2015-10-01T00:06:23Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:06:48Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I could add a tag named "release", that's about the simplest thing that could work with your current flow 2015-10-01T00:08:09Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T00:09:26Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:11:01Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:15:56Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T00:16:52Z katco: White_Flame: k ty 2015-10-01T00:18:21Z katco: White_Flame: so if i had a method that actually went out and did some network access, get- would be appropriate? 2015-10-01T00:18:33Z katco: s/method/function 2015-10-01T00:18:41Z White_Flame: I'd probably use fetch- 2015-10-01T00:19:04Z White_Flame: unless you want it to be transparent to the programmer's design decisions 2015-10-01T00:19:22Z katco: White_Flame: hm, ok. so if it's just returning something from memory (i.e. a "property"), it's just the name. fetch is for retrieval, get- is for what then? 2015-10-01T00:19:51Z White_Flame: no, a simple read & return is get-, read/write accessor is the plain name, fetch- does work to get something 2015-10-01T00:19:57Z White_Flame: at least in my personal unenforced use 2015-10-01T00:21:40Z katco: White_Flame: ok ty for the input :) that sounds sane to me 2015-10-01T00:22:35Z katco: White_Flame: what about something that does (format t "~a" foo) ? 2015-10-01T00:22:53Z katco: White_Flame: i.e. it builds a string for you 2015-10-01T00:22:55Z White_Flame: depends on why it does that 2015-10-01T00:23:02Z katco: White_Flame: it's doing work, but nothing substantial 2015-10-01T00:23:06Z White_Flame: format t is outputting, not returning 2015-10-01T00:23:07Z katco: White_Flame: in my case it's just building a url 2015-10-01T00:23:12Z katco: White_Flame: oops, nil then 2015-10-01T00:23:31Z White_Flame: I really don't think much about it 2015-10-01T00:23:36Z White_Flame: I guess I would tend to use a verb for that 2015-10-01T00:24:10Z katco: White_Flame: yeah, usually i don't think too much about this, but i figure it's better than not to establish good habits as i'm learning CL 2015-10-01T00:24:22Z White_Flame: if you're learning, you're going to have to unlearn & change anyway 2015-10-01T00:24:28Z resttime: I think you're getting a bit "too" caught up in naming convention 2015-10-01T00:24:28Z White_Flame: so don't worrya bout it 2015-10-01T00:24:43Z katco: kk ty White_Flame and resttime 2015-10-01T00:24:46Z White_Flame: the only real naming conventions is *special-vars*, +constants+, etc 2015-10-01T00:24:50Z katco: yeah 2015-10-01T00:24:58Z resttime: I used fetch for a method that retrieves something over the internet 2015-10-01T00:25:03Z White_Flame: and-using-hyphens-without-camel-case 2015-10-01T00:25:15Z katco: yeah i have all that down 2015-10-01T00:25:22Z resttime: But not by "convention" just reeaching same conclusion as White_Flame 2015-10-01T00:25:36Z katco nods 2015-10-01T00:26:11Z resttime: Working with Common Lisp enough you'll naturally tend to write similar convention I would say 2015-10-01T00:27:27Z katco: cool :) 2015-10-01T00:27:39Z katco: you guys might be interested to know 2015-10-01T00:27:48Z katco: attended strange loop last weekend 2015-10-01T00:27:53Z White_Flame: oh, and the other major convention is indentation. Use emacs' indentation 2015-10-01T00:27:53Z resttime: Though if your "really" want to know a kind of "style" at least: https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 2015-10-01T00:27:55Z katco: and we were able to get like 30 people in a room talking about CL 2015-10-01T00:28:03Z katco: there was a lot more interest than anticipated 2015-10-01T00:28:11Z resttime: They have a section for "Naming" if you scroll down 2015-10-01T00:28:18Z katco: resttime: awesome ty 2015-10-01T00:28:58Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T00:35:43Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:36:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T00:37:11Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:39:19Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:39:42Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:45:58Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:48:20Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:55:00Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:55:20Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T00:57:11Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-01T00:58:15Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T01:04:48Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: tag don't work - there was a discussion recently: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/quicklisp/Xbl80rX0Bv8 2015-10-01T01:05:33Z antonv: but for a repo owner it's not very different, branch or tag 2015-10-01T01:05:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T01:07:24Z antonv: I even googled for you just now how to mergin in a single command, instead of explicit switch to branch 'checkout release; merge master; checkout master' 2015-10-01T01:08:07Z antonv: Here is a nice suggestion, how to replece these three commands with a single 'git push' : http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3672073/git-merge-to-another-branch 2015-10-01T01:10:37Z antonv: And it's a somewhat popular practice, to have a dev branch, and keep master as a release, I use it for some of my work 2015-10-01T01:11:00Z antonv: So, branch might be a solution, to publish things to QL automatically 2015-10-01T01:13:06Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T01:14:26Z Xach: I can also write a small amount of necessary code to find the latest release URL and fetch it. 2015-10-01T01:14:36Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:16:51Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:18:33Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T01:30:36Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T01:38:28Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T01:41:03Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:41:52Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:50:30Z aap joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:51:09Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T01:54:42Z loke: Good morning Lisp 2015-10-01T01:56:41Z Xach: hello loke 2015-10-01T01:57:39Z loke: Anything exciting going on? 2015-10-01T01:59:19Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:00:42Z Xach is trying to make a new wigflip.com for the new decade 2015-10-01T02:01:03Z loke: What is that? Never seen that sitee before. 2015-10-01T02:01:34Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:01:38Z Xach: loke: that is a site i made in 2005 to share silly web graphic amusements. it got mildly popular over time and i sold it last year. 2015-10-01T02:01:47Z Xach: it is powered by common lisp. 2015-10-01T02:01:52Z loke: Oh, nice. 2015-10-01T02:01:57Z Xach: i still have the itch to make silly web graphic amusements but no outlet. 2015-10-01T02:03:15Z phf: 2005! damn, time flies 2015-10-01T02:05:17Z phf: used to be my default link to give to "LISP? how's recursion useful on WEB?" people 2015-10-01T02:06:18Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:07:44Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:10:34Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T02:13:02Z antonv: guys, don't you feel jealous sometimes that functional programming becomes mainstream? 2015-10-01T02:13:23Z antonv: even C++ and Java have lambda functions today 2015-10-01T02:13:55Z namra joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:14:01Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T02:14:27Z loke: antonv: Why jealous? I'd be jealous about features they have but CL don't. In both of your examples, however, it's a pale imitation. 2015-10-01T02:14:37Z loke: In particular, none of Java nor C++ has proper closures. 2015-10-01T02:15:46Z namra: greetings, is there any documentation on how to construct pathnames? that explains it all in one place. i.e. the LispWorks Hyperspec for make-pathname never clearly states what value to supply to :directory 2015-10-01T02:16:06Z namra: the examples show something like :directory '(:absolute "var" "log") 2015-10-01T02:16:11Z loke: namra: It is examplained, but in a bad place. 2015-10-01T02:16:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T02:16:26Z phf: file:///Users/pf/quicklisp/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm 2015-10-01T02:16:27Z antonv: loke: how are java closures improper? 2015-10-01T02:16:27Z namra: neither does the directory component explain it 2015-10-01T02:16:33Z phf: welp, that was embarrassing 2015-10-01T02:17:33Z loke: namra: You can't do this: { int x = 10; doSomething(() -> x++); } 2015-10-01T02:17:56Z namra: loke: Oo ? 2015-10-01T02:18:11Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:18:20Z loke: namra: Any reference to lexical variables outside the lambda itself must be final. 2015-10-01T02:18:43Z Xach: namra: http://l1sp.org/cl/19.2.2.4.3 goes over directory bits 2015-10-01T02:18:54Z antonv: loke: ah, final, yes 2015-10-01T02:18:54Z loke: They simply never implemented closures at all. It's just syntactic sugar around anonymous classes. 2015-10-01T02:19:10Z namra: loke: thanks 2015-10-01T02:19:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:23:05Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:24:15Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:24:23Z jcmdln joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:24:48Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:27:11Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:34:09Z nicdev is now known as nicdev_ 2015-10-01T02:37:00Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T02:38:50Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:39:58Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T02:42:04Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T02:44:56Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-01T02:45:20Z zbigniew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T02:50:11Z danofthedeep quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Was just looking through this page 2015-10-01T03:13:28Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_metropolitan_Boston 2015-10-01T03:13:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:13:54Z p_l: loke: I once applied to MIT :) 2015-10-01T03:14:17Z p_l: as evidenced by my lack of student debt and several other things, I didn't get in ;) 2015-10-01T03:14:27Z loke: Ah, found another three-letter universtiry in boston: NEC 2015-10-01T03:14:35Z loke: New England Conservatory of Music 2015-10-01T03:14:47Z resttime: I'm curious, are there any "programming language features" which aren't in or are impossible to "add" to common lisp that are available in other programming language? 2015-10-01T03:15:09Z loke: resttime: Yes. 2015-10-01T03:15:50Z loke: resttime: Things like lightweight threads, calll-with-current-continuation, 2015-10-01T03:15:58Z loke: (well, not "impossible". but hard) 2015-10-01T03:16:50Z loke: Tail recursion guarantees is contrary to the flexibility of CL macros, so that'd be hard too 2015-10-01T03:17:12Z resttime: loke: okay, I was wondering since it felt like a lot of other programming languages just seem to be playing catchup (new ones too) 2015-10-01T03:17:54Z resttime: thanks 2015-10-01T03:18:07Z loke: resttime: Well, thanks to said flexibility of CL macros, it's mostly easy for CL to be a step ahead since most new innovations can be easily absorbed into CL while other languages need to formally incldue them. 2015-10-01T03:18:35Z loke: That said, things like first-class continuations or light-weight threads are not easily implementable as macros. 2015-10-01T03:19:46Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T03:22:25Z p_l: loke: well, TCO is done by many implementations.... 2015-10-01T03:22:47Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T03:22:54Z p_l: light-weight threading is definitely doable (case in point: genera, cmucl(?), ACL) 2015-10-01T03:23:05Z p_l: call-with-current-continuation is the hard one 2015-10-01T03:23:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: p_l: I think the problem is that you can't rely on what looks like a tail call to actually be one, because macros 2015-10-01T03:23:30Z p_l: the previous two have this annoying tendency of needing implementation support 2015-10-01T03:23:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, once macroexpansion has happened the compiler can do TCO, but the programmer can't reliably tell when he's writing a tail call. 2015-10-01T03:24:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least, I think that was how it was explained a while ago on here) 2015-10-01T03:24:13Z phf: fwiw yes cmucl uses green threads 2015-10-01T03:24:17Z p_l: though I suspect lightweight threads might be doable with normal code, but still require a ton of implementation-specific bits 2015-10-01T03:24:34Z p_l: like getting a safepoint in position then doing manual stack manipulation 2015-10-01T03:34:46Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T03:35:20Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:36:11Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:36:31Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:36:31Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T03:36:31Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T03:37:02Z kristof: popping and restoring stack frames is very low level and requires a pretty serious runtime regime 2015-10-01T03:37:15Z kristof: and even then, it's hard to get right and fast. 2015-10-01T03:37:16Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T03:38:04Z kristof: And the requirements are different for everyone, too. For instance, Go is throughput optimized, but Erlang is latency optimized. 2015-10-01T03:38:07Z kristof: Both have their purposes. 2015-10-01T03:38:24Z p_l: kristof: I'd say that Erlang is "safety optimized", even :) 2015-10-01T03:38:48Z leb joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:39:23Z kristof: oh, that's also true 2015-10-01T03:40:07Z kristof: p_l: Yeah, being able to kill non responsive threads is a step above latency optimization. If a thread never yields back to the scheduler cooperatively or checks its messages, how is anyone supposed to kill it? 2015-10-01T03:40:14Z kristof: The lesson is that these things are very complicated. 2015-10-01T03:40:23Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:41:12Z p_l: kristof: there's also the whole "it's actually a language AND an operating system" aspect to it 2015-10-01T03:42:04Z p_l: which I guess puts it back in similar range as Genera or Inferno 2015-10-01T03:42:09Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:43:50Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:45:07Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:46:00Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-01T03:46:26Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T03:46:33Z ajf-: easy way to round (0.4 0.6 2.4 etc) to (0 1 2) ? 2015-10-01T03:51:49Z Bike: mapcar #'round 2015-10-01T03:52:23Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T03:53:33Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-01T03:55:21Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes. WRT tail calls, a solution would be to have explicit tail calls, like in Clojure 2015-10-01T03:55:51Z loke: But that's all a bit silly since tail calls are rarely more readable than an explicit loop 2015-10-01T03:56:06Z loke: (since CL isn't a pure language to begin with) 2015-10-01T03:58:22Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:04:10Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:05:09Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:05:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:09:30Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T04:11:26Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:13:08Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:17:36Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-01T04:20:38Z xan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T04:22:39Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:24:25Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:24:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-01T04:25:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T04:25:36Z loke: Hello beach 2015-10-01T04:26:14Z namra quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-01T04:27:25Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I did it for CommonQt. 2015-10-01T06:58:44Z pjb: Reuse the library in CommonQt ;-) 2015-10-01T06:58:47Z daimrod joined #lisp 2015-10-01T06:59:35Z Shinmera: It's not part of CommonQt and not generalised to deal with this kind of task outside of its niche purpose. 2015-10-01T07:00:05Z Shinmera: Plus I wish I hadn't tried to bend ASDF to do this. It's a mess. 2015-10-01T07:00:15Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T07:01:41Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T07:01:58Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-01T07:03:43Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-01T07:05:06Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-01T07:05:41Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T07:07:53Z Shinmera: But either way, it's possible to do it, even if it's going to be a pain. 2015-10-01T07:08:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T07:10:46Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T07:11:06Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I found the documentation. What confused me is that it is just rss in quicklisp. 2015-10-01T09:22:13Z namra: can someone provide me with a working example for the websocket-driver lib? the one on the github page don't work :/. the first error was that the protocols must be a list when defining a server via make-server, but now the problem is when a client connects (using websocket-driver-client) the server throws an error and complains the request is not of type list. any clues? 2015-10-01T09:22:40Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:23:36Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:23:43Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:25:56Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:26:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:33:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T09:36:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:37:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:40:45Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:45:11Z andreh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:45:17Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T09:45:23Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:48:52Z namra: is there no websocket client lib? 2015-10-01T09:49:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:50:30Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:51:02Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:51:11Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:51:20Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:51:52Z keen___________1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:52:46Z keen___________0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T09:56:53Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T09:57:55Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:01:18Z Jameser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T10:01:49Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:02:17Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T10:02:23Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:02:57Z Shinmera: There's hunchensocket 2015-10-01T10:03:19Z mood: namra: A while ago, when building a custom client for agar.io, I just took Hunchensocket and adapted it a bit 2015-10-01T10:04:34Z namra: unfortunately i'm pretty new to lisp, thus it makes it very hard to get started right away with hunchensocket because there are no docs except the src. but helps to learn the language :). 2015-10-01T10:05:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:05:30Z DeadTrickster: hunchensocket is for servers isn't it? 2015-10-01T10:05:59Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:06:07Z namra: DeadTrickster: theres a websocket-client class 2015-10-01T10:06:11Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:06:11Z Vityok: mood: haha what is the goal of this game? 2015-10-01T10:06:34Z dytrivedi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:06:44Z namra: but i could be mistaken and it is used internally by hunchensocket 2015-10-01T10:06:45Z mood: Vityok: Staying alive, becoming bigger. 2015-10-01T10:06:55Z mood: Though I haven't played it for a while, things may have changed 2015-10-01T10:06:59Z eazar001_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:07:07Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:07:08Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:07:36Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:09:14Z bhajana joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:09:27Z bhajana: wuups battery empty 2015-10-01T10:11:11Z namra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:11:28Z bhajana is now known as namra 2015-10-01T10:12:25Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:16:19Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:16:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:20:57Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T10:26:10Z Cymew: drl: Where did you find it? 2015-10-01T10:33:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:37:49Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:38:41Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:39:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:39:13Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:41:16Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:47:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T10:49:17Z pyon quit (Quit: reboot) 2015-10-01T10:51:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:54:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:56:44Z keen___________1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T10:57:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:57:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T10:57:56Z keen___________1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T10:58:25Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:01:27Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-01T11:03:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:03:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:03:12Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-10-01T11:03:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:05:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:06:45Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:06:54Z pyon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T11:12:34Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T11:12:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:13:43Z DGASAU: Does anyone know the actual, up-to-date ABCL source repository? 2015-10-01T11:13:59Z DGASAU: Could you post the URL, please? 2015-10-01T11:14:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:14:39Z Shinmera: Ain't so hard to google. https://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/faq.shtml#repository 2015-10-01T11:14:47Z mood: DGASAU: http://abcl.org/faq.shtml#repository 2015-10-01T11:15:02Z DGASAU: That one doesn't work. 2015-10-01T11:15:11Z DGASAU: If it worked, I wouldn't ask the question. 2015-10-01T11:15:22Z Shinmera: Works fine for me. 2015-10-01T11:15:47Z DGASAU: Hm. 2015-10-01T11:15:59Z DGASAU: I'll try few other machines then... 2015-10-01T11:16:04Z mood: `svn checkout http://abcl.org/svn/trunk/abcl/` -> Checked out revision 14837 2015-10-01T11:16:24Z Cymew: svn co http://abcl.org/svn/trunk/abcl/ works fine here 2015-10-01T11:19:37Z DGASAU: Hm. 2015-10-01T11:20:11Z DGASAU: I cannot access it from my personal machine. 2015-10-01T11:20:50Z DGASAU: Thanks you all for assistance. 2015-10-01T11:20:56Z mtl_: DGASAU: maybe you're having a dns problem 2015-10-01T11:20:59Z DGASAU is quite surprised to run into weird problem. 2015-10-01T11:21:26Z Cymew: Considering the amount of stupid firewalls in place these days I'm not surprised. 2015-10-01T11:21:37Z DGASAU: mtl_: no, svn says "no route to host" while I receive quite good ICMP echo. 2015-10-01T11:22:12Z SlashLife quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-01T11:22:13Z mtl_: weird 2015-10-01T11:22:24Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:23:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T11:23:37Z pjb: The different protocols are not routed necessarily the same. Nowadays, most ISP will cheat on ICMP too. 2015-10-01T11:23:55Z DGASAU: pjb: seriously? 2015-10-01T11:24:06Z pjb: There are really crap ISPs. 2015-10-01T11:24:09Z DGASAU: Hm. 2015-10-01T11:26:23Z pjb: Try IPv6? 2015-10-01T11:28:50Z DGASAU: Not sure if it is possible at all. 2015-10-01T11:30:45Z Cymew: Worth trying. I just found out I had been using v6 for months when my tunnel crashed and my net acceess died. 2015-10-01T11:31:05Z Cymew: I had forgotten setting it up on a lark. 2015-10-01T11:31:50Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T11:37:07Z survi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:37:51Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-01T11:38:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:42:31Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:44:00Z ovix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T11:44:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T11:48:35Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-10-01T11:48:46Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:49:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:50:14Z ralt: is it possible to get a list of arguments, if I'm in a function? 2015-10-01T11:51:14Z Shinmera: ralt: The arguments of your own function or? 2015-10-01T11:51:23Z ralt: Shinmera: of your own function, yes 2015-10-01T11:51:29Z Xach: ralt: not without some fiddling. 2015-10-01T11:51:40Z pjb: (defun f (&rest list-of-arguments) (do-something-with list-of-arguments)) 2015-10-01T11:51:47Z ralt: i.e. the `arguments` object in javascript 2015-10-01T11:52:13Z ralt: pjb: the function is generated with a macro, so the list of arguments is variable 2015-10-01T11:52:15Z Yuuhi` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:52:25Z pjb: (defun f (&rest list-of-arguments)(destructuring-bind (a b &optional o &rest r &key k1 k2) list-of-arguments (do-something-with list-a b o r k1 k2))) 2015-10-01T11:52:31Z ralt: (sorry, I should've mentioned this) 2015-10-01T11:52:34Z Shinmera: Generate an outer function that uses &rest and the .. yes, what pjb said. 2015-10-01T11:53:22Z ralt: ah, nice 2015-10-01T11:53:24Z pjb: If it's known at macroexpansion time, then it's not "variable". 2015-10-01T11:53:27Z Shinmera: It's going to trash the automatic documentation though. 2015-10-01T11:53:50Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T11:53:51Z Shinmera: And if you have access to it at compile time you could try reassembling it from the lambda-list you're given. 2015-10-01T11:53:53Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:54:00Z Shinmera: Though that's a bit more of a hassle. 2015-10-01T11:54:10Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:54:12Z Shinmera: *if you have access to the lambda-list definition at compile time 2015-10-01T11:54:14Z pjb: You can also use the package COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-SEXP.SOURCE-FORM to have some fun with lambda-list at macroexpansion time. 2015-10-01T11:54:25Z Shinmera: Or lambda-fiddle. 2015-10-01T11:54:38Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/lambda-fiddle/ 2015-10-01T11:55:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-01T11:55:19Z ralt: thanks 2015-10-01T11:56:07Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T11:58:17Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T11:59:16Z survi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:00:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:01:31Z survi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:05:12Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-10-01T12:06:26Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:06:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:13:16Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:15:13Z namra quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-01T12:16:15Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:16:45Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T12:18:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:18:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:19:29Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T12:19:55Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:20:35Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:20:50Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:21:34Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T12:22:05Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:23:25Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-01T12:28:29Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:28:56Z Vityok quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:32:51Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:34:41Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:44:27Z smokeink: Xach: has buildapp been tested on windows? 2015-10-01T12:44:45Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: clws is MIT or BSD or something like that 2015-10-01T12:45:10Z Xach: smokeink: yes. for sbcl works fine. i believe busted for ccl. 2015-10-01T12:49:02Z smokeink: is there any way to test wether the --asdf-path i'm supplying it is valid or not? no matter how it doesn't find my asdf system, tried pathnames with backslashes, double backslashes, slashes 2015-10-01T12:49:23Z Xach: smokeink: are you using sbcl? 2015-10-01T12:49:44Z smokeink: yes 2015-10-01T12:50:15Z Xach: smokeink: Where is the system in question? 2015-10-01T12:50:31Z smokeink: EvW:\lisp\projects 2015-10-01T12:50:34Z smokeink: EvW:\lisp\projects 2015-10-01T12:50:41Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:50:45Z smokeink: e : \ lisp \ projects 2015-10-01T12:51:12Z Xach: smokeink: I would expect --asdf-path "e:/lisp/projects/" to work, can you try that and tell me what happens? 2015-10-01T12:51:48Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-01T12:51:51Z Xach: smokeink: so you have the system file in e:\lisp\projects\my-project.asd or something like that? 2015-10-01T12:52:24Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:52:29Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:53:05Z lvgx joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:54:14Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:54:29Z levabalkin joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:55:45Z smokeink: yes Xach 2015-10-01T12:55:47Z smokeink: it worked 2015-10-01T12:55:57Z smokeink: now how to deal with the dependencies ? 2015-10-01T12:56:40Z smokeink: the system uses other systems from quicklisp , can i add extra --asdf-path parameters ? 2015-10-01T12:57:22Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:57:35Z Xach: smokeink: in that situation, i start sbcl, load quicklisp, and then use (ql:write-asdf-manifest-file "manifest.txt") and then use --manifest-file manifest.txt 2015-10-01T12:57:51Z Xach: smokeink: however, that particular feature has not been well-tested on windows. if it does not work, please let me know. 2015-10-01T12:58:06Z nyon joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:58:08Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:58:40Z drl: Cymew, http://quickdocs.org/cl-rss/api#package-RSS 2015-10-01T12:58:47Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T12:59:01Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-01T12:59:09Z pyon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:02:01Z smokeink: Xach: doesn't seem to work well on windows.. 2015-10-01T13:02:11Z Xach: smokeink: darn. can you paste the manifest.txt file? 2015-10-01T13:02:15Z Xach: on paste.lisp.org that is 2015-10-01T13:04:22Z Xach: smokeink: fyi, --asdf-path is not recursive. --asdf-tree is. 2015-10-01T13:04:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:05:34Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:07:09Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156139#1 2015-10-01T13:07:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:08:25Z Xach: smokeink: that is no good, sorry. as a workaround, you could try using --asdf-tree pointed to your quicklisp directory. 2015-10-01T13:08:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:08:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:08:52Z Xach: I have an open issue for it, I'll try to fix soon 2015-10-01T13:09:03Z loke`````: re 2015-10-01T13:11:54Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T13:12:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:14:23Z smokeink: ok, thanks :) 2015-10-01T13:16:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:18:30Z Cymew: drl: Oh, forgot about quickdocs. Thanks! 2015-10-01T13:19:33Z Cymew: Now if we only had some examples as well... 2015-10-01T13:19:53Z loke`````: Cymew: examples of what? 2015-10-01T13:20:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:20:31Z Cymew: loke`````: Sorry, that was referring to my post directed to drl. 2015-10-01T13:20:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a Common Lisp library that can be used like make? 2015-10-01T13:21:10Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: asdf 2015-10-01T13:21:21Z loke`````: fiddlerwoaroof: What do you want it to do? ASDF is what you'd use normally. 2015-10-01T13:21:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, I want to use it to run Latex and a couple other commands 2015-10-01T13:21:50Z loke`````: fiddlerwoaroof: You can do that with ASDF 2015-10-01T13:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: basically, replace a shell script I have with something alse 2015-10-01T13:22:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke`````: any examples? 2015-10-01T13:22:24Z loke`````: fiddlerwoaroof: Examples for what? Running external programs as part of the system loading? 2015-10-01T13:22:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's not part of system loading 2015-10-01T13:22:39Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:22:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:22:46Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/takagi/lake -- i have no idea of its quality or real utility 2015-10-01T13:22:49Z loke`````: fiddlerwoaroof: then what is it? 2015-10-01T13:23:04Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:23:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke`````: I have a Markdown -> PDF workflow that I thought might be interesting to redo in Lisp 2015-10-01T13:23:59Z loke`````: fiddlerwoaroof: If it involes Lisp components, I'd just write a Lisp program to handle it all. If not, then what's wrong with Make? 2015-10-01T13:23:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, I was wondering about shell scripting in common lisp 2015-10-01T13:24:36Z Cymew: Sounds like Fare's idea is spreading. 2015-10-01T13:24:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke`````: nothing in particular, I was just curious 2015-10-01T13:24:48Z loke`````: Cymew: What is fares idea? 2015-10-01T13:25:13Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl supports a --script flag to use in bash scripts. 2015-10-01T13:25:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every once in a while, you run into things like scsh which aim to replace bash/zsh scripting with a Lispy version 2015-10-01T13:25:26Z Cymew: loke`````: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html 2015-10-01T13:25:48Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:25:49Z Cymew: "Common Lisp as a Scripting Language, 2015 edition" 2015-10-01T13:25:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: the real problem is a straightforward interface for running external commands 2015-10-01T13:26:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach's suggestion looks interesting, I wonder how well it works 2015-10-01T13:26:21Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:26:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T13:27:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:30:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T13:31:00Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:31:35Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T13:31:55Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:32:39Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:35:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:35:10Z smokeink: Xach: i love buildapp, i managed to compile this little qt gui app 2015-10-01T13:37:12Z smokeink: and it works beautifully 2015-10-01T13:37:34Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:38:08Z loke````` has a .lisp file that loads everything, includes a "main" function and finishes off with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 2015-10-01T13:38:20Z Shinmera lets Qtools and ASDF do the job. 2015-10-01T13:38:21Z loke`````: That file is ugly as sin, but works well enough. 2015-10-01T13:38:41Z loke`````: The file is only used when building the final binary though 2015-10-01T13:41:59Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:42:30Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:42:39Z smokeink: shinmera: a while ago i tried the asdf and qtools technique, on linux, but for some(unknown) reason it failed 2015-10-01T13:42:58Z stanislav1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:43:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:43:26Z Shinmera: I always love it when people tell me things "failed" because it really helps me to figure it out. How did it fail? What did you do? Was your ASDF up-to-date? 2015-10-01T13:43:29Z stanislav1 is now known as quasus 2015-10-01T13:43:38Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:43:55Z smokeink: well lemme give it a try right now to see if it still fails 2015-10-01T13:45:32Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T13:46:01Z Xach: smokeink: screenshot! 2015-10-01T13:46:37Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:47:08Z loke`````: Xach: Oh yeah... Every day at work I keep getting error reports when, after asking for the logs, I get a screenshot of a Putty terminal showing part of said log. Extra bonus points when the screenshot is embedded in a word document. 2015-10-01T13:47:29Z Xach: loke`````: i want to see this little qt gui app 2015-10-01T13:47:36Z Shinmera: loke`````: Have you gotten one printed out and photographed on a wooden table yet? 2015-10-01T13:48:20Z loke`````: Shinmera: thankfully no, but I did get a module phone photo of a putty terminal window once. From a customer who claimed they were not allowed to move data out of the systems for securty reasons. 2015-10-01T13:48:46Z Shinmera: loke`````: rrright... 2015-10-01T13:48:57Z loke`````: At least I think it was putty. It was, as you would have expected, blurry. 2015-10-01T13:49:25Z splittist discovers Excel has sparklines. Starts imagining Excel-based lisp IDE for emacs-phobes... 2015-10-01T13:49:47Z loke`````: SOmeone must have done it... 2015-10-01T13:50:22Z Xach is happy to see at least 11 pepole will be at the lisp dinner in two weeks 2015-10-01T13:51:09Z loke`````: Hmm... Searching for "lisp in vba" just gives me way too much autolisp references. Apparently you can do autocad in vba as well. 2015-10-01T13:51:19Z loke`````: Xach: where is that dinner? 2015-10-01T13:51:35Z Xach: loke`````: india pavilion, central square, cambridge, massachusetts, usa 2015-10-01T13:51:47Z loke`````: Ohh, look at this! https://github.com/joinr/sporklisp 2015-10-01T13:52:00Z loke`````: splittist: Your wish has been granted 2015-10-01T13:52:08Z Shinmera: While we're waiting for smokeink's screenshot, here's an updated one of Autobuild. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpNMQ== 2015-10-01T13:52:25Z loke`````: Xach: hmm, a bit too far. Not going to come to SE Asia anytime soon? 2015-10-01T13:52:51Z Xach: loke`````: I'd be happy to visit if you have a project for me, and can pay for travel :) 2015-10-01T13:52:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:53:21Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:54:00Z loke`````: I wish I did 2015-10-01T13:54:24Z Cymew: I can't decide if sporklisp is super cool, or just scary. 2015-10-01T13:55:19Z drl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T13:55:42Z Shinmera: There was an emacs thing that showed the results of lisp expressions inline as you edited them. 2015-10-01T13:55:50Z Shinmera: I forgot what it was called though. 2015-10-01T13:56:07Z splittist: loke`````: Fascinating. But I was thinking of having Excel talk to swank, and using Excel as gui library, as so many 'applications' seem to. Still... sporklisp + sicl => sporkl? 2015-10-01T13:57:12Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T13:57:27Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:01:15Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:06:10Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:06:22Z smokeink: Xach: here's the screenshot http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2v16mv4&s=8#.Vg09iXVq0b0 . don't have any webcam installed on this windows vm yet so no opencv effects in the screenshot 2015-10-01T14:06:58Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-01T14:07:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:07:18Z housel joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:07:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:07:56Z drl joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:08:13Z Xach: smokeink: cool 2015-10-01T14:08:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:09:36Z smokeink: so i guess CL is so damn cool , we can even do GUIs and such now 2015-10-01T14:10:10Z levabalkin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:10:50Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:10:52Z smokeink: i was thinking about writing a QT designer .ui -> qtools converter, so we can use the qtdesigner to do shit 2015-10-01T14:10:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:11:13Z splittist: smokeink: very nice (: (I particularly like the ".sbclrc - Notepad" in the task bar...) 2015-10-01T14:12:08Z flip214: yeah, that should be a GVIM! 2015-10-01T14:12:16Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T14:13:18Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T14:13:34Z nyon quit (Quit: testing) 2015-10-01T14:15:09Z flip214 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-01T14:16:23Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:18:01Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:18:01Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2015-10-01T14:18:01Z flip214 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:20:29Z Yuuhi`` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:21:21Z loke`````: If I want to implement a websocket server, should I use hunchensocket or websocket-driver? 2015-10-01T14:21:29Z loke`````: Anyone have any experience with either of them? 2015-10-01T14:22:04Z Yuuhi` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:23:40Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:24:15Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:24:21Z eudoxia: hunchensocket is more portable, i think 2015-10-01T14:24:31Z eudoxia: websocket-driver requires cl-async which requires libev/libuv? 2015-10-01T14:25:48Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:25:58Z danofthedeep joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:26:30Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:27:07Z loke`````: eudoxia: Thanks 2015-10-01T14:28:28Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:29:13Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:32:04Z knobo-net: loke`````: I tried websocket-driver, and it worked for me. 2015-10-01T14:32:35Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:32:54Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:34:06Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:35:15Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:36:09Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:36:15Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:37:19Z xach quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:37:40Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T14:37:48Z knobo-net: I had less annoyance with clack/woo then hunchentoot. Even though woo is just beta. 2015-10-01T14:38:03Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:38:12Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:38:58Z chrnybo: knobo-net: Whatcha use it for? 2015-10-01T14:39:07Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:39:09Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:39:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:39:48Z loke`````: knobo-net: The rest of my application is built on Hunchentoot anyway, so I might as well stick with it. 2015-10-01T14:40:06Z loke`````: But I might write a websocket backend using websocket-driver too... 2015-10-01T14:40:37Z knobo-net: chrnybo: websocket-driver or clack? 2015-10-01T14:41:21Z loke`````: OK, hunchensocket was ridiculously easy to set up 2015-10-01T14:42:23Z chrnybo: knobo-net: Websockets 2015-10-01T14:44:13Z knobo-net: websocket-driver I have just played with doing som live video streming with webrtc 2015-10-01T14:44:18Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T14:44:33Z knobo-net: doing the signaling with websocket 2015-10-01T14:45:00Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:45:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:46:41Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:48:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:48:56Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T14:49:01Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:49:05Z knobo-net: the annoyance I have had with hunchentoot is for example sometimes the url's are latin1 and sometimes utf8 2015-10-01T14:49:28Z loke`````: knobo-net: Do you know the websocket stuff well? 2015-10-01T14:49:45Z knobo-net: And I was not able to work out the logic on how to the right thing at the right time. 2015-10-01T14:50:46Z loke`````: I'm reading up on it now, but it's not entirely clear to me if messages are guaranteed to be sent in full, or if they can be split? I.e. if a client calls .send(someMessage) in javascript, am I guaranteed to get that string, complete, on the server side (and vice versa) 2015-10-01T14:51:01Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T14:51:06Z loke`````: I was under the impression that websocket was a streaming system, but the api seems bessage-based. 2015-10-01T14:52:16Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:52:27Z knobo-net: loke`````: the library should handle messages fragmentation 2015-10-01T14:52:46Z knobo-net: loke`````: if it does not, don't use it. 2015-10-01T14:52:52Z loke`````: knobo-net: Which library? I'm using the websocket javascript api directly on the client side, and hunchensocket on the server side. 2015-10-01T14:53:30Z loke`````: This one to be precise: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebSocket 2015-10-01T14:54:05Z knobo-net: I would gess hunchensocket joins message fragments. 2015-10-01T14:54:22Z loke`````: knobo-net: And when I send them from the server to the client? 2015-10-01T14:54:56Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:55:45Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T14:56:30Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T14:56:38Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:56:57Z ralt: loke`````: WS are rather a frames protocol than a streaming protocol 2015-10-01T14:57:09Z knobo-net: The same with the browser. The browser's websocket api should join frames 2015-10-01T14:57:19Z loke`````: ralt: I see. Thanks fr that infromation. That makes things easier. 2015-10-01T14:57:55Z drl: Is Kevin M. Rosenberg here? He is the author of cl-rss. 2015-10-01T14:58:23Z Xach: drl: no. 2015-10-01T14:58:29Z Xach: kevin does not use irc 2015-10-01T14:59:27Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-10-01T14:59:32Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T14:59:57Z drl: Xach, is there any way to communicate with him? 2015-10-01T15:00:07Z Xach: drl: I use email. 2015-10-01T15:00:18Z dlowe: like a dinosaur :) 2015-10-01T15:00:25Z dlowe: (he said on irc) 2015-10-01T15:01:29Z drl: Is his e-mail public? 2015-10-01T15:01:41Z Xach: drl: I think so. 2015-10-01T15:02:30Z Xach: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs/kmrcl/changelog.html for example 2015-10-01T15:03:31Z drl: Xach, thank you. 2015-10-01T15:04:20Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:04:44Z Xach: Hmm. I haven't used ccl:save-application much. I have a toplevel-function that runs, but signals an error. When I :pop out of the debugger, the result is a non-responsive system - C-c doesn't break, and it doesn't respond to any typed input. 2015-10-01T15:04:46Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:04:47Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:04:57Z Xach: (this is ccl 1.10...) 2015-10-01T15:05:59Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:06:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:06:12Z emaczen: Why do people run hunchentoot behind apache/nginx? 2015-10-01T15:06:21Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:06:33Z ralt: loke`````: "The base framing protocol defines a frame type with an opcode, a 2015-10-01T15:06:33Z ralt: payload length, and [...]" 2015-10-01T15:06:39Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:06:46Z Xach: emaczen: I do it because nginx is very fast at serving static files and hunchentoot is not. 2015-10-01T15:06:47Z ralt: loke`````: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-5 2015-10-01T15:06:57Z Xach: emaczen: i also like a layer of protocol sanity checking in front of hunchentoot 2015-10-01T15:07:10Z emaczen: protocol sanity checking? 2015-10-01T15:07:13Z ralt: emaczen: hunchentoot is also vulnerable to multiple ddos-like attacks, which nginx isn't 2015-10-01T15:07:22Z ralt: (don't remember much more about this though) 2015-10-01T15:07:28Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:07:36Z Xach: emaczen: As in, if a client sends very strange invalid requests, I'd rather have nginx reject them rather than hunchentoot 2015-10-01T15:07:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nginx is also fairly good at SSL 2015-10-01T15:07:53Z ralt: (I should have to look at the closed issues on hunchentoot, this is a "works as expected" issue.) 2015-10-01T15:08:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: And has a large userbase and active developers, so SSL vulnerabilities are discovered and fixed quickly 2015-10-01T15:08:38Z emaczen: Ok, nginx is just more mature/tested. 2015-10-01T15:08:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, Nginx lets you experiment with interesting new protocols like SPDY and, soon, HTTP/2 2015-10-01T15:08:52Z ralt: also: don't use hunchentoot sessions. 2015-10-01T15:09:02Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: http/2 is in nginx last mainline release 2015-10-01T15:09:10Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:09:14Z emaczen: Is there any performance issues with using nginx inbetween? 2015-10-01T15:09:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: I wasn't sure, the last thing I saw was the plans 2015-10-01T15:09:33Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: someone did an s/spdy/http2 :) 2015-10-01T15:09:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: But "already" is pretty soon :) 2015-10-01T15:09:42Z ralt: so spdy isn't supported anymore, but http/2 is now. 2015-10-01T15:10:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, good to know. That means that, when I upgrade, I'll have to fix all my configs 2015-10-01T15:10:14Z ralt: yes. 2015-10-01T15:10:26Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:10:36Z ralt: (having to manage lots of servers, knowing this beforehand is very useful.) 2015-10-01T15:10:40Z Xach: emaczen: not that i've noticed 2015-10-01T15:12:07Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-01T15:12:14Z emaczen: Cool, I'm going to give it a try. 2015-10-01T15:12:24Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:13:22Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:13:32Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T15:14:38Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:16:03Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:17:46Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:20:07Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T15:20:28Z mood: emaczen: Running nginx between the internet and the application is an incredibly common thing. There aren't any performance issues with it 2015-10-01T15:20:51Z mood: In fact, if your site is behind CloudFlare, it's also already behind nginx on that level 2015-10-01T15:22:41Z ralt: and nginx also having tcp streaming, your routers might be behind nginx too :-) 2015-10-01T15:24:01Z jeadre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:24:06Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:24:10Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:24:15Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:24:32Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:25:27Z jeadre joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:25:55Z fiddlerwoaroof just realized that I should use fastcgi rather than reverse proxying all the time 2015-10-01T15:26:59Z survi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:27:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: I don't know how well it works, but if you're also using clack, you might consider using the FastCGI backend 2015-10-01T15:29:08Z smokeink: Xach: buildapp is failing me on linux, what could the problem be? http://pastecode.ru/14e27/ 2015-10-01T15:29:16Z flambard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T15:29:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:29:46Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:29:53Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:29:54Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:30:24Z rme: Xach: What do you want to happen after your toplevel function gets an error? (I don't know right off hand how all the toplevel function stuff works, but I could probably figure it out). 2015-10-01T15:31:10Z XachX: rme: exit. Right now I'm going to wrap things with a handler-bind. 2015-10-01T15:33:14Z rme: ok 2015-10-01T15:35:48Z survi joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:36:13Z ajf-: i'm sure this embedded listener of opusmodus can be taken out 2015-10-01T15:36:21Z ajf-: and i could code in my own editor 2015-10-01T15:36:28Z ajf-: would be nice 2015-10-01T15:37:17Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:37:20Z rme: ajf-: You can load swank into Opusmodus and connect to it via emacs if you like. 2015-10-01T15:37:21Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:37:32Z ajf-: ah like a remote session 2015-10-01T15:37:41Z ajf-: thank you rme will look into it 2015-10-01T15:37:43Z rme: Xach: (save-application "foo.image" :toplevel-function #'(lambda () (error "lose")) 2015-10-01T15:37:44Z rme: :error-handler :quit :application-class 'application) 2015-10-01T15:37:56Z rme: oops, sorry. 2015-10-01T15:38:19Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:38:36Z rme: ajf-: Do you know how to do that? 2015-10-01T15:38:59Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:39:03Z ajf-: rme no but well... I guess there's info somewhere 2015-10-01T15:39:12Z ajf-: I did get my emacs + slime and all going 2015-10-01T15:39:19Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:39:19Z gko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:39:26Z ajf-: but I didn't see the point of having a separate lisp afterwards 2015-10-01T15:39:47Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:39:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:41:37Z danofthedeep quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T15:42:35Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:42:38Z rme: ajf-: OK. Start Opsumodus, load Quicklisp, (ql:quickload :swank), (cl-user::start-swank). Then from emacs, M-x slime-connect, take defaults, and your emacs will be talking to the lisp in Opusmodus. 2015-10-01T15:44:19Z ajf-: nice, and if I do that from a simple ccl repl or it's not that easy ? 2015-10-01T15:44:29Z ajf-: ah right, I need the editor 2015-10-01T15:48:34Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:48:35Z ajf-: I'll do that and report back -- now I need to reinstall all the emacs - prelude - slime combo 2015-10-01T15:49:11Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T15:49:20Z eudoxia_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T15:50:16Z ralt: ajf-: you might like quicklisp-slime-helper 2015-10-01T15:52:08Z drmeister: Does anyone know if sldb/slime can handle connecting to a debugger that is in a different process from the process being debugged? 2015-10-01T15:52:43Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:52:53Z larme joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:53:29Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:54:33Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T15:54:54Z smokeink: why doesn't quickload load all of halftones dependencies automatically? like :named-readtables :closer-mop etc i had to quickload them manually.. even CL-PPCRE. Is it a quicklisp bug ? (quicklisp :halftone) Error while trying to load definition for system halftone from pathname /home/smokeink/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/halftone-20150804-git/halftone.asd: Component :CL-PPCRE not found, required by #< 2015-10-01T15:54:54Z smokeink: SYSTEM "qtools"> 2015-10-01T15:55:24Z drmeister: I'm going to expose the C++ API of lldb to Clasp and when I create a Debugger instance it will be in a forked process. 2015-10-01T15:55:32Z Xach: smokeink: hmm, are those from :defsystem-depends-on? 2015-10-01T15:55:53Z smokeink: i think they might be, let me check 2015-10-01T15:55:58Z drmeister: Do any other Common Lisps do this? Namely fork a separate process to run a debugger? 2015-10-01T15:56:01Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:56:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T15:58:41Z smokeink: halftone has :defsystem-depends-on (:qtools) and qtools.asd has :depends-on (:qt-libs :trivial-garbage :closer-mop :named-readtables :trivial-indent :form-fiddle :cl-ppcre) <- had to load manually this stuff 2015-10-01T15:58:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T15:59:00Z drmeister: What's interesting about this is the Clasp debugger will be able to debug Common Lisp and C++/C/Fortran code 2015-10-01T15:59:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T15:59:59Z drmeister: ... single step through instructions, set breakpoints, continue under debugger control... 2015-10-01T16:02:24Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:06:09Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:06:10Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:07:18Z smokeink: i'm gonna go to rest a bit now, see you guys later 2015-10-01T16:08:09Z smokeink quit (Quit: peace) 2015-10-01T16:09:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:12:32Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T16:13:24Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:15:37Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-01T16:15:42Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:15:44Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:17:44Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T16:17:46Z schweers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T16:17:59Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:20:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:23:02Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-01T16:23:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:23:48Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:24:06Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:24:53Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-01T16:25:02Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:25:20Z _vaitel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:25:48Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:25:49Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:25:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:26:39Z badkins quit 2015-10-01T16:28:06Z zwdr joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:28:40Z vaitel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:29:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:30:21Z novemberist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T16:30:31Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:30:35Z XachX quit (Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T16:30:45Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:32:18Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T16:32:20Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:34:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:34:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-01T16:36:27Z Tristam quit (Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.) 2015-10-01T16:36:58Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:37:03Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T16:37:08Z shka_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T16:37:39Z Shinmera: minion: memo for smokeink The QL problem you experienced has to do with :defsystem-depends-on a local-projects system. Either quickloading qtools manually first, or removing all my projects from your local-projects should fix that. 2015-10-01T16:37:39Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 2015-10-01T16:37:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:37:47Z Shinmera: minion: memo for smokeink: The QL problem you experienced has to do with :defsystem-depends-on a local-projects system. Either quickloading qtools manually first, or removing all my projects from your local-projects should fix that. 2015-10-01T16:37:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell smokeink when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-01T16:37:55Z Shinmera: Every damn time! *shakes fist* 2015-10-01T16:38:12Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:38:36Z emaczen: Xach: Is all you need to do, is set "proxy_pass" in "location \ { ... } -- This is what I am doing and it works. 2015-10-01T16:38:47Z shka_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T16:39:02Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:39:05Z XachX: emaczen: yes 2015-10-01T16:39:11Z emaczen: sweet :) 2015-10-01T16:39:18Z kanru` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:39:27Z XachX: emaczen: I think I did something for X-forwarded-for too. 2015-10-01T16:39:27Z emaczen: Does anybody host themselves? 2015-10-01T16:39:34Z DeadTrickster: minion, memo for DeadTrickster: test 2015-10-01T16:39:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell DeadTrickster when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-01T16:39:34Z minion: DeadTrickster, memo from DeadTrickster: test 2015-10-01T16:39:39Z DeadTrickster: a-ha 2015-10-01T16:39:40Z XachX: I have my own server. 2015-10-01T16:40:24Z emaczen: XachX: Why do you need the originating IP? 2015-10-01T16:40:55Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:41:13Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:43:56Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:44:10Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:47:59Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:48:21Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:49:16Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T16:50:25Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:50:54Z warweasle: Why doesn't this work? (defun test () parent) (let ((*parent* 4)) (test t)) 2015-10-01T16:51:27Z warweasle: rather (defun test () parent) (let ((parent 34)) (test)) 2015-10-01T16:51:33Z kanru` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T16:53:04Z Tristam joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:53:11Z Shinmera: Because you haven't declared parent to be special. 2015-10-01T16:53:20Z Shinmera: Bindings are lexical by default. 2015-10-01T16:53:39Z kanru` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:54:59Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-10-01T16:55:58Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T16:57:10Z empedokles joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:57:21Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:58:03Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:58:26Z empedokles quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T16:59:03Z empedokles joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:59:25Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T16:59:34Z baotiao quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T16:59:49Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-10-01T17:03:28Z gendl: Hi, is there a single format directive which can print a floating-point number with commas and two places after the decimal? 2015-10-01T17:03:56Z gendl: (format nil "..." 3333333.72) --> "3,333,333.00" 2015-10-01T17:04:06Z gendl: sorry i mean "3,333,333.72" 2015-10-01T17:04:30Z gendl: Assume I already take care of properly rounding the number before sending it to format. 2015-10-01T17:06:18Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:07:16Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T17:08:07Z Shinmera: All floating point directives don't take a commachar, and ~d rounds it to one digit after the point. 2015-10-01T17:08:46Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:08:56Z Shinmera: So I assume the answer is probably no. 2015-10-01T17:09:08Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:09:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:10:24Z gendl: So I'll use something like this: 2015-10-01T17:10:26Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:10:40Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sKD1HfZU/ 2015-10-01T17:11:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:11:50Z Shinmera: Well putting it into a single format would be neater and avoid the append, but yes, that would have been my idea as well. Can't say I'm sure there isn't a better solution though. 2015-10-01T17:11:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:14:39Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:15:46Z nzambe: gendl: have you seen this? Might apply in your case http://xach.com/naggum/articles/3103414716828506@naggum.no.html 2015-10-01T17:16:00Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:16:22Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:16:43Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:17:46Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:18:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:19:22Z nzambe: gendl: the /dollars/ function http://xach.com/naggum/articles/3080418708436309@naggum.no.html 2015-10-01T17:20:17Z Bike: hope that's not actually money 2015-10-01T17:20:48Z kanru` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:23:01Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:25:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:27:44Z danofthedeep joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:30:44Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:32:12Z ggole quit 2015-10-01T17:32:35Z gendl: nzambe: Yes, thank you. Erik's /dollar/ function avoids a bug which was in my version for cases with zero after the decimal point. 2015-10-01T17:35:22Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:35:23Z danofthedeep quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-01T17:36:17Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:39:30Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:39:38Z Xach: emaczen: i had to block people 2015-10-01T17:40:04Z Xach: Is ~$ apt here? 2015-10-01T17:41:55Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:43:47Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:43:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:44:13Z Bike: clhs ~$ 2015-10-01T17:44:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccd.htm 2015-10-01T17:44:37Z Bike: no commachar, i guess 2015-10-01T17:44:40Z Xach: ok 2015-10-01T17:45:07Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:45:15Z Shinmera: Bike: yeah, that's why I dismissed it. 2015-10-01T17:47:42Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-01T17:49:49Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:50:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:51:31Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-01T17:52:04Z leb joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:52:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:54:38Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-01T17:55:14Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:55:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:57:26Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-10-01T17:58:39Z varjag: anyone had luck running bordeaux-fft on ccl/amd64? 2015-10-01T18:00:39Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:02:45Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T18:02:46Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:03:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:04:05Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:05:01Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:08:11Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T18:09:34Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:10:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:13:22Z emaczen: Is there a quicklisp function that can give me some information about packages? 2015-10-01T18:13:39Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:16:41Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:17:02Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T18:18:04Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:19:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:24:01Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:25:26Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:25:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:27:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:28:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:30:15Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:31:07Z Xach: emaczen: not yet. 2015-10-01T18:31:13Z Xach: emaczen: quickdocs.org gives some info though 2015-10-01T18:31:29Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-01T18:32:48Z survi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T18:39:04Z hitecnologys: Alright, I think my SLIME auto completion just broke. auto-complete doesn't complete anything while slime-complete-symbol works. Any idea why this could happen? 2015-10-01T18:39:39Z mood: hitecnologys: Is there some long-running thing running in the REPL, perhaps? 2015-10-01T18:39:53Z mood: That always screws up my autocomplete, though I use company-mode 2015-10-01T18:39:54Z hitecnologys: mood: nope, just started my Emacs. 2015-10-01T18:40:31Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:41:03Z varjag: https://github.com/cbaggers/tamei 2015-10-01T18:42:28Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-01T18:43:04Z hitecnologys: Wait, I think it's worse: it works in REPL but doesn't in file buffer. 2015-10-01T18:43:48Z hitecnologys: Oh, never mind the last one, auto-complete doesn't work there as well. 2015-10-01T18:44:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T18:44:51Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T18:47:34Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:48:00Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:49:55Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:51:30Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:53:06Z hitecnologys: Err, I think just fuzzy completion is broken. I remember having similar problems some time in the past but I can't recall how I fixed that. Has anyone encountered anything similar? 2015-10-01T18:54:47Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-01T18:56:42Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:58:00Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T18:59:58Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:01:22Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T19:01:41Z warweasle: Is there a way to write functions so I can save their state, serialize them, load them and restart them? 2015-10-01T19:02:08Z dlowe: warweasle: not the way you want, no 2015-10-01T19:02:33Z warweasle: dlowe: No macros which could do it? 2015-10-01T19:02:41Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:02:50Z p_l: warweasle: not without heavy implementation support 2015-10-01T19:03:08Z mood: warweasle: You want to stop a function while it's running? 2015-10-01T19:03:11Z warweasle: p_l: :( 2015-10-01T19:03:15Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-10-01T19:03:39Z warweasle: mood: Yes. And save it then bring it back to life. I would prefer having the source as well. 2015-10-01T19:03:56Z dlowe: actually, there is one way 2015-10-01T19:03:58Z jackdaniel: warweasle: CL doesn't support continuations (I think you want something of this kind) 2015-10-01T19:04:00Z dlowe: save-lisp-and-die 2015-10-01T19:04:20Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:04:21Z warweasle: jackdaniel: That would be similar. 2015-10-01T19:04:33Z Shinmera: dlowe: You can only do that at predefined points 2015-10-01T19:04:50Z znpy: hi people 2015-10-01T19:04:52Z mood: I was thinking about combining cl-store's lambda serialization and cl-cont 2015-10-01T19:05:08Z p_l: there was closure serialization code for SBCL 2015-10-01T19:05:22Z jackdaniel: dlowe: well, it's what p_l said - save-lisp-and-die requires implementation support 2015-10-01T19:05:37Z warweasle: mood: That might be close enough. 2015-10-01T19:06:31Z Shinmera: warweasle: my question is: Why do you want this? 2015-10-01T19:07:08Z jackdaniel: there is also cl-greenthreads - not sure about the name - (using cl-cont) - you may hack on that 2015-10-01T19:07:10Z hitecnologys: Oh, it just doesn't automatically enable fuzzy completion support: passing t as first argument to set-up-slime-ac fixed the problem. Question is off. 2015-10-01T19:07:48Z warweasle: Shinmera: Well, it's for this universal editor I'm working on. 2015-10-01T19:08:11Z Shinmera: That doesn't really answer my question 2015-10-01T19:09:17Z warweasle: Shinmera: I want to create a tree of objects and aspect oriented functions which operate on them. Then I want to be able to save the state and reload the entire tree just as it was. 2015-10-01T19:09:33Z warweasle: Shinmera: Like a snapshot. 2015-10-01T19:09:45Z Shinmera: I don't see why that would require saving functions. 2015-10-01T19:09:58Z warweasle: Shinmera: Because code is part of the data. 2015-10-01T19:10:08Z Shinmera: Nor why if you do that, the functions would need to be interruptable instead of merely serialisable. 2015-10-01T19:10:47Z warweasle: Shinmera: I wasn't thinking of interrupting them. 2015-10-01T19:11:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:11:35Z mood: warweasle: Yet you said "Yes" to my question of stopping a function while it's running. 2015-10-01T19:11:52Z warweasle: mood: Sorry. I misspoke. 2015-10-01T19:12:14Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:12:16Z Shinmera: If you just need to serialise lambdas, write a macro that saves the form and expands to a lambda -- done. 2015-10-01T19:12:17Z warweasle: mood: I meant serializing a closure's data and code so I can remake it and call it later. 2015-10-01T19:12:55Z warweasle: Shinmera: Like a new lambda2 or defun2 ? 2015-10-01T19:12:58Z Shinmera: If you have closures you need to enforce data separation in order to know what to save. 2015-10-01T19:13:21Z warweasle: Shinmera: That would work. 2015-10-01T19:14:12Z warweasle: Shinmera: But then again, so would a class, right? 2015-10-01T19:15:10Z Shinmera: I don't really know what you're doing, so I don't know what you're asking me. 2015-10-01T19:15:20Z warweasle: cl-store might do the job. 2015-10-01T19:15:22Z Shinmera: Personally I think code as data is a Bad Idea™. 2015-10-01T19:15:39Z Shinmera: Outside of a very constrained field. 2015-10-01T19:16:01Z Shinmera: Intermixing it with other data is just going to land you in state hell where reconstructing it is a pain in the ass to get right. 2015-10-01T19:16:13Z warweasle: Shinmera: I want to save a document, but the document includes lisp code. So I want to save the code and its external data so I can restore it later. 2015-10-01T19:16:49Z jackdaniel: woah, you want to associate living environment with documents on disk? ^_^ 2015-10-01T19:17:05Z hitecnologys: warweasle: isn't it easier to store only code and compile on when necessary? 2015-10-01T19:17:17Z hitecnologys: s/on /one / 2015-10-01T19:17:19Z warweasle: hitecnologys: I only intend to compile on load. 2015-10-01T19:17:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:18:05Z hitecnologys: warweasle: well, you can't reconstruct function from its machine code representation. 2015-10-01T19:18:06Z Shinmera: warweasle: To what extent does it "include lisp code"? How is the code introduced? What's the API? What kind of interaction extents does it have? 2015-10-01T19:19:12Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:19:24Z warweasle: Shinmera: All good questions, but I just figured out another piece of my puzzle using (delare (special ... So now saving functions for later so I can bring my document back up, is the only missing peice. 2015-10-01T19:20:20Z warweasle: Shinmera: Think of having a web page with javascript that you can restore to another computer. 2015-10-01T19:20:28Z gko joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:20:51Z Shinmera: warweasle: yeah but can you restore the page while it is in a running state or just dump it? 2015-10-01T19:20:59Z Shinmera: The former case is not trivial and the latter is. 2015-10-01T19:21:02Z warweasle: Shinmera: Oh, just dump it. 2015-10-01T19:21:17Z warweasle: Stop and dump then bring it in again later. 2015-10-01T19:21:21Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T19:22:26Z Shinmera: Well here we have the 'stop' again. What does 'stop' mean? For JS the situation is very clear: You have a fixed initial state from which all future state is computed. You can always go back to that state. 2015-10-01T19:22:30Z jackdaniel: warweasle: that *stop* stays in contradiction with dump-and-load the page 2015-10-01T19:22:58Z Shinmera: If you have a situation like JS the problem is trivial. 2015-10-01T19:23:06Z Shinmera: If you do not, it's very complicated. 2015-10-01T19:23:40Z Shinmera: For the former you need to a) serialise the initial source (very easy) b) provide a startup hook 2015-10-01T19:23:42Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I'm not good at explaining. I want to save the state, so if I have a counter in a closure or class, I can serialize it back in. I think cl-store will do what I need now that I know of it. 2015-10-01T19:24:07Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:24:10Z Shinmera: So that's not at all like JS. 2015-10-01T19:24:13Z jackdaniel: warweasle: then you pick the harder one 2015-10-01T19:24:21Z jackdaniel: from two Shinmera suggested 2015-10-01T19:24:21Z warweasle: I mean stop the program. Save all the data. Then load it again later. 2015-10-01T19:24:32Z hitecnologys: warweasle: so, you want to mix current and initial state and serialize it? 2015-10-01T19:24:57Z Shinmera: warweasle: That's the problem. What counts as "data". If internal function state counts as "data" you're in trouble. 2015-10-01T19:25:09Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:25:23Z Shinmera: You can always SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE, but that saves the world, not a document. 2015-10-01T19:25:23Z jackdaniel: cl-store won't help you with closures 2015-10-01T19:25:46Z warweasle: Shinmera: I don't need the internal state of the functions. They get run every so often an quit, much like a game. 2015-10-01T19:25:48Z Shinmera: *also you can't always s-l-a-d, you have to have only a single thread running. 2015-10-01T19:26:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: S-L-A-D doesn't always work either. 2015-10-01T19:26:15Z Shinmera: warweasle: But you just said you want to serialise the counter in a closure. 2015-10-01T19:26:20Z Shinmera: that's internal state. 2015-10-01T19:26:32Z nyef: Under what circumstances, other than having a second thread running, does SLAD not work? 2015-10-01T19:26:38Z warweasle: Shinmera: Yes, that's external to the function right? That's inside it's closure. 2015-10-01T19:26:42Z Shinmera: nyef: if you have FDs 2015-10-01T19:26:48Z hitecnologys: nyef: for example, when dealing with foreign memory. 2015-10-01T19:26:49Z jackdaniel: warweasle: just a) instead of creating closures create additional key parameter :internal-state 2015-10-01T19:26:56Z jackdaniel: b) serialize that parameter 2015-10-01T19:27:07Z Shinmera: warweasle: No it's not. If it's in a closure, it's function state. 2015-10-01T19:27:07Z nyef: Okay, untracked alien state. That's fair, I guess. 2015-10-01T19:27:41Z hitecnologys: nyef: also, IIRC, finalizers tend to break. 2015-10-01T19:27:46Z warweasle: Shinmera: I guess that's what I didn't explain. A function is called, does something and returns almost immediately. So I can just save everything in an object, that should work. 2015-10-01T19:28:15Z hitecnologys: nyef: I'm sure there are more corner-cases where it behaves improperly. 2015-10-01T19:28:24Z nyef: Finalizers, hmm? 2015-10-01T19:28:31Z resttime: Serializing just the object should be fine then in that case 2015-10-01T19:28:34Z warweasle: Shinmera: So I can rebuild the object and then restart the application again. 2015-10-01T19:28:36Z hitecnologys: nyef: instance finalizers. 2015-10-01T19:28:50Z hitecnologys: nyef: SBCL specific thing. 2015-10-01T19:29:14Z Yuuhi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:29:14Z nyef: SLAD itself is SBCL-specific, anyway. 2015-10-01T19:29:19Z Shinmera: warweasle: You just need to get two steps into your protocol: a) how to stop the world and get the data out b) how to create the world and stuff the data in 2015-10-01T19:29:20Z jackdaniel: warweasle: just keep some hashtable as keyparameter and keep your toys there - it will be easier, more portable and, erm, easier ;) 2015-10-01T19:29:37Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I think you are right. 2015-10-01T19:30:13Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I was wondering about references to other items outside the object. 2015-10-01T19:30:14Z Shinmera: warweasle: The easiest way to do this is to set constraints like: Everything has to have a class that stores the state, and a method to load/store the class. 2015-10-01T19:30:37Z hitecnologys: nyef: other implementations have analogues but I'm not sure about finalization since I haven't dealt with implementations other than SBCL and CCL much. 2015-10-01T19:30:39Z warweasle: Shinmera: And I can do that with a nice macro, right? 2015-10-01T19:30:46Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T19:30:59Z resttime: I'll make a small plug for this serializer I find kinda neat: https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack 2015-10-01T19:31:00Z nyef: I'm primarily an SBCL user, myself. 2015-10-01T19:31:13Z Shinmera: warweasle: So, a "function" could be implemented as a class+"run" method. You define a wrapper around one or both that takes care of saving the method body and stuffing it in the class to save along with any other required fields. 2015-10-01T19:31:23Z nyef: Ah, no. Finalizers have documented semantics for SLAD. 2015-10-01T19:31:32Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:31:38Z nyef: See the :DONT-SAVE argument to FINALIZE. 2015-10-01T19:31:56Z warweasle: Shinmera: Oh...that would do exactly what I need. 2015-10-01T19:32:11Z hitecnologys: nyef: oh, I see. Memory corruption again, bleh. 2015-10-01T19:32:15Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:32:44Z hitecnologys sure needs to get his memory banks replaced by ECC-enabled ones 2015-10-01T19:32:45Z Shinmera: nyef: Oh damn I need to look into that. Qtools does some stuff with finalizers (though I don't think anyone uses it) 2015-10-01T19:34:43Z hitecnologys: Anyway, off to bed. Night, #lisp. 2015-10-01T19:35:00Z Shinmera: warweasle: Note that this won't allow 'anonymous functions'. That's one of the constraints I talked about. 2015-10-01T19:35:01Z warweasle: hitecnologys: Thanks for the pointers 2015-10-01T19:35:51Z warweasle: Shinmera: I can deal with a little structure. Makes things easier. 2015-10-01T19:36:32Z Shinmera: warweasle: You could have anonymous functions if you define clearly where they can appear so you can collect their data again (the trick again would be to couple the definition with a storage object that provides the actual data) 2015-10-01T19:36:34Z zwdr: but it should be trivial to generate unique symbols for anonymoous functions, right? 2015-10-01T19:36:59Z Shinmera: zwdr: Sure. The question is more where can they appear? Where can you define them? 2015-10-01T19:37:11Z Shinmera: If you restrict it to a named toplevel things become easy. 2015-10-01T19:37:18Z anthracite joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:37:20Z Shinmera: Because then you clearly know how to reach them. 2015-10-01T19:38:15Z nyef: ... You're a couple of hops from CPS-conversion. You know that, right? 2015-10-01T19:38:36Z warweasle: nyef: Child Protective Services? 2015-10-01T19:38:49Z Shinmera: Colleen: do expand CPS 2015-10-01T19:38:49Z Colleen: CPS: Cataleptic Putrid Sincerities 2015-10-01T19:39:20Z resttime: Continuation passing style 2015-10-01T19:39:37Z warweasle: ahhh... 2015-10-01T19:43:05Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-10-01T19:43:22Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:46:00Z anthracite quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T19:46:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T19:47:53Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-01T19:48:19Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:48:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T19:48:55Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:49:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:51:39Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T19:53:12Z EXID123 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T19:55:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:56:56Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:57:02Z Jameser` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T19:57:29Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:00:04Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:00:48Z resttime: Hmmm, something I've been wondering: Can't one technically blow the stack with continuations? 2015-10-01T20:01:06Z dlowe: No. Continuations mean your stack is more like a tree. 2015-10-01T20:01:34Z Bicyclidine: a spaghetti control stack, no? 2015-10-01T20:01:37Z resttime: Isn't there an "accumulation" of calls though? 2015-10-01T20:01:44Z dlowe: which leads to its own craziness, but it does mean you have to have heap-allocated stacks 2015-10-01T20:02:02Z dlowe: they get GCd as necessary 2015-10-01T20:03:02Z resttime: Hmmm, I think my mental model is borked for continuations then 2015-10-01T20:03:39Z resttime: *broke 2015-10-01T20:04:11Z Bicyclidine: try implementing them, it helps 2015-10-01T20:04:31Z dwchandler: resttime: "borked" is cromulent 2015-10-01T20:05:59Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:06:10Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-01T20:06:12Z resttime: Bicyclidine: okay I will, it's just that I see an example for factorial and figure that it still needs to "remember" the function calls until the end 2015-10-01T20:06:35Z resttime: dwchandler: lol i'm surprised 2015-10-01T20:06:43Z resttime: though I used the word wrong 2015-10-01T20:06:58Z Bicyclidine: with the model dlowe explained, you'd have your control "stack" essentially on the heap, so you're not gonna run out of stack space. you can still of course run out of heap space 2015-10-01T20:07:09Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:07:27Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:07:30Z resttime: Bicyclidine: Ah, I think that explains it for me 2015-10-01T20:07:48Z resttime: So it's "blowing" the heap 2015-10-01T20:07:55Z Bicyclidine: obviously continuations don't let you run arbitrarily long computations on finite computers :) 2015-10-01T20:08:37Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:09:04Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:10:14Z resttime: Hmmm, I guess I need to look more into that since I think my mental model also "conflates" heap and stack into the "same thing" 2015-10-01T20:10:59Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:11:00Z Bicyclidine: oh, those are just memory management terms. 2015-10-01T20:11:06Z Bicyclidine: you know any C? 2015-10-01T20:11:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:11:28Z resttime: Yeah 2015-10-01T20:11:34Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:11:45Z Bicyclidine: well, not that it matters. for the stack, you allocate memory by increasing an integer pointing to where there's no more space; deallocating things partway down the stack is pointless. 's just FIFO. 2015-10-01T20:12:31Z Bicyclidine: heap is where you allocate blocks whenever and deallocate them whenever. that's C malloc/free or lisp cons/GC. generally much more involved. 2015-10-01T20:13:04Z Bicyclidine: they're both using the same RAM on any computer one would bother to think about, but usually the stack is much smaller, and trying to increase the stack top too much results in a page fault or something 2015-10-01T20:13:21Z resttime: Ahh, and LAMBDA creates the function in the heap? 2015-10-01T20:13:26Z Fare: Bicyclidine: have you looked into Rust's region management? 2015-10-01T20:13:37Z Bicyclidine: nope, why? 2015-10-01T20:13:44Z Fare: resttime: unless the function is guaranteed not to escape, yes 2015-10-01T20:14:00Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:14:13Z Bicyclidine: resttime: a thing with lisp is that it's often not as explicit as C in this area, so cons or lambda or whatever might be put on the stack if the compiler thinks that's better 2015-10-01T20:14:23Z Bicyclidine: declare dynamic-extent and all 2015-10-01T20:14:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:14:36Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T20:15:02Z Fare wonders if you can use the debugger's introspection to cause values to escape that were stack-allocated, thereby causing mayhem. 2015-10-01T20:15:51Z resttime: Though in this case it does, I think I understand now 2015-10-01T20:16:17Z resttime: The operating system managaes the stack size? 2015-10-01T20:16:31Z resttime: Err, sets the stack size 2015-10-01T20:16:42Z Bicyclidine: i think it's the runtime. maybe. 2015-10-01T20:16:58Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:17:35Z Bicyclidine: sbcl has a --control-stack-size option. yeah, runtime-independent stack control would be weird. 2015-10-01T20:18:55Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:19:23Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:19:26Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T20:19:33Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:19:53Z Bicyclidine: i googled "rust region management" and got some articles about soybean rust. figures. 2015-10-01T20:20:30Z resttime: Alright thanks you two, my mental model is updated 2015-10-01T20:20:47Z Bicyclidine: this looks pretty cool. 2015-10-01T20:20:55Z anthracite joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:21:03Z duggiefresh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T20:21:51Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:28:18Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T20:29:00Z empedokles is now known as empedokles78 2015-10-01T20:32:04Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:32:40Z empedokles78 quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-01T20:32:52Z empedokles78 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:37:46Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:38:22Z warweasle quit (Quit: Because I can.) 2015-10-01T20:39:06Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:40:20Z tifa joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:42:14Z Yanez quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T20:42:25Z lispne-w quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T20:42:39Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T20:43:20Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-01T20:45:15Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:45:18Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-10-01T20:46:37Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T20:46:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:47:04Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:49:26Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:49:52Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:52:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:53:18Z logand joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:55:00Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T20:57:21Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T20:58:43Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-01T20:59:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T21:05:32Z anthracite quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-01T21:05:56Z Guest50408 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-01T21:06:19Z sellout joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:06:40Z sellout is now known as Guest52291 2015-10-01T21:08:10Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:08:22Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:09:42Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T21:10:15Z empedokles78: Is LISP these days merely a scientific endavour? 2015-10-01T21:11:08Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:11:32Z andreh_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:11:34Z mood: empedokles78: No 2015-10-01T21:12:00Z andreh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T21:15:17Z andreh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:16:14Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:16:48Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T21:17:18Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:17:29Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:18:01Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:18:01Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T21:18:08Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:18:50Z jcmdln quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:20:03Z larme joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:21:12Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:21:31Z nell joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:23:27Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:27:22Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:28:59Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-01T21:31:30Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:32:09Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:33:40Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:35:48Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:38:29Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:38:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:40:05Z moredhel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:41:39Z martinhath quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:42:22Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:44:27Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-01T21:44:41Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:45:27Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-01T21:45:33Z empedokles78: mood: Do you have any examples of software written in lisp? 2015-10-01T21:48:26Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:49:22Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:49:36Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:49:40Z Fare: empedokles78, Google Flights 2015-10-01T21:50:13Z Fare: American Express's fraud detection expert system 2015-10-01T21:50:37Z Bicyclidine: for the record, here in science we mostly use cargo culted matlab 2015-10-01T21:50:48Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T21:51:49Z Shinmera: Matlab makes me sad. 2015-10-01T21:52:01Z Bicyclidine: it's good at making people sad 2015-10-01T21:52:16Z Bicyclidine: computer science, they mostly seem to use MLoids. 2015-10-01T21:52:36Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:53:47Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:54:48Z martinhath joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:56:22Z dwchandler: the plantary geo people seem to like IDL (Interactive Data Language) :/ 2015-10-01T21:56:41Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T21:56:50Z Bicyclidine: hey, shit, i just heard about that the other day. astronomy dude said it was all that and i was so confused, never heard of it, figured they used fortran77 like half of physics 2015-10-01T21:57:25Z p_l: Bicyclidine: worse, at least some astronomical pursuits use an OS written in Fortran77 2015-10-01T21:57:34Z dwchandler: idl has a lot of fortran-like syntax 2015-10-01T21:57:36Z Bicyclidine: nice. 2015-10-01T21:57:50Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-01T21:58:12Z p_l: D-wave uses CL in their quantum computer (with SBCL) 2015-10-01T21:58:17Z Shinmera 's dad is a prof at ETH and writes all his software in Fortran still 2015-10-01T21:58:28Z dwchandler: last job, I actually was handed some f77 to see if I could get it working 2015-10-01T21:58:42Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T21:58:50Z p_l: Franz makes inroads in big data weenies with Hadoop-exploiting AllegroGraph 2015-10-01T21:58:54Z Bicyclidine: i wish i wasn't so skeptical about dwave, cos it would be kinda neat to look at and such 2015-10-01T21:59:42Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-01T22:00:52Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T22:05:25Z duggiefresh quit 2015-10-01T22:05:25Z _main_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:06:12Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:07:36Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:10:11Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T22:10:59Z _main_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:12:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:13:55Z empedokles78: Didn't knew Google Flights, sure it isn't Python? 2015-10-01T22:14:10Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:14:25Z Bicyclidine: they bought it from some other company, i believe 2015-10-01T22:14:41Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:14:55Z empedokles78: Again. 2015-10-01T22:15:43Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:15:44Z Bicyclidine: yeah, ita software. 2015-10-01T22:16:41Z add^_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T22:16:50Z add^_ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:17:59Z empedokles78: Good I finally found this IRC channel. 2015-10-01T22:18:04Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:18:27Z empedokles78: I've got myself a copy of little Schemer 2015-10-01T22:18:52Z Bicyclidine: this channel is about common lisp, just so you know. scheme's got its own channel. 2015-10-01T22:19:07Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:20:09Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:21:00Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:21:09Z empedokles78: I might look it up, but I guess I have to adopt that book for common lisp. 2015-10-01T22:21:41Z Bicyclidine: i think someone rewrote SICP to be more common lispy, at least. 2015-10-01T22:22:37Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:22:40Z empedokles78: I heard nothing good about this book. 2015-10-01T22:23:18Z empedokles78: Might scheme be a more scientific endavour? 2015-10-01T22:23:45Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:24:02Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:24:03Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:24:05Z rme: The cliché is that Scheme is a diamond, and that CL is a ball of mud. 2015-10-01T22:24:07Z Bicyclidine: i wasn't kidding when i said science is mostly using regurgitated script hacks 2015-10-01T22:25:19Z Bicyclidine: there's "real world" scheme software as well; alterations of it are used as scripting in other systems a lot (javascript was originally going to be scheme), stuff like that 2015-10-01T22:25:46Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:26:18Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:26:29Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T22:27:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:27:32Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:28:04Z zwdr: I dunno, don't think that's the case anymore 2015-10-01T22:28:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:28:15Z zwdr: Racket, for example, is real-world usable 2015-10-01T22:28:41Z zwdr: its mostly in the libs innit 2015-10-01T22:28:46Z empedokles78: @rme: Why is that? 2015-10-01T22:29:06Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:30:01Z zwdr: I believe it's a lisp-1 vs. lisp-2 thing 2015-10-01T22:30:11Z zwdr: but not sure 2015-10-01T22:30:41Z empedokles78: I've installed DrRacket and somebody helped me to install Emacs/CL. So far none of them have been very easy to use. 2015-10-01T22:31:06Z oGMo: eh, i think it's more scheme is more "uniform" and all that, and CL.. isn't. personally i find scheme sterile and unpleasant, but it's definitely personal preference 2015-10-01T22:31:26Z zwdr: I agree with Emacs having a steep learning courve, but what's difficult about DrRacket? 2015-10-01T22:31:27Z oGMo: also i find lisp-1 silly, but that's different 2015-10-01T22:31:29Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:31:50Z Bicyclidine: empedokles78: cos CL has like forty functions for priting numbers with the right spacing and scheme doesn't. way more muddy 2015-10-01T22:32:31Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T22:32:33Z zwdr: what do you find silly about lisp-1 oGMo? 2015-10-01T22:32:42Z zwdr: Most people I talk with prefer lisp-1 to lisp-2 2015-10-01T22:32:48Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T22:32:50Z empedokles78: But Scheme still could be used for everything CL is used these days? 2015-10-01T22:32:54Z zwdr: so I'm interested in the other side of the discussion 2015-10-01T22:33:05Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T22:33:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:34:05Z rme: zwdr: I think that's part of the reason why they re-named it "Racket". I believe that they felt that the name Scheme had a minimalist connotation, and they 1.) didn't want people to think that their system was minimalist, and 2.) they didn't want their (fancy, extended ) system to define what Scheme ought to be. 2015-10-01T22:34:13Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:34:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:34:59Z Fare: Racket does so much stuff these days 2015-10-01T22:35:35Z zwdr: Mmmh, could be rme. Personally, I don't think minimalism should mean having an empty toolbox 2015-10-01T22:35:36Z oGMo: zwdr: it's a matter of perspective and utility; if you don't view symbols as ephemeral lexical variables, but first-class objects, and you don't want to constantly worry about name clashes, lisp-2 makes a lot more sense 2015-10-01T22:35:59Z PuercoPop: rme: it does depart from the scheme standard in some (minimal) ways. For example one can't set! cons cells 2015-10-01T22:36:08Z empedokles78: I fired up Racket: Under select language quite a bunch appear. And some selection box with "teaching languages" (this is translated, the translation isn't very good by the way) 2015-10-01T22:36:19Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:36:33Z Fare: there is a r6rs compatibility mode 2015-10-01T22:36:53Z Fare: empedokles78, I'm sure they accept patches 2015-10-01T22:37:07Z zwdr: Yea, that makes sense oGMo, thanks. 2015-10-01T22:37:44Z empedokles78: The point was more, that I find that dialogue confusing. The other selection box seems it's sort of a tutorial on the language. 2015-10-01T22:37:56Z zwdr: PuercoPop: as far as I know, it also doesn't implement call/cc as it is specified in the standard 2015-10-01T22:37:58Z Fare: oGMo: porque no los dos? 2015-10-01T22:38:21Z Fare: zwdr: I'm pretty sure Racket has call/cc 2015-10-01T22:38:34Z oGMo: zwdr: it makes more sense if you think about it as whether a hash-key named FOO should collide with a variable named FOO, and if not, that's more or less lisp-2 2015-10-01T22:38:38Z PuercoPop: Yeah, it has a lot of #lang's. They are also take the time to document their code. The only thing that I don't like very much about racket is that writing software on it feels much more 'batch oriented' than interactive. 2015-10-01T22:38:39Z oGMo: Fare: ? 2015-10-01T22:38:42Z empedokles78: oGMo: Over my head. 2015-10-01T22:39:41Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T22:39:47Z PuercoPop: zwdr: They do delimited continuations, so you mark up to where the continuation captures the program. Seems like a good idea to me. 2015-10-01T22:39:53Z zwdr: Yea it does Fare 2015-10-01T22:40:12Z zwdr: I think it was unlimited continuations they dont have 2015-10-01T22:40:19Z zwdr: aaah, I don't remember 2015-10-01T22:40:51Z empedokles78: I don't get the difference between selecting "The language Racket (ctl-R)" and learning languages (ctl-T)", with the later there is a title called "how to design programs" 2015-10-01T22:42:27Z mood: empedokles78: How to design programs is a book by the creators of Racket 2015-10-01T22:43:10Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T22:43:47Z zwdr: I guess it's a consequence of the emphasis on creating (DS)Ls in Racket 2015-10-01T22:44:14Z zwdr: SICP and HTDP both teach that kind of progamming style 2015-10-01T22:44:15Z mood: I think the book includes custom languages, which you can select through there 2015-10-01T22:44:38Z zwdr: yea, there's also a few other languages implemented on top of Racket and included 2015-10-01T22:44:43Z zwdr: Like Typed Racket 2015-10-01T22:44:43Z empedokles78: mood: I had the impression, is it stored anywhere inside racket or is it just the dialect that book uses? 2015-10-01T22:45:28Z zwdr: its more of a subset than a dialect 2015-10-01T22:45:31Z PuercoPop: empedokles78: Racket is a language and a ''language creation platform'. So you select what language you are using. For example there is mini-pascal (https://github.com/soegaard/minipascal) 2015-10-01T22:45:32Z mood: I honestly have no idea 2015-10-01T22:45:35Z zwdr: got HTDP here :s 2015-10-01T22:45:35Z ajf- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T22:46:37Z mood: It's also readable online: http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/ 2015-10-01T22:47:06Z zwdr: "DrScheme implements several carefully chosen sublanguages of Scheme. Based on this arrangement, the environment can signal error messages that are appropiate to the students level." 2015-10-01T22:47:33Z zwdr: uh yeah... its in the introduction 2015-10-01T22:49:08Z empedokles78: Thanks for the link. That's the guy who wrote Little Schemer. 2015-10-01T22:49:49Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T22:51:08Z rme: In Days of Yore, that book was called the Little Lisper. It didn't teach a programming language; it taught recursive thinking. I don't know if the Little Schemer is the same or different. 2015-10-01T22:51:42Z empedokles78: Racket might be an easier start than using Emacs then. It's the same book in it's fourth edition. 2015-10-01T22:51:44Z dwchandler: it's pretty much the same 2015-10-01T22:52:19Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:52:47Z PuercoPop: rme: It is, it was just renamed. I think newer versions also have the equivalent code to run in common lisp 2015-10-01T22:53:05Z PuercoPop: rme: the 'divide and conquer' approach to problem solving 2015-10-01T22:53:25Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:53:26Z zygentoma quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-01T22:53:43Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-01T22:53:54Z empedokles78: Are there GUIs like Tkinter (in the Python world)? 2015-10-01T22:54:45Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-01T22:56:26Z rme: PuercoPop: It's been a while since I read it. I remember if was fun. 2015-10-01T23:00:59Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T23:01:42Z Fare: rme: do you think that static linking trick is doable with ccl ? 2015-10-01T23:03:34Z resttime: empedokles78: none that I know of unless that's CLIM which doesn't have much support outside of the commercial implementations of common lisp 2015-10-01T23:04:10Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T23:04:12Z resttime: there are bindings to GUI libraries though, GTK, Tk, Qt 2015-10-01T23:04:25Z rme: Fare: I don't see why it woudln't be possible to link with some additional libs when building, say, lx86cl64. I tried the obvious way to make libccl.a, but the linker didn't like the object files produced by some of the .s files. 2015-10-01T23:04:41Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-01T23:04:54Z zwdr: well I dont want to talk about Racket again, but it has a GUI framework. . . 2015-10-01T23:05:23Z rme: Fare: I'm not interested enough in the problem to explore it in my free time, though, I have to admit. 2015-10-01T23:05:49Z zwdr: (which DrRacket was written in) 2015-10-01T23:05:50Z resttime: Whoops, to clarify I'm reffering to Common Lisp 2015-10-01T23:07:54Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:09:27Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:09:34Z Fare: rme: OK. Maybe you needed -Wl,--whole-archive 2015-10-01T23:09:39Z Fare: but fair enough 2015-10-01T23:10:01Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:10:45Z Fare: (by default, the linker tries to not include .o files that are not explicitly required) 2015-10-01T23:11:10Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-01T23:11:12Z kanru` joined #lisp 2015-10-01T23:13:31Z empedokles78: Okay, thanks, I'll call it a day and will try to find that Racket IRC channel tomorrow^ 2015-10-01T23:14:03Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-01T23:14:43Z ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy 2015-10-01T23:14:54Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T23:14:54Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2015-10-01T23:14:55Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2015-10-01T23:15:14Z Denommus quit (Quit: goin ghome) 2015-10-01T23:16:04Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-01T23:17:51Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-10-01T23:19:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:23:43Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:26:48Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-01T23:27:32Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-01T23:30:28Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2-dev) 2015-10-01T23:38:04Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-01T23:40:26Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-01T23:43:29Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2015-10-01T23:44:12Z pillton: Fare: I saw your patch to make libsbcl.a. 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Either quickloading qtools manually first, or removing all my projects from your local-projects should fix that. 2015-10-02T03:04:33Z loke: There is both GTK and QT libraries for CL. I don't know which one is the most mature though. 2015-10-02T03:04:42Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:05:14Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:05:55Z smokeink: i've played with the QT ones . i wanted to try gtk as well but couldn't find any working one 2015-10-02T03:06:40Z loke: smokeink: I did a tiny amount of testing of the GTK interface, and it seemed functional for the basic stuff I did (which was limited to opening a window with a button in it, or something to that effect) 2015-10-02T03:07:08Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:07:10Z badkins quit 2015-10-02T03:10:15Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:11:10Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-02T03:13:47Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:13:52Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T03:17:18Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-02T03:19:08Z smokeink: regarding my above paste, i had to delete this folder /home/smokeink/quicklisp/local-projects/sbcl-win32-threads/ 2015-10-02T03:24:08Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T03:24:54Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-02T03:24:56Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:25:13Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-02T03:34:01Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-02T03:35:38Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-02T03:37:22Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T03:38:07Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:42:27Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-02T03:43:29Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:48:53Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:52:45Z zacts|pi joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:53:30Z psy quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-02T03:54:20Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T03:54:25Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T04:01:42Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:03:12Z zacts|pi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T04:05:47Z zacts|pi joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:10:04Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-02T04:10:59Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T04:12:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:15:12Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:16:01Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-02T04:23:19Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:23:26Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-02T04:23:50Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-02T04:24:19Z smokeink: good morning 2015-10-02T04:26:32Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:28:54Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:29:20Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-02T04:30:58Z beach: nyef: Are you considering helping drmeister write a better bclasp compiler? 2015-10-02T04:31:56Z nyef: I'm considering it, yes. 2015-10-02T04:32:29Z beach: What ideas do you have for making it better? 2015-10-02T04:34:18Z nyef: I was figuring to start with the basics. Split it into a two-phase system with an IR, do some physical environment analysis to get rid of the god-awful interpreter environment structures, and then see where to go from there. 2015-10-02T04:35:03Z nyef: Just getting proper physical environment analysis in there, even if it has to heap-allocate every single closure, should help. 2015-10-02T04:35:27Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:35:55Z beach: I trust you. I haven't really looked at what he is doing at the moment. 2015-10-02T04:37:15Z b0f joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:38:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-02T04:40:04Z smokeink: minion: memo for Shinmera: http://pastecode.ru/0c04c/ 2015-10-02T04:40:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-02T04:41:38Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:41:48Z johs joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:44:32Z PuercoPop: Is there a downside to using shadowing-import-from when a symbol is not being shadowed? 2015-10-02T04:45:54Z beach: No 2015-10-02T04:46:13Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T04:46:31Z PuercoPop: that's what I thought, thanks beach. 2015-10-02T04:46:43Z beach: Anytime. 2015-10-02T04:46:55Z raphaelss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T04:49:55Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T04:50:32Z smokeink: does anyone else get utf8 c-string decoding error when evaluating (DIRECTORY #P"libsmokebase.so" :RESOLVE-SYMLINKS T) ? 2015-10-02T04:50:57Z smokeink brb 2015-10-02T04:51:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-02T04:56:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:05:49Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-02T05:08:30Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-02T05:09:23Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/8983c/ my locale is LANG=zh_TW.utf8 2015-10-02T05:10:13Z b0f left #lisp 2015-10-02T05:14:26Z nikki93 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-02T05:14:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:15:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T05:24:33Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-02T05:26:30Z zacts|pi quit 2015-10-02T05:29:12Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-02T05:30:09Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-02T05:35:41Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-02T05:35:41Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-02T05:41:05Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:42:57Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-02T05:43:13Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:44:34Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:46:54Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:51:15Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T05:56:45Z logand joined #lisp 2015-10-02T05:59:35Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-02T05:59:56Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:03:56Z gensym joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:04:31Z smokeink: hmm not sure what was happening, that error is gone now after i ran (ql:register-local-projects) 2015-10-02T06:04:50Z c74d3a quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T06:06:57Z c74d3a joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:07:16Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:08:32Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:11:16Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:12:12Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:14:58Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:16:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:16:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:18:01Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:19:25Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:21:21Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:22:46Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:22:55Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-02T06:23:09Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:24:14Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:24:53Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:25:02Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:27:11Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:29:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:31:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:36:06Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T06:36:06Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:39:19Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:39:24Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:44:12Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T06:44:37Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:44:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:53:30Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-02T06:58:15Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:07:13Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-02T07:07:23Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:10:50Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:12:12Z loke: smokeink: The file may be a symlink that contains an illegal UTF-8 string. 2015-10-02T07:19:00Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:20:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:20:55Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:21:39Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:22:04Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:23:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:29:50Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T07:49:35Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:51:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:58:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-02T07:58:45Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T07:59:43Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:01:22Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-02T08:04:33Z zyg joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:13:23Z smokeink quit (Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org) 2015-10-02T08:15:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:15:24Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:20:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:22:13Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T08:23:18Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T08:23:40Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:34:29Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:34:38Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:35:03Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:36:47Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T08:37:42Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-02T08:38:36Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-02T08:40:28Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T08:43:02Z pjb: minion: memo for warweasle: arnesi contains the required code (delimited continuations) for you to imlpement running function serialization/deserialization. 2015-10-02T08:43:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasle when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-02T08:46:09Z pjb: minion: memo for warweasle: if you want to save a closure, then you need to include in the closure the saving method. cf. make-load-form make-load-form-saving-slots 2015-10-02T08:46:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasle when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-02T08:46:52Z pjb: minion: memo for warweasle: if you want to save documents as code, see Patchwork or Gsharp for two different examples. 2015-10-02T08:46:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasle when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-02T08:46:59Z taraz joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:47:14Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:51:17Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:52:14Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:52:48Z smokeink quit (Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org) 2015-10-02T08:54:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:54:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:55:58Z pjb: zwdr: emacs has a very flat learning curve. It'll take a life time to learn. 2015-10-02T08:56:30Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-02T08:57:03Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-02T08:59:20Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T09:00:37Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T09:00:46Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:00:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:00:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-02T09:00:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:01:10Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:05:14Z Cymew: pjb: But I found just running the tutorial a few times I was able to get going fairly quickly with the daily needs. Mastering emacs a while, yes. 2015-10-02T09:05:26Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It should automatically ignore those errors though. 2015-10-02T09:32:40Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T09:32:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:33:12Z smokeink: shinmera's asdf technique works well on linux for qt apps that don't use other foreign libraries. to be tested on windows 2015-10-02T09:33:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T09:34:14Z Shinmera: works on windows too, I tested it before. 2015-10-02T09:34:28Z pjb: PuercoPop: the definition of scheme (r5rs) is clearly batch oriented. There's very little support in the scheme standard for interactive use (image base development), contrarily to CL. 2015-10-02T09:35:08Z smokeink: Shinmera: awesome. i love how it collects all the required .so s in the output folder 2015-10-02T09:35:39Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T09:37:27Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:37:33Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:37:44Z qubitnerd quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-02T09:39:12Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:39:35Z smokeink: Shinmera: how about separating this deplying mechanism from qtools ? 2015-10-02T09:40:03Z smokeink: it can be a very convenient deployment mechanism even for apps that don't use qt 2015-10-02T09:40:16Z Shinmera: smokeink: As you know from the fact that it doesn't deal well with other foreign libraries than the Qt ones there's currently very little point in trying to separate it. 2015-10-02T09:40:29Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T09:41:10Z smokeink: i mean in the future when it'll be able to handle well all the foreign libraries 2015-10-02T09:41:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T09:41:13Z Shinmera: Otherwise you can just use asdf:program-op instead of "qt-program-op" in your ASD if you just want to use ASDF to dump it. 2015-10-02T09:42:11Z Shinmera: Once I have figured things out I might think about separating it. 2015-10-02T09:42:23Z Shinmera: But I'm busy with other things right now anyway. 2015-10-02T09:43:29Z loke joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:45:25Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T09:46:51Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:50:28Z durm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-02T09:51:52Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T09:53:26Z drl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T09:53:49Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-02T09:54:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-02T09:56:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T10:00:25Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:00:42Z ski____ is now known as ski 2015-10-02T10:02:06Z empedokles78 quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-02T10:06:07Z drl_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:07:22Z ralt: hi 2015-10-02T10:07:31Z ralt: why do I need funcall there? this fai 2015-10-02T10:07:34Z ralt: whoops 2015-10-02T10:07:42Z ralt: I mean here http://paste.lisp.org/display/156181 2015-10-02T10:08:24Z jackdaniel: ralt: ((lambda () …)) is an exception from the rule 2015-10-02T10:08:35Z jackdaniel: generally first argument isn't evaluated 2015-10-02T10:08:42Z jackdaniel: first element of the list that is 2015-10-02T10:09:14Z ralt: jackdaniel: why? 2015-10-02T10:09:27Z ralt: I find it weird that almost everything is an expression... except this 2015-10-02T10:09:50Z jackdaniel: imagine (let ((x (lambda () foo))) (x)) ; does it call x as a variable or a function of name x ? if x were evaluated, then it would be a variable 2015-10-02T10:10:07Z jackdaniel: CL is lisp-n, that is it has many namespaces 2015-10-02T10:10:17Z jackdaniel: in scheme your code would be perfectly legal 2015-10-02T10:10:26Z jackdaniel: but in CL functions has a separate namespace 2015-10-02T10:10:31Z jackdaniel: have° 2015-10-02T10:11:07Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:11:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:11:12Z ralt: jackdaniel: namespaces? 2015-10-02T10:11:24Z ralt: I don't see how namespaces are related there... sorry 2015-10-02T10:13:10Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:13:17Z jackdaniel: if the first element of the list would be evaluated like "everything" then if you put there a symbol it would evaluate to variable content denoted by this symbol 2015-10-02T10:13:31Z jackdaniel: not to the function which is in separate namespace 2015-10-02T10:13:55Z ralt: jackdaniel: let me digest this 2015-10-02T10:19:08Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:19:43Z Guest79716 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:20:34Z ralt: jackdaniel: this explains why flet exists 2015-10-02T10:21:02Z ralt: I don't think I grok the concept of namespaces though, is there a link? 2015-10-02T10:21:13Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T10:21:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:22:05Z jackdaniel: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3328512/why-multiple-namespaces , literature maybe 2015-10-02T10:22:07Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:22:08Z jackdaniel: idk 2015-10-02T10:22:18Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:23:02Z jackdaniel: it's clearly described in Lisp In Small Pieces but this book isn't available on the internet to read 2015-10-02T10:23:44Z ralt: the SO link makes things clearer... thanks 2015-10-02T10:23:45Z Cymew: RPG's article linked to from stackoverflow is really good 2015-10-02T10:24:45Z zyg: Its me again. If you're mapping over a list and the mapping function needs access to next/prev, would you go for LOOP or DO (or something else)? 2015-10-02T10:25:17Z jackdaniel: depends on taste 2015-10-02T10:25:32Z Cymew: If you are mapping, you are already using, say, MAPCAR, are you not? 2015-10-02T10:25:40Z jackdaniel: most people will say LOOP, some will say DO, minority will advertise ITERATE and DO+ 2015-10-02T10:26:03Z jackdaniel: I'd go with DO personally 2015-10-02T10:26:07Z Cymew: Sorry, I'm just arguing semantics... 2015-10-02T10:26:08Z zyg: wait I need to clhs mapcar (i'm using LOOP but in a MAP fashion). 2015-10-02T10:26:32Z Cymew: But, MAPCAR and friends are good to know about 2015-10-02T10:28:19Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T10:28:20Z smokeink: again having that utf8 decode error .. can anyone reproduce it? (directory "/home/smokeink/")==>(#P"/home/smokeink/") , (directory "/home/smokeink/inexistentfile") ==> ; Evaluation aborted on # , (directory "/home/smokeink/inexistentdir/") ==> NIL 2015-10-02T10:28:56Z smokeink: supplying a path to an inexistent file crashes it 2015-10-02T10:29:01Z jackdaniel: zyg: you might consider using maplist 2015-10-02T10:29:25Z jackdaniel: and treating first element as "prev", second as "current" and third as "next" 2015-10-02T10:29:33Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-02T10:33:58Z zyg: jackdaniel: that was really clever :D though I would need MAPLIST for arrays 2015-10-02T10:34:38Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:34:46Z |3b|: smokeink: any characters in $PATH with char-code > 127 2015-10-02T10:35:27Z jackdaniel: zyg: creating macro for this wouldn't be a problem 2015-10-02T10:36:14Z loke: zyg: Or LOOP. Never dismiss LOOP. Everything is possible with LOOP. Your dreams are realised with LOOP. Only your imagination is the limit with LOOP. Welcome, to LOOP. The infinite is possible with LOOP. This is LOOP. Anything can be done with LOOP. Welcome to LOOP. The impossibility is made possible with LOOP. 2015-10-02T10:36:28Z |3b|: smokeink: alternately, what does the backtrace look like when you get that error? 2015-10-02T10:36:56Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T10:36:56Z smokeink: |3b|" hah, yes! some proggie has added to $PATH "no such file or directory" written in taiwaneze 2015-10-02T10:37:01Z Shinmera: loke: LOOPcom 2015-10-02T10:37:13Z loke: Shinmera: Fo fure 2015-10-02T10:37:15Z loke: Fo sure 2015-10-02T10:39:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:40:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:41:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:41:55Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:42:47Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:43:34Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-10-02T10:44:46Z ss1891 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:46:21Z RazWelles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T10:49:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:51:41Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-02T10:52:46Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:53:12Z haasn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:53:19Z pjb: Anything from (loop repeat 0) to (loop) thru (loop repeat 1 if (zerop (random 2)) then do (a) else do (b)) 2015-10-02T10:54:20Z smokeink: |3b|: no, that was not it. i should have typed echo $PATH instead of just $PATH . no strange characters in the $PATH . Here is a backtrace http://pastecode.ru/cbedc/ 2015-10-02T10:54:56Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T10:55:51Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:55:53Z smokeink: echo $PATH ==> /home/smokeink/.shelly/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/lib/jvm/default/bin:/usr/bin/site_perl:/usr/bin/vendor_perl:/usr/bin/core_perl 2015-10-02T10:57:12Z snv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-02T10:57:34Z Cymew: loke: LOOP is kind of unnessesary when we have FORMAT, right? 2015-10-02T10:57:34Z loke: smokeink: What is the content of *default-pathname-defaults* ? 2015-10-02T10:57:46Z loke: Cymew: Almost :-) 2015-10-02T10:57:52Z Cymew: :) 2015-10-02T10:58:02Z loke: Cymew: LOOP and FORMAT is essentially computing nirvana 2015-10-02T10:58:22Z Cymew: Almost... 2015-10-02T10:58:29Z smokeink: #P"/home/smokeink/" 2015-10-02T10:58:43Z smokeink: that's my *default-pathname-defaults* 2015-10-02T10:58:52Z |3b|: smokeink: do you get an error from (directory "/home/smokeink/*")? 2015-10-02T10:59:13Z smokeink: yes 2015-10-02T10:59:41Z smokeink: the same error 2015-10-02T11:00:01Z smokeink brb 5 min 2015-10-02T11:00:44Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-02T11:00:52Z keen___________2 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:02:03Z keen___________1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-02T11:02:37Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:03:04Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:05:25Z iced_coughee joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:06:32Z |3b|: smokeink: probably some filename with non-utf8 encoding in your home dir 2015-10-02T11:06:58Z pjb: on posix systems, filenames don't have encoding. They are sequences of octets (excluding 0 and 47). 2015-10-02T11:07:36Z pjb: That (directory "/home/smokeink/*") is a bug in the implementation. 2015-10-02T11:07:39Z |3b|: right, which is why trying to convert them to lisp filenames tends to fail once you get beyond trivial cases :/ 2015-10-02T11:08:12Z |3b|: since people store strings in them with encodings, then expect to be able to extract them as such 2015-10-02T11:08:13Z pjb: It is acceptable that an implementation is not able to access all the files of a system, given the restrictions on logical pathnames, and the possible implentation defined restrictions on physical pathnames. 2015-10-02T11:08:23Z pjb: But it is not acceptable that it returns nothing. 2015-10-02T11:08:25Z |3b| agrees it could handle the case better 2015-10-02T11:08:31Z |3b|: it doesn't return nothing, it errors 2015-10-02T11:08:45Z pjb: This is what I mean. by "return nothing". It is unacceptable. 2015-10-02T11:09:11Z pjb: |3b|: to return means something very specific. Signaling an error is not returning something. 2015-10-02T11:10:06Z |3b| is confused now, since that was my point 2015-10-02T11:10:23Z pjb: People are not always antagonistic. 2015-10-02T11:11:09Z rotty quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3-dev) 2015-10-02T11:11:12Z |3b| wasn't confused by antagonistic or not, but whether it was intended to add something, or correct something 2015-10-02T11:12:10Z pjb: |3b|: you clearly have understanding problem and demonstrate inability to compute the difference between what I said and what you said and to find what I bring to the discussion. 2015-10-02T11:12:16Z |3b|: first you said "that's what i mean", implying you were being informal, which i'll accept... but then you said it means something specific other than what you said, implying you don't accept such informality 2015-10-02T11:12:20Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T11:12:29Z |3b|: right, which is why i'm confused and hoped for clarofocation 2015-10-02T11:12:33Z |3b|: *clarification 2015-10-02T11:12:57Z pjb: |3b|: Yes, I was informal. I informally said you were an idiot to think that signaling an error was a kind of returning something. 2015-10-02T11:13:27Z pjb: I'm a little fed up to have to expand 10 times what I'm saying. Try to get smarter and understand. 2015-10-02T11:13:34Z |3b|: what did i say that suggested i thought that? 2015-10-02T11:13:52Z pjb: Is it because suggested you thought that that you came to me? 2015-10-02T11:15:19Z smokeink back 2015-10-02T11:15:42Z splittist: thank goodness 2015-10-02T11:15:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T11:17:13Z jeaye: Are there any typed environments for CL which offer features such as the appropriate equal predicate usage? 2015-10-02T11:19:14Z smokeink: i deleted some invalid symlinks and files with really strange filenames from my ~/ and now (directory "/home/smokeink/*") works as expected, it returns a list with pathnames 2015-10-02T11:20:15Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T11:20:27Z smokeink: and now (directory "/home/smokeink/inexistentfile") returns nil so problem seems pretty much solved 2015-10-02T11:21:06Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T11:21:59Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:22:03Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:22:40Z gz quit (Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T11:22:41Z XachX quit (Input/output error) 2015-10-02T11:24:32Z smokeink: so how should sbcl handle that case when there's an invalid symlink or a file with a strange name? 2015-10-02T11:25:03Z nopf joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:26:59Z splittist: smokeink: not answering your question, but what does uiop:directory* give? 2015-10-02T11:28:20Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T11:28:48Z smokeink: (uiop::directory* "/home/smokeink/") ==> (#P"/home/smokeink/") 2015-10-02T11:30:21Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:31:11Z splittist: (uiop::directory-files *)? 2015-10-02T11:32:47Z smokeink: it returns a list with the files in ~/ 2015-10-02T11:33:22Z splittist: smokeink: sorry for treating you like a repl (: 2015-10-02T11:35:04Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:35:10Z smokeink: no need to apologise 2015-10-02T11:35:38Z smokeink: you can't apologise to a repl 2015-10-02T11:35:43Z smokeink: :D 2015-10-02T11:36:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T11:39:59Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:41:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:42:21Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T11:43:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:45:23Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-02T11:52:00Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:53:45Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-10-02T11:59:34Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-02T12:00:26Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-02T12:06:28Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-10-02T12:08:02Z viaken2 is now known as Viaken 2015-10-02T12:08:51Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've added (:also-exclude "sbcl" "disabled-systems") to ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/00-excluded-systems.conf. but then when I print asdf::*source-registry-exclusions* they are not added. any ideas? 2015-10-02T14:42:37Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:42:47Z dwrngr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T14:45:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T14:45:32Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:46:04Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:47:15Z attila_lendvai: hrm, looks like that's by design, it's only remembered while processing the config, but then I don't understand why systems get loaded from a dir with a name that is listed there 2015-10-02T14:48:43Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:49:00Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:49:18Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-02T14:49:29Z smokeink: Shinmera: i figured out, it's something to do with long paths. changing to (uiop:dump-image "c:\\shortpath.exe" made it go through 2015-10-02T14:49:43Z Shinmera: smokeink: :S 2015-10-02T14:49:57Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:49:58Z Shinmera: smokeink: Might be worth reporting to SBCL as a bug if you can reproduce it more cleanly. 2015-10-02T14:49:59Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:50:19Z smokeink: yes, that's what i was about to do 2015-10-02T14:50:43Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T14:50:49Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-02T14:51:06Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:51:17Z splittist: smokeink: paths with spaces or '&' chars? 2015-10-02T14:51:36Z smokeink: this is the path E:\lisp\projects\simple-app\bin\simple-app.exe 2015-10-02T14:52:18Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-02T14:53:07Z splittist: Oh. 2015-10-02T14:53:16Z smokeink: just run this (uiop:dump-image "E:\\lisp\\projects\\simple-app\\bin\\simple-app.exe" :executable T) 2015-10-02T14:54:19Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:54:42Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-02T14:54:59Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-02T14:55:12Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:55:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-02T14:57:57Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-02T15:00:06Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-02T15:01:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-02T15:03:13Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-02T15:04:19Z elimik31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T15:05:10Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-02T15:09:59Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T15:11:55Z grouzen quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-02T15:12:07Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-02T15:13:39Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-02T15:14:06Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T15:15:59Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T15:25:39Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Keep in mind the idiomatic name for a constructor is make-* 2015-10-02T17:29:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:29:51Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T17:30:40Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:30:43Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:32:21Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T17:32:24Z joga_ is now known as joga 2015-10-02T17:32:38Z epitron joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:32:39Z joga quit (Changing host) 2015-10-02T17:32:39Z joga joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:32:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-02T17:34:52Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:34:53Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:35:10Z Shinmera: I put constructor stuff in an initialize-instance :after usually. 2015-10-02T17:37:10Z Xach feels like he should use shared-initialize more 2015-10-02T17:38:35Z pyon: Please correct me if I'm wrong: `initialize-instance :after` is somewhat like C++-style construction, where superclass constructors always run exactly once before subclass ones, whereas `initialize-instance :around` is somewhat like Java-style construction, where subclasses can control when or even whether superclass constructors are used at all. 2015-10-02T17:39:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:40:06Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-02T17:42:05Z dlowe: pyon: I think if you view in those terms, it will lead you astray 2015-10-02T17:42:22Z pyon: What's a better way to think about it? 2015-10-02T17:42:22Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T17:42:59Z dlowe: well, for one, using initialize-instance is a *lot* less common than using a constructor 2015-10-02T17:43:56Z dlowe: secondly, the standard method combination happens in a manner that isn't isolated to initialize-instance 2015-10-02T17:44:02Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:44:12Z dlowe: whereas there's special secret sauce for constructors in both C++ and Java 2015-10-02T17:44:45Z pyon: Ah, I didn't intend to suggest that method combinations are exclusive to `initialize-instance` (or any other specific method). I'm aware that they work for any method. 2015-10-02T17:44:53Z dlowe: third, initialize-instance isn't necessarily called by the system all the times you would like initialization code to be called 2015-10-02T17:45:06Z dlowe: sure, but that's not actually true for constructors 2015-10-02T17:45:07Z pyon: :-O 2015-10-02T17:45:21Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:45:35Z dlowe: so there's a difference that, despite a surface similarity, could potentially be misleading 2015-10-02T17:46:35Z pyon: So the best way is simply `(defun make-foo (blablabla...) blablabla... (make-instance 'foo blablabla...))` ? 2015-10-02T17:46:40Z dlowe: There's shared-initialize, which is called by the system-supplied initialize-instance, reinitialize-instance, update-instance-for-redefined-class, and update-instance-for-different-class. 2015-10-02T17:46:58Z pyon: :-O 2015-10-02T17:47:08Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:48:04Z dlowe: Depends on the problem, I guess. I've used make-foo more than defining shared-initialize. More often, the options in defclass are sufficient for all the initialization needs. 2015-10-02T17:48:29Z dlowe: But I come from the school of thought that constructors should only do the minimum to produce a valid object. 2015-10-02T17:49:08Z dlowe: and further operations should be done in calling code. Makes it a lot easier to write tests for, for one thing 2015-10-02T17:49:34Z PuercoPop: pyon: if you are passing the same blabla just use make-instance 2015-10-02T17:49:37Z pyon: I don't disagree - constructors should just construct. But sometimes classes have intricate invariants, and it doesn't make much sense to use just about any value for every slot. 2015-10-02T17:50:46Z pyon: So I guess what I want is just some validation and nontrivial initialization. 2015-10-02T17:51:00Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:51:12Z jackdaniel: hm, (defmethod construct ((class (find-class 'bah)) arg1 arg2 arg3) (check-type …))) ? 2015-10-02T17:51:24Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-02T17:52:24Z dlowe: jackdaniel: that's just pointless reinvention 2015-10-02T17:52:43Z dlowe: pyon: shared-initialize :after is probably what you want for validation 2015-10-02T17:52:57Z pyon: Ah! 2015-10-02T17:53:14Z jackdaniel isn't clos magic, just came up with bad prototype 2015-10-02T17:53:18Z dlowe: though it won't validate setf'd slots 2015-10-02T17:53:36Z dlowe: so you might want to write your own accessor functions, too 2015-10-02T17:53:56Z dlowe: and then, of course, you'll want to write a validation function. 2015-10-02T17:54:18Z jackdaniel: s/magic/magician/ 2015-10-02T17:54:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T17:54:28Z dlowe: but then to unit test the validation function, you'll need to make an invalid object, so it needs to not be in shared-initialize 2015-10-02T17:55:00Z jxv joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:55:07Z fp0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T17:56:10Z dlowe: I tell you what would be interesting would be some MOP magic to check-type all the slots every time they're set 2015-10-02T17:57:33Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:57:50Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:58:03Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:58:14Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:59:39Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-02T17:59:53Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:00:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:01:19Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:01:37Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:04:13Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-02T18:06:29Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:06:34Z pjb: Constructors are some how very bad for OO. Better define an initialize-instance or a shared-initialize method. 2015-10-02T18:06:49Z pjb: Constructors are very bad, because whatever they do won't be done on subclasses. 2015-10-02T18:07:34Z pjb: On the other hand, this should not prevent to write them and to specify API using them, notably when they select a concrete (existing) subclass in a class cluster pattern. 2015-10-02T18:07:42Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:13:16Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-02T18:15:06Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:18:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:19:51Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:20:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:22:25Z pjb: LANGSEC: Language-theoretic Security http://langsec.org/ 2015-10-02T18:22:26Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:24:26Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-02T18:26:35Z taraz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:29:28Z dlowe: yes. langsec is the most interesting idea to come around in a very long time 2015-10-02T18:30:00Z dlowe: I remember seeing the initial paper and thinking that it's going to revolutionize protocol design if it ever gets noticed. 2015-10-02T18:31:51Z pjb: Well, it's the combination of two ideas: validate your fucking input, and use a parser generator to parse the command language. 2015-10-02T18:32:34Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:32:43Z pjb: when combining both for input in a systematical way, you indeed get something nice. This idea is also potentially wrapped into the ideas of Alan Kay. 2015-10-02T18:32:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:32:59Z pjb: The point is: let's just do it! 2015-10-02T18:33:30Z dlowe: No, no. The salient point is "make the whole protocol parseable with a parser generator" 2015-10-02T18:33:51Z dlowe: Most internet protocols are not so parseable 2015-10-02T18:34:04Z pjb: This is the corrolary. 2015-10-02T18:34:24Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:34:30Z pjb: You might want to try it on the contrary, I think you'll find that a lot of them are. 2015-10-02T18:34:42Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:34:42Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-02T18:35:35Z dlowe: No, it is the fundamental. The corollary is "parser validation is doomed to be insecure if you have to write it by hand." 2015-10-02T18:36:09Z pjb: Alan Kay team implemented a TCP/IP stack just reading and interpreting the RFC themselves. 2015-10-02T18:36:17Z dlowe: Yes. Famously. 2015-10-02T18:36:22Z dlowe: So what? 2015-10-02T18:36:59Z pjb: so 1- you can write parsers for (some) existing protocols, 2- you can do it NOT by hand. 2015-10-02T18:39:14Z dlowe: 1 isn't contentious. My problem with 2 is that "not by hand" is insufficient (according to the langsec papers). You have to have an input that doesn't require a turing-complete grammar to validate. 2015-10-02T18:39:51Z dlowe: and I don't know if the Alan Kay team project qualifies there, but I suspect not 2015-10-02T18:40:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:41:08Z Fare: Shinmera, can you tell me about abcd ? 2015-10-02T18:41:18Z dlowe: abcd? 2015-10-02T18:41:22Z Shinmera: dlowe: MOPery to check-type automatically is pretty simple. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/CA# 2015-10-02T18:41:25Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-02T18:41:26Z pjb: dlowe: but unless we start doing it, there won't be any pressure to improve protocol design. 2015-10-02T18:41:35Z Fare: https://github.com/Shinmera/abcd 2015-10-02T18:41:36Z Shinmera: Fare: It's abandoned, but what do you want to know? 2015-10-02T18:41:50Z Fare: uh, what were the stumbling blocks wrt asdf 2015-10-02T18:42:00Z Fare: and if you're seriously building another build system 2015-10-02T18:42:16Z dlowe: pjb: yeah, it's definitely a recursive dependency problem. We actually used a grammar to interpret airline messages at ITA for one of our components 2015-10-02T18:42:30Z dlowe: but the airlines' code wouldn't conform, but we had to get it working anyway 2015-10-02T18:42:34Z Shinmera: It's been a while since I've done it, but it was just a massive pain to figure out a way to get ASDF to accept build flags and all that kind of jazz you normally want to be able to set easily in a C-type build system. 2015-10-02T18:42:44Z dlowe: so the grammar grew and grew to accomodate them 2015-10-02T18:42:48Z Fare: I mean, I'm painfully aware of the limitations of asdf, but I'm not sure which you ran into 2015-10-02T18:43:04Z Shinmera: The way components and operations interact are just too limited and jumbled for me to work well enough with it. 2015-10-02T18:43:05Z dlowe: because every protocol in the airline industry is subject to change on agreement of both partier 2015-10-02T18:43:06Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:43:10Z Fare: build flags are best added as options to your components. 2015-10-02T18:43:26Z Shinmera: That thrashes the possibility of build targets 2015-10-02T18:43:33Z Fare: how so? 2015-10-02T18:43:44Z Shinmera: Because you'd have to define a new system entirely for each target? 2015-10-02T18:44:36Z Fare: that would be one way of doing it, though "defining a new system" could be just one wrapping macro away 2015-10-02T18:44:51Z Shinmera: That's not my idea of ideal or clean. 2015-10-02T18:44:54Z Fare: asdf could also be fixed to handle options in operations better 2015-10-02T18:45:23Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:45:25Z Fare: so far it hasn't needed it, but the code was cleaned up enough during the asdf3 rewrite that it's not too hard. 2015-10-02T18:45:29Z Shinmera: Either way, I'm still rather serious about attempting to write another build system, though it will be a long while before I get to it, and I will do extensive research into other systems before attempting it. 2015-10-02T18:45:35Z pjb: dlowe: right. 2015-10-02T18:45:40Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:45:49Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:45:52Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:45:53Z Shinmera: Not just because ASDF gives me headaches, but also because the task in itself is interesting to me. 2015-10-02T18:46:00Z Fare: having written xcvb and asdf3, I have plenty of ideas regarding goals and pitfalls. 2015-10-02T18:46:16Z Shinmera: Right. I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts. 2015-10-02T18:46:18Z Fare: and bazel. 2015-10-02T18:46:26Z Fare: (well, a tiny part in bazel) 2015-10-02T18:46:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:46:30Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:46:35Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:47:10Z Fare: I suppose the main idea would be: "it's all a reactive functional on-demand/pull/lazy programming language" 2015-10-02T18:47:26Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:47:41Z Shinmera: That's what I heard from fe[nl]ix, but I can't really estimate what that would mean exactly without dealing with it myself first. 2015-10-02T18:47:52Z Fare: of course. 2015-10-02T18:47:57Z Shinmera: Unfortunately time is short with university and all :/ 2015-10-02T18:47:57Z Fare: "plan to throw away two" 2015-10-02T18:48:06Z Fare: which Uni are you at? 2015-10-02T18:48:10Z Shinmera: ETH Zürich 2015-10-02T18:48:16Z Fare: time will be even shorter afterwards! 2015-10-02T18:48:22Z Shinmera: I know :( 2015-10-02T18:48:25Z Fare: oh, so you've met fe[nl]ix in person. 2015-10-02T18:48:34Z Shinmera: Yeah we've been out a couple times. 2015-10-02T18:48:47Z Shinmera: I was also at ELS. 2015-10-02T18:49:13Z rme: I saw him there, so he's real. 2015-10-02T18:49:27Z Fare: xcvb was trying to do too much; it had too many DSLs, too many namespaces. 2015-10-02T18:49:30Z Shinmera: Help me, I'm alive! 2015-10-02T18:49:36Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:49:45Z Shinmera: Fare: It also tried to be backwards compatible with ASDF, from what I heard. 2015-10-02T18:49:50Z Fare: rme: he also has an imaginary part, he's complex. 2015-10-02T18:49:51Z Shinmera: Which seems to be a major stumbling block to me. 2015-10-02T18:50:11Z Fare: not exactly backwards compatible, but it had bridges both ways 2015-10-02T18:50:25Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-10-02T18:50:37Z Fare: bridges both ways is not that hard 2015-10-02T18:50:48Z Shinmera: Something like that seems necessary to me to incorporate it into the CL ecosystem and not start a revolt, yes. 2015-10-02T18:51:42Z dlowe: Shinmera: I don't understand what your fixed-type-class thing does here 2015-10-02T18:51:58Z Shinmera: dlowe: It automatically checks that the slots are of the specified type, like you wanted! 2015-10-02T18:52:03Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:52:28Z dlowe: Shinmera: it doesn't check that the slot *values* are of the specified type :p 2015-10-02T18:52:39Z Shinmera: ? Yes it does. 2015-10-02T18:52:53Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T18:53:48Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:53:57Z munge quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.3)) 2015-10-02T18:54:02Z Fare: Make, bazel, and many other build systems embrace the "filesystem is your namespace" strategy, which I suppose makes sense if you're building files. 2015-10-02T18:54:27Z dlowe: Shinmera: never mind. the interface is screwing me. 2015-10-02T18:54:34Z Shinmera: dlowe: :U 2015-10-02T18:54:38Z dlowe: Shinmera: only the top few lines were visible 2015-10-02T18:54:44Z Shinmera: dlowe: Oh. That's not right. 2015-10-02T18:54:54Z dlowe: I got it working. 2015-10-02T18:55:17Z Shinmera: I'm guessing you had JS blocked or something... I should fix that for non-JS scenarios. 2015-10-02T18:55:27Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:55:32Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T18:55:49Z dlowe: Shinmera: yeah, that looks good 2015-10-02T18:55:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-02T18:56:24Z Fare: asdf and xcvb have a namespace for system / component names, another namespace for filenames. xcvb even had another namespace for filename generation templates (where you're forbidden to reach the same filename two different ways). 2015-10-02T18:57:49Z Shinmera: dlowe: I pretty much copy-pasted the code for the finalizable-class from Qtools. MOP is sadly very boilerplate-heavy. 2015-10-02T18:59:01Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:00:50Z ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy 2015-10-02T19:01:07Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:03:33Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:04:04Z developernotes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T19:04:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:06:37Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:08:05Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:12:19Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:16:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:16:48Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: the file system as namespace is an easy sacrifice, given the benefits 2015-10-02T19:21:24Z xrash_ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:22:03Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T19:22:33Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:23:21Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T19:23:52Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:26:59Z core1 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:28:06Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:29:34Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T19:29:42Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:30:01Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, agreed 2015-10-02T19:30:31Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:30:31Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, except, especially on a distributed system, it's not really a file system, more like a virtual filesystem. 2015-10-02T19:30:57Z Fare: which only gets worse if you have multiple targets, etc. 2015-10-02T19:31:15Z Fare: xcvb had a mess for that, bazel has another one. 2015-10-02T19:31:19Z ggole quit 2015-10-02T19:31:26Z Fare: at least nixos has a solution 2015-10-02T19:31:34Z Fare: ugly, but universal 2015-10-02T19:32:18Z Fare realizes image-op looks broken on clisp 2015-10-02T19:33:07Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:33:21Z Fare: and that prevents my static-image-op from working 2015-10-02T19:33:36Z Fare realizes he doesn't know how to use the clisp linkkit, but fakes it 2015-10-02T19:33:58Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:35:55Z Raimondii quit (Quit: The road to wisdom?—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein) 2015-10-02T19:35:59Z Fare: and clisp segfaults on one of the asdf tests (!) 2015-10-02T19:36:34Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:38:55Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:38:57Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:39:05Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:39:12Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:43:20Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-02T19:47:13Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:47:22Z Fare: OK, this commit looks like it causes clisp to fail asdf-pathname-test.script, even though all it's changing is a slot of monolithic-lib-op, which isn't used in that test(!!!!) 1b5bd7837874df7a89f697fa686eba6282e1f8e7 2015-10-02T19:47:46Z Fare considers writing down clisp as "unmaintained" 2015-10-02T19:50:49Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:51:29Z Fare: but at head, I get an even weirder failure. 2015-10-02T19:53:29Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T19:56:11Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-02T19:57:07Z jackdaniel: Fare: did you get my mail about monolith builds? 2015-10-02T19:57:20Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:57:21Z Fare: jackdaniel, that they are now working? 2015-10-02T19:57:32Z Fare: I think I'm not going to change the default for 3.1.6 2015-10-02T19:57:35Z jackdaniel: yeah, and explaining how it works 2015-10-02T19:57:37Z Fare: but hopefully for 3.2 2015-10-02T19:57:44Z Fare: I'm still not sure how it works 2015-10-02T19:57:46Z jackdaniel: OK, it's fine with me 2015-10-02T19:57:50Z Fare: sounds complicated 2015-10-02T19:58:08Z jackdaniel: if you could write me a mail with doubts maybe I'll know *what* to answer 2015-10-02T19:58:19Z Fare: I'd use static init functions recognized by the linker. 2015-10-02T19:58:36Z Fare: I don't know that a "tag" is or how you search for them. 2015-10-02T19:58:50Z jackdaniel: it's not that simple because you can't initialize library before cl_boot which might be invoked at any time 2015-10-02T19:58:58Z Fare: also — how does that compare with what mkcl does? 2015-10-02T19:59:22Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-02T19:59:33Z jackdaniel: Fare: I have guests (just wrote here because I saw you're online) - please write the questions in mail and I'll try to answer them 2015-10-02T19:59:38Z jackdaniel: in detail :) 2015-10-02T19:59:43Z Fare: why not have libraries call cl_boot on demand ? and/or call a register_init_function that does the right thing 2015-10-02T20:00:33Z jackdaniel: OK? 2015-10-02T20:00:35Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T20:00:59Z jackdaniel goes afk 2015-10-02T20:01:14Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-02T20:05:24Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-02T20:06:21Z araujo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-02T20:07:23Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-10-02T20:08:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-02T20:09:19Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T20:09:53Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-02T20:12:04Z warweasle quit (Quit: Time to go.) 2015-10-02T20:13:09Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Some hacking may be required if you use a different setup. 2015-10-02T20:51:21Z Fare: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/73 2015-10-02T20:51:21Z Fare: that's enough proof of concept to me. 2015-10-02T20:52:53Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T20:54:20Z badkins quit 2015-10-02T20:55:36Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T21:01:58Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-02T21:09:27Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:09:28Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:10:16Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:11:06Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:13:36Z MasterPiece quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:16:22Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:17:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:19:02Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:20:54Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T21:21:24Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-10-02T21:23:31Z Guest66285 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:24:15Z RussT2 joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:28:28Z RussT1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:31:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:38:21Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:39:54Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T21:41:12Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:44:23Z eudoxia quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-02T21:47:18Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T21:48:33Z andreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T21:49:35Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:51:58Z Aridere joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:53:01Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-02T21:56:31Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T21:56:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-02T21:57:49Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-02T22:00:04Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T22:02:48Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-02T22:05:44Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-02T22:05:49Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T22:05:52Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-02T22:06:11Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-02T22:06:23Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-02T22:06:40Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-02T22:07:07Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What happens when creating executables with save-lisp-and-die? 2015-10-02T22:41:46Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-02T22:44:34Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, ping 2015-10-02T22:47:08Z Fare: pillton: it uses the *current* sbcl 2015-10-02T22:47:40Z Fare: pillton: if you want to use an *extended* one, you need to jump some extra hoops, which my cffi branch does. 2015-10-02T22:48:34Z pillton: Fare: Right. Thanks for doing the work. 2015-10-02T22:48:44Z pillton: Fare: Is your cffi branch available? 2015-10-02T22:49:58Z pillton: Oh wait. What does *current* mean? 2015-10-02T22:51:31Z DeadTrickster: sbcl will be abel to make shared lib? 2015-10-02T22:51:53Z pyon: How do I "undo" a wrong definition I entered into the SBCL REPL? 2015-10-02T22:52:22Z pillton: pyon: What was the wrong definition? 2015-10-02T22:52:41Z pyon: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((f foo) &key) ...) 2015-10-02T22:52:53Z pyon: Let's say I meant it to be :before instead. 2015-10-02T22:53:11Z pillton: I find slime's mechanism the best for undoing those operations. 2015-10-02T22:53:21Z pyon: Ah, how's it work? 2015-10-02T22:53:51Z pillton: M-x slime-inspect RET (function initialize-instance) RET 2015-10-02T22:54:08Z core1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-02T22:54:09Z pyon: Ah! Thanks! Will try. 2015-10-02T22:55:09Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T22:57:23Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T22:58:20Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-02T23:01:35Z cap_sensitive joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:01:36Z pyon: Is there any way to do the equivalent of `M-x slime RET` and `C-c C-l` in one step? 2015-10-02T23:02:22Z cap_sensitive: Hi, can I specify which argument is mapped? e.g (mapcar (somefunc # 1) '(1 2 3)) 2015-10-02T23:02:47Z cap_sensitive: I think lambda function can be used. But is there another way? 2015-10-02T23:03:04Z cap_sensitive: Without defining a new map-related function 2015-10-02T23:04:15Z blubjr: what 2015-10-02T23:05:26Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-02T23:05:39Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-02T23:06:34Z Fare: pillton: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/73 2015-10-02T23:07:01Z Bicyclidine: cap_sensitive: lambda's usual. syntactic sugar gets annoying 2015-10-02T23:07:18Z cap_sensitive: Bicyclidine: OK. Thank you. 2015-10-02T23:07:21Z cap_sensitive left #lisp 2015-10-02T23:15:15Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-02T23:16:37Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:17:14Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:17:21Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-02T23:17:26Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:18:17Z jxv is now known as zjxv 2015-10-02T23:22:28Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-02T23:23:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:24:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:26:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-02T23:27:42Z blubjr quit (Quit: bye) 2015-10-02T23:28:41Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I need help debugging uiop:run-program on sbcl/windows 2015-10-03T00:18:15Z Fare: resttime, congrats 2015-10-03T00:19:52Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-03T00:21:53Z quasus quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-03T00:22:31Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-03T00:22:52Z sai joined #lisp 2015-10-03T00:22:52Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-03T00:23:05Z Junjie quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-03T00:23:30Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-03T00:24:28Z resttime: Fare: thanks and I think I can help with that depending on what it is, updated sbcl on windows laptop moment ago 2015-10-03T00:25:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T00:26:58Z yanyu quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-03T00:27:32Z xrash_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T00:28:41Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Please don't use it to advertise your project. 2015-10-03T02:49:53Z Xach: snv: Where is the CL implementation of the dialect? That sounds interesting. 2015-10-03T02:49:54Z snv: a bootstrap compiler for my project is written in CL 2015-10-03T02:50:31Z snv: https://github.com/saniv/symta/blob/master/bootstrap/symta.lisp 2015-10-03T02:51:00Z Bike: that is... something 2015-10-03T02:51:38Z Guest84734 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T02:53:13Z snv: Xach, although my CL code is not very "lispy" either, I use macros for infix expressions and semicolon style decls 2015-10-03T02:54:39Z Xach: snv: I see. 2015-10-03T02:58:29Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T03:02:09Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:14:59Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-03T03:15:21Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:16:28Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:16:35Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-03T03:17:09Z phryk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-03T03:19:11Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T03:19:17Z phryk joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:25:40Z jeaye: morning 2015-10-03T03:25:53Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:28:45Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-03T03:30:23Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:35:30Z Guest84734 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T03:43:26Z Dasyatid1 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:45:36Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:55:05Z phax joined #lisp 2015-10-03T03:55:12Z zjxv is now known as jxv 2015-10-03T03:59:24Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-03T04:00:06Z Brucio-63 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:00:26Z Brucio-63 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-03T04:01:57Z Brucio-63 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:02:39Z Brucio-63 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-03T04:03:33Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-03T04:03:33Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:05:10Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-03T04:08:44Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T04:08:56Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:11:34Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:13:59Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:15:56Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-03T04:16:17Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 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I forget what the extent of that function is exactly. 2015-10-03T10:15:50Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:16:51Z core3 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T10:17:28Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T10:18:08Z kenanb: Shinmera: nope. doesn't seem to change anything, assuming (closer-mop:finalize-inheritance (find-class 'foobar)) resulting nil is the expected command and behaviour. 2015-10-03T10:18:56Z Shinmera: Yeah, reading the mop it 'only' influences computing the slots and class precedence list. 2015-10-03T10:19:55Z kenanb: ah, so for class inheritence I should ensure-class with revising :direct-superclasses list I guess? 2015-10-03T10:20:46Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-03T10:21:02Z Shinmera: I don't really understand what you're trying to do, so it's hard to help. 2015-10-03T10:21:06Z kenanb: Shinmera: pardon me, I actually read the mop before asking but my lack of formal programming knowledge sometimes prevents me from understanding the implications of reference. 2015-10-03T10:22:51Z kenanb: I am trying to reach the same CLOS behaviour as (defclass foobar (foo bar) ()), post (defclass foobar (foo) ()) by manipulating the class definition with mop 2015-10-03T10:22:58Z kenanb: of course I can defclass again 2015-10-03T10:23:34Z kenanb: but I want to be able to simply change the class hierarchy without having to redefine the slots and stuff 2015-10-03T10:24:06Z Shinmera: I forget if a class definition gets the super/subclasses as an initarg option, but if that's the case you can use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE to change the superclass list. 2015-10-03T10:24:23Z mission712_ joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:24:48Z kenanb: add-direct-subclass would be doing exactly what I wanted if it also revised the list of superclasses in the subclass definition 2015-10-03T10:24:54Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-03T10:25:01Z Shinmera: I did things similar to what you want in Qtools' widget system, but it's rather involved. It saves all class definition options in the class instance and then appends those in a specific way when the class is redefined 'externally'. 2015-10-03T10:25:27Z kenanb: yeah, but I forgot to mention that I wanted to do this at the meta object level, without needing an actual instance of a class 2015-10-03T10:25:47Z Shinmera: I don't know what that means. 2015-10-03T10:25:53Z Shinmera: If you don't have any class there's nothing to change. 2015-10-03T10:25:56Z kenanb: Shinmera: ah, btw, Qtools is incredibly fun to use, thank you for that library! 2015-10-03T10:26:05Z Shinmera: Glad to hear! 2015-10-03T10:26:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:26:40Z Shinmera: Classes are instances of metaclasses. 2015-10-03T10:26:48Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-03T10:26:56Z Shinmera: So you can use reinitialize-instance on a class too, as it is an instance of a class itself. 2015-10-03T10:27:10Z Shinmera: It's classes all the way down. 2015-10-03T10:28:20Z kenanb: Shinmera: I didn't know qt so even tho commonqt is awesome I was having problems learning it, qtools lowered the learning barrier so now I was not only able to learn qtools but I also learned the commonqt way of doing things when I need to go one level lower 2015-10-03T10:28:47Z kenanb: so seriosly, thank you! I am using it right now 2015-10-03T10:29:09Z Shinmera: Cool! Let me know if you have anything to show. It's always neat to see screenshots of what people have been working on. 2015-10-03T10:30:08Z kenanb: ah, now I see what you mean by reinitialize-instance, I tried that, sadly it didn't work 2015-10-03T10:30:35Z kenanb: apparently the behaviour of add-direct-subclass is exactly what the mop ref says :D 2015-10-03T10:30:43Z kenanb: anyway, there is actually another way 2015-10-03T10:31:56Z kenanb: I can closer-mop:ensure-class with feeding a new list of superclasses to the :direct-subclasses option, and it actually does exactly what redefinition of class would do, so it works 2015-10-03T10:33:45Z kenanb: the only problem was that you needed to feed it with full list of superclasses instead of adding one to it, which makes an add-direct-superclass a really trivial function to write but I didn't want to write duplicate functionality in case it already exists 2015-10-03T10:33:49Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:34:30Z kenanb: I also wanted to ask if that is the expected behaviour of add-direct-subclass to make sure there isn't a bug in sbcl mop layer 2015-10-03T10:34:35Z kenanb: thanks Shinmera 2015-10-03T10:35:15Z Shinmera: I'm by far no expert on MOP, so 2015-10-03T10:35:25Z Shinmera: If beach was here he'd probably know much better. 2015-10-03T10:37:31Z kenanb: may I have a question about how to do something specific in qtools Shinmera? 2015-10-03T10:37:58Z Shinmera: I'm always mystified when people ask to ask. Just ask already. 2015-10-03T10:38:19Z john_hanCoq joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:40:00Z kenanb: allright, I can see how to use the legacy opengl with qtools from the qtools example, but do you know a code example that uses modern opengl with qtools 2015-10-03T10:40:11Z kenanb: so I can use it as a reference 2015-10-03T10:40:11Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-03T10:40:27Z kenanb: one that uses shaders and stuff 2015-10-03T10:40:39Z Shinmera: That's got nothing to do with Qtools. 2015-10-03T10:40:56Z Shinmera: You'll have to look at the OpenGL libs to see how things are done. 2015-10-03T10:42:28Z kenanb: hmm, you are right 2015-10-03T10:42:40Z Shinmera: I haven't done any of that stuff myself, so I don't know about it. 2015-10-03T10:44:52Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T10:45:15Z kenanb: I am amazed by the fact that I've been using common lisp for 10 years now and I am still getting extremely confused when there is an ffi layer in the library stack, luckily I am doing some c/c++ now so I think I'll understand it from the original library examples this time. 2015-10-03T10:45:18Z kenanb: anyway, thanks 2015-10-03T10:54:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I forget which one though. 2015-10-03T18:02:20Z kenanb: :) 2015-10-03T18:02:40Z kenanb: you can stop hitting now, I am dead 2015-10-03T18:02:44Z kenanb: sorry :) 2015-10-03T18:04:23Z Shinmera: I ain't even hittin' 2015-10-03T18:05:41Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T18:06:26Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-03T18:10:09Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-03T18:11:41Z elimik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T18:13:37Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T18:16:39Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T18:19:22Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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You must be joking… 2015-10-03T19:26:13Z pjb: snv: and it's probably much easier to do so in Russia, where I'm told the taxes are much lower than eg. in France. 2015-10-03T19:26:49Z snv: pjb, you need investor and market. There are no market and no investors. 2015-10-03T19:26:58Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:26:58Z pjb: Market is international anyways. 2015-10-03T19:27:07Z pjb: So it doesn't matter where your R&D is located. 2015-10-03T19:27:17Z pjb: Better locate it where there are smart people and low taxes. 2015-10-03T19:28:13Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:28:59Z snv: pjb, there are no smart people - everyone migrated to the west. And no investors. And you have to pay government a lot of money to protect you business from being taken down. 2015-10-03T19:30:07Z snv: There is a thing called "corruption". If you don't pay bribe to policeman, he inserts a wine bottle into your anus. 2015-10-03T19:30:49Z snv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky 2015-10-03T19:33:41Z prxq: snv: there is a thing called "the topic" here. There are other channels where people will welcome hearing from your experiences. 2015-10-03T19:35:20Z snv: prxq, well, we were talking about "lisp jobs" 2015-10-03T19:35:34Z pjb: like #lispcafe 2015-10-03T19:36:55Z Baggers: This is a fairly non-specific question but what are people's experiences with usocket? I have looked at iolib and, while nice, I would like something that worked on windows as well. Is usocket still in a good state? Are there any big gotchas people know of? 2015-10-03T19:37:12Z snv: pjb, thanks 2015-10-03T19:37:35Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-03T19:37:57Z pjb: Baggers: iolib requires an external C library, and uses CFFI. usocket only uses lisp APIs. 2015-10-03T19:43:01Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T19:43:54Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:44:14Z Baggers: pjb: oh that's a big plus 2015-10-03T19:44:42Z Baggers: I hadnt noticed that there have been new releases this year 2015-10-03T19:44:51Z Baggers: good to know it's still active 2015-10-03T19:45:13Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:49:27Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T19:49:36Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:50:04Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-03T19:50:16Z renee joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:52:20Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:54:21Z francogrex: is there a (subset) lisp interpreter written in lisp available does anyone know? (I have seen Peter Norvig implement some sort of a scheme in his book) 2015-10-03T19:56:14Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:56:18Z pjb: There are several lisps implemented in CL. 2015-10-03T19:56:18Z prxq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T19:56:58Z pjb: francogrex: for example, sicl. But also ccl, sbcl are written in lisp. 2015-10-03T19:57:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:57:37Z francogrex: pjb: yes I am searching for the most minimalistic... sicl? 2015-10-03T19:57:50Z pjb: lambda calculus? 2015-10-03T19:57:52Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-03T19:58:04Z francogrex: yes 2015-10-03T19:58:06Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html ? 2015-10-03T19:58:35Z francogrex: yes something like that indeed :) 2015-10-03T19:59:58Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:02:43Z francogrex: (quit) 2015-10-03T20:03:09Z francogrex: wtf.. /quit became (quit) ... sorry 2015-10-03T20:03:20Z francogrex quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1) 2015-10-03T20:04:23Z blubjr: lol 2015-10-03T20:04:32Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:08:03Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-03T20:08:03Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-03T20:08:43Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:09:30Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:09:45Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:11:28Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T20:12:03Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:13:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:15:01Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:16:25Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:17:01Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:19:10Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:19:20Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:21:02Z renopt quit (Quit: actually nvm) 2015-10-03T20:23:45Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T20:24:16Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:26:46Z jtz joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:28:47Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T20:28:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:31:18Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:34:28Z renee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:45:50Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:48:07Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:50:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the stuff behind Planet Lisp open source? 2015-10-03T20:50:33Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:50:45Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:51:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: window b3 2015-10-03T20:51:08Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:51:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:52:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:52:30Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:55:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:56:26Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:56:31Z LiamH1 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:56:59Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-03T20:57:39Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-03T20:59:13Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:00:11Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-03T21:00:21Z LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 2015-10-03T21:01:02Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:01:06Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T21:01:28Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:01:31Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T21:01:58Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:02:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:09:11Z emaczen` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T21:09:27Z mrottenkolber: Uhm.... https://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/extensions.html#toc63 2015-10-03T21:09:50Z mrottenkolber: Is there more detailed documentation on CMUCL threads somewhere? 2015-10-03T21:12:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where is RUN/I from? Fare uses it in his scripting? 2015-10-03T21:13:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fare/fare-scripts/blob/master/languages.lisp#L23 2015-10-03T21:13:40Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:14:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ugh, github code search is annoying for Lisp 2015-10-03T21:17:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, I think it's from here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/inferior-shell 2015-10-03T21:19:18Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:20:44Z emaczen`: how do I see what read macros expand to? I've done this before, but I just can't remember 2015-10-03T21:21:02Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-03T21:21:16Z Bike: read 2015-10-03T21:22:02Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T21:22:30Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:22:30Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-03T21:24:29Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:24:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:25:23Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-03T21:27:28Z pjb: emaczen`: just quote them. 2015-10-03T21:30:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-03T21:31:27Z spacerella: Optimization question. https://gist.github.com/djangojames/02e5560139f9d8f1d10b 2015-10-03T21:31:45Z spacerella: Does anyone know if I can do anything better without having to resort to the suppress warnings? 2015-10-03T21:32:55Z Bike: well, w hat's the warning? 2015-10-03T21:33:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:33:32Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2015-10-03T21:33:33Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:34:33Z spacerella: "unable to recode as leas, shifts and adds due to type uncertainty..." 2015-10-03T21:34:46Z Bike: type uncertainty in what? 2015-10-03T21:35:29Z spacerella: on the mod, the return type is 64 bit unsigned, rather than fixnum 2015-10-03T21:36:34Z Bike: i don't get any warning, hm. 2015-10-03T21:36:48Z spacerella: sbcl? 2015-10-03T21:36:58Z Bike: yeah. with the #+sbcl removed, of course. 2015-10-03T21:37:41Z spacerella: I'm totally happy with the generated code- it's much better than with no type hints, but it would be nice to know if I am doing something wrong 2015-10-03T21:37:59Z Bike: looks fine to me. 2015-10-03T21:38:41Z Bike: i don't think you even need the the on the mod. 2015-10-03T21:38:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: spacerella: whate version are you using? 2015-10-03T21:39:03Z spacerella: 1.2.4.debian 2015-10-03T21:39:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might try upgrading, I had some problems with that version other places 2015-10-03T21:40:17Z Bike: ah, yeah, mine's newer too. 2015-10-03T21:40:29Z spacerella: I'll give it a try; makes sense if Bike's shows no warning 2015-10-03T21:40:30Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-03T21:41:21Z Bike: oh, and i'm on a 64 bit machine ofc. 2015-10-03T21:42:24Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-03T21:42:36Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-03T21:43:06Z digiorgi: hi, in ABCL, when i use jstatic and i have some type error, it just say me "no method".. how can i know why it failed? 2015-10-03T21:45:10Z pjb: It should also say what the arguments were, and you could define a method for those argument classes. 2015-10-03T21:46:24Z digiorgi: but only with non static methods, when i use static methods, it only say error 2015-10-03T21:47:40Z pjb: Sorry, I thought CLOS method. 2015-10-03T21:47:49Z pjb: I don't know much about java. 2015-10-03T21:47:54Z pjb: Perhaps, try the abcl mail list? 2015-10-03T21:48:39Z digiorgi: yes... i should do that 2015-10-03T21:51:31Z ogamita1 joined #lisp 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Hello beach. 2015-10-04T03:23:49Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:24:34Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-04T03:25:23Z Angelo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-04T03:25:58Z beach: nyef: Have you managed to build Clasp yet? 2015-10-04T03:26:46Z nyef: Not quite. 2015-10-04T03:26:55Z nyef: ... And my build just died, too. 2015-10-04T03:27:43Z beach: :( 2015-10-04T03:27:54Z nyef: ... Right, -lncurses and -ltinfo, I think. 2015-10-04T03:28:26Z nyef: drmeister's subscription of build issues still hasn't quite run out, it seems. 2015-10-04T03:28:43Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-10-04T03:29:07Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-04T03:29:51Z nyef: So, I had a couple of questions for you. 2015-10-04T03:30:02Z beach: OK 2015-10-04T03:30:07Z nyef: You're making a POSIX wrapper? 2015-10-04T03:30:25Z beach: I am specifying one. Not writing it at the moment. 2015-10-04T03:30:46Z nyef: Okay, that's fair. Have you gotten as far as termios yet? 2015-10-04T03:30:52Z beach: No. 2015-10-04T03:30:55Z beach: Sorry. 2015-10-04T03:31:12Z nyef: It was worth a shot. 2015-10-04T03:31:21Z beach: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html 2015-10-04T03:31:38Z beach: ↑ is all I have at the moment. 2015-10-04T03:31:49Z nyef: Ah, very basic so far. 2015-10-04T03:32:04Z beach: Yes. It's one of those "do one page per day" projects. 2015-10-04T03:32:11Z beach: So it will take a year or so. 2015-10-04T03:34:10Z nyef: And the other question I had was "what do you have planned for garbage collection with SICL?" 2015-10-04T03:34:24Z nyef: And is that garbage collector to be written in Lisp? 2015-10-04T03:34:39Z beach: The answer to the second question is "yes". 2015-10-04T03:34:58Z beach: I am planning a 2-generation collector, a per-thread nursery and a global collector. 2015-10-04T03:35:20Z beach: The nursery is using a mark-and-compact sliding collector. 2015-10-04T03:35:26Z beach: I have a paper on it. Hold on... 2015-10-04T03:36:09Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf 2015-10-04T03:37:02Z nyef: How do you keep the GC from screwing itself up during operation? And are there going to be noticeable pauses with the GC in operation? 2015-10-04T03:37:08Z beach: For the global one, I am thinking of using the one from reference number 8 in that paper: Kermany and Petrank: "The compressor: Concurrent, incremental, and parallel compaction." 2015-10-04T03:37:32Z beach: nyef: The paper has an estimation of the pause time for the nursery. 2015-10-04T03:37:42Z beach: It is in the order of a millisecond or so. 2015-10-04T03:37:52Z nyef: Hrm... Okay. 2015-10-04T03:37:54Z beach: The global collector is planned to be concurrent. 2015-10-04T03:38:18Z beach: Is a millisecond too much for you? 2015-10-04T03:38:20Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:38:41Z nyef: I hope it's not too much. 2015-10-04T03:39:02Z beach: By making the nursery smaller, the collection time is decreased. 2015-10-04T03:39:15Z beach: With more frequent collections as a result of course. 2015-10-04T03:39:51Z beach: Do you need a new garbage collector for something? 2015-10-04T03:41:50Z nyef: Not exactly. Trying to get clasp to build, and my recent troubles with termios, have me thinking about writing my own lisp implementation and posix (or just syscall) bindings, which leads to the perpetual LispOS question. 2015-10-04T03:42:18Z beach: I see. 2015-10-04T03:42:43Z beach: By all means, if there is common ground, or if you need help, I am in. 2015-10-04T03:43:18Z beach: And if not, that's fine too. :) 2015-10-04T03:43:25Z phadthai: adapting an implementation is also certain to be much less work than writing a new one, a few people here know it first-hand :) 2015-10-04T03:43:57Z beach: Yeah, like Clasp is an adaptation of ECL. A lot less work. :) 2015-10-04T03:44:01Z nyef: phadthai: As an SBCL hacker for much of the past decade, I'm well aware. (-: 2015-10-04T03:44:57Z nyef: beach: I guess my next question is, how's Cleavir coming along? 2015-10-04T03:45:10Z beach: phadthai: "less work" is not necessarily the main goal, though. 2015-10-04T03:45:30Z beach: nyef: Quite well, thank you. I am working on phase 3 of bootstrapping at the moment. 2015-10-04T03:45:30Z phadthai: beach: I have no objections :) 2015-10-04T03:46:07Z beach: nyef: There is very little code left to write. 2015-10-04T03:46:15Z nyef: So, where is that in relation to having a usable system? 2015-10-04T03:46:22Z beach: nyef: What remains is how to organize it. 2015-10-04T03:46:51Z nyef: How so? 2015-10-04T03:47:19Z beach: nyef: It is a bit hard to explain. Phase 3 builds objects inside the host that have the same shape as the native objects... 2015-10-04T03:47:19Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T03:47:30Z phax joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:47:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:47:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T03:47:39Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T03:48:03Z beach: Phase 4 will tie a knot in the class hierarchy, so that the classes of instances are instances of the same kind. 2015-10-04T03:48:15Z beach: From then on, I will load up the environment with whatever I need. 2015-10-04T03:48:20Z beach: ... from existing code. 2015-10-04T03:48:54Z beach: Finally, I will create an isomorphic graph in a simulated memory and write the result to an executable file. 2015-10-04T03:49:59Z nyef: Sounds like you're fairly close, then? 2015-10-04T03:50:22Z nyef: Although with the possibility of some fairly nasty gotchas in some of those steps. 2015-10-04T03:50:31Z beach: It feels close, but there are a lot of details to take care of. And debugging the bootstrapping process is not easy. 2015-10-04T03:50:37Z beach: Yes, that. 2015-10-04T03:50:55Z beach: The advantage is that I am working entirely in Common Lisp. 2015-10-04T03:51:19Z beach: So I don't have the kind of bugs that drmeister has with Clasp. 2015-10-04T03:51:29Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:51:54Z nyef: The disadvantage, on the other hand, is having very little in the way of interoperability with other languages, I presume? 2015-10-04T03:52:02Z beach: Sure. 2015-10-04T03:52:08Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T03:52:17Z beach: That is not a priority for me. 2015-10-04T03:52:26Z beach: LispOS and all that. :) 2015-10-04T03:52:43Z nyef: Right. And on Linux, I'm fairly happy most of the time with a syscall interface. 2015-10-04T03:52:54Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T03:52:57Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:53:13Z gernika quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-04T03:53:14Z beach: Yes, that was my thinking with the web site I am working on. 2015-10-04T03:54:31Z beach: The SICL development is strange, because I am executing a lot of the code on a daily basis, inside the host environment. I have a REPL and I can define functions and classes and such. 2015-10-04T03:55:08Z beach: Yet, it is not THAT close to being usable as a standalone system. 2015-10-04T03:56:23Z beach: I am thinking of the traditional situation in industry where the manager is shown a prototype and is so impressed that the developer is told "ship it". 2015-10-04T03:56:42Z nyef: Heh. Right. 2015-10-04T03:57:56Z beach: Anyway, I think if one day you decide to have a look at SICL, you will be impressed by a few things, in particular the bootstrapping process. 2015-10-04T03:58:15Z beach: I think I am on the right track. I guess that's what I am trying to say. 2015-10-04T03:58:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T03:58:31Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T03:58:33Z nyef: I hope that you are. 2015-10-04T03:58:44Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T03:59:06Z beach: For my sake? It is not that important to me. I get enough papers out of it to justify my salary. But it would be nice, yes. 2015-10-04T03:59:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T03:59:19Z nyef: Umm... Random thought. Does your bootstrapping setup allow for cross-architecture builds, such as building PPC from x86-64 or anything like that? 2015-10-04T03:59:31Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-04T03:59:33Z beach: I don't see why not. 2015-10-04T03:59:58Z beach: I am just using a standard Common Lisp implementation plus CLOSER-MOP. 2015-10-04T04:00:56Z nyef: Okay, if you don't forsee problems at this point, I'll not worry about it until the time comes, if ever it does. 2015-10-04T04:00:57Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:01:19Z beach: Yeah, no need to worry. :) 2015-10-04T04:01:35Z beach: One of my favorite results is this one: http://metamodular.com/satiation.pdf 2015-10-04T04:01:42Z Jirachier quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T04:01:52Z beach: I just got it working in phase 3 of bootstrapping. 2015-10-04T04:02:13Z beach: I need it to have operational generic functions for the next phase. 2015-10-04T04:02:18Z nyef: Cool. More reading for me to do tomorrow! 2015-10-04T04:02:37Z beach: ... or you can ask me for an executive summary when you are up to it. 2015-10-04T04:03:48Z nyef: It's just gone midnight here. I'm not up to much right now. (-: 2015-10-04T04:04:02Z beach: Hence "when you are up to it". 2015-10-04T04:04:09Z nyef: Right. 2015-10-04T04:05:24Z beach: I don't want to push SICL too hard at this point. I certainly don't want to announce it early, for fear of finding myself in the situation drmeister is in now, with a lot of pressure to get a new release out soon. 2015-10-04T04:06:02Z nyef: I can certainly understand that. 2015-10-04T04:06:50Z nyef: I must be tired. I'm starting to try and think about ways to resurrect my old SBCL-OS hack. 2015-10-04T04:06:55Z White_Flame: beach: reading your GC paper, which strategy are you going to use to track oldgen pointers back into the nursery? 2015-10-04T04:07:18Z beach: I don't. I promote whenever such a pointer might otherwise be created. 2015-10-04T04:07:25Z White_Flame: ah, cool 2015-10-04T04:07:39Z beach: It simplifies a lot of stuff. 2015-10-04T04:07:45Z White_Flame: yes, and spreads out the overhead 2015-10-04T04:07:51Z beach: Yep. 2015-10-04T04:08:29Z White_Flame: but it's also fairly easy to have cases where lots of new pressure is applied to the oldgen space 2015-10-04T04:09:01Z White_Flame: but that's also not expected to be the common case 2015-10-04T04:09:10Z beach: I am hoping it won't matter much. The paper by Kermany et al is pretty convincing that they can handle it. 2015-10-04T04:09:20Z beach: Yeah, that too. 2015-10-04T04:09:22Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:09:37Z beach: Certainly, temporary lists and such will be in the nursery. 2015-10-04T04:10:29Z White_Flame: the one that pops to my mind would be game loop style programming, (setf *frame-scene-root* ...stuff-from-this-frame...) 2015-10-04T04:10:45Z beach: There are scenarios like that, sure. 2015-10-04T04:11:12Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:11:26Z drmeister: Hey guys 2015-10-04T04:11:31Z drmeister: folks 2015-10-04T04:11:33Z drmeister: everyone 2015-10-04T04:11:52Z blubjr: drmeister.. 2015-10-04T04:11:52Z beach: White_Flame: Oh, and one more important thing: Since headers in SICL are all 2 words, and also CONS cells, the global collector will have one part (mark-and-sweep) for the headers and one part for the "rack" (roughly slot vector). Therefore, objects won't move in the global generation. 2015-10-04T04:11:58Z beach: Hello drmeister. 2015-10-04T04:12:10Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T04:12:41Z White_Flame: beach: oh right. I did read a lot of the sicl docs a day or two ago 2015-10-04T04:13:14Z beach: That way, the nursery objects won't have to be updated as a result of objects moving in the global space. 2015-10-04T04:13:55Z beach: All of this is just thought stuff, though. The only thing that has been tested is the rough estimate for a nursery collection. 2015-10-04T04:17:36Z nyef: beach: Thank you for sharing and explaining. I'm going to crash now. 2015-10-04T04:17:38Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20151001044230]) 2015-10-04T04:17:46Z beach: Sleep well. 2015-10-04T04:18:09Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:19:17Z beach: drmeister: How are you holding up? 2015-10-04T04:19:51Z drmeister: It's been a lot of work. 2015-10-04T04:20:43Z beach: Yeah. 2015-10-04T04:20:48Z big_num joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:21:29Z big_num left #lisp 2015-10-04T04:29:02Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20151001044230]) 2015-10-04T04:29:26Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:29:43Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T04:30:07Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:32:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T04:35:30Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20151001044230]) 2015-10-04T04:35:55Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T04:35:59Z arrubin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2015-10-04T08:07:41Z ralt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:08:00Z ralt left #lisp 2015-10-04T08:08:06Z ralt1 is now known as ralt 2015-10-04T08:17:48Z beach: I wrote another page for this site (the one for SBRK): file:///mnt/sda1/strandh/Network-Solutions/Website/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html 2015-10-04T08:18:01Z beach: Now, there are only around 300 left to write. 2015-10-04T08:18:21Z loke`````: Good afternoon Lisp 2015-10-04T08:18:31Z beach: ETA September 2016 then. 2015-10-04T08:18:39Z beach: Hello loke`````. 2015-10-04T08:18:45Z loke`````: Hello bech 2015-10-04T08:18:47Z loke`````: beahc 2015-10-04T08:18:48Z loke`````: beach 2015-10-04T08:19:40Z beach: In addition to more pages, I also need to put in navigation links, notes, etc. 2015-10-04T08:20:18Z beach: ... and I need to learn from Shinmera to make the HTML markup more idiomatic so that it is easier to parse. 2015-10-04T08:21:22Z loke`````: beach: What are you writing? 2015-10-04T08:22:02Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T08:23:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-04T08:24:34Z beach: I wrote another page for this site (the one for SBRK): file:///mnt/sda1/strandh/Network-Solutions/Website/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html 2015-10-04T08:24:46Z t4nk238 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:25:03Z t4nk238 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T08:25:10Z beach: Oops, that's my local link. 2015-10-04T08:25:12Z beach: Hold on... 2015-10-04T08:25:27Z beach: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html 2015-10-04T08:26:20Z loke`````: beach: Are you writing this in raw html? 2015-10-04T08:26:23Z beach: Yes. 2015-10-04T08:26:50Z loke`````: I'd recommend writing it using some slightly more structured markup. That way you can easily generate other types of output. 2015-10-04T08:26:54Z beach: I am still secretly hoping I will get help with things like HTML markup, navigation links, CSS, etc. But I don't have great hopes for that. 2015-10-04T08:27:45Z Shinmera: loke`````: The problem is that those usually aren't any good at generating properly structured HTML, making it a pain to interface with from CSS&JS. 2015-10-04T08:28:08Z Shinmera: (see the hyperspec for an example of this kinda garbage) 2015-10-04T08:28:09Z loke`````: Shinmera: you'd obviously write your own code to render html from the source. 2015-10-04T08:28:11Z S140No3 left #lisp 2015-10-04T08:28:29Z Shinmera: loke`````: I don't know if beach has the time for that :) 2015-10-04T08:28:40Z loke`````: I did that for the chat application, and this is the result. In fact you could use it too with just a little bit of extending: 2015-10-04T08:28:48Z loke`````: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-markup 2015-10-04T08:29:02Z loke`````: It generates a sexp from the markup. 2015-10-04T08:29:10Z loke`````: The rendering of html from the sexp is independent. 2015-10-04T08:29:37Z ralt: beach, if I were you, I'd try to find a doc-generator of some sort and let it generate the HTML. 2015-10-04T08:30:13Z beach: The main problem for me here is that I don't particularly want to write this stuff in the first place. I just feel it is needed. So I do it with minimal investment on my part, using cut-and-paste and Emacs macros etc. 2015-10-04T08:30:50Z ralt: I've used weitz's documentation-template for that, with some amendments https://github.com/ralt/documentation-template/commit/e514279cc8c167e16c31562747aab6868aba4384 2015-10-04T08:30:57Z loke`````: beach: So if someone created a template for you to follow which can generate HTML in the desired form, you'd rather use that? 2015-10-04T08:31:07Z beach: Absolutely. 2015-10-04T08:31:59Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:32:03Z beach: I'll take pull requests and other help. It is all GITified: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Closix 2015-10-04T08:32:15Z loke`````: beach: All right. I would be willing to help you there, by extending cl-markup to something that you can use. Or, perhaps ralt could help out with documentation-template? 2015-10-04T08:32:22Z loke`````: beach: Do you have a list of requirements? 2015-10-04T08:32:27Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:32:34Z beach: Not written down. 2015-10-04T08:32:47Z beach: The idea is to have a low-level interface and a high-level interface. 2015-10-04T08:32:55Z loke`````: beach: Can you summarise it, and perhaps drop me an email about it? 2015-10-04T08:32:57Z beach: The low-level interface returns error codes and does not allocate memory. 2015-10-04T08:33:05Z beach: It has only fixed number of arguments. 2015-10-04T08:33:34Z ralt: beach, I'm a little confused about the project. Isn't the POSIX interface basically a C interface? 2015-10-04T08:33:37Z beach: The high-level interface uses signals, optional and/or keyword arguments, etc. 2015-10-04T08:33:57Z beach: ralt: As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with C. 2015-10-04T08:34:25Z beach: I am using this table: http://blog.rchapman.org/post/36801038863/linux-system-call-table-for-x86-64 2015-10-04T08:34:33Z beach: And I am taking documentation from "man 2". 2015-10-04T08:34:58Z beach: But since man 2 is written for libc, I need to invent what I would do for Common Lisp in place of the C stuff. 2015-10-04T08:36:10Z beach: ralt: Well, I guess you are right. 2015-10-04T08:36:37Z beach: ralt: But I am not thinking POSIX as much as the assembly interface indicated in that link. 2015-10-04T08:36:56Z |3b| quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T08:37:21Z beach: There are still some aspects that are influenced by C, for instance structs that need to be passed in registers. 2015-10-04T08:37:40Z ralt: beach, so, it's rather a compliance with linux's syscalls? 2015-10-04T08:37:50Z ralt: with a lispy interface? 2015-10-04T08:38:02Z beach: If you want. Or at least the POSIX subset of those calls. 2015-10-04T08:38:11Z beach: I am not sure I know which ones are which. 2015-10-04T08:38:21Z ralt: heh 2015-10-04T08:38:29Z beach: But yes, it's a Common Lisp interface to a POSIX-like kernel. 2015-10-04T08:39:04Z beach: Does that make sense? 2015-10-04T08:39:14Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:39:16Z ralt: I'm not sure how that differs from using syscalls/cffi though 2015-10-04T08:39:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T08:39:38Z beach: This is a specification. Some implementations might choose to use CFFI for it. 2015-10-04T08:40:00Z beach: But I want something that does not mention any C-isms in the documentation. 2015-10-04T08:40:18Z beach: If that can be done using CFFI, then that's fine. 2015-10-04T08:40:34Z beach: For SICL, I wasn't planning to use libc, so I will do it differently. 2015-10-04T08:40:40Z ralt: hm, I think I see 2015-10-04T08:40:58Z ralt: it's a POSIX alternative, based on POSIX, basically 2015-10-04T08:41:13Z beach: That sounds right. Well put. Thanks! 2015-10-04T08:41:53Z ralt: I can't seem to find the POSIX specification online. 2015-10-04T08:42:18Z beach: It might cost money, as most standards documents do. 2015-10-04T08:42:33Z ralt: yeah, it looks like so. 2015-10-04T08:42:42Z ralt: it's a shame, really 2015-10-04T08:42:54Z beach: That's how they make money. 2015-10-04T08:43:20Z ralt: yeah, I guess so. 2015-10-04T08:43:33Z mattprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:44:09Z beach: We are just spoiled that ANSI let us use the draft (which is virtually identical to the final document) freely. 2015-10-04T08:44:52Z beach: Actually, now that I said that, I did find the draft standard for C online as well. 2015-10-04T08:45:10Z beach: I haven't tried to find POSIX though. 2015-10-04T08:45:47Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:48:48Z beach: ralt: Thanks for making me state my objectives more clearly. I will probably change this page: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html as a result. 2015-10-04T08:50:34Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-04T08:51:43Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T08:51:55Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-04T08:52:22Z ralt: beach, that's the page I read that made me confused :-) 2015-10-04T08:52:40Z beach: OK. Definitely needs an update then. :) 2015-10-04T08:53:39Z beach: I need to read up on what POSIX really defines. 2015-10-04T08:54:31Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:03:52Z loke`````: beach: The posix spec is available online 2015-10-04T09:03:55Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:04:18Z beach: loke`````: OK, I believe you. 2015-10-04T09:04:29Z p_l: beach: The Open Group looks quite happy to share the specification 2015-10-04T09:04:58Z p_l: that said, accessing syscalls without libc() is not in scope 2015-10-04T09:05:34Z p_l: http://www.unix.org/online.html <--- access to latest version of the spec 2015-10-04T09:05:39Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-04T09:06:37Z loke`````: Right. The POSIX API is defined in terms of its C library. 2015-10-04T09:06:41Z p_l: there are also tables of interfaces, specifying which version they apply to, in which they are marked obsolete, which are optionals, etc 2015-10-04T09:07:24Z p_l: loke`````: well, not fully, but partially - you're supposed to use interface library from the OS, because otherwise you bind directly to specific implementation 2015-10-04T09:07:56Z p_l: for example, Spring implemented most or all of POSIX calls in barely few IPC syscalls 2015-10-04T09:08:24Z p_l: relinking/recompiling against the provided library handled that automatically 2015-10-04T09:08:50Z loke`````: p_l: right but the posix definition is on the C API level. What's below is irrelevant. But that is kinda what you said, wasn't it? 2015-10-04T09:08:54Z p_l: also, take into account that linux has afaik at least 3 methods to call a syscall, normally handled "automagically" for you through libc 2015-10-04T09:09:25Z p_l: loke`````: well, inasmuch C calling sequence is very simple and documented in the OS as well 2015-10-04T09:09:28Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T09:09:50Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:09:52Z p_l: It's not much beyond the old assembly tables, but it *does* insist on going through the system library 2015-10-04T09:10:10Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:10:15Z beach: I will try to make that clear when I update the main page. 2015-10-04T09:10:21Z loke`````: p_l: of course, but to my knowledge POSIX does not address implemnetation details such as calling sequences which is part of the ABI (i.e. not part of POSIX) 2015-10-04T09:12:06Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T09:12:13Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:13:19Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:15:11Z pinterface1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:18:51Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-04T09:19:09Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:19:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:26:35Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-04T09:27:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:27:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:29:55Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:34:21Z beach: Somewhat better I hope: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html 2015-10-04T09:35:59Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:36:09Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:38:37Z beach: If I ever get close to finishing this specification, it could serve a purpose similar to that of CLOSER-MOP in that it would unify the interface of different implementations to a single one for all implementations. 2015-10-04T09:42:25Z PuercoPop: Is rotatef a destructive operation (I would assume so, but it appears to not be the case) 2015-10-04T09:42:47Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-10-04T09:43:50Z loke`````: PuercoPop: it is 2015-10-04T09:43:58Z loke`````: it operates on places 2015-10-04T09:44:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:46:19Z isBEKaml_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:48:16Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-04T09:48:27Z sulky quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T09:49:57Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:50:48Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T09:51:45Z PuercoPop: loke`````: So wouldn't http://stackoverflow.com/a/32927451/357198 count as modifying a literal object? It 'works' on on sbcl/clisp 2015-10-04T09:52:52Z loke`````: PuercoPop: I think you're using weird terminology here 2015-10-04T09:53:10Z loke`````: Exactly what did you try that didn't work? 2015-10-04T09:53:22Z loke`````: (I have to leave in roughly 3 minutes, so be swift) 2015-10-04T09:54:37Z PuercoPop: loke`````: So afaik attempting to modify literal objects has undefined consequences according the clhs (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ga.htm) 2015-10-04T09:55:22Z PuercoPop: so for example one can't call operations that modify a cons cell of a quoted list. 2015-10-04T09:55:52Z loke`````: PuercoPop: yes, that is correct 2015-10-04T09:57:05Z PuercoPop: However the snippet provided by Rainer Joswig does that, and 'works' (I understand that undefined includes going forward with the modifications) 2015-10-04T10:02:33Z p_l: PuercoPop: SBCL will happily modify literals leading to very undefined behaviour 2015-10-04T10:04:49Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:06:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:18:42Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:19:49Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T10:20:51Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:21:47Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T10:23:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T10:23:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:27:51Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T10:33:56Z Tyrius joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:34:07Z Tyrius: hello 2015-10-04T10:34:12Z Tyrius: i'm learning lisp 2015-10-04T10:34:29Z Tyrius: and there is one concept i cant grasp at all 2015-10-04T10:34:47Z isBEKaml_ is now known as isBEKaml 2015-10-04T10:35:07Z Tyrius: when i'm building a return list (via cons when recursing, or via collect when iterating) how do i access this list ? 2015-10-04T10:36:10Z Tyrius: ie. when i want to eliminate duplicate in a list, when iterating, how can i test if the element has already been collecte ? 2015-10-04T10:37:28Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-04T10:37:59Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T10:38:04Z Shinmera: you can use `collecting into foo` and then use `(find thing foo)`. 2015-10-04T10:38:11Z mood: Tyrius: if you're consing to a list, that list is right there 2015-10-04T10:39:01Z DeadTrickster: how bitvectors represented in sbcl? what is the memory layout? 2015-10-04T10:40:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:41:26Z Tyrius quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-04T10:43:08Z Tyrius joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:43:09Z eazar001_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-04T10:43:41Z p_l: DeadTrickster: header + bits packed into 8bit chunks (or was it word-size chunks?) 2015-10-04T10:43:57Z Tyrius: mood: what do you mean ? how can i apply predicates on the constructing list ? 2015-10-04T10:44:24Z DeadTrickster: p_l, so this is essentially just an abstraction on top of words array? 2015-10-04T10:44:44Z Tyrius: for example im doing : (cons (car l) (elimr (cdr l))), how can i access this list ? 2015-10-04T10:45:23Z Shinmera: Use the value of CONS? 2015-10-04T10:46:14Z Tyrius: but how ? using setq ? 2015-10-04T10:46:44Z Shinmera: (let ((my-listy-thing (cons ..))) (do-shit my-listy-thing)) ? 2015-10-04T10:46:45Z DeadTrickster: also how to get object size in bytes? 2015-10-04T10:47:02Z Tyrius: ah yes let 2015-10-04T10:47:40Z Tyrius: sorry if my questions seems dumb i just started learning 2015-10-04T10:47:51Z Shinmera: How are you learning? 2015-10-04T10:48:24Z Tyrius: just classes and practice 2015-10-04T10:48:34Z Tyrius: mostly practice tho, i can't really concentrate in class 2015-10-04T10:48:38Z antoszka: Actually I just said the same thing on #lispnoobs, let's take the discussion one place. 2015-10-04T10:48:40Z Tyrius: and reading the doc 2015-10-04T10:48:45Z Shinmera: Tyrius: you're in a Common Lisp class? 2015-10-04T10:48:46Z antoszka: well, #clnoobs 2015-10-04T10:49:17Z Tyrius: Shinmera: no its an artificial intelligence class, but we're required to code in lisp, so we're learning that first 2015-10-04T10:49:40Z Shinmera: Tyrius: You're probably learning Scheme though, which is not the topic of this channel. 2015-10-04T10:49:57Z brandonz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T10:50:10Z DeadTrickster: remember scheme isn't lisp 2015-10-04T10:50:30Z brandonz joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:50:33Z DeadTrickster: it is just a scheme of it 2015-10-04T10:51:05Z Tyrius: no im pretty sure im learning common lisp right now 2015-10-04T10:51:16Z Shinmera: Ah, well then I'm positively surprised! 2015-10-04T10:51:28Z Shinmera: minion: tell Tyrius about pcl 2015-10-04T10:51:29Z minion: Tyrius: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-10-04T10:51:49Z Shinmera: ^This is usually the recommended book to use for getting into CL if you're already familiar with programming otherwise. 2015-10-04T10:52:29Z Tyrius: ok ill read it then :) 2015-10-04T10:52:48Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:53:03Z Tyrius: thanks for the help guys ! 2015-10-04T10:53:26Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-10-04T10:55:00Z brandonz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T10:58:36Z pjb: nyef: You're asking the right question about "interoperatibility with other language", but meaning the wrong question "interoperatibility with other (very bad) compilers". Lack of FFI to very bad ABI doesn't mean lack of interoperatibility with other languages. cf. eg. cl-python, etc. 2015-10-04T10:59:19Z p_l: DeadTrickster: a bitvector is essentially a specialized vector 2015-10-04T11:01:09Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T11:02:12Z brandonz joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:02:23Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:02:55Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-10-04T11:02:55Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:06:05Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:06:55Z p_l ponders insane ideas like SBCL using KVM API 2015-10-04T11:06:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:07:27Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T11:12:47Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T11:14:05Z dim: Common Lisp on Bare Metal (see http://erlangonxen.org for the reference) sounds quite a very good idea to my ears ;-) 2015-10-04T11:14:15Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T11:14:34Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:17:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: there is also this: https://mirage.io which is the same idea, except for OCaml rather than Erlang 2015-10-04T11:17:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T11:18:02Z p_l: ErlangOnXen had some wacky ideas and even worse behaviour, so I'd probably not take *that* project as guide (not really related to Erlang/OTP issues, that is) 2015-10-04T11:18:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hopefully some project like SICL (http://github.com/robert-strandh/sicl) or something will make it easier to implement CL on bare metal 2015-10-04T11:18:50Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-04T11:18:54Z dim: well Lisp Operating Systems have existed in the past and still exist today, so maybe we don't need inspiration from more recent endeavours in other ecosystems 2015-10-04T11:19:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is getting people to actually work on them :) 2015-10-04T11:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the thing to do is just make an OS that has enough to run Hunchentoot and various web libbraries 2015-10-04T11:20:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or "just" 2015-10-04T11:21:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way, wide adoption won't matter as much. 2015-10-04T11:21:07Z dim: well I would like to be able to run pgloader in such a "VM" 2015-10-04T11:21:28Z dim: so maybe more than hunchentoot 2015-10-04T11:22:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why pgloader? 2015-10-04T11:23:04Z dim: because that's my pet project... 2015-10-04T11:23:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I couldn't tell from the website that it was a Lisp application :) 2015-10-04T11:23:37Z p_l: SBCL with KVM API would not be "Lisp OS" 2015-10-04T11:23:48Z dim: also because of the difficulty for some people to run it, the dependency on linux .so loading make it really hard in cases, CentOS and RHEL being one 2015-10-04T11:23:50Z p_l: it would running Lisp code in specialized VM with SBCL being the "hardware" 2015-10-04T11:24:07Z dim: yeah it would allow to develop a lisp os on top of it 2015-10-04T11:24:25Z dim: I wouldn't ask sbcl maintainers to write that os, they are quite busy already 2015-10-04T11:24:58Z p_l: dim: no, for a lisp OS, you might need either a more "Life Support" (from Genera) program rather than SBCL runtime, or a full-blown environment 2015-10-04T11:25:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: p_l: that basically sounds like what the MirageOS people are trying to do. 2015-10-04T11:25:22Z dim: anyway pgloader isn't a real use case here, it's just me trying to understand the idea 2015-10-04T11:25:25Z pjb: Tyrius: I'm not sure you can modify a list that you are collecting in loop. I would rather use with and push onto that list myself, then you could modify it if you need. 2015-10-04T11:25:59Z pjb: Tyrius: (loop with result = '() do (push (something) result) (when (something) (setf result (delete (something) result))) finally (return result)) 2015-10-04T11:26:11Z pjb: or (return (nreverse result)) 2015-10-04T11:26:50Z p_l: dim: a more realistic example would be CL equivalent of Java's Azul 2015-10-04T11:27:00Z p_l: s/Azul/Zing/ 2015-10-04T11:28:05Z p_l: i.e. pauseless-gc 2015-10-04T11:28:48Z p_l: interestingly, before Zing, Azul manufactured "Vega" cpus which were specialized Java-oriented processors 2015-10-04T11:30:10Z p_l: they were quintessentially like Lisp machines, except servers instead of workstations 2015-10-04T11:30:19Z p_l: (and thus different organization etc.) 2015-10-04T11:40:57Z huza joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:43:17Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:45:32Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Running Common Lisp on "bare metal" is the easy part. It has been done several times (Movitz, Mezzano, etc). 2015-10-04T11:46:00Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The hard part is figuring out what services the OS is supposed to provide and how. 2015-10-04T11:46:37Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T11:47:57Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T11:53:20Z p_l: OTP is a very good example, IMO, but it's definitely not Genera lispers pine for 2015-10-04T11:53:38Z p_l: unfortunately, I don't think you can combine some of the stuff Genera allowed with modern world 2015-10-04T12:00:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T12:01:45Z Tyrius quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Not sure what I can do but I've got my windows laptop that can dev 2015-10-04T14:31:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-04T14:38:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T14:40:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:40:47Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:42:08Z loke````` is now known as loke` 2015-10-04T14:42:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:45:33Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-04T14:47:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T14:52:47Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:54:17Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-04T14:56:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:56:10Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-04T14:59:03Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-04T15:03:41Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:03:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T15:08:04Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:18:32Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:19:40Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:21:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: I think you'd probably want to keep hunchentoot out of the kernel :) 2015-10-04T15:21:15Z findiggle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:21:33Z yvm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:22:13Z goglosh: hey guys 2015-10-04T15:22:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd go for the standard + tcp and threading and then drivers for the various buses / essential peripherals (usb, PCIexpress, sata, networking) 2015-10-04T15:22:36Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T15:22:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: keyboard and mouse (although, maybe just serial console initially?) 2015-10-04T15:23:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, eventually video: but that's less important for a server. 2015-10-04T15:23:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: hi goglosh 2015-10-04T15:24:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I realize that there are serious architectural questions to consider, I also think that it's frequently better to start with something that works and then iterate to a better system 2015-10-04T15:25:29Z findiggle joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:26:30Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-04T15:26:44Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: What would you start with? 2015-10-04T15:27:36Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-04T15:28:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: Probably serial console, and the minimal amount of code necessary to define everything in the standard in lisp 2015-10-04T15:29:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: storage would be early to 2015-10-04T15:29:53Z beach: You mean a minimal Lisp system that can be used to define the remaining standard? 2015-10-04T15:30:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yes 2015-10-04T15:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another way of putting it, is whatever SICL will eventually presuppose. 2015-10-04T15:30:35Z kirkwood joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:31:15Z beach: SICL is going to be bootstrapped on a full Common Lisp system that also includes CLOSER-MOP. It is not going to start with a minimal Lisp. 2015-10-04T15:31:40Z beach: I just can't stand the thought of writing code in a crippled Lisp system. 2015-10-04T15:32:02Z beach: So I use full Common Lisp, including CLOS. 2015-10-04T15:32:02Z kirkwood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:32:30Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:32:38Z ralt: beach, some functions like ensure-directories-exist or probe-file will need a filesystem though :) 2015-10-04T15:33:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: Isn't part of the goal, though, to have a set of modules that can be used by any system that implements enough of the standard? 2015-10-04T15:33:09Z beach: ralt: Indeed. 2015-10-04T15:33:53Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Sure. But there is no bootstrapping order between them. 2015-10-04T15:34:51Z beach: So I haven't defined a minimal subset of Common Lisp to which you can add SICL modules in some predefined order. 2015-10-04T15:35:03Z beach: The compiler, for instance, uses the full language. 2015-10-04T15:35:10Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-04T15:35:18Z beach: And to compile the compiler, you need a compiler. 2015-10-04T15:35:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Couldn't you interpret the compiler to compile it? 2015-10-04T15:35:44Z goglosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:35:54Z beach: Sure. drmeister does something like that. 2015-10-04T15:36:14Z beach: He has an interpreter and an early compiler that he uses to compile a Cleavir-based compiler. 2015-10-04T15:36:22Z beach: Cleavir being the compiler framework of SICL. 2015-10-04T15:36:44Z pjb: ralt: ensure-directories-exist and proble-file don't need what you think as a file-system. They can be implemented using a "virtual file system", such as, eg. a hash-table. 2015-10-04T15:36:59Z sakalli joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:37:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:38:15Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: But I don't have the energy that some people have, so I would not attempt to write something in a language other than Common Lisp, or even in a subset of Common Lisp. For that reason, I assume a full Common Lisp system for bootstrapping. 2015-10-04T15:38:58Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: But I don't see why you would *want* to start with an interpreter. 2015-10-04T15:39:15Z beach: There are many excellent Common Lisp systems out there that can be used for bootstrapping. 2015-10-04T15:39:20Z beach: I personally use SBCL. 2015-10-04T15:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a good point 2015-10-04T15:41:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:41:09Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T15:41:13Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T15:41:37Z ralt: pjb, I guess so, although with a vfs you're already half-way through a real one 2015-10-04T15:42:42Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: There appears to be a lot of strange thinking out there when it comes to bootstrapping Common Lisp systems. Somehow, many Common Lisp programmers seem to prefer to suffer by using a lesser language in order to write their Common Lisp system. Maybe one day I will understand the psychology behind this thinking. 2015-10-04T15:43:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: part of the problem, as far as I can tell, is figuring out how to tell SBCL to lay out the executable for booting 2015-10-04T15:43:59Z beach: Sure, you might need to use some library for writing ELF files. 2015-10-04T15:44:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I'm half inclined to right the initial environment in a language like Haskell 2015-10-04T15:44:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or Shen, if that's still around 2015-10-04T15:44:26Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:45:19Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: If you think those languages are better suited to the task, why would you want to write a Lisp system, rather than a system that looks more like those? 2015-10-04T15:45:28Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-04T15:46:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I like Lisp's syntax and flexibility :) 2015-10-04T15:46:18Z beach: I am not criticizing; just trying to understand. 2015-10-04T15:46:20Z nyef: Part of the reason why many CL systems include a C component is to make it possible to leverage existing infrastructure for system calls, laying out an actual executable file that the host OS can load, stuff like that. 2015-10-04T15:46:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: that's not really a reason to write LispOS in C, though 2015-10-04T15:46:51Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:47:16Z nyef: No, for a LispOS, you have other pragmatic considerations, mostly surrounding interrupts and GC. 2015-10-04T15:47:23Z nyef: Occasionally paging. 2015-10-04T15:47:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I'm not really sure about the best way to start on a project like this 2015-10-04T15:47:40Z beach: nyef: I can definitely see that. But to me, the price they pay (using C or a subset of Common Lisp) is very high and not worth it. Difference of opinion, I guess. 2015-10-04T15:48:01Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:48:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is why I've never really gotten past a fairly simple REPL in my bare-metal projects 2015-10-04T15:48:54Z nyef: I didn't even get to a REPL with my bare-metal project. 2015-10-04T15:49:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It was hardly a REPL :) I think it could just do arithmetic operations 2015-10-04T15:49:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: And there was something wrong with my implementation of cons. 2015-10-04T15:51:08Z nydel quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T15:51:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's actually not that difficult to get a full c environment on the bare metal, using something like newlib 2015-10-04T15:51:13Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T15:51:16Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:51:26Z nyef: Compiler included? 2015-10-04T15:51:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: No 2015-10-04T15:51:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just read in strings and interpreted them 2015-10-04T15:51:57Z nyef: Hardly a full environment, then, is it? 2015-10-04T15:52:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point was stdlib 2015-10-04T15:52:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might not be too hard to buld tcc for that inp' 2015-10-04T15:52:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/inp'// 2015-10-04T15:54:20Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:54:40Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:55:36Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T15:56:10Z yvm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T15:57:01Z beach: My thinking was that I wanted my code to look as "natural" as possible, not taking into account possible operational difficulties. So for instance, the SICL definition of STANDARD-CLASS looks like this (defclass standard-class (...) (...)). And the SICL LOOP macro uses LOOP for parsing clauses. 2015-10-04T15:57:45Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:58:10Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-04T15:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: how would that help someone who had an implementation of everything except, say, CLOS? 2015-10-04T15:59:41Z pjb: They could cross compile sicl to their system. 2015-10-04T15:59:46Z pjb: using sicl. 2015-10-04T16:00:05Z beach: It wouldn't. It is not meant for them. They would have to use a different Common Lisp implementation to bootstrap, or replace that definition with something that I don't want to write myself. 2015-10-04T16:00:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: Ah, I guess I misunderstood the README for your project 2015-10-04T16:00:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or it's out of date) 2015-10-04T16:00:40Z beach: Yeah, it might be. 2015-10-04T16:01:04Z beach: There was a time when I thought I might be able to write code using a subset of Common Lisp, but it turns out I am physically incapable of it. :) 2015-10-04T16:01:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be nice if this were true: "If you are an implementor with an incomplete CL and you want to incorporate some module from SICL into your implementation" 2015-10-04T16:01:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2015-10-04T16:01:49Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:02:05Z beach: That might still be true, at least partially. Perhaps not for all modules. 2015-10-04T16:02:14Z pjb: It would be very difficult to do that, since each user would want a different set of primitive, and it is rather difficult to restrict your code to some subset. 2015-10-04T16:02:19Z beach: In some cases, it might be enough to write some glue code. 2015-10-04T16:02:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll have to start a project of implementing the spec as a series of ordered modules, ultimately depending only on a minimal lisp 2015-10-04T16:02:56Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Good luck. Like I said, other people have more energy than I do. I can't get myself to do it. 2015-10-04T16:03:13Z pjb: Perhaps we could do something automatically, starting from a 100% CL implementation, if you declare what operators you don't have and what operator you have, then the system could macroexpand and re-implement the modules you want using the operators you have. 2015-10-04T16:03:22Z pjb: But this is a whole new research project. 2015-10-04T16:03:45Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:03:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: that's probably right. Although, you could define the presuppositions of each module ahead of time. 2015-10-04T16:04:05Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It is too easy to get circular dependencies. 2015-10-04T16:04:10Z pjb: You can do that by explicitely importing symbols from CL instead of using the whole CL. 2015-10-04T16:04:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: yeah, that's definitely true 2015-10-04T16:04:35Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And, as pjb said, there is no unique order, so each implementation (or implementer) would have a different order. 2015-10-04T16:05:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, things like car/cdr and cons seem to be necessarily prior to nearly everythign else 2015-10-04T16:05:21Z pjb: not really. 2015-10-04T16:05:35Z pjb: Yesterday again, somebody suggered implementing them with vectors. 2015-10-04T16:05:41Z sjas joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:05:45Z beach: "suggested" 2015-10-04T16:05:49Z pjb: And notice that in clisp, you have a compilation-time option of having a third slot to cons cells. 2015-10-04T16:05:58Z pjb: thanks. 2015-10-04T16:06:05Z smokeink quit (Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org) 2015-10-04T16:06:48Z beach: Anyway, I should go prepare dinner and spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2015-10-04T16:06:53Z beach: I might be back later. 2015-10-04T16:06:54Z pjb: Bon appetit! 2015-10-04T16:07:00Z beach: Merci! 2015-10-04T16:08:02Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:08:52Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:13:13Z logand joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:18:41Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:19:41Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:21:22Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:25:22Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T16:25:37Z EXID123_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:25:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:26:34Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:26:40Z sjas: \wc 2015-10-04T16:26:43Z sjas: sry 2015-10-04T16:26:46Z sjas left #lisp 2015-10-04T16:28:28Z p_l: actually, a LispOS project IMO should start with basic network fs (9p would be really easy to get running and can be done over fast serial channel) 2015-10-04T16:29:01Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T16:29:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:32:01Z nyef: I think that we all have our own ideas for how to go about writing a LispOS. 2015-10-04T16:32:22Z nyef: Also our own ideas as to what is critical to get right for such a system to be minimally usable. 2015-10-04T16:32:50Z p_l: the question is also if one wants to make Genera again or a modern multiuser/multiprogram one 2015-10-04T16:33:45Z EXID123_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T16:34:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2015-10-04T16:35:35Z EXID123 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T16:35:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Part of the question is should the common lisp standard also be the OS's API, with extensions for access to devices not specified in the standard 2015-10-04T16:36:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or should the kernel just be written in Common Lisp and it's API be something else. 2015-10-04T16:36:41Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:36:55Z pjb: p_l: Thisi s what Mezzano did. 2015-10-04T16:37:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: p_l: a network fs already presupposes a lot 2015-10-04T16:37:32Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: only an ethernet driver. 2015-10-04T16:37:36Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Not if it can be run over a serial link. 2015-10-04T16:38:04Z nyef: On the other hand, it does presuppose at least one device driver, and some amount of memory management. 2015-10-04T16:38:17Z nyef: It does NOT, however, presuppose interrupt handling. 2015-10-04T16:38:23Z pjb: There are some very easy ethernet hardware, that are usually emulated in VM and for which there are a lot of drivers, including written in lisp. 2015-10-04T16:38:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: well you need memory management and, probably, threading if you want it to be usable 2015-10-04T16:38:42Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: this is implemented in Mezzano. 2015-10-04T16:39:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, maybe we can just take Mezzano as the base line 2015-10-04T16:39:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm all for reusing pre-existing code 2015-10-04T16:39:50Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T16:39:59Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Have you tried using Mezzano yet? 2015-10-04T16:40:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: a bit 2015-10-04T16:40:14Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-04T16:40:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't done much programming for it 2015-10-04T16:40:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the image I built myself crashes almost immediately 2015-10-04T16:41:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: (unless I'm misunderstanding something) 2015-10-04T16:42:19Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:42:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:43:22Z fiddler-mezz joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:43:35Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-10-04T16:43:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:43:47Z fiddler-mezz writes from mezzano 2015-10-04T16:44:02Z pjb: yay! 2015-10-04T16:44:23Z nyef: Does Mezzano still pause quite perceptibly for GC? 2015-10-04T16:44:45Z fiddler-mezz: Yeah, at least the latest release does 2015-10-04T16:45:25Z fiddler-mezz: If I run mandelbrot in the background while typing, it pauses every little bit 2015-10-04T16:45:56Z nyef: How much of a pause? 2015-10-04T16:45:56Z fiddler-mezz: Anyone know how to get quicklisp on here? 2015-10-04T16:46:06Z fiddler-mezz: nyef: about a second or less 2015-10-04T16:46:09Z yvm joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:46:12Z nyef: Mmm. No fun. 2015-10-04T16:46:32Z nyef: Do you have a web browser? 2015-10-04T16:46:40Z fiddler-mezz: That's probably overestimating it, it's a bit like the way video lags over network 2015-10-04T16:46:45Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T16:46:52Z fiddler-mezz: nyef: not that I can see 2015-10-04T16:46:56Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-10-04T16:47:00Z fiddler-mezz: I do have ASDF 2015-10-04T16:47:09Z nyef: Do you have any sort of file-transfer? 2015-10-04T16:47:09Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:47:17Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:47:29Z fiddler-mezz: hmm . . . 2015-10-04T16:47:52Z fiddler-mezz: There's a telnet client 2015-10-04T16:48:01Z nyef: Failing that, a socket library, so that you can write something to get a file from another machine? 2015-10-04T16:48:23Z fiddler-mezz: I'm not sure how to access it, though: by default it just connects to nyan cat and nethack.alt.org 2015-10-04T16:49:04Z fiddler-mezz: The interface isn't very discoverable :) 2015-10-04T16:49:04Z nyef: I believe, at this point, that I'll just wish you luck. (-: 2015-10-04T16:49:24Z fiddler-mezz: Well, I have to update my Mac to El Capitan . . . 2015-10-04T16:49:43Z pjb: here, 40 min remaining downloading El Capitan. 2015-10-04T16:49:57Z nyef: Heh. I updated my Mac to Debian jessie. 2015-10-04T16:50:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I run Debian on one desktop and SmartOS on another 2015-10-04T16:50:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: OSX is just good enough that I don't care to figure out how to get Linux working on the hardware 2015-10-04T16:50:48Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T16:51:18Z pjb: partially undocumented hardware, too. 2015-10-04T16:51:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus, my laptop is basically just a thin client anyways: everythign I do is either via a web browser or via ssh to some Linux box 2015-10-04T16:51:46Z nyef: OSX was just bad enough at working on the hardware that I was already considering switching to Linux. And then my main Linux box died anyway and the only available CPU was my Mac... 2015-10-04T16:52:09Z fiddler-mezz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T16:52:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Apple really presupposes an SSD in recent builds of OSX 2015-10-04T16:53:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yosemite on a new mac vs. Yosemite on a 5 year old mac is night and day, and the only significant change seems to be the SSD 2015-10-04T16:53:20Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-04T16:53:20Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:53:50Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-04T16:53:58Z nyef: In my case, I'm running a 2010 Mac Mini. Suspend-to-disk doesn't work properly, and that was a major part of my use-case at the time. 2015-10-04T16:54:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah 2015-10-04T16:54:40Z nyef: It worked fine in 10.6, though. 2015-10-04T16:54:45Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-04T16:55:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: My current problem is that Time Machine over afp decides to erase it's history every week or so 2015-10-04T16:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Since the Time machine server runs Solaris and ZFS, I just take a snapshot and let it go its way :) 2015-10-04T16:56:19Z pjb: I use rsync for backups. Still unsatisfied by Time Machine… 2015-10-04T16:56:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Time Machine is nice because it's (mostly) transparent 2015-10-04T16:56:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I don't have to mess much with cron/etc. 2015-10-04T16:56:52Z pjb: Not sufficient for a backup system. 2015-10-04T16:57:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-04T16:57:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I backup my Linux box with rsync 2015-10-04T16:57:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: And use ZFS to emulate Time Machine's granularity 2015-10-04T16:58:17Z dim: pjb: the main use case of a backup system is restoring data, and Time Machine interactive/selective restore is quite nice IMO 2015-10-04T16:59:12Z pjb: Selective restore is almost never needed anymore now that we use DCVS for about everything. What you want to be sure is to be able to restore everything if your hardware fails or is stolen. 2015-10-04T16:59:35Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:00:10Z dim: well that sounds more "here's my own personal use case" than everything else 2015-10-04T17:00:16Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-04T17:00:17Z dim: s/everything/anything/ 2015-10-04T17:00:18Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T17:00:47Z pjb: Well, I get it that Time Machine could seem nice to Mac _users_. 2015-10-04T17:01:03Z pjb: For administrators and programmers, and non restricted to Mac, the problems are different. 2015-10-04T17:01:06Z dim: it allows non technical people to control data restore 2015-10-04T17:01:08Z dim: that's huge 2015-10-04T17:01:14Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-04T17:01:23Z dim: if not your use case, of course, rsync or BackupPC might be better options 2015-10-04T17:01:31Z pjb: As long as you have 24x the disk space on the backup than on the computer. 2015-10-04T17:01:44Z pjb: Otherwise you wonder why it erases backups older than a week… 2015-10-04T17:01:47Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I usually aim for 4x and it works fine, usually 2015-10-04T17:02:15Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:02:28Z dim: 256GB and 2TB backup disk is enough for me here 2015-10-04T17:02:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm still trying to fit storage upgrade into my budget, though 2015-10-04T17:02:48Z dim: the backup disk really is oversized actually, but it was cheap 2015-10-04T17:03:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I made a couple mistakes setting up ZFS (Raid-Z rather than mirroring + striping) that I'd like to eventually fix 2015-10-04T17:03:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm still trying to fit storage upgrade into my budget, though 2015-10-04T17:03:31Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T17:03:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: oops, my irc client is being annoying 2015-10-04T17:06:00Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:07:36Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:08:22Z dim: refactoring code with leaky/undefined/unclear abstractions is a drag 2015-10-04T17:09:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:09:06Z nyef: dim: Yes, it is. Start by refactoring to patch leaks in, define, and refine abstractions. d-: 2015-10-04T17:09:34Z dim: exactly what I'm doing, once again 2015-10-04T17:10:29Z dim: I want to continue believing that if that project was a full time projet I would take serious time and design it properly 2015-10-04T17:10:54Z dim: but really, it might be just learning (language, API, problem space, etc) as you go 2015-10-04T17:11:16Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:11:29Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:11:29Z hitecnologys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T17:12:11Z nyon_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:12:24Z nyon is now known as Guest95546 2015-10-04T17:12:35Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:12:49Z nyon_ is now known as nyon 2015-10-04T17:13:39Z Guest95546 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:14:43Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:15:50Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:18:11Z ogamita quit (Quit: ogamita) 2015-10-04T17:20:27Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:20:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:20:30Z EXID123 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T17:21:15Z yang joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:21:27Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:24:01Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-10-04T17:25:00Z otjura quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:25:52Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T17:25:57Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:26:06Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:26:26Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:27:12Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:28:19Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:30:17Z araujo quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T17:30:41Z Fare: minion: memo for resttime: to help with uiop:run-program on sbcl/windows, see https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1501373 2015-10-04T17:30:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell resttime when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-04T17:33:06Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:33:07Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:35:34Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T17:37:01Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:37:12Z Fade quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T17:37:48Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:40:18Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:40:20Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:40:49Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:40:50Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:41:17Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-10-04T17:44:59Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:48:11Z Tuxedo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:58:08Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-04T17:58:42Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:01:39Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:03:05Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T18:03:40Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:03:45Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:06:56Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:10:31Z developer quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T18:16:42Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:19:37Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-04T18:19:47Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-04T18:27:43Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-04T18:28:11Z nyon: How do I debug macros? That is, how do I see the result of the macro expansion process? 2015-10-04T18:28:22Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T18:28:30Z mike-1-2-3: are you using slime nyon? 2015-10-04T18:28:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:29:23Z nyon: Yes. 2015-10-04T18:29:34Z mike-1-2-3: put the cursor on first paren of the macro, then type C-c C-c 2015-10-04T18:30:06Z nyon: mike-1-2-3: Ah, thanks! :-) 2015-10-04T18:30:53Z mike-1-2-3: yw :) 2015-10-04T18:31:08Z logand quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T18:31:25Z logand joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:31:59Z ralt: Isn't it C-c C-m for the macro expansion? 2015-10-04T18:32:16Z mike-1-2-3: yeah i lied 2015-10-04T18:32:31Z mike-1-2-3: it's actually C-c C-return that i use. derp 2015-10-04T18:32:55Z mike-1-2-3: wrong again. C-c return 2015-10-04T18:33:15Z mike-1-2-3: *goes to get morning caffeine* 2015-10-04T18:33:38Z ralt: Australian? 2015-10-04T18:33:53Z mike-1-2-3: lazy american 2015-10-04T18:33:54Z dryt left #lisp 2015-10-04T18:34:03Z ralt: heh 2015-10-04T18:41:12Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:41:28Z EvW1 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T18:42:04Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:42:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T18:42:32Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-10-04T18:42:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:43:48Z nyon: mike-1-2-3: Noted. Thanks! 2015-10-04T18:44:27Z nyon: Whoa. I can even macro-expand step by step. :-) 2015-10-04T18:58:25Z Junjie joined #lisp 2015-10-04T18:59:19Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T19:04:26Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:07:52Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:12:36Z foom joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:19:20Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:21:07Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-10-04T19:21:25Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T19:22:12Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:24:29Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-04T19:24:29Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-04T19:24:33Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:25:06Z quasisan1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:25:14Z minion joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:25:24Z beach` joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:25:38Z logand` joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:26:27Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:26:43Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:26:44Z Wojciech_K quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T19:26:48Z Firedancer_ 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2015-10-04T19:51:28Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T19:52:30Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T19:55:31Z sakalli_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T19:57:53Z Fade joined #lisp 2015-10-04T19:58:41Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:01:08Z nyef: Requirements for a daily-use LispOS: No noticeable GC pauses. Has a web browser able to play youtube and vimeo videos. Has a text editor, an IRC client, and local audio and video players. 2015-10-04T20:01:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, you could always reimplement Mezzano's GC :) 2015-10-04T20:01:39Z nyef: Oh, and must not crash easily when hacking around. 2015-10-04T20:01:55Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T20:02:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:02:39Z nyef: Being able to act as a VM host would be a very nice bonus, but would also be a valid implementation tactic for getting a usable web browser with video support. 2015-10-04T20:02:42Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-04T20:03:20Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:03:33Z nyef: Umm... And, at this point, almost all of my input devices are bluetooth, so that'd be a good tiung to support. 2015-10-04T20:04:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the first goal, though, should be a platform for servers 2015-10-04T20:04:47Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-04T20:04:47Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-04T20:05:19Z nyef: Quite possibly. 2015-10-04T20:05:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially, virtualized servers 2015-10-04T20:05:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because the hardware is more or less "given": e1000 NIC, etc. 2015-10-04T20:06:25Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T20:06:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: And it's much easier to develop against a VM :) 2015-10-04T20:07:00Z nyef: On philosophical grounds, I think that running on Real Hardware is important. 2015-10-04T20:07:11Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:07:19Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:07:22Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:07:25Z nyef: A VM is nice and convenient, but it can end up taking shortcuts that Real Hardware never would. 2015-10-04T20:07:34Z logand` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T20:07:52Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T20:08:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if it's possible to set up virtualbox or something to randomize the hardware on boot . .. 2015-10-04T20:09:06Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:09:53Z nyef: Hardly counts. 2015-10-04T20:10:30Z maveneagle quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-04T20:10:51Z Fade quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-04T20:11:34Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:11:54Z nyef: Okay, what constitutes a "server LispOS"? 2015-10-04T20:12:15Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:12:30Z DeadTrickster: where can I find cffi example with struct with union inside? 2015-10-04T20:12:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:12:43Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:13:00Z DeadTrickster: should I defcunion and then use it as struct slot? 2015-10-04T20:14:54Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-04T20:16:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: basically, enough infrastructure to run something like hunchentoot and clack 2015-10-04T20:16:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, that would be a good start 2015-10-04T20:17:32Z ralt: DeadTrickster, yes 2015-10-04T20:17:55Z DeadTrickster: ralt, thx 2015-10-04T20:18:06Z ralt: an union is basically a struct whose length is the length of the biggest type in the union 2015-10-04T20:18:17Z ralt: so adjust accordingly 2015-10-04T20:18:28Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-10-04T20:18:34Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T20:18:41Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: So... Mezzano would probably work in that scenario? 2015-10-04T20:18:56Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T20:19:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:19:06Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:19:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: possibly, if only I could figure out how to get things onto it :) 2015-10-04T20:19:24Z nyef: 'swhat the file-server is for, in theory. 2015-10-04T20:20:43Z DeadTrickster: ralt, how to do it using groveller? cenum requires C name 2015-10-04T20:20:53Z ralt: nyef fiddlerwoaroof you know what would be great for a lisp OS? Providing a Linux compatible ABI 2015-10-04T20:20:53Z DeadTrickster: sunion of course 2015-10-04T20:20:56Z DeadTrickster: oh 2015-10-04T20:21:01Z DeadTrickster: cunion 2015-10-04T20:21:03Z Fade joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:21:23Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-04T20:21:38Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:21:44Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:22:13Z nyef: ralt: That would be one way to get some of the features that I would want, yes. But, at that point, why not run Linux? 2015-10-04T20:22:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T20:23:17Z ralt: nyef you get to run all programs that work on linux, and you have an repl for your system... well, a lisp machine 2015-10-04T20:23:38Z Shinmera: That's a bit too optimistic. 2015-10-04T20:24:11Z nyef: Oh, boy is it optimistic. 2015-10-04T20:24:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: FreeBSD tries that 2015-10-04T20:25:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It runs into surprising limitations 2015-10-04T20:26:51Z ralt: oh yes, I know it's very optimistic 2015-10-04T20:27:00Z ralt: that's just a "dream idea" 2015-10-04T20:28:22Z nyef: Might be easier to include a VM host and run a full Linux kernel + userland in that. 2015-10-04T20:28:34Z kristof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T20:28:39Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-04T20:29:03Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:30:14Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-04T20:31:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:32:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or just write a C to Lisp translator and run the kernel through that . . . :) 2015-10-04T20:33:51Z nyef: Zeta-C? 2015-10-04T20:34:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.cliki.net/Vacietis 2015-10-04T20:34:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: looks more recent 2015-10-04T20:35:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: That'd even give you a lisp libc 2015-10-04T20:35:56Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:35:57Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-04T20:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: sort of 2015-10-04T20:38:44Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:39:18Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-04T20:39:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be nice to have the capabilities of mosh (https://mosh.mit.edu/) somehow built in to the network stack 2015-10-04T20:40:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I doubt it would be really possible, though. 2015-10-04T20:43:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-04T20:44:49Z justinmcp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-04T20:46:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 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guys... when i prefix a word with colon, like :this 2015-10-04T22:11:42Z znpy: what does it mean? 2015-10-04T22:11:49Z znpy: is it quoted? 2015-10-04T22:11:55Z znpy: is it a symbol, right ? 2015-10-04T22:12:22Z |3b|: :this is a shortcut for keyword::this which is a constant with the symbol keyword::this as its value 2015-10-04T22:13:25Z znpy: okay 2015-10-04T22:13:29Z znpy: thanks |3b| 2015-10-04T22:14:21Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:16:03Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:16:57Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-04T22:17:40Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:19:36Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:22:30Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:22:52Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:24:53Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-04T22:28:10Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-04T22:30:13Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-05T02:29:23Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T02:30:16Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:39:47Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:44:06Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T02:44:50Z loke: Good morning Lisp 2015-10-05T02:47:09Z zematis joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:48:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:49:45Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-05T02:53:15Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:55:23Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-05T02:55:23Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-05T02:56:06Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-05T02:57:35Z jack-zhang joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:02:28Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:05:15Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-05T03:09:41Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T03:15:29Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T03:17:55Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:18:06Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-05T03:18:34Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:19:37Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-05T03:21:16Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-05T03:21:50Z warweasle quit (Quit: night.) 2015-10-05T03:27:16Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-05T03:31:54Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T03:33:14Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:36:06Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T03:36:17Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:38:44Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-05T03:40:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-05T03:43:22Z drmeister: Hello loke 2015-10-05T03:43:54Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-05T03:45:51Z oleo_: morning 2015-10-05T03:45:59Z blubjr: hi.. 2015-10-05T03:53:22Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T03:55:16Z White__Flame: There was some mention of the Genera character set a bit ago, saying it was ASCII. For my own benefit in decoding files from there including "strange" codes, I compiled the character set using #'code-char: https://imgur.com/a/AvbN7 2015-10-05T03:55:40Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2015-10-05T03:56:26Z nyef: Well, aside from code points 00-1F and code point 7F, it looks like ASCII to me. 2015-10-05T03:57:02Z White_Flame: right, but ascii does specify 00-1f 2015-10-05T03:57:16Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T03:57:17Z nyef: And 7F, IIRC. 2015-10-05T03:57:40Z nyef: But details, details. 2015-10-05T03:57:51Z White_Flame: hmm, yes it does. "DEL" 2015-10-05T03:58:51Z White_Flame: heh, and it's already got a downvote on the site 2015-10-05T03:59:00Z snv1: Any reason making char-type different from byte? Besides making it 7-bit. 2015-10-05T03:59:27Z White_Flame: in genera, it's 24-bit. 16 bits for the character, and 8 for style & font (I believe) 2015-10-05T04:00:00Z White_Flame: with unicode support, you likely want to store larger words, instead of dealing with UTF-8 internally 2015-10-05T04:00:08Z snv1: White_Flame, why wasting so much memory? 2015-10-05T04:00:15Z beach` is now known as beach 2015-10-05T04:00:21Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-05T04:00:27Z snv1: And unicode of more of a gimmick. 2015-10-05T04:00:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-05T04:00:43Z snv1: everyone uses english GUI anyway 2015-10-05T04:00:45Z White_Flame: snv1: do all the cyrillic characters also fit in 7-bit along with latin? 2015-10-05T04:00:49Z beach: And hello nyef! :) 2015-10-05T04:01:12Z snv1: White_Flame, you can transliterate cyrillic into latin1 2015-10-05T04:01:33Z nyef: snv1: Japanese and Chinese? 2015-10-05T04:01:36Z snv1: I've never seen people using unicode in symbol names. 2015-10-05T04:01:51Z snv1: nyef, they can be written using latin1 too 2015-10-05T04:01:59Z White_Flame: I have, probably the most common is the lambda character 2015-10-05T04:02:01Z nyef: There's a loss of fidelity. 2015-10-05T04:02:15Z snv1: no good reason supporting hieroglyphs in 21st century 2015-10-05T04:02:24Z White_Flame: but I've also seen german & french source code with their respective glyphs in symbols 2015-10-05T04:02:50Z nyef: snv1: Next you'll be complaining about people supporting Linear B in their systems! 2015-10-05T04:02:52Z snv1: besides some archeology uses, but these can directly employ integers to represent chars 2015-10-05T04:03:16Z snv1: nyef, nope. DOS had just latin1 and nobody complained 2015-10-05T04:03:21Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-05T04:03:30Z White_Flame: DOS just had latin1 and everybody made their own font pages 2015-10-05T04:03:48Z nyef: ... DOS? Latin1? Hahahaha! I _still_ have to deal with CP437 every so often these days. 2015-10-05T04:03:49Z White_Flame: and generally used them offline with region-specific software 2015-10-05T04:03:50Z snv1: White_Flame, nope. In russia people used translit 2015-10-05T04:04:06Z White_Flame: russia != "everybody" 2015-10-05T04:04:29Z snv1: White_Flame, everybody should accept latin1 as the one true god. 2015-10-05T04:04:41Z nyef: I think that we're done here. 2015-10-05T04:04:42Z White_Flame: I think Unicode covers that 2015-10-05T04:04:52Z nyef: Let's find a different touchy topic to discuss. 2015-10-05T04:05:14Z White_Flame: but regarding your initial statement, large character representation is a good memory tradeoff in terms of performance, code simplicity, and interoperability 2015-10-05T04:05:25Z nyef almost misses the gun control debates that we used to have in here. Beats listening to people bitch about Unicode, at least. 2015-10-05T04:05:28Z snv1: When Paul Graham has released his Arc, the main criticism was that he haven't supported unicode. That is just stupid. Everybody knows english in our age. 2015-10-05T04:06:20Z White_Flame: don't just consider the source code text, but also the content of strings being passed around. C really hurts working with international strings due to that decision 2015-10-05T04:08:10Z snv1: White_Flame, just make english mandatory in schools and second government language. Problem solved. 2015-10-05T04:08:33Z White_Flame: so chat applications will never support anything english either 2015-10-05T04:08:46Z White_Flame: and no document written using non-latin characters will ever be viewable 2015-10-05T04:09:16Z White_Flame: but yeah, all has been said that needs to be said. If you care about performance, which you have harped on in the past, large characters = faster, smaller code 2015-10-05T04:09:41Z White_Flame: (oops, s/english/but english/ above) 2015-10-05T04:09:42Z jeaye quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-05T04:10:31Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:12:40Z snv1: White_Flame, special symbols can be inserted as vector drawings. 2015-10-05T04:13:23Z White_Flame: yes, they're called "fonts" ;) 2015-10-05T04:15:16Z snv1: White_Flame, they are called Adobe Flash and Silverlight 2015-10-05T04:16:14Z beach: nyef: You are right that improving generic dispatch in Clasp will make a big difference. 2015-10-05T04:16:42Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-05T04:18:49Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:19:12Z jack-zhang quit (Quit: 离开) 2015-10-05T04:21:54Z keen___________3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:22:23Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:22:51Z keen___________2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:23:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:24:00Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:27:04Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:31:17Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:37:57Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:37:59Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:44:05Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:44:32Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:45:22Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:45:47Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-05T04:46:56Z loke: Is João Távora (capitaomorte), hunchensocket authour, ever on the channel? 2015-10-05T04:47:18Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T04:49:19Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T04:49:24Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:50:06Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-05T04:50:52Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:52:57Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:53:27Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-10-05T04:57:27Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-05T04:58:29Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T05:00:15Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:02:40Z Fare: not very often 2015-10-05T05:02:57Z loke: OK 2015-10-05T05:03:02Z loke: Thanks fare 2015-10-05T05:03:59Z loke: Fare: I just realised that I haven't associated you with a picture yet, so here it is: https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/32/101995041_cc6897f184.jpg 2015-10-05T05:06:16Z loke: And this is White_Flame: http://s146.photobucket.com/user/papa_r0ach/media/ImgBlog/DSC_0356.jpg.html 2015-10-05T05:10:52Z Fare: loke: why a philipino train? 2015-10-05T05:11:10Z loke: Fare: I dunno. Just something google gave me when I searched for train cards :-) 2015-10-05T05:12:04Z Fare: loke: try this one instead: http://cdn3.vtourist.com/19/4667607-a_fare_adjustment_machine_Tokyo.jpg 2015-10-05T05:12:22Z loke: Haha. Well :-) 2015-10-05T05:12:36Z loke: The machine isn't "fare" though. It works with fares. 2015-10-05T05:13:41Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-05T05:14:05Z loke: Metafare? 2015-10-05T05:14:38Z Fare: Oh, well, then... http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TwBtWsv5cbM/UECaT8nm5rI/AAAAAAAABIk/tRoURX8lgWo/s400/Charon.jpg 2015-10-05T05:14:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:14:53Z loke: OK, that's better :-) 2015-10-05T05:16:46Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:17:08Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:19:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T05:22:25Z snv1: Fare, does it run Lisp? 2015-10-05T05:22:45Z beach: Fare: Given how you pronounce your name, I would associate it with two consecutive notes FA - RE. 2015-10-05T05:23:40Z loke: beach: To be hoest, that's how I pronounce it too, but I couldn't think of an appropriate image to go with that :-) 2015-10-05T05:23:51Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-05T05:25:06Z beach: loke: Er, two consecutive notes in standard music notation? 2015-10-05T05:25:16Z beach: That makes a good image. 2015-10-05T05:25:20Z sakalli_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:25:37Z loke: beach: Interesting idea. 2015-10-05T05:25:40Z ym joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:26:03Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T05:26:27Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:32:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:33:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:35:46Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T05:36:00Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-05T05:39:51Z bgs101 is now known as bgs100 2015-10-05T05:40:57Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T05:44:43Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T05:45:20Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-05T05:45:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T05:56:14Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:00:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:01:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:02:40Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:04:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:05:55Z zematis quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-05T06:09:42Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-05T06:10:20Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:11:20Z Angelo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:11:30Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-05T06:12:46Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-10-05T06:12:46Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:13:04Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:13:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:15:54Z Angelo__ is now known as Angelo_ 2015-10-05T06:19:30Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:20:53Z sakalli_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:22:30Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:27:02Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:29:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:30:47Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:31:16Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:31:17Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:35:24Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:41:27Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T06:42:27Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-05T06:42:55Z Firedancer_ is now known as Firedancer 2015-10-05T06:43:03Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-05T06:43:21Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:44:21Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:45:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:46:43Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:46:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:46:51Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:47:21Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:47:32Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-05T06:47:58Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T06:48:15Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:49:40Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:49:52Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:52:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:52:41Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T06:52:58Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:53:00Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:54:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T06:55:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:56:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:57:48Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:58:58Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-05T06:59:49Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp 2015-10-05T07:00:41Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:00:42Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:02:43Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Changing host) 2015-10-05T07:02:43Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:03:00Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:03:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:03:17Z loke: Shinmera: Good afternoon Shinmera 2015-10-05T07:05:09Z Shinmera: Looks like Autobuild is working out for drmeister so far. I'm really happy about that. 2015-10-05T07:07:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:07:10Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:07:12Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:12:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:18:38Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-05T07:19:34Z sakalli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:20:44Z Angelo_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T07:20:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:22:34Z loke: Shinmera: autobuild? Is it making clasp easier to build? 2015-10-05T07:27:08Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:28:22Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:29:02Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:30:12Z Shinmera: loke: It's a continuous integration system, basically. Just performs automatic builds for clasp based on a recipe. 2015-10-05T07:30:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:30:28Z Shinmera: loke: Making clasp easier to build is currently being worked on. 2015-10-05T07:30:29Z loke: Shinmera: so building it is still difficult/impossible? 2015-10-05T07:30:59Z Shinmera: Currently it's very fragile, but externals-clasp is being eliminated and dynamic linking instead of static linking is being aded. 2015-10-05T07:31:06Z Shinmera: *added 2015-10-05T07:31:18Z Shinmera: That should make things a lot easier. 