will use the new versions... 2015-11-19T18:11:53Z oGMo: it makes writing and fixing stuff _way_ nicer. in theory one could do it in any language that supports similar, but few have comprehensive environments for doing so 2015-11-19T18:11:56Z jasom: ToeTag: there are some minor gotchas to the alter of efficiency 2015-11-19T18:12:07Z ToeTag: right I can imagine 2015-11-19T18:12:37Z jasom: by default the compiler can assume that functions defined in the same file won't be redefined, so you should either mark the functions to *not* be that way, or (as most people do) just recompile an entire file when you want to change a function 2015-11-19T18:13:06Z ToeTag: right right 2015-11-19T18:13:26Z ToeTag: I just kept hearing about this "change the program however you want as it's running" and it was very confusing 2015-11-19T18:14:09Z oceanpollen: ToeTag, suppose you wrote a program that read from an array, and attached a debugger that let you change the array independently of the program. 2015-11-19T18:14:09Z jasom: ToeTag: to a certain extent you can do this with python, but I'm not sure that the semantics are as well defined (probably "whatever C python does" as usual) 2015-11-19T18:14:26Z White_Flame: It's the same as any other language: change the source code, and new definitions are available. Except here, you don't need to restart the program 2015-11-19T18:14:32Z mbrock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:14:32Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:14:33Z Xach: this took me a while to understand, but (in some systems) when you compile a function to machine code, the lisp compiler produces, in memory, a sequence of 8-bit values that represent that code. an when that function is called, the cpu jumps to that code. recompiling the function produces a new array of code octets, so jumping to it has a new effect. 2015-11-19T18:14:33Z dbrock- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:14:50Z oceanpollen: ToeTag, you can do some neat things with a setup like that. with lisp programs what you're changing is the symbol table I guess. 2015-11-19T18:15:10Z Xach: (in some systems) the standard disassemble function converts that sequence into readable assembly code. 2015-11-19T18:15:55Z Xach: there is bookkeeping involved to keep track of associating a function name with its machine code and other attributes 2015-11-19T18:16:01Z jasom: ToeTag: you obviously can't overwrite the code itself as something might be in the middle of it (or have it on the call stack). So a new version of the function is made, and it is bound to the name of the function. When nobody has the old version of the function on the call stack any more then it can be garbage collected 2015-11-19T18:16:27Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:16:47Z jasom: It's really not any different than doing an assignment in java 2015-11-19T18:16:53Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:17:42Z jasom: If you assign a new value to a global, anybody with a referrence to the old value won't see it change, but anybody accessing the global by name will. 2015-11-19T18:18:23Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:18:35Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:18:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:18:42Z ToeTag: Very cool 2015-11-19T18:18:48Z sucks_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:18:48Z ToeTag: Thanks a lot all - really appreciate it 2015-11-19T18:19:02Z ToeTag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T18:19:29Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:19:34Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:19:57Z sucks_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:21:11Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:21:42Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:22:12Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:22:16Z nopcall joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:22:17Z nopcall quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-19T18:22:36Z nopcall joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:25:10Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:26:54Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:27:20Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:31:23Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:31:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:32:01Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:32:02Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:34:33Z mathrick_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T18:36:04Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:38:08Z quasus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T18:38:29Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:39:38Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-19T18:39:42Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-19T18:41:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:42:30Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:43:24Z rudolfochrist: 2015-11-19T18:43:24Z rudolfochrist: [Wed Nov 18 2015] 2015-11-19T18:43:24Z rudolfochrist: *** Topic for #lisp: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming 2015-11-19T18:43:24Z rudolfochrist: language 2015-11-19T18:43:28Z rudolfochrist: logs:|contact op if muted|SBCL 2015-11-19T18:43:31Z rudolfochrist: 1.3.0, ASDF 3.1.6, CMUCL 21a, ECL 16.0.0, CFFI 0.16.0, cl-launch 4.1.4, 2015-11-19T18:43:34Z rudolfochrist: flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 [21:22] 2015-11-19T18:43:37Z rudolfochrist: *** #lisp: topic set by fe[nl]ix!~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix, 2015-11-19T18:43:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2015-11-19T18:43:40Z rudolfochrist: 2015-11-02 19:31:05 2015-11-19T18:43:44Z rudolfochrist: *** Users on #lisp: rudolfochrist nikki93 moei jinxter Bicyclidine arescorpio 2015-11-19T18:43:44Z rudolfochrist: grouzen pt1 briantrice sjl jaykru mitzelflick karswell ecraven bb010g 2015-11-19T18:43:44Z rudolfochrist [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (come back) 2015-11-19T18:43:47Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2015-11-19T18:45:45Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:46:11Z rudolfochrist: Sorry 2015-11-19T18:46:15Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:48:10Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:49:55Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:50:42Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:51:14Z emaczen: experimenting in the REPL, I can see that an inner defun form evaluating to a function definition is in scope at the toplevel.Macroexpanding with SBCL shows me that defun is implemented via eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ... Can someone tell/explain the vocabulary behind the difference this would be if instead the inner function were "hidden" -- as it would be if you had nested let forms? 2015-11-19T18:51:39Z emaczen: I think the words I am looking for are "hidden" == "lexical" 2015-11-19T18:52:08Z emaczen: Does this mean that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ... ) forms are not "lexically" scoped? 2015-11-19T18:52:45Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:53:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T18:54:26Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:55:39Z shka: emaczen: i think you confused 2015-11-19T18:55:48Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:55:51Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:56:38Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T18:56:50Z shka: emaczen: try to write macro that will use function that you defined with defun in macroexpand 2015-11-19T18:57:08Z shka: then close repl 2015-11-19T18:57:09Z shka: restart 2015-11-19T18:57:13Z shka: try to load that file 2015-11-19T18:57:45Z shka: you will understand what eval-when does 2015-11-19T18:58:00Z emaczen: shka: (defun add1 (x) (defun minus1 (y) (1- y)) (1+ x)) 2015-11-19T18:58:21Z emaczen: shka: That will let you evaluate minus1 at the toplevel 2015-11-19T18:58:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T18:59:04Z shka: what? 2015-11-19T18:59:15Z shka: that makes little sense…\ 2015-11-19T18:59:24Z shka: is that even defined in the standard? 2015-11-19T19:00:01Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:00:23Z newdan: emaczen: AFAIK defuns aren't lexically scoped. There are ways to do lexically scoped functions, like flet and labels 2015-11-19T19:00:23Z emaczen: shka: The contrast I have discovered is that in javascript, the outer function provides a scope around the inner function and you cannot evaluate the inner function from the toplevel -- but in lisp you can. 2015-11-19T19:01:01Z shka: in common lisp 2015-11-19T19:01:02Z emaczen: newdan: Thanks, you have confirmed what I thought to be true. 2015-11-19T19:01:22Z raphaelss quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T19:01:40Z newdan: emaczen: I'm coming from Python so it surprised me too. CL does have lexical scoping but AFAIK (at least in SBCL) inner defuns aren't lexically scoped 2015-11-19T19:01:43Z shka: emaczen: anyway, lexical vs eval-when is different things 2015-11-19T19:02:05Z newdan: Er, they don't... I don't know how to put it into words. Just what you say, you can execute them at toplevel 2015-11-19T19:02:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:02:20Z shka: that's true 2015-11-19T19:02:24Z emaczen: shka: I see that defun is implemented with eval-when in SBCL (macroexpand a defun form) 2015-11-19T19:02:47Z shka: sure it is 2015-11-19T19:03:04Z White_Flame: newdan: they're in the global environment 2015-11-19T19:03:10Z shka: but eval-when just tells you WHEN it is EVALUATED 2015-11-19T19:03:18Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:04:34Z newdan: White_Flame: They get associated with the current package, right? 2015-11-19T19:05:02Z shka: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node65.html 2015-11-19T19:05:11Z shka: actually, it makes sense 2015-11-19T19:05:13Z shka: kinda 2015-11-19T19:05:19Z White_Flame: newdan: The defun function body gets associated with the symbol passed to defun 2015-11-19T19:05:32Z White_Flame: that symbol is generally in a package 2015-11-19T19:05:37Z shka: i can't imagine when i would write such code 2015-11-19T19:06:12Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:07:22Z White_Flame: newdan: the only thing that packages ever hold are symbols. Functions, macros, classes, etc, these are all named by symbols, but these things themselves are not "in" packages 2015-11-19T19:07:59Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T19:08:07Z White_Flame: If you do (defun add (a b) (+ a b)), then (symbol-function 'ADD) will yield an equivalent result to (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) with no association to the package that ADD is defined in 2015-11-19T19:08:22Z White_Flame: the function body stands alone 2015-11-19T19:09:08Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:09:12Z newdan: White_Flame: Oh I see. That makes sense. 2015-11-19T19:10:17Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:12:31Z dwchandler: So, compare to scheme :) 2015-11-19T19:13:32Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T19:14:04Z emaczen: Is there a difference between labels and flet? 2015-11-19T19:14:22Z newdan: dwchandler: Well in Lisp you can still define scoped functions with FLET and LABELS 2015-11-19T19:14:33Z emaczen: I see the difference... 2015-11-19T19:14:43Z dwchandler nods 2015-11-19T19:15:09Z emaczen: labels is to flet as let* is to let ? right? 2015-11-19T19:15:40Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:15:59Z Xach: sort of. 2015-11-19T19:16:09Z Xach: labels definitions can reference both forward and backward 2015-11-19T19:16:13Z White_Flame: emaczen: no, let* is sequential bindng 2015-11-19T19:16:13Z Xach: let is backward only 2015-11-19T19:16:15Z Xach: sorry, let* 2015-11-19T19:17:10Z Wasdaf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:18:16Z jasom: emaczen: you can't make a recursive call (for example) with flet but you can with labels 2015-11-19T19:18:39Z jasom: The scope of the declarations is the body of the flet, and the entire form for labels 2015-11-19T19:18:52Z jasom: s/declarations/bindings 2015-11-19T19:18:58Z emaczen: jasom: ahhh I see. 2015-11-19T19:19:03Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:19:41Z vydd: hello 2015-11-19T19:21:46Z BitPuffin is now known as kcinnay 2015-11-19T19:22:47Z nopcall quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:24:01Z kcinnay is now known as BitPuffin 2015-11-19T19:26:34Z vydd: Does anyone know of a ready-made solution for function (or code segment) throttling? What I want is something like (with-throttle :once ...) inside an infinite loop, that would make the body run once; or (with-throttle :every-second ...) run the code again only when a second has passed. 2015-11-19T19:27:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:28:07Z shka: vydd: on what thread? 2015-11-19T19:28:58Z vydd: shka: On the same thread that would be executing the code if it wasn't wrapped inside it. 2015-11-19T19:29:33Z shka: not sure, but it looks like you will need some event loop for that 2015-11-19T19:30:48Z shka: and a timer 2015-11-19T19:30:58Z shka: vydd: did you consider that? 2015-11-19T19:31:00Z vydd: shka: No, it would be like if you manually created a variable to keep the time (or any kind of state, like "done" flag), then did an if (conditionp) --> run code 2015-11-19T19:31:04Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T19:31:08Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T19:31:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:31:33Z shka: vydd: but you will need to have a timer 2015-11-19T19:32:10Z vydd: shka: If by a timer you mean a variable to hold the time of previous run and some logic to compare that to current time, then ye. 2015-11-19T19:33:29Z phf: you can get pretty far with a combination of sleep and get-universal-time. replace g-u-t with some implementation specific higher precision time call, etc. 2015-11-19T19:34:19Z pjb: vydd: yes, I did that once. 2015-11-19T19:34:47Z vydd: pjb: oh, is it in informatimago repos? 2015-11-19T19:35:30Z shka: vydd: well, if it's truely what you want, why not simply wait inside loop? 2015-11-19T19:35:54Z pjb: vydd: GPL3: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/debug.lisp#L41 2015-11-19T19:36:09Z vydd: shka: I don't want to wait. I want to skip executing that section. 2015-11-19T19:36:23Z shka: oooh 2015-11-19T19:36:27Z shka: now i understand 2015-11-19T19:36:32Z shka: ok, that makes more sense 2015-11-19T19:36:51Z shka: good night all 2015-11-19T19:37:01Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-19T19:37:11Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:37:20Z pjb: vydd: also, notice how being a simple short macro, it would have been easier and faster for you to just write it. 2015-11-19T19:37:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:38:02Z vydd: pjb: Yeah. Thanks for the link, but I think I'm actually going to need to write it myself anyway. 2015-11-19T19:38:16Z pjb: I should think so too. 2015-11-19T19:38:41Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:42:50Z sid_cypher: did my research while you talked. Wouldn't you use internal-time-units-per-second and (get-internal-real-time) for stuff? 2015-11-19T19:43:09Z pjb: yes. 2015-11-19T19:43:13Z pjb: sometimes. 2015-11-19T19:43:16Z sid_cypher: sleep and g-u-t are kinda 1-second-steps)) 2015-11-19T19:43:28Z pjb: no, not sleep. 2015-11-19T19:43:32Z pjb: not necessarily. 2015-11-19T19:43:47Z pjb: If you need to do stuff clock-time. 2015-11-19T19:43:58Z pjb: but often what you need is run-time, not clock-time. 2015-11-19T19:44:35Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:46:11Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T19:47:37Z sid_cypher: okay. great idea with the throttling, though - reducing the occurance frequency of optional computational steps based on some time-dependent metric 2015-11-19T19:47:44Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:47:58Z vydd: Semantically, do you think (with-throttle throttle &body body) would be a right name for it? THROTTLE could be either a closure, or a form used to reference premade ones, like :once, :each-second (:hours 5) ? 2015-11-19T19:48:18Z vydd: Because I guess I'm making it then, and would like to make it accessible for others. 2015-11-19T19:49:11Z sid_cypher: vydd: are you thinking (when throttle-flag ...) or callback-volleyball? 2015-11-19T19:49:53Z vydd: sid_cypher: (when (throttle-p) ...) 2015-11-19T19:50:56Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T19:51:33Z sid_cypher: vydd: will (with-throttle (thread-handler throttle-p) &body body) create a thread where body runs in a loop? 2015-11-19T19:51:57Z pjb: vydd: if throttle-p is a function, then you can't have different throttles in different threads or in different loops. 2015-11-19T19:52:12Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:53:14Z jasom: Is get-internal-real-time typically monotonic? 2015-11-19T19:53:36Z jasom: or is it typically affected by system clock changes? 2015-11-19T19:54:18Z sid_cypher: jasom: i think you'd need an external measuring device to test that, unless your brain is milliseconds-sensitive) 2015-11-19T19:54:19Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:54:37Z jasom: sid_cypher: not really, just set the system clock backwards a minute and see what happens 2015-11-19T19:55:28Z vydd: sorry, was afk for a moment 2015-11-19T19:55:32Z jasom: Would also be interesting to see what happens at DST 2015-11-19T19:55:58Z sid_cypher: jasom: oh that was what you're talking about. dunno, try it out with an infinite print loop and hwclock 2015-11-19T19:56:13Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-19T19:56:16Z didi` joined #lisp 2015-11-19T19:57:23Z vydd: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159948 I meant to use something like that to create throttles. 2015-11-19T19:59:06Z sid_cypher: vydd: not a throttle-once closure-generator? 2015-11-19T19:59:36Z vydd: sid_cypher: I don't know what (thread-handler tp) does, but let's say THROTTLE would not take all possible code. 2015-11-19T19:59:47Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:00:42Z vydd: sid_cypher: it is a closure generator, yes, not sure what you mean 2015-11-19T20:01:04Z sid_cypher: vydd: sorry, i don't understand the "let's say THROTTLE would not take all possible code" part 2015-11-19T20:02:30Z sid_cypher: vydd: oh yeah, you pastebin code is great, you could use (let (done) (lambda () ...)) too 2015-11-19T20:02:44Z didi` is now known as didi 2015-11-19T20:03:18Z vydd: sid_cypher: Well, what I guess I wanted to say was that I don't know what thread-handler was, so if it did something magical with threads, WITH-THROTTLE might have unspecified behavior. 2015-11-19T20:03:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:04:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:04:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:04:59Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:05:01Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T20:05:16Z schaueho quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T20:05:35Z sid_cypher: vydd: let's say when you use (with-throttle ...), it creates a thread and exits immediately. the return value would include a thing to control the new thread 2015-11-19T20:05:57Z sid_cypher: vydd: yeah, you don't need a thread-handler argument, my bad. 2015-11-19T20:07:15Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:08:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:10:23Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:11:24Z vydd: Ok, thank you all. I'll notify you when throttle lib is done :) 2015-11-19T20:13:07Z sid_cypher: vydd: i'm trying my hand on a miniversion, might link to it in 15min 2015-11-19T20:14:23Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:14:47Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-19T20:15:50Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:16:22Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:16:47Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-19T20:17:44Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:18:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:19:31Z vydd: sid_cypher: Cool! Do note that currently I have a very specific usecase for it, and that I might want to do some things differently. But we can always join efforts :) 2015-11-19T20:19:46Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:20:00Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T20:20:33Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:20:58Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:20:58Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:24:26Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:24:27Z clique joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:24:28Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T20:24:42Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:25:03Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:25:09Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-19T20:25:24Z clique left #lisp 2015-11-19T20:28:17Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:28:24Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:28:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:29:14Z sid_cypher: going with throttles as structs of "condition" function and "flag" boolean, subject to renaming. A list of throttles is passed to (with-throttles (list) &body body) 2015-11-19T20:29:27Z jlarocco_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T20:29:30Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:30:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:32:29Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:33:36Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:33:47Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:35:21Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:35:56Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:36:48Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:40:09Z sid_cypher: vydd: came up with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/159949 2015-11-19T20:40:18Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-19T20:41:08Z sid_cypher: lol, forgot body 2015-11-19T20:41:20Z vydd: sid_cypher: hmm. I think you misunderstood me. I don't need threads. 2015-11-19T20:42:31Z sid_cypher: vydd: could work without threads, then. i'll update the code 2015-11-19T20:43:21Z vydd: sid_cypher: I want this: https://gist.github.com/vydd/3da096ddf22c9383717d . 2015-11-19T20:44:25Z vydd: sid_cypher: but I don't really expect you to just implement what I want to have, so, if you do want to help, it'd be better to coordinate our efforts at #clthrottle 2015-11-19T20:44:39Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:44:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:45:17Z sid_cypher: vydd: eh, i'll pm you the second link and be done with it) 2015-11-19T20:45:37Z vydd: sid_cypher: sure 2015-11-19T20:46:28Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:46:33Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-11-19T20:46:47Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-11-19T20:46:47Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:48:09Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2015-11-19T20:49:39Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-19T20:52:54Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T20:53:59Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:55:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T20:56:20Z axe: so when peoepl say theyve created a lisp dialect 2015-11-19T20:56:48Z axe: that just means they created a bunch of their functions? enough to do whatever they designed the DSL for? 2015-11-19T20:56:59Z axe: their own functions* 2015-11-19T20:57:15Z Xach: i think there as many meanings to the phrase as there are personal lisp dialiects 2015-11-19T20:57:28Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T20:57:52Z axe: or does it mean theyve created a new compiler? 2015-11-19T20:58:01Z synchromesh: A DSL is a language-within-a-language, I think a "dialect" is more a slightly different language to all the other dialects out there already. 2015-11-19T20:58:34Z synchromesh: It sounds better than "I've re-invented the wheel" 2015-11-19T20:58:41Z axe: heh 2015-11-19T20:59:03Z axe: also car=first, and cdr=rest? why those names? 2015-11-19T20:59:06Z Bicyclidine: a dialect is just a DSL with a blog and a repository? 2015-11-19T20:59:19Z Bicyclidine: axe: instructions on some old machine 2015-11-19T21:00:01Z axe: ook 2015-11-19T21:00:06Z Bicyclidine: "contents of address register" and "contents of decrement register" 2015-11-19T21:00:17Z mordocai: axe: Yeah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR gives a decent overview 2015-11-19T21:00:25Z mordocai: axe: Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons 2015-11-19T21:01:23Z axe: cool 2015-11-19T21:01:29Z pjb: axe: how do you name an abstract structure with two fields? 2015-11-19T21:01:50Z varjagg: some of the names are 6 letter aconyms 2015-11-19T21:01:57Z varjagg: due to the original size of lookup table 2015-11-19T21:01:59Z pjb: and yes, the 7090 was a lisp machine, with tagged words, and even an assembly eval (XEC). 2015-11-19T21:02:06Z varjagg: rplaca, rplacd, subseq 2015-11-19T21:02:17Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T21:02:26Z pjb: because on 36-bit machines using 6-bit characters, you would pack easily 6 characters per word. 2015-11-19T21:02:46Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:03:57Z varjagg: makes sense 2015-11-19T21:04:09Z varjagg: guess it was somewhere in lisp 1.5 manual 2015-11-19T21:05:38Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:06:26Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-19T21:09:36Z arnsholt: pjb: Oooh, that makes a lot of sense. It's like SMTP being almost entirely four-character commands 2015-11-19T21:11:57Z pjb: yes, 32-bit. 2015-11-19T21:12:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:12:36Z pjb: (and remember that despite looking nice in ASCII, TCP/IP protocols are most often actually binary protocols. 2015-11-19T21:12:37Z pjb: ) 2015-11-19T21:13:22Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:16:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-19T21:16:29Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:16:50Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:18:00Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:18:25Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:19:12Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:19:52Z jasom: pjb: Reliable 8-bit e-mail didn't happen until the 21st century 2015-11-19T21:21:14Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-19T21:24:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:26:01Z dim: quoted-printable, mmpff. 2015-11-19T21:29:50Z newdan: Is it possible to disable the output buffer in SBCL? 2015-11-19T21:30:24Z hiroakip quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-19T21:30:33Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:30:59Z dim: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output* *standard-output) ...)? 2015-11-19T21:31:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T21:31:58Z jasom: newdan: what do you mean? 2015-11-19T21:31:58Z dim: sorry, not that tip, brain doesn't want to play nice tonight 2015-11-19T21:33:05Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:33:43Z newdan: jasom: I'm trying to run (loop (print (eval (read)))) using sbcl --script, but all the results are delayed (probably because the output doesn't get flushed because print doesn't add a newline) 2015-11-19T21:33:45Z mvilleneuve left #lisp 2015-11-19T21:34:20Z newdan: If I use (loop (format t "~S~% (eval (read)))) it works as intended but it... uh... isn't as cool 2015-11-19T21:34:52Z Xach: newdan: youc an use (force-output) also 2015-11-19T21:35:00Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:38:10Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:38:36Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:38:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:41:52Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T21:41:58Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:43:15Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:44:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:45:17Z Guest4228 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T21:54:37Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-19T21:58:44Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-19T21:58:48Z pjb: newdan: even with a newline, output is not flushed. Buffering doesn't work on a line-basis, but on a buffer-size basis. 2015-11-19T21:59:43Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T21:59:53Z pjb: newdan: you can write any variations of a REPL. The CL standard REPL however, is specified with some more amenities. cf. COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.INTERACTIVE.INTERACTIVE:REPL. 2015-11-19T22:00:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:00:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T22:00:44Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-11-19T22:01:22Z newdan: pjb: Newline does indeed seem to flush on SBCL 2015-11-19T22:01:51Z newdan: Happens in most languages 2015-11-19T22:04:32Z pjb: No, almost none. In all languages you have to use a flush operation for interactive use. 2015-11-19T22:04:40Z pjb: What do they teach you in school? 2015-11-19T22:04:51Z pjb: If they didn't teach you that, then ask for a refund. 2015-11-19T22:05:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:05:18Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:05:44Z axe: newdan you may be thinking most prints end with a \n, which is so the next print happens on a new line :) 2015-11-19T22:06:12Z newdan: pjb: I appreciate you insulting my intelligence but printf() in C will in fact flush the output buffer and it works the same in many scripting languages 2015-11-19T22:06:26Z newdan: pjb: See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1716296/why-does-printf-not-flush-after-the-call-unless-a-newline-is-in-the-format-strin 2015-11-19T22:06:27Z pjb: newdan: this is not how it's specified. 2015-11-19T22:06:52Z pjb: newdan: it's just by chance that the devices on which you print may flush early, but you should not count on it: not all devices behave the same. 2015-11-19T22:07:08Z pjb: and stackoverflow is no reference. blinds leading blinds. 2015-11-19T22:07:15Z newdan: pjb: Okay, whatever you say 2015-11-19T22:07:42Z pjb: or rather, popular blinds leading blinds, it's even worse, a popularity contest… 2015-11-19T22:08:53Z pjb: So about the newline on the end, usual interactive programs will print a prompt that's usually not terminated by a newline anyways. So it seems perfectly valid to write the newlines first, like it's done with lisp PRINT. 2015-11-19T22:09:01Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T22:09:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:10:35Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:15:08Z newdan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-19T22:15:08Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T22:15:16Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:15:20Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:16:03Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:19:14Z jasom: pjb: newdan is correct that sbcl flushes terminal output on a newline 2015-11-19T22:19:20Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-19T22:20:22Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:21:19Z sid_cypher: better safe than sorry, if manual flushing is a thing, you've got to consider using it or suffer the unforeseen consequences, mwahahahaa 2015-11-19T22:21:39Z jasom: sid_cypher: I agree but if pjb is going to be pedantic then he should at least be correct 2015-11-19T22:22:34Z jasom: It is also correct that there is no requirement for a lisp implementatin to flush output on newlines 2015-11-19T22:22:35Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:23:55Z sid_cypher: point to you :) But one day people will forget their toilet comes with a button, and then some stinky panic happens when the machine coughs. 2015-11-19T22:26:12Z jasom: before I go off and implement this, is there a common utility function for splitting a list of items into a list of lists where each sublist contains all items where a key is equal to a particular value? 2015-11-19T22:26:47Z jasom: e.g. (foo '(1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1)) => ((1 1) (2 2) (3 3) (4 4) (5)) 2015-11-19T22:27:02Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-19T22:28:35Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:29:52Z sid_cypher: jasom: doubt it. sort and collect groups? 2015-11-19T22:30:56Z sid_cypher: cumulative compexity should be O(n log(n)) 2015-11-19T22:31:08Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-19T22:34:10Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T22:34:17Z jasom: sid_cypher: yeah 2015-11-19T22:34:33Z jasom: Or loop through with a hash table for O(n) 2015-11-19T22:35:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:36:18Z sid_cypher: good catch. take more mem and a slow start, though :) 2015-11-19T22:36:24Z sid_cypher: *takes 2015-11-19T22:37:50Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-19T22:38:34Z prxq: jasom: sbcl flushes on newline, iirc, only on some predefined streams. If you open a file, it will not be, as a rule, line buffered. 2015-11-19T22:40:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:50:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-19T22:53:52Z jasom: prxq: which is why I said "terminal" 2015-11-19T22:55:06Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-19T22:56:11Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T22:59:48Z PHP_Virtuoso joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:01:44Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:06:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:07:02Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:09:52Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-19T23:09:59Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:12:24Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:13:20Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:14:31Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-19T23:22:51Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:24:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:24:58Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T23:25:55Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T23:27:23Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:28:50Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:33:12Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:33:36Z sweater is now known as Guest55665 2015-11-19T23:33:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:34:09Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T23:34:37Z rvchangue_ quit (Quit:  ) 2015-11-19T23:34:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-19T23:35:49Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:36:29Z lambda-11235 joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:41:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T23:41:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:41:36Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-19T23:47:46Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:50:16Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:51:26Z Guest55665 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:52:57Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-19T23:53:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:54:18Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-19T23:55:21Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:00:00Z muyinliu_ quit (Quit: Inactive user.) 2015-11-20T00:00:52Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-20T00:03:52Z bobbysmith007 quit (Ping timeout: 284 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:03:53Z ASau quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-20T00:04:27Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:04:37Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:04:38Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:10:00Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:12:58Z pjb: jasom: the point is not what sbcl does, but what code is conforming. it is not conforming to expect your I/O is completed if you don't flush. 2015-11-20T00:13:42Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:15:04Z schoppenhauer: hi. is there a library to use c++ libraries from lisp (that is, cares about name mangling and stuff) 2015-11-20T00:15:39Z schoppenhauer: or is the best way to use ECL? 2015-11-20T00:15:51Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:15:54Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:15:55Z pjb: jasom: furthermore, even if that was what sbcl does, it is not documented (at least, I couldn't find it being mentionned in a quick browsing of the sbcl manual). 2015-11-20T00:16:23Z pjb: schoppenhauer: the best way would be clasp, the new CL implementation from drmeister. 2015-11-20T00:16:57Z drmeister: Hi 2015-11-20T00:17:00Z ryan_vw left #lisp 2015-11-20T00:17:32Z pjb: jasom: there's COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST:EQUIVALENCE-CLASSES 2015-11-20T00:18:02Z schoppenhauer: pjb: how is clasp better than ecl? 2015-11-20T00:18:11Z drmeister: schoppenhauer: I'm about to announce a new release of Clasp - a Common Lisp implementation that inter operates with C++ 2015-11-20T00:18:42Z pjb: jasom: (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST:EQUIVALENCE-CLASSES '(1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1)) #| --> ((5) (4 4) (3 3) (2 2) (1 1)) |# 2015-11-20T00:18:48Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:19:13Z schoppenhauer: drmeister: ok. as far as i see, the main difference to ecl is that ecl emits c++ code, while clasp uses a patched version of llvm, right? 2015-11-20T00:19:34Z drmeister: schoppenhauer: clasp is designed from the ground up to inter operate with c++. clasp shares a lot of code with ECL 2015-11-20T00:19:42Z pjb: schoppenhauer: ecl doesn't deal with name mangling for C++ libraries. Generating C++ code will only help with your own code. 2015-11-20T00:20:00Z schoppenhauer: drmeister, pjb: ok. 2015-11-20T00:20:02Z schoppenhauer: thx. 2015-11-20T00:20:37Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T00:20:44Z drmeister: schoppenhauer: clasp lets you call c++ functions and expose c++ classes with just a few lines of code 2015-11-20T00:21:10Z drmeister: GitHub.com/drmeister/clasp 2015-11-20T00:23:19Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:23:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:24:03Z drmeister: schoppenhauer: Clasp doesn't use a patched version of LLVM. Clasp exposes the LLVM C++ library and uses it to generate native code ahead-of-time using COMPILE-FILE and just-in-time using COMPILE. 2015-11-20T00:26:16Z schoppenhauer: drmeister: hm. but I have to write my own glue code, right? so I can not just load a shared library? 2015-11-20T00:26:50Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:26:58Z schoppenhauer: at least the examples in https://github.com/drmeister/demo-clasp-cxx suggest this 2015-11-20T00:26:59Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:27:11Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:27:16Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:27:23Z sid_cypher: pjb: how did you even find that COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST package? 2015-11-20T00:27:51Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:27:57Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:27:58Z drmeister: Currently you have to write glue code for: int foo (int x, int y) { return x + y; } glue code: af_def("pkg","foo",&foo); 2015-11-20T00:28:35Z drmeister: This is a lot less than is required by an FFI 2015-11-20T00:29:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:29:27Z schoppenhauer: drmeister: ok. can I statically link? so at least the executable I get does not require shared libraries? 2015-11-20T00:29:43Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-11-20T00:29:52Z schoppenhauer: ok thx 2015-11-20T00:30:43Z drmeister: Static and dynamic linking are supported 2015-11-20T00:31:36Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-20T00:32:41Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:32:57Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-20T00:34:34Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:37:04Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:38:18Z linoge joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:38:36Z linoge quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-20T00:41:51Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-20T00:46:16Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:46:27Z sucks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T00:46:40Z malice: Hello, I have class X, that contains slot Y. I want to make sure that Y is one of '(a b c). How can I do that? 2015-11-20T00:46:52Z Bicyclidine: "make sure" when? 2015-11-20T00:47:01Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:47:12Z malice: After it's initialized. To make sure that it was passed with proper value. 2015-11-20T00:47:22Z malice: I tried initialize-instance, but I don't know how to do it properly. 2015-11-20T00:49:19Z Bicyclidine: something like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance X) &rest _) (declare (ignore _)) (check-type (y-accessor x) (member a b c))), i think. 2015-11-20T00:50:12Z pjb: sid_cypher: I just type (apropos "EQUIVALEN") 2015-11-20T00:50:23Z pjb: sid_cypher: it's already loaded from my rc file. 2015-11-20T00:50:53Z Bicyclidine: sid_cypher: informatimago is pjb's project 2015-11-20T00:51:43Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-20T00:52:20Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T00:52:33Z pjb: (defclass x () ((y :initarg :y :type (member a b c)))) #| --> # |# (make-instance 'x :y 'e) #| ERROR: The value e, derived from the initarg :y, can not be used to set the value of the slot y in #, because it is not of type (member a b c). |# 2015-11-20T00:52:56Z pjb: Most implementations do check the types of the slots. 2015-11-20T00:54:14Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-20T00:54:23Z pjb: (setf (slot-value (make-instance 'x :y 'a) 'y) 'd) #| ERROR: The value d can not be used to set the value of the slot y in #, because it is not of type (member a b c). |# 2015-11-20T00:54:58Z malice: pjb: It doesn't work for me, I'm using SBCL. 2015-11-20T00:55:03Z malice: And I'd prefer something reliable. 2015-11-20T00:56:12Z pjb: then indeed, you have to make explicit check-type calls in initialize-instance, in shared-initialize, in your setters, etc. 2015-11-20T00:56:21Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Have to write some Scheme) 2015-11-20T00:56:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:56:53Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-20T00:57:42Z malice: Yes, that's good. Thanks. For some reason I thought I can't use accessors in initalize-instance 2015-11-20T00:57:51Z malice: Bicyclidine: Thanks for code, it works. 2015-11-20T00:57:55Z Bicyclidine: surprising 2015-11-20T00:58:05Z Bicyclidine: you can't use accessors in the main method and stuff, on account of nothing is initialized 2015-11-20T00:58:06Z malice: Well, actually it doesn't, but I wanted to be nice 2015-11-20T00:58:12Z Bicyclidine: haha that's more like it 2015-11-20T00:58:21Z malice: it should be (y-accessor instance) 2015-11-20T00:58:21Z malice: ;) 2015-11-20T00:58:40Z Bicyclidine: pshhhhh 2015-11-20T00:58:53Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T00:58:59Z malice: But except for that it's great! 2015-11-20T01:05:05Z sid_cypher: pjb: Bicyclidine: oh, i see :) 2015-11-20T01:05:28Z vlnx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T01:06:15Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:06:54Z malice: One more question - how can I dynamically check type? 2015-11-20T01:07:23Z malice: e.g. I have list of types called Z and its value is '((a "" t) (b " " nil)) 2015-11-20T01:07:31Z malice: And I want to see if Y is either 'a or 'b 2015-11-20T01:07:47Z malice: I would normally do it with member with :key #'car 2015-11-20T01:07:47Z sid_cypher: malice: try etypecase ? 2015-11-20T01:08:37Z Bicyclidine: typep accepts runtime types 2015-11-20T01:08:51Z sid_cypher: oh, check for a whole list. then use find with a type-of based predicate, i guess 2015-11-20T01:09:04Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T01:09:33Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-20T01:09:43Z Bicyclidine: like, you can do (let ((z '((a "" t) (b " " nil)))) (assert (typep y `(member ,@(mapcar #'car z))))) 2015-11-20T01:09:51Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:10:12Z malice: Bicyclidine: But then again, if z changed in runtime, it wouldn't work, right? 2015-11-20T01:10:24Z Bicyclidine: of course it would work, why wouldn't it 2015-11-20T01:10:27Z Bicyclidine: typep is just a function 2015-11-20T01:11:06Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:11:23Z malice: Wrong assumption, I guess 2015-11-20T01:11:31Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:11:31Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2015-11-20T01:11:31Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:11:44Z Bicyclidine: (typep y (cons 'member (mapcar #'car z))) to avoid ` if you think of that as a macro thing 2015-11-20T01:11:48Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:13:30Z Bicyclidine: of course if you know it's going to be a member type you could just do (assert (find y (mapcar #'car z))) or something 2015-11-20T01:13:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:15:13Z dsp_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:15:13Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T01:16:34Z malice: Bicyclidine: I have no problem with it being there, I just thought for some reason that if it got compiled then all after backtick would be hardcoded 2015-11-20T01:17:21Z Bicyclidine: nah. backtick intrisically takes some kind of run time input, it's just that the run time in question is usually during macroexpansion. 2015-11-20T01:17:34Z malice: Good :) 2015-11-20T01:18:10Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:19:51Z Bicyclidine: the difference is that the return value of a backtick form is considered constant data which can't be mutated. in this case it doesn't matter since we're not mutating anything. 2015-11-20T01:20:39Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T01:20:39Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:20:44Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:20:53Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:20:59Z malice: I need to read more 2015-11-20T01:21:15Z malice: Bicyclidine: Did you read any Common Lisp books you can recommend? 2015-11-20T01:21:15Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:22:08Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:22:33Z Bicyclidine: PCL, the CLHS 2015-11-20T01:22:47Z Bicyclidine: clhs ` 2015-11-20T01:22:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2015-11-20T01:22:51Z Bicyclidine: pretty much explains the whole thing 2015-11-20T01:22:51Z ogamita1 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:23:06Z malice: What about On Lisp? 2015-11-20T01:23:34Z Bicyclidine: i don't like graham's books much. 2015-11-20T01:23:53Z malice: Bicyclidine: Why so? 2015-11-20T01:24:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:24:11Z sword```` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:24:58Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:24:58Z ogamita1 is now known as ogamita 2015-11-20T01:25:08Z Bicyclidine: writes weird (https://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html), and on lisp did some things with macros that seemed to me inadvisable. but it was a while ago 2015-11-20T01:27:15Z malice: Okay. 2015-11-20T01:27:17Z sunwukong: still I think it is a good read, you'll get much more comfortable with macros 2015-11-20T01:27:45Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:27:52Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-11-20T01:27:54Z malice: By the way, why are you using (assert (typep ...)) in second example, but (check-type) in first? 2015-11-20T01:28:20Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:29:18Z PHP_Virtuoso quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-20T01:31:19Z pjb: Notice that check-type can easily expand to assert. 2015-11-20T01:32:16Z Bicyclidine: malice: check-type doesn't evaluate its type 2015-11-20T01:33:15Z pjb: (check-type a integer) ≡ (assert (typep a 'integer) (a) 'simple-type-error :format-control "~S should be of type ~S instead of being ~S of type ~S" :format-arguments (list 'a 'integer a (type-of a))) 2015-11-20T01:33:39Z Bicyclidine: ie, check-type actually doesn't work with a runtime type. 2015-11-20T01:33:54Z malice: As I thought. Thanks. 2015-11-20T01:33:59Z pjb: What would you call a run-time type? 2015-11-20T01:34:08Z malice: Thanks for example, pjb 2015-11-20T01:34:44Z Bicyclidine: one that's not literally there in the source for whatever reason? are you going somewhere with this 2015-11-20T01:35:25Z pjb: types can be changing or be redefined at run-time, so even if the name is already defined at compilation time, check-type has to check it at run-time. 2015-11-20T01:35:47Z Bicyclidine: not relevant to malice's example 2015-11-20T01:36:43Z Bicyclidine: i guess i could say "runtime type specifiers" if you're going to be pedantic for some reason 2015-11-20T01:36:50Z sucks joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:37:26Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:37:38Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T01:38:15Z pjb: Well, for "run-time" types you would indeed use assert typep directly instead of check-type. 2015-11-20T01:38:43Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: ugh) 2015-11-20T01:38:56Z malice: :) 2015-11-20T01:39:08Z malice: Thanks again for help. I'm going to bed, goodnight everyone! 2015-11-20T01:46:03Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T01:49:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:51:16Z Guest55665 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:54:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-20T01:56:53Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-20T01:59:06Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:02:20Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:02:59Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:03:11Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-20T02:03:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:08:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T02:16:35Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:17:38Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:20:53Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:23:22Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-20T02:24:13Z katco: quicklisp appears to have an older version of yason (0.7.2) than is available (0.7.5)... is there a process for requesting an update? 2015-11-20T02:24:29Z Xach: katco: it normally happens automatically, each month 2015-11-20T02:24:37Z Xach: katco: but sometimes it depends on how a project is updated and released 2015-11-20T02:25:02Z Xach: quicklisp fetches yason from http://netzhansa.com/yason.tar.gz 2015-11-20T02:25:11Z katco: Xach: in this case, it appears as though 0.7.5 was released on 2015-06-14: https://github.com/hanshuebner/yason/commit/b357add4f96586ab5c81f2bf2fe3a25e9cb01124 2015-11-20T02:25:15Z Xach: if that location has the latest version, it will automatically go into quicklisp 2015-11-20T02:25:56Z Xach: hmm 2015-11-20T02:25:58Z katco: Xach: hm. 2015-11-20T02:26:10Z Xach: i would like to update quicklisp to fetch the latest github releases for some software, but it will just take some time to do it 2015-11-20T02:26:14Z katco: Xach: i'm not sure what the official location is, but it looks as if gh might be it 2015-11-20T02:28:19Z katco: Xach: ok, well at any rate i've brought it to your attention :) 2015-11-20T02:28:27Z katco: Xach: ty for the prompt response 2015-11-20T02:28:35Z Xach: H4ns might be able to update the old location temporarily 2015-11-20T02:28:42Z Xach: he owns both the website and the github repo 2015-11-20T02:29:01Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:29:01Z katco: Xach: that would be great if he's willing 2015-11-20T02:30:32Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T02:30:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:39:14Z fluter quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-11-20T02:40:02Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:40:39Z axion: what is a good way to pre-populate an array with a bunch of different instances? should i just loop over after make-array, or is there a better way? 2015-11-20T02:40:50Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:42:06Z Bike: i'd just loop. you could specify :initial-contents but it's about as much work and probably does about the same thing. 2015-11-20T02:42:19Z axion: that's what i figured. ok 2015-11-20T02:44:25Z Xach: axion: (map-into array (lambda () (make-instance ...))) is one easy way 2015-11-20T02:44:31Z blubjr` is now known as blubjr 2015-11-20T02:44:47Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T02:44:54Z Xach: see also http://lisptips.com/post/12070678005/initialize-a-vector-with-map-into 2015-11-20T02:45:06Z axion: interesting, thanks 2015-11-20T02:48:15Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:48:23Z axion: Xach: that won't work for this case, as it's a 2D array 2015-11-20T02:48:30Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-20T02:49:32Z Xach: ah 2015-11-20T02:49:44Z Xach: some of the comments there have some ideas 2015-11-20T02:49:50Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T02:50:01Z pjb: axion: it will work: (let ((w 3) (h 2)) (array-displacement (map-into (make-array (* w h) :displaced-to (make-array (list w h))) (lambda () (make-instance 'x))))) #| --> #2A((# #) (# #) (# #)) ; 0 |# 2015-11-20T02:52:26Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T03:00:47Z fantomik quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T03:07:19Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:09:14Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T03:09:57Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:10:29Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T03:12:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:12:44Z vydd: If anyone needs a throttling library implementing what I was looking for and tried to explain a couple of hours earlier, here it is: https://github.com/vydd/cl-throttle 2015-11-20T03:13:36Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T03:17:10Z Uptime quit (Quit: :}) 2015-11-20T03:19:25Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:20:12Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:20:46Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-20T03:22:32Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:24:07Z oceanpollen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T03:27:35Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:31:34Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:39:47Z Uptime quit (Quit: :}) 2015-11-20T03:42:29Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:43:04Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:43:10Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-20T03:45:37Z Guest55665 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-20T03:46:36Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:48:27Z Guest55665 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:49:49Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T03:50:46Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:52:52Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:53:22Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-20T03:53:47Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:58:31Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T03:58:45Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-20T03:59:02Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:01:22Z sucks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T04:01:47Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-20T04:02:07Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:05:06Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-20T04:07:48Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:08:07Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T04:08:15Z beach: *sigh* 2015-11-20T04:08:21Z beach: So much work, so little time. 2015-11-20T04:08:24Z Viaken quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T04:08:38Z jasom: beach: that's why I've never written my own lisp implementation from scratch ;-) 2015-11-20T04:08:55Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T04:08:59Z beach: You should have told me before I started SICL. :) 2015-11-20T04:09:08Z Viaken joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:09:32Z jasom: It's also why I assume that any new implementation will fail; the scope is just so large that few people are stubborn enough to finish 2015-11-20T04:09:34Z beach: ... and CLIM3/CLIMatis, Second Climacs, ... 2015-11-20T04:10:02Z beach: I am pretty stubborn, though. 2015-11-20T04:10:33Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-20T04:10:40Z beach: I think the key is to make individual modules usable. Like Cleavir. 2015-11-20T04:11:27Z beach: And that is why I created Acclimation and Clump; previously part of SICL and Second Climacs respectively. 2015-11-20T04:12:00Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-20T04:13:36Z beach: SICL itself is also supposed to be like that; consisting of independent modules that are usable without the entire system being finished. 2015-11-20T04:15:23Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T04:17:35Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:19:02Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T04:20:26Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T04:28:36Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:28:39Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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That always tips the scales back in terms of motivation. 2015-11-20T04:53:38Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T04:57:05Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-11-20T04:59:16Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T05:00:34Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T05:03:46Z drmeister: Hi beach - what's up? 2015-11-20T05:06:11Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-20T05:07:53Z beach: Sorry, was away. Now I'm back. 2015-11-20T05:08:09Z beach: pillton: What kind of "win"? 2015-11-20T05:08:40Z beach: drmeister: I am trying to get rid of this stubborn cold that I caught some 10 days ago. 2015-11-20T05:08:43Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:08:47Z pillton: beach: The type that boosts morale. 2015-11-20T05:09:03Z drmeister: Bah - colds. 2015-11-20T05:09:13Z beach: drmeister: Do you have a molecule for me? 2015-11-20T05:09:25Z beach: pillton: A bit vague, but I get the point. 2015-11-20T05:09:28Z Xach: hacker, heal thyself 2015-11-20T05:09:34Z pjb: Vitamine C 2015-11-20T05:09:38Z drmeister: I might have one for AIDS but not the common cold at the moment. 2015-11-20T05:09:47Z beach: Oh, well. 2015-11-20T05:09:50Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:09:57Z pjb: Common Cold: 8 days with drugs, one week without. 2015-11-20T05:10:20Z pjb: Just stay hot, drink grogs. 2015-11-20T05:11:12Z drmeister: beach: Can I pull a new version of sicl at any time? 2015-11-20T05:11:16Z beach: Thanks. I think I am doing everything I am supposed to in order to alleviate the symptoms. 2015-11-20T05:11:25Z beach: drmeister: Yes. 2015-11-20T05:11:35Z beach: drmeister: In theory, nothing should break. 2015-11-20T05:11:49Z drmeister: Is there anything new that I can take advantage of? 2015-11-20T05:11:51Z beach: drmeister: But you are a more sophisticated Cleavir user than I am. 2015-11-20T05:11:58Z beach: drmeister: Not yet. 2015-11-20T05:12:01Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-20T05:12:42Z drmeister: Ok. I'll wait until after I release Clasp 0.4 2015-11-20T05:13:09Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out the archaic Lisp code that I wrote before I started Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:13:23Z drmeister: I can't find a thread to unravel it with - it was so complicated. 2015-11-20T05:13:43Z beach: What does the code do? 2015-11-20T05:14:06Z drmeister: It defines a database of molecular fragments and allows one to build larger molecules from those fragments. 2015-11-20T05:15:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T05:15:15Z drmeister: It uses lots of classes to define fragments, how they couple together, what their shapes are, how one fragment is build from the coordinates of another fragment... It all starts from sketches of the fragments and builds everything from there. 2015-11-20T05:15:53Z drmeister: I think I might have a more recent version on my old desktop computer that broke down just before I started Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:16:13Z beach: Oh, no GIT? 2015-11-20T05:16:25Z drmeister: I have to pull the hard-drives out and search them. It had a raid system. Oh god - this is going to be awful. 2015-11-20T05:16:33Z drmeister: No, I used SVN in those days. 2015-11-20T05:18:50Z drmeister: The C++ code I have, I also have archaic Lisp code. But it's a complete jumble of old and new versions. I was developing the language as I was writing it. It was insane. That's why I decided on Common Lisp. At least then I'd have a standard to adhere to. 2015-11-20T05:20:19Z beach: What language were you developing? I don't think I have heard this before. 2015-11-20T05:20:20Z drmeister: So I have the C++ code working and Clasp working and ideally I could translate the archaic Lisp code into Common Lisp. But it would be best if I had a working copy from those days of olde. I haven't been able to recover that yet. 2015-11-20T05:20:27Z drmeister: It was a lisp. 2015-11-20T05:20:36Z beach: Oh, Lisp but not Common Lisp. 2015-11-20T05:20:47Z drmeister: Something between Python and Lisp. 2015-11-20T05:20:55Z beach: Oh, dear! 2015-11-20T05:21:01Z drmeister: A platypus language 2015-11-20T05:21:05Z drmeister: Yes indeed. 2015-11-20T05:21:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HoBhBzAH/ 2015-11-20T05:21:56Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:22:03Z drmeister: It makes my eyes bleed now when I read it. 2015-11-20T05:22:51Z drmeister: I have thousands of lines of this stuff. 2015-11-20T05:23:07Z beach: Wow. 2015-11-20T05:23:14Z beach: What made you go down that path? 2015-11-20T05:24:11Z beach: I mean, writing a Lisp system is hard enough. Designing a new language is an order of magnitude harder. 2015-11-20T05:24:50Z drmeister: I got tired of Python and I was able to hack together a lisp interpreter in a few days. Then I kept adding to it. It worked really well with my ideas for building molecules. I ran that code on a 40,000 CPU supercomputer. 2015-11-20T05:26:00Z Bike: i've worked with one-PI DSLs before... hopefully yours at least had coherent scoping semantics 2015-11-20T05:26:16Z drmeister: I pulled back from the cliffs of madness soon enough and decided to implement a standard Lisp. Scheme or Common Lisp was my choice. Continuations and a single namespace for functions and variables looked like a simplistic fetishism - so I went with Common Lisp. 2015-11-20T05:26:24Z beach: drmeister: So what is now about to be released has an even longer history than you have previously told us? I mean, it is fair to say that Clasp started off as a different language. 2015-11-20T05:26:53Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-11-20T05:27:21Z drmeister: Using reference counting for memory "management". It's been a very interesting journey. 2015-11-20T05:27:22Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:27:25Z Bike: well, it's not that surprising. the repo had a ton of leftovers from cando. 2015-11-20T05:27:45Z drmeister: Yes, and now Cando is running on top of Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:28:13Z Bike: hm, last time i looked through your ACS papers i couldn't get the one on cando, maybe i should look again 2015-11-20T05:28:15Z ben_vulpes is looking forward to the working molecular simulator 2015-11-20T05:28:18Z drmeister: But the Lisp code that I wrote for the old Cando is a mess and I haven't figured it out well enough to reimplement it. 2015-11-20T05:28:36Z drmeister: There isn't one. 2015-11-20T05:28:53Z drmeister: There will be one I guess. I'll release it as a programming language for Chemistry. 2015-11-20T05:29:06Z Bike: I thought I saw a paper about it... hm 2015-11-20T05:29:08Z drmeister: Like R is for statistical analysis. 2015-11-20T05:29:19Z drmeister: If there is, I didn't write it. 2015-11-20T05:29:39Z Bike: hehhhhh. 2015-11-20T05:30:00Z Bike: what's usual in computational chemistry? fortran? some thing i'd never heard of before like IDL? 2015-11-20T05:30:28Z drmeister: I should just start from scratch - screw the old code - rewrite what I think the code should do. 2015-11-20T05:30:50Z drmeister: Computational chemistry is Fortran, C, C++ and Python for the most part. 2015-11-20T05:31:10Z drmeister: Matlab and R bring up the rear. 2015-11-20T05:31:49Z Bike looks through papers until he finds the one with two nine-syllable neogoloisms 2015-11-20T05:33:10Z pillton: drmeister: Do you do stuff like they do in that TED talk "Animations of an unseeable biology"? 2015-11-20T05:33:25Z drmeister: I haven't seen it. 2015-11-20T05:33:58Z Bike: well, do you do visualization particularly? i didn't get the impression you did. 2015-11-20T05:34:27Z Bike: oh, here's what i was thinking of. "Schafmeister, C. E.CANDO: Computer Aided Nanostructure Design and Optimization software package - under development; 2012." somehow i thought that was a paper. 2015-11-20T05:34:38Z drmeister: No. I need to build billions of molecules. There isn't time to look through them all. 2015-11-20T05:34:47Z drmeister: Everything needs to be automated. 2015-11-20T05:34:48Z Bike: i'm not used to citations directly to software, i admit 2015-11-20T05:36:53Z drmeister: Have you seen much CL code use #/ as a reader macro? 2015-11-20T05:37:14Z drmeister is looking for a convenient reader macro for chemistry symbols. 2015-11-20T05:37:34Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:37:47Z drmeister: I was thinking of using ~ but then thought maybe a sharp-sign macro would be better. 2015-11-20T05:37:57Z sweater is now known as Guest47096 2015-11-20T05:38:02Z Bike: i don't think i've ever seen that, but my first thought would be that it'd be a regex. 2015-11-20T05:38:14Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T05:38:29Z drmeister: What do you think about using ~ 2015-11-20T05:38:44Z drmeister: ~foo --> 'ckw:FOO 2015-11-20T05:39:05Z drmeister: the "CKW" package stores chemistry symbols. 2015-11-20T05:39:30Z Bike: I guess I don't see why not. 2015-11-20T05:43:40Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-20T05:43:45Z zotherstupidguy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T05:43:59Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:44:04Z drmeister: It's the only unused single character CL allows as a reader macro - correct? 2015-11-20T05:44:10Z drmeister: I can't find the clhs page on it. 2015-11-20T05:44:16Z drmeister: That mentions it. 2015-11-20T05:44:40Z drmeister: Shinmera and I had this discussion a long time ago - that's where I recall this from. 2015-11-20T05:44:43Z beach: [, ], {, }, ! are available I think. 2015-11-20T05:44:50Z pillton: clhs 2.4.8 2015-11-20T05:44:50Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 2015-11-20T05:45:48Z drmeister: No, I mean as single character reader macros. 2015-11-20T05:46:00Z drmeister: Like | " ' etc 2015-11-20T05:46:45Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T05:46:55Z pillton: Oh sorry. 2015-11-20T05:46:59Z pillton: clhs 2.1.4 2015-11-20T05:47:00Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm 2015-11-20T05:47:02Z pillton: ? 2015-11-20T05:47:38Z beach: Right. 2015-11-20T05:47:52Z beach: In Figure 2-7, the characters marked with *. 2015-11-20T05:47:52Z Bike: "reserved to implementors", oops. 2015-11-20T05:48:22Z Bike: also, glanced through the ccl manual and i think ccl defines #/ for objc stuff. 2015-11-20T05:48:29Z beach: The characters marked with an asterisk (*) are initially constituents, but they are not used in any standard Common Lisp notations. These characters are explicitly reserved to the programmer 2015-11-20T05:48:47Z Bike: hm, or not 2015-11-20T05:48:49Z drmeister: Right - "reserved for implementers" - that's me! 2015-11-20T05:49:29Z Bike: is it? I didn't think the chemistry stuff was part of the implementation. 2015-11-20T05:49:51Z Bike: «These reader macros include "#_" to read foreign function names, "#&" to read foreign variable names (note that in earlier versions of OpenMCL the reader macro "#?" was used for this same purpose), "#$" to read foreign constant names, "#/" to read the names of foreign Objective-C methods, and "#>" to read keywords that can be used as the names of types, records, and accessors.» 2015-11-20T05:49:58Z Bike: and yet they don't seem to work in my ccl. weird. 2015-11-20T05:49:59Z beach: He can define it in Clasp, and then announce that CANDO only runs in Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:50:11Z Bike: i guess, but that kinda blows. 2015-11-20T05:50:41Z beach: It is not what I would do, but it's drmeister's choice. 2015-11-20T05:50:46Z drmeister: It's not part of Clasp - but I have a whole other program called Cando that merges about 150,000 lines of C++ into Clasp. It defines chemistry classes and functions. It's Clasp + chemistry. 2015-11-20T05:51:31Z drmeister: I was going to use the ~ character in Cando, not Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:51:46Z Bike: right. so you're more of a programmer than an implementor. 2015-11-20T05:51:47Z beach: Well, that's more questionable. 2015-11-20T05:52:02Z Bike: not that it matters much, since i don't think implementations use ~ anyway. 2015-11-20T05:52:20Z beach will immediately define it in SICL. :) 2015-11-20T05:52:28Z drmeister: Cando is supposed to be a superset of Common Lisp - what I don't want to do is lose the ability to run Common Lisp code in Cando. 2015-11-20T05:52:52Z Bike: i mean, it seems more like it's a program written in common lisp? 2015-11-20T05:53:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:53:14Z beach: What you lose with ~ is the ability to run CANDO in an implementation of Common Lisp other than Clasp. 2015-11-20T05:53:44Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:53:59Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T05:54:19Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T05:54:23Z beach: But yeah, probably doesn't matter much. 2015-11-20T05:54:38Z drmeister: It will be a long time before we develop the FFI to expose Cando C++ code to other Common Lisps'. It needs to be garbage collected. 2015-11-20T05:54:59Z beach: I was thinking more of translating Cando to Common Lisp. 2015-11-20T05:55:11Z beach: ... as I have suggested in the past. 2015-11-20T05:55:35Z drmeister: Then you could translate ~FOO -> #{whatever}FOO 2015-11-20T05:55:50Z beach: Especially now when most of the C++ code is no longer used, since it had to do with memory management and other aspects now handled by Common Lisp. 2015-11-20T05:56:01Z drmeister: Or I could pick a #{whatever} sharpsign character and use that now. What would you recommend? 2015-11-20T05:56:26Z beach: Why do you reject {...}, [...], !..., and ?...? 2015-11-20T05:56:34Z Bike: you could use ? or !, yeah. 2015-11-20T05:56:43Z drmeister: #!foo? 2015-11-20T05:56:50Z Bike: just by itself. 2015-11-20T05:56:52Z beach: Why do you insist on # 2015-11-20T05:56:52Z drmeister: or !foo ? 2015-11-20T05:57:03Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-20T05:57:12Z Bike: !foo -> 'ckw:foo and such 2015-11-20T05:57:17Z drmeister: I thought ! was a valid symbol character? 2015-11-20T05:57:41Z beach: drmeister: pillton gave you the Common Lisp HyperSpec page, and I gave you the quotation. 2015-11-20T05:57:46Z drmeister: Can I do that? I didn't think ! was available to me. 2015-11-20T05:57:54Z beach: *sigh* 2015-11-20T05:58:01Z Bike: yeah, you can. 2015-11-20T05:58:29Z drmeister: Ok, I see. 2015-11-20T05:58:31Z Bike: well, this is pretty bikesheddy since reasonably speaking you can just limit the extent of what's read with your macro anyway. 2015-11-20T05:58:48Z drmeister: Why is using a character available to the programmer better than using the one available to the implementer? 2015-11-20T05:59:07Z Bike: cos if you use one for the implementor it'll be harder to port the program to another implementation. 2015-11-20T05:59:21Z drmeister: If that implementation uses it? 2015-11-20T05:59:24Z drmeister: Of course. 2015-11-20T05:59:25Z Bike: ye. 2015-11-20T05:59:47Z Bike: ~ also starts as a valid symbol constituent, anyway 2015-11-20T05:59:51Z drmeister: But using ! means any other code that uses ! will conflict with Cando won't it? 2015-11-20T06:00:05Z Bike: well, that's where limiting scope comes in 2015-11-20T06:00:07Z beach: Use your own readtable. 2015-11-20T06:00:15Z Bike: read cando files with !, the rest with whatever else, no problem 2015-11-20T06:00:39Z drmeister: Ok, I see. 2015-11-20T06:00:51Z drmeister: I like ! better than ~. ~ looks too much like - 2015-11-20T06:02:26Z drmeister: Ok, I'm heading off to bed. 2015-11-20T06:02:33Z Bike: l8r 2015-11-20T06:02:39Z drmeister: Thanks for the suggestions folks. 2015-11-20T06:03:50Z aerique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T06:05:57Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:08:22Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T06:08:41Z mac_ified quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T06:11:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:21:25Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:21:54Z ryy00 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:27:05Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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They're reserved for user reader macros. 2015-11-20T06:48:51Z pjb: as an implementer, you can use freely . and : to introduce new syntaxes! 2015-11-20T06:49:23Z pjb: (now of course, this could be a problem if you expect them to be implemented as reader macros on other implementations). 2015-11-20T06:50:52Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:52:36Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:52:36Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-20T06:52:36Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-20T06:55:33Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T06:56:15Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T06:59:29Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-20T07:00:58Z ryy00 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-20T07:04:52Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-11-20T07:06:44Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-11-20T07:09:50Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T07:13:00Z prxq_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T07:16:34Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2015-11-20T15:24:19Z Xach: ok. hmm. wonder what's up for me. 2015-11-20T15:24:37Z luis: Maybe it's the Atlantic Ocean. 2015-11-20T15:25:00Z Xach: could be 2015-11-20T15:25:08Z Xach: lousy waves 2015-11-20T15:26:44Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:28:59Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:34:08Z bobbysmith007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T15:36:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:36:48Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:37:11Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:37:54Z Kruppe- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T15:38:33Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:38:38Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:41:50Z Xach: getting 60% packet loss through london :( 2015-11-20T15:42:34Z Xof: the packets 2015-11-20T15:42:36Z Xof: they are all mine 2015-11-20T15:42:40Z H4ns: the internet is overall slow today. i think there is some global routing dissonance that causes it. 2015-11-20T15:43:24Z H4ns: (from europe, that is) 2015-11-20T15:43:41Z Shinmera: At least there's no big DDOSing going on at the moment. 2015-11-20T15:44:14Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:44:34Z H4ns: "as far as you know" 2015-11-20T15:44:40Z Shinmera: Right. 2015-11-20T15:47:09Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:50:49Z Xach: H4ns: are you interested in updating yason.tar.gz on netzhansa.com? 2015-11-20T15:51:42Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T15:51:49Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T15:52:05Z H4ns: Xach: updating in what respect? is it not current? 2015-11-20T15:52:22Z Xach: H4ns: hmm, yesterday someone said the github release is newer. i did not double-check. i will double-check now. 2015-11-20T15:52:48Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-20T15:53:02Z Xach: http://netzhansa.com/yason.tar.gz has 0.7.2 and github has 0.7.5 2015-11-20T15:53:16Z H4ns: Xach: it is certainly meant to be current, so that would be a bug. i'll have a look, thanks! 2015-11-20T15:54:11Z H4ns: oh, i've just recognized that the netzhansa.com url is not mentioned in the README. I guess I'll just delete the file. 2015-11-20T15:57:30Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-11-20T15:58:31Z Xach: that is the file i use in quicklisp. should i use github instead? 2015-11-20T15:59:17Z H4ns: yes please! 2015-11-20T15:59:33Z Xach: ok 2015-11-20T16:07:48Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:08:18Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-20T16:08:51Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T16:09:20Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:10:04Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:10:13Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:10:56Z anti-freeze quit 2015-11-20T16:11:36Z loke_: Xach: You there? 2015-11-20T16:11:48Z Xach: loke_: hello 2015-11-20T16:11:59Z loke_: Hello Xach! I have a question for you. 2015-11-20T16:12:03Z Xach: ok 2015-11-20T16:12:24Z loke_: Xach: Who is it that QL installs ASDF version 2.x in its root? 2015-11-20T16:12:33Z Xach: who? 2015-11-20T16:12:45Z loke_: Xach: OK, let me clarify 2015-11-20T16:13:01Z Xach: i think i would have understand if it started with "why"? 2015-11-20T16:13:06Z loke_: I wanted to test some stuff on CLISP, and I kept failing to load iolib becaus eit was complaining that ASDF was too old. 2015-11-20T16:13:27Z loke_: Turns out, it was because there was an old asdf.lisp in the quicklisp directory. 2015-11-20T16:13:39Z Xach: if you want to use asdf 3 on asdf, you have to load it on your own. 2015-11-20T16:14:50Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-20T16:15:51Z loke_: Xach: Yeah, I noticed. But why is that? Can't QL install ASDF 3? 2015-11-20T16:16:40Z Xach: When I started quicklisp, some implementations did not provide any asdf, or provided a really old 1.0 version. since asdf 2 came out recently, i decided that if asdf was missing or too old, i would provide asdf to make things work. 2015-11-20T16:17:09Z Xach: recent asdf development have changed a lot, added a lot, broke a lot, fixed a lot, and implementations now all generall provide asdf 3 2015-11-20T16:17:28Z loke_: Xach: Yeah, except CLISP 2015-11-20T16:17:38Z Xach: i am not eager to be on the forefront of making asdf 3 available everywhere. i haven't had time to try it myself, encourage others to test, and make the update. 2015-11-20T16:17:40Z loke_: Would it make sense to update QL's ASDF for CLISP's sake? 2015-11-20T16:17:44Z lisse quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-20T16:18:14Z loke_: Does QL install the lastest asdf2? 2015-11-20T16:18:14Z Xach: clisp does not include asdf in any form. i don't think clisp is a viable implementation right now. 2015-11-20T16:18:33Z Xach: quicklisp loads asdf 2 if there is no asdf, or only asdf 1 2015-11-20T16:18:38Z loke_: Xach: To be honest, I was almost able to run Potato on CLISP :-) 2015-11-20T16:18:51Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-20T16:19:03Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:19:03Z Xach: I would like to update to asdf 3 in quicklisp sometime, but clisp is not a motivating factor 2015-11-20T16:19:08Z loke_: And right now it does a better job at it than CCL (because of a single issue I have with CCL, not being able to build a condition-broadcast for it) 2015-11-20T16:20:34Z Xach: if you want to use asdf 3 in clisp without loading it yourself, you could be a community hero by taking over clisp development!! 2015-11-20T16:20:43Z dfcat joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:21:18Z loke_: Xach: I know. Updated CLISP would be nice actually, but I'm not the person to do it. 2015-11-20T16:21:20Z Ardeshir joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:21:25Z loke_: I have other projects :-) 2015-11-20T16:23:22Z lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 2015-11-20T16:23:23Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T16:25:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:30:47Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:34:40Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T16:36:59Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:37:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:37:45Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:38:02Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:39:16Z mbrock joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:39:20Z dbrock- joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:40:35Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T16:41:05Z ssake quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-20T16:41:24Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:42:24Z lisse quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-20T16:43:33Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:43:54Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-20T16:44:46Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:45:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:45:37Z ssake quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-20T16:45:57Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:46:49Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:46:51Z ssake quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-20T16:47:54Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:48:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:50:21Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:51:11Z dbrock- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T16:56:36Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:57:11Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-20T16:59:35Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:02:14Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:02:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:04:05Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:05:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:06:44Z cyphase_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:06:45Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:07:16Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:12:26Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:14:30Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:14:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:17:48Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T17:17:58Z zch quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:19:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T17:21:50Z abaugher quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-20T17:22:28Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:24:26Z oem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T17:25:02Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:28:19Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:28:23Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:28:30Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:28:43Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:28:49Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:29:17Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:29:31Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:29:54Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:33:40Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-20T17:35:00Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:39:51Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T17:41:07Z grees joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:41:07Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-20T17:42:25Z jasom: loke_: did you see my condition-broadcast code? 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for example, I don't want reader macros to work. 2015-11-20T19:24:11Z puchacz: basically, if 2 lisp apps talk to each other, no point in using json 2015-11-20T19:24:12Z dlowe: puchacz: the usual answer is "don't do that" 2015-11-20T19:24:41Z dlowe: though there's a sad lack of separate s-expr readers 2015-11-20T19:24:41Z puchacz: but using json library is really silly 2015-11-20T19:24:58Z samlamam` joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:25:14Z puchacz: okay, json then 2015-11-20T19:27:15Z samlamamma quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:27:15Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:27:35Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:27:58Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:28:00Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:32:28Z jasom: puchacz: use a serialization library 2015-11-20T19:33:03Z jasom: though I don't know that any of the ones that aren't json or xml support untrusted input 2015-11-20T19:33:06Z puchacz: jasom: which one is being loved these days? 2015-11-20T19:33:13Z puchacz: ah 2015-11-20T19:33:59Z jasom: oh conspack 2015-11-20T19:34:08Z jasom: https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack 2015-11-20T19:34:16Z jasom: I haven't used it yet, but it's on my list of things to check out 2015-11-20T19:34:31Z puchacz: added to my list too :-) 2015-11-20T19:34:46Z jasom: It ticks off all the checkboxes for this sort of thing 2015-11-20T19:35:28Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:37:22Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:37:45Z jasom: but any time you decode from an untrusted source into symbols, you do open yourself up to a DoS attack as they can force you to intern more and more symbols 2015-11-20T19:38:11Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:38:13Z puchacz: I know 2015-11-20T19:38:55Z puchacz: DoS are problem in general 2015-11-20T19:39:54Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:40:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:41:27Z puchacz: if I encounter this, I will need to read about garbage collecting symbols 2015-11-20T19:41:47Z puchacz: or maintaining packages 2015-11-20T19:42:02Z puchacz: it is a low level problem 2015-11-20T19:43:32Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:45:24Z puchacz: conspack looks good indeed. will try it now 2015-11-20T19:45:47Z samlamam` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T19:46:38Z pjb: puchacz: COM.INFORMATIMAGO.TOOLS.READER-MACRO:REMOVE-ALL-MACRO-CHARACTERS 2015-11-20T19:47:28Z puchacz: pjb: thanks as well. do you use it for for communication with untrusted apps? 2015-11-20T19:47:43Z puchacz: I mean my app is trusted, but somebody can impersonate it 2015-11-20T19:47:54Z pjb: Yes. You want to control all the reader macros in the read table you use to read untrusted data. 2015-11-20T19:47:59Z pjb: Exactly. 2015-11-20T19:48:24Z puchacz: pjb: and DoS by overloading you with a lot of symbols? did you encounter this problem? 2015-11-20T19:48:43Z puchacz: maybe there are so many modes of DoS that I don't need to worry about this particular one 2015-11-20T19:49:36Z pjb: For example: http://paste.lisp.org/+3FIO 2015-11-20T19:50:14Z pjb: You may also put a reader macro on #\: to disable symbol qualifying so you can ensure all the symbols are read in a given package, which can be a throwable package. 2015-11-20T19:50:48Z puchacz: good idea 2015-11-20T19:50:52Z jasom: this doesn't solve the problem of unprintable objects of course 2015-11-20T19:51:14Z pjb: read errors are no problem, it's just a protocol violation. 2015-11-20T19:51:37Z jasom: pjb: no, I mean if you want to send hash-tables, for example 2015-11-20T19:51:46Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:51:48Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-20T19:51:53Z jasom: You'd need to define your own printer and corresponding read-macro for that 2015-11-20T19:52:04Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T19:52:50Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-20T19:54:19Z puchacz: yeah, but that's fine. I don't expect all lisp objects to be serialisable 2015-11-20T19:55:12Z pjb: jasom: yes, of course, you define your own reader macros. This is what "control" means. 2015-11-20T19:55:53Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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That will only work if all the values are already special though, right? 2015-11-20T21:31:27Z pjb: No, this is not a good idea. 2015-11-20T21:31:49Z pjb: The variables will be special inside the progv, or where they are declared as such. Not necessarily globally. 2015-11-20T21:32:17Z jasom: I'm pretty sure they won't be special inside the body of the progv 2015-11-20T21:32:18Z Wojciech_K quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T21:32:32Z Bicyclidine: not without declarations, no. 2015-11-20T21:32:34Z jasom: though I'm basing this off of an example from the hyperspec, and the examples are non-normative 2015-11-20T21:32:40Z pjb: jasom: the point is that (list :a …) is a run-time expression. If you know the variable NAMES only at run-time, what use is there to bind them for a body known at compilation time? 2015-11-20T21:32:58Z pjb: This is an idiotic request (until you show us you have a Tardis). 2015-11-20T21:33:35Z pjb: (defun f () (declare (special a)) a) #| --> f |# (progv '(a) '(42) (f)) #| --> 42 |# 2015-11-20T21:33:51Z pjb: it is dynamic, not INSIDE, but WHEN progv is evaluating. 2015-11-20T21:33:58Z pjb: dynamic = TIME, lexical = SPACE. 2015-11-20T21:34:12Z pjb: So, a Tardis anybody? 2015-11-20T21:34:25Z jasom: pjb: It is not an idiotic request (assuming an idiotic request is a request likely to have been made by an idiot); Most people learning lisp at some point would like to manipulate lexical bindings at runtime, and need to have explained to them why it's not possible... 2015-11-20T21:34:43Z pjb: dynamic = TIME, lexical = SPACE. 2015-11-20T21:35:33Z pjb: Yeah, I know, I expect people to be time travellers, or at least to know relativity. I expected to live in an enlighted society, flying thru stars and exploring the galaxy. 2015-11-20T21:35:46Z pjb: Instead we have savage regressing apes. 2015-11-20T21:35:54Z newdan: pjb: wow 2015-11-20T21:36:18Z jasom: pjb: If you expect an enlightened society, perhaps IRC is not right for you. 2015-11-20T21:36:32Z Xach: I remember when I first learned about multiple-value-bind, and I didn't realize the bindings only took effect in the body. I thought it was more like what multiple-value-setq does. 2015-11-20T21:36:32Z pjb: It's a filter thought. 2015-11-20T21:36:41Z Xach: so much head scratching 2015-11-20T21:37:48Z jasom: Xach: I came from C, so when I first learned about lexical vs. dynamic bindings my thought was "but those are exactly the same for non-globals", because in C that's essentially true. 2015-11-20T21:38:38Z pjb: jasom: there are no dynamic bindings in C. You would have to implement them yourself (eg. using malloc). 2015-11-20T21:38:47Z jasom: though of course you can implement dynamic bindings with a combination of globals and unwind-protect 2015-11-20T21:40:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T21:41:37Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T21:44:38Z jasom: axion: so to sum up, what you want to do is not possible; once you figure out why it's not possible, you will understand lexical bindings more. pjb thinks the question is idiotic, wheras I merely think it shows a lack of experience 2015-11-20T21:44:38Z ogamita quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T21:45:00Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-20T21:47:59Z pjb: jasom: you could use destructuring-bind: (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (list :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) (do-something a b c)) 2015-11-20T21:48:15Z pjb: jasom: but notice how the variables are known at compilation time! 2015-11-20T21:48:33Z jasom: pjb: right you need to know the names at compile time if you want to establish lexical bindings 2015-11-20T21:48:33Z pjb: `(destructuring-bind (&key a b c) ,neighbors ,@body) 2015-11-20T21:48:49Z pjb: jasom: when is the BODY defined? 2015-11-20T21:48:54Z pjb: jasom: WHEN is the BODY defined? 2015-11-20T21:50:11Z jasom: yeah presumably if you know the body, you know the names somewhere 2015-11-20T21:51:16Z pjb: (defun f () (let ((lvars (read)) (lvals (read))) (progv lvars lvals (+ a b)))) ;Compiler warnings :; In f: Undeclared free variable a; In f: Undeclared free variable b 2015-11-20T21:51:16Z pjb: 2015-11-20T21:51:49Z Bicyclidine: i am pretty sure jasom knows how progv works 2015-11-20T21:52:06Z pjb: I am pretty sure he never pondered the implications. 2015-11-20T21:52:07Z erjoalgo: i need to write something like a jigsaw puzzle game, where the user is allowed to drag pieces on the screen. what kind of library can I use? 2015-11-20T21:52:31Z pjb: erjoalgo: cl-dragging-jigsaw-puzzle of course. 2015-11-20T21:53:03Z Xach: erjoalgo: when i was doing some drag-on-a-screen things, i used a browser. 2015-11-20T21:53:09Z Xach: the backend was CL 2015-11-20T21:53:51Z jasom: pjb: you could certainly wrap all your variable referrences in symbol-value but if you're doing that you could just pull those names out at macroexpand time and use lexical bindings 2015-11-20T21:54:07Z newdan: erjoalgo: What's your target platform? PC? Phone? 2015-11-20T21:54:49Z n2kra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T21:55:55Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T21:58:02Z kyfho quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-20T21:58:35Z erjoalgo: it doesn't really matter, but actually, i should probably do this in javascript 2015-11-20T21:58:39Z erjoalgo: if possible 2015-11-20T21:58:56Z erjoalgo: yeah, Xach, that makes sense 2015-11-20T21:59:18Z newdan: I dunno of anything but Parenscript for doing CL in the browser 2015-11-20T21:59:26Z badkins quit 2015-11-20T21:59:30Z newdan: erjoalgo: ^ 2015-11-20T22:00:11Z mordocai: newdan: erjoalgo: https://github.com/davazp/jscl as well. Haven't used either though. 2015-11-20T22:01:04Z Shinmera: JSCL is woefully incomplete :( 2015-11-20T22:03:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:07:31Z pjb: Well you'd use a javascript library anyways to do the drag-and-dropping. Then you can use parenscript to drive the javascript library. 2015-11-20T22:08:14Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T22:08:36Z jasom: jscl has the goal of being a semi-complete lisp-to-js compiler; parenscript has the goal of being a DSL for generating javascript, with CL macros. 2015-11-20T22:10:06Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:10:08Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:12:45Z jasom: jscl is to parenscript roughly as clicc is to something like c-amplify 2015-11-20T22:14:51Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-20T22:15:49Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-20T22:19:28Z newdan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-20T22:22:45Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:28:35Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:30:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:30:54Z wch quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-20T22:31:01Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:31:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T22:38:51Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T22:40:46Z allezbluez quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-20T22:42:25Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-20T22:46:04Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T22:47:56Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-20T22:48:35Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:49:11Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:49:23Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:49:30Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:50:06Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:50:27Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:50:27Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:50:35Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-20T22:52:18Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:54:29Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-20T22:56:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-20T22:58:41Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:00:58Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:04:07Z heddwch is now known as wch 2015-11-20T23:05:39Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-20T23:06:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:06:37Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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JS parses too long. 2015-11-20T23:33:34Z sid_cypher: until then, why not write in parenscript for the "other side" and then use websockets/webrtc for IPC. 2015-11-20T23:33:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T23:34:00Z Shinmera: WASM is just JS bytecode really. 2015-11-20T23:34:22Z Shinmera: It's not even really assembly given that it has structure and no gotos. 2015-11-20T23:34:53Z Shinmera: As such it's not that great a target to adopt existing implementations for. :/ 2015-11-20T23:35:22Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-20T23:35:31Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:35:37Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: your facts are solid, but isn't it the platform of the near future? 2015-11-20T23:35:44Z Shinmera: God I hope not. 2015-11-20T23:35:59Z Bicyclidine: No jumps, really? 2015-11-20T23:36:20Z sid_cypher: we already have JVM, but browser don't use that for whatever reason, and the plugin story was horrible 2015-11-20T23:36:37Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:37:46Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:38:49Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-20T23:40:34Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-20T23:40:57Z wch is now known as heddwch 2015-11-20T23:41:37Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:43:34Z sid_cypher: i have no idea why we necessarily want to keep the "jump anywhere" possibility on a VM 2015-11-20T23:44:26Z nyef: Coroutines? 2015-11-20T23:44:43Z sid_cypher: it's not bare metal, where you cannot avoid having an instruction pointer without losing efficiency due to architecture 2015-11-20T23:45:22Z sid_cypher: nyef: thank you for input, i have no experience with those. googling. 2015-11-20T23:45:44Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-20T23:46:02Z mordocai: To be fair, i'd love to be able to write "native browser" lisp. I wouldn't want to be the one writing a lisp in wasm though. 2015-11-20T23:46:26Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-20T23:46:47Z Shinmera: Then there's the problem with content delivery. I doubt you really want to deliver a 50mb or whatever WASM file to your users just so they run some flashy effects. 2015-11-20T23:47:11Z Shinmera: So you constrain yourself to applications in which case you might as well use a native lisp. 2015-11-20T23:48:25Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: oh, the delivery is solved by caching some things that CDN gives you. jquery isn't downloaded on each page visit, either. 2015-11-20T23:48:39Z Shinmera: Sure but you still need the initial download 2015-11-20T23:48:49Z Shinmera: Waiting for 50mb to load on first visit is going to push away a loooooooooot of users. 2015-11-20T23:49:08Z Shinmera: Probably close to all of 'em. 2015-11-20T23:49:27Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: gotta take the same road as flash-using sites, then. 2015-11-20T23:49:40Z Shinmera: And those mostly died out for a good reason. 2015-11-20T23:49:41Z jasom: Shinmera: don't forget that wasm also doesn't let you treat compiled code as data 2015-11-20T23:49:53Z jasom: Shinmera: i.e. you can't generate wasm bytecode, put it on the heap, and call into it 2015-11-20T23:49:57Z Shinmera: jasom: Oh. Hooray. 2015-11-20T23:50:05Z Guest82891 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:50:20Z sid_cypher: jasom: whaaat? oh crap! is it certain? 2015-11-20T23:50:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:50:26Z jasom: sid_cypher: not certain yet 2015-11-20T23:50:40Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-20T23:50:51Z sid_cypher: jasom: good. wasm is WIP, gotta do something! :) 2015-11-20T23:51:02Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-20T23:51:10Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-20T23:52:06Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:02:29Z Guest82891 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-11-21T00:02:41Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:05:07Z lisse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T00:05:37Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:06:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T00:07:03Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-21T00:07:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:07:44Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T00:07:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:10:17Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T00:12:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T00:12:50Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-21T00:14:48Z sid_cypher: soo es6 harmony is finalized, it has tco and generators and can do coroutines, so that's good 2015-11-21T00:15:48Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-21T00:15:52Z fcbr` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:17:50Z sid_cypher: if wasm can use all that, then they can do their "no random jumps for security reasons" without losing much 2015-11-21T00:19:39Z sid_cypher: so a fast native browser lisp in wasm is not out of the question, at least not because of this. 2015-11-21T00:20:30Z HammyJammy quit (Quit: Vwums) 2015-11-21T00:26:13Z sid_cypher: as for the problem of the "initial 50Mb download" Shinmera mentioned, that thing can cache while the user is presented with a fallback version or something. 2015-11-21T00:31:33Z zch left #lisp 2015-11-21T00:32:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:32:51Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T00:33:50Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-21T00:35:15Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:36:28Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:36:50Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T00:36:52Z ebrasca quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-21T00:37:18Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T00:37:32Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:37:46Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca 2015-11-21T00:38:31Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-21T00:38:40Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:39:04Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-21T00:39:49Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:42:47Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:42:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:43:22Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:44:31Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: no) 2015-11-21T00:44:35Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:46:09Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:46:55Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T00:50:14Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T00:50:32Z drmeister: Hey folks, I just posted this: 2015-11-21T00:51:20Z drmeister: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10604873 2015-11-21T00:51:30Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-21T00:52:04Z drmeister: and this: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3tmxsg/clasp_04_joining_common_lisp_and_c/? 2015-11-21T00:52:14Z axe: 200x faster? 2015-11-21T00:52:39Z drmeister: Announcing: Clasp 0.4 – Joining Common Lisp and C++ 2015-11-21T00:54:00Z Xach: woo 2015-11-21T00:56:13Z axe: drmeister: I'd probably add some sample code to the github page showing code that is 200x faster. Also bit more detail on why the build will take 2 hrs as thats a bit of a turn off. And when the Windows version will be available! 2015-11-21T00:59:38Z drmeister: axe: Thanks. I now see a problem with linking to the tag - I can't edit the README.md file! 2015-11-21T01:02:29Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:02:38Z sid_cypher: that is amazing. 2015-11-21T01:03:15Z drmeister: #*#$# I can't edit the README.md file - darnit! 2015-11-21T01:03:45Z drmeister: Since I used the tag as the URL I can't make any changes to the repo that readers land at. 2015-11-21T01:05:26Z drmeister: What a mess. 2015-11-21T01:05:48Z drmeister: Don't use git tags as URLs 2015-11-21T01:06:23Z axe: delete and repost? 2015-11-21T01:06:31Z attila_lendvai: drmeister: I'm out of context, but if that helps then you can move a tag with git 2015-11-21T01:08:31Z drmeister: I can? That would be very helpful. 2015-11-21T01:10:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:10:47Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:12:14Z attila_lendvai: git tag -f -a ..., and then git pull --tags pulls the new tag for others without barking 2015-11-21T01:19:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:21:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:23:06Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:25:01Z ania123 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:27:35Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:28:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-21T01:28:45Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:32:46Z ebrasca is now known as ebrasca-afk 2015-11-21T01:33:45Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-21T01:35:39Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-21T01:36:01Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T01:36:31Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:40:16Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T01:42:19Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T01:43:21Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:44:02Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:44:12Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:44:19Z pyx quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T01:44:44Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:48:26Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:48:56Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:52:20Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:52:46Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T01:55:19Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:56:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-21T01:58:15Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T02:01:15Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:03:30Z Guest89587 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:04:10Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T02:08:26Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:08:27Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T02:08:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:08:34Z pyon quit (Quit: fix config) 2015-11-21T02:09:30Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:12:12Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:13:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T02:13:39Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:14:57Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:16:21Z ania123 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T02:17:26Z pjb` left #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:48Z j_king_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:49Z samebcha1e joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:49Z Robdgreat_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:50Z ferada_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:54Z yang_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:55Z pjb is now known as Guest79146 2015-11-21T02:18:56Z otwierac1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:18:57Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:19:00Z adhoc_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:19:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2015-11-21T02:19:01Z chu_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:19:03Z samebchase quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-21T02:19:03Z Xach quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-21T02:19:03Z z0d quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-21T02:19:03Z j_king quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-21T02:19:04Z MikeSeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:04Z Robdgreat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:05Z ferada quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:05Z otwieracz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:05Z adhoc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:05Z chu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:05Z yang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T02:19:06Z MikeSeth_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:19:07Z otwierac1 is now known as otwieracz 2015-11-21T02:19:14Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:19:14Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T02:19:14Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-21T02:20:30Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-21T04:36:55Z jasom: drmeister: you can move the tag 2015-11-21T04:37:14Z BitPuffin|osx: hmm 2015-11-21T04:37:53Z BitPuffin|osx: can anyone explain to me why when I disassemble my function it mov's a number that is twice as large as what I'm actually putting there in sbcl 2015-11-21T04:38:06Z BitPuffin|osx: (disassemble (lambda () (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (the fixnum (+ 8 2))) 2015-11-21T04:38:16Z BitPuffin|osx: MOV EDX, 20 2015-11-21T04:38:20Z BitPuffin|osx: why 20 and not 10? 2015-11-21T04:38:35Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: tagging 2015-11-21T04:39:05Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: you mean tagging that it is or is not boxed? 2015-11-21T04:39:12Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: yeah 2015-11-21T04:39:34Z BitPuffin|osx: ah okay so the actual number is shifted one step to the left 2015-11-21T04:40:17Z BitPuffin|osx: 00001010 becomes 00010100 or something 2015-11-21T04:40:18Z jasom: sbcl can do unboxed word-sized arithmetic, but it has to box it at function-call boundaries (unless the functions get inlined) 2015-11-21T04:40:28Z BitPuffin|osx: and I guess the 0 means not boxed 2015-11-21T04:40:48Z jasom: but fixnums are only 63 bits on a 64-bit target 2015-11-21T04:41:05Z jasom: some 32-bit targets used to have more than 1 tag bit, but I don't know if they do anymore 2015-11-21T04:41:40Z pjb: jasom: sbcl has variable length type tags. 2015-11-21T04:42:10Z jasom: pjb: right, I meant more than one bit on fixnums; I misspoke 2015-11-21T04:42:15Z BitPuffin|osx: does disassemble help me figure out if a function was inlined or not? 2015-11-21T04:42:38Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: yup, you won't see a function call if it was inlined 2015-11-21T04:42:52Z BitPuffin|osx: I see 2015-11-21T04:43:13Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: note that sbcl is very aggressive about inlining functions declared inline 2015-11-21T04:43:35Z BitPuffin|osx: but it inlines functions automatically right? 2015-11-21T04:43:55Z jasom: I'm not sure actually 2015-11-21T04:44:03Z BitPuffin|osx: would be weird otherwise I think 2015-11-21T04:44:26Z jasom: It's allowed by the spec to inline within a single file, but I don't know that it ever does without a declaration (maybe on very tiny functions?) 2015-11-21T04:44:47Z pjb: Inside a single compilation unit, it may inline at will. 2015-11-21T04:44:51Z BitPuffin|osx: also, are the optimizations in sbcl "optimistic"? ie will it perform optimizations that it thinks will hold true and then may have to throw away code because circumstances changed 2015-11-21T04:45:00Z pjb: Outside it may inline only if so declared. 2015-11-21T04:45:19Z jasom: pjb: I know, but does it ever inline without an inline declaration? 2015-11-21T04:45:29Z pjb: why not? 2015-11-21T04:45:43Z BitPuffin|osx: wow harsch, isn't inlining like one of the most key optimizations :P damn standard 2015-11-21T04:46:00Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: it's so you can redfine functions without breaking your program 2015-11-21T04:46:18Z pjb: jasom: nope. You can have both inline and notinline declarations. 2015-11-21T04:46:22Z jasom: also note that most C compilers do not inline across compilation units (though this is starting to change) 2015-11-21T04:46:38Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: well that should still be possible, it just has to store somewhere that it was inlined 2015-11-21T04:47:10Z BitPuffin|osx: and possibly recompile a bunch of things 2015-11-21T04:47:12Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: right, and then recompile the function in which it was inlined; so it needs to store the environment the file was compiled in too 2015-11-21T04:47:28Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: I think beach is working on something like that for his lisp compiler (cleavir) 2015-11-21T04:48:27Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah I mean I'm sure there are difficulties, I'm just saying it feels weird that the standard would explicitly not allow that 2015-11-21T04:48:30Z jasom: pjb: it always annoyed me that there is no way to explicitly opt into the default behavior for inlining; it's tristate with INLINE NOTINLINE and "I didn't declare anything" 2015-11-21T04:49:02Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: it doesn't disallow inlining per-se, it's just that you need to allow for function redefinition 2015-11-21T04:49:24Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: and it's a lot of legwork to get that working 2015-11-21T04:49:46Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-21T04:49:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-21T04:50:07Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: ah okay, it sounded like you (or whoever said it, too tired to check :P) was saying that standard said nope to inlining outside same file 2015-11-21T04:50:22Z BitPuffin|osx: but yeah I can see that there would be challenges for sure 2015-11-21T04:50:50Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: They don't forbid inlining, but it's clear they were thinking about inlining when they wrote it. 2015-11-21T04:51:17Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: the declaration that allows inlining across compilation units is called "INLINE" 2015-11-21T04:51:28Z BitPuffin|osx: gotcha 2015-11-21T04:51:39Z BitPuffin|osx: when you mark a function as inline you lose the ability to redefine it I presume 2015-11-21T04:52:31Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T04:52:52Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-21T04:53:34Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: No, but redefining it may not have the desired effect. 2015-11-21T04:53:49Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T04:54:08Z BitPuffin|osx: ah, okay so you can redefine it but it won't propagate necessarily if it's already been inlined 2015-11-21T04:54:17Z beach: Right. 2015-11-21T04:54:32Z BitPuffin|osx: I'm still interested to know about what I asked about optimistic optimizations 2015-11-21T04:54:47Z BitPuffin|osx: I was watching a thing about V8 2015-11-21T04:54:56Z BitPuffin|osx: and for some reason it got my lisp itch going again :P 2015-11-21T04:55:30Z beach: Great! 2015-11-21T04:56:03Z BitPuffin|osx: :] 2015-11-21T04:56:16Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah JITs are fun 2015-11-21T04:56:52Z beach: I know of no Common Lisp implementation that will recompile functions as a result of external circumstances changing. 2015-11-21T04:56:56Z beach: But it's a good idea. 2015-11-21T04:57:03Z BitPuffin|osx: usually it seems hard to get disassembly and inlining information but with sbcl it was surprisingly easy. Well any CL really since disassemble is a standard thing I think 2015-11-21T04:57:14Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah it's an interesting approach 2015-11-21T04:57:19Z beach: Call-site optimization is one of those things where you could win big. 2015-11-21T04:57:22Z BitPuffin|osx: since most of the time the optimism pays off 2015-11-21T04:58:35Z BitPuffin|osx: I was also wondering if sbcl compiles a function specialized for different passed in types sometimes but I don't know how it could considering how I can disassemble it 2015-11-21T04:59:15Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T04:59:18Z BitPuffin|osx: although, I suppose it could perform like a quick type check and then jump to specialized code or something 2015-11-21T04:59:29Z beach: It could have a single function starting with a test for the type and then a branch to two different versions. 2015-11-21T04:59:40Z BitPuffin|osx: :P 2015-11-21T04:59:59Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:00:27Z BitPuffin|osx: but that would probably still be worse than calling the "right" function at the call site, but maybe it could get around that by doing some kind of partial inlining or something? I dunno 2015-11-21T05:00:49Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:00:50Z beach: I have come up with a very general optimization on intermediate code that will do something like that, and I am planning to include it into SICL/Cleavir. 2015-11-21T05:00:57Z tmtwd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T05:01:10Z beach: Call-site optimization can become very tricky. 2015-11-21T05:01:22Z beach: You can't just recompile from source when the callee changes. 2015-11-21T05:01:45Z beach: Because the environment might have changed so that the generated code would be very different. 2015-11-21T05:01:50Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:02:36Z BitPuffin|osx: hm yeah that sort of goes back to the inlining thing 2015-11-21T05:02:38Z beach: Imagine, for instance, that a variable was lexical when the function was first compiled. Then you need to recompile because the callee changed. But then the variable is globally defined to be special. Recompiling from source would be a violation of the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-11-21T05:02:59Z BitPuffin|osx: ah wait you joined after that 2015-11-21T05:03:28Z beach: I don't understand what you mean. 2015-11-21T05:03:48Z tmtwd_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T05:04:01Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:04:11Z BitPuffin|osx: we were talking about how it's harder to inline across compilation units because then you have to store information about the function that was inlined so that you can recompile code that inlined a function when the function gets redefined 2015-11-21T05:04:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:04:32Z BitPuffin|osx: if you don't wanna break the basic guarantees 2015-11-21T05:04:42Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:05:25Z beach: Right. But the Common Lisp HyperSpec gives you the right to do that, provided that INLINE is declared. And you don't have to recompile when the function changes. 2015-11-21T05:05:45Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah that was mentioned as well 2015-11-21T05:05:58Z BitPuffin|osx: so if you say that it's inline you're not guaranteed that changes propagate once you redefine 2015-11-21T05:06:05Z beach: Right. 