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2015-09-01T00:15:33Z jason_m: Does read-line only recognize LF as a line ending?  I'm working on reading through a file that has CR LF line endings.
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2015-09-01T00:17:52Z jasom: jason_m: which implementation are you using?
2015-09-01T00:18:28Z jasom: jason_m: most (all?) implementations will recognize CRLF by default on windows, and many of the remaining can be configured to do so on other hosts
2015-09-01T00:18:53Z jason_m: jasom: I was using sbcl on windows
2015-09-01T00:19:14Z jason_m: when i would read a line, it left a CR on the end
2015-09-01T00:20:25Z XenophonF: hey all, does sbcl on freebsd provide an interface to raw sockets, specifically divert sockets?
2015-09-01T00:21:30Z jasom: hmm I thought sbcl could specify that in the external-format, but they only list :replacement as an option in the manual
2015-09-01T00:21:33Z XenophonF: i've been looking through the sb-bsd-sockets documentation, but i'm pretty new to network-layer programming in general
2015-09-01T00:21:34Z jasom checks the sources
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2015-09-01T00:25:03Z jasom: sources only check for :replacement.  I'd say if you want line-ending conversion, you'll have to handle it yourself.  I know that at least ccl can handle this case though.
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2015-09-01T00:25:48Z jasom: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.5.html  <-- there's where you can set line-termination on ccl
2015-09-01T00:28:43Z jason_m: jasom: That behavior is exactly what I'd like to have.  Out of curiosity, what does :replacement do?  Is that passed to open?  to read-line?  Google is failing me.
2015-09-01T00:29:16Z jasom: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ <-- there and C-f to search for :replacement
2015-09-01T00:30:08Z jasom: it will tell sbcl to replace all decoding errors with the given character to allow decoding of "mostly correct" streams without having to handle conditions
2015-09-01T00:30:20Z jason_m: i see, thanks
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2015-09-01T01:02:08Z drmeister: The "Clasp MPS garbage collector interface builder, static analyzer" analyzed 177 C++ source files and identifies all class/struct's that need to be managed by MPS.  It serializes the intermediate results using the Common Lisp printer (with a little help for hash-tables) and generates 434MB of analysis.
2015-09-01T01:02:10Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/75e1447720e7ad29eb0c
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2015-09-01T01:02:55Z drmeister: Make that 320MB of data - I added one too many files to the analysis.
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2015-09-01T01:03:44Z drmeister: Thanks for your help earlier folks, the printer/reader now appear to be working fine.
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2015-09-01T01:42:34Z jason_m: is the CR character not even recognized by the standard?  I'm looking at the list of Standard Characters: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_ac.htm
2015-09-01T01:43:19Z Zhivago: jason: Yes.
2015-09-01T01:44:30Z jason_m: Yes ... it is recognized?  Playing in my repl (sbcL) it looks like #\return is recognized.
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2015-09-01T01:45:14Z Zhivago: Implementations may recognise additional character names.
2015-09-01T01:45:21Z Zhivago: There's also code-char, etc.
2015-09-01T01:46:45Z jason_m: Zhivago: I still don't know how to interpret your yes.  Are you saying it is correct that the standard does not recognize recognize CR (although implementations may still do so)?
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2015-09-01T02:11:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to restrict clack middleware to a specific url prefix?
2015-09-01T02:12:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. something like mounting a blueprint in Flask
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2015-09-01T02:12:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: (specifically, I want to use the directory middleware to serve files off of http://servername.com/static
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2015-09-01T02:16:58Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: There is a static middleware, does that do what you are looking for? http://clacklisp.org/tutorial/08-using-clack-middleware-static.html
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2015-09-01T02:22:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, I think it is
2015-09-01T02:23:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guessed I focussed on clack.app.directory.
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2015-09-01T02:24:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm really enjoing the LISP web development experience
2015-09-01T02:24:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: (especially compared to the PHP I have to write to pay the bills)
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2015-09-01T02:26:15Z kyfho: really?
2015-09-01T02:26:24Z kyfho: what web tools?
2015-09-01T02:26:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clack / Ningle / Hunchentoot or Woo
2015-09-01T02:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: With Parenscript Lass and various HTML generation libraries
2015-09-01T02:27:04Z kyfho: I spent hours trying to get a puppet learning vm to work
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2015-09-01T02:27:17Z kyfho: bizarre cert errors after lesson one froze my progress
2015-09-01T02:27:25Z kyfho: thier web gui crashes
2015-09-01T02:27:28Z kyfho: barf
2015-09-01T02:27:32Z kyfho: what a waste of my life
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2015-09-01T02:29:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: The best part is that I already habitually send my definitions to SLIME, so I don't have to wait for any kind of deployment process
2015-09-01T02:29:27Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: I just started playing with clack / lucerne.  So far so good.
2015-09-01T02:29:30Z jason_m: No ssl yet though
2015-09-01T02:29:40Z resttime: Web dev with fukamachiware is definitely great
2015-09-01T02:29:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: My solution to ssl is to put it behind NGINX
2015-09-01T02:29:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-01T02:29:59Z resttime: jason_m: no ssl? I was under the impression that there was SSL support
2015-09-01T02:30:19Z jason_m: resttime: That may be, I just haven't tried yet is all I'm saying.
2015-09-01T02:30:33Z resttime: ahhhh I see, alright
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2015-09-01T02:31:52Z resttime: Well I think fukamachiware is great because I managed to create a primitive booru imageboard this one time when i couldn't sleep
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2015-09-01T02:33:27Z resttime: Though I guess one I kind of wish would be for ningle to allow clearing of a single router
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2015-09-01T02:33:48Z resttime: *route
2015-09-01T02:34:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can't you SETF it to nil?
2015-09-01T02:34:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: (Haven't tried, just assume that's how you'd do it)
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2015-09-01T02:38:33Z jason_m: resttime: fiddlerwoaroof I was just looking into that with Lucerne.  Lucerne uses myway for the route mapping and it also seemed to lack an interface function for removing a route.  Although I think you can get the entire mapper list and manipulate it yourself.
2015-09-01T02:38:36Z resttime: I forgot so I just tested it, and it doesn't work
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2015-09-01T02:40:09Z resttime: jason_m: That's probably the way I think, unless there might have been in a closure last time I looked so you wouldn't be able to touch the data
2015-09-01T02:42:16Z jason_m: resttime: You might be right, the :mapper symbol exported by myway isn't the mapper object, but the mapper data structure.  I think it is buried in a closure.  I think it is here: https://github.com/fukamachi/myway/blob/master/src/util.lisp
2015-09-01T02:42:42Z jason_m: the mapper is whatever is returned from make-collector
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2015-09-01T02:43:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, in ningle routing is done by just (setf-ing) a lambda into the correct place
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2015-09-01T02:46:00Z resttime: jason_m: Yeah, so unless I'm missing something lispy I don't think one can actually remove a route
2015-09-01T02:46:31Z resttime: Errr, though in defense that's the way it was designed since I looked at sinatra as well
2015-09-01T02:46:42Z resttime: Just something that kinda bugged me that's all lol
2015-09-01T02:47:43Z resttime: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, don't forget to setf to the route everytime if you pass a function as a lambda
2015-09-01T02:48:18Z resttime: since the route will use the "copy" of that function before the changes (since it's a lambda that get's passed)
2015-09-01T02:49:03Z resttime: err I mean more precisely that it will continue to use whatever that copy was
2015-09-01T02:49:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah I have a "def-route" macro that hides everything
2015-09-01T02:49:50Z resttime: Neat, I remember it tripping me up at first
2015-09-01T02:50:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, whenever I find myself typing the same things over and over again I write a macro
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2015-09-01T03:02:38Z resttime: Oh, removing a specific single route can't happen but you can clear all routes at once, hope I didn't give impression otherwise
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2015-09-01T03:20:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to get a version of *standard-output* that can be treated like a file?
2015-09-01T03:21:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: (besides opening "/dev/stdout")
2015-09-01T03:22:30Z rme: I don't understand.  You can bind *standard-output* to any stream you want.
2015-09-01T03:22:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, I have the opposite problem, I want to pass *standard-output* to a function
2015-09-01T03:24:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I'm getting the error: "#<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: The value #<SWANK/GRAY::SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM {100E0A0813}>  is not of type (or VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME FILE-STREAM)."
2015-09-01T03:24:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nevermind, I think the problem is that the function I'm passing it into expects a pathname
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2015-09-01T03:28:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-01T03:29:11Z rme: bonjour
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2015-09-01T03:38:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-09-01T03:39:12Z beach: drmeister: So the MPS version of Clasp is working?
2015-09-01T03:39:24Z drmeister: I've got the Common Lisp printer/reader of Clasp working pretty well for serialization of data.   It's writing and reading about 350MB of data - all S-expressions and chock full of #x=/#x# labels.
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2015-09-01T03:39:46Z beach: Great!
2015-09-01T03:40:09Z drmeister: MPS is not working yet. The static analyzer is working and generating code but I had to do some freshening up of the generated code because I changed the names of some C++ template structs.
2015-09-01T03:40:36Z drmeister: Also I haven't finished the MPS implementation of the side-stack - so it will crash as soon as I start running it.   That will take a few days.
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2015-09-01T03:40:54Z drmeister: Right now I'm tied up writing proposals again for HIV and splitting water.  I live a crazy life.
2015-09-01T03:44:43Z drmeister: I need one of my "get rich really, really slow by doing lots of hard work and trying to fix some of the worlds serious problems" to work and then get a secretary.
2015-09-01T03:46:38Z beach: In that order?
2015-09-01T03:50:37Z drmeister: I think so - or find one who will work for free.
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2015-09-01T03:51:40Z drmeister: And hire some programmers - yeah.
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2015-09-01T03:52:57Z drmeister: I have enough to keep people busy now.  There must be some programmers out there who want to do something more meaningful than write software to sell advertising.
2015-09-01T03:54:03Z drmeister: Don't mind me.  I'm just grumpy
2015-09-01T03:55:12Z drmeister: Writing proposals seems largely pointless given how little money the NIH has these days.
2015-09-01T03:55:30Z beach: Maybe you should move to a different country.
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2015-09-01T03:56:49Z drmeister: I did that once already.  It worked for a while...
2015-09-01T03:57:14Z rme is willing to give it a try
2015-09-01T03:57:39Z brucem: drmeister: I get a bit jealous of the massive corruption that I see around me in the developing world.
2015-09-01T03:57:42Z beach: drmeister: I have lived in 5 different countries.  It's nice to have a change from time to time.
2015-09-01T03:57:46Z rme: Not to write ad software though.
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2015-09-01T03:58:03Z drmeister: Anyway, I'll stop grumping now.
2015-09-01T03:58:05Z brucem: drmeister: Malaysia's Prime Minister taking $700-800 million ... Thailand's massive corruption ... the things I could do with even 1% of that.
2015-09-01T03:58:35Z drmeister: brucem: Yeah, it's just obscene.
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2015-09-01T03:59:07Z brucem: drmeister: Occasionally, I think about sending them a letter and asking for sponsorship.
2015-09-01T03:59:09Z drmeister: It will give them no comfort when they are old and dying of cancer.
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2015-09-01T04:02:47Z rme: Ha.  "Should have funded me, my dear fellow!"
2015-09-01T04:04:00Z beach: :)
2015-09-01T04:04:08Z brucem: rme: It wouldn't have needed much funding to keep you happy working on ClozureCL. Or me on Dylan. Or Ravenbrook on MPS. Or drmeister to have some minions. :)
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2015-09-01T04:08:29Z rme: brucem: Yeah. it's unfortunate.  Hopefully it won't come to writing advertising software.
2015-09-01T04:09:18Z drmeister: Minions!  There's another freakin' tragedy.  That movie has pulled in more than a billion dollars US and it's awful.
2015-09-01T04:10:13Z drmeister: It was promising at the start but went to mediocrity really fast.
2015-09-01T04:10:16Z rme: My kids saw it in France this summer.  I asked my son Daniel (9) what language it was in, and he said he didn't know.  I'm not sure what that means...
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2015-09-01T04:12:18Z drmeister: It thought it was French - I had 11 years of it in grade school in Canada.  I would not recognize that language anywhere.
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2015-09-01T04:18:31Z drmeister: The world is full of tragedies.
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2015-09-01T04:18:52Z beach: drmeister: [Back to the topic] I am working on a very precise data-flow analysis of nested functions so that I do not have to be conservative about what variables can escape etc.
2015-09-01T04:19:17Z beach: drmeister: It requires a lot of thinking, so you don't see much progress in the form of code at the moment.
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2015-09-01T04:19:50Z drmeister: beach: That's ok, you work at your pace, I'll work at mine.
2015-09-01T04:20:08Z beach: Sure.  Just saying.
2015-09-01T04:20:47Z drmeister: I understand.
2015-09-01T04:20:49Z beach: This analysis is what will make it possible to remove those assignments of T/NIL to variables that are subsequently tested for NIL-ness.
2015-09-01T04:21:03Z beach: ... among other things.
2015-09-01T04:21:35Z drmeister: That is very exciting.
2015-09-01T04:21:36Z beach: I could have put in a kludge for the special case, but I try to avoid special cases where I can.
2015-09-01T04:22:15Z drmeister: Because once those are gone and the redundant type checks - then there's nothing left but the essential calculation.
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2015-09-01T04:22:52Z beach: Right.  This same data-flow analysis will be the basis for the type inferencer I hope.
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2015-09-01T04:23:18Z p_l: beach: sounds awesome!
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2015-09-01T04:24:23Z beach: drmeister: I need to be careful about my own investment in time since I am the only one working on this.  Therefore, I can't afford too many special kludges when there is a more general solution.
2015-09-01T04:26:24Z beach: drmeister: Furthermore, kludges can't be published so can't be used to justify my salary.  General solutions might work for that.
2015-09-01T04:26:29Z drmeister: I'm using that more and more as a guiding principle.
2015-09-01T04:26:59Z beach: Good! :)
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2015-09-01T04:35:03Z beach: p_l: Thanks!  I'll be sure to report progress.
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2015-09-01T05:13:34Z loke: hello
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2015-09-01T05:17:26Z drmeister: Not bad - the MPS version of Clasp compiles with the programmatically generated 18,500 lines of C++ code that interface MPS to Clasp.
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2015-09-01T05:18:15Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-09-01T05:18:15Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: I believe that ecl/src/lsp/iolib.lsp  in the sharp-s-reader reader macro where it says (let ((l (read stream)))  it should be (let ((l (read stream t nil t)))..   Otherwise things like (defstruct foo a) (read-from-string "(#1=\"Hello\" #S(FOO :A #1#)) won't work.
2015-09-01T05:18:19Z drmeister: It will crash because I'm still missing some code that I have to hand write to implement a stack-like pool using MPS but all the old code that I wrote last year still seems to work.
2015-09-01T05:18:23Z drmeister: Hi jackdaniel.
2015-09-01T05:18:56Z jackdaniel: ok, I'll check that, thanks :)
2015-09-01T05:19:38Z drmeister: Sure.  Note the sharp-a-reader function in ecl/src/lsp/iolib.lsp   calls (READ stream t nil t)  but sharp-s-reader does not currently do that.
2015-09-01T05:20:23Z drmeister: When I changed sharp-s-reader in Clasp I got the expected behavior wrt #x= labels defined outside of #S(...) and #x# used within the #S(...)
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2015-09-01T05:21:11Z jackdaniel: yeah, that seems a valid fix
2015-09-01T05:21:33Z jackdaniel: btw, when do you plan to add #+clasp-min feature so we can start merging portable part?
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2015-09-01T05:22:18Z jackdaniel: I'll add this testcase to ansi-tests btw
2015-09-01T05:22:29Z drmeister: A couple of weeks?   I've got some really important deadlines coming up.
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2015-09-01T05:22:46Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-09-01T05:23:37Z drmeister: I never stop coding but I do loose some ability to focus and respond when I have to work on other things.
2015-09-01T05:23:53Z drmeister: Merging the source code will take a lot of back and forth.
2015-09-01T05:24:30Z jackdaniel: well, I'm willing to do that, but not without this – some #+ecl-min on clasp and #+ecl-min on clasp differ
2015-09-01T05:24:40Z jackdaniel: and changing them to clasp ones breaks the build
2015-09-01T05:24:52Z jackdaniel: not without clasp-min in place°
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2015-09-01T07:21:23Z kami: Good morning #lisp
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2015-09-01T07:21:59Z jackdaniel: o/ kami
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2015-09-01T08:30:27Z shka: hello
2015-09-01T08:30:55Z shka: i was wondering
2015-09-01T08:31:29Z shka: common type for adjustable, non-adjustable and fill-pointer vectors is a little bit annoying
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2015-09-01T08:31:54Z Shinmera: It is, especially because implementations can't optimise it well.
2015-09-01T08:32:11Z Shinmera: Throw in displaced vectors as well
2015-09-01T08:33:03Z shka: well, i'm more annoyed by the fact that i need to deal with those in slightly separate way
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2015-09-01T08:33:24Z shka: sure i can write macro to make this a little bit less cumbersome
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2015-09-01T08:33:48Z shka: but perhaps someone figured out how to deal with this already
2015-09-01T08:34:45Z shka: i was thinking about wrapping those in clos classes, but not sure what will happen to the performance
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2015-09-01T09:23:51Z jackdaniel: wolves will step down from the mountains and the dark age will began ;-)
2015-09-01T09:23:59Z jackdaniel: shka: you can always benchmark it
2015-09-01T09:24:05Z jackdaniel: begin°
2015-09-01T09:27:00Z shka: hmmm
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2015-09-01T09:43:24Z loz: any thoughts on jscl? can it use js libraries?
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2015-09-01T09:48:06Z jackdaniel: it was far from complete last time I've checked
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2015-09-01T09:49:00Z dim: no loop, no format, etc
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2015-09-01T09:51:09Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/blob/master/jqconsole.min.js - he he he, I had temptation to M-q M-x mark-whole-buffer TAB
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2015-09-01T10:23:28Z pjb: shka: the idea is that you should deal with vectors without taking into account whether they're displaced or have a fill pointer or not.
2015-09-01T10:23:35Z pjb: That's the whole point of the thing.
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2015-09-01T10:40:08Z shka: pjb: yeah, problem is that if i want to (for instance) insert element in the middle of the vector, i need to either push or push_extend
2015-09-01T10:40:55Z jackdaniel: insert
2015-09-01T10:40:56Z jackdaniel: element
2015-09-01T10:41:00Z jackdaniel: in the middle ?
2015-09-01T10:41:06Z jackdaniel: of the vector? :D
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2015-09-01T10:42:07Z jackdaniel: that will be very inefficient - if you have such operations and you can afford sequential access, then better use lists
2015-09-01T10:42:26Z jackdaniel: by such operations I mean insertion in the middle of sequence
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2015-09-01T10:44:38Z pjb: You would obviously use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
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2015-09-01T10:45:58Z shka: jackdaniel: it is ok if vector has limited size
2015-09-01T10:46:18Z shka: and lists does not help
2015-09-01T10:46:20Z jackdaniel: inserting in the middle of a vector requires copying of elements
2015-09-01T10:46:27Z shka: if i need to have random access
2015-09-01T10:46:31Z shka: i know
2015-09-01T10:46:46Z jackdaniel: vector is insuitable for such usecase imho
2015-09-01T10:47:15Z shka: but if i have to copy 30 elements once a few seconds vs i have to access random element in the sequence ten times per second
2015-09-01T10:47:32Z shka: it is pretty simple use case
2015-09-01T10:48:04Z shka: consider creating palette for the image
2015-09-01T10:48:09Z shka: i can use hash table
2015-09-01T10:48:25Z shka: but merging hash tables is not as fast as merging sorted vectors
2015-09-01T10:48:37Z shka: and maximum size is limited anyway
2015-09-01T10:49:01Z shka: and tree is not efficient
2015-09-01T10:49:14Z shka: you have to allocate pointer for each fixnum
2015-09-01T10:49:21Z shka: which is slow
2015-09-01T10:49:29Z pjb: There
2015-09-01T10:49:40Z pjb: 's not only check-type, there is also assert.
2015-09-01T10:49:58Z pjb: (assert (array-has-fill-pointer-p v))
2015-09-01T10:50:02Z shka: so in such case inserting element in the middle of the vector is the best option avaible
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2015-09-01T10:50:59Z jackdaniel: you could use list with a reminder (basically list pointing to different parts of your list)
2015-09-01T10:51:00Z pjb: And if you need a type/class, you can always wrap your data in a structure or clos instance/
2015-09-01T10:51:00Z shka: pjb: that's what i was thinking about
2015-09-01T10:51:24Z shka: jackdaniel: overcomplicated, and still not as efficient
2015-09-01T10:51:36Z shka: besides serialization to file will be slower
2015-09-01T10:51:54Z jackdaniel: shka: when I see phrase "inserting element in the middle of the vector" it phisically hurts me
2015-09-01T10:52:02Z shka: i'm sorry
2015-09-01T10:52:07Z shka: i didn't want to hurt you
2015-09-01T10:52:14Z jackdaniel: it really is inefficient, but do as you please
2015-09-01T10:52:17Z pjb: jackdaniel: don't. There may be free space in the middle.
2015-09-01T10:52:33Z pjb: (defun delete-element (e v) (nsubstitute nil e v))
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2015-09-01T10:52:56Z pjb: then insert element can push elements only till the next nil.
2015-09-01T10:53:12Z shka: jackdaniel: it can be efficient if you have guaranteen on maximum size of the vector
2015-09-01T10:53:16Z jackdaniel: pjb: or vector might be really baked by a list, we're not talking about implementation details but about structure
2015-09-01T10:53:28Z shka: in such cases O(n) means not that much
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2015-09-01T10:54:02Z pjb: The point is that lisp is a low level  programming language, and as sicp teaches us, we must write our own high level abstractions.
2015-09-01T10:54:19Z pjb: Otherwise, you may always try wolfram.
2015-09-01T10:54:28Z shka: nah, i like lisp
2015-09-01T10:54:38Z shka: i just want to know what would be optimal route
2015-09-01T10:54:47Z shka: i was thinking about wrapping in classes
2015-09-01T10:55:04Z shka: and if that does not look like stupid idea, i will do that
2015-09-01T10:55:12Z pjb: it does not.
2015-09-01T10:55:18Z shka: cool
2015-09-01T10:56:05Z shka: jackdaniel: also, sorting list of fixnums is slower than sorting vector of fixnums
2015-09-01T10:56:29Z shka: so there is tradeoff to be made
2015-09-01T10:56:39Z shka: but if vector has like 100 elements
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2015-09-01T10:56:49Z shka: it is really hard to see advantage of list
2015-09-01T10:57:17Z jackdaniel: unless you create 1000 workers doing the same thing
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2015-09-01T10:57:30Z splittist: shka: what about flexichains?
2015-09-01T10:57:31Z jackdaniel: and there are other sorted structures if you look for order
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2015-09-01T10:57:51Z shka: splittist: those are nice for large sets of data
2015-09-01T10:58:03Z shka: so it's different case
2015-09-01T10:58:44Z shka: jackdaniel: well, vast number of tasks is sequential by nature
2015-09-01T10:58:55Z jackdaniel: (?)
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2015-09-01T10:59:55Z shka: (i usually want to do this thing with my vector, next this, and this, and this and finally i have my resoult that is actually usefull)
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2015-09-01T12:56:11Z zickzackv: shka, what about a tree?
2015-09-01T12:56:41Z zickzackv: ... for storing your data
2015-09-01T12:58:11Z shka: zickzackv: there are two problems with all linked data structures
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2015-09-01T12:58:21Z shka: 1) prefetcher
2015-09-01T12:58:34Z shka: 2) additional pointer required
2015-09-01T12:59:56Z shka: unless you have large number of elements, all linked structures will have inferior performance
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2015-09-01T13:01:41Z Shinmera: You can't count on the cache anyway because the implementation is most definitely not going to store values directly in the array.
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2015-09-01T13:04:03Z zickzackv: shka: last try, what about a heap :-)
2015-09-01T13:04:42Z zickzackv: shka: at least its not linked.
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2015-09-01T13:10:59Z shka: zickzackv: but i just need sorted vector
2015-09-01T13:11:07Z shka: so i can binary search
2015-09-01T13:11:20Z shka: and serialize fast
2015-09-01T13:11:49Z shka: i'm surprised that this is such a controversial topic
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2015-09-01T13:14:34Z Shinmera: shka: by the way, array-utils has vector-push-position and vector-push-extend-position.
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2015-09-01T13:14:40Z jackdaniel: it might be a hint, that you may be wrong (obviously hints might be wrong)
2015-09-01T13:15:08Z shka: Shinmera: i know it, quite nice lib
2015-09-01T13:15:11Z Shinmera: Actually it only has vector-push-extend-position
2015-09-01T13:15:19Z shka: glad that you published it :-)
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2015-09-01T13:35:06Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-09-01T13:48:35Z Xach spies https://github.com/danshapero/cl-hamt
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2015-09-01T13:50:00Z eudoxia: hm, apparently cl-travis doesn't work anymore because the Travis people have disabled sudo
2015-09-01T13:50:06Z eudoxia: sigh, time to move all my projects to Roswell
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2015-09-01T13:56:43Z luis: So, sad.
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2015-09-01T13:57:40Z luis: FWIW, it should be straightforward to get rid of sudo for SBCL and CCL, at least.
2015-09-01T13:58:02Z eudoxia: hmmm, those are pretty much the only ones i use
2015-09-01T13:58:34Z jackdaniel: what is sudo need for btw?
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2015-09-01T13:59:30Z Shinmera: For some reason it installs them in the system instead of in a user folder.
2015-09-01T13:59:34Z Shinmera: So it uses sudo for that.
2015-09-01T13:59:59Z jackdaniel: mhm
2015-09-01T14:00:04Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-01T14:02:14Z luis: The main reason why it uses sudo is that it apt-get installs some stuff.
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2015-09-01T14:04:45Z eudoxia: tfw no user-level apt-get
2015-09-01T14:04:52Z eudoxia: why must life be so terrible
2015-09-01T14:04:57Z luis: yeah, that sucks.
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2015-09-01T14:37:05Z shka: Xach: what are those HAMT structures?
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2015-09-01T14:37:24Z Xach: I do not know!
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2015-09-01T14:37:48Z shka: oh pitty
2015-09-01T14:37:54Z jackdaniel: that's why he spies I think ;)
2015-09-01T14:37:55Z shka: i like learning new data structures
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2015-09-01T14:40:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: ,
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2015-09-01T14:42:15Z lambda-smith: Xach: I dream of the day when I could use Quicklisp to install the latest version of SBCL in a userspace, without requiring a sudo
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2015-09-01T14:43:12Z sjl: I'm just getting into Common Lisp and it seems annoying to have :test #'equal strewn all over the place.  How do CL people usually deal with that?
2015-09-01T14:43:32Z Zhivago: Repetition? By writing functions or macros.
2015-09-01T14:43:44Z Xach: sjl: sometimes I make a function like (defun make-string-table (&key case-sensitive) ...) and have it make hash tables for me.
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2015-09-01T14:44:07Z sjl: Define stuff like (defun sane-member (o l) (member o l :test #'equal))?
2015-09-01T14:44:41Z Xach: sjl: EQUAL is not the only sane option to member.
2015-09-01T14:44:54Z Shinmera: lambda-smith: For now you can use http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/85
2015-09-01T14:44:59Z jackdaniel: sjl: making keys 'symbols makes access much faster
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2015-09-01T14:45:25Z sjl: jackdaniel: sure, if you can represent what you need as a symbol
2015-09-01T14:45:45Z jackdaniel: sjl: yeah, but eql works on symbols, so it's sane default :)
2015-09-01T14:45:59Z lambda-smith: Shinmera: Wow, thanks mate. I'll check it out.
2015-09-01T14:46:02Z jackdaniel: sjl: btw, what you can't represent as a symbol but it works as string?
2015-09-01T14:46:04Z sjl: equal also works on symbols (and lots of other stuff)
2015-09-01T14:46:10Z jackdaniel: as a string°
2015-09-01T14:46:34Z sjl: so making eql the default is trading safety/flexibility for speed by default, which seems odd.  but maybe that's just The Way It Is.
2015-09-01T14:46:59Z sjl: jackdaniel: right now I'm making a little toy project that builds/runs/draws deterministic finite automata
2015-09-01T14:47:17Z sjl: and using a list to represent e.g. the list of states in the machine
2015-09-01T14:47:23Z Shinmera: In the standard case EQL is sufficient for me.
2015-09-01T14:47:26Z lambda-smith: sjl: equalp saves my ass when I need to test whether 2 lists/vectors are equal or not
2015-09-01T14:47:28Z Shinmera: So I'm fine with that being the default.
2015-09-01T14:47:44Z lambda-smith: though for most purposes I use eql
2015-09-01T14:47:49Z sjl: For one machine I could just make the state names symbols, but when you union DFAs the resulting states are pairs
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2015-09-01T14:48:23Z Shinmera: lambda-smith: watch out, EQUALP on strings is case-insensitive.
2015-09-01T14:48:30Z sjl: so machine one has states (a b), machine two has states (c d), their union would have states ((a b) (a c) (b c) (b d))
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2015-09-01T14:48:50Z jackdaniel: sjl: that's why there is option to change predicate :) but for most cases eql is just OK, and using equal is an obvious hint, that things might be little slower
2015-09-01T14:48:51Z sjl: so when I'm checking for membership eql doesn't really work
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2015-09-01T14:49:11Z sjl: yeah, I get it
2015-09-01T14:49:31Z sjl: It just seems strange that "the thing that works with everything at the cost of speed" isn't the default
2015-09-01T14:49:40Z Shinmera: Usually when you have custom data structures it's a good idea to abstract all possible access to its underlying form with functions anyway.
2015-09-01T14:49:52Z Shinmera: That way you can change it easily later without ruining your overlaying programs.
2015-09-01T14:49:53Z lambda-smith: Shinmera: wait, really? Oh man I didn't know that
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2015-09-01T14:50:01Z sjl: and "the thing that will silently behave strangely on some things really fast" is the default
2015-09-01T14:50:01Z jackdaniel: sjl: probably underlying different philosophy, it's natural for me for instance
2015-09-01T14:50:12Z newcup: things like repeating which :test to use can be abstracted away, usually
2015-09-01T14:50:27Z Shinmera: newcup: They can, and should.
2015-09-01T14:50:41Z sjl: yeah I'm ending up with http://i.imgur.com/lSR4mFp.png at the head of this file
2015-09-01T14:50:43Z Zhivago: EQL is what you want for general identity.
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2015-09-01T14:51:00Z jackdaniel: sjl: and if you have really big hashtable then speed is important
2015-09-01T14:51:09Z Zhivago: EQUAL is what you want for many standard forms of equivalence.
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2015-09-01T14:51:29Z Zhivago: They mean very different things.
2015-09-01T14:52:23Z sjl: jackdaniel: sure, I can profile and then worry if it becomes a problem
2015-09-01T14:53:37Z Zhivago: Note that a hash-table using 'equals is probably not going to be implemented as a hash-table. :)
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2015-09-01T14:55:24Z Shinmera: Why not? SXHASH for example produces the same hash for EQUAL objects.
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2015-09-01T15:00:46Z jackdaniel: it's in the notes: "The hash codes returned by sxhash are not necessarily related to any hashing strategy used by any other function in Common Lisp."
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2015-09-01T15:02:03Z Shinmera: I know that
2015-09-01T15:02:18Z Shinmera: I'm just not seeing why you wouldn't just do a hash table like always for an EQUAL test.
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2015-09-01T15:02:59Z lambda-smith: Hm... how can I "destruct" a group of lists within a list into a map?
2015-09-01T15:03:29Z lambda-smith: for example I have '('(1 2) '(3 4))
2015-09-01T15:03:29Z jackdaniel: lambda-smith: destructure-bind
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2015-09-01T15:04:10Z Shinmera: Isn't that a few quotes too many?
2015-09-01T15:04:11Z jackdaniel: (destructure-bind (a b) '((1 2) (3 4)) (map …))
2015-09-01T15:04:30Z jackdaniel: ing°
2015-09-01T15:04:48Z lambda-smith: There are two lists in a list
2015-09-01T15:05:05Z jackdaniel: lambda-smith: if you quote outer form, lists inside won't get evaluated
2015-09-01T15:05:10Z sjl: lambda-smith: you're saying you want to turn a list of (key value) pairs into a map?
2015-09-01T15:05:22Z lambda-smith: Nah, a list of lists
2015-09-01T15:05:32Z jackdaniel: lambda-smith: (destructuring-bind (a b) '((1 2) (3 4)) (list a b))
2015-09-01T15:05:54Z sjl: yeah, s/pairs/two-element lists/ sorry
2015-09-01T15:06:00Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: that returns what you input.
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2015-09-01T15:06:03Z lambda-smith: Oh, so I don't need quote inside the quote'd list, yeah got it
2015-09-01T15:06:16Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yeah, put map instead of list
2015-09-01T15:06:28Z jackdaniel: copy/paste error (:
2015-09-01T15:06:36Z Shinmera: Do you want ((a b c) (1 2 3)) => ((a . 1) (b. 2) (c . 3)) ?
2015-09-01T15:06:38Z Shinmera: or what?
2015-09-01T15:06:42Z lambda-smith: Yep
2015-09-01T15:06:44Z Shinmera: (apply #'map 'list #'cons '((a b c) (1 2 3)))
2015-09-01T15:07:11Z dlowe: Shinmera: if you have a hash of a sequence, that means iterating across the entire sequence. If you use a heap or btree, you may only need to examine the first few elements
2015-09-01T15:07:42Z Shinmera: dlowe: Ah, I see. I didn't think about it that way. Thanks!
2015-09-01T15:09:44Z lambda-smith: Thanks guys, I'll try your suggestions out
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2015-09-01T15:29:58Z mobius-eng: Hi all! Does anybody can suggest the best way of using CFFI on Windows?
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2015-09-01T15:30:27Z mobius-eng: I'm trying through MSYS2, but first it cannot find ffi.h
2015-09-01T15:30:50Z mobius-eng: I copied it to where gcc can find it
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2015-09-01T15:31:50Z mobius-eng: but even then it fails as it cannot find FFI_SYSV
2015-09-01T15:32:01Z mobius-eng: (undefined variable)
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2015-09-01T15:38:34Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-09-01T15:38:46Z beach: sjl: EQUAL doesn't work for everything.
2015-09-01T15:38:51Z beach: [reading the logs]
2015-09-01T15:39:33Z eudoxia was thinking about source position tracking yesterday, and finally learned to appreciate the need for four different equality operators
2015-09-01T15:39:43Z eudoxia: satori achieved
2015-09-01T15:39:48Z beach: Heh.
2015-09-01T15:40:35Z beach: And four isn't enough as Kent Pitman correctly points out.  Each application needs its own:  http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2015-09-01T15:41:37Z beach: One *could* imagine a single function, but it would have to be generic and take a third argument, the APPLICATION.
2015-09-01T15:42:30Z eudoxia: yep
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2015-09-01T15:45:59Z beach: minion: Memo for shka: If you want a sequence-like data structure where you can insert/delete in the middle, consider using Flexichain.  It is available in Quicklisp.
2015-09-01T15:45:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-01T16:06:20Z sigjuice: Shinmera: shouldn't (apply #'mapcar #'cons '((a b c) (1 2 3))) do the same thing?
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2015-09-01T16:06:56Z Shinmera: sigjuice: Should. At the time I wasn't sure whether mapcar takes multiple lists.
2015-09-01T16:07:11Z Shinmera: And too lazy to look it up, evidently.
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2015-09-01T16:08:47Z Xach: eventually such facts get burned into your brain
2015-09-01T16:08:54Z Xach: you cannot forget them, even if you want to
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2015-09-01T16:09:27Z Shinmera: Why would you want to forget them though?
2015-09-01T16:10:33Z eudoxia: it's cool but kinda weird that map works like zip
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2015-09-01T16:15:35Z dlowe: map precedes zip by quite a bit
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2015-09-01T16:15:45Z rme: Obscure CL tidbit: (pairlis '(a b c) '(1 2 3))
2015-09-01T16:16:19Z Shinmera: rme: God damnit, I was so sure there was a function like that
2015-09-01T16:16:29Z Shinmera curses himself for not looking things up before
2015-09-01T16:16:35Z rme: Well, it is very obscure.
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2015-09-01T16:17:44Z pjb: I've got a problem wihth usocket on ccl; it seems like reading on a socket-stream doesn't block, but signals end-of-file when no data has been sent yet.
2015-09-01T16:17:57Z warweasle: ABC. Easy as One, two, three. Or simple as Do re mi. ABC, one, two, three, baby, you and me girl!
2015-09-01T16:18:27Z warweasle couldn't help himself.
2015-09-01T16:20:43Z sigjuice: (pairlis '(a b c) '(1 2 3)) => ((C . 3) (B . 2) (A . 1))
2015-09-01T16:22:04Z pjb: (pairlis '(a b c) '(la si do)) #| --> ((c . do) (b . si) (a . la)) |#
2015-09-01T16:22:59Z jackdaniel: bbl\o ; --> The variable bbl\o is unbound.
2015-09-01T16:23:09Z pjb: so?
2015-09-01T16:23:28Z jackdaniel: nothing, bbl, have a nice evening :)
2015-09-01T16:23:58Z jackdaniel: |BBLo| is unbound °
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2015-09-01T16:57:37Z shka: yo all
2015-09-01T16:57:37Z minion: shka, memo from beach: If you want a sequence-like data structure where you can insert/delete in the middle, consider using Flexichain.  It is available in Quicklisp.
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2015-09-01T16:57:57Z shka: thanks beach
2015-09-01T16:58:02Z shka: i will take look at it
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2015-09-01T16:59:30Z shka: i'm under impression that this is just bunch of vectors linked as list
2015-09-01T16:59:36Z shka: is that correct?
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2015-09-01T17:00:40Z shka: oh, not according to the documentation
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2015-09-01T17:02:43Z shka: pretty nice idea
2015-09-01T17:03:06Z shka: basicly something like deque from C++
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2015-09-01T19:34:30Z sebboh: hi all.  I'm using quicklisp to pull in some packages for the first time. Compilation failed, I was prompted, and chose option 0:. Then it failed again, I should have chose 1:.  When I try again, it goes immediately to the second failure--there must be compiled files on the disk.  How do I do a 'clean' in quicklisp?
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2015-09-01T19:35:04Z sebboh: Or if I'm asking the wrong question, please let me know.
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2015-09-01T19:35:50Z Xach missed part of it due to netsplit, will review
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2015-09-01T19:36:18Z Xach: sebboh: what is the error message?
2015-09-01T19:36:23Z tomaw_ is now known as tomaw
2015-09-01T19:37:38Z White_Flame: sebboh: rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/  will generally clear out what was already built
2015-09-01T19:38:01Z sebboh: Xach, Symbol "GEN-BUFFERS" not found in the GL package.  ...That's the "second" failure.  The first one was something like "you can't assign nickname GL to this package because it's already in use".  I told the compiler to ignore that problem, but it turns out that the package I'm building depends on that nickname...
2015-09-01T19:38:02Z White_Flame: not sure if quicklisp has an option built in to ignore/clear the cache for you
2015-09-01T19:38:20Z sebboh: I'm happy to clear the cache.
2015-09-01T19:38:31Z Xach: sebboh: That won't help. The problem is in your runtime environment, now.
2015-09-01T19:39:09Z Xach: sebboh: Restarting the session and changing how and what you load might help.
2015-09-01T19:39:58Z sebboh: I'm happy to restart the image. :)
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2015-09-01T19:40:41Z sebboh: how can I find out what package is using the name GL before I start building this new GL?  I can probably just uninstall the first one.  This machine is only used for dicking around.
2015-09-01T19:41:34Z Xach: sebboh: (find-package "GL")
2015-09-01T19:43:11Z sebboh: thanks. btw clearing part of the cache (and not yet restarting the session) did bring back the 0: [CONTINUE] Ignore this nickname failure.  Now I'll abort, find the other package, etc.  Thanks for your help Xach and White_Flame. :)
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2015-09-01T19:52:47Z BillyZane: ams, lol, welcome back
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2015-09-01T20:06:31Z phacemeltar: any good resources for a beginner wanting to learn lisp?
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2015-09-01T20:06:52Z Xach: phacemeltar: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a nice book.
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2015-09-01T20:07:17Z scottj: it used to be dead sexy, now it's just nice.
2015-09-01T20:07:59Z phacemeltar: sweet
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2015-09-01T20:28:01Z sebboh: So, the GL package from CLX is hanging around, even though I've killed my entire ~/.cache/common-lisp and also called (ql:uninstall :clx)...
2015-09-01T20:28:32Z Xach: sebboh: that means you have loaded it after starting lisp. or you are running from an image that has clx preloaded.
2015-09-01T20:28:33Z sebboh: I also exited sbcl and started a fresh one, after doing all that.  But (find-package "GL") still works.
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2015-09-01T20:28:46Z Xach: sebboh: what if you start sbcl with sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit?
2015-09-01T20:28:51Z sebboh: checking
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2015-09-01T20:30:48Z sebboh: I think you're on to something, Xach.  The lesson is, I don't need to be connecting to stumpwm's sbcl image.  It *obviously* uses clx... :)
2015-09-01T20:30:56Z Xach: oh, yeah.
2015-09-01T20:31:04Z Xach: it would be pretty hard to use otherwise
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2015-09-01T20:31:36Z sebboh: Indeed!  Perhaps I can alter cepl to not think cl-opengl should be called gl.
2015-09-01T20:32:44Z sebboh: wow the build takes a lot longer in an actually fresh sbcl. ;P
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2015-09-01T21:20:54Z mprelude: How do I pass a callback as an argument to a function?
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2015-09-01T21:21:30Z Bicyclidine: you pass the function. like (mapcar #'cons '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
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2015-09-01T21:21:55Z mprelude: How do I make sure it's a function?
2015-09-01T21:22:21Z Xach: mprelude: on which end?
2015-09-01T21:22:26Z Bicyclidine: I don't understand the question.
2015-09-01T21:22:41Z mprelude: So, I define 1 function, it takes an argument.
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2015-09-01T21:22:56Z mprelude: I want to pass it into another function, and do a callback to that first function within the second.
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2015-09-01T21:24:12Z Bicyclidine: you can get function objects with #' or fdefinition. you can call them with funcall, apply, etc.
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2015-09-01T21:27:47Z mprelude: Bicyclidine: https://eval.in/426422
2015-09-01T21:27:50Z mprelude: Something like this
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2015-09-01T21:28:31Z Xach: mprelude: it is similar in lisp
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2015-09-01T21:28:44Z Bicyclidine: (defun func (x) (write x)) (defun second-func (input callback) (funcall callback input)) (second-func 'some text' #'func)
2015-09-01T21:28:52Z Bicyclidine: er, (second-func "some text" #'func)
2015-09-01T21:29:39Z mprelude: Any way to check 'callback' is a function?
2015-09-01T21:30:12Z Bicyclidine: (check-type callback function)
2015-09-01T21:30:28Z jlarocco: (functionp func)
2015-09-01T21:30:32Z mprelude: Thanks
2015-09-01T21:30:33Z Xach: It could be better not to check, or to check that it is either a function or a symbol naming a function.
2015-09-01T21:30:37Z Bicyclidine: funcall will probably error itself if it's not given a function or a name, though
2015-09-01T21:30:40Z jlarocco: not sure why that would be necessary, though
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2015-09-01T21:31:04Z Bicyclidine: i mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but in javascript "foo = 4; foo(7)" isn't going to work
2015-09-01T21:31:35Z mprelude: Bicyclidine: No, absolutely not. I'm just trying to check it's a function so I can handle wrong input :)
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2015-09-01T21:31:50Z jlarocco: I would hope so, but I know enough javascript that it wouldn't surprise me if it did something stupid instead
2015-09-01T21:32:08Z Xach: mprelude: it would be more typical to not check.
2015-09-01T21:32:13Z mprelude: Throwing a condition, which can get caught by the app's handler and log the error.
2015-09-01T21:32:25Z Xach: mprelude: a condition will be signaled anyway.
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2015-09-01T21:37:48Z pjb: mprelude: when you must pass an integer value to a function, how do you make sure it's an integer?
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2015-09-01T21:38:37Z axion: how can i write 2 primary methods for a generic function, one specializing on '(simple-array single-float (3)) and the other '(simple-array single-float (16))?
2015-09-01T21:38:44Z Bicyclidine: can't
2015-09-01T21:38:57Z Xach: axion: you can't. methods specialize on classes (or eql), not types.
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2015-09-01T21:39:30Z axion: ok
2015-09-01T21:40:24Z Bicyclidine: you could write one method that dispatches on the length of the array, of course
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2015-09-01T21:40:57Z mprelude: Bicyclidine: http://paste2.org/KwJPyyBH This is basically what I'm doing
2015-09-01T21:41:07Z mprelude: (untested)
2015-09-01T21:41:54Z Bicyclidine: well there's no message bound, but i mean it seems fine
2015-09-01T21:42:10Z pjb: mprelude: by default keyword arguments have a NIL default value, therefore you could check (unless (null callback) …)
2015-09-01T21:42:49Z axion: Bicyclidine: i have vec3 and 4x4 matrix libraries. both are structs deftyped as such above. they both share quite a few similar functions. instead of ex: vector-multiply/matrix-multiply, would be nicer to have a generic function. what do you suggest i do in this situation?
2015-09-01T21:43:04Z pjb: mprelude: alternatively, you could do (defmethod … (… &key (callback (error "Missing a :callback parameter"))) …)
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2015-09-01T21:43:43Z mprelude: Thanks pjb
2015-09-01T21:44:07Z pjb: mprelude: and the answer to my question you didn't answered is: by using check-type.
2015-09-01T21:44:27Z mprelude: pjb: I've been using typep
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2015-09-01T21:44:29Z Bicyclidine: axion: you probably want to avoid runtime dispatch or make it as cheap as possible, so i guess i'd write a regular function to dispatch on the length, and then probably a compiler macro that might query the compile time types if they're known (through my own wonderful portability library only $19.99 call now https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment)
2015-09-01T21:44:37Z mprelude: (typep x 'integer)
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2015-09-01T21:44:47Z pjb: mprelude: check-type does more.
2015-09-01T21:46:37Z axion: Bicyclidine: thanks
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2015-09-01T21:56:14Z pjb: mprelude: have you tried check-type?
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2015-09-01T22:11:46Z mprelude: pjb: Looking at it now
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2015-09-01T22:19:16Z BillyZane: hi
2015-09-01T22:20:06Z BillyZane: https://ideone.com/FPdiZg
2015-09-01T22:20:20Z BillyZane: i wanted to test this function
2015-09-01T22:20:42Z BillyZane: it searches through a list 'L' for some symbol 'A'
2015-09-01T22:20:46Z Bicyclidine: you told ideone it was c#...
2015-09-01T22:22:02Z BillyZane: sure
2015-09-01T22:22:07Z BillyZane: well, i want to run it in clisp
2015-09-01T22:22:17Z Bicyclidine: and there's a typo, it should be (listp (car l)). beyond that and weird style it ought to work
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2015-09-01T22:23:34Z Bicyclidine: er, no, the listp clause is wrong, if you do (searchlist 'foo '((baz bar) foo)) it'll return t.
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2015-09-01T22:24:12Z BillyZane: Bicyclidine, oh, it's working now :D
2015-09-01T22:24:36Z Bicyclidine: it will return nil. man, i'm dumb today
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2015-09-01T22:25:05Z BillyZane: hmmm
2015-09-01T22:25:17Z BillyZane: it's working for a list, but it's not working for a tree
2015-09-01T22:25:33Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/Rq9goo
2015-09-01T22:25:37Z Bicyclidine: because if it runs into a sublist, it searches the sublist but not the rest of the original list.
2015-09-01T22:25:51Z BillyZane: i see
2015-09-01T22:25:54Z BillyZane: is there anyway to fix that?
2015-09-01T22:26:26Z Bicyclidine: Yes, I think you should work it out yourself, though, for learning.
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2015-09-01T22:26:50Z Bicyclidine: Your syntax is kind of weird, by the way, you mean (searchlist 1 '(1 2)).
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2015-09-01T22:26:54Z BillyZane: i don't want to use a stack
2015-09-01T22:27:10Z Bicyclidine: You don't have to use a stack. It's a very simple change.
2015-09-01T22:27:21Z Bicyclidine: well, not an explicit stack. whatever.
2015-09-01T22:27:45Z BillyZane: is it the check for the nil condition?
2015-09-01T22:28:04Z Bicyclidine: it is in the listp clause.
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2015-09-01T22:28:27Z BillyZane: hmm
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2015-09-01T22:28:32Z BillyZane: let me think about that
2015-09-01T22:29:21Z BillyZane: ok..
2015-09-01T22:29:25Z BillyZane: how about...
2015-09-01T22:30:42Z BillyZane: in the lisp clause, after checking car L, i check to see if cdr L is empty or not
2015-09-01T22:30:58Z BillyZane: if it's not, i update L to cdr L, and i redo it
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2015-09-01T22:31:59Z oGMo: instead of typing into the channel, you should specify this as lisp to your CL compiler, which will immediately inform you whether you've found the right answer or not
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2015-09-01T22:42:41Z BillyZane: it's so frustrating
2015-09-01T22:42:54Z BillyZane: can you guys just give me the answeer
2015-09-01T22:43:13Z BillyZane: i don't ever plan to use lisp again, i just need to turn in 1 assignment, i've been working on this for hours
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2015-09-01T22:43:42Z BillyZane: i've abandoned computer science, i just need this to turn my incomplete in to a letter grade, so i can move on with my life
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2015-09-01T22:45:17Z BillyZane: if you could just show me how to fix it, i'
2015-09-01T22:45:22Z BillyZane: i'd appreciate it
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2015-09-01T23:42:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, when should one use the @N= and #N# syntaxes?
2015-09-01T23:43:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I just recently figured out what the topic meant)
2015-09-01T23:43:37Z Bicyclidine: for self referencing objects, basically
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2015-09-02T00:02:13Z jason_m: yesterday I was inquiring about newline handling with read-line.  In particular sbcl (on windows) was not recognizing CR LF as a line ending... It recognized the LF and left the CR on the line it returned.
2015-09-02T00:02:53Z jason_m: I did find that in 13.1.7 of the spec, it says that conforming implementations must have #\newline, #\return, and #\linefeed present
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2015-09-02T00:03:15Z jason_m: Regarding newline, it says, An implementation must translate between #\Newline, a single-character representation, and whatever external representation(s) may be used.
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2015-09-02T00:05:39Z jason_m: anyway, to solve my immediate problem, i just wrote a "liberal" read-line, that treats any run of CR, LF as a single line ending.  Seems to get the job done.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/154658
2015-09-02T00:06:08Z jason_m: A bit slower than the built in read-line.  But I needed it for files that were hundreds, no more than thousands of lines long, so not a practical difference in speed.
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2015-09-02T00:19:24Z jasom: jason_m: if you do ever care about performance, a string-output-stream is likely going to be faster than that implementation
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2015-09-02T00:21:16Z jason_m: jasom: I'll have to play with that, it would eliminate the coerce step.  I figured most of the speed difference was due to no special buffering.  I peeked at sbcl's implementation and it has a fast read char function that I believe had some fast buffering machinery
2015-09-02T00:21:26Z jasom: right
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2015-09-02T01:02:02Z jason_m: jasom: I have the string-output-stream a try, http://paste.lisp.org/+3BC2/1
2015-09-02T01:03:39Z jason_m: It doesn't move the performance much.  Reading the first 1000 lines of the Emacs tutorial file 100 times, standard read-line: 48ms, my original liberal-read-line: 330ms, sos version: 304ms
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2015-09-02T01:25:46Z clasper_: does anyone know where quicklisp "looks" for dlls on windows?
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2015-09-02T01:28:54Z |3b|: quicklisp doesn't deal with DLLs at all
2015-09-02T01:29:42Z |3b|: it loads lisp libraries, the lisp libraries might load DLLs, if so they probably use CFFI, which usually just asks the lisp implementations to load them, which just asks the OS
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2015-09-02T01:30:33Z |3b|: you can ask CFFI to also look in a specific directory, i think the variable for that is cffi:*foreign-library-directories* or something similar
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2015-09-02T01:42:55Z clasper_: |3b|: thanks
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2015-09-02T02:01:29Z gag_reflex: If SICP (MIT's intro course/book) is so good, how come most people online recommend stuff like C and Python to beginners?
2015-09-02T02:01:33Z gag_reflex: Seems a bit suspect, right? That many people can't be ignorant of such a "good" book, right?
2015-09-02T02:02:22Z |3b|: if trolling is so good, why can't people troll c and python channels?
2015-09-02T02:02:22Z Bicyclidine: there are like seven billion people in the world and how many of them have read the Good Book? the bible? think about that
2015-09-02T02:03:43Z |3b|: (and does MIT even use SICP as an 'intro' book anymore?)
2015-09-02T02:03:55Z Bicyclidine: they switched to python like a million years ago i thought
2015-09-02T02:04:24Z phadthai: I also read they switched to python... someone made a cl adaptation of sicp if I remember also
2015-09-02T02:05:03Z gag_reflex: |3b|: Trolling is not good, that's why.
2015-09-02T02:05:16Z gag_reflex: I don't think the switch was too long ago.
2015-09-02T02:05:24Z |3b|: well, then the answer to your question is that SICP isn't so good
2015-09-02T02:05:55Z |3b|: it makes a horrible long-term light source for example, at best you can burn it for a bit, and even then the illumination isn't very consistent
2015-09-02T02:05:55Z phadthai: I don't think lack of merit was the problem, but the course was old and not updated
2015-09-02T02:07:07Z gag_reflex: |3b|: In other words, the book is a bad reference?
2015-09-02T02:07:13Z |3b|: (and if that isn't obvious enough, "good" has lots of valid definitions, and even then, not everyone cares about things being "good" in the first place)
2015-09-02T02:07:17Z Bicyclidine: it's not intended as a reference
2015-09-02T02:07:45Z |3b|: it is an introduction to relatively theoretical programming, targeted at MIT students
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2015-09-02T02:08:20Z |3b|: not everyone is an MIT student (or potential MIT student), and not everyone wants to be introduced to relatively theoretical programming
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2015-09-02T02:08:50Z |3b|: and lots of people have specific requirements completely independent from those criteria
2015-09-02T02:09:25Z Bicyclidine: i vaguely remember it having a lot of stuff about circuitry that made no sense to me at the time, expecting me to know KVL and such, since it was part of the MIT EECS curriculum
2015-09-02T02:09:32Z Bicyclidine: (TAOCP does too, a bit)
2015-09-02T02:09:41Z |3b|: so you can't say it is "good" in absolute terms, and even if you could, it still wouldn't be appropriate for a lot of situations, and even then, asking about book vs programming languages is a bit silly
2015-09-02T02:10:13Z gag_reflex: But, I thought theoretical programming > whatever else there is, because theory will never become obsolete like, say, hardware or individual languages.
2015-09-02T02:10:45Z Bicyclidine: it might be > in some sense but in another sense it might easier to get a nice job as a GPU silicon designer.
2015-09-02T02:11:09Z |3b|: right, you picked 1 definition of "good" or "better", and completely ignored lots of others
2015-09-02T02:11:29Z |3b|: maybe the goal isn't to have knowledge that won't become obsolete
2015-09-02T02:11:55Z |3b|: maybe someone just wants to hack together a fun game, or modify some specific piece of software, or be able to check of some specific box in a job description
2015-09-02T02:12:11Z |3b|: sicp doesn't help with any of those in the short term
2015-09-02T02:12:54Z |3b|: or maybe people just suggest things they would be able to help with, since people that asked for advice in the first place will probably continue to do so. in that case if they don't know sicp and do know c, c is a better thing to suggest
2015-09-02T02:13:39Z |3b|: (and people learning C or Python could still read SICP, since the first 2 are programming languages and the 3rd is a book)
2015-09-02T02:14:05Z clasper_: |3b|: I still cannot get quicklisp to "see" my dll even when I tried to point it to a directory using the command you gave me
2015-09-02T02:14:17Z gag_reflex: But, won't SICP make learning all of the stuff you mentioned above easier, since (as I read on SO somewhere) making a compiler involves almost all aspects of compsci?
2015-09-02T02:14:34Z gag_reflex: |3b|: That's like reading a book in a translated language, so, meh.
2015-09-02T02:15:22Z Bicyclidine: gag_reflex: yeah, but reading bourbaki would probably help that too, and you are not going to do that
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2015-09-02T02:16:16Z Bicyclidine: s/yeah/maybe/, probably
2015-09-02T02:16:29Z jason_m: I venture a guess that very few brave souls ever try to write compilers
2015-09-02T02:16:49Z Bicyclidine: in any case, if you want to read it, you might as well. reading a book isn't too much effort, and you can always quit partway through if it isn't what you needed.
2015-09-02T02:16:59Z gag_reflex: Someone else, in another channel, said something that I feel is highly debatable, so I'll post it to see if it has any validity:
2015-09-02T02:17:01Z gag_reflex: Popularity != quality 2) Most programmers wouldn't understand what's in SICP (If you actually read it and understand the concepts you're ahead of a lot of people)
2015-09-02T02:17:20Z Bicyclidine: there's "ahead" again
2015-09-02T02:17:58Z Bicyclidine: you need more defined goals and criteria
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2015-09-02T02:18:12Z |3b|: gag_reflex: you could spend 3 years training and exercising to walk across the street too, and it it would help.... it might not be an efficient use of your time though
2015-09-02T02:18:47Z |3b|: and yeah, we covered "popularity != quality" already i think
2015-09-02T02:19:21Z |3b|: clasper_: are you maybe trying to use 32bit libs with a 64bit lisp (or 64 with 32)?
2015-09-02T02:19:57Z clasper_: maybe ill check into it
2015-09-02T02:20:12Z gag_reflex: |3b|: Are you implying that tussling through SICP *may* (I repeat, *may*) not be an efficient use of time? I don't quite get the analogy.
2015-09-02T02:20:40Z jason_m: gag_reflex: It depends on what skill set is important to you
2015-09-02T02:20:43Z |3b|: exactly
2015-09-02T02:21:19Z |3b|: if you could finish something in a week with just a poorly written python tutorial, you have actually accomplished something
2015-09-02T02:21:30Z jason_m: Accountants might be good at math, but they do not get better at their jobs by studying group theory.
2015-09-02T02:21:35Z |3b|: if you spend a year slogging through half of sicp and give up, you haven't
2015-09-02T02:22:29Z |3b|: and maybe the first person did something a bit harder the next week, and at the end of the year is doing 'real' programming and goes on to read SICP now that they actually know enough to understand why it is saying things
2015-09-02T02:23:35Z gag_reflex: I understand know. I just want a solid foundation in compsci/programming (yes, I know they're not the same). I was just entranced by the notion of learning the theoretical stuff in SICP first and THEN being able to pick up other languages with relative ease, I reckon...
2015-09-02T02:23:39Z gag_reflex: *now
2015-09-02T02:23:45Z |3b| won't argue about whether "most" programmers "could" or "couldn't"  understand sicp, but i'd expect quite a few professional programmers /wouldn't care/ about what's in sicp, since they just want to be able to do their job and then go home, and they can already do that
2015-09-02T02:23:55Z Bicyclidine: gag_reflex: if that's what you want then certainly give it a shot.
2015-09-02T02:24:12Z |3b|: if you find SICP interesting, read it, and try to do the exercises
2015-09-02T02:24:43Z |3b|: if you don't, maybe skim it and find some programming problem that interests you enough to keep you motivated
2015-09-02T02:25:45Z |3b|: then maybe come back and read more of SICP when you have more background
2015-09-02T02:27:10Z gag_reflex: Yes, I think I'll actually give the book a try. I only asked this question here due to already having skimmed to book and (being a noob to this all) having saw what looked like very unfriendly material to a beginner -- in a book that people so often claim is the best intro to programming or compsci.
2015-09-02T02:27:35Z Bicyclidine: yes, well, that's where you keep in mind it's introductory in the context of being a, i think sophomore at MIT.
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2015-09-02T02:35:04Z gag_reflex: What do you all think about looking up the solutions to exercises in the book and understanding how they work, in the advent of not having the creativity to create your own?
2015-09-02T02:35:29Z Bicyclidine: you should try to do exercises. thinking about them is important even if you don't work out the answer.
2015-09-02T02:36:13Z jason_m: It's just like math proofs.  You need to stew on the problem for a while. Or you never learn those first steps about knowing how to tackle a problem.
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2015-09-02T02:36:58Z jason_m: You'll get better with practice.  As long as you put in the time to really think about then, without looking at the solutions.
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2015-09-02T02:38:36Z AlphaFuze: Hi.  I am a student trying to learn common lisp using the GNU clisp implementation.  I am following a tutorial where I write a small function in notepad++ and load the file so I can use it in the lisp interpreter, but it isn't working for me.
2015-09-02T02:39:03Z Bicyclidine: just to be clear, you mean http://www.clisp.org/, right?
2015-09-02T02:39:22Z AlphaFuze: yes
2015-09-02T02:39:37Z Bicyclidine: ok. please elaborate on "isn't working"
2015-09-02T02:40:07Z jason_m: AlphaFuze: Do you get an error message?
2015-09-02T02:40:49Z AlphaFuze: I didn't save the lisp file in the same directory, and I'm having trouble specifying to lisp where my file is exactly...
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2015-09-02T02:41:22Z Bicyclidine: can you use an absolute path? or if you're on nix, one relative to ~?
2015-09-02T02:41:23Z AlphaFuze: Here is what I entered:  (load:  "E:\SWDEV-workspaces\workspace-commonlisp\cl-practice\practice01.lisp")
2015-09-02T02:41:34Z Bicyclidine: Try doubling the backslashes?
2015-09-02T02:42:32Z AlphaFuze: It worked!  But why?  Why do the backslashes need to doubled?
2015-09-02T02:43:18Z Bicyclidine: because \ is an escape character. if you wanted to enter a string with the " character in it, for instance, it would be like "Sure, I'll \"help\" you out, heh heh"
2015-09-02T02:43:28Z jason_m: On Windows with sbcl, I've also been able to enter (single) forward slashed.  I think the implementation converts that to double backslash.
2015-09-02T02:43:58Z Bicyclidine: so in your original string the \ just escaped the next character; you may as well have written "E:SWDEV-workspacesworkspace-commonlispcl-practicepractice01.lisp"
2015-09-02T02:44:02Z phf: most likely anything but \" and \\ are interpreted as \
2015-09-02T02:44:14Z AlphaFuze: ahh, okay.  So strings need to be escaped in lisp just as they are in c and c++?
2015-09-02T02:44:30Z Bicyclidine: the escaping works differently (no \n for newline, for example) but yes.
2015-09-02T02:44:48Z AlphaFuze: How do you do newlines then?
2015-09-02T02:45:14Z |3b|: just hit return
2015-09-02T02:45:17Z Bicyclidine: put an actual newline in the string, usually.
2015-09-02T02:46:11Z AlphaFuze: coming from a c/c++/java background, that sounds very strange and will probably mess me up.  ='(
2015-09-02T02:46:28Z resttime: If you use a function like #'format, which is kind of like printf, you'll use a character like ~%
2015-09-02T02:46:38Z Bicyclidine: it's not too bad. you don't write final newlines as often as you do in C, since they're often inserted for you.