2015-10-05T07:32:44Z Shinmera: I'm also intending on adding binary releases for x86_64 linux and os x once 0.4.0 is out. 2015-10-05T07:33:33Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T07:37:06Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T07:38:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:38:21Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:49:28Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:52:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:53:29Z eehah5ru joined #lisp 2015-10-05T07:57:42Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:00:45Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-10-05T08:01:10Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:01:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T08:01:21Z balle joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:02:19Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T08:04:46Z loke: Shinmera: Cool. Thanks.\ 2015-10-05T08:05:06Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:07:02Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T08:07:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:12:18Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-05T08:12:21Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-05T08:14:14Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:16:03Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:16:17Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:17:26Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T08:17:48Z jackdaniel: 2/win 2 2015-10-05T08:18:06Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-05T08:18:16Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-05T08:22:28Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Does it sound interesting/worthwhile to you? 2015-10-05T13:48:09Z emaczen: loke`: is cl-js a newer parenscript? 2015-10-05T13:48:16Z emaczen: I've seen a project page for it before 2015-10-05T13:48:22Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:48:22Z gaya- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T13:48:23Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:49:08Z Xach: cl-js is a js engine that runs javascript code. parenscript translates cl-like code to javascript. 2015-10-05T13:49:51Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-05T13:50:08Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:50:54Z emaczen: loke`: With Xach's clarification of cl-js, I think what you say is valid. 2015-10-05T13:51:08Z akkad: Xach if I wanted to use zs3 to pull a gzipped file, would i use get-octets? or get-object? trying to get it to work with gzip-stream and so far can't get the binary format right. 2015-10-05T13:51:38Z Xach: akkad: What do you mean by "pull"? 2015-10-05T13:51:48Z Xach: akkad: Do you want the S3 object copied to the local filesystem? 2015-10-05T13:51:52Z akkad: get 2015-10-05T13:51:58Z akkad: yes. 2015-10-05T13:51:59Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:52:11Z loke`: cl-js does need an update though, it's not fully compatible with modern JS. It should have absolutely no problem with that's emitted from parenscript though 2015-10-05T13:52:17Z akkad: well perhaps copying to localfile system, then just treat it as a file would be easier than trying to gunzip/json parse in memory 2015-10-05T13:52:31Z Xach: akkad: The easiest thing to use is get-file, then. 2015-10-05T13:52:37Z akkad: k. thanks 2015-10-05T13:52:42Z loke`: One funny thing is that I ran som ebenchmarks on cl-js running on SBCL, and it ran the tests as fast as the latest version of v8 on chrome. 2015-10-05T13:52:50Z akkad: I've already got that all written out, wanted to avoid the local copy to disk. 2015-10-05T13:53:11Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-10-05T13:53:29Z Xach: akkad: if you want the object's contents in memory, get-vector is the easiest thing 2015-10-05T13:53:40Z eudoxia: the only problem i've ever had with cl-js is this weird memory failure when trying to create an object that inherits the Error prototype 2015-10-05T13:54:03Z akkad: then just read-stream on that? the streams part of reading in binary is the part I've gotten stuck on 2015-10-05T13:54:30Z Xach: akkad: there is no stream. if you want to treat the vector like a stream, you have to do more. 2015-10-05T13:54:47Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T13:54:52Z lisper29` joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:55:20Z akkad: so how would you apply salsa2 to it in memory? 2015-10-05T13:55:55Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T13:56:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:56:13Z Xach: akkad: salza2 is for compression, not decompression. 2015-10-05T13:56:30Z akkad: chipz 2015-10-05T13:56:45Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:57:16Z Xach: akkad: I would look at the API for chipz to see if it supports decompressing a complete in-memory gzip stream. If it doesn't, I'd look at something like flexi-streams to wrap the vector in a stream and work from there. 2015-10-05T13:57:36Z akkad: awesome, thanks again. especially for zs3 2015-10-05T13:57:40Z Xach: no problem 2015-10-05T13:58:08Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T13:58:14Z loke`: Speaking of zs3. I noticed it has some compabilitities with Riak and Google Cloud Storage 2015-10-05T13:58:21Z loke`: I mena INcompatibilities 2015-10-05T13:58:29Z loke`: I mean mean 2015-10-05T13:58:47Z Xach: Do those implement the S3 API? 2015-10-05T13:59:05Z loke`: Xach: yes more or less 2015-10-05T13:59:57Z loke`: (I mean, it implements a subset of it). Unfortunately for me, different subsets, and I need both missing features so I can't actually use any of them yet. That said, the incompatibilities with zs3 are in the base feature set 2015-10-05T14:00:42Z Xach: I need to make some updates so it supports the latest auth scheme, too. 2015-10-05T14:03:22Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T14:04:22Z loke`: Xach: the incompatibilities were related to some hardcoded expectations as to what the URL's are 2015-10-05T14:04:35Z loke`: if you use a cmpletely different url prefix, there was something that broke. 2015-10-05T14:04:46Z loke`: I solved it by hardcoding the URL's 2015-10-05T14:05:50Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:07:28Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:08:07Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:09:15Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T14:12:21Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:14:48Z lisper29` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T14:17:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:19:25Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:19:25Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T14:22:19Z akkad: loke` thanks, this solves my problem 2015-10-05T14:22:43Z himmAllRight|W joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:23:22Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:24:46Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:24:46Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T14:26:30Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:29:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:30:56Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:31:07Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:31:58Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:33:35Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T14:34:31Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T14:34:36Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:34:39Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:34:47Z Shinmera: Oh boy! https://twitter.com/elsconf/status/651042760162713600 2015-10-05T14:37:09Z eudoxia: when are you uploading the videos you hack frauds 2015-10-05T14:37:53Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T14:39:14Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:40:15Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:40:45Z Xach: Hack frauds? 2015-10-05T14:41:37Z Shinmera: I'm sure accusing people is going to make them just love to work on it even more! 2015-10-05T14:41:38Z eudoxia: it's an endearing term :p 2015-10-05T14:41:53Z eudoxia: but seriously, it's been like eight months 2015-10-05T14:42:08Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:42:19Z Xach: I wish every lisp conference had good-quality videos available promptly, but I have lost hope that it will ever happen. 2015-10-05T14:44:06Z Xach: I also find that even when videos are available, I rarely make time to watch them...maybe that's just me. 2015-10-05T14:47:34Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T14:48:13Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:48:32Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T14:48:38Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T14:50:00Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-10-05T14:50:15Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:50:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:50:55Z shka quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T14:50:59Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T14:51:02Z loke`: Xach: I just wish I could go to one 2015-10-05T14:51:17Z loke`: But none ever happen in this neck of the world 2015-10-05T14:51:28Z Xach: I don't know if I'll make it to this one, now that I don't have an employer to foot the bill. 2015-10-05T14:52:25Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:52:35Z Shinmera: I hope to make it, but exams in winter and the fact that I don't know the semester schedule for spring make it a bit uncertain. 2015-10-05T14:53:46Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T14:53:59Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:54:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:55:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:55:45Z Krystof: it's been like 5½ months 2015-10-05T14:56:20Z Krystof: not that that's any more acceptable than eight months 2015-10-05T14:56:56Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T14:57:11Z Krystof: but, on the third hand, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/CRnV7UCzJy0/uweggfc3-PUJ 2015-10-05T14:57:56Z sakalli quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:58:00Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T14:58:24Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-05T14:58:27Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T14:58:28Z Xach: I have always found that post quite inspirational 2015-10-05T14:59:12Z Krystof: it has its moments. One message is "yes, it is possible to make a difference" 2015-10-05T14:59:34Z Krystof: (another is "but only at some cost, and don't expect universal thanks") 2015-10-05T14:59:47Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:01:06Z Shinmera: I've always just done things because the alternatives pissed me off in some way. People also using the results of my labour are just a nice side effect. 2015-10-05T15:01:14Z Shinmera: *is just 2015-10-05T15:01:24Z Krystof: so maybe I'm just not being pissed off enough by the absence of ELS2015 videos 2015-10-05T15:01:36Z Krystof: well, sorry, I was there, so I don't need the videos 2015-10-05T15:01:45Z Shinmera: You could try contacting Xof to see if he can provide you with the rare videos and edit them yourself. 2015-10-05T15:03:04Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T15:03:18Z Krystof: one other point is that it's less the edits, though that is tedious, but more the rights, distribution, and the fact that the footage is depressingly low quality 2015-10-05T15:03:35Z Krystof: also I have a billion other things to do 2015-10-05T15:03:44Z Shinmera: I'm sure Xof has a billion other things to do too. 2015-10-05T15:03:48Z Krystof: ... 2015-10-05T15:03:52Z Krystof: not sure if sarcastic 2015-10-05T15:04:11Z Shinmera: I'm not being sarcastic at all. 2015-10-05T15:04:13Z Krystof: (you do know that Xof is my alternate nick, right?) 2015-10-05T15:04:16Z Shinmera: Oh 2015-10-05T15:04:18Z Shinmera: no 2015-10-05T15:04:20Z Krystof: aha 2015-10-05T15:04:23Z Shinmera: Now I feel very silly! 2015-10-05T15:04:25Z Krystof: then I can see why you were confused :-) 2015-10-05T15:04:36Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:04:51Z Shinmera is very bad with names 2015-10-05T15:05:07Z Xach fails to contain a chortle 2015-10-05T15:05:44Z Shinmera: I was thinking of offering to do the editing at some point, but unfortunately university is hitting me hard. 2015-10-05T15:06:47Z Shinmera: And I've gotten more involved with clasp, so I have responsibilities there now. 2015-10-05T15:07:01Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:09:46Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:10:19Z Krystof: yeah 2015-10-05T15:10:24Z Krystof: time is the thing we're all short of 2015-10-05T15:11:39Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:12:39Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:13:14Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:13:17Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:13:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T15:17:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:18:32Z splittist: And videos. We're all short of videos. 2015-10-05T15:20:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:20:31Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:20:39Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:22:00Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:27:20Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:27:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:27:52Z jself quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-05T15:28:14Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:29:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:30:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:30:57Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-05T15:31:00Z pjb: Clearly, there's an opportunity for a lisp startup that would make it easy to capture and upload immediately any conference. 2015-10-05T15:31:57Z pjb: It could even use multiple devices (the handheld computers in the assistance) to make it a 3D experience and improve image and sound quality. 2015-10-05T15:32:04Z drmeister: Does anyone use "cmake" much? How do I tell it to link a library to its targets? 2015-10-05T15:32:07Z musegarden1 quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-05T15:32:27Z p_l: well, I'll see what I can cook up,but I expect lots of grumblings 2015-10-05T15:32:32Z pjb: drmeister: I never have used cmake voluntarily. Only constrained and forced, to compile and install some other software. 2015-10-05T15:32:43Z musegarden1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:33:12Z pjb: For me, the essence of make is embodied by the kermit makefile. Not my autotools, cmake, scons or whatever. 2015-10-05T15:33:20Z pjb: s/my/by/ 2015-10-05T15:33:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:34:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:35:53Z atgnag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:36:06Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:37:55Z gaya- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T15:38:04Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:40:30Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T15:40:48Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:40:49Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:40:54Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:41:37Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-10-05T15:41:52Z {AS}: Hi, how do you say "Quasiquotation" in Norwegian? 2015-10-05T15:42:22Z {AS}: I know this is a weird question, but I thought the term is used a lot in Lisp and there are probably someone from Norway here :) 2015-10-05T15:42:36Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:44:50Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-05T15:44:56Z pjb: There's also news:no.it.programmering.lisp 2015-10-05T15:45:38Z {AS}: Thanks 2015-10-05T15:46:16Z dwchandler: Kvasisitatm, kanskje. Jeg vet ikke. 2015-10-05T15:46:36Z dwchandler: *Kvasisitat 2015-10-05T15:46:50Z {AS}: Tak :) 2015-10-05T15:47:12Z dwchandler: ingen årsak 2015-10-05T15:47:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T15:48:11Z dwchandler: My Norwegian isn't that good, so don't take that too seriously 2015-10-05T15:50:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T15:50:25Z dwchandler: There's a good chance that they just use the English terms 2015-10-05T15:50:38Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:52:24Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:53:00Z {AS}: The reason I asked for Norwegian is because they often translate things :) 2015-10-05T15:53:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:53:11Z {AS}: Compared to Danish 2015-10-05T15:54:03Z durm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T15:54:53Z dwchandler: Er du dansk? 2015-10-05T15:55:23Z {AS}: Ja 2015-10-05T15:56:11Z {AS}: Although, I was asking for a friend :) 2015-10-05T15:56:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:56:36Z dwchandler: Sure... ;-) 2015-10-05T15:56:45Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:57:59Z erjag joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:58:23Z sundo joined #lisp 2015-10-05T15:59:46Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:00:01Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:03:55Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:04:48Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:07:08Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:07:59Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:08:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T16:10:21Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T16:11:54Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:15:06Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:17:29Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:19:24Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:19:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:19:47Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T16:21:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-05T16:22:11Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-05T16:22:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:25:09Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:27:56Z heddwch is now known as heddvvch 2015-10-05T16:27:59Z heddvvch is now known as heddwch 2015-10-05T16:28:20Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:29:08Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:29:09Z Fare finds himself in bootstrap hell 2015-10-05T16:29:14Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:30:08Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-05T16:34:35Z dwchandler: bootstrapping was designed with hell in mind 2015-10-05T16:34:50Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-05T16:35:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:36:11Z Fare: hint: lisps that have old versions of asdf can't deal with an asdf checkout that itself includes an old version of asdf in build/old/ for comparison or extraction purposes. 2015-10-05T16:36:37Z Fare: dwchandler, our ancestors bootstrapped civilization. They were better people than us. 2015-10-05T16:36:47Z Fare: in some ways 2015-10-05T16:38:26Z Fare is reminded of Paul Rosenberg's "Production vs Plunder". http://www.thedailybell.com/biographies/36452/Paul-Rosenberg/ 2015-10-05T16:39:31Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T16:40:36Z dwchandler: Fare: is there a TL;DR for that? 2015-10-05T16:41:16Z dwchandler: I read the linked page, but not quite ready to read the whole book 2015-10-05T16:42:41Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T16:44:43Z ym: How do I handle events from outside of lisp system (evdev mouse events for example) without threads and, more significantly, without events loss? 2015-10-05T16:45:12Z Fare: dwchandler, it's all getting off topic. I haven't finished that book by Rosenberg, but his "A Lodging of Wayfaring Men" was a classic of fiction, tackling internet crypto-currency and much more way before the days, and many other topics touching politics, economics, science, religion, education, love, etc. 2015-10-05T16:45:45Z Fare: ym: there are libraries for that, but not sure what you mean. In the same process as Lisp? In a different process (then what relationship to #lisp) ? 2015-10-05T16:46:07Z Fare: libev, libevents, libuv... plenty of alternatives (dunno which is hotter right now) 2015-10-05T16:46:30Z Fare: some of them have CL bindings, too. 2015-10-05T16:47:33Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T16:48:09Z Fare: in CL, there's IOLib. 2015-10-05T16:51:06Z ym: I read several bytes from /dev/input/event1 in main loop in lisp process with read-sequense, then check these bytes with case. Some events get lost. 2015-10-05T16:51:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-05T16:53:42Z dwchandler: ym: I'd pick an interface like epoll/kqueue instead, or like Fare suggests use a library 2015-10-05T16:55:40Z ym: Just curious how such kind of problems was solved on old machines when there are wasn't threading at all. 2015-10-05T16:56:20Z ym: But it's really off-topic. 2015-10-05T16:57:52Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T16:58:27Z warweasle: ym: Where there as always been threading. Just sometimes there is only one. 2015-10-05T16:58:27Z minion: warweasle, memo from pjb: arnesi contains the required code (delimited continuations) for you to imlpement running function serialization/deserialization. 2015-10-05T16:58:27Z minion: warweasle, memo from pjb: if you want to save a closure, then you need to include in the closure the saving method. cf. make-load-form make-load-form-saving-slots 2015-10-05T16:58:27Z minion: warweasle, memo from pjb: if you want to save documents as code, see Patchwork or Gsharp for two different examples. 2015-10-05T16:58:52Z warweasle: woah..memos. 2015-10-05T17:00:50Z dwchandler: ym: usually the OS has a buffer of events, and some interface to check them. fail to check often enough and things get lost 2015-10-05T17:01:21Z warweasle: dwchandler: Windows 3.1 was bad about that. One application could lock your computer. 2015-10-05T17:01:36Z warweasle: annnnnnd I'm old. 2015-10-05T17:01:47Z dwchandler: me too 2015-10-05T17:03:02Z warweasle: dwchandler: Generally they used cooperative multi-threading when they couldn't rely on hardware context changes, correct? 2015-10-05T17:04:00Z dwchandler: yeah, you had to be careful to yield during long running computations and such 2015-10-05T17:04:29Z dwchandler: most win api calls would do that for you 2015-10-05T17:04:47Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:05:05Z dwchandler: but if you were writing, say, a ray tracer, you could lock the machine 2015-10-05T17:05:22Z warweasle: dwchandler: Memories there. 2015-10-05T17:05:46Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:06:48Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:07:14Z warweasle remembers a book where you use C to compile a shader language. 2015-10-05T17:08:34Z warweasle: A program per image. 2015-10-05T17:08:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:08:42Z ym: I think epoll is what I need. 2015-10-05T17:08:54Z ym: Thanks for suggestions, BTW. 2015-10-05T17:09:01Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T17:09:19Z dwchandler: epoll on linux, kqueue anywhere you can get it 2015-10-05T17:09:34Z nate_c joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:10:12Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:10:19Z fe[nl]ix: ym: there's epoll support in IOlib 2015-10-05T17:13:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:14:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:17:02Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:23:57Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:24:07Z warweasle: "ESA: A CLIM Library for Writing Emacs-Style Applications" Why would anyone do such a thing? 2015-10-05T17:26:38Z Krystof: you could read the paper and find out 2015-10-05T17:28:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T17:29:19Z warweasle: Krystof: It actually sounds interesting. But my first reaction is "What?" 2015-10-05T17:30:13Z rick-mon`: I have a couple of trivial updates/bugfixes to quicklisp software by a particular author, but when contacted him he said he is not doing lisp any more and doesn't want to maintain the libraries whatsoever. Is there any other way to get my patches into quicklisp? 2015-10-05T17:30:29Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T17:30:45Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:31:19Z Trystam joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:31:39Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:32:52Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T17:33:46Z Fare: is CLIM alive? 2015-10-05T17:34:08Z Fare: rick-mon`, fork the libraries, and become the new upstream 2015-10-05T17:34:44Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:34:49Z Fare: and/or have have them adopted by https://github.com/sharplispers 2015-10-05T17:37:33Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2015-10-05T17:38:23Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:38:55Z mike-1-2-3: is there anything special you have to do to make an executable that will run on windows? It gives me a "this is a 16 bit executable, I can't run it" error 2015-10-05T17:39:09Z Fare: mike-1-2-3, using what? 2015-10-05T17:39:19Z mike-1-2-3: sbcl, save-lisp-and-die 2015-10-05T17:39:25Z Fare: it just works for me 2015-10-05T17:39:30Z Fare: try asdf:program-op 2015-10-05T17:39:41Z Fare: and/or cl-launch (if you have cygwin) 2015-10-05T17:40:10Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:41:04Z mike-1-2-3: ok I'll try it. to clarify, I'm developing on debian and trying to make the executable here as well, I don't have access to a windows computer with lisp on it 2015-10-05T17:42:36Z rme: That's going to be hard to make work. 2015-10-05T17:42:44Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:42:52Z Fare: mike-1-2-3, debugging without a machine is hard 2015-10-05T17:43:04Z Fare: reminds me I need help debugging uiop:run-program on sbcl/windows 2015-10-05T17:43:16Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:44:06Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:44:13Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:44:51Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:45:40Z rick-mon`: Fare - seems to me that my fork should retain the same name, as the changes are totally trivial? I'm not sure of etiquette/potential for confusion here... 2015-10-05T17:46:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T17:46:37Z digiorgi: how can i delete/unbind a variable? 2015-10-05T17:46:51Z digiorgi: or.. detroy a symbol 2015-10-05T17:50:03Z oGMo: makunbound, fmakunbound, unintern 2015-10-05T17:50:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:50:44Z oGMo: but, if you're using those in your code, you're probably doing something wrong 2015-10-05T17:52:03Z digiorgi: yehaa, it is just for the repl 2015-10-05T17:52:34Z digiorgi: thanks 2015-10-05T17:54:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-05T17:56:48Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:01:25Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:03:23Z kristof quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T18:05:10Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T18:09:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:12:24Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:16:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:18:22Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:18:33Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T18:18:35Z heddwch is now known as can 2015-10-05T18:18:40Z can is now known as heddwch 2015-10-05T18:18:51Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:18:59Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-10-05T18:18:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:20:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:22:46Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:23:03Z eschulte_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:23:07Z eschulte joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:23:40Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:24:13Z blubjr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:24:13Z eschulte_: does SBCL support tracing only particular methods of a generic function with cl-user:trace? 2015-10-05T18:25:04Z eschulte_ left #lisp 2015-10-05T18:25:13Z jackdaniel: Fare: putting aside automatic initialization - was my monolithic builds explanation helpful? 2015-10-05T18:26:03Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:26:24Z Acherontius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T18:28:09Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:28:43Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:28:46Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:31:23Z Acherontius quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T18:31:58Z p8m joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:32:18Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-05T18:36:02Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-05T18:36:50Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:36:58Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T18:36:59Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:37:13Z zaquest joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:40:05Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:40:23Z palter joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:43:04Z Fare: jackc-, yes, it was, thanks 2015-10-05T18:43:15Z Fare: if you have an "internals" document, that should be in it 2015-10-05T18:43:21Z Fare: jackdaniel, sorry 2015-10-05T18:43:25Z jackdaniel: np 2015-10-05T18:43:31Z jackdaniel: I'm in process of writing it 2015-10-05T18:43:36Z vsync___ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:43:45Z Fare: eschulte, I believe so. SLIME can do it IIRC 2015-10-05T18:43:55Z vsync- joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:43:56Z vsync_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T18:44:01Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:44:28Z Fare: oGMo: I've used fmakunbound and unintern in the ASDF self-upgrade code 2015-10-05T18:45:02Z Fare: although I think I'm not using unintern anymore at this point (though worse --- if upgrading from an ancient ASDF, I rename the entire package away). 2015-10-05T18:45:38Z vsync___ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:46:28Z eschulte: Fare: do you know how? I don't see how to pass a specific method to cl-user:trace, and the closest SBCL option seems to be :condition, but it's not clear how to access the function or arguments at that point... 2015-10-05T18:48:12Z jackdaniel: (typep specializer 'bah) maybe? 2015-10-05T18:48:22Z jackdaniel: (just guessing) 2015-10-05T18:49:24Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:50:06Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:51:41Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T18:53:30Z oGMo: Fare: oh, sure, it's "you shouldn't use it (until you know when it's appropriate)" 2015-10-05T18:54:08Z oGMo: like goto, eval, or other constructs easy to abuse 2015-10-05T18:54:24Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:56:29Z Fare: "using is it breaking the kayfabe" 2015-10-05T18:56:41Z Fare: s/is it/it is/ 2015-10-05T18:59:08Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-05T18:59:59Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:01:02Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:06:23Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:07:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:07:57Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-05T19:08:02Z raazdaan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-05T19:08:45Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:11:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:13:28Z raazdaan quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-05T19:14:11Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:15:19Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:16:45Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T19:18:22Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:24:41Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:27:38Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:29:57Z warweasle quit (Quit: I think I'm sick.) 2015-10-05T19:30:09Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T19:30:21Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:30:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:30:23Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-05T19:30:52Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-05T19:32:22Z xificurC quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-05T19:34:29Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:37:32Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:39:53Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-05T19:41:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:44:03Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T19:45:04Z kalvano joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:45:34Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T19:46:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:48:03Z raazdaan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-05T19:48:03Z zeroish1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:48:11Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-05T19:48:29Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:55:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T19:56:00Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T19:56:27Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-05T19:56:56Z raazdaan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-05T23:28:38Z ajf-: has anyone here done serious mathematics with lisp e.g. n-th dimensional, vector gradients, etc. or do you go to something else like R or MATLAB ? 2015-10-05T23:28:48Z pillton: ajf-: I do. 2015-10-05T23:29:20Z pillton: I suggest you be a bit more specific than "serious". 2015-10-05T23:30:13Z ajf-: well, my actual case right now is modelling a 12th dimensional space with points that follow gravity gradients 2015-10-05T23:30:26Z ajf-: and possibly some linear algebra 2015-10-05T23:31:23Z pillton: I use LAPACK bindings for my linear algebra. 2015-10-05T23:32:47Z pillton: It isn't open source at the moment. I have been using my library for about 5 years. I'm working the next version at the moment. I intend to release this new version. 2015-10-05T23:33:55Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-05T23:35:03Z pillton: The data I work with is either images or video. The problems I solve are non-linear or convex and I use a variety of different solvers. 2015-10-05T23:36:04Z ajf-: also seeking solvers 2015-10-05T23:36:31Z pillton: I implement my own. 2015-10-05T23:36:37Z pillton: These aren't released either. 2015-10-05T23:37:06Z Denommus` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-05T23:37:26Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:37:36Z ajf-: ah your own. 2015-10-05T23:37:48Z NhanH is now known as nhanH 2015-10-05T23:37:51Z ajf-: and for vectors? 2015-10-05T23:38:06Z nhanH is now known as NhanHo 2015-10-05T23:38:10Z NhanHo is now known as NhanH 2015-10-05T23:38:15Z NhanH is now known as NhanHo 2015-10-05T23:38:41Z pillton: The interface to lapack can be be done with a light wrapper around an array of type (simple-array * (*)). 2015-10-05T23:39:28Z NhanHo is now known as NhanH 2015-10-05T23:39:40Z pillton: If all you need is lapack then that is sufficient. 2015-10-05T23:40:07Z pillton: If you need first order methods which involve performing lots of matrix vector multiplications than the wrapper will become your bottleneck. 2015-10-05T23:40:28Z pillton: The next version of my library will overcome that issue. 2015-10-05T23:40:36Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-05T23:41:36Z pillton: The time consuming part with common lisp is writing code which does not cons. 2015-10-05T23:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: It would be nice if lQuery had a little lispy DSL for producing CSS selectors. 2015-10-05T23:44:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll put something together. 2015-10-05T23:47:49Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:48:02Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:48:18Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-05T23:50:44Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:50:57Z eazar001 is now known as hhh 2015-10-05T23:51:00Z hhh is now known as eazar001 2015-10-05T23:51:47Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-05T23:52:44Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-05T23:53:33Z eazar001 is now known as haha 2015-10-05T23:53:36Z haha is now known as eazar001 2015-10-05T23:54:38Z eazar001 is now known as haha 2015-10-05T23:54:40Z haha is now known as eazar001 2015-10-05T23:55:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs proclaim 2015-10-05T23:55:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm 2015-10-05T23:57:37Z EXID123 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-05T23:58:09Z EXID123 joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:59:14Z eazar001 is now known as h 2015-10-05T23:59:16Z h is now known as eazar00 2015-10-05T23:59:18Z eazar00 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-05T23:59:55Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-10-05T23:59:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T00:00:09Z eazar001 is now known as eazar00 2015-10-06T00:00:10Z eazar00 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:01:23Z eazar001 is now known as eazar00 2015-10-06T00:01:25Z eazar00 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:05:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:05:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:06:00Z agumonkey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T00:06:51Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:07:54Z eazar001 is now known as eazar00 2015-10-06T00:07:55Z eazar00 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:09:44Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T00:12:24Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T00:14:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:16:57Z eazar001 is now known as eeeeee0001 2015-10-06T00:17:01Z eeeeee0001 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:17:09Z eazar001 is now known as eeeeee0001 2015-10-06T00:17:11Z eeeeee0001 is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:18:03Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:18:42Z eazar001 is now known as eaza 2015-10-06T00:18:45Z eaza is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:18:47Z eazar001 is now known as eaza 2015-10-06T00:18:49Z eaza is now known as eazar001 2015-10-06T00:19:15Z ajf-: in opusmodus, there's a def-score function that works like this: (def-score (:property value ...) (instrument-name :instrument-property instrument value ...) ...) 2015-10-06T00:19:35Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:19:47Z ajf-: what is the type of those (instrument-name :instrument-property instrument value ...) lists that go in the body? you can use your own name and they also accept parameters 2015-10-06T00:19:54Z ajf-: like an immediately defined function? 2015-10-06T00:20:17Z ajf-: i wish to dynamically create a list of these, but I'm not sure what's that data type 2015-10-06T00:20:20Z Bike: it's probably an argument format peculiar to def-score. 2015-10-06T00:20:35Z Bike: i would look at def-score's documentation and see if there is a function version. 2015-10-06T00:21:25Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:25:32Z ajf-: I don't have that but if I put a bad value for the body I get "Odd length keyword list" 2015-10-06T00:25:40Z ajf-: maybe that says something about what it expects 2015-10-06T00:26:52Z Bike: well, it sounds a bit like a plist. 2015-10-06T00:29:44Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:39:25Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T00:43:15Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-06T00:49:55Z ajf-: hmm could I dynamically construct one ? say from i = 3, generate: (instrument-3 :property value) 2015-10-06T00:50:10Z ajf-: i've been looking into setf and get for working with plists but i'm not that clear there 2015-10-06T00:50:13Z ajf-: is it possible ? 2015-10-06T00:51:14Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T00:53:39Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T00:57:37Z Bike: they're just lists, yes. 2015-10-06T00:58:50Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:02:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:11:06Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T01:12:58Z snv: arrays are lists too, just with O(1) access 2015-10-06T01:14:07Z nyef: Umm... What? 2015-10-06T01:14:28Z Zhivago: If you're not conflating lists with linked lists, that's certainly true. 2015-10-06T01:14:41Z nyef: At least they aren't hash-tables, I guess. 2015-10-06T01:14:53Z nyef: (*cough*PHP*cough*) 2015-10-06T01:16:33Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:18:09Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:19:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:21:01Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:24:01Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T01:24:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T01:26:37Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:28:46Z AdolfHitlr joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:32:12Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T01:33:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:36:43Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:39:54Z sekrit joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:47:39Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-06T01:48:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:48:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T01:49:16Z doesthiswork: I have heard that there is an archive of emails sent during the design of common lisp. Does anyone know where I would find it? 2015-10-06T01:49:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:51:04Z EXID123_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:52:27Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:57:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-06T01:59:19Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:01:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T02:01:56Z sthalik joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:02:02Z sthalik: i'll just drop it here http://users-cs.au.dk/danvy/sfp12/papers/keep-hearn-dybvig-paper-sfp12.pdf 2015-10-06T02:03:49Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T02:07:50Z AdolfHitlr quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-06T02:07:59Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T02:09:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-06T02:10:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:12:58Z sthalik quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-06T02:15:26Z huza joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:15:35Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:16:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T02:16:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:18:02Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-06T02:19:29Z loke: sthalik: I just read most of the paper. I really don't see anything loval in it. 2015-10-06T02:19:31Z brunov0id quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T02:19:32Z loke: I mean novel 2015-10-06T02:19:42Z loke: SBCL seems to do all of these optimisations already. 2015-10-06T02:24:11Z sdothum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T02:25:44Z nyef: SBCL has some fun closure representation tricks not seen in that paper, but given that it's coming from a Scheme perspective, with their bias towards call/cc, that's understandable. 2015-10-06T02:26:45Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:26:49Z Zhivago: I thought they were replacing that with delimited continuations. 2015-10-06T02:27:23Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-06T02:28:36Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T02:29:10Z nyef: Even with that, can they play dynamic-extent games? 2015-10-06T02:29:21Z raazdaan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-06T02:34:13Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T02:38:07Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T02:41:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: How dissapointing for them. ", but most 2015-10-06T02:41:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: of the optimizations described here have not been described pre- 2015-10-06T02:41:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: viously in the literature, and many are likely novel" 2015-10-06T02:41:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bah, emacs newlines again. 2015-10-06T02:43:52Z papachan: hi Petit_Dejeuner 2015-10-06T02:44:25Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:45:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: papachan: ? 2015-10-06T02:45:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: hi 2015-10-06T02:48:57Z adh_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:49:04Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-10-06T02:49:21Z adh_: how many people became gay after having chosen to lisp? 2015-10-06T02:50:30Z Zhivago: Presumably 7-10% biased by the average age of lisp choosing against the average age of discovery of homosexuality. 2015-10-06T02:50:50Z Zhivago: But you shouldn't be ashamed of it -- many animals are homosexual, after all. 2015-10-06T02:51:08Z nyef applauds. 2015-10-06T02:51:13Z nyef: Zhivago: Well played, sir! 2015-10-06T02:52:01Z adh_: does homosexuality occur as an evolutionary advancement due to overpopulation? 2015-10-06T02:52:20Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-06T02:52:22Z adh_: because i'm more evolved i'm a lot smarter than my peers and i'm totally gay 2015-10-06T02:52:43Z nyef: And now we're off-topic. 2015-10-06T02:52:58Z adh_: this is lisp and lisp is how i talk 2015-10-06T02:54:13Z Zhivago: There is evidence that homosexuality correlates with increased intelligence and penis size. 2015-10-06T02:54:41Z adh_: well my penis is 6.6" long and 5.43" around 2015-10-06T02:54:46Z adh_: i don't know if that's big 2015-10-06T02:54:56Z adh_: i'm still a virgin 2015-10-06T02:55:16Z Zhivago: That's probably because you talk about yourself too much. 2015-10-06T02:55:17Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T02:55:24Z adh_: or because i'm 13 2015-10-06T02:57:40Z digiorgi: learn lisp and you will beat the average 2015-10-06T02:57:57Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-06T02:57:57Z adh_: well i know common lisp 2015-10-06T02:58:06Z adh_: i don't know if i should learn clojurer 2015-10-06T02:58:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: learn clojure and you will become the average 2015-10-06T02:58:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: /languagewar 2015-10-06T02:58:28Z adh_: lol 2015-10-06T02:58:38Z adh_: i also know ruby but i don't like how basic it is 2015-10-06T02:58:44Z adh_: it seems like ruby is the language for retards 2015-10-06T02:59:24Z ajf- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T03:01:59Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T03:04:34Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T03:05:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:07:59Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:09:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-06T03:09:58Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-06T03:10:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:11:17Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:11:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T03:12:37Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:17:27Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:18:45Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:23:30Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T03:24:22Z Fare: pillton: to avoid footing yourself in the shoot. 2015-10-06T03:26:07Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:26:30Z Fare: sthalik: they cite Cardelli 1983 for something that POP-2 did in the early 1960s, way before Lisp had lexical scope. 2015-10-06T03:26:55Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T03:27:00Z Fare: Petit_Dejeuner, the average has improved a bit in 20 years. Good news! 2015-10-06T03:28:39Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:32:11Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:32:32Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:32:38Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:32:53Z brunov0id quit 2015-10-06T03:34:06Z loke significantly prefer reading CL code than Clojure code. This includes code that I wrote myself. 2015-10-06T03:34:55Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:35:03Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-06T03:35:13Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-10-06T03:35:26Z loke: Hello beach! 2015-10-06T03:36:11Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-06T03:38:26Z jeaye: morning 2015-10-06T03:38:27Z snv: digiorgi, >implying PG haven't used "Blub" as an euphemism for Common Lisp 2015-10-06T03:39:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T03:40:41Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:41:13Z phoe6 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-06T03:41:39Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:42:24Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T03:42:53Z Uber-Ich joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:45:09Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-06T03:45:31Z housel joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:50:42Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-06T03:54:38Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:54:58Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:58:02Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-06T03:58:56Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:03:41Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-10-06T04:05:57Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:07:33Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:07:54Z findiggle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T04:07:57Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:08:13Z beach: drmeister: How are things in your world? 2015-10-06T04:08:38Z findiggle joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:08:45Z drmeister: Tracking down a problem between clasp and llvm 2015-10-06T04:08:50Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:08:58Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2015-10-06T04:09:15Z beach: drmeister: What has changed for such a problem to appear? 2015-10-06T04:09:39Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:09:45Z drmeister: I don't know - and it's only on my Linux system - and only since last week. 2015-10-06T04:10:17Z drmeister: I don't like to walk away from a bug - especially one that knocks out clasp on my development system on Linux. 2015-10-06T04:11:02Z drmeister: I've reinstalled llvm twice. I've been making large changes to the build system in the last week. Maybe I exposed a fragile system. 2015-10-06T04:11:59Z drmeister: Nyef doesn't see it and Shinmera doesn't see it. It's perplexing. 2015-10-06T04:12:05Z beach: That's very disconcerting. 2015-10-06T04:12:57Z c74d3a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T04:14:51Z drmeister: I've tracked it down to the constructor of a llvm::TargetLibraryInfo object. 2015-10-06T04:15:08Z drmeister: I've figured out how to link the llvm debugging libraries after I broke that this weekend. 2015-10-06T04:15:17Z drmeister: I'm going in. 2015-10-06T04:16:12Z c74d3a joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:16:33Z beach: I am actually very surprised to see how many problems like this that you have. I thought the world of C and C++ on Linux was completely mature and predictable. 2015-10-06T04:17:10Z drmeister: (snort) 2015-10-06T04:17:19Z jeaye: Aside from dependency hell, it's typically sane. 2015-10-06T04:17:20Z drmeister: It's built on things like fscanf 2015-10-06T04:17:36Z drmeister: It's a house of cards 2015-10-06T04:17:46Z Bike: well, they usually expect everything is also C/C++. 2015-10-06T04:20:24Z nyef: I wouldn't classify it as a house of cards, so much as a Heath Robinson device built not so much by committee as by a large number of people each of whom just wants one or two behaviors out of the mess. 2015-10-06T04:22:15Z findiggle: It's the kind of thing that is completely mature and predictable for a very lucky few, which makes the rest of us feel like there's something wrong with us when it doesn't work out that way. 2015-10-06T04:22:38Z beach: findiggle: I like that characterization. 2015-10-06T04:23:12Z keen___________3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T04:23:44Z beach: drmeister: I also seem to have detected a change in your attitude. A few months ago you wrote [this is from memory] "I live an breathe C++", but the other day I saw something like [also from memory] "I hate C/C++". Am I on the right track? 2015-10-06T04:23:45Z jeaye: It's the best you'll find though, as far as C and C++ support goes. 2015-10-06T04:24:43Z drmeister: beach: I'd like to spend less time debugging it. 2015-10-06T04:24:51Z keen___________3 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:25:01Z beach: That was an ambiguous answer. :) 2015-10-06T04:25:17Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:25:17Z nyef: beach: Both could be true, simultaneously. Consider the fate of the poor Lisp hacker who gets involved in SBCL, only to wind up hunting down bugs in the C runtime, or between the C runtime and the assembler generated by the compiler? 2015-10-06T04:25:42Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-10-06T04:25:49Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:27:00Z nyef: It gets dealt with, not because it is enjoyable, liked, or important for its own sake, but because it is the underpinning for something which IS enjoyed, liked, and considered to be important. 2015-10-06T04:27:35Z beach: Anyway, observing all these problems, I am now more convinced than ever about what I said a long time ago, namely that "SICL will not depend on any program written in any language other than Common Lisp". 2015-10-06T04:27:55Z beach: I guess, for the time being, it will depend on the OS, though. 2015-10-06T04:28:08Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:29:19Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:29:26Z nyef: Mmm. This goes back to my deep-seated dislike for external dependencies. 2015-10-06T04:29:34Z jeaye: I'm going down a similar path. 2015-10-06T04:29:48Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:29:54Z jeaye: Been writing C++ for 7 years, now wishing I could instead write lisp for a living. 2015-10-06T04:30:18Z jeaye: Fighting C++ to be more functional can only take one so far, even with modern C++. 2015-10-06T04:30:46Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:31:04Z Uber-Ich quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T04:31:28Z raazdaan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-06T04:32:00Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-06T04:32:27Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:32:40Z nyef: beach: To what degree does your generic-function dispatch mechanism require a compiler at load-time or run-time? 2015-10-06T04:32:54Z snv: jeaye, C# has everything Common Lisp has, besides macros. 2015-10-06T04:33:00Z beach: jeaye: I don't know what you are doing of course, but sometimes you can sneak in some Lisp stuff. Most employers don't know about the profound theoretical theorem about code/data equivalence, so you can pretend that your Lisp code is data to your C++ program. 2015-10-06T04:33:10Z snv: C# has even dynamic typing. 2015-10-06T04:33:16Z beach: nyef: It requires a compiler at run-time. 2015-10-06T04:33:20Z jeaye: That's everything I _don't_ want, snv. 2015-10-06T04:33:49Z beach: nyef: It generates a nested IF that tests variables against constant smallish integers. 2015-10-06T04:33:59Z beach: nyef: Than that thing is compiled. 2015-10-06T04:34:21Z nyef: That... could be a very specialized compiler, at least. 2015-10-06T04:34:22Z snv: jeaye, I guess you can make a Lisp wrapper on top CLR. 2015-10-06T04:34:59Z beach: snv: Does C# have multiple dispatch? If so, that's great! 2015-10-06T04:35:23Z beach: It would make the CLR very suitable as a Common Lisp backend. 2015-10-06T04:35:33Z jeaye: snv: As a C++ developer, I work primarily in systems-level development, focusing on safe, zero-cost abstractions. I rely heavily on strong, static typing and RAII. 2015-10-06T04:35:47Z jeaye: C# doesn't give me any of that, except 'safe' 2015-10-06T04:36:19Z jeaye: No existing lisp does. 2015-10-06T04:36:35Z jeaye: Not any I've seen, anyway. 2015-10-06T04:36:46Z snv: jeaye, I'm working on a Lisp-based language without garbage collection 2015-10-06T04:36:53Z jeaye: Me too. 2015-10-06T04:36:56Z jeaye: snv: Got a link? 2015-10-06T04:37:10Z snv: https://github.com/saniv/symta/blob/master/doc/symta-by-example.md 2015-10-06T04:37:16Z jeaye: snv: https://github.com/jeaye/jank 2015-10-06T04:38:09Z snv: it has most lisp features, besides TCO, but avoids using unpredictable GC 2015-10-06T04:38:50Z jeaye: The syntax is more haskelly than lispy. 2015-10-06T04:38:55Z snv: jeaye, interesting, but unicode symbols will scare off potential users 2015-10-06T04:39:02Z jeaye: snv: They're optional. 2015-10-06T04:39:13Z snv: jeaye, yet everything parses to SEXPs 2015-10-06T04:39:18Z jeaye: Either way, jank is designed to be used by me. 2015-10-06T04:39:30Z jeaye: To replace C++ in my work. 2015-10-06T04:39:48Z nyef would rather avoid unpredictable GC by avoiding the unpredictable bit than by avoiding the GC bit. 2015-10-06T04:40:19Z beach: snv: "manual" de-allocation is also unpredictable. 2015-10-06T04:40:44Z snv: jeaye, I doubt your project lead would be happy with individual programmers using their own tools 2015-10-06T04:41:14Z snv: beach, it deallocates on function return, so it is very predictable 2015-10-06T04:41:17Z native_killer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-06T04:41:48Z jeaye: snv: My hobby work, I mean. 2015-10-06T04:41:52Z beach: snv: I just meant that deallocation can take an unbounded amount of time. 2015-10-06T04:42:03Z snv: i.e. for video game you can have per frame data, which is just not returned to the callee 2015-10-06T04:42:05Z jeaye: Not the $dayjob. 2015-10-06T04:42:52Z snv: beach, my Symta doesn't deallocate, just don't return the unreferenced data. 2015-10-06T04:44:02Z snv: and lists are implemented as arrays to avoid jumping across memory and invoking page faults 2015-10-06T04:44:09Z beach: So now we are talking programs that don't deallocate, and presumably don't allocate either, or at least do not manipulate any complex data structures. Such programs are very far from the ones that are interesting to me and that [to get back on topic] Common Lisp is so good for. 2015-10-06T04:44:12Z gabriel_laddel: I got arbitary maxima asts rendering into latex 2015-10-06T04:45:12Z snv: beach, deallocation can be as fast as incrementing the stack pointer 2015-10-06T04:45:19Z snv: same for allocation 2015-10-06T04:45:24Z gabriel_laddel: Now I need to figure out how to use with-input-editing in CLIM + presentations to create Macsyma worksheets that allows you to view and arbitary expressions as LaTeX, lisp ASTs or macsyma syntax. 2015-10-06T04:46:53Z beach: snv: Congratulations to having solved one of the most complicated problems in computer science, and to having rendered the research of thousands of computer scientists useless. 2015-10-06T04:47:45Z Bike: beach, have you seen that regions memory management thing fare mentioned the other day? 2015-10-06T04:48:11Z beach: Bike: I don't think so. 2015-10-06T04:48:19Z snv: beach, most computer scientists waste time and tax money trying to prove some useless correctness. 2015-10-06T04:48:53Z snv: so they come with impractical stuff like http://adam.chlipala.net/papers/FscqSOSP15/ 2015-10-06T04:48:54Z Bike: hm, i guess it's older than i thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region-based_memory_management 2015-10-06T04:49:36Z beach: Bike: Thanks. 2015-10-06T04:49:53Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-06T04:49:57Z Bike: the particular paper i read was in terms of ML like usual and emphasized typing, but hey. 2015-10-06T04:50:21Z Bike: oh, that's all the tofte stuff cited there. 2015-10-06T04:50:30Z snv: the problem with regions is that you have to manually allocate them or hope that compiler can analyze your program and introduce them 2015-10-06T04:51:02Z Bike: we're all about sufficiently smart compilers, dog 2015-10-06T04:51:52Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-06T04:54:25Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T04:58:02Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:00:22Z Acheront` joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:00:53Z mac_ifie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:01:17Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:01:18Z pw_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T05:01:33Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T05:01:36Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:01:39Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:01:57Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:02:04Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:02:36Z doesthiswork quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:02:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:02:54Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:03:05Z mac_ified quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:03:31Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:03:40Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:04:00Z Acherontius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:04:00Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:04:30Z Fare: snv: region management was made practical by ML-Kit a decade or two ago, and is currently popular thanks to Rust. 2015-10-06T05:04:31Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:04:45Z mwehner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:04:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:05:27Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:05:28Z Fare: jeaye, you might be interested in Rust. It also does RAII. 2015-10-06T05:05:31Z mwehner joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:05:42Z jeaye: Fare: I've spent a good deal of time with Rust. 2015-10-06T05:05:51Z Fare: Also, the uiop:nest macro can make a lot of things look like RAII 2015-10-06T05:06:12Z jeaye: Was working on a game engine for a while in rust https://github.com/jeaye/q3 2015-10-06T05:06:18Z Fare: (nest (with-foo) (with-bar) (with-baz) (let ((quux ...))) 2015-10-06T05:07:25Z jeaye: Fare: I want immutable data structures, explicit atomic mutation (a la clojure), code-as-data macros, strong, static typing, and generics. 2015-10-06T05:07:38Z Fare: jeaye: nice 2015-10-06T05:07:44Z jeaye: With no GC, that is. 2015-10-06T05:07:46Z jeaye: Nothing I've seen gives me that combination. 2015-10-06T05:08:21Z jeaye: That's where jank comes in. 2015-10-06T05:08:24Z Fare: I'd like RAII with gradual typing, but I don't know if it can be done w/o any static strong typing. 2015-10-06T05:08:34Z Fare: what's jank? 2015-10-06T05:08:44Z jeaye: The language I'm developing https://github.com/jeaye/jank 2015-10-06T05:08:45Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:09:08Z jeaye: Which does just what I described above and compiles to C++14. 2015-10-06T05:09:09Z Fare: for modern macros, I recommend Racket style 2015-10-06T05:09:26Z kristof: Fare: Herb Sutter is meeting up with rust developers to talk about bounded regions and stuff like that 2015-10-06T05:09:27Z Fare: I want proper tail calls, too 2015-10-06T05:09:35Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:09:36Z Fare: what's bounded regions? 2015-10-06T05:09:40Z kristof: The lifetime stuff 2015-10-06T05:09:47Z kristof: this pointer only lasts for this region 2015-10-06T05:09:51Z loz joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:09:54Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:10:31Z jeaye: I don't see C++ getting a rust-like borrow checker any time soon. 2015-10-06T05:10:34Z Fare: Rust doesn't have that yet? 2015-10-06T05:11:02Z jeaye: Rust has a very meticulous borrow checker. 2015-10-06T05:11:22Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:11:56Z Zhivago: With bonus bugs. :) 2015-10-06T05:12:08Z jeaye: Yeah, it can be a real treat sometimes. 2015-10-06T05:12:21Z snv1: does jank employ type inference? 2015-10-06T05:12:26Z jeaye: But it's doing so insanely heavy lifting. 2015-10-06T05:12:48Z jeaye: snv1: Yes, absolutely. 2015-10-06T05:12:58Z snv1: algebraic types? 2015-10-06T05:13:03Z kristof: Fare: No, C++ doesn't have that yet. 2015-10-06T05:13:08Z jeaye: snv1: All of the Ɐ/auto bits are deduced. 2015-10-06T05:13:38Z jeaye: snv1: Not quite Haskell level; it mostly flows in one direction (if my terminology is correct). 2015-10-06T05:14:18Z kristof: Fare: I would like to see Rust adopt more powerful macros based on syntax objects that have methods 2015-10-06T05:14:23Z snv1: So that `integer` is optional in "(ƒ square (i integer) (Ɐ) (* i i))"? 2015-10-06T05:14:48Z jeaye: snv1: That could be Ɐ which would make the function generic. 2015-10-06T05:15:14Z snv1: verbose 2015-10-06T05:15:24Z jeaye is ok with it. 2015-10-06T05:16:12Z jeaye: Especially when compared to C++, the generics are significantly more powerful and still relatively terse. 2015-10-06T05:17:59Z jeaye: snv1: Nearly all statically typed languages will require a similar amount of description, if not more. 2015-10-06T05:18:09Z snv1: jeaye, if you plan to market it to wider auditory, excessive symbols would scary off people. 2015-10-06T05:18:23Z jeaye: Fortunately, that's not my plan at all. 2015-10-06T05:18:28Z snv1: jeaye, haskell and ML dont 2015-10-06T05:18:48Z snv1: that is their major marketing point 2015-10-06T05:18:57Z jeaye: Haskell type descriptions are not typically required, but, as far as I know, good practice. 2015-10-06T05:19:08Z jeaye: When supplied, they're more verbose than jank. 2015-10-06T05:19:44Z jeaye: snv1: As far as jank goes, my standpoint is: designing a language to please others is a nightmare. 2015-10-06T05:19:53Z snv1: jeaye, good practice for students of the language, but nobody uses them in practice 2015-10-06T05:20:26Z jeaye: I know what I want jank to do, effectively blend immutability aspects of Clojure and modern C++. 2015-10-06T05:20:54Z jeaye: If others want on that train, I welcome them. However, I'm not aiming to achieve widespread adoption. 2015-10-06T05:21:07Z gabriel_laddel: "I know what I want jank to do, effectively blend immutability aspects of Clojure and modern C++." 2015-10-06T05:21:08Z gabriel_laddel: D: 2015-10-06T05:21:12Z gabriel_laddel: what the fucking fuck 2015-10-06T05:21:54Z jeaye: Read the description of the language and tell me what you consider to be "D:" worthy. 2015-10-06T05:23:02Z gabriel_laddel: jeaye: yeah, it is 2015-10-06T05:23:12Z jeaye: The readme is mostly up to date, save for a couple of syntax tweaks with generics. 2015-10-06T05:23:16Z gabriel_laddel: the notion that the problems of modern computing can be solved with "languages" 2015-10-06T05:23:17Z gabriel_laddel: sigh 2015-10-06T05:23:44Z snv1: gabriel_laddel, it can, but no these kinds of languages. 2015-10-06T05:24:26Z gabriel_laddel: snv1: it seems to me that these problems arise from the opaqueness of hardware. How a langauge solves that, idk. 2015-10-06T05:24:45Z jeaye: gabriel_laddel: Did you read somewhere that I'm aiming to solve "problems of modern computing"? 2015-10-06T05:25:05Z snv1: gabriel_laddel, modern problems are more of parallel computation and languages supporting it. 2015-10-06T05:25:19Z Zhivago: The main problem of modern computing is cheap and abundand memory. 2015-10-06T05:25:34Z Zhivago: That didn't affect older computing at all. 2015-10-06T05:25:39Z gabriel_laddel: jeaye: no? But I don't need to, by basic deduction. 2015-10-06T05:25:41Z nyef: The main problems of modern computing are the programmers and the users. 2015-10-06T05:25:46Z gabriel_laddel: lol 2015-10-06T05:25:58Z Zhivago: Older computing also had programmers and users, so I don't think that's true. 2015-10-06T05:26:04Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T05:26:10Z jeaye: gabriel_laddel: I'm aiming to achieve more functional programming in a lisp-inspired statically typed language which compiles to C++. The main benefit is thread safety, the main drawback will likely be data locality issues due to the immutable data structures. 2015-10-06T05:26:11Z snv1: maybe some very high-level prolog-like language employing neural networks to answer questions. 2015-10-06T05:26:21Z jeaye: gabriel_laddel: Which part of that is "D:" worthy? 2015-10-06T05:26:55Z nyef: Zhivago: Modern programmers and users are foul, corrupt degenerates, possessing little of the virtue of their forebears, obviously. d-: 2015-10-06T05:27:25Z jeaye: Furthermore, this is very explicitly design to suit my needs and I've said that I'm not targeting any widespread audience. 2015-10-06T05:28:17Z Zhivago: Do you get thread safety by using processes instead? 2015-10-06T05:28:18Z snv1: domain specific languages are the bread and butter of lisp 2015-10-06T05:28:22Z gabriel_laddel: jeaye: the whole thing. 2015-10-06T05:28:39Z jeaye: gabriel_laddel: haha, ok. 2015-10-06T05:28:48Z nyef: snv1: I think you misspelled "bread and circuses". 2015-10-06T05:29:40Z jeaye: Zhivago: The lack of data races is achieved through immutable data structures and explicit, atomic mutation of bindings. 2015-10-06T05:30:03Z jeaye: As I said, a key drawback being the introduction of (more) data locality issues. 2015-10-06T05:30:15Z jeaye: And, worse, the loss of control around them. 2015-10-06T05:30:20Z gabriel_laddel: jeaye: use a quality program, like Andy Hefner's CLIM listener with maxima loaded into it and you'll understand where I'm coming from. 2015-10-06T05:30:23Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:30:29Z Zhivago: I'd recommend using processes instead -- then distribution is easier. 2015-10-06T05:30:31Z kalvano quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-06T05:30:37Z Zhivago: The real problem of threads is shared memory, which doesn't scale. 2015-10-06T05:31:07Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:31:36Z nyef: (Okay, it's 1:30 ante-meridian. I'm "under the weather", as it's called, awake far too late, my impulse control is shot and my sense of humour has taken a turn for the snarkier-than-usual. Clearly, time for me to try and get some sleep.) 2015-10-06T05:31:55Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: were you a part of the "CLIM desktop" project at any point? 2015-10-06T05:32:04Z nyef: ... And I'm forgetting the Oxford comma. No good can come of this. 2015-10-06T05:32:14Z jeaye: Using processes instead of threads may be more suitable on some platforms and less suitable on others. 2015-10-06T05:32:19Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: I forget. 2015-10-06T05:32:49Z beach: I think we should get back to on-topic stuff to avoid angering nyef and other people. 2015-10-06T05:33:16Z jeaye withdraws. 2015-10-06T05:33:17Z nyef is too tired to be angry. 2015-10-06T05:33:55Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:33:58Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-06T05:34:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:34:25Z kalvano joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:35:37Z gabriel_laddel: beach: if you could convince gilberth to allow his online CLIM spec to be added to the repo, I wrote a program that downloads it. This would allow the closing of https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/issues/10 and tex could be ditched. 2015-10-06T05:35:55Z gabriel_laddel: I asked, but he wasn't happy with the idea. 2015-10-06T05:36:05Z gabriel_laddel: Any peer pressure would be appreciated. 2015-10-06T05:36:37Z Zhivago: Arrange for RMS to stay at his house for a week. 2015-10-06T05:36:43Z beach: I suppose you don't mean the HTML but the code that generates the HTML from the TeX source? 2015-10-06T05:36:59Z gabriel_laddel: beach: no, I mean the HTML 2015-10-06T05:37:28Z beach: Oh, so you just mean that he is opposed to including it in the repository? What was the reason? 2015-10-06T05:37:44Z gabriel_laddel: he doesn't want it mirrored everywhere 2015-10-06T05:38:07Z Acheront` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T05:38:18Z Acheront` joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:38:20Z beach: OK, I'll see what I can do. 2015-10-06T05:38:22Z gabriel_laddel: yay 2015-10-06T05:39:10Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:39:37Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-06T05:40:01Z gabriel_laddel: the main problem with reading the spec online is that his website is sllooooow. 2015-10-06T05:40:38Z beach: It is also not good to rely on his website always being around. 2015-10-06T05:41:25Z beach: Duplicating it is tricky too though because a way to synchronize the annotations would be necessary. 2015-10-06T05:41:30Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-06T05:41:49Z gabriel_laddel: I don't think that matters tbh 2015-10-06T05:42:03Z gabriel_laddel: if there are enough people hacking on McCLIM to have that problem, we're in a good place 2015-10-06T05:42:25Z gabriel_laddel: one of the main issues I had when getting started with it is that the documentation was spread out all over the place 2015-10-06T05:42:26Z beach: By the way, I met Andy Hefner for the first time at ELS in London. 2015-10-06T05:42:40Z bitwiggler quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:42:48Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-06T05:42:54Z gabriel_laddel: and many useful people don't have a schedule that allows them to spend hours on end browsing the internet for CLIM docts 2015-10-06T05:42:58Z gabriel_laddel: beach: oh, cool 2015-10-06T05:43:01Z gabriel_laddel: beach: fun guy? 2015-10-06T05:43:17Z beach: Most lispers are. :) 2015-10-06T05:43:29Z bitwiggler joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:45:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T05:46:08Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-06T05:47:47Z mac_ifie_ quit 2015-10-06T05:52:17Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:54:09Z gabriel_laddel: Is anyone here really good with Google's tesseract? 2015-10-06T05:55:33Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:56:08Z jackdaniel: ocr? 2015-10-06T05:56:58Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T05:57:11Z beach: gabriel_laddel: The CLIM II spec is in the repository though. I assume you know that, right? 2015-10-06T05:58:25Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yeah 2015-10-06T05:58:49Z gabriel_laddel: it isn't in a usable form though 2015-10-06T05:58:54Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-06T05:59:12Z beach: It can be compiled to PDF. Not good enough? 2015-10-06T05:59:32Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I could never get that working, and have you ever tried to search a pdf? 2015-10-06T05:59:55Z beach: I know that you can't search the PDF, but generating a PDF should work. 2015-10-06T06:02:17Z gabriel_laddel: Ideally I'd like to have CLIM be "self-hosting" by translating one of the specs into a CLIM application - doing this from tex is.... not fun. With the web spec I'd (html-parse:parse-html each-page) and strip all the HTMLisms from it, transform the remaining trees to fit my model of the world and render them along with some indexing / search functionality. 2015-10-06T06:02:30Z gabriel_laddel: anyways, I'm not the only person who has been unable to build the docs 2015-10-06T06:02:53Z beach: I'll take a look at it. 2015-10-06T06:04:24Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I just did pdflatex clim.tex twice, and it worked. 2015-10-06T06:04:24Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:05:17Z beach: Oh, no index was generated, though. 2015-10-06T06:05:40Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: CLSS uses a 'lispy' representation internally. See CLSS:PARSE-SELECTOR. I don't think lQuery allows using them in a $ expression though. 2015-10-06T06:05:45Z beach: gabriel_laddel: But there are appropriate links in the table of contents. 2015-10-06T06:05:57Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-06T06:06:05Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:06:29Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:06:55Z beach: Anyway, time to get to work! 2015-10-06T06:06:58Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-06T06:07:26Z gabriel_laddel: Does anyone here know Larry Malone? 2015-10-06T06:07:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:08:49Z preacher-aka-nd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:09:03Z preacherAKAnd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T06:09:29Z gabriel_laddel: beach: kk 2015-10-06T06:09:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:09:52Z ralt: jackdaniel Fare: w.r.t. asdf-devel's thread, aren't .a just an ar archive of .o files? 2015-10-06T06:11:06Z ralt: (if so, ar archives are easy to generate manually) 2015-10-06T06:11:08Z jackdaniel: ralt: it is (of multiple .o files) 2015-10-06T06:11:16Z jackdaniel: you have tu run ranlib on it additionally 2015-10-06T06:11:25Z jackdaniel: but basically yes 2015-10-06T06:11:30Z ralt: what does it do? 2015-10-06T06:11:51Z ralt: I'm not sure I get the problem in the thread then 2015-10-06T06:11:58Z jackdaniel: it makes it work ^_^ not sure what exactly, you have to do (ranlib (ar object*)) 2015-10-06T06:12:14Z jackdaniel: hm, you can't ar object files with another archive 2015-10-06T06:13:06Z ralt: ? 2015-10-06T06:13:11Z jackdaniel: you can, but with libtool - generally everything works, we just discuss current approach 2015-10-06T06:13:14Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:13:21Z jackdaniel: hmm, imagine you have built a static library hunchentoot.a 2015-10-06T06:13:45Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:13:45Z jackdaniel: and you want to build your brand new code with this static library - so your code is compiled to .o files and accesses functions in hunchentoot.a 2015-10-06T06:14:06Z jackdaniel: but to make it monolithic, you have to unpack all objects from hunchentoot.a and repack them with all your .o files 2015-10-06T06:14:24Z jackdaniel: because `ar file.o hunchentoot.a` will fail miserably 2015-10-06T06:14:32Z jackdaniel: libtool can do that 2015-10-06T06:14:36Z ralt: ah? 2015-10-06T06:14:49Z jackdaniel: "ah?" ? ;p 2015-10-06T06:14:53Z ralt: I thought it was relatively easy to add new files? 2015-10-06T06:15:14Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T06:15:27Z ralt: this is where the bug is? 2015-10-06T06:15:30Z jackdaniel: to existing archive? maybe, I don't know any good methods for this though 2015-10-06T06:15:54Z jackdaniel: yeah and you won't see it if you just compile lisp code to monolithic executable/library, it's just when you combine your code with prebuilt libraries 2015-10-06T06:15:59Z ralt: I wrote an ar writer in Lisp, the format is really simple 2015-10-06T06:17:08Z jackdaniel: ralt: could you post link for it in a mailing list? native ar would be a good thing to have if it works all OK - we could add to it option to add objects to existing archive and we won't have to pull libtool dependency at runtime 2015-10-06T06:17:34Z ralt: it's not really production ready, but sure 2015-10-06T06:17:52Z jackdaniel: so it will be a proof of concept for now ;) 2015-10-06T06:18:07Z jackdaniel: thanks. I have to go now - see you \o 2015-10-06T06:18:18Z ralt: cya 2015-10-06T06:21:52Z keen___________4 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:23:03Z keen___________3 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:27:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:28:13Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:28:31Z Fare: sure, we could reimplement libtool in lisp 2015-10-06T06:28:42Z Fare: is it a good idea? maybe, maybe not. 2015-10-06T06:29:23Z adh_ quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-06T06:29:26Z Fare: to merge libraries, you may have to rename files — or can an archive have several different files with the same name? 2015-10-06T06:29:35Z Fare: so it's a lot of work for dubious results 2015-10-06T06:29:57Z Fare: I think a combined .o file is simpler and better. 2015-10-06T06:30:41Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:31:47Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:33:12Z ralt: Fare: I'm talking about less than 100 lines of Lisp there, not "reimplementing libtool" 2015-10-06T06:33:42Z Fare: a .a file is only useful if you're going to skip some of the object files, anyway --- which is not at all relevant for this use case. 2015-10-06T06:33:53Z Fare: ralt: what about same-named files? 2015-10-06T06:34:01Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:34:33Z ralt: Fare: never thought about that. I imagine it has a fairly simple solution though. 2015-10-06T06:34:57Z Fare: I can imagine many solutions, all of them tedious 2015-10-06T06:35:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:35:29Z Fare: especially to deal with name clashes while renaming / numbering things 2015-10-06T06:35:44Z Fare: plus dealing with filename size limits 2015-10-06T06:35:51Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:35:52Z jonh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:36:05Z jackdaniel: Fare: monolithic builds by defaults does just that - combine .o files. Issue with static libraries is revelant only when combining with already built libraries 2015-10-06T06:36:40Z Fare: jackdaniel: for the CL use case, always combining seems like the way to go 2015-10-06T06:36:57Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:37:05Z jackdaniel: and that's what we do for CL use case 2015-10-06T06:37:12Z Fare: either that, or always keeping all objects separate... and being willing to deal with indirect linker scripts when the list of files gets huge. 2015-10-06T06:38:22Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:38:33Z xristos is now known as Guest81941 2015-10-06T06:38:34Z jonh joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:39:16Z Fare: bazel does the linker script thing, but then it isn't portable, and it has to deal with arbitrary cases, not just need system hierarchies. 2015-10-06T06:39:20Z Fare: neat 2015-10-06T06:39:39Z jackdaniel: but we also have use-cases when we want to combine CL compiled output with some C/C++ code and the most straightforward solutio (for C programmer) is having static library with CL system and exported functions 2015-10-06T06:40:24Z Fare: how is that better than a big .o for the CL system? 2015-10-06T06:40:51Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:40:57Z jackdaniel: each CL system is a single .o file, but we have dependancies 2015-10-06T06:41:02Z Fare: although, I dunno if windows has the equivalent of ld -r — but at least it can trivially combine .lib files together 2015-10-06T06:41:03Z jackdaniel: like alexandria for instance 2015-10-06T06:41:19Z Fare: well, each system has its .o file — what's the problem with that? 2015-10-06T06:41:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:41:32Z jackdaniel: nothing, :monolithic t is optional 2015-10-06T06:41:36Z Fare: hence lib-op vs monolithic-lib-op 2015-10-06T06:41:54Z jackdaniel: I see both solutions perfectly fine 2015-10-06T06:42:45Z Fare: I'd rather not make libtool a dependency of static-image-op 2015-10-06T06:43:22Z jackdaniel: libtool will be dependency only when combining .a files with .o files (if at all) 2015-10-06T06:43:39Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:44:19Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:45:47Z Fare: still too much of a dependency 2015-10-06T06:46:31Z Fare: the system where you can assume libtool, gnu/linux, has ar rcsDT where the T flag merges archives. 2015-10-06T06:46:44Z Fare: other systems, meh 2015-10-06T06:47:22Z jackdaniel: libtool is portable while this flag isn't. and this new dependency only affects broken use-case, so a) it fixes bug, b) doesn't impose anything on other modules 2015-10-06T06:47:57Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:47:58Z Fare: currently, monolithic-lib-op and image-op depend on this 2015-10-06T06:48:23Z Fare: gtg 2015-10-06T06:49:07Z jackdaniel: depends on what? on these flags? then why it fails when combining .o and .a? 2015-10-06T06:49:13Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T06:49:14Z jackdaniel is confused a bit 2015-10-06T06:50:16Z jackdaniel: and how it works on BSD then 2015-10-06T06:50:56Z ralt: jackdaniel when you say "compile a CL system in a .o file", does that mean the CL functions become available in the C world with a simple -l? 2015-10-06T06:51:36Z jackdaniel: ralt: there is some calling convention, but yes you can call lisp functions from C code directly 2015-10-06T06:52:16Z ralt: Is the toolchain complicated to setup? 2015-10-06T06:52:17Z jackdaniel: and vice versa in a matter of fact, but cffi makes it more portably 2015-10-06T06:52:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:52:50Z jackdaniel: ralt: not at all, consult examples/embed directory in ECL repository 2015-10-06T06:53:01Z jackdaniel: use git head for this (we had some regression on the last release) 2015-10-06T06:53:04Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:53:09Z ralt: ah, it's ecl only? 2015-10-06T06:53:14Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-10-06T06:53:19Z ralt: ok 2015-10-06T06:53:36Z jackdaniel: sorry to disappoint you ;-) 2015-10-06T06:53:41Z ralt: I thought it was a general fasl -> C kind of thing 2015-10-06T06:53:45Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:54:00Z ralt: well, I already knew it was possible with ECL 2015-10-06T06:54:24Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:54:48Z jackdaniel: other implementations may have mechanisms for calling from C too, just don't know about them 2015-10-06T06:54:55Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:55:10Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:55:24Z ralt: well a general tool based on fasl sounds like a better idea. Fasl is standardized isn't it? 2015-10-06T06:56:03Z jackdaniel: it isn't 2015-10-06T06:56:14Z ralt: oh. 2015-10-06T06:56:34Z ralt: what a shame :( 2015-10-06T06:56:53Z Shinmera: FASLs are so non-standard that usually they won't even work between versions of the same implementation. 2015-10-06T06:56:57Z jackdaniel: I can imagine a bridge though - ECL connected with the other implementation by swank and acting as Lisp - C bridge 2015-10-06T06:57:33Z jackdaniel: or just a swank client in C, without ECL :_) 2015-10-06T06:57:54Z Shinmera: And FASLs being non-standard is a Good Thing™. It gives the implementation much more control to pick a format that is most suitable for its intended target. 2015-10-06T06:58:02Z preacher-aka-nd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T06:58:40Z jackdaniel: ↑ 2015-10-06T06:58:43Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T06:58:48Z Shinmera: After all, they're FASLs, not PORLs. 2015-10-06T06:59:09Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-06T06:59:28Z Shinmera: Portable loading is already there: It's your source code. 2015-10-06T07:00:24Z ralt: I guess so... 2015-10-06T07:01:20Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:01:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:05:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T07:09:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T07:10:26Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T07:13:05Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:18:58Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:21:35Z p_l: jackdaniel: libtool is... doubleplusungood 2015-10-06T07:22:11Z pw_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:25:05Z jackdaniel: p_l: it solves some real problem. If I'll find something better then I have no objections to use it 2015-10-06T07:25:41Z p_l: "solved" is more like it, and I'm not sure if the cure isn't worse than the disease 2015-10-06T07:25:55Z Shinmera: p_l: What's so awful about it? 2015-10-06T07:25:59Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:26:20Z sg|polyneikes quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T07:26:41Z jackdaniel: and saying it's a bash script doesn't count ;-) 2015-10-06T07:26:43Z p_l: Shinmera: it's too bloody complex for the job 2015-10-06T07:26:54Z p_l: also, .la files 2015-10-06T07:27:07Z Shinmera: p_l: Ah. Well I figured as much from ralt saying that his thing is maybe a 100 lines of CL. 2015-10-06T07:27:43Z p_l: Shinmera: doing the task of libtool on a bunch of platforms is maybe one CPP macro and one linker flag 2015-10-06T07:28:05Z Shinmera: Heh 2015-10-06T07:28:45Z p_l: the CPP macro would cover visibility attributes and differences between their form on a bunch of compilers/platforms 2015-10-06T07:29:26Z p_l: for GCC cc/ld, making dynamic library (i.e. why libtool exists) is to add -dynamic (some more linker flags might apply depending on your need, but then you *need* them) 2015-10-06T07:29:40Z Bike: #define MYNAME_API_EXPORT makes me sad 2015-10-06T07:29:55Z p_l: sometimes, some of the features you might enable should be more of a warning sign rather than "oh, cool, let's use this" 2015-10-06T07:29:58Z Bike: libtool is sadder, of course 2015-10-06T07:30:32Z p_l: well, EXPORT(symbol) would be good enough :P 2015-10-06T07:32:15Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:36:07Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T07:36:56Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:37:22Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:37:50Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:45:06Z daimrod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T07:45:53Z papachan_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-06T07:49:35Z daimrod joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:50:18Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-06T07:51:14Z ralt: Shinmera, creating an AR archive is 100 lines of CL. 2015-10-06T07:51:26Z ralt: (less than that, even.) 2015-10-06T07:52:55Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:52:57Z p_l: an ar archive is essentially archive header, then file headers, and optionally on some systems an index, iirc 2015-10-06T07:53:09Z ralt: https://github.com/ralt/deb-packager/blob/master/src/ar.lisp 2015-10-06T07:53:16Z sg|polyneikes quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T07:53:26Z jackdaniel: libtool covers number of cases, that's why it's complex (and it's in *yuck* bash) - but many systems are complex (because they solve problems which are complicated) - do you have less complex alternative? 2015-10-06T07:53:52Z snv1: ralt, 100 lines of CL is enough to create a prolog compiler. I.e. it is a lot. 2015-10-06T07:54:03Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:54:20Z p_l: jackdaniel: libtool might have been more needed... in 1995 2015-10-06T07:55:11Z lieven: 100 lines of CL creates something prolog like. A prolog compiler with WAM, optimisation etc is something quite different from a little toy matcher and backtracker. 2015-10-06T07:55:43Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-06T07:55:50Z jackdaniel: p_l: I'm asking about alternative not a tool criticism - I'm not attached to it neither have anything against, you don't have to convince me that I want something else. Just show me that something *else* 2015-10-06T07:55:56Z snv1: lieven, implying AR creator needs heavy optimizations. 2015-10-06T07:56:25Z lieven: no. implying that this often quoted "we can do in 100 lines" is often misleading 2015-10-06T07:57:56Z Shinmera: snv1: 100 lines is peanuts in comparison to what ECL has. I.e. it is not a lot at all. 2015-10-06T07:58:03Z snv1: lieven, code utility raises exponentially with the number of lines. 2015-10-06T07:58:37Z p_l: jackdaniel: what exactly do you need to realize - a linkable static/dynamic library? 2015-10-06T07:58:38Z lieven: bullshit. most lines of code are taken with making stuff more robust. handling weird errors and edge cases. 2015-10-06T07:59:30Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-06T07:59:39Z snv1: lieven, what you can express in a limited number of lines. 2015-10-06T07:59:46Z jackdaniel: p_l: I want to archive a few archives and object files into a single archive. Yes, I can enlist each archive, save order of the objects (order is important), extract objects and repack all - but it's just reimplementing what libtool does in that case 2015-10-06T07:59:47Z Shinmera: Not to mention that less lines is not exactly better due to readability, etc. 2015-10-06T08:00:20Z p_l: jackdaniel: why is order important? 2015-10-06T08:00:57Z jackdaniel: p_l: because symbols might repeat, so it's important that top module is earlier then submodules to call the correct function 2015-10-06T08:01:20Z snv1: Shinmera, how many bytes are required to express strong AI? 2015-10-06T08:01:32Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:01:44Z Shinmera: Are you just here to bait people or do you have something of value to say? 2015-10-06T08:02:31Z snv1: Shinmera, I'm saying that 100 lines is a lot. Especially when complex ideas are involved. 2015-10-06T08:02:44Z Shinmera: And I'm saying it's not because it depends on the task. 2015-10-06T08:03:17Z Shinmera: How much is a lot depends on the respective goals and resources. It's not a fixed number. 2015-10-06T08:03:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:03:38Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:04:26Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:05:08Z ralt: snv1, in this case, 100 lines is not a lot. The logic itself isn't complex. 2015-10-06T08:05:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:06:10Z mea-culpa quit 2015-10-06T08:06:10Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:06:32Z snv1: ralt, Maxwell Equations take few lines, yet are very complex. 2015-10-06T08:06:32Z jackdaniel: p_l: calls between modules use randomized names which are unique, but entrypoint for C programmer has name which may repeat (it's just a wrapper for random-named function). Also, when we load library directly from ECL then we look for embedded tag which indicates library entry point. This tag is fixed, so top module has to be above submodules. 2015-10-06T08:06:33Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:06:54Z zacharias quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T08:07:01Z ralt: snv1, yes, that's why I'm saying the logic isn't complex there. 2015-10-06T08:07:07Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:07:49Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:08:23Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-06T08:10:06Z H4ns: //paret 2015-10-06T08:10:13Z H4ns left #lisp 2015-10-06T08:14:50Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:16:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:18:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:22:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T08:24:04Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:24:49Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Also embedded tags do repeat 2015-10-06T08:35:19Z jackdaniel: and they always have the same name 2015-10-06T08:35:46Z jackdaniel: non-GNU ar/ld might be enoucntered on OSX and some BSD I believe 2015-10-06T08:37:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:39:03Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T08:39:14Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:40:53Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-06T08:43:30Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T08:43:33Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:43:43Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:44:01Z p_l: well, so long as you expect to run on *current* versions, POSIX ar should be enough for everything from linux to z/OS 2015-10-06T08:44:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:44:19Z p_l: with the one exception being windows Win32 subsystem 2015-10-06T08:45:03Z p_l: my question regarding symbols was due to the fact that most ar implementations create indexes these days 2015-10-06T08:46:13Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that tools present on these systems are enough to do the job - libtool piggybacks on the working system - I'm asking how to combine .o and .a files without reching right pocket with a left hand 2015-10-06T08:46:25Z jackdaniel: reaching 2015-10-06T08:47:42Z p_l: jackdaniel: `ar -r -a TOP_FILE ARCHIVE_FILE OBJECT_FILE` 2015-10-06T08:48:06Z p_l: adds OBJECT_FILE into ARCHIVE_FILE *after* TOP_FILE 2015-10-06T08:48:06Z jackdaniel: p_l: it's appending to existing static archive 2015-10-06T08:48:15Z p_l: jackdaniel: or creating a new one 2015-10-06T08:48:27Z jackdaniel: what about ${command} file1.a file2.a file3.o file4.o 2015-10-06T08:48:41Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:48:42Z jackdaniel: into - final.a 2015-10-06T08:50:32Z p_l: pretty much the same except if you want to be portable you need to unpack all but one of the archives first 2015-10-06T08:50:38Z p_l: still might be easier to get running than libtool 2015-10-06T08:51:34Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T08:52:25Z jackdaniel: I'd say I have to unpack all the archives (preserving objects order) and archive them again with one object on the top (a new one which initializes the library) - it's not that hard I agree, but with libtool it's just one line 2015-10-06T08:52:47Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-06T08:54:37Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:57:23Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:57:35Z jackdaniel: (safe-run-program "libtool" (list* "-static" "-o" lib (mapcar #'brief-namestring object-files))) 2015-10-06T08:58:24Z jackdaniel: where object-files might be of any type (either .o or .a) 2015-10-06T08:59:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-06T08:59:39Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:00:32Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T09:01:31Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:01:36Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:04:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:07:48Z pjb: snv1: arrays are not lists, they are sequences. Read CLHS! 2015-10-06T09:08:17Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:08:32Z snv1: pjb, CLHS say nothing about how lists are implemented 2015-10-06T09:09:15Z snv1: I.e. implementation can use CDR-coding, which effectively implements lists through arrays. 2015-10-06T09:09:33Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:11:10Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:13:07Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:13:16Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:13:36Z pjb: LOL: I am actually very surprised to see how many problems like this that you have. I thought the world of C and C++ on Linux was completely mature and predictable. 2015-10-06T09:14:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:15:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:20:58Z pjb: snv1: nonetheless, you should read CLHS, and if you speak here, you should adopt the CLHS jargon. And sorry, You let me make a mistake, arrays are not sequence either. vectors are arrays. vectors are sequences. lists are sequences. strings are vectors. 2015-10-06T09:21:53Z mprelude quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-06T09:22:42Z pjb: snv1: notice that you didn't invent anything re. memory management: Pascal already had mark/release since the 60s. 2015-10-06T09:23:01Z pjb: snv1: in any case, you can take as a rule that anything in CS has been invented in the 60s. 2015-10-06T09:25:59Z loke: pjb: red-black trees were invented in 1972 :-) 2015-10-06T09:26:32Z pjb: A trivial derivation of balanced trees ;-) 2015-10-06T09:27:12Z pjb: In any case, it's fuzzy logic, and 1972 belongs to the 60s (more than eg. 1984). 2015-10-06T09:28:29Z pjb: Zhivago: older computing had users, but they were far, very far from the computers. And programmers too, only touched the computers thru pencil, forms, punched cards and paper listing. 2015-10-06T09:28:38Z loke: pjb: Ok, radix sort. Seems to be from the 80's. 2015-10-06T09:28:48Z munge joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:28:56Z loke: (wasn't really viable until memory bace cheap, I guess) 2015-10-06T09:29:01Z loke: became 2015-10-06T09:29:16Z pjb: It would be interesting to make a list… 2015-10-06T09:30:07Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:30:11Z loke: pjb: Timeline of algorithms and CS technologies. 2015-10-06T09:30:20Z ralt: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/432922/significant-new-inventions-in-computing-since-1980 2015-10-06T09:30:42Z loke: Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_algorithms 2015-10-06T09:31:29Z loke: AKS primality test is from 2002!? 2015-10-06T09:31:59Z snv1: pjb, when I said "array", I meant continuous chunk of RAM bytes. 2015-10-06T09:32:36Z pjb: snv1: here, array means array. Say continuous chunk of RAM bytes if you mean continuous chunk of RAM bytes. 2015-10-06T09:32:36Z loke: Hmm, and according to my own link, radix sort is from 1954 2015-10-06T09:32:39Z loke: damn it :-) 2015-10-06T09:33:11Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:33:24Z snv1: pjb, that is autistic 2015-10-06T09:33:41Z Shinmera: You sure are a charmer. 2015-10-06T09:33:41Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-06T09:34:00Z ralt: snv1, not really. We're talking about Lisp, not C. 2015-10-06T09:34:04Z loke: snv1: I thought this was #lisp. I wouldn't expect anything less. 2015-10-06T09:34:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T09:34:26Z pjb: snv1: and nothing in CLHS says that arrays must be continous chunks of RAM bytes. 2015-10-06T09:34:31Z snv1: loke, I havent mentioned C 2015-10-06T09:34:41Z loke: snv1: Neither did I. 2015-10-06T09:35:04Z snv1: loke, sorry, meant ralt 2015-10-06T09:35:12Z ralt: snv1, I did. It's only in C that arrays are continous chunks of RAM bytes. 2015-10-06T09:35:50Z snv1: ralt, assembly? 2015-10-06T09:36:05Z remi`bd: C++? 2015-10-06T09:36:13Z pw_` joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:36:13Z remi`bd: Pascal? Ada? 2015-10-06T09:36:37Z ralt: I don't know pascal at all, can't say 2015-10-06T09:36:51Z ralt: I thought ada's arrays were more abstracted though? 2015-10-06T09:36:57Z snv1: Most CL implementations have ways to allocate memory as array of bytes 2015-10-06T09:37:34Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:37:58Z remi`bd: don’t know about Ada, it was a guess 2015-10-06T09:39:23Z pw_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T09:43:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:44:58Z loke: Arguably, C doesn't define arrays to be a sequence of bytes either. 2015-10-06T09:46:06Z ralt: I guess. I've used uint8_t* a lot lately :-) 2015-10-06T09:46:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T09:47:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:47:45Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T09:51:04Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:51:31Z loke: ralt: Yes, but there is no guarantee that that an int* will point to is anything like your uint8_t* 2015-10-06T09:52:46Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:53:22Z snv1: loke, C/C++ doesn't even define a "byte" 2015-10-06T09:53:31Z Ettore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T09:53:37Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:53:43Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:54:01Z p_l: at some point however, they defined char to be exactly 8bits 2015-10-06T09:54:19Z p_l: and that pointer+1 must move by char, iirc 2015-10-06T09:54:38Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:57:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-06T09:58:01Z ralt: p_l, isn't it unsigned char that has to be exactly 8bits? 2015-10-06T09:58:28Z p_l: ralt: I'm not sure they ever finalized whether char is signed or unsigned 2015-10-06T09:59:17Z loke: p_l: I don't think they did. They defined it to be _at_least_ 8 bits, and that sizeof(char)==1 2015-10-06T09:59:22Z p_l: pointer arithmetic moving by chars is definitely in, which makes issues for architectures that are addressable on higher resolution than 8bit chunks (like that one cpu whose pointers point to bits...) 2015-10-06T09:59:42Z p_l: loke: sounds more complete than what I remember, yeah 2015-10-06T10:01:36Z loke notes that had Unicvac had a C compiler, it's char would have been roughly 40 bits) 2015-10-06T10:01:51Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-06T10:01:52Z loke: I mean "its". 2015-10-06T10:01:58Z loke: I _do_ know english grammar. 2015-10-06T10:02:05Z loke: (mostly) 2015-10-06T10:02:13Z p_l: loke: Pascal's 10 character case-nonpreserving symbols are legacy of 60bit word 2015-10-06T10:02:52Z p_l: (6bit characters stuffed into 60bit cpu word) 2015-10-06T10:03:31Z loke: Univac had 12-digit decimal integers... 2015-10-06T10:03:45Z loke: I wonder how text was represented in it 2015-10-06T10:03:45Z p_l: hehe 2015-10-06T10:05:26Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-06T10:13:24Z durm joined #lisp 2015-10-06T10:17:31Z john-mcaleely quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-06T10:17:39Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2015-10-06T10:23:15Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-06T10:24:32Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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One thing I dislike is that to make locally-scoped variables or functions, I have to use (let) or (labels)/(flet). In e.g. Python I can build up a logical small function all at one nesting level, but I always find my (defuns) getting more and more indented for no real gain. I feel it makes the functions more confusing... 2015-10-06T18:47:44Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-06T18:48:29Z newdan: If I could just (defun) and (setq) freely inside a (defun) that would be stellar. But AFAIK defun always makes a global func and setq won't work if the variable hasn't been predefined? 2015-10-06T18:48:51Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:49:15Z Demosthe1ex: ok, i saw an announcement that was basically macros trying to clean up some old CL syntax (like get-hash) but i can't find the project name. anyone know? 2015-10-06T18:50:58Z jlarocco: newdan: do you have an example of what you mean? 2015-10-06T18:51:10Z zwdr: I agree an example would be good 2015-10-06T18:53:22Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T18:53:40Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:54:41Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:55:06Z newdan: jlarocco: zwdr https://dpaste.de/t77B 2015-10-06T18:55:23Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:55:25Z newdan: It probably won't make too much sense. This is Emacs Lisp, and I want a keyboard shortcut that will do two things 2015-10-06T18:55:56Z newdan: If I'm in a buffer in my project, I want to run the bash command "rhwtest" on the filename of the buffer I'm in 2015-10-06T18:56:06Z newdan: Otherwise I want to run the "rhwtest" command on the filename that the cursor is pointing to 2015-10-06T18:56:25Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:56:38Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-06T18:56:59Z newdan: But the indentaion for (labels) is really ugly, the let/if/let is really ugly 2015-10-06T18:57:27Z newdan: I could clean this up easily if it were Python (which isn't totally fair because I'm much more used to Python) but I don't know how to make this any less gross in elisp 2015-10-06T18:57:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:58:00Z newdan: And I'm reluctant to make more (defuns) because it pollutes the global namespace 2015-10-06T18:58:23Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T18:58:28Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:58:47Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T18:59:04Z ziocroc quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-06T18:59:14Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-06T18:59:15Z renopt joined #lisp 2015-10-06T18:59:24Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:00:51Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T19:01:10Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:01:57Z p8m: newdan: why do you need the second let? 2015-10-06T19:02:25Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:02:25Z manuel___ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T19:02:27Z manuel__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T19:02:35Z jlarocco: yeah, doesn't seem worth it to make abs-rhw-path since it's only used once 2015-10-06T19:02:59Z newdan: I disagree, I don't like too many "things" happening in the same instruction 2015-10-06T19:03:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: newdan: the example I give is slightly silly, but this paste shows a way to use a macro to get something like what you want 2015-10-06T19:03:21Z newdan: I don't mind using a named variable if it makes the function more clear. Which it kinda does if only barely 2015-10-06T19:03:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+3COS 2015-10-06T19:03:33Z jlarocco: actually, abs-rhw-path and file-rel-path are both used only once 2015-10-06T19:03:42Z newdan: jlarocco: I don't think that's an issue 2015-10-06T19:03:53Z newdan: The only issue with it is the nesting imposed by (let) 2015-10-06T19:04:08Z renopt left #lisp 2015-10-06T19:04:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I kinda like the nesting myself, though 2015-10-06T19:04:21Z newdan: Naming things makes them more clear imo 2015-10-06T19:04:23Z jlarocco: true, they could just as easily be used multiple times 2015-10-06T19:04:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: newdan: the nesting helps you see the scope of the names more clearly. 2015-10-06T19:04:53Z jlarocco: I think it's just something you get used to 2015-10-06T19:05:08Z newdan: fiddlerwoaroof: It does but it makes the outline of the function look so much more involved than it really is 2015-10-06T19:05:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: in Python, assignment is frequently annoying because it assigns to the local scope rather than the scope you want it to define to. 2015-10-06T19:05:44Z jlarocco: I think it seems bad in your example because you're only defining one variable or function in each label and let 2015-10-06T19:06:03Z mood: newdan: That's something to get used to. In Lisp, a couple of levels of nesting really isn't complicated 2015-10-06T19:06:28Z mood: It just makes the scope of variables explicit, making it a lot easier to see how many levels of scoping there really are 2015-10-06T19:06:33Z jlarocco: also, another nitpick, the let* could be a plain let 2015-10-06T19:06:58Z newdan: jlarocco: Good point 2015-10-06T19:07:20Z newdan: mood: I suppose but I mean if I could (setq) for local variables I feel like I'd get the same benefit but without more nesting every time I want to add a new variable 2015-10-06T19:07:41Z newdan: It makes me really hesitant to name intermediate steps of my function, which is something I'm fond of doing 2015-10-06T19:07:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: newdan: also, it's probably better to just define the helper function at the top level and use packages to hide it. 2015-10-06T19:08:01Z mood: newdan: Except that the (setq) would actually create a new scope 2015-10-06T19:08:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least, that's what I'd do) 2015-10-06T19:09:48Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:10:17Z newdan: mood: To be honest I'm not very familiar with what (setq) actually does. But in most languages I work in it's pretty easy to make a new local variable 2015-10-06T19:10:24Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:10:29Z mood: newdan: What you *could* do, is put empty bindings in a single let and assign them later. 2015-10-06T19:10:38Z newdan: To me it seems like (let x 3) (f x) would be more clear than (let ((x 3)) (f x)) 2015-10-06T19:11:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: newdan: http://paste.lisp.org/+3COS gives you something like that 2015-10-06T19:11:40Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T19:11:42Z dlowe: newdan: you have an assurance with the former that the scope of the variable will not escape out of the parens 2015-10-06T19:11:53Z dlowe: (unless the variable is declared special somewhere) 2015-10-06T19:12:22Z jlarocco: does emacs lisp have CL-like packages? I thought it didn't 2015-10-06T19:12:27Z mood: It doesn't 2015-10-06T19:12:40Z dlowe: You can use DEFINE in scheme to declare variables in the current scope. Most people still use LET 2015-10-06T19:15:46Z rhllor quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T19:18:30Z p8m: newdan: If you want to break a function into intermediate steps, why not create multiple functions? 2015-10-06T19:18:33Z newdan: This is my (admittedly Python like) goal of what I wish I could get it to look like https://dpaste.de/7A7r 2015-10-06T19:19:40Z newdan: I mean I still feel like the (let) in there is a bit opaque but I ran out of energy at that point lol 2015-10-06T19:20:22Z newdan: p8m: I guess that's what I'll do. I mean they're so small that I don't like putting them at the toplevel since it might not be as clear they're just mini-helpers, but I guess I could prefix them with underscores or something 2015-10-06T19:21:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: newdan: I often find that helper functions turn out to be more useful than the function they help :) 2015-10-06T19:22:40Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:24:47Z rhllor joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:30:28Z p8m: newdan: I would just call those functions directly if I'm only using the value once. something like https://dpaste.de/opyA 2015-10-06T19:32:57Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T19:33:27Z quasisan1 is now known as quasisane 2015-10-06T19:33:32Z newdan: p8m: Haha, it starts a unittest runner :) I'm assuming the file in question is a test module for the project I'm working on 2015-10-06T19:36:36Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-06T19:39:12Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-06T19:39:34Z NeverDie joined #lisp 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2015-10-06T19:55:09Z pyon: Sorry! 2015-10-06T19:59:35Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-06T20:02:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T20:02:57Z Bike quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-06T20:05:37Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:05:59Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:09:45Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:13:56Z Fare: newdan: I use (nest) and (let ((foo (bar))) 2015-10-06T20:14:25Z Fare: newdan: nest gives you same-level definitions 2015-10-06T20:14:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:14:58Z Fare: I made it part of uiop because it's so damn practical 2015-10-06T20:15:27Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:18:48Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:23:39Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T20:23:52Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:24:28Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T20:25:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-06T20:29:06Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T20:31:48Z Bahman quit 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I want (MERGE-PATHNAMES (PATHNAME "/a/b/") (PATHNAME "../")) --> #P"/a/" but it doesn't I have to use (MERGE-PATHNAMES (PATHNAME "../") (PATHNAME "/a/b/")) - which seems backwards to me. 2015-10-06T21:16:11Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:16:17Z drmeister: I read the CLHS. I see the "Constructs a pathname from pathname by filling in any unsupplied components with the corresponding values from default-pathname and default-version." 2015-10-06T21:16:30Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-06T21:16:47Z drmeister: It just feels backwards to me. 2015-10-06T21:17:10Z drmeister: Meh - I can live with it. 2015-10-06T21:17:34Z drmeister: Just typing this out helped me get it off my chest and come to terms with it. 2015-10-06T21:18:00Z Shinmera: ../ is a relative pathname, /.. is an absolute one 2015-10-06T21:18:07Z Shinmera: An absolute one will always override a relative one. 2015-10-06T21:18:47Z drmeister: Is (PROBE-FILE (MERGE-PATHNAMES (PATHNAME "../") (PATHNAME "/a/b/"))) a good way to convert a relative pathname into an absolute pathname (relative to /a/b/) ? 2015-10-06T21:19:00Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:19:01Z Shinmera: Sure. 2015-10-06T21:19:12Z drmeister: Thank yew 2015-10-06T21:19:28Z nyef: Note that the file must exist if you want to get a filename out of PROBE-FILE. 2015-10-06T21:19:45Z nyef: ... And I'm not sure if it works on directories? 2015-10-06T21:20:02Z Shinmera: Might it not also change because probe-file returns a truename? 2015-10-06T21:20:10Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T21:20:18Z Shinmera: Which may or may not be the same as the path you passed in. 2015-10-06T21:20:18Z nyef: That too. 2015-10-06T21:20:45Z nyef: My mind is kicking up a fuss about ENOUGH-NAMESTRING being possibly-relevant. 2015-10-06T21:21:47Z drmeister: It works on directories in Clasp 2015-10-06T21:22:31Z Shinmera: Just be careful if you expect the path returned by probe-file to still be in the same directory hierarchy as the one you passed in -- it might have changed due to truenamisation 2015-10-06T21:22:49Z drmeister: I think I want a truename because I'm passing this into a Unix command line. 2015-10-06T21:23:06Z Shinmera: If you want to pass it in you'll want even better than that-- you'll want a native-namestring. 2015-10-06T21:23:21Z Shinmera: UIOP has that function. 2015-10-06T21:23:23Z drmeister: Oooo - how do I get one of those? 2015-10-06T21:23:51Z Shinmera: the NAMESTRING of your implementation may or may not always produce amiable namestrings for external programs. I think UIOP's NATIVE-NAMESTRING is supposed to fix that. 2015-10-06T21:24:05Z drmeister: Found it 2015-10-06T21:24:11Z Shinmera: (also see UIOP:PARSE-NATIVE-NAMESTRING for the reverse) 2015-10-06T21:24:29Z jocuman quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-06T21:24:46Z drmeister: http://bimib.disco.unimib.it/people/Marco.Antoniotti/Projects/CL/HELAMBDAP/tests/asdf-uiop/docs/html/dictionary/dictionary.html 2015-10-06T21:26:25Z drmeister: FLET is nice and everything - but it doesn't let you interactively debug the FLET functions does it? 2015-10-06T21:27:09Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:27:14Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:27:19Z Shinmera: drmeister: If you want instant docs for things you can also try staple-server (you can quickload it) on SBCL or something. 2015-10-06T21:27:42Z Shinmera: (after loading just do (staple-server:start) ) 2015-10-06T21:28:13Z Shinmera: Works really nicely for UIOP, actually. 2015-10-06T21:28:25Z drmeister: Thanks. I'm working in low level Clasp. 2015-10-06T21:28:39Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:28:47Z drmeister: I'm getting the static analyzer to run on the ~600 source files of Cando. Gotta do some chemistry. 2015-10-06T21:29:30Z Shinmera: One day it'll run on Clasp too. 2015-10-06T21:31:37Z mood: Shinmera: Wow, that's awesome 2015-10-06T21:31:50Z Shinmera should revise the stylesheet for it though 2015-10-06T21:31:56Z Shinmera: One more todo item, sigh 2015-10-06T21:32:03Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:32:12Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:33:52Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:35:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:35:19Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:36:45Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-06T21:37:49Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T21:38:05Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:39:06Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T21:40:38Z drmeister: I missed that - it already runs on Clasp. 2015-10-06T21:41:07Z digiorgi: Hi! i wan't to capture a variable value inside a loop, and not the variable itself, for example i want that : (mapcar 'funcall (loop for i from 0 to 5 collecting (lambda () (print i)))), prints 0,1,2,3,4,5 and not only 6 2015-10-06T21:41:54Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:42:09Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:42:25Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:42:50Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T21:44:35Z joshe: you mean like (print (loop for i from 0 to 5 collecting i)) ? 2015-10-06T21:45:25Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T21:45:41Z digiorgi: yes, i don't actually undestand why a let inside the lambda doesn't solve the problem 2015-10-06T21:46:11Z digiorgi: but instead a let outside the lambda solve it 2015-10-06T21:46:53Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T21:47:02Z digiorgi: (let ((x i)) (lambda () (print x)) vs (lambda () (let ((x i)) (print x)) 2015-10-06T21:49:19Z Bike: oh, i see what you're trying to say. 2015-10-06T21:49:41Z Bike: the loop only establishes one binding, which is repeatedly altered. 2015-10-06T21:50:19Z jocuman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T21:50:28Z Bike: the loop is like (let (i) (list (progn (setf i 0) (lambda () (print i))) (progn (setf i 1) (lambda () (print i))) ...)). as such, only one variable is closed over by the multiple functions. 2015-10-06T21:50:39Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T21:51:04Z Bike: what you do with (let ((x i)) (lambda () (print x))) is establish a new binding, and it's a different binding for each function, so each function is a different closure. 2015-10-06T21:51:12Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-10-06T21:52:04Z digiorgi: thanks!! a perfect explanation (: 2015-10-06T21:56:06Z raazdaan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(PATHNAME "ab"))) is a bad way to do anything, since merge-pathnames will return a directory pathname, and probe-file expects a file pathname. So some implementation will CONFORMINGLY signal an error: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20(PROBE-FILE%20(MERGE-PATHNAMES%20(PATHNAME%20\"..\")%20(PATHNAME%20\"ab\")))%20is%20a%20bad%20way%20to%20do%20anything%2C 2015-10-06T22:33:18Z pjb: minion: memo for drmeister: (PROBE-FILE (MERGE-PATHNAMES (PATHNAME "../") (PATHNAME "/a/b/"))) is a bad way to do anything, since merge-pathnames will return a directory pathname, and probe-file expects a file pathname. So some implementation will CONFORMINGLY signal an error. 2015-10-06T22:33:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-06T22:33:22Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:33:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:37:35Z rvirding joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:39:11Z tmokros joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:41:12Z lancetw joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:41:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-06T22:43:31Z mattprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:43:54Z pjb: msg - pjb 2015-10-06T22:49:15Z faheem__ joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:52:43Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-06T22:53:19Z Xach: only clisp, the worst implementation, does that. 2015-10-06T22:54:00Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T22:54:36Z PuercoPop: Xach: Is clisp worse than GCL? 2015-10-06T22:54:56Z pjb: The most conforming implementation, you mean. 2015-10-06T22:55:06Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-06T22:55:27Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T22:55:33Z joshe: if you use clisp, never read its code if you want to sleep at night 2015-10-06T22:55:46Z joshe: especially the ffi library 2015-10-06T22:57:58Z XachX: It's way better because there are no GCL trolls in this channel 2015-10-06T22:59:40Z nyef: ... Golden Common Lisp? 2015-10-06T22:59:51Z PuercoPop: nyef: Gnu Common Lisp 2015-10-06T23:00:14Z nyef: PuercoPop: Meh. The GNU people are a johnny-come-lately to that acronym. 2015-10-06T23:01:47Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-06T23:02:41Z PuercoPop: joshe: "Whatever implementation you choose, be assured that it has been hacked on since you were a small child and has more comments saying "kludge" or "fixme" than the Plan 9 kernel has LOC." from (http://axisofeval.blogspot.pe/2010/06/letter-to-young-pl-enthusiast.html) 2015-10-06T23:04:15Z resttime: wow I didn't know there was a gnu common lisp 2015-10-06T23:04:15Z minion: resttime, memo from Fare: to help with uiop:run-program on sbcl/windows, see https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1501373 2015-10-06T23:06:34Z resttime: Ah Fare: I think that's a specific bug in general which I encountered with CFFI 2015-10-06T23:06:42Z Fare: GCL is not super maintained 2015-10-06T23:06:48Z nyef: resttime: And now that you know, you can ignore it deliberately, like almost everyone else does. 2015-10-06T23:06:53Z Fare: ASDF support is lacking 2015-10-06T23:07:06Z Fare: and the maintainer is not responding to my mail about it 2015-10-06T23:07:13Z resttime: Basically you can't redirect the run-program output in windows 2015-10-06T23:07:14Z Fare: once every so many months for a few years now 2015-10-06T23:07:17Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:07:28Z resttime: However you can open a direct stream and read that output 2015-10-06T23:07:37Z resttime: Let me go find the patch for cffi that 2015-10-06T23:08:14Z resttime: Fare: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/a9ec33b2aac3130cc4cc6fcae75bd0fd13718b82 2015-10-06T23:09:22Z resttime: Actually wait different SBCL versions and it works hmmm... 2015-10-06T23:09:38Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T23:12:57Z resttime: Hmmmm, on second thought it might be related 2015-10-06T23:13:59Z Fare: resttime: this is not helping locate the bug in uiop 2015-10-06T23:14:06Z Fare: and/or fix the limitations in sbcl 2015-10-06T23:15:19Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:15:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:15:28Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:17:14Z gensym quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-06T23:18:28Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:19:24Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:21:14Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-06T23:22:02Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T23:22:02Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-06T23:22:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:22:20Z minion joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:23:00Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:25:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:31:32Z resttime: Fare: Okay yeah, grabbed asdf 3.1.3 downgraded and it works 2015-10-06T23:33:26Z resttime: SBCL 1.2.15 2015-10-06T23:34:13Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:34:13Z raazdaan quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-06T23:34:56Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-06T23:38:11Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-06T23:38:18Z heddwch is now known as indekkusu 2015-10-06T23:38:47Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:39:30Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:40:10Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:40:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:41:50Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:43:09Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:46:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-06T23:46:59Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:48:10Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-06T23:49:00Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:51:01Z indekkusu is now known as heddwch 2015-10-06T23:52:00Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:52:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-06T23:55:04Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:06:10Z resttime: Fare: okay I found the bug 2015-10-07T00:06:46Z resttime: Line 897: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp 2015-10-07T00:06:59Z resttime: (when (stringp command) 2015-10-07T00:07:01Z resttime: (unless force-shell-suppliedp 2015-10-07T00:07:03Z resttime: (setf force-shell t))) 2015-10-07T00:07:41Z resttime: comment that out and it should work I believe 2015-10-07T00:09:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T00:11:26Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T00:13:28Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:14:56Z resttime: Fare: Hmm I guess more specifically if FORCE-SHELL is T then there is no output 2015-10-07T00:16:27Z resttime: (uiop/run-program:run-program "c:/windows/system32/tree /?" :output :string :force-shell nil) works 2015-10-07T00:17:35Z resttime: If the keyword isn't supplied then FORCE-SHELL is set to T by default 2015-10-07T00:17:38Z resttime: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/commit/9d86792973e2bf11128b74fb8fd616ae0d9cfd6c 2015-10-07T00:17:40Z resttime: This commit 2015-10-07T00:19:44Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:21:42Z resttime: Unfortunately, I think I've only found a superficial work around so far... 2015-10-07T00:23:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T00:24:19Z resttime: Err also to clarify the command specifically works on SBCL 1.2.15 when keyword FORCE-SHELL is NIL 2015-10-07T00:27:28Z Fare: what does force-shell do? 2015-10-07T00:27:47Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T00:28:05Z Fare: I can guess what it does. 2015-10-07T00:28:16Z Fare: and why that wouldn't work with SBCL 2015-10-07T00:31:57Z Fare: resttime, ok, I pushed a 3.1.5.20 -- can you test? 2015-10-07T00:32:08Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:32:39Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T00:35:48Z Fare: resttime: thanks a lot for tracking down the issue 2015-10-07T00:36:09Z resttime: Fare: From what I can figure force-shell tries to do things without a stream to a process 2015-10-07T00:36:23Z resttime: also no problem, let me just test the push now... 2015-10-07T00:38:17Z resttime: Fare: yup working now 2015-10-07T00:38:45Z resttime: Err * without a stream the command's process 2015-10-07T00:38:51Z resttime: *to 2015-10-07T00:39:05Z Fare: ? 2015-10-07T00:39:10Z resttime: Which is %system and %use-system 2015-10-07T00:39:31Z Fare: I didn't understand your remark 2015-10-07T00:39:46Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T00:39:49Z Fare: is it working or not? 2015-10-07T00:39:50Z resttime: oh I was referring to what I was trying to figure about what was broken 2015-10-07T00:39:54Z resttime: yes it works 2015-10-07T00:41:57Z Fare: thanks, I updated the bug. 2015-10-07T00:41:59Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-07T00:42:06Z Fare: I believe we're about ready for release 3.1.6 2015-10-07T00:45:49Z resttime: nice :) 2015-10-07T00:47:34Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:49:50Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T00:50:12Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T00:50:17Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-07T00:50:25Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:56:14Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2015-10-07T00:57:59Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:05:26Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:06:38Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T01:09:19Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T01:12:37Z Bike quit (Quit: resta) 2015-10-07T01:14:14Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:15:58Z Fare files https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1503496 so SBCL would provide an API that enables use of CMD.EXE 2015-10-07T01:17:23Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-07T01:18:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:18:42Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:19:09Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:20:03Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:20:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:22:03Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:22:10Z nyef sighs. 2015-10-07T01:22:19Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:23:03Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T01:23:44Z nyef: Five handwritten pages of notes towards a LispOS, and the sixth takes a turn for the normal application stuff instead. 2015-10-07T01:24:38Z akkad: nyef: froggy's stuff? 2015-10-07T01:25:39Z digiorgi: In ABCL is possible to use generic types? 2015-10-07T01:26:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:27:14Z theos joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:27:19Z Zhivago: What do you mean by generic types? 2015-10-07T01:28:07Z theos left #lisp 2015-10-07T01:29:02Z nyef: akkad: No, my own thoughts on how a LispOS might be structured. 2015-10-07T01:31:51Z Zhivago: What problem is the LispOS trying to solve? 2015-10-07T01:33:21Z nyef: Yes, exactly. 2015-10-07T01:33:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T01:34:05Z nyef: And then, given this design approach for a LispOS, can we use it to good effect for something other than a LispOS? 2015-10-07T01:34:44Z heddwch is now known as yeddwcy 2015-10-07T01:38:36Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T01:39:56Z yeddwcy is now known as heddwch 2015-10-07T01:40:20Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: I was thinking about what you said previously ('what would be new besides being written in another language'). An interesting idea to explore could be syscalls as generic functions and resources as classes. 2015-10-07T01:40:25Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T01:41:02Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:41:57Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:42:06Z brunov0id quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T01:45:19Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:46:30Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:48:48Z Fare: nyef: did you publish your thoughts somewhere? 2015-10-07T01:49:05Z Fare: nyef: did you read my blog http://ngnghm.github.io ? 2015-10-07T01:49:46Z loke: Good morning Lisp! 2015-10-07T01:50:59Z Fare: Zhivago, did you? 2015-10-07T01:51:21Z nyef: Fare: I've been writing them down over the past few days, in pen. They're more for my use than for sharing at this point. 2015-10-07T01:51:27Z nyef: Fare: ... new blog? 2015-10-07T01:51:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:52:18Z warweasle: Just made a (hopefully viable) wrapper to the bullet physics library: https://github.com/BradWBeer/valentine 2015-10-07T01:53:05Z nyef: ... with an odd vowel-to-consonant ratio, at that. 2015-10-07T01:54:27Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:54:31Z Zhivago: Not yet, but I will do so. 2015-10-07T01:57:08Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-07T01:58:42Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-10-07T02:01:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:05:58Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T02:08:01Z Fare: nyef: newish 2015-10-07T02:08:30Z Fare: nyef: if you like the format, you're welcome for an invited post 2015-10-07T02:09:04Z Fare: nyef: equines are not big on vowels. 2015-10-07T02:10:23Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:13:49Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:14:42Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T02:25:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:30:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T02:31:12Z warweasle: In sbcl/slime, is there a way to go to the location of the error. I have some long autogenerated files and I can't find my errors. 2015-10-07T02:32:57Z digiorgi: (compile "file.lisp" :verbose t)? 2015-10-07T02:33:12Z digiorgi: load** 2015-10-07T02:33:16Z warweasle: digiorgi: Can I do that with quicklisp? 2015-10-07T02:33:28Z nyef: Fare: It's like a version of Mr. Ed from before the invention of the distance-sight system! 2015-10-07T02:33:30Z warweasle smacks his forehead. 2015-10-07T02:33:37Z warweasle: of course I can. 2015-10-07T02:33:49Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:33:49Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T02:34:26Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T02:43:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:43:46Z nyef: Heh. Just got to the part where Ngnghm feels the same way that I do sometimes about our computing systems: Amazement that they function at all. 2015-10-07T02:49:02Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T02:50:51Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:51:55Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T02:52:51Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:53:05Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:54:57Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-07T02:55:03Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T02:55:46Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T02:57:24Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T03:00:13Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T03:00:20Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:03:21Z doesthiswork: 2015-10-07T03:03:57Z doesthiswork: I wish Ngnghm was more foreign and less familiar. 2015-10-07T03:06:56Z brunov0id quit 2015-10-07T03:09:10Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T03:12:36Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T03:21:37Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:22:40Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:24:06Z warweasle quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T03:32:35Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T03:33:53Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T03:35:26Z White_Flame: Fare: I read your blog a few weeks ago, and had disagreements & noticed shortcomings of some of the ideas. I'd have to go through it again to actually compile them, but would you be interested in that perspective? 2015-10-07T03:35:46Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:36:33Z White_Flame: mostly about security, information explosion, context management, etc 2015-10-07T03:40:58Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:41:31Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:43:46Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:43:49Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:43:56Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-07T03:48:47Z npatrick04 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T03:49:55Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T03:51:03Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-07T03:54:07Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-07T03:54:52Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-07T03:58:39Z loke: hello beach! 2015-10-07T03:58:41Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-07T03:58:53Z loke: http://www.nyef.org.np/ 2015-10-07T04:00:29Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:02:40Z nyef: loke: I... think I've seen that before. 2015-10-07T04:02:42Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:02:48Z loke: nyef probably 2015-10-07T04:02:55Z loke: seems like something I would do 2015-10-07T04:04:28Z beach: nyef: Do you have any plans for cleaning up your hand-written notes in order to put them online? 2015-10-07T04:05:28Z nyef: beach: Not especially, no. I probably will if I decide to go through with implementation, however. 2015-10-07T04:06:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:07:06Z nyef: The important part, to me, is that it's no longer in my head, and I can review it periodically or if I have reason to believe that it may become something that needs to be worked on. 2015-10-07T04:07:34Z beach: I understand. 2015-10-07T04:07:46Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T04:08:58Z nyef: The follow-on notes were about taking the basic design and using it to produce a Linux-based Lisp implementation. But, again, I'm not finding any particular reason to follow-through with an actual implementation. 2015-10-07T04:09:17Z nyef: It seems to solve a non-problem, at best. 2015-10-07T04:11:04Z nyef: One interesting idea to come out of it, though, is that there may be a use for a statically-linkable subset of common lisp. 2015-10-07T04:11:26Z beach: What does that mean? 2015-10-07T04:12:32Z beach: I spend a significant amount of time thinking about things that others probably consider non-problems. 2015-10-07T04:13:28Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-10-07T04:13:45Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:14:54Z nyef: In practice, restrictions on legal toplevel forms, LOAD-TIME-VALUE forms, DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER initializers, and so on. 2015-10-07T04:14:54Z nyef: But it means that a program could build a full system image from a set of FASLs, and not have a stack of "top level form functions" to run, the way that SBCL does, or similar. 2015-10-07T04:14:55Z nyef: Because of the subset of CL used, the target system starts of fairly close to fully initialized to begin with. 2015-10-07T04:16:42Z beach: I don't see what problem it solves. :) 2015-10-07T04:17:13Z beach: Seriously, I don't quite understand. 2015-10-07T04:17:18Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:18:58Z beach: Though, if you don't feel like digging deeper, it's OK. 2015-10-07T04:19:25Z nyef: Mmm. 2015-10-07T04:19:31Z nyef: It's already gone midnight. 2015-10-07T04:20:07Z nyef: Anyway, it's a variation on the whole "small executable" / "shared library" / "deployment toolkit" thing. 2015-10-07T04:20:16Z beach: I see. 2015-10-07T04:22:20Z beach: Well, let's do it some time when you feel more rested. 2015-10-07T04:23:44Z nyef: Yeah, part of the problem is figuring out what on earth it would be FOR. As I said, it seems like a solution to a non-problem. 2015-10-07T04:26:54Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:27:29Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T04:27:52Z keen___________5 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:27:56Z pjb: you just gather toplevel form into a "main" function. 2015-10-07T04:28:14Z pjb: This is trivial, and well understood since Modula-2 at leastr. 2015-10-07T04:28:19Z pjb: s/r././ 2015-10-07T04:28:58Z nyef: pjb: Are the semantics not such that a toplevel form can call a function, and then a subsequent form can redefine that function? 2015-10-07T04:29:25Z keen___________4 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T04:29:39Z pjb: On the other hand, what you want to fight against, is lisp objects that don't have a load-form, that is, that the implementation doesn't know how to serialize to the fasl. 2015-10-07T04:31:11Z pjb: For example, with the ccl Objective-C bridge you can have in the image references to Objective-C objects, and when saving the image, those pointers are broken and those objects cannot be saved. Similarly if you defvar bind one Objective-C object, you won't be able to save it to the fasl. 2015-10-07T04:31:12Z nyef: pjb: Therefore, the presence of such toplevel forms means that there must also be toplevel forms for defining each function, and then you run that backwards to find that the first toplevel form must be to apply all subsequent toplevel forms in sequence, without actually calling any functions, because they aren't yet set up. 2015-10-07T04:31:35Z pjb: nyef: if you want to restrict function redefinition, you want to do that independently of the toplevel. 2015-10-07T04:32:51Z nyef: You also have the defined semantic that if a toplevel form calls a function that calls an undefined function, the undefined-function-error (whatever it's called) may be handled. And that is, again, a possible semantics change without requiring function redefinition. 2015-10-07T04:33:46Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T04:34:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:35:16Z profess joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:37:29Z nyef: Here's another consequence of this approach: The only parts of the system that need to be treated as GC roots are the SYMBOLs, some of the PACKAGEs, the GENERIC-FUNCTIONs, and whatever is used to bind function-names to their functions (which may not be SYMBOLs). Pretty much everything else is immutable, therefore does not need to be scanned by the GC. 2015-10-07T04:39:59Z pillton: nyef: Why is the goal to remake a common lisp implementation? Why not create other types of compilation units that are free of issues associated with "fast loading"? 2015-10-07T04:41:25Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T04:42:17Z nyef: pillton: Exactly! "Where's the point?" 2015-10-07T04:42:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:42:40Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-07T04:42:42Z pillton: nyef: I'd like a compilation unit that guarantees there is no consing. 2015-10-07T04:42:58Z nyef: No consing... when? 2015-10-07T04:43:56Z pillton: I write lots of code which uses pre-allocated memory. I still can't guarantee that my code doesn't cons. 2015-10-07T04:44:06Z nyef: Ah. 2015-10-07T04:44:57Z nyef: So you'd like something like a DECLARE or an OPTIMIZE quality that the compiler will not emit a heap-allocation sequence, nor will it emit a full-call to a function that it knows will heap-allocate? 2015-10-07T04:45:08Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T04:45:19Z nyef: And that if it does, it will pitch a WARNING at compile-time? 2015-10-07T04:45:30Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T04:45:39Z pillton: Yes. 2015-10-07T04:45:51Z nyef: Not quite a perfect guarantee, as it's not binding on any called functions, but it'd go quite a ways towards it. 2015-10-07T04:46:10Z nyef: And that doesn't even require introducing a new compilation-unit type. 2015-10-07T04:46:13Z pillton: I'd also like the compiler to make the assumption that the code for certain functions will not change. 2015-10-07T04:46:48Z pillton: I also write lots of functions which are defined over the set of all numbers. At run-time however, only a single type e.g. double-floats is used. 2015-10-07T04:47:10Z pillton: A compilation unit that performs type inference on these functions would save me a lot of time. 2015-10-07T04:47:49Z nyef: Why a "compilation unit" here? 2015-10-07T04:48:01Z nyef: Why not ask for the ability to define type-derivation rules for your own functions? 2015-10-07T04:49:06Z pillton: I'd like the compiler to generate the most specialized version for the compilation unit. 2015-10-07T04:50:20Z nyef: So... you'd have one version for each data type, the main entry point does a type-dispatch to find the appropriate per-type implementation, and you want to short-circuit the dispatch when the data-type can be determined at compile-time? 2015-10-07T04:50:43Z pillton: That is what I do already, but it is a pain to manage. 2015-10-07T04:51:00Z nyef: "A pain", how? 2015-10-07T04:51:46Z nyef: Are you inlining the type-dispatch, or manually selecting the appropriate per-type function, or doing something else entirely? 2015-10-07T04:51:47Z pillton: You need the function. You need a compiler macro and you need a template in which to synthesize the different specializations. 2015-10-07T04:52:40Z nyef: Mmm... And then, because you're using a compiler-macro, you're STILL sunk when it comes to derived-type information. 2015-10-07T04:52:52Z pillton: There are ways around it. 2015-10-07T04:53:11Z pillton: cltl2 helps. 2015-10-07T04:53:26Z nyef: And I'm failing to see why the concept of a "compilation unit" is getting dragged in here. 2015-10-07T04:53:46Z pillton: The compiler does the work. Not me. 2015-10-07T04:54:16Z nyef: ... Are we using different definitions of the term "compilation unit"? 2015-10-07T04:54:28Z pillton: Quite possibly. 2015-10-07T04:55:05Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-07T04:55:10Z pillton: I single block of code that a compiler gets to work on in its entirety. 2015-10-07T04:56:28Z nyef: clhs with-compilation-unit 2015-10-07T04:56:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm 2015-10-07T04:56:35Z nyef: And the related glossary entry. 2015-10-07T04:57:16Z heddwch is now known as yangzhia 2015-10-07T04:57:43Z phf: so i complained about slime-edit-definition failing to find asdf functions on account of with-upgradability, but it seems like cmucl can still find them no problem. so it might just be something that could be improved on the compiler side instead... 2015-10-07T04:57:59Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T04:59:21Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-07T04:59:35Z pillton: nyef: That agrees with what I am saying. 2015-10-07T05:00:30Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:00:38Z nyef: But why are you trying to limit the scope to a single compilation unit? 2015-10-07T05:01:08Z pillton: nyef: Oh. In practice I only want this special compiler to be applied to certain code. 2015-10-07T05:01:14Z pillton: Not all code. 2015-10-07T05:01:36Z pillton: I am happy to use the implementation provided compiler which does fast loading for 99% of the time. 2015-10-07T05:01:44Z nyef: Why not all code? 2015-10-07T05:02:18Z yangzhia is now known as heddwch 2015-10-07T05:03:04Z pillton: nyef: Ok. A compiler which avoids function look ups at run time is not what I want all of the time. 2015-10-07T05:03:10Z pillton: For example. 2015-10-07T05:03:26Z nyef: So... INLINE / NOTINLINE ? 2015-10-07T05:03:43Z pillton: Again. Something I have to manage. 2015-10-07T05:04:00Z nyef: You'd have to manage it anyway. 2015-10-07T05:04:18Z pillton: No. I'd only have to manage the compilation unit and the compiler I choose for it. 2015-10-07T05:05:11Z pillton: I'm sorry. I have to go to a meeting. My apologies. 2015-10-07T05:05:24Z nyef: Okay, enjoy your meeting. 2015-10-07T05:05:27Z nyef: ... G'night. 2015-10-07T05:08:23Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:09:48Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:11:46Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:14:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:15:51Z gabriel_laddel: is anyone here familiar with what happened to cffi-unix? 2015-10-07T05:17:21Z gabriel_laddel: I can't find any information online about it, I'm guessing it's just a cffi package that was merged into the rest of CFFI but IDK. 2015-10-07T05:17:23Z eli quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:17:36Z gabriel_laddel: I'm attempting to get flexi-trival-dired running on one of my machines 2015-10-07T05:17:43Z gabriel_laddel: (a clim implementation of dired) 2015-10-07T05:18:01Z tmokros quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:18:16Z beach: gabriel_laddel: [sorry, not about cffi-unix] I made a new sub-directory named McCLIM/Specification in which I put a Makefile for making the PDF of the specification. I would appreciate if you would try it out. 2015-10-07T05:18:42Z gabriel_laddel: beach: alrighty 2015-10-07T05:18:46Z gabriel_laddel: one minute 2015-10-07T05:18:53Z beach: gabriel_laddel: The result is nicer than the previous one too, because I generate the included graphics PDFs from the EPSIs. 2015-10-07T05:19:19Z beach: And it makes the index with links that you can click on (provided you use a PDF reader that can handle those links). 2015-10-07T05:20:04Z beach: The index is a bit weird because it separates according to font. But it is better than nothing. 2015-10-07T05:20:30Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:20:59Z tmokros joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:22:03Z eli joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:23:10Z gabriel_laddel: beach: This is going to take a few minutes. I have changes to my local mcclim I did on a quicklisp dist rather than a repo and thus can't just pull. 2015-10-07T05:23:35Z beach: No rush. You can do it some other time. 2015-10-07T05:24:09Z gabriel_laddel: beach: do these three commits depend on anything else that has been done as of late? 2015-10-07T05:24:25Z beach: I don't think so. 2015-10-07T05:24:27Z beach: Why? 2015-10-07T05:24:30Z gabriel_laddel: neato 2015-10-07T05:25:28Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I'm going to make the changes in these three commits to my already diddled mcclim 2015-10-07T05:25:30Z gabriel_laddel: and try it out 2015-10-07T05:25:39Z beach: Sure. 2015-10-07T05:25:53Z beach: You can just copy the entire Specification directory. 2015-10-07T05:25:59Z beach: It depends on nothing else. 2015-10-07T05:26:59Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T05:28:15Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:30:41Z gabriel_laddel: beach: looks good so far... 2015-10-07T05:30:41Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T05:30:53Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:31:10Z beach: Great! It can be improved of course, but it's better than it was. 2015-10-07T05:31:10Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:31:51Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I must admit, now that, sans dired, and the conkeror browser I've a whole CLIM desktop I'm rather sold on the idea of a self-hosting spec 2015-10-07T05:32:33Z beach: By self-hosting spec, you mean the spec inside a CLIM application? 2015-10-07T05:32:36Z gabriel_laddel: I'm hacking out a pdf viewer sorta thing for clim and a 'active' spec isn't much more than that. 2015-10-07T05:32:39Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yeah 2015-10-07T05:32:39Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:32:46Z beach: Yes, I like that idea. 2015-10-07T05:33:13Z beach: It shouldn't be terribly hard. 2015-10-07T05:39:51Z loke: What can you do with mcclim? 2015-10-07T05:39:56Z loke: Are there exampled? 2015-10-07T05:39:57Z loke: examples 2015-10-07T05:40:00Z beach: Plenty. 2015-10-07T05:40:08Z loke: Where? 2015-10-07T05:40:18Z beach: Er, in the Examples directory. :) 2015-10-07T05:40:25Z fp0 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:40:28Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-10-07T05:40:30Z gabriel_laddel: loke: the CLIM listener is one of the best 2015-10-07T05:40:31Z loke: I ql'ed it, and there's a package called clim-demo, but it has no exprted functions 2015-10-07T05:40:42Z gabriel_laddel: loke: (clim-demo::DEMODEMO) 2015-10-07T05:40:54Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-10-07T05:40:56Z loke: Hmm, why isn't that exported, mewonders. 2015-10-07T05:41:11Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I don't know what it is, but libreoffice doesn't render the spec correctly. 2015-10-07T05:41:17Z loke: The function CLIM-DEMO::DEMODEMO is undefined. 2015-10-07T05:41:17Z gabriel_laddel: beach: it loooks lovely in emacs though. 2015-10-07T05:41:30Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-07T05:41:34Z beach: loke: Because there are tons of things to do, and only 1/100 of a person to do them. 2015-10-07T05:41:51Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Try evince. 2015-10-07T05:42:11Z beach: gabriel_laddel: You mean the PDF resulting from `make' I presume? 2015-10-07T05:42:12Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-07T05:42:12Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-07T05:42:19Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yeah 2015-10-07T05:42:31Z beach: Yeah, try `evince'. 2015-10-07T05:42:40Z beach: It gives you links and stuff. 2015-10-07T05:42:48Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I (ql:quickload 'clim-examples) and it works fine for me. 2015-10-07T05:42:51Z beach: Maybe Emacs does too. 2015-10-07T05:43:00Z gabriel_laddel: beach: no links in emacs, just a .png 2015-10-07T05:43:06Z beach: I see. 2015-10-07T05:43:07Z gabriel_laddel: rendered by ghostscript 2015-10-07T05:43:22Z beach: Let me know what you think about the rendering in evince. 2015-10-07T05:43:54Z beach: The KDE viewer also works well for that kind of stuff. I forget what it's called. 2015-10-07T05:44:34Z jackdaniel normally uses mupdf / zathura for pdf rendering 2015-10-07T05:44:41Z fp0 left #lisp 2015-10-07T05:44:45Z beach: Okular is the KDE one. 2015-10-07T05:45:43Z loke: So mcclim is the only implementation of clim that is available? 2015-10-07T05:45:55Z beach: loke: The only free one as far as I know. 2015-10-07T05:46:01Z loke: beach: OK. sad. 2015-10-07T05:46:07Z beach: Why is that? 2015-10-07T05:47:00Z gabriel_laddel: there is a blog with a tree as the splash image / header with a "search all common lisp docstrings" web tool 2015-10-07T05:47:05Z gabriel_laddel: and I can't remember the name of it 2015-10-07T05:47:09Z gabriel_laddel: anyone? 2015-10-07T05:47:22Z rme joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:47:29Z akkad: clhs.org? 2015-10-07T05:47:38Z beach: loke: Why is it sad? 2015-10-07T05:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: akkad: no 2015-10-07T05:48:26Z gabriel_laddel: akkad: it allows me to search the docstrings of *everything* in quicklisp. 2015-10-07T05:49:08Z loke: beach: Because it integrates very poorly with the rest of the system. Based on what I can see with only a quick look is that: Input methods are nonexistent. Font rendering seems to be limited to bitmapped fonts. No keyboard navigation to speak of. 2015-10-07T05:49:16Z gabriel_laddel: http://russ.unwashedmeme.com/blog/?p=391 2015-10-07T05:49:18Z gabriel_laddel: got it 2015-10-07T05:49:24Z loke: Oh, and there seem to be no copy&paste? 2015-10-07T05:49:37Z gabriel_laddel: loke: truetype fonts exist as an extension 2015-10-07T05:49:46Z beach: loke: And you think having more implementations of CLIM would fix that? 2015-10-07T05:50:04Z loke: beach: I was asking, hoping that there may be one that is more usable? 2015-10-07T05:50:38Z phf: what clim needs more of is freedesktop! and dbus! 2015-10-07T05:51:00Z gabriel_laddel: loke: use the CLIM listener 2015-10-07T05:51:03Z jackdaniel: and systemd integration! 2015-10-07T05:51:06Z gabriel_laddel: loke: it is very usable. 2015-10-07T05:51:24Z beach agrees with gabriel_laddel, but is tired of arguing with people about it. 2015-10-07T05:51:55Z jackdaniel: where is the mcclim main repository? 2015-10-07T05:52:09Z gabriel_laddel: jackdaniel: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM 2015-10-07T05:52:10Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM ? 2015-10-07T05:52:13Z jackdaniel: ay 2015-10-07T05:52:15Z beach: Yes. 2015-10-07T05:52:16Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-10-07T05:52:34Z loke: On a more personal note, I find the widget's look&feel are not very nice, but that's just my opinion. The lack of input method support is the main issue that kills it for me right now though. 2015-10-07T05:52:54Z gabriel_laddel: loke: what do you mean by "input method support"? 2015-10-07T05:53:12Z beach: Probably for Asian languages and such. 2015-10-07T05:53:13Z loke: gabriel_laddel: I can't type :-) 2015-10-07T05:53:30Z gabriel_laddel: loke: Yeah, I can type fine, so IDK 2015-10-07T05:53:37Z loke: gabriel_laddel: I can't even type my own last name: "Mårtenson" 2015-10-07T05:53:47Z gabriel_laddel: beach: interestingly, I can do russian in CLIM 2015-10-07T05:53:57Z gabriel_laddel: beach: you've just got to load in the truetype font support 2015-10-07T05:54:01Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Try using the compose character 2015-10-07T05:54:11Z loke: I have to type å by pressing Compose-*-A 2015-10-07T05:54:18Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I use it to display Vietnamese. 2015-10-07T05:54:26Z loke: the compose key is part of the ime stuff 2015-10-07T05:54:40Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I don't have a "compose" key on my keyboard? 2015-10-07T05:54:51Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Because you didn't enable it :-) 2015-10-07T05:55:03Z gabriel_laddel: loke: eh. 2015-10-07T05:55:11Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T05:55:13Z loke: There is an xorg setting for that. Usually you map one of the windows keys to it. 2015-10-07T05:55:18Z gabriel_laddel: CLIM does multilingual text for me, I'm going to call it AOK 2015-10-07T05:55:22Z gabriel_laddel: if you want it, it works 2015-10-07T05:55:34Z gabriel_laddel: you may have to implement a kill ring yourself, but bfd 2015-10-07T05:56:09Z beach: Anyway, I'll let you argue in peace. Time to get to work! 2015-10-07T05:56:12Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-07T05:56:38Z gabriel_laddel: ;; later tell beach the spec works / looks perfect in evince. 2015-10-07T05:56:43Z gabriel_laddel: Oh right. 2015-10-07T05:56:45Z phf: is it possible that clim is intercepting compose, since compose is most likely an altgr or somesuch underneath 2015-10-07T05:58:34Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Point its, that I find it sad that even getting basic stuff like keyboard input, copy&paste and proper fonts take (a lot of?) work to make happen in Clim, at least based on what I've heard. I don't disagree that you can probably make it work but that fact that it doesn't, makes me sad. This is because when I read about the design of Clim, it makes me excited. 2015-10-07T05:58:48Z phf: or come to think of it, Multi_Key will require special support in clim itself.. 2015-10-07T05:59:01Z gabriel_laddel: loke: it isn't that much work when you compare it to other gui toolkits 2015-10-07T05:59:07Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:59:07Z gabriel_laddel: loke: but sure 2015-10-07T05:59:13Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-10-07T05:59:22Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I can't disagree with wanting it to be better. 2015-10-07T05:59:36Z jackdaniel: I know at least one path to improve UX of open source packages ;) 2015-10-07T06:00:01Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Well, the other gui toolkits I've used (it feels I've used them all) that I can think of hanmdles this out-of-the-box, with the exception being Xaw :-) 2015-10-07T06:00:42Z phf: loke: this is the case of too much work too many people like beach said, something like Multi_Key support is not something you add to your app, that's something that has to be written into the framework, since the handling is left to xlib application itself. other frameworks have it written already, mcclim doesn't. another version of clim will need to have that functionality written too 2015-10-07T06:01:03Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I can't speak to the compose key, but building applications in swing is a monumental task. 2015-10-07T06:01:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:01:15Z gabriel_laddel: loke: try and build something like the CLIM listener 2015-10-07T06:01:17Z loke: phf: would it? Wouldn't it be possible to build Clim on top of, say, GTK? 2015-10-07T06:01:24Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I'll get back to you in a year or two. 2015-10-07T06:02:05Z gabriel_laddel: loke: this has already been tried - clim backents 2015-10-07T06:02:07Z gabriel_laddel: *backends 2015-10-07T06:02:24Z loke: gabriel_laddel: I've built very large applications in Swing. And while I can agree with you that it traditionally had very poor integration, at least they always had working copy&paste. But yeah, it took until 1.5 or some such version until they had fully functioning input method integration. 2015-10-07T06:02:46Z loke: gabriel_laddel: And what was the result? 2015-10-07T06:03:13Z gabriel_laddel: loke: my point is this - how hard do you think it really is to implement copy+paste on a 100k loc code base (much of this code is examples)? 2015-10-07T06:03:26Z gabriel_laddel: loke: there are always tradeoffs to be made. 2015-10-07T06:03:32Z loke: gabriel_laddel: It should be easy, no? 2015-10-07T06:03:37Z gabriel_laddel: loke: right. 2015-10-07T06:03:57Z gabriel_laddel: loke: but something presentations / accept methods is simply unthinkable in swing 2015-10-07T06:04:11Z gabriel_laddel: loke: the only reason I've not implemented is because, idk, never got around to it 2015-10-07T06:04:24Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I bind whatever needs to be copied to a var and eval it elsewhere 2015-10-07T06:04:28Z gabriel_laddel: loke: nasty hack, but eh 2015-10-07T06:04:30Z loke: gabriel_laddel: How many developers does mcclim have? 2015-10-07T06:04:38Z gabriel_laddel: loke: none. 2015-10-07T06:04:42Z phf: loke: it would be possible, but the tradeoffs will be elsewhere, since you'll have to then fight gtk conventions where they contradict clim model. tanstafl 2015-10-07T06:05:08Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Mmm... That's probably the issue :-) 2015-10-07T06:05:20Z gabriel_laddel: loke: oh, much of the dead code in CLIM is failed backends 2015-10-07T06:05:22Z loke: who developed it originally? 2015-10-07T06:05:27Z gabriel_laddel: loke: SMBX 2015-10-07T06:05:32Z loke: What is that? 2015-10-07T06:05:36Z gabriel_laddel: symbolics 2015-10-07T06:05:40Z gabriel_laddel: the lispm company 2015-10-07T06:05:55Z loke: Oh, it's from back then? That explains its positively ancient L&F :-) 2015-10-07T06:06:11Z gabriel_laddel: loke: there is a "pixie" look and feel 2015-10-07T06:06:22Z gabriel_laddel: loke: it looks better, but fails on tabs 2015-10-07T06:06:43Z loke: gabriel_laddel: How do you use it? 2015-10-07T06:08:00Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:08:05Z gabriel_laddel: loke: (clim-internals::use-pixie ) 2015-10-07T06:08:09Z gabriel_laddel: at least, that is my guess 2015-10-07T06:08:21Z gabriel_laddel: I'm not going to test it at the moment, as I can't break a few things open 2015-10-07T06:08:42Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-07T06:08:43Z loke: Hmm, seems like no one except for ribert-strandh (is that beach?) has committed to it for years. Now I understand. 2015-10-07T06:08:59Z gabriel_laddel: yes, beach is robert-strandh 2015-10-07T06:09:17Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:10:38Z loke: Since I now know more about the state of the project, I might put at least copy&paste in there :-) 2015-10-07T06:11:35Z Shinmera wishes people would offer to help on Qtools 2015-10-07T06:11:43Z loke: qtools? 2015-10-07T06:11:54Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2015-10-07T06:11:55Z akkad: qmake man... 2015-10-07T06:12:17Z smokeink: qtools is cool 2015-10-07T06:13:01Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:13:05Z moei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:13:23Z Shinmera: There isn't really anything on the Qtools roadmap aside from nicer OS X bundling to be honest, but I'd love to have several subsystems that replace some Qt functionality that I think is complete ass. 2015-10-07T06:13:24Z jackdaniel: I believe most of the open source projects has a similar wishes ;-) 2015-10-07T06:13:26Z Shinmera: Layouts, primarily. 2015-10-07T06:13:53Z jackdaniel: s/has/have/ 2015-10-07T06:14:16Z akkad: qt is nicer for non-X platforms 2015-10-07T06:14:31Z Shinmera: Its quite nice on X too. 2015-10-07T06:14:34Z Shinmera: *It's 2015-10-07T06:15:13Z akkad: Shinmera: https://gist.github.com/74816aeb0aef6df47fa8 2015-10-07T06:15:32Z Shinmera: update your quicklisp dist mang 2015-10-07T06:15:40Z akkad: at latest. 2015-10-07T06:15:57Z Shinmera: Well then retry the download 2015-10-07T06:16:14Z akkad: The most up-to-date client, version 2015-09-24, is already installed. 2015-10-07T06:16:14Z akkad: 2015-10-07T06:16:23Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:16:36Z Raimondi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T06:17:19Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:18:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:19:11Z akkad: ccl,sbcl find the libs fine, acl/lw do not. 2015-10-07T06:19:15Z Shinmera: I said /dist/, not client. 2015-10-07T06:19:22Z zbigniew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:19:25Z akkad: also did that. update-all-dists 2015-10-07T06:19:40Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:19:47Z Shinmera: ACL and LW are not supported. 2015-10-07T06:19:53Z akkad: works in ecl nice 2015-10-07T06:20:03Z Shinmera: ECL is only "accidentally" supported at the moment. 2015-10-07T06:20:07Z akkad: :D 2015-10-07T06:20:39Z Shinmera: I haven't had the time to properly test it on there so things might break randomly. 2015-10-07T06:21:27Z eli` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:21:44Z eli` left #lisp 2015-10-07T06:21:46Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:22:36Z akkad: it's good work. I need to do more in qt. 2015-10-07T06:22:39Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:24:20Z jlarocco_: where's a good place to ask questions about lispbuilder-sdl? 2015-10-07T06:24:30Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:24:45Z Shinmera: #lispgames might know more about it, but here should be fine. 2015-10-07T06:25:27Z jlarocco_: i'll try here, because this seems like I'm just doing something stupid 2015-10-07T06:26:15Z jlarocco_: I'm on OSX, and I don't get :key-down-events 2015-10-07T06:26:16Z jackdaniel: do you plan to do such tests in the future or you're going to _underline_ that support is accidential? Given not using implementation-specific extensions (or using them via portability libraries) you could support all implementations ;) 2015-10-07T06:26:49Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The main bottleneck is CommonQt, not Qtools itself. I do plan to do tests on ECL once I find the time. 2015-10-07T06:27:16Z Shinmera: Once Stas gets to rewriting CommonQt things might change again. 2015-10-07T06:28:13Z jlarocco_: graphics work, I can create windows and make OpenGL calls, and the expected graphics show up 2015-10-07T06:28:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:28:23Z Shinmera: But hey, if people want to port things to other implementations, as always, pull requests are welcome. 2015-10-07T06:28:39Z jlarocco_: but inside (sdl:with-events() I have (:key-down-event () (sdl:push-quit-event)), which should cause it to exit when a key is pressed, but nothing happens 2015-10-07T06:29:28Z Shinmera: jlarocco_: I don't remember much about SDL -- have you tried the examples? 2015-10-07T06:29:30Z jackdaniel: not that I did just that 2015-10-07T06:29:37Z akkad: Shinmera: that may be all I can do at this time :P 2015-10-07T06:29:44Z akkad: test/port 2015-10-07T06:30:04Z jlarocco_: even worse, it seems to "eat" system commands like command+w and Control+left, Control+right, etc, so if I create a full screen window, I get stuck 2015-10-07T06:30:52Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:30:53Z phf: jlarocco_: did you build the cocoa helper? 2015-10-07T06:31:36Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:32:06Z jlarocco_: yep, cocoabuilder is built and installed 2015-10-07T06:32:48Z jlarocco_: the code I'm trying: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156427 2015-10-07T06:33:06Z phf: jlarocco_: are you running via slime? 2015-10-07T06:34:09Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:34:57Z jlarocco_: yeah 2015-10-07T06:35:04Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:35:38Z phf: jlarocco_: afair the issue is that you're running on a different thread from where gui is 2015-10-07T06:35:39Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:35:53Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T06:36:00Z jlarocco_: most frustrating thing is that it IIRC, it used to work last time I tried it 2015-10-07T06:36:22Z phf: you can see if i'm right by starting the instance directly, and then copy pasting your code. it should work correctly 2015-10-07T06:36:37Z jlarocco_: which was maybe 6-8 months ago 2015-10-07T06:37:17Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:38:59Z jlarocco_: phf: yep, that's it 2015-10-07T06:39:22Z Shinmera: jlarocco_: have a look at trivial-main-thread to help with that. 2015-10-07T06:39:29Z jlarocco_: thank you! 2015-10-07T06:39:32Z Shinmera: It should allow you to hijack the main thread and run things in it. 2015-10-07T06:39:41Z phf: what shinmera said 2015-10-07T06:40:27Z Shinmera: To be honest I'm surprised you got a window up at all outside the main thread. Qt just plain crashes, if I remember correctly. 2015-10-07T06:42:29Z kristof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T06:42:44Z phf: what shinmera said, i.e. when you're running in slime wrap your main loop in trivial-main-thread's whatever 2015-10-07T06:42:55Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:43:50Z Shinmera: tmt:with-body-in-main-thread 2015-10-07T06:44:23Z phf: i actually prefer another option, which is to switch swank's communication-style to :fd-handler which runs listener on main thread 2015-10-07T06:44:47Z Shinmera: phf: Well that won't work on CCL, which keeps the main thread to itself. 2015-10-07T06:45:07Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:47:43Z phf: Shinmera: true, though there's single-threaded-ccl from qitab repo. i basically only use tmt trick when hacking sdl from inside clozure cl ide, the other one is way more convenient 2015-10-07T06:48:04Z phf: for gamedev anyway 2015-10-07T06:48:16Z Shinmera: Well you can tell it to not block and get your REPL back 2015-10-07T06:48:43Z Shinmera: (with-body-in-main-thread (:blocking NIL) ..) 2015-10-07T06:51:04Z Shinmera: The trouble with the blocking variant is more when you want to interrupt, but I think I handled that. 2015-10-07T06:51:09Z phf: doesn't work as expected with clozure cl's ide (or i couldn't figure out how) since sdl eats the key events that go to the entire app, even if you select some other window 2015-10-07T06:51:19Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-10-07T06:51:48Z Shinmera: Right, having an external process helps in any case. 2015-10-07T06:55:07Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T06:55:51Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-07T06:56:30Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T06:57:23Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:00:31Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:00:50Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:02:37Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:03:12Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:03:19Z maveneagle quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T07:03:31Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:06:18Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T07:06:36Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:06:37Z gabot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T07:06:48Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:07:07Z akkad: beach left. 2015-10-07T07:07:25Z Shinmera: He usually does on weekdays. 2015-10-07T07:09:01Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:09:31Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:10:35Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-07T07:11:00Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:13:09Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:13:35Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-07T07:13:37Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T07:14:14Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:15:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:18:23Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:18:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:19:23Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T07:22:34Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:23:18Z gabot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T07:25:45Z akkad: l 2015-10-07T07:25:59Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T07:26:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:27:53Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:29:36Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:33:25Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:35:05Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:35:23Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:35:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:35:54Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:37:21Z xificurC_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:37:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:39:26Z gabriel_laddel: for the eternal logs - it appears most of the stuff in cffi-unix has been moved into osicat 2015-10-07T07:39:33Z gabriel_laddel: and osicat-posix 2015-10-07T07:39:41Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-07T07:40:19Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:40:30Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:40:46Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:46:08Z EXID123 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:46:19Z akkad: or iolib-fix-posix-which-is-broken-so-I-wrote-a-c-lib-that-is-not-portable 2015-10-07T07:46:51Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:47:06Z EXID123_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T07:47:20Z gabriel_laddel: akkad: hrm. 2015-10-07T07:50:10Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:51:16Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T07:52:15Z jackdaniel: I wonder - since iolib requires gcc anyways (for grovelling things) why can't it just ship with libfixposix? 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2015-10-07T08:34:46Z jackdaniel: loke: fe[nl]ix 2015-10-07T08:35:09Z ralt: Stelian Ionescu, according to the asd 2015-10-07T08:35:11Z loke: jackdaniel: Well, he's here sometimes, so let's ask him when he shows up next? 2015-10-07T08:39:01Z jackdaniel: loke: I think the better question would be if he'd accept such PR and find a person who will code it. He has a lot on his plate ;) 2015-10-07T08:39:33Z loke: jackdaniel: Yeah, but I'm not going to do any development before I know that he'll accept it 2015-10-07T08:40:25Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:40:50Z jackdaniel: that's why we should ask if he'll accept it, not why iolib doesn't have such functionality :p I have not time to grok on the asdf and C compilation though 2015-10-07T08:42:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T08:43:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-07T08:43:38Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T08:46:03Z loke: jackdaniel: Well, that's a reasonable question to ask too. 2015-10-07T08:46:15Z loke: jackdaniel: I mean, he might have thought about it and dismissed the idea for valid reasons. 2015-10-07T08:46:27Z jackdaniel: yeah 2015-10-07T08:47:16Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ↑ 2015-10-07T08:47:54Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:48:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:51:18Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:52:50Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-10-07T08:55:25Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-07T08:56:03Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:56:10Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T08:57:09Z Coqy_attitude is now known as TheDuckEllington 2015-10-07T08:58:31Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T08:58:34Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Are they stripped of titles and such? 2015-10-07T14:08:58Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:09:06Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:10:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:10:39Z oGMo: count yourself lucky there are examples at all? 2015-10-07T14:10:54Z oGMo: or is there a missing "not" 2015-10-07T14:10:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:12:06Z ecraven: It seems this was a sarcastic remark 2015-10-07T14:12:07Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:12:13Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:13:19Z loke`: chrnybo: Probably. 2015-10-07T14:14:21Z oGMo: ah, i'm still half awake 2015-10-07T14:15:13Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:15:55Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:16:53Z chrnybo: Wouldn't https://github.com/fare/fare-csv be just as attrictive if there was a sample slurp semicolon-separated file snippet? Would there be a hidden cost associated with providing such a sample? 2015-10-07T14:17:06Z chrnybo: *attractive 2015-10-07T14:19:55Z Shinmera: The cost is time and patience. 2015-10-07T14:19:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:20:00Z loke`: chrnybo: Well, the cost is probably extra effort on Fare's part. I'm sur ehe'll be happy to accept a documentation patch. 2015-10-07T14:20:54Z nyef: It's not like it's any more complicated than binding a single variable around calls to READ-CSV-LINE. 2015-10-07T14:22:20Z nyef: (I have to deal with someone who fondly imagines that #\| is a comma... And that Chinese characters can be represented in Mac OS Roman.) 2015-10-07T14:22:25Z chrnybo: nyef: Yup, bind fare-csv::*separator* to a character and call read-csv-line, -stream or -file. 2015-10-07T14:22:59Z ss1891 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:25:25Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T14:25:42Z loke`: nyef: Do people use macos roman these days? 2015-10-07T14:27:24Z nyef: loke`: Apparently. I also occasionally get files in CP437. 2015-10-07T14:27:33Z chrnybo: loke`: Safari in El Capitan offers "Western (Mac OS Roman)" as a decoding option in the menubar. 2015-10-07T14:27:37Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T14:28:09Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:28:18Z loke`: chrnybo: Well, it also offers a bunch of others no one are using :-) 2015-10-07T14:28:44Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:30:49Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:30:56Z chrnybo: Anyhow, now that you've given me space to vent, what samples would be natural to show for a csv library? My usecase is only "read csv you just made with defaults from Numbers.app or Excel, producing a list of lists." Anything else? 2015-10-07T14:30:59Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:32:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:37:48Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:38:29Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:39:26Z chrnybo: https://github.com/chrnybo/fare-csv/commit/54643ad379fac385e62b6fa970767566c1058aaf 2015-10-07T14:40:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:41:10Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:42:41Z Ethan-_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:43:00Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:43:13Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:44:56Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:45:35Z chrnybo: loke`: PR submitted. 2015-10-07T14:46:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:46:43Z Walex2 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:47:19Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:47:31Z anthraci_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:49:00Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:49:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:49:55Z anthracite quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:49:56Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:49:56Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T14:49:56Z zacts quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T14:49:57Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:49:57Z Uptime quit (Quit: cya) 2015-10-07T14:49:57Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:49:57Z White_Flame quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-07T14:49:58Z Firedancer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:49:58Z lvh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T14:49:58Z ym joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:49:58Z Walex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T14:49:58Z Eq joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:50:20Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-07T14:50:37Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:50:46Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:51:21Z zacts` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:51:36Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:51:50Z lvh joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:52:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:55:29Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T14:55:48Z nyon quit (Quit: nyan) 2015-10-07T14:55:56Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T14:57:53Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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You would need (compile 'f '(defun f () …)) ; hence it might be easier to (compile-file "f.lisp"). 2015-10-07T15:41:30Z pjb: loz: sorry, you meant WITH debug flag: (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0) (safety 3))) 2015-10-07T15:41:34Z emaczen: pjb: Fine, let me elaborate. 2015-10-07T15:41:53Z pjb: loz: (since that's what I have in my rc file I thought you wanted to switch it off) 3 = on, 0 = off. 2015-10-07T15:42:11Z pjb: 2 = on but not so much, and 1 = off but not so much. 2015-10-07T15:42:12Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T15:42:43Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-07T15:43:24Z pjb: loz: notice, if it's a recursive functions you might want to (declaim (not-inline f)) before compiling it, to ensure that TCO is avoided. 2015-10-07T15:43:30Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T15:43:51Z loz: pjb: maybe this is not what I want 2015-10-07T15:44:15Z pjb: Hence "might". 2015-10-07T15:44:17Z emaczen: I asked about commonlisp GUIs and someone said something like "I just use HTML these days, it is close enough to CLIM." My interpretation was that the comment was saying that HTML is very similar to CLIM. 2015-10-07T15:44:25Z loz: I'm trying to debug drakma request, but I can't see frames it backtrace 2015-10-07T15:44:37Z loz: in backtrace* 2015-10-07T15:44:44Z pjb: emaczen: no. He wanted to say that it allows him to write GUIs. 2015-10-07T15:44:49Z pjb: without too much pain. 2015-10-07T15:44:58Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T15:45:16Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-07T15:45:21Z pjb: emaczen: notice that there are tools to convert web apps (using HTML GUI), into native applications, for either handheld systems or desktop systems. 2015-10-07T15:46:13Z emaczen: I just quickloaded clim-examples, how do I "see" them? Is there some convention of starting CL programs that I am unaware of? For example, I asked a few weeks ago about climacs, which you can start as (climacs:climacs) 2015-10-07T15:46:19Z pjb: emaczen: check out http://ceramic.github.io/ 2015-10-07T15:46:42Z pjb: emaczen: there's no convention. 2015-10-07T15:46:51Z loz: pjb: the function has declare in it =\ 2015-10-07T15:46:55Z pjb: But you might often find this pattern of (x:x) or (x:main). 2015-10-07T15:47:00Z pjb: loz: then remove it. 2015-10-07T15:47:19Z pjb: loz: optimize declarations should NEVER be put in code or libraries. 2015-10-07T15:47:27Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-07T15:47:31Z pjb: loz: this should be up to the final user to decide how he wants to compile all the code. 2015-10-07T15:48:46Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-07T15:49:36Z pjb: emaczen: of course, the only problem with writing the UI in HTML5, is that you have write javascript code (even with parenscript, it's "unnatural") and use javascript libraries. 2015-10-07T15:49:36Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T15:52:17Z emaczen: Yes, I have experienced this... 2015-10-07T15:55:10Z emaczen: Does anybody know how to start clim-examples? 2015-10-07T15:56:44Z DeadTrickster: loke`, what is license for cl-rabbit? 2015-10-07T15:57:37Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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But I'm considering going with something more mass-accepted/maintained/developed like Jekyll out of "set it and forget it" reasons. 2015-10-07T16:03:07Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:03:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-07T16:03:37Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:11:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T16:12:38Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T16:13:11Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-07T16:13:12Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:13:37Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:13:59Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:14:51Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T16:15:14Z oGMo: jsgrant: no, but my impression was the same. jekyll worked pretty well, and coleslaw looks like that for CL, so seems worth giving a shot. 2015-10-07T16:16:38Z oGMo: i remember more bitrot with ruby, but i don't know if that's still the case .. but set-it-and-forget-it seems more guaranteed with CL, as well 2015-10-07T16:17:50Z ferada: jsgrant: coleslaw is nice and it's maintained 2015-10-07T16:20:02Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:20:19Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:21:30Z zwdr: I wrote a personal wiki software, but getting text into it is a hassle :s 2015-10-07T16:21:38Z zwdr: most of my time is spent coding instead 2015-10-07T16:22:06Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:22:35Z jsgrant might see if he can get Scriba working in Coleslaw with a trivialish amount of work. I really like that @something syntax, for the most part. 2015-10-07T16:26:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:26:04Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:27:54Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:29:19Z blaaa joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:30:47Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:32:23Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:34:44Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:35:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:37:22Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T16:40:26Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:41:26Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-07T16:43:10Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:43:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:45:21Z TheDuckEllington joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:47:12Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T16:48:03Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:48:09Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:48:42Z phoe6 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T16:49:14Z reb`: pjb: regarding optimization declarations ... 2015-10-07T16:50:32Z reb`: pjb: Some code really wants to be compiled with high optimization. Wouldn't it make sense for a library to do that by default, but allow the user to override for debugging? 2015-10-07T16:50:52Z pjb: reb`: no. 2015-10-07T16:51:05Z pjb: The problem with that is that libraries never wrap this code in highly checked API functions. 2015-10-07T16:51:15Z rme left #lisp 2015-10-07T16:51:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:51:46Z reb`: Isn't that a problem with the way the library is written? 2015-10-07T16:51:52Z Shinmera: reb`: On SBCL you can use SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY to force a minimum level for the various declarations. 2015-10-07T16:51:55Z pjb: Also, it's somewhat delicate to check all the cases (types) so that your highly optimized code will never be called to an undefined behavior. 2015-10-07T16:52:21Z pjb: reb`: Yes, that's the point: there are bugs in all libraries, and all libraries can be called with erronous parameters. 2015-10-07T16:52:26Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-10-07T16:52:59Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:53:13Z pjb: reb`: for example, think about how you could write an exhaustive typecase switching on the different floating point types. 2015-10-07T16:53:34Z pjb: reb`: hint: there may be any number of different floating point types between 1 and 4 in a given implementation. 2015-10-07T16:53:42Z reb`: Thankfully, I've not written a library function that takes a float point parameter. 2015-10-07T16:54:17Z pjb: reb`: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:float-typecase 2015-10-07T16:55:33Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T16:56:52Z reb`: Suppose I write a compression or hashing library that needs high optimization to run fast, but include no optimization declarations. Can a user of the library conveniently optimize it when loading it with ASDF? 2015-10-07T16:58:04Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T16:58:56Z pjb: reb`: yes. 2015-10-07T16:59:14Z pjb: He just have to declaim the high optimization levels and recompile the library. 2015-10-07T16:59:35Z pjb: reb`: perhaps you could say it's not hyper convenient, but then complain with Fare. 2015-10-07T17:00:21Z pjb: reb`: in my scripts to generate executables, I usually start with a rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ before loading dependencies. 2015-10-07T17:00:26Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T17:00:55Z zeroXzero quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:01:12Z radioninja_work quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:01:23Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:01:53Z reb`: Lack of declarations in the library also means the library as a whole gets the same level of optimization. It might be appropriate for some code to be highly optimized, while for other code it doesn't matter. 2015-10-07T17:04:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:04:22Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-07T17:04:24Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:04:51Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:05:27Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T17:08:20Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:08:37Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:09:02Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:09:22Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:11:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:12:25Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:13:07Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:13:29Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:14:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:15:57Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:16:33Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:16:45Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:17:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:17:33Z blaaa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:22:26Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T17:23:02Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:23:56Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:25:54Z ggole quit 2015-10-07T17:29:09Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:30:41Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:30:48Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:30:50Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T17:35:56Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:39:30Z drmeister: Is there a way in emacs to recursively search down a directory hierarchy for files that have file names like Clasp* 2015-10-07T17:40:03Z drmeister: Googling for "emacs" "find" "file" is not very helpful 2015-10-07T17:40:37Z drmeister: M-x find-name-dired 2015-10-07T17:44:04Z UtkarshRay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T17:44:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:45:21Z shka: drmeister: you know about git grep? 2015-10-07T17:46:06Z shka: it is for different task, though 2015-10-07T17:46:13Z drmeister: No 2015-10-07T17:46:48Z shka: try vc-git-grep 2015-10-07T17:46:57Z shka: you will find it usefull 2015-10-07T17:48:07Z drmeister: Got it - thanks 2015-10-07T17:48:45Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:51:02Z drmeister: Argh - got to [ 100%] building SFML then it crapped out because it needs to also link to libgmp. 2015-10-07T17:51:34Z drmeister: I don't like what I'm having to do to get this to build and link. Editing cmake macros and configuration files across a dozen different directories. 2015-10-07T17:51:42Z drmeister: Well (1) make it work (2) make it pretty 2015-10-07T17:52:15Z drmeister: I'm putting my name in everywhere that I'm editing so I can find all the changes. I guess I could use git diff as well. 2015-10-07T17:52:54Z drmeister: Woah - something built. 2015-10-07T17:53:04Z drmeister: What do I do with it? 2015-10-07T17:53:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KQVvKQm5/ 2015-10-07T17:53:21Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T17:53:36Z drmeister: Let's see if flash- left some sample code lying around 2015-10-07T17:53:38Z shka: drmeister: git blame is really good here 2015-10-07T17:53:48Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:55:01Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-07T17:56:11Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T17:56:19Z shka: since you can simply check who and why edited specific code line 2015-10-07T17:56:48Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-07T17:59:47Z White_Flame: emaczen: the biggest lack of HTML compared to CLIM is that there's no infrastructure to print out object presentations. However, that facility can be built on top of HTML 2015-10-07T18:00:13Z White_Flame: as far as the geometry, transforms, layout, refreshing, etc, HTML has got pretty much everything covered, but sometimes from a different angle 2015-10-07T18:00:50Z White_Flame: for instance, CLIM has path objects and such, while in HTML you'd draw a path on a canvas in a more immediate mode and declare it as a clipping region or graphic 2015-10-07T18:02:18Z White_Flame: if you want to get really fancy in complex interactions & display layering between graphics items and object presentations, CLIM can wrangle further than HTML because the whole thing in CLIM is basically a canvas 2015-10-07T18:02:55Z White_Flame: whereas in HTML if you start drawing things to a canvas instead of a DOM, mouseovers and such are no longer available 2015-10-07T18:04:24Z shka: i'm amazed that you are actually comparing toolkit with html 2015-10-07T18:04:57Z White_Flame: I haven't dealt much with what's possible with output recording, though, and potentially other clim features, moreso on the general display & interactivity level 2015-10-07T18:05:11Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T18:05:28Z White_Flame: shka: isn't HTML an interactive UI toolkit? 2015-10-07T18:05:44Z White_Flame: (well, s/HTML/dynamic DOM/ 2015-10-07T18:05:45Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:05:46Z White_Flame: ) 2015-10-07T18:06:05Z shka: dunno 2015-10-07T18:06:14Z shka: i never thinked about it as a toolkit 2015-10-07T18:06:53Z shka: but it kinda makes sense 2015-10-07T18:06:59Z shka: at high level 2015-10-07T18:08:46Z dwchandler: it's not a toolkit. it's a loose collection of stuff of varying design and implementation quality that can be made to do interesting things through a pretty bad scripting language that's the only viable method because of historical accidents 2015-10-07T18:10:03Z dwchandler: thanks to tireless work of some pretty bright people there are decent options for working in that space (compared to what used to exist), but it's still to be avoided unless you *need* to be there 2015-10-07T18:10:08Z dwchandler: IMHO ;-) 2015-10-07T18:11:32Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:12:05Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:12:43Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:13:12Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:16:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:16:04Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:17:39Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:18:14Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:19:59Z mprelude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:24:13Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:25:27Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:26:15Z jlarocco_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:26:43Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:26:55Z warweasle` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:28:13Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:29:16Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:29:17Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:29:51Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:30:18Z warweasle` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:30:19Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:30:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:30:59Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:31:00Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:31:09Z eak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:31:12Z radioninja quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:31:38Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks that Javascript is just fine, for something that's not Lisp 2015-10-07T18:32:00Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:33:01Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:33:38Z dwchandler: javascript could be worse, and it's gotten better over the years. but who would pick it if it weren't required? 2015-10-07T18:35:32Z failproofshark: many start ups it hink 2015-10-07T18:36:15Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:37:20Z eak joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:37:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I really like Javascript, as a language, despite it's little quirks 2015-10-07T18:38:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Prototype-based OOP + Lexical closures = a nice little langly 2015-10-07T18:38:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/langly/language/ 2015-10-07T18:38:34Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:39:45Z dwchandler: you like it better than, say, Io? 2015-10-07T18:39:50Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T18:39:56Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:40:06Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:40:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: dwchandler: I haven't used Io much, but I think I might like it better 2015-10-07T18:41:50Z pjb: reb`: optimizations are implementation dependent. Depending on optimizations is not conforming. 2015-10-07T18:42:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish the docs for embedding Io, were better . . . but I suppose this is pretty off-topic now. 2015-10-07T18:42:27Z nzambe quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-07T18:43:02Z dwchandler: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, pretty OT at this point ;) 2015-10-07T18:44:17Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T18:44:33Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:44:54Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-07T18:48:51Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:53:19Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:54:54Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-07T18:57:50Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:00:39Z reb`: pjb: Yes, I know. A library should not depend on optimizations to work. 2015-10-07T19:00:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:01:23Z profess joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:01:39Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:02:31Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T19:02:33Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:06:25Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:07:46Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:07:53Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:08:39Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:09:37Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:10:25Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:13:50Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:13:57Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:18:03Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-07T19:19:33Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:22:09Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T19:22:44Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:23:07Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:23:47Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T19:24:37Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:24:58Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:25:10Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:25:22Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:25:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:25:51Z H4ns quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T19:26:17Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:26:17Z Shinmera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T19:27:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:27:19Z xificurC_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:27:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:28:19Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:30:56Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T19:31:39Z clique left #lisp 2015-10-07T19:32:28Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:33:40Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:35:55Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T19:37:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:37:50Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T19:38:34Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T19:44:27Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:46:15Z emaczen: White_Flame: if you use the SVG API then your "objects" will respond to events 2015-10-07T19:47:08Z djinni`_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:47:09Z euphoriaa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:47:09Z o`connor quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:47:10Z o`connor joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:47:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T19:47:47Z emaczen: Can someone explain to me why (clim-demo:gadget-test) looks like it is from 1998? I'm not trying to be rude here or anything, I just don't know the history of UI toolkits. 2015-10-07T19:47:57Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T19:48:05Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:48:05Z euphoriaa quit (Changing host) 2015-10-07T19:48:05Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:48:21Z djinni` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:48:38Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:50:31Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T19:53:34Z oGMo: emaczen: because that was futuristic in 1993? ;) 2015-10-07T19:53:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-07T19:57:09Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:01:14Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:02:14Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:02:43Z pjb: emaczen: the look is fashion, and fashion is cyclic. It is actually looking like it's 2038. 2015-10-07T20:03:05Z pjb: emaczen: I should have a look at Garnet. 2015-10-07T20:03:08Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:04:45Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:05:28Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2015-10-07T20:06:33Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:08:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:09:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:09:14Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:10:50Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:12:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:13:43Z White_Flame: emaczen: good point about SVG. I've not used it in a browser yet 2015-10-07T20:18:10Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:20:10Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:20:15Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:20:24Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:21:29Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:22:54Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-07T20:23:12Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:23:33Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:23:47Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:26:35Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:34:18Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:34:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:36:08Z badkins quit 2015-10-07T20:36:30Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:36:53Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T20:37:00Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:39:32Z varjagg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T20:40:03Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:40:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:40:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T20:42:30Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:43:03Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-07T20:43:04Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:43:58Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:44:26Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T20:45:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:46:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:47:40Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:52:03Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:52:40Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T20:54:58Z akkad: adobe use to have an svg plugin 2015-10-07T20:55:18Z spacerella quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-07T20:56:06Z emaczen: pjb: Garnet? 2015-10-07T20:56:32Z emaczen: oGMo: Lol 2015-10-07T20:57:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:57:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T20:57:50Z arthurix joined #lisp 2015-10-07T20:58:42Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:00:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:02:18Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-07T21:02:22Z PuercoPop: One can use SVG outside the browser as well. This is a good proof of concept: applicability does not limits 2015-10-07T21:02:25Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/orthecreedence/ghostie 2015-10-07T21:02:46Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:03:09Z PuercoPop: (ignore after the :, wrong copy-paste) 2015-10-07T21:03:58Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:07:10Z emaczen: I thought setf returned its second argument? 2015-10-07T21:07:30Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T21:07:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:07:32Z emaczen: ^^ I thought this was always the case. 2015-10-07T21:09:21Z Shinmera: (defun (setf foo) (v) 1) (setf (foo) 0) => 1 2015-10-07T21:10:26Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T21:11:10Z nyef: Shinmera: Technically, that violates the contract for SETF functions. 2015-10-07T21:11:23Z Shinmera: Yeah but practically it can happen. 2015-10-07T21:11:27Z nyef: Sure. 2015-10-07T21:12:24Z nyef: And there's worse out there: CLIM specifies that certain SETF operations fire off a request to the host display server, and they don't actually have an effect on the value of the PLACE until the display server reports back that the change has been made on its side. 2015-10-07T21:12:28Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:12:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:12:42Z Shinmera: Sounds like JS callback hell. 2015-10-07T21:13:00Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:13:21Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-07T21:14:14Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:14:46Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:15:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T21:17:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T21:24:10Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:24:44Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T21:25:21Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:25:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T21:27:32Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:29:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T21:34:59Z arthurix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:35:06Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-07T21:35:20Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:35:54Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:36:47Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T21:36:56Z pjb: minion: garnet 2015-10-07T21:36:57Z minion: garnet: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/garnet 2015-10-07T21:37:28Z pjb: emaczen: while minion doesn't find any definition, this page exists and you should visit it. 2015-10-07T21:41:12Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T21:43:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-07T21:48:41Z emaczen: pjb: What does Garnet look like? 2015-10-07T21:48:53Z emaczen: I like the idea of constraints 2015-10-07T21:50:16Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:50:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T21:52:45Z emaczen: Is anybody using CLIM and could point me to some software that I can look at? 2015-10-07T21:53:02Z oleo: i am using clim 2015-10-07T21:53:18Z oleo: well, many don't tho.... 2015-10-07T21:53:29Z emaczen: oleo: Can you show me anything you are making? 2015-10-07T21:53:38Z oleo: i have a github repo 2015-10-07T21:53:51Z oleo: name leventguel 2015-10-07T21:54:00Z oleo: there i have some codes..... 2015-10-07T21:54:06Z oleo: you can try it.... 2015-10-07T21:54:24Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T21:54:26Z emaczen: oleo: Thanks! 2015-10-07T21:54:33Z emaczen: I'll probably check it out tonight though. 2015-10-07T21:54:39Z oleo: i did some changes, little ones only.... 2015-10-07T21:55:16Z oleo: tho i have running via mcclim: an irc client, an editor (climacs), and an repl (listener) 2015-10-07T21:55:40Z oleo: there are other apps, but you have to customize and change stuff in order to get them running..... 2015-10-07T21:55:47Z emaczen: I'm guessing the repo is "mcclim-stuff" 2015-10-07T21:55:58Z oleo: yes 2015-10-07T21:56:54Z oleo: there's from someone else a simple spreadsheet app too, haven't tried it..... 2015-10-07T21:57:03Z oleo: and if you search for you find many other apps..... 2015-10-07T21:57:06Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-07T21:57:31Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-07T21:57:32Z oleo: like some games and calenders etc..... 2015-10-07T21:57:48Z PuercoPop: emaczen: besides the demos, There is this example: https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime 2015-10-07T21:59:30Z oleo: emaczen: have a look at my init files too..... otherwise you may miss some stuff...... 2015-10-07T22:00:43Z oleo: i found even electronics related stuff.... 2015-10-07T22:00:54Z oleo: for mcclim..... 2015-10-07T22:01:03Z emaczen: Thanks, I'll have to look at these tonight as well. 2015-10-07T22:01:12Z oleo: ok 2015-10-07T22:01:33Z oleo: hmm, now i remember i haven't uploaded my newest files yet..... 2015-10-07T22:01:46Z oleo: anyway, i'll do that soon too i think..... 2015-10-07T22:01:57Z oleo: btw, my files are never complete..... 2015-10-07T22:02:11Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T22:02:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:02:48Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:02:51Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:03:12Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:03:25Z oleo: by the way seems i have used y-combinator even once without knowing it..... 2015-10-07T22:03:26Z oleo: lol 2015-10-07T22:03:55Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-07T22:05:45Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T22:05:54Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:07:39Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-07T22:09:11Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:09:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T22:10:15Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:10:57Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:13:53Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-07T22:15:34Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:16:00Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:16:53Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:16:57Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:17:01Z dennis_ joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:17:29Z dennis_: Is there any way to create methods based on the types of an &rest argument? 2015-10-07T22:17:31Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T22:17:43Z Bike: no, you can only specialize on required arguments. 2015-10-07T22:17:51Z dennis_: so there is no way? 2015-10-07T22:18:01Z dennis_: no workaround? 2015-10-07T22:18:07Z Bike: you might want to make an auxiliary function t hat takes a &rest argument, and passes something or another to a generic function. 2015-10-07T22:18:38Z dennis_: I could... 2015-10-07T22:19:15Z dennis_: that is really limiting 2015-10-07T22:19:28Z Bike: what are you trying to do? 2015-10-07T22:19:54Z dennis_: I'm trying to write a library that allows me to define methods on already-defined functions 2015-10-07T22:20:06Z dennis_: for example, I could redefine + to add numbers and concatenate strings 2015-10-07T22:20:59Z Bike: So you want to define, say, a "+" method that works "on strings"? 2015-10-07T22:21:27Z dennis_: that was just an example 2015-10-07T22:21:43Z Bike: well, yes. 2015-10-07T22:21:43Z dennis_: I want to be able to define methods on already defined functions 2015-10-07T22:21:59Z dennis_: that is something sorely lacking imho 2015-10-07T22:22:13Z Bike: that just means defining your own generic functions with the same names. there's already at least one library that does that for standard CL functions. 2015-10-07T22:22:28Z dennis_: could you link me? 2015-10-07T22:22:46Z Bike: I don't remember what it's called, sorry. 2015-10-07T22:22:52Z Bike: Anyway, I'm not sure what it has to do with &rest, directly. 2015-10-07T22:23:00Z dennis_: do you know what I could google? 2015-10-07T22:23:03Z Bike: You'd have to define what (+ 4 "foo") does, and such. 2015-10-07T22:23:05Z dennis_: ive looked around quite a bit 2015-10-07T22:23:13Z c74d3a quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:23:17Z dennis_: I havent found anything 2015-10-07T22:24:59Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:25:49Z Bike: here's a partial one http://quickdocs.org/cl-generic-arithmetic/ 2015-10-07T22:26:25Z Bike: it actually has an example of how &rest is dealt with. it is complicated. 2015-10-07T22:27:06Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:28:19Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T22:30:46Z eazar001 is now known as eazar001_carnage 2015-10-07T22:33:32Z eazar001_carnage is now known as eazar001 2015-10-07T22:33:50Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T22:34:28Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:34:58Z gabot joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:39:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:41:32Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T22:45:57Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-07T22:47:28Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:48:31Z atgnag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-07T22:49:08Z dennis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T22:52:24Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-10-07T22:52:52Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-07T22:53:22Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:00:37Z p_l: ponders making a fun project of "lispify all the things" for ELS2016 2015-10-07T23:01:36Z p_l: including control over live streaming 2015-10-07T23:03:56Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:04:13Z jocuman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T23:05:27Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:06:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:06:38Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:11:06Z pillton: Morning all. 2015-10-07T23:11:23Z emaczen: morning pillton 2015-10-07T23:11:49Z emaczen: Can typespecifiers be used similarly to variants? 2015-10-07T23:13:05Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:13:18Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T23:14:09Z lisper29 left #lisp 2015-10-07T23:16:53Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:17:40Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-07T23:20:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:20:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:21:07Z pjb: emaczen: clhs or 2015-10-07T23:22:48Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:23:26Z mprelude quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:24:50Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:25:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T23:27:19Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:28:44Z emaczen: pjb: cool! 2015-10-07T23:29:31Z emaczen: Now the real question then is: Can I modify the type of an existing class to include nil? 2015-10-07T23:29:41Z emaczen: I want: (deftype node (or nil node)) 2015-10-07T23:30:03Z emaczen: where node is an existing class -- maybe you know a better facility as part of a defclass form. 2015-10-07T23:30:47Z pillton: The type nil is a subtype of all types. 2015-10-07T23:31:19Z pillton: The expansion of a type must terminate. 2015-10-07T23:32:47Z pillton: The object NIL is of type NULL. 2015-10-07T23:34:03Z pillton: dennis_: I have a library for doing that. 2015-10-07T23:35:05Z pillton: I don't have it at work though. I intend to release it. 2015-10-07T23:35:39Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:35:54Z pillton realises dennis_ is gone. 2015-10-07T23:36:01Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:36:05Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:37:16Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:38:39Z emaczen: pillton: Ahhh I see. 2015-10-07T23:39:16Z emaczen: When used, where are specifiers typically used? 2015-10-07T23:39:36Z pillton: Where or when? 2015-10-07T23:39:47Z jlarocco_2 joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:39:52Z pillton: Where is LET, LOCALLY, FLET and so on. 2015-10-07T23:39:56Z emaczen: If you use typespecifiers, when and where do you use them? 2015-10-07T23:40:06Z pillton: clhs declare 2015-10-07T23:40:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 2015-10-07T23:40:13Z pillton: clhs declaim 2015-10-07T23:40:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 2015-10-07T23:40:16Z pillton: clhs proclaim 2015-10-07T23:40:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm 2015-10-07T23:40:31Z emaczen: pillton: So a mix of static type checking and optimization then? 2015-10-07T23:41:01Z pillton: An implementation isn't required to do static type checking. 2015-10-07T23:41:16Z emaczen: Yes, but SBCL will -- right? 2015-10-07T23:41:32Z pillton: Yes. 2015-10-07T23:42:06Z pillton: ..but it still checks the type at runtime though. 2015-10-07T23:43:40Z pillton: If it can prove that an object is of a particular type then it will optimize accordingly. 2015-10-07T23:44:32Z emaczen: pillton: Doesn't SBCL issue warnings when you violate type specifiers though? 2015-10-07T23:44:42Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:44:50Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:45:14Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:45:58Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T23:47:37Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-07T23:49:06Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-07T23:49:39Z dkcl` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:52:33Z pillton: Yeah, but the runtime checks are still there for scenarios where you call functions from outside the compilation unit e.g. the REPL. 2015-10-07T23:53:02Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:53:29Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T23:53:36Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:53:43Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:53:59Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:54:31Z pjb: emaczen: some people use the convention of naming classes with brackets: Then you could (deftype node () (or null )) (assert (typep nil 'node)) (assert (typep (make-instance ') 'node)) 2015-10-07T23:55:20Z Eq is now known as Uptime 2015-10-07T23:55:25Z pjb: (defgeneric walk (node) (:method ((node null)) 'done) (:method ((node )) (mapcar (function walk) (children node)))) 2015-10-07T23:55:51Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-07T23:56:18Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:58:01Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:58:14Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-10-07T23:58:19Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-07T23:59:02Z pillton: emaczen: Optimize declarations can muddy the water too. 2015-10-08T00:03:34Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T00:03:59Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T00:06:10Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Now that you mention it, it looks good. 2015-10-08T02:53:35Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-08T02:53:58Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T02:57:55Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T02:58:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:02:30Z nell joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:03:48Z derrida joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:04:46Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:05:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:09:10Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:09:34Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:10:25Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:12:05Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-08T03:12:34Z nell joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:13:02Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:17:29Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-08T03:18:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:20:30Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:26:06Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T03:30:26Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:32:00Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T03:33:51Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:35:15Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:46:34Z nell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T03:49:45Z eliasbagley joined #lisp 2015-10-08T03:53:45Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:55:23Z eliasbagley quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T03:59:58Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:00:09Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-08T04:00:36Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-08T04:01:28Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:01:37Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:02:06Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:02:39Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:02:54Z Colleen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T04:03:17Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:03:24Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:04:05Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:04:29Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:04:45Z Colleen__ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:05:28Z Colleen_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-08T04:05:56Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:05:56Z pinterface quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:06:17Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:06:41Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:07:18Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:07:53Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-08T04:08:07Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:08:15Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-08T04:08:24Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:08:30Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-08T04:08:47Z phadthai: hello 2015-10-08T04:09:01Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:09:01Z tifa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:09:54Z tifa joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:10:28Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:11:05Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:12:18Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:12:24Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:20:49Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:23:25Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-08T04:23:51Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:27:52Z keen___________6 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:28:25Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-08T04:28:36Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:28:40Z keen___________5 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:30:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:32:17Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T04:32:21Z jfe_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:32:48Z akkad: hi beach. you still work on climacs? 2015-10-08T04:33:15Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:34:00Z jfe_: is ecl suitable for soft real-time systems? 2015-10-08T04:34:11Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T04:34:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:35:07Z akkad: jfe_ srs systems yes 2015-10-08T04:36:25Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:40:02Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:40:15Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:40:59Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:40:59Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T04:41:33Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:43:37Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T04:53:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-08T04:53:07Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-08T04:53:59Z pillton: nyef: Sorry about yesterday. 2015-10-08T04:55:41Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T04:56:26Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T04:58:54Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T04:59:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T05:01:58Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-08T05:04:16Z kvsari joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:04:53Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T05:05:08Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:10:29Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:13:46Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T05:19:00Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:19:01Z nell joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:19:30Z MrWoohoo quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-08T05:19:56Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T05:26:50Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T05:32:11Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-08T05:32:33Z beach: pillton: What about yesterday? 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(GDM seems to produce such Xauthority files.) 2015-10-08T13:41:10Z Alfr: It chokes on ``(= number display)'' in get-best-authorization, where number is NIL obtained from read-xauth-entry. 2015-10-08T13:42:01Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:43:22Z Jaglor joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:43:35Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-08T13:44:39Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-08T13:45:23Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:45:56Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T13:46:03Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:46:03Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-08T13:46:03Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:46:13Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:46:47Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-08T13:47:14Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-08T13:49:21Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It's kind of awful that cl-oauth depends on hunchentoot when you might want to just use it as a client. 2015-10-08T15:39:24Z felideon quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2015-10-08T15:39:26Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T15:39:35Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-08T15:40:56Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:42:50Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:44:44Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:46:59Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-10-08T15:48:41Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:48:41Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T15:48:45Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:49:50Z dkcl`` joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:51:55Z dkcl`` is now known as dkcl 2015-10-08T15:52:01Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-10-08T15:52:01Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T15:52:15Z findiggl` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T15:52:27Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-08T16:23:15Z dlowe: cl-twitter 2015-10-08T16:23:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:23:19Z Shinmera: Just us Chirp :) 2015-10-08T16:23:28Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/chirp/ 2015-10-08T16:23:46Z dlowe: I'm not interested in using Chirp because my code now depends on cl-twitter. 2015-10-08T16:23:58Z Shinmera: Ah well. 2015-10-08T16:24:02Z dlowe: and if you tell me to rewrite my code, I'm going to invent a way to stab people in the face on the Internet 2015-10-08T16:24:09Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:24:26Z Shinmera: Now you're just giving me incentive to do so because that would be useful. 2015-10-08T16:24:42Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:24:54Z dwchandler: haha 2015-10-08T16:25:49Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:26:10Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:28:45Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:29:40Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:29:54Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:30:47Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-08T16:32:26Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:33:14Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-08T16:34:10Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:34:17Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:35:16Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:37:19Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T16:38:38Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:43:05Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:44:19Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:46:54Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-08T16:47:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T16:48:34Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:48:41Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:49:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:49:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:50:04Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:52:01Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-08T16:52:30Z keen___________6 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T16:52:36Z keen___________7 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:54:41Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-08T16:55:21Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2015-10-08T16:57:21Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:01:19Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:01:34Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-08T17:01:46Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:02:26Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:05:08Z shookees quit (Quit: TATA AND FAREWELL) 2015-10-08T17:05:33Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:06:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:09:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:09:39Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:10:26Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-08T17:13:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:15:49Z dkcl` joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:16:01Z shka: dwchandler: rewrite your code (and share your findings on how to stab people over internet) 2015-10-08T17:16:19Z shka: because that would be usefull 2015-10-08T17:17:36Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:17:44Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:18:15Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:18:26Z sundo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:22:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:23:10Z dkcl` is now known as dkcl 2015-10-08T17:23:15Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-10-08T17:23:15Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:25:26Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:27:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:30:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:30:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:34:02Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:36:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:37:23Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T17:37:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:38:10Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T17:39:38Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:41:30Z iamrohit7 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:42:05Z iamrohit7: what is the advantage of lisp's syntax? 2015-10-08T17:43:48Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:43:59Z chrnybo: On the surface, it's simple. 2015-10-08T17:44:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:47:54Z chrnybo: And the homoiconicity property is kind of a big deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity#Homoiconicity_in_Lisp 2015-10-08T17:48:49Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T17:49:38Z chrnybo: Don't you like it yet? 2015-10-08T17:50:36Z zwdr: Basically, it's a conspiracy by the worlds leading parenthesis suppliers 2015-10-08T17:50:45Z zwdr: to keep themselves afloat 2015-10-08T17:51:10Z chrnybo: xkcd 297 2015-10-08T17:51:55Z chrnybo: With paredit.el, you'll most often get a pair of parens at a time. 2015-10-08T17:52:16Z iamrohit7: how is lisp syntax extensible? 2015-10-08T17:52:58Z akkad: reader macros 2015-10-08T17:53:11Z chrnybo: Plain macros, too? 2015-10-08T17:54:42Z Shinmera: Macros change the semantics. 2015-10-08T17:55:40Z chrnybo: Ok. 2015-10-08T17:56:07Z Shinmera: It gets confusing because in other languages things that are macros in lisp like IF are also syntactical constructs. 2015-10-08T17:56:31Z chrnybo: Go on? 2015-10-08T17:56:34Z Shinmera: Thanks to the uniformity of lisp's syntax we don't need such extra clauses. 2015-10-08T17:56:34Z jlarocco: those sound like homework questions :-) 2015-10-08T17:57:28Z chrnybo: In that case, let's do better. iamrohit7, is this homework? 2015-10-08T17:58:18Z iamrohit7: nope. 2015-10-08T17:58:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-08T17:58:45Z iamrohit7: trying emacs for the first time. 2015-10-08T17:58:51Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T17:59:08Z chrnybo: Know a bit of programming from before? 2015-10-08T17:59:19Z iamrohit7: C, Java, Python. 2015-10-08T17:59:36Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:00:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T18:00:19Z iamrohit7: chrnybo: all those traditional languages with traditional syntax. 2015-10-08T18:00:21Z chrnybo: The dialect of lisp discussed in this channel is Common Lisp. Apart from a core written in C for bootstrapping and speed, emacs is written in Emacs Lisp. 2015-10-08T18:01:07Z iamrohit7: chrnybo: i realize that. syntax is same in each dialect right? 2015-10-08T18:01:30Z Shinmera: No. 2015-10-08T18:01:37Z Shinmera: Only on the bare surface. 2015-10-08T18:01:38Z iamrohit7: jlarocco: i didn't know that schools even teach lisp. 2015-10-08T18:01:42Z chrnybo: Yeah, emacs lisp and common lisp are so close it does not hurt. 2015-10-08T18:01:50Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:02:16Z chrnybo: But you can tell that you'd trust Shinmera rather than me to deliver a working compiler. 2015-10-08T18:02:18Z newcup: chrnybo: you mean syntax-wise? 2015-10-08T18:03:02Z iamrohit7: well, i am a vim user. want an ide like thing that runs on the cheap laptop i got. trying to switch. cant decide whether to continue using vim or switch to emacs. 2015-10-08T18:03:02Z jlarocco: I don't know that either 2015-10-08T18:03:02Z chrnybo: Syntax or semantics, emacs or cl feels the same to me. 2015-10-08T18:03:24Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:03:31Z jlarocco: they must mention it, right? maybe in a programming languages or compilers class? 2015-10-08T18:03:32Z chrnybo: The richest lisper I know of, uses vim, so it's possible. 2015-10-08T18:03:32Z Shinmera: One thing that's immediately different is that elisp is case sensitive, whereas common lisp is upcasing by default. 2015-10-08T18:04:12Z jlarocco: is it paul graham? 2015-10-08T18:04:25Z Shinmera: elisp also only recently got lexical scoping, and it's deactivated by default. 2015-10-08T18:04:27Z chrnybo: jlarocco: Yes. 2015-10-08T18:04:58Z Shinmera: And a bunch of other difference that I can't recall right now because I don't use elisp even close to often enough to care. 2015-10-08T18:05:02Z Shinmera: *differences 2015-10-08T18:05:11Z newcup: chrnybo: emacs lisp is missing a lot functionality. e.g. it doesn't have bignums, conditions and restarts etc. etc. 2015-10-08T18:05:18Z zwdr: just use emacs, and vim as editor 2015-10-08T18:05:36Z jlarocco: technically the syntax is almost the same but the semantics are different 2015-10-08T18:05:52Z chrnybo: Rich as in has had time to pursue painting, helpe others evolve, publish two books. And some. 2015-10-08T18:06:03Z resttime: If your preference is for vim bindings specficially, grab EVIL, an addon that'll enable that in emacs 2015-10-08T18:06:13Z Shinmera: newcup: packages is another thing. 2015-10-08T18:07:52Z newcup: true 2015-10-08T18:08:13Z chrnybo: heh, those are areas "pro" lispers would probably chastise me for if I were to work with them in CL. I did not know that´s because I started out with emacs lisp. 2015-10-08T18:08:17Z iamrohit7: zwdr: like evil-mode? 2015-10-08T18:09:48Z newcup: chrnybo: lack of packages practically causes you to prefix all functions etc. with the name of the "package" to avoid name clashes, if you publish emacs code 2015-10-08T18:10:12Z newcup: but don't get me wrong, emacs lisp is better than no lisp 2015-10-08T18:10:57Z Shinmera mostly runs into the case issue because he got used to uppercasing T and NIL 2015-10-08T18:11:00Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:12:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:13:46Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:15:47Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:19:22Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: the meeting's on the 15th, right ? 2015-10-08T18:20:55Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:22:43Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:26:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:27:52Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:28:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T18:28:48Z ggole quit 2015-10-08T18:31:40Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:32:16Z kdas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T18:35:40Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:35:43Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:37:36Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:39:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:39:37Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:43:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:43:56Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:44:33Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:48:59Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:51:23Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:51:30Z nyef: fe[nl]ix: The boston get-together? Yes, the 15th. 2015-10-08T18:51:40Z fe[nl]ix: ok 2015-10-08T18:51:50Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T18:52:47Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-08T18:53:52Z nyef: fe[nl]ix: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/boston-lisp/2015-September/000355.html 2015-10-08T18:53:56Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-08T18:55:04Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-08T18:55:05Z MasterPiece quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-08T18:56:47Z fe[nl]ix: oh nice, I should subscribe 2015-10-08T18:58:41Z RedEight joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:00:38Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:01:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:06:57Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T19:10:22Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:11:02Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:13:47Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:14:12Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:16:12Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-08T19:17:19Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:17:39Z TheDuckEllington joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:18:13Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:18:39Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T19:20:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Vim is actually really nice for Lisp, especially if you've already have it set up as a nice programmer's editor. 2015-10-08T19:20:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: iamrohit7: I'd just use vim (or neovim, which has some nice improvements) 2015-10-08T19:24:46Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:25:31Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:25:35Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:26:32Z drmeister: Has anyone written complex parsers in CL? Do you recommend any parser generators? Something that works like Bison would be great because I've got a Bison parser that I need to translate to CL. 2015-10-08T19:26:52Z Shinmera: I've written a bunch of parsers, but always by hand. 2015-10-08T19:27:04Z Shinmera: Or with the help of a primitive lexer framework. 2015-10-08T19:27:14Z fantazo quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-08T19:27:18Z Shinmera: Otherwise, have a look at http://cliki.net/parser%20generator 2015-10-08T19:27:57Z Shinmera: People seem to like esrap from what I can remember. 2015-10-08T19:29:11Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:31:46Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:31:58Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:32:08Z nyef: I've always preferred hand-written recursive-descent parsers, myself. 2015-10-08T19:32:35Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:33:06Z Shinmera: I just never could get myself to bother learning parser generators enough to get around. 2015-10-08T19:33:49Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:34:26Z eudoxia: i'm a dumbass who can't write parsers good so i use esrap 2015-10-08T19:34:36Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:35:14Z fiddlerwoaroof wants a parsec-style library for lisp 2015-10-08T19:36:47Z msmith left #lisp 2015-10-08T19:37:00Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-08T19:37:25Z jlarocco: fiddlerwoaroff: https://github.com/vseloved/cl-parsec 2015-10-08T19:37:31Z jlarocco: no idea how well it works, though 2015-10-08T19:38:42Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:39:56Z jlarocco_2 left #lisp 2015-10-08T19:40:40Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:40:52Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:41:14Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:41:59Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:42:38Z iamrohit7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T19:43:17Z doodleha_ joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:43:19Z doodlehaus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T19:44:23Z c74d3a joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:44:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T19:55:14Z ebrasca`: http://pastebin.com/dUsrqDPV 2015-10-08T19:55:27Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:57:51Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T19:57:52Z ebrasca`: make-turtle-system give complete form but something is evil with turtle-system 2015-10-08T19:57:55Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-08T19:58:28Z ebrasca`: i can't find what i make evil 2015-10-08T20:01:26Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T20:04:13Z tifa joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:05:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T20:06:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:10:03Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T20:10:56Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:12:53Z raphaelsss joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:12:55Z jlarocco: I think you want ,@body to be ( ,@body ) 2015-10-08T20:13:27Z tifa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:15:20Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:17:24Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-08T20:18:29Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T20:19:22Z resttime: jlarocco: I think that would just be ,body then 2015-10-08T20:19:43Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:20:33Z resttime: ebrasca`: that looks like an odd usage of a macro 2015-10-08T20:21:53Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:21:54Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:24:01Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:27:19Z Myk267 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:35:19Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:35:23Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-08T20:36:34Z keen___________7 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-08T20:36:51Z keen___________7 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:37:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:38:50Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:42:59Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:43:43Z pjb: You almost never want ,@body to be (,@body). Instead you might want it to be (progn ,@body). 2015-10-08T20:46:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:46:27Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-08T20:46:37Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:46:55Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-08T20:47:35Z ebrasca`: uff 2015-10-08T20:48:09Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:48:20Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:49:22Z pjb: ebrasca`: and in your case, what you want is ,@clauses 2015-10-08T20:49:49Z pjb: and: (defmacro turtle-system (radians list &body clauses) (make-turtle-system radians list clauses)) 2015-10-08T20:51:06Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:51:16Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:53:10Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:53:22Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-08T20:53:29Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:53:55Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-08T20:55:15Z arthurix joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:56:46Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:56:49Z MasterPiece joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:58:00Z Posterdati: hi 2015-10-08T20:58:39Z Posterdati: I need help with gsll: I need a tutorial on one dimensional root-finding 2015-10-08T20:58:48Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-08T20:59:18Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-08T20:59:29Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T20:59:41Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-08T21:00:24Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-08T21:00:30Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-08T21:00:51Z Bike: http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/manual/html_node/Root-Finding-Examples.html ? 2015-10-08T21:01:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-08T21:01:08Z Posterdati: Bike: is not the same for gsll 2015-10-08T21:01:36Z Bike: you sure? i thought gsll was a pretty flat wrapper 2015-10-08T21:01:55Z Posterdati: yes 2015-10-08T21:02:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-08T21:03:24Z Posterdati: ok, solved 2015-10-08T21:03:38Z Posterdati: in the 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2015-10-09T00:25:17Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-09T00:33:30Z NNaNDude joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:33:47Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T00:34:31Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:35:42Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:37:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T00:37:08Z {AS} quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-09T00:45:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:45:57Z drmeister: Does anyone set up virtual machines with VirtualBox? Do you use the Dynamically allocated drive? When I do and start with 8gb the installation fails because it runs out of room. Apparently it isn't dynamically increasing the size of the drive. 2015-10-09T00:46:19Z drmeister: Tangentially related to Common Lisp - I'm trying to set up a portable Clasp/ Common Lisp development system. 2015-10-09T00:47:06Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-09T00:47:46Z aeth: I used to set up a lot of vbox VMs. What I did was basically build up an intuition through trial and error of about how much I need as a minimum drive size, which varies by OS and what I want to do with it. (Windows iirc requires a lot more than Linux or BSD and a headless 'nix is next to nothing.) 2015-10-09T00:47:56Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T00:47:58Z aeth: So you just kind of have to estimate 2015-10-09T00:48:13Z aeth: It might have changed and my size intuition is going to be off because it's been about 4 years. 2015-10-09T00:48:26Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:48:49Z drmeister: Does the virtual drive increase in size? 2015-10-09T00:48:54Z eschatologist quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-09T00:50:41Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-09T00:51:26Z arthurix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T00:53:09Z aeth: drmeister: I think you need to install the virtualbox extensions as a separate step first, which means it won't do it during the installation process. 2015-10-09T00:54:05Z drmeister: I see, so I have to estimate the size for the install and then after that it might grow the virtual drive. 2015-10-09T00:54:17Z drmeister: aeth: Thanks - that sounds plausible. I'll give it a try. 2015-10-09T00:54:19Z nyef: IIRC, with the dynamic-size drives, you set the maximum size, and it expands to that point based on which sectors get written to. 2015-10-09T00:54:20Z aeth: I am not 100% sure. VirtualBox broke at some point for me and I haven't bothered to fix it yet. 2015-10-09T00:54:37Z aeth: ah, what nyef says makes more sense, you do need to set a maximum 2015-10-09T00:54:46Z drmeister: aeth: Me too, two years ago. 2015-10-09T00:55:11Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:55:11Z drmeister: nyef: Ah - that's not what I expected, but that makes sense as well. 2015-10-09T00:55:13Z nyef: But it starts off with just the drive image header, or something. Almost no space at all until it gets partitioned, and then formatted. 2015-10-09T00:55:45Z aeth: Iirc... What I did for my Windows XP VM (which at some point tripped a false positive for Windows Genuine Advantage... I hate Microsoft) was have a separate C:\ and D:\, with C:\ being a small system drive and D:\ being a much larger expandable one that will probably (hopefully) not ever reach its limit 2015-10-09T00:55:59Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-09T00:56:42Z drmeister: I just checked. The virtual drive that I set up at 64GB is only taking 5GB at the moment. 2015-10-09T00:57:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T00:58:05Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T00:58:17Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-10-09T01:03:03Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T01:03:38Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-09T01:06:06Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-09T01:58:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:02:50Z drmeister: nyef: Do you use Ubuntu? 2015-10-09T02:02:52Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:03:27Z drmeister: I downloaded version 14.something-or-other. It looks like it only supports up to clang-3.5 2015-10-09T02:03:47Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:04:29Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:04:31Z drmeister: Never mind. I installed clang-3.6 and it's there as clang++-3.6 2015-10-09T02:04:52Z nyef: I use Ubuntu for a "work" Linux VM only at this point... and it's long overdue for a repave, probably with Debian this time, now that there's a half-decent desktop option. 2015-10-09T02:05:34Z nyef: (Although Debian jessie seems to top out at LLVM 3.5 or something like that.) 2015-10-09T02:12:18Z gnawrghz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:13:17Z TheDuckEllington joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:14:09Z heddwch quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-09T02:14:17Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:15:35Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:16:06Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:17:51Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:18:19Z heddwch quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-09T02:19:04Z cibs_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:20:25Z NNaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:22:09Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:24:27Z gnawrghz joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:30:44Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:31:05Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T02:31:29Z cibs_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:32:06Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-10-09T02:32:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:34:10Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:36:10Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:36:55Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T02:38:02Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:38:12Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:39:07Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:44:32Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:46:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-09T02:59:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:00:34Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:02:07Z loke: Hello, Doktor Mäster! 2015-10-09T03:02:41Z loke: nyef: What do you use for your primary OS then? 2015-10-09T03:03:19Z digiorgi: hi, mi friends. Do you know hay the ARPA had or has interest in the lisp, and specially in CL? 2015-10-09T03:03:59Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:04:46Z loke: digiorgi: The history of Lisp is well documented. For example here: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 2015-10-09T03:05:33Z loke: diginet: The arpa involvement is discussed there. 2015-10-09T03:05:53Z nyef: loke: My primary OS for personal use is currently Debian jessie. For "work", I'm running some old-ish version of OS X as a host, and a rather beat-up Ubuntu VM for most of the actual programming bits, and Debian wheezy on most of the EC2 instances. 2015-10-09T03:06:01Z digiorgi: loke: thanks 2015-10-09T03:06:50Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T03:07:19Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:07:46Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T03:08:41Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:12:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T03:14:31Z cibs joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:18:36Z cibs_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:18:43Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:22:11Z kalvano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T03:26:24Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:27:27Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:27:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-09T03:28:47Z digiorgi: beach: here is 00:28 (:.... good morning 2015-10-09T03:28:52Z digiorgi: there? 2015-10-09T03:30:01Z beach: 05:28 2015-10-09T03:32:34Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:33:07Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T03:33:11Z findiggle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T03:34:01Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-09T03:34:02Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T03:38:39Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:39:16Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:39:17Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:42:18Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-09T03:44:41Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:46:04Z cheryllium: my friend is trying to get xelf to work on his computer, and we're currently stuck on the error "Error opening shared object "zlib1.dll": %1 is not a valid Win32 application." What is stumping us is that xelf works on my computer (running windows 8) and a search for zlib on my computer returns nothing. 2015-10-09T03:46:13Z cheryllium: *running windows 8 2015-10-09T03:46:58Z cheryllium: If anyone has any insight as to what could be going on here, it would be appreciated... if it helps, he is running windows 10 2015-10-09T03:48:24Z resttime: cheryllium: perhaps it's differing architectures? 2015-10-09T03:48:32Z resttime: x86 vs x86_64 2015-10-09T03:48:57Z cheryllium: That's what i thought, but both of our machines are 64-bit 2015-10-09T03:49:26Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:49:28Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T03:50:25Z cheryllium: Is there a way of checking which SBCL I have installed (32-bit vs 64-bit)? 2015-10-09T03:50:51Z resttime: evaluate: *features* 2015-10-09T03:52:00Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:52:08Z cheryllium: Ahhh thank you. That's the issue. I have 32-bit SBCL. 2015-10-09T03:52:25Z resttime: No problem 2015-10-09T03:52:29Z cheryllium: Does this mean Xelf is not compatible with 64-bit? 2015-10-09T03:52:54Z resttime: Not necessarily, just that the binaries (DLL) are not compiled for x86_64 2015-10-09T03:52:57Z cheryllium: As my friend had 64-bit SBCL, and yet I think one of the dll dependencies was only available in 32-bit. 2015-10-09T03:53:23Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T03:55:14Z resttime: I believe you should be able to build the 64-bit dependencies assuming you have the proper build environment 2015-10-09T03:55:36Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T03:55:53Z cheryllium: That makes sense. We don't know how to build DLLs, but I suppose we can do research it. 2015-10-09T03:57:31Z resttime: Well you guys might be able to find prebuilt ones out there, I imagine zlib can be found easily since it's a relatively popular library. 2015-10-09T03:58:30Z cheryllium: This is very odd. Now we are getting an error "LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR" for libtiff, even though he definitely has the dll file, and it is pointed to by Path 2015-10-09T03:59:02Z cheryllium: It says "Unable to load any of the alternatives: <"libtiff-5.dlll" "libtiff-3.dll">" 2015-10-09T03:59:29Z cheryllium: However, I can see that he has libtiff-3.dll in the same folder as the other dlls we had to find for this, and those were found successfully... 2015-10-09T04:00:13Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T04:00:19Z meiji11` joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:03:35Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:06:56Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:08:43Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:08:43Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Changing host) 2015-10-09T04:08:43Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:10:39Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:11:24Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T04:11:38Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:13:19Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-09T04:14:12Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-09T04:14:33Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:17:12Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:18:59Z TheDuckEllington quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-09T04:19:08Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-09T04:19:08Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:24:03Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:28:00Z keen___________7 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T04:28:09Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-09T04:28:17Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T04:28:23Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T04:28:43Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:29:04Z keen___________7 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:34:19Z emaczen: How can I extend a macro-character's function? I would like to do a check, and if it passes, do some custom function or otherwise do what would normally be done. 2015-10-09T04:34:39Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:34:56Z Bike: save the old character reader function somewhere, write a new function that calls that to default, set t hat as the character 2015-10-09T04:35:17Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:35:50Z emaczen: Okay, yes I follow this line of thought. 2015-10-09T04:35:54Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:35:57Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:36:02Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T04:36:06Z Bike: couple other things you could do, but that's most obvious tome 2015-10-09T04:36:50Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:37:21Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T04:38:37Z emaczen: I think my real confusion is this example: I want "(:a tbl)" to look for key :a in hash-table tbl. So, along these lines, I should create my own macro-character function and check if the second argument is a hash-table. If not then carry on as usual. 2015-10-09T04:38:39Z emaczen: Will this work? 2015-10-09T04:39:20Z Bike: Macro character on left parenthesis? 2015-10-09T04:39:59Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T04:40:06Z Bike: if you had to make that syntax, i'd put it on [] or something, and just skip worrying about defaults. 2015-10-09T04:41:09Z resttime: Wouldn't you want let it signal an error if tbl wasn't a hash-table rather than carrying on? 2015-10-09T04:41:36Z emaczen: resttime: For this exact syntax '(:a 1) is a plist right? 2015-10-09T04:41:44Z White_Flame: seeing as (:a tbl) is a valid lisp form, I think it'll come to bite you in the backside later 2015-10-09T04:41:52Z Bike: yeah, what flame said. 2015-10-09T04:42:21Z Bike: problem two is that this is a reader macro - you can't know tbl "is a table" because nothing's been evaluated. you don't even know if the form you're reading is supposed to be evaluated. 2015-10-09T04:42:27Z emaczen: Alright, I'll go with [ or { -- set-dispatch-macro-character should be sufficient then right? 2015-10-09T04:42:28Z White_Flame: (some-macro (:option foo) ...body...) 2015-10-09T04:42:34Z loke: Another solution would be to create a macro chacarter on a different character, in order to make it (~a foo) 2015-10-09T04:42:35Z Bike: just set-macro-character 2015-10-09T04:42:37Z pillton: How about just a macrolet? It would only be two extract characters. 2015-10-09T04:42:48Z pillton: s/extract/extra/ 2015-10-09T04:43:06Z emaczen: pillton: what is this s/term1/term2? I saw you do it last night too. 2015-10-09T04:43:10Z loke: In other words, make ~FOO return the following (lambda (v) (cdr (assoc :FOO v))) 2015-10-09T04:43:15Z pillton: emaczen: man sed 2015-10-09T04:43:30Z loke: that would allow you to do stuff like (mapcar ~a somelist) 2015-10-09T04:43:42Z emaczen: pillton: I know sed is the stream editor 2015-10-09T04:44:09Z Bike: s is the sed command to run regex replacement. 2015-10-09T04:44:10Z pillton: emaczen: It means search what I said previously and replace extract with extra. 2015-10-09T04:44:15Z White_Flame: [] and {} are explicitly reserved for the programmer to use in custom syntax 2015-10-09T04:44:52Z pillton: From what I can tell, Gen Y (and younger) folk do extra*. 2015-10-09T04:45:03Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:45:34Z pillton: Interestingly, Skype used to execute the replacement. They removed it. 2015-10-09T04:46:30Z Bike: i wonder if i can be generation aleph or something 2015-10-09T04:46:51Z pillton: aleph or alpha? 2015-10-09T04:46:56Z White_Flame: Gen Y has the most derivative, non-descriptive name of any named generation ever :-P 2015-10-09T04:47:06Z resttime: emaczen: ah sorry, yes it's a plist 2015-10-09T04:47:19Z emaczen: Is the purpose of set-dispatch-macro-character to add another character so you can have more macro characters? 2015-10-09T04:47:33Z resttime: I think the s/word1/word2 is from vim 2015-10-09T04:47:40Z White_Flame: it adds to those dispatched by #\# 2015-10-09T04:47:43Z pillton: If you use reader macros I suggest you look at named-readtables too. 2015-10-09T04:48:04Z White_Flame: no, nevermind, you can dispatch on others, too 2015-10-09T04:48:46Z Bike: emaczen: set-dispatch-macro-character is for the mechanism where you can have A#B where A and B are whatever characters, and # is a number. in standard syntax A is always # but you can throw more in if you please. 2015-10-09T04:49:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T04:50:03Z emaczen: Right now I have a reader macro #{ :a 1 :b 2 :c 3} That creates a hash-table. Can I get rid of the "#" ? 2015-10-09T04:50:19Z Bike: sure 2015-10-09T04:50:34Z Bike: set-macro-character on { 2015-10-09T04:51:01Z emaczen: Bike: I just tried that unsuccessfully 2015-10-09T04:51:22Z Bike: Tried how? 2015-10-09T04:51:31Z emaczen: My limited experience tells me that reader macros work better if I copy and paste them into the REPL rather than C-C C-c 2015-10-09T04:51:43Z White_Flame: I personally would recommend #{(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3), so you don't end up with ))})})} in closing your forms 2015-10-09T04:52:36Z Bike: well, i wouldn't use a bracket, then. #& or some shit 2015-10-09T04:53:02Z emaczen: Bike: I changed this: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\{ to (set-macro-character #\{ without any luck 2015-10-09T04:53:20Z Bike: dispatch macro character reader functions take a different set of arguments than regular character readers 2015-10-09T04:53:37Z Bike: particularly, it should take two, the stream and the character read 2015-10-09T04:53:46Z Bike: whereas dispatch macro functions take three, since that number is in there 2015-10-09T04:53:59Z Bike: so, uh, don't just blindly c/p 2015-10-09T04:54:20Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks, it is working now 2015-10-09T04:54:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:54:41Z emaczen: My lambda form doesn't use any char arguments so that was confusing 2015-10-09T04:55:06Z emaczen: But I removed the second char argument and it works well now 2015-10-09T04:55:11Z phf: just a psa, (alexandria:plist-hash-table '(:a 1 :b2)) => 2015-10-09T04:57:05Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-09T04:57:24Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:57:44Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:59:25Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T04:59:25Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T05:00:35Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:00:35Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T05:01:48Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-09T05:07:13Z emaczen: Wow, this is pretty easy and so cool/useful! 2015-10-09T05:11:17Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:12:33Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-09T05:13:04Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:17:40Z resttime: okay I think I found that the history for s/word1/word2 is actually from ed (text editor) where I think it was first used and specifically regular expressions 2015-10-09T05:17:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-09T05:18:40Z Bike: well, yes. 2015-10-09T05:19:57Z pillton: I've seen it on clay tablets in Egypt. 2015-10-09T05:20:23Z Bike: that's just an urban legends. the actual egyptians used snobol 2015-10-09T05:21:29Z pillton: Haha. The SPITBOL compiler. 2015-10-09T05:23:59Z phf: actually, it's from qed, originally, SUBSTITUTE /foo/ FOR /bar/ which in quick mode could be written as S/foo/bar/ 2015-10-09T05:26:32Z resttime: Wow, that's really ancient :O 2015-10-09T05:28:07Z phf: curiously, qed supported arbitrary delimiters, i.e. s.foo.bar. which was lost somewhere along the way, and i think only added again around perl times. i thought that was like "new and improved" regex handling. not so. 2015-10-09T05:29:44Z phf: oh, nm, sed supports it too 2015-10-09T05:29:53Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:30:00Z phf: but not ed 2015-10-09T05:30:24Z phf: because y'all really cared! 2015-10-09T05:31:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T05:35:33Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T05:45:26Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T05:46:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:47:57Z Myk267 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-09T05:48:21Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:51:43Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:51:48Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-09T05:52:09Z pillton likes enough-namestring 2015-10-09T05:56:53Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-09T05:57:31Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T06:01:30Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:03:21Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:04:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:08:36Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T06:08:49Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:09:03Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:09:11Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:09:39Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:11:05Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T06:11:16Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:13:13Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-09T06:17:18Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:18:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:18:28Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:20:23Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-09T06:24:07Z smokeink_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:25:18Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:27:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:27:43Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:29:04Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T06:29:33Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:29:47Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:30:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:32:48Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:33:25Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:33:54Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T06:34:42Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T06:35:09Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:38:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:39:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:39:20Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:45:37Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:52:24Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:52:31Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-09T06:55:01Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-09T09:01:36Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:03:11Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:04:59Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/209a7/ 2015-10-09T09:04:59Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:06:48Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:07:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:12:14Z splittist: smokeink: move m-v-b to be the outermost form and move the if to around the functions? 2015-10-09T09:12:16Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-09T09:14:41Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:14:41Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:14:44Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:15:45Z smokeink: splittist: yes that seems to do it 2015-10-09T09:16:54Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:17:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:17:56Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:21:00Z profess joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:23:37Z madmalik joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:24:46Z sjl 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peer) 2015-10-09T09:34:33Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:34:34Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T09:34:59Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:36:44Z loke: Why not (m-v-b (var1 var2) (if condition (some-function1) (some-function2)) ..do-whatever...) 2015-10-09T09:37:24Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:39:24Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:40:41Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:40:49Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T09:41:19Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:41:39Z smokeink: yes 2015-10-09T09:44:31Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:45:02Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:45:51Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:46:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:46:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:47:46Z smokeink: i'm converting an ugly code written in python, what i've got is more like this http://pastecode.ru/9759d/ 2015-10-09T09:47:52Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:49:03Z smokeink: i have to update that npos with the 2nd value returned by find-next-token 2015-10-09T09:50:05Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:54:07Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:55:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T09:55:24Z mike-1-213 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:55:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:56:03Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T09:56:35Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:57:03Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:57:08Z XachX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T09:57:08Z {AS} quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T09:58:20Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T09:58:36Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T10:00:48Z paulo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T10:01:12Z paulo_ is now known as Guest2802 2015-10-09T10:01:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-09T10:01:39Z kdas_ quit 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(setf x "abcd") (subseq2 x 0 -2) ==> "ab" 2015-10-09T11:02:29Z smokeink: subseq only works with nonnegative indexes 2015-10-09T11:05:40Z Shinmera: If your vector has a fill-pointer you could decf that. If you have a list there's n/butlast. 2015-10-09T11:07:17Z Shinmera: Otherwise, not that I'm aware. It's trivial to write in any case. 2015-10-09T11:09:15Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:09:31Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:11:10Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:11:23Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:11:31Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:15:12Z smokeink: yeah, well it's handy for string/list manipulation (subseq2 "abcd" -3) => "bcd" (subseq '(a b c d) 0 -3) ==> (A) i thought subseq should be able to do that by default 2015-10-09T11:15:45Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:17:12Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:17:45Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:17:54Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T11:18:51Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:18:53Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:19:04Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:21:43Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:21:47Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:23:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:26:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T11:29:36Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:29:40Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:30:14Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:31:01Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:31:59Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:32:28Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:40:18Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:40:41Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T11:41:51Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:42:10Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:42:24Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:43:00Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:45:58Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T11:48:12Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:50:02Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:51:56Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:52:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T11:52:39Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:53:52Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T11:55:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:55:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:57:10Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-09T11:58:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:00:00Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:00:36Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-09T12:00:43Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T12:02:12Z xan_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T12:03:12Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:03:50Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T12:11:16Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-09T12:12:44Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:13:55Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:14:27Z Xof: who's in charge of cffi these days? 2015-10-09T12:14:37Z inmove joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:15:17Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:16:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-09T12:16:46Z jackdaniel: Xof: luis- and fe[nl]ix (maybe more, not sure) 2015-10-09T12:18:30Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:18:33Z nzst joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:20:32Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:23:43Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What's the reason for the readtable case change? 2015-10-09T12:51:05Z Shinmera: I'm just curious. 2015-10-09T12:51:45Z Xof: I DON'T LIKE SHOUTING 2015-10-09T12:51:48Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:52:01Z Xof: also, I'm dealing with mathematical notation, where case is often important 2015-10-09T12:52:10Z Shinmera: Well you could just print downcased to avoid the shouting. 2015-10-09T12:52:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:52:18Z Xof: I want to be able to use y and Y as distinct identifiers 2015-10-09T12:52:23Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-10-09T12:53:40Z fe[nl]ix: the file generated by cffi-grovel assumes :upcase 2015-10-09T12:53:57Z Xof: I think that all I need to do is to move some with-standard-io-syntaxes around 2015-10-09T12:54:33Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T12:54:46Z Xof: but alternatively I think that what might need to happen is to add a with-standard-io-syntax in the asdf support 2015-10-09T12:56:13Z fe[nl]ix: there's a (defmethod asdf:perform :around ((op asdf:compile-op) (file cc-flags-mixin)) in grovel/asdf.lisp 2015-10-09T12:56:17Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:56:26Z fe[nl]ix: a with-standard-io-syntax there should do the trick 2015-10-09T12:56:42Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:57:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-09T12:57:28Z Xof: wait, isn't that dealing with the input file? 2015-10-09T12:57:58Z Xof: I was going to try putting one in the perform asdf:compile-op process-op-input method 2015-10-09T12:58:03Z Xof: (and there's the load-as-source thing too 2015-10-09T12:58:08Z Xof: gah, meeting, sorry 2015-10-09T12:58:09Z {AS} quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-09T12:58:10Z fe[nl]ix: that's around the whole compilation 2015-10-09T13:03:22Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(*print-readably* nil) 2015-10-09T13:44:25Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:44:55Z Xof: whoops 2015-10-09T13:45:04Z Xof: blame multitasking 2015-10-09T13:45:47Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T13:46:10Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:46:25Z warweasle: pjb: You mean lexdisia. 