2015-11-21T05:06:17Z BitPuffin|osx: but if you still wanted to make a compiler that inlines and yet provides the same guarantees you'd have to store a bunch of information on the side 2015-11-21T05:06:23Z BitPuffin|osx: about who inlined what and stuff 2015-11-21T05:06:35Z beach: That part is easy. 2015-11-21T05:06:46Z beach: The hard part is deciding how to recompile. 2015-11-21T05:07:29Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:07:33Z beach: In Cleavir, you would probably store the AST since the AST has all of the information from the environment Incorporated into it. 2015-11-21T05:09:25Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah 2015-11-21T05:09:40Z BitPuffin|osx: Also I don't know much about your cleavir project 2015-11-21T05:09:43Z BitPuffin|osx: let me look it up 2015-11-21T05:09:57Z beach: minion: Please tell BitPuffin|osx about Cleavir! 2015-11-21T05:09:57Z minion: BitPuffin|osx: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future 2015-11-21T05:09:59Z BitPuffin|osx: ah wait is it clasp? 2015-11-21T05:10:03Z beach: minion: Please tell BitPuffin|osx about SICL. 2015-11-21T05:10:04Z minion: BitPuffin|osx: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2015-11-21T05:10:10Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: I told you beach was working on this :) 2015-11-21T05:10:27Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: yeah I remember :P 2015-11-21T05:10:29Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Cleavir is used by Clasp in the new compiler. 2015-11-21T05:10:55Z jasom: beach does all the hard thinking about this so I don't have to ;) 2015-11-21T05:11:08Z beach: jasom: Sorry, I didn't mean to steal the show from you. Please feel free to add your ideas. 2015-11-21T05:11:08Z jasom: I just read what he writes 2015-11-21T05:11:37Z jasom: beach: no, I'm actually serious about this; any time I think I have an original thought I find it buried somewhere in your writing about cleavir or sicl 2015-11-21T05:11:38Z beach: Aww! Now my face is read (as the Vietnamese say). 2015-11-21T05:11:59Z beach: jasom: Wow, thanks. 2015-11-21T05:12:11Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: oh you're making clasp? 2015-11-21T05:12:26Z jasom: I think you beat me to the whole "once we can recompile functions when dependencies change, we can inline generic function dispatch and just recompile all the call points when a new defmethod occurs 2015-11-21T05:12:31Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: no, that would be drmeister 2015-11-21T05:12:53Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T05:13:08Z BitPuffin|osx: it sounds like beach is doing things that I was hoping to see :D 2015-11-21T05:13:22Z beach: jasom: It is not important who got there first. :) But it's a great idea though. 2015-11-21T05:13:24Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:13:44Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:13:52Z BitPuffin|osx: but yeah I know that sbcl can be quite fast and stuff but you have to massage it a lot and seems to involve making functions not generic anymore etc 2015-11-21T05:13:54Z jasom: beach: I think I asked about why sbcl doesn't do that once and got the answer "because it's hard" 2015-11-21T05:14:05Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:14:16Z beach: It is non-trivial, yes. But it can be done. :) 2015-11-21T05:14:26Z drmeister: beach: It's demonstrably NOT futile - Clasp is using and depending on Cleavir. 2015-11-21T05:14:30Z beach: So..... Let's do it. 2015-11-21T05:14:39Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: the good news is that it has a great profiler, and it's usually a very tiny amount of code that you spend the majority of your time in, so you only need to hand-massage the hot-spots 2015-11-21T05:14:57Z BitPuffin|osx: if js can do it so can lisp :] 2015-11-21T05:15:05Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:15:45Z beach: drmeister: I am mostly catering to the usual #lisp crowd: "pointless", "futile", "can't be done", "too much work", "nobody will use it", etc, etc. 2015-11-21T05:16:05Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: well the two major js implementations are from-the-ground-up JITs with possibly more developer-hours of effort in each of them than has been spent on lisp compilers in the past 15 years. 2015-11-21T05:16:08Z BitPuffin|osx: jasom: yeah I don't mean to say that sbcl ain't good :) 2015-11-21T05:16:39Z drmeister: beach: Ah - the reasonable ones. Well - as they say - progress is achieved by unreasonable people. 2015-11-21T05:16:50Z jasom: yup 2015-11-21T05:16:50Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:16:52Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: SBCL is excellent! But it was written a long time ago, and I am betting we can do better now. 2015-11-21T05:17:10Z drmeister: Some of my best friends are reasonable people. :-) 2015-11-21T05:17:16Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: I hope that with cleavir that there will be some way to say "hey man this is my final code now, it does not use eval and won't change anymore, now please optimize as much as you want and give me a binary" :) 2015-11-21T05:17:17Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-21T05:17:21Z beach: drmeister: Sorry to hear that! :) 2015-11-21T05:17:38Z jasom: drmeister: I have great respect for anyone who comes even close to releasing a somewhat-kind-of-working implementation of common lisp 2015-11-21T05:17:45Z BitPuffin|osx: drmeister: I saw that quote in a video just a few hours ago o_O 2015-11-21T05:17:47Z jasom: so like where clasp was a year ago or so 2015-11-21T05:17:56Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Dream on! 2015-11-21T05:18:18Z drmeister: jasom: Did you see - we released Clasp 0.4.0 a few hours ago. 2015-11-21T05:18:22Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: hehe 2015-11-21T05:18:22Z jasom: yup 2015-11-21T05:18:46Z jasom: drmeister: I also saw your comment about how you're going to do auto-refactoring now that it's fast enough. very cool 2015-11-21T05:19:02Z drmeister: It kind of sank like a rock in hacker news - good think I'm not trying to monetize it. 2015-11-21T05:19:02Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:19:04Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-21T05:19:51Z drmeister: That guy kind of got my goat. I got so angry I went and deleted a whole bunch of useless files in Clasp. It took me all of an hour. 2015-11-21T05:20:06Z jasom: oh and the top comment not by you starts with "I hate to be negative, but..." 100% typical HN response 2015-11-21T05:20:29Z drmeister deleted a few useful files at the same time - but with the help of SAL9000 we recovered. 2015-11-21T05:20:54Z jasom: Friday afternoons are tough to get on front-page of HN 2015-11-21T05:21:06Z Bike: it was surprising but kinda neat when i started seeing clasp outside of this channel, cos i don't hang around programmy places all that much 2015-11-21T05:21:09Z BitPuffin|osx: :P 2015-11-21T05:21:09Z Bike: makin' an impact 2015-11-21T05:21:32Z BitPuffin|osx: clasp was initially a fork of ecl wasn't it? 2015-11-21T05:22:45Z drmeister: BitPuffin|osx: Sort of - I used the Common Lisp source of ECL but wrote new C++ code and translated some of the C code. Clasp doesn't use any of the ECL interpreter or compiler. 2015-11-21T05:23:10Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:24:06Z BitPuffin|osx: ah I see 2015-11-21T05:24:13Z BitPuffin|osx: so not much of it left then maybe 2015-11-21T05:24:58Z beach: A lot of the Common Lisp code is left. 2015-11-21T05:25:07Z BitPuffin|osx: oh yeah by the way, I was curious about lists, does sbcl ever optimize them to use contiguous memory like a contiguous array of ints or do you have to use some other structure 2015-11-21T05:25:22Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:25:28Z Bike: i don't think it does, even for constant data 2015-11-21T05:25:29Z beach: The latter. 2015-11-21T05:25:57Z jasom: BitPuffin|osx: are you talking about cdrcoding? 2015-11-21T05:26:24Z BitPuffin|osx: cdrcoding? 2015-11-21T05:26:33Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDR_coding 2015-11-21T05:28:01Z BitPuffin|osx: hmm maybe I dunno, I wasn't talking about that specifically since I didn't know about it 2015-11-21T05:28:26Z beach: But your description was essentially the same as CDR coding. 2015-11-21T05:28:28Z BitPuffin|osx: but I was more concerned about iterations and cache friendly memory access and stuff but it seems like the solution is don't use a list 2015-11-21T05:28:47Z Bike: more or less. 2015-11-21T05:28:58Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah probably 2015-11-21T05:29:02Z Bike: lists are optimized for cases of throwing things on the head of the list and stuff. 2015-11-21T05:29:11Z Bike: it's hard to have a data structure be both that and an array. 2015-11-21T05:29:57Z beach: I think modern Common Lisp programs use lists only when justified. Otherwise, more adapted data structures are used. I therefore think that CDR coding and similar ideas would have limited impact on the performance of an idiomatic modern Common Lisp program. 2015-11-21T05:30:03Z BitPuffin|osx: you can just use a growing array backwards :P but then at any point if the list branches you'd have to convert 2015-11-21T05:30:53Z beach: It is easy to lose track of things like that and to tell yourself that this or that operation is very common, when in fact it is not. 2015-11-21T05:30:58Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:31:01Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:31:15Z BitPuffin|osx: what I mean is that in C++ for example you're probably gonna have much better performance pushing things at the start of a "list" by using a vector and pushing back elements and treating last element as first 2015-11-21T05:31:29Z BitPuffin|osx: but the cdr can also be shared by many lists 2015-11-21T05:31:33Z Bike: better performance for some things, yes. 2015-11-21T05:31:34Z BitPuffin|osx: so if that happens you can't do that 2015-11-21T05:32:43Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: yeah I don't think I know what idiomatic CL code is, I just have a perception of lisps in general being like yeah use lists \o/ 2015-11-21T05:32:52Z BitPuffin|osx: maybe racket does cdr_coding 2015-11-21T05:33:04Z Bike: probably not 2015-11-21T05:33:06Z BitPuffin|osx: I feel like they are not violently opposed to trying list before using the vector 2015-11-21T05:33:07Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Modern Common Lisp uses CLOS a lot. 2015-11-21T05:33:15Z Bike: the reasons we already said apply about as well to racket 2015-11-21T05:33:32Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah of course, it's still the same problems in racket 2015-11-21T05:34:31Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: with CLOS (or something else in standard CL) can I get a contiguous buffer of some data structure / object? and I don't mean a contigous array of pointers 2015-11-21T05:35:09Z Bike: arrays are sometimes the data rather than pointers, depending on the upgraded type. 2015-11-21T05:35:12Z BitPuffin|osx: maybe not with CLOS since there's inheritance and polymorphism 2015-11-21T05:35:23Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Listen to Bike! :) 2015-11-21T05:35:26Z Bike: arrays of CLOS objects are arrays of pointers in every implementation i know of 2015-11-21T05:35:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T05:35:49Z BitPuffin|osx: though so, what would you use to get arrays of the data? 2015-11-21T05:36:00Z Bike: an array with an :element-type 2015-11-21T05:36:15Z BitPuffin|osx: could that be any user defined type? 2015-11-21T05:36:21Z BitPuffin|osx: like a struct? 2015-11-21T05:36:24Z beach: No. 2015-11-21T05:36:30Z BitPuffin|osx: aw 2015-11-21T05:36:36Z Bike: Well... I'm not sure about structs. 2015-11-21T05:36:41Z Bike: but probably not, most of the time. 2015-11-21T05:36:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:36:47Z BitPuffin|osx: :( 2015-11-21T05:37:44Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: If you did that, you would either have to have immutable structs, or you would have a serious problem with EQ/EQL. 2015-11-21T05:38:23Z BitPuffin|osx: hmm? you mean because when you define a struct you just say the element names and not the type? 2015-11-21T05:38:28Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: This is the kind of programming that is used in C and C++ a lot, which has prompted me to say "It is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular". 2015-11-21T05:38:56Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Because when you take such a struct out of the array, it is no longer EQ to the original. 2015-11-21T05:39:07Z beach: And this is a serious problem in Common Lisp. 2015-11-21T05:39:23Z BitPuffin|osx: ahh yeah of course 2015-11-21T05:39:37Z BitPuffin|osx: it would almost have to be its own thing 2015-11-21T05:39:40Z BitPuffin|osx: like a value type 2015-11-21T05:39:48Z BitPuffin|osx: or something 2015-11-21T05:39:53Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah it is a problem 2015-11-21T05:40:07Z beach: This kind of programming is what turns a simple pointer assignment into a call to a copy constructor in C++, and thereby slowing down your code by a factor 100. 2015-11-21T05:40:08Z Bike: it would be kind of interesting to have structs that are POD, so to speak, but it probably wouldn't be worth all the semantic complication. 2015-11-21T05:40:53Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: But of course, C++ programmers don't realize that, and they still think their programs is as fast as it would be in any language. 2015-11-21T05:41:37Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: welllllll, I mean a lot of times if that contiguous memory is your main storage location for that data you'd probably just take a reference to the element 2015-11-21T05:41:51Z BitPuffin|osx: so it's a little strawman'y 2015-11-21T05:41:59Z dfcat quit (Quit: ceeya) 2015-11-21T05:42:01Z BitPuffin|osx: but yeah some C++ programmers can neglect it 2015-11-21T05:43:23Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:44:30Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: I can be strawman'y about C++ here in #lisp if I want. :) 2015-11-21T05:45:45Z BitPuffin|osx: you can be it anywhere :P 2015-11-21T05:46:58Z BitPuffin|osx: all I'm saying is that it's a very important tool to have these days. Not that it can't be misused :) 2015-11-21T05:46:58Z beach: Anyway, what I am saying is that the kind of optimization that consists of storing instances rather than pointers in arrays and such is almost impossible to obtain in Common Lisp if you want to preserve Common Lisp semantics. 2015-11-21T05:47:37Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah 2015-11-21T05:47:45Z BitPuffin|osx: hm 2015-11-21T05:47:46Z beach: So if you want to think about optimizing Common Lisp programs, you are better off thinking about how to optimize generic dispatch and other things that are common in modern Common Lisp code. 2015-11-21T05:49:26Z BitPuffin|osx: maybe, but if you're making say a game it can be super important to be able to iterate over a large contiguous array of data and perform operations on it which can work in harmony with the cache 2015-11-21T05:49:56Z BitPuffin|osx: but I'm sure you could invent a solution for that in CL 2015-11-21T05:50:07Z BitPuffin|osx: for those few cases where that's a big win 2015-11-21T05:50:17Z BitPuffin|osx: or even call out to C or something 2015-11-21T05:50:51Z beach: That would probably be better, yes. 2015-11-21T05:51:01Z Bike: i mean, you have contiguous memory locations if you need them, with specialized arrays. worst case scenario you just write a serializer/deserializer for objects to that memory. 2015-11-21T05:51:08Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:51:10Z Bike: well, not worst case. kind-of-annoying case. 2015-11-21T05:51:35Z Bike: eg, you want to store a bunch of 4-vectors, just allocate 4*length of doubles and do the obvious 2015-11-21T05:51:43Z Bike: probably less annoying than CFFI 2015-11-21T05:51:49Z BitPuffin|osx: right, yeah I mean you could simulate any POD with an array of integers and just jump forward the size of each element 2015-11-21T05:51:55Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:52:05Z BitPuffin|osx: well, not if the POD contains a pointer maybe 2015-11-21T05:52:20Z BitPuffin|osx: but in that case you've probably already lost your cache wins 2015-11-21T05:54:56Z BitPuffin|osx: well, at least if you're gonna dereference it :P 2015-11-21T05:55:29Z Bike: anyway, i don't think we think about it much because we don't do so much stuff where you actually need that diminishing-returns speed. 2015-11-21T05:56:36Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T05:56:36Z BitPuffin|osx: no that's true there isn't a whole lot CL in the games industry 2015-11-21T05:56:50Z BitPuffin|osx: I was mainly thinking about toying with CL for some game prototying or whatever 2015-11-21T05:57:04Z Bike: there's people who do lisp games, but even then they're not running DooM on a 386, you know? 2015-11-21T05:57:08Z Bike: writing 2015-11-21T05:57:31Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah I know there are people, and code, like CLinch and stuff 2015-11-21T05:57:35Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T05:57:36Z Bike: there's an FPS engine in CL somewhere, i don't think the performance sucked too bad 2015-11-21T05:57:40Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-21T05:57:51Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: You might want to think about real-time concurrent garbage collection if you are going to do interactive games in Common Lisp. 2015-11-21T05:57:55Z Bike: probably would if you spawned eight thousand lsystem trees or somethin 2015-11-21T05:58:24Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: yeah that's also a concern 2015-11-21T05:59:08Z BitPuffin|osx: I didn't ask too much about it since it's a big can of stuff and a big topic 2015-11-21T05:59:12Z BitPuffin|osx: but does sbcl do any of it? 2015-11-21T05:59:23Z BitPuffin|osx: I was assuming it had something like it sorted since it supports threads and stuff 2015-11-21T05:59:32Z Bike: Real time GC? It does not. 2015-11-21T05:59:34Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Existing Common Lisp implementations were written before there were good such GC algorithms around. There has been a lot of progress in the past few years. 2015-11-21T05:59:49Z BitPuffin|osx: oh so there's no generational CL gc? 2015-11-21T06:00:02Z beach: Generational is not the same as real-time. 2015-11-21T06:00:12Z Bike: sbcl's gc is generational, but it's not real time. also not concurrent. 2015-11-21T06:00:23Z Bike: sbcl's gc locks everything while it works, i think. 2015-11-21T06:00:46Z Bike: i don't know how ccl's or anybody else's work, but i don't think any of them are real time and i doubt any are concurrent. 2015-11-21T06:00:47Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah I realtime is very important as well, but generational can at least make the pause a little bit less bareable 2015-11-21T06:01:22Z areinisch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:01:35Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: I thought you were talking about interactive games. Then you can have no pauses. 2015-11-21T06:02:28Z Bike: psh, that's what loading screens are for! 2015-11-21T06:02:49Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: no I am 2015-11-21T06:03:04Z BitPuffin|osx: I mean there's always a pause of some kind even with realtime gc 2015-11-21T06:03:14Z BitPuffin|osx: or even with no gc 2015-11-21T06:03:15Z beach: No. 2015-11-21T06:03:29Z BitPuffin|osx: call new or delete and you'll block a little 2015-11-21T06:03:32Z beach: Real-time GC means that you can put a bound on the time it takes. 2015-11-21T06:03:40Z BitPuffin|osx: yeah 2015-11-21T06:04:22Z BitPuffin|osx: I just mean it's still pausing, just that it is pausing for how long you allowed it to 2015-11-21T06:04:24Z beach: BitPuffin|osx: Let me put it this way: if you are considering using Common Lisp for games, then storing structs rather than pointers in arrays is going to be an order of magnitude less important than making sure your Common Lisp implementation has near-real-time and concurrent GC. 2015-11-21T06:04:36Z beach: That's what real-time means. 2015-11-21T06:04:55Z beach: And I know of no existing Common Lisp implementation that does that. 2015-11-21T06:05:10Z BitPuffin|osx: beach: yeah I agree, though I think they are both important in different situations 2015-11-21T06:05:44Z BitPuffin|osx: but the GC thing will be a problem way more ofter than the contiguous memory thing 2015-11-21T06:05:53Z beach is beginning to remember why he is uninterested in the problems of the gaming industry. 2015-11-21T06:06:24Z Bike: aw, but realtime gc is so cool. 2015-11-21T06:07:15Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:08:50Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:09:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:09:57Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T06:09:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:12:02Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:13:09Z beach: That is very true. 2015-11-21T06:14:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:15:10Z jasom: beach: that's my dream project; to implement something like metronome in an existing common lisp 2015-11-21T06:15:11Z beach: The plan for SICL is to have a per-thread GC that is bounded in time aside from scanning the stack, and a concurrent global GC running in one ore more separate threads. 2015-11-21T06:16:09Z jasom: I would start just by making an incremental gc 2015-11-21T06:16:13Z beach: jasom: What is "metronome"? 2015-11-21T06:16:34Z jasom: beach: it's one example of an implementation of a fixed-work per unit time gc 2015-11-21T06:16:49Z beach: I see. 2015-11-21T06:16:52Z jasom: I think from IBM on the JVM 2015-11-21T06:17:42Z beach: Found the site. Thanks. 2015-11-21T06:18:53Z jasom: my thought is that if you use something like mprotect you don't need to modify the mutator; you can put all the fixup code in the sigsegv handler 2015-11-21T06:20:05Z jasom: it's a huge performance hit, of course, and probably not a good idea for a concurrent gc, but for a simple bounded-work gc it seems tractible to me 2015-11-21T06:20:10Z jasom: come back in 4 years 2015-11-21T06:20:46Z beach: GC is very hard. 2015-11-21T06:20:54Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-21T06:21:12Z beach: It is impossible to know a priory what choices are good. 2015-11-21T06:21:23Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:21:31Z beach: So I won't say "oh, that's a good idea" because I simply don't know. 2015-11-21T06:23:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:26:41Z araujo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:27:50Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T06:42:55Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T06:47:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:49:34Z RazWelle1: I might be thinking about this wrong but when loading quicklisp libraries in a fresh lisp session, I need to specify some commands for eval only and let the rest compile? Is there a way to specify an expression or set of expressions to be eval only during C-c C-k? 2015-11-21T06:50:07Z beach: jasom: Anyway, let me know if you feel like taking a chunk of SICL/Cleavir. I am willing to discuss such possibilities. 2015-11-21T06:51:28Z Bike: RazWelle1: eval-when. 2015-11-21T06:51:36Z Bike: i think. i'm not totally sure what you're asking. 2015-11-21T06:52:38Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-21T06:53:29Z RazWelle1: Bike: I'm following the "Lisp for the Web" tutorial, and I'm using a series of QL loads, like (load "...setup.lisp") (ql:quickload :library-name) (ql:quickload :library-2-name) and (defpackage :packagename (:use :blah :blah2 :blah3) one or all of which I'm only supposed to eval (supposedly) 2015-11-21T06:53:59Z RazWelle1: But I like to push the entire file from buffer to repl when updating as well as when starting a new session 2015-11-21T06:54:00Z Bike: well, you should probably use an asdf system. 2015-11-21T06:54:07Z RazWelle1: asdf? 2015-11-21T06:54:24Z RazWelle1: looking 2015-11-21T06:54:28Z Bike: another system definition facility. lets you define dependencies and such. quickload is based on top of it. 2015-11-21T06:55:18Z RazWelle1: Bike: ooh, I thought I could just use quickload and be done with it? I need to reach down into asdf as well? 2015-11-21T06:55:45Z Bike: you could, but what you're describing is what asdf is for, so why not move on from working ad hoc. 2015-11-21T06:57:36Z RazWelle1: Bike: ahh ok, and then I don't have to worry about compile vs eval when pushing a buffer to repl? 2015-11-21T06:58:02Z Bike: something like that. 2015-11-21T06:58:58Z RazWelle1: Alright ty, I'll give it a look- is there a tutorial or some sort of doc where I can look up handling library references across lisp sessions? 2015-11-21T07:01:12Z beach: RazWelle1: You would write an ASDF system definition containing a :DEPENDS-ON option. 2015-11-21T07:01:28Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T07:01:44Z beach: RazWelle1: When you compile your system, the libraries that it depends on will automatically be compiled first. 2015-11-21T07:01:45Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T07:02:24Z beach: ... compiled and loaded. 2015-11-21T07:02:32Z beach: ... into the new session. 2015-11-21T07:03:18Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:04:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:06:09Z RazWelle1: beach: I think I found a related stackoverflow to my problem http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22000468/why-does-using-defpackage-result-in-a-name-conflict 2015-11-21T07:07:08Z beach: RazWelle1: You don't write code that way. 2015-11-21T07:07:23Z beach: RazWelle1: You don't use LOAD and USE-PACKAGE. 2015-11-21T07:07:37Z beach: You write a package definition with the :USE option. 2015-11-21T07:07:41Z RazWelle1: ohhhh 2015-11-21T07:08:06Z beach: I mean, you CAN write that way of course, but then you had better know what you are doing. 2015-11-21T07:08:32Z RazWelle1: Yeahhh I have no clue what I'm doing so I'd like to learn the "right" way =P 2015-11-21T07:10:26Z beach: RazWelle1: More and more, I :USE only the COMMON-LISP package, and I stick explicit package markers when needed, like (euler-util:divisible-by i 3). 2015-11-21T07:11:12Z beach: RazWelle1: But you can :USE both the COMMON-LISP package and other packages in your DEFPACKAGE form. In this case EULER-UTIL. 2015-11-21T07:12:18Z RazWelle1: so I removed the load and ql:quickload and left only the defpackage 2015-11-21T07:12:31Z beach: RazWelle1: Forget about quickload. 2015-11-21T07:12:44Z beach: RazWelle1: That only transfers code from the QL site to yours. 2015-11-21T07:12:53Z beach: Once that is done the first time, you can forget about it. 2015-11-21T07:13:04Z beach: The rest is just ASDF and DEFPACKAGE. 2015-11-21T07:13:35Z RazWelle1: Oh I see, so I don't need to keep calling quickload 2015-11-21T07:13:40Z beach: Right. 2015-11-21T07:14:50Z RazWelle1: So I use asdf and defpackage to load packages that quicklisp has loaded in a previous session? 2015-11-21T07:15:13Z beach: OK, let's get our terminology straight... 2015-11-21T07:15:32Z beach: ASDF defines SYSTEMs and Quicklisp downloads such systems. 2015-11-21T07:15:43Z beach: A PACKAGE is a namespace. 2015-11-21T07:15:45Z RazWelle1: (thanks for being patient) 2015-11-21T07:15:55Z beach: Patience is my middle name. 2015-11-21T07:16:03Z beach: [just kidding] 2015-11-21T07:16:07Z RazWelle1: =P 2015-11-21T07:16:27Z beach: When you write your software, it will typically be defined as a single ASDF system. 2015-11-21T07:16:54Z beach: If it is a simple program, it will also have a single package, but if it is more complicated it can have more than one. 2015-11-21T07:18:09Z beach: So you write a file called my-program.asd in which you put (in-package #:asdf-user) and then (defsystem my-program :depends-on (:split-sequence :mcclim :blabla) :components ((:file ....))) 2015-11-21T07:18:44Z beach: One of the :file components will be (:file "packages") or (:file "package"). 2015-11-21T07:19:36Z beach: Then you create a file named packages.lisp or package.lisp in which you write (in-package #:common-lisp-user) and then (defpackage #:my-program-package (:use #:common-lisp) (:export ...)) 2015-11-21T07:20:46Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:21:32Z beach: Whenever you start a new Common Lisp session, you can just say (asdf:load-system :my-program) and the libraries split-sequence, mcclim, blabla will be loaded first. 2015-11-21T07:22:57Z RazWelle1: nice :o 2015-11-21T07:23:06Z beach: Here is a simple one you can look at: https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime 2015-11-21T07:24:10Z beach: It has a single .asd file, a single packages.lisp file and a single file for the main code of the system. 2015-11-21T07:25:11Z RazWelle1: This is a really clean example, thanks 2015-11-21T07:25:21Z beach: The .asd file illustrates dependencies on libraries that have been downloaded by Quicklisp. 2015-11-21T07:25:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:26:11Z Shinmera: RazWelle1: Also see http://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267 2015-11-21T07:26:37Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp 2015-11-21T07:27:24Z beach: Hello Shinmera. 2015-11-21T07:27:31Z beach: Fully recovered? 2015-11-21T07:27:31Z RazWelle1: Ooh that looks good too, thanks to you both 2015-11-21T07:29:31Z beach: RazWelle1: Sure. I think of it as an investment. Some day I will ask you to return the favor by writing Common Lisp software that is usable by the community. :) 2015-11-21T07:29:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T07:30:13Z shka: beach: i have a question 2015-11-21T07:30:19Z shka: not exactly cl related 2015-11-21T07:30:46Z shka: i would want to have version controlled hash-table 2015-11-21T07:31:04Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:31:19Z shka: my impression is that the way to go here, is to store version as part of hash 2015-11-21T07:31:25Z shka: and implement hash-table as hamt 2015-11-21T07:31:48Z shka: so first part of the hash would designate element 2015-11-21T07:31:58Z shka: second part woud designate version of that element 2015-11-21T07:32:05Z shka: how does that sound? 2015-11-21T07:34:00Z RazWelle1: beach: X) 2015-11-21T07:35:22Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T07:35:30Z adam789654123 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-11-21T07:36:10Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T07:41:06Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:43:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:44:55Z nopcall joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:44:57Z nopcall quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-21T07:48:43Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:50:23Z nopcall joined #lisp 2015-11-21T07:53:01Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T07:54:48Z beach: shka: Do you want to preserve every version of the table, i.e., do you want every operation to create a new version? 2015-11-21T07:55:07Z beach: shka: Or do you have explicit check points to create a new version? 2015-11-21T07:57:40Z shka: well, if i implement this as hamt, i can have persistant behavior without much effort 2015-11-21T07:57:48Z shka: but it is not hard requirement 2015-11-21T07:58:11Z shka: what i need is to preserve each version of record in the table 2015-11-21T07:59:04Z shka: beach: so basicly i don't want to version control whole table, just every element in it 2015-11-21T07:59:12Z beach: I see. 2015-11-21T07:59:17Z shka: hopefully that was the question 2015-11-21T07:59:21Z beach: So it has nothing to do with hash tables. 2015-11-21T07:59:37Z shka: well, not directly 2015-11-21T07:59:45Z shka: it just seemed like a good idea 2015-11-21T07:59:58Z hugo_dc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T07:59:58Z shka: i will need hash to identify each record 2015-11-21T08:00:09Z shka: so why not use hash for version as well 2015-11-21T08:01:04Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-21T08:02:06Z ozihcs quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-21T08:05:07Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:05:31Z shka: beach: i need to go now 2015-11-21T08:05:33Z shka: take care 2015-11-21T08:06:53Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:06:53Z beach: You too. 2015-11-21T08:07:15Z Bahman_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:08:23Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:10:09Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:10:37Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-21T08:10:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:10:44Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T08:10:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:15:31Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:16:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:20:06Z arnsholt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:20:34Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:20:35Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:20:56Z Mandus joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:22:05Z ski joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:22:12Z hyoyoung joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:22:36Z Fullma quit (Quit: Fullma) 2015-11-21T08:23:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:24:41Z arnsholt_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:24:50Z hyoyoung_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:37:03Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-21T08:37:23Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:41:10Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:44:47Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T08:45:23Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:45:40Z araujo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T08:46:50Z fiveop joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:47:22Z fiveop quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T08:48:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:49:26Z fiveop joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:50:07Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:50:12Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-21T08:55:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:56:16Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T08:58:15Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T08:59:16Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T09:00:03Z meiji11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T09:06:19Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:06:21Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:06:40Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:10:00Z nopcall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T09:10:55Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:14:15Z fcbr` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T09:20:37Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2015-11-21T09:21:41Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T09:22:53Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-21T09:22:59Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T09:24:11Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:25:36Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:26:16Z muyinliu: How to use defmacro to declare 100 constants with symbol value list like (list (list constant1 1) (list constant2 2) ...) ? 2015-11-21T09:27:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:28:10Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:29:22Z fiveop: You write a macro that loops from 1 to 100 and construct the list. The more complicated part is probably getting the symbols. For that look at INTERN and you could use FORMAT to create the argument for INTERN. 2015-11-21T09:31:02Z beach: It sounds like the wrong thing to do though. 2015-11-21T09:31:11Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-21T09:31:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T09:32:33Z Shinmera: Sounds like a case for a table instead. 2015-11-21T09:33:19Z beach: Hard to say. But whenever we get questions like that, the inevitable "what is it that you REALLY want to do" question is not far away. 2015-11-21T09:33:21Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:37:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:37:37Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T09:37:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:37:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:41:52Z Bike: i like to imagine that they're under ancient geas to do things in bizarre ways. 2015-11-21T09:42:37Z beach: Entirely possible. 2015-11-21T09:43:17Z LilSusieCrabCake joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:46:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T09:47:17Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:49:36Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-21T09:59:19Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:00:11Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:01:10Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T10:01:30Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:04:57Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:05:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:11:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:11:25Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T10:11:25Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:15:15Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-21T10:16:06Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:24:07Z beach: Shinmera: I am trying to follow your example of submitting many small libraries. I will try more frequently to extract and generalize stuff that I am already sitting on, but that is part of a bigger chunk at the moment. 2015-11-21T10:24:49Z Shinmera: Well recently I've degraded back to few gigantic libraries, but sure! 2015-11-21T10:25:19Z Shinmera: More libraries is almost always better. 2015-11-21T10:25:46Z beach: Yes, and especially if it is possible to generalize them a bit in the process. 2015-11-21T10:26:20Z Shinmera: Reach for that Quicklisp project count fame ;) 2015-11-21T10:26:50Z beach: I am afraid I am not up to that. You can keep the medal. 2015-11-21T10:27:19Z Shinmera: So what are you going to focus working on in the near future? 2015-11-21T10:28:17Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:28:22Z beach: SICL is still the main focus. But as a side gig, I am extracting a library of trees from Second Climacs. Next I will extract the buffer implementation from it. Finally, I am going to stick a McCLIM interface on it. 2015-11-21T10:28:28Z beach: On Second Climacs. 2015-11-21T10:28:37Z Shinmera: Exciting! 2015-11-21T10:28:48Z beach: ... so that I don't have to wait for presentation types in CLIM3/CLIMatis. 2015-11-21T10:29:00Z beach: I think I have a good buffer representation this time around. 2015-11-21T10:29:29Z beach: So it is worth extracting so that it could be used in other editors. Why not in (first) Climacs, Goatee, and Hemlock. 2015-11-21T10:30:04Z Shinmera: That reminds me, I should get back to working on my library for grouping stacks. 2015-11-21T10:30:15Z muyinliu quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-21T10:30:17Z Shinmera: Gonna need that for Parasol sooner or later anyhow. 2015-11-21T10:30:24Z beach: What does the library do? 2015-11-21T10:30:40Z beach: ... aside from "grouping stacks". 2015-11-21T10:31:18Z Shinmera: My specific use-case is the efficient implementation of a history. It works by grouping together items in the back of the stack to bigger and bigger chunks that represent the whole. 2015-11-21T10:31:39Z Shinmera: This should allow me to reduce drawing time to a few, large buffers while still making undo/redo not that big of a deal. 2015-11-21T10:32:15Z beach: Sounds great. 2015-11-21T10:32:38Z Shinmera: The idea isn't mine-- some good person from here suggested it to me initially back when I was working on the first version of Parasol :) 2015-11-21T10:32:49Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-21T10:32:53Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:32:55Z Shinmera: Unfortunately I'm bad at names and forgot who it was :( 2015-11-21T10:33:09Z beach: Check the logs. 2015-11-21T10:33:25Z Shinmera: I don't remember around what time it was either. It was quite some time ago. 2015-11-21T10:33:32Z beach: Use grep. 2015-11-21T10:35:54Z Shinmera: Gonna take a good while still because I don't remember the keywords being said in the conversation. 2015-11-21T10:38:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:38:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:38:51Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T10:38:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:38:59Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:39:20Z namespace joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:40:25Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:42:18Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:44:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:44:22Z arnsholt_ is now known as arnsholt 2015-11-21T10:45:51Z sid_cypher: Good [time of the day], #lisp ! Lots of stuff being discussed today. The Metronome GC looks way impressive, do want. *envy* 2015-11-21T10:49:30Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-21T10:51:19Z beach: Make it happen! 2015-11-21T10:52:13Z sid_cypher: beach: i'm working on web stuff ATM, specifically braculon, but yeah, someday for sure! 2015-11-21T10:52:23Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T10:56:28Z beach: sid_cypher: I know nothing about web stuff, so I didn't understand the README very much. How does it relate to something like Hunchentoot? 2015-11-21T10:57:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:00:24Z sid_cypher: beach: Hunchentoot is a backend webserver for Clack, and braculon uses Clack "frontend" 2015-11-21T11:00:31Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:01:16Z beach: Thanks. 2015-11-21T11:03:34Z sid_cypher: beach: The first time I did a website in Lisp, I used Hunchentoot directly, producing an ugly mess in the end. 2015-11-21T11:04:19Z sid_cypher: Clack abstracts away the webserver details, so you can switch out your backend webserver in a second. 2015-11-21T11:05:08Z beach: I think I understand. 2015-11-21T11:08:49Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:10:15Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T11:12:51Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:13:28Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:13:45Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:13:51Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:14:21Z ozihcs quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T11:16:43Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T11:22:32Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:23:54Z Zimoo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:29:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:33:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:33:56Z Zimoo left #lisp 2015-11-21T11:34:00Z Bahman_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:36:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:36:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T11:36:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:36:30Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:37:57Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:39:30Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:40:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T11:40:09Z LilSusieCrabCake quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T11:44:38Z fiveop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T11:48:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:52:32Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-11-21T11:53:39Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-21T11:57:26Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:00:36Z beach listens to "Proletaryat". Maybe some Polish people here know about them. 2015-11-21T12:00:36Z ozihcs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T12:01:40Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:02:13Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:08:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:16:03Z fcbr joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:16:50Z chishiki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T12:19:56Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:23:03Z kvltar joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:23:19Z kvltar quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T12:29:02Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:30:24Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T12:30:57Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T12:31:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:31:26Z jilingju quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T12:34:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T12:37:15Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T12:38:54Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:39:43Z jilingju joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:40:56Z oceanpollen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T12:41:09Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:41:45Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:42:04Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T12:43:40Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:48:39Z dsp_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:50:53Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T12:51:15Z yang_ is now known as yang 2015-11-21T12:52:38Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:52:40Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:53:48Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:54:08Z pwned joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:54:15Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T12:55:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T12:57:25Z ash__ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:01:23Z sword```` joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:02:44Z sword```` is now known as sword 2015-11-21T13:03:45Z muyinliu quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-21T13:05:10Z Tyrius joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:08:24Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:10:38Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-11-21T13:11:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:11:40Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:13:10Z Tyrius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:14:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T13:15:59Z jilingju quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-11-21T13:20:02Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:20:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:23:37Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T13:25:10Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:35:01Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:35:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:36:19Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-21T13:36:57Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:41:15Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:43:33Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:45:02Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:47:26Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-11-21T13:47:37Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T13:53:20Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:54:35Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-21T13:54:55Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T13:57:12Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:06:47Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:07:12Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T14:07:31Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:10:55Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:14:19Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:15:30Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:21:24Z pyon is now known as nyon 2015-11-21T14:31:35Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:34:37Z sid_cypher: is there any way to skip evaluation of a non-body parameter of a macro? or do i have to use (defmacro test (&body body) (destructuring-bind (second body) ...)) ? 2015-11-21T14:35:36Z sid_cypher: oh, skipped a lambda-list there 2015-11-21T14:38:25Z mtl__: what do you mean by skip evaluation? every argument to a macro is unevaluated by definition 2015-11-21T14:38:47Z sid_cypher: if i treat the second item of body as the parameter list, SLIME will not show the macro-internal lambda-list of destructuring-bind, but only the outer (&body body) l-list. 2015-11-21T14:38:58Z sid_cypher: i find this a bit sad. 2015-11-21T14:40:51Z mtl__: sid_cypher: well, you don't necessarily need destructuring-bind 2015-11-21T14:41:02Z mtl__: macro lambdalists are destructuring themselves 2015-11-21T14:41:04Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:43:23Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:43:31Z sid_cypher: mtl__: true, so i'm seeking a way to _not evaluate_ an item on the macro lambdalist :) 2015-11-21T14:43:53Z mtl__: give me a more concrete example? 2015-11-21T14:44:29Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:45:31Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:45:47Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:46:03Z mtl__: your request is confusing since all macro parameters are passed in un-evaluated 2015-11-21T14:46:03Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T14:46:03Z sid_cypher: mtl__: i want to avoid the pops at the beginning by somehow not evaluating NAME in lambda-list http://paste.lisp.org/display/160205 2015-11-21T14:47:03Z sid_cypher: maybe I'm doing something weird without noticing it.. 2015-11-21T14:47:35Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:47:36Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:48:22Z mtl__: why not just do (defmacro (name (appstate lambda-list) &body body) (let ((callvar (gensym))) `(progn ...))) 2015-11-21T14:49:14Z mtl__: solves your issue with slime 2015-11-21T14:50:14Z mtl__: if you're talking about not evaluating name in the macro expansion, replace :name ,name with :name ',name 2015-11-21T14:50:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:50:25Z sid_cypher: mtl__: that's what i did originally :) then i had complaints about name being unknown. I'll keep investigating, thank you. 2015-11-21T14:51:40Z mtl__: because using ,name seems like a bug to me, if make-instance wants a symbol 2015-11-21T14:51:42Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:51:43Z sid_cypher: mtl__: that is actually really good idea. I didn't notice I could do that. Thank you. 2015-11-21T14:52:11Z mtl__: sid_cypher: be sure to use macroexpand-1 to look at the code your macro generates 2015-11-21T14:52:39Z sid_cypher: mtl__: oh yes, i do use macroexpand. 2015-11-21T14:57:06Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:57:06Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T14:57:34Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-21T14:57:45Z mtl__: sid_cypher: i believe you should be able to use a proper lambda-list now, instead of destructuring-bind 2015-11-21T14:58:08Z mtl__: what you changed it to is completely equivalent 2015-11-21T15:00:57Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:01:06Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:01:50Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:03:11Z monod joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:03:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T15:03:21Z sid_cypher: calling (defmacro lol ...) says lol is unbound. 2015-11-21T15:03:50Z sid_cypher: i mean (defrouter lol ...) 2015-11-21T15:04:07Z sid_cypher: but i don't want to say (defrouter 'lol ...) 2015-11-21T15:04:22Z mtl__: you shouldn't either 2015-11-21T15:04:24Z beach: sid_cypher: So make sure it is quoted in the expansion. 2015-11-21T15:04:35Z beach: sid_cypher: What does your macro look like at the moment? 2015-11-21T15:04:43Z mtl__: sid_cypher: paste your current code 2015-11-21T15:04:50Z ebrasca-afk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T15:06:27Z sid_cypher: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160207 2015-11-21T15:06:50Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:07:53Z mtl__: sid_cypher: and what do you get from macroexpand-1? 2015-11-21T15:08:14Z beach: sid_cypher: Since you have ',name, I don't see how LOL would be evaluated in the example call you gave. 2015-11-21T15:08:36Z mtl__: did you forget to recompile the macro? 2015-11-21T15:09:41Z sid_cypher: i didn't, but macroexpand doesn't expand right now. restarting inferior lisp 2015-11-21T15:10:29Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-11-21T15:11:24Z beach: sid_cypher: The appstate, on the other hand, looks like it is in a position to be evaluated in the expanded code. 2015-11-21T15:11:35Z beach: At least if ADD-ROUTER is a function. 2015-11-21T15:12:07Z beach: ... and same for EXTENSIONS. 2015-11-21T15:12:15Z oceanpollen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:12:42Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:13:07Z sid_cypher: mtl__: beach: annotated prev. paste 2015-11-21T15:13:54Z beach: Yes, and LOL is quoted, so I don't see how it would be evaluated. 2015-11-21T15:14:04Z beach: Oops, got to go. 2015-11-21T15:14:28Z mtl__: sid_cypher: and you still get an unbound variable error? 2015-11-21T15:14:29Z sid_cypher: apparently package :brac-conf didn't recognise macro from :brac, although (:use :brac) was specified :) 2015-11-21T15:14:42Z sid_cypher: let's see.. 2015-11-21T15:15:19Z mtl__: sid_cypher: well, even if you use the package, you still need to export the name 2015-11-21T15:16:40Z sid_cypher: yep, that was the reason :) 2015-11-21T15:16:54Z sid_cypher: mtl__: thank you very much. 2015-11-21T15:17:14Z mtl__: the macro works? 2015-11-21T15:17:29Z sid_cypher: yeah, the macro works as intended 2015-11-21T15:17:43Z ash__ left #lisp 2015-11-21T15:17:59Z mtl__: ok 2015-11-21T15:18:02Z mtl__: happy to help 2015-11-21T15:18:24Z sid_cypher: i also needed to quote the lambda-list for expansion lambda 2015-11-21T15:19:40Z mtl__: huh? what, like (lambda ',lambda-list ,@body) ? 2015-11-21T15:19:52Z sid_cypher: mtl__: yes, that's it. 2015-11-21T15:20:10Z mtl__: that doesn't quite sound right to me 2015-11-21T15:21:20Z mtl__: ,lambda-list should work 2015-11-21T15:21:24Z sid_cypher: oh, you're right, that made no sense :) 2015-11-21T15:21:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:21:38Z mtl__: the annotated macro expansion looks correct to me 2015-11-21T15:23:38Z futpib_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:24:51Z mtl__: sid_cypher: feel free to hilight me if you have any more questions; I'm always lurking :) 2015-11-21T15:25:11Z sid_cypher: mtl__: okay, thanks) 2015-11-21T15:30:54Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:32:07Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:33:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:34:56Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:40:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:42:04Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T15:42:54Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:47:50Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-21T15:48:08Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:50:17Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:52:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T15:52:13Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:57:22Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-21T15:58:36Z fcbr quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-21T16:06:06Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-21T16:08:26Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:09:39Z native_killer: is racket worth it ? 2015-11-21T16:09:59Z native_killer: or should i just learn Common lisp ? 2015-11-21T16:10:02Z shka: it is fun 2015-11-21T16:10:02Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:10:18Z shka: but common lisp seems more practical 2015-11-21T16:10:52Z shka: well, depending why do you want to learn lisp? 2015-11-21T16:11:31Z shka: native_killer: do you want to go trough sicp or just write applications? 2015-11-21T16:11:43Z sytse: learning racket might cause lots of pain because you'll hate using other languages afterwards ;-) 2015-11-21T16:11:56Z mtl__: native_killer: well, scheme is remarkably easy to learn(except for some exotic features like call/cc) 2015-11-21T16:12:27Z shka: or to be more general: do you want to learn for learning something new or any other reason 2015-11-21T16:12:35Z native_killer: shka shka to learn lisp, and build small cli tools for productivity. 2015-11-21T16:12:54Z shka: oh i see 2015-11-21T16:13:04Z shka: i guess you may try racket 2015-11-21T16:13:10Z mtl__: common lisp is a much bigger and more comprehensive language, and as such takes longer to learn completely 2015-11-21T16:13:24Z shka: racket is quite cool 2015-11-21T16:13:33Z shka: especially if you don't know how to use emacs 2015-11-21T16:13:55Z shka: but common lisp is better suited for building systems 2015-11-21T16:14:23Z shka: because you have things like clos 2015-11-21T16:14:48Z native_killer: clos == common lisp object system ? 2015-11-21T16:14:51Z shka: yes 2015-11-21T16:14:58Z shka: it is awesome 2015-11-21T16:15:05Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T16:15:15Z shka: but not really that usefull for small things 2015-11-21T16:15:22Z mtl__: if you want to learn a sane way of doing OOP, common lisp is great 2015-11-21T16:15:38Z shka: agreed 2015-11-21T16:16:10Z native_killer: mtl__, will look into it, just for right way to oop ;) 2015-11-21T16:16:21Z mtl__: scheme is maybe somewhat better for functional programming 2015-11-21T16:16:44Z shka: native_killer: i recommend you to simply check what handbooks suites you better, and roll with it 2015-11-21T16:16:46Z shka: mtl__: nah 2015-11-21T16:16:48Z mtl__: but I'd argue clojure is the most functional lisp, although I still haven't learned it myself 2015-11-21T16:17:02Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:17:12Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-21T16:17:19Z shka: native_killer: having handbook really helps 2015-11-21T16:17:25Z native_killer: what about marcos in racket ? are they as powerfull as in clojure ? 2015-11-21T16:17:27Z shka: because lisp is rather different 2015-11-21T16:18:03Z mtl__: native_killer: i dunno about racket specifically, but scheme typically doesn't have unhygienic macros, like CL and (iirc) clojure 2015-11-21T16:18:20Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:18:34Z shka: … which either is advantage or disadvantage 2015-11-21T16:19:10Z mtl__: well, I'm sure you could use unhygienic macros to implement scheme type macros 2015-11-21T16:19:26Z mtl__: so I consider it an advantage to have unhygienic macros 2015-11-21T16:19:38Z shka: if you put it this way… 2015-11-21T16:20:06Z shka: ah, one other thing 2015-11-21T16:20:31Z shka: i prefer common lisp over scheme beacuse common lisp is less functional 2015-11-21T16:20:37Z shka: but that's my thing 2015-11-21T16:20:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:20:51Z mtl__: I really should learn clojure 2015-11-21T16:21:02Z shka: same here ^_^ 2015-11-21T16:21:11Z native_killer: but jvm :( 2015-11-21T16:21:22Z mtl__: from what i've read(which isn't much), it's definitely the way to go for functional programming in lisp 2015-11-21T16:21:36Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:21:36Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T16:21:44Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:21:50Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:21:52Z sytse: mtl__: meh, it doesn't have a full typing system like racket 2015-11-21T16:22:08Z sytse: ie 2015-11-21T16:22:10Z shka: native_killer: there is possibility of getting job with clojure, in the case of common lisp is a lot harder 2015-11-21T16:22:26Z native_killer: that's true.. 2015-11-21T16:22:27Z sytse: there's typed racket to experiment with haskell-like programming in scheme 2015-11-21T16:22:39Z mtl__: sytse: hmm, I didn 2015-11-21T16:22:42Z mtl__: didn't know that 2015-11-21T16:22:45Z shka: there is also Qi 2015-11-21T16:22:55Z shka: which looks reeeeeeeeeeeally cool 2015-11-21T16:22:59Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:23:14Z shka: ML + lisp 2015-11-21T16:23:25Z mtl__: speaking of lisp dialects, anyone here familiar with kernel? 2015-11-21T16:23:34Z sytse is writing an implementation 2015-11-21T16:23:35Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:23:37Z sytse: it's AWESOME 2015-11-21T16:23:53Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:24:03Z mtl__: sytse: I've only really read some of that dude's doctoral dissertation 2015-11-21T16:24:06Z shka has no idea what it is 2015-11-21T16:24:10Z mtl__: and found the f-expression stuff interesting 2015-11-21T16:24:41Z mtl__: though I never got a proper understanding of how i would use them in place of macros 2015-11-21T16:25:01Z sytse: (but it's kind of a lot of work to write a complete optimizer from scratch, having no serious prior experience with compiler writing. Will take some more months I guess) 2015-11-21T16:25:47Z sytse: the really nice bit, as I understand it now that I have half of an implementation of an optimizing compiler for it, is that it makes the optimizer *much* easier 2015-11-21T16:26:19Z sytse: because you basically have this tiny language, like haskell has, that's all the optimizer needs to worry about 2015-11-21T16:26:38Z mtl__: I just thought the wrap/unwrap thing was pretty sweet, although I have no idea what I'd use it for 2015-11-21T16:28:56Z sytse: but because of vau calculus, things like reducing and optimizing things with partial knowledge of the program, before you've even parsed the whole source code, become possible (and absolutely necessary for parsing kernel source code at all, which is the flip side) 2015-11-21T16:29:05Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:30:24Z mtl__: sytse: what language are you writing it in? and is your project online somewhere? 2015-11-21T16:30:31Z sytse: but what this means is, that everything that in other languages is very complicated internal compiler code, and usually complicated optimization steps as well, can now be done using source code expressions that can use lambda functions at will 2015-11-21T16:30:39Z sytse: mtl__: I'm writing it in kernel 2015-11-21T16:30:48Z mtl__: oh, neat 2015-11-21T16:31:21Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:31:32Z sytse: I first wrote a horrific kernel compiler in elisp, then a bad one in kernel, and now rewriting that into a somewhat decent one 2015-11-21T16:32:21Z mtl__: I would love seeing some real kernel code, to get an idea of how it works 2015-11-21T16:33:26Z mtl__: so if your code is on github or somewhere, a link would be much appreciated :) 2015-11-21T16:33:27Z sytse: but the cool thing is that it's powerful enough, that something like making an OOP implementation, CLOS-like or smalltalk-like or ruby-like or whatever, is trivially simple 2015-11-21T16:34:00Z sytse: or many, many other things that without vau calculus take enormous efforts in extending the compiler 2015-11-21T16:37:28Z sid_cypher still has not learned Qi :( 2015-11-21T16:37:30Z sytse: http://paste.lisp.org/submit <-- this is an implementation of scheme rec that I wrote, it works and does optimize out 100%, although I wouldn't want to use this one in kernel because of style issues 2015-11-21T16:38:06Z sytse: and you could just put this inside of your lambda function and use it, or pass this around as a first-class value 2015-11-21T16:38:34Z sid_cypher: sytse: wrong link 2015-11-21T16:38:38Z mtl__: sytse: uh, your link is to the submit page 2015-11-21T16:39:01Z sytse: http://paste.lisp.org/+3FMI 2015-11-21T16:39:07Z sytse: whut. I'm not usually this blind 2015-11-21T16:40:07Z sytse: that's an implementation of http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-31/srfi-31.html 2015-11-21T16:40:10Z gdmalet joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:40:22Z beach: sytse: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. 2015-11-21T16:42:26Z sytse: I should get back to coding anyway, talking endlessly about something that's 10% done isn't really all that helpful I guess 2015-11-21T16:42:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:43:09Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:43:51Z native_killer: yaah, you should 2015-11-21T16:44:41Z native_killer: building a language i really hard work 2015-11-21T16:44:46Z sytse: yup 2015-11-21T16:44:54Z native_killer: i also started a language project. 2015-11-21T16:44:55Z native_killer: i'm still working on parsing and ast. 2015-11-21T16:44:59Z sytse: especially because you start to question everything 2015-11-21T16:45:08Z sytse: and then realize that you *need* to question everything 2015-11-21T16:45:23Z sytse: and the answer doesn't turn out to be 42 :-( 2015-11-21T16:45:46Z native_killer: :p 2015-11-21T16:46:15Z sytse: kernel is pretty interesting because it's impossible to create an ast :-D 2015-11-21T16:46:26Z mtl__: yeah i bet it's like 42.000000001 2015-11-21T16:46:30Z mtl__: damned floating points 2015-11-21T16:47:02Z native_killer: i'm doing it in rust 2015-11-21T16:47:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:47:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:47:51Z mtl__: native_killer: btw, about your earlier question 2015-11-21T16:48:08Z mtl__: i believe guile is a scheme implementation that has unhygienic macros 2015-11-21T16:48:42Z Shinmera: Can we get back to Common Lisp? You can take this to ##lisp or #lispcafe if you want to continue with the conversation. 2015-11-21T16:49:18Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:49:19Z native_killer: ahh ok thanks 2015-11-21T16:49:41Z akash joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:50:03Z akash quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T16:50:13Z akash joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:50:53Z native_killer: but i still need to learn about macros in gernal. i don't understand macros. i was just curious to know if racket support unhygienic macros or not 2015-11-21T16:51:07Z native_killer: but thanks for your support :) 2015-11-21T16:51:11Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:51:23Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:51:38Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:52:10Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:53:55Z lemonpepper24 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T16:54:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:56:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T16:59:04Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T17:05:10Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:05:22Z sid_cypher: lol 42.000000001 2015-11-21T17:05:49Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:06:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:08:48Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:13:55Z kothawale joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:13:59Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:14:33Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:15:20Z knicklux quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T17:15:36Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T17:15:36Z kothawale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T17:16:54Z akash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:23:15Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:23:40Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:31:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:31:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-21T17:32:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:33:14Z nyon is now known as pyon 2015-11-21T17:34:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-21T17:36:09Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 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I got automatic form creation for objects worked out for the most part in Qui: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6I_CYF0w4E 2015-11-21T19:12:20Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T19:13:02Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:13:06Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:17:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:17:05Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T19:17:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:17:38Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:19:12Z InvalidCo: how should I (why shouldn't I) catch a condition in another thread and re-signal it? 2015-11-21T19:19:13Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:19:51Z InvalidCo: restarts might not work but the main problem is (signal captured-condition) does not invoke the debugger for errors 2015-11-21T19:20:19Z malice: Hello. Where does symbol of the function belong to when I define it with defun? Here's why I'm asking: I'm creating a package and putting (cons *package* (package-use-list *package*)) as :use for the package. I can see all functions of imported packages, but not the ones I defined in REPL 2015-11-21T19:20:22Z Shinmera: (handler-bind ((your-signal #'invoke-debugger)) thread-body) 2015-11-21T19:20:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:20:41Z malice: So I did (in-package :vecto), then defined some function, then created my package and went to it 2015-11-21T19:20:52Z malice: And i t doesn't have my function in there(although other vecto's functions are there) 2015-11-21T19:21:57Z InvalidCo: malice: do you see it if you write package::function 2015-11-21T19:23:03Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-21T19:23:25Z mtl__: malice: it probably isn't exported 2015-11-21T19:23:26Z InvalidCo: Shinmera: I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough 2015-11-21T19:23:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:24:28Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T19:24:35Z Shinmera: InvalidCo: Indeed. 2015-11-21T19:24:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:26:01Z Shinmera: Generally you don't want to resignal conditions anyway because you lose the stack trace. Use handler-bind to do a thing and then just don't invoke a restart, or resignal from there if you must. 2015-11-21T19:26:08Z namespace: If I use setq to redefine a variable inside a (let) it'll still be removed from the namespace after the let statement terminates right? 2015-11-21T19:26:45Z Shinmera: namespace: Well the binding is only active within the LET. 2015-11-21T19:26:57Z Shinmera: So it's not really removed, it simply doesn't exist to begin with. 2015-11-21T19:27:08Z namespace: Point. Thanks. 2015-11-21T19:27:23Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:27:36Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:28:09Z malice: Ah, true. 2015-11-21T19:29:20Z phoe_krk: drmeister: clasp 0.4! congrats! 2015-11-21T19:29:34Z Shinmera: Now on to 0.5.0 2015-11-21T19:30:39Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T19:30:49Z InvalidCo: Shinmera: I wrote some stuff to execute code in another thread (accessing non-cl context, basically opengl) and return possible return values 2015-11-21T19:31:22Z InvalidCo: I was thinking that it'd be nice to be able to handle possible errors but I guess the ui-errors have to be handled inside the ui-context-code 2015-11-21T19:31:40Z InvalidCo: other than failure to connect to the user-interface stuffs 2015-11-21T19:31:47Z Shinmera: Conditions can't cross thread boundaries if that's what you're thinking. 2015-11-21T19:32:03Z malice: Then how can I get a package that will be actually a copy of the package I'm in? What I mean, is that if I am in package X, and I create and go to(in-package) package Y, I want everything to look the same. 2015-11-21T19:32:09Z malice: e.g. have not-exported functions there too 2015-11-21T19:32:26Z Shinmera: What you can do is use something like dissect to capture the current environment (stack, restarts & conditions), put that onto a global variable somewhere, and then inspect that from a different thread. 2015-11-21T19:32:45Z Shinmera: It won't allow you to choose restarts, but it'll give you a way to inspect on the problem and potentially choose solutions if the debugger is not available. 2015-11-21T19:32:49Z InvalidCo: mm 2015-11-21T19:33:10Z drmeister: phoe_krk: Thanks! 2015-11-21T19:33:12Z InvalidCo: guess I'll have to look into that after I run into an actual use case :) 2015-11-21T19:33:25Z Shinmera: I do that kind of thing in eg my web framework where it should be mostly autonomous, but I want to have informative logs and such to inspect problems at a later point. 2015-11-21T19:33:30Z phoe_krk: drmeister: pass the cheers to all of the dev team whenever you have a chance 2015-11-21T19:33:55Z Shinmera: But I still always have a global variable to be able to turn the lisp debugger on or off globally so I can inspect problems as they happen too. 2015-11-21T19:34:20Z InvalidCo: *break-on-signals*? 2015-11-21T19:34:47Z Shinmera: So my threads have something akin to (handler-bind ((error (lambda (err) (if *debugger* (invoke-debugger err) (continue))))) ..) 2015-11-21T19:35:39Z Shinmera: But that approach may or may not be suitable depending on your scenario, so ymmv. 2015-11-21T19:36:16Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:36:35Z axion quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T19:39:06Z afschw joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:40:33Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:44:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:46:15Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T19:47:21Z axion joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:49:01Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-21T19:52:39Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:54:48Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:58:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T19:59:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-21T19:59:39Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:02:15Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:03:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:03:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:04:50Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:05:03Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:05:26Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:08:30Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:10:15Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:11:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:11:50Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:13:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:14:46Z drmeister: Thank you phoe_krk - I will. 2015-11-21T20:15:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:16:26Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:19:14Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:21:15Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:21:16Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:23:16Z impulse- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T20:23:41Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:30:35Z mtl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T20:31:23Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:31:58Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T20:32:17Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:32:19Z youngbaks quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T20:34:16Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:34:51Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:34:58Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T20:35:10Z Xach_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:37:02Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:37:37Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:39:38Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:39:52Z Xach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:44:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:50:30Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T20:51:18Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:52:30Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T20:55:12Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:55:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:56:13Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:57:12Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T20:57:59Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:59:19Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-21T20:59:52Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T21:00:49Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-21T21:04:01Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:07:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:07:53Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:12:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T21:13:49Z bege joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:13:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T21:13:55Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T21:14:35Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T21:15:09Z sid_cypher: Parenscript from Quicklisp fails to build in my SBCL :( 2015-11-21T21:15:19Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:15:56Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T21:16:03Z nyef: Which SBCL do you have... and which Quicklisp? 2015-11-21T21:16:04Z sid_cypher: says read-error during compile-file, some type assert in a macro fails 2015-11-21T21:16:55Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:17:19Z sid_cypher: nyef: SBCL 1.3.0, cannot find QL version 2015-11-21T21:17:52Z nyef: ... And possibly, what's sb-impl::*default-external-format* ? 2015-11-21T21:17:55Z sid_cypher: i did update-client and update-all-dists, though 2015-11-21T21:18:05Z nyef: Okay, so a very recent quicklisp dist. 2015-11-21T21:18:22Z sid_cypher: nyef: and it's :UTF-8 2015-11-21T21:19:18Z nyef: I'm not going to tell you that SBCL 1.3.0 is old and that you should update. That won't be the case for about another week. 2015-11-21T21:19:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:20:24Z sid_cypher: eh, i doubt it is SBCL anyway 2015-11-21T21:22:06Z nyef: Probably not, but since we're actually in code-freeze right now I'd like to know if it IS. 2015-11-21T21:22:34Z _death: what's this slime drama 2015-11-21T21:22:39Z sid_cypher: oh, hey, it's loaded! hmm. It failed to load when it was a dependency of Spinneret 2015-11-21T21:22:53Z nyef: Because there's still a chance to get a fix in, and even if there isn't it can be in early next month. 2015-11-21T21:23:27Z nyef: XachX: Any ideas on your end? 2015-11-21T21:23:37Z sid_cypher: nyef: thanks and sorry for you trouble, reloading into fresh image has fixed it. 2015-11-21T21:23:49Z nyef: Ah, okay. 2015-11-21T21:23:56Z sid_cypher: apparently it was all my bad. 2015-11-21T21:24:16Z nyef: XachX: Nevermind, apparently a corrupted lisp process. 2015-11-21T21:24:46Z nyef: Okay then. 2015-11-21T21:24:52Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:29:37Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-11-21T21:29:37Z 2015-11-21T21:29:37Z names: ccl-logbot hardenedapple attila_lendvai scymtym_ csziacobus bege Nikotiini EvW zch s00pcan zotherstupidguy antonv truecoldmind moei otjura shookees mvilleneuve futpib lnostdal ebrasca cagmz axion defaultxr afschw kyfho erjoalgo kobain malice InvalidCo lemonpepper24 mastokley 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Today is the day :) 2015-11-21T22:06:52Z xargs: I know that emacs is extended through elisp but I wan't to learn lisp proper. Is SBCL the way to go? 2015-11-21T22:07:13Z xargs: I'm going to probably use slime in emacs. 2015-11-21T22:09:50Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:09:50Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T22:10:14Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:11:46Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:11:52Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:11:58Z antonv: xargs: yes, sbcl is good, rigth decistion to use slime 2015-11-21T22:12:11Z antonv: xargs: do you need guidance in setting up everything and getting started? 2015-11-21T22:13:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:13:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T22:13:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:14:11Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:17:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:20:17Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T22:21:05Z antonv: DeadTrickster_: hi 2015-11-21T22:21:18Z antonv: merged your pull request for cl+ssl 2015-11-21T22:21:20Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:21:43Z antonv: but unfortunately still had not time to work with the previous one, about verification 2015-11-21T22:21:49Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:22:48Z antonv: DeadTrickster_: btw, do you know any public server where we can test https verification handling? 2015-11-21T22:23:58Z antonv: I mean a server which can respond with various wrong replies, like hostame different in certificate and the URL at which this server is available 2015-11-21T22:24:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-21T22:26:32Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:26:32Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T22:26:32Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:26:46Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:26:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:31:31Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:31:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:33:05Z James__ joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:33:20Z DeadTrickster: antonv, yep 2015-11-21T22:33:37Z DeadTrickster: antonv, https://badssl.com/ 2015-11-21T22:33:46Z DeadTrickster: antonv, hi ) 2015-11-21T22:35:05Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:35:09Z xargs quit (Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS) 2015-11-21T22:35:20Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:35:20Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:35:24Z DeadTrickster: antonv, I think cl+ssl should be splitted into two systems .libssl-ffi (which exports stuff like tlsv1-1-method, context modifiers etc) and something like cl+ssl.usocket 2015-11-21T22:35:42Z DeadTrickster: because cl-async for example uses separate ffi layer 2015-11-21T22:36:19Z xdrjbotts quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:36:31Z DeadTrickster: hence there will be cl+ssl.usocket, cl+ssl.async, cl+ssl.iolib 2015-11-21T22:36:33Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:37:39Z DeadTrickster: antonv, also, I don't know who is in charge of cl-plus-ssl organization but I'm ready to move host name verification to separate repo. and I think keeping it under cl+ssl umbrella is a good idea too 2015-11-21T22:38:44Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-21T22:43:14Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:44:55Z malbertife_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T22:46:06Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:46:51Z antonv: DeadTrickster: I want to say 3 things 2015-11-21T22:47:45Z antonv: 1) I share the view that separating pure lowevel ffi (ffi.lisp) into a separate level makes sense 2015-11-21T22:48:42Z antonv: 2) I don't fully understand what do you maan about cl+ssl.usocket, cl+ssl.async, ... 2015-11-21T22:49:09Z antonv: I think packages like this should live in their corresponding projects (usocket, cl-async, ...) 2015-11-21T22:49:21Z antonv: do you mean to include them into cl+ssl? 2015-11-21T22:49:47Z DeadTrickster: antonv, tell third thing first -) 2015-11-21T22:50:00Z DeadTrickster: while I'm writing response for 2) 2015-11-21T22:50:34Z antonv: DeadTrickster: the 3rd one is long, let's go deep-first into 2) please, and then return to 3) 2015-11-21T22:51:11Z DeadTrickster: antonv, I'm telling about adapters. cl+ssl now is essentially ffi + usockets adapter 2015-11-21T22:51:20Z DeadTrickster: while not depending directly on usockets 2015-11-21T22:51:24Z DeadTrickster: it mostly used with it 2015-11-21T22:51:37Z DeadTrickster: because usocket export classical stream-based interface 2015-11-21T22:51:41Z antonv: ok. What would cl+ssl.async adapter do? 2015-11-21T22:51:42Z magicalChicken joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:51:49Z DeadTrickster: maybe this should be named as cl+ssl.streams 2015-11-21T22:51:57Z DeadTrickster: that's adapter for cl-async 2015-11-21T22:52:11Z DeadTrickster: it will share a lot of code actually with cl+ssl.iolib 2015-11-21T22:52:15Z antonv: how woould it work, or how to use it? 2015-11-21T22:52:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:52:51Z DeadTrickster: say I want to use iolib. they didn't implemented ssl support yet 2015-11-21T22:53:01Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:53:10Z antonv: i think I am starting to understand 2015-11-21T22:53:18Z DeadTrickster: since cl+ssl is synonym for ssl in CL world I will go to cl-plus-ssl 2015-11-21T22:54:17Z antonv: you man a set of convenientce, helper functions, which make it easy to make iolib-implemented network communication with ssl protection 2015-11-21T22:55:11Z antonv: *man = mEan 2015-11-21T22:55:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:55:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-21T22:55:28Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-21T22:55:29Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T22:55:40Z antonv: .. to _wrap_ iolib-implemented network communication with ssl protection 2015-11-21T22:55:48Z DeadTrickster: yes 2015-11-21T22:55:53Z DeadTrickster: 1sec 2015-11-21T22:56:02Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:56:06Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/tree/master/src/ssl 2015-11-21T22:56:08Z DeadTrickster: look here 2015-11-21T22:56:14Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:56:14Z DeadTrickster: he reimplemented it himself 2015-11-21T22:56:39Z zch quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-21T22:56:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-21T22:56:49Z DeadTrickster: and this is not good particularly because this type of knowledge should be concentrated in one place 2015-11-21T22:57:03Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-21T22:57:32Z DeadTrickster: why? for example bugs should be fixed immediately everywhere 2015-11-21T22:57:50Z antonv: I see 2015-11-21T22:58:06Z DeadTrickster: also because of buffered openssl nature all adapter will share something 2015-11-21T22:58:12Z DeadTrickster: that is my reasoning 2015-11-21T22:58:25Z DeadTrickster: number three? I'm intrigued 2015-11-21T23:00:32Z antonv: the approach chosen by cl-async author is a valid and reasonable too - it gives him more control and convenience when developing, instead of requesting minor extentions from cl+ssl and waiting they are implemented or merged 2015-11-21T23:01:06Z magicalChicken left #lisp 2015-11-21T23:01:19Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:01:48Z antonv: Later cl-async can move to using cl+ssl, if all the ssl features implemented by cl-async are migrated to cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:01:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:01:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T23:01:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:02:22Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-21T23:02:39Z antonv: So it can eventually end-up as you see it, but incrementally, in smaller steps 2015-11-21T23:02:48Z antonv: And about cl+ssl design. 2015-11-21T23:03:06Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-21T23:03:12Z antonv: I think, it's better to focus cl+ssl on being plain, simple wrapper on OpenSSL 2015-11-21T23:03:20Z antonv: without andy right lispy API 2015-11-21T23:03:57Z DeadTrickster: antonv, maybe it's name as single system is to general 2015-11-21T23:04:11Z DeadTrickster: as a name for github organization it is perfect 2015-11-21T23:04:21Z DeadTrickster: but clearly it is not a single project 2015-11-21T23:04:35Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:04:39Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:04:42Z antonv: Because designing full, correct, and well factorized API is a task more complex and expensive than we can solve in our opens source lisp community 2015-11-21T23:04:48Z DeadTrickster: my code for custom context is full of :: to access private symbols 2015-11-21T23:05:20Z DeadTrickster: antonv, for streams there is not much to thing about 2015-11-21T23:05:24Z antonv: I think we shoudld make ffi.lisp a separate package, wich exports all the FFI API for OpenSSL 2015-11-21T23:05:25Z DeadTrickster: just gray streams 2015-11-21T23:05:59Z DeadTrickster: but today we have not only stream based networking that is the problem 2015-11-21T23:06:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:06:11Z antonv: All the tiings on top of ffi.lisp can evolve in specific projects (libraries, applications) 2015-11-21T23:06:25Z DeadTrickster: yep 2015-11-21T23:06:48Z DeadTrickster: however, let me reiterate. what if I'm implementing ssl for iolib 2015-11-21T23:07:04Z antonv: People just use normal OpenSSL API. And then, various convenience lispy helpers, which are often needed can be accumulated in cl+ssl by migrating them from specific projects. 2015-11-21T23:07:06Z DeadTrickster: I don't need rest of the cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:07:46Z DeadTrickster: antonv, let's start with exporting ffi.lisp stuff first 2015-11-21T23:07:51Z antonv: right 2015-11-21T23:07:54Z antonv: I agree 2015-11-21T23:07:59Z DeadTrickster: antonv, also what you think about host verification repo? 2015-11-21T23:08:03Z antonv: No the issue 3) 2015-11-21T23:08:13Z pjb: xargs: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 2015-11-21T23:08:23Z pjb: antonv: : http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 2015-11-21T23:08:51Z antonv: pjb: thanks 2015-11-21T23:08:59Z DeadTrickster: antonv, what you mean? 2015-11-21T23:09:17Z DeadTrickster: antonv, I think I'll just port https://github.com/deadtrickster/ssl_verify_hostname.erl to lisp 2015-11-21T23:09:28Z DeadTrickster: it's well test by #erlang guys 2015-11-21T23:09:31Z antonv: pjb: good page, but I would give a simpler, easier to follow, interactive, real-time, personalized guidance to xargs :) 2015-11-21T23:09:32Z DeadTrickster: tested 2015-11-21T23:09:55Z pjb: antonv: goog success, he already left! 2015-11-21T23:10:00Z antonv: DeadTrickster: sorry, I wanted to say "noW the issue 3)" 2015-11-21T23:10:11Z antonv: pjb: :)) 2015-11-21T23:10:13Z pjb: always give the url first, ask questions later. 2015-11-21T23:10:25Z DeadTrickster: pjb, like https://google.com 2015-11-21T23:10:31Z pjb: exactly. 2015-11-21T23:10:34Z antonv: pjb: what can I do now... let's wait for another person 2015-11-21T23:10:38Z DeadTrickster: lmgtfy 2015-11-21T23:10:43Z DeadTrickster: or how it is 2015-11-21T23:11:08Z DeadTrickster: wow exactly lmgtfy 2015-11-21T23:11:18Z antonv: DeadTrickster: so, the issue 3: 2015-11-21T23:11:24Z antonv: About your pull request 2015-11-21T23:11:34Z antonv: I haven't integrated it yet for several reasons 2015-11-21T23:11:40Z antonv: it's quite large 2015-11-21T23:12:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:12:09Z antonv: if it was separated into several peices, it could be simpler 2015-11-21T23:12:21Z antonv: for example, there is not problems to commit your changes to ffi.lisp 2015-11-21T23:12:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:12:40Z antonv: just more ffi symbols - that's always good and doesn't break anything 2015-11-21T23:12:58Z antonv: another part - your proposed verification.lisp 2015-11-21T23:13:39Z antonv: there you implement verification primitives absent in old OpenSSL versions (but new OpenSSL provides functionality for them) 2015-11-21T23:13:53Z antonv: again, no problem to privide such utility functions in cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:14:41Z antonv: It would be necessary to add a file header comment to verification.lisp, explaining the goal of those functions, and them commit it mostly as it is now 2015-11-21T23:15:20Z DeadTrickster: antonv, I understand you 2015-11-21T23:15:46Z antonv: The 3rp part of your pull request is change of cl+ssl public API (mostly streams.lisp) 2015-11-21T23:16:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:17:23Z antonv: Essentially, you extend cl+ssl:make-ssl-client-stream with parameter :hostname which specifies what hostname to use, and also requires hostmane to be verifies to match the certificate 2015-11-21T23:17:37Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-21T23:17:46Z antonv: Also you change how default context is initialized (reaload.lisp, if I rememember correctly) 2015-11-21T23:18:05Z DeadTrickster: antonv, yeah default context initialization is questionable 2015-11-21T23:18:08Z antonv: I am in doubds about this 3rd part of your pull request 2015-11-21T23:18:29Z antonv: My doubds: 2015-11-21T23:18:32Z DeadTrickster: however why bother with ssl at all if you are not verifying peer? 2015-11-21T23:18:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:19:06Z DeadTrickster: it useless and create fake safety feeling 2015-11-21T23:19:20Z antonv: a) I doubt one parameter should control both parts: what hostname to pass in the request to server, and how to verify hostname 2015-11-21T23:19:44Z antonv: DeadTrickster: [I fully agree that verification is needed] 2015-11-21T23:20:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:20:12Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-21T23:21:29Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-21T23:21:40Z antonv: b) I doubd about default context initialization API. I thihk it's better, instead of providing universal context initalization, just to allow user to initialize context himself and pass it to make-ssl-client-stream 2015-11-21T23:21:53Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:21:53Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-21T23:22:00Z antonv: In short, I am indecisive about what API is better 2015-11-21T23:22:06Z xristos quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-21T23:22:11Z antonv: It's diffictult to design API in abstract form 2015-11-21T23:22:18Z antonv: But I know how to decide this. 2015-11-21T23:22:24Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:23:29Z antonv: I think it makes sence to first try to implement at least one use case for verification in a specific library or applicacation. 2015-11-21T23:23:53Z antonv: And them take convenient, reusable parts from that implementation and migrate them into cl+ssl. 2015-11-21T23:24:08Z antonv: In particular, I would like to try implement hostname verification in drakma. 2015-11-21T23:24:25Z antonv: We have drakma:http-request which allows for https URL 2015-11-21T23:24:39Z afschw left #lisp 2015-11-21T23:25:22Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-21T23:25:23Z antonv: If we implement hostname verification in drakma, based in the most convenient way for us, we will see what parts of that implementation make sence to be included into cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:25:33Z antonv: DeadTrickster: what do you think of that plan? 2015-11-21T23:25:56Z antonv: To start with hostname verification patch for drakma, and then see what parts of that patch should be in cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:26:46Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:27:35Z DeadTrickster: antonv, 1 sec 2015-11-21T23:28:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:28:16Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:28:33Z DeadTrickster: antonv, https://github.com/deadtrickster/cl-dropbox/blob/master/src/ssl.lisp 2015-11-21T23:28:33Z antonv: BTW, that's why I asked about a service with bad SSL responces. I remember you showed it me once, but I forgot it's address (https://badssl.com/) 2015-11-21T23:28:42Z DeadTrickster: look here 2015-11-21T23:28:47Z antonv: Yes, yes 2015-11-21T23:28:49Z antonv: I remember that 2015-11-21T23:29:01Z DeadTrickster: I'm using custom context as well as hostname chaecking 2015-11-21T23:29:03Z DeadTrickster: checking 2015-11-21T23:29:21Z antonv: yes, yes 2015-11-21T23:29:26Z DeadTrickster: also all my cl-smtp stuff is wrapped in custom context 2015-11-21T23:29:33Z DeadTrickster: and a couple of other things ) 2015-11-21T23:29:39Z antonv: But I would like to try for drakma too too 2015-11-21T23:29:58Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:30:10Z antonv: Ah, also, in order to commit the API improvement to cl+ssl we will need docs update 2015-11-21T23:30:18Z antonv: with description of new parameters/functions. And links to examples 2015-11-21T23:30:36Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-21T23:31:41Z antonv: So, in your pull request, there are 3 parts: 1 - ffi.lisp - trifial; 2 - verification.lisp - simple; 3 - the API improvement - more difficutl and requires more additional work (like docs) 2015-11-21T23:33:01Z DeadTrickster: antonv, I'm maintaining drakma fork because of that 2015-11-21T23:33:27Z DeadTrickster: antonv, of you will be as responsive as tonight I will spend some time on this 2015-11-21T23:33:29Z antonv: DeadTrickster: oh 2015-11-21T23:33:38Z antonv: let's get rid of your drakma fork first 2015-11-21T23:33:56Z DeadTrickster: antonv, that requires hostname verification 2015-11-21T23:34:06Z DeadTrickster: I'll better follow your three steps 2015-11-21T23:34:15Z antonv: can you show your fork to me 2015-11-21T23:34:17Z antonv: ? 2015-11-21T23:34:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:34:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-21T23:34:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:35:11Z antonv: where it is? 2015-11-21T23:35:24Z antonv: DeadTrickster, and issue 4) 2015-11-21T23:35:33Z antonv: You asked whos is in charge of cl+ssl 2015-11-21T23:35:40Z antonv: We can consider me in charge 2015-11-21T23:36:35Z antonv: I recognize primate of David Lichtblau, but he never does anything there, and never replies 2015-11-21T23:37:01Z antonv: of course I would consider comments from anyone in the community 2015-11-21T23:37:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-21T23:37:21Z antonv: But now I am the only commiter except for incactive David Lichtblau 2015-11-21T23:37:42Z antonv: DeadTrickster, since your verification pull request I was considering to invite your 2015-11-21T23:37:44Z antonv: you 2015-11-21T23:38:04Z antonv: but I was in doubt about the API chages, as I explained above 2015-11-21T23:38:39Z antonv: but changes to ffi.lisp - no problem, verification.lisp - no problem, lets commit them 2015-11-21T23:39:26Z antonv: If you want to have cl+ssl.async, cl+ssl.usocket, I thik they can be just separate projects of yours, but you are more than welcome to have them in cl-plus-ssl org at github 2015-11-21T23:40:57Z DeadTrickster: antonv, 1 sec 2015-11-21T23:41:32Z DeadTrickster: antonv, https://github.com/deadtrickster/drakma 2015-11-21T23:42:09Z DeadTrickster: antonv, actually only :hostname is relevant to this conversation 2015-11-21T23:43:56Z lnostdal quit (Quit: Invest and trade anonymously: https://goo.gl/NwRDC2) 2015-11-21T23:44:01Z antonv: you mean :hostname is the only real "problem" I am in doubt about? 2015-11-21T23:45:00Z antonv: Essentially yes, + some minor thinks like you change context initialization - you load all the certificates from file system default location 2015-11-21T23:45:21Z antonv: Previously it wasn't so, which is an incompatible API change 2015-11-21T23:45:31Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-21T23:45:46Z antonv: Maybe useful for majority of cases, but still not backward compatible strictly speaking 2015-11-21T23:45:50Z antonv: that worries me too 2015-11-21T23:47:50Z antonv: DeadTrickster: do you have a test drakma:http-request example to badssl.com which works (incorrectly) with current drakma, but correctly detects a verification error with your patched drakma? 2015-11-21T23:52:55Z antonv: DeadTrickster: btw, I can't find in your drakma branch the hostname verification changes. There are 4 commits by you (https://github.com/deadtrickster/drakma/commits/master?author=deadtrickster), but they all seem to be unrelated 2015-11-21T23:57:16Z DeadTrickster: antonv, sec 2015-11-21T23:57:19Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:57:32Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-21T23:58:46Z DeadTrickster: antonv, (drakma:http-request "https://wrong.host.badssl.com/") 2015-11-22T00:00:26Z DeadTrickster: antonv, there actually should be more but I can't help here since my cl+ssl is patched ) 2015-11-22T00:00:31Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:01:54Z antonv: DeadTrickster, I think a request like this should be added to drakma test suite in the patch which will be probosed to drakma 2015-11-22T00:02:38Z antonv: DeadTrickster, you can help, at least suggest verification use cases 2015-11-22T00:03:01Z antonv: With wrong.host.badssl.com we will be verifying hostname 2015-11-22T00:03:14Z antonv: What else? Should drakma verify IP? 2015-11-22T00:03:41Z antonv: What other aspects will be fixed? 2015-11-22T00:07:05Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T00:08:51Z antonv: DeadTrickster, I dound a way to compare your drakma with edicl/drakma, so my above question is solved now 2015-11-22T00:09:43Z antonv: DeadTrickster, I'll be away of keyboard for maybe 1 hour. If we don't chat today, let's communicate by email later 2015-11-22T00:10:28Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:10:33Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:10:55Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:11:02Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:11:27Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:12:58Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:14:05Z DeadTrickster: antonv, yep I have to go now too I think you on my skype contact list too 2015-11-22T00:15:43Z antonv: yes, I have you in skype too 2015-11-22T00:15:47Z antonv: ok 2015-11-22T00:15:49Z antonv: good night 2015-11-22T00:16:38Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:19:20Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-22T00:20:29Z erjoalgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T00:21:44Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-22T00:23:07Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:27:32Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-22T00:27:55Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:28:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T00:28:19Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:30:08Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T00:30:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:31:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:33:24Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-22T00:33:33Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:33:48Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T00:33:59Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T00:34:10Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T00:34:11Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:36:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-22T00:38:53Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:39:11Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:42:34Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-11-22T00:46:01Z eni_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:46:30Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T00:48:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:50:54Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:51:35Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T00:52:21Z dxtr quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T00:52:43Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:55:30Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:56:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-22T00:59:39Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T01:02:02Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:02:52Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:08:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:12:17Z broken_clock quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-22T01:13:25Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T01:13:39Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:15:31Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-22T01:16:01Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:16:34Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:19:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:24:30Z housel joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:31:51Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-11-22T01:34:06Z runciter joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:34:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:36:53Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:39:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:40:05Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:46:21Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-22T01:46:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T01:46:29Z Posterdati: which is the type of a class? 2015-11-22T01:47:10Z Bike: standard-class, most of the time. 2015-11-22T01:47:15Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-22T01:47:58Z Posterdati: (typep test-mcp23017::*mcp23017-object* 'standard-class) NIL 2015-11-22T01:48:12Z Posterdati: I defined a class mcp23017-class 2015-11-22T01:48:22Z Posterdati: and instantiate an object 2015-11-22T01:48:38Z Bike: ...then your class is obviously going to be an mcp23017-class? 2015-11-22T01:49:35Z Bike: if you define a class and instantiate a class the instantiated object is going to have that class. that is pretty basic. 2015-11-22T01:49:39Z Posterdati: what if I want to set a member of a class that could be bind to different class objects? 2015-11-22T01:50:33Z Bike: standard-class and mcp23017-class are almost certainly subclasses of cl:class. 2015-11-22T01:50:37Z Posterdati: I mean if I want to set the member type with :type 2015-11-22T01:51:22Z Posterdati: (typep test-mcp23017::*mcp23017-object* 'cl:class) 2015-11-22T01:51:24Z Posterdati: NIL 2015-11-22T01:51:36Z Bike: the OBJECT is not a CLASS. 2015-11-22T01:51:39Z Bike: the CLASS is a class. 2015-11-22T01:53:03Z Bike: if you want a type for objects in general, that's T. 2015-11-22T01:53:37Z Bike: there's standard-object, but you might have non standard objects. 2015-11-22T01:55:38Z Posterdati: ok 2015-11-22T01:57:29Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T02:00:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:00:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-22T02:01:53Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:05:20Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-22T02:07:37Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T02:16:32Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T02:16:33Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T02:27:12Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T02:27:36Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:30:12Z eni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T02:35:24Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:37:58Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:39:11Z bklr joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:40:18Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-22T02:43:24Z pjb: Posterdati: you see to be very confused about classes and instances. 2015-11-22T02:46:16Z pjb: Posterdati: 1- any class automatically defines a type of same name containing all the _INSTANCES_ of that class (and its subclasses). http://paste.lisp.org/+3FP8 2015-11-22T02:46:43Z pjb: Posterdati: 2- an instance has as type its class, and all its superclasses. 2015-11-22T02:47:25Z pjb: Posterdati: 3- a class has as type its metaclass (that is, it's its class, but since it's the class of a class, we call it a metaclass). A class is an instance of its metaclass, so it's an instance like any other other instance. 2015-11-22T02:49:00Z pjb: Posterdati: standard classes are instances of the metaclass standard-class. Instances of Instances of standard-class are standard-object: (typep (make-instance 'a) 'standard-object) #| --> t |# (typep 42 'standard-object) #| --> nil |# 2015-11-22T02:49:35Z pjb: (subtypep 'a 'standard-object) #| --> t ; t |# 2015-11-22T02:50:29Z axion: i have a list of instances of the same type. they have a slot, CONNECTORS, that has a 2-element list as a value. i need to check if either of the 2 elements are eql to (there will always be just 1 of the 2), replacing it with if so, while keeping the other element intact/same position. repeat for each. what would be a good way to do this? 2015-11-22T02:50:33Z pjb: Therefore standard-object is the direct superclass of any class that has no superclass. standard-object is a class. Its class is standard-class: (class-of (find-class 'standard-object)) #| --> # |# 2015-11-22T02:50:57Z Bike: seems like a pretty simple loop 2015-11-22T02:51:34Z pjb: (dolist (obj objects) (setf (slot-value obj 'connectors) (substitute (slot-value obj 'connectors)))) 2015-11-22T02:51:46Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-22T02:52:41Z axion: SUBSTITUTE was what i was looking for, thanks 2015-11-22T02:55:36Z pjb: (defun rsubstitute (sequence new old &rest rest &key &allow-other-keys) (apply (function substitute) new old sequence rest)) 2015-11-22T02:56:01Z pjb: (define-modify-macro substitutef (sequence new old &rest rest &key &allow-other-keys) rsubstitute) 2015-11-22T02:56:23Z pjb: (dolist (obj objects) (substitutef (slot-value obj 'connectors) :test (function equal))) 2015-11-22T02:56:29Z pjb: should work (not tested). 2015-11-22T02:59:10Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:00:18Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:00:19Z axion: thanks pjb. this indeed fixed the bug it took me all day to track down. 2015-11-22T03:00:32Z pjb: Taht should be: (define-modify-macro substitutef (new old &rest rest) rsubstitute) 2015-11-22T03:02:06Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T03:10:50Z bklr is now known as BryK 2015-11-22T03:13:26Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-22T03:19:39Z ebrasca is now known as ebrasca-afk 2015-11-22T03:21:02Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:23:01Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:23:03Z James__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T03:23:29Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:24:40Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:27:43Z BryK quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-22T03:35:42Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:35:53Z blubjr` joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:36:07Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:36:10Z blubjr quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-22T03:36:12Z blubjr` is now known as blubjr 2015-11-22T03:36:14Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:36:14Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T03:36:15Z Colleen_ quit (Remote host 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joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:08:04Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:08:57Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:08:57Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:09:35Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:11:27Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-11-22T04:11:51Z drmeister: I keep getting people helpfully suggesting that I have a special value for NIL. 2015-11-22T04:12:03Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:12:29Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:12:42Z beach: I am not surprised. 2015-11-22T04:12:49Z beach: Who gave you that suggestion? 2015-11-22T04:14:11Z beach: I am guessing that would be people who already know something about how SBCL works. But I am only guessing. 2015-11-22T04:14:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:15:44Z drmeister: Oh - it's the same person, in comments on my blog. https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/tagged-pointers-and-immediate-fixnums-characters-and-single-floats-in-clasp/ 2015-11-22T04:16:14Z badkins quit 2015-11-22T04:17:30Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:17:57Z beach: Benson? 2015-11-22T04:18:21Z beach: Yes, I can tell that he is using arguments that were quite reasonable a few decades ago. 2015-11-22T04:18:48Z beach: "Having a special immediate value for NIL would make a NULL test faster,..." 2015-11-22T04:18:50Z drmeister: Yes. Do you know him? He seems to have a lot of CL experience. 2015-11-22T04:18:54Z beach: No. 2015-11-22T04:19:16Z beach: The problem here is that there are not very many tests for NULL. 2015-11-22T04:22:46Z drmeister: Yes, I'm going with that approach now. 2015-11-22T04:23:17Z beach: It looks like Benson was involved in Lucid Common Lisp. So I was wrong about knowing something about SBCL, and instead he already knows about some other implementation that was written some time ago. 2015-11-22T04:23:37Z beach: drmeister: You are an implementer. You can check how often NULL is called. 2015-11-22T04:23:43Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-22T04:24:11Z beach: That would be a very credible piece of information for or against special treatment of NIL. 2015-11-22T04:25:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:27:50Z drmeister: Relative to what? 2015-11-22T04:28:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:28:31Z beach: I am suggesting a benchmark (say using Cando) in which you check how much total execution time is taken up by calls to NULL. 2015-11-22T04:29:18Z beach: Not "calls" necessarily, but let's say tests to see whether a value is NIL. 2015-11-22T04:33:53Z beach: drmeister: Do you see what I mean? 2015-11-22T04:34:46Z drmeister: Yes, I see - it's going to be insignificant compared to everything else. 2015-11-22T04:35:09Z beach: That would be my guess. And that is apparently not what Benson thinks. 2015-11-22T04:36:17Z beach: I think his opinion has to do with several things. First, there is an idea that you are writing loops over lists, checking for NIL in each iteration. 2015-11-22T04:36:22Z beach: That is just not the case. 2015-11-22T04:36:33Z beach: You also need to test for ATOM or alternatively CONSP. 2015-11-22T04:36:49Z beach: You do that with tags, which is even faster than checking a long constant. 2015-11-22T04:37:31Z beach: Second, a few decades ago, Lisp programming was a lot about lists. Now, there is more emphasis on object orientation. 2015-11-22T04:38:01Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:38:02Z beach: So I think the role of tests for NIL is decreasing over time. 2015-11-22T04:38:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:39:12Z beach: But, again, I haven't done the benchmarks. It is just a hunch. 2015-11-22T04:39:24Z Fare is now known as Guest91207 2015-11-22T04:40:53Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:44:01Z ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy 2015-11-22T04:44:32Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T04:44:32Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:44:43Z Zhivago: Well, there's still all of that logic stuff. 2015-11-22T04:44:47Z Guest91207: hi 2015-11-22T04:44:51Z Guest91207 is now known as Fare 2015-11-22T04:45:13Z beach: Hello Fare. 2015-11-22T04:46:03Z Fare: still working on the next chapter 2015-11-22T04:46:09Z Fare: this one has to do with kernels 2015-11-22T04:46:14Z Fare: What is a kernel? 2015-11-22T04:46:21Z beach: Excellent! 2015-11-22T04:46:37Z beach: I thought about kernels recently. 2015-11-22T04:46:37Z Fare: Houyhnhnm computing systems sure as hell don't have "kernels" — or else, they have kernels everywhere. 2015-11-22T04:46:53Z beach: There are two reasonable definitions of "kernel". 2015-11-22T04:47:15Z beach: 1. A monolithic piece of code that handles system calls. 2015-11-22T04:47:26Z beach: [this is the one that only Yahoo computing has] 2015-11-22T04:47:46Z beach: 2. A collection of functions that handle system calls (and interrupts, and...) 2015-11-22T04:48:01Z beach: 2 is not necessarily monolithic. 2015-11-22T04:49:13Z runciter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-22T04:49:15Z beach: Already in 1964, Multics did not have a kernel is the sense of a monolithic piece of code. 2015-11-22T04:50:06Z beach: It was possible to replace system code dynamically. The next time this code was called, the dynamic linker would pick up the new version. 2015-11-22T04:50:52Z Fare: Yes, I see several "definitions" 2015-11-22T04:50:53Z beach: So perhaps Ngnghm read about Multics, and wonders why humans abandoned that approach. 2015-11-22T04:51:08Z Fare: whatever handles the initial resources 2015-11-22T04:51:16Z Fare: whatever handles the lowest-level resources 2015-11-22T04:51:22Z beach: Yeah. 2015-11-22T04:51:26Z Fare: whatever handles abstraction 2015-11-22T04:51:33Z Fare: machine abstraction 2015-11-22T04:51:47Z beach: So one needs to be a bit careful about saying "we should not have kernels". 2015-11-22T04:51:51Z Fare: whatever provides portable abstractions 2015-11-22T04:52:08Z Fare: My goal is Reductio ad claritatem 2015-11-22T04:52:18Z beach: According to my thinking, it is the monolithic aspect that is undesirable. 2015-11-22T04:52:25Z Fare: distinguish the concepts and reassemble them 2015-11-22T04:52:36Z Fare: and hint at how they could be assembled differently 2015-11-22T04:52:37Z beach: Yes, you do that very well. 2015-11-22T04:52:44Z beach: Much better than I could possibly do. 2015-11-22T04:53:11Z Fare: well, what YOU do, I cannot 2015-11-22T04:53:26Z beach: So we are complementary. Great! 2015-11-22T04:53:41Z Fare: I've failed at making myself into a language implementer for two decades 2015-11-22T04:53:55Z Fare: there's still hope, but not THAT much 2015-11-22T04:55:18Z beach: Fare: I am guessing it is because you are a "perfection-oriented" person (see my essay on the psychology of learning). People who come here regularly with a new language have a lot of enthusiasm, but I am guessing that most of them know very little about language design. 2015-11-22T04:55:24Z Fare: yay for division of labor 2015-11-22T04:55:36Z Fare: yes, I am way too obsessed with perfection 2015-11-22T04:56:02Z Fare: you know the story of the pottery class arbitrarily divided in two at the beginning of the semester? 2015-11-22T04:56:32Z beach: And you are trying to do something that is an order of magnitude harder than what I am doing. I am just implementing an existing specification; you are trying to design a new (perfect) language. 2015-11-22T04:56:44Z beach: Yes, I heard that one. 2015-11-22T04:56:44Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-22T04:56:48Z Fare: the teacher gives the same course, but tells the left half of the class: at the end of the semester, you'll show me your single best work, and will be judged according to it only. 2015-11-22T04:57:30Z Fare: to the right half of the class, he tells: at the end of the semester, I'll count the number of items you've completed, and will rate you according to that number only. 2015-11-22T04:57:40Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-22T04:58:27Z Fare: At the end of the semester, the group judged purely by quality had spent a lot of time thinking, the group judged by quantity a lot of time doing, and the quality ended up being significantly better in the group judged by quantity alone. 2015-11-22T04:58:55Z beach: Yeah, good stuff. 