2015-09-02T02:47:09Z resttime: Errr not character but a "specifier" in the string
2015-09-02T02:47:40Z Bicyclidine: plus, when you come back here and ask why all your output has 'n's on the ends, it'll be really easy for us to solve the problem
2015-09-02T02:47:41Z clasper_: |3b|: I do not know what I did but every time I go to load slime I am getting an error... http://pastebin.com/J14HL04k
2015-09-02T02:48:12Z |3b|: yeah, most newlines in strings end up in things using FORMAT, where ~% and ~& are available
2015-09-02T02:49:11Z |3b|: clasper_: did you try to modify PATh or some other env var?
2015-09-02T02:49:31Z |3b|: or more likely TEMP i guess
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2015-09-02T02:53:04Z AlphaFuze: Out of curiosity, how are your opinions on the various implementations of lisp?  Do you generally stick with one, or do you use several of them together?
2015-09-02T02:53:43Z resttime: I consider SBCL to be a very good implementation to use
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2015-09-02T02:54:45Z resttime: And to my understanding, that's what many others use as well
2015-09-02T02:55:07Z phf: AlphaFuze: sbcl is the choice du jour the lisp cabal :)
2015-09-02T02:55:07Z jason_m: AlphaFuze: The first lisp implementation I stumbled into was clisp.  I played with it for a couple days.  Then I read about sbcl.  I solved a couple project euler problems in both and found the sbcl performance to be quite a bit better.  I've been sbcl all the way since.
2015-09-02T02:55:54Z |3b| mostly uses sbcl, but also considers ccl, abcl, etc for specific purposes
2015-09-02T03:03:26Z phf: i think there's a wide range, i use ccl almost exclusively and write a lot of non-portable code that relies on internal symbols. it also comes with an excellent though mac only ide. it also has faster compilation speeds, which is something that's noticeable even with large forms in repl. i think sometimes portability and reuse is hairshirt, but then i don't release open source code, so i'm biased.
2015-09-02T03:04:22Z AlphaFuze: Does anyone here happen to work with lisp on a regular basis?  Would you consider it a sort of "gateway" language in that learning lisp could possibly ease the transition to learning new languages scheme, ocaml, haskell, etc.?
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2015-09-02T03:05:00Z |3b| finds it a gateway into not wanting to learn other languages :p
2015-09-02T03:05:08Z phf: hehe -^
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2015-09-02T03:05:45Z AlphaFuze: What if I was interested in writing portable code?  Is common lisp not a good choice?
2015-09-02T03:06:42Z phf: AlphaFuze: i'm talking about a different kind of portable, i.e. portable between different implementations of common lisp. don't worry on my account, sane people just use portability shims and there's plenty of those
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2015-09-02T03:06:58Z Zhivago: It depends on where you want to be portable to.
2015-09-02T03:07:07Z Zhivago: CL is probably not a good choice if you are targeting microcontrollers.
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2015-09-02T03:09:52Z AlphaFuze: What kind of software do you find yourself mostly commonly writing in CL?
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2015-09-02T03:18:10Z resttime: I write whatever happens to be interesting to me at the time
2015-09-02T03:19:18Z resttime: Like I was interested in triplestore databases one day so I wrote a naive version of one
2015-09-02T03:20:00Z AlphaFuze: What part of your database was lisp used?
2015-09-02T03:20:12Z resttime: Some other day I felt like doing some web dev so I used said triplestore database and wrote a primitive booru
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2015-09-02T03:20:15Z resttime: All of it
2015-09-02T03:20:27Z resttime: it's naive so not that great and very simple
2015-09-02T03:21:00Z resttime: and that web dev was also written in common lisp
2015-09-02T03:21:02Z resttime: all of it
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2015-09-02T03:22:52Z resttime: As of now I'm starting to be interested in writing a kind of physics library
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2015-09-02T03:28:14Z AlphaFuze: I don't know much about lisp, but I think I read somewhere that it makes parsing a lot easier.
2015-09-02T03:28:14Z resttime: Err, at least working on one that is
2015-09-02T03:28:14Z resttime: You mean the homoiconity?
2015-09-02T03:28:14Z resttime: The simple syntax that is
2015-09-02T03:28:14Z AlphaFuze: not sure, still learning :P
2015-09-02T03:28:15Z resttime: Well if/when you make it past parenthesis you;ll find syntax very easy
2015-09-02T03:28:15Z resttime: Like many other languages require special characters or maybe even white space in their syntax
2015-09-02T03:28:15Z resttime: Not Common Lisp though
2015-09-02T03:28:15Z resttime: Also, I'd reommend grabbing a copy of Emacs + SLIME + Paredit
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z AlphaFuze: I tried learning emacs, but just couldn't stand not being able to move around with the mouse.
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z resttime: I would consider it a much more superior form of development than writing with notepad++
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z resttime: Hmmm, well whatever suits you, though I still highly recommend learning how
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2015-09-02T03:28:16Z AlphaFuze: Do you happen to know haskell, by chance?
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z resttime: Especially because you're missing out on REPL based devlopment
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z resttime: I have "dabbled" a little with that language, likely forgotten most of the syntax
2015-09-02T03:28:16Z resttime: Might understand some of the concepts
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2015-09-02T03:32:39Z resttime: Lisp programming with Notepad++ D:
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2015-09-02T03:39:54Z theos: Lisp programming with gedit
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2015-09-02T03:44:28Z phadthai: xedit
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2015-09-02T03:50:49Z Lokathor: anything that copies the last line's whitespace should be close enough for beginning purposes
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2015-09-02T03:55:03Z resttime: That's true, I'm guess I'm just pretty spoiled by the benefits from Emacs and VIM by now
2015-09-02T03:55:56Z phadthai: I was kidding about xedit, but it actually includes a lisp mode heh
2015-09-02T03:56:04Z phadthai: from its own man page:
2015-09-02T03:56:06Z phadthai: RESTRICTIONS
2015-09-02T03:56:06Z phadthai:        Xedit is not a replacement to Emacs.
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2015-09-02T05:09:11Z theos: i have to try climax someday
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2015-09-02T05:10:20Z Quadrescence: (CLIMACS)
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2015-09-02T07:43:08Z loke: re
2015-09-02T07:43:14Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-09-02T07:45:56Z loke: Hello JD
2015-09-02T07:46:10Z loke: http://logonoid.com/images/jack-daniels-logo.jpg
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2015-09-02T08:13:10Z jackdaniel: loke: give me a sec, I'll find self-made one avatar :p
2015-09-02T08:14:02Z jackdaniel: loke: http://i.imgur.com/00MjlWs.jpg
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2015-09-02T08:57:22Z loke: Very nice
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2015-09-02T09:08:24Z jackdaniel: to avoid misinformation - self made in that sense that I did a photo and edited it with gimp, no that I rendered this piece :)
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2015-09-02T09:17:35Z momo-reina: can anyone suggest a good write-up on generic functions? I've read PCL and some other stuff that Google threw up but I still don't understand the difference between it and regular method definition inside class bodies found in other languages.
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2015-09-02T09:19:50Z jackdaniel: momo-reina: generic functions specialize on objects, so they are independant of the object per-se. I don't have a good write-up though
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2015-09-02T09:21:10Z momo-reina: right, so the object is a parameter passed to the function.
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2015-09-02T09:21:38Z momo-reina: but what can be done with generic functions that can't be done with regular methods?
2015-09-02T09:21:51Z jackdaniel: hm, you can specialize method on two objects
2015-09-02T09:22:17Z momo-reina: like overloading you mean?
2015-09-02T09:22:23Z jackdaniel: or n objects, in other languages method belong to one object
2015-09-02T09:22:57Z jackdaniel: hm, consider classes boy and girl, and method kiss
2015-09-02T09:23:08Z jackdaniel: does method kiss belong to a boy or to a girl?
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2015-09-02T09:23:39Z momo-reina: no, you have to write the code and let multiple dispatch handle it right?
2015-09-02T09:23:48Z jackdaniel: also methods have this very useful machinery which gives you control over what happens when (keywords :before, :after, :around)
2015-09-02T09:24:31Z jackdaniel: momo-reina: you can write generic function and specialize method on both objects, so (defmethod ((boy boy-class) (girl girl-class)) …)
2015-09-02T09:25:12Z momo-reina: ah, ok.. that's something I didn't see.
2015-09-02T09:25:34Z jackdaniel: clos is a broad topic (I'm not much into OOP in any case (even with Lisp), so I won't be a good advisor here)
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2015-09-02T09:26:05Z jackdaniel: there should be a name of the method before parameters of course
2015-09-02T09:28:05Z momo-reina: yeah I really haven't missed not writing class-based code but figured since CLOS is there I might as well learn what it's about. I was reading that generic functions allow behavior that cannot be done by regular methods in other languages, so was trying to see what that was all about.
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2015-09-02T09:34:07Z Shinmera: momo-reina: I wrote a blog about CLOS some time back, maybe it has something of use for you. http://reader.tymoon.eu/article/268
2015-09-02T09:35:05Z momo-reina: Shinmera: thanks I'll look it up right now.
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2015-09-02T09:59:48Z Cymew: Dick Gabriel also has a bunch of papers on his site on CLOS which might be helpful.
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2015-09-02T10:52:02Z maxvi: does lisp have some web framework?
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2015-09-02T10:52:47Z jackdaniel: maxvi: plenty :)
2015-09-02T10:53:07Z jackdaniel: most actively maintained / advertised is clack afaik
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2015-09-02T10:56:03Z Shinmera: clack is more of a web framework framework though.
2015-09-02T10:57:03Z jackdaniel: but on their site there are frameworks built with clack listed
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2015-09-02T10:57:47Z jackdaniel: last sentence wasn't even close to being grammatical correct, right?
2015-09-02T10:58:22Z Shinmera: Looked fine to me, but your sentence about tĥe sentence wasn't.
2015-09-02T10:58:33Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-09-02T11:02:37Z Shinmera: * _The_ last sentence wasn't even close to being gramatical_ly_ correct
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2015-09-02T12:15:19Z maxvi: has lisp some lib to generate CRUD by mysql table or generate admin panel by database models? I use Django (Python) to generate admin by models so several people can change anything in database via admin panel.
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2015-09-02T12:21:36Z knobo-net: Is generated CRUD actually usefull for other things then prototyping in any platform?
2015-09-02T12:23:20Z Shinmera: Why not use a tool that is geared specifically for your databse? I don't really see why you would need that to be in lisp specifically when the thing you actually want to use is a GUI.
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2015-09-02T12:24:13Z Shinmera: *database
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2015-09-02T12:27:30Z AeroNotix: maxvi: fwiw at $TYRANNICAL_DAYJOB_SAVE_ME we use pg and just put django admin on things where we can. It works well.
2015-09-02T12:27:43Z AeroNotix: even though the main apps are Erlang
2015-09-02T12:27:44Z maxvi: Shinmera, knobo-net: I have website on python and I have admin that show forms to edit/add entities by model description. I want to rewrite site on lisp (just for fun) so I want to describe database models in lisp and show we forms to edit/add new entities
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2015-09-02T12:28:45Z AeroNotix: django-admin is boring and annoying code to write, if you want to rewrite it into CL as a fun task, your definition of fun is different to mine! But i would definitely use it.
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2015-09-02T12:28:49Z Shinmera: maxvi: Radiance has a prewritten module for that, but Radiance isn't ready for people to use it, so that's not of much use to you unfortunately.
2015-09-02T12:29:14Z Shinmera: maxvi: Other than that I haven't heard of anyone having written such a tool.
2015-09-02T12:29:41Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: For pg I use pgadmin3, which is quite nice.
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2015-09-02T12:30:38Z knobo-net: maxvi: what kind of lisp do you want to use?
2015-09-02T12:30:46Z knobo-net: cl, probably
2015-09-02T12:31:01Z Shinmera: This is #lisp, so the answer has to be CL, lest this is the wrong channel.
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2015-09-02T12:31:21Z knobo-net: right.
2015-09-02T12:31:30Z maxvi: yes CL
2015-09-02T12:31:39Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: what I like about django admin is I can easily add nice management commands into the UI and have my non-technical colleagues (support desk etc, creative/design peeps) be able to do stuff with data or perform nice queries
2015-09-02T12:32:02Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I see. No idea if pgadmin3 can do that, as I don't have that kind of use-case.
2015-09-02T12:33:00Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: the way I see it is that django-admin has nice utlities to build out reports/automation/etc for your data.
2015-09-02T12:33:07Z AeroNotix: E.g. stuff like "login as this user"
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2015-09-02T12:45:47Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: pgadmin3 looks like shit on a retina display, fwiw
2015-09-02T12:45:50Z AeroNotix: I can't see anything by default
2015-09-02T12:45:59Z Shinmera: Hah
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2015-09-02T12:49:09Z AeroNotix: 1.2M rows makes it incredibly unresponsive as well
2015-09-02T12:49:19Z spegelref: Postico is a pretty nice GUI for administration of PostgreSQL servers.
2015-09-02T12:49:30Z AeroNotix: which.. I guess I should expect, but 1.2M rows is not outside of the realm of possibilities for normal deployments
2015-09-02T12:49:39Z AeroNotix looks up postico
2015-09-02T12:49:49Z Shinmera: postico doesn't even seem to be in the AUR :(
2015-09-02T12:49:58Z Shinmera: Oh, OS X.
2015-09-02T12:50:02Z AeroNotix: meh
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2015-09-02T12:50:35Z Shinmera: Anyway, once I get back to Radiance (hopefully very soon) there will be a web interface for databases in Lisp.
2015-09-02T12:51:15Z Shinmera: I'm being held up by Flare, which has turned out to pose many more challenges than I anticipated.
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2015-09-02T12:54:41Z Xach: darn, www.sbcl.org seems down to me
2015-09-02T12:54:56Z remi`bd: here too
2015-09-02T12:55:05Z Shinmera: Up for me
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2015-09-02T12:55:20Z flip214: nameserver seems down
2015-09-02T12:55:38Z flip214: ns.b9.com.
2015-09-02T12:55:44Z flip214: they were sold recently, right?
2015-09-02T12:55:45Z Xach: oh snap
2015-09-02T12:55:50Z Xach: yes, b9 is gone
2015-09-02T12:55:58Z flip214: well, there's the reason
2015-09-02T12:56:00Z Xach: what a rippling effect
2015-09-02T12:56:04Z flip214: sbcl.org.               86400   IN      NS      ns.b9.com.
2015-09-02T12:56:04Z flip214: sbcl.org.               86400   IN      NS      ns2.b9.com.
2015-09-02T12:56:17Z Shinmera: OpenDNS still has it cached then
2015-09-02T12:56:26Z flip214: for a short time, at least ...
2015-09-02T12:56:42Z Shinmera: At least the binaries and everything is still reachable through SF
2015-09-02T12:57:17Z flip214: as if *that* was a good thing ;/     ;P
2015-09-02T12:57:39Z Shinmera: Do you want them to not be reachable at all?
2015-09-02T12:58:31Z flip214: well, *my* binaries are available via debian repos.... SF just doesn't have a good name anymore.
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2015-09-02T13:00:37Z Vityok: flip214: iirc sources and source tarballs are reachable through GitHub
2015-09-02T13:01:01Z Vityok: at least this was the case when SF went down for a while recently
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2015-09-02T13:01:10Z Shinmera: Sources aren't quite binaries
2015-09-02T13:02:00Z Vityok: but they belong to the quantifier "everything"
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2015-09-02T13:02:18Z Vityok: at least "something" is reachable via other means other than SF
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2015-09-02T13:15:52Z jackdaniel: spec doesn't require it, but does it prohibit possibility of printing functions readably?
2015-09-02T13:16:11Z jackdaniel: for instance bytecompiled ones
2015-09-02T13:16:42Z flip214: I guess it'd be a bit "unreadable" because of the length anyway
2015-09-02T13:17:20Z flip214: I guess you could simply print #<FUNCTION xyz (LAMBDA (a b c) ...)>
2015-09-02T13:17:27Z flip214: but that'd be long too
2015-09-02T13:17:56Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/151 for instance - reader #Y is used for functions
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2015-09-02T13:31:23Z jackdaniel: readably in a sense that it can be read back
2015-09-02T13:31:25Z jackdaniel: by a reader
2015-09-02T13:31:38Z loke``: Hello jd
2015-09-02T13:31:45Z jackdaniel: \o loke``
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2015-09-02T13:45:20Z knobo-net: I must say optima is realy cool. Tried it for the first time today.
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2015-09-02T13:48:25Z kami: Good afternoon.
2015-09-02T13:48:40Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-09-02T14:16:21Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: isn't b9.com kmr's domain ?
2015-09-02T14:16:21Z minion: fe[nl]ix, memo from loke: The version of BT on QL is over a year old. Is this because the latest version hasn't been tagged in git? It would be nice to have the timed condition variable support in the official QL version.
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2015-09-02T14:16:48Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: he sold it quite recently and moved his own stuff to kpe.io
2015-09-02T14:17:06Z fe[nl]ix: not good
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2015-09-02T14:18:44Z fe[nl]ix: maybe ehu can help with that ?
2015-09-02T14:18:49Z fe[nl]ix: ehu: ping
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2015-09-02T14:57:49Z ehu: fe[nl]ix: maybe I can help, yes.
2015-09-02T14:58:04Z ehu: you want b9's content stored somewhere?
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2015-09-02T14:58:33Z ehu: or you want the domain bought?
2015-09-02T14:58:36Z eudoxia: but why does sbcl.org depend on b9.com
2015-09-02T14:58:42Z Xach: eudoxia: history
2015-09-02T14:58:53Z Xach: eudoxia: the ns records are ns.b9.com and ns2.b9.com
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2015-09-02T14:59:28Z eudoxia: so, sbcl.org redirects to a subdomain of b9.com?
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2015-09-02T15:00:28Z ehu: well, there's no problem for common-lisp.net to take over that role.
2015-09-02T15:00:34Z ehu: can we get to the content?
2015-09-02T15:00:55Z Xach: ehu: no.
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2015-09-02T15:01:11Z Xach: eudoxia: ns.b9.com is authoritative for the sbcl.org zone
2015-09-02T15:01:19Z Xach: sorry, both meant for eudoxia
2015-09-02T15:01:32Z Xach: ehu: I bet kevin can provide the zone files
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2015-09-02T15:02:22Z Xach: actually, his new dns servers, ns.kpe.io, thinks ns.metmd.com is authoritative for sbcl.org.
2015-09-02T15:02:24Z ehu: the content is safe and not on b9.com, thoug?
2015-09-02T15:02:37Z ehu: though.
2015-09-02T15:02:43Z Xach: if someone updates sbcl.org's ns records to point to ns.metmd.com and ns2.metmd.com, it would be resolved, I think.
2015-09-02T15:02:53Z Xach: ehu: yes. it is not on b9.com. it is on sourceforge. the only issue is the dns.
2015-09-02T15:02:54Z ehu: hmm.
2015-09-02T15:03:04Z ehu: ok.
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2015-09-02T15:03:17Z ehu: we don't "do" sbcl's dns, do we?
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2015-09-02T15:03:30Z Xach: kmr does it.
2015-09-02T15:03:54Z Xach: and metmd.com is his domain
2015-09-02T15:04:16Z Xach: (and also kpe.io)
2015-09-02T15:04:47Z ehu: right. but I mean, who has access to the registrar to point to the right dns authority?
2015-09-02T15:05:02Z Xach: I don't know about that.
2015-09-02T15:05:07Z Xach: it is obfuscated in whois.
2015-09-02T15:05:34Z Xach: whn? dan`b? who knows?
2015-09-02T15:05:55Z DeadTrickster: why not just use say Route 53 from amazon. just set and forget
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2015-09-02T15:07:16Z Xach: DeadTrickster: the people in position to make that decision are not present.
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2015-09-02T15:07:30Z Xach: I emailed sbcl-devel about it an hour or two ago.
2015-09-02T15:07:44Z DeadTrickster: I saw your email
2015-09-02T15:08:22Z DeadTrickster: Then I checked myself - not working also b9.com doesn't work too
2015-09-02T15:10:42Z DeadTrickster: Honestly I thought SBCL is big enough to have stable hosting, Firstly there was that SF failure, now - DNS.
2015-09-02T15:10:52Z Xach: Big enough in what sense?
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2015-09-02T15:12:01Z DeadTrickster: It's well established open source project - a lot of people use it
2015-09-02T15:12:32Z joshe: not a lot of people develop it
2015-09-02T15:12:41Z Xach: As far as I know, nobody's job description is "take care of SBCL".
2015-09-02T15:12:47Z DeadTrickster: I think basic hosting stuff is way simple than say GC of whatever shit they discussing on sbcl-devel
2015-09-02T15:13:02Z Xach: Though a lot of people do pitch in, it's all volunteer work, or incidental-to-the-real-job work.
2015-09-02T15:13:18Z DeadTrickster: I'm not pointing finger
2015-09-02T15:13:19Z eudoxia: well, the DNS stuff was probably set like a decade ago and people haven't touched it since
2015-09-02T15:13:21Z DeadTrickster: just wonder
2015-09-02T15:13:34Z eudoxia: as for the SF outage, well, the solution to that is to move the site to github pages
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2015-09-02T15:15:34Z Xach: DeadTrickster: It would be nice if there were no problems.
2015-09-02T15:15:36Z ehu: eudoxia: right. in that case, they disappear off the web in case GitHub gets an outage instead of SourceForge
2015-09-02T15:16:03Z eudoxia: ehu: at present, the probability of SF tipping over is greater than that of GH doing the same
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2015-09-02T15:17:07Z joshe: the solution, as xach suggested, is to have someone to take care of the infrastructure
2015-09-02T15:17:24Z joshe: ideally two people for when one inevitably disappears at a bad time
2015-09-02T15:20:16Z DeadTrickster: maybe I could take care of this but is it even discussable?
2015-09-02T15:20:37Z DeadTrickster: or who speak to?
2015-09-02T15:21:02Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: the devs talks on #sbcl, or maybe try the mailing list
2015-09-02T15:21:05Z Xach: It is not really discussable here. The mailing list or irc channel is probably better.
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2015-09-02T15:22:57Z DeadTrickster: maybe I'll just wait until someone respond to Xach emails and then hijack that thread :-)
2015-09-02T15:24:33Z jackdaniel: if migration is going to happen, I think keeping official stuff on common-lisp.net is wiser decision then using github - nobody knows what buisness-wise decision will be made in the future in the case of the latter
2015-09-02T15:25:35Z PuercoPop: maxvi: For the CRUD generating tables check clsql.
2015-09-02T15:25:50Z AeroNotix: can't we just host something ourselves?
2015-09-02T15:26:01Z AeroNotix: what are the current hosting costs?
2015-09-02T15:26:08Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, it can go down just like b9.com
2015-09-02T15:26:15Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, depends on load
2015-09-02T15:26:29Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: yes, but I'm sure there's an average cost
2015-09-02T15:26:56Z eudoxia: i mean, come on. github is more stable than anything anyone here can whip up.
2015-09-02T15:27:14Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: I agree but some people have valid points against using it, re: github is a business
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2015-09-02T15:27:20Z AeroNotix: and if you're not paying for something, you're the product
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2015-09-02T15:27:31Z eudoxia: it's a multi-million dollar company whose services everyone depends on. they have people who are paid to fix outages.
2015-09-02T15:27:50Z AeroNotix: I don't think github's stability is what people are concerned about
2015-09-02T15:27:52Z PuercoPop: eudoxia: Not really, because it is more likely to be the target of DDOS.
2015-09-02T15:28:00Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: which are usually resolved very quickly.
2015-09-02T15:28:08Z AeroNotix: 1-3 days max
2015-09-02T15:28:13Z eudoxia: PuercoPop: yeah but that hasn't happened in a good while
2015-09-02T15:28:15Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, one vm on aws and less than $50 can handle 50 000 100 000 per month I think
2015-09-02T15:28:27Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: common-lisp.net is backed by Common Lisp Foundation not by a single entity like b9
2015-09-02T15:28:38Z DeadTrickster: It hardly depends on what sbcl.org uses underneath
2015-09-02T15:28:40Z PuercoPop: eudoxia: I'm not saying it is unstable, but that it is less table.
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2015-09-02T15:28:53Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: github is a website, not a table/
2015-09-02T15:28:54Z AeroNotix: .
2015-09-02T15:28:59Z PuercoPop: *stable
2015-09-02T15:28:59Z DeadTrickster: (
2015-09-02T15:29:03Z AeroNotix: joke :)
2015-09-02T15:29:13Z DeadTrickster: I always used it like table (
2015-09-02T15:29:48Z DeadTrickster: my worst joke, nevermind please
2015-09-02T15:30:13Z AeroNotix: anyway, imho -- github pages or a vm on ec2 make the most sense.
2015-09-02T15:30:23Z AeroNotix: leaning towards github pages since it's free.
2015-09-02T15:30:45Z DeadTrickster: but do you still need DNS server ?
2015-09-02T15:30:56Z eudoxia: yes
2015-09-02T15:31:10Z DeadTrickster: it that light aws is more integrated
2015-09-02T15:31:15Z AeroNotix: route 53
2015-09-02T15:31:24Z DeadTrickster: and has CDN
2015-09-02T15:31:45Z AeroNotix: yup, ec2 is brain-dead simple to use and is usually quite reliable.
2015-09-02T15:31:56Z AeroNotix: I'd be happy to chip in $50+ a month for SBCL specifically for this
2015-09-02T15:32:02Z eudoxia: yes, but someone has to keep the money going
2015-09-02T15:32:09Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: what are the current costs?
2015-09-02T15:32:18Z rme: I'm sure they'll figure it out on the sbcl mailing list.
2015-09-02T15:32:20Z AeroNotix: sbcl.org was a bunch of static content
2015-09-02T15:32:21Z eudoxia: github pages is free and you can host release tarballs on github too
2015-09-02T15:32:28Z AeroNotix: with some downloads
2015-09-02T15:32:38Z AeroNotix: put the static content on cloudfront, downloads in s3
2015-09-02T15:32:40Z AeroNotix: or github pages, yes
2015-09-02T15:33:07Z eudoxia: is it really necessary to complicate it that much? cloudfront and s3? it's not facebook
2015-09-02T15:33:10Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, totally right here. put static stuff on s3 - you don't even need ec2
2015-09-02T15:33:16Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: it's simple to use
2015-09-02T15:33:23Z AeroNotix: and cheap
2015-09-02T15:33:23Z eudoxia: ~you still have to pay for s3~
2015-09-02T15:33:29Z AeroNotix: but it's super cheap really
2015-09-02T15:33:33Z eudoxia: ~just use github pages~
2015-09-02T15:33:36Z AeroNotix: I know.
2015-09-02T15:33:39Z DeadTrickster: like 0.1 usd for Gb
2015-09-02T15:33:50Z DeadTrickster: last time I checked
2015-09-02T15:34:01Z AeroNotix: I think it's cheaper than that even
2015-09-02T15:34:05Z Shinmera: This discussion is frighteningly detached from CL.
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2015-09-02T15:34:06Z AeroNotix: you get some gb free per month
2015-09-02T15:34:06Z eudoxia: still more expensive than zero
2015-09-02T15:34:07Z DeadTrickster: there also free tier
2015-09-02T15:34:25Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: sure, but people have idealogical problems with github.
2015-09-02T15:34:27Z jackdaniel: ,hue, let's talk about lisp
2015-09-02T15:34:30Z jackdaniel: Shinmera is right
2015-09-02T15:34:35Z AeroNotix: sure.
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2015-09-02T15:43:23Z AeroNotix: I'm interested in people's deployment stories, how are you automating builds, doing CI, deploying to remote boxes, etc
2015-09-02T15:43:38Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, why?
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2015-09-02T15:43:54Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: because I'm interested in people's solutions
2015-09-02T15:44:05Z AeroNotix: maybe some interesting tool or library for CL that I didn't know about
2015-09-02T15:44:59Z DeadTrickster: do we have something on cliki on this topic?
2015-09-02T15:45:42Z AeroNotix: http://www.cliki.net/FAQ <= haha
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2015-09-02T15:46:12Z Xach: AeroNotix: people who are doing cool stuff like that have not written a ton about it yet
2015-09-02T15:46:27Z Xach eyes loke`` 
2015-09-02T15:46:54Z AeroNotix: I've done pieces of it myself, I just wonder if there are better ways.
2015-09-02T15:47:07Z AeroNotix: it's not so different from other languages
2015-09-02T15:47:10Z rme: AeroNotix: I've been using buildbot to do testing on Clozure CL.  But that's not really very innovative or interesting.
2015-09-02T15:47:31Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, we building sbcl binaries and ship em as deb packages
2015-09-02T15:47:38Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: this is what I do
2015-09-02T15:47:49Z DeadTrickster: that is what all sane people do
2015-09-02T15:47:54Z DeadTrickster: ;-)
2015-09-02T15:47:55Z AeroNotix: buildapp is pretty cool
2015-09-02T15:49:05Z DeadTrickster: dunno save-lisp-and-die just works
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2015-09-02T15:50:14Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: I asked the same question on the grammarly hn thread, they don't go into details past we use upstart, tried daemonizing before.
2015-09-02T15:50:33Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: that grammarly blog post got me so excited I must admit
2015-09-02T15:50:42Z AeroNotix: Would like to run SBCL in that capacity
2015-09-02T15:50:44Z DeadTrickster: there is one HUGE problem however. Say I want to use dropbox I wrote lib for that and it has CA bundle. Now the problem is - how to bundle CA properly
2015-09-02T15:51:09Z DeadTrickster: Code in single binary form is perfect but all that resource/config stuff
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2015-09-02T15:51:11Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I am going to write an article about deploying Qt apps sometime soon.
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2015-09-02T15:51:20Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: cool
2015-09-02T15:51:31Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: yeah this is an interesting area
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2015-09-02T15:51:48Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: doesn't seem like there is a defacto standard way to configure CL applications
2015-09-02T15:52:02Z DeadTrickster: so now I'm just going through all deps and collect this using hardcoded path
2015-09-02T15:52:23Z AeroNotix: with Erlang you supply a single configuration file, in the release, which has a very specific format for all your included libraries/applications. It's one of the areas where I think Erlang really succeeded
2015-09-02T15:52:25Z DeadTrickster: in erlang world they have priv folder
2015-09-02T15:52:30Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: yup
2015-09-02T15:52:33Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-09-02T15:52:34Z AeroNotix: and sys.config for config
2015-09-02T15:52:38Z DeadTrickster: yea
2015-09-02T15:52:43Z AeroNotix: which has a secret trick for including remote config
2015-09-02T15:53:03Z DeadTrickster: but also say I want to change CA bundle - I want to change just one file no recompilation!!!
2015-09-02T15:53:08Z AeroNotix: if you put a string as one of the elements in sys.config, it will eval that path, we use this at $TYRANNICAL_DAY_JOB to load in per-node config
2015-09-02T15:53:29Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: why can't you use the OS' CA bundle?
2015-09-02T15:54:02Z DeadTrickster: firstly because this is just example, also because I obtain it from official SDK
2015-09-02T15:54:17Z AeroNotix: ok
2015-09-02T15:54:32Z DeadTrickster: I mean let's not focus on this particular example
2015-09-02T15:54:36Z AeroNotix: sure
2015-09-02T15:54:50Z DeadTrickster: say I want to store AWS credentials
2015-09-02T15:55:11Z DeadTrickster: moreover
2015-09-02T15:55:28Z DeadTrickster: if I create C lib I put everything in /etc right?
2015-09-02T15:55:49Z DeadTrickster: let say I have to app and each uses ZS3 ;-)
2015-09-02T15:56:03Z DeadTrickster: looks like I have to have /etc/zs3 or something like that
2015-09-02T15:56:09Z DeadTrickster: or /etc/<app-name>
2015-09-02T15:56:24Z DeadTrickster: this is not clear for me yet
2015-09-02T15:56:35Z DeadTrickster: but I hope i've got the point
2015-09-02T15:56:46Z AeroNotix: The way I tend to do it is that only "applications" have file-based config
2015-09-02T15:56:52Z AeroNotix: libraries are passed their configuration through arguments
2015-09-02T15:56:58Z AeroNotix: they should never read the FS for config
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2015-09-02T15:57:31Z DeadTrickster: My idea - if it's system-wide stuff [like dropbox CA] it goes to /etc/cl-dropbox
2015-09-02T15:57:53Z PuercoPop: Xach: what is the purpose of system-apropos-list? If it is to allow the accumulation of results? If so I was going to purpose a different change. (I was on a old version of the client so I was looking at old code). Code at http://paste.lisp.org/+3BCO
2015-09-02T15:57:54Z AeroNotix: There's #'sdf:system-relative-pathname
2015-09-02T15:57:54Z DeadTrickster: if it is specific to app it goes to /etc/<app>/config.lisp or something like that
2015-09-02T15:57:56Z PuercoPop: The stream argument seems non-controversial. The collecting the results when stream nil seemed like a hack to muddle through. Maybe an aditional argument to transform systems would be better? I'm writing a sly-contrib for ql, with a system apropos being the most complicated part so it would be useful to return more than just system names.
2015-09-02T15:57:58Z AeroNotix: There's #'asdf:system-relative-pathname
2015-09-02T15:58:34Z AeroNotix: But #'asdf:system-relative-pathname doesn't really work if you're saving and image
2015-09-02T15:58:39Z AeroNotix: an image*
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2015-09-02T15:59:52Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, what you use for daemonization?
2015-09-02T16:00:21Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: upstart
2015-09-02T16:00:29Z AeroNotix: I personally prefer other init systems
2015-09-02T16:00:36Z AeroNotix: but this is just want dayjob uses
2015-09-02T16:00:41Z AeroNotix: want => what
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2015-09-02T16:01:07Z AeroNotix: I've used upstart with all languages actually, never really had a problem with it
2015-09-02T16:01:11Z Xach: PuercoPop: it is to collect the results
2015-09-02T16:01:52Z AeroNotix: I wonder if for the specific use-case of having resources as part of a deployment, it makes sense to not use images and just load in the code
2015-09-02T16:02:05Z AeroNotix: then you could use system-relative-pathname and the like
2015-09-02T16:02:12Z AeroNotix: to store resources with the libraries
2015-09-02T16:05:01Z PuercoPop: Xach: would you be okay with exporting system-apropos-list and have it take an extra argument to apply the system as it collects them?
2015-09-02T16:05:23Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, system-relative-pathname to what?
2015-09-02T16:05:24Z Xach: PuercoPop: no
2015-09-02T16:05:35Z Xach: PuercoPop: it is already external.
2015-09-02T16:05:41Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: try it (asdf:system-relative-pathname :some-package "/resources")
2015-09-02T16:06:24Z Xach: PuercoPop: what is the extra argument for?
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2015-09-02T16:06:33Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, I know about it. It just doesn't work if I bould code on another machine and ship binary only
2015-09-02T16:06:39Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: yeah exactly
2015-09-02T16:06:48Z DeadTrickster: that is why /etc
2015-09-02T16:07:07Z AeroNotix: my point above was that, maybe instead of building images, just ship the code onto the box
2015-09-02T16:07:13Z DeadTrickster: nonon
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2015-09-02T16:07:17Z DeadTrickster: no !!
2015-09-02T16:07:21Z AeroNotix: strictly for custom code, not applications
2015-09-02T16:07:36Z AeroNotix: not very well-thought out, just thinking
2015-09-02T16:07:41Z DeadTrickster: I have to maintain list though
2015-09-02T16:07:50Z AeroNotix: what do you mean?
2015-09-02T16:08:01Z DeadTrickster: list of stuff to ship alongside with binary
2015-09-02T16:08:09Z AeroNotix: you do any way, your dependencies
2015-09-02T16:08:25Z AeroNotix: you have to build the image at some point, right?
2015-09-02T16:08:51Z DeadTrickster: yep that is why I building not only binary package with application binary but also what I call -config package
2015-09-02T16:09:06Z DeadTrickster: where I collect all that stuff CA/config etc
2015-09-02T16:09:35Z AeroNotix: hmm
2015-09-02T16:11:20Z PuercoPop: Xach: to extract/reorganize the results, which on second thought it not needed as I can transform using the results returned.
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2015-09-02T16:12:47Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix,  At first there was just binary with hard compiled config stuff. At one moment I was unable to rebuild even from stable branch :-) (as well as our CI) and we separated these. Now I can just send signal to daemon and it reloads everything (almost) without service interrupts
2015-09-02T16:13:48Z AeroNotix: cool
2015-09-02T16:15:56Z DeadTrickster: when it works :-)
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2015-09-02T16:19:26Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, so you ship prebuilt deb binary packages too, right? How you deal with configs?
2015-09-02T16:21:32Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: for erlang?
2015-09-02T16:21:38Z DeadTrickster: lisp
2015-09-02T16:21:55Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: 1 sec
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2015-09-02T16:22:37Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit/blob/d6dee7872734a5bf98909e2316b9479fac6586d9/user.lisp
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2015-09-02T16:22:41Z AeroNotix: the config is lisp itself
2015-09-02T16:22:52Z AeroNotix: loaded when the app is brought up
2015-09-02T16:23:16Z DeadTrickster: and it packaged as separate deb?
2015-09-02T16:24:54Z AeroNotix: the application can be packaged as a deb yeah
2015-09-02T16:25:03Z AeroNotix: but the config doesn't come with the package, or a different package
2015-09-02T16:25:13Z AeroNotix: it's an optional config file and the application does its own defaults.
2015-09-02T16:25:32Z Xach: PuercoPop: I don't understand your pull request. Is it still valid?
2015-09-02T16:26:16Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, I see, cool project btw
2015-09-02T16:26:37Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: I wish I had more time to work on it
2015-09-02T16:26:40Z DeadTrickster: last update feb 14 oh those lonely nights
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2015-09-02T16:26:57Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: haha, that's what you get when you are married!
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2015-09-02T16:27:40Z DeadTrickster: yeah, I feel you
2015-09-02T16:27:44Z PuercoPop: Xach: the PR yes, the changes I asked about here no. It only adds a stream option to system-apropos as customary with functions that write to stdout
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2015-09-02T16:28:16Z Xach: PuercoPop: I don't want to add it just because it is customary. Is there another reason?
2015-09-02T16:28:32Z PuercoPop: No
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2015-09-02T16:28:43Z Xach: Ok. Neither ROOM nor APROPOS take a stream argument.
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2015-09-02T16:29:53Z PuercoPop: No biggie, Consider adding the docstring to system-apropos-list at least.
2015-09-02T16:30:21Z Xach: Ok
2015-09-02T16:31:38Z DeadTrickster: if i declared foreign function using uffi with cstring as argument how can I control conversion encoding?
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2015-09-02T16:36:25Z AeroNotix: Xach: did anything fruitful come out of the funding discussion for Quicklisp?
2015-09-02T16:36:44Z Xach: AeroNotix: Almost universally positive responses
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2015-09-02T16:37:00Z AeroNotix: awesome!
2015-09-02T16:37:03Z Xach: I have a lot of things up in the air right now and don't have the right amount of time to get it started, but I hope to soon.
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2015-09-02T16:37:16Z AeroNotix: Xach: good luck
2015-09-02T16:37:19Z Xach: Thanks.
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2015-09-02T16:37:41Z Xach: Hexstream's insane response and attacks were seriously stressful for a while, but I've ignored it for the past few days so it hasn't bothered me as much.
2015-09-02T16:38:08Z AeroNotix: Xach: link?
2015-09-02T16:38:17Z Xach: That's too pejorative. I think he has a real problem. It affects me, but it obviously affects him more.
2015-09-02T16:38:25Z Xach: AeroNotix: i wrote a bit about it on planet lisp.
2015-09-02T16:39:00Z AeroNotix: Xach: the jean-phillipe article?
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2015-09-02T16:39:03Z Xach: AeroNotix: yes
2015-09-02T16:39:11Z AeroNotix: will read, hold on
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2015-09-02T16:39:31Z Xach: I don't need to know about any new things from him since then.
2015-09-02T16:40:01Z AeroNotix: yikes, his twitter bio is kind of ridiculous
2015-09-02T16:40:44Z Xach sticks fingers in ears, sings "la la la"
2015-09-02T16:41:01Z dwchandler: Xach: best wishes on crowdfunding. also, as I mentioned on reddit, you really might want to link https://www.quicklisp.org/donations.html from the beta page. Unless that's somehow at crosspurposes to future crowdfunding
2015-09-02T16:41:33Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: is this you? https://twitter.com/eudxa
2015-09-02T16:41:38Z eudoxia: yes
2015-09-02T16:41:41Z AeroNotix: ok thx
2015-09-02T16:44:08Z AeroNotix: I'm really amazed that people have conspiracy theories about the "political hierarchy of the common lisp community"
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2015-09-02T16:44:56Z Xach: There are a number of people around common lisp with unusual beliefs and behaviors. I wonder if it is similar for other languages.
2015-09-02T16:45:14Z eudoxia: i know, right? especially considering how there are far more exciting conspiracy theories
2015-09-02T16:45:30Z AeroNotix: Xach: I wouldn't let this guy bother you
2015-09-02T16:45:42Z Xach: I have stopped paying attention.
2015-09-02T16:45:45Z AeroNotix: Good.
2015-09-02T16:45:48Z eudoxia wonders what hexstream thinks about MH370
2015-09-02T16:46:32Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: naturally it was John McCarthy's extra-dimensional parenthesis chemtrail HAARP laser that downed the aircraft
2015-09-02T16:46:37Z Xach: I usually ignore WJ on comp.lang.lisp, but I checked a couple posts lately and they are loaded with racist, anti-semitic conspiracy theory signatures these days.
2015-09-02T16:46:45Z Xach: I don't remember those earlier on
2015-09-02T16:46:54Z AeroNotix: What a bummer.
2015-09-02T16:47:13Z AeroNotix: I've been in and out of #lisp for about 5 years, I've never really seen any of what this guy is saying
2015-09-02T16:47:19Z Xach: If I had a lot more time, I would try to collect his articles and write a bit about them. I think it is fascinating.
2015-09-02T16:47:41Z Xach: WJ is different from Hexstream. Just pondering the nature of unusual CL "people".
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2015-09-02T16:50:21Z eudoxia: it's amazing that someone has the, "patience", to go through every post on c.l.l converting every code example to Ruby or something
2015-09-02T16:50:44Z eudoxia: somebody ought to point WJ in the direction of, i dunno, cancer research
2015-09-02T16:50:46Z DeadTrickster: can I at least read sbcl manual somewhere else?
2015-09-02T16:50:48Z Xach: For many years now!
2015-09-02T16:51:31Z Xach: DeadTrickster: it comes with sbcl sources. but you need extra tools to build it.
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2015-09-02T16:51:50Z dlowe: People who go against the grain are more likely to be at the more unusual sides of any metric
2015-09-02T16:51:52Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I can put up a copy if you like
2015-09-02T16:52:11Z dlowe: So you tend to find strong personalities in niche communities
2015-09-02T16:52:28Z DeadTrickster: yes please I have to read that bits about ffi and alien stuff asap
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2015-09-02T16:52:56Z PuercoPop: Just went to comp.lang.lisp and found someone announced this cl ide: https://bitbucket.org/budden/clcon/wiki/Screenshots
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2015-09-02T16:54:03Z eudoxia: fuck tcl/tk makes me physically ill to look at
2015-09-02T16:54:09Z AeroNotix: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/637485314869739521 this is so ridiculous
2015-09-02T16:54:14Z Xach: DeadTrickster: http://xach.com/sbcl/manual/
2015-09-02T16:54:35Z DeadTrickster: Xach, thank you very much ;-)
2015-09-02T16:54:43Z Xach: no problem
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2015-09-02T16:55:52Z DeadTrickster: I saved it just in case
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2015-09-02T16:57:26Z PuercoPop: eudoxia: I always read it can the default can be improved easily. That scroll bar is horrible though, reminds me of xpdf.
2015-09-02T16:58:27Z jlarocco: inside of Slime, if I run (format t "some long string of text that is output first~a~%" some-list-that-causes-wrapping), then the list will be printed so that it wraps to the next line, indented
2015-09-02T16:58:29Z eudoxia: PuercoPop: i've yet to see a tcl/tk app that doesn't look like shit though
2015-09-02T16:58:40Z jlarocco: is there a way to set the line width that's used for the wrapping?
2015-09-02T16:58:42Z eudoxia: (or maybe i have, and didn't notice it was tcl/tk)
2015-09-02T16:59:02Z DeadTrickster: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/637479424817033216
2015-09-02T16:59:03Z jlarocco: I'm not sure if whether it's emacs, slime, or sbcl that needs configuring
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2015-09-02T17:00:05Z jasom: clhs 22.2.1.1
2015-09-02T17:00:06Z specbot: Dynamic Control of the Arrangement of Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_baa.htm
2015-09-02T17:00:08Z Xach: jlarocco: *print-right-margin* might help.
2015-09-02T17:00:56Z jlarocco: thanks!  that would have taken forever to discover via google
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2015-09-02T17:02:19Z Xach: no problem
2015-09-02T17:03:06Z jlarocco: yep, that fixes it
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2015-09-02T17:15:16Z resttime: Nature of a niche community is all individuals can be a larger concentration in it, rather than the community being "smaller" I would say
2015-09-02T17:15:35Z resttime: Lisp especially since things are usually written by a single person
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2015-09-02T17:16:39Z resttime: I know I had some XP where I mention writing game bindings then someone asks
2015-09-02T17:16:48Z resttime: something like "Is that you resttime?"
2015-09-02T17:17:01Z resttime: I'm like what...
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2015-09-02T17:18:14Z resttime: Then it makes sense because I think I am the only person who wrote "new" game bindings
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2015-09-02T17:19:09Z resttime: Errr, game bindings referring to an FFI to a C library
2015-09-02T17:19:21Z resttime: *refer
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2015-09-02T17:54:20Z rick-monster: hey I've been messing around with linux jack realtime audio and ccl - seems to me that full gc interrupts the realtime audio processing thread, causing audio dropouts at anything approaching low-latency.
2015-09-02T17:56:02Z rick-monster: my question is: is it theoretically possible to have the audio thread override the priority of full gc?
2015-09-02T17:57:27Z reb`: rick-monster: I don't understand your question.  Please explain.
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2015-09-02T17:57:55Z scymtym: rick-monster: are you aware of http://incudine.sourceforge.net/ ? i think they avoided or solved at least some of those problems.
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2015-09-02T17:58:57Z rick-monster: scymtm - no I hadn't seen that!
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2015-09-02T17:59:40Z Shinmera: IIRC asynchronous GC is a heavy research topic right now and no production variant exists yet.
2015-09-02T17:59:56Z AeroNotix: Xach: do you provide a buildapp tar with version numbers in the path?
2015-09-02T18:00:21Z AeroNotix: oh there's releases on github
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2015-09-02T18:05:28Z rick-monster: scyntm - interesting sounds like they've somehow managed to set up the callback from jack into sbcl without anything blowing up...
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2015-09-02T20:08:18Z jasom: Shinmera: there are several existing concurrent GCs
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2015-09-02T20:08:25Z jasom: rick-monster: if you dn't allocate memory, a GC will not happen
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2015-09-02T20:09:52Z Shinmera: jasom: I must've misremembered then
2015-09-02T20:11:19Z jasom: Shinmera: there are also guaranteed-maximum-latency GCs
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2015-09-02T20:12:44Z ehu: jackdaniel: hi. I just picked any one commit from your ansi-test PR (https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/commit/9858efa49cafa1c4e1026364d1744a3503063185) why did you remove all the (in-package :cl-test) forms?
2015-09-02T20:12:46Z jasom: in general, most incremental GCs can be adapted to be a bounded-latency GC, as most incremental GCs have a bounded amount of work as a function of the amount of mutator work
2015-09-02T20:12:50Z ehu: (what does it add)
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2015-09-02T20:14:26Z ehu: jackdaniel: I like your use of logical pathnames.
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2015-09-02T20:36:50Z rick-monster: ok so got incudine up and running after a bit of a fight
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2015-09-02T20:39:41Z rick-monster: jasom so has there been any work to try and adapt ccl or sbcl GC to bounded latency?
2015-09-02T20:40:28Z rme: I'd love to do that.  Just need money.
2015-09-02T20:41:07Z rme: I have to quit complaining about money. Sorry.
2015-09-02T20:45:18Z Xach: it's love what makes progress in lisp!
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2015-09-02T20:47:03Z rick-monster: I'm doing some realtime audio processing, but simultaneously ciphoning off a copy of each audio window off down a calispel concurrency channel in order to do some heavier visualisation/processing which can't keep up with the realtime thread
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2015-09-02T20:50:38Z rick-monster: just curious really whether it's possible to set up some system that would *allow* me to do this...
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2015-09-02T20:53:59Z AeroNotix: jasom: you mean for lisp?
2015-09-02T20:54:10Z rick-monster: interestingly in the sbcl/incudine setup I can't trigger audio dropouts by running #'sb-ext:gc
2015-09-02T20:55:32Z rick-monster: but still getting dropouts every 20s when I generate lots of garbage in the realtime thread
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2015-09-02T20:57:53Z dlowe: I think the answer for now is to see if you can generate less garbage
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2015-09-02T20:58:55Z jisfon: Okay, so, I started reading SICP... Come to find out, there's Calculus in the book later. How in the hell am I going to tackle that? Do I really have to know Calculus to proceed pass that point?
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2015-09-02T21:00:22Z Bike: it'll help
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2015-09-02T21:00:48Z Bike: it is written for MIT EECS students who were expected to know calculus from prerequisites or high school
2015-09-02T21:01:33Z jisfon: But, I only made it to AFDA. :(
2015-09-02T21:01:54Z Bike: minion: what does AFDA stand for?
2015-09-02T21:01:54Z minion: Axilla Fabled Deprival Admonishingly
2015-09-02T21:02:40Z jisfon: Algebra, Functions, and Data Analysis
2015-09-02T21:03:26Z Bike: well, that's pretty much precalculus, sounds like.
2015-09-02T21:03:47Z Bike: SICP's bits and wikipedia might be enough to get you a basic understanding of calculus.
2015-09-02T21:05:04Z rme: What's the calculus in question?  Symbolic differentiation or something?
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2015-09-02T21:05:58Z Bike: i think it has numerical integration as well
2015-09-02T21:06:32Z Bike: symbolic differentiation you could probably do without knowing calculus, really, you just wouldn't know what the point is
2015-09-02T21:06:50Z rme: Yes, that's what I was thinking.
2015-09-02T21:07:10Z rme: Just follow some rules.
2015-09-02T21:08:25Z Bike: pretty sure SICP also has formal power series, though, which might be hard to understand
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2015-09-02T21:12:37Z Bike: actually i think i had a hard time with those even after college board claimed i knew calculus, so maybe it wouldn't matter, heheh.
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2015-09-02T21:27:53Z jasom: AeroNotix: there have been ones for lisp, but not recently (much of the GC research in the 70s used lisp as the example).
2015-09-02T21:27:56Z rick-monster: this is fascinating - so in the sbcl/incudine environment it seems I can totally get away with consing like crazy inside the realtime thread by creating a dedicated gc thread triggering every 2 seconds
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2015-09-02T21:28:54Z rick-monster: (under conditions that were causing audio glitches every ~4 seconds)
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2015-09-02T21:33:37Z rick-monster: achieving 50ms latency now on a laptop & linux kernel which won't give better than that with *any* jack software
2015-09-02T21:34:14Z jasom: rick-monster: I'm surprised, I thought 10ms would be acheivable
2015-09-02T21:34:58Z rick-monster: yes I had a slackware box years ago running an rt-patched 2.6 kernel that got well under 1ms
2015-09-02T21:35:37Z rick-monster: but this laptop is a chromebook running some funky ubuntu variant and a usb soundcard.  It won't give really good RT performance under any circumstances
2015-09-02T21:36:05Z jasom: oh yeah, USB soundcards are death to latency
2015-09-02T21:37:52Z jasom: and probably no PREEMPT_RT on ubuntu
2015-09-02T21:38:28Z jasom: though ~10ms should be doable under a normal load on a non PREEMPT_RT kernel
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2015-09-02T21:42:11Z rick-monster: yea something is rubbish about this setup and I'm not particularly interested to diagnose it - better to set up a dedicated low-latency machine with more plausible hardware/linux kernel and see if this sbcl/jack hack can keep up
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2015-09-02T21:46:38Z jasom: My experience with video is that if you CONS you will run into issues in the 10s of ms with sbcl (there were hiccups when consing and this was 60fps so ~17ms window)
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2015-09-02T21:50:56Z reb`: jisfon: Why don't you know calculus?
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2015-09-02T21:51:52Z rick-monster: zoinks - just tried running as low as the usb soundcard will go (11.6ms) and it doesn't break a sweat!
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2015-09-02T21:53:09Z jisfon: jisfon: Well, I'm autodidact and only made it to Algebra, Functions and Data Analysis (AFDA) in high school. (Hell, my antiquated school didn't even have a calculus class.)
2015-09-02T21:53:19Z jisfon: *red`
2015-09-02T21:53:43Z jisfon: My bad there. :P
2015-09-02T21:53:58Z jisfon: *reb`
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2015-09-02T21:59:01Z Xach: ehu: Do you maintain cl-irc? the latest sbcl breaks it
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2015-09-02T21:59:46Z ehu: Xach: I haven't had the need for a looong time, but yes, I'd like it to keep working.
2015-09-02T22:00:12Z ehu: I'll check building it with the latest SBCL on Friday
2015-09-02T22:00:15Z ehu puts a note
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2015-09-02T22:20:01Z rick-monster: hah - so running gc in the background every 2s I can cons up to 17 meg per second (of which 4 meg is cons-ed *within* the realtime thread) without dropouts
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2015-09-02T22:21:21Z rick-monster: and that's at 5ms latency on a system poorly set up for realtime!
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2015-09-02T22:24:28Z JuanDaugherty: you chose that over cheney?
2015-09-02T22:24:40Z JuanDaugherty: and are you talking about sbcl?
2015-09-02T22:24:52Z sebboh: So, I am writing a toy program and I did (defun read-matrix ...).  Seemed like a good name to me, little did I know, COMMON-LISP-USER::READ-MATRIX already exists.  Fine, I'll put my code in a package.  ...I'm missing something.  If I do (make-package :bitgraph) then (in-package bitgraph) in a slime repl, then my prompt changes to BITGRAPH>, as expected.  But when I start a fresh slime session, open a file, put those two lines in, and
2015-09-02T22:24:53Z sebboh: C-c C-k, I get "The name BITGRAPH does not designate any package"
2015-09-02T22:25:39Z sebboh: on the (in-package ...) line.
2015-09-02T22:27:05Z jasom: rick-monster: are you doing a (gc :full t) every 2 seconds?
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2015-09-02T22:28:15Z AeroNotix: sebboh: use defpackage
2015-09-02T22:28:41Z sebboh: (off topic, that last /part had the coolest vanity domain I've ever seen.)
2015-09-02T22:31:23Z sebboh: AeroNotix: ...I think that worked and the current error I have is unrelated.  Thanks!
2015-09-02T22:31:31Z rick-monster: jasom: with the following tweak to gc behaviour I'm now unable to trigger any audio dropouts - (consing 27 meg per second of which 4 is consed within audio thread)
2015-09-02T22:31:49Z rick-monster: sorry here's the tweak http://paste.lisp.org/display/154685
2015-09-02T22:32:45Z AeroNotix: sebboh: make-package isn't defpackage
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2015-09-02T22:35:40Z sebboh: AeroNotix: right. when you said defpackage, I googled (well, searched) it and found (defpackage #:bitgraph (:use :cl))(in-package :bitgraph) which seems to have silenced the style warnings regarding redefining some defuns...
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2015-09-02T22:38:23Z AeroNotix: sebboh: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-09-02T22:38:27Z AeroNotix: some notes on shadowing
2015-09-02T22:39:22Z jasom: scymtym: Got your tests running on my yaml parser: 592 Tests passed, 57 Tests failed
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2015-09-02T22:40:44Z scymtym: jasom: nice. better double-check the test code though. maybe i messed up somewhere.
2015-09-02T22:40:54Z scymtym: 57 is similar to what i last had
2015-09-02T22:40:56Z jasom: scymtym: I'm not using your test-code, I wrote my own
2015-09-02T22:41:02Z scymtym: i see
2015-09-02T22:41:09Z jasom: just using the test-cases
2015-09-02T22:41:27Z scymtym: they are taken from the haskell reference implementation
2015-09-02T22:41:40Z jasom: you told me
2015-09-02T22:42:00Z jasom: I had to make a few tweaks (e.g. s-indent-le becomes s-indent-<=)
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2015-09-02T22:44:32Z aeth: So if I am making an object, and I need to use some stuff in its creation but don't need them afterwards, would it be better to write a make-foo that uses them instead of using them in an initialize-instance and never again?
2015-09-02T22:45:19Z aeth: I guess I could set up the make-foo such that the stuff used to make foo gets garbage collected later, right?
2015-09-02T22:45:50Z AeroNotix: aeth: write make-foo
2015-09-02T22:46:10Z aeth: OK I just wasn't sure if it was more idiomatic to write a make-foo or to set the variables to nil in the initialize-instance
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2015-09-02T22:47:02Z AeroNotix: ok
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2015-09-02T23:00:03Z jasom: AeroNotix: you can use &allow-other-keys in the initialize instance
2015-09-02T23:00:31Z jasom: that was supposed to be to aeth
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2015-09-02T23:11:24Z BillyZane2: I am trying to write a function that takes in 2 arguments: an atom and a tree. it recursively searches the tree and returns true if the atom was found
2015-09-02T23:11:26Z BillyZane2: http://ideone.com/HNzxBa
2015-09-02T23:12:31Z BillyZane2: the logic of the code is as follows: check if list is empty. then traverse the list. if the element of the list is a list, recursively call the function on the list. if it's an atom, check to see if it's equal to the item being searched for
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2015-09-02T23:13:30Z BillyZane2: when i try to load it in clisp, i get the following error:
2015-09-02T23:13:34Z BillyZane2: - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (IF (ATOM (X)) (IF (EQUAL X A) T) NIL) should be a lambda expression
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2015-09-02T23:27:56Z jasom: BillyZane2: right after "do you have two parentheses in a row
2015-09-02T23:28:04Z jasom: s/"do/"do"
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2015-09-02T23:38:26Z jasom: scymtym__: the haskell reference implementation has some extra rules to make a streaming-parse possible, which is where most of my failures have been so-far.
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2015-09-02T23:43:25Z BillyZane2: jasom, i'm not sure what you mean
2015-09-02T23:46:03Z jasom: ( s_separate (n .+ 1) c & c_ns_properties (n .+ 1) c & ( s_l_comments >?) ?)  <-- that one right there.  the spec doesn't have the negative-lookahead on s_l_comments for that rule
2015-09-02T23:46:22Z jasom: and without it, you need to backtrack more than esrap will
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2015-09-02T23:49:23Z jasom: The spec seems to assume an exhaustive search of the parse space will happen so e.g. (and (or a empty) a) will try "aa" and "a", but esrap will fail to match "a" as an or expression will always match only the first possibility.
2015-09-02T23:49:58Z jasom: more simply (and (? a) a) will never match "aa" on esrap
2015-09-02T23:51:13Z BillyZane2: jasom, yeah there are 2 parenthesis in front of do. i was hoping to do a large check.. maybe a cond
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2015-09-02T23:53:39Z jasom: BillyZane2: ((if foo)) is a function call to a function named (if foo), which is not a valid function name, so hence the error
2015-09-02T23:55:34Z jasom: just removing the superfluous starting paren, (plus it's closing partner) should be sufficient to have something syntactically correct
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2015-09-02T23:56:17Z jasom: a single "do" will subsume all following compound forms
2015-09-02T23:56:31Z BillyZane2: jasom, i see
2015-09-02T23:56:42Z jasom: oh well you also have (x) which is a function call to x
2015-09-02T23:56:50Z BillyZane2: hmmm
2015-09-02T23:56:51Z jasom: I'm guessing you don't have a function named x
2015-09-02T23:56:51Z BillyZane2: i see
2015-09-02T23:56:55Z BillyZane2: :D
2015-09-02T23:57:03Z BillyZane2: jasom, thank you for your assistance. i will try to fix it
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2015-09-02T23:58:04Z jasom: Lastly, you can probably move the (listp x) to be just the "else" clause of the if, as the only case value for which both listp and atomp is true is nil, which won't need a recursive call anyway
2015-09-02T23:58:10Z BillyZane2: http://ideone.com/3HFlsj
2015-09-02T23:58:13Z BillyZane2: is this better?
2015-09-02T23:58:35Z BillyZane2: jasom, good idea
2015-09-02T23:58:41Z jasom: with cond you won't need several IFs
2015-09-02T23:58:58Z BillyZane2: jasom, true, i was attempting to rewrite that part using cond
2015-09-02T23:59:03Z mordocai: How does the common lisp community feel about the GPL in general? Like, if I start a new project (open source game is what is currently in my head) with a GPL license will that alienate me from a good portion of the lisp community?
2015-09-02T23:59:13Z jasom: (cond ((atom x) (if (equal x A) T)) ((listp x) (searchlist A x)))
2015-09-02T23:59:22Z mordocai: I prefer GPL license but tend to bow to community norms.
2015-09-02T23:59:41Z jasom: mordocai: the majority prefers MIT/X11, a minority prefers GPL and a minority won't touch GPL
2015-09-03T00:01:21Z jasom: mordocai: also note that there are some gray areas with how to interpret the GPL for lisp.
2015-09-03T00:02:01Z jasom: mordocai: pjb licenses all of his stuff under GPL and I occasionally see someone complain about that in here.
2015-09-03T00:02:18Z mordocai: jasom: Yeah, I read a bit about GPL compat. I saw the CL-GPL or whatever. The paper I saw seemed to think the regular GPL would apply though.
2015-09-03T00:02:29Z BillyZane2: jasom, thank you for the help. i will show you my latest version if you want to see it
2015-09-03T00:02:45Z mordocai: I guess one thing I have going for me is that I only plan on releasing the primary thing as GPL, not any libraries I may write.
2015-09-03T00:02:54Z BillyZane2: http://ideone.com/f2fHdY
2015-09-03T00:02:57Z mordocai: I notice people tend to be more annoyed about GPL libraries
2015-09-03T00:03:10Z jasom: mordocai: it probably does, and many people think that CL-GPL muddies it more rather than less.  I use MIT/X11 for my stuff (except when I use something from pjb)
2015-09-03T00:03:34Z jasom: mordocai: indeed, people are mostly annoyed when they find a library that does what it needs, then discover the license is incompatible
2015-09-03T00:03:47Z jasom: applications are less of an issue
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2015-09-03T00:04:09Z BillyZane2: jasom, when i load the function, it worked, but i tried using it.... and...
2015-09-03T00:04:19Z BillyZane2: (searchlist 5' (1 2 3 4 5)) NIL
2015-09-03T00:04:27Z mordocai: I tend to 3 clause BSD libraries and AGPL applications in other languages. Sounds like that'll probably work out here (Though I might go MIT/X11 for libraries since it is the norm)
2015-09-03T00:05:23Z jasom: BillyZane2: you aren't returning T, you're just calculating it
2015-09-03T00:05:35Z BillyZane2: jasom. oooooo...
2015-09-03T00:05:39Z jasom: you can use (return t) to just return it out of the loop (which in this case is sufficient)
2015-09-03T00:05:56Z BillyZane2: ohh ok
2015-09-03T00:05:57Z AeroNotix: What are some things that people hate about Common Lisp?
2015-09-03T00:06:08Z jasom: AeroNotix: reader isn't programmable enough
2015-09-03T00:06:18Z AeroNotix: jasom: How so?
2015-09-03T00:06:42Z BillyZane2: jasom, worked so far :D
2015-09-03T00:06:45Z jasom: simple hooks when it encounters e.g. a pseudo-number or a symbol would allow you to implement e.g. package-local nicknames as a library
2015-09-03T00:06:45Z mordocai: Noobs hate the parenthesis, but that's the lisp family not just Common Lisp.