2015-10-09T13:46:44Z durm joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:47:06Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:47:19Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:48:00Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:48:06Z shka: hi 2015-10-09T13:48:19Z shka: can i install serapeum with quicklisp? 2015-10-09T13:48:33Z shka: i THINK i could do that in the past 2015-10-09T13:49:01Z pjb: Type: (quick-apropos "serapeum") to know if. 2015-10-09T13:49:40Z pjb: Type: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (use-package :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) if you haven't already to get quick-apropos. 2015-10-09T13:50:31Z warweasle is reminded to contribute to quicklisp. 2015-10-09T13:50:33Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T13:50:39Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-09T13:50:39Z shka: i was trying to use apropos 2015-10-09T13:50:48Z Xof: hm, this is not a flawless victory 2015-10-09T13:50:51Z shka: but it returned nothing 2015-10-09T13:50:55Z pjb: apropos gives what's already in the image. 2015-10-09T13:50:55Z Xof: now everything compiles, but nothing works :) 2015-10-09T13:51:23Z pjb: quick-apropos gives what systems are provided by quicklisp. 2015-10-09T13:51:25Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:51:33Z snv quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-09T13:51:37Z Xof: everyone wants to do my-ffi:+FOO+ everywhere for constants, which isn't consistent with an :upcase grovelled file and a :invert readtable 2015-10-09T13:51:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T13:51:54Z shka: i was using system-apropos 2015-10-09T13:52:01Z shka: i should update quicklisp to begin with... 2015-10-09T13:52:42Z warweasle: Question about contributing to Quicklisp. My project has to build a C++ wrapper library to work. Is that allowed in quicklisp? Is there a way to build it automagically? 2015-10-09T13:53:18Z XachX: If it builds via asdf it is acceptable. 2015-10-09T13:54:00Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:54:09Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:55:34Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T13:56:19Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T13:56:24Z warweasle: XachX: I didn't know that was possible. I was looking inside quicklisp. Do you know of any examples? 2015-10-09T13:56:49Z XachX: Hmm. Not sure. Maybe clsql 2015-10-09T13:57:07Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:57:15Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-10-09T13:57:26Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T13:58:09Z warweasle: XachX: Also, is there a way to check c or c++ headers before building the cffi bindings? I want to check for single or double precision. 2015-10-09T13:58:59Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:59:01Z warweasle: This might also be a good time to mention valentine, bullet physics bindings...first real draft but it's swig based. 2015-10-09T13:59:44Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T13:59:44Z XachX: Don't know, sorry. I avoid foreign libraries as much as I can. Others might know. 2015-10-09T14:00:40Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-09T14:06:04Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T14:06:51Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-09T14:07:07Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T14:10:06Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-09T14:11:12Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T14:12:17Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T14:13:26Z shka: quickdocs web page got updated look recently? 2015-10-09T14:14:09Z eudoxia: i dont see anything different 2015-10-09T14:15:10Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T14:15:20Z shka: ok 2015-10-09T14:16:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T14:16:20Z Xof: right! Somewhat working everything with :invert 2015-10-09T14:16:44Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T14:17:08Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T14:18:03Z jself joined #lisp 2015-10-09T14:20:17Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It might pop up a completions window, but it should leave the point in the repl 2015-10-09T15:03:22Z Ethan-__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:03:24Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:03:27Z Xof: if that also does what I expect, could you type C-h c TAB again? 2015-10-09T15:03:30Z Ethan-_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:03:35Z Xof: and tell me what it says? 2015-10-09T15:04:30Z raphaelssss quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T15:04:43Z |3b|: "TAB (translated from ) runs the command slime-indent-and-complete-symbol" in minibuffer both times 2015-10-09T15:05:01Z Xof: hm 2015-10-09T15:05:04Z |3b|: was the "n i" supposed to do anything other than input "in" at repl? 2015-10-09T15:05:17Z Xof: I'd have said it should input "ni" 2015-10-09T15:05:28Z Xof: it was just something to get a reasonable-sized completions window 2015-10-09T15:05:30Z |3b|: right 2015-10-09T15:05:34Z shka: Xof: describe symbol 2015-10-09T15:05:47Z Xof: ok, for me, the second TAB says "completion-at-point" 2015-10-09T15:05:53Z Xof: and I can't work out why 2015-10-09T15:05:58Z Xof: I can't even work out how to work out why 2015-10-09T15:06:13Z Xof: but it is probably something in my configuration somewhere if it doesn't happen universally :-( 2015-10-09T15:06:47Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:07:06Z Xof: this persists over more typing but restores slime-indent-and-complete-symbol after buffer manipulations 2015-10-09T15:07:38Z Xof: (I probably mean "window manipulations") 2015-10-09T15:08:02Z |3b|: what is slime-complete-symbol-function ? 2015-10-09T15:09:23Z Xof: nil 2015-10-09T15:09:34Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:09:40Z Xof: slime-completion-at-point-functions is (slime-filename-completion slime-simple-completion-at-point) 2015-10-09T15:09:40Z |3b| changes that in config (though oddly doesn't seem to be set to what i changed it to), which might affect the results 2015-10-09T15:09:51Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:10:38Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:11:31Z |3b|: hmm, looks like i don't have that... wonder if my slime is out of date 2015-10-09T15:13:17Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:13:52Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:14:08Z |3b|: yeah, looks like it 2015-10-09T15:14:41Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:15:00Z Xof: completion-in-region-mode 2015-10-09T15:15:02Z Xof: hm hm hm 2015-10-09T15:15:05Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:15:40Z jfe quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-09T15:15:40Z jfe_ is now known as jfe 2015-10-09T15:16:32Z |3b| still gets slime-indent-and-complete-symbol both times with current slime 2015-10-09T15:16:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:17:47Z Xof: how new is your emacs? 2015-10-09T15:17:58Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:18:30Z |3b|: 24.3.1 2015-10-09T15:18:33Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:19:20Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-09T15:19:37Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T15:20:04Z Xof: do you have a completion-in-region function? 2015-10-09T15:20:44Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:20:46Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T15:21:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-09T15:22:22Z Xof: but, anyway, I think I now understand the behaviour I'm seeing 2015-10-09T15:22:28Z Xof: now I just need to fix it :-( 2015-10-09T15:22:36Z Desmaad joined #lisp 2015-10-09T15:23:10Z |3b|: the function exists in minibuffer.el if that's what you mean 2015-10-09T15:23:18Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-09T17:04:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:06:04Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:07:46Z k-stz: Xof: works, just adding (declare (optimize debug)). Finally something that behaves different when I add this 2015-10-09T17:08:07Z k-stz: though I have a (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) at the top-level 2015-10-09T17:08:30Z Denommus` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-09T17:08:44Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-09T17:08:48Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:10:00Z pjb: k-stz: but you might have loaded a library that changed the optimization level. 2015-10-09T17:10:03Z cluck quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-09T17:10:07Z pjb: try to identify it, and kill it. 2015-10-09T17:10:09Z k-stz: no I lied it is top-level in anther file 2015-10-09T17:10:19Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:10:20Z k-stz: it works with (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) 2015-10-09T17:10:48Z mike-1-2-3 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-09T17:11:00Z k-stz: and that other file is in another package so to speak 2015-10-09T17:11:31Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:12:47Z pjb: uterly irrelevant. 2015-10-09T17:13:07Z k-stz: I feared as much 2015-10-09T17:13:38Z mike-1-2-3 joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:13:43Z pjb: Well, actually optimize declarations are dynamic. 2015-10-09T17:13:48Z pjb: Well, actually "The consequences are unspecified if a quality appears more than once with different values." 2015-10-09T17:13:56Z pjb: ignore the first. 2015-10-09T17:14:00Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:14:12Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:14:30Z pjb: So it's up to the implementation what to do when you have two declaim optimize. One more reason to definitely avoid them in libraries! 2015-10-09T17:15:03Z pjb: But most implementation will just modify the current optimization state and it takes effect for the next compiled form. (or the current form for local declarations). 2015-10-09T17:15:35Z pjb: Also, I guess you could have some "fun" with multiple local declartions with different optimize levels in embedded scopes… 2015-10-09T17:17:38Z k-stz: pjb: "it takes effect for the next compiled form" i.e. it is not concerned with packages 2015-10-09T17:18:54Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:22:05Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:23:50Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:24:25Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T17:25:22Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:26:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:31:00Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:31:39Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:32:24Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:33:27Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:34:05Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-09T17:34:14Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-09T17:34:53Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T17:35:00Z 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returned value by the first function (c). 2015-10-09T21:41:43Z ajf-: I'm thinking in a loop that saves the previous value, and asks if the current is greater than the previous but lower than the next 2015-10-09T21:42:06Z Bike: Is the mapping finite? 2015-10-09T21:42:43Z phf: is it sorted? 2015-10-09T21:42:59Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-10-09T21:43:07Z ajf-: yes it's finite and sorted 2015-10-09T21:43:48Z Bike: cos i would probably be lazy and do along the lines of (first (sort #'< mapping :key (lambda (pair) (abs (- (number-of pair) number))))) 2015-10-09T21:45:48Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-10-09T21:46:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T21:50:16Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T21:50:32Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-09T21:51:15Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T21:53:48Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-09T21:53:53Z mac_ified 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I've been messing around with Racket a tiny bit the past few months, and one of the nicest things about the enviornment (next to how much everything is documented) is the fact that there is a mandate to use there documentation system. I saw that there is "CommonDoc", but di doesn't seem to really be used by any big projects as far as I can tell. 2015-10-09T23:07:23Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-10-09T23:08:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T23:08:29Z sekrit quit (Ping timeout: 608 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:09:27Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:09:55Z akkad: jsgrant-: other than clhs? 2015-10-09T23:09:57Z akkad: or clhs.org? 2015-10-09T23:11:42Z phf: i think texinfo comes closest, but not common lisp specific, and not really used by common lisp projects 2015-10-09T23:12:41Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-09T23:13:58Z jsgrant-: akkad: I meant like a system to write documentation, not a large somewhat standard repository of CL docs. :^P 2015-10-09T23:15:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:17:19Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:18:06Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:18:08Z jsgrant-: phf: True. Texinfo is a relative delight in/for Emacs, not really for the system itself from a writer's perspective (I've done a tiny bit, and it leaves a lot to be desired), but having a local copy of all your lisp software docs easily viewable via *info* without having to open a webbrowser and source it from someother place as such quickdocs seems to attempt. 2015-10-09T23:18:56Z XachX: jsgrant-: no relatively popular option in CL 2015-10-09T23:21:27Z phf: there's also info(1) for doing it from cli. in any case, i've been making sure that if something has info, i have it in my infopath 2015-10-09T23:22:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:23:55Z phf: if one had plenty of free time on ones hand, one could write a handful of automatic translators from the assortment of current adhoc documentations :) 2015-10-09T23:25:17Z XachX: That is what quick docs attempts. Sort of. 2015-10-09T23:27:52Z jsgrant-: phf: To push it into what, texinfo? 2015-10-09T23:28:30Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T23:28:44Z jabooti joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:29:03Z Shinmera: There might even be more doc generators than test frameworks out there. 2015-10-09T23:29:23Z Shinmera: The one written by yours truly is called Staple. 2015-10-09T23:29:36Z jsgrant-: Ultimately, I would think if any large attempt to have a unified document system for Lisp -- it'd have really well and strong stated goals. And/or be under the control of a body that could actively force people to use it, to contribute upstream (like Racket does to some degree) and I don't think CL has that authority nor probably should it. 2015-10-09T23:29:58Z Shinmera: I don't see the problem to be honest. 2015-10-09T23:30:30Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: What, you didn't painfully shove CL into the name -- you monster. :^) Stapcl. 2015-10-09T23:30:50Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: The problem of not having a unified documentation system, or? 2015-10-09T23:31:04Z Shinmera: jsgrant-: I was listening to a song called "Staple stable" at the time. 2015-10-09T23:31:08Z Shinmera: jsgrant-: Yes. 2015-10-09T23:31:55Z jsgrant-: I'm not sure if it's really problem, just a comparitive niceness I've noticed missing from shifting a lot more-so to the Scheme to CL-like side of things. 2015-10-09T23:32:39Z Shinmera: I haven't really missed it to be honest. Usually the github readme/documentation link and slime autocompletion is enough to get me started. Usually I look at docstrings through slime anyhow, so I don't really use that feature of documentations too often. 2015-10-09T23:33:06Z Shinmera: What I'd much rather see is something that forces people to actually write an introduction, tutorial, and perhaps a short documentation body for every project so you know what the hell is even going on or how to use it. 2015-10-09T23:33:21Z Shinmera: That's much, much more direly needed than unifying the end resulting HTML. 2015-10-09T23:34:11Z Shinmera: (I came from a Java world where everything was unified in javadocs, so a similar situation to Racket, I suppose) 2015-10-09T23:34:24Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: Couldn't that be rolled into something like Roswell and/or Quickproject though, relatively easily then? 2015-10-09T23:34:28Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:34:47Z Shinmera: jsgrant-: What? Making sure people actually write docs? 2015-10-09T23:34:54Z jabooti: windows lispers of freenode please help. I'm standing up a windows dev environment and I'm trying to figure out what do to about 3rd party libraries. Namely where to put them. I just hate windows but I'm stuck with it for now. 2015-10-09T23:36:05Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: Having tools that create project templates, to make it harder to ignore to write what some may call "basic introductory documentation". 2015-10-09T23:36:28Z Shinmera: jsgrant-: I think you'll find that people who don't want to write docs won't use those tools and/or won't write it anyway. 2015-10-09T23:36:49Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:37:00Z jsgrant-: I think most people are actually pretty good at this since Github's focus on "readme.md", but I still run into it a lot. 2015-10-09T23:37:17Z Shinmera: The only way to get it done would be to have some kind of authority that enforces it. E.g. as a quicklisp submission requirement. But that's not a popular vector and I'm not too enthusiastic about it either. 2015-10-09T23:37:37Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: Well I'm not saying exhaustive documentation, but as you pointed out, maybe a "getting started" tutorial or something similar. 2015-10-09T23:37:40Z sekrit joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:38:06Z Shinmera: I'm just saying it's very difficult to get people to do anything. 2015-10-09T23:38:32Z resttime: jabooti: Keep them with build environment or in the software folder? 2015-10-09T23:39:01Z jsgrant-: Maybe because I'm still a student, and documentation is echo'd so loudly as a must -- but yeah, I guess I just find it odd that it's not almost a universal given. :^P 2015-10-09T23:39:06Z yaewa joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:39:19Z mood: What I find particularly annoying is projects that have a "doc" directory with some tex(info) or html files, and then those files turn out to just be placeholders, on a project whose last commit was two years ago 2015-10-09T23:39:33Z Shinmera: That's what those project skeletons do 2015-10-09T23:39:46Z Shinmera: Which is to say, in the average case they create litter but aren't really used anyway. 2015-10-09T23:40:02Z jsgrant-: mood: Have, yeah, I've run into that. Yeah, most of the time it's a skeleton that they never bothered to mess with. 2015-10-09T23:40:03Z jabooti: resstime: what do you mean by those places. like keep them in the project's folder then explicitly add the local directory to the cffi library search paths? 2015-10-09T23:40:17Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-09T23:40:37Z jabooti: and repeat for each dependent project ad nauseum? 2015-10-09T23:41:02Z Shinmera: I'm just doing my part of the bargain by trying to documentate as much as I can bear for all projects that I release. 2015-10-09T23:41:06Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:41:07Z resttime: jabooti: if you build the libraries with cygwin / mingw32 I mean, and then have environment variables point to where the make install puts them 2015-10-09T23:41:08Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:41:08Z jsgrant-: Was it actually "better", I wonder, in say the 80s -- as I tend to hear, or is this people's nostaliga? 2015-10-09T23:41:28Z Shinmera: Trying to convince other people to conform to it is folly 2015-10-09T23:41:51Z Shinmera: Undocumented stuff has existed long before software too. 2015-10-09T23:41:58Z resttime: jsgrant-: My experience with Common Lisp is that examples are much more prominent 2015-10-09T23:41:59Z Shinmera: There was just less of everything. 2015-10-09T23:42:11Z resttime: Errr as in, examples vs documentation 2015-10-09T23:43:14Z jabooti: resstime: I tend to pick up binary dists, esp for things like sdl, I avoid bothering with making systems build on windows then using the artifacts 2015-10-09T23:45:19Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:45:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:46:02Z resttime: jabooti: Hmmm, you can try relying on local directory search 2015-10-09T23:47:20Z resttime: jabooti: I think I figured out the behaviour of it, and put it in a readme here https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro 2015-10-09T23:47:38Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:47:51Z resttime: In the FAQ section of the readme 2015-10-09T23:49:44Z jsgrant-: I'd imagine that the commercial Lisp implementations/environments like LispWorks are pretty well documented. But I guess I only think that because they are a central authority in which they can enforce such policy. :^P 2015-10-09T23:50:21Z akkad: first rule of #lisp is we don't mentioned commercial versions :P 2015-10-09T23:51:20Z jsgrant-: Well it's not as if it was a support query, just a general implementation (in one of the weakest senses) one. 2015-10-09T23:52:37Z jabooti: resstime: I see that, thanks. I envision maintaining my own binary pack and just including an explicit call to add the directory to cffi search paths, else idk. Thanks for the link 2015-10-09T23:53:35Z resttime: jabooti: No problem, keep in mind that most of anything includes a local directory search 2015-10-09T23:53:44Z resttime: (Usually that is) 2015-10-09T23:54:05Z jsgrant-: Ultimately, I think I'm just going to stick my head deep down into CL + Elisp and the related ecosystems for the end of the year and go from there. Overall though, very excited -- just probably need to detach myself from preconceptions I've had with other systems such as Racket or similar. 2015-10-09T23:55:13Z Shinmera: jsgrant-: CL generally has a strong sense of "I do what I want because I know what I need". Which is great for some things and pretty shitty for other things. 2015-10-09T23:55:27Z Shinmera: Generally though diversity is something you're more likely to see than convergence. 2015-10-09T23:56:19Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T23:56:23Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-09T23:56:31Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-09T23:56:49Z jcmdln quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-09T23:56:53Z jsgrant-: Shinmera: Isn't that Lisp in general though to a degree? That certianly feels aprox what I felt floating around in Scheme-lang 2015-10-09T23:57:12Z Shinmera: I only really know CL, so I can't comment on that. 2015-10-09T23:57:52Z resttime: jsgrant-: Common lisp is an adventure! 2015-10-09T23:58:29Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:01:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:04:41Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-10T00:07:52Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:09:05Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T00:10:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:10:41Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T00:11:19Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:16:46Z PuercoPop: jsgrant-: There is a port of scribe for CL, http://cliki.net/Exscribe (Not widely used afaik). There is also a cl domain for sphinx: https://github.com/russell/sphinxcontrib-cldomain which I would recommend 2015-10-10T00:18:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:18:45Z jsgrant-: PuercoPop: There's Scriba I know too, but Exscribe looks interesting. Also thanks for the CLDomain link. 2015-10-10T00:22:21Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-10T00:28:53Z PuercoPop: jsgrant-: it is what djula uses for documentation btw 2015-10-10T00:34:45Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T00:36:35Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T00:36:48Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:37:45Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:39:07Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:39:42Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:50:07Z pjb: jsgrant-: I MANDATE you to use my derived of lispdoc to generate your documentation! 2015-10-10T00:50:19Z pjb: jsgrant-: there, you have a mandate. 2015-10-10T00:50:54Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:50:55Z ``Erik_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:51:05Z cluck` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T00:52:10Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:52:30Z cluck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T00:53:05Z cluck` quit (Read error: 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It appears not from the SBCL manual 2015-10-10T04:52:14Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T04:54:57Z pjb: PuercoPop: you can do that with cl-stepper. 2015-10-10T04:56:07Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-10T04:56:22Z eazar001 is now known as like-a-sycophant 2015-10-10T04:56:33Z like-a-sycophant is now known as like-a-minion 2015-10-10T04:56:47Z like-a-minion is now known as eazar001 2015-10-10T04:58:27Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:01:54Z PuercoPop: pjb: do you mean your stepper, which doesn't have the cl prefix? Going to look into into 2015-10-10T05:02:29Z pjb: There's a nickname "CL-STEPPER" to the package name. 2015-10-10T05:02:45Z pjb: (find-package "CL-STEPPER") #| --> # |# 2015-10-10T05:03:15Z PuercoPop: pjb: but ql:system-apropos searches for system name not package nicknames 2015-10-10T05:03:20Z pjb: Indeed. 2015-10-10T05:03:41Z pjb: (quick-apropos "STEPPER") #| # … |# 2015-10-10T05:05:06Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-10T05:05:25Z PuercoPop: yeah, that is how I found it, but asked just in case to make sure we were talking about the same 2015-10-10T05:05:28Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:06:08Z pjb: we are. 2015-10-10T05:09:22Z clop joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:10:00Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:11:10Z PuercoPop: pjb: from reading the documentation I have to change the package definition to use cl-stepper instead of the cl package and then I can use step-trace-function right? 2015-10-10T05:11:21Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-10T05:11:32Z pjb: You have to change CL to CL-STEPPER and recompile. 2015-10-10T05:11:54Z pjb: CL-STEPPER provides macros for CL special operators and a few CL macros that instrument the code. 2015-10-10T05:11:59Z pjb: (conformingly). 2015-10-10T05:12:18Z pjb: so you will be using CL-STEPPER:LAMBDA instead of CL:LAMBDA ;-) 2015-10-10T05:13:27Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:14:03Z PuercoPop: Hmm, Maybe I should try to make the function not anonymous first. The function I want to trace lives in the property list of a keyword!!! (I didn't write the code) and that is on the list of things to fix. 2015-10-10T05:15:01Z pjb: If you recompile or reload everything after s/CL/CL-STEPPER/ in the package, it should be ok. Unless they used cl:lambda instead of lambda. In this case you'd have to s/cl/cl-stepper/ in the sources too. 2015-10-10T05:15:33Z rhg135 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:16:07Z jsgrant- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T05:16:26Z pjb: On the other hand, some libraries won't replace things they installed previous, like in property lists… In that case you might have to reboot your lisp. 2015-10-10T05:30:53Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:31:11Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:32:15Z Niac quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T05:32:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T05:32:15Z Natch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T05:32:21Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T05:32:51Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:33:22Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:33:22Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:34:24Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:36:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs apply 2015-10-10T05:36:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-10-10T05:37:11Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:40:09Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:40:11Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:41:52Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:42:19Z lokulin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:42:19Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:43:11Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:43:52Z larme joined #lisp 2015-10-10T05:44:44Z doodlehaus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T05:45:41Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This wouldn't be called too often, so I'm not really concerned about the speed. Are there any other uses for restart system other than error handling? 2015-10-10T12:58:04Z shka: malice: progress bar in quicklisp is written this way (iirc) 2015-10-10T12:58:57Z shka: but honestly, I don't think that using signals this way is a great idea 2015-10-10T12:59:05Z shka: it is like poor man yank 2015-10-10T13:00:35Z loke`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T13:00:38Z loke``` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:01:11Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:01:39Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:02:27Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:03:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:05:33Z flip214: malice: why not just provide a callback function down? 2015-10-10T13:05:42Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:07:21Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:07:48Z shka: i would go for object oriented approach 2015-10-10T13:07:54Z shka: but that's just me 2015-10-10T13:09:24Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:09:39Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:10:19Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:11:35Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:16:18Z sulky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:16:19Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T13:16:19Z loke```` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:16:42Z loke``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T13:17:51Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:18:13Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:18:31Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-10-10T13:22:23Z loke```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T13:22:30Z loke```` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:23:39Z sulky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T13:24:11Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:25:36Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:25:58Z nicdev_` is now known as nicdev 2015-10-10T13:28:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:29:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T13:29:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:29:26Z sulky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T13:35:03Z sulky joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:38:42Z daimrod quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:38:56Z zygentoma^bus quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-10T13:39:49Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:43:21Z gacepa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:45:43Z DeadTrickster: Xof, ping! 2015-10-10T13:46:57Z DeadTrickster: Xof, I want to use your pipe macro from here: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/code_walking_for_pipe_sequencing/. What is the license? 2015-10-10T13:47:41Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: were you looking for me a few days ago? 2015-10-10T13:47:57Z DeadTrickster: I asked you about license too :-) 2015-10-10T13:48:10Z DeadTrickster: You replied by the way 2015-10-10T13:48:51Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:49:29Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, also I would like to notice you I detached my clws fork from your repo, hope this is ok for you: https://github.com/deadtrickster/clws 2015-10-10T13:51:08Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:52:16Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:52:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:52:27Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T13:57:36Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:58:29Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-10T13:58:36Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:01:48Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:02:04Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-10T14:03:11Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:05:47Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:09:32Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:12:27Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:12:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:13:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:13:59Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-10T14:21:39Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:21:50Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:23:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:24:43Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T14:25:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T14:26:44Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:31:23Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:36:03Z digiorgi quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:37:55Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-10T14:42:11Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:42:16Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-10-10T14:42:41Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:45:25Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-10T14:52:00Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:52:49Z Ven quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-10T14:58:54Z theos joined #lisp 2015-10-10T14:59:12Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T14:59:18Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:02:49Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:03:04Z rtoym: Can an operator add CMUCL 21a to the topic? 2015-10-10T15:06:20Z nyef: New CMUCL release? 2015-10-10T15:06:39Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:06:54Z theos left #lisp 2015-10-10T15:08:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T15:11:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:12:09Z kakdelatmaski joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:12:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:12:25Z papachan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:12:46Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-10T15:16:31Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:17:46Z hitecnologys: rtoym: as far as I remember, everyone can modify topic. 2015-10-10T15:21:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:22:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:24:57Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T15:25:23Z kakdelatmaski quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-10T15:26:09Z nyef: hitecnologys: I can see from the channel mode that that's not currently the case. 2015-10-10T15:26:23Z nyef: hitecnologys: The +t channel mode is a topic lock. 2015-10-10T15:26:25Z hitecnologys: nyef: oh, yeah, indeed. 2015-10-10T15:26:43Z hitecnologys: nyef: eh, good old times… 2015-10-10T15:27:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:29:05Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:29:12Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:29:16Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-10T15:29:58Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:31:43Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:36:39Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:39:43Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:40:48Z rootwang joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:41:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:43:19Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:43:24Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T15:43:24Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:44:02Z Xof: DeadTrickster: use under whatever terms you want 2015-10-10T15:46:39Z DeadTrickster: Xof, thanks a lot! I would like to give you credits? Right now it is "Pipe macro (examples/pipe.lisp) copy-pasted from here: 2015-10-10T15:46:39Z DeadTrickster: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/code_walking_for_pipe_sequencing/" 2015-10-10T15:47:08Z DeadTrickster: Xof, sounds good? 2015-10-10T15:48:43Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:48:44Z Xof: sure 2015-10-10T15:49:11Z tmokros quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T15:49:15Z DeadTrickster: cool 2015-10-10T15:50:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:50:10Z leafybasil quit 2015-10-10T15:51:19Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:53:14Z rootwang quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T15:54:49Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:55:49Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T15:56:14Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:58:39Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T15:58:39Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T15:58:48Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-10T15:59:55Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:00:01Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:00:18Z papachan left #lisp 2015-10-10T16:00:26Z c74d3a quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T16:01:08Z cabaire quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T16:01:24Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:02:42Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T16:03:20Z c74d3a joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:03:54Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:10:18Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:10:25Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T16:11:27Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:17:49Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:22:00Z jackdaniel: rtoym: congrats :) Is there any announcement? 2015-10-10T16:28:53Z mood: jackdaniel: This was posted to /r/lisp 8 days ago: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/wikis/Release21a 2015-10-10T16:33:15Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:33:50Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-10T16:34:35Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:34:43Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:35:08Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T16:35:31Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-10-10T16:35:50Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:39:11Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-10T16:56:02Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T16:59:47Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:00:06Z jackdaniel: mood: thanks 2015-10-10T17:02:12Z kjak_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:04:07Z oleo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:05:31Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:06:15Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:10:12Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:10:17Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:12:34Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:13:55Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:16:22Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-10T17:16:44Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T17:16:44Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:20:25Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:25:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:25:57Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:25:59Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2015-10-10T17:26:01Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted|CMUCL 21a, ECL 16.0.0, CFFI 0.16.0, ASDF 3.1.5, cl-launch 4.1.4, SBCL 1.2.13, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1 2015-10-10T17:26:11Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 2015-10-10T17:26:58Z p_l: rtoym: done 2015-10-10T17:28:58Z fikusz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:29:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:30:58Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:31:31Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:32:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:37:39Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:38:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:43:23Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:43:50Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T17:44:18Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:46:05Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:47:35Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:48:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:48:59Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:51:57Z ajf-: I'm defining some functions, but when I execute them, the output shows like: 2015-10-10T17:52:01Z ajf-: func1 2015-10-10T17:52:02Z ajf-: func2 2015-10-10T17:52:04Z ajf-: > result 2015-10-10T17:52:16Z ajf-: almost like when you do a (round) operation and it returns two values 2015-10-10T17:52:19Z ajf-: can I avoid this? 2015-10-10T17:52:26Z ajf-: (not sure if my question is clear) 2015-10-10T17:52:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:53:52Z ajf-: func1 and func2 are being used inside 2015-10-10T17:54:27Z futpib quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T17:55:14Z jackdaniel: ajf-: if you don't want to have printed return value of the function you can do something like (prog1 (values) (func1) (func2)) 2015-10-10T17:55:45Z jackdaniel: wrong 2015-10-10T17:55:51Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T17:55:54Z jackdaniel: (progn (func1) (func2) (values)) 2015-10-10T17:56:01Z jackdaniel: if you want prog1 then you have to use m-v-b 2015-10-10T17:56:17Z elektrichka joined #lisp 2015-10-10T17:56:28Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-prog1 (values) (func1) (func2)) 2015-10-10T17:57:06Z jackdaniel: is this what you were asking? 2015-10-10T17:58:50Z ajf-: mmm I'm not sure 2015-10-10T17:58:53Z ajf-: can I show you my code? 2015-10-10T17:58:59Z jackdaniel: sure, paste it on paste.lisp.org 2015-10-10T17:59:07Z jackdaniel: and post link here 2015-10-10T17:59:22Z jackdaniel: s/link/a link/ 2015-10-10T17:59:49Z ajf-: Here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156562 2015-10-10T18:00:22Z elektrichka quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T18:00:25Z ajf-: Sorry there's a typo 2015-10-10T18:00:31Z ajf-: let me do the paste again jackdaniel 2015-10-10T18:00:41Z jackdaniel: sure, you may paste it as an annotation to the first paste 2015-10-10T18:01:26Z ajf-: ok yes, here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156562#1 2015-10-10T18:01:42Z ajf-: so my problem is when executing for example: (harmonic-series-hertz 'a4 8) 2015-10-10T18:02:01Z ajf-: I see the following (sorry for the flood): 2015-10-10T18:02:11Z jackdaniel: add another annotation :p 2015-10-10T18:02:15Z jackdaniel: with the output ;) 2015-10-10T18:02:21Z ajf-: ah ok 2015-10-10T18:02:28Z jackdaniel: with what you get and what you expect to have 2015-10-10T18:02:32Z jackdaniel: that would be the easiest 2015-10-10T18:02:38Z jackdaniel: to parse for me 2015-10-10T18:03:18Z ajf-: ok here is the output http://paste.lisp.org/display/156562#2 2015-10-10T18:03:26Z ajf-: and the expected value is just the return value at the end 2015-10-10T18:03:35Z ajf-: without all those pitch-to-midi lines 2015-10-10T18:03:39Z ajf-: can you see my problem? 2015-10-10T18:04:59Z jackdaniel: could you paste also a function "pitch-to-midi ? I suspect you have some print statement in it 2015-10-10T18:05:28Z ajf-: it's part of the opusmodus program, I can't see its source (that I know of) 2015-10-10T18:05:59Z jackdaniel: ah, the external dependency 2015-10-10T18:06:09Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-10T18:07:19Z ajf-: in the same fashion, the other two functions also produce print statements 2015-10-10T18:07:26Z ajf-: for each of the external functions I'm using 2015-10-10T18:07:28Z ajf-: do you need to see those too ? 2015-10-10T18:08:23Z jackdaniel: I suspect that these functions print their name when called (maybe you have enabled some debug in opusmodus library?) 2015-10-10T18:08:41Z ajf-: not that I know of, and it's unlikely that's activated by default 2015-10-10T18:09:02Z ajf-: however, when running them individually 2015-10-10T18:09:05Z ajf-: they DO print 2015-10-10T18:09:20Z ajf-: > (pitch-to-midi 'c4) \n pitch-to-midi \n 60 2015-10-10T18:09:28Z jackdaniel: you could redirect standard-output to a dummy stream 2015-10-10T18:09:50Z ajf-: that sounds complex 2015-10-10T18:10:53Z jackdaniel: no, not really, just wrap the call with, hrm, (let ((*standard-output* (make-string-output-stream))) (harmonic-series-…)) 2015-10-10T18:11:12Z phf: :) not at all, (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) forms) should do the trick 2015-10-10T18:11:30Z phf: or what jackdaniel said 2015-10-10T18:12:07Z jackdaniel: phf's solution is more estetic, go with it :P 2015-10-10T18:12:33Z ajf-: alright let me try this out 2015-10-10T18:13:15Z mood: You could also redirect to an empty broadcast-stream, to avoid the useless string being created 2015-10-10T18:13:26Z bin7me quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T18:13:42Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T18:14:58Z jackdaniel: but printing the function name should really belong to the debug stuff, and given we have trace it shouldn't be there at all imo :| 2015-10-10T18:15:11Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:15:16Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T18:15:16Z ajf-: problem is it seems like (with-output-to-string) converts the output to a string no ? 2015-10-10T18:15:36Z ajf-: the result is I'm getting a bad type error 2015-10-10T18:15:46Z phf: :o 2015-10-10T18:15:49Z ajf-: let me put what I did as an annotation 2015-10-10T18:15:55Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:15:57Z jackdaniel: sure 2015-10-10T18:16:11Z mood: ajf-: Yes. Try (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) ...) 2015-10-10T18:16:46Z jackdaniel: type error? o_O 2015-10-10T18:16:51Z ajf-: yes! works =) 2015-10-10T18:17:00Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T18:17:03Z ajf-: haha no, no "type error", i'm just calling it like that 2015-10-10T18:17:09Z ajf-: but "is not of the expected type..." 2015-10-10T18:17:20Z jackdaniel: this is a type error :p 2015-10-10T18:17:23Z phf: i'm curious why that would be the case 2015-10-10T18:17:26Z ajf-: but yeah (let ..... works great mood, jackdaniel 2015-10-10T18:17:46Z mood: It's quite obvious really. WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING returns a string 2015-10-10T18:18:01Z jackdaniel: yeah, didn't think about it :p 2015-10-10T18:18:32Z jackdaniel: anyways, great you have your problem solved. hf with further development ;) 2015-10-10T18:19:42Z jackdaniel: ym: #C is a read macro, it doesn't see it's lexical environment 2015-10-10T18:19:45Z ajf-: here's the working result: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156562#4 2015-10-10T18:19:47Z ajf-: thanks =) 2015-10-10T18:20:57Z jackdaniel: ajf-: btw use make-broadcast-stream there 2015-10-10T18:21:18Z jackdaniel: you won't create unnecessary string in memory 2015-10-10T18:21:19Z Bike: doesn't look like... yeah, you're not actually using the stream, so just make it something like that 2015-10-10T18:22:00Z jackdaniel: s/memory/the memory/ 2015-10-10T18:22:26Z ajf-: instead of "make-string-output-stream", "make-broadcast-stream" ? jackdaniel 2015-10-10T18:22:34Z Bike: yeah. 2015-10-10T18:22:35Z jackdaniel: yeah 2015-10-10T18:22:37Z ajf-: ok 2015-10-10T18:23:26Z ajf-: works great =) 2015-10-10T18:23:27Z ajf-: thanks a lot 2015-10-10T18:24:09Z jackdaniel: that's how we score the "helpful community" points ;-) 2015-10-10T18:24:46Z ajf-: definitely. I would be hitting a wall if it wasn't for this channel 2015-10-10T18:25:59Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2015-10-10T18:26:52Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:27:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:29:59Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T18:30:49Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:32:56Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:34:02Z phf: i see hunchentoot broke in the latest cmucl release. might even be usocket level, going to investigate, but anyone looked into the issue by any chance? 2015-10-10T18:34:41Z raazdaan joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:34:59Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-10T18:35:19Z akkad: yeah I had to go with aserve on cmucl 2015-10-10T18:35:35Z kdas__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-10T18:35:40Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T18:38:58Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T18:39:41Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:39:45Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T18:39:56Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:41:07Z rtoym: jackdaniel: Oh, it was announced on the cmucl list, but not on c.l.l. I should probably do that. 2015-10-10T18:55:01Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-10-10T18:56:50Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T18:59:56Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T19:06:09Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:06:11Z dvb_ua quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-10T19:06:18Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-10T19:08:11Z phf: rtoym: that unix package split seems to break a bunch of things. swank backend and usocket's cmucl backend 2015-10-10T19:17:25Z akkad: what is cmucl still used for? 2015-10-10T19:18:04Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:18:17Z phf: mostly as a "why are you not using sbcl" conversation starter, apparently ;) 2015-10-10T19:18:43Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-10T19:21:22Z raazdaan left #lisp 2015-10-10T19:23:48Z akkad: sbcl is dead, use ccl 2015-10-10T19:24:54Z oleo: ??? 2015-10-10T19:24:57Z akkad: sbcl is sort of the gentoo cc -OMG crowd of lisp 2015-10-10T19:24:59Z jackdaniel: undermining other people effort isn't nice thing at all 2015-10-10T19:25:01Z jackdaniel: :| 2015-10-10T19:26:45Z akkad: sbcl is run by barbaroi 2015-10-10T19:27:17Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T19:27:55Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T19:28:51Z cades joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:30:22Z doodlehaus quit 2015-10-10T19:32:28Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:33:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-10T19:35:16Z ggole quit 2015-10-10T19:36:26Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T19:37:28Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:39:19Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T19:39:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:40:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:43:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:48:37Z francogrex: akkad: bullshit. both ccl and sbcl are very much alive a kicking 2015-10-10T19:48:58Z akkad: language? 2015-10-10T19:49:42Z akkad: xemacs is a live and kicking too 2015-10-10T19:51:21Z Ober: francogrex: his point was everyone asks "why use cmucl, it's dead, upgrade to sbcl" when someone brings up a cmucl question 2015-10-10T19:51:54Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T19:52:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:53:26Z brandonz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:54:29Z brandonz_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-10T19:55:32Z edi2 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T19:55:54Z francogrex: Ober: he has no point 2015-10-10T19:55:58Z edi2: anyone had hunchentoot issues on the latest? 2015-10-10T19:56:36Z akkad: francogrex: good point. 2015-10-10T19:57:10Z Ober: francogrex: the infantile response to sarcasm is clearly a sign 2015-10-10T19:57:23Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-10T19:58:05Z edi2: is francogrex being a pita again? 2015-10-10T19:58:11Z akkad: yeah... usual self 2015-10-10T19:58:23Z edi2: you expect different? 2015-10-10T19:58:55Z Ober: just add him to ignore and be done with it 2015-10-10T19:59:55Z akkad: edi2: yeah someone else reported that a little while ago above. the logs are in the title 2015-10-10T20:00:09Z edi2: thanks 2015-10-10T20:02:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:10:30Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:12:33Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:14:40Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:16:31Z digiorgi: (asdf:load-system :my-system :force t) simply ignores the ":force t". It doesn't compile and loads again my project if it has now new modifications. It that normal? 2015-10-10T20:16:35Z digiorgi: is* 2015-10-10T20:17:14Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:19:40Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:25:09Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:27:13Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:27:46Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:33:39Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:36:01Z digiorgi: OMG..... i used the ":force-not t" and works.... jajajaja 2015-10-10T20:38:50Z digiorgi: sorry... not yet fixed 2015-10-10T20:42:22Z ski_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:42:58Z nyef_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:43:02Z yang_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:43:08Z tessier_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:43:23Z shookees_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:43:27Z farhaven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:43:38Z gucore joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:44:46Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:44:47Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:44:49Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:47:29Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:47:34Z john-mca` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:48:14Z ivan4th` joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:50:57Z TakumoKatekari joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:50:57Z TakumoKatekari quit (Changing host) 2015-10-10T20:50:57Z TakumoKatekari joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:51:16Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:52:33Z nyef quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-10T20:52:38Z nyef_ is now known as nyef 2015-10-10T20:53:33Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:53:33Z john-mcaleely quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:53:33Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:53:34Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:54:39Z fridim_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:39Z shookees quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:39Z psy_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z yeticry quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z qr42 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z ivan4th quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z yang quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z Takumo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:40Z nullFxn_ quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:54:41Z nimiux quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-10T20:55:09Z qr42 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:55:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:56:23Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:57:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-10T20:58:01Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-10T20:59:51Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-10-10T21:00:14Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:00:14Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:00:14Z nullFxn_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:00:14Z nimiux joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:02:19Z phoe_krk: ( 2015-10-10T21:03:52Z resttime: ) 2015-10-10T21:04:09Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:04:52Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:04:53Z renard_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:04:53Z renard_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:06:12Z nullFxn_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-10T21:06:13Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-10T21:07:05Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:07:31Z nullFxn joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:07:44Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:09:49Z schweers joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:10:13Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-10T21:11:15Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:12:32Z pjb: DNA analysis indicates that we all descend from only 8 different mothers. At the same time, it's hard to imagine there was only 8 women on Earth: most probably, the children of the millions of other women died off without leaving any grand*daughter. 2015-10-10T21:12:33Z farhaven_ is now known as farhaven 2015-10-10T21:12:48Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:13:12Z pjb: Similarly, a implementation that is nearly dead by any definition you might have, may still be fertile in survivors. You never know. 2015-10-10T21:15:06Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:18:30Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-10T21:19:43Z digiorgi: (: it's a nice concept. 2015-10-10T21:20:05Z dmh joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:20:59Z francogrex: a true concept, evolution is everywhere 2015-10-10T21:25:43Z dmh quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-10T21:26:59Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:27:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:27:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:28:08Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:28:41Z pjb: Perhaps a few nuclear bombs will destroy all the copies of sbcl, and only an old throw away hard disk with a copy of clisp will be recovered by archeologiest in 1000 years, and lisp will have a new golden age, based on clisp? :-) 2015-10-10T21:29:33Z UtkarshRay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:31:00Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:31:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:31:32Z p_l|backup quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:31:41Z AeroNotix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:31:55Z antoszka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:32:08Z eagleflo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:32:41Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:32:45Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:32:53Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:33:08Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:09Z mood_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:15Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:17Z antoszka joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:17Z AeroNotix joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:24Z p_l|backup joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:34Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:33:37Z mood_ is now known as mood 2015-10-10T21:33:56Z phoe_krk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T21:33:58Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:34:00Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-10T21:34:03Z minion joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:34:34Z dwchandl1r joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:34:47Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:34:59Z Xof: who is the archeologiest archaeologist? 2015-10-10T21:35:05Z Neet_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:35:53Z hratsimi1ah joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:35:57Z ogamita1 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:36:34Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Only found dead aliens. 2015-10-10T21:46:54Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T21:48:40Z martinhath joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:48:57Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:48:58Z ngrud joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:49:00Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T21:49:13Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:49:23Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:49:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:49:33Z jonh joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:50:04Z solfu left #lisp 2015-10-10T21:50:36Z wyan joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:51:24Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:51:28Z torpig joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:52:50Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-10T21:53:12Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:53:13Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-10T21:53:53Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:53:53Z rj-code joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:54:04Z rj-code quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-10T21:54:08Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:54:15Z rj-code joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:54:23Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:55:31Z eazar001_ is now known as eazar001 2015-10-10T21:56:19Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:56:35Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T21:57:26Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-10T21:59:42Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:01:28Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:03:59Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:05:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:07:16Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-10T22:12:47Z shookees_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:13:39Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:14:31Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-10T22:19:13Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-10T22:20:48Z ajf-: DeadTrickster not an expert but when I've got package QL problems it's a quicklisp issue 2015-10-10T22:22:08Z Bike: QL is the quicklisp package, yes. 2015-10-10T22:25:46Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-10T22:26:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:26:38Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:29:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:30:41Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:30:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:31:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:33:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:37:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-10T22:41:10Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:41:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:43:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-10T22:45:34Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Continue? (y or n)' - I know I've gotten (and fixed) it before, but can't remember what I dd 2015-10-11T02:32:44Z ahungry: Anyone know where the referenced history file may be so i can just clear it out? 2015-10-11T02:32:58Z ahungry: s/dd/did 2015-10-11T02:33:08Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds) 2015-10-11T02:33:15Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T02:34:29Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T02:34:29Z victor_lowther quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T02:34:59Z ahungry: Ahh...ok spoke much too soon, the fix was ~/.slime-history.eld and ~/.#.slime-history.eld# backup file (deleting both resolved) 2015-10-11T02:36:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-11T02:38:01Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-11T02:41:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-11T02:42:04Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-11T02:44:52Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-11T02:46:54Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:00:51Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T03:05:48Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T03:06:18Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:11:00Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:11:05Z normanrichards quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-11T03:16:18Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T03:23:16Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:23:39Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T03:26:06Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:26:06Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T03:28:21Z gz joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:29:27Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:34:19Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T03:34:21Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T03:41:09Z tahr56902 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:41:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T03:44:37Z badkins_ quit 2015-10-11T03:46:35Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-11T03:49:08Z tahr56902 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T03:55:59Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-11T03:56:30Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:56:42Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T03:56:46Z jsgrant_ is now known as jsgrant 2015-10-11T03:58:20Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:58:20Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:58:21Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-10-11T03:59:39Z phf: edi2: yes, i'm having hunchentoot issues on the latest. tbh i can't figure out if it's my environment, or cmucl or usocket or what. my current guess is that something's wrong with unix:* stuff, but i've not had a chance to explore it since last time i mentioned it earlier today 2015-10-11T04:01:44Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:05:07Z kdas_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-11T04:06:26Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T04:07:47Z phf: edi2: in any case, simply doing (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) and then trying to connect to it gives me "interrupted system call" inside usocket::wait-for-input-internal, and that's returned by unix:unix-fast-select 2015-10-11T04:12:59Z phf: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/cmucl.lisp#L285-L291 looks like that whole chunk is randomly failing. since err is ignored, the actual error is from count value of nil getting passed into <=. adding (unix:get-unix-error-msg err) says that the error is "interrupted system call" 2015-10-11T04:15:05Z smokeink quit (Quit: Angelic v4.4 - http://angelic.flexnet.org) 2015-10-11T04:15:32Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:16:13Z werzul joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:25:22Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:25:26Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:25:29Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:25:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-11T04:25:39Z phf: hunchentoot still failing, but my scattershot conclusions above are wrong 2015-10-11T04:28:58Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T04:30:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:31:18Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-11T04:33:51Z keen__________10 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:35:01Z keen___________9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T04:35:13Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T04:35:19Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T04:38:26Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:39:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:41:12Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:44:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T04:46:41Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T04:47:30Z werzul quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-11T04:49:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-11T04:52:09Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-11T05:09:27Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T05:12:05Z phoe6 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-11T05:27:23Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-10-11T05:39:41Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-11T05:39:44Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-11T05:42:38Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-11T05:59:14Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:07:42Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-11T06:11:51Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T06:11:57Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:17:41Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:25:22Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2015-10-11T06:26:03Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-10-11T06:27:34Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-11T06:28:34Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:29:40Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:34:18Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-11T06:36:36Z beach: Having to restart the computer after a kernel update really sucks. Now, all my 36 workspaces that I carefully created over the course of several weeks must be created again. And even if the kernel has not been updated, I still have to restart the web browser after it has been updated. This is really a sub-optimal situation. 2015-10-11T06:41:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-11T06:46:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-11T06:54:00Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-11T07:01:12Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:02:09Z psy joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:05:19Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-11T07:05:39Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T07:08:39Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-11T07:13:16Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:13:16Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T07:15:11Z gucore joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:15:53Z psy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T07:16:56Z psy joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:17:20Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-11T07:23:22Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:24:30Z mrSpec: Hello! I'm trying to create my first meta-class, and I cant figure out what am I missing that (defmethod foo ((o my-meta-class)) …) is not called, but (defmethod foo ((o t)) …) is. 2015-10-11T07:24:34Z mrSpec: Code example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156581 2015-10-11T07:25:04Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:25:57Z beach: Why is FOO specialized to MY-META-CLASS rather than to MY-CLASS. 2015-10-11T07:26:02Z beach: s/./?/ 2015-10-11T07:26:30Z beach: You care calling FOO with an instance of MY-CLASS, not with the class MY-CLASS. 2015-10-11T07:28:23Z mrSpec: I want to make foo work on all instances of my-meta-class 2015-10-11T07:28:50Z beach: Then why are you calling it with an instance of MY-CLASS and not with an instance of MY-META-CLASS? 2015-10-11T07:29:31Z mrSpec: ah, I think I got the point! 2015-10-11T07:30:13Z mrSpec: (foo (class-of (make-instance 'my-class))) works… 2015-10-11T07:31:25Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:31:45Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-11T07:32:18Z stardiviner 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2015-10-11T18:22:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T18:22:58Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:23:08Z H4ns: csguest__: we can look at common lisp programs 2015-10-11T18:23:15Z H4ns: csguest__: use paste.lisp.org 2015-10-11T18:23:25Z csguest__: It's scheme 2015-10-11T18:23:48Z H4ns: csguest__: go to #scheme 2015-10-11T18:23:58Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:25:13Z csguest__: true 2015-10-11T18:25:18Z csguest__: can i ask another question though 2015-10-11T18:25:27Z csguest__: what is the difference between scheme and common lisp? 2015-10-11T18:25:34Z H4ns: csguest__: they're different languages 2015-10-11T18:25:47Z csguest__: Syntax? 2015-10-11T18:25:48Z H4ns: csguest__: they differen like c++ is different from java 2015-10-11T18:25:53Z csguest__: true okay 2015-10-11T18:27:20Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:29:05Z Cthulhux`: H4ns, that does not quite fit 2015-10-11T18:29:28Z Cthulhux`: scheme was one of common lisp's predecessors, regardless of the fact that it's still continued. 2015-10-11T18:29:33Z H4ns: Cthulhux`: thanks, your opinion is noted. 2015-10-11T18:29:35Z jackdaniel: I'd say CL is to scheme like C++ is to C 2015-10-11T18:29:46Z Cthulhux`: jackdaniel, ^ 2015-10-11T18:29:59Z jackdaniel: (yet I prefer C over C++ :p) 2015-10-11T18:30:55Z Cthulhux`: csguest__, basically scheme is a subset of common lisp (less featureful) with a slightly more intuitive syntax. 2015-10-11T18:31:05Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-11T18:31:22Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:31:42Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T18:31:52Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:31:52Z dstatyvka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T18:39:05Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-11T18:39:40Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:45:01Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:45:06Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:45:17Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:45:58Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:47:05Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-11T18:47:54Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:48:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:48:53Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:49:01Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:49:04Z dim: I've read that R7RS is providing more features than CL? 2015-10-11T18:49:37Z Shinmera: So it has CLOS? 2015-10-11T18:49:39Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:49:51Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:51:42Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:53:35Z doodlehaus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:55:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:56:14Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:57:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T18:57:30Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-11T18:57:58Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T18:59:22Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-11T18:59:25Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-11T19:04:27Z dim: guile (a scheme from GNU) as GOOS, dunno if it made it to r7rs 2015-10-11T19:04:42Z ahungry: I thought r7rs had like 100 libraries to choose from? 2015-10-11T19:04:48Z ahungry: quicklisp is over 1200 2015-10-11T19:04:49Z dim: also I don't think GOOS is actually comparable to CLOS 2015-10-11T19:04:55Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:05:54Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T19:06:37Z ahungry: oops I was thinking of srfi 2015-10-11T19:14:13Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:14:36Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T19:24:15Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-11T19:25:04Z |3b| wonders which part of CL is a "superset" of full continuations in scheme 2015-10-11T19:26:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:26:15Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T19:28:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:28:43Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-11T19:29:03Z phoe6 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-11T19:31:50Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:36:45Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:38:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:38:45Z DeadTrickster: it is 2015, continuations in CL still not possible? 2015-10-11T19:39:03Z dstatyvka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T19:39:16Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:39:30Z ggole quit 2015-10-11T19:40:09Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:43:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-11T19:46:14Z knicklux: hi there, i'm trying to get my hands on lisp and stumbled over that one: 2015-10-11T19:46:15Z knicklux: ;; now let's put them both together 2015-10-11T19:46:15Z knicklux: (defvar *one* 1) 2015-10-11T19:46:15Z knicklux: => *ONE* 2015-10-11T19:46:15Z knicklux: (let ((one 1.0)) 2015-10-11T19:46:16Z knicklux: (+ one *one*)) 2015-10-11T19:46:18Z knicklux: => 2.0 2015-10-11T19:46:25Z lieven: standard CL hasn't changed in decades. That being said, I'm not convinced full continuations are a good idea. 2015-10-11T19:46:34Z knicklux: why can't i simply replace ((one 1.0)) with (one 1.0)? 2015-10-11T19:46:43Z pjb: Because that's the syntax. 2015-10-11T19:46:56Z H4ns: knicklux: you can't because it would not be syntatically correct 2015-10-11T19:47:05Z pjb: Same reason why if(a==0); cannot be writen if a==0; in C> 2015-10-11T19:47:07Z pjb: C. 2015-10-11T19:47:45Z pjb: knicklux: now, of course, the reason why there are two parentheses is because bindings is a list of lists. 2015-10-11T19:47:55Z pjb: (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (+ a b c)) #| --> 6 |# 2015-10-11T19:47:56Z H4ns: knicklux: the let form takes any number of variable definitions. each can either consist of a bare variable name or a variable name and its initialization form, in parentheses. 2015-10-11T19:48:14Z knicklux: pjb, an alist then? 2015-10-11T19:48:21Z pjb: No, just a list. 2015-10-11T19:48:49Z pjb: knicklux: notice that the initialization expression is optional (without it it's initialized to NIL), so you can write: (let ((empty) void) (list empty void)) #| --> (nil nil) |# 2015-10-11T19:48:50Z H4ns: knicklux: (let (one 1.0) ...) would thus be interpreted as "create two local variables, one named "one" and one named "1.0"", and "1.0" is not a valid variable name. 2015-10-11T19:49:08Z pjb: (let (a b) (list a b)) #| --> (nil nil) |# 2015-10-11T19:49:26Z knicklux: ok, i got it :) thx 2015-10-11T19:49:28Z H4ns: knicklux: parentheses always have a particular meaning. they are not the same thing as parentheses in arithmetic expressions. 2015-10-11T19:49:58Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T19:51:49Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-11T19:52:11Z knicklux: ((one 1.0)) returns a list conaining one and 1.0 and this list is needed to be given to let as a list, because it will there be used as a key/value pair and not as a sequence of items 2015-10-11T19:54:09Z csguest__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-11T19:54:50Z pjb: knicklux: no, ((one 1.0)) cannot return anything, since it's not a valid form. 2015-10-11T19:55:31Z pjb: knicklux: ((one 1.0)) is read as a list containing a list containing a symbol named "ONE" and one of the floating point number 1.0. 2015-10-11T19:56:12Z pjb: As the first argument of a LET form, it's a binding list. LET will then create a variable named with the symbol, and bind it to the value of evaluating the form 1.0 2015-10-11T19:57:59Z knicklux: yes. i should've written "is" instead of "returns" ^^ 2015-10-11T19:58:55Z knicklux: isn't 1.0 in this case an atom? 2015-10-11T19:59:09Z pjb: It is. 2015-10-11T19:59:13Z pjb: It is also a form. 2015-10-11T19:59:22Z pjb: When you evaluate 1.0, you get 1.0. 2015-10-11T19:59:29Z pjb: It's a self-evaluating atom. 2015-10-11T19:59:32Z knicklux: ok, and as you wrote it is a form too as it gets evaluated? 2015-10-11T19:59:41Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-11T19:59:50Z pjb: forms are sexps intended to be evaluated. 2015-10-11T20:02:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:02:19Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:02:26Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:03:32Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:03:58Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:04:11Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:05:29Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-11T20:08:16Z gacepa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-11T20:11:50Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2015-10-11T20:14:41Z malice joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:15:13Z malice: Hey guys, is there some way to access the class object from the class? I am looking for something like *this in C++. 2015-10-11T20:15:57Z malice: I want to do something like (defclass x () ((first) (second :initform (method-using-first-from-x *this)))) 2015-10-11T20:18:20Z Shinmera: You can't. 2015-10-11T20:18:37Z Shinmera: The usual way to remedy this is to define an :after method on initialize-instance. 2015-10-11T20:18:44Z Shinmera: PCL explains this. 2015-10-11T20:22:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:23:24Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:24:23Z proxenus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:24:56Z proxenus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T20:32:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:34:34Z MasterNayru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T20:34:36Z psy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T20:35:36Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:36:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:36:36Z Ven quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: another question on: ;; now let's put them both together 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: (defvar *one* 1) 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: => *ONE* 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: (let ((one 1.0)) 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: (+ one *one*)) 2015-10-11T20:37:39Z knicklux: => 2.0 2015-10-11T20:37:49Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:37:50Z knicklux: why is (one 1.0) not quoted? 2015-10-11T20:38:12Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:38:20Z knicklux: wouldn't lisp try to evaluate the sexp and find that there is no function named "one" ? 2015-10-11T20:38:36Z oGMo: knicklux: LET is a special operator 2015-10-11T20:38:45Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:38:47Z oGMo: knicklux: but, you could do similar with macros 2015-10-11T20:39:26Z knicklux: ok, thanks 2015-10-11T20:39:48Z jlarocco_: is there a guide or tutorial or any kind of reference for using declare? 2015-10-11T20:40:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:40:43Z Beluki: jlarocco_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_declar.htm 2015-10-11T20:40:44Z jlarocco_: i run into the same problem every time I try to use it, which is all the references clhs, cltl, etc. basically say, "use declare to declare variable types", but don't really say what types are available 2015-10-11T20:41:08Z jlarocco_: yeah, I understand the concept 2015-10-11T20:41:10Z oGMo: _types_ are something else 2015-10-11T20:44:24Z Beluki: jlarocco_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 2015-10-11T20:44:31Z jlarocco_: well it's not very clear 2015-10-11T20:44:43Z jlarocco_: for example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32321054/using-declare-type-but-still-have-safe-functions 2015-10-11T20:44:58Z jlarocco_: uses (declare (fixnum x) ...) 2015-10-11T20:46:39Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T20:48:51Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:49:43Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:50:48Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:50:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:54:56Z doodlehaus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:55:09Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-11T20:55:13Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T20:59:15Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:59:16Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-10-11T20:59:43Z nullFxn quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-11T21:04:39Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-11T21:05:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:06:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:06:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:06:39Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:06:45Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:06:46Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-11T21:08:24Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-11T21:11:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:14:09Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:14:10Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:15:15Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:25:04Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:25:09Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-11T21:25:13Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:28:05Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:30:45Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-11T21:32:43Z fe[nl]ix: Any bostonians around? 2015-10-11T21:35:02Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:40:39Z gucore quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:40:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:41:03Z MasterNayru joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:42:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:43:31Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:44:31Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:45:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:45:18Z MasterNayru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T21:50:53Z MasterNayru joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:54:33Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:55:27Z nyef: fe[nl]ix: For some value of "bostonian" and "around", maybe? 2015-10-11T21:56:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:59:07Z MasterNayru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:59:23Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T21:59:30Z MasterNayru joined #lisp 2015-10-11T21:59:30Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-11T22:01:55Z mea-culpa` is now known as mea-culpa 2015-10-11T22:02:30Z zm1 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:03:08Z monod joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:03:42Z MasterNayru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-11T22:05:20Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-11T22:12:40Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:13:03Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:14:14Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: I plan to have dinner around 20:00 2015-10-11T22:15:08Z nyef: Ah, tonight? 2015-10-11T22:15:17Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T22:15:41Z fe[nl]ix: Yes 2015-10-11T22:16:30Z nyef: Ah, damn. I'm actually on-call right now, and have some backlogged work besides. /-: 2015-10-11T22:17:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:19:38Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:20:28Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:24:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T22:24:54Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: I understand. Anyway, I'm available for dinner pretty much any night, besides the Lisp meeting 2015-10-11T22:25:27Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:26:24Z nyef: Schedule conflict, or going to the meeting? 2015-10-11T22:27:46Z fe[nl]ix: I'm going to the meeting, but for the rest of the week I don't want to dine at work or by myself somewhere else :-) 2015-10-11T22:27:53Z nyef: Ahh. 2015-10-11T22:29:14Z nyef: Well, barring insanity at work, I might be able to meet up once or twice over the course of the week. 2015-10-11T22:31:58Z fe[nl]ix: Awesome, just let me know when you're free 2015-10-11T22:32:32Z nyef: Will you be online tomorrow, so that we can discuss then? 2015-10-11T22:34:00Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T22:35:06Z nyef: ... Hold that thought. I need to make a food run, and my on-call is only going to be covered for about an hour, so I have to head out now. Back in about an hour. 2015-10-11T22:37:30Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-11T22:41:19Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:42:22Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:42:58Z zm1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:44:58Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:51:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:52:18Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:53:14Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:53:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:54:10Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:54:40Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-11T22:57:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-11T22:57:18Z drmeister: bit-vectors - can they be adjustable and have fill-pointers? 2015-10-11T22:57:33Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T22:57:51Z {AS} quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-11T22:58:23Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T22:58:32Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-11T23:02:57Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-10-11T23:03:54Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-11T23:04:35Z drmeister: Apparently yes - those of SBCL can be. If any kind soul remembers off the top of their head what page of the CLHS describes this and could post it I'd be most appreciative. I've searched for about 5 min and haven't located it. 2015-10-11T23:05:26Z knobo-net quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-11T23:09:23Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-11T23:09:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T23:13:21Z akkad: drmeister: http://linbsd.org/clhs.org ? 2015-10-11T23:13:59Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-11T23:14:46Z knobo-net joined #lisp 2015-10-11T23:16:11Z pjb: drmeister: it's clhs bit-vector, which starts with: System Class BIT-VECTOR Class Precedence List: bit-vector, vector, array, sequence, t 2015-10-11T23:16:11Z pjb: 2015-10-11T23:16:17Z pjb: everything's in that. 2015-10-11T23:21:05Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-11T23:28:11Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-11T23:33:03Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-11T23:33:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-11T23:37:00Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-11T23:45:11Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-11T23:45:36Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 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seconds) 2015-10-12T04:46:06Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-10-12T04:46:53Z moei joined #lisp 2015-10-12T04:48:38Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-12T04:49:33Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-12T04:55:40Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:01:46Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T05:01:47Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:05:13Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Will this have predictable handling of the closure across implementations? 2015-10-12T05:05:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+3CVL 2015-10-12T05:06:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: (particularly of the STOP variable) 2015-10-12T05:07:37Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-12T05:12:31Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:12:46Z phf: fiddlerwoaroof: eight ball says yes 2015-10-12T05:13:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: phf: thanks, the docs for bordeaux-thread:make-thread are a bit confusing. 2015-10-12T05:14:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wasn't sure if "caller" meant any lexical scope "up" or only the innermost scope 2015-10-12T05:14:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation 2015-10-12T05:15:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:18:05Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T05:18:19Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-12T05:18:33Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:19:50Z phf: fiddlerwoaroof: well, no, the api docs say that it's undefined, but since that's the behavior at least in ccl,sbcl,cmucl,lispworks it also tells you not to depend on "particular behavior" 2015-10-12T05:20:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah, I guess I have to figure out some other way of getting the effect I want. 2015-10-12T05:21:04Z sheilong quit (Quit: Shall I?) 2015-10-12T05:21:25Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-12T05:22:59Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:23:16Z phf: if you didn't point at the docs, i would not have known this is not a portable behavior :o i've been relying on it all over the place 2015-10-12T05:23:43Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:28:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) pjb pointed me to the docs once, but I'm not sure exactly how to work around it in the example I'm using. A special variable? 2015-10-12T05:32:56Z phf: that'll only work (trivially) if you want to shut down all the updates at the same time 2015-10-12T05:40:26Z {AS} joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:40:36Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-12T05:43:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:45:26Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T05:56:09Z DNoved1 quit (Quit: ()) 2015-10-12T05:57:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:59:21Z snits joined #lisp 2015-10-12T05:59:24Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:00:53Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:01:47Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T06:05:34Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: Check the logs on planet.lisp.org for an entry on lock free intercommunication between threads. 2015-10-12T06:06:30Z pillton: I remember reading a trick which I used in C++ project. I can't remember how it was done in lisp. 2015-10-12T06:07:27Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:08:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:09:57Z Desmaad joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:10:27Z Desmaad quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-12T06:10:40Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:17:39Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T06:19:12Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:19:47Z raphaelss quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-12T06:21:49Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-10-12T06:26:09Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:29:30Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:31:46Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:32:25Z TheDuckEllington joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:36:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:44:19Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:44:36Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-12T06:44:59Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-12T06:45:02Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-12T06:45:07Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:46:25Z jlarocco_: where does the processor cycles number output by (time ...) come from? 2015-10-12T06:48:20Z jlarocco_: I'm comparing output on two machines and one takes about twice the time as the other, and I noticed its processor cycles number was also twice as high 2015-10-12T06:48:36Z Bike: depends on implementation 2015-10-12T06:48:40Z Bike: eg sbcl uses rtdsc sometimes 2015-10-12T06:48:51Z jlarocco_: oh, oops, I thought I was in #sbcl 2015-10-12T06:48:53Z Bike: rdtsc* 2015-10-12T06:49:09Z jlarocco_: but that would be the answer I'm looking for, I think 2015-10-12T06:49:23Z jlarocco_: or wait, maybe not 2015-10-12T06:49:48Z jlarocco_: I'd expect rdtsc to be the same 2015-10-12T06:50:17Z jlarocco_: the disassembly on each machine is the same size and appears to be the same 2015-10-12T06:51:33Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:54:27Z TheDuckEllington is now known as KilometersDavis 2015-10-12T06:55:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:57:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-12T06:58:06Z KilometersDavis is now known as LightyearsDavis 2015-10-12T07:01:15Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:03:35Z jlarocco_: hm, I just checked the source, it is definitely using rdtsc 2015-10-12T07:04:25Z jlarocco_: but I checked the processors, and the slow one is a 3.6 Ghz i5, and the fast one is a 2.6 Ghz i7, so that must be causing it 2015-10-12T07:06:37Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:07:17Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:08:26Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:09:46Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:10:46Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:12:41Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-12T07:13:06Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:13:37Z Bugboy1028 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:16:46Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-12T07:17:29Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T07:18:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:18:56Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:24:14Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-12T07:25:09Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Although some of the code there is not from him but collected from somewhere else. 2015-10-12T08:52:08Z shka: aha! 2015-10-12T08:52:13Z shka: good to know 2015-10-12T08:52:24Z shka: pjb: ignore that :P 2015-10-12T08:54:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:00:33Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T09:01:24Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:02:36Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T09:04:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:05:06Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:06:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:06:37Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:06:42Z native_killer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T09:06:59Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:07:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:11:11Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-12T09:11:33Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:16:00Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T09:16:26Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:16:39Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:19:28Z john-mca` is now known as john-mcaleely 2015-10-12T09:21:42Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:22:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:22:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:22:43Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:25:09Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T09:26:49Z Zabaq joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:28:02Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:28:21Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:29:28Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:31:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-12T09:34:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:35:09Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-12T09:36:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T09:39:59Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:40:35Z rick-mon` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T09:40:51Z rick-mon` joined #lisp 2015-10-12T09:59:09Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-12T10:01:14Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-12T10:02:20Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I tried LIBS= from configure and it didn't work. 2015-10-12T13:47:36Z jackdaniel: you mean ecl library with another static library 2015-10-12T13:47:48Z jackdaniel: I tought you mean something like in examples/embed 2015-10-12T13:47:55Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Is that how to do it? 2015-10-12T13:48:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T13:48:23Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Would I need to modify the build somehow? 2015-10-12T13:49:01Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2015-10-12T13:49:20Z jackdaniel: if you want to add static library to ecl.so then you might check how it's done with asdf (when provided with builtin option) 2015-10-12T13:49:35Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh...good idea. Thank you. 2015-10-12T13:50:04Z jackdaniel: if you just want to add it to your application (prefered behavior), then check examples/ directory 2015-10-12T13:50:12Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-12T13:50:18Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T13:50:21Z jackdaniel: also: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re55.html 2015-10-12T13:50:43Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Well, I could just copy the repl code (main()) and compile it with the statics. 2015-10-12T13:51:34Z jackdaniel: I think that what you need is the mentioned example "embed". Be sure to take ECL from repository head (develop branch) - some stuff was broken earlier 2015-10-12T13:52:27Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-12T13:52:55Z jackdaniel: also to play with builds you may check examples/build 2015-10-12T13:52:59Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Well, something still is. I could not compile with g++. There are a couple for(int i; ....) and a function with an argument which is not defined. 2015-10-12T13:54:04Z jackdaniel: compile what? there is a makefile in the directory (if you talk about "embed") 2015-10-12T13:54:20Z warweasle: jackdaniel: ECL itself. 2015-10-12T13:54:27Z warweasle: jackdaniel: So I had to use master. 2015-10-12T13:54:35Z warweasle: the master branch rather. 2015-10-12T13:54:37Z jackdaniel: develop doesn't build? hm 2015-10-12T13:55:10Z warweasle didn't want to write an issues again a development build. Also, I'm using the latest gcc. 2015-10-12T13:55:23Z jackdaniel: could you tell your configure options? 2015-10-12T13:55:53Z jackdaniel: if you hit any bugs on develop please fill the issue if you have time 2015-10-12T13:56:22Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-12T13:56:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T13:56:32Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Ok. I'm just trying to not be annoying. I'll get my stuff set up tonight and see if it's still there. 2015-10-12T13:57:19Z jackdaniel: right. I probably should write in the wiki or somewhere, that develop should be stable 2015-10-12T13:57:24Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-10-12T13:57:57Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-12T13:58:07Z warweasle hasn't been using ECL but had an idea and wanted to try it out. Generally, write in ECL but use ECL to compile plain C. Then sculpt my program. 2015-10-12T13:59:14Z akkad: H4ns: do people tend to use hunchentoot for virtual hosts? 2015-10-12T13:59:20Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T13:59:45Z zygentoma is now known as zygentoma^bus 2015-10-12T14:00:05Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T14:00:11Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand but unfortunately I've got to go now. I'll take a look at the issue if it still persists at friday though 2015-10-12T14:00:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:00:44Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Thanks for the pointer. 2015-10-12T14:02:14Z jackdaniel: compilation problem might be caused by a num_rand changes (they are C99 dependant and default C++ of GCC isn't compatible - I believe that moving "int x" outside the for loops should fix it 2015-10-12T14:02:29Z jackdaniel is afk 2015-10-12T14:02:42Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-12T14:03:15Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T14:07:15Z DrCode quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-12T14:12:49Z Beluki quit (Quit: Beluki) 2015-10-12T14:14:23Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:14:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:17:22Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:19:44Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T14:20:02Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:20:23Z loke````: jackdaniel: -std=c99 ? 2015-10-12T14:21:26Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T14:24:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:24:46Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:29:04Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:30:50Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T14:33:58Z ivan4th` quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2015-10-12T14:35:29Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-12T14:36:42Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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But semantically they're different enough. 2015-10-12T18:41:43Z pjb: Cesarum was the library built by Caesar over the sinders of Alexandria. 2015-10-12T18:42:10Z pjb: A serapeum was a temple dedicated to the syncretic Hellenistic-Egyptian god Serapis, who combined aspects of Osiris and Apis. 2015-10-12T18:44:39Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-12T18:45:03Z pjb: Now, of course there was a serapeum in Alexandria; but it was about 3 km South from the library. 2015-10-12T18:45:21Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/maps/search/Serapeum+Alexandria/@31.1956841,29.885291,14z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=en 2015-10-12T18:45:35Z pjb: (it was at the Pompey's Pillar). 2015-10-12T18:50:16Z shka: pjb: i know which one is which, it just does not attach to the lisp library 2015-10-12T18:53:59Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-12T18:56:48Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:01:33Z fe[nl]ix_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-12T19:01:46Z bungoman joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:02:28Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:02:35Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:05:00Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T19:08:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:08:48Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:12:21Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T19:12:25Z pinupgeek_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:13:11Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:15:17Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:15:40Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:17:16Z elektrichka joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:18:23Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T19:18:59Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:19:44Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:22:53Z WizJin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T19:25:07Z |nix| joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:31:44Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:33:42Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:35:04Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-12T19:36:39Z _sjs quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-12T19:39:05Z [1]mike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T19:42:03Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:46:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:46:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T19:46:29Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:47:15Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:50:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:53:48Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-12T19:53:48Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T19:54:25Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:55:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:56:31Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:56:52Z doodlehaus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T19:57:09Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:57:59Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T19:58:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:00:54Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:05:03Z elektrichka quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-12T20:05:14Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:05:39Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:05:39Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T20:07:31Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-12T20:08:19Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T20:08:54Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:09:41Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:12:51Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:12:51Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:13:52Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:15:57Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:16:48Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:16:50Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-12T20:17:17Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:18:23Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-12T20:18:40Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:20:58Z bogwonch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:21:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:21:11Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-12T20:22:50Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:23:51Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T20:24:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T20:30:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:30:30Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-12T20:31:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I mean that I want to pass a list as an argument to the method, and modify the original list, not the copy. 2015-10-12T21:30:08Z malice: Actually by #'push 2015-10-12T21:31:08Z Shinmera: It's all pass by value. The value is just a reference. 2015-10-12T21:31:48Z Shinmera: So you get two choices to get around that: 1) write a macro 2) box it 2015-10-12T21:32:12Z malice: Well I'm fine with using closure. 2015-10-12T21:32:17Z malice: Thanks! 2015-10-12T21:32:23Z nyef: Note that there is no #'PUSH, as PUSH is a macro, not a function. 2015-10-12T21:32:26Z Shinmera: I'm not talking about closures, but whatever makes you happy. 2015-10-12T21:32:32Z malice: Okay. 2015-10-12T21:33:33Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-12T21:33:59Z badkins quit 2015-10-12T21:34:17Z phf: if you're trying to mutate a list, you always have an exciting option of setfing cdr of last to a list with new values 2015-10-12T21:34:40Z malice: Is that safe? 2015-10-12T21:36:11Z phf: it's an O(n) append operation, that's probably not the best solution for whatever it is you're trying to do, but is available for when you actually need it 2015-10-12T21:36:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's an example in the CLHS, so it probably isn't terrible. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_setf_.htm 2015-10-12T21:37:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-12T21:40:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-12T21:41:56Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T21:44:39Z pinupgeek_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-12T21:44:39Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T21:46:56Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-12T21:47:19Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-12T21:47:41Z opal joined #lisp 2015-10-12T21:49:25Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-12T21:53:03Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-12T21:53:21Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: working late today ? 2015-10-12T21:54:01Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-12T21:55:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-12T21:55:13Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-12T21:58:23Z nyef: fe[nl]ix: Unfortunately, it seems so. 2015-10-12T21:58:36Z nyef: I'm hoping to be out-from-under the worst by tomorrow afternoon, though. 2015-10-12T21:58:43Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T21:58:59Z fe[nl]ix: roger 2015-10-12T22:00:44Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:01:34Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:02:56Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-12T22:03:11Z victor_lowther joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:03:40Z splittist joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:04:31Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T22:05:09Z reb`` joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:05:29Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:05:35Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:06:19Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-12T22:07:23Z reb` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-12T22:09:04Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-12T22:12:56Z pilne joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:16:22Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:17:24Z gz joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:17:35Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:18:19Z opal left #lisp 2015-10-12T22:20:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:21:22Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:22:08Z rpg: In SLIME, is there some way to force sending all of a presentation (from the debugger) to the repl? When I do this, I'm getting an unreadable pretty-printer form going to the REPL, instead of the full form I need.... 2015-10-12T22:23:12Z rpg: Actually what I really want is to paste this form into a test file, but I don't get the full form, only a form with ellipses in it. 2015-10-12T22:23:37Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T22:24:05Z rpg: For example, I see: #(60 -48.2 40.5 -20.3 69 -29 ...) but I want the full vector. 2015-10-12T22:24:28Z pilne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T22:24:35Z Bicyclidine: do you not just have *print-length* set? 2015-10-12T22:25:34Z rpg: What I really want here is *PRINT-READABLY* 2015-10-12T22:25:45Z pilne joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:26:21Z rpg: I have trapped in the debugger a form that causes an error, and I want to be able to reinvoke it at will by pasting that form into an editor buffer. 2015-10-12T22:28:07Z rpg: ah. I have a work-around: if I TRACE the function, I get a form that I *can* just save into an editor buffer. 2015-10-12T22:29:32Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-12T22:31:01Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:34:20Z ebrasca` is now known as ebrasca 2015-10-12T22:35:43Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:37:05Z MartianLove joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:39:04Z zwdr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T22:39:11Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:42:07Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-12T22:42:58Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-12T22:44:01Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-12T22:46:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:49:48Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:51:22Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-12T22:55:37Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:56:55Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-10-12T22:59:22Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T23:03:57Z XachX joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:07:24Z fade joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:10:55Z pjb: malice: your concepts are all wrong. 2015-10-12T23:11:04Z pjb: malice: lisp passes all the arguments by value already. 2015-10-12T23:11:16Z pjb: malice: () is an IMMUTABLE list! 2015-10-12T23:12:03Z pjb: malice: you actually seem to want pass-by-reference. Have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2015-10-12T23:13:52Z pjb: malice: this might not be a very good idea. An alternative is to store the list in an object (any object, a cons cell, a vector, a structure, whatever), pass this object normally (ie. by value, which for these objects is actually a reference), so you can mutate the object, hence mutate the list contained, even when it's (), because you won't be mutating the list, but the object. 2015-10-12T23:14:57Z pjb: (defstruct list-adt list) (defun add-element (list-adt) (push '* (list-adt-list list-adt))) (let ((list (make-list-adt))) (add-element list) (add-element list) (list-adt-list list)) #| --> (* *) |# 2015-10-12T23:18:20Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-12T23:18:44Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-12T23:22:42Z phoe_krk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-12T23:23:18Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:23:35Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T23:26:35Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:27:37Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-12T23:30:11Z ebrasca is now known as ebrasca-afk 2015-10-12T23:39:01Z dxtr quit (Quit: Quit.) 2015-10-12T23:44:09Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-12T23:46:50Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-12T23:49:20Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-12T23:49:39Z ebrasca-` joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:49:55Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:51:26Z ebrasca-afk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-12T23:52:03Z justinmburrous joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:53:16Z brunov0id quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-12T23:55:02Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-12T23:55:39Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-12T23:58:15Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-12T23:59:30Z malice left #lisp 2015-10-13T00:00:06Z brunov0id quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:00:37Z christop1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:05:22Z kristof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-13T00:05:25Z arpunk quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-13T00:07:28Z justinmburrous quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:10:49Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:12:31Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:14:54Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:17:01Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:17:19Z christop1 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:17:34Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-13T00:18:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:18:47Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:22:21Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:22:23Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:22:36Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:28:40Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-13T00:32:22Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:33:22Z bungoman_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:36:47Z bungoman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:37:55Z bungoman_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-13T00:43:24Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:49:01Z MartianLove quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-13T00:52:26Z White_Flame: jlarocco_: different CPU models take different numbers of cycles to execute the same instructions, especially when it comes to internal parallelism. i5 vs i7 will easily show such a differece 2015-10-13T00:52:39Z White_Flame: difference 2015-10-13T00:52:56Z tmokros joined #lisp 2015-10-13T00:56:48Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T00:59:41Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:05:31Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T01:09:37Z bungoman joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:11:19Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-13T01:11:57Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:12:40Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:13:47Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:13:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:14:37Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-13T01:15:28Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T01:24:40Z ebrasca-` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T01:32:15Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:32:31Z earl-ducaine left #lisp 2015-10-13T01:32:55Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:34:45Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:35:26Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:35:44Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:43:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:44:37Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:45:18Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:46:17Z loke: Hello Lisp 2015-10-13T01:47:56Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:49:01Z keen__________12 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:49:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T01:50:27Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T01:51:08Z keen__________11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T01:55:50Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-13T01:59:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:05:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T02:07:40Z rtoym: phf: Does the unix package split still break things if you do (require :unix)? Slime should work, so I would expect swank to work. 2015-10-13T02:16:24Z phf: rtoym: no, it seems like i was wrong re unix package, sorry for false alarm. 2015-10-13T02:17:15Z rtoym: phf: No worries. I did accidentally break asdf and slime in the first version, so I wouldn't have been surprised if more broke. (Some is expected of course.) 2015-10-13T02:17:35Z phf: i'm running into issues with hunchentoot and usocket, but i've never tried running them under cmucl to beging with, so for all i know they haven't worked for a while now. i patched some usocket code to at least not throw errors, but now hunchentoot seems to sit on a lock. since nobody chimed in with any comments, i assume that nobody runs hunchentoot on cmucl and that it basically requires work 2015-10-13T02:19:26Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:20:04Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:20:35Z phf: but in the process of debugging hunchentoot i also started running into issues with cmucl/slime debugger interaction. sometimes it locks, sometimes there's an error in swank code, sometimes it fails to restart. i'm basically thinking that my environment is in heisenbug state and until i reason through it myself, it's just going to be a mess. i've resigned to my fate :) 2015-10-13T02:20:47Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:25:09Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:26:49Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:27:48Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:28:23Z ogamita quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T02:28:28Z ogamita1 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:30:50Z ogamita1 is now known as ogamita 2015-10-13T02:32:09Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:35:02Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-13T02:35:54Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T02:36:25Z pilne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T02:37:55Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:43:01Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:45:24Z cmoneylulz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T02:48:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:51:08Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:54:26Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:56:48Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T02:56:52Z ASau quit (Changing host) 2015-10-13T02:56:52Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-13T02:57:00Z loke: Is there a way to ensure that a variable is dynamically bound? I.e. I want to (setq *some-dynamic-variable* ...) but I want to ensure that there is an enclosing (let (*some-dynamic-variable*) ...) surrounding it somewhere higher in the stack. 2015-10-13T02:57:43Z loz joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:00:44Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:00:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:02:58Z nyef: loke: I doubt that there's a portable mechanism. 2015-10-13T03:03:22Z loke: All right. Perhaps there is a better way to solve my underlying problem... Here's the deal: 2015-10-13T03:03:39Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T03:05:24Z loke: I have a function (find-current-session) that essentially does (or *session* (setq *session* (some-expensive-initialisation))). This is a hunchentoot web application, and the dispatcher wraps everything with a (let ((*session* nil)) (DO-PRETTY-MUCH-EVERYTHING)) 2015-10-13T03:06:11Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:06:54Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:07:13Z loke: However, I needed to use hunchensocket, which uses a different dispatcher, meaning that by enclosing LET didn't happen, which meant that the _global_ instance of *session* was used, meaning that all users ended up using the same *session* instance (for websocket stuff). I didn't notice this because I was only testing with one user... 2015-10-13T03:07:24Z nyef: And you don't always want to find the current session for every request? 2015-10-13T03:07:27Z loke: What I want to ensure is that this can never happen again. 2015-10-13T03:08:08Z loke: nyef: The session is different for different users. The lookup uses a cookie, as well as checks authentications and authoeirsations. 2015-10-13T03:08:13Z loke: authorisations. 2015-10-13T03:08:58Z nyef: ... So? The only reason to be lazy about setting it up is that the lookup is expensive and not every request needs to know the session. 2015-10-13T03:09:36Z pillton: Can't you just have a function which returns the object bound in the global environment and compare? 2015-10-13T03:09:37Z loke: nyef: exactly. 2015-10-13T03:10:30Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:10:43Z nyef: So, how about this, (defvar *session-lookup-function* (lambda () (error "someone is calling FIND-SESSION outside of the dynamic contour of WITH-SESSION-CONTEXT"))) ? 2015-10-13T03:10:48Z loke: You mean find-current-session could do (assert (null (symbol-value '*session*))) ? 2015-10-13T03:11:20Z nyef: Then introduce WITH-SESSION-CONTEXT as a macro to bind both *SESSION* and *SESSION-LOOKUP-FUNCTION*. 2015-10-13T03:11:35Z loke: Ah yes. I see 2015-10-13T03:11:54Z jfe: i'm reading the lisp 1.5 programmer's manual, and i'm a little confused about the definition of apply on page 13. if the first argument to apply is CAR, then the caar of the argument list 'x' passed to apply is returned. but this assumes that the car of the argument list is a cons; couldn't it very well be a symbol that needs to be looked up in the environment? 2015-10-13T03:12:23Z nyef: You pay an extra bind for each request, and an extra symbol-lookup and funcall for each time you try to find the session. 2015-10-13T03:14:35Z jfe: i.e. the way it's written (in M-expressions) is apply[fn;x;a] = [atom[fn] -> [eq[fn;CAR] -> caar[x]; ...] ...], where fn is a function expression, x is the argument list, and a is the environment assoc list. 2015-10-13T03:15:53Z pillton: Apply should be a function. 2015-10-13T03:16:18Z nyef: jfe: I don't have my copy of the 1.5 manual handy, but... IIRC, the parameters to apply are evaluated in a separate step. 2015-10-13T03:16:50Z loke: Is the manual for Lisp 1.5 written using M-expressions? 2015-10-13T03:17:41Z jfe: loke: seems to be 2015-10-13T03:18:23Z guardianL joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:19:52Z jfe: here, i took a screenshot of what i'm talking about: http://imgur.com/t6l9dOh 2015-10-13T03:20:05Z jfe: evalquote[fn;x] = apply[fn;x;nil] 2015-10-13T03:21:35Z jfe: there is a comment about how the apply/eval given there are "pedagogical devices," so i can absolutely forgive mccarthy et. al. if that definition of apply takes some liberties. i'm just trying to understand. 2015-10-13T03:22:39Z guardianL quit (Quit: Community garden workshop, teach me to rake and hoe-oe!) 2015-10-13T03:22:44Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:22:54Z loke: It is interesting how the M-expressions in the document is indented very nicely but actual Lisp code for the next decare or so was an unreadable mess of forms with linebreaks at random locations. 2015-10-13T03:24:30Z jfe: loke: heh, i noticed that too. 2015-10-13T03:24:54Z nyef: jfe: It looks like evalquote[fn;x] treats x as not needing further evaluation; that is, as if it were quoted. 2015-10-13T03:25:37Z nyef: jfe: Note how eval[e;a] behaves when given a list. 2015-10-13T03:27:41Z jfe: nyef: ahh. i see it. 2015-10-13T03:27:57Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T03:29:11Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:30:46Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:31:30Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-13T03:31:37Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:31:42Z bandrami joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:33:09Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:36:55Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:44:48Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:47:21Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:49:37Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T03:49:43Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:52:16Z opal joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:53:02Z earl-ducaine: Has any taken a look at the old Lucid archive? https://archive.org/details/archiveteam-lucid-collection 2015-10-13T03:53:30Z earl-ducaine: It contains an early versiot of Liquid Common Lisp 2015-10-13T03:54:10Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-10-13T03:54:11Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T03:54:11Z earl-ducaine: But also a demo of the Energize ide which they developed after switching focus from Lisp to C++ 2015-10-13T03:54:12Z earl-ducaine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQTScuApWk 2015-10-13T03:54:41Z phf: earl-ducaine: xach had a posted about the archive on his blog, but i've not heard of anyone actually doing more then a cursory dive. 2015-10-13T03:55:02Z earl-ducaine: And all the C++ code for the Energize ide, essensially a module for xemacs writen in C++. 2015-10-13T03:55:26Z phf: http://xach.livejournal.com/323713.html 2015-10-13T03:56:08Z bungoman quit 2015-10-13T03:58:14Z earl-ducaine: An interesting piece of trivia, it contains on old resume of Jammie jwz (in ps format) from before he was signed on to Lucid. 2015-10-13T03:58:51Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T04:00:25Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:00:44Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:02:25Z opal left #lisp 2015-10-13T04:03:19Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:06:45Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-13T04:07:43Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:09:39Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-13T04:09:50Z Plas joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:10:59Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:11:14Z nowhereman quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-13T04:13:45Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:13:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-13T04:14:02Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:14:10Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:14:28Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-13T04:14:39Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:15:24Z wemeetagain_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T04:16:24Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:18:36Z Plas quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-13T04:19:48Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:22:30Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:22:34Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:22:39Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T04:29:03Z drmeister: Hello - check it out: 2015-10-13T04:29:20Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/yGDif5S.png 2015-10-13T04:30:02Z beach: Congratulations! 2015-10-13T04:30:10Z djinni` quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T04:30:18Z beach: What is SFML? 2015-10-13T04:31:01Z pillton: Simple and Fast Multimedia Library. 2015-10-13T04:31:09Z pillton: http://www.sfml-dev.org 2015-10-13T04:31:24Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-13T04:31:33Z pillton: ... or yet another multimedia library. 2015-10-13T04:31:44Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/aIvL5TLf/ 2015-10-13T04:32:08Z drmeister: Look ma! No FFI. 2015-10-13T04:32:42Z drmeister: Or none that was touched by human hands. 2015-10-13T04:32:48Z pillton: Nice. 2015-10-13T04:33:04Z loke: drmeister: What is SFML? 2015-10-13T04:33:26Z drmeister: Simple and Fast Multimedia Library. 2015-10-13T04:34:00Z loke: drmeister: Did you autogenerate C→Lisp mappings? 2015-10-13T04:34:01Z drmeister: It is a C++ library that provides access to OpenGL, sound, mouse, joystick etc. 2015-10-13T04:34:14Z bandrami quit (Quit: bandrami) 2015-10-13T04:34:20Z pillton: drmeister: You're missing out on all the fun. 2015-10-13T04:34:49Z drmeister: Note: I didn't write the interface between SFML and Clasp - that was done by flash-, who is away at the moment. I just got it working with the new Clasp. 2015-10-13T04:35:06Z pillton: Who doesn't like writing FFI bindings? 2015-10-13T04:35:18Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:35:26Z drmeister: I have programs that do that for me now. 2015-10-13T04:35:35Z loke: pillton: I don't mind it actually. Which is why two of my QL libraries are CFFI bindings 2015-10-13T04:35:39Z drmeister: And you could too. 2015-10-13T04:35:47Z beach: Some people like to drive cars too I hear. 2015-10-13T04:36:16Z pillton loathes writing FFI bindings. 2015-10-13T04:36:36Z beach: I figured it was rhetorical question. 2015-10-13T04:37:31Z djinni` joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:37:52Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:39:06Z pillton: loke: Damn. I've had enough of it. 2015-10-13T04:39:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:39:21Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:40:09Z jackc-_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:40:10Z |nix|` joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:40:40Z pillton: loke: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc/blob/master/src/overlapped-io-cffi.lisp#L136 2015-10-13T04:40:57Z pillton: loke: I lost it that day. 2015-10-13T04:42:01Z jackc- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:42:01Z |nix| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T04:42:35Z kalloc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:43:28Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:43:43Z kalloc joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:44:47Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-13T04:45:01Z pillton: beach: What are you working on? 2015-10-13T04:45:47Z beach: pillton: I am doing some preventive maintenance on the Cleavir module for generating an AST from source code, in order to prepare for source tracking. 2015-10-13T04:46:09Z beach: In parallel, I am also working on SICL bootstrapping, in particular bootstrapping CLOS. 2015-10-13T04:46:13Z beach: pillton: You? 2015-10-13T04:47:22Z pillton: beach: I remember the chapter in the AMOP book about bootstrapping. It doesn't sound like fun. 2015-10-13T04:47:35Z beach: Oh, I can do better than that. 2015-10-13T04:47:44Z beach: They assume something that is no longer true. 2015-10-13T04:48:00Z pillton: Cool! A new book! 2015-10-13T04:48:08Z duallist joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:48:11Z beach: ... namely that there are no Common Lisp implementations out there that already contain the full MOP. 2015-10-13T04:48:11Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:48:39Z pillton: Really? 2015-10-13T04:48:46Z beach: Maybe a new book someday. Certainly an article that I hope will be accepted by ELS. 2015-10-13T04:49:16Z pillton: Is the meta object protocol fully specified somewhere? 2015-10-13T04:49:44Z beach: The AMOP is as good as you get. It is not as well written as the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2015-10-13T04:49:56Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:50:00Z pillton: There you go. Time to write the book. 2015-10-13T04:50:04Z pillton: You have one customer. 2015-10-13T04:50:17Z beach: I'll keep that in mind. 2015-10-13T04:50:19Z pillton: That should cover the first 2 hours. 2015-10-13T04:50:47Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:50:59Z beach: One paying customer? Sure. 2015-10-13T04:51:21Z beach: pillton: Are you aware of my ILC paper: http://metamodular.com/satiation.pdf ? 2015-10-13T04:51:35Z duallist quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-13T04:51:37Z pillton: No! 2015-10-13T04:51:58Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T04:52:39Z Jameser` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T04:52:42Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:53:10Z pillton thanks beach for making his todo list longer. 2015-10-13T04:53:27Z beach: Anytime! :) 2015-10-13T04:53:30Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-13T04:53:36Z pillton: I'm still digesting the first class environments one. 2015-10-13T04:54:00Z beach: Actually, you should take the ACM reference for the published paper: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2635648.2635656&coll=DL&dl=GUIDE&CFID=552842788&CFTOKEN=96541576 2015-10-13T04:54:49Z beach: pillton: What does that mean? 2015-10-13T04:55:15Z jfe` joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:55:39Z jfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T04:56:11Z pillton: I was going to use it to explore performing macroexpansion in the runtime environment. 2015-10-13T04:56:48Z beach: Oh, now I understand what you were saying. Heh! 2015-10-13T04:57:22Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-13T04:58:45Z pillton: I have a bit more reading to do before I'm comfortable with the idea. 2015-10-13T04:59:13Z beach: There is no rush as far as I can tell. 2015-10-13T04:59:55Z pillton: Yeah. The subject is covered in the LISP book (reflection and evaluation from memory). 2015-10-13T05:03:30Z pillton: I'll have to read the satiation paper. I skipped over that bit with my alternative to CLOS. 2015-10-13T05:04:33Z beach: Like I said, take your time. I will gladly answer any questions you might have. 2015-10-13T05:04:46Z pillton: Cheers. 2015-10-13T05:05:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:05:31Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:06:08Z PlasmaStar quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-13T05:06:11Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T05:06:25Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:08:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:09:16Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-13T05:09:50Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T05:11:10Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:11:39Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:13:40Z pillton: beach: Is it you that is maintaining a list of things for the next version of common lisp? 2015-10-13T05:13:45Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T05:14:25Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-13T05:15:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:18:41Z beach: Sort of. 2015-10-13T05:19:03Z beach: Whenever an issue comes up here, I mark it so that I can find it in the logs. 2015-10-13T05:19:37Z beach: Shinmera has said he might eventually make an "annotatable" Common Lisp HyperSpec. When that happens, it will be easier. 2015-10-13T05:21:17Z pillton: Can you add undefining SETF expanders and being able to access the original value form. 2015-10-13T05:22:42Z beach: Anything that specifies unspecified behavior in the Common Lisp HyperSpec could be considered. 2015-10-13T05:23:13Z beach: I'll not this and consider it. So: Note to self, consider for Common Lisp version 2 (which will be called something else to avoid confusion with CLtL2). 2015-10-13T05:23:15Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T05:24:11Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:25:02Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-13T05:27:26Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T05:29:11Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:30:05Z jdtest: (incf common-lisp) ; as a c++ pun ;) 2015-10-13T05:30:57Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:31:19Z duallist joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:32:00Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-13T05:32:24Z duallist quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-13T05:34:08Z beach: I'll worry about what to call it later. 2015-10-13T05:34:50Z duallist joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:35:13Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:36:18Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T05:42:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:47:53Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:48:25Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:49:22Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-13T05:55:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T05:58:11Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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And I'm not talking about the font quality: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp2/LISP_2_SYM_darker.pdf 2015-10-13T06:57:40Z pillton: jackdaniel: I looked at cl-org-mode for doing that. 2015-10-13T06:58:06Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T06:58:12Z jackdaniel: pillton: do you have any notes to share? or code snippets? inisghts? did it work? :-) 2015-10-13T06:58:21Z pillton: jackdaniel: Then I thought org mode's syntax was too restrictive. 2015-10-13T06:58:25Z loke: You can run Emacs is batch mode though 2015-10-13T06:58:31Z loke: in 2015-10-13T06:58:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T06:58:44Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-13T06:59:36Z pillton: jackdaniel: This is generated from Org mode. http://markcox80.github.io/basic-binary-ipc/ 2015-10-13T07:00:13Z kami joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:00:16Z kami: Good morning 2015-10-13T07:00:46Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T07:00:57Z jackdaniel: pillton: basically I want to access stuff like: (find-node (find-node "About") "English") 2015-10-13T07:01:15Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T07:01:19Z jackdaniel: and after that (get-text *) 2015-10-13T07:01:23Z jackdaniel: or something similar 2015-10-13T07:01:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:01:39Z pillton: jackdaniel: Yeah. I wanted to do stuff like that so I could generate dictionaries like Hyperspec. 2015-10-13T07:01:40Z jackdaniel: hi kami 2015-10-13T07:02:12Z pillton: jackdaniel: I gave up in favour of pursuing a reader macro like abstraction. 2015-10-13T07:03:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T07:03:25Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:04:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T07:04:46Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:05:36Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T07:05:37Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:07:33Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T07:08:04Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:08:50Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:09:10Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:09:49Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:09:50Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T07:10:52Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:16:22Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Before people figured it out. 2015-10-13T07:57:01Z loke: I'm trying to figure out how the Lisp 2 FUNCTION form worked... 2015-10-13T07:57:23Z loke: I see (FUNCTION (LAST SYMBOL) ((L SYMBOL)) ...code...) 2015-10-13T07:58:13Z p_l: loke: remember that you're looking at hairy internals of a compiler 2015-10-13T07:58:55Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T07:59:02Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T07:59:05Z loke: The definition of MAPCAR is on page 18. 2015-10-13T08:00:02Z loke: Is FN what is FUNCALL in CL? 2015-10-13T08:02:22Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T08:02:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:02:32Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:04:10Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T08:04:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:04:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:04:45Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:04:54Z add^_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:05:38Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:05:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:05:43Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T08:07:55Z kini joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:10:15Z add^_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:10:21Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend.) 2015-10-13T08:10:24Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:11:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:25:00Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:26:21Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:28:38Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:29:46Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:30:38Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:32:06Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:34:30Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:36:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:37:32Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:40:03Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:40:52Z kvsari_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:40:57Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T08:41:20Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:41:33Z roo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:42:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:43:25Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T08:43:25Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:43:41Z durm joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:44:43Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:45:06Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T08:45:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:45:52Z vlatkoB quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-13T08:45:52Z kvsari quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-13T08:45:52Z DeadTrickster quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-13T08:45:52Z roo quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-13T08:46:08Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:47:48Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:51:38Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:53:26Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:54:43Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:54:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T08:56:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-13T08:59:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:00:34Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T09:01:02Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:01:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:03:49Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T09:04:16Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:04:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:05:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:07:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:08:18Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:09:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:09:44Z mea-culpa quit 2015-10-13T09:10:23Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:11:58Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T09:12:29Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-13T09:14:47Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:17:32Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:17:35Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:19:40Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:19:41Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T09:20:39Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:20:45Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T09:26:05Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:28:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:30:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:31:10Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-13T09:31:45Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T09:32:11Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-13T09:32:14Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Has anybody seen drakma leaving connections hanging in CLOSE_WAIT under sbcl ? 2015-10-13T13:34:47Z dlowe: that's totally normal 2015-10-13T13:35:21Z ghard: Even when not asking for a stream? 2015-10-13T13:36:32Z ghard: It's called through chirp to ... ehm ... harvest ... some tw user timelines, and I end up running out of fds :) 2015-10-13T13:36:40Z dlowe: wait, no, I'm thinking of TIME_WAIT 2015-10-13T13:37:22Z dlowe: CLOSE_WAIT means the socket isn't being closed properly. 2015-10-13T13:37:28Z ghard: Exactly 2015-10-13T13:37:43Z dlowe: I just used chirp recently and didn't have that problem. 2015-10-13T13:37:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T13:38:04Z Shinmera: Chirp isn't doing anything special either unless you're using the streaming parts. But even those should be closed properly. 2015-10-13T13:38:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T13:38:11Z ghard: Yeah. 2015-10-13T13:38:33Z ghard: Hence my question about drakma. AS far as I can see drakma is being called the right way. 2015-10-13T13:38:47Z dlowe: are you using the stream api accidentally and creating a new stream for each request? 2015-10-13T13:38:49Z ghard: Maybe this is a platform-dependent issue. 2015-10-13T13:38:54Z dlowe: what platform? 2015-10-13T13:39:31Z ghard: 3.10.0-123.8.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Sep 22 19:06:58 UTC 2014 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux 2015-10-13T13:39:33Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-13T13:39:43Z dlowe: seems very unlikely 2015-10-13T13:39:44Z ghard: Reasonably recent CentOS 2015-10-13T13:40:05Z Shinmera: And drakma and SBCL are up to date too? 2015-10-13T13:40:32Z ghard: Should be yes. And I'm calling chirp on a single thread. 2015-10-13T13:41:23Z ghard: $ lsof | grep sbcl | grep TCP | wc -l 2015-10-13T13:41:23Z ghard: 1575 2015-10-13T13:41:23Z ghard: 2015-10-13T13:41:25Z Shinmera: I've only ever had problems with hunchentoot not being able to close things properly, but that too has been fixed since. 2015-10-13T13:43:35Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:43:46Z pt1_ quit 2015-10-13T13:43:49Z ghard: Yeah. I'm trying to find out if there's anything on usockets re. this particular issue - so far my google-do is failing me. 2015-10-13T13:45:02Z dlowe: here's the twitter feed slurper I wrote http://paste.lisp.org/display/156757 2015-10-13T13:45:20Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:45:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:46:49Z ghard: dlowe: Yes the way I call chirp to get the timeline is the same. Only handling of the result set is different. 2015-10-13T13:47:27Z dlowe: nfc. try tracing the close function for usocket. 2015-10-13T13:47:39Z ghard: Yep. That's my next call. Cheers! 2015-10-13T13:48:00Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:49:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T13:50:01Z zacts: hi lispers 2015-10-13T13:50:07Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:50:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-13T13:51:43Z ghard went back to lurking mode. 2015-10-13T13:52:17Z ebrasca`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T13:57:13Z phoe_krk: hey 2015-10-13T14:02:27Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-13T14:05:09Z durm joined #lisp 2015-10-13T14:14:45Z kvsari_ is now known as kvsari 2015-10-13T14:16:59Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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produce an sbcl.a, but I think it's not applied yet 2015-10-13T15:47:22Z DeadTrickster: attila_lendvai, I heard about that but I want sbcl executable linked to my lib 2015-10-13T15:47:34Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T15:47:34Z DeadTrickster: so I don't have to deal with so 2015-10-13T15:47:47Z jdtest quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-13T15:47:48Z jdtest3 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T15:48:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-13T15:51:43Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T15:53:13Z gacepa joined #lisp 2015-10-13T15:53:56Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-13T15:55:23Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-13T15:57:47Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-13T16:00:23Z attila_lendvai: DeadTrickster: I haven't done these things myself, but I think what you need is use that sbcl.a and your .o or .a files to produce the final executable 2015-10-13T16:01:59Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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not eagerly check issues several times each day. doesn't mean they won't look at some point 2015-10-13T20:39:43Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T20:39:49Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:40:07Z Cthulhux`: .:/ 2015-10-13T20:40:10Z Cthulhux`: :;( 2015-10-13T20:40:20Z Cthulhux`: almost a year now. 2015-10-13T20:40:49Z DylanJ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:42:19Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux`: I don't see a pull request in their tracker. What are you referring to? 2015-10-13T20:42:25Z dwchandler: Three outstanding issues, all requests with no code, no pull request, etc. 2015-10-13T20:44:11Z PuercoPop: they replied rather promptly to a PR request to access submitted a ~month ago. 2015-10-13T20:44:13Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T20:44:19Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:44:32Z PuercoPop: fwiw 2015-10-13T20:44:42Z dwchandler: it's worth something 2015-10-13T20:45:25Z jackdaniel: also does look rather like non-issues: add description, rename the function and a feature request 2015-10-13T20:45:59Z jackdaniel: s/also/also these issues/ 2015-10-13T20:46:31Z jackdaniel: unless I've found a wrong repository 2015-10-13T20:46:33Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T20:46:45Z dwchandler: both the ql description and regex rename *should* be pull requests if someone cared, really 2015-10-13T20:46:57Z Shinmera has a really primitive and unfinished mediawiki API client. https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-wiki 2015-10-13T20:47:01Z Cthulhux`: i'm not sure but i think the "rename the function" thing is a breaking bug ... 2015-10-13T20:47:14Z Cthulhux`: Shinmera: is there anything you have not coded yet? :-) 2015-10-13T20:47:21Z Shinmera: Oh, too many things. 2015-10-13T20:47:48Z Shinmera: I should finish that some day. If you can pester me enough I might scrape up the time to do it. 2015-10-13T20:48:24Z jackdaniel: Cthulhux`: so by the analogy cl-ppcre suffers from the same bug? 2015-10-13T20:48:40Z Cthulhux`: i started writing my first wikipedia bot and i had to use perl because cl-mediawiki does not play well with cl-ppcre 2015-10-13T20:48:45Z Cthulhux`: is that enough reason? :D 2015-10-13T20:48:53Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T20:48:58Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:49:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T20:49:28Z Cthulhux`: jackdaniel, depends; cl-mediawiki actually uses cl-ppcre to implement this function but it still "overrides" it 2015-10-13T20:49:35Z Cthulhux`: so i guess the issue is with cl-mediawiki 2015-10-13T20:49:39Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T20:52:29Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-13T20:52:51Z SgtGarcia quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T20:52:55Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:53:32Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T20:53:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:53:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:53:48Z dwchandler: so if you use both cl-mediawiki and cl-ppcre you cannot use cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all and cl-mediawiki:regex-replace-all as you like? 2015-10-13T20:54:39Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:54:47Z Cthulhux`: if i load the cl-mediawiki package, loading cl-ppcre fails because of the naming. 2015-10-13T20:54:49Z dwchandler: Cthulhux`: you are having this problem? 2015-10-13T20:54:51Z dlowe: Sure, just don't USE both packages 2015-10-13T20:55:07Z pilne: can't you import one or both qualified? 2015-10-13T20:55:54Z Cthulhux`: i thought i can just use both as dependencies. 2015-10-13T20:55:55Z dwchandler: It's kinda a pain and I see the point, but... 1) where's the PR, and 2) workarounds are easy enough 2015-10-13T20:55:57Z dlowe: a nice alternative is to use package-local nicknames and assign the packages to something short 2015-10-13T20:56:13Z dlowe: like cl-mediawiki to mw and cl-ppcre to re 2015-10-13T20:56:16Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:56:26Z dlowe: (if your implementation supports them, of course) 2015-10-13T20:56:45Z Cthulhux`: that would still not rename the clashing functions /and/ it would probably break cl-mediawiki's own usage of cl-ppcre 2015-10-13T20:57:03Z dlowe: there's no need to rename them and it would not break anything. 2015-10-13T20:57:43Z dlowe: you should be able to install both without error. If you do, I suspect cl-mediawiki has some bad problems. 2015-10-13T20:57:45Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T20:57:49Z dlowe: er, if you do have errors 2015-10-13T20:58:13Z dlowe: The whole point of the package system is to prevent the clashing of functions. 2015-10-13T20:58:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T20:58:22Z dlowe: (and other things referred to by symblos) 2015-10-13T20:58:32Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:01:24Z dwchandler: PuercoPop: where did you see this month-ago pull request? 2015-10-13T21:01:25Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-13T21:01:31Z nzst quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-13T21:02:12Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: I'm talking about this https://github.com/AccelerationNet/access/pull/7 PR from a different library but same authors. 2015-10-13T21:02:19Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:02:35Z dwchandler: ah, ok 2015-10-13T21:02:36Z PuercoPop: The mediawiki function in question actually depends in cl-ppcre! 2015-10-13T21:02:51Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:02:59Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:03:06Z duallist left #lisp 2015-10-13T21:03:14Z dwchandler: yes, it's a fairly thin wrapper 2015-10-13T21:03:19Z Cthulhux`: yes, but it works differently which is not always wanted. 2015-10-13T21:04:36Z palter quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:04:41Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:07:19Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T21:07:25Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:07:31Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:07:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:08:11Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux`: It would signal more interest in the feature request if send a PR with a new name and explain the problem in more detail. In the issue you didn't even explicitly name the function. 2015-10-13T21:08:23Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:08:31Z Cthulhux`: hm. good point. 2015-10-13T21:08:33Z PuercoPop: something algo the like page-replace-all maybe 2015-10-13T21:10:15Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:10:15Z dwchandler: it's going to be problematic for existing consumer code 2015-10-13T21:10:15Z dwchandler: not to stop a PR, just sayin' 2015-10-13T21:10:21Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-13T21:10:46Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:11:15Z palter quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:11:25Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:11:44Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:11:59Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: slime-edit-uses helps alleviate that problem fortunately 2015-10-13T21:12:02Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:12:13Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:12:19Z ghard joined #lisp 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#lisp 2015-10-13T21:43:19Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:43:34Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux`: well you got an answer with the PR at least ^_^ 2015-10-13T21:43:59Z Cthulhux`: funny how fast those guys can be. sad that they make it harder for me. :< 2015-10-13T21:45:00Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:45:06Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:45:31Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:46:25Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-13T21:47:35Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:47:40Z badkins quit 2015-10-13T21:47:56Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:48:00Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux`: well an extra shadowing-import-from is not that hard 2015-10-13T21:48:19Z Cthulhux`: so many things to learn.. 2015-10-13T21:48:44Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:49:39Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:49:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:54:11Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T21:54:28Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T21:55:55Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:57:41Z dwchandler: Cthulhux`: at least you got a reason and some helpful advice. not bad treatment at all :) 2015-10-13T21:58:01Z Cthulhux`: which is ok, yes ;-) 2015-10-13T21:58:53Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:59:06Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T21:59:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:01:15Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T22:03:44Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T22:03:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:08:21Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:08:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:11:22Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:12:53Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:13:11Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:15:42Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T22:17:31Z mordocai: Anyone know of any open source Common Lisp projects with some "low hanging fruit" contributions for experienced programmers that are Common Lisp noobs? Basically a gateway into a good code base with the goal of learning through helping the project. 2015-10-13T22:17:45Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T22:17:51Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:22:25Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T22:22:27Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:22:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:23:48Z DrWat joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:27:03Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:27:15Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:27:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:28:10Z resttime: mordocai: If you can't find anything maybe the next closest thing you might get would be writing your own project based on another for design 2015-10-13T22:28:20Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-10-13T22:29:49Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:30:15Z gacepa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-13T22:30:28Z resttime: One of the first things I worked on in Common Lisp were CFFI bindings and I looked at cl-opengl for how it was done 2015-10-13T22:30:47Z PuercoPop: mordocai: one thing that could be of use is to have a list of open issues of cl projects on github sorted by stars. 2015-10-13T22:30:55Z dwchandler: or write anything and when you find yourself using a library and thinking "ugh, this doesn't work well" or "it would be nice if" then send a patch / PR 2015-10-13T22:31:05Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-13T22:31:35Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T22:31:54Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T22:32:11Z PuercoPop: mordocai: This seems 'low hanging' https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1500951 2015-10-13T22:32:41Z PuercoPop: mordocai: what is your background or what do you want to work on? 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2015-10-13T23:12:52Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:13:50Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:14:05Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:14:14Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:14:44Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-13T23:17:35Z Quadrescence: phoe_krk, do x,y,z come from the same range/ 2015-10-13T23:17:37Z Quadrescence: ?* 2015-10-13T23:17:46Z phoe_krk: Quadrescence: no 2015-10-13T23:17:58Z phoe_krk: Quadrescence: x might be [0..19], y might be [0..3] 2015-10-13T23:18:02Z Quadrescence: oh i guess i could have seen that from your do-all 2015-10-13T23:18:13Z Quadrescence: anyway this is easy to construct, but nothing built in 2015-10-13T23:18:19Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:18:19Z Quadrescence: would you like to see what it might look like 2015-10-13T23:18:23Z phoe_krk: (do-all ((x 0 10) (y 0 20) (z 0 30)) (...)) 2015-10-13T23:18:26Z phoe_krk: maybe something like this 2015-10-13T23:18:38Z phoe_krk: Quadrescence: yes, maybe I'll get to construct a macro for that 2015-10-13T23:18:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:18:56Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:19:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:20:06Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:20:21Z mtl_: can't you just do it with nested do-times? 2015-10-13T23:20:32Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-13T23:21:01Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:22:17Z phoe_krk: mtl_: I want to avoid nesting 2015-10-13T23:22:33Z phoe_krk: at least in the visible code 2015-10-13T23:22:43Z mtl_: well, I meant the macro implementation 2015-10-13T23:23:01Z Quadrescence: phoe_krk, http://paste.lisp.org/display/156780 2015-10-13T23:23:40Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:23:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:24:11Z phoe_krk: ohh, using a loop 2015-10-13T23:24:16Z phoe_krk: thanks, didn't think of that 2015-10-13T23:24:37Z mtl_: phoe_krk: you can also use a DO 2015-10-13T23:24:42Z mtl_: but it doesn't really matter which 2015-10-13T23:25:31Z Quadrescence: Making that macro robust is a very good exercise. 2015-10-13T23:25:59Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:27:08Z HammyJammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-13T23:27:49Z Quadrescence: Note that it allows stuff like http://paste.lisp.org/display/156780#1 2015-10-13T23:28:06Z Quadrescence: so maybe it should be called do-all* instead. ;) 2015-10-13T23:28:15Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:28:24Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:31:18Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-13T23:31:36Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:32:08Z Brucio-12 joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:32:47Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:33:08Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:33:16Z Brucio-12 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-13T23:34:12Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-13T23:34:13Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-13T23:34:13Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:34:36Z housel joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:37:09Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:37:39Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:37:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:38:24Z Quadrescence: phoe_krk, here is the parallel version http://paste.lisp.org/display/156780#2 2015-10-13T23:38:33Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:38:36Z phoe_krk: parallel? 2015-10-13T23:38:54Z Quadrescence: except there's a small typo. "uppers" should have the string "UPPER-" in the MAKE-LIST 2015-10-13T23:39:04Z Quadrescence: phoe_krk, LET vs LET*, DO-ALL vs DO-ALL* 2015-10-13T23:39:11Z phoe_krk: oh holy cow 2015-10-13T23:39:15Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:39:15Z Quadrescence: this one is like LET, where you can't refer to previous versions 2015-10-13T23:39:21Z phoe_krk: yes, I see 2015-10-13T23:39:23Z Quadrescence: previous variable bindings* 2015-10-13T23:40:47Z gabriel_laddel: Quadrescence: you've a blog which, among other things, laments that McCLIM is "broken but interesting". I'm rather curious as to what problems you've had with it. 2015-10-13T23:41:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:41:20Z Quadrescence: gabriel_laddel, McCLIM often either crashed, didn't refresh, didn't load properly on each platform, etc. 2015-10-13T23:42:10Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:42:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:42:24Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-13T23:42:30Z Quadrescence: long ago I wrote a database editor in CLIM and it just didn't work very well in McCLIM (sometimes rows wouldn't disappear when deleted, for example) 2015-10-13T23:43:02Z gabriel_laddel: Quadrescence: I see. 2015-10-13T23:43:21Z Quadrescence: It would be so nice to have working better, only because it's charming and fun to use. 2015-10-13T23:43:57Z Quadrescence: Maybe a little impractical for Real World Delivered Applications On Modern Operating Systems, though 2015-10-13T23:44:35Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: moheee) 2015-10-13T23:45:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:46:59Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-13T23:47:02Z gabriel_laddel: Quadrescence: I actually delivered an app on McCLIM... 2015-10-13T23:47:05Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:47:14Z Quadrescence: gabriel_laddel, Nice! What app? 2015-10-13T23:47:19Z gabriel_laddel: can't say 2015-10-13T23:47:36Z gabriel_laddel: but it was a combination of a CLIM gui + opengl for a visualization. 2015-10-13T23:47:48Z gabriel_laddel: twas fun. 2015-10-13T23:48:03Z Quadrescence: That sounds interesting. Maybe I should give it a shot. I'm doing some OpenGL in Lisp now and am not having a great time. 2015-10-13T23:48:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: Have you looked at CEPL? 2015-10-13T23:48:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^obligatory 2015-10-13T23:48:28Z Quadrescence: I know about CEPL, but I haven't tried it. 2015-10-13T23:48:48Z phoe_krk: Quadrescence: such a tiny macro, but it makes my code much more elegant 2015-10-13T23:49:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: There are some videos up showing it off. I couldn't get it working and got distracted. 2015-10-13T23:49:22Z gabriel_laddel: Quadrescence: IMHO, opengl period isn't useful unless you can lock down a platform. 2015-10-13T23:49:35Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, I had enough issues getting just OpenGL to work. 2015-10-13T23:49:52Z gabriel_laddel: you can't really "wrap" opengl because it isn't well specified. 2015-10-13T23:49:59Z gabriel_laddel: or well implemented, or whatever. 2015-10-13T23:50:05Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, Unfortunately after a while I get a memory fault, probably because some memory is leaking somewhere. 2015-10-13T23:50:10Z Quadrescence: gabriel_laddel, Right. 2015-10-13T23:50:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence: Really? I haven't had any issues getting something to show up. Most of my opengl problems are caused by not knowing it very well. You have problems with even small examples? 2015-10-13T23:51:29Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:51:35Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, No, it's with my application in particular, which is moving around millions of triangles 2015-10-13T23:51:39Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:51:59Z Quadrescence: But, I really know nothing about OpenGL so I might be doing things completely wrong. CL-OPENGL is a very raw interface. 2015-10-13T23:55:31Z veckon joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:55:43Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:55:46Z veckon left #lisp 2015-10-13T23:56:01Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-13T23:56:21Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-13T23:59:17Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:00:34Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:00:45Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T00:00:56Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:01:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:02:02Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T00:05:03Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T00:05:22Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:05:38Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:05:45Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:10:11Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T00:10:12Z pillton: Ignorance and OpenGL is the best strategy. 2015-10-14T00:10:26Z phoe_krk: I can't get the concept of &rest just yet 2015-10-14T00:10:28Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:10:42Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156782 where do I screw up? 2015-10-14T00:11:26Z pillton: apply #'sum 2015-10-14T00:11:37Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:11:37Z pillton: It should be (cdr rest) 2015-10-14T00:12:21Z phoe_krk: pillton: it's simple to apply functions, but I want to write a recursive sum to grasp the concept 2015-10-14T00:12:42Z pillton: I'm telling you how to fix it. 2015-10-14T00:12:43Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:12:44Z phoe_krk: and (cdr rest) doesn't work, explodes at the last argument 2015-10-14T00:12:52Z pillton: (apply #'sum result (car rest) (cdr rest)) 2015-10-14T00:13:04Z phoe_krk: oh wait 2015-10-14T00:13:12Z phoe_krk: hm. 2015-10-14T00:13:47Z phoe_krk: why does it work with apply and doesn't without apply? 2015-10-14T00:14:08Z pillton: What is the difference between (sum 1 2 (list 1 2 3)) and (apply #'sum 1 2 (list 1 2 3)) ? 2015-10-14T00:14:33Z pillton: clhs apply 2015-10-14T00:14:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-10-14T00:15:07Z pillton: clhs 3.1.2.1.2 2015-10-14T00:15:07Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm 2015-10-14T00:15:17Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T00:15:37Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:16:40Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T00:16:41Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-14T00:17:03Z phoe_krk: still not getting it, despite this example being (I think?) fairly simple... 2015-10-14T00:17:41Z pillton: Then read section 3.1.2.1. It will change your life. 2015-10-14T00:18:18Z pillton: Or http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 2015-10-14T00:19:03Z palter quit 2015-10-14T00:19:08Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T00:19:19Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:19:47Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T00:19:55Z phoe_krk: I can see apply's definition 2015-10-14T00:20:13Z pillton: phoe_krk: Your response to my question is puzzling. Please attempt to answer it. 2015-10-14T00:20:14Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:20:21Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:20:21Z phoe_krk: but I still have no idea why, if sum expects two loose arguments and a list, I can't invoke sum directly and have to apply 2015-10-14T00:20:24Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:20:30Z phoe_krk: I'm reading through both, and perhaps need a little bit more time 2015-10-14T00:21:12Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-14T00:21:22Z pillton: That is fine. I'm just pointing out that you didn't answer my question. I assure you, I have plenty of work to do. 2015-10-14T00:21:38Z phoe_krk: pillton: sorry, and thanks 2015-10-14T00:21:46Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:21:51Z Quadrescence: pillton, ignorance and opengl is indeed awful. :( 2015-10-14T00:22:07Z pillton: Quadrescence: NO.. It is the best strategy! 2015-10-14T00:22:22Z pillton died a little after reading up on OpenGL. 2015-10-14T00:23:23Z resttime: phoe_krk: &rest collects the extra arguments into a list for you 2015-10-14T00:23:33Z resttime: SUM does not expect two loose arguments and a list 2015-10-14T00:23:38Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:23:46Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:23:48Z g_SG quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-14T00:23:50Z pjb: phoe_krk: of course, there's rloop: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-emacs.el#L1803 2015-10-14T00:23:58Z pjb: phoe_krk: notice how trivial the macro is. 2015-10-14T00:24:34Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:24:38Z resttime: (apply #'sum 1 2 (list 1 2 3)) -> (sum 1 2 1 2 3) 2015-10-14T00:24:52Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:24:58Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:26:03Z resttime: SUM expects two arguments and whatever number of arguments after that you want 2015-10-14T00:26:21Z resttime: s/and/and then 2015-10-14T00:27:04Z resttime: Which the latter are collected into a list of which you specified with the keyword &REST 2015-10-14T00:28:29Z g_SG quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T00:29:27Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T00:29:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:31:08Z Quadrescence: pjb, haha, #'activate-peril-sensitive-sunglasses 2015-10-14T00:34:14Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:34:21Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:35:20Z DeadTrickster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:37:19Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-14T00:38:28Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:38:51Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:38:59Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:38:59Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:39:05Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:39:21Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:43:24Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:43:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:47:56Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:48:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:52:33Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:52:39Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:53:23Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:53:50Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:54:47Z resttime: Ack, when I was typing something I was wondering why an open parenthesis kept showing up at the start of my line 2015-10-14T00:55:00Z resttime: Kept deleting the line and retype only for it to reappear 2015-10-14T00:55:27Z resttime: Took a while to I realize my brain was automatically making me type it... 2015-10-14T00:56:16Z resttime: Scary D: 2015-10-14T00:56:30Z Brucio-12 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:56:32Z Brucio-12 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-14T00:57:41Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T00:57:43Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-14T00:57:43Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-14T00:57:49Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:01:01Z Fare: Scheme in Haskell with a reactive functional library compiled to Javascript... cool talk at LispNYC http://www.meetup.com/LispNYC/events/218915098/ 2015-10-14T01:01:33Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:01:59Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:02:13Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:06:36Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:06:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:10:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:10:24Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-14T01:10:47Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:11:12Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:11:28Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:11:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:14:13Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:15:55Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:16:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:16:34Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:20:50Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:20:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:21:24Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:21:46Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:22:42Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:25:06Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:25:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:27:42Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:29:53Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:30:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:31:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:34:25Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:34:45Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:34:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:36:02Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:38:39Z loke: Hello Lisp 2015-10-14T01:39:08Z loke: farhaven: Scheme compiled to Haskell compiled to JS? 2015-10-14T01:39:19Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:39:25Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:39:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:44:09Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:44:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:44:53Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:46:29Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:46:39Z f3lp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:48:19Z phoe_krk: (defun sum (num1 num2 &rest rest) ...) 2015-10-14T01:48:38Z phoe_krk: so, this expects N arguments 2015-10-14T01:48:45Z phoe_krk: loose arguments. 2015-10-14T01:49:27Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:49:33Z phoe_krk: and applying, makes the rest of the arguments be passed correctly. 2015-10-14T01:49:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:49:37Z phoe_krk: that's what I understood. 2015-10-14T01:50:31Z |3b|: it expects 2 or more arguments, up to call-arguments-limit 2015-10-14T01:51:04Z |3b|: (or possibly some implementation dependent amount less than call-arguments-limit, which might not take into account ram limitations and such) 2015-10-14T01:51:37Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:53:33Z |3b|: apply calls a function as if the contents of the list (and any preceding single arguments) were passed to that function separately, regardless of how the called function interprets them 2015-10-14T01:53:49Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T01:54:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:55:01Z |3b|: (though in the case where the function accepts &rest, it might optimize by reusing some of the list passed to APPLY for the &rest list, but aside from not modifying &rest lists you don't really need to care about that) 2015-10-14T01:56:55Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:58:47Z pillton: Bike: introspect-environment:parse-compiler-macro doesn't handle (funcall (function name) 1 2) forms correctly on SBCL. Have you looked in to it? 2015-10-14T01:58:50Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T01:58:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T01:59:00Z Bike: oh for fuck's sake. 2015-10-14T01:59:19Z Bike: no, i haven't, let me see. 2015-10-14T02:00:10Z pillton: I'm running sbcl-1.2.16. 2015-10-14T02:02:29Z Bike: don't see it on 1.2.12, give me a while to build head. 2015-10-14T02:03:18Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:03:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:04:09Z pillton: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156786#1 2015-10-14T02:04:15Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:05:45Z pillton: No worries. I'm off to lunch. I'll check back in later. 2015-10-14T02:08:12Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:08:28Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:09:40Z jfe`: hey all, this question is a bit off-topic, but can anyone tell me how researchers have historically found research papers to read? 2015-10-14T02:10:00Z phoe_krk: clhs documentation 2015-10-14T02:10:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 2015-10-14T02:10:20Z Bike: jfe`: like, before pubmed and citeseer? 2015-10-14T02:11:25Z jfe`: Bike: yes, but THANK YOU for mentioning those. i had no idea they existed. 2015-10-14T02:11:35Z Bike: they're pretty sweet. 2015-10-14T02:11:47Z Bike: well, my understanding is that they subscribed to journals and read them, sorta like magazines. 2015-10-14T02:12:05Z Bike: if you look at old (my experience is like 1960s, but also 1800s a bit) journals they're fulla ads 2015-10-14T02:12:40Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:12:41Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156787 How do I invoke this piece of documentation? 2015-10-14T02:12:52Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:13:07Z Bike: (documentation 'multi-do 'function) i think 2015-10-14T02:13:51Z phoe_krk: oh, yes 2015-10-14T02:13:52Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-10-14T02:13:57Z phoe_krk: I was using #'multi-do instead 2015-10-14T02:17:11Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:17:18Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:20:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:21:24Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:21:29Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:22:00Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:23:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:26:25Z phoe_krk: Can I achieve "s in Lisp documentation? #\" doesn't work as intended. 2015-10-14T02:26:36Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:26:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:27:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:27:37Z Bike: "the man said \"what up\" to the horse" 2015-10-14T02:28:19Z phoe_krk: Doesn't work either. Prints \" still. 2015-10-14T02:28:40Z Bike: try (write (documentation 'multi-do 'function) :escape nil) 2015-10-14T02:28:55Z Bike: pillton: reproduced, i'll try to see why now 2015-10-14T02:29:49Z phoe_krk: it printed the proper string this time. 2015-10-14T02:30:19Z phoe_krk: the value returned by documentation will have escaped quotation marks though? 2015-10-14T02:30:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:31:22Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:31:41Z Bike: they're the same value, it's just that when you treat it as a value (ie from normal return) lisp tries to make it READable 2015-10-14T02:31:46Z Bike: meaning it has escapes and all 2015-10-14T02:31:52Z phoe_krk: oh 2015-10-14T02:31:54Z phoe_krk: I see 2015-10-14T02:32:06Z Bike: pillton: sbcl changed the internal interface again 2015-10-14T02:34:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:36:13Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:36:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:39:49Z Bike: pillton: i think to fix this the right way i'd have to write my own parser 2015-10-14T02:40:48Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:40:55Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:45:18Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:45:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:45:52Z Bike: actually, i guess i can use :allow-other-keys. what excitement! 2015-10-14T02:46:32Z loke: Bike: Wait a minute. 2015-10-14T02:46:39Z loke: You actually found a use for :allow-other-keys ? 2015-10-14T02:46:45Z Bike: disturbing i know. 2015-10-14T02:46:55Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:48:39Z Bike: yup. works. beautiful. 2015-10-14T02:48:46Z Bike: well, opposite of beautiful. 2015-10-14T02:48:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:49:51Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:49:56Z pilne quit (Quit: I hit quit!) 2015-10-14T02:50:15Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:52:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:52:58Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:53:09Z ahungry: What quicklisp library or feature is causing this output in my program? "Warning: could not find hyperspec map file. Adjust the path at the top of clhs-lookup.lisp to get links to the HyperSpec." 2015-10-14T02:53:30Z XachX: Clhs 2015-10-14T02:53:41Z tmtwd quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T02:53:45Z XachX: I think 2015-10-14T02:53:50Z ahungry: I made a caveman2 application and get spammed with that when running it on my server via 'sbcl --eval "(ql:quickload :sluglisp)" 2015-10-14T02:54:11Z ahungry: Wondering what part of the code would be using it for anything? Isn't it for getting documentation? 2015-10-14T02:54:53Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T02:55:00Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:55:39Z ahungry: This is the relevant asd file if anyone wants to peek at it (https://github.com/ahungry/sluglisp/blob/master/sluglisp.asd) - I guess one of those libraries could be using calls to it for some reason 2015-10-14T02:56:19Z ahungry: Lots of output of "Scan was called 1079 times." too (with varying X times) 2015-10-14T02:56:35Z Bike: Urgh. Does anyone happen to have a copy of sbcl 1.2.13 to 15 around so I can make double sure this doesn't break. 2015-10-14T02:57:33Z resttime: Bike: I've got one sbcl 1.2.15 x64 on windows 2015-10-14T02:57:56Z resttime: err make that x86 I mean 2015-10-14T02:57:56Z ahungry: I have SBCL 1.2.13.74-e8db3cc on my centos server 2015-10-14T02:59:18Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T02:59:37Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T02:59:41Z pillton: Bike: Ok. That is a shame. 2015-10-14T03:00:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T03:00:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:01:30Z Bike: resttime, ahungry: could you quickload introspect-environment, edit introspect-environment:parse-compiler-macro to have «:allow-other-keys t :accessor (find-symbol "COMPILER-MACRO-ARGS" "SB-C")» after «name» in the call to «make-macro-lambda», reload everything, and run pillton's paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/156786#1 2015-10-14T03:01:39Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:01:39Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:01:58Z Bike: please. 2015-10-14T03:02:49Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:04:09Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:04:22Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:04:24Z resttime: Bike: going to grab the github repo if that's fine instead, can't seem to quickload it 2015-10-14T03:04:39Z Bike: yeah, that's fine. 2015-10-14T03:04:55Z Bike: in that case you can just edit it before loading it, of course. 2015-10-14T03:06:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:06:43Z Bike: i guess i could just commit it for you... i don't know the etiquette. 2015-10-14T03:08:40Z Bike: whatever's easiest for you, i guess. 2015-10-14T03:08:47Z resttime: Bike: sure that'd be easier 2015-10-14T03:09:03Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T03:09:09Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:09:23Z resttime: was in sbcl.lisp wondering if I should but it in the form `(compilter-macro ,name) that was in MAKE-MACRO-LAMBDA 2015-10-14T03:09:32Z pjb: jfe`: they used something called "libraries". 2015-10-14T03:09:33Z ahungry: yea i'll git clone it, I dont have emacs set up on server so editing interactively is a huge pain 2015-10-14T03:09:42Z Bike: give me a second to commit a change. 2015-10-14T03:12:58Z PuercoPop: ahungry: It is colorize https://github.com/kingcons/colorize/blob/master/clhs-lookup.lisp#L53 2015-10-14T03:13:18Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:13:54Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:15:43Z ahungry: Hm weird, I wonder what is attempting to use colorize out of the things I have loaded 2015-10-14T03:16:01Z ahungry: thanks for the link 2015-10-14T03:16:47Z ahungry: So it looks like it expects the user to have a ~/HyperSpec/Data/Map_Sym.txt file? 2015-10-14T03:17:01Z Bike: ahungry, resttime: pull away if you would 2015-10-14T03:17:56Z ahungry: pull and quickload of the pull workin so far 2015-10-14T03:17:59Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:17:59Z ahungry: now to try the paste 2015-10-14T03:18:30Z resttime: (1 2) NIL (1 2) NIL 2015-10-14T03:18:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:18:49Z ahungry: Same, well, I had two nils at the end 2015-10-14T03:19:01Z ahungry: (1 2), NIL, (1 2), NIL, NIL 2015-10-14T03:19:14Z resttime: Ah yeah, last NIL for me too is return value 2015-10-14T03:19:21Z resttime: I got same as ahungry 2015-10-14T03:19:38Z ahungry: ah yea good point return value, i hate reading the output in plain sbcl 2015-10-14T03:20:17Z Bike: just as it should be. thanks! 2015-10-14T03:20:28Z Bike: pillton: fixed! another win for half measures 2015-10-14T03:20:39Z PuercoPop: ahungry: I imagine cl keywords 2015-10-14T03:20:59Z pillton: Bike: Great. Thank you! I'll check it out on 12->16. 2015-10-14T03:21:13Z Bike: :allow-other-keys allowing some forward compatibility in literally every function with &key is kind of neat. 2015-10-14T03:21:28Z phoe_krk: (defun good-night () (sleep 1) (good-night)) 2015-10-14T03:21:36Z ahungry: haha night 2015-10-14T03:21:41Z phoe_krk: so now I can set how long I'll sleep 2015-10-14T03:21:44Z phoe_krk: by setting the stack size 2015-10-14T03:21:54Z phoe_krk: so I get woken up by a stack overflow on this one ._. 2015-10-14T03:22:09Z phoe_krk sets TCO to off 2015-10-14T03:22:12Z phoe_krk: (good-night) 2015-10-14T03:22:48Z pjb: phoe_krk: the value returned by documentation is a string. It doesn't have escaped anything. 2015-10-14T03:23:01Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:23:03Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T03:23:12Z pjb: phoe_krk: the readable representation of strings may have escaped backslash or double-quotes, but not the string itself! 2015-10-14T03:23:14Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:24:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: similarly, the number twelve, doesn't "have" a character #\1 and a character #\2. It's the _decimal_ _representation_ of _twelve_ that has them: "12", which when it is written, produces: 12 2015-10-14T03:25:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: but other representations of twelve can be written. Try: (setf *print-base* 7) 2015-10-14T03:26:14Z pjb: (* (+ 1 1 1) (+ 1 1 1 1)) #| --> 15 |# 2015-10-14T03:26:58Z pillton: Bike: Thanks. That works across 1.2.12 -> 1.2.16. 2015-10-14T03:27:56Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T03:28:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:28:26Z Bike: it should work in the intermediate ones too, thanks to shenanigans 2015-10-14T03:29:24Z pillton: Yep it does. 1.2.12, 1.2.13, 1.2.14, 1.2.15 and 1.2.16 work. 2015-10-14T03:32:27Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:32:34Z Bike quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-14T03:32:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:33:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:33:19Z pillton: Aww man. That is dodgy. :allow-other-keys t. 2015-10-14T03:33:46Z pillton: I don't understand why that has an effect at runtime. 2015-10-14T03:33:59Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:34:25Z pillton: Crazy. 2015-10-14T03:35:22Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-14T03:35:25Z Bike: well, so that i can do this. 2015-10-14T03:37:18Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T03:37:24Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:39:40Z pillton: Wow. It is in the standard too. 2015-10-14T03:39:44Z pillton: clhs 3.4.1.4 2015-10-14T03:39:44Z specbot: Specifiers for keyword parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 2015-10-14T03:40:01Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-14T03:40:02Z pillton learnt something today. 2015-10-14T03:40:30Z Bike: finding a use for :allow-other-keys nil is the real test 2015-10-14T03:40:46Z nyef: Does :allow-other-keys nil override &allow-other-keys ? 2015-10-14T03:40:57Z Bike: pretty sure 2015-10-14T03:41:26Z nyef: Given two values for :allow-other-keys in an arglist, which one "wins"? 2015-10-14T03:41:29Z pillton: "Note that if &key is present, a keyword argument of :allow-other-keys is always permitted---regardless of whether the associated value is true or false. However, if the value is false, other non-matching keywords are not tolerated (unless &allow-other-keys was used)." 2015-10-14T03:41:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:41:40Z Bike: nyef: leftmost 2015-10-14T03:41:50Z Bike: that one, at least, is explicitly laid out in one of the examples 2015-10-14T03:42:00Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:42:06Z nyef: Examples are not normative, though. 2015-10-14T03:42:07Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:42:10Z Bike: pillton: so it's completely useless... or so it seems 2015-10-14T03:42:36Z Bike: nyef: i think it's implied by keyword processing always being left to right and so on 2015-10-14T03:43:16Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T03:43:27Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T03:44:17Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:44:17Z pillton: I'll have to fix some stuff now. Damn you Bike! :) 2015-10-14T03:45:51Z Bike: What? 2015-10-14T03:45:57Z phoe_krk: well 2015-10-14T03:46:02Z phoe_krk: blast it 2015-10-14T03:46:04Z Bike: oh, did you write a keyword parser that doesn't do this? 2015-10-14T03:46:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:46:11Z phoe_krk: clojure has its ports to Unity3D 2015-10-14T03:46:12Z pillton: Bike: Yeah. 2015-10-14T03:46:16Z phoe_krk: scheme has its ports to Unity3D 2015-10-14T03:46:33Z phoe_krk: common lisp doesn't seem to have any 2015-10-14T03:46:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:47:47Z phoe_krk: it seems that I need a Common Lisp that's able to run on a C#/Mono platform 2015-10-14T03:49:33Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:49:39Z dcorrales joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:49:44Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:50:20Z phoe_krk: ...either that 2015-10-14T03:50:40Z phoe_krk: or I make a two-part application 2015-10-14T03:50:44Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T03:50:48Z mea-culpa quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-14T03:51:06Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:51:14Z phoe_krk: run SBCL alongside Unity3D and connect the Unity to the SBCL-running app 2015-10-14T03:51:27Z phoe_krk cringes at the ugliness of this 2015-10-14T03:51:29Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:55:27Z dcorrales quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T03:55:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T03:55:48Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:56:07Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T03:56:36Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T03:57:13Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:00:11Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:00:41Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:00:49Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I wonder if I could pick people's brains about inlining semantics. 2015-10-14T04:00:52Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:01:06Z Bike: lay it on us bromeister 2015-10-14T04:01:51Z drmeister: DEFUN shouldn't have compile-time side effects - but if (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo () ...) then FOO should be inlined from then on within the compilation unit - yes? 2015-10-14T04:02:23Z drmeister: As long as there are not NOTINLINE declarations 2015-10-14T04:02:34Z Bike: defun can have compile time side effects 2015-10-14T04:02:41Z Bike: clhs even mentions the possibility in relation to inlining 2015-10-14T04:02:45Z drmeister: Which ones are you thinking about? 2015-10-14T04:02:50Z Bike: it's just not _required_ to 2015-10-14T04:03:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:03:05Z Bike: well, for one, it can save the definition for inlining. 2015-10-14T04:04:04Z drmeister: Right - and I'm trying to suss out what those compile time side effects should be wrt inlining and what I should do if I load a fasl that declaims FOO as inline and then I compile-file a file that redefines FOO and also declaims it as inline. 2015-10-14T04:05:01Z drmeister: Thank's to beach's excellent Cleavir compiler I now save the AST of inlined functions for future inlining. 2015-10-14T04:05:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:05:16Z drmeister: Here what I think I should do. 2015-10-14T04:05:18Z Bike: well, loading a fasl is different, that's probably not going to save a definition for inlining. 2015-10-14T04:05:29Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:05:49Z drmeister: You don't think so? Hmm, I have been saving a definition for inlining that is set up a load-time. 2015-10-14T04:06:40Z drmeister: I was thinking at compile-time if I encounter any inlined functions that I would save them in a dynamic environment that would only persist through the compilation-unit. 2015-10-14T04:07:13Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:07:14Z Bike: well, my understanding is that fasls are about load-time effects. and you have to wonder about the point of fasls if they're just going to have the literal definitions anyway. but it would work ok either way, probably. 2015-10-14T04:07:24Z Bike: that sounds right. 2015-10-14T04:08:04Z drmeister: Here's why I'm asking. beach and I had a conversation and he suggested that I save the AST in a slot in the function object. The problem is at compile-time there is no function-object generated, just compiled code for it - so at compile time I have to do something other than associate the AST with the function object. 2015-10-14T04:09:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:09:34Z drmeister: I was thinking that the compile-time inline definitions would shadow the ones in the environment before the compile started and once the compilation-unit is done the compile-time inline definitions would disappear and the ones that were in the environment would reassert themselves. 2015-10-14T04:10:13Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:10:29Z pillton: Can't you store it in the compile time environment? 2015-10-14T04:10:33Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:10:36Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T04:10:44Z drmeister: It might sound like I've got a plan and my mind is made up but I'm fishing for more insight. 2015-10-14T04:11:20Z pillton: (defun function-ast (name environment) ..) 2015-10-14T04:11:48Z drmeister: pillton: Would binding a hash table to a dynamic variable in WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT be storing it in the compile-time environment? 2015-10-14T04:12:02Z drmeister: pillton: I don't follow this: (defun function-ast (name environment) ..) 2015-10-14T04:14:13Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T04:14:15Z pillton: I think you could do that way, but don't you have an environment object to store this information? 2015-10-14T04:14:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:14:51Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:14:59Z pillton: Where do you store type information from declare expressions? 2015-10-14T04:15:35Z nightfly quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-10-14T04:16:11Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T04:16:13Z nightfly joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:16:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:16:53Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:16:58Z pillton: Said another way, couldn't you do it the same way you implement COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION? 2015-10-14T04:17:19Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:19:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:19:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:20:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:20:54Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:23:09Z drmeister: Well, I dont store function type info at the moment. stassats has been teaching me about those just today. compiler macros I store in a dynamic variable using a hash-table 2015-10-14T04:23:12Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:23:17Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T04:23:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:23:54Z WizJin quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-14T04:24:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:24:29Z drmeister: I always thought that those were a kind of environment 2015-10-14T04:25:32Z drmeister: And I'm not disagreeing with you - this is good stuff. 2015-10-14T04:26:45Z drmeister: ECL has this SYSPROP thing - a kind of hash-table of hash-tables that they use to store things that persists through all of run-time. Maybe that's what you mean? 2015-10-14T04:27:19Z drmeister: They store documentation and setf function definitions and whatnot in there. 2015-10-14T04:27:52Z drmeister: Clasp does the same thing - but whenever I do something because "Monkey see, Monkey do" I blame ECL. 2015-10-14T04:28:02Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:28:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:28:38Z pillton: The environment is essentially a hash table. It contains a mapping from names to objects. CLTL2 has functions like variable-information and function-information which you can call from inside macros to get information from the environment. 2015-10-14T04:28:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:29:01Z drmeister: And "blame" is not the right word - "humbly acknowledge the brilliance of the ECL designers" is better. 2015-10-14T04:30:20Z drmeister: Right - so if I create a hash-table ad-hoc and associate names with things for a while (like through a compilation unit) or stuff things in the SYSPROP database I'm modifying the environment. 2015-10-14T04:31:15Z drmeister: Ok, I'll think on it some more - maybe beach will be along later and see this and put his very much appreciated two cents in. 2015-10-14T04:31:49Z pillton: I'll happily admit that I'm not the best person to ask. 2015-10-14T04:32:07Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T04:32:19Z pillton: How would the strategy of dynamic variables work with inlining lexical functions? 2015-10-14T04:32:34Z Vulcan00 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:33:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:33:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:37:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:38:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:39:02Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:39:33Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T04:40:50Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:42:03Z sheilong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T04:42:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:42:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:46:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:47:27Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:47:53Z lisp213 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:48:49Z lisp213 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T04:51:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:51:52Z keen__________13 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:52:07Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:52:39Z keen__________12 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:56:49Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T04:56:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T04:57:01Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T04:57:31Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T05:01:11Z resttime: Is "dynamic programming" some kind of buzzword? 2015-10-14T05:01:36Z resttime: I got curious about it and started reading but it just seems like a normal solution to things in Common Lisp 2015-10-14T05:01:49Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T05:01:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:02:17Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:02:38Z resttime: Like I see the recursive solutions 2015-10-14T05:03:06Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:03:24Z resttime: They seem to make a big deal out of it and I feel bad that I'm not "getting it" 2015-10-14T05:03:26Z Bike: no, it is a term from mathematics 2015-10-14T05:03:54Z Bike: it is several decades old, which is why it doesn't seem very exciting to us modern types 2015-10-14T05:05:48Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:06:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:06:14Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:06:40Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:07:11Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:08:22Z Zhivago: You can consider it to be essentially divide-and-conquer with redundant computation. 2015-10-14T05:08:44Z Zhivago: But, yes, the nomenclature is old rather than hipster. 2015-10-14T05:10:04Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:10:09Z Zhivago: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.kr/2010/04/why-dynamic-programming.html 2015-10-14T05:10:16Z Zhivago: And there you go :) 2015-10-14T05:10:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:11:17Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:13:03Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:13:11Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-14T05:14:24Z resttime: Zhivago: Thank you for that link, not sure why but started laughing really hard 2015-10-14T05:14:33Z resttime: g'morning 2015-10-14T05:15:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:15:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:17:16Z resttime: I guess it just felt kinda weird to me because my friends (compsci majors) have been talking about it for a while now like it was greatest thing ever in c++ 2015-10-14T05:18:06Z resttime: Then when I finally look it up and just see tails and memoizations 2015-10-14T05:19:05Z resttime: Err, not that I mean those concepts aren't important or anything 2015-10-14T05:19:35Z resttime: More like the way they were referred to with something I never encountered up until now 2015-10-14T05:19:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:20:19Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:20:42Z resttime: So that's kind of why I thought "dynamic programming" might have been a buzzword 2015-10-14T05:21:00Z Zhivago: If they'd called it 'overlapping divide and conquer' it would probably have been better. 2015-10-14T05:22:21Z resttime: Yeah that makes more sense to me 2015-10-14T05:22:52Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:23:11Z resttime: "Dynamic programming" just seems as generic to me as "big data" 2015-10-14T05:23:55Z resttime: Like I get the data is big...so what else? What does that even mean? 2015-10-14T05:24:11Z resttime: Errr but anyways think I'm getting off topic so I'll stop here 2015-10-14T05:24:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:25:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:25:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:28:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:28:06Z Zhivago: Dynamic programming is a very specific term. 2015-10-14T05:28:34Z Zhivago: It probably just doesn't mean what you're guessing. 2015-10-14T05:28:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:29:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:29:34Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:29:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:32:26Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T05:32:37Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:32:39Z Vulcan00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:33:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:34:25Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:34:37Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:34:42Z Vulcan00 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:35:33Z resttime: Yeah, I think it's probably as Bike said about being a "modern type" 2015-10-14T05:35:44Z resttime: Well I'm glad I finally learned what it was 2015-10-14T05:37:12Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:38:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:39:04Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:40:25Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-14T05:42:38Z kini joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:43:19Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:43:25Z beach: resttime: Common words are "hijacked" for specific purposes all the time. You might as well get used to it. For example, there is nothing simple about a "simple rewrite system". 2015-10-14T05:43:47Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:44:12Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T05:45:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:47:02Z beach: resttime: While I am on the subject, some terms are invented for "political" purposes. Take "strong typing", for instance. Nobody wants to be "weak", right? Or take "hygienic macros". Since Common Lisp doesn't have hygienic macros, Common Lisp must somehow be unsanitary, right? There are plenty of examples. 2015-10-14T05:47:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:48:25Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:48:41Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:49:12Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T05:52:12Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:52:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:52:59Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:53:08Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:53:34Z RetroEazar joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:53:57Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-14T05:54:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T05:57:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T05:57:34Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:57:48Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T05:58:57Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-14T06:01:19Z kini joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:01:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T06:02:05Z fzappa joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:02:32Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:04:49Z Bahman_ joined 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2015-10-14T06:30:43Z flip214: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/program.php?test=fasta&lang=sbcl&id=6, to be more exact. 2015-10-14T06:31:12Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:31:15Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T06:31:46Z aftershave quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T06:32:58Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-14T06:33:44Z preacherAKAnd quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T06:35:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T06:35:48Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:37:57Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:39:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T06:40:32Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:43:16Z loke: flip214: Do you have a faster version? 2015-10-14T06:44:49Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T06:44:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:45:27Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-14T06:47:50Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T06:48:18Z jdtest 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2015-10-14T07:04:14Z flip214: loke: well, SBCL reports (visible on that page) "; Call to COMMON-LISP-USER::NEXT-RANDOM could not be inlined" 2015-10-14T07:04:25Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:04:59Z flip214: I tried that code, and moving r, ia, ic into *specials* and avoiding the LET around the functions got it ~16% faster for me. 2015-10-14T07:05:03Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:05:37Z summerjazz joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:05:49Z flip214: perhaps "; The first argument is a (VECTOR FLOAT), not a SIMPLE-ARRAY." can be avoided, too... 2015-10-14T07:06:04Z summerjazz left #lisp 2015-10-14T07:06:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:07:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T07:07:34Z summerjazz joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:07:43Z summerjazz left #lisp 2015-10-14T07:08:13Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:09:12Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-14T07:11:29Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T07:12:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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does emacs do this right after startup? http://i.imgur.com/X5G7NNv.png 2015-10-14T09:30:24Z phoe_krk: I mean, it immediately wants to be answered y/n 2015-10-14T09:30:55Z otwieracz: Because somehow you want to start slime for the second time. 2015-10-14T09:31:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T09:31:47Z phoe_krk: otwieracz: hejj 2015-10-14T09:31:56Z phoe_krk: otwieracz: I have no idea how it occcurs though. 2015-10-14T09:32:00Z phoe_krk: my .emacs has it only once. 2015-10-14T09:32:14Z otwieracz: Try to comment it out. 2015-10-14T09:32:42Z phoe_krk: no slime at all now, 2015-10-14T09:32:51Z otwieracz: And go with M-x slime 2015-10-14T09:33:06Z phoe_krk: uh 2015-10-14T09:33:09Z phoe_krk: well, now it works 2015-10-14T09:33:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:33:35Z otwieracz: sorry, bbl 2015-10-14T09:33:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:33:55Z phoe_krk: otwieracz: I see, moving (slime) to the bottommost line helped 2015-10-14T09:34:37Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-14T09:34:38Z phoe_krk: no 2015-10-14T09:34:40Z phoe_krk: it did NOT 2015-10-14T09:34:55Z phoe_krk: damned lispstick 2015-10-14T09:35:26Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:35:57Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-14T09:36:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:37:46Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:37:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:38:01Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:38:21Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:39:45Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:42:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:42:59Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:45:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:45:49Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T09:46:15Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:47:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:47:12Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:47:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:48:31Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:48:33Z sivoais quit (Changing host) 2015-10-14T09:48:33Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:48:44Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T09:48:46Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:49:13Z Vulcan00 quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2015-10-14T09:49:20Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T09:51:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:52:00Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:52:29Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T09:52:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:54:49Z loke: phoe_krk: Why are you using lispstick? It';s severely outdated as far as I know 2015-10-14T09:55:11Z phoe_krk: loke: I've noticed, right now I'm trying to build a custom environment 2015-10-14T09:56:04Z phoe_krk: loke: but, well, um. It was working out of the box. :9 2015-10-14T09:56:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T09:57:19Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:57:38Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:57:38Z sivoais quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T09:58:01Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T09:58:40Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T09:59:38Z pjb: I'd that this should be a lesson for those who'd want to build yet another newbie lisp environment: be prepared to be haunted by its ghost for ages. 2015-10-14T09:59:54Z pjb: +say 2015-10-14T10:00:30Z White_Flame: (I think that'd still be correct without "say", just anachronistic) 2015-10-14T10:00:48Z pjb: yes. 2015-10-14T10:01:03Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:01:23Z pjb: But it's funny how often those rather essential words get skipped when typing; I'm not alone doing that mistake. 2015-10-14T10:01:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:01:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:02:12Z phoe_krk: pjb: I think, be prepared to update it or eager to let someone else do it. 2015-10-14T10:02:38Z White_Flame: or mark on your webpage 'This is really outdated, go use X instead" 2015-10-14T10:05:39Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T10:06:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:06:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:06:41Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:07:06Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:08:51Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:10:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:10:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:11:18Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:14:20Z ski_ is now known as ski 2015-10-14T10:14:33Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:15:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:15:49Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:18:18Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T10:18:24Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:18:54Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:19:35Z UtkarshRay quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T10:19:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:19:54Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:20:32Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:21:30Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:22:46Z phoe_krk: okay, got emacs-w64 up, running and somewhat configured 2015-10-14T10:22:46Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:23:59Z ingvar: Nothing lives as long as a quick, temporary, fix... 2015-10-14T10:24:03Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:24:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:25:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:28:05Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:28:44Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-14T10:28:47Z flip214: loke: and, any results already? 2015-10-14T10:29:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:29:54Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:29:55Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:31:19Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:32:51Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:33:26Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:34:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:34:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:35:44Z loke: flip214: No. I haven't had time to work on it 2015-10-14T10:36:16Z flip214: thanks for your interest, anyway 2015-10-14T10:36:35Z loke: ingvar: Don't you say... I just created a backward-compatibilty function for a feature that shouldn't exist, and renamed it to: load-domains-for-user%obsolete 2015-10-14T10:36:47Z loke: I wonder how long that thing will linger in the code base. 2015-10-14T10:36:52Z phoe_krk: how do I install quicklisp? The website's "load quicklisp.lisp" instruction gives me errors. 2015-10-14T10:37:20Z phoe_krk: "Symbol’s function definition is void: cl:in-package" 2015-10-14T10:38:03Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:38:49Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:39:19Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T10:39:25Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:39:57Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:42:05Z ceryo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:43:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:44:01Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:44:09Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:45:19Z phoe_krk: oh wait 2015-10-14T10:45:23Z phoe_krk: I don't want to go M-x load 2015-10-14T10:45:28Z phoe_krk: I very don't want that 2015-10-14T10:46:16Z phoe_krk: I want to do (load "quicklisp.lisp") in the REPL 2015-10-14T10:46:33Z White_Flame: that is correct 2015-10-14T10:48:06Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:48:10Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:48:40Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:48:48Z scymtym: loke: if you are using SBCL 1.2.15 or newer, you can (declaim (sb-ext:deprecated :early ("my-lib" "version-2") (function foo :replacement bar))) to receive style-warnings (or more severe warnings) at call-sites of deprecated functions 2015-10-14T10:49:56Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:50:30Z atgnag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T10:52:30Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:52:30Z phoe_krk: okay. all set. 2015-10-14T10:52:31Z loke: scymtym: That's cool, but why are you telling me? 2015-10-14T10:52:48Z loke: scymtym: Ah, now I see 2015-10-14T10:53:08Z loke: Thanks 2015-10-14T10:53:47Z scymtym: loke: np. hope it helps 2015-10-14T10:58:09Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T10:58:43Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:58:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T10:59:57Z sivoais joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:01:09Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:01:15Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:03:51Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:04:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:05:30Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:05:45Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:06:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:06:59Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:08:42Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:13:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:15:00Z dstatyvka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:17:55Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:18:02Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:22:07Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:22:13Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T11:23:17Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: you had that funny Lisp music video you posted some time ago, but that I couldn't find on public web. Could I have a link to it? 2015-10-14T11:25:09Z Shinmera: I don't know what you're talking about. 2015-10-14T11:25:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:26:49Z p_l: phoe_krk: aren't you thinking about the Land of Lisp MV? 2015-10-14T11:27:02Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:27:06Z phoe_krk: p_l: I'm thinking about the movie with dancing dots and the awesome music 2015-10-14T11:27:38Z Shinmera: Not really a music video, but I think you're talking about my Flare demos. 2015-10-14T11:28:02Z Shinmera: You can find those here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9Mh3BWdBmt4JtIrwYgihTWp 2015-10-14T11:28:13Z phoe_krk: yes, these are the ones! thanks. 2015-10-14T11:28:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:30:41Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:30:47Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:31:05Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:31:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:33:13Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:33:25Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:34:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:35:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:36:11Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:36:53Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:37:02Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T11:37:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:39:43Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:39:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:40:34Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:41:51Z zwdr joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:42:33Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:44:07Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:45:08Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:45:50Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:48:16Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:48:39Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:49:10Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:50:35Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:51:49Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:51:51Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:51:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:52:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:52:15Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:52:16Z CorpSD joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:52:21Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T11:56:04Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:56:49Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T11:57:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-14T11:58:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:01:17Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:03:19Z phoe_krk: uhh 2015-10-14T12:03:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:03:37Z phoe_krk: I am following the http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html tutorial to bootstrap a tiny ql project 2015-10-14T12:03:50Z phoe_krk: and I have a problem with jumping over to REPL 2015-10-14T12:04:10Z phoe_krk: even if I defvar or defun anything, the REPL doesn't see any of it and claims the variables as unbound 2015-10-14T12:04:37Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:05:00Z White_Flame: are you loading the file/project? 2015-10-14T12:05:14Z White_Flame: or, how are you doing so? 2015-10-14T12:05:29Z nzst joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:05:39Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:06:23Z phoe_krk: I first C-c C-c'd the (in-package #:pkgname) 2015-10-14T12:06:30Z phoe_krk: And then C-c C-c the defvars 2015-10-14T12:06:32Z nzst left #lisp 2015-10-14T12:06:43Z phoe_krk: then when I type them into the REPL, bam, unbound. 2015-10-14T12:06:52Z White_Flame: is your repl in pkgname, or still in CL-USER> ? 2015-10-14T12:06:59Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-14T12:07:01Z phoe_krk: CL-USER 2015-10-14T12:07:02Z phoe_krk: I see now. 2015-10-14T12:07:07Z phoe_krk: what was the command for that? 2015-10-14T12:07:12Z White_Flame: (in-package #:foo) 2015-10-14T12:07:45Z White_Flame: when you compile external source code, that doesn't change the state of the repl, in terms of the current package, last evaluated value, etc 2015-10-14T12:08:00Z White_Flame: it hits the lisp more directly 2015-10-14T12:08:10Z White_Flame: ...lisp image 2015-10-14T12:08:26Z phoe_krk: thanks! got it 2015-10-14T12:08:48Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:08:57Z White_Flame: np 2015-10-14T12:09:04Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:13:45Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:13:53Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:14:34Z phoe_krk: any way to mass-set values for a hash table? or do I need to write my own macro for this? 2015-10-14T12:14:57Z White_Flame: alexandria has helper functions to conver between hashtables and plists/alists 2015-10-14T12:14:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T12:15:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:16:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:16:21Z papachan: how i can disable all SBCL warnings when i refresh my method from slime? 2015-10-14T12:17:05Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:17:21Z phoe_krk: papachan: C-c C-c in the buffer when over a defun? 2015-10-14T12:18:46Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:19:13Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:19:14Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:21:08Z papachan: phoe_krk: compile buffer? 2015-10-14T12:21:35Z phoe_krk: papachan: that compiles the function your cursor is over 2015-10-14T12:21:42Z phoe_krk: papachan: unless we're talking about different things 2015-10-14T12:22:03Z papachan: phoe_krk: ok it show me my method dont compile :p 2015-10-14T12:22:12Z papachan: first i will fix errors 2015-10-14T12:22:16Z phoe_krk: papa: :3 2015-10-14T12:22:23Z phoe_krk: papachan*: :3 2015-10-14T12:23:57Z papachan: OK method show me it compile fine 2015-10-14T12:24:04Z papachan: 0 compiler notes 2015-10-14T12:24:19Z papachan: (No warnings) 2015-10-14T12:25:32Z raphaelss quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T12:25:42Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:25:50Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:27:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:28:33Z CorpSD quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:29:01Z ASCII_Gangster quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-14T12:30:15Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:30:26Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:30:27Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:30:28Z phoe_krk: papachan: so it compiled, and now should be reachable from the REPL 2015-10-14T12:30:34Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:32:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:32:53Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-14T12:35:07Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:35:14Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:39:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:40:15Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:42:36Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:46:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:47:32Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T12:47:39Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:51:57Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:52:06Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T12:56:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T12:58:55Z mea-culpa quit 2015-10-14T13:01:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:04:16Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:04:22Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:07:23Z mtd_ is now known as mtd 2015-10-14T13:09:00Z veckon joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:09:48Z veckon left #lisp 2015-10-14T13:11:19Z papachan: phoe_krk: sure 2015-10-14T13:11:23Z papachan: without warnings 2015-10-14T13:11:50Z phoe_krk: I'm trying to defstruct a connection and I want to have a field in there meant for a socket 2015-10-14T13:11:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:12:06Z phoe_krk: I'm using usocket. I've googled and I have no idea what I should put in the :type 2015-10-14T13:13:34Z phoe_krk: stream-usocket, found it 2015-10-14T13:14:33Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:14:34Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T13:14:45Z inmove` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:16:38Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:16:41Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:16:44Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:16:51Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:17:56Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:18:39Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:20:35Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:22:35Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:24:40Z clop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:24:46Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:25:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:26:04Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:26:31Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:28:26Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:28:51Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:28:57Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:28:58Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:28:59Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:31:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:37:28Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:38:20Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T13:38:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-14T13:39:46Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:40:00Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:46:03Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:47:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:56:25Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T13:58:50Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T13:59:19Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:00:27Z jfe: hi all. can anyone tell me which lisp implementations don't require another lisp to bootstrap? 2015-10-14T14:00:41Z jfe: afaik ECL is one, but are there others? 2015-10-14T14:02:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:03:44Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:04:18Z foom: CLisp I believe 2015-10-14T14:04:34Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-14T14:05:25Z flip214: abcl, if you download the JAR? 2015-10-14T14:05:29Z foom: I believe clisp is typically been used to bootstrap sbcl for those who find comfort in bootstrapping from a C compiler instead of a lisp. 2015-10-14T14:08:36Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:09:24Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T14:10:14Z jfe: foom: i hadn't thought of it that way :) thanks. 2015-10-14T14:12:15Z phoe_krk: is it possible to clear the REPL? 2015-10-14T14:12:28Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:12:48Z phoe_krk: I got it cluttered with a lot of ASCII data, including a lot of parens, is it possible to somehow clear the buffer and have only a fresh prompt in there? 2015-10-14T14:14:31Z phoe_krk: C-c M-o, found it 2015-10-14T14:14:59Z dvb_ua quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:18:59Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:19:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:21:11Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:24:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:24:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T14:32:49Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:33:01Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:34:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:36:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:37:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:38:49Z dxtr: Hi! How do you guys run your lisp in production? 2015-10-14T14:39:04Z dxtr: Is there a 'best practice'? 2015-10-14T14:39:13Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:39:18Z dlowe: It's pretty much the same as any other binary/data push 2015-10-14T14:40:10Z dlowe: if your deployment system cares about the language of your binaries, you should consider changing deployment systems 2015-10-14T14:40:58Z dxtr: dlowe: I don't have a deployment system; I'm just curious 2015-10-14T14:41:46Z dxtr: dlowe: So you're building your stuff with buildapp and then deploying that binary? 2015-10-14T14:42:06Z dlowe: dxtr: not necessarily with buildapp, but yeah 2015-10-14T14:42:19Z dxtr: buildapp or equivalent 2015-10-14T14:42:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T14:43:43Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-10-14T14:43:57Z Shinmera: If you're running your own webservers I wouldn't even bother making a binary. 2015-10-14T14:44:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:44:43Z dlowe: well, he didn't ask how he might do it 2015-10-14T14:44:50Z dlowe: he asked how we did it 2015-10-14T14:45:15Z Shinmera: Yeah and that's how I do it. 2015-10-14T14:45:25Z Shinmera: I don't bother with a binary for webservers. 2015-10-14T14:45:43Z dxtr: dlowe: That's because I want to know how other people do it :P 2015-10-14T14:46:08Z dxtr: Because I'm curious and I can't seem to find any good sources on how to 'properly' run it in production 2015-10-14T14:46:21Z Shinmera: "it" and "production" are rather vague. 2015-10-14T14:46:28Z dlowe: So is "properly" 2015-10-14T14:46:33Z Shinmera: Depending on what exactly those two are different approaches are more or less suitable. 2015-10-14T14:46:57Z dlowe: Best advice is to just stick it up however it works and then try to keep it from breaking. 2015-10-14T14:47:18Z dxtr: Shinmera: It's intentional 2015-10-14T14:47:32Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:47:35Z Shinmera: dxtr: So you're intentionally asking to get no good answer? 2015-10-14T14:47:41Z Shinmera: Seems like a waste of time to me. 2015-10-14T14:48:29Z dxtr: I don't think my question was vague 2015-10-14T14:48:56Z Shinmera: That matters very little 2015-10-14T14:49:22Z dxtr: But the rest is vague because there are many possibilities and I don't want to limit the response 2015-10-14T14:49:37Z dlowe: I really don't see a problem with trying to cast a wide net 2015-10-14T14:49:42Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T14:50:08Z dxtr: And I mean, there are no right or wrong answers here :p 2015-10-14T14:50:20Z Shinmera: Depending on how you define your goal there sure are. 2015-10-14T14:50:51Z dxtr: Shinmera: My goal is to get more knowledge about how other people run lisp (Especially in production environments) 2015-10-14T14:52:01Z Shinmera: Well you already heard the two major variants. Either you dump a binary or you run it verbatim off sources. Anything beside that is quickly going to be very case specific. 2015-10-14T14:52:21Z zwdr: I got a pretty small racket app I run in production -- well, "production", not really a lot of users 2015-10-14T14:52:47Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:52:48Z zwdr: I test it with JIT, then compile and test, and then push the binary to the server 2015-10-14T14:53:01Z zwdr: nothing fancy :s 2015-10-14T14:53:43Z dlowe: Well, the way I do it, you get lots and lots of servers and install your lisp app on all of them using the deployment infrastructure. Then you point lots of monitoring software at it. Then, you get the people in charge of the search page to query your lisp program if the search query looks like an airplane trip. 2015-10-14T14:53:43Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-14T14:53:50Z dlowe: s/do/did/ 2015-10-14T14:54:15Z dxtr: zwdr: That's exactly the kind of response I was hoping for :) 2015-10-14T14:54:29Z jsnell: third method: deploy as an image, push updates as fasls. probably not relevant for servers, but people used to do things like that for client apps 2015-10-14T14:55:07Z Shinmera: For my game and desktop app things I just dump a binary into a folder with the .so s and zip that up for people to download. 2015-10-14T14:55:30Z Shinmera: On the webserver side I use a separate quicklisp dist for more up to date packages and maintain updates through that. 2015-10-14T14:55:40Z Shinmera: *up to date systems 2015-10-14T14:57:13Z dxtr: Shinmera: How do you run the script on the webserver side? Do you just run it in your repl and let it sit there or is there a way to detach it from the terminal? 2015-10-14T14:57:50Z Shinmera: I have an init.d script that launches a screen session. I additionally start a swank server so I can connect to it from my local emacs if need be. 2015-10-14T14:58:02Z dxtr: Right 2015-10-14T14:58:31Z Shinmera: There's things to launch SBCL or whatnot as a daemon, but I've never bothered to try them. 2015-10-14T14:59:16Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-14T14:59:46Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-14T15:00:06Z dxtr: Right! 2015-10-14T15:00:49Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:01:00Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:01:09Z Shinmera: This is why I was so confused by your answer. You just "do it" depending on what you need or want for the case at hand. There's no magic nor any universal recipe. 2015-10-14T15:01:13Z Shinmera: *by your question 2015-10-14T15:01:38Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:01:48Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:02:46Z newdan: Well there is clack 2015-10-14T15:03:00Z Shinmera: What does clack have to do with anything 2015-10-14T15:03:01Z dxtr: Well, some inspiration from other users doesn't hurt 2015-10-14T15:03:14Z newdan: In general most web programming communities *do* have a set of best practices. It's not a ridiculous question 2015-10-14T15:03:58Z Shinmera: Clack doesn't solve anything in particular about deployment from what I can figure. 2015-10-14T15:04:24Z newdan: It makes your app more easily deployable to different HTTP servers by decoupling your app logic from the server implementation 2015-10-14T15:04:34Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:04:39Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-14T15:05:11Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:05:37Z Shinmera: Most of the clack server backends are lisp ones too, so that doesn't really answer the question at hand any. 2015-10-14T15:06:48Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:06:50Z dvb_ua joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:07:59Z newdan: Right. It has nothing to do with running Lisp in production... 2015-10-14T15:08:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T15:09:15Z Shinmera: Since the server is part of your lisp image too just like the rest of the app there isn't really anything particular to do about it. 2015-10-14T15:09:15Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T15:09:55Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:10:04Z Shinmera: One thing that is common though is to put a proxy in front of your lisp server since nginx et al usually handle file serving and HTTPS better than the lisp servers could. 2015-10-14T15:10:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:10:46Z dxtr: I was just about to ask that :p 2015-10-14T15:12:02Z newdan: Shinmera: The fact that the server is also written in Lisp doesn't have any impact on how useful/"good" it is to go through Clack 2015-10-14T15:12:09Z newdan: It still decouples your app from the server 2015-10-14T15:12:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:13:04Z Shinmera: I still don't see how that contributes anything to the question of 'how do you run your thing in production' since clack is a design decision at the point of writing your app. 2015-10-14T15:13:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:14:46Z Shinmera is off to solve exercises 2015-10-14T15:16:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:18:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:18:59Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T15:19:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:20:49Z DeadTrickster: can aslr affect cffi/libffi integration? 2015-10-14T15:20:55Z DeadTrickster: on sbcl 2015-10-14T15:21:17Z brosys quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T15:23:27Z DeadTrickster: I'm trying to solve the same exact problem as described here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32897952/sending-messages-to-rabbit-mq-using-lisp-inside-a-docker-container 2015-10-14T15:23:40Z DeadTrickster: but I'm not using docker, just ubuntu 2015-10-14T15:24:01Z DeadTrickster: memory fault show the same address everytime even on different machines 2015-10-14T15:24:22Z DeadTrickster: glibc, libffi, librabbit versions are the same 2015-10-14T15:24:57Z DeadTrickster: I event statically linked libffi and librabbitmq to sbcl runtime to dunno fix functions addresses, no luck 2015-10-14T15:26:12Z DeadTrickster: error happens after this call: https://github.com/atgreen/libffi/blob/master/src/prep_cif.c#L215 2015-10-14T15:26:35Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:27:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:29:01Z DeadTrickster: this function used to prepare cif structure which is cached by cffi 2015-10-14T15:29:55Z DeadTrickster: if this is done before dumping binary then when code tries to call respective ff following error occurs: ASSERTION FAILURE: cif->abi == FFI_UNIX64 at ../src/x86/ffi64.c:555 2015-10-14T15:31:11Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-14T15:31:35Z DeadTrickster: strace give a bunch of lines like this: --- SIGSEGV {si_signo=SIGSEGV, si_code=SEGV_ACCERR, si_addr=0x10015c1530} --- 2015-10-14T15:31:36Z DeadTrickster: mprotect(0x10015c0000, 32768, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC) 2015-10-14T15:31:41Z DeadTrickster: but with different addresses 2015-10-14T15:33:42Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T15:37:11Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-14T15:37:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:37:31Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:38:19Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T15:38:36Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:39:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T15:42:22Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-14T15:45:18Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T15:46:28Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:47:23Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:47:25Z DeadTrickster: ahh 2015-10-14T15:47:28Z DeadTrickster: don't mind 2015-10-14T15:47:31Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:47:39Z DeadTrickster: static linking librabbitmq finally helped 2015-10-14T15:47:53Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T15:47:54Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-14T15:48:42Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:50:34Z loke_: DeadTrickster: Static linking it? 2015-10-14T15:50:39Z loke_: Why? 2015-10-14T15:51:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-14T15:53:16Z DeadTrickster: see stackoverlow question 2015-10-14T15:54:19Z DeadTrickster: loke_, btw I have a couple of patches here https://github.com/deadtrickster/cl-rabbit/tree/master1 2015-10-14T15:54:23Z DeadTrickster: would you like to merge? 2015-10-14T16:00:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:02:35Z loke_: DeadTrickster: Sure 2015-10-14T16:02:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:03:19Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T16:03:30Z loke_: DeadTrickster: Just send pull requests through github. 2015-10-14T16:04:03Z loke_: I'm not anal about git, but try to post one fix per request, so it's easier for me to check the code prior to merging it. 2015-10-14T16:06:10Z phoe_krk: (slot-value (usocket:socket-connect "random.host.com" 22) :state) why does this fail? 2015-10-14T16:06:14Z phoe_krk: this *should* have a :state slot 2015-10-14T16:06:19Z DeadTrickster: yeah that is actually not that easy. you see this was like mind flow and everything now in single branch. It was too late when I realized that. but there not so much changes 2015-10-14T16:06:25Z DeadTrickster: loke_, 2015-10-14T16:06:29Z loke_: phoe_krk: The slot names are not keywords 2015-10-14T16:06:43Z loke_: DeadTrickster: I'm looking at it now 2015-10-14T16:06:57Z phoe_krk: loke_: with 'state fails as well 2015-10-14T16:07:18Z loke_: phoe_krk: Because just 'state indicates the symbol in your current package 2015-10-14T16:07:30Z loke_: you want the state symbol in the usocket package 2015-10-14T16:07:31Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-14T16:08:03Z loke_: DeadTrickster: Some initial observations: 2015-10-14T16:08:04Z phoe_krk: "The symbol "STATE" is not external in the USOCKET package." 2015-10-14T16:08:11Z phoe_krk: I just began raging 2015-10-14T16:08:22Z loke_: phoe_krk: Yeah, that means you'r enot supposed to access it directly. 2015-10-14T16:08:26Z phoe_krk: then 2015-10-14T16:08:38Z phoe_krk: what is the usocket way of checking whether a server has closed the connection? 2015-10-14T16:08:41Z loke_: phoe_krk: There is probably a reader function. 2015-10-14T16:09:26Z loke_: DeadTrickster: The :persistent thing you created, I'm not sure I like it. At the very least, the magic numbers 1 and 2 should nto be there. There are #defines for those in the library I presume. 2015-10-14T16:09:45Z Oddi2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:09:48Z DeadTrickster: loke_, it is not magic 2015-10-14T16:09:56Z DeadTrickster: they are defined by standard 2015-10-14T16:09:56Z phoe_krk: loke_: I can't see a reader function and the documentation mentions checking the STATE slot *explicitly* 2015-10-14T16:09:57Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/mcna/usocket/blob/187e0ecd58ec0b2093d972e0eb607a50182a3efd/usocket.lisp#L314 2015-10-14T16:10:36Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T16:10:50Z loke_: phoe_krk: Yes, internally in the library yes 2015-10-14T16:10:55Z loke_: but the slot is nt externally exposed 2015-10-14T16:11:01Z loke_: And that's generally done for a reason 2015-10-14T16:12:08Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:12:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:13:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:13:54Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-14T16:14:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:14:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:15:22Z loke_: DeadTrickster: It's mostly good. I have some questions about some of them but I'm going to sleep now 2015-10-14T16:15:38Z DeadTrickster: loke_, yeah I'll be here tomorrow 2015-10-14T16:15:40Z loke_: I'd really appreciate it if you post them separately so that we can discuss them individually 2015-10-14T16:15:50Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T16:15:55Z DeadTrickster: I know and I really want this too 2015-10-14T16:18:25Z loke_: OK, see you later. :-) 2015-10-14T16:18:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T16:18:51Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T16:20:24Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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User inputs something, it gets parsed and input to the server. 2015-10-14T19:00:18Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:00:53Z phoe_krk: Is this a good idea to have a separate thread for a loop that iterates over a list of all connections, checks if anything is on server output / user input streams, if yes, parses and sends it forward? 2015-10-14T19:00:59Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:02:15Z phoe_krk: or is there a better and simpler idea for writing a multiclient? 2015-10-14T19:02:45Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:03:00Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:03:04Z duggiefresh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T19:03:20Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:03:20Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:05:26Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:05:40Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:07:50Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:08:11Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:08:43Z jlarocco: it sounds like you want select()? 2015-10-14T19:08:54Z jlarocco: but I don't know if that exists for flexi-stream 2015-10-14T19:09:19Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:09:40Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:09:47Z dlowe: phoe_krk: sounds like you want iolib 2015-10-14T19:10:10Z phoe_krk: dlowe: please elaborate 2015-10-14T19:10:19Z dlowe: minion: tell phoe_krk about iolib 2015-10-14T19:10:20Z minion: iolib: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/iolib 2015-10-14T19:10:26Z dlowe: seriously? 2015-10-14T19:10:54Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:10:59Z phoe_krk: dlowe: that, I already think I've got through usocket 2015-10-14T19:11:04Z dlowe: phoe_krk: https://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ 2015-10-14T19:11:34Z dlowe: iolib has an event multiplexer that will check multiple connections for input for you 2015-10-14T19:11:49Z phoe_krk: o__o 2015-10-14T19:11:59Z phoe_krk: (ql:quickload "iolib") 2015-10-14T19:12:41Z dlowe: however, it does mean you pass control of your program to the multiplexer. If your connections don't interact at all, you could also try using worker threads to handle incoming connections 2015-10-14T19:13:23Z jlarocco: it looks like usocket's wait-for-input can do it 2015-10-14T19:14:40Z phoe_krk: doesn't wait-for-input hang though? 2015-10-14T19:14:49Z dlowe: the tricky part about handling multiple connections is managing both non-blocking input and output at the same time. 2015-10-14T19:15:27Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:15:27Z dlowe: concurrent blocking IO is the easiest to reason about, but then you get into locking issues with common resources 2015-10-14T19:15:47Z phoe_krk: no iolib for me, dlowe - http://i.imgur.com/WBhqWR1.png 2015-10-14T19:16:12Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: ^^ 2015-10-14T19:16:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:16:26Z dlowe: ah, running on windows? 2015-10-14T19:16:29Z dlowe: iffy 2015-10-14T19:16:31Z phoe_krk: dlowe: yes 2015-10-14T19:16:43Z phoe_krk: dlowe: I need it to be platform-independent 2015-10-14T19:17:20Z phoe_krk: oh 2015-10-14T19:17:21Z phoe_krk: I see 2015-10-14T19:17:35Z phoe_krk: back to usocket~ 2015-10-14T19:18:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:18:15Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2015-10-14T19:19:53Z Brucio-12 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:19:58Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:20:10Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:20:17Z Brucio-12 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-14T19:20:49Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-14T19:20:49Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:21:05Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:21:17Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:22:02Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:22:14Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T19:22:39Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:23:28Z phoe_krk: ugh 2015-10-14T19:23:53Z phoe_krk: is there *no* platform-independent async io that is all CL? 2015-10-14T19:24:59Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: there is, cl-async 2015-10-14T19:25:09Z PuercoPop: well it wraps libuv 2015-10-14T19:25:34Z phoe_krk: "Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libuv.dll")" 2015-10-14T19:25:37Z phoe_krk: wat 2015-10-14T19:25:50Z phoe_krk: after running (ql:quickload "cl-async") 2015-10-14T19:26:14Z H4ns: phoe_krk: there is none. 2015-10-14T19:26:26Z phoe_krk: H4ns: why? 2015-10-14T19:26:46Z H4ns: phoe_krk: because nobody has the time to write and maintain such a thing 2015-10-14T19:26:59Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: you have to install libuv 2015-10-14T19:27:31Z phoe_krk: hm. 2015-10-14T19:27:58Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: iirc the author uses windows sometimes to I'm sure it runs on windows. 2015-10-14T19:27:59Z ziocroc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T19:28:17Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I know, but the external dependency puzzles me 2015-10-14T19:28:45Z ASCII_Gangster joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:29:03Z phoe_krk: libuv is opensource, correct? okay. 2015-10-14T19:29:25Z phoe_krk: this will be amusing. Unity3D on top of SBCL with C dependencies. 2015-10-14T19:29:33Z phoe_krk: this *will* be amusing. 2015-10-14T19:29:51Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: why does it puzzle you? 2015-10-14T19:30:22Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I was wondering how portable that is, but if it's open-source C, then it'll compile almost everywhere 2015-10-14T19:30:52Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/zkat/chanl <- wassat? 2015-10-14T19:31:02Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T19:34:44Z jfe: pwd 2015-10-14T19:34:48Z jfe: oops! sorry :) 2015-10-14T19:35:38Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:38:55Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T19:39:01Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:46:42Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:47:51Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T19:49:27Z BWV989 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:50:14Z phoe_krk: (ql:quickproject) promised me to add my project to the quicklisp list. and it didn't. 2015-10-14T19:52:08Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:54:48Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:55:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:55:53Z kami joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:56:08Z j_king joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:56:49Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: if by quicklis list you mean making it quickloadable add it to quicklisp/local-projects 2015-10-14T19:57:06Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: done, thanks 2015-10-14T19:57:26Z phoe_krk: ugh 2015-10-14T19:57:34Z phoe_krk: quickproject did not do anything to create a config.lisp file 2015-10-14T19:57:47Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:57:56Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T19:58:17Z PuercoPop: what do you expect to be in a config.lisp file? 2015-10-14T19:58:35Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T19:58:42Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T19:59:55Z phoe_krk: oh wait 2015-10-14T19:59:58Z phoe_krk: it was silly me 2015-10-14T20:00:11Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:00:11Z phoe_krk: :components (...(:file "config")) 2015-10-14T20:00:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:01:02Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:03:03Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:03:03Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:03:24Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:03:27Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:04:02Z BWV989 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-14T20:05:35Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:06:10Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-14T20:07:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:08:15Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:08:52Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T20:09:28Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:11:35Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:11:37Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:12:04Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:13:50Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:15:07Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:15:07Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T20:15:08Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:16:01Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:16:06Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:18:32Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:18:39Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:23:44Z cpt_nemo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:24:15Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:24:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:25:23Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T20:25:56Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:26:39Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:29:02Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-14T20:29:57Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:32:52Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-14T20:35:22Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:40:16Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T20:41:58Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:43:17Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-14T20:43:27Z phoe_krk: can I anyhow shorten (flexi-streams:something) to, let's say, (fs:something)? 2015-10-14T20:43:41Z veckon joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:43:58Z gabriel_laddel: phoe_krk: yeah, using nicknames 2015-10-14T20:44:08Z veckon left #lisp 2015-10-14T20:44:20Z gabriel_laddel: M-. into the package itself, check the :nicknames form and see what is there right now. 2015-10-14T20:44:48Z phoe_krk: oh 2015-10-14T20:44:48Z gabriel_laddel: it appears to have the nickname flex: 2015-10-14T20:44:51Z phoe_krk: :flex 2015-10-14T20:44:55Z phoe_krk: good enough, thank you 2015-10-14T20:44:56Z gabriel_laddel: and you can probably just add fs and recompile 2015-10-14T20:45:08Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:46:26Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:48:19Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T20:48:26Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:48:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:49:40Z findiggle joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:50:36Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:51:18Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:51:40Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T20:52:52Z gabriel_laddel: Does anyone have a good understanding of how the McCLIM command parsers tend to work? 2015-10-14T20:53:13Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:53:27Z gabriel_laddel: I'd like to bind C-c C-k & C-x TAB, but it isn't obvious how to express this in the (define-command ...) syntax. 2015-10-14T20:54:01Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-14T20:54:20Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:55:23Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:57:27Z gabriel_laddel: (I'd just examine the sources for the command processor, but my climacs has a busted M-.) 2015-10-14T20:57:28Z phoe_krk: hummm 2015-10-14T20:57:35Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-14T20:58:48Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:59:02Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-14T20:59:25Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-10-14T21:00:19Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T21:00:47Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:01:05Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:01:31Z phoe_krk: I need pipes. 2015-10-14T21:02:47Z phoe_krk: Generally, how do I create a named pipe in CL/SBCL? 2015-10-14T21:03:00Z gabriel_laddel: phoe_krk: what do you mean when you say "pipe"? 2015-10-14T21:03:21Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: a way of transmitting data from one process to another process 2015-10-14T21:03:26Z gabriel_laddel: oh nvm, it appears this is a thing 2015-10-14T21:03:37Z gabriel_laddel: yeah sorry, IDK. 2015-10-14T21:03:46Z gabriel_laddel: is it between two lisp processes? 2015-10-14T21:04:03Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: no, it will be external 2015-10-14T21:04:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:04:15Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: as in, to an outside non-Lisp process 2015-10-14T21:07:41Z gabriel_laddel: Ahha! 2015-10-14T21:07:42Z phoe_krk: once I have that, I can connect SBCL with another processes, which is vital in what I want to do; unless I find out another method of IPC. 2015-10-14T21:07:53Z phf: phoe_krk: anything of that nature will be in sb-posix, for example (sb-posix:mkfifo "pipefile" (logxor sb-posix:S-IRUSR sb-posix:S-IWUSR)) 2015-10-14T21:08:56Z phf: i don't know if there's something built in to sbcl to wrap a posix fd with a lisp stream, but you might have to resort to sb-posix's read/write methods 2015-10-14T21:09:44Z gabriel_laddel: When using ESA, DREI, CLIMACS etc. the appropriate syntax is '((#\c :control )(#\k :control)) & '((#\x :control) (#\tab)) 2015-10-14T21:09:44Z phoe_krk: phf: it's scary, but it looks like I'll have/want to use sockets for that 2015-10-14T21:10:08Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:10:22Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:10:25Z phf: if you're into that kind of kinky shit, you might want to look into C level shared memory, put some locks around it, etc. i've had some success interoping with C programs that way 2015-10-14T21:10:47Z dxtr: Is there a library, or simiar, to read input from the user without showing it on the screen? Like for passwords and such 2015-10-14T21:10:51Z duggiefresh quit 2015-10-14T21:11:11Z phoe_krk: phf: that's kinky shit and I want simply to be able to exchange data between two processes 2015-10-14T21:11:36Z phf: phoe_krk: in that case you're probably best off with good old unix sockets. something like usocket will do just fine 2015-10-14T21:12:33Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:12:37Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:13:00Z phoe_krk: phf: will this be interplatform? my main concern is Windows, because it's not *nix inside 2015-10-14T21:15:31Z phf: phoe_krk: well, usocket is mostly thin layer on top implementation's sockets implementation, that at least in the case of ccl, sbcl and lispworks works on windows 2015-10-14T21:16:05Z phoe_krk: phf: and to use a socket, I'll have to designate a TCP port 2015-10-14T21:16:16Z phoe_krk: I'm very bad when it comes to defining port numbers 2015-10-14T21:16:20Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:17:14Z spacerella joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:17:27Z phf: you'll have to have some form of master slave, where master figures out random ports for slaves to run on, then spawns with ports as params, etc. 2015-10-14T21:17:35Z jdtest2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:17:40Z phf: and then coordinates the failover. it's generally a pita 2015-10-14T21:18:15Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:18:19Z spacerella: has anyone had any luck with raw audio using lispbuilder-sdl on sbcl? 2015-10-14T21:19:09Z phoe_krk: phf: I think I figured it out 2015-10-14T21:19:35Z phoe_krk: phf: master is going to be Unity3D, and this will spawn SBCL 2015-10-14T21:19:38Z PlasmaStar quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-14T21:20:15Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:20:39Z phoe_krk: phf: UnityED can run SBCL with --eval for example, and defvar a port number and a random password that it will then use to connect locally 2015-10-14T21:20:46Z phf: it's generally better to do it the other way around, but that's probably the most portable version, since on mac unity will also pack an .app for you 2015-10-14T21:20:49Z phoe_krk: even without a password 2015-10-14T21:20:50Z PlasmaStar quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-14T21:20:54Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:21:03Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:21:28Z phoe_krk: phf: I need to find a way for Unity3D to bundle a SBCL along 2015-10-14T21:22:04Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T21:22:07Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:22:12Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:22:17Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:22:32Z phf: phoe_krk: yeah, basically. only thing is that instead of passing password as a parameter, it's better to write a "config file" of some sort, that has all the necessary startup details. (this prevents the highly unlikely, but still possible ps wwwaux|grep password attack) 2015-10-14T21:23:20Z phoe_krk: phf: but again, should I really care enough for passwording that? :P 2015-10-14T21:23:29Z phf: right, i wouldn't 2015-10-14T21:23:42Z roo_ is now known as roo 2015-10-14T21:23:52Z phoe_krk: phf: it would be a localhost app connecting to another localhost app 2015-10-14T21:24:08Z phoe_krk: if I already have enough access to be able to intercept sockets, then it means I can already do everything I want 2015-10-14T21:24:44Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2015-10-14T21:24:59Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:25:28Z phf: a totally hypothetical, since this is presumably a game, and you're running it on a "single user" machine, BUT a localhost is still an attack vector. another user on the system could connect to an unpassworded port and do things. traditionally this sort of thing is deal with on unix by having some kind of shared $HOME/.foo_password file 2015-10-14T21:27:08Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:28:09Z phoe_krk: phf: hm, let's assume that the app's temp dir is sandboxed. Unity3D creates a ~/temp/randomkey file that SBCL reads and utilizes, either as a password it says through the socket, or as a key to do 4096-bit RSA. 2015-10-14T21:28:31Z phoe_krk: phf: why the fuck am I doing 4096-bit RSA for a interprocess communication through a socket 2015-10-14T21:28:36Z phf: :D 2015-10-14T21:28:41Z phf: that's totally an overkill 2015-10-14T21:28:48Z phoe_krk: phf: but it's safe 2015-10-14T21:29:05Z phf: entirely cargo cult safety 2015-10-14T21:29:47Z phoe_krk: linux IPC sockets should employ hardware 4096-bit RSA by default 2015-10-14T21:30:00Z phf: now you're just crazy talking 2015-10-14T21:30:04Z phoe_krk: when I'm bored enough (read: never) I'll sit down and write a kernel module for that 2015-10-14T21:30:14Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:30:32Z phoe_krk: so you're sure nobody intercepts your freecatan game 2015-10-14T21:30:39Z phoe_krk: srs bsns 2015-10-14T21:30:59Z phf: pretty sure that's how all the advancements in OSS happen 2015-10-14T21:31:12Z phoe_krk: through 4096-bit RSA? 2015-10-14T21:31:28Z phf: through "nobody intercepts mah freecatan!!!" :> 2015-10-14T21:31:37Z phoe_krk: well 2015-10-14T21:31:41Z phoe_krk: if there's an attack possibility 2015-10-14T21:31:46Z phoe_krk: it needs to be taken care of 2015-10-14T21:32:25Z phoe_krk: hardware 4096-bit RSA on all RAM chips to take care of the cold memory attacks 2015-10-14T21:33:39Z killmaster_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:33:50Z phf: in any case for game ipc you ultimately want shared memory anyway. you want to write unity plugin that presents a shim for whatever functionality your lisp processes exposes, etc. because socket is going to add all kinds of overhead 2015-10-14T21:34:30Z phoe_krk: phf: shared memory? how is this going to happen? 2015-10-14T21:35:12Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:35:12Z killmaster_ is now known as killmaster 2015-10-14T21:35:22Z phoe_krk: phf: what I imagine is a SBCL core sending data to Unity through a simple pipe or anything else that's similar 2015-10-14T21:35:38Z badkins_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T21:35:39Z phoe_krk: a simple stream of bytes 2015-10-14T21:36:44Z phf: phoe_krk: sure, and i think your solution is solid first attempt, no question about it. depending on what sort of data you're pushing back and forth, it might even be appropriate for the entire lifetime of the game 2015-10-14T21:36:59Z phf: but that pipe is going to be a bottleneck eventually 2015-10-14T21:37:14Z phoe_krk: phf: it's ann advanced chat client :P 2015-10-14T21:37:25Z phf: oh, pfft, ignore me :) 2015-10-14T21:37:35Z phoe_krk: it might end up being a few kBps during rush moments 2015-10-14T21:38:55Z phoe_krk: if it was a powerful online game, I'd have to redesign that completely and I have no idea how it'd build against SBCL as being a completely external process 2015-10-14T21:39:02Z ASCII_Gangster quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-14T21:39:05Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T21:40:00Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-14T21:44:15Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T21:45:03Z phf: phoe_krk: you combine together shared memory ipc (here's a unix specific primer, but windows has its own similar version, http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/C/node27.html) with sbcl's foreign function interface http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Foreign-Function-Interface. if you spend time understanding both independently, it should be obvious how to combine them into a unity32<->sbcl ipc mechanism 2015-10-14T21:45:27Z phoe_krk: phf: too hard for me right now, I have to use simpler tools 2015-10-14T21:45:37Z phf: for future reference 2015-10-14T21:45:42Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: I don't know much about unity but wouldn't it be a better idea to use ECL instead of ECL? 2015-10-14T21:46:31Z PuercoPop: Apparently one can link against unity http://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/NativePlugins.html 2015-10-14T21:46:52Z PuercoPop: btw there is also #lispgames in case you are interested 2015-10-14T21:47:15Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-14T21:47:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T21:49:58Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T21:53:05Z spacerella quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-14T21:58:56Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-14T21:59:07Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I'll think about it later, for now, I'm trying to maximize compatibility by using only portable libs 2015-10-14T21:59:22Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T21:59:32Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-14T21:59:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:00:43Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:00:56Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T22:01:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:01:30Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-14T22:05:01Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-14T22:06:46Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T22:08:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:09:36Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:12:46Z phoe_krk: (usocket:socket-stream (usocket:socket-listen "127.0.0.1" 0 :reuse-address t)) 2015-10-14T22:12:49Z phoe_krk: what am I doing wrong? 2015-10-14T22:13:36Z phoe_krk: oh, wait. stream-server-usocket I think 2015-10-14T22:15:28Z phoe_krk: uhh, no. 2015-10-14T22:16:27Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:16:53Z phoe_krk: oh, wait, I have read more on that 2015-10-14T22:19:21Z phoe_krk: http://mihai.bazon.net/blog/howto-multi-threaded-tcp-server-in-common-lisp just what I was looking for 2015-10-14T22:19:36Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:19:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:20:57Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:21:29Z gabriel_laddel: phoe_krk: for whatever it's worth, I've had trouble getting messages to reliably pass between 2 machines using Usocket. 2015-10-14T22:21:53Z gabriel_laddel: Actually, I have the issue on one machine (messages are dropped). 2015-10-14T22:22:10Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: ;_____; 2015-10-14T22:22:17Z gabriel_laddel: Yeah. 2015-10-14T22:22:27Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: ah, screw it 2015-10-14T22:22:38Z gabriel_laddel: Swank has socket stuff in it somewhere, using an SBCL contrib iirc. 2015-10-14T22:22:39Z phoe_krk: gabriel_laddel: I'll code it first and worry about the libs later 2015-10-14T22:22:59Z gabriel_laddel: point being, swank works slime/swank works great. 2015-10-14T22:23:21Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:23:37Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:23:40Z phf: someone ought to write a c/c++ library to do swank rpc :> 2015-10-14T22:23:47Z gabriel_laddel: lol 2015-10-14T22:24:35Z Devon: Lispers for hire? 2015-10-14T22:24:51Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: pardon? 2015-10-14T22:25:37Z Devon: Any lispers available for full time work, please contact me. 2015-10-14T22:26:34Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: I'm available. CV: gabriel-laddel.github.io/cv.html 2015-10-14T22:27:30Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:27:37Z Devon: explicate ... future generations ... *grin* 2015-10-14T22:28:13Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:29:05Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: Additionally, I happen to know williamdunne is looking for work. 2015-10-14T22:29:28Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/williamdunne/ 2015-10-14T22:30:18Z gabriel_laddel: (I've his email. Email me and I'll connect the two of you.) 2015-10-14T22:33:59Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T22:35:55Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: now that I think about it, ben_vulpes might also be interested in some CL work. 2015-10-14T22:35:57Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:36:15Z gabriel_laddel: (plug that name into the same WoT URL scheme...) 2015-10-14T22:36:53Z phoe_krk: I designed a defstruct slot as :type stream. 2015-10-14T22:37:02Z phoe_krk: why can't I put a nil in that? 2015-10-14T22:37:37Z Bicyclidine: because nil isn't a stream? 2015-10-14T22:38:07Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I *need* to put something there that obviously is not a valid stream 2015-10-14T22:38:16Z Bicyclidine: :type (or null stream) 2015-10-14T22:38:19Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:38:27Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:38:35Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: ugly hack :< but okay, thanks 2015-10-14T22:39:08Z Bicyclidine: what's ugly about it? you want a stream or a special not-stream, so that's your type 2015-10-14T22:40:32Z |3b|: yeah, don't see how putting the correct type is an "ugly hack" 2015-10-14T22:40:49Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-14T22:40:50Z phoe_krk: I'm used to nulls being valid everywhere (thanks, Java) 2015-10-14T22:41:05Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:41:12Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:41:16Z Bicyclidine: that's because of null pointers, which are dumb 2015-10-14T22:41:36Z Bicyclidine: you're not doing anything with pointers, you're dealing with streams and objects and things 2015-10-14T22:42:10Z Bicyclidine: even hoare doesn't like em 2015-10-14T22:42:11Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-14T22:42:21Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: Two more names that come to mind: Robert Smith & Andy Hefner. 2015-10-14T22:42:31Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: both of them are *very* talented. 