2015-11-22T04:59:51Z beach: I give a lot of thought to psychological phenomena. Not just because they are fascinating, but also in order to identify them in myself so that can reason about my reactions rather than just letting these phenomena control what I do. 2015-11-22T05:00:13Z kyfho_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T05:00:35Z Fare: the famous friedman / clinger papers were written as they were producing a complete new scheme implementation every week, using a different representation for this or that. 2015-11-22T05:00:57Z Fare: languages are for humans as well as machines... psychology matters 2015-11-22T05:01:30Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T05:01:52Z beach: I didn't know about those papers. Do you have a link? 2015-11-22T05:02:06Z Fare: I've been writing answers to an interview series that is more centered on philosophy, politics and economics... and I've been thinking at what was the common thread between that and my computing science thinking. 2015-11-22T05:02:17Z Fare: the answer is in this dynamic system thinking 2015-11-22T05:02:35Z zch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T05:03:10Z drmeister: beach: I see what you are saying. 2015-11-22T05:03:23Z Fare: confusing... probably meant friedman and wand 2015-11-22T05:03:38Z Fare: http://library.readscheme.org/page2.html 2015-11-22T05:03:58Z Fare: or clinger and wand? or pairs of the three? 2015-11-22T05:07:30Z Fare: a lot of what I write about the epistomology of economics applies to programming as a case of human action, with programs being automated reifications of some of the plans humans make. In French: http://www.quebecoislibre.org/15/151115-4.html 2015-11-22T05:08:10Z sfa quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-22T05:08:26Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:08:36Z beach: Impressive. 2015-11-22T05:09:10Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-22T05:09:28Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:09:35Z Fare: are you in .vn ? .fr ? 2015-11-22T05:10:11Z beach: Me? I am in Bordeaux. 2015-11-22T05:10:25Z pjb: Fare: I'm not sure about this note=quantity=>quality thing, because there are studies that shows that when you reward quality with money (which is like notes), then quantity increases and quality decreases. 2015-11-22T05:13:03Z arescorpio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T05:15:24Z beach: Fare: Last week, I gave a talk to a company in Gothenburg named HiQ (pronounced "high queue") entitled "My ideal operating system", in which "monolithic kernel" was one of the problems I cited. 2015-11-22T05:15:25Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:16:02Z beach: Fare: The slides are here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS/tree/master/Talks/HIQ 2015-11-22T05:16:54Z Fare: nice! 2015-11-22T05:17:16Z beach: I wasn't paid, so I could choose the subject. :) 2015-11-22T05:17:29Z Fare: pjb: that's different — learning vs producing 2015-11-22T05:17:34Z beach: Just to say that I recently gave some thought to the "kernel" problem. 2015-11-22T05:17:44Z Fare: pjb: they'll reach proficiency faster with quantity 2015-11-22T05:18:20Z Fare: but thereafter, they'll need to think and go slower to increase quality 2015-11-22T05:18:28Z Fare: so... a matter of priority 2015-11-22T05:18:45Z Fare: beach: Thanks! 2015-11-22T05:26:38Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:34:39Z beach: Fare: Do you get paid for your "think tank" activity, or do you also have a day job? 2015-11-22T05:35:54Z beach: ... or neither. 2015-11-22T05:39:39Z leb joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:42:31Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:42:49Z cmack left #lisp 2015-11-22T05:46:12Z Fare: :-) 2015-11-22T05:46:23Z Fare: The Koch brothers send me lots of money... not 2015-11-22T05:46:32Z Fare: I still work at Google. 2015-11-22T05:47:22Z Fare: Mostly I give money to think tanks. Last year, I gave some amount for charities that help north korean defectors. 2015-11-22T05:49:13Z Fare: I did accept a present from a Koch brother institute once... and foam suitcase handle protector. 2015-11-22T05:51:23Z runciter joined #lisp 2015-11-22T05:59:21Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-22T06:05:53Z beach: Heh! 2015-11-22T06:07:01Z beach: For some reason I thought you no longer worked for Google. 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I want to upgrade the server code to a newer version without restarting the Lisp image with the hope of 0 downtime. Let's assume I already did the testing and now I focus only on pushing it to production. What do you think of the following procedure?: 2015-11-22T13:22:48Z JuanDaugherty: will somebody die if it goes offline for a few minutes? 2015-11-22T13:23:16Z phoe_krk: JuanDaugherty: of course not. 2015-11-22T13:24:22Z phoe_krk: 1) compile new version of old functions/data structures within the lisp image under different names 2) pause all i/o (essentially pause the program) 3) rebind functions to new ones using (setf symbol-function) 4) convert old data to new data structures and rebind them 5) unpause all i/o (run the server again) 2015-11-22T13:25:19Z axe: what if you pause the server mid processing of a file? 2015-11-22T13:25:36Z Shinmera: How is this different from just shutting down gracefully and starting up again with the new version? 2015-11-22T13:25:43Z Shinmera: If you stop the I/O it's essentially down. 2015-11-22T13:25:55Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: I don't *stop* it, I pause its processing 2015-11-22T13:26:02Z Shinmera: And that works.. how? 2015-11-22T13:26:21Z phoe_krk: input is still accepted, sockets aren't closed down 2015-11-22T13:26:32Z Shinmera: So you can't upgrade the server. 2015-11-22T13:26:43Z phoe_krk: why can't I upgrade it? 2015-11-22T13:26:50Z Shinmera: Because you just said it has to accept inputs still 2015-11-22T13:27:09Z Shinmera: Some part of it has to keep on accepting inputs. 2015-11-22T13:27:29Z Shinmera: And that part you cannot upgrade. 2015-11-22T13:27:41Z phoe_krk: it is accepted but not *processed*; there is a part of it that grabs the input and puts it on hold until the server stops upgrading. 2015-11-22T13:27:59Z phoe_krk: at which point it's normally fed to the server. 2015-11-22T13:28:26Z phoe_krk: and the upgrade as I imagine it is an arbitrary number of defuns/defmacros and data structure manipulations. 2015-11-22T13:28:48Z phoe_krk: what I hope is, the proper upgrade will take so little time that clients won't disconnect during that time; only experience a lag. 2015-11-22T13:29:36Z phoe_krk: an inperceptible lag in an ideal situation. 2015-11-22T13:29:38Z Shinmera: And you're hoping that it'll just work flawlessly. 2015-11-22T13:30:07Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: I'm not hoping, I'm looking for ways to make it work. 2015-11-22T13:30:16Z Shinmera: You're always hoping. 2015-11-22T13:30:19Z Shinmera: There's no guarantee. 2015-11-22T13:30:31Z phoe_krk: Like with all upgrades. :P 2015-11-22T13:30:31Z Shinmera: So you need to have a plan for when things go south. 2015-11-22T13:30:40Z phoe_krk: Restart and go the usual way. 2015-11-22T13:30:41Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-22T13:30:49Z phoe_krk: That's the plan B. 2015-11-22T13:31:04Z Shinmera: What if your data structure upgrade screws your data? 2015-11-22T13:31:23Z phoe_krk: Grab a pre-upgrade backup, restart, go the usual way. 2015-11-22T13:31:57Z phoe_krk: But if I write the server in a functional way so it's essentially a state machine, I can simply pause the input processing, defun/defmacro/defdata/defeverything, unpause the input processing. 2015-11-22T13:32:01Z phoe_krk: That's the idea that I got. 2015-11-22T13:32:37Z phoe_krk: And if I compile everything beforehand, there's no compilation delay *during* the upgrade. I only setf symbol-function to new ones. 2015-11-22T13:32:44Z phoe_krk: to new functions, I mean. 2015-11-22T13:32:50Z Shinmera: CL is still mostly a sequential language. 2015-11-22T13:33:04Z Shinmera: Stateless isn't exactly a thing that people go for. 2015-11-22T13:33:13Z phoe_krk: CL is the language I want it to be. 2015-11-22T13:33:26Z pjb: phoe_krk: you don't want to stop requests being processed, open connections, etc. 2015-11-22T13:33:26Z phoe_krk: I know I'm going to get thrashed by Life itself for that point of view, but hell, why not. 2015-11-22T13:33:42Z pjb: phoe_krk: if you start a session with one version of the protocol, you cannot continue it with another version. 2015-11-22T13:33:47Z Shinmera shrugs 2015-11-22T13:34:02Z Shinmera: Seems like a load of complication ahead of time to me. 2015-11-22T13:34:07Z pjb: phoe_krk: so basically, what you need is to have the two versions of the server present and functional at the same time. 2015-11-22T13:34:22Z phoe_krk: pjb: and then just transparently switch to the other? 2015-11-22T13:34:23Z pjb: phoe_krk: then, you only switch to the new version for the NEW connections. 2015-11-22T13:34:24Z Shinmera: Get your thing running and see how much of a pain it is to implement your upgrading scheme afterwards. 2015-11-22T13:34:46Z pjb: phoe_krk: then you can GC the old version when all the currently running sessions are finished. 2015-11-22T13:35:20Z phoe_krk: brb 2015-11-22T13:35:34Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T13:36:53Z chuchana joined #lisp 2015-11-22T13:37:42Z phoe_krk: back 2015-11-22T13:40:05Z pjb: phoe_krk: for upgradability, the most important thing is the main loop. You will want to put most of it in a function declared notinline. 2015-11-22T13:40:13Z arnaudga: Hello, I'm learning lisp. Which debugger will you advice me ? I use Debian Jessie and woul like to use main section if possible 2015-11-22T13:40:23Z pjb: arnaudga: slime. 2015-11-22T13:41:06Z phoe_krk: pjb: the protocol trouble can be avoided with a careful protocol design. 2015-11-22T13:41:07Z pjb: arnaudga: but if you don't want to use slime (and therefore emacs), then I'd advise clisp, which has the most newbie friendly debugger. But then, debian doesn't distribute clisp. 2015-11-22T13:41:27Z arnaudga: I like emacs 2015-11-22T13:41:28Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: seen this? https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/issues/24 2015-11-22T13:41:57Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I have no idea what's causing this. 2015-11-22T13:42:38Z arnaudga: Curently I need to be able to run step by step my code 2015-11-22T13:42:40Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: the bindings can't possibly be a problem since there's nothing in them that could break. The example code seems to be correct as well. 2015-11-22T13:42:42Z pjb: arnaudga: install slime with quicklisp. 2015-11-22T13:42:51Z pjb: arnaudga: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 2015-11-22T13:42:59Z arnaudga: OK I'll have a look, thanks 2015-11-22T13:43:19Z phoe_krk: pjb: I'll just write a PoC of my idea when I get the time. 2015-11-22T13:43:40Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-22T13:44:39Z scymtym_: pjb: are you sure debian doesn't distribute clisp? i think i installed it using the package manager and https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=clisp seems to suggest the same. 2015-11-22T13:45:06Z pjb: At least, there was discussions of removing it from the debian distribution, because it's currently lacking a maintainer. 2015-11-22T13:45:36Z scymtym_: i see, that is of course possible 2015-11-22T13:48:48Z chuchana: Hi! I am trying to install Clasp 0.4.0 on OS X. It currently fails because I cannot download Alexandria: 2015-11-22T13:48:48Z chuchana: ——————————————————————————————————— 2015-11-22T13:48:48Z chuchana: fatal: unable to connect to common-lisp.net: 2015-11-22T13:48:48Z chuchana: common-lisp.net[0: 148.251.248.130]: errno=Connection refused 2015-11-22T13:48:48Z chuchana: common-lisp.net[1: 2a01:4f8:200:4310::30]: errno=No route to host 2015-11-22T13:48:49Z chuchana: Clone of 'git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git' into submodule path 'ext/alexandria' failed 2015-11-22T13:48:49Z chuchana: Failed to recurse into submodule path 'src/lisp/modules/asdf' 2015-11-22T13:48:50Z chuchana: ——————————————————————————————————— 2015-11-22T13:48:51Z chuchana: I tried to download the archive directly, but the link on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/tree/master only leads to a page containing this: 2015-11-22T13:48:52Z chuchana: ——————————————————————————————————— 2015-11-22T13:48:52Z chuchana: {"RepoPath":"/srv/repos/gitlab/repositories/alexandria/alexandria.git","ArchivePrefix":"alexandria-master-5a17c072970cf50213f7f896c40e6e640638391f","ArchivePath":"/opt/gitlab/embedded/service/gitlab-rails/tmp/repositories/alexandria.git/alexandria-master-5a17c072970cf50213f7f896c40e6e640638391f.zip","CommitId":"5a17c072970cf50213f7f896c40e6e640638391f"} 2015-11-22T13:48:53Z chuchana: ——————————————————————————————————— 2015-11-22T13:48:54Z chuchana: Then I remembered I could just grab it from my QuickLisp folder, but I do not know where I should put the folder. 2015-11-22T13:49:31Z hitecnologys: chuchana: don't do that anymore. 2015-11-22T13:49:34Z hitecnologys: chuchana: don't paste here. 2015-11-22T13:49:45Z chuchana: Ok 2015-11-22T13:49:48Z hitecnologys: chuchana: there's paste.lisp.org. 2015-11-22T13:50:04Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T13:50:25Z hitecnologys: chuchana: are you sure you can reach 148.251.248.130? 2015-11-22T13:50:29Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2015-11-22T13:51:07Z chuchana: hitecnologys: I'll keep that in mind 2015-11-22T13:51:12Z Shinmera: chuchana: Also, please ask #clasp for Clasp specific problems. 2015-11-22T13:51:14Z chuchana: hitecnologys: yes, I can ping it 2015-11-22T13:51:41Z hitecnologys: chuchana: maybe try fetching alexandria again? 2015-11-22T13:52:31Z chuchana: Shinmera: Ok, I'll go to #clasp. 2015-11-22T13:53:39Z Shinmera: chuchana: Most people in here will not know anything about clasp due to its relative infancy, but there's usually a couple of people around in #clasp that can help you. 2015-11-22T13:54:17Z chuchana: hitecnologys: I have tried a couple of times and just tried again. 2015-11-22T13:54:46Z hitecnologys: chuchana: I see. I was just thing that maybe something went wrong the first time but if the problem is persistent, then follow Shinmera's advice. 2015-11-22T13:54:59Z hitecnologys: s/thing/thinking/ 2015-11-22T13:57:47Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: how do you generate documentation for your projects? From what I can tell, it uses existing code to generate HTML file so if you checkout to gh-pages, you can't access code anymore. Do you just copy-paste or there's some kind of dark magic that I don't know of? 2015-11-22T13:58:23Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The doc page is always included as an about.html on master. 2015-11-22T13:58:33Z Shinmera: It's generated by staple. 2015-11-22T13:59:00Z Shinmera: And I then just sync the file over to gh-pages when I update it on master. 2015-11-22T13:59:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-22T13:59:34Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I see. 2015-11-22T13:59:38Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: makes sense. 2015-11-22T14:14:04Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:14:12Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-22T14:14:43Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T14:17:18Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: err, is it normal that GENERATE signals "The values #() is not of type (AND (VECTOR PLUMP-DOM:CHILD-NODE) (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY))"? 2015-11-22T14:18:32Z Shinmera: No 2015-11-22T14:19:02Z Shinmera: Are you on latest? 2015-11-22T14:19:10Z hitecnologys: Should be. 2015-11-22T14:19:16Z hitecnologys: I'm using one in quicklisp. 2015-11-22T14:19:29Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:20:15Z hitecnologys: Are there any files I need to write in order to get staple to work? 2015-11-22T14:20:19Z Shinmera: Can't say I can reproduce that using any of my projects. 2015-11-22T14:20:21Z Shinmera: No 2015-11-22T14:20:28Z hitecnologys: Hmm. 2015-11-22T14:20:47Z Shinmera: What you're seeing seems like a Plump type error, but I don't know why that would happen without having the stack trace and a way to reproduce it 2015-11-22T14:20:59Z hitecnologys: I'm using this exact code: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/hive-task. Can you try running staple on it? 2015-11-22T14:21:44Z ggole: (typep #() '(not simple-array)) => nil, so it's probably that 2015-11-22T14:21:54Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: will give stack trace in a minute. 2015-11-22T14:22:21Z Heranort joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:22:46Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: there you go http://paste.lisp.org/+3FQR 2015-11-22T14:22:46Z Heranort quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T14:23:35Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I'm getting a different error. 2015-11-22T14:23:56Z Shinmera: I'm a bit caught up in things right now. I'll take a look at it later, ok? 2015-11-22T14:24:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sure, I'm in no hurry. 2015-11-22T14:24:18Z hitecnologys: Can play games and stuff. 2015-11-22T14:24:29Z hitecnologys: Since I've done enough work for today anyway. 2015-11-22T14:24:39Z Shinmera: Enjoy :) 2015-11-22T14:25:07Z hitecnologys: Probably need to make some more coffee. Be back in a minute. 2015-11-22T14:25:34Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, thanks. 2015-11-22T14:29:23Z Lord_of_- is now known as Lord_of_Life 2015-11-22T14:29:31Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T14:29:31Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:29:31Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T14:29:31Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:32:09Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:33:17Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T14:33:17Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:34:13Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:34:22Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-22T14:35:30Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T14:43:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:51:07Z chuchana left #lisp 2015-11-22T14:51:47Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T14:52:07Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:54:10Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:54:15Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-22T14:54:30Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T14:54:36Z 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2015-11-22T17:13:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:14:19Z Bike: Oh. (defun foo (&optional (bar nil bar-given-p)) (cond ((not bar-given-p) ...) ...)) 2015-11-22T17:18:10Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T17:19:58Z otjura: huh? doesn't work. also doesn't look so elegant. 2015-11-22T17:20:10Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T17:20:54Z oceanpollen: that works just fine 2015-11-22T17:21:18Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:22:15Z otjura: http://pastebin.com/t1r5PXr4 2015-11-22T17:22:23Z Bike: so, you didn't do what i did 2015-11-22T17:22:30Z Bike: mine says: "&optional (bar nil bar-given-p)" 2015-11-22T17:23:07Z Bike: you can't just skip the grouping, that's what does it 2015-11-22T17:23:30Z Bike: &optional foo has a more expansive form as &optional (varname default bindedness-varname) 2015-11-22T17:23:40Z oceanpollen: you'll never get to (not phrase-given-p) though as you're defaulting it to NIL , and (listp nil) => t 2015-11-22T17:23:42Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:24:07Z blubjr: it doesnt choke on nil in the middle of a lambda last ? 2015-11-22T17:24:14Z clique left #lisp 2015-11-22T17:24:22Z Bike: nil isn't in the middle of the lambda list 2015-11-22T17:24:35Z Bike: well, it is in otjura's code, w hich hopefully gives a compile error 2015-11-22T17:24:37Z blubjr: it is in their version 2015-11-22T17:24:39Z blubjr: ya 2015-11-22T17:24:45Z oceanpollen: I mean after he fixes that of course 2015-11-22T17:25:09Z otjura: it gives compile error when I move nil to last (defun generate (&optional (phrase phrase-given-p nil)) 2015-11-22T17:25:29Z oceanpollen: NIL names a defined constant, and cannot be used as a local variable. 2015-11-22T17:26:01Z Bike: otjura: could you like... write code corresponding to what i wrote...? 2015-11-22T17:26:05Z oceanpollen: yes, it does that for the same reason 2015-11-22T17:26:16Z Bike: &optional (bar nil bar-given-p) 2015-11-22T17:26:18Z Bike: here, just copy paste 2015-11-22T17:26:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:29:06Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:29:19Z otjura: it still doesn't work in that format. it returns NIL. besides, what's the deal with giving it phantom variable which doesn't exist anywhere? can't I simply check against wether phrase was given? 2015-11-22T17:29:59Z Bike: it doesn't work for the reason oceanpollen gave you, namely, (listp NIL) => T 2015-11-22T17:30:00Z agumonkey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T17:30:05Z agumonkey_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:30:17Z agumonkey_ is now known as agumonkey 2015-11-22T17:30:23Z Bike: what the heck is a "phantom variable". there are two perfectly good variables in the lambda list 2015-11-22T17:30:48Z oleo: wel call'em anaphors 2015-11-22T17:30:49Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:30:51Z Bike: one is phrase, one is whether there was a phase provided 2015-11-22T17:30:56Z oceanpollen: (defun a (&optional (b 'c d)) (list b d)) (a) => (c nil) (a 1) => (1 t) 2015-11-22T17:31:46Z otjura: I'm more confused than I should be. :D 2015-11-22T17:31:52Z oceanpollen: 'c is the default value of b. d is true if if an argument is provided. 2015-11-22T17:32:20Z oceanpollen: (a 'c) => (c t) . it's true even if the argument is the same as the default. 2015-11-22T17:32:50Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T17:34:29Z otjura: okay. so moving it as first condition fixed it. 2015-11-22T17:35:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:35:44Z oceanpollen: now that you've done that, why don't you just make the default 'sentence ? :) 2015-11-22T17:36:53Z otjura: increasing confusion: how could (listp phrase) evaluate and return NIL when no phrase which is list was given? 2015-11-22T17:37:08Z oceanpollen: because you provided a default of NIL, which is a list 2015-11-22T17:37:42Z oceanpollen: (listp phrase) evaluates to t -- it's (mappend ...) that then evaluates to nil 2015-11-22T17:38:19Z otjura: yes I know '() == NIL but hang on, I'm not giving any atom so why does it imply it was empty list? 2015-11-22T17:38:30Z Bike: nil is the empty list 2015-11-22T17:38:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:39:44Z oceanpollen: phrase is nil by default, because you told it to be nil by default. that's what the nil in (&optional (phrase nil phrase-given-p)) is about. 2015-11-22T17:40:27Z otjura: aha! thanks a lot! 2015-11-22T17:41:29Z oceanpollen: so I suggest having 'sentence as a default instead, since GENERATE always calls itself with that argument when one isn't provided. 2015-11-22T17:42:28Z areinisch joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:43:39Z otjura: now I see. the (&optional (foo p bar)) format is alien to me. so that is the one way of checking wether optional argument was given? it's pretty awkward. 2015-11-22T17:44:27Z lomcovack joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:44:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2015-11-22T17:45:01Z Bike: clhs 3.4 2015-11-22T17:45:01Z specbot: Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_d.htm 2015-11-22T17:45:03Z Bike: clhs 3.4.1 2015-11-22T17:45:03Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 2015-11-22T17:45:16Z Bike: er, sorry. i meant 3.4.1 and 3.4.1.2 2015-11-22T17:45:17Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T17:45:18Z oceanpollen: *shrug*. it's just a list in place of a variable name. seems like a natural enough way to ask for more options, and to name them. 2015-11-22T17:45:18Z Bike: clhs 3.4.1.2 2015-11-22T17:45:18Z specbot: Specifiers for optional parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dab.htm 2015-11-22T17:45:21Z Bike: there. all is explained 2015-11-22T17:46:20Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-22T17:46:41Z otjura: now much simplified without phantom variables http://pastebin.com/yQKT5Pvm 2015-11-22T17:46:58Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-22T17:47:15Z Bike: what is a phantom variable 2015-11-22T17:47:15Z otjura: anaphors, that is 2015-11-22T17:47:42Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:47:58Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T17:48:03Z Bike: it's not anaphoric, you're binding it right there... 2015-11-22T17:48:21Z Bike: well, whatever. so you don't really need to know whether it was passed. that works. 2015-11-22T17:48:41Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:49:13Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:49:14Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:49:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-22T17:57:47Z lomcovack quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-22T17:58:00Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T18:02:19Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Can I reference #:|foo| within that body somehow? 2015-11-22T19:40:41Z mrottenkolber: (defmacro (&body body &aux (foo-sym (make-symbol "foo"))) 2015-11-22T19:40:42Z mrottenkolber: `(let (,foo-sym) ,@body)) 2015-11-22T19:41:33Z Bike: nope. 2015-11-22T19:41:38Z mrottenkolber: E.g. what's the difference between the above and the same using GENSYM instead? 2015-11-22T19:42:01Z Bike: gensym puts a number on the end of the name. 2015-11-22T19:42:06Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-22T19:42:25Z Bike: which is a bit convenient for human reading. 2015-11-22T19:43:29Z mrottenkolber: How is it convenient? (honest question) 2015-11-22T19:44:55Z Bike: well, say you have (let ((foo (gensym "FOO"))) `(let (,foo) ,(let ((foo (gensym "FOO"))) (... ,foo ...)))), those are different symbols but if you made them with make-symbol they'd look the same (have the same name) 2015-11-22T19:44:58Z otjura quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T19:45:28Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T19:45:30Z mrottenkolber: I see 2015-11-22T19:46:11Z mrottenkolber: Thanks. 2015-11-22T19:46:52Z BryK joined #lisp 2015-11-22T19:48:03Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T19:48:42Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-22T19:48:47Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-22T19:49:14Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T19:52:15Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T19:54:18Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-22T19:57:27Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-22T19:58:20Z BryK quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-22T19:59:52Z rwiker joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:00:50Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:02:32Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:03:57Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:04:07Z rwiker quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T20:04:14Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-11-22T20:06:00Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:06:00Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T20:06:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T20:06:10Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:06:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T20:06:10Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:09:15Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:12:26Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:15:52Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:15:57Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:17:14Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:19:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2015-11-22T20:20:10Z cagmz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:20:37Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:20:48Z Raimondii is now known as Raimondi 2015-11-22T20:21:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:21:44Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:22:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:27:04Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-22T20:30:39Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-22T20:30:54Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:31:43Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:33:19Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T20:33:27Z erjoalgo: i need to write a "report" and show some pretty bar graphs EG comparing performance across variables. is there a good library for this? does anyone actually use a matlab-lisp interface? 2015-11-22T20:33:56Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:35:08Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:35:24Z AeroNotix: erjoalgo: gnuplot? 2015-11-22T20:35:51Z erjoalgo: ok. that should work 2015-11-22T20:36:09Z erjoalgo: there's also cl-octave. but this might be what i need 2015-11-22T20:36:22Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:37:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:37:50Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-22T20:41:32Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:44:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:45:12Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:45:55Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:46:41Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:47:30Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:47:42Z phoe_krk: ugh 2015-11-22T20:47:47Z phoe_krk: time to write a macro. 2015-11-22T20:47:56Z phoe_krk: and I can't write macros just yet. 2015-11-22T20:48:40Z sivoais quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:48:41Z blubjr: what macro do you need to write 2015-11-22T20:49:18Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-22T20:49:52Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:49:57Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-22T20:50:07Z phoe_krk: blubjr: I'm working on a nickname package, something that will allow you to define a nickname "al" -> "alexandria" and type $al:doplist that will evaluate to alexandria:doplist 2015-11-22T20:50:29Z phoe_krk: right now I'm working on the $ read macro function, and at the same time understanding read macros 2015-11-22T20:53:20Z phoe_krk: step by step then... I need to write something that will read characters until it meets :. 2015-11-22T20:54:12Z blubjr: you know that you can add package nicknames with rename-package 2015-11-22T20:54:36Z rtra` joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:54:40Z rtra` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:55:16Z phoe_krk: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm 2015-11-22T20:55:31Z phoe_krk: "The old name and all of the old nicknames of package are eliminated and are replaced by new-name and new-nicknames." <= that's one big problem 2015-11-22T20:55:43Z phoe_krk: "The consequences are undefined if new-name or any new-nickname conflicts with any existing package names." <= that's another big problem 2015-11-22T20:56:28Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:56:36Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T20:56:38Z phoe_krk: I don't want to rename a package, I want to be able to refer to it by a nickname that I set within my code. 2015-11-22T20:56:52Z phoe_krk: In other words, rename-package is way too destructive. 2015-11-22T20:57:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-22T20:57:06Z blubjr: (defun add-nicknames (package &rest nicknames) 2015-11-22T20:57:07Z blubjr: (rename-package package package (append nicknames (package-nicknames package)))) ? 2015-11-22T20:57:20Z blubjr: the old name is eliminated so the new name doesn't conflict with it 2015-11-22T20:58:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:01:02Z blubjr: its only a problem if the nickname you want to give it is already taken by another package 2015-11-22T21:01:47Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:02:07Z phoe_krk: (rename-package :alexandria :alexandria (append (list "alex") (package-nicknames :alexandria))) 2015-11-22T21:02:07Z yrdz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T21:02:19Z phoe_krk: this violates a lock. I don't want to do that. 2015-11-22T21:03:45Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:03:56Z phoe_krk: I want to use a reader macro because it doesn't mess with *anything* in the existing packages, and making nicknames the CLHS-defined way sadly *messes* with existing packages. 2015-11-22T21:04:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:04:12Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:04:23Z blubjr: ok 2015-11-22T21:05:16Z tulloch joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:08:15Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:08:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:12:16Z phoe_krk: ...why the hell do I need to eval set-macro-character each time I change something in the function it points to, otherwise it doesn't register the changes. 2015-11-22T21:12:44Z Bike: that question does not make sense to me, could you provide more context? 2015-11-22T21:13:05Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:13:29Z Bike: Oh, like, you have (set-macro-character character function) and every time you redefine function you need to set-macro-character again? 2015-11-22T21:13:53Z phoe_krk: Bike: 1) I write a function and C-c it. 2) I call set-macro-character #\$ #'function. 3) I change something in the function and C-c it. 4) The $ macro character does *not* register the change. 2015-11-22T21:14:02Z phoe_krk: Exactly what you said, too. 2015-11-22T21:14:15Z Whymind quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T21:14:44Z Bike: Right. Because #'f is the actual function f at that time, which is not altered by redefinition. (defun foo) basically does (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ...)), so it's a new function, the old one sticks around. 2015-11-22T21:14:52Z Bike: long story short, do (set-macro-character #\$ 'function) instead. 2015-11-22T21:15:12Z phoe_krk: Ooh. ' instead of #'. 2015-11-22T21:15:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T21:15:16Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:15:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-22T21:15:16Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:15:22Z phoe_krk: Because #' takes the lambda and ' takes the symbol. 2015-11-22T21:15:33Z Bike: it means it'll force a lookup of the function by name every time. 2015-11-22T21:15:37Z phoe_krk: Works. Thanks. 2015-11-22T21:15:49Z phoe_krk: I'll change it to #' when I finish playing with it, then. 2015-11-22T21:16:29Z areinisch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:17:10Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T21:18:55Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:19:13Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:20:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-22T21:20:38Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:21:47Z NeverDie_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T21:22:49Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:23:00Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:24:29Z eni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T21:30:39Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T21:31:00Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:33:47Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:33:52Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:34:26Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-22T21:34:34Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-22T21:35:28Z phoe_krk: Okay, I almost got what I want. Let's say I have a string "ALEXANDRIA:DOPLIST". How do I change it into a symbol? 2015-11-22T21:36:09Z brdk joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:36:28Z brdk left #lisp 2015-11-22T21:37:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:42:58Z Bike: parse out the package and name components, then do (find-symbol symbol-name symbol-package-name). 2015-11-22T21:43:17Z Bike: or just throw it to read-from-string, which will do the same thing. 2015-11-22T21:45:47Z phoe_krk: read-from-string works, thanks. one more thing done. 2015-11-22T21:46:38Z tulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T21:48:55Z phoe_krk: holy cow 2015-11-22T21:48:58Z phoe_krk: did, did I 2015-11-22T21:48:59Z phoe_krk: just 2015-11-22T21:49:04Z phoe_krk: make it work? 2015-11-22T21:54:39Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-22T21:57:21Z namespace: The general replacement for a do loop would be a tail call recursive function right? 2015-11-22T21:58:46Z namespace is trying to learn Lisp and stuck because he knows there are supposed to be 'better' flow control methods than loops available but hasn't been told exactly what they are, is aware of stuff like mapcar but it doesn't seem applicable 2015-11-22T21:59:34Z phoe_krk: namespace: not really "better". Recursion isn't "better" or "worse" than loops because when properly interpreted by a compiler they end up being the same in the end. 2015-11-22T22:00:10Z namespace: Point. But I keep hearing that about various language constructs and some ways of representing things are better than others. 2015-11-22T22:00:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:00:18Z phoe_krk: Define "better". 2015-11-22T22:02:31Z phoe_krk: CL generally allows you to do both. Tail call optimization is supported by a majority of Lisp implementation nowadays; it's a de facto standard and only a few exceptions exist. On the other hand, CL has a really versatile loop macro that allows you to do a great lot of things in a concise manner. 2015-11-22T22:03:53Z phoe_krk: Let me put it this way: what are you trying to do that you need a flow control structure for? 2015-11-22T22:03:56Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:05:05Z namespace: Split words in a vector of chars. 2015-11-22T22:05:09Z namespace: By spaces. 2015-11-22T22:05:18Z namespace: (Well actually all whitespace, but mostly spaces.) 2015-11-22T22:06:10Z phoe_krk: You have a vector of chars, correct? 2015-11-22T22:06:17Z phoe_krk: And you want to have... what exactly? 2015-11-22T22:06:47Z namespace: List of words. 2015-11-22T22:06:54Z phoe_krk: Hmm. 2015-11-22T22:06:54Z namespace: Because I'm counting the words to make a frequency table. 2015-11-22T22:08:20Z nyef: ... Why do you need a control-flow structure for that, as opposed to, say, CL-PPCRE:SPLIT-TO-STRINGS or whatever it's called? 2015-11-22T22:08:32Z namespace: nyef: That exists? 2015-11-22T22:08:39Z namespace: (Of course it exists, duh.) 2015-11-22T22:08:49Z nyef: Now you know! 2015-11-22T22:08:55Z namespace: Well. 2015-11-22T22:09:08Z phoe_krk: nyef: there is one thing you should know about Lisp that I experience almost every day I play with it. 2015-11-22T22:09:13Z namespace: I'm still curious about the answer to the question, since I'm sure it will be a recurring problem. 2015-11-22T22:09:41Z namespace: (Though thankfully not a *recursive* problem.) 2015-11-22T22:09:44Z _death: there's also split-sequence.. but yes, if you wanted to write it yourself you could define a split operator in terms of loops/recursion/whatever and there's your "better" method 2015-11-22T22:09:44Z namespace: (That could get confusing.) 2015-11-22T22:10:01Z phoe_krk: If it's a simple problem, somebody probably already wrote 90% of your solution. 2015-11-22T22:10:08Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:10:44Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-22T22:10:57Z nyef: phoe_krk: Odds are two or three people did, and NONE of the solutions are what you're looking for. 2015-11-22T22:10:57Z phoe_krk: But yes, I was about to suggest CL-UTILITIES:SPLIT-SEQUENCE myself. 2015-11-22T22:11:24Z phoe_krk: nyef: then the old Lisp proverb goes, it is not done until someone does it. 2015-11-22T22:11:41Z _death: namespace: also, this reminded me of http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/ss-revisited.txt 2015-11-22T22:14:43Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T22:14:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:15:16Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:17:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T22:19:04Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:19:24Z phoe_krk: pjb: remember us talking about that nickname tool? I think I just made something that works, http://paste.lisp.org/display/160416 2015-11-22T22:20:25Z dim: what's the story around split-sequence and cl-utilities:split-sequence then? 2015-11-22T22:20:27Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:20:43Z phoe_krk: dim: story? 2015-11-22T22:20:56Z dim: seems like it's about the same thing, why maintain both? 2015-11-22T22:21:50Z blubjr: cg phoe_krk 2015-11-22T22:22:07Z phoe_krk: blubjr: thanks :3 if you have a while, please give it a quick test 2015-11-22T22:22:35Z phoe_krk: generally (defnickname "usocket" "u") should allow you to go ($u:socket-connect ...) 2015-11-22T22:23:10Z phoe_krk: this will need a slime helper later on, so $u:socket-connect actually shows up as usocket:socket-connect 2015-11-22T22:23:17Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-22T22:23:22Z sid_cypher: are there better functions for integer division than FLOOR? 2015-11-22T22:23:25Z phoe_krk: it works, just slime has no idea what it is and how to treat it 2015-11-22T22:23:41Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: define "better" 2015-11-22T22:23:48Z phoe_krk: what do you want the function to do? 2015-11-22T22:24:15Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: divide seconds into minutes, those into hours, those into days 2015-11-22T22:24:52Z phoe_krk: generally speaking, within Lisp you have FLOOR, CEILING, TRUNCATE and ROUND. 2015-11-22T22:24:53Z sid_cypher: multiple-value-bind results and setf into right places 2015-11-22T22:25:22Z phoe_krk: *How* do you want these to be divided? 2015-11-22T22:25:32Z phoe_krk: What will 89 seconds divide into? 90 second? 91 seconds? 2015-11-22T22:26:07Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: 29 seconds, 1 minute. TRUNCATE looks great. 2015-11-22T22:27:01Z _death: phoe_krk: you may be interested in Kaz Kylheku's PKG read-macro: http://www.kylheku.com/cgit/lisp-snippets/tree/pkg.lisp 2015-11-22T22:27:58Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:28:10Z cyraxjoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:28:31Z phoe_krk: _death: ...you know it's either Lisp or Perl when documentation is longer than the program itself 2015-11-22T22:29:08Z blubjr: phoe_krk: nmakunbound doesn't seem to do anything 2015-11-22T22:29:17Z phoe_krk: blubjr: let me see 2015-11-22T22:29:50Z blubjr: oh sorry i see 2015-11-22T22:29:59Z blubjr: it wants the actual package name 2015-11-22T22:30:06Z blubjr: i expected it would want the nickname 2015-11-22T22:30:38Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T22:30:54Z phoe_krk: oh, hm 2015-11-22T22:31:01Z phoe_krk: maybe it could accept either 2015-11-22T22:31:31Z phoe_krk: let me work on it a while more 2015-11-22T22:32:13Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:34:29Z phoe_krk: I think I fixed it 2015-11-22T22:34:30Z phoe_krk: let me annotate 2015-11-22T22:34:45Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:35:15Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160416#2 2015-11-22T22:35:36Z phoe_krk: I just added an or inside nmakunbound's unless 2015-11-22T22:36:26Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:40:04Z blubjr: why is it written with member 2015-11-22T22:41:54Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:41:57Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-22T22:43:15Z phoe_krk: blubjr: ...you're right, I think a simple equal would work 2015-11-22T22:43:15Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:43:16Z phoe_krk: let me check 2015-11-22T22:44:16Z phoe_krk: yes, you're right. 2015-11-22T22:44:40Z phoe_krk: unless (or (equal key string) (equal value string)) works 2015-11-22T22:46:49Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160417 thank you for the tip with the integer division functions 2015-11-22T22:46:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:47:14Z phoe_krk: blubjr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160416#3 2015-11-22T22:47:15Z grees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:47:28Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: not a problem 2015-11-22T22:47:31Z phoe_krk bows 2015-11-22T22:47:38Z phoe_krk: keep on lisping. 2015-11-22T22:47:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:48:27Z fcbr quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-22T22:48:55Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: that short nickname code seems super useful. will it be in a package? can i use it? 2015-11-22T22:49:24Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:49:27Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: I finished it ten minutes ago, let me think for a while XD 2015-11-22T22:50:39Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: sure, i'll make a note to try it later and give you feedback :) 2015-11-22T22:51:09Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: I have no idea how I should license it, I gave it a FreeBSD license 2015-11-22T22:51:26Z phoe_krk: once I get a bit of feedback that says it doesn't break anything, I'll try to publish it somewhere 2015-11-22T22:51:39Z phoe_krk: even though I have no idea how to publish packages yet 2015-11-22T22:51:43Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: i use most permissive MIT for my stuff 2015-11-22T22:52:34Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: http://choosealicense.com/licenses/ says that FreeBSD and MIT are equivalent 2015-11-22T22:53:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-22T22:54:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T22:55:12Z blubjr: phoe_krk: you should use ~s instead of \"~a\" 2015-11-22T22:55:14Z sid_cypher: yeah, i've compared the text, no significant difference. 2015-11-22T22:55:42Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-22T22:58:44Z phoe_krk: blubjr: you're correct, applying the change 2015-11-22T22:59:11Z phoe_krk: blubjr: within defnickname you say? 2015-11-22T23:00:02Z blubjr: thats where i saw it but generally 2015-11-22T23:00:02Z phoe_krk: and print-nicknames? 2015-11-22T23:00:08Z blubjr: let lisp do things for you :) 2015-11-22T23:00:09Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-11-22T23:00:22Z phoe_krk: I'm still new at lisp and I'm learning how it can do things for me :P 2015-11-22T23:00:30Z mach joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:00:35Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:01:45Z phoe_krk: blubjr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160416#4 2015-11-22T23:07:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:10:09Z phoe_krk: pjb: (defnickname "com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum" "c") I dare you 2015-11-22T23:11:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:12:40Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:13:47Z areinisch joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:14:31Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-22T23:15:15Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:15:23Z blubjr: phoe_krk: you don't need the then in nickname-reader, if you just have for char = (read-char stream) it will re-evaluate (read-char stream) on each iteration anyway 2015-11-22T23:16:36Z phoe_krk: blubjr: thanks, removed the line 2015-11-22T23:17:13Z whiteline_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-22T23:17:41Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:19:17Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:23:27Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T23:27:13Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:27:13Z lemonpepper24 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-22T23:28:57Z Bike: M-. sb-ext:typexpand -> Lock on package SB-IMPL violated when interning !DEFINE-HASH-CACHE while in package SB-KERNEL. That is... something. 2015-11-22T23:34:44Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:35:48Z cyraxjoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:42:21Z {Leo} joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:43:31Z agumonkey quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-22T23:43:36Z agumonkey_ joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:43:53Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:44:00Z agumonkey_ is now known as agumonkey 2015-11-22T23:48:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:48:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-22T23:51:17Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:51:37Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-22T23:51:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:51:50Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:53:43Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:54:50Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-22T23:56:59Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-22T23:57:14Z sid_cypher: i just wrote my craziest format control string http://paste.lisp.org/display/160421 2015-11-22T23:58:34Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: welcome to the darker side 2015-11-22T23:59:50Z BabyBee joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:00:00Z sid_cypher laughs villanously 2015-11-23T00:00:51Z phoe_krk: this is one of the many examples of something that's both "Lisp doing things for you" and "arcane magic" 2015-11-23T00:00:55Z sid_cypher: looked it up, villainously is a word. *mwahahahaaaa* 2015-11-23T00:01:09Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:02:36Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:03:20Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:08:05Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T00:09:59Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:12:19Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:12:20Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:19:14Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:19:34Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:21:10Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T00:21:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:21:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:22:23Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:23:19Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:25:08Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T00:26:30Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-23T00:27:21Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:31:22Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-23T00:34:24Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:37:38Z Bike quit (Quit: finally) 2015-11-23T00:43:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:48:27Z {Leo} quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.72 •) 2015-11-23T00:55:07Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:55:08Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:55:48Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:56:06Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:56:19Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-23T00:56:26Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:57:31Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-23T00:59:09Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T00:59:15Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:05:03Z pjb: phoe_krk: it already exists: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum :c :steal t :force t) 2015-11-23T01:05:21Z phoe_krk: pjb: dammit 2015-11-23T01:05:23Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-23T01:05:24Z pjb: phoe_krk: the point is that we cannot do that in distributed code. Only the end-user can do it! 2015-11-23T01:05:54Z pjb: I mean the END USER, not the application, since the application can also be distributed, and loaded in the same lisp image with other applications. 2015-11-23T01:06:23Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:06:37Z phoe_krk: hm. 2015-11-23T01:06:46Z areinisch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:07:16Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:07:18Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:07:37Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:09:59Z phoe_krk: pjb: from what I think, my code completely avoids CLHS-defined nicknames 2015-11-23T01:10:57Z pjb: phoe_krk: also see: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/relative-package.lisp 2015-11-23T01:11:01Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:12:01Z pjb: phoe_krk: and: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames 2015-11-23T01:12:54Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:16:11Z pjb: namespace: it's not that one construct is better than another. CL just allows you to write in various styles (and mix them if you want or need to). loop style uses variables and mutations of those variables. recursive style uses variables (and let you avoid mutation of them). higher order functions let you avoid using variables at all. 2015-11-23T01:17:04Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:17:42Z pjb: namespace: (LET ((LIST '(1 2 3))) (loop for ELEMENT in LIST collect (1+ ELEMENT))) vs. (defun inc-list (LIST) (cons (1+ (car LIST)) (inc-list (cdr LIST)))) (inc-list '(1 2 3)) vs. (mapcar (function 1+) '(1 2 3)) <- no variable. 2015-11-23T01:18:24Z phoe_krk: pjb: well then, my code is certainly for the end-user only. I can see it conflicting when used in multiple packages. 2015-11-23T01:18:52Z phoe_krk: pjb: but again, that was the idea, I think? 2015-11-23T01:20:11Z pjb: Relative hierarchical package names, and package-local package nicknames are useful to deal with several things (and they should be merged): package versions, long-package names (used to avoid collision), ease of use, clarity of code. 2015-11-23T01:21:48Z phoe_krk: pjb: if you have a while, please give my code an ogle; I'll try to think on how to make these nicknames package-local. 2015-11-23T01:22:22Z pjb: phoe_krk: I assume you will have this pushed in a git repository? 2015-11-23T01:22:24Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:22:37Z phoe_krk: pjb: yes, as soon as I learn git :P 2015-11-23T01:22:41Z phoe_krk: which will be in a few days at most. 2015-11-23T01:23:45Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:24:43Z sid_cypher: pjb: so your code is licensed AGPL3, and that licence has full GPL "virality" through static linking, no LLGPL mods. 2015-11-23T01:24:49Z pjb: phoe_krk: also, now I just use all my packages in cl-user directly :-) 2015-11-23T01:24:54Z pjb: sid_cypher: yes. 2015-11-23T01:25:18Z pjb: sid_cypher: and be happy, because if the TAFTA had been a little worse, I would even have retracted any distribution. 2015-11-23T01:25:22Z phoe_krk: pjb: what do you mean? 2015-11-23T01:25:31Z sid_cypher: pjb: does that mean if i use a little function from your code base in a server, i must AGPL3 the entire project? :) 2015-11-23T01:25:38Z pjb: phoe_krk: I mean that I don't have to type the package names. 2015-11-23T01:25:51Z phoe_krk: oh, use-package. got it. 2015-11-23T01:25:54Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:26:02Z pjb: sid_cypher: perhaps not. It depends on whether a judge will determine if your work is a derived work of mine, or not. 2015-11-23T01:26:30Z pjb: sid_cypher: notice that derived work also include translations. if you tool a package of mine, and rewrote it in C++, you would have to distribute it under the AGPL3. 2015-11-23T01:26:30Z sid_cypher: pjb: TAFTA as in Transatlantic Free Trade Area? 2015-11-23T01:26:36Z pjb: sid_cypher: yes. 2015-11-23T01:26:48Z pjb: Not transatlantic, not free, not trade, not an area. 2015-11-23T01:28:01Z sid_cypher: pjb: eeek, legal stuff, lots of it, how horrible! Not looking at your code, then :) 2015-11-23T01:28:37Z pjb: sid_cypher: are you a code hoarders, an horrible capitalist who wants to exploit and take advantage of your fellow humans? 2015-11-23T01:28:41Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:28:53Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:28:59Z pjb: Or will you distribute your sources anyways? If the later, you can as well put it under AGPL3. 2015-11-23T01:29:11Z sid_cypher: pjb: nah, i publish under MIT, not GPL. 2015-11-23T01:30:22Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:31:11Z cyraxjoe_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-23T01:31:21Z sid_cypher: MIT, Simplified BSD, ISC - the most permissive stuff. 2015-11-23T01:31:26Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:32:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: https://github.com/phoe-krk/phoe-nicknames/ 2015-11-23T01:32:25Z phoe_krk: I think git works like that 2015-11-23T01:33:16Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: yay, starred^^ 2015-11-23T01:33:32Z phoe_krk: starred? 2015-11-23T01:33:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:34:03Z phoe_krk: oh, yay 2015-11-23T01:34:20Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: if you press the Star button, it will add to bookmarks/favorites/that kinda thing 2015-11-23T01:34:32Z phoe_krk: thanks, I got it 2015-11-23T01:35:31Z phoe_krk: pjb: would making a package-local *nickname-table* for each package this is loaded into solve the problem of locality? 2015-11-23T01:35:54Z phoe_krk: that way, you would use package1's *nickname-table* while you're (in-package :package1) 2015-11-23T01:36:14Z phoe_krk: which wouldn't conflict with package2's *nickname-table* regardless of what's inside it 2015-11-23T01:37:11Z phoe_krk: and if you call package2:somefunction, internally, it will be using package2's *nickname-table* to work with its internal $nicknames, right? 2015-11-23T01:38:53Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:39:04Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:40:25Z pjb: phoe_krk: you would want a gensymed variable name. 2015-11-23T01:40:46Z phoe_krk: pjb: how do I refer to that gensymed variable name from outside? 2015-11-23T01:40:47Z pjb: phoe_krk: alternatively, you could keep it in a weak hashtable keyed by the package (or package name). 2015-11-23T01:41:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: or a normal hash-table, depending on how you want your local nicknames to be considered when a package is deleted and recreated. 2015-11-23T01:41:19Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:41:53Z phoe_krk: pjb: I don't get it just yet. Why would my approach of a package-internal *nickname-table* fail? 2015-11-23T01:43:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:43:55Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:43:55Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T01:44:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:44:38Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:44:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:45:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:47:47Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T01:48:44Z pjb: because user code can use this symbol. 2015-11-23T01:49:16Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:49:51Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:49:53Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:49:53Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:51:32Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:52:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T01:52:36Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:53:55Z phoe_krk: pjb: yes, the same way user code can use SBCL global symbols and break stuff around. 2015-11-23T01:54:07Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T01:54:09Z pjb: no, not the same way. 2015-11-23T01:54:24Z pjb: when the user creates a package he expects to own it and all the symbols inside it. 2015-11-23T01:54:45Z pjb: you must not mess with user defined packages. 2015-11-23T01:54:55Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-23T01:54:55Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-23T01:55:50Z phoe_krk: So all of the nicknames must stay within *my* nickname package? 2015-11-23T01:56:16Z pjb: Are your nicknames reified as symbols? 2015-11-23T01:56:37Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T01:56:51Z phoe_krk: reified? 2015-11-23T01:57:07Z pjb: objectified. 2015-11-23T01:57:16Z pjb: represented. 2015-11-23T01:57:36Z pjb: notice that in CL, package names and nicknames are strings. 2015-11-23T01:57:37Z phoe_krk: I store them as strings. The reader macro ends up going read-from-string. 2015-11-23T01:57:45Z sid_cypher: pjb: phoe_krk: they're store in a list phoe-nicknames::*nickname-table*, aren't they? 2015-11-23T01:57:49Z pjb: then what do nicknames have to do with packages? 2015-11-23T01:58:08Z pjb: packages only intern and make visible symbols. 2015-11-23T01:58:10Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: right now, they are. 2015-11-23T01:58:12Z pjb: they don't deal with strings. 2015-11-23T01:59:12Z phoe_krk: pjb: so I make a hashtable: the key is package name, the value is a *nickname-table* associated with that package, correct? 2015-11-23T01:59:30Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:00:02Z phoe_krk: and the macro character ends up calling phoe-nicknames:nickname-reader, which is external in phoe-nicknames, correct? 2015-11-23T02:00:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: that seems sensible. 2015-11-23T02:00:48Z phoe_krk: I so need to begin working on this when it's not 3 AM 2015-11-23T02:01:21Z sid_cypher: central europe ftw! 2015-11-23T02:02:01Z phoe_krk: pjb: I'll work on this more tomorrow mayhaps, so I end up indexing stuff by such a hashtable 2015-11-23T02:02:21Z phoe_krk highfives sid_cypher 2015-11-23T02:02:34Z phoe_krk: oh, wait 2015-11-23T02:02:35Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can consider providing the API to edit this table without having to rely on the presence of the packages. 2015-11-23T02:02:38Z phoe_krk: the moment I define a macro character 2015-11-23T02:02:48Z pjb: So you can define the nicknames even before loading the nicknamed packages. 2015-11-23T02:02:56Z phoe_krk: it exists outside of any packages, correct? 2015-11-23T02:03:00Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-23T02:03:05Z phoe_krk: pjb: the api is already in place 2015-11-23T02:03:09Z pjb: good. 2015-11-23T02:03:19Z phoe_krk: defnickname grabs a pair of strings without (almost) any sanity checks 2015-11-23T02:03:29Z phoe_krk: You can (defnickname "asd" "dsa") and the nicknames are in place. 2015-11-23T02:03:37Z pjb: you can use string designators. 2015-11-23T02:03:43Z phoe_krk: You get an error when calling ($dsa:function). 2015-11-23T02:03:45Z pjb: and even packages as an extension. 2015-11-23T02:03:59Z pjb: (defnickname *package* "HERE") could be legal. 2015-11-23T02:04:19Z phoe_krk: pjb: I don't know what string designators are or packages as extension and I'm not going to know until I wake up later 2015-11-23T02:04:22Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-23T02:04:27Z phoe_krk: this is going to take a while 2015-11-23T02:04:34Z pjb: (deftype string-designator () '(or string symbol character)) 2015-11-23T02:04:43Z phoe_krk: oh, that 2015-11-23T02:05:07Z phoe_krk: maybe later. for now I'm using strings and it works. 2015-11-23T02:05:20Z pjb: You just need to do (string name) instead of name. 2015-11-23T02:05:44Z phoe_krk: hm? 2015-11-23T02:05:48Z phoe_krk: (string name)? 2015-11-23T02:05:52Z pjb: clhs string 2015-11-23T02:05:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm 2015-11-23T02:06:06Z phoe_krk: oh, a conversion 2015-11-23T02:06:07Z phoe_krk: got it 2015-11-23T02:06:30Z phoe_krk: that's simple enough. 2015-11-23T02:07:07Z phoe_krk: so I can simply pop in :F, "F" or #\F 2015-11-23T02:07:22Z phoe_krk: and convert them to uppercase for sanity's case. 2015-11-23T02:07:28Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T02:07:42Z pjb: no, don't convert. 2015-11-23T02:07:52Z pjb: people who don't care about case will use symbols. 2015-11-23T02:08:01Z phoe_krk: oh, that way. 2015-11-23T02:08:05Z phoe_krk: okay. 2015-11-23T02:11:04Z phoe_krk: okay. good night, #lifp 2015-11-23T02:11:14Z phoe_krk: have a pleafant night 2015-11-23T02:11:38Z pjb: good night 2015-11-23T02:11:49Z blubjr: good night phoe_krk 2015-11-23T02:13:23Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:13:30Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:21:56Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:28:24Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:30:40Z gmcastil joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:34:32Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:37:40Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:37:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:47:30Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T02:50:38Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:58:02Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T02:59:44Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T03:00:55Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:06:16Z mastokley quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T03:20:03Z BabyBee quit 2015-11-23T03:23:16Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:23:43Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-11-23T03:23:43Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:27:03Z pinkiesOut joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:34:07Z voidlily_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:34:34Z pinkiesOut left #lisp 2015-11-23T03:35:08Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T03:45:19Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:48:46Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:49:55Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:50:22Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:50:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:50:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:51:59Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:53:49Z sulky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T03:53:56Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:54:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-23T03:55:02Z voidlily_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:55:44Z Zhivago hands beach a comma. 2015-11-23T03:56:01Z beach: Thanks Zhivago! 2015-11-23T03:56:27Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-23T03:56:38Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T03:56:47Z beach: Zhivago: You are definitely right about the test for NIL in conditionals. 2015-11-23T03:56:49Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-23T03:56:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:57:02Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:57:48Z Zhivago: I suspect that it's gotten cheaper anyhow due to advances in cache coherence and size. 2015-11-23T03:58:33Z beach: Only benchmarks can tell. 2015-11-23T03:58:35Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:59:07Z Zhivago: Profiles, anyhow -- I'm not sure that I'd trust benchmarks to be representative for things like that. 2015-11-23T03:59:15Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T03:59:24Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T03:59:24Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T03:59:32Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-23T03:59:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:05:24Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:07:12Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-11-23T04:07:27Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-23T04:07:44Z beach: nyef: Long time no see. What's up? 2015-11-23T04:08:04Z nyef: Struggling to figure out how integer division works on HPPA. 2015-11-23T04:08:20Z beach: I see. The instruction? 2015-11-23T04:08:30Z nyef: There's a divide-step instruction. 2015-11-23T04:08:31Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-23T04:08:45Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-23T04:08:53Z nyef: And I have a slightly-broken 32-bit TRUNCATE routine to work with. 2015-11-23T04:09:44Z beach: Sounds like fun. 2015-11-23T04:09:47Z nyef: Just finished working out what happens for a divisor of 1 or -1. 2015-11-23T04:11:35Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-23T04:13:04Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:14:00Z nyef: It's interestingly symmetric, where the initial setup causes the first divide-step operation to either subtract 1 or add -1 to the dividend bit input. The carry output is the quotient bit, and if it's a zero then things remain in the same state, but if it's a one then it kicks over to having a negative remainder and the next step either subtracts -1 or adds 1. 2015-11-23T04:15:01Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T04:15:20Z nyef: So, the sign of the remainder seems to depend on the parity of the produced quotient bits. 2015-11-23T04:15:47Z beach: That sounds bizarre! 2015-11-23T04:16:19Z evanvarvell joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:16:29Z evanvarvell left #lisp 2015-11-23T04:17:47Z nyef: Once I understand the core operation, then I can try to figure out what to do about the bug that I'm seeing, where the combination of a negative divisor and a negative dividend produces a negative quotient. 2015-11-23T04:18:01Z nyef: (floor -4 -4) => -1, 0. 2015-11-23T04:18:31Z beach: Ah, yes, not good. 2015-11-23T04:19:19Z nyef: Earlier, I had one where multiplying two numbers with opposite sign produced an answer that had 2 subtracted from the correct value. 2015-11-23T04:19:47Z nyef: So, I'm getting a good refresher on bitwise multiplication and division semantics. 2015-11-23T04:20:54Z beach: Again, sounds like fun! 2015-11-23T04:22:59Z nyef: Yeah. Just wish I could have gotten to it half a week or more ago. 2015-11-23T04:23:51Z beach: Because of the freeze? 2015-11-23T04:24:08Z nyef: Because of the freeze, yes. 2015-11-23T04:25:11Z nyef: HPPA being such a popular, well-tested platform, such adventurous things as altering how integer division works is possibly a bit too adventurous to commit during the freeze period. (-: 2015-11-23T04:26:17Z nyef: Oh! I bet the divide step is bimodal like this because it means that they don't need a comparator! 2015-11-23T04:28:13Z beach: Speaking of which, did I tell you I have been following online CMU lectures on computer architecture? 2015-11-23T04:28:21Z beach: Good stuff! 2015-11-23T04:28:32Z nyef: I think that you might have mentioned it... Link? 2015-11-23T04:28:39Z beach: Hold on... 2015-11-23T04:28:53Z loke: For a test case I'm writing, I need a way to retrieve a repeatable pseudo-random sequence. What portable tool can I use for this? 2015-11-23T04:29:07Z loke: I'd expect Fiveam to provide such feature, but it seems it doesn't. 2015-11-23T04:29:10Z pillton: clhs make-random-state 2015-11-23T04:29:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 2015-11-23T04:29:13Z beach: http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ece447/s15/doku.php 2015-11-23T04:29:27Z loke: pillton: make-random-state with argument is not portable :-( 2015-11-23T04:29:58Z loke: I need the sequence to be repeatable across restarts 2015-11-23T04:30:09Z beach: nyef: That's the URL for the course. 2015-11-23T04:30:12Z pillton: Save the output into a list. 2015-11-23T04:30:29Z loke: Perhaps I should just use a plain sequence and apply a hashing on each value. 2015-11-23T04:30:30Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T04:30:42Z nyef: loke: Aren't random-states serializable? 2015-11-23T04:30:45Z nyef: beach: Thanks. 2015-11-23T04:31:03Z loke: nyef: Well, it has to be reliable across CL implementations as well 2015-11-23T04:31:49Z loke: I'll just hash a sequence number. That'll be good enough. 2015-11-23T04:31:53Z nyef: loke: Ah. At that point, use your own RNG. 2015-11-23T04:32:12Z loke: nyef: Is there an existing implementation on QL somewhere? 2015-11-23T04:32:47Z nyef: No idea. 2015-11-23T04:35:42Z loke: acm-random seems to do the trick 2015-11-23T04:36:25Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-23T04:37:04Z pillton: loke: I'm confused. Why can't you save the output of RANDOM? 2015-11-23T04:37:12Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:37:50Z loke: pillton: I can, but I'm talking about millions (if billions) of elements 2015-11-23T04:39:04Z pillton: loke: Save to a file? 2015-11-23T04:39:44Z loke: pillton: I don't want to commit a multi-GB file in my source repository just to be able to have repeatable tests :-) 2015-11-23T04:40:44Z pillton: Well, the other choice has risks associated with it. A file doesn't. 2015-11-23T04:41:11Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:43:27Z pillton: I think ironclad has some random number generators in it. 2015-11-23T04:46:37Z pillton: There is a chapter in Numerical Recipes on random number generators. 2015-11-23T04:46:51Z loke: Yes, designed to be unpredictable, which is what I don't want. :-) 2015-11-23T04:47:02Z loke: That said, the acm-random package provided exactly what I needed 2015-11-23T04:49:41Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:51:55Z kalzz quit (Quit: exit) 2015-11-23T04:53:05Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:54:56Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:55:06Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T04:57:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:00:40Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:03:44Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-23T05:06:50Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:12:12Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:15:29Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:15:34Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:16:36Z drmeister: Hey everybody 2015-11-23T05:18:57Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T05:19:42Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:20:58Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:21:31Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:21:45Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T05:22:32Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:23:46Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:24:38Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-11-23T05:24:46Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:26:44Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:28:55Z drmeister: Hi beach. I spent the last couple of days adding GC unmanaged objects to Clasp to facilitate the definition of CLOS classes that derive from C++ classes. 2015-11-23T05:29:36Z drmeister: So that certain classes allocate instances that are neither automatically collected or moved by the GC. 2015-11-23T05:31:35Z Bugboy1028 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:31:48Z beach: Sounds scary. 2015-11-23T05:32:44Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-23T05:33:19Z Bugboy1028 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:33:53Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-23T05:35:26Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:37:51Z _leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-23T05:39:25Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:43:35Z drmeister: No more than scary than CFFI 2015-11-23T05:44:00Z beach: Right. That's very scary as well. 2015-11-23T05:44:27Z beach is easily scared. 2015-11-23T05:44:38Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:44:43Z drmeister: It's like foreign-alloc and foreign-free 2015-11-23T05:44:55Z beach: *shudder* 2015-11-23T05:46:00Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T05:46:04Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:47:08Z drmeister: The houyhnhnm interface to the yahoo world. 2015-11-23T05:47:30Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:48:33Z beach: Interesting characterization. 2015-11-23T05:50:43Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:51:12Z drmeister: Wrap a WITH-YAHOO-POINTER around it's use and it's almost tolerable. 2015-11-23T05:51:18Z drmeister: its 2015-11-23T05:51:21Z drmeister: (sigh) 2015-11-23T05:51:53Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:52:30Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:52:35Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T05:52:51Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-23T05:54:29Z beach: If you say so. I am still too scared. 2015-11-23T05:55:08Z drmeister: I've been thinking about messing with unwind-protect and call-with-variable-bound again. 2015-11-23T05:56:20Z drmeister: stassats has been doing some profiling and his work is suggesting that call-with-variable-bound is what is responsible for the remaining consing during generic function dispatch. 2015-11-23T05:57:06Z beach: Oh, because Clasp uses special variables for next-methods? 2015-11-23T05:57:14Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-11-23T05:57:53Z drmeister: I think he eliminated some of it, but more remains and it appears to be tricky to remove it completely. 2015-11-23T05:58:43Z beach: Hmm. Does it need to bind a special variable when there are no next methods? 2015-11-23T05:59:14Z beach: I would think in most cases there are no next methods. 2015-11-23T05:59:32Z beach: Maybe that's not true. 2015-11-23T05:59:50Z drmeister: I'm not sure. I think I eliminated the worst of it by implementing a code-walker using cleavir's generate-ast function 2015-11-23T06:00:52Z drmeister: A solution would be to implement call-with-variable-bound differently - so that it doesn't force variables into closures. 2015-11-23T06:01:50Z nyef: Make it inlinable? 2015-11-23T06:02:02Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:02:03Z beach: Yes, I see. Hard to tell how much that will improve things. 2015-11-23T06:02:45Z drmeister: nyef: Hi, stassats has asked me that a couple of times - what would that entail? 2015-11-23T06:03:35Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T06:03:59Z drmeister: Currently call-with-variable-bound is implemented as a C++ function. I could inline it using LLVM's inlining - but that wouldn't do anything in terms of moving bindings out of closures onto the stack. 2015-11-23T06:04:25Z beach: It would require additional HIR/MIR instructions. 2015-11-23T06:04:35Z nyef: ... Oh. You don't have LET-conversion, do you? 2015-11-23T06:04:38Z nyef: Or do you? 2015-11-23T06:05:03Z drmeister: What is LET-conversion? Cleavir may have it - beach - does Cleavir have LET conversions? 2015-11-23T06:05:31Z drmeister: There is no LET in the Cleavir AST or HIR 2015-11-23T06:05:55Z beach: nyef: What is LET-conversion? 2015-11-23T06:06:01Z drmeister: Ha! 2015-11-23T06:06:37Z nyef: LET-conversion, in SBCL, is where the compiler decides "this function call looks like a LET, so promote all of the variables of the called function to the next outer scope, convert the argument preparation to a bunch of sets of the variables, delete the LAMBDA, and splice the body inline. 2015-11-23T06:06:41Z nyef: " 2015-11-23T06:07:10Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T06:07:13Z nyef: There's also stuff involved with cleanups for special variables and the like. 2015-11-23T06:07:41Z beach: I think that is what inlining in Cleavir does. 2015-11-23T06:08:21Z drmeister: Well, the issue is how to guarantee cleanups - they have to be done with landing pads in Clasp. We may be looking at this elephant from very different perspectives. 2015-11-23T06:08:34Z beach: When the call is sufficiently simple, it replaces the CALL-AST by a copy of the body of the inlined function, assigning to variables as appropriate. 2015-11-23T06:09:11Z beach: But the problem here is that CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND can not be implemented in HIR/MIR with the current instruction set. 2015-11-23T06:09:24Z drmeister is just starting to realize what elephant part he's looking at and doesn't really want to know. 2015-11-23T06:09:31Z nyef: So, the basic operations for something like call-with-symbol-value-bound are obtaining the old value, setting up an unwind-protect, setting the new value, and setting the old value back on unwind. 2015-11-23T06:09:47Z beach: So even if you do "LET-conversion", you would have to implement CALL-WITH-SYMBOL-VALUE-BOUND in HIR/MIR for it to be inlined. 2015-11-23T06:10:45Z drmeister: beach: Agreed. I kind of know what is necessary though, a region of code where all non-local exits go through a cleanup clause of a landing pad 2015-11-23T06:10:53Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T06:11:15Z nyef: (defun call-with-symbol-value-bound (symbol value thunk) (let ((old-value (symbol-value symbol))) (unwind-protect (progn (setf (symbol-value symbol) value) (funcall thunk)) (setf (symbol-value symbol) old-value)))) ? 2015-11-23T06:11:24Z beach: drmeister: The problem with that solution is that it will impact all future optimizations that I will implement for HIR. 2015-11-23T06:11:50Z drmeister: I'd like to avoid the call part of call-with-symbol-value-bound - that's where it would call another function and force the creation of a closure. 2015-11-23T06:12:04Z drmeister: beach: That's why I'm bringing it up. 2015-11-23T06:12:49Z drmeister: Would it though? Wouldn't this be happening at the MIR stage? 2015-11-23T06:13:27Z drmeister: I know there has to be something in the HIR though - because that's what the MIR is derived from. 2015-11-23T06:13:37Z beach: There will be many optimizations at the MIR stage as well. Though if you choose not to use Cleavir MIR, then go ahead. 2015-11-23T06:13:38Z drmeister: So you are probably right. 2015-11-23T06:14:01Z beach: Cleavir MIR will be where address calculations are exposed. 2015-11-23T06:14:04Z drmeister: Well, I am at this point 2015-11-23T06:14:28Z drmeister: Yes, and I'm using the memref2-instruction already 2015-11-23T06:15:04Z beach: That's not a problem per se. 2015-11-23T06:15:22Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:15:50Z beach: It is a problem only if you want to use the MIR optimizations that I will implement for Cleavir, and you have instructions that are not recognized by those optimization techniques. 2015-11-23T06:18:41Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:19:28Z drmeister: Yes, and I have a landing-pad-named-enter-instruction/landing-pad-return-instruction pair already 2015-11-23T06:19:47Z drmeister: I'm trying to think of how to do this in a way that would be compatible with your future optimizations. 2015-11-23T06:23:58Z beach: My advice: 2015-11-23T06:24:05Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T06:24:14Z gmcastil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T06:24:30Z beach: Don't bother. Instead, change the way next methods are called so that this mechanism does not use special variable bindings. 2015-11-23T06:25:14Z drmeister: What would that look like? 2015-11-23T06:25:22Z beach: But of course you have no obligation to follow this advice. 2015-11-23T06:25:49Z beach: drmeister: I don't think most CLOS implementations would use special variables there. 2015-11-23T06:25:52Z drmeister: Understood - but I want to avoid problems down the road 2015-11-23T06:26:18Z beach: What do you mean by that? 2015-11-23T06:26:38Z drmeister: I don't want to do something that will be incompatible with optimizations down the road. 2015-11-23T06:27:17Z beach: I don't see how that would be the case. 2015-11-23T06:27:45Z beach: There is nothing complicated in the way next methods are handled in what I think is a typical CLOS implementation. 2015-11-23T06:29:06Z drmeister: Well, if I cook up some kind of try-instruction/exception-instruction that requires that the hir within the try-instruction/exception-instruction pair follow certain rules that your optimizations don't follow - then I have a huge problem. 2015-11-23T06:29:36Z drmeister: Yes, what you are suggesting doesn't suffer the problem that I just described. 2015-11-23T06:30:12Z drmeister: I just don't know how to modify CLOS to avoid special variables. I'll talk with stas about it tomorrow. 2015-11-23T06:30:16Z beach: If I am right about how a typical CLOS implementation handles next methods, then there will be no need for binding a special variable, so no need to inline CALL-WITH-SYMBOL-VALUE-BOUND, so no need to cook up anything at all. 2015-11-23T06:31:13Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-invocation-protocol.html 2015-11-23T06:34:28Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-23T06:34:47Z beach: By default, a method is called with two arguments: a list of the arguments to the generic function and a list of next methods. But in most cases a very simple optimization is possible, namely if the generic function has only required arguments, then the method can take the normal parameters plus a list of next methods. 2015-11-23T06:34:59Z beach: So no need to construct a list. 2015-11-23T06:35:13Z drmeister: So what's going on in the ECL code then? Why does it use special variables? Is it the way it represents the effective method - is it storing the arguments and next method list in special variables and calling each method as a function with the arguments and remaining methods? 2015-11-23T06:35:14Z nyef: ... As far as I can figure, from looking at the assembly, comparing with a believed-good version (though one that I may have to check in the morning), and having worked through a couple of examples of the divide-step operation on paper, this routine should work. 2015-11-23T06:36:00Z beach: drmeister: That, I can't answer. Sorry. 2015-11-23T06:36:27Z drmeister: nyef: Are you referring to what beach and I are discussing? divide-step? 2015-11-23T06:36:34Z beach: drmeister: No. 2015-11-23T06:36:47Z beach: drmeister: He is referring to what he is working on at the moment. 2015-11-23T06:36:47Z nyef: drmeister: No, I'm back at the thing I was struggling with earlier. 2015-11-23T06:37:07Z drmeister: Oh - ok, sorry to interrupt you. 2015-11-23T06:37:39Z nyef: Which means that my next steps have to be to validate my assumptions on the supposedly-working example, to get a disassembly of the routine to compare against the source, and to put together a version that I can step through using gdb. 2015-11-23T06:37:59Z drmeister: beach: What would you expect an effective method to look like so that special variables aren't required? 2015-11-23T06:38:15Z beach: drmeister: From having thought about this in the past, I think an implementation that uses special variables would allow for a global definition of NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD. 2015-11-23T06:38:35Z beach: drmeister: Which in turn would avoid having to optimize them away when they are not called. 2015-11-23T06:38:51Z beach: drmeister: But optimizing them away when they are not used is easy. 2015-11-23T06:38:52Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:39:09Z drmeister: So it would bind next-method-p and call-next-method in the global scope? 2015-11-23T06:39:12Z beach: drmeister: REMOVE-USELESS-INSTRUCTIONS (or whatever I decided to call it) does that. 2015-11-23T06:39:39Z beach: drmeister: Right. That is a solution I considered in the past. 2015-11-23T06:40:00Z drmeister: Also, if there are three methods that apply then call-next-method has to be set twice and between method invocations doesn't it? 2015-11-23T06:40:01Z beach: drmeister: But, I haven't looked at the ECL code so I can't tell you whether that is what ECL does. 2015-11-23T06:41:22Z beach: drmeister: In the solution I contemplated, CALL-NEXT-METHOD is not set at all. It has a global definition that takes the next method from a list contained in a special variable. 2015-11-23T06:41:57Z beach: Invoking the next method would have to re-bind that special variable of course. 2015-11-23T06:42:52Z beach: This design is reasonable if you want to avoid defining NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD as local functions. 2015-11-23T06:43:10Z beach: ... perhaps because you don't have an optimization step to remove them when they are not used. 2015-11-23T06:45:06Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T06:45:21Z larsen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T06:46:02Z drmeister: I'll talk with stas tomorrow 2015-11-23T06:46:46Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:46:54Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T06:47:09Z beach: What do you expect him to say? 2015-11-23T06:47:59Z oceanpollen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T06:49:12Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:50:19Z beach: Anyway, I need to go. Monday mornings are crazy around here. 2015-11-23T06:50:21Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-23T06:50:55Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-11-23T06:53:26Z drmeister: It's not clear to me that using global definitions of call-next-method and next-method-p can work - there can be more than one generic function invoked at a time. If I call the gf FOO and it has three applicable methods and the effective method sets CALL-NEXT-METHOD and the first method of FOO calls gf BAR and it sets CALL-NEXT-METHOD - chaos? 2015-11-23T06:54:39Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T06:54:40Z Zhivago: Well, if you were to generate one version per specialization per level ... 2015-11-23T06:56:34Z Rav3n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T06:56:54Z Zhivago: Of course, you have the difficulty where (call-next-method) gets its arguments from. 2015-11-23T06:57:26Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T06:58:39Z drmeister: Then there's the arguments. 2015-11-23T06:59:43Z drmeister: That's what I want to talk to stas about - he probably understands how SBCL does its GF dispatch - how does SBCL avoid this? 2015-11-23T06:59:54Z drmeister: Time to get to bed - tomorrow is another day 2015-11-23T07:01:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:06:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:08:03Z cagmz quit 2015-11-23T07:16:36Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:18:54Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:19:17Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T07:19:55Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:19:56Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:20:25Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-23T07:21:29Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:22:12Z duper joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:25:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:28:21Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:29:54Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:31:50Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:36:28Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:38:35Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:41:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T07:43:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:44:57Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:48:28Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:48:30Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:52:04Z mac_ified quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T07:52:15Z mac_ifie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:54:27Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:57:16Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-23T07:59:41Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:02:53Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:03:50Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T08:03:54Z youngbaks quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T08:04:22Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:05:30Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T08:08:30Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:08:47Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:09:08Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:10:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-23T08:11:27Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-23T08:12:16Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:14:19Z jlarocco quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T08:14:56Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:15:07Z cods joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:15:17Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:19:15Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T08:22:32Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:24:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:24:56Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T08:27:18Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:27:57Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:28:54Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:32:12Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:33:59Z reggy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T08:34:14Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T08:34:24Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-23T12:38:45Z p_l: AeroNotix: pretty much everything else is "use your implementations FFI directly, be bound to that implementation only" 2015-11-23T12:38:55Z balle` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T12:39:21Z AeroNotix: What about SWIG? 2015-11-23T12:40:01Z AeroNotix: I'm honestly amazed at how simple this is to provide C functions to Lisp compared to literally every other language I've used for this 2015-11-23T12:41:57Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T12:43:43Z balle` joined #lisp 2015-11-23T12:44:30Z jackdaniel: AeroNotix: another approach (imo worse then using CFFI), but meaningfully different from what CFFI does is direct inlining your C code with ECL 2015-11-23T12:44:31Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-23T12:45:09Z jackdaniel: s/then/than/ 2015-11-23T12:45:30Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: ahh ok, no, that'll tie me to ECL, right? 2015-11-23T12:45:52Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's one of the things which make it worse 2015-11-23T12:46:12Z AeroNotix: I have no problems with CFFI, was just interested in other approaches 2015-11-23T12:46:43Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's one of these "other approaches" :P 2015-11-23T12:48:41Z jackdaniel: note, that CFFI isn't portable in some general sense. It just utilizes different native ffi's from implementations bringing some uniform interface. New conforming CL implementation wouldn't be able to use it unless it mimics some other one interface 2015-11-23T12:50:09Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: indeed - new implementations would need to have their implementation-specific stuff put into CFFI 2015-11-23T12:50:41Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-23T12:52:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T12:53:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T12:58:21Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:06:25Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:07:14Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:09:13Z balle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T13:09:56Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:10:59Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:16:06Z grees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:17:49Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:18:31Z balle joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:21:02Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T13:22:01Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:22:37Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:23:48Z pjb: AeroNotix: in clisp, you can write C modules. This is a way to give access to lisp program to C libraries. 2015-11-23T13:24:38Z pjb: AeroNotix: I guess you can do something similar in ecl too. 2015-11-23T13:24:43Z pjb: in a way. 2015-11-23T13:25:28Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:25:34Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:29:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:29:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:31:59Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:33:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:34:36Z kdas_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T13:34:41Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:35:23Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:35:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-23T13:42:50Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:45:43Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-23T13:50:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:51:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T13:51:42Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:51:49Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:52:50Z TMA: AeroNotix: SWIG has backends for clisp, allegro, CFFI and UFFI; however as they lack a LISP savvy maintainer, the backends are somewhat lacking (e.g. #define CONSTANT 123 is translated to (defconst CONSTANT 123) but more involved expressions are translated wrong) 2015-11-23T13:54:12Z brucem: SWIG is sort of lacking maintainers. Much less Lisp-savvy ones. 2015-11-23T13:55:18Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T13:56:28Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:57:11Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-23T13:58:57Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:00:16Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T14:01:01Z loke_`: Man, red-black trees are easy to get wrong 2015-11-23T14:01:17Z loke_`: I think mine finally, actually, works. 2015-11-23T14:05:38Z mjs joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:07:16Z fe[nl]ix: we have a few improvements here, I'll try to have them published 2015-11-23T14:07:58Z fe[nl]ix: that said, I looked into the internals of SWIG and was horrified 2015-11-23T14:08:46Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:09:23Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T14:12:15Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:14:45Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: you there? 2015-11-23T14:16:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:21:24Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T14:22:14Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:29:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:30:02Z erjoalgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T14:30:46Z erjoalgo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:31:35Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2015-11-23T14:34:01Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-23T16:10:59Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:11:52Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T16:11:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:12:00Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:12:17Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:12:49Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:12:49Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-23T16:12:49Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:14:38Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:15:10Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T16:17:00Z AeroNotix: ask drmeister ^ 2015-11-23T16:17:17Z dlowe: we need a site called isclaspreadyyet.com 2015-11-23T16:18:45Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:20:43Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:21:59Z AeroNotix: the docs for CFFI mention that accessing errno through a defcvar is not portable across c stdlib implementations, is anyone aware of an implementation that this will not work? 2015-11-23T16:22:24Z warweasle: dlowe: DNS lookup failed...so I'm thinking no? 2015-11-23T16:23:06Z fe[nl]ix: AeroNotix: errno needs to be accessible to dlsym() 2015-11-23T16:23:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:25:11Z dlowe: warweasle: If such a site existed, we wouldn't need it? 2015-11-23T16:25:45Z warweasle: dlowe: Sound reasoning. 2015-11-23T16:26:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:26:44Z erjoalgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:30:56Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T16:31:21Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:33:18Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:34:09Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:38:02Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-11-23T16:39:52Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-23T16:40:39Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:41:01Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T16:41:55Z mjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:42:38Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:43:35Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-23T16:46:39Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T16:52:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:52:45Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-23T16:54:35Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T16:54:43Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-23T16:58:28Z ngrud quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:02:05Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:02:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:02:46Z jasom: loke_`: I'm with you on red-black trees; nobody ever writes that code twice willingly... 2015-11-23T17:03:34Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:04:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:04:09Z jasom: warweasle: define "production" my understanding is that drmeister is actually using it for computational chemistry at this point. That being said, I expect there are lots of bugs in the parts that he's not exercising for computational chemistry 2015-11-23T17:04:14Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:04:43Z jasom: My motto is: Nothing is ready for production until it's already been used in production. 2015-11-23T17:05:05Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:06:44Z jasom: Note that this is true even for formally verified software; all formal verification does is prove that your code fits a model; not that the model fits reality. 2015-11-23T17:07:09Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:07:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:08:00Z Bicyclidine: i think he's only just started in on the chemistry, so i'd expectc more bugfinding. 2015-11-23T17:08:02Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T17:14:23Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:15:35Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:16:28Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: btw the M-. you posted yesterday is a bug in the source-path-parser of slime which interns https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/242 2015-11-23T17:16:47Z Bicyclidine: oh, good, i didn't want to have to file a bug 2015-11-23T17:18:09Z mordocai wonders if sly has fixed that 2015-11-23T17:18:40Z mordocai notices it is open in sly as well 2015-11-23T17:19:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T17:21:38Z fader_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:21:52Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-23T17:22:04Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:22:11Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:22:25Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:23:29Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:24:01Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:24:13Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T17:24:26Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:24:57Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:25:31Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:27:30Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:28:45Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-23T17:29:41Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:30:59Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:31:17Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T17:31:25Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:31:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:31:59Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:32:15Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:32:36Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:32:50Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:33:09Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-11-23T17:34:54Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T17:35:18Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:36:19Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:36:30Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:36:31Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:36:37Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:37:38Z Guest95609 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:38:45Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:39:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:39:58Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, for a few mins im here 2015-11-23T17:40:31Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-11-23T17:42:25Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I was going to tell to read the comment I wrote to #23. I've already commited the fix (added 6th version to list of libraries CFFI tries to load) and closed the issue. 2015-11-23T17:42:40Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T17:43:10Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: that comment should explain why it's not currently possible to include "general" library into that list. 2015-11-23T17:43:16Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:43:41Z Quadrescence: thats fine 2015-11-23T17:44:48Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:44:56Z hitecnologys: I asked guys on #gentoo a while ago, they said there isn't easy way right way to get path to the library from such script. Parsing ld output or grepping file isn't right so I figured I'd rather just stick to direct paths. 2015-11-23T17:45:10Z hitecnologys: s/easy way right/easy and right/ 2015-11-23T17:45:19Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:46:28Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T17:46:55Z Quadrescence: A sad state of affairs. :) 2015-11-23T17:47:01Z hitecnologys: Yep. 2015-11-23T17:47:16Z root____3 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:47:25Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: by the way, I also didn't quite get what was wrong with that lower right corner. Low-level code broken? 2015-11-23T17:47:58Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I assumed there was some kind of overflow of screen that caused crash. Am I close? 2015-11-23T17:48:19Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:48:20Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, No, apparently it's a "feature" of curses. Basically when you try to write a character in the last position, it tries to advance the cursor. But the cursor advances over the end of the window, hence an error. 2015-11-23T17:48:35Z root____3 left #lisp 2015-11-23T17:48:36Z Quadrescence: ("No" to "low level code broken") 2015-11-23T17:48:55Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T17:49:22Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I see. That's probably a bug that should be reported since I can't possibly imagine where this could be useful. 2015-11-23T17:49:33Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I mean curses bug. 2015-11-23T17:49:40Z Quadrescence: I think it's for backwards compatibility (???????) 2015-11-23T17:49:45Z hitecnologys: Hmm. 2015-11-23T17:49:49Z Quadrescence: So if you saw my hack, when I detect we are writing to that position on screen, I instead insert a character at that position which doesn't advance the cursor, and pushes the existing character (by definition from the man page) off the page. 2015-11-23T17:49:54Z hitecnologys: But it breaks things. 2015-11-23T17:50:12Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I saw the patch. 2015-11-23T17:50:14Z Quadrescence: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/high-level/output.lisp#L33 2015-11-23T17:50:16Z Quadrescence: ah 2015-11-23T17:50:28Z Bicyclidine: i'm going to imagine there's an old roguelike that closes itself by writing to the lower right corner 2015-11-23T17:50:33Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, I saw that this issue existed for many years on other language lists. 2015-11-23T17:50:48Z Quadrescence: Bicyclidine, hahaha 2015-11-23T17:50:53Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: I see. 2015-11-23T17:51:07Z hitecnologys: Bicyclidine: heh. 2015-11-23T17:52:15Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: alright then, that's pretty much all I wanted to know then, I think. 2015-11-23T17:52:28Z hitecnologys: s/know then/know/ 2015-11-23T17:52:38Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: thanks. 2015-11-23T17:52:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:52:58Z Quadrescence: No problem. At some point we should probably merge the VT100 stuff (if it's done). 2015-11-23T17:53:09Z hitecnologys: Yeah. 2015-11-23T17:53:44Z hitecnologys: I wanted to merge it weeks ago but I hasn't checked if the author fixed all those little things. 2015-11-23T17:55:58Z hitecnologys: Well, doesn't seem like he fixed the code. 2015-11-23T17:56:07Z hitecnologys: I'm too lazy to do it myself. 2015-11-23T17:56:23Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T17:56:30Z hitecnologys: We could merge #22, though. 2015-11-23T17:57:20Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: you checked the code there? Since I didn't. 2015-11-23T17:57:48Z Quadrescence: I havent looked 2015-11-23T17:57:49Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:01:46Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:02:00Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T18:02:29Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:03:21Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:03:42Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:04:03Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:04:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:05:15Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:08:39Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:10:07Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T18:14:16Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:17:06Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:18:50Z jaykru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:20:38Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:21:02Z average joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:21:04Z average: is there any strongly-typed LISP dialect ? 2015-11-23T18:21:09Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:21:47Z average: I was reading this blogpost. it makes some prophecies about the era of dynamic languages being over 2015-11-23T18:22:03Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:22:07Z average: in the end it mentions that strongly-typed Clojure-like languages are going to be popular http://elbenshira.com/blog/the-end-of-dynamic-languages/ 2015-11-23T18:22:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:23:56Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-23T18:25:27Z jasom: average: This is the wrong channel (perhaps ##lisp is better) but look at http://www.shenlanguage.org/ for one 2015-11-23T18:26:50Z jasom: also common lisp is strongly typed (as are most dynamically typed langauges) 2015-11-23T18:28:09Z Fare: average, there's Typed Racket 2015-11-23T18:28:12Z Fare: or Shen 2015-11-23T18:28:19Z Fare: or Typed Clojure 2015-11-23T18:30:05Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:32:30Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:35:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:37:13Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:37:18Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:39:06Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:39:09Z average: Fare , jasom thanks 2015-11-23T18:39:29Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:39:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:42:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:43:05Z Fare: Typed Racket is the more stable / developed / useful / polished of them. 2015-11-23T18:44:20Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.) 2015-11-23T18:44:34Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:48:30Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T18:48:47Z lambda-11235 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:48:49Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T18:49:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:49:33Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T18:50:46Z fader_ is now known as et8 2015-11-23T18:50:59Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T18:51:12Z et8: whats the simplest way to create a '(unsigned-byte 8) stream in SBCL, ideally without recourse to external libs? 2015-11-23T18:51:21Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:52:16Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T18:52:39Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:52:57Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:53:42Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:53:45Z et8: I seem to recall with-output-to-string used to work with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) but now giving errors, did it used to work that way or ? 2015-11-23T18:53:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T18:54:50Z dlowe: I honestly can't tell if early binding or late binding makes better software, so I try and practice on both. 2015-11-23T18:55:08Z dlowe: CL is my favorite late binding language :) 2015-11-23T18:55:42Z shka: there are different notions of "good" software 2015-11-23T18:55:51Z shka: et8: question about lucid 2015-11-23T18:56:21Z shka: given two streams producing natural numbers (for instance one producing odd, second producing even numbers) 2015-11-23T18:56:41Z shka: if i will write function that would accept those two streams 2015-11-23T18:57:11Z shka: it shall produce another stream, with sums of successive elements of input streams 2015-11-23T18:57:13Z shka: right? 2015-11-23T18:59:01Z et8: shka: looking at it from a 'functional' perspective is perhaps not the right way, better to think that you have a variable (multi-dimensional) which, when queried, produces the sum of successive elements 2015-11-23T18:59:14Z shka: i see 2015-11-23T18:59:40Z shka: and elements will be modified destructivly in the process? 2015-11-23T18:59:44Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:00:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:00:06Z et8: var Z = X + Y, for example, when queried with: Z @ [t <- 0], might produce 3, given that the first element at t <- 0 of X is 1, and the first element of Y at t <- 0 is 2 2015-11-23T19:00:19Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:00:49Z et8: shka: no, the results are cached in a tuple space, so when you lookup a variable you first ask whether it exists in the cache, e.g X @ [t <- 0] 2015-11-23T19:00:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:01:14Z et8: shka: if it does exist, you just return the value stored in the cache, if it doesn't, you compute the expression which represents X at the given context, in this case [t <- 0] 2015-11-23T19:01:26Z shka: i see 2015-11-23T19:01:28Z shka: ok 2015-11-23T19:01:28Z et8: and you add that result to the cache 2015-11-23T19:01:35Z et8: but you don't rewrite values in the cache, theoretically 2015-11-23T19:01:56Z et8: I mean you could write a 'side-effectful' variant which rewrites previously cached values, or deliberately recomputes values in the cache 2015-11-23T19:03:33Z et8: but you get performance from caching values, recomputing everything all the time would take away this performance benefit 2015-11-23T19:03:42Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-23T19:04:23Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:04:47Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:04:57Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:05:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:05:34Z et8: shka: note also that these cache values should also be GC'ed at some point - there have been in some recent papers methods developed to minimize the amount of cached values such that you end up with only those you really need 2015-11-23T19:06:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:09:25Z shka: well, gc is a must 2015-11-23T19:09:35Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T19:10:33Z drmeister: warweasle: I would say give Clasp a try - but of course I would. Clasp compiles and runs itself, Cleavir, ASDF, Slime and Quicklisp - that's a fairly large code base testing a lot of Common Lisp. 2015-11-23T19:10:37Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:11:56Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:12:20Z et8: shka: yeah, just in Lucid variants GC means something a bit different considering it doesn't have a notion of data types 2015-11-23T19:13:15Z Guest32265 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:14:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:14:43Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:17:41Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:18:12Z hiroakip quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-23T19:19:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:21:17Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:22:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:23:05Z Guest32265 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:23:44Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:25:52Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-23T19:26:03Z phoe_krk: pjb: I'm changing my project's name. phoe-nicknames is 1) not short enough 2) not too catchy as it has my nick in it 3) it conflicts with CL's internal nicknames. I'll call my project pseudonyms. 2015-11-23T19:26:26Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:26:58Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:26:58Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:27:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:30:17Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:30:56Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:32:14Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:33:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:35:09Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:35:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-11-23T19:37:08Z dwchandler: fauxnyms? It's almost like you get to keep your nick in there ;-) 2015-11-23T19:37:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:38:44Z phoe_krk: dwchandler: fauxnyms? I don't see my nick in there :P 2015-11-23T19:39:05Z phoe_krk: pseudonyms sounds catchier and doesn't include "nicknames", which my thing does *not* fiddle with by any means. 2015-11-23T19:39:14Z reb```` is now known as reb` 2015-11-23T19:40:27Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-23T19:43:13Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:44:26Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:46:14Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:48:08Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T19:48:21Z et8 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:48:51Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:50:17Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-23T19:52:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:53:27Z shka_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T19:53:53Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T19:54:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:55:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T19:55:57Z malbertife_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T19:56:03Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T19:56:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:56:36Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-23T19:58:49Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T20:00:50Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:01:07Z shka_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T20:02:38Z Guest32265 is now known as HDurer 2015-11-23T20:03:02Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-11-23T20:03:02Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:04:26Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:04:57Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:05:41Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:05:56Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:06:05Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Have to write some Scheme) 2015-11-23T20:06:06Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T20:06:15Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:06:46Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:06:52Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:07:17Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-11-23T20:07:42Z ryankara1on quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T20:08:06Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:08:41Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T20:08:49Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:09:35Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:13:21Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:13:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:16:42Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:17:21Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:20:03Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:20:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:20:49Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: or you could go with something like "brevity", if that was the whole point. 