2015-09-03T00:07:19Z mordocai: I mean that as new people, not derogatory FYI
2015-09-03T00:07:31Z mordocai forgets people use that as an insult sometimes.
2015-09-03T00:08:35Z BillyZane2: jasom, i tried the following: (searchlist 5' ((1 2 (3 4 5) ((7 8) (7 8 9)) (10)))) NIL
2015-09-03T00:09:06Z BillyZane2: it seems like it returns nil if it finds it
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2015-09-03T00:09:14Z jasom: BillyZane2: a few style comments: 1) your indentation is non-idiomatic.  Depending on your editor this may be easy or hard to fix; 2) use all lowercase for variables.  By default the reader will read in both "t" and "T" as the same thing: "T"; 3) searchlist should probably be search-list since it's two words (the equivalent of searchList in idiomatic python indentation)
2015-09-03T00:09:36Z jasom: BillyZane2: think about the recursive case
2015-09-03T00:09:45Z BillyZane2: jasom, agreed. i will make the changes
2015-09-03T00:10:15Z jasom: how about (when (searchlist A x) (return t)) for the recursive case
2015-09-03T00:10:29Z jasom: think about how that's different from what you have now
2015-09-03T00:10:45Z BillyZane2: hmmm
2015-09-03T00:10:52Z BillyZane2: i honestly don't see the difference
2015-09-03T00:11:01Z BillyZane2: ohhh
2015-09-03T00:11:06Z jasom: what happens right now if your recursive case returns T?  What if it returns NIL?
2015-09-03T00:11:21Z BillyZane2: hmm so in the recursive case.... if it returns true, it returns true
2015-09-03T00:11:27Z BillyZane2: i see
2015-09-03T00:11:28Z jasom: otherwise, keep looking
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2015-09-03T00:11:57Z jasom: you can't just do a (return (searchlist A x)) because that would give up immediately if the first nested list didn't have it.
2015-09-03T00:12:05Z BillyZane2: yes you are right. if it found it in the recursive case, it returns T, then it returns nil. with your fix, it returns T if it finds T in a recursively called version of itself
2015-09-03T00:12:17Z akkad hunts for a nice thread safe structure to store a lot of entries to be submitted in blocks to postmodern
2015-09-03T00:13:26Z BillyZane2: jasom, is what i said correct? btw it's working perfectly now
2015-09-03T00:13:41Z jasom: BillyZane2: right
2015-09-03T00:14:13Z BillyZane2: jasom. thank you. i've been asking people for help to solve this for two days. everyone kept hastling me, as if i wasn't trying to do this on my own.
2015-09-03T00:14:18Z jasom: If it finds it, it returns T up one level, but prior to your last fix, the next level ignored the return value of the recursive call
2015-09-03T00:14:40Z BillyZane2: wiw
2015-09-03T00:14:46Z BillyZane2: that is very interesting
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2015-09-03T00:15:18Z BillyZane2: jasom, again, thank you, i gotta go
2015-09-03T00:15:33Z jasom: The nice thing about recursion is that you typically only have to reason one level deep (either the base case or N+1, without worrying about what N is)
2015-09-03T00:15:38Z BillyZane2: i am in a library and i gotta go tutor someone
2015-09-03T00:15:39Z jasom: BillyZane2: np, have a good day
2015-09-03T00:15:56Z BillyZane2: jasom, i will be back :D
2015-09-03T00:16:05Z BillyZane2: not to keep asking you questions
2015-09-03T00:16:08Z BillyZane2: you've done enough
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2015-09-03T00:16:33Z BillyZane2: i guess what i'm saying is, you have my respect
2015-09-03T00:16:52Z BillyZane2: but i don't wanty ou to think i'm leaving in a hurry as soon as you help me fix this
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2015-09-03T00:16:56Z BillyZane2: alright, gg
2015-09-03T00:17:31Z Ober: akkad: don't threads. you want a queue.
2015-09-03T00:18:11Z jasom: Ober: a thread-safe queue is one option to solve the problem.
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2015-09-03T00:19:01Z AeroNotix: queues are like toilets
2015-09-03T00:19:10Z AeroNotix: when they get filled up, they overflow.
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2015-09-03T00:21:38Z jasom: AeroNotix: some block
2015-09-03T00:22:18Z jasom: AeroNotix: that's another thing I miss in CL, is some way to do non-preemptive multitasking (the best there is is the code-walker call/cc, which seems fragile to me)
2015-09-03T00:22:33Z jasom: scheme gets it for free with call/cc as a primitiv
2015-09-03T00:22:48Z jasom: as well as things like yield being easy to implement
2015-09-03T00:23:14Z jasom: the yield statement of python can be a pain when I'm porting algorithms from python
2015-09-03T00:23:35Z Ober: jasom: without-interrupts not work?
2015-09-03T00:24:35Z jasom: Ober: I don't know how that would work; it's fairly heavyweight to create an OS thread for it though, when a green thread would do
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2015-09-03T00:26:38Z jasom: I saw a pretty slick system where each object was its own green thread, communication was via fixed-size queues, and since you could only context-switch on a function call, you only needed to save callee-save registers in the TCB
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2015-09-03T00:27:19Z brucem: jasom: what system was that?
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2015-09-03T00:27:39Z jasom: brucem: it was an in-house OS for the control-processor on an ATM data switch; 1000s of scheduler loops per second on a 200MHz 4xx Power
2015-09-03T00:27:51Z Ober: jasom: sounds like erlang
2015-09-03T00:28:00Z brucem: jasom: nice.
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2015-09-03T00:30:42Z jasom: Ober: the implementor was a big fan of smalltalk, and he figured it would really simplify things if each thread was an agent that acted like a smalltalk object, where messages were passed in queues
2015-09-03T00:30:52Z Ober: nice
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2015-09-03T00:33:07Z jasom: so each LED had its own thread, and there was a "blink" thread which you could send ADD/REMOVE messages to it; it maintained a list of LEDs that had been added to it, and the implementation was roughly (loop (for led in blink-list do (send led ON)) (usleep 250000) (for led in blink-list do (send led OFF))
2015-09-03T00:33:11Z jasom: thought this was all in C
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2015-09-03T00:58:51Z rick-monster: aiee - jasom just realised those explicit gc calls are in fact stopping audio processing, although it's not reporting dropped frames to the backend.  Didn't realise that till I actually put on headphones.  Performance *did* seem too good to be true!
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2015-09-03T02:25:08Z emaczen: I have a definition of a "ps-file" class extending "cl-source-file" in a system I call "asdf-utils", and I want to use this "ps-file" symbol inside a components form inside an .asd file -- what is the recommended way of getting commonlisp to recognize it?
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2015-09-03T02:25:23Z emaczen: In my .asd file, I am in the asdf-user package.
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2015-09-03T02:36:04Z emaczen: Is there an asdf option that allows this? I have tried putting "asdf-utils" in :defsystem-depends-on wihtout any luck.
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2015-09-03T02:39:14Z emaczen: It does work if I put the "ps-file" class definition right above the defsystem form, however as I intend to write a lot of systems that will have ps-files, I believe this commonality should be factored out into an "asdf-utils" package and then depended upon any package that will contain a ps-file
2015-09-03T02:44:05Z nikki93: what are you guys' favorite ui frameworks?
2015-09-03T02:44:13Z nikki93: in terms of interface (programming interface) design?
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2015-09-03T02:52:22Z emaczen: Can someone help me with :defsystem-depends-on ? -- this seems to be exactly what I want (an asdf extension for another file-type) but I can't seem to get it to work.
2015-09-03T02:53:53Z Bike: How is it not working?
2015-09-03T02:54:41Z emaczen: Bike: Let me make a paste real fast to ensure clear communication.
2015-09-03T02:55:20Z emaczen: But the issue is that it does not recognize a symbol exported by the same package that is listed in the defsystem-depends-on list
2015-09-03T02:55:52Z Xach: the form must be read before any part of it is evaluated
2015-09-03T02:56:05Z Xach: that is a limitation of :defsystem-depends-on that I think keywords somehow get around, but I don't remember.
2015-09-03T02:57:33Z Ober notes how many packages set (safety 0)
2015-09-03T02:58:27Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BCY.
2015-09-03T02:58:29Z Xach: Ober: "how many" as in "many do it"? or merely measuring the quantity, small or large?
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2015-09-03T02:58:48Z Ober: oh just debugging why I keep getting memory corruption on sbcl
2015-09-03T02:58:50Z emaczen: In my paste, ps-file is a symbol exported by asdf-utils
2015-09-03T02:58:59Z Xach: Ober: I try to avoid code like that, but I also don't really notice it until it burns me. And then I try to stop using that project, if possible.
2015-09-03T02:59:15Z Xach: Ober: Who is the culprit?
2015-09-03T02:59:29Z Ober: well IOlib is ok to use it since it's the most mathematically proven lisp that I've ever seen.
2015-09-03T02:59:35Z Ober: Xach not sure yet.
2015-09-03T02:59:54Z Ober: trying to reduce test case to isolate it
2015-09-03T03:00:46Z Ober: lw/ccl/cmucl/acl can't reproduce it. lots of threads and postmodern work
2015-09-03T03:01:19Z akkad: Ober: iolib is that awesome?
2015-09-03T03:01:39Z bitwiggler: ummm. no he's being funny
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2015-09-03T03:03:21Z emaczen: A note about my paste -- I just had to rename the package from "asdf-utils" to "my-asdf-utils" to avoid conflicts
2015-09-03T03:03:31Z emaczen: but it still doesnt recognize the symbol ps-file in the components form...
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2015-09-03T03:20:49Z emaczen: Did anybody see my paste?
2015-09-03T03:21:03Z Xach: emaczen: I saw it, but I don't know how to help. Sorry.
2015-09-03T03:21:35Z emaczen: Is the problem clear at least?
2015-09-03T03:21:54Z pyon: Is there any way to make it so that `defvar` introduces a symbol into the function namespace, rather than the value namespace?
2015-09-03T03:22:15Z Bike: no. there are no dynamically bound functions.
2015-09-03T03:22:17Z rme: Use defun?
2015-09-03T03:22:24Z Xach: emaczen: Not exactly - you don't show the error you get
2015-09-03T03:22:24Z Bike: you can do (setf (fdefinition symbol) whatever)
2015-09-03T03:22:33Z Xach: emaczen: I mean, just going from the paste.
2015-09-03T03:22:35Z pyon: Ah.
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2015-09-03T03:23:20Z emaczen: Can you edit pastes?
2015-09-03T03:23:25Z pyon: rme: I made a function `foo` that itself returns lambdas. So the result of evaluating `(foo x y)` itself doesn't make much sense in the value namespace.
2015-09-03T03:23:44Z Bike: +
2015-09-03T03:23:48Z Bike: *well, it might
2015-09-03T03:23:53Z Bike: you can funcall, after all
2015-09-03T03:24:15Z Xach: emaczen: you can't edit them, but you can add to them. (annotate is the verb used on the site)
2015-09-03T03:24:34Z emaczen: ahh okay I see that now.
2015-09-03T03:24:49Z loke: Xach: Why is it that bordeaux-threads on QL is over a year (or two?) old?
2015-09-03T03:24:55Z Xach: pyon: sure it does. you could pass it as a value, or funcall it, or apply it, etc.
2015-09-03T03:25:34Z Xach: loke: I don't know. Has there been a new release recently?
2015-09-03T03:26:16Z loke: Xach: I don't know. However, when I get the latest source CONDITION-WAIT takes a timeout parameter. This was added over a year ago to the repository version, but it isn't in the QL version.
2015-09-03T03:26:46Z Xach: loke: Ok. well, i am using the latest release.
2015-09-03T03:26:56Z Xach: loke: That seems to be from april of 2013.
2015-09-03T03:27:16Z loke: "Release" meaning something different from the latest repository version?
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2015-09-03T03:31:43Z pyon: Anyway, on an unrelated matter, is there an abbreviation for `(and (stringp x) (equal (length x) 0))`?
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2015-09-03T03:32:21Z pjb: jason_m: see com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.character.
2015-09-03T03:32:27Z loke: pyon: (equal "" x)
2015-09-03T03:32:35Z pyon: Oh, of course, dumb em.
2015-09-03T03:32:37Z pyon: me*
2015-09-03T03:32:54Z Xach: (and (stringp x) (zerop (length x))) ; probably not the abbreviation in mind
2015-09-03T03:33:10Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BCY/1 -- here is an annotation to my paste
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2015-09-03T03:47:32Z emaczen: Has anyone used (:class class-name) in the :defsystem-depends-on list of a defsystem form? I think this is related, or what I am looking for.
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2015-09-03T03:50:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-03T03:50:51Z emaczen: morning beach
2015-09-03T03:51:29Z clintm: Package A is loaded by and (:use)'d by Package B.  A defines macros that use functions defined in B.  When they're expanded in B, the functions are qualified to A.  Am I just toying with basic bad practice, or is it possible to have the functions not qualify to the package that the macro is in/
2015-09-03T03:51:51Z pjb: jasom: notice that it's an explicit strategy of the FSF, to promote the freedom of users of software (free software), to develop _useful_ libraries (and possibly _better_ than the competition) and to release them under the GPL.
2015-09-03T03:52:13Z beach: clintm: You are confused.
2015-09-03T03:52:31Z beach: clintm: Names are attached to packages when the code is read by READ, not when macros are expanded.
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2015-09-03T03:53:11Z clintm: beach: Sounds like I was ignorant - I wasn't sure when it was, but it wasn't going to stop me from trying :)
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2015-09-03T03:57:12Z emaczen: beach: have you ever used the :defsystem-depends-on list in a defsystem form to load a commonly used class definition (to be used as a component file-type in the :components list) from another system?
2015-09-03T03:57:40Z pjb: pyon: notice that you definitely want (equal "" x) and not (string= "" x) since the later would accept symbols such as :|| or '||.
2015-09-03T03:58:12Z beach: emaczen: I don't think so, no.
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2015-09-03T03:58:33Z clintm: beach: I want to make sure I'm understanding that right.  It's read that turns (func) into (*PACKAGE*:func) in a macro?
2015-09-03T03:59:19Z pjb: clintm: indeed, it looks like you want to packages using one another.  You cannot do that with declarative forms such as defpackage.  But you could import symbols or even call use-package at "run-time".
2015-09-03T03:59:21Z emaczen: beach: ahhh, I'll keep re-reading the manual, hoping to find something...
2015-09-03T04:00:19Z clintm: pjb: That's exactly what I want.  I  had forgotten about use-package
2015-09-03T04:00:23Z pjb: clintm: but this circularly is a sure sign that your modularization is bad. You'd be better off by moving the functions used or referenced by the macros, in the same package as the macros (or a third package that would be used by both).
2015-09-03T04:00:24Z beach: clintm: Correct.  And it has nothing to do with macros.  It does that for every symbol it sees.
2015-09-03T04:01:06Z clintm: You guys are awesome.  Yea, I think it's pretty clear I need to rethink my approach.  Thanks for the information :)
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2015-09-03T04:01:20Z pjb: clintm: eg. sometimes, you would define a package that would export only symbols naming generic functions.  (with no method implemented in that package).
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2015-09-03T04:19:35Z emaczen`: For loading custom component-file-types, the ASDF manual says that component type names will be lookked up first in the current package and if not found, the asdf package. What about using a custom package?
2015-09-03T04:20:08Z Xach: emaczen`: you could make a package for the system file that :use's your custom package.
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2015-09-03T04:22:48Z emaczen`: Xach: I'll give that a try.
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2015-09-03T04:24:34Z emaczen`: Xach: If I understand correctly, it still gives me the same "don't recognize component type :ps-file."
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2015-09-03T04:24:52Z Xach: emaczen`: can you add the system file contents to your paste?
2015-09-03T04:25:00Z emaczen`: Wouldn't the components list be evaluated before the package?
2015-09-03T04:25:08Z Xach: emaczen`: no.
2015-09-03T04:25:10Z emaczen`: before the "package.lisp" file
2015-09-03T04:25:23Z Xach: emaczen`: no, you put the package definition in my-great-system.asd
2015-09-03T04:26:01Z Xach: e.g. (defpackage my-great-system-package (:use cl asdf my-asdf-extension)) (in-package my-great-system-package) (defsystem ...)
2015-09-03T04:26:28Z Xach: i am sorry in advance if this does not help
2015-09-03T04:27:08Z emaczen`: Xach: I appreciate the help, it is worth trying and will get me at least one step closer.
2015-09-03T04:28:11Z Xach: emaczen`: so in your case it would be (defpackage geometry-ui-system (:use cl asdf my-asdf-utils)) (in-package geometry-ui-system) ...
2015-09-03T04:28:31Z Xach: emaczen`: making sure that ps-file is external in my-asdf-utils
2015-09-03T04:29:54Z emaczen`: Xach: This makes sense to me... I hope it works.
2015-09-03T04:30:18Z PuercoPop: emaczen`: check prove for similar code: https://github.com/fukamachi/prove/blob/master/src/asdf.lisp it imports its custom component to adsf at the end
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2015-09-03T04:32:04Z emaczen`: PuercoPop: Will do...
2015-09-03T04:32:22Z Xach: that does not strike me as a great strategy if avoiding conflicts is a priority
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2015-09-03T04:37:17Z emaczen`: Xach: It tells me that "my-asdf-utils" does not designate any package -- it is defined like any one of my other packages
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2015-09-03T04:37:45Z emaczen`: However, when does my-asdf-utils get loaded?
2015-09-03T04:41:36Z emaczen`: Or where does ":use" look for packages?
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2015-09-03T04:44:16Z Xach: oh, right
2015-09-03T04:44:24Z Xach: it gets loaded by the :defsystem-depends-on. too late.
2015-09-03T04:44:50Z Xach should have quit at "i don't know" much earlier
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2015-09-03T04:49:56Z akkad: is there a way to determine at runtime if you are interpreted or compiled?
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2015-09-03T04:50:49Z emaczen`: Thanks Xach. Someone is bound to know, this is the same problem as the c-source-file and java-source-file component-types that are just provided by default by ASDF
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2015-09-03T05:06:25Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for ehu: I've removed them to deduplicate the code - it's already in each "load.lsp" file (in-package …) that is
2015-09-03T05:06:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ehu when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-03T05:06:54Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for ehu: so basically it should be easier to put different sets in different packages now if we'll want to
2015-09-03T05:06:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ehu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-03T05:07:33Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for ehu: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/commit/9858efa49cafa1c4e1026364d1744a3503063185#note_59
2015-09-03T05:07:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ehu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-03T06:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: With lquery, how do I get the text of an element if it's in a cdata node?
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2015-09-03T06:15:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: (text) just returns ""
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2015-09-03T06:17:59Z Shinmera: Should work. You're probably not selecting the right element.
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2015-09-03T06:20:35Z Shinmera: Hmm. It works if the element is accessed directly, but not if it's a descendant.
2015-09-03T06:21:33Z Shinmera: Yeah, a bug in Plump. TEXT only considers TEXT-NODES, rather than TEXTUAL-NODES.
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2015-09-03T06:23:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: How can I work around it?
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2015-09-03T06:27:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. how would I patch it to work correctly?)
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2015-09-03T06:30:17Z Shinmera: By cloning Plump and lQuery from git until the next Quicklisp release.
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2015-09-03T06:31:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
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2015-09-03T06:32:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Will quicklisp find it correctly if I put it in quicklisp/local-projects?
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2015-09-03T06:33:37Z Shinmera: Yes
2015-09-03T06:33:52Z Shinmera: Unless it's nested deeper than one level, in which case a ql:register-local-projects is necessary.
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2015-09-03T06:34:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, thanks for the help. Everything works now.
2015-09-03T06:35:07Z Shinmera: Great!
2015-09-03T06:35:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another question I had: is there a lquery form for conditionals?
2015-09-03T06:36:08Z Shinmera: In what way?
2015-09-03T06:36:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like (lquery:$ (if (child "foo") (text) (child "bar")))
2015-09-03T06:36:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: it would return the text of <foo> if present, otherwise it would return the child <bar>
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2015-09-03T06:37:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: The use case is I'm parsing RSS feeds, and there are several different ways the content can be stored in them
2015-09-03T06:37:32Z Shinmera: You can use MAP for that, I guess.
2015-09-03T06:38:05Z Shinmera: It'll be less than concise though.
2015-09-03T06:38:46Z Shinmera: I'll keep it in mind for additions however, seems rather useful.
2015-09-03T06:39:16Z Shinmera: Hopefully I'll get to it before the next QL release.
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2015-09-03T06:41:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: That would be helpful.
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2015-09-03T06:42:00Z Shinmera: You could try to do your own with lquery:define-lquery-macro
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2015-09-03T06:44:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'll look into that, I have run into a couple patterns that could probably benefit from macros
2015-09-03T06:46:40Z Shinmera: for most things a function will suffice
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2015-09-03T06:47:59Z Shinmera: Hmm, might be neat to have something like a subroutine definition macro as well that just packages a sequence of lquery instructions into one function.
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2015-09-03T06:49:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can't seem to select a child tag with an xml namespace
2015-09-03T06:50:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. something like <content:encoded>)
2015-09-03T06:50:29Z Shinmera: Right. The colon is read as a CSS pseudo selector.
2015-09-03T06:51:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Didn't think of that
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2015-09-03T06:51:18Z Shinmera: I'll add it as a bug though.
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2015-09-03T06:54:35Z loke: Anyone know who is the maintainer of CLOSURE-HTML?
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2015-09-03T06:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd suggest using this "content\:encoded" to select such elements.
2015-09-03T06:55:25Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: It'll have to be at least "content\\:encoded".
2015-09-03T06:56:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, forgot to double the backslash
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2015-09-03T06:59:02Z Shinmera: It's also not a good idea because the backslash itself is allowed in names as well.
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2015-09-03T07:02:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe a tag-name function?
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2015-09-03T07:02:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Without arguments, it'd return the tag names, with them it'd filter
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2015-09-03T07:13:08Z Shinmera: I think I'll go with namespace::name as a selector instead.
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2015-09-03T07:14:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, here's an implementation of my suggestion
2015-09-03T07:14:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8cd442e4d8bbbf1485bd
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2015-09-03T07:20:14Z knobo-net: wondering if optima can match based on an argument like the foo here: (defun (foo bar) (match bar ((property :key foo) bar)
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2015-09-03T07:20:22Z Shinmera: The CLSS fix is in.
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2015-09-03T07:20:32Z Shinmera: I'll add your function lQuery if you want
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2015-09-03T07:21:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't mind one way or the other.
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2015-09-03T07:45:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: In LASS, is there a way to reference the parent selector in a sub list?
2015-09-03T07:45:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I'm thinking of the way you can write &:hover in Sass)
2015-09-03T07:46:11Z Shinmera: There is not at this point, no
2015-09-03T07:46:41Z Shinmera: It is something that has bothered me for a while though, I just don't have the time to implement it right now.
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2015-09-03T08:00:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, here's what I've been working on. It basically doesn't have any features besides the basic design, at this point
2015-09-03T08:00:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://upcfiwsyyy.localtunnel.me/
2015-09-03T08:00:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm off to bed
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2015-09-03T09:10:36Z easye: Is there some Quicklisp library that defines a CDR-ASSOC?
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2015-09-03T09:12:24Z loke: easye: what do you mean?
2015-09-03T09:12:46Z easye: SERAPEUM seems to have it.
2015-09-03T09:13:18Z easye: CDR-ASSOC:  return the setf-able place referenced by the CDR of an ASSOC value.
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2015-09-03T09:17:00Z easye: "ASSOC list"
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2015-09-03T10:20:50Z loke: easye: Why do you need an existing version? Just (defun cdr-assoc (k l) (cdr (assoc k l))) seems to do what you want?
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2015-09-03T10:24:15Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2015-09-03T10:27:20Z loke: hello kami
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2015-09-03T10:58:51Z Shinmera: loke: Why would you want it at all. It only saves a pair of parens.
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2015-09-03T11:02:13Z loke: Shinmera: I don't know. It was easye that asked for it.
2015-09-03T11:02:27Z Shinmera: Unless the original cdr-assoc macro doubles by also inserting a pair if it doesn't exist yet.
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2015-09-03T11:02:47Z loke: I have my own version of but it's a bit more clever. It raises an error if the key is missing.
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2015-09-03T13:16:09Z kruhft: Morning
2015-09-03T13:16:29Z kami: Hi kruhft
2015-09-03T13:19:03Z kami: Is there a function in one of the libs to change the modification time of a file which works on different implementations on Linux?
2015-09-03T13:19:35Z kruhft: Maybe in cl-fad?
2015-09-03T13:19:50Z kruhft: not sure, but that would be a good place to look
2015-09-03T13:20:50Z kami: kruhft: thanks. It doesn't seem so.
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2015-09-03T13:22:10Z kruhft: I wrote a command line compiler for Parenscript called Sigil: https://www.npmjs.com/package/sigil-cli
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2015-09-03T13:22:45Z kruhft: I'm totally into webdev now and Parenscript makes it a bit more awesome :)
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2015-09-03T13:24:46Z eudoxia: nice
2015-09-03T13:24:51Z eudoxia: this is pretty useful
2015-09-03T13:25:58Z kruhft: Yes, makes it a lot easier to use.
2015-09-03T13:27:38Z kruhft: Also, a CSS generation language called Autograph that lets you use CL functions and variables: https://www.npmjs.com/package/autograph-cli
2015-09-03T13:27:47Z kruhft: It's just getting started though, but it's working.
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2015-09-03T13:28:23Z kruhft: Haven't had much of a chance to use it yet to see how the features work together, but the basic syntax is there.
2015-09-03T13:28:44Z Shinmera: Have you seen LASS?
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2015-09-03T13:31:38Z kruhft: Yes, I took a look at it.
2015-09-03T13:31:51Z kruhft: I wanted to take a crack at writing my own.
2015-09-03T13:32:23Z Shinmera: Alright. I was wondering if you had reasons beyond that for rolling your own.
2015-09-03T13:32:48Z kruhft: I looked at all the ones available and didn't like the syntax of any of them.
2015-09-03T13:32:56Z kruhft: Mine is a bit more minimal I think.
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2015-09-03T13:35:06Z kruhft: https://github.com/burtonsamograd/autograph/blob/master/example.ag
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2015-09-03T15:32:14Z loz: sbcl.org looks down
2015-09-03T15:32:30Z Shinmera: It is known.
2015-09-03T15:32:36Z H4ns: loz: http://www.sbcl.org/
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2015-09-03T15:34:00Z Xach: I am digging a bit
2015-09-03T15:34:24Z loz: ok)
2015-09-03T15:34:25Z Xach: Xof thinks kmr might be able to fix. If he can't, maybe he knows who can.
2015-09-03T15:34:41Z Xach has sent Emails to Important and Skilled People
2015-09-03T15:36:15Z Xof: thanks, Xach
2015-09-03T15:36:31Z pinterface1 is reminded of that time nobody was really in charge of the cliki domain.
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2015-09-03T15:36:55Z Xach: *I* was in charge!
2015-09-03T15:37:06Z Xach: through no fault of my own :~(
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2015-09-03T15:41:40Z pinterface: Well, that's what happens when you head the lisp illuminati.  You end up in charge of stuff.
2015-09-03T15:43:30Z Xach: i'm not even the one from bielefeld :(
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2015-09-03T15:49:30Z pinterface: That's because you're smart, and have a better cover story than a place that doesn't exist.
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2015-09-03T16:10:41Z emaczen: What is the function that will give me the component list of a system? I haven't found anything with apropos or the manual.
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2015-09-03T16:11:54Z emaczen: Hah, just got it finally -- I was looking for "component-children"
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2015-09-03T16:13:51Z oGMo: tab in a repl is usually easier than documentation
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2015-09-03T16:58:54Z jasom: kruhft: out of curiousity, what do you use sigil-cli for?  I use asdf for compiling my parenscript
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2015-09-03T17:17:17Z Xof: Xach: the other person it might have been was nikodemus
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2015-09-03T17:26:37Z jlarocco: fwiw, http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/index.html is up, just not http://sbcl.org
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2015-09-03T17:35:49Z Shinmera: Xach: A long while back there was a brief discussion about a "universal configuration" library. What exactly would that entail from your perspective?
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2015-09-03T17:40:46Z jasom: scymtym: okay, this is *maddening* the haskell yaml tests claim that s-indent(-1) should pass on an empty-string, but s-indent<=(-1) shouldn't; WTF!
2015-09-03T17:41:48Z scymtym: jasom: i haven't looked at this in a while. did you check whether they updated things in the meantime?
2015-09-03T17:41:50Z jasom: that is in direct contradiction of the YAML spec too, so I'm going to ignore it
2015-09-03T17:42:33Z jasom: scymtym: I didn't, but it's in agreement with their production on the website.  I can't find the source repository for the haskell yaml implementation
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2015-09-03T17:43:15Z scymtym: jasom: let me check whether i still have the URL
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2015-09-03T17:44:34Z jasom: The 0.9.2 release tarball has the tests as the same
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2015-09-03T17:46:09Z scymtym: i was going to say https://hackage.haskell.org/package/YamlReference-0.9.3/src/, so yes
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2015-09-03T17:57:23Z Xach: Shinmera: a very simple api, small codebase with few if any dependencies (but perhaps with the ability to plug in more flexible backends). switching data sets easily (e.g. making it easy to have a "production" vs "development" set of data without rewriting any code)...um...other things...
2015-09-03T17:58:02Z Shinmera: Xach: I'm not sure what you mean by a "data set". Can you elaborate on that?
2015-09-03T17:58:23Z jasom: Xach: what features would it have other than a bunch of DEFVARs followed by a LOAD?
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2015-09-03T17:58:41Z Xach: Shinmera: (configuration-value "foo") answer varies depending on some context
2015-09-03T17:58:47Z jasom: (this is what I use for configuration currently)
2015-09-03T17:58:50Z Shinmera: What kind of interface are you expecting? Something like "(open 'some-config-name) (setf (field foo bar baz) "bla") (field foo bar baz)"?
2015-09-03T17:59:09Z Xach: jasom: (setf (configuration-value "foo") "bar") persists
2015-09-03T17:59:15Z jasom: ah
2015-09-03T17:59:16Z Xach: that's about it, i guess
2015-09-03T17:59:37Z Shinmera: Xach: should it automatically determine where to put the storage or should that be up to the user?
2015-09-03T18:00:31Z Xach: Shinmera: warning, not-fully-formed thoughts ahead. i never wrote anything, so i didn't hit any of the problems that give you useful experience when writing...
2015-09-03T18:00:44Z Shinmera: The reason I'm asking these questions is that I want to write a replacement for Universal-Config and would like to address these concerns as well.
2015-09-03T18:00:46Z Xach: I think it could have a useful default behavior for storage
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2015-09-03T18:01:01Z Shinmera: Xach: Sure, just give me what you want to have and I'll figure it out.
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2015-09-03T18:01:43Z jasom: so like cl-store and a thin-wrapper around a hash-table would do all of this
2015-09-03T18:01:51Z Xach: In other words, you can use it without thinking about it, but if you want to think about it, you can. So not SO.
2015-09-03T18:01:51Z Shinmera: Can you give me a specific use-case where you would find this sort of thing useful?
2015-09-03T18:02:23Z Xach: Shinmera: i had a few use-cases in mind the last time it was discussed, i can only remember one of them, though.
2015-09-03T18:02:29Z Xach: or maybe two
2015-09-03T18:02:40Z Shinmera: I can't remember any, unfortunately.
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2015-09-03T18:03:01Z dim: Shinmera: I have bits atop pyconfig-parser (.ini support) at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/config.lisp and other places
2015-09-03T18:03:01Z jasom: If cl-store is too big a dependency, then you could just use an alist and read/print and restrict the values to loadable forms
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2015-09-03T18:03:16Z Xach: i have some software that uses an email address. I'd like to have (defvar *send-reports-to* (config-value "my-project/report-email")) or something in the code.
2015-09-03T18:03:35Z dim: with (config-value "name") and (setf (config-value "name") "value") that are kept in-sync with *name* variables
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2015-09-03T18:04:05Z Xach: This is pretty static. I want to set it once and never think about it on a particular system again.
2015-09-03T18:04:13Z Shinmera: jasom: dim: Thanks for the hints, but I'm not looking for an implementation. I'm only looking for use-cases.
2015-09-03T18:04:17Z Xach: The other thing is e.g. credentials for S3 activity.
2015-09-03T18:04:42Z dim: Shinmera: well pgcharts is a use case, pginstall has about the same use case too, and other software I am working on also share the same use case
2015-09-03T18:04:43Z Xach: or a storing session data for apis
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2015-09-03T18:04:51Z Shinmera: dim: Right.
2015-09-03T18:05:27Z Shinmera: Xach: A mechanism for defaults should be available too, then.
2015-09-03T18:05:37Z dim: user (sysadmin) friendly configuration, baked in a file, that you can parse to feed your *setup-variables* and that you can overwrite from the current image memory too (so that as a developper, write the default setup is (save-config) in the REPL)
2015-09-03T18:05:38Z Xach: Shinmera: yes
2015-09-03T18:06:02Z dim: also I have ./binary config and ./binary get name and ./binary set name value usually
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2015-09-03T18:06:24Z dim: and when using --options at the CLI, I include --ini that will save a config file with the current settings values
2015-09-03T18:06:29Z Shinmera: Xach: Is the format of the configuration of any concern to you?
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2015-09-03T18:06:40Z Shinmera: dim: I see.
2015-09-03T18:06:52Z dim: ./binary --name=value --other=thing --ini -> name and other have the value you expect in the configuration file
2015-09-03T18:06:59Z rme: This sounds sort of like NSUserDefaults (cf. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/Foundation/Classes/NSUserDefaults_Class/)
2015-09-03T18:07:12Z Shinmera: Xach: *format of the configuration file
2015-09-03T18:07:16Z Xach: Shinmera: this is speculation, but I think an effort like this can be more popular if the api is very very simple, the code is really small, and the default storage is simple enough to be manipulated "by hand" (or by program)
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2015-09-03T18:07:23Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp#L118 and following
2015-09-03T18:07:30Z Shinmera: Xach: I definitely agree with that.
2015-09-03T18:07:39Z eudoxia: well, you can always use multiple transports
2015-09-03T18:07:54Z eudoxia: e.g. (save-config :transport {:json|:sexp|:xml})
2015-09-03T18:08:02Z Shinmera: eudoxia: different formats have different capabilities. It makes things very messy.
2015-09-03T18:08:07Z eudoxia: of course
2015-09-03T18:08:10Z Xach: Shinmera: i worry about the potential for people thinking "oh, this is a great idea, but it gets my case just slightly wrong, so i'll write a complete system that does everything, except MY way"
2015-09-03T18:08:16Z Shinmera: Universal-Config tried to solve that. I can't stand it anymore.
2015-09-03T18:08:20Z dim: Xach: that's why I'm using .ini files and py-configparser from QL
2015-09-03T18:08:35Z Shinmera: Xach: Right.
2015-09-03T18:08:47Z dim: I've been wondering about issuing a lib on-top of configparser with my usual bits for CLI processing and configuration management
2015-09-03T18:08:59Z jasom: Xach: I've not felt a need for (setf (configuration-value "foo")) in code, though I see the attraction.  Everything you mention, I store in specials (though I actually use defparameter, since I want to revert to the default if the config file doesn't specify a value)
2015-09-03T18:09:01Z Xach: dim: i like that idea, except i want setf
2015-09-03T18:09:08Z Xach: jasom: oh, i don't want it in code, i want it in the repl.
2015-09-03T18:09:11Z dim: because it's getting boring to sync the 4 or 5 places I'm doing that
2015-09-03T18:09:22Z dim: Xach: as in (define-command (("set") (key &optional val)) "edit configuration variables" (if val (setf (config-value key) val) (print-config-value key)))?
2015-09-03T18:09:29Z dim: that's what I have now in terms of API
2015-09-03T18:09:50Z Shinmera: My own personal use cases are: User credential/setting storage for applications, a universal storage for Colleen modules, and a server configuration for Radiance.
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2015-09-03T18:10:25Z dim: do you really need your user credential to be manipulated outside your program?
2015-09-03T18:10:40Z dim: I think your use case is very different from the one I am exposing here
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2015-09-03T18:11:13Z Shinmera: It doesn't need to be, but it can't hurt either.
2015-09-03T18:11:15Z jasom: Xach: if I'm in the REPL, then I'm also in emacs, so I just edit the file :)
2015-09-03T18:11:42Z jasom: but I do see how that would be nice if you had a ton of configuation parameters
2015-09-03T18:11:55Z Shinmera: dim: Your CLI stuff is just a different way of accessing the same functions from what I can tell.
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2015-09-03T18:12:15Z Shinmera: Whether you use the CLI or the REPL or whatever the hell seems rather orthogonal to the core concern of this library.
2015-09-03T18:12:25Z dim: (setf (config-value "foo") "value") will sync *foo* so that it's now "value", but (setf *foo* "value") is not syncing with the configuration file, I don't know if that's what you'd want Xach
2015-09-03T18:13:16Z dim: Shinmera: exactly, just saying it's another way to offer support for the users, ala git, because some users (sysadmin in particular) prefer to type commands rather than open files and try to remember the syntax they should follow
2015-09-03T18:13:18Z Shinmera: Xach: Do you have any need for validation/constraint mechanisms?
2015-09-03T18:13:20Z jasom: you could use a symbol-macro to make that work though
2015-09-03T18:13:25Z dim: they don't have s-exps all the way
2015-09-03T18:13:27Z Xach: Shinmera: i don't think so.
2015-09-03T18:13:37Z dim: I'm still baffled Unix won against the Lisp Machines, but well.
2015-09-03T18:14:05Z Shinmera: dim: Right. It's definitely a good idea, but I think it should be a separate thing, rather than integrated into the core library.
2015-09-03T18:14:06Z Xach: sbcl.org, by the way, belongs to Kevin Rosenberg. He had to update more than 50 domains with his b9.com change and sbcl.org slipped through the cracks. He is fixing it within a day.
2015-09-03T18:14:10Z jasom: dim: I'm not at all baffled reading the history of the lisp machines, and then considering how much easier it was to get unix to run on a late 80s PC.
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2015-09-03T18:15:02Z dim: Shinmera: that's also why my bits didn't make it to a specific lib yet, and when they do, they might be dim-utils or such
2015-09-03T18:15:22Z dim: Xach: thanks for looking into that
2015-09-03T18:15:26Z Shinmera: Xach: dim: jasom: Thanks for all the input. I think I know what to think about now.
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2015-09-03T18:15:58Z dim: jasom: mmm, I'm more thinking in terms of user experience one it's running, and about Naggum's rant
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2015-09-03T18:16:29Z jasom: dim: If, in 1991 you could have run Genera on a 386 with a hard-drive and 2MB of ram, and paid less than $100 in software to do so, then perhaps lisp machines would have had a chance
2015-09-03T18:17:08Z dim: could well be
2015-09-03T18:17:18Z dim: but history only goes forward, I've been told ;-)
2015-09-03T18:17:33Z Shinmera: It also repeats, so
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2015-09-03T18:18:39Z jasom: MINIX 1.0 ran on an IBM AT, and was $70
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2015-09-03T18:19:31Z jasom: Though I think students experience with time-shared commercial unixes at colleges had an impact on adoption too
2015-09-03T18:19:54Z White_Flame: the Unixes were all about multi-user and permissions, while the Lisp ones were geared for a single-person interactive environment (though you could connect in as well)
2015-09-03T18:20:02Z rme: I really think it's true that in the computer business we do not stand on each other's shoulders, we stand on each other's toes.  I don't believe that we are good at learning from past systems.
2015-09-03T18:20:03Z White_Flame: pretty sure that was a big difference
2015-09-03T18:20:22Z White_Flame: I don't know if the Lisp machines ever hit any server marketshare
2015-09-03T18:21:06Z rme: So, while there's no escape from the attack of the killer micros, I think we generally consider lispms (and other "failed" systems from the past) as losers, and therefore nothing worth learning from.
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2015-09-03T18:22:03Z White_Flame: there's a lot of hubris against the past in general
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2015-09-03T18:22:10Z White_Flame: regardless of success
2015-09-03T18:22:13Z Xach: and the unfamiliar
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2015-09-03T18:22:19Z White_Flame: look at how much mainframe tech is continually rediscovered
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2015-09-03T18:22:26Z White_Flame: and that was certainly not a failed ecosystem
2015-09-03T18:22:54Z White_Flame: I think there's a certain level of computing that is accessible, that people rediscover every generation
2015-09-03T18:22:59Z White_Flame: and hit a wall, beyond which nobody goes
2015-09-03T18:23:08Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BDG. -- can someone help me interpret this "circular dependency" error? I've written out my systems on paper and cannot find a cycle...
2015-09-03T18:23:09Z White_Flame: of the real problems of software development and computer use
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2015-09-03T18:23:54Z eudoxia: yey sbcl.org is back
2015-09-03T18:24:14Z Xach: emaczen: can you paste the system file too?
2015-09-03T18:24:30Z Xach: yay
2015-09-03T18:25:05Z emaczen: Xach: which asd file? "web-utils"?
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2015-09-03T18:25:20Z Xach: emaczen: how many are there? paste them all
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2015-09-03T18:26:01Z emaczen: There are several... give me a second
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2015-09-03T18:29:06Z emaczen: Is the "depends-on" a directed edge?
2015-09-03T18:29:46Z Xach: yes
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2015-09-03T18:31:54Z emaczen: Wait, the first time I evaluate (asdf:load-system ...) everything works fine. If I try it again, then I get the circular dependency error.
2015-09-03T18:31:59Z emaczen: ^^ What does that mean?
2015-09-03T18:32:16Z Xach: I don't know. Paste the files!
2015-09-03T18:32:46Z emaczen: Hah alright, there are quite a bit of them...
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2015-09-03T18:44:09Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BDG/1 -- ok I've even drawn it on paper twice now...
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2015-09-03T18:44:49Z emaczen: Either something weird is going on (package name mangling maybe?) or I am failing to understand some piece correctly.
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2015-09-03T18:46:15Z Shinmera: Why are you bothering with manually specifying dependencies on your file components instead of just using `:serial T`?
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2015-09-03T18:47:01Z emaczen: Shinmera: Heh, yeah I don't do that too often anymore -- I'll fix that.
2015-09-03T18:47:22Z emaczen: Shinmera: Some of these *-utils packages are from right when I was just starting with CL
2015-09-03T18:47:40Z Malice: Hey guys. Do you know of any Common Lisp web browser that isn't ancient? May be in development. I know about closure, but it's old and unsupported.
2015-09-03T18:47:51Z Shinmera: There isn't one.
2015-09-03T18:48:08Z Shinmera: There are projects for bindings to webkit and such though.
2015-09-03T18:48:09Z emaczen: Shinmera: Isn't :serial T the default?
2015-09-03T18:48:18Z Shinmera: I think AeroNotix was working on that, unless my brain is playing tricks on me again.
2015-09-03T18:48:28Z Shinmera: emaczen: It isn't.
2015-09-03T18:48:43Z eudoxia: emaczen: it should be!
2015-09-03T18:49:15Z eudoxia: Malice: i was thinking about building a browser in Ceramic: http://ceramic.github.io/
2015-09-03T18:49:17Z emaczen: :serial t goes right above the :components list right?
2015-09-03T18:49:35Z Shinmera: Doesn't matter where it goes.
2015-09-03T18:49:42Z eudoxia: i guess the hard part would be hooking into requests and what not to record history and such
2015-09-03T18:49:43Z Shinmera: As long as it's in the system form.
2015-09-03T18:49:53Z Shinmera: And not in the components or anywhere else.
2015-09-03T18:52:48Z jasom: eudoxia: that would be interesting; your GUI is served up from an http server that connects to http remotes
2015-09-03T18:53:01Z eudoxia: more or less yeah
2015-09-03T18:53:09Z jasom: eudoxia: getting the javascript same-origin stuff right might be hard
2015-09-03T18:53:13Z eudoxia: there would be a CL server listening to HTTP requests from the guy
2015-09-03T18:53:25Z jasom: since as far as electron is concerned, it all comes from the same place
2015-09-03T18:53:27Z eudoxia: jasom: actually Electron has a thing that's built precisely for this
2015-09-03T18:53:35Z eudoxia: jasom: https://github.com/atom/electron/blob/master/docs/api/web-view-tag.md
2015-09-03T18:54:21Z jasom: oh, I didn't know electron had a web-view.  Then you are just lisp chrome around a foreign web-view, right?
2015-09-03T18:54:40Z emaczen: Ok, after removing all the :depends-on in the components list and adding :serial t to each asd file, if I load the system twice I still get a circular dependency error...
2015-09-03T18:54:46Z eudoxia: jasom: what
2015-09-03T18:55:10Z eudoxia: jasom: the browser "GUI" would basically be a localhost webapp that has <webview> tags inside it to show the content of foreign websites
2015-09-03T18:55:20Z Shinmera: emaczen: My next guess is that one of your source files modifies the systems somehow.
2015-09-03T18:55:24Z eudoxia: outside those <webview> tags there would be the, well, the browser GUI, ie the tabbar and buttons
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2015-09-03T18:55:44Z jasom: eudoxia: right the "chrome" (or is that term not used anymore?)
2015-09-03T18:56:01Z scymtym: jasom: it is still used
2015-09-03T18:56:02Z eudoxia: jasom: right
2015-09-03T18:56:27Z eudoxia: jasom: i think the only thing you couldn't do (easily) would be proxying the requests through the Lisp web server
2015-09-03T18:56:43Z jasom: does the electron webview allow introspection into the page that is rendered?
2015-09-03T18:56:49Z eudoxia: you'd want to do this, e.g. for a filter
2015-09-03T18:56:55Z eudoxia: yes
2015-09-03T18:57:25Z jasom: so you could do some post-processing, but couldn't filter.
2015-09-03T18:58:07Z jasom: You could filter insecure content by routing through a sock proxy running on the lisp web backend, but that doesn't solve TLS content
2015-09-03T18:58:43Z eudoxia: <webview> doesn't expose the actual requests-handling stuff, so no filtering, i think
2015-09-03T18:58:48Z eudoxia: oh well, not really a huge problem
2015-09-03T19:01:00Z emaczen: Shinmera: What is the difference between (require :system-name) and (asdf:load-system :system-name)
2015-09-03T19:01:22Z emaczen: I have been using require, but it looks like (asdf:load-system ...) always tries to reload, or only reloads changes?
2015-09-03T19:01:37Z Shinmera: One is deprecated, the other is an ASDF call.
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2015-09-03T19:02:14Z White_Flame: REQUIRE is part of the spec, and leaves it up to the implementation as to how to find things.  Most defer to ASDF, but it's not necessarily the accepted way to load ASDF systems
2015-09-03T19:02:49Z Shinmera: REQUIRE is also deprecated by the spec.
2015-09-03T19:02:56Z emaczen: what spec?
2015-09-03T19:03:00Z White_Flame: yep, and that's why
2015-09-03T19:03:00Z Shinmera: The only spec.
2015-09-03T19:03:06Z White_Flame: (well, part of why)
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2015-09-03T19:03:32Z jackdaniel: does it load to anyone? https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/156 (or it's just me)
2015-09-03T19:03:58Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: E500 for me
2015-09-03T19:04:03Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-03T19:05:37Z AeroNotix: Malice: I have something called LispKit which is based on WebKit. Works well. Requires a lot more dev to be considered worthy of replacing Chromium or whatever.
2015-09-03T19:06:29Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: are you still working on it? Last I heard of it was... sometime around a year ago if I recall.
2015-09-03T19:09:04Z sebboh: I've crossed some sort of inflection point with lisp, specifically common lisp. I am sitting down and just writing defuns that do things, my toy programs become functional (read: working) quickly.  It took so long to get here that I think I can attribute it largely to the sea change brought around by all those high quality blogs, quicklisp, and github...  Not to mention similar things happening in emacs-land: blogs, the wiki, elpa et
2015-09-03T19:09:04Z sebboh: al, and github... I mean, surely some of the change was internal, too. ;)
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2015-09-03T19:09:37Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: I have a lot of work at the minute.
2015-09-03T19:09:46Z AeroNotix: so no, unfortunately no. But I will get back to it eventually.
2015-09-03T19:10:14Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: All in due time :)
2015-09-03T19:10:19Z sebboh: But definitely, folks here deserve some credit.  Thank you.  Oh, also the lisp-koans project published by uncle G.  That was really influential.
2015-09-03T19:10:31Z White_Flame: AeroNotix:  what's it's current status?  I'm interested in such things
2015-09-03T19:11:01Z Shinmera: sebboh: It's always nice to hear when people are having a good time with lisp.
2015-09-03T19:12:05Z Shinmera: Xach: I just realised that for one of my use cases I need the storage to be concurrency-safe, but that would require a dependency. I'll see if I can somehow detach that part as a contrib to keep the core dependency-free.
2015-09-03T19:12:13Z sebboh: Shinmera: now when I need to do something in java, I feel hamstring'd.
2015-09-03T19:12:22Z emaczen: Thanks guys, I don't appear to have this circular dependency problem anymore... However, I can't seem to get my custom "perform" method to run anymore with "asdf:load-system"
2015-09-03T19:12:24Z Shinmera: sebboh: Oh I know that all too well, haha.
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2015-09-03T19:14:01Z White_Flame: sebboh: Java will string you up by its boilerplate and let you sit to cook
2015-09-03T19:15:12Z White_Flame: I've had a few successes in Java, though, for projects that were 100% compatibile with OO design
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2015-09-03T19:18:44Z AeroNotix: White_Flame: it works as a browser, you can configure it purely in CL.
2015-09-03T19:18:50Z AeroNotix: Works quite well.
2015-09-03T19:18:58Z AeroNotix: but it's not really super featureful
2015-09-03T19:19:09Z White_Flame: ok, I'm basically looking for a HTML/JS based UI for Lisp, not really interested in the web browsing aspect
2015-09-03T19:19:50Z sebboh: White_Flame: well I have good tooling so boiler plate doesn't bother me.  But, when I look at a task and think "ok, I have a function for that", then lately I end up realizing "no, I have a method for that, I can't use it HERE..." and then I feel like I'm stuck. :)  Just now in CL I took a defun that I wrote for debugging/dev purposes (it walks across the arguments I pass it and prints stuff  about them) and added another argument to
2015-09-03T19:19:50Z sebboh: it: function. Then I commented out the (print ...) and put in (function ...) and bam, that's the prod version of this thing! :D
2015-09-03T19:20:18Z White_Flame: that's a great description fo the problems with the Object-Obsessed design of Java
2015-09-03T19:20:23Z sebboh:  /it does arbitrary things depending on how I call it!/
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2015-09-03T19:48:45Z emaczen: Under what conditions does perform get called? I can see that my perform method does indeed exist, by using (find-method ...)
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2015-09-03T19:59:13Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BDK -- It appears that my perform does not get called... Any ideas?
2015-09-03T20:02:12Z oGMo: you import ps-file but never export it and probably your asdf isn't loaded in asdf
2015-09-03T20:02:43Z oGMo: also importing like that is a bit ick and defeats the point
2015-09-03T20:03:42Z emaczen: oGMo: I tried a lot of things yesterday to avoid the import but couldn't find an alternative solution.
2015-09-03T20:04:20Z oGMo: emaczen: the solution is to make your own package and export the symbol from that, and reference it in your .asd
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2015-09-03T20:05:05Z oGMo: :components (... (my-foo:ps-file "...") ...)
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2015-09-03T20:05:36Z Xach: oGMo: then you have to make sure my-foo is loaded in time
2015-09-03T20:05:41Z oGMo: of course that requires you load the system containing it _before_ the defsystem form, but that's not hard
2015-09-03T20:06:15Z oGMo: Xach: sure, but it's an extra line, and then you're using a symbol you "own"
2015-09-03T20:06:29Z Xach: an extra eval-when form
2015-09-03T20:06:42Z Xach: oGMo: the siren song of :defsystem-depends-on led to this
2015-09-03T20:07:26Z oGMo: Xach: yeah, I think a macro that expands to the eval-when with loads you could easily use before the defsystem would make life easier
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2015-09-03T20:07:52Z oGMo: (defsystem-require &rest systems)
2015-09-03T20:08:30Z oGMo: trivial to write, but not having it in asdf is chicken-and-egg
2015-09-03T20:08:43Z emaczen: oGMo: After I evaluate (asdf:load-system :geometry-ui) I can see that 'ps-file and 'shared-ps-lisp-file are interned
2015-09-03T20:08:55Z emaczen: interned in :asdf
2015-09-03T20:09:14Z oGMo: emaczen: but probably not exported from
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2015-09-03T20:09:25Z emaczen: Why does that matter?
2015-09-03T20:09:40Z emaczen: You are right, they are not exported, I have to use ::
2015-09-03T20:09:40Z oGMo: because *package* is probably not asdf when it loads the .asd, though i'm not sure
2015-09-03T20:09:54Z oGMo: given it's not working that seems likely though
2015-09-03T20:10:11Z emaczen: The in-package statement I use is :asdf-user...
2015-09-03T20:10:22Z emaczen: Let me hack that real quick and see what happens.
2015-09-03T20:10:27Z oGMo: then they're definitely not the same symbol
2015-09-03T20:11:23Z Xach: oGMo: it is guaranteed to be a package in which you can use unqualified external asdf sysmbols
2015-09-03T20:12:05Z Xach: and if you (import 'foo :asdf), (eq 'foo 'asdf::foo) => t
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2015-09-03T20:14:30Z oGMo: oh, right .. but emaczen is using :ps-file not ps-file, heh
2015-09-03T20:14:46Z emaczen: Ok, if I change (in-package #:asdf-user) to (in-package #:asdf) in "my-asdf-utils.asd" then the perform method does get called...
2015-09-03T20:16:00Z emaczen: ^^ Does that make sense to anyone?
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2015-09-03T20:17:17Z oGMo: emaczen: where is my-asdf-utils.asd
2015-09-03T20:18:09Z emaczen: In a directory called my-asdf-utils
2015-09-03T20:18:20Z emaczen: ~/src/my-asdf-utils
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2015-09-03T20:18:58Z oGMo: emaczen: i mean, post the contents heh
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2015-09-03T20:19:36Z emaczen: Sure, I'll annotate the paste.
2015-09-03T20:21:07Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BDK/1
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2015-09-03T20:26:52Z emaczen: oGMo: Thoughts?
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2015-09-03T20:34:37Z oGMo: emaczen: sorry, distracted, but i'm not sure how using :ps-file will work at all, but again, distracted heh
2015-09-03T20:37:46Z Xach: oGMo: it's explained in the manual that the symbol-name is looked up in *package* first, then in the ASDF package, I think.
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2015-09-03T20:38:26Z oGMo: Xach: oh, crazy
2015-09-03T20:38:41Z oGMo: and i clearly haven't read that in awhile
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2015-09-03T20:42:32Z emaczen: Xach: That's correct, I read that yesterday.
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2015-09-04T01:14:16Z Ober: bitwiggler: not on reddit please
2015-09-04T01:14:27Z Ober: you have an issue with them don't hijack my thread to do it
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2015-09-04T01:41:35Z breakds: A quick question. I usually structure my project with a single .asd file: project-name/project-name.asd. Is there any way for ASDF to find project-name/some-other-name.asd and load it?
2015-09-04T01:47:36Z bitwiggler: akkad: stassats only said that because you're black.
2015-09-04T01:48:43Z Ober: he's not from here.
2015-09-04T01:49:57Z akkad: it comes with the channel
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2015-09-04T01:55:49Z Ober: so ediware is the gold standard. ok
2015-09-04T01:57:34Z phf: breakds: yes it happens by default, asdf search not by projects but by registered folders
2015-09-04T01:57:58Z White_Flame: if project-name/ is already in *central-repository*... yeah
2015-09-04T01:58:07Z White_Flame: erm, *central-registry*
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2015-09-04T02:00:48Z breakds: White_Flame: my understanding is that ASDF by default search for .asd in subdirectories? so if "all-projects" is in *central-registry*, then all-projects/project-name/project-name.asd will be found.
2015-09-04T02:03:10Z breakds: White_Flame: Actually I tried what you suggested and it worked :) Thanks a lot. I'll figure out why.
2015-09-04T02:04:16Z White_Flame: I don't know if it searches recursively; I've never relied on that behavior
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2015-09-04T02:11:51Z breakds: White_Flame: Thanks. I don't believe it does search recursively, but it may search with depth > 1, let me experiment more. Curiously, do you eve put several  .asd file in one project?
2015-09-04T02:12:33Z White_Flame: yes
2015-09-04T02:12:46Z White_Flame: although there's generally one "main" one that you load, which references the other private .asd's
2015-09-04T02:16:12Z breakds: That makes sense to me. I was asking this because I found it weird when looking at clack's source: https://github.com/fukamachi/clack. There are dozens of .asd files, but the main one (clack.asd) does not explicitly reference the others.
2015-09-04T02:18:04Z breakds: Ahha and for *central-registry*, apparently it does not search recursively. -> https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/find-system.lisp#L253
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2015-09-04T02:22:27Z White_Flame: right, I suspected as much, given how many entries we shove into our registry
2015-09-04T02:24:15Z breakds: Thanks. Well for one project with many satellite .asd files, I think I'll just have a main one which loads a file that populates *central-registry* :)
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2015-09-04T02:24:46Z White_Flame: I haven't used clack, but I wonder if those .asd files are there so users can pull in what they need, ie they're actually independent
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2015-09-04T02:26:53Z breakds: Peeking the code, at least the asd files for default handlers are loaded at runtime with quicklisp. There must be some code to register them, I just haven't found it yet.
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2015-09-04T02:27:20Z breakds: Really appreciate your insight, White_Falem :)
2015-09-04T02:27:38Z White_Flame: np, dreaksb
2015-09-04T02:31:39Z theos: minion: please tell breakds about tab-complete
2015-09-04T02:31:39Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tab-complete''.
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2015-09-04T02:34:43Z breakds: theos: what do you mean by tab-complete?
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2015-09-04T02:35:25Z theos: breakds you type a partial name and press tab to autocomplete it. xchat has tabcomplete feature.
2015-09-04T02:36:09Z breakds: theos: yep it completes the username. Thanks :) New to IRC ...
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2015-09-04T03:24:20Z nakiya: hi guys, trying to get zeromq working with lispbox in windows
2015-09-04T03:24:42Z nakiya: and it fails...
2015-09-04T03:25:29Z nakiya: Initially it's
2015-09-04T03:25:31Z nakiya:  f
2015-09-04T03:25:46Z nakiya: Unable to load foreign library (ZEROMQ).
2015-09-04T03:25:47Z nakiya:   Error opening shared library libzmq.dll : The specified module could not be found. .
2015-09-04T03:26:31Z nakiya: After I put the dll in the folder, Unable to load foreign library (ZEROMQ).
2015-09-04T03:26:32Z nakiya:   Error opening shared library libzmq.dll : %1 is not a valid Win32 application. .
2015-09-04T03:26:44Z nakiya: Anyone got this working?
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2015-09-04T04:22:08Z loke: Has anyone seen fenlix recently?
2015-09-04T04:22:34Z brucem: He was active 11 and a half hours ago in some form.
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2015-09-04T04:31:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-04T04:59:23Z loke: Hello beach
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2015-09-04T05:07:53Z jackdaniel: good morning o/
2015-09-04T05:08:27Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-09-04T05:21:33Z loke: hello jd
2015-09-04T05:21:52Z loke: nakiya: Do you really need zeromq?
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2015-09-04T05:22:00Z CxCf: (message "hey all")
2015-09-04T05:22:34Z jackdaniel: CxCf: hello
2015-09-04T05:22:34Z loke: nakiya: When I used to zeromq (I later moved to to use a proper broker and decided to use RabbitMQ instead) I used pzmq. It worked quite well.
2015-09-04T05:25:01Z loke: CxCf: given the fact that you were asking in #emacs earlier, this SO question may be of interest to you: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12607716/setting-the-slime-in-emacs
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2015-09-04T05:32:48Z CxCf: Thanks loke . What's SLIME?
2015-09-04T05:33:08Z loke: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
2015-09-04T05:33:09Z CxCf: Superior Lisp Interaction Mode
2015-09-04T05:33:20Z loke: It's the Emacs-based Lisp development environment, really.
2015-09-04T05:33:44Z CxCf: I thought emacs was, by default, a Lisp development environment.
2015-09-04T05:33:53Z loke: Check the videos linked from that page
2015-09-04T05:34:25Z CxCf: k, will do:)
2015-09-04T05:34:32Z loke: CxCf: Note really. Well, kinda. But not.
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2015-09-04T05:34:45Z loke: SLIME makes it into one for Common Lisp.
2015-09-04T05:34:55Z CxCf: Gotcha
2015-09-04T05:35:08Z CxCf: I'll check those videos out!:)
2015-09-04T05:35:16Z nakiya: loke: did you manually install rabbitmq? or ql?
2015-09-04T05:35:22Z CxCf: negatory
2015-09-04T05:35:29Z CxCf: wait, nevermind
2015-09-04T05:36:19Z loke: nakiya: When I started using rabbitmq, there was no good Common Lisp library for it. So I wrote one that hooks into the rabbitmq-c library (C-based). It's available on QL under the same "cl-rabbit"
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2015-09-04T05:37:11Z CxCf: loke do you know if there is a .textinfo version of PLC?
2015-09-04T05:37:40Z loke: I also have a callback-based multiplexing layer on top of that library called cl-rabbit-async. It's not production grade yet so it's not on QL.
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2015-09-04T05:37:51Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit-async
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2015-09-04T05:41:05Z loke: CxCf: I don't think so. It's either the paper version or the html site.
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2015-09-04T05:44:51Z CxCf: loke kk:/
2015-09-04T05:47:50Z loke: I think I'll go and have some lunch now.
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2015-09-04T06:32:11Z drmeister: Hi beach - are you online?
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2015-09-04T06:41:52Z loke: drmeister: He went to the beach?
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2015-09-04T06:43:04Z drmeister: Hmm, too bad - I think I need to make some cosmetic changes to my tagging scheme and I wanted to float it past him.
2015-09-04T06:43:49Z drmeister: I'll post it anyway in case anyone else has some thoughts on it or sees something wrong.
2015-09-04T06:43:50Z drmeister: I was thinking 0 in the least significant bit for FIXNUM
2015-09-04T06:43:58Z drmeister: 011 == GENERAL pointer
2015-09-04T06:44:03Z drmeister: 111 == CONS pointer
2015-09-04T06:44:17Z loke: drmeister: That's what SBCL does
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2015-09-04T06:44:24Z drmeister: 00001 == CHARACTER immediate starting at the fifth bit
2015-09-04T06:44:29Z loke: that makes fixnums 63-bit.
2015-09-04T06:44:41Z jackdaniel:  /win 13
2015-09-04T06:44:55Z drmeister: 01001 == SINGLE-FLOAT immediate >> 5
2015-09-04T06:45:06Z drmeister: And 101 for a tagged va_list.
2015-09-04T06:45:15Z drmeister: (the last one takes some explaining).
2015-09-04T06:45:54Z drmeister: The reason for using 011 and 111 for general and CONS pointers is so that I can quickly distinguish pointers from everything else using (ptr&7)==3
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2015-09-04T06:46:56Z drmeister: Currently I can't do that because my GENERAL and CONS tags are 001 and 011 respectively
2015-09-04T06:47:17Z loke: drmeister: but that isn't faster than AND'ing with just about any other bit-pattern, would it?
2015-09-04T06:47:42Z loke: Oh wait, I think I see what you say.
2015-09-04T06:48:04Z Shinmera: conses are pointers too
2015-09-04T06:48:18Z Shinmera: so he gets a free cons and free pointer test
2015-09-04T06:48:20Z drmeister: Is there a way to generate a quick test for arbitrary 001 or 011?