2015-10-14T22:43:16Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:43:56Z gabriel_laddel: Robert is Quadrescence on freenode, and is sometimes in here and #symbo1ics 2015-10-14T22:45:43Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-14T22:46:10Z phoe_krk: night, everyone 2015-10-14T22:48:03Z findiggl` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:48:05Z findiggle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T22:50:44Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:53:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T22:58:00Z |3b| wonders if (funcall foo ... :allow-other-keys t ...) is a reasonable way to pass extra details to a user-provided callback so the user doesn't need to care about them if they don't want them 2015-10-14T22:59:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T23:04:48Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: You're Devon Schudy? 2015-10-14T23:10:49Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:11:21Z hichsoft joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:13:48Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:15:32Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:16:51Z mach joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:17:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:22:09Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:23:03Z Devon: gabriel_laddel: Devon Sean McCullough 2015-10-14T23:26:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:30:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:31:33Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:35:51Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:36:06Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:39:31Z pjb: |3b|: I believe as long as the function bound to foo takes keyword arguments. 2015-10-14T23:40:07Z |3b|: ah, right 2015-10-14T23:40:12Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T23:40:15Z |3b|: i guess that makes it a bit less convenient 2015-10-14T23:40:19Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:41:08Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dada.htm 2015-10-14T23:41:33Z |3b|: yeah 2015-10-14T23:41:53Z pjb: "Each element of a lambda list is either a parameter specifier or a lambda list keyword. Implementations are free to provide additional lambda list keywords." Notice: an implementation cannot add &key when there are none to begin with. 2015-10-14T23:42:06Z gabriel_laddel: Devon: were you ever at Symbolics? 2015-10-14T23:42:18Z gabriel_laddel: Or LMI for that matter. 2015-10-14T23:42:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:42:53Z pjb: |3b|: On the other hand, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_eae.htm :allow-other-keys t allow non-keyword keys in the arguments :-) 2015-10-14T23:43:18Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-14T23:44:00Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:44:36Z pjb: |3b|: I don't find it explicitely written that :allow-other-keys is not allowed when there isn't a &key, but that's what I would infer from the first quote above. 2015-10-14T23:45:32Z pjb: |3b|: well, it seems to be covered by: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_eac.htm 2015-10-14T23:45:36Z |3b|: right, i wouldn't expect it to work without &key either, now that i've thought about it 2015-10-14T23:45:44Z pjb: since :allow-other-keys is an argument itself. 2015-10-14T23:46:00Z |3b|: right 2015-10-14T23:46:58Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-14T23:48:55Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:50:16Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T23:50:23Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:52:11Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: later) 2015-10-14T23:54:59Z dTal joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:55:50Z dTal: So I wanted to test drive this: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/ 2015-10-14T23:56:21Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-14T23:56:27Z dTal: So I did "aptitude install clisp", ran clisp, and typed (load "sedit.lisp"), which returned true. 2015-10-14T23:56:47Z dTal: But the definitions in the file are still not visible in the REPL. 2015-10-14T23:57:32Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-14T23:57:33Z dTal: I also tried clisp -repl sedit.lisp , with the same result of course. 2015-10-14T23:57:41Z pjb: Good. 2015-10-14T23:57:41Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T23:57:41Z pjb: Then you can type: (com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit:sedit) or (in-package :com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit) (sedit) 2015-10-14T23:57:51Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:58:32Z dTal: Thank you very muchly indeed. 2015-10-14T23:58:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:58:46Z dTal: Knew it had to be simple! 2015-10-14T23:59:15Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:59:17Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-14T23:59:39Z pjb: The file defines a package, and defines only symbols interned in that package. 2015-10-14T23:59:39Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T23:59:41Z whartung quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-14T23:59:43Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:59:46Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-14T23:59:47Z pinterface joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:00:00Z pjb: So you can load it in your own images without conflicting with your own symbols. 2015-10-15T00:00:02Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:00:03Z pjb: The first form (com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit:sedit) gives the qualified symbol name, prefixing the symbol name with the package name (conjoined with a colon). 2015-10-15T00:00:11Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:00:11Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:00:12Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:00:44Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:00:44Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:01:09Z pinterface1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:01:30Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-10-15T00:01:50Z pjb: The file defines a package, and defines only symbols interned in that package. 2015-10-15T00:01:51Z vert2 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:01:59Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:02:00Z pjb is now known as Guest19227 2015-10-15T00:02:15Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:02:23Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:02:28Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T00:02:29Z Guest19227 left #lisp 2015-10-15T00:02:33Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:02:42Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:02:42Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:02:48Z dTal: Well. Thanks, Guest19227. 2015-10-15T00:02:48Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:03:12Z pjb: Can you run it now? 2015-10-15T00:03:12Z dTal: Ah, you're back. Thanks pjb. 2015-10-15T00:03:33Z dTal: Yes it certainly runs. Although I haven't persuaded it accept a command yet. 2015-10-15T00:04:06Z pjb: It uses standard lisp I/O, so the terminal is line-buffered, and you have to type RET after each command. 2015-10-15T00:04:29Z pjb: In an actual editor you would want to use raw I/O to accept single-character commands. 2015-10-15T00:04:51Z dTal: I do, but all I ever get is "Please use one of these commands: ". 2015-10-15T00:05:15Z grindhold quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:05:48Z gabriel_laddel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:06:25Z pjb: yes, there seem to be a problem with the first option. If you don't do (in-package …), then the commands you type are read in the current package and the symbols are different. 2015-10-15T00:06:50Z pjb: so type: com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit::quit RET 2015-10-15T00:07:00Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:07:04Z pjb: to exit the sedit, and (in-package :com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.sedit) (sedit) 2015-10-15T00:07:21Z pjb: (sedit (list 'hi)) ; I mean. 2015-10-15T00:07:51Z dTal: eh, I ctl-Cd out but I'm there now. 2015-10-15T00:07:57Z dTal: Lovely 2015-10-15T00:09:15Z dTal: looks like it should port to Scheme pretty nicely 2015-10-15T00:09:26Z dTal: not much fancy in there 2015-10-15T00:09:54Z pjb: you might even be able to find existing sedit written in scheme already. 2015-10-15T00:09:58Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:10:18Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:11:47Z pjb: dTal: see also: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/HcCEhM9HpCc[101-125] 2015-10-15T00:11:47Z dTal: heh, I dunno. I've scoured the net for structure editors and this is about all I could find - seems like everyone uses Emacs and paredit 2015-10-15T00:11:54Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:12:04Z pjb: dTal: indeed, for real work, we use emacs and paredit. 2015-10-15T00:12:32Z pjb: dTal: but it's more because there are millions of man.year invested behind GNU emacs, than anything else. 2015-10-15T00:12:53Z pjb: Check that news article. 2015-10-15T00:13:19Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:13:39Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:14:03Z dTal: it's interesting but ultimately focuses too much on the text I think 2015-10-15T00:14:13Z pjb: dTal: the argument is that what you type in text in emacs can actually be interpreted by a structural editor (such as sedit). That is, instead of typing in RET, you can type just ( and instead for out RET you type ). 2015-10-15T00:14:22Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:14:52Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:14:59Z pjb: The sedit commands (apart from replace) correspond 1-1 to ( ) C-M-f C-M-b and other paredit commands. 2015-10-15T00:15:08Z grindhold joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:15:17Z dTal: That's the impression I got. Maybe this is the classic PBCAK problem, but I always manage to get unbalanced parens within a few seconds of entering paredit mode 2015-10-15T00:15:36Z hlavaty` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:15:49Z pjb: dTal: this only occur when you do unbalanced copy/paste. 2015-10-15T00:15:59Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:16:32Z pjb: If you use eg. C-M-k to kill a sexp, then C-y will yank a whole sexp and you won't have any unbalanced parenthesis. 2015-10-15T00:17:08Z pjb: M- paredit-splice-sexp-killing-backward is nice too. 2015-10-15T00:17:25Z dTal: I'm sure I'm just stupid. Anyway no better way to understand the wheel than to reinvent it 2015-10-15T00:17:40Z pjb: There's a whole catalog of paredit kill commands. 2015-10-15T00:17:46Z pjb: Inded. 2015-10-15T00:17:49Z pjb: Indeed. 2015-10-15T00:18:17Z dTal: Do you have any "big ideas" or is Emacs perfect? 2015-10-15T00:19:13Z pjb: GNU Emacs is not perfect. For one thing, it's core is written in C. (I have the project of implementing a C to CL translator to translate this GNU emacs core into CL, and get rid of C). 2015-10-15T00:19:38Z pjb: dTal: if you're interested, read: https://www.finseth.com/craft/ 2015-10-15T00:19:43Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:20:00Z pjb: dTal: as a program architecture, an emacs is perfect. 2015-10-15T00:20:13Z pjb: All programs should be written as emacsen. 2015-10-15T00:20:46Z p8m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:21:26Z dTal: It's certainly inspiring 2015-10-15T00:21:44Z pjb: I mean, all interactive programs at least :-) 2015-10-15T00:24:19Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:24:35Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:25:29Z hydan: Can anybody comment on how well/ill suited RPython would be for writing a CL implementation? 2015-10-15T00:25:33Z dTal: See I have this Big Idea, that s-exps are essentially isomorphic to HTML, and that instead of rendering the program as text you could do it as webpage structure 2015-10-15T00:25:42Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:26:02Z pjb: dTal: another good reading on the subject is https://books.google.fr/books?id=yoXkBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=structural+editor+generator+synthesizer+-music&source=bl&ots=8nwaOcqUc0&sig=zdUBTe4gV_SJMw-b4MuTm85uTHs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMIrujBsZvDyAIVQ1YaCh3sJg6W#v=onepage&q&f=false 2015-10-15T00:26:33Z pjb: You can get it at https://www.ics.uci.edu/~taylor/ics228/SynGen.pdf 2015-10-15T00:26:49Z dTal: and that you could then intelligently style it with CSS, and you could write the whole thing in javascript-based Scheme which could run extensions in javascript or anything that compiles to it... 2015-10-15T00:26:57Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:27:07Z pjb: dTal: notice that works in emacs tend to that, with cedet and its collection of parser generators (bovinator, etc). 2015-10-15T00:27:38Z pjb: dTal: somebody worked on these ideas of multiple representation of code a few years ago. 2015-10-15T00:29:10Z dTal: that book looks fascinating 2015-10-15T00:29:45Z dTal: I'm shocked no one's tried to make a Scratch-alike backed by a real lisp 2015-10-15T00:29:45Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:29:49Z pjb: http://yaxu.org/visualisation-of-live-code/ 2015-10-15T00:30:03Z f3lp joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:30:24Z pjb: dTal: that would certainly be an interesting project. You'd be a lisp hero, if you could implement something like Scratch on lisp. 2015-10-15T00:30:25Z f3lp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T00:31:56Z dTal: the trick is to make something that scales from beginner to expert smoothly 2015-10-15T00:32:18Z dTal: all that dragging and dropping in Scratch gets awful tedious after a short while 2015-10-15T00:32:36Z pjb: Of course. 2015-10-15T00:32:36Z Brucio-12 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:32:53Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:32:57Z Brucio-12 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-15T00:33:10Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-15T00:33:10Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:34:15Z yeltzooo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:35:27Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:36:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:38:16Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:38:26Z dTal: Oh wow, someone did sort of think along similar lines: https://github.com/nicferrier/emacs-ejit 2015-10-15T00:38:51Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:38:59Z pjb: Compiling emacs lisp is easy. 2015-10-15T00:39:12Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:39:19Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:39:36Z dTal: Although I don't know how useful most .el files would be if you did away with the notion of "text buffer" entirely. 2015-10-15T00:39:41Z pjb: Implementing all the emacs lisp functions that are implemented in C is a bigger job. 2015-10-15T00:39:51Z pjb: Not much indeed. 2015-10-15T00:41:36Z Viaken: pjb: I remember seeing a site where the person was trying to convert emacs' core from C to CL. I can't seem to find it currently. 2015-10-15T00:41:54Z Viaken: It was their post-doc project or something, IIRC. 2015-10-15T00:41:57Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:42:03Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:42:03Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2015-10-15T00:42:03Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:42:06Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:42:09Z pjb: Yes, Tom's blog. 2015-10-15T00:42:21Z dTal: oh wow I only just noticed you're the author of Sedit. Nice work man. 2015-10-15T00:42:23Z pjb: But we have different approaches. 2015-10-15T00:42:24Z gabriel_laddel: Viaken: He never got very far iirc 2015-10-15T00:42:27Z Viaken: Very probably. 2015-10-15T00:42:45Z pjb: It must be automatic, otherwise it's too much work. 2015-10-15T00:42:47Z Viaken: gabriel_laddel: Yeah, it seems it dried up at some point. 2015-10-15T00:42:53Z gabriel_laddel: Viaken: CLIMACS is usable, if you're looking to go in that direction. 2015-10-15T00:43:02Z gabriel_laddel: I'm using it now actually. 2015-10-15T00:43:03Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:43:05Z gabriel_laddel: And BeIRC 2015-10-15T00:43:25Z Viaken: I'd not heard of BeIRC. 2015-10-15T00:43:31Z dTal: There's not a useful Scheme one is there? 2015-10-15T00:43:32Z gabriel_laddel: XREF is broken out of the box, but I'll probably have fixed it in the next hour or so. 2015-10-15T00:43:49Z Viaken: dTal: Scheme emacsen? 2015-10-15T00:43:51Z gabriel_laddel: Viaken: BeIRC is an IRC client written on top of McCLIM 2015-10-15T00:43:53Z dTal: Yeah 2015-10-15T00:44:06Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:44:17Z Viaken: I don't recall coming a cross a usable one. 2015-10-15T00:44:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T00:44:22Z gabriel_laddel: The problem with the scheme emacsen is that they're not really scheme. All the scheme GUI libraries bind to something else iirc 2015-10-15T00:44:25Z pjb: dTal: probably there are a few useful scheme implementation. But the problem is that they're not compatible. All the CL implementations are compatible, most libraries and programs run on most the CL implementations. 2015-10-15T00:44:38Z gabriel_laddel: McCLIM on the other hand is 100% CL. 2015-10-15T00:44:38Z pjb: dTal: MIT scheme has edwin, an emacs written in scheme. 2015-10-15T00:45:07Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:45:23Z pjb: dTal: there's also Hemlock in CL (you may try it on MacOSX inside Clozure CL.app). 2015-10-15T00:45:26Z yeltzooo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:45:35Z pjb: dTal: try Hemlock and edwin, to see what you miss from GNU emacs ;-) 2015-10-15T00:46:07Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: you're implying that much is missing? 2015-10-15T00:46:22Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:46:58Z pjb: No, I'm implying that an emacs user has dependencies and expectations on a lot of emacs libraries and contributions. 2015-10-15T00:47:07Z pjb: Eg. org-mode, doctor-mode, slime, etc. 2015-10-15T00:47:12Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: I see... 2015-10-15T00:47:12Z dTal: Oh, I don't use Emacs enough to miss it :) It's a bit like a foreign city - I get a rush from visiting but pretty soon I just want to go home to my humble text editor :) 2015-10-15T00:47:18Z Viaken: org-mode is very nice. 2015-10-15T00:47:34Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: I tried ql:quickloading hemlock just now, it appears to use FFI 2015-10-15T00:47:40Z gabriel_laddel: Meh... 2015-10-15T00:47:45Z pjb: dTal: in that case, any emacsen will be good for you; but beware getting familiar with one and depend on its specificities ;-) 2015-10-15T00:48:02Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: yes, since it uses X11. 2015-10-15T00:48:16Z Viaken: pjb: Where is your project at? 2015-10-15T00:48:34Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T00:48:57Z pjb: Viaken: http://informatimago.com/ https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago 2015-10-15T00:49:21Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/languages 2015-10-15T00:50:20Z pjb: I've got cpp implemented; I'm working on the c11 parser. 2015-10-15T00:51:16Z pjb: I guess I will write a CL code generator before doing a source translator, since having a C compiler targetting lisp images would be a good thing, to use C libraries. 2015-10-15T00:51:17Z Viaken: huh 2015-10-15T00:51:17Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:52:01Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-10-15T00:57:44Z papachan: Petit_Dejeuner: french? 2015-10-15T00:58:21Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:00:44Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:02:28Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:04:04Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T01:05:35Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:07:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:09:40Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:12:04Z akkad: Petit_De󠁠jeuner 2015-10-15T01:12:09Z akkad: hmm that did not workj 2015-10-15T01:12:57Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:14:33Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:16:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: papachan: non, j'etudie francais 2015-10-15T01:16:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: which is why I have no international keyboard setup and everything is spelled/grammar wrong 2015-10-15T01:17:00Z dan64 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:18:42Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:21:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:22:25Z papachan: Petit_Dejeuner: ah ok 2015-10-15T01:22:28Z papachan: is fine 2015-10-15T01:28:04Z hichsoft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:28:59Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T01:29:05Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:30:10Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:30:31Z hichsoft joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:33:49Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:37:13Z hichsoft quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:39:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:40:31Z ski: minion: chant 2015-10-15T01:40:31Z minion: MORE BECAUSE 2015-10-15T01:41:01Z hichsoft joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:43:01Z Lord_Nightmare: is there an archive of lisp tidbits somewhere which are licensed mit/bsd? 2015-10-15T01:43:11Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:43:20Z Lord_Nightmare: most everything i see is gpl or lgpl, which isn't going to work for the project i'm planning 2015-10-15T01:45:40Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:45:49Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:46:03Z dTal is curious about the project 2015-10-15T01:46:22Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:46:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:47:32Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:50:44Z loke: Lord_Nightmare: You sure about that? Most lispers seem to be using BSD or MIT because the rules about GPL and LIsp are su fuzzy 2015-10-15T01:51:57Z Lord_Nightmare: hmm maybe i found an old library 2015-10-15T01:52:04Z Lord_Nightmare: from the early days of clisp 2015-10-15T01:52:34Z Lord_Nightmare: i wonder; does the clisp author still have a copy of the v1.0 source code from 1987 or whatnot? since that code was licensed bsd but was violating gpl on libreadline 2015-10-15T01:52:43Z Lord_Nightmare: there exist several bsd readline implementations now 2015-10-15T01:52:47Z Lord_Nightmare: so its possible... 2015-10-15T01:52:56Z dTal: what's fuzzy about the GPL and lisp? 2015-10-15T01:53:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:54:59Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T01:58:45Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T01:58:52Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T01:59:42Z Zhivago: Linkage semantics. 2015-10-15T02:00:14Z aeth: loke: afaik it's LGPL that's a mess not GPL. 2015-10-15T02:00:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:00:48Z aeth: And LLGPL doesn't help. Adding conditions to a more popular license is generally a bad thing. 2015-10-15T02:02:21Z aeth: So libraries kind of have to be MIT or BSD afaik if you don't want a(n afaik) never-tested license like the LLGPL. 2015-10-15T02:02:38Z Desmaad joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:03:07Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T02:03:14Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:03:58Z loke: aeth: Well, depends on what you mean by mess. GPL lisp code has even more issues than LGPL, unless you consider those issues to be benefits and you chose GPL for that very reason. 2015-10-15T02:04:29Z aeth: loke: well for application code it's less of an issue to use GPL. 2015-10-15T02:04:51Z aeth: afaik 2015-10-15T02:05:14Z aeth: But I try to stay away from LGPL/LLGPL libraries. 2015-10-15T02:05:25Z loke: aeth: We're not talking about self-contained applications here (at least that's not what the original question was about). Also, for self-contained applications there is no difference between GPL and LGPL 2015-10-15T02:05:41Z loke: aeth: Sama here. It's just a mess. 2015-10-15T02:06:25Z aeth: I'm sympathetic to the concept, I just don't like the possible issues that could come up. 2015-10-15T02:09:44Z aeth: I think the consensus is slowly building up around MIT for Lisp library licenses. It would be interesting to see the numbers. 2015-10-15T02:09:47Z hichsoft quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T02:10:45Z Lord_Nightmare: are there any well known lgpl/llgpl libraries where all authors are known, and we could ask for relicensing? 2015-10-15T02:10:46Z gabriel_laddel: Wow wow wow wow.. 2015-10-15T02:10:53Z gabriel_laddel: The DREI implementation is amazing. 2015-10-15T02:11:10Z gabriel_laddel: I thought to myself "oh hey, I'll have to implement XREF, structural editing etc." 2015-10-15T02:11:22Z gabriel_laddel: Nope. It's already all been done. 2015-10-15T02:12:35Z loke: Wgat is drei? 2015-10-15T02:14:19Z gabriel_laddel: DREI Recursively Expands Itself 2015-10-15T02:14:34Z gabriel_laddel: DREI Reimplements Emacs Intelligently 2015-10-15T02:14:39Z gabriel_laddel: etc. 2015-10-15T02:15:50Z loke: I se,. I foyund it in mcclim 2015-10-15T02:15:54Z loke: How do you start it? 2015-10-15T02:17:10Z gabriel_laddel: loke: It is easiest to run CLIMACS and use it there. 2015-10-15T02:17:48Z loke: gabriel_laddel: Isn't climacs a different editor? 2015-10-15T02:18:00Z gabriel_laddel: loke: it is implemented on top of drei 2015-10-15T02:19:33Z loke: Hmm, I just started climacs and realised quickly why I never tried to use it before 2015-10-15T02:19:40Z gabriel_laddel: loke: why? 2015-10-15T02:19:45Z loke: I feel like a beginner trying vi for the first time 2015-10-15T02:19:52Z gabriel_laddel: loke, try it, really. 2015-10-15T02:19:54Z loke: Absolutely no keypresses do anytything reasonable 2015-10-15T02:19:58Z gabriel_laddel: haha 2015-10-15T02:20:03Z gabriel_laddel: just rebind them. 2015-10-15T02:20:05Z loke: I can't even open a file. 2015-10-15T02:20:12Z gabriel_laddel: C-x C-f 2015-10-15T02:20:22Z loke: C-X not bound 2015-10-15T02:20:34Z loke: C-F not bound 2015-10-15T02:20:36Z gabriel_laddel: For doing actual development it needs to be used in conjunction with the CLIM Listener 2015-10-15T02:21:11Z gabriel_laddel: loke: hrm. IDK why it doesn't work on your box. It's fine here. 2015-10-15T02:21:33Z loke: All I did was quickliad climacs and (climacs:climacs) 2015-10-15T02:21:36Z gabriel_laddel: Anyways, it has keybindings for almost everything you'd expect from emacs + slime/swank 2015-10-15T02:21:59Z gabriel_laddel: loke: try (ql:quickload 'clim-listener) 2015-10-15T02:22:08Z gabriel_laddel: then (clim-listener::run-listener) 2015-10-15T02:22:14Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-15T02:22:46Z gabriel_laddel: then from there, evaluate the form (clim-listener::com-edit-file #P"/.../some-lisp-file.lisp") 2015-10-15T02:23:20Z Desmaad quit 2015-10-15T02:23:30Z goglosh left #lisp 2015-10-15T02:23:51Z gabriel_laddel: Anyways, for actual development it seems I'll have to bounce back between the listener and CLIMACS. At the listener I've got a command COM-LS-SYSTEM which does just that, and I open files from there, as I've somehow broken the M-. 2015-10-15T02:24:38Z loke: I see 2015-10-15T02:24:51Z loke: That said, all control keybindings still don't work. 2015-10-15T02:25:04Z gabriel_laddel: loke: do you at least have self-insert-commands? 2015-10-15T02:25:15Z loke: I do. As well as arrow keys 2015-10-15T02:25:24Z gabriel_laddel: loke: and you're in Lisp mode? 2015-10-15T02:25:31Z loke: Yes 2015-10-15T02:25:48Z mmaul joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:25:52Z gabriel_laddel: loke: Can you M-x? 2015-10-15T02:25:59Z gabriel_laddel: loke: if so, try M-x Find File 2015-10-15T02:26:32Z loke: yes. that workd 2015-10-15T02:26:46Z loke: although there is no tab expansion in the file selection in the minibuffer 2015-10-15T02:26:56Z loke: and I can't cancel it because control-g don't work 2015-10-15T02:27:00Z gabriel_laddel: loke: I know I know, you've got to use the listener to find files 2015-10-15T02:27:03Z gabriel_laddel: which sucks 2015-10-15T02:28:04Z gabriel_laddel: can you at least evaluate forms using M-: ? 2015-10-15T02:28:19Z loke: Yes, I can 2015-10-15T02:28:24Z gabriel_laddel: It sounds like your editor table isn't bound or something 2015-10-15T02:28:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T02:28:49Z loke: I see lots of potential here. A bity development died. 2015-10-15T02:28:51Z loke: pity 2015-10-15T02:30:30Z gabriel_laddel: loke: if you look at the DREI implementation you'll see that they implemented everything necessary for a CL only editor. 2015-10-15T02:30:31Z mmaul: So what are everyone's favorite documentation systems? I'm currently using CLOD, and was thinking about trying something else. 2015-10-15T02:30:34Z gabriel_laddel: And then some. 2015-10-15T02:31:21Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T02:32:24Z gabriel_laddel: brb dinner. 2015-10-15T02:33:06Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:36:58Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:39:09Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T02:40:22Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T02:40:30Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:43:06Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T02:43:13Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:45:22Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:48:35Z g_SG: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846 2015-10-15T02:48:44Z g_SG: guys! shine some light on my first macro please? 2015-10-15T02:49:19Z g_SG: anyone mind taking a look at the paste? 2015-10-15T02:50:15Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-15T02:50:17Z pilne quit (Quit: I hit quit!) 2015-10-15T02:53:29Z resttime: g_SG: What seems to be the problem? 2015-10-15T02:53:54Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T02:54:07Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-15T02:54:24Z resttime: You might want to map a FUNCALL and I don't think you need PLOTLISTS to be a macro 2015-10-15T02:54:31Z |3b|: g_SG: why is it a macro? 2015-10-15T02:54:38Z phf: that macro wouldn't work either 2015-10-15T02:55:00Z g_SG: resttime: yeah mapping a funcall makes more sense 2015-10-15T02:55:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:55:28Z phf: your ll is in compiler context, where's your '(eazy-gnuplot:plot ... ll) is in eval context 2015-10-15T02:55:55Z g_SG: the errors thrown are so puzzling to me 2015-10-15T02:56:39Z g_SG: such as, if i try to compile scatter, it says "the value LISTS is not of type LIST" 2015-10-15T02:56:53Z resttime: g_SG: also your last line calls PLOT-LISTS not PLOTLISTS 2015-10-15T02:56:56Z phf: g_SG: your best bet is to do (macroexpand-1 '(plotlists ...)) and actually look at the result. you'll realize that your macro is broken, since the resultant code is meaningless 2015-10-15T02:57:12Z g_SG: and "deleting unreachable code '~&pause mouse button1;~'" 2015-10-15T02:57:29Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T02:57:34Z |3b|: the /value/ LISTS is a symbol, not a LIST 2015-10-15T02:58:07Z g_SG: phf: I'm pretty sure it's broken hahahah, it's just that I reeeeally don't know how to approach this 2015-10-15T02:58:21Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:58:21Z phf: g_SG: did you do what i said? 2015-10-15T02:58:23Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-15T02:58:35Z |3b|: which is one sign you shouldn't be writing a macro, both of your example usages look like they expect the arguments to be evaluated normally as if it were a function call 2015-10-15T02:59:05Z pjb: loke: Notice that the rules between GPL and Lisp are not fuzzy; they are determined by a judge asserting whether or not some software is derived work of some other. Only a judge can say. 2015-10-15T02:59:16Z |3b|: (or rather a sign you shouldn't be writing that specifically as a macro, possibly you should be writing something else as a macro) 2015-10-15T02:59:24Z g_SG: phf: yes, it's a progn with several calls to eazy-gnuplot:plot in it 2015-10-15T02:59:49Z loke: pjb: Right, and since they haven't been asserted by said judge yet, I think there is reason to argue that there is fuzzyness involved, don't you think? 2015-10-15T03:00:03Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:00:07Z pjb: loke: it's a case by case question. 2015-10-15T03:00:17Z g_SG: |3b|: I see... so let me get this straight 2015-10-15T03:00:27Z phf: g_SG: well, the calls all have (dolist (p ll) ...) in them, but where's ll coming from? 2015-10-15T03:00:32Z loke: pjb: Dpends on juristiction I think. 2015-10-15T03:00:37Z pjb: loke: notably, the jurisprudence demonstrate that technicalities like how you linking or load your software are irrelevant. 2015-10-15T03:00:50Z pjb: s/linking/link/ 2015-10-15T03:01:20Z phf: actually, ama |3b| handle this one, i seem to b talking at a cross pedagogy with him 2015-10-15T03:01:43Z phf: and that code has no reason to be a macro 2015-10-15T03:02:18Z g_SG: phf: hahaha, thanks 2015-10-15T03:02:51Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:02:58Z g_SG: I kind of understand it shouldn't be a macro, but I can't seem to say exactly why 2015-10-15T03:03:24Z mmaul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:03:31Z |3b|: generally, if it doesn't need to be a macro, it shouldn't be one 2015-10-15T03:04:02Z |3b|: and that doesn't seem to have any need to be a macro (and in fact seems like it would be easier if it weren't one) 2015-10-15T03:04:02Z ZabaQ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T03:05:01Z |3b|: when a function call is evaluated, each of its arguments is evaluated first, for example in SCATTER, (some-function lists) would evaluate LISTS as a variable, and pass the result to SOME-FUNCTION 2015-10-15T03:05:09Z cheryllium quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:06:03Z |3b|: when a macro is expanded (which happens during compilation), the arguments are passed to the macro without evaluation, so in SCATTER (some-macro lists) would pass the symbol LISTS to the macro SOME-MACRO 2015-10-15T03:06:14Z |3b|: it can't pass the value of the variable, since during compilation it doesn't have a value yet 2015-10-15T03:06:55Z g_SG: |3b|: ahhh, gotcha now 2015-10-15T03:07:35Z |3b|: so if you want to pass it a value stored in a variable, it should be a normal function. otherwise the macro would have to just expand to code that did exactly what calling the function would have done, but would be harder to write and harder to use (since for example you can't FUNCALL or MAP macros) 2015-10-15T03:07:38Z g_SG: |3b|: indeed, makes no sense to write a macro like that 2015-10-15T03:09:01Z |3b|: similarly with (some-macro (list 1 2 3)), the value passed to SOME-MACRO would be the 4 element list containing the symbol LIST followed by 1 2 3 2015-10-15T03:09:25Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:09:34Z |3b|: also, in LOOP, put DO at the beginning of the DO clause, not at the end of some previous clause 2015-10-15T03:09:43Z |3b|: similarly for COLLECT 2015-10-15T03:10:15Z |3b| would also say put each clause on a separate line 2015-10-15T03:10:30Z g_SG: |3b|: right. idiomatic or performance? 2015-10-15T03:11:01Z |3b|: no effect on performance, but easier to read and maintain 2015-10-15T03:11:20Z g_SG: |3b|: I got that from Practical Common Lisp 2015-10-15T03:11:30Z g_SG: |3b|: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 2015-10-15T03:12:00Z |3b|: which 'that'? 2015-10-15T03:12:39Z g_SG: |3b|: DOing and COLLECTing at the end 2015-10-15T03:14:05Z |3b| only sees LOOP forms with entire thing on one line, which is sort of acceptable 2015-10-15T03:14:54Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:15:12Z |3b|: in that case it isn't that hard to just read the whole thing 2015-10-15T03:15:19Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T03:15:26Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:16:02Z |3b|: but with more complicated loops, putting each clause on separate line makes it easier to just scan down left side and pick out variable definitions, conditionals, etc 2015-10-15T03:17:01Z |3b|: without having to actually read each line closely to figure out if a particular symbol happens to be inside parens or whatever 2015-10-15T03:17:37Z g_SG: |3b|: wait, so you mean (loop collect foo for bar in baz) or (loop for bar in baz \n collect {complicated expression})? 2015-10-15T03:18:32Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D0U/1 2015-10-15T03:18:41Z |3b|: ^ on of your functions reformatted 2015-10-15T03:18:43Z |3b|: *one 2015-10-15T03:19:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:20:07Z g_SG: |3b|: that looks gorgeous hahahah 2015-10-15T03:20:32Z |3b|: much more obvious which of those LOOPs terminate early, or collect results, etc 2015-10-15T03:20:38Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:20:40Z g_SG: |3b|: indeed, that function was kind of hard to understand 2015-10-15T03:21:07Z |3b|: and easier to add clauses to without breaking things 2015-10-15T03:22:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:23:21Z g_SG: |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846#2 2015-10-15T03:23:46Z cheryllium quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-15T03:23:51Z g_SG: |3b|: also replaced variable names with more descriptive ones. is that it? 2015-10-15T03:23:57Z aerique quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:24:26Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T03:24:28Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:24:42Z aerique joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:27:34Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:28:46Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T03:29:11Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:30:05Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:30:27Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:32:43Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T03:32:51Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:33:11Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:33:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:33:27Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:34:02Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-15T03:35:28Z loke: I have an even better suggestion 2015-10-15T03:35:29Z loke: I think 2015-10-15T03:35:56Z g_SG left #lisp 2015-10-15T03:36:02Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:36:51Z g_SG: loke: i'm interested! 2015-10-15T03:36:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:37:09Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:37:17Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-15T03:37:30Z loke: I'm annotating :-) 2015-10-15T03:37:53Z loke: Something like this 2015-10-15T03:38:15Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846#3 2015-10-15T03:39:08Z loke: oops 2015-10-15T03:39:34Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846#4 2015-10-15T03:39:36Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:39:40Z loke: there. Forgot to return the result 2015-10-15T03:40:29Z loke: hmm, still incorrect, but you get the idea 2015-10-15T03:40:39Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-15T03:42:03Z g_SG: loke: hahah yeah, this loop is pretty amazing 2015-10-15T03:42:10Z g_SG: loke: no SETFs :) 2015-10-15T03:42:15Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T03:42:26Z loke: yeah, but I realise you might not be able to avoid it, because my code is wrong :-) 2015-10-15T03:42:45Z loke: Let me see if I can make it pretty 2015-10-15T03:43:46Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-15T03:44:10Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:44:58Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:46:18Z g_SG: i should totally hang out here more often 2015-10-15T03:46:19Z loke: OK, I rewrite it without setf's and this one might work, even though I';m not sure it's pretty 2015-10-15T03:46:32Z loke: I mean "prettier than the setf-version": 2015-10-15T03:46:54Z loke: rettier than the setf-version": 2015-10-15T03:46:58Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846#5 2015-10-15T03:48:03Z loke: I'm not sure I'd actually write it like that just to avoid the setf, but at least it illustrates LOOP 2015-10-15T03:48:36Z loke: If anything, it's probably slower since it conses 2015-10-15T03:49:12Z loke: Hello beach. I was looking a bit more at mcclim and it's not quite as bad as I thought. 2015-10-15T03:49:24Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:49:50Z g_SG: loke: what was wrong with #4 and how does CONSing solve it? 2015-10-15T03:49:51Z loke: Oh wait, am I confisuing you with the clim mainatiner? 2015-10-15T03:50:46Z loke: g_SG: LOOP doesn't guarantee that B is visible in the A assignment here: (loop for a = … b = a …) 2015-10-15T03:51:08Z loke: In some implementations they are, but I'm pretty sure the spec doesn't guarantee that. 2015-10-15T03:51:46Z loke: the "for (a . b) =" form is an ugly workaround 2015-10-15T03:51:53Z loke: Let me check the spec to see what it says 2015-10-15T03:52:42Z g_SG: loke: i didn't know you could destrucure the cons like that. pretty cool 2015-10-15T03:53:20Z g_SG: loke: i keep reading about this ITERATE thing, maybe i should take this opportunity 2015-10-15T03:53:40Z badkins quit 2015-10-15T03:53:49Z loke: g_SG: There is a small buy vocal minotty that advicates iterate 2015-10-15T03:54:12Z loke: It has one advantage to LOOP: it's extendable 2015-10-15T03:55:29Z loke: g_SG: You are in brazil? 2015-10-15T03:55:41Z loke: Time for you to go to sleep 2015-10-15T03:55:42Z loke: :-) 2015-10-15T03:56:15Z loke: time is 1 in Belo Horizonte 2015-10-15T03:56:48Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T03:56:58Z g_SG: hahahah yeah, it's been a while since i last stood this late 2015-10-15T03:57:30Z loke: Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that I have kids and family now, I'd still be going to sleep at 3. 2015-10-15T03:57:43Z phf: loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aba.htm par. 5 2015-10-15T03:57:45Z loke: I probably will go back to that once the kids are older. I don't like sleeping early. 2015-10-15T03:58:14Z g_SG: my thesis is due in a month and i had insisted i would implement it in lisp to learn the language 2015-10-15T03:58:31Z g_SG: i so regret that now 2015-10-15T03:58:38Z loke: g_SG: Phd thesis? 2015-10-15T03:59:12Z g_SG: no, wait hahah. what's the word for the thing you write when you're an undergrad? 2015-10-15T03:59:16Z keen__________13 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-15T03:59:16Z g_SG: loke: TCC 2015-10-15T03:59:32Z loke: g_SG: I have no idea. I never wrote one :-) 2015-10-15T03:59:38Z loke: What's the subject? 2015-10-15T04:00:10Z g_SG: loke: vehicle routing problems 2015-10-15T04:00:28Z loke: phf: Thank you. 2015-10-15T04:00:44Z loke: It seems as though I was wrong, and my version 4 without the destructuring is actually correct 2015-10-15T04:01:03Z g_SG: the last remotely efficient heuristic was published in the 80s 2015-10-15T04:01:26Z phf: i've been relying on that behavior for years, i felt vaguely uncomfortable thinking of all the LOOPs i'd have to rewrite :) 2015-10-15T04:01:28Z g_SG: i supposed it shouldn't be hard to beat that in performance 2015-10-15T04:01:55Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T04:01:56Z g_SG: great stuff! hahaah 2015-10-15T04:02:01Z loke: phf: And I have been coding around that behaviour for years. I can now rewrite/simplify some of them 2015-10-15T04:02:08Z loke goes to grep for LOOP in my code. 2015-10-15T04:02:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:03:04Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T04:03:27Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:04:14Z g_SG: grep loop *lisp | wc -l => 10 2015-10-15T04:04:24Z g_SG: shouldn't be hard to fix :p 2015-10-15T04:06:14Z loke: I think I found a loop of mine that cound be improved: 2015-10-15T04:06:15Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit/blob/master/src/amqp.lisp#L338 2015-10-15T04:08:45Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-15T04:10:05Z g_SG: gentlemen, it's been a pleasure 2015-10-15T04:10:29Z g_SG: as loke wisely said, it is time for sleep 2015-10-15T04:10:35Z g_SG: g'night! 2015-10-15T04:10:43Z g_SG quit (Quit: g'night) 2015-10-15T04:10:59Z jfe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T04:12:55Z loke: I could probably eliminate the setf in this one too: 2015-10-15T04:12:56Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss/blob/master/src/cl-gss.lisp#L161 2015-10-15T04:13:40Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:15:31Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T04:15:39Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T04:15:47Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:15:56Z phf: for flag in flags for result = 0 then (logior ... 2015-10-15T04:16:34Z loke: hmm, you sure of that? Seems like the first result won't be or'ed 2015-10-15T04:16:36Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T04:16:58Z phf: ooh 2015-10-15T04:17:16Z loke: should be (for flag in flags for v = (...) for result = v then (logior result v) 2015-10-15T04:17:58Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:18:02Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T04:18:08Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:19:28Z loke: your solution would work if one changed it to (for flag in (cons nil flags) ...) 2015-10-15T04:20:07Z phf: yeah, but that's too cute 2015-10-15T04:20:18Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-15T04:22:38Z loke: phf: Yes. In the same caregory of doing stuff like (mapcar #'cons '(1 2 3 4) '#1=(foo . #1#)) → ((1 . FOO) (2 . FOO) (3 . FOO) (4 . FOO)) 2015-10-15T04:24:58Z phf: i think i used that trick for code golf a month or so ago.. 2015-10-15T04:25:54Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:26:09Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:26:21Z phf: oh that's where i discovered that (subseq #1=(1 2 . #1#) 0 n) is actually non-portable, since some implementations will do length on the sequence and some won't 2015-10-15T04:26:23Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:26:44Z loke: LENGTH!? 2015-10-15T04:26:56Z loke: That's a ridiculously stupid thing to do 2015-10-15T04:27:57Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:28:10Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:28:21Z Bike: if you don't discriminate by type, you can just have (if (or (> high (length seq)) (< low (length seq))) (error ...) (actually-subseq ...)), i guess 2015-10-15T04:29:04Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:29:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:29:21Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:30:17Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T04:30:24Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:31:08Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:31:35Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:32:33Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:32:59Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:33:28Z phf: dunno how sbcl does it, but at clozure has check-sequence-bounds, that's called first in a lot of sequence related functions, i don't have ccl installed, so can't really check, but that's the one that would walk the infinite list an explode 2015-10-15T04:33:43Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:33:56Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:33:58Z phf: presumably it does some variation of what bike posted 2015-10-15T04:34:45Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T04:35:05Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:36:20Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:36:46Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:37:42Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T04:37:54Z resttime: I'm really late but thought I'd do it anyways, here's a recursive take http://paste.lisp.org/display/156846#6 2015-10-15T04:38:09Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:38:26Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:38:53Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:39:25Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:39:39Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:39:47Z resttime: Actually I should try to benchmark to maybe see how it compares to LOOP 2015-10-15T04:40:08Z loke: resttime: Except of course you'll be digging a stack 100 levels deem. 2015-10-15T04:40:10Z loke: deep 2015-10-15T04:40:20Z loke: So no, not a solution I'd approve of 2015-10-15T04:40:20Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:40:33Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:40:53Z phf: that would tco though, but non-portably 2015-10-15T04:41:32Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:41:52Z resttime: Yeah it relies on TCO, though turns out I don't have the right C library to test it with ah well 2015-10-15T04:41:55Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:42:33Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:42:39Z loke: I have yet to see a TCO loop that couldn't be portably rewritten while at the same time being much easier to read with LOOP 2015-10-15T04:42:46Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T04:44:22Z resttime: ehehehehe I like playing with TCO :) 2015-10-15T04:46:21Z resttime: Hmm actually I think it is faster, you don't need to COPY-LIST 2015-10-15T04:46:50Z resttime: Neat 2015-10-15T04:48:47Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T04:50:49Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:52:04Z resttime: Oh wait that's kind of like the other LOOP solution which doesn't use it 2015-10-15T04:52:24Z resttime: Since it isn't portable like mine 2015-10-15T04:53:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T04:53:52Z resttime: oh wait nvm same thing 2015-10-15T04:54:12Z resttime: Errr, it does contain COPY-LIST I mean 2015-10-15T04:54:29Z loke: The copy-list is needed no matter what 2015-10-15T04:54:49Z loke: unless you rewrite his function so that it doesn't do in-place modifications 2015-10-15T04:55:32Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T04:55:33Z resttime: Hmmmm... 2015-10-15T04:56:11Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T04:56:21Z resttime: I'm curious how to write mine like a LOOP now 2015-10-15T04:59:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:01:18Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-15T05:05:17Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:05:51Z resttime: Okay, I think it's impossible 2015-10-15T05:06:12Z resttime: ITERATE can do it though: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Previous-Values-of-Driver-Variables.html#Previous-Values-of-Driver-Variables 2015-10-15T05:06:31Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-15T05:08:29Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:08:34Z resttime: If anyone knows of a way to get previous values of variable in LOOP without COPY-LIST or can confirm I'd like to know 2015-10-15T05:08:48Z resttime: Err, confirm that it's impossible that is 2015-10-15T05:11:14Z resttime: Actually wait I might be mistaken about ITERATE as well ugh... 2015-10-15T05:11:24Z Bike: why copy it? 2015-10-15T05:12:51Z resttime: I thought it was impossible because the previous value was a list hence why I see COPY-LIST in the LOOP solutions 2015-10-15T05:13:10Z resttime: s/impossible/required 2015-10-15T05:13:21Z resttime: Might be confusing myself right now though 2015-10-15T05:14:41Z Bike: i mean, they just need to be set in parallel 2015-10-15T05:15:43Z Bike: for prev-sets = sets and sets = (classify ...) i mean 2015-10-15T05:17:36Z resttime: Oh, then I'm confused why there's a COPY-LIST in the other LOOP solutions if you could do that 2015-10-15T05:18:14Z Bike: i am too 2015-10-15T05:18:22Z Bike: i could be misunderstanding something, of course 2015-10-15T05:18:41Z Bike: update-means doesn't seem to be destructive 2015-10-15T05:20:19Z resttime: loke: What did you mean by "in-place modifications" that requires COPY-LIST? 2015-10-15T05:20:42Z loke: resttime: I'm assuming that's what the function does. Why else copy it? 2015-10-15T05:23:39Z HammyJammy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:24:07Z resttime: loke: Sorry, I think there's some huge gap in my knowledge or I'm misunderstanding something greatly 2015-10-15T05:25:41Z beach: resttime: For example, if you want to SORT a list, but you want the original list to be unmodified, you must copy the list before sorting, because SORT is destructive, so it does "in-place modifications". 2015-10-15T05:25:50Z Bike: basically, if you don't copy, any modification to sets will also effect prev-sets, since they're the same list 2015-10-15T05:26:46Z Bike: but i don't see any of these functions destructing any of their arguments. 2015-10-15T05:27:15Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:27:33Z Bike: er, well k-means does, but that's what we're writing 2015-10-15T05:29:08Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:29:16Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:29:45Z resttime: Oh so LOOP makes the symbols PREV-SETS and SETS point to the "same point" 2015-10-15T05:29:56Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:30:02Z resttime: Err, that is if without the COPY-LIST 2015-10-15T05:30:10Z Bike: it's nothing specific to loop, that's what binding always does 2015-10-15T05:30:21Z beach: Binding and assignment too. 2015-10-15T05:30:26Z Bike: lisp doesn't copy things implicitly 2015-10-15T05:30:38Z beach: resttime: Nothing is ever copied unless you explicitly ask for it. 2015-10-15T05:30:56Z Bike: well, except fixnums, i guess, sorta 2015-10-15T05:31:07Z beach: Sure. 2015-10-15T05:31:19Z Bike: and characters. but otherwise!! 2015-10-15T05:31:57Z beach: resttime: This is what I call "uniform reference semantics", though I probably didn't invent that term. 2015-10-15T05:33:53Z resttime: Hmmmm, I think my mental model didn't know about it at all since I never encountered a problem 2015-10-15T05:34:35Z resttime: Err, or when I did I would just file an exception for a specific situation 2015-10-15T05:34:44Z resttime: Thanks, my mental model is updated 2015-10-15T05:35:59Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:36:30Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:36:38Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:41:25Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:41:33Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:41:56Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:42:05Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:42:56Z dickle joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:43:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:43:47Z Zhivago: CL doesn't copy mutable objects implicitly, is probably what you mean to say. 2015-10-15T05:44:00Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:44:07Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:45:31Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:46:38Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:49:35Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-15T05:51:45Z resttime: Okay I think what has me confused is that if the preceding is true then why doesn't HI get modified here?: (defparameter hi '()) (let ((a hi)) (push 1 a) hi) 2015-10-15T05:52:01Z Bike: because push doesn't mutate 2015-10-15T05:52:04Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T05:52:10Z Bike: macroexpand it, that's just (setf a (cons 1 a)) 2015-10-15T05:52:48Z Bike: well, it mutates a binding, however you want to say it. doesn't mutate the value 2015-10-15T05:53:38Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T05:53:55Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T05:54:01Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:54:04Z resttime: Hrmmm can you explain what it means to "mutate"? Because I thought the the binding just made the symbol A point to the "same point" as HI 2015-10-15T05:54:46Z Bike: right, it does. 2015-10-15T05:54:51Z Bike: and then push changes what a points to. 2015-10-15T05:55:33Z Bike: that is, changes which value a is bound to, rather than changes the value named by a 2015-10-15T05:55:39Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:55:51Z Bike: bad phrasing. eh 2015-10-15T05:56:19Z resttime: Wouldn't that new "value" then be an implict copy of some sort then? 2015-10-15T05:56:25Z resttime: s/copy/copying 2015-10-15T05:56:52Z Zhivago: Only if the object is immutable. 2015-10-15T05:56:54Z native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:57:02Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:57:06Z Zhivago: Otherwise you can't copy it, since then mutations would not propagate to the original. 2015-10-15T05:57:13Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T05:58:00Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:58:09Z Bike: resttime: you know how conses have a car and cdr, right? the new value here is a new cons, with car of 1 and cdr of what hi names 2015-10-15T05:59:26Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T05:59:39Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T05:59:46Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:01:09Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:01:29Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:02:11Z resttime: Whoa okay, I think my mental model is going through a major upgrade right now 2015-10-15T06:02:12Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:02:31Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:02:41Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:03:48Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:04:08Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:05:19Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:05:37Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:06:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:06:51Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:07:09Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:08:28Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T06:09:05Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:09:09Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:09:15Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:11:11Z resttime: Okay I think the upgrade is complete and I unlocked a new way to see things, thanks everyone 2015-10-15T06:11:11Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:11:41Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:11:59Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:12:46Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:13:22Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:13:45Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:13:54Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:14:06Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:14:31Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:15:51Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:16:11Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:16:21Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T06:16:28Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:17:20Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:17:38Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:18:06Z resttime: I think my trouble has been because the cons were always in the "background" 2015-10-15T06:18:44Z White_Flame: did you learn lisp from any of the books? they tend to focus on how lists are built pretty early on 2015-10-15T06:19:02Z White_Flame: push = (setf place (cons new-val old-list)) 2015-10-15T06:19:02Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:19:26Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:19:28Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T06:19:30Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:19:49Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:19:59Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:20:02Z White_Flame: if you didn't go through any of them, now that you know enough to be dangerous, reading such material with that under your belt can be a lot more productive, if it seemed impenetrable at first 2015-10-15T06:21:02Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:21:24Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:22:06Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:22:28Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T06:23:10Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:26:11Z ghard`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T06:26:17Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:26:19Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:27:20Z pillton: Has anyone looked at what caching strategies CLOS implementations use for computing the list of methods? 2015-10-15T06:28:10Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:28:50Z jewel: optimizing method dispatch has been well studied 2015-10-15T06:29:15Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:30:55Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:31:29Z resttime: White_Flame: Good idea, I need to finally look into books aside from PCL like Let Over Lambda, bit surprised how far that I got this far without much "formal" learning 2015-10-15T06:31:47Z resttime: I think dangerous is a good way to summarize my programming knowledge 2015-10-15T06:32:49Z resttime: Like playing with a huge chemistry set that comes with a lot of recipes 2015-10-15T06:33:51Z resttime: When I want to make something completely without the recipes I might explode my face off 2015-10-15T06:36:39Z resttime: "I'm going to wash this akali water because it's too oily" 2015-10-15T06:36:56Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:36:56Z resttime: s/akali/ akali metal under 2015-10-15T06:37:34Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:37:37Z White_Flame: instead of "freudian slip", I propose "randiian slip" for accidentally referencing "woo woo" 2015-10-15T06:38:15Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T06:39:08Z resttime: s/akli/alkali 2015-10-15T06:39:43Z resttime: ah geez, needs some sleep s/akali/alkali 2015-10-15T06:39:58Z resttime: gnite 2015-10-15T06:40:03Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-15T06:40:03Z White_Flame: heh 2015-10-15T06:41:21Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:42:52Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:43:46Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:45:22Z pillton: jewel: I figured it would have been. That is why I asked. Do you know a good place to start? 2015-10-15T06:47:12Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:49:06Z chrnybo: Common idom for with-open-file (log ...) around time-consuming loop, to keep file of stream log even when interrupted? 2015-10-15T06:49:35Z FreeBird_ is now known as FreeBird 2015-10-15T06:54:01Z chrnybo: CLHS says: "If a new output file is being written, and control leaves abnormally, the file is aborted and the file system is left, so far as possible, as if the file had never been opened." 2015-10-15T06:54:07Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:54:12Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T06:54:22Z Zhivago: Ah, best-effort semantics ... 2015-10-15T06:56:32Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:56:54Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T06:57:12Z chrnybo: Zhivago: Could you elaborate, please? 2015-10-15T06:57:39Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:57:45Z Zhivago: Well, note that it doesn't require any cleanup at all. 2015-10-15T06:58:04Z Zhivago: Which means that you can't rely on any cleanup in portable code. 2015-10-15T06:58:16Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-15T06:58:25Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:58:26Z jackdaniel: you say "as far as possible", implementer says "it's not possible, too much work for me" ;-) 2015-10-15T06:58:29Z Bike: or any lack of cleanup 2015-10-15T06:58:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T06:59:09Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T06:59:16Z Bike: you could write your own macro with unwind-protect that calls close with :abort nil 2015-10-15T06:59:59Z White_Flame: or have your log system always available, not scoped to a particular body 2015-10-15T07:01:19Z ghard``` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T07:01:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:01:32Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:02:21Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:03:23Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-15T07:05:15Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:07:33Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:08:31Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:08:59Z chrnybo: White_Flame: If I were to quickload a log system for ad hoc jobs, which would it be? 2015-10-15T07:09:20Z White_Flame: dunno, we mostly use an in-house one 2015-10-15T07:09:39Z White_Flame: google for the state of lisp 2015, I think that lists recommended loggers 2015-10-15T07:09:57Z chrnybo: White_Flame: Just _one_ in-house one? Hah. 2015-10-15T07:10:25Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:11:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:11:50Z chrnybo: Eudoxia mentioned log4cl and vom. vom is by orthecreedence, will be fun to use, I expect. 2015-10-15T07:12:29Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:12:36Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:13:06Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T07:14:23Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:18:07Z chrnybo: vom does not appear to handle files as such. 2015-10-15T07:18:57Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T07:19:25Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:22:00Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:22:59Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T07:27:21Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:29:36Z dickle is now known as dkcl 2015-10-15T07:32:28Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:34:52Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:34:59Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:36:11Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:38:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T07:39:21Z pjb: dTal: I've improved sedit. You may pull. (I made it an emacs, adding an eval command and a command binding table). 2015-10-15T07:40:19Z pjb: dTal: I also added load and save commands. So for example, you can type (sedit) RET load RET swap.lisp RET eval RET help RET and now you have a command named swap to swap the selection and the previous sexp. 2015-10-15T07:41:05Z pjb: ( the command binding stuff is horribly Q&D, not a model :-( ) 2015-10-15T07:42:33Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-15T07:44:42Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:44:49Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:46:10Z bin7me joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:46:55Z chrnybo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:47:10Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:50:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:50:41Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T07:52:26Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:52:37Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T07:55:37Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-15T07:57:32Z keen_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:01:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:02:20Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T08:08:30Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T08:09:05Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:09:37Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:11:34Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-15T08:13:40Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:14:02Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T08:14:09Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:15:01Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T08:15:01Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T08:15:08Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:15:25Z kdas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T08:19:38Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:19:49Z ghard``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T08:19:55Z ghard``` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:20:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:25:01Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T08:25:40Z nostoi joined #lisp 2015-10-15T08:29:58Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm working on a bluez ffi... and an example is https://github.com/rpav/ZMQ4L 2015-10-15T11:51:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T11:55:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T11:56:50Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-15T11:57:08Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-15T11:57:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:07:11Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:08:02Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:09:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:11:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:15:59Z g_SG left #lisp 2015-10-15T12:16:51Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:17:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:17:49Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T12:18:03Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:19:40Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:20:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:21:11Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:22:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:23:24Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T12:29:31Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:29:44Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:29:59Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:30:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:31:22Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-15T12:32:30Z preacherAKAnd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:36:07Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:37:39Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:38:16Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:39:02Z ASCII_Gangster quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-15T12:41:43Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:44:25Z ziocroc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T12:44:56Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-15T12:45:12Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:46:16Z _native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:46:51Z _native_killer_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T12:47:34Z _native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:47:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:49:15Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:49:33Z knicklux quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T12:49:46Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:50:16Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-15T12:50:35Z dTal: oooh https://www.fbi.h-da.de/fileadmin/personal/b.humm/Publikationen/Gomolka_Humm_-_Structure_Editors__Springer_ENASE_.pdf 2015-10-15T12:50:47Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:52:03Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:55:46Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T12:55:54Z dTal: pjb: Thanks - in class now but I'll check it out 2015-10-15T12:56:31Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T12:58:15Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:00:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:01:18Z pjb: thanks for the link. 2015-10-15T13:01:31Z pjb: loke: Quick & DIRTY. 2015-10-15T13:01:40Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:02:52Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:03:13Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T13:03:17Z dTal: The graphics they used are very similar to what I have in mind 2015-10-15T13:03:37Z dTal: though again, it could be richer still 2015-10-15T13:07:31Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:08:26Z pjb: And as always, it's an undated paper! I don't understand why they don't date their papers… 2015-10-15T13:10:04Z pjb: It cites references of 2007 so it must be posterior to my 2006 cll post. 2015-10-15T13:10:37Z pjb: (section 3.3 Editing) 2015-10-15T13:10:45Z _native_killer_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:13:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:14:59Z pjb: dTal: notice the results of their (small) survey: it doesn't make a lot of difference. 2015-10-15T13:15:48Z pjb: dTal: notice that you can obtain the same look and various variant in emacs. cf. http://lemonodor.com/archives/001207.html 2015-10-15T13:16:30Z pjb: eg. michaelw's emacs hack 2015-10-15T13:16:55Z pjb: Use that with paredit, and you have about what they implemented for their paper ;-) 2015-10-15T13:18:17Z pjb: dTal: if you try to use sedit with the new load and save command, you will realize that what would be urgently needed, is a smart way to navigate and store toplevel forms. 2015-10-15T13:19:27Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:19:57Z pjb: dTal: programmers have to choose in what file to store what toplevel form (and their order when they have side effects). But for most of the definition, the editor could just manage and store them automatically in any kind of backend storage. (could still be file, could be a database, or whatever). The important part here is to design nice navigation commands. Then it can be implemented in emacs with file stores. 2015-10-15T13:21:06Z g_SG quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-15T13:21:47Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:24:01Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-15T13:27:18Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:31:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T13:32:15Z sz0 quit 2015-10-15T13:32:25Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:34:50Z Shozan is now known as SHODAN 2015-10-15T13:36:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:39:13Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:39:28Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:42:19Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:43:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:43:36Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T13:45:21Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:45:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:46:03Z _native_killer_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:46:23Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-15T13:46:54Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-15T13:48:49Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-15T13:49:50Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:49:58Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:50:39Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:54:03Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:54:19Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T13:54:21Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-15T13:55:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:56:04Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:58:12Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-15T13:58:43Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:02:57Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:04:13Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T14:05:24Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-15T14:07:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:09:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:11:13Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:12:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:13:39Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:15:19Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:19:46Z doodlehaus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T14:20:43Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T14:21:46Z superancetre joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:23:21Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:23:51Z smokeink_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T14:30:44Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:31:55Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:34:05Z yang_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T14:35:18Z yang joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:41:09Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:44:28Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:47:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:49:45Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:49:56Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:51:26Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:51:53Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:52:04Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:52:13Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:52:58Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:53:08Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:54:11Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:54:22Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:54:33Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:55:04Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:55:26Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:55:43Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-15T14:55:52Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:56:40Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T14:57:01Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T14:57:50Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T14:59:05Z newdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T15:01:10Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T15:02:32Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:04:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:04:46Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:05:14Z faalentijn: I just spend more then a hour trying to debug a simple exercise because I forgot it would only write to the REPL 2015-10-15T15:05:18Z faalentijn: I'm an idiot. 2015-10-15T15:06:14Z pjb: What does that mean "it would only write to the REPL"? 2015-10-15T15:06:53Z jackdaniel: I believe it's about not saving the typed function definitions to the file 2015-10-15T15:07:28Z jackdaniel: but it's a guess 2015-10-15T15:08:06Z pjb: I use this http://paste.lisp.org/display/150067 in by lisp rc files. 2015-10-15T15:09:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T15:10:02Z jackdaniel: looks handy :) can I borrow it? 2015-10-15T15:10:09Z pjb: Sure. 2015-10-15T15:10:14Z jackdaniel: thanks 2015-10-15T15:10:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T15:11:13Z pjb: notice the docstring is wrong, it's not "HOME:DRIBBLE;" but "DRIBBLE;" in the user-homedir. 2015-10-15T15:11:27Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:11:57Z jackdaniel: deven dribbles 2015-10-15T15:13:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:14:57Z someone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T15:16:54Z someon joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:18:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T15:21:47Z someon is now known as someone 2015-10-15T15:22:19Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T15:22:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:22:32Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-15T15:22:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:25:09Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T15:27:13Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T15:27:41Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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SBCL is another 2015-10-15T16:46:34Z dTal: okay I am having a weird week with computers 2015-10-15T16:46:46Z faalentijn: how so? 2015-10-15T16:47:06Z dTal: I did that search in class and got next to no results 2015-10-15T16:47:40Z dTal: and I have just identified why, kinda: I get tons of results with apt-cache search lisp, and next to nothing with aptitude search lisp 2015-10-15T16:48:09Z faalentijn: Why aren't using apt plain? 2015-10-15T16:48:12Z pilne joined #lisp 2015-10-15T16:48:20Z faalentijn: It's the new way of using a package manager in Debian 2015-10-15T16:48:29Z dTal: evidently aptitude search only looks in package titles, whereas apt-cache looks in descriptions 2015-10-15T16:48:42Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T16:48:42Z dTal: they changed it again? 2015-10-15T16:48:48Z faalentijn: They always change it 2015-10-15T16:48:51Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T16:48:59Z faalentijn: Although this, again, is a pretty nice improvement 2015-10-15T16:49:12Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T16:49:25Z dTal: trouble is I bet it won't stop people using apt-get 2015-10-15T16:50:10Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T16:50:11Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T16:50:17Z dTal: well, thanks for the tipoff - guess I'd better "man apt" 2015-10-15T16:50:19Z dTal: again 2015-10-15T16:50:28Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T16:50:34Z faalentijn: What do you mean? Don't you think the difference between apt, apt-get, apitude, synaptic, dpkg and gdebi obvious? 2015-10-15T16:50:55Z pilne left #lisp 2015-10-15T16:51:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-15T16:51:13Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T16:51:27Z faalentijn: dTal: It's honestly a lot easier then the other ways. It's a combination of the different apt-* tools with some new features being added. 2015-10-15T16:51:42Z faalentijn: Apt-get is just for backward compatability with old scripts 2015-10-15T16:51:49Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T16:52:02Z dTal: you used to get broken behaviour if you mixed apt-get and aptitude 2015-10-15T16:52:04Z MoALTz__ is now known as MoALTz 2015-10-15T16:55:24Z superancetre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T16:55:50Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T16:57:55Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-15T16:58:31Z faalentijn: Are you new to Lisp as well? 2015-10-15T16:58:52Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-15T16:59:06Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T17:00:13Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-15T17:01:00Z psy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:01:13Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:03:19Z dTal: as well? I'm not new to Debian 2015-10-15T17:03:50Z dTal: I first looked at Lisp in high school, and thought it looked cool 2015-10-15T17:03:51Z faalentijn: I meant as in that I'm also new to lisp. 2015-10-15T17:04:07Z dTal: but it's only recently I tried to make anything with it seriously 2015-10-15T17:04:14Z dTal: ah I see 2015-10-15T17:04:21Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-15T17:04:31Z dTal: then yes, meaningfully 2015-10-15T17:04:36Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:05:13Z faalentijn: I tried to read SICP. Cried and then went on to read COMMON LISP: An Introduction to Symbolic Programming 2015-10-15T17:05:18Z faalentijn: *computing 2015-10-15T17:05:31Z oleo: touretzky 2015-10-15T17:05:34Z oleo: eheh 2015-10-15T17:05:37Z oleo: my first one too 2015-10-15T17:05:38Z raphaelssss joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:06:19Z faalentijn: SICP is for masochists 2015-10-15T17:06:30Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:06:54Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:07:03Z faalentijn: I was also thinking about reading Planet Lisp or An Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp 2015-10-15T17:07:10Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-15T17:09:11Z raphaelsss quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:09:55Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:10:04Z ggole quit 2015-10-15T17:10:10Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:10:21Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:11:04Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:11:10Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:11:21Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:12:20Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:12:31Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:12:32Z dwchandler: SICP is SICP. Some people work right through it. I had to do it in pieces. Others don't like it at all. Thankfully there are several good resources in different styles. :) 2015-10-15T17:13:07Z zwdr: HTDP is a nice introduction in the style of SICP 2015-10-15T17:13:14Z zwdr: much easier to work through 2015-10-15T17:13:22Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:13:33Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:13:50Z doodlehaus joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:14:32Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:14:51Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:15:15Z faalentijn: I had issues reading the mathematical formulas and some of the super technical English. I simply didn't get that in school. 2015-10-15T17:15:28Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:15:32Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:15:39Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-15T17:15:47Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:16:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:16:37Z faalentijn: Anyways it was just a joke 2015-10-15T17:16:38Z dwchandler: Yeah, it has assumptions about the intented audience 2015-10-15T17:17:16Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:17:20Z dwchandler: Anyway, good that you moved on and read other things 2015-10-15T17:19:04Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:19:48Z faalentijn: dwchandler: I'm glad it exist as well. It did make me feel like an idiot. 2015-10-15T17:20:39Z doodlehaus quit 2015-10-15T17:23:59Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:25:49Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:25:56Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:27:22Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T17:29:00Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:31:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:31:56Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-15T17:32:19Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:33:29Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T17:33:48Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I only know about the zmq wrapper... is there anything else? 2015-10-15T19:43:34Z oGMo: cl-sdl2 and i forget off the top of my head 2015-10-15T19:44:22Z oGMo: attila_lendvai: can you lisppaste or similar the errors/etc? 2015-10-15T19:45:13Z oGMo: oh, my fork of CL-LLVM is autowrap, though i'm not sure if it's updated for current llvm 2015-10-15T19:45:24Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-15T19:46:40Z oGMo: attila_lendvai: we can take this to #lispgames if you'd like since that's a lot of what it's been used for heh 2015-10-15T19:47:30Z attila_lendvai: oGMo: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D24 2015-10-15T19:47:57Z attila_lendvai moves to #lispgames with this 2015-10-15T19:48:08Z oGMo: my guess is wrong package or something heh 2015-10-15T19:48:10Z oGMo: k 2015-10-15T19:50:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T19:51:26Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-15T19:51:45Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T19:53:05Z raphaelssss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T19:57:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T19:59:30Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-15T19:59:45Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:03:12Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:03:44Z TMA joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:05:09Z maveneagle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T20:06:52Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:07:08Z luis joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:07:44Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:08:03Z Guest23682 joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:08:18Z drdo joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:10:18Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:13:23Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:14:16Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:18:42Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:20:01Z ceryo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-15T20:20:10Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T20:20:17Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:22:14Z commanderkeen joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:27:13Z grindhold quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T20:28:21Z grindhold joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:31:19Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:32:08Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-15T20:32:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-15T20:35:02Z commanderkeen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:35:35Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:35:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:35:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:36:33Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T20:36:41Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T20:40:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-15T20:40:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:43:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T20:50:01Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-15T20:56:53Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-15T20:58:27Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-15T20:59:01Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T20:59:09Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:03:10Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:04:00Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-15T21:07:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T21:12:39Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:14:02Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T21:16:20Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T21:16:26Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:17:14Z jdz_ is now known as jdz 2015-10-15T21:17:30Z phoe_krk: I've noticed that, when I C-c C-c break out of a running slime-repl process, all the usockets that I create don't close. Is there any way to do that from outside, like, once I have no reference to them? 2015-10-15T21:18:08Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-15T21:19:10Z |3b|: you can use finalizers, but that isn't very reliable... better to just use unwind-protect to close them properly regardless of how you exit the code 2015-10-15T21:19:33Z phoe_krk: unwind-protect closes them even when I abort the thread? 2015-10-15T21:20:02Z |3b|: ("not reliable" in the sense that they only do anything when the GC decides to collect the unused reference, which might be never if you don't use much ram) 2015-10-15T21:20:42Z |3b|: unwind-protect lets you run code when you exit a block, regardless of how you exit it. freeing/closing external resources is a common use 2015-10-15T21:21:03Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:21:03Z |3b|: for example with-open-file probably expands to an unwind-protect 2015-10-15T21:24:56Z phoe_krk: I'll try that. 2015-10-15T21:25:14Z phoe_krk: it will be an easy task to check if it closes the socket, because it will log me out from the service I'm connecting to. 2015-10-15T21:28:11Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-15T21:30:09Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:32:03Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:32:15Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-15T21:32:34Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T21:34:18Z bogwonch joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:36:11Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-15T21:37:33Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-15T21:40:35Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-15T21:41:43Z novemberist joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:42:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-15T21:43:48Z DeadTrickster: btw sometimes I think slime can bypass unwin-protect cleanup form in there is an error in protected form and debagger abort restart invoked 2015-10-15T21:44:31Z bin7me quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-15T21:44:35Z Zhivago: Let me guess, a markov chain generator has been inflicted upon us. 2015-10-15T21:46:42Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 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I'd go with equal/foo 2015-10-15T23:01:50Z remi`bd: and compound-foo-= 2015-10-15T23:01:50Z emaczen: attila_lendvai: Ahhh, I have seen the syntax "/" but not as often 2015-10-15T23:02:37Z emaczen: thanks for the input gus 2015-10-15T23:02:53Z attila_lendvai: I use it a lot as a kinda lightweight package system that relieves some of the cognitive load when reading code 2015-10-15T23:03:26Z attila_lendvai: I use / as a kind of contextual separator 2015-10-15T23:03:50Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-15T23:05:05Z resttime: I think IS-MY-TYPE-P is used sometimes 2015-10-15T23:05:25Z resttime: oh damn, misread nvm 2015-10-15T23:06:26Z emaczen left #lisp 2015-10-15T23:07:40Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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You could do that in a single day? 2015-10-16T02:50:16Z Bike: i think i took a weekend or two, but sleeping was involved 2015-10-16T02:50:58Z Xach: resttime: Did you see the complete comp.lang.lisp archive? 2015-10-16T02:50:59Z Guest35645 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T02:51:25Z resttime: pjb: I like reading, but what probably helped was me not knowing some stuff eve nthough I tried to understand 2015-10-16T02:51:29Z Xach: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/ is it 2015-10-16T02:52:09Z resttime: Xach: yeah I found other blog posts, read those then found that website and currently on Feb 1995 2015-10-16T02:53:13Z Xach: I like what Erik wrote. I am bummed by how many he inspired to be sharp and harsh with little of the underlying subtlety or intelligence or strategy, myself included. 2015-10-16T02:53:27Z Xach: all of the madness with none of the method 2015-10-16T02:53:34Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-16T02:54:43Z resttime: I strongly admire his rigour and pursuit of knowledge 2015-10-16T02:55:14Z resttime: Like mine is completely dwarved 2015-10-16T02:56:00Z resttime: I get curious a lot but do not do nearly enough learning 2015-10-16T02:56:02Z nyef: Good evening, all. 2015-10-16T02:56:21Z resttime: good evening 2015-10-16T02:56:22Z Xach: nyef: how was the dinner? 2015-10-16T02:57:08Z nyef: Nice, modulo the table arrangement. A linear table for 16 people means that there will be some people that you just can't hear. 2015-10-16T02:57:40Z Xach: I wish we could find a place that was more like a conference reception. Standing, mingling, nibbling, quaffing. 2015-10-16T02:58:11Z Xach: I am moving to a farm with a large barn. Maybe we can convene a meeting there. 2015-10-16T02:58:40Z nyef: How far out of the way is it? 2015-10-16T02:59:02Z Xach: very, very far. 2015-10-16T02:59:24Z nyef: I imagine that I'd have a couple of days of travel time to get there, at least... and that's if it's in the Portland area. 2015-10-16T02:59:48Z Xach: it is 200 miles from portland 2015-10-16T03:01:19Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:01:20Z resttime: Well suffice to say, I feel like I have a stronger sense of a kind of "duty" to knowledge 2015-10-16T03:01:41Z resttime: Like a "duty" to not only learn but develop it to pass on 2015-10-16T03:01:43Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:02:24Z Xach: resttime: that is good 2015-10-16T03:02:29Z resttime: I probably would've been flamed by him back on Usenet 2015-10-16T03:02:58Z akkad: Erik was the proto lisper 2015-10-16T03:03:10Z akkad: we all try to be like him as much as possible 2015-10-16T03:03:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2015-10-16T03:03:22Z Xach: resttime: I think the emphasis on contributing true things with confidence is pretty useful 2015-10-16T03:03:43Z Xach: akkad: I don't think so. 2015-10-16T03:04:22Z akkad hands Xach a mirror 2015-10-16T03:04:31Z akkad: the haircut... 2015-10-16T03:05:36Z resttime: Just yesterday I was clueless about a fundamental thing about how CONS worked 2015-10-16T03:05:54Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:06:22Z Ober: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/ErikNaggum_LUGM99_DKL.jpg/220px-ErikNaggum_LUGM99_DKL.jpg could be Xach 2015-10-16T03:06:24Z resttime: I think it's cheap for me to update my mental model so I think that makes me lazy 2015-10-16T03:06:50Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:07:08Z resttime: "As long as things are consistent with my mental model i don't need to learn more" 2015-10-16T03:07:22Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:07:32Z nyef: Well, as long as it's 200 miles from Portland _in my direction_, that might be doable for me... (-: 2015-10-16T03:07:59Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-16T03:08:15Z resttime: And again, any inconsistencies I just update quickly which technically kind of works but is not good enough 2015-10-16T03:08:25Z resttime: Not rigorous enough 2015-10-16T03:08:50Z Xach: hardly. http://imgur.com/u3JJ3G2 is the winter form. 2015-10-16T03:09:12Z Xach: resttime: excellent 2015-10-16T03:09:26Z Xach: nyef: no, it's the "wrong" way. very close to new brunswick. 2015-10-16T03:11:07Z nyef: Hrm... I'm getting the impression that it'd take me something like a week to get there, then. 2015-10-16T03:11:15Z nyef: If not more. 2015-10-16T03:12:22Z Xach: I'd like to try another lisp dinner next month before I move, but it's uncertain. And I'm sure the turnout would be smaller. 2015-10-16T03:12:31Z resttime: What I need to do now is challenge myself by taking advantage of how quick I can change the mental model by constantly feeding it with books 2015-10-16T03:12:57Z resttime: And then I'll probably find I'm not so "quick" anymore 2015-10-16T03:20:15Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T03:20:23Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:22:54Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:25:10Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-16T03:25:10Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-16T03:25:21Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T03:25:57Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-16T03:27:33Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-16T03:29:03Z zacts quit 2015-10-16T03:31:09Z twistedbot^^^ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:32:02Z twistedbot^^ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:32:48Z loke: I need to find some lispers willing to visit a lisp dinner in SG 2015-10-16T03:34:54Z twistedbot^^^ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:36:09Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:36:33Z twistedbot^^ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:36:52Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T03:36:58Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:37:38Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:40:26Z low-prof1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:40:56Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:40:59Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:41:41Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:42:23Z pillton: SG? 2015-10-16T03:42:42Z earl-ducaine quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-16T03:42:48Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:43:04Z resttime: Hmmm, I woefully under use the capabilities of Common Lisp 2015-10-16T03:43:18Z pllx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T03:43:25Z resttime: If it's so easy to program with it then I should be challenging myself on what I can program 2015-10-16T03:43:58Z resttime: Just like my mental model 2015-10-16T03:44:46Z resttime: Ugh, I feel so ashamed 2015-10-16T03:44:55Z resttime: Err anyways i think this is getting off topic so I'll stop here 2015-10-16T03:46:00Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:46:46Z vedwin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:47:12Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-16T03:47:29Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:47:46Z vedwin joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:48:12Z jlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T03:48:54Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:50:56Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:51:03Z nicdev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T03:51:08Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:51:35Z sepi` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:51:57Z Takumo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:51:57Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:52:17Z loke: resttime: There is no requirement to use all features. 2015-10-16T03:52:18Z sepi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T03:52:38Z loke: In fact, most people will be happy if you avoid using, say, custom method combinations. 2015-10-16T03:52:47Z loke: Or symbol plists 2015-10-16T03:53:59Z Guest58751 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T03:54:00Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:54:32Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:54:32Z Takumo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-16T03:54:32Z Takumo joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:55:03Z Guest58751 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:55:23Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-16T03:55:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-16T03:56:12Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T03:57:34Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-16T03:59:43Z twistedbot^^^ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T03:59:46Z beach: pillton: [reading the logs] what aspect of computing the methods are you interested in? The dispatch? 2015-10-16T04:00:05Z resttime: loke: I'm meaning more like to actually go through with writing things in Common Lisp instead of letting the thought pass 2015-10-16T04:00:13Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:00:50Z beach: pillton: This is the paper describing how PCL (and also SBCL) does it: http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/publications/papers/Kiczales-Andreas-PCL/for-web.pdf 2015-10-16T04:00:50Z resttime: loke: Like instead of thinking a program is complex and stopping, to keep going 2015-10-16T04:01:19Z pjb: resttime: watch Alan Kay. 2015-10-16T04:01:39Z pjb: resttime: basically, you need to introduce abstractions, possibly metalinguistic abstractions, to reduce the complexity of the program. 2015-10-16T04:01:48Z pjb: also read sicp. 2015-10-16T04:01:56Z pjb: (and watch the sicp lectures). 2015-10-16T04:02:14Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:02:19Z resttime: Like it's easy for me to write things in Common Lisp, but then I realize I have nothing "worth" writing 2015-10-16T04:02:31Z pjb: Find a customer. 2015-10-16T04:02:37Z resttime: "easy" as in expressing ideas kind of 2015-10-16T04:02:59Z resttime: Err well not neccesarily me, but the feature of the language itself 2015-10-16T04:03:06Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:03:32Z resttime: Like learning how to speak a language, but I have nothing worth saying 2015-10-16T04:05:34Z resttime: pjb: Yeah SICP is long overdue on my list of things today and I'll go check out Alan Kay 2015-10-16T04:05:43Z resttime: s/today/todo 2015-10-16T04:06:12Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T04:06:18Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:06:35Z svqqyrejbnebbs joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:06:39Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T04:09:08Z svqqyrejbnebbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T04:09:48Z resttime: I guess another analogy is like I have a paper, pencil, vague idea of what I want to draw, but not enough knowledge of the fundamentals of art to draw something good 2015-10-16T04:10:05Z resttime: (anatomy, form, value, line, design, composition, etc.) 2015-10-16T04:11:43Z resttime: Or more like I do have the knowledge, but no idea how to use it 2015-10-16T04:12:49Z resttime: Well in the end it really just means I need to study study study 2015-10-16T04:13:13Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:14:29Z pillton: beach: Yeah the dispatch. I found a paper by Eric Dujardin called "Efficient Dispatch of Multimethods in Constant Time Using Dispatch Trees". It does what I had in my mind. I was just seeing if there was something better. 2015-10-16T04:14:42Z pillton: beach: Thanks for the link. I will check it out. 2015-10-16T04:15:19Z beach: Sorry to give you more to read. Also this one: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf 2015-10-16T04:16:37Z pillton: beach: This is for work. So I'm not bound by spare time. :) 2015-10-16T04:16:47Z beach: Great! 2015-10-16T04:17:05Z pillton: I was looking at the pattern matching literature too. 2015-10-16T04:17:21Z beach: Basically, existing techniques use tables or data structures in memory. This is not such a good idea on modern processors. Hence my paper. 2015-10-16T04:17:45Z pillton: Great. I will check it out. 2015-10-16T04:19:03Z pillton: The library I've written can dispatch on optional, rest and keyword arguments and on types. 2015-10-16T04:19:36Z pillton: It also has support for compiler macros. 2015-10-16T04:19:38Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T04:20:31Z beach: It is tricky to make that fast. Also for types, it is tricky to define the semantics since types can overlap. 2015-10-16T04:21:12Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:21:26Z pillton: Yep. There are undefined cases. 2015-10-16T04:22:17Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:23:57Z pillton: People have voiced that concern before. The amount of time it saves on maintaining compiler macros outweighs this issue. 2015-10-16T04:24:09Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:24:28Z beach: Can you elaborate on that, please? 2015-10-16T04:25:14Z pillton: The purpose of the library was to be similar to CLOS but do better when types were known at compile time. 2015-10-16T04:25:34Z pillton: It also handles issues like what class does (array double-float (*)) have? 2015-10-16T04:26:23Z pillton: The issues about overlapped types can be solved by either 1) signalling an error or 2) randomly picking a "method." The method is defined for the type so it should be valid. 2015-10-16T04:26:30Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T04:26:36Z Bike: randomly... 2015-10-16T04:27:04Z Bike: meaning undefinedly, i guess 2015-10-16T04:27:54Z pillton: The method is defined for the arguments. My view is that if you don't want to be called, then don't define it. 2015-10-16T04:28:23Z pillton: Sorry. want it*. 2015-10-16T04:28:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T04:31:27Z wooden_: what's the common lisp idiom for printing an enumerated list? e.g. given '(foo bar baz) how can i print "1. foo, 2. bar, 3. baz". is there a FORMAT recipe for this? 2015-10-16T04:32:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:33:20Z pillton: wooden_: (format nil "~{~d. ~A~^, ~}" '(1 a 2 b 3 c)) 2015-10-16T04:33:20Z wooden_: in python it's just... for i, x in enumerate(["foo", "bar", "baz"]): print i+1, x 2015-10-16T04:34:29Z wooden_: pillton: ok, given the list '(foo bar baz) is there an easy way to generate '(1 foo 2 bar 3 baz)? 2015-10-16T04:34:30Z pillton: beach: Did that help? 2015-10-16T04:35:03Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:35:07Z beach: pillton: Yes. Thanks! 2015-10-16T04:35:36Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:36:08Z Bike: (loop for i from 1 for x in list collect i collect x) 2015-10-16T04:36:36Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:36:38Z WizJin quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-16T04:36:51Z pillton: wooden_: There is probably a way to do it with FORMAT, but, the problem with FORMAT foo is remembering FORMAT foo. 2015-10-16T04:37:02Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:38:17Z pillton: wooden_: Some people are good at remembering that stuff as well as deciphering it. I'm not and I would much rather read simpler code. 2015-10-16T04:38:41Z wooden_: ok. thanks, folks. 2015-10-16T04:39:08Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:39:28Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:41:04Z cmoneylu_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:41:32Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:41:52Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:42:18Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:42:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:42:39Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:43:00Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:44:22Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T04:44:28Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:44:28Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T04:44:49Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T04:46:34Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T04:50:12Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-16T04:55:12Z cmoneylu_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T04:58:25Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-16T05:03:51Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-16T05:05:27Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:09:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:11:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:11:20Z UtkarshRay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:11:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: specbot: clhs format 2015-10-16T05:11:47Z beach: clhs format 2015-10-16T05:11:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 2015-10-16T05:12:39Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:12:47Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:13:02Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:13:54Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:15:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: pillton: was this the article you referred me to the other day: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2015/01/13/lock-free-mutual-exclusion/ 2015-10-16T05:15:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: about communication between threads? 2015-10-16T05:17:14Z pjb: resttime: Alan Kay "Programming and Scaling" 2011 http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmcmdsoAXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOmItPa4iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPavndhYxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xLi0iJg1g https://vimeo.com/82301919 2015-10-16T05:17:14Z pjb: 2015-10-16T05:19:25Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:19:32Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm still trying to figure out a way to get this to work that doesn't rely on undefined behavior: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156657 2015-10-16T05:20:11Z resttime: pjb: Thanks I'll watch them, I had only found and watched his TED talk video 2015-10-16T05:20:57Z pjb: Well, there's https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKuVC3Lrr0b8k5UY402FfM2LuZ8Ecti96 if you want more. 2015-10-16T05:21:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-16T05:24:44Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:24:54Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:25:09Z resttime: pjb: Has he written any books that compiles his ideas? Might be a better way for me to absorb 2015-10-16T05:25:25Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:26:41Z resttime: Ah well, doesn't seem like it. Will be watching through more of his videos 2015-10-16T05:26:43Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:26:51Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:26:52Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:27:09Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:29:18Z ASCII_Gangster joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:30:03Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:34:18Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-16T05:35:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:37:10Z low-prof1 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:37:20Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-16T05:40:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:40:37Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:40:55Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:41:36Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:41:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:41:53Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:42:57Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T05:43:03Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:43:23Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:44:24Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:44:40Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:46:06Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:46:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:46:22Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:47:41Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-16T05:48:39Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:48:56Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T05:49:20Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:49:28Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:50:05Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:50:06Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:50:24Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-16T05:51:38Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:53:01Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:54:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T05:55:28Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:56:42Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:56:48Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:57:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T05:57:51Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T05:58:51Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T05:58:52Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:00:38Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:02:09Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: No. That isn't it. I've looked back through 2011 and 2012 which is when I used the trick. I can't find it. 2015-10-16T06:04:10Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: If I recall correctly the trick was to exploit the fact that word size memory writes are atomic. 2015-10-16T06:05:13Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-16T06:05:59Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: If you change (setf stop t) to (setf (aref stop 0) 1) and (when stop ..) to (when (zerop (aref stop 0)) ..) you might get the same behaviour provided stop is an (array (unsigned-byte X) (1)). 2015-10-16T06:06:59Z pillton: The thread which reads the value in the array will eventually get the right value. 2015-10-16T06:07:39Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:07:52Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: It worked in the GUI app I was writing at the time. 2015-10-16T06:10:28Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T06:10:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: pillton: thanks, that sounds like it should work. 2015-10-16T06:11:36Z moei joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:14:13Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:14:41Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:16:22Z badkins_ quit 2015-10-16T06:18:13Z SgtGarci` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:18:15Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:24:13Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T06:24:20Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:24:53Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:25:10Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:25:12Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:26:16Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:26:18Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:26:33Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:27:02Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T06:27:08Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:28:31Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:28:48Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:29:35Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:29:52Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:30:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:30:57Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:31:08Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:31:27Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:31:51Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:32:06Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:32:08Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T06:32:18Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:32:52Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:36:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:38:12Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:38:30Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:40:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:41:21Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:47:54Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:48:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:52:36Z pjb: minion: memo for resttime: the works of Alan Kay and his team are published on http://vpri.org/ 2015-10-16T06:52:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell resttime when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-16T06:53:10Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:56:23Z nostoi joined #lisp 2015-10-16T06:56:50Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T06:59:30Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T06:59:38Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:01:46Z zwdr_ is now known as zwdr 2015-10-16T07:03:05Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:03:26Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:04:47Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:05:37Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:08:35Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:10:25Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-16T07:11:39Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:13:42Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:14:55Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:15:03Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:15:11Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:16:05Z loke_` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:16:12Z loke_` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:16:55Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:18:22Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:20:16Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:27:17Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:28:28Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:31:51Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:32:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:34:48Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:34:53Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:35:31Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:35:38Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:35:46Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:37:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:38:20Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:39:05Z ASCII_Gangster quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-16T07:39:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:39:50Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:39:58Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:42:14Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T07:42:41Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:44:27Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-16T07:46:48Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:46:54Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:50:44Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T07:53:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:56:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-16T07:59:11Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-16T08:00:24Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:00:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:03:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:07:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:09:16Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:09:43Z Vityok joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:11:49Z idurand joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:12:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:14:22Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T08:14:29Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:15:46Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:18:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:18:33Z idurand: Hi, using the 'time' macro, I get the information "160 lambdas converted". Any ideas about what this means? 2015-10-16T08:20:01Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-16T08:20:58Z jackdaniel: idurand: it is your implementation specific. Did you check in it's documentation? 2015-10-16T08:21:26Z scymtym: idurand: if you are using SBCL, it means that the compiler was called as part of the evaluation of the form passed to TIME. repeating the evaluation will usually get rid of it (and produce more useful timing information) 2015-10-16T08:21:48Z idurand: I had looked just at the Hyperspec; but I will look at the SBCL manual. Thanks 2015-10-16T08:22:11Z jackdaniel: idurand: information from scymtym is probably better, he's the SBCL dev :) 2015-10-16T08:22:52Z idurand: it is true that it does not happen if I repeat the evaluation! 2015-10-16T08:22:59Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:24:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:28:16Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:31:32Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:31:46Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:33:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:33:14Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:37:14Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:38:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:40:42Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T08:42:38Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:43:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:43:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:49:03Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:49:16Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T08:49:22Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:50:38Z __uu__ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:51:42Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:52:44Z kalzz quit (Quit: exit) 2015-10-16T08:53:27Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:53:43Z MinnowTaur quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-16T08:55:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T08:56:46Z mprelude_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:57:26Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:57:54Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:59:08Z ghard```` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T08:59:14Z ghard```` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:59:21Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-16T08:59:58Z mprelude quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T09:00:24Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:00:27Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T09:01:14Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:02:05Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-16T09:02:27Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:03:11Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:04:10Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T09:06:20Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:06:50Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T09:12:25Z mprelude_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-16T09:15:35Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-16T09:16:48Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T09:17:34Z ZabaQ: what do I install slime with -- emacs package manager, el-get or quicklisp? 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2015-10-16T13:46:45Z pjb: clhs shiftf 2015-10-16T13:46:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm 2015-10-16T13:47:10Z Xach: (setf a b b c) can also be written (shiftf a b c) 2015-10-16T13:47:22Z pjb: if you don't mind the result. 2015-10-16T13:47:32Z pjb: shiftf will return the old a, setf c. 2015-10-16T13:47:41Z papachan: wow 2015-10-16T13:48:10Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:48:28Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T13:49:37Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:49:59Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T13:51:13Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:52:08Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:52:10Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:52:27Z brosys quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-16T13:53:20Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:53:41Z brosys joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:54:34Z White_Flame: papachan: (subseq (sort list-of-reals) 0 2) 2015-10-16T13:54:57Z White_Flame: papachan: (subseq (sort list-of-reals #'<) 0 2), sorry 2015-10-16T13:57:38Z brosys quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-16T13:57:55Z jackdaniel: or O(n) – (let* ((min1 (min seq)) (min2 (min (remove min1 seq :count 1)))) (list min1 min2)) 2015-10-16T13:58:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-16T13:58:35Z White_Flame: pjb 2015-10-16T13:58:40Z White_Flame: 's is already O(n), too 2015-10-16T13:59:05Z jackdaniel: yeah, didn't check it, sorry 2015-10-16T14:00:14Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:01:23Z papachan: White_Flame: nice 2015-10-16T14:02:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:02:08Z White_Flame mentioned it way back as well 2015-10-16T14:02:39Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:03:15Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:07:43Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:08:47Z ARM7 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:10:15Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:10:26Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:10:57Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:11:02Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:11:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:11:18Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:15:26Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:16:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:16:31Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:17:38Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T14:17:39Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:17:40Z pizzatastesgood joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:17:51Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:19:06Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:20:23Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:22:31Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T14:22:37Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:23:09Z norfumpit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T14:24:17Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T14:26:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:27:09Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:27:57Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:28:23Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:31:57Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T14:32:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:32:49Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:34:00Z p8m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:34:06Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:34:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T14:34:40Z p8m joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:34:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-16T14:35:44Z faalentijn: Actually this channel is just for Franz Lisp 2015-10-16T14:36:02Z jackdaniel: hrm? 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I want to make a two-way stream in my lisp program. Is there a way to redirect the stream's output to another buffer of emacs and utilize yet another buffer to send data into the input stream? 2015-10-16T17:53:33Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T17:53:34Z phoe_krk_: Is there any standarized way of doing that at all? 2015-10-16T17:53:39Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T17:54:48Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T17:55:14Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-16T17:55:23Z eMBee joined #lisp 2015-10-16T17:55:25Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-16T17:55:48Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T17:56:48Z algae quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T17:57:05Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T17:57:35Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T17:57:53Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T17:57:54Z bogwonch quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've got weird problem with STMX's tchannel: when I PUT values in it, they aren't actually put anywhere and when I try creating tport to try pulling values from it, I get "The value #<(NIL)> is not of type (OR CONS TVAR)" which is, technically, correct since its TCONS. Am I the only one having this? 2015-10-16T18:32:05Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:32:15Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:33:27Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:33:33Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-10-16T18:33:33Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:35:46Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T18:35:52Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:36:44Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:36:54Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T18:38:28Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:40:35Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T18:40:47Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:45:02Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T18:45:09Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:45:59Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:47:17Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:49:57Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T18:50:04Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:52:07Z phoe_krk_: qt and qt-libs installed without errors, but trying to eval (qt:make-qapplication) results in a "module not found" error, despite the DLL being in its righteous spot pointed exactly by the path. What might be the cause? 2015-10-16T18:54:39Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T18:54:53Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:55:16Z MasterPiece quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T18:56:43Z pjb: phoe_krk_: M-x slime RET 2015-10-16T18:57:00Z pjb: phoe_krk_: M-x slime RET y RET and again. 2015-10-16T18:57:44Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T18:58:21Z pjb: phoe_krk_: also, have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414 2015-10-16T18:58:31Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T18:58:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T18:59:10Z phoe_krk_: pjb: thanks! 2015-10-16T18:59:17Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T18:59:48Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:02:39Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:03:49Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:03:55Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:04:10Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:08:35Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:08:51Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:08:56Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:09:24Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-16T19:10:58Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:11:34Z man213 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:12:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:13:08Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:13:19Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:14:01Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:17:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:17:31Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:17:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:18:13Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:18:19Z mattprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:18:33Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:20:26Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:21:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:22:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:22:38Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:22:50Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:23:02Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:24:05Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I add these two bits in .emacs and .sbclrc respectively, correct? 2015-10-16T19:27:10Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:27:27Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:27:59Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:28:10Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:28:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:32:09Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:32:15Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:34:14Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T19:36:38Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:36:44Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:38:01Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:39:36Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:41:26Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:41:33Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:41:41Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:46:09Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:46:16Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:50:56Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:51:10Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:52:36Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T19:55:29Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:55:29Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:55:35Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T19:55:57Z phoe_krk_: pjb: if I understand correctly, then, from SBCL, I can take advantage of the full extent of Emacs Lisp, correct? 2015-10-16T19:57:02Z phoe_krk_: pjb: and, through that, hack the editor to suit my needs, such as, create *app-output* and *app-input* buffers, append my program output to *app-output* buffer and send everything typed line-by-line into the *app-input* buffer over to my program, correct? 2015-10-16T19:57:39Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T19:59:36Z ARM7 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T20:00:17Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:00:24Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:01:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:01:27Z hydan`` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:01:51Z hydan`` is now known as udzinari 2015-10-16T20:02:27Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:02:33Z udzinari is now known as hydan_ 2015-10-16T20:03:01Z hydan_ is now known as hydan`` 2015-10-16T20:03:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:04:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:04:49Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:04:59Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:05:15Z hydan``: are there any cross-platform clx applications? would love to take a look at how they pulled it off 2015-10-16T20:05:30Z phoe_krk_: pjb: the line (let ((result (SWANK::EVAL-IN-EMACS `(format "%S" ,form) nowait)) results in an error form my SBCL. for some weird reason, "Package SWANK does not exist." 2015-10-16T20:05:52Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-16T20:06:07Z me joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:06:17Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I'll try to put that in the app-code, not in .sbcclrc 2015-10-16T20:06:23Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:06:31Z me is now known as Guest38572 2015-10-16T20:07:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:09:42Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:09:48Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:12:13Z phadthai: hydan``: it shouldn't be hard for it to connect to various X11 servers on various OSs, but if you want to support Windows, you'd have to provide an X11 server like cygwin-xorg or such too... but I'm not totally certain of which cross-platform definition you used 2015-10-16T20:12:29Z raphaelsss joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:12:50Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:13:04Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:13:50Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:14:02Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:14:03Z hydan``: phadthai: that is what I was asking about, OS X has Xquartz, windows has cygwin-xorg/xming it should definitely be possible to make a cl application to run on all those using clx, just wondering if there are already any in existence. 2015-10-16T20:14:22Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:15:32Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:15:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:16:37Z phadthai: hydan``: ok... I agree with you; I have no current example though... cliki.net might help perhaps; I know that garnet was a CL X11 toolkit, so maybe some garnet applications also 2015-10-16T20:18:34Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:18:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:19:10Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:22:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:23:29Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:23:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:23:47Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:24:18Z grindhold quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-16T20:26:12Z grindhold joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:28:26Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:28:28Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:28:35Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:28:35Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:30:13Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:30:25Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:31:25Z pizzatastesgood quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-10-16T20:32:56Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:33:08Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:34:21Z hugoduncan joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:35:50Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:37:39Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:37:56Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:40:35Z hugoduncan is now known as hugod` 2015-10-16T20:42:33Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:42:41Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:42:47Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:44:18Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:44:45Z phoe_krk_: is a defparameter globally binding, no matter where I call it from? 2015-10-16T20:45:00Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-16T20:45:09Z phoe_krk_: or defun? 2015-10-16T20:45:16Z newdan: phoe_krk_: I think so, yes. defun too. (Bit of a lisp newbie but I tried to make local vars and it didn't seem to work) 2015-10-16T20:45:35Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:45:37Z newdan: For local vars you gotta use (let) and for local functions you gotta use (labels) afaik 2015-10-16T20:46:09Z phoe_krk_: newdan: it's a design fault on my side, then :P 2015-10-16T20:46:33Z phoe_krk_: how do I get quicklisp to eval some lisp code upon loading a package? 2015-10-16T20:46:47Z Xach: phoe_krk_: that's not a feature of quicklisp, sorry. 2015-10-16T20:46:56Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:46:57Z phoe_krk_: Xach: asdf? 2015-10-16T20:47:01Z Xach: phoe_krk_: did you have a particular bit of code in mind? 2015-10-16T20:47:13Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:47:14Z phoe_krk_: Xach: yes, the bit of code in http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414 2015-10-16T20:47:20Z Xach: phoe_krk_: one option is to define a new system that depends-on the target system, and have that new system run the code you want. but that can be awkward. it depends on the situation. 2015-10-16T20:47:22Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-16T20:47:46Z phoe_krk_: Xach: I need to have this bit of CL code eval'd upon load 2015-10-16T20:47:48Z Xach: phoe_krk_: what do you want to load that after? 2015-10-16T20:48:02Z phoe_krk_: XachX: I want to load this, uh, in general 2015-10-16T20:48:09Z phoe_krk_: wait, wrong Xach 2015-10-16T20:48:12Z phoe_krk_: Xach: I want to load this, uh, in general 2015-10-16T20:48:25Z Xach: You could put it in an init file 2015-10-16T20:48:29Z phoe_krk_: just so it gets eval'd, so I can hook into emacs and eval in there 2015-10-16T20:48:48Z phoe_krk_: Xach: putting this into .sbclrc gives me an error of SWANK not being found. 2015-10-16T20:48:54Z emaczen: Is it possible to do something like (asdf:load-system :name :version 0.1) 2015-10-16T20:48:57Z Xach: phoe_krk_: You could put it into your swank init file. 2015-10-16T20:49:17Z Xach: I don't remember the name of it, sorry. I think it's something like ~/.swank.lisp 2015-10-16T20:50:41Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T20:51:28Z phoe_krk_: Xach: I can't find anything like that, except for the huge swank.lisp that seems to be the main piece of code 2015-10-16T20:51:46Z Xach: phoe_krk_: you have to create it. 2015-10-16T20:51:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:52:07Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:52:53Z SgtGarci` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:53:45Z phoe_krk_: YES. That's the file, thanks. 2015-10-16T20:54:07Z phoe_krk_: So now I have .emacs and .swank.lisp both hooked up together. 2015-10-16T20:54:15Z phoe_krk_: I think it's about time to start hacking, or something. 2015-10-16T20:54:26Z Xach: hack away, friend 2015-10-16T20:54:40Z Xach: Be careful with pjb code, though. He has been known to try to delete all your files. 2015-10-16T20:54:48Z Xach: read it thoroughly 2015-10-16T20:55:45Z phoe_krk_: Xach: I can't see anything bad in there. 2015-10-16T20:56:18Z phoe_krk_ left #lisp 2015-10-16T20:56:23Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:56:35Z phoe_krk_: that was weird 2015-10-16T20:56:47Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T20:56:56Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T20:58:07Z njorth_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-16T21:00:03Z emaczen: Can you load systems based on versions? I have a good amount of code that depends heavily on a system, and I want to greatly modify this system, but will continue using the old system for the "good amount of code" 2015-10-16T21:01:15Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T21:01:22Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:04:03Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:05:10Z mood: emaczen: I don't believe you can choose to load a specific version. You can depend on a certain version, but then it'll just error on load because the found system's version doesn't match 2015-10-16T21:05:20Z mood: I'm not sure though 2015-10-16T21:05:21Z Xach: emaczen: do you mean that multiple versions are loaded at the same time? 2015-10-16T21:05:29Z emaczen: Xach: No 2015-10-16T21:05:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T21:06:10Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:06:26Z emaczen: mood: I guess I could just switch between git versions then and use :version 2015-10-16T21:06:26Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T21:06:39Z emaczen: thanks! It was unclear to me exactly what the capabilities of :version were. 2015-10-16T21:09:30Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T21:10:22Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T21:10:30Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T21:10:38Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:11:06Z emaczen: What is a good resource to learn about how CLOS is implemented? 2015-10-16T21:11:20Z Seeq joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:12:13Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: AMOP 2015-10-16T21:12:21Z Bicyclidine: even has an example implementation 2015-10-16T21:12:31Z emaczen: Is AMOP free? 2015-10-16T21:12:53Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:13:02Z Xach: emaczen: some chapters are 2015-10-16T21:13:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-16T21:15:21Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T21:15:29Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:16:32Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T21:17:57Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-16T21:19:11Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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That's sweet. 2015-10-16T22:11:53Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T22:12:01Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:12:22Z phoe_krk_: so let me drive that out from my .emacs. 2015-10-16T22:12:35Z phoe_krk_: (setf slime-enable-evaluate-in-emacs t) stays, though? 2015-10-16T22:13:27Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:13:33Z pjb: This is for calls in the other direction, for CL to send forms to be evaluated in emacs. So yes, if you want to do that. 2015-10-16T22:13:49Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-16T22:13:49Z phoe_krk_: I'd like to do both direction. 2015-10-16T22:13:57Z pjb: for eval-in-emacs. 2015-10-16T22:13:57Z phoe_krk_: directions. 2015-10-16T22:14:14Z phoe_krk_: yes, I'd like that. 2015-10-16T22:14:16Z pjb: But perhaps there's also something new in swank to replace eval-in-emacs. 2015-10-16T22:15:20Z phoe_krk_: .... 2015-10-16T22:15:25Z phoe_krk_: This example in the file doesn't work either. 2015-10-16T22:15:29Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:15:41Z phoe_krk_: "void-function: buffer-named" in SLDB. 2015-10-16T22:15:46Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:15:58Z pjb: Xach: even if the code I publish looks innocent, nothing prevents the provider of a library I'd use to change the meaning of a function I'd use to do what you seem to be afraid of. 2015-10-16T22:16:19Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:16:24Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:18:34Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:18:41Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:19:31Z phoe_krk_: pjb: found it 2015-10-16T22:19:46Z phoe_krk_: s/buffer-named/get-buffer/g 2015-10-16T22:19:58Z phoe_krk_: but the evaluation works. 2015-10-16T22:20:44Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:20:57Z ghard` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T22:21:05Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:21:26Z phoe_krk_: I will simply create an *app-out* buffer and redirect all output there line by line. 2015-10-16T22:21:41Z phoe_krk_: And I will create an *app-in* buffer and, uh, somehow, transmit all input to the app, line-by-line. 2015-10-16T22:21:50Z phoe_krk_: sounds sane? 2015-10-16T22:22:08Z pjb: Xach: https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf 2015-10-16T22:22:38Z pjb: You can do that. 2015-10-16T22:22:54Z pjb: phoe_krk_: however, you might prefer to design your application slightly differently. 2015-10-16T22:23:08Z pjb: phoe_krk_: if your app has simple text input and output, you can just run it in the slime-repl. 2015-10-16T22:23:47Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I actually have a slightly different thought. I want to run a single worker function that transmits all the data and have the REPL free. 2015-10-16T22:24:12Z phoe_krk_: pjb: at least for now, while I'm writing all the code; a REPL will simply always be handy. 2015-10-16T22:24:20Z phoe_krk_: and I will need *more* than just one output and one input. 2015-10-16T22:24:21Z pjb: phoe_krk_: otherwise, you can implement the user interface as an emacs mode (managing as many emacs buffer as you need), and communicating with the inferior lisp process either via the slime protocol, or via your own protocol, using emacs network process to connect to your lisp process. 2015-10-16T22:24:51Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I want one IO stream for what the client sees and types, and one IO stream for seeing everything the server sends me. 2015-10-16T22:24:51Z pjb: phoe_krk_: in a way you'd implement the app/ui like in web-server/javascript using emacs-lisp instead of javascript. 2015-10-16T22:25:09Z pjb: phoe_krk_: my indications above told you to create two slime repl. Or more. 2015-10-16T22:25:15Z pjb: M-x slime RET M-x slime RET y RET 2015-10-16T22:25:21Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I'm writing the protocol implementation from scratch, so I will need to see *everything* the server sends me. 2015-10-16T22:25:27Z pjb: s/y/n/ sorry. 2015-10-16T22:25:27Z phoe_krk_: hm. 2015-10-16T22:25:39Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:25:59Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:26:22Z pjb: Perhaps, I'm wrong and it's not the right incantation. 2015-10-16T22:26:35Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I only need the server output now, during the writing/debug phase. 2015-10-16T22:26:53Z phoe_krk_: once I'm done, I'll simply turn the streams off; the final person running this won't need any of this. 2015-10-16T22:27:57Z phoe_krk_: I need to hook up a "wiretap terminal" in the app's middle, between what's going on between the server and the client. 2015-10-16T22:28:18Z phoe_krk_: and, for that, I don't want to fire up a whole REPL; I literally only need the ability to read from the stream and send into it. 2015-10-16T22:29:02Z phoe_krk_: and for that, I *will* need two buffers, because I don't have the beard and/or knowledge and/or time to implement it single-bufferedly. 2015-10-16T22:30:11Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:30:14Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-16T22:30:27Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:30:48Z pjb: phoe_krk_: yes it seems you have to start a new swank server explicitely to have an additionnal connection, since the one started by slime is not multi-connections. Eval: (swank:create-server :port 4008 :dont-close t) in the slime-repl, then M-x slime-connect RET RET 4008 RET n RET should create a new slime-repl to the same CL process. 2015-10-16T22:31:03Z pjb: You can then use one repl to run your app and the other to debug it or whatever. 2015-10-16T22:31:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:31:50Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:31:57Z pjb: Notice also that by giving a public IP address to listen to for create-server (or preferably an address to a ssh tunnel), you can slime-connect from a different computer across the internet. 2015-10-16T22:32:20Z luis joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:32:35Z phoe_krk_: pjb: somehow, this idea doesn't look all that good to me. I'd really prefer it the emacs-style instead of the slime-style; having buffers and appending to them/reading from them and sending that into CL streams seems much simpler than designing a whole CL debugging environment to run from a new SWANK server. 2015-10-16T22:32:53Z phoe_krk_: and I don't need the networking. :P I'm developing it locally. 2015-10-16T22:33:00Z pjb: Are you writing a new debugger? 2015-10-16T22:33:01Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-16T22:33:06Z phoe_krk_: pjb: no. 2015-10-16T22:33:13Z pjb: What are you doing? 2015-10-16T22:33:32Z phoe_krk_: pjb: writing a client for one of the less popular graphical chats. 2015-10-16T22:33:54Z pjb: in CL? 2015-10-16T22:34:00Z phoe_krk_: in CL. 2015-10-16T22:34:09Z pjb: And projecting it to text instead of graphics? 2015-10-16T22:34:18Z pjb: to do you still transmit graphics? 2015-10-16T22:34:40Z phoe_krk_: pjb: to be more precise, I want CL to do all the logic and only sent human-readable text input over a pipe/socket/anything over to Unity3D, which will handle all the graphics. 2015-10-16T22:34:59Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:35:02Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:35:16Z phoe_krk_: I want CL to connect to the server and turn the *&#@^%*@#$ protocol into something nicer, like sexprs, and send that to something I'll code up in Unity3D. 2015-10-16T22:35:18Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:35:21Z ghard` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:35:35Z pjb: Is Unity3D an emacs-lisp program? 2015-10-16T22:35:53Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: blame bcode (and justache, but mostly bcode really)) 2015-10-16T22:36:06Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:36:07Z phoe_krk_: pjb: HELL NO. 2015-10-16T22:36:18Z pjb: Then I fail to see why emacs is involved in that. 2015-10-16T22:36:30Z phoe_krk_: pjb: it's what I'm writing the program in. 2015-10-16T22:36:37Z phoe_krk_: pjb: it's what I'm implementing the protocol in. 2015-10-16T22:36:40Z pjb: Aren't you writing the program in Common Lisp? 2015-10-16T22:37:05Z phoe_krk_: I am writing the program in Common Lisp (language) / emacs (IDE/texteditor). 2015-10-16T22:37:42Z pjb: emacs is irrelevant to the architecture of your program, unless you use it to implement parts of your program. 2015-10-16T22:38:01Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I use it to implement parts of my program. 2015-10-16T22:38:17Z pjb: What part? 2015-10-16T22:38:19Z phoe_krk_: pjb: as in. 2015-10-16T22:38:21Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:38:38Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I want to use it as a way of peeking what's going on between the server and my code. 2015-10-16T22:38:48Z pjb: (I find it quite silly to try to use emacs to implement part of a program written in Common Lisp since Common Lisp is way more powerful than emacs lisp). 2015-10-16T22:38:58Z phoe_krk_: pjb: the final product won't have any use for emacs. 2015-10-16T22:39:16Z pjb: phoe_krk_: I told you, to debug a CL process, you only need to call swank:create-server and use M-x slime-connect instead of M-x slime. 2015-10-16T22:39:30Z ghard` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:39:36Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I just want to have an emacs buffer that shows me the whole server output and have another buffer that will allow me to send commands to a server input ;_; 2015-10-16T22:39:40Z pjb: phoe_krk_: or just use M-x slime while developping and debugging. 2015-10-16T22:39:54Z pjb: Use the slime-repl for that. 2015-10-16T22:40:00Z phoe_krk_: hm. 2015-10-16T22:40:08Z phoe_krk_: I'll try. 2015-10-16T22:40:24Z phoe_krk_: But it just doesn't seem natural for me. 2015-10-16T22:40:26Z phoe_krk_: maybe I'm wrong. 2015-10-16T22:40:30Z pjb: You're new. 2015-10-16T22:40:36Z pjb: This is designed exactly for that. 2015-10-16T22:40:54Z phoe_krk_: I'll try. 2015-10-16T22:41:15Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:41:32Z jleija quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-16T22:41:37Z phoe_krk_: Can I simply write a loop that will print server output at me and run it in repl 2, and another loop that will get input from me and send it to the server and run it in repl 3? 2015-10-16T22:41:47Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:42:26Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:44:35Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:45:16Z pjb: You can put (in-package :swank) (setf *dont-close* t) in your ~/.swank.lisp if you want the swank server started by slime to be multi-connection, and then when you M-x slime-connect RET RET the-port-where-it-started-which-is-indicated-in-*inferior-lisp* RET to connect. Might be easier to just start a new swank server on your own port. 2015-10-16T22:47:49Z pjb: phoe_krk_: now, when you want to use multiple slime repls from a CL program, the slime streams are bound to *terminal-io* et al. in each repl. So you have to bind them from each slime repl to global variables to be accessed by the program. 2015-10-16T22:47:49Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-16T22:48:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:48:34Z nydel_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-16T22:48:52Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I don't really want to use them from within the program. 2015-10-16T22:48:57Z pjb: You can do: (defparameter *repl-1* *terminal-io*)in the first repl, and (defparameter *repl-2* *terminal-io*) in the second one. Then you could do something like (defparameter *both* (make-broadcast-stream (two-way-stream-output-stream *repl-1*) (two-way-stream-output-stream *repl-2*))) and (write-line "Hello" *both*) to write onto both repls at the same time. 2015-10-16T22:49:11Z pjb: Well, you want to redirect some log output on one repl at least. 2015-10-16T22:49:20Z phoe_krk_: pjb: I'd just use a function (output-loop) on REPL2 that would print me everything. 2015-10-16T22:49:27Z pjb: You can do that. 2015-10-16T22:49:28Z phoe_krk_: And then use (input-loop) on REPL3 to input commands. 2015-10-16T22:49:31Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-16T22:49:37Z phoe_krk_: And that would work, I think. 2015-10-16T22:49:41Z pjb: Definitely. 2015-10-16T22:50:42Z phoe_krk_: Hum. 2015-10-16T22:50:52Z phoe_krk_: That solves my problem, then. 2015-10-16T22:51:13Z phoe_krk_: Can I actually tell swank to spawn three REPLs on startup? 2015-10-16T22:51:45Z pjb: You could write a command to do that, yes. 2015-10-16T22:51:48Z MrDummyXYZ2088 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:51:53Z ben_vulpes left #lisp 2015-10-16T22:52:00Z phoe_krk_: Can I do that in the init file? 2015-10-16T22:52:06Z MrDummyXYZ2088 left #lisp 2015-10-16T22:52:14Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-16T22:54:31Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-16T22:54:52Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-16T22:55:27Z phoe_krk_: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dmrepl.html#slime_002dmrepl Or rather, how should I use that? 2015-10-16T22:56:30Z raphaelsss is now known as raphaelss 2015-10-16T22:57:29Z phoe_krk_: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-mrepl.el Found that. Do I somehow download this and emacs-run this? 2015-10-16T22:59:01Z pjb: phoe_krk_: something like: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D3T 2015-10-16T23:00:10Z pjb: It's a contribu, so you add it to your slime-setup call in ~/.emacs: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-banner slime-repl slime-mrepl)) 2015-10-16T23:00:50Z pjb: Check http://paste.lisp.org/+3D3T you could call this after calling (slime) to get the additionnal repls in ~/.emacs 2015-10-16T23:01:45Z phoe_krk_: I only have slime-fancy in the setup though. 2015-10-16T23:02:54Z pjb: Add more there. 2015-10-16T23:03:07Z pjb: slime-fancy must include slime-repl and a few others already. 2015-10-16T23:03:58Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:04:32Z phoe_krk_: banner is the weird effect on startup? 2015-10-16T23:05:14Z phoe_krk_: okay, it seems to work, now just a bit of polishing... 2015-10-16T23:05:31Z phoe_krk_: 1) the code prints 4007 in my first repl. (doesn't matter much.) 2015-10-16T23:05:49Z pjb: The result of the slime-eval-print. 2015-10-16T23:05:49Z phoe_krk_: 2) the code asks me if I want to close old connections first. (matters, it forces me to answer y/n) 2015-10-16T23:05:56Z pjb: Say n. 2015-10-16T23:06:14Z pjb: I hoped the interactive-p nil would prevent it. 2015-10-16T23:06:49Z pjb: I'm dumb. Just remove the two last arguments to the call to slime-connect (nil t). 2015-10-16T23:07:34Z phoe_krk_: perfect! 2015-10-16T23:07:35Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D3T/1 2015-10-16T23:07:42Z phoe_krk_: that's the thing I needed. :D 2015-10-16T23:08:06Z phoe_krk_: might need to update your github with a little bit of new code, then, especially the new slime commands. 2015-10-16T23:08:26Z pjb: Yes, I'll have to. 2015-10-16T23:08:58Z phoe_krk_: just one more thing 2015-10-16T23:09:06Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:09:36Z phoe_krk_: is there a command to tie (ql:quickload :packname)(in-package #:packname) together or do I need to write a macro for that? 2015-10-16T23:10:38Z pjb: (defun load-and-in-package-for-package-named-as-system (name) (ql:quickload name) (setf *package* (or (ignore-errors (find-package name)) *package*))) 2015-10-16T23:10:49Z phoe_krk_: > 2015-10-16T23:10:51Z pjb: See, not too useufl. 2015-10-16T23:10:51Z phoe_krk_: >load-and-in-package-for-package-named-as-system 2015-10-16T23:10:57Z phoe_krk_: you are kidding me 2015-10-16T23:11:06Z pjb: It won't work often. 2015-10-16T23:11:47Z phoe_krk_: but it works in my case 2015-10-16T23:11:52Z phoe_krk_: just precisely what I needed. 2015-10-16T23:11:55Z phoe_krk_: thanks! 2015-10-16T23:12:06Z pjb: But this shouldn't prevent you to write such personnal commands in your rc file, or to write a loader.lisp file in your project to do this kind of things (but load binds *package* so it won't do for in-package). 2015-10-16T23:12:07Z phoe_krk_: I only shortened the name to load-wtf because it was too long. 2015-10-16T23:12:17Z pjb: or just l 2015-10-16T23:12:22Z phoe_krk_: I'll rc it. 2015-10-16T23:12:44Z pjb: You may even use a keyword, so it's easily accessible whatever package you're in (defun :l (name) …) 2015-10-16T23:12:58Z phoe_krk_: I just used a keyword with this code above 2015-10-16T23:12:59Z phoe_krk_: it worked. 2015-10-16T23:13:07Z phoe_krk_: oh! 2015-10-16T23:13:08Z phoe_krk_: :l 2015-10-16T23:13:11Z pjb: You wouldn't use a keyword like that in published code, but in your rc file, for repl usage, it's ok. 2015-10-16T23:13:14Z phoe_krk_: as the *name* of the function 2015-10-16T23:13:24Z phoe_krk_: that's fun. 2015-10-16T23:14:16Z zacts|pi joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:14:30Z phoe_krk_: a single command and I'm in the project I'm developing. 2015-10-16T23:15:06Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:16:03Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T23:17:34Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:17:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:18:39Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:18:39Z guaqua` is now known as guaqua 2015-10-16T23:19:05Z phoe_krk_: o_o 2015-10-16T23:19:09Z phoe_krk_: I went into the repl 2015-10-16T23:19:18Z phoe_krk_: (swank:eval-in-emacs '(my-slime-repls)) 2015-10-16T23:19:26Z phoe_krk_: And sbcl crashed. 2015-10-16T23:19:40Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:21:46Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:22:11Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T23:24:57Z pjb: Probably better to avoid recursive swank-slime interactions. 2015-10-16T23:25:05Z pjb: call my-slime-repls from emacs. 2015-10-16T23:25:39Z phoe_krk_: I mean 2015-10-16T23:25:45Z phoe_krk_: uhhh 2015-10-16T23:25:46Z hydan`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:26:08Z phoe_krk_: now, for some weird reason. 2015-10-16T23:26:16Z phoe_krk_: every call to eval-in-emacs crashes sbcl. 2015-10-16T23:26:19Z pjb: slime/swank work with threads, and there may be some common resource needed. 2015-10-16T23:27:22Z phoe_krk_: even a trivial (eval-in-emacs '()) 2015-10-16T23:27:35Z phoe_krk_: something went wrong. just, where. 2015-10-16T23:27:48Z pjb: Yes, it should be updated just like eval-in-cl is obsolete. 2015-10-16T23:28:11Z phoe_krk_: but it worked a while ago! 2015-10-16T23:28:42Z pjb: Then something has been broken :-( try to kill all slime repl and inferior-lisp buffers restart from M-x slime. 2015-10-16T23:28:59Z hugod` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:29:18Z phoe_krk_: I ended up restarting the whole emacs 2015-10-16T23:29:21Z phoe_krk_: and the result is the same. 2015-10-16T23:29:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:29:32Z hydan` joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:29:33Z pjb: you'll have to debug then. 2015-10-16T23:29:38Z phoe_krk_: kasjgldkjlgdfsg 2015-10-16T23:29:46Z phoe_krk_: how the hell do I debug this ;_; 2015-10-16T23:32:33Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:32:37Z phoe_krk_: this thing just exploded on me. 2015-10-16T23:33:49Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-16T23:34:15Z pjb: When sbcl crashes there's usually a low level debugger that let you see registers and stack. Perhaps ask on #sbcl? 2015-10-16T23:34:27Z pjb: Implementations should not crash. 2015-10-16T23:36:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:36:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:36:50Z mattprelude quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:37:10Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:38:00Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:38:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:41:55Z phoe_krk_: NAILED IT 2015-10-16T23:42:19Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:42:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:42:38Z phoe_krk_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156954 2015-10-16T23:42:47Z phoe_krk_: this is my ~/.swank.lisp file 2015-10-16T23:42:54Z phoe_krk_: right now, this is working 2015-10-16T23:43:13Z phoe_krk_: if you move the bottom two lines to the top, calling (swank::eval-in-lisp ...) causes SBCL to explode 2015-10-16T23:43:27Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:44:56Z ziocroc2 quit (Quit: ziocroc2) 2015-10-16T23:45:06Z pjb: .swank.lisp is probably loaded in the SWANK package. You are defining a function with an infinite recursion. Therefore bang. 2015-10-16T23:45:43Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:46:28Z phoe_krk_: Oh---- 2015-10-16T23:46:30Z phoe_krk_: Oh. 2015-10-16T23:46:33Z phoe_krk_: Yes. 2015-10-16T23:48:52Z phoe_krk_: Silly me. 2015-10-16T23:49:26Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-16T23:49:54Z phoe_krk_: thanks, guys 2015-10-16T23:50:09Z phoe_krk_: you're really making me feel at home in my emacs 2015-10-16T23:50:20Z phoe_krk_: which I didn't think was possible at all when I first touched it. o_o 2015-10-16T23:52:26Z phoe_krk_: .... 2015-10-16T23:52:38Z phoe_krk_: #sbcl tells me that this whole hack isn't necessary 2015-10-16T23:52:55Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:53:00Z Bicyclidine: congratulations! 2015-10-16T23:53:09Z phoe_krk_: (swank:eval-in-emacs `(null (switch-to-buffer "*scratch*"))) 2015-10-16T23:53:12Z phoe_krk_: seemingly works out of the box 2015-10-16T23:54:50Z phoe_krk_: ... 2015-10-16T23:55:01Z phoe_krk_: pjb: what was the function to evaluate in CL from emacs? 2015-10-16T23:55:55Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:56:30Z ajtulloc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T23:57:05Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:57:37Z ajtulloc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-16T23:58:06Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-16T23:58:55Z hydan`: I need advice on CL GUI programming. I am writing a game, but it will have *a lot* of text centered interaction. It is more like text interface with graphics than graphics with text. I checked couple of directions: doing text in opengl, using QT and its graphics support, clutter and few other things. I cannot see a clear path forward. 2015-10-16T23:59:12Z phoe_krk_: CL> swank:eval-in-emacs / ELISP> slime-eval 2015-10-16T23:59:15Z phoe_krk_: pjb: CL> swank:eval-in-emacs / ELISP> slime-eval 2015-10-16T23:59:16Z hydan`: CommonQT stuck on Qt4 for now and folks are helping drmeister with clasp, clutter is pretty much abandoned, doing text in opengl is PITA and it is slow. I was looking at using clx as well today but that does not seem too promising either 2015-10-16T23:59:18Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:59:18Z phoe_krk_: these two commands 2015-10-16T23:59:30Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-16T23:59:33Z phoe_krk_: are all that's needed. 2015-10-16T23:59:54Z pjb: slime-eval-print slime-eval-save 2015-10-17T00:00:15Z hydan`: I would just buy lispworks and use CAPI, but I want an open system with M-. sort of thing to everything in there, and that is not an option (?) with LW. It looks like whichever way I choose I will have to do my own thing with combining text/GL in a satisfactory way. I would be immensely grateful if somebody could advice on where to do that, because I am really stuck now.. :( 2015-10-17T00:00:23Z pjb: hydan`: perhaps McCLIM would be good for yo. 2015-10-17T00:00:26Z pjb: you 2015-10-17T00:00:40Z Bicyclidine: it's my understanding that LW will give you sources on a conditional basis if you need them and are a paying client. 2015-10-17T00:00:52Z Bicyclidine: LW... whatever company makes LW, I mean. whatever. 2015-10-17T00:01:02Z hydan`: Bicyclidine: to me yes, to those who use my product, no 2015-10-17T00:01:14Z pjb: It's LispWorks Ltd. 2015-10-17T00:01:15Z Bicyclidine: oh, i misunderstood. 2015-10-17T00:01:36Z pjb: LispWorks Ltd. makes LispWorks Common Lisp 2015-10-17T00:01:39Z Bicyclidine: well, maybe ask shinmera, then, next time he's around. 2015-10-17T00:01:50Z pjb: Franz Inc made Franz Lisp and now makes Allegro Common Lisp. 2015-10-17T00:02:35Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T00:02:50Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:03:16Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:03:35Z Bicyclidine: meaning qt-libs 2015-10-17T00:03:50Z phoe_krk_: okay, going home~ thanks, guys 2015-10-17T00:03:56Z phoe_krk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T00:04:15Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:04:21Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:06:11Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:06:27Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:07:40Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: dead) 2015-10-17T00:08:26Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:08:31Z hydan`: Bicyclidine: that is commonqt with wrappers, is it not? and that is stuck on qt4 atm. it is quite usable, but qt4 it is in the same box with clutter. already being replaced. plus the niceties of ffi, and the fact that porting it to qt5 will not be that easy. 2015-10-17T00:08:54Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:11:21Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T00:11:51Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:12:13Z akkad: hydan`: M-. works in lispworks + slime 2015-10-17T00:12:42Z akkad: or you mean capi? 2015-10-17T00:14:15Z drmeister: hydan`: FYI we just got an SFML demo working in clasp 2015-10-17T00:15:05Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-17T00:15:33Z hydan`: akkad: I mean having M-. to everything in my software for its users. 2015-10-17T00:16:33Z hydan`: pjb: I see why you would suggest McCLIM, but I cannot see how drawbacks of that one are less than the ones for other options :( 2015-10-17T00:17:24Z hydan`: drmeister: awesome! I will check #clasp logs. 2015-10-17T00:17:38Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:18:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:18:44Z phf: hydan`: why not sdl? 2015-10-17T00:20:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:23:49Z phf: you will still have to implement text widgets, e.g. reflow, scrolling, since sdl's text support is essentially limited to "put a sequence of glyphs at this location", but it'll be easier to do then opengl 2015-10-17T00:24:22Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:27:15Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:31:05Z oGMo: phf: not really :P 2015-10-17T00:31:37Z oGMo: you can just draw it to a texture in GL with SDL, cairo, ft2, etc 2015-10-17T00:31:49Z oGMo: marginally more work 2015-10-17T00:31:59Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:32:03Z oGMo: but SDL is a good way to get a GL context, at least 2015-10-17T00:32:30Z oGMo: but having to reinvent that is a bit of a pain if you want widgets, text, etc right away 2015-10-17T00:34:13Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:34:51Z zacts|pi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:35:09Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:35:09Z phf: oGMo: i guess once you figure out how to setup your gl so that draw text in a texture gives you a reliable 1-to-1 mapping 2015-10-17T00:36:21Z phf: but i agree, if you want textures it's pita 2015-10-17T00:36:33Z phf: if you want widgets rather 2015-10-17T00:36:34Z oGMo: phf: just like drawing it to SDL. in fact, you can draw to SDL and, if you're using sdl2, say "now make this a texture" 2015-10-17T00:37:00Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:37:03Z oGMo: i'd recommend caching glyphs to a texture and arranging tris/quads, but 2015-10-17T00:37:25Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-17T00:37:45Z phf: what about projections etc.? i thought you have to have a dummy object, that's placed just right, etc. 2015-10-17T00:38:12Z oGMo: GL is an API for filling 2D triangles 2015-10-17T00:38:33Z oGMo: there are no "dummy objects" or anything that needs placed in any other manner 2015-10-17T00:38:59Z oGMo: also it does math, and some people use this to hack 3d-looking effects ;) 2015-10-17T00:39:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T00:39:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:39:48Z phf: is that the recent changes to the language that clarified this point, or conceptually it's always been the case? 2015-10-17T00:40:56Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:41:04Z phf: i remember trying to do an equivalent of glterm around 2002 or so, and have the darnest of time getting the thing to give me 1-to-1 texture to screen pixel 2015-10-17T00:41:38Z oGMo: it's always been the case .. the only real concessions to 3D are the z-buffer and some projection matrix functions. textures can be 3D, i guess. 2015-10-17T00:41:41Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:42:20Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:42:47Z phf: in that case i will concede that i have no idea what i'm talking about 2015-10-17T00:43:01Z |3b|: the important part for 3d is the perspective correct texturing 2015-10-17T00:44:02Z keen___ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:45:02Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:46:00Z keen__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:47:45Z hydan`: phf, oGMo: I am looking at that as an option too, but not sure if that is the level of abstraction I am ready to deal with. 2015-10-17T00:47:46Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-17T00:50:44Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:55:18Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:55:29Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-17T00:55:38Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T00:58:13Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:00:09Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-17T01:00:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:01:02Z xristos quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T01:02:18Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:02:51Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:03:15Z hydan`: right now it seems the best I can do is take a chill pill and focus on UI independent stuff. Maybe there will be a better option next year. I hope there will be, clasp progress is really impressive. 2015-10-17T01:04:12Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:04:31Z kini joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:05:54Z nyef: Okay, I'm lost. Is there some easy way to get the value of e, preferably as a double-float, in SBCL, without having to just know the value offhand or look it up? 2015-10-17T01:06:03Z |3b| would probably look at browser for text-heavy games, unless the bit of graphics was particularly involved 2015-10-17T01:06:15Z |3b|: (exp 1)? 2015-10-17T01:06:39Z nyef: Thank you. 2015-10-17T01:06:54Z nyef: I was fairly sure I was missing something obvious-in-retrospect. (-: 2015-10-17T01:07:34Z |3b|: or 1d0 i guess, but that part should be even more obvious :) 2015-10-17T01:07:42Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:07:47Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-17T01:08:53Z nyef: Yes, adding the d0 was fairly straightforward. 2015-10-17T01:09:57Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:11:02Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:11:18Z spyrosoft: Does anyone know Doug Hoyte? 2015-10-17T01:14:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:14:49Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:15:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:17:32Z wielkie_zuo joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:17:59Z wielkie_zuo: Hello. Are there any good, modern web frameworks for LISP? 2015-10-17T01:19:24Z jason_m: wielkie_zuo: Check out clack. It is very general and powerful. There are also more focused frameworks built on top of clack. http://clacklisp.org/ 2015-10-17T01:19:31Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:19:38Z wielkie_zuo: Thank you :) 2015-10-17T01:19:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:20:30Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-10-17T01:20:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:23:25Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:23:50Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:24:36Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:25:54Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:26:33Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:27:48Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:30:39Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:34:18Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:40:43Z FreeBird joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:41:29Z FreeBird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:41:55Z FreeBird joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:44:10Z FreeBird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T01:44:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:44:57Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:46:32Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T01:47:54Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T01:48:33Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:50:11Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:50:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:51:47Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:51:50Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T01:52:31Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:53:16Z nyef: If someone has $10,000 to spare, this might be of interest: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-SYMBOLICS-XL1201-LISP-MACHINE-/221915599560?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 2015-10-17T01:54:37Z wielkie_zuo: nyef: which year is it? 2015-10-17T01:54:54Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:55:23Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:55:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T01:56:21Z nyef: ? 2015-10-17T01:56:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:56:33Z wielkie_zuo: this computer 2015-10-17T01:56:38Z nyef: No clue. 2015-10-17T01:56:54Z nyef: I've never been all that interested in the Symbolics machines. 2015-10-17T01:57:36Z White_Flame: I think they're much more interested emulated 2015-10-17T01:57:38Z wielkie_zuo: anyway, it seems to be older than me :P 2015-10-17T01:57:39Z White_Flame: ..interesting 2015-10-17T01:58:20Z sai_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T01:58:43Z phf: twenex listings always make me feel poor. sometimes i wonder who bought that symbolics keyboard for $1800.. 2015-10-17T01:59:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T01:59:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T02:01:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T02:02:08Z phoe_krk: (define *maximum-recursive-call* (* 60 60 8)) 2015-10-17T02:02:13Z phoe_krk: (defun my-sleep () (sleep 1) (my-sleep)) 2015-10-17T02:02:19Z phoe_krk: (my-sleep) 2015-10-17T02:02:30Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-17T02:05:00Z phoe_krk: I like being woken up by stack overflows 2015-10-17T02:07:30Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T02:08:03Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:08:29Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:12:43Z phadthai: heh 2015-10-17T02:23:48Z pjb: phf: collectors. 2015-10-17T02:32:31Z ajtulloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T02:33:35Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T02:34:37Z White_Flame: a XL1201 straight from symbolics cost $3500 in 2010 2015-10-17T02:35:12Z White_Flame: or "symbolics" depending on your sensitivities ;) 2015-10-17T02:35:22Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:39:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T02:41:28Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:42:25Z sdothum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T02:43:53Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:44:20Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:52:31Z badkins quit 2015-10-17T02:54:24Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-17T02:54:35Z wielkie_zuo left #lisp 2015-10-17T02:55:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:55:33Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T02:55:39Z earl-ducaine: "symbolics-dks" recently did a close-out of all of their remaining hardware, basically everything not needed for spareparts for their remaining service contracts. 2015-10-17T02:58:10Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:00:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-17T03:05:38Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-17T03:06:40Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-10-17T03:10:27Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:11:58Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-17T03:15:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:20:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-17T03:20:51Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-17T03:23:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:24:12Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:24:24Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T03:25:42Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T03:29:32Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-17T03:29:52Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-17T04:41:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good morning beach 2015-10-17T04:48:03Z sdothum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T04:49:21Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-17T04:50:11Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-17T04:52:43Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T04:52:54Z beach: So it looks like Clasp not so much interoperates with C++ but rather transforms C++ classes into classes that can be managed by Clasp Common Lisp. 2015-10-17T04:55:09Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T04:55:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T04:59:58Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:00:31Z dickle quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:00:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:02:28Z jasom: beach: I believe it does both 2015-10-17T05:02:53Z beach: I agree, it's a matter of point of view rather than precise terminology. 2015-10-17T05:03:21Z jasom: My understanding is that you can interop with C++ without making the classes managed, but I might be misunderstanding something. 2015-10-17T05:03:40Z beach: You might be right. 2015-10-17T05:04:48Z beach: Pushing this point of view though, it might be interesting to imagine C++ as a strange notation for a low-level Common Lisp program, and adapt the semantics to Common Lisp, compiler it with a special compiler to make it work with Common Lisp. 2015-10-17T05:05:04Z beach: "compile it" 2015-10-17T05:05:09Z beach: [not quite awake] 2015-10-17T05:06:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:09:17Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:10:48Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:12:27Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:15:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:16:12Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T05:20:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:22:04Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-17T05:22:22Z jlarocco_: sigh, just spent half an hour tinkering with asdf and quicklisp, only to realize my problem was that "registery" is not spelled that way 2015-10-17T05:22:32Z Xach: d'oh 2015-10-17T05:22:43Z Xach: it is, if you mean "very much like a register" 2015-10-17T05:23:14Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:23:25Z jlarocco_: haha, if only asdf saw it that way 2015-10-17T05:23:44Z phax joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:24:32Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:24:59Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:25:53Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T05:26:35Z beach: jlarocco_: I feel your pain. With age I am slowly turning dyslexic. I can stare at a symbol for a very long time and not see that it is misspelled. 2015-10-17T05:29:39Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:30:35Z mrcom joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:35:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:37:01Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:38:10Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:40:20Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:41:30Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T05:41:35Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-17T05:43:50Z jlarocco_: on the plus side, I think I've just about got everything configured and setup the way I like it 2015-10-17T05:53:21Z kini quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-17T05:55:25Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:55:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:56:15Z kini joined #lisp 2015-10-17T05:56:34Z hydan`` joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:00:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:04:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:08:36Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:08:43Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:10:33Z phax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T06:12:16Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:12:29Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-10-17T06:15:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:15:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:15:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:17:50Z hydan`` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:20:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:24:33Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:31:07Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:35:44Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:35:49Z mrcom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T06:37:46Z ajtulloc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:38:40Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:40:16Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:40:28Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:40:47Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:46:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T06:47:13Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:47:24Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:51:37Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T06:52:14Z p8m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T06:52:24Z p8m joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:52:56Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T06:55:06Z faheem__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-17T06:55:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:56:37Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-17T06:58:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:00:04Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T07:00:09Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-17T07:00:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T07:01:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:01:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:10:14Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-17T07:11:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:14:42Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:15:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:16:33Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-17T07:19:25Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:20:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-17T07:20:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T07:24:00Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-17T07:25:23Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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The hmaun barin is vrey porufwel. You can pobbalry raed this wtih vrey ltlite efofrt. 2015-10-17T11:11:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:15:53Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:17:14Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:18:07Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-17T11:19:24Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:22:52Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-17T11:23:00Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-17T11:26:36Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:26:50Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:29:36Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:29:50Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T11:32:24Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T11:34:28Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:34:57Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:36:14Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:36:44Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:46:28Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:48:21Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:49:32Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:51:09Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-10-17T11:54:06Z Baggers left #lisp 2015-10-17T12:03:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:10:02Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:11:14Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T12:12:11Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:15:27Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T12:16:14Z raphaelsss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:16:24Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:17:27Z momo-reina left #lisp 2015-10-17T12:18:09Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:22:59Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-10-17T12:25:37Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-17T12:27:58Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:29:17Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:30:42Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:32:07Z JuanDaugherty: pillton, yeah but stoopid/cuture is even more powerful 2015-10-17T12:33:33Z papachan quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-17T12:33:52Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:34:12Z JuanDaugherty: *culture 2015-10-17T12:34:34Z papachan quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-17T12:34:53Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:34:54Z papachan is now known as Guest87684 2015-10-17T12:38:30Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:38:44Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:39:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T12:40:03Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T12:40:12Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:40:43Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:41:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:41:44Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:41:44Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:42:05Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:44:46Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:46:30Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:48:06Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-17T12:48:06Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:49:10Z papachan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T12:49:46Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:51:56Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T12:51:59Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:53:32Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:54:01Z beach: pillton: Heh! Yeah. 2015-10-17T12:55:00Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T12:55:23Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:55:26Z beach: Also, spell checkers, auto completion, and other tools help compensate. 2015-10-17T12:56:41Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:56:59Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-10-17T12:58:26Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don't have sshd on the android system 2015-10-17T15:29:22Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-17T15:29:23Z John[Lis` joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:31:02Z nyef: jackdaniel: 0.0.0.0 as "loopback address" looks, to a first (and untested) approximation like it would do what you want. 2015-10-17T15:31:10Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-10-17T15:31:31Z nyef: jackdaniel: With the caveat that there's probably very little, if any link security, so your device would be wide open. 2015-10-17T15:32:19Z John[Lisbeth] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T15:32:40Z jackdaniel: nyef: thanks, it's for the testing purposes mainly. I'm polishing the android support for ECL 2015-10-17T15:32:44Z jackdaniel: before pushing to the main branch 2015-10-17T15:36:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:36:15Z nyef: jackdaniel: Good luck, then. 2015-10-17T15:39:33Z Subfusc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T15:39:44Z scottj left #lisp 2015-10-17T15:40:38Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:43:32Z Fade joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:46:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-17T15:49:59Z John[Lis` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T15:52:18Z John[Lis` joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:52:36Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T15:53:45Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ben_vulpes: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2014/01/new-projects-basic-binary-ipc-cl.html << ah well nevermind then. 2015-10-17T18:57:32Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T18:57:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-17T18:58:01Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T18:58:09Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T18:58:41Z jdtest3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T18:59:19Z caca_caca quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T19:04:14Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-17T19:04:53Z caca_caca joined #lisp 2015-10-17T19:05:23Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T19:07:01Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T19:09:15Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T19:12:03Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T19:12:09Z jlarocco_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T19:14:09Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-17T19:14:59Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T19:18:23Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T19:19:09Z 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I trying to port this example(fractal) to abcl "http://nakkaya.com/2009/09/29/fractals-in-clojure-mandelbrot-fractal/" in abcl without exit... 2015-10-17T21:34:55Z alejandrozf: this is what i have http://linkode.org/znh3szpyUpUdHGX4VY7AZ ,would you take me a hand? 2015-10-17T21:35:01Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-10-17T21:35:51Z alejandrozf: sorry! i type the wrong code... 2015-10-17T21:35:59Z alejandrozf: i go again... 2015-10-17T21:36:44Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-17T21:37:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T21:37:16Z alejandrozf: http://linkode.org/wJsj1tcWUukcTi4ONEJQX4 2015-10-17T21:39:13Z axion: firstly, indent properly. secondly, use paste.lisp.org or a paste service that highlights common lisp. 2015-10-17T21:39:31Z axion: i dont think anyone here would try to read that as-is 2015-10-17T21:39:56Z alejandrozf: axion: ok, here i go... 2015-10-17T21:41:19Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:41:42Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:42:28Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-17T21:43:16Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:44:10Z phf: alejandrozf: i'd probably start by abstracting away all that swing functionality inside your payload functions, i.e adding make-color, set-color, draw-line 2015-10-17T21:44:18Z alejandrozf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T21:44:33Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:44:45Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:45:43Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:45:44Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:46:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:51:03Z nikki93 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-17T21:52:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:53:15Z caca_caca quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T21:54:27Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-17T21:55:02Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T21:55:48Z phf: and then you want to ~separately~ ensure that you can spin up a jframe and do a very rudimentary drawing with a sequence of make-color/set-color/draw-line commands 2015-10-17T21:56:06Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T21:58:42Z phf: like first thing i did, is reduce your thing to essentials, http://paste.lisp.org/display/157007, running it with (let ((gfx (make-graphics))) (generate 0 0 100 100 500 gfx 100 100) gfx) doesn't give me anything reasonable though, so there's probably a bug somewhere there... 2015-10-17T21:58:52Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-10-17T21:59:42Z phf: all the pixels are coming out as black 2015-10-17T22:01:40Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-10-17T22:01:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:01:55Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-17T22:02:28Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T22:03:14Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:04:42Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:05:26Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:06:31Z phf: ah, no, it's working with (let ((gfx (make-graphics))) (generate -2.1 -1.4 3.0 3.1 32 gfx 400 400) gfx) 2015-10-17T22:07:25Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-17T22:07:39Z snv: Hi! I maintain the repository with game graphics: https://github.com/saniv/free-game-art it may come handy if you make a game. Hope to see more lisp-based games around. 2015-10-17T22:08:13Z snv: there are also separate repositories with royalty free sfx and music. 2015-10-17T22:08:29Z phf: oh, he left. bah 2015-10-17T22:09:05Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:09:11Z heddwch quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-17T22:09:23Z phf: might as well, connect that thing to sdl.... 2015-10-17T22:09:31Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-17T22:12:08Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-17T22:15:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:25:14Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:30:42Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:31:13Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:32:42Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-17T22:35:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:37:10Z phoe_krk: how is it possible for push not to modify the list it pushes into? I'm puzzled by this piece of code I wrote. 2015-10-17T22:37:18Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:39:13Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:40:02Z phoe_krk: or rather... 2015-10-17T22:40:18Z phoe_krk: when I define a local variable, it does not push. 2015-10-17T22:40:35Z phoe_krk: when I write the piece of code explicitly, it pushes. 2015-10-17T22:42:08Z phoe_krk: ...oh 2015-10-17T22:42:11Z phoe_krk: I bind to a local variable. 2015-10-17T22:42:15Z phoe_krk: not to the external one. 2015-10-17T22:42:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:43:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:43:39Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:46:51Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:49:10Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:50:32Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T22:50:46Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-17T22:52:10Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:56:23Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T22:57:25Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:00:37Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:00:38Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T23:00:44Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:00:59Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T23:01:06Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T23:01:34Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:03:45Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:04:05Z k-stz: snv: hey just wanted to let you know that we have a #lispgames irc 2015-10-17T23:04:51Z snv: k-stz, ty 2015-10-17T23:07:01Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:08:22Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:09:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:09:28Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:11:38Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-17T23:11:57Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:13:14Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-17T23:13:18Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:14:13Z Riviera joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:15:10Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T23:15:53Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-17T23:16:34Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:18:34Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-17T23:19:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:19:09Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:19:40Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T23:23:18Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:29:20Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-17T23:34:40Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:36:28Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:36:45Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:37:24Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:37:43Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:39:32Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-17T23:42:54Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:44:04Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:48:01Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-10-17T23:49:25Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-17T23:52:46Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:53:48Z p8m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:57:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-17T23:58:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T00:00:57Z p8m joined #lisp 2015-10-18T00:02:05Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T00:05:12Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T00:07:11Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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A variable is a place. There are other places, such as slots of structures or slots of arrays. 2015-10-18T01:19:39Z pjb: phoe_krk: so push only modifies the variable. 2015-10-18T01:19:55Z nyef: ... Umm... Not all places are bindings. 2015-10-18T01:20:36Z pjb: nyef: It's an easy extension of the terminology that works well. 2015-10-18T01:20:49Z nyef: So is declaring a variable to be of some given type. 2015-10-18T01:20:56Z pjb: phoe_krk: Notice that the variable that push modifies doesn't even need to be bound to a list before you call push! 2015-10-18T01:21:07Z pjb: phoe_krk: (let ((a 42)) (push 33 a) a) #| --> (33 . 42) |# 2015-10-18T01:21:33Z pjb: nyef: nope. 2015-10-18T01:21:52Z pjb: You don't declare a variable to BE of some type, You declare that you will never bind it to a lisp object of a different type. 2015-10-18T01:22:41Z pjb: phoe_krk: (macroexpand '(push 33 a)) #| --> (setq a (cons 33 a)) ; t |# 2015-10-18T01:23:07Z nyef: Exactly. A vector is not an indexed set of bindings to values, but any of its elements is a value, and a place. 2015-10-18T01:23:23Z pjb: phoe_krk: you see that the code generated by push doesn't modify the lisp object bound to a. It only use it as cdr of a new cons cell. And then bind this new cons cell to the variable a. 2015-10-18T01:24:02Z pjb: nyef: no. The slots of a sequence are places. The elements of a sequence are values. 2015-10-18T01:25:15Z nyef: Okay, yes, you're trying to make an important distinction... But they're not "slots". 2015-10-18T01:25:32Z pjb: phoe_krk: you could introduce a list data type: (defstruct mylist elements) Then you could define a mypush _function_: (defun mypush (e mylist) (push e (mylist-elements mylist))) 2015-10-18T01:26:48Z pjb: phoe_krk: with mypush, you would _modify_ the mypush list, since mypush is a data type. But this would not modify the lisp list bound to (mypush-elements l). Only the slot (mypush-elements l) would be bound to a new cons cell. 2015-10-18T01:27:53Z pjb: s/mypush list/mylist list/ 2015-10-18T01:27:54Z pjb: (let ((l (make-mylist))) (mypush 42 l) (mypush 33 l) l) #| --> #S(mylist :elements (33 42)) |# 2015-10-18T01:29:05Z pjb: nyef: for structures, clos objects, and arrays, CLHS uses the term "slot". 2015-10-18T01:29:06Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:29:51Z pjb: actually the definition is even more general: slot n. a component of an object that can store a value. 2015-10-18T01:30:31Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:31:46Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:34:48Z nyef: I think that we're going to have to disagree here: CLHS seems to be using the term "component" fairly heavily for conses, and "element" for arrays, but never "slot". 2015-10-18T01:35:49Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T01:35:59Z nyef: It's also implying that an array element is either the storage and not the value stored, or it is both disambiguated by context, but does not provide a different term for the storage distinct from the term "element". 2015-10-18T01:37:52Z sssi joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:38:39Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T01:39:50Z g_SG quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-18T01:40:00Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:40:18Z pjb: nyef: yes, that strange, I thought I had seen slot more often. 2015-10-18T01:41:03Z pjb: But the definition of slot definitely apply. 2015-10-18T01:41:52Z pjb: And at least, it makes things clearer to use slots for places and elements for values. 2015-10-18T01:42:50Z pjb: For example, in clhs member, the user of the term "element" definitely refers to the values of the list, not to the slots. 2015-10-18T01:47:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why do some people use #'(lambda (x) . . .) in places where (lambda (x) . . .) works just as well? 2015-10-18T01:47:52Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Stylistic choice. 2015-10-18T01:48:06Z nyef: And early-ANS compatibility, from the period when there was no MACRO LAMBDA. 2015-10-18T01:50:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: thanks, I was hoping that there wasn't some subtle difference that would come back to bite me someday. 2015-10-18T01:51:15Z nyef: IIRC, there's something like _one_ place where there's a semantic difference, probably to do with BOA constructors or condition printers or something like that. I forget the details. 2015-10-18T01:53:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: And it's read to (function (lambda (x) . . . )) ? 2015-10-18T01:53:28Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T01:54:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/to/as/ 2015-10-18T01:55:27Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T01:55:55Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:56:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T01:57:10Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-10-18T01:59:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:01:48Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:03:05Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:04:06Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:04:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:08:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:08:50Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T02:13:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:16:42Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:16:51Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-18T02:19:12Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:21:40Z hydan` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:22:58Z DNoved1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:25:56Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:28:43Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:28:55Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:30:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:33:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:34:44Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:34:46Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T02:41:58Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:42:47Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:43:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:46:33Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:49:01Z jmayfield joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:52:00Z fiddlerwoaroof is impressed by Lisp's condition/restart system 2015-10-18T02:54:00Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:54:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I never really made it all the way to that chapter of pcl, but now that I'm refactoring a bunch of code to make it more loosely coupled, I'm finding it kinda amazing. 2015-10-18T02:54:31Z nyef: Mmm. It's basically exception handling, done right. 2015-10-18T02:55:16Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T02:55:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T02:56:10Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T02:59:35Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T03:00:03Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:02:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:02:46Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T03:03:01Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:06:47Z keen____ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:07:55Z keen___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T03:12:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T03:16:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but things like the way handler-bind let you correct the problem without terminating execution are really eye-opening. 2015-10-18T03:18:48Z nyef: As I said, "done right". 2015-10-18T03:19:08Z nyef: Also, you know how C++ multiple-inheritance kindof sucks? 2015-10-18T03:19:17Z nyef: Lisp's multiple-inheritance doesn't suck. 2015-10-18T03:19:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not really, it's been a while since I've used C++ to any real extent 2015-10-18T03:20:13Z nyef: Yeah, me either, really. Last time I tried to use C++ for anything serious was before they added the whole "template" thing. 2015-10-18T03:21:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've used it since then :) 2015-10-18T03:22:58Z jmayfield: i'm coming at lisp from erlang via lfe.good stuff 2015-10-18T03:23:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't quite understand how people who use languages like C++ and Java can stand writing all the boilerplate necessary to do things that shuold be simple. 2015-10-18T03:24:10Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Honestly? A combination of not really knowing any better, and tool support. 2015-10-18T03:25:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but everyone goes around talking about DRY and such while writing slight variations on the same five lines of code a hundred times 2015-10-18T03:26:09Z badkins quit 2015-10-18T03:26:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then they think they can solve their problems by having their IDE generate the boilerplate. 2015-10-18T03:27:09Z jmayfield: hehe.. i'll never understand how people point at some ide as an excuse for using overly complex languages 2015-10-18T03:27:13Z nyef: Right, it's a bizarre worldview from our perspective, but that goes back to "not really knowing any better". 2015-10-18T03:27:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: I guess so, but even languages like Python and Ruby should suggest that things could be much better. 2015-10-18T03:30:22Z jmayfield: so happy that lfe is coming along so nicely.. lets me indulge my too-long dormant love of lisp WHILE enjoying the erlang vm. anyone here messed with it at all? 2015-10-18T03:30:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmayfield: I tried to get it running once 2015-10-18T03:31:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, lfe is probably more a ##lisp topic since it's not Common Lisp 2015-10-18T03:31:59Z nyef: Finally, _finally_, I seem to have working communication from SBCL to an Arduino board, including some level of reset control and initializing the serial port driver without the help of an external program such as stty or minicom. (-: 2015-10-18T03:32:21Z jmayfield: just mentioning it.. like i said, it's rekindled my cl playing 2015-10-18T03:33:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah 2015-10-18T03:34:17Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T03:41:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:43:24Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T03:44:09Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-18T03:51:41Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T03:52:25Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:00:34Z jmayfield left #lisp 2015-10-18T04:04:11Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-18T04:13:05Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:16:07Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T04:18:29Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-18T04:19:33Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T04:20:55Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T04:29:16Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:29:48Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:29:58Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-18T04:30:18Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T04:31:02Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-18T04:32:12Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T04:33:44Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-18T04:34:40Z pillton: beach: What strategy did you employ to create the tree in your dispatch paper? 2015-10-18T04:35:33Z beach: It's a simple automaton. 2015-10-18T04:36:00Z beach: I just create the automaton in the form of lists. 2015-10-18T04:36:28Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T04:36:39Z beach: Then I do some optimization, and finally generate code in the form of nested IFs. 2015-10-18T04:36:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:37:36Z pillton: There are multiple decision trees which can produce the same result. 2015-10-18T04:38:17Z beach: I suppose so, yes. I just check the classes of the required arguments (other than T) from left to right. 2015-10-18T04:38:28Z pillton: Ah right. 2015-10-18T04:38:55Z pillton: I was going to do what they do in boosting and minimize the entropy at each split. 2015-10-18T04:39:17Z pillton: That way I can handle probabilities of certain methods being called. 2015-10-18T04:40:23Z beach: I am not sure what you are referring to. If it's the PCL paper, I haven't read it for a while, so you need to elaborate. 2015-10-18T04:40:27Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T04:41:47Z pillton: There are papers which talk about algorithms which incorporate statistics of certain methods being called in to the dispatching function. 2015-10-18T04:41:53Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, the macro (lambda (..) ...) expands to (function (lambda (...) ..)), and it's the FUNCTION operator which actually defines the function 2015-10-18T04:42:21Z pillton: beach: i.e. The more probable a method is, the shorter the path to a decision. 2015-10-18T04:42:38Z White_Flame: beach: do you think it would be worth it to track the most common target and have an eq test up front for it? just thinking of how fast-path JITs do it 2015-10-18T04:43:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:43:35Z White_Flame is referring to http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf which was posted recently 2015-10-18T04:43:38Z beach: pillton: Can you give me an example of that. 2015-10-18T04:44:02Z beach: White_Flame: What do you mean by "target"? 2015-10-18T04:44:16Z pillton: beach: Example as in paper or example as in where it would be useful? 2015-10-18T04:44:25Z White_Flame: the most common dispatch target 2015-10-18T04:44:29Z beach: pillton: A concrete example of a set of methods and a call. 2015-10-18T04:45:01Z beach: White_Flame: By "target", do you mean "effective method"? 2015-10-18T04:45:23Z White_Flame: basically. consider (go m1) inside the IF tree as a "target" 2015-10-18T04:45:30Z beach: Oh, I see. 2015-10-18T04:45:55Z CodyReichert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T04:46:03Z beach: White_Flame: How do you test (go m1) with EQ? 2015-10-18T04:46:08Z beach: Sorry, not quite awake yet. 2015-10-18T04:46:48Z White_Flame: I believe the Java tack takes the most common type that hit the dispatch point, and effectively does (when (eq stamp common-case) (go m1)), else does slower processing 2015-10-18T04:47:12Z White_Flame: (java as in oracle JVM) 2015-10-18T04:47:26Z beach: White_Flame: You need to tell me the nature of STAMP and COMMON-CASE. I am sorry for being a bit dense. 2015-10-18T04:47:34Z beach: What are they? 2015-10-18T04:47:49Z White_Flame: referring to your sicl generic-dispatch paper 2015-10-18T04:48:05Z White_Flame: where the 'stamp' is the serialized type indicator from an object 2015-10-18T04:48:05Z beach: OK for the stamp. 2015-10-18T04:48:11Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T04:48:20Z White_Flame: and 'common-case' would be the most commonly observed stamp value that passed through the dispatch 2015-10-18T04:48:31Z beach: You need to test the stamp of every required argument. 2015-10-18T04:48:37Z beach: other than T. 2015-10-18T04:48:41Z White_Flame: right 2015-10-18T04:48:57Z White_Flame: or if those are hashed together, then it's a single value 2015-10-18T04:49:16Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T04:49:23Z beach: OK, I think I understand. 2015-10-18T04:49:44Z beach: That would require gathering statistics for the common case and recompiling accordingly. 2015-10-18T04:49:48Z beach: It could be done, yes. 2015-10-18T04:49:51Z White_Flame: anyway, it sounds like the IF tree you use in sicl dispatch doesn't add much overhead on modern processors anyway. I wonder if a <10 cycle speedup would be attained by special-casing a common case test up front, before the tree, and if that would be a meaningful speedup 2015-10-18T04:50:09Z beach: It could be. 2015-10-18T04:50:20Z White_Flame: simply because that's what the fast JVM & JS JITs do 2015-10-18T04:50:47Z beach: If you have many possibilities, if the stamps are scattered, and if you know the common case (if there is one) it would be worthwhile. 2015-10-18T04:50:59Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-18T04:51:17Z White_Flame: (actually, as far as I understand, they compile the fast-path common case code to native machine code, and if the tests indicates it's not the common case, it drops all the way out to the interpreted version) 2015-10-18T04:51:41Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T04:51:47Z beach: We don't need to do that. We have the compiler available at all times. 2015-10-18T04:52:03Z beach: pillton: Is this what you were referring to as well? 2015-10-18T04:52:47Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:52:56Z White_Flame: I think he's talking about weighting more common cases to occur earlier in the IF tree's checks, whereas I'm just talking about singling out the most common case 2015-10-18T04:53:15Z beach: OK. 2015-10-18T04:53:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:53:23Z pillton: beach: Example 5.1 in https://hal.inria.fr/inria-00073798/document. 2015-10-18T04:53:24Z jfe`` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:53:49Z beach: This Connection is Untrusted 2015-10-18T04:53:52Z beach: Hmm. 2015-10-18T04:54:10Z pillton: beach: The paper is "Efficient Dispatch of Multimethods in Constant Time Using Dispatch Trees" 2015-10-18T04:54:14Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-18T04:54:22Z White_Flame: beach: but as you mention in your paper, since the object's type is held in a register, and the tree compares against compiled literals, it's pretty fast no matter where in the IF tree the final target resides 2015-10-18T04:54:32Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:54:47Z mac_ifie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:54:54Z Yuuhi` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:54:58Z tkd_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:55:34Z beach: pillton: I agree that it would be worthwhile to have a shorter decision path to common cases, provided that there are many possible cases, and that you have statistics about the common case. 2015-10-18T04:55:44Z jself_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:55:49Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:55:58Z beach: White_Flame: It is pretty fast, yes. 2015-10-18T04:56:35Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:56:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T04:56:59Z pegu`` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:10Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:12Z sepi`` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:23Z beach: And branch prediction will take care of the common case being faster. 2015-10-18T04:57:36Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T04:57:37Z pillton: beach: Ok. I will proceed this way then. I have to use typep in my case so I think shorter trees would be of benefit. 2015-10-18T04:57:45Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:46Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:57:52Z beach: Even if the common case changes in different parts of the program, the branch prediction logic of the processor will adapt. 2015-10-18T04:58:02Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:58:04Z j0ni_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:58:08Z lvh_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:58:17Z Bike quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-18T04:58:20Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2015-10-18T04:58:24Z smull_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:58:27Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T04:58:40Z beach: pillton: If you call TYPEP, then that is going to be a few orders of magnitude slower than the discrimination process. 2015-10-18T04:59:07Z White_Flame: (my personal train of thought for my pipe dream lisp implementation would do true JIT call-site recompilation, instead of trying to concentrate all the dispatch decisions into the single generic function) 2015-10-18T04:59:31Z beach: White_Flame: I agree. But it is much harder to do. 2015-10-18T05:00:02Z xrash_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:00:11Z beach: pillton: I don't see how you can use the kind of dispatch in the paper if you are using types. 2015-10-18T05:00:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:00:31Z sytse_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:00:53Z pillton: beach: Types are exactly the same. Some types are subsets of others. 2015-10-18T05:01:17Z beach: pillton: I am saying I don't think you can use inline tests on small integers for that. 2015-10-18T05:01:24Z DANtheBE- joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:01:31Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:02:14Z Subfusc_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:02:16Z beach: pillton: If you have a discrimination automaton that calls TYPEP, then you are going to be WAY much slower than the one I describe in the paper. 2015-10-18T05:02:50Z xrash quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:50Z ahungry quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z yeticry quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z cyphase quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z smull quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z gensym quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z mac_ified quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z Yuuhi quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z Whymind quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z angavrilov quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z kalzz quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z idurand quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z sepi` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z housel quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z lvh quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z zymurgy quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z lokulin quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z DANtheBEASTman quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z sigjuice quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z jself quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:51Z scymtym quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z vlnx quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z tkd quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z jfe` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z PuercoPop quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z rotty quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z Neet quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z SAL9000 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z fluter quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:52Z ktx quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z vsync- quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z Viaken quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z Bugboy1028 quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z sytse quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z clog quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z gendl quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z wolf_mozart quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z swflint_away quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z brucem quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z arrsim quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z pegu` quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:53Z j0ni quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-18T05:02:55Z mood_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:02:55Z Subfusc_ is now known as Subfusc 2015-10-18T05:03:04Z gensym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:03:09Z pillton: Yes probably, but using a decision tree is better than not using one. 2015-10-18T05:03:14Z gensym_ is now known as gensym 2015-10-18T05:03:20Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2015-10-18T05:03:42Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:03:53Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:03:55Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:03:57Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:04:12Z beach: pillton: Then I agree that it become a lot more important to check the common case first. With the technique in the paper, not so much. 2015-10-18T05:04:15Z Bugboy1028 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:04:24Z White_Flame: beach: right, in the case of the actual decision being expensive, statistically optimizing the decision tree would help a lot 2015-10-18T05:04:25Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:04:54Z beach: Yes, I agree. 2015-10-18T05:05:06Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:05:06Z pillton: Ok. We are on the same page then. 2015-10-18T05:05:26Z beach: White_Flame: But then you are susceptible to the common case changing over time, and having to recompile. 2015-10-18T05:05:41Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:05:43Z White_Flame: yep, and figuring out how often to recompile 2015-10-18T05:05:47Z beach: Yes. 2015-10-18T05:06:05Z White_Flame: cache clearing & naming things, etc 2015-10-18T05:06:08Z beach: It is not too bad to rely on the branch-prediction logic of the processor to handle that. 2015-10-18T05:07:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T05:07:23Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T05:07:26Z pillton: beach: The class identifier you use in your paper is part of the internals of the CLOS implementation isn't it? 2015-10-18T05:07:40Z beach: It would be interesting to do some statistics on which generic functions are called often and how many effective methods they have. 2015-10-18T05:07:46Z gko joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:07:51Z beach: pillton: Yes. 2015-10-18T05:08:03Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:08:13Z beach: pillton: And it needs to be updated when a class is modified. 2015-10-18T05:08:17Z tkd_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T05:08:36Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:08:36Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-18T05:08:36Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:08:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:09:06Z housel joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:09:16Z rotty joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:09:44Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:10:03Z pillton: It would be good if you could do it by only introducing a new generic function meta class. 2015-10-18T05:10:03Z Viaken joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:10:13Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:10:39Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:10:44Z beach: I did that in SBCL actually. 2015-10-18T05:11:04Z beach: It is amusing. My technique can co-exist with the native one. 2015-10-18T05:11:13Z beach: ... at least in some limited way. 2015-10-18T05:11:30Z clog joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:11:38Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:11:39Z idurand joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:12:17Z pillton: That is great. That should be mentioned, and if possible, propose additions to the MOP protocol. 2015-10-18T05:13:01Z beach: I would have to think about that. It might be tricky to do the class-modification correctly. 2015-10-18T05:14:02Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:14:06Z gendl joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:14:08Z Neet joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:15:36Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:17:57Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:18:02Z pillton: Oh. Just the MOP, not the meta object protocol protocol. 2015-10-18T05:18:21Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2015-10-18T05:18:33Z beach: Heh! 2015-10-18T05:21:05Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T05:22:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T05:22:14Z pillton: beach: Thanks for answering my questions. 2015-10-18T05:22:40Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:25:34Z beach: Sure. Sorry for not being so smart at this time of day. 2015-10-18T05:28:51Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-18T05:37:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:39:54Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T05:40:20Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:41:58Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:43:19Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-10-18T05:43:19Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:47:57Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:48:20Z pillton: beach: There is nothing stopping me from using typep for non class types and inline tests for classes is there? 2015-10-18T05:49:09Z pillton: The inline tests are essentially subtypep predicates. 2015-10-18T05:49:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:52:20Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:52:45Z tmtwd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T05:53:08Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T05:53:40Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-18T06:00:25Z beach: pillton: Let me think about it for a sec... 2015-10-18T06:01:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:02:05Z beach: I think you are right. 2015-10-18T06:02:28Z beach: You can create an automaton that checks the classes of the arguments first. 2015-10-18T06:02:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:02:39Z beach: ... then do TYPEP if necessary. 2015-10-18T06:03:16Z beach: But, unless you have class numbers as in my paper, you can't use #'< to test for classes, so you don't get logarithmic complexity. 2015-10-18T06:03:46Z beach: You then need to use #'EQ on the class objects, I would think. 2015-10-18T06:04:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:04:19Z pillton: The pole classes found in the paper I linked before allow you to get logarithmic complexity. 2015-10-18T06:04:27Z pillton: If I understand it correctly. 2015-10-18T06:05:00Z beach: I didn't follow the link because it said that the connection is untrusted. 2015-10-18T06:05:20Z pillton: I sent the paper title in a subsequent message. 2015-10-18T06:05:49Z beach: I'll read it later when I am more awake and let you know. 2015-10-18T06:06:01Z pillton: Sure. In your own time. 2015-10-18T06:08:34Z pillton: I will find out soon enough. :) 2015-10-18T06:10:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:10:48Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:10:58Z beach: pillton: It looks like the trees in the paper are stored in memory. 2015-10-18T06:11:23Z pillton: Creating code from that representation is trivial. 2015-10-18T06:11:38Z beach: OK, reading further... 2015-10-18T06:12:35Z pillton: I don't think it is mentioned. For me, the take home point from that paper is identifying the pole types. You can do what you like once you have them. 2015-10-18T06:12:58Z beach: I see. I'll read the paper with that in mind. 2015-10-18T06:15:07Z beach: Since we are on this subject, the point of my paper is not the dispatch itself. That technique has been known for a long time. The main point is how to handle the situation when classes change. If an explicit test for an object being obsolete is needed, it is going to be much slower. The technique in the paper avoids that. 2015-10-18T06:26:15Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:27:44Z pillton: Yep. I'm still yet to sit down and figure out how it handles multiple inheritance and changes in super classes. 2015-10-18T06:28:01Z pillton: I've been more focused on the formation of the tree. 2015-10-18T06:28:19Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:30:24Z resttime: beach: Can you provide a link to the paper? I am interestied in trying to read and understand it. 2015-10-18T06:31:57Z resttime: Oh oops nvm, the netsplit hid the link in the scrollback, found it 2015-10-18T06:32:44Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:36:49Z ku joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:37:23Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:38:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T06:38:21Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:39:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:40:06Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T06:41:14Z wobh: http://www.veelite.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-to-Pole-Types1.pdf 2015-10-18T06:48:08Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T06:48:34Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:48:46Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-18T06:49:26Z beach: resttime: Did you find everything you need? 2015-10-18T06:50:55Z wobh: I'm curious too, but I don't think I have the conversation history that resttime has. Search results on "pole types" have been fun. 2015-10-18T06:51:28Z resttime: beach: Generic dispatch and efficient dispatch pdf's, reading yours right now (at least trying to) 2015-10-18T06:51:57Z beach: OK, let me know if you have any questions. 2015-10-18T06:52:17Z resttime: beach: specialized parameters, do you mean keywords? 2015-10-18T06:52:41Z Bike: as in methods, presumably 2015-10-18T06:52:43Z beach: No, the parameters that have specializers in the methods. 2015-10-18T06:54:21Z beach: resttime: In (defmethod bla (x (y cons)) ...) x is not specialized, but y is. The AMOP uses the terminology "y is specialized to cons". 2015-10-18T06:54:46Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:55:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:55:08Z resttime: Ah I see, so that's what they're called 2015-10-18T06:55:59Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-18T06:56:15Z beach: mop method-specializers 2015-10-18T06:56:16Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-specializers.html 2015-10-18T06:56:50Z resttime: What kind of table compression techniques are there? And I assume a table is just a key-value structure? 2015-10-18T06:57:23Z ku quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-18T06:57:42Z beach: That's a very general question. 2015-10-18T06:57:51Z mac_ifie_ quit 2015-10-18T06:58:19Z beach: In some techniques, they use an N-dimensional matrix, where N is the number of required parameters. 2015-10-18T06:58:37Z beach: That matrix is usually sparse, so standard table-compression techniques apply. 2015-10-18T06:59:02Z beach: But all those techniques store tables in memory. That's a bad idea nowadays. 2015-10-18T06:59:24Z beach: My discriminating automaton is always faster than a single cache miss. 2015-10-18T06:59:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:00:45Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:01:04Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T07:01:18Z beach: And with table-compression techniques, the number of memory accesses increases. 2015-10-18T07:01:29Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:01:29Z beach: So you lose bigtime. 2015-10-18T07:02:28Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-18T07:02:33Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T07:04:26Z resttime: Hmmm, I've got a lot of research to do myself instead of using your time asking these questions one by one 2015-10-18T07:04:50Z resttime: Err, as in I should try to exhaust my own brain power first 2015-10-18T07:05:38Z resttime: Though what's a pole type? I can't find anything on that like wobh 2015-10-18T07:06:51Z beach: Look at the Inria paper. 2015-10-18T07:07:43Z beach: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.43.5458&rep=rep1&type=pdf 2015-10-18T07:08:40Z beach: Section 3. 2015-10-18T07:15:53Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:19:06Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T07:20:15Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-18T07:21:37Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:27:30Z resttime: Darn, sleep is starting to catch me, will have papers fully read tomorrow 2015-10-18T07:27:35Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T07:27:36Z resttime: beach: Thank you for the knowledge 2015-10-18T07:27:44Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-18T07:28:02Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:31:01Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T07:33:00Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:37:18Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T07:42:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:43:30Z wobh: Thank you 2015-10-18T07:44:13Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T07:52:03Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:52:58Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-18T07:57:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T07:59:39Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T07:59:49Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T08:01:51Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:02:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:02:31Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:02:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:03:57Z zarkone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:06:12Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:08:12Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:08:50Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T08:13:01Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-18T08:15:21Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-18T08:15:24Z xrash_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T08:19:08Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:19:34Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-18T08:22:21Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T08:22:55Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-18T08:23:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:25:54Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T08:26:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T08:27:13Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:29:54Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:30:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:37:13Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:37:45Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T08:44:41Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:48:02Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:49:25Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:51:23Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T08:53:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:53:55Z cadadar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T08:54:23Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-18T08:58:41Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:00:34Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:02:26Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:02:45Z fantomik quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T09:03:36Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T09:08:55Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:12:35Z huza joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:17:15Z Whitesquall joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:17:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:19:12Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:20:35Z otwieracz: Is there something like case, but which can compare strings? 2015-10-18T09:21:03Z otwieracz: (case "FOO" ("FOO" 'foo) (otherwise 'bar)) 2015-10-18T09:21:14Z Shinmera: There's a string-case system on QL. 2015-10-18T09:21:35Z otwieracz: OK, so I have to cond. 2015-10-18T09:21:47Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:26:22Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T09:26:51Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:31:04Z scymtym: otwieracz: you can also use (alexandria:switch (THING :test #'string=) ("string" …) …) 2015-10-18T09:31:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:32:17Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157025 – that's how I done it. 2015-10-18T09:32:27Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T09:33:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:36:07Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:36:47Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:38:59Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T09:40:38Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-18T09:43:12Z Coqatrice joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:44:34Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T09:50:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:55:38Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-18T09:57:30Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:00:46Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:01:38Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:02:19Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:03:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-18T10:03:32Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:03:48Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:05:36Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T10:07:28Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:09:40Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:13:15Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T10:15:03Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:15:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T10:18:46Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:19:55Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:22:37Z yggds quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T10:24:11Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:24:15Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:26:13Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:26:42Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T10:27:58Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:28:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:28:53Z tkd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:29:05Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:30:35Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:35:39Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:35:48Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:37:40Z gucore joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:39:59Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:40:20Z wobh joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:40:32Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:41:38Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:45:06Z wobh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T10:48:59Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-18T10:49:03Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T10:58:21Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T10:59:07Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:00:13Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:09:08Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T11:10:32Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:12:44Z phoe_krk: pjb: I got it the moment I realized what I was doing. thanks! 2015-10-18T11:14:08Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:15:46Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-18T11:16:48Z phoe_krk: pjb; I let a local variable be named var and I made a push call on a. 2015-10-18T11:18:03Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:21:50Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:31:36Z phoe_krk: pjb: somehow it only worked when I pulled the value out of the let. I'll remember that for the future. 2015-10-18T11:32:43Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-10-18T11:39:35Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:42:06Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T11:42:09Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T11:43:24Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T11:44:53Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T11:49:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:49:00Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-18T11:49:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:50:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:51:23Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:52:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:53:13Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-18T11:53:49Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T11:53:51Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:54:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:58:20Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T11:59:06Z Coqatrice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-18T12:01:06Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:05:54Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:07:10Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:07:33Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-18T12:08:02Z HammyJammy joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:08:10Z JammyHammy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:10:02Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:10:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:18:43Z hitecnologys: Err, can anyone try running: (ql:quickload :stmx) (make-instance 'stmx.util:tport :channel (make-instance 'stmx.util:tchannel))? 2015-10-18T12:19:18Z hitecnologys: It fails on three out of four completely independent machines I tried it on. 2015-10-18T12:20:37Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:22:05Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:25:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:28:45Z Wasdaf: hitecnologys: seems to work for me 2015-10-18T12:29:38Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-18T12:29:48Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:30:34Z hitecnologys: Wasdaf: hmm, interesting. Cloud you tell me what type does slot FRONT in util/tchannel.lisp has (line 63) as well? 2015-10-18T12:31:38Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:33:39Z Wasdaf: (front :type cons :accessor front-of) 2015-10-18T12:33:53Z hitecnologys: Thanks. 2015-10-18T12:33:59Z hitecnologys: It doesn't make any sense. 2015-10-18T12:34:04Z hitecnologys: The sources are all identical. 2015-10-18T12:35:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:35:58Z vydd: # ...so, works on osx 10.11, sbcl 1.2.15 2015-10-18T12:38:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T12:39:39Z hitecnologys: Hmm. Could you also try evaluating (subtypep 'stmx.util:tcons 'stmx:tvar)? 2015-10-18T12:41:32Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:41:35Z Wasdaf: (subtypep 'stmx.util:tcons 2015-10-18T12:41:36Z Wasdaf: 'stmx:tvar) 2015-10-18T12:41:36Z Wasdaf: NIL 2015-10-18T12:41:36Z Wasdaf: T 2015-10-18T12:41:47Z hitecnologys: … 2015-10-18T12:41:53Z hitecnologys: It's all the same. 2015-10-18T12:43:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:45:10Z __uu__ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:45:16Z hitecnologys: Alright, I give up. =P Thanks for help, Wasdaf and vydd. 2015-10-18T12:46:56Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:47:31Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:49:06Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:51:05Z mood_ is now known as mood 2015-10-18T12:51:24Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:52:59Z hitecnologys: Oh well, recompiled INITIALIZE-INSTANCE for TPORT and it started working. =P 2015-10-18T12:53:03Z hitecnologys: Excellent. 2015-10-18T12:55:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T12:56:18Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T12:59:17Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:00:00Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:00:47Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:12:47Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:12:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T13:15:11Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T13:15:34Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:15:56Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T13:16:12Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:18:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:19:44Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:21:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:24:49Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:27:14Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:30:06Z _sjs_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:30:49Z zarkone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:31:27Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:33:09Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:33:41Z stenofilen joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:35:32Z _sjs_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:36:40Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:36:53Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:39:19Z __uu__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:43:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T13:43:23Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T13:47:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:48:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T13:52:15Z _sjs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T13:54:11Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-18T13:59:13Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T14:01:32Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T14:02:27Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:03:58Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:05:01Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T14:06:22Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:17:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:17:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:20:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T14:24:09Z ym joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:25:51Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:26:54Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:27:03Z tuxbrave_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:27:46Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T14:27:54Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:28:22Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:28:26Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T14:28:46Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T14:29:10Z Uptime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T14:31:19Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-18T14:31:59Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 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1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-18T14:54:25Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:57:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:57:27Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:58:09Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-18T14:58:37Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:59:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T14:59:46Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:00:00Z sdothum quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T15:02:51Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T15:05:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:06:06Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T15:08:52Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:09:15Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:10:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:13:04Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:13:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:13:41Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:18:14Z tuxbrave_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T15:20:02Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:20:06Z emaczen quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T15:20:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T15:21:07Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:25:12Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:25:40Z fantomik quit (Quit: fantomik) 2015-10-18T15:26:13Z resttime: I should read the entire CLHS at somepoint 2015-10-18T15:27:28Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2015-10-18T15:27:28Z brucem joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:27:56Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:29:35Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:31:25Z Xach: resttime: I enjoyed reading CLTL2 front to back. Partly it was because it was a physical book, and partly because the prose is less dry. 2015-10-18T15:31:40Z Xach: The change marks were a little annoying, but not insurmountable 2015-10-18T15:31:43Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-18T15:33:50Z resttime: Xach: Thanks for the recommendation I found it here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html 2015-10-18T15:35:41Z Xach: It's also easy to get cheaply as a real physical book. 2015-10-18T15:35:46Z Xach: (well, depending on where you live) 2015-10-18T15:35:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T15:36:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:37:42Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T15:38:08Z resttime: Oh shit, there are libraries with these kinds of books where I'm at 2015-10-18T15:38:31Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:39:56Z resttime: I've barely visited them at all... eveything I need is here I think... 2015-10-18T15:41:07Z resttime: I feel terrible, I've been neglecting them 2015-10-18T15:41:18Z resttime: I have to change that 2015-10-18T15:42:07Z mindCrime_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-18T15:43:35Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T15:44:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:44:33Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T15:45:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T15:45:23Z Wasdaf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-18T15:49:22Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:51:01Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T15:56:21Z jason_m: I haven't had a lot of luck finding books at my public library. Stuck out on SICP, PAIP, and and CLTL2. 2015-10-18T15:56:29Z jason_m: Struck out* 2015-10-18T15:56:45Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-18T15:57:22Z jason_m: I thought the Chicago public library system would at least be good for PAIP, but no. 2015-10-18T16:01:53Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:01:53Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:02:16Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:02:35Z resttime: Goodness gracious I found Erik Naggum's library http://www.librarything.com/catalog.php?view=nocebo 2015-10-18T16:05:13Z resttime: Well if I ever needed a reading list in general there it is 2015-10-18T16:05:16Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:05:37Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:08:43Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:10:02Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:11:48Z zarkone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:12:29Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-18T16:13:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:13:29Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:14:26Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:15:05Z Guest87684 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:15:23Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:15:42Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:16:21Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/books/ has a mirror of sorts 2015-10-18T16:16:31Z Xach: oh, snap, the book search is broken. 2015-10-18T16:16:48Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:18:11Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:18:43Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:20:58Z loke_`: Re 2015-10-18T16:21:00Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:26:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:27:45Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:33:44Z jason_m: Hmm, is the ~t format directive supposed to emit a tab? Because it looks like I'm getting a space. (sbcl) 2015-10-18T16:33:46Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:34:50Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:35:00Z jason_m: FORMS> (char-code (elt (format nil "~t") 0)) 2015-10-18T16:35:01Z jason_m: 32 2015-10-18T16:35:01Z jason_m: FORMS> (char-code #\space) 2015-10-18T16:35:01Z jason_m: 32 2015-10-18T16:35:01Z jason_m: FORMS> (char-code #\tab) 2015-10-18T16:35:01Z jason_m: 9 2015-10-18T16:35:43Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T16:37:36Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T16:37:43Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:38:39Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:38:39Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:41:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T16:41:42Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:41:45Z nyef: clhs ~t 2015-10-18T16:41:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 2015-10-18T16:42:50Z nyef: jason_m: Spaces only, it appears. 2015-10-18T16:43:20Z nyef: Note that this is predicated on a fixed-character-width output device. 2015-10-18T16:45:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:46:44Z duallist joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:47:31Z jason_m: Ah, thanks nyef. Looks like I can achieve a tab character with (format t "~c" #\tab) 2015-10-18T16:47:50Z nyef: Yes, or even embed a literal tab character in the control string. 2015-10-18T16:48:26Z duallist quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T16:49:06Z loke_`: jason_m: Or, simply (write-char #\Tab) 2015-10-18T16:51:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T16:52:01Z foom joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:52:08Z jason_m: loke_`: I'm trying to output some simple tab delimited output, so one call for format would be nice. 2015-10-18T16:56:38Z loke_`: jason_m: if you want pretty-printed by column you can use ~T 2015-10-18T16:56:48Z loke_`: But it won't be actual tab characters 2015-10-18T16:57:13Z loke_`: Or, something like: 2015-10-18T16:57:41Z jason_m: loke_`: That's what I tried first, but i need to to be a tab (or at least, some delimiter other than space) 2015-10-18T16:58:26Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-18T16:58:27Z loke_`: (format t #.(format nil "~~{~~a~c~~}" #\Tab) row) 2015-10-18T16:58:56Z jason_m: nyef: How do I put the literal tab character into the control string without using a directive like ~c? Haven't been able to figure it out. 2015-10-18T16:59:09Z loke_`: jason_m: That's what my last example does 2015-10-18T16:59:21Z nyef: Do you not have a text editor and a tab key? 2015-10-18T16:59:38Z loke_`: nyef: That's not good since copy&paste often screw that up 2015-10-18T16:59:47Z jason_m: nyef: I have those things! I didn't even think to try just pressing tab. 2015-10-18T17:00:05Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:00:14Z nyef: loke_`: If copy/paste screws it up, then copy/paste need fixing. 2015-10-18T17:00:24Z jason_m: hmm, well slime is trying to auto complete my string when i press tab 2015-10-18T17:00:33Z jason_m: at least in the repl 2015-10-18T17:00:33Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:00:35Z ralt: hi 2015-10-18T17:01:55Z loke_`: nyef: Right. But copy&paste is already screwed up, and unless you intend to fix all the broken terminals out there I'd sueggest you avoid explicit significant tabs in source files. 2015-10-18T17:02:08Z loke_`: jason_m: You can get around that with C-q TAB 2015-10-18T17:03:02Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:04:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:04:28Z mea-culp` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T17:08:28Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-10-18T17:09:35Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:10:47Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:11:21Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:14:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:17:55Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:18:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:18:46Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:21:07Z zarkone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:29:35Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:29:43Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:29:57Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:30:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:31:19Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:32:09Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:37:04Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T17:38:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:40:52Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:40:59Z scymtym quit (Quit: scymtym) 2015-10-18T17:41:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:41:18Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T17:43:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:43:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-18T17:43:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:44:39Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:45:51Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:50:56Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T17:54:22Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T17:54:57Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-18T17:55:38Z sepi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T17:58:22Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:02:56Z nessundorma joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:06:10Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T18:06:23Z sepi joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:07:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:12:07Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:17:01Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:18:58Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-18T18:37:47Z Cthulhux`: define "a good config" :-) 2015-10-18T18:37:53Z resttime: axion: Grab Paredit and if you want to keep using VIM bindings get EVIL too 2015-10-18T18:38:16Z Cthulhux`: don't start with evil, break with your habits 2015-10-18T18:38:29Z axion: yeah i'd like to just use emacs bindings 2015-10-18T18:38:37Z resttime: Err, naturally SLIME too 2015-10-18T18:38:55Z Cthulhux`: axion, maybe an existing config could help? here's mine: https://github.com/dertuxmalwieder/My-Emacs-config/blob/master/.emacs 2015-10-18T18:39:03Z Cthulhux`: somewhere is SLIME in it. 2015-10-18T18:39:06Z Cthulhux`: (with comments) 2015-10-18T18:39:23Z axion: thanks, i'll take a look. 2015-10-18T18:39:36Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:39:37Z Cthulhux`: it auto-installs a couple of packages. 2015-10-18T18:40:04Z Shinmera: Mine's at https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs 2015-10-18T18:41:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:42:58Z resttime: Hmmm, I should try use emacs bindings for text editing again, change of pace 2015-10-18T18:43:04Z axion: great 2015-10-18T18:43:48Z axion: do i have to install anything else besides emacs to get slime etc working? with vim, slime/paredit/etc is contained in a single plugin 2015-10-18T18:44:15Z resttime: Nope 2015-10-18T18:44:32Z Cthulhux`: slime works OOTB 2015-10-18T18:44:46Z Cthulhux`: well, you'll need to specify the binary of your lisp interpreter 2015-10-18T18:44:49Z Cthulhux`: that's all 2015-10-18T18:44:58Z axion: ok 2015-10-18T18:45:14Z resttime: I think slimv required python if I can recall long time ago, Emacs is a proper OS 2015-10-18T18:45:26Z resttime: I mean text editor ;) 2015-10-18T18:45:34Z Cthulhux`: emacs is a lisp machine 2015-10-18T18:45:40Z Cthulhux`: not an editor nor an os 2015-10-18T18:45:40Z Cthulhux`: ;-) 2015-10-18T18:45:54Z Cthulhux`: it just happens to have a good editor plug-in. 2015-10-18T18:46:51Z Cthulhux`: btw. axion why do you want to leave vim? 2015-10-18T18:47:02Z lvh_ is now known as lvh 2015-10-18T18:47:23Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T18:47:24Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:48:28Z axion: Cthulhux`: slimv has some bugs (i commited a few fixes but many more left), and the maintainer isn't very active. also, i tend to restart my image a lot because of that and other reasons. i'd like to have an image running remotely, too, which is not possible with slimv. 2015-10-18T18:48:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:49:03Z Cthulhux`: ah, ok. so it's just slimv, not vim, which makes problems? hm.- 2015-10-18T18:49:11Z axion: i'd likely be using vim for general editing of text/other languages. i want to setup emacs as my lisp environment 2015-10-18T18:50:32Z Cthulhux`: you probably won 2015-10-18T18:50:34Z Cthulhux`: 't :-) 2015-10-18T18:50:41Z axion: i mostly work from cli though, so i'd bne using emacs -nw 2015-10-18T18:51:16Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:51:38Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-10-18T18:53:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T18:54:54Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T18:55:20Z stenofilen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T18:55:39Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T18:58:47Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:01:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:03:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:04:16Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:06:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T19:07:04Z lisp323 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:07:23Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:08:28Z lisp323 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T19:08:46Z axion: seems i was missing a lot 2015-10-18T19:08:47Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-18T19:08:51Z Cthulhux`: how? 2015-10-18T19:09:04Z akkad: cli... for editing wow 2015-10-18T19:09:22Z axion: lots of useful emacs packages 2015-10-18T19:09:39Z axion: akkad: i usually dev at work over an ssh connection to my home running image 2015-10-18T19:10:20Z Shinmera: X over SSH is still a possibility. 2015-10-18T19:11:08Z resttime: Tramp is pretty nice, I also like remote SLIME (not sure if possible in slimv) 2015-10-18T19:11:09Z axion: Shinmera: also, i am pretty minimal. the only gui app i use is a web browser 2015-10-18T19:11:28Z Shinmera: And you could just tunnel swank too. 2015-10-18T19:11:40Z Shinmera: 's what I usually do when I debug my webservers. 2015-10-18T19:12:26Z Shinmera: axion: There's more than one way to be 'minimal'. 2015-10-18T19:12:30Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:12:31Z resttime: Me too, felt much better than running the emacs instance on the remote server 2015-10-18T19:13:06Z Shinmera: The trouble with tunnelling swank is fixing xref path translations 2015-10-18T19:13:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:13:20Z Shinmera: There's a way to do that, but I never bothered to find out how. 2015-10-18T19:14:36Z axion: ah, well, i don't like gui apps mostly, or the mouse :) 2015-10-18T19:14:56Z resttime: Oh yeah, ran into that issue trying to load a file C-c C-l I think 2015-10-18T19:15:36Z Shinmera: I'm not a fan of the mouse either but CLI apps usually are just hideous. For that reason alone refusing to run things as GUI seems like an irresponsible decision to me. 2015-10-18T19:15:38Z axion: my entire desktop runs using less than 150mb of ram and i like that 2015-10-18T19:16:00Z Shinmera: Do you only have 1Gb of RAM on your machine or something 2015-10-18T19:16:14Z Fare: ASDF 3.1.6 is out... who can update the /topic ? 2015-10-18T19:16:25Z axion: on my most used device, yes, it's a netbook 2015-10-18T19:16:41Z resttime: axion: You might like Pentadactyl if you use firefox and don't already have something like it 2015-10-18T19:16:50Z axion: i cannot stand firefox 2015-10-18T19:17:21Z Cthulhux`: it's still the best and least-bloated browser 2015-10-18T19:17:29Z axion: i prefer uzbl for that 2015-10-18T19:17:29Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:17:47Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:19:14Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-18T19:20:13Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T19:20:38Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:21:14Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:21:59Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T19:25:36Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T19:26:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:26:34Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:32:33Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:36:55Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T19:38:16Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T19:39:21Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T19:40:14Z jlarocco_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:42:30Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:43:17Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:44:00Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:45:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:47:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:47:53Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:48:34Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:49:55Z Viaken: vimb is fairly nice 2015-10-18T19:50:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:50:13Z Viaken: Development is still active, too. 2015-10-18T19:50:21Z Viaken: Not that uzbl's isn't. 2015-10-18T19:51:31Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T19:52:36Z nowhereman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T19:52:54Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:53:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:54:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:55:38Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T19:58:25Z axion: Viaken: thanks, i'll take a look later 2015-10-18T19:58:44Z axion: Shinmera: your config files are great. learning a bunch about emacs reading it 2015-10-18T19:58:46Z axion: thanks 2015-10-18T19:59:02Z Shinmera: My elisp knowledge is extremely minimal. 2015-10-18T19:59:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-18T19:59:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:01:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:01:46Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T20:02:05Z mobius-eng quit 2015-10-18T20:04:43Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:08:48Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:09:37Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T20:11:01Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T20:11:41Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:12:21Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T20:15:48Z YBa2Cu3O7 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:23:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:24:40Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T20:25:46Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:25:50Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:27:35Z vydd quit 2015-10-18T20:27:57Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:32:26Z gucore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:32:53Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:37:49Z phax joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:39:43Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T20:40:01Z hydan` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:40:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:43:17Z YBa2Cu3O7 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-18T20:44:42Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T20:46:00Z malice` joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:47:48Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:48:29Z DANtheBE- is now known as DANtheBEASTman 2015-10-18T20:49:54Z ekpyrotic joined #lisp 2015-10-18T20:54:48Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T20:58:34Z ekpyrotic quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-18T20:58:56Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:00:46Z quasus: axion: how do you mean it's not possible to use slimv with a remote lisp? 2015-10-18T21:05:19Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:07:02Z Whitesquall quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:09:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:10:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:11:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T21:11:59Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:12:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:12:42Z nowhereman quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-18T21:15:25Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:16:21Z malice`: Hello, how can I make LOOP collect into adjustable vector? 2015-10-18T21:16:55Z Shinmera: You can't. 2015-10-18T21:17:13Z malice`: Too bad. 2015-10-18T21:18:47Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T21:18:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:19:03Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:20:37Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:24:12Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T21:24:13Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T21:24:47Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T21:26:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Couldn't you use DO to append to the adjustable vector? 2015-10-18T21:26:55Z Shinmera: Sure you can. But that's not COLLECT. 2015-10-18T21:27:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah 2015-10-18T21:27:46Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:28:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just suggesting a way to have something like teh effect malice` wants. Or they could swithc to iterate 2015-10-18T21:28:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/swithc/switch 2015-10-18T21:29:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T21:29:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:31:15Z nyef: You could LOOP COLLECT and then use the result as the :initial-contents for a MAKE-VECTOR :ADJUSTABLE T...? 2015-10-18T21:31:22Z Shinmera: To get the same effect as COLLECT you need (loop with vec = (make-array 0 :adjustable T :fill-pointer T) .. do (vector-push-extend el vec) finally (return vec)) which is quite a bit more wordy than just (loop .. collect el). 2015-10-18T21:33:22Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:33:34Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:35:40Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:38:38Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T21:38:42Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T21:38:53Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:42:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:46:27Z malice`: Yeah, I have even more options than listed here, but I was asking if collect could return vectro 2015-10-18T21:52:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:52:05Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-18T21:52:46Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-18T21:53:34Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:53:38Z Mandus joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:55:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T21:56:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-18T21:57:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T22:00:02Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-18T22:00:10Z axion: quasus: yeah it seems remote support has been added a few years ago 2015-10-18T22:00:23Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:00:50Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T22:02:53Z Mandus joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:04:01Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:04:45Z malice`: Okay, one more question. I'm trying to write print-object method: http://ix.io/lts 2015-10-18T22:05:05Z malice`: However, this does not work, and I'm not sure why. I've never printed objects whose slots were vectors 2015-10-18T22:05:18Z malice`: The error says that slot is missing... 2015-10-18T22:05:37Z Shinmera: with-slots accesses slots, not accessors. 2015-10-18T22:05:58Z Shinmera: either use with-accessors, change the slot name to be the same, or fix the with-slots form to use the slot name. 2015-10-18T22:06:10Z malice`: oh boy 2015-10-18T22:06:28Z malice`: I just missed that I named it "neurons"... Thanks a lot! 2015-10-18T22:06:34Z malice`: I guess I'm tired. 2015-10-18T22:06:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:09:39Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T22:10:04Z _sjs` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:11:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs with-accessors 2015-10-18T22:11:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm 2015-10-18T22:15:30Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:17:11Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:20:04Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:21:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:22:01Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:24:12Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T22:25:37Z axion: Shinmera: C-M-q and some other bindings aren't working with your config. Any ideas? 