2015-11-23T20:21:03Z phoe_krk: brevity? 2015-11-23T20:21:10Z sid_cypher: yup 2015-11-23T20:21:12Z phoe_krk: the point isn't to make it short per se. 2015-11-23T20:21:36Z phoe_krk: the point is to let you access your package by whatever $handle you'd like. 2015-11-23T20:22:05Z phoe_krk: I can see main usage being one-letter as in $u or $c but again, there might be multiple packages beginning with the same letter. 2015-11-23T20:22:11Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:22:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:24:29Z youngbaks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T20:25:00Z whatever joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:25:05Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:25:16Z whatever quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T20:29:09Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: how about "alias" then? 2015-11-23T20:29:32Z phoe_krk: alias is already taken; they mean function aliases by that I think 2015-11-23T20:30:56Z sid_cypher: can't find where and by whom it is taken. Besides, package aliases are fine too. 2015-11-23T20:32:51Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:34:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:35:00Z jasom: Is there anyway with sb-alien to set errno to zero? 2015-11-23T20:35:14Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:35:55Z kami: Good evening. 2015-11-23T20:36:28Z mordocai: kami: Good afternoon. 2015-11-23T20:36:38Z blubjr: hi kami 2015-11-23T20:38:24Z sid_cypher: hello kami. curious - does your nickname has a japanese spelling or not? 2015-11-23T20:38:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:38:32Z sid_cypher: *have 2015-11-23T20:38:43Z kami: mordocai: it doesnt 2015-11-23T20:38:56Z sid_cypher: kami: okay :) 2015-11-23T20:39:10Z kami: mordocai: but I was pleased to hear what it means, when I was in Japan for the first time 2015-11-23T20:39:13Z kami: :) 2015-11-23T20:39:53Z sid_cypher: kami: it can mean "fang", too. much depends on the spelling and intonations. 2015-11-23T20:40:26Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:41:10Z kami: sid_cypher: good to know. Thanks. 2015-11-23T20:41:38Z sid_cypher: wait, fang is "kiba", kamitsuku is to bite. I meant kami - paper and kami - hair 2015-11-23T20:42:47Z kami: sid_cypher: I guess that soon someone will show us the way to #japanese :) 2015-11-23T20:43:27Z OrangeShark quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:44:51Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T20:45:02Z sid_cypher: kami: do you have an ongoing project in lisp as well? 2015-11-23T20:45:21Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:46:27Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T20:48:35Z kami: sid_cypher: some closed-source applications for different customers, built on top of the dwim.hu libraries 2015-11-23T20:48:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:48:51Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-23T20:48:51Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:48:58Z sid_cypher: kami: oh, okay :) 2015-11-23T20:50:44Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T20:52:12Z jasom: @)#$^*@#)$(^*@%)^(* 2015-11-23T20:52:22Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:52:40Z jasom: I had a function that I didn't think should ever return -1 that was appearing to do so; I TRACEed the function to check if it was, and now the bug no longer appears 2015-11-23T20:53:03Z sid_cypher: it appears that many, if not most/all dwim.hu projects are public domain or BSD-licensed. That's great. 2015-11-23T20:53:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T20:53:46Z sid_cypher: jasom: you've found it, congratulations :) 2015-11-23T20:55:19Z jasom: sid_cypher: most lisp projects are fairly lightly licensed 2015-11-23T20:55:28Z jasom: MIT/X11 is popular along with public domain and bsd 2015-11-23T20:55:58Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-23T20:56:24Z sid_cypher: jasom: Clack's LLGPL :) 2015-11-23T20:57:50Z jasom: It inherits that from ECL 2015-11-23T20:59:11Z mordocai: I plan on making my primary project AGPL (cause screw you if you want to use my code without sharing it) but my supporting libraries LGPL(cause libraries are meant to be used). 2015-11-23T20:59:30Z sid_cypher: Good thing LLGPL is not so viral that I can't based an MIT-licensed thing on top of it. 2015-11-23T20:59:49Z mordocai: sid_cypher: Yep, that's the point of the LGPL 2015-11-23T21:00:46Z sid_cypher: mordocai: LGPL (Lesser GPL) is viral through static linking, only LLGPL (Lisp Lesser GPL) isn't. 2015-11-23T21:00:50Z foom: LLGPL is a pretty scary license IMO. 2015-11-23T21:00:57Z foom: Personally, I'd not recommend it. 2015-11-23T21:01:04Z mordocai: sid_cypher: per a paper I read by people who know law better than me, LGPL works fine. 2015-11-23T21:01:21Z sid_cypher: mordocai: okay, i'll keep that in mind :) 2015-11-23T21:01:32Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:01:53Z foom: LLGPL says it's a "clarification" but it actually is a completely different license, with additional restrictions, over the LGPL. 2015-11-23T21:02:15Z foom: Which seems likely to mean it's not compatible with GPL or LGPL. 2015-11-23T21:02:18Z mordocai: I think it is this http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/75 that says LGPL will work for lisp code. Not sure though, don't want to go through it again. 2015-11-23T21:02:29Z foom: (note: i'm not a lawyer) 2015-11-23T21:02:51Z yrk: the entire static vs. dynamic lgpl situation is very simple: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#LGPLStaticVsDynamic 2015-11-23T21:03:57Z mordocai: "Even so, this article has shown that the clarifications made by the LLGPL to the original GNU license are largely unnecessary, and that the LGPL would probably be interpreted in a similar fashion without the clarifications proposed by the LLGPL. This is not to say, of course, that the LGPL comprehensively and expressly addresses all issues – as discussed, it does not expressly address the issues raised by Lisp macros or the Lisp 2015-11-23T21:03:57Z mordocai: runtime environments." 2015-11-23T21:05:30Z sid_cypher: "he fact that such technical detail is not expressly included in the license text will not discharge a court from its obligation to understand such detail in order to properly interpret the license." - a bit naive, methinks :) 2015-11-23T21:05:45Z mordocai: Meh, depends on how good your lawyer is. 2015-11-23T21:06:00Z mordocai: Considering you are going to have to involve lawyers to enforce your license anyway 2015-11-23T21:06:44Z larme joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:07:37Z sid_cypher: mordocai: great answer about the static linking, makes it simple. 2015-11-23T21:07:59Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:08:29Z sid_cypher: i thing the whole point of superpermissive licenses is to take our stuff away from lawyers. 2015-11-23T21:08:55Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:09:21Z sid_cypher: regular people don't wage legal wars anyways, so their right can often be trampled upon. 2015-11-23T21:09:58Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: a couple of comments, FreeBSD is not a license name afaik. The (error (format nil ...)) is superflous you can use (error ) directly. Consider moving the assertions out of the cond in defnickname. They clutter the logic. 2015-11-23T21:09:59Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:10:08Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:10:31Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:10:35Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:10:48Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: thanks! "FreeBSD license" is another name for 2-clause BSD AFAIK. Thanks for the error corrections. Where should I move the assertions though? 2015-11-23T21:11:38Z PuercoPop: Also a few words comparing to nicknames and package local nicknames wouldn't urt either. 2015-11-23T21:12:49Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T21:12:53Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: Never heard of it, did a C-f search on wiki just in case. I May be wrong. Before the cond, using check-type and assert 2015-11-23T21:13:15Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: thanks, I'll look into it 2015-11-23T21:13:40Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses#2-clause_license_.28.22Simplified_BSD_License.22_or_.22FreeBSD_License.22.29 2015-11-23T21:13:59Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: life and learn. Thanks! 2015-11-23T21:14:09Z phoe_krk: "Also a few words comparing to nicknames and package local nicknames wouldn't urt either." - what do you mean? 2015-11-23T21:14:57Z PuercoPop: like, why woulld I use this instead of package nickanames? 2015-11-23T21:15:01Z PuercoPop: or viceversa 2015-11-23T21:16:27Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T21:16:38Z phoe_krk: oh, foreword! okay 2015-11-23T21:17:56Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:18:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:19:21Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T21:21:06Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:26:11Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:27:56Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:30:11Z Martian joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:31:30Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:33:26Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-23T21:34:53Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:35:17Z Martian quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T21:37:07Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-23T21:38:13Z Martian joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:38:43Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-23T21:39:04Z bobbysmith007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T21:39:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:39:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:39:36Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T21:39:45Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-23T21:41:07Z Martian left #lisp 2015-11-23T21:43:55Z et8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:45:39Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-23T21:48:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:48:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:50:03Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-23T21:51:25Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-23T21:52:04Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:54:11Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-23T21:54:13Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:00:39Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T22:02:32Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:03:41Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:04:19Z badkins quit 2015-11-23T22:04:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:05:23Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T22:10:07Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-23T22:10:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:18:39Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:19:21Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:19:58Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:24:55Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:25:38Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:29:16Z newdan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-23T22:31:48Z namespace quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-23T22:32:47Z DeadTrickster_: do we have generic collections library so e.g. first works for vectors too? 2015-11-23T22:33:39Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:33:40Z Quadresce joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:35:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:35:31Z fe[nl]ix: DeadTrickster_: use cl:elt 2015-11-23T22:35:32Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:35:35Z larme joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:36:04Z DeadTrickster_: fe[nl]ix, nah, why? already using aref 2015-11-23T22:36:26Z DeadTrickster_: (first v) vs (aref v 0) 2015-11-23T22:36:32Z DeadTrickster_: I prefer first 2015-11-23T22:36:56Z mordocai: (elt v 0) works on both lists and vectors, unlike aref 2015-11-23T22:36:57Z blubjr: because elt works for any sequence 2015-11-23T22:36:58Z DeadTrickster_: moreover I don't understand why first isn't generic by design 2015-11-23T22:37:11Z DeadTrickster_: so I'm looking for lib that fixes this 2015-11-23T22:37:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:38:10Z mordocai: (defun myfirst (seq) (elt seq 0)) 2015-11-23T22:39:30Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:39:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:40:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:40:10Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T22:41:09Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T22:41:12Z Fare: DeadTrickster, for generic interfaces, see lisp-interface-library :-) 2015-11-23T22:41:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:42:15Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-23T22:42:25Z mordocai: Fare: "Unhappily, no one is working on documentation at this time." ;( 2015-11-23T22:43:13Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, thanks. Always wanted to ask - who uses xcvb now? 2015-11-23T22:46:29Z xificurC quit 2015-11-23T22:47:40Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:48:58Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:49:07Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:50:41Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:54:22Z Fare: DeadTrickster, I'm pretty sure no one uses it 2015-11-23T22:55:24Z skeledrew_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-23T22:56:23Z badkins quit 2015-11-23T22:56:43Z Fare: if you are interested in unearthing it, I'll be glad to help 2015-11-23T22:56:46Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-23T22:56:47Z skeledrew_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:56:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:57:27Z xificurC quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-23T22:57:53Z Fare: although at this point, I feel like it'd be a better idea to either (1) start from ASDF3 and write an ASDF4, or (2) get into the generalized build business, and compete with Bazel. 2015-11-23T22:57:56Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:58:13Z Fare: (and/or with vestasys) 2015-11-23T22:58:15Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-23T22:58:30Z sid_cypher: wise observation. 2015-11-23T22:58:40Z Fare: mordocai, if you have specific questions, I can answer them. 2015-11-23T22:58:44Z Fare: The code is not unreadable. 2015-11-23T23:00:10Z Fare: DeadTrickster, I have plenty of ideas either way, if you're interested. 2015-11-23T23:00:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:01:52Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, I'm not always feeling comfortable with asdf and looks like I'll give xcvb a try 2015-11-23T23:02:16Z Fare: DeadTrickster, it has bitrotten a lot 2015-11-23T23:02:38Z Fare: thing is, asdf has evolved a lot since asdf 2 and xcvb hasn't kept up 2015-11-23T23:02:47Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T23:03:05Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:03:16Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:03:16Z jurov: um, bitrot is something different :) 2015-11-23T23:03:30Z DeadTrickster_: Fade, Bazel is that green google stuff? 2015-11-23T23:03:39Z Fare: bazel.io indeed 2015-11-23T23:04:44Z Fare: DeadTrickster, having written both xcvb and asdf3, I can sympathize with not feeling comfortable with either. 2015-11-23T23:04:49Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, I'm not sure I understand differences between ASDF2 and ASDF3. 2015-11-23T23:05:09Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T23:05:34Z DeadTrickster_: However it surprises me how how version field handled. All quicklisp centric world just ignores it 2015-11-23T23:05:46Z Fare: DeadTrickster, you might be interested in my asdf3 essay https://github.com/fare/asdf3-2013/ 2015-11-23T23:06:15Z Fare: quicklisp is implicitly versioned — you get a snapshot of the library set. 2015-11-23T23:06:24Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, so Bazel, how it can be useful for lisp? have a snippet? 2015-11-23T23:06:24Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T23:06:42Z Fare: DeadTrickster, the lisp support for bazel hasn't been opensourced yet. 2015-11-23T23:06:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:08:22Z DeadTrickster_: Fade, google still uses lisp? sbcl? 2015-11-23T23:08:56Z DeadTrickster_: woops 2015-11-23T23:09:02Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, ^ 2015-11-23T23:09:57Z fe[nl]ix: DeadTrickster_: yes, sbcl 2015-11-23T23:10:09Z jlarocco quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-23T23:11:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:11:17Z DeadTrickster_: I wish google sometime invest some money in it 2015-11-23T23:11:23Z DeadTrickster_: like 1/10 of go 2015-11-23T23:11:25Z DeadTrickster_: is ok) 2015-11-23T23:13:57Z DeadTrickster_: as for QL I think it should be replaced with more convention per-project versioned manager. For example now if hotfix merged I have to clone repository to local-project and do not forget to remove it when QL gets updates 2015-11-23T23:14:32Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:14:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:14:52Z DeadTrickster_: asdf (or whatever system) version tag should be used and forced 2015-11-23T23:15:10Z Fare: Yes, Google still uses Lisp for QPX, the low fare search engine 2015-11-23T23:15:16Z DeadTrickster_: do not understand why CL community should reinvent the wheel here 2015-11-23T23:15:25Z mordocai: What you describe is being developed in a couple places DeadTrickster_. Usually on top on asdf/quicklisp 2015-11-23T23:15:45Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:15:47Z Fare: and builds it using blaze / bazel, and will open source the build bits hopefully next year 2015-11-23T23:15:59Z DeadTrickster_: I heard only qlot 2015-11-23T23:16:25Z mordocai: Yeah, I don't have the link handy but there was something being built that sounded a lot like clojure's leiningen to me. 2015-11-23T23:16:27Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, why it steel not ported to Java or Go (seriously)? 2015-11-23T23:16:39Z Fare: DeadTrickster, QL will let your local-projects/ or your regular ASDF setup take precedence. 2015-11-23T23:16:56Z Fare: port QPX to Java or Go? 2015-11-23T23:17:03Z DeadTrickster_: why not :-) 2015-11-23T23:17:08Z blubjr: b 2015-11-23T23:17:10Z blubjr: oops 2015-11-23T23:17:12Z DeadTrickster_: that is what I'm asking 2015-11-23T23:17:18Z Fare: I believe they tried porting bits to C++ and concluded it was not worth the effort 2015-11-23T23:17:40Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-23T23:17:40Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, do they hire? 2015-11-23T23:17:43Z Fare: It's a speed junkie, so Java wouldn't cut it. Go, not sure. 2015-11-23T23:17:47Z Fare: DeadTrickster, I believe they do. 2015-11-23T23:17:50Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:18:09Z Fare: you have to go through the usual Google hiring process 2015-11-23T23:18:14Z DeadTrickster_: working with lisp in google sounds shit crazy 2015-11-23T23:18:22Z DeadTrickster_: or at 2015-11-23T23:18:26Z Fare: mordocai, clbuild ? 2015-11-23T23:18:36Z Fare: QPX is not the lispiest lisp project 2015-11-23T23:18:52Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, how it deployed? 2015-11-23T23:19:28Z Fare: asdf versions are piss poor. Some have expressed the desire to generalize it, but no one has stepped forward with code. 2015-11-23T23:19:51Z Fare: DeadTrickster, QPX is deployed with usual google tools, mostly 2015-11-23T23:20:04Z mordocai: Fare: I believe https://github.com/CodyReichert/qi/ is what I was thinking of 2015-11-23T23:20:21Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:20:48Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, is it packaged somehow? like debs or rpms? 2015-11-23T23:23:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:23:59Z Fare: DeadTrickster, is what packaged? 2015-11-23T23:24:06Z Fare: QPX is a trade secret. 2015-11-23T23:26:04Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:27:00Z Fare: mordocai, sounds interesting. 2015-11-23T23:27:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:27:31Z Fare: What missing is a build system *explicitly* based on a pure functional reactive programming language 2015-11-23T23:29:40Z DeadTrickster_: Fare, of course it is a trade secret. made with alien technology after all 2015-11-23T23:35:42Z sid_cypher: wouldn't you have to use something like Qi on top of CL for such a build system? Functional paradigm is not Lisp's favorite child. 2015-11-23T23:36:19Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:38:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:39:04Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T23:40:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:41:51Z sid_cypher: speaking of, it would be really nice to have a reader macros for FUNCALL and APPLY just like QUOTE and whatever a backquote expands into 2015-11-23T23:42:30Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:44:47Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:45:34Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T23:45:51Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:46:50Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:46:51Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T23:48:30Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:52:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-23T23:52:31Z sjl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-23T23:54:30Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-23T23:58:53Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-23T23:59:55Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:01:04Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:01:05Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T00:02:04Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:04:51Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:06:28Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: for your $gl:name package alias lib, I recommend you to use named-readtables to turn the syntax on and off. 2015-11-24T00:06:51Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: please elaborate, I know nothing of named-readtables just yet 2015-11-24T00:07:47Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: oh, it's on quicklisp, rather self-explanatory - you push your changes to the readtable on the stack under a name 2015-11-24T00:08:14Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: for that, you need to make a new readtable with a name :) 2015-11-24T00:08:19Z phoe_krk: I'll look into that, thanks 2015-11-24T00:08:28Z phoe_krk: also: why would I want to turn the syntax off? 2015-11-24T00:08:46Z phoe_krk: the only reason I an think of is a collission with the $ character 2015-11-24T00:09:45Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: it a good enough reason already. In general, irreversible changes to the state are bad, a user might need to roll back. 2015-11-24T00:09:56Z phoe_krk nods. 2015-11-24T00:10:04Z phoe_krk: I'll try to understand it 2015-11-24T00:10:08Z Bicyclidine: can't use your thing with cl-interpol, for instance 2015-11-24T00:11:25Z phoe_krk: hm 2015-11-24T00:11:43Z phoe_krk: would be fun if the user could choose the read macro character as well 2015-11-24T00:11:59Z sid_cypher thinks of making "(.myfun a)" mean "(funcall myfun a)" 2015-11-24T00:13:55Z Bicyclidine: not really doable without bad juju. .(myfun a) could happen, tho, and very easily. 2015-11-24T00:14:06Z nowhere_man_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:14:33Z Bicyclidine: well, i guess you could do it by reading .myfun as (lambda (&rest args) (apply myfun args)) but ehhhhh 2015-11-24T00:14:42Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:16:32Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:18:20Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:20:18Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:22:05Z sid_cypher: how does lambda do it? the macro expands to `(function ,form) and the symbol is just a symbol... 2015-11-24T00:22:23Z sid_cypher: apparently the special form FUNCTION does stuff to it 2015-11-24T00:22:52Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: Another possible improvement for repl would be to provide a restart that asks for a new nickname in case of conflict. (Sorry for the excessive drive-by comments) 2015-11-24T00:23:13Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T00:23:16Z phoe_krk: excessive drive-by comments? come on, you're helping me polish the thing 2015-11-24T00:23:31Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:23:31Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:23:37Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:23:43Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: sounds like a good thing, at the same time I'll finally get to understand restarts 2015-11-24T00:26:33Z White_Flame: sid_cypher: making a new sharpsign would seem to make sense to me, say #>(myfun a b c) or somesuch 2015-11-24T00:26:48Z White_Flame: ...new sharpsign macro 2015-11-24T00:27:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:27:25Z sid_cypher: White_Flame: thank you, I did think of it, but I wouldn't be satisfied with that :( 2015-11-24T00:28:34Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:28:50Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:28:50Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T00:31:48Z zch quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T00:32:36Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:32:37Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T00:32:37Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:36:19Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:36:30Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:37:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:37:11Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:41:21Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: it is better to help with code, here is some http://paste.lisp.org/display/160567 2015-11-24T00:41:37Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:41:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:42:13Z PuercoPop: a 'benefit' of the assert is that it auto establishes a restart to replace the offending values. Could make an independent assertion for each argument. 2015-11-24T00:42:25Z harumph joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:42:33Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: the two errors inside the logic could be asserted beforehand though, too, I believe. 2015-11-24T00:42:54Z PuercoPop: yeah the last ones I haven't touched because I want to do the restart thing 2015-11-24T00:43:18Z phoe_krk: won't assert auto-restarts do? 2015-11-24T00:43:23Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T00:44:07Z PuercoPop: yes 2015-11-24T00:44:21Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:44:30Z PuercoPop: but the assert auto restarts UI suck, at least on sly 2015-11-24T00:44:43Z PuercoPop: try to supply new values. 2015-11-24T00:45:00Z phoe_krk: oh well 2015-11-24T00:45:05Z phoe_krk: I'll try to rewrite them myself. 2015-11-24T00:45:23Z phoe_krk: thanks! 2015-11-24T00:46:07Z phoe_krk: and I'll check the restarts on slime. 2015-11-24T00:47:39Z bege joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:48:21Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:49:56Z sid_cypher: I give up, ".(myfun a)" will have to do for funcalling sugar. Nice and easy enough. 2015-11-24T00:52:30Z Bicyclidine: sid_cypher: ((lambda ...) ...) is special cased in CL 2015-11-24T00:53:08Z Bicyclidine: sid_cypher: ((lambda (&rest a) (apply fun a)) b c d) does the same as (funcall fun b c d) 2015-11-24T00:54:32Z sid_cypher: Bicyclidine: don't i need to woryy about a double call? maybe compiler would optimize that away, maybe not. 2015-11-24T00:54:47Z Bicyclidine: a 'double call'? 2015-11-24T00:55:23Z sid_cypher: Bicyclidine: lambda resulting in a compiled microwrapper for actual myfun. 2015-11-24T00:55:28Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-11-24T00:56:00Z Bicyclidine: eh. it's a tail call. i wouldn't worry about it even if it's not optimized, which it probably is. 2015-11-24T00:56:02Z sid_cypher: o wait, that's a TCO case right there. 2015-11-24T00:56:32Z sid_cypher: Bicyclidine: got it, thanks! 2015-11-24T00:56:50Z Bicyclidine: it's not much more complicated than (funcall foo a b c), which in a very naïve implementation would also be two calls (one to funcall and one to foo) 2015-11-24T01:00:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-24T01:05:18Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:06:00Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: ok, assert is the easiest way out. If you want to provide an interactive restart you would have to restart-case/-bind around the (push nickname ...) forms and they should signal the condition in case of conflict. So maybe a (setf string=-getf ...) could replace the push forms and signal the condition appropiately 2015-11-24T01:06:34Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: thanks, saved; I'll look into it. 2015-11-24T01:09:11Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:11:39Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:14:03Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T01:15:52Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:16:15Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:22:47Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:22:59Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:23:52Z physixer joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:24:37Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:25:01Z foom joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:25:41Z physixer: posting here instead of C++ because I might offend someone. I've heard comparisons between lisp macros and C++ template metaprogramming (except that the latter is syntactically convoluted). I have a good understanding of lisp, lambda calculus, and macros, and general C++. 2015-11-24T01:26:12Z physixer: Question: can anyone point me to an article or tutorial about C++ template metaprogramming for lisp programming audience 2015-11-24T01:26:17Z IAmRasputin: So I'm trying to get slimv working with CLISP, but every time I try to load /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/start-swank.lisp from the clisp repl, I get an error like "there is no package with name "PXREF"". Anyone run into this? 2015-11-24T01:26:33Z physixer: My guess is grokking C++TM for lispers is a lot easier 2015-11-24T01:27:10Z IAmRasputin: For reference, the error occurs here: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank/clisp.lisp#L704 2015-11-24T01:28:03Z jurov: physixers dunno about lisp, but i have seen comparison between haskell and C++11 metaprograms (earlier C++ versions aren't expressive enough) 2015-11-24T01:28:40Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:28:48Z physixer: jurov: I'm talking about C++TM pre-11 2015-11-24T01:29:25Z badkins quit 2015-11-24T01:31:15Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:32:55Z physixer: it's even used in 'Modern C++ Design' by Alexandrescu which is from 2003 if I remember correctly. But any TM discussion by C++ gurus is a horrible way to get introduced to it, in the sense of making a mountain out of a molehill. 2015-11-24T01:35:33Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:36:09Z jurov: i haven't coded much in c++ but "making a mountain out of a molehill" sums it neatly 2015-11-24T01:36:28Z physixer: Apparently C++ is so complicated that a compiler written for it accidentally implements a turing-complete langauge interpreter in it. The folks who created such a compiler didn't have a clue. Some user discovered it by accident. And apparently this is some kind of a technical marvel. 2015-11-24T01:36:50Z Bicyclidine: IAmRasputin: that's strange, must be a missing dependency... 2015-11-24T01:37:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:37:48Z IAmRasputin: That's what I figured. I'm gonna go check quicklisp. I'll be back when I find out if that works. 2015-11-24T01:37:51Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:38:12Z jurov: physixer: and why do you expect to find lisp concepts there? llvm does have s-tree internal representation but that's all there is 2015-11-24T01:38:51Z Zhivago: phy: It's hard not to create turing complete languages. 2015-11-24T01:39:00Z Zhivago: phy: So that's nothing to marvel at. :) 2015-11-24T01:39:48Z physixer: jurov: I came across this and the answer mentions the comparison: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24330902 2015-11-24T01:40:47Z axe: physixer the concepts arent the same at all. LISP is an AST tree, so macros that are built with it are feed LISP and output LISP because everything follows the tree structure. C++ meta programming on the other hand is about compile time evaluation of const expressions, to produce some value/set of values. Not to modify the source code 2015-11-24T01:40:53Z physixer: Zhivago: I agree. I haven't read the article but there is one named 'mov is turing-complete' which says a lot. 2015-11-24T01:40:57Z jurov: "you can do scheme in C++" is very different from "how are c++ templates used in practice" 2015-11-24T01:42:20Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:42:58Z blubjr: LISP 2015-11-24T01:44:01Z phoe_krk: >posting here instead of C++ because I might offend someone. 2015-11-24T01:44:03Z phoe_krk: wat 2015-11-24T01:44:05Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:44:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T01:45:17Z physixer: phoe_krk: I don't care much about that except that my question would get buried in a flame war. Here at least I have a chance. 2015-11-24T01:46:47Z IAmRasputin: Bicyclidine: So not only does quicklisp not have any idea what PXREF is, running (ql:update-all-dists) segfaults. 2015-11-24T01:46:57Z IAmRasputin: In CLISP anyways. 2015-11-24T01:47:18Z XachX: Clisp is bad. 2015-11-24T01:47:18Z Bicyclidine: ...my best bet is your clisp being old. 2015-11-24T01:47:22Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T01:47:30Z Bicyclidine: oh, xach would know better than me 2015-11-24T01:47:52Z XachX: I am speaking with my cl user hat on 2015-11-24T01:48:24Z IAmRasputin: XachX: I figured. I got a new lisp book that uses it, and although I figure the differences between it and SBCL are likely trivial, I went with it anyways 2015-11-24T01:48:55Z IAmRasputin: The only other CL implementation I've used in the past is GCL. 2015-11-24T01:49:07Z blubjr: hi xachx 2015-11-24T01:49:18Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:49:29Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T01:49:30Z XachX: Gcl is bad too. 2015-11-24T01:49:35Z XachX: blubjr: hello. 2015-11-24T01:49:51Z IAmRasputin: XachX: I know that from experience. But my professor insisted. 2015-11-24T01:50:11Z XachX: Gcl is maintained, at least. It is just not good at being Common Lisp. 2015-11-24T01:50:42Z XachX: Clisp is better at being a cl but is not maintained. 2015-11-24T01:50:52Z IAmRasputin: So would I have better luck just sticking with SBCL? Or would I run into insurmountable issues, with the book and all? 2015-11-24T01:51:24Z IAmRasputin: I mean, they're both ANSI CL, so they can't be too drastically different, right? 2015-11-24T01:53:12Z p_l: GCL never got around to ANSI, afaik, though I've stopped following news about it some time ago 2015-11-24T01:53:13Z le4fy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:53:34Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:53:52Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:55:00Z IAmRasputin: p_l: Yeah, GCL isn't 100% to ANSI yet. It's planned for release right after the Hurd. 2015-11-24T01:55:40Z p_l: heh 2015-11-24T01:57:02Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:57:49Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T01:58:32Z p_l: oh well, need to go back to sleep after another late night on-call incident 2015-11-24T01:58:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T01:58:36Z harumph: Hey guys. I'm trying to understand asdf and why I'm getting a CIRCULAR-DEPENDENCY error in this little test app. 2015-11-24T01:58:46Z harumph: This is the system def: http://ix.io/mrp 2015-11-24T01:59:08Z harumph: In the same directory, I have "app.lisp" http://ix.io/mrq 2015-11-24T01:59:23Z harumph: And "mod/example-app-dependency.lisp" http://ix.io/mrt 2015-11-24T01:59:54Z harumph: I can't puzzle out how it's a circular-dependency error for the life of me. 2015-11-24T02:00:10Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T02:02:57Z algae quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-24T02:03:38Z gdmalet: harumph: does reversing the order of :module mod and :file app lines do anything? in http://ix.io/mrp 2015-11-24T02:03:44Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:04:06Z harumph: trying now 2015-11-24T02:04:13Z gdmalet: I'm guessing as I'm not too familiar with asdf, but if order matters there's a circle there 2015-11-24T02:05:23Z harumph: gdmalet: omg that's it. thanks! 2015-11-24T02:05:30Z gdmalet: lucky guess :-) 2015-11-24T02:06:02Z physixer quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T02:06:26Z harumph: it's weird. i was going off of https://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 2015-11-24T02:06:51Z harumph: In the "A system with modules" section, the module is defined after it is included in the :depends-on 2015-11-24T02:07:03Z harumph: Argh. Anyway, thanks. 2015-11-24T02:07:23Z harumph: Do people here generally use asdf? 2015-11-24T02:08:12Z gdmalet: harumph: I was reading this earlier: https://github.com/fare/asdf3-2013/ - posted by earlier 2015-11-24T02:08:42Z gdmalet: he mentioned order matters ... and it sure implies asdf is the one true way to handle modules etc. 2015-11-24T02:09:28Z harumph: Nice. Going to give it a read. 2015-11-24T02:16:15Z IAmRasputin quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T02:19:41Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:20:31Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T02:21:23Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:22:06Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-24T02:28:47Z harumph left #lisp 2015-11-24T02:33:48Z le4fy joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:36:03Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:37:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2015-11-24T02:38:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:39:54Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T02:40:23Z RussT1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T02:40:34Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:43:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T02:43:45Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:52:49Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:53:03Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:56:56Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T02:59:29Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T02:59:39Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:00:02Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T03:02:38Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:03:37Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T03:04:45Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:05:04Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:06:51Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:17:55Z le4fy quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T03:19:28Z pjb: /msg - pjb 2015-11-24T03:20:07Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T03:20:33Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-11-24T03:21:24Z blubjr: hi pjb 2015-11-24T03:25:12Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:25:30Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:26:11Z pjb: phoe_krk: what about naminging it pl.chello.krk.phoe.libraries.packages.pseudonyms and let the user decide on a shorter name? 2015-11-24T03:27:11Z Niac___ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:29:16Z pjb: yrk: linking is completely irrelevant to copyright-based software licenses. Only a judge can say whether a work is a derived work of another, and he definitely won't consider linking. Mind you! Copyright defines as a derived work _translations_! 2015-11-24T03:29:51Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:39:22Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:43:55Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T03:44:47Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:49:16Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-24T03:53:50Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-24T04:01:42Z pillton: harumph: The circular dependency comes from specifying :serial t. 2015-11-24T04:08:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T04:20:38Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T04:24:41Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T04:27:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-24T04:36:03Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-24T04:36:17Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-24T04:36:53Z IAmRasputin: Not morning here yet ;) 2015-11-24T04:37:10Z beach: Fascinating? You mean the earth has time zones? 2015-11-24T04:38:24Z Robdgreat: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html 2015-11-24T04:38:39Z Bicyclidine: sounds fake 2015-11-24T04:38:50Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-24T04:38:58Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-11-24T04:39:24Z IAmRasputin: Robdgreat: I guess you learn something new every day. 2015-11-24T04:39:46Z Robdgreat: It's only an arbitrary convention, but I like it 2015-11-24T04:39:55Z Robdgreat: arguably, all time is but an arbitrary convention :) 2015-11-24T04:40:00Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T04:40:09Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T04:40:10Z IAmRasputin: Aren't all conventions arbitrary, then? 2015-11-24T04:40:39Z Robdgreat: I guess in this case I'm being redundant for emphasis 2015-11-24T04:40:50Z Bicyclidine: time is a social construct. go fig 2015-11-24T04:41:37Z Robdgreat: I guess to put it better UGT is no more "fake" than time itself 2015-11-24T04:44:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T04:45:16Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T04:47:45Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T04:47:55Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T04:48:21Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-11-24T04:49:56Z beach: nyef: Making progress on integer division? 2015-11-24T04:50:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T04:51:38Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T04:56:53Z nyef: Yes, got that working. 2015-11-24T04:57:08Z beach: Congratulations! 2015-11-24T04:57:38Z nyef: HPPA has this bit where one instruction can conditionally "nullify" the following instruction, something that I seem to recall seeing in the Raven CPU as well. 2015-11-24T04:58:23Z nyef: In this case, there was a conditional branch to see if the remainder needed a final correction step, and the remainder didn't need that step. 2015-11-24T04:59:16Z nyef: But because the branch delay slot wasn't nullified, the first instruction of the remainder correction got executed, and it turned around and nullified the branch target instruction. 2015-11-24T05:00:06Z beach: So the code generation was incorrect? 2015-11-24T05:00:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-24T05:00:27Z nyef: And that branch target instruction was the one that determines if the quotient needed to be inverted. 2015-11-24T05:00:48Z nyef: With it nullified, the quotient would get inverted even if it shouldn't have been. 2015-11-24T05:00:58Z beach: I see. 2015-11-24T05:01:19Z nyef: This was a fixed routine, but yeah. The post-divide bookkeeping was broken, not the divide itself. 2015-11-24T05:03:06Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:03:20Z nyef: Doing a 64-bit truncate would be interesting, though. The only divide operation provided is limited to a 32-bit signed divisor. 2015-11-24T05:04:22Z nyef: As many dividend and quotient bits as you want, though. 2015-11-24T05:04:47Z beach: What do you mean? 2015-11-24T05:04:48Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:04:50Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:05:06Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:05:25Z nyef: I mean, there's no 64-bit divide-step instruction. 2015-11-24T05:06:55Z nyef: You can run as many dividend bits through as you want, collecting as many quotient bits as you want, but you start having to do clever bignumish things to get beyond a (signed-byte 32) divisor (and thus remainder). 2015-11-24T05:09:09Z nyef: Hrm. I'll need to see if unsigned divisors work... later. 2015-11-24T05:09:17Z nyef: If-or-how they work. 2015-11-24T05:10:03Z beach: So are you improving existing code generation, or just fixing bugs in code generation that never worked? 2015-11-24T05:10:44Z nyef: More the latter for the moment. 2015-11-24T05:11:34Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T05:13:09Z quasisan1 is now known as quasisane 2015-11-24T05:13:34Z nyef: Though in one case it's been "wait, this looks like it's already been implemented, and all I need to do is add the keyword to make-config.sh". 2015-11-24T05:14:46Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-24T05:17:38Z nyef: The next things I need to do are related to the limits on the immediate displacements for memory references for accessing the constants vector, allocating stack frames and the like. 2015-11-24T05:18:14Z beach: Still HPPA? 2015-11-24T05:18:18Z nyef: Yes. 2015-11-24T05:18:29Z beach: What are the limits? 2015-11-24T05:18:44Z beach doesn't know the HPPA architecture. 2015-11-24T05:19:08Z nyef: Some (signed-byte 11)s, some (signed-byte 14)s. 2015-11-24T05:19:28Z beach: Not quite as weird as ARM, I hope. 2015-11-24T05:19:36Z pillton: Is it common to use restarts like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/160607 2015-11-24T05:19:49Z nyef: No, very little in the way of shifted immediates. 2015-11-24T05:20:15Z vlnx_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:20:25Z nyef: pillton: I don't know about common, but it's certainly not unheard of. 2015-11-24T05:21:30Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:21:41Z nyef: pillton: I presume that you'd have a hook function that polled for input on some channel and checked to see if it was a user interrupt? 2015-11-24T05:22:03Z nyef: Or check an elapsed-time clock or something. 2015-11-24T05:22:20Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:22:35Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:22:50Z pillton: nyef: The hook would update a GUI and check for user instructions. 2015-11-24T05:23:15Z nyef: That's about what I figured, yes. 2015-11-24T05:24:40Z pillton: If I hide the INVOKE-RESTART behind a function then it would look like (stop-task x). 2015-11-24T05:26:05Z pillton: How do people feel about functions performing transfer of control? In this case, anything after STOP-TASK would not be evaluated. 2015-11-24T05:26:39Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-24T05:26:44Z loke: pillton: in what context? 2015-11-24T05:27:02Z pillton: In the context in the paste. 2015-11-24T05:28:20Z loke: pillton: Yes, sure. But I wouldn't use restart-case 2015-11-24T05:28:42Z pillton: Why? 2015-11-24T05:29:13Z loke: Well, it depends on what your goal is 2015-11-24T05:29:47Z loke: Am I to assume that you are providing LONG-TASK, and then you want to provide a way for callers of it to exist early? 2015-11-24T05:30:04Z pillton: Yes. 2015-11-24T05:30:46Z pillton: There may be other operations though. 2015-11-24T05:31:11Z loke: I would probably use HANDLER-BIND in LONG-TASK. The caller would use SIGNAL to exit out 2015-11-24T05:32:05Z loke: The way you're using INVOKE-RESTART outside of a signal handler is a bit weird, and I'm not even sure it's conforming. 2015-11-24T05:32:30Z loke: Normally you'd only be able to use INVOKE-RESTART from isnide a HANDLER-BIND-bound function 2015-11-24T05:32:52Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-24T05:33:33Z pillton: Hmm.. I'm not sure that is correct. 2015-11-24T05:34:22Z pillton: It implies that the dynamic environment for the restart is constructed at a time different to restart-case. 2015-11-24T05:34:59Z nyef: loke: It's perfectly conforming. 2015-11-24T05:35:08Z nyef: The mechanisms are orthogonal. 2015-11-24T05:36:44Z nyef: beach: It's looking like HPPA for at least the rest of the week into the weekend, and then either continuing with HPPA to start improving the code generator, adding new features, and reducing the differences between HPPA and other architectures, or swapping back to hacking the Linux kernel for MIPS. 2015-11-24T05:37:43Z beach: Should keep you busy. 2015-11-24T05:38:24Z nyef: Mmm. 2015-11-24T05:40:14Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:40:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:40:51Z pillton: nyef loke: Thanks for your comments. 2015-11-24T05:40:55Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:45:20Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:45:37Z dto joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:48:13Z dto: finally got around to scanning this Digital Equipment Corporation ephemera. http://imgur.com/a/GIcUJ 2015-11-24T05:48:25Z dto: i don't think this exists on the internet. i tried to find it. 2015-11-24T05:48:40Z dto: maybe it's something the computer history museum would want donated. it's in great condition! 2015-11-24T05:48:54Z dto: this is the only place I'd figure someone might know. 2015-11-24T05:49:06Z dto: i got this from my dad, inside another dec book 2015-11-24T05:51:24Z dto: oh. this pamphlet is from what became this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Computer_Museum,_Boston 2015-11-24T05:51:32Z eeba joined #lisp 2015-11-24T05:54:07Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:54:15Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:56:51Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T05:59:37Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:05:01Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:05:07Z RussT2 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T06:09:19Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T06:12:26Z IAmRasputin quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T06:12:29Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:22:37Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:25:14Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T06:25:58Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T06:27:46Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:29:04Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:36:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:38:17Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:39:22Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:39:35Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T06:39:52Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:40:43Z Quadresce: ergh, I really wish READ-SEQUENCE had a :KEY argument. 2015-11-24T06:41:04Z pyon is now known as pyon-tinuation 2015-11-24T06:41:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:45:20Z dfcat quit (Quit: ceeya) 2015-11-24T06:46:34Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T06:47:49Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:50:22Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:51:11Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T06:55:10Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:57:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:57:27Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T06:57:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T06:58:52Z pjb: A better, non-arbitrary notion of time would be a measure of the universe entropy… 2015-11-24T06:59:07Z pjb: Can we make such a "clock"? 2015-11-24T07:00:45Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T07:00:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:05:41Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:10:53Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:11:35Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:12:50Z ecraven: has anyone managed to get snap4/Genera running on recent Xorg? 2015-11-24T07:14:21Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:19:09Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-11-24T07:20:10Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:20:33Z sweater is now known as Guest66469 2015-11-24T07:22:08Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:23:36Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:23:51Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-24T07:25:12Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:25:25Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:27:39Z eeba quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T07:28:03Z eeba joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:33:08Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:35:11Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:37:27Z mastokley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T07:38:23Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:40:32Z pjb: ecraven: probably not. Same as clx. The latest X is not compatible. 2015-11-24T07:40:40Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T07:42:13Z pjb: ecraven: you would use an old X server in Xnest. 2015-11-24T07:42:25Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:42:41Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:43:16Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:44:44Z mac_ifie_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:45:07Z Quadresce quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T07:45:35Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:45:50Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:47:12Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:47:47Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:50:40Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:51:20Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:53:21Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:53:49Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T07:55:16Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-24T07:56:25Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-24T07:56:40Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:56:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T07:57:23Z White_Flame: I use vmware and vnc 2015-11-24T07:57:33Z White_Flame: (For snap4/genera) 2015-11-24T07:58:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:01:04Z ecraven: White_Flame: which base os? ubuntu 7.10? 2015-11-24T08:01:50Z White_Flame: yeah 2015-11-24T08:02:19Z White_Flame documented the full working install steps 2015-11-24T08:03:10Z White_Flame: can pastebin it if you want 2015-11-24T08:03:15Z Niac___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:03:24Z ecraven: that would be great!@ 2015-11-24T08:03:34Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:04:20Z Niac___ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:05:23Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:05:54Z White_Flame: well, more like "took notes" than "documented", but better than nothing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160625 2015-11-24T08:07:08Z ecraven: still great, thank you! 2015-11-24T08:08:39Z meiji11 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T08:09:54Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:09:57Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T08:10:05Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:13:06Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:13:30Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T08:13:30Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:15:02Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T08:16:05Z Bugboy1028 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:17:12Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:18:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:18:37Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T08:18:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:20:17Z Bugboy1028 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:23:34Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:23:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:23:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:24:35Z eeba quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T08:24:50Z eeba joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:27:14Z C4K3 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:27:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:29:04Z sz0_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:35:31Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T08:35:54Z sz0_ quit 2015-11-24T08:43:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:47:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T08:49:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T08:53:59Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T09:05:15Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T09:12:57Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:14:02Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:15:13Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-24T09:18:32Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T09:20:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T09:24:03Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-24T09:28:54Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:30:57Z Niac_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-24T09:30:57Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-24T09:31:29Z Niac___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T09:32:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:33:18Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T09:35:13Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:35:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-24T09:36:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:38:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:39:01Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-24T09:41:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:44:01Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T09:48:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T09:59:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:03:12Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:15:09Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:15:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T10:17:28Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:19:34Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:24:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:27:21Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-24T10:27:26Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:28:57Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:31:55Z sz0` is now known as sz0 2015-11-24T10:31:59Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:35:53Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:35:54Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-24T10:37:24Z myrkraverk: This may seem a strange question. Is there a "list identity" function, something I can replace (cdr ...) with to get the list itself? (this is while testing, and I'd rather not have to remove the function call if I don't have to. 2015-11-24T10:39:35Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:39:47Z White_Flame: there's the plain IDENTITY function, just returns its parameter. not list-specific, but I presume that's what you're asking for 2015-11-24T10:40:27Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:40:50Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:42:35Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:43:35Z myrkraverk: Yes, that'll work. 2015-11-24T10:44:03Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:44:45Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:49:11Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:49:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T10:57:27Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-24T10:58:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-24T10:58:44Z C4K3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T11:00:27Z knobo1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T11:08:51Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:09:10Z myrkraverk: In SBCL, when I read a file and get a stream decoding error, can I retrieve the byte position from the stream, after the error has been thrown? 2015-11-24T11:10:40Z average quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T11:11:15Z Xof: you should be able to get hold of the stream from the condition, and the file-position from the stream 2015-11-24T11:13:40Z myrkraverk: ok 2015-11-24T11:14:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:14:50Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:15:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:20:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:20:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:25:15Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:41:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:45:15Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:45:31Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:45:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T11:45:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:46:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T11:47:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:48:09Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:48:24Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:49:13Z sjl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T11:49:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:50:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T11:51:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:54:33Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:54:35Z johann__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T11:54:51Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:55:21Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:55:31Z johann_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T11:56:19Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T11:59:34Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:00:08Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:04:24Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:08:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:11:39Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:11:39Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:13:21Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:16:50Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:17:00Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:17:02Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T12:17:16Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:23:11Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T12:23:45Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:23:47Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:26:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:27:59Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T12:28:05Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:28:41Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:28:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:29:59Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:32:15Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:34:41Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:35:59Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-24T12:36:56Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:38:03Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-24T12:38:42Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:39:26Z namespace joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:40:55Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T12:43:44Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-11-24T12:44:16Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:44:20Z seumas joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:52:00Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:53:00Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:54:25Z johann__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T12:55:13Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:55:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-24T12:56:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T13:00:05Z DeadTrickster_: can enable-deferred-warnings-check be used per system& 2015-11-24T13:00:06Z DeadTrickster_: ? 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I don't want #1= #1#, I want my string in both places. 2015-11-24T13:59:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T13:59:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-24T13:59:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T13:59:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:00:38Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T14:01:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:03:05Z fraya quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T14:03:07Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:09:29Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T14:09:45Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:10:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:13:06Z phoe_krk: pjb: how should I implement the weakness in my nickname hashtable? Do I use (package-name *package*) as the key? Will that get properly GCed? 2015-11-24T14:14:00Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T14:17:41Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:22:24Z phoe_krk: weak hash tables aren't defined in the CLHS... what is a portable way of creating one? 2015-11-24T14:23:02Z luis: phoe_krk: have a look at trivial-garbage 2015-11-24T14:23:09Z phoe_krk: luis: looking, thank you 2015-11-24T14:23:15Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-24T14:23:19Z luis: minion: trivial-garbage? 2015-11-24T14:23:19Z minion: trivial-garbage: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 2015-11-24T14:23:49Z luis: Oh, that page is very outdated. 2015-11-24T14:24:05Z luis: https://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-garbage/ is where it's at 2015-11-24T14:27:30Z luis: (I've updated the cliki page accordingly.) 2015-11-24T14:29:36Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-24T14:29:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T14:30:02Z phoe_krk: luis: yes, thank you 2015-11-24T14:30:24Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:42:32Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-24T14:44:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:45:29Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T14:48:11Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:48:57Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:49:01Z Ven is now known as Guest9025 2015-11-24T14:54:55Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:55:59Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T14:58:31Z warweasle: I've read PAIP. Are there other resources to improve my Lisp-fu besides just practice? 2015-11-24T15:00:18Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: hey, sorry for leaving on Sunday. There was power failure on substation. 2015-11-24T15:00:20Z splittist: In addition to practice (and not as a substitute), reading source code of favourite (or favoured) libraries. 2015-11-24T15:00:33Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:00:40Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: did you try generating docs? 2015-11-24T15:01:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:02:17Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:03:50Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: No, I've been depressed and haven't gotten around to it. And your paste timed out, so I can't get the stack trace back. 2015-11-24T15:04:28Z eeba quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T15:06:58Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:07:09Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: oh, don't be depressed. Depression is horrible condition, you wouldn't want to go down that road. 2015-11-24T15:07:15Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:07:15Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:07:34Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Oh I know. 2015-11-24T15:07:46Z Shinmera: Knowing is only half the battle. 2015-11-24T15:07:54Z Shinmera: But anyhow, I'll see that I can get around to it soon. 2015-11-24T15:08:06Z Guest9025 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-24T15:08:43Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: one thing about your former comment 2015-11-24T15:08:50Z phoe_krk: "phoe_krk: Another possible improvement for repl would be to provide a restart that asks for a new nickname in case of conflict. (Sorry for the excessive drive-by comments)" 2015-11-24T15:09:36Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:09:37Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: get better first. 2015-11-24T15:10:25Z phoe_krk: I don't want to do that. Having an easy way of changing a nickname (without explicitly calling defnickname/nmakunbound) is a simple way of changing packages all around your code, which usually *will* be a total disaster. I want nicknames to be set once in the beginning and untouched then; fire and forget. 2015-11-24T15:11:35Z phoe_krk: That's why I don't want assert to signal an error without the option to change it: if an error shows up, it means that either you typoed or something serious = package-wise broke. 2015-11-24T15:11:57Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: we're with you. 2015-11-24T15:13:18Z kami` joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:13:44Z kami`: Good afternoon. 2015-11-24T15:14:03Z kami` is now known as kami 2015-11-24T15:16:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:16:08Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T15:16:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:16:11Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:18:07Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:18:09Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:19:49Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:19:49Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T15:20:04Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:21:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:21:48Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T15:21:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:24:30Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:26:28Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:30:49Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:32:10Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:33:30Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T15:34:13Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-24T15:34:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T15:34:46Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:37:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T15:37:01Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:37:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T15:37:01Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:42:44Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:43:02Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:44:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:47:24Z phoe_krk: kami: afternoon 2015-11-24T15:49:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:51:00Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T15:51:19Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:52:54Z marcoecc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:54:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:55:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-24T15:56:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T15:56:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:01:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:04:29Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T16:06:34Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:09:22Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:10:41Z marcoecc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T16:10:53Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T16:10:59Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:11:44Z dfcat joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:11:46Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:12:05Z Denommus quit (Quit: rebooting) 2015-11-24T16:12:54Z phoe_krk: pjb, blubjr, sid_cypher, PuercoPop: https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms I think I applied a majority of your ideas except named readtables which I don't understand just yet. Separate pseudonym tables are working, string-designator works though I convert them all to lowercase strings right now for sake of simplicity, check-type and assert are generously used, a foreword was added speaking about why this works better than nicknames (I can' 2015-11-24T16:13:35Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:13:57Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:14:16Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:16:10Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:17:43Z kephasp joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:20:55Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:22:20Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-24T16:22:23Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:22:36Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:24:23Z mordocai: phoe_krk: looks from my side like you cut off at (I can' btw 2015-11-24T16:25:00Z phoe_krk: mordocai: I can't write forewords) 2015-11-24T16:25:05Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:27:18Z otwieracz: XachX: ping 2015-11-24T16:27:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:27:22Z kephasp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-24T16:27:24Z phoe_krk: okay, README.md done (I can't write readmes) 2015-11-24T16:27:33Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:30:50Z otwieracz: XachX: Timeout, nevermind. 2015-11-24T16:32:39Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:33:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:37:04Z Denommus quit (Quit: rebooting) 2015-11-24T16:39:44Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:40:38Z truecoldmind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:41:23Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:42:18Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:42:59Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: I saw you ask for weak hashtables, that is what 3b's package local nicnames used https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/sbcl.lisp#L15 2015-11-24T16:43:58Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: that's precisely what I used, with a trivial-garbage wrapper on top of it 2015-11-24T16:44:00Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-11-24T16:44:32Z newdan quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T16:44:40Z br0kenman quit (Quit: out) 2015-11-24T16:44:46Z PuercoPop: The idea of restarts is to provide recovery strategies a head of time. So when there is a conflict you can either overwrite the previous o provide a new nickname. Why make the user call pmakeunbound when the restart could do it itself? 2015-11-24T16:45:54Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:46:13Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:46:23Z PuercoPop: also, imho the foreword between #| |# would be better suited in the package documentation option (if you the package definition to the top of the file instead of another file). 2015-11-24T16:46:25Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:46:27Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:46:46Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: having it in a restart sounds like an easy way to screw up quite badly. 2015-11-24T16:47:07Z PuercoPop: you chose the restart, so for example provide a new nickname 2015-11-24T16:47:16Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: another file for package documentation? Do you mean something like README.md? 2015-11-24T16:47:17Z PuercoPop: does not sound 'bad'. 2015-11-24T16:47:25Z PuercoPop: I mean in defpackage 2015-11-24T16:47:30Z PuercoPop: like pjb does it 2015-11-24T16:47:36Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I'll think about both 2015-11-24T16:48:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T16:48:31Z PuercoPop: finally you are modifying the readtable which is against the expectation of ASDF among other things 2015-11-24T16:49:20Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I'll try understanding named readtables and then modifying my code 2015-11-24T16:49:34Z PuercoPop: check fare-quasiquote for an example of how to use it https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/fare-quasiquote/blob/master/quasiquote-readtable.lisp 2015-11-24T16:50:34Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: ooh, that looks not too hard 2015-11-24T16:50:35Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:50:35Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T16:55:15Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-24T16:55:18Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:56:23Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:57:13Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:58:17Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-24T16:58:51Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-24T16:59:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:00:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:00:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:01:04Z DeadTrickster: Fare, I read asdf3-2013 papers today, really interesting. 2015-11-24T17:01:23Z DeadTrickster: aaaaaand he is gone 2015-11-24T17:02:07Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T17:04:43Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:05:23Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:06:17Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: restarts added 2015-11-24T17:08:28Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T17:08:48Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-24T17:10:32Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:10:56Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T17:11:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:15:33Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-24T17:15:56Z phoe_krk: how do I deal with the fact that COMMON-LISP-USER and CL-USER seem to be the same package? 2015-11-24T17:16:11Z Shinmera: By acceptance? 2015-11-24T17:17:03Z phoe_krk: wait a second, something's broken in my code. 2015-11-24T17:17:40Z Shinmera: clhs 11.1.2.2 2015-11-24T17:17:41Z specbot: The COMMON-LISP-USER Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abb.htm 2015-11-24T17:20:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:22:53Z phoe_krk: Let's say I have (let ((variable "value")) ...). How can I modify "value" from within the let-body? A simple (setf variable "new-value") modifies just the variable. 2015-11-24T17:23:14Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:23:20Z oGMo: you use functions that modify the value, not the binding 2015-11-24T17:23:26Z oGMo: (also, don't modify literal values) 2015-11-24T17:24:28Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:25:01Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T17:25:09Z phoe_krk: oGMo: you're right, s/variable/*variable*/ 2015-11-24T17:25:41Z oGMo: er. that changes little heh 2015-11-24T17:25:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:26:11Z phoe_krk: oGMo: what do you mean, don't modify literal values? 2015-11-24T17:26:45Z oGMo: phoe_krk: "value" is a literal string, or (let ((x '(1 2 3))) ...) is a literal list, etc. 2015-11-24T17:27:04Z oGMo: vs (list 1 2 3), which makes a list 2015-11-24T17:27:20Z phoe_krk: oh, that 2015-11-24T17:27:23Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:27:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:28:14Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:28:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-24T17:29:34Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:29:54Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160664 <= let me illustrate. first I define (let ((table ...)) ... and then I go (push sth table)) which modifies the variable, not the value. 2015-11-24T17:30:08Z shka: phoe_krk: yes 2015-11-24T17:30:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:30:12Z shka: no 2015-11-24T17:30:20Z phoe_krk: maybe 2015-11-24T17:30:26Z shka: phoe_krk: no 2015-11-24T17:30:52Z phoe_krk: shka: I know it's broken and I know exactly why 2015-11-24T17:30:58Z shka: ok, moment 2015-11-24T17:31:13Z phoe_krk: I just don't know whether there exists a trivial solution to fix this. 2015-11-24T17:31:14Z shka: (setf name (string-downcase (string name)) 2015-11-24T17:31:15Z shka: pseudonym (string-downcase (string pseudonym))) 2015-11-24T17:31:16Z shka: why? 2015-11-24T17:31:30Z phoe_krk: shka: that's not the problem in this case :P 2015-11-24T17:31:41Z shka: yeah, but why do you do that? 2015-11-24T17:31:52Z phoe_krk: but, I want the user to be able to input a string-designator, which is '(or string symbol character). 2015-11-24T17:31:59Z lambda-11235 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:32:12Z phoe_krk: that's where I convert it into a lowercase string to store/use it later on. 2015-11-24T17:32:21Z shka: why you are not using let 2015-11-24T17:32:25Z shka: that's what 2015-11-24T17:32:45Z phoe_krk: shka: hm, correct 2015-11-24T17:32:52Z phoe_krk fixes 2015-11-24T17:33:15Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: are you asking how you deal with the fact that packages may referenced with different 'names'? ej. cl/common-lisp for example 2015-11-24T17:33:16Z shka: anyway, i assume that your table is not getting modified, or what? 2015-11-24T17:33:16Z PuercoPop: ? 2015-11-24T17:33:25Z lambda-11235 left #lisp 2015-11-24T17:33:51Z phoe_krk: shka: yes, precisely that. I know that push modifies the variable, not the value. 2015-11-24T17:34:04Z shka: what is table, anyway? 2015-11-24T17:34:08Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: nevermind that, my mind borked for a while 2015-11-24T17:34:12Z shka: plist? 2015-11-24T17:34:16Z phoe_krk: shka: plist 2015-11-24T17:34:23Z shka: and that's your problem 2015-11-24T17:34:31Z shka: push will push new first 2015-11-24T17:35:11Z shka: and that's not the end 2015-11-24T17:35:28Z phoe_krk: shka: push will modify the *variable*, not the *value* in this case 2015-11-24T17:35:50Z phoe_krk: I could push to (gethash (package-name *package*) *pseudonym-table*) instead of table 2015-11-24T17:35:50Z shka: moment 2015-11-24T17:35:53Z phoe_krk: but that isn't elegant enough. 2015-11-24T17:35:54Z shka: this is list 2015-11-24T17:36:14Z shka: phoe_krk: ok, i stand correct 2015-11-24T17:36:15Z PuercoPop: you could used eq with the package object itself 2015-11-24T17:36:23Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:36:48Z shka: phoe_krk: basicly you are trying to use functional data structure as it would be non-functional 2015-11-24T17:37:01Z shka: and as PCL says 2015-11-24T17:37:05Z phoe_krk: shka: let me demonstrate 2015-11-24T17:37:05Z shka: there is no list 2015-11-24T17:37:11Z shka: phoe_krk: no need to 2015-11-24T17:37:16Z shka: i know what is wrong 2015-11-24T17:37:25Z shka: phoe_krk: to quote PCL: there is no list 2015-11-24T17:37:30Z shka: there are just cons cells 2015-11-24T17:37:36Z phoe_krk: (let ((table (gethash (package-name *package*) *pseudonym-table*))) (push pseudonym table)) doesn't work 2015-11-24T17:37:43Z shka: you created new cons cells, pointed it to the old 2015-11-24T17:37:48Z phoe_krk: (push pseudonym (gethash (package-name *package*) *pseudonym-table*)) does work 2015-11-24T17:37:49Z shka: how old was changed? 2015-11-24T17:37:52Z shka: it was not 2015-11-24T17:38:08Z phoe_krk: shka: that's an interesting point of view. 2015-11-24T17:38:15Z shka: phoe_krk: yes, because you don't stor LIST 2015-11-24T17:38:22Z newdan left #lisp 2015-11-24T17:38:26Z shka: you just store cons cell to the first element 2015-11-24T17:38:32Z phoe_krk: so I have to modify the list's car and cdr instead. 2015-11-24T17:38:34Z phoe_krk: got it. 2015-11-24T17:38:43Z phoe_krk: now, let me fix this~ 2015-11-24T17:38:47Z shka: actually, you should cons 2015-11-24T17:38:52Z shka: get result 2015-11-24T17:38:55Z shka: store in the table 2015-11-24T17:38:55Z PuercoPop: Also if pseudonyms work on a per-package basis wouldn't it make sense for defpseudonym to take a for-package optional argument? 2015-11-24T17:39:09Z shka: but in reality, i would recommend to get rid of the list from this code 2015-11-24T17:39:13Z shka: it serves no purpose 2015-11-24T17:39:19Z shka: performence is terrible 2015-11-24T17:39:20Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: that's sane, I'll add it 2015-11-24T17:39:26Z shka: go with either hash-table 2015-11-24T17:39:32Z shka: or perhaps sorted array 2015-11-24T17:39:47Z shka: sorted array will be slow in this specific case, though 2015-11-24T17:40:16Z phoe_krk: shka: maybe later, I don't intend people to suddenly get 10e5 package nicknames; I wouldn't call performance to be the issue here 2015-11-24T17:40:41Z shka: hash-table will be easier to use as well 2015-11-24T17:41:50Z shka: ok, you can also box your list 2015-11-24T17:41:56Z shka: but choice is yours 2015-11-24T17:43:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:43:50Z pjb: shka: string-downcase already takes a string designator. 2015-11-24T17:45:36Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:46:13Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T17:46:36Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:47:01Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:47:14Z phoe_krk: pjb: oh! so I don't need to call (string-downcase (string x))? 2015-11-24T17:47:21Z phoe_krk: (string-downcase x) will do? 2015-11-24T17:47:45Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:47:53Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:48:06Z eazar001_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T17:48:11Z phoe_krk: shka: I doubt anyone would actually use more than 100 nicknames inside a single package. I'm staying with a simple plist for now. 2015-11-24T17:48:27Z shka: phoe_krk: sure, as you wish 2015-11-24T17:48:34Z shka: that's your choice 2015-11-24T17:48:45Z shka: personally i almost never use plist myself 2015-11-24T17:49:38Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:49:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T17:50:12Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T17:50:55Z shka: especially with strings 2015-11-24T17:51:06Z shka: it just feels terrible 2015-11-24T17:52:08Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:52:47Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T17:53:22Z jasom: right the advantage of a hash-table over alist/plist is that it remembers the equality function 2015-11-24T17:53:33Z jasom: aside from any algorithmic improvements 2015-11-24T17:55:09Z phf: anybody knows a standalone implementation of emacs style buffer in common lisp? (beach's not arround, but maybe i can use climacs's one standalone?) 2015-11-24T17:56:04Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-11-24T17:57:28Z shka: phf: not emacs expert 2015-11-24T17:57:37Z shka: what do you mean by buffer? 2015-11-24T17:57:41Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:57:58Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:58:06Z phoe_krk: shka: yes, that's why I had to write my own string=-getf :P 2015-11-24T17:58:08Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T17:58:20Z phoe_krk: the normal getf uses #'eq which doesn't treat strings well 2015-11-24T17:58:46Z shka: phoe_krk: guessing: flexi streams? 2015-11-24T17:58:51Z shka: or rather flexichains 2015-11-24T17:59:01Z phoe_krk: shka: um? I don't use flexi anywhere 2015-11-24T17:59:11Z shka: phoe_krk: sorry, tab fail 2015-11-24T17:59:19Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-24T17:59:22Z phoe_krk: phf: ^ 2015-11-24T17:59:27Z shka: phf: flexi-chains? 2015-11-24T17:59:36Z shka: wtf with all ph-nicks here? 2015-11-24T17:59:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:00:17Z phoe_krk: shka: wtf with all sh-nick here? 2015-11-24T18:00:33Z phf: shka: flexichains is climacs's buffer's underlying datastructure, but i was thinking of some subset of the protocol 2015-11-24T18:00:42Z shka: phf: i see 2015-11-24T18:00:51Z shka: phoe_krk: sh > ph! 2015-11-24T18:00:56Z shka: :P 2015-11-24T18:00:59Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T18:01:13Z phoe_krk: sh: only in ASCII numerical notation :P 2015-11-24T18:01:18Z phf: i don't actually much care if it's flexichains underneath, i have a few version laying around that just do string manipulation underneath 2015-11-24T18:02:21Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:03:15Z phf: seems like beach now switched to splay trees for his climacs2 2015-11-24T18:03:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:07:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:07:45Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:09:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:10:06Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:10:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:11:51Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:11:53Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:12:04Z phoe_krk: I have one more problem with my code. http://paste.lisp.org/display/160664#1 2015-11-24T18:12:24Z phoe_krk: This fails to compile because of (setf (car table) (cons name pseudonym)) 2015-11-24T18:12:36Z phoe_krk: How can I assign something to the NIL over there? 2015-11-24T18:13:22Z phoe_krk: Like, I mean, uhhhh. 2015-11-24T18:13:46Z phoe_krk: Initially, there's a NIL over there that doesn't have even a single cons cell, so I obviously can't use car. The question is, what can I use? 2015-11-24T18:14:09Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:14:20Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:15:21Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can't. 2015-11-24T18:15:39Z phoe_krk: pjb: well, that makes my solution a little bit less elegant. 2015-11-24T18:15:58Z pjb: if table must be a cons cell, then make it a cons cell, not a NIL! 2015-11-24T18:16:24Z Bicyclidine: (setf (gethash pkgname *pseudonym-table*) (list (cons name pseudonym)) table (gethash pkgname *pseudonym-table*)) or something 2015-11-24T18:16:45Z shka: phoe_krk: just define macrolet and voila 2015-11-24T18:17:59Z phoe_krk: okay, I've made a dirty ha--- a workaround. 2015-11-24T18:18:16Z shka: there is so many ways to do this 2015-11-24T18:18:44Z phoe_krk: I know, I just did it 2015-11-24T18:20:13Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T18:21:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:22:37Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: added the optional arguments and a lot of other general fixes and cleanups 2015-11-24T18:23:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:28:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:28:38Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:32:06Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-11-24T18:34:52Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:35:06Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:36:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:38:39Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:42:32Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:43:23Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:47:12Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:47:14Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:48:46Z kami joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:49:02Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:49:48Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-24T18:52:23Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:52:51Z rpg: Anyone know if there's a portable library for filesystem locking (with flock)? 2015-11-24T18:53:03Z rpg: (portable == CFFI-based, I suppose) 2015-11-24T18:53:56Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T18:55:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-24T18:57:06Z phoe_krk: what the fsck 2015-11-24T18:57:23Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T18:57:24Z phoe_krk: including named-readtables makes the compiler fail on my *comments* 2015-11-24T18:57:39Z phoe_krk: ;;;; thanks to: 2015-11-24T18:57:41Z phoe_krk: illegal terminating character after a colon: #\Newline 2015-11-24T18:58:42Z phoe_krk: something's broken, let me inquire 2015-11-24T18:59:18Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: iolib 2015-11-24T18:59:27Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Thanks!!! 2015-11-24T19:00:22Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:00:27Z Fade: <3 iolib 2015-11-24T19:01:11Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: is it part of the API, or do I need to dig into it a little? The manual doesn't show any matches to "lock" 2015-11-24T19:02:52Z gaya- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T19:03:18Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: there is a bug in your reader macro reading "$foo bar:" it will read past the space between foo and bar 2015-11-24T19:03:34Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: fixing now 2015-11-24T19:04:05Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: but I get weird behaviour *before* I compile my pseudonyms, including the reader macro 2015-11-24T19:04:16Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: hmm, I misrembered having flock(). there's a wrapper for fcntl(2) and F_LOCK, but not flock(2) 2015-11-24T19:05:43Z fe[nl]ix: I mean F_SETLK, and F_GETLK 2015-11-24T19:06:22Z rpg: sigh. If linux had "lockfile" I wouldn't have this mess.... 2015-11-24T19:07:41Z PuercoPop: Also I don't understand why you use string designators instead of the package and why the reader macro does just return the symbol read. and downcasing in the reader without respecting the readtable-case seems like a bad idea. 2015-11-24T19:07:59Z rpg: I could do this, or demand that my users install "procmail". I think I know which is easier! ;-) 2015-11-24T19:09:52Z pyon-tinuation is now known as hamilto-nyan 2015-11-24T19:10:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:11:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T19:12:00Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: use the package itself? hey, I didn't think of that! 2015-11-24T19:12:15Z phoe_krk: also, what should the reader macro do? 2015-11-24T19:13:00Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T19:13:28Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:13:46Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:14:38Z PuercoPop: I'd have to read the clhs, but I'd guess (intern ) or just (intern ) if not : was found. 2015-11-24T19:14:45Z PuercoPop: *no 2015-11-24T19:14:48Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:14:48Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:16:11Z phoe_krk: uh. from what I see and think, it grabs $pseudonym:symbol and returns name:symbol which is then normally read and processed. 2015-11-24T19:17:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:17:32Z Bicyclidine: that is what puercopop said. 2015-11-24T19:17:45Z Bicyclidine: sorta. you don't need to recursively read the new symbol. 2015-11-24T19:18:15Z Bicyclidine: you just return it. 2015-11-24T19:18:19Z phoe_krk: oh. 2015-11-24T19:18:42Z Bicyclidine: like, the macro on ' doesn't return a string "(QUOTE FOO)", it just returns the list, and bam, read done. 2015-11-24T19:19:58Z phoe_krk: so instead of (read-from-string ...) I do... uh. 2015-11-24T19:20:23Z phoe_krk: Omitting the read-from-string gives me the symbol, but as a return value. 2015-11-24T19:20:41Z phoe_krk: Or, to be precise. 2015-11-24T19:20:43Z phoe_krk: It gives me a string. 2015-11-24T19:21:09Z Bicyclidine: well, you can read once. like i said before, read-from-string and PuercoPop's intern/find-symbol do the same thing. 2015-11-24T19:22:12Z DeadTrickster: is there any known portable select/epoll like thin wrapper for nix and win? 2015-11-24T19:22:15Z DeadTrickster: not iolib 2015-11-24T19:22:15Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:22:18Z DeadTrickster: not cl-async 2015-11-24T19:22:37Z DeadTrickster: something simple like #+win .... #+linux 2015-11-24T19:22:41Z dlowe: not a thin wrapper, but iolib's multiplexer works great 2015-11-24T19:22:53Z DeadTrickster: I'm using it now 2015-11-24T19:23:06Z DeadTrickster: people here not long ago complained on lack of windows support 2015-11-24T19:23:20Z fe[nl]ix: DeadTrickster: there's no such thing as a simple poll wrapper 2015-11-24T19:23:39Z DeadTrickster: basically I want to use usocket wait-for-input and eventfd 2015-11-24T19:23:52Z DeadTrickster: but usocket can't wrap fds 2015-11-24T19:24:04Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:24:04Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T19:24:04Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:25:32Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:26:06Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:27:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:28:09Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: if I refer to an unexisting symbol the reader should intern it nonetheless right? (that is why I think I can't use find-symbol here) 2015-11-24T19:28:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:29:01Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: no, it shouldn't 2015-11-24T19:29:12Z phoe_krk: it should tell me a variable is unbound or function is unbound 2015-11-24T19:29:37Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:29:40Z phoe_krk: (intern (string symbol) name) seems to work, as the last line of the reader macro 2015-11-24T19:30:07Z phoe_krk: anyway, I just realized that instead of strings being package names... I can index the hashtable with packages themselves 2015-11-24T19:30:17Z phoe_krk: which means, goodbye string problems 2015-11-24T19:31:28Z phoe_krk: okay, break time for me, bbl 2015-11-24T19:33:53Z Bicyclidine: being unbound is not the same as not being interned! 2015-11-24T19:36:22Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T19:37:06Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: does using a symbol automatically intern it? 2015-11-24T19:37:37Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T19:37:54Z phoe_krk: ...it seems so. 2015-11-24T19:41:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:41:54Z johan` joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:42:09Z PuercoPop: well in sbcl intern does find/intern 2015-11-24T19:42:56Z johan`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160672 Why doesn't this give me dead code warnings in SLIME with SBCL even though it does remove dead code? 2015-11-24T19:43:12Z johan`: I've done (declaim (sb-ext:unmuffle-conditions sb-ext:code-deletion-note)) 2015-11-24T19:43:48Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:44:47Z johan`: ok, COMPILE did the trick 2015-11-24T19:46:50Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:48:26Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-11-24T19:48:57Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: foo::bar interns, foo:bar does not 2015-11-24T19:49:29Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:49:29Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:49:52Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> zxcv ==> ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-24T19:49:52Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> (intern "ZXCV") => ZXCV // :INTERNAL 2015-11-24T19:49:53Z Bicyclidine: think that's how it works, anyway 2015-11-24T19:49:59Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I beg to differ. 2015-11-24T19:50:01Z Bicyclidine: unbound is really not the same as intern 2015-11-24T19:50:22Z phoe_krk: typing plain zxcv seems to intern the symbol. The second value of INTERN is not NIL. 2015-11-24T19:50:43Z phoe_krk: oh, wait. 2015-11-24T19:51:00Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> cl-user:bnm => ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-24T19:51:09Z Bicyclidine: clhs 2.3.5 2015-11-24T19:51:09Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm 2015-11-24T19:51:18Z phoe_krk: CL-USER> cl-user::bnm => ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-24T19:51:20Z phoe_krk: indeed. 2015-11-24T19:51:26Z Bicyclidine: seems to say that :foo, foo::bar, and bar intern 2015-11-24T19:51:58Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:53:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:53:59Z ukari: hola, how to get the arg-list of a function? 2015-11-24T19:54:17Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:54:18Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T19:54:18Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-24T19:54:19Z Shinmera: Use something like trivial-arguments. 2015-11-24T19:56:43Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: to test using (find-symbol "zxcv"). Reading does not seem to intern as Bicyclidine says 2015-11-24T19:56:48Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T19:56:59Z PuercoPop: event with :: 2015-11-24T19:58:50Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: it interns, for me. 2015-11-24T19:58:51Z ukari: what is the defination of trivial argument, in my book cant find it 2015-11-24T19:59:03Z Shinmera: It's a library. 2015-11-24T19:59:19Z Shinmera: Getting the lambda-list of a function is implementation-dependant. 2015-11-24T19:59:35Z Shinmera: So, you'll want a library to wrap over that, and trivial-arguments does exactly that. 2015-11-24T20:01:36Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:04:22Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T20:05:09Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:07:00Z carlitos joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:07:09Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:07:45Z carlitos left #lisp 2015-11-24T20:07:54Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:08:30Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:08:39Z malice: Hello! How often are quicklisp sources updated? 2015-11-24T20:09:26Z Shinmera: Once a month. http://blog.quicklisp.org/ 2015-11-24T20:09:31Z mordocai: malice: Approximately once a month I believe, though Xach had stuff going on this month so it got pushed back "for the second time in 5 years" 2015-11-24T20:09:50Z malice: Thanks! 2015-11-24T20:10:28Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T20:10:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:15:33Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:18:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:18:17Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:19:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:21:36Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:24:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:25:47Z jonswap joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:29:00Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:29:16Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:29:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:30:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:31:59Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:32:37Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:32:55Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T20:33:34Z phoe_krk quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T20:34:15Z ukari: i use (&rest args) and get args as a list, how to remove its quotes 2015-11-24T20:34:50Z ukari: (1 2 3) remove quotes is 1 2 3 2015-11-24T20:35:45Z oleo: oO 2015-11-24T20:35:45Z PuercoPop: ukari: it depends, one way is to apply the function you want to call with the list spliced. The last arguments of apply, if a list is spliced 2015-11-24T20:36:20Z oleo: use values-list or so 2015-11-24T20:36:33Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T20:37:25Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:37:29Z ukari: thanks 2015-11-24T20:40:48Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T20:45:11Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:47:32Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T20:47:48Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:48:18Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T20:48:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:52:58Z jonswap quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-24T20:53:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:54:35Z neurostorm joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:58:57Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-24T20:59:06Z rpg: ukari: what do you want to DO with those args once you have them? 2015-11-24T20:59:16Z axe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T21:01:20Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:01:39Z youngbaks quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T21:02:06Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:03:19Z neurostorm quit 2015-11-24T21:05:26Z d_axe joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:06:57Z constantinexvi_ quit (Quit: Exiting) 2015-11-24T21:07:09Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:08:12Z johan` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:09:31Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:09:41Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-24T21:11:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:12:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:13:01Z phoe_krk: I just noticed, the moment I hash by package and not by strings, code gets even simpler 2015-11-24T21:13:36Z shka: phoe_krk: hashing is good 2015-11-24T21:13:38Z shka: :P 2015-11-24T21:14:06Z phoe_krk: uhh, question 2015-11-24T21:14:09Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-24T21:14:14Z phoe_krk: assert provides me with a restart. 2015-11-24T21:14:28Z phoe_krk: how do I check whether the object provided within the restart is of a given type? 2015-11-24T21:15:33Z Bicyclidine: "within the restart"...? 2015-11-24T21:16:13Z phoe_krk: (assert (not (getf table package)) (package) "This pseudonym is already taken by package ~S." (string=-getf-key table pseudonym)) 2015-11-24T21:16:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:16:34Z phoe_krk: when the assertion fails, the user is able to provide me with a different value for package. 2015-11-24T21:16:40Z phoe_krk: which can be anything 2015-11-24T21:16:55Z phoe_krk: and providing anything other than something of type package will break things. 2015-11-24T21:16:57Z Shinmera: clhs assert 2015-11-24T21:16:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm 2015-11-24T21:17:35Z shka: eh 2015-11-24T21:17:44Z Shinmera: Either alter your assertion to check for a type or add a check-type after. 2015-11-24T21:17:51Z shka: phoe_krk: i'm not fan of how you wrote this 2015-11-24T21:18:02Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T21:18:08Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:18:11Z phoe_krk: shka: what are your suggestions? 2015-11-24T21:18:16Z phoe_krk: brb 2015-11-24T21:18:44Z shka: namely, because you really just want hash-table with additional function 2015-11-24T21:18:49Z Bicyclidine: oh yeah, (assert (and (typep package 'package) (not (getf table package))), whammo, though i guess that sorta complicates the error message 2015-11-24T21:20:26Z shka: phoe_krk: use hash-table, add new utility function (like: add-if-not-present) signal condition if entry is already present, handle condition 2015-11-24T21:20:45Z shka: and suddenly you have code that is: 2015-11-24T21:20:47Z shka: 1) simpler 2015-11-24T21:20:51Z shka: 2) shoretr 2015-11-24T21:20:58Z shka: 3) more efficient 2015-11-24T21:20:59Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:21:12Z shka: 4) generic and possible for reuse 2015-11-24T21:22:15Z shka: current code may work, but you tied your logic to your data structure 2015-11-24T21:22:40Z shka: and although this logic is hardly specific to your domain 2015-11-24T21:22:43Z shka: you made it so 2015-11-24T21:22:48Z shka: for no reason 2015-11-24T21:23:01Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T21:24:04Z H4ns: a specific error message is a very good reason. 2015-11-24T21:24:28Z shka: hardly 2015-11-24T21:25:01Z shka: since there are other ways to handle this 2015-11-24T21:25:24Z sid_cypher: uwaa, engineering complex software is hard :( so many design desisions. Barely figured out how passing data to a rendering function to get a representation should work withing my work. If the last sentence doesn't make sense, blame high level of abstraction. 2015-11-24T21:25:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:25:58Z shka: Fare: i been reading your blog 2015-11-24T21:25:59Z kdas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:26:04Z shka: you are good writer 2015-11-24T21:26:11Z sid_cypher: +1 2015-11-24T21:26:18Z shka: keep it up! 2015-11-24T21:29:22Z Fare: shka: which? The http://ngnghm.github.io/ blog? 2015-11-24T21:29:35Z Fare: I'm painfully working on ch. 6 2015-11-24T21:29:40Z shka: Fare: yes 2015-11-24T21:29:46Z Fare: the topic: kernels 2015-11-24T21:29:54Z shka: great, can't wait for that! 2015-11-24T21:30:11Z Fare: I tried many topics, but that's the one that stuck for ch. 6 2015-11-24T21:30:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-24T21:31:09Z shka: i also like your "Gulliver's Travels" idea 2015-11-24T21:31:38Z shka: and you highlighted interesting points 2015-11-24T21:31:52Z shka: so really good job so far 2015-11-24T21:32:42Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T21:32:48Z shka: good night all 2015-11-24T21:32:56Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:34:08Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:35:24Z mordocai: Didn't know about Fare's blog. Reading the first post, pretty good so far. 2015-11-24T21:38:30Z dwchandler: And remember, "fare" is Danish&Norwegian for "danger" 2015-11-24T21:41:27Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:41:28Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T21:42:32Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-24T21:43:46Z DeadTrickster: Fare, ping 2015-11-24T21:44:11Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-24T21:44:38Z DeadTrickster: Fare, how to use enable-deferred-warnings-check per system? i.e. only for MY systems 2015-11-24T21:45:14Z ukari_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T21:45:47Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T21:46:30Z Fare: DeadTrickster, good question 2015-11-24T21:46:42Z Fare: that's paged out of my mind, so I'm not sure 2015-11-24T21:47:21Z DeadTrickster: Fade, I read your asdf-2013 stuff. backward compatibility is pain 2015-11-24T21:47:36Z DeadTrickster: now going to read asdf3 manual and lil papers 2015-11-24T21:47:41Z Fade: poor tab complete is not context aware. 2015-11-24T21:48:45Z DeadTrickster: when I read about enable-deferred-warnings-check I decided try it immediately and of course as you noted it stopped on very first system 2015-11-24T21:49:24Z DeadTrickster: I'm seeing this as analog to say erlang option to treat warnings as errors. Erlang people often use this as default 2015-11-24T21:50:19Z Fare: you could have an :around method for output-files, input-files, perform that enforces *warnings-file-type* 2015-11-24T21:50:47Z Fare: for that you'd subclass cl-source-file, maybe module, and maybe system 2015-11-24T21:50:50Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T21:51:54Z DeadTrickster: "Pathname type for warnings files, or NIL if disabled" not sure I understood this 2015-11-24T21:51:57Z DeadTrickster: :-( 2015-11-24T21:52:15Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T21:52:49Z Fare: (let ((*warnings-file-type* (warnings-file-type))) ...) 2015-11-24T21:53:45Z Fare: "if it's not backwards, it's not compatible" 2015-11-24T21:54:12Z DeadTrickster: huh pathname not as filesystem path but like grovel or :test-file 2015-11-24T21:56:22Z DeadTrickster: Fare, one more question: if I have python script that generates few lisp files for me and I want somehow integrate it with asdf so I don't have manually run it. where should I go? cffi groveller ? 2015-11-24T21:56:53Z DeadTrickster: I mean should I use cffi groveller as example? 2015-11-24T21:58:09Z Fare: "pathname type" == a string to use as :type in make-pathname 2015-11-24T21:58:58Z Fare: I just refactored the cffi groveller, so yes, I suppose it's probably a good enough example of how to use asdf3 2015-11-24T21:59:11Z Fare: you can of course rewrite your script in CL 2015-11-24T21:59:29Z Fare: I find CL a much better scripting language than python 2015-11-24T21:59:40Z Fare: and easier to call from asdf, too 2015-11-24T22:00:14Z DeadTrickster: totally agree, but sadly in this particular case python is a way to go 2015-11-24T22:02:31Z Fare: your own hell 2015-11-24T22:03:28Z Fare: My way out of hell: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html 2015-11-24T22:04:40Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-24T22:05:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:06:46Z DeadTrickster: btw stassats on #sbcl suggested that quicklisp can extremely degrade startup time I did fresh install on windows and difference is dramatic 2015-11-24T22:07:00Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:07:10Z Fare: not sure what you mean, compared to what 2015-11-24T22:07:12Z Shinmera: You can dump a core with quicklisp loaded to get the startup speed back. 2015-11-24T22:07:29Z DeadTrickster: sbc+ql vs sbcl 2015-11-24T22:07:33Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, good point 2015-11-24T22:07:47Z Fare: but yes, if you can about startup time, see my livejournal post above, which works well with quicklisp — dumping one image for all your scripts. 2015-11-24T22:08:17Z DeadTrickster: have you tried roswel? or how it called 2015-11-24T22:08:26Z DeadTrickster: roswell 2015-11-24T22:08:33Z Fare: loading and configuring asdf can take a good fraction of a second, or more :-( 2015-11-24T22:08:46Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-24T22:08:59Z Fare: I haven't tried roswell, or qi. 2015-11-24T22:09:11Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:09:23Z Fare: I'm sure they have their advantages, too. 2015-11-24T22:10:01Z Fare: I too am culprit of NIH syndrome, I suppose. 2015-11-24T22:10:25Z DeadTrickster: well there will be no google without it ) 2015-11-24T22:12:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:14:02Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:14:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:14:41Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:17:14Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:17:16Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:17:16Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:19:26Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:20:06Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-24T22:21:24Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:21:47Z gilez is now known as Guest61513 2015-11-24T22:22:18Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:22:18Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:22:32Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:25:47Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:27:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-24T22:29:15Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T22:31:27Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:32:10Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:32:14Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:32:44Z jasom: The use of decorators like @export infuriates me, as it prevents recompilation of the defpackage form. 2015-11-24T22:34:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-24T22:34:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:34:32Z DeadTrickster: with-upgradability really breaks slime-edit-definition 2015-11-24T22:34:43Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:34:56Z DeadTrickster: jasom, all these @ annotations if flawed 2015-11-24T22:36:15Z d_axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T22:37:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:42:10Z Shinmera: jasom: It's also dumb because exporting a symbol can expose more than what that particular form is defining. 2015-11-24T22:42:11Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:46:50Z malice left #lisp 2015-11-24T22:47:50Z Guest61513 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:48:27Z pillton: jasom: Amen! 2015-11-24T22:49:51Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-24T22:50:01Z pjb: phoe_krk: putting packages in hash-tables will cause you problem (eg. when you delete the package, when you don't have the package defined yet, etc) 2015-11-24T22:50:41Z futpib_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T22:50:57Z rpg_ quit (Quit: rpg_) 2015-11-24T22:52:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-24T22:52:30Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:53:21Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:53:53Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-24T22:54:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:56:32Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-24T22:57:12Z phoe_krk: pjb: when a package is not defined yet, why would someone want to nickname it? 2015-11-24T22:57:50Z n2kra joined #lisp 2015-11-24T22:58:07Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:02:30Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:02:35Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:04:14Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:05:25Z n2kra: poking around ECL android connecting via SLIME, wonder if a CL pathname to emacs Dired would be useful 2015-11-24T23:05:49Z mordocai: Sounds useful to me 2015-11-24T23:07:18Z phoe_krk: pjb: when it comes to deleted packages, a simple additional (package-name pkg) check will do; deleted packages will give me a NIL, so they can be deleted at my discretion, possibly by a cleanup function triggered at the beginning of my pseudonym functions. 2015-11-24T23:08:59Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:09:26Z phoe_krk: actually, if I decide to call the function, the check is unnecessary. 2015-11-24T23:09:30Z pjb: phoe_krk: no, any package operation on deleted package is nasal daemon. 2015-11-24T23:09:41Z phoe_krk: (package-name pkg) is CLHS-defined. 