2015-09-04T06:48:27Z drmeister: Sorry
2015-09-04T06:48:41Z drmeister: Is there a way to generate a quick test for 001 or 011?
2015-09-04T06:49:00Z drmeister: With bit fiddling
2015-09-04T06:49:40Z drmeister: My current tags 001 and 011 match 0x1
2015-09-04T06:50:44Z drmeister: The new one I describe above would match x11
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2015-09-04T06:51:20Z Shinmera: What are you fearing could be a problem with the new scheme?
2015-09-04T06:51:32Z drmeister: Change, I fear change.
2015-09-04T06:51:56Z Shinmera: Surely you must have these tagging schemes nicely abstracted away by now?
2015-09-04T06:52:12Z drmeister: It shouldn't be a problem though.  I don't do anything currently that ties me to the current tagging scheme so I should just be able to change the tag constants and away I go.
2015-09-04T06:52:15Z Shinmera: If so, giving it a whirl shouldn't take too long.
2015-09-04T06:52:31Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BTtJ507i/
2015-09-04T06:52:34Z Shinmera: Testing is the best way to see whether it's a stupid idea or not :)
2015-09-04T06:53:44Z drmeister: Then I can hack the MPS stack scanner to match pointers with the pattern x11.  Currently it appears to only match pointers with the pattern 000
2015-09-04T06:53:58Z Bike: drmeister: (n&5) == 1? or am i misunderstanding
2015-09-04T06:54:30Z drmeister: And there you go.
2015-09-04T06:54:50Z drmeister: What the heck was my problem? (rhetorical)
2015-09-04T06:55:16Z drmeister: Bike - that will work with the current scheme.
2015-09-04T06:55:25Z Bike: right.
2015-09-04T06:55:41Z Bike: of course, i don't know how that works out on the processor, because i can't remember every stupid x86 instruction
2015-09-04T06:55:58Z Bike: and xor test, i guess
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2015-09-04T07:21:47Z ehu: pjb: I sent you a mail in response to your account request. Did you receive it?
2015-09-04T07:22:42Z ehu: (got a "delayed" notification from Google)
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2015-09-04T07:38:30Z knobo-net: Are there any apache log parsers I can install.
2015-09-04T07:38:50Z knobo-net: from quicklisp
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2015-09-04T07:41:19Z knobo-net: or, how can I search in available quickload software
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2015-09-04T07:47:33Z Cymew: kolko:  (ql:system-apropos "log")
2015-09-04T07:47:57Z Cymew: That will give you a list of what's available. Not sure there's anything like you want, though.
2015-09-04T07:48:11Z Cymew: oops
2015-09-04T07:48:20Z Cymew: knobo-net: :  (ql:system-apropos "log")
2015-09-04T07:50:39Z nakiya: guys, how do I replace/upgrade asdf?
2015-09-04T07:50:41Z nakiya: UIOP requires ASDF 2.011.4 or later.
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2015-09-04T07:51:04Z Cymew: nakiya: What implementation are you using?
2015-09-04T07:51:29Z nakiya: lispbox 0.7 - ccl 1.6
2015-09-04T07:52:14Z Shinmera: Why are you using lispbox? It's long since abandoned.
2015-09-04T07:52:23Z nakiya: ugh
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2015-09-04T07:52:38Z Shinmera: Sorry, I guess?
2015-09-04T07:53:14Z Cymew: A decently modern implementation probably includes a v2 of ASDF, then there's some automagic stuff in v3 for aut-upgradability.
2015-09-04T07:53:17Z Shinmera: Usually upgrading ASDF is a matter of downloading the latest file and placing it to load before the rest, but  I'm not sure how lispbox organises its files.
2015-09-04T07:53:36Z nakiya: ok, I go back and get a non-antiquated setup then
2015-09-04T07:53:38Z nakiya: :(
2015-09-04T07:53:43Z Cymew: "auto-upgradability" that is.
2015-09-04T07:54:45Z Cymew: I must confess I had all but forgotten about lispbox
2015-09-04T07:55:03Z Shinmera: If you're on windows there's lispstick which is more up to date, if I remember correctly.
2015-09-04T07:56:05Z nakiya: @Shinmera : ok, let me try that. thanks
2015-09-04T07:56:11Z Cymew: My version of ccl is 1.10 so there are probably a truckload of bugfixes to look forward to. Always a comfort, eh?
2015-09-04T07:56:59Z Shinmera: Ah if only I had the time I would get on to a new cross-platform project for a "lispbox" type of thing
2015-09-04T07:57:09Z Shinmera: (It's on my todo, but alas.)
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2015-09-04T12:25:42Z oleo: helloo
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2015-09-04T12:29:05Z knobo-net: Is there any point of using esrap to parse apache logs?
2015-09-04T12:29:25Z knobo-net: Or is it better to just use cl-ppcre?
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2015-09-04T12:31:22Z Cymew: I have never used esrap, but using cl-ppcre means writing regular expressions. "You now have two problems" and so on...
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2015-09-04T12:37:45Z Shinmera: Why parse apache logs to begin with is the question that pops into my mind
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2015-09-04T12:40:47Z knobo-net: Shinmera: to make some statistics
2015-09-04T12:43:21Z Shinmera: What kind of statistics? Depending on how much you need to parse, some stupid regexes will do just fine.
2015-09-04T12:45:15Z knobo-net: I'll jst use esrap. I just tested it out, and it does the job.
2015-09-04T12:45:36Z Shinmera: Cool!
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2015-09-04T12:48:44Z pjb: ehu: Thank you, I received it.  The "delayed" came from the attempt on IPv6, I'll have to check the configuration; but it retried immediately on IPv4.
2015-09-04T12:49:13Z ehu: pjb: ok. good. thanks for the confirmation.
2015-09-04T12:49:16Z pjb: ehu: I wanted to have a look at the snow repo, but it looks like it didn't make it to gitlab.common-lisp.net?
2015-09-04T12:49:56Z ehu: ah. that's correct: it's still in Subversion.
2015-09-04T12:50:04Z pjb: Now I have to remember what issue I had to post on what project…
2015-09-04T12:50:14Z pjb: ehu: ok, I got the svn trunk.  Thanks.
2015-09-04T12:50:48Z ehu: I could mail the project maintainer to ask if he needs help migrating, if that's better.
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2015-09-04T12:56:32Z pjb: knobo-net: if you have to parse Apache logs, the first thing to do would be to change the configuration of apache to issue the logs as SEXPS!
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2015-09-04T13:00:28Z knobo-net: pjb: too late for that now.
2015-09-04T13:00:43Z knobo-net: But good ide for the future
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2015-09-04T13:00:58Z knobo-net: https://bitbucket.org/knobo/apache-log/src/67a168a9cc8770e0cf79ba8188c98e0fda1e2bf5/src/apache-log.lisp
2015-09-04T13:01:15Z knobo-net: there is the start at least
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2015-09-04T13:04:13Z dim: pjb: or see about cl-abnf and maybe its experimental support in pgloader (it needs some interest)
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2015-09-04T13:08:04Z knobo-net: it's quite slow, actually.
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2015-09-04T13:10:30Z Xach: |3b|: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-09-03/failure-report/3b-swf.html#3b-swf-swc is busted
2015-09-04T13:10:42Z Xach: ehu: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-09-03/failure-report/cl-irc.html#cl-irc has the cl-irc error
2015-09-04T13:11:35Z Xach: slyrus: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-09-03/failure-report/opticl.html#opticl -- cl-jpeg has updated and opticl is out of sync with it
2015-09-04T13:12:13Z ehu: Xach: thanks. looking at it.
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2015-09-04T13:29:58Z billstclair: A lisp Diceware passphrase generation library, with command-line script. https://github.com/billstclair/cl-diceware
2015-09-04T13:30:13Z billstclair: My simplest wrapper of /dev/random to date
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2015-09-04T13:32:35Z rme: "After you memorize your passphrase, burn your notes, pulverize the ashes and flush them down the toilet."
2015-09-04T13:33:10Z pjb: and be sure to be using your passphrase several times a day, less you forget it.
2015-09-04T13:33:36Z dlowe: for added security, use a different word list
2015-09-04T13:33:37Z jackdaniel: hm, not memorizing passphrase and keeping it in something fragile, easy to destroy has it's own merits :)
2015-09-04T13:33:52Z jackdaniel: if you memorize, you're the weakest link :p
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2015-09-04T13:39:40Z billstclair: Apparently there are problems with it in Linux SBCL. Will look at after my shower and breakfast
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2015-09-04T13:41:29Z knobo-net: hmm.. learning both r and rcl at the same time is maybe a bit to much.
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2015-09-04T14:01:20Z |3b|: Xach: i'm only seeing an error in cl-jpeg in that
2015-09-04T14:01:31Z Xach: oh, ok.
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2015-09-04T14:02:03Z Xach: hmm, cl-jpeg itself builds fine. i wonder what's up.
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2015-09-04T14:02:20Z Xach: maybe it's a build order issue :(
2015-09-04T14:02:28Z |3b|: could be
2015-09-04T14:05:38Z |3b|: looks like https://github.com/sharplispers/cl-jpeg/commit/845ef5ac5682a8596bee1d0f867b4c1ef8f3c01f broke it, should have used DEFINE-CONSTANT instead of DEFCONSTANT for those
2015-09-04T14:05:50Z |3b| has no idea why it would load sometimes though
2015-09-04T14:06:27Z |3b|: unless something builds .fasl files without loading them, then they are loaded in a fresh image
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2015-09-04T14:12:51Z Xach: |3b|: i think what's happening is it's building the cl-jpeg fasls for 3b-swf-swc first, then later, when it's time to try cl-jpeg from scratch, it loads the existing cl-jpeg fasls without compiling first.
2015-09-04T14:13:16Z Xach: |3b|: so cl-jpeg passes but the first project that uses cl-jpeg fails
2015-09-04T14:13:32Z Xach: i tried building everything from a cold cache and it takes a very long time, but would catch issues like this
2015-09-04T14:13:46Z Xach: i'll bring it up on the cl-jpeg issue tracker
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2015-09-04T14:14:05Z Xach: well, i guess i could fix it myself, as a sharplisper
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2015-09-04T14:18:40Z Xach: oh, phew. easy fixes.
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2015-09-04T14:20:10Z Cymew: It's Friday after all
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2015-09-04T14:24:37Z knobo-net: Maybe I should just ask... Does anyone know how to make a plot with dates on the x axis with rcl?
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2015-09-04T14:28:18Z Shinmera: Does anyone have a clue on how to use ASDF's source concatenation feature?
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2015-09-04T14:29:34Z eudoxia: i think i used it... once. couldn't find the output :V
2015-09-04T14:30:16Z kami: Hello #lisp
2015-09-04T14:30:20Z Shinmera: I think the idea is to use it as a build-op.
2015-09-04T14:32:30Z Shinmera: Yeah that does the trick.
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2015-09-04T14:33:46Z pjb: Shinmera: topological sort on the dependencies, and concatenation of the files.
2015-09-04T14:34:08Z Shinmera: pjb: I understand what it does, thanks.
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2015-09-04T14:55:44Z dxtr: Hi! Looking at https://github.com/dxtr/pass ; am I doing something wrong or ugly regarding the setup of the project? I still don't feel comfortable with the toolchain :p
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2015-09-04T14:56:55Z Xach: dxtr: I wouldn't use REQUIRE. Those relationships should be in the system file.
2015-09-04T14:57:23Z dxtr: Which file is the "system file"?
2015-09-04T14:57:55Z eudoxia: dxtr: the only changes i'd make: you can replace that big huge chunk in the .asd file's :long-description with #.(uiop:read-file-string (uiop:subpathname *load-pathname* "README.md")) and instead of :use'ing all those UIOP packages, id use :import-from of the stuff i need
2015-09-04T14:57:57Z Xach: dxtr: pass.asd
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2015-09-04T14:59:27Z dxtr: Xach: You mean just cut-and-paste to the .asd file?
2015-09-04T15:00:52Z fe[nl]ix: dxtr: no need to define a new package, that may even become illegal in the future
2015-09-04T15:01:12Z dxtr: eudoxia: :import-from?
2015-09-04T15:01:14Z loke``: Hello fenlix.
2015-09-04T15:01:32Z loke``: fe[nl]ix: Did you get my message re. bordeaux-threads release number?
2015-09-04T15:01:41Z eudoxia: dxtr: (:use :package) imports every symbol from :package, (:import-from :package :some-function :some-class) imports only the symbols you need
2015-09-04T15:01:42Z fe[nl]ix: dxtr: same with the #. form
2015-09-04T15:01:53Z dxtr: eudoxia: Oh, neat
2015-09-04T15:02:00Z fe[nl]ix: loke``: I'll make a new release
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2015-09-04T15:02:36Z dxtr: fe[nl]ix: Illegal to define a new package?
2015-09-04T15:02:38Z loke``: fenlix: thanks! (then I can get rid of my own version of timed-condwait that I created because I thought BT didn't have it)
2015-09-04T15:02:48Z fe[nl]ix: dxtr: yes
2015-09-04T15:03:14Z dxtr: You mean (defpackage :pass (:use...)) in src/pass.lisp?
2015-09-04T15:03:39Z fe[nl]ix: no, in pass.asd
2015-09-04T15:03:46Z dxtr: Oh
2015-09-04T15:04:03Z dxtr: (defpackage pass-asd ...)?
2015-09-04T15:04:10Z eudoxia: yeah cl-project shouldn't generate packages in asd files
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2015-09-04T15:04:32Z fe[nl]ix: dxtr: don't create any new package in a .asd
2015-09-04T15:04:36Z fe[nl]ix: ASDF does that already
2015-09-04T15:04:57Z dxtr: Hmm, okay
2015-09-04T15:05:18Z knobo-net: so I managed to create a simple graph with rcl :)
2015-09-04T15:05:24Z knobo-net: good night :)
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2015-09-04T15:05:38Z dxtr: Well, thanks for your helpful tips! I've got to run home now :)
2015-09-04T15:06:15Z Xach: dxtr: no, i mean instead of (require foo), add foo to the :depends-on list in the system definition.
2015-09-04T15:06:24Z dxtr: Right!
2015-09-04T15:06:28Z fe[nl]ix: dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BEP
2015-09-04T15:07:14Z dxtr: fe[nl]ix: Oh that's awesome!
2015-09-04T15:07:28Z fe[nl]ix: that's all you need
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2015-09-04T15:07:44Z dxtr: I'm trying to learn this "the correct way"
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2015-09-04T15:08:24Z dxtr: Again, thanks a lot! I'll modify this to make it more correct tonight!
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2015-09-04T15:26:54Z billstclair: The problem with cl-diceware on linux was that I used /dev/random isntead of /dev/urandom, which tends to hang on desktop machines.
2015-09-04T15:27:04Z billstclair: Changed the default to /dev/urandom, with options to use /dev/rantom
2015-09-04T15:29:19Z eudoxia: nice finally i can replace my diceware script with a library
2015-09-04T15:29:48Z rme: A customer already.
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2015-09-04T15:35:12Z ehu: Xach: do you distribute cl-irc trunk? or a tag?
2015-09-04T15:35:34Z Xach: ehu: I use http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/releases/cl-irc_latest.tar.gz
2015-09-04T15:35:40Z Xach: ehu: I can switch, if it helps.
2015-09-04T15:35:44Z ehu: ok. I'll need to create a release then.
2015-09-04T15:35:58Z ehu: not on my account, was wondering if I could skip a step.
2015-09-04T15:36:08Z ehu: but I can create the release.
2015-09-04T15:38:02Z Xach must update to use https
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2015-09-04T17:05:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is cells abandonware?
2015-09-04T17:05:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or is it just stable
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2015-09-04T17:10:06Z attila_lendvai: I guess the truth is somewhere halfway. there's also hu.dwim.computed-class that we extensively used in different environments. somewhat different than cells, but the same idea.
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2015-09-04T17:14:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
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2015-09-04T17:16:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any code samples for hu.dwim.computed-class?
2015-09-04T17:16:33Z Xach: eudoxia: fyi, http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-09-04/failure-report/asdf-linguist.html#asdf-linguist-test
2015-09-04T17:17:26Z Shinmera: Xach: Ubiquitous is almost done. https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous
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2015-09-04T17:18:49Z Xach: Shinmera: cool
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2015-09-04T17:29:04Z rpg: Is there any good way to generate graphs (plots, not edges and links) from CL?
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2015-09-04T17:29:33Z pjb: There are ways.
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2015-09-04T17:30:16Z dlowe: call out to dots
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2015-09-04T17:31:43Z rme: rpg: I adapted code from charts.lisp in cl-pdf to make pretty nice plots for a client's application.
2015-09-04T17:32:01Z rme: Make that "chart.lisp" (no #\s at the end)
2015-09-04T17:32:08Z rpg: rme: thanks; I'll have a look at cl-pdf
2015-09-04T17:33:02Z dlowe: Oops, I read that exactly backwards
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2015-09-04T17:35:29Z rpg: I usually use gnuplot, but talking to gp is pretty horrible.
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2015-09-04T17:37:01Z Xach: there are a couple libraries for that task
2015-09-04T17:37:04Z Xach: I don't know if they're any good.
2015-09-04T17:37:25Z Xach: One thing I sometimes try is asking Xof, and he explains how to do it in R. That works once or twice every five years.
2015-09-04T17:37:58Z dlowe: wasn't there something built on vecto?
2015-09-04T17:38:30Z Xach: aw-charting I think. I never really liked the output.
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2015-09-04T17:44:43Z rpg: One more thing (data today...) is there a good way to do globbing? Seems like directory has limited wildcarding -- ok with * in pathnames, but not ?....
2015-09-04T17:45:10Z Xach: rpg: very varied support across implementations.
2015-09-04T17:45:36Z rpg: Xach: this is one of the reasons I'm skeptical about Fare's idea about using CL for scripting....
2015-09-04T17:45:47Z Xach: he gets around it by writing his own filesystem layer
2015-09-04T17:46:17Z Xach: fare-cl for scripting
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2015-09-04T17:52:04Z rpg: Xach: right. A sort of super-UIOP.  Since he had to write a filesystem layer to make ASDF work portably. PATHNAMEs, alas, are a trainwreck.
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2015-09-04T18:04:05Z rpg: actually, I see his cl-scripting, but not fare-cl....
2015-09-04T18:04:41Z Xach: it is not a separate thing
2015-09-04T18:04:46Z Xach: it's uiop and other stuff
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2015-09-04T18:05:10Z rpg: Really hard to see how a language that can't reliably do things like globbing is going to be a plausible scripting environment.
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2015-09-04T18:05:28Z Xach: by adding stuff to it
2015-09-04T18:05:36Z rpg: And while working with regexps is feasible, it's like pulling teeth.
2015-09-04T18:05:38Z Xach: patching up and over all implementation differences
2015-09-04T18:05:44Z Xach: that seems to be the fare approach
2015-09-04T18:06:10Z rpg: That does seem to be the approach: question is whether it's tilting at windmills.
2015-09-04T18:06:44Z kristof: What are we talking about?
2015-09-04T18:06:52Z Xach: I work around it by mostly using sbcl, which has the globbing I like. But I also don't write scripts to run from the command-line much. I more often write functions to run from the repl.
2015-09-04T18:06:53Z rpg: Xach:  time will tell...
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2015-09-04T18:07:30Z rpg: kristof: the notion of CL as a scripting language. Stumbled in this because I need to do some data analysis, with some data in CL variables, some in files, etc.
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2015-09-04T18:08:04Z rpg: data analysis of some CL artifacts, which is why just doing it in a data analysis tool isn't simply the obvious choice.
2015-09-04T18:08:05Z kristof: rpg: There isn't a uniform globbing library?
2015-09-04T18:08:17Z kristof: For file descriptors.
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2015-09-04T18:08:31Z rpg: kristof: maybe there is. Haven't found it...
2015-09-04T18:08:57Z rpg: CL may be a "batteries scattered around the basement floor" language ;-)
2015-09-04T18:09:10Z rpg: We have the batteries, but they can be hard to find.
2015-09-04T18:09:46Z kristof: Yeah. That's the weird thing about modern computing. Decades ago there were hundreds of architectures, dozens of operating systems, and with those operating systems one or two different potential filesystems.
2015-09-04T18:10:31Z kristof: And CL was designed at a time when all those things had to be taken into consideration. And now, people are using, what, x86 80% of the time and ARM the other 10%?
2015-09-04T18:10:46Z rpg: kristof: and basically the UNIX filesystem is the only one left.
2015-09-04T18:10:51Z kristof: And operating systems have all converged to *NIX and Windows.
2015-09-04T18:11:03Z rpg: Even Windows we can look at as if the filesystem is UNIXy, usually.
2015-09-04T18:11:22Z kristof: rpg: Have you looked at a windows filesystem heirarchy lately? What a mess.
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2015-09-04T18:11:55Z rpg: kristof: Not really. Whenever I use windows, I just screw something on top of it so it looks like UNIX, and stick to that abstraction as much as possible.
2015-09-04T18:12:07Z faalentijn: kristof: and 10% time they are actually using toasters
2015-09-04T18:12:37Z rpg: anyway, timing out here. Have to move the laptop to a new location. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.
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2015-09-04T18:12:45Z kristof: rpg: Anyway, the lovely bit is that computation has become so complicated that only a few filesystems and operating systems are popular anymore, and thus we can forget about the more general filesystem abstractions.
2015-09-04T18:13:30Z rpg: Right. But as you point out, the Least Common Denominator of a bunch of dead filesystem species is baked into CL right now. :-/
2015-09-04T18:13:31Z kristof: faalentijn: I would not be surprised if a modern microwave's embedded microcontroller had more processing power than the computer system aboard the Apollo 11
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2015-09-04T18:15:20Z f-pound-at-bang: Is there anything like Emacs' «M-x apropos» in a Lisp REPL?
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2015-09-04T18:15:50Z dlowe: (APROPOS "apropos")
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2015-09-04T18:16:10Z f-pound-at-bang: Oh, thanks. :-)
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2015-09-04T18:16:49Z f-pound-at-bang: Okay, now let's say I've located the definition I want - how do I check its docstring?
2015-09-04T18:17:16Z Xach: (documentation 'the-function-name 'function)
2015-09-04T18:17:25Z f-pound-at-bang: Ah, thanks. :-)
2015-09-04T18:17:50Z dlowe: many times I also do (describe #'the-function-name)
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2015-09-04T18:18:11Z f-pound-at-bang: Oh, describe seems to be more useful, indeed, thanks!
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2015-09-04T18:18:57Z Xach: describe is very handy
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2015-09-04T19:37:28Z dim: I've never done describe on a function before, it's really good
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2015-09-04T19:38:33Z Shinmera: Extending DESCRIBE-OBJECT for methods on my classes is something I've started doing recently. It's quite nice.
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2015-09-04T19:39:06Z Xach: dim: Well, it depends on what the implementation does.
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2015-09-04T19:39:21Z dim: the SBCL one is to my liking, then
2015-09-04T19:39:25Z Shinmera: Xach: Am I still going to be in time for ubiquitous to be in the QL release?
2015-09-04T19:39:28Z Xach: DESCRIBE is like ROOM. You never know what you might get.
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2015-09-04T19:39:31Z Xach: Shinmera: yes
2015-09-04T19:39:35Z Shinmera: Great!
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2015-09-04T19:39:40Z dim: (or some other proper english phrase to that effect)
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2015-09-04T19:40:19Z dim: I'm soon to make a pgloader release, what't the next QL date?
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2015-09-04T19:40:37Z dim: I don't think I can make it, and one month is not a problem, but maybe...
2015-09-04T19:40:44Z Xach: dim: I hope to make a release early next week.
2015-09-04T19:40:54Z Xach: In general, I try to do it on or shortly after the first weekend of the month.
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2015-09-04T19:41:05Z Xach: This month may be an exception. A lot of unrelated things going on, and lots of broken libraries.
2015-09-04T19:42:01Z dim: ok, won't rush through a release, but will also keep that in mind, thanks
2015-09-04T19:42:34Z dim: the next pgloader release is going to be the first one I do “source only”, as I also maintain the debian/ubuntu packages
2015-09-04T19:43:06Z dim: it's going to be the time for “if you want other platform binary support, please contact your favorite packager for it”
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2015-09-04T19:55:04Z Xach: I don't know if I can choose just one favorite
2015-09-04T19:56:16Z dim: hehe, fair enough, will rephrase ;-)
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2015-09-04T20:01:38Z Xach: Just being silly
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2015-09-04T20:16:57Z dim: well I do have a specific target in mind in my phrasing and it might be good not to pressure him actually, as pgsql people would easily guess who that is
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2015-09-04T23:34:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: "You need ASDF >= 2.32 to load this system correctly."
2015-09-04T23:34:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to tell quicklisp to upgrade ASDf?
2015-09-04T23:36:39Z XachX: No. You have to preload the version you want.
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2015-09-04T23:41:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish there was a way to make apt work with things like quicklisp/gem/npm/pip/etc.
2015-09-04T23:42:25Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: dim has done some stuff with that
2015-09-04T23:43:17Z aeth: Is there an easier way to get this directory other than this? (asdf:system-source-directory (intern (package-name *package*) :keyword))
2015-09-04T23:43:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Will cljwt or something like it be in the next quicklisp?
2015-09-04T23:43:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: git@github.com:gschjetne/cljwt.git
2015-09-04T23:43:43Z aeth: I guess I could just literally use the name of the package in the file itself, even though it's not as general that way
2015-09-04T23:43:45Z Xach: aeth: "this"?
2015-09-04T23:43:56Z aeth: s/this directory/the directory of the package/
2015-09-04T23:44:14Z aeth: Technically, the directory of the .asd file, since it could be in e.g. src/
2015-09-04T23:44:15Z Xach: aeth: *package* need not have the same name as the system
2015-09-04T23:44:47Z Xach: aeth: You can use *load-truename*/*compile-file-truename* at readtime, e.g. with #.
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2015-09-04T23:45:26Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: Nobody has asked me to add it
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2015-09-04T23:45:53Z Xach: aeth: also, you don't have to intern it in the keyword package. it can use a string as the name, too.
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2015-09-04T23:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: I don't know if there's a better implementation of the standard out there, but Google uses them during the OpenID Connect authentication sequence.
2015-09-04T23:48:03Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: It looks like the author might want to do more stuff before asking it to be added to quicklisp
2015-09-04T23:48:09Z Xach: schjetne: what say you?
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2015-09-04T23:52:59Z aeth: Xach: oh oops, I forgot packages don't have to be the same name, thanks
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2015-09-05T01:24:56Z akkad: how does one use load with relative path from slime? setting *default-pathname-defaults*, swank:set-default-directory, and no luck on something like (load "foo/bar.lisp") when foo is in the currently defined directory
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2015-09-05T01:48:27Z pjb: minion: memo for akkad: what does "currently defined directory" mean?  What is it?
2015-09-05T01:48:27Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell akkad when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-05T02:02:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I use postmodern with timestamp columns?
2015-09-05T02:04:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Specifically, how do I make a dao class that defaults to the current time?
2015-09-05T02:04:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I looked at the examples, but I get an error along the lines of "cannot cast .... to sql literal"
2015-09-05T02:05:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: that is: "Value @2015-09-04T22:08:33.265330-04:00 can not be converted to an SQL literal."
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2015-09-05T02:42:13Z Ober: http://cons.io/path.html odd I expected there to be more consistency with default-pathname-defaults over implementations
2015-09-05T02:43:09Z Fare: is anyone willing to be sounding board for the next chapter of ngnghm.github.io ?
2015-09-05T02:43:44Z Fare: Ober: for slightly better pathname abstractions use uiop.
2015-09-05T02:44:06Z Ober:  thought you were going to say iolib
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2015-09-05T02:44:32Z Fare: iolib is even better, though less portable (although -- how's the windows port coming along?)
2015-09-05T02:44:46Z Fare: also, requiring to link to a C library is a pain.
2015-09-05T02:44:52Z Ober: fix-posix?
2015-09-05T02:44:56Z Fare: yup
2015-09-05T02:44:58Z Ober: that should be a linux kernel module...
2015-09-05T02:45:25Z Ober: given all the (safety 0)'s used in iolib.. I check out uiop. thanks
2015-09-05T02:45:53Z Fare: uiop is not as ambitious as iolib, but is ubiquitous.
2015-09-05T02:46:56Z Fare: it aims at making CL pathnames bearable portably, not at fixing them.
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2015-09-05T04:02:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-05T05:23:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: eudoxia?
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2015-09-05T06:25:42Z Ober: ooois there a "if 0" equivalent to block out code to not execute equivalent in lisp? other than just mass ;;
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2015-09-05T06:30:31Z |3b|: #+ or #- can be used that way
2015-09-05T06:30:40Z Ober: oh right. thanks
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2015-09-05T06:30:51Z Ober: wanted something more obvious than (if nil
2015-09-05T06:30:56Z |3b|: or (when nil ...)
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2015-09-05T06:35:10Z Ober hunts for an equivalent to elisp let-alist. 
2015-09-05T06:35:44Z Ober: to replace (let ((foo (cdr (assoc 'foo bar)) ...
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2015-09-05T06:37:54Z Ober: Easily let-bind values of an assoc-list by their names
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2015-09-05T07:13:44Z beach: Suppose I have a standard generic function with only required parameters and that uses the standard method combination.  I am thinking that for such a function, I have the right to have the effective method called with the individual arguments, as opposed to with a list of the arguments.  Does anyone see any reason (in the Common Lisp HyperSpec or in the AMOP) why I wouldn't have the right to do that?
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2015-09-05T07:26:10Z beach: Fare: I think your blog is absolutely excellent.  For those who haven't read it (yet): http://ngnghm.github.io/index.html
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2015-09-05T07:30:06Z Ober: beach: nice job
2015-09-05T07:30:33Z beach: What did I do?
2015-09-05T07:30:35Z Ober: outside of *features* is there a variable reflecting the implementations name?
2015-09-05T07:31:11Z |3b|: (lisp-implementation-type) might return the name, though it isn't a variable
2015-09-05T07:31:19Z Ober: that was it thanks
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2015-09-05T07:52:26Z atgnag: Theoretically, it shouldn't be too hard to make a lisp dialect to behave like a different lisp dialect, should it?
2015-09-05T07:56:35Z beach: atgnag: That depends on how similar they are.  In the worst case, you end up implementing the other dialect in the first one.  Then the difficulty depends on your requirement for things like performance.
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2015-09-05T07:58:19Z Ober looks for something with higher accuracy than get-universal-time
2015-09-05T07:59:58Z Shinmera: clhs get-internal-real-time
2015-09-05T07:59:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm
2015-09-05T08:01:28Z beach: atgnag: May I ask the reason for your question?
2015-09-05T08:01:57Z atgnag: beach: Well, I'm working on a platform, where the only lisp implementation is severely cripled, so I thought I'd see how far I can extend it.
2015-09-05T08:02:58Z beach: atgnag: Oh, interesting!  Do you care to share the name of the platform and the Lisp implementation?
2015-09-05T08:03:25Z Shinmera: Didn't pjb have a file that explored the intersections of CL, Scheme, and Elisp?
2015-09-05T08:03:30Z beach: atgnag: There are several complete Common Lisp implementations that can be installed wherever there is a working C compiler.
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2015-09-05T08:04:28Z atgnag: beach: It's ArrowLISP
2015-09-05T08:04:32Z beach: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-09-05T08:04:40Z beach: Shinmera:
2015-09-05T08:04:41Z atgnag: Note that ArrowLISP is an extremely primitive Lisp and doesn't even encompass a small portion of what's available in a modern Lisp like CL. It seems to be dynamically scoped and doesn't seem to provide a compiler. It also only provides lists, symbols, and booleans -- not even integers nor characters are mentioned in the manual. -- Rahul Jain
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2015-09-05T08:04:54Z Shinmera: beach: Right, that was the one.
2015-09-05T08:05:29Z beach: atgnag: If your platform has a C compiler, it is probably easier to install a real Common Lisp implementation.
2015-09-05T08:06:51Z atgnag: beach: No. The platform is Plan9, which has a standard C library, but not THE standard library.
2015-09-05T08:07:00Z beach: Hmm.
2015-09-05T08:07:25Z Shinmera: Wait, people actually use Plan9?
2015-09-05T08:07:30Z beach: atgnag: Your description of ArrowLISP makes it sound like it is so different from Common Lisp that you will end up implementing a full Common Lisp in a very primitive language.
2015-09-05T08:07:52Z atgnag: Shinmera: Believe it or not, yes. Screenshots show up on 8chans /tech/, at least.
2015-09-05T08:08:04Z atgnag: beach: Fun!
2015-09-05T08:08:14Z beach: Not really, no. :(
2015-09-05T08:08:19Z Shinmera: atgnag: I don't think that qualifies as really "using" it.
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2015-09-05T08:09:20Z atgnag: Shinmera: I mean, the screenshots showed the current thread, so they were at least using it at the moment.
2015-09-05T08:10:16Z Fare: beach: thanks! I'm working hard on the next installment... with the theme of data upgrade
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2015-09-05T08:10:43Z Fare: apparently, the initial choice of orthogonal persistence as a theme is driving the chapters so far.
2015-09-05T08:10:47Z Shinmera: atgnag: So let me get this straight: You're working with ArrowLISP not because you have to due to some weird company requirement, but because you want to use Plan9 in your free time?
2015-09-05T08:10:52Z beach: Fare: I am looking forward to it.
2015-09-05T08:11:01Z Shinmera: atgnag: Because the former is what I assumed to be the case until now.
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2015-09-05T08:12:21Z atgnag: Umm… yes.
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2015-09-05T08:13:05Z Shinmera: Alright. Any particular reason you want to go through with this? Because getting anything of actual value done in such an environment is going to be a /lot/ of effort.
2015-09-05T08:14:22Z atgnag: Shinmera: It'd be fun, maybe?
2015-09-05T08:14:45Z Shinmera: Not my kind of fun, but different strokes for different folks I guess.
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2015-09-05T08:30:29Z beach: atgnag: It might be easier to take an existing Common Lisp implementation written in C and adapt the C part to the existing library.  Certainly much easier than to write a Common Lisp implementation in ArrowLISP.
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2015-09-05T08:35:02Z Bike: plan 9 has a really weird c library, iirc. gonna be exciting.
2015-09-05T08:37:23Z Fare: what's ArrowLISP ?
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2015-09-05T09:00:43Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: hey!
2015-09-05T09:00:45Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: you here?
2015-09-05T09:03:19Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: In case you didn't catch it in the logs, I wrote a replacement for Universal-Config. http://shinmera.github.io/ubiquitous/
2015-09-05T09:05:30Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: oh! Definitely will check it out, thanks. I've been busy this week so I wasn't paying too much attention to IRC.
2015-09-05T09:06:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: though, I think you can mention me in the message and ZNC will cache it to notify me next time I log in.
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2015-09-05T09:06:31Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Well I only just now remembered that I promised to notify you about it, so
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2015-09-05T09:07:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: oh, I see.
2015-09-05T09:11:12Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: If you could take a look at it and give me some feedback within the coming week, that'd be great. Then I'd have a chance to fix it before it's in QL.
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2015-09-05T09:12:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I'll do my best to try and find time. I was just about writing somewhat similar library myself for a project at work. That means one thing off the list.
2015-09-05T09:13:29Z Shinmera: Well, I'll hope it actually does what you need then.
2015-09-05T09:14:16Z hitecnologys: It seems to do exactly what I need.
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2015-09-05T09:35:02Z beach: Fare: About persistence.  Did you see this new technology from Intel & Micron?  It might change the attitude toward persistence and make it a lot less costly: http://www.micron.com/about/innovations/3d-xpoint-technology
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2015-09-05T09:44:45Z Ober: hehe, cmucl uses 100 internal ticks per sec, clozure 1 million, and everyone else 1000
2015-09-05T09:46:12Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I assume it doesn't have JSON encoder at the moment?
2015-09-05T09:46:59Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: That's one of the purposeful departures from Universal-Config. If you want a different format, you need to handle the serialisation yourself.
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2015-09-05T09:47:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see.
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2015-09-05T10:08:07Z Ober: are bordaeux threads under say pcall really that expensive? I'm processing thousands of json files, and moving from 4 pcall works to doing it synchronously was actually 200% faster
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2015-09-05T10:16:47Z Fare: beach: the problem is one of point of view
2015-09-05T10:17:05Z Fare: will that change people's point of view? I don't think so.
2015-09-05T10:17:26Z Fare: Jochen Liedtke had orthogonal persistence on a Z80. With floppies. For gossake.
2015-09-05T10:17:48Z beach: Fare: You might be right, but I prefer to be optimistic.
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2015-09-05T10:20:33Z Fare: think of it as an opportunity to change the world :-)
2015-09-05T10:21:44Z beach: Oh, I am.
2015-09-05T10:24:38Z beach: Orthogonal persistence it a central feature of my planned LispOS.
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2015-09-05T10:31:41Z Fare: :-)
2015-09-05T10:31:51Z Fare: well, you're gonna love the next chapter, then
2015-09-05T10:32:28Z beach: Excellent!  When can I expect it?
2015-09-05T10:32:49Z Fare: If I get my head out of my ass, this sunday.
2015-09-05T10:33:01Z Fare: I wanted it last sunday, but didn't happen
2015-09-05T10:33:15Z beach: Never too late.
2015-09-05T10:33:45Z Fare: I have 4 hours of bus travel tomorrow, so that will be a good time.
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2015-09-05T10:37:40Z beach: How many chapters do you have thought stuff for?
2015-09-05T10:38:01Z Fare: I have no f-ing idea
2015-09-05T10:38:08Z beach: Notice that I didn't ask how many chapters to expect you to write.
2015-09-05T10:38:14Z Fare: I have a vague laundry list of topics
2015-09-05T10:38:24Z beach: Order of magnitude?
2015-09-05T10:38:25Z Fare: but I've been playing it by ear since the beginning
2015-09-05T10:38:30Z beach: Sure.
2015-09-05T10:38:41Z Fare: dunno, let's say 12 chapters
2015-09-05T10:38:46Z beach: Things like that shape up as they are written.
2015-09-05T10:38:57Z beach: Very nice!
2015-09-05T10:39:07Z Fare: persistence is taking much more time than anticipated — if everything is like that, that'll be more like 30 chapters.
2015-09-05T10:39:17Z beach: Heh.
2015-09-05T10:39:29Z Fare: I expected one or two chapters on persistence
2015-09-05T10:39:36Z Fare: and this is the fourth.
2015-09-05T10:39:51Z Fare: although it's more than persistence
2015-09-05T10:39:57Z Fare: it's data upgrade
2015-09-05T10:40:01Z Fare: it's change management
2015-09-05T10:40:09Z Fare: EVERYTHING is more than persistence.
2015-09-05T10:40:16Z Fare: Persistence is more than persistence.
2015-09-05T10:40:32Z Fare: Those bloody Humans get it all wrong
2015-09-05T10:40:41Z beach: I know. :)
2015-09-05T10:40:42Z Fare: I mean, Yahoos.
2015-09-05T10:41:09Z Fare: When I'm done writing enough of those chapters, I'll want to write code. Seriously.
2015-09-05T10:41:19Z Fare: I don't know when that is, though
2015-09-05T10:42:22Z beach: The most disappointing thing to me, given my job, is that the yahoo view is perpetuated by our teaching institutions simply because my colleagues don't have adequate training or time to thing things through.
2015-09-05T10:43:38Z Fare: we're the one who know. It's our responsibility to get the message out.
2015-09-05T10:43:55Z Fare: Even though the public for our ideas may be smaller than we'd hope.
2015-09-05T10:44:07Z Fare: It only has to be big enough to self-sustain
2015-09-05T10:44:25Z beach: I am doing my best.  So are you, I think.
2015-09-05T10:44:41Z Fare: until the Yahoos' systems crumble under the weight or their own stupidity.
2015-09-05T10:44:47Z Fare: thanks :-)
2015-09-05T10:44:50Z Fare: ttyl
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2015-09-05T11:46:10Z pjb: atgnag: in the case of ccl for example, the kernel written in C is about 32KLOC; but there are also a few low level stuff written in LAP in the lisp code.  The interface with the OS is not clearly delineated, and it's also somewhat merged with the processor variants (since eg. the kernel syscalls are implemented in LAP).  In anycase, the order of magnitude of the work required to port it to Plan 9 is not out of reach; I guess it could
2015-09-05T11:46:10Z pjb: be done in one man.month.
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2015-09-05T13:50:05Z hitecnologys: OK, so I've got a sketch of how that Clusivius thing might look like: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/Clusivius. I'm still not sure about architecture so RFC.
2015-09-05T13:50:32Z hitecnologys: Keep in mind that it's raw, it's work in progress, it's far from complete.
2015-09-05T13:51:06Z hitecnologys: Though, it already can function as simple HTTP server but with hunchentoot as both backend and transport.
2015-09-05T13:51:30Z hitecnologys: (which is obviously against architecture, yes)
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2015-09-05T14:06:36Z emaczen: Everytime I intern a symbol, it encases it with | | -- how can I stop this?
2015-09-05T14:06:50Z isoraqathedh: Is the symbol name in lowercase?
2015-09-05T14:07:21Z emaczen: isoraqathedh: Yeah, that appears to be the issue
2015-09-05T14:07:25Z emaczen: Thanks!
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2015-09-05T14:58:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a Lisp function for hash tables like python's dict.setdefault? i.e. it sets the key if it doesn't already exist and returns the value of the key?
2015-09-05T15:00:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nevermind, found one in alexandria
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2015-09-05T15:26:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can sbcl be used as an assembler?
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2015-09-05T15:28:53Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: see http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
2015-09-05T15:29:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool
2015-09-05T15:29:31Z scymtym: the focus of the article is something else but i can give you an idea
2015-09-05T15:29:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every once in a while, I get the urge to write programs to run on the bare metal
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2015-09-05T15:30:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking that with a bunch of lisp macros, the experience would be much less painful.
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2015-09-05T15:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like (with-bootimage-boilerplate . . . do stuff here . . .)
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2015-09-05T16:21:53Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: there are two or three projects to do that already
2015-09-05T16:21:59Z Xach: very bare
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2015-09-05T16:28:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you thinking of things like movitz?
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2015-09-05T17:19:06Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: and others
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2015-09-05T17:38:54Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, i am now briefly
2015-09-05T17:39:55Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: oh, great. There was a patch for cl-charms fixing VT100 symbols and I wondered if you could take a look. It seems good enough for me but second pair of eyes never hurt anyone.
2015-09-05T17:40:07Z Quadrescence: ill look now
2015-09-05T17:40:15Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: thanks.
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2015-09-05T17:48:38Z atgnag: pjb: Meh, it might be easier to port picolisp and adopt that to what I need.
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2015-09-05T17:52:31Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, made some comments. if those are fixed either of us can merge
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2015-09-05T17:54:21Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: OK, I'll monitor it and merge when it's done.
2015-09-05T17:54:38Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, it's all minor, easy stuff
2015-09-05T17:55:04Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: yeah, indeed.
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2015-09-05T17:59:00Z emaczen: Everytime after I load a system, I have to run slime-compile-defun in a lisp buffer  -- how can I automate this with ASDF? What method can I call inside ASDF's perform method, that will do the equivalent of slime-compile-defun?
2015-09-05T17:59:29Z emaczen: slime-compile-defun is C-c C-c
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2015-09-05T18:00:16Z Quadrescence: emaczen, do you have an ASD file?
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2015-09-05T18:01:14Z emaczen: Yes, I actually have a custom perform method that is concatenating forms together, and all that remains is to add something that will do the equivalent of "slime-compile-defun"
2015-09-05T18:01:37Z Quadrescence: emaczen, why not load the system?
2015-09-05T18:01:49Z Quadrescence: (asdf:load-system :emaczens-special-system)
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2015-09-05T18:02:23Z emaczen: Quadrescence: It seems not to detect changes when I do that.
2015-09-05T18:03:02Z Quadrescence: emaczen, what about using the :FORCE argument?
2015-09-05T18:03:06Z Quadrescence: (asdf:load-system :emaczens-special-system :force t)
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2015-09-05T18:03:58Z emaczen: That didn't work either... Let me try being more specific.
2015-09-05T18:04:30Z emaczen: The forms being concatenated together are inside of a (define-easy-handler ...) and everytime I make a change I usually just C-c C-c to see the change in the browser.
2015-09-05T18:05:04Z emaczen: When I run (asdf:load-system ...) I would like to not have to manually revert the buffer and then do C-c C-c
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2015-09-05T18:08:54Z Quadrescence: emaczen, what do you mean "forms being concatenated together"? Are you doing mystical voodoo with ASDF?
2015-09-05T18:09:14Z Quadrescence: (Unfortunately at this point I'm not sure the answer to your question without knowing what you're really doing under the hood. Even then I may not know.)
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2015-09-05T18:11:50Z emaczen: I'm concatenating parenscript forms together from dependency files and putting them all underneath a a (define-easy-handler ... (parenscript:ps ...)) form. This allows you to serve javascript files which are being converted from parenscript with the (parenscript:ps ...) form.
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2015-09-05T18:12:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: Are the projects you're thinking of LispOSes or Os-construction kits?
2015-09-05T18:12:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm thinking of something more along the lines of Ocaml's MirageOS
2015-09-05T18:12:27Z emaczen: For some reason, I have to run C-c C-c for the changes to be apparent in the browser.
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2015-09-05T19:29:32Z physixer: how do I create a doubly-linked list?
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2015-09-05T19:33:52Z Shinmera: you ask the cons nicely.
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2015-09-05T19:40:16Z physixer: Shinmera: how do I ask the cons nicely?
2015-09-05T19:41:11Z Shinmera: Every cons is different. Gotta figure it out on your own.
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2015-09-05T19:42:36Z physixer: And here I thought I lisp like languages are a serious contender my current top favorite Python.
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2015-09-05T19:48:00Z Shinmera: Nobody cares about your favourite.
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2015-09-05T19:58:07Z Bike: you could make a struct with two nodes, like usual, or you could make one out of conses, like (list previous-node next-node item)
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2015-09-05T21:00:13Z axion: i have a doubly-linked-list example i wrote
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2015-09-05T21:07:55Z axion: physixer: not the most elegant code, but it's been in use with mission critical code for about a year without a hitch. steal/modify/whatever as you wish: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154810
2015-09-05T21:08:23Z axion: looks like i use WHEN-LET, so be sure to load alexandria
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2015-09-05T23:43:38Z pjb: atgnag: no, whatever the program or the language, it will be about the same work to port it to a new system.  It would be EXACTLY the same work, if they used a sane modularization and abstraction of the system layer.
2015-09-05T23:44:03Z pjb: atgnag: therefore it would be idiotic to try to port picolisp rather than a Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp.
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2015-09-05T23:49:20Z pjb: physixer: check  com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dll.
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2015-09-06T00:00:54Z snatch: Is Hal Abelson autistic, by any chance? Just curious.
2015-09-06T00:01:28Z pjb: Aren't we all a little?
2015-09-06T00:02:00Z pjb: If you know a programmer who's not autistic, I bet he's not programming, he's bossing a bar!
2015-09-06T00:02:44Z s00pcan: programmers are just a subset of all autistic people
2015-09-06T00:02:58Z snatch: He just comes off as definition autistic in some of his lectures, but, I reckon you're right ("Aren't we all a little?").
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2015-09-06T01:47:01Z theos: no?
2015-09-06T01:47:54Z theos: i am a programmer and i am not in the spectrum
2015-09-06T01:50:45Z Fare: what spectrum?
2015-09-06T01:52:22Z Bike: autism spectrum
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2015-09-06T03:36:29Z gabriel_laddel: I'm going to leave a running log of the hack I'm trying to achieve (build maxima, dump the lisp image, build stumpwm with that image, dump it and then swank into it - on SBCL) . Perhaps someone will have some useful input, given their experience with maxima / CL. As it is, I've tried to (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "binary-sbcl/maxima.core" :toplevel #'SB-IMPL::TOPLEVEL-INIT) rather than using `maxima-dump' (located at
2015-09-06T03:36:29Z gabriel_laddel:  .../maxima/src/maxima-build.lisp, see .../maxima/INSTALL.lisp for more info) - this fails - Maxima gives the message "Maxima restarted" when it should have loaded the top level SBCL repl.
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2015-09-06T05:19:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-06T05:20:56Z gabriel_laddel: boker tov.
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2015-09-06T07:23:50Z atgnag: How can you set multiple variables at once?
2015-09-06T07:24:11Z Bike: clhs psetf
2015-09-06T07:24:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2015-09-06T07:24:17Z Bike: if that is what you mean
2015-09-06T07:24:45Z beach: atgnag: What do you mean by "at once"?
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2015-09-06T07:25:05Z gabriel_laddel: multiple values?
2015-09-06T07:25:09Z atgnag: Beetny: nevermind, setf works apparently.
2015-09-06T07:25:14Z gabriel_laddel: kk
2015-09-06T07:25:16Z atgnag: gabriel_laddel: Yeah.
2015-09-06T07:25:26Z Shinmera: SETF will set things one pair after the other though.
2015-09-06T07:25:37Z Shinmera: So if you use values that you set in later pairs the new value will be used.
2015-09-06T07:25:41Z Shinmera: hence PSETF
2015-09-06T07:25:42Z gabriel_laddel: atgnag: you should be aware that "multiple values" means something *very* specific in CL
2015-09-06T07:26:03Z gabriel_laddel: a function can return multiple values using (among others) the `values' form
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2015-09-06T07:28:38Z beach: As it turns out, my effective methods are already called exactly like the generic function is called, and not with a list of arguments to the generic function.  Therefore, it is only a matter of whether to use &REST on the discriminating function and to use APPLY to call the effective methods (general case), OR not to use &REST and to use FUNCALL to call the effective methods (when the generic function takes only required arguments).
2015-09-06T07:30:19Z beach: Using FUNCALL and no &REST is going to be a simple but significant optimization, because it will avoid consing in most important cases.
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2015-09-06T07:50:47Z atgnag: Why do I get warnings every time I use setf?
2015-09-06T07:51:04Z beach: atgnag: You need to be more specific.
2015-09-06T07:51:30Z Shinmera: Probably setfing unbound variables.
2015-09-06T07:51:31Z beach: atgnag: What does the warning say?  What is your implementation?
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2015-09-06T07:52:32Z beach: I am always impressed by the ability of other #lisp participants to understand problems that are insufficiently described.  I myself can't do it.
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2015-09-06T07:52:51Z atgnag: ; caught WARNING:
2015-09-06T07:52:53Z atgnag: ;   undefined variable: COUNTER
2015-09-06T07:53:05Z beach: heh.
2015-09-06T07:53:09Z Shinmera: There you go
2015-09-06T07:53:24Z francogrex: for debugging purposes it would be good to load an asdf system (s) without compiling them. does asdf allow this?
2015-09-06T07:53:29Z beach: atgnag: SETF is not what you use to DEFINE variables.  Only to assign to variables already defined.
2015-09-06T07:53:47Z atgnag: beach: What should I use intead?
2015-09-06T07:53:57Z beach: atgnag: Special variables are defined using DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER etc.  Local variables are created using LET or LET*.
2015-09-06T07:54:09Z atgnag: All right.
2015-09-06T07:54:27Z beach: atgnag: It looks like it's time for you to read an introductory text to Common Lisp.
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2015-09-06T07:56:11Z |3b|: (or to be told that some introductory CL texts oversimplify by using SETF on undefined variables, but you shouldn't actually do that)
2015-09-06T07:56:34Z beach: Such texts should be avoided. :)
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2015-09-06T08:00:10Z francogrex: beach: I've even seen examples in the hyperspecs that use setf on undefined variables!
2015-09-06T08:00:24Z beach: Wow.
2015-09-06T08:00:41Z beach: I don't recommend avoiding the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2015-09-06T08:01:33Z beach: Not to self: Fix such examples in the specification of Common Lisp version 3 (which will be called something different to avoid confusion with existing projects).
2015-09-06T08:02:23Z francogrex: even the first example in the index: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_acons.htm
2015-09-06T08:03:00Z beach: Should definitely be fixed.
2015-09-06T08:03:15Z francogrex: but ok, the hyperspec is not supposed to be an intro text...
2015-09-06T08:03:40Z beach: Still.  The examples should be complete and conforming, in my opinion.
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2015-09-06T08:04:23Z beach: As soon as we have an "annotatable" Common Lisp HyperSpec, we can start marking such examples to be fixed.
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2015-09-06T08:09:12Z atgnag: (LET ((COUNTER 0))
2015-09-06T08:09:14Z atgnag:   (LOOP FOR I FROM 1 TO 4000000
2015-09-06T08:09:16Z atgnag:         DO (IF (EQUALP (MOD (FIB I)) 0)
2015-09-06T08:09:18Z atgnag:                (SETF COUNTER (+ COUNTER (FIB I))))))
2015-09-06T08:10:46Z atgnag: I'm getting an error about invalid number of arguments.
2015-09-06T08:11:13Z francogrex: if
2015-09-06T08:11:18Z atgnag: Oh wait, I see it now.
2015-09-06T08:11:34Z atgnag: It's not if, but mod.
2015-09-06T08:11:42Z Shinmera: francogrex: if can take only two forms.
2015-09-06T08:11:49Z Shinmera: The else is optional.
2015-09-06T08:12:06Z francogrex: yes yes
2015-09-06T08:12:21Z francogrex: atgnag: mod of course
2015-09-06T08:13:00Z francogrex: but replace if with when anyway
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2015-09-06T08:16:18Z beach: atgnag: I was serious about the introductory text.  You don't use EQUALP to compare numbers.  And you don't compare numbers to 0, you use ZEROP.  And you use INCF rather than SETF in cases like this.  And in this case, you don't use COUNTER at all, and instead you use the SUM clause to LOOP.
2015-09-06T08:16:45Z beach: atgnag: So in 4 lines of code, you have at least 4 problems.
2015-09-06T08:17:10Z atgnag: Um… okay.
2015-09-06T08:17:46Z atgnag: I guess the one I had (and didn't finish) sucked. Which one do you suggest?
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2015-09-06T08:19:40Z beach: Me?  I am not suggesting any particular version.
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2015-09-06T08:22:02Z |3b| thinks those are reasonable functions to use in early parts of an introductory text
2015-09-06T08:24:06Z |3b|: though possibly should have gotten to some of those before LOOP
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2015-09-06T08:28:14Z |3b| agrees that those are good suggestions outside that context though
2015-09-06T08:29:12Z atgnag: What happened here? http://i.imgur.com/ahXZCy7.png
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2015-09-06T08:30:36Z |3b|: hard to tell since you scrolled the debugger past the error message
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2015-09-06T08:31:49Z |3b|: clhs evenp
2015-09-06T08:31:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm
2015-09-06T08:31:55Z atgnag: Oops.
2015-09-06T08:32:12Z |3b|: ^ might also be useful
2015-09-06T08:32:38Z atgnag: The value NIL is not of type REAL.
2015-09-06T08:32:41Z atgnag:    [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]
2015-09-06T08:32:52Z atgnag: Oh yeah.
2015-09-06T08:32:58Z |3b|: probably your FIB returns NIL for some input
2015-09-06T08:33:07Z atgnag: Fuck, I actually learned about that before.
2015-09-06T08:33:36Z |3b|: and it looks like you didn't exit the debugger previously, you might want to do that as well (hit q in the debugger window is an easy way)
2015-09-06T08:34:34Z |3b| would also store the value of (fib i) rather than recalculating it
2015-09-06T08:34:58Z atgnag: Yeah, I'll do that.
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2015-09-06T08:41:41Z beach: |3b|: Yes, I agree.  I got a bit carried away.
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2015-09-06T08:42:05Z beach: atgnag: Sorry about that.
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2015-09-06T08:46:57Z beach: atgnag: What is the second argument to MOD supposed to be?
2015-09-06T08:49:26Z atgnag: beach: 2, because I forgot that evenp existed.
2015-09-06T08:50:04Z atgnag: Anyways, where should I put (fib i), so that I don't have to calculate it twice?
2015-09-06T08:50:43Z atgnag: Should I add a variable to the let statement, and setf each time within the loop?
2015-09-06T08:51:00Z beach: (loop for i from 1 to 4000000 for value = (fib i) when (evenp value) sum value)
2015-09-06T08:52:04Z atgnag: Umm…
2015-09-06T08:53:07Z beach: It looks like every third value of FIB is even, so in that case:
2015-09-06T08:53:13Z atgnag: I think I understand that for loop.
2015-09-06T08:53:17Z beach: (loop for i from 2 by 3 sum (fib i))
2015-09-06T08:53:33Z beach: You might want to check that this gives the same result.
2015-09-06T08:53:40Z gabriel_laddel: anyone know offhand how to execute a maxima ast?
2015-09-06T08:53:42Z gabriel_laddel: (macsyma-read-string "ratsimp( (2*x^2 + 3*x + 1) - (x^2 + x^2 - 2*x + 4*x + 1) );")
2015-09-06T08:54:27Z atgnag: Oh, I am dumb. I misread the euler question.
2015-09-06T08:55:21Z gabriel_laddel: ;=> paste.lisp.org/display/154836
2015-09-06T08:55:35Z gabriel_laddel: now I want to 'eval' that, but macsyma doesn't use regular `eval'
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2015-09-06T09:52:11Z gabriel_laddel: To whoever may have been paying attention to my maxima thread - the function I needed was maxima::meval* whose defintion is in .../maxima/src/suprv1.lisp. You can test the "full loop" with (meval* (macsyma-read-string "ratsimp( (2*x^2 + 3*x + 1) - (x^2 + x^2 - 2*x + 4*x + 1) + sin(cos(tan(x^arcsin(x)))) );"))
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2015-09-06T10:23:00Z oleo: ya, meval is different.....
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2015-09-06T10:29:23Z gabriel_laddel: there is also mfuncall, $ev, displa (many thanks to mikhail filonenko for pointing me and many others in the correct direction: http://filonenko-mikhail.blogspot.com/2012/01/embeddable-maxima.html)
2015-09-06T10:30:06Z gabriel_laddel: now to build stumpwm with this
2015-09-06T10:31:08Z gabriel_laddel: And then to set about "unrolling" maxima with all the glories of M-., access to OpenGL, GPU, BLAS, femlisp & MJR_CALC all in the same proc
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2015-09-06T13:07:18Z Xach: ehu: cl-irc?
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2015-09-06T13:17:02Z ehu: xach: creating the 0.9.2 release now.
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2015-09-06T13:23:24Z axion: how do i remove the comma/space after the last element in a format string such as "~{~A, ~}" ?
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2015-09-06T13:25:11Z Xach: axion: use ~^
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2015-09-06T13:25:19Z Xach: e.g. "~{~A~^, ~}"
2015-09-06T13:25:31Z Xach: ehu: thanks!
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2015-09-06T13:25:49Z axion: thanks
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2015-09-06T13:45:27Z ehu: Xach: new release published, but sigs not updated yet.
2015-09-06T13:45:44Z ehu: can you handle out-of-date sigs?
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2015-09-06T13:48:51Z Xach: ehu: Yes
2015-09-06T13:49:03Z ehu: then you should be fine now.
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2015-09-06T14:12:36Z axion: hyperspec says #'DELETE may modify sequence. does this mean there are circumstances where it may not, or is this an implementation choice? if the latter, are there many that choose not to?
2015-09-06T14:14:02Z ehu: Xach: sig updated too, now.
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2015-09-06T14:19:18Z Xach: axion: when the sequence is not a list, probably.
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2015-09-06T14:20:15Z |3b|: axion: implementation choice, though probably doesn't modify anything if nothing is removed
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2015-09-06T14:21:37Z axion: ok
2015-09-06T14:21:54Z |3b|: doesn't look like it is required to give back the original sequence intact even then though
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2015-09-06T18:14:54Z francogrex: hi
2015-09-06T18:15:17Z francogrex: I am forcing an ascii output as such: :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :external-format :ascii
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2015-09-06T18:16:30Z francogrex: is there a way to "automate" the restarts' 0: [OUTPUT-NOTHING    ] Skip output of this character. instead of typing 0 a zillion times?
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2015-09-06T18:17:06Z Xach: francogrex: handler-bind and find-restart and invoke-restart
2015-09-06T18:17:20Z Xach: francogrex: but you could also filter your input so that it has nothing with an inappropriate character code for ascii.
2015-09-06T18:17:42Z francogrex: yes the second option was on my mind...
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2015-09-06T18:19:37Z francogrex: ok
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2015-09-06T18:26:58Z scymtym: francogrex: if you're tying yourself to SBCL anyway, you can also do (alexandria:with-output-to-file (stream "/tmp/foo.txt" :external-format '(:ascii :replacement "")) (write-string "»" stream))
2015-09-06T18:27:10Z scymtym: :replacement "" being the interesting part
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2015-09-06T18:49:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I catch a constraint violation with postmodern?
2015-09-06T18:50:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried using handler-case, and sbcl complained about memory corruption
2015-09-06T18:51:06Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: handler-case is still the thing to use. I don't know, but it seems like the memory corruption could be from something else.
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2015-09-06T18:52:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: hmm...
2015-09-06T18:52:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Everything works fine when I remove the error handling code.
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2015-09-06T18:54:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Let me figure out if I can extract an example that reliably reproduces what I'm observing
2015-09-06T18:55:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Do I have to do some cleanup in the exception handler?
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2015-09-06T19:01:55Z Xach: Memory corruption can happen if you're using foreign libraries, or lisp libraries with optimization settings that aren't very safe. I don't think that's the case with postmodern on either count.
2015-09-06T19:02:02Z Xach: Postmodern uses sockets, but that's about it.
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2015-09-06T19:07:20Z dim: yeah it's a pure CL implementation of PostgreSQL protocol
2015-09-06T19:07:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a reproducible case
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2015-09-06T19:07:42Z francogrex: scymtym thanks it's useful. For the time being I "asciified" the data before output myself by ensuring all char-codes are bewteen 0 and 127 and if not I replace by a space char...
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2015-09-06T19:09:21Z lpaste_: fiddlerwoaroof pasted “Postmodern memory corruption” at http://lpaste.net/140414
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2015-09-06T19:09:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I ran that on a clean image through slime
2015-09-06T19:10:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: oops, pasted a password :)
2015-09-06T19:10:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good thing I don't use valuble passwords for my projects.
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2015-09-06T19:11:45Z cw__: I am experimenting with data analysis from a large Redshift data base using postmodern: Can someone point out tools to use? For example, something similar to R’s data frame; other tools to slice and dice data from SQL queries. I am still at the very beginning. The connection works and I can run SQL queries smoothly. Thanks for any help!
2015-09-06T19:12:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Note that, for some reason postmodern didn't create the unique constraint.  I created it manually through psql
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2015-09-06T19:14:34Z Xach: cw__: I can't think of anything off-the-shelf to do stuff like that.
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2015-09-06T19:17:13Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: the typespec should not have a quote in front of it. i don't think that is causing your error, but it is not a good thing to have there.
2015-09-06T19:19:01Z dim: Xach: working on the pgloader release, hopefully in time for next QL?
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2015-09-06T19:19:08Z Xach: dim: there's time!
2015-09-06T19:19:32Z dim: well now is a good time for me to do it, if it fits in your schedule, all the better ;-)
2015-09-06T19:19:50Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: that paste looks to me like runaway recursion, but I don't know what is causing it. Maybe someone with better eyes and thinking can see.
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2015-09-06T19:31:40Z aeth: What's the difference between (dolist (foo foo-list) (something foo)) and (map nil #'something foo-list) other than the ability to use a goto in the body of dolist? Also dolist's more verbose in my trivial example but slightly less verbose if it's a lambda in the map nil.
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2015-09-06T19:33:00Z aeth: Oh, sorry, map nil is for all sequences. I think mapc is the list-only equivalent (even though it doesn't return nil)?