2015-10-18T22:26:22Z Shinmera: I only override keys in https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-keys.el 2015-10-18T22:26:42Z Shinmera: C-M-q isn't on my list of overrides, so I don't know. 2015-10-18T22:26:43Z malice` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:26:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T22:27:15Z axion: a lot of C-M keys arent working actually 2015-10-18T22:27:33Z Shinmera: You sure that isn't just your terminal configuration screwing up? 2015-10-18T22:27:44Z axion: i am actually trying in emacs gui 2015-10-18T22:27:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-18T22:28:05Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:28:06Z Shinmera: Ok. Well- I don't know then. As I said, I'm far from an emacs expert. I work on a need-to-know basis with it right now. 2015-10-18T22:28:28Z axion: right now i just need to know how to navigate/manipulate sexps 2015-10-18T22:29:03Z Shinmera: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/11 might help with that 2015-10-18T22:31:42Z fantomik quit (Quit: fantomik) 2015-10-18T22:36:25Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T22:38:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:40:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:40:45Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-18T22:40:46Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:41:01Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:43:49Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:46:46Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T22:47:09Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T22:56:25Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:57:36Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T22:57:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-18T22:59:06Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-18T22:59:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:03:29Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:04:23Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:05:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:05:13Z someone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:06:24Z someone quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-18T23:06:24Z someone_ is now known as someone 2015-10-18T23:06:32Z someon joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:06:48Z someon quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-18T23:07:11Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T23:07:24Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:08:35Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:14:41Z nikki93 quit 2015-10-18T23:15:51Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-18T23:16:45Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-18T23:19:26Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:19:47Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T23:20:01Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:20:35Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:21:13Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-18T23:22:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:23:47Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T23:23:58Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T23:30:04Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:30:21Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:34:54Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:40:22Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-18T23:51:56Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:52:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-18T23:53:03Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-18T23:55:11Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-18T23:55:39Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:57:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-18T23:58:57Z Coqatrice joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:07:11Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-19T00:09:26Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T00:11:30Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:15:16Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:15:58Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:16:45Z phoe_krk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T00:20:48Z goglosh quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-19T00:25:01Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:27:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: would you consider moving the ubiquitous central directory out of .config/common-lisp? 2015-10-19T00:28:04Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-19T00:29:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. to just .config/ubiquitous? 2015-10-19T00:32:06Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:32:24Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T00:35:50Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T00:38:30Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-19T00:43:58Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:45:53Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T00:46:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T00:47:19Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T00:47:20Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:48:56Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-19T00:55:02Z Fare: asdf 3.1.5 and 3.1.6 should make that easier 2015-10-19T00:55:14Z Fare: they have functions for that in uiop/configuration.lisp 2015-10-19T00:56:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:00:44Z pjb: jasom: it depends on the device. On a TTY with fixed column tabulation positions, a CL implementation would definitely use TAB control codes to move the carriage to the right column. 2015-10-19T01:00:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:01:10Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:01:17Z pjb: jasom: on an ECMA-048 terminal, it could use some escape sequence to skip directly to the position. 2015-10-19T01:01:18Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:02:49Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:03:08Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:04:29Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:04:39Z SHODAN quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:07:39Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:08:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:10:55Z resttime: pjb: Thanks for the link, minion did not remind me but I found it in the logs and read a lot of the papers 2015-10-19T01:11:02Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:12:07Z resttime: I thought it was pretty interesting how Common Lisp embodies a lot of the ideas which were written. 2015-10-19T01:12:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2015-10-19T01:13:49Z resttime: And I think I understand a lot more why I like Common Lisp. 2015-10-19T01:13:52Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:14:25Z resttime: Understanding coming from his papers about learning that is. 2015-10-19T01:15:00Z resttime: Err and where the ideas embodied are more on the technical ones 2015-10-19T01:15:06Z resttime: s/on/from 2015-10-19T01:15:53Z resttime: I had a really cool ap comp sci teacher a few years ago who introduced me to lisp. 2015-10-19T01:16:45Z resttime: He let me do anything in his class and actually seemed to care. 2015-10-19T01:17:37Z resttime: One of the only classes I ever took that allowed that, and I went on the write CFFI bindings because I wanted to write a game. 2015-10-19T01:18:26Z resttime: Every other kid was learning Java hehehehe 2015-10-19T01:18:27Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-19T01:19:15Z resttime: (I kinda already "knew" Java/C/C++/etc.) 2015-10-19T01:20:30Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:23:07Z resttime: If there's any educator in here who knows a strange kid, try introducing lisp to that person 2015-10-19T01:23:26Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:23:44Z resttime: Err and by "strange" I mean a kid who has the "kind of mind" that lisp attracts 2015-10-19T01:24:14Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-19T01:24:50Z Fare: resttime: which papers? 2015-10-19T01:25:46Z resttime: Fare: http://vpri.org/html/writings.php 2015-10-19T01:26:27Z resttime: Mixture of papers on Squeak, teaching kids, and things on objects 2015-10-19T01:31:52Z ssake_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:32:11Z ssake_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:35:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:36:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-19T01:39:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T01:42:42Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ESR regretted writting reposurgeon in python too; he would have rather written in lisp. 2015-10-19T02:26:08Z pjb: About the only early error you can make in a programming project, is to choose a different language than Lisp. Anything else is inconsequential and can easily be corrected during the project. 2015-10-19T02:26:20Z pjb: (once you started in lisp). 2015-10-19T02:28:44Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-19T02:29:23Z Fare: Racket is decent, too. 2015-10-19T02:30:28Z pjb: I guess, if you know it. Do they have as many libraries as in quicklisp? 2015-10-19T02:30:39Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-19T02:35:02Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-19T02:43:42Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T02:44:59Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-19T02:48:08Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T03:41:39Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:42:58Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:45:28Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:45:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-19T03:46:57Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:49:06Z Coqatrice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-19T03:50:15Z samssammerz: Happy morning beach. 2015-10-19T03:51:18Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-19T03:51:34Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-19T03:55:16Z beach: samssammerz: You must be new here. I don't recognize your nick. 2015-10-19T03:56:39Z samssammerz: Indeed. 2015-10-19T03:57:11Z aap joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:57:42Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T03:58:00Z beach: Are you a Common Lisp newbie? 2015-10-19T03:58:22Z aap_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T03:59:15Z zarkone joined #lisp 2015-10-19T03:59:51Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-19T04:00:18Z beach: Hey nyef! Still helping out with Clasp? 2015-10-19T04:00:57Z nyef: Getting ready to head home, at which point I'll be able to rebuild my computer with more RAM, which should make working on Clasp a little easier. 2015-10-19T04:01:30Z nyef: Also planning on switching disks about, so I should get SATA speeds instead of USB2 speeds. 2015-10-19T04:01:42Z samssammerz: beach, Yes, I am. I come from a C/Python background and am starting to explore Lisp and Scheme. 2015-10-19T04:02:11Z beach: nyef: Ah, yes. Building Clasp takes a lot of resources. 2015-10-19T04:02:20Z beach: samssammerz: Great! Welcome to #lisp. 2015-10-19T04:02:43Z nyef: With any luck, I'll also be able to do a build this week, and maybe even spare some project bandwidth to try to figure out what the current situation with the bclasp compiler is. 2015-10-19T04:03:02Z samssammerz: beach, Thanks :) 2015-10-19T04:03:37Z beach: nyef: I saw in the logs a remark from drmeister saying something "I am sick and tired of the bclasp compiler". 2015-10-19T04:03:44Z beach: Not sure how to interpret that. 2015-10-19T04:03:56Z nyef: I'm probably going to be offline from until your tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon/evening. 2015-10-19T04:04:03Z drmeister: Just that. 2015-10-19T04:04:10Z beach: nyef: Sure. 2015-10-19T04:04:16Z beach: Hello drmeister 2015-10-19T04:04:39Z drmeister: Hello 2015-10-19T04:04:48Z beach: drmeister: remove-useless-instructions is a simple version of dead-code elimination. 2015-10-19T04:05:05Z beach: It works by removing instructions without side effects that produce results that are nowhere used. 2015-10-19T04:05:41Z drmeister: Will it remove the closure wrapped around a method-lambda? 2015-10-19T04:05:53Z beach: As it turns out, the instruction generating a closure of a local function that is not called falls into that category. 2015-10-19T04:06:21Z drmeister: Ok, I have to get it working then. 2015-10-19T04:06:31Z nyef: Not called, or not called-or-escaped? 2015-10-19T04:06:48Z drmeister: I'm still trying to get to that point. But everything I do has a multiple hour delay 2015-10-19T04:07:02Z drmeister: Hence the "I'm sick and tired of the bclasp compiler" 2015-10-19T04:07:10Z beach: I designed it so that you would not have more consing as a result of my advice to leave the CALL-NEXT-METHOD and NEXT-METHOD-P local functions in there. 2015-10-19T04:07:33Z beach: nyef: Not used at all. 2015-10-19T04:07:40Z nyef: Okay, good. 2015-10-19T04:07:47Z beach: As in, not even referred to. 2015-10-19T04:08:11Z beach: It is a very simple version of dead-code elimination with a simplistic notion of "dead". 2015-10-19T04:09:09Z beach: It is not the ultimate dead-code elimination that I plan to write. I wrote it as a temporary solution so as not to being accused of giving advice leading to more consing. 2015-10-19T04:09:21Z beach: so as not to be? 2015-10-19T04:09:26Z beach: Too early for me. 2015-10-19T04:12:18Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:12:35Z nyef: so as to not be? 2015-10-19T04:13:24Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:13:43Z beach: I wrote it as a temporary solution, in order not to be accused of giving advice leading to more consing. Something like that. 2015-10-19T04:14:18Z nyef: There you go. 2015-10-19T04:15:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:17:44Z beach: drmeister: It is still possible for your generic dispatch to allocate memory. The AMOP says that, by default, the effective method is called with a list of the arguments to the generic function. Creating that list requires consing. 2015-10-19T04:17:51Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:18:16Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-19T04:18:46Z drmeister: Perhaps - but there is more consing going on than necessary 2015-10-19T04:18:48Z beach: drmeister: After looking briefly on some of the ECL code for calling generic functions, I can tell that they did not spend much time optimizing that code. 2015-10-19T04:19:53Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:20:22Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:22:13Z drmeister: This is the problem: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/testing/src/lisp/kernel/clos/method.lsp#L197 2015-10-19T04:23:15Z drmeister: The ECL code walks the form to figure out if call-next-method or next-method-p calls are in closures and if they are then it puts the method-lambda into a closure. 2015-10-19T04:23:35Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:24:16Z drmeister: I'm not walking the form anymore because of our previous discussion. So the method-lambda is always being wrapped in a closure. 2015-10-19T04:24:39Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:24:45Z beach: One point of view, at least in the past, is that generic functions are much less frequent than ordinary functions, so there is no point in optimizing generic dispatch. I have the opposite (sort of) point of view. In order to encourage the use of more generic functions (for software-engineering reasons), I need to make generic dispatch as fast as possible. 2015-10-19T04:24:46Z beach: drmeister: What is the problem with that? 2015-10-19T04:24:50Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:25:01Z beach` joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:25:22Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-19T04:25:25Z beach` is now known as beach 2015-10-19T04:25:55Z drmeister: I'm using Cleavir - so I need to make generic dispatch as fast as possible. 2015-10-19T04:27:07Z beach: Yes, I wrote Cleavir with those software-engineering considerations in mind. It was kind of necessary in order to make it adaptable to different clients. 2015-10-19T04:28:05Z drmeister: It's fine - it just needs to be fast 2015-10-19T04:29:24Z beach: Either way, using a code walker to remove those local functions is a kludge. There needs to be a phase of dead-code elimination in there anyway, and if done right, it should remove those functions. 2015-10-19T04:29:29Z nyef: beach: This sounds like a variation of "if some process is slow and time-consuming, do it as often as possible." 2015-10-19T04:30:13Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:30:14Z beach: nyef: Never saw that one. Is it a famous quotation? 2015-10-19T04:33:09Z nyef: Probably not. It's a variation of the justification for how often Azul's pauseless GC does a full heap flip. 2015-10-19T04:33:46Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T04:34:26Z beach: I see. 2015-10-19T04:36:29Z beach: I sure hope that what I wrote is not in any way equivalent to that. 2015-10-19T04:36:43Z beach` joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:36:54Z pjb` joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:36:58Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-10-19T04:37:01Z beach` is now known as beach 2015-10-19T04:37:12Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T04:38:25Z nyef: It's the attitude. Take something that is typically expensive and thus avoided on performance grounds, and arrange to do it _all the time_, and then optimize the heck out of it. 2015-10-19T04:38:51Z beach: Ah, that makes more sense. 2015-10-19T04:39:30Z beach: You left out the last step before. 2015-10-19T04:41:12Z nyef: Well, it's sort of implied. What gets done often, often gets done faster. 2015-10-19T04:41:23Z Fare: beach: I don't remember who at the last boston lisp dinner was mentioning how stalin was generating object and frame layouts specifically for the classes and frame kinds used in the program after optimization, including GC scanning code for them. 2015-10-19T04:41:41Z |3b| has heard similar advice for programming for browsers: don't code around the limitations of the browser VMs, write "nice" code and complain loudly when it runs slowly 2015-10-19T04:41:57Z Fare: beach: he did that in a static setting, but in a dynamic setting, there could be a meta-gc protocol for that. 2015-10-19T04:42:33Z beach: Fare: Interesting idea. 2015-10-19T04:42:37Z nyef: |3b|: That sucks. I'm talking about cases where you actually do the optimization work yourself, not foist it off onto other people. 2015-10-19T04:43:02Z nyef: Fare: I don't remember that conversation, it must have been down your end of the table. 2015-10-19T04:43:33Z |3b|: nyef: well, the people are optimizing anyway, so better for them to be optimizing "nice" code than horrible code optimized for a different browser :) 2015-10-19T04:44:09Z |3b| was also thinking of "loud complaints" in the form of nice bug reports with good test cases though, not completely dumping the work elsewhere 2015-10-19T04:44:11Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:45:03Z |3b|: but yeah, it is more practical when you can actually do the work yourself 2015-10-19T04:46:33Z |3b|: and in practice with browsers you need to ship the ugly code anyway since people won't in general have the fix fast enough 2015-10-19T04:46:47Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:46:53Z Zhivago: Just don't support IE. :) 2015-10-19T04:48:50Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:49:54Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:54:20Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:55:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:56:19Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T04:56:49Z luis joined #lisp 2015-10-19T04:57:16Z Vulfe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T04:58:47Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-19T04:59:40Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:01:21Z beach: drmeister: Still here? 2015-10-19T05:01:34Z drmeister: Yes 2015-10-19T05:01:49Z beach: drmeister: I would appreciate if you would supply a comparison between performance (time, consing) before and after using remove-useless-instructions. 2015-10-19T05:02:03Z beach: It doesn't have to be very precise. 2015-10-19T05:02:03Z drmeister: I'd just like to get it working first. 2015-10-19T05:02:05Z beach: Just and idea. 2015-10-19T05:02:12Z drmeister: Sure 2015-10-19T05:02:19Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-19T05:02:27Z drmeister: But first I have to get Slime to work with bclasp 2015-10-19T05:02:47Z drmeister: To do that I have to get forms that look like ((lambda (...) ...) ...) to compile in bclasp 2015-10-19T05:03:29Z beach: Sure. I just meant that if you can avoid making more than one change so that we know where to attribute performance improvements, that would be great. 2015-10-19T05:03:46Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:03:59Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:06:50Z luis joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:07:01Z drmeister: How are calls like ((lambda (x) (print x)) 1) implemented? 2015-10-19T05:08:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:09:06Z drmeister: I can compile the lambda to a function pointer - I'm not sure what to do with it after that. 2015-10-19T05:09:29Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-19T05:09:30Z beach: Call it with 1 as the argument? 2015-10-19T05:09:37Z drmeister: It needs to be a closure doesn't it? 2015-10-19T05:09:57Z beach: That would be the simple solution. 2015-10-19T05:10:20Z nyef: drmeister: Why would it need to be a closure? It's an odd form of LET. 2015-10-19T05:10:20Z drmeister: (let ((x 1)) ((lambda (y) (+ x y)) 1)) 2015-10-19T05:10:26Z beach: In this case, it can be compiled as (let ((x 1)) ...) 2015-10-19T05:10:49Z beach: (let ((x 1)) (print x)) 2015-10-19T05:11:02Z |3b| would convert it to LET, assuming LET wasn't being converted to LAMBDA putting you back where you started 2015-10-19T05:11:31Z nyef: drmeister: Or treat it as an implicit FUNCALL, or CONVERT it to a FUNCALL. 2015-10-19T05:11:53Z beach: I think that's the best solution. 2015-10-19T05:12:02Z beach: (funcall (lambda (x) (print 1)) 1) 2015-10-19T05:12:10Z Zhivago: Why not just propagate constants and rewrite it as (print 1)? 2015-10-19T05:12:15Z nyef: Possibly not the best, but a very simple solution. 2015-10-19T05:12:46Z beach: I think it's the best solution because the backend should turn it into the equivalent of the LET anyway. 2015-10-19T05:12:49Z drmeister: nyef: My funcall takes a Function object as its first argument, not a function pointer - that's where I'm getting hung up. 2015-10-19T05:13:04Z nyef: Zhivago: Too much effort, and the compiler in question doesn't have much of an optimization system. 2015-10-19T05:13:07Z drmeister: I'd have to cons a function object. 2015-10-19T05:13:32Z beach: drmeister: Ultimately, when you use Cleavir, it won't matter. 2015-10-19T05:13:50Z beach: drmeister: It will inline the local function anyway. 2015-10-19T05:13:56Z nyef: drmeister: Hrm... And you can't quite LET-convert it, because it might have &OPTIONAL, &REST, and &KEY arguments? 2015-10-19T05:14:07Z drmeister: Right, but slime has one of these in it and I wanted to use slime to debug remove-unnecessary-instructions. 2015-10-19T05:14:38Z drmeister: nyef: It might. 2015-10-19T05:15:14Z beach: drmeister: It is hard to tell what your objectives are. Is this a bclasp compiler optimization? 2015-10-19T05:15:36Z drmeister: No. It's to debug remove-unnecessary-instructions. 2015-10-19T05:15:39Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T05:15:40Z beach: If not, just allocate the closure in bclasp, and let Cleavir optimize it away when that phase is written. 2015-10-19T05:16:04Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:16:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:16:52Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:17:18Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:17:18Z nyef: Mmm. Maybe do it as a source-transform, when processing a form that starts with a CONS (or is it that starts with a CONS with a CDR of LAMBDA?), explicitly introduce a FUNCALL term, and let the existing machinery handle the result? 2015-10-19T05:18:33Z beach: Exactly. 2015-10-19T05:18:48Z beach: Minimum amount of work and minimum amount of special-purpose code. 2015-10-19T05:20:50Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:21:24Z drmeister: That would work 2015-10-19T05:21:46Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:22:29Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-10-19T05:23:37Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T05:23:38Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-19T05:24:30Z drmeister: I have this testing framework that I used to develop the interface to Cleavir. I start up bclasp in slime and then load the Cleavir code and my interface. 2015-10-19T05:24:38Z drmeister: It allowed me to get Cleavir working. 2015-10-19T05:25:31Z drmeister: A few days ago a ((lambda (...) ...) ...) form was added to slime and that broke my development environment because bclasp never could handle that sort of form. The interpreter also does not. 2015-10-19T05:25:51Z beach: How come? 2015-10-19T05:25:57Z beach: I mean, it is standard Common Lisp. 2015-10-19T05:26:00Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:27:58Z pjb: How do you implement LET if you don't support that lambda? 2015-10-19T05:28:01Z drmeister: It never came up in the CL source code I had. 2015-10-19T05:28:06Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-19T05:28:09Z drmeister: I implement LET 2015-10-19T05:28:46Z drmeister: I'm sure there is an easy way to do it - but it's been a long time and I'm scratching my head looking at my compiler trying to figure out how to put the pieces together. 2015-10-19T05:28:49Z pjb: (defmacro let (bindings &body body) `((lambda ,(mapcar (lambda (x) (if (atom x) x (first x))) bindings) ,@body) ,@(mapcar (x) (if (atom x) nil (second x))))) 2015-10-19T05:29:10Z drmeister: Nope 2015-10-19T05:29:44Z pjb: drmeister: the thing is that since they're equivalent, it would just give you more work to implement them separately and try to optimize them separately. They're just the same thing. 2015-10-19T05:30:28Z pjb: And similarly (f x y z) will be implemented and optimize the same way (notably when (declaim (inline f))) so that the function call is just the same as a "LET". 2015-10-19T05:30:34Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:30:59Z pjb: But of course, you can choose not to do that. 2015-10-19T05:32:31Z |3b|: pjb: easier to implement them separately before you get to the optimize stage though 2015-10-19T05:32:56Z Guest58751 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T05:33:06Z pjb: I won't deny that there's some learning process, and writing an implementation is a great way to learn. 2015-10-19T05:33:19Z pjb: Writing a good implementation probably can only be done the third time. 2015-10-19T05:33:49Z pjb: Even for simple programs, I often witness that only the third rewrite starts to become any good. 2015-10-19T05:33:55Z beach: pjb: Are you sure they are the same? 2015-10-19T05:34:02Z Guest58751 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:34:09Z pjb: there may be a few details to deal with but yes, basically. 2015-10-19T05:34:21Z beach: I am thinking of the documentation string. 2015-10-19T05:34:42Z drmeister: nyef: Thanks for that suggestion 2015-10-19T05:34:44Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fkRkzokr/ 2015-10-19T05:35:04Z pjb: Well, (let () "doc" "result") and (let () "result") are valid and have the same semantics as ((lambda () "doc" "result")) and ((lambda () "result")) #| --> "result" |# 2015-10-19T05:35:30Z drmeister: That did the trick 2015-10-19T05:35:54Z pjb: beach: the reverse transformation is more delicate for the parsing of lambda lists and arguments. 2015-10-19T05:36:06Z beach: Definitely. 2015-10-19T05:37:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:38:24Z nyef: drmeister: Wonderful. 2015-10-19T05:40:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T05:41:25Z drmeister: I may have a solution to the large memory requirements of clang when compiling the MPS version of clasp as well. It's in place - I'll test it tomorrow. 2015-10-19T05:42:07Z nyef: Okay, shutting down. I should be back in something like 34 hours, give or take. 2015-10-19T05:42:12Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all.) 2015-10-19T05:47:43Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-19T05:47:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:48:09Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:53:24Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:53:45Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:54:16Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-19T05:56:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T05:59:22Z drmeister: beach, pjb - thanks for your help and suggestions. I've got everything compiling now and tomorrow I should be able to start up my cleavir workbench again. 2015-10-19T06:00:55Z drmeister: It's really difficult to debug cleavir in cclasp because it's the default compiler - but in the bclasp/cleavir workbench I can easily compile forms with cleavir and look at the results and debug problems. Now that I can compile ((lambda (...) ...) ...) forms I can get slime running again in bclasp and get to work on this. 2015-10-19T06:01:07Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:02:35Z drmeister: beach: I'll trace delete-instruction to see what it's deleting that it shouldn't be. 2015-10-19T06:03:41Z drmeister: Because despite my best efforts to properly set up instruction-may-be-removed-p - something is wrong. 2015-10-19T06:04:56Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:07:45Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:11:35Z beach: drmeister: OK. I could have forgotten some instruction as well. Let me know what you find. 2015-10-19T06:11:40Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-19T06:17:45Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:20:39Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T06:21:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:22:19Z zarkone quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-19T06:26:25Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:26:54Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:30:00Z t4intz joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:30:59Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T06:33:07Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T06:37:25Z kanru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T06:38:19Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:40:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:40:40Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-19T06:41:36Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-19T06:44:02Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T06:44:17Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-19T06:45:32Z salva quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T06:46:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:47:08Z gucore joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:47:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:48:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:51:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T06:56:36Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T06:56:45Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-19T06:57:49Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:03:05Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:03:51Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:06:50Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:07:14Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:09:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:12:41Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:13:10Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:13:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:16:09Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:17:09Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:18:19Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:19:06Z jeaye: Given the path /foo/bar/spam how do I get spam? directory-namestring gives the whole thing and I don't see anything more suitable. 2015-10-19T07:19:16Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T07:19:18Z salva joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:20:03Z |3b|: clhs pathname-name 2015-10-19T07:20:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pn_hos.htm 2015-10-19T07:21:59Z jeaye: |3b|: Is there a bot in here for simple REPL work? 2015-10-19T07:22:03Z |3b|: or file-namestring 2015-10-19T07:22:21Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:22:24Z jeaye: pathname-name gives nil, likely because I also work with /foo/bar/spam/ 2015-10-19T07:22:29Z jeaye: (trailing /) 2015-10-19T07:23:01Z |3b|: right, file names and directory names are distinct in CL 2015-10-19T07:23:04Z jeaye: file-namestring on /foo/bar/spam/ is "" 2015-10-19T07:23:33Z |3b|: if you know /foo/bar, enough-namestring might help 2015-10-19T07:25:04Z |3b|: otherwise, check file-namestring/pathname-name, and if it is NIL, extract it from pathname-directory 2015-10-19T07:25:07Z jeaye: Hm, the clhs is really hard to approach sometimes, since many bits lack examples. 2015-10-19T07:26:01Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T07:26:20Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:26:38Z jeaye: enough-namestring is nicer, but, unfortunately, it's still not what I need. 2015-10-19T07:26:57Z jeaye: |3b|: Since it seems there isn't a function for doing this, what do you recommend for extracting the name? 2015-10-19T07:27:28Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:28:01Z |3b|: last thing i said was my best idea 2015-10-19T07:28:04Z |3b|: handle file names and directory names separately 2015-10-19T07:28:18Z jeaye: There are just directories here. 2015-10-19T07:29:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:29:30Z |3b|: then make sure they are specified as such (with trailing /) and use pathname-directory 2015-10-19T07:30:18Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:30:37Z |3b|: for simple case, (car (last (pathname-directory ...))), though for generality you would need to handle things like "/foo/bar/spam/x/../" 2015-10-19T07:30:43Z preacherAKAnd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:31:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:31:39Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:32:22Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:33:51Z jeaye: Ah, I see. 2015-10-19T07:33:56Z jeaye: |3b|: That's very helpful, thanks. 2015-10-19T07:33:56Z phf: jeaye: fwiw, cl-fad has pathname-as-directory and directory-pathname-p, but in general you'll be happier with cl if you stick to proper pathname discipline 2015-10-19T07:36:26Z jeaye: I was able to get it working with pathname-directory. https://gist.github.com/jeaye/3426ab8e997976a1983f 2015-10-19T07:36:42Z jeaye: phf: Are you saying this isn't following "proper pathname discipline"? 2015-10-19T07:36:47Z keen_____ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:37:26Z jeaye: (I would have no idea if it were) 2015-10-19T07:37:55Z keen____ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:40:06Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:40:08Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:40:11Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T07:40:12Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Why? 2015-10-19T07:40:46Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:42:48Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:42:48Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T07:42:50Z nostoi joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:43:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:43:29Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:44:38Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:44:51Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T07:46:19Z phf: jeaye: well, cl has a clear distinction between pathnames that point to files and those that point to directories, so when you pass those objects around your program, you want to ensure that you have the correct ones to begin with, rather then trying to treat /foo/bar and /foo/bar/ as the same thing 2015-10-19T07:47:15Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T07:47:32Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:47:38Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:47:46Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:51:01Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T07:51:07Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:52:36Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:53:37Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T07:53:42Z jeaye: phf: Noted. 2015-10-19T07:57:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:57:50Z nostoi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T07:58:08Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:01:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:03:08Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:04:04Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:10:55Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:11:44Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:11:51Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:12:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:14:04Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:14:08Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:14:12Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:16:04Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:16:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:16:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T08:27:23Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T08:28:12Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:31:12Z sword joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:31:33Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:32:47Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:33:28Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:33:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:37:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:37:14Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:37:42Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T08:37:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:39:02Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:43:11Z Ettore1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:43:37Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:45:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:46:22Z samssammerz: I would like to write an application that uses Python to create a webkit-based browser / GUI, and HTTP client library, but I would like to use CL for processing most of the data fetched by the HTTP lib, for parsing/generating HTML, etc ... but all of the lisp-python interfaces that I've found (CL-python, etc) seem to be dead projects ... are there any articles/libraries y'all could point me to that would explain current best practice for Lisp-Pytho 2015-10-19T08:46:22Z samssammerz: n interoperation? 2015-10-19T08:48:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:49:29Z jackdaniel: samssammerz: lisp has an excellent CFFI for C runtime. I believe Python has something similar. I think you could give a try for using C ABI for bridging both languages 2015-10-19T08:49:49Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:50:15Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:50:20Z loke: samssammerz: You can use clpython? 2015-10-19T08:50:52Z loke: Why would anyone want to use Python for just about anything is beyond me though. 2015-10-19T08:51:41Z jackdaniel: loke: it has better learning curve than lisp imho 2015-10-19T08:51:53Z samssammerz: loke, Simple: libraries, so I don't have to write everything myself. 2015-10-19T08:52:10Z jackdaniel: (what fruits in libraries :p) 2015-10-19T08:52:19Z loke: samssammerz: what libraries are you missing? 2015-10-19T08:52:44Z PuercoPop: samssammerz: checkout burgled batteries https://github.com/mmontone/burgled-batteries 2015-10-19T08:53:18Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T08:53:23Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:53:27Z jackdaniel bookmarks link posted by PuercoPop :p 2015-10-19T08:53:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:54:18Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T08:56:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T08:56:26Z samssammerz: loke, Tens of thousands of them actually ... I don't know what planet you live on, but I live on a planet where there are *vastly* more actively developed python libraries than LISP ones 2015-10-19T08:56:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:57:07Z samssammerz: PuercoPop, thanks 2015-10-19T08:57:45Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T08:57:54Z samssammerz: jackdaniel, Yeah, CFFI seems to be what I was looking for. Appreciated. 2015-10-19T08:58:51Z loke: samssammerz: I know. But how many of those are actuually usable, and needed and can't be done with something that exists in Lisp? 2015-10-19T08:59:06Z loke: samssammerz: Some examples would be appreciated. 2015-10-19T08:59:27Z samssammerz: All of them *could* be done in LISP. But as I said, I don't feel like writing them myself right now. 2015-10-19T08:59:51Z jdtest quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-19T09:00:14Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:00:23Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:00:29Z samssammerz: If you want examples go to Github. 2015-10-19T09:00:38Z samssammerz: Good night. 2015-10-19T09:02:10Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:03:05Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T09:04:05Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:04:39Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:04:51Z Shinmera sighs 2015-10-19T09:06:48Z Zhivago: sams: Didn't someone suggest using clpython, above? 2015-10-19T09:07:14Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:08:00Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T09:08:03Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:08:28Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: clpython doesn't work with python libs written in C I think 2015-10-19T09:08:37Z jackdaniel: what is a case for many libs for image processing 2015-10-19T09:08:57Z samssammerz: Zhivago, Yes, but I believe that jackdaniel's suggestion of using the FFI was more in line with what I was looking for (and as I said in my initial question, I was already aware of clpython) 2015-10-19T09:10:01Z jackdaniel: samssammerz: link posted by PuercoPop seems to be a complete implementation of my suggestion 2015-10-19T09:10:54Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T09:11:12Z loke: samssammerz: go to github? All I was asking for was some example of a library that you have not been able to find for Lisp that you use in Python. If the lisp library situation is so bad it should be trivial for you to mention one. 2015-10-19T09:11:20Z loke: Hell, even _I_ can mention more than one. 2015-10-19T09:11:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:11:31Z jackdaniel: not-invented-here syndrome? ;) 2015-10-19T09:12:07Z lvh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T09:12:08Z loke: jackdaniel: Clearly. 2015-10-19T09:13:16Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:14:17Z lvh joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:14:43Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:15:07Z samssammerz: loke, It's not a matter of "can". It's more like - "Not gonna waste my time with some zealot who won't even acknowledge the indisputable fact that there are far more actively developed python projects than LISP projects". I'd rather engage with the folks here who are actually attempting to answer my question directly, rather than proselytizing to me about their language of choice. 2015-10-19T09:15:16Z Guest58751 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T09:15:30Z samssammerz: So with that said, I'm gonna take off and go read more about the FFI ... 2015-10-19T09:15:37Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:15:40Z loke: samssammerz: You are arguing a strawman. In fact, I'm not even arguing. My goal is to help you find the libraries you need. 2015-10-19T09:15:51Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T09:16:32Z Guest58751 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:16:49Z loke: samssammerz: I even told you that I'm not denying the massive number of libraries available for Python. However, you are surely not _using_ all those libraries. My point is that most of the ones you actually _need_ are available for Lisp. 2015-10-19T09:17:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T09:17:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:17:50Z jackdaniel: one lacking library is enough to decide to leverage lisp with python if it's possible 2015-10-19T09:18:26Z loke: jackdaniel: Sure thing. 2015-10-19T09:18:42Z p_l: also, depending on use case, why not use both? 2015-10-19T09:18:52Z loke: jackdaniel: In fact, the lack of the decent RabbitMQ libraries almost stopped my project for a while, until I decided to fix that situation :-) 2015-10-19T09:18:57Z jackdaniel: and I think it's the case here, therefore there's no need to push on him "it can be done in lisp" (with all the sympathy :) 2015-10-19T09:19:10Z jackdaniel: p_l: we're talking about using both 2015-10-19T09:19:21Z loke: jackdaniel: Correct, but in this case he was running towards Python before even having the need for it. 2015-10-19T09:19:31Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T09:19:57Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:20:07Z jackdaniel: loke: you don't know the situation, he asked the question (probably after hitting some lack in lisp ecosystem) 2015-10-19T09:20:33Z jackdaniel: either way I'm going back to swank hackery from android :p 2015-10-19T09:20:34Z jackdaniel: \o 2015-10-19T09:20:35Z Shinmera: Exactly, he doesn't know. And yet samssammerz refuses to answer the question. That's suspicious. 2015-10-19T09:20:36Z loke: jackdaniel: Wouldn't it have made sense for him to give that as an example when I asked for lacking libraries? 2015-10-19T09:21:11Z loke: This is a prime example of when it's better to solve the underlying issue, then trying to help a (possibly) bad solution. 2015-10-19T09:29:01Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:32:08Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:33:24Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-19T09:33:41Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:37:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:41:57Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T09:44:38Z smull_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-19T09:45:14Z smull joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:46:22Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:46:22Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T09:50:23Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T09:52:36Z jackdaniel: luis: around? do you have any clue why when connecting to the remote swank server emacs hangs on "pipelined request... (swank-request:create-repl nil :coding-system "utf-8-unix")", but after cancelling (C-g) and calling slime-repl works just fine? 2015-10-19T09:52:58Z jackdaniel: or anybody in a matter of fact :p ↑ 2015-10-19T09:54:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:54:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-19T09:54:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-19T09:59:31Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:01:14Z t4intz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T10:01:33Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:04:56Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:05:05Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T10:08:02Z Ettore1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T10:08:53Z ogamita quit (Quit: ogamita) 2015-10-19T10:09:17Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:10:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:12:12Z izabera joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:12:22Z izabera left #lisp 2015-10-19T10:12:41Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:13:20Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T10:13:31Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:21:08Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T10:21:10Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:21:34Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:22:58Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:23:55Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-19T10:24:30Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T10:25:51Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2015-10-19T12:44:00Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-19T12:45:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T12:46:30Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-19T12:48:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T12:48:52Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T12:50:26Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T12:53:37Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-19T12:53:47Z fluter quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-19T12:54:01Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-19T12:59:54Z Acherontius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T13:00:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:00:30Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T13:00:31Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:01:21Z fluter quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-19T13:02:00Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:03:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T13:05:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:11:06Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-19T13:11:44Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:14:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T13:15:18Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:15:46Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:16:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T13:17:24Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T13:24:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:26:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:26:51Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-19T13:26:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:27:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:29:25Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:29:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:30:18Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:30:56Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-10-19T13:30:56Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:33:34Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:35:54Z Ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T13:37:40Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T13:38:27Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:39:12Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:41:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T13:43:49Z ski: minion: chant 2015-10-19T13:43:50Z minion: MORE THAN 2015-10-19T13:44:13Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-19T13:45:10Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T13:50:00Z pjb: jeaye: no eval bot. Instead try: https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-erc.el#L966 2015-10-19T13:50:42Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:50:43Z jeaye: Not an emacs user, but thanks for the reply. 2015-10-19T13:52:18Z stanislav1 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:52:40Z stanislav1 is now known as quasus 2015-10-19T13:53:06Z pjb: jeaye: otherwise, have a look at an example of an irc bot and you can adapt it to eval your privmsgs: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/botihn/botihn-fr.html 2015-10-19T13:53:39Z pjb: jeaye: if you don't care for irc, but just for a no-install CL: http://iplwcl.informatimago.com/ 2015-10-19T13:54:24Z jeaye: Thanks for all the info; I was more interested in whether there was one in here so I could more accurately convey my question. 2015-10-19T13:56:52Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:58:29Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-19T13:59:48Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-19T14:00:25Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:02:27Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:04:25Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:05:11Z oleo: ello 2015-10-19T14:07:59Z hydan` joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:09:23Z Yuuhi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:10:59Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:12:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:12:41Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:15:04Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T14:15:10Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:16:17Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-19T14:16:19Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:16:51Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:17:38Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:18:49Z Wasdaf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-19T14:19:10Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:21:11Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:21:25Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T14:22:51Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-19T14:23:04Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-19T14:24:34Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:24:55Z fluter quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-19T14:25:29Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:26:14Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:28:30Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:28:55Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-19T14:29:17Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:29:30Z fluter quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-19T14:30:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:31:55Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:33:33Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:34:40Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-19T14:36:27Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:37:23Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:37:39Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:39:12Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:39:27Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:40:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:42:33Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:43:57Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:45:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T14:46:49Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:48:59Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:50:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:52:05Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:52:13Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:52:15Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:56:05Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T14:56:23Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:58:30Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:58:44Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-19T14:59:30Z OrangeShark quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-19T15:00:00Z dougk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T15:00:53Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:01:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:01:26Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T15:02:21Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-19T15:02:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:03:46Z Ven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T15:03:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:04:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:04:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I'm a bit interested in using ubiquitous's file format as as general-purpose configuration system. 2015-10-19T15:04:44Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:04:48Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: That's fine, but I don't see what the additional subdirectory of common-lisp changes about that 2015-10-19T15:07:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not much, it's more of an aesthetics thing rather than anything else. 2015-10-19T15:09:25Z Shinmera: In what context are you using ubiquitous? An application or a library? 2015-10-19T15:10:31Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:10:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: An application. 2015-10-19T15:11:50Z Shinmera: You can pass explicit paths as identifiers or override CONFIG-DIRECTORY. 2015-10-19T15:12:04Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:13:21Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:13:45Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:14:18Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:15:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:16:25Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:17:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:19:55Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-19T15:22:11Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:22:32Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T15:22:51Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:23:39Z kp666 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T15:23:59Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:26:39Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:26:54Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:27:29Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:31:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:34:14Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:36:09Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-19T15:37:30Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T15:37:30Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T15:38:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Parse it? Parse it rigorously or leniently? 2015-10-19T18:08:04Z farhaven: lenient parsing is all i need 2015-10-19T18:08:11Z jackdaniel: farhaven: then don't use s-xml which isn't error tolerant 2015-10-19T18:08:18Z farhaven: k, noted 2015-10-19T18:08:19Z Shinmera: farhaven: Plump will do that. 2015-10-19T18:08:32Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/plump/ 2015-10-19T18:08:35Z jackdaniel: cxml should be ok 2015-10-19T18:09:34Z farhaven: okay, that's a nice sample set to evaluate 2015-10-19T18:09:36Z farhaven: thanks 2015-10-19T18:10:09Z Vulfe joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:10:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:11:55Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:15:03Z Vulfe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:15:37Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T18:17:57Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:23:31Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:24:24Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:27:04Z g_SG: 'afternoon, ladies and gents! 2015-10-19T18:27:16Z dfox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T18:27:54Z g_SG: anyone feel like helping coming up with an algorithm? 2015-10-19T18:28:13Z g_SG: something along these lines: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/33221301/random-assignment-of-elements-in-a-list 2015-10-19T18:29:14Z g_SG: generating mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive permutations of a list 2015-10-19T18:29:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:30:03Z mordocai: What are your goals? Memory efficiency, CPU efficiency, just something that works, ?? 2015-10-19T18:30:49Z ajtulloc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T18:30:50Z g_SG: mordocai: based on what I'm standing on, I'd say just something that works. If I could afford to be picky, CPU efficiency is more important 2015-10-19T18:31:47Z shka: g_SG: oh, that's easy to do in "just works" manner 2015-10-19T18:32:07Z shka: but i have no idea how to make it fast 2015-10-19T18:32:35Z mordocai: g_SG: I'd say your presented solution in the stackoverflow is fine. Assign them a random number then group by. 2015-10-19T18:33:08Z shka: g_SG: how many elements? 2015-10-19T18:33:12Z g_SG: shka: I'm interested hahah 2015-10-19T18:33:31Z g_SG: shka: in the hundreds 2015-10-19T18:33:33Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:33:46Z shka: g_SG: right 2015-10-19T18:33:56Z shka: do you want it to be completly random? 2015-10-19T18:33:57Z g_SG: mordocai: I have no idea how to implement that hahahaha 2015-10-19T18:34:04Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:34:10Z shka: or be more normal 2015-10-19T18:34:56Z g_SG: shka: I don't care too much about that. It's just an initial population for me to later iterate on. Uniformly distributed is fine 2015-10-19T18:35:03Z shka: ok 2015-10-19T18:35:50Z shka: so, given the description, i would simply walk over list of full population, assigning each person to random bucket 2015-10-19T18:36:32Z shka: perhaps have some cutoff for full 2015-10-19T18:36:53Z shka: like: don't assign to bucket if it is twice as large as smallest one 2015-10-19T18:38:12Z g_SG: shka: hmm, that full requirement shouldn't be too much of a burden. i expect the local search i'm going to run afterwards to eliminate those pretty quickly 2015-10-19T18:38:21Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:38:30Z shka: well, that's what i would do 2015-10-19T18:38:44Z g_SG: shka: it's just that i'm seriously lacking the lisp skills to actually write the code 2015-10-19T18:39:10Z g_SG: shka: the (rather sad) part that i've been able to come up with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157140 2015-10-19T18:39:12Z shka: to speed it up, you may want to keep your population in array, and assign few people at the time 2015-10-19T18:39:23Z shka: g_SG: oh, don't worry 2015-10-19T18:39:27Z shka: it is easy :-) 2015-10-19T18:39:33Z shka: just keep it simple 2015-10-19T18:39:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:40:07Z shka: g_SG: first, of you need to decide how do you store your buckets 2015-10-19T18:40:17Z shka: personally, i would use just any array 2015-10-19T18:40:24Z shka: it seems to be reasonable approach 2015-10-19T18:40:46Z shka: then, you simply need to iterate over your population 2015-10-19T18:40:57Z shka: mapcar will work 2015-10-19T18:40:57Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:41:24Z shka: some would say that you should use other map function, but that's detail 2015-10-19T18:41:37Z shka: you already know how to generate random number, right? 2015-10-19T18:41:49Z shka: i will try to cook some code 2015-10-19T18:42:06Z g_SG: shka: well, i heard about RANDOM hahaah 2015-10-19T18:42:28Z g_SG: shka: didn't even know lisp had arrays. i was using CONSes and lists for pretty much everything 2015-10-19T18:42:50Z g_SG: shka: vectors should probably be more efficient for lots of stuff i'm doing, especially since most of them should be fixed size 2015-10-19T18:43:24Z shka: g_SG: oh, ok 2015-10-19T18:44:07Z g_SG: but, with two weeks worth of lisp experience, i wouldn't say i'm qualified for thath ahaha 2015-10-19T18:44:41Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T18:44:58Z g_SG: //whoami 2015-10-19T18:46:20Z mordocai: As far as data types, this looks correct http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node15.html. Someone with more experience might have a better resource. 2015-10-19T18:46:35Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-19T18:47:24Z ajtulloch quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-10-19T18:48:40Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:48:44Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:49:44Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:50:47Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:52:21Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:52:32Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:54:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:55:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-19T18:55:19Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:55:24Z g_SG: mordocai: interesting, so when would i be better off with an array? 2015-10-19T18:56:06Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:57:39Z Wasdaf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-19T18:57:52Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:58:03Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-19T18:58:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T18:59:48Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:01:26Z shka: g_SG: i think he was just pointing out usefull reference 2015-10-19T19:01:28Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157141 2015-10-19T19:01:36Z shka: it is not exactly pretty 2015-10-19T19:01:54Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:01:54Z shka: (random-grouping 5 '(a b c d e f g h i j k l m n)) 2015-10-19T19:02:30Z shka: sbcl random seems to be producing more zeros than one would expect 2015-10-19T19:03:55Z White_Flame: one should expect nothing else from RNGs :) 2015-10-19T19:04:16Z shka: well anyway, this is not exactly random since first element will always land in the first bucket 2015-10-19T19:04:29Z shka: but it demonstrates idea 2015-10-19T19:04:53Z shka: White_Flame: well, they are pseudorandom in reality anyway 2015-10-19T19:04:57Z White_Flame: I'd look to see if there's some way to calculate the number of possibilities, grab a random number from that, and generate that permuation from the index 2015-10-19T19:05:42Z White_Flame: if you want random order without repeats, it'd be simpler to either cache the set of already-used indexes, or use a RNG with a specific period without overlaps 2015-10-19T19:05:46Z shka: g_SG: to balance this issue you can shuffle input data befor launching this function 2015-10-19T19:06:11Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T19:06:16Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:06:27Z attila_lendvai: there's alexandria:shuffle 2015-10-19T19:06:32Z shka: yeah 2015-10-19T19:06:36Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:06:51Z shka: g_SG: btw, what book are you using? 2015-10-19T19:07:19Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:07:28Z g_SG: shka: PCL, chapter 15 hahahah 2015-10-19T19:07:32Z shka: good 2015-10-19T19:07:36Z shka: very good book 2015-10-19T19:07:54Z shka: anyway, do you have any other questions? 2015-10-19T19:09:09Z g_SG: shka: man, it'll take a while for me to understand that code. thanks a lot! 2015-10-19T19:10:17Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T19:11:28Z shka: g_SG: well, it has closures 2015-10-19T19:11:48Z shka: but otherwise, simple code 2015-10-19T19:11:54Z shka: without anything interesting 2015-10-19T19:14:12Z Quadrescence: shka, looks like a fun little function to implement 2015-10-19T19:14:54Z g_SG: shka: well, it's a good chance for me to learn DECLARE, FLET and VECTORs. :) 2015-10-19T19:15:30Z shka: ah, sorry 2015-10-19T19:15:40Z shka: i didn't knew that you don't know what those do 2015-10-19T19:16:16Z shka: if I would only knew, i would write it other way 2015-10-19T19:16:31Z g_SG: shka: hah, no problem, i'm reading the docs 2015-10-19T19:16:50Z shka: well, ok 2015-10-19T19:17:27Z mordocai: g_SG: This has a decent explanation of the uses of vectors vs linked lists btw, not specific to lisp. Just data structures. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19039972/linked-list-vs-vector. (Sorry, was busy doing work :P) 2015-10-19T19:20:13Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T19:20:14Z g_SG: mordocai: oh, so it's very much like C then 2015-10-19T19:21:39Z shka: well, language is just language 2015-10-19T19:22:27Z g_SG: yeah, i mean, contiguous slots in memory 2015-10-19T19:23:29Z White_Flame: is that guaranteed, though? I think in theory an implementation can choose to chop up vectors into whatever internal representation they want 2015-10-19T19:23:30Z g_SG: i don't know why i was expecting anything different 2015-10-19T19:23:47Z White_Flame: but in reality, yeah you're going to get contiguous memory 2015-10-19T19:24:33Z shka: and that's a good thing 2015-10-19T19:24:51Z shka: since prefetchers are designed to work with that 2015-10-19T19:25:10Z g_SG: White_Flame: probably not, since vectors can be variable sizes 2015-10-19T19:26:10Z White_Flame: things like immutable vectors tend to build up a vector in spans, sharing subspans between different versions of a vector 2015-10-19T19:26:49Z White_Flame: but obviously dereferencing an index will be more work han just pointer math 2015-10-19T19:27:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:27:57Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-19T19:28:26Z zubidou joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:29:41Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:30:54Z g_SG: i should totally hang out here with you guys more often hahaah 2015-10-19T19:31:08Z g_SG: thanks everyone, i'm heading home now 2015-10-19T19:31:30Z g_SG: cheers! 2015-10-19T19:31:33Z g_SG quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-19T19:31:44Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:32:09Z malice joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:33:03Z malice: Hey! How can I use LOOP to loop over an array, but from certain point? E.g. : (loop for item in (rest list) do (something)) <- I want to substitute list with vector 2015-10-19T19:34:19Z ggole: You want to start at a certain index? 2015-10-19T19:34:53Z White_Flame: s/in/across/ to go from list to vector 2015-10-19T19:35:30Z White_Flame: you could use subseq and hope for compiler smarts to convert that to indexing 2015-10-19T19:35:46Z ggole: You'll need explicit indexing to iterate a subrange 2015-10-19T19:35:48Z ggole: Or that 2015-10-19T19:35:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:42:35Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T19:44:00Z zubidou quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T19:44:09Z malice: I know about across, just wanted to know some function to get me the part of vector 2015-10-19T19:44:14Z malice: I'll try to go with subseq. Thanks! 2015-10-19T19:45:16Z malice: Unfortunately, something like (loop for x over (subseq vector 1) do (something)) does not work. 2015-10-19T19:45:17Z phadthai: it's also possible to create displaced arrays, if you need to avoid consing 2015-10-19T19:47:14Z phadthai: you sure that you didn't want aref there? But I didn't read the whole context 2015-10-19T19:47:37Z phadthai: hmm I guess that I'd use a custom index and aref for a custom range 2015-10-19T19:48:17Z phadthai: for i from n upto/below n etc 2015-10-19T19:49:26Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T19:52:53Z attila_lendvai: I'm lost with how shadow is supposed to work. both sbcl and ecl produce this result, which I don't understand: http://paste.lisp.org/+3D97 2015-10-19T19:53:52Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T19:54:13Z White_Flame: malice: (loop for x _across_ (subseq vector 1) do (something)) 2015-10-19T19:54:27Z White_Flame: and that does work 2015-10-19T19:54:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:55:05Z attila_lendvai reads the SHADOW clhs one more time 2015-10-19T19:57:58Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-19T19:59:10Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:02:10Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-19T20:03:20Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-19T20:06:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T20:11:17Z dim: any lparallel users around? 2015-10-19T20:11:44Z Quadrescence: here's my RANDOM-GROUPING function. https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/master/random-grouping.lisp 2015-10-19T20:11:47Z dim: wondering about the real cost of receive-result and the opportunity to maybe defer it to much later, wondering about the task management etc 2015-10-19T20:12:26Z dim: another way to ask might also be: what do you use to manage worker threads with high throughput communication facilities? 2015-10-19T20:12:36Z Quadrescence: linear in time and memory in the number of list elements 2015-10-19T20:12:52Z dim don't care much about latency here, it's all about throughput 2015-10-19T20:13:10Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:14:59Z phadthai: attila_lendvai: also tested on clisp to do the same... you might need to export it after shadowing 2015-10-19T20:16:17Z OrangeShark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T20:16:41Z attila_lendvai: thanks phadthai. Xof also helped me out of my misery in #sbcl: "so since the symbol is exported from B, it is present (not inherited) in B, so shadow has no effect" 2015-10-19T20:16:55Z phadthai: oh ok 2015-10-19T20:17:22Z attila_lendvai thinks hard how to do this then 2015-10-19T20:18:21Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:18:22Z phadthai: I have an old test program using shadow in case it might be useful: http://git.pulsar-zone.net/?p=mmondor.git;a=blob;f=mmsoftware/cl/test/shadow-test.lisp;hb=HEAD 2015-10-19T20:24:00Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-19T20:24:05Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:28:10Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:30:15Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T20:31:03Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:35:15Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T20:40:44Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T20:41:37Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T20:43:35Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:43:42Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:44:33Z vlnx_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:46:20Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:47:11Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-19T20:47:27Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:48:42Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T20:50:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:50:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:53:46Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T20:53:50Z Trystam joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:59:13Z tristam__ joined #lisp 2015-10-19T20:59:35Z Trystam quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:02:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:02:35Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:04:49Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T21:05:05Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-19T21:06:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:06:26Z PortManToe joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:07:06Z PortManToe is now known as P0rtM4nTo3 2015-10-19T21:07:36Z ggole quit 2015-10-19T21:12:11Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-19T21:14:06Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:16:47Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T21:16:55Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:17:01Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:17:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:22:05Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:22:09Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-19T21:23:07Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:26:58Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:35:27Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:38:32Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T21:38:47Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T21:41:55Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-19T21:42:04Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:44:11Z dkcl quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-19T21:50:03Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:50:33Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T21:50:44Z Whymind quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-19T21:55:05Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-19T21:55:07Z faheem__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-19T21:56:00Z g_SG joined #lisp 2015-10-19T21:57:03Z znpy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-19T21:58:16Z g_SG: White_Flame: check this other (loopier) solution http://paste.lisp.org/display/157141#1 2015-10-19T21:59:40Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-19T22:01:10Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2015-10-19T22:03:13Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-19T22:06:03Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-19T22:06:26Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-19T22:06:59Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-19T22:07:24Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I've never used change-class in all my years of using common lisp. 2015-10-20T00:07:54Z fluter quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-20T00:08:20Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:08:42Z fluter quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T00:08:56Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:08:57Z fluter joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:09:44Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:14:34Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:20:05Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:20:38Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:21:36Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-20T00:23:09Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:24:45Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T00:25:27Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:26:53Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:28:06Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:29:44Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:29:49Z nate_c quit 2015-10-20T00:31:02Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:31:55Z g_SG left #lisp 2015-10-20T00:32:22Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T00:33:26Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-20T00:37:42Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:41:18Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T00:43:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T00:55:45Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T00:59:57Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:00:15Z j0ni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T01:00:47Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:03:15Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:03:28Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:06:42Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:07:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:08:20Z heddwch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T01:12:42Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T01:17:00Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:18:28Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:24:51Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:25:20Z xrash_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:26:05Z emaczen: What are the formal names for the terminal symbols in a lambda-list? Can someone point me to the CFG? 2015-10-20T01:26:18Z emaczen: ,clhs lambda-list 2015-10-20T01:26:48Z Bike: clhs 3.4.1 2015-10-20T01:26:48Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 2015-10-20T01:26:50Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:27:51Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:27:56Z emaczen: thanks Bike 2015-10-20T01:33:26Z wemeetagain joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:34:57Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-20T01:35:52Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:36:35Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:38:48Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:39:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:39:42Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:40:52Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:41:07Z emaczen: what is a class-eq-specializer? 2015-10-20T01:41:50Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T01:42:47Z __uu__ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:44:03Z Bike: context? 2015-10-20T01:44:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:46:23Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:52:31Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:52:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:53:09Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-20T01:53:11Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:53:49Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:54:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:54:34Z xrash_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T01:54:59Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-20T01:55:49Z tristam__ quit (Changing host) 2015-10-20T01:55:49Z tristam__ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:55:54Z tristam__ is now known as Tristam 2015-10-20T01:56:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T01:56:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-20T01:58:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:02:46Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:03:26Z badkins quit 2015-10-20T02:04:17Z drmeister: pillton: We use change-class in the cclasp compiler all the time. It's a wonderful way to enhance the cleavir compiler. Cleavir compiles s-expressions to and AST and then to a graph of HIR instructions. I can take AST nodes and HIR instructions and change their classes to derived classes that contain clasp specific slots to add more information to them. 2015-10-20T02:04:33Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:06:14Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:06:20Z drmeister: beach can write a very elegant and pure compiler and then I can go and mess it up. 2015-10-20T02:07:20Z drmeister: change-class, :around methods and very rarely "stealth-mixins" let's me alter and reuse the code of cleavir without touching his source code. 2015-10-20T02:09:00Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:09:40Z drmeister: It's almost like I can reuse his objects and methods. I'm thinking of calling it "Programming oriented towards objects". 2015-10-20T02:09:45Z drmeister: I'm still working on the name. 2015-10-20T02:10:09Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:10:39Z drmeister: Oh - I have clasp build times under three hours on my laptop. 2015-10-20T02:13:04Z loke: drmeister: Is it ready for me to try building now? 2015-10-20T02:13:09Z loke: (or is it still too difficult?) 2015-10-20T02:13:19Z drmeister: What do you run on? 2015-10-20T02:13:23Z drmeister: Linux or OS X? 2015-10-20T02:13:25Z loke: drmeister: Arch Linux. 2015-10-20T02:13:36Z drmeister: Hang on. 2015-10-20T02:13:54Z spyrosoft joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:14:36Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:15:05Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:18:44Z drmeister: Here are the build instructions for Ubuntu linux 2015-10-20T02:18:44Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/wiki/Installing-Clasp-0.4-on-Ubuntu-14.0. 2015-10-20T02:19:05Z drmeister: A couple of apt-get's and to build clasp: make clean; make 2015-10-20T02:20:16Z loke: drmeister: I'll try, thanks. 2015-10-20T02:20:24Z loke: I'll lget you know (in 3 hours? :-) ) if it worked. 2015-10-20T02:20:46Z drmeister: Oh - wait - let me modify those instructions to tell you what branch to pull 2015-10-20T02:20:52Z drmeister: It's the testing branch 2015-10-20T02:25:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:25:43Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:27:18Z loke: Is llvm 3.6 required? 2015-10-20T02:27:22Z loke: Arch only has 3.7 2015-10-20T02:28:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:28:27Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:29:51Z emaczen: How do I used apply to "unpack a list" so that the value returned by apply is suitable as a rest argument? 2015-10-20T02:31:36Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T02:31:55Z loke: emaczen: You have to be a bit more precise 2015-10-20T02:32:03Z loke: I have honestly no idea what you're asking. 2015-10-20T02:32:06Z emaczen: Sorry 2015-10-20T02:32:15Z emaczen: I have a function which takes a &rest parameter 2015-10-20T02:32:37Z emaczen: I want to use a list as the argument to this function 2015-10-20T02:32:50Z loke: emaczen: just use APPLY? 2015-10-20T02:32:52Z emaczen: I have used #'apply in situations before, but for some reason I forget... 2015-10-20T02:33:44Z loke: Assume foo ← '(1 2 3 4 5), then (apply #'+ foo) → (+ 1 2 3 4 5) 2015-10-20T02:34:38Z loke: Or Σfoo, if you like :-) 2015-10-20T02:36:54Z emaczen: loke: Thanks I got it. 2015-10-20T02:37:11Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:37:33Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-20T02:37:50Z loke: FOr anyone reading, doing APPLY on #'+ is usually not the best way to sum all numbers in a list. (reduce #'+ foo) is better 2015-10-20T02:38:13Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:38:43Z emaczen: I often try to apply in the same "context" as you would use ,@ for a macro: (+ ,@(1 2 3 4)) but of course in the runtime... 2015-10-20T02:39:15Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:39:15Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T02:40:24Z loke: emaczen: Sounds reasonable. 2015-10-20T02:40:53Z Zhivago: emaczen: Remember that there are argument limits. 2015-10-20T02:41:04Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-20T02:47:17Z drmeister: Does anyone know of a way to monitor the system resources (memory/CPU) that a program uses as it runs. Linux or OS X. Something more sophisticated than watching it with "top" and writing down the values every couple of minutes. 2015-10-20T02:48:03Z drmeister: I think I've lowered the resource requirements of compiling a particularly troublesome C++ file of clasp and I'd like to verify it in a more rational way. 2015-10-20T02:48:28Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-20T02:56:51Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:03:23Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:04:01Z hydan`: drmeister: dtrace toolkit for mac, perf for linux http://www.brendangregg.com/perf.html 2015-10-20T03:04:27Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T03:07:59Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T03:08:26Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:09:40Z NOPonPOP joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:09:45Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T03:10:33Z NOPonPOP left #lisp 2015-10-20T03:15:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:19:01Z NeverDie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:19:17Z pillton: drmeister: Hmm. I'll have to do more reading. 2015-10-20T03:19:26Z pillton: drmeister: Thanks for posting. 2015-10-20T03:20:05Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T03:20:31Z Guest63994 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:21:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:21:49Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T03:22:35Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:22:40Z quazimod3 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:23:04Z brandonz quit (Quit: brb) 2015-10-20T03:23:11Z papachan_ left #lisp 2015-10-20T03:24:17Z brandonz joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:24:23Z papachan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:24:46Z axion: i'm new to emacs. are there any useful emacs packages besides slime for CL? 2015-10-20T03:25:00Z pillton: paredit 2015-10-20T03:25:11Z axion: and paredit :) 2015-10-20T03:25:44Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T03:27:30Z pillton: I use a pretty printer for the ^L character (typed C-q C-l). It helps with delimiting source code. 2015-10-20T03:28:03Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:28:03Z quazimod2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:28:03Z quazimod3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:28:03Z quazimod1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:28:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:28:23Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:28:51Z afei joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:28:54Z hydan`: axion: some people use redshank as well 2015-10-20T03:30:27Z hydan`: axion: not really a cl package, but you could also set up eww/w3m to open hyperspec links in emacs 2015-10-20T03:32:26Z axion: thanks for the suggestions 2015-10-20T03:32:43Z axion: been using vim for CL for 7 years and finally switching to emacs and liking it 2015-10-20T03:34:15Z hydan`: axion: good for you, have you discovered Evil yet? 2015-10-20T03:38:33Z loke: drmeister: You around still? 2015-10-20T03:38:42Z drmeister: Yes 2015-10-20T03:38:44Z loke: My clasp build failed 2015-10-20T03:38:50Z drmeister: sigh 2015-10-20T03:38:55Z drmeister: What do you see? 2015-10-20T03:40:11Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:40:19Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-20T03:40:34Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/3ae8f11e4ff1294745f2 2015-10-20T03:40:36Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:40:41Z loke: drmeister: Thats the error 2015-10-20T03:40:49Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-20T03:40:58Z loke: drmeister: Does it tell you anything? 2015-10-20T03:41:09Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T03:41:32Z drmeister: I have a guess. Is Arch one of these constantly updating distros? 2015-10-20T03:41:39Z loke: drmeister: It is 2015-10-20T03:41:54Z drmeister: what do you get when you type: clang --version ? 2015-10-20T03:42:08Z loke: clang version 3.7.0 (tags/RELEASE_370/final) 2015-10-20T03:42:24Z drmeister: Right 2015-10-20T03:43:00Z drmeister: clasp needs 3.6. 3.7 isn't widely available enough yet. 2015-10-20T03:43:22Z drmeister: What do you do on Arch if you need an older version of a specific library. 2015-10-20T03:43:53Z loke: drmeister: You can't 2015-10-20T03:44:00Z drmeister: Hmmm 2015-10-20T03:44:47Z drmeister: Ok, I'll have to do some work to add support for LLVM3.7 for distros that provide 3.7 2015-10-20T03:44:58Z kyfho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T03:45:49Z loke: drmeister: But here the problem seems to be that ther is a macro named mix that collides with a method name called mix? 2015-10-20T03:45:58Z loke: mix seems to be a pretty bad name for a macro 2015-10-20T03:46:09Z hydan`: loke: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Downgrading_packages and https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux_Archive has you covered when you need to downgrade 2015-10-20T03:46:21Z hydan`: loke: here is the archive for clang: http://ala.seblu.net/packages/c/clang/ 2015-10-20T03:46:51Z drmeister: Well, 3.7 is coming - I'll have to upgrade to it at some point. 2015-10-20T03:46:54Z loke: hydan: I've had very mad experiences with running old packages on Arch (in my case, not upgrading in a timely manner). I had a lot of dependency failures and the entire house of cards crumbling. 2015-10-20T03:47:58Z hydan`: loke: maybe with some packages, you should be pretty safe with something like clang, not much, if any system stuff depends on it 2015-10-20T03:48:47Z drmeister: loke: It's up to you - or you can wait until I upgrade. 2015-10-20T03:48:49Z hydan`: loke: but I generally agree that it is a path to pain and suffering, but it is possible 2015-10-20T03:48:59Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:50:09Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-20T03:50:46Z Guest63994 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-10-20T03:50:49Z drmeister: Clasp isn't about pain and suffering - it's about the joy and happiness. Oh and Unicorns. 2015-10-20T03:51:20Z drmeister notes - at least not other peoples pain and suffering 2015-10-20T03:51:31Z pillton: hah 2015-10-20T03:52:08Z loke: hydan: In my case it was some systemd crap 2015-10-20T03:52:42Z loke: Seriously, I'm →|← this close to moving to Freebsd just to get rid of systemd 2015-10-20T03:52:53Z hydan`: drmeister: sorta like the dtrace ponycorn? (: http://dtrace.org/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/dtracepony.png 2015-10-20T03:53:08Z hydan`: drmeister: I hope it starts shooting lasers soon 2015-10-20T03:53:40Z loke: hydan: That looks like some weird mix of Rarity and Applejack 2015-10-20T03:54:37Z loke: Was I exposing too much pony knowledge? 2015-10-20T03:54:51Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T03:55:02Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-20T03:55:44Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T04:04:01Z beach: drmeister: So are you keeping the code walker from ECL? 2015-10-20T04:05:41Z beach: drmeister: The reason I suggested removing it was that it would be more code to maintain since there has to be a phase for dead-code elimination in the compiler anyway. So the code walker is redundant. But maybe you don't care about things like that. 2015-10-20T04:08:27Z afei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T04:09:13Z drmeister: beach: I'm keeping it for bclasp. 2015-10-20T04:09:14Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:09:38Z drmeister: It is disabled for cclasp - it was a big win for building. 2015-10-20T04:11:04Z drmeister: It's no extra code - it hijacks the bclasp compiler just as ECL hijacks it's compiler to do code walking. 2015-10-20T04:11:45Z White_Flame: Given all that broke when SBCL shifted quasiquoting to be structure-based, keeping a user-available code walker in somewhere would be nice 2015-10-20T04:12:27Z beach: White_Flame: I think that's a very different problem. As I recall, this code walker is special-purpose. 2015-10-20T04:12:42Z beach: White_Flame: I have yet to figure out the right interface to a general-purpose code walker. 2015-10-20T04:12:58Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:13:04Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:13:23Z beach: Such a thing would be very nice to have though. 2015-10-20T04:14:46Z beach: It would need implementation-specific assistance such as determining whether a variable is declared special, etc. 2015-10-20T04:15:25Z drmeister: The ECL CLOS defmethod relies on this optimization. I can take it out for bclasp - but there doesn't seem to be a point to it. bclasp is just for compiling cclasp and walking the code at this point accelerates bclasp compilation considerably. When cclasp is compiled it takes the code-walking out and relies on remove-useless-instructions. 2015-10-20T04:16:37Z beach: Right. The only point of taking it out would be to decrease the amount of code that has to be maintained. But I suppose you can argue that, since this is ECL code, it will be maintained by someone else. 2015-10-20T04:17:26Z drmeister: It's about 20 lines of code and an if statement in the compiler. 2015-10-20T04:17:39Z drmeister: It's not a dedicated code walker by any means. 2015-10-20T04:19:59Z drmeister: beach: The instructions that need to have cleavir-remove-useless-instructions:instruction-may-be-removed-p defined are rplaca-, rplacd- and set-symbol-value-instruction; that's so far. 2015-10-20T04:20:09Z drmeister: What about assignment-instruction? 2015-10-20T04:20:20Z beach: Not the assignment-instruction, no. 2015-10-20T04:20:22Z drmeister: Is that considered to have a side-effect? 2015-10-20T04:20:24Z beach: Thanks for the others. 2015-10-20T04:20:31Z beach: No, it has no side effect. 2015-10-20T04:20:43Z beach: If it assigns to a variable that is never used, it can be removed. 2015-10-20T04:21:48Z beach: I'll add methods for those instructions a bit later, after I am more awake than now. 2015-10-20T04:22:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T04:22:16Z zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-20T04:23:58Z beach: drmeister: Thanks for taking the time to find those. 2015-10-20T04:24:15Z drmeister: No problem - I want this to work. 2015-10-20T04:24:41Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T04:25:20Z drmeister: I may have more tomorrow (mine) - I'm recompiling everything 2015-10-20T04:25:48Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-10-20T04:28:52Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:30:10Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:33:44Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-20T04:37:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:39:02Z Lord_Nightmare: anyone have any suggestions for beginners to lisp? 2015-10-20T04:42:07Z White_Flame: learn symbols & packages, that's the hardest initial learning curve, imo 2015-10-20T04:42:12Z resttime: Lord_Nightmare: Practical Common Lisp is a neat introduction 2015-10-20T04:42:45Z resttime: Also have a nice development environment Emacs + SLIME + Paredit 2015-10-20T04:44:13Z White_Flame: yeah, emacs + slime is still the most mature dev environment for Lisp 2015-10-20T04:44:24Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:46:07Z resttime: Oh and the Common Lisp HyperSpec is a great reference 2015-10-20T04:46:38Z resttime: If unsure about something, often times you might be able to find what you're looking for in there. 2015-10-20T04:46:57Z resttime: Errr, at least that's the experience I've had. 2015-10-20T04:47:24Z Lord_Nightmare: ok, thanks everyone for suggestions! 2015-10-20T04:48:24Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-20T04:50:51Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T04:51:27Z drmeister: beach: Those three appear to be it. 2015-10-20T04:52:04Z drmeister: cclasp runs now. remove-useless-instructions is working now with no problems. 2015-10-20T05:02:18Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-20T05:05:43Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:05:53Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T05:06:03Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:07:13Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T05:07:25Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:08:43Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-10-20T05:09:07Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-10-20T05:09:13Z beach: drmeister: OK, good. Thanks again. 2015-10-20T05:09:45Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: And hanging out here is good. 2015-10-20T05:10:23Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:11:58Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T05:12:45Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T05:13:42Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:14:52Z spyrosoft left #lisp 2015-10-20T05:17:06Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T05:18:05Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:19:27Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: Do you already know some programming? 2015-10-20T05:19:38Z Lord_Nightmare: sure 2015-10-20T05:19:46Z beach: What languages? 2015-10-20T05:20:25Z Lord_Nightmare: i know basic (ew), c, c++, some python, some forth (!), some java, and sql 2015-10-20T05:20:44Z beach: Great! Good background. 2015-10-20T05:21:19Z Lord_Nightmare: i know lisp and forth have a lot of similarities in the way things work but where forth everything is stack based (and gets kinda crazy manipulating the stack), lisp everything is list/object based 2015-10-20T05:21:25Z beach: CLOS, the Common Lisp Object System, will be interesting to you I think. 2015-10-20T05:21:51Z Lord_Nightmare: or so i gathered, perhaps i'm wrong 2015-10-20T05:22:13Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: There is a lot of wrong information being spread about Lisp. 2015-10-20T05:22:25Z jackdaniel: more object then list :) 2015-10-20T05:22:32Z beach: Exactly. 2015-10-20T05:22:35Z jackdaniel: than* 2015-10-20T05:23:01Z Lord_Nightmare: is it more like everything is a function, even parameters to other functions? 2015-10-20T05:23:13Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: Lists are very handy for passing short sequences or sets around, but they are not part of the architecture of any good Lisp software. 2015-10-20T05:23:30Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T05:23:39Z jackdaniel: everything is an object. Functions and lists are some kind of objects. You can pass any object as a function parameter 2015-10-20T05:23:41Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: That would more be the case for functional programming. You can use functional programming in Common Lisp. 2015-10-20T05:23:54Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: But modern Common Lisp programs use object-oriented programming a lot. 2015-10-20T05:23:57Z jackdaniel: you have loose typing system, so you are not obligated to declare parameter types 2015-10-20T05:26:00Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:27:05Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: Here is a good summary of the features of Common Lisp: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 2015-10-20T05:27:22Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T05:28:00Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-20T05:28:14Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:29:46Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-20T05:33:41Z resttime: Also don't let the parenthesis deter you, homoiconicity is a great strength of lisp where syntax is simple. 2015-10-20T05:34:06Z resttime: I had a thought recently it's like a touch typist vs one who needs to look at the keyboard. 2015-10-20T05:35:08Z resttime: The languages without this feature require more thought to double check that the syntax is correct. 2015-10-20T05:35:17Z Zhivago: I think of it as being uniformly mediocre. :) 2015-10-20T05:35:50Z Zhivago: To put the lie to your idea, tell me if (push item stack) or (push stack item) has the correct syntax? 2015-10-20T05:36:02Z beach: Zhivago: How come you haven't created your ideal language yet? 2015-10-20T05:36:44Z resttime: Zhivago: Hmmm, that's an interesting way to put it, didn't think about that 2015-10-20T05:36:51Z beach: I mean, you have accumulated so many ideas of how not to do things over the years, surely you must know exactly how it should be done by now. 2015-10-20T05:36:57Z Zhivago: As I become less stupid, it's harder to find the ideal. 2015-10-20T05:37:19Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T05:37:37Z Zhivago: This is probably because the ideal is an artifact of stupidity. 2015-10-20T05:37:49Z Bike: poor plato 2015-10-20T05:37:59Z resttime: Zhivago: Though on the other hand that would be an issue in other languages as well strcpy(hi, lol); 2015-10-20T05:38:03Z Zhivago: That's what you get for living in a cave with puppets. 2015-10-20T05:38:20Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T05:38:30Z jackdaniel: (defmacro push-item-to-stack (&rest args) `(push ,@args)) 2015-10-20T05:38:32Z Zhivago: resttime: Sure -- where they haven't added special syntax to support it. 2015-10-20T05:38:33Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-10-20T05:38:38Z beach: resttime: Zhivago is not comparing Common Lisp to other languages, but to some ideal that might not exist. 2015-10-20T05:38:41Z White_Flame: Lord_Nightmare: source code is simply lists. That's generally as far as it goes, but is a massive tool in language advancement 2015-10-20T05:38:43Z Zhivago: resttime: Now consider (aref a b) vs. a[b]. 2015-10-20T05:38:47Z pillton: Zhivago: What are you emotional about then now that ignorance is no longer an option? 2015-10-20T05:39:15Z White_Flame: Lord_Nightmare: one thing that hasn't been mentioned is quicklisp. That's the system to easily download & use libraries. Use it 2015-10-20T05:39:21Z Zhivago: resttime: Which brings me back to my point about uniform mediocrity -- not that I'm saying that's a bad thing -- it's just that lisp doesn't really have a uniform syntax in any but the most superficial terms. 2015-10-20T05:39:34Z Zhivago: pillton: Ignorance is always an option. 2015-10-20T05:39:50Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:40:37Z Zhivago: pillton: However, somethings I have been wondering about are multiply valued values and locality. 2015-10-20T05:41:21Z resttime: Zhivago: Hmmmm, though I still believe my point is valid, at least compared to the other languages 2015-10-20T05:41:37Z resttime: White_Flame: quicklisp good catch 2015-10-20T05:42:27Z resttime: Zhivago: Can you explain to me a bit more what a uniform syntax might be like? 2015-10-20T05:42:28Z jackdaniel: Lord_Nightmare: alos http://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries and https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl for library overviews 2015-10-20T05:42:32Z Zhivago: resttime: I don't think so -- on average, I suspect that most other languages have more efficient syntax -- I'd suggest looking into the benefits of a regular superficial syntax for things like automatic source code comprehension and transformation, instead of the benefit for humans. 2015-10-20T05:42:43Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:42:50Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:44:15Z Zhivago: resttime: The problem with your argument is that as soon as you try to translate a = b[c].d(e) into lisp it becomes pretty uncompelling. 2015-10-20T05:44:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T05:45:24Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:45:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:45:37Z pillton: Zhivago: Multiply valued values? 2015-10-20T05:45:38Z Zhivago: (let ((a (funcall (d-of (aref b c)) e))) ...), perhaps. 2015-10-20T05:45:57Z Zhivago: pillton: Yeah -- a value which is both 2 and 3, for example. 2015-10-20T05:46:29Z jackdaniel: smells quantum-programming-like ;p 2015-10-20T05:46:31Z beach: Lord_Nightmare: As you can see, the debate is quite alive here. #lisp is populated by a bunch of highly knowledgeable and experienced people. A great place to be. 2015-10-20T05:46:49Z resttime: Hmmm, that does make sense, though in that case couldn't we just parse that syntax into the example you provided ? 2015-10-20T05:47:00Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-20T05:47:03Z resttime: Forward and back 2015-10-20T05:47:07Z Zhivago: pillton: Then operators would provide the dot-product -- e.g., (1, 2) + (2, 3) -> (3, 4, 4, 5) 2015-10-20T05:47:14Z resttime: They are the same aren't they? 2015-10-20T05:47:41Z Zhivago: resttime: Probably, assuming you have a clear convention for .d and d-of or whatever. 2015-10-20T05:47:44Z resttime: So benefit for humans WILL be better because we're the ones writing the software 2015-10-20T05:48:05Z Zhivago: resttime: Sure, you can make such a meta-argument -- it helps write better editors. 2015-10-20T05:49:21Z Zhivago: resttime: Which is an easy argument to support, because of emacs. 2015-10-20T05:49:45Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T05:50:06Z pillton: Zhivago: What prompted the pursuit? 2015-10-20T05:51:05Z Zhivago: Well, it's annoying that we need to have completely separate protocols for unitary values and collections. 2015-10-20T05:51:22Z Zhivago: So, why not just turn unitary values into collections of a single element? 2015-10-20T05:54:05Z Zhivago: If you consider a stream to be a collection of (index, value) pairs, it also demagicks most i/o. 2015-10-20T05:55:32Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: do you consider writing a paper on that? (examples, maybe proposed implementation, foreseen implications) 2015-10-20T05:55:42Z jackdaniel: I'd love eto read it 2015-10-20T05:55:49Z jackdaniel: s/eto/to/ 2015-10-20T05:56:07Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T05:56:50Z Zhivago: Not in the near future -- I'm very busy lately. :( 2015-10-20T05:57:17Z resttime: I'm curious too, please make the time 2015-10-20T05:57:19Z jackdaniel: that's a shame. Let me know when you do, or if you'll write some sketches/notes 2015-10-20T05:57:45Z resttime: I'll try to read it though I probably won't be able to understand most of it lol 2015-10-20T05:58:13Z resttime: Still need to learn more 2015-10-20T05:58:15Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:58:23Z jackdaniel: such approach seems quite similar to the variable model in quantum computers 2015-10-20T05:58:39Z jackdaniel: s/computers/computing theory/ 2015-10-20T05:58:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T05:59:16Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T05:59:55Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-20T06:00:25Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:00:28Z pillton: Zhivago: Interesting. 2015-10-20T06:01:33Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:02:59Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:04:24Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:05:13Z White_Flame: Zhivago: I"m certainly on the same page of "everything is a set or sequence", where even those 2 things might just be views of the same fundamental concept, but hadn't though about applying that to unit valies. Interesting insight 2015-10-20T06:06:49Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:07:05Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T06:07:56Z Zhivago: Imho, they fundamentally they need to be bags, because sequence depends on some successor function, and due to duplicates. 2015-10-20T06:08:51Z White_Flame: but with bags, "pull 1 thing out of the bag" effectively turns it into a sequence 2015-10-20T06:09:09Z White_Flame: and IO is easier to see as a sequence than a bag, though given enough tolerance for latency that can be overcome 2015-10-20T06:10:01Z Zhivago: That can't turn it into a sequence. 2015-10-20T06:10:03Z White_Flame: oh, you mean set vs multiset. I tend to say give unique keys if members are to be distinguished, but that's more driven by the nature fo the language I work from 2015-10-20T06:10:16Z Zhivago: To turn it into a sequence, you'd need to 'pull the successor to X out of the bag'. 2015-10-20T06:10:49Z White_Flame: if pull separates a bag into "pulled item" and "rest of bag", successive application of pulling an arbitrary item from the bag converts it into an arbitrarily-ordered sequence 2015-10-20T06:11:42Z Zhivago: It may allow you to construct such a sequence, but it doesn't turn anything into that. 2015-10-20T06:12:55Z Zhivago: Non-deterministic sampling of a set doesn't turn the set into a sequence. 2015-10-20T06:13:06Z Zhivago: But you can build a sequence from your samples if you like. 2015-10-20T06:13:47Z White_Flame: yes, it doesn't change the nature. It exposes the bag through a view of a sequence 2015-10-20T06:14:05Z Zhivago: You can do that if you like, but it would be a very strange thing to do. 2015-10-20T06:14:11Z White_Flame: so its "bagness" or "sequenceness" is not observed by the sequential observer 2015-10-20T06:14:29Z White_Flame: apply mapcar to a bag of items == works 2015-10-20T06:14:50Z Zhivago: Except that in this model, there would be no mapcar. 2015-10-20T06:14:52Z White_Flame: basically, I'm referring to what I said above that sequence & set might simply be 2 views of the same underlying concept 2015-10-20T06:15:02Z Zhivago: You'd just apply the operation to the value. 2015-10-20T06:16:29Z White_Flame: that underlying concept is obviously membership, but the practical fundamental accessors that could be most usefully exposed is interesting 2015-10-20T06:17:02Z White_Flame: especially if leaving threaded imperative code flow languages 2015-10-20T06:17:09Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:17:43Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:19:51Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:24:26Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:24:51Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-20T06:26:15Z pinterface1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-20T06:27:52Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T06:27:58Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:28:25Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:28:54Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:30:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:31:58Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:35:18Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T06:35:44Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T06:37:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:43:11Z resttime: Zhivago: What do you work at D-Wave? 2015-10-20T06:43:52Z resttime: Oops, scratch that "What" 2015-10-20T06:44:14Z resttime: I just think D-Wave when I heard about quantumn computing since they use SBCL 2015-10-20T06:44:22Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:45:17Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:45:26Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:46:51Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:49:29Z resttime: Ugh, I remembered that I think I sent them an email to try and get them to hire me a few years ago when I was younger and first learning Common Lisp 2015-10-20T06:49:51Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:49:51Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:50:01Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:50:44Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:50:54Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-20T06:51:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T06:51:58Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T06:58:34Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-20T06:59:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:00:09Z brandonz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T07:00:39Z roo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T07:00:55Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:00:57Z resttime: Wait no, I asked them what it would take for them to hire me... though regardless I think I was way too smug for my own good back then hehehe 2015-10-20T07:01:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:01:56Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-20T07:02:33Z Zhivago: You could offer to pay them to accept you as an unpaid intern. 2015-10-20T07:02:46Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T07:03:48Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:03:54Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:04:10Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T07:05:15Z __uu__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T07:13:48Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T07:14:26Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T07:14:47Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:14:48Z loke: Zhivago: how are unpaid interns legal? Isn't there mnimum wages in the us? 2015-10-20T07:15:08Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:15:22Z pjb: loke: it's not unpaid. 2015-10-20T07:15:43Z loke: pjb: I'm sure I've heard the expression "unpaid intern". 2015-10-20T07:15:51Z pjb: loke: the intern pays the employer $100 to teach him how to work, and the employer pays the intern $100 for the work done. 2015-10-20T07:16:13Z loke: pjb: Seriously? Is that how it works? 2015-10-20T07:16:26Z pjb: loke: the only thing is that the state doesn't tax them both for the $200 of unaccounted GNP . 2015-10-20T07:17:02Z pjb: So we can consider that it's actually a subvention given from the state to the intern and to the employer. 2015-10-20T07:17:22Z loke: Seems to me like the intern is getting the short end of the stick though 2015-10-20T07:17:47Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-20T07:17:59Z jackdaniel: it depends how valuable for you is such position in cv and how much you could learn 2015-10-20T07:18:00Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:19:01Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:19:40Z jackdaniel: you pay for schools for instance 2015-10-20T07:20:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T07:21:33Z loke: jackdaniel: Hmm, yeah. That's a concept that's a bit alien to me too :-) 2015-10-20T07:21:48Z pjb: loke: I wonder what you are complaining about, it's not like we're living in Fortress http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106950/ or In Time http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1637688/ . 2015-10-20T07:21:51Z loke: Where I'm from you are paid to go to school 2015-10-20T07:22:13Z pjb: loke: by definition, being an employee is a losing proposition. 2015-10-20T07:22:15Z jackdaniel: loke: if you pay taxes you pay for the school 2015-10-20T07:22:17Z jackdaniel: sactually 2015-10-20T07:22:37Z loke: jackdaniel: Most peopl ewho go to school have not started to pay taxes yet. 2015-10-20T07:22:46Z jackdaniel: but they parents do 2015-10-20T07:22:51Z jackdaniel: their* 2015-10-20T07:23:07Z jackdaniel: and when you buy a chockolate you pay VAT 2015-10-20T07:23:17Z pjb: loke: this is the problem: (poor) parents don't teach enough taxes and finances to their children. 2015-10-20T07:23:37Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes, as is everybody else in society. The argument is that everybody should be able to go to school, regarldess of their wealth. That the entire society shares the burden of paying for people's education. 2015-10-20T07:24:13Z jackdaniel: it is like that: your country pays for *some* of the schools. You may want to pick something more fancy, like personal mentor 2015-10-20T07:24:32Z jackdaniel: country won't pay for that. from the school/mentor position it's indifferent - they get money for you as a student 2015-10-20T07:25:11Z pjb: loke: the problem is that the state forces everybody to come to the state controlled schools because when people are educated by churches, they're not slaves. 2015-10-20T07:25:11Z jackdaniel: and you pay it one way or the another. But yeah, you may say all stuff paid for taxes is free 2015-10-20T07:25:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T07:25:18Z jackdaniel: can I buy it from you? for free? :p 2015-10-20T07:25:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:26:01Z jackdaniel vanishes, some smoke and sparkles follow 2015-10-20T07:26:22Z loke: jackdaniel: I earn above-average wage, and I have absolutely no problems paying for education and healthcare for everybody. 2015-10-20T07:26:38Z jackdaniel: that's not my point ;) 2015-10-20T07:27:05Z loke: jackdaniel: What is your point then? 2015-10-20T07:27:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-20T07:27:41Z jackdaniel: that this "short end of the stick" isn't that short if you take the education thing into account (which isn't free for anyone) 2015-10-20T07:28:07Z pjb: http://www.queenoftherandomjob.com/should-kids-pay-taxes-on-a-lemonade-stand/ 2015-10-20T07:28:33Z loke: jackdaniel: Ah, but then you're arguing the wrong point. My point was that interns generally provide real work, and provide a real benefit to the company. I believe they should be paid as such 2015-10-20T07:28:48Z loke: Less salary because of inexperience, sure. But zero. That's my issue. 2015-10-20T07:28:49Z pjb: loke: of course, there are abuses. 2015-10-20T07:29:34Z jackdaniel: loke: it depends. if you are greenie and you have mentor assigned then you provide less value then you consume (absorbing time of the mentor) 2015-10-20T07:29:51Z jackdaniel: of course if you provide netto value you should get paid 2015-10-20T07:30:06Z loke: pjb: In my experience (which, of course, is a very small sample, and mostly contains data from Sweden and Singapore) is that interns provide the same kind of value to the company as any other employee (more, in fact, since they are more motiavted) 2015-10-20T07:31:06Z pjb: loke: it's probably more true in programming than in some other domains. 2015-10-20T07:31:10Z Shinmera: Can you move this shit someplace else? This is #lisp not #socioeconomics 2015-10-20T07:31:22Z pjb: After all, in programming, you can evaluate somebody quickly enough. 2015-10-20T07:31:24Z loke: pjb: Possibly. Like I said, my data set is limited. 2015-10-20T07:31:42Z pjb: So you can filter out intern candidate who are very bad at it. 2015-10-20T07:31:45Z loke: Shinmera: it's not like anything else was being discussed :-) 2015-10-20T07:31:47Z jackdaniel: of course, but please mind the language 2015-10-20T07:32:00Z pjb: Oops, sorry, I thought it was #lispcafe. 2015-10-20T07:32:12Z Shinmera: loke: Yeah but I'm being alerted when people speak. 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I know slime does it but I can't figure out how. 2015-10-20T13:12:59Z Shinmera: warweasle: trivial-arguments is in QL 2015-10-20T13:13:13Z Shinmera: I assume you mean you want the lambda-list of a function. 2015-10-20T13:13:20Z moredhel quit (Quit: byee) 2015-10-20T13:13:49Z Shinmera: "A function call's arguments" would just be (cdr call-form). 2015-10-20T13:14:04Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:16:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:19:03Z warweasle: Shinmera: Thanks. I didn't know about that package. Actually I don't know most of the packages and have no idea what they do. 2015-10-20T13:19:27Z Shinmera: Neither do I. After all, there's over a thousand projects in QL. 2015-10-20T13:19:56Z Shinmera: I only wrote a handful of those myself. 2015-10-20T13:20:09Z warweasle: Shinmera: I wish there were a description of each. 2015-10-20T13:20:36Z warweasle: Shinmera: I have CLinch. Which is a graphics engine. 2015-10-20T13:21:10Z Shinmera: http://quickdocs.org/ and ql:system-apropos can help. 2015-10-20T13:21:11Z warweasle never remembers the name for gambol. 2015-10-20T13:21:30Z Shinmera: f.e. (ql:system-apropos "arguments") would have shown trivial-arguments 2015-10-20T13:22:29Z warweasle: Shinmera: I did not know about that. 2015-10-20T13:22:37Z warweasle is learning today. 2015-10-20T13:23:33Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:23:59Z Xach has a hard time mapping nicks to real names sometimes, but could never forget that b. w. beer wrote clinch! 2015-10-20T13:25:05Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T13:25:12Z warweasle: Xach: LOL! I wonder if that's because my name is Beer or that I'm a pain in the ass. 2015-10-20T13:26:50Z Acherontius quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-10-20T13:27:14Z warweasle: Xach: Since you are the de facto king of the lisp community, do you think there is a lisp curse which stops lispers from working together? 2015-10-20T13:27:50Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:28:15Z Xach: since i am king, i force everyone to work together, and all his harmonious 2015-10-20T13:28:21Z Xach: is, rather 2015-10-20T13:28:33Z Shinmera: The curse of easy prototyping might have a part in that I guess. 2015-10-20T13:28:34Z Acherontius joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:28:54Z Shinmera: Xach: I thought you were the mafia boss, now you're king too? Outrageous! 2015-10-20T13:29:23Z warweasle: Shinmera: That's my opinion, but Xach is at ground zero. "over 1,200 libraries!" 2015-10-20T13:29:25Z Xach: warweasle: I don't know, really. I've worked together on teams and it's been fine. I think at the moment there's a period of solitary lisp gestation where the novice thinks "I'm the only one going down this road and I can make it anything I want", and the further you get down that path, the more you grow to love your own homegrown tools. 2015-10-20T13:29:47Z Shinmera: Actually, this reminds me of the article I was linked to today: http://www.shenlanguage.org/lambdassociates/htdocs/blog/bipolar.htm 2015-10-20T13:29:49Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:30:20Z Xach: warweasle: And I think you can get pretty far on your own, and wind up in your own cocoon of style and preference. 2015-10-20T13:30:22Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:30:59Z Xach: that's all just speculation 2015-10-20T13:32:11Z Shinmera: warweasle: In my particular case I would appreciate collaboration, but usually I work on a "I need this thing" basis and I only stop once the library is rounded off, at which point I suppose most don't care to step over the initial entrance barrier to contribute to it. 2015-10-20T13:32:15Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:32:44Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:32:52Z warweasle was hoping quicklisp would start bringing similar projects together. It looks like the opposite has happened. A sort of "Tower of Babble" effect. 2015-10-20T13:33:35Z Shinmera: Teamwork also introduces organisational overhead that slows the process down and often frustrates people. There needs to be enough trust and --for the lack of a better word-- chemistry between the collaborators for the process to work out smoothly. 2015-10-20T13:33:42Z Xach: warweasle: it's a mixed bag. fare stopped working on fare-matcher and told everyone to use optima instead, for example. 2015-10-20T13:34:09Z Xach: warweasle: and i try to get people to think about existing options before adding yet another xml/json/utility/etc library 2015-10-20T13:34:29Z warweasle: Shinmera: In many cases I have no idea a library exists or in some cases what it does. cl-cells, for example. It sounds tantalizing but I can't seem to understand how to use it. 2015-10-20T13:34:31Z Xach: peter seibel spoke about the cycle of proliferation and consolidation at his ILC talk about common lisp's history 2015-10-20T13:35:06Z Xach: warweasle: I really wish there was a single very popular documentation program/library that people used regularly. 2015-10-20T13:35:07Z warweasle: Xach: So we might be in for a period of consolidation soon? 2015-10-20T13:35:10Z Shinmera: warweasle: Right. Library accessibility is definitely a problem. 2015-10-20T13:35:25Z Xach: warweasle: Possibly! 2015-10-20T13:35:43Z Shinmera: Predicting the future is a difficult business. 2015-10-20T13:36:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:37:42Z warweasle: Shinmera: It's big money if you can sell your version of it. Like that guy that sold campers to religious people. 2015-10-20T13:38:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:38:08Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-20T13:38:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:38:11Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-20T13:38:17Z Shinmera: Un/fortunately I'm not into cashing in the big bucks. 2015-10-20T13:39:01Z moredhel quit (Quit: byee) 2015-10-20T13:39:13Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:39:20Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T13:39:22Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:40:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:40:36Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:41:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:41:10Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:43:12Z phadthai: Shinmera: the templeos oracle? 2015-10-20T13:43:14Z phadthai: lol 2015-10-20T13:43:28Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:44:02Z warweasle: Xach: Is there any way to get an idea of how often a project is downloaded? Or perhaps look at github/gitlab to check popularity and pick out the most popular projects? 2015-10-20T13:44:15Z Xach: I track those stats 2015-10-20T13:44:23Z Xach: I'd like to make a site to share that info 2015-10-20T13:44:54Z Xach: Both github activity and download frequency, and more 2015-10-20T13:46:04Z jackdaniel: 2esources/user.lisp" 2015-10-20T13:46:06Z Shinmera: Will it also include statistics for how much time the author wastes on IRC? :) 2015-10-20T13:46:21Z warweasle: Xach: Do you just want a page for quicklisp.org? 2015-10-20T13:46:36Z Xach: "wastes"!! 2015-10-20T13:46:37Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:46:38Z ajf- quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T13:46:39Z Xach: invests, more like! 2015-10-20T13:47:00Z Xach: warweasle: a page per project, maybe, with raw stats available via json or something. 2015-10-20T13:47:06Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T13:47:31Z warweasle: Xach: I'm really be interested in a sorted list of projects. 2015-10-20T13:47:44Z warweasle: ~be` 2015-10-20T13:47:45Z PlasmaStar quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-20T13:47:50Z Xach: warweasle: have you seen the download stats posts i put on blog.quicklisp.org? 2015-10-20T13:47:58Z Xach: i'm a few months behind, i have to automate that too. 2015-10-20T13:49:12Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:49:15Z warweasle: Xach: No, I never noticed that. I just look at the list of updated projects. 2015-10-20T13:49:17Z november` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T13:49:28Z warweasle: Xach: Where do you keep your download data? 2015-10-20T13:49:38Z Xach: warweasle: in a pg database on my server. 2015-10-20T13:49:51Z Xach: imported from CloudFront logs daily. 2015-10-20T13:51:17Z Shinmera: warweasle: Just a list of the projects is on https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects 2015-10-20T13:51:33Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T13:51:34Z Shinmera: warweasle: Though note that projects /= systems /= packages 2015-10-20T13:51:46Z Xach: the actual list is what comes with the latest dist. 2015-10-20T13:51:51Z warweasle: Shinmera: I don't follow. 2015-10-20T13:51:54Z Xach: there are some projects in quicklisp-projects that don't build. 2015-10-20T13:52:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:52:30Z Shinmera: warweasle: A project in QL can have multiple systems of differing names and a system can define one or more packages of differing names. 2015-10-20T13:52:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:52:40Z warweasle: Xach: Does quicklisp require cloudfront? 2015-10-20T13:52:54Z warweasle: Shinmera: Oh, ok. I'm tracking now. 2015-10-20T13:53:07Z Xach: warweasle: it depends on what you mean by "quicklisp". I host the archive files on cloudfront, but it could be hosted on any web server too. 2015-10-20T13:53:22Z Xach: cloudfront has helped make the files accessible in place that would otherwise time out 2015-10-20T13:55:35Z warweasle: Xach: That seems like a good chunk of data. Is that expensive? (If so, you might want to do one of those donation goal bars.) 2015-10-20T13:55:47Z Xach: warweasle: it's under $10/month. 2015-10-20T13:55:54Z warweasle: Although I like the simple look of quicklisp.org... 2015-10-20T13:56:11Z Xach: it's a fantastic deal, in my opinion. this would have been a lot harder to do 10+ years ago. 2015-10-20T13:56:17Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:56:30Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:56:44Z Shinmera: 10+ years ago people were also much more patient about their internet connectivity. 2015-10-20T13:56:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T13:57:28Z warweasle runs a linode server for $10 a month. I mostly use it to get through my company's firewall to chat on IRC. 2015-10-20T13:58:18Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T13:59:15Z warweasle: I tried to make a lisp website but I couldn't think of anything to really do with it. http://warweasle.com/ 2015-10-20T13:59:47Z moredhel quit (Quit: byee) 2015-10-20T13:59:59Z Xach: get that blog going! write about clinch! 2015-10-20T14:00:34Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:00:57Z dwchandler: wow, >$10/month really is a deal 2015-10-20T14:01:02Z dwchandler: er, < 2015-10-20T14:02:46Z moredhel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T14:03:27Z moredhel joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:05:21Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:05:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:08:07Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:09:37Z EvW quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T14:10:46Z pjb: warweasle: somebody discussed the problem of multiple libraries for a single domain a few years ago. I had some comments on the subject. Even more so today, I'd say. One big problem is licensing politics. Another is divergent features (I'd take as example, the "bugs" I find/found in alexandria, eg. in the treatment of symbol case, or see my discussin of HTML generators). There's also the difficulty of contributing: 1- quicklisp is 2015-10-20T14:10:49Z pjb: not integrated with git (we'd need a simple ql:command to fetch the git repo for a system). 2- github clone; edit; push; pull request is still complex and time consuming, as is requesting a write access on an existing project; for this point I'd advocate for publically writeable git repos (but I've not had time to set up an experimental repo for this). 2015-10-20T14:11:44Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T14:13:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:15:39Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T14:15:57Z warweasle thinks many of the licensing issues could be fixed with a preferred default license. Also, some guidance on naming conventions would help. 2015-10-20T14:16:09Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:16:11Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:16:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T14:16:45Z warweasle: pjb: I don't understand the part about git, however. Why do we need a separate tool or repository? 2015-10-20T14:19:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:20:08Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:20:53Z PuercoPop: warweasle: I think pjb's point it to lower the 'energy barrier' to contribute code back to the project, not about a tool in particular 2015-10-20T14:21:20Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-10-20T14:22:23Z warweasle: PuercoPop: Ahh...That makes sense. 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Since it's a common-lisp.net project, it's probably on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net 2015-10-20T16:30:01Z pjb: like: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/phemlock/phemlock 2015-10-20T16:30:03Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-20T16:32:18Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:33:30Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:34:31Z jackdaniel: haa, it's swank bug after all 2015-10-20T16:34:47Z jackdaniel: <~~ proud of himself 2015-10-20T16:37:06Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:39:26Z mprelude quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T16:40:47Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:44:50Z Ettore quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T16:45:46Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:47:38Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-20T16:48:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T16:49:14Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-10-20T19:17:12Z trinitr0n: I'm curious. 2015-10-20T19:17:36Z Bicyclidine: Nothing 2015-10-20T19:18:40Z shka: i have no idea who he is 2015-10-20T19:19:17Z trinitr0n: last known owner of the Symbolics IP (/not/ the service arm that DKS still operates) 2015-10-20T19:19:25Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:19:33Z trinitr0n: Apparently a con man and murderer(?) as well 2015-10-20T19:19:54Z trinitr0n: it has recently come to my attention that he may have never paid for the IP, and the title may have never transferred. 2015-10-20T19:20:15Z shka: aaaaaah 2015-10-20T19:20:17Z shka: ok 2015-10-20T19:20:23Z trinitr0n: Meaning A) he collected illegitimate royalties and license fees, and B) The IP may well be in public domain (assuming anything can be found) 2015-10-20T19:20:27Z shka: trinitr0n: murderer? 2015-10-20T19:20:33Z trinitr0n: which is an intriguing and strange twist to this story. 2015-10-20T19:20:34Z Shinmera: Colleen: Andrew Topping 2015-10-20T19:20:35Z Colleen: Keith Andrew Topping (born (1963-10-26)October 26, 1963 in Walker, Tyneside) is an author, journalist and broadcaster most closely associated[who?] with his work relating to the BBC Television series ... 2015-10-20T19:20:44Z trinitr0n: Yeah it's not gonna be that easy 2015-10-20T19:20:49Z Shinmera: Thaaat doesn't sound like the guy. 2015-10-20T19:20:56Z trinitr0n: He died in ~2005 2015-10-20T19:21:03Z trinitr0n: probably killed his wife, never charged 2015-10-20T19:21:29Z shka: oh, well, another one 2015-10-20T19:21:40Z trinitr0n: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2012-05/lisp-2012.05.11.txt 2015-10-20T19:21:42Z clique left #lisp 2015-10-20T19:21:59Z trinitr0n: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19720812&id=A 2015-10-20T19:21:59Z trinitr0n: _wjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lWYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6644,3551485&hl=en 2015-10-20T19:22:12Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:22:44Z p8m: If he never paid for the IP it wouldn't necessarily be PD. The rights would return to whoever was selling it, right? 2015-10-20T19:22:49Z trinitr0n: I'm trying to preserve what I can of the early Symbolics legacy and the deeper I did the more shit gets fucked up 2015-10-20T19:23:00Z trinitr0n: p8m: yes, but the previous holder ceased to exist AFAIK 2015-10-20T19:23:35Z trinitr0n: so yeah, best guess- nobody owns it 2015-10-20T19:23:51Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:23:53Z trinitr0n: Seriously considering paying a lawyer a few kilobucks to solve the mystery once and for all 2015-10-20T19:24:04Z trinitr0n: maybe I'll kickstart it 2015-10-20T19:24:11Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:24:17Z Xach: I believe John C. Mallery holds symbolics IP at the moment. 2015-10-20T19:24:19Z DeadTrickster: trinitr0n, what are you talking about? 2015-10-20T19:25:03Z trinitr0n: Xach: hmm that sounds right actually given what I've heard from DKS 2015-10-20T19:25:16Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:25:25Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:25:40Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:26:10Z didi joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:27:20Z didi: I've been using (map nil fn seq) to map over sequences for side-effect purposes. Is there another function for mapping over sequences? Maybe a macro like (doseq (x seq) ...)? 2015-10-20T19:27:24Z trinitr0n: Xach: did topping ever legitimately own it? 2015-10-20T19:27:35Z Xach: I don't know anything about that. 2015-10-20T19:27:44Z Xach: didi: i've seen many old-timers use mapc instead. 2015-10-20T19:27:50Z Xach: didi: i prefer map nil most of the time. 2015-10-20T19:27:59Z didi: Xach: Cool. Thank you. 2015-10-20T19:29:12Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:30:00Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:30:03Z fantomik joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:30:50Z didi: Xach: Hum. AFAIU `mapc' requires a list, not a sequence, right? 2015-10-20T19:30:59Z shka: didi: yup 2015-10-20T19:31:08Z didi: shka: Thanks. 2015-10-20T19:31:10Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:31:17Z shka: IIRC only map works with sequences 2015-10-20T19:31:19Z didi: In this case, I want the flexibility of sequences. 2015-10-20T19:31:26Z shka: but i may be wrong… 2015-10-20T19:32:40Z Bicyclidine: well, 'only' out of mapcar and mapcan and all, yeah, which are all list exclusive. 2015-10-20T19:33:04Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T19:33:24Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:33:59Z Xach: didi: Sorry, right. 2015-10-20T19:34:36Z eazar001 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T19:34:37Z shka: didi: why not just loop? 2015-10-20T19:34:52Z didi: shka: Can loop map over sequences? 2015-10-20T19:34:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:35:04Z Xach: no. 2015-10-20T19:35:49Z didi: I thought so too. There is `in' and `across', but no union of them. 2015-10-20T19:35:55Z zacts: is there a trivialish way to get static typing into common lisp a la Haskell (even if not exactly like Haskell)? 2015-10-20T19:36:17Z Bicyclidine: no. HM inference doesn't work for CL types. 2015-10-20T19:36:22Z zacts: or maybe even something like typed racket (from scheme)? (let me know if you need links to typed racket) 2015-10-20T19:36:27Z zacts: ah ok 2015-10-20T19:36:31Z Bicyclidine: though i'm guessing what you mean by "a la Haskell". 2015-10-20T19:36:46Z zacts: I guess, tbh I'm still a newbie 2015-10-20T19:36:55Z zacts: but I'm wondering if you can program Lisp Haskellish 2015-10-20T19:37:02Z zacts: note the _ish_ postfix there 2015-10-20T19:37:11Z zacts: I don't mean necessarily exacctly like Haskell 2015-10-20T19:37:14Z zwdr: Well, there is Typed Racket 2015-10-20T19:37:21Z zwdr: which is pretty nice! 2015-10-20T19:37:22Z zacts: indeed, that's what I just mentioned 2015-10-20T19:37:29Z zacts: can Common Lisp do typed racketish? 2015-10-20T19:37:53Z zwdr: its a scheme though, if that's important to you 2015-10-20T19:37:57Z zacts: yeah 2015-10-20T19:38:00Z zacts: I love scheme the most 2015-10-20T19:38:01Z Bicyclidine: what i mean is, there's a lot of things that "ish" could mean. 2015-10-20T19:38:09Z zacts: but, some libraries and other things are in Common Lisp 2015-10-20T19:38:11Z zwdr: I guess you could implement it :s 2015-10-20T19:38:22Z Bicyclidine: there's monads for lisp and such, but that might not be what you are thinking of, and i'm bad at guessing. 2015-10-20T19:38:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-20T19:38:40Z zacts: Bicyclidine: honestly I don't think I know enough to know what I'm asking specifically 2015-10-20T19:38:55Z Shinmera: Well what do you want to do then? 2015-10-20T19:38:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-20T19:39:02Z zacts: my reason for asking is to know if I will ever want to learn Haskell 2015-10-20T19:39:03Z White_Flame: zacts: I think the common advice would be to learn CL first, then determine how much benefit or impedance mismatch it would have with other languages' features 2015-10-20T19:39:05Z Bicyclidine: then, uh, i wouldn't hold out for a good answer, you kow? 2015-10-20T19:39:13Z Bicyclidine: yeah, sure, learn haskell. it's fun. 2015-10-20T19:39:18Z zacts: ok 2015-10-20T19:39:30Z Shinmera: Learning new languages is (almost) always a good idea. 2015-10-20T19:39:36Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:39:36Z zacts: ok 2015-10-20T19:39:38Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:39:39Z zacts: :-) 2015-10-20T19:39:45Z zwdr: man, I can't decide between OCaml and Haskell 2015-10-20T19:39:47Z zwdr: but anyway 2015-10-20T19:39:51Z White_Flame: both 2015-10-20T19:40:00Z zwdr: aa, if I only had the time 2015-10-20T19:40:11Z White_Flame: then flip a coin 2015-10-20T19:40:19Z zwdr: heh, I should yea 2015-10-20T19:40:32Z shka: didi: but i think iterate can do it 2015-10-20T19:40:37Z zwdr: and I gotta try out more with CL macros too 2015-10-20T19:41:11Z zwdr: anaphoric and pandoric macros did open some really cool perspectives to me 2015-10-20T19:41:37Z phf: learn haskell, read oleg kiselyov's papers, learn ocaml, say to fuck with it, go back to lisp 2015-10-20T19:41:45Z shka: lol 2015-10-20T19:41:57Z didi: shka: I might one day try iterate. I thought of trying series too, but never did. 2015-10-20T19:42:06Z TMA: zwdr: make yourself some time. 2015-10-20T19:42:18Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:42:31Z TMA: zwdr: they're both worth it before returning to lisp :) 2015-10-20T19:42:46Z zwdr: TMA: yea, I'll learn both, just don't know which first 2015-10-20T19:42:58Z jasom: Though you *will* miss algebraic data types 2015-10-20T19:42:58Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:43:11Z dwchandler: zwdr: haskell. there, problem solved. 2015-10-20T19:43:13Z dwchandler: :) 2015-10-20T19:43:48Z zwdr: I should just implement a Haskell to OCaml compiler in CL-Macros 2015-10-20T19:43:54Z zwdr: so I learn everything at once :s 2015-10-20T19:44:14Z jasom: zwdr: haskell is more foreign feeling than ML, so if you want something that really feels different, go with that, if you want to experience some new language choices in something that feels more familiar, go with an ML 2015-10-20T19:44:26Z phf: if you want to learn concepts behind without necessarily leaving lisp, there's always qi/shen 2015-10-20T19:44:30Z zwdr: yea, thanks, thats good advice 2015-10-20T19:45:00Z jasom: phf: except there is much less material on learning qi/shen than there is on learning haskell or ml 2015-10-20T19:45:32Z theethicalegoist: is there a simple way to concatenate strings if they're in a list? I feel like I'm missing something obvious 2015-10-20T19:45:56Z shka: theethicalegoist: reduce 2015-10-20T19:45:57Z jasom: theethicalegoist: (apply #'concatenate 'string list-of-strings) 2015-10-20T19:46:03Z Shinmera: theethicalegoist: (format NIL "~{~a~}" strings) 2015-10-20T19:46:11Z jasom: theethicalegoist: or (format nil "~{~A~}: strings) 2015-10-20T19:46:25Z shka: theethicalegoist: there, actually not just one way :D 2015-10-20T19:46:33Z jasom: shka: reduce is never the best way 2015-10-20T19:46:34Z theethicalegoist: thanks guys 2015-10-20T19:46:55Z zwdr: why is that, reduce seems more idiomatic? 2015-10-20T19:46:55Z jasom: shka: if you have too many for apply to work, then you're going to care about the n^2 performance of reduce 2015-10-20T19:47:21Z shka: huh? 2015-10-20T19:47:30Z shka: n² for reduce? 2015-10-20T19:47:32Z earl-ducaine: On the note of Symbolics copyrights. All Genera code has the following comment in the header: 2015-10-20T19:47:34Z earl-ducaine: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157213 2015-10-20T19:47:45Z Shinmera: reduce is perfectly fine if you need to operate on numbers. 2015-10-20T19:48:32Z Shinmera: It's a stupid idea for concatenating though, sure. 2015-10-20T19:48:38Z earl-ducaine: Which seems to imply that the government has the unrestricted right to release Genera source code, starting in 2018. 2015-10-20T19:48:40Z jasom: shka: string concatenation is O(n) where n is the length of the string, and using reduce will do a concatenation m times where m is the number of strings 2015-10-20T19:49:14Z shka: so it is n*m 2015-10-20T19:49:27Z jasom: no 2015-10-20T19:49:46Z shka: i don't think it will be any worse than apply 2015-10-20T19:49:48Z jasom: Each append will generate a string of length equal to all strings seen so far 2015-10-20T19:50:14Z jasom: imagine that they are all of length 1, and you have 1000 strings (so a very simple case) 2015-10-20T19:50:33Z jasom: your first concatenate will be of cost 2, then the next 3, then then 4 ... 1000 2015-10-20T19:50:44Z shka: ok 2015-10-20T19:51:07Z jasom: so total cost of concatenating n length-1 strings with reduce is n*(n-1)/2 2015-10-20T19:51:14Z jasom: which is O(n^2) 2015-10-20T19:51:45Z mobius-eng: jasom: stupid question, why concatenate on string is O(n)? 2015-10-20T19:51:58Z resttime: In other words REDUCE contructs a new string with each subsequent arguement it is given am I right? 2015-10-20T19:52:01Z Bicyclidine: because you have to copy the old strings into the new memory 2015-10-20T19:52:01Z jasom: mobius-eng: you need to copy each character from each string 2015-10-20T19:52:01Z mobius-eng: If string is list-pbased (like in Haskell) I understand 2015-10-20T19:52:07Z mobius-eng: OK 2015-10-20T19:52:09Z Bicyclidine: strings are not list based in CL 2015-10-20T19:52:23Z Bicyclidine: though appending lists is also O(n), so either way 2015-10-20T19:52:27Z mobius-eng: But you also can copy an array 2015-10-20T19:52:35Z jasom: mobius-eng: copying an array is O(n) 2015-10-20T19:52:39Z Bicyclidine: yeah, and that's O(n). 2015-10-20T19:52:50Z jasom: mobius-eng: and that's what strings are in lisp, vectors of characters 2015-10-20T19:53:09Z Bicyclidine: i mean, even before O times, you know that reduce involves way more intermediates, which means way more allocation, which means slow. 2015-10-20T19:53:10Z shka: sooo 2015-10-20T19:53:14Z mobius-eng: Ok, allocating is O(1), but copying will be O(n) 2015-10-20T19:53:19Z shka: format is smart enough to deal with it? 2015-10-20T19:53:33Z jasom: shka: almost certainly 2015-10-20T19:53:34Z Bicyclidine: format will write to a string stream. dunno how fast that is 2015-10-20T19:53:37Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:53:42Z jasom: Bicyclidine: really, really fast 2015-10-20T19:53:50Z Bicyclidine: really, really fast i guess 2015-10-20T19:53:58Z jasom: almost all implementations have optimized the heck out of their string-output-streams 2015-10-20T19:54:01Z shka: btw, i never figured what we are supposed to use for streams 2015-10-20T19:54:04Z mobius-eng: I guess it's like StringBuilder in other languages 2015-10-20T19:54:19Z phf: shka: format uses the general purpose string output trick, which is (with-output-to-string (output) (princ ... output) ...) 2015-10-20T19:55:12Z phf: which is almost always what you reach for when you've exhausted flexibility of (concatenate ...) and format 2015-10-20T19:55:24Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T19:55:31Z shka: aha 2015-10-20T19:55:45Z shka: good to know, really 2015-10-20T19:56:36Z mobius-eng: Has anybody used F2CL with ODEPACK? 2015-10-20T19:56:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-20T19:57:01Z jasom: mobius-eng: a string-output stream works kind of like an append only StringBuilder, but it presents the same interface as e.g. an open file or socket would to you for use in lisp 2015-10-20T19:57:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T19:57:49Z shka: i don't like format 2015-10-20T19:58:08Z shka: so i would just mapcar with stream-output 2015-10-20T19:58:18Z shka: or rather: mapc 2015-10-20T19:58:23Z fantomik quit (Quit: fantomik) 2015-10-20T19:58:39Z jasom: mobius-eng: google seems to think so: https://trac.common-lisp.net/f2cl/browser/packages/odepack.asd 2015-10-20T19:59:20Z Yanez: shka: you don't like format?!? 2015-10-20T19:59:22Z resttime: I like to think of FORMAT as what printf() should be more like. 2015-10-20T19:59:42Z jasom wonders what the first formatted-output function was 2015-10-20T19:59:54Z Bicyclidine: just in CL, or ever? 2015-10-20T20:00:13Z jasom: ever 2015-10-20T20:00:14Z shka: Yanez: yeah :/ 2015-10-20T20:00:20Z resttime: Errr, or at least a version if the "concept" of printf() were continued to be developed. 2015-10-20T20:00:22Z jasom: maybe FORMAT from Fortran? 2015-10-20T20:00:40Z Yanez: shka: why don't you like it exactly? It's incredibly powerful... 2015-10-20T20:01:00Z resttime: s/continued to be/further 2015-10-20T20:01:05Z mobius-eng: jasom: I can see this file under F2CL packages, what is strange is that there no *.LISP conversions of Fortran, while there are for other pakages... 2015-10-20T20:01:35Z mobius-eng: and it is not listed in QUICKLISP 2015-10-20T20:01:51Z phf: i like (setf (format ...)) 2015-10-20T20:02:23Z shka: Yanez: it is, but I feel dirty each time I'm using it for something complicated 2015-10-20T20:02:29Z Yanez: why? 2015-10-20T20:02:37Z Bicyclidine: phf: er, what. 2015-10-20T20:02:56Z knicklux_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:03:05Z jasom: shka: "~{~A~}" isn't exactly complicated 2015-10-20T20:03:16Z shka: Yanez: it just feels like i'm being to clever for my own good 2015-10-20T20:03:35Z phf: Bicyclidine: abandon all hope http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/format-setf.lisp 2015-10-20T20:04:22Z shka: "The following is not very good code." 2015-10-20T20:04:41Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:04:54Z Yanez: I still don't understand how it's supposed to work... 2015-10-20T20:04:58Z Bicyclidine: jesus mary and joseph. 2015-10-20T20:05:30Z Yanez: shka: but the nice thing about format (as with a lot of other Lisp features) is you can start simple, and then progress to more advanced things as you get more comfortable 2015-10-20T20:06:01Z jasom: I know the name Cristophe Rhodes from somewhere 2015-10-20T20:06:14Z Yanez: I'm still learning new things about Loop after more than 20 years of Lisp... 2015-10-20T20:06:27Z Bicyclidine: jasom: he did the SEQUENCES extension, among other things 2015-10-20T20:06:33Z jasom: ah 2015-10-20T20:06:41Z zwdr: dang, I havent even touched lisp a year ago 2015-10-20T20:06:58Z shka: Yanez: probabbly what you state is true, but i have daytime job that does not involve lisp, and when i'm returning home and feel like doing some lisp i rarely do anything interesting with strings… 2015-10-20T20:07:20Z phf: chrodes is one of the sbcl core devs 2015-10-20T20:07:36Z shka: and it is not like i will get common lisp job anytime soon 2015-10-20T20:08:05Z zwdr: sadly there arent much of those :c 2015-10-20T20:08:23Z shka: yup 2015-10-20T20:08:36Z shka: and this is unlikely to change 2015-10-20T20:08:40Z shka: but whatever 2015-10-20T20:08:43Z shka: i have some fun 2015-10-20T20:08:57Z zwdr: yea, thats the most important thing about programming! 2015-10-20T20:08:59Z shka: though string operations are not that interesting 2015-10-20T20:09:10Z shka: so i guess i will never learn format 2015-10-20T20:09:26Z shka: ;-) 2015-10-20T20:11:02Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:11:32Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:11:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:13:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:13:34Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:14:08Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T20:14:22Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:16:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T20:16:56Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T20:17:05Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:18:27Z dim: is there a portable way to figure out how many cores/os-threads are available from within Common Lisp? (with-open-file (s "/proc/cpuinfo") ...) comes to mind for linux systems, but that's not very portable... 2015-10-20T20:19:06Z Shinmera: Not really, no. I'm working on a lib to give CPU usage info on the major platforms though. 2015-10-20T20:19:22Z Shinmera: You could ab/use it for that once it's done. 2015-10-20T20:19:44Z dim: another dependency I would have to package for debian? ;-) 2015-10-20T20:20:08Z shka: dim: i think that it is impossible, because lparallel asks user 2015-10-20T20:20:14Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/system-load 2015-10-20T20:20:20Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:20:22Z shka: which seems to be reasonable approach 2015-10-20T20:20:35Z Shinmera: I'll be working on OS X support shortly. 2015-10-20T20:20:44Z Shinmera: And windows after a while, probably. 2015-10-20T20:20:51Z dim: shka: I use lparallel too, yeah 2015-10-20T20:21:10Z Yanez: shka: string operations can be pretty interesting :) 2015-10-20T20:21:32Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:21:39Z Yanez: shka: try (format t "~r" ...) one of these days... and then try to reimplement it in some other language :) 2015-10-20T20:22:21Z Bicyclidine: french, say 2015-10-20T20:22:36Z dim: just because my laptop has 4 cores I might consider 4 threads the default in pgloader and then offer control over it to the user 2015-10-20T20:22:41Z shka: Yanez: provide any example? 2015-10-20T20:22:56Z Bicyclidine: it writes it as an english cardinal. 2015-10-20T20:23:00Z Yanez: dim: using "portable" in a sentence in which you're asking about hardware sounds a bit contradictory 2015-10-20T20:23:07Z shka: dim: actually… 8 could be better 2015-10-20T20:23:11Z p8m: dim: Implement an algorithm that is trivially parallizable and spawn threads until you stop scaling. You have that many - 1 cores 2015-10-20T20:23:14Z Bicyclidine: (format t "~r" 1891) => "one thousand eight hundred ninety one" 2015-10-20T20:23:38Z shka: uh 2015-10-20T20:23:50Z shka: why would anybody need that feature? 2015-10-20T20:23:58Z shka: ok 2015-10-20T20:24:03Z Yanez: shka: (format t "~r apple~:p~%" (random 5)) => this could print "zero apples", "one apple", "two apples", etc... 2015-10-20T20:24:08Z shka: i think it is actually cool 2015-10-20T20:24:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:24:21Z phf: i use it when i fill out checks.. 2015-10-20T20:24:49Z shka: Yanez: do you know that you can use format to convert to roman numbers? 2015-10-20T20:25:30Z Yanez: shka: of course... both standard and archaic 2015-10-20T20:25:48Z Yanez: shka: also try this: (format t "On the ~:r day of Christmas..." (random 10)) 2015-10-20T20:25:52Z shka: sometimes i'm wonder, why it was implemented 2015-10-20T20:26:20Z Yanez: shka: the first application that comes to mind is page numbers in documents 2015-10-20T20:26:24Z Yanez: or in numbered lists 2015-10-20T20:26:27Z Bicyclidine: my guess: some student wrote it as a research project in the 1970s and it got out of hand 2015-10-20T20:26:31Z Yanez: chapter I, chapter II, etc 2015-10-20T20:26:48Z shka: Yanez: no way 2015-10-20T20:26:56Z Yanez: ? 2015-10-20T20:27:17Z shka: ~:r is cool 2015-10-20T20:27:31Z shka: i had no idea 2015-10-20T20:27:48Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T20:27:55Z shka: but well, i can imagine that it was used in genera 2015-10-20T20:28:12Z Yanez: shka: then you can start playing around with ~(~), ~{~}, and ~[~] 2015-10-20T20:28:24Z shka: for like: twentieth day of july 2015-10-20T20:28:32Z shka: pretty neat 2015-10-20T20:28:58Z shka: nah, no time for that right now 2015-10-20T20:29:33Z Yanez: shka: (let ((x (random 10))) (format t "~a is ~:[odd~;even~]" x (evenp x))) 2015-10-20T20:29:53Z Guest52734 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:31:21Z shka: sure, who needs if when there is format 2015-10-20T20:31:23Z shka: :P 2015-10-20T20:32:06Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:33:30Z antoszka: phf: I fill my checks with similar code too, except its in Polish and that's where lack of FORMAT i17n bit me in the ass… 2015-10-20T20:34:27Z dindon joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:34:40Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-20T20:34:50Z antoszka: Obviously for a number of languages making a plural form is far more complex than in English, but still that'd be fun to have. 2015-10-20T20:35:22Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:35:55Z shka: antoszka: well, time to implement format i17n 2015-10-20T20:36:07Z shka: for to glory of the lisp gods 2015-10-20T20:36:12Z phf: one could probably come up with a resonable data driven way to spec it out, but then you have to maintain tables of that knowledge, etc. 2015-10-20T20:36:30Z nyef: Note that even English has some fairly tricky plural forms. 2015-10-20T20:36:37Z antoszka: True. 2015-10-20T20:36:45Z phf: i find common lisp lack of i17n endearing in this case, in that 70s cold war kind of way :p 2015-10-20T20:36:54Z antoszka: Not that other then oxen and the like come to mind… 2015-10-20T20:37:11Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:37:28Z nyef: Compare DAY/DAYS to STY/STIES. 2015-10-20T20:37:55Z antoszka: That's fairy simple from a programmer's POV, I think. 2015-10-20T20:37:56Z Shinmera: nyef: Clearly we need to rewrite English to make format compliant. 2015-10-20T20:37:59Z Bicyclidine: gotta have flags for octpuses/octopi/octopodes 2015-10-20T20:38:00Z antoszka: fairly* 2015-10-20T20:38:02Z dTal: someone should make a lisp with the philosophy of Perl 2015-10-20T20:38:04Z nyef: And then BOX/BOXES. 2015-10-20T20:38:09Z Bicyclidine: antoszka, nyef: well that's the one with a ~p flag 2015-10-20T20:38:48Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T20:39:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:39:48Z Bicyclidine: potatoes versus photos, you're basically doomed at some point 2015-10-20T20:40:36Z shka: we clearly need to build time machine 2015-10-20T20:40:43Z shka: and change history of english 2015-10-20T20:41:05Z Bicyclidine: phonetic regularly wouldn't last, cos you got people like me that say things like "cos" 2015-10-20T20:41:38Z shka: Bicyclidine: PURGE THE UNCLEAN!!!!!!! 2015-10-20T20:42:58Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-20T20:43:02Z phf: "a long, painful history of pluralization" 2015-10-20T20:43:18Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:43:24Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:43:26Z nyef: phf: Only one history? It's not plural? 2015-10-20T20:46:25Z Bicyclidine: oh, that's the example i used before, "the six stones weighed six stone" 2015-10-20T20:46:49Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:47:05Z attila_lendvai: so, there's no impl independent way to get errno without using cffi-growel? 2015-10-20T20:47:41Z Bicyclidine: Probably not, I mean errno isn't too strictly defined. 2015-10-20T20:47:57Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:48:26Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:48:44Z dim: is that a good way to do it: (handler-case ... (specific-condition (e) (cond ((more-specific-again e) ...) (t (error e))))) 2015-10-20T20:49:10Z dim: it being handle a narrow specific case of a condition and let the other sub-cases bubble up the condition handling? 2015-10-20T20:49:22Z Bicyclidine: why not just have them as different entries in the handler-case? 2015-10-20T20:49:33Z dim: I don't own the lib that does that 2015-10-20T20:49:50Z Bicyclidine: Does what? 2015-10-20T20:50:08Z dim: cl-postgres-error:insufficient-resources doesn't provide cl-postgres-error:too-many-connections as a subcase 2015-10-20T20:50:21Z dim: when I have too-many-connections, I want to retry connecting 2015-10-20T20:50:41Z Bicyclidine: handler-case takes types. you can do (handler-case ((and specific-condition (satisfies more-specific-again)) (e) ...) ...) 2015-10-20T20:50:42Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-20T20:50:53Z dim: in other cases (disk_full, out_of_memory, configuration_limit_exceeded), not so much 2015-10-20T20:51:05Z dim: that said, configuration_limit_exceeded might be another case when I want to do the same thing 2015-10-20T20:51:18Z dim: satisfies? 2015-10-20T20:51:20Z Bicyclidine: well, cond is probably fine, though. 2015-10-20T20:51:24Z Bicyclidine: clhs satisfies 2015-10-20T20:51:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm 2015-10-20T20:51:26Z Bicyclidine: it's a type. 2015-10-20T20:52:20Z dim: oh wow 2015-10-20T20:52:30Z dim: might be a better way to do it, thx 2015-10-20T20:52:33Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T20:52:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T20:52:52Z dindon left #lisp 2015-10-20T20:53:26Z dim: maybe I should consider cl-postgres-error:deferror instead, really 2015-10-20T20:53:41Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:54:17Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T20:54:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:55:06Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T20:55:36Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-20T20:56:54Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-20T20:57:06Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:58:19Z knicklux_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-20T20:59:38Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:01:30Z hydan` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:03:20Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:04:18Z dim: it looks much better, except for formating the condition object 2015-10-20T21:05:07Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:06:18Z dim: ahah, my fault, using ~s rather than ~a, missed that change in my code 2015-10-20T21:06:21Z dim: ok, all good 2015-10-20T21:06:28Z dim: (cl-postgres-error::deferror "53300" too-many-connections cl-postgres-error:insufficient-resources) 2015-10-20T21:06:59Z dim: just doing that fixes it, then ((or too-many-connections configuration-limit-exceeded) (e) ...) 2015-10-20T21:07:19Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:07:22Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:08:02Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T21:08:12Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-20T21:08:46Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2015-10-20T21:10:13Z Guest39726 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:10:48Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:11:13Z Xach: I've actually been pleased with how SATISFIES lets me writes a really gross hack that looks at the text of an error, and then lets me use an abstract type in handling, so if the error changes, the code referring to it doesn't have to. 2015-10-20T21:11:38Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:11:38Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-20T21:12:09Z Shinmera: I'll give that points for creativity 2015-10-20T21:12:53Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:12:55Z dim: Xach: in this specific case the “gross hack” was a (string= "53300" (database-error-code e)) with the 53300 being defined by a standard, so it's not even that gross 2015-10-20T21:13:09Z Xach: not gross at all 2015-10-20T21:13:17Z Xach: well, maybe a trifle 2015-10-20T21:13:23Z dim: deferror beats it by so much it's not even fun 2015-10-20T21:13:34Z Xach: i had to handle "broken pipe" specially, but it wasn't a subtype 2015-10-20T21:13:37Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:13:40Z dim: so thanks Marijn for nice code 2015-10-20T21:13:43Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:13:52Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:14:29Z dim: oh the infamous broken pipe... so many things might hide there 2015-10-20T21:14:35Z dim: in my imagination at least ;-) 2015-10-20T21:14:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:15:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:16:24Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-20T21:18:56Z Shinmera: Speaking of type hackery: (deftype range (from to) (let ((name (intern (string (gensym "RANGE-"))))) (setf (fdefinition name) (lambda (x) (<= from x to))) `(satisfies ,name))) 2015-10-20T21:19:56Z pjb: if your from to are integer, `(integer ,from ,to) 2015-10-20T21:19:56Z Shinmera: Hmm, though, couldn't you just use the gensym itself to name the function? 2015-10-20T21:20:08Z fe[nl]ix: I smell all sorts of undefined behaviour there 2015-10-20T21:20:17Z pjb: otherwise `(float ,from ,to) 2015-10-20T21:21:49Z pjb: Of course, you can mix them: `(and (integer ,from) (float ,most-negative-long-float ,to) ) 2015-10-20T21:22:29Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:23:19Z didi: I thought of using (declare (type ...)) to define function domains. I didn't decide yet. 2015-10-20T21:24:04Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-20T21:24:33Z Bicyclidine: real has upper and lower limits, so i mean 2015-10-20T21:25:08Z Shinmera: Right. If I remember, the original case where I wanted something akin to the above where the values should be limited to a specific stepping. 2015-10-20T21:25:26Z Shinmera: *was where 2015-10-20T21:25:37Z dim: so, I have a nice refactoring that brings a *2 speedup in some cases (migrating databases with lots of small'ish tables) but at the expense of disabling per-table migration timings... 2015-10-20T21:25:48Z dim: looks like I have more work before I can push the patch series 2015-10-20T21:30:07Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-20T21:31:20Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:31:20Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-20T21:32:21Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:33:29Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-20T21:34:23Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:35:31Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:35:37Z dim: actually there's a trick, of course ;-) 2015-10-20T21:38:09Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:42:54Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:43:01Z dim: less wrong is not right still, but better already, sometimes 2015-10-20T21:43:17Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-20T21:46:13Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:46:38Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:49:02Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:50:56Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-20T21:51:48Z emaczen: How can I query with the MOP to give me all methods with 2 specializers etc... 2015-10-20T21:52:17Z fp0 joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:52:23Z nyef: All methods with two required parameters? 2015-10-20T21:52:30Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:52:41Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-20T21:54:17Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:54:40Z Guest52734 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-10-20T21:54:59Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-20T21:55:49Z emaczen: nyef: I thought they were called specializers? 2015-10-20T21:56:19Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-20T21:57:25Z Bicyclidine: methods can have unspecialized parameters. 2015-10-20T21:57:49Z dim: tests still passing locally, pushed... up to travis and then the distributed testing setup (hi users!) now ;-) 2015-10-20T21:57:55Z nyef: How can you have unspecialized parameters, given that you can specialize to objects of type T? 2015-10-20T21:58:00Z emaczen: Don't you say an unspecialized parameter is specialized on "t"? 2015-10-20T21:58:38Z Bicyclidine: well, in source text specializing on T is different from not specializing, i forget if it extends to methods or not 2015-10-20T21:58:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-20T21:58:50Z Bicyclidine: i mean, the method objects 2015-10-20T21:59:30Z Bicyclidine: you could just two anything with two required parameters, i guess. 2015-10-20T22:00:40Z nyef: Is the difference semantic, or merely syntactic? 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-21T01:15:11Z PuercoPop: On the 'duplication of effort' note, I remembered there are actually two projects cl named lispkit, which have similar goals https://github.com/vlnx/lispkit 2015-10-21T01:15:23Z pillton: Shinerma: I have satisfies predicates like your range one. 2015-10-21T01:15:45Z pillton: Shinmera: You need to cache the function name so that the same ranges map to the same function name. 2015-10-21T01:15:55Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:16:24Z pillton: (subtypep '(range 0 1) '(range 0 1)) won't work otherwise. 2015-10-21T01:17:06Z lisp875 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:17:14Z lisp875: hello 2015-10-21T01:18:12Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:18:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:19:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:20:18Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-21T01:21:21Z lisp875 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T01:24:28Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T01:25:18Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T01:30:32Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-21T01:38:55Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:40:00Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:41:39Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-21T01:42:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:45:24Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:46:06Z nikki93__ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:46:23Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-21T01:49:38Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T01:51:36Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-21T01:52:53Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-21T01:55:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:00:03Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T02:00:13Z aap joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:00:20Z zymurgy quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-21T02:03:08Z papachan_ is now known as papachan 2015-10-21T02:03:31Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:03:56Z aap_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:07:50Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-21T02:10:09Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:11:39Z nikki93__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T02:13:25Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:22:49Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:23:35Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:25:54Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:26:37Z RussT1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-21T02:28:42Z prphp_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:33:11Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-21T02:33:33Z resttime left #lisp 2015-10-21T02:37:23Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:39:48Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:39:48Z earl-ducaine_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-21T02:42:18Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:46:54Z prphp_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-21T02:48:43Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-21T02:52:47Z IlMago quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-21T02:59:26Z nicdev` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T03:02:58Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-21T03:03:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:03:57Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:04:48Z jasom: axion: I think lisp mode also enables that 2015-10-21T03:06:06Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:06:06Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T03:07:59Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T03:09:39Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:10:04Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-21T03:11:54Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:14:27Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:17:24Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:17:58Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-21T03:22:24Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:23:01Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-21T03:23:06Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-21T03:25:18Z drmeister: How many memos can minion handle? 2015-10-21T03:25:53Z drmeister: To one person at a time? 2015-10-21T03:29:23Z jasom: minion: how many memos can you handle 2015-10-21T03:29:23Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 2015-10-21T03:29:43Z pillton: I presume there is a limit to avoid a flood. 2015-10-21T03:29:45Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:33:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T03:41:10Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:42:45Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T03:43:47Z nyef: pillton: Nice presumption. I wouldn't be so sure. 2015-10-21T03:44:46Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:45:45Z hydan` joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:50:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are the various common-lisp.net mailing lists stil around? 2015-10-21T03:50:44Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:50:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or at least archives? 2015-10-21T03:51:32Z |3b|: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo 2015-10-21T03:53:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, I've been wondering why all the links on the wiki are broken. 2015-10-21T03:53:55Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T03:55:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-21T03:55:54Z pillton: nyef: The gap between perception and reality has been well studied and ignored. 2015-10-21T04:01:31Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:02:22Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-21T04:02:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:02:50Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-21T04:02:50Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:04:10Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:07:08Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-21T04:09:33Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-10-21T04:10:36Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:11:20Z _sjs` joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:14:27Z kami joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:14:45Z kami left #lisp 2015-10-21T04:19:03Z ryouma` joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:19:26Z ryouma`: how do i determine which elements in list have more than one element in list? 2015-10-21T04:20:14Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:20:23Z H4ns: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (> (length x) 1)) list) 2015-10-21T04:21:59Z ryouma`: H4ns: nsquared is the way most people would do this? 2015-10-21T04:22:37Z H4ns: ryouma`: i don't care about most people. they'd not use common lisp anyway. 2015-10-21T04:23:07Z ryouma`: imagine list is '(1 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 7). i want the result to be '(4 6). 2015-10-21T04:23:11Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:23:30Z H4ns: ryouma`: remove-duplicates would work for that 2015-10-21T04:23:46Z ryouma`: well, my y for this x is that i want to modify the elements 2015-10-21T04:24:06Z ryouma`: (not collect the ones that are duplicates) 2015-10-21T04:24:30Z Bike: if it's sorted there's a loop to do it, i gues. 2015-10-21T04:24:32Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-21T04:24:34Z H4ns: ryouma`: now is the point where you grab out for the book that has "common lisp" in its title and promises you to teach you how one programs in common lisp. 2015-10-21T04:25:10Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T04:25:52Z ryouma`: dunno, i've read cltl2 cover to cover twice and a few other books, and programmed for many years in cl, but it was a while back.. afk. 2015-10-21T04:30:59Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:31:37Z zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-21T04:33:36Z yggds joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:33:50Z yggds left #lisp 2015-10-21T04:33:56Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:34:31Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:35:10Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T04:39:06Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T04:40:10Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:40:17Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-21T04:42:26Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:49:40Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:52:00Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-21T04:53:00Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-10-21T04:53:08Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-21T04:55:43Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-21T04:59:11Z luis quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-10-21T04:59:11Z capitaomorte quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-10-21T04:59:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T05:00:17Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T05:01:30Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-21T05:03:04Z mwehner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-21T05:03:38Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-21T05:05:50Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-21T05:06:08Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:08:47Z drmeister: Hi beach 2015-10-21T05:10:52Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:11:08Z beach: drmeister: I am about to define the instruction mixin class we were talking about. 2015-10-21T05:13:25Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-21T05:13:42Z phax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T05:14:46Z drmeister: Excellent 2015-10-21T05:14:58Z blubjr: what class 2015-10-21T05:14:59Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T05:15:11Z drmeister: I'm trying to compile Clasp with different optimization levels until the MPS version breaks. 2015-10-21T05:15:32Z drmeister: It's breaking with -O3 and not with -O0 2015-10-21T05:15:36Z drmeister: Fun 2015-10-21T05:15:46Z beach: blubjr: SIDE-EFFECT-MIXIN for instructions with side effects. 2015-10-21T05:15:54Z Bike: it could be worse, drmeister, it could be the other way around 2015-10-21T05:15:58Z beach: drmeister: I read that in the logs. Sounds bad. 2015-10-21T05:24:16Z Fullma joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:28:49Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-21T05:37:37Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:39:39Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-21T05:39:54Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T05:42:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:43:22Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-10-21T05:43:22Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:44:19Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:45:15Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-21T05:45:36Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:47:04Z |3b| joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:48:29Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-21T05:51:46Z dytrivedi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T05:53:10Z jlarocco_: i've noticed that occasionally when I'm using the slime repl it won't show available key arguments for a function call 2015-10-21T05:54:21Z jlarocco_: like right now I've used (ql:quickload 'this) and (ql:quickload 'that), and both this and that packages export a function named foo, and each takes keyword arguments 2015-10-21T05:54:44Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:55:23Z jlarocco_: if I type (this:foo and then tab I see the available keyword arguments under the mode line 2015-10-21T05:55:38Z jlarocco_: but if I type (that:foo and then tab, it only shows (that:foo) with no available arguments 2015-10-21T05:56:12Z jlarocco_: (this:f and then tab will auto-complete to (this:foo, so it's working to some extent 2015-10-21T05:56:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T05:56:16Z jlarocco_: any ideas? 2015-10-21T05:57:23Z jlarocco_: oops, meant to add that (that:f and then tab also auto-completes to (that:foo 2015-10-21T05:58:39Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:58:47Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-21T05:59:50Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2015-10-21T05:59:57Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:00:17Z |3b| 's only suggestion is to make sure that:foo actually names a function, since packages export symbols not functions 2015-10-21T06:00:25Z Guest62573 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:00:43Z tifa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:00:53Z |3b|: possibly also look at the definition and see if it is defined unusually 2015-10-21T06:00:54Z Guest62573: is there anybody by the name of xallee that even programs inCL? 2015-10-21T06:01:14Z Guest62573: i love CLOS and meta 2015-10-21T06:01:21Z Shinmera: pillton: Yes of course. I wanted to keep it short enough for an IRC paste. 2015-10-21T06:01:24Z Guest62573: give me a reason to use it 2015-10-21T06:01:32Z Guest62573: i have power to use it 2015-10-21T06:01:33Z |3b|: Guest62573: i doubt anyone has enumerated all of the CL programmers in enough detail to be able to answer that question 2015-10-21T06:01:42Z Guest62573: give me reason to use it over c# 2015-10-21T06:01:46Z resttime: You love it 2015-10-21T06:01:49Z jlarocco_: yep, both export it, and I can call the function just fine 2015-10-21T06:01:59Z Guest62573: from a business 2015-10-21T06:02:08Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:02:08Z resttime: You love it 2015-10-21T06:02:17Z jlarocco_: can even give appropriate keyword arguments and get expected results 2015-10-21T06:02:18Z Guest62573: i'll divorce client from server completely 2015-10-21T06:02:18Z |3b|: Guest62573: just use c# 2015-10-21T06:02:28Z Guest62573: no razor 2015-10-21T06:02:38Z johann__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T06:02:52Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T06:03:05Z Guest62573: asp.net 5 + common lisp would be hot! 2015-10-21T06:03:12Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:03:18Z Guest62573: pure pipeline 2015-10-21T06:03:39Z Guest62573: CL is just a rendering engine 2015-10-21T06:03:54Z jlarocco_: unbearably hot, no doubt 2015-10-21T06:04:00Z jlarocco_ rolls eyes 2015-10-21T06:04:24Z tifa joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:04:32Z Guest62573: in ASP.Net 5 i just plug in the pipeline...there is no mvc...you just plug in what you want 2015-10-21T06:05:00Z Guest62573: azure kicks ass 2015-10-21T06:05:16Z Shinmera: Cool story bro. You can tell it someplace else. 2015-10-21T06:05:28Z Guest62573: it does...i'm linux dude from 1996, ,but azure does kick ass 2015-10-21T06:05:40Z Guest62573: doesn't matter 2015-10-21T06:05:52Z Guest62573: just give me virtual machines i can use 2015-10-21T06:06:08Z Guest62573: some of us grow up 2015-10-21T06:06:32Z Guest62573: where can i throw out a CL VM 2015-10-21T06:06:38Z Guest62573: just to fuck around 2015-10-21T06:07:32Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:07:45Z Guest62573: I'd love instead of PHP asshole shit that i don't need a awesome SBCL ijnstance 2015-10-21T06:08:19Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:08:26Z Guest62573: CL sucks, but ..... 2015-10-21T06:08:41Z Guest62573: I love a machine that i can play with on the fly 2015-10-21T06:08:45Z Guest62573: and no smalltalk 2015-10-21T06:09:04Z |3b|: maybe you want forth? 2015-10-21T06:09:37Z resttime: |3b|: I suspect that "it" is not alive 2015-10-21T06:10:02Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:10:35Z Guest62573: any dev environment that i can't play with on the fly sucks 2015-10-21T06:10:41Z Guest62573: and i want breakpoints 2015-10-21T06:10:51Z Guest62573: and inspect and modify on the fly 2015-10-21T06:11:02Z Guest62573: that's how we should program 2015-10-21T06:11:04Z loke: Guest2510: That'd be Emacs. 2015-10-21T06:11:24Z loke: You can run SBCL on any cloud service. 2015-10-21T06:11:43Z Guest62573: runs in azure? 2015-10-21T06:12:01Z loke: I run a CL web application on Google Cloud Compute. But Azure works fine. 2015-10-21T06:12:03Z loke: too 2015-10-21T06:12:10Z loke: They're all just plain Linux machines. 2015-10-21T06:12:20Z Guest62573: sure, yeah 2015-10-21T06:12:26Z Guest62573: i just need pipes 2015-10-21T06:13:05Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:13:24Z Guest62573: it still sucks 2015-10-21T06:13:39Z Guest62573: wouldn't it be nice to be able to live program all the way down 2015-10-21T06:13:47Z Guest62573: like you could on lisp machines 2015-10-21T06:14:23Z Guest62573: i breakpoint and redo my entire environment because it sucks 2015-10-21T06:18:59Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:19:06Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:19:25Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:20:03Z Guest62573 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-21T06:28:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:32:06Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:32:39Z kp666 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-21T06:33:04Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:35:37Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T06:35:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:37:30Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:40:19Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:40:45Z kp666 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T06:41:58Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:45:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:46:52Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:47:40Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:47:50Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:48:11Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T06:48:16Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T06:50:26Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:50:58Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T06:51:27Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T06:51:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:53:37Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:53:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:56:03Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-21T06:59:25Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:03:24Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:03:26Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:03:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:04:45Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:04:57Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:05:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:05:50Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:06:28Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:07:53Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:08:40Z sword`` joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:09:47Z lifted joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:10:31Z sword` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:12:47Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T07:13:27Z p8m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:14:30Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:15:06Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:15:06Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:15:15Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:15:23Z Bahman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:15:35Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:15:38Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:15:56Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:16:05Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:18:27Z Guest58751 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:19:55Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:19:56Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:20:42Z lifted quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T07:24:31Z lifted joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:24:36Z p8m joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:24:57Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T07:25:20Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T07:25:36Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:25:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:26:32Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:27:46Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:28:30Z wglb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:35:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:36:47Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:38:08Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:38:58Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:39:50Z keen______ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:39:54Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:40:54Z keen_____ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:41:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:42:33Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-21T07:43:57Z lifted quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T07:51:45Z samssammerz: Are there any decent Lisp libraries for writing simple http clients besides Drakma? Drakma looks promising, but I'm just wondering if anyone feels that there are complementary/better options that I should look into? 2015-10-21T07:51:57Z p_l: drakma? ;) 2015-10-21T07:52:18Z samssammerz: as in, "just use it"? 2015-10-21T07:52:34Z samssammerz: or "what the f**k is drakma"? 2015-10-21T07:53:02Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:53:07Z jackdaniel: I think drakma is the best available option 2015-10-21T07:53:38Z pjb: samssammerz: what more do you want than a single function to call to get your resource? 2015-10-21T07:53:40Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:53:48Z pjb: samssammerz: what could be simplier? 2015-10-21T07:53:56Z pjb: samssammerz: mind reading? 2015-10-21T07:54:13Z samssammerz: Can Lisp do that? 2015-10-21T07:54:17Z pjb: samssammerz: you'd need devices for that! And there's still a learning phases that's long and boring. 2015-10-21T07:54:17Z jackdaniel: obv 2015-10-21T07:54:19Z jackdaniel: ;) 2015-10-21T07:54:42Z Shinmera: There's also https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador 2015-10-21T07:54:58Z jackdaniel: re-shape the wheel? 2015-10-21T07:55:06Z pjb: https://emotiv.com/ 2015-10-21T07:56:27Z samssammerz: pjb, As far as my reasons for wanting to explore other options: basically, it's just that I'm new to Lisp, and am interested in writing web crawlers and want to read some well-written http client code in Lisp to see common idioms etc ... 2015-10-21T07:56:58Z pjb: There's a ton of code out there, and multiple libraries for each functionality. 2015-10-21T07:56:59Z jackdaniel: samssammerz: then Edi Weitz libraries are very good option. They are well written and documented 2015-10-21T07:57:11Z trinitr0n: So how many people here gots lisp machines? 2015-10-21T07:57:20Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-21T07:57:20Z jackdaniel: samssammerz: very enjoyable to read 2015-10-21T07:57:47Z samssammerz: thanks y'all -- I'll take a look at the projects you suggested 2015-10-21T07:57:50Z pjb: trinitr0n: everybody has an GNU emacs lisp machine. 2015-10-21T07:57:56Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:58:17Z pjb: trinitr0n: any CL implementation is basically a lisp machine (but eg. MoCL, clicc). 2015-10-21T07:58:29Z trinitr0n: aye. but you know what I mean. 2015-10-21T07:58:35Z pjb: trinitr0n: Have a look at Movitz and Mezzano. 2015-10-21T07:58:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-21T07:59:13Z trinitr0n: yes, these are cool projects. 2015-10-21T07:59:37Z pjb: trinitr0n: there are a few lisp machines but they consume a lot of electricity (sometimes 340 V tri-phasic), are very noisy, and rather slow, compared to current hardware. 2015-10-21T07:59:40Z trinitr0n: but I'm talking about hardware. Obselete, single purpose dinosaurs. 2015-10-21T07:59:50Z trinitr0n: Yes I'm aware 2015-10-21T07:59:57Z trinitr0n: I own a few of these beasts 2015-10-21T07:59:58Z trinitr0n: https://instagram.com/p/7Ua_p1tS8z/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T08:00:04Z pjb: trinitr0n: also, the later lisp machines were actually the Genera VM running on Alpha emulator, much faster. 2015-10-21T08:00:08Z trinitr0n: seeking other owners to talk restoration with. 2015-10-21T08:00:14Z trinitr0n: Yes, I have that as well. 2015-10-21T08:00:23Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:00:37Z pjb: trinitr0n: try news:comp.lang.lisp 2015-10-21T08:00:38Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:00:50Z trinitr0n: I'm in it for the hardware, man ;) 2015-10-21T08:00:57Z trinitr0n: [and the language] 2015-10-21T08:01:22Z jackdaniel: –> cafe (: 2015-10-21T08:01:37Z trinitr0n: for the latter, SBCL works well enough for me 2015-10-21T08:02:00Z resttime quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-21T08:02:17Z trinitr0n: for the former, nothing satisfies me. These machines are too important to not put effort into understanding and preserving. 2015-10-21T08:02:59Z trinitr0n: I have a 3640 arriving in a few weeks 2015-10-21T08:03:34Z pjb: trinitr0n: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lisp+machine+demo 2015-10-21T08:04:06Z trinitr0n: yep, I've seen all this 2015-10-21T08:05:07Z pjb: trinitr0n: Kalman Reti, António Menezes Leitão, Rainer Joswig are idenfied lisp machine owners. 2015-10-21T08:05:15Z pjb: +ti 2015-10-21T08:05:28Z trinitr0n: I've probably done more research on the 36XX platform than anyone short of the creators. I'm reverse engineering the FEP microcode for the system at the moment trying to understand how the bootstrap process works and was wondering if anyone else in the chan is working 36XX systems. I am in touch with Kalman and Rainer 2015-10-21T08:05:44Z trinitr0n: ** is working on 36XX systems. 2015-10-21T08:06:02Z pjb: trinitr0n: again, news:comp.lang.lisp; some people have worked on that to boot images on emulators. 2015-10-21T08:06:19Z pjb: But notably the CADR emulator, perhaps not hte 36xx. 2015-10-21T08:06:25Z trinitr0n: interesting 2015-10-21T08:06:57Z pjb: so of course, http://www.softwarepreservation.org/search?SearchableText=lisp+machine 2015-10-21T08:07:04Z trinitr0n: yeah the 36XX stuff is pretty platform specific /but/ that seems like an intriguing group 2015-10-21T08:07:29Z trinitr0n: yeah this isn't much, I know what CHM has 2015-10-21T08:07:34Z trinitr0n: I have a couple boxes of tapes 2015-10-21T08:07:41Z pjb: Somebody also talked about looking about the IP of Symbolics, it seemed there was some fuzz about it. 2015-10-21T08:07:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T08:08:08Z jackdaniel: guys, if we don't talk about other lisps here then why we do talk about some hardware (which isn't CL)? 2015-10-21T08:08:35Z H4ns: jackdaniel: don't be so prude. genera has a cl compatibility layer. 2015-10-21T08:08:35Z pjb: jackdaniel: There was a Common Lisp implementation in those lisp machines. 2015-10-21T08:08:39Z trinitr0n: There was, yes. Topping story is- interesting to see the least. Anyway I probably have about 20-70 tapes coming in which I'll archive and put online. 2015-10-21T08:08:48Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:08:48Z trinitr0n: jackdaniel: Genera has CL mode 2015-10-21T08:08:57Z trinitr0n: ah, what pjb said 2015-10-21T08:09:00Z jackdaniel: soo, let's talk about x86, it has CL implementations too 2015-10-21T08:09:10Z trinitr0n: jesus, really 2015-10-21T08:09:16Z pjb: Nope. x86 is history. 2015-10-21T08:09:18Z trinitr0n: so no one gives a shit about lisp machines in here? 2015-10-21T08:09:22Z H4ns: jackdaniel: look away. 2015-10-21T08:09:25Z H4ns: trinitr0n: ignore him. 2015-10-21T08:09:27Z pjb: trinitr0n: yes, we do. 2015-10-21T08:09:38Z pjb: We're just drolling about them all the time. 2015-10-21T08:09:49Z jackdaniel: so nice of you H4ns 2015-10-21T08:09:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:10:06Z Shinmera: LispOS is a frequent enough topic in here, but hardware doesn't come up too often. 2015-10-21T08:10:06Z trinitr0n: Well, if folks are interested, I have a bunch of materials coming in which I'll be archiving 2015-10-21T08:10:15Z trinitr0n: including 36XX platform tapes 2015-10-21T08:10:19Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:10:22Z pjb: trinitr0n: be sure to announce on news:comp.lang.lisp 2015-10-21T08:10:33Z trinitr0n: considering the ISA itself was never totally documented, I think they could be interesting to examine 2015-10-21T08:10:38Z trinitr0n: I'll post images when I do. 2015-10-21T08:10:43Z trinitr0n: like, tape images. 2015-10-21T08:11:00Z trinitr0n: and boot microcode. 2015-10-21T08:11:08Z pjb: And you may send copies of the tape images and documentation to http://www.softwarepreservation.org/ 2015-10-21T08:11:14Z H4ns: trinitr0n: i guess not too many people are into running these machines nowadays. they're interesting, but also loud, power hungry and very slow. 2015-10-21T08:11:23Z trinitr0n: that's the fun! 2015-10-21T08:11:29Z trinitr0n: they're also obnoxious to maintain 2015-10-21T08:11:31Z trinitr0n: like 2015-10-21T08:11:36Z trinitr0n: of all the vintage computers 2015-10-21T08:11:40Z trinitr0n: worst possible. 2015-10-21T08:11:42Z pjb: and http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ 2015-10-21T08:11:54Z H4ns: trinitr0n: right. i personally think that they should be preserved for future generations. 2015-10-21T08:11:56Z trinitr0n: yeah pjb al kossow who runs bitsavers is a friend of mine 2015-10-21T08:12:06Z trinitr0n: H4ns: well, therein lies a problem 2015-10-21T08:12:23Z trinitr0n: the process needed to get a 36XX running with a non Symbolics supplied disk is ??? 2015-10-21T08:12:33Z trinitr0n: there was a factory toolset which is lost to the ages 2015-10-21T08:12:42Z trinitr0n: the machines themselves can't format virgin disks 2015-10-21T08:12:52Z trinitr0n: there was never public media to do that 2015-10-21T08:13:17Z trinitr0n: tem is toast 2015-10-21T08:13:21Z trinitr0n: so... When the original smbx supplied disks, with platform specific microcode on them die, well, your 36XX sys 2015-10-21T08:13:26Z trinitr0n: tem is toast 2015-10-21T08:14:05Z trinitr0n: The disks can't be imaged because the controllers are proprietary, and MFM / ESDI / SMD disks aren't like modern disks where you read a block from the controller on the drive 2015-10-21T08:14:20Z Wasdaf left #lisp 2015-10-21T08:14:25Z trinitr0n: so you can't "dd" 2015-10-21T08:14:28Z H4ns: trinitr0n: you're really into a very special interest there, and it is probably something that you can best discuss with those two or three other people who are into that kind of thing directly. 2015-10-21T08:14:53Z wailord quit (Changing host) 2015-10-21T08:14:53Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:15:05Z trinitr0n: Yewah, sure. Point is, it's hard. Preservation is a bitch 2015-10-21T08:15:09Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:15:15Z trinitr0n: Anyone here who knows something 2015-10-21T08:15:16Z trinitr0n: ping me 2015-10-21T08:15:23Z pjb: H4ns: sure. Once trinitr0n finds hardware lispers, they'll go to #lispmachines 2015-10-21T08:15:55Z pjb: trinitr0n: for a start, try to contact the people mentioned above on news:comp.lang.lisp or by email. 2015-10-21T08:15:56Z H4ns: you're talking to two of the right people (reti/joswig) already :D 2015-10-21T08:16:03Z trinitr0n: Yeah I'm like... sorry to intrude in your special channel with my shitty agenda and we'll get out of your hair I guess 2015-10-21T08:16:10Z trinitr0n: but I though this might shake something loose 2015-10-21T08:16:14Z trinitr0n: thanks pjb 2015-10-21T08:16:23Z pjb: Not at all, we're very interested. Keep us informed! 2015-10-21T08:16:27Z p_l: iirc, the 3600 MFM disks were plain MFM disks, the OS just used uncommon block size 2015-10-21T08:16:27Z H4ns: trinitr0n: don't worry. 2015-10-21T08:16:50Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:16:56Z p_l: trinitr0n: also, the MFM-to-SD card that floats on the internet is afaik compatible with 3600, just make sure you wire everything right 2015-10-21T08:17:16Z p_l: heard of at least one partly-fried 3600 ;) 2015-10-21T08:17:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:17:47Z p_l: ~ 2015-10-21T08:18:16Z trinitr0n: p_l: Yes, but I won't get into this further here. The point is you can't simply DD an MFM disk, there is no such thing as 'just' an MFM disk becase the controller level transform to bits is different from system to system. I was indeed the first guy to try that MFMulator on a 36XX :) I built prototype #3 that david G sent me. But, the other disks are still an ish. 2015-10-21T08:18:28Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:18:35Z balle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T08:18:43Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:18:54Z H4ns: p_l: why even bother with a 36xx if you're not using the original disks? 2015-10-21T08:19:04Z trinitr0n: H4ns: they're magical 2015-10-21T08:19:15Z trinitr0n: H4ns: you'll know if you're ever fortunate enough to use one first hand 2015-10-21T08:19:31Z p_l: H4ns: I'm willing to replace the disks etc. if it's what makes one of them bootable :) 2015-10-21T08:19:41Z trinitr0n: H4ns: something that can't really be described. Gorgeous monochrome CRT, for one 2015-10-21T08:19:46Z trinitr0n: ;) 2015-10-21T08:20:02Z trinitr0n: closest thing to a religious experience I've had in a while 2015-10-21T08:20:07Z H4ns: trinitr0n: right. i was a sparcstation ipc user, and i never wanted any friggin color on my desktop. 2015-10-21T08:20:48Z trinitr0n: yeah, so I bet you get it :) 2015-10-21T08:20:50Z H4ns: trinitr0n: so please succeed and make sure that the legacy can be preserved. 2015-10-21T08:20:52Z p_l: trinitr0n: the ISA for 3600 is afaik salvageable, for Ivory bunch of people have dumps of the VLM2 source code which contains essentially a microcode for the VLM variant of it (adds few extensions related to lack of physical MMU unit) 2015-10-21T08:21:10Z trinitr0n: Ivory is way diff from 3600 2015-10-21T08:21:23Z trinitr0n: Anyway 2015-10-21T08:21:24Z pjb: I had the choice between a black-and-white high-definition CRT and a color "crappy" CRT and chose the black-and-white one ;-) 2015-10-21T08:21:40Z trinitr0n: You made the right choice dude. What system? 2015-10-21T08:21:50Z H4ns: i have a microexplorer board set that is partly broken. i had it running for a few hours, and that was a magical experience, too. if i only knew how to fix it :( 2015-10-21T08:22:00Z trinitr0n: H4ns: If you get in touch 2015-10-21T08:22:03Z trinitr0n: I can try a few things 2015-10-21T08:22:05Z pjb: trinitr0n: NeXTstation Turbo. 2015-10-21T08:22:12Z trinitr0n: pjb: mmmmmmmm 2015-10-21T08:22:36Z trinitr0n: btw dudes 2015-10-21T08:22:37Z pjb: They were more numerous, so they're cheaper nowadays. 2015-10-21T08:22:39Z H4ns: trinitr0n: it seems to have a pcb level issue, solder joint or broken trace. 2015-10-21T08:22:43Z trinitr0n: I also have interlisp D 2015-10-21T08:22:49Z pjb: and clisp 2.30 ran on them! 2015-10-21T08:23:03Z p_l: trinitr0n: for tape drive, it's doable to connect *nix tape drive, though you might need to write bits of software to make it "look" correctly to Genera 2015-10-21T08:23:06Z jackdaniel left #lisp 2015-10-21T08:23:07Z trinitr0n: but that is cheating because it's not CL - https://twitter.com/tr1nitr0n/status/640246323682238464 2015-10-21T08:23:24Z H4ns: ugh interlisp 2015-10-21T08:23:27Z trinitr0n: p_l: But there aren't any ways to format a new disk even from tape. Trust me it's complicated 2015-10-21T08:23:33Z trinitr0n: H4ns: yeah it's abominable 2015-10-21T08:23:38Z trinitr0n: the smbx is way better 2015-10-21T08:23:45Z trinitr0n: H4ns: I can probably fix it 2015-10-21T08:23:58Z trinitr0n: I'm pretty good at this game, by now. 2015-10-21T08:23:59Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:24:08Z H4ns: trinitr0n: i'd be happy to send it to you and compensate you if i can. 2015-10-21T08:24:22Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-21T08:24:29Z p_l: trinitr0n: hmmm… was Ivory capable of formatting 3600 drives? I might have a way to connect VLM2 to physical disk (after patching the hell out of Genera) 2015-10-21T08:25:27Z trinitr0n: Nope! 2015-10-21T08:25:31Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:25:58Z trinitr0n: totally different formats from Ivory -> G-Machine (3620,3650) -> L-Macihine (3670,3600,3640) 2015-10-21T08:26:23Z trinitr0n: also the sector size from ivory to others is 1280 vs 1152 (48 bit words vs 36 bit) 2015-10-21T08:27:11Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:27:49Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:28:19Z trinitr0n: /arguably/ the 36XX vs Ivory are as different at a uArch level as say... X86 and PowerPC 2015-10-21T08:29:47Z p_l: well, I guess building a FEP disk image with netboot core is doable 2015-10-21T08:30:02Z p_l: messing with tapes/disks for PDP-10 isn't that different ;) 2015-10-21T08:30:09Z JuanDaugherty: some people contacted me because I mentioned on wiki that when I was systems programmer, I printed out MCP. They're trynna rebuild B5700. 2015-10-21T08:30:34Z JuanDaugherty: or 6700 2015-10-21T08:31:30Z trinitr0n: Anyone here run Allegro Common Lisp? 2015-10-21T08:31:32Z JuanDaugherty: thought I might still have, and did keep for some years 2015-10-21T08:31:51Z lea joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:31:53Z JuanDaugherty: trinitr0n, at one time or now? 2015-10-21T08:32:13Z p_l: trinitr0n: not at the moment, though I had at one time temporary enterprise license and currently got Express edition 2015-10-21T08:32:34Z JuanDaugherty: used to be stale was free 2015-10-21T08:33:29Z JuanDaugherty: for personal use 2015-10-21T08:33:46Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:35:55Z p_l: Express edition is the free for personal use one 2015-10-21T08:39:40Z p_l: trinitr0n: There's documentation on L-machine FEP block structure in VLM2 sources 2015-10-21T08:42:08Z trinitr0n: p_l: Thanks for the tip :) I've seen some hints kicking around. the big issue is the machine won't even write a disk block to a disk with no label, so I have no way to write a reproduced block onto a disk 2015-10-21T08:42:40Z trinitr0n: Kalman is helping with that one :) 2015-10-21T08:43:51Z trinitr0n: Anyone here in touch with John C. Mallery? 2015-10-21T08:43:57Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:44:06Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:44:27Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:44:34Z JuanDaugherty: sounds familiar, is it cl-http? 2015-10-21T08:45:13Z trinitr0n: Yep, he wrote CL-HTTP 2015-10-21T08:45:54Z JuanDaugherty: i have been in the distant past, not in last 5 y 2015-10-21T08:45:58Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T08:46:11Z JuanDaugherty: conceivable he's retired 2015-10-21T08:46:15Z JuanDaugherty: but no idea 2015-10-21T08:47:57Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T08:50:44Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:51:00Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:51:09Z p_l: hmm 2015-10-21T08:51:37Z p_l: 36xx disk blocks are 288 bytes arranged in groups of 4 2015-10-21T08:52:59Z trinitr0n: yes 2015-10-21T08:53:08Z trinitr0n: again, echoes of a 36 bit platform :) 2015-10-21T08:53:45Z p_l: I like how one of the disk driver source files claims to implement 3/4th of PL/I 2015-10-21T08:54:00Z trinitr0n: hahahaha 2015-10-21T08:56:10Z lea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T08:57:43Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-21T08:58:49Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-21T09:00:09Z brucem quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2015-10-21T09:00:51Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T09:00:54Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T09:01:00Z p_l: trinitr0n: FYI, me, antoszka and few other people planned to get a 3600 running, various issues caused it to not have happened... yet 2015-10-21T09:03:01Z balle joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:04:28Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:09:11Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:11:49Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:13:10Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:17:52Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-21T09:17:55Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(: 2015-10-21T10:59:08Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T10:59:26Z Zhivago: I see that jackdaniel is currently offtopic. 2015-10-21T11:00:11Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T11:00:14Z Shinmera: We're all off-topic 2015-10-21T11:00:14Z p_l is currently waiting for "Save Lisp" to finish disk saving 2015-10-21T11:00:33Z NaNDude joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:00:54Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-21T11:03:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:06:27Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T11:06:32Z p_l: it hung but worked, yay 2015-10-21T11:07:20Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:08:26Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:12:05Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T11:12:06Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T11:12:45Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:18:02Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:18:21Z tuxbrave_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:20:50Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T11:21:51Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:21:52Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T11:22:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:22:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T11:22:58Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:23:06Z pt1_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-21T11:23:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:26:20Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:29:48Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:32:43Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:33:07Z tuxbrave_ is now known as tux_brave201 2015-10-21T11:33:47Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-21T11:34:37Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-21T11:34:58Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:36:10Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T11:36:43Z paulo__ is now known as paul0 2015-10-21T11:41:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:45:33Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:46:48Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:47:25Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:47:27Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:49:15Z octophore joined #lisp 2015-10-21T11:57:07Z [BNC]WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:01:00Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:02:43Z [BNC]WizJin quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-21T12:03:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-21T12:04:30Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:08:39Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-21T12:09:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T12:11:20Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:11:58Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-10-21T12:11:58Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:12:07Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:19:15Z przl joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:22:50Z loz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T12:25:01Z Ettore joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:25:41Z loz joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:27:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T12:28:01Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-21T12:30:41Z yenda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T12:31:10Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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of symbolics tapes, in order to preserve them on modern media 2015-10-21T18:18:27Z trinitr0n: p_l: If you get tapes 2015-10-21T18:18:31Z trinitr0n: please let me image 2015-10-21T18:18:41Z trinitr0n: QIC tapes are notoriously painful to image successfully 2015-10-21T18:18:46Z trinitr0n: and I have YEARS of practice 2015-10-21T18:18:56Z trinitr0n: the rubber bands in them degrades, and they need to be baked 2015-10-21T18:19:06Z trinitr0n: otherwise the media will shear off 2015-10-21T18:19:14Z trinitr0n: I'm happy to image them for you 2015-10-21T18:19:26Z trinitr0n: but I dont want to risk them being damaged 2015-10-21T18:20:28Z p_l: trinitr0n: First, we will need to acquire the hardware and the tapes. Then we will look further :) 2015-10-21T18:20:40Z trinitr0n: cool 2015-10-21T18:21:08Z p_l: I'll probably have my patches to VLM2 life support working faster, though 2015-10-21T18:21:36Z mwehner joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:21:51Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:24:23Z tajjada joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:26:15Z resttime left #lisp 2015-10-21T18:26:54Z earl-ducaine_ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:27:32Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-21T18:29:39Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T18:29:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T18:31:55Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:33:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:33:42Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T18:33:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:35:11Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T18:36:41Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-21T18:37:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:39:33Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T18:41:18Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T18:42:20Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T18:42:39Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:43:46Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:44:47Z p_l: on a much more serious note... anyone figures what license is O-Plan under? 2015-10-21T18:46:27Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:46:34Z p_l: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/project/oplan/ 2015-10-21T18:47:08Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:48:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:54:13Z jewel__ joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:54:37Z ggole quit 2015-10-21T18:54:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-21T18:55:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Would that relate to some of the problems you're having with the lisp machine? 2015-10-21T20:40:39Z trinitr0n: Was it David Gessewin? 2015-10-21T20:40:47Z White_Flame: AJ something 2015-10-21T20:40:50Z trinitr0n: maybe 2015-10-21T20:41:00Z trinitr0n: I'd be curious to pick his brain at least 2015-10-21T20:41:05Z Ben- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T20:41:27Z White_Flame: I think this is his site: http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/ 2015-10-21T20:42:02Z p_l: well, at the very least, the MFM-2-SD stuff supposedly is at least somewhat operable with 36xx 2015-10-21T20:42:23Z trinitr0n: right 2015-10-21T20:42:28Z trinitr0n: the SMD and ESDI systems are an issue 2015-10-21T20:42:36Z trinitr0n: also u guys like porno? https://instagram.com/p/1lq8vktS6l/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:42:51Z trinitr0n: https://instagram.com/p/1lyElVtS3_/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:43:01Z p_l: tag it as computer pr0n, at least ;) 2015-10-21T20:43:06Z trinitr0n: ttps://instagram.com/p/1oIVM-NSwu/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:43:07Z p_l: to avoid confusion 2015-10-21T20:43:12Z trinitr0n: https://instagram.com/p/1oIVM-NSwu/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:43:16Z trinitr0n: [ SFW ] :) 2015-10-21T20:43:42Z trinitr0n: I also picked up this piece of shit- 2015-10-21T20:43:56Z trinitr0n: https://instagram.com/p/1XBsT1NS5V/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:44:07Z trinitr0n: which we are gonna use as a public access Genera system 2015-10-21T20:44:35Z trinitr0n: The toxic twins: https://instagram.com/p/1SFMVuNS51/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:44:59Z p_l: trinitr0n: heh, need to speed up my ideas on modding VLM2 to introduce certain extra features :) 2015-10-21T20:45:13Z trinitr0n: p_l: BRING BACK CHAOS 2015-10-21T20:45:14Z trinitr0n: lol 2015-10-21T20:45:14Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-21T20:45:23Z shka: wow 2015-10-21T20:45:28Z p_l: trinitr0n: yes, it will run CHAOSnet *and* DECnet 2015-10-21T20:45:33Z p_l: if I manage it, SNA as well 2015-10-21T20:45:38Z trinitr0n: p_l: much love, homie :) 2015-10-21T20:45:45Z shka: trinitr0n: this is epic 2015-10-21T20:45:49Z shka: also 2015-10-21T20:46:04Z p_l: I've got some DECnet IV systems, pity Symbolics never got OSI 2015-10-21T20:46:12Z p_l: or at least I never found OSI support ;) 2015-10-21T20:46:21Z shka: i still think that symbolics slim keyboard is the most beautifull keyboard ever made 2015-10-21T20:46:33Z trinitr0n: shka: aye. You can also beat someone to death with it 2015-10-21T20:46:42Z White_Flame: that logo icon is so 90s :) https://instagram.com/p/1lyElVtS3_/ 2015-10-21T20:47:05Z White_Flame: (if that was made in the 80s, it just shows how ahead of the time they were!) 2015-10-21T20:47:21Z trinitr0n: That's the c1989 SGD (graphics division) logo 2015-10-21T20:47:43Z p_l: trinitr0n: some of my ideas is to replicate FEP command scripts to control VLM2, and ensure that all "channels" work (those are the same "channels" that are used by UX and MacIvory code) 2015-10-21T20:48:04Z trinitr0n: nice, like the cold load stream, etc? 2015-10-21T20:48:29Z p_l: Among other things, I want to separate cold load stream to avoid the crazy hack that X11 LifeSupport does 2015-10-21T20:48:37Z trinitr0n: shka: https://instagram.com/p/1lsGMyNS8b/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n 2015-10-21T20:48:44Z rebelshrug joined #lisp 2015-10-21T20:48:46Z trinitr0n: p_l: God that'd be nice 2015-10-21T20:48:50Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-21T20:49:35Z mordocai is very lost but loves the pictures. Too many unknown acronyms. 2015-10-21T20:50:20Z trinitr0n: mordocai: my goal is that I will know the acronyms, and these will go in the People's Computer Museum in Seattle so people can play with them without ever knowing the acronyms 2015-10-21T20:50:35Z shka: i also really like genera font 2015-10-21T20:50:47Z trinitr0n: if p_l succeds in his CHAOS hacks, we'll make a public access project server farm that you can access from the LispMs in the space :) 2015-10-21T20:50:57Z trinitr0n: as well as from the web 2015-10-21T20:52:10Z p_l: trinitr0n: X11 life support does weird hacks where it runs ColdStream I/O on the same connection as X11 client from Genera 2015-10-21T20:53:14Z p_l: afk for now 2015-10-21T20:53:17Z rebelshrug quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-21T20:53:52Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-10-21T20:58:26Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T20:59:35Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:00:42Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-21T21:01:02Z rj-code quit (Quit: :q) 2015-10-21T21:01:21Z Takumo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T21:03:26Z emaczen: Does ANSI standard CLOS have to include the meta-class option (defclass ...) ? 2015-10-21T21:05:49Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-21T21:07:54Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:07:58Z jackdaniel: emaczen: it is enlisted in the spec, so yes 2015-10-21T21:08:14Z emaczen: Isn't that MOP specific? 2015-10-21T21:08:37Z emaczen: MOP is not standardized right? 2015-10-21T21:08:44Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T21:09:13Z jackdaniel: MOP isn't part of the CL, right. Why do you ask? 2015-10-21T21:09:17Z jackdaniel is curious 2015-10-21T21:09:27Z Xach: emaczen: metaclass option is standard. 2015-10-21T21:10:35Z emaczen: Isn't metaclass option used for switching the defaults (i.e. different metaobjects for class, method etc...) to get different behaviors? 2015-10-21T21:10:55Z emaczen: Or does it just "do nothing" as part of the standard when the MOP isn't implemented? 2015-10-21T21:11:06Z Xach: every implementation has support for the mop 2015-10-21T21:11:13Z Xach: the form it takes varies, and c2mop normalizes 2015-10-21T21:12:02Z jasom: Xach: I thought PCL didn't have full MOP support 2015-10-21T21:12:31Z emaczen: Xach: Okay, so metclass is standard even though what is used for is non-standard? (I guess it is effectively standardized if all implementations support a MOP). 2015-10-21T21:12:48Z Xach: jasom: I don't now about percentages of completeness. 2015-10-21T21:12:52Z Xach: emaczen: yes. 2015-10-21T21:13:00Z emaczen: Xach: Hah that's funny. 2015-10-21T21:13:14Z emaczen: Xach: Just checking my understanding... 2015-10-21T21:13:32Z jasom: emaczen: there is a very tiny amout of meta object stuff in the main standard 2015-10-21T21:13:35Z jasom: clhs 7.4 2015-10-21T21:13:35Z specbot: Meta-Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_d.htm 2015-10-21T21:14:21Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:14:33Z resttime: closer-to-mop straightens out some inconsistencies between the implementations I believe 2015-10-21T21:14:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:14:46Z jasom: but all currently maintained implementations support the majority of the MOP and c2mop does help bridge a lot of the differences 2015-10-21T21:15:15Z resttime: Oh wow just realized c2mop refers to closer-to-mop ack 2015-10-21T21:16:25Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-21T21:16:29Z jasom: resttime: right, it brings implementations "closer to" the mop standard :) 2015-10-21T21:18:19Z jasom: resttime: here's a discussion around cmucl; note that cmucl used a modified version of PCL for its MOP, and most implementations *started* with PCL as it was a fairly plug-n-play way to get CLOS support. http://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/pcl-mop-hints.html 2015-10-21T21:19:04Z jasom: resttime: but generally speaking, you can just use c2mop and not worry about it, though there may be some corner-case somewhere if you go really esoteric 2015-10-21T21:21:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:22:46Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:24:08Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-21T21:24:51Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:27:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:28:09Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:30:10Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:31:03Z Guest2510 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:32:37Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:33:14Z sellout joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:33:37Z sellout is now known as Guest2677 2015-10-21T21:34:26Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:35:01Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-21T21:35:15Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:37:15Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-21T21:37:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:38:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:38:24Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:40:40Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T21:42:57Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-21T21:43:16Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-21T21:49:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:52:17Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T21:53:08Z mea-culpa joined #lisp 2015-10-21T21:56:53Z Natch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T21:58:00Z ssake_: /exit 2015-10-21T21:58:03Z ssake_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-21T21:59:25Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:00:29Z pchrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T22:00:45Z Subfusc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-21T22:00:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:02:22Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:03:43Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:04:44Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:06:53Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:06:56Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T22:07:10Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:08:24Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T22:08:54Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:10:46Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:15:11Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:15:27Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-21T22:15:50Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:17:33Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T22:18:19Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:18:47Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:20:14Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:20:14Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:25:55Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:31:36Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-21T22:35:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:42:32Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:43:32Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-21T22:44:45Z TDog quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-21T22:46:01Z earl-ducaine: trinitr0n: I'm burning with envy. Do you have anything related to the s-graphics system? Finding even the documentation for that is extreemly difficult. 2015-10-21T22:46:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-21T22:53:21Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-21T22:57:40Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-21T22:59:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-21T22:59:26Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T23:01:01Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-21T23:01:01Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-21T23:01:40Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-21T23:01:46Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-21T23:02:42Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-21T23:02:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-22T00:56:06Z trinitr0n: earl-ducaine: yeah what do you need, ill dump it all 2015-10-22T00:57:32Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-22T00:59:01Z Guest88506 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-22T00:59:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-22T00:59:17Z theethicalegoist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-22T00:59:23Z Xach: That stuff is not public domain. 2015-10-22T01:00:13Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:01:01Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:01:20Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:02:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-22T01:02:31Z Lord_Nightmare: trinitr0n and I had a discussion on #classiccmp about who owns the assets of symbolics. Its probably John C. Mallery, but we're not 100% sure. We do know that Andrew Topping for a long time PRETENDED to own the assets to enrich himself as some sort of scam, but he didn't actually own anything to the best of what we've found. 2015-10-22T01:03:07Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:03:43Z Lord_Nightmare: by owns the assets we mean 'owns the IP/distribution rights to'; most of the internal documentation is long gone, possibly thanks to topping. 2015-10-22T01:04:23Z Lord_Nightmare: I'd love to get input from people who know more than I could even attempt to know who hang out in here 2015-10-22T01:04:29Z Lord_Nightmare: about the whole mess 2015-10-22T01:05:12Z Lord_Nightmare: Mallery at one point implied that he'd release some/all of the stuff under some sort of open source license, though this hasn't happened yet for reasons unknown. 2015-10-22T01:05:39Z Xach: Is that a public implication? 2015-10-22T01:05:46Z Lord_Nightmare: Xach: do you know any more about 'who owns the symbolics ip'? I'd love to hear it 2015-10-22T01:06:01Z Lord_Nightmare: Xach: was a comment to a youtube video i think or some really weird channel like that 2015-10-22T01:06:11Z Lord_Nightmare: trinitr0n knows 2015-10-22T01:06:27Z Xach: I've heard from various people that it is John C. Mallery, and I've also heard that he thinks it is a matter of national security that it not become public. 2015-10-22T01:06:27Z Lord_Nightmare: (I'm more or less echoing what he said in #classicmp) 2015-10-22T01:06:42Z Xach: All secondhand info, though, so I don't know how accurate. 2015-10-22T01:07:09Z JuanDaugherty: i only knew of cl-http but makes sense because they used it at the old white house site 2015-10-22T01:07:12Z Lord_Nightmare: I thought it was topping who went on and on until the day he died that the info shouldn't be released "because it is worth money" 2015-10-22T01:07:25Z Zhivago: Just argue squatters' rights. :) 2015-10-22T01:07:28Z Lord_Nightmare: even though, as it turns out, he didn't even own it 2015-10-22T01:07:42Z Xach: I believe Xof sat next to him on a flight to ILC once, and explained what http was, and why cl-http was the best, at length. This was in the mid-2000s. 2015-10-22T01:08:11Z JuanDaugherty: well it makes a diff if it's sources from which something is then derived 2015-10-22T01:08:11Z Xach: long after http ceased to be an obscure and novel technology 2015-10-22T01:08:14Z Lord_Nightmare: well, i'm pretty sure new whitehouse.gov does NOT use cl-http so it probably isn't a matter of national security anymore 2015-10-22T01:08:26Z JuanDaugherty: vs just flat out use of an unmodified binary say 2015-10-22T01:08:30Z Xach: I'm not talking about cl-http re: security. 2015-10-22T01:08:48Z JuanDaugherty: i thought it was about symbolics os 2015-10-22T01:08:58Z Xach: But, what he perceives to be an issue of national security and what is in reality a matter of national security may not be in alignment. 2015-10-22T01:09:15Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:09:20Z Xach: But it's his opinion that matters. 2015-10-22T01:09:21Z Lord_Nightmare: Eh, it's worth asking him again. 2015-10-22T01:09:30Z JuanDaugherty: cl-http is a pure IP issue I thought 2015-10-22T01:10:15Z Xach: cl-http sources are public under an unusual, unenforceable-looking license 2015-10-22T01:10:50Z Lord_Nightmare: I've been involved in licensing hell before. it isn't fun. 2015-10-22T01:11:12Z JuanDaugherty: well they were when I used but stopped like 10 y a 2015-10-22T01:11:27Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. were public 2015-10-22T01:11:39Z JuanDaugherty: then they sorta became not public 2015-10-22T01:11:47Z JuanDaugherty: or the changes anyway 2015-10-22T01:13:06Z Lord_Nightmare: ... this is really odd. 2015-10-22T01:13:31Z JuanDaugherty: but none of the changes I ever saw were significant 2015-10-22T01:13:41Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:15:09Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:15:13Z Lord_Nightmare: i wonder if the 'national security' thing is something silly like (in theory) genera containing an implementation of the SKIPJACK encryption used in the clipper chips 2015-10-22T01:15:23Z Lord_Nightmare: skipjack sucked ass, and was badly flawed 2015-10-22T01:15:26Z Lord_Nightmare: even the NSA admitted it 2015-10-22T01:20:28Z Lord_Nightmare: if there's something encryption related (or DRM related) on there that he's concerned about, it can be nulled out (though honestly it is probably obsolete, and he, owning the IP, can bypass DRM till the cows come home) 2015-10-22T01:21:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:27:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:28:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-22T01:28:03Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-22T01:28:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:28:28Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:32:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:33:34Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:33:37Z earl-ducaine: Xach: (heavy dose of IANAL) But it appears that that all Symbolics code was covered by their work with the US Government for whom they had to provide sourcecode. This is contained in their license for 8.3: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157213#1 2015-10-22T01:35:27Z earl-ducaine: So, 2/27/2018 is the very last possible date under which the US was under any obligations with respect to releasing the source code. 2015-10-22T01:35:50Z earl-ducaine: Presumably, much of it has already expired. 2015-10-22T01:36:46Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-22T01:39:54Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:40:21Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-22T01:49:50Z sellout joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:49:51Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-22T01:51:14Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:53:39Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:55:18Z pegu`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-22T01:56:20Z IlMago quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-22T01:59:00Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-22T01:59:57Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-22T02:01:24Z zaquest 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It has to be on the same thread. 2015-10-23T09:44:26Z loke: I mean all calls have to be on the same thread. But that thread does not have to be the main thread. 2015-10-23T09:44:42Z Shinmera: I'm not sure about Windows, but on OS X it has to be the main thread. 2015-10-23T09:45:08Z Shinmera: You could try using trivial-main-thread on a standard SLIME, though I've had a failure report about that on windows recently that I haven't had the time to investigate yet, so I can't guarantee success. 2015-10-23T09:45:10Z loke: Shinmera: Seriously? 2015-10-23T09:45:16Z Shinmera: loke: Yes. It's a pain in the arse. 2015-10-23T09:45:23Z loke: TF 2015-10-23T09:45:30Z Shinmera: Especially on CCL, which uses the main thread for "cleanup" to itself. 2015-10-23T09:45:38Z Shinmera: So even if you don't run slime you don't get that thread. 2015-10-23T09:45:45Z Shinmera: (TMT gets around that) 2015-10-23T09:52:42Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T09:52:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T09:52:57Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T09:55:00Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: I just remembered something about 10.11 . 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Usually that results in "original thread". 2015-10-23T12:53:14Z |3b|: GL can run from any thread on windows, if you do the context stuff correctly. GL from multiple threads gets messier but should in theory be possible if not very useful 2015-10-23T12:53:48Z Shinmera: p_l: Qt seems to error out if you try to start it from a different thread. 2015-10-23T12:54:08Z p_l: Shinmera: I suspect something related to Qt, and/or possibly portability to OSX 2015-10-23T12:54:15Z Shinmera: Probably. 2015-10-23T12:54:29Z Shinmera: Either way, CCL screws up even if I try to use TMT. Idk wtf's going on. 2015-10-23T12:54:43Z p_l: IIRC, OSX *requires* GUI calls to be done only on original thread 2015-10-23T12:54:47Z Shinmera: Yes. 2015-10-23T12:55:01Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T12:55:55Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T12:55:59Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-23T12:59:38Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T13:00:16Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T13:00:51Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:01:10Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:02:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T13:07:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:07:39Z clog_ quit (Quit: ^C) 2015-10-23T13:07:54Z clog joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:08:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:10:06Z myrkraverk_: Is there any example of how to use the search-path keyword parameter in cffi's define-foreign-library. 2015-10-23T13:10:16Z myrkraverk_: I haven't found one, and my experiments have failed. 2015-10-23T13:10:21Z myrkraverk_ is now known as myrkraverk 2015-10-23T13:11:02Z zwdr_ is now known as zwdr 2015-10-23T13:12:38Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T13:20:29Z jcowan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:20:41Z jcowan: I have a hypothetical question about displaced arrays. 2015-10-23T13:20:59Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:21:14Z jcowan: Suppose I want to add an extension to make-array to say that the array returned is read-only. 2015-10-23T13:21:38Z jcowan: And suppose that array B is displaced to read-only array A. Is it the Right Thing to force array B to be read-only also? 2015-10-23T13:21:40Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:22:20Z harish quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T13:23:50Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T13:25:23Z dlowe: The alternative is copy-on-write 2015-10-23T13:26:02Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T13:27:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T13:27:45Z dlowe: another alternative is simply disallowing writable arrays to be displaced to read-only arrays 2015-10-23T13:27:56Z dlowe: have it signal 2015-10-23T13:28:23Z jcowan: Sure. But what's the Right Default Thing? 2015-10-23T13:28:40Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:28:51Z jcowan: Copy-on-write is not practical in this case. 2015-10-23T13:29:21Z dlowe: I would say disallowing writable arrays 2015-10-23T13:30:15Z dlowe: I wouldn't want the read-only-ness to propagate by accident 2015-10-23T13:30:33Z commonlisp174 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-23T13:30:36Z dlowe: You're getting into const-correctness hilarity there 2015-10-23T13:30:40Z jcowan: Fair point. Okay, signal it is. 2015-10-23T13:31:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:33:09Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:33:09Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-23T13:33:09Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:33:53Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-23T13:34:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:35:26Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:40:34Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:42:03Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-23T13:46:14Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:50:01Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:55:46Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:57:16Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-10-23T13:58:59Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:00:38Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:05:12Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:05:16Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:06:48Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:07:00Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:08:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:10:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:12:08Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-23T14:12:39Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:12:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:14:38Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:16:29Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:16:58Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:20:03Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:21:43Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2015-10-23T14:21:47Z ZabaQ: So it looks like my problem with ccl and the nil communication style in windows is that swank doesn't support it and I need to write wait-for-input for ccl myself. 2015-10-23T14:22:09Z ZabaQ: That's weird. I could have sworn it worked. 2015-10-23T14:23:08Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T14:23:21Z jackdaniel: ZabaQ: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157338 2015-10-23T14:23:43Z jackdaniel: most portable solution (if ccl has serve-event it might be better) 2015-10-23T14:23:46Z ZabaQ: ooh, thanks! 2015-10-23T14:23:57Z jackdaniel: sure thing, enjoy :-) 2015-10-23T14:24:10Z jackdaniel: (it's part of the ecl backend as fallback if no serve-event exist) 2015-10-23T14:25:07Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:25:26Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:25:32Z Shinmera: ZabaQ: You could still give TMT a try. Then you don't have to use this workaround. 2015-10-23T14:26:12Z clop: i'm trying to remember a word, that is something like "anamorphic" or something, that someone used to describe the LOOP macro as "bad", roughly on the grounds that it changed the syntax of what was below it... anyone know this word? 2015-10-23T14:26:18Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:26:29Z Xach: anaphoric is one complaint 2015-10-23T14:26:47Z Xach: anaphoric macros introduce implicit local variables. LOOP introduces "it" 2015-10-23T14:26:58Z Shinmera completely forgot about IT 2015-10-23T14:27:16Z Xach: there are others, like AWHEN, AIF, etc. I don't like 'em. I like to see what's being bound. 2015-10-23T14:27:32Z Xach: of standard macros, only LOOP does it. 2015-10-23T14:27:42Z eudoxia: LOOP is anaphoric? 2015-10-23T14:27:42Z ZabaQ: Shimera: TMT == The Main Thread? 2015-10-23T14:27:50Z zwdr: Does CLOS use anaphoric macros? 2015-10-23T14:27:51Z eudoxia: whaaaat 2015-10-23T14:27:53Z Shinmera: ZabaQ: trivial-main-thread. The library I told you about earlier. 2015-10-23T14:27:55Z Xach: eudoxia: LOOP introduces an implicit IT in some contexts. 2015-10-23T14:27:57Z ZabaQ: Ah 2015-10-23T14:28:07Z Shinmera: ZabaQ: It lets you run things in the main thread from any other thread out. 2015-10-23T14:28:54Z jackdaniel: zwdr: what for? methods may work on multiple objects hence 'it makes no sense in such context 2015-10-23T14:29:32Z Shinmera: Well, CLOS adds NEXT-METHOD-P and CALL-NEXT-METHOD as local functions. 2015-10-23T14:29:38Z zwdr: jackdaniel: I don't know much about CLOS, but it seemed to be a no-brainer, for stuff like "self" or "this" 2015-10-23T14:29:57Z Xach: there is no "self" or "this" in CLOS 2015-10-23T14:30:11Z jackdaniel: zwdr: well, methods aren't part of the classes, so such references doesn't make much sense 2015-10-23T14:30:46Z Brucio-12 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:30:46Z Brucio-12 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-23T14:31:22Z gabriel_laddel: Does anyone happen to have a pointer to some lisp code that compiles common lisp to emacs lisp? 2015-10-23T14:31:22Z jackdaniel: zwdr: you have with-slots to simplify a little access to the slots 2015-10-23T14:31:40Z gabriel_laddel: I know I've seen it before, and used to have a copy... 2015-10-23T14:32:02Z gabriel_laddel: (in case anyone is curious, I'd like to run it in reverse on a few things...) 2015-10-23T14:32:30Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:32:44Z zwdr: OK, thanks jackdaniel. Looks like I gotta read up on CLOS when I got the time :s 2015-10-23T14:33:26Z Shinmera: zwdr: Here's an article that tries to briefly explain CLOS: http://reader.tymoon.eu/article/268 2015-10-23T14:33:31Z zwdr: oooh, thanks 2015-10-23T14:34:28Z Shinmera: Also, it is possible to add class-bound methods using the MOP, though the usefulness thereof is very debatable outside of being a neat exercise. This article shows a possible implementation: http://reader.tymoon.eu/article/286 2015-10-23T14:34:32Z zwdr: lots of stuff to learn, at least I got to reading Let over Lambda once 2015-10-23T14:34:38Z Xach: http://xach.com/lisp/jrm-clos-guide.html is another brief intro 2015-10-23T14:37:24Z dim: about CLOS, I liked the 2 chapters about it in PCL very much 2015-10-23T14:37:41Z gabriel_laddel: load-emacs-lisp-into-common-lisp.lisp, by Sam Steingold 2015-10-23T14:37:50Z dim: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html and http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 2015-10-23T14:37:51Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:37:53Z gabriel_laddel: turns out that I was wrong, it goes in the direction that I want. 2015-10-23T14:38:33Z jackdaniel: gabriel_laddel: elisp has CL compat layer I think 2015-10-23T14:38:46Z Shinmera: It's not much of a layer. 2015-10-23T14:38:50Z gabriel_laddel: ^ 2015-10-23T14:39:11Z gabriel_laddel: Yeah, I just want to point and shoot at a bunch of Elisp and get the same logic out in CL 2015-10-23T14:39:30Z gabriel_laddel: for example, the code used to read in times. 2015-10-23T14:39:34Z gabriel_laddel: or rgrep 2015-10-23T14:41:01Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:41:21Z emaczen: How can I dispatch off a pair vs a list? Both are conses and both are lists... 2015-10-23T14:41:40Z dlowe: emaczen: you cannot. 2015-10-23T14:41:57Z emaczen: ahh 2015-10-23T14:42:07Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-23T14:42:14Z dlowe: a list isn't a type, it's a structure 2015-10-23T14:44:44Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:44:50Z Zhivago: A list is a type, what it isn't is a class. 2015-10-23T14:45:00Z Zhivago: And generic functions dispatch on class, not type. 2015-10-23T14:45:05Z Shinmera: LIST is a type. A list is not a type. 2015-10-23T14:45:56Z jackdaniel: to be precize (who knows how is your printer case set), |LIST| is a type 2015-10-23T14:45:59Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2015-10-23T14:46:04Z _death: LIST is also a class... 2015-10-23T14:47:06Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Not so fast. CL:|LIST|. 2015-10-23T14:48:02Z dlowe: only in the weird way that CL types can be arbitrary predicates 2015-10-23T14:48:06Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:48:26Z dlowe: but yes, "dispatching on class" is a better way to think about it 2015-10-23T14:49:10Z bogwonch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:51:13Z jcowan: Or you can use something that explicitly dispatches on predicates, like Fare's LI-whatever-it-is 2015-10-23T14:51:14Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-23T14:51:24Z Shinmera: And another Qt bug circumvented with Qtools. Huzzah. 2015-10-23T14:51:33Z clop: thanks, anaphoric was exactly the word! 2015-10-23T14:51:40Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:52:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T14:53:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T14:55:36Z shka: Shinmera: well, that's how you improve software 2015-10-23T14:55:41Z shka: folks 2015-10-23T14:56:32Z shka: is it possible to have clojure style every-collection-there-is destructuring in common lisp? 2015-10-23T14:56:32Z Shinmera: This one was really weird. But at least it works on Slime+Windows properly now. https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/toolkit.lisp#L279 2015-10-23T14:56:44Z shka: Shinmera: good job :-) 2015-10-23T15:00:15Z Xach: shka: I don't know anything about clojure destructuring, but i know optima seems make it easy/possible to destructure arbitrary things. 2015-10-23T15:01:25Z shka: what is optima? 2015-10-23T15:01:34Z jackdaniel: shka: a library 2015-10-23T15:01:40Z jackdaniel: for cl 2015-10-23T15:01:48Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T15:01:49Z shka: ok 2015-10-23T15:02:04Z shka reading 2015-10-23T15:02:31Z shka: Xach: first impression: prolog unification 2015-10-23T15:05:23Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:07:04Z shka: Xach: good idea? 2015-10-23T15:07:06Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:07:37Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:08:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:09:02Z Devon: Any opinions on alternative databases to Cassandro or Mongo? 2015-10-23T15:09:31Z eudoxia: consider rethinkdb 2015-10-23T15:10:07Z newdan: Devon: I'm a fan of redis but only use it for non-critical data, mostly use a RDBMS 2015-10-23T15:10:10Z failproofshark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:10:27Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:10:27Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:10:57Z dim: Devon: well yes, PostgreSQL. 2015-10-23T15:11:31Z dim: of course it all depends on the use case, Cassandra has use cases that would not be fit for PostgreSQL; as for Mongo I'm yet to see a use case that justify choosing that 2015-10-23T15:11:34Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:12:02Z jcowan: The use case for Mongo is "Higher ups say so" 2015-10-23T15:12:45Z dim: “are we allowed to lose data?” 2015-10-23T15:13:35Z jcowan: "Sure, we have billions of clicks, what's a few hundred more or less?" 2015-10-23T15:13:54Z shka: Xach: optima is not exactly what i ment, but it seems to be quite awesome 2015-10-23T15:14:15Z dmiles_akf: shka: gola is to be able to unify everything? 2015-10-23T15:14:25Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:14:27Z shka: dmiles_akf: not exactly 2015-10-23T15:14:52Z shka: clojure works the following way 2015-10-23T15:15:10Z shka: both lambda list and let list is destructuring list 2015-10-23T15:15:25Z shka: and you can destructure there 2015-10-23T15:15:31Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-10-23T15:15:38Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:15:57Z shka: so you can select and bind value from hash-table inside your let with destructuring 2015-10-23T15:16:17Z shka: ah, yes, you can destructure hash-table 2015-10-23T15:19:29Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:20:14Z ajf-: what's a good way of transposing a #2A array ? 2015-10-23T15:23:21Z shka: ajf-: loop works 2015-10-23T15:23:55Z shka: ajf-: but if i would be you, i would simply pick a library to deal with this 2015-10-23T15:23:55Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:24:20Z ajf-: yes currently trying one 2015-10-23T15:25:25Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:25:51Z ajf-: the whole namespacing thing though 2015-10-23T15:25:54Z ajf-: how do you deal with it 2015-10-23T15:26:17Z shka: ajf-: easy 2015-10-23T15:26:58Z shka: just use other package in your package 2015-10-23T15:27:04Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:27:16Z shka: (defpackage :btreetests 2015-10-23T15:27:17Z shka: (:use :common-lisp :fiveam :btree) 2015-10-23T15:27:19Z shka: (:export :run!)) 2015-10-23T15:27:20Z shka: like this 2015-10-23T15:27:40Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:28:03Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:28:47Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2015-10-23T15:29:10Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:29:20Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:31:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:32:03Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:32:28Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:36:03Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:41:06Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T15:41:14Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T15:45:10Z man2131 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:46:10Z man213 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:48:17Z emaczen: What's wrong with using eval again? 2015-10-23T15:48:25Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T15:48:41Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:49:00Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:49:01Z jasom: pillton: it is indeed esrap; I was using smug before 2015-10-23T15:49:05Z emaczen: I'm storing functions in a hash-table and I couldn't figure out anyway to get it to work without doing: (eval `(lambda (,var-name) ,@body)) 2015-10-23T15:51:44Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T15:51:53Z shka: emaczen: please, don't use eval 2015-10-23T15:52:03Z shka: it interprets your code 2015-10-23T15:52:12Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T15:52:14Z emaczen: What can I do instead? 2015-10-23T15:52:23Z shka: do you know about funcall? 2015-10-23T15:52:26Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:52:27Z jcowan: emaczen: Are you really storing functions or their namess? 2015-10-23T15:52:47Z dytrivedi quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T15:53:07Z shka: emaczen: try this 2015-10-23T15:53:27Z shka: (funcall #'+ 2 2) 2015-10-23T15:53:53Z emaczen: jcowan: I have a body argument that I need to make the body of a lambda form 2015-10-23T15:54:13Z jasom: emaczen: where does the body come from? 2015-10-23T15:54:19Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T15:54:21Z emaczen: a defun 2015-10-23T15:54:30Z jasom: emaczen: if you can generate it at macroexpand time, then that sounds like a job for a macro 2015-10-23T15:56:27Z shka: emaczen: why not store your function instead? 2015-10-23T15:56:31Z shka: you do your defun 2015-10-23T15:56:44Z shka: lets say defun foo 2015-10-23T15:56:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-23T15:56:59Z shka: than you can obtain function object with #'foo 2015-10-23T15:57:06Z shka: and for instance do 2015-10-23T15:57:15Z shka: (cons #'foo some-list) 2015-10-23T15:57:25Z shka: now you can funcall that object 2015-10-23T15:57:27Z jasom: emaczen: why don't you paste a full example of what you're doing now 2015-10-23T15:59:18Z emaczen: I'll paste in a second 2015-10-23T15:59:47Z shka: how do i bind multiple values returned from function in loop? 2015-10-23T16:00:01Z emaczen: As an overview, I'm trying to create a "method-table" which takes a class-name and method-name as the key and the function/body for the value 2015-10-23T16:00:05Z jdz: also, storing the function name instead of a function object is more newbie-proof 2015-10-23T16:00:06Z jasom: shka: use destructuring and multiple-value-list 2015-10-23T16:00:36Z jasom: shka: (loop for (whole frac) = (multiple-value-list (floor x y)) ...) 2015-10-23T16:00:54Z shka: jasom: thanks 2015-10-23T16:01:09Z jasom: shka: yeah, it's kind of a missing-feature in loop, sadly 2015-10-23T16:02:38Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:04:07Z shka: i was using iterate 2015-10-23T16:05:18Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:06:17Z jasom: emaczen: the question is, why are you storing the function body rather than the function itself for the value? The only reason to store the body would be if you needed serialization, and even then you should probably store the function too, and just use the body for serialization 2015-10-23T16:06:47Z jasom: also note that the body is only sufficient for serialization if you restrict all of the functions to having to be defined in the null environment 2015-10-23T16:07:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:10:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:10:57Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T16:11:05Z zwdr: Isn't this what symbols are for? 2015-10-23T16:12:01Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:12:42Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:12:43Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:13:08Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:14:00Z resttime: I just don't get it, spent hours trying to find out why something in commonqt was working the way I wanted until I fell asleep and now it works as expected. 2015-10-23T16:14:36Z emaczen: jasom: what is the "null environment" 2015-10-23T16:15:38Z jasom: emaczen: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#null_lexical_environment 2015-10-23T16:15:46Z resttime: s/working/not working 2015-10-23T16:15:55Z jasom: clhs 3.1.1 2015-10-23T16:15:55Z specbot: Introduction to Environments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm 2015-10-23T16:17:30Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:18:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:19:45Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:19:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:22:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:24:21Z emaczen: If I have (lambda (var) ....) since lambda is a macro, how can I get the symbol-value of var to be the parameter name of the lambda? 2015-10-23T16:26:07Z jasom: emaczen: tell us what you're trying to do 2015-10-23T16:26:10Z emaczen: If I do `(lambda (,var) ....) it returns a list... and I want the lambda to be returned. 2015-10-23T16:26:28Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:27:14Z jasom: emaczen: of course it returns a list 2015-10-23T16:27:21Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:27:33Z jasom: `(...) will return a list regardless of the contents of ... 2015-10-23T16:27:34Z shka: (lambda (var) ...) will return function 2015-10-23T16:27:46Z shka: but not `(lambda (,var) ...) 2015-10-23T16:28:42Z jasom: emaczen: however if you have a macro that returns a list, that list will be used in your code in place of the macro (this is the whole point of macros) in which case a function will be generated 2015-10-23T16:29:11Z durm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T16:29:46Z emaczen: jasom: yes, I want the function so that I can do (funcall (gethash ... ...) args) 2015-10-23T16:30:08Z jasom: (defmacro simple-example ((var-name var-value) &body b) `(funcall (lambda (,var-name) ,@b) ,var-value)) (simple-example (x) (+ x 2)) => # 2015-10-23T16:30:23Z emaczen: However, the body argument has some variable names, and these names need to be present in the parameter-list for this lambda dorm 2015-10-23T16:30:38Z jasom: where does the body argument come from? 2015-10-23T16:30:40Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-10-23T16:31:19Z emaczen: It is a &body argument to a macro -- is that what you want to know? 2015-10-23T16:31:31Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:31:31Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157340 2015-10-23T16:31:44Z shka: any idea why this code returns just one value instead of two? 2015-10-23T16:31:59Z jasom: emaczen: show us your code where you think you need eval... 2015-10-23T16:32:30Z jasom: clhs with-output-to-string 2015-10-23T16:32:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 2015-10-23T16:33:09Z jasom: shka: with-output-to-string only returns one value 2015-10-23T16:33:14Z shka: jasom: sorry for being itiod :/ 2015-10-23T16:33:18Z shka: *idiot 2015-10-23T16:33:45Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:33:50Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:35:26Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:36:29Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:36:37Z jcowan_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:38:39Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:39:44Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:40:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:40:53Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:42:33Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:43:05Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-23T16:44:00Z jasom: shka: I've asked much dumber questions in here, so no worries :) 2015-10-23T16:45:11Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:45:29Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:45:43Z shka: jasom: ok, so behold since i will ask something even more stupid 2015-10-23T16:45:55Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157340#1 2015-10-23T16:46:09Z shka: this just prints my string and returns nothing 2015-10-23T16:46:18Z shka: (actually returns nil) 2015-10-23T16:46:28Z shka: i have no idea what i do wrong 2015-10-23T16:46:51Z shka: i created my output string, use format on it 2015-10-23T16:49:43Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:49:45Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-23T16:49:53Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DEK/2 2015-10-23T16:51:09Z Natch_h left #lisp 2015-10-23T16:51:22Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:51:25Z Natch quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-23T16:51:31Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:52:00Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:53:11Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:53:13Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:53:24Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:53:49Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T16:53:53Z shka: jasom: that was my first attempt 2015-10-23T16:54:19Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T16:54:29Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:54:41Z shka: gosh 2015-10-23T16:54:44Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DEK/3 2015-10-23T16:54:58Z jasom: that works for me, I just modified it to not use read-stream-char since I don't have that 2015-10-23T16:55:20Z shka: jasom: sorry, i'm being even more stupid 2015-10-23T16:56:05Z shka: (with-input-from-string (input-stream "test 1 2 3 4 5") (format t "~S" (read-stream-word #\Space input-stream))) 2015-10-23T16:56:18Z shka: i was expecting THAT to return two values :/ 2015-10-23T16:56:32Z jasom: ah 2015-10-23T16:57:36Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:58:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-23T16:58:41Z man2131 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-23T17:00:34Z shka: doing common lisp after doing daytime job is a little bit straining 2015-10-23T17:00:59Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-23T17:01:06Z White__Flame: yeah, it certainly makes the day job stuff much more straining in comparison 2015-10-23T17:01:14Z zwdr: heh 2015-10-23T17:01:16Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2015-10-23T17:01:26Z zwdr: I agree, Lisp is much more pleasant to write than what I do at work 2015-10-23T17:01:49Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:02:00Z dytrivedi quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T17:02:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:03:20Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:03:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:04:07Z psy_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-23T17:04:45Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:06:37Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:08:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:08:32Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:09:20Z limmen joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:09:30Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:11:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:12:55Z elderK joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:18:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:18:43Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:20:56Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 2015-10-23T17:21:17Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:21:47Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:21:56Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:23:01Z Wojciech_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:23:13Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:25:54Z Wojciech_K quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:26:14Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:26:33Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:29:15Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T17:30:12Z ziocroc is now known as ziocroc2 2015-10-23T17:30:19Z ziocroc2 is now known as ziocroc 2015-10-23T17:32:38Z wizzo quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-23T17:33:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:33:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:33:26Z wizzo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:35:27Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:36:01Z Wojciech__ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:37:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:37:37Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:38:08Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:39:19Z Wojciech_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:39:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:39:30Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T17:40:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T17:40:59Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:41:05Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:42:17Z Devon: (slime-connect "127.0.0.1" 4005) => "connection refused" ; any clues how to get an additional REPL in the same lisp? 2015-10-23T17:42:18Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T17:44:14Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T17:44:24Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:46:26Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:46:51Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:48:16Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2015-10-23T17:48:54Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:49:27Z jackdaniel: Devon: you have to start the swank server with :dont-close t 2015-10-23T17:49:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if it's the slime default when run from emacs 2015-10-23T17:50:26Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:50:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: do I have to build pgloader specially to get MS Sql Server support? 2015-10-23T17:50:34Z jcowan left #lisp 2015-10-23T17:51:08Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:52:34Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:54:46Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T17:57:18Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-23T17:58:31Z elderK quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-23T17:59:58Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:00:14Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:01:11Z _sjs` joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:01:44Z dim: fiddlerwoaroof: there's no support for build-time options in pgloader (yet), so any build should do 2015-10-23T18:01:59Z dim: now, you need to be able to load the freetds.so from CFFI 2015-10-23T18:02:18Z dim: when using the debian package it works just fine, in other cases, well, sometimes you have to figure it out :/ 2015-10-23T18:02:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: So, I've installed that on debian, it's not recognizing my connection string 2015-10-23T18:02:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe I just forgot to include a hostname :) 2015-10-23T18:02:56Z dim: any specific error message you could paste? 2015-10-23T18:03:15Z dim: the esrap error reporting is quite... awful, really, when given to end users 2015-10-23T18:03:46Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:04:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:04:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is this the right format: "pgloader mssql://user:password@host/db" 2015-10-23T18:05:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just saying "Can not find file" 2015-10-23T18:05:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I'm using the current Git head) 2015-10-23T18:08:48Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:08:49Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:09:51Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-23T18:10:58Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T18:12:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:12:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:12:58Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:14:10Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:15:00Z pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 2015-10-23T18:15:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think I figured that problem out, now I'm getting "connection failed for an unknown reason" 2015-10-23T18:15:48Z dim: yeah well you need a second parameter with the target db connection (postgresql://...) 2015-10-23T18:16:17Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T18:16:26Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:17:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T18:17:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I discovered that :) 2015-10-23T18:20:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, I'm getting: 'The value "generate_uuid_v4()" is not of type (OR NULL (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 16)).' 2015-10-23T18:21:40Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:22:21Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:24:21Z shka: hey, anybody using optima here? 2015-10-23T18:24:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:24:32Z shka: i'm trying to figure out how exactly it work 2015-10-23T18:24:37Z shka: (optima:match '(x (20 y)) (8 '(20 5))) yields nil 2015-10-23T18:26:23Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:26:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:30:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: is this problem related to https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/204 ? 2015-10-23T18:30:22Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:31:01Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-23T18:32:16Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T18:35:14Z scymtym: shka: the syntax of MATCH is a bit like CASE, i.e. you probably confused the pattern and the datum. try (optima:match '(8 (20 5)) ((list x (list 20 y)) (list x y))) 2015-10-23T18:35:57Z shka: scymtym: let me try 2015-10-23T18:36:29Z shka: scymtym: i understand now! 2015-10-23T18:36:33Z shka: scymtym: thank you 2015-10-23T18:37:55Z shka: scymtym: this is really, really cool lib 2015-10-23T18:38:58Z scymtym: shka: no problem. to write the pattern with quasiquote syntax, i.e. `(,x (20 ,y)), which is closer to your initial attempt, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22650562/translating-x-style-pattern-variables-to-optima 2015-10-23T18:40:48Z dim: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have a testing env for ms sql so some bugs have been there for a long time. In your case, a stack trace would help (--debug, paste site) 2015-10-23T18:41:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:41:42Z shka: scymtym: great 2015-10-23T18:41:50Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:42:21Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:43:58Z WaterOnMars joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:46:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim:https://gist.github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/da4f9be8436d29084b96 2015-10-23T18:46:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/da4f9be8436d29084b96 2015-10-23T18:46:15Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-23T18:47:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:47:48Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:47:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T18:50:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:50:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:51:50Z 7GHABHI8O joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:51:50Z 77CAA22TO joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:52:33Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2015-10-23T18:55:11Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T18:55:48Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-23T18:57:44Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:00:16Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-23T19:01:20Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:04:00Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:04:52Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:07:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:08:13Z gargaml joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:09:31Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:11:10Z hazz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:13:31Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:14:36Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:15:43Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:18:40Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T19:19:40Z Guest17001 is now known as xristos 2015-10-23T19:19:46Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2015-10-23T19:19:46Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:19:47Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:20:28Z duggiefresh quit 2015-10-23T19:20:29Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:20:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are lisp strings null-terminated? 2015-10-23T19:20:58Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T19:21:30Z H4ns: fiddlerwoaroof: no. 2015-10-23T19:24:07Z Oddi2 quit 2015-10-23T19:24:35Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:24:47Z preacherAKAnd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T19:24:47Z hazz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:26:20Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:27:59Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T19:28:32Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:29:08Z hugdru joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:30:06Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:31:16Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:32:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:38:20Z hazz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:39:40Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:41:34Z hugdru: Hi, I recently switched from vim to spacemacs. And I would like to learn some lisp. Can someone point me to a good free place to learn it? 2015-10-23T19:42:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: give pcl to hugdru 2015-10-23T19:42:04Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hugdru''. 2015-10-23T19:42:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: show pcl to hugdru 2015-10-23T19:42:14Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hugdru''. 2015-10-23T19:42:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: pcl 2015-10-23T19:42:18Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-10-23T19:42:24Z reb`: fiddlerwoaroof: How could someone know the answer to your question? 2015-10-23T19:42:41Z hugdru: Thanks :) 2015-10-23T19:42:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: reb`: About null-terminated strings? 2015-10-23T19:43:26Z reb`: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes. With C, you can evaluate "hello"[5]. There's no equivalent in Common Lisp. 2015-10-23T19:43:58Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-23T19:44:02Z reb`: (aref "hello" 5) results in an index out of bounds error. 2015-10-23T19:44:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: reb`: you could try (describe 'string), I guess 2015-10-23T19:44:07Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:44:27Z Shinmera: reb`: We-e-ell. With safety 0 you could potentially maybe get some results. 2015-10-23T19:45:47Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:46:38Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: The standard does not specify if strings are null-terminated or not, as it specifies them in terms of vectors specialized to character and each of its required specialized subtypes (base-char and nil). An implementation may CHOOSE to add a NUL-terminator on strings; however, that is an implementation choice not required by the standard. 2015-10-23T19:46:53Z Wojciech__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T19:47:06Z Shinmera: An implementation may also choose to not even lay out things contiguously in memory. 2015-10-23T19:47:07Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:47:13Z nyef: That too. 2015-10-23T19:47:16Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:47:30Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-23T19:47:55Z Shinmera: Generally the spec does a pretty good job at not saying anything about the hardware specific implementation. 2015-10-23T19:49:00Z Xach: i am reminded of this info about boole http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250222105960910%40naggum.no.html 2015-10-23T19:51:19Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:54:12Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:55:03Z pjb: nyef: in presence of fill-pointer, strings basically CANNOT be 0-terminated. 2015-10-23T19:55:06Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-23T19:56:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T19:57:50Z nyef: Good point. 2015-10-23T19:57:59Z nyef: Also, eesh. 2015-10-23T20:00:14Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:00:17Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-23T20:01:30Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:01:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T20:01:57Z tuxbrave__ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:01:59Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:02:49Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:04:14Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-23T20:04:33Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:04:35Z tuxbrave_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:05:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:08:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:10:02Z dmiles_akf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T20:11:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:12:51Z hugdru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T20:17:24Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:17:55Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T20:17:56Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-23T20:19:41Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:20:01Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T20:20:58Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:21:26Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T20:21:46Z heddwch is now known as agent_nchambers 2015-10-23T20:22:27Z agent_nchambers is now known as heddwch 2015-10-23T20:22:55Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:25:03Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:25:24Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T20:25:43Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:25:45Z admg joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:26:51Z snv left #lisp 2015-10-23T20:27:04Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T20:27:17Z PlasmaStar left #lisp 2015-10-23T20:27:26Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-23T20:29:15Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:30:37Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:30:42Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:33:53Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:34:34Z NHRR joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:34:38Z NHRR: Hi ! I want to share with you with I've discovered recently - an app better than skype or whatsapp + you can earn free money by using it - https://www.wowapp.com/w/naheer/join 2015-10-23T20:34:49Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:35:37Z Xach: NHRR: do not spam this channel. 2015-10-23T20:37:31Z digiorgi joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:37:38Z trinitr0n: who has ops and a banhammer? 2015-10-23T20:37:55Z trinitr0n: NHRR: get the fuck out of here with your bullshit. 2015-10-23T20:40:39Z NHRR quit 2015-10-23T20:40:56Z NHRR joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:41:05Z NHRR quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T20:41:20Z NHRR joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:41:23Z NHRR quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T20:42:03Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:44:17Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:44:25Z Xach: trinitr0n: Unnecessary. 2015-10-23T20:47:23Z admg quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-10-23T20:47:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:49:08Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-23T20:49:15Z trinitr0n: Xach: don't care. IRC is one of the last sacred advertising free zones. Attempts to advertise on it should be met with hostility. 2015-10-23T20:49:27Z Xach: Already done. 2015-10-23T20:50:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: is it possible to delay index creation until the end of the import? 2015-10-23T20:50:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: (it looks like it's trying to create the indexes before the tables) 2015-10-23T20:51:04Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T20:51:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:52:02Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:53:02Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-10-23T20:53:56Z White_Flame: reb`: CL strings are derived from general vectors, which have all the features (as pjb brought up) taht really don't make sense with terminator markers 2015-10-23T20:54:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T20:54:20Z White_Flame: though nothing precludes a CL implementation from doing all the extra shuffling work to keep one around 2015-10-23T20:55:18Z White_Flame: but in practice, nobody's going to do that 2015-10-23T20:55:42Z pjb: actually, ecl adds a null byte at the end of string vectors, IIRC. Only it wouldn't do good with fill-pointers. 2015-10-23T20:56:03Z Shinmera: Yeah, adding a null pointer can be useful for CFFI. 2015-10-23T20:56:08Z Shinmera: *a null 2015-10-23T20:56:13Z Shinmera: scratch that pointer. 2015-10-23T20:56:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T20:57:30Z Bicyclidine: maybe you could just include a null byte for only simple-strings. 2015-10-23T20:58:50Z White_Flame: pjb: I presume it adds a single 0 after the character storage array, as a safety measure for passing to C? 2015-10-23T20:59:12Z White_Flame: and not as a CL end-of-string marker as far as CL is concerned? 2015-10-23T20:59:57Z Shinmera: Well you'll want LENGTH to be O(1) anyway, so you'll want to store the actual length somewhere anyway. 2015-10-23T21:00:28Z White_Flame: plenty of software gets by with strlen being O(n) 2015-10-23T21:00:55Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:02:33Z pjb: White_Flame: yes, for C. 2015-10-23T21:02:41Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T21:02:45Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-23T21:04:59Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T21:09:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T21:09:50Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-23T21:12:56Z PlasmaStar left #lisp 2015-10-23T21:13:32Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:14:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:15:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T21:15:56Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:16:06Z PlasmaStar quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-23T21:17:17Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:17:17Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:18:00Z zygentoma quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-23T21:20:32Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:22:16Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T21:24:37Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T21:24:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Otherwise it's going to leak. 2015-10-23T22:10:30Z ajf-: i did set `list` and `n` 2015-10-23T22:10:47Z ajf-: in both `list`'s 2015-10-23T22:11:52Z Xach: ajf-: the assumption is that you have existing variables already. you can't substitute values directly in the form. 2015-10-23T22:12:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:12:12Z ajf-: (setf o_33pg (loop while o_33p collect (loop repeat 8 collect (pop o_33p)))) 2015-10-23T22:12:16Z ajf-: that's how mine looks 2015-10-23T22:14:13Z resttime: Shinmera: Thanks, I was unsure if garbage collection handled things so I guess it doesn't. 2015-10-23T22:14:31Z Shinmera: resttime: You're dealing with FFI, so it can't. 2015-10-23T22:14:48Z Shinmera: resttime: The Qtools documentation talks in quite a bit of length about that though-- you should read it. 2015-10-23T22:15:22Z resttime: Hmmm, though the problem still remains. As long as it doesn't get collected, QPainter still has a lock on that specific QImage. 2015-10-23T22:15:24Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ Qtools Components > Object Handling 2015-10-23T22:16:22Z resttime: Which for me meant either using a single instance or calling #_end on each instance. 2015-10-23T22:16:42Z Shinmera: WITH-FINALIZING will automatically deallocate and end the painter once the scope is left. 2015-10-23T22:16:59Z 77CAA22TO quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:17:01Z Shinmera: Or are you trying to paint from multiple threads simultaneously? 2015-10-23T22:17:14Z 7GHABHI8O quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:18:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-23T22:19:02Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:19:37Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:21:15Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:21:35Z resttime: Shinmera: No, not multithreading just regular commonqt. I'll check out qtools thanks. 2015-10-23T22:22:14Z resttime: Seems to have the right idea about how things should be handled leaps ahead of me hahaha. 2015-10-23T22:22:33Z Shinmera: Using CommonQt plain is not recommended, no 2015-10-23T22:23:01Z Shinmera: Though it too provides a (less powerful) WITH-OBJECTS macro that automatically deallocates on scope leaving. 