2015-11-24T23:09:48Z phoe_krk: on a deleted package, this will give me a NIL. 2015-11-24T23:10:08Z phoe_krk: clhs delete-package 2015-11-24T23:10:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm 2015-11-24T23:10:09Z pjb: Ah, right, package-name is ok. 2015-11-24T23:10:15Z yvm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:10:24Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:10:31Z phoe_krk: That's the only and official way of checking whether a package has been deleted, too. :P 2015-11-24T23:10:35Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-24T23:11:00Z phoe_krk: Also, I'd not nickname something that doesn't exist yet. 2015-11-24T23:11:00Z pjb: Anyways, the problem is that you lose all the pseudonicknames when you delete the package. 2015-11-24T23:11:04Z phoe_krk: That sounds like pure trouble. 2015-11-24T23:11:10Z axion: is there anything that tests whether all elements of a list are T? i'd prefer not to do the inverse (member nil ..) 2015-11-24T23:11:12Z pjb: phoe_krk: sure, you want to nickname them at any time. 2015-11-24T23:11:18Z phoe_krk: pjb: any? 2015-11-24T23:11:27Z pjb: You don't want to wait for a quickload, which you may not want to do at rc time, to define useful nicknames. 2015-11-24T23:11:34Z pjb: All of them! 2015-11-24T23:11:54Z phoe_krk: Welp. Stuff gets harder again. 2015-11-24T23:11:57Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:12:17Z pjb: axion: (every (lambda (x) (eq t x)) list) 2015-11-24T23:12:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T23:13:02Z pjb: phoe_krk: it is much easier to manage the pseudonames without taking into account packages. 2015-11-24T23:13:09Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:13:23Z phoe_krk: pjb: I'm having trouble with capitals. 2015-11-24T23:13:53Z pjb: Just use (setf *print-case* :downcase) and you won't see them. But keep them internally. 2015-11-24T23:14:31Z phoe_krk: Internally? 2015-11-24T23:14:43Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-24T23:14:56Z pjb: Yes, internally. Inside your program. 2015-11-24T23:15:22Z phoe_krk: Okay, so, again. 2015-11-24T23:15:26Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:15:59Z phoe_krk: :package is a valid package name, correct? 2015-11-24T23:16:38Z phoe_krk: "package" is a valid package name that's not equal to :package, correct? 2015-11-24T23:17:03Z pjb: :package is not a packave name. Only strings are package name. 2015-11-24T23:17:11Z phoe_krk: (make-package :package) 2015-11-24T23:17:13Z phoe_krk: Works. 2015-11-24T23:17:17Z pjb: :package is a string designator for the string "PACKAGE" which is a valid package name. 2015-11-24T23:17:30Z pjb: "package" is a different string for a different package name. 2015-11-24T23:17:30Z phoe_krk: Ohh, that way. 2015-11-24T23:17:34Z phoe_krk: So. 2015-11-24T23:17:43Z Bicyclidine: you can name something ":PACKAGE" too, ofc 2015-11-24T23:17:48Z phoe_krk: I have two different strings, "package" and "PACKAGE". 2015-11-24T23:17:55Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:17:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:17:57Z pjb: And two different packages. 2015-11-24T23:18:09Z phoe_krk: So I don't want to downcase anything inside my code. 2015-11-24T23:18:16Z phoe_krk: Because of that. 2015-11-24T23:18:17Z pjb: (list (make-package "package") (make-package "PACKAGE")) #| --> (# #) |# 2015-11-24T23:18:40Z pjb: (quote (|package|::foo |PACKAGE|::foo)) #| --> (|package|::foo package::foo) |# 2015-11-24T23:19:20Z dfcat left #lisp 2015-11-24T23:19:41Z phoe_krk: actually, (quote (|package|::foo |PACKAGE|::foo)); Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-24T23:19:49Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-24T23:20:03Z phoe_krk: but that's because I didn 2015-11-24T23:20:07Z phoe_krk: 't do the line before. 2015-11-24T23:29:26Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:32:04Z grindhold quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T23:34:26Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-24T23:39:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:40:59Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T23:41:03Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:43:06Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-24T23:46:02Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:46:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:46:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-24T23:46:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:47:44Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:50:42Z phoe_krk: I have trouble with reader macro now. 2015-11-24T23:51:00Z phoe_krk: I already know how to intern a symbol, for example, cl-user::symbol 2015-11-24T23:51:02Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:51:18Z phoe_krk: but how do I make it return a non-interned symbol when it meets cl-user:symbol ? 2015-11-24T23:51:57Z Bicyclidine: find-symbol 2015-11-24T23:52:10Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:52:32Z Bicyclidine: and i suppose you should error if no symbol is found 2015-11-24T23:52:47Z Bicyclidine: oh but that will get internal symbols won't it... 2015-11-24T23:53:11Z badon joined #lisp 2015-11-24T23:53:11Z Bicyclidine: find-symbol, if you get nil error, if it's not external error 2015-11-24T23:53:25Z JX7P: the Lisp logo: https://i.4cdn.org/g/1448409180599.gif 2015-11-24T23:55:46Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-24T23:57:31Z rpg_ quit (Quit: rpg_) 2015-11-25T00:00:37Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T00:05:54Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:07:49Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-25T00:09:46Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-25T00:11:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:13:22Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:13:55Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:14:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:17:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:18:17Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:18:30Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-25T00:18:57Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: if it's not external, Lisp will err on its own 2015-11-25T00:19:55Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:22:36Z Bicyclidine: not for find-symbol it won't 2015-11-25T00:24:32Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:28:10Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:38:38Z pjb: Bicyclidine: no, find-symbol will return the non-exported symbol and :internal, instead of :external. 2015-11-25T00:39:06Z pjb: no error from find-symbol as long as the package designator designates a package. 2015-11-25T00:39:14Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:48:03Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms/blob/master/pseudonyms.lisp <- I have questions about the read macro on the very bottom, especially the asserts 2015-11-25T00:48:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:50:05Z skeledrew_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:53:26Z phoe_krk: ...if anyone has a while to spare, please download the full package, add named-readtables to package.lisp and pseudonyms.asd and try compiling the main file. some weird stuff begins going on the moment I do that on my box and I have totally no idea what's going on 2015-11-25T00:53:29Z skeledrew_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:55:23Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T00:58:38Z Bicyclidine: pjb: that's what i said 2015-11-25T00:58:48Z Bicyclidine: well, an extensiont o what i said 2015-11-25T00:58:58Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-25T00:59:44Z Bicyclidine: hang on, why do you depend on trivial-garbage? 2015-11-25T00:59:56Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T00:59:58Z Bicyclidine: oh, for weak hash tables 2015-11-25T01:00:49Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:01:24Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: loading trivial-garbage then package.lisp then pseudonyms.lisp is unproblematic here 2015-11-25T01:01:26Z pjb: Which I think should not be needed, since pseudonames shouldn't keep references to packages at all. 2015-11-25T01:01:43Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: named-readtables 2015-11-25T01:01:48Z phoe_krk: that's what causes problems 2015-11-25T01:01:58Z pjb: (if you want to optimize out package resolution, you could use a small cache instead). 2015-11-25T01:02:23Z phoe_krk: adding them to package.lisp and pseudonyms.asd from a clean Lisp image causes weird errors 2015-11-25T01:02:52Z Bicyclidine: but you don't even use named readtables... 2015-11-25T01:02:56Z Bicyclidine: well, sometimes named readtables is broken. 2015-11-25T01:03:10Z pjb: but in a recent quick test, (find-package "name") was taking less than a µs. 2015-11-25T01:03:17Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I didn't use them for a reason. 2015-11-25T01:03:28Z Bicyclidine: though i can load it right now. 2015-11-25T01:03:32Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: simply adding them to these two places breaks compilation everywhere. 2015-11-25T01:03:37Z phoe_krk: yes, loading them afterwards works. 2015-11-25T01:03:52Z phoe_krk: loading them during ql:quickload when they're in these two places breaks things. 2015-11-25T01:05:15Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:05:47Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: if you want/need, I'll make a branch on github with precisely the changes that break it for me 2015-11-25T01:05:48Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T01:06:26Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:07:08Z Bicyclidine: nah, just let me do all this asdf crapola 2015-11-25T01:08:30Z Bicyclidine: Getting an undefined package error, that makes very little sense 2015-11-25T01:09:48Z Bicyclidine: because of a typo. oops. 2015-11-25T01:10:35Z Bicyclidine: ok. loads fine with (:use #:named-readtables) and #:named-readtables in the asd dependencies. you should describe what "weird stuff" happens in more detail. 2015-11-25T01:10:54Z phoe_krk: hm. 2015-11-25T01:10:55Z phoe_krk: okay. 2015-11-25T01:10:58Z phoe_krk: let me reproduce the error. 2015-11-25T01:12:15Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:12:18Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-25T01:12:40Z phoe_krk: previously it gave me errors on every single colon in the text, including the comments 2015-11-25T01:12:56Z Bicyclidine: Glad I could fix your problem 2015-11-25T01:13:01Z phoe_krk: and stuff about package "(something" not existing 2015-11-25T01:13:05Z phoe_krk: oh welp 2015-11-25T01:13:11Z phoe_krk: thanks for fixing my problem, 2015-11-25T01:14:40Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:17:48Z dto joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:19:08Z phoe_krk: ...Bicyclidine. I have it again. 2015-11-25T01:19:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:19:30Z phoe_krk: Add this after the initial (in-package): 2015-11-25T01:19:40Z phoe_krk: (defreadtable :pseudonyms (:macro-char #\$ 'pseudonym-reader)) (in-readtable :pseudonyms) 2015-11-25T01:19:45Z phoe_krk: And try compiling. 2015-11-25T01:19:52Z phoe_krk: Or quickloading. 2015-11-25T01:21:17Z Bicyclidine: A readtable named PSEUDONYMS does not exist. 2015-11-25T01:21:23Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:21:57Z Bicyclidine: also i'm not sure why you'd want to in-readtable in that file? 2015-11-25T01:22:12Z phoe_krk: The reader macro fiddles with the default readtable, right? 2015-11-25T01:22:17Z Guest95609 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:22:22Z Bicyclidine: well not "also", that's why it's happening. 2015-11-25T01:22:37Z phoe_krk: not "also"? 2015-11-25T01:22:48Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: i'm not familiar with named-readtables but i'm guessing you can just remove the set-macro-character in your code along with in-readtable. 2015-11-25T01:22:58Z Fare: phoe_krk, see also reader-interception 2015-11-25T01:22:59Z Bicyclidine: since defreadtable presumably sets the reader macro for you. 2015-11-25T01:23:10Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I have it commented out. 2015-11-25T01:23:22Z Bicyclidine: well i don't! 2015-11-25T01:23:38Z Bicyclidine: anyway, yeah, it loads fine if you remove those. 2015-11-25T01:24:07Z phoe_krk: if I remove these named-readtables lines? 2015-11-25T01:24:09Z phoe_krk: yes 2015-11-25T01:24:21Z Bicyclidine: No, you can keep defreadtable. 2015-11-25T01:25:09Z phoe_krk: Oohhhhhhhhhhh. 2015-11-25T01:25:13Z phoe_krk: (:merge :standard) 2015-11-25T01:25:27Z Bicyclidine: probably also good. 2015-11-25T01:27:20Z Bicyclidine: hm, i don't know how to recover from readtable going to shit like this, other than restarting. funky 2015-11-25T01:28:50Z Bicyclidine: well, i can read/evaluate normal expressions and also $foo:bar tells me to fix my shit, so i'd say it's working. 2015-11-25T01:29:06Z Bicyclidine: so don't in-readtable. 2015-11-25T01:31:14Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:32:23Z Fare: Bicyclidine, in-readtable is fine 2015-11-25T01:32:38Z Fare: as long as your readtable isn't too f-ed up 2015-11-25T01:33:07Z phoe_krk: ooh, I got it. 2015-11-25T01:33:08Z Fare: but before you in-readtable, you can try it out with (let ((*readtable* ...)) ...) 2015-11-25T01:33:12Z phoe_krk: I was using it wrong. 2015-11-25T01:33:14Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-25T01:33:21Z Bicyclidine: Fare: i mean in this specific context 2015-11-25T01:33:27Z phoe_krk: wrong, all along. 2015-11-25T01:33:54Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk was doing in-readtable in the code defining their reader macros despite not using those reader macros. 2015-11-25T01:34:19Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I needed to learn how to use named-readtables first 2015-11-25T01:34:22Z phoe_krk: how it's working. 2015-11-25T01:34:28Z phoe_krk: how it works. 2015-11-25T01:34:43Z phoe_krk: the thing is. 2015-11-25T01:35:54Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:36:29Z phoe_krk: right now every piece of code that wants to use my pseudonyms has to call (named-readtables:in-readtable :pseudonyms) 2015-11-25T01:36:43Z phoe_krk: which is somewhat... long 2015-11-25T01:36:56Z Bicyclidine: it's normal. 2015-11-25T01:37:02Z Bicyclidine: also like, a line. they can manage 2015-11-25T01:37:07Z Guest95609 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:40:25Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:42:00Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T01:42:17Z phoe_krk: okay, I figured that out 2015-11-25T01:42:39Z phoe_krk: Let's say a function prints something. What is the quickest way to silence it? 2015-11-25T01:42:52Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:43:50Z Bicyclidine: bind *standard-output* to (make-broadcast-stream) around the call, if that's the stream it prints to 2015-11-25T01:44:19Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:44:22Z LucyParsons quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T01:45:59Z phoe_krk: oh, wait, it's a WARNING. 2015-11-25T01:46:24Z Bicyclidine: can you fix whatever it's warning for, then 2015-11-25T01:46:39Z phoe_krk: WARNING: Overwriting already existing readtable #. 2015-11-25T01:46:53Z Bicyclidine: oh. yeah, who cares then. 2015-11-25T01:46:56Z phoe_krk: It's a feature, not a bug. 2015-11-25T01:47:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:47:15Z phoe_krk: and I'd like that to calm down when I call a macro that does *precisely* this. 2015-11-25T01:47:50Z Bicyclidine: what macro is that? 2015-11-25T01:48:41Z phoe_krk: ...ooooh, binding *error-output* instead is what I want 2015-11-25T01:48:53Z phoe_krk: let me paste 2015-11-25T01:49:24Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160693 2015-11-25T01:49:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:49:52Z Bicyclidine: why are you redefining the entire readtable? 2015-11-25T01:50:07Z Bicyclidine: i don't think that's how named-readtables is meant to work. 2015-11-25T01:50:09Z phoe_krk: basically, this redefines the readtable with a user-chosen character for triggering the reader macro 2015-11-25T01:51:04Z Bicyclidine: i think you can just use set-macro-character for that? 2015-11-25T01:51:13Z phoe_krk: set-macro-character? 2015-11-25T01:51:26Z phoe_krk: and that will work only for *my* named-readtable? 2015-11-25T01:51:30Z phoe_krk: and not for a global one or something? 2015-11-25T01:51:45Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:51:46Z Bicyclidine: you can pass a readtable to set-macro-character 2015-11-25T01:52:01Z phoe_krk: ...ooh. 2015-11-25T01:52:05Z phoe_krk: now, that changes the thing. 2015-11-25T01:52:31Z Bicyclidine: so something like (defun set-pseudonym-macro-character (char) (set-macro-character char 'pseudonym-reader t-or-nil-i-forget (named-readtables:find-readtable :pseudonyms))) 2015-11-25T01:52:58Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-25T01:54:35Z phoe_krk: nowwwwww. that works. 2015-11-25T01:54:50Z Bicyclidine: of course it will keep the old character 2015-11-25T01:55:15Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-25T01:55:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:55:22Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-25T01:55:28Z phoe_krk: this is *not* what I want it to be 2015-11-25T01:56:16Z phoe_krk: I don't want multiple characters for that. just one. 2015-11-25T01:56:39Z Bicyclidine: well, keep track of which character it's on, and add a removal of the macro character in set-pseudonym-macro-character. 2015-11-25T01:57:10Z phoe_krk: How do I remove macro characters? 2015-11-25T01:57:48Z Bicyclidine: have the function argument to set-macro-character be NIL. 2015-11-25T01:58:23Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-25T01:59:41Z phoe_krk: closures <3 2015-11-25T02:00:22Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160693#1 2015-11-25T02:00:22Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T02:04:05Z phoe_krk: let over defun, this is such a simple way 2015-11-25T02:08:09Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:14:15Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T02:15:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:20:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T02:23:08Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:28:46Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T02:29:10Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T02:30:58Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:31:27Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:35:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T02:37:31Z phoe_krk: ...guys, I think I did it. https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms seems like I worked out all the kinks mentioned so far 2015-11-25T02:39:11Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-25T02:40:22Z vydd 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2015-11-25T04:09:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-25T04:09:15Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-25T04:10:36Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:12:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T04:19:51Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-25T04:20:03Z phax joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:21:13Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:24:08Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T04:27:38Z Oladon: Evening beach 2015-11-25T04:28:20Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:32:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:38:47Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T04:39:32Z nicdev joined #lisp 2015-11-25T04:39:54Z Lord_of_- quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2015-11-25T04:41:04Z youngbaks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T04:53:17Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-25T05:04:40Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-25T05:08:01Z NeverDie quit (Quit: 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Garnet's interactors? 2015-11-25T07:47:01Z jlarocco quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T07:47:02Z PuercoPop: nvm I just saw what input methods means 2015-11-25T07:48:05Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T07:48:15Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T07:51:34Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T07:52:47Z PHP_Virtuoso quit 2015-11-25T07:52:51Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T07:53:07Z PHP_Virtuoso joined #lisp 2015-11-25T07:54:22Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T07:55:39Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T07:57:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T07:57:46Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T07:57:47Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-25T07:59:38Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T08:00:33Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-25T08:04:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T08:05:16Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T08:05:22Z grouzen 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-25T10:56:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-25T10:57:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T10:58:14Z ukari: (values-list '(1 2 3)) returns values in multi lines, how to get list values just in the same line? 2015-11-25T11:01:40Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T11:03:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:03:25Z flip214: ukari: (list 1 2 3)? 2015-11-25T11:04:40Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:04:51Z ukari: i wanna remove quotes of (1 2 3) 2015-11-25T11:05:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:06:07Z loke: ukari: You are probably confused with the difference between actual data, and the printed represetnation of that data. 2015-11-25T11:07:38Z loke: ukari: I will give you the answer, but you should understand what it is you're actually doing. 2015-11-25T11:07:43Z loke: (format t "~{~a~^ ~}" '(1 2 3)) 2015-11-25T11:10:32Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T11:10:33Z ukari: this returns nil, while it could shows 1 2 3 2015-11-25T11:10:59Z ukari: i will try that in macro 2015-11-25T11:11:34Z cadadar1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-25T11:12:30Z loke: ukari: It returns nil, but PRINTS 1 2 3 2015-11-25T11:12:42Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:13:03Z loke: ukari: You can replace the "t" with "nil" in the form I gave you and it will instead print nothing, but return a _string_ containing the characters "1 2 3" 2015-11-25T11:13:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T11:14:08Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:16:07Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T11:16:10Z ukari: (defun F (&rest args) (* (values-list args))),i wanna (F 2 3 4) return 24 2015-11-25T11:16:41Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:17:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:17:53Z arnsholt: ukari: You want (apply #'* args) 2015-11-25T11:18:21Z loke: or (reduce #'* args) 2015-11-25T11:18:49Z loke: If the list is longer than a handful of elements, you definitely want #'reduce 2015-11-25T11:19:50Z ukari: reduce wont work if (defun F (x y z) (* (- x y) z)) 2015-11-25T11:20:24Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:21:35Z ukari: (defun Partial (Fn X) #'(lambda (&rest args) (funcall Fn X (values-list args)))) 2015-11-25T11:21:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:22:22Z ecraven: is the reason why no-one has built a lisp machine system like Genera recently that it's too complex (to be built as open source), or that there were problems with it that don't make it viable? 2015-11-25T11:24:49Z Zhivago: My understanding is that the benefits of insane hardware disappeared as optimizing compilers got better and commodity cpus became more powerful. 2015-11-25T11:25:27Z Zhivago: And then you have six billion very boring drivers to write. 2015-11-25T11:25:49Z Zhivago: So, why bother when a unix process gives you a decent virtual machine to run in? 2015-11-25T11:28:46Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T11:34:12Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:34:37Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:36:05Z danlentz_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T11:36:56Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-25T11:38:33Z ukari: loke:paste.lisp.org/+3g10, wow, i finish that function 2015-11-25T11:39:06Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:39:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-25T11:39:25Z josteink: ukari: yeah. and it looks super-pretty in emacs lisp :P 2015-11-25T11:39:42Z josteink: that sort of stuff does IMO look way better in clojure, haskell or just about anything else :) 2015-11-25T11:40:22Z josteink: usually those constructs are used to prettify code or make things more convenient, clear or concise. I cant say I think the emacs-lisp variant does those things :P 2015-11-25T11:42:30Z ukari: josteink:yes, slime is handy 2015-11-25T11:43:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T11:46:15Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T11:53:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T11:57:51Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T11:58:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:01:36Z cadadar1 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:05:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T12:06:00Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:06:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:06:43Z cadadar1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T12:15:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:17:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T12:17:56Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:19:26Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T12:19:28Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:21:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:37:25Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:39:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:41:07Z neurostorm joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:44:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T12:48:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-25T12:50:05Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T12:50:25Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:51:25Z arademaker quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T12:52:22Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-25T12:58:18Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:01:34Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:06:36Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:10:32Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:11:35Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:13:13Z ZabaQ: What does #++ do? #+ is a conditional, and then + is a function. I'm confused. 2015-11-25T13:13:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-25T13:15:07Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-25T13:16:04Z jackdaniel: #++ will probably check, if '+ is in *features* 2015-11-25T13:20:35Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:21:23Z pjb: jackdaniel: wrong. 2015-11-25T13:21:32Z pjb: ZabaQ: it tests whether :+ is in *features*. 2015-11-25T13:21:56Z pjb: the feature expression read after #+ and #- is read in the KEYWORD package. 2015-11-25T13:22:15Z ZabaQ: Ah. 2015-11-25T13:22:22Z ZabaQ: Weird. 2015-11-25T13:22:23Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:23:16Z warweasle: pjb: Is +, ++, +++ and the * variants part of common lisp or just slime? 2015-11-25T13:23:24Z pjb: #+(#.(cl:if (cl:= cl-user::*version* 42) :and :or)) only-for-version-42 2015-11-25T13:23:30Z pjb: warweasle: clhs ++ 2015-11-25T13:24:55Z warweasle: web is down at the moment. 2015-11-25T13:25:20Z pjb: It's standard CL REPL features. + ++ +++ - * ** *** / // /// 2015-11-25T13:25:45Z pjb: ++ and +++ are the only exception to the +x+ defconstant convention :-) 2015-11-25T13:25:52Z warweasle: pjb: neat. 2015-11-25T13:26:35Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:27:18Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:27:26Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T13:28:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:36:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:39:26Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:40:32Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:40:39Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:42:40Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:42:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:43:45Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-25T13:45:16Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:50:56Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:51:32Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:55:36Z sdfdsfsds joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:55:40Z sdfdsfsds quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T13:56:47Z itPuffinB joined #lisp 2015-11-25T13:58:22Z fraya left #lisp 2015-11-25T13:59:01Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T13:59:46Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T14:00:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T14:00:28Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:01:28Z itPuffinB quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T14:01:35Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-25T14:02:32Z itPuffinB joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:02:49Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:03:12Z itPuffinB is now known as BitPuffin 2015-11-25T14:03:49Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-25T14:04:14Z j0kee joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:04:29Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:06:17Z j0kee is now known as j0k 2015-11-25T14:06:28Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:06:42Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:07:16Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:07:58Z neurostorm quit 2015-11-25T14:08:00Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T14:08:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-25T14:09:10Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T14:10:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Dead serious. Don't dare speak of something else than Common Lisp here. There's #lispcafe for your random ramblings. 2015-11-25T15:12:04Z j0k: pjb, serious, thx 2015-11-25T15:12:16Z j0k: \join ##lisp 2015-11-25T15:12:29Z pjb: Aw, a MS-Windows user. :-( 2015-11-25T15:13:07Z j0k: pjb my last 6 years were on gentoo 2015-11-25T15:13:16Z j0k: inside stumpwm 2015-11-25T15:14:48Z loke_`: I've tried to start using stumpwm, but the defaults are so unbearable that I can't even use it long enough to reconfigure it :-) 2015-11-25T15:14:50Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:15:13Z gilez is now known as Guest17356 2015-11-25T15:16:18Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T15:16:27Z Shinmera: I've had the same experience. 2015-11-25T15:17:47Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:18:06Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:18:37Z oGMo: i found clfswm better but sadly it doesn't support traditional multihead 2015-11-25T15:18:50Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:19:00Z oGMo: also needs a ton of configuring, but 2015-11-25T15:19:36Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:19:50Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-25T15:19:56Z Guest17356 is now known as gilez_ 2015-11-25T15:20:29Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:21:42Z pjb: There's an emacs lisp VM too. 2015-11-25T15:21:50Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:22:14Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T15:22:55Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:23:16Z balle joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:26:28Z warweasle: loke_`: Same here. 2015-11-25T15:28:33Z gilez_ is now known as gilez 2015-11-25T15:29:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:29:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:32:13Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:32:44Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:35:01Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:35:28Z warweasle: I have a package which uses a local let to create a known variable: *context*. But it's only available in package:*context*. Can I use eval-when to expose this as a local in the current package? 2015-11-25T15:36:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:36:50Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:38:18Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:38:20Z j0k: loke, what X are using now? 2015-11-25T15:38:28Z j0k: instead of stumpwm 2015-11-25T15:43:43Z lisp896 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:44:18Z rpg: warweasle: sounds like you want to use DEFVAR and export the variable name. 2015-11-25T15:44:37Z rpg: warweasle: You can still *bind* the variable with LET 2015-11-25T15:45:37Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:46:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T15:46:30Z dfcat joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:48:17Z lisp896: Hi. I am new to Lisp and I want to push a cons object into a vector (by means of vector-push, then). But I have been getting this error: puu.sh/lyi6O.png 2015-11-25T15:48:26Z lisp896: Would someone care to explain why it is so? 2015-11-25T15:48:48Z lisp896: http://puu.sh/lyi6O.png 2015-11-25T15:49:09Z White_Flame: warweasle: generally you'd import the package of *context* into your "current" package when you want it available simply by name 2015-11-25T15:49:13Z H4ns: lisp896: you're not trying to push to a vector, but to a cons. 2015-11-25T15:49:14Z White_Flame: "use" the package 2015-11-25T15:49:30Z H4ns: lisp896: use paste.lisp.org, paste your code. 2015-11-25T15:49:50Z rpg: lisp896: Yes, you have shown us only the error message, not what you were doing. 2015-11-25T15:49:57Z lisp896: H4ns: That is not code, though. 2015-11-25T15:50:17Z lisp896: But yes, you are right, I got the parameter order wrong. Thank you H4ns. 2015-11-25T15:50:22Z rpg: lisp896: the stuff you typed at the REPL is code. 2015-11-25T15:53:51Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:55:37Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:58:01Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T15:59:09Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T16:01:34Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:06:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:07:19Z mwcampbell joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:07:33Z mwcampbell: Is Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp still a good starting point for a Lisp newbie? 2015-11-25T16:08:14Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:08:28Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:09:14Z H4ns: it is still the best if you have prior programming experience 2015-11-25T16:09:17Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-25T16:09:43Z mwcampbell: I do 2015-11-25T16:10:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T16:10:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:11:43Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:14:06Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:14:58Z ryan_vw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T16:15:52Z mwcampbell quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-25T16:16:07Z mwcampbell joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:16:14Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:16:42Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:17:23Z mwcampbell quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T16:19:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:20:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:23:10Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:23:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:23:51Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:25:56Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:26:01Z alexherbo2 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T16:27:47Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:27:50Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:29:36Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:29:36Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:31:58Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T16:32:31Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:33:05Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:34:06Z mishoo__ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-11-25T16:35:25Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:36:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:36:24Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-25T16:38:08Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:38:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:39:13Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-25T16:41:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:42:48Z Fade: after you go through PCL, PAIP is a good followup. 2015-11-25T16:43:03Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:43:17Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-25T16:46:05Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:47:35Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:47:37Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:48:07Z shka: ave 2015-11-25T16:48:13Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:49:29Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:50:08Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T16:50:14Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:51:11Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:52:15Z phoe_krk: pjb, a long time ago you gave me a http://paste.lisp.org/display/160757 as an example of a functional program. I don't understand why the main function has ":for state := (initial-state)". I don't want to have the program return to its initial state in the beginning. I want it to run off the state it returned previously. 2015-11-25T16:54:50Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T16:54:53Z pjb: phoe_krk: right. 2015-11-25T16:55:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: Perhaps it's early morning. Try to drink some coffee or strong tea, and think about it. 2015-11-25T16:55:25Z phoe_krk: It's 17:55. 2015-11-25T16:55:30Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-11-25T16:56:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T16:56:20Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T16:56:50Z phoe_krk: Hm. Okay, so. 2015-11-25T16:57:43Z pjb: phoe_krk: (loop :repeat 10 :for x := 0 :then (+ 1 x) :collect x) #| --> (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) |# 2015-11-25T16:58:13Z phoe_krk: Yes, I think I understand it. 2015-11-25T16:58:51Z phoe_krk: And I think my problem is elsewhere. 2015-11-25T16:59:21Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:00:13Z phoe_krk: Within an imperative program, I'd create a variable holding some data I need to retain between loops, such as a list of players on a map. Within a functional program, I'm lost and I have no idea where or how to store that data. 2015-11-25T17:00:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-25T17:00:15Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: "for x = y then z" is different than "for x = y" 2015-11-25T17:00:28Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: OH 2015-11-25T17:00:35Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: holy cow 2015-11-25T17:00:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: you don't store data. 2015-11-25T17:00:45Z pjb: phoe_krk: you return a new value. 2015-11-25T17:00:46Z phoe_krk: pjb: nevermind 2015-11-25T17:00:56Z phoe_krk: I just got enlightened on how a Lisp loop macro works 2015-11-25T17:01:23Z phoe_krk: now it makes sense. 2015-11-25T17:01:51Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:01:52Z phoe_krk: my mind somehow ended up thinking these two ":then" actually did ":do" 2015-11-25T17:02:08Z phoe_krk: now it makes sense. 2015-11-25T17:02:22Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:02:22Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-25T17:02:22Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:02:34Z pjb: Notice that you can also do it as: (defun f (pgm state) (unless (finalp state) (f pgm (funcall pgm state)))) (f (function your-program) (initial-state)) 2015-11-25T17:03:04Z pjb: phoe_krk: add handling of I/O in F, and you've done it without LOOP and without mutation at all. 2015-11-25T17:04:46Z shka actually prefers to loop, but whatever 2015-11-25T17:04:50Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:05:09Z phoe_krk: pjb: tail-recursion, seems fun 2015-11-25T17:05:41Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T17:06:05Z phoe_krk: pjb: I'll stick to the loop version for now, seems much more verbose and I need verbose things right now for learning. 2015-11-25T17:07:25Z pjb: Something like: http://paste.lisp.org/+3G1H/1 2015-11-25T17:09:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:09:36Z rpg: phoe_krk: FWIW, I recommend the ITERATE macro over LOOP. ITERATE has lispy syntax and interacts more happily with lots of stuff in the ecosystem. 2015-11-25T17:09:45Z phoe_krk: clhs unless 2015-11-25T17:09:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm 2015-11-25T17:09:56Z phoe_krk: rpg: I' 2015-11-25T17:09:57Z rpg: The LOOP branching structure is an Abomination Unto God. 2015-11-25T17:10:09Z phoe_krk: rpg: I'll check it out soon enough, thanks 2015-11-25T17:10:49Z shka: rpg: i actually also prefer iterate 2015-11-25T17:11:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:11:34Z rpg: I work with a bunch of other lisp programmers, and LOOP made for really unreadable code because everyone would do somethign like (LOOP for..... do (complicated structure)) 2015-11-25T17:11:36Z shka: but it is the same concept as loop 2015-11-25T17:11:51Z shka: heh 2015-11-25T17:12:02Z shka: that's what people do in java ALL THE TIME 2015-11-25T17:12:03Z rpg: So you'd have to mentally strip away the iteration stuff from loop and then read what was going on in the monster DO. 2015-11-25T17:13:05Z rpg: The only thing worse than that was when we tried to really use the LOOP body constructs, and then we'd get totally unreadable nested IF-THEN-ELSE structures. 2015-11-25T17:15:47Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:18:36Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-25T17:21:42Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:24:34Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:25:00Z schaueho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T17:25:22Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:28:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:28:56Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:29:43Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:30:22Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T17:31:19Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:31:43Z Gevurah joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:31:54Z Gevurah: Hello 2015-11-25T17:32:59Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-25T17:33:34Z Gevurah: I'm learning my first programming language. I don't have a computer science education (only work experience with IT). Is Lisp a good place to start? 2015-11-25T17:36:15Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:36:15Z dwchandler: Gevurah: Lisp is a fine place to start! See https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-11-25T17:37:11Z dwchandler: At the bottom of that page is a link to PDF of the book 2015-11-25T17:38:02Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-25T17:38:09Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:39:47Z Gevurah: Sorry one sec (at work) 2015-11-25T17:40:00Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:40:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:41:31Z rpg: dwchandler: Is that Touretzky's book? 2015-11-25T17:41:38Z rpg: I'm not sure that's the one I would recommend.... 2015-11-25T17:41:42Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T17:42:09Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-25T17:42:27Z pjb: rpg: yes, this is the one to recommend to a non-programmer. 2015-11-25T17:42:48Z rpg: pjb: Wow. It's /ancient/ 2015-11-25T17:42:49Z pjb: rpg: the alternative is sicp, but if they're not already programmer, they probably won't take sicp either. 2015-11-25T17:42:56Z pjb: rpg: so what? 2015-11-25T17:43:06Z rpg: Pre-ASDF, pre open source movement, etc. 2015-11-25T17:43:11Z phoe_krk: pjb: "you can learn Lisp in a day, unless you know Fortran, at which it's three days" 2015-11-25T17:43:13Z pjb: Again, so what? 2015-11-25T17:43:29Z rpg: pjb: The language hasn't changed, but the pragmatics of using it are completely different. 2015-11-25T17:43:36Z pjb: When you don't know anything about programming, you don't start by learning asdf and open source. 2015-11-25T17:43:40Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:43:43Z phoe_krk: ^ 2015-11-25T17:43:47Z pjb: You start by learning (car (list 'a 'b)) and (+ 2 3). 2015-11-25T17:44:22Z rpg: pjb: I don't think I'd try learning any more than a day's worth of lisp without learning Emacs at the same time. 2015-11-25T17:44:38Z dwchandler: rpg: so what would you recommend? 2015-11-25T17:44:44Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:45:00Z pjb: rpg: again, for newbies, emacs doesn't matter much. You can as well put them at clisp REPL in a terminal (or at rlwrap ccl). 2015-11-25T17:45:16Z pjb: readline editing is all editing a newbie may need, and even… 2015-11-25T17:45:20Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:45:24Z rpg: pjb: For a newbie, I guess I'd be inclined to suggest either SICP or How to Design Programs + Dr. Racket. 2015-11-25T17:45:26Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T17:45:53Z pjb: rpg: furthermore, this #lisp, not #scheme. 2015-11-25T17:46:08Z rpg: I love CL and use it instead of Scheme, but that doesn't make it a good language for a starting programmer (even if this is #lisp, not #scheme) 2015-11-25T17:46:09Z dwchandler: SICP is great, but maybe a bit hard for some people 2015-11-25T17:46:15Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:46:23Z rpg: dwchandler: that's what HtDP was made for. 2015-11-25T17:46:44Z pjb: rpg: of course it's a good language for a starting programmer. Better than scheme, where you don't understand why (car nil) doesn't wokr. 2015-11-25T17:47:10Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:47:44Z rpg: pjb: We're going to have to agree to disagree about that. IMO cleaner is better for a beginning teaching language. 2015-11-25T17:48:05Z pjb: rpg: my point is that you don't teach CL or scheme to a newbie. You teach subsets. 2015-11-25T17:48:11Z rpg: although, as I say, I use CL everyday myself.... 2015-11-25T17:48:13Z rpg: pjb: that 2015-11-25T17:48:16Z phoe_krk: that 2015-11-25T17:48:17Z pjb: So it doesn't matter at all. 2015-11-25T17:48:18Z phoe_krk: indeed 2015-11-25T17:48:28Z rpg: 's right, and Racket is set up to teach subsets better. 2015-11-25T17:48:46Z pjb: On the other hand, Racket teaches different languages, not really subsets. 2015-11-25T17:48:55Z phoe_krk: holy hell, we really need to work on LLTHW 2015-11-25T17:49:04Z rpg: pjb: One of the languages is a teaching subset of Scheme. 2015-11-25T17:49:07Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:49:16Z pjb: Now, Racket is made by professional teachers, so up to them, I won't say. 2015-11-25T17:49:23Z pjb: But when I'm teaching, I'll be teaching CL. 2015-11-25T17:49:54Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:49:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T17:50:18Z rpg: pjb: The presence of a teacher is more important than the tool, IMO. You need to be more fussy about the tool if you are going to be self-taught, because you don't have the teaching resource to help you over the fussy details. 2015-11-25T17:51:05Z rpg: any practical language vs. teaching language/subset will have a lot of fussy details for the language lawyers. 2015-11-25T17:51:22Z phoe_krk: rpg: I'm mostly self-taught, and I ended up writing ANSI CL to get my CL basics covered. In the very very beginning, I began by Dr. Racket and Scheme itself, moving onto CL when I understood what cars, cdrs and higher order functions are. 2015-11-25T17:52:06Z pjb: rpg: Again, this is not what newbies are up against. Their problems are dealing with the debugger and other implementation, platform and system specific stuff. 2015-11-25T17:52:09Z rpg: phoe_krk: ah, then you are likely to be ready. If you are moving on CL, I'd suggest you look into the pragmatics of the language some (e.g., working with Emacs). 2015-11-25T17:52:11Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:52:48Z phoe_krk: rpg: I'm not a total newbie anymore. :P 2015-11-25T17:53:08Z rpg: phoe_krk: then you might consider Practical Common Lisp. 2015-11-25T17:53:18Z phoe_krk: rpg: I'm actively using it right now. 2015-11-25T17:53:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:53:49Z phoe_krk: Again, my CL beginnings were Graham's ANSI CL, read head to toe. 2015-11-25T17:54:35Z rpg: phoe_krk: then you are ready to chew raw bricks, and can handle anything! 2015-11-25T17:55:09Z developernotes quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-11-25T17:55:58Z neurtcme joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:56:18Z phoe_krk: rpg :P 2015-11-25T17:57:18Z phoe_krk: hey, this functional programming is really cool 2015-11-25T17:57:37Z phoe_krk: I end up writing one-liner but actually complex subfunctions 2015-11-25T17:57:57Z phoe_krk: C would choke trying to do that thing 2015-11-25T17:58:18Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-25T17:58:30Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:01:25Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:02:18Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:04:36Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:04:36Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:05:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:07:40Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-25T18:08:29Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:08:45Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-25T18:10:00Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:10:56Z mnoonan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-25T18:13:10Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:14:42Z phoe_krk: nested alists <3 2015-11-25T18:14:58Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:15:36Z Gevurah: Well, apologies for the delay... 2015-11-25T18:15:40Z Gevurah: I read up 2015-11-25T18:16:09Z Gevurah: I already own David Touretzky's book =) 2015-11-25T18:17:57Z Gevurah: I did some research beforehand and discovered that it was a great book for someone who doesn't have any prior knowledge 2015-11-25T18:18:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:18:20Z oleo: right 2015-11-25T18:18:21Z Gevurah: But what I want/need is something that will ground me in the fundamentals 2015-11-25T18:18:35Z Gevurah: effectively offering what a compsci education would 2015-11-25T18:18:35Z oleo: that book is the fundamentals..... 2015-11-25T18:18:40Z oleo: aah 2015-11-25T18:19:08Z phoe_krk: Gevurah: let me find one thing 2015-11-25T18:19:19Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/open-source-society/computer-science 2015-11-25T18:19:26Z phoe_krk: bon appetit 2015-11-25T18:19:39Z phoe_krk: you can use any language you want in there for programming tasks. 2015-11-25T18:20:24Z phoe_krk: (personally I found it silly to implement a single-linked list inside Lisp, but hell, I did it!) 2015-11-25T18:20:36Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:20:42Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:23:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:25:50Z pjb: Gevurah: more fundamental CS stuff is to be found in sicp and taocp. 2015-11-25T18:25:56Z Gevurah: phoe_krk: thanks! will check it out 2015-11-25T18:25:58Z pjb: sicp = Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 2015-11-25T18:26:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:26:20Z Gevurah: pjb: but absolutely not in "gentle" ? 2015-11-25T18:26:42Z phoe_krk: "gentle"? 2015-11-25T18:26:46Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:26:50Z pjb: taocp = http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448475996&sr=8-1&keywords=taocp 2015-11-25T18:26:55Z Gevurah: because I can't figure out -why- I'm learning about cons cells and car/cdr 2015-11-25T18:27:03Z Gevurah: phoe_krk: Touretzky's book 2015-11-25T18:27:11Z phoe_krk: I see 2015-11-25T18:27:18Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:27:31Z pjb: Gevurah: what would you want to learn about, else than cons car and cdr? 2015-11-25T18:27:35Z phoe_krk: Gevurah: cons cells and car/cdr are the fundamentals making up Lisp. 2015-11-25T18:27:52Z phoe_krk: they're the axioms you define almost everything else against. 2015-11-25T18:27:55Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:27:58Z Gevurah: sorry brb 2015-11-25T18:28:06Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:28:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:29:15Z neurtcme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:30:08Z phoe_krk: Gevurah: cons cells can be formed up to make up lists, and Lisp's name originally came from LISt Processing. Lisp itself is made out of lists, which are made of cons cells, which have a car and a cdr - and the understanding starts from the beginning here. 2015-11-25T18:31:20Z dwchandler: Gevurah: Teaching a complex subject from scratch is difficult. The approach of "look, just learn these bits and we'll explain why later, but we can start DOING something NOW once you learn these" isn't bad. 2015-11-25T18:31:21Z oceanpollen: anyway, five minutes later, you're done learning about them. 2015-11-25T18:32:22Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:33:13Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:38:11Z warweasle quit (Quit: Wizard needs food badly.) 2015-11-25T18:38:22Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:38:31Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:38:49Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T18:39:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:39:26Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:40:13Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:43:19Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:44:30Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T18:48:11Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-25T18:51:37Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:53:09Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:55:43Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T18:56:42Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:56:52Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:57:29Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-25T18:58:50Z jasom: Gevurah: Not all compsci educations are the same; some are more comp-sci, others are more focused on teaching programming 2015-11-25T18:58:50Z developernotes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T19:00:19Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-25T19:01:15Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:01:44Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:09:15Z zotherstupidguy: what kind of input/output formats popular in lisp, like ruby got yaml... 2015-11-25T19:09:28Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:09:57Z oceanpollen: s-expressions are easy to work with. 2015-11-25T19:11:44Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: there are 6 json libraries 2015-11-25T19:11:49Z youngbaks quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T19:12:18Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: for configuration files (i.e. where ruby tends to use yaml) I use lisp files. 2015-11-25T19:12:42Z shka_: why exactly don't just use, you know lisp? 2015-11-25T19:13:08Z jasom: shka_: unless I'm talking to the outside world, I do 2015-11-25T19:13:38Z shka_: right 2015-11-25T19:14:08Z shka_: isn't it possible to have mini-parser with just subset of lisp? 2015-11-25T19:14:59Z jasom: shka_: since most of the syntax of lisp is supported via read macros, it is almost trivial 2015-11-25T19:15:16Z pjb: shka_: the lisp "parser" knows only how to read integers, floating points and symbols. All the rest is reader macros. 2015-11-25T19:15:16Z jasom: shka_: but I don't care if config files can run arbitrary code, so I just use LOAD 2015-11-25T19:15:18Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T19:15:29Z pjb: So what do you want to remove? Integers? Floating points? Symbol? 2015-11-25T19:15:40Z rpg: jasom: You can tell CL not to run arbitrary code on read.... 2015-11-25T19:15:56Z jasom: rpg: but not on LOAD 2015-11-25T19:15:57Z rpg: otherwise, reader macros. 2015-11-25T19:16:30Z zotherstupidguy: jasom which one is most common for begnniners? and is it the same with commonlisp and elisp? 2015-11-25T19:17:55Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: elisp and common lisp are two different languages (though with a shared heritage) so, generally speaking, libraries for one will not work for the other 2015-11-25T19:18:05Z malbertife_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-25T19:18:41Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:18:44Z shka_: pjb: symbol, i guess 2015-11-25T19:18:54Z pjb: So no symbols. 2015-11-25T19:19:01Z pjb: (+ 2 3) is impossible. 2015-11-25T19:19:17Z shka_: never tried to do that 2015-11-25T19:19:27Z shka_: in fact, i never played with reader 2015-11-25T19:19:35Z shka_: but good to know that i can do that 2015-11-25T19:21:28Z shka_: anyway 2015-11-25T19:21:41Z shka_: I would probabbly avoid anything that is not s-expression 2015-11-25T19:21:56Z shka_: it does not feel natural 2015-11-25T19:22:39Z gilez quit (Quit: Changing server) 2015-11-25T19:22:51Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:24:20Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:25:43Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:26:06Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: what do you want to do with the data? 2015-11-25T19:26:36Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: without a doubt, using READ is the easiest to get started with 2015-11-25T19:27:49Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T19:29:38Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: you can use WRITE with *PRINT-READABLY* true to output data that is readable back in with READ. You can also hand edit and create those files using the same syntax that you would use for code. 2015-11-25T19:30:05Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-25T19:32:35Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-11-25T19:33:06Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-25T19:33:11Z lisp896: Uh, why do I get "Undefined Function" error for "number-sequence? Is it only available in a special environment? 2015-11-25T19:35:12Z shka_: what kind of function is this? 2015-11-25T19:36:41Z lisp896: www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Building-Lists.html 2015-11-25T19:38:52Z oceanpollen: well it works fine in emacs. maybe not for your version. or maybe you're assuming that's also in CL? 2015-11-25T19:40:35Z lisp896: More the latter. For some reason, it didn't occur to me it may not work in CL. 2015-11-25T19:41:45Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:43:42Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:45:45Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-25T19:46:43Z oceanpollen: nah. (loop for n from 4 upto 9 collect n) => (number-sequence 4 9) 2015-11-25T19:49:27Z jasom: oceanpollen: I think it's the only function on that page that isn't in common lisp 2015-11-25T19:49:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:49:49Z phoe_krk: lisp896: if it's not in the CLHS and not in any library, go the lisp way and define it yourself~ 2015-11-25T19:50:04Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:51:31Z yoeljacobsen joined #lisp 2015-11-25T19:51:38Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-25T19:58:38Z zotherstupidguy: jasom thanks, i will just start reading some tuts online 2015-11-25T20:00:06Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-25T20:01:43Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T20:05:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:07:46Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-25T20:13:13Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:13:37Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:14:16Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T20:14:25Z Gevurah quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-25T20:17:09Z badon_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:17:09Z badon quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-25T20:17:14Z badon_ is now known as badon 2015-11-25T20:21:46Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:22:02Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2015-11-25T20:23:22Z truecoldmind quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-25T20:23:53Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-25T20:26:33Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-11-25T20:28:28Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T20:29:01Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:29:19Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-25T20:32:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:33:07Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:33:31Z jasom: zotherstupidguy: of course it also depends on what exactly you want to do with the data. If you don't want human-editablitiy, then something like conspack or cl-store is better; if you want to send the data to a web browser, json is better; &ct. 2015-11-25T20:34:31Z pjb: /msg - pjb 2015-11-25T20:35:51Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:37:03Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-25T20:38:18Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:43:40Z youngbaks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T20:46:08Z DeadTrickster_: I'm using cl-store the only problem is slots initializing twice or something like that - when instance created and then setf'ed 2015-11-25T20:50:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-25T20:51:14Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-25T20:51:16Z rpg_ quit (Quit: rpg_) 2015-11-25T20:52:39Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-25T20:54:12Z lisp896 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-25T20:56:46Z truecoldmind quit (Quit: laptop going to sleep...) 2015-11-25T20:59:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:01:54Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:03:44Z yoeljacobsen quit (Quit: yoeljacobsen) 2015-11-25T21:05:52Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:06:35Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:06:52Z lclark quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:20:32Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:20:47Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:26:06Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-25T21:28:19Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:28:19Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-25T21:30:47Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-25T21:32:38Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:33:19Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-25T21:33:58Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:34:03Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:35:18Z namespace is now known as tentacleslut 2015-11-25T21:35:23Z tentacleslut is now known as tentacle_slut 2015-11-25T21:36:12Z tentacle_slut left #lisp 2015-11-25T21:42:37Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:44:55Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:45:54Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:46:48Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2015-11-25T21:47:13Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:47:49Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:48:07Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-25T21:48:42Z Yanez quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-25T21:52:08Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-25T21:56:38Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-25T21:57:47Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-25T22:01:53Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The best I've seen so far involves having N asdf systems for N possible configurations. 2015-11-26T00:12:57Z jasom: Example: if I have an application that could use either sqlite or postmodern, I'd like to not load the system I don't need; what I've seen done is something like defining 2 ASDF systems: my-application/sqlite and myapplication/postmodern 2015-11-26T00:18:17Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-26T00:19:08Z pillton: What about using my-application/configuration to define features. 2015-11-26T00:19:10Z pillton: ? 2015-11-26T00:19:29Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:26:25Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:27:49Z phoe_krk: holy cow, functional programming in Lisp is so *easy* 2015-11-26T00:28:04Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T00:28:10Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-26T00:28:24Z jasom: pillton: how would this work? I get the basic idea, but asdf will load all depended asdf files before loading any dependencies; would this necessarily involve two calls to asdf:load-system? 2015-11-26T00:28:41Z jasom: s/any dependencies/any lisp code/ 2015-11-26T00:29:15Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T00:29:30Z jasom: phoe_krk: yeah, which is one reason why a lot of people mistakenly refer to it as a functional language 2015-11-26T00:29:40Z pillton: jasom: Yeah. (asdf:load-system "my-application/configuration") #| User customiziation |# (asdf:load-system "my-application") 2015-11-26T00:29:45Z phoe_krk: I defined my state as a set of nested keyword-keyed alists and ended up writing a function to traverse the alist, insert a value at a position defined by a series of keywords and return a new list with that value inserted 2015-11-26T00:29:51Z phoe_krk: all in functional, pure consing 2015-11-26T00:30:21Z phoe_krk: jasom: I know about it :P even though Lisp is as functional as it's imperative or OO 2015-11-26T00:31:27Z Bicyclidine: you can probably have asdf read dynamic variables. maybe it's possible to do something like (let ((*jasomsoft-db* :sqlite)) (asdf:load-system :jasomsoft)). or read it from a file or the like. 2015-11-26T00:31:58Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:31:58Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:32:57Z jasom: Bicyclidine: at that point I could do (let ((*features* (cons :jasomsoft-sqlite *features))) (asdf:load-system :jasomsoft)) 2015-11-26T00:33:31Z jasom: I think feature flags are probably good-enough, since I can make it fail to load without them setup 2015-11-26T00:33:33Z pillton: jasom: You can push non keyword symbols on to *features*. It is recommended in this case. 2015-11-26T00:33:54Z pillton: SLIME needs to be fixed to support them though. 2015-11-26T00:33:55Z jasom: pillton: I know; I was just commenting on Bicyclidine's example. 2015-11-26T00:34:02Z Bicyclidine: right. maybe you could also set something up to let other systems depend on jasomsoft with sqlite specifically and such. 2015-11-26T00:34:03Z jasom: oh non-keyword 2015-11-26T00:37:57Z jasom: pillton: why is it recommended in this case? either way I'm polluting a global namespace (either the package namespace or keywords) 2015-11-26T00:38:17Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:38:59Z phoe_krk: hey, alists are beginning to look so beautiful the moment I nest them 2015-11-26T00:39:12Z pjb: jasom: you can have even more asd files! eg. one per component in the project. So yes, having one for each configuration wouldn't be such an outrage, given that they'd be very small and only contain configuration specific clauses, the rest being obtained thru common dependencies. 2015-11-26T00:40:01Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:40:17Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:40:51Z pillton: jasom: I'm trying to find the paper. I'd argue that pushing my-application.cfg:sqlite on to *features* isn't polluting a global namespace. 2015-11-26T00:42:09Z pillton: jasom: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.546.8709&rep=rep1&type=pdf 2015-11-26T00:43:16Z pillton: jasom: Your issue isn't a portability issue. I think you can use the same idea though. 2015-11-26T00:47:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:47:59Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:48:48Z phoe_krk: also, people, you were right, iterate looks so much cleaner than loop 2015-11-26T00:52:08Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:55:33Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T00:55:35Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:57:41Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-11-26T00:59:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T00:59:43Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:01:22Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-26T01:07:48Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:13:48Z jesse1 left #lisp 2015-11-26T01:16:49Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:17:02Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:19:53Z salva joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:20:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:22:12Z pillton: jasom: Decided yet? 2015-11-26T01:24:39Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-26T01:29:20Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:30:46Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:31:17Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:31:48Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:34:06Z salva joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:34:58Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T01:38:40Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:39:33Z PuercoPop: jasom: note that asdf has feature-expressions to specify dependencies based of *features*, so the use of #+/- is discouraged 2015-11-26T01:39:37Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:42:54Z pillton: PuercoPop: Thanks. I didn't know that. 2015-11-26T01:43:26Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:47:25Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T01:47:26Z Zotan quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-26T01:47:31Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:47:54Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:48:04Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:48:46Z pillton: PuercoPop: It is still only limited to keywords. 2015-11-26T01:49:00Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:49:23Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:49:24Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T01:49:34Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:50:13Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:50:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:51:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T01:51:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:51:56Z salva quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:52:32Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T01:52:41Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:53:10Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:56:13Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T01:56:26Z salva joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:56:42Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:56:43Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T01:57:02Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:58:14Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T01:59:32Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:00:24Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:03:33Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:04:17Z arademaker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T02:04:45Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:05:33Z arademaker joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:14:56Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:17:18Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:18:14Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:18:21Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:19:14Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:20:11Z arademaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T02:22:45Z Guest66469 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:22:59Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:25:55Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:27:45Z phoe_krk: writing subfunctions in Lisp feels so completely different than writing in raw C or even C++ 2015-11-26T02:28:01Z dickle joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:28:20Z phoe_krk: it's like, the language lives as you write 2015-11-26T02:28:53Z loke: phoe_krk: What is a "subfunction"? 2015-11-26T02:29:04Z phoe_krk: loke: functions 2015-11-26T02:29:21Z blubjr: like flet 2015-11-26T02:29:21Z phoe_krk: I meant, like, an analogy to C subroutines 2015-11-26T02:29:23Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:29:24Z blubjr: oh 2015-11-26T02:29:50Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-26T02:29:51Z phoe_krk: including labels 2015-11-26T02:29:55Z phoe_krk: let and so on 2015-11-26T02:30:49Z phoe_krk: hm 2015-11-26T02:30:57Z phoe_krk: is labels essentially flet*? 2015-11-26T02:31:18Z Bicyclidine: more like fletrec, but there's no letrec so it's a bit confusing. 2015-11-26T02:31:30Z phoe_krk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9105870/whats-the-difference-between-flet-and-labels-in-common-lisp 2015-11-26T02:31:36Z Bicyclidine: in that you can refer not only to previous bindings, but to the current binding. 2015-11-26T02:31:43Z phoe_krk: got it 2015-11-26T02:32:07Z Bicyclidine: and to later bindings, actually. duh 2015-11-26T02:32:29Z loke: You can also refer to future bindings in the same LABELS form 2015-11-26T02:32:37Z blubjr: i think you should use flet if you can 2015-11-26T02:32:46Z blubjr: it makes for simpler reading, like let vs let* 2015-11-26T02:32:47Z loke: In other words, this prints Z: 2015-11-26T02:32:47Z loke: (labels ((x () (y)) (y () (print 'z))) (x)) 2015-11-26T02:34:47Z phoe_krk: blubjr: let is easier to read? I find let* much easier to use and understand, once I read it whole 2015-11-26T02:35:15Z phoe_krk: when I want to cascadingly define local variables 2015-11-26T02:36:28Z loke: phoe_krk: I think the argument is that if you see a huge LET-form with ten or so variable declarations, I can look at one of them and not having to bother about the others when determining what it does. 2015-11-26T02:36:31Z blubjr: you can pick any clause in let and read it independently, let* you have to read the entire bindings top to bottom 2015-11-26T02:36:44Z loke: If it's LET*, I have to look at the preceeding bindings first. 2015-11-26T02:37:50Z phoe_krk: loke: if your names collide, which I avoid. 2015-11-26T02:38:15Z blubjr: its just mutation in general 2015-11-26T02:38:22Z blubjr: let* is a warning that you have to read carefully 2015-11-26T02:38:29Z phoe_krk: oh, wait, that 2015-11-26T02:38:46Z loke: I wrote this LET* form once: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160798 2015-11-26T02:38:48Z phoe_krk: loke: I get it 2015-11-26T02:38:58Z phoe_krk: let*, easier to write, let, easier to read 2015-11-26T02:39:08Z phoe_krk: ...precisely 2015-11-26T02:39:16Z phoe_krk: I bet it would be one hell to rewrite this as a let 2015-11-26T02:39:31Z loke: (granted, it's a port of some mathematician's code, and we all know the horrible code maths people write) 2015-11-26T02:43:17Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:43:23Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:43:29Z phoe_krk: ...let*, easier to write. let, easier to read. 2015-11-26T02:43:32Z phoe_krk: I'll stand by that. 2015-11-26T02:44:02Z loke: phoe_krk: I thnk most people would agree with that. But there's also the argument that most code is read more often than it's written. 2015-11-26T02:44:15Z loke: Unless it's TECO of course 2015-11-26T02:44:17Z loke: Or APL 2015-11-26T02:45:02Z Zhivago: I'm not sure that I'd agree with that. 2015-11-26T02:45:16Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:45:25Z Zhivago: But I'd certainly say that the only time you tend to read code is when something goes wrong. 2015-11-26T02:45:28Z phoe_krk: loke: I haven't written a huge let* like that before, mostly it's just two or three values chained together. And within my let*s, I could easily separate the ones that aren't chained at all so they could go under a plain let. 2015-11-26T02:45:33Z Zhivago: And at such times, clarity is a distinct boon. 2015-11-26T02:45:43Z phoe_krk: Zhivago: or when you try to understand another person's code. 2015-11-26T02:45:52Z phoe_krk: And at such times, clarity is a distinct boon as well. 2015-11-26T02:46:01Z Zhivago: Which generally you don't care about unless it doesn't work as expected. 2015-11-26T02:46:14Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:46:17Z phoe_krk: Zhivago: or when you want to extend it. 2015-11-26T02:46:21Z Zhivago: So it is most important for bad code to be written well. :) 2015-11-26T02:47:20Z phoe_krk: I'm proud of myself 2015-11-26T02:47:38Z ekinmur quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:47:40Z phoe_krk: I have these big blobs of data that I needed to store somewhere in order for my functions to be able to operate on them. 2015-11-26T02:47:57Z Zhivago: I'd put them in files, if possible. 2015-11-26T02:48:05Z phoe_krk: Yeah, but I ended up storing them in a let over these functions. 2015-11-26T02:48:30Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:48:36Z phoe_krk: Like (let ((huge-data ...)) (defun huge-data-operating-function ...)) 2015-11-26T02:48:46Z Guest66469 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:48:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:48:52Z Zhivago: That should make your garbage collector happy. 2015-11-26T02:49:09Z Zhivago: Why not use a special variable instead? 2015-11-26T02:50:13Z phoe_krk: It's just under 4 kB, come on. :P Big enough for me to call it big. 2015-11-26T02:51:32Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T02:51:41Z Zhivago: I wouldn't even consider that to be small. 2015-11-26T02:52:05Z phoe_krk: Relativity. 2015-11-26T02:52:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:52:58Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:53:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:53:52Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:54:04Z Zhivago: However, a special would make testing easier. 2015-11-26T02:54:19Z Zhivago: Is there any actual need for a lexical closure there? 2015-11-26T02:55:10Z phoe_krk: Zhivago: I don't want to put any specials there and the testing is already done, as the code is just that simple. 2015-11-26T02:55:23Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/lispfurc/blob/master/color-code.lisp 2015-11-26T02:56:28Z phoe_krk: Hell, I could even make that single function local. 2015-11-26T02:57:19Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-26T02:58:38Z phoe_krk: Which I just did. 2015-11-26T02:58:45Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-11-26T02:59:16Z Zhivago: Sounds like an improvement, perhaps. 2015-11-26T03:00:12Z dickle quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:00:27Z phoe_krk: Ahuh. One more free symbol within my package. 2015-11-26T03:03:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T03:03:42Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:03:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:04:32Z oceanpollen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T03:07:45Z phoe_krk: The moment I define a function, all arguments upon its lambda-list get evaluated, right? 2015-11-26T03:08:08Z Bicyclidine: ...what? 2015-11-26T03:08:11Z loke: phoe_krk: When you _define_ a function? No. 2015-11-26T03:08:14Z phoe_krk: Wait, wait. 2015-11-26T03:08:19Z phoe_krk: When I *call* a function. 2015-11-26T03:08:20Z loke: When you _call_ a function, yes. 2015-11-26T03:08:36Z Bicyclidine: ah, the order of things is exactly laid out somewhere. 2015-11-26T03:08:38Z phoe_krk: And when I call a macro instead, they *don't have to* be evaluated, right? 2015-11-26T03:08:43Z loke: Yes, they are evaluated in the order they are given. 2015-11-26T03:09:30Z loke: phoe_krk: They are not evaluated, no. But that's because when the macro function is called, there is nothing to evaluate. The macro is called at compile-time (usually). At execution time. 2015-11-26T03:09:37Z loke: I mean _NOT_ at execution time. 2015-11-26T03:09:40Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: a function call works like (apply function (mapcar #'eval argument-forms)). a macro call works like (funcall macro-function argument-forms environment). 2015-11-26T03:09:55Z Bicyclidine: clhs 3.1.2.1 2015-11-26T03:09:56Z specbot: Form Evaluation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aba.htm 2015-11-26T03:10:05Z loke: Bicyclidine: That's a horrible wayof describing it. 2015-11-26T03:10:09Z Bicyclidine: aww. 2015-11-26T03:10:16Z phoe_krk: Let me put it this way. 2015-11-26T03:10:17Z loke: Bicyclidine: It's not even correct. 2015-11-26T03:10:25Z Bicyclidine: No? 2015-11-26T03:11:09Z Zhivago: Macros are little compilers. 2015-11-26T03:11:09Z Bicyclidine: i just like the metacircular way of explainin'. 2015-11-26T03:11:12Z loke: Bicyclidine: It's not. Because the macro is generally executed only once, at compile time. Once the code is run, the macro in essence doesn't exist anymore. Only its expansion. 2015-11-26T03:11:23Z Zhivago: You need to look at their output code to determine the order of evaluation. 2015-11-26T03:11:24Z phoe_krk: I need something that will create an alist for me, in a following way: (alist-gen :c (:d 2) :e (:f 3)) --> ((:c . NIL) (:d . 2) (:e . NIL) (:f . 3)) 2015-11-26T03:11:33Z Bicyclidine: ok, (eval (funcall macro-function argument-forms environment)). 2015-11-26T03:11:38Z phoe_krk: *without* evaluating the things given as the arguments. 2015-11-26T03:11:43Z Bicyclidine: in an evaluator, see. 2015-11-26T03:12:28Z loke: phoe_krk: You mean something like (loop for (x y) on THE-LIST by #'cddr collect (cons x y)) 2015-11-26T03:12:54Z phoe_krk: loke: THE-LIST? you mean like &rest THE-LIST? 2015-11-26T03:13:08Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro alist-gen (&rest args) (list 'quote (mapcar (lambda (arg) (if (listp arg) (cons (first arg) (second arg)) (cons arg nil))) args))), maybe? 2015-11-26T03:13:18Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: let me see 2015-11-26T03:13:27Z loke: phoe_krk: well, THE-LIST would be the list of the things you gave above. Yes, it could come from the &REST argument in a macro. 2015-11-26T03:13:28Z Bicyclidine: though i'm not sure i understand the point. 2015-11-26T03:14:10Z loke: phoe_krk: And sorry, I misread your specification. My code won't work of course. 2015-11-26T03:14:16Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I need something that will create an alist for me from a parameter list. 2015-11-26T03:14:30Z phoe_krk: loke: it's okay, I'm just sketching out things myself so my specification might change, too 2015-11-26T03:14:56Z loke: something like what Bicyclidine would work 2015-11-26T03:15:02Z phoe_krk: hurrr 2015-11-26T03:15:07Z phoe_krk: "function :d is undefined" 2015-11-26T03:15:20Z phoe_krk: looks like I'll need to quote something. 2015-11-26T03:15:24Z phoe_krk: and I didn't want to quote anything. 2015-11-26T03:15:35Z phoe_krk: because, with quote, I might as well go defun. 2015-11-26T03:15:47Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:15:49Z loke: phoe_krk: You should use MACROEXPAND-1 to learn how macros work. Methinks. 2015-11-26T03:15:55Z phoe_krk: wait. 2015-11-26T03:15:57Z phoe_krk: wrong package. 2015-11-26T03:15:58Z phoe_krk: ;_; 2015-11-26T03:16:09Z Bicyclidine: macroexpand-1 is a godsend 2015-11-26T03:16:21Z phoe_krk: it works! Thanks. 2015-11-26T03:17:43Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-26T03:18:29Z phoe_krk: ...okay, that's a quick specification change. 2015-11-26T03:18:31Z phoe_krk thinks 2015-11-26T03:20:40Z badon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T03:24:54Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:25:36Z phcrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T03:26:19Z phcrist joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:28:48Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:28:54Z phoe_krk: sweet 2015-11-26T03:29:01Z phoe_krk: a single macro and suddenly my code is more readable 2015-11-26T03:29:35Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:31:21Z phoe_krk: ...I mean, it was readable before, but now it's concise 2015-11-26T03:31:27Z phoe_krk: and therefore more readable 2015-11-26T03:33:26Z phoe_krk: okay, night #parens 2015-11-26T03:34:33Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:35:17Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:40:10Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:41:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:43:15Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:43:43Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:43:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-26T03:48:36Z phoe_krk: beach: I just said good night ;_; 2015-11-26T03:48:51Z phoe_krk: one more question, what's the difference between (return key) and (return (values key))? 2015-11-26T03:49:38Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:49:46Z beach: None. 2015-11-26T03:50:14Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:50:35Z phoe_krk: good. one word less in defun. 2015-11-26T03:50:38Z phoe_krk: and two parens. 2015-11-26T03:50:41Z phoe_krk: thanks! 2015-11-26T03:50:47Z beach: Anytime. 2015-11-26T03:50:50Z Zhivago: The default is to return a single value, in the latter case you made this explicit. 2015-11-26T03:53:34Z briantrice joined #lisp 2015-11-26T03:54:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T03:54:54Z loke: Zhivago: Sounds useful to make things explicit. We should take that further: (print (identity (+ (identity x) (identity y)))). Always goo to be explicit about the values you're using. :-) 2015-11-26T03:55:23Z loke: Just emphasising that while what Zhivago said is true, being explicit is not always a good thing. 2015-11-26T03:57:07Z loke: Good morning beachman 2015-11-26T03:57:27Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-26T03:59:39Z beach: In the past few days I have been working on extracting the buffer code from Second Climacs into a separate library. The reason for doing that is that Second Climacs is on hold, waiting for presentation types in CLIM3/CLIMatis, and I don't have an estimated time for when that will happen. 2015-11-26T03:59:48Z beach: Anyway, I believe the buffer protocols of the buffer of Second Climacs to be good design, so I was thinking that others who work on writing editors or similar software in Common Lisp might want to have a look at it. The representation uses a splay tree of lines, but that is all hidden behind the protocols. 2015-11-26T03:59:59Z beach: The part that I am particularly pleased with is the update protocol, which allows client code (typically `views') to query the buffer for updates sine the previous one. The extraction is not complete yet, because I am also improving it a bit. I was using a recursive traversal for the update protocol, but immediately after a buffer is created from a stream, the splay tree can be very skinny, so it blew the stack of SBCL. 2015-11-26T04:00:05Z beach: For that reason, I am working on an iterative traversal routine. That work also prompted me to extract the splay-tree code into yet another separate library. 2015-11-26T04:00:06Z beach: The buffer library is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer and the library for binary trees and splay trees is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump 2015-11-26T04:01:19Z Zhivago: loke: You forgot (function +). 2015-11-26T04:06:55Z loke: Better do (funcall (function +) ...) 2015-11-26T04:07:23Z loke: And (identity (identity x)) 2015-11-26T04:07:39Z loke: (funcall (function identity) x) 2015-11-26T04:12:25Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T04:12:53Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-26T04:13:41Z Zhivago: loke: You are an inspiration to all of us. 2015-11-26T04:15:24Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-26T04:17:32Z Bicyclidine: (funcall #'funcall #'funcall #'funcall #'funcall 2015-11-26T04:20:10Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T04:20:56Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T04:23:21Z NeverDie quit (Quit: 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2015-11-26T09:42:32Z jackdaniel: what's the point of criticizing then? 2015-11-26T09:42:49Z yauz joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:43:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:43:27Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Getting people aware of problems and issues? 2015-11-26T09:43:36Z Shinmera: *Getting people to be 2015-11-26T09:43:38Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:44:47Z jackdaniel: most direct path is writing to the mailing list or directly to admin. rambling on irc is just rambling 2015-11-26T09:45:07Z Shinmera: In case you didn't notice already, you aren't exactly helping by rambling about his rambling. 2015-11-26T09:45:19Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:45:35Z jackdaniel: I'm talking directly with person who's "admin" 2015-11-26T09:45:52Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2015-11-26T09:45:54Z chavezgu joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:46:31Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T09:46:37Z zch joined #lisp 2015-11-26T09:46:38Z DeadTrickster__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T09:47:53Z gaya- 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FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:05:55Z truecoldmind joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:06:23Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:08:26Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T10:08:54Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:09:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T10:10:13Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-26T10:11:44Z namespace: http://jdpressman.com/2015/11/25/how-to-setup-a-common-lisp-web-environment-%28november%202015%29.html 2015-11-26T10:11:48Z namespace finally finished this 2015-11-26T10:12:17Z namespace: I'll add a section explaining Woo soon, which is why it's listed at the top. 2015-11-26T10:12:22Z namespace: But otherwise, any critque/comment? 2015-11-26T10:12:31Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:13:48Z C4K3 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:16:02Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T10:16:58Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:17:10Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:18:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T10:19:15Z Firedancer: namespace: Have these actually been tested on Windows? 2015-11-26T10:19:21Z namespace: Firedancer: No. 2015-11-26T10:19:31Z namespace: Firedancer: I don't have a windows machine handy to do so. 2015-11-26T10:20:05Z namespace: Which is part of why I'm asking here. 2015-11-26T10:20:06Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T10:21:03Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:21:03Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T10:21:03Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:25:17Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:26:18Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T10:27:02Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T10:27:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:28:12Z 7YUAAEJZW quit 2015-11-26T10:40:27Z wizzomafizzo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T10:40:27Z wizzomafizzo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T10:40:32Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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In the line of the util potential-number-p. stuff like a read-token would be useful for when writing reader macros like the pseudonym's proposed by phoe 2015-11-26T11:14:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:14:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T11:14:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:15:14Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:17:21Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:18:11Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T11:18:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T11:18:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:19:23Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T11:21:10Z zch quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-26T11:22:11Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:22:46Z phoe_krk: pjb: ^ 2015-11-26T11:24:13Z phoe_krk: I'd gladly use some better-thought code inside my pseudonyms 2015-11-26T11:25:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:26:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T11:27:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T11:27:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T11:29:22Z splittist: beach's Cluffer library would have been useful when I was half-writing triviil ('The Really Incomplete Vi Implementation In Lisp') 2015-11-26T11:37:14Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:46:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:49:19Z harish joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:49:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:51:32Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T11:54:19Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:55:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:55:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T11:56:18Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T11:59:49Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:00:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:00:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:01:34Z raeon left #lisp 2015-11-26T12:03:01Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T12:03:10Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:03:51Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:05:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:06:26Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-26T12:07:03Z lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 2015-11-26T12:08:34Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-26T12:09:06Z DeadTrickster__ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:09:23Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:09:26Z ukari_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:10:05Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:11:30Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:13:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:13:01Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T12:13:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:15:59Z pjb: PuercoPop: yes. time. 2015-11-26T12:17:31Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:23:53Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-11-26T12:26:12Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-26T12:30:14Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:30:17Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-26T12:31:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:31:26Z eru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:41:04Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:45:10Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:46:42Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:51:24Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:52:42Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-26T12:54:11Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T12:54:48Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:56:28Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T12:59:32Z Shinmera: Fun snippet of the day: (defun ​(​) (if (<= 1 ​ 2)​ (* ​(​(1- ​)) 1))) 2015-11-26T13:01:08Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:02:06Z phoe_krk: is it valid if you don't provide a name? 2015-11-26T13:02:47Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-26T13:03:17Z phoe_krk: you provide a name 2015-11-26T13:03:27Z phoe_krk: and the function does nothing 2015-11-26T13:03:31Z Shinmera: Nope. 2015-11-26T13:03:54Z phoe_krk: (defun name args &body body) 2015-11-26T13:03:56Z phoe_krk: name: () 2015-11-26T13:04:03Z phoe_krk: args: (if (<= 1 ​ 2)​ (* ​(​(1- ​)) 1)) 2015-11-26T13:04:05Z phoe_krk: body: nil 2015-11-26T13:04:15Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:04:18Z Shinmera: Not quite. 2015-11-26T13:04:28Z Shinmera: Copy paste it into your lisp and see what happens. 2015-11-26T13:04:32Z phoe_krk: Nothing. 2015-11-26T13:04:34Z phoe_krk: It seems. 2015-11-26T13:04:41Z phoe_krk: Just an empty line for me. 2015-11-26T13:05:18Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: you may try (funcall * 3) for your amusement 2015-11-26T13:05:26Z jackdaniel: after this empty line 2015-11-26T13:05:32Z phoe_krk: dafuq 2015-11-26T13:05:39Z Shinmera: :^) 2015-11-26T13:06:18Z phoe_krk: WARNING: redefining CL-USER::​ in DEFUN 2015-11-26T13:06:19Z phoe_krk: awesome 2015-11-26T13:06:22Z phoe_krk: how do I get rid of this now 2015-11-26T13:06:24Z phoe_krk: xD 2015-11-26T13:10:41Z Cymew: Shinmera: That one was weird... 2015-11-26T13:11:15Z Shinmera: Surprise your friends, confound your enemies! 2015-11-26T13:11:30Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:13:25Z synchromesh: ABCL seems fine with it - (funcall * 3) => 6 2015-11-26T13:13:30Z synchromesh: FWIW 2015-11-26T13:13:55Z jackdaniel: it should, unless it doesn't support unicode characters 2015-11-26T13:13:58Z Shinmera: Well if you have unicode it's perfectly valid. 2015-11-26T13:15:12Z synchromesh: Shinmera: OK, well that explains it then. :) 2015-11-26T13:17:46Z otwieracz: Hey! 2015-11-26T13:18:06Z otwieracz: I've *probably* found bug in ASDF/quicklisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160873 2015-11-26T13:18:21Z otwieracz: Could you guys please take a look? 2015-11-26T13:18:44Z otwieracz: (replacing this test-case with IOLIB gave the same results) 2015-11-26T13:18:57Z DeadTrickster__: anyone is using cl-smtp? 2015-11-26T13:19:10Z otwieracz: XachX: maybe you'll be interested: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160873 2015-11-26T13:19:31Z H4ns: otwieracz: what is the bug that you think you've found? 2015-11-26T13:19:45Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: i've used it a lot. 2015-11-26T13:19:48Z otwieracz: For me it looks like Quicklisp does not load dependencies for defsystem-dependencies. 2015-11-26T13:20:12Z otwieracz: system X has :defsystem-depends-on :Y 2015-11-26T13:20:21Z otwieracz: And :Y has :depends-on ("alexandria") 2015-11-26T13:20:40Z DeadTrickster__: H4ns, saw your? -hh fork 2015-11-26T13:20:40Z otwieracz: While quickloading :X, ASDF crashes because there is no alexandria system available. 2015-11-26T13:20:54Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: mine, yes. 2015-11-26T13:20:54Z otwieracz: (and Quicklisp did not loaded it yet) 2015-11-26T13:21:03Z otwieracz: H4ns: There are steps to reproduce in this paste. 2015-11-26T13:21:21Z DeadTrickster__: I just push "flexible attachments" https://github.com/deadtrickster/cl-smtp/tree/flexible-attachments branch - now one can subclass attachments and I want feedback 2015-11-26T13:21:43Z DeadTrickster__: I also implemented stream-attachment and base64-attachment 2015-11-26T13:22:09Z DeadTrickster__: I plan to use latter with files-stored-in-db 2015-11-26T13:22:26Z H4ns: otwieracz: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+filebug 2015-11-26T13:22:43Z otwieracz: H4ns: I am not sure if this is not quicklisp bug. 2015-11-26T13:22:58Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:23:13Z otwieracz: Quicklisp should load defsystem dependecies dependencies before letting ASDF load dependant systems. 2015-11-26T13:23:58Z DeadTrickster__: H4ns, also, should I look at your branch closely if cl-smtp just works? 2015-11-26T13:24:20Z youngbaks quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:25:18Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: no. i've made several incompatible changes that did not quite follow the follow the philosophy of cl-smtp, which is why the fork exists. i've wanted to be able to format mail bodies myself, whereas cl-smtp tries to do that for the user. 2015-11-26T13:25:41Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: your changes seem like a good addition to the main line, not to my fork. 2015-11-26T13:26:10Z DeadTrickster__: thanks, want you mean by 'format mail bodies'? 2015-11-26T13:26:52Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: format mime message in application or with other libraries, leave only the sending to cl-smtp 2015-11-26T13:27:27Z DeadTrickster__: like separating serialization and transport protocol, right? 2015-11-26T13:27:45Z DeadTrickster__: how this can be useful? could you give an example? 2015-11-26T13:27:46Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:28:07Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: right. at the time, i had very specific requirements how i wanted the mime message to look like, i.e. with inline images, alternate bodies etc. 2015-11-26T13:28:34Z JuanDaugherty used BEE 2015-11-26T13:29:04Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: this was not something that could easily be generalized. 2015-11-26T13:29:04Z DeadTrickster__: sounds like mime streams ) 2015-11-26T13:29:23Z phoe_krk: What's the easiest way of removing the last character off a string? 2015-11-26T13:29:38Z DeadTrickster__: H4ns, thanks, I'm simple guy, cl-smtp is enough I hope ) 2015-11-26T13:29:58Z H4ns: DeadTrickster__: probably so 2015-11-26T13:30:01Z JuanDaugherty: phoe_krk, don't remove it just stop thinking about it 2015-11-26T13:30:07Z phoe_krk: JuanDaugherty: ldsjghsklghdflg 2015-11-26T13:30:36Z phoe_krk: What's the easiest way of returning a string without its last character? 2015-11-26T13:30:38Z DeadTrickster__: H4ns, I just hope it won't interfere with content like some of cl-sendmail variants 2015-11-26T13:30:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:34:43Z phoe_krk: answer: (subseq string 0 (- (length string) 2)) 2015-11-26T13:35:00Z Shinmera: Beware of empty strings. 2015-11-26T13:35:28Z phoe_krk: Yes, I take that into account before. 2015-11-26T13:35:50Z DeadTrickster__ is now known as DeadTrickster 2015-11-26T13:35:54Z oceanpollen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T13:35:56Z DeadTrickster quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T13:36:04Z phoe_krk: actually 2015-11-26T13:36:12Z phoe_krk: (subseq string 0 (- (length string) 1)) 2015-11-26T13:36:16Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:36:38Z Shinmera: There's 1- for that. 2015-11-26T13:36:50Z phoe_krk: Oh, correct. 2015-11-26T13:37:26Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:44:20Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:45:11Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:45:48Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-26T13:48:42Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T13:50:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:55:16Z algae joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:57:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:58:01Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:58:51Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:58:57Z maveneagle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T13:59:05Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-26T13:59:35Z sz0` is now known as sz0 2015-11-26T13:59:54Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:01:02Z br0kenman joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:02:31Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T14:02:47Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T14:03:26Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T14:04:42Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:06:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:11:01Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:11:38Z clog_ quit (Quit: ^C) 2015-11-26T14:11:53Z clog joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:18:14Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice that subseq copies. You might want nsubseq. 2015-11-26T14:18:24Z br0kenman quit (Quit: q) 2015-11-26T14:18:35Z phoe_krk: Does nsubseq destroy the string it works on? 2015-11-26T14:18:37Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq 2015-11-26T14:18:41Z pjb: Nope. 2015-11-26T14:18:54Z Shinmera: On the other hand indexing with a displaced array can be very slow. More so than the overhead of copying the string in many cases. 2015-11-26T14:18:55Z pjb: But it is Non-consing 2015-11-26T14:19:06Z pjb: (well minimally consing). 2015-11-26T14:19:49Z pjb: Shinmera: not slower than indexing an array in C (which is always done thru the indirection of a pointer). 2015-11-26T14:19:56Z phoe_krk: well, the strings I work on here aren't going to be longer than a few characters. 2015-11-26T14:20:11Z Shinmera: pjb: Type inference suffers greatly from displaced arrays, which can make things very slow. 2015-11-26T14:20:12Z pjb: Good. 2015-11-26T14:20:22Z pjb: Shinmera: only with bad implementations like sbcl. 2015-11-26T14:20:23Z phoe_krk: I can pay the price for using subseq. 2015-11-26T14:21:30Z Shinmera: pjb: You might want to talk to someone about your consistent hatred for sbcl. 2015-11-26T14:21:36Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:21:38Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, for small strings. Also, displaced arrays keep a reference on the original array so if you start from big arrays and only use small part, that would prevent garbage collection of the unused parts. 2015-11-26T14:21:41Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T14:21:59Z pjb: Shinmera: when people will talk to someone about their consistent hatred for clisp. 2015-11-26T14:22:18Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:22:39Z Shinmera: Taking "revenge" on implementations is hardly a sane train of thought. 2015-11-26T14:22:52Z pjb: Shinmera: the problem is of course not with sbcl, but with programmers who use sbcl and who retain the same reflex as C programmers: only thinking about speed. 2015-11-26T14:23:50Z jlarocco_work quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T14:25:47Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:29:30Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T14:30:22Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:30:50Z quater-nyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-26T14:31:11Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:33:25Z pyon is now known as quater-nyan 2015-11-26T14:41:32Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T14:42:27Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T14:46:59Z phoe_krk: I have this macro, http://paste.lisp.org/display/160883, and later I have (defun a () (alist-gen :q :w)) (defun b () (alist-gen (:z (a))). When compiling that, it throws The function LISPFURC::A is undefined. 2015-11-26T14:47:15Z phoe_krk: Well, that's problematic, I define it just above. 2015-11-26T14:47:38Z phoe_krk: Or maybe the problem is there within that eval call. 2015-11-26T14:47:38Z DeadTrickster: displaced arrays are really good idea, however I'm always worried about performance and gc and basically never use them 2015-11-26T14:48:02Z DeadTrickster: and yes I'm primarily sbcl guy 2015-11-26T14:49:09Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, how type inference suffers? 2015-11-26T14:49:22Z DeadTrickster: element-type is known, bounds are known too 2015-11-26T14:49:28Z DeadTrickster: what i'm missing? 2015-11-26T14:49:50Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T14:50:00Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:50:11Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: The type system doesn't support distinguishing them, so you have to test all the time. 2015-11-26T14:50:33Z DeadTrickster: distinguishing between displaced arrays? 2015-11-26T14:51:05Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-26T14:51:16Z Shinmera: Well for one there's no displaced-array type. 2015-11-26T14:52:10Z DeadTrickster: is it really needed? it can inherit many things from base array i.e. vector/basic-vector 2015-11-26T14:52:58Z DeadTrickster: or speaking of sbcl displaced array for unsigned-byte 8 simple-array will be just a matter of adjusting pointers 2015-11-26T14:53:01Z Shinmera: I'm not the best to ask about this because I don't know the internals and don't remember the discussion in full. I'm sure someone on #sbcl like stassats could explain better though. 2015-11-26T14:53:04Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-26T14:53:22Z DeadTrickster: yeah stassats ) 2015-11-26T14:53:30Z Posterdati: how can I print a binary number with format with a variable number of digit depending on a variable? 2015-11-26T14:53:30Z DeadTrickster: he is always there 2015-11-26T14:54:25Z Cymew: pjb: You use clisp? 2015-11-26T14:54:29Z phoe_krk: Can I anyhow modify the order of macroexpansion and compilation? 2015-11-26T14:54:55Z phoe_krk: Other than on a per-file basis? 2015-11-26T14:56:29Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-26T14:57:55Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:00:15Z Cymew: pjb: The reason I'm curious is how its CLOS implementation is. I've gotten the impression there was something wrong with it, but I don't know any more than that. 2015-11-26T15:00:47Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:02:24Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:02:34Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:03:47Z phoe_krk: Uh. How do I tell Lisp to compile one expression before macroexpanding another? 2015-11-26T15:03:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T15:03:57Z White_Flame: Posterdati: (format nil (format "...insert numeric literal..." digit-length) number) comes to mind 2015-11-26T15:04:09Z White_Flame: ...format nil on the inner, too 2015-11-26T15:04:54Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: put it in a file that's loaded earlier via asdf? 2015-11-26T15:05:27Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: that's a solution, but I'd suddenly need to pop in four different files just to make my simple thing work =_= 2015-11-26T15:06:12Z White_Flame: have you tried eval-when? 2015-11-26T15:06:42Z phoe_krk: trying now 2015-11-26T15:06:48Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:06:51Z White_Flame: and the dirtiest hack is #.(make-it-happen-at-read-time) 2015-11-26T15:07:17Z phoe_krk: Jesus, that's dirty 2015-11-26T15:08:43Z Posterdati: White_Flame: tx 2015-11-26T15:09:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:10:34Z rszeno: Posterati, (format t "~v,'0b" digit-length number) 2015-11-26T15:10:53Z rszeno: Posterdati, ^^ 2015-11-26T15:11:01Z phoe_krk: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) worked. Thanks! 2015-11-26T15:11:10Z phoe_krk: Just what I was looking for, too. 2015-11-26T15:11:28Z Posterdati: rszeno: ah ~v ! Thanks 2015-11-26T15:12:07Z Cymew: Feel free to call me stupid, but what's wrong here: (defmacro get-list-item (lst key `,(aref lst key)) and (get-list-item (make-array 10) 1) claims its input is not an array? 2015-11-26T15:12:32Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:12:33Z Cymew: I'm kind of fried so this is probably obvious... 2015-11-26T15:12:36Z White_Flame: (lst key) ? 2015-11-26T15:13:16Z White_Flame: `(aref ,lst ,key) 2015-11-26T15:13:18Z Cymew: oops, that's a paste error. I should have used pastebin... 2015-11-26T15:13:29Z Cymew: Hmm. Can you have multiple commas? 2015-11-26T15:13:42Z White_Flame: sure, it nests 2015-11-26T15:14:49Z White_Flame: what's happening here is that at compile time, the macro body is _evaluating_ the equivalent of (aref '(make-array 10) 1), and '(make-array 10) is not an array 2015-11-26T15:14:57Z White_Flame: (in the bugged case) 2015-11-26T15:15:06Z Cymew: Hmm. That made the error go away, but still did not give me what I expected. I think I should probably go home and sleep. 2015-11-26T15:15:11Z Cymew: Thanks White_Flame 2015-11-26T15:15:17Z White_Flame: in my case, the macro body is constructing & returning the _list_ (aref (make-array 10) 1) 2015-11-26T15:15:58Z Cymew: I've been on the verge of using EVAL a couple of times now, so I'm bad off 2015-11-26T15:16:20Z White_Flame: what expectation was violated? 2015-11-26T15:17:25Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:17:30Z Cymew: I tried to create multiple SDL Surfaces and have an array as a lookup list for them, but I didn't get my correct Surface out. 2015-11-26T15:17:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:18:10Z Cymew: Ned to re-think this 2015-11-26T15:18:40Z White_Flame: ok, so that goes beyond the macroexpansion 2015-11-26T15:19:09Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:23:33Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-26T15:23:40Z cadadar1 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:23:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:23:42Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T15:23:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:26:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:28:30Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:29:45Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:32:31Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:32:31Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T15:32:31Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:33:23Z phoe_krk: Within iterate, how do I iterate on two variables by once? 2015-11-26T15:33:28Z phoe_krk: Like, I want to iterate over a plist. 2015-11-26T15:33:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T15:37:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:40:23Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:42:22Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:43:23Z zirman joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:43:23Z zirman quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T15:43:23Z zirman joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:49:18Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:51:01Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:53:46Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-26T15:58:40Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:01:48Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:03:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T16:07:17Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-26T16:07:39Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:09:34Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:13:08Z hellekin joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:13:46Z hellekin: hello, is anyone involved with gcl? I need a gcl maintainer to fix a link on their website. 2015-11-26T16:22:16Z Cymew: phoe_krk: Something like this? (LOOP :for p from 1 to 10 :for q from 1 to 10 :do (FORMAT t "~A ~A - " p q)) 2015-11-26T16:22:27Z phoe_krk: Cymew: using iterate 2015-11-26T16:22:36Z phoe_krk: and over a plist 2015-11-26T16:22:39Z Cymew: Not ITERATE, obviously, but LOOP can do it so... 2015-11-26T16:22:58Z phoe_krk: if loop can do it, so must iterate 2015-11-26T16:23:10Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T16:23:24Z Cymew: Possible. I don't use ITERATE myself, and I think you'll find more LOOP knowledge around. 2015-11-26T16:23:47Z Cymew: But, then I at least got what you meant, and I'm not as fried as I thought. Always something. 2015-11-26T16:24:04Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T16:24:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:24:28Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T16:24:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:25:13Z Cymew: Iterate doc strings really sucks. 2015-11-26T16:26:08Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-26T16:26:31Z youngbaks quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T16:28:22Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-11-26T16:29:35Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T16:30:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T16:30:37Z ZabaQ_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:31:15Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-26T16:32:06Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:32:56Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:33:06Z cataska_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:34:33Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T16:34:45Z stepnem_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T16:35:31Z phoe_krk: holy cow, imperative programming becomes so fun with the use of closures, too 2015-11-26T16:35:35Z cataska 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2015-11-26T18:41:40Z Bicyclidine: yeah, sure. just save *random-state* at some point. if you start generating randoms with the same random state you should get the same sequence. 2015-11-26T18:41:48Z shka: perhaps dynamic variable? 2015-11-26T18:41:51Z shka: riiight 2015-11-26T18:41:55Z Shinmera: But you cannot seed it by the user, as the internals are implementation dependant. 2015-11-26T18:42:10Z axion: right 2015-11-26T18:42:26Z Shinmera: I've started writing a library of portable RNGs for that reason, but never got it done. Not enough time in the day! 2015-11-26T18:42:44Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T18:43:04Z Bicyclidine: you can give it some arbitrary seed with (make-random-state t). and some implementations have extensions, so you can do e.g. sb-ext:seed-random-state. 2015-11-26T18:43:14Z Bicyclidine: i think there's also a portable mersenne twister somewhere. 2015-11-26T18:43:18Z axion: to be clear, the same implementation will be used by all users 2015-11-26T18:43:57Z Bicyclidine: minion: MT19937? 2015-11-26T18:43:57Z phoe_krk: Is there a way for the printer to acknowledge the available line width? 2015-11-26T18:43:57Z minion: MT19937: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/MT19937 2015-11-26T18:44:10Z phoe_krk: Not the reader, the REPL 2015-11-26T18:44:24Z Bicyclidine: clhs *print-right-margin* 2015-11-26T18:44:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_rig.htm 2015-11-26T18:44:25Z Bicyclidine: that? 2015-11-26T18:44:28Z phoe_krk: I'm using slime and I'd like the output to take the whole width of thanks 2015-11-26T18:45:44Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-26T18:46:01Z Bicyclidine: huh. long array gets cut off, you're right. i did not realize. 2015-11-26T18:46:06Z sweater is now known as Guest61627 2015-11-26T18:46:25Z phoe_krk: precisely. 2015-11-26T18:46:30Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: long lists, too. 2015-11-26T18:46:46Z phoe_krk: But I'm using a listy data structure, so I see that sort of thing. 2015-11-26T18:47:19Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T18:47:47Z Bicyclidine: i think i do not know why that is happening... 2015-11-26T18:47:50Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T18:48:06Z Bicyclidine: oh, it's part of the pretty printer. 2015-11-26T18:48:25Z xrash_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T18:48:54Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T18:50:13Z opc0de quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-26T18:50:31Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 265 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#lisp 2015-11-26T20:14:08Z kbtr joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:17:37Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:18:02Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-26T20:18:22Z tomoff: Hi. I'm getting errors like 400 and 403 when requesting pages with Drakma from buildapp. It's a one line app doing what curl does. I don't have the problem when running from Slime. Using SBCL. Any help will be appreciated. 