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2015-09-06T19:33:41Z Xach: aeth: i think you've summed it up
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2015-09-06T19:37:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: for some reason, removing the quote fixed it
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2015-09-06T19:37:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, I guess I should look at the examples more carefully
2015-09-06T19:37:45Z dim: FYI pgloader-latest.tgz is updated with pgloader 3.2.2
2015-09-06T19:37:51Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: ok. something recursed. i don't know chapter and verse enough to recognize why, but I'm sure someone else does.
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2015-09-06T19:38:01Z dim: I'll try and release monthly or abouts too, from now on
2015-09-06T19:38:03Z Xach waves to slyrus 
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2015-09-06T19:42:04Z mprelude: Anyone familiar with cl-mongo? All the examples just show db.use without any auth command, how can I make it auth? (my mongo isnt running on localhost)
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2015-09-06T19:47:20Z Xach is not familiar
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2015-09-06T20:07:51Z dim: release done. I'm quite happy about that, I should release more often really, it's cool ;-)
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2015-09-06T20:29:33Z BlackNegro: fe[nl]ix p_l __main__ _death ``Erik aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth ahungry alchemis7 alex6407 alexherbo2 alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki araujo aretecode arpunk arrsim ASau asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick Can negroes even learn to code?
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2015-09-06T20:29:34Z BlackNegro: jlarocco jlongster joast joga john-mcaleely johs joshe josteink jself jsnell_ jtz Jubb justinmcp jxv kalloc kalzz kanru Karl_Dscc karswell` katco kbtr keen__________14 Khisanth killmaster kini kinslayer kisom` kjak kjeldahl kloeri Can negroes even learn to code?
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2015-09-06T20:29:49Z BlackNegro: jlarocco jlongster joast joga john-mcaleely johs joshe josteink jself jsnell_ jtz Jubb justinmcp jxv kalloc kalzz kanru Karl_Dscc karswell` katco kbtr keen__________14 Khisanth killmaster kini kinslayer kisom` kjak kjeldahl kloeri Can negroes even learn to code?
2015-09-06T20:29:50Z BlackNegro: knobo knobo-net kobain kolko kristof kruhft Kruppe ktx l1x lancetw larme lea lemoinem lepardo les LiamH lieven lispyone loke loke`` lokulin lonjil low-profile loz1 lpaste_ luis` lvh m_zr0_ mach Mandus Can negroes even learn to code?
2015-09-06T20:29:50Z BlackNegro: martinhath marvi mathrick mearnsh micro_ mikaelj minion mishoo misv mjanssen mobius-eng mood moop moredhel mprelude mrSpec MrWoohoo mtd mtl_ musegarden1 nakiya NaNDude narendraj9 Natch Neet newcup NhanH nicdev nightfly nikki93 Can negroes even learn to code?
2015-09-06T20:29:51Z BlackNegro: nisstyre noHue6` nopf norfumpit not_tfl nydel o`connor Ober octavo Oddity oGMo Oladon oleo opcode OrangeShark oskarth otwieracz ozzloy p_l|backup papachan Patzy pchrist pegu` petergil phadthai phf physixer PinealGlandOptic pinterface1 pjb Can negroes even learn to code?
2015-09-06T20:29:51Z BlackNegro: PlasmaStar pok pootler Posterdati prince_j1mmys psy_ PuercoPop pyon qr42 Quadrescence quasisane radioninja radioninja_work ralt ramus_ reb` rebelshrug redline6561 renard_ renopt replcated_ resttime rj-code rme roscoe_t` rotty rtoym russell-- rvchangue_ rvirding Can negroes even learn to code?
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2015-09-06T20:30:16Z MrWoohoo: what kind of racist spams #lisp???
2015-09-06T20:30:40Z Bike: a racist who spams everything else, probably be k lined in a moment
2015-09-06T20:30:48Z Takumo: What kind of person spins up an ec2 instance to spams
2015-09-06T20:30:51Z Takumo: he's already k-lined
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2015-09-06T20:31:18Z tomaw: The hard core antiparentheses people
2015-09-06T20:31:38Z joga: isn't it possible to, like, tell amazon about abuse?
2015-09-06T20:31:46Z kristof: lisp uber alles
2015-09-06T20:32:03Z Takumo: joga: yes, but this probably isn't serious enough
2015-09-06T20:32:11Z joga: yeah I agree since I wouldn't bother anyway
2015-09-06T20:32:33Z Takumo: unless you're using their services to do proper illegal stuff or stuff that would degrate their platform for other users
2015-09-06T20:32:56Z Takumo: they'd rather have someone spin up ec2 instances to spam irc than not have a customer, even if they are just using ec2 to spam irc
2015-09-06T20:33:16Z resttime: What's there to hate about parenthesis? Why #lisp ?
2015-09-06T20:33:25Z resttime: Funny spammers
2015-09-06T20:33:28Z sixyod: that earned a k-line :o
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2015-09-06T20:33:52Z Bike: because they were doing it in other channels, because they are a spammer.
2015-09-06T20:34:55Z Takumo: gah, he's back with another ip and another name in another channel
2015-09-06T20:35:24Z Takumo: would it be against the rules of this channel to make a comment speculating on the dimunitive scale of his genitals?
2015-09-06T20:35:35Z resttime: Spammer should be more creative
2015-09-06T20:35:36Z Xach: Takumo: no need.
2015-09-06T20:35:45Z resttime: If I were to spam I'd try to make a sine wave
2015-09-06T20:35:52Z resttime: (not that I would)
2015-09-06T20:36:00Z Takumo: resttime: vertically?
2015-09-06T20:36:03Z resttime: Yeah
2015-09-06T20:37:04Z Takumo: I'd borrow the system they used back in the days of analogue cinema for audio
2015-09-06T20:37:08Z Takumo: and paste a waveform
2015-09-06T20:37:15Z Takumo: and a link to a webpage that can decode it
2015-09-06T20:38:03Z resttime: Maybe I'm underestimating the spammer, he spammed this channel with a bot he wrote in lisp
2015-09-06T20:38:07Z Takumo: resttime: right hand ones here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg
2015-09-06T20:38:24Z resttime: In the other channels he created the same bot except in different language to spam them
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2015-09-06T20:40:14Z jfe: dang. i thought someone actually had a question for me.
2015-09-06T20:40:21Z Takumo: I don't think its possible to underestimate a spammer
2015-09-06T20:40:22Z jfe craws back into his hole.
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2015-09-06T20:40:42Z jfe *ahem* CRAWLS
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2015-09-06T21:04:42Z wailord: why woudl you even want to hl me
2015-09-06T21:04:45Z wailord: or anyone else
2015-09-06T21:04:52Z wailord: what does that accomplish
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2015-09-06T21:06:51Z mprelude: Anyone here used cl-mongo? I can't work out how to get auth working.
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2015-09-06T21:07:41Z dim: it might be a good sign that you shouldn't be using mongo? ;-)
2015-09-06T21:07:57Z mprelude: dim: mongo isn't the issue, the lack of docs for the lib is ;)
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2015-09-06T21:09:28Z mprelude: The db.auth method always seems to return T, even if I put the wrong creds. And even if I put the right creds, I can't insert or update anything.
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2015-09-06T21:21:24Z mprelude: http://paste2.org/a1mIVKZ8
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2015-09-06T21:23:44Z jfe: are there benefits to using ECL instead of SBCL?
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2015-09-06T21:24:23Z p_l: ECL can be compiled into shared library that can be loaded in other application
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2015-09-06T21:24:40Z p_l: at the very least, ECL can be compiled everywhere there's ANSI C compiler (theoretically)
2015-09-06T21:24:53Z p_l: one day I'll test the latter by making a version on z/OS
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2015-09-06T21:29:11Z mprelude: cl-mongo... http://paste2.org/81bMJwnB -- comparing CLI tool to lisp code...
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2015-09-06T21:38:01Z moredhel: clearing logs post spam
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2015-09-06T21:40:09Z pjb: axion: (delete 1 (list 1 1))   (delete 1 (list 1 2))
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2015-09-06T21:40:29Z pjb: axion: and also, the standard allows (setf (symbol-function 'delete) (symbol-function 'remove)).
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2015-09-06T21:46:35Z axion: thanks
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2015-09-06T21:57:58Z pjb: p_l: or on Plan 9?
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2015-09-06T22:00:59Z otwieracz: Huh.
2015-09-06T22:01:01Z otwieracz: ECL on plan9.
2015-09-06T22:01:07Z otwieracz: That's worth trying.
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2015-09-06T22:02:42Z Xach: Hmm, what's the name of Xof's paper about *features*?
2015-09-06T22:03:16Z cluck: pjb: i'm not sure plan9 cares enough about ansi c
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2015-09-06T22:03:29Z p_l: cluck: ANSI C is covered
2015-09-06T22:03:34Z p_l: ISO89 also
2015-09-06T22:03:40Z p_l: ISO99 not, iirc
2015-09-06T22:03:48Z otwieracz: But using 9c?
2015-09-06T22:03:49Z cluck: or any non native standard for that matter
2015-09-06T22:04:04Z otwieracz: (or what was the name of plan9's C compiler)
2015-09-06T22:04:10Z p_l: 8c should happily compile ECL, but you might need to implement new OS side
2015-09-06T22:04:14Z p_l: or compile with APE
2015-09-06T22:04:23Z otwieracz: What was APE standing for?
2015-09-06T22:04:33Z otwieracz: It came out of my mind.
2015-09-06T22:04:34Z p_l: Almost Posix Environment or something like that
2015-09-06T22:04:40Z cluck: i do recall plan9 has scheme
2015-09-06T22:05:06Z p_l: you could technically cross compile SBCL to plan9 with a little effort
2015-09-06T22:05:16Z p_l: (some OS stuff is different)
2015-09-06T22:05:18Z otwieracz: But this makes no sense.
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2015-09-06T22:05:51Z cluck: p_l: yeah, and thanks to harvey they'll probably have llvm soon
2015-09-06T22:06:05Z otwieracz: SBCL? Or Plan9?
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2015-09-06T22:07:05Z cluck: p_l: actually never mind, llvm was ported in a gsoc now that i think of it, i think
2015-09-06T22:07:23Z otwieracz: plan9 is somehow still developed?
2015-09-06T22:07:59Z p_l: yes
2015-09-06T22:08:10Z p_l: albeit not as heavily as it used to be back in Bell Labs
2015-09-06T22:08:30Z p_l: there was at least one hw company that used plan9 internally (Coraid, the guys behind ATAoverEthernet)
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2015-09-06T22:09:14Z mprelude: Xach: Do you run quicklisp or is that someone else?
2015-09-06T22:09:23Z DoctorWhy is now known as tyrannozarus_001
2015-09-06T22:10:19Z mprelude: Xach: I've found the issue with the cl-mongo library. Mongo changed their default authentication method. I expect I can fork & patch the library (it hasn't been committed to in years), but how would I go about getting the patched version into ql?
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2015-09-06T22:13:06Z Xach: mprelude: i run quicklisp. i don't run cl-mongo. i don't use patched versions, unless there's no way to get the original author to accept the patch or hand over maintenance.
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2015-09-06T22:13:13Z Xach: mprelude: best option is to coordinate with the original author somehow
2015-09-06T22:13:19Z emaczen: with sbcl or CL in general where can I got to learn more about compiler warnings? I'm getting a warning that tells me that a file was compiled without its output file "filename.fasl." Compilation is then aborted saying that it cannot find this .fasl file.
2015-09-06T22:13:20Z Xach: second best option is to adopt it yourself
2015-09-06T22:13:24Z mprelude: Xach: Will see if I can do so.
2015-09-06T22:13:26Z Xach: worst option is i adopt it (wearing my sharplispers hat)
2015-09-06T22:13:38Z Xach: emaczen: that's an asdf error
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2015-09-06T22:13:50Z Xach: emaczen: i don't know how you can figure out how to fix, though, sorry
2015-09-06T22:13:53Z mprelude: Xach: First job is to update the method. Then I'll email the maintainer.
2015-09-06T22:14:20Z emaczen: Xach: Thanks, I'll switch to the ASDF info file then.
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2015-09-06T22:26:13Z mprelude: Anyone know if there's a cl lib that implements scram?
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2015-09-06T22:33:19Z pjb: mprelude: no, but you could port https://github.com/emacsmirror/gnus/blob/master/lisp/sasl-scram-rfc.el
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2015-09-06T22:35:43Z mprelude: pjb: Thanks.
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2015-09-06T22:54:35Z mprelude: lol my head hurts, I remember now why I don't do cryptography
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2015-09-06T23:53:45Z TMitBee: The OS is the libraries of system calls, no?
2015-09-06T23:54:49Z p_l: in a way. It's the operating environment for your applications to run without having to care about each machine's individual configuration as well as providing standard services
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2015-09-07T00:03:48Z PuercoPop: Is there a reason why some people start their file with a in-package cl-user followed by a defpackage + in-packae instead of just cl:defpackage + in-package?
2015-09-07T00:04:19Z pjb: PuercoPop: cl-user:defpackage may be different than cl:defpackage.
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2015-09-07T00:05:34Z mprelude: Canonical way to generate random bytes?
2015-09-07T00:05:43Z pjb: Even starting with (|CL|:|SETF| |CL|:|*READTABLE*| (|CL|:|COPY-READTABLE| |CL|:|NIL|))  doens't prevent the environment to have been setup to circumvent your will.
2015-09-07T00:05:57Z pjb: (random (expt 2 byte-size))
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2015-09-07T00:06:51Z resttime: PuercoPop: I believe it's to ensure that the package symbol gets created  in the proper space when loading the file
2015-09-07T00:07:32Z pjb: PuercoPop: have a look at ibcl.
2015-09-07T00:07:46Z PuercoPop: pjb: I doubt that using a different defpackage than cl:defpackage is their intention
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2015-09-07T00:08:19Z pjb: The package symbols are always interned in the package.
2015-09-07T00:08:22Z mprelude: pjb: ty
2015-09-07T00:08:29Z PuercoPop: resttime: packages are refered by string designators not symbols
2015-09-07T00:08:31Z pjb: Otherwise they wouldn't be the package symbols.
2015-09-07T00:09:47Z resttime: Oh, so you defpackage from somewhere you can in-package from anywhere?
2015-09-07T00:09:48Z PuercoPop: my point was that cl:defpackage would achieve pretty much the same 'level of safety' afaiu, but with less typing. Then again cl is not JS where I have to start every file with a ; just in case.
2015-09-07T00:10:19Z pjb: If what I've said above is not obvious enough, when reading (|CL|:|SETF| |CL|:|*READTABLE*| (|CL|:|COPY-READTABLE| |CL|:|NIL|)), it's the current #\( reader macro that is used, not necessarily the standard one.
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2015-09-07T00:11:24Z PuercoPop: resttime: yes
2015-09-07T00:11:42Z pjb: ASDF is not good enough here.  There are good reasons why you'd want to write your source files WITHOUT a in-package form. This should also be specified in the ASD file.
2015-09-07T00:13:31Z PuercoPop: pjb: has there been a better system than ASDF in the past?
2015-09-07T00:13:40Z pjb: Nope.
2015-09-07T00:13:59Z pjb: There is the load script, but it has its problems too.
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2015-09-07T00:14:56Z pjb: I guess we could do something with :in-order-to clauses.
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2015-09-07T00:22:24Z mprelude: pjb: Working on this... :) Gotta go to bed but got somewhere
2015-09-07T00:22:26Z mprelude: * (cl-scram-sha1:gen-client-initial-message :username "aurum" :nonce (cl-scram-sha1:gen-client-nonce))
2015-09-07T00:22:28Z mprelude: "n,,n=aurum,r=x6uHptrIM6PAFMtmbGCN8uuy0LSnZCww"
2015-09-07T00:23:45Z mprelude: Aaand...
2015-09-07T00:23:47Z mprelude: * (cl-scram-sha1:base64-encode (cl-scram-sha1:gen-client-initial-message :username "aurum" :nonce (cl-scram-sha1:gen-client-nonce)))
2015-09-07T00:23:49Z mprelude: "biwsbj1hdXJ1bSxyPXdaUnF6MnNuUUZ6UVdoNFVJb0RTOGpGampKbkJXUGhx"
2015-09-07T00:23:53Z mprelude: So, I can now generate requests.
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2015-09-07T00:24:35Z mprelude: Ironclad seems to support all of the cryptographic functions I'll need so this should be easy to implement without DIY crypto.
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2015-09-07T00:42:14Z mprelude: Will ask here as it's far more populated than #clnoobs... is there a good way to get a comma separated list like "a=one,b=two,c=three" into an alist? My goto would be regex but if there's a better way (especially one that avoids pulling cl-ppcre when this is all I use it for) I'd prefer that.
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2015-09-07T00:45:32Z Bike: you could use split-sequence.
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2015-09-07T00:46:55Z PuercoPop: mprelude: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154848
2015-09-07T00:47:54Z mprelude: Thanks, split-sequence looks like exactly what I need
2015-09-07T00:48:07Z Bike: it might get messy if you have escape characters and such, though.
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2015-09-07T00:49:26Z mprelude: Yeah maybe messy as one of the strings can include =s :( its base64'd
2015-09-07T00:50:51Z PuercoPop: you could use find in the to split the entry as the first #\= is would be the separator
2015-09-07T00:51:02Z mprelude: Yeah
2015-09-07T00:51:13Z mprelude: I'm going to sleep, will solve tomorrow afternoon. Thanks for all the help.
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2015-09-07T01:36:05Z axion: pjb: i ran into an occurence where delete is not modifying the place, yet the return value shows otherwise
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2015-09-07T01:36:52Z pjb: I provided you with two above.
2015-09-07T01:37:32Z pjb: (delete 1 (list 1 1)) #| --> nil |#
2015-09-07T01:37:51Z pjb: (let ((list (list 1 2))) (values (delete 1 list) list)) #| --> #1=(2) ; (1 . #1#) |#
2015-09-07T01:38:26Z pjb: axion: there's no place to consider with delete, it's a function.
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2015-09-07T01:39:07Z axion: what would be the preferred way to delete in place then?
2015-09-07T01:39:18Z pjb: (setf place (delete element place))
2015-09-07T01:39:26Z pjb: assuming place doesn't have side effects.
2015-09-07T01:39:33Z pjb: Otherwise, (deletef place element) can be used.
2015-09-07T01:39:55Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:deletef
2015-09-07T01:40:02Z pjb: (I hear alexandria has it too).
2015-09-07T01:40:14Z axion: alexandria has a deletef, but i need to pass :key #'name, and couldn't figure out how
2015-09-07T01:40:21Z pillton: axion: I suggest you use different phrasing than "in place".
2015-09-07T01:41:12Z pjb:  (deletef place element :key #'name)
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2015-09-07T02:18:20Z 
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: ccl-logbot daimrod` PlasmaStar SAL9000_ taij33n- PuercoPop pchrist_ anunnaki_ eak_ Shozan jackdani1l nicdev` cmbntr_ loke``` CEnnis91_ |3b|` sepi`` oskarth arpunk ynchromeshs yeticry ipmonger defaultxr harish quazimodo kaleun Zhivago ynniv Niac aap_ smokeink zirman keen__________15 BillyZane2 BitPuffin|osx resttime ajtulloch lispyone AI pjb Ethan- stardiviner felideon isaac_rks bb010g jleija Mon_Ouie Zotan pillton moei jlarocco leafybasil ndrei
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: DeadTrickster eazar001 ryuo__ ebrasca pyon oleo_ kloeri aretecode kristof josteink Jesin antoszka slyrus Patzy not_tfl kobain wglb Karl_Dscc knobo HDurer sjl loz1 psy_ tmtwd petergil jxv echo-area cluck ASau tajjada xristos LiamH papachan sdothum NaNDude theos alexherbo2 scymtym octavo ktx jeremyheiler djinni` musegarden1 dmiles_afk Oladon jcmdln wailord Khisanth physixer DGASAU` wyan MrWoohoo add^_ TDog CodyReichert kalloc selat zacts zerac
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: bobbysmith007 jdz sekrit o`connor bjorkintosh phf arrsim c74d Jubb clog haasn lemoinem dryt pinterface1 vhost- someone sfa j_king Denommus` Mandus kjak les tstc jayne_ Intensity opcode luis` eschulte_ Cthulhux- frankS2 killmaster radioninja_work Ober chu jeadre tmh_ heurist theBlackDragon kolko cyphase nisstyre AntiSpamMeta larme nakiya rtoym kruhft ivan\ Quadrescence srcerer ahungry yang setheus otwieracz bipt __main__ PinealGlandOptic kanru tokik
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: impulse dilated_dinosaur bitwiggler xaxes` sbryant easye minion specbot guiloooo clop Kruppe lokulin joast emuxius atgnag xan_ marvi kisom` alchemis7 loke prince_j1mmys mach christoph_debian abbe troydm decent phadthai bcoburn Xach jsnell_ finnrobi_ kini cibs tomaw fikusz lea zaquest gernika honkfestival spegelref voidlily SilentEcho whartung nydel Natch Grue` flip214 z0d Fleurety sigjuice skrue vert2 Tordek Bike yrdz katco bege yorick rme cross cods
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: torpig dsp_ sellout zickzackv tokenrove yauz s1n4 hyoyoung djh rj-code yeltzooo renard_ stokachu p_l|backup stux|RC-only lpaste_ sshirokov eagleflo oGMo thomas drdo mood micro_ @p_l Colleen H4ns gwyon ecraven Firedancer newcup dlowe @fe[nl]ix eMBee mikaelj mearnsh emma cartwright d4gg4d trig-ger NhanH gz danlentz billstclair codeitagile XachX GGMethos dytrivedi drmeister victor_lowther splittist cataska rvirding alex6407 ThePhoeron edran_ martinhath
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: faheem__ AeroNotix joga housel _death jeaye diginet alms_clozure rvchangue_ ``Erik john-mcaleely lonjil pok Takumo copec brandonz jself failproofshark sivoais jackc- funnel renopt schoppenhauer smull zymurgy kalzz m_zr0_ ft mtl_ epitron EnergyCoffee zyoung lepardo isoraqathedh The_third_man ck_ capitaomorte spacebat nightfly sharkz Tuxedo_ narendraj9 dan64 mjanssen Posterdati ramus_ reb` eli j0ni johs froggey mtd ineiros_ justinmcp l1x scharan
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: fiddlerwoaroof anachrome low-profile quasisane gensym Neet cojy kbtr benaiah tkd superjudge ec\_ lvh vlnx jasom russell-- CrazyEddy moop ski pegu` Subfusc lancetw ircbrowse ralt dim aeth qr42 HDurer_ snits pootler gigetoo SlashLife replcated_ trn lieven farhaven tessier redline6561 moredhel ozzloy joshe ferada samebchase hratsimihah vedwin ggherdov nopf ryankarason kjeldahl axion zbigniew scymtym__ misv sytse dwchandler wizzo Oddity tristero Faed
2015-09-07T02:18:20Z names: White_Flame gabot jfe gendl norfumpit dxtr asedeno
2015-09-07T02:18:35Z axion: yes, but can be any number of lists as input
2015-09-07T02:18:52Z CEnnis91_ is now known as CEnnis91
2015-09-07T02:19:14Z Bike: set-intersection
2015-09-07T02:19:30Z resttime: set-
2015-09-07T02:19:34Z Bike: er, just intersection, sorry.
2015-09-07T02:19:39Z Bike: with reduce.
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2015-09-07T02:22:02Z axion: i'm not quite sure how to use reduce here
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2015-09-07T02:22:47Z Bike: (reduce #'intersection lists)
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2015-09-07T02:23:48Z Bike: (reduce #'intersection (list '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) '(2 4 6 8 10 12 14) '(3 6 9 12 15 18 21))) => (6)
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2015-09-07T02:24:11Z resttime: #'reduce is like cooking an omelet, make sure your ingredients are in a list
2015-09-07T02:24:22Z axion: this is great. thank you
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2015-09-07T02:24:47Z axion: so much of the standard learned in one day, after nearly a decade of lisping
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2015-09-07T02:35:27Z theos: someone said my nick?
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2015-09-07T03:22:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-07T03:22:30Z papachan: still night here
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2015-09-07T03:24:08Z Bike: good continuing progress of local time, everyone
2015-09-07T03:25:20Z pjb: What about people falling down a black hole?  Sure, they have a good continuing progress of local time, but relatively to us, it comes to a halt!
2015-09-07T03:25:39Z beach: You won't find many of them here on IRC.
2015-09-07T03:26:30Z pjb: Perhaps not today, but we have to prepare, soon enough we might be using the IPN.
2015-09-07T03:27:10Z beach: So, [back to topic] Shinmera figured out a way to achieve an "annotatable" Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2015-09-07T03:27:59Z beach: With a browser extension, some JavaScript magic, and a server storing the annotations, he figures it is a small-ish project.
2015-09-07T03:28:46Z beach: He might even do it when he gets the time.
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2015-09-07T03:29:41Z resttime: That sounds neat, like a mini wiki addon
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2015-09-07T03:35:02Z beach: It has to be done in a way that the Common Lisp HyperSpec markup is not modified.
2015-09-07T03:35:11Z beach: So that is what he came up with.
2015-09-07T03:35:36Z jasom: who owns the copyright on the HS? Harlequin?
2015-09-07T03:35:46Z resttime: lispworks i think
2015-09-07T03:35:55Z beach: LispWorks owns the copyright on the HTML markup.
2015-09-07T03:37:02Z jasom: oh, and you can't read it out aloud to a live audience
2015-09-07T03:37:12Z jasom: "Permissions related to performance and to creation of derivative works are expressly NOT granted."
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2015-09-07T03:37:48Z beach: Well, you can read the draft standard out loud.  It will sound the same.
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2015-09-07T03:38:22Z Bike: ot
2015-09-07T03:38:28Z Bike: it's not the same without the stage directions.
2015-09-07T03:38:45Z jasom: I'm also not sure how an annotated version would fail to be a derivative work.
2015-09-07T03:39:06Z beach: If you don't modify the source, there is no problem.
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2015-09-07T03:50:47Z pillton: Do cyclic types pose problems to type inference? e.g. (deftype my-cons () '(or null (cons fixnum my-cons)))
2015-09-07T03:51:40Z Bike: yes, but the usual algorithms are fine with recursive types.
2015-09-07T03:52:20Z Bike: non-disjoint unions and intersections are more of an issue.
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2015-09-07T03:53:55Z pjb: (deftype list-of (element) `(or null (cons ,element (list-of ,element))))
2015-09-07T03:54:33Z pjb: (typep '(1 :a "c") '(list-of integer)) --> infinite loop.
2015-09-07T03:54:44Z pjb: this deftype is not conforming in CL.
2015-09-07T03:55:05Z Bike: yeah, shame deftype is so dumb.
2015-09-07T03:55:09Z pjb: Yes.
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2015-09-07T03:55:34Z pillton: It is strange you get an infinite loop with typep. It must perform type expansion first.
2015-09-07T03:55:40Z Bike: well, yes.
2015-09-07T03:55:51Z Bike: that's how it works. deftype is unsophisticated, it's just a macro definition facility.
2015-09-07T03:56:25Z Bike: and type expansions have to terminate, so you can infer that it's supposed to be strict evaluation, so to speak.
2015-09-07T03:56:45Z Zhivago: At least it doesn't give you false expectations of the CL typesystem.
2015-09-07T03:56:48Z pillton: Yep.
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2015-09-07T03:56:52Z pjb: If the standard had specified lazy expansion instead, perhaps it would have worked.
2015-09-07T03:57:31Z pillton: "The consequences are undefined if the result of fully expanding a type specifier contains any circular structure,"
2015-09-07T03:57:35Z pillton: clhs deftype
2015-09-07T03:57:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm
2015-09-07T03:57:47Z beach: pillton: That's a different constraint.
2015-09-07T03:57:49Z Bike: that's not quite it, yours doesn't have any circular /structure/.
2015-09-07T03:57:55Z pillton: Oh wait. My mistake.
2015-09-07T03:58:04Z Bike: the relevant one is "Recursive expansion of the type specifier returned as the expansion must terminate, including the expansion of type specifiers which are nested within the expansion. "
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2015-09-07T03:58:08Z Bike: very exciting, ain't it.
2015-09-07T03:58:29Z pillton: Yes. I thought circular structure was referring to types, not the compound form.
2015-09-07T03:59:41Z pjb: (deftype list-of (length element) (if (zerop length) 'null `(cons ,element (list-of ,(1- length) ,element))))  #| --> list-of |#
2015-09-07T03:59:43Z pjb: (typep '(1 2 3) '(list-of 3 integer)) #| --> t |#
2015-09-07T03:59:50Z pjb: (typep '(1 "a" 3) '(list-of 3 integer)) #| --> nil |#
2015-09-07T04:00:25Z pjb: This is still powerfull enough. You just need to have a bound on the expansion of your types.
2015-09-07T04:01:05Z beach: pillton: Here "circular structure" refers to the type specifier.  There is no compound form involved.
2015-09-07T04:01:24Z Bike: just like how you write all your functions with their ultimate stack depth predefined
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2015-09-07T04:02:13Z pjb: (deftype list-of (length element) (if (zerop length) 'null `(or null  (cons ,element (list-of ,(1- length) ,element))))) #| --> list-of |# (typep '(1) '(list-of 1000 integer)) #| --> t |#
2015-09-07T04:02:27Z pjb: so actually, s/length/max-length/
2015-09-07T04:02:48Z pillton: beach: It means you can't do #1=`(cons t #1#) doesn't it?
2015-09-07T04:03:07Z beach: pillton: Yes, but it is not a form.
2015-09-07T04:03:22Z beach: A form is an expression meant to be evaluated.
2015-09-07T04:03:34Z beach: This is a type specifier, so it's not a form.  It's just data.
2015-09-07T04:04:35Z pillton: Ok. My apologies. In the context above, "compound form" meant compound type specifier.
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2015-09-07T04:04:54Z beach: I see.
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2015-09-07T04:21:55Z pillton: Bike: You said "deftype is unsophisticated", what does a sophisticated deftype look like?
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2015-09-07T04:23:04Z Bike: hm, if nothing else, something more like functions to deftype's macros. but the boring way would be something like haskell, i guess. something enough for type variables and maybe qualifiers
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2015-09-07T04:27:33Z Ober: pillton see clojure deftype
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2015-09-07T04:30:26Z pillton: Ok thanks.
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2015-09-07T04:56:17Z loke: Hello ober. http://static.skynetblogs.be/media/62032/dyn007_original_300_241_gif_2664055_2e324a4d2420d72781a2c6ca3bb3ede5.gif
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2015-09-07T07:11:50Z PuercoPop: jasom: I think you miss-attributing your work to fukamachi here: https://github.com/jasom/clack-handler-mongrel2/blob/master/mongrel2.lisp#L4
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2015-09-07T08:23:53Z guicho: hi guys, I am searching for a reliable statistics library which supports Wilcoxon sign-rank test or other nonparametric tests. Any recommendation?
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2015-09-07T08:29:30Z flip214: guicho: wilcox.test() in R?  sorry, don't know any CL implementation.
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2015-09-07T08:30:05Z flip214: but using FFI you should be able to use it, in some way or other...
2015-09-07T08:30:30Z jfe: has anyone considered replacing v8 with ECL in chrome?
2015-09-07T08:30:45Z flip214: https://common-lisp.net/project/rcl/
2015-09-07T08:30:49Z flip214: guicho: ^^
2015-09-07T08:31:29Z flip214: guicho: perhaps you can find that in https://github.com/blindglobe/common-lisp-stat, too
2015-09-07T08:35:21Z guicho: flip214: thanks for the info. Rcl seems reliable, the only consideration is API. I will read the doc further.
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2015-09-07T08:38:37Z guicho: the awkward moment the apt package name for R is not just R but R-BASE...
2015-09-07T08:39:20Z guicho:  /to find/i
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2015-09-07T08:47:18Z flip214: guicho: I already used that, some time in the past...
2015-09-07T08:47:35Z flip214: and for a simple vector of numerical data there's no conversion overhead IIRC, too
2015-09-07T08:48:32Z guicho: The example worked for me. thanks!
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2015-09-07T08:52:13Z jackdaniel: jfe: I'm not sure what do you mean by that (v8 is js engine, right?), but there is out-of-tree port of ECL to NaCL
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2015-09-07T08:53:36Z guicho: I used to think this kind of old project doesn't even build, but it builds and works, seems maintained. another surprise for me.
2015-09-07T08:53:42Z jackdaniel: jfe: search on github for agenau user, or just find link in newest ECL Quarterly (it's in the chapter "ECL future")
2015-09-07T08:54:07Z jackdaniel: guicho: standard didn't change, so if it was written portably it is guaranteed to work
2015-09-07T08:54:16Z jfe: jackdaniel: i mean using CL as a DOM-manipulation language instead of javascript.
2015-09-07T08:55:43Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if one can do that from NaCL. Using CL as DOM-manipulation language is a nice idea (I'm thinking about how nice it would be to have such a thing), but it wouldn't be portable. Better solution would be to hook CL to some kind of plugin
2015-09-07T08:55:52Z jackdaniel: which might be installed on already compiled browser
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2015-09-07T08:56:15Z jackdaniel: unless plugins can't manipulate DOM, but I think it's unlikely
2015-09-07T08:56:24Z guicho: jackdaniel: I am sure CL spec is reliable, but I thought the connection to R could have been broken, or it could use old UFFI, both of which was not actually the case.
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2015-09-07T08:56:45Z jackdaniel: guicho: oh, you mean ffi. My bad then, I just misunderstood what you meant
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2015-09-07T09:24:56Z guicho: flip214: hmm when you used RCL, did something like (r "t.test" '(2 2 3) '(1 1 3) :paired t) worked?
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2015-09-07T09:27:04Z guicho: it seems successfully encoded into R strings, but it emits error (due to the language settings, I translated the error message)  ;R! found error in the following t.test.default(c(2L, 2L, 3L), c(1L, 1L, 3L), paired = TRUE) : ;R!   object 'paired' not found
2015-09-07T09:27:12Z flip214: guicho: seems so http://paste.lisp.org/display/154866
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2015-09-07T09:28:21Z flip214: r-base-core=3.2.2-1, rcl from quicklisp right now
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2015-09-07T09:28:58Z guicho: R> (r "R.Version")
2015-09-07T09:28:58Z guicho: ((:|nickname| "Frisbee Sailing") (:|version.string| "R version 3.0.2 (2013-09-25)")
2015-09-07T09:28:58Z guicho:  (:|language| "R") (:|svn rev| "63987") (:|day| "25") (:|month| "09") (:|year| "2013")
2015-09-07T09:28:58Z guicho:  (:|minor| "0.2") (:|major| "3") (:|status| "") (:|system| "x86_64, linux-gnu") (:|os| "linux-gnu")
2015-09-07T09:28:58Z guicho:  (:|arch| "x86_64") (:|platform| "x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"))
2015-09-07T09:29:16Z guicho: seems a little older. RCL is from the recent version.
2015-09-07T09:29:39Z guicho: I will try the updated R.
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2015-09-07T09:34:37Z guicho: it worked if I run the same command outside SLIME.
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2015-09-07T10:01:35Z mprelude: Xach: What's the process for getting a lib in ql?
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2015-09-07T10:12:17Z pjb: (ql:quickload :lib)
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2015-09-07T10:13:07Z pjb: "into" --> https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html
2015-09-07T10:13:10Z mprelude: pjb: I misworded. I mean for submitting my lib for others to get with ql
2015-09-07T10:13:12Z mprelude: Thanks
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2015-09-07T12:02:06Z Xach: mprelude: the suspense is killing me!
2015-09-07T12:02:27Z mprelude: Xach: Gotta do dayjob stuff, hoping to have this done tonight or tomorrow.
2015-09-07T12:02:40Z mprelude: C++ not as fun as lisp :(
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2015-09-07T12:15:41Z jackdaniel: Given C++ fun at all, it catches up. You have to write approprietly more code to make it equally fun as Lisp.
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2015-09-07T12:20:30Z jackdaniel: s/C++ fun/C++ *is* fun/
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2015-09-07T12:36:36Z mprelude: C++ can be fun. C++ on a 20 year old codebase cannot.
2015-09-07T12:37:21Z |3b|: sure it can, if the 20 year old code isn't important :p
2015-09-07T12:37:29Z mprelude: I wish :P
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2015-09-07T12:40:00Z Xach has a black hat with silver custom embroidering: "C++", purchased in 1995
2015-09-07T12:40:07Z Xach was young & foolish
2015-09-07T12:40:19Z flip214: and, what did change?   ;P
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2015-09-07T12:40:39Z Xach is old & foolish now
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2015-09-07T12:41:08Z Guthur: Xach: Do you think it would be possible to define some standard protocol for testing that if a project followed it QL would run and then provide data to the QL users as some build report
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2015-09-07T12:41:23Z flip214: Xach: with all due respect, if you start seeing that your kids' teachers are younger than yourself, *then* you feel old ;)
2015-09-07T12:41:44Z Xach: flip214: my kids' physicians are younger than me.
2015-09-07T12:41:57Z Xach: Guthur: yes, definitely!
2015-09-07T12:41:59Z flip214  is tempted to use the phrase "grasshopper", but won't, because Xach has quite a bit more Lisp experience ;/
2015-09-07T12:42:19Z Xach: Guthur: in fact, someone is working on something like that already, but it is incomplete
2015-09-07T12:42:31Z Shinmera: Guthur: If I understand your idea correctly, you can currently get a good estimate by loading your library in a clean SBCL.
2015-09-07T12:42:32Z flip214: well, your journal photo looks like you're 25 or something.
2015-09-07T12:42:35Z Guthur: oh cool, any links
2015-09-07T12:42:51Z flip214: but I guess this is just "the older the photo the younger the people"
2015-09-07T12:42:59Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/980
2015-09-07T12:43:39Z Xach: Shinmera, Guthur: you also must make sure it does not reference quicklisp itself, and that it has :description, :author, and :license in the system file.
2015-09-07T12:45:21Z pjb: Photos are always younger than people.
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2015-09-07T12:45:49Z jackdaniel: Xach: are small libraries (ie 6-8 functions) accepted? I'm working on translation system for multilingual applications and it's basically that small. I think it might be useful for someone
2015-09-07T12:46:06Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I've submitted libraries with a single function before.
2015-09-07T12:46:17Z Guthur: Xach: very interesting and certainly in the direction i was thinking
2015-09-07T12:46:19Z Shinmera: (trivial-arguments)
2015-09-07T12:46:26Z flip214: pjb: not if it's an ultrasound picture, because it's not usual to talk about negative age (but the child isn't born yet ;)
2015-09-07T12:46:32Z jackdaniel: ok, then I'll clean it and document on friday and will submit before next week
2015-09-07T12:46:43Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-07T12:46:54Z Xach: Guthur: it also has to rely only on libraries already in quicklisp
2015-09-07T12:46:56Z jackdaniel: *the* next week
2015-09-07T12:47:13Z Xach: OR be preceded by requests to add prerequisites
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2015-09-07T12:50:35Z Guthur: Xach: thanks, I'm going to reach out to the author of that project-submission to bounce some ideas
2015-09-07T12:51:05Z pjb: flip214: younger works with negative ages too: (<  -0.2 -0.1)
2015-09-07T12:52:14Z flip214: pjb: but an ultrasound picture will be already some time old when the baby has just been born, ie. "a few weeks" is older than "0 years"
2015-09-07T12:53:11Z pjb: flip214: unless you move the simulation slightly to the future: check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADHp_mz4vI4
2015-09-07T12:54:04Z pjb: flip214: yes, but you're comparing dates in different referentials.
2015-09-07T12:54:18Z pjb: You should make a change of coordinate system to match and compare those dates.
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2015-09-07T13:01:10Z flip214: pjb: thanks, read the book already...
2015-09-07T13:02:08Z flip214: and no. the coordinate systems are "fixed" by popular opinion.... playing around with those, we can just start over defining words and their meanings as well ;)
2015-09-07T13:03:04Z Firedancer: I think redefining words is the #1 past-time for the technical minded
2015-09-07T13:03:32Z flip214: Firedancer: *defining* words, yes. "redefining" existing vocabulary is double-plus good.
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2015-09-07T13:06:27Z pjb: flip214: happily, we don't care about the popular opinion.  Otherwise, (AND a b) would give strange results...
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2015-09-07T13:14:34Z flip214: pjb: why? *That's* "popular opinion" within (LOGIC ∪ MATHEMATICS) ...
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2015-09-07T13:17:27Z attila_lendvai: random info: we have two threaded web services running on SBCL, and they are both approaching 2 years of uptime. both are open in the wild, although not used by too many users. but one of them have received a lot of C-c C-c.
2015-09-07T13:17:54Z attila_lendvai: SBCL came quite a long way regarding threaded stability in the past few years
2015-09-07T13:19:14Z flip214: attila_lendvai: well, at least stability was good two years ago .... the current implementation might have bugs that'd need a year to find ;/
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2015-09-07T13:20:06Z attila_lendvai: hehh :) well, I assume stability is on a mostly constant rise with small regressions
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2015-09-07T13:21:45Z flip214: well, I think that's overly optimistic.... my guess would've been the other way around ("bit rot")
2015-09-07T13:22:26Z flip214: even well-maintained projects like SBCL will mostly just keep up... once some part got bug-free, there's only one direction to go
2015-09-07T13:24:03Z attila_lendvai: when we started our lisp workshop about 6-8 years ago, it was a long way from stability when threads were around
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2015-09-07T13:51:27Z Xach pulls out hair over github.io feed issue
2015-09-07T13:52:19Z Shinmera: Still getting inexplicable access errors?
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2015-09-07T13:54:32Z Xach: No error. It returns a 302 with no Location. It's something to do with how this ancient feedparser.py library submits the request in conjunction with my use of it. If I use feedparser directly it works fine.
2015-09-07T13:55:16Z Xach: I could probably just manually proxy it to an URL on my own server
2015-09-07T13:55:27Z Xach: That would be more rewarding than digging through ancient python
2015-09-07T13:56:15Z Shinmera: The only thing I can think of is the User-Agent string.
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2015-09-07T15:15:19Z Xach: It's a little more subtle, I just don't know how.
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2015-09-07T15:19:22Z Shinmera: The other thing that came to mind is the Accept header. Other than that HTTP is supposedly stateless, so I can't really come up with anything except for what's in the headers.
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2015-09-07T15:22:08Z jsnell_: a trace with tcpdump / wireshark would be the easiest way to debug that
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2015-09-07T15:23:19Z flip214: not if it's https....
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2015-09-07T16:05:20Z Xach: jsnell_: thanks. tcpdump shows that there *is* a Location header but it's not percolating up to my code for some reason.
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2015-09-07T16:10:53Z Xach must reach for tcpdump more quickly next time
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2015-09-07T16:31:01Z Xof: flip214: that's one reason why we have quite stringent thread-safety tests in our test suite
2015-09-07T16:31:15Z Xof: which we encourage users to run on their machines during the freeze period every month
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2015-09-07T16:42:46Z axion: with this macro, how can i splice in a single slot definition `(name :initform ',name) outside of the loop? http://paste.lisp.org/display/154883
2015-09-07T16:44:17Z Xach: cons?
2015-09-07T16:44:41Z Xach: e.g. (cons `(name :initform ',name) (loop for ...))
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2015-09-07T16:48:05Z |3b|: or ((name :initform ',name) ,@(loop ...))
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2015-09-07T16:49:35Z axion: thanks
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2015-09-07T17:06:20Z Xach: so many options
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2015-09-07T17:08:53Z Shinmera: Don't forget LIST*
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2015-09-07T17:15:19Z shka: i don't know what you are talking about but destructuring bind probabbly can do this as well ;-)
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2015-09-07T17:24:56Z mprelude: pjb: Still looking at the problem from yesterday using split-sequence.
2015-09-07T17:25:10Z mprelude: (mapcar (lambda (asso) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\= asso :count 2)) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\, "a=one,b=two===,c=three" ))
2015-09-07T17:25:22Z mprelude: 1. How can I preserve the '===' on the end of the b value?
2015-09-07T17:25:52Z mprelude: 2. How can I make an alist or a hash instead of a list of lists?
2015-09-07T17:26:03Z mprelude: I can probably solve 2 quite easily
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2015-09-07T17:44:05Z PuercoPop: mprelude: I mixed up find with position yesterday: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154848#1
2015-09-07T17:44:14Z PuercoPop: that should cover your use case
2015-09-07T17:45:57Z mprelude: Thanks PuercoPop, I had started messing with loop
2015-09-07T17:46:04Z mprelude: This is perfect
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2015-09-07T17:48:04Z PuercoPop: keep it mind, it would be better than when serializing data avoid using what can be part of the value as a delimiter.
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2015-09-07T17:48:36Z mprelude: PuercoPop: Sadly not an option, I'm implementing a standard.
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2015-09-07T17:51:01Z PuercoPop: Well nothing is perfect :'(. I like what git does, using 'NULL' as a delimiter
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2015-09-07T18:16:12Z pjb: mprelude: You can detect the "" and append a separator for each one of them. (mapcar (lambda (asso) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\= asso)) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\, "a=one,b=two===,c=three" ))  #| --> (("a" "one") ("b" "two" "" "" "") ("c" "three")) |#
2015-09-07T18:16:21Z pjb: mprelude: or you can split the string yourself.
2015-09-07T18:16:36Z pjb: mprelude: using let, position, if and subseq.
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2015-09-07T18:48:31Z AeroNotix: what's everyone working on?
2015-09-07T18:50:32Z jackdaniel cleans his "translate" abstraction layer to publish it
2015-09-07T18:51:08Z mprelude: Pulling my hair out... http://paste2.org/96j0zYCJ
2015-09-07T18:51:51Z mprelude: I'm probably just Doing It WrongTM, but the docs don't explain why I'm Doing It WrongTM.
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2015-09-07T18:53:23Z mprelude: Any ideas why this simple assoc call wont work? :(
2015-09-07T18:54:11Z eudoxia: :test #'equal
2015-09-07T18:54:28Z eudoxia: as in, (assoc key list :test #'equal)
2015-09-07T18:54:36Z mprelude: Worked... why? :D
2015-09-07T18:54:55Z Shinmera: because strings are not necessarily EQL.
2015-09-07T18:54:58Z eudoxia: assoc by default uses eql as the comparison function
2015-09-07T18:55:04Z Shinmera: clhs eql
2015-09-07T18:55:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2015-09-07T18:55:24Z eudoxia: because typically association lists use numbers or symbols, which are efficiently eql when they're equal
2015-09-07T18:55:32Z mprelude: Ahh
2015-09-07T18:55:35Z mprelude: Well then...
2015-09-07T18:55:44Z mprelude: That was about half an hour lost on Google.
2015-09-07T18:56:02Z eudoxia: for string keys you have to use the equal function, for more complex keys (e.g. CLOS objects or structures), your own test function
2015-09-07T18:56:19Z Shinmera: structs can be compared by EQUALP
2015-09-07T18:56:31Z eudoxia: oh, i didn't know that
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2015-09-07T20:04:15Z mprelude: Anyone here knowledgeable with ironclad?
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2015-09-07T20:07:47Z mprelude: Most implementations of HMAC in my experience take multiple parameters to make the digest, but ironclad's just takes 1. I have little knowledge of what happens behind the scenes, but I have to do HMAC(password, "Client Key") -- how can I get this behavior on ironclad?
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2015-09-07T20:09:33Z PuercoPop: mprelude: I may be miss-remembering but I think you just do successive calls to update-digest
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2015-09-07T20:12:20Z Arathnim: mprelude: I think you're looking for update-hmac.  The final digest can be obtained by hmac-digest.
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2015-09-07T20:13:14Z Arathnim: It's all in the hmac section of ironclad's docs.
2015-09-07T20:15:02Z mprelude: (ironclad:update-hmac (ironclad:make-hmac (ironclad:ascii-string-to-byte-array "aaaa") :sha1) (ironclad:ascii-string-to-byte-array "Client Key"))
2015-09-07T20:15:05Z mprelude: Something like that?
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2015-09-07T20:18:19Z Arathnim: Yeah.
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2015-09-07T21:25:18Z jasom: PuercoPop: thanks
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2015-09-07T21:46:19Z PuercoPop: jasom: np, Thanks for sharing the mongrel2 handler!
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2015-09-07T21:47:24Z jasom: PuercoPop: there are still a few things that are incomplete, and some information that mongrel2 doesn't pass that clack wants.  Fortunately as a contributor to mongrel2 I can fix that :)
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2015-09-07T21:48:43Z PuercoPop: a CL backend for ragel wouldn't be a bad idea neither :)
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2015-09-07T22:09:48Z PuercoPop: All the sequence functions find/postion/remove I can recall, take items as the search pattern. Are there any that take subsequences? apropos hints to the answer is no.
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2015-09-07T22:10:05Z Xach: PuercoPop: search
2015-09-07T22:11:12Z PuercoPop: Xach: perfect! I did "seq" and "sub" to no avail. Thanks
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2015-09-07T22:15:45Z Xach: no problem
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2015-09-07T22:21:43Z greanbeen: lol You all are bandwagoners.
2015-09-07T22:21:50Z greanbeen: SICP is absolute rubbish.
2015-09-07T22:22:05Z AeroNotix: greanbeen: wow, your argument is so compelling.
2015-09-07T22:22:11Z greanbeen: I mean, I'm sure the content is great, but the presentation of that content is oh-so bad.
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2015-09-07T22:23:17Z jasom: PuercoPop: I think there is a CL backend for ragel already, but I might be wrong
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2015-09-07T22:23:22Z greanbeen: Abelson and Sussman (Abelson much more so) are obviously autistic, the former obviously lacking in social and presentation skills (and he's obviously the one who wrote most of the book).
2015-09-07T22:23:41Z jasom: PuercoPop: but I'm wrong
2015-09-07T22:24:16Z jasom: greanbeen: if you're going to troll, you might want to troll the correct channel; SICP is only tangentially related to common lisp
2015-09-07T22:24:40Z greanbeen: But still related. *smh*
2015-09-07T22:25:09Z AeroNotix: greanbeen: do you have a more coherent point to make?
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2015-09-07T22:25:45Z greanbeen: AeroNotix: Do you have anything of substance to post?
2015-09-07T22:26:14Z jasom: PuercoPop: in any case, you are correct that a lisp backend for ragel might be useful.
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2015-09-07T22:26:47Z jasom: though little of the mongrel2 code would be usable in lisp as the .rl files have inline c
2015-09-07T22:27:36Z AeroNotix: greanbeen: ah, you are a troll. OK.
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2015-09-07T22:28:25Z greanbeen: greanbeen: Hoping aboard the troll branding wagon now? Mmkay, I take that as a 'no'.
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2015-09-07T22:29:20Z greanbeen: Do not ping me if you have nothing of substance to contribute.
2015-09-07T22:29:30Z Xach: greanbeen: Go away.
2015-09-07T22:29:43Z greanbeen: Why?
2015-09-07T22:30:46Z Xach: greanbeen: Because your discussion is off-topic and unwelcome.
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2015-09-07T22:34:44Z AeroNotix: I love the trolls in programming channels
2015-09-07T22:34:59Z AeroNotix: it's one thing to troll on the internet, another thing entirely to pick a fight with a bunch of nerds on the internet.
2015-09-07T22:35:08Z AeroNotix: especially for a language like Lisp
2015-09-07T22:35:09Z AeroNotix: I just love it
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2015-09-07T22:36:59Z PuercoPop: I've never come upon one. Then again the information I found on ragel was a couple of papers. When I read about mongrel I thought "cool one xSGI to rule them all."
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2015-09-07T22:39:44Z jasom: PuercoPop: you're right that there isn't a lisp backend for it.  It wouldn't be too terrible to write.  Someone bolted on an ml backend, for example.
2015-09-07T22:40:07Z jasom: a ragel file could easily translate nearly directly into a prog
2015-09-07T22:40:49Z jasom: Languages without goto need a bit of extra work (e.g. the Java backend)
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2015-09-07T23:10:51Z binghe: Hi Lispers, do you know any working English grammar parser in Common Lisp? I'm trying to use the "unification grammar" in paiprolog package, but I wonder if there's a more professional package in Quicklisp or anywhere else. Thanks.
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2015-09-07T23:13:16Z jasom: binghe: there are two that I was able to get to work in quicklisp; I don't recall their names though
2015-09-07T23:13:27Z jasom: and they are fairly old-school I think
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2015-09-07T23:14:36Z PuercoPop: binghe: have you seen this? https://github.com/kraison/nlp/blob/master/grammar.lisp
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2015-09-07T23:20:33Z binghe: PuercoPop: no, I didn't know it before. It looks very interesting. Thanks.
2015-09-07T23:20:36Z mprelude: This is what I'm working on (not in a working state): https://github.com/mprelude/cl-scram
2015-09-07T23:22:33Z mprelude: Going to bed. If anyone feels like helping me debug something, load it up and try to run...
2015-09-07T23:22:42Z mprelude: (cl-scram:gen-client-final-message :password "test" :client-nonce "x6uHptrIM6PAFMtmbGCN8uuy0LSnZCww" :client-initial-message "n,,n=username,r=x6uHptrIM6PAFMtmbGCN8uuy0LSnZCww" :server-response "r=x6uHptrIM6PAFMtmbGCN8uuy0LSnZCwwx6uHptrIM6PAFMtmbGCN8uuy0LSnZCww,s=Vdptv0j/N6fs2qtVADc1Xg==,i=8192")
2015-09-07T23:22:45Z binghe: mprelude: I think we're doing different things. I want to parse some legal text and convert to RuleML XML files. Any way, thanks.
2015-09-07T23:23:15Z mprelude: On that note, are there any interpreters which have more useful error messages than SBCL? It seems to give quite cryptic and un-useful messages.
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2015-09-07T23:24:54Z jasom: mprelude: clozureCL is sometimes better, sometimes worse
2015-09-07T23:25:26Z axion: SBCL is known for its verbosity to make debugging easy
2015-09-07T23:25:44Z mprelude: I like sbcl's backtraces, I wish it showed one with every error.
2015-09-07T23:26:15Z axion: it helps to compile everything with a decent debug level
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2015-09-07T23:57:55Z Ober looks for some log parsing libs
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2015-09-08T00:00:49Z CodyReichert: I remembering seeing a nice one just the other day, I'll have to remember the name of it..
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2015-09-08T00:26:55Z doesthiswork: does the "State of the Common Lisp Ecosystem, 2015" article match what you folks think?
2015-09-08T00:30:33Z CodyReichert: I think it's a good article and well thought out, but I don't (always) agree with the consolidation he links to: http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html
2015-09-08T00:31:17Z PuercoPop: doesthiswork: It is a long article, people are bound to disagree with some parts. This are my 2cs regarding it: https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/a0229030c9532f8c7336
2015-09-08T00:31:18Z CodyReichert: However, most of the libraries in that article are probably the ones you should be using :)
2015-09-08T00:32:30Z PuercoPop: CodyReichert: Hey I saw you pushed qi today. I wanted to ask you how does it overlap with quicklisp? Is the main idea to make system versions easy to lock to using a manifest?
2015-09-08T00:32:35Z doesthiswork: thank you
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2015-09-08T00:37:16Z CodyReichert: PuercoPop: Cool. And yeah that's pretty much it. It can work alongside quicklisp (and will use it's packages when available), but does not require it. The main goal is to be able to: 1) Specificy versions for dependencies (this gets messy with transitive dependencies, but it's possible). 2) Be able to use libraries not in Quicklisp or Qi (git/tar). 3) Have project-local dependencies.
2015-09-08T00:39:46Z PuercoPop: Doesn't asdf take care of 2? Good Luck on qi. I'll keep an eye on it. It is an area where CL could use work.
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2015-09-08T00:43:37Z Xach: CodyReichert: have you seen qlot?
2015-09-08T00:43:47Z Xach: I'm not sure that it's solving the same problems, but it has some similarities
2015-09-08T00:44:04Z CodyReichert: AFAIK you can, but it's limited (ie, not even https only http). And thanks! Definitely a fun project, but still quite a ways to go. Hopefully others will find it useful as I build out more.
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2015-09-08T00:55:05Z CodyReichert: Xach: I have seen it (and used it!) - definitely similar, and for a similar problem. I think the approach and long-term goals are different, though.
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2015-09-08T00:55:41Z CodyReichert: Oh and thanks for posting it :)
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2015-09-08T05:06:22Z jasom: CodyReichert: fwiw I'm aidenn0 on reddit (the one who suggested extending ASDF's syntax).  I know it's doable, I don't have pointers off the top of my head to do it though.
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2015-09-08T05:48:37Z CodyReichert: jasom: I'm actually look at that right now. I think I found what I need; subclassing an existing asdf component: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Creating-new-component-types.html
2015-09-08T05:49:48Z CodyReichert: But i'm just now looking at it, so haven't got it just yet. Having it in the asd file would be the best option, though.
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2015-09-08T06:48:10Z kami: Good morning, #lisp.
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2015-09-08T06:52:47Z jackdaniel: good morning, kami
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2015-09-08T09:08:15Z loke: Any of you guys used clack? It seems to be ridculously low level. It doesn't even parse the request parameters for me.
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2015-09-08T09:09:59Z jackdaniel: loke: clack is a metaframework, or portability layer on top of different http servers - there are a few actual frameworks build on top of clack
2015-09-08T09:11:07Z loke: jackdaniel: I know. But in this case I am only using clack because I want to use the websocket-driver that sits on top of it
2015-09-08T09:11:38Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-09-08T09:11:40Z loke: The rest of the application uses Hunchentoot, but websocket-driver can't run on top of it, so I need a separate server for it, using clack
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2015-09-08T09:12:14Z loke: So all I really need to do is to parse the URL (which is accessible from the request environment in clack, but the query string is unparsed)
2015-09-08T09:12:26Z loke: Is there a parser for the request string? Puri can't do it.
2015-09-08T09:12:35Z Shinmera: If you just need a websocket, there's hunchensocket.
2015-09-08T09:12:43Z loke: Shinmera: really?
2015-09-08T09:12:54Z jackdaniel: loke: there is also quri (but I don't know if it can do that)
2015-09-08T09:12:58Z loke: Oh. I did not know that.
2015-09-08T09:13:08Z Shinmera: loke: https://github.com/capitaomorte/hunchensocket
2015-09-08T09:13:27Z loke: That said, websocket-driver is probably higher performance?
2015-09-08T09:13:58Z Shinmera: I can't say.
2015-09-08T09:15:52Z Shinmera: You can be the first to benchmark! :)
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2015-09-08T10:28:43Z Vityok: how do people deal with decoding errors caused by invalid octets in text input streams? - for example, when a log file contains invalid octets from a failing application
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2015-09-08T10:31:06Z jackdaniel: Vityok: you can set handler which replaces them with some generic character
2015-09-08T10:31:47Z scymtym: Vityok: when using SBCL, one option is to specify :external-format (:utf-8 :replacement "?") or similar to replace invalid octet sequences with some string. i'm sure other implementation have something similar
2015-09-08T10:32:31Z loke: Vityok: If you want that level of control, you can also use cl-iconv
2015-09-08T10:33:06Z loke: Vityok: It has restarts that allows you to control the replacement character at the point of error
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2015-09-08T10:37:17Z Vityok: scymtym, loke: thanks, using :replacement keyword indeed works, but it replaces a whole line instead of just a character in SBCL
2015-09-08T10:38:08Z Vityok: Clozure CL requires a property list as :external-format
2015-09-08T10:39:22Z jackdaniel: Vityok: (handler-case (read-log) (encoding-error (character) #\?)) ; or whatever encoding-error is called
2015-09-08T10:39:51Z Vityok: jackdaniel: I believe it should be decoding-error
2015-09-08T10:39:56Z jackdaniel: right
2015-09-08T10:40:07Z loke: I implemented the condition handling in cl-iconv so obviously I'm bisaed, but it has better error handling than most alternatives. :-)
2015-09-08T10:40:10Z jackdaniel: also sbcl will work if you'll read char-by-char, not line-by-line
2015-09-08T10:40:16Z Vityok: and it happens that different implementations have different ideas how to deal with it
2015-09-08T10:40:50Z Vityok: actually, I am writing a blog post about this "topic" and just wanted to make sure that I don't write stupid stuff there
2015-09-08T10:41:34Z Vityok: the solution that I have found is implemented in the :ascii-strings package that comes as a part of :cl-string-match quicklisp library
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2015-09-08T10:42:50Z Vityok: the line-reader there is tailored to deal with "ascii" encoded text files and it avoids decoding errors + allows to substitute different characters on the fly
2015-09-08T10:43:09Z Vityok: plust it is slightly faster than the standard read-line on SBCL
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2015-09-08T10:47:21Z scymtym: Vityok: can you paste the example in which SBCL replaces the whole line? for me echo -e 'a\nb»c\nd'> /tmp/bla.txt, (alexandria:with-input-from-file (s "/tmp/bla.txt" :external-format '(:ascii :replacement "?")) (values (read-line s) (read-line s) (read-line s))) => "a", "b?c", "d"
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2015-09-08T10:53:00Z Vityok: scymtym: sorry, it looks like you were right after all
2015-09-08T10:54:29Z scymtym: Vityok: no need to apologize. i didn't want to point out an error you made or something. i just wanted to know whether there is a bug in SBCL. sorry if it seemed otherwise
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2015-09-08T11:31:38Z |3b|: guess its a good thing i switched computers, didn't realize these bindings depended so much on patched cffi on other machine :/
2015-09-08T11:32:51Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: why patched ?
2015-09-08T11:33:34Z |3b| was trying to fix things but gave up, apparently left some of the fixes that did work there
2015-09-08T11:35:42Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474631 in particular
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2015-09-08T13:09:46Z mood: loke: Clack can parse request parameters for you if you use clack.request (which is there for compatibility with Clack v1). It uses quri under the hood for GET, and HTTP-Body for POST.
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2015-09-08T13:16:58Z Vityok: So, I've finished writing the blog post about different ways to read a file line by line:  https://lispnews.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/reading-a-file-line-by-line-revisited/ it is now different that I wanted it to be
2015-09-08T13:17:03Z Vityok: feedback is welcome
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2015-09-08T13:24:19Z |3b| wouldn't say the same /will be/ reported, since the other implementation (or even sbcl) might have a different default encoding, or handle errors differently
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2015-09-08T13:26:58Z varjag: so
2015-09-08T13:27:10Z varjag: which gnuplot library people here use
2015-09-08T13:30:45Z flip214: "library"? paste to STDIN, and/or use R via RCL I have done ...
2015-09-08T13:31:02Z |3b|: also, might benchmark READ-LINE reading from a stream with iso8859-1 or other 8-bit encoding
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2015-09-08T13:32:38Z Vityok: |3b|: good idea
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2015-09-08T13:32:49Z jackdaniel: "almost 10 times more ... then any other laternatives", given Clozure has infinite loop, we have 10x infinity :p
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2015-09-08T13:33:22Z Vityok: jackdaniel: it will be fixed soon
2015-09-08T13:33:50Z jackdaniel: I think it would be nice to compare at least sbcl / ccl / ecl / abcl / clisp support in more "tabular" manner
2015-09-08T13:34:02Z jackdaniel: like "fails" n / y / n / y / y
2015-09-08T13:34:12Z |3b| would probably also use with-open-file in the first example, just avoid repeating bad code (at least, bad outside the context of a book that hasn't introduced w-o-f yet)
2015-09-08T13:34:14Z Vityok: and a bar chart
2015-09-08T13:34:15Z jackdaniel: "time" 1.28ms / 10s / … /
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2015-09-08T13:35:05Z jackdaniel: regarding libraries, it would be nice to present also available licenses
2015-09-08T13:35:06Z Vityok: sbcl with :iso8859-1 now runs in 1.258 ms vs 1.0008 for the fastest
2015-09-08T13:35:20Z jackdaniel: s/available/their/
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2015-09-08T13:36:42Z jackdaniel: also babel could be added for comparisons
2015-09-08T13:37:17Z Vityok: unpublished the post until it is improved
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2015-09-08T13:37:52Z Vityok: thanks for reviewing and for your ideas
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2015-09-08T14:45:46Z ehu: jackdaniel: should I create a group for your translate project?