2015-10-23T22:24:58Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:26:33Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:26:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:28:46Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T22:30:02Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:30:49Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-23T22:31:09Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:31:21Z octophore quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:31:21Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:32:56Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:33:12Z stokachu quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:33:47Z octo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:34:04Z stokachu joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:34:46Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T22:34:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:34:59Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:35:10Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:35:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:35:20Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:35:40Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:35:43Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:35:59Z digiorgi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-23T22:40:54Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:43:52Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-23T22:44:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:50:17Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-23T22:50:25Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:52:24Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-23T22:53:14Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:53:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:53:45Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-23T22:54:57Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T22:55:38Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-10-23T22:56:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-23T22:58:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-23T23:00:00Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-23T23:00:55Z limmen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T23:02:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T23:07:30Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-23T23:11:19Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-23T23:15:15Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Never surrender! 2015-10-24T01:32:50Z drmeister: Uh - what were we talking about? 2015-10-24T01:33:39Z Xach: lisp, love, and life 2015-10-24T01:40:48Z packardwelles joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:41:13Z packardwelles: which of the following sorting algorithms has the best asymptotic runtime complexity? 2015-10-24T01:43:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T01:43:29Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:45:47Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:46:15Z packardwelles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T01:46:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:47:03Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-24T01:47:12Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T01:47:47Z DANtheBE- is now known as DANtheBEASTman 2015-10-24T01:47:50Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:48:00Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:48:03Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T01:48:27Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T01:51:18Z atgnag: Is there a common-lisp library with wget-like functionality? 2015-10-24T01:51:47Z Xach: atgnag: drakma is one easy option 2015-10-24T01:51:56Z Xach: but it depends on what functionality you mean 2015-10-24T01:52:10Z Xach: recursive fetching of a site is not something drakma does on its own, for example 2015-10-24T01:52:23Z atgnag: I just want to retrieve json documents from an api. 2015-10-24T01:53:12Z Xach: drakma is an easy option to fetch things via http 2015-10-24T01:53:26Z atgnag: All right. Thanks. 2015-10-24T01:55:49Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-24T01:55:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T01:57:22Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:00:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:00:42Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:01:30Z atgnag: Strange. When I try (drakma:http-request "https://lainchan.org/lit/res/2040.json"), I get a long string of numbers, rather than the json I see when I open it in Firefox. 2015-10-24T02:01:39Z atgnag: Am I missing something? 2015-10-24T02:02:03Z Xach: atgnag: you get the same numbers sent to firefox, but firefox helpfully interprets them as characters. 2015-10-24T02:02:37Z Xach: atgnag: there are some ways to get characters back via drakma, and ways to convert them after the fact, and i think some json libraries can deal with the numbers directly 2015-10-24T02:03:09Z Xach: the drakma interpretation involves some fiddling that i don't remember, but a search might turn up 2015-10-24T02:03:46Z atgnag: Oh nevermind, I forgot to read the fucking manual. 2015-10-24T02:03:57Z atgnag: "For non-textual content types, a vector of octets is returned." 2015-10-24T02:04:19Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Hm. 2015-10-24T02:23:33Z pjb: ryu0: actually it makes debugging easier. 2015-10-24T02:24:04Z ryu0: pjb: how so? 2015-10-24T02:24:07Z pjb: ryu0: because now, when you have random bits in memory, you cannot misinterpret them: all random bits are tagged, and you know what type there are of. 2015-10-24T02:25:08Z Xach: ryu0: sbcl checks many types at compile time and will signal when it detects contradictions and problems 2015-10-24T02:25:16Z ryu0: Oh, huh. 2015-10-24T02:25:20Z pjb: So for example: (loop for data across #(1 2.3 "hello" (a b c) world) collect (+ 1 data)) will signal an error when it reach the string "hello", because you cannot do (+ 1 "hello"); (in C, statically typed, you can do "hello"+1). 2015-10-24T02:25:57Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:26:10Z pjb: Also, notice how (loop for data across #(1 2.3 3/4 #c(1 2)) collect (+ 1 data)) #| --> (2 3.3 7/4 #C(2 2)) |# works perfectly correctly, whatever the actual type of the random bit. 2015-10-24T02:26:19Z whiteline_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:26:42Z pjb: In a statically typed language, you would get random wrong results, when interpreting 2.3 or 3/4 as int instead of as what they are. 2015-10-24T02:26:55Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:27:05Z ryu0: yea, i remember... 2015-10-24T02:27:23Z ryu0: like dividing integers and assigning to a floating point variable. 2015-10-24T02:27:33Z ryu0: you need a cast for that to work as expected. 2015-10-24T02:28:20Z pjb: Yes. In lisp, variables are not typed, they can hold any lisp object. Lisp objects (values) are typed instead. ANd the type checking, (which can be done at run-time or at compilation time, depending on the capacities of the compiler) is much stricter than in most languages. 2015-10-24T02:28:47Z ryu0: I believe there's two main Lisp standards? Common Lisp and Scheme? 2015-10-24T02:28:52Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-24T02:28:56Z ryu0: Is there some reason to prefer one over the other? 2015-10-24T02:29:16Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-24T02:29:16Z pjb: IMO scheme is more pedagogical, while CL is better for real applications. 2015-10-24T02:29:40Z atgnag: ryu0: Racket is also quite popular, and picolisp is still a thing. 2015-10-24T02:29:51Z pjb: Also, with CL, all the implementations implement the same language, and almost all the libraries work on all the implementations, while the situation is much more complex in scheme. 2015-10-24T02:30:04Z pjb: Also, there are 7 different scheme standards, while there's a single CL standard. 2015-10-24T02:30:39Z pjb: (ok, only the 3 or 4 last scheme standards are used, but from r4rs to r7rs, you'll find implementations of each). 2015-10-24T02:30:42Z ryu0 winces. 2015-10-24T02:30:50Z nyef: Two CL standards, only the more recent of which is used. 2015-10-24T02:30:57Z pjb: ok. 2015-10-24T02:31:17Z atgnag: As for Cl vs Scheme, I believe Common-Lisp:Scheme::Python:Lua 2015-10-24T02:31:29Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:31:53Z ryu0: what is the recommended resource for learning CL? i have two I picked up when they were on sale... 2015-10-24T02:31:54Z ryu0: hm. 2015-10-24T02:32:26Z ryu0: http://store.doverpublications.com/0486498204.html and http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593272814.do 2015-10-24T02:32:27Z pjb: Well there are half a dozen incompatible python too, python 2.7 python 3.0 python 3.1 python 3.3 and how come cl-python is not used more? Because the "modules" written for Cpython are not compatible? etc. 2015-10-24T02:32:43Z jason_m: ryu0: Practical Common Lisp is a favorite: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-10-24T02:32:52Z pjb: ryu0: http://cliki.net/ 2015-10-24T02:32:52Z atgnag: By the way, is there a nice guide to manipulating S-exressions targetted at someone used to json? 2015-10-24T02:33:05Z ryu0: hm. 2015-10-24T02:33:16Z jason_m: ryu0: And when you're ready to start playing with libraries, quicklisp is great: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2015-10-24T02:33:17Z pjb: atgnag: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 2015-10-24T02:33:43Z jason_m: ryu0: And for a list of some popular libraries, http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ 2015-10-24T02:34:47Z ryu0: pjb: that's the same ebook i just linked. lol 2015-10-24T02:34:51Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-24T02:34:52Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:36:36Z ryu0: Lisp's syntax makes for an interesting puzzle. what's the best way to indent it? hm. 2015-10-24T02:36:50Z ryu0: or at least what seems a common choice. 2015-10-24T02:37:10Z Xach: ryu0: there's a lot of example code to follow. much of that code is indented with emacs's default choices for indentation. 2015-10-24T02:37:23Z ryu0: Oh, i've come to prefer vim. 2015-10-24T02:37:43Z ryu0: huh. 2015-10-24T02:37:49Z ryu0: well, it can't hurt to give it a try. 2015-10-24T02:38:59Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:40:24Z jason_m: ryu0: You can get slimv (http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531) for vim. I tried it for a while and was frustrated. Bit the bullet and tried emacs, and the support in emacs is much richer. 2015-10-24T02:40:32Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:41:24Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-24T02:43:26Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:44:39Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:45:04Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T02:45:11Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:49:59Z resttime quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-24T02:52:22Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T02:52:31Z atgnag: Is there a way to return a member of a list within a list, by what the first member of the list is? 2015-10-24T02:52:57Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-24T02:53:54Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:54:07Z Xach: atgnag: yes. 2015-10-24T02:54:35Z atgnag: Really? 2015-10-24T02:55:32Z atgnag: So for example, in ((foo bar) (bar buzz) (buzz foo)), I could get the one starting with bar, regardless what order the sublists are in? 2015-10-24T02:56:10Z tuxbrave__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T02:56:17Z Xach: Sure. (find 'bar list :key 'first) is one easy way. 2015-10-24T02:56:25Z aap joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:56:35Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:56:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-24T02:58:57Z atgnag: Thanks. 2015-10-24T03:00:13Z aap_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:00:22Z hydan: is there a library that would parse a list and print summary of its structure? say for something like parsed json from cl-json. 2015-10-24T03:01:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:01:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:01:38Z hydan: or is this something trivial 2015-10-24T03:03:51Z Xach: hydan: what kind of summary? 2015-10-24T03:04:11Z Xach: usually PRINT is good for printing a list. PPRINT, too. 2015-10-24T03:05:47Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:05:54Z mood joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:06:41Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:07:43Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:08:31Z resttime quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-24T03:08:50Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:09:06Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:12:46Z tuxbrave__ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:13:19Z hydan: Xach: i. e. I want the code to adapt the loop to the data. sort of figure out "how to loop over something you don't know the structure of". 2015-10-24T03:13:40Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:13:53Z Xach: hydan: ok. in what way do you want it to adapt? 2015-10-24T03:14:37Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:15:27Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:15:45Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:16:25Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:17:48Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: ccl-logbot fantazo Oladon1 josteink phoe_krk_ badkins tuxbrave__ resttime mood aap joneshf-laptop ryankarason wildlander manuel_ bb010g mathrick Ethan- sz0 NeverDie jason_m xrash _sjs papachan sheilong ogamita danlentz_ karswell quazimodo prphp BlueRavenGT pjb jdz shookees hydan stokachu octo_ kobain Jubb Whymind PlasmaStar snv dmiles_afk fridim_ MoALTz hazz preacherAKAnd Oddity Jesin eazar001 Natch H4ns Patzy yeticry ASau HDurer wizzo xificurC 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: OrangeShark zeroish oleo_ defaultxr s00pcan ajf- failproofshark emaczen Uptime nydel harish happy-dude clog hitecnologys larme gko lonjil xristos rvirding ggherdov spacebat drmeister clop loke jeaye p_l jackdaniel _death ecraven DANtheBEASTman __main__ pchrist eak_ HDurer__ zyoung_ add^__ russell-1 zwdr jackc- d4gg4d myrkraverk Guest68879 trn sigjuice Firedancer nopf ozzloy heddwch sword``` srcerer fiddlerwoaroof keen______ DrCode ryu0 araujo yrdz zacts 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: dTal vap1 mearnsh kjak pillton dxtr farhaven Subfusc fikusz jewel JuanDaugherty Guest73889 wemeetagain dougk_ wolf_mozart Quadrescence taij33n brucem swflint segmond foom frankS2 cyberlard Bugboy1028 voidlily arrsim wooden__ ktx_ killmaster PuercoPop edran_ funnel White_Flame eagleflo vedwin_ p_l|back1p loke_ scymtym__ AntiSpamMeta nzambe AeroNotix zaquest jself Takumo CrazyEddy xan__ aftershave nyef sbryant sshirokov Walex2 sellout theethicalegoist 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: abbe theBlackDragon ivan\ cyraxjoe vhost- angavrilov mwehner stux|RC-only NhanH bjorkintosh brandonz reb` j_king moei kini bogdanm CEnnis91 loz WizJin NaNDude atgnag cmatei otwieracz balle p8m scharan quasisane wailord tifa zymurgy |3b| Fullma hydan` dilated_dinosaur antoszka blubjr dstatyvka DeadTrickster trinitr0n rotty l1x troydm cmbntr moredhel Kruppe benaiah housel alexherbo2 cell yang radioninja_work haasn heurist easye Khisanth fluter salva 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: faheem__ tessier norfumpit Tristam vlnx joast akkad zerac cross yauz vsync- gigetoo DGASAU smull lvh kanru SHODAN someone Mandus jlarocco_ sepi ym HammyJammy tkd Neet gendl Viaken kalzz gensym sytse aeth ahungry_ Bike sssi Riviera Fade specbot minion froggey gniourf MrWoohoo nightfly alchemis7 Seeq grindhold eMBee mtd low-prof1 oskarth bbz phf mission712 sivoais nimiux renard_ tokik cods lpaste cantstanya SlashLife micro_ musegarden1 setheus trig-ger 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: sfa jasom hratsimi1ah wyan rvchangu- schoppenhauer johs Ober decent axion TMA drdo arpunk Fleurety asedeno pootler jozip newcup lancetw ircbrows- gz billstclair GGMethos torpig krrrcks ferada z0d ft SilentEcho alex6407 lieven vsync___ joshe cataska alms_clozure danlentz samebchase bgs100 Tordek fe[nl]ix mikaelj phryk Blkt oGMo ramus dwchandler anachrom1 |nix|`` isoraqathedh cpt_nemo vert2 PinealGlandOptic arrubin emma tomaw phadthai zbigniew flip214 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: bobbysmith007 honkfestival snits yeltzooo sulky diginet tstc pok anunnaki thomas jsnell rtoym profess sekrit DylanJ djh ``Erik finnrobi_ opc0de Cthulhux` kbtr jayne joga roscoe_tw dsp_ copec eschulte o`connor euphoriaa gabot Colleen justinmcp ski john-mcaleely Raimondi ThePhoeron_ martinhath ngrud kjeldahl cibs dlowe moop jlarocco dan64 aerique Xach hyoyoung_ jtz knobo-net djinni` zickzackv ck_ whartung mach constantinexvi Zotan XachX splittist 2015-10-24T03:26:31Z names: victor_lowther ec\ lemoinem Zhivago les` Lord_Nightmare narendraj9 dim tokenrove epitron replcated 2015-10-24T03:33:16Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:35:39Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:39:25Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-24T03:40:13Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:44:39Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T03:45:53Z gensyms joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:46:06Z axion: newbie question: how do i M-x slime create the REPL in a vertical split instead of horizontal? 2015-10-24T03:47:14Z jason_m: axion: on my system if emacs is full screen (or possibly "large enough"), it will do that by default 2015-10-24T03:47:14Z gensyms: C-x 3 2015-10-24T03:48:18Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:48:43Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:50:07Z axion: that just opens a new window to the right of slime. i want slime to initially be on the bottom 2015-10-24T03:50:32Z atgnag: Hmm… I'm thinking of cheating, and creating a jq→lisp translator. 2015-10-24T03:51:07Z atgnag: Of course, I'm not knowledgeable enough for that yet either. 2015-10-24T03:52:33Z hydan: axion: alternative is to use popwin or similar emacs package and explicitly set things like that 2015-10-24T03:52:43Z axion: that's what i'm doing now, thanks 2015-10-24T03:53:46Z jason_m: I'm surprised the positioning of the window isn't an option. It was in slimv. 2015-10-24T03:54:29Z axion: exactly. i'm migrating to emacs after using slimv for many years 2015-10-24T03:54:36Z atgnag: Does anyone have some functions that they use on json:decode-json output? 2015-10-24T03:55:08Z hydan: jason_m: window positions and layouts are a major PITA in emacs. Some people use multiple frames to avoid some of those. 2015-10-24T03:56:48Z hydan: I guess stumpwm users have more peace of mind.. but don't know for sure since I don't use it. 2015-10-24T03:57:09Z jason_m: if there isn't something already, i wonder how hard it would be to write a flip-windows function. Maybe I'll make that my first stab at elisp. 2015-10-24T03:57:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T03:57:38Z jason_m: Then if you get a vertical split and want horizontal, you can just issue one key sequence and flip it 2015-10-24T03:58:06Z axion: jason_m: such a thing exists 2015-10-24T04:00:19Z hydan takes a note to get this right in the editor he will write someday 2015-10-24T04:00:35Z axion: jason_m: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TransposeFrame 2015-10-24T04:01:32Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:01:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-24T04:01:44Z jason_m: axion: Thanks. transpose-frame is exactly what I had in mind. maybe i'll still try to write it on my own and compare to theirs :) 2015-10-24T04:01:49Z atgnag: How could I extract some stuff from this json-derived sexp? https://pastee.org/kb365 2015-10-24T04:02:08Z atgnag: No car/cdr tricks, because I want to assume things won't always be in the same order. 2015-10-24T04:02:16Z hydan: Good morning beach 2015-10-24T04:05:15Z hydan: atgnag: I was asking about a similar problem earlier. I think the issues is that list is not really an optimal data structure for this 2015-10-24T04:05:47Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:06:40Z atgnag: hydan: I think it's fine. I just have a hard time figuring out how to write the tools to manipulate it. 2015-10-24T04:07:33Z atgnag: In fact, I kinda wish some came with cl-json. 2015-10-24T04:07:46Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T04:08:41Z nyef: atgnag: As dreadful as that representation is, might I suggest the use of GETF ? 2015-10-24T04:09:29Z nyef: beach: Good morning. 2015-10-24T04:09:36Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-24T04:11:07Z atgnag: Well, I suppose it's dreadful because json is dreadful. 2015-10-24T04:11:29Z nyef: beach: So, I found something fun recently: (expt 2.0d0 12d0) => 4096.000000000001d0 on at least one of my machines. 2015-10-24T04:12:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:13:19Z beach: nyef: Bad precision? 2015-10-24T04:13:39Z nyef: I get up to eight bits of noise in the bottom of a double-float. 2015-10-24T04:13:50Z beach: Yeah, not so great. 2015-10-24T04:13:58Z nyef: It's repeatable, and it's from calling pow(3), which is a libm function. 2015-10-24T04:14:06Z beach: Ah. 2015-10-24T04:14:28Z beach: And do we know how pow(3) is implemented? 2015-10-24T04:15:20Z jlarocco_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T04:15:45Z atgnag: nyef: That should probably work. Thanks. 2015-10-24T04:15:50Z nyef: Well, in theory, this machine is running glibc. 2015-10-24T04:16:13Z nyef: Which has an impressive blob of C code to do the operation. 2015-10-24T04:16:26Z beach: Did you look at the code? 2015-10-24T04:16:43Z nyef: As far as I could. 2015-10-24T04:16:44Z gensyms quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2015-10-24T04:17:04Z nyef: I might step through it with gdb tomorrow if I can. 2015-10-24T04:17:06Z Bike: i find gnu standard libraries really hard to read, personally. 2015-10-24T04:17:28Z hydan: Xach: I guess what I am trying to do is sort of similar to what sdraw from Touretzky's book does, vaguely. Thanks anyway. 2015-10-24T04:17:33Z nyef: Bike: It's worse than that, apparently it includes some IBM "accurate math" library as well. 2015-10-24T04:17:41Z Bike: oh boy. 2015-10-24T04:18:30Z nyef: And then pkhuong pointed out that the effects that I'm seeing are precisely what we get if I run (exp (* 12d0 (log 2d0))). 2015-10-24T04:18:59Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:19:10Z nyef: And it's only this one machine that's doing it, AFAICT. 2015-10-24T04:19:36Z nyef: So I don't know if it's the hardware, the Linux kernel, or the libm/libc. 2015-10-24T04:20:02Z Bike: awesome. 2015-10-24T04:20:07Z beach: How would the kernel be involved? 2015-10-24T04:20:12Z nyef: I can rule out SBCL, because I wrote a few C test programs and they get the same results. 2015-10-24T04:20:33Z nyef: beach: If there's any FPU emulation, or kernel control of the FPU mode. 2015-10-24T04:20:43Z beach: I see. 2015-10-24T04:22:14Z nyef: I think that if one of the FPU mode bits is set wrong then the low parts of double-float registers might get lost, somehow, but by the same token I think that it'd've shown up already. 2015-10-24T04:22:55Z beach: The first thing would be to try to write some assembly code for the equivalent operation. 2015-10-24T04:23:23Z nyef: Problem: I don't understand the C code for the operation. 2015-10-24T04:23:34Z nyef: And there's a goodly chunk of it. 2015-10-24T04:24:16Z beach: I am surprised. It doesn't look like a complicated thing. 2015-10-24T04:24:28Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:24:34Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:24:50Z nyef: To get better accuracy than just doing the exp * log thing? 2015-10-24T04:25:15Z beach: Yeah, to try at least. 2015-10-24T04:25:20Z hydan: nyef: which arch is that occurring on? 2015-10-24T04:25:22Z nyef: Plus all of the special cases for negative arguments, infinities, NaNs... 2015-10-24T04:25:42Z nyef: hydan: A big-endian MIPS-IV running an o32 userland. 2015-10-24T04:25:45Z beach: nyef: Well, at first, you can ignore those. 2015-10-24T04:26:10Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:26:40Z nyef: I'm actually thinking that a debian chroot might be my next step. 2015-10-24T04:27:01Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:28:24Z beach: What will that do? 2015-10-24T04:29:37Z nyef: I'd get a different libc and libm. 2015-10-24T04:29:49Z nyef: While keeping the hardware and kernel the same. 2015-10-24T04:30:03Z beach: Oh, you need the high precision? I thought you were just amusing yourself. 2015-10-24T04:30:25Z nyef: SBCL build failure trying to define MOST-POSITIVE-DOUBLE-FLOAT, unfortunately. 2015-10-24T04:30:43Z nyef: Thus far observed to occur on one machine: mine. 2015-10-24T04:31:07Z nyef: On the other hand, our other data point is a QEMU system, so it doesn't quite count. 2015-10-24T04:33:24Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:35:45Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-24T04:36:11Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:36:17Z beach: If you ever figure out the problem, I am interested in knowing what you find out. 2015-10-24T04:37:28Z Oladon1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-24T04:37:31Z nyef: Well, the first problem is that SBCL is relying on a particular floating-point behavior in the cross-compiler. 2015-10-24T04:37:42Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:37:50Z beach: That is a problem. 2015-10-24T04:38:02Z beach: Why on earth would you need floats in the cross compiler? 2015-10-24T04:38:18Z nyef: To define MOST-POSITIVE-DOUBLE-FLOAT, of course! 2015-10-24T04:39:11Z beach: I guess I don't see why the cross compiler has to do that, but maybe I will when I get that far in SICL bootstrapping. 2015-10-24T04:39:48Z nyef: It still doesn't explain what's going on with pow(3), though. 2015-10-24T04:39:55Z beach: Right. 2015-10-24T04:40:22Z nyef: Okay, I need to get some sleep. 2015-10-24T04:40:33Z beach: Good night nyef. 2015-10-24T04:40:45Z nyef: Thank you. Have a good morning. 2015-10-24T04:40:55Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:42:02Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:45:50Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:49:02Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:53:16Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T04:53:50Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T04:55:08Z atgnag: This function isn't working as a hoped. 2015-10-24T04:55:16Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:56:56Z atgnag: (sexp-keys ((FIZZ BUZZ BAR) (BUZZ BAR FIZZ) (BAR FIZZ BUZZ))) returns nil. 2015-10-24T04:57:12Z atgnag: I would expect it to return (fizz buzz bar). 2015-10-24T04:57:15Z atgnag: Any hints? 2015-10-24T04:57:33Z atgnag: Oh, I see I forgot the url. https://pastee.org/8mpt5 2015-10-24T04:58:21Z beach: atgnag: LOOP returns NIL by default. 2015-10-24T04:59:10Z atgnag: Oh. 2015-10-24T04:59:24Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-24T04:59:55Z beach: atgnag: And that is really bad code. 2015-10-24T05:00:04Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T05:00:11Z beach: Quadratic complexity. 2015-10-24T05:00:19Z atgnag: All right. It's fixed. 2015-10-24T05:00:19Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T05:00:26Z atgnag: And yeah, I know it's bad. I'll fix it. 2015-10-24T05:00:50Z beach: If that is what you want to do, do (mapcar #'car sexp) instead. 2015-10-24T05:00:59Z atgnag: Maybe. Could I see what it looks like when you refactor it? 2015-10-24T05:01:31Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:01:32Z JuanDaugherty: i think he did 2015-10-24T05:01:45Z beach: 1 line instead of 5. 2015-10-24T05:01:55Z atgnag: beach: Thanks. 2015-10-24T05:02:58Z JuanDaugherty: beach, you meant the sexp-keys expression would be 5 lines? 2015-10-24T05:03:16Z beach: atgnag: Anytime. 2015-10-24T05:03:41Z beach: JuanDaugherty: I mean that the code in the URL has 5 lines and (mapcar #'car sexp) has 1 line. 2015-10-24T05:04:02Z JuanDaugherty: ok the URL must be on the scroll 2015-10-24T05:04:24Z beach: "Oh, I see I forgot the url. https://pastee.org/8mpt5" 2015-10-24T05:05:41Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T05:11:35Z JuanDaugherty: ah, did see he'd posted 2015-10-24T05:11:39Z JuanDaugherty: *didn't 2015-10-24T05:12:00Z blubjr: hi juandaugherty 2015-10-24T05:12:10Z JuanDaugherty: yello blubjr 2015-10-24T05:13:53Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-24T05:14:17Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:15:38Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:19:33Z vadgeayna joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:20:26Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T05:21:27Z zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-24T05:29:47Z Uptime is now known as irrreverant 2015-10-24T05:30:07Z irrreverant is now known as Uptime 2015-10-24T05:33:22Z atgnag: Name: Microsoft Windows Collection 2015-10-24T05:33:38Z atgnag: Ratio: 0.8 2015-10-24T05:34:47Z atgnag: Oops, wrong channel. 2015-10-24T05:35:06Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:35:44Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T05:39:19Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T05:40:06Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:41:13Z vadgeayna: atgnag:i am reporting you to every authority of the internet against your illegal actions 2015-10-24T05:41:18Z vadgeayna: i hope you rot in prison 2015-10-24T05:41:26Z vadgeayna: and have a great time rotting in prison at that :) 2015-10-24T05:41:43Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:42:02Z atgnag: What illegal actions? 2015-10-24T05:42:13Z vadgeayna: pirating software 2015-10-24T05:42:31Z atgnag: What software? 2015-10-24T05:42:46Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T05:42:47Z vadgeayna: you know damn well 2015-10-24T05:42:58Z beach: Stick to the topic, please. 2015-10-24T05:43:17Z vadgeayna: just know that i filed a report to the freenode staff as well as a formal report to http://bsa.org 2015-10-24T05:44:27Z atgnag: "Fuck the MPAA! Fuck the RIAA! Fuck the suits at the BSA, and fuck'em all for the DMCA!" — Futuristic Sex Robotz 2015-10-24T05:45:02Z beach: OK, enough, please. 2015-10-24T05:45:09Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:45:23Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:46:23Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T05:47:40Z beach: OK, help me with this one. In SICL, the unbound function is a function that, when called, calls ERROR. That way, no explicit test for unbound is needed. For the unbound slot value, nothing similar is possible. In order for things to be fast, the unbound slot value needs to be a machine constant. But it needs to be a constant that the application programmer can't produce, so it must have a unique bit pattern which is not a valid 2015-10-24T05:47:41Z beach: Common Lisp object. 2015-10-24T05:47:47Z beach: So far so good. Now, how do I indicate the unbound slot value in the system source code? I am thinking it should look like a constant, like +unbound-slot-value+. To make that work, I can define it as a symbol macro that expands to a host value in the host bootstrapping environment, and to a inlined function call in the target environment, or something like that. 2015-10-24T05:47:52Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-24T05:48:10Z beach: Does that seem reasonable? 2015-10-24T05:51:37Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T05:53:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-10-24T05:54:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T05:56:22Z lmohseni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T05:58:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:03:01Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:06:02Z mwehner quit (Quit: brb) 2015-10-24T06:07:10Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:08:15Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:08:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T06:09:21Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:09:22Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T06:10:08Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-24T06:11:12Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:11:47Z askatasu1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:11:55Z pjb: beach: it could be as simple as an uninterned symbol. 2015-10-24T06:12:37Z pjb: Assuming that any attempt to read a variable bound to that symbol would lead to an undefined variable error, it should never leak out of the implementation. 2015-10-24T06:13:30Z pjb: Therefore, I doubt a symbol-macro is needed. 2015-10-24T06:15:54Z pjb: On the other hand, if you want to parameterize the "bit pattern" and test function, you probably want to define an API for that, with provision to have it defined at the various levels (CL level, MIR level, machine code?). 2015-10-24T06:17:33Z pjb: For example, one implementation may use for it an invalid address, and handle the processor trap to signal the error. It might be more efficient to do it like that on some processors. 2015-10-24T06:18:12Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-24T06:19:11Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:21:00Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:23:33Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:24:05Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:24:20Z lmohseni quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:24:53Z askatasu1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:25:26Z vadgeayna: what is the best lisp compiler? 2015-10-24T06:26:02Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:26:53Z pjb: what is "best"? 2015-10-24T06:27:12Z vadgeayna: something that will make my code lightweight and run extremely fast 2015-10-24T06:27:19Z pjb: clisp compiler is probably the cleanest of the CL compilers you may read. 2015-10-24T06:27:43Z pjb: Oh, if you want a slow compiler that compiles code that runs fast, then you want sbcl. 2015-10-24T06:27:56Z pjb: But if you want a faster compiler producing native code, ccl is better. 2015-10-24T06:28:16Z pjb: (and even, sometimes ccl produces code that runs faster than sbcl). 2015-10-24T06:29:27Z vadgeayna: thanks a lot 2015-10-24T06:29:42Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-10-24T06:33:08Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:33:49Z beach: pjb: That particular aspect is not a problem for me because I have first-class global environments. I just don't define that symbol in the environment available to the application programmer. 2015-10-24T06:34:10Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2015-10-24T06:34:13Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-10-24T06:34:28Z beach: pjb: So I can have different environments at bootstrapping time and at normal run-time. 2015-10-24T06:36:00Z beach: pjb: An invalid address is not enough, because it is entirely possible that it is not used as an address at all. Take a slot reader for instance. Once it finds the place to read, it must make a choice to either return what it finds, or signal an error. 2015-10-24T06:36:20Z pjb: beach: right. But my point is that an implementation may use different strategies (depending on the target processor) for such thing. Basically, you have three levels of doing it: test variable accesses using lisp code; test variable accesses using processor instructions (eg. ccTRAP); use a value such as the processor traps automatically as soon as it's read, or more probably, dereferenced. 2015-10-24T06:36:38Z beach: Right. 2015-10-24T06:36:44Z pjb: So the question is how you represent this implementation choice and the details, in sicl, to generate the right code and run-time library. 2015-10-24T06:36:54Z beach: Sure. 2015-10-24T06:37:56Z pjb: But it seems that in general, you are making already specific implementation choices, don't you? 2015-10-24T06:38:11Z beach: I try to be as general as possible. 2015-10-24T06:38:40Z beach: But this is SICL, not Cleavir, so I can be specific when I have to. 2015-10-24T06:38:46Z pjb: Then using a unique value and testing it from lisp code seems to be the most general and "portable" thing to do. 2015-10-24T06:38:58Z beach: I tend to agree. 2015-10-24T06:39:12Z pjb: In addition, you can deal with it with the type system to optimize the test out. 2015-10-24T06:39:27Z beach: That will come later I think. 2015-10-24T06:40:47Z sw2wolf joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:41:02Z beach: Now, I just have to apply my new rule that the code should look as "natural" (I don't like that word. Perhaps "idiomatic" is better) as possible. So I don't want to make compromises due to operational constraints. 2015-10-24T06:41:52Z beach: For example, I think it is ECL that has code like (defparameter *standard-class-slots* '((x ...) (y ...))) 2015-10-24T06:42:26Z beach: In SICL, it looks like this: (defclass standard-class (...) ((x ...) (y ...))) 2015-10-24T06:42:27Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:43:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:46:14Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:51:42Z sw2wolf left #lisp 2015-10-24T06:51:50Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:52:14Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T06:52:47Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:52:53Z sw2wolf joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:54:03Z froggey joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:54:51Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T06:56:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T12:02:06Z phoe_krk_: holycow 2015-10-24T12:02:14Z phoe_krk_: I was looking for PCL on our Polish version of eBay 2015-10-24T12:02:18Z phoe_krk_: and there it is 2015-10-24T12:02:26Z phoe_krk_: $97.80 + shipping 2015-10-24T12:02:58Z phoe_krk_: I think I'll make a PDF out of the web version and print it myself. ;___; 2015-10-24T12:03:09Z Xach: library? 2015-10-24T12:03:46Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-24T12:05:06Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:05:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:07:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:08:58Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:09:08Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T12:09:11Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T12:09:47Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:09:50Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T12:11:26Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:11:32Z leafybas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T12:11:46Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:15:50Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-24T12:20:39Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T12:26:16Z hydan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T13:48:12Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-24T13:49:44Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T13:49:57Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T13:51:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T13:52:23Z dytrivedi quit (Quit: dytrivedi) 2015-10-24T13:55:26Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-24T13:55:26Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-24T13:55:26Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-24T13:55:59Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-24T13:56:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-24T13:56:45Z araujo quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-24T13:59:15Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:02:08Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T14:03:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:06:02Z beach: I spent a few minutes trying to imagine what a good interactive debugger for Common Lisp would look like. Here is the result so far: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf 2015-10-24T14:07:48Z beach: I would input from #lisp participants on how such a thing would look. 2015-10-24T14:08:52Z beach: ... except the standard #lisp opinions, which I can do without, i.e., "pointless", "can't be done", "too much work", "nobody will use it", etc. 2015-10-24T14:09:09Z JuanDaugherty: is it that bad here? 2015-10-24T14:09:19Z beach: It can be. 2015-10-24T14:09:27Z JuanDaugherty: i was wondering how it related to debugging in slime 2015-10-24T14:10:35Z JuanDaugherty: so sldb isn't a real symbolic debbugger? 2015-10-24T14:11:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-24T14:11:32Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:11:32Z beach: Not the way I want it. I want the debugger to run in a thread and debug another thread. I want breakpoints per thread and not per code. 2015-10-24T14:12:15Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:12:33Z JuanDaugherty: i forgot how lisp, cl in particular puts the kibosh on the common symbolic debugger ops 2015-10-24T14:13:12Z JuanDaugherty: i paid 200 bucks to use one for a year that runs in eclipse (not lisp) 2015-10-24T14:13:31Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:13:49Z JuanDaugherty: imagine racket has 2015-10-24T14:14:25Z beach: I suppose. I don't know. 2015-10-24T14:14:27Z JuanDaugherty: http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/debugger.html 2015-10-24T14:15:06Z JuanDaugherty shopping 2015-10-24T14:15:22Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:17:23Z beach: I tend to work by first imagining what I want and only afterwards look at what already exists. This is to avoid limiting my imagination to what already exists. Sometimes it means duplicate work, sometimes I come up with stuff that is worse than what exists, but occasionally I come up with something better. 2015-10-24T14:19:08Z beach: This is how I came up with the SICL first-class global environments, the improved generic dispatch technique in SICL, etc. 2015-10-24T14:21:22Z nyef: beach: Will review in a bit. Still trying to figure out what's going on with this floating-point damage. 2015-10-24T14:21:26Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T14:22:56Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:24:23Z beach: Sure, no rush. 2015-10-24T14:25:13Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:25:30Z beach: nyef: Though, this is not so much for you. You are not what I consider an "application programmer". Instead, you typically want to debug the compiler and such, for which this current effort was not meant. 2015-10-24T14:25:59Z beach: nyef: You can still review it of course, but it would be best if you try to imagine yourself in the position of an application programmer. 2015-10-24T14:26:12Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:27:01Z Guest73889 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2015-10-24T14:27:13Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:27:31Z nyef: I occasionally AM an application programmer, though. 2015-10-24T14:27:31Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:27:47Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:27:52Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-24T14:28:05Z beach: Oh, OK, good. Then put on that hat when you read it. 2015-10-24T14:28:09Z nyef: And I find the state-of-the-art for SBCL debugging to be deplorable. 2015-10-24T14:28:15Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:28:52Z beach: I see what you mean, but I try to avoid complaining about the hard work of other people who, in addition, give the result of their effort away for free. 2015-10-24T14:29:50Z hazz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:30:00Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:30:31Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:30:50Z beach: Sometimes, SBCL and the SLIME "debugger" feel like it must feel to wear a straitjacket. It even makes me long for the days when I programmed in C using GDB. 2015-10-24T14:31:03Z beach will now stop complaining. 2015-10-24T14:32:05Z WizJin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T14:32:14Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:35:29Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:36:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:37:26Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:37:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:37:45Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:38:12Z lmohseni quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:39:37Z beach: In my defense, I *am* trying to improve things. 2015-10-24T14:40:04Z blubjr: good morning beach 2015-10-24T14:40:12Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:45:06Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:45:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:46:05Z shka: beach: hi 2015-10-24T14:46:32Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:49:10Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T14:49:18Z mac_ified quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:49:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:50:26Z shka: i have silly question 2015-10-24T14:50:40Z shka: how to properly manager dependencies with quicklisp? 2015-10-24T14:51:03Z shka: up to now i was simply adding ql:quickload in the asd file 2015-10-24T14:51:24Z shka: but i want to live honest life without cheats ;-) 2015-10-24T14:52:44Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T14:53:07Z beach: Doesn't Xach do that for you? 2015-10-24T14:53:37Z XachX: shka: put the systems in your depends-on list 2015-10-24T14:55:48Z Aiwass quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-10-24T14:58:06Z nyef: beach: In my case, I know that it sucks, in some cases I know how and why it sucks, but there's a lot of other stuff on my list to fix *first*. 2015-10-24T14:58:41Z beach: I can definitely see that. 2015-10-24T14:58:54Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:02:38Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:05:25Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:09:53Z askatasu1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:12:26Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:12:50Z shookees quit (Quit: TATA AND FAREWELL) 2015-10-24T15:13:28Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:14:41Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T15:15:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T15:15:46Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T15:15:46Z loke_` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T15:16:22Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T15:16:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:17:48Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-24T15:18:37Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:22:33Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-24T15:23:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:29:12Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-24T15:29:33Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T15:30:41Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:30:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:30:54Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-10-24T15:31:27Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-24T16:02:59Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T16:04:10Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T16:04:44Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T16:06:47Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T16:07:19Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T16:07:20Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T16:07:31Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T17:42:25Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-24T17:43:03Z keen______ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T17:44:22Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: First-- are you using brew or ports on your OS X? 2015-10-24T17:54:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T17:55:15Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-24T17:55:47Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T17:57:42Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T17:58:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: brew 2015-10-24T17:58:22Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: How did you install smoke? Through brew, or did you let qt-libs do the compilation? 2015-10-24T17:58:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I compiled it myself 2015-10-24T17:58:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: brew doesn't have it 2015-10-24T17:58:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T17:59:16Z Shinmera: Hrm. 2015-10-24T17:59:37Z Shinmera: Can you try letting qt-libs compile it by itself? 2015-10-24T17:59:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, one second 2015-10-24T18:00:32Z Shinmera: I'm not too sure that that'll fix things, but it's one step closer to my setup. 2015-10-24T18:01:24Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T18:02:03Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:03:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:04:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I got an error 2015-10-24T18:04:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/936218ac4ac0b44477cb 2015-10-24T18:04:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think that's why I built smoke myself . . . 2015-10-24T18:06:59Z Shinmera: "error code 2" is unfortunately not very informative. 2015-10-24T18:07:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I just followed the "too much building steps" on a clean system and it seemed to work 2015-10-24T18:08:03Z Shinmera: Ok. 2015-10-24T18:08:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm willing to try to debug the build process, if you want me to 2015-10-24T18:08:40Z Shinmera: No, I don't have the time right now and remote debugging as an incredible pain for things like this. If anything I'd have to try and reproduce it first. 2015-10-24T18:09:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, thanks for all the help. 2015-10-24T18:09:08Z Shinmera: If the precompiled ones work, then that's great. 2015-10-24T18:09:50Z Shinmera: I've been thinking about making the download the default behaviour. 2015-10-24T18:10:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if anyone has this problem, I think the solution is to reinstall everything :) 2015-10-24T18:10:24Z Shinmera: Well that's not really a solution in my book. 2015-10-24T18:10:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2015-10-24T18:12:44Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T18:14:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Do you know about the status of Qt5 support? 2015-10-24T18:15:32Z Shinmera: That'll come with the rewrite of CommonQt. That'll happen whenever Clasp is finally ready and Stas is less busy. 2015-10-24T18:15:50Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:15:55Z Shinmera: Or at least I expect that that's when it'll come. 2015-10-24T18:16:06Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T18:17:44Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:17:44Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-24T18:17:44Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:19:18Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:20:42Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-24T18:22:56Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:27:55Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:29:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to get the main-window instance? 2015-10-24T18:29:13Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T18:29:19Z Shinmera: "get" it from where? 2015-10-24T18:29:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: From a slime repl 2015-10-24T18:29:36Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T18:30:00Z Shinmera: Not by default. What I usually do is something like `(defvar *main* NIL) (define-initializer (window setup) (setf *main* window))` 2015-10-24T18:30:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks 2015-10-24T18:30:24Z Shinmera: make sure to change `window` to your actual class name. 2015-10-24T18:36:54Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:37:38Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T18:38:26Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:40:59Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T18:42:11Z askatasu1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-24T18:42:29Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:50:08Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:55:29Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:55:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to create a lisp image that doesn't depend on the Qt dylibs? 2015-10-24T18:56:56Z Shinmera: What do you mean? 2015-10-24T18:57:01Z Shinmera: Statically link them? 2015-10-24T18:57:07Z prphp joined #lisp 2015-10-24T18:57:50Z Shinmera: Deploying isn't really a problem-- Qtools makes it rather easy by dumping a final binary into a folder together with the necessary dylibs so you can just zip that up. 2015-10-24T18:57:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically 2015-10-24T18:58:13Z Shinmera: There's very experimental support for static linking of libraries in the very latest SBCL. 2015-10-24T18:58:19Z Shinmera: No idea if it works at all on OS X though. 2015-10-24T18:58:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that's interesting. 2015-10-24T18:58:50Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T18:58:57Z scymtym__: Shinmera: it has been reverted for now since it cause build failures on MacOSX, Windows and x86-on-x86_64 Linux 2015-10-24T18:59:05Z scymtym__: s/cause/caused/ 2015-10-24T18:59:10Z Shinmera: scymtym__: I see. Thanks for the update! 2015-10-24T18:59:51Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:00:21Z mishoo_ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2015-10-24T19:00:33Z wanderfool joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:00:49Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T19:01:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:01:42Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:02:03Z clique joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:03:50Z prphp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T19:04:01Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Also, be aware that if you statically linked the open source version of Qt you would have to open source your application too. 2015-10-24T19:04:45Z tippenein joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:05:55Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T19:07:08Z wanderfool quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T19:07:12Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:08:03Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-24T19:08:35Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:11:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-24T19:11:39Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:12:04Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:15:36Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-24T19:19:17Z ajf-: how was it to group a list into n sublists ? 2015-10-24T19:19:35Z ajf-: (loop while collect n ... 2015-10-24T19:21:05Z clique left #lisp 2015-10-24T19:23:28Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T19:24:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:26:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-24T19:26:32Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:26:32Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2015-10-24T19:26:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-24T19:26:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:27:39Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-24T19:28:21Z whiteline_: (loop for n in '((1 2) (2 3)) collect (car n) into x collect (cadr n) into y finally (return (values x y))) 2015-10-24T19:28:47Z whiteline_: ? 2015-10-24T19:29:01Z Shinmera: ajf-: Just search the logs, jfc. 2015-10-24T19:29:08Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T19:29:15Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-24T19:29:19Z ajf-: ah you're right 2015-10-24T19:29:20Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-24T19:29:36Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm not sure how that side of things works... IF it works. 2015-10-24T20:41:04Z gendl: This is documented to work on most CLs except Allegro and LW, 2015-10-24T20:41:06Z nyef: I know that most if not all SBCL contribs are ASDF-based. 2015-10-24T20:41:08Z gendl: i'm trying to do it on Allegro now. 2015-10-24T20:41:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:41:39Z gendl: I'm looking at the asdf source code and I can't see the magic of how it's calling on to (require ...) on the purportedly supported implementations. 2015-10-24T20:41:57Z gendl: so i can't see how to extend it for Allegro (and LW) 2015-10-24T20:42:00Z nyef: One side is SBCL's *module-provider-hooks* thing, and the equivalent on other lisps, but I don't know about the other way. 2015-10-24T20:43:25Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T20:44:06Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T20:44:48Z p8m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-24T20:45:38Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:49:56Z cell joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:50:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I'm generally pretty indifferent about questions of licensing these days. 2015-10-24T20:53:02Z ralt joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:53:23Z ralt: hi 2015-10-24T20:53:46Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-24T20:54:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:56:47Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T20:58:29Z jlarocco_ left #lisp 2015-10-24T20:58:34Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T20:59:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:02:42Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T21:04:38Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:05:42Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:05:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:08:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T21:09:06Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:10:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:10:23Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:10:25Z ralt: hm 2015-10-24T21:10:35Z ralt: is there a way to define an asdf load-tree in lisp? 2015-10-24T21:11:02Z ralt: I want to have a custom asdf tree at runtime, and load packages in it 2015-10-24T21:11:19Z ralt: looking at the list of asdf methods, I don't see what could help me 2015-10-24T21:11:31Z oleba joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:14:03Z duikboot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:20:04Z magneticduck joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:20:27Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:20:37Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T21:21:13Z magneticduck quit (Quit: bepbep) 2015-10-24T21:21:29Z Whitesquall quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:22:16Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-24T21:22:41Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-24T21:23:03Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:26:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:26:45Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-24T21:27:15Z duikboot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:27:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:27:59Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:31:11Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T21:36:49Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:38:42Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-24T21:38:43Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:38:50Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:38:52Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T21:41:05Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T21:41:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:42:56Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:44:06Z Jameser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T21:49:28Z bumblebeep joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:50:00Z bumblebeep left #lisp 2015-10-24T21:51:30Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:51:33Z randommelon quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-24T21:51:43Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:51:58Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:52:39Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-24T21:53:55Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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((let (abc 1)) (sub -3 abc)) .. are you basically saying, abc = 1, abc = -3 - 1? 2015-10-24T23:02:51Z axion: cagmz_: that depends on what #'sub is 2015-10-24T23:03:18Z cagmz_: subtract, axion? 2015-10-24T23:03:34Z axion: do you mean #'- ? 2015-10-24T23:04:47Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:05:27Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-24T23:05:52Z phoe_krk_: I fucked up with classes and defgenerics. 2015-10-24T23:06:07Z phoe_krk_: argument lists to generics/methods to be precise. 2015-10-24T23:06:14Z cagmz_: hmm. well let me start over. I'm writing a lisp-like language where the grammar is s_expr ::= ( ( let let_list ) s_expr ) . But I've never used lisp before so I'm confused as to what "let" does 2015-10-24T23:06:19Z phoe_krk_: now I can't recompile either because they have different specializations. 2015-10-24T23:06:22Z phoe_krk_: how do I clean up the mess? 2015-10-24T23:07:36Z axion: cagmz_: it defines a lexical binding 2015-10-24T23:08:34Z cagmz_: right, but what is it binding to exactly? does .. ( ( let let_list ) s_expr ) define variables, and then evaluate to whatever the s_expr results in? 2015-10-24T23:08:37Z scymtym: phoe_krk_: (fmakunbound 'NAME-OF-GENERIC-FUNCTION) 2015-10-24T23:09:10Z phoe_krk_: scymtym__: oh, this one works here. thanks. 2015-10-24T23:09:20Z axion: cagmz_: (defparameter abc 2) (list abc (let ((abc 2)) (+ abc 1)) abc) evalutates to (2 3 2) 2015-10-24T23:09:24Z blubjr: its (let bindings &body body), the variables are bound during body 2015-10-24T23:09:46Z axion: cagmz_: so within a let form, the variable is "set" for that duration only 2015-10-24T23:10:30Z cagmz_: right. I'm writing a parser for a lisp-like lang using bison and yacc. Would a stack be a good choice to keep track of scope? 2015-10-24T23:10:45Z blubjr: you can re-write lets as function calls. (let ((a 1)) (1+ 1)) is the same thing as ((lambda (a) (1+ a)) 1) 2015-10-24T23:10:53Z blubjr: er 1+ a 2015-10-24T23:11:07Z cagmz_: I was thinking of creating a linked list with all the vars in a scope linked, then once we entered a new scope, pushing the old scope into the stack (symbol table) 2015-10-24T23:16:02Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:25:46Z XachX: cagmz_: there's a really good book on the topic called lisp in small pieces. 2015-10-24T23:26:17Z White_Flame: the viewing of a LET clause's equivalence in LAMBDA also shows why the values are evaluated in parallel, before they're bound to the new variables 2015-10-24T23:26:36Z cagmz_: thanks XachX 2015-10-24T23:26:57Z White_Flame: (let ((v expr1) (v2 expr2)) ...) -> ((lambda (v v2) ...) expr1 expr2) 2015-10-24T23:27:15Z White_Flame: shows that v and v2 don't exist yet while the expressions are being evaluated 2015-10-24T23:27:54Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:28:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:29:16Z phoe_krk_: what is a way to avoid declaring a function before using it? defclass yells at me for having a #'myfunc call before (defun myfunc ...) in my .lisp file. 2015-10-24T23:29:37Z phoe_krk_: and I don't want to put the defun before defclass. 2015-10-24T23:30:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: well, that's just a warning, so you could just ignore it 2015-10-24T23:30:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: (hmm, maybe not) 2015-10-24T23:31:39Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: actually not. When I try to ql:quickload my project, I end up with: 2015-10-24T23:31:40Z phoe_krk_: The function FURCLISP::WORKER-FUNCTION is undefined. [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] 2015-10-24T23:31:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is this in the :initform ? 2015-10-24T23:32:07Z phoe_krk_: yes. 2015-10-24T23:32:20Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-24T23:32:28Z phoe_krk_: of a slot that has a class allocation. 2015-10-24T23:32:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm 2015-10-24T23:33:18Z phoe_krk_: I could hack around by it by replacing the :initform with a nil, and adding that later 2015-10-24T23:33:20Z phoe_krk_: I mean 2015-10-24T23:33:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could make it something like (lambda () (setf (my-slot self #'myfunc)) 2015-10-24T23:33:22Z phoe_krk_: the full line is 2015-10-24T23:33:34Z phoe_krk_: :initform (bt:make-thread #'worker-function :name "worker") 2015-10-24T23:33:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then at the end of the file call the method? 2015-10-24T23:33:54Z phoe_krk_: it's not really elegant, but I'll do that. 2015-10-24T23:33:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: that is, call the lambda? 2015-10-24T23:34:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: that is (lambda () (setf (my-slot self) #'myfunc)) 2015-10-24T23:34:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I'm not exactly sure how to get self, though: CLOS might not provide it?) 2015-10-24T23:36:35Z phoe_krk_: UGH. this *is* ugly. 2015-10-24T23:36:41Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:36:42Z phoe_krk_: I cannot do it in initialize-instance either. 2015-10-24T23:37:18Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:37:25Z White_Flame: how are you loading the file? 2015-10-24T23:37:28Z phoe_krk_: I need Lisp to stop yelling at me for trying to use a function that is defined later on. 2015-10-24T23:37:37Z phoe_krk_: (ql:quickload :myproj) 2015-10-24T23:37:54Z White_Flame: huh, I thought quickload muffled everything by default anyway 2015-10-24T23:38:29Z cagmz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T23:38:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: that's an error, not a warning, right? 2015-10-24T23:38:40Z White_Flame: it's also very implementation dependent if it whines or not 2015-10-24T23:38:45Z phoe_krk_: [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] 2015-10-24T23:39:08Z phoe_krk_: It doesn't allow me to load the fasl. 2015-10-24T23:39:18Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-24T23:39:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is works in the REPL: (defclass test () ((tmp :initform #'undef))) 2015-10-24T23:39:25Z White_Flame: which lisp implementation are you using? 2015-10-24T23:39:34Z phoe_krk_: White_Flame: latest SBCL 2015-10-24T23:39:39Z White_Flame: huh 2015-10-24T23:39:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: oops, I forgot to specify class allocation 2015-10-24T23:40:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: that does give the warning, I guess because the class allocates the slot immediately 2015-10-24T23:40:21Z phoe_krk_: *immediately* 2015-10-24T23:40:28Z phoe_krk_: and not upon creating the first instance? 2015-10-24T23:40:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really know, but the behavior suggests that 2015-10-24T23:40:54Z phoe_krk_: humm. 2015-10-24T23:40:58Z phoe_krk_: I'll change that, then. 2015-10-24T23:41:05Z phoe_krk_: since that's not what I want. 2015-10-24T23:41:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really know, but the behavior suggests that. 2015-10-24T23:41:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: (oops, repeating myself) 2015-10-24T23:41:31Z phoe_krk_: this stops being elegant. ;____; 2015-10-24T23:41:34Z phoe_krk_: and sucks. 2015-10-24T23:41:38Z White_Flame: wait, if it's defined as class allocation, then it's going to instantiate that when the class is defined, regardless of instances 2015-10-24T23:41:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's probably a MOP way to delay initialization :) 2015-10-24T23:41:54Z phoe_krk_: MOP? 2015-10-24T23:42:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Meta-object protocol 2015-10-24T23:42:12Z phoe_krk_: White_Flame: why is it silly enough not to notice that the class is defined *below in the code*? 2015-10-24T23:42:32Z White_Flame: I don't know, I've not had a problem with that, but I've also never bothered with class allocation 2015-10-24T23:42:41Z White_Flame: when the toplevel form is evaluated, it wants to run that allocator 2015-10-24T23:43:02Z White_Flame: and defun does not require compile-time registration of the function 2015-10-24T23:43:33Z phoe_krk_: White_Flame: I moved the defun above defclass. everything works. 2015-10-24T23:43:36Z phoe_krk_: this sucks. 2015-10-24T23:43:45Z White_Flame: whenever I get ordering issues, I tend to split code into multiple files to be explicit about it and avoid circularity 2015-10-24T23:43:57Z White_Flame: right, you have a specific toplevel runtime requirement 2015-10-24T23:44:03Z White_Flame: not a compile-time requirement 2015-10-24T23:44:29Z White_Flame: this is also why I wish that lisp toplevel forms were declarative, not specifically imperative mutators of the lisp image 2015-10-24T23:44:54Z White_Flame: s/forms/definition forms/ 2015-10-24T23:46:08Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:47:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: One problem is that #' references the function by value, not by place. 2015-10-24T23:47:28Z White_Flame: the real problem is that it isn't just referenced, but evaluated during the defclass 2015-10-24T23:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could just store a symbol there and then, whenever you use it, use it via (function (slot-value 'slot-name instance)), or whatever 2015-10-24T23:48:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: (forgot order of slot-value arguments) 2015-10-24T23:48:19Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: tell me more, I think I need a silly example to get that 2015-10-24T23:48:41Z White_Flame: or you could not use a class allocated slot, and just use a regular toplevel variable 2015-10-24T23:48:55Z phoe_krk_: ....... 2015-10-24T23:49:00Z phoe_krk_: is this that simple 2015-10-24T23:49:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: #'x means "the function that corresponds to symbol x right now" 2015-10-24T23:49:05Z phoe_krk_: replacing #'worker with 'worker 2015-10-24T23:49:11Z White_Flame: with an explicit (initialize-threading) to avoid loadtime/runtime problems 2015-10-24T23:49:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, redefining x won't update the binding 2015-10-24T23:49:24Z ryankarason quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-24T23:49:42Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: again, this is being _evaluated_ at the toplevel 2015-10-24T23:49:55Z White_Flame: so if the funciton isn't there yet, it'll still die 2015-10-24T23:50:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, if the slot accessor was defined as (defmethod my-slot ((self my-class)) (function (slot-value 'my-slot self))) 2015-10-24T23:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: The symbol would be "de-referenced" at run-time, rather than load/compile time 2015-10-24T23:50:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:50:44Z White_Flame: it's the :initform that's the problem 2015-10-24T23:50:49Z White_Flame: of a _class allocated_ slot 2015-10-24T23:51:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then the :initform would just be the symbol you want dereferenced 2015-10-24T23:51:20Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:51:32Z White_Flame: when defclass is evaluated, it tries to launch the worker thread 2015-10-24T23:51:38Z White_Flame: but then that wouldn't evaluate! 2015-10-24T23:51:54Z White_Flame: because the function behind the symbol still doesn't exist yet 2015-10-24T23:52:14Z White_Flame: phoe_krk_: the real answer is not to auto-initialize, because you're doing class allocation 2015-10-24T23:52:32Z White_Flame: make a specific initializer that you can call once everything is loaded up 2015-10-24T23:53:05Z White_Flame: either that, or ensure that everything is there before the defclass is hit, because the defclass is calling your code instead of just defining references to it 2015-10-24T23:53:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: but it might be good enough, if he doesn't really care when the thread starts. 2015-10-24T23:53:22Z White_Flame: but that's always a time bomb 2015-10-24T23:53:41Z White_Flame: especially if it's in the same file; file-to-file dependencies are much more explicit and easier to manage 2015-10-24T23:54:32Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:56:09Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2015-10-24T23:57:58Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:57:58Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-24T23:58:02Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:01:16Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:02:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:03:29Z revolve joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:03:33Z phoe_krk_: Dear Diary, 2015-10-25T00:03:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DGI 2015-10-25T00:03:46Z phoe_krk_: today I learned that there is a great difference between (defvar myvar) and (defvar myvar nil). 2015-10-25T00:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: This might do something like what you want 2015-10-25T00:04:08Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks! 2015-10-25T00:04:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs defvar 2015-10-25T00:04:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2015-10-25T00:04:42Z White_Flame: yep, the fact that LET without a binding value defaults to nil, while defvar without a value remains unbound is a bit confusing 2015-10-25T00:06:38Z phoe_krk_: so, uh 2015-10-25T00:07:20Z phoe_krk_: what's the difference between defvar and defparameter in this case? using both of them on unbound variables seems similar right now; you can't call defparameter without a value, and calling defvar without a value does nothing. 2015-10-25T00:07:20Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, I don't think that's the same thing 2015-10-25T00:07:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T00:07:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: it depends what you need 2015-10-25T00:07:42Z White_Flame: defparameter avoids undefined variable references. It declares it as a variable 2015-10-25T00:07:58Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: basically, you're creating a specific initializer function, while still keeping things weirdly bound to the class 2015-10-25T00:08:10Z White_Flame: whereas the original example was self-initializing on defclass 2015-10-25T00:09:10Z White_Flame: phoe_krk_: whoops, I mean defvar, specifically. defparameter requires a value 2015-10-25T00:09:28Z phoe_krk_: White_Flame: and calling defvar without a value does nothing. 2015-10-25T00:09:32Z White_Flame: but both, if successfuly executed, will avoid warnings when defining functions like (defun x () *var*) 2015-10-25T00:09:36Z White_Flame: it does 2015-10-25T00:09:49Z phoe_krk_: well, I can't see it. still unbound. 2015-10-25T00:10:01Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T00:10:06Z White_Flame: type in (defun x () *foo*). You'll get a warning. Then do (defvar *foo*), and run the defun again. You won't get a warning, because the image is now aware that *foo* is a variable 2015-10-25T00:10:17Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:10:42Z White_Flame: it has a (effectively) compile-time effect of declaring that variable to exist 2015-10-25T00:10:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't the "point" of defvar just to indicate that a certain variable is special and not lexically scoped? 2015-10-25T00:10:58Z White_Flame: right, when it has no initialized value 2015-10-25T00:11:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: It can also initialize the variable, but that's secondary 2015-10-25T00:11:22Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:13:05Z blubjr: phoe_krk_: at the bottom of the hyperspec page they show an example definition of defvar if that would help you 2015-10-25T00:13:57Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:14:05Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-25T00:14:21Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-25T00:14:21Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:15:05Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T00:15:24Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T00:15:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there an e-version of AMOP somewhere? 2015-10-25T00:15:53Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T00:16:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't mind paying for it, I'd just rather have it digitally 2015-10-25T00:16:27Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-25T00:16:49Z gabriel_laddel: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know about paying for it, but libgen had a copy at one point. 2015-10-25T00:30:08Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Some amount of it is freely available, but I'm not sure about the full text. 2015-10-25T00:31:12Z nyef: ... 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-25T02:25:29Z emaczen`: given a function, can you recover the code? 2015-10-25T02:26:20Z Bike: not standardly 2015-10-25T02:26:41Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:27:21Z Bike: implementation doesn't have to keep it around 2015-10-25T02:27:26Z emaczen`: What about SBCL? 2015-10-25T02:28:02Z vermiculus joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:28:09Z Bike: nope 2015-10-25T02:28:54Z vermiculus: hi folks :) I've been asking around, but didn't think to ask here: does anyone have resources they'd recommend for someone writing a lisp dialect? 2015-10-25T02:31:36Z nyef: emaczen`: With SBCL? Depends on how good you are at inferring source from disassembly. 2015-10-25T02:32:08Z emaczen`: nyef: I'll forgo this capability -- it's not that important but just would have been helpful to make sure what is actually going on with a compiled function 2015-10-25T02:32:39Z nyef: emaczen`: DISASSEMBLE might help with that. Also, experience. 2015-10-25T02:33:01Z nyef: vermiculus: Most useful resource: A brick wall, for banging your head against. 2015-10-25T02:33:36Z vermiculus: nyef: oh, it's not so bad. After a while you lose sensation in your forehead so you don't even feel it. 2015-10-25T02:34:02Z White_Flame: maybe Lisp In Small Pieces? 2015-10-25T02:34:11Z White_Flame: (haven't read it, but people recommend it for that purpose) 2015-10-25T02:35:03Z vermiculus: White_Flame: 95 bucks on amazon... holy cow! I'll read some reviews, thanks :) 2015-10-25T02:35:14Z vermiculus: It would be a good use of my PD fund 2015-10-25T02:35:16Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:37:47Z nyef: Why do you want to write a lisp dialect, anyway? 2015-10-25T02:38:17Z emaczen`: Is symbol-macrolet supposed to expand symbols to their expansions when it sees the symbol in it's body? Is there any more to ti? How would (symbol-macrolet ((a `(expand ,a))) a) get expanded? 2015-10-25T02:38:48Z nyef: emaczen`: That... looks viciously recursive to me. 2015-10-25T02:39:00Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T02:39:17Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-25T02:39:20Z nyef: emaczen`: Although... it might just trigger an undefined-variable error. 2015-10-25T02:39:30Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:39:51Z nyef: vermiculus: Depending on your goals, a copy of the LISP 1.5 manual might be sufficient. 2015-10-25T02:39:56Z vermiculus: nyef: I work for a company that uses Mumps (we call it M). The database structure is actually gorgeous -- it's all trees -- but the interface language leaves something to be desired. It's not *bad*, but it's not *great* either. Noticing the similarity between Mumps' database architecture and Lisp's program- and data-structure, I decided it would be a good thing to do. 2015-10-25T02:40:04Z emaczen`: nyef: My problem is that the method I usually resort to solving this problem isn't working because I need to generate my let bindings. 2015-10-25T02:40:24Z trinitr0n: /win 18 2015-10-25T02:40:25Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:41:19Z vermiculus: nyef: There's a fundamentally different data structure and other C API considerations, so I don't think I can just extend CL. 2015-10-25T02:41:47Z nyef: vermiculus: Hrm... You might see if one of the Scheme implementations could do what you need. 2015-10-25T02:41:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I pass a String[] argument in ABCL? 2015-10-25T02:41:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are lists/vectors auto-converted? 2015-10-25T02:42:18Z nyef: emaczen`: what on earth are you actually trying to do? 2015-10-25T02:42:24Z vermiculus: nyef: I've been looking into Chicken Scheme recently, but I'm still not sure how I'd implement reader macros. 2015-10-25T02:42:58Z White_Flame: emaczen`: maybe check out progv 2015-10-25T02:43:27Z White_Flame: dynamic instead of lexical, but you specify the symbol to bind as a value 2015-10-25T02:43:28Z emaczen`: nyef: I have a body argument that has symbols that I want to expand, hence I should be able to wrap this in some kind of let binding right? 2015-10-25T02:43:43Z nyef: vermiculus: The problem is that anything you write yourself is going to require a lot of work to make fast, reliable, sort out the edge cases, and so on. Far, far better to leverage an existing implementation if you can. 2015-10-25T02:44:06Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T02:44:13Z nyef: vermiculus: Just ask drmeister about what happened to him, when he started down the make-it-yourself path! 2015-10-25T02:44:15Z White_Flame: vermiculus: sounds like you just want to write a DSL that interfaces with your system? 2015-10-25T02:44:23Z vermiculus: nyef: Of course :) Rest easy that I'm still in the language design phase. 2015-10-25T02:44:37Z vermiculus: White_Flame: That would be an accurate description of what I'm trying to do 2015-10-25T02:44:54Z vermiculus: drmeister: Story time? :) 2015-10-25T02:45:04Z nyef: emaczen`: An example? 2015-10-25T02:46:10Z vermiculus: Hmm... I guess an FFI would be sufficient 2015-10-25T02:46:12Z White_Flame: vermiculus: if the language isn't interactive (don't know that much about MUMPS), then compiling your language to M source code should suffice, right? 2015-10-25T02:47:06Z vermiculus: White_Flame: I've considered that, but transcompiling feels like an awful lot of work. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to go onto grad school and learn about this stuff as I would've liked to :) 2015-10-25T02:47:14Z emaczen`: My macro takes a list and a body argument, the list contains the symbols that need to be expanded. My macro ends with ,@body so I think all I need to do is wrap it in some kind of let form that will expand the symbols. 2015-10-25T02:47:24Z White_Flame: vermiculus: it's the easiest way to get some of this type of stuff running 2015-10-25T02:47:34Z vermiculus: White_Flame: The language is interactive in a similar way that Python is 2015-10-25T02:47:43Z White_Flame: vermiculus: because then you don't actually have to worry about _executing_ anything 2015-10-25T02:47:46Z White_Flame: ah 2015-10-25T02:48:42Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:48:50Z vermiculus: White_Flame: I'm just not sure how some language features of Lisp would work in Mumps -- M supports indirection (i.e., taking a string and executing it as code), but I don't see how well that translates to higher-order functions 2015-10-25T02:49:10Z vermiculus: White_Flame: It's definitely something to consider/research, for sure 2015-10-25T02:49:50Z White_Flame: eval 2015-10-25T02:50:21Z White_Flame: however, if you're unsure as to if you have the skills to translate one high level langauge to another, I don't know how you're going to tackle design a new language & creating its implementation... 2015-10-25T02:50:53Z White_Flame: if all of this is new, doing lang->lang conversion would likely be the easiest place to start 2015-10-25T02:53:17Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T02:54:03Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T02:54:42Z vermiculus: White_Flame: I've done the language design thing on a smaller scale before -- but this is definitely magnitudes more ambitious 2015-10-25T02:55:24Z vermiculus: (design+implementation) 2015-10-25T02:55:47Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T02:56:47Z vermiculus: Luckily the database interface on the C end lends itself really, really well to a lisp. I'll definitely work on a straight transcompiler as a first prototype, though :) 2015-10-25T02:56:52Z vermiculus: Thanks for the books! 2015-10-25T02:57:09Z White_Flame: yeah, ffi is its whole ball of wax, too 2015-10-25T02:57:12Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-25T02:57:33Z vermiculus: White_Flame: Chicken makes it seem pretty alright. 2015-10-25T02:57:37Z White_Flame: but if you're gonig to be interfacing to it from the outside, there's no real reason to implement the execution of the language; just macro it out in Lisp 2015-10-25T02:57:55Z White_Flame: you don't need to worry about the low level execution bits then 2015-10-25T02:57:58Z vermiculus: Though considering that language compiles down to C, that's probably not saying much 2015-10-25T02:58:25Z vermiculus: How would I macro it out in Lisp only? Wouldn't that just produce more Lisp code? 2015-10-25T02:58:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it at all possible to use something like CFFI and a standard lisp? 2015-10-25T02:58:35Z White_Flame: and that lisp code would execute your semantics 2015-10-25T02:58:41Z White_Flame: yes 2015-10-25T02:59:03Z vermiculus: fiddlerwoaroof: I org-capture'd that thought and will be coming back to it ;) 2015-10-25T02:59:05Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T02:59:07Z emaczen`: maybe this makes more sense: If I have (symbol-macrolet ((a (expansion ...))) a) shouldn't this replace a in the body with (expansion ...) ? 2015-10-25T02:59:26Z emaczen`: Do I have to do anything else? 2015-10-25T02:59:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: vermiculus: are you running this on standard x86 hardware, or something more interesting? 2015-10-25T02:59:56Z vermiculus: fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I know, AIX Unix is the only guarantee 2015-10-25T03:00:02Z vermiculus: White_Flame: 'execute my semantics'? 2015-10-25T03:00:29Z vermiculus: White_Flame: (I feel dumb for asking that, don't worry...) 2015-10-25T03:00:43Z White_Flame: give me an example language statement that you'd think would go in 2015-10-25T03:00:51Z White_Flame: from your DSL 2015-10-25T03:00:59Z vermiculus: alright 2015-10-25T03:01:56Z vermiculus: (set! (^Global "sub1" "sub2" 3 4) %{"root-val" 1 "mapped to 1" 2 "mapped to 2"}) 2015-10-25T03:02:05Z vermiculus: This would be equivalent too... 2015-10-25T03:02:25Z vermiculus: set ^Global("sub1","sub2",3,4)="root-val" 2015-10-25T03:02:36Z vermiculus: set ^Global("sub1","sub2",3,4,1)="mapped to 1" 2015-10-25T03:02:44Z vermiculus: set ^Global("sub1","sub2",3,4,2)="mapped to 2" 2015-10-25T03:02:53Z White_Flame: right, so that would translate into (setf var1 val1 var2 val2 ...) 2015-10-25T03:03:31Z vermiculus: You could make that parallel 2015-10-25T03:03:35Z White_Flame: (defmacro set! (vars vals) `(setf ,@..zip the 2 lists toghether...)) 2015-10-25T03:03:53Z White_Flame: and that translates your input to the output 2015-10-25T03:03:57Z White_Flame: and then executes the setf 2015-10-25T03:04:00Z vermiculus: Yes, that gets me to lisp 2015-10-25T03:04:05Z White_Flame: so you don't have to create setf, variable storage, etc. It just runs 2015-10-25T03:04:15Z vermiculus: Correct 2015-10-25T03:04:37Z White_Flame: now, instead of translating to setf, you could translate to a list of (cffi-set-variables-in-mumps ...) or something which would pass the values to store to m 2015-10-25T03:04:46Z vermiculus: Ahhh 2015-10-25T03:04:54Z vermiculus: Yes, using an FFI 2015-10-25T03:05:03Z vermiculus: or... 2015-10-25T03:05:04Z White_Flame: and again, you don't need to worry about how to set a variable. You either let lisp do it, or turn it into code that tells mumps how to do it 2015-10-25T03:05:19Z White_Flame: then you don't need to know all the low-level implementation specifics at all 2015-10-25T03:05:46Z vermiculus: hm. I see what you mean, at least when we're only talking about macros. 2015-10-25T03:06:04Z White_Flame: macros are functions that are given source code and return source code. They can do whatever 2015-10-25T03:06:19Z White_Flame: or, you can be a bit more in control and read in source code, and manually break it down 2015-10-25T03:06:22Z vermiculus: Compiling (cffi-set-variables-in-mumps .*) forms would be much simpler than the DSL 2015-10-25T03:06:27Z White_Flame: via READ and list operations 2015-10-25T03:06:47Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:06:58Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:07:05Z fiddlerwoaroof can't remember the name of LOOP's iteration counter 2015-10-25T03:07:30Z Bike: usually i just do "for i from 0" 2015-10-25T03:07:37Z vermiculus: and it looks like you can provide your own reader macros :) https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 2015-10-25T03:08:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: thanks 2015-10-25T03:08:10Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:10:01Z White_Flame: vermiculus: yes, you can change the character syntax to whatever you want, retaining however much of the default lisp syntax you care to 2015-10-25T03:10:26Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:10:56Z vermiculus: White_Flame: This will be fun :) Most of my Lisp experience has come from elisp (which certainly doesn't have these features) 2015-10-25T03:11:01Z vermiculus: Thanks for the pointers! 2015-10-25T03:12:07Z White_Flame: np 2015-10-25T03:13:06Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:15:24Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:17:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to declare a non-special variable at toplevel? 2015-10-25T03:17:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or does that make no sense? 2015-10-25T03:17:30Z Bike: not in the standard. 2015-10-25T03:17:31Z White_Flame: do you mean a lexical variable? 2015-10-25T03:17:50Z White_Flame: (let (...vars...) (defun ...) (defmacro ...) (toplevel-whatever ...)) 2015-10-25T03:18:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: yes, but I mean without a LET 2015-10-25T03:18:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be like DEFVAR without the implicit (declaim special) 2015-10-25T03:18:41Z White_Flame: lexical variables exist only within a lexical scope, so what sort of thing are you looking for? 2015-10-25T03:19:05Z White_Flame: why don't you want it to be special? 2015-10-25T03:19:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just wondering. 2015-10-25T03:19:34Z White_Flame: you could directly hit (symbol-value 'foo) 2015-10-25T03:20:02Z gabriel_laddel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T03:20:56Z White_Flame: hmm, but that also might require it being special first 2015-10-25T03:21:13Z Bike: it doesn't 2015-10-25T03:21:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, that works 2015-10-25T03:21:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 3) foo #| --> 3 |# (let ((foo 2)) (setf foo 5)) foo #| --> 3 |# 2015-10-25T03:22:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, I'm not sure if that shows what I think it did . . . 2015-10-25T03:22:22Z Bike: that last 'foo' is sorta undefined. 2015-10-25T03:22:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, it doesn't :) 2015-10-25T03:23:07Z White_Flame: hmm, I wonder why (setf (symbol-value 'a) 3) gives me "Cannot set SYMBOL-VALUE of A to 3, not of type FUNCTION." 2015-10-25T03:23:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: even when the first setf occurs before? 2015-10-25T03:23:37Z Bike: right, because setting the symbol value doesn't affect the specialness of the symbol at all. 2015-10-25T03:23:58Z Bike: White_Flame: sounds buggy, what implementation/etc.? 2015-10-25T03:24:02Z White_Flame: SBCL 2015-10-25T03:24:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, so the last foo could turn out to be 5 on some implementation? 2015-10-25T03:24:11Z Bike: version? it "works for me" 2015-10-25T03:24:17Z White_Flame: 1.2.4.28 2015-10-25T03:24:18Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: no, but it could throw an error 2015-10-25T03:24:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah 2015-10-25T03:24:24Z White_Flame: though I don't know what I've done before in this image 2015-10-25T03:24:36Z White_Flame: and it works for other symbols, just not A 2015-10-25T03:24:39Z Bike: you might wanna restart it to check. it works in sbcl 1.2.16, anyway 2015-10-25T03:24:47Z Bike: yeah, that's probably just some detritus in your image then 2015-10-25T03:24:59Z White_Flame: an awfully strange piece of detritus, though 2015-10-25T03:25:14Z Bike: yes 2015-10-25T03:25:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It works in CCL / ABCL as well 2015-10-25T03:25:45Z White_Flame: ah, I proclaimed A to be a function 2015-10-25T03:25:55Z White_Flame: so it's a typecheck on the value, not anythign to do with symbol-function 2015-10-25T03:25:58Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:26:21Z White_Flame: was messing around with forward declarations of functions before 2015-10-25T03:27:49Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-25T03:29:41Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:29:51Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:32:49Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:33:15Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:39:20Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:39:44Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-25T03:39:47Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:40:39Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-25T03:40:40Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:41:34Z vermiculus: Good night, everyone. 2015-10-25T03:42:05Z vermiculus quit (Quit: it's time to start working on this reader -- and that means turning off wifi) 2015-10-25T03:48:35Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:48:43Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-25T03:48:43Z minion: beach, memo from nyef: In section 1.1.4, paragraph 4, the description of volatile break points is incoherent. IIRC, some debuggers have step-into, step-over, and step-out (run until function returns) commands which match your described functionality with different terminology. Does your "Finish" button also catch non-local exits? Have you given any thought to condition-system interaction? 2015-10-25T03:48:43Z minion: beach, memo from nyef: And on my floating-point problem, a debian jessie chroot ran my C test program (same binary file) with expected results, so it's probably "just" the libc/libm on my host environment. 2015-10-25T03:49:23Z beach: Thanks nyef! 2015-10-25T03:49:29Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T03:50:57Z beach: Wow, it looks like I missed all the fun. At least two new Lisp dialects on the way, and plenty of compiler questions and MOP questions. 2015-10-25T03:51:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Dialects or implementations? 2015-10-25T03:51:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T03:51:53Z beach: Dialects, judging from the logs. 2015-10-25T03:54:47Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:55:27Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-25T03:55:33Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:57:01Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T03:58:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the easiest way to split a string at every occurrence of a character? 2015-10-25T03:58:36Z beach: SPLIT-SEQUENCE 2015-10-25T03:58:41Z beach: You can find it in Quicklisp. 2015-10-25T03:59:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks 2015-10-25T04:00:05Z beach: Anytime! 2015-10-25T04:00:11Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:01:31Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Were you the one asking for online MOP? 2015-10-25T04:01:33Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:01:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: yes, or some eform 2015-10-25T04:01:50Z beach: Here are the chapters that we can legally put online: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2015-10-25T04:02:01Z beach: Plus some extra material. 2015-10-25T04:02:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: thanks. 2015-10-25T04:03:13Z beach: Pleasure. Let me know if you have any improvements to suggest. There are a few broken links, but I am working on them. 2015-10-25T04:03:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any chance that the original will be released for Kindle or in ePub at some point? 2015-10-25T04:03:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. the whole?) 2015-10-25T04:03:36Z beach: You would have to ask the authors. 2015-10-25T04:03:41Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:04:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok, thanks for the link 2015-10-25T04:06:12Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:06:15Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T04:07:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: are/were you the maintainer of McClim? 2015-10-25T04:07:19Z beach: Yes. 2015-10-25T04:07:25Z beach: Not working too hard on it though. 2015-10-25T04:07:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was wondering a while ago how much work it would be to write a Qt backend? 2015-10-25T04:08:24Z beach: I don't know. I never wrote the code with integrating existing an existing toolkit in mind. 2015-10-25T04:08:33Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:08:40Z beach: I always used the native gadgets. 2015-10-25T04:09:37Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:10:38Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:10:46Z gabriel_laddel: beach: you'll be pleased to know I've switched almost entirely to climacs 2015-10-25T04:11:00Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Excellent! 2015-10-25T04:11:18Z gabriel_laddel: I've got to revert to emacs for rgrep and a few other things, but who calls, debugging all works inside of CLIM 2015-10-25T04:11:44Z beach: That's excellent news 2015-10-25T04:12:17Z gabriel_laddel: afaik nobody on earth has an apropos-thing-at-point autocomplete (to work around the package system), so am writing this now 2015-10-25T04:12:50Z beach: I'll be happy to review your code for integration into the main code base. 2015-10-25T04:13:24Z gabriel_laddel: beach: at some point this will happen 2015-10-25T04:13:34Z gabriel_laddel: currently I'm trying to get the whole clim experience to be self-hosting 2015-10-25T04:13:41Z gabriel_laddel: and then I'll integrate 2015-10-25T04:13:42Z beach: Yeah, I have gotten used to not being in a hurry. 2015-10-25T04:13:47Z gabriel_laddel: heh 2015-10-25T04:15:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a non-X backend for Mac? 2015-10-25T04:15:46Z beach: I don't think so. 2015-10-25T04:16:23Z gabriel_laddel: beach: who was in charge of the McCLIM site? 2015-10-25T04:17:28Z gabriel_laddel: I reviewed the archives and stuck the information into a .org file to rebuild it at some point, and would like to coordinate with the maintainer. 2015-10-25T04:18:05Z beach: Not sure I understand the question. I am in charge of the GitHub repository. 2015-10-25T04:18:20Z gabriel_laddel: beach: there used to be a McCLIM website, it is now offline. 2015-10-25T04:18:31Z beach: Oh. 2015-10-25T04:18:39Z beach: I don't know. :( 2015-10-25T04:18:53Z gabriel_laddel: kk 2015-10-25T04:19:15Z beach: Wasn't it just on Cliki? 2015-10-25T04:19:20Z gabriel_laddel: Is there a guide to how threading works in (find-package 'bt) somewhere? 2015-10-25T04:19:53Z gabriel_laddel: beach: it might have been... one sec, finding the document 2015-10-25T04:20:00Z Big_G quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T04:20:17Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T04:20:22Z gabriel_laddel: yeah, mcclim.cliki.net 2015-10-25T04:20:34Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/ 2015-10-25T04:21:26Z beach: Yes, I see. I don't know what was on that site or why it is no offline. 2015-10-25T04:21:36Z gabriel_laddel: the cliki site had instructions on how to get started using clbuild etc. 2015-10-25T04:22:04Z beach: If we can recover the contents, I can put it up on metamodular.com 2015-10-25T04:22:05Z gabriel_laddel: it also had a guide to "theming" which was nice 2015-10-25T04:22:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does the cairo backend work? 2015-10-25T04:22:34Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I've already done that. I'll be assembling them into a new site at some point. 2015-10-25T04:22:35Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It hasn't been used for a while, so might have bitrotted. 2015-10-25T04:22:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, there is now a Mac-native version of Cairo/Gtk 2015-10-25T04:22:51Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Great! Are you planning to host it then? 2015-10-25T04:23:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, at the moment, I get a memory error. 2015-10-25T04:23:25Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I don't mind hosting, I'm just not sure what the story is, r.e., who was in charge of the old site, and who is in charge of the common-lisp.net one. 2015-10-25T04:23:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, back to ABCL+java 2015-10-25T04:24:23Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I don't think anybody is in charge at this point, which is why I proclaimed myself as the maintainer. I think I can make decisions if you want some. 2015-10-25T04:24:49Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Works for me. 2015-10-25T04:25:34Z beach: gabriel_laddel: And, in case you haven't noticed, I am trying to re-create the McCLIM manual as it was when I wrote it, before someone made it impossible to build it by attempting to integrate docstrings from source code. 2015-10-25T04:26:15Z beach: The way I wrote that manual, it contains information that is skimpy in the spec, and it contains more pedagogical material than the spec. 2015-10-25T04:26:30Z beach: So it was supposed to be a real manual. Not docstrings. 2015-10-25T04:26:44Z gabriel_laddel: noted. 2015-10-25T04:27:27Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T04:27:59Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-25T04:30:03Z axion: ok, i've been away from lisp for a bit too long 2015-10-25T04:30:05Z gabriel_laddel: Anyways, the reason I'm looking for a guide for bordeaux-threads is because I need to understand how CLIM-SYS works. The CLIM desktop experience is wonderful until it freezes because of who knows what. 2015-10-25T04:30:10Z axion: how can i bind variables to the elements of a list? something like m-v-b but for a list instead of values? 2015-10-25T04:30:20Z gabriel_laddel: There are a few bugs outside of this, but none are show stopping 2015-10-25T04:30:30Z gabriel_laddel: axion: destructuring-bind 2015-10-25T04:30:35Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:30:44Z axion: thanks 2015-10-25T04:32:35Z gabriel_laddel: oh, while I'm here: I'm looking for "grey-goo pipe dreams" for mechanical program optimization. 2015-10-25T04:32:51Z gabriel_laddel: self-modifying datastructures and things of this nature. 2015-10-25T04:33:53Z beach: Can you explain a bit more? 2015-10-25T04:34:56Z gabriel_laddel: beach: sure. I'm looking for vauge ideas about how to optimize common lisp programs mechanically. 2015-10-25T04:35:18Z beach: "mechanically"? 2015-10-25T04:35:19Z gabriel_laddel: beach: for example, I'd like to to have a switch to record all the types that pass through all functions of a package, asdf system etc. 2015-10-25T04:35:57Z gabriel_laddel: then, if in usage I see that some functions are always passed things of a certain type, I can mechanically append the correct type declarations 2015-10-25T04:36:33Z beach: Ah, I am beginning to understand. No idea how to tackle that though. 2015-10-25T04:36:40Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yeah, me neither. 2015-10-25T04:36:57Z gabriel_laddel: the only other thing that comes to mind is "turn lists into hash tables" 2015-10-25T04:37:15Z gabriel_laddel: the obvious way to approach this problem is to optimize a program, write down what I do and formalize 2015-10-25T04:37:30Z gabriel_laddel: but if someone already walked down this path, I'd be more than happy to read about it 2015-10-25T04:37:49Z beach: I'll be sure to let you know if I find something. 2015-10-25T04:39:59Z hydan: gabriel_laddel: take a look at https://github.com/Bike/compiler-macro maybe that is something like what you are looking for 2015-10-25T04:43:28Z johann__ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:43:35Z gabriel_laddel: http://imgur.com/NK8gdQd 2015-10-25T04:43:39Z gabriel_laddel: all that clim, all that desktop 2015-10-25T04:44:31Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:45:50Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-25T04:45:54Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:50:14Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:52:36Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:53:14Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:54:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T04:54:54Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:57:26Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T04:58:53Z axion: i have a slight problem 2015-10-25T04:59:53Z axion: is it feasible to alter a 2d array with a smaller 2d array's values at a random index without keeping a copy? there can only be 2 values (0 or 1) and i want to ensure they do not overlap previously written 1's. 2015-10-25T05:02:07Z Bike: this question is hard to understand. 2015-10-25T05:02:18Z axion: it's hard to ask 2015-10-25T05:03:56Z axion: say i have a 100x100 array of all 0's, and i have a few smaller arrays of all 1's and i want to insert their values into the larger array at a random index, ensuring that they do not overlap a previous "1". what would be a good way to do this? 2015-10-25T05:05:58Z Bike: what do you mean "their values"? like, do you want to copy the small array in its entirety into the larger one? 2015-10-25T05:07:08Z axion: not the array, but just the integers into indices of the larger one at a random starting index 2015-10-25T05:07:19Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:07:49Z keen______ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:08:53Z keen______ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:09:12Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:10:34Z vermiculus joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:11:30Z beach: gabriel_laddel: That screen shot looks quite nice. 2015-10-25T05:11:36Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Congratulations! 2015-10-25T05:12:05Z axion: to put it simply, i'm generating a game map's rooms that will then be connected by corridors with pathfinding, so they must not overlap 2015-10-25T05:13:02Z beach: gabriel_laddel: You inspire me (you already did, but more now) to continue working on McCLIM, Climacs, Clouseau, etc. 2015-10-25T05:13:06Z Bike: i'd keep a separate record of what rooms have been inserted. 2015-10-25T05:13:33Z Bike: like, just a list, ((4 6 3 9) (80 12 23 4)), meaning there's a 3×9 room at 4×6, etc. 2015-10-25T05:14:43Z axion: hmm ok 2015-10-25T05:15:21Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I'm honored.. 2015-10-25T05:15:52Z gabriel_laddel: beach: IMHO, the only reason McCLIM and an all-list desktop isn't ruling the world right now is because there is no linux distro paired with it 2015-10-25T05:15:57Z gabriel_laddel: it takes too much work to setup 2015-10-25T05:16:18Z gabriel_laddel: one guy in here ran climacs the other day and he couldn't so much as use arrow keys. 2015-10-25T05:16:18Z beach: You might be right. 2015-10-25T05:16:29Z gabriel_laddel: my response was "well, it works for me" 2015-10-25T05:16:33Z beach: Oh, loke. Yes, I saw it. 2015-10-25T05:16:46Z beach: It has to do with keymaps and such. 2015-10-25T05:17:06Z gabriel_laddel: where I'm going with this is that you've probably already seen that I'm working on a distro, and it's far enough along that I use it everyday 2015-10-25T05:17:27Z beach: Yes, that great. 2015-10-25T05:17:31Z gabriel_laddel: anyways, next time I've the cash, I'll be buying enough machines to test the install on 2015-10-25T05:18:29Z gabriel_laddel: and the "integration" of what I'm working on will probably come in the form of a distro for a specific set of hardware that is guranteed to run a whole CLIM dekstop 2015-10-25T05:18:32Z beach: I wish more Lispers had your attitude, though. Instead of abandoning the entire thing when the arrow keys don't work, it would be better if they would put in a few hours of work to figure out why and fix it. 2015-10-25T05:19:02Z gabriel_laddel: currently, the hardware selected costs about $120 usd in total. 2015-10-25T05:19:24Z gabriel_laddel: beach: same. I wish that they'd stop integrating with the ALGOL world too 2015-10-25T05:19:33Z beach: Indeed. 2015-10-25T05:19:37Z gabriel_laddel: lisp has enough good things about it that we don't need to play nice with others 2015-10-25T05:19:50Z beach: There is SOO much time wasted on FFI problems here. 2015-10-25T05:20:36Z gabriel_laddel: and the result isn't even interesting 2015-10-25T05:21:03Z gabriel_laddel: With climacs I can work on things like "we see you changed this function name / arglist, so we've updated everything that called it" 2015-10-25T05:21:09Z gabriel_laddel: this is *unthinkable* in other languages. 2015-10-25T05:21:30Z ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: 120 usd? 2015-10-25T05:21:39Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: yeah 2015-10-25T05:21:49Z ben_vulpes looks forward to this partslist 2015-10-25T05:21:57Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T05:21:59Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: Dell precision M4400. 2015-10-25T05:22:11Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: I got one minus the hard drive for $80. 2015-10-25T05:22:24Z gabriel_laddel: It has reverse-engineered OpenGL drivers. 2015-10-25T05:22:45Z gabriel_laddel: I found 5 whole ones for something like 350. 2015-10-25T05:22:56Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Why is the hardware important, as opposed to the operating system? 2015-10-25T05:23:23Z gabriel_laddel: beach: because with linux you'll never know if audio will work, what drivers will fail etc etc 2015-10-25T05:23:35Z beach: I see. 2015-10-25T05:23:51Z beach: But you intend to run some OS underneath the CLIM desktop, right? 2015-10-25T05:23:52Z gabriel_laddel: beach: the only way to go is to perscribe an OS + hardware and then generalize from there when you can reliably build the whole thing 2015-10-25T05:24:07Z beach: I think I understand. 2015-10-25T05:24:09Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Yeah. Just a curated gentoo. 2015-10-25T05:24:34Z ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: how are your mirrors? :P 2015-10-25T05:24:53Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: nonexistant. 2015-10-25T05:24:57Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: sadly. 2015-10-25T05:25:02Z ben_vulpes: looks like we're all in for a world of hurt. 2015-10-25T05:25:07Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: being broke does have some downsides. 2015-10-25T05:25:15Z ben_vulpes: tell me about it. 2015-10-25T05:25:54Z gabriel_laddel: I'm setting up the first "mirror" sometime next week hopefully. 2015-10-25T05:26:10Z gabriel_laddel: (mirror == someone else running the exact same code as me on the exact same hardware) 2015-10-25T05:26:13Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-25T05:26:29Z gabriel_laddel: (with the code allowing us to both replicate the feat) 2015-10-25T05:26:41Z gabriel_laddel: I've got to prepare for an interview though, so it may have to wait 2 weeks. 2015-10-25T05:27:45Z ben_vulpes: gotta eat. 2015-10-25T05:29:05Z cmoneylulz quit 2015-10-25T05:29:34Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I can certainly afford to buy such a mirror if it will be of some help to you. 2015-10-25T05:29:36Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: how goes your business? 2015-10-25T05:30:30Z akkad hunts for the project that let you encrypt your lisp code inside a block that would eval at runtime pending a decrypt with the proper key 2015-10-25T05:31:19Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Hrm. Okay. I have an interview on Monday, and then another on the 3rd. Tuesday I'll spend some time hacking on portage + quicklisp and try to export you the entire build tree. 2015-10-25T05:31:32Z gabriel_laddel: I need to do this anyways, so there is no reason not to schedule it earlier. 2015-10-25T05:32:44Z beach: No rush. I am just saying that you just let me know when/if you need such a "mirror" and I'll go ahead and buy it. 2015-10-25T05:33:49Z gabriel_laddel: beach: well, there are two types of mirror. 1. Someone else running the *exact* same code and hardware as me. 2. Someone who has the bundled tarballs etc. 2015-10-25T05:33:57Z gabriel_laddel: beach: for #2 you don't have to buy hardware. 2015-10-25T05:34:01Z gabriel_laddel: for #1, you do. 2015-10-25T05:34:06Z beach: Right. 2015-10-25T05:34:18Z beach: I can do either or both. Just let me know. 2015-10-25T05:34:38Z gabriel_laddel: Toda. 2015-10-25T05:34:45Z gabriel_laddel: (thanks) 2015-10-25T05:35:06Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:35:40Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-25T05:36:10Z ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: well enough. working on ROI sims for capex. 2015-10-25T05:36:50Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Thanks again for the excellent work. It is much inspiring than the usual remark I hear from #lisp participants, such as "You should not recommend McCLIM to your friends" and similar. 2015-10-25T05:37:13Z ben_vulpes: cost of energy, inflation, labor, materials, siting of machines across global fab base given above and more 2015-10-25T05:38:12Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:39:09Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-25T05:39:13Z ben_vulpes: what's your next gig like, gabriel_laddel? 2015-10-25T05:40:47Z phoe_krk_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:41:43Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:43:39Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: hopefully a full time job writing CL code rather than a gig. 2015-10-25T05:43:50Z beach: Wow! Nice! 2015-10-25T05:43:52Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: I've two interviews lined up for this. 2015-10-25T05:45:11Z ben_vulpes: best of luck 2015-10-25T05:45:19Z tuxbrave_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:45:25Z ben_vulpes: your cl adventures make me regret my misspent youth 2015-10-25T05:45:52Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:46:01Z gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: what is a fab base? 2015-10-25T05:46:29Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:47:39Z tuxbrave__ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:48:10Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:48:31Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:50:11Z tuxbrave_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:50:45Z ben_vulpes: base of fabrication facilities 2015-10-25T05:50:56Z ben_vulpes: similar to "tax base" 2015-10-25T05:50:59Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T05:51:04Z gabriel_laddel: ah, k 2015-10-25T05:55:12Z zeroish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T05:55:37Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T05:57:28Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-25T05:59:48Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:02:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:04:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:05:03Z vermiculus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:10:09Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T06:11:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:12:32Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T06:13:15Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:15:39Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:20:31Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T06:23:37Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:24:28Z eni joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:24:44Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:25:44Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:31:01Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:31:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:40:31Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T06:40:32Z johann__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T06:41:24Z tuxbrave_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:42:55Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:45:02Z tuxbrave__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:46:10Z tuxbrave_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:47:44Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:48:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:51:43Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:53:17Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:56:31Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T06:56:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T06:57:32Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:58:01Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T06:59:32Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T06:59:38Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:01:28Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:02:49Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T07:03:46Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:06:33Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T07:07:27Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:08:03Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:09:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:12:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:16:42Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:16:55Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-25T07:21:23Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:25:46Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:26:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:27:07Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:34:02Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:37:45Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:41:09Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:41:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:42:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:42:59Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:44:01Z WaterOnMars joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:45:48Z keen_______ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:46:10Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:46:27Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:46:30Z keen______ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:48:22Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:50:05Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-25T07:50:07Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:50:55Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:51:08Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:51:43Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T07:53:14Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-25T07:56:00Z White_Flame: beach: is there a reason you didn't call "poll points" "safepoints" like everybody else? 2015-10-25T07:56:23Z White_Flame: just so that there doesn't have to be a new term; unless there's a particular difference 2015-10-25T07:56:41Z White_Flame: (erm, regarding the clordane pdf) 2015-10-25T08:05:18Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:08:04Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:09:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:16:11Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:16:11Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T08:17:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:17:36Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:23:38Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:35:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:37:02Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-25T08:40:36Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:40:40Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:42:07Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:42:38Z Raimondii joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:43:16Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:43:47Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:43:47Z Raimondi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:46:46Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T08:48:08Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T08:48:20Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:48:45Z beach: White_Flame: No reason. Thanks for the remark. 2015-10-25T08:49:16Z beach: I thought "safe points" had to do with the garbage collector. 2015-10-25T08:49:18Z White_Flame: k, haven't read through the whole paper yet, but it struck me as being what I've seen called safepoints everywhere else 2015-10-25T08:49:31Z beach: It could very well be. 2015-10-25T08:49:39Z White_Flame: the JVM also uses them for code replacement 2015-10-25T08:49:53Z beach: Good to know. Thanks again. 2015-10-25T08:49:55Z White_Flame: and a few other things I can't recall at the moment 2015-10-25T08:50:26Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-25T08:50:50Z beach: I guess that there may be safepoints that aren't poll points because of the code being compiled with low DEBUG flag. 2015-10-25T08:50:56Z beach: I need to think about it. 2015-10-25T08:51:21Z beach: ... and look up the definition of "safepoint". 2015-10-25T08:51:54Z brucem: White_Flame: thread stuff as well, like taking stack traces of other threads. 2015-10-25T08:52:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T09:00:12Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-25T09:02:15Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:09:18Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:11:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T09:12:37Z eni quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T09:13:29Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:14:06Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:17:00Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T09:18:20Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:22:52Z pjb: phoe_krk_: you can use (declaim (function myfun)) (defclass … (function myfun) …) 2015-10-25T09:27:06Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-25T09:27:21Z pjb: White_Flame: there's declaim to make toplevel declarations. 2015-10-25T09:30:16Z pjb: phoe_krk_: calling defvar without a value doesn't do nothing. It does (declaim (special myvar)); This is the reason you should not do (defvar myvar), but (defvar *myvar*) so that it does instead (declaim (special *myvar*)). 2015-10-25T09:30:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:31:57Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-25T09:32:12Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen`: you can use Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2015-10-25T09:32:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen` when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:32:16Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: you can use Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2015-10-25T09:32:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:34:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:35:21Z pjb: minion: memo for vermiculus: CL implementations tend to have good CFFI; and if you have really difficult C headers, you can use ecl (either with inline C, or as an embedded library in an existing program), or clisp by writing the C module to interface with your system and clisp. 2015-10-25T09:35:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vermiculus when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:36:02Z pjb: minion: memo for vermiculus: in anycase, using an existing CL implementation (when it's possible) will be much less work than rewriting one from scratch, just ask drmeister. 2015-10-25T09:36:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vermiculus when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:37:29Z pjb: minion: memo for vermiculus: In list: (eval (read-from-string lisp-string)) ; for mumps strings: (eval (translate-to-lisp (parse-mump-string mump-string))) ; trivial. 2015-10-25T09:37:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vermiculus when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:38:49Z paulo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:39:13Z paulo_ is now known as Guest8036 2015-10-25T09:42:24Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T09:42:32Z Guest68879 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T09:42:53Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: global lexical can be built with define-symbol-macro. There are deflexical or defglobal in libraries, search for them. 2015-10-25T09:43:12Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:44:53Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:46:11Z beach: pjb: To be honest, though, vermiculus said he was working on a new dialect, and that dialect might be a lot easier to implement than Common Lisp. 2015-10-25T09:46:43Z pjb: Yes, but the spirit of Common Lisp is to supersede all dialects. 2015-10-25T09:46:58Z pjb: At the very least, one can make a subset of Common Lisp, instead of a dialect. 2015-10-25T09:47:18Z beach: pjb: Also, how come you found it advisable to ask drmeister but not me? Do you think he is having more difficulty than I do? :) 2015-10-25T09:47:33Z pjb: Yes. You have it cool :-) 2015-10-25T09:47:40Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T09:47:46Z beach: Thanks! (I guess) :) 2015-10-25T09:48:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:49:09Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-25T09:49:39Z pjb: On the other hand, there's another implementation strategy here that could make use of sicl: "port" and target sicl on mumps. So that there's no FFI but just native calls. 2015-10-25T09:49:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-25T09:50:53Z pjb: (but if we look at emacs-cl for example, the different typologies may still pose some difficulties). 2015-10-25T09:53:03Z pjb: minion: memo for gabriel_laddel: have a look at JITC (Just in Time compiling) techniques. They should be appliable to adaptative data structures. Basically, you want run-time statistics on usage patterns, and trigger restructuring from them. 2015-10-25T09:53:03Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell gabriel_laddel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:53:44Z beach: pjb: I think I'll wait and recommend something to vermiculus until I know more about what the requirements are, especially in terms of performance, etc. 2015-10-25T09:53:51Z pjb: minion: memo for gabriel_laddel: it may also help to use global analysis. 2015-10-25T09:53:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell gabriel_laddel when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T09:54:22Z pjb: beach: it seems his problem is more one of convenience. 2015-10-25T09:55:46Z beach: I actually didn't read what was said very carefully. Already, implementing an existing specification is non-trivial. Specifying a new dialect and then implementing it is way much harder, I think. 2015-10-25T09:57:20Z pjb: axion: you can use bit-* operations on bit arrays. As long as they are of same dimensions. 2015-10-25T09:57:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T09:57:51Z pjb: axion: check: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/pPUnDt5ltXY/LmnI9GLD8CUJ 2015-10-25T09:59:02Z pjb: So (all-zeroes-p (bit-and a b)) would tell you if the 1s in b would cover the 1s in a. 2015-10-25T10:01:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:05:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T10:06:24Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:06:51Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:11:50Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:11:53Z zacharias quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T10:12:08Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:12:54Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-25T10:15:26Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T10:16:20Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll try that. For curiosity's sake, is there another way? 2015-10-25T11:09:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T11:11:21Z ggole: If you mean is there some special symbol (like _ in ML, Prolog etc), I don't think so. 2015-10-25T11:12:09Z ggole: The pattern matching libraries tend to define such symbols though. 2015-10-25T11:26:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:27:24Z DruidGreeneyes: Is there a good resource somewhere for proper usage of proclaim/declaim (specifically, what is and is not a valid argument)? 2015-10-25T11:28:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T11:28:55Z DruidGreeneyes: (declare (ignore unused-variable)) seems to work, although I'm still unclear on where to put it, but I can't seem do that through a (declaim) statement, and I'm at a loss as to why 2015-10-25T11:29:38Z White_Flame: it generally goes here: (something-that-declares-variables (declare (about those vars)) ..body..) 2015-10-25T11:30:01Z DruidGreeneyes: Oh good, thank you 2015-10-25T11:30:24Z White_Flame: and (locally (declare (...)) ...body...) for whenever there's no appropriate wrapping form 2015-10-25T11:31:16Z White_Flame: also see declaration* in 2015-10-25T11:31:19Z White_Flame: clhs destructuring-bind 2015-10-25T11:31:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 2015-10-25T11:33:53Z White_Flame: declaim & proclaim work with the toplevel & global environment; they don't work with lexical variables 2015-10-25T11:37:51Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:38:32Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:38:47Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T11:40:57Z DruidGreeneyes: Great. Thanks guys! 2015-10-25T11:42:34Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T11:44:44Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:47:16Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T11:48:24Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T11:49:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:49:52Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T11:51:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:52:24Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:54:09Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T11:54:56Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T11:55:33Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:55:46Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:58:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-25T11:59:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:01:49Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T12:05:36Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:08:52Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:12:59Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:14:23Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T12:16:11Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-10-25T12:17:25Z jackdaniel: o/ 2015-10-25T12:19:08Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:19:31Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:20:11Z oleo: morning 2015-10-25T12:22:22Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:30:11Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:33:16Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T12:33:22Z native_killer quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T12:37:24Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:37:32Z guaqua` is now known as guaqua 2015-10-25T12:38:25Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:40:18Z axion: pjb: thanks, but i just figured out this wont really work 2015-10-25T12:42:34Z pjb: axion: you seem to be afraid to program two loops. 2015-10-25T12:43:34Z axion: pjb: i just discovered another bit of logic that invalidates this process 2015-10-25T12:44:05Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:45:08Z axion: rooms not only can't overlap, but they cannot be directly adjacent either - there needs to be at least a 1 tile gap 2015-10-25T12:45:31Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:46:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:49:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:50:28Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-25T12:53:01Z pjb: axion: why would that be? Why couldn't they have a common wall? 2015-10-25T12:54:11Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T12:54:47Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-25T12:56:06Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-25T12:57:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T12:57:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T12:58:19Z ozihcs left #lisp 2015-10-25T12:58:26Z axion: pjb: because it otherwise ruins the rest of the logic for the generation method _and_ the game 2015-10-25T12:59:25Z DruidGreeneyes left #lisp 2015-10-25T13:01:39Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:03:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:07:04Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:08:01Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:09:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:09:36Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T13:11:19Z Mark- joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:11:24Z Mark- left #lisp 2015-10-25T13:15:10Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:18:58Z zfx joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:19:45Z zfx: hey all — does quicklisp honour (:version :system "x.y.z") for dependencies in asdf systems? 2015-10-25T13:23:25Z zfx: if so, is it something worth relying on to fix dependency versions? 2015-10-25T13:24:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:25:03Z jackdaniel: zfx: for the exact versioning you have to download the corresponding sources and put them in local-projects 2015-10-25T13:25:14Z jackdaniel: quicklisp provides only *one* version of each package 2015-10-25T13:25:39Z zfx: ok, so in that case, if I want a "stable" build on a different machine, then I should fix the appropriate dist version 2015-10-25T13:26:32Z jackdaniel: yes. there is also undocumented feature to provide your own dist address 2015-10-25T13:26:46Z zfx: I’ll look into that 2015-10-25T13:26:52Z zfx: thanks 2015-10-25T13:26:56Z jackdaniel: and you could keep packages you want in your own repository 2015-10-25T13:27:07Z jackdaniel: I'd go with local-projects solution though :-) 2015-10-25T13:27:17Z zfx: it seems stable enough for now, assuming old dists don’t vanish too quickly 2015-10-25T13:27:28Z zfx: but must be a ton of work for Xach 2015-10-25T13:28:10Z XachX: Old dists are indelible 2015-10-25T13:28:15Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:28:32Z zfx: in that case, awesome 2015-10-25T13:28:52Z XachX: It is so much work. But the love I get in return is reward enough. And the riches. 2015-10-25T13:29:01Z zfx: heh 2015-10-25T13:29:29Z nyef: What was that? Old dists are inedible? 2015-10-25T13:31:37Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:32:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:34:27Z zfx: XachX: is the release key in the pgp strong set? 2015-10-25T13:35:25Z XachX: zfx: don't know what that is. So no. 2015-10-25T13:35:31Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:35:33Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T13:35:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:36:27Z zfx: XachX: the biggest 'island' of mutual keysigs, any keys in it have a path between them — it looks like it is 2015-10-25T13:36:53Z zfx: XachX: makes it easier for people to trust the key without verifying fingerprint from you (depending on how many hops they care for) 2015-10-25T13:37:25Z hydan quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'm just starting a project and want to use middleware ("clack-errors") 2015-10-25T13:54:28Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:54:35Z mbrock`: (er, I mean the "clack-v1-compat" system, not package) 2015-10-25T13:54:38Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:56:08Z qubitnerd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T13:56:35Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:57:10Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T13:57:24Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T13:58:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: mbrock`: a lot of the middleware was moved to lack 2015-10-25T13:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: fukamachi is in the process of re-architecting clack. 2015-10-25T13:59:46Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-25T14:00:15Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:00:49Z mbrock`: fiddlerwoaroof: oh, ok, thanks. haven't looked at lack yet. ah, it allows streaming responses, I do want that. I'll try it 2015-10-25T14:01:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: clack and lack work together, I think 2015-10-25T14:01:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:06:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T14:07:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:07:54Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T14:13:02Z mbrock`: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, seems to work fine with clack-errors too 2015-10-25T14:20:54Z Polyphony quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T14:20:54Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T14:27:14Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T14:28:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: mbrock`: I don't remember it's name, but there's nicer debugging middleware than what comes with clack/lack 2015-10-25T14:28:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I see you've found it :) 2015-10-25T14:30:53Z fiddlerwoaroof likes being able to use Java libraries without using Java 2015-10-25T14:35:29Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:36:08Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:37:02Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T14:38:19Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:38:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:38:44Z mbrock`: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, it's nice :) SLIME's own restart handler is very useful while coding, too 2015-10-25T14:46:21Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2015-10-25T14:47:02Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:47:32Z Raimondii quit (Quit: The road to wisdom?—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein) 2015-10-25T14:48:10Z Raimondi joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:48:24Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T14:48:27Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:51:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T14:52:47Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:53:16Z anddam joined #lisp 2015-10-25T14:54:01Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T14:55:22Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Are there some know problems, or does it even work easily on all smartphones? 2015-10-25T17:35:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:35:29Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:39:41Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:44:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T17:47:29Z ASau quit (Changing host) 2015-10-25T17:47:30Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:48:17Z H4ns: k-stz: it depends on what user interface you want your lisp code to have. if you just want to have console i/o, it is "relatively easy". if you want to do app development in lisp, things will be more involved. 2015-10-25T17:48:38Z H4ns: k-stz: "work easily" is not the expression that i'd use in that context, in any case. 2015-10-25T17:49:23Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:52:52Z k-stz: which platform would be least painful 2015-10-25T17:53:34Z k-stz: planning to run sdl2 stuff 2015-10-25T17:54:36Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T17:56:41Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T17:57:08Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T17:59:36Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T18:03:45Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:04:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:09:39Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:10:55Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:12:08Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T18:12:14Z baotiao joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:13:19Z baotiao quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T18:14:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-10-25T18:14:36Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T18:16:29Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:17:15Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:21:40Z Big_G quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T18:22:04Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:22:14Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:23:10Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:26:10Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:30:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T18:30:55Z oleba left #lisp 2015-10-25T18:32:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T18:40:44Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T18:42:13Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:43:14Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:45:34Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:47:40Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-25T18:48:02Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:48:50Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:49:45Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:50:27Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:51:26Z eazar001_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:51:26Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:51:47Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:51:59Z emaczen: I have a macro that generates a macro it is generating "(defmacro add (p cd) (send (p cd) 'add))" 2015-10-25T18:51:59Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: you can use Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2015-10-25T18:51:59Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: you can use Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2015-10-25T18:52:30Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:52:39Z emaczen: My question is, when I call this macro like (add a b), it still expands to (send (p cd) 'add) 2015-10-25T18:53:08Z emaczen: I want it to expand to (send (a b) 'add) in this case 2015-10-25T18:53:10Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T18:54:46Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T18:56:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T18:56:34Z eazar001_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-25T18:56:48Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-25T18:59:58Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:04:35Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:07:01Z blubjr joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:07:08Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:07:19Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-25T19:08:19Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(format stream "~v:@" n) works when i can give the elements explicitly, but i want them to come from a list. i could do it by building a format string with format nil, but that's ugly. is there a way to do it with one call to format 2015-10-25T19:28:16Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:30:01Z eni joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:30:09Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:30:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T19:31:26Z Big_G quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T19:33:49Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T19:35:10Z puchacz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:35:18Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:36:07Z puchacz: hi, is it possible to set up slime completely on lisp side? I don't want (slime-setup '(slime-repl slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-tramp slime-sprof)) in emacs. it makes swank try to load files when I connect remotely, and I don't have these files on remote computer. 2015-10-25T19:36:20Z puchacz: if I set it up on lisp side, I would have it in exported image 2015-10-25T19:36:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:37:09Z puchacz: (forget tramp and sprof actually, but the question still stands for repl and fancy) 2015-10-25T19:38:38Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T19:39:04Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:39:05Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-25T19:44:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:47:08Z ozihcs joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:58:00Z ozihcs quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-25T19:58:27Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-25T19:59:31Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T19:59:38Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-25T20:00:33Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T20:00:44Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:00:59Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:04:16Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:04:43Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:04:49Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-25T20:06:04Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:09:36Z zeroish joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:09:41Z psy_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-25T20:11:03Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-10-25T20:13:49Z axion: how can i generate a random number in a given range (inclusive) without giving bias to the min/max by clamping etc? 2015-10-25T20:14:17Z pjb: (+ min (random (- max min))) 2015-10-25T20:14:48Z Shinmera: RANDOM is exclusive. 2015-10-25T20:15:00Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T20:17:39Z pjb: k-stz: android is much freer an environment, so I'd say yes, just get an Android phone. Apple will reject programs using garbage collection (they think it consumes too much energy, because they were unable to make a garbage collector work economically with Objective-C :-P). They will also reject programs generating code at run-time. And they will definitely use a bazooka to reject application that can run code obtained from the 2015-10-25T20:17:39Z pjb: Internet without going thru the AppStore and paying 30% to Apple. 2015-10-25T20:17:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:17:55Z pjb: k-stz: all this places a lot of restrictions on the use of lisp you can do on iOS. 2015-10-25T20:18:31Z pjb: Those restrictions reflect eg. on MoCL (which implements only a subset of CL, therefore most of your existing code won't run unchanged in MoCL if at all, including most of the quicklisp libraries). 2015-10-25T20:18:55Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:19:12Z akkad: mocl needs a lot of love. 2015-10-25T20:19:23Z jasom: axion: generate a random integer up to (N*M)+1 and divide by M which gives you a random number in the range 0..N inclusive 2015-10-25T20:19:52Z akkad: mocl src updates appear to have stopped 2015-10-25T20:20:04Z axion: thanks 2015-10-25T20:20:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:20:22Z jasom: axion: alternatively you can generate a random float below N+delta and so long as delta is greater than 1ULP you just discard any numbers greater than N 2015-10-25T20:20:34Z jasom: if delta is les than 1 ULP then you won't ever generate N 2015-10-25T20:20:38Z pjb: k-stz: basically, if you MUST write an iOS app, and you'd rather use CL to write (the core of the features), then you could use MoCL targetting iOS. But for all its deficiency (and the fact that it's going more than one year without update, despite a bug list longer than clisp, and given it's a commercial product), I'd advise to consider using clicc (of which at least you have the sources and can improve) or ecl (if you can stay within 2015-10-25T20:20:38Z pjb: the constraints of Apple). 2015-10-25T20:21:01Z pjb: On the other hand, ecl works well on Android. 2015-10-25T20:21:32Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:21:37Z jasom: pjb: last Free version of clicc is written against CLtL1 I thought 2015-10-25T20:21:51Z pjb: In any case, ecl, MoCL, Android or iOS, you will definitely need to write the UI with the native framework (ie. Java or Objective-C/Swift). 2015-10-25T20:22:14Z pjb: jasom: It would be good to work on clicc. 2015-10-25T20:23:29Z axion: jasom: i just want to generate an int within [3..10] 2015-10-25T20:23:45Z pjb: sdl2, or game graphics, on Android is done withe the NDK anyways, so you're already there with ecl on Android. You just still need to write a little Java stub to call the native code library. 2015-10-25T20:23:54Z jasom: axion: oh, then just (+ 3 (random 8)) 2015-10-25T20:24:11Z akkad: using web interface was easiest on android for me 2015-10-25T20:24:54Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T20:25:10Z pjb: blubjr: it's possible. 2015-10-25T20:25:53Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:28:19Z axion: jasom: thanks. i'm sorry for such basic logic questions. my brain is not working that great after a couple weeks away from coding. i also have a rule where the chosen number needs to be odd. i'll have to figure out an efficient way to do that as well 2015-10-25T20:28:51Z jasom: axion: oh, that's similarly easy, just multiply by two and halve the range 2015-10-25T20:29:11Z k-stz: pjb: thanks for the overview 2015-10-25T20:29:23Z jasom: (+ 3 (* 2 (random 4))) 2015-10-25T20:29:38Z jasom: axion: though then 10 is no longer part of the range, obviously 2015-10-25T20:29:47Z pjb: blubjr: but you need a number of argument multiple of the number of columns: (format nil "~{~30<~%~A~;~A~;~A~>~}~%" '(foo bar baz quux toto titi tata tutu foo)) 2015-10-25T20:30:40Z jasom: axion: for such small ranges you can usually work it out on paper by writing out which numbers you want and then figuring out how to convert it to a range [0,N) 2015-10-25T20:31:11Z jasom: axion: all the answers I've given you I've done in my head, so some of them may be wrong :) 2015-10-25T20:31:15Z ggole quit 2015-10-25T20:31:22Z preacherAKAnd quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-25T20:31:41Z axion: ok, thanks :) 2015-10-25T20:32:12Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:32:59Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:34:29Z puchacz: I see in the chat log today we had a discussion on ECL android support.... jackdaniel, how do you set up slime so it does not try to load any files when receiving connection request from emacs on PC? android does not have /home/puchacz/.slime etc. 2015-10-25T20:34:41Z blubjr: pjb: the number of columns is a parameter too, how can i use ~V< and ~{ in the same format string 2015-10-25T20:35:29Z jsgrant_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T20:36:04Z pjb: blubjr: You can cheat by using a mincol for the format inside ~<~>. 2015-10-25T20:37:05Z pjb: blubjr: (format nil "~%|~{~<~%|~1,30:;~8A~>~^|~}|~%" '(foo bar baz quux toto titi tata tutu)) 2015-10-25T20:37:21Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:37:37Z pjb: so you define the total width with ~1,30:; and the column width with ~8A. 2015-10-25T20:40:08Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:41:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:41:19Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:41:19Z duikboot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:41:56Z anddam: is there a specific option to enable FFI at build time in clisp? I'm not able to find one 2015-10-25T20:42:58Z axion: jasom: while that works well, i also need min/max to be variables, and the math messes up 2015-10-25T20:43:21Z jasom: axion: you just need to make sure you round in the correct direction 2015-10-25T20:43:55Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-25T20:44:12Z jasom: axion: first thing is to subtract the min from both min and max, that gets you centered on zero 2015-10-25T20:44:35Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T20:44:46Z jasom: then just add one before doing a (floor 2) to get the upper bound 2015-10-25T20:45:03Z jasom: wait, you may need to add 2, I need paper now :) 2015-10-25T20:45:14Z axion: yeah i've been papering it for an hour :) 2015-10-25T20:45:15Z jasom: yeah, add 2 2015-10-25T20:45:22Z axion: i'm way too confused now 2015-10-25T20:45:30Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:45:31Z jasom: 1 sec, I'll paste my solution 2015-10-25T20:46:13Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:47:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:47:47Z mbrock: hmm, I'm just trying ParenScript for the first time, and didn't expect this: (parenscript:ps (@ x y)) ==> "at(x, y);" (I expected "x.y") 2015-10-25T20:48:13Z jasom: mbrock: you need ps:@ 2015-10-25T20:48:41Z pjb: anddam: yes, you must configure clisp with FFI to have it. Also, you need to have the right library installed (libffcall/libavcall). 2015-10-25T20:48:59Z mbrock: jasom: ahhh, of course! thanks 2015-10-25T20:49:59Z anddam: pjb: so it's autodetection or nothing, right? No explicit option 2015-10-25T20:50:11Z pjb: anddam: If you have ffcall installed in a non-standard directory, you can do: ./configure --with-ffcall=yes --with-libffcall-prefix=/opt/local --with-libsigsegv-prefix=/opt/local --with-threads=POSIX_THREADS 2015-10-25T20:50:11Z pjb: 2015-10-25T20:50:30Z pjb: anddam: also, you want libsigsegv, to detect stack overflows. 2015-10-25T20:51:00Z jasom: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157463 2015-10-25T20:51:15Z anddam: pjb: I see 2015-10-25T20:51:30Z anddam: atm I have FFI: no (user requested: default) in build logs 2015-10-25T20:52:05Z pjb: --with-ffcall=yes should activate it, if you have the ffcall library 2015-10-25T20:52:06Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T20:52:16Z anddam: I do 2015-10-25T20:53:33Z anddam: pjb: does with-libffcall-prefix imply with-ffcal? 2015-10-25T20:53:39Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T20:53:46Z pjb: I wouldn't think so. 2015-10-25T20:53:52Z pjb: You may try it. 2015-10-25T20:53:58Z anddam: i'll do 2015-10-25T20:54:21Z axion: jasom: hmm studying now. thanks a lot. 2015-10-25T20:54:29Z anddam: is FFI usage common enough to justify enabling it on a package that has to be distributed? 2015-10-25T20:54:44Z pjb: anddam: what "package"? 2015-10-25T20:54:49Z anddam: a port 2015-10-25T20:54:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:55:07Z pjb: anddam: Yes. A lot of libraries unfortunately use FFI. (thru CFFI). 2015-10-25T20:55:16Z jlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T20:55:21Z pjb: So it's definitely a good help to users to provide FFI. 2015-10-25T20:55:28Z pjb: and threads too. 2015-10-25T20:55:45Z anddam: I'll update the portfile to pull in ffcall lib and ffi support in clisp 2015-10-25T20:55:54Z pjb: and libsigsegv. 2015-10-25T20:56:07Z anddam: that's already there 2015-10-25T20:56:11Z pjb: good :-) 2015-10-25T20:56:26Z anddam: I "found learn lisp the hard way" and I went getting the repo to have it hosted locally 2015-10-25T20:56:46Z anddam: turns out it's using a lisp webserver, hunchentoot 2015-10-25T20:56:58Z anddam: in order to run it I managed to install quicklisp 2015-10-25T20:57:06Z anddam: but then I got 2015-10-25T20:57:08Z anddam: [package cffi-sys] 2015-10-25T20:57:10Z anddam: *** - CFFI requires CLISP compiled with dynamic FFI support. 2015-10-25T20:57:20Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-25T20:57:47Z anddam: actually I had a couple issue before but re-compiling went to a different error (and I figure a different point in source code) 2015-10-25T20:58:05Z anddam: https://github.com/LispTO/llthw this is the repo and this the helping script https://github.com/LispTO/llthw/blob/master/run-llthw.lisp 2015-10-25T20:58:32Z anddam: with a plain clisp install with quicklisp just installed I launched REPL and ran (ql:quickload "llthw") 2015-10-25T20:59:03Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T20:59:20Z anddam: btw invoking "clisp run-llthw.lisp" at cli gave 2015-10-25T20:59:22Z anddam: *** - READ from #: there is no package with name "QL 2015-10-25T20:59:40Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T20:59:50Z anddam: I figure batch mode isn't parsing ~/.clisprc.lisp, is that correct? 2015-10-25T21:00:17Z anddam: because it isn't finding quicklisp package 2015-10-25T21:00:23Z pjb: anddam: notice that there are other implementations than clisp (which is an implementation of Common Lisp written in C). ccl, sbcl, cmucl are written in Common Lisp. ecl is written half in CL, half in C. abcl is written in lisp and java. https://github.com/LispTO/llthw/blob/master/resources/get-lisp.md gives the instructions to install sbcl. 2015-10-25T21:01:13Z pjb: anddam: yes, by default, clisp scripts won't load ~/.clisprc.lisp. You can put (load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))) at the beginning of the script, and the ql:quickload. 2015-10-25T21:01:25Z pjb: This depends on having quicklisp installed in $HOME. 2015-10-25T21:01:51Z duikboot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:02:13Z jasom: or just use (quicklisp:add-to-init-file) 2015-10-25T21:02:22Z anddam: right, but I have "land of lisp" (I liked the comics) and from its initial chapters start I went with clisp 2015-10-25T21:02:23Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-25T21:02:29Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:02:42Z anddam: I did add ql to init file, that's how figured that batch mode wasn't loading it 2015-10-25T21:03:02Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T21:03:16Z pjb: This is because in general, in scripts, you want to avoid ~/.clisprc. There's a similar selection of initfiles with bash. 2015-10-25T21:03:46Z pjb: In personal rc files, you can change the setting is such a way that 1- interactive things occur, and 2- renders the environment incompatible with the scripts. 2015-10-25T21:04:38Z antoszka is now known as jowtoszka 2015-10-25T21:04:38Z anddam: is that run-llthw.lisp file supposed to be run interactively then? or modified by loading quicklisp? 2015-10-25T21:05:03Z mat4 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T21:05:03Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-25T21:05:09Z phoe_krk_ quit (Quit: phoe_krk_) 2015-10-25T21:05:50Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:06:02Z pjb: anddam: chsh /usr/bin/clisp ; logout ; login ;-) 2015-10-25T21:06:02Z jasom: anddam: I haven't used clisp in a while, but I think you want clisp -i run-lithw.lisp 2015-10-25T21:06:27Z jasom: pjb: probably won't work 2015-10-25T21:06:28Z pjb: anddam: you can run clisp interactively, and then (load "run-llthw.lisp") 2015-10-25T21:09:28Z anddam: yes, that I did already 2015-10-25T21:09:53Z anddam: I was trying to figure how that helper script was supposed to be run 2015-10-25T21:10:07Z anddam: is sbcl a sensible choice? 2015-10-25T21:10:12Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-25T21:11:09Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T21:11:10Z jowtoszka is now known as antoszka 2015-10-25T21:11:44Z pjb: anddam: All CL implementations are good and sensible. 2015-10-25T21:12:22Z pjb: I find clisp nice to learn; ccl nice to develop with (notably on MacOSX); sbcl or ecl nice to generate executables on target platforms. 2015-10-25T21:12:32Z pjb: or abcl if you have to target the JVM. 2015-10-25T21:13:57Z anddam: mm I cannot build ffcall on x86_64 2015-10-25T21:14:12Z pjb: anddam: on linux? 2015-10-25T21:14:18Z anddam: os x 2015-10-25T21:14:27Z pjb: Ah, yes. Somebody should update it. 2015-10-25T21:14:41Z anddam: it == libffcall? 2015-10-25T21:15:08Z pjb: You will have to do without FFI on OSX. Instead try ccl. It's in the Appstore "Clozure CL.app", or at http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html 2015-10-25T21:15:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:15:23Z pjb: yes, it = libffcall. 2015-10-25T21:15:47Z pjb: anddam: also, on MacOSX, you'd want a FFI to Objective-C. ccl provides that. 2015-10-25T21:16:05Z anddam: i'm using macports 2015-10-25T21:16:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:16:44Z anddam: I was actually trying to upate the portfile themselves 2015-10-25T21:16:49Z anddam: I see ccl is in ports 2015-10-25T21:17:16Z pjb: And you can even use my Objective-CL library, which lets you write things like https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/objcl/howto.lisp 2015-10-25T21:17:24Z anddam: but I guess that wouldn't work anyway with the broken ffcall port 2015-10-25T21:17:31Z pjb: ccl doesn't need ffcall. 2015-10-25T21:17:35Z pjb: It does it natively. 2015-10-25T21:17:36Z anddam: how so? 2015-10-25T21:17:49Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T21:17:53Z pjb: Because it's written in lisp. Remember, clisp is written in C, a poor language. 2015-10-25T21:18:23Z pjb: Check this example: http://cliki.net/com.informatimago.hangman 2015-10-25T21:19:03Z anddam: sold, I'm installing ccl 2015-10-25T21:20:44Z pjb: With ccl, you can (require :cocoa) and this will launch the GUI including the editor Hemlock, listener windows, inspector windows, etc. 2015-10-25T21:22:34Z eni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T21:22:56Z anddam: pjb: I don't have a clue on what you're talking about, I guess I'll learn 2015-10-25T21:23:00Z anddam: thanks for all the info 2015-10-25T21:24:21Z pjb: Just try it. 2015-10-25T21:24:55Z anddam: ? (require :cocoa) 2015-10-25T21:24:56Z anddam: > Error: Can't create directory "/opt/local/share/ccl/1.10/temp bundle64.app/". 2015-10-25T21:25:05Z pjb: anddam: you need write access. 2015-10-25T21:25:25Z anddam: i'm running ccl as user why is it writing in a system wide dir? 2015-10-25T21:25:29Z anddam: (or trying to) 2015-10-25T21:25:30Z pjb: sudo chown -R $yourself "/opt/local/share/ccl/" 2015-10-25T21:25:41Z anddam: sounds wrong 2015-10-25T21:25:54Z anddam: just like I don't allow pip to install in system's directories 2015-10-25T21:26:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:26:33Z pjb: Yes, but lisp deployment in general goes contrary to what's expected of contemporaneous applications on a lot of systems, because lisp is much more dynamic and meta- a programming language. 2015-10-25T21:26:51Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:27:09Z nyef: Also, lisp pre-dates most systems. 2015-10-25T21:27:23Z artime joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:27:34Z anddam: yep I read a bit of history 2015-10-25T21:27:49Z anddam: I'll check tomorrow, thanks again 2015-10-25T21:27:54Z p_l: I think CCL code itself predates OSX origins 2015-10-25T21:28:17Z pjb: anddam: if you want to manage it "correct" from a unix point of view, you would first call (require :cocoa) under an application administrator account, and then leave it read-only for the other users. 2015-10-25T21:28:45Z pjb: But then you need to switch to that administrator account each time a change is needed there (eg. when you compile a new interface file for a new framework). 2015-10-25T21:29:06Z pjb: So it's easier to chown $yourself it since in general, nowdays, you're the only user of the computer. 2015-10-25T21:29:17Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-25T21:30:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:30:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:30:37Z pjb: Notice that lisp was invented on single-user machines (and then John McCarthy went on to invent time sharing, because, you know, interactive lisp, therefore multi-user), and then developped on lisp machines which were single-user workstations, and nowadays, it's used by single users on a multi-user system that was initially designed for a unique user (unix, vs. multics). 2015-10-25T21:31:57Z pjb: https://www.appannie.com/apps/mac/app/clozure-cl/# 2015-10-25T21:32:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:33:03Z p_l: pjb: unix was multi-user from start, the unics vs. multics pun was separate thing (first "real" unix deployment was time sharing for technical writers) 2015-10-25T21:34:10Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:34:38Z pjb: p_l: from the first deployment. But really, they only wanted to run space invaders on the PDP-11, alone, nothing else. The first deployment was way way later, when they made it their job to develop a new OS for AT&T to justify their salary. If they had had at Xerox, they wouldn't have had to make it profitable, and we might have obtained a lisp machine instead. 2015-10-25T21:35:33Z pjb: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id489900618 Well, the screen shot shows a hemlock window, the application window, and two listener windows. 2015-10-25T21:35:38Z p_l: pjb: *one* of them was trying to make a game, the other was interested in OS design, both wanted to play around with some ideas they did implement on multics first but better integrated (for example, standard input/output redirection) 2015-10-25T21:35:56Z pjb: ok ok :-) 2015-10-25T21:36:14Z wtbrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:36:21Z pjb: And notably, pipes were invented later, by a "user". 2015-10-25T21:36:37Z pjb: Douglas McIlroy 2015-10-25T21:36:52Z pjb: s/later/earlier/ 2015-10-25T21:37:10Z pjb: http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/pipes/ 2015-10-25T21:37:18Z pjb: In 1964, same year lisp macros were invented. 2015-10-25T21:37:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:38:16Z pjb: But in unix, it's only in version 3, that they appeared: "The pipeline concept was invented by Douglas McIlroy and first described in the man pages of Version 3 Unix." 2015-10-25T21:38:54Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:39:54Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:40:20Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:40:49Z snv1: Unix is getting too old. 2015-10-25T21:40:53Z snv1: Lisp OS when? 2015-10-25T21:40:54Z p_l: pjb: yeah, pipes were something that technically existed (or "was doable"), but it was McIlroy that made them what people recognize now 2015-10-25T21:41:00Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T21:41:14Z p_l: wonder how McIlroy's pipes compare in history IBM PIPES 2015-10-25T21:41:36Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:41:54Z antoszka: snv1: 20 years ago 2015-10-25T21:42:00Z antoszka: sorry, 30 2015-10-25T21:43:00Z snv1: antoszka, the only thing I hate more than Unix is Russia. These two evil annoying things follow me whole life. 2015-10-25T21:43:01Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:43:25Z antoszka: I can live with Unix (of the two) :) 2015-10-25T21:43:29Z snv1: seems like in real life evil always wins :-( 2015-10-25T21:43:49Z antoszka: Yeah, we just, well, lost the parliamentary elections in Poland. 2015-10-25T21:43:52Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-25T21:43:57Z antoszka: Not a *single* left-wing party entered the parliament. 2015-10-25T21:44:01Z snv1: and we have C and russian alcoholics. 2015-10-25T21:44:40Z zfx left #lisp 2015-10-25T21:45:17Z p_l naively still hopes he won't need asylum after said election 2015-10-25T21:46:46Z snv1: antoszka, socialists/leftists are even worse than nazis. I think Unix is socialist, because Unix is very populist in its appeal to ignorance 2015-10-25T21:48:14Z antoszka: Well, populists we've got many. 2015-10-25T21:48:19Z Shinmera: Can we get back to lisp at some point please? 2015-10-25T21:48:31Z Shinmera: There's #lispcafe if you want to talk politics and such. 2015-10-25T21:48:47Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:49:00Z p_l: yeah, I kinda would like more lisp-ish theme for now 2015-10-25T21:49:00Z snv1: Shinmera, yes. World needs Lisp OS 2015-10-25T21:49:16Z Shinmera: The world had a lispos and didn't want it. 2015-10-25T21:49:22Z pjb: blubjr: there's also: (format t "~{~5@{~4D~^|~}~%~}" '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16)) if you want to specify the number and width of columns (ie, no ~<). 2015-10-25T21:49:24Z akkad: the original ones were soo good they dominated over unix and all... 2015-10-25T21:49:40Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T21:49:40Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:49:44Z snv1: Shinmera, you live in a wrong world. 2015-10-25T21:49:56Z snv1: and so your world is wrong. just wrong 2015-10-25T21:50:02Z Shinmera: K. 2015-10-25T21:50:03Z p_l: while not exactly CL-specific, anyone got pointers for good material on PreScheme? 2015-10-25T21:50:17Z pjb: ask in #scheme? 2015-10-25T21:51:04Z p_l: pjb: I'll (later), though tbh I do not expect they will have anything more - PreScheme is among the "weird Lisps for low-level systems programming" 2015-10-25T21:52:00Z snv1: p_l, ho does PreScheme manages memory? 2015-10-25T21:52:06Z snv1: *how does 2015-10-25T21:53:06Z p_l: snv1: afaik it doesn't - it's a limited form of scheme that is executable in a scheme environment, but compiles to predictable machine code that doesn't have GC 2015-10-25T21:54:33Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:54:33Z loadsdow` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:55:54Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T21:56:27Z p_l: anyway, my interest is related to using Lisp to build microcontroller software 2015-10-25T21:56:29Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:56:45Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T21:56:49Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:57:21Z White_Flame: memo 2015-10-25T21:57:47Z White_Flame: minion: memo for emaczen: mucking with nested quotes & commas always takes a few debugging passes. best to lisppaste what you've got already. (defmacro something () `(defmacro add (p cd) `(send (,p ,cd) 'add)) 2015-10-25T21:57:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-25T21:57:57Z snv1: p_l, I have made a Lisp dialect geared towards predictable memory usage https://github.com/saniv/symta/blob/master/doc/symta-by-example.md 2015-10-25T21:58:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-25T21:58:30Z blubjr: pjb: thank you 2015-10-25T22:00:40Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:03:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:04:53Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T22:10:46Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:13:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:16:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:20:10Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:20:31Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:21:20Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:21:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:23:21Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:23:40Z ajf-: I keep getting Error: The value # is not of the expected type (and array (satisfies array-has-fill-pointer-p)). 2015-10-25T22:23:59Z ajf-: vector-push-extend 2015-10-25T22:24:10Z ajf-: i should just use setf 2015-10-25T22:25:05Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T22:25:28Z ajf-: index out of bounds 2015-10-25T22:25:48Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:26:01Z nyef: ajf-: How did you create your # ? 2015-10-25T22:26:21Z ajf-: it's a list 2015-10-25T22:26:29Z nyef: Umm... No, it's not. 2015-10-25T22:26:30Z ajf-: but i've tried to deliver it as vector 2015-10-25T22:26:47Z nyef: Let me guess... COERCE? 2015-10-25T22:26:48Z ajf-: it looks like this: intro_rest 2015-10-25T22:26:51Z ajf-: sorry 2015-10-25T22:26:58Z ajf-: like this: intro_rest 2015-10-25T22:27:04Z ajf-: argh. my copy paste doesn't work 2015-10-25T22:27:13Z ajf-: no, not coerce 2015-10-25T22:27:58Z ajf-: '(-w. -h - - -w -h - - - -w - -) 2015-10-25T22:28:23Z ajf-: and the creation of the array: (setf parts (make-array '(16 1) :initial-element '-1 :adjustable t)) 2015-10-25T22:28:48Z nyef: Add ":fill-pointer t" to that make-array. 2015-10-25T22:29:14Z nyef: ... And there's something not quite right with the dimensions you're supplying there. 2015-10-25T22:31:55Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T22:32:45Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:32:46Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:33:27Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:34:15Z ajf-: hmm 2015-10-25T22:34:20Z ajf-: it's 16xN array 2015-10-25T22:34:33Z ajf-: and I wish to append to a given row X giving x as the row number 2015-10-25T22:34:39Z ajf-: sequentially 2015-10-25T22:34:46Z artime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:35:12Z nyef: So, fill-pointer isn't really appropriate, is it? 2015-10-25T22:35:12Z ajf-: after everything, retrieve row x 2015-10-25T22:36:12Z ajf-: I thought it wasn't 2015-10-25T22:37:13Z ajf-: array out of bounds 2015-10-25T22:37:37Z ajf-: so should I just make an 16x100 array and just readjust it later ? 2015-10-25T22:38:20Z nyef: Do you know that 100 is going to be sufficient? 2015-10-25T22:38:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:38:40Z ajf-: no 2015-10-25T22:40:01Z ajf-: o should I use 16 vectors ? 2015-10-25T22:41:43Z nyef: I can't tell you what you "should" do. I can help you evaluate options, tell you of drawbacks to a given approach if I'm aware of them, possibly even make recommendations, but it's your project, and your design... And your learning experience if you run into trouble with a given approach. 2015-10-25T22:42:10Z ajf-: wait but _can I_ append to an array with a given row number ? 2015-10-25T22:42:32Z ajf-: i'm looking for a function 2015-10-25T22:43:03Z nyef: clhs adjust-array 2015-10-25T22:43:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 2015-10-25T22:43:32Z ajf-: i know setf works but haven't seen anything about when it's adjustable 2015-10-25T22:44:40Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:44:45Z ajf-: so... setf array (get array (adjust array (foreach array append ... etc? 2015-10-25T22:44:54Z ajf-: mm i'll look for a library 2015-10-25T22:45:46Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:47:41Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:49:10Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-25T22:49:13Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:51:53Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-25T22:53:26Z ajf-: ok got it 2015-10-25T22:53:30Z ajf-: adjust-array, then setf 2015-10-25T22:57:06Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-25T22:58:16Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-10-25T22:59:26Z heddwch is now known as sammwch 2015-10-25T22:59:31Z sammwch is now known as heddwch 2015-10-25T23:00:42Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-25T23:01:50Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:02:23Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-25T23:09:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-25T23:10:46Z ajf-: i should be better off with a vector of vectors 2015-10-25T23:11:16Z nyef: There you go. And then you can arrange for a fill-pointer on the outer vector and use vector-push-extend. 2015-10-25T23:11:59Z ajf-: they should change vector to "array" and "array" to "table" 2015-10-25T23:12:04Z ajf-: hehe joke 2015-10-25T23:12:22Z nyef: At least it's not PHP, where "array" means hash-table. 2015-10-25T23:12:47Z ogamita quit (Quit: ogamita) 2015-10-25T23:13:07Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:13:15Z snv1: nyef, a lot of languages use hashtables for arrays. 2015-10-25T23:13:36Z snv1: for some reason wikipedia says that Lua is list-based/inspired. 2015-10-25T23:14:01Z snv1: guess array hashes are very lispy thingie 2015-10-25T23:14:44Z ajf-: no problem using #() literally ? 2015-10-25T23:14:56Z ajf-: instead of (vector .. ) 2015-10-25T23:16:45Z snv1: "We did not conside LISP or Scheme because of their unfriendly syntax. LISP and Scheme with their single, ubiquitous data structure mechanism (the list) were a major influence on their decision to develop the table as the primary data structure of Lua. " — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language) 2015-10-25T23:17:33Z snv1: apparently Lua is the acceptable Lisp. 2015-10-25T23:18:38Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-25T23:18:50Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:19:55Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-25T23:25:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:32:10Z whiteline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-25T23:35:23Z dim: isn't CL the acceptable lisp by design? 2015-10-25T23:35:36Z pjb: Yes. The others are not acceptable. 2015-10-25T23:35:56Z pjb: "We did not conside LISP or Scheme because of their unfriendly syntax." is automatically self-disqualifying. 2015-10-25T23:35:59Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:36:31Z dim: I agree with that, the lisp (lack of) syntax IME is only a problem to people who didn't try to read and write lisp code 2015-10-25T23:37:34Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:37:41Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T23:39:08Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-25T23:40:48Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:41:04Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-25T23:41:23Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-25T23:41:23Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:42:54Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:44:16Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:45:15Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:45:46Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:46:38Z randommelon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-25T23:47:23Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-10-25T23:47:31Z jesseman quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T23:47:44Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:48:54Z jesseman quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-25T23:49:23Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:50:31Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-25T23:55:18Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:56:22Z brunov0id joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:58:48Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-25T23:59:05Z brunov0id is now known as Cortex 2015-10-25T23:59:17Z zabriskie quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-26T00:02:57Z snv1: "Matsumoto describes the design of Ruby as being like a simple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) language at its core" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language) 2015-10-26T00:03:22Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:03:39Z snv1: oops! retarded Adium expands expands richtext links. 2015-10-26T00:04:18Z snv1: free software is full of bugs as always 2015-10-26T00:04:23Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T00:04:28Z pjb: snv1: ruby is matzacred lisp. It's not an acceptable lisp, too matzacred. 2015-10-26T00:04:34Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:04:59Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-26T00:04:59Z pjb: Besides, if you write lisp programs in Ruby, ruby programmers won't understand anything. 2015-10-26T00:05:02Z snv1: pjb, but ruby has continuations! 2015-10-26T00:05:11Z snv1: while CL doesnt 2015-10-26T00:05:26Z pjb: If they are implemented like ruby functions, then I don't want to hear about them. 2015-10-26T00:06:13Z snv1: pjb, http://blog.ontoillogical.com/blog/2014/07/12/delimited-continuations-in-ruby/ 2015-10-26T00:07:00Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:12:16Z troydm: is there a lein-like tool for Common Lisp 2015-10-26T00:12:33Z troydm: to quickly create a project and start swank server? 2015-10-26T00:13:31Z cpc26: quicklisp 2015-10-26T00:14:20Z troydm: cpc26: any links to documentation about how? 2015-10-26T00:14:27Z cpc26: http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ 2015-10-26T00:15:06Z cpc26: quicklisp ~ https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2015-10-26T00:15:24Z troydm: so it's not command line but instead must be executed from within repl after you have quicklisp installed right? 2015-10-26T00:15:48Z cpc26: right 2015-10-26T00:15:57Z XachX: It is not command line. You have to load it into lisp first. 2015-10-26T00:17:17Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:17:53Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T00:20:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:21:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:24:02Z papachan: troydm: and use slime with emacs its simply great 2015-10-26T00:24:20Z cpc26: second that 2015-10-26T00:28:25Z troydm: too much vim exposure, can't switch to normal editor 2015-10-26T00:28:49Z papachan: but if you start with CL its just a good oportunity 2015-10-26T00:29:35Z akkad: "but vim is not written in lisp" 2015-10-26T00:29:41Z troydm: papachan: I can use slimv just fine 2015-10-26T00:30:09Z troydm: akkad: and emacs is not exactly common lisp too 2015-10-26T00:30:17Z troydm: akkad: elisp != common lisp 2015-10-26T00:30:35Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:30:58Z cpc26: vim is false economy 2015-10-26T00:31:50Z troydm: cpc26: what is false about it? 2015-10-26T00:32:13Z cpc26: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_economy 2015-10-26T00:32:16Z akkad: and lisp != common lisp 2015-10-26T00:32:17Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:32:52Z cpc26: Bill Joy even stopped using it for Emacs then Interleaf 2015-10-26T00:33:16Z cpc26: vim lacks depth 2015-10-26T00:33:31Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:33:44Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:34:19Z cpc26: plus the author even abandoned it - he wrote it for editing over a modem, a modem connection that often dropped 2015-10-26T00:34:41Z akkad: bill joy used ed(1) no? 2015-10-26T00:35:00Z papachan: cpc26: who is vim's inventor? 2015-10-26T00:35:05Z cpc26: Bill Joy 2015-10-26T00:35:10Z cpc26: well VI 2015-10-26T00:35:23Z snv1: Both emacs and vim are horrible and can never replace a visual studio like IDE. 2015-10-26T00:35:34Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:35:37Z troydm: I sense that Church of Emacs is stronger here 2015-10-26T00:36:15Z troydm: I use vim for almost all my editing and I'm quite happy about it 2015-10-26T00:36:19Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:36:29Z cpc26: Maybe but could you be happier? 2015-10-26T00:36:41Z troydm: cpc26: I doubt it 2015-10-26T00:36:44Z cpc26: there is a mode for VI users 2015-10-26T00:36:49Z jesseman: Paul Graham edits lisp with vi 2015-10-26T00:36:56Z cpc26: no he doesn't 2015-10-26T00:37:06Z cpc26: that is just silly 2015-10-26T00:37:13Z snv1: the best lisp IDE is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoLISP 2015-10-26T00:37:55Z cpc26: omg no 2015-10-26T00:37:58Z cpc26: .NET 2015-10-26T00:38:15Z cpc26: AutoLisp was dumped years ago 2015-10-26T00:38:23Z cpc26: like maybe people use it 2015-10-26T00:38:31Z cpc26: but they sold out long ago 2015-10-26T00:38:44Z snv1: somebody should convince Autodesk to release AutoLisp as a standalone package. 2015-10-26T00:39:00Z cpc26: why we have SBCL 2015-10-26T00:39:03Z snv1: i.e. open sourcing it can potentially boost its popularity 2015-10-26T00:39:28Z cpc26: it is a near monopoly 2015-10-26T00:39:31Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:40:28Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-26T00:40:44Z troydm: I kinda like Clojure, it's main disadvantage and advantage at the same time is JVM ecosystem 2015-10-26T00:41:20Z troydm: but I like were more newly projects are going to like Pixie 2015-10-26T00:41:21Z cpc26: it was written for people who needed to work in the JVM so they could use a lisp under the radar - if you can write lisp you would use CL 2015-10-26T00:42:12Z cpc26: you can use zippers in CL - clojure has no real advantage when you have an enlightened employer or you own means 2015-10-26T00:42:15Z troydm: cpc26: not rly, the most probably biggest advantage over cl is builtin vectors and maps syntax 2015-10-26T00:42:41Z cpc26: all of that is commentary once you consider that horrible object model 2015-10-26T00:42:58Z cpc26: but if you have no choice and can't use ABCL 2015-10-26T00:43:07Z cpc26: or even KAWA 2015-10-26T00:43:15Z troydm: so you are saying that CL is better? 2015-10-26T00:43:24Z cpc26: that is a fact 2015-10-26T00:43:34Z troydm: and only because of CLOS? 2015-10-26T00:43:55Z cpc26: no - CLOS is nice 2015-10-26T00:43:58Z troydm: I do agree on SBCL performance part 2015-10-26T00:44:08Z troydm: it is way better than Java 2015-10-26T00:44:10Z troydm: but still 2015-10-26T00:44:28Z cpc26: I do not think Hickey ever said Clojure was better in fact I heard him say it was not 2015-10-26T00:44:58Z cpc26: yeah Clojure is a better Java 2015-10-26T00:44:59Z troydm: there are lots of nice things in Clojure that you can't do in CL, especially projects ppl are currently doing 2015-10-26T00:45:30Z troydm: or rather you can but with more effort 2015-10-26T00:45:31Z cpc26: maybe but JVM land is a bit different - CL has a lot of hidden Gems 2015-10-26T00:45:40Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:45:49Z cpc26: CL is a silent world full of treasure 2015-10-26T00:45:58Z cpc26: JVM is a Carnival Harker 2015-10-26T00:46:18Z troydm: cpc26: that silence is sometimes on par with obscurity 2015-10-26T00:46:32Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:46:52Z cpc26: not really - it comes with experience and reading 2015-10-26T00:47:04Z cpc26: you can't miss it if you are looking 2015-10-26T00:47:08Z cpc26: like you are 2015-10-26T00:47:11Z troydm: cpc26: there are some good modern CL projects that ppl are creating, but overall CL is less popular compared with Clojure 2015-10-26T00:47:22Z jsgrant_ quit (Quit: jsgrant_) 2015-10-26T00:47:27Z troydm: hence less projects 2015-10-26T00:47:33Z cpc26: maybe but that depends on the audience 2015-10-26T00:47:42Z troydm: less already created solutions that you can reuse 2015-10-26T00:47:49Z cpc26: some project just exists for themselves 2015-10-26T00:48:17Z cpc26: maybe but I never look far to get what I want done and I JVM/Java roo 2015-10-26T00:48:21Z cpc26: s/roo/too 2015-10-26T00:48:40Z cpc26: it will grow on you 2015-10-26T00:48:47Z troydm: honestly I like Scheme better than CL 2015-10-26T00:48:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:48:56Z cpc26: CL is nice it has less barriers 2015-10-26T00:48:59Z Cortex quit 2015-10-26T00:49:05Z troydm: it has that kind of general sense that CL seems lacking 2015-10-26T00:49:11Z cpc26: guile/scheme has its place 2015-10-26T00:49:14Z troydm: especially on function naming 2015-10-26T00:49:27Z troydm: Clojure has it too 2015-10-26T00:50:28Z troydm: also good thing there are some really nice performance oriented Scheme implementations that produce native binaries that could rival SBCL 2015-10-26T00:50:38Z troydm: like Chicken and Gambit 2015-10-26T00:51:06Z troydm: Racket is good too but it's JIT is still slower than natively compiled Scheme to C binary 2015-10-26T00:51:26Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:51:45Z cpc26: those produce C while SBCL is a native compiler 2015-10-26T00:52:09Z troydm: I like what Clasp is going too, since it's leveraing LLVM infrastructure with it's massive optiminzing JIT compiler 2015-10-26T00:52:15Z cpc26: python is pretty performant 2015-10-26T00:52:42Z troydm: cpc26: I know SBCL is pretty much king of Lisp performance for now 2015-10-26T00:53:16Z troydm: but this might change in the future especially with Pixie's RPython backend 2015-10-26T00:54:13Z cpc26: IDK about that python the SBCL python native compiler will be hard to beat plus you can just fix it if you need to 2015-10-26T00:54:56Z troydm: https://attractivechaos.github.io/plb/ 2015-10-26T00:55:14Z troydm: Python is still dynamic language, and hence it's way slower than any compiled one is 2015-10-26T00:56:29Z troydm: PyPy toolchain is trying to change that and their direction is good, but they will still be always slower than any native compiled ones 2015-10-26T00:57:25Z cpc26: yeah but python is a bad language when you have a choice 2015-10-26T00:57:40Z troydm: on the other hand projects like this https://shedskin.github.io/ have great potential if given enough time and money to mature 2015-10-26T00:58:19Z cpc26: you can make a standalone with sbcl and others? 2015-10-26T00:58:44Z troydm: cpc26: there is no such thing as bad language, each and every language serves a purpose and given enough tooling can be used to achive pretty much anything 2015-10-26T00:58:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-26T00:59:19Z nyef: troydm: Does this include INTERCAL, BrainF***, and Befunge? 2015-10-26T00:59:21Z troydm: cpc26: yeah you can create a standalone using SBCL, it's massive binary file but it's a standalone 2015-10-26T00:59:35Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T00:59:46Z troydm: nyef: no I don't count exoteric languages as languages as those are made for fan and not for business 2015-10-26T00:59:49Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T00:59:57Z troydm: *fun* 2015-10-26T01:00:10Z hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-26T01:00:20Z cpc26: no, Guido does not agree with common notions of CS and Python is about 400x slower than anything else - Python is a great candidate for "Bad Languages" 2015-10-26T01:00:31Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:01:10Z cpc26: Most Languages are vendor entanglements or by-products of CS studies 2015-10-26T01:01:15Z troydm: cpc26: according to my knowledge Python outperforms Ruby on pretty much any kind of benchmark 2015-10-26T01:02:24Z cpc26: IDK I gave up on ruby a long time ago 2015-10-26T01:02:51Z cpc26: without RoR it would have never been anything 2015-10-26T01:03:31Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:05:20Z cpc26: You are searching for a better way to solve problems, well CL is it. Ruby does not even have macros... 2015-10-26T01:05:32Z cpc26: You can grow into CL - you will like it 2015-10-26T01:05:41Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:05:43Z cpc26: even if you use VIM 2015-10-26T01:05:48Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T01:07:01Z White_Flame: Python and Ruby are languages borne of convenience, where irregularity causes nuisances 2015-10-26T01:07:23Z White_Flame: CL is borne of lessons learned from actual industrial use 2015-10-26T01:07:38Z cpc26: Python came from some distributed processing research and then it was co-opted? 2015-10-26T01:07:39Z White_Flame: (and politics between them, and a time crunch to get the standard out, but still ;) ) 2015-10-26T01:07:47Z cpc26: I agree on the CL 2015-10-26T01:08:07Z cpc26: Ruby was just - who knows why that happened 2015-10-26T01:08:27Z White_Flame: it's Perl made slightly more accessible 2015-10-26T01:08:28Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:08:39Z cpc26: yeah I buy that 2015-10-26T01:08:58Z cpc26: but we all knew perl already 2015-10-26T01:09:09Z cpc26: PCRE was all we really needed 2015-10-26T01:09:15Z White_Flame had it on the list of technologies not to bother learning 2015-10-26T01:09:21Z White_Flame: along with win32 and x11 2015-10-26T01:10:13Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:10:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:11:12Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-26T01:13:39Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:14:06Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T01:14:43Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:15:20Z hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-26T01:16:51Z cpc26: so troydm, you may be new to #lisp, so I want to mention this is a _very_ serious channel during business hours and the weekdays - this has _always_ turned new CL people away - #lispcafe is where the cahts happen 2015-10-26T01:17:14Z White_Flame: and there's ##lisp for the whole Lisp family, not just Common Lisp 2015-10-26T01:17:21Z cpc26: people freak out when we have conversations like this any other time - in fact they still would if they are not asleep 2015-10-26T01:17:26Z troydm: I'm not entirely new to CL, I've used it from time to time 2015-10-26T01:17:51Z cpc26: cool - jsut saying, I have seen things get ugly over misunderstandings on this channel 2015-10-26T01:18:06Z troydm: ic 2015-10-26T01:18:10Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:18:30Z cpc26: nice people just this is a a "serious business" channel 2015-10-26T01:18:48Z cpc26: #lispcafe - nobody cares 2015-10-26T01:22:58Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:23:14Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:25:59Z axion: i messed up and started a very long loop printing a lot of data. how can i abort slime repl? 2015-10-26T01:25:59Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:26:51Z Bike: C-c C-c 2015-10-26T01:27:27Z axion: Bike: yeah i tried that and it took a few minutes to register. now everything is okay except repl is VERY slow and almost unresponsive. anyway to fix without killing my image? 2015-10-26T01:27:50Z Zhivago: cpc26: Please talk less. 2015-10-26T01:28:10Z cpc26: I will 2015-10-26T01:28:14Z cpc26: thanks 2015-10-26T01:28:21Z Zhivago: You're welcome. 2015-10-26T01:28:23Z Bike: axion: that's more likely a slowness in the image than in the repl. but have you tried clearing it? C-c M-o 2015-10-26T01:28:28Z cpc26: done for the year 2015-10-26T01:28:32Z cpc26 quit 2015-10-26T01:29:04Z axion: Bike: that fixed it thanks. second day with emacs here. appreciate it 2015-10-26T01:29:34Z Bike: oh, good. 2015-10-26T01:30:29Z axion: i am trying to get the hang of basic stuff...7 years with VIM/slimv 2015-10-26T01:32:38Z cmoneylulz joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:33:18Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:35:11Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:35:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:42:06Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T01:42:24Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:47:12Z mbrock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:47:17Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:48:04Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:48:10Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:48:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T01:48:47Z cpc26 left #lisp 2015-10-26T01:48:58Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:49:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:49:40Z heddwch is now known as sammwch 2015-10-26T01:49:51Z sammwch is now known as heddwch 2015-10-26T01:49:58Z heddwch is now known as porkmonger 2015-10-26T01:50:35Z porkmonger is now known as heddwch 2015-10-26T01:51:29Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-26T01:51:29Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T01:51:59Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-26T01:52:06Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T01:52:30Z wjiang_laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:52:38Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T01:52:57Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:55:17Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:56:51Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:57:06Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-10-26T01:59:03Z heddwch is now known as abcdefghijabcdef 2015-10-26T01:59:17Z abcdefghijabcdef is now known as heddwch 2015-10-26T02:03:29Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:03:29Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:03:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T02:05:07Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:05:09Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:05:39Z segmond joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:05:57Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-26T02:07:22Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-26T02:09:11Z wjiang_laptop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:10:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:11:38Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T02:11:57Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:13:35Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:13:59Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:16:10Z russell-1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:16:37Z zabriskie quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-26T02:16:58Z russell-- joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:17:21Z russell-- is now known as Guest82399 2015-10-26T02:19:25Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:24:31Z phryk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:27:16Z loke joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:27:51Z Niac___ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:29:46Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:30:01Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:34:19Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T02:34:23Z cmoneylulz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T02:34:28Z Guest82399 is now known as russell--- 2015-10-26T02:34:54Z phryk joined #lisp 2015-10-26T02:35:44Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T03:06:11Z ajf-: what's "car" ? 2015-10-26T03:09:03Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T03:10:12Z jason_m: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR 2015-10-26T03:10:36Z jlarocco_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T03:11:10Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-26T03:14:00Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T03:14:31Z nyef: clhs car 2015-10-26T03:14:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 2015-10-26T03:16:05Z cpc26: M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup 2015-10-26T03:16:57Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:17:24Z cpc26 left #lisp 2015-10-26T03:17:35Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:18:19Z nicdev joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:20:51Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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And, if so, is it freely available. 2015-10-26T03:24:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Otherwise, is there a reliable free alternative? 2015-10-26T03:25:02Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:29:19Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:30:05Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-26T03:31:46Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:32:03Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-26T03:32:13Z cpc26: http://www.cliki.net/objectstore 2015-10-26T03:32:24Z housel joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:32:52Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T03:33:02Z cpc26: positive Allegrocahce only works with Frantz 2015-10-26T03:33:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: cpc26: I've been going through that for the last hour or so 2015-10-26T03:33:14Z cpc26: ahh ok 2015-10-26T03:33:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's hard for me to judge when a project is inactive because it's good enough and when it's abandoned. 2015-10-26T03:34:18Z cpc26: I have used Elephant - check your backend that is usually where it can be weak - last was the berkelyDB was having issues - ymmv 2015-10-26T03:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I have lots of experience with BerkeleyDB :) 2015-10-26T03:35:51Z cpc26: looking @ quicklisp seems it is rather current 2015-10-26T03:36:23Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T03:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll go with Elephant + SQLite . . . 2015-10-26T03:37:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:43:46Z axion: if i write a file with with-open-file containing unicode characters, how come it only displays correctly with `cat` in a terminal. loading the file with say a web browser produces garbage? 2015-10-26T03:45:01Z nyef: axion: Your web browser is, apparently, using the "wrong" character encoding. 2015-10-26T03:45:41Z axion: i'm not transporting it over http, just opening the file locally in chrome/firefox/and others i've tried. they all show the same garbage 2015-10-26T03:45:42Z nyef: axion: Welcome to hell, your character encoding for today is EUC-JIS. 2015-10-26T03:46:05Z preacherAKAnd joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:46:44Z nyef: axion: In Chrome, pop up the menu, go to "More tools", then "Encoding". 2015-10-26T03:46:45Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T03:47:09Z nyef: axion: Welcome to hell, your character encoding for today is EBCDIC. 2015-10-26T03:47:34Z nyef: axion: In Firefox, it might be View -> Character Encoding. 2015-10-26T03:47:52Z axion: ah that works, but i want to show the text file to others, so they'd need to have this set. damn 2015-10-26T03:48:40Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:48:46Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:49:02Z nyef: axion: If you're producing an HTML document, you might be able to usefully put the encoding information in the header. If you're putting it on a web server, there may be some other way to control the encoding presented (maybe via a .htaccess file or something?) 2015-10-26T03:49:29Z axion: ok thanks 2015-10-26T03:50:59Z nyef: Seriously, though, character encoding is hell, and the mechanisms for attempting to auto-detect it aren't particularly good. 2015-10-26T03:51:28Z cpc26: fiddlerwoaroof: if that gives you too many issue there is rucksack and _maybe_ manardb - clack uses rucksack 2015-10-26T03:51:38Z nyef: And that's before you run into the data files produced by some maniac who managed to use multiple different encodings, sometimes on the same bloody line! 2015-10-26T03:52:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: cpc26: I tried installing manardb and got an error. Maybe I'll try again if another package doesn't work well enough. 2015-10-26T03:52:48Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:53:37Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T03:53:57Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T03:54:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-26T03:56:21Z cpc26: fiddlerwoaroof: are you on OS X? 2015-10-26T04:01:42Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:03:04Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T04:05:12Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:05:47Z reg_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:06:06Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:07:36Z smokeink quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-26T04:10:05Z tuxbrave joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:10:05Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:10:27Z reg_ is now known as reggy 2015-10-26T04:11:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: cpc26: sort of 2015-10-26T04:11:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forget if I tried installing it on my Linux box or on OSX 2015-10-26T04:12:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, it must have been osx, which is why osicat-posix is complaining about mremap. 2015-10-26T04:13:16Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-26T04:15:50Z fiddlerwoaroof can't figure out how to get a repl in spacemacs 2015-10-26T04:19:54Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:26:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:26:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: think I figured it out, and manardb does install on my linux box :) 2015-10-26T04:26:43Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:28:46Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:29:44Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T04:31:44Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:33:16Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-26T04:34:22Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:35:26Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T04:43:00Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T04:44:05Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:44:34Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:45:00Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-26T04:46:23Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:46:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:47:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-26T04:48:11Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-26T04:49:31Z beach: Seems I always miss the fun. For instance: "Python is still dynamic language, and hence it's way slower than any compiled one is" 2015-10-26T04:49:32Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:50:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2015-10-26T04:51:15Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2015-10-26T04:51:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:54:41Z Zhivago: Ah, another person who can't distinguish between implementation and specification. 2015-10-26T04:54:43Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T04:54:57Z beach: Yes, and who likes to compare apples and oragnes. 2015-10-26T04:55:00Z beach: oranges 2015-10-26T04:55:36Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:56:02Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-26T04:57:16Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T05:00:36Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T05:01:02Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:02:17Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:02:19Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:04:26Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T05:07:17Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:07:20Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:07:52Z Zhivago: Well, apples and oranges are highly comparable. 2015-10-26T05:08:25Z beach: Yeah. I misspoke. Sorry. 2015-10-26T05:10:49Z Zhivago: We need to change the idiom to "Comparing lisps and raddishes". 2015-10-26T05:11:13Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-26T05:11:29Z beach: Good enough for me. 2015-10-26T05:15:42Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T05:16:21Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:18:34Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:21:34Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:26:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: How does one reset a lisp image? 2015-10-26T05:26:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: do you just have to restart it? 2015-10-26T05:27:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:28:11Z JuanDaugherty: reset is unclear 2015-10-26T05:28:27Z JuanDaugherty: the closest thing that comes to mind is a rebuild 2015-10-26T05:28:49Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-26T05:28:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean return it to the state it was in when you first opened the REPL? 2015-10-26T05:29:13Z JuanDaugherty: but yes, in sbcl save lisp and die, and restart with core = the saved image 2015-10-26T05:29:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: My usual practice, when I want to test the startup sequence of my program is just to quit sbcl and start it up again. 2015-10-26T05:29:58Z wjiang_laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:30:23Z JuanDaugherty: so if you haven't saved an image or sources you loose all your work 2015-10-26T05:31:21Z JuanDaugherty: so should always be able to rebuild the image from sources 2015-10-26T05:31:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Image was the wrong word to use, I think 2015-10-26T05:31:54Z JuanDaugherty: it's analogous to the binary in a static compile and link lang 2015-10-26T05:32:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I know. 2015-10-26T05:32:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I'm wondering is if it's possible to clear all definitions that weren't provided by the implementation. 2015-10-26T05:33:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: without restarting the repl 2015-10-26T05:33:22Z resttime: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 2015-10-26T05:33:29Z resttime: Maybe that might be it? 2015-10-26T05:34:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe 2015-10-26T05:34:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: That sounds like it does what I want it to, thanks 2015-10-26T05:35:53Z resttime: No problem, found out about it myself maybe a few days ago. 2015-10-26T05:36:13Z resttime: Before I would just ,sayonara and M-x slime all over again. 2015-10-26T05:36:17Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:36:47Z resttime: s/,sayonara/,sayoonara 2015-10-26T05:36:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:37:06Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:38:05Z resttime: Errr, though I don't think there's really a way without restarting the instance, this just keeps the REPL in SLIME open. 2015-10-26T05:38:15Z resttime: Not sure if helpful in that case. 2015-10-26T05:38:25Z resttime: s/that/that's the 2015-10-26T05:39:08Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:39:23Z wjiang_laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T05:39:33Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:40:00Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T05:40:18Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:40:22Z Wiserlander joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:40:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:42:27Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:43:09Z beach: I am guessing that very few Common Lisp implementations keep the initial state of the process so that it can be reset. 2015-10-26T05:44:26Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:45:32Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Why do you care whether a new process is created? 2015-10-26T05:46:27Z White_Flame: "reset" basically means "return to an older image", ie the one you originally started with. I don't think implementations support reloading an image, discarding current image state 2015-10-26T05:46:56Z White_Flame: but doing the above where you restart the inferior lisp should retain your repl window & history 2015-10-26T05:47:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I don't know how well it works on Emacs, but with slimv, restarting the REPL is a bit of a pain. 2015-10-26T05:47:03Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:47:06Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-10-26T05:47:06Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:48:39Z White_Flame: and out of curiosity, how many implementations allow you to save an image without also exiting? ie, take a snapshot that you might want to revert to, but continue running 2015-10-26T05:48:56Z Wiserlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-26T05:49:51Z White_Flame: seems that things like open file handles and such would be closed on resumption of that image, instead of cleaning stuff up before saving 2015-10-26T05:50:12Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:55:46Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T05:57:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T05:59:44Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T05:59:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: when I quickload your objcl library, a listener window pops up. Is there a way to avoid that? 2015-10-26T06:00:46Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T06:02:22Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:03:30Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:03:34Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-10-26T06:03:34Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:05:54Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:06:09Z Niac_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:06:17Z fugues joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:07:10Z mangooseman joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:07:25Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: An implementation with first class environments could support that functionality. 2015-10-26T06:07:48Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T06:09:32Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T06:09:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:09:57Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:10:59Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-26T06:12:15Z beach: pillton: It will. :) 2015-10-26T06:12:21Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:12:46Z pillton cheers 2015-10-26T06:13:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:14:09Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:14:17Z White_Flame: there'd still be some teardown to switch environments though, considering open sockets and such 2015-10-26T06:14:32Z beach: Yeah, that's messy. 2015-10-26T06:14:50Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:15:05Z White_Flame: then it's settled. write SICL in Haskell, so it's all immutable and resumable ;) 2015-10-26T06:15:53Z beach: Wow, Haskell doesn't use file descriptors of the underlying OS? :) 2015-10-26T06:16:27Z White_Flame: no clue what it does, but in idealized theory, re-reading from a prior state would return the same data. Don't know what to tell you for stepping back before prior writes though ;) 2015-10-26T06:17:02Z mangooseman quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-26T06:18:27Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:18:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:18:54Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:19:30Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:21:21Z fugues left #lisp 2015-10-26T06:23:50Z pillton: Idealized theory? How do you take back what you sent to a remote host? 2015-10-26T06:25:25Z Bike: i don't think haskell tries to guarantee anything like that. because it doesn't make sense. obviously. 2015-10-26T06:30:43Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:31:22Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:37:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T06:41:42Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:42:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T06:46:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T07:03:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:05:38Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T07:06:33Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:09:03Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:14:51Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:15:17Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: In SLIME you can simply type ,restart at the REPL to restart it. 2015-10-26T07:16:23Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-26T07:18:39Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T07:18:39Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T07:20:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:20:25Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:21:42Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:26:04Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:27:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:37:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:37:48Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:38:03Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-26T07:42:26Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T07:42:46Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T07:46:35Z keen________ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:48:43Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T07:48:46Z keen_______ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T07:52:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-26T07:57:39Z duikboot joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:02:32Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:05:02Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:11:57Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T08:12:24Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:12:32Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:14:13Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:14:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:14:56Z duikboot quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T08:15:06Z dbrock quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:20:22Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:20:25Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:20:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:21:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:22:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:24:03Z Guest51183 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:24:10Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:26:59Z tankfeeder joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:29:16Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T08:36:30Z ZabaQ: pixie lisp has an interesting solution for c interop - pretty sure CL could do this (via cffi) as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AjhFZVfB9c&index=24&list=WL 2015-10-26T08:38:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:38:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:43:20Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:43:42Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T08:43:57Z loz quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T08:45:01Z resttime: Shinmera: I studied the internals of the how objects were handled in qtools and it feels quite neat, also made a simple drawing program: http://i.imgur.com/04VTQpW.png 2015-10-26T08:45:13Z resttime: Thanks for writing it 2015-10-26T08:46:09Z resttime: I think without qtools my sloppy code would've become a really bad hodge-podge. 2015-10-26T08:46:32Z Shinmera: Cool 2015-10-26T08:46:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:46:51Z Shinmera: Now I need to continue work on Parasol or you're going to write a painting app before I do :) 2015-10-26T08:47:11Z resttime: Though what I'm curious is how the finalize method can tell when a slot is finializable 2015-10-26T08:47:22Z resttime: I couldn't seem to find out 2015-10-26T08:47:26Z Shinmera: A class slot? 2015-10-26T08:47:58Z Shinmera: You have to tell it in the slot definition through `:finalizable T` 2015-10-26T08:48:12Z Shinmera: By default slots are non-finalizable and subwidget slots (which are created automatically in the back) are. 2015-10-26T08:48:54Z Shinmera: I have to run for an appointment, but I'd love to explain more in about an hour and a half once I'm back if you have further questions. 2015-10-26T08:49:00Z resttime: Ahhhh, so that's what it meant, I thought there was something I was missing that would set the slot to finalzible 2015-10-26T08:49:32Z resttime: Err automatically that is when FINALIZE is called on the object 2015-10-26T08:50:08Z resttime: Shinmera: Alright thanks, and I half to fall asleep though. 2015-10-26T08:50:37Z resttime: Errr I mean I have no further questions for now 2015-10-26T08:51:47Z resttime quit (Quit: zzzzz) 2015-10-26T08:54:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:56:55Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T08:58:49Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T08:59:32Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:04:08Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:12:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:13:27Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:19:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:19:22Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T09:20:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:24:38Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T09:26:08Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T09:26:08Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:26:27Z scymtym__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T09:27:33Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:28:45Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T09:29:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T09:33:04Z Niac_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-26T09:35:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T09:39:18Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:40:39Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:43:45Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T09:47:09Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:49:39Z jesseman joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:53:26Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-26T09:54:16Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:58:37Z anddam: pjb: FYI I built ffcall x86_64 and rebuilt clisp, this time FFI were in fact enabled 2015-10-26T09:58:51Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-26T09:59:17Z anddam: but i'll stick with the online content rather than hosting on my machine since I'm not very used to hunchentoot and lisp programs 2015-10-26T10:00:27Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T10:01:53Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:04:42Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:05:28Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:05:48Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T10:07:24Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:08:02Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:11:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:14:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T10:19:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:20:39Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:22:59Z anddam: running (ql:quickload "llthw") with ccl64 in the llthw repository yields "Error: System "llthw" not found" 2015-10-26T10:23:12Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:23:26Z anddam: the same ql:quickload call with clisp loads the llthw package (that then breaks later) 2015-10-26T10:23:48Z anddam: the llthw repo is https://github.com/LispTO/llthw 2015-10-26T10:24:05Z anddam: why isn't quickload working in ccl? 2015-10-26T10:24:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:24:54Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:24:56Z loke: anddam: llthw is not part of QL 2015-10-26T10:25:57Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:26:57Z WaterOnMars joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:29:00Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:29:08Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:32:37Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:34:15Z DruidGreeneyes: Question: destructuring-bind processes its first argument as a destructuring lambda list 2015-10-26T10:34:39Z DruidGreeneyes: as a result, things like &key or &rest, or '.' are allowed, where they wouldn't be in a normal list 2015-10-26T10:35:08Z Shinmera: ? &key and &rest are just symbols. You can use them whenever you want. '(&key blabla) 2015-10-26T10:35:14Z Shinmera: (list '&key) 2015-10-26T10:35:19Z DruidGreeneyes: yes 2015-10-26T10:35:32Z Shinmera: So they're perfectly allowed in a "normal list". 2015-10-26T10:35:35Z DruidGreeneyes: but (list &key) is is different 2015-10-26T10:35:46Z DruidGreeneyes: than (list '&key) 2015-10-26T10:35:46Z Shinmera: &key is just a symbol. You'd have to bind it first. 2015-10-26T10:36:32Z DruidGreeneyes: arg, words are hard 2015-10-26T10:36:39Z varjag: (setf &key 42) 2015-10-26T10:37:02Z Shinmera: What you're probably confused about is the evaluation semantics. 2015-10-26T10:37:02Z DruidGreeneyes: yes, you're right, but that's beside the point 2015-10-26T10:37:25Z Shinmera: Destructuring-bind is just a macro, so it gets the literal forms, so it can choose which parts to return and which to use before they're evaluated. 2015-10-26T10:37:52Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:38:15Z DruidGreeneyes: I'm trying to work with a list before it gets sent to a destructuring-bind 2015-10-26T10:38:20Z DruidGreeneyes: for example 2015-10-26T10:38:32Z Shinmera: So you want to have the destructuring done at runtime? Why? 2015-10-26T10:39:20Z DruidGreeneyes: (defun do-some-stuff (lis) (do-some-other-stuff-to lis) (destructuring-bind lis [the rest of destructuring-bind])) 2015-10-26T10:39:32Z Shinmera: You can't do that. 2015-10-26T10:39:56Z DruidGreeneyes: I wrote a simple read-macro that takes $(...) and replaces it with (destructuring-bind ...) 2015-10-26T10:39:57Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T10:40:07Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:40:24Z DruidGreeneyes: I'm trying to add functionality so that I can replace '_'s with gensyms, and then (declare (ignore)) them later 2015-10-26T10:40:36Z DruidGreeneyes: so that I can write $(_ . ) and get only the tail of the list 2015-10-26T10:40:48Z DruidGreeneyes: sry 2015-10-26T10:40:55Z DruidGreeneyes: $(_ . var) 2015-10-26T10:41:10Z DruidGreeneyes: and var gets bound to the cdr of the list 2015-10-26T10:41:20Z Shinmera: You can do it much more easily by (defvar _ NIL) 2015-10-26T10:41:37Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:41:40Z Shinmera: Then (destructuring-bind (_ _ _ . foo) ... ) will work just fine. 2015-10-26T10:41:44Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:42:11Z Shinmera: It's not a clean solution by any means but will work. If you want to do it cleanly you would want to write your own destructuring-bind-like macro. 2015-10-26T10:42:28Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:43:15Z DruidGreeneyes: I can't just manipulate that list before I send to destructuring-bind? 2015-10-26T10:43:22Z Shinmera: You can, sure. 2015-10-26T10:43:31Z Shinmera: But you need to write a macro or do it in your reader-macro. 2015-10-26T10:43:33Z White_Flame: "variable _ occurs more than once" [Condition of type SIMPLE_ERROR] 2015-10-26T10:43:47Z White_Flame: both with & without defvar 2015-10-26T10:43:56Z Shinmera: White_Flame: works fine for me on SBCL. 2015-10-26T10:44:08Z White_Flame: works not fine for me on SBCL :-P 2015-10-26T10:44:09Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:44:11Z Shinmera: http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpZMA== 2015-10-26T10:44:21Z shka: if it does not work, try using bind 2015-10-26T10:44:25Z shka: it 2015-10-26T10:44:35Z shka: it is basicly clojure let in common lisp 2015-10-26T10:44:39Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:44:48Z shka: it explicitly supports _ 2015-10-26T10:45:41Z DruidGreeneyes: So it seems like I have to treat that incoming list '(_ _ _ . blah)' or whatever it is as a character stream, and run it through 'read' again 2015-10-26T10:45:43Z DruidGreeneyes: correct? 2015-10-26T10:46:06Z DruidGreeneyes: then I can pull out '_'s and replace with gensyms, which I can ignore later 2015-10-26T10:46:08Z Shinmera: Why do you want a reader macro to begin with? Just write a different destructuring-bind. 2015-10-26T10:46:17Z DruidGreeneyes: Honestly? 2015-10-26T10:46:30Z White_Flame: yeah, (dbind ..) or something will make it a lot shorter to type, too 2015-10-26T10:46:31Z Shinmera: Yes? And if you then still want a reader macro you can have it expand to that. 2015-10-26T10:46:57Z eni joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:47:19Z DruidGreeneyes: I'm still learning the language; writing a new one from scratch seemed like it would be much more difficult than just making minor alterations to the one that already exists and works 2015-10-26T10:47:20Z anddam: loke: but ther'es llthw.lisp in the root folder of the repo, I guessed that's what ql:quickload was loading in clisp 2015-10-26T10:48:08Z DruidGreeneyes: ultimately, what I want to do is be able to put that reader macro in a function definition 2015-10-26T10:48:09Z loke: QL:QUICKLOAD will only load systems that are part of Quicklisp by default. It will also load other systems available to ASDF, so my guess is that you never added that one. 2015-10-26T10:48:13Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: You don't need to write it from scratch. Just wrap around D-B 2015-10-26T10:48:16Z shka: DruidGreeneyes: https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAAahUKEwj5spKI-9_IAhUDjnIKHVAjCuY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fgwkkwg%2Fmetabang-bind&usg=AFQjCNGvcPKiqcfvRQOtVCOr2bIiyo2VWg&sig2=xmEFbYne1Z6aeBlP0owFtQ 2015-10-26T10:48:55Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: Ah. Well that's a different can of beans then. 2015-10-26T10:49:03Z anddam: loke: I most likely haven't,provided I don't even know what ASDF is 2015-10-26T10:49:16Z loke: anddam: Yeah. Very likely then. 2015-10-26T10:49:46Z DruidGreeneyes: I'm sure it is; but it seems like getting the reader macro to work properly is the first step 2015-10-26T10:49:52Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: Generally though I would advise against reader macros unless necessary. 2015-10-26T10:50:18Z Shinmera: I'd instead write a wrapper macro around defun or whatever other thing you want to support. 2015-10-26T10:50:48Z DruidGreeneyes: To satisfy my curiosity: Why? 2015-10-26T10:51:18Z Shinmera: Because reader macros are fragile and it's considered bad style. 2015-10-26T10:51:47Z Shinmera: Just the same as you shouldn't use macros unless necessary you shouldn't use reader-macros unless necessary. 2015-10-26T10:52:02Z anddam: loke: why does it work with clisp tho? 2015-10-26T10:52:02Z DruidGreeneyes: It seems like one way or another I have to tell the reader which bits of the parameter list are [destructuring a list] and which bits are just variables to bind as normal 2015-10-26T10:52:14Z Shinmera: You don't have to tell the reader anything. 2015-10-26T10:52:20Z DruidGreeneyes: tell defun, then 2015-10-26T10:52:22Z Shinmera: That's semantics you're talking about and that belongs in a macro. 2015-10-26T10:52:30Z DruidGreeneyes: either by wrapping it, or rewriting it 2015-10-26T10:57:33Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:58:35Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T10:58:53Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-26T10:59:23Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:01:09Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: here you go. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/CP# 2015-10-26T11:01:17Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:02:14Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T11:02:41Z DruidGreeneyes: Damn; one of these days I'll be that fast. 2015-10-26T11:02:44Z DruidGreeneyes: Thanks! 2015-10-26T11:02:46Z Shinmera: It would be much cleaner if it didn't have to handle the non-NIL cdr case. 2015-10-26T11:03:19Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: Exercise for the reader: Now write a macro that automatically generates a wrapper like this so you can easily wrap defun/lambda/etc. 2015-10-26T11:03:59Z Shinmera scurries off for lunch 2015-10-26T11:05:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:09:18Z DruidGreeneyes: More curiosity: what makes reader macros fragile? 2015-10-26T11:09:50Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T11:09:51Z jesseman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T11:15:02Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T11:16:52Z Shinmera: Since they deal with character streams rather than an AST it's harder to predict all the ways in which it could interact with the rest of the environment. Plus, changing syntax is harder on the human reading the code. 2015-10-26T11:21:54Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:28:23Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:28:23Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:31:06Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:34:07Z ZabaQ_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:35:03Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:37:46Z ZabaQ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T11:38:10Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T11:39:15Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-26T11:39:30Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T11:41:40Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T11:42:31Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-26T11:42:50Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:46:56Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:47:21Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:48:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T11:51:19Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2015-10-26T11:54:58Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T11:57:00Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-26T11:59:07Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:02:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:02:31Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:06:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:09:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:11:26Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:11:35Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:11:54Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-10-26T12:14:35Z CharlesN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T12:14:56Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: Unfortunately, it's not possible without patching ccl. It's ccl (require :cocoa) that opens this listener. On the other hand, once it's loaded, and once you build an application from it, you can build it without the lisp IDE, so it won't appear in your built application. 2015-10-26T12:15:03Z cadadar left #lisp 2015-10-26T12:16:18Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-26T12:19:35Z pjb: axion: If it's an HTML file, write a header in your file. Also, you may try to write a HTTP header in the file, if it's not HTML. Perhaps the browser would interpret it. Some we servers do. Ie. something like: Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8\n\n data ; <- notice, the header is separated from the data by two newlines. Perhaps you need CRLFCRLF here… 2015-10-26T12:21:21Z tankfeeder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T12:22:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:25:38Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T12:27:31Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:28:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:30:11Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: when you ask for a reset, you haven't thought things through. Assuming a POSIX system, you have to take into account, for example, the open/closed files, sockets, etc, the shared memory mapped, the system semaphores, the threads, and all other resources that the program may have allocated or freed since the last program launch. You would then have to "undo" everything (seek back to the original file positions, kill the 2015-10-26T12:30:11Z pjb: threads created, re-create the initial therads killed, the environment variables, etc, etc). THEN, you could call (#_execvpe "/usr/local/src/ccl-1.10-darwinx86/dx86cl64" original-argv original-envp) to "reset" the process, because using exec is still the easiest way to do it, once you've cleaned up the threads and other resources. 2015-10-26T12:30:46Z shka: hi 2015-10-26T12:31:02Z shka: if i take special variable 2015-10-26T12:31:10Z shka: let's say representing my log level 2015-10-26T12:31:36Z shka: and i want to change that log level in some asynchronus task 2015-10-26T12:31:47Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:32:27Z shka: can i simply wrap this task in function that will bind variable and than execute on my thread? 2015-10-26T12:32:50Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:33:02Z shka: my understanding is that lisp will try to find binding for variable on the call stack 2015-10-26T12:33:08Z shka: is that correct? 2015-10-26T12:33:34Z pjb: My point is that a lot of people ask dumb questions because they don't know what a unix or posix system is. :-( 2015-10-26T12:33:46Z sellout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:34:20Z pjb: shka: (let ((*log-level* 42)) (f)) will make a binding that is visible only in the current thread, on normal implementations. 2015-10-26T12:34:33Z sellout joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:34:45Z shka: pjb: thanks for the answer, that's what i thought 2015-10-26T12:34:48Z pjb: shka: you can also use the :initial-bindings parameter of bt:make-thread. 2015-10-26T12:35:02Z shka: oh, that's kinda cool 2015-10-26T12:35:40Z shka: pjb: are you aware of some unusual implementations? 2015-10-26T12:35:43Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:35:44Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:35:46Z ryu0: pjb: really? Lisp programmers don't know anything about POSIX? 2015-10-26T12:35:59Z shka: iirc there is no threads standards in cl 2015-10-26T12:36:00Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:36:29Z shka: so i'm not sure how strong i can bet on this behavior 2015-10-26T12:36:32Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:37:05Z shka: ryu0: substitute Lisp with Web 2015-10-26T12:37:28Z shka: there are people who never, ever touched system level progamming 2015-10-26T12:38:20Z shka: i don't see why this has to be different for lisp programmers 2015-10-26T12:39:08Z pjb: ryu0: for example, fiddlerwoaroof. 2015-10-26T12:39:09Z WaterOnMars quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-26T12:39:11Z shka: i can imagine person who decided that "Python is just stupid, but CL seems to be rather stable. I should try that!" 2015-10-26T12:39:36Z pjb: shka: no, I don't know any CL implementation being dead wrong on the handling of specials with threads. ;-) 2015-10-26T12:39:54Z shka: pjb: good :-) 2015-10-26T12:40:20Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:40:29Z pjb: shka: Bordeaux-threads makes some guarantees. Perhaps not very strong, it depends on the underlying implementation, but let's say that the implementations supported by bordeaux-threads have good enough thread support. 2015-10-26T12:40:31Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:40:41Z ryu0: pjb: jeez. i know POSIX fairly well, having used the C APIs for some years. i'm just now learning CL. 2015-10-26T12:40:49Z shka: pjb: yes, I noticed 2015-10-26T12:41:05Z shka: i'm really glad that we have bt 2015-10-26T12:41:22Z shka: and lparallel for that matter 2015-10-26T12:41:33Z pjb: shka: Not doing system level programming doesn't mean that you shouldn't have had a semester about the unix kernel structure and workings. Just like being an accountant doesn't mean that you spend four years doing physics and chemistry. 2015-10-26T12:41:56Z ryu0: i thought CL would be a good introduction to functional and dynamic typing. 2015-10-26T12:42:07Z pjb: ryu0: good for you, you might avoid losing time asking dumb questions ;-) 2015-10-26T12:42:13Z ryu0: plus, it's a stable language. 2015-10-26T12:42:20Z shka: pjb: I was not getting in the region of what "should" and "should not" be 2015-10-26T12:42:25Z shka: it is just how it is 2015-10-26T12:42:42Z ryu0: i like my languages fairly stable. it seems like the popular languages tend to be more volatile. 2015-10-26T12:42:55Z shka: python *cough* 2015-10-26T12:43:22Z pjb: anddam: quicklisp uses asdf to load system. To be able to quickload a system you have downloaded outside of quicklisp, you can either add the directory where this asdf file lies to the asdf:*central-registry* list, or put this system directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/. 2015-10-26T12:43:30Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:44:10Z ryu0: shka: i work with python, but nothing serious. i can't stand the idea of having to rewrite my code sometime later due to changes in the core language. 2015-10-26T12:45:59Z shka: ryu0: well, good part about cl? Stable, reasonable implementations, practical enviorment, excelent handbooks, quality standard, usefull features, acceptable performance. Bad part: hard to get job, not everything avaible as a library. 2015-10-26T12:46:05Z shka: ah, btw 2015-10-26T12:46:13Z shka: ryu0: common lisp is not exactly functional 2015-10-26T12:46:33Z shka: it is multiparadgim 2015-10-26T12:46:40Z shka: but you can pretend it is functional 2015-10-26T12:46:52Z shka: this approach works well 2015-10-26T12:46:57Z shka: ok, be off 2015-10-26T12:47:47Z shka: ryu0: have fun 2015-10-26T12:47:53Z shka: :-) 2015-10-26T12:49:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:49:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:53:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:55:10Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:55:27Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T12:56:42Z Big_G joined #lisp 2015-10-26T12:57:22Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:00:11Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T13:00:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:05:18Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:06:01Z anddam: pjb: I see, but given that I didn't any of those why isn't (ql:quickload 'llthw) complaining in clisp? 2015-10-26T13:06:15Z anddam: I didn't *do* 2015-10-26T13:06:23Z jfe joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:06:24Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T13:08:22Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:08:39Z svetlyak40wt quit 2015-10-26T13:08:40Z pjb: anddam: check asdf:*central-registry* perhaps it doesn't contain the same paths in the different implementations. 2015-10-26T13:10:26Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T13:10:51Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:11:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:11:40Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:12:39Z loke joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:12:58Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:15:43Z anddam: oh it is, I was trying to follow XDG specifications and mistyped 2015-10-26T13:15:59Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:16:16Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-26T13:17:40Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:19:52Z jfe: hey all. are there any documented guidelines for write macros? for example, the defgeneric macro takes a (:documentation ...) parameter, and a decision had to be made as to whether it was its own sexpr or whether it would just look like a key (i.e. (defgeneric :documentation "my doc" ...)). 2015-10-26T13:20:36Z jfe: i'm also wondering why ':documentation' is used instead of just 'documentation'. 2015-10-26T13:21:14Z jfe: s/write/writing/ 2015-10-26T13:23:37Z eudoxia: jfe: well, defgeneric also takes a method option that takes multiple parameters (lambda list and method body), so that's wrapped in a sexp: (:method ) 2015-10-26T13:23:57Z eudoxia: so, for consistency, documentation is wrapped in (:documentation ) 2015-10-26T13:24:52Z eudoxia: a similar thing happens with defclass where you have (:documentation ), (:default-initargs <:key value>*) 2015-10-26T13:26:19Z anddam: can the same quickload installation work with both clisp and ccl? 2015-10-26T13:27:11Z anddam: i have the same (let ((quicklisp-init (merge-pathnames ".local/share/quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)))) 2015-10-26T13:28:20Z anddam: in both .clisprc.lisp and .ccl-init.lisp in home dir and on first start on clisp (I installed in ccl) I got several 2015-10-26T13:28:50Z anddam: WARNING: DEFGENERIC: redefining function SYSTEM-INDEX-URL in /Users/me/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49-unix-x86_64/Users/me/.local/share/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.fas, was defined in top-level 2015-10-26T13:31:10Z anddam: pjb: ccl has a few little differencies from clisp, I cannot use 'quicklisp.lisp as argument to load, I have to use two double quotes 2015-10-26T13:31:26Z anddam: also there's no tab completion and most importantly there's no readline support, I have to use rlwrap 2015-10-26T13:31:40Z anddam: it may be a matter of habit but I don't like it much (yet) 2015-10-26T13:34:14Z lambda-smith joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:34:54Z pjb: anddam: nobody uses rlwrap, since we all use slime/swank ;-) 2015-10-26T13:35:12Z pjb: anddam: but otherwise, yes, if you want to use it in a terminal without emacs, use rlwrap. 2015-10-26T13:36:30Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T13:38:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T13:38:14Z ebrasca quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-26T13:38:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:39:03Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:42:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:42:50Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:42:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:42:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: the cocoa tutorial doesn't seem to work http://paste.lisp.org/+3DIZ 2015-10-26T13:44:23Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:44:24Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T13:44:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:46:56Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T13:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I see why, should there be an @ at line 194 before the string? 2015-10-26T13:48:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/objcl/howto.lisp#L194 2015-10-26T13:48:30Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T13:49:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that fixes it. 2015-10-26T13:49:23Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, you want to pass an Objective-C string. Normally: [*mw* setTitle:@"Hello World"] 2015-10-26T13:50:21Z pjb: However, @"" produces NSStrings that for the moment cannot be saved in an image, so if you plan to write a program that will be saved in an image (eg. build-application), you would have to convert the string at runtime instead, writing [*mw* setTitle:(objcl:objc-string "Hello World")] 2015-10-26T13:50:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Okk 2015-10-26T13:52:20Z Guest51183 is now known as attila_lendvai 2015-10-26T13:53:36Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:54:08Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T13:54:52Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:56:04Z cpc26 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T13:56:07Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:56:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T13:57:08Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-26T13:58:38Z anddam: pjb: also the fact that i cannot close the repl by hitting ^D once is a bit uncomfortable 2015-10-26T13:58:55Z anddam: but maybe that's still due to the fact that I'm not using slime 2015-10-26T13:58:59Z anddam: (actually slimv) 2015-10-26T14:00:14Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-10-26T14:00:50Z Shinmera: Hello nyef. 2015-10-26T14:01:14Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:01:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:02:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T14:02:49Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T14:04:24Z jfe: i'm trying to define a macro that takes the body of an assoc list and returns an assoc list, e.g. (my-macro (:a 5) (:b 6) (:c 7)) -> ((:a 5) (:b 6) (:c 7)). can someone give me a hint for how to do this? 2015-10-26T14:04:54Z pjb: (defmacro my-macro (&rest alist) `',alist) 2015-10-26T14:05:28Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:05:29Z Xach: jfe: macros usually return code. if you want data, you may want to return code that makes the data. 2015-10-26T14:06:30Z anddam: pjb: still odd, same asdf:*central-registry*, that is ~/.local/share/quicklisp/quicklisp/, yet ccl won't run (ql:quickload "llthw") while clisp does 2015-10-26T14:06:49Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:06:51Z jfe: good point. that's what i was struggling with; how to get a macro to return data. 2015-10-26T14:07:20Z pjb: Where is llthw.lisp? 2015-10-26T14:07:31Z jfe: pjb: thanks, that works. but i'm having trouble deconstructing what exactly `',alist is doing. 2015-10-26T14:07:41Z pjb: jfe: (list 'quote alist) 2015-10-26T14:08:09Z pjb: (defmacro my-macro (&rest alist) (list 'quote alist)) 2015-10-26T14:08:57Z jfe: ahhh i see. i have much to learn about macros :) 2015-10-26T14:09:40Z anddam: pjb: in the root of the repo, https://github.com/LispTO/llthw 2015-10-26T14:09:52Z anddam: I'm trying to manually do what run-llthw.lisp does 2015-10-26T14:11:08Z pjb: anddam: you should put this llthw directory in …/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2015-10-26T14:11:37Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T14:11:40Z pjb: I assume ~/.local/share/quicklisp/local-projects/llthw 2015-10-26T14:12:13Z pjb: given ~/.local/share/quicklisp/setup.lisp 2015-10-26T14:12:33Z anddam: that's correct, i'm trying to understand why ql:quickload is working in clisp 2015-10-26T14:12:54Z anddam: because I'm fine with things not working when they are not supposed to, I'm less fine with things working when they're not 2015-10-26T14:12:56Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:12:59Z anddam: (supposed to= 2015-10-26T14:13:21Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-26T14:14:36Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:15:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T14:15:39Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T14:16:40Z Xach: clisp sometimes tries to be friendly and helpful in ways that are only clear after reading the manual 2015-10-26T14:16:50Z Xach: perhaps this is one of those times 2015-10-26T14:17:11Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:17:12Z Xach: i avoid surprises by avoiding clisp, except in emergencies 2015-10-26T14:18:59Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T14:20:10Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T14:21:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T14:21:13Z lambda-smith quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-26T14:24:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:27:25Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:33:01Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:33:40Z anddam: I see 2015-10-26T14:38:28Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-10-26T14:41:19Z Big_G quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T14:45:53Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:52:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:52:56Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:53:22Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-26T14:54:19Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T14:58:18Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:00:04Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:09:00Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:11:55Z DruidGreeneyes quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-26T15:14:31Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:16:20Z zyoung_ is now known as zyoung 2015-10-26T15:17:49Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:17:50Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-26T15:17:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:20:15Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:20:46Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T15:28:27Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:31:01Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:33:04Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:34:07Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:34:50Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:36:19Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T15:36:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:40:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:40:54Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:42:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:42:48Z samlamamma joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:43:34Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:46:41Z dTal: it's infuriating how often I find academic papers with interesting new takes on software or programming languages, and no source release even though it clearly took a bunch of work 2015-10-26T15:47:08Z dTal: it's weird, it's like once they get published they don't care what happens to all that effort 2015-10-26T15:47:59Z dTal: it happens so often I feel confident saying something is broken about that system 2015-10-26T15:48:01Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:48:11Z tuxbrave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:48:15Z zwdr: it feels like there is so much cool stuff about computing around, but people still use almost-shitty solutions :s 2015-10-26T15:49:03Z samlamamma: zwdr: I think what you're feeling is called 'pretension' 2015-10-26T15:49:14Z samlamamma: Though I don't know if that's an actual word or not 2015-10-26T15:49:32Z dTal: I think this effect is partly responsible - there's no efficient pipeline from the universities where all the exciting stuff happens, so we get to hear about all the cool stuff but end up using stuff written by people who don't know what they are doing 2015-10-26T15:50:00Z dTal: (I'm sure there's cool stuff in companies too but getting your hands onthat is a lost cause) 2015-10-26T15:51:20Z dTal: if anything the universities might be stealing talent - someone who would otherwise be bored enough to write something novel and release it as open source, now writes something novel and writes a paper on it 2015-10-26T15:52:05Z dTal: my trigger for this rant: http://www.cs.trinity.edu/~jhowland/aprol.paper.pdf 2015-10-26T15:53:32Z dTal: because what is the point of making a new language if you don't let people use it? what have you learned? 2015-10-26T15:56:50Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:56:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T15:57:03Z knicklux quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T15:59:28Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-10-26T16:00:05Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-26T16:01:25Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:04:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T16:06:32Z knicklux joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:07:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: dTal: I think sometimes universities require researchers to surrender copyright 2015-10-26T16:07:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or something like that. 2015-10-26T16:07:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: for example: https://ogc.stanford.edu/university-faqs/intellectual-property#q1 2015-10-26T16:08:07Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:08:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: "Title to such inventions is assigned to the University, regardless of the source of funding, if any" 2015-10-26T16:08:48Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:08:49Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T16:10:49Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T16:13:09Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:21:26Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:21:32Z tuxbrave_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:22:38Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:23:14Z ehu1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T16:23:24Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:25:35Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:29:26Z dTal: they might include that by default, but then they don't do anything with the copyright 2015-10-26T16:29:43Z dTal: and if, as a reseacher, you push back, you're quite likely to be granted an exceptioin 2015-10-26T16:29:52Z dTal: it's just that most people don't push back 2015-10-26T16:32:46Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:32:52Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:37:30Z dfox joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:37:30Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:38:06Z myrkraverk: When (error 'foo "some text") throws me into the debugger, can I see what that "some text" is? 2015-10-26T16:38:08Z myrkraverk: in SBCL. 2015-10-26T16:40:05Z samlamamma: You could always check the stack trace 2015-10-26T16:40:39Z Xach: myrkraverk: i don't know the answer, sorry, but i'm curious about the context. How did something like that come about? 2015-10-26T16:40:51Z myrkraverk: Doubt it, though I'm curious. In this case, the "some text" comes from a callback in C, from CFFI. 2015-10-26T16:41:10Z Bike: myrkraverk: ideally, the foo condition has a print method that tells you the text, or failing that an accessor 2015-10-26T16:41:13Z myrkraverk: I'm just testing my error handling callback. 2015-10-26T16:41:35Z samlamamma: myrkraverk: What is it that you want to happen? 2015-10-26T16:41:55Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T16:42:06Z myrkraverk: In this case, I was hoping I wouldn't have to write a condition handler, to see the message. 2015-10-26T16:42:14Z myrkraverk: But I guess I can do that too. 2015-10-26T16:42:34Z Bike: you don't need a handler. you just need a :report for the foo condition. 2015-10-26T16:42:43Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:42:55Z myrkraverk: But how to I get a hold of foo, in the debugger? 2015-10-26T16:43:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it stylistically better to use EQL or CHAR=? 2015-10-26T16:43:24Z samlamamma: myrkraverk: No, when you create an instance of foo, provide the text 2015-10-26T16:43:27Z Bike: you can open up a repl with 'e' in sldb 2015-10-26T16:43:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T16:43:36Z Bike: but the debugger should be printing the condition on top. 2015-10-26T16:43:51Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: if they're chars, char= 2015-10-26T16:43:53Z samlamamma: (error (make-instance 'foo :report (lambda () "some text>))) I believe 2015-10-26T16:43:57Z myrkraverk: It is. Just not the message. Maybe I screwed up in either Lisp or C here. 2015-10-26T16:44:04Z Bike: samlamamma: no 2015-10-26T16:44:20Z samlamamma: Bike: No? 2015-10-26T16:44:26Z Bike: myrkraverk: right, because you didn't define a :report 2015-10-26T16:44:34Z Bike: samlamamma: :report is part of the condition class definition, not the object 2015-10-26T16:44:41Z Bike: clhs define-condition 2015-10-26T16:44:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm 2015-10-26T16:44:52Z Bike: myrkraverk: check the :report part, and alter your definition of foo. 2015-10-26T16:45:53Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:46:10Z myrkraverk: (handler-case (ckytea-read-model k "foo" (callback error-callback)) (ckytea-error (ex) (format t "error: ~a~%" (text ex)))) 2015-10-26T16:46:23Z myrkraverk: That shows the error. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, and just use the debugger. 2015-10-26T16:46:34Z Bike: you don't! you don't have to do any handler-case. 2015-10-26T16:46:53Z Bike: are you listening to me? you just need to change how the condition is printed in the debugger, by altering the condition class's definition. 2015-10-26T16:46:59Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T16:47:19Z myrkraverk: Ah, I see. I'll try that. Thanks. 2015-10-26T16:47:40Z Bike: it's really easy. (define-condition ckytea-error ... :report (lambda (c s) (format s "error: ~a~%" (text c)))) 2015-10-26T16:48:45Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:49:34Z N0viceLive-amd64 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.2/20151015193503]) 2015-10-26T16:50:11Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T16:51:43Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:52:36Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T16:54:02Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T16:54:53Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T16:55:26Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T16:56:51Z myrkraverk: Yup, works. (had some trouble figuring out the exact syntax of the option) 2015-10-26T16:57:43Z Bike: sweet. 2015-10-26T16:58:26Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T16:58:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-26T16:59:03Z samlamamma: myrkraverk: What're you working on? 2015-10-26T16:59:15Z myrkraverk: Bindings for Kytea. 2015-10-26T16:59:40Z myrkraverk: http://www.phontron.com/kytea/index.html 2015-10-26T17:00:06Z samlamamma: That's nice :) 2015-10-26T17:00:12Z redeemed quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:01:14Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Then the compiler knows that any new bindings on *LOGGING* are dynamic 2015-10-26T17:34:08Z shka: function will be compiled as i would be passing lexical scope var? 2015-10-26T17:34:13Z White_Flame: shka: if you do it in a separate file, or on the repl, yeah it likely won't work the way you expect. However, if you put them in the same file, it might be fine 2015-10-26T17:34:31Z shka: that's good to know 2015-10-26T17:35:07Z shka: i would probabbly try to keep all special variables declaration in one file 2015-10-26T17:35:14Z shka: and don't redeclare those on the runtime 2015-10-26T17:35:21Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:35:37Z shka: and load that file before everything else (if possible) 2015-10-26T17:35:55Z White_Flame: I was starting to write up an example on the repl, but the dependency on functions calling probably prevent this situation from occurring 2015-10-26T17:36:02Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:36:06Z White_Flame: ...functions calling each other 2015-10-26T17:36:54Z shka: White_Flame: thanks for answer 2015-10-26T17:37:13Z White_Flame: since (defun show () (print *foo*)) will whine if it's not declared, and (defun bind (*foo*) (show)) will whine if SHOW isn't declared 2015-10-26T17:38:01Z White_Flame: I've never had a problem doing this, and I tend to over-use dynamic bindings for thread-local context. The compiler generally should have your back 2015-10-26T17:38:19Z shka: that's what i expected 2015-10-26T17:38:38Z shka: i'm wonder how else dynamic variables are used 2015-10-26T17:38:57Z White_Flame: there's a ton of them for configuring the lisp printer 2015-10-26T17:38:59Z shka: people around mentioned setting contexts for macros 2015-10-26T17:39:12Z shka: but not sure what they mean about that 2015-10-26T17:39:22Z White_Flame: and things like connectivity libraries (postmodern etc) often store the connection that way too 2015-10-26T17:39:50Z White_Flame: probably (with-foo () ..body..) macros expanding to (let ((*the-foo* ...)) ..body...) 2015-10-26T17:40:22Z shka: reasonable 2015-10-26T17:41:38Z shka: I'm really glad that i finally got clean explanation of this concept 2015-10-26T17:41:52Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T17:41:56Z shka: dynamic scoping does not exist where i'm from 2015-10-26T17:42:12Z White_Flame: right, I first learned about it in CL as well 2015-10-26T17:43:04Z Xach: I learned perl before, which has a similar concept via the "local" syntax. 2015-10-26T17:43:05Z chrnybo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T17:46:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Don't most languages have dynamically scoped global variables? 2015-10-26T17:48:03Z White_Flame: they usually don't let you create bindings. There's 1 global binding 2015-10-26T17:48:03Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:48:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:48:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that makes sense 2015-10-26T17:48:33Z newdan: fiddlerwoaroof: Not AFAIK. Some languages have lexical scoping so you can shadow globals. AFAICT dynamic scoping is pretty uncommon 2015-10-26T17:49:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: OS environment variables are "dynamically scoped", right? 2015-10-26T17:49:06Z varjagg: what software you people use for screencasts, if any? 2015-10-26T17:49:18Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:49:59Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:50:02Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: sort of. In order to create a new binding, you have to create something like a new process afaiui 2015-10-26T17:50:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I was thinking of creating a new process as something like a function call 2015-10-26T17:50:47Z mbrock: in bash scripts, anything you put in parens is a new process, e.g.: export a=1; (export a=2; echo $a); echo $a ==> 2 1 2015-10-26T17:51:36Z mbrock: (well, *sh scripts in general, I guess) 2015-10-26T17:52:57Z Xach: varjagg: quicktime player 2015-10-26T17:53:09Z Shinmera: varjagg: obs 2015-10-26T17:53:30Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:54:19Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:54:30Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:55:03Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:55:48Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T17:56:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:57:16Z nikki93 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-26T17:57:34Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-10-26T17:58:58Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:59:40Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T17:59:49Z chrnybo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T17:59:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:00:15Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:00:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:00:45Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T18:29:41Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:29:54Z ajf-: so two "for" in a loop don't recurse? 2015-10-26T18:30:25Z jasom: ajf-: nope 2015-10-26T18:30:42Z jasom: ajf-: use a nested loop for that 2015-10-26T18:30:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:31:08Z ajf-: the language of languages 2015-10-26T18:31:59Z jasom: And if you want to collect from a nested loop, something like this is idiomatic: (loop for list in list-of-lists nconc (loop for item in list collect (do-something item))) 2015-10-26T18:32:11Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:32:26Z dfox joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:32:36Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:33:11Z jasom: assuming you want flat output, that is 2015-10-26T18:33:22Z musteresel joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:35:55Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:36:33Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:37:48Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T18:38:13Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:38:37Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:39:46Z pjb: dTal: the purpose of the capitalist system is not to provide you with cool produts. It is to increase the capital. Only the monetary value, the profit the system can get from any human activity matters. There's almost no profit in building products based on advanced research. 2015-10-26T18:40:20Z trinitr0n: sup lisptards 2015-10-26T18:40:34Z trinitr0n is about to pick up the boat-anchorest of the boatanchors 2015-10-26T18:40:44Z trinitr0n: two Symbolics 3640s 2015-10-26T18:40:49Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:41:08Z pjb: dTal: see: http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/2756311030/ 2015-10-26T18:43:08Z pjb: dTal: also, notice how this paper is from IBM Corporation, the university and Howland get the money from IBM, and IBM get to say what product if at all they'll develop and sell (with privative code). 2015-10-26T18:43:22Z musteresel: I have some markup format for one of my projects, into which I need to embed lisp code for various kinds of evaluation (producing document content, altering globals). I thought about parsing my markup into an sexp similar to the html generator from Practical Common Lisp, including the embedded lisp code, and then printing that (into some stream) to be able to load (the function) it thereafter. Would you count that as a misuse of load 2015-10-26T18:43:22Z musteresel: Are there better ways? 2015-10-26T18:43:27Z pjb: dTal: now, you can (try to) recreate a medieval university. 2015-10-26T18:43:43Z White_Flame makes a symbolic gesture at trinitr0n in celebration 2015-10-26T18:43:53Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:45:18Z pjb: dTal: when the research is not financed by capitalistic corporations, it's financed by the DARPA or other parts of the militaro-industrial complex. But we can still estimate ourself lucky, since beside weapons, they also provide us with Teflon and TCP/IP. 2015-10-26T18:46:23Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: "Is it stylistically better to use EQL or CHAR=?" it's not a question of style, but of semantics. (eql nil #\a) --> NIL (char= nil #\a) : error. 2015-10-26T18:46:39Z Guest8036 left #lisp 2015-10-26T18:47:20Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T18:50:40Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:51:00Z pjb: dTal: also, notice how 1- the paper is not dated (almost no scientific paper is dated ever!), 2- the latest reference is from 1992, so you could assume this paper dates back from 1993, and at that time, the Internet and the diffusion of software thru the Internet wasn't that developped (even if GNU, emacs or Linux existed already since a few years). In 1989, I obtained GNU emacs on a tape, not thru the Internet. 2015-10-26T18:51:06Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:51:18Z pjb: dTal: so this explains why you may have difficulties to get sources. 2015-10-26T18:52:10Z pjb: At best, they were stored on floppy disks stored in some desk, that were throw away by some Howland girlfriend when she needed to do some spring cleanup. 2015-10-26T18:52:23Z pjb: in the late 90s. 2015-10-26T18:53:46Z ajf-: yes. getting the handle of this 2015-10-26T18:53:54Z ajf-: with my blasting O(4) function 2015-10-26T18:54:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:55:37Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T18:56:05Z White_Flame: I have pretty complete records of all my source code & creations dating back to the 80s. I don't know why people lose their stuff 2015-10-26T18:56:22Z White_Flame: any time you shift storage format, you get like 10x the size 2015-10-26T18:56:26Z Seeq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T18:56:31Z zwdr: well, some of my code I WANT to loose 2015-10-26T18:56:51Z pjb: White_Flame: indeed, once you realize that, you don't lose anything. 2015-10-26T18:57:25Z zwdr: so I'm not reminded of how shit it is 2015-10-26T18:57:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: my question has to do with whether one should always use the most specific applicable function or a more general one. 2015-10-26T18:57:40Z pjb: Now, of course, I have my first program, transcribed from punched tape, written in 1976/06/25. :-) 2015-10-26T18:57:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Either function works in my use case. 2015-10-26T18:58:00Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: depends on what type of data YOU want to handle. 2015-10-26T18:58:20Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: we don't declare types in lisp, but they are constrained or not by the functions we use. 2015-10-26T18:58:34Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T18:58:40Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: so if you use (EQL x #\a) you are saying that the type of the value bound to x is T. 2015-10-26T18:58:53Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: but if you use (char= x #\a) you are saying that it is CHARACTER. 2015-10-26T18:59:11Z Polyphony joined #lisp 2015-10-26T18:59:25Z pjb: In the first case, you cannot have any type error since all lisp objects are of type T. 2015-10-26T19:00:07Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T19:00:20Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-26T19:00:45Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:00:57Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: eg. if you write a function string-split and use char= to split the string when on a char given in parameter, writting CHAR= will impose a sequence or vector of character, while using EQL would allow a sequence or vector of T. Therefore using EQL might be better, if you rename the function split-sequence, and use ELT or MAP instead of AREF. 2015-10-26T19:01:49Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:01:51Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:01:55Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: by choosing generic functions (functions working on multiple types, not necessarily CLOS "generic functions"), the code you write becomes generic, and therefore becomes more reusable, and your programs are therefore shorter and have less bugs. 2015-10-26T19:02:41Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:02:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:02:50Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-26T19:02:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:05:24Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:05:42Z Seeq joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:06:47Z snv1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T19:08:54Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:09:08Z reverse_light quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-26T19:12:48Z tuxbrave__ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:15:02Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T19:15:06Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:15:12Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:15:57Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:16:14Z tuxbrave_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:16:49Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-26T19:19:28Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:20:23Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:20:35Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:20:52Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:21:15Z musteresel quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.2)) 2015-10-26T19:22:33Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:25:10Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:25:18Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:25:54Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:26:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:28:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: of course the flip side of that is that more generic functions can obscure bad data 2015-10-26T19:29:04Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:29:18Z Polyphony quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T19:30:07Z znpy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-26T19:30:27Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:31:25Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:33:50Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:34:20Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T19:34:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:39:35Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:41:20Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: In anycase, it's always GIGO. 2015-10-26T19:42:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, with char=, you get an error which you can decide what to do with. 2015-10-26T19:42:11Z jackdaniel: garbage in garbage out? 2015-10-26T19:42:21Z pjb: yes. 2015-10-26T19:42:38Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:42:45Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: again, it depends on your function. Sometimes it's important to restrict the type on which you work. But more often than not, it just doesn't matter. 2015-10-26T19:43:21Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: for example: (defun fact (x) (check-type x (integer 1)) (if (< 1 x) (* x (fact (1- x))) 1)) is ok. 2015-10-26T19:43:31Z pjb: But it's useless to restrict the type like that. 2015-10-26T19:43:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure 2015-10-26T19:44:12Z pjb: You could instead write: (defun fact (x) (if (< 1 x) (* x (fact (1- x))) 1)) and now: (fact 21/2) #| --> 13749310575/1024 |# (fact 10.3) #| --> 8222263.0 |# etc. 2015-10-26T19:44:28Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T19:44:37Z newdan: Duck typing ftw 2015-10-26T19:44:59Z pjb: not at all. It's type inference. 2015-10-26T19:45:03Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-26T19:45:27Z newdan: pjb: how so? What aspect of CL runtime is inferring the type? 2015-10-26T19:46:13Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:46:25Z White_Flame: duck typing is more of an OO concept 2015-10-26T19:46:30Z White_Flame: not a type concept 2015-10-26T19:46:44Z pjb: newdan: what is the type of the function: (defun fact (x) (if (< 1 x) (* x (fact (1- x))) 1)) ? 2015-10-26T19:46:46Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:46:52Z White_Flame: where the "quacks like a duck" tests involve which methods/fields are on an untyped object 2015-10-26T19:47:01Z pjb: newdan: and of this one? (defun fact (x) (check-type x (integer 1)) (if (< 1 x) (* x (fact (1- x))) 1)) 2015-10-26T19:47:44Z pjb: newdan: from the use of < in the first fucntion, you can INFER that the type of x is REAL. from the use of check-type in the second function, you can INFER the type of x is (INTEGER 1). 2015-10-26T19:47:48Z newdan: In both cases, x is allowed to be whatever doesn't cause the code to crash 2015-10-26T19:47:52Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:48:09Z newdan: pjb: you, the code reader, are inferring. But you are not CL 2015-10-26T19:48:17Z pjb: newdan: from the use of 1- * and fact, you can therefore infer that the first function is (function (real) real) while the second is (function ((integer 1)) (integer 1)) 2015-10-26T19:48:24Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:48:24Z phoe_krk_ is now known as phoe_krk 2015-10-26T19:48:28Z Bicyclidine: implementations generally do do inference. 2015-10-26T19:48:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:48:52Z pjb: newdan: no, when you get a type error, you cannot say that the type that provoques the type error is allowed. 2015-10-26T19:49:13Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:49:18Z newdan: pjb: ...er... afaik that wasn't what I was saying? 2015-10-26T19:49:18Z Bicyclidine: in the compiler. For Speed. it would be silly to avoid getting all the high level information you can. 2015-10-26T19:51:44Z White_Flame: newdan: you did ask "What aspect of CL runtime is inferring the type?" 2015-10-26T19:52:02Z White_Flame: and those are the compiler processes 2015-10-26T19:52:16Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-26T19:53:15Z pjb: newdan: It doesn't matter if it's the compiler or your brain that does the type inferring. Types can be infered, and exist, and if you don't do the inference yourself you will write wrong programs and get errors. 2015-10-26T19:53:16Z newdan: I can see how the implementation can infer the type but I don't see how that's a feature of CL in general. CL must allow some code where the types can't possibly be inferred 2015-10-26T19:53:22Z DruidGreeneyes: Shinmera: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/CR 2015-10-26T19:53:27Z Bicyclidine: you can infer all the types as T :D 2015-10-26T19:53:34Z DruidGreeneyes: I feel a little sheepish 2015-10-26T19:53:36Z DruidGreeneyes: It took me all day 2015-10-26T19:54:05Z White_Flame: newdan: sure, it's an optimization, and not all code can be optimized 2015-10-26T19:54:25Z Bicyclidine: DruidGreeneyes: what is this doing? 2015-10-26T19:54:27Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: Hoh, that's quite a bit of code. 2015-10-26T19:54:46Z DruidGreeneyes: Yes 2015-10-26T19:54:55Z Bicyclidine: process-list isn't tail recursive, cos of the cons 2015-10-26T19:55:02Z DruidGreeneyes: Some of it is because I wanted it to be flexible 2015-10-26T19:55:10Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:55:13Z DruidGreeneyes: Some is because I don't know how to get rid of it yet 2015-10-26T19:55:13Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/CP is the initiator. 2015-10-26T19:55:33Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T19:55:40Z Bicyclidine: ah. i was reading it as doing dynamic binding, whoops. 2015-10-26T19:55:57Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-10-26T19:56:11Z DruidGreeneyes: today I learned how to use macroexpand 2015-10-26T19:56:31Z Shinmera: DruidGreeneyes: I don't have the time to comment on your code right now, but I might do it tomorrow if I can remember. 2015-10-26T19:56:33Z DruidGreeneyes: And that slime's debugging functions are kind of useless for macros 2015-10-26T19:56:51Z Shinmera: What you can do is factor out parts of your macro into functions. 2015-10-26T19:57:03Z Shinmera: Makes it easier to debug and analyse. 2015-10-26T19:58:03Z DruidGreeneyes: I'll work on that tomorrow; most of it's already function-ized, just buried in closures 2015-10-26T19:58:05Z Bicyclidine: (case sym ('_ ...)) isn't right, your code will treat variables named "quote" the same as ones named "_" 2015-10-26T19:58:19Z Bicyclidine: you mean (case sym ((_) ...)) or (case sym (_ ...)) 2015-10-26T19:59:20Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T19:59:22Z DruidGreeneyes: Thanks 2015-10-26T19:59:43Z Bicyclidine: d-bind is clear enough to me, anyway 2015-10-26T19:59:51Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:00:32Z DruidGreeneyes: It looks a little weird without the quote; I keep waiting for sbcl to tell me it isn't defined 2015-10-26T20:00:41Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T20:00:44Z DruidGreeneyes: guess I still don't completely understand how case works :p 2015-10-26T20:01:02Z Bicyclidine: it's because the objects in a case aren't evaluated. 2015-10-26T20:01:16Z DruidGreeneyes: Oh! 2015-10-26T20:01:24Z DruidGreeneyes: *slaps own forehead* duh! 2015-10-26T20:02:01Z Bicyclidine: case trips people up. just so you know in the future, it also compares with EQL, so it won't compare strings as you might expect. 2015-10-26T20:02:13Z DruidGreeneyes: I was just running into that the other day, when I tried to put evaluated code into the keyform 2015-10-26T20:02:19Z DruidGreeneyes: obviously it didn't work 2015-10-26T20:02:27Z DruidGreeneyes: lawl 2015-10-26T20:02:30Z DruidGreeneyes: I remember things, I swear 2015-10-26T20:02:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-10-26T20:02:39Z loke_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T20:02:46Z DruidGreeneyes: Thanks for the tip! 2015-10-26T20:02:53Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T20:03:48Z DruidGreeneyes: IYI, the purpose of d-binding was to build a wrapper around d-bind in order to save space when writing a function 2015-10-26T20:03:58Z dlowe: alexandria:switch is nice if you want case-on-strings 2015-10-26T20:03:59Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:04:05Z dlowe: you can specify the test function, too 2015-10-26T20:05:32Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-26T20:05:39Z DruidGreeneyes: so (d-binding defun my-fun ((_ . tail) foo) ...) will automatically just grab the cdr of its first argument 2015-10-26T20:06:13Z DruidGreeneyes: exercise for the reader, he said 2015-10-26T20:06:34Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:08:05Z DruidGreeneyes: dlowe: thanks 2015-10-26T20:09:31Z pjb: DruidGreeneyes: the easiest way to understand an operator, is to read CLHS, and to implement it: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DJC 2015-10-26T20:10:45Z pjb: corrected: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DJC/1 2015-10-26T20:13:40Z DruidGreeneyes: How much difference does there tend to be between implementations? 2015-10-26T20:14:15Z DruidGreeneyes: I sort of assumed that part of the reason CLHS doesn't just have source up for browsing is because the details are implementation dependent 2015-10-26T20:14:40Z Bicyclidine: in general? lots of differences. but the high level semantics expressed in the CLHS should be the same. 2015-10-26T20:14:46Z Xach: DruidGreeneyes: there is a lot of freedom of implementation. certain types of things things are in practice done the same way. 2015-10-26T20:15:02Z Xach: for example, there's a single LOOP implementation that has been frequently re-used 2015-10-26T20:15:30Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:15:56Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:16:28Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-26T20:16:29Z pjb: for example for case, the implementation could check if all cases are numeric and exclusive, and in a dense range, and then generate code using a vector to jump directly to the right case. For characters, it could use the char-code; for symbols it could use an internal hash value, etc. Therefore the case could be much more optimized than a sequence of tests as in my macro. 2015-10-26T20:16:45Z pjb: But semantically it wouldn't make a difference, only wrt the speed of execution. 2015-10-26T20:17:50Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:19:38Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:20:31Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T20:20:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:22:50Z moei joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:23:09Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:23:28Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:24:07Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:24:23Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:24:57Z DruidGreeneyes: So much to internalize @_@ 2015-10-26T20:25:43Z DruidGreeneyes: But thanks for answering questions 2015-10-26T20:26:00Z blubjr: hi druidgreeneyes 2015-10-26T20:26:12Z DruidGreeneyes: Hello 2015-10-26T20:30:18Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:30:25Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:31:07Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:31:33Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:32:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:32:56Z varjagg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T20:33:06Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-26T20:33:56Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:37:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:41:39Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:45:34Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T20:47:41Z ziocroc quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-26T20:47:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-26T20:47:52Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:50:11Z mfranzwa quit (Quit: mfranzwa) 2015-10-26T20:52:10Z badkins quit 2015-10-26T20:53:09Z jfe quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-26T20:57:36Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-26T20:59:54Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-26T21:02:00Z heddwch is now known as agent_nchambers 2015-10-26T21:02:10Z agent_nchambers is now known as HEDDWCH 2015-10-26T21:02:36Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-26T21:04:43Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-26T21:04:56Z maveneagle quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The gutters were yesterday. Today is /dev/null. 2015-10-26T23:34:50Z Xach: White_Flame: why would you pass around AND as a function? 