2015-11-26T20:18:38Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:18:40Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T20:19:28Z phoe_krk: jesus, defmacro running a defmacro 2015-11-26T20:19:38Z phoe_krk: and it's almost working 2015-11-26T20:20:01Z tomoff quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T20:20:18Z tomoff joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:21:15Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:23:04Z nauar quit 2015-11-26T20:25:47Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:25:59Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:26:59Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:27:01Z Subfusc quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-26T20:27:09Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-11-26T20:27:36Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:27:47Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:28:22Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:28:24Z Subfusc quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-26T20:28:35Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:29:19Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:29:23Z tomaw- is now known as tomaw 2015-11-26T20:29:41Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:32:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:32:22Z 5EXAALNLQ is now known as haasn 2015-11-26T20:34:14Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:34:28Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:34:33Z jozip_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:34:59Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:35:07Z jozip_ is now known as jozip 2015-11-26T20:35:32Z sz0` is now known as sz0 2015-11-26T20:36:10Z LucyParsons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:36:35Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:38:05Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:39:29Z luis: tomoff: can you reproduce the issue with your own webserver? 2015-11-26T20:40:42Z guaqua`: what do people normally use for parsing command line arguments? i have used clon myself for some time and been wondering, how can i just make it fail at getopt-function when the option isn't passed in? 2015-11-26T20:40:49Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-11-26T20:40:53Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:41:24Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:41:25Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:42:52Z minion joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:42:59Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:43:53Z sid_cypher: i'd just use cl-ppcre first and ask later :) 2015-11-26T20:44:24Z hyoyoung_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:45:18Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:45:23Z phoe_krk: I wrote a defsomething macro. How do I make emacs treat (highlight, indent) it in the same way as defvar/defparameter? 2015-11-26T20:45:48Z ec\_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:46:13Z Shinmera: By naming it define-something 2015-11-26T20:46:13Z grouzen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:46:22Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:46:50Z emma joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:47:10Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:47:13Z seg_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:47:18Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:47:54Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:48:02Z themattchan joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:48:07Z zeraceth joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:48:58Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: no, that doesn't work. let me show you what I mean. 2015-11-26T20:49:02Z shookees_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:49:33Z Shinmera: (defmacro define-foo ()) (define-foo) => red text. 2015-11-26T20:49:36Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:49:43Z Shinmera: Hell even without the definition define-foo will be red. 2015-11-26T20:49:59Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: I mean indentation. 2015-11-26T20:50:16Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160912 2015-11-26T20:50:27Z phoe_krk: (define-alist furres-list ...) 2015-11-26T20:50:36Z phoe_krk: The parens are not on the same level. 2015-11-26T20:50:44Z kolko_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:50:53Z phoe_krk: The ones after first have two spaces too few. 2015-11-26T20:51:02Z Shinmera: You need to use something like trivial-indent and give slime extra hints. 2015-11-26T20:51:07Z ivan\_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:51:18Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:51:56Z les` joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:51:58Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:52:01Z eazar001_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-26T20:52:14Z Shinmera: Or you aren't even using &body for your body clauses. 2015-11-26T20:52:23Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:52:41Z sid_cypher: Similar question: any way to make a macro highlight the optional documentation string like defun does? 2015-11-26T20:52:46Z Bicyclidine: if it's like defparameter it doesn't have one 2015-11-26T20:53:00Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: His paste shows a body 2015-11-26T20:53:03Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:53:19Z eak_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:53:27Z Bicyclidine: oh, oops. yeah, use &body instead of &rest. 2015-11-26T20:54:23Z fiddlerw2aroof joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:54:34Z atgreen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:55:14Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:55:25Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:55:44Z add^__ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:56:04Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: You can modify slime-indentation https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly/blob/master/contrib/sly-cl-indent.el#L1714 2015-11-26T20:56:05Z trystero joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:56:06Z phoe_krk: &body.. 2015-11-26T20:56:11Z someone_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:56:13Z phoe_krk: well, yes, I use &rest 2015-11-26T20:56:13Z someone_ is now known as Guest31114 2015-11-26T20:56:34Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:56:51Z Shinmera: Then don't. Use &body if you have body forms. 2015-11-26T20:56:59Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:06Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:06Z phoe_krk: got iy. 2015-11-26T20:57:14Z les quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:15Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:16Z ec\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:17Z tomoff quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:17Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:18Z hyoyoung quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:19Z SlashLife_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:20Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:20Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:20Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:20Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:20Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:22Z Walex2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:24Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:24Z My_Hearing quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:25Z emma_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:25Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:26Z fiddlerw1aroof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:28Z eak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:29Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:30Z shum quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:30Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:32Z tstc` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:32Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:32Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:32Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:32Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:33Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:33Z zerac quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:35Z add^_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:37Z abaugher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T20:57:39Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:40Z sid_cypher: PuercoPop: thank you, great link. 2015-11-26T20:57:40Z seg_ is now known as seg 2015-11-26T20:57:43Z phoe_krk: um, defparameter has a doc string 2015-11-26T20:57:43Z ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 2015-11-26T20:57:44Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:44Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:44Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:57:45Z phoe_krk: (defparameter var val &optional doc) 2015-11-26T20:57:47Z Guest31114 is now known as someone 2015-11-26T20:57:49Z themattchan is now known as mach 2015-11-26T20:57:49Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-26T20:57:55Z My_Hearing joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:58:15Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:58:17Z someone is now known as Guest72394 2015-11-26T20:58:29Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:59:22Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-26T20:59:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:00:48Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:01:23Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:02:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:03:32Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:03:47Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:03:48Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:03:51Z splittist_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:04:59Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:05:21Z phadthai quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-26T21:05:31Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:06:15Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:06:52Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:07:36Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-11-26T21:08:16Z tomoff joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:08:36Z tomoff: luis: yes 2015-11-26T21:10:48Z PuercoPop: sid_cypher: someone should move that alisst into a defcustom 2015-11-26T21:13:16Z algae_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-26T21:14:09Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:14:09Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:16:12Z sid_cypher: just found slime-2.14/contrib/slime-fontifying-fu.el with a nice slime-additional-font-lock-keywords variable. 2015-11-26T21:16:21Z sid_cypher: PuercoPop: which alist? 2015-11-26T21:17:11Z PuercoPop: l in the common-lisp-init-standard-indentation 2015-11-26T21:18:46Z sid_cypher: PuercoPop: ah, yes, very true. Or at least make it a setf'able var 2015-11-26T21:20:30Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T21:21:56Z luis: tomoff: can you compare the good and bad requests? What changes? 2015-11-26T21:22:10Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:22:18Z ZabaQ_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:23:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:27:11Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:28:41Z Kruppe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-26T21:28:55Z Guest61627 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:29:41Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T21:30:47Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:31:47Z musegarden3 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:34:10Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:35:10Z guaqua` is now known as guaqua 2015-11-26T21:37:14Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:39:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:39:37Z phax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-26T21:44:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-26T21:48:02Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:49:08Z Kruppe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T21:49:08Z jcp joined #lisp 2015-11-26T21:49:32Z jcp is now known as Guest10512 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Can someone please fix the indentation of slot initialisation arguments for slot names that start with default- ? 2015-11-26T23:39:41Z pillton: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160919 2015-11-26T23:41:58Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-26T23:46:04Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:46:44Z luis: pillton: something in my setup fixes that. Maybe it's the slime-indentation contrib. 2015-11-26T23:47:06Z luis: pillton: can you try that? 2015-11-26T23:47:47Z les joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:49:40Z eagleflo1 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:49:46Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-26T23:50:40Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T23:50:59Z pillton: luis: Champion. Thank you. 2015-11-26T23:51:34Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-26T23:51:50Z pillton: It fixes the :default-initargs issue too! 2015-11-26T23:52:04Z les quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-26T23:52:15Z les joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:52:16Z luis: It's a nice contrib. It indents LOOP very nicely too. It should probably be enabled by default. 2015-11-26T23:52:35Z pillton: luis: Should it be part slime-fancy? 2015-11-26T23:52:44Z pillton: Bah... part of slime-fancy? 2015-11-26T23:52:45Z luis: Yeah, I think it should! 2015-11-26T23:53:46Z luis: Part of slime-indentation is a fork of the cl-indent library, IIRC. That should probably be merged back into Emacs, too. 2015-11-26T23:54:13Z badkins quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:13Z lancetw quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:14Z cataska quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:14Z oskarth quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:14Z d4gg4d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:16Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:16Z BitPuffin|osx quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:17Z musegarden3 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:18Z splittist_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:18Z nightfly quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:18Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:19Z les` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:21Z seg quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:22Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:23Z marienz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:25Z flip214 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:25Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-26T23:54:26Z pillton: Right. 2015-11-26T23:54:57Z pillton: BTW. Thanks for putting in the effort. 2015-11-26T23:55:22Z pillton thanks all the others too. 2015-11-26T23:55:44Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:55:44Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2015-11-26T23:55:44Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:58:09Z seg joined #lisp 2015-11-26T23:59:45Z luis ranks fairly low in the list of SLIME contributors :) 2015-11-27T00:00:30Z zacts_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:01:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:01:30Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T00:04:38Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z musegarden3 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z splittist_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:39Z marienz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T00:04:43Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 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pillton: G'day loke. 2015-11-27T02:19:34Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T02:19:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T02:19:44Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:20:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:21:37Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:23:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T02:23:59Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:27:00Z emacsomancer: is there a rosetta-stone type reference for comparing cl & scheme? 2015-11-27T02:29:12Z phoe_krk: Is there a Lisp/SBCL way of listing all sockets opened by it? 2015-11-27T02:29:43Z Colleen____ quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-11-27T02:30:03Z Colleen____ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:30:29Z isoraqathedh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T02:31:07Z Zhivago: emacs: Not really, but you can go through r5rs in a few minutes. 2015-11-27T02:31:35Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-11-27T02:32:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the 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timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T03:04:56Z idem-pyon-tent quit (Quit: Angels fall, all for you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-11-27T03:07:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:08:42Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:11:34Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T03:14:11Z phoe_krk: What is the function to show the version of an asdf system? 2015-11-27T03:25:03Z emacsomancer: Zhivago: does that essentially cover most of the differences? 2015-11-27T03:25:33Z emacsomancer: I did find this ( http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp ) but the "scheme" slot is occupied by racket 2015-11-27T03:27:51Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: asdf:component-version, i think. 2015-11-27T03:28:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:30:08Z rszeno: emacsomancer, if i'm not wrong paul graham book "on lisp" have an example of implementing amb in lisp and scheme, maybe this will help 2015-11-27T03:30:44Z emacsomancer: rszeno: thanks I'll have a look at that 2015-11-27T03:31:44Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: okay, found and reported the bug over at github/usocket/usocket. 2015-11-27T03:32:03Z rszeno: emacsomancer, http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html 2015-11-27T03:32:05Z phoe_krk: Once I create an usocket:socket-listen, how do I read from it? 2015-11-27T03:34:23Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T03:35:24Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-11-27T03:35:40Z phoe_krk: ooh, socket-accept. 2015-11-27T03:35:42Z phoe_krk: okay. 2015-11-27T03:35:42Z rszeno: phoe_krk if you have info installed, see info sbcl networking 2015-11-27T03:35:49Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:36:05Z phoe_krk: what is info? 2015-11-27T03:36:12Z phoe_krk: and is it win32? 2015-11-27T03:36:39Z Bicyclidine: guess that's a no 2015-11-27T03:36:52Z Bicyclidine: http://sbcl.org/manual/#Networking 2015-11-27T03:39:21Z pillton: There is also the system basic-binary-ipc. It has documentation. 2015-11-27T03:39:44Z pillton: Or iolib. I'm not sure on the state of its documentation. 2015-11-27T03:39:52Z namespace joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:42:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:44:30Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T03:45:23Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T03:47:20Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-27T03:50:14Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T03:50:20Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T03:58:44Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:01:38Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:04:19Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:06:22Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-11-27T04:07:07Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T04:07:46Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:09:05Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:09:10Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-11-27T04:10:32Z pjb: minion: memo for Shinmera: you can. But random-states are not printable readably. (defvar *rs* (make-random-state)) (let ((prediction (loop repeat 10 collect (random 10)))) (setf *random-state* *rs*) (loop repeat 10 for p in prediction do (format t "I predict ~A~%" p) (let ((r (random 10))) (format t "Random value: ~A ~:[Lost~;I Won!~]~%" r (= p r))))) 2015-11-27T04:10:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-27T04:10:52Z BLACK_POWER joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:10:55Z BLACK_POWER: IF YOU BLACK ND YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT RILL PROBLEMS TYPE /join #NIGGERTALK 2015-11-27T04:11:00Z Bicyclidine: you really should read the full conversation before you tell people things they already know 2015-11-27T04:11:23Z BLACK_POWER: bruh what do you expect they white 2015-11-27T04:11:28Z BLACK_POWER: they ain't got time for that 2015-11-27T04:11:55Z pjb: minion: memo for Shinmera: Oops, sorry, random-states are printable readably within the implementation. So you can even better predict! 2015-11-27T04:11:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-27T04:12:28Z pjb: Bicyclidine: yes, but it'd be less funny. 2015-11-27T04:12:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:13:00Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:13:08Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:13:15Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T04:13:52Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:17:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:18:30Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:19:52Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:19:54Z youngbaks joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:25:10Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:28:44Z BLACK_POWER: IF YOU BLACK ND YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT RILL PROBLEMS TYPE /join #NIGGERSONLY 2015-11-27T04:29:37Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:31:33Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:31:40Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:32:28Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T04:32:44Z lisper29 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T04:34:02Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:36:51Z BLACK_POWER: IF YOU BLACK ND YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT RILL PROBLEMS TYPE /join #NIGGERSONLY 2015-11-27T04:37:42Z sid_cypher: by the power of banhammer! o_0 2015-11-27T04:41:43Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-27T04:41:52Z sid_cypher: "within the implementation" is the sad part. you could take one implementation's code and maybe base a portable library on it, though. 2015-11-27T04:44:42Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:44:43Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T04:45:31Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:47:43Z pjb: sid_cypher: there are already several libraries providing pseudo random generators. 2015-11-27T04:47:46Z Bicyclidine: as has been done, which was mentioned earlier. 2015-11-27T04:49:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 2015-11-27T04:49:36Z Zhivago has set mode +q BLACK_POWER!*@* 2015-11-27T04:49:40Z Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 2015-11-27T04:49:58Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:52:26Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:53:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:54:27Z BLACK_POWER left #lisp 2015-11-27T04:54:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T04:56:34Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T04:56:54Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-27T04:57:15Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T04:57:16Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-27T04:57:55Z sid_cypher: pjb: Bicyclidine: i see, didn't search for them myself. Cliki offers some, but no obvious go-to library for seedable prng's. 2015-11-27T04:58:19Z zirman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T04:59:08Z Bicyclidine: minion: MT19937 2015-11-27T04:59:08Z minion: MT19937: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/MT19937 2015-11-27T04:59:37Z Bicyclidine: straight outta compton mellon university common lisp 2015-11-27T05:01:23Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:01:33Z sid_cypher: would it be a good idea to this PRNG to http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries ? The list has no PRNG's on it. 2015-11-27T05:01:41Z sid_cypher: *to add 2015-11-27T05:01:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:03:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:03:25Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:08:32Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:09:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:10:53Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-11-27T05:11:17Z Bicyclid1ne joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:11:35Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:13:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:13:22Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:20:00Z pjb: sid_cypher: this is a wiki. If you would recommend it, then recommend it! 2015-11-27T05:22:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:22:30Z sid_cypher: okay :) 2015-11-27T05:23:54Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:26:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:28:58Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:34:00Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-27T05:35:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:36:59Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:39:19Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T05:42:03Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:44:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:44:16Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:45:36Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:45:59Z sweater is now known as Guest1061 2015-11-27T05:51:31Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T05:55:59Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:56:16Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-27T05:57:57Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T05:58:26Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T06:04:43Z sid_cypher: mt19937 does support short seeds. Example: (mt19937::make-random-object :state (mt19937:init-random-state #xDeadBeef)) where #xDeadBeef==3735928559 is a seed. 2015-11-27T06:09:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:11:02Z sid_cypher: axion: did you need short seed-based portable procedural generation? using mt19937 for that seems to be an option. 2015-11-27T06:11:15Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:13:34Z sid_cypher: oh, absent Shinmera, too. 2015-11-27T06:13:34Z Prael quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T06:13:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T06:14:36Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-27T06:18:54Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T06:20:34Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:20:37Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:20:51Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:21:47Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:22:39Z alms_clozure_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T06:23:00Z eak_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T06:23:00Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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mbuf aap isoraqathedh xorox90 atgreen_ cpc26_ 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: sunwukong Niac quazimodo papachan marienz z0d l1x nightfly splittist_ musegarden3 d4gg4d oskarth cataska lancetw seg les Khisanth Subfusc faheem___ rvirding trig-ger bgs100 ck_ ASau Guest10512 quasisane phadthai tessier kolko SlashLife someone trystero add^__ zeraceth mach ec\_ tstc hyoyoung_ Walex jozip farhaven kbtr viaken2 sjl alexherbo2 finnrobi haasn mprelude drmeister GGMethos Zotan akkad axion blubjr jlarocco_ wyan voidlily mood tomaw jeaye knobo 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: adhoc yauz White_Flame Jesin heddwch SilentEcho reb````` dim shifty779 drdo NhanH jasom frankS2 djinni`_ darlinger ggherdov smull_ victor_lowther jtz aerique arnsholt pootler gendl rotty lieven jonh loke_` sellout arrsim dougk_ segmond trn zbigniew funnel vert2_ housel aeth briankrent dwchandler Tristam jself stokachu tippenein kjeldahl_ cibs JX7P schoppenhauer brucem gypsydave5 kalzz varjag vaporatorius pillton SAL9000 clop2 skeledrew_ nicdev 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: Bugboy1028 jlarocco yvm Lord_of_Life moei CEnnis91 |3b|` Patzy_ mthom```` taij33n ktx_ nopf foom2 guaqua pwned p_l scymtym__ PlasmaStar wolf_moz- ThePhoeron_ sbryant _death ahungry hratsimihah Lord_Nightmare gensym wemeetagain gko cyphase stux|RC-only wizzo Neet lokulin DANtheBEASTman Uptime PuercoPop pepol lpaste_ sigjuice eschulte cat_ phcrist brandonz asedeno swflint gz jdz Guest95815 fluter billstclair misv impulse chavezgu DeadTrickster_ sekrit 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: Posterdati HDurer clog s00pcan jayne_ o`connor opcode Firedancer_ lemoinem_ nowhereman sulky dmiles_afk eMBee hellekin Ober sword` balle otwieracz wailord nydel rvchangue Xof ft wglb jackdaniel zyoung_ yrdz` Oddity dilated_dinosaur hitecnologys sivoais mathrick H4ns baboon` vsync setheus_ ski Mandus pok dlowe trinitr0n Davidbrcz low-profile PinealGlandOptic cross diginet john-mcaleely kjak j0ni dan64 redline6561 Tordek johs phryk sid_cypher DylanJ TMA 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: cmpitg micro_ moredhel russell-- cell norfumpit joast ``Erik djh jsnell thomas jurov cmatei Cthulhux` roscoe_tw MoALTz josteink ramus Guest70507 myrkraverk lxpz dsp- Robdgreat duper zymurgy replcated kanru` anunnaki_ Faed profess tokenrov1 justinmcp_ ozzloy lvh_ killmaster salva fikusz ngrud edran gabot copec InvalidCo chu SHODAN sshirokov roo epitron ineiros AeroNotix dTal martinhath mtd RazWelles benaiah Octophore` cyberlard yeltzooo honkfestival 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: newcup mikaelj ecraven __main__ snits jackc-_ Riviera vhost- Zhivago nugnuts vlnx oGMo nyef_ ryan_vw_ cyraxjoe tkd larme araujo joneshf-laptop failproofshark cods abbe MikeSeth luis ivan4th` ferada antoszka sfa_ j_king arpunk1 ben_vulpes n2kra_ samebchase joshe angavrilov ircbrowse lispyone fe[nl]ix sssi`` sytse easye danlentz cpt_nemo Blkt XachX nisstyre torpig rtoym cartwright froggey_ cmbntr yang tokik joga phf Intensity theBlackDragon troydm mrSpec 2015-11-27T08:21:58Z names: zickzackv 2015-11-27T08:22:01Z 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Just ask. 2015-11-27T08:24:49Z wolf_moz- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T08:24:55Z pjb: loke: and honestly, we don't care if you need it. Only if the question is interesting enough to be answered. 2015-11-27T08:27:07Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-11-27T08:27:22Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T08:27:22Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T08:27:44Z anunnaki_ is now known as anunnaki 2015-11-27T08:27:48Z clop2 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T08:28:16Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-11-27T08:28:56Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: ccl-logbot DeadTrickster zer0pH Colleen_ ZabaQ bgs100 mvilleneuve scymtym_ l04m33 scymtym wolf_moz- tessier minion mishoo vlatkoB phadthai haasn harish_ loke gingerale namespace Mon_Ouie shookees_ zacharias zaquest synchromesh AntiSpamMeta FreeBirdLjj constantinexvi flambard Shinmera karswell eak wooden_ ivan\ eagleflo ramky abaugher kushal gniourf tmtwd_ JuanDaugherty fiddlerw2aroof sweater- yeticry emma Quadrescence alms_clozure pjb iddqd bb010g rigsby 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: Bicyclidine gigetoo baotiao isoraqathedh cpc26_ sunwukong quazimodo papachan drdo NhanH jasom frankS2 djinni`_ darlinger ggherdov smull_ victor_lowther jtz aerique arnsholt pootler gendl rotty lieven jonh loke_` sellout arrsim dougk_ segmond trn zbigniew funnel vert2_ housel aeth briankrent dwchandler Tristam jself stokachu tippenein kjeldahl_ cibs JX7P schoppenhauer brucem gypsydave5 kalzz varjag vaporatorius pillton SAL9000 skeledrew_ nicdev Bugboy1028 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: jlarocco yvm Lord_of_Life moei CEnnis91 |3b|` Patzy_ mthom```` taij33n ktx_ nopf foom2 guaqua pwned p_l PlasmaStar ThePhoeron_ sbryant _death ahungry hratsimihah Lord_Nightmare gensym wemeetagain gko cyphase stux|RC-only wizzo Neet DANtheBEASTman Uptime PuercoPop pepol lpaste_ sigjuice eschulte cat_ phcrist brandonz asedeno swflint gz fluter billstclair misv impulse chavezgu DeadTrickster_ sekrit Posterdati HDurer clog s00pcan Firedancer lemoinem_ 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: nowhereman sulky dmiles_afk eMBee hellekin Ober sword` balle otwieracz wailord nydel rvchangue Xof ft wglb jackdaniel zyoung_ yrdz` Oddity dilated_dinosaur hitecnologys sivoais mathrick H4ns baboon` vsync setheus_ ski Mandus pok dlowe trinitr0n Davidbrcz low-profile PinealGlandOptic cross diginet john-mcaleely kjak j0ni dan64 redline6561 Tordek johs phryk sid_cypher DylanJ TMA cmpitg micro_ moredhel russell-- cell norfumpit joast ``Erik djh jsnell thomas 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: jurov cmatei Cthulhux` roscoe_tw MoALTz josteink ramus Guest70507 myrkraverk lxpz dsp- Robdgreat duper zymurgy replcated kanru` anunnaki Faed profess tokenrov1 justinmcp_ ozzloy lvh_ killmaster salva fikusz ngrud edran gabot copec InvalidCo chu SHODAN sshirokov roo epitron ineiros AeroNotix dTal martinhath mtd RazWelles benaiah Octophore` cyberlard yeltzooo honkfestival newcup mikaelj ecraven __main__ snits jackc-_ Riviera vhost- Zhivago nugnuts vlnx oGMo 2015-11-27T08:56:02Z names: nyef_ ryan_vw_ cyraxjoe 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mprelude dim mvilleneuve_ edgar-rf_ 2015-11-27T12:12:49Z names: flip214 Guest46194 opcode Intensity phf jayne o`connor renard_ Niac hyoyoung smokeink segmond taij33n cyphase finnrobi guaqua` lpaste joga haasn CEnnis91 DeadTrickster scymtym_ scymtym wolf_moz- phadthai abaugher iddqd cpc26_ lancetw cataska oskarth d4gg4d musegarden3 splittist_ nightfly l1x marienz sytse_ aap ircbrows- abbe_ billstclair fe[nl]ix Blkt araujo cpt_nemo Riviera vhost- Zhivago nugnuts nyef_ tkd larme joneshf-laptop arpunk1 n2kra_ joshe 2015-11-27T12:12:49Z names: lispyone danlentz XachX darlinger jdz newcup victor_lowther jozip sssi``` sz0 antoszka bb010g phcrist ggherdov constantinexvi 2015-11-27T12:12:56Z ssake_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:13:01Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:13:42Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:14:22Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:14:23Z DeadTrickster: is it painful for you to read or what? should I only praise people here? or discussing QL flaws is forbidden or offtopic? 2015-11-27T12:15:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:15:15Z dim: complaints without ideas for solutions are better avoided IMNSHO yes 2015-11-27T12:15:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:15:34Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:15:35Z DeadTrickster: or better - for example on github (if you know what it is) people not only contributing code directly using pull request but also by reporting their concerns using issues 2015-11-27T12:16:04Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:16:04Z Shinmera-: Geh, the ccl logbot is having connection problems too. 2015-11-27T12:16:24Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:16:30Z Shinmera-: Anyone know what's up with that? I keep on timing out. 2015-11-27T12:16:35Z DeadTrickster: ddos 2015-11-27T12:16:40Z jozip quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T12:16:53Z Shinmera-: Bah. 2015-11-27T12:20:37Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:20:41Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:21:16Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-27T12:21:22Z DeadTrickster: to omprove sbcl startup times on sbcl+ql should I dump sbcl core with all needed systems loaded or just quicklisp-init is enough? 2015-11-27T12:22:01Z pjb: DeadTricksteryes. 2015-11-27T12:22:15Z DeadTrickster: thx 2015-11-27T12:23:01Z pjb: You could do a monthly (quick-update) (quick-install-all) (ext:save-lisp-and-die "mylisp") 2015-11-27T12:23:32Z pjb: and then no bother about ql for a month. 2015-11-27T12:23:41Z pjb: + apropos will work nicely. 2015-11-27T12:24:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:24:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T12:24:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:24:26Z DeadTrickster: yeah I'm doing almost exactly this already - I'm building slightly custom sbcl runtime (include static libs) 2015-11-27T12:24:36Z DeadTrickster: now I'll add ql 2015-11-27T12:24:45Z pjb: Last time I did that: 363905264 Jan 19 2011 all-ql-ccl.mem 364 MB image; nowadays I'd guess the size would have doubled. 2015-11-27T12:25:06Z DeadTrickster: pjb, you are clisp huy right? 2015-11-27T12:25:09Z DeadTrickster: guy 2015-11-27T12:25:27Z pjb: This was with ccl; with clisp it's a little less; and for sbcl it'd probably be bigger, I wouldn't be surprised to reach the GB image. 2015-11-27T12:26:00Z DeadTrickster: usually the size of shipped binary is about 300 mega bytes 2015-11-27T12:26:06Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:26:09Z samebchase joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:26:19Z huza joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:27:38Z DeadTrickster: freshly built core is 45 or 47 mb 2015-11-27T12:27:52Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:27:54Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:29:52Z sssi``` is now known as sssi 2015-11-27T12:30:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:30:33Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:30:53Z dim: with core compression you're down in the 20MB range for pgloader 2015-11-27T12:31:22Z dim: oh. 45MB actually. 2015-11-27T12:31:40Z trystero joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:32:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:33:03Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:33:48Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:34:05Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:34:23Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-27T12:34:32Z Shinmera-: A plain core with zlib compression gives ~15mb. 2015-11-27T12:34:47Z sssi` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:34:47Z sssi quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T12:35:37Z sssi` is now known as sssi 2015-11-27T12:35:40Z DeadTrickster: last time I updated quicklisp it removed read-csv. I have when it does shit like this. now I'll always read his dist update emails 2015-11-27T12:36:00Z DeadTrickster: s/have/hate 2015-11-27T12:36:19Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:36:19Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:36:37Z cods joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:36:42Z XachX: In general, a few things stop working with every change and update. 2015-11-27T12:37:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:16Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:24Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:33Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:37Z anti-fre_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:39Z Colleen___ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:51Z sfa joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:37:52Z XachX: With sbcl updates, quicklisp updates, library updates, etc. 2015-11-27T12:37:57Z DeadTrickster: it reminds me bt-threads condition-wait. Yes I primarily using sbcl but why not to try be compatible. Unless I realized bt-threads:condition-wait doesn't support timeouts 2015-11-27T12:38:00Z les quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:04Z XachX: The stablest option is not to upgrade. 2015-11-27T12:38:05Z sjl quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-27T12:38:06Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:06Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:10Z sjl_ is now known as sjl 2015-11-27T12:38:33Z jackc-_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:38:38Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:39Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:38:40Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:40Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:38:41Z pjb is now known as Guest72346 2015-11-27T12:38:46Z DeadTrickster: XachX, people should be able to lock per-project versions and authors should be able to update their stuff. this updates should trigger test builds of course 2015-11-27T12:38:56Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-11-27T12:39:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:39:13Z ssake_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:15Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:15Z Shinmera- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z oGMo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:16Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:18Z anti-freeze quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:18Z Guest72346 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:18Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:18Z jackc- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:18Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:23Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:39:34Z pjb: Someday quicklisp will be able to deal with releases. In the meantime, I believe you can freeze it. 2015-11-27T12:39:36Z XachX: DeadTrickster: Why? 2015-11-27T12:39:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:49Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:52Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:58Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:39:58Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:00Z ben_vulpes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:01Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:03Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:40:04Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:06Z XachX: pjb: What does that mean? 2015-11-27T12:40:06Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:07Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:07Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z Colleen__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:08Z john-mcaleely quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:40:17Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:40:24Z ssake_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:40:31Z pjb: Wasn't there a way to freeze it so that it wouldn't update projects? 2015-11-27T12:40:43Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:40:50Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:40:58Z DeadTrickster: take string-case for example. sbcl-1.3* compatibility was fixed weeks ago 2015-11-27T12:40:59Z XachX: pjb: If you don't call the update function, it does not update anything. Is that what you mean? 2015-11-27T12:41:05Z minion joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:41:16Z XachX: DeadTrickster: do you know why it was fixed? 2015-11-27T12:41:26Z pjb: What if we ql:quickload? Will it take months old versions if we never updated? 2015-11-27T12:41:43Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:41:45Z XachX: pjb: If you never update, you do not get updates. 2015-11-27T12:41:48Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:41:50Z DeadTrickster: XachX, yes I know 2015-11-27T12:41:52Z pjb: Sounds good then. 2015-11-27T12:41:54Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:42:02Z XachX: DeadTrickster: Why was it fixed? 2015-11-27T12:42:19Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:42:25Z DeadTrickster: because it is broken on sbcl-1.3* 2015-11-27T12:42:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:42:31Z DeadTrickster: was 2015-11-27T12:42:57Z XachX: DeadTrickster: No. It was fixed because I reported it as a result of quicklisp build testing. It was also only generally available because I did extra work to make it visible in Quicklisp. 2015-11-27T12:43:23Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:43:24Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:43:28Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:43:29Z XachX: Many things that break are fixed only because of quicklisp build reports. 2015-11-27T12:43:54Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:44:15Z XachX: It would be a better world if the process were more automatic than that. 2015-11-27T12:44:27Z luis joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:44:29Z XachX: Until then, what we have is what we have. 2015-11-27T12:44:33Z Guest72126 quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T12:44:33Z Guest72126 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:44:46Z DeadTrickster: XachX, as I suggested - always do test builds, so I'm not trying to underestimate anything 2015-11-27T12:44:55Z DeadTrickster: I remember pre-QL world 2015-11-27T12:45:09Z DeadTrickster: I just badly want it to be better 2015-11-27T12:45:34Z XachX: I also want it to be better. It takes time and effort. The desire to put in the time and effort can vary greatly depending on feedback. 2015-11-27T12:45:41Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:46:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:46:18Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:46:28Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:47:16Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:47:20Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:47:50Z Guest72126 left #lisp 2015-11-27T12:47:54Z DeadTrickster: btw comparing to Node disaster I prefer QL all-or nothing approach 2015-11-27T12:47:58Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:48:05Z DeadTrickster: better exclude something. of course 2015-11-27T12:48:26Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:48:26Z oGMo joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:48:56Z DeadTrickster: XachX, what your tests actually do? just (ql:quickload) or it actually runs unit/integration tests? 2015-11-27T12:49:21Z ferada joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:50:05Z DeadTrickster: I remember a couple years ago some library api changed. it loaded ok but broke many other stuff 2015-11-27T12:50:36Z sssi quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-27T12:50:55Z sssi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:51:08Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:51:09Z alms_clozure quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T12:51:09Z les joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:51:17Z faheem___ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:51:39Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:52:00Z XachX: DeadTrickster: My tests are build-only tests. cl-test-grid runs more tests. 2015-11-27T12:52:10Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:52:24Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:52:24Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:52:31Z Neet_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:52:43Z DeadTrickster: XachX, is there any particular reason for you not to run cl-test-grid tests after build tests? 2015-11-27T12:52:58Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:53:27Z XachX: DeadTrickster: I don't know how cl-test-grid works. The cl-test-grid tests are run after I publish and announce an alpha dist. 2015-11-27T12:54:06Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:54:23Z DeadTrickster: XachX, returning to string-case situation - don't you think it would be probably cool if author can push urgent? updates to dist? 2015-11-27T12:54:53Z rudolfochrist: What are some best practises regarding `require'? Should I requrie in each file where I intent to use the module or is ith better to gather all require expressions in it's own file and load thath before my other files? 2015-11-27T12:54:54Z XachX: DeadTrickster: Yes, if the updates could be tested against everything else. 2015-11-27T12:54:58Z DeadTrickster: maybe introduce fast-ring update 2015-11-27T12:55:05Z DeadTrickster: and slow ring - like microsoft did 2015-11-27T12:55:10Z XachX: rudolfochrist: REQUIRE is not used much in Common Lisp. 2015-11-27T12:55:30Z XachX: rudolfochrist: The normal thing to manage the loading of files in the right order is ASDF. 2015-11-27T12:55:38Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T12:55:41Z DeadTrickster: XachX, is it that hard and costly to run those tests? 2015-11-27T12:55:41Z j_king joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:56:06Z XachX: DeadTrickster: I don't know, but as far as I know, only one person has ever set up cl-test-grid, and that is its author. 2015-11-27T12:56:21Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:56:25Z XachX: DeadTrickster: I don't know what's involved to run cl-test-grid or something comparable. 2015-11-27T12:56:48Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:57:11Z Neet_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T12:57:13Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:57:25Z sssi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T12:57:53Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:59:22Z Neet_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:59:22Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T12:59:25Z mtl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:00:53Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.) 2015-11-27T13:00:54Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:00:55Z rudolfochrist: XachX: So, would you add (e.g) sb-bsd-sockets to the depends-on clause of your defsystem? 2015-11-27T13:01:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:01:16Z XachX: rudolfochrist: yes 2015-11-27T13:02:15Z darlinger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:02:39Z DeadTrickster: XachX, I meant your tests 2015-11-27T13:02:39Z DeadTrickster: building tests 2015-11-27T13:02:51Z rudolfochrist: XachX: Interessting. Thanks for clearing up some things. 2015-11-27T13:02:54Z XachX: DeadTrickster: the build tests? they take a few hours to run for everything. 2015-11-27T13:02:54Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:03:03Z XachX: DeadTrickster: I usually run them once per day. 2015-11-27T13:03:16Z XachX: rudolfochrist: no problem 2015-11-27T13:03:21Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:03:26Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-11-27T13:03:41Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:11Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:18Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:18Z darlinger joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:18Z mtl_: I'm having some issues loading cl-ncurses with quicklisp(with both sbcl and ccl) 2015-11-27T13:04:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:29Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:29Z XachX: mtl_: what happens when you try? 2015-11-27T13:04:35Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:43Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:04:51Z DeadTrickster: XachX, so your actually update stuff daily? why not to release those daily builds as say quicklisp-daily dist 2015-11-27T13:05:15Z mtl_: Error opening shared object "/lib64/libncurses.so": /lib64/libncurses.so: file too short. 2015-11-27T13:05:26Z mtl_: ncurses is installed 2015-11-27T13:05:27Z XachX: DeadTrickster: On a daily basis, a number of things are broken. 2015-11-27T13:05:28Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:05:41Z XachX: DeadTrickster: it takes feedback and bug reports to bring things to a suitable state for a release 2015-11-27T13:06:18Z iddqd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T13:06:38Z XachX: DeadTrickster: It would be feasible, I think, to have a completely untested dist that simply lists every .asd file as loadable, too. That could make it easier for others to run their own tests and fixes. 2015-11-27T13:06:48Z clop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:06:58Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:07:16Z wyan joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:07:33Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:07:36Z mtl_: i've run update-client and update-all-dists and all that 2015-11-27T13:07:56Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T13:09:07Z mtl_: $ ls /lib64/libncurses.so 2015-11-27T13:09:08Z mtl_: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 18 Sep 15 05:47 /lib64/libncurses.so 2015-11-27T13:09:12Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:09:16Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:09:29Z MikeSeth joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:10:13Z DeadTrickster: XachX, back again to string-case :-) until recent version included in QL it have to keep it in local-projects and I have to remember to delete it after ql update. I'm sure that is not only my problem. 2015-11-27T13:10:18Z DeadTrickster: XachX, also on read-csv 2015-11-27T13:10:22Z mtl_: I get a similar error if I try to load cl-charms as well 2015-11-27T13:11:13Z zirman joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:11:15Z zirman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:11:18Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:11:36Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:11:46Z mtl_: except cl-charms seems to be looking for a .so that doesn't exist(libncursesw.so.5) 2015-11-27T13:11:48Z DeadTrickster: XachX, I'm using it regularly so feel free to restore it from here: https://github.com/deadtrickster/read-csv 2015-11-27T13:12:12Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:12:12Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:12:18Z Neet_ is now known as Neet 2015-11-27T13:12:23Z d4gg4d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:24Z oskarth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:24Z cataska quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:24Z lancetw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:25Z faheem___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:25Z rvirding quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:12:54Z jordon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:12:54Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T13:13:26Z jordon: Is common lisp is thing like clojure 2015-11-27T13:13:52Z tessier_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:13:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:13:58Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:14:05Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:07Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:28Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:29Z jackdaniel: jordon: they differ significantly but they have noticable similarities 2015-11-27T13:14:29Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:14:53Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:15:26Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:15:41Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:15:59Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:17:27Z XachX: DeadTrickster: You can also opt not to update sbcl. Is there some critical difference in the latest sbcl that you must have? 2015-11-27T13:17:38Z zirman joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:17:38Z zirman quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T13:17:38Z zirman joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:17:38Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:18:06Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:18:13Z snits joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:19:06Z jackdaniel: shiny, modern, brand new :) 2015-11-27T13:19:17Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:19:24Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:21:14Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T13:21:23Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:21:55Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:22:59Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:23:13Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:23:29Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:24:12Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:24:12Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:24:20Z victor_lowther_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:24:23Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:24:48Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:24:50Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:25:16Z mtl_: XachX: out of curiosity, I tried loading cl-ncurses on my vps(debian 8) and that worked fine 2015-11-27T13:25:26Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:25:26Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:25:26Z phoe_krk_ is now known as phoe_krk 2015-11-27T13:25:27Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:25:38Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2015-11-27T13:25:40Z mtl_: so maybe the ncurses on my desktop(arch linux) is too new? 2015-11-27T13:25:51Z XachX: dont know, sorry :( 2015-11-27T13:26:00Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:26:26Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:27:26Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:27:34Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:27:47Z jordon: i use ncurses on manjaro and i've been getting a few problems 2015-11-27T13:28:02Z mtl_: libraries can be annoying on arch sometimes 2015-11-27T13:28:06Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:28:12Z oskarth joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:28:16Z mtl_: jordon: manjaro is just arch with extra packages installed, right? 2015-11-27T13:28:37Z jordon: manjaro is like ubuntu is to linux mint 2015-11-27T13:30:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:30:05Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T13:30:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:30:07Z BogeymanAgnostic joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:30:14Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:30:51Z nyef_ is now known as nyef 2015-11-27T13:32:00Z jordon: I've been using a lot of clojure lately 2015-11-27T13:32:16Z mtl_: jordon: any problems with cl-ncurses or cl-charms? 2015-11-27T13:33:46Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:33:48Z oceanpollen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T13:33:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:34:58Z jordon: I've been getting a lot of crashing ever since I updated my kernel 2015-11-27T13:36:31Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:39:10Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:42:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:43:23Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T13:43:34Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:44:09Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T13:44:10Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-11-27T13:45:54Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:46:14Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:46:57Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:49:00Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-27T13:49:53Z Posterdati: I'm trying to use com.gigamonkeys.test-framework, but deftest is quite different from the one on the book, could anyone help me please? Thanks 2015-11-27T13:49:57Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T13:50:32Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:51:05Z constantinexvi_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:52:19Z constantinexvi quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T13:52:20Z trig-ger quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T13:52:20Z MoALTz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T13:52:20Z phoe_krk quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T13:52:20Z Guest46194 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T13:52:50Z phoe_krk_ is now known as phoe_krk 2015-11-27T13:52:56Z mtl_: XachX: woo, I was able to load cl-charms, by cloning this https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms into ~/quicklisp/local-projects 2015-11-27T13:52:57Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:53:04Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:53:16Z mtl_: XachX: does quicklisp get cl-charms from somewhere else? 2015-11-27T13:53:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:53:21Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:53:33Z XachX: mtl_: I'll check... 2015-11-27T13:54:06Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:54:35Z XachX: mtl_: i get it from there, but it looks like it has recent changes that are not in the latest quicklisp release 2015-11-27T13:54:43Z XachX: mtl_: they will be in the December update, though 2015-11-27T13:55:12Z ZabaQ_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:55:24Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T13:55:27Z mtl_: ah, ok 2015-11-27T13:56:12Z faheem___ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:56:30Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:56:45Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:57:06Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T13:59:44Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-27T13:59:47Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:20:38Z sid_cypher: attila_lendvai: can't you request account creation on gitlab there, and merge request? 2015-11-27T15:20:40Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:21:07Z attila_lendvai: I have an account, and I'm recording a pull request, but I'm afraid it's abandoned and it'll just sit there 2015-11-27T15:21:27Z sid_cypher: oh, i see. 2015-11-27T15:24:14Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:25:59Z sid_cypher: ooh, 10-11 years without changes. The code is LLGPL licensed, so if the authors don't reply in a long while, the project can be taken over. 2015-11-27T15:26:05Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:26:41Z attila_lendvai: I couldn't create a merge request in 5 minutes. WTF gitlab, where is it hidden!? 2015-11-27T15:28:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:28:44Z attila_lendvai: bah, it silently doesn't allow merge requests from master. how helpful... 2015-11-27T15:29:27Z sid_cypher: I see some critique of Quicklisp in the logs, like "no overlays" plus "infrequent updating" equals "cannot handle bleeding edge and/or hot fixes". 2015-11-27T15:31:20Z sid_cypher: Might want to write that as an issue on github or wherever the main collaboration repo is located? 2015-11-27T15:31:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:32:09Z sid_cypher: But there are quite a lot of issues already, and nobody except Xach is not working on them. 2015-11-27T15:32:27Z jordon: Java 2015-11-27T15:32:31Z sid_cypher: Not such big issues for the most people after all, eh) 2015-11-27T15:32:49Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:33:02Z sid_cypher: *nobody is working on them 2015-11-27T15:33:12Z XachX: If I understand overlays correctly, Quicklisp can do overlays. 2015-11-27T15:33:29Z XachX: It's just that nobody is producing them, perhaps because the method is not documented. 2015-11-27T15:33:36Z DeadTrickster_: ) 2015-11-27T15:33:45Z jordon: {} 2015-11-27T15:34:04Z sid_cypher: XachX: ah, then I haven't been paying close enough attention :) Yeah, docs are important. 2015-11-27T15:34:09Z attila_lendvai is also hacking a bit of ql lately 2015-11-27T15:34:19Z DeadTrickster_: my main complain is about hot fixes if this can be solved with testing/deploying help I'm in 2015-11-27T15:34:53Z XachX has been very short of time for the past 30 days or so 2015-11-27T15:35:12Z DeadTrickster_: also I'm thinking about cl-test-grid integration 2015-11-27T15:35:31Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T15:35:42Z sid_cypher: XachX: take care and don't overwork yourself! 2015-11-27T15:36:02Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:36:16Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:36:25Z DeadTrickster_: it's like dream world - you have libs snapshot and all of them pass test. however the one question remain - tests themselves 2015-11-27T15:36:27Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:37:34Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: around? 2015-11-27T15:38:39Z fe[nl]ix: yes 2015-11-27T15:38:49Z zacts: hi lispers 2015-11-27T15:39:02Z sid_cypher: hi zacts 2015-11-27T15:39:31Z jackdaniel: I have question regarding iolib, especially socket-methods.lisp 2015-11-27T15:40:04Z jackdaniel: method close is defined on the class socket, which inherits from fd-channel-fd-mixin which is based on T 2015-11-27T15:41:34Z jackdaniel: and there is (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method)) ; – I believe this is bogus, because if close is fed with something which isn't a (gray) stream then it should signal a condition 2015-11-27T15:41:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:41:51Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-11-27T15:42:03Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:42:15Z jackdaniel: but there is no guarantee that close isn't specialized on T just to catch all invalid calls with a more specific message 2015-11-27T15:43:42Z fe[nl]ix: can you please point me to the line you're referring to ? 2015-11-27T15:43:57Z jackdaniel: socket-methods.lisp:168 2015-11-27T15:44:12Z jackdaniel: iolib/src/sockets/ 2015-11-27T15:44:35Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:46:33Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:47:09Z DeadTrickster_: it's sad read-fn and write-fn accept fd but not socket 2015-11-27T15:47:44Z fe[nl]ix: DeadTrickster_: it's easy to get the fd out of the socket 2015-11-27T15:48:06Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:48:28Z DeadTrickster_: basically I have to create closure for each socket if it has state besides fd 2015-11-27T15:49:50Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:51:36Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: I don't understand your objection 2015-11-27T15:52:35Z tkd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:52:55Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:53:47Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:13Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:14Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:14Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:37Z preacher-aka-nd joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:54:39Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:39Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:39Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:40Z preacherAKAnd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:40Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:41Z nugnuts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:54:51Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:55:06Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:55:06Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:55:06Z n2kra_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-27T15:56:23Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-27T15:58:57Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160989 , I wanted to just remove the specialization on close, but I've came to conclusion (maybe the wrong one), that this behavior is OK and it's iolib problem. 2015-11-27T16:01:10Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:01:32Z jackdaniel: (because socket doesn't inherit from the fundamental-stream) 2015-11-27T16:02:09Z phoe_krk: hm 2015-11-27T16:02:43Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:06:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:06:20Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: pretty simple, don't throw an error there 2015-11-27T16:06:20Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T16:06:55Z preacher-aka-nd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-27T16:07:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:07:13Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:07:13Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T16:07:13Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:07:24Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: as you said, SBCL -and most other implementations - don't and things work fine 2015-11-27T16:07:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T16:07:53Z larme joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:08:17Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:08:40Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:08:54Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi! 2015-11-27T16:09:27Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:09:37Z jackdaniel: neverless it's a bug and depending on bugs isn't good. I've tested only on SBCL, CCL, ABCL and ECL - CCL does what SBCL while ABCL is similar to ECL with this regard 2015-11-27T16:09:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:09:46Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: hi o/ 2015-11-27T16:09:53Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:09:56Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-27T16:09:57Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: how are you? 2015-11-27T16:10:03Z n2kra_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:10:10Z jackdaniel: I'm fine, thank you :) 2015-11-27T16:10:12Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:10:37Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:10:49Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: as a general advice, when choosing between different reasonable interpretations of the standard, do what SBCL does 2015-11-27T16:11:08Z jackdaniel: and by saying it's a bug I mean that even SBCL says you should inherit from the fundamental stream 2015-11-27T16:11:16Z jackdaniel: (in the documentation) 2015-11-27T16:13:02Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:13:42Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T16:15:19Z nyef: Heh. 2015-11-27T16:15:28Z nyef: That's interesting general advice. (-: 2015-11-27T16:16:02Z fe[nl]ix: the problem here is that the standard was written with streams in mind 2015-11-27T16:16:10Z nyef: There've been occasions when given two different reasonable interpretations of the standard, I'd've preferred the interpretation that SBCL didn't do. 2015-11-27T16:16:12Z fe[nl]ix: but datagram or packet sockets are not streams 2015-11-27T16:16:58Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:17:05Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:17:16Z fe[nl]ix: so having all sockets inherit from fundamental-stream just so that they literally conform to the standard is problematic 2015-11-27T16:17:31Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:17:56Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T16:18:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:18:10Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:18:42Z jackdaniel: I think that the least problematic solution would be using name like socket-close 2015-11-27T16:18:42Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:18:43Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: so in this case I think it's reasonable to make a small exception and allow cl:close specialized on non-streams 2015-11-27T16:18:48Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:21:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:23:09Z jordon: So in lisp are functions more important than classes 2015-11-27T16:24:06Z ggole: Arguably they are: but "more important" doesn't really tell you anything useful 2015-11-27T16:24:13Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:24:52Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T16:24:58Z ggole: eg, if you asked yourself "should I use $FEATURE1 here, or $FEATURE2?", the answer should not be a matter of which was more important, but which is a better fit for your problem. 2015-11-27T16:25:40Z eudoxia: people who have used ASDF's program-op: anyone know how to get the executable dumped in the source directory, rather than the cache? 2015-11-27T16:26:07Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-27T16:26:43Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: or even "do what most other implementations do" 2015-11-27T16:26:58Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:27:14Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T16:27:59Z fe[nl]ix: it just pisses me off when I hear from implementors stuff along the lines of "well, my choice is an arguably defensible interpretation of the standard" 2015-11-27T16:28:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:28:41Z fe[nl]ix: instead of thinking of whether it's useful or not 2015-11-27T16:29:16Z nyef: Ah, like PROG2 ? 2015-11-27T16:29:21Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: to be honest I just wanted to warn you, that you depend on undocumented "feature" of your favourite implementation which may break your code anytime 2015-11-27T16:29:29Z XachX: I don't mind when the consensus implementations are demonstrably not to spec 2015-11-27T16:29:46Z fe[nl]ix applauds to XachX 2015-11-27T16:30:06Z XachX: But when there is more than one valid way to do it, but most implementations do the same thing, also do the same thing! 2015-11-27T16:30:07Z jackdaniel: and gray streams aren't even a standard 2015-11-27T16:30:10Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:31:11Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: so you're free to do what you want 2015-11-27T16:31:28Z fe[nl]ix: that's one step away from success, i.e. wanting what SBCL does 2015-11-27T16:31:59Z fe[nl]ix: nowadays I'm only testing on SBCL and CCL 2015-11-27T16:32:03Z XachX: i am a little sad when implementations copy somewhat gross things in sbcl, like sb-bsd-sockets :( 2015-11-27T16:32:18Z jordon: There is alway ways clojure 2015-11-27T16:32:42Z fe[nl]ix: jordon: there's another channel for that 2015-11-27T16:33:30Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: it's easy to fix on the iolib and it's apparently a bug even in SBCL/CCL terms (that is abusing undocumented behavior). Just wanted to point that since it's easy to fix on the iolib side. For pragmatic reasons I'm also going to remove that T specialization from ECL – I just don't understand why you're so aggressive about that 2015-11-27T16:34:21Z fe[nl]ix: from my point of view I'm not aggressive, I'm reasonably stretching the standard, and with good results 2015-11-27T16:34:43Z fe[nl]ix: you meant "stubborn", perhaps 2015-11-27T16:35:00Z fe[nl]ix: that's not the same thing as "aggressive" 2015-11-27T16:35:08Z jackdaniel: < fe[nl]ix> it just pisses me off when I hear from implementors stuff along the lines of "well, my choice is an arguably defensible interpretation of the standard" 2015-11-27T16:35:17Z jackdaniel: ↑ I fealt that aggressive 2015-11-27T16:35:57Z Shinmera thinks recently people have been overly touchy about things in this channel. 2015-11-27T16:36:03Z fe[nl]ix: well, you have some point there 2015-11-27T16:36:30Z jackdaniel: felt° 2015-11-27T16:36:48Z fe[nl]ix: although it's more directed to other implementors, that I shall not name here 2015-11-27T16:36:50Z fe[nl]ix: :D 2015-11-27T16:37:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-27T16:37:24Z jackdaniel: either way if you reconsider this as a bug please let me know, I'll fix that in iolib then 2015-11-27T16:38:35Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T16:38:36Z fe[nl]ix: if you show me that having all sockets inherit from fundamental-stream doesn't have adverse consequences 2015-11-27T16:38:58Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I'd go the other way by renaming the method with socket-close 2015-11-27T16:39:21Z jackdaniel: if socket isn't a stream then it shouldn't be the fundamental-stream of course 2015-11-27T16:40:47Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: that would break all users' code 2015-11-27T16:41:01Z jordon: Does common lisp mostly just use a interpreter 2015-11-27T16:41:54Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: aw, right, you have a point here. Then maybe don't call the next-method? 2015-11-27T16:42:36Z fe[nl]ix: jordon: the most used implementations compiled directly to machine code 2015-11-27T16:43:57Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: in that case, the method specialized on fundamental-stream won't be called 2015-11-27T16:45:43Z fe[nl]ix: which will have the unfortunate effect that (open-stream-p stream) will return T on most implementations, even if close returns 2015-11-27T16:46:19Z Ven quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:20Z eudoxia quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:20Z Fare quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:20Z przl quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:20Z msb quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:21Z zotherstupidguy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:21Z gilez quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:21Z n2kra_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:21Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:21Z nugnuts quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:22Z joneshf-laptop quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:22Z kushal quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:22Z nyef quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:23Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:23Z psy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:23Z phoe_krk quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:24Z NhanH quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:24Z synchromesh quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:25Z jtza8 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:25Z happy-dude quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:25Z Karl_Dscc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:26Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:26Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:27Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:27Z haasn quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:28Z scymtym_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:28Z scymtym quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:28Z wolf_moz- quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:29Z abaugher quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:29Z cpc26_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:30Z musegarden3 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:30Z splittist_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:30Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:30Z marienz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:46:58Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand. So sockets provide streams interface or not? 2015-11-27T16:47:06Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: only TCP sockets 2015-11-27T16:49:02Z haasn` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:49:50Z jordon: is there any books that you can read for clojure to common lisp 2015-11-27T16:50:15Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:50:36Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:50:39Z gilez is now known as Guest53517 2015-11-27T16:50:44Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:50:58Z xristos is now known as Guest26766 2015-11-27T16:51:03Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:51:54Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:51:59Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:52:11Z jackdaniel: uhm, then it's not as easy as I tought 2015-11-27T16:52:16Z Guest26766 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T16:52:45Z novemberist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T16:52:57Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:53:08Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:53:08Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:53:56Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:54:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:54:48Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:54:53Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:55:01Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-11-27T16:55:06Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-11-27T16:55:19Z jordon: 10 print "Hello!" 2015-11-27T16:55:23Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:55:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:03Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z przl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z n2kra_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z psy joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z wolf_moz- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z musegarden3 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z splittist_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z l1x joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:22Z marienz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:33Z happy-dude quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T16:56:33Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:56:45Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T16:57:43Z Guest26766 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:58:09Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:58:19Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:58:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-27T16:59:16Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:00:25Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:00:50Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:03:11Z fe[nl]ix: hey beach 2015-11-27T17:04:16Z anti-fre_ quit 2015-11-27T17:04:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:04:59Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:08:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:11:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:13:02Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:14:10Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:14:12Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-11-27T17:14:16Z sid_cypher: hi beach^^ 2015-11-27T17:14:17Z pjb: jordon: this is #lisp, therefore either you take into account the REPL, and just do evaluate "Hello!" or you don't (eg. in a program), and therefore you do: (write-line "Hello!") or (progn (princ "Hello!") (terpri)) 2015-11-27T17:15:11Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:15:29Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:17:42Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:18:37Z beach: In case anyone is interested, I am making progress on Clump, my library of trees: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump 2015-11-27T17:21:16Z zotherst1 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:21:28Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T17:22:52Z joga_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:23:22Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-11-27T17:23:28Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:23:46Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:24:47Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:48Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:48Z bb010g quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:48Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:49Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:49Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:24:49Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:26:45Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:26:52Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T17:26:57Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:27:07Z abbe_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:27:08Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:27:20Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:27:41Z nugnuts_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:27:53Z nugnuts quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:27:53Z zotherstupidguy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:27:54Z kushal quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:27:54Z joneshf-laptop quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:27:54Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:27:54Z varjagg quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-27T17:28:00Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:29:12Z atgreen__ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:30:54Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:31:46Z trn quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-27T17:33:06Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-27T17:36:06Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:36:51Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:37:33Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:37:33Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:37:33Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:37:57Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:38:12Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:39:25Z joneshf-laptop quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T17:39:31Z farhaven quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-27T17:40:04Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:40:23Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:40:57Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:41:07Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:41:39Z trn quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-27T17:42:23Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:42:40Z bb010g quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:44:20Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:44:21Z joneshf-laptop quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T17:44:54Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:45:05Z sid_cypher: cool trees, but why classes? conses and structs should work just fine for trees. 2015-11-27T17:45:20Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:45:55Z sid_cypher: probably better asks when beach comes back. 2015-11-27T17:46:59Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:47:00Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:47:41Z joneshf-laptop quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T17:48:30Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:48:31Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:49:02Z beach: Sorry, I didn't mean to quit. Got disconnected. Freenode seems flaky today. 2015-11-27T17:49:36Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:49:39Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:49:47Z beach: sid_cypher: I don't even know where to start explaining the advantages of object-oriented design. 2015-11-27T17:50:18Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:50:23Z sid_cypher: beach: no need, i'm aware, as long as it's not message-passing method calls 2015-11-27T17:50:37Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:50:53Z beach: sid_cypher: There is no such thing in CLOS. It's all based on generic functions. 2015-11-27T17:50:58Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:51:03Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:51:28Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:51:39Z sid_cypher: beach: thanks, that's why i love lisp and hate java,c++ and what have you. 2015-11-27T17:51:45Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:52:23Z sid_cypher is actually fine with C++ not dying, it's just a bit (a lot) ugly. 2015-11-27T17:53:22Z sid_cypher: beach: i was just thinking of the case where you need pure speed instead of fancy subclassing and accessoring with hooks and whatnot. 2015-11-27T17:54:27Z sid_cypher: oh well, if i ever _actually need_ that and it's not there, i'll make a pull request :) 2015-11-27T17:54:55Z zotherst1 quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:54:56Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:54:56Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:55:46Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:56:39Z sid_cypher: btw, my mention of "message-passing method calls" indicated that sometimes "the advantages of object-oriented design" are nonexistant or negative (being disadvantages). 2015-11-27T17:57:06Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:57:06Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:57:09Z broken_clock quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T17:58:56Z Guest46266 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T17:59:47Z sid_cypher: i'm still torn on whether to use structs or classes in braculon. Classes for now, but i am definitely thinking of adding structs as well. 2015-11-27T18:00:10Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:00:19Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:00:19Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:00:20Z zotherst1 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:01:40Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:02:15Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:03:35Z trn quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-27T18:04:03Z ZabaQ_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T18:04:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:04:15Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:04:16Z joneshf-laptop quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-27T18:04:28Z futpib_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:04:42Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:05:18Z nugnuts_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:07:06Z Guest46266 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-27T18:09:24Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:09:45Z broken_clock quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:09:45Z zotherst1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:10:05Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:11:11Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:11:32Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:15:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:09Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:37Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:37Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:38Z 14WABUB8H joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:38Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:40Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:41Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:41Z 14WABUB8H quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:41Z futpib_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:41Z sytse_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:19:41Z sytse joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:42Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:42Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:43Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:43Z Draz quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T18:19:43Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:43Z trn joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:19:44Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:20:11Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:20:17Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:20:22Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:20:37Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:21:49Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:22:12Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:22:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:25:06Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:25:47Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-27T18:26:03Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:26:41Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-27T18:27:35Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:28:24Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:28:59Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:32:29Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:33:30Z jordon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T18:33:32Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:33:54Z jordon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:36:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:36:54Z zotherst1 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:37:33Z attila_lendvai: luis: now that the slime crown was handed over to you... would you accept some more ASDF integration? right now what hurts me is that I cannot :depends-on (:swank) without a proper .asd file or something like this: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/slime/commit/623ea28278874e5916a49e056d922e6737cead62 2015-11-27T18:38:41Z attila_lendvai: luis: an another interesting question: does this open a path for merging back with sly? 2015-11-27T18:40:55Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:40:56Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T18:41:36Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:41:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:41:50Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T18:42:25Z autonomicon joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:43:52Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 2015-11-27T18:44:14Z jordon: Does common lisp use objects at all 2015-11-27T18:44:25Z beach: I was disconnected before I could say the following: I intend to write complete tests and documentation for splay trees in Clump. After that I will put Clump on hold and concentrate on my new library Cluffer, which uses splay trees from Clump: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer 2015-11-27T18:44:26Z oleo: jep 2015-11-27T18:44:43Z oleo: 1 is an object (list 1 2) is an object..... 2015-11-27T18:44:49Z oleo: it's objects all the way down...... 2015-11-27T18:45:30Z ngrud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:46:07Z oleo: are symbols the most complex DS in lisp ? 2015-11-27T18:46:13Z beach: jordon: Since you asked about books, "Practical Common Lisp" is what is usually recommended here to people who already have programming experience with other language. 2015-11-27T18:46:15Z beach: s 2015-11-27T18:46:27Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-11-27T18:46:31Z oleo: they look the easiest but are the most complex or so.... 2015-11-27T18:47:05Z beach: oleo: Nah, packages are probably more complex. 2015-11-27T18:47:15Z oleo: ah 2015-11-27T18:47:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:48:19Z beach: oleo: Also, functions that are often presented as being accessors on symbols such as symbol-value, symbol-plist, symbol-function, etc should be seen as accessors on the global environment rather than on symbols. 2015-11-27T18:48:29Z dent_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:48:33Z jordon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T18:48:34Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:48:42Z beach: Er, symbol-value would be an accessor on the run-time environment. 2015-11-27T18:49:16Z beach: oleo: So in SICL, symbols have only a name and a package. 2015-11-27T18:49:25Z beach: Fairly simple. 2015-11-27T18:49:37Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T18:49:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:49:59Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T18:49:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:50:01Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:50:20Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:50:37Z beach: sid_cypher: What makes you think standard objects (what you call "classes") are slow? 2015-11-27T18:51:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:51:51Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:53:08Z ukari_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:53:35Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T18:54:17Z autonomicon quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T18:54:49Z sid_cypher: beach: you have to make hierarchy-related checks and the accessor calls result in doing more stuff, i suppose. 2015-11-27T18:56:14Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:56:44Z beach: sid_cypher: You need to read more so that your opinions are not based on guesswork, for instance: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf 2015-11-27T18:57:10Z sid_cypher: beach: thank you, i'll do that. 2015-11-27T18:57:26Z beach: Good. Let me know if you have any questions. 2015-11-27T18:57:48Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:59:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-27T18:59:35Z ggole quit 2015-11-27T19:00:00Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-27T19:00:08Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:00:35Z beach: sid_cypher: I don't know whether you are a software professional, but for such people, it is of utmost importance to know the mechanisms and their costs. Otherwise, the risk of making catastrophically wrong decisions in a software project are very high. 2015-11-27T19:01:31Z beach: sid_cypher: I have seen this phenomenon over and over again with my own eyes. It is very sad really. I am working on a book about the sorry state of the software industry for that very reason. 2015-11-27T19:01:54Z synchromesh: beach: That's arguably pretty much the definition of "professional"... 2015-11-27T19:02:10Z beach: What id? 2015-11-27T19:02:12Z beach: is? 2015-11-27T19:02:16Z sid_cypher: beach: true. however, finding the right balance between learning and doing is very hard, and you can't learn everything. I'll definitely try :) 2015-11-27T19:02:29Z beach: "professional" means a person conducting an activity for money. 2015-11-27T19:02:42Z beach: "amateur" means a person conducting an activity out of love. 2015-11-27T19:02:55Z dent_: learn Java if you want to make money with programming 2015-11-27T19:02:58Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T19:03:00Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:03:27Z synchromesh: beach: Knowing the costs and benefits of the mechanisms underlying the available choices. OK, that's more a definition of "engineer" than "professional" now I think about it. :) 2015-11-27T19:03:58Z dent_: every software engineer needs to know C 2015-11-27T19:03:59Z beach: So, unfortunately, in the software industry, "professional" is typically someone with totally insufficient knowledge to conduct the activities he or she is paid to do. 2015-11-27T19:04:40Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:05:02Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:05:03Z beach: synchromesh: Yes, "engineer" is a better term for that kind of person. 2015-11-27T19:05:41Z beach: Anyway, time to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2015-11-27T19:05:43Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-27T19:07:30Z scottj: Can format look at the length of elements in future lines before deciding what width to use for an element in the first line? For example, http://dpaste.com/1TG23CQ Or do I have to manually find the max length in "a" column and pass that length to format as an arg? 2015-11-27T19:09:05Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:11:27Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:12:29Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:12:36Z ssake_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T19:12:52Z sid_cypher: beach: great paper. it does say, though, that the performance improvements are foreseeable, but the described techniques need to be introduced and tested. So I was relying on rule-of-thumb heuristics because those measurements were not immediately available to me, and the decisions i make are not critical. 2015-11-27T19:13:14Z ssake quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T19:13:17Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:13:21Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:13:32Z dent_: How do I stop wasteing time on IRC 2015-11-27T19:13:34Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:13:38Z kdas_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T19:13:44Z jackdaniel: dent_: pkill irssi 2015-11-27T19:15:01Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-27T19:15:01Z sid_cypher: beach: the table with implementation/cpu_clock/time/cycles is enlightening, though. 2015-11-27T19:18:25Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:18:29Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:19:10Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:19:53Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:20:54Z sid_cypher: Software industry is not the only one full of "professionals" with totally insufficient knowledge :) 2015-11-27T19:21:04Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:21:19Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T19:21:40Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-27T19:21:55Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:23:21Z sweater- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:23:35Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:24:11Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:24:59Z joast joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:25:59Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:26:52Z sid_cypher: the higher your standards for "sufficient", the less people there a to hire, since few people actually want to keep learning. 2015-11-27T19:27:15Z joast quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-27T19:28:53Z sid_cypher: I am still a beginner myself, and I wouldn't be able to do anything useful if I worried about making catastrophically wrong decisions due to my lack of knowledge. 2015-11-27T19:29:40Z sid_cypher: One reason I hang out there is to bounce my noob ideas off people with actual experience. 2015-11-27T19:30:03Z sid_cypher: there -> here in #lisp 2015-11-27T19:30:30Z vydd: does anyone know of a library like http://www.angusj.com/delphi/clipper.php for CL? (polygon clipping and offsetting) 2015-11-27T19:32:50Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-27T19:33:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:34:46Z Nilby joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:35:32Z sid_cypher: vydd: apparently cl-geom does polygon clipping in 2D, but i just googled it, didn't use it myself. 2015-11-27T19:36:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:36:49Z joast joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:37:44Z vydd: sid_cypher: Thanks! I haven't thought about googling for more general terms for some reason. I see there's cl-geometry as well. Hopefully one of those includes the things I need. 2015-11-27T19:38:04Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:38:35Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T19:39:12Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:39:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:49:20Z jesse1 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:50:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:50:28Z easye joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:52:11Z DynamicMetaFlow joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:52:21Z easye quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-27T19:53:35Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T19:53:36Z DynamicMetaFlow: Hello everyone! I've been studyin common lisp for about a month or so. I'm going over the Structure and Interpretation videos and I'm reading Common Lisp, A gentle introduction to symbolic computation. Can anyone recommend me of any projects that I could read the source code written in lisp to study it. 2015-11-27T19:54:23Z Shinmera: Edi Weitz' software is often recommended, most specifically cl-ppcre. 2015-11-27T19:54:44Z easye joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:55:30Z haasn` is now known as haasn 2015-11-27T19:56:29Z vydd: DynamicMetaFlow: are you new to programming as well, or just CL? 2015-11-27T19:57:10Z DynamicMetaFlow: Thank you 2015-11-27T19:57:40Z DynamicMetaFlow: I've familiar with Python and Ruby mostly. 2015-11-27T19:58:14Z Shinmera: Then you might also want to look at Practical Common Lisp-- the general recommended book as an introduction to CL for people who know programming already. 2015-11-27T19:58:34Z Shinmera: It goes through a couple of interesting practical projects as well, which are generally considered to be very well written. 2015-11-27T19:58:35Z DynamicMetaFlow: Practical Common Lisp should be coming in the mail next week :) 2015-11-27T19:59:05Z DynamicMetaFlow: Good to know, thank you very much. 2015-11-27T19:59:11Z Ahappyduck joined #lisp 2015-11-27T19:59:24Z DeadTrickster: isn't it already outdated? 2015-11-27T19:59:28Z Ahappyduck: Is F# the same as common lisp 2015-11-27T19:59:29Z Shinmera: If you're a bit impatient, you can read the book online. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-11-27T19:59:35Z DeadTrickster: Ahappyduck, sure 2015-11-27T19:59:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:00:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:00:29Z DynamicMetaFlow: Ah, I forgot about the online version of the book. Thank you, it will come in handy. 2015-11-27T20:01:33Z jesse1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T20:01:40Z DeadTrickster: sicp videos whats next? TL;DR editions? 2015-11-27T20:02:28Z DynamicMetaFlow: I'm not sure, but I do enjoy the sicp videos. 2015-11-27T20:02:35Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:02:51Z ben_vulpes is now known as retrunque 2015-11-27T20:03:23Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:04:04Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:04:23Z DeadTrickster: just got dead lock. first in five or so years! 2015-11-27T20:04:43Z maucar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:05:39Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:06:06Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:06:18Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:08:41Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:08:44Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:09:08Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T20:09:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:11:31Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-27T20:13:59Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:14:58Z Posterdati: hi 2015-11-27T20:16:28Z Posterdati: please I need help using binary-types define-bitfield. Is there any example (README.bitfield apart) 2015-11-27T20:16:34Z Posterdati: ? 2015-11-27T20:17:57Z anti-freeze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T20:19:29Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:19:32Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:19:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:21:58Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T20:22:18Z sid_cypher: Posterdati: apparently there are none. Read the source of the define-bitfield macro and try to figure out what it does. 2015-11-27T20:22:45Z Posterdati: :( 2015-11-27T20:24:29Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:28:29Z anti-freeze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T20:33:42Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T20:36:47Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T20:38:39Z phoe_krk: How do I simply concatenate a (list "a" "b" "c" "d" "e")? 2015-11-27T20:39:11Z rszeno: coerce 2015-11-27T20:40:05Z PuercoPop: use the list iteration from format 2015-11-27T20:40:19Z PuercoPop: rszeno: it is not a list of characters but a list of strings in this case 2015-11-27T20:40:42Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: (format nil "~{~A~}" (list "a" "b" ..)) 2015-11-27T20:40:59Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: thanks! 2015-11-27T20:41:39Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:42:05Z rszeno: doesn't matter that are strings 2015-11-27T20:42:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:42:31Z PuercoPop: rszeno: it does in my sbcl at least 2015-11-27T20:43:24Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:43:57Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T20:44:41Z kvltar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:44:49Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:44:54Z kvltar left #lisp 2015-11-27T20:45:54Z ukari quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.3) 2015-11-27T20:48:35Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:48:41Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:49:20Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:52:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T20:53:28Z sid_cypher: i use string concatenation so often that i've made "cat" macros just to avoid typing format or apply 2015-11-27T20:54:57Z rszeno: imo concatenation and format are slower then using coerce and decomposing sequences in characters 2015-11-27T20:55:31Z rszeno: but is a little bit more complicated 2015-11-27T20:55:39Z _death: I try to avoid using strings for structured data.. so catenation is pretty rare 2015-11-27T20:58:39Z jimston joined #lisp 2015-11-27T20:58:47Z jimston: hello, lispers! 2015-11-27T20:58:57Z jimston: Can you help me please with a decision? What is better to learn for practical usage - Racket or Common Lisp? 2015-11-27T20:59:26Z sid_cypher: most of the times i just want to piece a few strings like "/static/" and (pathname-name file) together. 2015-11-27T20:59:27Z Shinmera: Well this channel is for Common Lisp, so.. Common Lisp. 2015-11-27T20:59:53Z rszeno: if you ask here common lisp if you ask on scheme racket or other scheme, :) 2015-11-27T21:00:43Z jimston: oh :-) 2015-11-27T21:00:46Z jimston: cool... 2015-11-27T21:00:50Z sid_cypher: what would #lispcafe do? :) 2015-11-27T21:01:14Z Shinmera: #lispcafe is still mostly CL. ##lisp might be the more interesting option. 2015-11-27T21:01:41Z zcr joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:03:23Z Ahappyduck quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-11-27T21:03:29Z dent_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T21:03:58Z iddqd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-27T21:04:05Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:06:06Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:06:26Z PuercoPop: rszeno: iirc stassats wrote some code so that some (format nil ..) translate to coerce. I am aware that I tend to abuse format (and loop) and than in general it is preferable to use coerce when they result in equivalent amount of code. 2015-11-27T21:07:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T21:07:11Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:07:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-27T21:07:11Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:08:41Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-11-27T21:09:12Z sakalli_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:09:38Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:09:50Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-27T21:11:47Z sakalli_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-27T21:13:41Z sid_cypher: how do you coerce a list of one character long strings? wouldn't you have to map it with (aref string 0) first? 2015-11-27T21:14:34Z PuercoPop: sid_cypher: yes 2015-11-27T21:16:44Z sid_cypher: i'll try to test what's faster: ten million of (coerce (map ...) ...) or ten million (concatenate ...) 2015-11-27T21:17:08Z sakalli joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:17:33Z phoe_krk: Okay, so I have my (format nil "~{~A~}" list). How do I separate the list entries with newlines? "~{~A~%~}" would work, but it gives me an unwanted newline at the end. 2015-11-27T21:18:10Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-27T21:18:23Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T21:18:28Z rszeno: why don't you put ~% before ~A 2015-11-27T21:18:30Z rszeno: ? 2015-11-27T21:19:06Z Bicyclidine: ~{~A~^~%~}, isn't it 2015-11-27T21:20:33Z phoe_krk: Verily. Bicyclidine, thanks. 2015-11-27T21:20:39Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:20:51Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-27T21:22:36Z sakalli_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:23:06Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:25:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:26:26Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:26:52Z maucar quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-11-27T21:27:43Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-27T21:27:49Z sid_cypher: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161013 coerce+aref is faster than concatenate in my SBCL 2015-11-27T21:28:07Z Shinmera: How big are your strings? 2015-11-27T21:28:13Z Shinmera: Err, sets of strings 2015-11-27T21:28:38Z Shinmera: Might want to try with different sizes. 2015-11-27T21:28:39Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:28:59Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: it's in the paste - string length one, list length fiftyish 2015-11-27T21:29:19Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:29:44Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk asked "How do I simply concatenate a (list "a" "b" "c" "d" "e")" 2015-11-27T21:30:10Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: I already grabbed Format. 2015-11-27T21:30:17Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:30:32Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: yeah, i was just playing around. 2015-11-27T21:30:47Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:33:00Z sid_cypher: (format nil "~{~A~^~%~}" strlist)) is the slowest - 10 seconds in the same benchmark. 2015-11-27T21:35:32Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:40:48Z blubjr joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:41:33Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:42:46Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T21:49:06Z Shinmera: There's quite a difference actually. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/api/plaster/raw?id=DN 2015-11-27T21:50:16Z [nickname] joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:51:20Z Bicyclidine: 115 sec versus a fifth of a second? 2015-11-27T21:51:32Z Shinmera: I'm surprised that concatenate is doing so badly. 2015-11-27T21:51:56Z Shinmera: I would've thought that the extra consing of the mapcar could outweigh it at some point. 2015-11-27T21:53:29Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T21:54:40Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T21:55:49Z [nickname]: I have a problem with a proprietary scripting language: the glyphs that it uses in its syntax are wrong. As wrong as though somebody would use the symbol "/" for addition, or "*" for subtraction—asinine. What's a good strategy to solve this kind of problem—meaning, solving it at the level of repairing the language itself, not at the level of "make aliases to the symbols for your own use" . . .? 2015-11-27T21:56:42Z Shinmera: How is this lisp related? 2015-11-27T21:56:43Z Bicyclidine: wrong channel? 2015-11-27T21:56:51Z Bicyclidine: also if it's proprietary how do you intend to fix anything. 2015-11-27T21:57:01Z [nickname]: Isn't Lisp a good tool to solve this kind of problem? 2015-11-27T21:57:12Z [nickname]: It's our property. 2015-11-27T21:57:34Z Bicyclidine: to solve the problem of having to edit code? 2015-11-27T21:58:19Z [nickname]: No; to solve the problem or redesigning/reimplementing a scripting language. 2015-11-27T21:58:50Z jlarocco: if you're reimplementing it, why not just implement it with correct glyphs? 2015-11-27T22:00:18Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T22:00:21Z [nickname]: A kind of refactoring the language? 2015-11-27T22:02:23Z [nickname]: ok; thanks 2015-11-27T22:02:34Z [nickname] left #lisp 2015-11-27T22:02:50Z Shinmera: Well ok then. 2015-11-27T22:03:11Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:09:30Z zyg joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:09:56Z zyg: Howdy! What LAPACK wrappers do you use? 2015-11-27T22:13:54Z phoe_krk: "No character which corresponds to octet #x92." <- Is there a way for flexi-streams to gracefully recover in these cases? Output an escaped character like (format t "~A" (code-char 152)) does in there or something? 2015-11-27T22:16:34Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: your paste even shows that concatenate does _more_ consing, if i'm reading correctly. 2015-11-27T22:17:27Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T22:17:38Z Shinmera: Which is confusing because concatenate should be able to just figure out the total length by scanning once and thus only needing to allocate the final string. 2015-11-27T22:17:40Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:18:00Z edgar-rf_ quit (Quit: edgar-rf_) 2015-11-27T22:18:11Z Guest53517 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:18:58Z sid_cypher: probably underoptimized due to low usage or something. 2015-11-27T22:21:29Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:21:50Z Shinmera: Of course doing something like (with-output-to-string (o) (dolist (i l) (write-char (char i 0) o))) is by far the most efficient. 2015-11-27T22:22:04Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:22:10Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:22:19Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:22:26Z sweater- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:22:48Z Shinmera: (might not be as efficient as the above suggested method but I'm too lazy to find out) 2015-11-27T22:23:49Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:24:31Z anti-freeze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T22:24:36Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: confirmed highest efficiency for with-output-to-string, 1.7s vs mapcar with 1.8 2015-11-27T22:24:51Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:25:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:26:03Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:26:06Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:26:42Z Shinmera: Turns out I was more lazy regarding real work than this. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/api/plaster/raw?id=DO 2015-11-27T22:27:14Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:27:47Z Shinmera: The difference only starts showing for even larger sets. 2015-11-27T22:27:49Z jimston quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-27T22:27:51Z sid_cypher: this is the Ultimate Showdown.. of Ultimate Destiny. 2015-11-27T22:34:25Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161013#1 - LOOP is the champion. 2015-11-27T22:35:02Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:36:16Z sid_cypher: loop has the least GC runtime and deviation, too. Yay loop. 2015-11-27T22:39:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:40:14Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T22:40:22Z rvchangue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:41:14Z phoe_krk: ...for a while I hoped I'd be able to use external-program 2015-11-27T22:41:24Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: you just pasted an error message. you might want to catch the error with a handler-case or something, add some saving grace to the poor stream. 2015-11-27T22:41:42Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: my bad, I was using a wrong external format 2015-11-27T22:41:46Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-27T22:41:52Z phoe_krk: changing :ASCII to :LATIN-1 helped 2015-11-27T22:41:56Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:42:04Z sid_cypher: great^^ 2015-11-27T22:42:49Z phoe_krk: ...hey 2015-11-27T22:42:54Z phoe_krk: (asdf:run-shell-command string) 2015-11-27T22:42:57Z phoe_krk: this is godlike 2015-11-27T22:43:29Z phoe_krk: except... is there anything non-blocking? 2015-11-27T22:43:33Z sid_cypher: why not (uiop:run-program ?) 