2015-09-08T14:46:05Z ehu: or maybe a full project on common-lisp.net?
2015-09-08T14:46:13Z ehu: (e.g. with a public_html etc)
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2015-09-08T14:53:09Z pjb: Vityok: I deal with decoding errors caused by invalid octets in text input stream by locating the programmer who wrote the code generating this text, and hitting him on the head with the 7 Unicode standards!
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2015-09-08T14:53:59Z pjb: s/7/8/ sorry.
2015-09-08T14:56:05Z pjb: (for reference, 6.1 is 692-page paperback, so you have a lot of leverage there).
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2015-09-08T15:08:01Z jackdaniel: ehu: no need for full group, since it is small abstraction layer, but if you could create project/translate with public_html directory it would be great
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2015-09-08T15:08:26Z jackdaniel: thanks (was about to ask you after finishing documentation and doing actual push)
2015-09-08T15:09:16Z ehu: jackdaniel: no problem. I noticed while browsing around with my admin account.
2015-09-08T15:10:21Z ehu: I'll create the translate directory with the lowest effort I know how,  if the project is this small :-)
2015-09-08T15:10:34Z jackdaniel: great :p
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2015-09-08T15:28:52Z Vityok: pjb: what if the logs are captured from a system that ran applications with corrupt heap? crashing, dumping random characters caused by other malfunctions?
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2015-09-08T15:37:27Z blackwolf: anyone use cl-opengl and cl-freetype2?  I'm looking for an example of rendering a glyph via freetype2:do-string-render and gl:tex-image-2d.
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2015-09-08T15:38:11Z blackwolf: (or anything that will put a freetype glyph on the screen, for that matter)
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2015-09-08T15:42:47Z blackwolf: n/m - finally got google to turn something up: <https://ideone.com/jHFL5>
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2015-09-08T15:56:01Z pjb: Vityok: You're assuming crashes are not the responsibility of some human.  Be it a programmer or a micro-electronician?
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2015-09-08T15:57:06Z pjb: Vityok: but granted, you can ask what to do once you've had your quota of exercise for today.
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2015-09-08T16:00:28Z |3b|: pjb: you are assuming the log wasn't part of the process of detecting and/or diagnosing the crash by said human
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2015-09-08T16:03:33Z jlarocco_work:  #sbcl
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2015-09-08T16:04:41Z jackdaniel: ehu: or you may just redirect  common-lisp.net/project/translate to /home/dkochmanski/public_html/translate and I'll just work from there
2015-09-08T16:04:53Z jackdaniel: if it's more convenient/ easier
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2015-09-08T16:09:02Z ehu: jackdaniel: ok. I'll check what's fastest/easiest.
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2015-09-08T16:15:06Z pjb: |3b|: good point.
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2015-09-08T16:15:49Z Vityok: |3b|: actually the read-ascii-string (hello pjb ) wasn't working as expected on Clozure CL.
2015-09-08T16:16:23Z Vityok: so yes, being able to deal with corrupt logs is a precondition to debug and fix crashing applications. No need to excercise.
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2015-09-08T16:18:40Z downloadico: Hello!  What is the "best" way to write output to the bit bucket?  I have some code that uses QuickLisp to load some libraries and I don't want to see the information about loading those libraries.  Should I use (with-open-file (*standard-output* "/dev/null" ... ) ... ) or is there something more standard to do?
2015-09-08T16:19:10Z |3b|: clhs make-broadcast-stream
2015-09-08T16:19:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_bro.htm
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2015-09-08T16:19:59Z |3b|: ^ with no arguments makes a stream you can write to that just ignores it
2015-09-08T16:20:23Z downloadico: Thanks!
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2015-09-08T16:32:35Z PuercoPop: downloadico: quickload takes a silent key argument, so
2015-09-08T16:32:44Z PuercoPop: (ql:quickload :foo :silent t)
2015-09-08T16:33:29Z flip214: :silent :night
2015-09-08T16:34:39Z downloadico: Thanks PuercoPop!
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2015-09-08T16:50:33Z Fare: Ahem, is anyone willing to preview/proofread ch. 5 of my blog: https://github.com/Ngnghm/ngnghm.github.io/blob/master/_src/posts/5005-05-05-chapter-5.md ?
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2015-09-08T16:55:42Z jackdaniel: Fare: my english isn't good enough to proofread anything, but I'll gladly read this chapter, I really enjoy this serie :-)
2015-09-08T16:56:01Z Fare: renamed: make that https://github.com/Ngnghm/ngnghm.github.io/blob/master/_src/posts/2015-09-08-chapter-5.md
2015-09-08T16:56:19Z pjb: minion: memo for Vityok: either the data is binary or it's well encoded text.  Taking binary data as well encoded text is a typing error.  Typing errors can come either from the reader, using the wrong type (why don't you use a binary stream?), or from the writer, generating the data of the wrong type (hence the unicode standard hiting the head of the writer).
2015-09-08T16:56:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Vityok when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-08T16:56:34Z Fare: jackdaniel, thanks. I tried the double-wait, btw, and it still has the race condition.
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2015-09-08T16:58:17Z jackdaniel: hm, as wrote in issue thread, it's undoubtely a bug, but I have no particular clue how it can leak. I'll give it another try on friday
2015-09-08T16:58:28Z Fare: thank you.
2015-09-08T16:58:39Z Fare: I'll commit a change that does a single wait with t
2015-09-08T16:59:07Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks
2015-09-08T16:59:08Z Fare: shall I also disable this code and revert to force-shell t until you fix it in ECL?
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2015-09-08T16:59:23Z Fare: or should I assume that ECL will fix it before the next release of ASDF ?
2015-09-08T16:59:37Z Fare: I believe ASDF is ripe for an anticipated 3.1.6 release.
2015-09-08T16:59:50Z Fare: just due to the amoutn of bug fixes
2015-09-08T16:59:57Z Fare: (we were hoping to jump to 3.2)
2015-09-08T17:00:26Z jackdaniel: it's your call, whatever you consider better option. If you could wait till saturday, then we'll know for sure
2015-09-08T17:01:37Z Fare: OK. I won't disable it for now, but if I release ASDF before you make a fix, I'll try to remember to disable it.
2015-09-08T17:01:56Z Fare: (will there be a way to detect a fixed version of ECL?)
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2015-09-08T17:02:36Z jackdaniel: maybe by lisp-implementation-version?
2015-09-08T17:02:43Z Fare: you tell me :-)
2015-09-08T17:03:35Z Fare: (version<= "16.0.1" (lisp-implementation-version)) is fine with me... as long as lisp-implementation-version is guaranteed to follow ASDF conventions.
2015-09-08T17:03:56Z jackdaniel: what are asdf conventions? (I've decided to follow autotools suggestion)
2015-09-08T17:04:09Z jackdaniel: ASDF°
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2015-09-08T17:04:17Z Fare: [0-9]+([.][0-9]+)*
2015-09-08T17:04:51Z Fare: ^[0-9]+([.][0-9]+)*$
2015-09-08T17:05:08Z jackdaniel: yes, that's for sure. But I can't guarantee that I'll be able to fix this bug.
2015-09-08T17:05:41Z Fare: makes sense.
2015-09-08T17:05:51Z jackdaniel: I've got to go (guests came) - take care \o
2015-09-08T17:06:30Z Fare: I hate heisenbugs.
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2015-09-08T17:59:45Z fiddlerwoaroof-m says hi
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2015-09-08T18:01:42Z fidd-mezzano: Ping?
2015-09-08T18:02:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oops, the mezzano IRC client is confusion
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2015-09-08T18:04:37Z Quadresce: not a false fact
2015-09-08T18:05:17Z flip214: but is it decidably true?
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2015-09-08T18:06:48Z Quadresce: i mean why not~
2015-09-08T18:07:12Z flip214: because Gödel?
2015-09-08T18:07:26Z flip214: Or Escher.
2015-09-08T18:07:29Z Quadresce: no
2015-09-08T18:07:30Z flip214: Perhaps even Bach! ;)
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2015-09-08T18:08:54Z thenextaynounamu: Hi... I don't want to start a flame war! So if you don't have something good to say don't reply. I have been using VIM for about 5 years now... I am very comfortable with if and very productive! I have tried Emacs but  VIM is more productive for me because it is ENGRAINED! Is there anybody who has a good vim setup that integrates well with Lisp? Evil mode is also not a solution for me. Any help would be greatly appreciate
2015-09-08T18:09:21Z flip214: thenextaynounamu: slimv.
2015-09-08T18:09:29Z flip214: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531
2015-09-08T18:09:37Z flip214: or use a mercurial checkout.
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2015-09-08T18:10:08Z flip214: sorry, gotta go... can answer questions again in ~12hours, if there are any.
2015-09-08T18:10:09Z thenextaynounamu: I will look into it thanks! I suppose there is a git repo as well!
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2015-09-08T18:10:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: slimv is a little quirky here and there, but it's a much better programming environment than most other programming languages have.
2015-09-08T18:10:30Z thenextaynounamu: Ok thanks!
2015-09-08T18:12:07Z thenextaynounamu: Any other suggestions... I want to try as much as I can -- to see what works best.
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2015-09-08T18:12:45Z flip214: thenextaynounamu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154906
2015-09-08T18:12:55Z flip214: F2 eval's and stores the current form
2015-09-08T18:13:10Z flip214: F3 evals the current form, and sends the stored form too
2015-09-08T18:13:15Z sjl: thenextaynounamu: I used slimv for a while but found it too quirky.  now I use a few simple mappings with neovim and use a repl inside it
2015-09-08T18:13:17Z flip214: so F2 on some test expression
2015-09-08T18:13:29Z flip214: then F3 on the functions you debug until the result is what you want
2015-09-08T18:13:35Z sjl: I have thought about writing an nrepl server in common lisp and trying to get fireplace.vim working with it, but haven't had the time
2015-09-08T18:13:54Z flip214: sjl: good idea. please note that there's a cl library for neovim, too!
2015-09-08T18:14:06Z flip214: using the RPC interface of neovim...
2015-09-08T18:14:10Z sjl: oh nice
2015-09-08T18:14:17Z sjl: oh wait
2015-09-08T18:14:21Z flip214: that was one of my next wishes, although I fear I won't have time for that
2015-09-08T18:14:23Z sjl: this is to write vim plugins in lisp?
2015-09-08T18:14:30Z flip214: that too
2015-09-08T18:14:52Z flip214: you can have eg. sbcl connect to swank to another lisp, and "control" vim via the rpc
2015-09-08T18:15:01Z sjl: hm
2015-09-08T18:15:04Z flip214: only a small vimscript layer to pass keypresses etc.
2015-09-08T18:15:17Z sjl: I mean I basically want slimv, but in a form that doesn't break all the time
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2015-09-08T18:15:34Z flip214: I even thought about running slime in an emacs lisp interpreter (via LUA) within neovim, directly
2015-09-08T18:15:35Z sjl: fireplace is more vimmy, but requires nrepl
2015-09-08T18:15:47Z flip214: slimv works fine for me... what does break for you?
2015-09-08T18:15:56Z flip214: sorry, am away now.
2015-09-08T18:16:05Z sjl: it's been a year or two since I last used it, but the repl would constantly get into weird broken states
2015-09-08T18:16:10Z sjl: same with the debugger, etc
2015-09-08T18:16:44Z sjl: plus it suffers from vanilla vim's interprocess communication limitations
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2015-09-08T18:17:04Z sjl: it could probably be improved in nvim, but the codebase is... "hairy"
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2015-09-08T18:17:35Z sjl: I looked at writing an nrepl server for CL but nrepl is a clojure thing so there's basically no docs
2015-09-08T18:17:44Z sjl: (on the protocol/implementing a server)
2015-09-08T18:18:09Z thenextaynounamu: @flip214 and @sjl... can you share your dotfiles... I may pick up some useful stuff there!
2015-09-08T18:18:31Z sjl: thenextaynounamu: https://bitbucket.org/sjl/dotfiles/src abandon all hope ye who enter here
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2015-09-08T18:18:52Z sjl: ><((°> wc -l ~/.vimrc
2015-09-08T18:18:54Z sjl:     2674 /Users/sjl/.vimrc
2015-09-08T18:18:55Z sjl: it's fine
2015-09-08T18:19:29Z thenextaynounamu: yes the nvim code is as jou say to "hairy", but I am getting off topic! Thanks for the help I will check if out!
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2015-09-08T18:20:46Z thenextaynounamu: I know a bit of vimscript but not enough to write a plugin like that for nvim!
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2015-09-08T19:06:02Z francogrex: clisp: (FIND-CLASS 'FIXNUM) => FIND-CLASS: FIXNUM does not name a class
2015-09-08T19:06:08Z francogrex: wtf?
2015-09-08T19:06:30Z Xof: wtfdyswtf?
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2015-09-08T19:07:30Z Xof: "Many but not all of the predefined type specifiers have a corresponding class with the same proper name as the type. These type specifiers are listed in Figure 4-8."
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2015-09-08T19:09:52Z Shinmera: clhs fixnum
2015-09-08T19:09:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_fixnum.htm
2015-09-08T19:10:01Z Shinmera: See that it says "Type FIXNUM"
2015-09-08T19:10:04Z Shinmera: clhs integer
2015-09-08T19:10:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_intege.htm
2015-09-08T19:10:15Z Shinmera: See that it says "System Class INTEGER"
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2015-09-08T19:10:53Z jasom: sjl, flip214: emacs has asynchronous buffers as a first-class abstraction, getting it right in vim is *really* hard.  I ended up giving up and using emcas with evil-mode
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2015-09-08T19:11:23Z sjl: yeah getting it right in vim is impossible.  I have hope for neovim, but it's still really new
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2015-09-08T19:11:34Z sjl: I try evil about once a year and always end up giving up within a day
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2015-09-08T19:12:31Z jasom: neovim is a *huge* step in the right direction, but it's still a bit of a pain to do something like the slime-fancy REPL where you have a buffer both accepting user input and showing remote output
2015-09-08T19:12:49Z jasom: I have confidence that neovim is flexible enough that someone can write a library to manage that though
2015-09-08T19:13:25Z antoszka: sjl: Try spacemacs, it's about as much of vim as you can get in an emacs ;)
2015-09-08T19:13:40Z antoszka: sjl: And it's got a nicely integrated slime layer.
2015-09-08T19:13:50Z sjl: yeah.  I have considered something like, when you go into insert mode in a neovim repl buffer it opens a split beneath the repl that's just a separate buffer with ft=lisp, with a keymap to "send to repl and close this"
2015-09-08T19:14:20Z sjl: so you can edit your expr in a real vim lisp buffer, then send it to the repl
2015-09-08T19:14:21Z jasom: I do wish that we could replace slime/swank with something less strongly coupled.  It's really a single program split into two parts rather than a client/server using a well established protocol
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2015-09-08T19:15:59Z jasom: but swank has so much knowledge baked into the code, that replacing it is non-trivial
2015-09-08T19:16:23Z francogrex: does not make sense. if one cannot use (find-class 'fixnum) then one cannot also write: (defmethod node ((index fixnum) ...
2015-09-08T19:17:39Z sjl: jasom: yeah.  I think nrepl is the clojure community's version, and it does seem less tightly coupled, in principle
2015-09-08T19:17:57Z sjl: in practice clojure people never document anything so the protocol is locked in the brains of the nrepl implementors
2015-09-08T19:18:14Z jasom: francogrex: fixnum is not required by the standard
2015-09-08T19:18:15Z sjl: maybe some day I'll reverse engineer it
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2015-09-08T19:19:37Z jasom: francogrex: so (defmethod node ((index fixnum)) ...) is not required to work.
2015-09-08T19:20:00Z Xach: it is not required to be a system class
2015-09-08T19:20:17Z jasom: And if it's not a system class, you're not allowed to define it, right?
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2015-09-08T19:20:42Z jasom: (assuming fixnum is from the cl package)
2015-09-08T19:20:46Z Xach: right
2015-09-08T19:20:46Z warweasle: Is there a good javascript compiler in Lisp?
2015-09-08T19:20:56Z Xach: warweasle: "js" is interesting to me.
2015-09-08T19:21:09Z warweasle: Xach: cl-js?
2015-09-08T19:21:24Z jasom: warweasle: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
2015-09-08T19:21:26Z Xach: warweasle: the project is called just "js"
2015-09-08T19:21:29Z Xach: https://github.com/akapav/js
2015-09-08T19:21:35Z Xach: that's the one I mean. same as jasom's link.
2015-09-08T19:21:51Z Xach: oh, sorry. cl-js is the system name.
2015-09-08T19:22:02Z Xach: i can't keep it straight.
2015-09-08T19:23:32Z jasom: I think mozilla did a referrence implementation in MCL too
2015-09-08T19:23:56Z jasom: http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js2/semantics/  <-- there it is.  cl-js will almost certainly generate better code though.
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2015-09-08T19:24:23Z warweasle: jasom: Well, it failed trying to compile ammo.js.
2015-09-08T19:24:31Z PuercoPop: is there something like boundp for 'places'? I want to check if an accessor is bound.
2015-09-08T19:24:47Z warweasle: which is a bullet library port.
2015-09-08T19:24:55Z warweasle: It was worth a try, however.
2015-09-08T19:25:10Z Xach: PuercoPop: no
2015-09-08T19:25:18Z jasom: PuercoPop: I don't think there's anything like boundp for lexical bindings even.
2015-09-08T19:25:24Z Xach: warweasle: how did it fail?
2015-09-08T19:25:48Z warweasle: Xach: Unexpected token ';', expected 'WHILE'. (line 19, character 58322)
2015-09-08T19:25:49Z warweasle:    [Condition of type PARSE-JS:JS-PARSE-ERROR]
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2015-09-08T19:27:10Z Xach: warweasle: darn.
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2015-09-08T19:27:21Z jasom: warweasle: either a bug in parse-js or a bug in emscripten
2015-09-08T19:27:37Z PuercoPop: hmm, then I can either slot-boundp or gensym a sigil.
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2015-09-08T20:11:21Z warweasle: Talk to you all later.
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2015-09-08T20:17:02Z ghost_runner: What did SICP do for *YOU*?
2015-09-08T20:17:32Z ghost_runner: I ask because it seems a lot of Lispers recommend the book having not read it themselves, out of mere bandwagoning.
2015-09-08T20:18:14Z z0d: it's about computer science
2015-09-08T20:18:28Z z0d: not necessarily about Lisp/Scheme
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2015-09-08T20:18:32Z Xach: "greanbeen" from yesterday is back for more trolling.
2015-09-08T20:18:38Z Xach: ghost_runner: Go away, and don't come back.
2015-09-08T20:18:53Z ghost_runner: z0d: Yes, I know that much.
2015-09-08T20:19:16Z failproofshark: i thought summer ended
2015-09-08T20:20:00Z ghost_runner: I thought grade school had started up again myself, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
2015-09-08T20:20:14Z failproofshark: ghost_runner: clearly
2015-09-08T20:20:30Z ghost_runner: Very clearly.
2015-09-08T20:21:09Z ghost_runner: I reckon I'll just ask elsewhere.
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2015-09-08T20:27:55Z Xach: One of the few trolls that leaves when asked.
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2015-09-08T20:30:15Z DeadTrickster: I wonder why someone would want to troll here?
2015-09-08T20:30:53Z DeadTrickster: maybe he really wants to know :-)
2015-09-08T20:31:23Z dwchandler: don't fall into that trap ;)
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2015-09-08T20:32:35Z francogrex: while debugging a package (cl-bayesnet) I traced an error to this call: (apply #'aref #0A#(0.7D0 0.3D0 0.7D0 0.3D0 0.7D0 0.3D0 0.6D0) '(0 0 0))
2015-09-08T20:32:48Z Xach: DeadTrickster: you can see the history from "greenbean" and "snatch" in the logs. it is not sincere curiosity.
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2015-09-08T20:34:36Z Cthulhux-: \o/
2015-09-08T20:34:37Z Cthulhux-: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ReleaseNotes/1.11
2015-09-08T20:34:50Z Cthulhux-: IPv6!
2015-09-08T20:34:56Z Bicyclidine: clhs #a
2015-09-08T20:34:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm
2015-09-08T20:35:06Z Bicyclidine: so, typo?
2015-09-08T20:35:46Z Bicyclidine: or i guess a zero dimensional array with a one-dimensional array as its only elemnt, which is pretty weir
2015-09-08T20:35:49Z Bicyclidine: d
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2015-09-08T20:38:13Z DeadTrickster: anyone used https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit how it feels?
2015-09-08T20:38:29Z Xach: DeadTrickster: loke may have some info
2015-09-08T20:39:17Z Bicyclidine: (aref #0a4) => 4. fascinating.
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2015-09-08T20:40:16Z DeadTrickster: Xach, have you seen him on #lisp? Also https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.amqp still there and I still can't build it :-(
2015-09-08T20:40:35Z Xach: DeadTrickster: he is quite active on #lisp in his time zone
2015-09-08T20:40:42Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I know, I just discovered that a couple of months ago, but it makes sense as the degenerative case
2015-09-08T20:40:43Z Xach: which is at the opposite of the USA, I think
2015-09-08T20:41:09Z Bicyclidine: jasom: it does. still kinda weird.
2015-09-08T20:41:22Z DeadTrickster: Xach, like China or Australia?
2015-09-08T20:41:28Z Xach: DeadTrickster: something like that
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2015-09-08T20:41:50Z jasom: DeadTrickster: singapore IIRC
2015-09-08T20:42:16Z DeadTrickster: cool, thanks
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2015-09-08T20:56:57Z Ober: when doing a join on bordeaux/pcall of all the workers/threads you've registered, getting a invalid-array-index-error index 262144 our of bounce, for (simple-array (unsigned-byte 64) (262144) should be nonnegative and <262144. Is this a case of a dangling reference to a dead thread in the list?
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2015-09-08T21:16:43Z pjb: francogrex: don't get misled by the fact that some implementations have as an extension a FIXNUM class.  It's not conforming to rely on it.
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2015-09-08T21:19:47Z francogrex: pjb: it appears so.
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2015-09-08T21:20:00Z pjb: PuercoPop: the only places that can be unbound are CLOS slots. there's slot-boundp and slot-makunbound.
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2015-09-08T21:24:23Z francogrex: for asdf 'experts', for debugging purposes, is it possible to load an asdf system without having it compiled first?
2015-09-08T21:26:06Z pjb: use the load-source-op operation.
2015-09-08T21:26:33Z pjb: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-source-op :split-sequence)
2015-09-08T21:26:53Z mprelude: Really noob question, but how do I convert ascii->binary?
2015-09-08T21:27:44Z pjb: mprelude: using com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code
2015-09-08T21:27:52Z Bicyclidine: or char-code, usually.
2015-09-08T21:28:13Z pjb: Only after having verified at run-time that it maps the ascii encoding.
2015-09-08T21:28:26Z francogrex: ok pjb. Thanks
2015-09-08T21:28:36Z mprelude: SCRAM is a horrible RFC
2015-09-08T21:28:41Z mprelude: Just gonna throw that out there
2015-09-08T21:29:25Z Bicyclidine: safety control rod axe man?
2015-09-08T21:30:10Z pjb: So: you can indeed write: (when (and (loop for i from 0 to 127 always (char= (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:code-ascii i) (code-char i))) (loop for c across com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:*ascii-characters* always (= (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code c) (char-code c))))  (char-code ch))  instead of (char-code ch).
2015-09-08T21:30:25Z pjb: assuming ch ins in com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:*ascii-characters* in the first place.
2015-09-08T21:30:37Z pjb: But I find it much simplier to just write (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code ch).
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2015-09-08T21:37:20Z pjb: mprelude: the point is that when implementing protocols, I much prefer to do the decoding explicitely myself than rely on the language.  This way, your protocol layer won't break silently when you port your program.
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2015-09-08T21:41:38Z jasom: mprelude: completely OT, but what is SCRAM supposed to do that SRP doesn't?
2015-09-08T21:43:11Z jasom: mprelude: ah, found the answer; at the tiem SCRAM was written SRP was patent encumbered
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2015-09-08T21:46:29Z mprelude: pjb: Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with a) the protocol or b) the language to know *I'm* doing that right.
2015-09-08T21:47:14Z mprelude: https://www.github.com/mprelude/cl-scram -- This is the WIP I have, but it's generating the wrong response, probably because of a failed conversion or wrong conversion.
2015-09-08T21:47:45Z mprelude: http://paste2.org/U4MHvxkX
2015-09-08T21:47:51Z mprelude: Basic explanation of the issue
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2015-09-08T21:51:05Z mprelude: Wonder if someone more familiar can see what I'm doing wrong, but it seems like very few people are familiar with both the lang and the rfc.
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2015-09-08T21:52:48Z mprelude: the issue is in src/scram.lisp, gen-client-final-message function
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2015-09-08T22:01:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there something like an ORM for S-Expressions?
2015-09-08T22:02:01Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: what do you mean?
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2015-09-08T22:02:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, a way to define a schema for an S-Expression and automatically map it onto the appropriate tables in a database
2015-09-08T22:03:03Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: something like https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane or https://github.com/fukamachi/integral ?
2015-09-08T22:03:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm thinking of something like an ORM, except that it doesn't map objects to a database but S-Expressions of a known type
2015-09-08T22:04:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not really, those are just ordinary ORMs, as far as I can tell.
2015-09-08T22:04:48Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: well there is no type in lisp called an "s-expression" do you mean a tree of cons-cells?
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2015-09-08T22:05:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to be able to do something like this: (schematize ((:title text) (:phone-number text) &rest (tags '(text))) and have it automatically generate the appropriate tables and foreign keys.
2015-09-08T22:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, I'd run (store '("Some thing" "333-222-4444" "whatever" "something else"))
2015-09-08T22:06:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Obviously, there'd be schema names and such worked into it.
2015-09-08T22:07:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I haven't really worked out all the details of how it would work, I just thought it up recently and wondered if there was anythign like it already
2015-09-08T22:09:27Z Fare: there are plenty of CL ORMs.
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2015-09-08T22:10:48Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: you need one table per type of atom you want, plus one table for cons cells.
2015-09-08T22:10:54Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: then storing sexps is trivial.
2015-09-08T22:11:20Z jasom: I don't see how your example is significantly different than (deftable use () (title :type text) (phone-number :type text) (tags :type multiset))
2015-09-08T22:11:33Z jasom: which would be a rough translation into crane
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2015-09-08T22:16:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: well, one difference would be that you could store any appropriately structured list without having to first create an instance of the appropriate CLOS class
2015-09-08T22:16:57Z Fare: I worked on one at ITA — not that I recommend that anyone should use it, unless you specifically want Oracle support.
2015-09-08T22:17:09Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: so it saves you a single make-instance call?
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2015-09-08T22:18:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: maybe that would be the only advantage of what I'm describing, I haven't really thought it through.
2015-09-08T22:18:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: My idea would be to make something that's more like a shorthand syntax for sql queries necessary to store and load the lists.
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2015-09-08T22:19:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Than something that maps between two different ways of modelling data.
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2015-09-08T22:20:38Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I could see something like that working.  Perhaps Fare can comment on how using his was?
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2015-09-08T22:21:51Z Fare: QUAKE (source available in the qitab quux tarball, though not in a very usable state) was a classic CLOS-based ORM.
2015-09-08T22:22:23Z Fare: in a with-transaction, you create or modify a bunch of records.
2015-09-08T22:23:02Z Fare: and at the end it it does the magic sql queries to commit all that
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2015-09-08T22:30:07Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BJ7
2015-09-08T22:30:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: @Fare is that here: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab
2015-09-08T22:30:45Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: now, of course, you'd have to implement a garbage collector on those tables :-)
2015-09-08T22:31:13Z pjb: The easiest would be a copying garbage collector.  Just take your root set and copy it to new tables.
2015-09-08T22:32:28Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: of course, instead genid incrementing a lisp counter, you would use a sql sequence.
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2015-09-08T22:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I was thinking that it basically map a lambda-list onto each row of the table, with &rest args standing in for referred to by a foreign key and &optional args standing in for nullable columns.
2015-09-08T22:37:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, your code helped me realize that you don't necessarily need to declare the types of the various items in the list, just generate a bunch of prefixed tables.
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2015-09-08T22:39:16Z mprelude: Which nosql databases have supported drivers?
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2015-09-08T22:53:12Z pillton: Last night I encountered some differences in the way implementations handle EQL types. http://paste.lisp.org/display/154916
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2015-09-08T22:55:35Z pillton: My (possibly incorrect) mental model of EQL types is that (subtypep `(eql ,x) some-type) is equivalent to (typep x some-type).
2015-09-08T22:55:59Z Bicyclidine: that's correct, but subtypep is allowed to be really fucking stupid.
2015-09-08T22:56:56Z pillton: After reading the hyperpsec entry on EQL type specifiers it seems that an implementation may be required construct a type representing x.
2015-09-08T22:57:07Z pillton: required to*
2015-09-08T22:57:20Z Bicyclidine: subtypep's entry explains that it's allowed to give up on eql specifiers (god knows why)
2015-09-08T22:57:24Z pillton: Which is not possible for arbitrary objects.
2015-09-08T22:57:28Z pillton: Oh.
2015-09-08T22:57:30Z Bicyclidine: probably sbcl sees a satisfies type and says fuck that.
2015-09-08T22:57:35Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what you mean "construct a type".
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2015-09-08T22:58:16Z pillton: clhs eql
2015-09-08T22:58:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2015-09-08T22:58:29Z Bicyclidine: yes, i have the type specifier entry open. it's like two sentences though.
2015-09-08T22:58:39Z pillton: "Represents the type of all x for which (eql object x) is true."
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2015-09-08T22:59:34Z Bicyclidine: yes... nothing about constructing types.
2015-09-08T23:00:21Z Bicyclidine: i can't think of any circumstance in which (subtypep (list 'eql x) y) isn't the same as (typep x y), if subtypep is perfect
2015-09-08T23:00:34Z Bicyclidine: discounting second value bla bla garbage, ofc
2015-09-08T23:00:46Z pillton: Ok.
2015-09-08T23:01:39Z pillton: I was thinking that (type-of object) is a supertype (list 'eql object) in this example.
2015-09-08T23:02:29Z Bicyclidine: it is.
2015-09-08T23:02:48Z pillton: Actually (type-of #\A) is a super type of (eql #\A).
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2015-09-08T23:03:13Z Bicyclidine: sbcl didn't return "it's not a subtype", just "I don't know"
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2015-09-08T23:04:32Z pillton: Yep. So it is a conforming implementation.
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2015-09-08T23:10:42Z mprelude: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32468600/implementing-scram-sha1-client-getting-it-wrong-somewhere
2015-09-08T23:10:49Z mprelude: Really running out of ideas
2015-09-08T23:11:03Z mprelude: Upvotes appreciated
2015-09-08T23:12:04Z pillton: Bicyclidine: I thought the "Represents" in the sentence above implied that (eql 1), for example, would be converted to (integer 1 1) and then subtypep would proceed.
2015-09-08T23:14:42Z pillton: Bicyclidine: I guess it doesn't matter.
2015-09-08T23:15:17Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Thanks. I'll just defer to typep in those cases.
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2015-09-09T01:07:34Z pjb: minion: memo for mprelude: your datatypes are all wrong.  the RFC keeps repeating all over the place that the data shall be UTF-8 encoded octets.  Why do you use strings?  ASCII codes are not (integer 0 255), they're (integer 0 127)!  The result of HMAC shall be a (vector octet *) and this is what shall be passed to base64. Then why do you write-to-string your ClientProof??? This is crazy.
2015-09-09T01:07:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mprelude when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-09T01:16:11Z pjb: minion: memo for mprelude: and you don't have to convert bit vectors to integer to xor them, you can use BIT-XOR. On the other hand, you need to convert those bit-vectors to octet vectors, or even better, convert the bit-vectors directly to base64.
2015-09-09T01:16:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mprelude when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-09T02:14:55Z loke: Good morning Lisp
2015-09-09T02:16:29Z Xach: hi loke
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2015-09-09T02:25:22Z loke: Hello Xach
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2015-09-09T02:28:03Z loke: Some time ago, I ran a microbenchmark on the javascript engine in Chrome (I think I computet fibonacci numbers using the naïve implementation) and the performance was almost exactly on-par with that of cl-js running on SBCL. I'd like to run a better test case to do this comparison, so do you know of any Javascript benchmarks?
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2015-09-09T02:34:06Z Zhivago: Microbenchmarks on v8 are problematic, since it uses a profile based dynamic optimization.
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2015-09-09T03:00:31Z jasom: loke: http://www.arewefastyet.com/
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2015-09-09T03:01:41Z loke: Zhivago: Yes, that figures
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2015-09-09T03:22:46Z pillton: G'day loke.
2015-09-09T03:22:55Z loke: Hello pillton
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2015-09-09T03:37:36Z jasom: loke: several hours ago someone was inquiring about cl-rabbit
2015-09-09T03:37:43Z jasom: loke: it was DeadTrickster
2015-09-09T03:37:51Z loke: jasom: Oh, really?
2015-09-09T03:39:41Z jasom: loke: yeah, wanted to know if anyone used it, had comments on its feel.
2015-09-09T03:39:53Z loke: Well I use it. :-)
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2015-09-09T03:39:59Z loke: (obviously)
2015-09-09T03:40:22Z jasom: loke: not as obvious as you might think, there are many abandoned projects on github
2015-09-09T03:40:33Z loke: Yeah, fair enough
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2015-09-09T03:40:40Z jasom: well Xach let him know you were in here on Singapore time
2015-09-09T03:40:50Z loke: Well I use it in production and it's very stable.
2015-09-09T03:41:27Z jasom: well DeadTrickster is idling in here now, so if he checks his logs, he'll get that at least
2015-09-09T03:41:38Z loke: Yep
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2015-09-09T05:23:21Z Fare: I'm trying to find an appropriate title for my chapter 5, about supporting live upgrade by tracking code change as first-class transactions. Contenders: "Life Upgraded", "Non-Stop Change", "The More It Changes"
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2015-09-09T05:34:18Z pillton: None of them fit the narrative of "tracking code as first-class transactions".
2015-09-09T05:34:20Z flip214: Fare: COMMIT OR ROLLBACK?
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2015-09-09T05:34:33Z flip214: no, too general
2015-09-09T05:34:58Z flip214: although I was thinking of "git commit"... the rollback just rhymed in
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2015-09-09T05:40:49Z pillton: People often look at the table of contents to see what the book covers.
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2015-09-09T05:44:10Z flip214: how about "ALTER FUNCTION() to keep code/database consistency"?
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2015-09-09T05:55:31Z loke: is Fare writing a Lisp book?
2015-09-09T05:56:17Z jackdaniel: more cybernetician one (using his own nomenclature)
2015-09-09T05:56:56Z flip214: "When the Database calls swank functions"
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2015-09-09T06:20:18Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-09T06:41:07Z CodyReichert: Hi kami
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2015-09-09T08:01:42Z jackdaniel: hm, is there any sense to declare something of being given type and checking that type afterwards with check-type ?
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2015-09-09T08:04:30Z Cymew: Sounds redundant. Do your implementation promise to honor type declarations, or is it just advisory?
2015-09-09T08:04:48Z Cymew: I must confess I have never checked that part of the CLHS
2015-09-09T08:05:01Z Cymew: ...closely at least
2015-09-09T08:05:18Z Bike: disobeying a type declaration is undefined, not defined as an error, so yes, it can make sense
2015-09-09T08:05:37Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-09T08:05:53Z jackdaniel: Cymew: declaration is a promise to the compiler, not the other way around
2015-09-09T08:06:09Z Bike: specifically if the implementation doesn't define declarations as errors, or if it can't derive a declaration from a check-type anyway
2015-09-09T08:07:31Z jackdaniel: Bike: ok, thanks
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2015-09-09T08:23:06Z Cymew: jackdaniel: I see. Thanks for illuminating me. I have never really delved into those parts.
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2015-09-09T08:24:03Z jackdaniel: pleasure is mine :)
2015-09-09T08:24:13Z Cymew: >(
2015-09-09T08:24:16Z Cymew: oops
2015-09-09T08:24:18Z Cymew: :)
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2015-09-09T08:52:48Z |3b|: jackdaniel: don't declare then check, since after the declaration the compiler can assume the check will succeed and ignore it
2015-09-09T08:55:13Z jackdaniel: |3b|: so what do you suggest? I want function to be optimized (if compiler knows how), yet to check the type to ensure correctnes. maybe (defun b (x) (declare (type x))) (defun a (x) (check-type x type) (b x)) ?
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2015-09-09T08:55:26Z jackdaniel: correctness°
2015-09-09T08:55:43Z Shinmera: As Bike said, one would hope that the compiler can derive the declaration from the type check.
2015-09-09T08:55:57Z |3b|: sort of depends on compiler
2015-09-09T08:56:10Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: but I can't rely on that
2015-09-09T08:56:14Z Shinmera: And if you want to make double sure, (check-type x type) (locally (declare (type type x)) ..)
2015-09-09T08:56:15Z |3b|: for some just doing check-type is enough, since after that it knows it is that type
2015-09-09T08:56:46Z |3b|: yeah, CHECK-TYPE + LOCALLY is the safe/portable option
2015-09-09T08:57:40Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks
2015-09-09T08:57:40Z |3b|: or sometimes, TYPECASE is useful if you have some special cases that might be more optimizable (like specialized arrays vs generic sequences)
2015-09-09T08:58:23Z jackdaniel: no, it's about enforcing type and informing compile that it can perform optimizations
2015-09-09T08:58:28Z jackdaniel: s/compile/compiler/
2015-09-09T08:58:35Z |3b|: yeah, that's what i mean
2015-09-09T08:59:37Z |3b|: if the compiler just knows "SEQUENCE" it can't optimize much, but if it knows (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*)) it might be able to optimize more, but APIs that only accept the latter are annoying to use from REPL
2015-09-09T09:00:08Z |3b|: similarly for the restricted subtypes of string people like to require
2015-09-09T09:00:13Z jackdaniel: right, I'll keep it in mind
2015-09-09T09:03:02Z Xof: jackdaniel: no-one's given you the high-level advice yet, so I will: usually, not very much of your code needs to be optimized -- and you should be guided by a profiler to optimize those hotspots rather than by guessing or by attempting to optimize everything
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2015-09-09T09:06:01Z Shinmera: How far you can optimise and how you need to optimise will also depend on your implementation and potentially OS at hand, so "optimising globally" isn't going to be that easy.
2015-09-09T09:06:35Z jackdaniel: Xof: motivation was as follows - I want to enforce type of argument at API level, so added check-type. Then I tought, that if I use that enforcment anyway, I may inform compiler about that.
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2015-09-09T09:29:27Z Xof: heh.  You've probably spent hundreds of times more time thinking about informing the compiler about it than the compiler will ever save as a result of this optimization :-)
2015-09-09T09:29:32Z Xof: but worth learning, anyway
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2015-09-09T09:55:37Z tsp1: Can I use iterate to iterate over key value in a propery list  (list :foo 'bar :test 'click) like I can with an alist?
2015-09-09T09:59:37Z remi`bd: yes
2015-09-09T10:00:00Z remi`bd: basically, you’ll iterate over your list by cddr (instead of by cdr)
2015-09-09T10:01:00Z remi`bd: using iterate’s destructuring feature, it’s something like:
2015-09-09T10:01:20Z remi`bd: (for (car cadr . cddr) …)
2015-09-09T10:01:41Z remi`bd: and that’s it
2015-09-09T10:02:14Z remi`bd: oh no
2015-09-09T10:02:22Z remi`bd: wrong code, but that’s the idea
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2015-09-09T10:03:19Z remi`bd: (iter (for (key value . rest) on plist by cddr) …)
2015-09-09T10:04:01Z remi`bd: 1. iterate on plist by cddr to get the successive sublists: (:foo 'bar :test 'click) then (:test 'click)
2015-09-09T10:04:12Z remi`bd: 2. use destructuration to get what you want
2015-09-09T10:05:17Z remi`bd: you may also define a new clause for that
2015-09-09T10:05:27Z remi`bd: something like:
2015-09-09T10:05:49Z remi`bd: s/clause/driver/
2015-09-09T10:09:45Z remi`bd: (defmacro-driver (FOR key val IN-PLIST lst) (let ((rest (gensym))) (when generate (error)) `(for (,key ,val . ,rest) on ,lst by cddr)))
2015-09-09T10:10:16Z remi`bd: untested; the (when generate (error)) is an “unimplemented”
2015-09-09T10:12:25Z tsp1: remi`bd: thanx
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2015-09-09T10:23:17Z mprelude: Xach: You have a library add request :D
2015-09-09T10:23:18Z minion: mprelude, memo from pjb: your datatypes are all wrong.  the RFC keeps repeating all over the place that the data shall be UTF-8 encoded octets.  Why do you use strings?  ASCII codes are not (integer 0 255), they're (integer 0 127)!  The result of HMAC shall be a (vector octet *) and this is what shall be passed to base64. Then why do you write-to-string your ClientProof??? This is crazy.
2015-09-09T10:23:18Z minion: mprelude, memo from pjb: and you don't have to convert bit vectors to integer to xor them, you can use BIT-XOR. On the other hand, you need to convert those bit-vectors to octet vectors, or even better, convert the bit-vectors directly to base64.
2015-09-09T10:24:59Z mprelude: ^ Thanks for that info. Got the same answer on StackOverflow and was able to fix immediately.
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2015-09-09T12:50:14Z Fare: OK, Common Lisp gets mentioned by name in my latest post: http://ngnghm.github.io/blog/2015/09/08/chapter-5-non-stop-change/
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2015-09-09T13:01:22Z warweasle: Morning
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2015-09-09T13:14:12Z jackdaniel wonders, why alexandria doesn't have (ensure-getf …) ; that is macro analogue of (ensure-gethash …)
2015-09-09T13:15:12Z Fare: jackdaniel, because you didn't submit it yet?
2015-09-09T13:15:36Z jackdaniel: yeah, I think that's the case
2015-09-09T13:16:02Z warweasle: cl-js seems to parse ammo.js, but it kills sbcl. Error: "Process inferior-lisp killed"
2015-09-09T13:16:27Z jackdaniel: ammunition is dangerous, does it parse it with function #'gun ?
2015-09-09T13:16:41Z Fare: oh, I need to update that bug of ours, jackdaniel
2015-09-09T13:16:52Z jackdaniel: some new info?
2015-09-09T13:16:58Z jackdaniel: s/info/input/ ?
2015-09-09T13:16:59Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Has gun, will travel.
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2015-09-09T13:24:32Z jackdaniel also wonders, why gethash and getf are inconsistent in standard regarding place and key order
2015-09-09T13:25:08Z jackdaniel: s/standard/the standard/
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2015-09-09T13:26:40Z flip214: jackdaniel: see cl21, quite a few things like this are fixed.
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2015-09-09T13:27:40Z Devon: Know a portable way to obtain the current user name?
2015-09-09T13:28:22Z jackdaniel: Devon: only semi-portable – (uiop:getenv "USER")
2015-09-09T13:29:13Z Shinmera: You could use USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME and then try to parse that.
2015-09-09T13:30:22Z flip214: I guess something like getuid() followed by getpwent() would be necessary.
2015-09-09T13:30:38Z flip214: although that might give a different result
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2015-09-09T13:39:18Z Devon: (pathname-name (cl-fad::pathname-as-file (user-homedir-pathname))) ; unreliably presume home directory name = user name
2015-09-09T13:40:00Z Xach: (first (last (pathname-directory (user-homedir-pathname)))) if you were going that route
2015-09-09T13:40:25Z Xach: the last shall be first and the first shall be last
2015-09-09T13:41:05Z Devon: I searched all of ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ for getpwent and found only references to docs.  Sigh, time to learn FFI.
2015-09-09T13:41:14Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/kIv/common-lisp – rfc (I'll want to upstream this to alexandria)
2015-09-09T13:41:26Z jackdaniel: s/I'll/I/
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2015-09-09T13:42:11Z jackdaniel: Devon: what is wrong with getenv approach?
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2015-09-09T13:47:30Z loke```: Devon: checked IOLIB?
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2015-09-09T13:52:42Z Devon: Getenv presumes a process was launched normally.
2015-09-09T13:53:01Z Devon: IOLIB is in quicklisp but maybe my search terms were off.
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2015-09-09T13:56:42Z Devon: 404 http://www.ix.io/kIv/common-lisp
2015-09-09T13:57:37Z jackdaniel: pop "www."
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2015-09-09T13:59:48Z flip214: Devon: (sb-posix:) or other ffi unix wrappers already exist
2015-09-09T14:01:03Z jackdaniel: flip214: iolib or osicat are better choices, he explicitly mentioned that he want's to do that in poratble way
2015-09-09T14:01:54Z splittist: portable across lisp implementations, I assume. I don't think the concept of username is portable across OSes (in any really meaningful way). I could be wrong.
2015-09-09T14:02:15Z jackdaniel: splittist: yeah, that's what I meant, sb-posix isn't portable unix interface
2015-09-09T14:02:22Z jackdaniel: across implementations
2015-09-09T14:02:30Z fe[nl]ix: splittist: it is on the OSes that matter
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2015-09-09T14:06:03Z loke```: fenlix: It's funny how Windows is a second (or even third-) class citizen these days
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2015-09-09T14:07:08Z fe[nl]ix: loke```: with open-source stuff
2015-09-09T14:07:27Z fe[nl]ix: but Franz and LW get most of their money from Windows customers
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2015-09-09T14:07:34Z loke```: fenlix: not just open-source
2015-09-09T14:09:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: I meant osicat, anyway
2015-09-09T14:09:02Z loke```: fenlix: hmm, it certainly does seem like there is an immense divide separating the windows developer community and the rest of the world, whith the former looking more and more isolated. Or is this just me sitting in an echochamber?
2015-09-09T14:09:20Z fe[nl]ix: loke```: I have the same impression
2015-09-09T14:09:26Z flip214: loke```: seconded
2015-09-09T14:09:37Z Xach: loke```: reminds me of the apocryphal london newspaper headline: "fog in channel, continent isolated"
2015-09-09T14:09:43Z flip214: but perhaps that's just wishfull thinking, though
2015-09-09T14:10:02Z loke```: Sometimes I'm thinking of the zOS developer community with the same eyes as I'm thinkng of the windows ones...
2015-09-09T14:10:15Z jackdaniel: maybe windows will finally develop posix compat layer ;-)
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2015-09-09T14:12:21Z DeadTrickster: loke```, are you the author of cl-rabbit?
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2015-09-09T14:12:42Z loke```: jackdaniel: Perhaps. But right now it seems as though the Winodws 10 is Microsoft's last offensive. Their battle of the bulge if you like.
2015-09-09T14:13:13Z loke```: Eventually it seems Nadella wants to focus on Azure and become more platform agnostic. At least I've seen signs that point in that direction.
2015-09-09T14:13:18Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Yes
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2015-09-09T14:13:56Z DeadTrickster: loke```, how it feels? do you think it stable? I saw you started async version what your plans here?
2015-09-09T14:14:02Z p_l: jackdaniel: windows had a posix compat layer that actually worked
2015-09-09T14:14:21Z p_l: jackdaniel: that said, a lot of posix APIs are worse than the native ones
2015-09-09T14:14:21Z loke```: DeadTrickster: The sync version is very stable.
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2015-09-09T14:15:06Z loke```: The async one works fine and runs in production right now. That said, until very recently it had at least one resource leak.
2015-09-09T14:15:10Z jackdaniel: p_l: I've heard that they *planned* to create such thing, but dumped idea as a waste of time
2015-09-09T14:15:43Z p_l: jackdaniel: they dumped it with windows 8, but in the Vista/7 timeframe it was made free
2015-09-09T14:15:48Z p_l: (previously it was paid product)
2015-09-09T14:15:50Z warweasle: Is there a way to trace all functions in a package?
2015-09-09T14:15:53Z DeadTrickster: loke```, what design you used? I see
2015-09-09T14:16:06Z loke```: DeadTrickster: It calls into the C API
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2015-09-09T14:16:14Z DeadTrickster: ... heavy usage of thread locks
2015-09-09T14:16:19Z DeadTrickster: in async version
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2015-09-09T14:16:28Z DeadTrickster: so is it based on CFFI too?
2015-09-09T14:16:38Z loke```: DeadTrickster: It sits on top of the sync version
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2015-09-09T14:17:02Z loke```: You should generally use the third level on top of that, the stuff in mconnection.lisp.
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2015-09-09T14:17:18Z loke```: That ransparently manages multiple connections with N number of channels per connection.
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2015-09-09T14:17:39Z loke```: That what should be used for applications that needs lots and lots of channels (my currently application has many thousands)
2015-09-09T14:17:45Z warweasle: I need to see which functions are called.
2015-09-09T14:18:10Z Xach: warweasle: some implementations provide an extra option to TRACE to do that
2015-09-09T14:18:58Z DeadTrickster: loke```, have you seen http://rubybunny.info/ when you have one thread per connection (if I'm correct)?
2015-09-09T14:19:16Z Xach: warweasle: for example, (trace "FOO") in sbcl means "trace every function named by a symbol whose home package has the name FOO"
2015-09-09T14:19:43Z loke```: DeadTrickster: I don't do that. No need for it.
2015-09-09T14:19:54Z DeadTrickster: loke```, or better - do you have examples, like official rabbitmq guides?
2015-09-09T14:19:56Z loke```: With the async version, yes. You do.
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2015-09-09T14:20:35Z loke```: DeadTrickster: What are your requirements actually?
2015-09-09T14:20:46Z loke```: And do you know rabbitmq well?
2015-09-09T14:20:49Z warweasle: Xach: That doesn't seem to work with cl-js. I'm trying (trace "cl-js") and (trace :cl-js)
2015-09-09T14:21:02Z Xach: warweasle: the name of the package is "CL-JS", not "cl-js".
2015-09-09T14:21:18Z warweasle: Xach: Thanks, worked.
2015-09-09T14:21:31Z DeadTrickster: loke```, I need RPC and I need multiple job queues with acks and health monitoring
2015-09-09T14:21:54Z DeadTrickster: I already have erlang system and I want integrate it with CL
2015-09-09T14:21:59Z loke```: DeadTrickster: What is "multiple"? 2? 5? 10? 100?
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2015-09-09T14:22:12Z warweasle is trying to see if I can add a GC to cl-js to keep it from crashing.
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2015-09-09T14:23:38Z warweasle: Still the heap death of the universe. I'll trying this at home later. Thanks for the support.
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2015-09-09T14:24:57Z DeadTrickster: loke```,  more like 5. See, this part of the system is postponed because of lack? of rabbitmq libs so I don't know 100% what will be at the end
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2015-09-09T14:25:37Z loke```: DeadTrickster: THen you should be able to confidently use the sync version of cl-rabbit
2015-09-09T14:27:18Z DeadTrickster: loke```, thank you, firstly I'll try rewrite official tutorials... Do you think your API is stable, do you accept push requests?
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2015-09-09T14:27:31Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Yes of course.
2015-09-09T14:27:38Z loke```: Documentation would be useful, yes :-)
2015-09-09T14:28:09Z loke```: Basically, any documentation applying to rabbitmq-c (the C API) maps pretty much 1:1 to cl-rabbit.
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2015-09-09T14:29:08Z loke```: The async one is where the complexity lies, because there is lots of code in there to deal with multiplexing multiple requests, waiting for replies, etc in there that isn't needed if you run in sync mode.
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2015-09-09T14:31:01Z DeadTrickster: loke```, l briefly read rabbitmq-c (alanxz fork) code and is horrifying :-) stuff like amqp_maybe_release_buffers amqp_destroy_envelope
2015-09-09T14:31:09Z DeadTrickster: too low level to me
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2015-09-09T14:33:07Z loke```: DeadTrickster: cl-rabbit hides all that
2015-09-09T14:34:24Z loke```: rabbitmq-c is actually quite efficient and easy to use. Typical C API stuff. cl-rabbit preserves the general strcuture of the library, but gets rids of everything dealing with memory managent etc.
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2015-09-09T14:36:25Z DeadTrickster: loke```, basically in sync version I call consume in a loop right? in async version I use callbacks invoked in the same thread right? but what 'the same' thread will be? calling or connection?
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2015-09-09T14:37:55Z loke```: DeadTrickster: The async version has callbacks called from the processing thread. That's an implementation detail though. It should be noted, however, that you shouldn't do long-running processing in the callback since it blocks further messages.
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2015-09-09T14:38:40Z loke```: In the sync version, you call CL-RABBIT:CONSUME-MESSAGE in a loop
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2015-09-09T14:40:10Z loke```: The call to CONSUME-MESSAGE will return an instance of MESSAGE which contains the BODY and PROPERTIES.
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2015-09-09T14:41:32Z didi: Is there a function, besides (concatenate 'string ...), that concatenates strings?
2015-09-09T14:41:35Z DeadTrickster: loke```, I asked that just because I want to do long-running processing :-). So basically you have lets say 'connection thread' that hides loop and invokes callbacks and if I want long-running stuff in callbacks I can use lparallel  pools right?
2015-09-09T14:41:59Z Shinmera: didi: format can do it, as well as a few other methods that aren't a single function call.
2015-09-09T14:42:06Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Yes. For long-running connections you can do that. Works great.
2015-09-09T14:42:07Z Xach: didi: format, indirectly
2015-09-09T14:42:17Z Shinmera: didi: Why the question? What do you really want to do?
2015-09-09T14:42:18Z Xach: didi: with-output-to-string, indirectly
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2015-09-09T14:42:30Z didi: Shinmera, Xach: Thank you.
2015-09-09T14:42:46Z didi: Shinmera: Concatenate strings more succinctly.
2015-09-09T14:43:01Z loke```: DeadTrickster: The async version is only needed if you want to listen to messages on a channel, while simultaneously doing other things on other channels, on different threads, withou thaving to manuallu corrdinate things.
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2015-09-09T14:43:34Z loke```: If you are OK with having one connection per thread (and probably just a single channel per connection) then plain cl-rabbit is enough.
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2015-09-09T14:44:44Z DeadTrickster: loke```, this looks like ruby Bunny design to me (I hope you don't mind this comparison) I this is good because I can easily rewrite existing ruby tutorials
2015-09-09T14:45:05Z didi: Another one: Is there a function that receives chars and evaluates to a string? (my-string #\f #\o #\o) => "foo"
2015-09-09T14:45:07Z loke```: DeadTrickster: I have never used rabbitmq with anything but Lisp
2015-09-09T14:45:11Z loke```: So I wouldn't know :-)
2015-09-09T14:45:34Z loke```: didi: (coerce 'string '(#\f #\o #\o))
2015-09-09T14:45:50Z didi: loke```: Thank you.
2015-09-09T14:46:25Z loke```: Another variation, allowing you to process each character if you replace #'identity: (map 'string #'identity '(#\f #\o #\o))
2015-09-09T14:46:55Z didi: loke```: Thanks. I am actually using this form.
2015-09-09T14:47:27Z DeadTrickster: loke```, at first I was confused with -async naming because we have stuff like drakma-async and so on, which is actually multiplexed so I thought (esp because of iolib dependency) cl-rabbit-async is completely unrelated multiplexed version
2015-09-09T14:47:52Z DeadTrickster: that is why so many question about design
2015-09-09T14:47:53Z loke```: DeadTrickster: It's definitely multiplexed
2015-09-09T14:48:19Z loke```: It multiplexes individual channels over one rabbitmq connection
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2015-09-09T14:48:58Z DeadTrickster: loke```, :-) i meant network connection multiplexing using epoll and friends
2015-09-09T14:49:19Z loke```: DeadTrickster: It does that behind the scenes
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2015-09-09T14:49:57Z loke```: The main multiplexer loop sits in a poll call, waiting for events on the underlying raw rabbitmq socket (as well as the control pipe used for commands)
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2015-09-09T14:50:37Z loke```: There is one such thread per underlying connection, but that's not an issue. You wouldn't have more than a 100 or so at the same time even in an extreme case.
2015-09-09T14:51:02Z loke```: That's because you can easily have 1000 channels on a single connection.
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2015-09-09T14:52:01Z DeadTrickster: loke```, I see `run-async-loop` you basically save cpu here using multiplexer right?
2015-09-09T14:52:16Z loke```: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-rabbit-async/blob/master/src/cl-rabbit-async.lisp#L163
2015-09-09T14:52:28Z DeadTrickster: yep I'm right here
2015-09-09T14:53:22Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Yes, because that call will block until there is _any_ activity, either by a thread making a call to any of the async rabbitmq wrappers, say async-queue-bind or any incoming messages from the rabbitmq server
2015-09-09T14:54:39Z loke```: The idea is that the async API provides you with a call that opens a channel, and then the client code can use that channel, bind queues, listen for messages etc, not caring about the fact that other threads may be working on other channels at the same time. All is multiplexed over that loop.
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2015-09-09T14:56:43Z DeadTrickster: loke```, run-in-sync-thread is the main part?
2015-09-09T14:57:06Z loke```: DeadTrickster: All parts are important. :-)
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2015-09-09T14:57:13Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-09-09T14:57:31Z DeadTrickster: I mean you have to have queue for outside stuff
2015-09-09T14:58:10Z loke```: RUN-IN-SYNC-THREAD is badly named. It did exactly that in an older version, but error handling was annoying (no proper stack traces when an error happened). The name of that function should probably be BLOCK-EVERYTHING-AND-RUN-THIS-CL-RABBITM-CALL
2015-09-09T14:59:28Z loke```: It sends a message to the multiplexer to tell it to stop listening for a moment, waits for the multiplexer to do that, then runs its code and finally lets the multiplexer loop continue.
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2015-09-09T15:00:31Z DeadTrickster: hmm
2015-09-09T15:00:49Z DeadTrickster: very interesting - everything executed in context of calling thread
2015-09-09T15:02:15Z DeadTrickster: in clws it is done slightly differently: you have command fd too but all lambdas are queued and run in multiplexer thread
2015-09-09T15:02:24Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Yes. Like I said, it didn't used to, but when an error happened the condition was raised on the multiplexer thead instead, so I had to build a mechanism where the information about the error was sent to the waiting caller, blah blah, it was a mess. Easier and much more straightforward to do it this way.
2015-09-09T15:04:21Z didi: Is there a `format' directive that takes part of a string? e.g. (format nil "~<1,2>a" "foo") => "o"
2015-09-09T15:04:51Z Bike: no. just pass a subseq?
2015-09-09T15:05:01Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
2015-09-09T15:05:14Z DeadTrickster: loke```, why you didn't used eventfd for 'command pipe'? why when request-index is nil connection stopped?
2015-09-09T15:06:29Z loke```: DeadTrickster: Well, I needed some way of telling the loop that it's time to stop.
2015-09-09T15:07:03Z loke```: LOAD-INTEGER-FROM-FD returns NIL if the command pipe has been closed.
2015-09-09T15:08:24Z didi: Uh. `format' is nice. Instead of using (apply 'concatenate 'string list-of-strings), is it too naughty to use (format nil "~{~a~}" list-of-strings)?
2015-09-09T15:08:32Z Xach: didi: no
2015-09-09T15:08:39Z didi: Xach: Cool.
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2015-09-09T15:12:05Z DeadTrickster: loke```, ok thanks for answers :-)
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2015-09-09T15:14:05Z loke```: DeadTrickster: No problem
2015-09-09T15:14:06Z Xach: didi: nothing is especially naughty if it's in a context where it can be understood. sometimes it's better to wrap it up with a name if it is likely to be misunderstood.
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2015-09-09T15:18:56Z didi: Xach: Roger. I recently learned a cool "trick": The looping variable of a LOOP is on scope inside LOOP's `finally'. It is useful.
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2015-09-09T15:20:56Z Xof: didi: true, though beware: it's unspecified whether it is at the final value or one past the final value
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2015-09-09T15:22:45Z didi: Xof: Oh noes. Really? That is my "useful" part.
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2015-09-09T15:23:10Z didi: Dang...
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2015-09-09T15:28:40Z didi: Oh well. I am happy I at least brought it up.
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2015-09-09T15:30:42Z kami: Fare: I would like to use program-op to create a compressed executable on sbcl
2015-09-09T15:31:32Z kami: I don't see a way other than using an eql specializer.
2015-09-09T15:32:23Z kami: (defmethod asdf:perform ((o asdf:image-op) (s (eql (asdf:find-system :my-system))))
2015-09-09T15:32:36Z kami: Am I overlooking something?
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2015-09-09T15:37:34Z Xof: my question for the afternoon is: how do developers on Windows cope?
2015-09-09T15:38:00Z jasom: Xof: cope with what?
2015-09-09T15:38:03Z warweasle: Xof: In general or with lisp?
2015-09-09T15:38:30Z warweasle: Xof: I use virtualBox and use Linux to get work done.
2015-09-09T15:38:43Z Xach uses emacs with eshell
2015-09-09T15:39:10Z jackdaniel does the same as Xach when has to use windows (plus cygwin)
2015-09-09T15:39:23Z jasom switched from cygwin to babun
2015-09-09T15:39:24Z dwchandler: Xof: I coped by not using or developing for Windows ;-)
2015-09-09T15:39:26Z Xof: for example, I am attempting to build pzmq
2015-09-09T15:39:28Z didi: cygwin ftw
2015-09-09T15:39:46Z Xof: which binds to libzmq, so, OK, I need to put pzmq somewhere
2015-09-09T15:40:00Z Xof: and it needs to be able to find zmq.h (and later zmq.dll)
2015-09-09T15:40:12Z jasom: Xof: drop all the dependent .DLLs in the same directory as your executable.
2015-09-09T15:40:25Z jasom: and yes, the groveller is a PITA to use on windows
2015-09-09T15:42:44Z Xof: yeah, but this then gets repeated $N$ times
2015-09-09T15:42:57Z Xof: want to use python?  Oh, here's a new terminal with PATH set-up right
2015-09-09T15:42:57Z Fare: kami: patches welcome
2015-09-09T15:43:07Z DeadTrickster: loke```, you sad you "had to build a mechanism where the information about the error was sent to the waiting caller, blah blah" I think this is solved by lparallel
2015-09-09T15:43:07Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: windows development is geared towards building software by clicking on a button in thy favourite IDE
2015-09-09T15:43:11Z Fare: kami: not everyone wants a compressed executable — or do they?
2015-09-09T15:43:16Z Xof: want to use Git?  Here's a new terminal with PATH setup right
2015-09-09T15:43:24Z Xof: want to use Git *and* Python?  Ha
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2015-09-09T15:43:27Z DeadTrickster: loke```, task-handler-bind
2015-09-09T15:43:29Z jasom: Fare: definitely not everyone wants a compressed executable
2015-09-09T15:43:40Z Xof: but maybe someone else knows how to cope with all this?
2015-09-09T15:43:42Z Fare: kami: your system could use a subclass of system
2015-09-09T15:43:46Z Fare: other than eql
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2015-09-09T15:44:24Z emaczen: How do you guys host a hunchentoot serve in production?