2015-10-26T23:35:15Z White_Flame: reduce-style usages 2015-10-26T23:35:29Z White_Flame: very rarely 2015-10-26T23:35:30Z pillton: clhs every 2015-10-26T23:35:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 2015-10-26T23:35:31Z nyef: Wouldn't that be #'EVERY 2015-10-26T23:35:35Z nyef: ? 2015-10-26T23:35:44Z White_Flame: right, as I said it's really easy to work around 2015-10-26T23:35:50Z samlamamma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-26T23:35:55Z White_Flame: but the fact that AND is a macro means you can't drop a commonly used "function" there 2015-10-26T23:36:09Z pillton: Next people will be complaining that every evaluates its arguments. 2015-10-26T23:36:57Z White_Flame: there's also been 1 or 2 times in my own code where something simple ended up being a macro, which I forgot about, and tried to pass it 2015-10-26T23:37:06Z White_Flame: in terms of macros I built 2015-10-26T23:37:16Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-26T23:37:24Z Bicyclidine: i don't think it's unreasonable to try to (reduce #'and ...). but making it semantically coherent ends with not-great-ness. 2015-10-26T23:37:31Z White_Flame: right 2015-10-26T23:37:43Z nyef: White_Flame: Oddly enough, most of my macros these days are simple syntactic wrappers around underlying functions. 2015-10-26T23:37:51Z Bicyclidine: kernel lets you pass around fexprs (macro superset, to oversimplify), but its map and reduce still won't work with them. 2015-10-26T23:38:06Z Bicyclidine: or at least map doesn't, i forget reduce 2015-10-26T23:38:29Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-26T23:38:36Z phoe_krk: what is a slime-y way of sending a message to a particular REPL? 2015-10-26T23:38:54Z phoe_krk: like, I have a thread running, I want it to message a particular REPL with something every second to give life signs. 2015-10-26T23:39:09Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2015-10-26T23:39:45Z Bicyclidine: can you rephrase this in terms of emacs and CL instances? 2015-10-26T23:39:46Z pillton: nyef: That has been my experience as well. Macros are what brought me to lisp. I don't write that many now. 2015-10-26T23:41:02Z nyef: For the most part, actually, my macros tend to be binding constructs or toplevelish function-defining things. 2015-10-26T23:41:17Z nyef: Not much point in passing them around. 2015-10-26T23:41:20Z jasom: pillton, nyef macros (outside a few standard patterns like with-foo) to me are like having a parachute on a plane: I don't need it that often, but when I do I'm glad to have it. 2015-10-26T23:43:58Z pillton: jasom: Yes. I have a library which saves about two weeks of my time that relies heavily on declarations. 2015-10-26T23:44:03Z jasom: though they are also good to reify certain patterns. Here "with" is actually a good example as python 2.4 didn't have "with" but there was this awkward pattern with try/finally and a loop you could use to the same effect. If python were lisp, then you could have implemented "with" as a macro. 2015-10-26T23:45:31Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-26T23:48:57Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-26T23:50:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: allowed) 2015-10-26T23:50:05Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-26T23:57:31Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2015-10-26T23:59:42Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:02:28Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157522 <- that's the snippet of my code. How do I replace the multiple slot-value occurrences with variables with setf not changing the *variables*, but the *values*? 2015-10-27T00:02:49Z torpig joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:03:09Z phoe_krk: with a simple (let ...) this failed for me. 2015-10-27T00:03:25Z phoe_krk: I mean, the local variables got setf'd and not the values. 2015-10-27T00:05:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T00:09:17Z phoe_krk: ...this forces me to rethink how these damn accessors work. 2015-10-27T00:10:01Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:10:39Z pillton: clhs with-slots 2015-10-27T00:10:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm 2015-10-27T00:11:00Z phoe_krk: you're a genius 2015-10-27T00:11:02Z phoe_krk: thanks 2015-10-27T00:11:03Z pillton: or more generally 2015-10-27T00:11:10Z pillton: clhs symbol-macrolet 2015-10-27T00:11:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm 2015-10-27T00:11:27Z pillton: Thanks. Feel free to tell my wife. 2015-10-27T00:11:59Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:12:10Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:12:33Z phoe_krk: pillton: if I end up stalking your wife now just to tell her that, I think you wouldn't be too grateful 2015-10-27T00:12:45Z pillton: phoe_krk: I would consider reading this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html. 2015-10-27T00:13:11Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:14:27Z phoe_krk: pillton: you're too late, PCL is the first thing I ended up in 2015-10-27T00:14:59Z phoe_krk: but thanks, now I ended up googling with-slots on that page 2015-10-27T00:17:07Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:20:26Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T00:30:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:31:02Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:32:00Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:32:41Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:36:10Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:36:51Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:37:58Z tifa is now known as m0li 2015-10-27T00:38:39Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:39:11Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T00:46:07Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T00:47:10Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:48:46Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:53:10Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-27T00:54:40Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T00:56:44Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-27T01:00:49Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-27T01:01:23Z add^_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T01:01:41Z add^_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T01:01:59Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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No new Lisp dialects for the past 12 or so hours. 2015-10-27T04:46:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:46:08Z beach: And nobody seem to be confusing languages and implementation, dynamic and interpreted, etc. 2015-10-27T04:48:09Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:48:44Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:55:51Z drmeister: beach: Hi! 2015-10-27T04:55:58Z loke: beach: Any suggestions on how to make Lisp popular by removing the parens? 2015-10-27T04:56:32Z beach: I didn't see any. 2015-10-27T04:56:45Z loke: Then Lisp is truely dead? 2015-10-27T04:56:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:57:02Z reggy: parens are not problem. look at python spaces 2015-10-27T04:57:06Z Zhivago: Replace them with smart-quotes. 2015-10-27T04:57:20Z Zhivago: Then you can use microsoft word as an editor. 2015-10-27T04:57:34Z drmeister: Ugh - I'm having a problem with MACROLET at the top level again - I think this is the third time. cleavir-environment:function-info is being called with a macrolet-environment. 2015-10-27T04:57:57Z loke: http://clochure.org/ seems to be on the right path 2015-10-27T04:58:24Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:58:37Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-27T04:58:56Z loke: beach: So basically, we solve everything by implementing Chlommon Lisp. 2015-10-27T04:59:22Z drmeister: beach: Do you have any idea why a macrolet-environment might be getting passed to cleavir-environment:function-info? 2015-10-27T04:59:27Z drmeister: (macrolet ((mac () `(defmethod x ()))) (mac)) --> 2015-10-27T04:59:30Z beach: loke: Heh! 2015-10-27T04:59:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6TheGtA6/ 2015-10-27T05:00:37Z beach: drmeister: Let me think. 2015-10-27T05:02:52Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir doesn't have any macrolet-environment. 2015-10-27T05:02:59Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T05:03:19Z loke: What about symbol-macrolet? 2015-10-27T05:03:23Z drmeister: No? Then it's one of mine/ 2015-10-27T05:05:33Z beach: Cleavir has an environment called cleavir-env:macro 2015-10-27T05:06:14Z beach: ... and one called cleavir-env:symbol-macro. 2015-10-27T05:07:34Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:08:42Z drmeister: It must be a problem on my end then - I feel like I've fixed this before - I guess I broke it again. 2015-10-27T05:09:36Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:10:09Z beach: That must be it. 2015-10-27T05:10:11Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:14:28Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T05:18:38Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-27T05:19:15Z beach: drmeister: Why do you need a macrolet-environment? 2015-10-27T05:20:04Z drmeister: I'm starring at my code asking myself the same question. 2015-10-27T05:20:31Z drmeister: Evaluating this at the top level: (macrolet ((mac () `(defmethod x ()))) (mac)) 2015-10-27T05:20:36Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:21:08Z drmeister: It tries to compile this: (CLOS::INSTALL-METHOD 'X 'NIL `NIL 'NIL (LAMBDA NIL (DECLARE (LAMBDA-NAME X)) (BLOCK X)) T) in a macrolet-environment. 2015-10-27T05:21:59Z drmeister: It needs the macrolet environment to continue the compilation. 2015-10-27T05:22:03Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T05:22:26Z drmeister: I was doing the compilation with the cclasp compiler - but it can't handle the macrolet-environment 2015-10-27T05:22:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:22:54Z drmeister: So I have to use the bclasp compiler or the interpreter. 2015-10-27T05:23:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-27T05:24:31Z drmeister: Do you see a way out of this. These toplevel macrolet statements always throw me for a loop. 2015-10-27T05:24:53Z drmeister: I have to compile the code in a non-nil lexical environment. 2015-10-27T05:25:38Z beach: Top-level macrolets work fine for me. 2015-10-27T05:26:43Z beach: Does it have anything to do with the EVAL that you wrote with the help of stassats? 2015-10-27T05:26:45Z drmeister: I guess I shouldn't be using my eval for this - 2015-10-27T05:26:59Z drmeister: I don't think it's using that. 2015-10-27T05:27:08Z drmeister: I see EVAL-WITH-ENV on the stack - that's a C++ function. 2015-10-27T05:27:40Z beach: I don't think I can be of any help with those. 2015-10-27T05:29:25Z drmeister: How do you call eval? 2015-10-27T05:29:37Z drmeister: How does your eval work? 2015-10-27T05:30:04Z beach: I don't have a correct EVAL. SICL doesn't exist yet. 2015-10-27T05:30:39Z beach: Mine (incorrectly) always calls the compiler. 2015-10-27T05:31:18Z drmeister: I see - my repl is calling core:eval-with-env - which won't work properly with cclasp. 2015-10-27T05:31:28Z drmeister: I think it needs to call cclasp-eval 2015-10-27T05:31:53Z beach: Sounds messy. 2015-10-27T05:34:17Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-10-27T05:36:23Z drmeister: It looks like I might need to install an *EVAL-WITH-ENV-HOOK* that dispatches to the proper eval when I'm in bclasp or cclasp. 2015-10-27T05:36:56Z drmeister: I've done this for COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE 2015-10-27T05:37:31Z beach: How is it possible that this hasn't worked in the past? 2015-10-27T05:37:38Z beach: It seems so strange to me. 2015-10-27T05:38:01Z drmeister: I suspect that I was compiling things with bclasp when I thought I was compiling with cclasp. 2015-10-27T05:38:16Z beach: So nothing ever worked in the past? 2015-10-27T05:38:27Z drmeister: Because I suspect that I was evaluating things with bclasp when I thought I was evaluating with cclasp. 2015-10-27T05:38:36Z drmeister: No, lots of things worked. 2015-10-27T05:40:21Z drmeister: I'll be the first to admit that things are a bit messy. 2015-10-27T05:41:08Z drmeister: It's a property of the design. Two compilers and switching between them during bootstrapping is problematic. 2015-10-27T05:41:08Z beach: And is that by necessity, or can they be cleaned up? 2015-10-27T05:41:28Z beach: I see. 2015-10-27T05:42:04Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:42:06Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-27T05:42:07Z Octophore is now known as Octophore` 2015-10-27T05:42:37Z drmeister: A couple of days ago I noticed that in my cclasp development environment bclasp was being invoked when I thought cclasp was fully installed. I fixed that and I guess that brought these other problems to light. 2015-10-27T05:42:53Z drmeister: I may have been doing more compilation with bclasp than I realized. 2015-10-27T05:44:23Z drmeister: It looks like the top-level forms at the REPL was being processed by bclasp and then the result was compiled by cclasp. MACROLET doesn't work with that. 2015-10-27T05:44:44Z drmeister: But things like PROGN wouldn't have a problem. 2015-10-27T05:44:45Z beach: That might be a problem, yes. 2015-10-27T05:46:22Z drmeister: The solution may be *eval-with-env-hook* which takes a function that takes a form and an optional environment and evaluates it using either the interpreter/bclasp or cclasp eval functions. 2015-10-27T05:47:03Z drmeister: I'm not sure what to do about debugging environments - especially with cclasp. 2015-10-27T05:47:09Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-27T05:47:23Z drmeister: But debugging in different environments doesn't work now anyway. 2015-10-27T05:47:45Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T05:50:30Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T05:56:39Z drmeister: They don't call this the "programmable programming environment for nothing" 2015-10-27T05:57:21Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-27T05:59:27Z drmeister: It feels a little too programmable at times. 2015-10-27T05:59:58Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-27T06:01:45Z yeticry_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:04:00Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:04:11Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T06:04:16Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:04:54Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:09:17Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:09:23Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:10:12Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:11:10Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-27T06:14:10Z Zhivago: drmeister: The boundaries between the execution models aren't well drawn :( 2015-10-27T06:15:04Z Zhivago: Being able to intertwingle macros with code that the macros execute and have effects maybe apply to the system running them is just horrid. 2015-10-27T06:16:19Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T06:18:44Z drmeister: I don't find that part too bad. My system is a bit complicated because of the way I bootstrap. 2015-10-27T06:19:21Z drmeister: Or I don't fully appreciate the subtleties - I have something that works pretty well. 2015-10-27T06:21:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:22:40Z beach: drmeister: About the messiness, let me ask the question this way: If you were to do Clasp over from scratch, would the same messiness be there? 2015-10-27T06:23:30Z beach: In other words, is the design that causes the messiness also intrinsic, or is it as a result of a design that could have been different? 2015-10-27T06:23:46Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:24:26Z drmeister: I don't know. Probably not as much. 2015-10-27T06:24:58Z drmeister: Working with LLVM, C++ and Cleavir and needing a compiler to run Cleavir - it's not going to be pretty. 2015-10-27T06:25:46Z beach: I guess you didn't realize this when you started, given that you didn't see the need for something like Cleavir in the beginning. 2015-10-27T06:26:20Z drmeister: I didn't - but I didn't realize that LLVM would be so inadequate for a language like Common Lisp. 2015-10-27T06:26:41Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-10-27T06:27:06Z drmeister: You think "compiler writing library" - and - "it generates some of the fasted C/C++ code there is". 2015-10-27T06:27:24Z jackdaniel: hello o/ 2015-10-27T06:27:32Z beach: Hi jackdaniel. 2015-10-27T06:28:03Z beach: drmeister: So what you need is a C++ compiler written in Common Lisp. :) 2015-10-27T06:29:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:30:13Z drmeister: I don't think so, what I like about LLVM is the huge amount of engineering that goes into the backend. 2015-10-27T06:30:14Z beach: I am only half joking. I think such a thing would be way better than GCC or Clang, but I am not interested in C++ so I am not going to write such a thing. 2015-10-27T06:30:38Z beach: What do you mean by the backend in this context? 2015-10-27T06:31:38Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-27T06:33:13Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T06:36:00Z beach: If you mean code optimization and such, then that is exactly my point. Standard compiler optimization techniques are so much easier to implement in Common Lisp. So perhaps the huge amount of engineering is due to the use of inadequate programming languages for the task. 2015-10-27T06:38:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-27T06:44:35Z NaNDude quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T06:44:53Z meiji11 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T06:46:33Z Quadrescence: beach, what about in ML? :D 2015-10-27T06:47:11Z beach: I have never programmed in it. 2015-10-27T06:47:28Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T06:47:49Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:48:13Z beach: As I recall, GCC used to be written in C, but at some point, they started using a garbage collector (Boehm?) rather than the obstack library. Am I remembering this correctly? 2015-10-27T06:48:25Z jackdaniel: yes 2015-10-27T06:48:29Z Quadrescence: beach, Really? I'm a little surprised. :) MLton is a great compiler written in Standard ML. 2015-10-27T06:48:42Z beach: If so, that strongly suggests that to write a compiler, no matter what language, you need a language with automatic memory management. 2015-10-27T06:49:03Z Quadrescence: I would argue any time you have non-trivial object graphs, you should have GC. 2015-10-27T06:49:06Z beach: Quadrescence: I am sure ML is great. 2015-10-27T06:49:24Z beach: Quadrescence: Yes, exactly, and that is the case in a compiler. 2015-10-27T06:49:31Z beach: No matter what language is being compiled. 2015-10-27T06:50:08Z Quadrescence: Right. 2015-10-27T06:50:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:50:25Z beach: Oh, and think how much easier it would be to do the C++ template stuff in Common Lisp. 2015-10-27T06:50:57Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: SLOT-VALUE should be enough to access subwidgets. Note that within any DEFINE-* construct this isn't necessary as the slot should be symbol-macro-bound automatically. 2015-10-27T06:51:28Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: What you might be hitting is that the slot you're trying to access has not yet been initialised. Note that definition order matters for subwidgets. 2015-10-27T06:51:57Z beach: Anyway, time to get to work!. 2015-10-27T06:51:59Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-27T06:52:05Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:53:22Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Although you're saying "on the REPL", so... no, they should be bound just fine. 2015-10-27T06:56:27Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-27T06:57:37Z dfox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T06:59:58Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:00:12Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:00:50Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:01:23Z Riviera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:01:34Z Riviera joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:09:34Z Guest78532 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:10:14Z resttime: Shinmera: Found something I thought was kind of funny: If you have a class with two slots qpainter and qimage that you want finalized, you must have the qpainter slot before the qimage one. 2015-10-27T07:10:24Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:11:22Z Shinmera: resttime: Yeah, things like that I cannot do much about. Finalization and initialization is unfortunately dependant on the order. 2015-10-27T07:11:33Z Shinmera: *are 2015-10-27T07:11:44Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:12:03Z Shinmera: For QPainters I usually don't bother to store them anywhere and just use them in a WITH-FINALIZING block. 2015-10-27T07:12:58Z Shinmera: What was the specific failure you saw if the slot order was reversed? 2015-10-27T07:13:10Z Shinmera: Just a segfault or an actual lisp error? 2015-10-27T07:13:57Z resttime: I think it was a segfault, if I recall correctly, foreign calls and such I believe. 2015-10-27T07:14:36Z drmeister: Thanks for the help folks - I'll know tomorrow if my changes worked 2015-10-27T07:14:51Z Shinmera: drmeister: When can I set up linut to test llvm37? 2015-10-27T07:15:06Z Shinmera: resttime: If you got a trace it wasn't a segfault. 2015-10-27T07:15:48Z resttime: Oh wait nvm, just tried it right now and it droips the inferior lisp into ldb 2015-10-27T07:15:54Z resttime: s/droips/drops 2015-10-27T07:15:58Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:16:12Z Shinmera: Well that's not great either. 2015-10-27T07:17:00Z Shinmera: What I'm wondering about is whether my explicit call to QPainter::end is the cause of the corruption or if it's inherent to deallocating QPainter after its QPaintDevice. 2015-10-27T07:17:10Z drmeister: Shinmera: I just pushed testing_37 2015-10-27T07:17:24Z Shinmera: drmeister: Is that a yes? 2015-10-27T07:17:31Z drmeister: yes 2015-10-27T07:17:33Z resttime: "QPaintDevice: Cannot destroy paint device that is being painted" 2015-10-27T07:17:35Z Shinmera: Ok great. 2015-10-27T07:17:41Z drmeister: I'll talk to you tomorrow. 2015-10-27T07:17:45Z drmeister: Goodnight 2015-10-27T07:17:57Z Shinmera: resttime: Ah-- alright. 2015-10-27T07:18:10Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T07:19:04Z Shinmera: resttime: Yeah I can't do much about that because the Qt API doesn't give me a way to get all painters of a paint device. 2015-10-27T07:19:24Z Shinmera: I could check against active painters and just not deallocate it at all, but that would mean memory leakage. 2015-10-27T07:21:48Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T07:22:01Z Shinmera: What I can do is throw a lisp error before deallocating. That would be better. 2015-10-27T07:22:20Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:23:15Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T07:24:21Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:24:40Z resttime: I think it's different, the problem is if the QPainter device is finalized before itself. I'm not sure there's a way to track those. 2015-10-27T07:25:03Z resttime: Before the QPainter that is 2015-10-27T07:25:17Z Shinmera: ? No, if you finalize the QPainter before the device (image) that's fine. 2015-10-27T07:25:49Z Shinmera: Finalizing a QPainter ends it, which frees the device to be deallocated. 2015-10-27T07:27:02Z resttime: Oh hmm, we were thinking the same thing. THe problem I'm see is situations where the device is finalized before the qpainter. 2015-10-27T07:27:11Z Shinmera: Exactly. 2015-10-27T07:27:34Z Shinmera: And I can't help with that because the API doesn't offer a way to get all painters from a device. 2015-10-27T07:30:19Z resttime: Ugh, need some sleep gnite 2015-10-27T07:30:26Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-27T07:32:37Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:33:38Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:35:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:36:41Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:37:28Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:38:19Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:38:39Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:41:26Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:41:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:45:50Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:46:19Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:48:27Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:51:06Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T07:54:10Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:55:57Z Gary joined #lisp 2015-10-27T07:56:20Z Gary is now known as Guest89897 2015-10-27T07:59:07Z Guest78532 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:01:02Z maveneagle joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:01:08Z chr` joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:02:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:03:35Z Niac_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:03:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:05:14Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T08:06:15Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:07:24Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:10:00Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:10:30Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:14:40Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:14:50Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:15:11Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:17:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:17:51Z snv: https://github.com/saniv/text/blob/master/criticism/images/haskell1.jpg 2015-10-27T08:18:00Z snv: oops! wrong chat :- 2015-10-27T08:19:29Z shookees: sure.. 2015-10-27T08:19:30Z shookees: :D 2015-10-27T08:23:47Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:24:09Z ZabaQ_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:27:28Z reggy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T08:27:41Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-27T08:27:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:30:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:30:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:32:12Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:38:17Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:40:54Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:43:44Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:44:17Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:49:10Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:51:59Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:52:29Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:52:50Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:53:00Z synchromesh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T08:54:05Z chr` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T08:54:21Z chr` joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:54:34Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:57:14Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T08:59:34Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T08:59:54Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T09:05:02Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:06:42Z hook__ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:07:07Z hook__ left #lisp 2015-10-27T09:07:14Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:09:17Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:13:18Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:14:41Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:19:04Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:21:19Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:27:46Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T09:27:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:28:07Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T09:28:38Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:28:52Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:29:49Z Niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-27T09:32:00Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:32:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:33:47Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:36:12Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:40:11Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:44:26Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:46:32Z diginet quit (Quit: diginet has quit!) 2015-10-27T09:51:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:55:58Z WaterOnMars joined #lisp 2015-10-27T09:56:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T09:57:57Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-27T10:00:35Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T10:01:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:01:44Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T10:02:10Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:03:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:04:58Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:05:30Z byroniczero joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:06:11Z WaterOnMars is now known as MaggieAndEazar 2015-10-27T10:07:39Z byroniczero quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T10:07:46Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:13:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:14:53Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:16:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T10:22:01Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:23:54Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:24:12Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:24:43Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:28:12Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:28:18Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:31:33Z Musclor joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:34:57Z megido joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:35:04Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:35:06Z chr` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:38:07Z wjiang_laptop quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-27T10:40:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:40:41Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:45:38Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T10:46:57Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:50:26Z chr` joined #lisp 2015-10-27T10:50:48Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-27T10:55:45Z megido: can anyone here help me with setting up slime in emacs? 2015-10-27T10:56:10Z megido: i installed it using sbcl in cmd but in emacs i get this when i try to load it http://i.imgur.com/HHLfmrJ.png 2015-10-27T11:00:43Z jackdaniel: megido: try C-M-: 2015-10-27T11:00:48Z jackdaniel: and in the buffer type (require slime) 2015-10-27T11:01:10Z jackdaniel: (require 'slime) 2015-10-27T11:01:14Z jackdaniel: ↑ with apostrophe 2015-10-27T11:01:26Z jackdaniel: s/with/with the/ 2015-10-27T11:08:10Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:08:47Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T11:08:55Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:09:18Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:09:42Z pjb is now known as Guest1547 2015-10-27T11:11:08Z snv: megido, advocating Emacs is the best way to scare people out of Lisp. Try some commercial IDE. They have free versions for non-commercial use. 2015-10-27T11:12:07Z snv: Corman CL is even open source now: https://github.com/sharplispers/cormanlisp 2015-10-27T11:12:33Z Guest1547: snv: Nah commercial IDE are all very bad, have non standard key binding, are harder to configure, etc. 2015-10-27T11:12:36Z Guest1547 is now known as pjb` 2015-10-27T11:12:42Z pjb`: leave 2015-10-27T11:12:52Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-10-27T11:13:25Z snv: pjb, any commercial IDEs is still a lot better than Emacs. It has thing thing called mouse input 2015-10-27T11:13:26Z pjb: Furthermore, people already know and use GNU emacs. 2015-10-27T11:13:35Z pjb: snv: emacs too has it. 2015-10-27T11:13:50Z pjb: snv: only nobody uses it because it's bad, unergonomic. 2015-10-27T11:16:02Z flip214: snv: bad argument, even vim has mouse input. 2015-10-27T11:16:13Z flip214: I heard notepad can use it, too! 2015-10-27T11:21:44Z geete joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:22:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:22:50Z geete: I need to write an escaped new line "\n" to a stream, ideally using format but I'm being thwared at every turn. 2015-10-27T11:23:11Z flip214: geete: escaped, as in \\n? 2015-10-27T11:23:15Z snv: flip214, vim has modes, which are retarded. And Emacs requires learning some stupid key combos. 2015-10-27T11:23:32Z megido: im still not able to get this working 2015-10-27T11:23:34Z geete: I either get a actual new line or I can get a \\n 2015-10-27T11:23:35Z jackdaniel: geete: format directive ~% gives you a new line, or what flip214 said 2015-10-27T11:23:36Z megido: is there an easier way 2015-10-27T11:23:37Z pjb: snv: no, it doesn't. And you can make you own key combos. 2015-10-27T11:23:37Z flip214: snv: I'd love to discuss that further with you, but that would be offtopic here. 2015-10-27T11:23:40Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:23:54Z snv: pjb, everyone is using NetBeans and happy with it. Nobody sane person will ever use emacs voluntarily. 2015-10-27T11:23:58Z geete: Well it should apear in the output as "\n" and not a real new line 2015-10-27T11:24:28Z mood: megido: You could try quicklisp-slime-helper, 2015-10-27T11:24:29Z jackdaniel: megido: generally you want a slime-helper from the quicklisp since it will be synced with swank on your lisp 2015-10-27T11:24:56Z snv: pjb, making own combos is hard and there is no gui for it. You will have to read manual to get anywhere with emacs. 2015-10-27T11:24:56Z maveneagle quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-27T11:25:15Z pjb: snv: if everyone is using NetBeans then you don't have anything to do in #lisp. Go away. 2015-10-27T11:25:27Z Cymew: snv, are you that Russian guy who has been ranting on #lispcafe? Maybe you should stay there? 2015-10-27T11:25:33Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-27T11:25:35Z myrkraverk: What is a good way to define a finalizer for a SAP in SBCL? 2015-10-27T11:25:37Z pjb: /ignore snv 2015-10-27T11:25:38Z pjb: oops 2015-10-27T11:25:41Z snv: Cymew, I'm not russian 2015-10-27T11:26:11Z snv: calling anyone "russian" is an insult worse than "nigger" 2015-10-27T11:26:19Z flip214: geete: * (format t "\\n") 2015-10-27T11:26:19Z flip214: \n 2015-10-27T11:26:45Z Cymew: Sorry. I only remember you ranting about Russia. Anyway, I guess you answered my question. Op around? 2015-10-27T11:27:00Z snv: pjb, NetBeans has well done IDE. Lisp Community should adopt the best practices out there. 2015-10-27T11:27:08Z myrkraverk: When I have a CFFI function that returns the pointer, I can't really create a finalizer for the pointer itself, can I? 2015-10-27T11:27:48Z geete: Well its actually more like (format t "~s" "\\n") 2015-10-27T11:27:51Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: it is implementation dependent (finalization that is) 2015-10-27T11:27:53Z fraya quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T11:28:02Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: I know, I meantioned SBCL earlier. 2015-10-27T11:28:05Z pjb: myrkraverk: Usually, pointers are wrapped in lisp objects, so I see no reason why you couldn't define a finalizer for it. 2015-10-27T11:28:13Z snv: Cymew, ok. You are forgiven. Just dont call people "russian" anymore. 2015-10-27T11:28:16Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: I think you'll have more luck on #sbcl in that case 2015-10-27T11:28:23Z myrkraverk: Oh, ok. 2015-10-27T11:28:32Z geete: Which gives \\n if you dont escape the backslash you get n 2015-10-27T11:28:33Z pjb: myrkraverk: But if the pointer is represented as an integer, that might not work. I don't know what guarantee CFFI gives in this respect. 2015-10-27T11:28:41Z pjb: myrkraverk: you could always wrap it in your own object. 2015-10-27T11:28:57Z Cymew: megido: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157582 have worked fine for me. I use slime from git so you might want to tweak the path. 2015-10-27T11:28:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: CFFI is not a sbcl question. 2015-10-27T11:29:15Z myrkraverk: pjb: SBCL restricts finalizers from referring to said object, since then there's a reference to it, in the finalizer function. 2015-10-27T11:29:22Z myrkraverk: Or that's how I understand the 'net. 2015-10-27T11:29:33Z myrkraverk: pjb: and hence no gc ever. 2015-10-27T11:29:34Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:30:14Z geete: I cant use ~a format directive which would print \n properly because I need ~s to escape quotes 2015-10-27T11:30:16Z jackdaniel: pjb: finalization *is* 2015-10-27T11:33:07Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:33:14Z flip214: * (format t "~s ~s ~s" "\\\n" "\\n" "\n") 2015-10-27T11:33:15Z flip214: "\\n" "\\n" "n" 2015-10-27T11:33:58Z pjb: "\\\n" is "\\n" (length "\\\n") #| --> 2 |# 2015-10-27T11:34:07Z pjb: (length "\n") #| --> 1 |# 2015-10-27T11:35:27Z flip214: geete: ah, now I understand what you want. 2015-10-27T11:35:36Z snv: So, anyway, LispWorks is still the best IDE for Lisp. 2015-10-27T11:35:46Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T11:35:48Z geete: Sorry it was a little hard to explain 2015-10-27T11:36:47Z snv: I have no idea why lispers react so aggressively towards any commercial software. Guess mediocrity has won. 2015-10-27T11:37:35Z flip214: snv: taste differs between people. so, it might be the "best" for you, but other people's opinion is still valid too. 2015-10-27T11:38:10Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:38:26Z snv: flip214, most lispers I've meet react very defensively towards the Emacs sacred cow. 2015-10-27T11:39:05Z flip214: perhaps they just want to be polite, and not trash you with the same kind of talk you're delivering? 2015-10-27T11:39:29Z flip214: guess they could be very offensive about emacs, too. 2015-10-27T11:40:32Z snv: flip214, I'm just direct and cutting to the point, avoiding any bullshit. 2015-10-27T11:40:52Z Shinmera: It's questionable whether you're avoiding bullshit or whether you just drive right through it. 2015-10-27T11:41:00Z Shinmera: I'm tending towards the latter. 2015-10-27T11:41:21Z chr` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T11:41:58Z snv: I know of just one lisper in Russia, who uses LispWorks. That is Vladymir Fomin, who also happens to be one of a few transexuals there. 2015-10-27T11:42:39Z Shinmera: Good for you. 2015-10-27T11:42:54Z snv: Shinmera, I have just grown tired of free software commies. 2015-10-27T11:42:58Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T11:43:30Z flip214: snv: please humor me and answer a few questions. do you play computer games? 2015-10-27T11:43:38Z jackdaniel: http://www.clker.com/cliparts/C/d/F/2/C/M/do-not-feed-the-trolls-md.png 2015-10-27T11:43:39Z Shinmera: And I'm tired of people slandering stuff for no reason instead of explaining the reasons behind their choices. 2015-10-27T11:43:44Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:43:49Z snv: flip214, I'm not playing games, developing them. Using Lisp 2015-10-27T11:43:50Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T11:44:20Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: But it's so much fun watching people flail about! 2015-10-27T11:44:40Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:44:42Z flip214: snv: no, I'm trying to get a different point. what do you prefer, mouse or joystick? 2015-10-27T11:44:55Z snv: Shinmera, deficiencies of free software were explained numerous times, and by lispers too: http://www.shenlanguage.org/lambdassociates/htdocs/blog/the_problems_of_open_source.htm 2015-10-27T11:45:08Z Shinmera: snv: That's great, but it doesn't help your case. 2015-10-27T11:45:18Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: you're the first to anger when people tend to flood crap, you should understand me. (plus I see only one part of the conversation - act of the feeding, I've /ignore'd him long time ago) 2015-10-27T11:45:24Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-27T11:45:28Z snv: flip214, mouse has more precision for manipulating objects. 2015-10-27T11:45:56Z flip214: snv: but to make many different actions possible, you need as many buttons on it as possible, right? 2015-10-27T11:46:37Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I understand you very well. Sadly as you also pointed out /ignore is a very imperfect solution. 2015-10-27T11:46:50Z flip214: jackdaniel: I'm sorry, will be finished in a sec. 2015-10-27T11:46:54Z Zhivago: snv: It may be something to do with not having any money. 2015-10-27T11:47:08Z snv: flip214, nope you need a good mouse interface 2015-10-27T11:47:12Z Zhivago: snv: With a suitable donation you could solve the problem. 2015-10-27T11:47:39Z flip214: snv: so, you wouldn't even need the one mouse button that apple mice have, but no buttons are good enough? 2015-10-27T11:47:45Z snv: flip214, there is even a mice gui requiring no buttons at all http://www.dontclick.it/ 2015-10-27T11:48:10Z snv: flip214, you need no buttons, just mouse. 2015-10-27T11:48:19Z Zhivago: Hurrah for gestures. 2015-10-27T11:48:30Z snv: Zhivago, get a job you slackers! 2015-10-27T11:48:52Z flip214: snv: well, *I* prefer a few well-learned locations for my fingers (so-called "keys") that happen to be pressed almost automatically. 2015-10-27T11:48:56Z snv: Zhivago, dontclick.it doesnt use jestures 2015-10-27T11:49:34Z snv: flip214, implying people want to memorize mind boggling combinations and break their fingers typing them 2015-10-27T11:50:07Z flip214: snv: so, you like to push a mouse and having to remember in which menu which button can be found? 2015-10-27T11:50:07Z snv: Install Emacs and get your free carpal tunnel syndrome today! 2015-10-27T11:50:16Z flip214: as you said, a mouse needs precision to hit the target. no more questions, I'll rest my case. 2015-10-27T11:50:22Z chr` joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:50:25Z flip214: jackdaniel: i'm done, sorry for the noise. 2015-10-27T11:50:40Z jackdaniel: :-) 2015-10-27T11:50:52Z snv: flip214, mouse interface is self describing or there is a context help available. That is why OSX and Windows won over Linux 2015-10-27T11:51:42Z flip214: I'm really tempted to continue discussing... 2015-10-27T11:51:48Z snv: flip214, the precision is dependent on the target size. There can be an interface to impaired people. 2015-10-27T11:51:56Z snv: *for impaired people 2015-10-27T11:52:21Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:52:31Z snv: flip214, sorry, I have chores to do… have a nice day! 2015-10-27T11:52:57Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-27T11:56:09Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:01:19Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:01:42Z fraya quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T12:05:31Z fraya joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:06:13Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:10:00Z geete: \quit 2015-10-27T12:10:05Z geete quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-27T12:18:38Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-27T12:19:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T12:25:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:27:24Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:29:09Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-27T12:32:09Z fraya: exit 2015-10-27T12:32:13Z fraya left #lisp 2015-10-27T12:35:22Z mbrock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T12:36:40Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:37:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:41:25Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:43:46Z Guest89897 left #lisp 2015-10-27T12:44:13Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T12:45:20Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:48:01Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:52:16Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:52:41Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:52:45Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:53:38Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T12:56:21Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T12:56:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:00:01Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:02:38Z drmeister: In the CLHS, is there a list of functions that take environment objects like MACROEXPAND? 2015-10-27T13:02:58Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:06:02Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:06:56Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:07:33Z White_Flame: pretty sure it's just macroexpand 2015-10-27T13:07:41Z guicho joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:09:17Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T13:09:43Z Shinmera: CONSTANT-P is another one that comes to mind 2015-10-27T13:11:49Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:13:45Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:15:21Z Shinmera: drmeister: This is a shitty heuristic, but http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/CS?password=# 2015-10-27T13:16:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:18:01Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:21:06Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:22:14Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:26:09Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T13:26:43Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:27:36Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:27:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:28:59Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:29:20Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T13:29:28Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:30:52Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:31:30Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:35:36Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:36:03Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:42:04Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T13:43:41Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:44:54Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:46:26Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:46:32Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:48:36Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:49:40Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T13:49:54Z warweasle: Which library adds continuations? 2015-10-27T13:50:14Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:50:49Z warweasle: I see cl-cont, but isn't there another? 2015-10-27T13:50:56Z marvi joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:51:23Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:51:48Z snv: warweasle, why do you need continuations? 2015-10-27T13:51:51Z White_Flame: warweasle: what specific features do you need? 2015-10-27T13:51:53Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T13:51:57Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T13:52:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:52:31Z ajf-: any ideas on getting '(3 3 3 3) from 4, '(6 6) from 2, '(4 4 4) from 3, etc? i.e. k = (/ 12 n) and repeat n times. 2015-10-27T13:52:39Z ajf-: I'm thinking in a loop, and collect while increasing a total amount 2015-10-27T13:52:50Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:53:35Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-27T13:53:37Z warweasle: White_Flame: I'm investigating a way of making a DOM tree. I would really like to create dynamic variables so when a node method/function is called, the above variables are visible. I'm thinking of just hiding it with macro-let, however. 2015-10-27T13:54:16Z warweasle: ajf-: (loop for i from 1 to x collect i) ? 2015-10-27T13:54:23Z White_Flame: continuations certainly don't sprint to mine from that... 2015-10-27T13:54:44Z ajf-: something like that yes warweasle, x being ? 2015-10-27T13:55:09Z White_Flame: ajf-: (make-list n :initial-element (/ 12 n)) ? 2015-10-27T13:55:24Z warweasle: ajf-: I knew there had to be a better way. 2015-10-27T13:55:39Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:56:01Z warweasle: White_Flame: Well, I can feel there is a better, lispyer way of working with a DOM tree. 2015-10-27T13:56:11Z ajf-: White_Flame: (make-list 4 :initial-element (/ 12 n)) gives me '(3/4 3/4 3/4 3/4), but it should be '(3 3 3 3) 2015-10-27T13:56:16Z White_Flame: warweasle: I would consider having a macro building up a giant nested expression for the DOM, with LETs surrounding elements, and lambdas seeing those lexical scopes 2015-10-27T13:56:32Z White_Flame: but the size of that might get unwieldy for compile times 2015-10-27T13:56:34Z ajf-: sorry 2015-10-27T13:56:40Z ajf-: yes works great =) 2015-10-27T13:56:42Z ajf-: hahaha 2015-10-27T13:56:45Z ajf-: dummy 2015-10-27T13:56:49Z warweasle: White_Flame: And I would need to recompile whenever I insert a node. 2015-10-27T13:56:54Z White_Flame: true 2015-10-27T13:57:18Z White_Flame: and I presume you want lexical read/write access to its scope, not just passing in the current values? 2015-10-27T13:57:43Z White_Flame: (as parameters when a function is called) 2015-10-27T13:58:38Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:59:10Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T13:59:13Z warweasle: White_Flame: That would be ideal. Passing a hash table as a dynamic scope might be the only way. But again, with lisp, there is always a better way. I would not be surprised if it's been done. I used progv to create a dynamic let, But I'd have to call all the way down the tree to create the bindings. Or create a wrapper lambda which does it. 2015-10-27T13:59:35Z White_Flame: there's progv, but I think that would have pretty high overhead in your use 2015-10-27T13:59:59Z White_Flame: (oh, as you mentioned) 2015-10-27T14:00:21Z warweasle: White_Flame: We both pressed enter at the same time. 2015-10-27T14:01:04Z warweasle: White_Flame: I could create a metacircular evaluator, but I would lose slime support. :( 2015-10-27T14:01:10Z White_Flame: right 2015-10-27T14:01:26Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:01:29Z White_Flame: how important is performance? 2015-10-27T14:01:51Z warweasle: White_Flame: Right now? Not important. 2015-10-27T14:02:17Z warweasle is just trying to become a better lisper. 2015-10-27T14:02:17Z White_Flame: actually, even with progv, that doesn't cause writebacks to the original locations 2015-10-27T14:02:49Z White_Flame: I can't think of a way to add new lambdas within an already-compiled lexical closure, which I believe would be your ideal scenario 2015-10-27T14:03:05Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:03:09Z White_Flame: there might be something with environment objects you could use 2015-10-27T14:04:20Z warweasle: White_Flame: I've been looking for something like that is lisp. It's in some schemes, but if I can save an envrionment and load it when I need it, well that might work better than a hash table. 2015-10-27T14:05:16Z dlowe: White_Flame: you can return functions from your closure that modify the environment 2015-10-27T14:05:42Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T14:05:50Z White_Flame: dlowe: right, but what about defining a new lambda that lexically & directly refers to variables from that closure? 2015-10-27T14:06:11Z White_Flame: ie, setfs would hit the original closure's storage slots 2015-10-27T14:06:53Z dlowe: you define a hash table within that environment symbol -> function, then return a "closure-funcall" function 2015-10-27T14:07:05Z dlowe: as well as a closure-fset function 2015-10-27T14:07:12Z warweasle: dlowe: That's an idea. A wraper like (lambda (f args) (dynamic-let ((x 1)) (apply f args))) ? 2015-10-27T14:07:37Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:07:48Z warweasle: dlowe: Dynamic-let using progv 2015-10-27T14:08:05Z White_Flame: I'm also thinking along the lines of runtime eval, wrapped in symbol-macrolet 2015-10-27T14:08:10Z bobbysmith007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:08:25Z dlowe: (lambda ((functions (make-hash-table))) (values (lambda (sym f) (setf (gethash sym functions) f)) (lambda (sym &rest args) (apply (gethash sym functions) args)))) 2015-10-27T14:08:28Z White_Flame: where the lexical symbols get converted into accessors that don't need to be inside lexical scopes 2015-10-27T14:08:55Z White_Flame: but the construction of the symbol-macrolet would be at runtime, based on the current configuration of the DOM ancestry 2015-10-27T14:09:50Z dlowe: sounds wretched. I think maybe you should think about what the interface would look like for manipulating a DOM rather than the implementation details 2015-10-27T14:09:51Z White_Flame: s/lambda/let/ for the first occurrence? 2015-10-27T14:09:57Z dlowe: yeah, sorry 2015-10-27T14:10:02Z dlowe: I had lambda on the brain 2015-10-27T14:10:05Z White_Flame: the interface would look lexical 2015-10-27T14:10:24Z dlowe: okay, write some example code, assuming you already had it working 2015-10-27T14:10:41Z White_Flame: (lambda () (setf width 15)) 2015-10-27T14:10:41Z warweasle: dlowe: Agreed, but I realized I don't completely understand scope in lisp. So I started playing around... 2015-10-27T14:10:53Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:11:32Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:11:44Z dlowe: if you used CLOS objects for your DOM, (with-slots (width) node (lambda () (setf width 15))) would work fine 2015-10-27T14:11:47Z White_Flame: where the width would be symbol-macro expanded to access some particular node in the tree, depending on where it was declared to be slotted in 2015-10-27T14:12:17Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:12:34Z White_Flame: however, I'm thinking my idea has drawbacks when moving nodes around the tree. That case would be simpler if the variable was resolved at every access 2015-10-27T14:12:56Z White_Flame: (or the node's code was recompiled when it received a new parent) 2015-10-27T14:13:30Z White_Flame: (or really any change to its direct ancestry) 2015-10-27T14:13:31Z warweasle: White_Flame: That might work. 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: dlowe: (window 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: (viewport 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: (shader 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: (overlay 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: (text "FPS:" 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: :update (lambda () 2015-10-27T14:13:35Z warweasle: (setf (text this) *delta-time*))))))) 2015-10-27T14:13:46Z White_Flame: there's a paste link in the topic 2015-10-27T14:14:04Z warweasle: White_Flame: My mistake. I forgot. 2015-10-27T14:14:15Z warweasle got excited. 2015-10-27T14:14:39Z dlowe: warweasle: would that update every matching node or just one? 2015-10-27T14:14:56Z White_Flame: that doesn't do any walking up the parent chain 2015-10-27T14:15:19Z dlowe: it walks down, though? 2015-10-27T14:15:28Z White_Flame: it just accesses "self" 2015-10-27T14:15:32Z warweasle: dlowe: Only the "text" node. And correct, I was trying to reuse nodes. I don't think I can do that, however. 2015-10-27T14:15:33Z White_Flame: "this" 2015-10-27T14:15:58Z White_Flame: okay, maybe I understood differently. I thought you were trying to access values declared higher up the tree from lower nodes 2015-10-27T14:16:00Z dlowe: well, you could make "this" a parameter to the lambda 2015-10-27T14:16:16Z dlowe: but really, you're just talking about a weird query language there 2015-10-27T14:16:26Z warweasle: White_Flame: You understand correctly. The *delta-time* is declared above it. 2015-10-27T14:16:28Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:16:52Z White_Flame: but *delta-time* is just a regular special var, not in the tree? 2015-10-27T14:17:38Z White_Flame: I was thinking if "shader" set a variable "foo", and shader's sibling node also had a "foo", that from within those branches, "foo" would access one of those values depending on its location (if not shadowed) 2015-10-27T14:17:53Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:18:06Z warweasle: White_Flame: If I understand the question correctly: Above (text ... there is a ("dynamic-let" ((*delta-time* .3432)) ... (call to text node)... 2015-10-27T14:18:49Z White_Flame: does my shader/foo example make sense? 2015-10-27T14:18:52Z warweasle: White_Flame: That's exactly what I would like, since shader values change constantly and can have different values for different passes. 2015-10-27T14:18:56Z White_Flame: ok 2015-10-27T14:19:20Z White_Flame: so yeah, adding to an existing lexical closure would still be the ideal 2015-10-27T14:19:31Z White_Flame: well, for the static case :-P 2015-10-27T14:19:31Z ajf-: (defun (args) (setf vars) (use vars and return)) <- that doesn't work right ? 2015-10-27T14:19:37Z White_Flame always has compilers on the brain 2015-10-27T14:19:49Z dlowe: ajf-: you're missing a function name there 2015-10-27T14:20:01Z ajf-: yes but apart from that 2015-10-27T14:20:02Z dlowe: ajf-: but you need to declare the variables with a LET 2015-10-27T14:20:06Z ajf-: ah ok 2015-10-27T14:20:09Z warweasle could always use an alist I guess. 2015-10-27T14:20:25Z dlowe: ajf-: unless you're using a special global variable, then you defvar before the defun 2015-10-27T14:20:38Z White_Flame: if you want to be able to move nodes around the tree, dynamic resolution at the time of read/write would be the most straightforward 2015-10-27T14:21:11Z White_Flame: ie, walk the tree to find the variable to read 2015-10-27T14:21:21Z dlowe: I think you're going to have a problem with value shadowing there 2015-10-27T14:21:21Z White_Flame: however, you also want to figure out what it means to write to a variable 2015-10-27T14:21:34Z White_Flame: do you overwrite something up the parentage, or do you create a local variable to shadow the upstream value? 2015-10-27T14:22:02Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:22:15Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:22:19Z warweasle: White_Flame: Hmm... Maybe I'm thinking about this too hard. Getting the lexical scope of a node when it's not called, doesn't make much sense. If it's used multiple times, which one should it return? 2015-10-27T14:22:28Z warweasle: s/return/store. 2015-10-27T14:22:52Z White_Flame: I don't quite understand that 2015-10-27T14:23:05Z warweasle: White_Flame: Oh. I hadn't thought of that. 2015-10-27T14:23:21Z White_Flame: If you want to be able to shuffle nodes around the tree, I think you need to get away from lexical, or you're going to have to be doing runtime eval & recompilatin 2015-10-27T14:23:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:24:23Z warweasle: White_Flame: I expect to reuse nodes, such as meshes, so I can have multiple render passes. (Differed lighting and shadows.) 2015-10-27T14:24:40Z White_Flame: so the same node instance occurs in multiple places in the tree? 2015-10-27T14:25:18Z warweasle: White_Flame: Yes. The reason being, if I have multple instances, I'll need to update them all or they get out of synch. 2015-10-27T14:25:30Z White_Flame: you can't store the parent on the node itself in that case 2015-10-27T14:25:38Z White_Flame: so it's purely parent->child links? 2015-10-27T14:25:56Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-10-27T14:26:14Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:26:37Z warweasle: White_Flame: Yes. Unidirectional. But when the lambda is called I can have a *parent* or *shader* for the current "state". 2015-10-27T14:27:00Z warweasle: White_Flame: I'll call the root node every update pass, for example. 2015-10-27T14:27:28Z White_Flame: ok, so the node doesn't interact with the DOM at all; it only interacts with the current runtime context that happens to be current 2015-10-27T14:27:37Z Ober quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:27:58Z warweasle: White_Flame: Yes, exactly. I wish I could explain things that well. 2015-10-27T14:28:00Z Ober joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:28:01Z White_Flame: that's the regular domain of special vars, or passing in the context as parameters to the lambda 2015-10-27T14:28:48Z warweasle: White_Flame: Is there a way to identify undefined variables and replace them with a macro. 2015-10-27T14:28:51Z White_Flame: or, have all your lambdas declared within in a single large scope that contains all your context definitions 2015-10-27T14:29:51Z White_Flame: there's boundp for runtime checks 2015-10-27T14:29:51Z warweasle: White_Flame: Or unbound variables, rather? Then I could macro-symbol them into a (gethash *state-in-global* var) 2015-10-27T14:29:52Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:30:04Z Zhivago: Code-walker. :) 2015-10-27T14:30:07Z White_Flame: however, I believe that checks the symbol-value, not lexically 2015-10-27T14:30:17Z spacebat quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-10-27T14:30:52Z warweasle: Zhivago: cl-walker? 2015-10-27T14:31:18Z Zhivago: Could be. 2015-10-27T14:31:21Z White_Flame: is the definition of "unbound variable" in your use case determined at compiletime or runtime? 2015-10-27T14:31:52Z White_Flame: because its location in the tree is runtime, but replacing references with macro stuff is a compile time activity 2015-10-27T14:32:04Z warweasle: White_Flame: Compile time. Any variables external to the function could be transformed. 2015-10-27T14:32:52Z White_Flame: that's certainly in code walker territory 2015-10-27T14:33:09Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:34:14Z White_Flame: in a simple case, you can use a separate custom lambda macro that groks the parameter specifications, but you really need a code walker to determine how code is being constructed in a body 2015-10-27T14:34:16Z warweasle: White_Flame: It might be difficult to find all the local varible definitions. with all the delcares, lets, etc.. 2015-10-27T14:34:51Z White_Flame: yeah, reading the lexical context external to a body is implemention-dependent, if possible at all from "user" code 2015-10-27T14:35:22Z White_Flame: this is what code walkers are for 2015-10-27T14:35:32Z White_Flame: and I wish it was part of the standard 2015-10-27T14:36:12Z White_Flame: mind you, I've not used code walkers before. I've done list-walking of expression bodies and got bitten when SBCL shifted over to structure-based quasiquotes 2015-10-27T14:37:36Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:38:20Z arrsim quit (Quit: bye) 2015-10-27T14:38:24Z warweasle: White_Flame: It looks like the best solution would be a macro where (local? *parent*) which would look for an item in current alist or return the contextual one. 2015-10-27T14:38:55Z Octophore` is now known as Octophore 2015-10-27T14:39:16Z White_Flame: I think you should just use regular dynamic variables 2015-10-27T14:39:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:39:54Z White_Flame: I've built systems with some similarity to this, though I didnt' really keep the DOM tree around; I just built up chains of lambdas, with context in dynamic variables 2015-10-27T14:40:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't it possible to (let ((foo 3)) (declare (special foo))) ? Would that have the effect wanted? 2015-10-27T14:40:49Z White_Flame: I've very, very rarely ever used (declare (special)) 2015-10-27T14:40:59Z White_Flame: and I think the one time I used it, I ended up taking it out because it was stopgap 2015-10-27T14:41:17Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I believe that does the same thing as progv, so yes? 2015-10-27T14:41:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: But if you want non-global dynamic variables, that'd be the way to get them, right? 2015-10-27T14:41:27Z jackdaniel: doesn't defparameter / defvar do it automagically? 2015-10-27T14:41:29Z White_Flame: so while that does dynamically bind foo, the fact that "foo" exists should also exist outside that body 2015-10-27T14:41:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: I'm unfamiliar with progv 2015-10-27T14:41:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs progv 2015-10-27T14:41:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2015-10-27T14:41:47Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I was too, until yesterday. 2015-10-27T14:42:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:42:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Some people complain about a bloated standard, I see it as an untapped mine of interesting things :) 2015-10-27T14:43:21Z White_Flame: I've never heard people complaining that the CLHS is too big, instead that it doesn't include enough 2015-10-27T14:43:45Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: "I've seen the finest minds of several generations create things I can barely understand." 2015-10-27T14:44:43Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T14:44:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I've run across it, but mostly from people who like Scheme 2015-10-27T14:45:44Z White_Flame: but one thing that always comes up in situations like this is that Lisp is supposed to be homoiconic, but there are no standards to actually walk the code 2015-10-27T14:46:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: macrolet can often substitute for a hand-written codewalker 2015-10-27T14:46:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, yeah 2015-10-27T14:46:50Z White_Flame: yeah, use macrolet to shadow all of CL: maybe 2015-10-27T14:46:56Z oGMo: yeah, aren't you supposed to more or less leverage CL's own expansion/code walking 2015-10-27T14:47:28Z White_Flame: oGMo: is it possible to determine at macroexpansion time if a symbol is referring to a lexical binding? 2015-10-27T14:47:59Z oGMo: White_Flame: why do you need to? let LET expand or not? 2015-10-27T14:48:11Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:48:33Z White_Flame: exactly warweasle's case. For accesses that are not known to be lexical, create different accessors 2015-10-27T14:49:10Z White_Flame: or even "query which variables this body uses", which I've needed for code transformation 2015-10-27T14:49:14Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:49:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T14:49:38Z White_Flame: which might include both lexical and dynamic 2015-10-27T14:49:51Z radioninja_work quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T14:49:52Z oGMo: i'm not exactly sure what warweasle is doing but it may be better to take a different approach 2015-10-27T14:49:58Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-27T14:49:59Z arrsim joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:50:02Z warweasle is playing with a dynamic-let. 2015-10-27T14:50:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DLO 2015-10-27T14:50:14Z White_Flame: that's always a pretty cop-out'ish answer found here, when specific things are attempted 2015-10-27T14:50:15Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:50:15Z oGMo: but "if you're code walking manually, you should probably take a different approach" is generally how it goes 2015-10-27T14:50:27Z oGMo: White_Flame: specific *wrong* things 2015-10-27T14:50:28Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:50:50Z White_Flame: oGMo: that's simply wrong 2015-10-27T14:50:58Z oGMo: (again, not sure what warweasle is doing specifically, but in _every_ other "walk the code" case i've seen, it's generally wrong) 2015-10-27T14:51:00Z White_Flame: requirements are never "*wrong*" 2015-10-27T14:51:15Z White_Flame: in terms of the implementation decision 2015-10-27T14:51:24Z White_Flame: they are the axioms to work with 2015-10-27T14:51:26Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:51:35Z oGMo: White_Flame: no, but baking a cake to drive to work in is wrong, even if you specify it as a requirement 2015-10-27T14:51:47Z White_Flame: it's not wrong 2015-10-27T14:51:50Z araujo_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T14:51:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes they are: for example, if someone wants a gapless, incrementing sequence to be maintained by multiple threads 2015-10-27T14:51:52Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:52:01Z White_Flame: if that's your task, if that's the design for your parade or whatever, the real issue is actually doing it 2015-10-27T14:52:05Z oGMo: one can easily specify absurd and poorly-envision requirements 2015-10-27T14:52:13Z warweasle: oGMo: And how! 2015-10-27T14:52:53Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:52:53Z warweasle: oGMo: Part of this is finding out what CL can do. There always seems to be a better way I haven't thought of. 2015-10-27T14:52:54Z White_Flame: but my main case that I brought up involved adding lisp code bodies to a system, needing to infer what the body is accessing 2015-10-27T14:52:57Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:53:01Z taij33n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:53:11Z White_Flame: now, you could say it's "wrong" to have that expectation, but that was the best designed convenience 2015-10-27T14:53:36Z White_Flame: and saying "work more inconveniently" is a bad response to design requirements 2015-10-27T14:54:08Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-27T14:54:10Z White_Flame: the computer should work more, not the human 2015-10-27T14:54:15Z myrkraverk: With something like http://paste.lisp.org/+3DLP how can I test that the finalizer is running correctly? 2015-10-27T14:54:23Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-27T14:54:28Z myrkraverk: The C code should print to standard output, so I believe it's not being run. 2015-10-27T14:54:30Z oGMo: warweasle: perhaps. last i heard you were writing some scene/node DSL i think? but maybe that was before .. i'd think that could be done by macroexpansion, but specifics and all 2015-10-27T14:54:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: myrkraverk: can you just stick a (format t "hi") in the finalizer? 2015-10-27T14:55:03Z myrkraverk: fiddlerwoaroof:I guess, yeah. 2015-10-27T14:55:12Z White_Flame: myrkraverk: or (setf *this-actually-ran* t) 2015-10-27T14:55:18Z warweasle: oGMo: Unfortunately I tried an failed with macros. It works for a static tree, but when I add things, I lose the correct scope. 2015-10-27T14:55:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: myrkraverk: or (break) 2015-10-27T14:55:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way you'll be sure. 2015-10-27T14:55:46Z oGMo: warweasle: hrm got examples? 2015-10-27T14:55:49Z White_Flame: warweasle: and that's also why I end up with runtime compilers 2015-10-27T14:56:26Z myrkraverk: I have a feeling it's not being run. Even with (setf foo nil) and (gc) 2015-10-27T14:56:35Z oGMo: but CL _is_ a runtime compiler .. your macros can write functions on the fly 2015-10-27T14:56:43Z White_Flame: at macroexpansion time 2015-10-27T14:56:59Z White_Flame: which needs to be invoked with EVAL or equivalent at runtime 2015-10-27T14:57:05Z oGMo: um no 2015-10-27T14:57:06Z White_Flame: application runtime, that is 2015-10-27T14:57:11Z myrkraverk: Yeah, no evidence of the finalizer being run. 2015-10-27T14:57:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: try (gc :full t) 2015-10-27T14:57:58Z myrkraverk: Right, *then* it's run. Thank you. 2015-10-27T15:00:14Z warweasle: oGMo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157599 2015-10-27T15:00:41Z White_Flame: warweasle: you need to insert your *delta-time* declaration into the tree too, for clarity 2015-10-27T15:00:49Z White_Flame: or remove the asterisks, if they're not actually special vars 2015-10-27T15:00:51Z oGMo: warweasle: oh and you need to determine what TEXT is? yeah i wouldn't do it that way 2015-10-27T15:00:51Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T15:01:37Z taij33n joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:01:58Z warweasle: oGMo: whoops, I meant to add the new shader to the viewport object. 2015-10-27T15:02:10Z oGMo: passing in TEXT to the lambda would be the most trivial solution and you'd probably want to do it regardless 2015-10-27T15:02:33Z oGMo: or the scenegraph and you can pick the node, so your text update can also update other things 2015-10-27T15:02:52Z White_Flame: oGMo: the larger issue is finding "delta-time", which is declared up the tree 2015-10-27T15:02:56Z White_Flame: not as a regular special var 2015-10-27T15:03:15Z White_Flame: where the syntax in the lisp body works as a normal accessible variable 2015-10-27T15:03:18Z oGMo: again, pass or close over state 2015-10-27T15:03:23Z White_Flame: why? 2015-10-27T15:03:26Z chr` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:03:30Z White_Flame: that puts more burden on the author 2015-10-27T15:03:31Z oGMo: because that's the best way to do it 2015-10-27T15:03:41Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:03:44Z oGMo: no, because otherwise you paint yourself into a corner 2015-10-27T15:04:03Z White_Flame: isn't the point of DSLs to create systems which express what you want, then the computer obeys them? 2015-10-27T15:04:12Z oGMo: closing over state is literally the most trivial, hands-off solution to this, and the textbook case of _why closures_ 2015-10-27T15:04:19Z oGMo: White_Flame: no 2015-10-27T15:04:21Z oGMo: it's not 2015-10-27T15:04:22Z White_Flame: isn't the point of Lisp to be programmable, to allow you to express new constructs? 2015-10-27T15:04:45Z White_Flame: isn't tools programming all about empowering you to easily express things the machine can already figure out? 2015-10-27T15:04:49Z oGMo: White_Flame: is the point of physics to let you write laws to do whatever you want? 2015-10-27T15:04:57Z White_Flame: physics is not creative 2015-10-27T15:05:12Z White_Flame: programming is creating the physics of your created domain 2015-10-27T15:05:18Z oGMo: i think scores of inventors would disagree 2015-10-27T15:05:57Z sundo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:06:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: what is "paste" in emacs? 2015-10-27T15:06:07Z oGMo: no, programming is _creating good definitions_ for what you want to do, in the context of the "physics" of the machine 2015-10-27T15:06:09Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-27T15:06:11Z White_Flame: and again, closures _can't_ work in this situation, because the tree is dynamically modified 2015-10-27T15:06:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: hn/m 2015-10-27T15:06:21Z White_Flame: exactly, and you're barring definitions of accesses 2015-10-27T15:06:29Z White_Flame: instead of allowing the concept of creating them 2015-10-27T15:06:41Z oGMo: White_Flame: only because it's not defined in a manner that lets one do so 2015-10-27T15:06:52Z White_Flame: hence creating transformations which allow them 2015-10-27T15:08:34Z White_Flame: I see this way too much. A viewpoint of "This thing allows me to do X", instead of "I need to do X, figure out how" 2015-10-27T15:09:02Z myrkraverk: fiddlerwoaroof: you mean "yank" ? 2015-10-27T15:09:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I remembered it :) I use emacs about once every month 2015-10-27T15:09:29Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: Shift-Insert works in my default config 2015-10-27T15:09:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-y 2015-10-27T15:09:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: worked 2015-10-27T15:09:39Z White_Flame: if you want to use "more modern" bindings 2015-10-27T15:09:39Z oGMo: White_Flame: except you seem to be fixating on code walking as the necessary and unique way to solve this problem, instead of using the toolbox at hand 2015-10-27T15:10:09Z White_Flame: oGMo: if the goal is to let the user work with variables transparently, then that is the starting requirement 2015-10-27T15:10:16Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T15:10:26Z White_Flame: and that is a very useful requirement in a number of situations 2015-10-27T15:10:39Z oGMo: White_Flame: then you're already doing it wrong 2015-10-27T15:10:57Z White_Flame: "wrong" == straying from how it's always been done, I suppose 2015-10-27T15:11:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: This sounds like a situation for dataflow programming 2015-10-27T15:11:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I think they call it FRP these days?) 2015-10-27T15:11:33Z oGMo: you've determined a specific solution you feel you could shop around to a few problems, instead of trying to solve the actual problem 2015-10-27T15:11:34Z White_Flame: it's just basic DSL design 2015-10-27T15:11:37Z nyef: ... Fantasy Role Play? 2015-10-27T15:11:39Z White_Flame: it's not a solution 2015-10-27T15:11:45Z White_Flame: it's a requirement 2015-10-27T15:11:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: Functional Reactive Programming 2015-10-27T15:11:52Z White_Flame: that then can be implemented with various solutions 2015-10-27T15:12:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:12:52Z White_Flame: in some ways Lisp is very programmable. In other ways, not so much. It is not "wrong" to seek parity in the programmability 2015-10-27T15:13:06Z White_Flame: (the "not so much" being the ability to override variable access) 2015-10-27T15:13:13Z White_Flame: (or even just introspect it) 2015-10-27T15:14:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, you can use SYMBOL-MACROLET and SETF's generalized places to get something like overriden variable access 2015-10-27T15:14:17Z White_Flame: sure, but only if you know the symbols up front 2015-10-27T15:14:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: As, for example, WITH-SLOTS does 2015-10-27T15:14:18Z oGMo: fiddlerwoaroof: exactly 2015-10-27T15:14:33Z oGMo: but White_Flame wants a specific solution to this problem, and anything else is not good enough 2015-10-27T15:14:37Z White_Flame: you can't change default behavior of out-of-scope variable accesses that way 2015-10-27T15:14:45Z White_Flame: again, you're confusing what a "solution" is 2015-10-27T15:14:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: sure you can 2015-10-27T15:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could probably also use handler-bind to automagically bind the variables 2015-10-27T15:15:44Z White_Flame: oGMo: You are specifically down the path of "this interpreter is hard to write, so I'll change the input language, even if it makes it worse" 2015-10-27T15:16:05Z White_Flame: _that_ is forcing the solution on the requirement 2015-10-27T15:16:11Z White_Flame: ..is an example opf 2015-10-27T15:16:14Z White_Flame: of 2015-10-27T15:16:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes, though, certain things are hard to write because they are intrinsically bad ideas 2015-10-27T15:16:20Z oGMo: White_Flame: no, i'm down the path "you don't need to write an 'interpreter', you've got all of Common Lisp, and you can use existing forms to do exactly what you want, in a superior way" 2015-10-27T15:16:49Z White_Flame: but you're already saying that to avoid the "superior way" 2015-10-27T15:17:07Z White_Flame: ("anything else is not good enough" etc) 2015-10-27T15:17:27Z White_Flame: ie, "do not attempt to create a doman-specific superior way, only use clunkier generic means" 2015-10-27T15:17:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:18:03Z oGMo: if you feel it's better, go make it work and prove it to be; if it's that much better everyone will clearly adopt it 2015-10-27T15:18:22Z White_Flame: again, "domain specific" and "solution" seem to be lost on you 2015-10-27T15:19:11Z oGMo: you keep using that word; i don't think that word means what you think it means 2015-10-27T15:19:13Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-10-27T15:19:18Z White_Flame: I know exactly what it mean 2015-10-27T15:19:35Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:20:12Z oGMo: then go write code that works; it will be clear proof of such 2015-10-27T15:20:18Z White_Flame: I have done such 2015-10-27T15:20:30Z White_Flame: in other large projects that have run in very important sites 2015-10-27T15:20:39Z oGMo: mmhmm 2015-10-27T15:21:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:21:33Z White_Flame: (and not "sites" as in "websites", I mean "sites" as in "nuclear reactors" etc) 2015-10-27T15:22:25Z oGMo: then surely you can reproduce a working, fully-generalized code walker that does exactly what you want, and post it somewhere others can find it useful as well 2015-10-27T15:22:47Z oGMo: i.e., the problem cannot be hard if you've solved it, because you've already solved it, so why complain? 2015-10-27T15:22:48Z White_Flame: that's part of my hobby coding 2015-10-27T15:23:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:23:24Z White_Flame: because language _design_, not just language _use_ is important to me, and is a main reason I build off of Lisp 2015-10-27T15:23:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: (block nil (handler-bind ((unbound-variable (λ (c) (return-from nil 3)))) asdfsdf)) #| ---> 3 |# 2015-10-27T15:23:43Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, ping 2015-10-27T15:23:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I suppose handler-case would be better here) 2015-10-27T15:23:50Z eudoxia: yo 2015-10-27T15:24:12Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, what projects use codex? do you have live docs example? 2015-10-27T15:24:29Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh! That's a cool idea. 2015-10-27T15:24:53Z eudoxia: odd, i could've sworn i kept a list of users somewhere... 2015-10-27T15:25:01Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T15:25:12Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: https://github.com/CommonDoc/codex/blob/d47a7202cb2b5110da6d54c993900d6bd6658f96/README.md#users 2015-10-27T15:25:26Z DeadTrickster: woops ) 2015-10-27T15:25:34Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: example live docs http://ceramic.github.io/docs/api-reference.html 2015-10-27T15:25:46Z eudoxia: alternatively http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/docs/example--a-twitter-clone.html 2015-10-27T15:25:48Z dwrngr joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:25:59Z DeadTrickster: ceramic looks nice 2015-10-27T15:26:06Z DeadTrickster: examples generated by codex too? 2015-10-27T15:26:19Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, that's superior to boundp checks 2015-10-27T15:26:25Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: what do you mean 2015-10-27T15:26:38Z DeadTrickster: there is 5 sections 2015-10-27T15:26:47Z DeadTrickster: into tutorials and finally api reference 2015-10-27T15:26:53Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: all of those are generated by Codex, yeah 2015-10-27T15:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame, warweasle: depending on the situation, handler-case would be better 2015-10-27T15:27:00Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:27:03Z DeadTrickster: cool 2015-10-27T15:27:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: For example, in my case, handler-case would have eliminated the explicit return-from and block 2015-10-27T15:27:34Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:27:58Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, so using ceramic api reference as an example close-window((window window)) - can codex generate also link from window to its class definition? 2015-10-27T15:28:16Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:28:30Z DeadTrickster: for example I have three specialized args and I want them to be links in the generated docs 2015-10-27T15:28:43Z DeadTrickster: links pointing to their definition docs 2015-10-27T15:29:15Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: no, and the reason for that is, Codex lets you insert docs anywhere. there's no mandatory 'API Reference' page, you build that yourself. e.g., you can have a single section at the end of the docs with an API reference, or an API reference sub-section in every chapter, or just documentation scattered everywhere, whenever it is mentioned 2015-10-27T15:29:31Z eudoxia: so since Codex doesn't know when or whether you've included some docs it can't autogenerate links 2015-10-27T15:29:44Z eudoxia: (you can include docs multiple times, too, so which one's the canonical version?) 2015-10-27T15:30:16Z eudoxia: you can use CommonDoc's own internal linking mechanism, which works essentially like HTML: you assign an ID to some item of markup and can reference it later 2015-10-27T15:30:43Z White_Flame: warweasle: since your use case seems to be 3d rendering, and that's usually performance-intensive, it would be interesting to take a two-pass approach 2015-10-27T15:30:57Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:31:49Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:31:49Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-27T15:31:49Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:32:20Z White_Flame: where there's a slow pass which captures what output is performed, and would configure variable accesses based on caught conditions, reusing that frame after frame 2015-10-27T15:32:50Z White_Flame: but I guess that does get back into compiler territory 2015-10-27T15:33:17Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T15:33:57Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, yea I understand this idea. however I'm still thinking since it generate doc entry for this class here that ID can be generated automatically together with links from everywhere like examples and/or other docs entries. Or at lease shortcut for that would be nice ) 2015-10-27T15:34:18Z eudoxia: yes it would be 2015-10-27T15:34:40Z eudoxia: hmm 2015-10-27T15:34:43Z DeadTrickster: I understand this will require some smart parsing, but at least predefined setf of forms will work 2015-10-27T15:34:52Z DeadTrickster: s/setf/set/ 2015-10-27T15:34:59Z eudoxia: i'm thinking about using a 'canonical' parameter to tell Codex 'here's the definite location where you should link to this stuff' 2015-10-27T15:35:21Z DeadTrickster: exactly what i'm talking about 2015-10-27T15:35:23Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:36:08Z Wasdaf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T15:36:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:36:45Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-27T15:36:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:39:59Z samssammerz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:40:12Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, actually I was looking for something close to javadoc where everything is tagged and linked 2015-10-27T15:40:27Z eudoxia: yes, that would be ideal 2015-10-27T15:40:50Z eudoxia: and would be quite easy to do... for an API reference generator. Codex's sphinx-style workflow makes it harder 2015-10-27T15:42:39Z DeadTrickster: yeah because codex is more like all-in-one docs generator not just api reference generation tool 2015-10-27T15:43:13Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:45:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T15:45:30Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:47:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:47:24Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:49:22Z eudoxia: yes 2015-10-27T15:50:53Z keen________ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T15:52:01Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, what if I want to replace multi-html with something else what should I do? 2015-10-27T15:52:09Z DeadTrickster: say I want to emit markdown 2015-10-27T15:52:13Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: oh that's not available yet 2015-10-27T15:52:17Z eraaij joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:52:30Z keen________ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:52:31Z eudoxia: basically it's just multi-html 2015-10-27T15:52:37Z DeadTrickster: a-ha 2015-10-27T15:52:42Z DeadTrickster: got ya 2015-10-27T15:52:49Z eudoxia: and if you wanted to emit markdown, you'd lose a lot of stuff, e.g. HTML classes Codex inserts 2015-10-27T15:53:02Z eudoxia: the style of the documentation boxes, for instance 2015-10-27T15:53:05Z Musclor quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T15:53:13Z DeadTrickster: this is not a problem 2015-10-27T15:53:37Z DeadTrickster: at least I want output htmls to be headless 2015-10-27T15:53:45Z DeadTrickster: and body-less ) 2015-10-27T15:54:28Z eudoxia: like 2015-10-27T15:54:32Z eudoxia: just the free-floating HTML 2015-10-27T15:54:42Z eudoxia: no , , other style? 2015-10-27T15:54:48Z DeadTrickster: no body 2015-10-27T15:55:03Z DeadTrickster: I already have template and want embed codex output into this 2015-10-27T15:55:55Z warweasle just realized he can use clinch/pango/et all to create files. PDF, SVG, PNG, etc. 2015-10-27T15:56:04Z eudoxia: hmm 2015-10-27T15:56:41Z warweasle: With rich text and such. 2015-10-27T15:56:43Z eudoxia: i guess you could copy a template, register it, and delete all the HTML outside the content 2015-10-27T15:57:01Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: i'm gonna write an 'empty' template and push it to the repo when i get home 2015-10-27T15:57:37Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-27T15:57:43Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:00:13Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:01:18Z native_killer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:01:30Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:02:30Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:03:31Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, cool 2015-10-27T16:03:47Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, whatabout other output formats? 2015-10-27T16:03:55Z DeadTrickster: do you have plans for this? 2015-10-27T16:03:59Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T16:04:08Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: those will have to wait until I write CommonDoc libraries to emit to those 2015-10-27T16:04:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:04:23Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:04:24Z eudoxia: latex output should be fairly easy, but I haven't done it, since I haven't needed to 2015-10-27T16:04:47Z eudoxia: but of course, i'd like to be able to distribute docs as PDFs 2015-10-27T16:04:55Z DeadTrickster: that is totally fine, I hope empty template will do the job for sometime 2015-10-27T16:05:23Z DeadTrickster: maybe if I ever need more I'll send PR 2015-10-27T16:05:35Z eudoxia: ok 2015-10-27T16:05:51Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:06:46Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:07:22Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T16:07:40Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:08:19Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:08:56Z tankfeeder joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:08:58Z tankfeeder: hi all 2015-10-27T16:09:32Z tankfeeder: eql is not intended for lists, right ? 2015-10-27T16:10:27Z Xach: tankfeeder: it's not usually what you mean, no. 2015-10-27T16:10:50Z White_Flame: eql on lists will test to see if it's the exact same list object; it won't compare contents 2015-10-27T16:12:18Z tankfeeder: wanted replace (nill L) to (eql L NIL) 2015-10-27T16:12:21Z tankfeeder: is it ok ? 2015-10-27T16:12:40Z pjb: tankfeeder: there's no list abstract data type in lisp, so eql would actually check to see if the same cons cell has been passed to it twice. 2015-10-27T16:12:42Z tankfeeder: (null L) 2015-10-27T16:12:47Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:12:49Z tankfeeder: ok 2015-10-27T16:13:00Z pjb: tankfeeder: usually we do the other thing, we replace (eql l nil) by (null l). 2015-10-27T16:13:16Z pjb: tankfeeder: now, if you are processing proper lists, you might actually prefer to use (endp l). 2015-10-27T16:13:39Z tankfeeder: prepearing student for homework. thanks. 2015-10-27T16:14:04Z pjb: endp list list* first rest second third … vs. null cons car cdr cadr caddr … 2015-10-27T16:14:17Z oleo: hello ! 2015-10-27T16:14:19Z pjb: lists vs. trees of cons cells. 2015-10-27T16:15:24Z White_Flame: tankfeeder: your replacement does the exact same thing, yes. All instances of NIL in Lisp are the same singleton. 2015-10-27T16:15:45Z pjb: Well, this is not entirely correct. 2015-10-27T16:15:49Z pjb: You are making assumptions. 2015-10-27T16:15:54Z White_Flame: or at least, there's no way to distinguish one NIL from another 2015-10-27T16:16:20Z White_Flame: so if a list is NIL, it's eq/eql comparable to NIL 2015-10-27T16:16:23Z pjb: (null l) could be read as (CL:NULL L), while (eql L NIL) could be read as (CL:EQL L THIS-PACKAGE:NIL) 2015-10-27T16:17:07Z White_Flame: yes, assuming CL:NIL above, etc 2015-10-27T16:17:17Z pjb: (eql 'cl:nil 'user1::nil) #| --> t |# 2015-10-27T16:17:43Z White_Flame: ie, referring to the given context somebody who's doing intro language learning homework would typically be engaged in 2015-10-27T16:17:52Z pjb: or: (eql 'cl:nil 'user1::nil) #| --> nil |# 2015-10-27T16:17:58Z pjb: who knows? The programmer! 2015-10-27T16:18:11Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:20:37Z Bike: actually,i'm using a SNOBOl readtable, none of this is valid. also, my computer is possessed and i can't type vowels 2015-10-27T16:21:10Z tankfeeder: but google says that EQL do EQ before or numers 2015-10-27T16:22:49Z White_Flame: EQL equates everything that EQ does, plus some more deeper boxed checks 2015-10-27T16:23:04Z White_Flame: EQUAL equates everything that EQL does, plus some more deeper composite checks 2015-10-27T16:23:18Z White_Flame: (as a rough description) 2015-10-27T16:23:21Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:24:03Z tankfeeder: ok 2015-10-27T16:24:09Z White_Flame: EQUALP goes deeper, but ignores string case 2015-10-27T16:24:12Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:24:34Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T16:24:39Z Zhivago: I prefer to think of EQL as testing for current and future equivalence. 2015-10-27T16:25:12Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:26:26Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:28:02Z pjb: (eq a b) => (eql a b) => (equal a b) => (equalp a b). 2015-10-27T16:28:22Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-10-27T16:30:45Z White_Flame: greater-than-or-equals? 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2015-10-27T17:09:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:09:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to add widgets at runtime, and it keeps giving me memory faults 2015-10-27T17:10:14Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:11:24Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:12:00Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:12:05Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:14:44Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:16:49Z Shinmera: You should be able to do it as soon as it's instantiated. 2015-10-27T17:17:00Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:17:03Z Shinmera: What you probably can't do is to do it from a different thread. 2015-10-27T17:17:18Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-10-27T17:17:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, so I have to do some kinda call-back mechanism to interact from the slime repl? 2015-10-27T17:18:01Z Xach: pjb: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-10-27/failure-report/com.informatimago.html#com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-parser is a new failure 2015-10-27T17:18:12Z Musclor joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:18:24Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: For some things yes, for others no. 2015-10-27T17:18:54Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:19:09Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: You'll want to use the Qt events system for that, that should ensure things are happening in the widget's thread. 2015-10-27T17:19:20Z Shinmera: Some trivial wrapper around a signal and slot with a closure should do. 2015-10-27T17:19:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm 2015-10-27T17:20:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks 2015-10-27T17:20:48Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-27T17:21:42Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:22:06Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:25:14Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T17:25:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:27:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T17:29:46Z ZabaQ_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:31:28Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:32:19Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:32:54Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:34:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T17:35:05Z eudoxia_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:35:14Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T17:35:40Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:36:50Z eudoxia_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T17:36:56Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:38:55Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:39:29Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:39:39Z Walex joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:40:00Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:41:59Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:42:36Z Walex2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:42:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T17:43:49Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:44:14Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:45:33Z runneypo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:46:54Z dwrngr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T17:48:21Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:48:25Z megido quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:49:30Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:50:04Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:50:20Z NeverDie_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-27T17:52:23Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:54:47Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:55:08Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T17:57:13Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T17:57:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: How does sbcl's TRACE :wherein argument work? 2015-10-27T17:58:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've tried passing several different things to it, but it never seems to work. 2015-10-27T18:01:53Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:02:46Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:03:18Z vap1 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:04:55Z pjb: Xach: thanks, looking in it. 2015-10-27T18:04:56Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:05:59Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T18:06:08Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:06:38Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:07:06Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:17:23Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:17:42Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T18:19:08Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T18:19:40Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:19:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:24:50Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T18:25:14Z paul0 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:26:13Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:27:41Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-27T18:30:09Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T18:33:31Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:33:31Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T18:34:06Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:37:17Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:38:25Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T18:39:20Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:39:39Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:40:49Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:41:50Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:43:30Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T18:44:35Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-27T18:48:24Z cagmz quit 2015-10-27T18:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: is it possible to manually step the Qt event loop? 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T19:28:49Z ajf-: I want to create a functions that accepts 2 parameters: 1 is a list of numbers: (1 2 3 4 5), two is a list of associations and different actions I want to do on those numbers, e.g. (3 (1 2 3) 5 (2 3 4)), which might not include all of the numbers from the first param. 2015-10-27T19:28:57Z ajf-: I'm confused as how to map the second to the first 2015-10-27T19:29:02Z ajf-: Iteration is not the key here right ? 2015-10-27T19:29:16Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T19:29:32Z ajf-: what data types and procedures should I be using 2015-10-27T19:30:18Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:31:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: actions? 2015-10-27T19:31:18Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:31:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might look at assoc 2015-10-27T19:31:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs assoc 2015-10-27T19:31:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 2015-10-27T19:31:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: or gethash 2015-10-27T19:31:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs gethash 2015-10-27T19:31:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm 2015-10-27T19:32:15Z mbrock joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:33:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the basic idea would be something like (loop for item in list collect (funcall (gethash item actions) item)) 2015-10-27T19:33:43Z ajf-: thanks I'm looking at these 2015-10-27T19:33:49Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T19:33:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where actions was a hashtable who's keys are integer and who's values are lambdas returning whatever you want 2015-10-27T19:34:21Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T19:34:37Z ajf-: clhs progn 2015-10-27T19:34:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 2015-10-27T19:34:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm slightly confused by your problem description. 2015-10-27T19:35:50Z ajf-: well it's kind of complicated to explain, in few words, I'm creating a function that will generate some musical parts for me. Some of those parts I might want to transform, and some I might want to leave with the defaults. 2015-10-27T19:36:11Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-27T19:36:19Z ajf-: so I want to generate parts (1 2 3), but only transform the second with 'transformation' (2 . transformation), which then uses another function to do ti 2015-10-27T19:36:21Z ajf-: *it 2015-10-27T19:37:26Z ajf-: or transform 2 and 3, etc. 2015-10-27T19:38:16Z resttime: Map version: (mapcar (lambda (item) (funcall (gethash item actions) item)) list) 2015-10-27T19:39:48Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:40:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: ping 2015-10-27T19:41:28Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: You can define an override on the general event handler, but I don't know what you mean by "step" 2015-10-27T19:42:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: "step" = run just one iteration of the event loop 2015-10-27T19:43:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think that you can have the effect of the Qt Event Loop just by calling QApplication::processEvents and QApplication::sendPostedEvents inside a Lisp loop 2015-10-27T19:43:31Z Shinmera: No, you can't. 2015-10-27T19:43:52Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:43:56Z Shinmera: Or at least if you do it's going to probably go very badly. 2015-10-27T19:44:06Z Shinmera: I can't tell because I've never had a need for this, so I never tried it. 2015-10-27T19:44:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, python's twisted framework seems to have found some way to coordinate its event loop with Qt's 2015-10-27T19:44:33Z Shinmera: My experience with messing with Qt internals has been rather negative. 2015-10-27T19:46:50Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T19:48:16Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:51:33Z ajf-: clhs let 2015-10-27T19:51:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 2015-10-27T19:53:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T19:54:28Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:55:22Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T19:56:53Z pyon joined #lisp 2015-10-27T19:59:30Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:00:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:01:15Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:02:12Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:02:57Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T20:05:42Z randommelon left #lisp 2015-10-27T20:06:02Z phf: what's the correct way of doing that trick where you have a bunch of functions with prefix and you read a value from user, construct a symbol from that value, and then call it. specifically i have a part where i do (find-symbol (... "prefix/~a" value)). presumably i need to pass package name to find-symbol, but all the prefix/... functions are in the same package as where the code is being defined, and it seems redundant to explicitly 2015-10-27T20:06:02Z phf: provide package. would something like (find-symbol ... #.*package*) work, or should i be using something other then find-symbol? 2015-10-27T20:06:30Z White_Flame: ajf-: it looks like your lookup list is a p-list (key val key val ...). the GETF accessor will look up values from that type of list 2015-10-27T20:06:52Z ajf-: wrong username 2015-10-27T20:07:00Z White_Flame: similarly to how ASSOC looks up associations in a-list ((key . val) (key . val) ...) 2015-10-27T20:07:06Z ajf-: or not ? 2015-10-27T20:07:19Z ajf-: aha 2015-10-27T20:07:24Z ajf-: I'll look into it White_Flame 2015-10-27T20:07:28Z ajf-: thank you 2015-10-27T20:07:50Z nyef: phf: IIRC, packages are externalizable, so the #.*package* thing should work. Also don't forget that symbol names are case sensitive. 2015-10-27T20:07:54Z White_Flame: specifically your example of (3 (1 2 3) 5 (2 3 4)), assuming that means its lookups are 3 -> (1 2 3), 5 -> (2 3 4) 2015-10-27T20:08:04Z White_Flame: that's a "p-list" 2015-10-27T20:08:33Z White_Flame: (I guess the CLHS calls it "plist" if you're searching) 2015-10-27T20:09:20Z ajf-: thank you 2015-10-27T20:10:02Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:10:32Z White_Flame: phf: often *package* on its own works, instead of needing #.*package* 2015-10-27T20:10:58Z White_Flame: that's generally set at compile/load time by the (in-package ...) statement at the top of the file currently being loaded 2015-10-27T20:11:39Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T20:13:31Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:14:07Z phf: White_Flame: (in-package :a) (defun prefix/foo ()) (defun bar (a) (funcall (find-symbol (format nil "PREFIX/~a" a) *package*))) (in-package :b) (a::bar "foo") 2015-10-27T20:14:52Z phf: err, missing string-upcase, but (a::bar "FOO") illustrates 2015-10-27T20:15:02Z mbrock: whoa, I ran into segfaults in both cl-git and woo when resuming from a saved core on sbcl... and managed to fix them by doing some reinitialization in sb-ext:*init-hooks*... I feel like a super hacker. 2015-10-27T20:15:32Z mbrock: are people using saved core images a lot? it's really amazing how fast they boot 2015-10-27T20:15:58Z phf: White_Flame: at the time of (a::bar ...) *package* is bound to <package b>, hence find-symbol will fail 2015-10-27T20:16:16Z Xach: mbrock: i don't used saved cores a lot, but i do make executables quite a bit. 2015-10-27T20:16:19Z White_Flame: which is what I thought you wanted; it's the current package at the call-site 2015-10-27T20:16:25Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:16:27Z Xach: mbrock: i should probably start using saved cores more 2015-10-27T20:16:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:16:46Z White_Flame: #.*package* would read the current package at the implementation site 2015-10-27T20:17:28Z White_Flame: and *package* at application runtime would be the package the app was launched from, probably cl-user 2015-10-27T20:17:34Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:17:49Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T20:18:06Z White_Flame: building up symbols tends to be at macroexpand-time 2015-10-27T20:18:12Z dlowe: the executables are just compressed saved cores, right? 2015-10-27T20:18:14Z White_Flame: so I don't know exactly what your use case is 2015-10-27T20:19:16Z ajf-: clhs max 2015-10-27T20:19:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_max_m.htm 2015-10-27T20:19:17Z White_Flame: mbrock: I've never used them for dev environments, but have built executables. I know somebody here had been using a single image for years 2015-10-27T20:19:21Z phf: White_Flame: you basically just wanted to talk, i get it dude 2015-10-27T20:19:56Z White_Flame: I'm trying to answer your question, and being explicit to see if I'm matching your assumptions 2015-10-27T20:20:14Z Xach: dlowe: i don't usually compress 2015-10-27T20:23:08Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:23:42Z mbrock: :) it's for web apps, and I wanna boot from image for speed and then also recompile/reload with asdf for deploying new stuff... if it works, that's super cool. since they boot *instantly*, I could even use e.g. systemd's "socket activation" if I wanted 2015-10-27T20:24:23Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:25:12Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:25:31Z White_Flame: mbrock: deployment is absolutely an appropriate use of saved images, executable or not 2015-10-27T20:26:39Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:28:07Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:29:01Z ajf-: clhs sort 2015-10-27T20:29:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 2015-10-27T20:30:05Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-27T20:30:16Z ajf-: #'< 2015-10-27T20:30:17Z ajf-: :D 2015-10-27T20:31:11Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:32:27Z ajf-: feels nice when you start to get this 2015-10-27T20:33:37Z ajf-: clhs plist 2015-10-27T20:33:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for plist. 2015-10-27T20:33:44Z ajf-: clhs p-list 2015-10-27T20:33:44Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for p-list. 2015-10-27T20:33:45Z warweasle: White_Flame: I've been playing with my dynamic-let (dlet) and it works in all cases, except when I want to call UP the hierarchy, which is acceptable to me. 2015-10-27T20:34:31Z White_Flame: warweasle: yeah, if you don't do that, then it's pretty easy 2015-10-27T20:36:12Z warweasle: White_Flame: And outside of the *parent* variable, I haven't reused any dynamic variables. I was thinking width & height, but it's much nicer to know I'm calling (width *texture*) or (width *window*) 2015-10-27T20:37:10Z White_Flame: yeah, when you said "DOM", that usually implies something much more generic. But since you can code to a very particular runtime context, that works 2015-10-27T20:37:15Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T20:39:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:40:46Z dlowe: clhs getf 2015-10-27T20:40:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 2015-10-27T20:40:50Z dlowe: ajf-^ 2015-10-27T20:41:02Z ajf-: yes looking now, works great 2015-10-27T20:41:03Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-27T20:41:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:41:39Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-27T20:51:09Z warweasle: In a lisp tree where two nodes are the same. Is there a utility to insert a (let ...) around them for pretty printing? 2015-10-27T20:52:29Z White_Flame: *print-circle* will replace multiple occurrences of the same cons cell with #n# tags 2015-10-27T20:52:40Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T20:53:04Z warweasle: White_Flame: Right. It works. No need to get crazy. 2015-10-27T20:54:15Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:54:30Z blubjr: right it works.....no need to get crazy 2015-10-27T20:55:59Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:56:14Z ajf-: mapcar maps upto the shortest list from &rest lists+ 2015-10-27T20:56:17Z ajf-: that can't be avoided right ? 2015-10-27T20:56:26Z pjb: right. 2015-10-27T20:56:32Z ajf-: e.g. filling up with default values 2015-10-27T20:56:39Z pjb: nope. 2015-10-27T20:56:40Z ktx_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-27T20:56:59Z pjb: ajf-: you can write (my-mapcar fun default-value &rest lists+) 2015-10-27T20:57:05Z pjb: you're a programmer, no? 2015-10-27T20:57:36Z ajf-: yes a ruler of the elements 2015-10-27T20:57:40Z pjb: good. 2015-10-27T20:57:45Z pjb: Write your own rule! 2015-10-27T20:58:39Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-10-27T20:58:40Z White_Flame: btw, LOOPing over 2 lists does the same thing, only iterating until 1 finishes 2015-10-27T20:58:55Z pjb: Depends on how you loop. 2015-10-27T20:59:30Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-27T20:59:53Z pjb: (let ((a '(1 2)) (b '(a b c d e))) (loop for x = (pop a) for y = (pop b) collect (list x y) while (or a b))) #| --> ((1 a) (2 b) (nil c) (nil d) (nil e)) |# 2015-10-27T21:00:10Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:00:46Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T21:01:13Z ajf-: mm how about a function that spans a list onto another, filling up the gap with defaults ? 2015-10-27T21:01:22Z pjb: What? 2015-10-27T21:01:33Z pjb: You mean more than one default value? 2015-10-27T21:01:34Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:01:42Z pjb: You're a programmer, no? Write your own rule! 2015-10-27T21:01:58Z ajf-: k k 2015-10-27T21:02:01Z White_Flame: spans & gaps sound more suited to vectors 2015-10-27T21:02:28Z phf: nyef: just fyi, found place in spec where it says that packages are externalizable http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdbb.htm 2015-10-27T21:02:51Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:03:10Z pjb: phf: Great! Thanks. 2015-10-27T21:04:09Z pjb: phf: well, ok, but: "Note that although a package object is an externalizable object, the programmer is responsible for ensuring that the corresponding package is already in existence when code referencing it as a literal object is loaded. The loader finds the corresponding package object as if by calling find-package with that name as an argument. An error is signaled by the loader if no package exists at load time. " 2015-10-27T21:05:17Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:05:33Z phf: right, but in the case of #.*package* that should be satisfied? 2015-10-27T21:05:53Z pjb: No it cannot. 2015-10-27T21:06:19Z NeverDie_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T21:06:55Z pjb: You can compile a file that contains just (defun f () #.*package*) in a package that is never saved anywhere. When loading the compiled file in a new image, you could expect an error or other nasal daemons. 2015-10-27T21:06:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:06:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-27T21:06:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:07:25Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:07:35Z pjb: ? (load "/tmp/p.lx64fsl") > Error: There is no package named "P" . 2015-10-27T21:07:35Z pjb: 2015-10-27T21:08:02Z phf: oh like (defpackage :foo (:use cl)) (in-package :foo) (compile-file #p"test.lisp") (delete-package :foo) ... 2015-10-27T21:08:12Z pjb: yes. 2015-10-27T21:09:37Z pjb: I tend to use (load-time-value (find-package "P")) instead. 2015-10-27T21:10:58Z pjb: It shows more clearly when the package "P" should be defined. 2015-10-27T21:11:09Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T21:11:13Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:11:42Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:12:54Z phf: original goal was to remove redudancy from (find-symbol "DISPATCH/~a" :package-name) when all the dispatch/foo are defined in the same package as find-symbol's caller 2015-10-27T21:13:44Z pjb: (find-symbol (format nil "DISPATCH/~a" tail) (load-time-value (find-package "PACKAGE-NAME"))) 2015-10-27T21:14:19Z pjb: phf: if you want the same package as the caller of find-symbol then #.*package* is dead wrong. 2015-10-27T21:14:28Z pjb: function (callers) don't have packages. 2015-10-27T21:14:58Z pjb: You could do: (defun f () (find-symbol (format nil "DISPATCH/~a" tail) (load-time-value (find-package #.(package-name (symbol-package 'f)))))) 2015-10-27T21:15:19Z pjb: Or perhaps: (defun #1=f () (find-symbol (format nil "DISPATCH/~a" tail) (load-time-value (find-package #.(package-name (symbol-package '#1#)))))) 2015-10-27T21:16:22Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:16:31Z White_Flame: and if you want to be super defensive about read case, (format nil "~a/~a" (symbol-name 'dispatch) tail) 2015-10-27T21:16:42Z pjb: Indeed. 2015-10-27T21:16:51Z phf: pjb: ok, that first form captures the intent perfectly 2015-10-27T21:16:55Z White_Flame: though there are plenty of edge case differences between compile-time & runtime for that as well 2015-10-27T21:17:13Z pjb: phf: #.*package* doesn't. *package* is unrelated to (symbol-package 'f). 2015-10-27T21:17:37Z pjb: You need to know what you mean. 2015-10-27T21:18:49Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T21:19:17Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:22:02Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-27T21:23:02Z ajf-: clhs voice 2015-10-27T21:23:02Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for voice. 2015-10-27T21:25:07Z White_Flame: ajf-: you can privately message specbot, if you're going to use it a lot 2015-10-27T21:25:15Z ajf-: ah thanks ok 2015-10-27T21:25:43Z White_Flame: C-c C-d h in SLIME when the cursor is on a symbol hits the hyperspec as well 2015-10-27T21:31:28Z phf: pjb: i'm failing to see how #.*package* is unrelated to (symbol-package 'f) though, that's where read of 'f happened 2015-10-27T21:35:35Z mea-culpa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:38:44Z pjb: phf: Try: (defpackage "P" (:use "CL")) (in-package "P") '(defun f () (let ((strange #.(setf *package* (find-package "CL-USER")))) (find-symbol (format nil "~A/~a" :dispatch :foo) #.*package*))) 2015-10-27T21:39:27Z phf: ah 2015-10-27T21:39:36Z pjb: or Try: (in-package "CL-USER") (defun p:f () (find-symbol (format nil "~A/~a" :dispatch :foo) #.*package*)) 2015-10-27T21:39:37Z phf: oh 2015-10-27T21:40:07Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:44:48Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T21:45:13Z White_Flame: s/#.*package*/(symbol-package 'f)/ doesn't seem to change the behavior of either of those examples 2015-10-27T21:45:42Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:45:48Z phf: no, only of second one 2015-10-27T21:46:05Z pjb: Just by chance. Those two expressions don't say the same thing. It just happen that the evaluate to the same thing in your circumstances. 2015-10-27T21:46:10Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T21:46:39Z White_Flame: the one situation that I can see is if 'F or whatever chosen symbol happens to be imported from elsewhere 2015-10-27T21:46:43Z pjb: (defpackage "Q" (:export "F")) (defpackage "P" (:use "CL" "Q")) (in-package "P") (defun f …) 2015-10-27T21:46:48Z pjb: indeed. 2015-10-27T21:47:01Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:47:10Z pjb: it happens more often than you'd think, eg. with generic functions and defmethod. 2015-10-27T21:47:41Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-27T21:48:35Z pjb: You could as well say *package-where-to-intern-run-time-symbols* and if you set the circumstances right, when the function is called and this variable is evaluated, it will still return the same package. But you wouldn't have said the same thing. 2015-10-27T21:48:35Z newdan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T21:48:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs #. 2015-10-27T21:48:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 2015-10-27T21:48:58Z pjb: (let ((*package-where-to-intern-run-time-symbols* (find-package "some other package"))) (f)) ;<-- see, not the same meaning. 2015-10-27T21:49:45Z White_Flame: but #.*package* does make sense for the case of "package where this source code is defaulting to" and avoids the imports 2015-10-27T21:50:15Z White_Flame: ...avoids the problems of imports yanking the context elsewhere 2015-10-27T21:50:39Z pjb: Yes some specific cases, ok. 2015-10-27T21:51:15Z pjb: In general, I find using a variable bound explicitely to the wanted package is better (since it allows to change the package if needed). 2015-10-27T21:51:59Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T21:52:24Z White_Flame: for macro use, I tend to use *package* inside the macroexpand-time code to represent the call-site package, but for runtime use I either explicitly bind *package* or pass something in 2015-10-27T21:52:33Z White_Flame: but that's kind of unenforceable programmer discipline 2015-10-27T21:53:31Z pjb: Notably, we often want to intern run-time symbols into dedicated packages, not into source packages. 2015-10-27T21:53:39Z pjb: Or even throwable dedicated packages. 2015-10-27T21:53:53Z White_Flame: that's been my experience as well 2015-10-27T21:55:03Z White_Flame: but since runtime use often includes the reader as well, explicitly managing *package* tends to come as part of the package </pun intended> 2015-10-27T21:55:54Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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The point is that you have to say what you mean. 2015-10-27T22:15:23Z phf: there's no guarantee that by the time you're asking for f's package, you can find f to begin with 2015-10-27T22:15:31Z pjb: (symbol-package 'f) means the same package as the home package of the symbol f. 2015-10-27T22:15:45Z pjb: This is quite some kind of indirection! 2015-10-27T22:16:08Z pjb: I find it much better to say *the-package-I-want-for-this* and to explicitely bind the package I want for this to that variable. 2015-10-27T22:17:46Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:18:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:19:35Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:20:19Z phf: thanks, pjb, a lot to grok 2015-10-27T22:22:17Z attila_lendvai: any quick hints on how to turn an FFI struct into a byte array? (I want to hex dump a struct using ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string, but I'm open for alternatives) 2015-10-27T22:22:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-27T22:23:59Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:26:47Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T22:27:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:28:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:28:31Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:28:42Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T22:29:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:29:39Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:33:18Z cagmz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:33:33Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:34:43Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-27T22:35:28Z phf: attila_lendvai: i did that recently. ccl and cmucl (don't know about others or cffi) have facility to allocate foreign array on heap that gives you a lisp vector and a foreign pointer. i'd pass the pointer to whatever produces ffi struct and then run ironclad:byte-... on the vector 2015-10-27T22:35:58Z phf: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter13.11.html and https://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/aliens.html#toc270 respectively 2015-10-27T22:36:32Z attila_lendvai: oh, right, thanks phf! 2015-10-27T22:36:59Z cagmz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:38:25Z mordocai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T22:38:42Z pillton: phf: You can also allocate a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) and call CFFI:WITH-POINTER-TO-VECTOR-DATA. 2015-10-27T22:39:52Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:41:33Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-10-27T22:42:49Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:43:11Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T22:45:32Z randommelon joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:45:59Z ajf-: (print (format nil "Value of X: ~a" x)) 2015-10-27T22:46:29Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:47:11Z White_Flame: (format t "Value of X: ~a" x) 2015-10-27T22:47:18Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-27T22:47:41Z White_Flame: and probably want a ~% at the end to insert a newline 2015-10-27T22:48:10Z ajf-: exactly thanks 2015-10-27T22:48:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T22:49:42Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:50:51Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:52:13Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-27T22:53:34Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T22:56:29Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-27T22:58:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-27T23:02:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:04:00Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T23:04:22Z cagmz_ quit 2015-10-27T23:12:41Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:13:43Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:20:19Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T23:20:20Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:20:48Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:22:33Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:22:36Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:22:57Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T23:22:59Z faalentijn: After reading the history of lisp I kinda feel bad for learning Common Lisp as an European 2015-10-27T23:23:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:23:45Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:25:15Z randommelon: faalentjin, what do you mean? 2015-10-27T23:25:43Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:26:46Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-27T23:27:06Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:27:59Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:28:01Z Xach: cl was in part meant to stymie european efforts towards a similar thing 2015-10-27T23:28:07Z Xach: peter's talk goes into it a bit 2015-10-27T23:30:44Z randommelon: Interesting, where is this talk? 2015-10-27T23:30:48Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-27T23:31:41Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:32:35Z faalentijn: randommelon: Europeans got their panties in a bunch because CL was another American standard 2015-10-27T23:32:54Z Xach: randommelon: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp 2015-10-27T23:32:57Z faalentijn: And since Europe, at the time, had a totally different landscape they didn't like it 2015-10-27T23:33:21Z faalentijn: So they decided to make their own Lisp standard called EuLisp and rivaled Common Lisp as the Lisp standard. 2015-10-27T23:33:36Z Zhivago: In the end, they succeeded. 2015-10-27T23:33:54Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:34:20Z randommelon: that's interesting, was not aware of any of this 2015-10-27T23:34:22Z raphaelss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-27T23:34:34Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:34:35Z Xach: rpg went to europe specifically to delay and confuse, per peter's talk 2015-10-27T23:37:28Z randommelon: I will listen to the talk when I have time 2015-10-27T23:37:32Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:37:35Z faalentijn: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 2015-10-27T23:37:39Z faalentijn: Here is the paper I read 2015-10-27T23:38:21Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:38:32Z White_Flame: Are there any specific advancements that EuLisp had that CL didn't? 2015-10-27T23:38:54Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-27T23:40:00Z faalentijn: "By the end of 1986, it was clear that the European Lisp community would eventually produce a 2015-10-27T23:40:03Z faalentijn: new Lisp dialect, which would be informally called EuLisp, and that the same community intended 2015-10-27T23:40:05Z faalentijn: to start an ISO effort to standardize this dialect. 2015-10-27T23:40:07Z faalentijn: EuLisp is a dialect of Lisp defined in layers, with a very small kernel language and increasingly 2015-10-27T23:40:09Z faalentijn: larger ones, the goal being to have a Common-Lisp-sized layer. EuLisp has an object-oriented 2015-10-27T23:40:11Z faalentijn: facility, modules, multitasking, and a condition system. It is a Lisp-1 2015-10-27T23:40:13Z faalentijn: " 2015-10-27T23:41:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:41:01Z White_Flame: so it was probably more of an API organizational differentiation, not something like Genera where good ideas died with the system 2015-10-27T23:41:38Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:42:48Z White_Flame: "[It's a Lisp-1 with CLOS, defined in layers & modules] Otherwise, EuLisp is Common-Lisp like, with more commonality than 2015-10-27T23:42:48Z White_Flame: disjointness." 2015-10-27T23:42:52Z faalentijn: White_Flame: I don't know. Read the EuLisp definition. 2015-10-27T23:43:07Z faalentijn: I'm not smart enough to, probably, comprehend it. 2015-10-27T23:43:32Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:43:35Z White_Flame is always on the lookout for good ideas of the past that didn't catch on 2015-10-27T23:44:37Z jasom thought the eulisp efforts ended up with islisp? 2015-10-27T23:45:23Z dwchandler is always on the lookout for bad ideas of the past that DID catch on, so he can avoid them 2015-10-27T23:45:41Z faalentijn: jasom: It seems that way. Their description of it sounds very similar to EuLisp 2015-10-27T23:46:46Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-27T23:47:25Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:47:58Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:48:50Z phoe_krk: I have a string "(function arg1 arg2 arg3)". What's the Lisp way to turn it into an actual (function arg1 arg2 arg3)? Something like "read" would do, just reading from a string, not a stream. 2015-10-27T23:48:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:49:31Z phoe_krk: ...read-from-string. I see. 2015-10-27T23:49:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T23:50:44Z cmack` joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:51:29Z axion: be careful with read* though 2015-10-27T23:51:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:52:36Z randommelon: Gotta go, thanks for the information - might never have found out about this interesting part of Common Lisp's history otherwise :) 2015-10-27T23:52:45Z faalentijn: You're welcome 2015-10-27T23:52:50Z phoe_krk: axion: I'm not using it to eval anything 2015-10-27T23:53:03Z randommelon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-27T23:53:06Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-27T23:53:24Z jasom: phoe_krk: even if you aren't using it to eval anything it's not safe 2015-10-27T23:53:25Z phoe_krk: axion: I'm building up a micro-Lisp interpreter as a way of sending input into my program 2015-10-27T23:54:21Z phoe_krk: jasom: I want to send commands of form (move x y) and interpret them by read, kicking out any errors through unwind-protect. is there a better approach? 2015-10-27T23:54:39Z jasom: phoe_krk: beyond the obvious (read-from-string "#.(do-something-malicious)") there is just the case that the lisp reader implementations weren't designed for a hostile environment 2015-10-27T23:55:19Z phoe_krk: jasom: it's going to be a client, not a server. if someone wants to fuck their own client up, I don't see any problem with it. 2015-10-27T23:55:27Z jasom: phoe_krk: then it's fine 2015-10-27T23:55:28Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:55:53Z jasom: don't use read for untrusted input; using it for trusted input is fine 2015-10-27T23:58:50Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-27T23:58:59Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-27T23:59:00Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-27T23:59:53Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T00:00:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T00:00:27Z phoe_krk: jasom: I know that. whenever I'm using read, I interpret that as letting anyone access directly into my LISP image. 2015-10-28T00:00:54Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:01:20Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:01:48Z phoe_krk: in case of my client: this is what I *want* 2015-10-28T00:01:57Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:02:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:02:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T00:02:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:03:04Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:03:04Z jlarocco_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:03:30Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:03:41Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:04:05Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T00:04:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:04:16Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:04:18Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:05:02Z phryk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T00:05:16Z phryk joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:08:38Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T00:08:57Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:10:27Z reb`` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:10:38Z reb` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:15:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:16:17Z axion: what must i do to have slime indent a macro call correctly? 2015-10-28T00:16:43Z axion: or is it paredit..not sure 2015-10-28T00:16:57Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T00:17:14Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:17:30Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:18:08Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-28T00:18:10Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-28T00:19:04Z attila_lendvai: axion: slime needs to be connected and the package loaded into the cl side (indentation consults the cl side in the background) 2015-10-28T00:19:41Z axion: attila_lendvai: i'm using M-q to indent a form, and this one particular macro call's 2nd line is indented 14 spaces instead of the usual 2 2015-10-28T00:20:15Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:20:38Z attila_lendvai: axion: it can also be a package issue. functions are indented like that (if it's a long name). 2015-10-28T00:20:48Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:21:01Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:21:07Z axion: it's not long at all 2015-10-28T00:21:34Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:21:54Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:22:03Z White_Flame: basically, if the parameter is known to SLIME that it's declared as &body, it indents by 2. Otherwise, it indents to align with the elements in the prior line 2015-10-28T00:22:22Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T00:23:34Z axion: White_Flame: is there a problem with this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/157621 2015-10-28T00:24:19Z cmack` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:24:56Z White_Flame: looks fine to me. Are you sure your first line is just "(%with-vector (foo bar)" and doesn't start the body on that line already? 2015-10-28T00:25:41Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T00:25:59Z axion: White_Flame: i added an annotation to that paste with how i call it and how it's indented 2015-10-28T00:26:05Z White_Flame: beyond that, ensuring that %with-vector in your editor points to the same package instance as the code 2015-10-28T00:26:21Z axion: and yes it does 2015-10-28T00:26:30Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:26:38Z bbz quit 2015-10-28T00:26:39Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:27:10Z White_Flame: does pressing M-. on %with-vector in your source file properly jump to the defmacro? 2015-10-28T00:28:28Z axion: i've never used that, i'm new to emacs. but everything seems to say the function is void: equalp 2015-10-28T00:28:43Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-28T00:29:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T00:29:35Z axion: i'm migrating from vim, where i remember modifying this macro's argument list so that it indents properly there...now using emacs it does not 2015-10-28T00:31:49Z White_Flame: if M-. jumps to the definition of a symbol, that means it properly understands it. If it doesn't jump, the bottom row will tell you, with what package it thinks that symbol is from 2015-10-28T00:32:12Z White_Flame: If it's not indenting properly, chances are it thinks it's something else 2015-10-28T00:32:37Z axion: and just to be clear M-. for you is slime-edit-definition? 2015-10-28T00:32:40Z White_Flame: (M-. is Alt-. on most default keyboard layouts) 2015-10-28T00:32:47Z White_Flame: yeah 2015-10-28T00:32:48Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:33:21Z axion: well no matter what i press M-. on I get this at the bottom: Symbol's function definition is void: equalp 2015-10-28T00:33:38Z White_Flame: move the cursor on top of %with-vector 2015-10-28T00:33:44Z axion: same 2015-10-28T00:34:07Z White_Flame: well, that's out of my pay range :-P 2015-10-28T00:34:15Z axion: hehe ok thanks 2015-10-28T00:34:45Z White_Flame: but yeah, something's screwy with SLIME. check *inferior-lisp* for any weird error messages, make sure everything SLIME/SWANK-related is loading as it should 2015-10-28T00:35:04Z White_Flame: (the emacs buffer named "*inferior-lisp*", not a lisp variable) 2015-10-28T00:35:49Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:36:05Z White_Flame: there's also *slime-events* and *slime-xref* which might show errors, too 2015-10-28T00:36:21Z axion: i see a couple warnings, that's all 2015-10-28T00:36:21Z White_Flame: but *inferior-lisp* catches the default stdout of the running lisp 2015-10-28T00:37:40Z axion: and i do not have a *slime-xref* 2015-10-28T00:37:46Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:40:11Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-28T00:40:48Z NeverDie quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T00:40:48Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-28T00:43:21Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:44:32Z axion: White_Flame: if i call slime-edit-definition manually and type %with-vector in, it works, but not with M-. 2015-10-28T00:45:03Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:45:38Z stokachu quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T00:45:38Z stokachu joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:47:26Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T00:48:49Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:48:49Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T00:49:06Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:51:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T00:52:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:55:48Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-28T00:56:16Z badkins quit 2015-10-28T00:57:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T01:02:51Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:03:25Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:03:31Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-28T01:04:08Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:04:52Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T01:05:06Z ec\ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-28T01:11:07Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:11:18Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-10-28T01:11:43Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T01:11:43Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:13:32Z newbie joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:13:54Z newbie is now known as Guest41344 2015-10-28T01:14:28Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:14:31Z Guest41344: hi lispers! question: how can I get BigDecimals ? 2015-10-28T01:14:46Z Guest41344: ... in CL 2015-10-28T01:14:54Z Guest41344: ... of course.. 2015-10-28T01:15:41Z Xach: Guest41344: i use wu-decimal for that sometimes. 2015-10-28T01:15:50Z Xach: Guest41344: it uses rationals to do what it does. 2015-10-28T01:16:29Z Guest41344: Xach: oh thanks! I will check now, is in Quicklisp? 2015-10-28T01:16:35Z Xach: Guest41344: yes 2015-10-28T01:16:47Z Guest41344: Xach: wonderful! 2015-10-28T01:16:56Z Xach: https://wukix.com/lisp-decimals has the docs 2015-10-28T01:17:23Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T01:17:27Z Guest41344: Xach: thanks again :)! 2015-10-28T01:17:38Z White_Flame: big integers are there by default, if that suffices 2015-10-28T01:18:55Z Guest41344 quit 2015-10-28T01:22:39Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:22:50Z ec\ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:22:53Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:22:54Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T01:23:29Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:25:46Z reb`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T01:26:12Z reb`` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:26:36Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:26:59Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T01:28:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T01:34:14Z cmoneylu_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:34:18Z cmoneylu_ is now known as cmoney 2015-10-28T01:35:54Z anderoonies joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:36:22Z anderoonies: hi! i have a question about summing the values in nested hash tables 2015-10-28T01:39:40Z anderoonies: i have a trie structure with a hash table mapping to sub-tries and i'm trying to count the number of subtries that have a word, the code is something like this : http://pastebin.com/AYnrnDub 2015-10-28T01:41:11Z anderoonies: mapc-trie applies a function to the immediate children of a trie 2015-10-28T01:42:11Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:43:45Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: phoe_krk) 2015-10-28T01:44:07Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:44:31Z axion: problem solved. seems to be a bug with slime. sly is working good with M-. 2015-10-28T01:47:00Z gendl: axion: what is sly? 2015-10-28T01:48:33Z axion: gendl: https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly/blob/master/README.md#fork 2015-10-28T01:49:21Z SHODAN quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T01:50:59Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:53:03Z reb`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T01:53:09Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:53:23Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T01:53:28Z reb`` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T01:55:35Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T01:57:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-28T01:59:23Z earl-ducaine: axion: That's incredibly cool. Amazing work..... Makes me wonder. With slynk-rpc.lisp could you actually wring emacs packages in CL? 2015-10-28T02:00:10Z emma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T02:00:27Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:00:46Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T02:02:02Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T02:02:41Z earl-ducaine: axion: or ffi. One of the huge frustrations in elisp is that, by design apparently, it doesn't support cffi. 2015-10-28T02:03:38Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:06:23Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T02:07:16Z Xach: cffi? or ffi in general? 2015-10-28T02:08:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-28T02:09:40Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:09:57Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:11:33Z earl-ducaine: Well, cffi support in elisp was what I was specifically looking for. 2015-10-28T02:12:32Z Xach: cffi is a CL program, so that seems like it could never work. it's two different worlds. 2015-10-28T02:13:32Z earl-ducaine: Xach: oh ic, i meant 'cffi' in the general sense of c foreign function interface. 2015-10-28T02:13:56Z earl-ducaine: not as in the specific program. 2015-10-28T02:14:12Z Xach: oh. that has often been called just FFI. 2015-10-28T02:16:44Z phf: so python now has "cffi" which is "C Foreign Function Interface for Python" which also comes up third after a bunch of random things on ddg 2015-10-28T02:17:09Z phf: expect much confusion 2015-10-28T02:17:27Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:17:47Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:18:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:19:54Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T02:19:54Z Aberrant_Routine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:20:33Z Xach: i wonder when cffi for python started. 2015-10-28T02:22:14Z kyfho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T02:23:23Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T02:23:39Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T02:24:14Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-28T03:55:20Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T03:57:01Z drmeister: minon:memo for beach: I specialized on (cleavir-generate-ast:convert :around (form environment (system clasp-64bit))...) http://paste.lisp.org/display/157634 2015-10-28T03:57:10Z drmeister: minion:memo for beach: I specialized on (cleavir-generate-ast:convert :around (form environment (system clasp-64bit))...) http://paste.lisp.org/display/157634 2015-10-28T03:57:18Z drmeister: Dag nab it. 2015-10-28T03:57:32Z drmeister: minion:memo for beach: I specialized on (cleavir-generate-ast:convert :around (form environment (system clasp-64bit))...) 2015-10-28T03:57:45Z drmeister: minion: memo for beach: I specialized on (cleavir-generate-ast:convert :around (form environment (system clasp-64bit))...) http://paste.lisp.org/display/157634 2015-10-28T03:57:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-10-28T03:58:00Z axion: White_Flame: no 2015-10-28T03:58:01Z White_Flame: beach is going to have fun when he returns 2015-10-28T03:58:07Z axion: however it works with a fork of slime (sly) 2015-10-28T03:59:00Z drmeister: I build up my own mini-environment by keeping track of when FLET and LABELS are entered. 2015-10-28T03:59:53Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T04:02:24Z axion: White_Flame: i just found the issue 2015-10-28T04:04:06Z axion: i replaced melpa's slime (slime-20151021.1304) with slime from git. which is weird, because the last commit is 20151021 2015-10-28T04:04:52Z White_Flame: yeah, slime checkouts are normally "hot" in my experience, may nor may not be fully debugged 2015-10-28T04:05:39Z axion: that just wasted 4 hours 2015-10-28T04:05:54Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-28T04:05:58Z axion: i'm not keeping slime in sync from now on...my own version that works 2015-10-28T04:06:21Z White_Flame: sure, I've luckily not had a problem such as that before, so it didn't come to mind 2015-10-28T04:06:36Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T04:08:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:12:34Z fiddlerwoaroof dtrace -F is pretty nifty 2015-10-28T04:12:53Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:14:58Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T04:15:53Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:19:19Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:19:26Z kp666 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T04:24:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:24:53Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:24:58Z bgs100 quit (Quit: brb) 2015-10-28T04:27:06Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:29:34Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T04:30:20Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:30:34Z sheilong quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-28T04:30:48Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-10-28T04:31:11Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T04:35:39Z NeverDie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T04:35:42Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:35:59Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:37:13Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:39:19Z NeverDie_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T04:40:11Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:49:18Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T04:49:28Z H4ns quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T04:51:26Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T04:52:05Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T04:52:41Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:53:03Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:55:08Z karswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T04:56:01Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:56:42Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T04:56:54Z H4ns joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:00:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:03:07Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Where can I find it? 2015-10-28T05:07:38Z loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm#find 2015-10-28T05:08:45Z loke: Actually, I was reading the docs for MEMBER, and it contains even less information than that of FIND. 2015-10-28T05:11:53Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/17_bb.htm 2015-10-28T05:12:17Z White_Flame: same thing in "Satisfying a Two-Argument Test" 2015-10-28T05:12:26Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:12:29Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-28T05:12:54Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:14:51Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:17:14Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:18:16Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T05:23:13Z kjak joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:23:40Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:25:38Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:25:40Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:25:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-28T05:25:50Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: I hacked a code-walker on top of Cleavir for generic function optimization. 2015-10-28T05:25:50Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: I specialized on (cleavir-generate-ast:convert :around (form environment (system clasp-64bit))...) http://paste.lisp.org/display/157634 2015-10-28T05:25:59Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-28T05:26:14Z White_Flame: re 2015-10-28T05:30:39Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:30:47Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:32:15Z Quadrescence: beach, have you ever looked at https://github.com/MLton/mlton ? If not, it may be of some inspiration. 2015-10-28T05:33:10Z jsgrant_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T05:34:04Z beach: Quadrescence: I have not looked at that. I think it would be a lot of work for me to derive inspiration from it, given that I don't know ML. Though perhaps there is some language-independent documentation. What kind of inspiration did you have in mind? 2015-10-28T05:35:26Z Quadrescence: beach, ML is such a simple language with large overlap with Lisp (to some extent). Maybe you could derive inspiration on whole program optimization, type inference, compiler structure, dealing with some peculiar extensions they've implemented (e.g., resource limiting). 2015-10-28T05:35:37Z Quadrescence: Or, it could just be a big distraction. :) 2015-10-28T05:36:27Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:36:34Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:37:51Z beach: I'll keep it in mind. I think it would be a lot of work, especially since I am quite read up on most subjects, and I am very happy with the current Cleavir structure. The environment-independent ASTs turn out to be great for inlining, and the intermediate representation lends itself to all standard optimization algorithms I have read about. 2015-10-28T05:38:16Z beach: But thanks for the tip. I'll consider it for distraction. 2015-10-28T05:38:47Z beach: I would have to start by learning ML, I guess. Now which ML? Standard ML, CaML? 2015-10-28T05:39:07Z Quadrescence: Standard ML is a little more "academic" and is easier to digest, in my opinion. 2015-10-28T05:39:26Z Quadrescence: OCaml is popular with the French, which may appease you. :) 2015-10-28T05:39:35Z Quadrescence: But both are mutually intelligible for the most part. 2015-10-28T05:39:45Z blubjr: sml vs ocaml is a lot like scheme vs cl in a lot of ways 2015-10-28T05:39:47Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-28T05:39:56Z Quadrescence: blubjr, there's less tension I'd say 2015-10-28T05:40:14Z Quadrescence: they both have a very similar core language, unlike scheme/cl 2015-10-28T05:40:16Z akkad: sml is newer https://docs.oracle.com/cloud/social/doc.1/involver_dev/sml/Social%20Markup%20Language.html 2015-10-28T05:40:37Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:40:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:40:48Z Quadrescence: beach, the SML standard is a work of art. Sometimes I wish CL had an equivalent: http://sml-family.org/sml97-defn.pdf 2015-10-28T05:41:01Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T05:41:25Z namespace joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:42:00Z loke: White_Flame: If I were to wear my language-lawyer hat, I'd point out that the description in your linked document is incomplete. It never explains what happens if :KEY is given as NIL. 2015-10-28T05:42:19Z White_Flame: I'd agree 2015-10-28T05:42:39Z beach: Quadrescence: That looks like a reasonable-size specification. I'll put it on my nightstand. 2015-10-28T05:47:06Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T05:47:36Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to fixing that particular problem. Though your code will break once we do source tracking by having GENERATE-AST accept concrete syntax trees as well as (or instead of) S-expressions. I guess we will deal with that problem when that day comes. 2015-10-28T05:51:14Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:51:21Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T05:53:01Z Octophore is now known as Octophore` 2015-10-28T05:54:18Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T05:54:59Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T05:57:14Z namespace: Are there any good caveman2 tutorials? 2015-10-28T05:57:44Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:00:35Z euphoriaa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T06:01:51Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:01:53Z quasisane quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T06:02:06Z quasisane joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:03:45Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:03:45Z euphoriaa quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T06:03:45Z euphoriaa joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:07:06Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:07:09Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T06:09:36Z jdtest2 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T06:09:43Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:10:01Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:10:22Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T06:13:54Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:14:10Z jdtest quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T06:15:50Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:19:08Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T06:19:11Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-28T06:19:24Z pillton: beach: The book "Types and Programming" by Pierce uses OCaml. It says "The best textbook on OCaml at the moment is The Functional Approach to Programming by Cousineau and Mauny." It also recommends the tutorial materials at caml.inria.fr and www.ocaml.org. 2015-10-28T06:24:28Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-28T06:24:57Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:26:22Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:27:33Z beach: pillton: Thanks. 2015-10-28T06:27:42Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:29:54Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:33:41Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:34:08Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:36:19Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:37:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:39:05Z Quadrescence: pillton, The OCaml in that book doesn't exercise very OCaml-y features though. 2015-10-28T06:39:12Z Quadrescence: It mostly uses the same core language as SML. :) 2015-10-28T06:39:14Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:39:58Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-10-28T06:40:24Z beach: According to my colleague, who is an expert in OCaml, none of the code produced by the expert OCaml programmers uses the module system in a way that makes the modules truly modular. He is able to do it himself, but he says it is A LOT of work to get it right. 2015-10-28T06:41:21Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:41:46Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:41:54Z pillton: Quadrescence: Ok. Good to know. 2015-10-28T06:43:09Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:44:06Z beach: The same colleague, who is a militant OCaml advocate and heavily into static typing, etc, says that OCaml (and perhaps the entire ML-family) is going down the tubes because of lack of funding and a change of interest of the people initially interested. 2015-10-28T06:44:15Z beach: I haven't checked whether he is right. 2015-10-28T06:45:21Z beach: [to get back on topic] The same colleague, who has written articles and books about programming-language semantics of various OO languages says that CLOS is the only one to get the "right" answer in all cases. 2015-10-28T06:45:54Z pillton: What was the question? 2015-10-28T06:47:10Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:47:11Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T06:47:19Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:47:26Z beach: Oh, the standard stuff where you need multiple dispatch to get the answer right. A method M with two signatures X and Y and Y is a subclass of X, then you call M with a variable of type X but which really contains a Y. 2015-10-28T06:47:30Z beach: That kind of stuff. 2015-10-28T06:47:51Z pillton: Ah ok. 2015-10-28T06:48:14Z beach: It turns out, most Java programmers I have asked, get the answer wrong. They really think Java has multiple dispatch (if they think that far at all). 2015-10-28T06:48:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is multiple dispatch just being able to select the method based on the type of more than one of its arguments? 2015-10-28T06:49:08Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:49:18Z beach: Yes. 2015-10-28T06:49:39Z pillton: beach: What was the "change of interest" above? 2015-10-28T06:49:41Z beach: Clarification: run-time type. 2015-10-28T06:49:42Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: and it means that a method is not a member of any particular class 2015-10-28T06:50:43Z beach: pillton: OCaml was made by government employees who depend on grants, and who can change their focus of interest at any moment. When they lose interest, move on, or retire, there is not always critical mass to keep up their work. 2015-10-28T06:51:29Z pillton: White_Flame: That is a good point. It makes it indistinguishable from a normal function call. (func a b) versus a.func(b). 2015-10-28T06:51:36Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:51:39Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-28T06:51:56Z ineiros joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:52:05Z Robdgreat joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:52:05Z beach: I think that's an orthogonal (or mostly so) issue. 2015-10-28T06:52:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't that just an feature of CL's implementation? 2015-10-28T06:52:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm . . . 2015-10-28T06:52:45Z beach: Didn't drmeister say that the C++ designers are contemplating making the func(a, b) the "standard" syntax, and have it mean a.func(b)? 2015-10-28T06:53:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: nbm 2015-10-28T06:53:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/b/v/ 2015-10-28T06:53:10Z H4ns: beach: i would say that ocaml has more traction than cl at this present time. have a look at mirageos, it looks rather nice. 2015-10-28T06:53:11Z beach: neber mind? 2015-10-28T06:53:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2015-10-28T06:53:41Z beach: H4ns: OK. I don't have an opinion myself. Just saying what my colleague said. 2015-10-28T06:53:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Jane Street uses it commercially. 2015-10-28T06:54:06Z H4ns: as does citrix 2015-10-28T06:54:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html 2015-10-28T06:54:17Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T06:54:51Z beach: Anyway, time to get to work! 2015-10-28T06:54:53Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-28T06:54:59Z pillton: beach: I'm not sure how it can be orthogonal. The syntax implies the that the method func is dispatched according to a. 2015-10-28T06:55:33Z pillton: beach: Otherwise a.func(b) and b.func(a) are interchangeable. 2015-10-28T06:55:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I, at least, was confusing overriding a method based on the types of the arguments with multiple dispatch. 2015-10-28T06:56:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, you could have a language where a.func(b) was just synctactic sugar for func(a,b) 2015-10-28T06:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would lead to counter-intuitive situations when multiple dispatch happened, though. 2015-10-28T06:57:15Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T06:57:26Z pillton: Yes, but then you are still in trouble if you want to add multiple dispatch. 2015-10-28T06:57:50Z jackdaniel: (a,b).func() 2015-10-28T06:57:51Z jackdaniel: hehe 2015-10-28T06:57:53Z jackdaniel: good morning 2015-10-28T06:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that looks interesting 2015-10-28T06:58:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: good morning 2015-10-28T06:58:45Z jackdaniel: do you see how parens happen when you make language more powerful? (just a joke) 2015-10-28T06:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: b.func(a,_) 2015-10-28T06:59:55Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:00:09Z reggy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T07:00:47Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:00:55Z phadthai: func(a b)() 2015-10-28T07:01:07Z phadthai: but just kidding, actually, filling in more iterations :) 2015-10-28T07:01:23Z Quadrescence: f(a)un(b)c() 2015-10-28T07:01:29Z jackdaniel: what implies the most obvious syntax (func a b) , right? ;) 2015-10-28T07:02:11Z phadthai: (func a b ()) ? 2015-10-28T07:02:51Z Quadrescence: how about for dispatched arguments A B, (FUNC A B) returns a closure representing the dispatched code on A, B, which can be called on ordinary arguments ;) 2015-10-28T07:03:00Z phadthai: (b (a (func))) 2015-10-28T07:04:11Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: something like (funcall (func a b) ,@args) ? 2015-10-28T07:04:18Z Quadrescence: yeah 2015-10-28T07:04:31Z jackdaniel: interesting 2015-10-28T07:05:33Z White_Flame: dwim(ykwim) 2015-10-28T07:07:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs etypecase 2015-10-28T07:07:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm 2015-10-28T07:08:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:10:44Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-28T07:13:39Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:15:54Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T07:19:23Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:21:46Z keen_________ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:21:49Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T07:22:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:22:34Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:22:54Z keen________ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:23:43Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:23:57Z akkad quit (Quit: Emacs must have died) 2015-10-28T07:24:18Z jdtest quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T07:25:54Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:26:02Z jdtest2 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:26:03Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T07:27:35Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: There is a new C++ proposal that will, in fact, make a.foo(b) equivalent to foo(a,b) 2015-10-28T07:28:18Z loke: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2014/n4165.pdf 2015-10-28T07:28:44Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:33:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T07:33:50Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:35:57Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:36:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:36:24Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:38:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:38:55Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:42:50Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:44:06Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:46:15Z cross quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-28T07:48:02Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:52:27Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:54:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T07:56:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-28T07:59:49Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T08:00:27Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:00:36Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:00:58Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:02:45Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:03:48Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:08:26Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:09:10Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:09:32Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:10:32Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-28T08:11:35Z pepol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:12:17Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-28T08:13:15Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:13:45Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:15:22Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:16:26Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:17:49Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:19:06Z pepol joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:19:52Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:21:11Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:21:54Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:22:27Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T08:26:13Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:29:48Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:32:01Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:32:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:33:29Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:33:34Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T08:33:34Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:40:06Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:40:35Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-10-28T08:40:42Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:45:01Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T08:55:05Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:01:45Z stilda joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:03:37Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:05:11Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:05:14Z stilda: Hi. In CCL implementation I see "(defmacro defmacro (name arglist ...) ...". Just do not understand what does it mean? What is the first "defmacro"? Is it a special form, a function wich wil be redefined by this form or...? 2015-10-28T09:06:05Z jackdaniel: stilda: probably they have some bootstrap version of defmacro used to define the final defmacro for the user 2015-10-28T09:06:12Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T09:06:38Z Shinmera: Or alternatively the compiler understands defmacro and this one just adds a function binding. 2015-10-28T09:06:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:07:05Z Shinmera: (similarly to how you'll probably find `(defun car (cons) (car cons))`) 2015-10-28T09:07:08Z namespace: eg. One way you might do this is to have a minimal defmacro written in C which is used to redefine itself in Lisp. 2015-10-28T09:08:08Z Harag: quick stupid question how do I get a () "empty list" to stay () and not become NIL in a ` expression? 2015-10-28T09:08:19Z Shinmera: They're equivalent. 2015-10-28T09:08:32Z Shinmera: (eq () NIL) => T 2015-10-28T09:08:52Z Shinmera: It's just two different ways of writing the same thing. 2015-10-28T09:09:36Z Harag: `(defclass xxx () ()) and `(declass xxx nil ()) are not the same 2015-10-28T09:09:49Z Harag: not to eval anyways 2015-10-28T09:10:01Z Shinmera: Because NIL is a symbol 2015-10-28T09:10:24Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T09:10:27Z Shinmera: The macro expects a list, not a symbol. 2015-10-28T09:10:38Z Shinmera: Upon evaluation, the two are one and the same. 2015-10-28T09:12:20Z Harag: `(defclass xxx ,somevar () ()) ... how do I get somevar to work for () then? 2015-10-28T09:12:25Z Shinmera: `(NIL) => (list 'NIL) `(()) => (list NIL) 2015-10-28T09:12:52Z Shinmera: Make it be a list? 2015-10-28T09:13:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T09:13:39Z HDurer__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T09:16:18Z Shinmera: It'd be much easier if you posted the code that gives you trouble. 2015-10-28T09:18:49Z Harag: (setf somevar ()) (eval `(defclass xxx ,somevar (())) 2015-10-28T09:19:33Z Shinmera: Well the problem there is your invalid slot definition. 2015-10-28T09:19:50Z Harag: pfft 2015-10-28T09:19:55Z Harag: yeah i see 2015-10-28T09:20:27Z Harag: (eval `(defclass xxx ,somevar ())) 2015-10-28T09:20:29Z Harag: works 2015-10-28T09:20:34Z Shinmera: Good :) 2015-10-28T09:20:50Z Harag: but not in my actual code ... sigh 2015-10-28T09:21:01Z redeemed joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:21:37Z Harag: must have something else going wrong, thanx any ways 2015-10-28T09:23:01Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:23:45Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2015-10-28T09:26:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:29:30Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:31:18Z loke: Harag: Rule of thumb: If you use EVAL, there is a better way to do it. 2015-10-28T09:32:40Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T09:32:57Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:34:05Z Harag: so your user is specifying "data" on the fly in your program and you need to generate the classes to pesist the objects and the screens code etc on the fly.... so what is the better way than eval ... compile? 2015-10-28T09:34:18Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T09:40:49Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:44:55Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T09:47:37Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:48:40Z loke: Harag: There are multiple layers to that question: 2015-10-28T09:48:51Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T09:49:01Z loke: Harag: The first involves is asking why you'd want to dynamically redefine classes based on user input? 2015-10-28T09:50:22Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:52:30Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:53:00Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:55:22Z hydan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T09:57:37Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:59:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T09:59:46Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T10:00:35Z heddwch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:00:45Z flambard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:00:53Z Harag: :loke there are a lot of reasons but I need to run into a meeting now, will have that chat some time...thanx 2015-10-28T10:02:08Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:02:09Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T10:02:35Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:04:00Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:04:32Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:06:17Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:08:38Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:08:47Z kp666_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T10:10:18Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:10:29Z kp666_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:11:02Z kp666_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:11:11Z kp666_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T10:11:24Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:12:54Z kp666 quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-28T10:13:44Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:16:10Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:16:59Z atgnag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:17:12Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:17:55Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:19:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:19:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:22:44Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:24:15Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:24:22Z atgnag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:25:17Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-28T10:25:35Z MaggieAndEazar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:30:49Z UtkarshRay joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:32:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:33:07Z megido joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:34:26Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:35:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:35:06Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:35:11Z JammyHammy joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:35:31Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:36:16Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T10:39:41Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:40:01Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:43:37Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T10:45:48Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:46:09Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T10:49:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T10:52:23Z easye: Is there a mailing list somewhere for caveman2? 2015-10-28T10:52:35Z easye: Having very basic Hello, World! questions 2015-10-28T10:54:32Z snv1 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:54:32Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T10:55:03Z namespace: easye: Same. 2015-10-28T10:55:27Z namespace: easye: I plan to write a tutorial once I figure it out, so that nobody else has this problem. 2015-10-28T10:56:42Z easye: A very promising piece of code that obviously provides a lot of what one is looking for in a contemporary web framework. 2015-10-28T10:57:15Z easye: But I get the feeling that it is pretty tweaked to what the author wants, so it could benefit from outsiders giving perspective. 2015-10-28T10:57:21Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-28T10:59:17Z easye: I think, unfortunately, I am going to go with stock Hunchentoot for my current project, as I really need to work with HTTP as a REST API rather create a "web application". 2015-10-28T10:59:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:00:22Z easye: namespace: I'm looking forward to what you produce. If you need a friendly critic of your tutorial before you publish, please let me know. 2015-10-28T11:04:41Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:10:05Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:10:29Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:15:38Z yeticry_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T11:17:56Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:20:40Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:28:15Z DruidGreeneyes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:28:34Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:34:57Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:35:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:35:55Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:38:37Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:39:21Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:39:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:40:18Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:43:26Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:48:28Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:48:38Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:49:12Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:49:38Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-28T11:51:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T11:52:40Z Cymew: I was looking into that problem domain myself recently. Unless you really know ruby on rails or some python framwork, it's a bit of an uphill battle. 2015-10-28T11:57:54Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:00:08Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:02:00Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:03:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:04:05Z JammyHammy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T12:04:15Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:05:19Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:05:39Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:07:30Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-28T12:08:52Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:09:07Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:14:44Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:16:06Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:19:10Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-28T12:19:22Z Viaken: That was my impression, as well, looking at it last year. 2015-10-28T12:20:10Z Shinmera feels really bad abut not having the time to fix that problem 2015-10-28T12:24:47Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:26:15Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:33:35Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:33:44Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T12:34:05Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:34:20Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:36:37Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:41:03Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:41:25Z Viaken: Can't solve everything. 2015-10-28T12:42:09Z Shinmera: Yeah but I got most of the solution already and should've been done with it altogether a long time ago if I didn't keep on getting side tracked. 2015-10-28T12:42:33Z Shinmera: There's simply too many interesting things to do and too little time to do them in. Woe is me! 2015-10-28T12:49:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:49:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:49:47Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:51:32Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:54:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2015-10-28T12:56:18Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T12:56:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-28T13:00:35Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I don't like using sb-int:simple-file-error as the condition. (handler-case (with-open-file (s "noexist") t) (sb-int:simple-file-error nil)) 2015-10-28T16:28:52Z Xach: shifty: :if-does-not-exist nil 2015-10-28T16:29:10Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:29:11Z Xach: (open "noexist" :if-does-not-exist nil) => nil 2015-10-28T16:29:16Z Xach: same for with-open-file 2015-10-28T16:29:17Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:29:31Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:32:21Z shifty: sorry, should have been more clear - I'm practising using conditions. with-open-file is part of Common Lisp (right?) - so why is it throwing an implementation-specific condition? 2015-10-28T16:32:46Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:32:56Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-10-28T16:33:00Z |3b|: clhs open 2015-10-28T16:33:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 2015-10-28T16:34:08Z |3b|: specified to signal an error of type FILE-ERROR, and SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR is a FILE-ERROR 2015-10-28T16:35:13Z |3b|: i guess "sub type" is the correct term for conditions that inherit from other conditions? 2015-10-28T16:35:18Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:35:44Z shifty: |3b|: neat - hyperspec mentions file-error. 2015-10-28T16:35:45Z resttime_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:35:46Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:35:59Z |3b|: and the spec allows throwing more specific errors than what it specifies 2015-10-28T16:37:03Z shifty: |3b|: so one must assume that sb-int:simple-file-error is a more specific form of file-error? 2015-10-28T16:37:28Z |3b|: don't need to assume, you can check the implementation 2015-10-28T16:37:50Z |3b|: though if it isn't, it would be a bug in sbcl 2015-10-28T16:38:18Z shifty: kind of annoying that the /reported/ condition is one thing, but the most appropriate condition is called something else 2015-10-28T16:38:25Z |3b|: so if you use FILE-ERROR in your original code it should work 2015-10-28T16:39:13Z shifty: anyway, I don't understand enough about the condition system to have any right to complain yet :-) 2015-10-28T16:39:19Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:39:35Z shifty: thanks, too. 2015-10-28T16:39:52Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:41:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:41:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T16:41:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:42:16Z Xach: the most appropriate can change depending on context 2015-10-28T16:42:45Z |3b|: actually, i guess "more specific" isn't the right description 2015-10-28T16:42:56Z |3b|: it is allow to use subtypes of the specified error 2015-10-28T16:43:11Z Xach: pjb: any fix for com.informatimago? 2015-10-28T16:43:26Z |3b|: so handling the specified error is required to work for the implementation to be conformant 2015-10-28T16:43:31Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:47:03Z resttime_ is now known as resttime 2015-10-28T16:47:14Z |3b| isn't sure if that simple-file-error provides any benefit to users or if it is just an implementation detail 2015-10-28T16:48:23Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:49:44Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:50:10Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:51:58Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T16:52:19Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-28T16:52:37Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-10-28T16:54:04Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-10-28T16:57:13Z snv1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T16:59:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:06:35Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:07:58Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:08:21Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:08:27Z samssammerz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:08:49Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:09:37Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:09:59Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2015-10-28T17:10:43Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:11:52Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T17:13:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T17:14:02Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:15:36Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:15:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: shifty: (describe 'SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR) is your friend :) 2015-10-28T17:18:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: it will tell you: "Direct superclasses: SIMPLE-CONDITION, FILE-ERROR" 2015-10-28T17:19:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (just for future reference) 2015-10-28T17:19:21Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:19:27Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:19:29Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T17:21:06Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:21:07Z xristos is now known as Guest69366 2015-10-28T17:21:20Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:23:42Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: you beat me too it 2015-10-28T17:23:56Z lisse quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-28T17:25:13Z failproofshark quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:26:32Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:27:29Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T17:30:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:31:44Z failproofshark quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T17:32:13Z failproofshark joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:33:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:33:44Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:34:04Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:34:10Z lb426 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:35:05Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:35:05Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:35:15Z leafybas_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T17:35:26Z warweasle: I just hacked swank to allow a custom eval function! 2015-10-28T17:35:38Z lb426 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T17:35:41Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:35:47Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T17:36:04Z NeverDie_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T17:36:20Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T17:36:39Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Please help me with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157695 2015-10-28T18:31:04Z kons joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:31:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wojciech_K: symbols should be a gensym, I think 2015-10-28T18:31:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: shouldn't, that is 2015-10-28T18:32:16Z Wojciech_K: That would be a leaky macro, right? 2015-10-28T18:32:26Z Wojciech_K: leaking* 2015-10-28T18:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Aren't they supposed to leak into the body? 2015-10-28T18:32:50Z Xach: the bindings in the returned let should be in the macroexpander, not the returned code 2015-10-28T18:32:54Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:33:44Z Wojciech_K: fiddlerwoaroof, I'll try that. 2015-10-28T18:33:55Z Wojciech_K: Xach, I don't understand 2015-10-28T18:34:42Z kdas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T18:35:42Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T18:36:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wojciech_K: I didn't look at the macro carefully enough, so I'm not exactly sure what the "symbols" variable is supposed to be? 2015-10-28T18:37:00Z Wojciech_K: when init binding are ((a 2) (b 3) (c 4)) 2015-10-28T18:37:08Z Wojciech_K: symbols are (a b c) 2015-10-28T18:37:13Z Wojciech_K: I tested this and it worked 2015-10-28T18:37:36Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:38:08Z Wojciech_K: When you just return ,symbols instead of (labels...) 2015-10-28T18:38:14Z Xach: Wojciech_K: you are returning the wrong code. you don't want code that extracts the bindings in the retunred code. that should be in the macro code, and the results spliced into the returned value. 2015-10-28T18:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the first thing when writing a macro is to write it without gensyms and then inspect the macroexpansion to determine where the gensyms need to be. 2015-10-28T18:38:42Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T18:38:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least when you first start out) 2015-10-28T18:38:57Z hitecnologys_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-28T18:38:58Z Xach: Wojciech_K: they have to be lifted out. 2015-10-28T18:39:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, you should write out the desired expansion first and compare the generated code to it. 2015-10-28T18:39:41Z Xach: so it is something like (defmacro clj-loop (bindings) `(labels ((recur ,(mapcar 'first bindings)) ...)) (recur ,@(mapcar 'second bindings))))))) 2015-10-28T18:40:06Z Xach: (that is omitting a let to bind the values to use in , and ,@) 2015-10-28T18:40:17Z Wojciech_K: Thank you! 2015-10-28T18:40:40Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:41:04Z Wojciech_K: Are you Xach mentioned at "Practical Common Lisp" webpage?)) 2015-10-28T18:41:13Z fikusz joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:41:20Z Xach: that's me 2015-10-28T18:41:30Z Wojciech_K: :D 2015-10-28T18:42:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any SQL generators for common lisp that generate t-sql? 2015-10-28T18:42:33Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T18:43:00Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: sybase's thing? 2015-10-28T18:43:04Z Xach: and sql server? 2015-10-28T18:43:45Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: I've used s-sql for it, but mostly for generic stuff, not platform-specific stuff. And it required some tweaks to avoid postgres-specific syntax features. 2015-10-28T18:44:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2015-10-28T18:44:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks 2015-10-28T18:44:50Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:45:03Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:46:42Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:47:06Z cmack` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:50:14Z alejandrozf joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:50:51Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T18:51:39Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:52:29Z alejandrozf: #lispcafe 2015-10-28T18:52:33Z alejandrozf quit 2015-10-28T18:53:38Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-28T18:56:55Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T18:57:36Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Its hard to duplicate (because I cant tell what program is causing what thing to get deadlocked, and it 2015-10-28T20:01:50Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:06:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:06:43Z mordocai: bobbysmith007: Looks like you cut off there btw 2015-10-28T20:06:51Z mordocai: bobbysmith007: On deadlocked, and it 2015-10-28T20:13:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T20:15:54Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:16:04Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T20:16:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:17:00Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:17:48Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T20:19:31Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:20:32Z bobbysmith007: oops nothing import past that "deadlocked, and it only happens after a while)" 2015-10-28T20:20:58Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T20:21:10Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:27:20Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:27:49Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T20:28:21Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-28T20:28:32Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:29:51Z warweasle left #lisp 2015-10-28T20:31:10Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:31:55Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:34:01Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:34:12Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T20:34:53Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:35:03Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:39:26Z ozihcs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:40:06Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-28T20:40:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:40:38Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:44:50Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:44:59Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:45:02Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-28T20:45:07Z ben_vulpes is now known as vulpes_a_hopital 2015-10-28T20:50:26Z Guest20641 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:50:29Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:52:22Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:52:43Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:54:03Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T20:54:35Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T20:57:53Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T20:59:42Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:00:09Z phoe_krk: is there any way to lock one piece of Lisp code from accessing another piece of Lisp code within the same Lisp image? or is Lisp designed to be completely open inside and there are other methods of applying security? 2015-10-28T21:01:08Z White_Flame: hiding in a closure is typically unbreakable via portable means 2015-10-28T21:01:09Z jsgrant_ quit (Quit: Peace Peeps. o/) 2015-10-28T21:01:30Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: hiding the variable in a closure. thanks! 2015-10-28T21:01:53Z White_Flame: you can also hide functions via flet/labels scopes 2015-10-28T21:02:01Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-28T21:02:23Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-28T21:02:32Z White_Flame: but it's generally useful to just keep things open, especially for recompilation and debugging 2015-10-28T21:03:14Z kini quit (*.net *.split) 2015-10-28T21:04:17Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:05:11Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:05:41Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Alternatively your implementation could provide a way to scan the heap (map each live object in the heap) and this also would let you get a reference to the hidden object. 2015-10-28T21:36:14Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:36:21Z pjb: phoe_krk: also, your CL implementation might have the bad taste of running on a unix system, where it's trivial to get access to the memory space of another process (either for honest debugging purposes, or via exploits, after all, unix is written in C). 2015-10-28T21:36:32Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:36:33Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T21:37:02Z phoe_krk: bad taste? 2015-10-28T21:37:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T21:37:36Z pjb: phoe_krk: and even if you don't run it in a virtual machine (where you could get easily access to the memory), but on a physical machine, the memory can still be scanned with physical tools: check http://visual6502.org/ 2015-10-28T21:37:40Z White_Flame: pjb: isn't the same thing true for Windows at the very least? 2015-10-28T21:37:44Z pjb: phoe_krk: yes, the horrible taste. 2015-10-28T21:37:49Z pjb: White_Flame: yes. 2015-10-28T21:38:33Z pjb: Only one safe way: a lisp machine without locative running on hardware you built yourself (and then, only God will be able to access it). 2015-10-28T21:38:36Z White_Flame: but basically, whoever owns the hardware has access to the data on it, regardless of architecture 2015-10-28T21:38:38Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T21:39:06Z White_Flame: (including virtualized definitions of "hardware") 2015-10-28T21:39:26Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T21:39:43Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: good point, you're right. 2015-10-28T21:40:09Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T21:40:15Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:40:42Z White_Flame: In thinking about multi-user Lisp image/machine security (ie, users within the lisp image, not side-band attackers), restricting access to symbols at the package level could likely provide good security boundaries 2015-10-28T21:40:47Z jsgrant_ quit (Quit: Peace Peeps. o/) 2015-10-28T21:41:07Z pjb: What's the difference between a user and a side-band attacker? 2015-10-28T21:41:10Z White_Flame: basically, the points at where symbols & packages are created/introspected could check the ACL of the current context 2015-10-28T21:41:50Z White_Flame: pjb: access through designed interfaces of the Lisp machine itself, vs access outside those interfaces 2015-10-28T21:42:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T21:42:10Z pjb: Ok, so you remove the last two points, remains all the others before. 2015-10-28T21:42:44Z White_Flame: right, hardware and environment security are different problems than application security 2015-10-28T21:44:13Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: the interesting thing is, I think symbol/package security enforcement can likely be done while staying observably compliant to the spec 2015-10-28T21:45:11Z White_Flame: just because there are more packages than you can view (and it can spoof local ones for you if you try to use the same name), likely doesn't affect the standard behavior 2015-10-28T21:46:38Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T21:46:59Z White_Flame: It's a bit of a shame that the Lisp machines died out before security became a concern. Symbolics had some really good ideas, and it'd be interesting to see how they'd tackle this and integrate into their system 2015-10-28T21:47:02Z phoe_krk: hm 2015-10-28T21:47:07Z phoe_krk: what if... 2015-10-28T21:48:13Z phoe_krk: or maybe not. 2015-10-28T21:49:41Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T21:50:17Z Bicyclidine: hardware security is hard, yo http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf 2015-10-28T21:51:41Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:52:46Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:53:28Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T21:53:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T21:54:08Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T21:54:45Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-28T21:56:47Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T21:59:21Z troydm: in sbcl debugger prompt what does 0] stand for? 2015-10-28T21:59:42Z troydm: because I'm always getting that confused with the default choice of action to take 2015-10-28T21:59:54Z nyef: troydm: Either frame number, or debugger nesting level. 2015-10-28T21:59:59Z nyef: I forget which offhand. 2015-10-28T22:01:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:01:30Z troydm: nyef: ic, thx 2015-10-28T22:01:37Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T22:01:55Z troydm: nyef: wait, what is a frame? 2015-10-28T22:02:05Z troydm: nyef: a stack frame? or is it a thread number? 2015-10-28T22:02:09Z nyef: troydm: Stack frame. 2015-10-28T22:02:34Z nyef: If you enter the command DOWN in the debugger, it'll change to the calling stack frame. 2015-10-28T22:02:40Z namespace: troydm: It's debugger nesting level, I think. 2015-10-28T22:02:54Z nyef: namespace: Stack frame. 2015-10-28T22:03:15Z nyef: It's nesting level when it's "0[2]". 2015-10-28T22:03:24Z namespace: Ah, right. 2015-10-28T22:03:35Z nyef: (the 0 being the stack frame, the [2] indicating that it's the second debugger.) 2015-10-28T22:03:51Z troydm: how do I connect to remote swank using slimv? 2015-10-28T22:03:57Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:04:04Z troydm: there doesn't seems to be any command for doing that 2015-10-28T22:04:13Z troydm: any slimv users? 2015-10-28T22:05:52Z axion: how do i save a core with the environment in sbcl? i noticed when loading a custom core image, it cannot find sbcl contribs without setting SBCL_HOME 2015-10-28T22:05:53Z easye-ipad joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:06:49Z easye-ipad quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T22:06:56Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-28T22:07:51Z axion: troydm: line 352 of the docs 2015-10-28T22:08:42Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:09:07Z phoe_krk: (define-modify-macro appendf (&rest args) append) is fairly nice and short. how do I define an equivalent macro for remove? 2015-10-28T22:09:08Z troydm: axion: ahh ic 2015-10-28T22:09:16Z troydm: axion: thx 2015-10-28T22:10:01Z troydm: axion: still no convenient prompt style Connect command like in vim-fireplace, pitty, I should write and contrib that kind of functionality definitely 2015-10-28T22:10:04Z axion: phoe_krk: you could just load alexandria 2015-10-28T22:10:15Z phoe_krk: axion: oh, let me see 2015-10-28T22:11:38Z axion: troydm: i'm afraid i cant be of much help as i don't have access to slimv anymore. i've used it for more than 5 years, but time to get with the times :) 2015-10-28T22:11:57Z troydm: axion: what do u use now? 2015-10-28T22:12:05Z troydm: axion: emacs + slime? 2015-10-28T22:12:08Z axion: yes 2015-10-28T22:12:13Z troydm: traitor 2015-10-28T22:12:26Z troydm: okey, just kiddin 2015-10-28T22:12:28Z troydm: :) 2015-10-28T22:12:55Z troydm: I hope u still use evil mode right? it's the essence of vim afterall 2015-10-28T22:13:22Z axion: i do not like evil-mode 2015-10-28T22:13:34Z axion: plus it breaks some other modes 2015-10-28T22:14:58Z troydm: ic, so how were you able to switch your vim mindset off? 2015-10-28T22:16:42Z axion: i have not. i still prefer vim for what it is good at - a quick drop-in editor of text. emacs is more like an OS/IDE to mold into whatever you want to develop. 2015-10-28T22:16:43Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T22:17:11Z phoe_krk: is there a way to use alexandria's symbols without writing alexandria: in front of them? 2015-10-28T22:17:13Z troydm: axion: ic 2015-10-28T22:17:28Z blubjr: use-package 2015-10-28T22:17:30Z axion: phoe_krk: use-package 2015-10-28T22:17:40Z phoe_krk: thanks, googling now 2015-10-28T22:18:46Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:19:01Z Xach: phoe_krk: or :use in defpackage 2015-10-28T22:19:19Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:20:03Z axion: so any ideas on how to save a core that knows where sbcl contribs are? 2015-10-28T22:22:26Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:25:06Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:25:20Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-28T22:25:26Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-28T22:26:04Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:27:19Z pjb: axion: think about it. 2015-10-28T22:27:52Z pjb: axion: can the sbcl image be launched without SBCL_HOME set correctly? 2015-10-28T22:27:55Z cmack` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:28:53Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:28:53Z axion: yes 2015-10-28T22:29:19Z pjb: then save it in a variable and when the image is launched reset it from the variable. 2015-10-28T22:29:49Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:30:43Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:32:38Z lisp402 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:33:53Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:34:31Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:35:09Z lisp402: Would anyone here know how to have a lisp function interpret the multiplication star -> * as a symbol and not as the arithmetic operation. Im a beginner and working on a school project. i just need to simplify a list or arethimatic operations and not actually perform the math. Thank you very much! 2015-10-28T22:35:17Z Zamuel quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-28T22:35:28Z Bicyclidine: quote it. '* 2015-10-28T22:35:53Z White_Flame: and quoting a list automatically quotes everything within it as plain symbols '(+ - * /) 2015-10-28T22:35:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:36:08Z White_Flame: (technically, it leaves the entire list unevaluated) 2015-10-28T22:36:38Z lisp402: see i have done that but the problem is in our function cond we have (eq '* car lis ) is that not right? 2015-10-28T22:36:43Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T22:36:53Z White_Flame: in order to call the function CAR, you need to open a paren 2015-10-28T22:37:30Z White_Flame: right now, it's saying "call the function EQ given the parameters * (symbol), the value of variable CAR, and the value of variable LIS" 2015-10-28T22:37:52Z White_Flame: whereas (eq '* (car lis)) compares the symbol * with the result of calling the function CAR 2015-10-28T22:37:54Z pjb: lisp402: ( = "apply the operator" 2015-10-28T22:38:26Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:38:46Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T22:41:31Z lisp402: here is a snipit of my code 2015-10-28T22:42:02Z lisp402: (defun simplify (lis) (cond ((eq '* (car lis)) remove '1 '(lis) ) ((eq '+ (car lis)) (remove '0 '(lis)) ) ( t (simplify(cdr lis))) ) 2015-10-28T22:42:20Z lisp402: i know thats weird but thats what i have 2015-10-28T22:43:43Z Bicyclidine: Why do you have remove 1 '(lis) without parentheses around it but parenthese around (remove '0 '(lis))? i mean, they're both wrong, but they're also not even consistent. 2015-10-28T22:44:21Z Bicyclidine: and i have no idea what you're calling remove for. 2015-10-28T22:44:43Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-28T22:44:44Z White_Flame: you want to remove elements from lis, not from '(lis), ie the list of 1 element, containing the symbol LIS ;) 2015-10-28T22:44:57Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:45:07Z White_Flame: if lis contains (+ 1 2), you're trying to remove from '(lis) 2015-10-28T22:45:12Z White_Flame: which isn't (+ 1 2) :) 2015-10-28T22:45:29Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:45:43Z White_Flame: you should default to not using quotes, only adding them when you realize you need a literal value 2015-10-28T22:46:17Z White_Flame: Bicyclidine: he's removing no-op values. 1 in a multiplicative list is a no-op, 0 in an additive list is a no-op 2015-10-28T22:46:52Z Bicyclidine: ah. though i'm not sure how that works with simplifying the cdr. 2015-10-28T22:47:43Z White_Flame: right, that part is weird, since it loses the operator in use: (cdr '(+ 1 2 3)) -> (1 2 3) 2015-10-28T22:48:45Z White_Flame: I suspect what is intended is to mapcar #'simplify the rest of the terms 2015-10-28T22:48:52Z White_Flame: for nested expressions 2015-10-28T22:49:13Z White_Flame: but it will also infinitely loop, as there's no terminator 2015-10-28T22:49:15Z Bicyclidine: which would still fail, given it'll try (car 4) 2015-10-28T22:49:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:49:54Z White_Flame: lisp402: following along at all? 2015-10-28T22:50:44Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:53:42Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:53:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:54:24Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:55:35Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-28T22:56:05Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2015-10-28T22:56:05Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-10-28T22:57:44Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-28T22:58:49Z impulse- joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:01:04Z dandersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T23:01:07Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:02:03Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:02:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:02:27Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:02:39Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:02:47Z phoe_krk: what is the simplest way to exit a loop on keypress? 2015-10-28T23:05:39Z jdtest quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:05:45Z jdtest joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:08:06Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T23:08:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:09:16Z jasom: phoe_krk: need more information 2015-10-28T23:09:17Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-28T23:09:32Z Sakuya` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T23:10:01Z phoe_krk: jasom: I'm trying to write a function that runs in a loop of sorts until I press a key (could be enter) in the REPL 2015-10-28T23:10:24Z pillton: listen might work. 2015-10-28T23:11:18Z jasom: phoe_krk: yeah, checking the return value of (listen) as often as possible would be the best way 2015-10-28T23:11:39Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-28T23:11:40Z phoe_krk: (do () (listen) (myfunc)) 2015-10-28T23:11:43Z phoe_krk: something like that? 2015-10-28T23:12:08Z jasom: phoe_krk: something like (loop (when (listen) (return)) (myfunc)) 2015-10-28T23:12:11Z phoe_krk: ((listen)) 2015-10-28T23:12:28Z pillton: Hmm.. The terminal needs to be set correctly by the look of it. 2015-10-28T23:12:37Z pillton: You have to push enter. 2015-10-28T23:12:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:12:51Z jasom: pillton: stdin on *nix is line-buffered by default 2015-10-28T23:13:15Z jasom: phoe_krk: ah ((listen)) should work, yes 2015-10-28T23:13:25Z pillton: Bah. People and their line buffering. 2015-10-28T23:13:29Z phoe_krk: I'm running into trouble 2015-10-28T23:13:35Z pillton: Run away then! 2015-10-28T23:13:38Z phoe_krk: OMG 2015-10-28T23:13:39Z phoe_krk: I mean 2015-10-28T23:13:46Z phoe_krk: running this in emacs doesn't seem to work. 2015-10-28T23:14:35Z jasom: phoe_krk: it indeed doesn't appear to work with the slime REPL 2015-10-28T23:14:47Z jasom: which is not surprising 2015-10-28T23:14:51Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-10-28T23:16:01Z pjb: phoe_krk: emacs is like a browser with javascript. 2015-10-28T23:16:11Z phoe_krk: pjb: I know. 2015-10-28T23:16:23Z pjb: phoe_krk: how would you detect a key press in the browser from your server web app? 2015-10-28T23:17:13Z megido quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:17:58Z phoe_krk: pjb: I see. 2015-10-28T23:21:50Z znpy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-28T23:22:22Z reb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-28T23:23:16Z reb joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:23:19Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-28T23:26:44Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:27:22Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:29:19Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:29:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: you would set up an event handler on the browser that sends all keystrokes to the server for logging and analysis :) 2015-10-28T23:30:09Z pjb: And you would need an event loop in the server program. 2015-10-28T23:30:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Supposedly, facebook logs the items you choose not to post as well as the one's you choose to post (at least, if you use their mobile app) 2015-10-28T23:31:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: ,,http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/12/facebook_self_censorship_what_happens_to_the_posts_you_don_t_publish.html 2015-10-28T23:31:32Z pjb: that was for #lispcafe. Don't confuse the channels. 2015-10-28T23:31:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:31:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: oops 2015-10-28T23:31:59Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:32:16Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:33:20Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:33:43Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:35:11Z White_Flame: phoe_krk: throw/catch is a nice simple way of doing non-local returns, if you've nested functions 2015-10-28T23:36:40Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-28T23:36:46Z trinitr0n: So anyone interested in discussing specifically Symbolics 2015-10-28T23:36:46Z trinitr0n: bits, stories, etc. should join #smbx on Freenode which 2015-10-28T23:36:46Z trinitr0n: should get interesting as this project unfolds 2015-10-28T23:36:57Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:37:40Z White_Flame: can't join, must be invited it says 2015-10-28T23:37:53Z trinitr0n: oops 2015-10-28T23:37:55Z trinitr0n: let me fix that 2015-10-28T23:39:17Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:40:20Z reb: trinitr0n: What's the project that's unfolding? 2015-10-28T23:40:42Z trinitr0n: Basically 2015-10-28T23:40:48Z trinitr0n: I bought a fuckton of symbolics stuff 2015-10-28T23:40:56Z trinitr0n: over the last year 2015-10-28T23:41:06Z trinitr0n: tapes, machines with disks and software, etc 2015-10-28T23:41:11Z trinitr0n: and it's ALLLLLLL gettin' imaged 2015-10-28T23:41:17Z trinitr0n: and it's ALLLLL goin' online 2015-10-28T23:41:27Z trinitr0n: (36xx series) 2015-10-28T23:41:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:42:53Z reb: trinitr0n: nice! Where are you physically located? 2015-10-28T23:42:58Z trinitr0n: Seattle 2015-10-28T23:43:14Z trinitr0n: and I have a space via People's Computer Museum which is an organization i founded 2015-10-28T23:43:22Z trinitr0n: if anyone wants to get hands on with this stuff 2015-10-28T23:43:30Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-28T23:43:31Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:43:41Z reb: I have a couple of Symbolics machines, documentation, tapes, etc. 2015-10-28T23:43:48Z trinitr0n: (or other, less related stuff like a Xerox 1186, PDP 11/40, AT&T / Bell labs blit, etc) 2015-10-28T23:44:09Z trinitr0n: We've even developed disk emulation solutions to circumvent the IPL issues 2015-10-28T23:44:25Z trinitr0n: with the help of David G's excellent MFM tool 2015-10-28T23:44:31Z trinitr0n: reb: where are you located? 2015-10-28T23:44:37Z reb: NYC 2015-10-28T23:44:51Z trinitr0n: well, we'd love to image them 2015-10-28T23:45:00Z trinitr0n: and can help restore them 2015-10-28T23:45:08Z reb: I need to find someone who can repair my monitors ... 2015-10-28T23:45:17Z trinitr0n: I can 2015-10-28T23:45:22Z trinitr0n: but that is a pain in the ass 2015-10-28T23:45:30Z trinitr0n: and requires a lot of shipping 2015-10-28T23:46:00Z reb: Yes, I can probably find someone closer. One's not bad, just a bit blurry ... need some focus. 2015-10-28T23:46:17Z reb: Anyway, have to run ... will join #smbx. 2015-10-28T23:46:30Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-28T23:46:54Z trinitr0n: channel is messed up but let's talk 2015-10-28T23:46:55Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T23:47:31Z pyon quit (Quit: Angels fall, all your you, heretic! Demon heart, bleed for us! (My soul is yours, Dark Master. I will fight for you.)) 2015-10-28T23:50:46Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-28T23:52:22Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:52:49Z pjb: still no joy: *** You have been kicked off channel #smbx by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.): Invite only channel 2015-10-28T23:53:30Z White_Flame: #saturday morning breakfast xereal 2015-10-28T23:55:23Z Bicyclidine: i think there was a rom hack or something called Super Mario Bros X that used the same initialism 2015-10-28T23:57:15Z TMM: Based off of a recommendation I've decided to try to learn myself some lisp :) I was just checking out the wiki page and it talks about different common lisp implementations. I had already installed clisp from packages but the site suggests a different one. 2015-10-28T23:57:16Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-28T23:57:28Z TMM: Are the different common lisp implementations compatible with each other? 2015-10-28T23:58:24Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-28T23:59:40Z White_Flame: as far as following the standard, yes 2015-10-29T00:00:24Z White_Flame: and there are plenty of libraries, usually called trivial-*, that unify the various additional implementation-specific features like threading, networking, etc into single ad-hoc APIs as well 2015-10-29T00:01:00Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:01:04Z White_Flame: CLISP has historically been very portable, and pretty slow, since it used to be interpreted. I believe it's JIT now 2015-10-29T00:01:37Z White_Flame: SBCL is one of the more popular implementations, especially now that it has decent Windows support. It's got a hefty compiler that generates very fast code 2015-10-29T00:01:43Z TMM: OK, but for learning lisp it doesn't really matter much then I guess? 2015-10-29T00:01:48Z Bicyclidine: not much, no. 2015-10-29T00:01:55Z White_Flame: correct, you're just going to be dealing with tutorial stuff, and that's all very compatible 2015-10-29T00:02:04Z Bicyclidine: i'd just pick whatever's easiest to install (eg if you're on linux, whatever's in repos) 2015-10-29T00:02:10Z nyef: CCL is given to be better suited if you're on OSX, though. 2015-10-29T00:02:19Z TMM: I'm on linux, clisp is in repos :) 2015-10-29T00:02:25Z Bicyclidine: unless it's GCL (which is distinct from CLISP). don't use GCL 2015-10-29T00:02:37Z nyef: Bicyclidine: Golden Common Lisp? 2015-10-29T00:02:49Z White_Flame: Gak Common Lisp (c) Nickelodeon 2015-10-29T00:02:49Z TMM: should I be looking into scheme as well? is that a distinct language from lisp? 2015-10-29T00:02:56Z Bicyclidine: it is a distinct language, but it's pretty cool. 2015-10-29T00:03:00Z White_Flame: TMM: Scheme is a distinct language 2015-10-29T00:03:09Z Bicyclidine: if you learn scheme, SICP's a good book. scheme has its own discussion channel, #scheme. 2015-10-29T00:03:15Z nyef: White_Flame: Heh. You can't do that on IRC. d-: 2015-10-29T00:03:16Z White_Flame: it's still s-expressions, (funcname param1 parm2 ...), but it varies fundamentally from Common Lisp 2015-10-29T00:03:27Z TMM: well, 'lisp' was suggested to me 2015-10-29T00:03:38Z White_Flame: 'lisp' typically implies Common Lisp 2015-10-29T00:03:41Z TMM: ok 2015-10-29T00:03:51Z TMM: I have 0 clue, thanks for helping :) 2015-10-29T00:03:52Z White_Flame: Common Lisp was a standardization of many forks of Lisp-like languages 2015-10-29T00:04:13Z White_Flame: others continued to diverge from that process, like Scheme, Dylan iirc, etc 2015-10-29T00:04:26Z TMM: and, I'm afraid to ask now, emacs lisp? Is that similar to common lisp? or is that also distinct? 2015-10-29T00:04:32Z White_Flame: it's also distinct 2015-10-29T00:04:44Z TMM: OK 2015-10-29T00:04:59Z Bicyclidine: don't be afraid to ask, we won't bite you 2015-10-29T00:05:01Z White_Flame: when RMS wrote emacs, he didn't want to implement all of common lisp, so he invented an easier to implement, smaller language 2015-10-29T00:05:49Z TMM: That makes sense :) 2015-10-29T00:05:50Z pjb: White_Flame: clisp is compiled and always have been. 2015-10-29T00:06:00Z White_Flame: pjb: yes, compiled to bytecode, which was then interpreted 2015-10-29T00:06:11Z numbertheory_isP quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T00:06:14Z pjb: byte code is not interpreted, it's executed. 2015-10-29T00:06:25Z pjb: You don't say that java is interpreted! 2015-10-29T00:06:29Z numbertheory_isP joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:06:30Z White_Flame: if it's executed by a software interpreter, it's "interpreted" :-P 2015-10-29T00:06:44Z Bicyclidine: plenty of people say java is interpreted 2015-10-29T00:06:47Z White_Flame: but as I mentioned, CLISP compiles down to native code now, rght? 2015-10-29T00:06:49Z TMM: ok, I'll just use clisp for now then. I imagine that the resources on the cliki.net wiki are the recommended ones? 2015-10-29T00:06:50Z pjb: Who knows how the executor is implemented. It could be a JITC executor! 2015-10-29T00:07:01Z Bicyclidine: TMM: yup 2015-10-29T00:07:15Z Bicyclidine: well, sometimes they're a bit out of date, but the books are good 2015-10-29T00:07:27Z Bicyclidine: ignore anything about asdf-install if it's still there, get quicklisp instead 2015-10-29T00:07:34Z White_Flame: minion: tell TMM about PCL 2015-10-29T00:07:35Z minion: TMM: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-10-29T00:07:59Z pjb: In any case, it's fast enough. 2015-10-29T00:08:02Z TMM: ok, sweet 2015-10-29T00:08:16Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:08:29Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:08:39Z pjb: TMM: To get help choosing a CL implementation, connect to telnet://hubble.informatimago.com:8101 ; have a look at http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2015-10-29T00:11:26Z TMM: pjb, hahaha it has 'slow startup' as a feature to select 2015-10-29T00:12:05Z TMM: it suggests clisp, ecls, mkcl and xcl for me 2015-10-29T00:12:52Z Bicyclidine: and clisp is in your repos, so there you go 2015-10-29T00:13:45Z TMM: oh, clisp is also a GNU project 2015-10-29T00:14:37Z White_Flame: but it's not "GNU Common Lisp", so it's okay 2015-10-29T00:14:56Z TMM: I like gnu software :) 2015-10-29T00:16:20Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:16:39Z TMM: ok, sweet, I'll start working through that book. Thanks for the help so far. 2015-10-29T00:17:13Z TMM: I haven't really learned anything particularly new in programming in a while. I hope this will be as enlightening as I hope! :D 2015-10-29T00:17:47Z TMM: well, completely new way of doing things, I've learned new things in 'programming' like, every time I write code. Sorry that sounded really dumb 2015-10-29T00:18:28Z White_Flame: dynamic languages like Python have really pulled in a lot of Lisp features. However, CL's OO system, macros, and a few other fundamental features remain in its own league 2015-10-29T00:18:33Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T00:18:59Z White_Flame: btw, what's your programming languages background? 2015-10-29T00:19:10Z TMM: I mostly do C++ now 2015-10-29T00:19:26Z TMM: but at work there's Ruby, Python, Java basically everything that they throw over the fence 2015-10-29T00:19:34Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:19:48Z TMM: for my own amusement I mostly write C++ 2015-10-29T00:20:24Z White_Flame: then even lambdas might seem to be a godsend in comparison. ;) and once you deal with lisp macros, you'll learn to hate C++ templates even more than you do now :) 2015-10-29T00:21:07Z TMM: C++ has lambdas now :) 2015-10-29T00:21:45Z TMM: templates, yeah, it's hard to do it much worse. 2015-10-29T00:21:51Z TMM: well, as always Java found a way 2015-10-29T00:21:56Z TMM: but well, you know 2015-10-29T00:22:01Z White_Flame: yeah, I read something on it; not up on the latest revisions of the language. It's getting really weirdly hairy, but still somehow manages to keep its features interoperable 2015-10-29T00:22:38Z TMM: I've used lamdbas in some C++ projects, they work pretty well with the existing functor features actually 2015-10-29T00:22:43Z TMM: you just also get some scoping now 2015-10-29T00:22:45Z White_Flame: but I have no real interest in C++. I do generate C++ code when needed, though. It's a reasonable target for codegen 2015-10-29T00:23:20Z TMM: making a vector of lamdas etc, it all just works. 2015-10-29T00:24:13Z TMM: I also heard bad things about C#'s generics features but I have no idea if it's as bad as java's 2015-10-29T00:24:38Z White_Flame: C# basically refines Java's first attempt at features 2015-10-29T00:25:01Z TMM: well, c# is basically the only language I never see at work. 2015-10-29T00:25:13Z White_Flame: but generics are fairly mature afaik. I tend to just stick with language basics when I work in ohter languages 2015-10-29T00:25:22Z TMM: none of the production stuff runs on windows, there's some officy stuff in it but thankfully that's a completely different team 2015-10-29T00:25:27Z numbertheory_isP quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T00:25:43Z TMM: I'm just blessed with debugging all the OTHER crap :P 2015-10-29T00:28:21Z vulpes_a_hopital: when using handle-case, how do i specify a particular restart to call? 2015-10-29T00:29:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: vulpes_a_hopital: INVOKE_RESTART 2015-10-29T00:29:28Z vulpes_a_hopital: ty! 2015-10-29T00:29:40Z White_Flame: s/_/-/ 2015-10-29T00:29:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: find-restart will tell you if a restart exists 2015-10-29T00:29:52Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:29:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: oops... 2015-10-29T00:29:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Too much shift keey 2015-10-29T00:30:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs invoke-restart 2015-10-29T00:30:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm 2015-10-29T00:30:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs find-restart 2015-10-29T00:30:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_r.htm 2015-10-29T00:31:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:32:41Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2015-10-29T00:32:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:33:29Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:33:43Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:33:45Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:33:46Z keen__________ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:34:58Z keen_________ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:39:52Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:41:04Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T00:41:44Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: m) 2015-10-29T00:47:41Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:51:50Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:52:59Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2015-10-29T00:56:17Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-29T00:58:24Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:02:52Z Atr3YU joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:03:08Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T01:03:52Z lisp402: okay 2015-10-29T01:04:01Z lisp402: can anyone help me further 2015-10-29T01:04:29Z pjb: On #clnoobs, they help newbies. 2015-10-29T01:04:36Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:05:22Z pjb: lisp402: try: /join #clnoobs and ask your question. 2015-10-29T01:06:51Z kons quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:08:33Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:09:02Z pjb: apparently, lisp402 doesn't need any further help. 2015-10-29T01:11:06Z Atr3YU quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 41.0.1/20150929144111]) 2015-10-29T01:12:21Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:28:48Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:30:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:34:12Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T01:34:42Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-29T01:35:06Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:38:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:40:19Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:40:40Z voidlily_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:40:57Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:41:01Z voidlily_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T01:41:51Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:45:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:46:05Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:46:43Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T01:48:45Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:48:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-29T01:50:10Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-29T01:52:33Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:04:03Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:06:05Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:06:28Z ajf-: is there an append-like function that has side effects ? 2015-10-29T02:06:55Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-29T02:07:15Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:08:10Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T02:08:19Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:09:43Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T02:10:11Z Bike: nconc 2015-10-29T02:11:18Z lisp402 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:11:26Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:13:13Z Zhivago: The term you may be looking for is 'destructive'. 2015-10-29T02:14:32Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:15:16Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-29T02:15:24Z earl-ducaine: pjb: Norvig in his PAIP uses the term 'byte-code interpreter' several times when talking about the execution of compiled Lisp code. He is also very careful define precisely what he means by the the term interpreter. I would say not only is the terminology fine. It's prefered over execute. Particularly in the context of CL. 2015-10-29T02:16:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:18:44Z ajf-: what is the element type of 'a ? I have an integer (1) and a character (a), and I wish to form '1a 2015-10-29T02:19:36Z ajf-: symbol ok 2015-10-29T02:19:40Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-29T02:19:40Z Zhivago: '1a evaluates to a symbol. 2015-10-29T02:19:57Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T02:20:06Z Zhivago: See FORMAT and INTERN, probably. 2015-10-29T02:20:19Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:20:26Z nyef: Also note that 'a is distinct from #\a on two counts. 2015-10-29T02:20:39Z nyef: ... maybe three. 2015-10-29T02:20:57Z Zhivago: earl: What does 'prefered over execute' mean? 2015-10-29T02:21:25Z ajf-: (intern (format nil "~a~a" int-var char-var)) 2015-10-29T02:21:30Z ajf-: I get |1a| though 2015-10-29T02:21:45Z Zhivago: ajf: That is what you asked for. 2015-10-29T02:22:03Z Zhivago: ajf: If you want to remove the || then convert it to the appropriate case -- probably upper. 2015-10-29T02:22:46Z phf: well, you can't get 1a without || since it starts with 1 2015-10-29T02:23:15Z ekinmur quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-29T02:23:23Z ajf-: uhm 2015-10-29T02:23:57Z ajf-: ok got another way around it thanks 2015-10-29T02:24:17Z Zhivago: ajf: What you are trying to do is probably misguided -- what is the actual problem? 2015-10-29T02:27:00Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:27:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:27:08Z ajf-: no I have a function that accepts a symbol such as '1a, '2ab etc 2015-10-29T02:27:14Z ajf-: and I need to loop and get them all 2015-10-29T02:27:26Z ajf-: but thankfully I found another function that outputs those symbols so now I can loop through them 2015-10-29T02:28:17Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T02:30:56Z phf: ajf-: your approach while dodgy would've still worked, | is not part of a symbol name when printed, it's an escape character that preserve read/write idempotence 2015-10-29T02:31:18Z ajf-: ah 2015-10-29T02:31:24Z ajf-: thought it was another type 2015-10-29T02:33:38Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T02:34:05Z earl-ducaine: Zhivago: White_Flame's original comment was: yes, compiled to bytecode, which was then interpreted. 2015-10-29T02:35:09Z earl-ducaine: pjb objected to the term 'interpreted' in that case, and suggested execute. But I think interpreted is, if anything, more correct. 2015-10-29T02:35:52Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:36:31Z blackcat13 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:36:35Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T02:36:50Z Zhivago: Well, if it's compiled to machine code, it's still interpreted. 2015-10-29T02:36:54Z Zhivago: It's a silly distinction. 2015-10-29T02:36:57Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:37:10Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T02:37:11Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:38:00Z earl-ducaine: Perhaps, in which case White_Flame was perfectly correct. 2015-10-29T02:39:01Z earl-ducaine: But I would argue that Norvig's definition of an interpreter makes interpret the preferred verb in terms of compiled byte-code: 2015-10-29T02:39:06Z earl-ducaine: An interpreter is a program that looks at some data structure representing a "program" or sequence of rules of some sort and interprets or evaluates those rules. 2015-10-29T02:39:27Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:42:36Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:43:13Z nyef: earl-ducaine: So... a compiler, by that definition, could be an interpreter? 2015-10-29T02:45:24Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:45:53Z Zhivago: The difference between an interpreter and a compiler is that the interpreter produces the output of the program, and a compiler produces a translation of the program. 2015-10-29T02:46:16Z earl-ducaine: nyef: Actually Norvig is very careful to distinguish the two, in the next sentence: 2015-10-29T02:46:17Z earl-ducaine: This is in contrast to a compiler, which translates some set of rules in one language into a program in another language. 2015-10-29T02:46:27Z Zhivago: A system that compiles and then executes the compiled output would be an interpreter. 2015-10-29T02:47:02Z Zhivago: Many interpreters contain compilers -- for example, a compiler to bytecode :) 2015-10-29T02:47:09Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:47:30Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:48:11Z harish joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:49:08Z nyef: So, you wouldn't interpret (defun identity (x) x) as a sequence of rules for outputting a chunk of machine language code that accepts one argument and returns it verbatim? 2015-10-29T02:50:09Z Zhivago: No. Thoes rules would be contained in a compiler. 2015-10-29T02:50:30Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T02:50:31Z aap_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:50:37Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T02:50:43Z phf: earl-ducaine: i don't think pjb's statement was about semantics, what white_flame said about clisp was misleading. one could say that sbcl is a compiler producing an interpreted bytecode which is x86. colloquially though it's handy to say that sbcl is a compiler, and when someone say "it's interpreted" it implies either minimal compilation or complete lack of compilation, which is not the case with clisp 2015-10-29T02:50:44Z Zhivago: (defun identity (x) x) does not contain any machine language code domain knowledge, so it obviously can't be that. 2015-10-29T02:51:46Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:51:50Z Zhivago: I'd say that sbcl is an interpreter using a native code compiler. 2015-10-29T02:52:23Z Zhivago: clisp is an interpreter using a byte-code compiler (and optionally a native code JIT). 2015-10-29T02:52:37Z Zhivago: The problem is that stupid people confuse 'interpreter' with 'slow'. 2015-10-29T02:53:05Z Zhivago: In contrast, stalin is a scheme compiler. 2015-10-29T02:54:26Z nyekundi joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:54:45Z nyekundi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T02:55:37Z nyef: Well, I disagree with your restrictions on the semantics of my little identity fragment, but am too tired to get into a serious argument about it. 2015-10-29T02:55:45Z phf: i would say that clisp is compiler from common lisp to clisp vm bytecode and clisp is also an interpreter of clisp vm bytecode. in which case saying that clisp is an interpreter of _common lisp_ would imply mccarthy style evaluator 2015-10-29T02:55:52Z loke: Well, the people who dismiss things like Java and Lisp using terms like "interpreted" and "slow", happily uses Python which is not only a pure interpreter, it's also slow as... well, something very slow. 2015-10-29T02:56:37Z nyef: loke: Not Molasses in January in Boston. 2015-10-29T02:57:16Z nyef: (35 miles/hour, according to Wikipedia.) 2015-10-29T02:57:44Z phf: python actually has a compiler to python bytecode and a corresponding interpreter. neither are particularly good, but the slowness doesn't even come from that fact, but the fact that all lookups are done through hashtables 2015-10-29T02:57:49Z loke: nyef: Yeah, I heard aboutt he molasses flood :-) 2015-10-29T02:58:01Z Zhivago: phf: Can clisp run common-lisp programs? If so, it is an interpreter. How it gets that job done is independent of that. 2015-10-29T02:58:32Z earl-ducaine: phf: his statement: "byte code is not interpreted, it's executed. You don't say that java is interpreted!" Made it sound, to me, as though he was saying byte-code, by definition, is executed, not interpreted. 2015-10-29T02:58:37Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T02:58:59Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T02:59:07Z Zhivago: And the difference between 'executed' and 'interpreted' is supposed to be what? 2015-10-29T02:59:39Z loke: I think there is plenty of preaching to the converted here right now. I think everyboudy agrees that these days the distinction between "interpreted" vs. "compiled" is incredibly blurred. 2015-10-29T02:59:56Z Zhivago: The distinction between interpreted and compiled is razor clear. 2015-10-29T03:00:25Z nyef: ... Meaning, completely opaque, and made of thin, flexible steel? 2015-10-29T03:00:27Z loke: Zhivago: Of course, using _one_ specific definition of the terms. 2015-10-29T03:00:30Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:00:34Z Zhivago: Using the only one which is meaningful. 2015-10-29T03:01:05Z loke: Of course. Depedning on the definition of "meaningful" 2015-10-29T03:03:09Z earl-ducaine: Zhivago: I don't feel especially strongly one way or the other. But if one is to be preferred a good case could be made that should be: 'interpret', which is sanctioned by a major work in the CL literature. 2015-10-29T03:03:26Z phf: Zhivago: we agree on the basic definitions, but i think that clisp nature is twofold, and calling it one or another is going to create this sort of needless semantic arguments 2015-10-29T03:03:46Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T03:05:03Z phf: in fact earl-ducaine is using same definitions, but is dismissing the other part of the clisp nature 2015-10-29T03:05:55Z Bike: you'll all be sorry when i release my port of ccl to silicon 2015-10-29T03:08:07Z loke: Bike: I wouldn't be sorry. I'd jump up and down in joy. 2015-10-29T03:10:08Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T03:18:30Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-29T03:21:08Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T03:24:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:25:16Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:25:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to modify the lambda list of an already defined function? 2015-10-29T03:26:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: or macro? 2015-10-29T03:26:05Z pillton: Why? 2015-10-29T03:26:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to replace &rest with &body 2015-10-29T03:26:37Z pillton: Just redefine the function. 2015-10-29T03:26:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: In a library from quicklisp 2015-10-29T03:27:07Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T03:28:46Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:28:48Z pillton: Is this for indenting? 2015-10-29T03:29:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, in slimv 2015-10-29T03:29:27Z pillton: I think slime has a contrib which allows you to define the indentation for certain forms. 2015-10-29T03:29:32Z pillton: It is on my TODO list. 2015-10-29T03:29:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does it work with slimv? 2015-10-29T03:29:54Z Xach: cl-indent supports setting indentation via symbol plist stuff, iirc. 2015-10-29T03:29:59Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T03:30:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or were you saying that you maintain slimv?) 2015-10-29T03:30:37Z pillton: I don't know if it works with slimv. 2015-10-29T03:30:45Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T03:30:48Z pillton: I don't maintain slimv either. 2015-10-29T03:30:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, I think there's s plugin for that 2015-10-29T03:32:04Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T03:32:47Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:32:58Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:33:29Z mordocai: Hey everyone! I'm new to using quicklisp and am getting https://www.refheap.com/111173 when trying to install swank. What do? 2015-10-29T03:33:49Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-29T03:33:55Z mordocai: I read the package locks section of sbcl as suggested and i get there is a conflict but I don't know what package SB-C is nor how to fix the issue. 2015-10-29T03:34:19Z Xach: mordocai: one option is to use an up-to-date sbcl 2015-10-29T03:34:25Z Xach: 1.1.18 is pretty old 2015-10-29T03:34:49Z mordocai: Ah, did not realize that 2015-10-29T03:35:08Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-29T03:35:11Z mordocai: I'm using gentoo, is 1.2.16 up to date? 2015-10-29T03:35:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: mordocai: I think that's the latest release 2015-10-29T03:36:17Z mordocai: Kk, compiling and i'll try again. Thanks for the quick answer Xach :) 2015-10-29T03:38:40Z arrubin quit 2015-10-29T03:46:09Z nyef: Most recent is 1.2.16, unless we had a release in the past few hours. 2015-10-29T03:46:38Z resttime: LineM the second drawing application ever written with Common Lisp in the whole wide world (I think where Parasol is the first) is now available in good condition! https://github.com/resttime/linem 2015-10-29T03:47:44Z nyef: resttime: Cute. How well will it work with a Wacom stylus? 2015-10-29T03:48:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:48:30Z Xach wonders whether symbolics drawing programs were in CL or in zetalisp 2015-10-29T03:48:58Z Xach: resttime: very cool 2015-10-29T03:48:59Z resttime: nyef: As well as with a mouse 2015-10-29T03:49:42Z resttime: Xach: Thanks 2015-10-29T03:49:50Z mordocai: For any other gentoo users, latest gentoo sbcl doesn't like latest gentoo asdf. Have to use asdf 3.1.5 per bug report. 2015-10-29T03:49:50Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:49:58Z nyef: resttime: So... no pressure or tilt dynamics? 2015-10-29T03:50:09Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:50:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: "arithmetic error FLOATING-POINT-OVERFLOW" 2015-10-29T03:50:16Z Xach: mordocai: sbcl includes asdf. 2015-10-29T03:50:29Z mordocai: Xach: Yeah, I think gentoo is doing something weird 2015-10-29T03:50:38Z Xach: i don't know anything about gentoo, sorry, but sbcl should generally use what it includes 2015-10-29T03:51:00Z resttime: nyef: Correct, I'm wondering if I should add that as a feature or start a whole new application with painting capabilities for it. 2015-10-29T03:51:08Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-29T03:51:26Z mordocai: "Right, sbcl-1.2.16 ships with asdf-3.1.5, but the sbcl-1.2.16 ebuild copies the current installed asdf version (line 121): cp "${EPREFIX}"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/asdf/build/asdf.lisp contrib/asdf/ || die" 2015-10-29T03:51:30Z mordocai: So yeah, gentoo does weird shit 2015-10-29T03:51:32Z mordocai: Seems stupid 2015-10-29T03:52:39Z nyef: The general advice given is not to trust vendor packages for common lisp stuff. 2015-10-29T03:54:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's basically the programmer's motto 2015-10-29T03:54:09Z pillton: nyef: Proof CL is not dead. 2015-10-29T03:54:18Z mordocai: lol yeah. I like auto updates is the only reason I bother trying. 2015-10-29T03:54:37Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:55:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be nice to have a CL implementation that could upgrade itself. 2015-10-29T03:55:43Z mordocai: I'm sure I could hack together an init script that'd do it but bleh 2015-10-29T03:55:44Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: It would be nice to have a CL implementation that could debug itself. 2015-10-29T03:55:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: On first run, it could dump and image into the user's $HOME 2015-10-29T03:56:10Z nyef: Periodically, it could check for new bugs on launchpad... 2015-10-29T03:56:13Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T03:56:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm 2015-10-29T03:56:50Z nyef: An AI-complete problem, of course. 2015-10-29T03:57:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: oh-my-zsh pings some server every once in a while and offers to do a git pull 2015-10-29T03:57:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a shell script can do it . . . 2015-10-29T03:58:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is (defun (setf blah) . . .) special? 2015-10-29T03:58:11Z Bike: no 2015-10-29T03:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: How would one go about defining something like that? 2015-10-29T03:58:46Z Bike: something like what? 2015-10-29T03:59:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. a function named by a list 2015-10-29T03:59:26Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T03:59:28Z Bike: oh, it is special in that you can only do that with (setf foo), standardly. 2015-10-29T03:59:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah 2015-10-29T03:59:53Z Bike: (several implementations allow other list function names, but don't export the functionality to users) 2015-10-29T04:00:07Z mordocai: Is there some quicklisp thing I should do when I upgrade sbcl? Now getting an different error in my swank compile. 2015-10-29T04:00:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: They should just make it a thing 2015-10-29T04:00:24Z loke: mordocai: No. It should just work 2015-10-29T04:00:30Z Xach: mordocai: what error now? 2015-10-29T04:00:37Z loke: mordocai: What's the error you're getting? 2015-10-29T04:00:45Z mordocai: Sigh, one sec. Pastebinning 2015-10-29T04:00:50Z namespace: I'm currently having trouble figuring out how to get my caveman2 project running for Hello World. 2015-10-29T04:01:09Z loke: namespace: What's caveman? 2015-10-29T04:01:32Z namespace: loke: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman 2015-10-29T04:01:49Z loke: namespace: Oh. 2015-10-29T04:01:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: namespace: do you have the cl-annot package setup? 2015-10-29T04:02:07Z loke: namespace: I built my own infrastructure for my project 2015-10-29T04:02:20Z loke: Including a template compiler (very fast) 2015-10-29T04:02:57Z namespace: fiddlerwoaroof: Nah, the current error is that when I run app.lisp (I think that's where I'm supposed to start it) quicklisp isn't a package recognized because it's not stored wherever sbcl looks for packages. I think. 2015-10-29T04:02:59Z Xach: loke: are any bits shared? 2015-10-29T04:03:07Z mordocai: https://www.refheap.com/111174 2015-10-29T04:03:07Z mordocai: 2015-10-29T04:03:07Z mordocai: 2015-10-29T04:03:09Z loke: Xach: Yes. Everything 2015-10-29T04:03:18Z Xach: loke: on lokedhs on github? 2015-10-29T04:03:20Z loke: Well, the application itself isn't opensourced yet, but the rest is 2015-10-29T04:03:20Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:03:22Z loke: Yes 2015-10-29T04:03:24Z Xach: ok 2015-10-29T04:03:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: namespace: ah, you should load quicklis's setup.lisp at the beginning of the file for now 2015-10-29T04:03:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: ? 2015-10-29T04:03:39Z namespace: fiddlerwoaroof: (load)? 2015-10-29T04:03:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah 2015-10-29T04:03:46Z loke: Xach: This one contains the template enginge: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn 2015-10-29T04:03:47Z namespace: That's what I figured. 2015-10-29T04:03:48Z Xach: i have been (re)doing my own thing based on my experience with wigflip.com but i'd like to upgrade parts of it as appropriate 2015-10-29T04:03:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: unless you already have asdf set up 2015-10-29T04:04:02Z loke: But it needs documentation, and should probably be broken out of the web framework code. 2015-10-29T04:04:06Z namespace: fiddlerwoaroof: I do have asdf set up. 2015-10-29T04:04:32Z Xach: mordocai: gentoo's swank is too old 2015-10-29T04:04:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, you might just see if adding (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") a the top of your main file fixes thigns 2015-10-29T04:05:03Z mordocai: Sigh, i see how that's happening. 2015-10-29T04:05:05Z namespace nods 2015-10-29T04:05:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, namespace, if asdf is working properly, you shouldn't need any quickloads in your file 2015-10-29T04:05:32Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:06:30Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T04:06:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: you can also load quicklisp in the .asd file, I think 2015-10-29T04:07:02Z Xach: not ideal 2015-10-29T04:07:18Z ajf-: so I'm trying to do (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) ... ) to avoid some function prints but now even my (format)'s are not shown 2015-10-29T04:07:19Z ajf-: any ideas 2015-10-29T04:07:41Z Xach: ajf-: format also uses *standard-output* 2015-10-29T04:07:44Z setheus joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:08:10Z ajf-: Xach instead of using format, (setf *standard-output* (format ...)) ? 2015-10-29T04:08:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: you could save the original *standard-output* to another variable 2015-10-29T04:08:19Z ajf-: for the second time 2015-10-29T04:08:24Z Xach: ajf-: no. 2015-10-29T04:08:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: then (format real-std-out . . .) 2015-10-29T04:08:57Z Xach: ajf-: you could be more selective in your silencing, and if you need to do it a lot, make it a function or macro, e.g. (silently (noisy-function ...)) 2015-10-29T04:09:17Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T04:09:41Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:10:25Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:11:12Z drmeister: Hey loke - I upgraded Clasp to llvm3.7 - it's not quite ready for primetime but soon. 2015-10-29T04:11:27Z loke: drmeister: Ah, so I can try to build again? 2015-10-29T04:11:50Z loke: drmeister: When Potato builds and runs on clasp, a milestone has been reached. :-) 2015-10-29T04:12:24Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T04:12:58Z drmeister: Soon. Shinmera has automatic builder software that hasn't been able to build it yet. I just wanted to tell you that I spent two days reworking everything to accommodate the changes in the llvm API from 3.6 to 3.7. 2015-10-29T04:12:59Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T04:13:38Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:13:45Z drmeister: Right now I'm supporting 3.6 and 3.7 because many distros are still only providing llvm3.6 and it would be very difficult to create one version of Clasp that supported both. 2015-10-29T04:13:51Z loke: local.config.redhat contains lots of paths that are hardcoded to /home/meister 2015-10-29T04:13:52Z drmeister: llvm is a fast moving target. 2015-10-29T04:13:56Z loke: do I need to change those? 2015-10-29T04:14:15Z GrizzlyNinja quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T04:14:19Z drmeister: That is a very, very old file. I would look at local.config.template. 2015-10-29T04:14:57Z benaiah left #lisp 2015-10-29T04:15:11Z drmeister: FYI though - I'm putting the llvm3.7 version in the testing_37 branch. If you find yourself extremely bored and want to potentially sink a few hours into a hole you are welcome to try and build it. 2015-10-29T04:15:21Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T04:15:24Z drmeister: I built it or I wouldn't be here but Shinmera's machines haven't managed it yet. 2015-10-29T04:15:50Z drmeister: If you try - can you tell me how it turns out? 2015-10-29T04:16:20Z namespace: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah adding a load seems to have fixed it. 2015-10-29T04:16:29Z loke: drmeister: Bug report: README.md says the TARGET_OS value for linux should be "linux". That's wrong, it should be "Linux". 2015-10-29T04:16:34Z namespace: Or at least, fixed that particular bug. >_> 2015-10-29T04:16:45Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:16:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-29T04:17:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: good morning beach 2015-10-29T04:17:33Z drmeister: You are correct - I will correct that now. We started using "uname" to get the OS name and it provides things like Linux and Darwin - with the first letter capitalized. 2015-10-29T04:17:36Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2015-10-29T04:17:41Z loke: drmeister: I tried to do a clean build, and got this error very quickly: 2015-10-29T04:17:41Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157728 2015-10-29T04:17:45Z drmeister: Whatever problem I was having this morning I solved. 2015-10-29T04:19:57Z drmeister: loke: Did you clone fresh or did you use the directory you previously had? 2015-10-29T04:20:04Z loke: drmeister: Completely fresh 2015-10-29T04:20:22Z loke: Well, I deleted everything and and did git reset --hard 2015-10-29T04:20:31Z drmeister: Whenever I see: fatal: reference is not a tree: 7ea5b50e... it suggests a problem with submodules. 2015-10-29T04:20:59Z loke: Yeah. git submodule update gives me this: 2015-10-29T04:21:04Z loke: fatal: reference is not a tree: 77ea5b50ebb8b7550194c92987cece3e0bb09da8 2015-10-29T04:21:04Z loke: Unable to checkout '77ea5b50ebb8b7550194c92987cece3e0bb09da8' in submodule path 'tools/boost_build' 2015-10-29T04:21:13Z udyant joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:21:19Z drmeister: That suggests something is still being carried over from before. 2015-10-29T04:21:25Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T04:21:33Z udyant quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T04:21:34Z drmeister: I'd nuke it from orbit (rm -rf clasp) and git clone again. 2015-10-29T04:21:46Z loke: git submodule sync seemed to do the trick 2015-10-29T04:22:10Z loke: Thanks 2015-10-29T04:22:22Z drmeister: Ah. FYI clasp has a "make clean" target and it does "git submodule sync" . 2015-10-29T04:22:31Z drmeister: Good to know that that may fix things. 2015-10-29T04:22:40Z drmeister: On to the next fatal build error! 2015-10-29T04:22:49Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T04:23:29Z drmeister likes his build systems the way he likes his women - unpredictable and feisty. 2015-10-29T04:23:52Z drmeister is going to get smacked upside the head by his SO 2015-10-29T04:24:11Z loke: drmeister: Really? Is clasp that violent? 2015-10-29T04:24:27Z drmeister: Funny - because it's almost true. 2015-10-29T04:25:49Z loke: drmeister:OK, got a build error for you 2015-10-29T04:26:02Z drmeister: Ok 2015-10-29T04:26:34Z Zhivago: drmeister: You could say that you do not consider your SO to be a woman. :) 2015-10-29T04:26:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T04:27:30Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:27:33Z mordocai: So verging into a stumpwm issue rather than quicklisp.... Loading swank in sbcl repl works fine, but not in stumpwm. Stumpwm says component not found "swank". What does this usually mean? (asked on stumpwm but it is lightly trafficed so usually takes awhile to get an answer) 2015-10-29T04:27:56Z loke: drmeister: The same as previously, I think 2015-10-29T04:28:14Z drmeister: Argh. 2015-10-29T04:28:54Z loke: There are a lot of errors. I'll paste a few. 2015-10-29T04:29:24Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157729 2015-10-29T04:29:25Z mordocai: Nvm, figured it out. It was using an old binary 2015-10-29T04:30:34Z ajf-: the arguments I use in functions don't redefine lisp's functions right? e.g. (defun myfunc (number) ( ... )) ... I can safely use (number) inside 2015-10-29T04:31:33Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T04:32:04Z drmeister: Hmm, I fixed the "mix(...)" macro - why is it back - one sec.... 2015-10-29T04:32:33Z loke: The first error I see is a missing #include: 2015-10-29T04:32:34Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157730 2015-10-29T04:32:39Z beach: ajf-: Yes. 2015-10-29T04:32:52Z ajf-: great thanks 2015-10-29T04:33:38Z loke: drmeister: also, amd I using the right branch? 2015-10-29T04:33:48Z voidlily quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T04:33:52Z drmeister: You may be - and I may not have updated it. 2015-10-29T04:33:52Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:34:00Z drmeister: You are using testing_37 - correct? 2015-10-29T04:34:02Z loke: I'm on testing 2015-10-29T04:34:20Z drmeister: Ohhhh, you need testing_37 2015-10-29T04:34:20Z loke: How can I tell what is mych active change ID i'm on? 2015-10-29T04:34:25Z drmeister: testing is for llvm36 2015-10-29T04:34:34Z drmeister: git branch 2015-10-29T04:34:44Z drmeister: is that what you are asking? 2015-10-29T04:34:48Z blubjr left #lisp 2015-10-29T04:34:49Z drmeister: "change ID"? 2015-10-29T04:34:50Z loke: yeah thanks :-) 2015-10-29T04:34:56Z loke: OK, I'm testing with _37 2015-10-29T04:35:00Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:35:51Z foom joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:38:56Z drmeister: Ok - I just pushed a few updates to testing_37. 2015-10-29T04:39:03Z drmeister: You might want to stop, pull and rerun. 2015-10-29T04:39:22Z loke: Well, it just failed anyway 2015-10-29T04:39:26Z loke: does your fix fix this? 2015-10-29T04:39:26Z loke: ../../include/clasp/llvmo/llvmoExpose.h:49:10: fatal error: 'llvm/PassManager.h' file not found 2015-10-29T04:39:26Z loke: #include <llvm/PassManager.h> 2015-10-29T04:40:26Z drmeister: No, that shouldn't be happening. 2015-10-29T04:42:20Z PuercoPop: loke: do you have an example template for your template? I remember you posted on previously but can't find it. It seems well implement in comparison with djula 2015-10-29T04:43:32Z drmeister: That file appears to have moved to llvm/IR/PassManager.h - why am I finding it on my system at llvm/PassManager.h 2015-10-29T04:43:44Z loke: PuercoPop: As soon as the potato source is released, there will be a lot. For now, let me post one of its files for you 2015-10-29T04:43:50Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T04:43:57Z namespace: Yes I got it running! 2015-10-29T04:44:00Z namespace tutorial time 2015-10-29T04:44:24Z drmeister: loke: Oh, I know what's going on. I have an unholy melding of llvm37 and llvm36 on my system. 2015-10-29T04:45:05Z drmeister: I must have installed all of the llvm37 include files on top of the llvm36 include files and so some old include paths are finding the old files. 2015-10-29T04:45:19Z drmeister: Ok, I have some more work to do - I'll fix it tomorrow. 2015-10-29T04:45:58Z loke: PuercoPop: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157732 2015-10-29T04:46:16Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T04:46:27Z PuercoPop: loke: thanks 2015-10-29T04:47:00Z loke: PuercoPop: The compiler generates a compiled function where statis text is preconverted to binary so that any static is just a single call to WRITE-SEQUENCE 2015-10-29T04:47:10Z loke: That's what makes it pretty fast. 2015-10-29T04:48:21Z beach: White_Flame: Still around? 2015-10-29T04:48:37Z White_Flame just returned 2015-10-29T04:48:51Z beach: White_Flame: Can you elaborate on this: In thinking about multi-user Lisp image/machine security (ie, users within the lisp image, not side-band attackers), restricting access to symbols at the package level could likely provide good security boundaries. 2015-10-29T04:49:26Z loke: PuercoPop: There is also direct support for file mappings, evaluated ad compile-time (when compiled JS files or Less-output creates files with random characters in their names so prevent caching issues) 2015-10-29T04:50:01Z White_Flame: beach: the thought is to secure a set of functions/variables by preventing unprivileged users from ever being able to instantiate a reference to the symbols which anchor those privileged items 2015-10-29T04:50:11Z PuercoPop: loke: the code is understandable as well so even if it weren't fast it would compare favourably to djula. Did you looked at other CL templates before writing yours? 2015-10-29T04:50:20Z loke: PuercoPop: Yes. :-) 2015-10-29T04:50:27Z loke: Didn't like any of them. 2015-10-29T04:50:43Z beach: White_Flame: So you are assuming that functions/variables are stored in slots in the symbol? 2015-10-29T04:50:54Z beach: White_Flame: Another option is to use first-class global environments like SICL does. 2015-10-29T04:50:57Z hjs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:51:10Z namespace: But just in case anybody was wondering: How caveman2 works is it generates a template project as an asdf package, and you have to manually add that to asdf's path and then load it. 2015-10-29T04:51:17Z beach: White_Flame: To me, storing functions/variables in symbols is a kludge. 2015-10-29T04:51:33Z Bike: Hee. 2015-10-29T04:51:37Z PuercoPop: loke: does for only iterate lists? 2015-10-29T04:51:38Z White_Flame: beach: how would one cross from one environment to another? especially fi that's crossing a security boundary? 2015-10-29T04:51:50Z loke: PuercoPop: That is what for does, yes. 2015-10-29T04:51:55Z White_Flame: also, isn't an "environment" generally a list of bindings to symbols? 2015-10-29T04:52:05Z loke: There is also the "repeat" construct, which is simewhat limited. 2015-10-29T04:52:18Z loke: PuercoPop: Were you looking for something else? 2015-10-29T04:52:33Z beach: White_Flame: I'll answer the second one: That doesn't mean that the binding is part of the symbol. It can be in a separate entity. 2015-10-29T04:52:39Z White_Flame: certainly 2015-10-29T04:53:00Z White_Flame: for instance, thread-local dynamic bindings 2015-10-29T04:53:07Z beach: White_Flame: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf 2015-10-29T04:53:13Z drmeister: loke: Thanks for trying that out - you uncovered some problems that I couldn't uncover here because I installed llvm37 on top of llvm36 - I'll be back 2015-10-29T04:53:36Z White_Flame: beach: I do appreciate that many of your papers are just a few pages long 2015-10-29T04:53:44Z loke: drmeister: Thanks :-) 2015-10-29T04:53:49Z beach: Bah, restrictions imposed by the conference. :) 2015-10-29T04:53:54Z White_Flame: heh 2015-10-29T04:55:00Z PuercoPop: loke: yeah I was looking to extend djula to allow to extend iteration for custom classes. Have the starts of a rewrite in the works. 2015-10-29T04:55:43Z hjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T04:55:55Z PuercoPop: anyhow, time to sleep. Peace out 2015-10-29T04:56:05Z White_Flame: I am a bit pressed for time, but it seems that the environment is always explicitly referenced in this protocol 2015-10-29T04:56:11Z beach: White_Flame: In SICL, the symbol only stores its package. Bindings are stored in a first-class global environment. 2015-10-29T04:56:40Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, but there is a function (global-environment) that will return the global environment. 2015-10-29T04:56:44Z loke: PuercoPop: Try loading the lofn package and run the following, as a demo: 2015-10-29T04:56:45Z loke: (lofn::debug-parser "This is an example <% for some-list #bar end %>" t) 2015-10-29T04:56:58Z beach: We can discuss this when you have more time. 2015-10-29T04:57:15Z loke: PuercoPop: adding custom iteration functions to Lofn should be trivial 2015-10-29T04:57:16Z White_Flame: is there a setter for the global environment to swap between them? 2015-10-29T04:57:41Z White_Flame: I'm thinking about a potentially mutli-user system, where they each have their own environment implicit in their evaluations 2015-10-29T04:57:44Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, there will be one, but I am not sure how it will look. 2015-10-29T04:58:09Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, that's the plan. First-class global environments are a requirement for a multi-user LispOS. 2015-10-29T04:58:23Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T04:58:36Z White_Flame: I think it's more of a preference issue, if all the universe exists, but you can't see some of it, vs multiple universes exist (an insufficient way of stating this, though) 2015-10-29T04:59:05Z loke: PuercoPop: Probably more realistic: (lofn::debug-parser "This is an example: <ul><% for some-list %><li><% #bar %></li><% end %></ul>" t) 2015-10-29T04:59:08Z White_Flame: especially considering debugging, where the stack frame hops from user code into the privileged core 2015-10-29T04:59:52Z White_Flame: an unprivileged user in my thinking simply wouldn't be able to see deeper, while a privileged user has unified access all the way down. Not sure what that would be like with separate environments 2015-10-29T05:00:29Z beach: White_Flame: With first-class global environments, each user will be able to (say) add methods to PRINT-OBJECT without other users being affected. 2015-10-29T05:00:41Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:00:44Z White_Flame: true 2015-10-29T05:01:07Z beach: White_Flame: If PRINT-OBJECT were stored in a symbol, you would have to restrict it, which would severely impact what users can do. 2015-10-29T05:01:17Z beach: Or, you would have a different kind of Lisp system. 2015-10-29T05:01:28Z White_Flame: well, multimethods which cross access boundaries, or cross environments, would be "interesting" 2015-10-29T05:02:06Z beach: White_Flame: Sure. I am just telling you where my thinking lead me. I would be interested in knowing where your thinking will lead you. 2015-10-29T05:02:19Z White_Flame: right, there are advantages either way 2015-10-29T05:02:30Z White_Flame: and in the idea phase, the more brains the better 2015-10-29T05:02:38Z beach: White_Flame: Yep. 2015-10-29T05:02:45Z White_Flame: even if there are 2 different, separate results 2015-10-29T05:02:50Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:03:09Z White_Flame: certainly a good addition to the list of ponderable things 2015-10-29T05:03:19Z beach: White_Flame: Let me just advise you to start thinking in terms of first-class global environments (as one option) and see how that changes things. It can become quite interesting. 2015-10-29T05:04:20Z beach: The paper also shows how to make it fast to access functions referred to by name, despite this indirection that first-class global environments represent. 2015-10-29T05:04:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:05:35Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:05:44Z voidlily joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:06:23Z ajf-: I'd like to check whether two lists of integers of the same length are the same except for an allowed difference of "1" in just 1 of the numbers ( example: 1 2 3 , 2 2 3 - difference: 1 0 0 -- ok). I tried the following: 2015-10-29T05:06:45Z ajf-: (abs (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'- lista listb ))) 2015-10-29T05:07:06Z ajf-: but not a good idea since after the mapcar, if I get (-1 0 3 -1), they reduce to 1 2015-10-29T05:07:10Z pillton: beach: Can we upgrade from multi-user LispOS to secure LispOS? The fact that any process belonging to the same user can read your address book is an issue. 2015-10-29T05:08:01Z White_Flame: pillton: that's been a beef of mine with computer security for a long time, too 2015-10-29T05:08:04Z beach: pillton: I can't solve all the wold's problems at once. 2015-10-29T05:08:14Z White_Flame: applications should have less access than I do interactively 2015-10-29T05:08:26Z pjb: earl-ducaine: Norvig switched to be a python programmer. I'd take anything he wrote with a grain of salt… 2015-10-29T05:08:47Z pillton: beach: I wasn't asking you to solve it. I wanted to change the advertisement. 2015-10-29T05:08:51Z pillton: :) 2015-10-29T05:09:02Z beach: Oh, I see. Sorry. 2015-10-29T05:09:03Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:09:21Z White_Flame: but all of that starts with defining security boundaries within the lisp image 2015-10-29T05:09:37Z pillton: You could have a first class environment which audits all of the lookups. 2015-10-29T05:10:07Z pillton: A Kerberized lisp perhaps! 2015-10-29T05:10:07Z beach: I am planning an "object store" that will convert from ACLs to capabilities. 2015-10-29T05:11:01Z earl-ducaine: pjb: now your just trolling :) 2015-10-29T05:11:12Z pjb: ;-) 2015-10-29T05:11:16Z beach: earl-ducaine: I don't think he is no. 2015-10-29T05:11:23Z beach: pillton: Auditing all lookups would be too slow. 2015-10-29T05:12:24Z beach: pillton: Actually, let me take that back. It would be too slow to check permission every time you call a function by name. 2015-10-29T05:12:49Z pillton: beach: Probably. There would be nothing stopping one from introducing something which issues environments. 2015-10-29T05:13:21Z beach: Anyway, I haven't figured out all the details. But I think I have a pretty good idea of the big picture at this point. 2015-10-29T05:13:28Z pillton: This environment requires $1 in pillton's bank account. 2015-10-29T05:13:34Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:14:36Z beach: White_Flame: More reading for you (when you have time. No rush): http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html 2015-10-29T05:15:20Z beach: pillton: You have seen it already, right? 2015-10-29T05:15:27Z pillton: I think so. 2015-10-29T05:15:32Z White_Flame: pretty sure I've read it, but will reread 2015-10-29T05:15:47Z beach: Again, no rush. 2015-10-29T05:16:08Z beach: But I have a feeling that I am on the right track this time. 2015-10-29T05:16:15Z beach: Only time will tell. 2015-10-29T05:16:16Z White_Flame: however, I'm not super interested in an on-the-metal OS, but more a nice inclusive dev & application environment running on top of an existing OS which provides all the file/networking/media/etc services 2015-10-29T05:16:47Z beach: Right. The bare-metal part is not very interesting. 2015-10-29T05:17:00Z beach: It is trivial to accomplish too. The rest is much harder. 2015-10-29T05:18:14Z beach: Though it seems that the "metal" part is what generates excitement. 2015-10-29T05:19:24Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-29T05:19:35Z pjb: I hope sicl also keeps the name of the symbol. 2015-10-29T05:19:36Z beach: By the way, there is new technology that may make orthogonal persistence much cheaper very soon (like next year): http://www.micron.com/about/innovations/3d-xpoint-technology 2015-10-29T05:19:46Z beach: pjb: Heh. Yes. Thanks! 2015-10-29T05:20:04Z pillton: I'd say there would be a place for lisp on GPUs. 2015-10-29T05:20:39Z beach: pillton: I'll leave that to you. I am not smart enough to think that far. 2015-10-29T05:20:44Z White_Flame still grumpily waits for memristors 2015-10-29T05:21:03Z Bike: you can buy memristors. 2015-10-29T05:21:13Z Bike: lisp on GPUs would run into the problem of yay capital 2015-10-29T05:21:18Z White_Flame: memristors in nv-ram packaging etc 2015-10-29T05:21:44Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:22:16Z pillton: beach: I can't solve all of the problems at once. 2015-10-29T05:22:32Z Bike: heh, adamatzky edited a book on memristors with chua, of course he did 2015-10-29T05:22:50Z beach: pillton: Too late. You brought it up. Now you have to do it. :) 2015-10-29T05:23:14Z pillton waits for |3b| to get online. 2015-10-29T05:23:24Z Bike: http://www.memristor.org/electronics/807/panasonic-reram-nonvolatile-memory-microprocessor-kit totally reliable website here suggests memristor nvram comin up, that's kinda neat 2015-10-29T05:24:12Z hratsimi1ah quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:24:22Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:26:51Z hratsimihah joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:27:00Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:30:27Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:32:22Z kaleun quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:32:52Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-29T05:33:32Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T05:33:51Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:35:07Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-10-29T05:35:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:36:59Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T05:37:55Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:39:38Z kaleun joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:42:35Z ew6nm joined #lisp 2015-10-29T05:43:51Z ew6nm quit (Quit: Panic.) 2015-10-29T05:44:09Z |3b|: pillton: ? 2015-10-29T05:48:31Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:49:08Z ajf-: yay recursive function 2015-10-29T05:51:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T05:52:26Z cmoney quit 2015-10-29T05:55:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T05:55:51Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-29T05:59:54Z beach: |3b|: I think he wants you to implement Common Lisp on a GPU. :) 2015-10-29T06:01:25Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:01:40Z |3b|: ah, i'd probably do cmlisp or *lisp rather than actual CL if i were implementing an existing lisp 2015-10-29T06:02:01Z beach: That would be a lot more feasible. 2015-10-29T06:02:21Z |3b| will probably focus on "shader" style programming rather than general purpose lisp for now though 2015-10-29T06:05:48Z Octophore` is now known as Octophore 2015-10-29T06:05:57Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T06:06:23Z paul0` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:07:50Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T06:10:06Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:14:32Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:18:49Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:19:13Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:19:27Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T06:23:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:26:06Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T06:29:12Z Octophore is now known as Octophore` 2015-10-29T06:34:24Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:34:57Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-29T06:37:00Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-29T06:38:48Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T06:39:27Z nzambe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T06:40:49Z pillton: |3b|: Yeah. I don't want full CL. A subset would be sufficient. 2015-10-29T06:41:07Z pillton apologises. 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aeth: I see :-) 2015-10-29T10:50:35Z loke: Care to paste some? Just to see if I lay it out the same as you. 2015-10-29T10:50:59Z aeth: I am not on my computer right now, unfortunately. Only my tablet. 2015-10-29T10:51:23Z aeth: Sorry. 2015-10-29T10:51:54Z loke: Here is mine: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157754 2015-10-29T10:52:42Z aeth: Interesting. } } 2015-10-29T10:52:49Z loke: Added an annotation with the old formatting: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157754#1 2015-10-29T10:52:56Z aeth: I am undecided on if } } or }} is better 2015-10-29T10:53:22Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-10-29T10:53:24Z loke: I find the lisp-style easier to read, but is it just my lisp-mind at work here? 2015-10-29T10:54:14Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-29T10:55:52Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T10:56:17Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T10:56:47Z aeth: Different people have different deviations from the standard styles. It's unfortunate editors aren't smart enough to have different styles for viewing/editing vs sharing with others in a repo. 2015-10-29T10:57:21Z aeth: There are some edge cases where it wouldn't work, e.g. where people use spaces to align things like a table 2015-10-29T10:57:42Z aeth: Like in your paste, actually. 2015-10-29T10:57:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-29T10:58:22Z aeth: Although that would be a local display/edit in my hypothetical. 2015-10-29T10:58:32Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:02:06Z tsoutseki quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T11:02:20Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:04:19Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:05:08Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:09:59Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:12:55Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:13:45Z gaya- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T11:13:53Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:15:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:21:27Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:22:23Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:25:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:27:12Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:30:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:34:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:34:04Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:34:13Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:35:01Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:38:25Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:43:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:44:03Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:46:54Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-29T11:47:23Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:53:09Z alejandrozf joined #lisp 2015-10-29T11:56:46Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T11:57:15Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:02:58Z DruidGreeneyes joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:03:09Z alejandrozf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:05:54Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:06:35Z DruidGreeneyes: Shinmera: if you're still interested in looking over those d-bind macros, I put them in a git repo: https://github.com/DruidGreeneyes/cl-dbind 2015-10-29T12:10:43Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:11:10Z zacharias quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-29T12:17:04Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:22:58Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:24:07Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:26:55Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-29T12:27:01Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:27:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:29:16Z DruidGreeneyes quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-10-29T12:30:19Z gendl: Sly is an experimental fork of Slime: 2015-10-29T12:30:20Z gendl: http://capitaomorte.github.io/sly/ 2015-10-29T12:30:47Z gendl: it seems it's a bit controversial, but if our glime could work with it without too much struggle, it would probably be a boon for glime. 2015-10-29T12:31:26Z gendl: Sorry #lisp, wrong window. Tangentially relevant nonetheless. 2015-10-29T12:31:30Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:31:57Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:32:05Z gendl: (... might be a boon for sly as well.) 2015-10-29T12:34:21Z blubjr joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:35:08Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:35:50Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:37:29Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T12:39:44Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:40:47Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:40:50Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T12:42:17Z N0viceLive-amd64 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:42:58Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T12:45:25Z ajf- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:45:43Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:48:04Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T12:50:34Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:50:41Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:50:58Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-29T12:51:18Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T12:59:10Z MaggieAndEazar quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-29T12:59:20Z ZabaQ: What's glime? 2015-10-29T13:02:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:02:35Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:03:09Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:04:33Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:06:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:07:32Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T13:08:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:09:20Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:09:21Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:10:27Z farhaven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T13:17:30Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:17:37Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:18:23Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:18:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:18:41Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:20:27Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:21:33Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:22:39Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:23:37Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:24:37Z andy_arvid joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:26:00Z newdan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:26:16Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:36:03Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T13:37:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T13:39:21Z CLIM-USER|6190 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:44:05Z CLIM-USER|6190 quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T13:46:47Z ziocroc joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:46:59Z knobo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T13:48:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T13:53:22Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:54:20Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:54:41Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T13:56:11Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:56:25Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:57:50Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T13:58:21Z tsoutseki quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T14:00:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: gendl 2015-10-29T14:01:04Z nzambe joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:03:08Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:12:13Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:13:49Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:14:19Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:15:41Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:16:15Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:21:06Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T14:22:01Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:23:27Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:23:45Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:24:38Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:28:36Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:28:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:31:49Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-10-29T14:32:26Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:32:39Z hugoduncan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:32:59Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:33:53Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:33:58Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:34:15Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:34:56Z hugoduncan is now known as plato_14 2015-10-29T14:36:16Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:38:52Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T14:40:01Z N0viceLive-amd64 left #lisp 2015-10-29T14:40:39Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:41:37Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:43:30Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:44:39Z phoe_krk: this is really amusing and wonderful 2015-10-29T14:44:54Z phoe_krk: some parts of my program are running 2015-10-29T14:44:57Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:45:16Z phoe_krk: I end up editing another part of the program and see the changes being reflected in the working parts the moment I compile 2015-10-29T14:45:37Z phoe_krk: this is *so* different than C 2015-10-29T14:51:55Z tralala quit (Quit: out) 2015-10-29T14:52:03Z raphaelsss joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:52:10Z phadthai: Common Lisp is indeed very suited for interactive incremental development, very nice for rapid prototyping 2015-10-29T14:53:30Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:53:48Z phoe_krk: phadthai: and I have had no idea that operating on 4+ REPLs can be productive 2015-10-29T14:55:06Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T14:55:37Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:56:15Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:59:13Z myrkraverk: Is there a "known" good way to convert C++'s std::string to lisp with CFFI? I learned the hard way that I can't simply return s.c_str(); // where is is std::string, because the c_str() return value is only guaranteed until the ;. 