2015-11-27T22:43:57Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: no idea, work seem to both the same for me 2015-11-27T22:44:16Z Shinmera: RUN-SHELL-COMMAND is deprecated if I remember correctly 2015-11-27T22:45:08Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: you're correct, uiop seems the current one 2015-11-27T22:45:53Z Shinmera: As for non-blocking, the external-program wrapper allows you to do that 2015-11-27T22:45:58Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: win32. 2015-11-27T22:45:59Z Shinmera: *wrapper library 2015-11-27T22:46:06Z sid_cypher: non-blocking means add async yourself. tried cl-async, looks like overkill, maybe not. 2015-11-27T22:46:25Z Shinmera: non-blocking just means it doesn't block. 2015-11-27T22:46:25Z sid_cypher: ooh, external-program. 2015-11-27T22:46:27Z phoe_krk: I'll just wrap it in bt. 2015-11-27T22:46:34Z phoe_krk: Ugly, but working. 2015-11-27T22:46:46Z phoe_krk: I don't need any output or input from it, I just need to spawn a program. 2015-11-27T22:46:47Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: What about win32? 2015-11-27T22:47:20Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: Couldn't execute "\\usr\\bin\\env": File not found. 2015-11-27T22:47:22Z phoe_krk: That's what. 2015-11-27T22:47:47Z phoe_krk: It would be silly to search for \usr\bin\env on win32, but yet it does. 2015-11-27T22:48:05Z Shinmera: The source seems to imply it shouldn't. https://github.com/sellout/external-program/blob/master/src/sbcl.lisp#L29 2015-11-27T22:48:37Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:48:41Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-27T22:49:49Z sid_cypher: ...what if you have a Windows port of SBCL 2015-11-27T22:50:01Z Shinmera: What about it 2015-11-27T22:50:04Z phoe_krk: Backtrace: 2015-11-27T22:50:04Z phoe_krk: 0: (SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM "/usr/bin/env" ("c:\\Program Files (x86)\\Furcadia\\Furcadia.exe") :ENV NIL :ENVIRONMENT NIL :WAIT T :SEARCH T :INPUT NIL :IF-INPUT-DOES-NOT-EXIST NIL :OUTPUT NIL :IF-OUTPUT-EXISTS.. 2015-11-27T22:50:25Z phoe_krk: It attempts running /usr/bin/env and not my program. 2015-11-27T22:50:35Z Shinmera: Weird. 2015-11-27T22:51:42Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-27T22:51:44Z phoe_krk: Shinmera. 2015-11-27T22:51:50Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/sellout/external-program/blob/master/src/sbcl.lisp#L9 2015-11-27T22:51:52Z Shinmera: That is my name indeed. 2015-11-27T22:51:58Z phoe_krk: > (member :windows *features*) 2015-11-27T22:52:01Z phoe_krk: NIL 2015-11-27T22:52:10Z Shinmera: Hm. 2015-11-27T22:52:14Z phoe_krk: (member :win32 *features*) 2015-11-27T22:52:18Z phoe_krk: (:WIN32 :X86-64) 2015-11-27T22:52:37Z Shinmera: Looks like it's not depending on trivial-features when it should. 2015-11-27T22:53:12Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-27T22:53:34Z Shinmera: Ah there's an issue for it already. 2015-11-27T22:53:42Z phoe_krk: Well. 2015-11-27T22:53:47Z phoe_krk: Quickloading trivial-features. 2015-11-27T22:54:13Z Shinmera: Make sure to force-reload external-program after. 2015-11-27T22:54:39Z phoe_krk: What's the command? 2015-11-27T22:54:51Z JX7P left #lisp 2015-11-27T22:54:54Z Shinmera: (asdf:load-system :external-program :force T) 2015-11-27T22:55:14Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:55:44Z phoe_krk: Nope. 2015-11-27T22:55:46Z phoe_krk: Doesn't fix it. 2015-11-27T22:55:51Z Shinmera: Ah well. 2015-11-27T22:56:02Z phoe_krk: Let me try on a clean install. 2015-11-27T22:56:06Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:56:08Z phoe_krk: s/install/Lisp image/ 2015-11-27T22:56:43Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-11-27T22:57:13Z phoe_krk: No, this doesn't help at all. 2015-11-27T22:57:35Z sid_cypher: zyg: there is (ql:quickload :lapack), seems to work 2015-11-27T23:00:39Z phoe_krk: I'll use something that works now, bt over uiop. 2015-11-27T23:00:59Z zyg: sid_cypher: that seems to be the f2cl package 2015-11-27T23:01:13Z zcr: Can someone help me with this?: I'm using COND but the last test is giving me an undefined t error, ive been looking at this for a while but I cant figure out the syntax error. 2015-11-27T23:01:14Z zcr: https://bpaste.net/show/c5a066832c45 2015-11-27T23:01:24Z zcr: the error: https://bpaste.net/show/85fd0a854c29 2015-11-27T23:02:28Z Shinmera: You're missing a set of parens on your other clauses. 2015-11-27T23:02:36Z sid_cypher: zyg: i've never used lapack and barely touched fortran, so i don't know what is wrong with that :) 2015-11-27T23:03:23Z mood: zcr: The first opening paren inside the cond wraps everything, while it should probably only wrap the first line 2015-11-27T23:03:25Z Shinmera: zcr: You could also use case here. (case (first x) (good ..) (bad ..) (T ..)) 2015-11-27T23:04:10Z zcr: Shinmera: Im following a book so im just using what is being presented but ill keep that noted for the future 2015-11-27T23:06:06Z zyg: sid_cypher: it seems "LAPACK" package uses lapack fortran files as a test suite for the fortran-cl translator. I'm after a liblapack.so wrapper to be more specific. I found LLA and is now digging in its sources. 2015-11-27T23:06:06Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T23:06:22Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T23:06:37Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:07:22Z Shinmera: zyg: There's also cl-blapack 2015-11-27T23:07:30Z zcr: Im not understanding what you guys are saying, the first paren inside the cond is wrapping everything else: http://s18.postimg.org/z317il6k7/2015_11_27_160547_508x69_scrot.png 2015-11-27T23:08:19Z Shinmera: zcr: And that's wrong. Every cond clause has its own set. (cond ((equal ..) ..) ((equal ..) ..) (T ..)) 2015-11-27T23:09:22Z zyg: Shinmera: that package isn't quickloadable so I avoided that. 2015-11-27T23:09:41Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:09:45Z mood: sid_cypher: Shinmera: Another option for your optimization attempts, short and fast: MAP 'STRING 2015-11-27T23:09:48Z mood: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161019 2015-11-27T23:11:13Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:11:55Z sid_cypher: mood: seem like it doesn't do the same thing. 2015-11-27T23:15:09Z sid_cypher: hm, it does, and well enough, too. 2015-11-27T23:16:11Z zcr: Thank you mood and Shinmera, I understand it now 2015-11-27T23:22:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:23:20Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:27:11Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:28:59Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:31:59Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:34:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:35:19Z froggey_ is now known as froggey 2015-11-27T23:35:35Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:38:07Z phoe_krk: ...heh 2015-11-27T23:39:07Z phoe_krk: Can I anyhow run cmd commands with uiop:run-program though? I haven't been able to make a single one work just yet. 2015-11-27T23:41:04Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-27T23:41:05Z Bicyclidine: run-program won't spawn a shell, so you can't use, uh.... whatever works on windows terminals 2015-11-27T23:41:05Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T23:41:14Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:41:17Z phoe_krk: Blerg, random disconnection. 2015-11-27T23:42:43Z Bicyclidine: freenode has been weird today, i think 2015-11-27T23:42:46Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:43:12Z phoe_krk: (uiop:run-program "dir c:" :force-shell t) <- wtf 2015-11-27T23:45:04Z Bicyclidine: wtf? 2015-11-27T23:45:04Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:45:40Z phoe_krk: yes 2015-11-27T23:45:49Z phoe_krk: constantly exits with status 1. 2015-11-27T23:45:57Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:45:59Z phoe_krk: which means, fails. 2015-11-27T23:47:22Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:47:50Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:49:41Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 254 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:50:15Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:50:17Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-11-27T23:50:46Z anti-freeze quit 2015-11-27T23:50:54Z LucyParsons quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T23:51:04Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: did you use keys :output *standard-output* etc? 2015-11-27T23:51:22Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:51:50Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:51:54Z phoe_krk: (uiop:run-program "c:/windows/system32/cmd.exe" :output *standard-output*) 2015-11-27T23:51:54Z phoe_krk: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2015-11-27T23:52:19Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 254 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:52:39Z phoe_krk: ...waitttttt, sid_cypher. 2015-11-27T23:52:45Z phoe_krk: that's some good stuff. 2015-11-27T23:53:36Z sid_cypher: getting more out of error condition or :error-output stream? 2015-11-27T23:53:41Z pillton: (uiop:run-program (list "dir" "c:") ...) 2015-11-27T23:55:20Z phoe_krk: it hangs on read currently. 2015-11-27T23:55:29Z phoe_krk: (uiop:run-program (list "dir" "c:") :output *standard-output* :input *standard-input* :error *standard-output*) 2015-11-27T23:55:36Z defaultxr quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2015-11-27T23:55:38Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds) 2015-11-27T23:55:41Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:56:22Z sid_cypher: phoe_krk: if you did :input, press ENTER or something 2015-11-27T23:56:30Z phoe_krk: or, what looks much shorter, (uiop:run-program (list "dir" "c:") :output t :input t :error t) 2015-11-27T23:56:32Z sid_cypher: you don't have to bind input 2015-11-27T23:56:50Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: nothing. just keeps on reading. 2015-11-27T23:57:02Z pillton: clhs directory 2015-11-27T23:57:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 2015-11-27T23:57:03Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: ..ooh 2015-11-27T23:57:30Z phoe_krk: pillton: I don't want to grab the contents of a directory, I want to execute a different command. 2015-11-27T23:57:34Z sid_cypher: C-u ENTER in SLIME to EOF 2015-11-27T23:57:56Z modula joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:58:52Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-27T23:59:38Z broken_c1ock joined #lisp 2015-11-27T23:59:46Z broken_clock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T23:59:46Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-27T23:59:59Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:01:01Z pillton: phoe_krk: I would try getting it working using the implementation provided run-program first in order to see if the implementation supports Windows. 2015-11-28T00:01:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:01:15Z zyg quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-11-28T00:02:23Z sid_cypher: pillton: oh but the whole point of uiop as part of asdf is to be portable and working everywhere 2015-11-28T00:02:46Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:02:52Z pillton: "I would try getting it working ..... FIRST" 2015-11-28T00:03:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:03:20Z pillton: Where is the problem? In UIOP or the implementation? 2015-11-28T00:03:30Z sid_cypher: pillton: okay, i see your point, might be impl. 2015-11-28T00:03:49Z sid_cypher: unlikely, though 2015-11-28T00:03:57Z phoe_krk: pillton: it does. 2015-11-28T00:03:59Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-28T00:04:24Z pillton: Forking and exec across OSes isn't trivial from what I've seen. 2015-11-28T00:05:04Z pillton: phoe_krk: What does "it does" mean? 2015-11-28T00:05:29Z sid_cypher: it does support windows, implementation that is 2015-11-28T00:06:10Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:06:44Z phoe_krk: it works under implementation. 2015-11-28T00:06:44Z phoe_krk: but I'll check *again*. 2015-11-28T00:06:48Z pillton: Please make "it does" mean: I've got the implementation provided run-program function doing the right thing when invoked with "dir c:". 2015-11-28T00:06:53Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-28T00:07:52Z phoe_krk: (run-program "c:/Program Files (x86)/Furcadia/Furcadia.exe" "") works. 2015-11-28T00:08:00Z DynamicMetaFlow: Out of curiosity what would be a good language to know to complement common lisp, I know its a rather weird question 2015-11-28T00:08:07Z phoe_krk: I mean. 2015-11-28T00:08:23Z phoe_krk: (sb-impl:run-program "c:/Program Files (x86)/Furcadia/Furcadia.exe" "") works. (sb-impl:run-program "c:/Windows/system32/cmd.exe" "") does not. 2015-11-28T00:08:30Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T00:09:29Z Bicyclidine: Complement? 2015-11-28T00:09:50Z blubjr: dynamicmetaflow: apl 2015-11-28T00:09:52Z sid_cypher: DynamicMetaFlow: C language :) or Forth 2015-11-28T00:11:25Z nyef: pillton: Does "forking and exec across OSes" mean that a program running on Linux could fork and exec to windows? (-: 2015-11-28T00:11:29Z p_l: phoe_krk: except it's not possible to call DIR C: in windows that way, because DIR is not a program 2015-11-28T00:11:35Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:12:05Z sid_cypher: p_l: good catch, you are a mystery solver. 2015-11-28T00:12:32Z p_l: as for cmd.exe, I'd have to check, but right now I'm dealing with backing up a borked phone ;) 2015-11-28T00:12:41Z phadthai: DynamicMetaFlow: what's underneath the main implementation you use is a good idea to understand too, (java+jvm in case of abcl, assembler in the case of sbcl, C in the case of ECL, etc), this will allow you to both improve the implementation or develop extensions, connect to OS or hardware services with it, etc 2015-11-28T00:13:34Z phoe_krk: p_l: xD 2015-11-28T00:13:43Z p_l: but generally, I don't think there was a "popen" style access to CMD.EXE 2015-11-28T00:14:05Z phadthai: DynamicMetaFlow: cffi is also a good thing to know because it's rather generic (although not necessarily a language) 2015-11-28T00:14:25Z joga_ is now known as joga 2015-11-28T00:14:33Z sid_cypher: http://ss64.com/nt/cmd.html parameter /C does it 2015-11-28T00:15:13Z phoe_krk: ...okay. 2015-11-28T00:15:19Z p_l: sid_cypher: was just going to suggest that :) 2015-11-28T00:15:28Z phoe_krk: Another way. 2015-11-28T00:15:38Z phoe_krk: I need to CD into a folder and execute an .exe from there. 2015-11-28T00:15:46Z phoe_krk: That's what I want. 2015-11-28T00:16:22Z DynamicMetaFlow: thank you very much, I was thinking along the same lines, so this is helpful 2015-11-28T00:16:27Z phoe_krk: Because I cannot execute it alone, because it's buggy as hell and crashes when ran outside of its folder. 2015-11-28T00:16:50Z p_l: heh, I was wondering when CL's lack of "current directory" concept will bite someone on my watch xD 2015-11-28T00:17:23Z sid_cypher: Multiple commands separated by the command separator '&' or '&&' are accepted if surrounded by quotes. 2015-11-28T00:17:27Z pillton: nyef: My apologies for my poor English. 2015-11-28T00:18:11Z sid_cypher: so "/whatever/path/cmd.exe" "/C" "'cd dir' & 'command'" 2015-11-28T00:18:13Z joga quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T00:18:13Z joga joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:18:36Z opcode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:18:38Z phoe_krk: The command that works for me, using CMD, is: 2015-11-28T00:18:40Z phoe_krk: cmd /s /c " cd "c:\Program Files (x86)\Furcadia" && Furcadia.exe " 2015-11-28T00:18:52Z phoe_krk: Now. 2015-11-28T00:18:59Z phoe_krk: I have to execute that from Lisp. 2015-11-28T00:20:12Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T00:20:37Z opcode joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:21:02Z nyef: pillton: It's not your English that's at issue, it's my sense of humor. 2015-11-28T00:22:48Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-11-28T00:22:49Z phoe_krk: (uiop:run-program "c:\\windows\\system32\\cmd.exe" :output t :error t :force-shell nil :external-format :latin-1) 2015-11-28T00:22:51Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 328 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:23:00Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:24:24Z phoe_krk: This one worked. 2015-11-28T00:24:49Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:26:16Z phoe_krk: ...yessssss. 2015-11-28T00:26:36Z phoe_krk: It's the weird, weird combination of the keywords. 2015-11-28T00:26:41Z phoe_krk: (uiop:run-program "cd c:\\Program Files (x86)\\Furcadia\\ && Furcadia.exe" :output t :error t :force-shell nil :external-format :latin-1) <- this one works. 2015-11-28T00:26:55Z phoe_krk: I completely don't understand :force-shell's behaviour. It seems reversed. 2015-11-28T00:27:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:31:20Z DynamicM` joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:31:23Z GUEST_4567345 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:31:23Z DynamicMetaFlow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T00:31:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:33:29Z Draz quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:34:26Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:36:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:36:29Z nugnuts joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:40:56Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T00:43:33Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:43:58Z DynamicM`: Can anyone recommend any language agnostic books that they enjoy 2015-11-28T00:46:02Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T00:47:17Z Guest26766 is now known as xristos 2015-11-28T00:47:24Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T00:47:24Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:47:43Z Bicyclidine: TAOCP? Intelligence as adaptive behavior? Middlemarch? 2015-11-28T00:48:43Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:49:00Z scottj: DynamicM`: Programming Pearls 2015-11-28T00:49:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T00:49:35Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:50:00Z phf: the design of design 2015-11-28T00:50:36Z DynamicM`: Thanks everyone, I'll look into them! 2015-11-28T00:54:22Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-28T00:54:41Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T00:55:51Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T00:55:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T00:58:21Z DynamicM`: programming pearls looks amazing and so does the design of design, if anyone knows of any other ones I would love to know :) 2015-11-28T00:59:23Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:01:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:03:49Z phoe_krk: hm... format question. 2015-11-28T01:04:16Z phoe_krk: Is it able for format to spit out a long string as a series of lines that are at most X characters long? 2015-11-28T01:04:23Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:04:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:04:51Z phoe_krk: Like, "qwertyuiopqwertyuiop" -> "qwert~%yuiop~%qwert~%yuiop" 2015-11-28T01:05:37Z Nilby joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:08:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:08:17Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T01:08:33Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:08:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:09:04Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: i think that is more a pretty printer thing. 2015-11-28T01:09:34Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: actually, not really. I want to be able to do that using format. 2015-11-28T01:09:43Z phoe_krk: I'll try to hack something up. 2015-11-28T01:10:01Z Bicyclidine: i mean, it is something the pretty printer is designed to do, not format. 2015-11-28T01:10:23Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:10:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:13:30Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T01:14:41Z phf: format can only iterate over lists 2015-11-28T01:14:58Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:15:43Z scottj: Can format look at the length of elements in future lines before deciding what width to use for an element in the first line? For example, http://dpaste.com/1TG23CQ Or do I have to manually find the max length in "a" column and pass that length to format as an arg? 2015-11-28T01:16:53Z peterhil joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:17:03Z sid_cypher: scottj: format has a conditional that uses integers, so you'd have to pass the (modified) length as an argument for that to work 2015-11-28T01:17:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:19:34Z sid_cypher: oh, ~A provides padding, too. 2015-11-28T01:20:01Z sid_cypher: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm 2015-11-28T01:20:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:20:21Z blubjr: scottj: you have to find it yourself 2015-11-28T01:20:54Z scottj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:21:36Z broken_c1ock quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-28T01:22:19Z sid_cypher: actually having read the example - yep, manually find and provide the length, no way around it. 2015-11-28T01:23:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:24:47Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:24:56Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:27:52Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T01:28:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:29:13Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:29:14Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T01:29:46Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-28T01:32:09Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-28T01:33:55Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:34:07Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:34:53Z blubjr: is this the neatest way to do what scottj wanted http://paste.lisp.org/display/161025 2015-11-28T01:37:23Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:39:23Z phoe_krk: oh wow. 2015-11-28T01:39:31Z phoe_krk: a program written in a functional style. 2015-11-28T01:39:54Z phoe_krk: that automatically calls a garbage collector every n steps of the main program. 2015-11-28T01:41:18Z phoe_krk: that's just <3 2015-11-28T01:41:35Z Guest24685 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:41:36Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: ping 2015-11-28T01:42:18Z p_l: phoe_krk: cheney on the mta approach can result in that with carefully setup stack size.. 2015-11-28T01:43:49Z sid_cypher: i think loop is not exacly functional style. i find it great that you can mix styles, though. 2015-11-28T01:43:52Z phoe_krk: p_l: please elaborate, I find the text you mention hard to understand 2015-11-28T01:44:25Z phoe_krk: sid_cypher: of course it's not, but I can easily do a tco instead. 2015-11-28T01:44:33Z p_l: phoe_krk: cheney on the mta is a specific style of GC, used for example by Chicken Scheme, which implements it by never, ever, returning from function 2015-11-28T01:44:56Z p_l: where function = C function that implements the Scheme function 2015-11-28T01:45:00Z phoe_krk: wow 2015-11-28T01:45:14Z p_l: every function ends with a continuation-passing-style call to the next function 2015-11-28T01:45:25Z p_l: the GC is triggered when the stack is exhausted 2015-11-28T01:46:01Z phoe_krk: that's... interesting 2015-11-28T01:46:10Z Bicyclidine: is this a joke about subways. 2015-11-28T01:47:00Z sid_cypher: like a fat person regularly having his liposuction done, lol. 2015-11-28T01:47:02Z p_l: Bicyclidine: it's a reference to a song that was a joke about subway 2015-11-28T01:47:22Z p_l: or included a joke about subway (specifically, boston MTA iirc) 2015-11-28T01:48:16Z sid_cypher: the image a big fat stack makes me sad somehow. 2015-11-28T01:50:57Z sid_cypher: it would be so much nicer if GC would accelerate its stack trimming when the stack size crosses half the maximum. 2015-11-28T01:51:20Z sid_cypher likes to visualize everything 2015-11-28T01:51:42Z p_l: chicken scheme was geared towards simple, not "run 500 GB heap enterprise multithreaded application server" 2015-11-28T01:52:06Z DynamicM` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T01:52:07Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-28T01:52:11Z sid_cypher: i understand :) still kinda sad. 2015-11-28T01:52:24Z p_l actually has a machine with ~123GB shared work heap and ~400GB of memory just for caching 2015-11-28T01:53:12Z sid_cypher: p_l: DDR5 memory? :) 2015-11-28T01:53:52Z p_l: DDR4 is the current stuff, but yes, DDR4 2015-11-28T01:54:21Z p_l: postgresql server with PCIE storage 2015-11-28T01:55:54Z sid_cypher: omg, i still remember not wanting to upgrade to DDR3 about two years ago, and there's new ram already. 2015-11-28T02:03:43Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:04:15Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:06:23Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:06:25Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:07:23Z zcr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:09:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:09:20Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:11:06Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:14:06Z user292 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:17:54Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:21:41Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:21:43Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: is that at work ? 2015-11-28T02:24:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:26:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:27:08Z p_l: yeah 2015-11-28T02:27:55Z p_l: normally I wouldn't ever expect to lay hands on new hardware beefed up like this, despite it being under 30k, but this time, the initiative to get sensible hardware came from japanese employee, so of course they found money ;) 2015-11-28T02:28:53Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:29:03Z phoe_krk: how does ECL compare to SBCL when it comes to memory footprint? 2015-11-28T02:29:25Z phoe_krk: I mostly think about situations where GC is called freuqently 2015-11-28T02:30:03Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:30:03Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T02:30:12Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:30:12Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T02:30:28Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:30:28Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T02:30:48Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:30:48Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T02:31:04Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:31:04Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T02:31:50Z rigsby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T02:36:59Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-11-28T02:37:43Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:42:40Z phoe_krk: hey, um 2015-11-28T02:42:46Z blubjr: hi 2015-11-28T02:42:52Z phoe_krk: hey blubjr 2015-11-28T02:43:03Z phoe_krk: let's assume that I write loop1 using loop and loop2 using tail-recursion 2015-11-28T02:43:17Z phoe_krk: and that I modify both in Emacs and go C-c C-c on both of them. 2015-11-28T02:43:53Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T02:44:13Z phoe_krk: will either loop change? 2015-11-28T02:45:05Z Bicyclidine: uh, you just said you modified them, so yes? i think you're asking this in a hard to understand way. 2015-11-28T02:48:23Z |3b|`: running code won't change if you recompile the function containing that code, regardless of the implementation of that code 2015-11-28T02:48:27Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2015-11-28T02:48:40Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:49:12Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:49:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-28T02:49:28Z |3b|: (and that applies to code further up the stack as well, if you don't consider that 'running' while it is calling something else) 2015-11-28T02:50:01Z |3b|: if a loop calls a function every iteration, and you recompile that function, the new definition will (probably) be seen by the call in the next iteration 2015-11-28T02:50:02Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:50:04Z phadthai: indeed, unless they use funcall on the symbol 2015-11-28T02:50:43Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:51:03Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-28T02:52:08Z |3b|: so in the specific case, the "tail recursion" loop may or may not see the changes, since it is a function call, but it is always a function call within a "compilation unit" so the compiler is allowed to compile it specially in a way that would prevent it from seeing the modifications 2015-11-28T02:52:20Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T02:53:18Z |3b|: (unless you declare it NOTINLINE, but presumably you wouldn't since describing it as a tail recursive loop suggests you expect TCE (but note that TCE isn't required to be supported in CL)) 2015-11-28T02:54:09Z phadthai: you could also recompile the whole module/file, assuming that some care was taken to make the image safe to that (using for instance defvar and defparameter properly etc) 2015-11-28T02:54:32Z phadthai: beach: hello 2015-11-28T02:55:59Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-28T03:01:24Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T03:01:47Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:01:47Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T03:02:03Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:02:03Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T03:02:12Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:02:12Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T03:02:25Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:02:25Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T03:10:23Z FCL joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:10:39Z FCL: Hi. 2015-11-28T03:11:41Z Bicyclidine: yo yo 2015-11-28T03:12:26Z FCL: Would someone mind to explain what on Earth is happening here? i.imgur.com/JdkJ0dM.png 2015-11-28T03:12:59Z FCL: http://i.imgur.com/JdkJ0dM.png 2015-11-28T03:13:11Z Bicyclidine: sort is destructive. 2015-11-28T03:13:30Z Bicyclidine: it returns a value of the same length but is allowed to screw up the argument it receives as it works. 2015-11-28T03:13:39Z FCL: The HyperSpec says so, yes, but does "destructive" mean literally dropping elements? 2015-11-28T03:14:03Z Bicyclidine: Sure. It's taking cdrs, likely. 2015-11-28T03:14:25Z beach: FCL: With destructive operations, always do (setf bla (operation bla...)) 2015-11-28T03:15:28Z beach: FCL: The return value is important, and you should no longer use the value passed as an argument. 2015-11-28T03:15:35Z FCL: beach: But even this wouldn't help in this situation, because sort returns a list amputated of perfectly valid elements. 2015-11-28T03:15:41Z Bicyclidine: no 2015-11-28T03:15:45Z Bicyclidine: the return value has the same length 2015-11-28T03:15:51Z Bicyclidine: as you can see visually 2015-11-28T03:16:04Z Bicyclidine: It's just the value in *empty-cells* that's fucked up 2015-11-28T03:16:25Z FCL: Oh. 2015-11-28T03:16:41Z FCL: Gonna try it out. Thank you both. 2015-11-28T03:16:45Z beach: FCL: You are not using the return value of SORT, and you are using the value passed as an argument, exactly as I told you that you should not do. 2015-11-28T03:18:25Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T03:21:32Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T03:22:27Z phf: FCL: destructive operations on list arbitrarily modify cdr values of cons cells in the list, reusing some, dropping others for the final result. what you get in the original list are essentially scrapings. degenerate case of that is something like (let ((a '(1 2 3))) (nreverse a) a) which in the most straightforward implementation of algo will leave you with '(1) since the cells were modified to point to their parents, and the cell that 2015-11-28T03:22:27Z phf: a points to is now the last one, with cdr being nil, where's the cell where 2 is now points at (1), etc. 2015-11-28T03:22:47Z Guest24685 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-11-28T03:22:57Z phoe_krk: FCL: you want the return value of sort, not the argument that's left afterwards. the argument essentially containts not what you want anymore, just like after any destructive operation. 2015-11-28T03:23:04Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:23:52Z phoe_krk: you could always go (setf *empty-cells* (sort *empty-cells)) if you want that. 2015-11-28T03:24:02Z phoe_krk: s/cells/cells*/ 2015-11-28T03:24:07Z phoe_krk: anyways, night. 2015-11-28T03:25:14Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:27:01Z FCL: Yes, that is what beach suggested, and that nailed it. Thanks again. 2015-11-28T03:29:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T03:33:35Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T03:35:27Z FCL quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T03:36:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:37:32Z DynamicMetaFlow joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:42:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T03:44:56Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T03:52:55Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T03:57:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T03:57:05Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:57:37Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T03:58:26Z Bahman quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T04:01:15Z DynamicM` joined #lisp 2015-11-28T04:01:57Z DynamicMetaFlow quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T04:05:17Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-28T04:05:29Z DynamicM` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T04:08:26Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T04:11:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 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Throw them away. 2015-11-28T11:49:26Z pjb: Shinmera: #lispcafe, is about anything but CL. If you were to discuss CL on #lispcafe you'd be redirected to #lisp as surely as if you talked of Russia in #lisp you'd be redirected to #lispcafe. 2015-11-28T11:50:17Z pjb: Shinmera: it's such a simple concept, why don't you understand it? CL -> #lisp, scheme -> #scheme, other lisp -> ##lisp, you're a lisper, but talk about anything not lisp -> #lispcafe 2015-11-28T11:50:17Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T11:51:06Z Shinmera: pjb: Lispcafe was made by #lisp-ers so it's still more in favour towards Common Lisp than other lisps, which is what the topic was about you idiot. 2015-11-28T11:51:17Z pjb: Shinmera: if you don't know, why don't you just redirect the newbies to http://cliki.net/IRC ? 2015-11-28T11:51:33Z pjb: Shinmera: I was the idiot who created #lispcafe! 2015-11-28T11:51:39Z Shinmera: pjb: If you don't know how to actually understand context, why are you even in a chatroom. 2015-11-28T11:53:05Z beach must remember not to introduce Shinmera and pjb to each other in Kraków. 2015-11-28T11:53:58Z Shinmera: beach: I'm just tired to be berated about things I already knew hours after they happened just because he chooses to ignore the context of what they were said in. 2015-11-28T11:53:58Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T11:54:31Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T11:54:51Z pjb: [nickname] was clearly looking for a lisp solution of his problem and see how he was treated! 2015-11-28T11:55:12Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T11:55:59Z TRG-42 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T11:58:47Z pjb: Shinmera: learn something: when you have to deal with an insufferable language, you design a sexp-based syntax for it, a reader to parse that language into those sexps, and a writer to convert those sexps into that language. Then you can write programs in that language using sexps, and even use CL to define macros to generate those sexps! this has been done an innumerable number of times, with things like linj, liskell, etc. 2015-11-28T11:59:10Z pjb: Shinmera: this is what you should have told to [nickname] instead of that dumb "How is this lisp related?". 2015-11-28T11:59:18Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T11:59:20Z Shinmera: pjb: Cool story bro 2015-11-28T11:59:34Z pjb: Right, stay an idiot… 2015-11-28T12:00:24Z Shinmera: Yeah, I should apologise for trying to find out more about the situation in order to be able to perhaps answer it more adequately, rather than just spewing something out from the get go. 2015-11-28T12:00:24Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T12:00:49Z Shinmera: I should just berate people like you do! Because that's a productive way to go about things indeed. 2015-11-28T12:00:52Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:01:33Z pjb: phoe_krk: format has no standard specifier to take substrings (You could take sublists). But you can write your own format specifier function and use it with ~/ 2015-11-28T12:01:39Z beach is not amused by this discussion. 2015-11-28T12:01:42Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-28T12:03:28Z antoszka: 12:53:05 * beach must remember not to introduce Shinmera and pjb to each other in Kraków. 2015-11-28T12:03:31Z antoszka: 12:53:05 * beach must remember not to introduce Shinmera and pjb to each other in Kraków. 2015-11-28T12:03:34Z antoszka: sorry about the double click 2015-11-28T12:03:36Z antoszka: my MMB is crazy 2015-11-28T12:03:48Z antoszka: anway, I think the two have already met previously. 2015-11-28T12:03:48Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T12:03:49Z antoszka: :/ 2015-11-28T12:04:07Z pjb: minion: memo for scottj: format has no standard specifier to automatically compute properties of objects to take into account in format specifiers, but you can do that writing your own format specifier function and use it with ~/ 2015-11-28T12:04:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell scottj when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-28T12:05:49Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:07:14Z agumonkey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T12:07:17Z pjb: minion: memo for scottj: see for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161066 2015-11-28T12:07:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell scottj when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-28T12:07:26Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:07:28Z pjb: phoe_krk: see for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161066 2015-11-28T12:07:43Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:07:49Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:08:47Z TRG-42 left #lisp 2015-11-28T12:20:15Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-28T12:22:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:24:20Z sigjuice quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-28T12:25:14Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T12:25:37Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:26:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T12:29:44Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:32:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:32:48Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2015-11-28T12:36:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T12:38:04Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:38:46Z cadadar1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T12:38:46Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T12:39:34Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:46:55Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:47:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:47:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:50:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T12:50:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:50:36Z gniourf quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-11-28T12:51:45Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:53:10Z gniourf quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-28T12:55:14Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-28T12:57:50Z ukari_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:06:30Z oceanpollen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T13:06:46Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:07:28Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:07:30Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:11:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:13:34Z Guest84303 is now known as xristos 2015-11-28T13:13:39Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T13:13:39Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:26:33Z sid_cypher: ooh, a low upto moderate amount of drama happened. Why Kraków? 2015-11-28T13:26:49Z Shinmera: Because that's where ELS'15 is happening. 2015-11-28T13:26:53Z Shinmera: Err '16 2015-11-28T13:26:57Z sid_cypher: Shinmera: cool, thanks 2015-11-28T13:28:41Z sid_cypher: hmm, maybe i'll go next time in 2017 2015-11-28T13:28:50Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:29:05Z Shinmera: Registration hasn't even opened yet for '16, so there's still plenty of time to consider it. 2015-11-28T13:31:30Z sid_cypher: won't have enough free space in my head for the next three to six months, unfortunately. 2015-11-28T13:31:40Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T13:32:49Z sid_cypher almost got out of 32c3, but uni friends insisted. 2015-11-28T13:32:53Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:33:55Z sid_cypher: that was such a bad "first world problems"-style joke 2015-11-28T13:37:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:38:26Z kami left #lisp 2015-11-28T13:39:08Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:39:49Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:43:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:43:19Z sid_cypher: Fare: Note, however, that when parametrizing programming systems, it is important to be able to express full abstraction, whereby which programs are prevented from examining the data being abstracted over. 2015-11-28T13:43:55Z sid_cypher: Fare: parameterizing, maybe? and what does that "whereby which" mean? 2015-11-28T13:44:50Z sid_cypher: oh, parametrization allows both spellings 2015-11-28T13:47:05Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T13:47:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:51:23Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T13:53:50Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T13:54:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:55:52Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:56:50Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T13:57:54Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:58:18Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-28T13:59:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: thanks 2015-11-28T14:04:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T14:06:52Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T14:07:09Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:11:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T14:12:04Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:15:07Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-28T14:18:06Z farhaven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T14:18:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:22:30Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:22:41Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T14:23:12Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:24:15Z farhaven_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:25:33Z farhaven_ is now known as farhaven 2015-11-28T14:27:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:28:29Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T14:28:44Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-28T14:29:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:29:35Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:31:00Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:31:42Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:31:55Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T14:33:38Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:34:17Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:36:24Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:38:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T14:45:17Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-28T14:45:32Z Fare: beach: email 2015-11-28T14:48:05Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T14:49:16Z fu7mu4 quit 2015-11-28T14:55:51Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-28T14:57:15Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:00:04Z Dynamicmetaflow joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:03:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:04:06Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:04:25Z oceanpollen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:04:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:05:07Z opus joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:05:55Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:06:18Z ejbs: Can I check the curr max heap size in SBCL via some function at the REPL? 2015-11-28T15:07:30Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:07:47Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:07:50Z Shinmera: ejbs: SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE 2015-11-28T15:08:07Z Shinmera: ejbs: And SB-KERNEL:DYNAMIC-USAGE for how much is currently used. 2015-11-28T15:08:21Z ejbs: Cool, thank you 2015-11-28T15:10:11Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:12:14Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:13:17Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:16:18Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:16:47Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:17:30Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:17:35Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:20:30Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:22:40Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:23:39Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:24:12Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:24:12Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T15:24:17Z shookees_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:24:44Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:25:13Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: What was the system you couldn't use Staple for? Hive-task? 2015-11-28T15:25:18Z paulius__ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:25:33Z shookees_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:25:33Z paulius__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:25:33Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:27:03Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:27:11Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T15:27:34Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:27:48Z shookees quit (K-Lined) 2015-11-28T15:31:52Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T15:32:23Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yep. 2015-11-28T15:33:47Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:34:23Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:35:16Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:35:53Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I can't reproduce here. 2015-11-28T15:36:04Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: (staple:generate :hive-task :if-exists :supersede) works just fine. 2015-11-28T15:36:07Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T15:36:28Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:37:46Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: there's a trace: http://paste.lisp.org/display/160654 2015-11-28T15:38:18Z Shinmera: Yeah, well, I can't really do much if I can't reproduce it on latest sources. 2015-11-28T15:38:29Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:38:56Z Shinmera: It looks like it's an error in Plump or SBCL. 2015-11-28T15:39:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:39:13Z Shinmera: So maybe try pulling Plump from git first. 2015-11-28T15:40:02Z hitecnologys: Let's try that. 2015-11-28T15:41:41Z hitecnologys: Nope, same effect. 2015-11-28T15:41:46Z oceanpollen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:43:40Z Shinmera: I guess updating SBCL would be my next guess then. 2015-11-28T15:44:33Z hitecnologys: It's already 1.3.0. 2015-11-28T15:44:37Z Shinmera: Hrm. 2015-11-28T15:44:55Z atgreen__ is now known as atgreen 2015-11-28T15:45:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T15:45:16Z Shinmera: I really don't know-- it doesn't make any sense to me. 2015-11-28T15:45:28Z 17SAD5QB0 is now known as mtl_ 2015-11-28T15:46:18Z hitecnologys: Doesn't make sense to me either. I'm currently trying to check whether I have outdated versions of any libraries staple might depend on in my load path. 2015-11-28T15:47:56Z hitecnologys: Nope, doesn't seem that I have outdated libraries. 2015-11-28T15:48:03Z hitecnologys: I have no idea why it fails… 2015-11-28T15:50:23Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T15:51:45Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-28T16:05:26Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-28T16:07:13Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:07:18Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'll try building it on another machine tomorrow because today I'm too tired to do anything but playing games and sleeping. I'll report back when it's done. 2015-11-28T16:07:26Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:07:42Z Shinmera: Alright. Thanks for bearing with me. 2015-11-28T16:08:16Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:08:26Z hitecnologys: Thanks for bearing with *me*. ;) 2015-11-28T16:11:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:13:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:13:10Z circ-user-jWKjL joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:13:40Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:15:35Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:18:56Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:19:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:20:45Z sakalli_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:21:22Z circ-user-jWKjL quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:22:35Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:23:17Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:24:22Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:25:05Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:26:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:26:56Z sid_cypher quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-28T16:28:11Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:28:11Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:28:30Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:28:50Z shookees quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T16:29:02Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:29:13Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:29:39Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:30:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:30:10Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:30:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:30:58Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:33:28Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:33:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:33:40Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:34:49Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:35:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:35:21Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:35:53Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:36:13Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:36:13Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:36:24Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:36:32Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:36:42Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:36:50Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:38:06Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:38:26Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:38:50Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:39:03Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:39:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:40:17Z Bugboy1028 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:40:17Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T16:41:55Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:43:14Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:43:47Z Mandus quit (Quit: Changing server) 2015-11-28T16:44:18Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:44:22Z Bugboy1028 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:44:38Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:44:47Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:44:50Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:45:36Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:45:37Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:45:58Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:46:10Z DeadTrickster: pjb, Shinmera the fight is over already& 2015-11-28T16:46:11Z DeadTrickster: ? 2015-11-28T16:46:21Z Shinmera: It's been half a day since then. 2015-11-28T16:46:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:46:33Z Octophore` is now known as Octophore 2015-11-28T16:46:39Z DeadTrickster: I was sleeping, sorry 2015-11-28T16:46:52Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:47:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:47:06Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T16:47:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:48:10Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:48:26Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:48:28Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T16:48:42Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:49:06Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T16:52:43Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:54:12Z Mandus joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:54:20Z DeadTrickster: here is my question, hope it is lisp related enough: given the following hierarchy t->object->triangle and method print specialized for all tree classes can I force for object of class triangle execution of print specialized on just object? or in other words: print(instance) ? 2015-11-28T16:54:48Z DeadTrickster: s/tree/three 2015-11-28T16:54:59Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-11-28T16:55:14Z Shinmera: Not to my knowledge. 2015-11-28T16:56:12Z mtl_: not without temporarily removing the most specific method, which sounds like a nasty thing to do 2015-11-28T16:56:34Z DeadTrickster: sadly not to my too which in turn breaks my cl-is-superset view 2015-11-28T16:56:52Z Shinmera: The other "solution" would be a special variable and a test in the print-object method for triangle that tests for it. 2015-11-28T16:57:14Z DeadTrickster: for static typing languages it is easy - just select appropriate implementation at compile time 2015-11-28T16:57:42Z Shinmera: ? dispatch is done at runtime. 2015-11-28T16:57:59Z mtl_: yeah you could maybe have something like a keyword argument that causes the most specific method to do call-next-method immediately 2015-11-28T16:57:59Z Shinmera: Even in Java and so forth you can't do what you want to do. 2015-11-28T16:58:22Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, are you sure? 2015-11-28T16:58:24Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-11-28T16:58:36Z Shinmera: Even if you cast it down, the actual object's method is still called. 2015-11-28T16:58:41Z Shinmera: *cast it up 2015-11-28T16:58:58Z Shinmera: Anything else would be ridiculously broken behaviour! 2015-11-28T17:01:29Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:01:33Z DeadTrickster: ok maybe I'm talking about dot net method hiding here 2015-11-28T17:02:09Z Shinmera: What you could try doing is grab the actual method function and call it directly. I don't know how much that is going to burn though. 2015-11-28T17:02:31Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:03:44Z Bicyclidine: the actual method has a bunch of crap for dealing with c-n-m and stuff, you can't call it. you might be able to construct the effective method corresponding to a given class, or something... but it would be way easier to do the &key/special thing, or failing that, some fancy method combo. 2015-11-28T17:04:36Z DeadTrickster: basically what it can: A a = new B(); a.method() will invoke A version of method 2015-11-28T17:05:24Z Shinmera: That doesn't sound right to me. 2015-11-28T17:06:16Z DeadTrickster: well to avoid warning you must use 'new' keyword when declaring method for B 2015-11-28T17:06:37Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:07:19Z Bicyclidine: it's pretty amazing how MOP is this huge, metacircular, experimental definition, and i still find it less confusing than the million keywords in C# et al 2015-11-28T17:07:48Z DeadTrickster: cool, but how to implement this then? 2015-11-28T17:08:13Z lucasb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:08:37Z Bicyclidine: the thing mtl_ suggested would be most obvious 2015-11-28T17:09:03Z Shinmera: You can't add a keyword argument to print-object though. 2015-11-28T17:09:05Z mtl_: except print-object has no &key arguments iirc 2015-11-28T17:09:06Z DeadTrickster: I wouldn't do this 2015-11-28T17:09:09Z DeadTrickster: it will broke cache 2015-11-28T17:09:13Z DeadTrickster: break 2015-11-28T17:09:56Z DeadTrickster: the problem actualy is this A a = new B - compiler knows declared type and actual 2015-11-28T17:10:05Z DeadTrickster: in CL this is not possible 2015-11-28T17:10:15Z Bicyclidine: yes, so you don't need to keep explaining it. 2015-11-28T17:10:17Z DeadTrickster: actually I'm thinking about Fare lil 2015-11-28T17:11:03Z Bicyclidine: you could use a special instead of a &key. it wouldn't affect CLOS caching since the same methods are called with or without the special. 2015-11-28T17:11:04Z DeadTrickster: explicitly passing interface might help 2015-11-28T17:11:25Z Shinmera: In Java what you're describing is very clearly (and intuitively) not the case. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/DV# 2015-11-28T17:11:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:14:06Z GraveLlama joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:14:14Z GraveLlama left #lisp 2015-11-28T17:15:15Z mtl_: DeadTrickster: http://pastie.org/10586713 this is the only way I can think of(at least in the case of print-object) 2015-11-28T17:17:06Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:20:13Z DeadTrickster: mtl_, well it's like replacing generics with cases) 2015-11-28T17:20:28Z liqu0rice joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:20:30Z mtl_: DeadTrickster: yeah it ain't pretty 2015-11-28T17:20:42Z mtl_: but I do think it's an odd thing to want to do in the first place 2015-11-28T17:20:48Z liqu0rice quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T17:20:54Z DeadTrickster: I'm a pervert yeah 2015-11-28T17:21:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T17:22:31Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:22:31Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T17:22:46Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:22:55Z sweater is now known as Guest67130 2015-11-28T17:25:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:26:24Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:27:46Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:28:46Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:28:55Z GraveLlama joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:29:11Z GraveLlama: Does lisp support inline assembler? 2015-11-28T17:29:44Z White_Flame: not standard, but each implementation generally can expose however its compiler puts together its bits 2015-11-28T17:29:46Z Shinmera: The standard says absolutely nothing about assembly, but your implementation might support a form of that. 2015-11-28T17:29:52Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T17:29:56Z GraveLlama: I am using sbcl 2015-11-28T17:30:02Z Shinmera: See http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ 2015-11-28T17:34:36Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:35:43Z pjb: DeadTrickster: just call-next-method. 2015-11-28T17:35:50Z abaugher quit (Quit: "Gone fishin'") 2015-11-28T17:35:53Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:37:02Z arnaudga quit (Quit: Quitte) 2015-11-28T17:38:45Z Nilby joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:39:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T17:39:37Z pjb: DeadTrickster: (shadow 't) (defclass t () ()) (defclass object (t) ()) (defclass triangle (object) ()) (defmethod print-object ((self t) stream) (print-unreadable-object (self stream :identity cl:t :type cl:t) (prin1 '(a t) stream))) (defmethod print-object ((self object) stream) (print-unreadable-object (self stream :identity cl:t :type cl:t) (prin1 '(an object) stream) (call-next-method))) (defmethod print-object ((self triangle) 2015-11-28T17:39:37Z pjb: stream) (call-next-method)) (print (make-instance 'triangle)) #| # #x302004BFEA3D> |# 2015-11-28T17:40:03Z sid_cypher joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:40:54Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:41:09Z pjb: DeadTrickster: also, notice how calling call-next-method in print-object is rather inconvenient: for the methods of print-object, in general, you don't want to call-next-method; instead use another generic function, or call another generic function from print-object. 2015-11-28T17:41:45Z pjb: (not counting that you cannot define a print-object method on CL:T). 2015-11-28T17:41:52Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:43:25Z pjb: DeadTrickster: notice, that you could find "a" method corresponding to [super aMessage] vs. [self aMessage], but it is more difficult in general, because of multiple inheritance, and the various method combinations possible. 2015-11-28T17:44:20Z pjb: or [super.super aMessage], etc. 2015-11-28T17:44:27Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T17:44:50Z Guest67130 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:45:30Z Dynamicmetaflow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:46:56Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:47:26Z dim: what would you use for a fast queueing mechanism, or another IPC mechanism allowing to share data between running threads in a way comparable/similar to a unix pipe? 2015-11-28T17:48:41Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:49:35Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:51:41Z sid_cypher: a pipelining IPC library, sound too useful to exist. 2015-11-28T17:51:48Z sid_cypher: *sounds 2015-11-28T17:53:52Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-28T17:54:46Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T17:59:16Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:03:33Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:04:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:08:46Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:19:41Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-28T18:23:33Z DeadTrickster: pjb, 2015-11-28T18:23:54Z DeadTrickster: could you create a paste? 2015-11-28T18:24:26Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:24:35Z pjb: Well the question is what do you want to achieve? 2015-11-28T18:25:09Z pjb: dim: I would use com.informatimago.clext.pipe of course, but I'm not afraid of AGPL3. 2015-11-28T18:25:29Z DeadTrickster: I think simplified version of lisp-interface-library 2015-11-28T18:25:45Z DeadTrickster: where I pass interface alongside the object 2015-11-28T18:26:28Z lnostdal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T18:26:30Z DeadTrickster: also I want to omit explicit interface when it can be inferred from object class 2015-11-28T18:26:33Z DeadTrickster: yeah 2015-11-28T18:26:59Z DeadTrickster: so it will be like (print-object triangle) 2015-11-28T18:27:06Z DeadTrickster: or if I actually want to print triangle 2015-11-28T18:27:13Z pjb: Fail to see entirely how it's relevant. Anyways, liskov substitution principle should prevent you to skip methods. 2015-11-28T18:27:15Z DeadTrickster: (print-object triangle) 2015-11-28T18:28:00Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:29:05Z pjb: interfaces are not restricted to superclasses. If you have a subclass of a class implementing an interface, then this subclass implements this interface too. 2015-11-28T18:29:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:29:46Z DeadTrickster: sure 2015-11-28T18:30:21Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:30:28Z DeadTrickster: I just want lispy C# hidden methods (simplest analogy) 2015-11-28T18:30:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:31:15Z DeadTrickster: not definition maybe but how it feels when you can 'cast' to super class and invoke its version of the method 2015-11-28T18:31:50Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T18:34:11Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:34:38Z Bicyclidine: you could do the special variable thing and define a helper. (defun print-weird (pretend object stream) (let ((*whatever-it-was-called* pretend)) (real-print-object object stream)) 2015-11-28T18:36:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:36:41Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T18:36:42Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:37:15Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:39:52Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:40:00Z nugnuts quit (Quit: peace out) 2015-11-28T18:40:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:40:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:43:25Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-28T18:44:10Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:44:48Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T18:48:03Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:49:06Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:50:10Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T18:51:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:53:12Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:53:26Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:55:52Z GraveLlama quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T18:56:15Z GraveLlama joined #lisp 2015-11-28T18:58:09Z hiroakip quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-11-28T18:59:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:01:25Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:02:04Z dim: pjb: it's not about being afraid, it's about being able to choose the licence of my own software... for obvious (to me) reasons pgloader is licenced under "The PostgreSQL Licence", I want no other one. 2015-11-28T19:02:38Z pjb: DeadTrickster: really, I don't understand why you don't want to use call-next-method. This is what it is for. 2015-11-28T19:03:21Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:06:23Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:06:32Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T19:06:53Z DeadTrickster: pjb, because I need call-next-method occasionally 2015-11-28T19:07:03Z DeadTrickster: and was looking for generic solution 2015-11-28T19:07:32Z pjb: Yeah. Me too, occasionally I need [super aMessage]… 2015-11-28T19:11:14Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:14:44Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T19:15:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:15:42Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:15:43Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T19:15:43Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:16:26Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-28T19:17:02Z lucasb left #lisp 2015-11-28T19:22:04Z cyraxjoe_ is now known as cyraxjoe 2015-11-28T19:24:20Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:24:20Z user292 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T19:24:30Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:24:30Z user292 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T19:24:40Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:24:40Z user292 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T19:25:56Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:25:56Z user292 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T19:25:56Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:27:45Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: left right) 2015-11-28T19:28:06Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:30:16Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:30:51Z attila_lendvai: so, write-string ignores the pretty printer, notably indentation. but then how do I write a "constant string" into the pretty stream without the quotes? 2015-11-28T19:32:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:33:55Z dim: ~a 2015-11-28T19:34:19Z attila_lendvai: bah, slow me... thanks! 2015-11-28T19:36:02Z adam789654123 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:37:24Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:38:50Z Fare: OK, second draft for ch. 6 at https://github.com/Ngnghm/ngnghm.github.io/blob/master/_src/posts/8000-00-06-chapter-6.md 2015-11-28T19:39:45Z Fare: attila: print vs write? 2015-11-28T19:40:49Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T19:40:59Z attila_lendvai: I need the pretty printer (dealing with sbcl's trace output), but not the quotes. unfortunately my problem is deeper: if I use a string-output-stream, then how on earth do I bring over the indentation? probably I need to leave it as is... 2015-11-28T19:41:06Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T19:41:15Z attila_lendvai: but I wanted to get rid of ensure-printable-object which was only used here 2015-11-28T19:41:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:42:09Z Fare: your answer might not be the CL pretty printer :-( 2015-11-28T19:42:43Z peterhil_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:42:49Z attila_lendvai reads fare's chapter to get some fresh air 2015-11-28T19:43:10Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T19:43:56Z broken_clock quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-28T19:44:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:45:48Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:47:49Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:47:50Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T19:47:50Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T19:48:36Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T19:49:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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true error can crash it and bash will restart it after few seconds.... 2015-11-28T20:06:57Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:07:06Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:07:24Z puchacz: I'd rather have it die and restarted rather than consume resources hanging on debugger 2015-11-28T20:07:36Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:07:50Z puchacz: so - can I have debugger only for REPL? 2015-11-28T20:07:52Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:08:04Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:08:26Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:08:58Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:09:27Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:09:53Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:10:17Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:10:57Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:11:06Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T20:11:21Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:12:04Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:12:08Z puchacz: you understand what I would like, dont you? my typos caught when I tinker 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attila_lendvai: puchacz: see disable-debugger here: http://hub.darcs.net/hu.dwim/hu.dwim.util/browse/source/error-handling.lisp and the other error-handling.lisp 2015-11-28T20:30:04Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:30:05Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:30:16Z puchacz: attila_lendvai: thanks 2015-11-28T20:30:31Z attila_lendvai: puchacz: and error-handling+swank.lisp under integration/ 2015-11-28T20:31:08Z puchacz: attila_lendvai: ok 2015-11-28T20:31:16Z attila_lendvai: puchacz: or rather maybe-invoke-debugger, which conditionally uses that if available 2015-11-28T20:31:52Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:32:02Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:32:06Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T20:32:31Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:32:44Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T20:33:14Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:33:47Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T20:34:17Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T20:34:42Z user29 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with a Breadth-First-Traversal abstract enough to be used on any object (CLOS/struct/cons/whatever)? 2015-11-28T21:21:59Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:22:52Z sid_cypher: it could take the root thing and functions that operate on such things, like get-next-child and get-value 2015-11-28T21:23:54Z arpunk1 quit (K-Lined) 2015-11-28T21:24:15Z arpunk1 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:24:52Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T21:26:01Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T21:26:34Z jasom: clhs ~_ 2015-11-28T21:26:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cea.htm 2015-11-28T21:26:54Z jasom: attila_lendvai: ^^ specbot knows the answer 2015-11-28T21:28:22Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:28:23Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-28T21:28:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:28:33Z attila_lendvai: jasom: good to know, thanks! 2015-11-28T21:28:36Z sid_cypher: google only gives me toy code and college assignments, quickdocs and cliki give nothing useful :( 2015-11-28T21:29:00Z sid_cypher: another coin in a pigful of lisp projects to do somewhen 2015-11-28T21:29:11Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:29:13Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:29:25Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:30:24Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:32:26Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:33:13Z Fare: sid_cypher, not that hard to write 2015-11-28T21:33:18Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:33:20Z rme joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:33:24Z Fare: sid_cypher, take a look at uiop/filesystem 2015-11-28T21:33:32Z sid_cypher: Fare: i know, already writing for my special case. 2015-11-28T21:33:37Z Fare: collect-sub*directories is almost it 2015-11-28T21:33:50Z Fare: oh wait, breadthfirst 2015-11-28T21:34:09Z Fare: then, look at poiu, its queue mechanism is breadth first 2015-11-28T21:34:36Z sid_cypher: Fare: the reason I ask: It's easier to write your own that to disentangle the pure algorithm from someone else's code. 2015-11-28T21:35:28Z sid_cypher: it's just "fill the queue of objects depth level by depth level" 2015-11-28T21:35:52Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:36:10Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:36:51Z sid_cypher: but having to write it again and again would be annoying, so I'd make a lib with algorithms but no data types. 2015-11-28T21:37:46Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:38:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:43:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:45:00Z Fleurety quit (K-Lined) 2015-11-28T21:46:46Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T21:47:10Z DeadTrickster: only today i finally figured out what without-interrupts means) 2015-11-28T21:51:36Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:53:33Z hardenedapple quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T21:53:34Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-28T21:53:57Z josteink joined #lisp 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I am beginning to think it's a performance drag on my use case in pgloader :/ 2015-11-28T22:47:21Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T22:47:27Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:50:07Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:50:14Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:51:40Z sid_cypher: i just used jpl-queues, it's light enough and there seem to be thread-safe queue types 2015-11-28T22:52:01Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:52:08Z user292 joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:52:10Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T22:52:31Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T22:53:08Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:54:36Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T22:54:54Z sid_cypher: oh, that lparallel.queue is specifically for worker thread jobs or something 2015-11-28T22:55:57Z dim: yeah 2015-11-28T22:56:28Z dim: I use it so that I can have a reader thread and a writer thread, exchanging batches of data as they run 2015-11-28T22:57:20Z dim: I'm now trying to have N workers read from the same queue, and apparently that's a killer, I guess lock contention, but with 4 workers... 2015-11-28T22:57:42Z dim: or maybe the reader is too slow for N workers anyway 2015-11-28T22:57:43Z sid_cypher: dim: that's why you were asking for pipelining IPC earlier :) 2015-11-28T22:57:59Z dim: yeah 2015-11-28T23:01:22Z sid_cypher: N workers popping the same queue is not a pipe already, though, kind of a fork. 2015-11-28T23:01:46Z dim: ok with a faster reader it's much better 2015-11-28T23:05:14Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:06:10Z kyfho: why use queues 2015-11-28T23:06:14Z kyfho: anywya? 2015-11-28T23:10:13Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-28T23:12:17Z PuercoPop: dim: The author seems to prefer email, (is active in mailing lists), consider writing him an email 2015-11-28T23:13:00Z dim: I did at previous times when lost, he's been very helpful 2015-11-28T23:13:16Z dim: will do it again when I have researched more what's happening 2015-11-28T23:13:26Z dim: kyfho: to exchange data when they are ready 2015-11-28T23:13:33Z dim: kyfho: how would you do it? 2015-11-28T23:15:02Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-28T23:15:33Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:15:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:17:28Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T23:20:29Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:21:56Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T23:22:30Z user292 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:25:50Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:26:05Z knicklux_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:26:34Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:29:04Z knicklux_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:29:23Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-28T23:29:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:30:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:32:33Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T23:32:33Z knicklux_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-28T23:33:01Z sjohnson joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:33:48Z shum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-28T23:34:47Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:34:57Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-28T23:35:43Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T23:36:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:40:22Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-28T23:40:24Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:41:21Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:42:27Z zettai joined #lisp 2015-11-28T23:43:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-11-28T23:44:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:50:58Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-28T23:55:14Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:01:47Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-29T00:02:45Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-29T00:04:43Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:06:50Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:11:14Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:12:51Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:12:51Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:13:12Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:13:13Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:13:21Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:13:21Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:13:46Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:13:47Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:13:55Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:13:55Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:13:56Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-29T00:14:57Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:25Z dsevilla joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z mtl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z o`connor joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z opcode joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:17:36Z phf joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:19:04Z xristos is now known as Guest89256 2015-11-29T00:25:48Z rigsby joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:30:22Z rigsby quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T00:31:50Z Guest59395 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-29T00:35:30Z LucyParsons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:36:00Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:36:20Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:36:22Z Guest89256 is now known as xristos 2015-11-29T00:36:26Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T00:36:26Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:37:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:38:19Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T00:38:49Z PuercoPop: pjb: I'm tracing parse-symbol-token through the test case of your reader to figure out what it expects as the input, what is the #array with numbers in the cdr of the list passed as token? 2015-11-29T00:41:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:42:46Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:43:10Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:43:36Z PuercoPop: btw, you consider adding a test case for symbols named with double colon and moving the test-op to the asdf system of reader so that one can call asdf:test-system without loading the test system. I'll try to submit patches tomorrow or the next day If I find the time. 2015-11-29T00:45:11Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:45:50Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:46:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T00:46:32Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:47:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:49:59Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:55:09Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T00:55:32Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T00:55:57Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-29T01:00:48Z axion: is there a format directive to zero-pad a number? 2015-11-29T01:02:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:06:17Z pjb: Yes. 2015-11-29T01:07:14Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:08:19Z pjb: PuercoPop: It's documented in the package documentation. (documentation (find-package "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-READER.READER") t) 2015-11-29T01:08:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:08:38Z pjb: they are constituent-traits. 2015-11-29T01:09:07Z pjb: cf. make-token 2015-11-29T01:09:43Z pjb: for symbols, what you want to lookup is +ct-package-marker+ 2015-11-29T01:10:27Z l04m33_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:10:46Z pjb: axion: (format nil "~8,'0B" 42) #| --> "00101010" |# 2015-11-29T01:11:32Z pjb: axion: (format nil "~8,,,'0A" 42) #| --> "42000000" |# 2015-11-29T01:12:18Z Xach: axion: when I want a number to be 2 characters wide and with leading zeroes, I use (format t "~2,'0D" number) 2015-11-29T01:12:45Z pjb: Which of course, doesn't work with negative numbers :-) 2015-11-29T01:12:52Z pjb: (none works) 2015-11-29T01:13:09Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T01:13:54Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:14:04Z axion: say i have either 0.0 or 0 and would like to output "00". is this possible? 2015-11-29T01:14:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:14:14Z GraveLlama: Is chrome better than firefox for lisp 2015-11-29T01:14:20Z pjb: axion: why don't you try? 2015-11-29T01:14:25Z axion: i have 2015-11-29T01:14:37Z axion: i cannot get rid of the decimal 2015-11-29T01:15:38Z blubjr: axion: i dont think you can from within format 2015-11-29T01:15:39Z pjb: Yep. Try (round number). 2015-11-29T01:16:15Z zettai left #lisp 2015-11-29T01:17:43Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:18:12Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:18:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T01:20:21Z pjb: ~D is the same as ~10R. 2015-11-29T01:20:29Z pjb: and for ~R the argument must be integer. 2015-11-29T01:21:25Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:22:26Z user29 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:23:50Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:35:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:41:05Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:41:06Z arescorpio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:41:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:42:08Z zirmann quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-11-29T01:43:35Z dsevilla quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T01:44:07Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:45:43Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:46:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:46:52Z circ-user-7JBI4 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:47:08Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:47:17Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T01:47:35Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T01:48:35Z axion: thanks, is there likewise a way to output only the first or last x digits of a number? 2015-11-29T01:49:36Z circ-user-7JBI4: In the Lisp I manual, it refers to "LISP-SAP" and "SAP" but not what SAP is. Any ideas what it is? Example context from the manual: "The compiler proceeds in three stages 1) Generation of LISP-SAP..." 2015-11-29T01:50:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:50:59Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:51:26Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-29T01:51:56Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:52:15Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:56:37Z justanotheruser joined #lisp 2015-11-29T01:57:12Z justanotheruser: Is there a tool to compile lisp to a logic gate representation? 2015-11-29T01:59:46Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T01:59:49Z opcode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:00:48Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-29T02:00:51Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:01:02Z GraveLlama: why is there no lisp .net 2015-11-29T02:01:22Z mtl_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:01:22Z o`connor quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:01:22Z phf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:01:59Z GraveLlama quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T02:03:41Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:05:51Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T02:07:12Z mtl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:07:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:07:46Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T02:07:50Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:10:38Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:12:03Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T02:14:18Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:15:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:19:07Z justanotheruser quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2015-11-29T02:19:24Z p_l: justinmcp_: some people used Lisp to generate VHDL 2015-11-29T02:19:30Z justanotheruser joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:22:07Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T02:26:22Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:26:48Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:27:23Z verdammelt joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:28:09Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:28:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:29:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:29:12Z ZCH_D joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:32:50Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:37:19Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T02:37:56Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:42:45Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:47:20Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:51:08Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:54:10Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:55:04Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:55:45Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T02:56:38Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T02:57:30Z circ-user-7JBI4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T02:57:50Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:00:10Z peterhil_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:00:24Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-29T03:01:15Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:01:21Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:03:44Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T03:05:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:06:29Z Bike quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:06:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:08:31Z Bike quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:08:45Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:08:52Z Bike quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:10:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:13:30Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:13:31Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:19:07Z beach joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:19:19Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-11-29T03:19:45Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T03:22:02Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:23:28Z ZCH_D quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-11-29T03:24:45Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-29T03:31:14Z justanotheruser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:31:15Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T03:32:56Z l04m33_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T03:33:17Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:33:32Z Fare: beach: hi 2015-11-29T03:33:41Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T03:34:27Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:34:58Z beach: Fare: I read part of the chapter. I haven't finished yet. 2015-11-29T03:35:08Z beach: Maybe I'll email what I have to you. 2015-11-29T03:35:32Z beach: Or should I just start over with the new version? 2015-11-29T03:35:55Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:36:14Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:36:14Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:36:17Z Fare: as you like 2015-11-29T03:36:32Z beach: OK, remind me of your email, please! 2015-11-29T03:36:47Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:36:47Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:37:03Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:37:03Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:37:12Z user29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:37:12Z user29 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T03:39:02Z Fare pushes a new draft 2015-11-29T03:40:38Z beach: Fare: Is it a secret? 2015-11-29T03:40:44Z beach: Oh, got it. Thanks. 2015-11-29T03:42:38Z beach: Email sent. 2015-11-29T03:42:45Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:43:29Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:44:41Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-29T03:46:50Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:47:09Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:48:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:48:03Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:48:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-29T03:50:28Z Fare: got it- thanks 2015-11-29T03:50:51Z beach: Pleasure. 2015-11-29T03:51:32Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:54:10Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:55:37Z verdammelt left #lisp 2015-11-29T03:56:00Z circ-user-7JBI4 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T03:58:30Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T03:59:36Z Fare: OK, pushed a new version. Thanks! 2015-11-29T04:00:02Z beach: I'll read it later today. 2015-11-29T04:00:03Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-29T04:00:10Z circ-user-7JBI4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:03:49Z Fare: thanks 2015-11-29T04:04:08Z Fare: I may or may not publish it later tonight, at which point the URL will change slightly 2015-11-29T04:04:36Z beach: It's fine. You told me that things can be altered even after publishing. 2015-11-29T04:05:31Z Fare: yes they can 2015-11-29T04:05:50Z Fare: oceania has always been at war with eastasia. 2015-11-29T04:06:08Z beach: Heh! Right. 2015-11-29T04:08:19Z Fare: SASOS was already possible in the 32-bit (or with much more pain, 16-bit) world, using pointer-swizzling. 2015-11-29T04:08:44Z beach: I guess so. I bit harder to do perhaps. 2015-11-29T04:08:52Z beach: I hadn't thought about that so much. 2015-11-29T04:08:52Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T04:10:37Z Fare: a read barrier is quite expensive (probably needed on 16-bit system), but a map barrier is affordable (doable on 32-bit system with MMU). When you load a page, make sure all the pointers it contains are mapped to "page 0", and have a dictionary of the "actual address". Requires precise memory maps. 2015-11-29T04:10:37Z beach: So we haven't had any excuse for the past 4 decades or so. :) 2015-11-29T04:11:08Z Fare: There were prototype 64-bit SASOS on 32-bit hardware in the early 1990s from our .oz friends. 2015-11-29T04:11:18Z beach: Oh, interesting. 2015-11-29T04:11:23Z Fare: Grasshopper, and whatever other names they had. 2015-11-29T04:11:35Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:12:02Z Fare: the RScheme guys also had a paper on pointer swizzling for GCing large address spaces. 2015-11-29T04:12:06Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:12:14Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-11-29T04:13:13Z Fare: I'm told some AI team from the West coast has a distributed Lisp with 128-bit objects, and uses pointer swizzling the same way. 2015-11-29T04:13:26Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:13:27Z Fare: 128-bit words, I mean. 2015-11-29T04:13:33Z beach: Yes, I spent a year with Paul Wilson in Austin studying stuff like that. 2015-11-29T04:14:08Z Fare: I'm told Paul got a breakdown and never got back on his feet, or something :-( 2015-11-29T04:14:18Z beach: Yeah. Sad story. 2015-11-29T04:14:28Z rme left #lisp 2015-11-29T04:14:33Z beach: Very smart guy. 2015-11-29T04:14:37Z beach: Funny too. 2015-11-29T04:14:38Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T04:14:40Z Fare: (only now reading your slides at https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS/blob/master/Talks/HIQ/slides.tex -- is there a pdf?) 2015-11-29T04:15:07Z beach: I can make one for you if you like. 2015-11-29T04:15:10Z beach: Hold on... 2015-11-29T04:15:57Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:16:21Z sweater is now known as Guest95900 2015-11-29T04:16:57Z Fare: I still need to proofread my article another time before I publish it for good. Hopefully within the hour. Soft goal: no sentence longer than two lines. 2015-11-29T04:17:19Z beach: http://metamodular.com/slides.pdf 2015-11-29T04:17:48Z Fare: thanks 2015-11-29T04:18:04Z Fare: regarding replacing functions: atomic transactions are important. 2015-11-29T04:18:05Z beach: Yeah, that would be good. Speakers of English have a much harder time with long sentences than speakers of French. 2015-11-29T04:18:49Z Fare: even in French, most think my sentences are too long... and that's after I've learned to make them shorter. 2015-11-29T04:18:57Z beach: Heh! OK. 2015-11-29T04:21:01Z phf joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:28:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:29:33Z jasom: CLISP (along with an emacs buffer with code for conway's game of life) makes an appearance in the closing sequence of a currently airing anime: http://b.1339.cf/kqyvngq.webm 2015-11-29T04:32:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:32:51Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:32:51Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T04:33:07Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:33:29Z Bike: ha ha, beat you to it 2015-11-29T04:33:49Z Bike: it's cool how there's meta life cells and all 2015-11-29T04:36:33Z phf: is that the same code that was used in Lain, from the cmu archive? 2015-11-29T04:37:25Z Bike: i don't think so. 2015-11-29T04:38:11Z lnostdal_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:39:08Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:39:24Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:39:29Z Bike: uses &aux in a labels... gosh 2015-11-29T04:39:42Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:39:55Z phf: oldschool 2015-11-29T04:39:55Z Bike: of course, i don't remember which directory lain's CA was in 2015-11-29T04:40:50Z phf: fun! 2015-11-29T04:40:57Z Bike: it was this one, right? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/fun/life.cl 2015-11-29T04:40:59Z phf: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/fun/life.cl 2015-11-29T04:41:02Z phf: ha 2015-11-29T04:41:03Z phf: yes 2015-11-29T04:41:04Z Bike: in lain, i mean. 2015-11-29T04:41:10Z phf: yes 2015-11-29T04:41:23Z Bike: well, in the webm you can see some code using labels in a dest-bind. 2015-11-29T04:41:42Z Guest95900 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:41:47Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:41:49Z Bike: filename is conway-game-of-life.lisp, lot of good that does 2015-11-29T04:42:44Z phf: i can never remember ffmpeg incantations 2015-11-29T04:43:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:43:21Z Bike: can anyone 2015-11-29T04:43:21Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T04:44:06Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T04:44:12Z Fare: Bike: is it a hashlife implementation, at least? 2015-11-29T04:44:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:44:51Z Bike: one of the inner functions was all the neighbor counting silliness, so my guess is no, but it's hard to say 2015-11-29T04:45:02Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:45:14Z phf: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life#Common_Lisp 2015-11-29T04:45:36Z Bike: lol that looks about right 2015-11-29T04:45:50Z Bike: i wonder if the other CA actually had code then 2015-11-29T04:47:59Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:49:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T04:50:13Z sivoais quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T04:51:13Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-11-29T04:59:29Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T04:59:54Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:01:54Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:04:03Z Fare: OK, I believe I'm publishing it, now. 2015-11-29T05:04:27Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-11-29T05:07:41Z justanotheruser joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:09:15Z cagmz quit 2015-11-29T05:14:35Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T05:14:54Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:15:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T05:17:57Z Fare: http://j.mp/AsKDoes 2015-11-29T05:18:31Z beach: Excellent! 2015-11-29T05:18:52Z beach: I will have a good time reading it, as usual. 2015-11-29T05:24:02Z l04m33 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T05:24:03Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T05:24:03Z kjeldahl_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T05:24:03Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T05:26:40Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T05:26:47Z Yuuhi` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:27:06Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:28:45Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:30:02Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-29T05:31:32Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:32:09Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T05:33:21Z kjeldahl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:37:34Z lokulin quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T05:37:34Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:38:10Z sword` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:40:53Z Fare: thanks for helping make it better 2015-11-29T05:41:10Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:42:29Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:44:49Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-11-29T05:44:57Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:46:04Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-29T05:49:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:52:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T05:52:57Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T05:52:59Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T05:59:41Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:01:25Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T06:02:26Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T06:02:27Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T06:02:48Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:04:38Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:06:05Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:14:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:14:18Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T06:14:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:20:18Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:22:02Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T06:24:03Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:38:07Z jayne joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:38:32Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:40:29Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:42:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:45:07Z drmeister: Hey beach. 2015-11-29T06:45:13Z drmeister: Hi everybody 2015-11-29T06:45:47Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:46:16Z drmeister: beach - we are writing a new scraper and cleaning up the ~1500 C++ functions exposed to Common Lisp by hand as you suggested. 2015-11-29T06:47:31Z drmeister: One main goal is to get M-. in slime to jump to the appropriate C++ code for a function to improve discoverability. 2015-11-29T06:50:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T06:53:32Z Fare: congrats! 2015-11-29T06:53:52Z Fare: drmeister, how does the new compiler compare speedwise to ECL? to SBCL? 2015-11-29T06:54:40Z Fare: does it work with the latest asdf release? 2015-11-29T06:55:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-29T06:55:49Z drmeister: Fare: I haven't tested the latest asdf release - too many other things going on. 2015-11-29T06:56:21Z drmeister: Speedwise it's much faster than it used to be (up to 200x) and the best code is about 4x slower than SBCL - I haven't compared to ECL. 2015-11-29T06:57:10Z drmeister: But generally it's still fairly slow. We are working on it though. It's fast enough for what I need right now and will get faster. 2015-11-29T06:57:11Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T06:58:06Z Fare: 4x slower than SBCL is quite good actually. Same ballpark as CCL. 2015-11-29T06:58:32Z blubjr: hm with ~f in format, if neither of w and d are given then k does nothing ? thats strange 2015-11-29T06:58:55Z Fare: although at its best CCL is more like 1x or 2x slower than SBCL. 2015-11-29T06:59:07Z drmeister: Thanks to beach's Cleavir compiler and LLVM. I'm just gluing stuff together. 2015-11-29T06:59:51Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T06:59:54Z drmeister: Once we have type inference and a few other optimizations it should give the other compilers a run for their money. 2015-11-29T07:00:27Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T07:01:11Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:02:51Z sword joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:05:09Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:09:07Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:09:18Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-11-29T07:09:55Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-11-29T07:13:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:17:20Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:17:34Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:21:43Z edran quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-11-29T07:21:49Z edran joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:22:45Z Fare: Someday soon I shall start writing a Houyhnhnm computing system. 2015-11-29T07:23:50Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:30:49Z blt joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:31:04Z beach: Please do. 2015-11-29T07:31:34Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:31:53Z beach: If you decrease your ambition level for the ultimate system, it could be close to the one I am working on. 2015-11-29T07:32:02Z setheus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:32:48Z beach: Mine won't solve all the problem you identify in your essay, but (in my opinion) some of the most important ones. 2015-11-29T07:33:31Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:36:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:37:52Z Fare: :-) 2015-11-29T07:38:02Z Fare: I'm not done with the chapter series yet 2015-11-29T07:38:15Z beach: True. 2015-11-29T07:38:17Z Fare: I have at least one on modularity and/or applications 2015-11-29T07:38:42Z Fare: I might write a comparison between Houyhnhnm computing and martian computing (Urbit). 2015-11-29T07:39:40Z beach: Maybe I am imagining things, but it looks like whenever you come up with a new chapter, it is a (much more profound, and much funnier) description of a problem I have already identified, and that I intend to address. 2015-11-29T07:41:10Z beach: I am saying that because one has a tendency to read and understand some text in the context of what one already knows. 2015-11-29T07:43:54Z circ-user-7JBI4 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:44:29Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:45:46Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T07:46:03Z reggiN joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:46:18Z reggiN: for free speech type /join #IHATENIGGERS 2015-11-29T07:46:30Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:47:22Z reggiN left #lisp 2015-11-29T07:47:50Z circ-user-7JBI4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:49:50Z Fare: :-) 2015-11-29T07:50:10Z Fare: well, I know my public is small, but I love my public. Thank you for being it. 2015-11-29T07:50:30Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:50:43Z beach: Heh! That's a very pessimistic estimate of the size of your audience. 2015-11-29T07:50:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:50:50Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:51:08Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:51:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:52:49Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:53:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T07:54:02Z Fare: my audience is probably a few tens of people. 2015-11-29T07:54:30Z Fare: I don't believe it reaches 100. 2015-11-29T07:54:38Z Fare: maybe not 50 2015-11-29T07:55:18Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-29T07:55:28Z beach: That sounds about right. 2015-11-29T07:55:49Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:57:19Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T07:58:44Z brucem: Fare: I enjoy them, but I'm behind on reading them. 2015-11-29T08:02:45Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:04:43Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:07:39Z White_Flame: I remain skeptical. I've built & worked in production with transparently persistent, no program counter, transparent threading, "do what's necessary" framework. Updating and versioning is very difficult to get right 2015-11-29T08:07:52Z White_Flame: though it is an interesting read and does bring some issues to light 2015-11-29T08:08:32Z White_Flame: even when looking at hot code replacement without code changes, but just optimization changes, there's a ton to juggle 2015-11-29T08:08:57Z White_Flame: and once behavior starts to change, there are a lot of fundamentally unresolvable degenerate cases 2015-11-29T08:09:46Z White_Flame: to me, it all comes down to "hard AI", where the machine "understands" what needs to be done instead of being commanded as to what steps to take. But we're not there yet, so what medium is there that will work better 2015-11-29T08:10:24Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:10:37Z npatrick` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:12:13Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:13Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:13Z tkd_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:48Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:49Z ngrud quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:51Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:12:57Z Warlock_29A joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:13:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:13:43Z phadthai joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:14:30Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:15:04Z Warlock_29A quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T08:15:12Z beach: Skepticism is healthy of course. 2015-11-29T08:17:20Z White_Flame: and I still do look forward to the continuation of the series 2015-11-29T08:17:24Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:18:33Z Warlock[29A] joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:18:47Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:18:50Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:19:06Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:23:01Z blt quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-29T08:24:16Z vhost- joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:25:26Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:25:56Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:26:00Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:31:30Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:37:04Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:43:30Z kyfho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:47:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:49:41Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:51:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:52:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T08:54:30Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T08:57:26Z cyphase_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:01:13Z archonix joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:01:35Z archonix is now known as Guest26666 2015-11-29T09:05:23Z mac_ified quit 2015-11-29T09:06:56Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:08:42Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-11-29T09:09:05Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:09:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:09:42Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T09:09:50Z Guest26666 quit (Quit: Guest26666) 2015-11-29T09:10:34Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:14:56Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:15:06Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-29T09:15:38Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:19:50Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:20:59Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:21:26Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T09:22:34Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:25:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:31:00Z blubjr: on the hyperspec page for section 22.3.2.1 it says that (format nil "~19,0,' ,4:B" 3333) should evaluate to "0000 1101 0000 0101" 2015-11-29T09:31:28Z sakalli joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:31:33Z blubjr: padchar isn't quoted, so that's actually an error, right ? 2015-11-29T09:32:11Z blubjr: and even if it were, breaking the number up into comma interval should happen before padding, so it still wouldn't produce the output it says 2015-11-29T09:32:20Z blubjr: i think, any insight would be appreciated 2015-11-29T09:36:03Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:37:16Z Whitesquall joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:37:56Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:39:38Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:40:06Z Nilby joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:41:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:44:41Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-29T09:46:02Z haom2 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:47:31Z haom2: hello 2015-11-29T09:47:37Z blubjr: hi haom2 2015-11-29T09:47:57Z haom2: is there a way to quickly run a shell command and get the result as a string? 2015-11-29T09:48:02Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:48:27Z sid_cypher: haom2: there's trivial-shell at least on linux. 2015-11-29T09:50:05Z sid_cypher: (uiop:run-program "command with args" :output t) works as well 2015-11-29T09:51:07Z haom2: oh yes, the latter is great. 2015-11-29T09:51:09Z haom2: thanks. 2015-11-29T09:51:20Z Shinmera: :output T will write it to the stdout. Use :output :string for a string. 2015-11-29T09:51:22Z sid_cypher: oh, gotta use with-output-to-string for the last one 2015-11-29T09:51:41Z sid_cypher: ooh! that was an option. 2015-11-29T09:52:30Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T09:52:32Z haom2: sbcl has something similar but in only outputs to streams 2015-11-29T09:52:41Z haom2: so that was exactly what i was looking for. 2015-11-29T09:52:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:53:06Z Shinmera: UIOP is a portability layer, so it'll call SBCL's RUN-PROGRAM in the end. 2015-11-29T09:53:09Z anti-freeze joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:53:50Z haom2: yes, but it prevents having to do the with-output-to-string every time. 2015-11-29T09:54:10Z Shinmera: A function would prevent having to do that too. 2015-11-29T09:55:23Z anti-freeze is now known as a-reader-bot 2015-11-29T09:55:31Z a-reader-bot is now known as anti-freeze 2015-11-29T09:56:04Z anti-freeze is now known as a-reader-bot 2015-11-29T09:56:53Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:56:53Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T09:59:02Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T09:59:14Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T10:00:06Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:00:40Z adam789654123 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T10:00:46Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:00:46Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T10:00:46Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:00:50Z haom2: yes, but i still like to find out if there is a "standard" option. 2015-11-29T10:02:13Z haom2: is asdf/uiop loaded by default by sbcl? 2015-11-29T10:02:57Z Shinmera: No. 2015-11-29T10:03:10Z Shinmera: But if you use Quicklisp it will be. 2015-11-29T10:03:36Z haom2: ah ok, that explains it. 2015-11-29T10:11:53Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:16:11Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:16:21Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:21:54Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T10:21:55Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T10:22:37Z justanotheruser quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T10:26:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:26:32Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:26:43Z msb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T10:27:12Z haom2 left #lisp 2015-11-29T10:31:25Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:33:45Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:43:44Z pjb: blubjr: (format nil "~19,'0,' ,4:B" 3333) #| --> "000001101 0000 0101" |# 2015-11-29T10:44:08Z blubjr: pjb: right 2015-11-29T10:44:16Z pjb: blubjr: it seems ccl clisp cmucl and sbcl agree with you. 2015-11-29T10:45:00Z pjb: blubjr: there would certainly be a need for a nice cl-user::fmt-int format specifier function. 2015-11-29T10:46:00Z beach left #lisp 2015-11-29T10:48:47Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T10:53:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T11:04:36Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:17:41Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:22:07Z medfly joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:22:21Z zyg joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:22:31Z medfly left #lisp 2015-11-29T11:22:34Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T11:22:41Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T11:25:43Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:25:54Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:26:21Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:26:37Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-29T11:27:14Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:28:50Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T11:35:17Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:39:08Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:40:01Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:49:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:50:25Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:52:02Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:52:13Z Qudit314` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:52:54Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T11:54:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T11:54:48Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-29T11:55:01Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:02:26Z Qudit314` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:03:29Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:04:02Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:04:45Z peterhil_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T12:06:32Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:06:40Z cataska quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-29T12:08:10Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:09:05Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:10:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:10:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:12:50Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:13:59Z peterhil_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:18:17Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-11-29T12:18:27Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:20:46Z Bahman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T12:21:19Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:23:05Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:23:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T12:30:44Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:30:45Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T12:32:25Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:32:26Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:35:48Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:36:20Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:39:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:42:20Z Qudit314159 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:45:13Z SAL9000: Is there a Lisp library available for MIME-type detection and handling? 