2015-09-09T15:44:24Z jackdaniel: Xof: for standard unix toolset use cygwin (note it's gpl'ed unless you buy other license)
2015-09-09T15:44:28Z emaczen: server*
2015-09-09T15:44:56Z jackdaniel: emaczen: behind nginx / apache
2015-09-09T15:45:35Z DeadTrickster: emaczen, and beaware of session cookie value generation it
2015-09-09T15:45:45Z DeadTrickster: created in standard signature way
2015-09-09T15:45:56Z DeadTrickster: so you can always recognize default hunchentoot setup
2015-09-09T15:46:02Z Xof: jackdaniel: so one fun gotcha I have found there is that my home directory under cygwin is not the same as my emacs home directory
2015-09-09T15:46:05Z DeadTrickster: not sure it is good from security point
2015-09-09T15:46:15Z jasom: yeah, it does not use a secure PRNG for session cookie generation IIRC
2015-09-09T15:46:26Z jackdaniel: Xof: native windows emacs, or emacs from cygwin?
2015-09-09T15:46:31Z Xof: native windows emacs
2015-09-09T15:46:41Z Xof: (I'm sure it is the same as the cygwin emacs)
2015-09-09T15:46:54Z emaczen: Does anybody have any notes on this? I've used apache only very minorly before
2015-09-09T15:47:03Z DeadTrickster: jasom, also this pattern *:*
2015-09-09T15:47:07Z jackdaniel: Xof: it'sa different thing
2015-09-09T15:47:15Z Xof: anyway.  I might just go back to my non-Windows cave
2015-09-09T15:47:55Z dwchandler: emaczen: if you're not deep into apache already then you might find nginx simpler to set up
2015-09-09T15:48:12Z kami: Fare: eql specialiser is OK for the moment
2015-09-09T15:49:20Z DeadTrickster: Xof, I actually have the same looking problem with clsql-mysql on linux boxes - I have to put two *.so files somewhere I whish save-lisp-and-die could statically link that stuff
2015-09-09T15:50:01Z jasom: I just looked at the session cookie generation, and I have seen worse, but I still wouldn't trust it over just reading bytes from /dev/urandom
2015-09-09T15:50:31Z rme: emaczen: For apache, ensure that you load mod_proxy, and add these lines: "ProxyPass / http://127.0.0.1:8080/" "ProxyPassReverse / http://127.0.0.1:8080/"
2015-09-09T15:50:32Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: talk with Shinmera, I think he solved at least partially problem of missing "so" files (but I might misheard something)
2015-09-09T15:50:39Z DeadTrickster: jasom, what you think about generators from ironclad?
2015-09-09T15:51:11Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I don't trust ironclad for anything except hasing in a context where the timing is not leaked to an attacker
2015-09-09T15:51:12Z rme: emaczen: Maybe that will help get you going.  That assumes you have hunchentoot listening on port 8080, of course.
2015-09-09T15:51:24Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, this is more distribution problem to me :-) it solved automatically once we started to distribute software using debian packages
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2015-09-09T15:51:53Z DeadTrickster: jasom, like constant-time string comparison so password length can't be guessed?
2015-09-09T15:51:54Z jasom: DeadTrickster: not that I know of any specific weaknesses in ironclad, but getting this stuff right is *hard*
2015-09-09T15:52:04Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: that's what I mean, distrubute so files
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2015-09-09T15:52:47Z DeadTrickster: jasom, yea many people telling that I wonder how new crypto stuff created for other ecosystems =)
2015-09-09T15:52:48Z emaczen: rme: Thanks, I'm reading the comparison between apache and nginx.
2015-09-09T15:53:45Z jasom: DeadTrickster: you bind to old crypto stuff written in C
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2015-09-09T15:54:26Z jasom: DeadTrickster: actually I am using a pbkdf2 implementation on top of ironclad for password hashing.  It *might* be possible to exploit a timing attack here, but would certainly be non-trivial
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2015-09-09T15:55:13Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, yes it works and I have feeling that something unnatural is happening because this stuff is not a part image created by sbcl. Especially because I have to remember to update all my *.so when I update the world
2015-09-09T15:55:25Z DeadTrickster: jasom, I
2015-09-09T15:55:27Z jasom: DeadTrickster: in this case, I traded off the possibility of a timing attack for quickly being able to store passwords in a non-easily-recoverable format
2015-09-09T15:55:48Z DeadTrickster: jasom, I'm using scrypt
2015-09-09T15:55:57Z DeadTrickster: looks good :-)
2015-09-09T15:56:12Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: on the other hand ecl can link with object files since it uses gcc if the C backend is enabled
2015-09-09T15:58:02Z jasom: DeadTrickster: on linux, usually you just require them to install your dependencies via their package manager (and ideally you package up your executable for their distro as well).
2015-09-09T15:58:21Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, when I asked this on #sbcl I was told to compile sbcl from the ground with needed deps, this works too )
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2015-09-09T15:58:56Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Only for the specific case of Qt.
2015-09-09T15:58:57Z DeadTrickster: jasom, yep as I said that is why I'm using debian packages, but this doesn't work with clsql
2015-09-09T15:59:24Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: ok
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2015-09-09T16:00:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: is there something that will translate a css stylesheet into a lass stylesheet?
2015-09-09T16:01:26Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: No, it's a ticket. https://trello.com/c/0Gkbw5f0
2015-09-09T16:01:36Z DeadTrickster: at first this was like apt-get install <name> - installs everything (nginx, rdbms, configs, startup scripts) and then I manually copy clsql stuff. very funny
2015-09-09T16:02:13Z Xof: DeadTrickster: that's a different problem!  You've managed to _build_ stuff; relocating it is mildly tricky
2015-09-09T16:03:49Z DeadTrickster: Xof, well if you want to have robust service you have to have easy and speedy deploying, say ec2 + load balancer
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2015-09-09T16:04:20Z DeadTrickster: ah, also you need backups that work :-) but this is another story
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2015-09-09T16:05:33Z Xof: DeadTrickster: anyway, you can use *save-hooks* and *init-hooks* to unload and reload shared objects, if you know where they will be
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2015-09-09T16:05:59Z Xof: (if I've understood your problem correctly)
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2015-09-09T16:07:32Z jasom: DeadTrickster: what does clsql need that isn't in your image?
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2015-09-09T16:08:38Z DeadTrickster: jasom, clsql_mysql.so clsql_uffi.so
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2015-09-09T16:13:22Z DeadTrickster: Xof, afaik sbcl does this automatically by default
2015-09-09T16:13:38Z DeadTrickster: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Loading-Shared-Object-Files
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2015-09-09T16:18:00Z jasom: ugh, it has its own so files?
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2015-09-09T16:20:04Z Xof: DeadTrickster: it does it automatically assuming that the object files will be in the same place as they were
2015-09-09T16:20:16Z Xof: my understanding of your problem is that you want to deploy to different places
2015-09-09T16:20:37Z Xof: so you can unload them, and write an init-hook that knows where they will be after deployment
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2015-09-09T16:33:49Z DeadTrickster: jasom, yep it compiles them while loading
2015-09-09T16:34:12Z DeadTrickster: Xof, thanks for the idea
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2015-09-09T17:40:42Z jackdaniel: if anyone could proofread this I would be grateful (https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/aaa3711d9a612dda948c), documentation draft for a small lib
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2015-09-09T17:52:13Z Fare: sorry, clicked closed by mistake
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2015-09-09T17:53:13Z Fare: jackdaniel, where is YOUR SIGCHLD handler? Are you sure it's safe?
2015-09-09T17:53:17Z jackdaniel: np, figured that out
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2015-09-09T17:54:11Z jackdaniel: I've mentioned SIGCHLD, because waitpid function from posix might behave funny when SIGCHLD occurs
2015-09-09T17:54:19Z Firedancer: Hey, how do you do simple "do until you get value you want" loop? All examples seem to go through a list in loop, but I want to just call function seeded with random value until it get right kind of value
2015-09-09T17:54:40Z Shinmera: (loop until whatever do things)
2015-09-09T17:54:52Z Shinmera: whatever and things being forms.
2015-09-09T17:55:46Z jackdaniel: (at least that's what I've read from comment in the code)
2015-09-09T17:56:01Z Firedancer: thanks Shinmera
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2015-09-09T17:56:52Z Fare: does ECL catch SIGCHLD ?
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2015-09-09T17:57:22Z jackdaniel: ECL catches all signals (except a few exceptions)
2015-09-09T17:57:37Z jackdaniel: and user can install his own handler, which is dispatched by ECL "real" one
2015-09-09T17:58:30Z jackdaniel: that is - user has to use ECL interface to register his own handler
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2015-09-09T18:01:12Z jackdaniel: at least it's the default behavior
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2015-09-09T18:05:03Z Fare: what does ECL do with SIGCHLD ?
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2015-09-09T18:05:30Z Fare: where is that defined?
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2015-09-09T18:07:09Z Fare: so you have a race condition between ecl_waitpid and your SIGCHLD handler, it seems
2015-09-09T18:07:42Z Fare: because you are updating two fields, in a non-atomic way.
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2015-09-09T18:10:56Z Fare: (that's a guess, I haven't looked enough to prove it)
2015-09-09T18:12:42Z mordocai: If I wanted to play with "microservices" as multiple lisp processes on the same machine, what communication protocol would you recommend? I don't really want to do a full REST interface, and ideally i'd be sending lisp structures as the data. Should I just do sockets and send lisp data structures over them?
2015-09-09T18:13:14Z mordocai: If it works out I want to use it for a toy project of mine that may need it to be relatively fast.
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2015-09-09T18:13:42Z jackdaniel: Fare: potential race seems to be handled there, but apparently something goes wrong
2015-09-09T18:14:30Z jackdaniel: all signal handling is in src/c/unixint.d, but it's a big file
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2015-09-09T18:27:05Z loz1: hi, had anybody tried lem?
2015-09-09T18:27:23Z loz1: i'm running (lem:lem) and nothing happens
2015-09-09T18:28:29Z Xach has not tried lem
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2015-09-09T18:32:38Z otwieracz: What's lem?
2015-09-09T18:32:51Z Fare: attila_lendvai, I'd like your feedback on chapter 5.
2015-09-09T18:33:33Z attila_lendvai: hi Fare! ok, send the stuff! I get to read 4 meanwhile
2015-09-09T18:33:54Z attila_lendvai starts to look for that tab among 50 some
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2015-09-09T18:34:52Z varjag: lunar excursion module?
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2015-09-09T18:38:23Z loz1: otwieracz: minimal emacs-like editor in cl
2015-09-09T18:38:29Z otwieracz: ok
2015-09-09T18:38:31Z loz1: otwieracz: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
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2015-09-09T18:40:47Z jasom: mordocai: the best IPC I've found so-far is cl-store to encode and pzmq to send.
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2015-09-09T18:42:13Z jasom: mordocai: but most people seem to prefer something like lparallel and doing it all in a single process
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2015-09-09T18:42:30Z Fare: attila_lendvai, it's on the blog
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2015-09-09T18:44:02Z jasom: mordocai: if you want blazing performance, then use a custom serialization format tuned for the sort of data you have and build ontop of one of the non-blocking-io libraries, but that's a *lot* more work than cl-stor plus pzmq
2015-09-09T18:44:45Z attila_lendvai: hu.dwim.serializer can help with some of the performance compared to cl-store
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2015-09-09T18:45:23Z mordocai: jasom: I specifically want multi-process so lparallel probably won't work for me. I'll look at cl-store/hu.dwim.serializer + pzmq then.
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2015-09-09T18:46:57Z mordocai: jasom: The idea of the project is to learn more so I may end up trying non-blocking-io + custom format.
2015-09-09T18:48:15Z jasom: mordocai: basic-binary-ipc gives you non-blocking sockets, and there is a libev wrapper if you want to use a prepackaged event loop
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2015-09-09T18:49:52Z mordocai: jasom: Sounds good! I'll be sure to try it out as well. I think I'll implement small toys with both methods and try them out.
2015-09-09T18:50:35Z axion: jasom: i switched from cl-store to cl-conspack recently, due to the speed and flexibility
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2015-09-09T18:52:09Z mordocai: axion: I'll look at that too :)
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2015-09-09T19:31:32Z ssake_: loz1: It uses ncurses, you need to launch sbcl form terminal and execute (lem:lem) there
2015-09-09T19:34:14Z Cthulhux-: hmm
2015-09-09T19:34:20Z Cthulhux-: why is there no ccl on openbsd?
2015-09-09T19:34:20Z Cthulhux-: :/
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2015-09-09T19:36:44Z dwchandler: Cthulhux-: here you go... http://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/guide.html
2015-09-09T19:36:45Z dwchandler: :)
2015-09-09T19:37:12Z Cthulhux-: that's a bad answer :p
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2015-09-09T19:38:56Z Xach: Cthulhux-: I don't know the real reason, but one possible reason is "lack of customer demand"
2015-09-09T19:39:46Z dwchandler: Essentially, yes
2015-09-09T19:40:03Z Cthulhux-: :-/
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2015-09-09T19:40:12Z Cthulhux-: ok ... time to become an openbsd maintainer -.-
2015-09-09T19:41:02Z dwchandler: Cthulhux-: Often it's not that hard. I made a couple of openbsd ports over the years. If I can, you can
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2015-09-09T19:42:06Z Cthulhux-: i made three freebsd ports
2015-09-09T19:42:08Z loz1: ssake_: thanks, ye, I was trying from silme
2015-09-09T19:42:09Z dwchandler: Is CCL on freebsd? If so, then making a port for openbsd is probably not too bad
2015-09-09T19:42:13Z Cthulhux-: :-)
2015-09-09T19:42:17Z Cthulhux-: yes, it is
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2015-09-09T19:42:39Z dwchandler: openbsd ports are not *too* different from freebsd
2015-09-09T19:42:51Z Cthulhux-: can i convert them?
2015-09-09T19:42:53Z rme: The possibly hard bits in getting ccl running on OpenBSD involve differences in signal handling and signal contexts.
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2015-09-09T19:52:27Z rme: Cthulhux-: What I'm trying to say is that porting CCL to a new operating system would take a couple of wizard-weeks. It requires some detailed knowledge of how CCL works.
2015-09-09T19:53:58Z Cthulhux-: oh
2015-09-09T19:54:00Z Cthulhux-: ok :(
2015-09-09T19:54:09Z dwchandler: rme: unless the freebsd port shows most of that
2015-09-09T19:54:30Z mprelude: dwchandler: freebsd and openbsd are *very* different systems.
2015-09-09T19:55:05Z dwchandler: indeed, but not as different as openbsd and linux or windows
2015-09-09T19:55:13Z n2kra: nurses apps outside a term, I started inspecting an rewrap vs not sbcl for *standard-input*, :cooked vs :raw ???
2015-09-09T19:56:03Z mprelude: dwchandler: No, but it wont just be a case of assuming the signals are the same. The 2 kernels are very different.
2015-09-09T19:57:49Z dwchandler: it's not going to work, trying to get me to port ccl to openbsd just to show you ;-)
2015-09-09T19:58:05Z mprelude: I dont use openbsd :)
2015-09-09T19:58:09Z mprelude: I do use freebsd
2015-09-09T19:58:21Z dwchandler: I use both
2015-09-09T19:58:32Z mprelude: But mostly just Linux these days
2015-09-09T20:00:43Z Cthulhux-: booooooo!
2015-09-09T20:00:51Z Cthulhux-: (i use both too ;-))
2015-09-09T20:01:29Z Cthulhux-:  <dwchandler> it's not going to work, trying to get me to port ccl to openbsd just to show you ;-) << yes please!
2015-09-09T20:01:34Z Cthulhux-: don't want to go back to sbcl :
2015-09-09T20:02:02Z dwchandler: *sigh*
2015-09-09T20:02:16Z pjb will port ccl to any system for money…
2015-09-09T20:02:16Z mprelude: What's wrong with sbcl?
2015-09-09T20:02:34Z mprelude: I've only used sbcl so far.
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2015-09-09T20:03:35Z dwchandler: well, the freebsd port of ccl is trivial, but then ccl claims support for freebsd
2015-09-09T20:03:37Z Cthulhux-: ccl is faster.
2015-09-09T20:03:47Z Cthulhux-: and makes better binaries :-)
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2015-09-09T20:03:57Z dwchandler: all told, I *think* getting it to work on openbsd shouldn't be that hard
2015-09-09T20:04:11Z Cthulhux-: try it, i'll help where i can ^^
2015-09-09T20:04:13Z rme: If you really want ccl on OpenBSD, money can make that happen. Otherwise, I doubt if you'll interest a CCL hacker in doing it.  In any case, supporting OpenBSD in addition to Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, OS X, and Windows inot all that appealing.
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2015-09-09T20:04:43Z rme: dwchandler: Are you familiar with CCL internals?
2015-09-09T20:04:49Z dwchandler: nope
2015-09-09T20:04:53Z Xach: rme: which ports did you do?
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2015-09-09T20:05:56Z n2kra: should (require :cocoa) still work or is S
2015-09-09T20:06:23Z n2kra: osx 10.8 too old
2015-09-09T20:07:40Z rme: dwchandler: In that case, I think that you don't have enough information to estimate the difficulty of getting ccl running on OpenBSD.
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2015-09-09T20:08:04Z mprelude: Is this a good place to turn money into development?
2015-09-09T20:08:29Z mprelude: I think right now I have more money than effort-willingness to fix cl-mongo.
2015-09-09T20:08:51Z Xach: mprelude: there is a glut of lisp hackers on the market! rates have never been lower!
2015-09-09T20:10:35Z rme: Xach: I don't remember.  I think gbyers did nearly all of the OS porting. I made the 32-bit Windows version run on 64-bit Windows, but let's not let that get around.
2015-09-09T20:11:14Z rme: n2kra: I thtink (require 'cocoa) should still work on 10.8.
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2015-09-09T20:18:15Z n2kra: Temp Bundlebits has a no- run icon, I just set run from anywhere (unsigned) also
2015-09-09T20:19:06Z aeth: There should be a Lispstarter, kickstarter for Lisps.
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2015-09-09T20:22:14Z rme: n2kra: you can't double-click temp bundle.app.  If you want a double-clickable app, do (require 'cocoa-application)
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2015-09-09T20:31:25Z bjorkintosh: there's gotta be a list somewhere of books which use lisp as a notation.
2015-09-09T20:31:34Z bjorkintosh: anyone know of one?
2015-09-09T20:32:01Z bjorkintosh: i just got 'principles of biomedical informatics'.
2015-09-09T20:32:19Z bjorkintosh: found it somehow on amazon. and it's pretty big on using lisp for that sorta thing.
2015-09-09T20:32:20Z n2kra: Thanks that was it
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2015-09-09T20:45:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I would definitely donate money towards a LispOS that's usable on real hardware
2015-09-09T20:46:42Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: how do you define "usable"?
2015-09-09T20:46:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I.e. that I could actually use for ordinary tasks
2015-09-09T20:47:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Web browsing, email, etc.
2015-09-09T20:47:16Z DeadTrickster: fiddlerwoaroof, also minecraft
2015-09-09T20:47:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good point
2015-09-09T20:47:22Z bjorkintosh: and Quake.
2015-09-09T20:47:29Z bjorkintosh: and likely a chess program.
2015-09-09T20:47:34Z bjorkintosh: who will bell the cat?
2015-09-09T20:47:52Z DeadTrickster: Quake will run in the browser
2015-09-09T20:47:59Z bjorkintosh: fine.
2015-09-09T20:48:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, initially, I'd be satisfied if it could run most of the libraries on quicklisp
2015-09-09T20:48:10Z bjorkintosh: everything can run in the browser.
2015-09-09T20:48:21Z DeadTrickster: yep that is why we need OS and browser
2015-09-09T20:48:27Z bjorkintosh: so why not make an os which only serves to run a browser?
2015-09-09T20:48:33Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-09-09T20:48:42Z bjorkintosh: 'cause i mean... chromebook is obviously killing it!
2015-09-09T20:48:54Z DeadTrickster: lisp is next javascript
2015-09-09T20:49:00Z DeadTrickster: all of them
2015-09-09T20:49:01Z bjorkintosh: :)
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2015-09-09T20:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I basically use my laptop as a thin client
2015-09-09T20:50:06Z bjorkintosh: to what? the rest of it?
2015-09-09T20:50:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: log in to laptop -> ssh into my tmux session on my desktop
2015-09-09T20:50:21Z DeadTrickster: fiddlerwoaroof, so why you want your OS to be written in lisp? I mean you can use stumpwm for example
2015-09-09T20:50:21Z bjorkintosh: or to the NSA's approved list of monitored programs? :)
2015-09-09T20:50:23Z failproofshark: why dont you just use your desktop?
2015-09-09T20:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: failproofshark: because this way I can use it from anywhere
2015-09-09T20:51:12Z Xach: lukego mentioned he does something similar.
2015-09-09T20:51:37Z bjorkintosh: why? don't you miss the days of a room sized computer you could leave behind and have a sane life after work?
2015-09-09T20:53:08Z Xach: i used my laptop for hacking for a year or so, then got a really fast desktop with a big screen, so now i use that most of the time.
2015-09-09T20:53:13Z Xach: i do like being able to walk away from it.
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2015-09-09T20:54:06Z failproofshark: mmm.... big dual screens
2015-09-09T20:54:21Z Xach can fit so many emacs frames on the big screen
2015-09-09T20:54:23Z rme: I worked on a small laptop for two months this summer.  I was really pleased to get back to my desktop system with the big screen.
2015-09-09T20:54:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like to work from coffee shops
2015-09-09T20:54:37Z DeadTrickster: I use vmware stuff. VM running on 24Gb RAM machine and I connect to it from home
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2015-09-09T20:55:59Z DeadTrickster:  if I go to places with bad connection I just copy VM files on my laptop.
2015-09-09T20:56:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's been a long time since I've felt the desire to use something that can't run in a terminal window.
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2015-09-09T20:57:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (except, of course, a web browser)
2015-09-09T20:57:25Z Oladon: e-links
2015-09-09T20:57:25Z dim: fiddlerwoaroof: s/terminal/emacs/
2015-09-09T20:57:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm odd, I use vim
2015-09-09T20:58:07Z DeadTrickster: btw can I run symbolics software in vm? where can I download vm image?
2015-09-09T20:58:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: (neovim of late)
2015-09-09T20:58:29Z DeadTrickster: fiddlerwoaroof, vim and lisp? heretic
2015-09-09T20:58:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've tried to learn to like emacs several times
2015-09-09T20:59:18Z rick-monster: so I am now getting pretty good realtime performance out of ccl jack bindings - realtime kernel on some pretty humble atom server is getting me below 10ms even with the same usb soundcard. And regular emacs/slime usage doesn't drop audio frames as with the sbcl/incudine stuff...
2015-09-09T20:59:27Z bjorkintosh: fiddlerwoaroof, get a foot pedal for ctrl and alt ... you'll be fine after that :)
2015-09-09T20:59:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-09T20:59:41Z DeadTrickster: good point
2015-09-09T20:59:55Z rick-monster: Anyone able to hazard a guess as to whether a fast desktop machine would get latency down further?
2015-09-09T21:00:05Z Oladon: bjorkintosh: ahaha, that's a genius idea. I now want to see it implemented.
2015-09-09T21:00:32Z bjorkintosh: Oladon, it's doable and been done a few times!
2015-09-09T21:00:42Z failproofshark: the only true hardware interface to emacs is an organ
2015-09-09T21:00:44Z bjorkintosh: i haven't though.
2015-09-09T21:00:47Z failproofshark: anything less is childs play
2015-09-09T21:00:48Z Oladon: bjorkintosh: definitely doable... have any links for where it's been done? I'd love to see it :)
2015-09-09T21:00:48Z DeadTrickster: Oladon, http://www.fentek-ind.com/FootPedal.htm#.VfCd9HUVhBc
2015-09-09T21:00:57Z Oladon: DeadTrickster: thanks
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2015-09-09T21:01:06Z Oladon: oh, that's just the hardware
2015-09-09T21:01:08Z Oladon: hardware's easy
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2015-09-09T21:01:29Z DeadTrickster: `foot mousing devices`
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2015-09-09T21:02:11Z DeadTrickster: also http://emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches
2015-09-09T21:02:18Z bjorkintosh: Oladon, and then you map the keys. and you're set.
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2015-09-09T21:02:38Z Oladon: bjorkintosh: Right, implementation isn't my concern. I just want a video of someone using it with emacs, because I think it'd be amusing.
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2015-09-09T21:05:11Z bjorkintosh: Oladon, emacs? foot? video? admit it you just want to see hairy hobbit feet moving about.
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2015-09-09T21:06:36Z mezzano: . . .
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2015-09-09T21:08:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a common lisp library that does highlighting and programming language detection?
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2015-09-09T21:08:41Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: colorize, sort of
2015-09-09T21:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been thinking of trying to get pygments to work through clpython . . .
2015-09-09T21:08:49Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: it is part of lisppaste
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2015-09-09T21:11:14Z bjorkintosh: Xach, how large a monitor did you get?
2015-09-09T21:11:31Z Xach: bjorkintosh: I got a 27" iMac. (a few months before the 5ks came out, boooo)
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2015-09-09T21:11:56Z bjorkintosh: ah nice. i'm considering a 34" ultra sharp. might be overkill.
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2015-09-09T21:12:35Z Xach: after a certain number of emacs frames it is overkill
2015-09-09T21:12:42Z bjorkintosh: hahah
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2015-09-09T21:18:22Z rick-monster: Currently I believe a cpu with larger memory caches and faster clock (e.g an i7) will automatically give shorter pauses due to ccl's egc - but is that too simplistic?
2015-09-09T21:20:38Z DeadTrickster: why there so many warnings while compiling sbcl?
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2015-09-09T21:26:55Z Xach: DeadTrickster: when compiling sbcl itself? or compiling other stuff with sbcl?
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2015-09-09T21:33:10Z DeadTrickster: Xach, when compiling sbcl itself
2015-09-09T21:34:15Z DeadTrickster: in erlang world it is usual to treat warnings as errors for example so I'm confused every time I'm compiling sbcl
2015-09-09T21:34:23Z Shinmera: Because SBCL is a gigantic project and eliminating warnings is not exactly a high priority issue.
2015-09-09T21:35:12Z Shinmera: A lot of the things you see are probably also just style-warnings, rather than actual warnings.
2015-09-09T21:35:13Z DeadTrickster: but sometimes warning hides bug or bugs
2015-09-09T21:35:29Z Shinmera: You're free to eliminate them if they bother you so much then. It's open source after all!
2015-09-09T21:35:44Z DeadTrickster: I see undefined type warnings, warning from C code compilation, etc
2015-09-09T21:36:04Z Bicyclidine: it'll stil work in the end.
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2015-09-09T21:37:31Z resttime: I think there's a kitten of death warning when you run SBCL on windows :)
2015-09-09T21:37:54Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: compiling SBCL involves many bootstrapping issues since everything has to be built from scratch in the host environment. douglas katzmann is doing some heroic refactoring to reduce the number of such boostrapping-related warnings, but a certain number of them are probably unavoidable
2015-09-09T21:38:02Z Shinmera: resttime: that's been removed because someone got offended, if I remember correctly.
2015-09-09T21:38:29Z resttime: oh... i feel kind of sad now
2015-09-09T21:38:30Z scymtym: Shinmera: it has been rephrased more "professionally"
2015-09-09T21:38:33Z Xof: it got removed because it was an unhideable warning
2015-09-09T21:38:44Z DeadTrickster: right
2015-09-09T21:38:55Z Xof: and people wanted to deploy even despite the warning, but didn't want to rebuild the runtime
2015-09-09T21:39:06Z Xof: so, we listened to our users.  A bit, anyway
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2015-09-09T21:39:54Z resttime: Xof: makes sense
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2015-09-09T21:40:40Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, any way in my view sbcl building process is too noisy
2015-09-09T21:41:13Z Xof: thank you for your view
2015-09-09T21:41:14Z DeadTrickster: it even print assembler code at the end
2015-09-09T21:41:33Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: i'm not saying the warnings are a good thing. i tried to explain the underlying reasons
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2015-09-09T21:41:55Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, I got it just ranting
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2015-09-09T21:47:51Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I always wanted to ask - why you remove software form quicklisp?
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2015-09-09T21:49:27Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I usually remove it when it no longer builds and when neither the author nor anyone else wants to maintain it
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2015-09-09T21:49:50Z Xach: DeadTrickster: or if the author wants it removed for some other reason
2015-09-09T21:50:26Z DeadTrickster: also I just noticed you use plain http for archive why not https?
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2015-09-09T21:51:03Z DeadTrickster: It is hard to imagine man in the middle attack here but...
2015-09-09T21:51:20Z DeadTrickster: even my grandma uses https)
2015-09-09T21:51:36Z Xach: DeadTrickster: SSL support is hard to bootstrap
2015-09-09T21:51:55Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I'd like to add more defense against man-in-the-middle. it's a valid concern. I'd like to do that in conjunction with upgrading to https after installation.
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2015-09-09T21:54:45Z DeadTrickster: Xach, you can use curl or wget for bootstrapping
2015-09-09T21:54:59Z DeadTrickster: don't know what to do with windows though
2015-09-09T21:55:06Z Shinmera: You really can't do that.
2015-09-09T21:55:15Z Shinmera: Not even on linux.
2015-09-09T21:55:21Z DeadTrickster: why
2015-09-09T21:55:21Z Xach: DeadTrickster: windows is the issue. although commercial implementations on windows have ssl built-in.
2015-09-09T21:55:31Z Xach: "an" issue, not "the" issue
2015-09-09T21:55:35Z Shinmera: Because it might not be installed. Any kind of external dependency is bad.
2015-09-09T21:56:46Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, I thought it is part of unix philosophy - do what you can do best and rely on others, Or this part can't be applied to lisp?
2015-09-09T21:56:57Z Shinmera: Lisp is not Unix.
2015-09-09T21:57:07Z DeadTrickster: I understand this
2015-09-09T21:57:21Z Shinmera: Then why are you trying to apply its principles to it?
2015-09-09T21:57:37Z DeadTrickster: I do not understand what looks like 'not invented here' stuff
2015-09-09T21:58:00Z Shinmera: If there was an SSL implementation in Lisp the problem would be mostly solved.
2015-09-09T21:58:05Z Shinmera: Alas there currently is not.
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2015-09-09T21:58:59Z DeadTrickster: dunno I think using curl or wget is more practical at least right now
2015-09-09T21:59:18Z DeadTrickster: btw
2015-09-09T21:59:24Z DeadTrickster: curl -O https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp
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2015-09-09T22:04:08Z Xach: DeadTrickster: oh, yes, sure. and that's what I recommend on the start page.
2015-09-09T22:05:20Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I copy-pasted this line
2015-09-09T22:05:26Z DeadTrickster: from https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-09-09T22:05:41Z DeadTrickster: you already assuming users have curl installed then
2015-09-09T22:05:59Z DeadTrickster: and gpg and sbcl :-)
2015-09-09T22:06:08Z Shinmera: It's just a tutorial. I'm pretty sure users are smart enough to figure out a way to download it if they don't have curl.
2015-09-09T22:06:17Z DeadTrickster: exactly
2015-09-09T22:06:25Z Shinmera: What's your point?
2015-09-09T22:06:34Z XachX: DeadTrickster: examples are not normative.
2015-09-09T22:06:56Z DeadTrickster: that is why I'm 100% quicklisp can rely on curl being installed especially if it mentioned in the docs or tutorial on the first page
2015-09-09T22:07:27Z Shinmera: You aren't making any sense.
2015-09-09T22:07:29Z Bicyclidine: non sequitur, and even if it wasn't do you need to bug him about this?
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2015-09-09T22:09:34Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, you just said users are smart enough to download curl I'm saying exactly the same
2015-09-09T22:09:39Z Shinmera: No
2015-09-09T22:09:47Z Shinmera: Don't put words in my mouth.
2015-09-09T22:09:47Z DeadTrickster: how so?
2015-09-09T22:10:13Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera> It's just a tutorial. I'm pretty sure users are smart enough to figure out a way to download it if they don't have curl.
2015-09-09T22:10:16Z Shinmera: They can download the quicklisp.lisp file if they don't have curl.
2015-09-09T22:10:22Z Shinmera: Curl isn't the only way to download a file.
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2015-09-09T22:10:43Z DeadTrickster: ok now I understand you better thanks
2015-09-09T22:10:45Z Shinmera: And I certainly would not go and install curl anywhere if it weren't installed already.
2015-09-09T22:11:15Z DeadTrickster: why?
2015-09-09T22:11:25Z Shinmera: Because I don't need it.
2015-09-09T22:11:27Z DeadTrickster: is it considered harmful now?
2015-09-09T22:12:01Z DeadTrickster: you will need it if QL will use it
2015-09-09T22:12:12Z Bicyclidine: you are jumping to many, many conclusions
2015-09-09T22:12:13Z Shinmera: But it won't, so your point is moot.
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2015-09-09T22:13:56Z DeadTrickster: Shinmera, let see, I personally don't care that much after all. Just curious how it will be implemented
2015-09-09T22:17:10Z Xach: DeadTrickster: I plan to make the bootstrap file available through https, along with its signature file (Step 1). I plan to embed a public key and signature checking software in the bootstrap file (step 2). I plan to signature-check the client when it is downloaded via http (step 3). I plan to put file digests in a metadata file, sig-check that metadata file, and digest check the archives (step 4)
2015-09-09T22:19:01Z DeadTrickster: Xach, or just use curl/wget (Step 1). Also please note I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant - this is your software and your work. I just don't understand why this needs to be so complex.
2015-09-09T22:19:09Z Fare: will the bootstrap file include a tarball with all the crypto libraries you need?
2015-09-09T22:19:14Z Xach: Fare: No.
2015-09-09T22:19:27Z DeadTrickster: also what about third-party distributions
2015-09-09T22:19:37Z Xach: DeadTrickster: curl and wget are not sufficiently universal.
2015-09-09T22:19:53Z Fare: Xach: so how will it check the checksum for the things it itself downloads?
2015-09-09T22:20:07Z Fare: pgp?
2015-09-09T22:20:09Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I understand this
2015-09-09T22:20:55Z DeadTrickster: also why you are checking checksum of the filed downloaded through https it's a bit redundant isn't it? or it is just integrity checking?
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2015-09-09T22:21:10Z Xach: DeadTrickster: The archive files are not downloaded through https.
2015-09-09T22:21:21Z Xach: Fare: sha-512 code in CL.
2015-09-09T22:21:45Z Fare: ok, so "all the libraries you need", which is just one sha-512 implementation.
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2015-09-09T22:22:12Z Xach: Fare: It isn't a library - it will be part of the bootstrap code as a file, or part of a file, along with the signature checking code.
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2015-09-09T22:25:28Z Fare: so... transcluded library, in the style of asdf and uiop
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2015-09-09T22:27:01Z XachX: No.
2015-09-09T22:27:25Z XachX: It is just code. Not from anywhere else.
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2015-09-09T22:28:35Z Cthulhux-: can i develop mocl applications with a desktop lisp?
2015-09-09T22:29:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I think plump mishandles the iframe tag
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2015-09-09T22:30:26Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh?
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2015-09-09T22:31:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154991
2015-09-09T22:31:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: The iframe shouldn't be serialized as <iframe/> but as <iframe></iframe>
2015-09-09T22:31:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Otherwise, the browser will eat everything after the iframe.
2015-09-09T22:32:23Z Shinmera: Plump serialises to XHTML
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2015-09-09T22:32:44Z Shinmera: In which <iframe/> is legal.
2015-09-09T22:33:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm
2015-09-09T22:33:26Z Shinmera: There's currently no support for different serialisation modes, but writing your own should be a very trivial task.
2015-09-09T22:33:53Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/blob/master/dom.lisp#L606
2015-09-09T22:35:00Z Shinmera: I'll be right back.
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2015-09-09T22:43:48Z _3x0F: Ehi can someone help me?
2015-09-09T22:44:05Z Bicyclidine: it's possible.
2015-09-09T22:44:31Z _3x0F: (define Dispari (lambda (n) (cond((eq? n 0) #f) ((eq? n 1) #t) (#t (Dispari(- n 1))))))
2015-09-09T22:44:31Z _3x0F: (define Estrai_Dispari (lambda (l) (cond((eq? l '()) '()) ((Dispari(car l)) (cons(car l)(Estrai_Dispari(cdr l))))
2015-09-09T22:44:31Z _3x0F: 																					(#t (Estrai_Dispari(cdr l))))))
2015-09-09T22:44:33Z _3x0F: (define Costruisci (lambda (n) (Costruisci_Temp(n n))))
2015-09-09T22:44:35Z _3x0F: (define Costruisci_Temp (lambda (n c) (cond((eq? c 0) 'c) (#t (cons n (Costruisci_Temp n (- c 1)))))))
2015-09-09T22:44:37Z _3x0F: (define Append (lambda (l1 l2) (cond((eq? l1 '()) l2) ((eq? l2 '()) l1) (#t (cons(car l1) (Append(cdr l1) l2))))))
2015-09-09T22:44:39Z _3x0F: (define ripetidispari (lambda (l) (cond((eq? l '()) '()) (#t (Append(Costruisci(car(Estrai_Dispari l)))(ripetidispari(cdr l)))))))
2015-09-09T22:44:48Z _3x0F: it's ok?
2015-09-09T22:45:50Z Bicyclidine: You want #scheme, and in the future avoid pasting large blocks into irc.
2015-09-09T22:47:59Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: the easiest thing to do would be to define an :around method on serialize-object specialised on ELEMENT, do a check if it's one that needs to be expanded, and otherwise CALL-NEXT-METHOD.
2015-09-09T22:48:19Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Though I would not advise for that method unless you are sure that no other library or program in your environment might use Plump.
2015-09-09T22:51:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: would appending a text node to iframes change the expansion?
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2015-09-09T22:52:03Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: The answer's here: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/blob/master/dom.lisp#L617
2015-09-09T22:53:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Makes sense
2015-09-09T22:54:22Z Shinmera: I'll open an issue ticket for this though.
2015-09-09T22:54:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I might just switch to serving XHTML5, if the browsers render that correctly
2015-09-09T22:54:53Z Shinmera: Has been working just fine for me so far, with the exception of cloudflare mucking it up by injecting non-xhtml5 stuff into the document sometimes.
2015-09-09T22:55:18Z Shinmera: But that can be fixed easily enough.
2015-09-09T22:55:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I right to presume that (serialize (parse ... )) will correct any malformed tags?
2015-09-09T22:56:04Z Shinmera: It will if it can grock it the way you expect it to.
2015-09-09T22:56:29Z Shinmera: Some malformed things will result in a big mess due to ambiguity in how it can be read, but in general it should work.
2015-09-09T22:56:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: My main concern is preventing the RSS feed from messing up my layout.
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2015-09-09T23:34:10Z pjb: Cthulhux-: this is indeed how you would do it, develop your application with a desktop lisp, and use mocl to translate your lisp code to C, to be compiled by the Android or iOS IDE.
2015-09-09T23:34:58Z pjb: Cthulhux-: given that ecl is maintained much more reactively than mocl, I would however advise you to try to use ecl instead.
2015-09-09T23:35:37Z Cthulhux-: why is mocl such a big thing if ecl can do the same?
2015-09-09T23:35:53Z PuercoPop: Any ideas/suggestions on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/3kbfke/request_for_comments_implementing_python_style/
2015-09-09T23:35:58Z pjb: Cthulhux-: It doesn't do the same at all.
2015-09-09T23:36:07Z Cthulhux-: so why would i? :)
2015-09-09T23:36:18Z PuercoPop ponders if using reddit as a help forum is a good idea
2015-09-09T23:36:21Z pjb: Cthulhux-: mocl translate a subset of CL to C sources, and implement a kind of "implicit" FFI that is nice.
2015-09-09T23:36:26Z Cthulhux-: PuercoPop: it works
2015-09-09T23:37:00Z pjb: Cthulhux-: ECL is a full fleshed CL implementation, and it is heavier to port and integrate into the Android and foremost the iOS environment.
2015-09-09T23:37:39Z pjb: Cthulhux-: As free software, you could revive clicc, which is also a CL to C translator, I would guess, even of a larger subset…
2015-09-09T23:38:06Z Cthulhux-: so if i want mobile development, there is no reason for ecl at all then?
2015-09-09T23:39:05Z pjb: I would say it depends on the lisp code you're trying to run.
2015-09-09T23:39:11Z PuercoPop: Cthulhux-: It has been done and could be done. But mocl does something different than ECL
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2015-09-09T23:39:26Z pjb: If you have a large body of pre-existing CL code, you will definitely want ecl or ccl.  mocl subset is too deficient.
2015-09-09T23:40:03Z pjb: On the other hand, if you don't use much CL libraries, and write just a bunch of new lisp functions specifically for mocl, it may be ok.  (But I would wonder in this case, why you would use lisp).
2015-09-09T23:40:04Z PuercoPop: mocl Compiles Ahead of Time (AoT) all the lisp code. I think it looses some of the interactivity after the code has been compiled.
2015-09-09T23:40:46Z Cthulhux-: pjb, technically i could continue using java for android
2015-09-09T23:40:56Z Cthulhux-: i'm just curious about the nerd level here :-)
2015-09-09T23:41:19Z Cthulhux-: there is no reason for me to use lisp, i just want to :p
2015-09-09T23:42:02Z pjb: 192 days ago I posted a bunch of bugs on wukix, and 1- no other bug has been reported since, 2- none of the bugs have been corrected since.
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2015-09-09T23:42:38Z Cthulhux-: oh?
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2015-09-09T23:44:43Z Cthulhux-: ecl doesn't look like it should work weith mobile development either :) https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android
2015-09-09T23:44:47Z pjb: Cthulhux-: you could check with Daniel, I don't know the current status, whether the android branch has been merged into the master or not.  But in anycase, you have two options with ecl on Android: 1- compiling ecl library in the ndk and linking it, calling ecl thru the ndk from the Java application.  Or 2- fork the ecl executable from the Java application.  In both cases, remember that ecl requires a gcc to be able to compile to
2015-09-09T23:44:47Z pjb: native code (thru C).  Otherwise it will just compile to byte code and run run-time compiled code with a virtual machine (just like clisp).
2015-09-09T23:45:20Z pjb: Cthulhux-: you're not making any sense, ecl is being used in several Android applications!
2015-09-09T23:45:32Z Cthulhux-: like which? :o
2015-09-09T23:47:20Z pjb: https://www.appannie.com/apps/google-play/app/ar.com.playnu.clrepl/# https://www.appannie.com/apps/google-play/app/jp.yhonda/#
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2015-09-09T23:48:21Z Cthulhux-: sweet.
2015-09-09T23:48:37Z Cthulhux-: it seems that i'm an easy target for advertisers.
2015-09-09T23:48:39Z Cthulhux-: :/
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2015-09-10T00:00:33Z bizarrefish: lo all
2015-09-10T00:01:39Z Cthulhux-: lo
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2015-09-10T00:41:18Z Fare: pjb: wukix is not under active development, is it?
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2015-09-10T00:55:05Z Xach: It is still under active development.
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2015-09-10T03:11:34Z sigjuice: Xach: how about something like OpenBSD's signify which is based on http://cr.yp.to/sigs.html, I think.
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2015-09-10T03:14:29Z XachX: sigjuice: interesting
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2015-09-10T03:18:21Z sigjuice: http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/index.html has more details, I think
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2015-09-10T03:23:19Z jasom: sigjuice, XachX libsodium has dynamically linkable interfaces to that algorithm, I believe.  There is at least one aborted effort to make lisp bindings to libsodium, but if all you want is a single signing algorithm it's only about an hours worth of work to pull that in (you need 3 functions I think).
2015-09-10T03:25:06Z sigjuice: I have only casually looked at the Quicklisp code, but I think it wants to be in pure lisp so it is easy to bootstrap
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2015-09-10T03:29:35Z jasom: implementing secure algorithms is complicated in lisp, assuming you want to avoid side-channel attacks
2015-09-10T03:29:56Z sigjuice: there is also http://tweetnacl.cr.yp.to .  I don't at all know what I am talking about though.
2015-09-10T03:30:56Z jasom: sigjuice: I implemented salsa20 in lisp from the estream reference implementation; I haven't looked at the Ed25519 algorithm yet
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2015-09-10T03:33:21Z jasom: It might actually be better to put the assembly implementation into RAM and call it through FFI; that would be easier than ensuring no data-dependent branches on every implementation...
2015-09-10T03:33:37Z jasom: I suppose it's a non-starter for abcl (and any non x86oid lisp)
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2015-09-10T03:34:35Z XachX: What is a side channel attack on signature verification?
2015-09-10T03:35:37Z jasom: XachX: timing attacks; it's a non-issue if an attacker cannot cause you to perform a calculation with your private key.
2015-09-10T03:36:18Z XachX: I don't think it's an issue in my use case.
2015-09-10T03:36:24Z jasom: If you only need verification in the client, implementing that in lisp is no problem.
2015-09-10T03:36:33Z XachX: Just verification
2015-09-10T03:36:48Z jasom: I might even be able to do that tomorrow if you're interested; DJB's referrence implementations are very readable
2015-09-10T03:38:37Z jasom: you would need a secure hash implementation (the reference uses sha-512)...
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2015-09-10T03:40:42Z jasom: ironclad does have sha-512
2015-09-10T03:42:24Z sigjuice: why not just copy whatever OpenBSD is doing for signify?
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2015-09-10T03:43:56Z jasom: sigjuice: they use ed25519
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2015-09-10T03:49:15Z jasom: sigjuice: it looks like a good system, and is adaptable to quicklisp, though Xach will have to decide how often to rotate the keys
2015-09-10T03:50:02Z jasom: OpenBSD uses a new key with each realease, and includes the key for the next release in each release, allowing a chain of keys.  I definitely don't update quicklisp each month, so monthy key rotations might not be the best idea
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2015-09-10T04:11:02Z sigjuice: jasom: it has never been clear to me how openbsd started the chain of trust with the very first signed release
2015-09-10T04:12:52Z sigjuice: I guess I can trust an openbsd install from an official CD that I buy and then trust any upgrades I do to it
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2015-09-10T04:15:28Z pjb: sigjuice: because the NSA or your local equivalent cannot substitute snail mail to your address…
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2015-09-10T04:19:38Z kristof: Who cares about security? I am a shmuck.
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2015-09-10T04:25:14Z loke: kristof: I don't see much of a reason to use openbsd if you don't..
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2015-09-10T04:29:20Z sigjuice: me neither
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2015-09-10T04:34:33Z ecraven: what is the most succinct way for a nested loop that counts x from 1 to 10 and y from 2 to 20?
2015-09-10T04:34:43Z ecraven: (so in total 200 "steps")
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2015-09-10T04:36:05Z p_nathan: ecraven: (loop for x from 1 upto 10 do (loop for y from 2 upto 20 do (format t "~a - ~a~&" x y)))
2015-09-10T04:36:31Z p_nathan: (ad hoc snippet, use at own risk)
2015-09-10T04:36:41Z ecraven: p_nathan: this still seems very verbose :-/
2015-09-10T04:36:48Z ecraven: (not in general, but in maths-heavy code)
2015-09-10T04:37:18Z Bike: you could put some macros in if you want
2015-09-10T04:38:08Z p_nathan: hum, point. Might be some standard macros for math looping, otherwise write yer own macros
2015-09-10T04:40:04Z loke: If you're maths-heavy, why not simply do (loop for i from 1 to 200 do (apply #'format t "~a - ~a~%" (multiple-value-list (truncate i 200)))
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2015-09-10T04:41:02Z loke: Some errors there but you get the gist
2015-09-10T04:41:04Z Bike: the closest is dotimes. i'm fine with nesting dotimes, but you can't set where it starts from and bla bla problems.
2015-09-10T04:41:42Z Bike: if you're writing n-queens or something... well, you can come up with some domain specific abstraction, anyway.
2015-09-10T04:41:50Z ecraven: I'll look into my own macros.. something like (for* ((x 1 10) (y 2 20)) ...)
2015-09-10T04:42:14Z ecraven: well, this count-up or count-down loops happen so often, I'd likee something more succinct
2015-09-10T04:42:45Z loke: In APL, you'd be able to do this: (⍳10) ∘.foo (1+⍳20)
2015-09-10T04:43:11Z ecraven: loke: won't that be 2 - 21?
2015-09-10T04:43:32Z loke: You are right
2015-09-10T04:43:46Z ecraven: also, I cannot imagine this ever being readable (though I don't know APL)
2015-09-10T04:44:15Z loke: ⍳5 → 1 2 3 4 5
2015-09-10T04:44:17Z jasom: sigjuice: they just print them everywhere
2015-09-10T04:44:23Z Bike: APL is hard to read, to say the last
2015-09-10T04:44:34Z loke: so 1+⍳5 adds   to each element: 2 3 4 5 6
2015-09-10T04:45:02Z jasom: If you think APL is hard to read, here's a line of python I just now encountered: return ''.join([chr(sum([bits[i * 8 + j] << j for j in range(8)])) for i in range(b/8)])
2015-09-10T04:45:24Z loke: L1 ∘.F L2 takes two lists L1 and L2 and applies the function F on each paor if values from the two lists
2015-09-10T04:45:27Z jasom: the equivalent in APL would be much more readable
2015-09-10T04:46:19Z loke: So, to print a 10×10 multiplication table in APL, the code is: (⍳10)∘.×⍳10
2015-09-10T04:46:36Z loke: (no parens needed in the second one, since APL evaluates right-to-left)
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2015-09-10T04:50:29Z aeth: One-liners in general aren't very readable in most languages except in Lisp because in Lisp everything that's not top level is technically part of a one liner so it's easy to multi-line something anywhere to make it readable.
2015-09-10T04:50:33Z aeth: imo
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2015-09-10T04:52:31Z aeth: I guess the one exception would be LOOP, which can be a lot like a list comprehension in Python.
2015-09-10T04:54:26Z loke: Here's a line of APL: IH←(1+2×IV=2)/IV←1⌽5,1,(¯1+2×N×N)⍴((¯1+2×N)⍴2 3),4
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2015-09-10T04:54:40Z loke: not too bad actually. It's from this sudoku solver:
2015-09-10T04:54:44Z loke: https://www.gnu.org/software/apl/Bits_and_Pieces/sudoku.html
2015-09-10T04:55:30Z Bike: ↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵ is my fave
2015-09-10T04:56:01Z loke: Bike: Looks like code to build the grid
2015-09-10T04:56:34Z loke: Hmm, not part of this file though?
2015-09-10T04:56:47Z Bike: different program, it's one generation of conway's life
2015-09-10T04:56:55Z Bike: apparently
2015-09-10T04:56:56Z loke: Ah yes
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2015-09-10T04:58:02Z loke: doing an outer product on the booleans using ∨.∧ is clever, and something I have trouble grasping :-)
2015-09-10T04:58:11Z loke: The rest is straight-forward
2015-09-10T04:58:40Z loke: Bike: It's not a full program though. Do you have the rest of the code?
2015-09-10T04:59:44Z Bike: http://dfns.dyalog.com/n_life.htm
2015-09-10T05:03:06Z loke: Ah, NOW i understand it.
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2015-09-10T05:06:16Z rme: Hah. "Artillery in a finite manifold is a dangerous business/"
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2015-09-10T07:20:49Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-10T07:31:56Z jackdaniel: hi kami
2015-09-10T07:33:28Z jackdaniel: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/641868758647197696 – I've created a new (admitedly small) library if someone is interested
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2015-09-10T07:54:25Z jasom: someone mind checking my work in converting a line of python to lisp? http://paste.lisp.org/display/154997
2015-09-10T07:55:18Z jasom: python's R becomes rr in lisp and l becomes +l+ (it's a constant)
2015-09-10T07:56:10Z fe[nl]ix: looks fine
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2015-09-10T07:56:26Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: darnit; it's not returning the same value :(
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2015-09-10T08:08:21Z flip214: jasom: are the types as expected? is l an integer in python resp. R, too?
2015-09-10T08:09:09Z jasom: flip214: yeah, R is a list in python and a rr a vector in lisp
2015-09-10T08:09:12Z flip214: ah, sorry. that's a variable "R", not the language R
2015-09-10T08:09:25Z flip214: seems like I'm even more tired ;/
2015-09-10T08:09:45Z jasom: flip214: a, rr, and the return-value of the call to hint have all been verified to be the same
2015-09-10T08:10:08Z flip214: pk, m?
2015-09-10T08:10:14Z jasom: pk and m as well
2015-09-10T08:10:38Z flip214: "the same" as in "same ascii output"?
2015-09-10T08:10:49Z jasom: though I should probably paste into a buffer and compare; I compared by sight and they are 100+ digit integers so may have missed something
2015-09-10T08:10:52Z flip214: I guess they're floats in python, but might be integer in lisp
2015-09-10T08:11:04Z flip214: which might then give different results b/c of rounding?
2015-09-10T08:11:16Z jasom: long integers in python, bignums in lisp
2015-09-10T08:11:50Z flip214: python with gmp, or how do you represent such integers in a "long integer"??
2015-09-10T08:11:59Z jasom: flip214: python has bignums
2015-09-10T08:12:15Z flip214: then I got confused by "long integer"
2015-09-10T08:12:42Z jasom: it calls them "long integers" and appends an L to it to disambiguate from fixnums
2015-09-10T08:12:59Z jasom: older pythons would not promote fixnums to bignums, newer pythons do, IIRC
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2015-09-10T08:13:39Z flip214: ah, okay. sorry for the noise.
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2015-09-10T08:14:00Z flip214: jasom: why not paste the numbers into wolfram alpha, to get a third result?
2015-09-10T08:14:12Z flip214: perhaps that'll show which one is correct - if any ;)
2015-09-10T08:14:38Z jasom: I am fairly confident in the python code, since that passes the tests versus a reference implementation
2015-09-10T08:15:17Z flip214: well, which CL implementation? wouldn't believe that the bignums have a bug in such "easy" operations
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2015-09-10T08:17:18Z jasom: I tried both ccl and sbcl just in case
2015-09-10T08:17:23Z jasom: same results
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2015-09-10T08:18:10Z flip214: perhaps it's python that's wrong, then
2015-09-10T08:18:25Z flip214: it's 2:1 already - try wolfram alpha, and you're done ;)
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2015-09-10T08:21:17Z jasom: aha!
2015-09-10T08:21:36Z jasom: putting them both into buffers and diffing shows a single digit is different in a
2015-09-10T08:21:40Z jasom is too tired
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2015-09-10T08:24:47Z jasom: and that was caused by a typo in the calculation of a.  Was really unlucky that it changed only a single digit of a ~100 digit number; different inputs would have changed more digits
2015-09-10T08:25:02Z jasom: and tests are now passing :)
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2015-09-10T08:27:46Z flip214: it's good to *have* tests ;)
2015-09-10T08:28:43Z jasom: tests I didn't have to write are even better ;)
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2015-09-10T08:31:01Z flip214: right
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2015-09-10T08:56:34Z Vityok`: is there some sort of documentation about Swank RPC?
2015-09-10T08:56:34Z minion: Vityok`, memo from pjb: either the data is binary or it's well encoded text.  Taking binary data as well encoded text is a typing error.  Typing errors can come either from the reader, using the wrong type (why don't you use a binary stream?), or from the writer, generating the data of the wrong type (hence the unicode standard hiting the head of the writer).
2015-09-10T08:57:07Z Vityok`: minion: thanks for the memo
2015-09-10T08:57:07Z minion: np
2015-09-10T09:01:55Z flip214: Vityok`: I guess you have to read the source...
2015-09-10T09:02:07Z flip214: or do a tcpdump (wireshark?) on the loopback interface ;)
2015-09-10T09:03:04Z Vityok`: btw, SLIME still has nregex.lisp despite it is not used any more
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2015-09-10T10:48:56Z Andrie: Where can I find a list of key-commands? By key-commands I mean like Ctrl-d... I actually pressed it by mistake and it closed (if I had known of it I would have used it), so now I don't have to type "(quit)" every time... Thanks
2015-09-10T10:49:29Z Shinmera: C-h m will show you a list of chords for the modes of the current buffer.
2015-09-10T10:50:17Z Shinmera: But C-d makes me think you're actually using your lisp from a terminal straight up rather than emacs
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2015-09-10T10:50:27Z Andrie: Sorry I am referring to terminal SBCL not to Emacs.
2015-09-10T10:50:40Z Andrie: Yes I am!
2015-09-10T10:50:48Z Shinmera: C-d is a standard keychord for sending the End-of-transmission character.
2015-09-10T10:51:10Z Cymew: I know someone had an obvious solution to this, but I have to ask again. If I use CL-PPCRE:SCAN-TO-STRINGS and catch it in a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BINDS but really only are interested in the second value, how can I get around the fact I get a warning I never use the first value bound?
2015-09-10T10:51:16Z Shinmera: Which, in many applications, will be interpreted as you wanting to exit.
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2015-09-10T10:51:45Z Shinmera: Cymew: (declare (ignore vars))
2015-09-10T10:51:54Z Andrie: Ok... So I must look for terminal sequences!
2015-09-10T10:52:00Z Andrie: Thanks!
2015-09-10T10:52:11Z Cymew: Shinmera: Hmm. That was a new one. Might add that one to the toolbox.
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2015-09-10T10:52:28Z Shinmera: clhs ignore
2015-09-10T10:52:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm
2015-09-10T10:52:45Z Shinmera: Cymew: If you only use the second and no other value, there's also NTH-VALUE
2015-09-10T10:53:04Z Cymew: That's the one!
2015-09-10T10:53:20Z Cymew: Now I have to remember these things...
2015-09-10T10:53:25Z Cymew: Many thanks!
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2015-09-10T14:08:18Z digiorgi: HI! Friend... when i compile my lisp proyect, most of the compilers uses the LLGPL license.. and that means i have to redistribute the compiler souces in the deployment. Is that right?
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2015-09-10T14:09:54Z Xach: digiorgi: i don't think it's right that most of the compilers use llgpl.
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2015-09-10T14:10:33Z Xach: digiorgi: sbcl and cmucl use public domain, for example. clisp uses gpl. ccl uses llgpl. abcl is gpl with classpath exception.
2015-09-10T14:10:35Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: no, you don't have to, because compiled project is a result of compilation and none of copyleft licenses impose license on pogram results
2015-09-10T14:10:38Z Xach: corman lisp uses mit
2015-09-10T14:13:29Z jackdaniel: llgpl additionally clarifies this for lisp systems, where "linking" word doesn't apply (/me is proud that he probably used comma correctly in previous sentence :)
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2015-09-10T14:16:39Z Cymew: Well done! :)
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2015-09-10T14:17:40Z Guthur: digiorgi: there are also commercial Lisp compilers, which certainly are not LLGPL either
2015-09-10T14:18:13Z jackdaniel: s/previous/the previous/
2015-09-10T14:19:18Z digiorgi: jackdaniel: thanks, does that means when using a compiler i don't have to worry about legalities beacause is a "result of a compilation"?
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2015-09-10T14:21:15Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-09-10T14:21:22Z Vityok`: however, what results of compilation are you talking about?
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2015-09-10T14:21:45Z jackdaniel: Vityok`: we are talking about correlation between compiler license and compiled program constraints
2015-09-10T14:21:47Z Vityok`: fasl files are pretty much useless for distribution without a "compiler" that has produced them
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2015-09-10T14:22:39Z H4ns: digiorgi: you need to be aware of the redistribution rights of the run-time library.  it may be that you have to make the source of the compiler available if you distribute the run-time.  you typically don't have to make the source of your own software available, though.
2015-09-10T14:22:53Z jackdaniel: Vityok`: you may dump image or bouild standalone executable w/o compiler. And we talk about LLGPL where it was additionally clarified (I think LGPL allows this too)
2015-09-10T14:23:16Z jackdaniel: s/I think/I'm convinced/
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2015-09-10T15:36:37Z oleo: hello
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2015-09-10T15:39:01Z synchromesh: oleo: Hi!
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2015-09-10T16:04:14Z jackdaniel: anyone here is familiar with 5am testing framework?
2015-09-10T16:11:01Z jackdaniel: I know it's not the most elegant, but any other solution for testing reader depending on some run-time parameter different then (eval (read-from-string "…"))
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2015-09-10T16:15:45Z Bike: that's kind of a hard sentence to understand. "testing reader"?
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2015-09-10T16:17:13Z jackdaniel: ie behavior of dispatch macro character
2015-09-10T16:17:36Z jackdaniel: but as reproductible test in 5am for instance (I'll be back in ~30m)
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2015-09-10T16:22:56Z jasom: jackdaniel: you don't need the eval, right?
2015-09-10T16:23:14Z jasom: just ensure that read-from-string yields the correct structure
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2015-09-10T18:55:19Z aeth: What's the use case for defstruct instead of defclass? When it's internal-only code that needs to be optimized or something? Searching online makes it seem like defstruct is just legacy and not really needed, but when I look into the source of quicklisp projects I have installed it seems to be almost as common as defclass. Last time I asked in here (June) everyone also clearly said to not use defstruct.
2015-09-10T18:55:48Z Xach: aeth: defstruct is less flexible and faster.
2015-09-10T18:55:59Z Xach: aeth: roughly speaking, anyway.
2015-09-10T18:56:27Z Xach: aeth: the heuristic is more like 1. don't use defstruct   2. don't use defstruct yet
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2015-09-10T18:58:27Z dwchandler: premature defstruct?
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2015-09-10T19:00:40Z shka: I don't know why people are so obsesed with performance anyway…
2015-09-10T19:01:11Z Xach: shka: sometimes it can save a lot of money.
2015-09-10T19:01:20Z Xach: but not for many people.
2015-09-10T19:01:40Z Xach: i think it's good not to be wasteful
2015-09-10T19:01:48Z Xach: drawing the line can be tricky
2015-09-10T19:02:56Z aeth: shka: Not caring with performance at all gives you e.g. the really bad mobile web of 2015. So there's a balance.
2015-09-10T19:04:48Z aeth: I mean obviously if you care too much about performance and write every single thing in C, you're probably never going to get finished. Not even C programmers do that these days. That's why Lua's everywhere.
2015-09-10T19:06:17Z aeth: (And before that Python, Perl, Tcl, bash, etc.)
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2015-09-10T19:10:49Z shka: aeth: well, to be honest every single program i wrote had just few bottlenecks
2015-09-10T19:11:06Z shka: where 90% of time was spend
2015-09-10T19:11:35Z aeth: Right, that's the opposite approach. Instead of writing something at the low level and then scripting, you profile to find the bottlenecks and optimize those or rewrite just those in C/C++.
2015-09-10T19:11:36Z shka: so I better optimize those few places before even considering anything else
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2015-09-10T19:11:50Z aeth: I think this approach is the more accepted one now, at least online.
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2015-09-10T19:12:06Z shka: why to rewrite in C++?
2015-09-10T19:12:14Z shka: I write C++ code at dayjob
2015-09-10T19:12:22Z shka: it is not fun i tell you
2015-09-10T19:12:37Z aeth: I used C++ in particular because I know that one of the RL use cases of CL (in a day job, I guess) did that.
2015-09-10T19:12:42Z aeth: The one that got bought by Google.
2015-09-10T19:13:04Z aeth: Afaik, it's almost always CFFI to C, not C++.
2015-09-10T19:13:09Z shka: common lisp can be efficient enough for 99% of tasks
2015-09-10T19:13:45Z shka: though optimizing common lisp is not trivial task
2015-09-10T19:14:01Z shka: still better job than writting C++ or C code
2015-09-10T19:14:42Z aeth: (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) ; very easy :-p
2015-09-10T19:15:57Z shka: not nearly that easy
2015-09-10T19:16:35Z aeth: it was a joke
2015-09-10T19:17:17Z shka: oh sorry
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2015-09-10T19:17:36Z shka: my sense of humor is strange
2015-09-10T19:17:42Z aeth: well I use ":-p" for a joke, idk what's more common. "j/k"?
2015-09-10T19:18:14Z aeth: Well humor usually fails. That's why we tend to pay professionals to do it.