2015-10-29T14:59:35Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-10-29T14:59:51Z myrkraverk: So if I return s.c_str(); all the strings will be empty on the lisp side. 2015-10-29T14:59:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: myrkraverk: strcpy it to a pointer you control? 2015-10-29T15:00:23Z myrkraverk: fiddlerwoaroof: I did that, but the simple method leaves me with a fixed size buffer. 2015-10-29T15:00:35Z myrkraverk: So I was wondering if there was a "known, good trick" for it. 2015-10-29T15:00:38Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:01:37Z loke_` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's been a while since I've used C++, but doesn't the string have a length method? 2015-10-29T15:01:59Z myrkraverk: Yes it does. 2015-10-29T15:02:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe I don't understand "fixed size buffer" correctly: you want to be able to grow the string? 2015-10-29T15:02:26Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T15:03:05Z myrkraverk: I don't think I need to grow the string - I guess I can just error out in case the buffer is too short; or whatever. But if I release the code, I guess it's better to grow the buffer. 2015-10-29T15:03:11Z myrkraverk: Or have it dynamic, somehow. 2015-10-29T15:03:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: because, if that's not a problem, then you'd just malloc the right mount based on length 2015-10-29T15:03:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/mount/amount/ 2015-10-29T15:03:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: right? 2015-10-29T15:03:37Z loke_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T15:04:05Z myrkraverk: Yeah, except then I have to document that behaviour and tell people to free it. Does CFFI free() strings returned from functions? 2015-10-29T15:04:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. malloc(sizeof(char)*string->length()); 2015-10-29T15:04:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: myrkraverk: I don't know. 2015-10-29T15:04:36Z myrkraverk: Exactly, the docs don't say. 2015-10-29T15:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does this help? http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/string/string/data/ 2015-10-29T15:05:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm 2015-10-29T15:06:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I don't know either C++ or CFFI to be more help 2015-10-29T15:06:10Z myrkraverk: CFFI has string+ptr type, which can be used to free the results. 2015-10-29T15:06:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/to be/enough to be/ 2015-10-29T15:06:23Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:10:36Z raphaelsss: Can't you convert your string to a lisp string (and free the original C one) before passing it to your users? 2015-10-29T15:10:59Z raphaelsss is now known as raphaelss 2015-10-29T15:11:23Z raphaelss: or do you you still need to reference the original c++ std::string? 2015-10-29T15:12:10Z dkcl quit (Quit: Back later.) 2015-10-29T15:13:49Z raphaelss: cffi has foreign-string-to-lisp 2015-10-29T15:13:58Z myrkraverk: The std::string comes from the library I'm binding, so I need to convert that to C string, and pass on to lisp. 2015-10-29T15:14:09Z myrkraverk: So the text is not coming from lisp. 2015-10-29T15:16:10Z raphaelss: I'd do a wrapper on the lisp side that makes a lisp string with foreign-string-to-lisp and returns that 2015-10-29T15:16:39Z newdan left #lisp 2015-10-29T15:16:40Z raphaelss: so that the user does not have to care that he is dealing with a c/c++ lib 2015-10-29T15:16:59Z myrkraverk: raphaelss: Just setting the return value to :string with CFFI is enough to get a lisp string. It's only the internal buffer for the intermediate C string that's giving me headache. 2015-10-29T15:17:46Z myrkraverk: Eventually, the user (namely myself) will not have to care that the date is coming from C or C++. 2015-10-29T15:17:51Z myrkraverk: *data 2015-10-29T15:18:14Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T15:18:20Z raphaelss: I didn't know/remember that - my main cffi usage has been for numerical purposes 2015-10-29T15:18:32Z myrkraverk: Ah. 2015-10-29T15:19:06Z raphaelss: And I thought that the trouble was the c string to lisp string conversion 2015-10-29T15:21:43Z phoe_krk just had his emacs explode. woops. 2015-10-29T15:21:45Z phf: myrkraverk: last time i did c++/lisp integration i wrote a shim library of extern "C" functions that would deal with symbol mangling., remove the c++ specific behaviors and do data conversions. so if your foo function returns a c++ string then you either wrap it in, char *c_foo or if you have too many of those, then you treat a return of foo as an opaque memory reference, and have two helper functions cpp_string_to_c_string and 2015-10-29T15:21:45Z phf: free_cpp_string 2015-10-29T15:22:45Z myrkraverk: phf: yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. Except when I get std::string, I'm doing the glue to C string immediately, in the C code. 2015-10-29T15:22:58Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T15:23:18Z myrkraverk: So I have as little glue needed on the lisp side as I can. 2015-10-29T15:24:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Couldn't your cffi code just copy in the C string and free the intermediate buffer immediately? 2015-10-29T15:24:57Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:25:07Z myrkraverk: fiddlerwoaroof: it could, or I guess it copies automatically, because I seem to have no trouble when I'm using a fixed buffer. 2015-10-29T15:25:20Z myrkraverk: I'm going to make the fixed buffer expand though. 2015-10-29T15:26:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why can't you just copy the return from c_str to a Lisp string immediately? Is there some glue code between the std::string and lisp? 2015-10-29T15:26:58Z myrkraverk: fiddlerwoaroof: if I return the pointer from c_str(), the lisp string is empty. 2015-10-29T15:27:09Z myrkraverk: if I strcpy() first, I get the string. 2015-10-29T15:27:33Z myrkraverk: The pointer from c_str() is only valid until the ; 2015-10-29T15:27:49Z myrkraverk: according to the standard, and obviously my compiler/environment. 2015-10-29T15:28:35Z raphaelss: if the std::string is destroyed when the function returns, so is the data pointed to by c_str() 2015-10-29T15:28:49Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:29:35Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T15:29:47Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:30:00Z phf: myrkraverk: right, the return of char * implies a strncpy, but if you don't want to copy, you can return std::string as a void* and then have a function char* cpp_get_c_str(void*), that caststo ((std::string)ptr)->c_str 2015-10-29T15:30:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:30:04Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:30:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T15:30:18Z otwieracz: Hey. 2015-10-29T15:30:35Z otwieracz: Is there some structure in lisp which will allow me to store, for example, history of 100 numbers. 2015-10-29T15:30:45Z otwieracz: While pushing 101 number will delete the first one. 2015-10-29T15:30:55Z otwieracz: kind of ring buffer? 2015-10-29T15:31:23Z raphaelss: phf, I shall note this solution down and use it when I'm on a similar situation 2015-10-29T15:31:44Z myrkraverk: phf: I think I'll rather do this on the C side, then my wrapper library is more general and may end up in more places. 2015-10-29T15:31:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-29T15:33:06Z Xach: otwieracz: a ring buffer sounds pretty applicable 2015-10-29T15:33:15Z Xach: otwieracz: I don't know of something baked in, though. 2015-10-29T15:34:12Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:35:12Z ajf-: I'm trying to make a recurring function but it runs forever. This is the function, the output, and the desired output: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157770. Any ideas ? 2015-10-29T15:36:54Z otwieracz: Hmm. I've got huge problem with my emacs/slime/ccl 2015-10-29T15:36:58Z phf: ajf-: you have a typo, "chain-kh" 2015-10-29T15:37:05Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T15:37:07Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:37:11Z otwieracz: Fairly often my REPL stops accepting input. 2015-10-29T15:37:12Z ajf-: phf ! 2015-10-29T15:37:17Z otwieracz: Eg. it freezes. 2015-10-29T15:37:18Z ajf-: thanks I hope that fixes it 2015-10-29T15:38:05Z ajf-: nope 2015-10-29T15:41:22Z myrkraverk: Well, in other news, I now have a functioning subset of Kytea, in Lisp. 2015-10-29T15:42:51Z Xach: ajf-: for what it's worth, that code is pretty hard to understand because of the formatting, and also because of the large amount of work it does. is it possible to break the work up into smaller functions that are easier to understand individually? 2015-10-29T15:43:03Z ajf-: Xach yes I should also do that 2015-10-29T15:43:11Z ajf-: also now I realised something 2015-10-29T15:43:11Z mordocai: ajf-: In most situations like yours, I recommend walking through the function step-by-step using a debugger. Usually you'll spot why your end condition is failing. Also what Xach said. 2015-10-29T15:43:24Z ajf-: found-khs is being set to '() on every function call 2015-10-29T15:43:31Z ajf-: so each time the function is called, it starts from zero 2015-10-29T15:43:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:43:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-29T15:43:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:44:00Z Yanez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:44:06Z ajf-: yeah I am not sure how to produce readable lisp yet 2015-10-29T15:44:07Z phf: ajf-: well, it looks like it's not that it runs forever, it's just doing a lot of work. 2015-10-29T15:44:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T15:44:41Z phf: after you fixed the typo anyway (presumably replacing chain-kh with chain-klangreihen) 2015-10-29T15:44:55Z myrkraverk: What are the prerequisites to get my Kytea bindings into Quicklisp? 2015-10-29T15:45:10Z myrkraverk: (a lot of code cleanup is needed, for one) 2015-10-29T15:46:06Z phf: ajf-: like "Current: ..." prints current trope symbol on each iteration, and you interrupt the code long before it gets to the end of trope-scheme-numbers i.e. 44ab 2015-10-29T15:48:06Z mordocai: myrkraverk: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html 2015-10-29T15:48:27Z ajf-: phf not on each iteration, only if it finds a suitable kh, and then it should recurse until it has N (the :amount keyword) klangreihens total. 2015-10-29T15:49:13Z ajf-: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157771#1 2015-10-29T15:49:15Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-10-29T15:49:18Z phf: oh oh 2015-10-29T15:49:52Z ajf-: as Xach says, I should probably make a function that "finds just one" 2015-10-29T15:49:58Z myrkraverk: mordocai: thank you. 2015-10-29T15:50:03Z ajf-: and then make a recursing function that finds N using that other function 2015-10-29T15:50:17Z papachan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T15:51:11Z ajf-: but yeah I think my problem may be that found-khs is being reset to zero on each run 2015-10-29T15:52:13Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T15:52:36Z ZabaQ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T15:53:05Z ajf-: although in the output, I can see there's a "big" 'KHS: ... ' format, and a "small" 'KHS: ... ' 2015-10-29T15:53:17Z ajf-: and both repeat 2015-10-29T15:54:09Z phf: yeah, i don't understand the code intent enough to provide any insight. but i'll nitpick that (setf found-khs (append found-khs (list kh))) can be replaced with (push (list kh) found-khs) and since that will generate found-khs in reverse order you do (return-from outer (nreverse found-khs)). it's a standard pattern for list generation and will speed things up 2015-10-29T15:55:02Z ajf-: thanks will change that 2015-10-29T15:56:26Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T15:59:58Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:00:59Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:08:04Z ramky_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T16:10:30Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T16:49:14Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T16:49:14Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-29T16:52:02Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T16:52:22Z phoe_krk: I have a list of instances of a single class. What is the simplest way to find a class that has a certain value set under one of their slots? 2015-10-29T16:52:34Z Wojciech_K joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:52:55Z phoe_krk: Let's say I have a list of instances of session class. They have a :name slot. I want to find a class that has "asdf" as their :name. 2015-10-29T16:53:13Z phoe_krk: I've been trying to do that with find, but I have no idea what to put as "item" there. 2015-10-29T16:53:25Z Xach: phoe_krk: (find name list-of-objects :test 'string= :key 'name) 2015-10-29T16:53:34Z Xach: assuming NAME is an accessor 2015-10-29T16:53:40Z Xach: otherwise, you can use a lambda with slot-value. 2015-10-29T16:53:54Z Jameser joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:54:14Z Xach: (find "asdf" list :test 'string= :key (lambda (object) (slot-value object 'name))) for example 2015-10-29T16:54:35Z phoe_krk: Xach: brilliant, the first one works. Thanks! 2015-10-29T16:56:11Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-29T16:56:58Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:57:36Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T16:58:26Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2015-10-29T16:58:33Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T16:58:36Z Colleen joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:01:26Z jsgrant_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:03:11Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:04:47Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:11:18Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:12:11Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-29T17:14:24Z mordocai: Anyone have recent experience with any libraries that'd help me get a basic game client up really quickly using freely available art (or no art, like nethack/dwarf fortress)? Right now i'll just need something that lets me hack on it quickly to get a prototype up. 2015-10-29T17:14:35Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:15:04Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:15:05Z mordocai: Needs to work on linux and be native (i.e. not something web based). Besides that I'm pretty open. 2015-10-29T17:15:06Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:15:22Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:16:01Z Shinmera: Well, "game" is a very unspecific term. You could make a game by just printing stuff to stdout. 2015-10-29T17:16:24Z resttime: mordocai: cl-libtcod perhaps? 2015-10-29T17:16:36Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:16:38Z resttime: Bindings to tcod for developing rouguelikes 2015-10-29T17:16:56Z eudoxia: i tried cl-libtcod, the examples are out of date, or something, idc 2015-10-29T17:17:03Z eudoxia: cl-ncurses works 2015-10-29T17:17:10Z eudoxia: i mean, 2015-10-29T17:17:12Z mordocai: So here's long term vision https://mordocai.net/blog/a_ramble_about_a_game_idea.html 2015-10-29T17:17:18Z eudoxia: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms 2015-10-29T17:17:20Z eudoxia: this thing 2015-10-29T17:17:40Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-29T17:17:43Z _cosmona` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:17:46Z mordocai: Right now I just want to get something where I can start fleshing out/trying some ideas. 2015-10-29T17:18:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:18:19Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:19:03Z Shinmera: For my Ludum Dare game I just used Qtools straight up. 2015-10-29T17:19:08Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:19:23Z Shinmera: github.com/Shinmera/ld33 2015-10-29T17:19:28Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:19:29Z Shinmera: ech. https://github.com/Shinmera/ld33 2015-10-29T17:20:45Z resttime: SDL2 / cl-liballegro / CLinch would probably be the other standard options 2015-10-29T17:20:46Z algae quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T17:22:33Z Shinmera: Qt is nnnot the best option for sound output though. 2015-10-29T17:22:40Z Shinmera: I have yet to explore options for that part. 2015-10-29T17:22:52Z mordocai: Sound is going to be waaaayyy down the road I imagine. 2015-10-29T17:23:07Z Shinmera: Bindings to gstreamer would be nice. 2015-10-29T17:23:15Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:24:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:25:22Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:25:40Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:26:27Z faalentijn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T17:27:14Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:29:06Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:30:11Z Shinmera: mordocai: I can wholeheartedly recommend participating in the Ludum Dare. It's a nice opportunity to just rush into something and try it out. 2015-10-29T17:32:34Z mordocai: Looks interesting. I think I had vaguely heard of it but hadn't really looked into it. 2015-10-29T17:33:46Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:33:57Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:34:03Z shookees quit (Quit: TATA AND FAREWELL) 2015-10-29T17:34:23Z resttime: More shameless advertisement for cl-liballegro is the all-in-one functionality 2015-10-29T17:35:20Z hitecnologys: mordocai: you might want to check out cl-tui as well: https://bitbucket.org/naryl/cl-tui 2015-10-29T17:35:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T17:35:55Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:36:03Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:36:19Z hitecnologys: mordocai: and probably development branch of a game of my as a real world example of usage: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/ISoL/tree/develop 2015-10-29T17:36:31Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:36:31Z _cosmona` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T17:37:10Z tkd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:37:36Z Zamuel joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:38:16Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:39:04Z lisse` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:39:26Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:39:28Z lisse` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:40:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: hitecnologys: hmm, maybe I should port by ring_reader (http://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/ring_reader) to Lisp 2015-10-29T17:41:08Z lisse` left #lisp 2015-10-29T17:41:17Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:42:01Z hitecnologys: fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, haven't actually encountered a problem thou would require such a solution. Shouldn't be too hard though. 2015-10-29T17:42:12Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:42:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: adb log 2015-10-29T17:42:36Z hitecnologys: Well, I don't develop for Andrioid. =P 2015-10-29T17:42:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Generally, if something has a ton of output and you don't want to buffer it all in memory 2015-10-29T17:42:47Z myrkraverk: Is there something like this, in C++, that I can use to refer to the currently constructing instance, in :initform, with CLOS? 2015-10-29T17:43:08Z hitecnologys: myrkraverk: you need INITIALIZE-INSTANCE for that. 2015-10-29T17:43:23Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:43:33Z hitecnologys: myrkraverk: like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance your-class-name) &rest initargs) (my-code instance)). 2015-10-29T17:43:46Z myrkraverk: Oh, ok. 2015-10-29T17:43:48Z mordocai: So currently looking at at least 7 viable modern solutions for a simple game client. Gotta love common lisp :) 2015-10-29T17:44:11Z hitecnologys: mordocai: or you can, of course, write your world DEFCLASS that could do all that for you… 2015-10-29T17:44:17Z hitecnologys: Err, myrkraverk ^ 2015-10-29T17:44:22Z Zamuel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T17:44:43Z myrkraverk: hitecnologys: I'd rather not, if I don't have to C: 2015-10-29T17:45:24Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:45:34Z leafybas_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:45:58Z hitecnologys: mordocai: well, what did you expect? We've got *all* the batteries. 2015-10-29T17:46:06Z runneypo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:46:29Z mordocai: hitecnologys: Totally what I expected, just so different from other languages where you typically have 2 or 3 options. 2015-10-29T17:46:54Z gendl: ZabaQ: glime is an extension of slime-autodoc for Gendl define-object syntax. 2015-10-29T17:47:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: In lisp, you have like 20 options but like 3 of them have bin maintained in the last year :) 2015-10-29T17:47:31Z hitecnologys: And you're lucky if it's this low. 2015-10-29T17:47:53Z hitecnologys: I mean if it's as low as 3. 2015-10-29T17:47:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: And only one of them is half-documented 2015-10-29T17:48:01Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T17:48:10Z resttime: Shinmera: Oh yeah, LineM the second drawing application written with Common Lisp in the whole wide world (I think) is now in good condition: https://github.com/resttime/linem 2015-10-29T17:48:51Z Shinmera: resttime: I'm working hard to continue Parasol 2015-10-29T17:48:53Z warweasle: mordocai: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, clinch is about to change a lot. 2015-10-29T17:49:07Z Shinmera: Currently I'm busy yak-shaving by writing qtools-ui. 2015-10-29T17:49:36Z mordocai: warweasle: I think it has been "about to change alot" for awhile right? 2015-10-29T17:49:41Z megido quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:49:48Z mordocai: I remember seeing that note in the readme last time I looked at it at least 2015-10-29T17:49:52Z Shinmera: resttime: Still, really neat to hear that you had a good time using Qtools. 2015-10-29T17:49:55Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:50:29Z warweasle: mordocai: Yes. It's not ready for primetime, that's for certain. 2015-10-29T17:50:36Z rpg: Is there a library that provides good directory listing for CL? I.e., that has decent wildcard patterns? 2015-10-29T17:50:50Z plato_14 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T17:50:59Z Shinmera: Your implementation should be able to do it with DIRECTORY. Hopefully. 2015-10-29T17:51:20Z warweasle is ripping out the 2D parts so it can be used separately. 2015-10-29T17:51:35Z mordocai: warweasle: Oooh nice, that sounds great for my use case. Maybe i'll be a "beta tester" 2015-10-29T17:51:43Z mordocai: warweasle: I only want 2d to start with 2015-10-29T17:51:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I really like qtools, plump and query :) 2015-10-29T17:52:02Z warweasle: mordocai: Well, it would be pango/cairo based. But it's plenty fast. 2015-10-29T17:52:03Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Glad to hear! 2015-10-29T17:52:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, and Ubiquitous 2015-10-29T17:52:25Z rpg: Shinmera: I don't think it can do things like match digits, etc. 2015-10-29T17:53:08Z hitecnologys: fiddlerwoaroof: who doesn't? Shinmera saved my eh… back too many times. 2015-10-29T17:53:14Z Shinmera: rpg: Ah, indeed it cannot. I don't know of anything that exists right now I'm afraid. Writing a library like that is on my todo. 2015-10-29T17:53:39Z Shinmera: But I might very well have overlooked something. 2015-10-29T17:53:58Z rpg: Shinmera: Yes, Fare would like to see CL become a plausible scripting language, and a decent directory iterator will be critical for that.... 2015-10-29T17:54:31Z rpg: Taking the output of directory, mapping namestring over it, and then pushing the result through a regexp match. Ugh. 2015-10-29T17:55:08Z Shinmera: Right. I remember that he wrote https://github.com/fare/cl-scripting but that doesn't deal with pathnames from what I can tell 2015-10-29T17:55:16Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-29T17:55:45Z mordocai: Btw, if anyone can contribute content to http://articulate-lisp.com that'd be great. I've been helping out a bit but my knowledge is limited. I think the purpose of the site is a valid need. Better information about the different implementations + some fleshed out project tutorials is what it most needs I think. 2015-10-29T17:57:41Z native_killer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T17:57:50Z Shinmera has never seen that site before 2015-10-29T17:58:32Z Shinmera: Blogging about it and getting said blog onto plent-lisp might get some attention. 2015-10-29T17:58:37Z Shinmera: *planet-lisp 2015-10-29T17:59:05Z eudoxia: it's on the r/lisp sidebar kek 2015-10-29T17:59:16Z eudoxia: ive only looked at it superficially 2015-10-29T17:59:21Z hitecnologys: There's already cliki.net, why another site? 2015-10-29T17:59:32Z mordocai: Yeah, I found it via /r/lisp. Noobies don't like cliki.net 2015-10-29T17:59:54Z mordocai: Really not sure why 2015-10-29T18:00:06Z Xach: I also don't like cliki.net. 2015-10-29T18:00:23Z Xach: I don't like it because it's ugly and chaotic. 2015-10-29T18:00:25Z hitecnologys: Well, me neither, but doesn't that mean it needs improvements? 2015-10-29T18:00:54Z Xach: I would like it more if it was not ugly and not chaotic. 2015-10-29T18:01:05Z Shinmera: Same. 2015-10-29T18:02:23Z resttime: "I'll just write my own" <- A frequent goto solution when it comes to lisp 2015-10-29T18:02:36Z zwdr: lisp makes it easy though! 2015-10-29T18:02:45Z Xach: I like some parts of it. The ansi corrections page is good. But if someone were to make that today, I'd suggest a google doc or something like that. 2015-10-29T18:03:03Z eudoxia: yes, cliki is indeed horrible 2015-10-29T18:03:30Z hitecnologys: There isn't an alternative at the moment. 2015-10-29T18:03:51Z hitecnologys: Maybe let's make something instead of saying how horrible it is? 2015-10-29T18:03:52Z mordocai: I think the main problem is that AFAIK I can't make a pull request to fundementally change cliki. I already did that once with articulate-lisp 2015-10-29T18:03:55Z Xach: The alternative is to not use it and not look at it. 2015-10-29T18:03:57Z rpg: resttime, zwdr: that's how we end up with so many 70% solutions. 2015-10-29T18:04:07Z zwdr: yea true 2015-10-29T18:04:14Z hitecnologys: Xach: but we still need some place where we can aggregate stuff. 2015-10-29T18:04:33Z resttime: Thank goodness quicklisp exists. 2015-10-29T18:04:33Z eudoxia feels bad for abandoning https://github.com/eudoxia0/lisp-site 2015-10-29T18:04:34Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T18:04:48Z Xach: hitecnologys: That would be great. It's too bad there's nothing like that already. 2015-10-29T18:04:57Z hitecnologys: resttime: quicklisp doesn't have proper categories and neither does quickdoc. 2015-10-29T18:05:25Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T18:05:57Z hitecnologys: resttime: and don't tell me that I don't need them because I usually end up in situations where I'm not sure what to look for so I open cliki and look at the list of software on appropriate page and compare them, then decide. 2015-10-29T18:06:14Z mordocai asks #lisp 2015-10-29T18:06:22Z mordocai: Cliki seems often out of date 2015-10-29T18:06:38Z Shinmera: You can change the seems to is. 2015-10-29T18:06:59Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:07:06Z hitecnologys: Xach: I think I've become too spoiled. Now I can't tell whether you were sarcastic or not… =P 2015-10-29T18:07:53Z Xach: hitecnologys: I'm not being sarcastic. I don't like cliki.net and I don't think it's worth using for any current problem. 2015-10-29T18:08:12Z Xach: Other people can work on it if they like. I'm not going to do it. 2015-10-29T18:08:48Z mordocai: So like, is something like articulate-lisp (curated by pull request/one maintainer) what we need? Or do we need a better wiki? 2015-10-29T18:09:18Z Xach: I like the idea of something curated. Execution can always be a stumbling block. 2015-10-29T18:09:43Z hitecnologys: I'm not so sure that wiki is what we need. 2015-10-29T18:10:13Z eudoxia: i think a website like scala-lang.org (well designed, advertises language's strengths) plus a wiki is what's needed 2015-10-29T18:10:24Z hitecnologys: So I'd vote for something being centrally controlled by a small publicly elected committee. 2015-10-29T18:10:24Z Shinmera: I've been thinking about something like a wiki but using a versioning system as a backend. 2015-10-29T18:10:44Z Xach: I think "publicly elected committee" is a kiss of death. 2015-10-29T18:10:59Z hitecnologys: Xach: but it has hope. 2015-10-29T18:11:05Z eudoxia: as in, waiting for consensus to form before acting? 2015-10-29T18:11:07Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Committees are slow and you'll always get a good chunk of people who'll immediately shoot it down because they don't like the electives. 2015-10-29T18:11:10Z zwdr: Mmmh, I wrote a small wiki that simply uses the FS 2015-10-29T18:11:18Z zwdr: so if you add the folder to git its versioned 2015-10-29T18:11:24Z zwdr: I believe thats a good approach 2015-10-29T18:11:32Z zwdr: instead of reinventing versioning 2015-10-29T18:11:44Z hitecnologys: But uncontrolled wikis are a good way to end up in the garbage dump. We need some group of people who would manage it anyway. 2015-10-29T18:11:44Z eudoxia: show of hands, how many people here have their own lisp-backed personal wiki :) 2015-10-29T18:11:52Z Shinmera: The versinoning system thing would be neato because you could have branches for people's changes and thus have only one public version that might be checked by some. 2015-10-29T18:11:59Z Shinmera: *versioning 2015-10-29T18:12:00Z zwdr: eeh--it's scheme eudoxia :D 2015-10-29T18:12:12Z mordocai: eudoxia: Bunch of org files count? 2015-10-29T18:12:17Z eudoxia: mordocai: no 2015-10-29T18:12:21Z mordocai: Then nope 2015-10-29T18:12:58Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: I had a project like that once but I shut it down due to lack of time to work on it. 2015-10-29T18:15:37Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:15:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:16:22Z runneypo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T18:16:25Z mordocai: I wonder how arch wiki does it. Nearly always top notch information. 2015-10-29T18:17:09Z plato_14 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:17:24Z zwdr: same with the gentoo wiki 2015-10-29T18:17:58Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-29T18:19:23Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T18:19:51Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T18:20:17Z Xach: at a guess, lots and lots and lots of people involved. 2015-10-29T18:20:25Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T18:20:51Z Xach: low-ish barrier to entry, a path to progressing in levels of contributions, mostly unified user community, etc 2015-10-29T18:21:25Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:21:39Z Xach: will wright gave a nice talk about the pyramid of contributions to The Sims. there were millions of users (the base of the pyramid), and some fraction of those decided they wanted to customize the game a little, and some fraction of that fraction decided they wanted to do more, and so on. 2015-10-29T18:21:48Z Xach: that was one aspect of a really interesting talk about many topics 2015-10-29T18:22:09Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:22:24Z Xach: common lisp has many different groups with their own, completely valid, agendas, priorities, etc. none of which is particularly large in the absolute sense. 2015-10-29T18:22:43Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:23:33Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-29T18:23:50Z Xach: with common lisp, any energetic weirdo can, on their own, do a great deal of good. or harm. 2015-10-29T18:24:03Z Xach: it's better if you have a large pool of potential weirdos 2015-10-29T18:24:20Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:24:26Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T18:24:28Z Xach: and also helps if they tend to be more good than harmful, on average 2015-10-29T18:25:24Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:25:26Z eazar001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T18:25:49Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:26:04Z eudoxia: can confirm, am spooky energetic weirdo 2015-10-29T18:26:17Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:26:47Z mordocai: Yeah, I feel like despite the problems with it our best bet is a linux-style group (one dictator for life, with subordinates nomiated by him/her) and a curated site. 2015-10-29T18:26:53Z mordocai: nominated* 2015-10-29T18:27:14Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:27:25Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:27:43Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-29T18:28:58Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:33:22Z plato_14 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T18:38:34Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T18:41:41Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:42:06Z ggole quit 2015-10-29T18:42:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:45:57Z keen___________ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:47:48Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T18:48:36Z keen__________ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T18:52:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could allow multiple versions of the same page and allow voting to determine which gets shown by default/ 2015-10-29T18:52:51Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:53:49Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-29T18:56:56Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T18:58:32Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-29T18:59:01Z phoe_krk: I just wrote a tiny Lisp subset parser 2015-10-29T18:59:10Z phoe_krk: like, a function that returns strings 2015-10-29T18:59:32Z phoe_krk: when I call it explicitly from the REPL, it behaves differently than when it is called from a worker thread 2015-10-29T18:59:38Z phoe_krk: despite having the same arguments. 2015-10-29T18:59:43Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:02:00Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Also, #lispgames should have a delegate. 2015-10-29T19:12:15Z shka: phoe_krk: show it 2015-10-29T19:13:16Z mordocai: I forgot about #lispgames, joining the channel! 2015-10-29T19:15:29Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:17:27Z rpg: phoe_krk: "behaves differently"? 2015-10-29T19:17:48Z phoe_krk: rpg: a cond takes a different branch depending on where the function is run 2015-10-29T19:17:50Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:17:55Z mobius-eng joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:18:10Z rpg: phoe_krk: obvious likely candidate is any use of special variables. 2015-10-29T19:18:38Z rpg: Do you have a global table of symbols you are trying to pull out of the input? 2015-10-29T19:18:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:19:18Z pjb: loke: An example in C: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/lisp/ast.c 2015-10-29T19:19:22Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:19:26Z phoe_krk: rpg: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157783 2015-10-29T19:19:39Z phoe_krk: rpg: global table of symbols? no, not at all 2015-10-29T19:20:08Z phoe_krk: when ran explicitly out of a REPL by (parse-input "(connect)"), the correct branch is taken 2015-10-29T19:20:22Z rpg: phoe_krk: When you use READ you are using *PACKAGE* 2015-10-29T19:20:32Z phoe_krk: *PACKAGE*? 2015-10-29T19:20:50Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:22:00Z rpg: phoe_krk: packages are lisp namespaces. In the thread you may be working in a different package. 2015-10-29T19:22:21Z rpg: Also, AFAICT your function does not return anything: it does something side-effecty with "OUTPUSH" 2015-10-29T19:22:30Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157783#1 2015-10-29T19:22:44Z phoe_krk: yes, it does something side-effecty, but it outpushes a wrong branch 2015-10-29T19:22:51Z phoe_krk: outpush is just a way of outputting data to the user 2015-10-29T19:23:10Z rpg: phoe_krk: I feel like you are trying to write a Java or C function in CL instead of a lisp function. 2015-10-29T19:23:20Z rpg: Don't "outpush" -- return. 2015-10-29T19:24:37Z phoe_krk: rpg: by outpushing, I append to a list that is then processed by a reader function. 2015-10-29T19:24:46Z phoe_krk: rpg: but that's not the axis of my problem. 2015-10-29T19:24:50Z rpg: phoe_krk: don't do that. 2015-10-29T19:24:55Z phoe_krk: rpg: ;_; 2015-10-29T19:25:08Z wailord quit (Quit: bye - znc) 2015-10-29T19:25:10Z rpg: phoe_krk: Write a function that takes the string and returns the thing that you would "outpush". 2015-10-29T19:25:24Z rpg: Get that right, *then* you can figure out how to build your list. 2015-10-29T19:25:45Z phoe_krk: Jesus, rewriting my code structure for the fifth time in a row 2015-10-29T19:25:52Z rpg: Don't try to mingle a function and a side-effecting procedure into one thing. Make bite size pieces. 2015-10-29T19:26:40Z rpg: Also, why are you using strings instead of s-expressions? 2015-10-29T19:26:45Z phoe_krk: rpg: the thing is, parse-input is a function that does a *lot* of side-effects, say, creating new class instances, modifying fields, creating sockets etc etc 2015-10-29T19:26:57Z rpg: This is written in lisp, but it is deeply un-idiomatic lisp. 2015-10-29T19:26:58Z phoe_krk: at least, I want it to do that 2015-10-29T19:27:22Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:27:28Z rpg: It doesn't have the decomposition into small functions, the functional nature, or the use of lisp-style data structures. 2015-10-29T19:27:32Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-29T19:27:42Z phoe_krk: Okay. 2015-10-29T19:27:46Z rpg: It's just Java translated to Lisp, and that's always going to get you in a bad place. 2015-10-29T19:27:50Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:28:07Z jdtest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T19:28:08Z rpg: Common Lisp is a great language, but it's not a great Java. 2015-10-29T19:29:13Z phoe_krk: I want a program that accepts sexprs as input and gives sexprs as output. 2015-10-29T19:29:34Z plato_14 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:30:01Z phoe_krk: And, depending on the sexprs given by the user, it does various things as side-effects. 2015-10-29T19:30:51Z phoe_krk: Like opening a socket, connecting to servers, setting values in class instance slots. 2015-10-29T19:31:46Z mood: phoe_krk: So, effectively, you want a Lisp implementation? 2015-10-29T19:32:06Z phoe_krk: mood: not really. Even if, I think I already have one. 2015-10-29T19:32:31Z mood: Depending on the sexprs you give your Lisp implementation, it can do things like opening a socket, connecting to servers, setting values in class instance slots 2015-10-29T19:32:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:32:52Z phoe_krk: Well, that's true. 2015-10-29T19:32:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T19:32:58Z phoe_krk: I want this to serve as a backend to another program. 2015-10-29T19:32:59Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T19:33:00Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T19:33:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:33:35Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:33:35Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:34:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:34:09Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T19:34:10Z plato_14 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:34:13Z reb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T19:34:13Z phoe_krk: Should I just set a whole bunch of functions and expose the REPL to the frontend? 2015-10-29T19:35:05Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:36:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I convert windows line endings (from MSSQL) to unix ones? 2015-10-29T19:37:37Z me_lisper joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:37:46Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:37:47Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:37:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm 2015-10-29T19:37:59Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: the most portable way is to just read it in as bytes rather than characters 2015-10-29T19:38:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can't really do that, jasom 2015-10-29T19:38:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless I misunderstand what your saying. 2015-10-29T19:38:38Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-29T19:38:46Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: many implementations let you set the line ending as part of the input/output encoding so you get a #\Newline when a #\Return #\Newline is encountered on the stream 2015-10-29T19:39:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not from a file, but embedded in a string from a db column 2015-10-29T19:39:21Z Shinmera: (remove #\Return string) 2015-10-29T19:40:09Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: go through the string and replace CR, LF pairs with LF. 2015-10-29T19:40:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, Shinmera I just thought of that :) 2015-10-29T19:40:30Z ryankarason quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:40:33Z Shinmera: Not the best solution though. 2015-10-29T19:40:43Z Shinmera: Go with what Xach said if you want to do it right. 2015-10-29T19:40:49Z phoe_krk shrugs, goes back to writing his "Java in CL". 2015-10-29T19:40:53Z jasom: cl-ppcre can probably do it easily 2015-10-29T19:41:22Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: sometimes you can get by without any conversion, but it depends on the situation. 2015-10-29T19:41:41Z Xach: kind of like when you need to know the bits of an integer. you don't always have to convert, you can just look at parts of it and ignore the rest. 2015-10-29T19:41:45Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk, using CL for scripting and having it to lots of side effects is fine. but having your "parsing" function do them strikes me as pretty friggin weird. 2015-10-29T19:41:57Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:42:25Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: what is a better way to do that? 2015-10-29T19:42:56Z me_lisper: hi All! is possible to avoid floating-point-exceptions in CL? 2015-10-29T19:42:59Z jasom: phoe_krk: I think just exposing the REPL to the user is the right thing to do 2015-10-29T19:43:00Z Bicyclidine: you know how repl stands for read eval print loop, right? because the basic interaction with lisps amounts to (loop (print (eval (read)))) 2015-10-29T19:43:03Z Bicyclidine: split those up, at least 2015-10-29T19:43:18Z jasom: me_lisper: sure, don't use floating point :) 2015-10-29T19:43:19Z Bicyclidine: me_lisper: avoid in what sense? 2015-10-29T19:45:22Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:45:30Z me_lisper_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:45:32Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T19:45:42Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:45:50Z phoe_krk: jasom: there's a problem, I want to separate the output from the input, so they don't get mixed together. 2015-10-29T19:46:18Z jasom: phoe_krk: I don't see the problem 2015-10-29T19:46:18Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:46:30Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i don't understand what you mean. 2015-10-29T19:46:44Z phoe_krk: jasom: I want to be able to input things in one REPL and see the program output appear in the other. 2015-10-29T19:46:56Z me_lisper_: I mean... even with ratios I can't avoid floats from, say, 'expt' calls 2015-10-29T19:47:15Z me_lisper quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:47:21Z Bicyclidine: me_lisper_: well, generally speaking expt of a rational isn't necessarily a rational 2015-10-29T19:47:41Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: so have the "read" function take input from one repl and have hte "print" function put it in the other? 2015-10-29T19:47:43Z phoe_krk: jasom: right now, I achieve that through two lists, *user-input* and *user-output*, and two functions that I run, (console-input) and (console-output) that respectively populate the first list with my input and print the contents of the second onto the screen. 2015-10-29T19:48:02Z Wojciech_K quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T19:48:18Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: how should I do that? 2015-10-29T19:48:19Z me_lisper_: Bicyclidine: and for that reason I got floating-overflow-errors even using wu-decimal 2015-10-29T19:48:29Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-29T19:48:47Z jasom: me_lisper_: you need to bound the ranges of your values or avoid expt 2015-10-29T19:49:10Z jasom: me_lisper_: or just don't use non-integral exponents (that should keep everything rational on sbcl) 2015-10-29T19:49:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:49:35Z Bicyclidine: expt on a rational with integer power gives you a rational 2015-10-29T19:49:39Z Bicyclidine: says the standard 2015-10-29T19:50:04Z phoe_krk: let's assume I have two REPLs. I want to be able to input things on REPL1 and see the output on REPL2. How do I do that? 2015-10-29T19:50:13Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: i mean, i don't know your whole architecture, but i'm not sure how to explain it in more detail. 2015-10-29T19:50:19Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:50:19Z jasom: Bicyclidine: oh, it is mandated by the standard (I was just looking that up) 2015-10-29T19:50:22Z pjb: phoe_krk: (print 'output *repl1*) 2015-10-29T19:50:26Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: Emacs/Slime/SBCL 2015-10-29T19:50:41Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: i mean, i'm literally just thinking (loop (my-print (my-eval (my-read)))), where my-read reads from repl1 and my-print prints to repl2. 2015-10-29T19:50:41Z jasom: me_lisper_: you can't take a square-root of arbitrary rationals and get a rational... that's math 2015-10-29T19:50:50Z pjb: phoe_krk: sorry, (print 'output *repl2*) 2015-10-29T19:51:40Z jasom: me_lisper_: if you need an approximation, then you need to use something other than expt. 2015-10-29T19:51:43Z phoe_krk: pjb: okay. though, how do I find the streams responsible for each repl? 2015-10-29T19:51:47Z me_lisper_: jasom, Bicyclidine: no, i need get cubics-root, so I need non-integers exponents 2015-10-29T19:51:48Z me_lisper_: (expt x 1/3) 2015-10-29T19:51:57Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: if this is part of something else, you'd have your main loop include (when (poll repl1) (my-print (my-eval (my-read repl1)) repl2)) 2015-10-29T19:52:08Z Bicyclidine: me_lisper_: so i mean, you're going to get floats, because those are irrational numbers. 2015-10-29T19:52:09Z jasom: me_lisper_: the result of that is not rational for most rational values of x 2015-10-29T19:52:12Z pjb: phoe_krk: repl1> (defparameter *repl1* *terminal-io*) repl2> (defparameter *repl2* *terminal-io*) 2015-10-29T19:52:40Z Bicyclidine: though taking third roots probably won't get you overflows most of the time? i don't understand what you're doing. 2015-10-29T19:52:41Z me_lisper_: or more generally (expt x 1/(1+ (*2 n ) )) 2015-10-29T19:52:52Z me_lisper_: jasom:, Bicyclidine : i know :( 2015-10-29T19:53:08Z phoe_krk: pjb: now, that's nice. thanks. 2015-10-29T19:53:12Z Bicyclidine: so, like, what, are you taking the 317th root of 1/10 and getting an overflow? 2015-10-29T19:53:16Z pjb: me_lisper_: this is not valid lisp. 2015-10-29T19:53:20Z me_lisper_: Bicyclidine: programming a plane transformation 2015-10-29T19:53:33Z Bicyclidine: i mean, what numbers are involved here 2015-10-29T19:53:37Z jasom: me_lisper_: you can use computable reals for arbitrary precision irrational arithmetic, but it's slow 2015-10-29T19:53:51Z me_lisper_: pjb: sorry! i typed something wrong ;) 2015-10-29T19:54:00Z Bicyclidine: ok , that was a stupid example, the 317th root of 1/10 is of course close to 1. 2015-10-29T19:54:02Z jasom: me_lisper_: alternatively you can write a cube-root approximation with just rational arithmetic 2015-10-29T19:54:04Z resttime: me_lisper_: (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:overflow) (RUNNING-THING)) 2015-10-29T19:54:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:54:53Z me_lisper_: jasom: how? 2015-10-29T19:55:12Z me_lisper_: resttime: I'm using CCL 2015-10-29T19:55:22Z jasom: me_lisper_: If I had to write one right now, I'd use newton's method, since it's simple 2015-10-29T19:55:32Z jasom: there are better approximations though 2015-10-29T19:55:34Z Bicyclidine: (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:overflow) (expt 2d0 most-positive-fixnum)) -> #.SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY, probably not what you had in mind 2015-10-29T19:55:39Z me_lisper_: jasom: oh! I see! 2015-10-29T19:56:18Z me_lisper_: Bicyclidine: thanks! but I want something CL-pure :) 2015-10-29T19:56:39Z Bicyclidine: i wasn't recommending it 2015-10-29T19:56:39Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T19:57:22Z jasom: me_lisper_: there is also computable-reals in quicklisp, but be warned, it's not very fast 2015-10-29T19:57:32Z Bicyclidine: but i really don't get your problem, triggering overflows with roots doesn't make much sense to me 2015-10-29T19:58:03Z me_lisper_: thanks jsom, I will see... 2015-10-29T19:58:22Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:58:26Z Bicyclidine: (expt 7d0 (/ most-positive-fixnum)) => 1d0, thanks to rounding error 2015-10-29T19:58:28Z jasom: Bicyclidine: if your rational is greater than can be represented as a float you overflow on the rational to float conversion 2015-10-29T19:58:38Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-29T19:58:45Z warweasle: I'm making a with-macro inside a package, I'm trying to use a known variable *object* so the user can just type *object* and use it. But I keep getting package-name::*object* instead. Is there a way around this? 2015-10-29T19:59:15Z jasom: Bicyclidine: e.g. (expt (expt (rationalize 1d157) 2) 1/2) 2015-10-29T19:59:18Z Bicyclidine: jasom: oh, for the argument to start with... guess that makes sense 2015-10-29T19:59:19Z Bicyclidine: right 2015-10-29T19:59:29Z resttime: CCL also has it's own way of masking http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.11.html 2015-10-29T20:00:23Z me_lisper_: looking now resttime! 2015-10-29T20:00:41Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:01:11Z xificurC quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-29T20:01:23Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:01:31Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:01:37Z earl-ducaine: clhs question: I've always freely used :initial-element nil when creating arrays using make-array for instance: 2015-10-29T20:01:39Z earl-ducaine: (make-array 5 :element-type 'unsigned-byte :initial-element nil) 2015-10-29T20:01:46Z earl-ducaine: But the clhs seems not to allow that, namely: 2015-10-29T20:01:52Z earl-ducaine: "If initial-element is supplied, it must be of the type given by element-type." 2015-10-29T20:01:57Z earl-ducaine: Is the above non-partable, or (more likely) am I missing something. 2015-10-29T20:02:34Z Shinmera: Your element type should be '(or null unsigned-byte) but in that case you probably aren't going to get any benefits from supplying it, so you might as well leave it T. 2015-10-29T20:02:42Z me_lisper_: thanks a lot for your answers, I will tried your suggestions now! 2015-10-29T20:02:53Z me_lisper_ quit 2015-10-29T20:03:29Z Bicyclidine: earl-ducaine: and you actually read the initial elements, like to determine nothing's been stored there? yeah, that's technically wrong 2015-10-29T20:04:04Z Shinmera: earl-ducaine: The relevant part though is probably "element-type indicates the type of the elements intended to be stored in the new-array. The new-array can actually store any objects of the type which results from upgrading element-type; see Section 15.1.2.1 (Array Upgrading)." 2015-10-29T20:05:17Z NeverDie_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-29T20:05:23Z Bicyclidine: example code warns on sbcl (but doesn't err, because (u-a-e-t 'unsigned-byte) => T) 2015-10-29T20:05:29Z Shinmera: Yep. 2015-10-29T20:05:51Z Bicyclidine: now, if you do '(unsigned-byte 8), shit breaks 2015-10-29T20:06:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:06:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:06:41Z dtm` joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:08:18Z phf: ooh 2015-10-29T20:08:19Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:08:30Z earl-ducaine: Shinmera: Ah ok. basically if I want the efficiency of it being a chunk of memory of 'unsigned-byte type (or what ever the efficient underlying implementation is)(then initial-element better be of of that type. That makes sense. putting nil as an initial element is hacky... but I use it from time to time as a quick and dirty form of bounds checking. 2015-10-29T20:09:02Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:09:07Z Shinmera: earl-ducaine: Also as 15.1.2.1 says, use UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE to see if there's even any point to trying to constrain it. 2015-10-29T20:09:26Z Shinmera: If efficiency is a problem you might have to do a bunch of implementation specific stuff to get the most out of it. 2015-10-29T20:09:58Z Shinmera: As shown above, unsigned-byte by itself is also not good enough, it'll upgrade to T since it doesn't know how big it is. 2015-10-29T20:10:01Z phf: earl-ducaine: is there reason you're using unsigned-byte as opposed to (unsigned-byte 8)? 2015-10-29T20:10:22Z Shinmera: phf: Probably the confusion that "byte" in CL doesn't mean "byte" as in everywhere else. 2015-10-29T20:10:29Z Shinmera: *almost everywhere else 2015-10-29T20:10:40Z Bicyclidine: yeah, an unsigned-byte isn't going to be very efficient, since that includes all nonnegative integers 2015-10-29T20:10:48Z jasom: unsigned-byte is basically (integer 0) right? 2015-10-29T20:11:06Z Shinmera: Yes 2015-10-29T20:11:24Z Shinmera: clhs unsigned-byte 2015-10-29T20:11:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm 2015-10-29T20:11:27Z Shinmera: "The type unsigned-byte or the type (unsigned-byte *) is the same as the type (integer 0 *)" 2015-10-29T20:11:33Z wuuuuuut joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:12:39Z phf: Shinmera: yeah i figured that was a mistake, but i checked to see if maybe i'm missing something 2015-10-29T20:12:57Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-29T20:13:48Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T20:15:42Z mobius-eng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:17:47Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T20:18:40Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:18:46Z earl-ducaine: phf: Actually it was just a spec question, happened to be reading that section and realized didn't fully understand it. But, yeah, actually the the specific code I was writing was suing unsigned-byte and it should have been (unsigned-byte 8) 2015-10-29T20:18:57Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T20:19:27Z Shinmera: Please don't sue the type system. 2015-10-29T20:20:03Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T20:21:19Z Bicyclidine: well, one slightly ugly thing you could do is use element-type (unsigned-byte 9), and reserve 9'b100000000 as your "unbound" initial element. you'd still get some storage improvement that way, most likely 2015-10-29T20:25:43Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:27:25Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:27:39Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T20:29:56Z plato_14 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:31:46Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:33:51Z earl-ducaine: Bicyclidine: that's a good idea. Ordinarily, I don't write lisp code that requires me to think about performance parameters (except how quickly I can knock it out) but in this case I'm working with huge arrays that I'd like to keep entirely in memory, so the difference between byte and int is significant. 2015-10-29T20:34:31Z plato_14 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:34:46Z Bicyclidine: u-a-e-t of ub9 is ub15 on my system. some odd bitwidths in the ets, as i recall 2015-10-29T20:34:47Z Shinmera: Integer isn't even an int. 2015-10-29T20:35:03Z Bicyclidine: yeah, integer is unbounded. bignums. not great for memory. 2015-10-29T20:35:37Z cagmz: does anyone have any advice for detecting when scope begins and ends in lisp-y languages? my grammar is s_expr ::= ( ( let let_list ) s_expr ) ... sample is ((let (abc 1)) (sub ((let (abc 2) (de 3)) (add abc de)) abc)) 2015-10-29T20:35:39Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-29T20:36:00Z Bicyclidine: that is a weird grammer. 2015-10-29T20:36:03Z Bicyclidine: grammar. 2015-10-29T20:36:23Z Bicyclidine: Usually you'd have (let ((abc 1)) (sub (let ((abc 2) (de 3)) (add abc de)) abc)). 2015-10-29T20:36:31Z Bicyclidine: i.e., the lexical scope is just the body of the let. 2015-10-29T20:37:15Z Bicyclidine: s_expr ::= (LET let_list sexpr*) i guess. 2015-10-29T20:38:42Z benaiah joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:39:51Z OrangeShark quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:40:38Z duggiefresh quit 2015-10-29T20:46:15Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-29T20:48:21Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:48:33Z cagmz: True. the issue im having is in bison, the let_list atomic grammar definitions are evaluated first. so by default I create a new scope. However, for all subsequent LET's, I'm also creating new scopes, even if they some symbols should belong in the same scope 2015-10-29T20:48:37Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-29T20:49:05Z cagmz: basically, the grammar is being evaluated bottom up and I'm having trouble differentiating when scope begins/ends 2015-10-29T20:49:39Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure i understand your problem. should the parser even be aware of scoping? 2015-10-29T20:49:44Z cagmz: here's a really crappy run of the snippet I posted: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/2e44873facf3dd699b78 2015-10-29T20:50:04Z cagmz: yeah, the parser should be aware because I'm trying to build a symbol table 2015-10-29T20:50:44Z cagmz: prof suggests using an association list but I feel like a stack would work better since each element in the stack could be a whole scope ( a linked list of symbols) 2015-10-29T20:50:53Z Bicyclidine: if it's just a table shouldn't that just be in the symbol's rule? 2015-10-29T20:51:23Z Bicyclidine: well, i mean, the way lisp works is you have (LET binding* sexpr*), and the bindings are in scope in those sexprs and not outside. find some way to implement that, i guess. 2015-10-29T20:53:23Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:53:24Z pjb: phoe_krk: a better question you should have been asking, is whether there was a init hook on the repl creation in the various environments. 2015-10-29T20:54:12Z pjb: phoe_krk: the rc files are good when you have only one repl in the terminal, but when slime creates repl, you want a function to be run at in each repl. Same when, eg. Clozure CL creates a new Listener window (and similar in other IDE). 2015-10-29T20:54:51Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:55:08Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:55:18Z phoe_krk: pjb: I just realized that I actually tried to write a Lisp inside a Lisp 2015-10-29T20:55:23Z phoe_krk: which seems redundant 2015-10-29T20:55:41Z phoe_krk: but I had no idea I could simply omit that part and have things work. 2015-10-29T20:56:06Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T20:57:12Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:57:13Z pjb: Sometimes you want to restrict the command language to some specific features. Lisp would allows the commanding system to control the whole process and user files. 2015-10-29T20:57:15Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:57:51Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:58:03Z pjb: phoe_krk: there's slime-inferior-process-start-hook that could be used, from slime. 2015-10-29T20:58:24Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-29T20:59:22Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T20:59:29Z phoe_krk: pjb: how do I use that? 2015-10-29T21:00:18Z pjb: C-h v slime-inferior-process-start-hook RET 2015-10-29T21:01:06Z wuuuuuut quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T21:03:13Z pjb: phoe_krk: but otherwise, I think swank would need a patch to perform the bookmarking required to get a list of active repls and their IO streams. It would be the cleanest. 2015-10-29T21:03:43Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T21:03:55Z cagmz quit 2015-10-29T21:04:18Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-29T21:04:39Z phoe_krk: pjb: okay, it's an emacs hook. I still have no idea what or how I can do with it. 2015-10-29T21:04:56Z phoe_krk: do I wrap some sort of a function around it? 2015-10-29T21:05:08Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-29T21:06:54Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T21:07:34Z earl-ducaine: cagmz: You could rewrite the expression using a macro. Something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157790 2015-10-29T21:08:22Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T21:09:34Z earl-ducaine: Actually exercising the scope: would be: (scopify ((let ((a 1)(b 2))) (+ a 1) (- b 1))) 2015-10-29T21:12:46Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-29T21:16:18Z earl-ducaine: (note, the above is an example of quick-and-dirty (bad) macro writing, I should have used gensyms) 2015-10-29T21:16:21Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-29T21:17:32Z dtm` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2015-10-29T21:18:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: Be back later...) 2015-10-29T21:20:58Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T21:22:04Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-29T21:26:06Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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that's not what i meant, anyway? 2015-10-29T22:02:51Z Bicyclidine: if you have unity3d and lisp in two different processes, you have unity3d take input through the graphical console and throw that at lisp through whatever IPC. 2015-10-29T22:03:06Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:03:08Z phoe_krk: oh, got it. 2015-10-29T22:03:33Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:07:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:07:13Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:07:25Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2) 2015-10-29T22:07:29Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T22:09:10Z axion joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:09:34Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T22:11:56Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-29T22:14:25Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:15:52Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:21:56Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:23:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:23:23Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-29T22:28:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I use the use-value restart in my own code? 2015-10-29T22:28:47Z earl-ducaine: phoe_krk: if you use ECL you launch imbeded lisp in your process and and connect to it via slime from emacs. https://github.com/earl-ducaine/stupid-ecl-tricks-1 2015-10-29T22:28:54Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:29:39Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:30:36Z phoe_krk: earl-ducaine: I'm going with SBCL for now, but I'll remember the trick for later. 2015-10-29T22:31:21Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:32:24Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T22:32:43Z papachan is now known as papachan_ 2015-10-29T22:40:06Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-29T22:44:10Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T22:45:22Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 2015-10-29T22:47:39Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:49:25Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-29T22:50:43Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:51:05Z ajf-: object oriented is a nono in lisp right ? 2015-10-29T22:51:09Z ajf-: i should make all functions and as generic as possible 2015-10-29T22:51:30Z Shinmera: What. 2015-10-29T22:51:32Z blubjr: what 2015-10-29T22:51:35Z ajf-: :o 2015-10-29T22:51:39Z ajf-: what 2015-10-29T22:51:41Z failproofshark: oop 2015-10-29T22:51:43Z failproofshark: more like poo 2015-10-29T22:51:49Z failproofshark: (joking of course) 2015-10-29T22:52:00Z pillton: Common lisp is a multi-paradigm language. 2015-10-29T22:52:12Z Shinmera: And it has one of the most powerful object systems around. 2015-10-29T22:52:13Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:52:28Z ajf-: but can I define actual methods and do (new MyObject) 2015-10-29T22:52:29Z ajf-: ? 2015-10-29T22:52:41Z pillton: Methods belong to generic functions. 2015-10-29T22:52:54Z failproofshark: well you write generic functions and methods that describe its behavior 2015-10-29T22:52:58Z blubjr: make-instance makes new objects 2015-10-29T22:53:14Z blubjr: defclass defines classes 2015-10-29T22:53:24Z pillton: ajf-: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 2015-10-29T22:53:27Z ajf-: ah great 2015-10-29T22:53:37Z nikki93 quit 2015-10-29T22:53:39Z ajf-: yes I know I should read that 2015-10-29T22:53:57Z ajf-: sorry I haven't got the time, will have later 2015-10-29T22:54:04Z ajf-: right now i need hands on practical doing 2015-10-29T22:54:25Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:54:29Z pillton: ajf-: Then you will fail. 2015-10-29T22:54:39Z ajf-: well i've been doing that all along 2015-10-29T22:55:06Z pillton: Failing? 2015-10-29T22:55:21Z ajf-: yeah just barely I'm making my software work 2015-10-29T22:55:26Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:55:54Z ajf-: but I need to send something tomorrow 2015-10-29T22:56:09Z pillton: I'm not sure why that isn't a clear indication of misunderstanding. 2015-10-29T22:56:21Z ajf-: thankfully it's not for anybody else than me so you can count it as learning 2015-10-29T22:57:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:57:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-29T22:58:40Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:59:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-29T22:59:42Z Bicyclidine: the solution to writing crappy things that don't work because you're rushed is not to continue rushedly writing crap, mon 2015-10-29T23:00:21Z ajf-: ouff with 15 hours to go 2015-10-29T23:00:38Z ajf-: it's pretty late now 2015-10-29T23:00:59Z ajf-: i need to find the exact precise method of doing what I need to do, and then I could really read and dig into it 2015-10-29T23:01:10Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:01:16Z ajf-: but with try and failure i'll just waste time 2015-10-29T23:01:57Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:02:19Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:02:48Z pillton: That approach assumes the exact precise method is the correct thing to do. 2015-10-29T23:03:02Z pillton: What you search for might not exist. 2015-10-29T23:03:29Z MrWoohoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T23:04:11Z ajf-: do you mean there could be no way of modelling the problem 2015-10-29T23:04:23Z White_Flame: (defclass <class-name> ...) 2015-10-29T23:04:23Z White_Flame: (make-instance <class-name> ...) 2015-10-29T23:04:23Z White_Flame: (defgeneric <funcname> ...) 2015-10-29T23:04:23Z White_Flame: (defmethod <funcname> ((<param> <class-name>)) ...) 2015-10-29T23:04:30Z White_Flame: that's all you need, look them up in CLHS 2015-10-29T23:04:46Z ajf-: yes i was reading now 2015-10-29T23:05:23Z White_Flame: and that's all from memory, so use the spec, not me :-P 2015-10-29T23:05:32Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-29T23:05:52Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:05:55Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:06:40Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:06:42Z pillton: I'd read PCL first so you can correct your mental model. 2015-10-29T23:06:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: pillton: I've read that, I'm trying to figure out how to get the repl to prompt for a value when I choose the "use-value" restart 2015-10-29T23:08:22Z pillton: clhs restart-case 2015-10-29T23:08:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 2015-10-29T23:09:47Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:09:48Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-29T23:10:56Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:11:06Z phoe_krk: What is the portable way of changing the REPL prompt? 2015-10-29T23:11:36Z Bicyclidine: in slime or just any implementation? because if it's the latter i don't think there's a way 2015-10-29T23:11:58Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-29T23:12:13Z Shinmera: Write your own REPL. 2015-10-29T23:13:39Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157793 2015-10-29T23:13:50Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:14:35Z pjb: phoe_krk: check com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl 2015-10-29T23:15:18Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:15:47Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-29T23:15:52Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:16:43Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:16:51Z emaczen: Can you override "write-to-string" ? 2015-10-29T23:16:51Z minion: emaczen, memo from White_Flame: mucking with nested quotes & commas always takes a few debugging passes. best to lisppaste what you've got already. (defmacro something () `(defmacro add (p cd) `(send (,p ,cd) 'add)) 2015-10-29T23:17:47Z White_Flame: it's generally disallowed to redefine functions from the CL: package 2015-10-29T23:17:54Z blubjr: look at print-object 2015-10-29T23:17:56Z White_Flame: though you can shadow your own write-to-string in your own package 2015-10-29T23:18:24Z White_Flame: (and while it's disallowed, you can unlock the CL package and redefine stuff anyway) 2015-10-29T23:18:36Z White_Flame: but yes, print-object might be what you need instead 2015-10-29T23:18:37Z emaczen: I'm doing (mapcar #'write-to-string lst) and it works nicely except for characters 2015-10-29T23:19:30Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:19:34Z Bicyclidine: probably you can set one of the billion variables controlling printing to do what you like 2015-10-29T23:19:42Z Bicyclidine: how is it not working for characters in the way you want? 2015-10-29T23:20:08Z emaczen: Yes, look at this: (mapcar #'write-to-string '(x * x #\; )) 2015-10-29T23:20:09Z White_Flame: FORMAT has list-walking facilities, too: (format nil "~{~a~}" '("abc" abc #\d)) -> "abcABCd" 2015-10-29T23:20:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm pillton thanks 2015-10-29T23:20:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: . .. 2015-10-29T23:20:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/I'm// 2015-10-29T23:20:40Z emaczen: look at how it handles the #\; 2015-10-29T23:20:51Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: this is the output i expected. what output do YOU want? 2015-10-29T23:21:18Z White_Flame: (format nil "~{~a~}" '(x * x #\;)) -> "X*X;" 2015-10-29T23:21:19Z emaczen: Instead of "#\\;" I just want ";"b 2015-10-29T23:21:27Z blubjr: princ-to-string 2015-10-29T23:21:28Z Bicyclidine: bind *print-escape* to nil. 2015-10-29T23:21:57Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:22:01Z Bicyclidine: (let ((*print-escape* nil)) (mapcar #'write-to-string '(x * x #\;))) => ("X" "*" "X" ";") 2015-10-29T23:22:31Z White_Flame holds up a big flashing neon sign with FORMAT on it 2015-10-29T23:22:42Z White_Flame: ~a is your friend here 2015-10-29T23:22:47Z Bicyclidine: format's nice, but if i can do it this way i prefer it. 2015-10-29T23:23:13Z White_Flame: oh, brainfart, this is returning a list of strings, not one string, n/m 2015-10-29T23:23:27Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-29T23:23:35Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:23:47Z emaczen: White_Flame: I reduce concatenate 'string next 2015-10-29T23:23:52Z phoe_krk: Is there any sort of list of online materials about writing a network client of any sorts with Lisp, in functional style? 2015-10-29T23:23:54Z White_Flame: then use FORMAT ;) 2015-10-29T23:24:07Z Bicyclidine: yeah, concatenate mapcar is not great, usually 2015-10-29T23:24:16Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:24:22Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:24:25Z Bicyclidine: phoe_krk: drakma sources, maybe 2015-10-29T23:24:34Z Bicyclidine: i don't know of any actual tutorials 2015-10-29T23:24:40Z Xach: drakma's not the prettiest 2015-10-29T23:24:58Z White_Flame: what does IO in functional style mean? IO is usually non-referentially transparent 2015-10-29T23:24:58Z Bicyclidine: the one i worked with more was cl-irc, and it's reasonably well organized but has some ugliness 2015-10-29T23:25:32Z Bicyclidine: White_Flame: judging by some earlier messages of phoe_krk, "functional" could just be meant as writing small functions that actually return things instead of javaish behemoths 2015-10-29T23:25:34Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-29T23:26:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Monadic? 2015-10-29T23:27:47Z Bicyclidine: monads are just a set of generic functions, not any kind of overall magic organizing principle 2015-10-29T23:27:51Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:28:20Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:28:23Z White_Flame: I think you'd be hard-pressed to a find monadic network IO lib in Lisp. Not saying it definitely doesn't exist, but there are plenty of "regular" stateful networking abstractions in use 2015-10-29T23:31:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bicyclidine: well, it does imply dividing your code into stateful and non-stateful parts 2015-10-29T23:32:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, usually, making the stateful parts as small as possible 2015-10-29T23:32:17Z phoe_krk: ...that's one really, really weird style of writing anything. 2015-10-29T23:32:23Z phoe_krk looks at drakma source 2015-10-29T23:32:34Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:32:41Z phoe_krk: Like, um. 2015-10-29T23:32:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. in Haskell, long do blocks are generally looked upon as bad style) 2015-10-29T23:33:01Z Bicyclidine: i mean, it's probably going to boil down to, what, poll a socket, if there's shit in it do some parsing and then dispatch based on the message type 2015-10-29T23:33:37Z cagmz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:33:58Z phoe_krk: There's more documentation than code. 2015-10-29T23:34:13Z phoe_krk: I'm puzzled over where all the stuff actually happens. 2015-10-29T23:34:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: (>>= (get-data) (dispatch-data) (defun dispatch-data (x) (cond x (state-a (do-foo x)) (state-b (do-bar x))) 2015-10-29T23:35:17Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: You write I/O applications the same way you write a GUI. 2015-10-29T23:35:18Z White_Flame: Bicyclidine: either that, or register a function to get called on an incoming packet, and make those determinations 2015-10-29T23:35:49Z Bicyclidine: true 2015-10-29T23:37:26Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:37:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: you might also look at https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador 2015-10-29T23:38:09Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:39:35Z phoe_krk: hm, I see. 2015-10-29T23:40:14Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-29T23:41:58Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:44:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lets say I have a function (defun add-to-numbers (a b) (+ a b)) is it possible to use restarts to replace invalid values of a and b with valid ones? 2015-10-29T23:45:47Z mathiasx joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:46:11Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:46:52Z pillton: Yes. 2015-10-29T23:46:53Z emaczen: Is there a loop clause like collect that creates a string? 2015-10-29T23:47:06Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-29T23:47:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I right in thinking that I'd wrap the + invocation with a (restart-bind)? 2015-10-29T23:48:02Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:48:03Z pillton: No. (unless (numberp a) (error "A is not a number.")) 2015-10-29T23:48:17Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:48:39Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-29T23:49:13Z _death: clhs check-type 2015-10-29T23:49:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 2015-10-29T23:50:18Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:51:24Z _death: emaczen: it's likely you want with-output-to-string 2015-10-29T23:52:33Z Xach: pjb: any motion on com.informatigo systems? 2015-10-29T23:52:38Z Xach: informatimago 2015-10-29T23:54:02Z emaczen: _death: I am in a loop form though 2015-10-29T23:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was hoping there was a way I could tell Lisp to re-evaluate the (+ ) form with a new argument, rather than having to specify the arguments to be checked 2015-10-29T23:55:29Z blubjr: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for i below 10 do (princ i s))) ;=> "0123456789" 2015-10-29T23:55:31Z White_Flame: emaczen: that's fine. wrap the loop in a with-output-to-string, and just print from within th eloop 2015-10-29T23:55:47Z pillton: fiddlerwoaroof: You re-evaluate add-two-numbers. 2015-10-29T23:56:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-29T23:57:36Z emaczen: White_Flame: I would rather not collect into a list if I could just "collect into a string" 2015-10-29T23:58:18Z White_Flame: emaczen: I know. That's what we're describing 2015-10-29T23:58:23Z blubjr: emaczen: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for i below 10 do (princ i s))) ;=> "0123456789" 2015-10-29T23:58:26Z White_Flame: look at blubjr's example 2015-10-29T23:59:15Z pjb: Xach: None, sorry. You might want to skip informatimago this month. 2015-10-29T23:59:49Z pjb: Xach: you're using the github repo, right? 2015-10-30T00:00:04Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:01:07Z emaczen: White_Flame: Cool 2015-10-30T00:01:30Z emaczen: When and why was with-output-to-string made? 2015-10-30T00:02:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:02:33Z Bicyclidine: it was made because this sort of thing is convenient? 2015-10-30T00:02:35Z White_Flame: one assumes to capture output easily, but it's a handy general tool 2015-10-30T00:05:26Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:06:09Z vydd: that'd be great, but having the source is already a great thing (judging by youtube videos you linked) 2015-10-30T00:06:19Z vydd: woops 2015-10-30T00:08:34Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:08:45Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T00:14:30Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-30T00:14:43Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T00:16:03Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: I just don't get writing or designing in that drakma- or dexador-style approach. I have no idea where to begin. Aren't there any tutorials for that? 2015-10-30T00:17:51Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:18:07Z Bicyclidine: i don't think any of it is too network specific, it's just usual lisp coding in a particular domain 2015-10-30T00:18:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:18:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: it's just a state machine 2015-10-30T00:19:00Z Bicyclidine: if you want tutorials for general style there's pcl and all 2015-10-30T00:19:06Z pjb: emaczen: for the same reason java has StringBuilder. With-output-to-string is our StringBuilder. 2015-10-30T00:19:16Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: aren't states icky in functional programming? 2015-10-30T00:19:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: depends on how you handle them 2015-10-30T00:19:40Z pjb: emaczen: now, you could compare both features and tell us which one you find more convenient :-) 2015-10-30T00:19:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: mutable state is what's "icky" to FPers 2015-10-30T00:19:57Z megid0 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:20:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is why they tend to segregate it off in a small corner of their program 2015-10-30T00:20:27Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: I will have to deal with states, as in, there will be e.g. lists of characters that get changed all the time as other people connect and disconnect 2015-10-30T00:20:48Z phoe_krk: I have no idea what is any other way to deal with that 2015-10-30T00:21:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: the basic approach is to have a hashtable or something that maps combinations of state to functions 2015-10-30T00:21:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then the functions you dispatch to should be as deterministic as possible 2015-10-30T00:22:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. given a certain input, they should always produce the same output) 2015-10-30T00:23:08Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:23:09Z phoe_krk: How can a chat client be deterministic? 2015-10-30T00:23:40Z phoe_krk: It sort of defies the point of a chat client. 2015-10-30T00:24:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just deterministic, given the input: i.e. if a says "send this message to b" the client should send it to be 2015-10-30T00:24:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: so (send-message (a b msg) ) should be completely determined by its arguments 2015-10-30T00:24:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: that is (send-message a b msg) 2015-10-30T00:25:02Z phoe_krk: ...that is something I understand. 2015-10-30T00:25:17Z phoe_krk: So (send message a b msg) should always produce the same output. 2015-10-30T00:25:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah: the general architecture would be something like a bunch of functions for the various things people can do and then a small bit of code to map network data to the appropriate function 2015-10-30T00:26:01Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:27:27Z phoe_krk: It's a graphical chat; I need to store the current list of online characters, the values for characters' locations, what they look like, et cetera. How should I handle that? 2015-10-30T00:28:15Z phoe_krk: Judging by what I assume, a simple list of structs won't do FP-style. 2015-10-30T00:28:20Z ziocroc quit (Quit: ziocroc) 2015-10-30T00:28:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:28:52Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T00:28:54Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:29:35Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:29:35Z pjb: phoe_krk: and why wouldn't it do? 2015-10-30T00:29:59Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T00:30:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: the goal of FP is to isolate mutable state 2015-10-30T00:30:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not to get rid of it 2015-10-30T00:30:27Z pjb: phoe_krk: purely functional programs are very simple: they're a function taking state as input and producing new state as output. There's no mutation. 2015-10-30T00:30:38Z phoe_krk: ... 2015-10-30T00:30:53Z phoe_krk: I just got that "mutable" is a word derived from "mutate" and not "mute". 2015-10-30T00:30:59Z phoe_krk: Now things start making sense. 2015-10-30T00:31:15Z arrubin joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:31:16Z pjb: phoe_krk: Then you can write: (defun main() (loop :for state := (initial-state) :then (purely-functional-program state) :until (final-state-p state))) 2015-10-30T00:31:44Z pjb: There's a mutation hidden in this loop, but 1- it's not obvious, 2- it's not mutation of data, only mutation of a binding. 2015-10-30T00:32:11Z pjb: and 3- it could be transformed into a tail-recursive function hidding the mutation even more. 2015-10-30T00:32:23Z phoe_krk: pjb: hmm... That's something that I can work with. 2015-10-30T00:32:34Z pjb: phoe_krk: so, having removed all mutation from your program, you can now write purely-functional-program. 2015-10-30T00:33:02Z pjb: You will realize that using vectors or hash-tables is much more of a problem than using lists. 2015-10-30T00:33:32Z pjb: In Clojure, IIRC, vectors are not O(1), they're O(log(n,32)) 2015-10-30T00:33:47Z keen____________ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:34:07Z phoe_krk: So they are chunked into pieces of length 32? 2015-10-30T00:34:13Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-30T00:34:26Z phoe_krk: And lists are consistently O(n), right? 2015-10-30T00:34:28Z pjb: So when you want to update a slot, you have to copy only log(n,32) vectors. 2015-10-30T00:34:31Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-30T00:34:46Z keen___________ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:35:00Z __main__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T00:35:15Z phoe_krk: ...hm. 2015-10-30T00:35:29Z phoe_krk: So I can just begin by writing an initial state of my program, correct? 2015-10-30T00:35:47Z pjb: Or actually, any intermediate state. It doesn't matter. 2015-10-30T00:35:51Z pjb: It's functional. 2015-10-30T00:36:09Z phoe_krk: Like, no connections, no active sessions, no class instances. 2015-10-30T00:36:17Z pjb: Often the initial conditions are only known with all exactitude only when all the code has been written. 2015-10-30T00:36:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:36:28Z phoe_krk: And then assume that something changes, and program that piece out. 2015-10-30T00:37:11Z pjb: Since I/O is basically not functional, it might be done by the main loop. It becomes an "event loop". 2015-10-30T00:39:12Z phoe_krk: So, basically, there are only two things that can change the state of the program. Either client I/O, or server I/O. 2015-10-30T00:39:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:39:30Z pjb: (defun main() (loop :for inputs := nil :then (get-all-available-inputs (selected-inputs state)) :for state := (initial-state) :then (purely-functional-program state input) :for outputs := (generated-outputs state) :do (perform-outputs outputs) :until (final-state-p state))) 2015-10-30T00:40:14Z megid0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:40:24Z pjb: so the purely-functional-program can compute from a given state and input a new state, which contains a list of inputs it's "listening" to (selected-inputs) and a list of output that should be perfoedm (generated-outputs). 2015-10-30T00:40:28Z phoe_krk: ...I need that indented, wait a second. 2015-10-30T00:43:04Z phoe_krk: So outputs are basically side effects and they have nothing to do with the program's state, and inputs can only influence it and cause it to change. 2015-10-30T00:43:31Z pjb: No, for the purely-functional-program, outputs are only parts of the resulting new state. 2015-10-30T00:44:01Z phoe_krk: They're parts of the new state. Got it. 2015-10-30T00:44:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:45:46Z pjb: For example, a progarm that would increment any number read would be: (defun purely-functional-program (state input) (list :selected-inputs (list (list 'read '*standard-input*)) :outputs (when input (list (list 'print '*standard-output* (1+ (second (assoc '*standard-input* input)))))))) 2015-10-30T00:45:58Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-30T00:46:07Z pjb: (purely-functional-program nil nil) #| --> (:selected-inputs ((read *standard-input*)) :outputs nil) |# 2015-10-30T00:46:30Z pjb: (purely-functional-program '(:selected-inputs ((read *standard-input*)) :outputs nil) '((*standard-input* 42))) #| --> (:selected-inputs ((read *standard-input*)) :outputs ((print *standard-output* 43))) |# 2015-10-30T00:46:50Z phoe_krk: pjb: please, paste.lisp.org it for me, the emoticons in Thunderbird are killing it for me 2015-10-30T00:47:21Z blubjr: lol 2015-10-30T00:47:34Z phoe_krk: :s and :) everywhere ;_; 2015-10-30T00:50:10Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:51:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof sounds like it's time to use irssi 2015-10-30T00:52:54Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T00:53:11Z phoe_krk: ...he couldn't stand my Thunderbird 2015-10-30T00:53:22Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:54:21Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-30T00:56:42Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T00:56:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: automatic text -> smiley face is evi 2015-10-30T00:56:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: l 2015-10-30T00:57:34Z phoe_krk: :s 2015-10-30T00:57:37Z phoe_krk: yes 2015-10-30T00:57:42Z phoe_krk: I just managed to turn it off. 2015-10-30T01:00:10Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:00:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does postmodern have some way to get the text of the query that caused the condition? 2015-10-30T01:02:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: nvm, 2015-10-30T01:03:41Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:04:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone happen to have a minimalistic ncurses editor that can be embedded in a script? 2015-10-30T01:05:34Z warweasle: Is rpav still active? 2015-10-30T01:05:42Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-30T01:06:56Z cagmz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T01:07:33Z cagmz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:07:44Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: mfw) 2015-10-30T01:09:30Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:12:24Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:12:32Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:15:01Z cagmz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:16:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:18:17Z cagmz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:18:42Z warweasle: I need to export symbols from a prexisting package. How do I do that? 2015-10-30T01:19:48Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:20:12Z cagmz_ quit 2015-10-30T01:21:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (in-package) (export ...)? 2015-10-30T01:22:12Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I didn't know the symbols had to be in a list. 2015-10-30T01:22:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: export is a function 2015-10-30T01:23:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: the usual way, though is to put the exports in the defpackage 2015-10-30T01:23:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defpackage foo (:use :cl . . .) (:export :bar . . .)) 2015-10-30T01:24:55Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: Well....I'm sort of adding them to another person's library when they load mine. 2015-10-30T01:25:10Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:25:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's probably a bad idea . . . 2015-10-30T01:25:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can always just refer to them like this: (someone-elses-package::some-function arg) 2015-10-30T01:26:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, if their not exported, their not part of the package's public interface . . . 2015-10-30T01:26:52Z synergistics joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:27:11Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:27:16Z blubjr: why are you doing that 2015-10-30T01:27:18Z synergistics left #lisp 2015-10-30T01:27:21Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: It actually makes sense in context. Cairo and Pango work together. Three of my functions don't make any sense under pango. They are cairo's area. 2015-10-30T01:28:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: warweasle: you probably should defpackage my-cairo or something 2015-10-30T01:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defpackage my-cairo (:use :cl :other-cairo) (:export :my-new-func)) 2015-10-30T01:28:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: then add my-cairo and other-cairo to the :use 2015-10-30T01:28:55Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:29:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way, your changes won't accidentally conflict with future versions of other-cairo 2015-10-30T01:30:36Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm about to submit the changes to cl-cairo2. 2015-10-30T01:30:43Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:31:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: In that case, you should add them to cl-cairo2's defpackage 2015-10-30T01:31:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:31:24Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: But yes. That is what I should do but cl-pango isn't released on ql yet so... 2015-10-30T01:31:52Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, along with the macros. 2015-10-30T01:33:23Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm typing up the pull request now. 2015-10-30T01:34:36Z phoe_krk: https://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ worth the read? 2015-10-30T01:34:46Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-30T01:34:52Z phoe_krk: WB, pjb 2015-10-30T01:35:25Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:35:45Z badkins quit 2015-10-30T01:37:16Z phoe_krk: pjb: so, in FP, is it fine if I end up creating one huge struct named state and, when input happens, I end up returning an accordingly modified state struct? 2015-10-30T01:37:28Z pjb: no. 2015-10-30T01:37:38Z pjb: You never "modify" anything in pure fp. 2015-10-30T01:37:43Z phoe_krk: kdsjfhskdjfh 2015-10-30T01:37:44Z phoe_krk: what I mean 2015-10-30T01:37:48Z pjb: You create a new structure, if you want to use a structure. 2015-10-30T01:37:54Z phoe_krk: ^ 2015-10-30T01:38:59Z pjb: (defpackage "FPLISP" (:import-from "CL" . #1=("LET" #|not SETF|# "CONS" "CAR" …)) (:export . #1#)) 2015-10-30T01:39:08Z pjb: then use FPLISP instead of CL. 2015-10-30T01:39:49Z pjb: Tools > Options > Display: Display emoticons as graphics 2015-10-30T01:40:15Z pjb: I don't have it :-( 2015-10-30T01:40:41Z pjb: https://gist.github.com/jjdeluxe/4942127 2015-10-30T01:41:06Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:41:55Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:43:15Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-30T01:43:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:46:09Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-10-30T01:46:33Z pjb: Well, Thunderbird is free software, you're free to patch it to remove those smiley (or write a more intelligent smiley detection function). 2015-10-30T01:46:39Z vydd quit 2015-10-30T01:47:24Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:47:39Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T01:48:42Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:51:21Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:51:32Z emaczen: Is there any built-in function like sequence-functionp? 2015-10-30T01:51:52Z pjb: What is this? 2015-10-30T01:52:29Z emaczen: A predicate to determine whether one of its parameters takes a sequence 2015-10-30T01:52:47Z emaczen: Maybe a single parameter function 2015-10-30T01:52:55Z pjb: No, no built-in and basically no way to do it conformingly. 2015-10-30T01:53:09Z emaczen: Ahh 2015-10-30T01:53:20Z pjb: Basically you would have to write a new CL implementation, to do it conformingly. 2015-10-30T01:54:18Z emaczen: I'll get right on that. 2015-10-30T01:54:20Z emaczen: lol 2015-10-30T01:55:21Z warweasle: pjb: (loop (print (magic (eval (read))))) 2015-10-30T01:57:36Z nicdev is now known as nicdev_ 2015-10-30T01:57:56Z emaczen: How could I dispatch on lists of different types? 2015-10-30T01:58:54Z pjb: you mean with generic functions? 2015-10-30T01:59:03Z emaczen: Correct 2015-10-30T01:59:06Z axion: you can dispatch on classes, not types 2015-10-30T01:59:14Z pjb: generic functions don't dispatch on types, only on classes. 2015-10-30T01:59:15Z White_Flame: how do you dispatch on an empty list? 2015-10-30T01:59:27Z pjb: you use the class. 2015-10-30T01:59:31Z pjb: (class-of '()) #| --> #<built-in-class null> |# 2015-10-30T01:59:32Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T01:59:39Z pjb: (class-name (class-of '())) #| --> null |# 2015-10-30T01:59:58Z White_Flame: I mean to emaczen. If you have type specifiers for lists containing ints, vs lists containing floats, how do you propose dispatching on an empty list? 2015-10-30T02:00:19Z White_Flame: does an empty list satisfy both types? neither? 2015-10-30T02:00:19Z pjb: Also, check with the clhs, because some implementations have implementation specific classes, so using such a class would give a non-conforming program. 2015-10-30T02:00:23Z White_Flame: those are the problems 2015-10-30T02:00:44Z pjb: emaczen: (defclass list-of-int () (…)) 2015-10-30T02:01:10Z emaczen: pjb: Yes, I was wondering if there was something less custom 2015-10-30T02:01:26Z pjb: No, there is not. CL is a programmer's programming language. 2015-10-30T02:01:46Z pjb: With CL, you write your own code. 2015-10-30T02:01:56Z White_Flame: a programmer's programmable programming program programmer 2015-10-30T02:02:02Z pjb: CL worked very hard to make writing your own code easy. So don't hesitate to do it. 2015-10-30T02:04:09Z phoe_krk: What's the #+name and #-name I keep on stumbling upon in the code? 2015-10-30T02:04:13Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-30T02:05:05Z White_Flame: it's sort of like #ifdef in C 2015-10-30T02:05:13Z axion: reader conditionals 2015-10-30T02:05:30Z White_Flame: #+symbol = (when (member <symbol> *features*) ...) at read-time 2015-10-30T02:05:44Z White_Flame: check the value of *features* in your lisp to see the sort of stuff that's there 2015-10-30T02:06:43Z phoe_krk: Is this in the ANSI? 2015-10-30T02:06:57Z phoe_krk: I mean, *features*? 2015-10-30T02:07:14Z phoe_krk: it is. 2015-10-30T02:07:39Z White_Flame: as well as #+ and #- 2015-10-30T02:07:39Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:08:09Z phoe_krk: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/v_featur.htm 2015-10-30T02:08:13Z phoe_krk: :cltl2 2015-10-30T02:08:26Z phoe_krk: "...This feature must not be present in any conforming implementation, since conformance to that document is not compatible with conformance to this specification." 2015-10-30T02:08:40Z phoe_krk: So, um. 2015-10-30T02:08:45Z axion: clhs 2.4.8.17 2015-10-30T02:08:45Z specbot: Sharpsign Plus: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2015-10-30T02:08:54Z phoe_krk: If an implementation is :cltl2, it must not have :cltl2 in its features? 2015-10-30T02:09:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T02:09:50Z blubjr: did you read the rest of the paragraph 2015-10-30T02:10:00Z phoe_krk: Yes, and I didn't understand. 2015-10-30T02:10:50Z phoe_krk: :cltl2 is when it is document-compliant, and :cltl2 is not when it is specification-compliant. 2015-10-30T02:10:53Z phoe_krk: I still don't get it. 2015-10-30T02:11:29Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:11:41Z White_Flame: ANSI CL must not have :CLTL2 in its *FEATURES* list 2015-10-30T02:12:03Z White_Flame: "conforming implementation", as in the blue underlined definition means conforming to ansi cl 2015-10-30T02:12:04Z phoe_krk: Oh, it's ANSI CL, and not CLTL2. 2015-10-30T02:12:04Z blubjr: its admittance that it doesn't specify to the final standard of ansi cl 2015-10-30T02:12:11Z phoe_krk: I got it now. 2015-10-30T02:12:15Z blubjr: which grew from cltl2 2015-10-30T02:12:19Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T02:12:20Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:16:24Z loke: Good morning Lisp 2015-10-30T02:16:48Z blubjr: hi loke 2015-10-30T02:16:53Z phoe_krk: hey 2015-10-30T02:17:19Z blubjr: wow conform not specify, coffee 2015-10-30T02:17:49Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:22:02Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T02:24:48Z stephen_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:25:14Z oystewh joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:25:46Z stephen_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T02:26:19Z oystewh: what's the way to handle quiet underflows? i have single floats turning into "#<SINGLE-FLOAT quiet NaN>" when they approach zero (i think) and they throw exceptions/conditions 2015-10-30T02:28:37Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2015-10-30T02:29:54Z oystewh: nvm 2015-10-30T02:30:56Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T02:32:29Z warweasle quit (Quit: Night all.) 2015-10-30T02:33:55Z loke: oystewh: Um, I'd never expect that to happen. 2015-10-30T02:33:58Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:34:58Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:35:27Z oystewh: i have a weird bug that made it look like it 2015-10-30T02:35:29Z oystewh: not sure what causes it 2015-10-30T02:36:28Z loke: I doubt it's that. Could it be that you are actually rounding to zero and then you end up with deivision by zero and stuff like that? 2015-10-30T02:36:44Z pillton: oystewh: What implementation? 2015-10-30T02:36:46Z loke: (although CL generally raises an exception when doing not, not return nan's) 2015-10-30T02:37:32Z oystewh: sbcl 2015-10-30T02:38:17Z pillton: oystewh: There is the function sb-int:set-floating-point-modes for changing floating point traps and rounding. 2015-10-30T02:38:30Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T02:39:09Z pillton: I need to use it when performing eigenvalue and singular value decompositions with LAPACK. 2015-10-30T02:39:29Z loke: pillton: that looks useful, I didn't know about that function. Do you happen to know if you can set that on a given dynamic scope or if the effect is global? 2015-10-30T02:39:31Z pillton: Conjugate gradient solvers need them too. 2015-10-30T02:39:50Z loke: pillton: You doing physics? 2015-10-30T02:39:53Z Bike: there's sb-int:with-float-trap-masks for dynamic scope, i think 2015-10-30T02:40:02Z loke: Bike: thanks 2015-10-30T02:40:14Z oystewh: im doing a gradient thing, actually, with a mlp machine learning thing. _thanks_, deadline is just around the corner 2015-10-30T02:40:30Z pillton: loke: What Bike said. No, not physics. 2015-10-30T02:41:01Z Bike: you can use SVD for all kinds of things! all of which are pretty scary! 2015-10-30T02:41:33Z trinitr0n: LispErs who are interested in Symbolics bits, reverse engineering, hardware, and the ongoing restoration and bitsaving efforts for the platform shouls join me in #bolix 2015-10-30T02:41:50Z trinitr0n: trying this again 2015-10-30T02:42:16Z loke: pillton: Why not? Physics is fun 2015-10-30T02:42:23Z White_Flame: /join #bollocks 2015-10-30T02:42:39Z pillton left #lisp 2015-10-30T02:42:42Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:42:48Z pillton left #lisp 2015-10-30T02:42:51Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:43:04Z loke: White_Flame: Some bollox in the morning 2015-10-30T02:43:14Z oystewh: uhh where is sb-int:set-floating-point-modes documented? 2015-10-30T02:43:18Z pillton: loke: I'm sure physics is fun. There are other things that are fun too. 2015-10-30T02:43:35Z loke: pillton: Possibly. 2015-10-30T02:43:38Z pillton: I don't think it is. 2015-10-30T02:43:54Z White_Flame: the sb-int package isn't in the manual at all 2015-10-30T02:44:10Z oystewh: care to suggest arguments to it? 2015-10-30T02:44:12Z Bike: sb-int is internals, it's bad juju. 2015-10-30T02:44:18Z Bike: uh, just a sec 2015-10-30T02:44:26Z pillton: (sb-int:set-floating-point-modes :traps nil :rounding-mode :nearest) 2015-10-30T02:44:45Z Bike: :overflow, :underflow, :inexact, :invalid, :divide-by-zero, :denormalized-operand 2015-10-30T02:44:52Z Bike: are the arguments to traps 2015-10-30T02:45:19Z oystewh quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-30T02:45:41Z oystewh joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:45:52Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T02:46:05Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:46:12Z oystewh: care to repeat that.. hit the wrong button 2015-10-30T02:46:15Z Bike: maybe we should ask for a proper extension for this. 2015-10-30T02:46:21Z Bike: :overflow, :underflow, :inexact, :invalid, :divide-by-zero, :denormalized-operand are traps. 2015-10-30T02:46:25Z oystewh: thanks 2015-10-30T02:47:00Z Bike: by the way, how do you get a quiet NaN? i've gotten infinities but not that. 2015-10-30T02:47:26Z Bike: ah, 0/0 does it. 2015-10-30T02:47:50Z pillton: (/ 0d0 0d0) 2015-10-30T02:48:59Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-30T02:49:31Z aap__ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:49:37Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T02:50:23Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T02:50:26Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:52:31Z oystewh: weird, there are no places wehre i can get division by zero 2015-10-30T02:52:51Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T02:53:14Z hydan` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T02:53:22Z pillton: An uninitialised array perhaps? 2015-10-30T02:54:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-30T02:54:22Z oystewh: could be.. i'll step thourgh the code tomorrow 2015-10-30T02:55:19Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T02:56:16Z pillton: Aww man. The suspense is killing me. 2015-10-30T02:56:24Z pillton: All these people who do stuff tomorrow. 2015-10-30T02:57:03Z pjb: Imagine if instead of living or Earth, we lived on Mercury. Always the same light, no night or day. We'd be going on working all the time! 2015-10-30T02:57:11Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T02:57:19Z pillton: Ah.. what a life. 2015-10-30T02:57:31Z pillton whips the plebs. 2015-10-30T02:57:40Z pjb: On the other hand, those born on the dark side would be sleeping all the time! 2015-10-30T02:57:49Z oystewh: duuuuuh yes 2015-10-30T02:58:09Z pillton: oystewh: What? 2015-10-30T02:58:10Z oystewh: something got setf'd when it should ahve been copied 2015-10-30T02:58:18Z oystewh: thanks! 2015-10-30T02:59:51Z oystewh: effin' hell.. 2015-10-30T03:00:38Z pillton: It could have been worse. I spent a day looking for a bug that turned out to be the format statement I was using for debugging. 2015-10-30T03:01:49Z oystewh: eheh been there 2015-10-30T03:02:31Z pillton: Did anyone here go to the talk by Barbara Liskov this week? I think it was at Oxford. 2015-10-30T03:02:50Z pillton: Donald Knuth was there apparently. 2015-10-30T03:04:51Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:05:35Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:05:36Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:05:36Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:05:36Z jozip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:05:36Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:05:59Z lancetw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:02Z happy-dude quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:06:02Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:06:02Z oskarth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:06:04Z l1x quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:04Z mathiasx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:04Z rvirding quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:05Z wyan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:05Z asedeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:12Z faheem__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:12Z trig-ger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:06:32Z brandonz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T03:06:52Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:07:00Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-30T03:07:04Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T03:29:52Z phoe_krk: pjb: because I can't imagine sending a *whole* struct to my frontend on every update 2015-10-30T03:30:05Z Bike: sure, why not 2015-10-30T03:30:47Z keen___________0 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:31:17Z phoe_krk: I'm just wondering. That would be a function *without* any internal state aside from its output though, correct? Just collect a list of diffs and output it. 2015-10-30T03:31:34Z Bike: well, if it's output it's not internal. 2015-10-30T03:31:45Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T03:31:46Z phoe_krk: /s/internal// 2015-10-30T03:31:55Z Bike: well, yeah. 2015-10-30T03:32:03Z keen____________ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:32:50Z ajf-: i can't have more than one argument in a setf function ? 2015-10-30T03:32:57Z phoe_krk: you can 2015-10-30T03:32:57Z Bike: Sure you can. 2015-10-30T03:33:04Z phoe_krk: (setf a 1 b 2 c 3) 2015-10-30T03:33:32Z jasom: ajf-: you have it backwards, you need at *least* one argument in a setf function 2015-10-30T03:33:49Z Bike: phoe_krk: that's different. 2015-10-30T03:34:04Z phoe_krk: Bike: hm? 2015-10-30T03:34:05Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:34:15Z jasom: phoe_krk: that's not a function, much less a setf function 2015-10-30T03:34:32Z phoe_krk: oh wait, a setf function. 2015-10-30T03:34:34Z Bike: phoe_krk: that's just multiple setfs. "multiple arguments" is more like (setf (aref foo a b c d) v). 2015-10-30T03:35:04Z ajf-: (defun (setf set-part) (score n vec) (setf (elt (slot-value score 'parts) n) vec)) 2015-10-30T03:35:51Z Bike: sure. 2015-10-30T03:36:16Z Bike: except that setf functions take the new value as their _first_ argument. 2015-10-30T03:36:40Z Bike: so (defun (setf set-part) (vec score n) ...). 2015-10-30T03:36:51Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T03:36:51Z Bike: though (setf (set-part score n) vec) looks a bit silly. setf set set set 2015-10-30T03:37:28Z jasom: yeah (defun (setf part) ...) looks better 2015-10-30T03:37:38Z ajf-: (setf (elt (slot-value score 'parts) 2) #("w" "e" "e" "e")) ? 2015-10-30T03:37:51Z ajf-: better that way ? 2015-10-30T03:38:02Z Bike: uh, i have no idea? 2015-10-30T03:38:16Z jasom: ajf-: Bike was nit-picking the name of your function: don't put the prefix "set-" on a setf function 2015-10-30T03:38:37Z ajf-: i was considering that too actually 2015-10-30T03:38:51Z ajf-: but i can't get it to work it was just 'part' before 2015-10-30T03:39:04Z ajf-: I'm gonna try Bike's suggestion 2015-10-30T03:39:05Z jasom: so (defun (setf part) (vec score n) (setf (elt (slot-value score 'parts) n) vec)) 2015-10-30T03:40:12Z ajf-: but, then do I do (setf (set-part my-score) 2 #(1 1)) ? 2015-10-30T03:40:24Z ajf-: Odd number of args 2015-10-30T03:40:26Z Bike: no. 2015-10-30T03:40:48Z Bike: (setf (fun foo bar baz) value) => (funcall #'(setf fun) value foo bar baz). 2015-10-30T03:41:05Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:41:16Z ajf-: nice thank you 2015-10-30T03:46:21Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-30T03:49:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs equal 2015-10-30T03:50:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs equal 2015-10-30T03:50:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 2015-10-30T03:50:38Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:01:59Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:02:23Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T04:02:59Z gilez joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:05:08Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:06:49Z mathiasx left #lisp 2015-10-30T04:06:50Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:08:39Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:08:42Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:12:08Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T04:17:09Z mac_ified quit 2015-10-30T04:18:19Z trig-ger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:18:19Z bb010g quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:18:59Z pootler quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:19:19Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:19:39Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:19:59Z trig-ger joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:20:09Z pootler joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:22:16Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T04:23:24Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:24:04Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T04:25:16Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:26:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:28:12Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:29:06Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:29:30Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:30:57Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:34:33Z ajf-: how can I create a vector with i -1 and j-i 1 ? 2015-10-30T04:34:55Z Bike: what? 2015-10-30T04:36:14Z resttime: A 2D array? 2015-10-30T04:36:36Z ajf-: (merge 'vector (make-array i :initial-element -1) (make-array (- j i) :initial-element 1)) 2015-10-30T04:36:51Z ajf-: e.g. #(-1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1) 2015-10-30T04:41:20Z ajf-: concatenate 2015-10-30T04:41:21Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:41:41Z Bike: (concatenate 'vector ...) 2015-10-30T04:43:39Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:44:52Z ajf-: looks ugly in a loop though 2015-10-30T04:44:54Z ajf-: but fine 2015-10-30T04:45:53Z blackcat13 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:46:35Z blackcat13 left #lisp 2015-10-30T04:50:12Z ajf-: a progn in (defmethod initialize-instance is bad news right ? 2015-10-30T04:51:01Z flip214: ajf-: how about FLET? 2015-10-30T04:51:08Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-10-30T04:51:13Z flip214: oh, sorry, misread. 2015-10-30T04:51:53Z blubjr: ajf-: why 2015-10-30T04:52:28Z ajf-: blubjr I'm starting to get a feel that my object initialization is just a wrapper for a huge procedural blob 2015-10-30T04:52:29Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T04:53:24Z resttime: Probably wouldn't hurt to move it into another function/method if you think it's getting complicated. 2015-10-30T04:53:35Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:54:12Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T04:54:55Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T04:55:44Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-30T04:58:11Z phoe_krk: night, #parens 2015-10-30T04:58:41Z resttime: ) 2015-10-30T05:00:36Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:00:50Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Fortunately the CL evaluation model is more straight-forward. :) 2015-10-30T05:39:22Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T05:39:27Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:39:30Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:39:40Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:40:31Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:42:02Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:45:38Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:54:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-30T05:58:25Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-30T06:00:20Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-30T06:01:23Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:03:43Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:05:12Z flip214: Zhivago: I'm curious, how would you define ++var then? 2015-10-30T06:05:46Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:06:03Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:07:31Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:11:31Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:13:34Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:15:47Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:21:35Z pjb: flip214: he's just confusing ++var with var++. In CL we have ++var <=> (incf var). and var++ <=> (prog1 var (incf var)) which becomes inconvenient when var is a place with side effects. 2015-10-30T06:22:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:24:30Z flip214: pjb: thanks. I'd have used (1- (incf var)) ;) 2015-10-30T06:25:06Z pjb: Yes, it's also possible. 2015-10-30T06:25:27Z pjb: And a good compiler might even generate the most efficient code in either case. 2015-10-30T06:25:55Z wolf_mozart quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:26:46Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:27:57Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:30:06Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:31:19Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:33:37Z aap__ is now known as aap 2015-10-30T06:33:50Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:35:17Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:36:12Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:38:27Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:41:24Z _sjs joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:41:39Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-30T06:43:23Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:46:39Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:51:41Z ajf-: a random list that sums 12 ? ideas? I'm only coming up with (let (... ) ... gigantic things 2015-10-30T06:52:39Z Bike: how long is the list 2015-10-30T06:52:47Z Bike: what's the distribution 2015-10-30T06:52:48Z Bike: etc 2015-10-30T06:53:25Z ajf-: as long as 12, as small as 1. '(12), '(4 4 4), or '(1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) 2015-10-30T06:53:45Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T06:54:05Z ajf-: (do while (reduce .. (random ? 2015-10-30T06:54:37Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:54:47Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:55:16Z tsoutseki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T06:55:19Z Bike: Are they all the same number? 2015-10-30T06:55:24Z ajf-: no 2015-10-30T06:55:35Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:55:47Z ajf-: '(5 4 3) is valid 2015-10-30T06:55:57Z ajf-: f.e. 2015-10-30T06:56:04Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-30T06:57:31Z Zhivago: This is a straight-forward packing problem. 2015-10-30T06:57:55Z Bike: (defun random-list-sum (sum) (loop while (plusp sum) collect (let ((new (random (1+ sum)))) (decf sum new) new))), skew that shit 2015-10-30T06:58:10Z shka: what is the common wisdom on storing function objects in the clos instances in order to skip dynamic dispatch? 2015-10-30T06:58:19Z Zhivago: Start by constructing a list of length one of the numbers 1 through 12. 2015-10-30T06:58:32Z shka: does it even makes senses performance wise? 2015-10-30T06:58:34Z ajf-: amazing Bike thanks 2015-10-30T06:59:10Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-10-30T06:59:12Z Bike: course when you decide this isn't what you wanted you should keep in mind what zhivago's sayin 2015-10-30T06:59:19Z Zhivago: Then consider this as a reduction of the original problem with the sum target reduced by that amount. 2015-10-30T06:59:47Z Zhivago: Recurse until you run out of things to add. 2015-10-30T06:59:58Z pjb: Of course, the only important question was what is the distribution. And as always, it has been conveniently ignored by ajf-. 2015-10-30T06:59:59Z ajf-: Zhivago 2015-10-30T07:00:48Z ajf-: doesn't that make them 2015-10-30T07:00:50Z ajf-: all equal ? 2015-10-30T07:01:05Z Bike: no. he, in fact, described what i did. 2015-10-30T07:01:09Z pjb: (defun random-sum (length sum) (if (= 1 length) (list sum) (let ((first (random sum))) (cons first (random-sum (1- length) (- sum first)))))) #| --> random-sum |# (random-sum 4 12) #| --> (5 1 4 2) |# 2015-10-30T07:01:15Z Zhivago: ajf: It depends on how you measure equality. If you measure equality in terms of the number you sum to ... sure. 2015-10-30T07:01:30Z pjb: ajf-: this is probably what you aimed at, but the distribution is "wrong". 2015-10-30T07:02:30Z Zhivago: ajf: Once you understand that given the list (5) you can can concatenate it with each list of numbers that sums to 7, the problem should become trivial. 2015-10-30T07:02:31Z ajf-: pjb yes indeed 2015-10-30T07:02:37Z pjb: (random-sum (random 20) 12) #| --> (2 9 0 0 0 1) |# 2015-10-30T07:02:55Z ajf-: this is much more usable you read my mind thanks 2015-10-30T07:03:05Z ajf-: didn't specify that before he 2015-10-30T07:03:07Z pjb: There's even more than one wrongness to this distribution. 2015-10-30T07:04:15Z ajf-: what do you mean wrong 2015-10-30T07:04:21Z ajf-: what do you mean distribution 2015-10-30T07:04:34Z ajf-: you're talking about randomness ? 2015-10-30T07:04:39Z pjb: ajf-: Yes. 2015-10-30T07:04:55Z ajf-: i would love to have a normal distribution or even true random numbers 2015-10-30T07:05:04Z ajf-: but well 2015-10-30T07:05:06Z ajf-: this works though a lot 2015-10-30T07:05:22Z pjb: And since you've not specified a bound to the length of the lists… 2015-10-30T07:05:49Z Zhivago: The upper bound is 12. 2015-10-30T07:05:50Z Bike: "a normal distribution or even true random numbers" is not really a coherent way of thinking about things. questions about randomness are impossible to answer without understanding the distributions involved, which leaves us guessing as to what you have in mind. 2015-10-30T07:05:59Z pjb: Zhivago: obviously not. 2015-10-30T07:06:11Z pjb: (random-sum 20 12) #| --> (11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1) |# 2015-10-30T07:06:25Z Zhivago: He specified a lower value bound of 1. 2015-10-30T07:06:39Z meiji11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T07:06:53Z pjb: Ok, later. 2015-10-30T07:08:11Z pjb: So we have a finite population that you can enumerate and choose one element at random with a uniform distribution. 2015-10-30T07:08:18Z ajf-: no just setting some parameters globally 2015-10-30T07:08:23Z ajf-: which I intend to control through a seed 2015-10-30T07:10:19Z tralala joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:12:35Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:12:56Z ajf-: how about randomising the interval instead 2015-10-30T07:13:12Z ajf-: or what? should the entire list be randomised 2015-10-30T07:13:51Z ajf-: the first number kind of determines what the length of the list will be 2015-10-30T07:14:00Z ajf-: so, choose another ? 2015-10-30T07:14:15Z ajf-: if the length is 12, the list is obviously going to be just ones 2015-10-30T07:14:34Z ajf-: so for each length there's a subset of numbers to choose from 2015-10-30T07:14:45Z ajf-: and then we can randomise just the order 2015-10-30T07:15:10Z ajf-: any ideas what that set is ? 2015-10-30T07:16:25Z pjb: ajf-: for example, for 3, you'd have the following lists to choose from ((3) (2 1) (1 2) (1 1 1)), so (elt '((3) (2 1) (1 2) (1 1 1)) (random 4)) #| --> (1 2) |# 2015-10-30T07:16:29Z ajf-: it's some sort of permutation determined by 12 and (- 12 k ) where k is the number 2015-10-30T07:16:53Z ajf-: that's it 2015-10-30T07:16:56Z pjb: The thing is that each list has 1/4 probability of being choosen. 2015-10-30T07:17:07Z ajf-: so a loop maybe maximising this product 2015-10-30T07:17:20Z ajf-: ah well, no it seems it doesn't 2015-10-30T07:17:59Z ajf-: you can chose (2 1) but the randomness comes from choosing (3 2 1) or (2 1 3) or (1 2 3) at the end 2015-10-30T07:18:25Z pjb: my example was for 3, not for 6. 2015-10-30T07:18:36Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T07:19:03Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T07:19:23Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T07:19:29Z ajf-: uhm end - end(n-1) 2015-10-30T07:21:02Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T07:22:45Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:23:09Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:23:32Z pjb: (defun all-sums (n) (if (zerop n) '(()) (loop for i from 1 to n append (mapcar (lambda (sub) (cons i sub)) (all-sums (- n i)))))) (defun random-sum (n) (let ((sums (all-sums n))) (elt sums (random (length sums))))) (random-sum 12) #| --> (1 2 3 1 3 1 1) |# 2015-10-30T07:24:40Z pjb: notice: (length (all-sums 12)) #| --> 2048 |# 2015-10-30T07:24:47Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T07:25:07Z pjb: so each result of (random-sum 12) has a probability of 1/2048. 2015-10-30T07:25:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:29:15Z ajf-: this works 2015-10-30T07:29:45Z ajf-: i can add a length modificator later 2015-10-30T07:29:46Z ajf-: thank you 2015-10-30T07:32:37Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:35:16Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:35:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:35:42Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-30T07:35:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T07:37:55Z ajf-: (defun rnd-base(top n) (let ((sums (remove-if-not #'(lambda (x) (eql (length x) n)) (all-sums top)))) (elt sums (random (length 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2015-10-30T12:25:12Z Gu_______ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:25:19Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:25:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:25:31Z Gu_______ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-30T12:26:42Z anthracite joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:28:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:30:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:32:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:32:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:34:29Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T12:35:16Z ryu0: could someone recommend a good implementation to use for learning CL? 2015-10-30T12:35:55Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:36:07Z Shinmera: Pretty much any will do. 2015-10-30T12:36:47Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:38:05Z Shinmera: SBCL and CCL are the most frequently recommended free implementations. 2015-10-30T12:38:14Z scymtym_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T12:38:15Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T12:38:45Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:38:59Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:39:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:39:46Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:40:45Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:40:56Z agumonkey quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T12:41:22Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:42:00Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:42:43Z ghking joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:44:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:45:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:45:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-10-30T12:45:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:47:49Z ghking quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:48:33Z ryu0: hm. 2015-10-30T12:48:55Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:49:39Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T12:49:40Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:51:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T12:54:19Z papachan: ryu0: you want to know a kind of case of use? 2015-10-30T12:55:01Z ryu0: papachan: sure i guess. 2015-10-30T12:55:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T12:56:09Z papachan: like a project with CL ? ok 2015-10-30T12:56:41Z Shinmera: ryu0: For most cases, when you start out you'll want to confine yourself to standard CL anyway, so any conforming implementation (which all strive to be) should do just fine. 2015-10-30T12:57:17Z ryu0: Shinmera: i see some claim to compile to native code. what exactly does that mean for CL? 2015-10-30T12:57:31Z ryu0: i'm primarily familar with C, so... 2015-10-30T12:57:33Z Shinmera: ryu0: Most implementations compile to native code indeed. 2015-10-30T12:57:49Z Xach: ryu0: the function is converted to assembly code that implements the semantics 2015-10-30T12:58:15Z ryu0: hm. 2015-10-30T12:58:17Z Shinmera: SBCL and CCL do, for instance. ABCL on the other hand compiles to Java bytecode and CLISP to its own bytecode format. 2015-10-30T12:58:20Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-30T12:58:29Z ryu0: is it possible to precompile the entire program source code? 2015-10-30T12:58:34Z ryu0: before running it? 2015-10-30T12:58:43Z Xach: ryu0: it is done interactively and incrementally. it can be done with an individual form or with an entire file. there are ways to manage how groups of files working together can be compiled properly 2015-10-30T12:58:47Z Xach: ryu0: sure. that is the norm. 2015-10-30T12:59:22Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T12:59:37Z ryu0: how does it compare to C? i once tried to write a numerical sequence generator in CL but it was slower than a bunch of C for loops... :/ 2015-10-30T12:59:53Z Shinmera: Compare to C in what regard? 2015-10-30T12:59:55Z ryu0: i'm guessing it's just that I don't know how to use CL effectively. 2015-10-30T12:59:57Z ryu0: speed. 2015-10-30T13:00:24Z Xach: ryu0: Getting CL that approaches C in speed often requires careful writing and implementation-specific knowledge. 2015-10-30T13:00:32Z ryu0: ah. 2015-10-30T13:00:35Z papachan: ryu0: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ 2015-10-30T13:00:44Z Xach: ryu0: like, if you are using sbcl, it helps to know that sbcl does modular arithmetic. so you can write semantically portable CL that is especially fast in SBCL. 2015-10-30T13:00:53Z Shinmera: SBCL generates pretty fast code from the get-go though. 2015-10-30T13:01:29Z Xach: with lispworks, there are in32 (and int64, i think) functions that perform modular arithmetic on 32 and 64 bit integers 2015-10-30T13:01:42Z ryu0: modular arithmetic... hm. 2015-10-30T13:02:04Z dwchandler: ryu0: for most programs, something like sbcl will be quite fast. for intensive bit twiddling, data shuffling, etc., C is going to be faster 2015-10-30T13:02:17Z ryu0: huh. 2015-10-30T13:02:37Z ryu0: Would it be safe to say modular arithmetic is similar to how C integers roll over? 2015-10-30T13:02:47Z dwchandler: but as mentioned, there are ways to get close to C. just that for most apps CL will be fast anyway 2015-10-30T13:03:06Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:03:35Z ryu0: dwchandler: i was hoping CL would be a good dynamic language that doesn't sacrifice too much performance... 2015-10-30T13:03:48Z ryu0: it had been my impression that interpreted languages tend to be much slower. 2015-10-30T13:04:14Z Shinmera braces for another semantics argument about what "interpreted" means 2015-10-30T13:04:30Z ryu0: sorry. :/ 2015-10-30T13:05:35Z Shinmera: Generally CL encourages the idea of rapid prototyping. You have a problem you want to solve, and get an initial working prototype fast so you have your problem solved. Then you can spend the rest of your time optimising and cleaning it up and all that. 2015-10-30T13:06:01Z ggole: ryu0: make sure to ask the compiler for optimized code 2015-10-30T13:06:22Z Shinmera: So it tries to push you to first solve your problem on a higher level without having to worry about speed and all that cruft, but doesn't stop you from making things go fast either. 2015-10-30T13:06:34Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:07:36Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:07:58Z Shinmera: It also offers a large array of inspection and analysis tools to help in getting things to go faster 2015-10-30T13:07:59Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:08:18Z ryu0: sort of like static code analysis for C? 2015-10-30T13:08:28Z Shinmera: Eg DISASSEMBLE will show you the actual machine code instructions for a function 2015-10-30T13:08:41Z Xach: And I like that to make CL faster, you usually write specialized CL, not some other language. 2015-10-30T13:08:49Z ryu0: Interested. 2015-10-30T13:09:07Z ryu0: i don't recall python or perl offered native code compilation... 2015-10-30T13:09:14Z Shinmera: On SBCL you also have things like a built in statistical profiler that you can just run a part of your code under to see what takes up time. 2015-10-30T13:09:16Z ryu0: offering* 2015-10-30T13:09:38Z p_l: ryu0: DISASSEMBLE is probably one of the best things to someone interested in optimization, because you can interactively see what kind of code is generated 2015-10-30T13:09:39Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T13:09:44Z ryu0: ah, yes. i recall that feature but in the context of GCC. 2015-10-30T13:09:52Z ryu0: profiling that is. 2015-10-30T13:10:33Z p_l: ryu0: also, you have different optimization levels specified in CL implementations, and some will output extra warnings about "slow due to ..." when you select higher optimization level 2015-10-30T13:10:59Z Shinmera: Personally I enjoy the interactive development aspect the most. I can try out functions right away and if a failure occurs I get a debugger that lets me fix the problem, recompile the one faulty function and just continue or retry as appropriate without having to recompile everything, restore the program state somehow, and then reproduce the issue again. 2015-10-30T13:11:03Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:11:09Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:11:11Z Shinmera: It cuts down massively on the amount of time needed to fix issues in your code. 2015-10-30T13:11:12Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:12:10Z ryu0: does CL support any kind of explicit typing? 2015-10-30T13:12:53Z ryu0: such as, machine integers for loop counters? 2015-10-30T13:12:55Z p_l: ryu0: yes, it's actually how a lot of optimization is done - by ensuring you have the right types 2015-10-30T13:12:57Z Shinmera: You can declare types, but that's an optimization strategy 2015-10-30T13:13:31Z eudoxia: types also help with errors 2015-10-30T13:13:44Z p_l: ryu0: depending on use case, typing is either a safety/correctness thing, or speed thing - like when using (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3)) declaration 2015-10-30T13:13:45Z eudoxia: e.g. SBCL has dynamic type inference, and with type declarations, can find plenty of errors 2015-10-30T13:14:20Z ryu0: what does safety mean in the context of CL optimization? 2015-10-30T13:14:38Z eudoxia: safety 0 = no run-time type checks 2015-10-30T13:14:41Z ryu0: i'm used to thinking of type or memory safety. 2015-10-30T13:14:47Z Shinmera: That the compiler inserts checks to make sure it doesn't crash. 2015-10-30T13:14:48Z eudoxia: (at least in SBCL) 2015-10-30T13:15:02Z p_l: ryu0: normally, declaring types of arguments will give you assertions on the types etc. 2015-10-30T13:15:11Z p_l: with (safety 0) all kinds of checks are removed 2015-10-30T13:15:11Z ryu0: ah. 2015-10-30T13:15:30Z ryu0: i assume this only safe so long as it is used correctly? 2015-10-30T13:15:30Z p_l: so if you somehow give wrong type... well, it will do unexpected things 2015-10-30T13:15:34Z p_l: yes 2015-10-30T13:15:42Z ryu0: so, same type of safety as C... 2015-10-30T13:15:46Z ryu0: when using void * it sounds like. 2015-10-30T13:15:55Z ryu0: as in, none at all. 2015-10-30T13:16:00Z p_l: the good part of CL is that you can start with default safety then lower it on well-tested and optimized parts 2015-10-30T13:16:02Z farhaven joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:16:08Z p_l: unlike in C 2015-10-30T13:16:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:16:32Z eudoxia: when you declare types and have tests you can safely bring the safety down to 0 2015-10-30T13:17:00Z ggole: Type declarations don't (portably) provide that kind of safety. 2015-10-30T13:17:22Z Shinmera: type declarations are a hint or even promise to the compiler that it will be of this type. 2015-10-30T13:17:29Z ryu0: i've heard CL supports OOP. i assume it supports things like visibility controls? 2015-10-30T13:17:48Z eudoxia: that's done in the module (called package) system 2015-10-30T13:18:02Z dlowe: check-type calls are usually as good as type declarations for compilation 2015-10-30T13:18:12Z dlowe: and throw an error if you pass in the wrong type 2015-10-30T13:18:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:18:16Z p_l: ryu0: visibility controls are one thing that CL Object System doesn't care about tbh 2015-10-30T13:18:32Z ryu0: that means there's no such thing as private and protected? 2015-10-30T13:18:35Z ryu0: just public? 2015-10-30T13:18:45Z eudoxia: there is, it's just not handled by the OOP part 2015-10-30T13:18:50Z ryu0: oh. 2015-10-30T13:19:07Z eudoxia: each package has its functions, classes, methods, etc., and you decide which are to be public 2015-10-30T13:19:14Z eudoxia: the rest are internal 2015-10-30T13:19:23Z p_l: ryu0: in terms of classes, yes, but in practice it doesn't matter, because CLOS promotes interface-oriented design (often interfaces are referred to as "protocols") 2015-10-30T13:19:27Z ryu0: that's good... 2015-10-30T13:19:39Z p_l: and yes, packages have exported "public" set of symbols and internal symbols 2015-10-30T13:19:41Z dlowe: you can still get to them, though 2015-10-30T13:19:49Z dlowe: you just have to ask nicely 2015-10-30T13:19:52Z Shinmera: Anything that isn't lexically bound can be accessed through more or fewer hoops. 2015-10-30T13:19:55Z dlowe: occasionally it's necessary 2015-10-30T13:20:19Z eudoxia: sometimes a developer forgets to export something, sometimes you want to do reflection, that's when it's useful 2015-10-30T13:20:33Z eudoxia: (to access internal things) 2015-10-30T13:20:34Z Shinmera: Sometimes the developer did a stupid thing and you need to fix it. 2015-10-30T13:20:46Z p_l: sometimes you are experimenting :) 2015-10-30T13:21:26Z dlowe: sometimes you are writing test code in another package and want to dig into the implementation 2015-10-30T13:21:38Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:21:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:22:19Z ryu0: now, i have a different sort of question. i've worked with lisp-like syntax in the past, first time being with sawfish's repl. i was also thinking to use CL as a way to help me with learning mathematics. it feels easier to relate to than C, tbh. 2015-10-30T13:22:26Z ryu0: so, is it? 2015-10-30T13:22:59Z ryu0: i have plenty i still want to learn. XD 2015-10-30T13:23:04Z Shinmera: CL has support for complex numbers, rationals, and bignums 2015-10-30T13:23:14Z Shinmera: So it's pretty neat for all sorts of mathematical computations. 2015-10-30T13:23:15Z eudoxia: what do you mean, learning mathematics? do you want to e.g. implement a computer algebra system 2015-10-30T13:23:36Z ryu0: nah. i meant to help me with... 2015-10-30T13:23:45Z ryu0: testing my answers, implementing math algorithms, etc. 2015-10-30T13:24:03Z kp666 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T13:24:24Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2015-10-30T13:25:10Z kp666 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:25:48Z ziocroc2 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:26:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:26:22Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:26:27Z ziocroc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:26:46Z eudoxia: i do that sometimes 2015-10-30T13:27:02Z ryu0: i figured it would be easier than writing a C program. 2015-10-30T13:27:06Z eudoxia: because wolframalpha is sloooooooooooooow and sometimes i just want to calculate e.g. the number of permutations in something 2015-10-30T13:27:09Z eudoxia: i'd say go for it 2015-10-30T13:27:39Z Shinmera: minion: tell ryu0 about pcl 2015-10-30T13:27:39Z minion: ryu0: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-10-30T13:28:04Z Shinmera: ^This is the default recommendation for a CL primer book for people who already know how to program to a fair extent. 2015-10-30T13:28:11Z eudoxia: ryu0: btw, check out the PAIP book, there's a neat chapter on implementing symbolic differentiation/integration in common lisp 2015-10-30T13:28:25Z dytrivedi joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:28:31Z ryu0: Shinmera: i've started with another book, but i'll be sure to use this one too. 2015-10-30T13:28:34Z Shinmera: It doesn't deal with maths so much, but has lots of neat little practical projects to explore what you can do with it. 2015-10-30T13:28:49Z ryu0: i wanted a beginners introduction since CL is unlike what i'm familiar with, syntax wise. 2015-10-30T13:29:01Z Shinmera: PCL should be just fine. 2015-10-30T13:29:08Z ryu0: ah. 2015-10-30T13:29:15Z p_l: PCL is probably best introduction to someone who programmed before 2015-10-30T13:29:24Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:29:29Z Shinmera: It doesn't require lisp knowledge at all, just general programming knowledge. 2015-10-30T13:29:36Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:29:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:30:18Z dwchandler: ryu0: what book have you already started? 2015-10-30T13:30:21Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:30:22Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T13:30:42Z ryu0: http://store.doverpublications.com/0486498204.html 2015-10-30T13:31:19Z ryu0: i start chapter 3 soon. 2015-10-30T13:31:27Z eudoxia: i recommend it, but some parts feel rather dated 2015-10-30T13:31:29Z dwchandler: ok, that's a fine book 2015-10-30T13:31:37Z Shinmera: Gentle is fine. 2015-10-30T13:31:53Z ryu0: i was thinking it would be a good start. 2015-10-30T13:32:00Z ryu0: then i can use a more advanced book. 2015-10-30T13:32:35Z ryu0: i actually learned C by reading the ANSI C book then applying it as i saw fit, but i want to try things differently this time. 2015-10-30T13:32:54Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:34:23Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:34:36Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:35:36Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:37:06Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:37:46Z Uptime quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T13:39:15Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:42:52Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:46:09Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:46:10Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-30T13:46:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:47:04Z ghking joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:47:48Z sjl_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T13:47:51Z Xach: it can help to read code 2015-10-30T13:47:59Z Xach: there is a lot out there 2015-10-30T13:48:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:49:21Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T13:49:39Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-30T13:51:22Z Uptime joined #lisp 2015-10-30T13:55:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T13:55:39Z hrs quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-30T13:57:09Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:04:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T14:05:39Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:07:15Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:07:21Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:08:30Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:08:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:11:50Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:14:46Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:16:04Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:17:58Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:18:10Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:19:30Z newcup: eudoxia: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ is very nice, thank you very much! 2015-10-30T14:19:39Z eudoxia: hey thanks 2015-10-30T14:20:30Z tsoutseki: eudoxia, is this your real name? 2015-10-30T14:22:42Z eudoxia: no 2015-10-30T14:23:02Z eudoxia: it is a real name, but not my name 2015-10-30T14:26:22Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:28:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:29:45Z nyef: eudoxia: "From NaN, 0NaN to NaN, 0NaN, a total of 882 repos were created"? 2015-10-30T14:29:55Z eudoxia: aaaaaaaa 2015-10-30T14:30:05Z nyef: Chart starts at 1969-12-31. 2015-10-30T14:30:07Z eudoxia: that's what i get for javascripting 2015-10-30T14:30:28Z nyef: ... And every vertical line is captioned the same. 2015-10-30T14:30:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:32:46Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:34:34Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T14:35:34Z dytrivedi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:36:48Z agumonkey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T14:36:48Z agumonkey_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:36:50Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T14:37:06Z agumonkey_ is now known as agumonkey 2015-10-30T14:37:42Z newcup: oh, I didn't even notice as I had javascript blocked (except eudoxia.me which was required to see any content) 2015-10-30T14:38:13Z kp666 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T14:39:49Z newcup: but anyway, I was trying to google for machine learning libraries for lisp, but couldn't really figure out at a glance which libs were good. this article came as a godsend 2015-10-30T14:40:42Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:40:42Z Draz quit (Changing host) 2015-10-30T14:40:42Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:40:50Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:41:00Z agumonkey quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-30T14:41:36Z Shinmera: There's also http://www.cliki.net/current%20recommended%20libraries 2015-10-30T14:42:12Z jlarocco_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T14:42:30Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:42:42Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:43:26Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T14:44:28Z lisp594 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:44:39Z reb` joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:45:48Z newcup: true. that wiki page could use an update, as it doesn't mention the machine learning libraries, or e.g. qtools and other newer stuff 2015-10-30T14:46:53Z Shinmera: As was recently discussed here, cliki could really use a vast overhaul or complete replacement. 2015-10-30T14:48:48Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:49:46Z agumonkey quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T14:50:56Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:51:54Z nyef: Wasn't cliki already rewritten once? 2015-10-30T14:53:36Z oGMo: it'd be neat if e.g. quickdocs could generate a cliki-like directory of projects 2015-10-30T14:53:56Z oGMo: actually i suppose it does now 2015-10-30T14:56:25Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-10-30T14:56:25Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:03:28Z agumonkey quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T15:05:36Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:06:41Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:07:16Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:08:07Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:08:52Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:09:11Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:10:17Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:12:35Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:15:15Z tralala quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:16:12Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:16:12Z cadadar_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T15:17:34Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T15:17:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:19:12Z cadadar_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:22:50Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:22:55Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:26:59Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T15:28:51Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:30:24Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T15:30:53Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:31:46Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:32:11Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:32:11Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-10-30T15:34:19Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T15:36:04Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T16:22:18Z Devon joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:22:44Z mnoonan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T16:23:59Z Devon: After using FireBug, Slime feels like bearskins and flint knives, is there a better way? 2015-10-30T16:27:05Z nyef: Devon: There was a presentation a while back to boston-lisp about making a custom emacs mode for lisp integration rather than using slime. 2015-10-30T16:27:21Z nyef: Define what you want, figure out how to implement it, follow through. 2015-10-30T16:28:51Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:31:02Z Devon: Step 0: find out what's available before re-inventing it. 2015-10-30T16:35:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T16:36:13Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: Gone) 2015-10-30T16:36:14Z leafybas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:36:19Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T16:36:32Z nyef: Fair point. 2015-10-30T16:37:36Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:38:59Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:39:05Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T16:39:41Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-30T16:39:52Z ajf- quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T17:15:53Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-30T17:17:08Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:17:38Z wuzzzz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:19:37Z cadadar_ left #lisp 2015-10-30T17:19:58Z nate_c joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:20:20Z wuzzzz: I'm trying to deploy an image that makes use of qt on to a system that doesn't have qt explicitly installed. I'm under the impression that I can take all of the libs in the qt-libs standalone directory and distribute them too, I'm trying to figure out how to make the deployed image look in the current directory when it goes to load the qt-libs lisp system (then the cffi calls will find the libs in the current directory) but its not wo 2015-10-30T17:23:29Z wuzzzz: an easier way to ask my question would be "how do you guys deploy lisp images that make use of qt onto systems that don't have qt installed, and in this case I care about windows" 2015-10-30T17:24:23Z Xach: Devon: sly is like slime, but different. maybe it's closer to firebug than slime? 2015-10-30T17:25:02Z Xach: Devon: other options are the lispworks and allegro guis. I like lispworks, but I don't know if it's closer to firebug either. 2015-10-30T17:27:19Z loadsdow` joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:28:01Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:28:23Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:28:46Z loadsdow`: how do I set a clos unbound slot? if I use (setf (slot-value obj 'x) 1) I get "the slot...is unbound" 2015-10-30T17:30:25Z Xach: loadsdow`: that is what you do. can you post more context to e.g. paste.lisp.org? something odd is going on. 2015-10-30T17:30:42Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:34:51Z wuzzzz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:36:59Z megid0 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:38:37Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T17:39:40Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:40:21Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:40:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:43:32Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:44:47Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:44:51Z askatasuna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T17:45:37Z algae joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:46:05Z loadsdow`: @Xach it was a bug on my part 2015-10-30T17:46:25Z Xach: loadsdow`: ok 2015-10-30T17:46:30Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:46:34Z loadsdow`: thanks 2015-10-30T17:48:35Z grees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T17:49:57Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:50:22Z quasus joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:51:35Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:51:43Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:52:22Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T17:53:19Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:53:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: need to go home) 2015-10-30T17:57:04Z kons joined #lisp 2015-10-30T17:57:24Z SlashLife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-30T17:59:43Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:02:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, is (open :if-exists :new-version) different from :rename in SBCL on Linux? 2015-10-30T18:02:54Z Shinmera: Oh hey I was gonna answer wuzzzz but I guess people are impatient. 2015-10-30T18:03:09Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:03:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it's not supported. 2015-10-30T18:03:18Z Shinmera: For posterity: The answer is to use Qtools' deployment facility and to stop worrying. 2015-10-30T18:03:31Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:03:39Z Shinmera: Add options to your system like in here https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L26 2015-10-30T18:03:42Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T18:04:02Z Shinmera: and use (asdf:operate :build-op :system-name) from an SBCL/whatnot instance on the command line and everything will be automatic. 2015-10-30T18:04:05Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I want to say that it is different 2015-10-30T18:04:14Z Shinmera: You'll get a nice bin/ directory that you can just zip up and ship and be done with it. 2015-10-30T18:04:26Z Shinmera: And yes, that works on Windows too. 2015-10-30T18:04:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: The standard seems to indicate that they can be treated the same way 2015-10-30T18:04:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, SBCL complains about :new-version 2015-10-30T18:04:49Z jasom: oh new-version, I was thinking of :supersede 2015-10-30T18:05:14Z fiddlerwoaroof wishes the spec would specify a versioning scheme for systems that don't support it natively 2015-10-30T18:06:33Z jasom: Is :new-version required to work by the spec? It seems ambiguous 2015-10-30T18:07:24Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:07:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think so 2015-10-30T18:08:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm "An implementation is required to recognize all of the open keyword options and to do something reasonable in the context of the host operating system" 2015-10-30T18:08:22Z Xach: it's reasonable to give up sometimes 2015-10-30T18:08:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: SBCL recognizes teh keyword option, but is raising an exception reasonable? 2015-10-30T18:09:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that the standard should specify the fallback for :new-version 2015-10-30T18:09:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, whatever 2015-10-30T18:10:41Z earl-ducaine quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:14:03Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:14:09Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T18:15:33Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:21:56Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:22:44Z tsoutseki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T18:23:14Z loadsdow` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:23:42Z solyd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:23:47Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:32:46Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:35:30Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:35:39Z solyd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:37:41Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T18:40:24Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:47:32Z diginet joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:48:38Z ziocroc2 quit (Quit: ziocroc2) 2015-10-30T18:49:03Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:51:44Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-30T18:53:29Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-30T18:59:08Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Now of course, if you use emacs/slime it just doesn't matter that much, since then you will use sldb instead of the CL implementation debugger. have a look at: http://cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 2015-10-30T20:06:53Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-30T20:07:43Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:07:48Z sdothum joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:10:06Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T20:12:29Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-30T20:15:42Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-30T20:15:55Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:16:18Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:16:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:16:49Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T20:20:37Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-30T20:21:22Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:21:40Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T20:22:48Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:24:11Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T20:25:42Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T20:29:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T20:30:44Z blt joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:32:22Z blt left #lisp 2015-10-30T20:32:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:33:07Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-30T20:35:51Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T20:38:50Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:38:51Z leafybasil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T20:39:09Z pjb: ryu0: C compares very badly to lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157870 2015-10-30T20:39:23Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:40:31Z badkins quit 2015-10-30T20:41:05Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:41:22Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:41:58Z ajf-: my lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157871 2015-10-30T20:42:00Z ajf-: how does it look ? 2015-10-30T20:42:47Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T20:43:25Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-30T20:43:43Z Bicyclidine: Disparate 2015-10-30T20:43:43Z snv quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-30T20:44:04Z phoe_krk: pjb: is it because C has no natural bignums? 2015-10-30T20:45:15Z ajf-: yeah I have more lispy syntax now thought 2015-10-30T20:45:19Z ajf-: *though 2015-10-30T20:45:23Z Xach: ajf-: there is a lot of vertical whitespace. you can use CASE instead of (or (= n ...) (= n ...)). 2015-10-30T20:45:49Z shka: phoe_krk: yup, overflow 2015-10-30T20:46:05Z andreh joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:46:25Z mordocai: X-post from #lispgames: Anyone here using sly/slynk instead of slime/swank? I'm thinking about switching. Curious as to any problems you've encountered. 2015-10-30T20:46:38Z andreh is now known as euandreh_ 2015-10-30T20:46:56Z shka: phoe_krk: but actually stack overflow 2015-10-30T20:46:56Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:47:13Z shka: probabbly 2015-10-30T20:47:20Z phoe_krk: ajf-: music in lisp, I was always fascinated by the idea 2015-10-30T20:47:47Z ajf-: yeah phoe_krk 2015-10-30T20:47:53Z ajf-: it's a match 2015-10-30T20:48:01Z phoe_krk lights the match 2015-10-30T20:48:33Z shka: at least i think that you will run out of stack before actually overflowing integer 2015-10-30T20:48:47Z shka: but no idea why it returned 0 2015-10-30T20:49:52Z shka: pjb: am i right? 2015-10-30T20:50:26Z Bicyclidine: why would you overflow stack on a factorial of 42? 42 stack frames is bupkis. 2015-10-30T20:51:19Z Bicyclidine: as for why it's zero, maybe it's because the low bits of 42! are all zero? i hope so, that would be neat 2015-10-30T20:51:45Z shka: Bicyclidine: hmmm, you are right 2015-10-30T20:51:48Z ozihcs quit (Quit: q) 2015-10-30T20:51:57Z shka: and i should go to sleep 2015-10-30T20:52:06Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:52:09Z otjura joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:53:16Z Bicyclidine: low 39 bits are zero, so that would only make sense on a 32 bit machine. 2015-10-30T20:53:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:54:14Z shka: Bicyclidine: but it is int 2015-10-30T20:54:16Z shka: not long long 2015-10-30T20:54:54Z znpy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-30T20:55:03Z Bicyclidine: i didn't see the code. 2015-10-30T20:55:23Z shka: return((0==x)?1:(x*(fact(x-1)))); 2015-10-30T20:55:35Z Bicyclidine: i mean, the types. 2015-10-30T20:55:45Z shka: int fact(int x){ 2015-10-30T20:55:57Z Bicyclidine: oh, signed. it's just undefined then. 2015-10-30T20:56:16Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T20:56:30Z pjb: phoe_krk: C int are not integers. 2015-10-30T20:56:49Z phoe_krk: pjb: they're a subset of all possible integers. 2015-10-30T20:56:52Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:56:54Z pjb: Nope. 2015-10-30T20:57:02Z phoe_krk: ? 2015-10-30T20:57:37Z pjb: They are Z/2^32. 2015-10-30T20:57:56Z phoe_krk: Oh, right. Was what I meant. 2015-10-30T20:57:59Z Bicyclidine: and if they're signed they're Z/2^32 + undefined! yay 2015-10-30T20:59:04Z pjb: They're "fast": you can get wrong results very fast. 2015-10-30T20:59:25Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T20:59:42Z shka: well, I may be a devil advocate here 2015-10-30T21:00:29Z shka: but there are cases where this is what you need 2015-10-30T21:00:40Z pjb: It's just an example, there are library rows full of books about how wrong C is. (and full libraries about how C++ is wrong). 2015-10-30T21:00:59Z mordocai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T21:01:00Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-10-30T21:01:13Z ajf-: phoe_krk http://imgur.com/yRvCtTK 2015-10-30T21:01:15Z ajf-: that's how it looks 2015-10-30T21:01:30Z pjb: shka: yes. When you want to destroy expensive hardware or introduce "security bugs", C is perfect. 2015-10-30T21:02:10Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:02:28Z shka: pjb: well, integer overflows manager to destroy space rocket, render patriot missle launcher useless and crash any airplane 2015-10-30T21:02:29Z dwchandler: pjb: yeah, leathermans are cool and useful, but there's a time and place for bandsaws with no guards ;-) 2015-10-30T21:02:44Z shka: so yeah, i see what you are refering to 2015-10-30T21:03:20Z shka: but problem with C is not lack of numeric tower 2015-10-30T21:03:51Z shka: ajf-: you renderd this with code? 2015-10-30T21:04:09Z shka: ajf-: or just composed? 2015-10-30T21:04:20Z ajf-: wrote it on lisp 2015-10-30T21:04:31Z ajf-: i've been making everyone mad here for some weeks 2015-10-30T21:05:15Z shka: ajf-: oh, but you got nice results! :) 2015-10-30T21:05:32Z euandreh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T21:06:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:09:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:12:05Z anthracite joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:12:13Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T21:12:18Z anthracite quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T21:12:39Z shka joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:12:47Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:14:38Z lisse_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:15:05Z lisse_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-30T21:15:07Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:15:39Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:16:28Z lisse_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:17:28Z shka: ajf-: so, what is next? 2015-10-30T21:17:47Z ajf-: relax 2015-10-30T21:17:48Z ajf-: read pcl 2015-10-30T21:17:51Z lisse quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:18:03Z ajf-: mm i'll keep working on this 2015-10-30T21:18:11Z ajf-: but the goal was to send something for today 2015-10-30T21:18:17Z ajf-: except for that, i liked lisp 2015-10-30T21:18:25Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:18:31Z ajf-: it's like being on a text file that thinks 2015-10-30T21:21:25Z ajf-: i do need to make this better it's crap 2015-10-30T21:22:05Z shka: ajf-: don't worry, you are doing fine :) 2015-10-30T21:22:07Z shka: you are learning 2015-10-30T21:22:36Z ajf-: when people ask me if I do TDD i say no I do EDD, "error" driven development 2015-10-30T21:22:37Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T21:23:22Z shka: i'm pertty sure there is a better name for that 2015-10-30T21:23:40Z shka: perhaps you can substitute error with experiment 2015-10-30T21:23:45Z shka: ;-) 2015-10-30T21:24:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:26:06Z shka: ajf-: you are not a programmer by trade, right? 2015-10-30T21:26:16Z ajf-: yes, i am 2015-10-30T21:26:26Z ajf-: also by trade and not by study 2015-10-30T21:26:39Z shka: ok 2015-10-30T21:26:51Z ajf-: trust me im an engineer 2015-10-30T21:27:38Z shka: that's good since i'm not 2015-10-30T21:27:41Z shka: ;-) 2015-10-30T21:29:14Z shka: ajf-: well i bet your project is fun, so keep it up! 2015-10-30T21:32:23Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T21:32:37Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:32:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:35:33Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-30T21:36:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:38:12Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:38:39Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:40:06Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-30T21:41:56Z phoe_krk: ajf-: what libs are you using for that? 2015-10-30T21:43:07Z ajf-: no im using a propiertary software called opusmodus 2015-10-30T21:43:21Z ajf-: but there's a to-musicxml function there obviously 2015-10-30T21:43:30Z ajf-: so it's not that far away from actually using musicxml 2015-10-30T21:43:41Z ajf-: which I did with python before 2015-10-30T21:43:49Z ajf-: and js + python 2015-10-30T21:43:51Z ajf-: too slow 2015-10-30T21:44:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:44:47Z phoe_krk: I wonder if I can hook lisp through midi into Apple's Logic Studio 2015-10-30T21:45:11Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T21:48:05Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:48:14Z ajf-: uh 2015-10-30T21:48:29Z ajf-: yes 2015-10-30T21:53:35Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:54:07Z lispyon__ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T21:54:19Z nyef: Hooking lisp into a MIDI chain should definitely be possible. Using some specific library or toolkit may be trickier. 2015-10-30T21:55:46Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-30T22:01:30Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:02:02Z phoe_krk: nyef: no specific way here, I'd just like Lisp to act as a source of MIDI input. 2015-10-30T22:03:11Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-30T22:03:44Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:05:12Z oGMo: there's also OSC 2015-10-30T22:05:55Z oGMo: (if that's still a thing, but presumably all the software still works) 2015-10-30T22:06:09Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:10:57Z lisse_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-30T22:12:36Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:12:49Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:13:02Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T22:13:49Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:14:19Z bege quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-30T22:15:46Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:16:00Z lispyon__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T22:16:19Z nyef: Well, two approaches that I can think of off-the-cuff, as it were, even without further libraries, would be that MIDI is essentially a serial protocol, so a suitably-configured UART could be hacked up... And user-mode USB drivers can definitely be done in Lisp. 2015-10-30T22:16:54Z nyef: And, as I said, that's completely aside from any existing driver and interface library framework. 2015-10-30T22:17:17Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-30T22:22:03Z bege joined #lisp 2015-10-30T22:23:25Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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am i even conceptualizing that right? 2015-10-30T23:32:49Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/cl-alsa wow. 2015-10-30T23:33:06Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:33:41Z Bike: there's some in mixalot, guess that works 2015-10-30T23:33:48Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:35:07Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-30T23:37:32Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-30T23:39:50Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:40:46Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-30T23:42:11Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-30T23:43:27Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-30T23:44:52Z killmaster joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:44:58Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-30T23:45:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:51:29Z jurov joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:54:45Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:54:48Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:55:38Z jurov: hi all, can anyone answer a newb question - how to load a system into REPL? 2015-10-30T23:56:04Z Xach: jurov: what do you mean by "system" in this context? 2015-10-30T23:56:05Z jurov: i want to experiment with cliki2 but it's in multiple .lisp files which are dependent on each other 2015-10-30T23:56:13Z Bike: (ql:quickload :system-name), usually. if you haven't installed quicklisp, check beta.quicklisp.org. 2015-10-30T23:56:24Z Xach: jurov: is there a cliki2.asd? 2015-10-30T23:56:35Z jurov: yes asd is there 2015-10-30T23:57:02Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:57:03Z Xach: jurov: one way is to put the entire project in a place that asdf knows about and then use (asdf:load-system "cliki2") 2015-10-30T23:57:20Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:57:21Z jurov: i want to use my local development version not the one from quicklisp 2015-10-30T23:57:32Z jurov: okay, will do that, thanks 2015-10-30T23:57:40Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-10-30T23:57:41Z pjb: newcup: midi is almost as old as lisp, you can count on it being still present (just as lisp) when you're ready to use it. 2015-10-30T23:58:05Z Xach: jurov: quickload can load any asdf system, not just quicklisp systems, with the bonus that it will automatically install missing dependencies. 2015-10-30T23:58:17Z Xach: if those dependencies are available through quicklisp, anyway. 2015-10-30T23:58:58Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-30T23:59:26Z pjb: So either put your local branch in ~/quicklisp/local-projects or configure asdf to find your sources. 2015-10-31T00:00:49Z Uptime is now known as skullgreymon 2015-10-31T00:02:03Z skullgreymon is now known as SkullGreymon 2015-10-31T00:04:49Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T00:05:17Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:05:45Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:06:37Z ryu0: pjb: haha. no duh. 42! is too big for fixed width integers to hold. 2015-10-31T00:06:40Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:06:54Z earl-ducaine quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T00:07:10Z pjb: ryu0: there's more to it than just this fact. 2015-10-31T00:07:14Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:07:19Z ryu0: oh? 2015-10-31T00:07:39Z ryu0: like how recursive C functions can cause stack overflow? 2015-10-31T00:07:59Z pjb: lisp too, it wasn't the point. 42 is small enough. 2015-10-31T00:08:09Z pjb: The point is that the C program is much faster than the lisp program. 2015-10-31T00:08:13Z pjb: To give the wrong result. 2015-10-31T00:08:39Z pjb: But once you want to get the right result, you will have to spend a lot of time on the C program (use a bignum library, check for errors, etc). 2015-10-31T00:08:40Z ryu0: no surprise. C programs have be carefully written. 2015-10-31T00:08:51Z pjb: They have to be written slowly. 2015-10-31T00:09:00Z ryu0: that much i have learned. 2015-10-31T00:09:04Z pjb: check http://cliki.net/Performance 2015-10-31T00:09:58Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:10:03Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:10:57Z ryu0: pjb: oh, yea. i also recall how certain things seem next to impossible to check from plain C. integer overflow for example. iirc, you need ASM to check cpu flags. 2015-10-31T00:11:24Z pjb: ryu0: the thing is that C really, is not much more than a portable assembler. It is revendicated that basically a single C instruction correspond, if not to a single assembler instruction, at least to a clear and direct correspondance. 2015-10-31T00:11:28Z ryu0: in some cases it can be checked but... i've never seen a method for multiply. 2015-10-31T00:11:49Z pjb: It is expected and revendicated that int is a machine register. 2015-10-31T00:11:54Z bb010g quit 2015-10-31T00:12:14Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:12:31Z mordocai: Is there a pre-built case macro that works with strings that I can grab somewhere? Or an easy way to get it to work? I want basically (case (machine-instance) ("my-host" :blah)) for some config. 2015-10-31T00:12:38Z pjb: But on the other hand, people don't use integer_plus, integer_times, they insist on using those registers and +, * which correspond directly to assembler instructions. Which do not implement anything related to the real world, like arithmetics, or dollars. 2015-10-31T00:12:39Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-10-31T00:12:39Z Bike: CPU isn't a good portable assembler 2015-10-31T00:13:02Z pjb: mordocai: there are libraries with various macros. 2015-10-31T00:13:02Z Bike: mordocai: if you want case to work on strings you might want string-case in quicklisp, or the case alexandria has. cl:case compares by EQL. 2015-10-31T00:13:20Z Bike: er, C isn't. man i'm dumb 2015-10-31T00:13:38Z pjb: mordocai: eg. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:scase 2015-10-31T00:14:06Z ryu0: pjb: are you talking about how arithmetic operations are emulated with binary operators? 2015-10-31T00:14:12Z ryu0: s/binary/bit/ 2015-10-31T00:14:29Z Bike: c operators aren't even the same as the machine operators. tragic imo 2015-10-31T00:14:31Z pjb: Bike: I would agree that it's not a good portable assembler, because it fails a lot at portability, and it fails entirely at having a good macro system, which is not the case of most modern assemblers. 2015-10-31T00:14:43Z ryu0: O_o 2015-10-31T00:14:44Z Bike: mos def on both counts 2015-10-31T00:14:53Z Zhivago: That's because C isn't really anything like a portable assembler -- that basic argument is complete bunk. 2015-10-31T00:15:32Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:15:50Z pjb: ryu0: They're not emulated. int a=1,b=2,c=a+b; is compiled directly to the machine instructions loading the registers and summing the registers. But those instructions don't perform anything closely related to addition. They perform addition modulo 2^(register width). 2015-10-31T00:16:15Z pjb: ryu0: a fact that most C programmers are completely oblivious to. 2015-10-31T00:16:25Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:16:27Z ryu0: what's the difference? the algorithm used? 2015-10-31T00:16:38Z Zhivago: C programs operate in the C Abstract Machine. 2015-10-31T00:16:40Z pjb: the difference is 42!=0 instead of the correct result. 2015-10-31T00:17:03Z ryu0: because the register isn't big enough to hold 42!, no? 2015-10-31T00:17:04Z Zhivago: Claiming that C is a portable assembler when it isn't, and then claiming that it isn't a good portable assembler, is just a big circlejerk. 2015-10-31T00:17:27Z ryu0: iirc, it loses bits as a result... 2015-10-31T00:17:36Z Bike: that's modular arithmetic, yes 2015-10-31T00:17:46Z pjb: ryu0: that's correct. But if you use 256-bit registers, then you only need to compute factorial of 64. 2015-10-31T00:18:03Z ryu0: those exist on x86? 2015-10-31T00:18:13Z ryu0: i thought the limit was 64 bit for individual registers. 2015-10-31T00:18:16Z Zhivago: pjb: signed ints aren't modulo 2^(register width) in C. 2015-10-31T00:18:27Z pjb: This is worse. 2015-10-31T00:18:57Z pjb: ryu0: no, you can build a machine with any register size you want. There's no limit. 2015-10-31T00:19:09Z pjb: (apart of course, that of the resources you're able to control from the universe). 2015-10-31T00:19:20Z Zhivago: Fortunately register size has nothing to do with int size in C. 2015-10-31T00:19:48Z ryu0: and pointer size aren't always linked to it either i've seen... 2015-10-31T00:19:54Z ryu0: X32 ABI anyone? 2015-10-31T00:20:24Z Zhivago: Sure -- which brings back to the point that claiming that C is a portable assembler is just nonsense. 2015-10-31T00:21:21Z newcup: pjb: with e.g. the new fancy electronic wind instrument controllers, I'm a bit afraid midi's bandwidth won't suffice for long. but to get back on topic, luckily midi's slow enough for my simplistic one-byte-at-a-time reader (https://github.com/jnykopp/notewhacker/blob/master/midi.lisp#L418) 2015-10-31T00:21:29Z ryu0: is there somewhere that talks about modular arithmetic? 2015-10-31T00:21:42Z ryu0: all i know of C integers is twos complement... and that's pretty limited. 2015-10-31T00:21:57Z Bike: any good discrete math course, gauss, lotsa places 2015-10-31T00:21:58Z Zhivago: ryu: You know wrong. 2015-10-31T00:22:08Z ryu0: hm? 2015-10-31T00:22:16Z Zhivago: C ints are not required to be 2's complement. 2015-10-31T00:22:25Z ryu0: yes, i recall reading that. 2015-10-31T00:22:25Z pjb: Zhivago: The C standard says: "A ‘‘plain’’ int object has the natural size suggested by the architecture of the execution environment (large enough to contain any value in the range INT_MIN to INT_MAX as defined in the header <limits.h>)." 2015-10-31T00:22:40Z ryu0: but, i've only seen twos complement in use. 2015-10-31T00:22:49Z pjb: Zhivago: What do you think "architecture of the execution environment" means here? 2015-10-31T00:22:57Z Zhivago: pjb: What do you think 'suggested' means? 2015-10-31T00:23:26Z pjb: It means not "has nothing to do". 2015-10-31T00:23:36Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:23:51Z pjb: Zhivago: furthermore, 99% of the C implementations match the suggested size. 2015-10-31T00:24:03Z Zhivago: So you're confusing implementation and specification now? :) 2015-10-31T00:24:10Z earl-ducaine quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T00:24:30Z Zhivago: What 'suggested' means is that you can't go and now claim that ints must map 1:1 to registers in an underlying architecture. 2015-10-31T00:25:20Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:25:24Z pjb: ryu0: any math course taught in school deals with modular arithmetic. 2015-10-31T00:25:27Z Zhivago: ryu: Which is why the guaranteed range of signed char is -127 through 127. :) 2015-10-31T00:25:29Z earl-ducaine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T00:26:19Z Bike: anyway, modular arithmetic is great. did you know that sqrt(1) has four answers mod 2^32 2015-10-31T00:26:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T00:26:49Z ryu0: Zhivago: supported both ones and twos complement? 2015-10-31T00:27:00Z ryu0: supporting* 2015-10-31T00:27:08Z Bike: not "supported", the standard just doesn't say how that aspect of arithmetic has to work 2015-10-31T00:27:18Z ryu0: but in practice... 2015-10-31T00:27:43Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T00:27:45Z pjb: Zhivago: http://stackoverflow.com/a/3040391/2481453 2015-10-31T00:27:49Z ryu0: i haven't read about any other implementation of signed integers. 2015-10-31T00:28:02Z Zhivago: ryu: There are three supported representations for signed integers in C. 2015-10-31T00:28:13Z ryu0: then what's the third? 2015-10-31T00:28:13Z Bike: sign magnitude is the obvious one 2015-10-31T00:28:16Z pjb: Zhivago: notice, the authors of "The C Programming Language" are Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie. 2015-10-31T00:28:25Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:28:26Z Bike: store the magnitude, store whether it's positive or negative, done 2015-10-31T00:28:32Z pjb: Zhivago: of course, you're free to disagree with them but don't bother me with your opinions. 2015-10-31T00:29:13Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:29:24Z Bike: ryu0: if you're interested in this stuff you should grab a copy of _The Art of Computer Programming_ so you can fail to understand it for the rest of your life, like i do 2015-10-31T00:29:30Z Zhivago: pjb: You're confusing "no compulsion to write assembly language" with "is a portable assembler"? 2015-10-31T00:30:05Z pjb: Zhivago: and you're confusing discussion between human beings with mathematical formal system. 2015-10-31T00:30:13Z Zhivago: You could replace C with CL there, and it would remain equally true. 2015-10-31T00:30:20Z pjb: Of course. 2015-10-31T00:30:29Z pjb: But CL is a much better portable assembler. 2015-10-31T00:30:39Z ryu0: Bike: they seem to be arguing the language of the standard when i have yet to see implementations use something other than defacto in some cases. 2015-10-31T00:30:45Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:30:46Z Niac joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:30:48Z Xach: C kibo strikes again 2015-10-31T00:31:10Z pjb: On the other hand, while you cannot do otherwise than to use C as an assumbler, you can build higher level constructs in Lisp, and most users use CL at a much higher level than the portable assembler level. 2015-10-31T00:31:13Z ryu0: are there any modern C implementations using anything but twos complement for signed integers? 2015-10-31T00:31:16Z Bike: ryu0: oh i'm totally bored of this conversation yeah. by "this" i meant modular arithmetic and such. TAOCP is mostly C-free. 2015-10-31T00:31:22Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-31T00:31:24Z pjb: When was the last time you used PROG and SETQ. 2015-10-31T00:31:29Z Bike: ryu0: stuff for weird embedded and/or DSP chips 2015-10-31T00:31:39Z ryu0: ah. 2015-10-31T00:31:47Z Bike: not that those are very standard compliant, but still 2015-10-31T00:32:05Z ryu0: what about byte order? i've only seen big or little endian, but i was reading PDP had its own. 2015-10-31T00:32:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:32:23Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:32:25Z pjb: ryu0: the point is that it's not the C language or compiler that decides to use 2-complement or 1-complement or something else. It's something that is decide by Intel or the processor in general, and C compiler designers just use what the machine provides. 2015-10-31T00:32:32Z Zhivago: ryu: There are no specified byte orders. 2015-10-31T00:32:33Z pjb: ryu0: this is why you don't have bignums in C. 2015-10-31T00:32:48Z Zhivago: pjb: That's obviously nonsense -- consider C interpreters. 2015-10-31T00:33:09Z pjb: Even C interpreters use the native register size. 2015-10-31T00:33:27Z ryu0: pjb: in other words, it's the machine designer who decided what would be used? 2015-10-31T00:33:32Z Zhivago: pjb: You are more delusional than usual today, and again confusing implementations with languages. 2015-10-31T00:33:41Z pjb: The point of C interpreters is still to be as compatible as possible with the C compilers on the same machine, so that you can develop interactively and eventually compile natively. 2015-10-31T00:34:01Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:34:10Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T00:34:21Z pjb: Zhivago: you have never been able to make an intelligent discussion here anyways, it's not today you'll start. You're entirely useless. 2015-10-31T00:34:35Z Bike: give im the chair! 2015-10-31T00:34:42Z pjb: ryu0: indeed. 2015-10-31T00:34:42Z ryu0: ._. 2015-10-31T00:34:55Z ryu0: true, i can see that. 2015-10-31T00:35:11Z ryu0: modular arithmetic... i don't recall ever studying that, sadly. 2015-10-31T00:35:17Z ryu0: maybe it's just been too long. 2015-10-31T00:35:25Z pjb: ryu0: so basically, to learn about variants, you should learn about various processors or computers. 2015-10-31T00:35:27Z Bike: shame, it's really fascinating. seriously, gauss's papers are amazing. 2015-10-31T00:35:42Z pjb: ryu0: nowadays almost all the processors use the same 2-complement scheme. 2015-10-31T00:35:56Z Bike: forget all this bit stuff. you want to represent numbers, the chinese remainder theorem's the way to go! 2015-10-31T00:36:04Z ryu0: yes, i've noticed, that's why i thought it was largely a moot point about it being possible to differ... 2015-10-31T00:36:09Z ryu0: in most cases. 2015-10-31T00:36:11Z Zhivago: pjb: It's difficult to make intelligent discussion with you, since you do not operate in a fact based world. 2015-10-31T00:36:24Z pjb: ryu0: but older systems used sometimes BCD (base ten, variable length fields). This gives you languages like COBOL where you can define numbers as PIC S9(4), etc. 2015-10-31T00:36:25Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:36:35Z pjb: /ignore Zhivago 2015-10-31T00:36:50Z ryu0: Binary Coded Decimal? 2015-10-31T00:36:56Z pjb: Yes. 2015-10-31T00:37:24Z ryu0: i read about it but didn't fully understand how it worked, but it seemed to use each byte to store a single digit or 2. 2015-10-31T00:37:26Z Zhivago: Using the hex digits 0 through A as decimal digits, for example. 2015-10-31T00:37:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:37:44Z pjb: They still used bits in the memory, but groupped them 4 by 4 to encode decimal digits in binary. So the bit patterns 1010 1011 1100 1101 1110 1111 weren't used. 2015-10-31T00:38:09Z ryu0: yea, anything representing 10 to 15 was out. 2015-10-31T00:38:19Z pjb: Yes. So 0123 was stored as 0000 0001 0010 0011 2015-10-31T00:38:48Z ryu0: i saw that x86 in its early days had BCD instructions it appeared. 2015-10-31T00:39:06Z pjb: You can still perform binary add or sub on those data, on the condition of adjusting the result. In x86 there's an instruction to do this adjustment after a binary add. On 680x0 there's a specific BCD add instruction. 2015-10-31T00:39:56Z ryu0: Zhivago: may i ask what the nature of your disagreement with pjb is? 2015-10-31T00:39:59Z pjb: On machines like the 1401 this was the only way to represent numbers, there wasn't any binary representation. 2015-10-31T00:40:35Z ryu0: i'm not a master of the C standard by any means, but i am aware of the semantics you talk about. 2015-10-31T00:40:44Z ryu0: at least some of them. 2015-10-31T00:41:34Z hiyosi quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-31T00:41:37Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:41:57Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T00:42:39Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:43:41Z ryu0: pjb: so your point in the end was about how C performs modular arithmetic using registers that are too small to contain 42!? is that your point about why it produces the wrong result? 2015-10-31T00:43:52Z pjb: ryu0: http://ibm-1401.info/#1401-Processor http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/140x/A_Guide_to_1401_Programming_1961.pdf 2015-10-31T00:44:46Z pjb: Yes, it produces bad results, because people think in Z and C in Z/2^32 (or some worse, undefined behavior). 2015-10-31T00:45:03Z ryu0: Z and C? 2015-10-31T00:45:12Z ryu0: hm. 2015-10-31T00:45:48Z keen___________1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:46:12Z pjb: ℤ, and C 2015-10-31T00:46:17Z emma_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:46:19Z ryu0: Oh. 2015-10-31T00:46:26Z ryu0: the symbol for all integers. 2015-10-31T00:46:44Z keen___________0 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T00:46:53Z pjb: People think in ℤ and C in ℤ/2³². 2015-10-31T00:47:43Z ryu0: meaning, they think that Z is constrained to the limits of 32 bits? 2015-10-31T00:47:47Z ryu0: when it isn't? 2015-10-31T00:47:53Z pjb: No, they ignore the thing. 2015-10-31T00:47:57Z emma_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T00:48:08Z emma_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:48:27Z Bike: "Z/2^32" is mathish for "the integers, mod 2^32". it's a quotient group if you wanna look up the terminology. 2015-10-31T00:48:28Z pjb: In math, we write c≡a+b[2³²] in C they write c=a+b; 2015-10-31T00:48:59Z ryu0: sorry, i must seem difficult. i haven't seen this math notation before. 2015-10-31T00:49:11Z ryu0: do you know of a resource where I could read up on it? 2015-10-31T00:49:16Z pjb: Yes, that may be a problem. Have you been taught C? 2015-10-31T00:49:27Z ryu0: i learned on my own. 2015-10-31T00:49:45Z pjb: Just google for modular arithmetic. 2015-10-31T00:49:45Z ryu0: ANSI C book, 2nd edition... 2015-10-31T00:49:52Z Bike: well, i guess normally you'd write Z/2^32Z 2015-10-31T00:49:58Z emma_ is now known as emma 2015-10-31T00:50:10Z Bike: or you wouldn't write that, because it's weird to read, and you just say 'the integers mod 2^32" 2015-10-31T00:50:19Z pjb: The maths useful for a programmer are not difficult, but they're very useful. 2015-10-31T00:50:39Z ryu0: pjb: your point is that people using C assume they are doing normal arithmetic, when they are actually doing this modular arithmetic? 2015-10-31T00:50:47Z pjb: yes. 2015-10-31T00:51:03Z ryu0: ah, i've been aware of C's integer size limits for some time... 2015-10-31T00:51:04Z cadadar1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T00:51:14Z ryu0: i knew it was different from normal arithmetic, just didn't know quite how. 2015-10-31T00:51:22Z Bike: yeah, that's usual. 2015-10-31T00:51:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-31T00:51:36Z Bike: hardly anybody actually coding C thinks "sure, i can just throw ten quintillion in this integer". 2015-10-31T00:51:56Z ryu0: at the very least, i could see it was only using a subset of the infinite number of integers. 2015-10-31T00:51:58Z Bike: but they might, e.g., allow overflow of signed integer addition, thinking it's defined to "wrap around", when in fact it's undefined. 2015-10-31T00:52:18Z ryu0: i recall reading that. 2015-10-31T00:52:25Z ryu0: isn't it defined for unsigned though? 2015-10-31T00:52:32Z Bike: it is, yes, as modular arithmetic. 2015-10-31T00:52:46Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T00:53:15Z ryu0: Bike: i stumbled across a new way of storing bytes when i was reading musepack's source code... 2015-10-31T00:53:18Z pjb: But similarly, when they use vectors, Writing eg. int a[4],i=0,c; c=a[i]; is wrong. You shall never write a[i] alone. You should first write (assuming a is declared to be an array as I did, and not a pointer): if((0<=i)&&(i<sizeof(a)/sizeof(a[0]))){ c=a[i]; }else{ error("Index out of bound"); } 2015-10-31T00:53:19Z Bike: incidentally, what the actual machine does is probably more complicated; probably throws some carry flags and stuff. 2015-10-31T00:53:20Z ryu0: or rather, new to me method. 2015-10-31T00:53:44Z pjb: And you coud go on and on: you can use almost nothing in C "directly". 2015-10-31T00:53:53Z pjb: (it's even worse in C++). 2015-10-31T00:53:55Z ryu0: it uses the high bit to signify when to stop reading new bytes in constructing the integer. 2015-10-31T00:54:07Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T00:54:09Z Bike: there's lots of ways. infinite ways, really. gray codes are pretty good 2015-10-31T00:54:23Z ryu0: i was puzzled when i first saw it. 2015-10-31T00:54:30Z ryu0: now it makes sense. though an odd choice. 2015-10-31T00:54:57Z ryu0: i assume they choose this to have a flexible way to store integers. 2015-10-31T00:55:10Z ryu0: so that the binary format wouldn't have to be updated... 2015-10-31T00:55:17Z ryu0: if they moved from 32 to 64 bit for example. 2015-10-31T00:55:33Z ryu0: anyway. 2015-10-31T00:55:57Z Bike: let's see, it's an audio codec? 2015-10-31T00:56:01Z ryu0: correct. 2015-10-31T00:56:10Z Bike: there's more than just that, then, it would be silly to have a file created on a 32 bit system fail on a 64 bit system 2015-10-31T00:56:56Z ryu0: Bike: i was looking at how their binary file was structured. 2015-10-31T00:57:22Z ryu0: it's a header (magic bytes "MPCK") followed by a bunch of variable size blocks. 2015-10-31T00:57:40Z Bike: mm. 2015-10-31T00:57:47Z ryu0: they start with a two character key and followed by a special stored size. 2015-10-31T00:58:10Z ryu0: i was surprised, but anyway. 2015-10-31T00:58:58Z ryu0: pjb: your point is that to use a[i] you first must check i's value to ensure it is within bounds? 2015-10-31T00:59:00Z Bike: lotsa formats. old keyboards use an eleven-symbol pulse train to communicate eight bits 2015-10-31T01:00:27Z pjb: ryu0: yes. 2015-10-31T01:00:36Z pjb: and so on. 2015-10-31T01:00:37Z ryu0: well, i never expected to get a lesson on C here, but i appreciate it. 2015-10-31T01:00:50Z Bike: staying on topic is hard 2015-10-31T01:01:08Z pjb: Ie. all the code that is generated automatically by a CL compiler, you should write it yourself by hand to write a correct C program. This is never done, therefore C programs are always full of bugs. 2015-10-31T01:02:25Z ryu0: pjb: i tend to validate everything i know of in C, but i'm sure i miss things. XD 2015-10-31T01:02:43Z ryu0: i sometimes forego it if i know i'll never be passed invalid data... 2015-10-31T01:03:14Z ryu0: but i only see that being possible in private functions. 2015-10-31T01:03:19Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-31T01:05:33Z pjb: ryu0: of course, it's impossible to perform a global analysis by hand without missing a lot of things. Therefore you end up having to perform more tests by hand than what a CL (or any other high level language really) compiler would generate. 2015-10-31T01:07:49Z ryu0: pjb: i assume this is the basis of the cutesy story about bugs in land of lisp? :P 2015-10-31T01:08:06Z pjb: I've not read LoL. 2015-10-31T01:08:41Z ryu0: http://landoflisp.com/ 2015-10-31T01:08:45Z ryu0: see bottom's comic. 2015-10-31T01:10:15Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T03:31:37Z mordocai joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:34:53Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:39:42Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T03:40:04Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:40:04Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T03:40:04Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:44:06Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T03:44:10Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T03:44:48Z beach joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:44:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-10-31T03:45:38Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-10-31T03:46:17Z blubjr: hi beach 2015-10-31T03:47:15Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:47:19Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:47:19Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T03:47:20Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T03:47:46Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:48:12Z nyef: beach: So, more on my floating-point disaster: Yesterday, just before the power went out here, we managed to confirm that there was a kernel bug... locking the FPU to 32-bit mode. Today, I found that the CFLAGS in /etc/portage/make.conf were causing the compiler to mis-compile things like glibc. 2015-10-31T03:48:57Z Bike: good ol cflags. 2015-10-31T03:49:06Z nyef: I don't know which flags yet, and I don't know if I'm going to go to the trouble of figuring it out, but I have what might be a working glibc now. 2015-10-31T03:49:37Z beach: nyef: Amazing! When the FPU is locked in 32-bit mode, what does it do with double floats? 2015-10-31T03:49:41Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T03:49:50Z nyef: They're split over two FPU registers. 2015-10-31T03:50:21Z beach: But no impact on precision? 2015-10-31T03:50:41Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-31T03:50:42Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T03:50:54Z nyef: This is so-called FR0 or FR=0 mode. In FR1 or FR=1 mode, the registers are all 64 bits wide, so there are basically twice as many usable double-precision registers, since they don't have to pair up. 2015-10-31T03:51:14Z beach: I see, yes. 2015-10-31T03:51:25Z nyef: But it's not compatible with code written for FR0 mode, and the o32 ABI requires FR0 mode. 2015-10-31T03:51:28Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:51:46Z nyef: ... I'm not sure which mode the n32 ABI requires, and I'm fairly sure that n64 requires FR1 mode. 2015-10-31T03:52:23Z nyef: So, I may-or-may-not be looking at gcc optimizer bug, or just a really poor combination of flags for my hardware. 2015-10-31T03:52:40Z beach: Fun, fun. 2015-10-31T03:52:46Z nyef: Mmm. 2015-10-31T03:53:03Z nyef: A kernel bug, AND a possible compiler bug, AND a broken default userland configuration. 2015-10-31T03:53:37Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:53:39Z beach: Good luck! 2015-10-31T03:53:46Z nyef: Thanks. 2015-10-31T03:54:45Z nyef: On the upside, the kernel bug should be fixable, the userland configuration is fixed and I "just" need to do a full rebuild of everything, and... Well, not much I can do about a GCC bug, really. 2015-10-31T03:55:12Z beach: Sounds unlikely that there would be one. 2015-10-31T03:55:53Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:56:29Z nyef: Seriously? This isn't the compcert compiler. 2015-10-31T03:57:02Z beach: Sure. 2015-10-31T03:57:22Z beach: But many people have been inspecting it. 2015-10-31T03:57:33Z nyef: I will very easily believe that some combination of optimizer flags passed to GCC will cause it to generate broken code on relatively unused platforms. 2015-10-31T03:57:52Z beach: I guess so. 2015-10-31T03:58:47Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T03:59:21Z nyef: Would you have believed that Linux could have a kernel bug in the platform support for an almost-two-decade-old CPU model, that was at one point supported by its manufacturer? 2015-10-31T04:00:02Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:00:23Z nyef: After all, the same "people have been inspecting it" argument should apply. 2015-10-31T04:00:26Z beach: Point taken. 2015-10-31T04:00:33Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:02:13Z entel joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:02:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:03:18Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:04:22Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:05:11Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:06:33Z beach: nyef: Building SBCL has to be done on the target platform, right? Because, if I understand correctly, during the build process, the C compiler is called on some system code, right? 2015-10-31T04:07:02Z nyef: Yes. Cross-compiling from a different build host involves some back-and-forth, but it's fairly well scripted. 2015-10-31T04:07:27Z beach: nyef: So why can't you just build a system without floats and then define those floats once the minimal target system is built? 2015-10-31T04:07:53Z nyef: I have no idea? 2015-10-31T04:08:53Z nyef: Not that it would have helped much in this case, what with the target glibc being broken. (-: 2015-10-31T04:09:04Z beach: Right. :) 2015-10-31T04:09:08Z beach: I remember Xof telling me once that to do it right, the host system needs a complete copy of the float configuration of the target, but it already sounded wrong at the time. 2015-10-31T04:09:20Z leb joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:10:06Z nyef: ... If they're both IEEE floats, then the worst-case scenario is having to integer-decode-float them when dumping, and reconstructing the target float representation at that point? 2015-10-31T04:10:54Z beach: "dumping" as in creating the target image in the host system? 2015-10-31T04:11:08Z nyef: ... And SBCL already presumes an IEEE-float host, just not necessarily with the whole NaN and infinity bits, I think... 2015-10-31T04:11:10Z beach: Or "dumping" as in creating the final target image from the minimal target image? 2015-10-31T04:11:14Z nyef: As in creating FASLs. 2015-10-31T04:11:40Z beach: FASLs written by the cross compiler or by the native compiler? 2015-10-31T04:11:47Z nyef: From the cross compiler. 2015-10-31T04:12:07Z beach: Again, I don't see why you can't just pretend that Common Lisp doesn't have floats during the build process. 2015-10-31T04:12:14Z nyef: The native compiler can just dump the float bits directly, as it knows its own internals and the local floating point format is, by definition, correct. 2015-10-31T04:12:43Z nyef: I have no idea, either. I haven't seriously looked into the matter. 2015-10-31T04:13:09Z beach: But you see what I am saying, right? 2015-10-31T04:13:32Z nyef: I am. 2015-10-31T04:13:37Z beach: Whew! 2015-10-31T04:13:52Z nyef: If the host doesn't touch floats, the problem gets a lot simpler. 2015-10-31T04:14:03Z beach: Yeah, that's what I mean. 2015-10-31T04:14:49Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:14:58Z nyef: On the other hand, if we can make a few more presumptions about how the host deals with floats, or we can demonstrate that we ALREADY make sufficient presumption, then we can use them a bit MORE in the cross-compiled code. 2015-10-31T04:17:44Z beach: I would have to think of what that would be. I know stassats mentioned hash tables, but I can't think of anything else the host system would need floats for. 2015-10-31T04:19:19Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:21:10Z nyef: Okay, I need to crash now. I might dig more into the whole cross-float thing this weekend, or it might wait until later. 2015-10-31T04:21:23Z beach: Sleep well. 2015-10-31T04:21:23Z nyef: Enjoy your day. 2015-10-31T04:21:28Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-31T04:21:34Z nyef: And thank you. 2015-10-31T04:22:39Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:23:44Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-10-31T04:25:34Z earl-ducaine: I'm having trouble getting cl bit manipulation functions to work in the way I expect (in sbcl): http://paste.lisp.org/display/157887 2015-10-31T04:26:25Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:26:41Z earl-ducaine: Basically the opperations seem to be inconsistent with respect to negative numbers. 2015-10-31T04:27:00Z beach: earl-ducaine: What's the purpose of coercing 4 to something that it already is? 2015-10-31T04:27:10Z Bike: it's not inconsistent, it just uses the leftmost bit as sign even if it's a weird width 2015-10-31T04:27:47Z pjb: earl-ducaine: you have first to understand that in CL, integers have an infinite number of digits. 2015-10-31T04:28:02Z beach: pjb: "unbounded". Not "infinite". 2015-10-31T04:28:14Z Bike: er, no, i said that wrong. 2015-10-31T04:28:25Z earl-ducaine: I want to treat variable as bit fields and perform various opperations on them as a bit field. 2015-10-31T04:28:37Z beach: earl-ducaine: Things don't work that way. 2015-10-31T04:28:54Z Bike: you can use bit vectors 2015-10-31T04:28:54Z pjb: earl-ducaine: negative integers have an infinite number of binary 1s in front of them. positive integers have an infinite number of binary 0s in front of them. 2015-10-31T04:28:56Z beach: earl-ducaine: -5 means ....11111111011 2015-10-31T04:29:06Z Bike: i admit this part of lisp really confuses me :/ 2015-10-31T04:29:07Z earl-ducaine: for example I want to be able to transform 11011 to 00100 by using lognot. 2015-10-31T04:29:26Z beach: earl-ducaine: Things don't work that way. 2015-10-31T04:29:37Z beach: earl-ducaine: integers in Common Lisp don't have a fixed number of bits. 2015-10-31T04:30:03Z beach: earl-ducaine: That's why coercing 4 to (UNSIGNED-BYTE 6) makes absolutely no sense. 2015-10-31T04:30:09Z Bike: well, (logand #b11111 (lognot #b11011)) => #b00100. 2015-10-31T04:30:11Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:30:20Z pjb: earl-ducaine: you may use ldb or logand to limit the number of 1 bits in an integer. 2015-10-31T04:30:37Z pjb: (ldb (byte 6 0) (lognot (coerce 4 '(unsigned-byte 6)))) #| --> 59 |# 2015-10-31T04:30:48Z pjb: (logand #b111111 (lognot (coerce 4 '(unsigned-byte 6)))) #| --> 59 |# 2015-10-31T04:30:50Z Bike: yeah, ok, this makes sense. it's just not what i'm used to, despite even knowing what p adic arithmetic is 2015-10-31T04:32:34Z pjb: earl-ducaine: some implementations will optimize out the logand/ldb, when the mask corresponds to a register size. 2015-10-31T04:34:38Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:35:46Z Xach: (logandc2 #b11111 #b11011) 2015-10-31T04:35:54Z Xach likes to find uses of logandc2 2015-10-31T04:36:22Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:36:38Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:36:49Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-10-31T04:37:04Z lonjil quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-10-31T04:37:07Z beach: earl-ducaine: You can't transform 11011 to 00100 using LOGNOT. You have to find some other operator to do it. The reason is that 11011 means ....0000011011, and taking the LOGNOT of that means ....1111100100. 2015-10-31T04:37:41Z Bike: well, i mean, you can, you just cut off the bits you don't want, namely most of them. 2015-10-31T04:37:45Z Seeq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:37:54Z beach: But not with LOGNOT. 2015-10-31T04:38:17Z beach: earl-ducaine said "I want to be able to transform 11011 to 00100 by using lognot". 2015-10-31T04:38:35Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:38:42Z pjb: Well, you can always use arbitrary functions to do anything. 2015-10-31T04:38:49Z beach: Really? 2015-10-31T04:38:59Z beach: You can use (say) + to cons up a list? 2015-10-31T04:39:26Z pjb: (logand #b111111 (lognot 4)) is transforming 11011 to 00100 by using lognot. 2015-10-31T04:39:44Z Bike: i think this is kind of pointless. 2015-10-31T04:39:46Z Seeq joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:39:50Z pjb: (logand #b111111 (+ (* 0 (sin 4)) (lognot 4))) is doing the same using SIN. 2015-10-31T04:39:51Z kyfho: many things make no sense to me 2015-10-31T04:40:10Z kyfho: are there any companies in boston where I could work as a lisp junior programmer 2015-10-31T04:40:11Z kyfho: ? 2015-10-31T04:40:16Z pjb: beach: yes: (cons (+ (+) 4) '(5 6)) #| --> (4 5 6) |# 2015-10-31T04:40:18Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:40:30Z kyfho: lat thing I want is to use scala 2015-10-31T04:40:31Z pjb: that's consing 4 to a list using +. 2015-10-31T04:40:34Z kyfho: jvm must die 2015-10-31T04:40:52Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:40:53Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:41:08Z pjb: My job is to win champain bottle from silly programming bets. 2015-10-31T04:41:38Z pjb: I started doing that in 1983 in assembler 360… 2015-10-31T04:41:41Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:42:05Z lonjil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:45:12Z beach: pjb: You want a bottle of Champagne? I'll split one with you in Kraków. 2015-10-31T04:45:39Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:45:47Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:46:08Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:46:08Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-31T04:46:14Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:46:16Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-31T04:46:39Z pjb: beach: don't bother, I don't drink alcool; it's the colleagues who drank it. 2015-10-31T04:46:42Z pjb: :-) 2015-10-31T04:46:59Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:46:59Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-31T04:47:05Z beach: Oh well. 2015-10-31T04:47:11Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:47:44Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:48:48Z axion: what is the proper way to write multiline docstrings? i'm new to slime and it appears it doesn't indent subsequent lines (starts at column 0) 2015-10-31T04:48:48Z earl-ducaine: beach: ok, playing around a bit. I'm seeing what was confusing me.... basically lognot 'left fills' integers with 0s or 1s, depending on sign always reversing sign, where as I was thinking of negative numbes as the twos complement of a corresponding positive number with a single sign bit. 2015-10-31T04:49:44Z Bike: well, it corresponds to two's complement, if you have infinite bits. in that sense, it's just a sign extension. 2015-10-31T04:50:34Z pjb: axion: it's the right way. You may want to add a newline at the beginning and at the end of the docstring. 2015-10-31T04:50:36Z beach: earl-ducaine: Listen to Bike. It *is* 2s complement, but with infinite precision. 2015-10-31T04:51:00Z pjb: axion: actually, the formatting (and markup) of your docstrings will depend on the documentation extracting tool you use. 2015-10-31T04:51:04Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:51:09Z beach: axion: I use #.(format nil "....") 2015-10-31T04:51:15Z earl-ducaine: So, I was thinking that I could use it to get 111 (7) --> 000 (0) 2015-10-31T04:51:17Z pjb: axion: I plan to update my tool to use reStructured Text format in docstrings. 2015-10-31T04:51:28Z beach: axion: Then I can use format directives such as ~@. 2015-10-31T04:51:43Z axion: pjb: i don't plan on a documentation tool. i just wanted documentation to have an indentation level consistent with the code. oh well 2015-10-31T04:51:47Z Bike: now, the fun part is when you start using infinite multibit patterns, and you represent fractions and surds that way :p 2015-10-31T04:51:58Z pjb: axion: then what beach said. #.(format). 2015-10-31T04:52:29Z pjb: axion: notice that you can just indent inside your docstrings, and ignore indentation when you extract the docstrings. 2015-10-31T04:52:46Z pjb: (defun mydocumentation (…) (remove-leading-spaces (documentation …))) 2015-10-31T04:55:09Z beach: axion: Look at this one for example: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Sequences/docstrings-en.lisp#L68 2015-10-31T04:55:24Z beach: It uses a (small) abstraction, but you get the picture. 2015-10-31T04:56:35Z beach: The format directive ~@ does the trick. 2015-10-31T04:56:43Z beach: clhs ~@ 2015-10-31T04:56:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 2015-10-31T04:56:56Z pjb: beach: it's wrong. docstrings are not evaluated. You need a reader macro to do that. 2015-10-31T04:57:11Z pjb: Do you have a reader macro on #\( to interpret (fmt at read-time? 2015-10-31T04:57:35Z kyfho quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T04:57:41Z beach: In this case, it is not a docstring. 2015-10-31T04:57:56Z pjb: Oh, right, sorry. 2015-10-31T04:57:59Z beach: I just used it to illustrate the indentation. 2015-10-31T04:58:15Z axion: hm 2015-10-31T04:58:18Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T04:58:19Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T04:58:25Z kyfho joined #lisp 2015-10-31T04:58:43Z pjb: For such long strings, I prefer to just have prefix and suffix newlines… 2015-10-31T04:59:50Z pjb: Notably, emacs will not re-indent the contents of strings without customization. 2015-10-31T04:59:56Z lisp202 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:00:17Z pjb: and neither will it re-shuffle the ~@ when you re-justify the paragraphs inside these docstrings. 2015-10-31T05:00:35Z pjb: (I've posted once on an emacs newsgroup a command to do that for \n). 2015-10-31T05:00:44Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:02:18Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:02:41Z beach: Yeah, they are a pain to write. 2015-10-31T05:03:23Z pjb: Writing emacs commands to help you editing them is easy enough. Since you have alot of them and more to come… 2015-10-31T05:03:45Z axion: pjb: i noticed if i do not use prefix/suffix newlines and one of the subsequent lines has text within parens, slime treats this as a form and fails to compile 2015-10-31T05:03:47Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-31T05:04:09Z pjb: axion: use \( for parens on the first colum in docstrings. 2015-10-31T05:04:49Z axion: shame 2015-10-31T05:04:57Z axion: i wanted docstrings to be read with code as english 2015-10-31T05:05:22Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T05:05:25Z beach: axion: In my opinion, you should not put docstrings in the code. 2015-10-31T05:05:38Z beach: axion: The docstring and the code are meant for different audiences. 2015-10-31T05:05:50Z beach: axion: The code is for the maintainer and the docstring is for the user. 2015-10-31T05:05:51Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:06:04Z axion: in this case both happen to be the same person 2015-10-31T05:06:12Z beach: axion: For that reason, I recommend you use (SETF DOCUMENTATION) and put the docstring elsewhere. 2015-10-31T05:06:35Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:06:44Z beach: Furthermore, by separating the two, you can change the language as part of internationalization. 2015-10-31T05:07:33Z pjb: Once I did that with #+; but indeed, when you translate docstrings, it's better to do it separately. 2015-10-31T05:08:05Z pjb: On the other hand, for localization of strings in general, it works best when you keep one language in the source, and use tools to extract those strings somewhere else to be localised. 2015-10-31T05:08:47Z axion: again, this code is private and not meant for anyone but the maintainer. it's not my preference to use functions or look elsewhere for how the function works 2015-10-31T05:09:01Z pjb: Of course, nothing prevents you to use "symbolic" strings and have an English localization, like: "IED03123" as docstring, and a corresponding English translation somewhere. 2015-10-31T05:09:26Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T05:10:12Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:11:04Z pjb: It's true that M-. is more convenient to read the docstrings, than anything eg. C-c C-d f or C-c C-d d 2015-10-31T05:12:21Z kyfho: anyone running a lisp powered website? 2015-10-31T05:12:42Z namespace: kyfho: Am about to, why? 2015-10-31T05:13:10Z beach: kyfho: http://blog.tymoon.eu/ 2015-10-31T05:13:14Z beach: And many others. 2015-10-31T05:16:02Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:16:32Z johann_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T05:19:40Z fu7mu4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T05:19:48Z heddwch joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:20:57Z zabriskie joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:21:26Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:22:10Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T05:27:58Z zabriskie quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-10-31T05:28:25Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T05:30:10Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:36:59Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:37:19Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-10-31T05:37:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:38:04Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:41:13Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-31T05:41:38Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:44:13Z kyfho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T05:46:17Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T05:47:57Z krrrcks quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-10-31T05:50:14Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T05:53:32Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T05:57:25Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-10-31T06:00:58Z WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-31T06:00:58Z WizJin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T06:01:20Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T06:01:35Z resttime quit (Quit: Bye bye!) 2015-10-31T06:06:36Z leafybasil quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T06:08:20Z snv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T06:08:44Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-31T06:10:48Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-10-31T06:12:45Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T06:12:54Z [BNC]WizJin joined #lisp 2015-10-31T06:12:55Z [BNC]WizJin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-10-31T06:13:31Z H4ns: if there are many, how about just a few more sample URLs? :) 2015-10-31T06:13:49Z H4ns: oh, kyfho is already gone, never mind. 2015-10-31T06:14:13Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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CLOS 2015-10-31T07:39:09Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:39:28Z kalzz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:39:42Z native_killer joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:40:18Z beach: Xof: I think I understand. 2015-10-31T07:40:26Z pjb: Like, in lisp, you would use compilation time float arithmetic to compute a table of native floats to be used at run-time. 2015-10-31T07:41:39Z pjb: So if the target floats are not the same as the compiler host floats, you would better have a good emulation of those target floats in the cross compiler, or else you can say good bye to a whole class of CL programs. 2015-10-31T07:43:06Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:44:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T07:44:41Z Bahman left #lisp 2015-10-31T07:45:42Z lisp202 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T07:47:56Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T07:50:57Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:51:48Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:52:17Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T07:53:34Z megid0 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Do I just clone closer-mop.git and use that? 2015-10-31T12:49:19Z beach: phoe_krk: Unwarranted calls to COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD as I understand it. 2015-10-31T12:49:21Z nyef: arnsholt: Use a temporary quicklisp install, load postmodern, then look for the sources in the quicklisp directory. 2015-10-31T12:49:41Z beach: ... and good afternoon everyone! 2015-10-31T12:49:46Z phoe_krk: afternoon 2015-10-31T12:49:56Z phoe_krk: and thanks, beach 2015-10-31T12:50:12Z Shinmera: The main gain was removing an unnecessary call to EVAL 2015-10-31T12:50:31Z Shinmera: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/commit/eb2f844a057289e90996548333627772ba67c160 2015-10-31T12:51:07Z Shinmera: As you can see the build time went down quite a bit with that change http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpZMw== 2015-10-31T12:51:28Z drmeister: The unnecessary call to eval was the biggest deal 2015-10-31T12:51:39Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-31T12:51:43Z beach: Oh, guess I misunderstood. 2015-10-31T12:51:52Z drmeister: There was a complicated series of interlocking failures that followed from that. 2015-10-31T12:52:32Z drmeister: beach: You would think so from the logs - we spent a long time looking at COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD - it's still ongoing 2015-10-31T12:52:49Z beach: Ah, OK. I see. 2015-10-31T12:54:05Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T12:56:08Z shookees quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T12:56:19Z vap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T12:57:13Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T12:57:28Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-10-31T12:57:30Z ktx joined #lisp 2015-10-31T12:57:43Z arnsholt: nyef: Good point. That's the right thing to do, of course. Cheers! 2015-10-31T12:57:59Z beach: drmeister: Does the improvement also improve performance in general, or just build time? 2015-10-31T13:01:23Z wtbrk joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:01:31Z drmeister: It should improve performance of the compiler dramatically. 2015-10-31T13:04:04Z drmeister: You use APPEND non-standard method combination to build the AST save/copy functions. Non-standard method combinators were being set up as interpreted code. Interpreted code uses stack unwinding for GO and RETURN-FROM. Lots of stack unwinding makes _Unwind_Find_FDE consume huge amounts of CPU and Linux Torvalds sad. 2015-10-31T13:04:15Z drmeister: Linus 2015-10-31T13:05:11Z beach: But that can be a problem only if the effective methods are not subject to caching. 2015-10-31T13:05:27Z drmeister: It's early for me. The jokey part of my brain is still asleep and stealing the covers from the rest of my brain. 2015-10-31T13:05:35Z drmeister: And they were not. 2015-10-31T13:05:54Z beach: Now they are? 2015-10-31T13:06:02Z drmeister: The caching was also screwed up. 2015-10-31T13:06:12Z beach: OK. 2015-10-31T13:06:23Z drmeister: The caching is fixed. It was a bug that I faithfully copied from ECL. 2015-10-31T13:06:29Z drmeister: jackdaniel has been informed 2015-10-31T13:07:00Z beach: I guess nobody complained because method combinations other than STANDARD are rarely used. 2015-10-31T13:07:02Z drmeister: Medals all around! 2015-10-31T13:07:07Z drmeister: Yes 2015-10-31T13:07:26Z drmeister: But you (rightfully) use them when compiling every form. 2015-10-31T13:07:39Z drmeister: I haven't tried yet but this should give a big boost to compiling Slime 2015-10-31T13:07:40Z nyef: Sounds like a good win would be to write a more efficient _Unwind_Find_FDE and friends for Linux, and get them merged upstream. 2015-10-31T13:08:13Z beach: drmeister: I don't think I use them for compiling forms, do I? 2015-10-31T13:08:18Z beach: Just for copying ASTs. 2015-10-31T13:08:19Z beach: No? 2015-10-31T13:08:22Z drmeister: beach: There's a problem loading quicklisp into clasp - you might have some ideas about it. 2015-10-31T13:09:35Z beach: What makes you think that? 2015-10-31T13:10:05Z loadsdow` joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:12:06Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:12:23Z loadsdow`: are there less verbose alternatives to a let binding? (without relying on my own macro)? 2015-10-31T13:13:02Z beach: loadsdow`: What do you think is verbose about LET? 2015-10-31T13:14:17Z shka_: loadsdow`: what do you want to do? 2015-10-31T13:14:27Z shka_: loadsdow`: perhaps bind is what you want 2015-10-31T13:14:31Z shka_: but not sure about that 2015-10-31T13:15:16Z beach: shka_: There is no Common Lisp operator called BIND. 2015-10-31T13:15:22Z DKordic joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:15:46Z shka_: beach: no, but there is lib with macro called bind 2015-10-31T13:15:55Z loadsdow`: bind is one thing I was looking for, I remember some referencing it on some stackoverflow post 2015-10-31T13:16:20Z shka_: beach: more or less bind is clojure style let 2015-10-31T13:16:33Z drmeister: beach: When cclasp loads Quicklisp it exhausts the stack. 2015-10-31T13:16:53Z drmeister: It goes into a deep recursive loop in defining-function-info 2015-10-31T13:16:59Z shka_: loadsdow`: so what exactly do you want to change in let? 2015-10-31T13:17:06Z shka_: since we are guessing at this point 2015-10-31T13:17:42Z loadsdow`: i often find myself needing to eg make a couple of simple checks on a value before proceeding. so maybe I just want to bind a single value and be able to refer to it by name, and then return that value 2015-10-31T13:18:11Z shka_: aha! 2015-10-31T13:18:12Z loadsdow`: maybe something like (as (x (get-value)) (check-1 x) (check-2 x)) 2015-10-31T13:18:17Z shka_: i see 2015-10-31T13:18:19Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:18:29Z drmeister: Is it possible that defining-function info could exhaust the stack? 2015-10-31T13:18:43Z drmeister: beach: ^ 2015-10-31T13:18:54Z beach: drmeister: Sounds very unlikely. 2015-10-31T13:19:02Z beach: Unless there is a bug. 2015-10-31T13:19:15Z loadsdow`: should return x but make sure it passes (check-1 1) (check-2 1). I mean, I can always write my own macro but I was wondering if something exists already 2015-10-31T13:19:40Z shka_: loadsdow`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157982 2015-10-31T13:19:43Z drmeister: When I trace it - it goes >250 levels deep, many, many times - is that reasonable? 2015-10-31T13:20:09Z beach: drmeister: If you have 250 deeply nested bindings in your program, that could happen I guess. 2015-10-31T13:20:11Z shka_: loadsdow`: i wrote this macro for simillar reasons 2015-10-31T13:20:45Z shka_: because i was sick of writing (do-stuff (more-stuff (even-more x))) 2015-10-31T13:20:47Z drmeister: beach: This is the first time I've seen this and it's during (load "/Users/meister/quicklisp/setup.lisp") 2015-10-31T13:21:01Z shka_: so i guess i would recommend to just write your own macro 2015-10-31T13:21:05Z entel quit 2015-10-31T13:21:10Z shka_: it will take 15 minutes 2015-10-31T13:21:19Z drmeister: I can dig deeper - I got caught up with the other things we were doing last night 2015-10-31T13:21:51Z beach: drmeister: Yes, please dig a bit deeper, so that I have some more information. 2015-10-31T13:22:02Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-10-31T13:22:34Z loadsdow`: @shka yeah, I guess I could do that and I can see how your macro is useful. in fact I also wanted to avoid having to name the variable like you do with _. but I'd have to re-write the macro on every project 2015-10-31T13:22:40Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:23:12Z beach: drmeister: I am doing it this way (rather than with lists) so that I can use generic dispatch on local environment extensions. 2015-10-31T13:23:22Z drmeister: I understand. 2015-10-31T13:23:24Z beach: I might consider doing it differently. 2015-10-31T13:23:52Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:23:52Z drmeister: I'm just checking in with you because of the cleavir tie-in. 2015-10-31T13:23:56Z shka_: loadsdow`: make yourself a toolbox library :) 2015-10-31T13:24:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:24:28Z beach: drmeister: Yes, of course. If it is going to be a problem in common implementations, I should design it differently. 2015-10-31T13:24:53Z shka_: loadsdow`: basicly, my impression about this topic is that you can everything that suits you 2015-10-31T13:25:00Z shka_: and it is frequently easy 2015-10-31T13:25:03Z drmeister: I'll do some more tests. 2015-10-31T13:25:07Z beach: Thanks. 2015-10-31T13:25:14Z shka_: so why not just do that? 2015-10-31T13:25:20Z shka_: lisp is freedom 2015-10-31T13:25:46Z shka_: plus if you write this yourself 2015-10-31T13:25:53Z shka_: you will understand how it works 2015-10-31T13:26:01Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:26:43Z hydan joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:27:01Z loadsdow`: yeah. the only problem with that is portability, and other people reading my code would have to also understand how it works. but that's ok. 2015-10-31T13:27:02Z johann_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:27:04Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:27:36Z beach: loadsdow`: (let ((x (get-value))) (check-1 x) (check-2 x) x) is only a few characters more than (as (x (get-value)) (check-1 x) (check-2 x)) 2015-10-31T13:28:24Z beach: 5 more in fact. 2015-10-31T13:29:11Z loadsdow`: yeah, I'd actually implement it so that I don't have to specify the variable name. so it would just be (as (get-value) (assert (check-1 _))) 2015-10-31T13:29:27Z shka_: loadsdow`: why not go even further 2015-10-31T13:29:34Z shka_: and be able to write 2015-10-31T13:30:30Z shka_: (with-variables-satifying-checks (x) (check1 check2 check3) ...) 2015-10-31T13:30:41Z phoe_krk: because that is too many characters 2015-10-31T13:30:50Z phoe_krk: :P 2015-10-31T13:31:09Z shka_: or 2015-10-31T13:31:11Z shka_: in fact 2015-10-31T13:31:17Z shka_: you don't even need macro for that 2015-10-31T13:31:25Z shka_: you just need a higher order function 2015-10-31T13:31:28Z hydan: phoe_krk: the more characters, the easier to fuzzy complete in slime :p 2015-10-31T13:31:56Z beach: I suggest (check-2 (check-2 (get-value))). 2015-10-31T13:32:12Z beach: Er (check-2 (check-1 (get-value))). 2015-10-31T13:33:06Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:33:09Z beach: No variables. Not even _. 2015-10-31T13:33:16Z phoe_krk: beach: with an error being raised if a check fails? or a nil or an error value being returned? 2015-10-31T13:33:55Z shka_: beach: i think that idea was to have let check that additionally performs some assertions befor your code 2015-10-31T13:33:57Z beach: How should I know. 2015-10-31T13:33:58Z beach: ? 2015-10-31T13:34:18Z phoe_krk: shka_: then nil 2015-10-31T13:34:27Z shka_: loadsdow`: basicly do whatever you want 2015-10-31T13:34:29Z beach: shka_: My solution doesn't satisfy that? 2015-10-31T13:34:54Z loadsdow`: i'll go with my own macro. the problem with the above is that the checks might not necessarily return the same value. or I might just want to print something as a side-effect (which returns nil). So I'd have to re-write (check-1) to (progn (check-1 x) x). but yeah 2015-10-31T13:34:54Z shka_: beach: sure, but there are multiple ways to do that 2015-10-31T13:34:56Z loadsdow`: thanks 2015-10-31T13:35:01Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T13:35:04Z shka_: and i really can't tell which one is the best 2015-10-31T13:35:11Z phoe_krk: beach's solution works, I think; if any check fails, it returns a nil, and the nil is passed through subsequent checks, and a simple (if (check2 (check1 (...)) ... ...) will branch there. 2015-10-31T13:35:18Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:35:26Z phoe_krk: loadsdow`: you don't have to return nil when you print something 2015-10-31T13:35:42Z phoe_krk: (defun x () (format t "a") 4) 2015-10-31T13:36:06Z phoe_krk: side effects don't force you to abide by *their* return values 2015-10-31T13:36:08Z shka_: beach: i think that it is just a matter of personal taste 2015-10-31T13:36:23Z arnsholt: How do I get ASDF to look recursively for systems from the directories in *central-registry*? 2015-10-31T13:37:59Z beach: loadsdow`: I suggest you don't bother with a macro for such a minor saving in character count. 2015-10-31T13:38:39Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:38:44Z loadsdow`: @arnsholt In the unlikely event you're using buildapp, you can use "--asdf-tree" 2015-10-31T13:39:19Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:40:14Z aleamb joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:40:37Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:41:18Z arnsholt: loadsdow`: Nope. I've just (pushnew #P"~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/" asdf:*central-registry*) and then try to (asdf:load-system :postmodern) 2015-10-31T13:41:58Z arnsholt: This may very well be due to an old version of ASDF (since this code is running on Allegro CL 8.2) 2015-10-31T13:43:42Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:44:27Z johann_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:45:18Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:45:51Z loadsdow`: @arnsholt i'm actually not too familiar with asdf details so i'll let someone else take over. but on my system, I do have a single directory in central-registry: 2015-10-31T13:45:52Z shka_: btw 2015-10-31T13:45:54Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:46:13Z shka_: what is the advantage of allegro cl over open source implementations, like sbcl? 2015-10-31T13:46:27Z arnsholt: loadsdow`: Yeah, as far as I can make out it should work, 'cept it doesn't. Which is annoying 2015-10-31T13:46:28Z shka_: i know that it has some additional capabilites 2015-10-31T13:46:45Z shka_: including data base related stuff 2015-10-31T13:46:49Z shka_: but what else? 2015-10-31T13:46:50Z arnsholt: In this case it's because of the CLIM UI library 2015-10-31T13:47:06Z arnsholt: The app I'm trying to rescue data out of runs on it, so that's that, apparently 2015-10-31T13:47:23Z beach: arnsholt: Did you try it in McCLIM? 2015-10-31T13:48:07Z arnsholt: beach: Nope. This is code my boss has written, and has worked on on and off for something like 20 years. So I'm just using whatever compiler and such I'm told to use =) 2015-10-31T13:48:21Z arnsholt: But from what I hear this particular part of the code base only works with Allegro 2015-10-31T13:48:59Z beach: OK, but that's a different argument from the "CLIM UI library". 2015-10-31T13:49:06Z arnsholt: Ah, right 2015-10-31T13:49:21Z arnsholt: CL isn't exactly my first language, so I'm mostly going by what I've heard 2015-10-31T13:49:33Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:49:44Z arnsholt: Got to go (dinner time). Back later 2015-10-31T13:49:50Z arnsholt: Thanks for the help so far! 2015-10-31T13:50:11Z beach: It's OK. If your boss wants to shell out the money for a commercial Common Lisp implementation, that's his/her right. It is good for the economy too. 2015-10-31T13:50:25Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T13:52:39Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T13:53:24Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:54:20Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:54:26Z shka_: beach: is that your opinion on allegro? ;-) 2015-10-31T13:54:37Z beach: I have no opinion. Never used it. 2015-10-31T13:57:24Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:57:51Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-31T13:59:56Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:00:19Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:00:20Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:07:24Z Nikotiini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:08:19Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:12:51Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:19:30Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:22:27Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:22:46Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:31:59Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:33:33Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:36:06Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:36:12Z athngththpns joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:38:37Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:39:19Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:40:53Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:42:29Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T14:50:12Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:50:54Z xrash_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:51:48Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:54:56Z phoe_krk: I just realized the advantages of having a full state of a functional program always at hand. 2015-10-31T14:55:09Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T14:55:26Z phoe_krk: Such as, the ability to connect a frontend to a functional backend in a very simple way. 2015-10-31T14:56:01Z phoe_krk: Just send it the full state and let it adjust as appropriate. 2015-10-31T14:57:27Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-10-31T14:57:53Z phoe_krk: ...and the state can be fully expressed through Lisp sexrprs, passed from the backend's print to frontend's read. 2015-10-31T14:58:03Z phoe_krk: Wow. 2015-10-31T14:59:14Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:05:25Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:05:48Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:10:05Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:10:22Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:12:21Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:14:51Z phoe_krk: Scheme seems to have a working Unity3D implementation. Clojure seems to have a maintained Unity3D implementation. CL doesn't... yet. 2015-10-31T15:16:26Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:17:28Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T15:17:31Z phoe_krk: Technically, I could just use either of the two on the frontend and make sure that the data is in a mutually comprehensible format. 2015-10-31T15:17:53Z phoe_krk: But CL is CL. 2015-10-31T15:20:06Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:20:18Z Xach: For things to happen, someone must do them. For things to exist, someone must make them. 2015-10-31T15:20:32Z dandersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T15:22:08Z phoe_krk: Yes, that's why I'm thinking about either making something on top of http://dotlisp.sourceforge.net/dotlisp.htm which seems usable or... writing an implementation of a subset of Common Lisp inside Unity3D's C#. 2015-10-31T15:22:14Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:23:19Z phoe_krk: Seems hard. Is there any tutorial about what needs to be done to implement a basic Lisp that everything else can be bootstrapped from? 2015-10-31T15:24:22Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:25:59Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:26:22Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:28:56Z arnsholt: phoe_krk: There's an appendix in Practical Common Lisp discussing which functions are special forms and such 2015-10-31T15:29:33Z arnsholt: But of course, it's a pretty cursory discussion. Implementing a compiler for a system as dynemic and introspectable as CL is pretty involved 2015-10-31T15:30:09Z phoe_krk: I don't actually need a whole compiler, I just need a bridle to Unity3D's C# 2015-10-31T15:30:29Z phoe_krk: It already does typehandling, memory allocation, garbage collection and so on. 2015-10-31T15:31:31Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T15:31:39Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:34:50Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T15:38:37Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:41:15Z phoe_krk: http://norvig.com/lispy.html Something along this. 2015-10-31T15:42:48Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:43:18Z euandreh_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:45:41Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:46:26Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T15:47:27Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-31T15:48:00Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T15:50:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: you might be able to run ABCL on the CLR 2015-10-31T15:50:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: via http://www.ikvm.net 2015-10-31T15:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or something like that 2015-10-31T15:51:15Z phoe_krk: ...now that's some heavy duty cannons 2015-10-31T15:51:57Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-10-31T15:54:39Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:54:39Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T15:54:39Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:56:58Z loke_` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T15:57:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: this might work? http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 2015-10-31T15:57:31Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: I need it the other way around. 2015-10-31T15:58:06Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: unless... let me think a while longer, maybe I can change my architecture to utilize that. 2015-10-31T15:58:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I don't know the first thing about unity3d, but isn't it possible to right the (main) in lisp? 2015-10-31T15:58:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/right/write/ 2015-10-31T15:58:41Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-10-31T15:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'd just have to figure out the right steps to take to get Unity running 2015-10-31T16:00:06Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-31T16:00:44Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather not do that. Unity3D seems way too big for that. 2015-10-31T16:01:45Z sundo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:02:13Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:02:59Z ajf- quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-31T16:03:13Z phoe_krk: I need to interface lisp from within Unity, not the other way around. 2015-10-31T16:03:43Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:07:25Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T16:07:44Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:08:24Z arborist joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:09:35Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2015-10-31T16:11:13Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:13:49Z athngththpns left #lisp 2015-10-31T16:15:13Z arborist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:15:37Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:18:58Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:21:59Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:22:03Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:22:09Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2015-10-31T16:22:35Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T16:24:47Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:27:14Z athngththpns joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:28:25Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:28:25Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/kanaka/mal this is interesting 2015-10-31T16:30:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:31:15Z ajf- joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:31:57Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-10-31T16:32:49Z ajf-: are the switch cases in lisp ? 2015-10-31T16:32:55Z ajf-: *are there 2015-10-31T16:33:25Z loke_: ajf-: Yes 2015-10-31T16:33:39Z loke_: ajf-: It depends on what you want to select on 2015-10-31T16:33:47Z ajf-: how so 2015-10-31T16:33:56Z resttime: ajf-: CASE and COND 2015-10-31T16:34:08Z ajf-: ok thanks 2015-10-31T16:34:09Z loke_: ajf-: You probably want ECASE or CASE. 2015-10-31T16:34:21Z athngththpns quit (Quit: errer) 2015-10-31T16:34:31Z loke_: ajf-: Unless you want to switch on strings, in which case you have to use the third-party library STRING-CASE 2015-10-31T16:34:33Z phoe_krk: CASE tries to evaluate all the conditions and doesn't stop on the first true one like COND does? 2015-10-31T16:35:12Z loke_: phoe_krk: It doesn't evaluate anything. It simply picks the one (could be using a hash lookup, but that's not specified) 2015-10-31T16:35:30Z phoe_krk: oh, so it only compares values 2015-10-31T16:35:38Z loke_: phoe_krk: Exactly. 2015-10-31T16:35:51Z phoe_krk: ,clhs case 2015-10-31T16:36:02Z phoe_krk: or whatever the bot command was 2015-10-31T16:36:07Z loke_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm 2015-10-31T16:36:32Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T16:36:39Z resttime: Writing a STRING-CASE macro of your own is pretty easy too. 2015-10-31T16:36:43Z loke_: phoe_krk: Usually you want ECASE. It differs from CASE in that it raises an error if none of the entries match (CASE simply returns NIL) 2015-10-31T16:36:54Z phoe_krk: got it 2015-10-31T16:36:59Z mathrick joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:37:07Z loke_: resttime: True, but the one in QL is very clever, and much faster than what you could write yourself. 2015-10-31T16:37:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T16:37:39Z resttime: loke_: Interesting I'll have a looksie. 2015-10-31T16:37:53Z loke_: resttime: Or more correct, it's much faster than what any sane person would write unless you want to waste lots of time :-) 2015-10-31T16:38:51Z loke_: resttime: Yeah, take a look at the macroexpansion of a larse STRING-CASE form. Note that it even contains assembly code that is used on SBCL on Intel to improve the performance of the comparisons. 2015-10-31T16:39:19Z Xach: he wrote a blog post about how it works 2015-10-31T16:39:23Z Xach: and why 2015-10-31T16:39:27Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:39:35Z loke_: Xach: Yeah, i think that text is in the readme for the package, isn't it? 2015-10-31T16:39:44Z Xach: http://pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/string_case_bis.html 2015-10-31T16:39:46Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:08Z frankS2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:27Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:27Z DANtheBEASTman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:27Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:27Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:27Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:46Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:47Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:47Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:48Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:48Z cataska quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:40:48Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:41:08Z SilentEcho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:41:55Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:42:04Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:42:49Z frankS2 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:43:19Z drmeister joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:43:28Z pchrist joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:43:42Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:43:51Z NhanH joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:46:07Z DANtheBEASTman joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:46:09Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-31T16:46:27Z athngththpns joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:46:41Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:46:41Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:46:57Z cataska joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:47:18Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:47:32Z athngththpns quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T16:48:18Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T16:49:21Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:50:27Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:52:09Z paul0``` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T16:52:41Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:54:07Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:54:10Z SilentEcho joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:55:52Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:57:51Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T16:58:44Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:00:14Z GUEST_4567345 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:00:25Z GUEST_4567345 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T17:01:57Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T17:03:59Z Draz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T17:04:15Z Draz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:05:09Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:05:49Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:11:56Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:11:56Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T17:11:56Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:13:46Z Cthulhux`: oh, sbcl 1.3 is first available for windows. neat. :D 2015-10-31T17:14:08Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:14:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:18:12Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T17:20:27Z ajf-: clhs debugging 2015-10-31T17:20:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for debugging. 2015-10-31T17:20:28Z ajf-: ? 2015-10-31T17:20:46Z ajf-: how do I know where I'm at on an error 2015-10-31T17:20:53Z jackdaniel: clhs trace 2015-10-31T17:20:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 2015-10-31T17:21:02Z jackdaniel: clhs *debugger-hook* 2015-10-31T17:21:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debugg.htm 2015-10-31T17:22:17Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-31T17:23:06Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:23:39Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T17:35:49Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:36:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T17:40:28Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-31T17:43:45Z Whitesquall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T17:43:46Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-10-31T17:44:05Z Whitesquall joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:47:47Z Whitesqu_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T17:49:20Z Whitesquall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T17:51:18Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T18:00:31Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:07:21Z samssammerz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T18:08:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:08:24Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:09:33Z tsoutseki quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T18:10:17Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:11:23Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T18:11:41Z drmeister: What is the difference between these logical pathnames: #P"sys:;kernel/init.lsp" #P"sys:kernel/init.lsp" is there any? 2015-10-31T18:12:41Z drmeister: Well, for one: (translate-logical-pathname #P"sys:;kernel/init.lsp") --> error #P"SYS:;KERNEL/INIT.LSP" admits no logical pathname translations 2015-10-31T18:13:25Z nyef: drmeister: DESCRIBE both of them to have a look at how their components differ? 2015-10-31T18:14:03Z drmeister: Hmm, describe has not gotten the love that it deserves in Clasp - checking... 2015-10-31T18:14:19Z nyef: Or use the various accessors defined for pathnames. 2015-10-31T18:14:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:14:48Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ONhcJsfx/ 2015-10-31T18:14:52Z drmeister: Yeah - needs love 2015-10-31T18:15:05Z nyef: Eek. 2015-10-31T18:15:15Z nyef: Swipe SBCL's "inspected-parts" mechanism? 2015-10-31T18:15:53Z drmeister: For Clasp 0.5 2015-10-31T18:16:13Z drmeister: From ECL 2015-10-31T18:16:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IYBJLwli/ 2015-10-31T18:16:27Z drmeister: Lookin' for love in all the wrong places. 2015-10-31T18:16:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HYy7oLFj/ 2015-10-31T18:17:45Z nyef: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YrY-Nk3wqo ? 2015-10-31T18:18:07Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:18:22Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:18:50Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T18:20:10Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T18:22:45Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:23:32Z drmeister starts reconsidering his "slutty grim reaper" costume idea for tonight after watching that video. 2015-10-31T18:25:36Z shka_: nyef: gosh 2015-10-31T18:28:23Z jason_m: if i have a system installed through quicklisp, want to modify it, clone it into local-projects, will that copy be picked up on subsequent quickloads? How is the search order handled? 2015-10-31T18:28:30Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T18:28:30Z tsoutseki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T18:29:00Z XachX: Local-projects has higher priority 2015-10-31T18:29:48Z jason_m: thanks. can i override that if needed? 2015-10-31T18:30:48Z tsoutseki joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:33:53Z ajf-: what other keywords different than for can you use to define local vars that depend on other vars in a loop ? 2015-10-31T18:34:05Z Bike: read the clhs 2015-10-31T18:35:11Z Xach: jason_m: how so? to take the quicklisp version? 2015-10-31T18:37:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: that is actually kind of nasty problem. I have some repos that I'm not sure present in QL. I'm too lazy to check all the time so it would be nice to have mechanism that could rearrange priorities. 2015-10-31T18:38:27Z Xach: hitecnologys: what do you mean? 2015-10-31T18:39:42Z jason_m: Xach: yes, to take the quicklisp version 2015-10-31T18:39:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: I mean I have a few projects cloned to local-projects that weren't in QL at the moment of cloning. Over time, they get added there but I forget about that I don't update. Since the local-projects have higher priority, the new version in QL gets overwritten by mine old one. 2015-10-31T18:40:06Z Xach: hitecnologys: ok. what do you think is the solution? 2015-10-31T18:40:14Z Xach: jason_m: the easiest thing is to move the project out of local-projects 2015-10-31T18:40:48Z hitecnologys: Xach: probably a variable that I can set to T that would make QL first check dists, then local projects. 2015-10-31T18:40:52Z treaki joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:41:09Z Xach: hitecnologys: will you be too lazy to set that variable? 2015-10-31T18:41:24Z hitecnologys: Xach: not really. That's one time job. =P 2015-10-31T18:42:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T18:42:52Z Xach: hitecnologys: you could try it out for a while on your own by swapping the local-projects-searcher and ql-dist:system-definition-searcher in asdf:*system-definition-search-functions* 2015-10-31T18:43:00Z Xach: write a short function to swap them and see if it helps you out 2015-10-31T18:43:25Z hitecnologys: Xach: oh, that could work. Thanks. 2015-10-31T18:44:15Z jason_m: Xach: hitecnologys: I'll take a look at that too - thanks! 2015-10-31T18:45:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:45:35Z Xach: For what it's worth, I don't think it's a great idea. 2015-10-31T18:45:40Z axion: what is the proper method for taking over a project whose maintainer hasn't responded to bug reports/pull requests in a year, so that updated code could be added to QL? 2015-10-31T18:46:01Z Xach: axion: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2013/10/forks-and-quicklisp.html has some info 2015-10-31T18:47:42Z axion: Xach: I have repeatedly tried to make contact with a maintainer unsuccessfully, asking about taking over/merging by pull requests/etc 2015-10-31T18:47:46Z axion: so no chance huh? 2015-10-31T18:47:59Z Xach: no chance of what? 2015-10-31T18:51:24Z axion: I'd like to see a few projects I have contributed to actually merge in my pull requests, or fix the reported bugs themselves. Some maintainers just seem to abandon their projects for over a year. It would be nice if I didn't have to distribute forks with my code, when people could get it from QL automatically 2015-10-31T18:52:43Z Xach: axion: no chance of what? 2015-10-31T18:53:18Z axion: Replacing a package with a new upstream without some form of authorization from a maintainer that responds 2015-10-31T18:53:28Z goglosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T18:53:42Z Xach: axion: what suggests that to you? 2015-10-31T18:56:01Z oleba joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:57:53Z Xof: hitecnologys: possibly write a searcher that performs all the search functions, and warns you that some are being shadowed by others? 2015-10-31T18:58:07Z Xof: exercise left to the reader &c 2015-10-31T18:58:25Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T18:58:34Z ajf-: clhs for 2015-10-31T18:58:34Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for for. 2015-10-31T18:58:53Z ajf-: ba loop 2015-10-31T18:58:56Z hitecnologys: Xof: no, won't work. It load only one project. 2015-10-31T18:58:58Z ajf-: ah nice 2015-10-31T18:59:05Z ajf-: thanks Bike couldn't find that before 2015-10-31T18:59:28Z hitecnologys: Xof: the problem is that it loads not the one I need. 2015-10-31T18:59:57Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:02:11Z Xof: hitecnologys: what I'm saying is that if you write a searcher it will tell you when you've forgotten that you have a local project shadowing the quicklisp one 2015-10-31T19:03:01Z hitecnologys: Xof: ah, I see. Yeah, I thought about writing some that could check which one is the newest and load it. 2015-10-31T19:03:38Z numbertheory_isP quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T19:05:34Z beach left #lisp 2015-10-31T19:06:12Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:07:50Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:07:55Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:08:01Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:09:45Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:10:26Z Whitesqu_ is now known as Whitesquall 2015-10-31T19:11:40Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:12:36Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:12:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:13:51Z Whitesquall quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-10-31T19:14:20Z Whitesquall joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:15:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:17:13Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:17:13Z _leb joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:17:49Z jason_m joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:18:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:19:03Z ajf-: convert list(1d) of lists(2d) of lists(3d) into a list(1d) of lists(3d) ? 2015-10-31T19:19:23Z ajf-: i'm trying concatenate 2015-10-31T19:19:32Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:22:47Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-31T19:23:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:24:24Z ajf-: ok (apply #'append '(( () () () ) ( () () () ))) worked 2015-10-31T19:24:40Z Whitesquall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T19:25:03Z Whitesquall joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:25:19Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T19:25:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:29:02Z treaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:29:04Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:29:04Z oleo_ quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T19:29:04Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:30:42Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:32:20Z ajf-: are there destructuring assignments in lisp ? 2015-10-31T19:32:40Z whiteline joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:32:55Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:33:03Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:33:07Z ajf-: like (setf a b c) '( (a) (b) (c) ) 2015-10-31T19:33:33Z Xach: ajf-: no, but you can do something like (setf (values a b c) <some form returning three values>) 2015-10-31T19:34:02Z Xach: ajf-: and there's also destructuring-bind. 2015-10-31T19:34:06Z ajf-: returning three values in a list no ? 2015-10-31T19:34:13Z ajf-: <..> 2015-10-31T19:34:29Z reggy: when i started to use lisp, i had same question and write macro. but after that i never used it 2015-10-31T19:34:44Z faalentijn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:34:51Z reggy: use (first), (second) and so on 2015-10-31T19:35:14Z Petit_Dejeuner`: Do you actually neeed to change things with pattern matching or just tear a data structure apart with it? Because destructuring-bind is probably what you want. That or the optima library. 2015-10-31T19:35:18Z reggy: do not return multiple values in list with fixed positions, use (values) and structures 2015-10-31T19:36:01Z reggy: also alist is usable variant 2015-10-31T19:36:59Z keen___________1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:38:25Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:38:26Z keen___________1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:38:30Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T19:38:58Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T19:39:21Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:39:21Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T19:39:30Z Xach: axion: anyway, the point of that blog post is that although it's my least-favorite option, if a maintainer is gone and can't be reached, a new maintainer can take over, you just have to get in touch. 2015-10-31T19:39:55Z Xach: what timing! 2015-10-31T19:40:00Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:40:52Z axion: :) 2015-10-31T19:42:13Z Xach: axion: so you didn't get any response whatsoever from the author? it looks like he is still doing stuff, e.g. blogging and such 2015-10-31T19:43:36Z axion: Yeah, I've repeatedly tried to make contact. I got a response back in May when I asked for a feature, and he said he would try. I didn't hear anything back, so I did it myself and sent a pull request that same month. Tried emailing him etc with no response. 2015-10-31T19:43:43Z axion: ANyway, I forked it anyway under a new name 2015-10-31T19:43:58Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:44:03Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:44:27Z Xach: axion: does that use 3b's code? 2015-10-31T19:45:19Z axion: Yes it does. 3b has sent a pull request too 2015-10-31T19:45:30Z axion: I should make note of that 2015-10-31T19:45:38Z ajf-: (destructuring-bind (data) (list :var-1 'a :var-2 'b) (do-something-with :key-1 (getf data :var-1) :key-2 (getf data :var-2)) 2015-10-31T19:45:40Z Xach: it would be good to note that, yeah. 2015-10-31T19:45:42Z ajf-: definitely this is not right 2015-10-31T19:45:53Z ajf-: LET is better in that case right 2015-10-31T19:46:08Z Xach: ajf-: more like (destructuring-bind (&key var-1 var-2) ...) 2015-10-31T19:46:15Z ajf-: ah! 2015-10-31T19:46:16Z ajf-: great 2015-10-31T19:47:03Z axion: Xach: what is the proper way to add multiple authors to a defsystem? 2015-10-31T19:47:57Z Xach: axion: Not sure. You could separate the info with a comma in the string, or use a list of multiple strings. 2015-10-31T19:48:10Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T19:48:57Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:49:52Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:49:55Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T19:50:34Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:50:55Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:51:04Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:52:01Z axion: Xach: ok I gave him credit. We were both working on it for a project at the time 2015-10-31T19:53:29Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:55:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be nice if asdf/quicklisp could be given a git url to use for a dependency. Pip (in python) works that way as, I think do the equivalent utilities in PHP and Javascript. 2015-10-31T19:56:14Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T19:56:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: You wouldn't have to accept such packages into the main tree, but it'd be useful when a fix needs to be applied and deployed. 2015-10-31T19:56:58Z wailord joined #lisp 2015-10-31T19:57:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: (Of course, I appreciate that implementing this reliably might be a ton of work :) Perhaps a compromise would be to allow the URL to a tarball of a patched version?) 2015-10-31T19:58:05Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T19:58:44Z axion: QL does not package metadata, as that would be huge, and Xach does a lot to make sure releases build successfully, have proper requirements, etc 2015-10-31T19:58:48Z dim: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it would make more sense to have a QL tool that would fetch the upstream repository for you in the "local projects" area, so that the next ql:quickload would load that version 2015-10-31T19:59:00Z Petit_Dejeuner`: fiddlerwoaroof: It doesn't seem that useful though, because I can git clone something and then quickload it. 2015-10-31T19:59:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would make getting projects to work on another machine easier 2015-10-31T19:59:24Z Petit_Dejeuner`: So long as quicklisp can find it on my computer. 2015-10-31T19:59:28Z dim: fetch for you: run `git clone` or equivalent 2015-10-31T19:59:49Z dim: anyway, gn! 2015-10-31T19:59:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's basically what I'm talking about dim 2015-10-31T20:00:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: (ql:quickload "git@somewhere:someone/somepackage") 2015-10-31T20:00:40Z Xach: How might that work on windows? CL git client? 2015-10-31T20:01:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know, I've never really programmed on Windows 2015-10-31T20:01:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also just do (ql:quickload "http://somewehre.com/package.zip") which would pull the package and unpack it in the local-projects directory or somewhere. 2015-10-31T20:01:56Z Petit_Dejeuner`: It could be optional. If git is installed it works, and if it's not then it complains. 2015-10-31T20:02:31Z Petit_Dejeuner`: Maybe it would make more sense to make another library instead of adding to ql? 2015-10-31T20:02:56Z Petit_Dejeuner`: er, system 2015-10-31T20:03:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:03:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Petit_Dejeuner`: maybe, but it seems to fall within the scope of what QL provides. 2015-10-31T20:04:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, maybe, it should be in ASDF? I still don't really understand who does what in the CL build system. 2015-10-31T20:04:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:05:21Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:05:44Z leafybasil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:08:21Z jlarocco_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:08:52Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:09:37Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:09:57Z Xach: I'd like to add more tools to make it possible for possibly someone else to write those bits 2015-10-31T20:10:10Z Xach: e.g. providing good, easy info about the source of each project 2015-10-31T20:11:10Z keen___________1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:13:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:14:34Z phoe_krk relaxes and sighs while watching #twitchinstalls 2015-10-31T20:15:03Z Petit_Dejeuner`: fiddlerwoaroof: this helped me a little, http://weitz.de/packages.html 2015-10-31T20:15:26Z Petit_Dejeuner`: It's also short. 2015-10-31T20:16:01Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:16:01Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:17:40Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T20:17:40Z lieven joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:17:50Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:19:33Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:20:06Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:20:27Z euandreh joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:21:54Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:24:01Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:24:42Z MacroLover joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:27:59Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:28:23Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:28:45Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:29:50Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:31:45Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:33:28Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T20:34:16Z grouzen joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:34:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Petit_Dejeuner`: I think one thing that would make my experience better would be if my .sbclinitrc just pushed #p"." into asdf:*central-registry* 2015-10-31T20:34:47Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T20:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or whatever the equivalent was . . . 2015-10-31T20:35:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/wa/i/ 2015-10-31T20:35:18Z Petit_Dejeuner`: Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure how current working directories work in common lisp. 2015-10-31T20:35:50Z Xach: Every file operation merges its argument with *default-pathname-defaults* before doing stuff. 2015-10-31T20:36:04Z Xach: *default-pathname-defaults* is a special variable and can be dynamically bound, which is pretty nice. 2015-10-31T20:37:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: One problem with that, though, is that I frequently use the same swank instance for several different projects 2015-10-31T20:38:05Z Petit_Dejeuner`: Alright, that's usable. 2015-10-31T20:38:25Z Petit_Dejeuner`: fiddlerwoaroof: Instead of using setf you can just shadow it with let 2015-10-31T20:39:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Petit_Dejeuner`: yeah, I was talking about telling .sbclinitrc to put #p"." into the central registry 2015-10-31T20:39:09Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:39:20Z Petit_Dejeuner`: ah, right 2015-10-31T20:39:33Z Petit_Dejeuner`: my sleep pattern's all mungled up 2015-10-31T20:39:40Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:40:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the central registry is also shadowable . . . 2015-10-31T20:42:10Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:42:35Z lispyone_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T20:43:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, if the *default-pathname-defaults* is set right, I guess having #p"." in the central registry might be usable. 2015-10-31T20:43:34Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:43:37Z BitPuffin|osx is now known as BitPuffin 2015-10-31T20:47:10Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:47:10Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T20:47:20Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:48:01Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2015-10-31T20:48:47Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:49:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there something to make writing case-like macros easier? 2015-10-31T20:49:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I.e. macros that expand to a bunch of nested Ifs 2015-10-31T20:50:11Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:50:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T20:53:14Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:53:29Z Bike: cond 2015-10-31T20:54:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's still a macro, isn't it? 2015-10-31T20:54:53Z leafybasil joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:55:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm. 2015-10-31T20:55:29Z Petit_Dejeuner`: fiddlerwoaroof: optima library 2015-10-31T20:55:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, I think the judicious application of append would solve my problem 2015-10-31T20:56:16Z Bike: how is cond being a macro possibly a problem 2015-10-31T20:56:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because I want to inject things into its arguments 2015-10-31T20:56:40Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-10-31T20:56:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: And cond will macroexpand before my macro can make the changes 2015-10-31T20:56:47Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2015-10-31T20:57:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless I 2015-10-31T20:57:28Z fiddlerwoaroof accidentally hit enter 2015-10-31T20:58:04Z Bike: i have no idea what you mean by "inject things into its arguments". 2015-10-31T20:58:17Z danlentz_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-10-31T20:58:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to parse this: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DXT 2015-10-31T20:59:30Z TDT joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:00:02Z Bike: Okay. 2015-10-31T21:00:11Z Bike: Like... what's that mean. 2015-10-31T21:00:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (case current char ((#\Space) (list :put-char #\#) ...) 2015-10-31T21:00:37Z Bike: something like (case current-char ((#\Space) (list :put-char #\+)) ...)? 2015-10-31T21:00:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2015-10-31T21:00:54Z Bike: ok, so first off, why can't you just expand into that case? 2015-10-31T21:01:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe my approach was wrong 2015-10-31T21:01:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was using macrolet to define the (on . . .) 2015-10-31T21:01:44Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:02:19Z Bike: yes, you were doing that wrong, unless the body of action-map is supposed to allow arbitrary forms (in which case this isn't very "case-like") 2015-10-31T21:02:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:02:32Z danlentz_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:02:49Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:02:51Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:03:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I have to think about what I'm trying to do again :) 2015-10-31T21:03:52Z Bike: that's design 2015-10-31T21:05:34Z Petit_Dejeuner`: Writing out the code the macro is supposed to generate, and then the code that uses the macro, and then the macro might help. 2015-10-31T21:05:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Petit_Dejeuner`: I was in the middle of that :) 2015-10-31T21:05:57Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:05:59Z Petit_Dejeuner`: yay 2015-10-31T21:06:46Z snv joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:07:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: For future reference, is there a easy way to convert a list of lists to a list like (list one . . . (list two . . . (list three . . .))) 2015-10-31T21:08:01Z faalentijn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-10-31T21:08:42Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:10:55Z faalentijn joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:12:54Z Whitesqu_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:13:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:15:59Z Whitesquall quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:16:55Z xristos quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-31T21:16:56Z nicdev_ quit (K-Lined) 2015-10-31T21:16:59Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:19:32Z xristos joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:20:33Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:21:19Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:22:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T21:23:05Z nicdev joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:23:16Z wtbrk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T21:23:53Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-10-31T21:24:58Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:27:52Z ajf-: so is there such a thing as flet* ? 2015-10-31T21:27:58Z ajf-: so I can reference functions between each other ? 2015-10-31T21:28:03Z ajf-: or perhaps can I set functions within a loop's variable clause ? 2015-10-31T21:28:37Z Shinmera: clhs labels 2015-10-31T21:28:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 2015-10-31T21:28:59Z ajf-: ah 2015-10-31T21:29:01Z ajf-: thanks 2015-10-31T21:29:31Z Whitesqu_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:36:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think I need to reread the Little Lisper. 2015-10-31T21:36:45Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-10-31T21:37:55Z cmoney joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:42:37Z ggole quit 2015-10-31T21:43:07Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:46:00Z decached joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:48:22Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:48:48Z snv quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T21:51:43Z ogamita joined #lisp 2015-10-31T21:53:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T21:58:23Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-10-31T22:02:44Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:08:34Z cmoney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T22:11:43Z SamSkulls joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:16:59Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T22:17:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:17:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:17:44Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T22:17:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:20:10Z megid0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:22:27Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:24:53Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:26:04Z keen___________1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:28:06Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:29:11Z MacroLover quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-10-31T22:35:03Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:35:10Z antonv: hi lispers 2015-10-31T22:35:18Z antonv: how is going? 2015-10-31T22:36:06Z tharu joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:36:40Z decached quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-10-31T22:37:23Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:37:49Z cadadar1 joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:38:39Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:38:51Z cadadar quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:39:11Z antonv: what's new in the lisp world? 2015-10-31T22:40:14Z Xach: antonv: sbcl 1.3.0 is out today!! 2015-10-31T22:40:32Z Xach: quicklisp is updated today too! (but the announcement will be tomorrow) 2015-10-31T22:40:42Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ 2015-10-31T22:40:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:41:35Z hitecnologys: Oh, SBCL 1.3.0 is out? 2015-10-31T22:41:37Z hitecnologys: Neat. 2015-10-31T22:41:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:42:23Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`,thanks but that's for August 2015-10-31T22:42:29Z antonv: :) 2015-10-31T22:42:57Z Petit_Dejeuner`: eh, new is relative 2015-10-31T22:42:59Z antonv: to all: what do you program now in CL? 2015-10-31T22:43:06Z ajf- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T22:43:11Z Petit_Dejeuner`: "amd64 linux" sounds good 2015-10-31T22:43:58Z antonv: "amd64 linux" - what it is about? 2015-10-31T22:44:21Z Petit_Dejeuner`: I meant the sbcl release notes. 2015-10-31T22:44:39Z Petit_Dejeuner`: it's been ported to arm64 2015-10-31T22:44:52Z White_Flame: amd64 != arm64? 2015-10-31T22:44:59Z Petit_Dejeuner`: I'm losing it. 2015-10-31T22:46:14Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: websites, video games, I used it in a CTF game earlier this year 2015-10-31T22:46:29Z Xach: antonv: amusing websites! 2015-10-31T22:46:37Z Petit_Dejeuner`: ^tons of them 2015-10-31T22:46:42Z Dynamicmetaflow joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:46:48Z White_Flame: antonv: inference compilers, distibuted architecture 2015-10-31T22:46:56Z antonv: links plase! 2015-10-31T22:47:15Z antonv: White_Flame: distributed achetecture? ineresting! 2015-10-31T22:47:31Z antonv: White_Flame: inference? logic inference? 2015-10-31T22:47:42Z White_Flame: yes 2015-10-31T22:47:58Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-10-31T22:48:09Z Petit_Dejeuner`: https://github.com/Halfwake/push-media 2015-10-31T22:48:11Z antonv: White_Flame: some more info (sentences) please? 2015-10-31T22:48:25Z pjb: drmeister: neither #P"sys:;kernel/init.lsp" or #P"sys:kernel/init.lsp" are conforming logical pathnames. So whatever you want. 2015-10-31T22:48:31Z White_Flame: antonv: there's some older info at grindwork.com 2015-10-31T22:48:53Z White_Flame: but all the stuff we've been crunching on hasn't hit the site; we're not really a web-based business 2015-10-31T22:48:55Z profess joined #lisp 2015-10-31T22:50:20Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/ -> Manhattan Project) 2015-10-31T22:50:27Z pjb: drmeister: If you consider real logical pathnames, then: (mapcar (function pathname-directory) '(#P"SYS:;KERNEL;INIT.LSP" #P"SYS:KERNEL;INIT.LSP")) #| --> ((:relative "KERNEL") (:absolute "KERNEL")) |# 2015-10-31T22:51:21Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: what is CTF 2015-10-31T22:51:48Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: capture the flag, breaking into computers game 2015-10-31T22:52:37Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-10-31T22:52:39Z Petit_Dejeuner`: https://ctf.isis.poly.edu/ 2015-10-31T22:53:49Z antonv: White_Flame: looks interesting, so you try to help synthesising 2015-10-31T22:53:49Z antonv: programming solutions? 2015-10-31T22:55:02Z cadadar1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T22:57:49Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: what do you do exactly in the area of CTF? 2015-10-31T22:58:28Z lispyone_ joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:00:32Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: have you created a game? The link is difficult to understand. 2015-10-31T23:01:59Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: One of the vulnerabilities was a timing attack. (A password with the first character correct takes longer to fail than a password with the first and second character correct takes longer to fail than a password with n many characters correct.) I automated trying to login with lisp. 2015-10-31T23:02:11Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: I'm working on making some now. 2015-10-31T23:03:20Z Petit_Dejeuner`: If you're interested in this sort of thing you might like the following. Although a lot of it is C based. http://overthewire.org/wargames/ 2015-10-31T23:03:24Z lispyone_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:06:06Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:08:48Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: vulneragilities? 2015-10-31T23:09:16Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: vulnerabilities? 2015-10-31T23:09:37Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:10:21Z tsoutseki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T23:12:43Z samssammerz joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:17:12Z kristof joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:17:37Z Petit_Dejeuner`: antonv: mistakes in the code that allow someone else to do things they aren't supposed to 2015-10-31T23:18:31Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:18:33Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:18:34Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2015-10-31T23:18:34Z vydd joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:23:11Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:25:10Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-10-31T23:27:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:28:24Z mac_ified quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T23:28:58Z antonv: Petit_Dejeuner`: I understand the word, but what do you do about it in CL? 2015-10-31T23:29:02Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:29:36Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-10-31T23:29:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:32:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:43:12Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-10-31T23:50:57Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-10-31T23:51:14Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:52:52Z jocuman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2015-10-31T23:53:34Z znpy joined #lisp 2015-10-31T23:55:10Z wailord quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)