2015-11-29T12:45:19Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-29T12:45:47Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:46:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:50:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:50:36Z dim: google returns https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-mimes 2015-11-29T12:50:47Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:51:07Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T12:51:53Z SAL9000: uh, that uses a file-extension mapping. My application can't trust the file extensions, unfortunately. 2015-11-29T12:52:05Z SAL9000: and I may not have /usr/bin/file available, thus the question. 2015-11-29T12:54:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T12:55:15Z mtl_: SAL9000: there's some code for handling binary files in practical common lisp somewhere 2015-11-29T12:56:20Z SAL9000: mtl_: I don't need to open them, just detect whether they're PDF, EPUB, FB2, etc. and if it's one of a supported subset, check for it's validity 2015-11-29T12:56:35Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T13:02:08Z SAL9000: Seems that https://github.com/dochang/magicffi is suitable. Thanks for your suggestions, everyone! :-) 2015-11-29T13:04:39Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T13:06:03Z Xach: SAL9000: for what it's worth, when i needed to do that for a small number of image file formats, I wound up writing my own. 2015-11-29T13:06:28Z Xach: I loaded the first 100 or so octets from the files and used that to find the magic and some metadata (like dimensions) 2015-11-29T13:07:00Z SAL9000: Xach: I'm expecting everything and anything - I'm scraping a website with ebooks. So far I've gotten everything from EPUBs to antique Palm PDA-specific formats and some files that even /usr/bin/file flipped the "binary data" table at. 2015-11-29T13:07:50Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T13:10:17Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:11:11Z Xach: SAL9000: ah 2015-11-29T13:11:52Z Xach: SAL9000: I vaguely remember a project that parsed the file(1) magic data file to produce native lisp checkers, but I might be remembering wrong 2015-11-29T13:12:20Z Xach so many projects 2015-11-29T13:12:47Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T13:15:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:18:48Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:19:42Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:20:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:21:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:21:22Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T13:21:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T13:23:59Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T13:24:50Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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SlashLife kolko quasisane seg isoraqathedh gigetoo Quadrescence emma fiddlerw2aroof eagleflo ivan\ eak add^_ mprelude dim flip214 hyoyoung segmond taij33n finnrobi guaqua` lpaste ircbrows- fe[nl]ix Blkt cpt_nemo Riviera joshe lispyone danlentz XachX newcup antoszka phcrist ggherdov alms_clozure darlinger SilentEcho 2015-11-29T13:41:47Z names: d4gg4d victor_lowther_ billstclair oskarth rvirding lancetw constantinexvi_ faheem___ jozip asedeno MoALTz Neet jasom vydd nightfly trig-ger larme n2kra_ z0d NhanH jdz scymtym_ wolf_moz- musegarden3 splittist_ l1x marienz lokulin reggy sjl_ MrWoohoo2 MrWoohoo karswell blubjr rtoym_ abbe_ DGASAU` phoe_krk ssake_ joga jurov sytse_ minion Colleen____ jackc- Oladon1 atgreen pootler cyraxjoe nyef wyan ben_vulpes mikaelj_ tessier__ j_king_ ferada MikeSeth 2015-11-29T13:41:47Z names: sfa_ ryan_vw_ tessier_1 tstc` samebcha1e theBlackDragon failproo1shark vlnx_ zaquest john-mca` ivan4th` oGMo rvchangue luis` les` trn snits ecraven __main__ TMM haasn clop 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2015-11-29T15:00:58Z atgreen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T15:01:11Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-29T15:01:14Z oceanpollen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T15:01:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:01:57Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T15:01:57Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:01:59Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T15:03:27Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-29T15:12:17Z circ-user-7JBI4 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:15:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:16:20Z circ-user-7JBI4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T15:16:36Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:17:50Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-11-29T15:17:52Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:22:39Z Nilby: Does anyone know an easy way to copy between streams of arbitrary differing ELEMENT-TYPEs? I was hoping flexi-streams would do it, but I can't see how. Nor do bi-valent streams seem to read-sequence of bytes. 2015-11-29T15:23:09Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T15:40:23Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-11-29T15:44:03Z lvh_ is now known as lvh 2015-11-29T15:49:14Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:50:01Z DeadTrickster: hey 2015-11-29T15:50:15Z DeadTrickster: how to submit task to lparallel kernel without waiting for result? 2015-11-29T15:50:37Z DeadTrickster: not exactly without waiting or maybe not putting its result to channel queue 2015-11-29T15:50:52Z DeadTrickster: right now i'm using submit-raw-task or something like that 2015-11-29T15:51:12Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: maybe use a future ? 2015-11-29T15:51:16Z SlashLife quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T15:51:16Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:51:21Z jackdaniel: http://lparallel.org/promises/ 2015-11-29T15:51:25Z SlashLife is now known as scriptkitty 2015-11-29T15:52:02Z scriptkitty is now known as WTF 2015-11-29T15:52:05Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:52:08Z WTF is now known as SlashLife 2015-11-29T15:52:13Z SlashLife quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T15:52:13Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:52:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:52:56Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, i really don't care about value 2015-11-29T15:53:04Z DeadTrickster: or task result 2015-11-29T15:53:31Z DeadTrickster: and promises/futures is overkill imho 2015-11-29T15:53:50Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T15:55:32Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T15:56:35Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T15:56:56Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:01:05Z dim: is there a perf difference between looping over the index of an array and calling aref each time and looping across the array elements directly? 2015-11-29T16:01:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:01:12Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T16:01:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:01:32Z dim: DeadTrickster: submit-task 2015-11-29T16:01:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T16:02:02Z dim: then you can wait for its completion with receive-result 2015-11-29T16:06:23Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:08:32Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:10:23Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:10:49Z SAL9000: I'd like to use lparallel with CLSQL - how can I ensure that each lparallel worker has it's own connection to the database? 2015-11-29T16:11:23Z fe[nl]ix: dim: there shouldn't be. You can easily macroexpand LOOP 2015-11-29T16:12:12Z phoe_krk: dear #lisp, TIL about slime-inspector 2015-11-29T16:13:15Z DeadTrickster: dim, I don't want to wait and i don't care about task result as i said 2015-11-29T16:13:38Z DeadTrickster: so looks like submit-raw-task and make-task-instance is a way to go 2015-11-29T16:14:16Z DeadTrickster: actually I already using this for last couple years, just thought there might be shortcut or whatever 2015-11-29T16:22:06Z dim: fe[nl]ix: thanks, should have, was thinking in terms of disassemble so prefered asking here first 2015-11-29T16:22:36Z dim: DeadTrickster: surely at some point you want to know the talk is done? 2015-11-29T16:22:41Z dim: not talk, sorry, task? 2015-11-29T16:22:49Z DeadTrickster: no :-) 2015-11-29T16:22:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:22:52Z circ-user-7JBI4 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:22:56Z DeadTrickster: just throwing lambdas) 2015-11-29T16:23:13Z dim: mm. well, ok, can't imagine the use case here, baffled, but ok ;-) 2015-11-29T16:23:54Z DeadTrickster: use case is simple - when message from rabbitmq arrived I want to execute consumer handler 2015-11-29T16:24:38Z DeadTrickster: and client really shouldn't care if it succeeded or not since there is message acks for that 2015-11-29T16:24:57Z DeadTrickster: if handler fails badly lparallel will restart broken worker 2015-11-29T16:25:03Z DeadTrickster: that is all I want 2015-11-29T16:25:06Z dim: so it's running in the context of an always-running processing daemon? 2015-11-29T16:25:11Z Shinmera: dim: Why not benchmark? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/DW# 2015-11-29T16:25:19Z DeadTrickster: yep 2015-11-29T16:25:36Z DeadTrickster: you subscribe to queues and then server pushes messages to you 2015-11-29T16:25:59Z dim: Shinmera: thanks! well because I was solving something else and just went curious about some spelling in my code, but didn't want to stop and inquire, figured I would ask instead ;-) 2015-11-29T16:26:46Z dim: DeadTrickster: I'm not sure if lparallel scheduler still "wants" you to receive-result so that it can manage fewer threads 2015-11-29T16:27:22Z DeadTrickster: dim, lparallel pushes task result to channel queue 2015-11-29T16:27:27Z DeadTrickster: no channel no queue 2015-11-29T16:27:43Z DeadTrickster: submit-task wraps your lambda for that 2015-11-29T16:29:02Z dim: oh ok, didn't dive into the details 2015-11-29T16:29:26Z dim: well in my use case I want to receive the result, mainly to implement "rendez-vous" points 2015-11-29T16:30:30Z shookees quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T16:30:40Z DeadTrickster: dim, I tried to use promise from lparallel and rewrote it myself because force has no timeout option 2015-11-29T16:30:54Z DeadTrickster: but I was trying to do this outside of lparallel context 2015-11-29T16:31:30Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:32:03Z dim: have you tried playing with https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-muproc/ instead? 2015-11-29T16:32:15Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-29T16:33:48Z easye: DeadTrickster: Hmmm. I think one can use timeout on tasks submitted to queues to implement a promise that times out. 2015-11-29T16:33:54Z DeadTrickster: dim, yea actually I even write actual erlang stuff. however native threads are too heavy imho for this design. 2015-11-29T16:34:13Z DeadTrickster: I'm cherry-picking ideas though 2015-11-29T16:34:32Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:34:57Z DeadTrickster: easye, lparallel supports timeout? 2015-11-29T16:36:20Z easye: There's timeouts all over the API. 2015-11-29T16:36:25Z easye: http://quickdocs.org/lparallel/api#package-LPARALLEL.QUEUE 2015-11-29T16:37:35Z DeadTrickster: easye, as I said I was trying to use Promise outside of lparallel world 2015-11-29T16:38:11Z DeadTrickster: also funny thing 2015-11-29T16:38:24Z DeadTrickster: basically this pattern wraps around condition-wait but bt doesn't support condition-wait timeouts 2015-11-29T16:38:39Z DeadTrickster: I'm speaking about Promises and queues 2015-11-29T16:38:47Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:38:56Z easye: DeadTrickster: Oh. Misundertood on my part. I hardly ever code stuff outside of lparallel these days. 2015-11-29T16:39:02Z DeadTrickster: so for example try-pop-queue has loop inside 2015-11-29T16:39:15Z easye: (which have both promises and queues (channels)) 2015-11-29T16:39:43Z jaykru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T16:40:02Z easye: Ah. Don't use that part of the API unless you need to. LPARALLEL:SUBMIT-TIMEOUT should be all you need. 2015-11-29T16:40:29Z easye: But if you don't want to use lparallel, then bordeaux-threads has nice implementations of conditional waits. 2015-11-29T16:41:36Z DeadTrickster: easye, submit-timeout creates new thread for each cal 2015-11-29T16:41:37Z DeadTrickster: call 2015-11-29T16:41:51Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:41:54Z DeadTrickster: which make all this thread-pool stuff pointless 2015-11-29T16:42:11Z easye: Not according to the dock. 2015-11-29T16:42:24Z easye: s/dock/doctring/ 2015-11-29T16:42:34Z DeadTrickster: and bt:condition-wait sucks as I said. it doesn't support timeouts as e.g. sb-thread:condition-wait does 2015-11-29T16:42:57Z DeadTrickster: here is excerpt from my lparallel version: The difference is that `submit-timeout' does not occupy a worker 2015-11-29T16:42:57Z DeadTrickster: thread. 2015-11-29T16:42:57Z easye paraphases "No thread is created during the timeout pause" 2015-11-29T16:43:05Z easye scrolls back. 2015-11-29T16:43:17Z DeadTrickster: and inside there is with-thread which basicall wraps make-thread 2015-11-29T16:43:19Z easye: Ah, I missed your earlier stuff. 2015-11-29T16:43:21Z easye: Just a sec. 2015-11-29T16:43:39Z dim: DeadTrickster: yeah I did some Erlang back in 2000/2003, I have fond memories of playing with it (it got me started in the FP world basically), and I'm using lparallel somehow because of that 2015-11-29T16:44:40Z DeadTrickster: dim, they added dict type ) 2015-11-29T16:45:09Z dim: easye: if you're bored and want to review code using lparallel for all its parallelism support, pgloader would need another pair of eyes ;-) 2015-11-29T16:45:13Z DeadTrickster: you may want to give it a try again 2015-11-29T16:45:31Z dim: well I really like CL 2015-11-29T16:45:38Z DeadTrickster: also lfe btw 2015-11-29T16:45:50Z dim: and pgloader is more about getting fast processing than handling threads anyway 2015-11-29T16:46:45Z dim: currently pgloader is still much slower than I want to to be at parsing CSV and other file formats 2015-11-29T16:47:16Z DeadTrickster: what csv parsing you are using? 2015-11-29T16:47:22Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:47:26Z dim: seems ok when the data source is smart enough to be fast (mysql, sqlite, etc), but when reading files, it's so much slower than pgsql :/ 2015-11-29T16:47:29Z dim: cl-csv 2015-11-29T16:47:43Z dim: from AccelerationNet IIRC 2015-11-29T16:47:46Z DeadTrickster: hmm 2015-11-29T16:47:49Z easye: dim: ooh. I'd be glad to do a code review. 2015-11-29T16:47:56Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T16:47:57Z easye eyes his stack. 2015-11-29T16:48:04Z DeadTrickster: I did testing a couple of years back 2015-11-29T16:48:19Z DeadTrickster: and now i'm using read-csv 2015-11-29T16:48:23Z dim: it's at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader easye 2015-11-29T16:48:26Z DeadTrickster: it was much much faster 2015-11-29T16:48:27Z easye: dim: Are you gonna present pgloader et. al. at ELS 2016? 2015-11-29T16:48:46Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T16:49:06Z dim: the problem with parsing CSV in the large (as in when you don't know the files your users are going to throw at your parser) is the number of crazy options you need to provide them with 2015-11-29T16:49:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:49:21Z easye: dim: I'll take a look when I get a chance. I have a bunch of ABCL-specific things that need addressing first. 2015-11-29T16:49:25Z dim: easye: I didn't schedule for that yet, I did a lightning talk at ELS 2014 tho 2015-11-29T16:49:38Z dim: I think I would like to have pgloader.jar 2015-11-29T16:49:55Z easye: But you've convinced me to install pg instead of mysql for a MediaWiki I need to whack around. 2015-11-29T16:50:17Z dim: but apparently compiling a CL system into a self-contained .jar isn't possible yet with ABCL short of using advanced frightnening invokations 2015-11-29T16:50:20Z easye would much more trust postgres over mysql for just about everythin. 2015-11-29T16:50:30Z dim: [+1] 2015-11-29T16:50:31Z easye: dim: Yeah. 2015-11-29T16:50:35Z easye: But we know how to do it. 2015-11-29T16:50:46Z dim: you're in the ABCL team? 2015-11-29T16:51:15Z easye: The question is how to link the metadata for all the artifacts within the .jar (zip within zip within tar within zip occurs...) 2015-11-29T16:51:25Z easye: Yep. I'm one of five comitters. 2015-11-29T16:51:37Z dim: my ABCL use case would quite obviously to be able to run pgloader on-top of any JDBC driver, that would be awesome on a user level support 2015-11-29T16:51:41Z easye: These days I mostly apply patches that show up on the mailing list. 2015-11-29T16:51:49Z easye: dim: I can get that done for you. 2015-11-29T16:52:09Z easye: pgloader is in Quicklisp? 2015-11-29T16:52:23Z dim: sure 2015-11-29T16:52:30Z dim: I'm not good at making releases tho 2015-11-29T16:52:40Z dim: so it's always quite an old version in QL 2015-11-29T16:52:56Z dim: the QL version is usually the most recently tagged in the git repo 2015-11-29T16:53:09Z dim: so https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/tree/v3.2.2 currently 2015-11-29T16:53:19Z easye: dim: http://abcl.org/trac/ticket/405 2015-11-29T16:53:30Z tessier__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:53:36Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T16:53:39Z easye: You can folow my progress, but I'll send you email when I have something worth looking at. 2015-11-29T16:53:49Z dim: oh wow, thanks! 2015-11-29T16:53:53Z jaykru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T16:53:58Z easye: Look, I'm real busy with a startup. 2015-11-29T16:54:09Z easye: But sometimes I find time for the open source stuff again. 2015-11-29T16:54:22Z easye: But it's definitely something that people could use. 2015-11-29T16:54:45Z easye: And it's technically quite possible. 2015-11-29T16:55:12Z dim: if your startup wants to move from something else to PostgreSQL then you might have a valid reason to look into pgloader seriously 2015-11-29T16:55:22Z easye: Our CFFI is to the point that we could dlopen() Oracle native drivers. 2015-11-29T16:55:42Z easye: Nah. The MediaWiki we don't care about. 2015-11-29T16:55:50Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:55:54Z easye: It's just an internal system. 2015-11-29T16:55:55Z dim: pgloader.jar would just be the beginning of the story tho, I would then need quite some hacking before we can use any JDBC driver in there... I am very interested into making it happen tho 2015-11-29T16:56:16Z easye: dim: I'll give an example of how to configure additional JDBC drivers. 2015-11-29T16:56:36Z phoe_krk: I have an usocket question. I want to do a non-blocking read so I use wait-for-input on the socket before I read anything. But then, how do I detect an EOF condition if (listen stream) returns NIL? 2015-11-29T16:56:42Z easye: We will probably need to restart the JVM for some implementations to change the load path of where it looks for JDBC. 2015-11-29T16:56:42Z Oladon1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:56:43Z dim: anyway, it's a "nice to have" wishlist entry for me, no pressing need whatsoever, so your "I might get to it at some point" schedule/priority is perfect for me, thanks again 2015-11-29T16:56:54Z phoe_krk: In theory, I cannot read anything, even an EOF, because (listen stream) is NIL. 2015-11-29T16:57:26Z phoe_krk: So if I want to read that EOF, I actually risk hanging the whole read, because it could be an EOF as well as it could be no data on the socket. 2015-11-29T16:57:31Z dim: easye: if the first version only support type 4 JDBC drivers (pure Java) it's ok too 2015-11-29T16:57:41Z phoe_krk: Which makes it unable for me to do a non-blocking read. 2015-11-29T16:57:59Z easye: dim: No problem. I have much respect for your work, but have been "away from SQL" for the past seven years, using RDF instead. 2015-11-29T16:58:12Z dim: graph databases, right? 2015-11-29T16:58:22Z dim: IIRC, triplets even 2015-11-29T16:58:41Z easye: Yep. 2015-11-29T16:58:49Z dim: (thanks for the comment) 2015-11-29T16:59:12Z easye: subject object predicate relationship with restrictions on the type membership of each slot. 2015-11-29T16:59:30Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T16:59:37Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: read-char-no-hang might be usable. 2015-11-29T16:59:37Z joga joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:00:48Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: it returns NIL. 2015-11-29T17:01:10Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: Yes? 2015-11-29T17:01:17Z phoe_krk: In both cases. 2015-11-29T17:01:22Z Shinmera: clhs read-char-no-hang 2015-11-29T17:01:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_c_1.htm 2015-11-29T17:01:29Z phoe_krk: If there's an EOL, it returns NIL. 2015-11-29T17:01:32Z phoe_krk: If there's no data, it returns NIL. 2015-11-29T17:01:33Z Shinmera: No. 2015-11-29T17:01:38Z dim: DeadTrickster: I think my next move for CSV performances would be to have several parsers, say 2, 1 optimized for speed but inflexible, and the current one being quite fast but really flexible, and decide which to use depending on the crazyness level of the user provided options to parse the source 2015-11-29T17:01:50Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:02:01Z dim: I mean in the simple cases parsing CSV is a split-sequence on-top of a read-line loop 2015-11-29T17:02:09Z phoe_krk: I just tested. On an open socket where there's nothing to read, it returns NIL. On a closed socket it also returns NIL. 2015-11-29T17:02:55Z dim: my goal for csv perfs is to see PostgreSQL use more CPU than pgloader, or at least 50% each ;-) 2015-11-29T17:03:30Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: Then the implementation is wrong. 2015-11-29T17:03:39Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:03:51Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: (read-char-no-hang (make-string-input-stream "")) => Error as per spec. 2015-11-29T17:03:57Z fe[nl]ix: dim: if you want to have fun you can use the tricks that GNU grep uses 2015-11-29T17:04:03Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:04:27Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: Unless of course, a closed socket is not treated as being at EOF. 2015-11-29T17:04:37Z fe[nl]ix: dim: mmap() the file, and parse into pre-allocated string buffers 2015-11-29T17:04:51Z yaewa joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:05:05Z Bike: isn't that what clhs listen says? return nil if there's nothing immediately available to read, return nil on EOF 2015-11-29T17:05:20Z dim: fe[nl]ix: I'd like that cl-csv consider those options ;-) 2015-11-29T17:05:25Z Shinmera: Bike: I'm talking about read-char-no-hang 2015-11-29T17:05:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:05:44Z Bike: oh, oops. 2015-11-29T17:05:50Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:06:05Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:06:06Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:06:10Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:06:26Z dim: fe[nl]ix: to be fair cl-csv has quite some perf tricks in it already, it's just far from being as efficient as PostgreSQL itself, and it shows in pgloader profiles where all pg is doing is waiting for more data 2015-11-29T17:06:55Z fe[nl]ix: dim: is row order important ? 2015-11-29T17:07:25Z fe[nl]ix: I guess in some cases it is 2015-11-29T17:07:50Z phoe_krk: (defparameter *socket* (socket-listen "localhost" 65035)) => *SOCKET* 2015-11-29T17:07:50Z phoe_krk: (defparameter *stream* (socket-stream (socket-accept (wait-for-input *socket* :timeout 3000)))) => *STREAM* ;after ncat localhost 65035 2015-11-29T17:07:59Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:08:14Z fe[nl]ix: dim: you could parallelize the parsing, a csv file is easily separable in chunks 2015-11-29T17:08:20Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: once I Ctrl-C on the ncat right now, how do I properly detect a closed socket? 2015-11-29T17:08:47Z fe[nl]ix: that's quite a nice project, actually 2015-11-29T17:08:54Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:09:29Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: I don't know, I haven't used usocket, really. 2015-11-29T17:10:08Z circ-user-7JBI4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T17:10:29Z phoe_krk: Hm. Anyone on #lisp with usocket experience? Win32 SBCL here, I'm trying to properly detect when a socket closes. 2015-11-29T17:10:47Z phoe_krk: Without the risk of blocking a read. 2015-11-29T17:10:48Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:11:23Z phoe_krk: Because right now I don't know whether a (listen *stream*) gives me NIL because of no available data or because of an EOF. 2015-11-29T17:11:53Z phoe_krk: I'd make a separate thread just to do that to ensure non-blocking of the main program but that seems like a *VERY DIRTY* hack to me. 2015-11-29T17:11:54Z kumul joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:11:59Z Oddity quit 2015-11-29T17:12:12Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:12:15Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:13:09Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:13:16Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:13:24Z jaykru joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:13:32Z dim: fe[nl]ix: not easily as soon as you have \n as part of the data, quoted (sometimes not quoted) 2015-11-29T17:13:45Z dim: row <> line 2015-11-29T17:14:09Z dim: or row ≠ line, should I type 2015-11-29T17:15:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:16:01Z kumool joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:16:23Z fe[nl]ix: that's true, but splitting into lines should be much faster than full sequential parsing 2015-11-29T17:17:58Z DeadTrickster: yeah csv is the beast with all possible options 2015-11-29T17:19:11Z kumul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:19:20Z fe[nl]ix: for large enough files you can have a thread that splits the file into chunks and pushes them onto a queue from which parser threads can take them 2015-11-29T17:20:01Z fe[nl]ix: then enqueue them to another queue of parsed data, and a writer thread reorders the parsed data and writes to the db socket 2015-11-29T17:21:19Z dim: I don't think I care much about the ordering if at all 2015-11-29T17:22:01Z dim: in SQL the only way to know the ordering of the result set of a query is to explicitely use the ORDER BY clause anyway 2015-11-29T17:22:37Z fe[nl]ix: I think to avoid surprises, it would be nice if the rows are inserted in the order they are present in the file 2015-11-29T17:22:55Z dim: but there's no way you can then SELECT them back in that order 2015-11-29T17:23:13Z dim: no way is a tad too strong, no guarantee 2015-11-29T17:23:55Z fe[nl]ix: well, if there's a sequence column involved that isn't present in the file, you can 2015-11-29T17:24:02Z fe[nl]ix: I used to do that :) 2015-11-29T17:24:06Z dim: the problem is when you split physical lines that together form a row, but are now given to different workers, there's is way you realize about that without parsing 2015-11-29T17:24:49Z dim: if there's a sequence columns, let's name it "id", then you SELECT * FROM target ORDER BY id; and you don't care about the order of insertion in the table, right? 2015-11-29T17:24:54Z fe[nl]ix: that's why I said that the initial thread should do a minimal parsing that only splits into rows 2015-11-29T17:25:18Z dim: mmm, missed that part 2015-11-29T17:26:05Z dim: is that possible in the general case? I don't think so... so it's back to the 2 parsers idea, one of those being done the way you're describing it 2015-11-29T17:26:08Z fe[nl]ix: which has the advantage that besides allocating the chunks, it should not cons at all and be pretty low overhead 2015-11-29T17:26:32Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:26:43Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:27:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:27:44Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:28:12Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T17:28:56Z DeadTrickster: dim, so pgloader actually implements (parts) of Postgre protocol? 2015-11-29T17:29:22Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:29:43Z DeadTrickster: I'm looking for something like this: https://github.com/noplay/python-mysql-replication 2015-11-29T17:30:02Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:31:36Z a-reader-bot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T17:33:37Z dim: pgloader uses Postmodern which is a pure-CL implementation of the PostgreSQL protocol, but doesn't contain the replication protocol IIRC 2015-11-29T17:33:45Z ukari: hola, i write function which returns a lambda,but must call it like (funcall #'closure arg), can it work like (closure arg)? 2015-11-29T17:34:00Z Shinmera: No. 2015-11-29T17:34:18Z Shinmera: Also you'd call it with (funcall closure arg). 2015-11-29T17:34:21Z dim: well the replication is really simple and then reuse the COPY protocol, and Postmodern has support for the COPY TO parts of it, only missing COPY FROM, which would be easy to implement I guess, and then full-duplex COPY would be easy again 2015-11-29T17:34:40Z ukari: due to varname and function name are not the samething 2015-11-29T17:35:25Z Shinmera: ukari: I'm confused by what you're saying now. 2015-11-29T17:35:50Z dim: DeadTrickster: I would like to implement the MySQL replication too in pgloader (in pure-CL, the mysql driver we use is pure CL too, qmynd, that I ended up more or less being the maintener of); so that we could do initial copy of the data then online replication from mysql to postgresql, it's on the pgloader todo ;-) 2015-11-29T17:36:00Z Shinmera: (flet ((make-a-closure () (lambda (a) (1+ a)))) (funcall (make-a-closure) 0)) 2015-11-29T17:36:20Z Shinmera: make-a-closure returns a function object which you must call by funcall. 2015-11-29T17:37:09Z sakalli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T17:37:15Z sakalli joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:37:29Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-29T17:39:40Z ukari: i mean defvar f and defun f won't conflict in lisp, but they conflict in c 2015-11-29T17:40:12Z Shinmera: CL is a lisp-2, so it has different namespaces for functions and variables, yes. 2015-11-29T17:40:26Z dim: DeadTrickster: added a note to https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/166 2015-11-29T17:41:16Z blackwolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T17:41:58Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-29T17:42:59Z Yuuhi` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:43:49Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:43:52Z native_killer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T17:44:05Z tmtwd_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:44:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:48:41Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:54:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T17:57:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T17:59:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T18:02:07Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-11-29T18:04:22Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T18:06:52Z DeadTrickster: dim, wow I'll try qymnd shortly 2015-11-29T18:06:52Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:07:00Z DeadTrickster: is it usable? 2015-11-29T18:07:23Z DeadTrickster: procedures calling is a must for me and multi-results 2015-11-29T18:10:35Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:14:46Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:15:35Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/issues/12 There, I formalized by question. 2015-11-29T18:17:19Z dim: DeadTrickster: pgloader usage is quite simple, I think it supports those yes, see also artisan-mysql 2015-11-29T18:18:10Z dim: it's at https://github.com/dimitri/artisan-mysql and I've only done very basic tests with it, I would like to take the time to integrate it in pgloader and see if it's better/faster than qmynd (I don't like qmynd code base) 2015-11-29T18:25:47Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:26:42Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T18:27:42Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T18:30:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:32:56Z adam789654123 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T18:33:18Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:33:27Z emaczen: Can you specialize on types created by deftype? 2015-11-29T18:34:01Z Shinmera: You can't specialise on any type. Generic functions specialise on classes only. 2015-11-29T18:36:25Z Warlock[29A] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T18:36:40Z emaczen: You can't extend "built-in-classes" right? 2015-11-29T18:40:43Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:42:04Z Bike: nope 2015-11-29T18:42:09Z Bike: whatcha up to 2015-11-29T18:45:38Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T18:45:38Z roscoe_t` is now known as roscoe_tw 2015-11-29T18:49:28Z Guest80872 is now known as mrSpec 2015-11-29T18:49:39Z mrSpec is now known as mrSpec` 2015-11-29T18:50:34Z mrSpec` quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T18:50:34Z mrSpec` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:50:39Z mrSpec` is now known as mrSpec 2015-11-29T18:51:53Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:52:30Z a-reader-bot joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:53:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:54:56Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:54:59Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:55:02Z gabnet joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:57:28Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-11-29T18:58:07Z DeadTrickster: dim, artisan is a rewrite ? 2015-11-29T18:58:22Z DeadTrickster: I mean are you using it or somebody else? 2015-11-29T18:59:49Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:06:38Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:08:41Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:10:49Z dim: Artisan is from Art Obrezan, who is working with LW only IIUC 2015-11-29T19:11:21Z dim: I just made it a asdf system, and made it more portable 2015-11-29T19:11:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:11:41Z dim: (using usocket rather then LispWork thing, etc) 2015-11-29T19:12:29Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:13:10Z gabnet quit (Quit: Quitte) 2015-11-29T19:17:26Z jaykru quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-29T19:18:51Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:18:54Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-29T19:20:22Z dim: I wanted to see about using it to replace qmynd in pgloader but never had the time to do that, and I'm worried about the corner cases I had to fix in qmynd showing up again if I do... 2015-11-29T19:21:20Z LucyParsons quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T19:23:29Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:24:29Z axe joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:31:51Z axe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T19:32:08Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:35:00Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:38:26Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:41:54Z cyphase_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:41:55Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T19:46:40Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:46:41Z kumool quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-11-29T19:54:54Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-11-29T19:54:55Z Mhoram joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:55:03Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:55:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:55:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T19:55:48Z Mhoram quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T20:00:07Z 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2015-11-29T20:42:48Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:42:48Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:42:49Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:42:57Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-11-29T20:43:24Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:43:24Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:44:56Z malice joined #lisp 2015-11-29T20:45:03Z malice: Hello, what logger would you recommend me for CL? 2015-11-29T20:45:20Z malice: I'd be glad if it allowed to easily switch target(stdout, stderr, file 2015-11-29T20:45:24Z malice: ) 2015-11-29T20:47:02Z oceanpollen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-29T20:48:02Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 271 seconds) 2015-11-29T20:48:43Z DeadTrickster: malice, they all underdeveloped but you might find log4cl suitable for your needs 2015-11-29T20:49:48Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-29T20:50:38Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-29T20:51:23Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T20:51:54Z malice: 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Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.) 2015-11-29T21:48:22Z blubjr: ya hi..whats up 2015-11-29T21:48:24Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:49:39Z russian_lisper: blubjr: I'm enjoying Lisp! Very good technology, but, unfortunately, not popular 2015-11-29T21:50:17Z attila_lendvai: we wrote hu.dwim.log, mainly for log-level/compile-time to be able to go very liberal with logging statements part of which can be macroexpanded away in production code 2015-11-29T21:50:19Z Shinmera: Or maybe fortunately. 2015-11-29T21:50:29Z attila_lendvai: *hu.dwim.logger 2015-11-29T21:50:49Z russian_lisper: Shinmera: why do you think so? :) 2015-11-29T21:50:52Z Shinmera: malice: I use my own http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/ 2015-11-29T21:50:52Z nullset68 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:51:04Z attila_lendvai: otherwise it's pretty dumb. maybe a threaded/cached appender is worth mentioning that works well in a server environment 2015-11-29T21:51:36Z Walex quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T21:51:50Z Shinmera: russian_lisper: Because popularity brings with it a load of other things, a lot of which are not really good. 2015-11-29T21:52:29Z attila_lendvai: well, looking at the quality of the average human being, maybe the lack of popularity is a good sign 2015-11-29T21:52:37Z jurov quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-29T21:52:38Z Shinmera: russian_lisper: Besides which I'm happy enough just using it. I don't need others to validate my choices, so Lisp being niche is not something I see as an issue. 2015-11-29T21:53:08Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:53:12Z nnmap joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:53:18Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T21:53:34Z russian_lisper: Shinmera: hm, it's a really a kind of philosophy! 2015-11-29T21:53:39Z nnmap: is there some good explanation about how backticks work in common lisp 2015-11-29T21:53:57Z dim: ok with a very naive loop over read-lines, split-sequence and string-trim, on a known file format, cl-csv is faster than that 2015-11-29T21:54:10Z russian_lisper: attila_lendvai: well, maybe... 2015-11-29T21:54:25Z Bike: clhs ` 2015-11-29T21:54:25Z Bike: no? dang. 2015-11-29T21:54:25Z Bike: clhs 2.4.6 2015-11-29T21:54:41Z Shinmera: nnmap: What do you want to know? 2015-11-29T21:54:45Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:54:49Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:54:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2015-11-29T21:54:55Z specbot: Backquote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2015-11-29T21:55:01Z rvirding quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T21:55:01Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:55:12Z Shinmera: It was just slow. Freenode's lagging again like mad. 2015-11-29T21:55:15Z AntiSpamMeta is now known as Guest61366 2015-11-29T21:55:18Z nullset68 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T21:55:30Z Shinmera: Poor servers :( 2015-11-29T21:55:34Z blubjr: backtick is quote, comma is unquote, ,@ is unqote a list and splice it into the surrounding list, (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c '(1 2 3))) `(a ,b ,@c)) => (a 2 1 2 3) thats all there is to it 2015-11-29T21:55:39Z Bike: oh. right. 2015-11-29T21:55:39Z Bike: anyway, i think that's a pretty clear explanation. 2015-11-29T21:55:39Z Colleen____ quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-29T21:55:51Z Guest61366 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T21:55:58Z nnmap: Shinmera: for example, how do nested backquotes work? 2015-11-29T21:56:36Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T21:56:38Z nnmap: I'm thinking about the once only macro (in Practical Common Lisp: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html) 2015-11-29T21:56:46Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-11-29T21:56:55Z nnmap: I found no good explanation 2015-11-29T21:56:56Z pjb: (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c '(1 2 3))) `(a ,b ,@c ,b ,a)) #| --> (a 2 1 2 3 2 1) |# even. 2015-11-29T21:57:05Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:57:35Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:57:47Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T21:58:08Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T21:58:27Z Bike: nested backquote isn't special, it's just a backquote form that produces a form that happens to contain backquoting. 2015-11-29T21:58:27Z Bike: of course in practice it sucks to read and write. 2015-11-29T21:59:01Z nullset68 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T21:59:25Z nullset68 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T22:01:24Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:02:00Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:02:17Z shookees quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T22:03:18Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:03:46Z nnmap: Bike: but what does that DO? tell me as if i'm a compiler 2015-11-29T22:03:53Z gko joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:04:24Z SilentEcho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:04:25Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:04:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:04:40Z shookees quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T22:04:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:04:42Z Bike: okay, so you have (defmacro foo (...) (once-only ...)), right 2015-11-29T22:04:47Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:05:06Z shookees quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-11-29T22:05:26Z nnmap: Bike: (defmacro once-only ((&rest names) &body body) ... ) - yes, that one 2015-11-29T22:05:31Z Bike: the compiler expands the once-only form, so you end up with something equivalent to (defmacro foo (...) `(... `(...))) 2015-11-29T22:05:56Z Bike: then when you have (foo ...) in your code, that macro function is evaluated 2015-11-29T22:06:38Z Bike: ugh. i fucked it up. 2015-11-29T22:06:38Z Bike: okay, so you have (defmacro foo (...) (once-only ...)), as in it uses the once-only. 2015-11-29T22:06:51Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T22:07:12Z Bike: so in the course of expanding the once-only form, the compiler evaluates the once-only macro function, which is what has the nested backquotes. 2015-11-29T22:09:05Z a-reader_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:09:11Z tkd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:09:19Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:09:41Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:09:45Z nnmap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:09:49Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:09:49Z nnmap_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:10:07Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:10:31Z ivan\_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:10:39Z wooden__ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:10:41Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:10:59Z d4gg4d_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:11:29Z alms_clozure_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:11:29Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:11:36Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:11:45Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host 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2015-11-29T22:20:43Z gdmalet is now known as Guest76984 2015-11-29T22:21:49Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:21:57Z duper joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:21:59Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:21:59Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:22:38Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:23:36Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:23:51Z lxpz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:24:42Z viaken2 joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:24:47Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T22:25:40Z dim: ok so in my very limited testing SQLite is the only data source able to send data faster than PostgreSQL is able to write it... 2015-11-29T22:25:54Z dim: and the SQLite driver in use, cl-sqlite, is a CFFI thing 2015-11-29T22:26:00Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-29T22:26:19Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:26:26Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:26:37Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:26:41Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:27:16Z 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on Psn http://pastebin.com/NpPdAJwL 2015-11-29T22:45:54Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:46:00Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:46:10Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:46:41Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:46:48Z emma__ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:47:14Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:47:32Z octo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:47:57Z phf: adclick.g.doubleclick.net redirect, how droll. 2015-11-29T22:48:08Z clop joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:08Z yauz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:14Z RazWelles joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:23Z martinhath joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:25Z phf was hoping for a trojan to dissect 2015-11-29T22:48:27Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:31Z benaiah joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:48:38Z Paperman-x1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-29T22:49:21Z axion joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:49:46Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:50:46Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:51:14Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:51:40Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-11-29T22:52:15Z profess joined 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languages tends to have physiological and computable consequences that can be hardly pleasurable and/or healthy and, what's much worse, are undefined by CLHS. 2015-11-29T23:14:55Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:15:55Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:15:56Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-11-29T23:17:16Z Zotan quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T23:17:17Z abbe_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-29T23:17:17Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:17:48Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:17:59Z Robdgreat_ is now known as Robdgreat 2015-11-29T23:18:24Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-29T23:21:30Z Uptime quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T23:21:30Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:22:48Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:22:48Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:23:36Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:24:24Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:25:06Z phoe_krk: Would it be good to put (gc :full t) at the end of my .sbclrc? I just saw it reduces its RAM usage from 120 MB to 60 MB. 2015-11-29T23:25:56Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:26:30Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:26:36Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:26:49Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2015-11-29T23:28:38Z Uptime quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T23:28:38Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:28:38Z russian_lisper: good night! :) 2015-11-29T23:29:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:29:07Z russian_lisper left #lisp 2015-11-29T23:29:07Z broken_clock joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:29:27Z jozip joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:30:24Z phoe_krk: I put it at the end of swank.lisp. Gives me a result worse by 10 MBs than a manual call, but oh well, better than the default anyway. 2015-11-29T23:31:35Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:31:44Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:32:43Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:33:23Z phoe_krk: Dear #lisp, TIL that each new thread in SBCL takes only 200 kB of RAM by itself. 2015-11-29T23:33:34Z phoe_krk: (make-thread (lambda () (loop))) that is. 2015-11-29T23:33:43Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-29T23:33:48Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:33:50Z ktx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:34:27Z moei joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:37:17Z gz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:37:23Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:37:24Z gz_ is now known as gz 2015-11-29T23:38:50Z copec joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:40:12Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:42:06Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-29T23:42:15Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:43:01Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:43:26Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:44:08Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:44:26Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:45:53Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:46:48Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:47:53Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2015-11-29T23:47:53Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:48:04Z NeverDie_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:49:21Z snits joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:49:42Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-29T23:49:56Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:50:30Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:52:41Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:52:41Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:53:40Z abbe is now known as Guest37866 2015-11-29T23:57:51Z Guest7326 left #lisp 2015-11-29T23:58:04Z someone joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:58:04Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-29T23:58:37Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:59:34Z over joined #lisp 2015-11-29T23:59:35Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:01:36Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:02:05Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T00:05:53Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:06:12Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:06:12Z iddqd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:07:15Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:08:00Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:08:00Z jozip_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:08:38Z frankS2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T00:08:57Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:09:20Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:09:57Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:10:17Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:12:14Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:13:34Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:14:00Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:14:00Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2015-11-30T00:14:35Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:15:10Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:15:13Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:15:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:16:49Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:18:48Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:19:02Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:19:19Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:19:24Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:20:00Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:21:14Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:21:14Z jozip_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T00:21:16Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:21:31Z jozip_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:23:00Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:23:25Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:23:38Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-11-30T00:26:06Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:27:35Z namespace joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:27:45Z dTal joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:30:48Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:30:49Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:30:53Z larme joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:30:56Z emma__ is now known as em 2015-11-30T00:30:57Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:31:45Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:31:47Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:33:36Z gz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:34:18Z phoe_krk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T00:35:19Z namespace: Could someone kindly explain what I'm doing wrong here? 2015-11-30T00:35:22Z namespace: http://pastebin.com/1jQq0ZZe 2015-11-30T00:36:12Z iddqd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:36:15Z emma quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-30T00:36:15Z em quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-30T00:36:17Z pillton: You don't need return forms. 2015-11-30T00:36:31Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:36:33Z Bike: you misspelled "lambda" as "lamda" 2015-11-30T00:36:37Z pillton: minion: Tell namespace about PCL 2015-11-30T00:36:37Z minion: namespace: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-11-30T00:36:43Z namespace: pillton: Thank you. 2015-11-30T00:36:53Z namespace: pillton: Er, not you. 2015-11-30T00:36:56Z namespace: Bike: Thank you. 2015-11-30T00:36:59Z blubjr: lol 2015-11-30T00:37:03Z Bike: wow, harsh. 2015-11-30T00:37:19Z Bike: the return is wrong too, tho. 2015-11-30T00:37:42Z namespace: Really? I mean the map doesn't actually return the thing I want it's just an iteration construct. 2015-11-30T00:37:45Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:38:21Z Bike: you can return things without using 'return', though. 2015-11-30T00:38:33Z phadthai: also look at mapc if you don't need the result 2015-11-30T00:38:37Z blubjr: if you're not saving the result, you should use mapc instead of mapcar 2015-11-30T00:38:42Z namespace nods 2015-11-30T00:38:58Z Bike: you have "(return sequence)" but you can just have "sequence". and should, since the return is also wrong, as per the error 2015-11-30T00:38:58Z blubjr: and if you're giving the function inline anyway, i'd probably just use dolist 2015-11-30T00:39:04Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:39:14Z phadthai: loop! 2015-11-30T00:39:15Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161735 2015-11-30T00:39:16Z phadthai: :) 2015-11-30T00:39:22Z phoe_krk: phadthai: just in time I posted this 2015-11-30T00:39:32Z phoe_krk: is checking my limits in such a way a good idea? 2015-11-30T00:39:56Z namespace: blubjr: Mmm. 2015-11-30T00:40:24Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:40:58Z Bike: phoe_krk: the hey is the in-package for 2015-11-30T00:40:59Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:41:01Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T00:41:28Z phoe_krk: Bike: oh, whoops, I forgot to include (make-package :my-test-package :use (list :cl)) (in-package :my-test-package) in there 2015-11-30T00:41:49Z Bike: the in-package wouldn't matter anyway 2015-11-30T00:41:55Z Bike: just qualify it, sb-ext:gc, if you really want 2015-11-30T00:41:57Z phoe_krk: Bike: I know, but just in case 2015-11-30T00:42:07Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:42:08Z phoe_krk: Bike: I'm using trivial-garbage which calls that 2015-11-30T00:42:17Z Bike: no, i mean it's totally useless. the whole form is read before the in-package is evaluated. 2015-11-30T00:42:24Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-11-30T00:42:28Z Bike: trivial-garbage:gc then 2015-11-30T00:42:51Z phoe_krk: Bike: oh well, let's forget about the package altogether. What do you think about the idea/the code? 2015-11-30T00:43:09Z phoe_krk: The consing is to prevent the threads from being GCed. 2015-11-30T00:43:15Z Bike: i'm not sure what the point is? 2015-11-30T00:43:24Z phoe_krk: To tell me the maximum amount of threads I can handle. 2015-11-30T00:43:29Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:43:54Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:44:09Z Bike: threads don't take a constant amount of memory. make-thread copies the dynamic variable space so more of those bindings means more memory 2015-11-30T00:44:21Z Bike: it's not something you can determine very well with just empiricism 2015-11-30T00:44:45Z phoe_krk: Bike: I think I have enough memory, I'm more interested in my OS's limits 2015-11-30T00:44:59Z Bike: you should look at your OS's documentation, then 2015-11-30T00:45:34Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:45:59Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T00:46:07Z Cthulhux 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What am I missing? 2015-11-30T03:24:33Z namespace: Ah. 2015-11-30T03:24:39Z Bike: secondly, "" is a string with no characters, and (string #\Nul) is a string with one character 2015-11-30T03:24:48Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:25:11Z namespace: Was hoping Nul didn't count as a character. But *nods*. 2015-11-30T03:25:28Z Bike: strings don't have to be stored like in C 2015-11-30T03:26:00Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:26:23Z namespace uses string= instead, got it to work thanks 2015-11-30T03:26:36Z iddqd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:26:43Z Bike: even if they were, you can do char* foo = malloc(0); and get an empty string with no null 2015-11-30T03:27:09Z aap joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:27:48Z jozip__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:28:04Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:28:27Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:28:56Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:28:59Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:29:00Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2015-11-30T03:29:01Z jozip__ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:29:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2015-11-30T03:30:21Z broken_clock quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-11-30T03:30:37Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:30:54Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-11-30T03:31:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:34:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:39:47Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:42:07Z Firedancer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:42:07Z cell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:43:16Z cell joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:43:24Z cell is now known as Guest42989 2015-11-30T03:44:35Z iddqd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:46:25Z Uptime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T03:46:30Z seg joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:46:31Z iddqd joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:47:11Z Uptime- joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:48:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:48:16Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:48:35Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T03:49:44Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:50:34Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:50:49Z loke: Bike: It'f unny. You just hit one of my pet peeves, and even though I realise I'm acting like a troll of some sort, there is this irresitible desire for me to point it out (just to get it out of my system I guess) 2015-11-30T03:50:59Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:50:59Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:51:03Z Bike: as you like 2015-11-30T03:51:07Z loke: it should be: char *foo = malloc(...); 2015-11-30T03:51:35Z Bike: what, moving the asterisk? 2015-11-30T03:51:49Z Lord_of_- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:51:52Z loke: Yeah, the asterisk belongs to the variable, not the base type. 2015-11-30T03:52:13Z Bike: it compiles either way, and i know that's the style, but it doesn't make any sense to me 2015-11-30T03:52:21Z loke: My justification for that is the usual argument. The fact that this becomes problematic: 2015-11-30T03:52:26Z loke: char* foo, bar; 2015-11-30T03:52:34Z loke: vs: char *foo, bar; 2015-11-30T03:52:39Z loke: the latter being much more clear. 2015-11-30T03:53:30Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:53:30Z diginet quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:53:30Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:53:36Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:53:40Z sid_cypher completely agrees with loke there. 2015-11-30T03:53:45Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:53:55Z octo_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:54:26Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:54:38Z sid_cypher: not. 2015-11-30T03:54:44Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:54:52Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:54:54Z loke: sid_cypher: not? 2015-11-30T03:55:09Z dlowe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T03:55:13Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:55:16Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:55:46Z Bike: psych!! 2015-11-30T03:55:50Z mach joined #lisp 2015-11-30T03:55:50Z phf: so grepping places for counter examples, the only one i found is yacc.c, which has a rather idiosyncratic style. they define variables in fixed width columns. so you get char* foo\n Foobar bar\n i.e. foo and bar are aligned. so scanning the left column you get the type, scanning the right you get var 2015-11-30T03:56:08Z sid_cypher: loke: the latter has *foo and bar, why not *foo and *bar ? :) 2015-11-30T03:56:08Z namespace claps for empiricism 2015-11-30T03:56:10Z phf: and knowing is half the battle 2015-11-30T03:56:36Z loke: sid_cypher: sure. I can write: char *foo, *bar; 2015-11-30T03:56:48Z loke: sid_cypher: what would that declaration look like with Bike's style? 2015-11-30T03:56:56Z Uptime- is now known as Uptime 2015-11-30T03:57:11Z loke: perhaps this? char* foo,* bar; 2015-11-30T03:57:14Z loke: looks weird to me 2015-11-30T03:57:16Z sid_cypher: loke: char* foo; char* bar; 2015-11-30T03:57:39Z loke: Yeah, that's the usual answer you get from the star-leftists :-) 2015-11-30T03:57:45Z loke: Just evading the issue. :-) 2015-11-30T03:58:11Z Bike: and what an issue it is 2015-11-30T03:58:13Z phf: huh, plan9port source has it both ways, sometimes in same files 2015-11-30T03:58:50Z Bike: plan9's C is kind of nuts, iirc 2015-11-30T03:58:53Z sid_cypher: loke: star-leftists care about semantics much more than syntax. If C doesn't support the right declarations syntactically, it's a deficiency of C to be worked around. 2015-11-30T03:59:33Z sid_cypher: one more reason to love lisp - the preprocessor is much better :) 2015-11-30T04:00:07Z loke: sid_cypher: I'd put that up there with other failed attempts at coercing C to become something different. Together with the origina ksh sources, I guess. 2015-11-30T04:01:24Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:01:36Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:01:55Z sid_cypher: too bad it's Common Lisp channel, i'd start holy star wars. 2015-11-30T04:02:34Z phf: Bike: somehow most c that comes to mind is idiosyncratic. phk with his macros abuse, djb with a terse, almost apl'ish c, plan9 people with "we didn't like it, we changed it a little" 2015-11-30T04:02:47Z loke: Bike: speaking of your nick. This is what it looked like after my ride yesterday. 2015-11-30T04:03:08Z Bike: i mostly remember djb for writing that lovecraftian FPU abuse 2015-11-30T04:03:19Z Bike: kind of overrides any style concerns 2015-11-30T04:03:28Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T04:03:31Z loke: What is djb? 2015-11-30T04:03:48Z Bike: dj bernstein, a crypto expert 2015-11-30T04:03:55Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:04:24Z phcrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:05:08Z phcrist joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:05:51Z phf: famous for qmail and having one of those "Bernstein v. USA" crypto court cases 2015-11-30T04:05:55Z loke: Worse than the J source code? 2015-11-30T04:06:05Z loke: From the file ve.c: 2015-11-30T04:06:05Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161843 2015-11-30T04:06:52Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:07:30Z Bike: it's not macro abuse, it's that it has like 200 lines of doing semiautomatically written floating point operations on int64s 2015-11-30T04:07:35Z phf: or kona source https://raw.githubusercontent.com/kevinlawler/kona/master/src/k.c 2015-11-30T04:07:47Z pillton wants people to stop vomiting in the paste bin. 2015-11-30T04:08:28Z loke: v.c was even worse: 2015-11-30T04:08:28Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/161845 2015-11-30T04:08:57Z pillton: Is that machine generated? 2015-11-30T04:08:58Z renard_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-11-30T04:09:19Z phf: handwritten 2015-11-30T04:10:08Z Bike: curve25519, that was it. can't find the original assembly 2015-11-30T04:10:15Z pillton makes a note to send flowers to the surviving family. 2015-11-30T04:11:22Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:13:01Z octo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:14:13Z namespace: pillton: Vomiting in the paste bin? :P 2015-11-30T04:14:20Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T04:15:42Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:16:16Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:16:24Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:16:24Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2015-11-30T04:16:35Z Zotan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:17:38Z loke: namespace: Well, the J source code very closely resembles at least some kind of human waste product. 2015-11-30T04:17:54Z loke: As does the K code, even though it's in my opinion slightly more readable. 2015-11-30T04:18:36Z namespace: XD 2015-11-30T04:21:13Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:22:27Z CEnnis91 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T04:23:12Z tmtwd_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:24:07Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T04:24:09Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:26:27Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:26:39Z jozip__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:34:58Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-30T04:35:07Z jozip__ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:37:24Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:38:04Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:40:24Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:41:58Z jonh joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:42:11Z jozip__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:42:12Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:42:12Z jozip___ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:42:45Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:42:48Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:42:51Z gz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:43:54Z Quadresce` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:46:59Z jozip___ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:47:31Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:47:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-30T04:49:00Z adhoc: ah that *is* the source to J, i'd recognise that anywhere! 2015-11-30T04:50:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-11-30T04:50:27Z sid_cypher: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_smell 2015-11-30T04:50:51Z jozip___ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:53:03Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:53:36Z ktx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:54:51Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:55:09Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:55:59Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:56:12Z adhoc: sid_cypher: it was a thing in the mid 90s 2015-11-30T04:56:24Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:57:20Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-30T04:58:30Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T04:58:42Z diginet joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:58:44Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2015-11-30T04:59:47Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:00:03Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:00:10Z sweater is now known as Guest46649 2015-11-30T05:00:12Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:00:15Z sid_cypher: adhoc: what was a thing? 2015-11-30T05:00:27Z jurov quit (Excess Flood) 2015-11-30T05:00:47Z adhoc: sid_cypher: compiler designers writing C that looked like line noise 2015-11-30T05:01:08Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:02:42Z sid_cypher: adhoc: got it. kinda witnessed it through records :) 2015-11-30T05:04:01Z adhoc: also portable C, with pre-processors that churned out consistent code =P 2015-11-30T05:06:10Z pillton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T05:06:24Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:07:42Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:14:00Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:16:40Z phcrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:16:40Z dlowe joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:17:00Z jozip___ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:17:35Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:17:39Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:19:25Z gz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:20:02Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:20:59Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:21:09Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:25:39Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:26:07Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T05:28:25Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-30T05:29:00Z iddqd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:29:00Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:31:24Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:31:32Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:32:09Z jozip___ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:33:42Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:34:06Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-11-30T05:37:22Z jason_m: namespace: lamda should be lambda 2015-11-30T05:37:35Z jason_m: sorry, i was not scrolled 2015-11-30T05:37:44Z jason_m: responding to an old message 2015-11-30T05:41:06Z darlinger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:42:29Z namespace: I was about to say. :P 2015-11-30T05:45:22Z darlinger joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:45:41Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:48:23Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:50:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:51:55Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:52:39Z peterhil_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T05:53:44Z LucyParsons joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:57:28Z phcrist joined #lisp 2015-11-30T05:59:07Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-11-30T06:05:52Z drmeister: SBCL seems to be ignoring this - how do I get sbcl to load a file at startup? sbcl -load "../scraper/scraper.lisp" 2015-11-30T06:06:11Z pillton: --load 2015-11-30T06:06:30Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-30T06:06:46Z drmeister: Got it - thanks 2015-11-30T06:07:19Z namespace: drmeister: As a general *nix rule when it comes to command flags, - means a single letter argument and -- means a 'long' arguments or more than single letter argument. 2015-11-30T06:07:27Z namespace: drmeister: This isn't always true, but it's true over 90% of the time. 2015-11-30T06:07:39Z Bike: does sbcl not report unused arguments? 2015-11-30T06:07:51Z Bike: it does not. bummer. 2015-11-30T06:08:32Z drmeister: namespace: Thanks 2015-11-30T06:08:50Z drmeister: Yes, silent failures. 2015-11-30T06:09:08Z namespace: Bike: That's because SBCL handles POSIX arguments by defining some reserved ones and otherwise letting you pass whatever you want to SBCL. 2015-11-30T06:09:15Z Bike: oh. right. 2015-11-30T06:09:21Z pillton: Bike: Hmm.. What if the application wanted arguments? 2015-11-30T06:09:32Z Bike: yes, as namespace said. 2015-11-30T06:09:55Z drmeister: I'd like to load a .lisp file that loads several other .lisp files. It's not finding them because *default-pathname-defaults* isn't set properly. How would you set *d-p-d* in a portable way if I know the relative directory of the .lisp files? 2015-11-30T06:09:55Z pillton: Sorry. It appeared after I pushed enter. 2015-11-30T06:11:39Z pillton: clhs *load-file-truename* 2015-11-30T06:11:39Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for *load-file-truename*. 2015-11-30T06:11:41Z namespace: drmeister: Well as I point out in my web environment tutorial as an alternative you can add those to the asdf path. 2015-11-30T06:11:53Z pillton: Sorry. 2015-11-30T06:11:57Z pillton: clhs *load-truename* 2015-11-30T06:11:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 2015-11-30T06:11:59Z namespace: drmeister: http://jdpressman.com/2015/11/25/how-to-setup-a-common-lisp-web-environment-%28november%202015%29.html 2015-11-30T06:12:43Z namespace: So yeah, there's two ways to do it. 2015-11-30T06:13:06Z namespace: (Two explained here just now I mean, I'm sure there are more.) 2015-11-30T06:13:35Z pillton: drmeister: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html?page=1 2015-11-30T06:13:52Z drmeister: namespace: Thanks, what I'm really interested in is using sbcl to run a vanilla CL script as part of a build system. I don't want to set up a development environment or any other dependencies. 2015-11-30T06:14:04Z namespace: Ah. 2015-11-30T06:14:05Z namespace: Then you definitely want what pillton's talking about. 2015-11-30T06:14:47Z drmeister: I think *load-file-truename* is what I'm looking for. 2015-11-30T06:16:08Z pillton: drmeister: stassats comment in the above link is useful too. 2015-11-30T06:16:22Z drmeister: *load-truename* 2015-11-30T06:17:09Z pillton: drmeister: Sorry. 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2015-11-30T09:45:30Z PuercoPop: pjb: one thing that I don't like is that read-token does not work with the default readtable. But it still has been a huge boon! 2015-11-30T09:45:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T09:46:34Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T09:48:13Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-11-30T09:49:23Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T09:49:53Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-11-30T09:51:20Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: ccl-logbot loke stepnem drmeister cell sjl pok zacharias Zhivago peterhil_ ZabaQ drdo gendl marcoecc brucem iddqd swflint ktx rvirding fluter profess SAL9000 frankS2 Cymew darlinger cartwright cadadar_ DeadTrickster trig-ger Harag jlarocco freehck mvilleneuve a-reader-bot mishoo Xach myrkraverk EvW dan64 diginet Shinmera FreeBirdLjj wailord cmpitg angavrilov eazar001 Walex replcated norfumpit vlatkoB rotty flambard varjag Zotan Firedancer billstclair 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: Davidbrcz smokeink msb ineiros Cthulhux seg phryk gko CEnnis91 jonh ecraven phcrist LucyParsons PuercoPop jurov dlowe Quadrescence pillton octo_ Lord_of_Life mach CrazyEddy redline6561 Uptime aap suspirial nydel Tordek Warlock[29A] harish constantinexvi yeticry lieven em AntiSpamMeta Oddity zotherstupidguy dim larme dTal namespace GGMethos Colleen over someone snits copec ngrud pepol pjb nisstyre joga roo mikaelj yeltzooo honkfestival mtl_ ivan\ zacts 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: quasisane jtz setheus axion benaiah martinhath RazWelles yauz clop gabot eagleflo xaotuk heddwch AeroNotix salva kbtr eschulte sivoais rvchangue shifty lvh ozzloy gensym tokenrove joneshf-laptop kolko jlarocco_ nyef ahungry JuanDaugherty SHODAN ramus ivan4th minion cods jackc- White_Flame tomaw zaquest zymurgy fikusz cyberlard viaken2 lxpz duper Posterdati yang Guest76984 zerac funnel sjohnson` mood_ anunnaki_ vlnx chu Bike tessier_ failproofshark Mandus 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: dsp-_ arnsholt Robdgreat reb`````` nowhereman DGASAU`` justinmcp alms_clozure d4gg4d whartung wooden__ |3b| SilentEcho tkd_ arrsim djinni`_ smull_ vert2_ housel aeth briankrent dwchandler Tristam jself stokachu tippenein gypsydave5 skeledrew_ nopf pwned p_l _death stux|RC-only wizzo DANtheBEASTman cat_ brandonz misv chavezgu sekrit clog s00pcan lemoinem_ sulky eMBee hellekin Ober otwieracz ft wglb jackdaniel zyoung_ yrdz` hitecnologys H4ns vsync ski 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: trinitr0n low-profile PinealGlandOptic cross kjak j0ni johs DylanJ TMA micro_ moredhel russell-- ``Erik djh jsnell thomas cmatei torpig froggey cmbntr tokik jeaye voidlily ec\_ SlashLife isoraqathedh gigetoo fiddlerw2aroof eak add^_ mprelude flip214 guaqua` lpaste ircbrows- fe[nl]ix Blkt cpt_nemo Riviera joshe lispyone danlentz XachX antoszka ggherdov victor_lowther_ oskarth lancetw faheem___ asedeno Neet n2kra_ z0d NhanH jdz scymtym_ wolf_moz- musegarden3 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: splittist_ l1x marienz lokulin blubjr rtoym_ ssake_ sytse_ pootler wyan j_king_ ferada MikeSeth sfa_ ryan_vw_ tstc` samebcha1e john-mcaleely oGMo luis` les` trn __main__ haasn trystero specbot ck_ zickzackv mrSpec troydm easye joast sigjuice farhaven dougk_ Bugboy1028 HDurer sid_cypher bgs100 Khisanth bb010g PlasmaStar arpunk josteink abaugher xristos mathrick akkad phf lnostdal_ kjeldahl_ jayne sword edran phadthai NaNDude vhost- adhoc scymtym cibs grouzen 2015-11-30T09:56:04Z names: araujo dilated_dinosaur roscoe_tw cpc26 baboon` killmaster Fade Lord_Nightmare cyraxjoe InvalidCo synchromesh yvm Meow-J agumonkey jason_m theBlackDragon mtd_ tessier Oladon Jesin vaporatorius _sjs sshirokov wemeetagain aerique hyoyoung finnrobi sbryant MoALTz nightfly sellout segmond kalzz taij33n dmiles_afk schoppenhauer hratsimihah zbigniew Patzy 2015-11-30T09:56:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T09:56:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T09:56:44Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-30T09:57:39Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T09:58:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:00:34Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:01:27Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: pong 2015-11-30T10:01:34Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:02:19Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:02:39Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:04:21Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:07:59Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:08:49Z pjb: PuercoPop: because I want to mean the symbol named "T", not the default truth value. 2015-11-30T10:09:39Z pjb: PuercoPop: notice for example, that (case e ((t) 1) ((nil) 0)) is equivalent to (cond ((eq 't e) 1) ((eq 'nil e) 0)), ie. t and nil are not evaluated in the CASE clauses. 2015-11-30T10:11:32Z PuercoPop: pjb: makes sense, thanks 2015-11-30T10:11:40Z jasom joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:12:26Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:13:53Z pjb: minion: memo for phoe_krk: In a file, (make-package :my-test-package :use (list :cl)) (in-package :my-test-package) cannot work, because make-package is a function. 2015-11-30T10:13:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe_krk when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-11-30T10:13:54Z octo_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:16:17Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:16:52Z tkd_ is now known as tkd 2015-11-30T10:18:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-30T10:18:41Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:18:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2015-11-30T10:18:41Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:19:55Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:20:29Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:20:33Z octo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:20:56Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:21:24Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:28:21Z LucyParsons quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-30T10:28:21Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T10:31:20Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:31:29Z sakalli joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:33:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:37:12Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:38:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:40:34Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:41:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:42:41Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:46:18Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:47:14Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:48:30Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:48:30Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:54:19Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:56:30Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-30T10:56:57Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T10:56:57Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:06:45Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T11:08:14Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:11:31Z diginet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:11:59Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:12:27Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:12:44Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:13:14Z diginet joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:13:20Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:13:29Z DGASAU`` is now known as DGASAU 2015-11-30T11:15:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T11:18:10Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:19:04Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:19:05Z newcup joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:20:51Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:22:14Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T11:22:49Z luis` is now known as luis 2015-11-30T11:24:31Z gz_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:25:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:25:40Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:26:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:30:39Z grindhold joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:31:49Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-11-30T11:32:16Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I am not the author. 2015-11-30T12:21:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:21:30Z XachX: The author would appreciate it I suspect 2015-11-30T12:22:09Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:22:20Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:22:38Z flip214: well, "ARRAY LAYOUTS FOR COMPARISON-BASED SEARCHING" says Paul-Virak Khuong† and Pat Morin‡ 2015-11-30T12:23:03Z flip214: being in first place I'd thought I ask you, especially as it's quite easy around here ;) 2015-11-30T12:23:39Z flip214: looks like it won't matter much. 2015-11-30T12:23:48Z flip214: thanks for the interesting topics on you blog! 2015-11-30T12:24:08Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:24:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T12:24:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:27:35Z cmbntr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:28:20Z cmbntr joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:28:59Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:32:01Z Xach: first place? 2015-11-30T12:32:06Z Xach is so confused 2015-11-30T12:36:24Z flip214: -ENOCOFFEE 2015-11-30T12:39:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:39:44Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2015-11-30T12:39:44Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:39:50Z sytse_ is now known as sytse 2015-11-30T12:40:51Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T12:42:45Z Robdgreat: D: 2015-11-30T12:42:47Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:42:50Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:42:59Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:44:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:46:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:47:38Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:50:03Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:50:29Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:54:19Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:54:43Z Cymew: flip214: Have you found that post on Planet Lisp? Xach does not write those posts, it's just an aggregator. 2015-11-30T12:56:27Z znpy` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-11-30T12:56:56Z Xach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T12:57:17Z ecraven: now you've offended him :p 2015-11-30T12:58:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:58:42Z seg joined #lisp 2015-11-30T12:59:44Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:00:11Z flip214: ah, right. it's *me* who's confused. sorry about that! XachX != pvk. 2015-11-30T13:01:31Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:02:11Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:02:21Z flip214 ponders whether that is already alzhauser (sic) or just plain old age.... 2015-11-30T13:02:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:04:19Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:07:03Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:07:29Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:08:04Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:12:15Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T13:12:46Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:13:20Z abaugher joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:16:17Z znpy` joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:19:22Z lnostdal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:23:59Z iddqd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-30T13:27:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:32:54Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:33:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:33:42Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:33:42Z renard__ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:33:42Z renard__ is now known as renard_ 2015-11-30T13:34:17Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:35:56Z kolko joined #lisp 2015-11-30T13:36:20Z a-reader-bot is now known as anti-freeze 2015-11-30T13:40:21Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:40:21Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic) 2015-11-30T13:40:51Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: It will already use /etc/mime.types if it exists on the system. It only falls back to the shipped one if it can't find any. 2015-11-30T13:40:51Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-30T13:41:24Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: And no, the mime type database is built at load-time. 2015-11-30T13:41:44Z Shinmera: DeadTrickster: After that the file is no longer needed, unless you happen to run build-mime-db at some point. 2015-11-30T13:41:46Z seg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:43:38Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T13:44:05Z abaugher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: ccl-logbot sjl attila_lendvai knicklux The_Schmidt rpg mnoonan edgar-rft znpy` Cthulhux lnostdal nydel cadadar_ Tordek sdothum Davidbrcz stepnem algae abaugher_ LiamH grouzen gaya- rvirding gendl billstclair warweasle kolko Xach Nikotiini Subfusc PuercoPop freehck` DGASAU gz_ newcup papachan knobo sakalli phoe_krk fluter sz0 jasom drmeister cell pok zacharias peterhil_ ZabaQ drdo marcoecc brucem swflint ktx profess SAL9000 frankS2 Cymew darlinger cartwright 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: DeadTrickster trig-ger jlarocco mvilleneuve anti-freeze mishoo myrkraverk Shinmera wailord cmpitg angavrilov eazar001 norfumpit vlatkoB rotty flambard varjag Firedancer smokeink ineiros phryk gko CEnnis91 jonh phcrist jurov dlowe pillton Lord_of_Life mach CrazyEddy redline6561 Uptime aap suspirial Warlock[29A] constantinexvi yeticry lieven em AntiSpamMeta Oddity zotherstupidguy dim larme dTal namespace GGMethos Colleen over someone snits copec ngrud pepol 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: nisstyre joga roo mikaelj yeltzooo honkfestival mtl_ ivan\ quasisane jtz setheus axion benaiah martinhath RazWelles yauz clop gabot eagleflo xaotuk heddwch AeroNotix salva kbtr eschulte sivoais rvchangue shifty lvh ozzloy gensym tokenrove joneshf-laptop jlarocco_ nyef ahungry JuanDaugherty SHODAN ramus ivan4th minion cods jackc- White_Flame djinni`_ smull_ vert2_ housel aeth briankrent dwchandler Tristam jself stokachu tippenein gypsydave5 skeledrew_ nopf 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: pwned p_l _death stux|RC-only wizzo DANtheBEASTman cat_ brandonz misv chavezgu sekrit clog s00pcan lemoinem_ sulky eMBee hellekin Ober otwieracz ft wglb jackdaniel zyoung_ yrdz` hitecnologys H4ns vsync ski trinitr0n low-profile PinealGlandOptic cross kjak j0ni johs DylanJ TMA micro_ moredhel russell-- ``Erik djh jsnell thomas cmatei torpig froggey tokik jeaye voidlily ec\_ SlashLife isoraqathedh gigetoo fiddlerw2aroof eak add^_ flip214 guaqua` lpaste 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: ircbrows- fe[nl]ix Blkt cpt_nemo Riviera joshe lispyone danlentz XachX antoszka ggherdov victor_lowther_ oskarth lancetw faheem___ asedeno Neet n2kra_ z0d NhanH jdz scymtym_ wolf_moz- musegarden3 splittist_ l1x marienz lokulin blubjr rtoym_ ssake_ sytse pootler wyan j_king_ ferada MikeSeth sfa_ ryan_vw_ tstc` samebcha1e john-mcaleely oGMo luis les` trn __main__ haasn trystero specbot ck_ zickzackv mrSpec troydm easye joast sigjuice farhaven dougk_ 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: Bugboy1028 HDurer sid_cypher bgs100 Khisanth bb010g PlasmaStar arpunk josteink xristos mathrick akkad phf kjeldahl_ jayne sword edran phadthai NaNDude vhost- adhoc scymtym cibs dilated_dinosaur roscoe_tw baboon` killmaster Fade Lord_Nightmare cyraxjoe InvalidCo yvm Meow-J theBlackDragon mtd_ tessier Oladon vaporatorius _sjs sshirokov wemeetagain aerique hyoyoung finnrobi sbryant nightfly sellout segmond kalzz taij33n dmiles_afk schoppenhauer hratsimihah 2015-11-30T15:33:24Z names: zbigniew Patzy arrsim tkd SilentEcho |3b| whartung d4gg4d alms_clozure justinmcp nowhereman reb`````` Robdgreat arnsholt dsp-_ Mandus failproofshark tessier_ chu vlnx anunnaki_ mood_ sjohnson` funnel zerac Guest76984 yang Posterdati duper lxpz viaken2 cyberlard fikusz zymurgy zaquest tomaw 2015-11-30T15:33:41Z fe[nl]ix: series can do that pretty easily :) 2015-11-30T15:33:42Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:34:09Z katco joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:34:14Z msb joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:34:22Z diginet joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:35:18Z rpg: Also, I found that the code was quite brittle to reorganization. Because it's a macro, if I lifted one piece of code out as a sub-routine, suddenly I was creating a generator, which was a very heavy thing to do. Performance would unexpectedly go to hell. 2015-11-30T15:35:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:35:19Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-30T15:35:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:35:29Z replcated joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:35:42Z grindhold joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:35:51Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:36:33Z octo_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:36:58Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:37:36Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:37:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:38:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:38:07Z dlowe: it's a pity no one has made an implementation-native version of series 2015-11-30T15:38:07Z warweasle: Strange...when I create a function from the repl, function-lambda-expression doesn't return the whole form, just a nil... 2015-11-30T15:38:19Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:38:42Z warweasle: Oh...it has to be defuned not lambda'ed. But describe can find it just fine. 2015-11-30T15:39:00Z dlowe: the weird "DSL compiler" thing of the reference library is just too unpredictable 2015-11-30T15:40:53Z Zotan joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:41:17Z seg joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:41:31Z warweasle: Hmmm.. It looks like there is an *inspect-fun* 2015-11-30T15:41:49Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T15:42:07Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: in what sense ? 2015-11-30T15:42:35Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:43:19Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: In terms of performance and shadowing hacks. A version of SERIES with poor performance is pretty trivial to make. 2015-11-30T15:44:19Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:44:29Z dlowe: I'm surprised that it fails the readability test, though. I would have expected the opposite. 2015-11-30T15:44:42Z sweater is now known as Guest57980 2015-11-30T15:44:53Z vakor joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:45:10Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:45:16Z fe[nl]ix: I guess it's a matter of getting used to it 2015-11-30T15:45:17Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-30T15:45:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:45:36Z fe[nl]ix: I always found it more readable than the alternatives for complicated loops 2015-11-30T15:49:00Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:49:40Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:49:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T15:50:06Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T15:50:14Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:51:00Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:51:12Z imNoWizard joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:52:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:52:39Z cell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T15:53:30Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T15:53:52Z cell joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:54:42Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-11-30T15:55:09Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-11-30T15:55:34Z redline6561 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T15:57:36Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, I have an sbcl specific function which returns a function's source. 2015-11-30T15:57:54Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:03:04Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:03:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:04:52Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:05:37Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-11-30T16:06:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T16:06:42Z cagmz quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-30T16:08:40Z loke joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:11:40Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:12:58Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:15:10Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:16:03Z xantoz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:16:31Z xantoz: hiya. what's the in-fashion package for doing simple web stuff, also what's good for interfacing to mysql? 2015-11-30T16:17:53Z xantoz: I'm going to be mostly generating simple xml documents. Sessions might be neccesary, eventually. It's for a course in XML and I'd like to use something else than PHP. 2015-11-30T16:18:34Z dlowe: xantoz: cxml and cl-sql have been pretty good to me 2015-11-30T16:18:47Z xantoz: (it's going to be transformed using XSLT to xhtml and other formats later, don't know if I'm going to do that server-side or browser-side) 2015-11-30T16:18:54Z warweasle: http://paste.lisp.org/+3H60 2015-11-30T16:19:05Z warweasle: sbcl specific get-function-source 2015-11-30T16:19:10Z xantoz: dlowe: i'd be fine just generating the xml as strings, though, as I'm not going to be reading any. 2015-11-30T16:19:23Z dlowe: xantoz: that's how you end up with invalid xml :p 2015-11-30T16:19:35Z xantoz: true 2015-11-30T16:19:46Z xantoz: I have a DTD... 2015-11-30T16:20:22Z dlowe: The problem with XML is that it looks simple and hand-editable, but it's actually fairly complex and error-prone to get right 2015-11-30T16:20:46Z dlowe: Sure, you can catch problems in testing, then. 2015-11-30T16:20:59Z xantoz: ah, yes. I suppose cxml comes with all the escaping functions I'd want? 2015-11-30T16:21:38Z dlowe: Sure. I would encourage, as a strategy, in any language, to construct your XML DOM and then output it that way, though. 2015-11-30T16:21:41Z xantoz: what server is good? I've taken a glance at Hunchentoot thus far. 2015-11-30T16:21:55Z dlowe: Hunchentoot is the current standard. 2015-11-30T16:22:17Z xantoz: so I'll have a go with cxml + cl-sql + hunchentoot then, thanks. 2015-11-30T16:22:25Z trystero quit (Quit: trystero) 2015-11-30T16:22:42Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:23:02Z dlowe: np. see you around. 2015-11-30T16:23:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:23:50Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-11-30T16:23:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:24:02Z atgreen_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:24:10Z ane joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:25:06Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:26:10Z xantoz: btw, quicklisp is still the favoured package manager, right? 2015-11-30T16:26:40Z dlowe: xantoz: yes, it is 2015-11-30T16:26:57Z sjohnson` is now known as sjohnson 2015-11-30T16:27:54Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:29:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:29:18Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:32:24Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:33:00Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-11-30T16:33:42Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:33:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:37:14Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:37:43Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:37:50Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:38:11Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:38:33Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:38:35Z xantoz joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:38:39Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:39:14Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:39:37Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:40:21Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:40:35Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:42:00Z m0li joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:44:15Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:46:53Z profess joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:47:03Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:48:55Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:50:46Z Guest57980 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T16:54:37Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:56:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:57:30Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-11-30T16:57:58Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-11-30T17:01:29Z AtomicSinner joined #lisp 2015-11-30T17:03:42Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2015-11-30T19:12:45Z blubjr: jasom: theres an appendix in cltl2 2015-11-30T19:12:56Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-11-30T19:13:02Z fe[nl]ix: it just needs some adjustments since it hasn't changed much in 25 years 2015-11-30T19:13:19Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: none taken; this was really more of an experiment than something ever intended to be used 2015-11-30T19:13:20Z fe[nl]ix: which is in itself amazing :) 2015-11-30T19:13:38Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: I'll adopt it 2015-11-30T19:14:03Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: might want to see where Xach is collecting it from 2015-11-30T19:15:13Z fe[nl]ix: git://git.code.sf.net/p/series/series 2015-11-30T19:15:15Z cross joined #lisp 2015-11-30T19:15:55Z imNoWizard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T19:16:52Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2015-11-30T19:17:02Z fe[nl]ix: I'll ask Raymond Toy about it, he's the current maintainer 2015-11-30T19:17:05Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-30T19:20:14Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T19:20:18Z 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You may want to checkout #lispgames as well 2015-11-30T20:15:12Z oleo: is sbcl already ported to arm ? 2015-11-30T20:15:23Z jasom: oleo: yes 2015-11-30T20:15:29Z oleo: ecl already is, i just wonder 2015-11-30T20:15:30Z h0wl3vvd: oh 2015-11-30T20:15:31Z oleo: ah ok 2015-11-30T20:15:35Z h0wl3vvd: its about common ok 2015-11-30T20:15:39Z h0wl3vvd left #lisp 2015-11-30T20:15:40Z PuercoPop: jasom: you have a blog that requires login? https://phab.jasom.org/w/blog/slime_as_a_debugger/ 2015-11-30T20:15:46Z jasom: oleo: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 2015-11-30T20:16:03Z jasom: PuercoPop: the post was unfinished so I hid it; where did you get the link from? 2015-11-30T20:16:20Z oleo: fine! 2015-11-30T20:16:36Z vertreko joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:16:50Z PuercoPop: from the arc config in your itertools 2015-11-30T20:17:20Z jasom: PuercoPop: ah 2015-11-30T20:17:42Z jasom: PuercoPop: I made it visible if you want to read the draft 2015-11-30T20:18:51Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:22:10Z Guest57980 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:22:16Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T20:22:38Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:23:23Z macie left #lisp 2015-11-30T20:23:31Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-11-30T20:24:08Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:24:25Z PuercoPop: jasom: if anything it has a 2015-11-30T20:24:48Z PuercoPop: misleading title. Slime for non-emacs users would be a better one 2015-11-30T20:26:52Z PuercoPop: And maybe quickproject is drifting from the topic a little. But you make a good point about not needing to 'learn' emacs. Good work in progress, Hope you finish it someday. 2015-11-30T20:26:57Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:27:51Z jasom: PuercoPop: Good point on the title. I disagree that it's drifting from the topic; ASDF is essential if your editor and your runtime are not communicating 2015-11-30T20:28:28Z jasom: and quickproject is one way to delay learning the boilerplate required for asdf 2015-11-30T20:29:16Z jasom: the whole point of this is to limit the number of things a lisp newbie needs to learn; today I use emacs as my editor for lisp and agree that it is superior 2015-11-30T20:31:11Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T20:32:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:33:37Z mordocai: jasom: I was just about to say that taking that and migrating it to http://articulate-lisp.com might be a good idea. Just found that the site was down though, tweeted the author. 2015-11-30T20:33:45Z mordocai: Not necessarily you doing that btw, but someone 2015-11-30T20:35:41Z Guest57980 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:35:50Z InvalidCo: that looks actually like a great wobsite 2015-11-30T20:35:51Z peterhil_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:35:55Z InvalidCo: judging from the google cache 2015-11-30T20:36:28Z mordocai: Yeah, it is a work in progress but aims to do basically what jasom is trying to do in his blog post 2015-11-30T20:36:36Z mordocai: Should be back up very shortly, author is working on it 2015-11-30T20:37:03Z InvalidCo: cool 2015-11-30T20:37:05Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:37:06Z nyef: ... articulate lisp is used for programming robotic limbs, isn't it? 2015-11-30T20:37:17Z nyef: Or maybe speech synthesis... 2015-11-30T20:37:28Z mordocai: Well, rather than limit it is just trying to explain some stuff newbies need to know that isn't well explained elsewhere. 2015-11-30T20:37:51Z Bicyclidine: don't get me excited about g-code replacements 2015-11-30T20:37:56Z mordocai: nyef: Possibly, the name is meant in the general english usage not to be specific to a lisp implementation. I didn't choose it, I just help out :P 2015-11-30T20:38:20Z eni joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:38:27Z PuercoPop: jasom: I see your point. The thing that to start one could write everything in one file and later learn to deal with packages and systems. Doesn't help that other languages call their equivalent of ASDF systems packages. But imho it is introducing stuff that is not needing at the start and complicates things. I may be wrong. 2015-11-30T20:38:28Z nyef: mordocai: I'm making a play on words here, on "articulation". 2015-11-30T20:38:40Z InvalidCo: quickproject is also great 2015-11-30T20:38:44Z jasom: PuercoPop: I'll think about that 2015-11-30T20:39:10Z InvalidCo: maybe would benefit from something like (quickproject:add-dependency "alexandria") 2015-11-30T20:39:31Z mordocai: nyef: Got it, missed that. Sorry, doing multiple things "at once" 2015-11-30T20:40:32Z Bicyclidine: i think quickproject just writes out files line by line right now, so add-dependency would be kind of a pain. maybe you could rewrite it to keep all the code in sexps and add a quickproject:write... 2015-11-30T20:40:48Z InvalidCo: yeah, just now looking at the source 2015-11-30T20:41:34Z Bicyclidine: hell, maybe you could just have the asdf components and write a nice write method. 2015-11-30T20:41:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:42:00Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:42:59Z InvalidCo: maybe update-project and read-project 2015-11-30T20:43:14Z InvalidCo: then some convenience functions 2015-11-30T20:43:34Z Bicyclidine: at that point you might as well just throw it into the ide while you're at it 2015-11-30T20:43:38Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:44:13Z InvalidCo: I just might 2015-11-30T20:44:27Z InvalidCo: but elisp isn't really my thing 2015-11-30T20:45:16Z Bicyclidine: i mean, if you wrote it all in CL it would be like M-x quickproject-add-dependency just does (swank-call '(quickproject:add-dependency ...)) 2015-11-30T20:45:32Z InvalidCo: yeah 2015-11-30T20:46:04Z InvalidCo: does not really warrant another keyboard shortcut, methinks 2015-11-30T20:46:18Z tobel joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:47:36Z InvalidCo: but this also raises the troubling question: is it sane to write lisp code to write lisp code into text files? 2015-11-30T20:48:13Z Bicyclidine: of course it is, have you seen the pretty printer 2015-11-30T20:48:27Z InvalidCo: thanks for your reassurance 2015-11-30T20:48:27Z Bicyclidine: that's what it's for, y'know 2015-11-30T20:48:31Z nyef: Bicyclidine: No, that's for writing PASCAL code into text files. d-: 2015-11-30T20:48:37Z tobel left #lisp 2015-11-30T20:48:51Z InvalidCo: I guess it'd be a nice monday night hack to add stuff like add-dependency and add-export to qp 2015-11-30T20:51:11Z yvm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:53:12Z InvalidCo: it'd require some sort of magic to know which project you are currently working on 2015-11-30T20:53:25Z InvalidCo: perhaps just the latest one you fiddled with 2015-11-30T20:53:33Z mordocai: http://articulate-lisp.com is back up for anyone who cares. Disk full error on the author's vps I think :P 2015-11-30T20:53:33Z PuercoPop: InvalidCo: https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project has a depends-on keyword but don't know if it is exposed 2015-11-30T20:54:03Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:55:38Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:55:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T20:56:13Z InvalidCo: src/create/actually-create-project.lisp 2015-11-30T20:56:14Z InvalidCo: :) 2015-11-30T20:56:26Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-11-30T20:58:37Z Mon_Ouie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T20:58:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-11-30T21:00:09Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-30T21:01:44Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-11-30T21:02:08Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T21:03:46Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-11-30T21:53:48Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-11-30T21:55:48Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T21:56:04Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-11-30T21:57:50Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T21:57:53Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T22:00:50Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-11-30T22:02:14Z cell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:03:18Z namespace quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-11-30T22:03:40Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:04:25Z cell joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:04:38Z Viaken: mordocai: That site looks nice. 2015-11-30T22:04:40Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:06:05Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:09:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:12:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-30T22:15:36Z mordocai: Viaken: Thanks! It needs a lot more content (like better implementation comparisons) but has some info that seemed hard to find elsewhere. I did some design work and minor content work but most of it was done by other people and it is hosted by paul nathan. 2015-11-30T22:18:49Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:21:38Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:22:18Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:22:30Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:23:58Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T22:35:56Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:36:13Z xificurC quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-11-30T22:36:25Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T22:39:12Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:42:47Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T22:52:33Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-30T22:52:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T22:56:15Z mrottenkolber: What site? 2015-11-30T23:00:23Z mordocai: mrottenkolber: http://articulate-lisp.com 2015-11-30T23:01:51Z arnaudga quit (Quit: Quitte) 2015-11-30T23:03:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:03:31Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-11-30T23:04:58Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T23:05:25Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:06:44Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-11-30T23:09:43Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:09:58Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:11:42Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:12:39Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-11-30T23:13:01Z PuercoPop: pjb: emailed you a patch for your reader 2015-11-30T23:15:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:19:19Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:19:44Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:21:16Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:24:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-11-30T23:25:06Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:25:34Z AtomicSinner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:25:35Z oceanpollen joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:26:51Z AtomicSinner joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:27:28Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-30T23:30:20Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:31:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:33:08Z akkad left #lisp 2015-11-30T23:33:30Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:35:06Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:35:09Z mrottenkolber: Can a method specialize on a type (e.g. DEFTYPE)? 2015-11-30T23:35:22Z plertrood quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:35:27Z pjb: mrottenkolber: nope. 2015-11-30T23:35:30Z pjb: only on classes. 2015-11-30T23:35:41Z mrottenkolber: Meh. 2015-11-30T23:35:52Z pjb: types and classes are two entirely different things. 2015-11-30T23:36:14Z pjb: You can also specialize on specific objects (with eql specializers). 2015-11-30T23:36:20Z pillton: mrottenkolber: I'm working on something that can. 2015-11-30T23:37:20Z mrottenkolber: pillton: Well, I am usually not a big user of CLOS, I thought this time I had a legitimate use case but... ETYPECASE will do then. :) 2015-11-30T23:38:18Z pjb: what types are you concerned with? 2015-11-30T23:38:27Z pjb: also, you could wrap your data in classes. 2015-11-30T23:39:02Z pjb: (defclass integer-class () ((value :initarg :value :type integer))) (defclass fixnum-class (integer-class) ((value :initarg :value :type fixnum))) 2015-11-30T23:39:26Z Guest57980 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:39:34Z phf: o_O 2015-11-30T23:40:08Z mrottenkolber: I have defined a type CALL as a list whose car designates a function. 2015-11-30T23:40:20Z pjb: (defclass odd-integer-class (integer-class) ((value :initarg :value :type (and integer (satisfies oddp))))) 2015-11-30T23:40:27Z pillton: You should be able to dispatch on integers. Just not a subset. 2015-11-30T23:40:46Z blubjr: dont built in types all have class wrappers already 2015-11-30T23:40:51Z pjb: mrottenkolber: yep, CALLs are definitely objects. 2015-11-30T23:40:56Z pjb: You should define a proper class for them. 2015-11-30T23:41:04Z pjb: sexps are only external syntax for calls. 2015-11-30T23:41:12Z mrottenkolber: No I shouldn't 2015-11-30T23:41:28Z pjb: for example, you could write: f(x) or x->f() instead of (f x) for the same call of f applied to x. 2015-11-30T23:41:35Z pjb: Yes, you definitely must. 2015-11-30T23:41:36Z mrottenkolber: `(list ,(foo bar)) evaluates to a call and thats fine. 2015-11-30T23:41:38Z phf: pjb: is that theoretical, or you have that pattern somewhere in use, fixnum-class, odd-integer-class? 2015-11-30T23:41:53Z pjb: phf: read above. 2015-11-30T23:44:20Z phf: pjb: you mean mrottenkolber question? i was curious if you have that specific pattern of wrappin numbers used in com.informatimago. i'm weirded out by the idea and thought that maybe you have some sample code where that's been put to test 2015-11-30T23:44:21Z Guest57980 joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:44:54Z pjb: phf: nope, not in the exact case for integer fixnums odd-integers. 2015-11-30T23:45:05Z pjb: Notice already that integer is a system class. 2015-11-30T23:45:20Z pjb: But the pattern of using wrapper class is a common pattern. 2015-11-30T23:47:01Z AtomicCreep joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:47:02Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:47:07Z agumonkey quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-11-30T23:47:08Z grouzen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-11-30T23:47:58Z AtomicSinner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:48:13Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:50:37Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:50:38Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-11-30T23:51:19Z phf: yeah, last i saw it was in ffi code, where you wrap ffi struct pointer, and have methods wrap c functions that manipulate the pointed struct. useful for adding finalizers for example. but i'm yet to see it in that sort of purely boxing case. might be useful when you want to cary unit with the value, or a subrange. sop in static languages of course, but.. 2015-11-30T23:51:42Z AtomicCreep quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-11-30T23:52:10Z phf: hmm, ok, i think i answered my own confusion 2015-11-30T23:53:31Z AtomicSinner joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:54:22Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-11-30T23:56:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-11-30T23:56:55Z pjb: Indeed, that pattern is often used with foreign data. 2015-11-30T23:57:26Z pjb: But it can be used in mode facade or adapter too.