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2015-09-10T19:20:15Z shka: oh, that was actually funny
2015-09-10T19:20:24Z shka: though not sure if it was intended to be ;-)
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2015-09-10T19:25:32Z pjb: ecraven: (loop for x from 1 upto 10 do (loop for y from 2 upto 20 do (format t "~a - ~a~&" x y)) finally (loop repeat 10 do (format t "Missed step~%")))
2015-09-10T19:25:41Z pjb: ecraven: you asked for 200 not for 190.
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2015-09-10T19:34:11Z pjb: minion: memo for Andrie: the key binding on the terminal are determined first by stty (type stty -a) and then depending on the shell/current program and library used for terminal I/O by ~/.inputrc (or of course ~/.emacs when it's emacs).
2015-09-10T19:34:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Andrie when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-10T19:34:47Z pjb: Shinmera: While C-d is "standard" it's customizable with stty eof
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2015-09-10T19:44:34Z pjb: aeth: Don't use DEFCLASS either, it's premature optimization too :-)  Instead, write your own define-entity or whatever macros.  http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields
2015-09-10T19:44:49Z pjb: aeth: otherwise, what defstruct does that defclass doesn't is (:type vector) and (:type list).
2015-09-10T19:45:12Z pjb: aeth: and remember, defstruct does single inheritance with (:include superstruct).
2015-09-10T19:45:14Z dim: vector/list of what?
2015-09-10T19:45:54Z Bicyclidine: (:type whatever) makes the "structure" just be a vector/list/whatevs with some accessors that amount o aref.
2015-09-10T19:45:55Z pjb: aeth: also, defstruct generate a copy-<your-struct>, which defclass doesn't and it has a printing function and a read syntax.
2015-09-10T19:46:07Z pjb: Bicyclidine: not whatever. Just list or vector.
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2015-09-10T19:46:40Z Bicyclidine: i wonder if you could work that into generalized sequences.
2015-09-10T19:46:50Z pjb: Extensions are possible.
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2015-09-10T19:50:09Z dim: oh :type of the structure itself, not one of the slots
2015-09-10T19:50:30Z pjb: Yes.  That generates just the functional abstraction over lists or vectors.
2015-09-10T19:51:30Z dim: yeah I know, what I don't is if slots have the same options in defstruct and defclass wrt type declarations
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2015-09-10T20:05:09Z aeth: pjb: Wait, define-foo macros? I've been using make-foo functions!
2015-09-10T20:05:45Z Xach: aeth: define-foo would define the make-foo for you, possibly.
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2015-09-10T20:09:50Z pjb: dim: both defstruct and defclass slots have a :type option, but notice that defstruct slots cannot be unbound, so you often have to make their types be (or null …).
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2015-09-10T20:44:34Z dim: but unbound slots are a pain to deal with
2015-09-10T20:45:11Z Xach: dim: i sometimes like to use 'em with slot-unbound methods for lazy init.
2015-09-10T20:45:14Z dim: sometimes I'm thinking I should learn more about the Maybe and Union types and how they could be useful in CL
2015-09-10T20:45:53Z dim: Xach: but then everywhere you refer to the slot you need to check if it's bound, then if it's non-nil
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2015-09-10T20:46:05Z Xach: dim: no, you don't.
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2015-09-10T20:46:09Z Bicyclidine: maybe basically leads to the same protocol as gethash
2015-09-10T20:46:16Z Xach: dim: you just reference the slot, and let the slot-unbound populate it as needed.
2015-09-10T20:46:28Z Bicyclidine: but a bit nicer to write because of pattern matching
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2015-09-10T20:49:56Z dim: oooh, got it
2015-09-10T20:50:14Z dim: didn't know about the slot-unbound method, and didn't parse your previous line correctly
2015-09-10T20:50:18Z Xach: oh
2015-09-10T20:50:18Z dim: so much to learn about in CL
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2015-09-10T20:51:01Z dim: still, Maybe idiom that takes care of nil values in a composable way, I keep thinking we should have that in CL in some ways
2015-09-10T20:51:04Z Xach: dim: i sometimes have something like (defmethod slot-unbound ((class t) (object my-object) (slot (eql 'my-slot))) (setf (slot-value object slot) (heavy-computation object))))))))
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2015-09-10T20:52:48Z Xach: that only does the heavy-computation once, and returns the slot-value thereafter.
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2015-09-10T20:53:23Z dim: that sounds quite useful indeed, thanks
2015-09-10T20:59:05Z dim: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/monad.html has a maybe thing in CL
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2015-09-10T21:00:52Z dim: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm also
2015-09-10T21:01:10Z dim: which is in Quicklisp
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2015-09-10T21:19:15Z dim: well once more I'm like "looks too complex, will think about what I really need and implement just that", I think they call that the lisp curse ;-)
2015-09-10T21:20:41Z dim: I'd better polish my read-sql-files.lisp thingy and turn it into a CL implementation of https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql, but not now, now is go-to-sleep
2015-09-10T21:20:44Z dim: gn!
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2015-09-10T23:35:58Z Devon: When I try to kill a CCL process, I get permanently wedged in join-process, is there a better way?
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2015-09-11T00:21:10Z warweasle: Is anyone maintaining cl-js?
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2015-09-11T02:19:10Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
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2015-09-11T07:50:31Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-09-11T07:51:45Z ehu: jackdaniel: morning.
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2015-09-11T07:59:27Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-09-11T08:51:08Z tankfeeder: morning all
2015-09-11T08:51:27Z jackdaniel: \o
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2015-09-11T08:52:02Z tankfeeder: i'm looking for list of tasks i could implement in lisp.
2015-09-11T08:52:06Z tankfeeder: any ideas ?
2015-09-11T08:53:08Z Zhivago: How about making a nice cup of tea?
2015-09-11T08:53:12Z jackdaniel: you can join one of lisp implementations dev team, or write library/application. I miss decent ide for lisp, which would be emacs-free
2015-09-11T08:53:44Z tankfeeder: already done.
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2015-09-11T08:54:25Z tankfeeder: i've already implement a lot of stuff and want more.
2015-09-11T08:54:46Z jackdaniel: tankfeeder: any pointers on these things?
2015-09-11T08:54:46Z flip214: tankfeeder: are you a vim user?
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2015-09-11T08:56:08Z tankfeeder: https://bitbucket.org/mihailp/tankfeeder/src
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2015-09-11T08:57:48Z varjag: emacs-free is overrated
2015-09-11T08:58:01Z varjag: !
2015-09-11T08:58:45Z H4ns: is emacs-free a new kind of hipster diet?
2015-09-11T08:58:58Z flip214: tankfeeder: because if you are, you could rewrite the slime frontend in common lisp, using the neovim rpc interface...
2015-09-11T08:59:25Z tankfeeder: oh
2015-09-11T08:59:51Z jackdaniel: varjag: I'm big emacs fan, but until we don't have something easier to grasp stream of new CL programmers will be slime ;-) what might be arguably a good thing, idk
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2015-09-11T10:35:07Z knobo-net: cl-async does not use threads, so I don't have to worry about locks, right?
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2015-09-11T10:45:18Z whiteline: why does this happen http://pastebin.com/PryDHtKr http://pastebin.com/VEW56ac4 ? It does disappear when i filter make-instance output through bind-multiple-values, but the documentation says nothing about make-instance returning multiple values.
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2015-09-11T12:10:52Z lieven: what do you hope to achieve with these type declarations?
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2015-09-11T13:13:06Z whiteline: lieven: i typecheck and assert-test everything i can. typechecking custom constructors is essential of course.
2015-09-11T13:13:19Z whiteline: but most of all i just don't understand the error
2015-09-11T13:14:05Z Shinmera: type declarations aren't type checks.
2015-09-11T13:14:07Z lieven: that's not really how type declarations work in CL
2015-09-11T13:14:18Z Shinmera: They're the opposite, really.
2015-09-11T13:14:19Z whiteline: lieven: but it says it type checks it
2015-09-11T13:14:41Z whiteline: during compilation
2015-09-11T13:14:44Z Shinmera: Type declarations are a promise to the compiler that whatever you tell it is going to be true.
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2015-09-11T13:15:57Z whiteline: so declaring a function with a certain type is equal to saying "whatever i feed into this function will have this data type, period?"
2015-09-11T13:16:08Z Shinmera: Pretty much.
2015-09-11T13:16:22Z whiteline: so if i want explicit type checks i have to do what?
2015-09-11T13:16:32Z Shinmera: As long as your SAFETY is up, the compiler will still insert type checks to make double sure, but if it's on 0 all bets are off.
2015-09-11T13:16:38Z Shinmera: use CHECK-TYPE or similar.
2015-09-11T13:16:44Z whiteline: okay
2015-09-11T13:17:36Z Shinmera: Declarations are always an optimisation in CL.
2015-09-11T13:17:40Z H4ns: whiteline: if you want type safety, maybe a language other than lisp is more suitable.  idiomatic lisp does not have a lot of type checks.
2015-09-11T13:18:02Z lieven: note that CHECK-TYPE is a run time check and that any caller can establish a restart to get past it
2015-09-11T13:18:55Z whiteline: H4ns: i don't need type checks for rigid safety, i just need it to complement unit testing really
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2015-09-11T13:28:10Z whiteline: ahh, but then you get problems with optimization because the debugger allows you to enter a custom value if the type is wrong?
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2015-09-11T13:30:55Z Shinmera: Not really no.
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2015-09-11T13:31:31Z whiteline: but that's what the compiler says.
2015-09-11T13:31:36Z whiteline: i think
2015-09-11T13:32:16Z whiteline: "Assignment to argument prevents use of assertion from function type proclamation"
2015-09-11T13:33:50Z Shinmera: Well, sure. SETFing the variable could arbitrarily change the type, which might violate the declaration.
2015-09-11T13:34:17Z Shinmera: The right thing to do is to just remove the declaration.
2015-09-11T13:35:11Z Shinmera: CHECK-TYPE in itself however ensures that the type of the new value is conformant to whatever it is checking.
2015-09-11T13:35:16Z loke````: Add a CHECK-TYPE after the assignment?
2015-09-11T13:35:23Z Shinmera: clhs check-type
2015-09-11T13:35:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm
2015-09-11T13:35:38Z Shinmera: "If the store-value restart is invoked, check-type stores the new value that is the argument to the restart invocation (or that is prompted for interactively by the debugger) in place and starts over, checking the type of the new value and signaling another error if it is still not of the desired type."
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2015-09-11T13:36:36Z Shinmera: The compiler probably just isn't smart enough to understand that and thus the warning.
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2015-09-11T13:38:20Z whiteline: huh
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2015-09-11T13:39:05Z wizzo: hi. is there a way to set/unset a specific bit in a number like bit-set in clojure?
2015-09-11T13:39:18Z wizzo: i figure i can set them with logand but i don't know how to unset
2015-09-11T13:40:31Z Shinmera: Well if you had a bit-array there's just BIT
2015-09-11T13:41:03Z dlowe: wizzo: you want logandc2 IIRC
2015-09-11T13:41:04Z Shinmera: For numbers there's LDB, but that's on a byte basis.
2015-09-11T13:42:51Z wizzo: oh i didn't even realise there was a bit-array type
2015-09-11T13:43:00Z wizzo: i kind prefer to keep it a number by default though
2015-09-11T13:43:02Z wizzo: dlowe i'll check that out. thanks!
2015-09-11T13:44:01Z dlowe: it's not the most straightforward way to set bits, but it does the job
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2015-09-11T13:45:58Z wizzo: i'm just worried about the overhead of converting between them
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2015-09-11T13:46:08Z wizzo: cause it will be doing this almost constantly
2015-09-11T13:46:39Z Shinmera: Is there a particular reason you want to set individual bits in a number?
2015-09-11T13:47:24Z wizzo: dlowe yooo it works! you rock
2015-09-11T13:47:52Z wizzo: Shinmera i'm messing around writing an emulator for z80 chip
2015-09-11T13:48:04Z wizzo: and there is an 8bit register that each bit has a meaning
2015-09-11T13:48:16Z wizzo: and i need to set them individually
2015-09-11T13:48:23Z dlowe: you could store that as just eight different fields
2015-09-11T13:48:30Z Shinmera: Yeah that would be my idea.
2015-09-11T13:48:35Z dlowe: or variables
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2015-09-11T13:49:53Z wizzo: it also uses the register as a number in some instructions
2015-09-11T13:50:02Z wizzo: it would have to stitch them back together a lot
2015-09-11T13:50:38Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2015-09-11T13:51:01Z wizzo: i think logandc2 should be ok
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2015-09-11T14:17:42Z Heranort: Hey, guys! Have anyone read about SICP? I met a problem rewriting STREAM into common lisp. Could anyone help me?
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2015-09-11T14:17:59Z Bike: sure. stream means delayed conses, right?
2015-09-11T14:18:09Z Heranort: yeah
2015-09-11T14:18:19Z Heranort: I used a macro to define cons-stream
2015-09-11T14:18:58Z Heranort: but I don't know how to define streams like "ones", "integers" in the book
2015-09-11T14:19:47Z Bike: oh, right, because there's no letrec.
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2015-09-11T14:20:13Z Heranort: so is it possible to do that in common lisp?
2015-09-11T14:20:15Z Bike: (defun naturals-from (n) (lazy-cons n (naturals-from (1+ n))))
2015-09-11T14:21:11Z Heranort: is the lazy-cons a built-in function??
2015-09-11T14:21:39Z Bike: no, it's what you define
2015-09-11T14:22:59Z Heranort: alright, but how to define "ones"?
2015-09-11T14:23:14Z Heranort: (define ones (cons-stream 1 ones)), in the scheme code
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2015-09-11T14:24:16Z Bike: (labels ((ones () (lazy-cons 1 (ones)))) (defvar *ones* (ones))) would work
2015-09-11T14:28:23Z Heranort: I guess it works fine, but my slime reported error
2015-09-11T14:28:53Z Bike: which is?
2015-09-11T14:28:55Z Heranort: "ones is undefined"
2015-09-11T14:29:14Z Heranort: Oh! I know that
2015-09-11T14:29:52Z Heranort: it's my fault. I put the defvar outside the body of labels
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2015-09-11T14:32:24Z Heranort: Thank you Bike, I just know where i'm wrong. :D
2015-09-11T14:33:05Z Bike: i'll have something else to help you in a moment.
2015-09-11T14:33:18Z Heranort: okay, speak then :)
2015-09-11T14:34:13Z Heranort: I'm new to lisp. Everything's unfamiliar to me ...
2015-09-11T14:34:48Z mprelude: Welcome
2015-09-11T14:34:50Z Bike: Heranort: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BMS this will let you do (defrec *ones* (lazy-cons 1 *ones*))
2015-09-11T14:34:55Z mprelude: I'm new too, very nice language to learn though.
2015-09-11T14:35:40Z djh: Out of curiosity: How well would you say someone had to know Lisp before reading PAIP?
2015-09-11T14:35:49Z Xach: djh: it teaches lisp
2015-09-11T14:35:54Z Xach: djh: so, nothing
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2015-09-11T14:36:24Z djh: fair enough :)
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2015-09-11T14:37:59Z Bike: this works for the wrong reason, actually... oh well.
2015-09-11T14:38:39Z Bike: you can actually just do (defvar *ones* (lazy-cons 1 *ones*)) and rely on dynamic binding.
2015-09-11T14:39:16Z Heranort: but how can I use the dynamic binding? the slime just reports error
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2015-09-11T14:40:43Z Bike: it'll report a warning. you can ignore it. you can also just do (defvar *ones*) beforehand and that will silence the warning.
2015-09-11T14:41:49Z Heranort: black magic XD
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2015-09-11T14:53:01Z knobo-net:  (sb-alien:with-alien ((info (* sockint::addrinfo))) returns -2
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2015-09-11T14:53:10Z knobo-net: sorry..
2015-09-11T14:53:23Z knobo-net: (sockint::getaddrinfo  "beta.quicklisp.org"  nil nil (sb-alien:addr info) returns -2
2015-09-11T14:53:57Z knobo-net: And if I restart sbcl, then everything works fine.
2015-09-11T14:54:07Z knobo-net: bug in sbcl, maybe?
2015-09-11T14:54:21Z knobo-net: or somewhere else on my linux system.
2015-09-11T14:55:29Z knobo-net: I don't know how to find out what -2 is.
2015-09-11T14:56:24Z H4ns: knobo-net: maybe an errno?
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2015-09-11T14:59:36Z knobo-net: # define EAI_NONAME       -2    /* NAME or SERVICE is unknown.  */
2015-09-11T14:59:57Z knobo-net: Every other system on my computer works fine
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2015-09-11T15:01:33Z dlowe: Sorry, WFM
2015-09-11T15:02:37Z Xach: knobo-net: weird
2015-09-11T15:04:08Z knobo-net: Could it be that the dns server has changed, and "someone" did not notice?
2015-09-11T15:04:59Z knobo-net: It has happend before.
2015-09-11T15:05:24Z Xach: knobo-net: that does not seem to be the case right now
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2015-09-11T15:05:41Z knobo-net: I restarted, and it's ok.
2015-09-11T15:05:58Z knobo-net: , restart-inferior-lisp
2015-09-11T15:07:32Z knobo-net: I did some strace, and before restart  connect(10, {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(53), sin_addr=inet_addr("195.69.48.4")}, 16) = 0
2015-09-11T15:07:43Z knobo-net: after: connect(5, {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(53), sin_addr=inet_addr("192.168.54.1")}, 16) = 0
2015-09-11T15:08:21Z knobo-net: and now resolve.conf: 192.168.54.1
2015-09-11T15:08:55Z knobo-net: How could I make my lisp reload this information.
2015-09-11T15:10:37Z knobo-net: I wonder if I have any dns caching on my computer.
2015-09-11T15:10:44Z christoph_debian: Xach: is there a changelog somewhere on buildapp's website?
2015-09-11T15:10:50Z Xach: christoph_debian: no
2015-09-11T15:11:11Z Xach: knobo-net: usually getaddrinfo uses your system's resolver, so whatever it does, that is what it does
2015-09-11T15:11:28Z knobo-net: is avahi-daemon involved, maybe
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2015-09-11T15:11:37Z knobo-net: I have to debug futher next time this happens.
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2015-09-11T15:11:51Z knobo-net: It will not be long.
2015-09-11T15:11:55Z christoph_debian: Xach:and not in the source as well?
2015-09-11T15:11:59Z knobo-net: Maybe a couple of weeks
2015-09-11T15:12:19Z Xach: christoph_debian: nope
2015-09-11T15:12:24Z knobo-net: I'll be
2015-09-11T15:12:27Z knobo-net: staring into the screen
2015-09-11T15:12:31Z knobo-net: until it happens.
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2015-09-11T15:13:12Z knobo-net: or, maybe better to add a wrapper that sends me an sms...
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2015-09-11T15:55:50Z shka: hi all
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2015-09-11T18:18:21Z RazWelles: Hey, simple question, I'm going through PCL. I noticed loop written as (loop repeat .. so on, repeat is a parameter but doesn't require a colon? Is this just something because of a macro or?
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2015-09-11T18:19:38Z dlowe: RazWelles: yup. macro.
2015-09-11T18:19:57Z dlowe: RazWelles: The loop macro only looks at the symbol names, not the symbols themselves
2015-09-11T18:20:24Z dlowe: some people prefer using keywords for the syntax coloring, but they can be in any package
2015-09-11T18:22:25Z RazWelles: dlowe: thanks that saved me a bunch of confusion :)
2015-09-11T18:24:03Z loke````: RazWelles: It's a very astute observation you had there.
2015-09-11T18:25:03Z jlarocco_work: can anybody access https://common-lisp.net/project/yason/
2015-09-11T18:25:18Z loke````: no
2015-09-11T18:25:23Z RazWelles: loke````: oh hey thanks :)
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2015-09-11T18:25:54Z jlarocco_work: the page at http://quickdocs.org/yason/ says the yason documentation is supposed to live there
2015-09-11T18:26:47Z rme: jlarocco_work: I get 403 Forbidden
2015-09-11T18:26:56Z loke````: same
2015-09-11T18:27:20Z jlarocco_work: the good news for me is that the documentation is also here: http://hanshuebner.github.io/yason/
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2015-09-11T18:30:00Z jlarocco_work: is there somebody I should tell to get /project/yason accessible again?
2015-09-11T18:32:59Z loke````: Somewhat tangental, I found that st-json was the only JSON implementation that used strings for keys, rather then symbols (which is a problem when parsing unvalidated content since it can be used to DOS the server)
2015-09-11T18:33:28Z loke````: Am I correct, or is there another one that doesn't have that problem?
2015-09-11T18:33:52Z jlarocco_work: I'm using st-json right now, and was thinking about switching to yason
2015-09-11T18:34:00Z p_l: loke````: been thinking of using uninterned symbols fot that kind of thing, though not with json and nothing came of it
2015-09-11T18:34:20Z jlarocco_work: If I run (yason:parse "[{\"foo\":1,\"bar\":[7,8,9]},2,3,4,[5,6,7],true,null]" :object-as :alist) I get keys as strings
2015-09-11T18:34:29Z loke````: p_l: what would the benefit of uninterned symbols be, compared to strings?
2015-09-11T18:34:36Z jlarocco_work: specifically: ((("foo" . 1) ("bar" 7 8 9)) 2 3 4 (5 6 7) T NIL)
2015-09-11T18:34:48Z loke````: jlarocco_work: OK, that's good.
2015-09-11T18:35:31Z p_l: wanted to use READ on search form ^_^;
2015-09-11T18:36:35Z nyef: FWIW, I use st-json myself, as it was the only JSON library available when I was looking that had an unambiguous mapping from JSON to Lisp and back. No conflating an empty array with false with null, or... Yeah. Ugh.
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2015-09-11T18:37:52Z loke````: nyef: I started out with cl-json and came across the same problem. cl-json is extensible so I managed to work aroudn that, but then I realised that using keywords for keys was problematic and I decided to switch to st-json. It's worked really well for me.
2015-09-11T18:41:51Z jlarocco_work: i wish st-json could decode to alists
2015-09-11T18:42:05Z jlarocco_work: it has *decode-object-as* but only allows hash tables and :jso
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2015-09-11T18:42:36Z jlarocco_work: i made a little library to call into a web api that returns JSON
2015-09-11T18:42:51Z loke````: jlarocco: the special structure they use is pretty good, I think?
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2015-09-11T18:43:06Z jlarocco_work: it does a little bit of processing, like error checking, and then throws an error or returns the parsed JSON result
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2015-09-11T18:44:15Z jlarocco_work: it works, but it's slightly annoying that if I run a query I get st-json:jso instead of easier to use alists
2015-09-11T18:44:46Z jlarocco_work: not a huge deal, though
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2015-09-11T18:56:39Z whiteline: so is this like, idiomatic lisp? http://pastebin.com/7sjWLzjD
2015-09-11T18:58:19Z dlowe: Not sure why it should be a generic function, but it looks okay.
2015-09-11T18:59:09Z eudoxia: i think it's quite idiomatic
2015-09-11T18:59:19Z eudoxia: though i would of course move the tests elsewhere
2015-09-11T18:59:34Z whiteline: well i might want to make say a data structure based around a queue
2015-09-11T19:01:44Z whiteline: i'm making a data structure that holds random-states for random but it only saves a certain number because i'm rolling a lot of dice
2015-09-11T19:02:02Z whiteline: so that'd be based around a queue
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2015-09-11T19:03:01Z whiteline: eudoxia: i kind of like it that way because it forces the tests to fire when the module compiles
2015-09-11T19:03:20Z eudoxia: still, though
2015-09-11T19:03:32Z eudoxia: code and its tests are two separate things
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2015-09-11T19:03:43Z eudoxia: tests should be in a separate ASDF system
2015-09-11T19:04:05Z whiteline: ASDF?
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2015-09-11T19:04:37Z whiteline: this https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ ?
2015-09-11T19:05:07Z whiteline: oh, yeah, that's the thing quicklisp is build around
2015-09-11T19:05:10Z whiteline: i remember that
2015-09-11T19:05:13Z eudoxia: yes, the build system
2015-09-11T19:05:30Z eudoxia: see also https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project
2015-09-11T19:08:26Z Cthulhux-: hi there. is there a working twitter integration for cl around?
2015-09-11T19:08:59Z eudoxia: Cthulhux-: http://shinmera.github.io/chirp/
2015-09-11T19:09:29Z loke````: There are a few that I can see on QL
2015-09-11T19:09:32Z Cthulhux-: ah, thanks.
2015-09-11T19:09:44Z Cthulhux-: loke````: most of them use outdated APIs.
2015-09-11T19:10:02Z loke````: Cthulhux-: I wouldn't know. I never use twitters :-)
2015-09-11T19:10:17Z Cthulhux-: i hope Shinmera keeps track of that. ^
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2015-09-11T19:10:24Z Cthulhux-: loke````, i do :D
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2015-09-11T19:15:12Z Shinmera: Track of what?
2015-09-11T19:16:53Z Cthulhux-: of API changes. :-) 11 months without an update, hope it's not abandoned
2015-09-11T19:17:02Z jackdaniel: lack of API changes is a good thing
2015-09-11T19:17:03Z Cthulhux-: twitter keeps breaking its api every few weeks, it seems
2015-09-11T19:17:06Z jackdaniel: means it's stable
2015-09-11T19:17:15Z jackdaniel: oh, you mean twitters api, not the lib
2015-09-11T19:17:20Z Cthulhux-: jackdaniel, a stable client is pointless with a broken server :D
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2015-09-11T19:17:41Z Cthulhux- developed two and a half twitter clients, heavily struggling to keep them running 
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2015-09-11T19:21:00Z Xach: chirp is good
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2015-09-11T19:24:39Z Cthulhux-: noted :)
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2015-09-11T20:44:45Z Shinmera: Cthulhux-: The few features I've used of it still work
2015-09-11T20:45:02Z Shinmera: I don't keep track of all the updates and some features (that require special permissions to even be able to test) aren't implemented yet.
2015-09-11T20:45:09Z Cthulhux-: Shinmera, you don't use your own features?
2015-09-11T20:45:19Z Shinmera: I implemented a full API coverage
2015-09-11T20:45:24Z Shinmera: I don't need all that.
2015-09-11T20:45:36Z Cthulhux-: oh.
2015-09-11T20:45:44Z Shinmera: Personally I only use Chirp's home timeline streaming, tweet, and media-tweet facilities.
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2015-09-11T20:46:20Z Shinmera: But hey, if you use a feature and it's broken, I'll gladly see to it that I can fix it.
2015-09-11T20:46:57Z dlowe: I might use it, actually. I'm doing a translation project and it would help if I could get an account's tweets in chronological order
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2015-09-11T20:48:16Z Cthulhux-: i made my first android app, a (very simple) widget which only displays 1 tweet (see zentweet.net), but my java experience sucks, so i thought i could replace the "loadTweets()" function (querying a timeline with given credentials) by mocl + chirp
2015-09-11T20:48:26Z Cthulhux-: (to eventually use cl on the website too)
2015-09-11T20:48:34Z Cthulhux-: so basically, i only need "fetch 1 tweet". :D
2015-09-11T20:48:44Z Shinmera: Ho boy! I don't know if Chirp works on MOCL at all. Let me know if it does!
2015-09-11T20:48:52Z Cthulhux-: no one tried yet?
2015-09-11T20:49:01Z Shinmera: I rarely get feedback for my stuff, so I don't know.
2015-09-11T20:49:10Z Cthulhux-: my birthday is on tuesday, i guess i'll start to buy a mocl license..
2015-09-11T20:49:16Z Cthulhux-: i'll report back :p
2015-09-11T20:49:16Z Shinmera: I don't have time to muck about with android apps, so I haven't bought a MOCL license yet either.
2015-09-11T20:49:31Z Cthulhux-: but i'm pretty sure you get a lot of feedback for your qt things?
2015-09-11T20:49:36Z Shinmera: Not really, no.
2015-09-11T20:49:56Z Shinmera: The most I hear is when Qt-libs shows a new failure point.
2015-09-11T20:50:07Z Shinmera: Which happened today, sigh.
2015-09-11T20:50:27Z Cthulhux-: lol
2015-09-11T20:50:32Z dlowe: Cthulhux-: write a blog writeup and get it posted on planet lisp, please
2015-09-11T20:50:38Z Cthulhux- waits for qt5, still .... :D 
2015-09-11T20:50:47Z dlowe: Cthulhux-: I'm really really interested in how mocl works in practice
2015-09-11T20:50:53Z Shinmera: 1+ dlowe
2015-09-11T20:51:00Z Cthulhux-: dlowe, well, i guess that won't be until 2016. i need to dig into it too...
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2015-09-11T20:51:20Z Cthulhux-: according to the demo videos, mocl works like a charm
2015-09-11T20:51:32Z Cthulhux-: i'm curious myself.
2015-09-11T20:51:37Z dlowe: Demo videos are always the most reliable source.
2015-09-11T20:51:41Z Shinmera: :)
2015-09-11T20:51:44Z Cthulhux-: no they are not ^^
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2015-09-11T20:52:17Z Cthulhux-: although i found kivy (python for android) today and now i'm unsure again :D
2015-09-11T20:52:19Z Cthulhux-: sigh.
2015-09-11T20:52:29Z dlowe: I'd rather work in CL than python any day
2015-09-11T20:52:34Z Cthulhux-: too much stuff, to little time
2015-09-11T20:53:05Z Cthulhux-: yes, python has very annoying quirks (like: no brackets, a shattered ecosystem between py2 (deprecated) and py3 (too new))
2015-09-11T20:53:27Z Cthulhux-: but i speak python better than cl yet (and than java, tbh)
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2015-09-11T21:01:56Z dwchandler: has py3 been "too new" for a decade yet? must be getting close ;-)
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2015-09-11T21:03:40Z foom: Dec 2008.
2015-09-11T21:03:50Z foom: Still a few years left to go.
2015-09-11T21:04:26Z foom: (...not that I expect things to be substantially better by then)
2015-09-11T21:05:11Z Cthulhux-: dwchandler, according to "the python community", python2 is "declared dead" by python's inventor but python3 is still not widely accepted
2015-09-11T21:05:29Z Cthulhux- wonders what will happen with perl6.... 
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2015-09-11T21:06:20Z Cthulhux-: foom: it will still have no brackets :( ALTHOUGH things are improving here - in py3 you need to write "print('hi')" instead of "print 'hi'" ...
2015-09-11T21:06:31Z Cthulhux-: a small step for mankind :D
2015-09-11T21:07:02Z foom: perl6 apparently includes a perl5 mode in the same interpreter
2015-09-11T21:07:20Z foom: So, if it ever actually becomes a thing, it might be less painful to transition.
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2015-09-11T21:11:04Z Cthulhux-: you can use some py3 features in py2 too
2015-09-11T21:11:14Z Cthulhux-: from __future__ import .. or something
2015-09-11T21:11:24Z Cthulhux-: never understood why one should do that
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2015-09-11T21:12:44Z jasom: Cthulhux-: so you can write a script that works on both py3 and py2
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2015-09-11T21:13:48Z Cthulhux-: hm, is there an import to use the new () syntax in py2?
2015-09-11T21:14:01Z Cthulhux-: i tried to use py3's concurrency, but it's not compatible
2015-09-11T21:14:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: from __future__ import print_function
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2015-09-11T21:14:20Z Cthulhux-: ah.
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2015-09-11T21:14:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: from __future__ import division is also useful, because it makes division floating point by default
2015-09-11T21:14:32Z Cthulhux-: ok, makes some sense.
2015-09-11T21:14:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: one less thing to break if/when you port your code to py3
2015-09-11T21:15:08Z Cthulhux-: i'll start with porting my code to perl5 first.
2015-09-11T21:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-11T21:15:25Z Cthulhux-: py2 is boring me. and has a weird structure
2015-09-11T21:15:49Z Cthulhux-: also, it's against my personal honor :p to write code which is expected to throw exceptions
2015-09-11T21:15:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also use Hy
2015-09-11T21:16:00Z Cthulhux-: Hy?
2015-09-11T21:16:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/
2015-09-11T21:16:20Z Cthulhux-: yay, more languages!
2015-09-11T21:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's basically a Lisp syntax for Python's AST
2015-09-11T21:16:55Z Cthulhux-: ehm. why would i do this?
2015-09-11T21:17:08Z Cthulhux-: if i want lisp syntax, i use lisp
2015-09-11T21:17:09Z Cthulhux-: :|
2015-09-11T21:17:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, if you _have_ to use python for some reason but want macros
2015-09-11T21:17:33Z Bicyclidine: so you can save some time writing a CFFI wrapper to use a swig wrapper instead, no doubt
2015-09-11T21:18:09Z Cthulhux-: i'm happy to never have _had_ to use python. i only do that for fun. yet. ok, not really fun (refactoring python is some kind of a sick joke), but you probably get the idea.
2015-09-11T21:18:24Z Cthulhux-: i make my money with php. easy job, nothing to spend much braintime for.
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2015-09-11T21:31:14Z DeadTrickster: loke````, ping
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2015-09-11T23:14:38Z jburk9: anybody recommend a lisp book. i'm currently a computer science major and have some programming under my belt
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2015-09-11T23:15:01Z Bike: minion: pcl
2015-09-11T23:15:01Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-09-11T23:15:16Z Bike: if you like history, you might like paip
2015-09-11T23:15:19Z Bike: minion: paip
2015-09-11T23:15:19Z minion: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
2015-09-11T23:15:26Z Bike: ok, that was less helpful than i expected.
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2015-09-11T23:17:06Z jburk9: i started reading practical common lisp what do yall think about common lisp by Touretzky
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2015-09-11T23:18:36Z Bike: it seems nice, but it might be boring if you know how to program. i haven't read it, though.
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2015-09-11T23:20:30Z jburk9: ok cool i'll stick with practical common lisp and check out AI Programming, thanks
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2015-09-11T23:27:26Z phoe_krk: wtf
2015-09-11T23:27:32Z phoe_krk: I write a function in lisp
2015-09-11T23:27:39Z phoe_krk: and it works
2015-09-11T23:28:29Z White_Flame: yes, that's kind of how it's supposed to go ;)
2015-09-11T23:28:32Z failproofshark: who knew
2015-09-11T23:28:36Z phoe_krk: but uh
2015-09-11T23:28:42Z phoe_krk: I don't need to debug it now
2015-09-11T23:28:51Z failproofshark: yeah that usually happens when something works
2015-09-11T23:28:54Z White_Flame: conglaturations
2015-09-11T23:29:32Z phoe_krk: like
2015-09-11T23:29:39Z phoe_krk: I usually debug stuff after writing it
2015-09-11T23:29:46Z phoe_krk: but um
2015-09-11T23:29:50Z phoe_krk: I had to debug it
2015-09-11T23:29:52Z phoe_krk: in order to write it
2015-09-11T23:29:58Z phoe_krk: so it's kind of redundant now
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2015-09-11T23:32:00Z White_Flame: s-expressions are extremely unambiguous and explicit, which helps in communicating exactly what you want the computer to do.  It's nice.
2015-09-11T23:34:36Z phoe_krk: yes
2015-09-11T23:34:42Z phoe_krk: unspeakably precise
2015-09-11T23:34:53Z phoe_krk: when you have only two choices
2015-09-11T23:34:58Z phoe_krk: it's either car or cdr
2015-09-11T23:35:12Z phoe_krk: and, from there, you go deeper
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2015-09-11T23:37:55Z phoe_krk: it's amusing to write cddadrs from the end, not the beginning
2015-09-11T23:38:10Z phoe_krk: X is the biggest thing
2015-09-11T23:38:17Z phoe_krk: cdr is a smaller thing
2015-09-11T23:38:21Z phoe_krk: cadr is even smaller
2015-09-11T23:38:24Z phoe_krk: cdadr even even smaller
2015-09-11T23:38:28Z phoe_krk: it grows from the tail
2015-09-11T23:38:38Z phoe_krk: *cdr X, cadr X and so on
2015-09-11T23:40:28Z Xach: It is permissable to write a thought on a single line. More than one, even.
2015-09-11T23:40:38Z phoe_krk: whoops, sorry
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2015-09-11T23:53:22Z pjb: phoe_krk: you have up to 250 characters, almost two tweets!
2015-09-11T23:53:55Z phoe_krk: thanks, I realize that~ I just tend to type like that, hitting Enter often; I have to adjust that for IRC netiquette
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2015-09-12T00:40:04Z patrice_: Hi all, I'm doing some research about using CL to develop micro-services, I read it's excellent for concurrency, using node.js right now but not liking the direction it's going so I wonder if anyone would have some pointers, what I found so far is mainly about clojure, but i'm not a big fan of java...
2015-09-12T00:41:01Z Cthulhux`: no one with a sane mind should be a big fan of java. well, technically, CL is pretty ok in concurrency. what exactly do you want to achieve?
2015-09-12T00:43:14Z patrice_: lol, very true for java, what I'm looking for is really a new language to build services that can serve a lot of concurrent connections,
2015-09-12T00:43:25Z patrice_: in the 100k+
2015-09-12T00:43:45Z Cthulhux`: over which kind of protocol?
2015-09-12T00:44:04Z patrice_: rest mainly
2015-09-12T00:44:12Z patrice_: http
2015-09-12T00:44:46Z Cthulhux`: hm.
2015-09-12T00:44:47Z Cthulhux`: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2015-09-12T00:45:13Z Cthulhux`: (see the graphics. graphics are lovely. everyone likes graphics.)
2015-09-12T00:45:59Z patrice_: it's impressive
2015-09-12T00:49:02Z patrice_: thanks Cthulhux it's what I was looking for
2015-09-12T00:49:10Z Cthulhux`: :-) glad i could help.
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2015-09-12T01:31:29Z katco: is there a good lib in CL for aspect oriented programming?
2015-09-12T01:31:57Z Bike: katco: AspectL
2015-09-12T01:32:06Z katco: Bike: site says it's deprecated?
2015-09-12T01:32:16Z Bike: cos they want you to use contextl instead
2015-09-12T01:32:25Z katco: Bike: ah. but it works ok?
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2015-09-12T01:38:57Z Bike: contextl does, yeah.
2015-09-12T01:39:27Z katco: Bike: ok, thank you ^.^
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2015-09-12T03:58:58Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-12T04:01:57Z doesthiswork: good evening
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2015-09-12T04:08:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-12T04:10:34Z kami: Good morning beach.
2015-09-12T04:11:23Z drmeister: Hi beach - I had something disturbing happen.   During iteration over a GC managed vector the vector moved!
2015-09-12T04:11:54Z beach: Why is that disturbing?
2015-09-12T04:12:19Z drmeister: The current tagging scheme lends itself to this.   0b001 or 0b101 in the three lowest bits for pointers.
2015-09-12T04:13:08Z drmeister: If in C++ I use  for ( iterator it = vec.begin(); it!=vec.end(); ++it ) { ... do stuff with it ...}
2015-09-12T04:13:12Z beach: I am afraid I don't see how tags are related to the fact that the vector moved.
2015-09-12T04:13:50Z drmeister: The MPS only pins objects pointed to by pointers on the stack that have the pattern #b001 or #b101 in the lowest three bits.
2015-09-12T04:14:14Z beach: I see.
2015-09-12T04:14:22Z drmeister: The way I had the iterator set up vec.begin() and vec.end() return raw pointers with the pattern #b000 in the lowest three bits.
2015-09-12T04:14:32Z drmeister: So the iterator wasn't recognized as a pointer by the MPS.
2015-09-12T04:14:41Z beach: Yes, interesting.
2015-09-12T04:14:53Z drmeister: I'm working on correcting this by having vec.begin() and vec.end() return tagged pointers.
2015-09-12T04:15:24Z drmeister: And having ++it advance from one tagged pointer to the following tagged pointer.
2015-09-12T04:15:49Z beach: This looks pretty messy.
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2015-09-12T04:16:38Z TheCholbs: hey lispers
2015-09-12T04:16:40Z drmeister: The question is:  Are there other instances where a zero tagged pointer (#b000) on the stack will be the only pointer to an MPS managed object.    I don't know the answer.
2015-09-12T04:16:52Z beach: drmeister: I bet there are many.
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2015-09-12T04:17:05Z drmeister: For the most part I use tagged pointers.
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2015-09-12T04:17:15Z bjorkintosh: what's the point of this?
2015-09-12T04:17:27Z beach: bjorkintosh: I bet you there is none.
2015-09-12T04:17:37Z drmeister: I ignored it
2015-09-12T04:18:50Z doesthiswork: well it was a little bit useful to me, because I had hidden the list of people in the channel and was too lazy to unhide it.
2015-09-12T04:18:50Z drmeister: Occasionally I need a raw pointer and I use things like &*vec
2015-09-12T04:19:44Z beach: drmeister: How does that solve the problem?
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2015-09-12T04:21:44Z drmeister: I'm writing an iterator that might solve the iteration problem.
2015-09-12T04:22:20Z beach: What does &*vec do to solve the problem?
2015-09-12T04:25:03Z drmeister: Oh, that - that doesn't solve that problem, that creates a raw #b000 pointer that if it is the only pointer to the object on the stack will not pin the object.
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2015-09-12T04:25:41Z beach: So you make sure you also have a tagged pointer so that the object will be pinned?
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2015-09-12T04:30:37Z drmeister: Yes, as much as possible.
2015-09-12T04:31:12Z beach: Er, don't you HAVE TO do that?
2015-09-12T04:31:58Z drmeister: Yes.
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2015-09-12T04:32:07Z Oddity: hi
2015-09-12T04:33:13Z drmeister: I'm worried about what kind of optimizations might remove the tagged pointers from the stack.
2015-09-12T04:33:46Z beach: drmeister: That might be possible, yes.
2015-09-12T04:34:11Z beach: drmeister: We just have to make sure that doesn't happen.
2015-09-12T04:34:23Z beach: Oh, but LLVM might do something. :(
2015-09-12T04:34:55Z drmeister: That's why I mentioned it - I'm pondering how to make sure that there are tagged pointers on the stack.
2015-09-12T04:35:04Z beach: I see what you mean.
2015-09-12T04:36:02Z jasom: I think I found a bug in ironclad's sha-512 implementation
2015-09-12T04:36:03Z beach: For SICL, I was thinking of providing the stack-frame layout as a function of the value of the program counter.  Some pointers could then be raw and others could be tagged.
2015-09-12T04:36:40Z beach: drmeister: But I guess you don't know that layout anyway, and there is no way you can communicate it to MPS.
2015-09-12T04:36:41Z drmeister: I don't have that control in C++
2015-09-12T04:36:46Z beach: Yeah.
2015-09-12T04:37:30Z beach: I guess we created a mess for you by recommending tagging and immediate fixnums.
2015-09-12T04:37:36Z drmeister: My tagging scheme is very flexible now - so if the tagging scheme runs into trouble I can change it.
2015-09-12T04:37:51Z jeaye: drmeister: May I PM you?
2015-09-12T04:37:53Z drmeister: Meh, we will see
2015-09-12T04:38:01Z drmeister: jeaye: Sure
2015-09-12T04:53:45Z jasom: ah, fixed already, just needed to update quicklisp
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2015-09-12T05:01:06Z drmeister: beach: I'd like to stick with the tagging scheme you taught me if I can so don't sweat it.  It looks like the best choice for speed.
2015-09-12T05:02:01Z beach: For speed, yes.
2015-09-12T05:04:19Z beach: drmeister: I guess Clasp is challenging.  You are creating a Common Lisp implementation using LLVM and MPS, none of which were made for Common Lisp and that do not take each other into account.
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2015-09-12T05:11:12Z drmeister: Yup
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2015-09-12T05:59:01Z aeth: oh cool someone mentioned me
2015-09-12T05:59:17Z aeth: oh nevermind
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2015-09-12T07:22:27Z beach: I am again working on this project for defining a "clean" POSIX API for Common Lisp: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
2015-09-12T07:22:28Z beach: I am not working very hard on it, so it will take some time, but I do take contributions, and the entire thing is hosted on GitHub.
2015-09-12T07:22:57Z beach: It is one of those "one page per day" projects.
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2015-09-12T11:39:55Z pillton: Is anyone here familiar with the compiler-let-confusion issue?
2015-09-12T11:39:58Z pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss066_w.htm
2015-09-12T11:42:25Z pillton: I'm puzzled as to why they didn't pursue standardising macroexpand-all.
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2015-09-12T11:48:23Z pillton: With macroexpand-all you would be able to share data across macros like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155085.
2015-09-12T11:49:43Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how that would be useful or better than just using functions in the macro to begin with.
2015-09-12T11:50:14Z DeadTrickster: is it event portable
2015-09-12T11:50:20Z DeadTrickster: dark shit magic
2015-09-12T11:51:28Z pillton: Shinmera: It is useful. I have had to do it a number of times.
2015-09-12T11:51:41Z Shinmera: pillton: I haven't, which is why I'm asking.
2015-09-12T11:52:41Z pillton: I have done it for propagating type information in a way similar to what is described in the issue.
2015-09-12T11:53:15Z Shinmera: Having a way to access type information at compile time is something I've felt like wanting, but not really needing.
2015-09-12T11:53:49Z DeadTrickster: pillton, where you use it? have github link?
2015-09-12T11:53:50Z pillton: I am now looking to do it to automatically reuse computations I have already performed.
2015-09-12T11:56:06Z pillton: DeadTrickster: It is in code I haven't released.
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2015-09-12T12:59:02Z |3b|: yay, as far as i can tell the bug i've been trying to find all week is in the current version of libffi in msys2 :/
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2015-09-12T13:00:31Z LiamH: libffi has a bug?
2015-09-12T13:00:37Z |3b| copied over libffi 3.1 .dll from other machine and it works fine
2015-09-12T13:00:54Z |3b|: LiamH: i assume so
2015-09-12T13:01:18Z LiamH: I thought it was very stable and very widely used.
2015-09-12T13:02:30Z |3b| guesses i hit something related to the motivation of https://github.com/atgreen/libffi/commit/99db4d42acc7ee6d2ad206848be38083d7b5e094
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2015-09-12T13:03:09Z LiamH: Ah
2015-09-12T13:03:18Z |3b|: haven't tried building from git to see if that fixed it yet
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2015-09-12T13:17:32Z Heranort: Is anyone using CLisp? I ran into problem using ext:shell command. The function returns 127 and did nothing. How can i fix it?
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2015-09-12T13:22:07Z Xach: Heranort: that is the exit status code of the exited shell process. what argument did you use?
2015-09-12T13:22:29Z Xach: Heranort: and what does (ext:getenv "SHELL") return, out of curiosity?
2015-09-12T13:22:48Z Heranort: a string. "dot -Tpng -O wizard.dot"
2015-09-12T13:23:18Z Heranort: "/bin/bash"
2015-09-12T13:23:41Z Xach: Heranort: my shell returns 127 for "command not found". Is dot in your path? Does it still error if you give the full path to dot?
2015-09-12T13:24:23Z Heranort: yeah, dot is a command of graphviz. it's in my path
2015-09-12T13:24:31Z Xach: Heranort: what happens if you give the full path?
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2015-09-12T13:25:03Z gnawrghz: hello
2015-09-12T13:25:10Z Heranort: the full path of dot is "/usr/local/bin/dot"
2015-09-12T13:25:18Z gnawrghz: is there no (define .... ) function in lisp?
2015-09-12T13:25:21Z Heranort: i think it's installed properly.
2015-09-12T13:25:27Z Xach: Heranort: right. what if you use (ext:shell "/usr/local/bin/dot -Tpng ...")?
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2015-09-12T13:25:39Z Xach: gnawrghz: this channel is for common lisp, and common lisp has no (define ...)
2015-09-12T13:25:43Z Heranort: okay, I would try that
2015-09-12T13:25:45Z Xach: gnawrghz: scheme has (define ...)
2015-09-12T13:25:45Z gnawrghz: ok
2015-09-12T13:25:58Z gnawrghz: i was using common lisp
2015-09-12T13:25:58Z Xach: there is a #scheme channel and I think they discuss scheme there
2015-09-12T13:26:07Z Xach: gnawrghz: the command to define a function in CL is (defun ...)
2015-09-12T13:27:05Z Xach: Heranort: the suspense is killing me!!
2015-09-12T13:27:21Z Heranort: I'm sorry...i'm slow...
2015-09-12T13:27:53Z Heranort: returns nil
2015-09-12T13:27:58Z Xach: Heranort: that's success!
2015-09-12T13:28:06Z Xach: Heranort: NIL means the command ran and exited with status 0
2015-09-12T13:28:15Z Xach: which, in unix, is good
2015-09-12T13:28:23Z Heranort: Wow yeah! You're cool!THanks
2015-09-12T13:28:29Z Xach: Heranort: out of curiosity, what do you get from (ext:getenv "PATH")?
2015-09-12T13:28:35Z Heranort: but why? can't clisp read my path?
2015-09-12T13:28:43Z Heranort: that returns /bin/bash
2015-09-12T13:28:56Z Xach: Heranort: Really? The PATH is "/bin/bash"?
2015-09-12T13:29:02Z Xach: That would be really weird.
2015-09-12T13:29:44Z Heranort: weird enough! when I use clisp in terminal, it returns /bin/bash
2015-09-12T13:30:03Z Xach: Heranort: are you double-dog sure that (ext:getenv "PATH") returns "/bin/bash"?
2015-09-12T13:30:09Z Heranort: and when I use slime , it returns .....
2015-09-12T13:30:15Z Xach: normally it's a colon-separated list of directories
2015-09-12T13:30:41Z Heranort: yeah. when i use slime it returns something separated by colon
2015-09-12T13:30:58Z Xach: Heranort: can you please share the results from both the terminal and slime?
2015-09-12T13:31:23Z Xach: Heranort: is the terminal where you were having your trouble? or was it in slime?
2015-09-12T13:31:29Z Heranort: clisp: /bin/bash
2015-09-12T13:31:36Z Heranort: slime.
2015-09-12T13:31:39Z Xach: Heranort: can you please share the whole thing, including what you typed?
2015-09-12T13:31:50Z Xach: use paste.lisp.org if it's more than a couple lines
2015-09-12T13:32:11Z Heranort: okay. In terminal, i typed (ext:getenv "PATH") and it returns /bin/bah
2015-09-12T13:32:12Z Heranort: bash
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2015-09-12T13:32:58Z Heranort: and in slime, it returns "/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin........"(something very long.)
2015-09-12T13:33:35Z Xach: Heranort: It is very weird and screwed up that (ext:getenv "PATH") returns "/bin/bah"
2015-09-12T13:33:50Z Xach: Sorting that out might help avoid the 127 error
2015-09-12T13:33:58Z Heranort: i think so...
2015-09-12T13:34:01Z Xach: Got to go, even though this mystery is so tempting! Good luck!
2015-09-12T13:34:13Z Heranort: thanks a lot :)
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2015-09-12T14:10:38Z loke````: re
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2015-09-12T15:18:57Z vestros: May someone help me with some chapter 1 confusion I'm having in SICP?
2015-09-12T15:19:23Z vestros: I'm at the part where the 'golden ratio' has been introduced.
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2015-09-12T15:20:25Z isBEKaml: vestros: Although you might get answers here, common lisp is not the same as scheme. Perhaps, you can also try asking your question on #scheme
2015-09-12T15:21:16Z beach: Also, SICP seems to be the favorite topic of trolls these days, so we'll wait and see what the question is.
2015-09-12T15:21:16Z vestros: Oh...
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2015-09-12T15:21:47Z |3b|: luis` (or anyone else): any idea why cffi::follow-typedefs ( https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/early-types.lisp#L314 ) uses (eq (type-of ...) 'foreign-typedef) instead of (typep ... 'foreign-type-alias)?
2015-09-12T15:23:22Z |3b|: that is getting too annoying to work around, so probably easier to just fix it in cffi and make people upgrade :p
2015-09-12T15:24:17Z |3b|: ('that' as in https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474631 )
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2015-09-12T15:26:26Z vestros: beach - My question pertains to the 'golden ratio' stuff introduced just after the tree recursive Fibonacci stuff, btw.
2015-09-12T15:26:45Z beach: Ask your question, and we'll see.
2015-09-12T15:26:57Z LiamH: |3b|: do you have a patch? does it fix that issue?
2015-09-12T15:27:29Z |3b|: LiamH: typep instead of eq type-of i think fixes it, but i wasn't sure if that was the right fix or not
2015-09-12T15:27:57Z |3b|: bit more confident of it now, assuming there isn't some reason i don't see for the EQ
2015-09-12T15:28:16Z LiamH: |3b|: First thing to ascertain is that all the existing tests still pass.
2015-09-12T15:29:19Z LiamH: Second, please make a test that fails under the old form and passes with your patch.
2015-09-12T15:29:33Z |3b|: how does one run tests?
2015-09-12T15:29:55Z LiamH: I use ASDF.
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2015-09-12T15:30:23Z |3b|: how does one run tests using ASDF? :p
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2015-09-12T15:31:16Z Shinmera: ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM
2015-09-12T15:31:17Z LiamH: (asdf:test-system :cffi-tests :verbose t)
2015-09-12T15:31:52Z LiamH: But, I can't remember if cffi-libffi has a separate set of tests.
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2015-09-12T15:38:51Z |3b|: how do you test for not getting stuck in a loop with that test suite?
2015-09-12T15:39:07Z |3b|: or does it time out on its own?
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2015-09-12T15:42:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: hey! You here?
2015-09-12T15:44:02Z Shinmera: Yes
2015-09-12T15:44:09Z hitecnologys: Oh, great.
2015-09-12T15:44:18Z hitecnologys: Sorry for such a delay in feedback.
2015-09-12T15:44:48Z hitecnologys: I've been really busy at work this week and I totally forgot about that until some time ago.
2015-09-12T15:45:26Z Shinmera: No worries.
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2015-09-12T15:47:31Z loke````: Good evening Lisp
2015-09-12T15:47:44Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: alright, so, the first thing that seems rather annoying is hidden global context. In Universal-Config I had WITH-CONFIG macro that I could use to set up proper local configuration, now I have none. I'm not sure whether I'm the only one that needs such a thing (I can totally write such a macro myself) but maybe it would be good to include it in Ubiquitous?
2015-09-12T15:47:51Z hitecnologys: loke````: good evening!
2015-09-12T15:49:10Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Right. You can just bind *storage*, but I'll add a macro in for convenience.
2015-09-12T15:49:33Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, I figured that *STORAGE* contains current config table.
2015-09-12T15:49:59Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: besides, RESTORE behaves improperly if I use it twice.
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2015-09-12T15:50:14Z Shinmera: Improperly how.
2015-09-12T15:50:38Z hitecnologys: It returns the same table it returned the first time.
2015-09-12T15:51:10Z LiamH: |3b|: I don't know, I'm not familiar with that test suite. Maybe luis or fe[nl]ix know.
2015-09-12T15:51:24Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: you mean the object is EQ?
2015-09-12T15:52:18Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yes.
2015-09-12T15:52:28Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Well if there's no config to read it can't really make anything new.
2015-09-12T15:52:33Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: try doing (restore 'foo) then set something up, then (restore 'bar).
2015-09-12T15:52:40Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I see.
2015-09-12T15:52:59Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: shouldn't it return default (empty) table then?
2015-09-12T15:53:08Z Shinmera: Though I guess it should init to an empty table in that case.
2015-09-12T15:53:53Z hitecnologys: Yeah, it probably should.
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2015-09-12T15:54:59Z hitecnologys: I'd rather leave it configurable somehow, though.
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2015-09-12T15:55:15Z hitecnologys: Say, though an argument or a method that is called to get default value.
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2015-09-12T15:55:54Z hitecnologys: However, I'm not sure how good this idea sounds.
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2015-09-12T15:56:52Z |3b|: LiamH: well, doesn't seem to break any other tests at least
2015-09-12T15:56:58Z Shinmera: No, restoring is always bound to modify the object anyway. If you aren't prepared to lose changes, you're doing it wrong.
2015-09-12T15:57:05Z Shinmera: So it's fine for it to reset to an empty table, in my opinion.
2015-09-12T15:57:09Z LiamH: |3b|: That's good news
2015-09-12T15:57:17Z Shinmera: I guess I can have it signal a warning.
2015-09-12T15:57:45Z hitecnologys: I mean configurable default value.
2015-09-12T15:58:13Z Shinmera: Hrm.
2015-09-12T15:58:33Z hitecnologys: I.e. when I finds that there's no file it initializes new one. Instead of hard-coding what I does, it might be beneficial to leave it up to user and have fallback value as default (say, hash table).
2015-09-12T15:58:55Z Shinmera: A warning can do that for you, tbh.
2015-09-12T15:59:12Z Shinmera: With a restart for the default, I guess.
2015-09-12T15:59:21Z hitecnologys: Sounds great.
2015-09-12T15:59:33Z hitecnologys: A job for restart indeed.
2015-09-12T15:59:55Z Shinmera: I'll get to it later tonight. Have to head off soon.
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2015-09-12T16:00:01Z hitecnologys: OK.
2015-09-12T16:00:22Z hitecnologys: If I notice anything else that makes me uncomfortable, I'll tell you later.
2015-09-12T16:00:35Z hitecnologys: For now that's pretty much I noticed.
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2015-09-12T16:00:45Z Shinmera: Alright.
2015-09-12T16:00:50Z hitecnologys: All in all, the thing is kinda cool.
2015-09-12T16:00:58Z Shinmera: Hopefully Xach won't roll out within the next few hours :)
2015-09-12T16:01:05Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-09-12T16:01:36Z XachX: Sadly not. Such a wacky month.
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2015-09-12T16:13:58Z |3b|: LiamH: sent a pull request, didn't do anything special with the tests, so they would just lock up without the fix
2015-09-12T16:14:38Z LiamH: |3b|: Did you add a test?
2015-09-12T16:14:46Z |3b|: yeah
2015-09-12T16:14:50Z LiamH: OK
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2015-09-12T16:15:42Z |3b| added 4 even, to test it actually returns the right value as well
2015-09-12T16:17:39Z |3b| goes back and switches all the structs i'd switched to just using untranslated :unsigned-int back to the correct bitfield type
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2015-09-12T16:27:23Z jasom: XachX: Can you get the latest head of Ironclad in quicklisp?  There was a bugfix in April that doesn't seem to be in last months distribution
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2015-09-12T16:28:18Z jasom: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/commit/83975c965392ae3ed940736c9f0f4921af4116ad
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2015-09-12T16:29:44Z LiamH: |3b|: Does your patch close out https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1474631?
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2015-09-12T16:31:29Z XachX: jasom: I would prefer a release. Or some statement from Nathan that he won't do releases any more.
2015-09-12T16:31:37Z |3b|: LiamH: yeah, that's the idea
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2015-09-12T17:02:08Z ehu: XachX: did my cl-irc patch solve that part of the QL release process?
2015-09-12T17:02:29Z XachX:  ehu: yes, thanks
2015-09-12T17:03:05Z ehu: ok. good. then I'm off the hook
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2015-09-12T17:39:44Z DeadTrickster: Xach, could you please merge this? https://github.com/xach/zs3/pull/17
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2015-09-12T18:10:24Z Xach: dim: pgloader does not work for me. http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-09-12/failure-report/pgloader.html#pgloader
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2015-09-12T18:12:50Z schoppenhauer: why did TheCholbs highlight me?
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2015-09-12T18:14:47Z Xach: schoppenhauer: a sense of inclusiveness, perhaps
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2015-09-12T18:18:14Z Xach: DeadTrickster: this is so it works with your hacked forks of chunga, drakma, etc?
2015-09-12T18:18:50Z schoppenhauer: pl
2015-09-12T18:18:52Z schoppenhauer: ok
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2015-09-12T18:36:52Z DeadTrickster: Xach, just chunga yes, that problem with keywords interning
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2015-09-12T18:59:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good guide about how to split up a project into modules? I've never quite figured out how to use ASDF properly.
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2015-09-12T19:00:07Z katco: fiddlerwoaroof: i enjoy Xach's blog post: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335
2015-09-12T19:02:02Z katco: fiddlerwoaroof: i haven't wrapped my head around asdf fully, but that got me going
2015-09-12T19:03:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
2015-09-12T19:03:14Z katco: fiddlerwoaroof: hth
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2015-09-12T19:24:36Z dim: Xach: having a look
2015-09-12T19:27:36Z dim: oh, just pushed a new version of cl-ixf yesterday evening, with changes to current HEAD version of pgloader
2015-09-12T19:27:48Z dim: pgloader 3.2.2 isn't compatible with cl-ixf of today
2015-09-12T19:27:51Z dim: how do we solve that?
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2015-09-12T20:45:41Z Xach: dim: releases, or release branch, of cl-ixf?
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2015-09-12T21:21:49Z DeadTrickster: Xach, ping
2015-09-12T21:22:06Z Xach: DeadTrickster: Hello
2015-09-12T21:22:31Z DeadTrickster: do you feel like merging that PR?
2015-09-12T21:22:59Z Xach: I don't feel good about it. It is catering to a version of the software that is not the official version. Why not maintain your own unofficial zs3 instead?
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2015-09-12T21:29:07Z DeadTrickster: Xach, first there too much stuff in local-projects already. Also I'm not trying to be rude here but why you made assumption on header data structure and not used drakma:header-value at first?
2015-09-12T21:29:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the package seems to be abandoned (or at least not updated recently), but it'd be nice if this PR could get in: https://github.com/arielnetworks/cl-markup/pull/10
2015-09-12T21:29:41Z Xach: DeadTrickster: My code predates drakma:header-value, and the data structure I'm using is (or was) documented and supported.
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2015-09-12T21:30:57Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: You may be interesed in https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret
2015-09-12T21:31:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I am
2015-09-12T21:31:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can it generate XHTML5?
2015-09-12T21:31:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: I need XHTML5 to get around a limitation of lquery/plump
2015-09-12T21:32:33Z PuercoPop: is xhtml5 a thing? I thought xhtml was left behind with html4
2015-09-12T21:33:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: the w3c defines two "representations" of HTML5
2015-09-12T21:33:18Z Shinmera: If you send HTML5 with application/xhtml+xml you basically get XHTML5.
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2015-09-12T21:35:00Z DeadTrickster: Xach, at least my PR makes your code more robust to the future changes, I really do not understand what is your problem here honestly. zs3 uses drakma and accesses certain headers. Why not to use new API that hides implementation details of data structure. This is like basic stuff from first sicp pages :-)
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2015-09-12T21:37:57Z Xach: DeadTrickster: Maybe it's the insulting, condescending manner in which the changes are presented.
2015-09-12T21:38:17Z Xach: Perhaps that should not be a consideration, but I am only human.
2015-09-12T21:40:05Z DeadTrickster: Xach, what you've found insulting? PR comment or what?
2015-09-12T21:42:13Z Xach: And anyway, my code works, and it will continue to work until chunga is changed, which I do not think will happen.
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2015-09-12T21:47:44Z DeadTrickster: Xach, it's a matter of taste. you know about this line, you know it smells, you decide. you can ignore my pr and make this change yourself after all (this never going to happen, rright?:-).
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2015-09-12T21:50:56Z rme: Certainly not if you keep getting on his nerves.
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2015-09-12T21:55:43Z phryk: I often hear about lisp programs being able to modify themselves. to what degree is this true?
2015-09-12T21:56:23Z emaczen: I'm having scope issues with parenscript -- basically two let forms with the same names, but the generated JS just turns the let form into a "var" and hence the value of the name is determined by actions inside the body of the second let.
2015-09-12T21:56:25Z emaczen: Any ideas?
2015-09-12T21:56:34Z phoe_krk: phryk: define "modify themselves"
2015-09-12T21:58:21Z Quadrescence: phryk, more usually, they generate themselves
2015-09-12T21:58:39Z phryk: phoe_krk: I'm not sure what it means, that's why I came to ask. It sounds a bit like lisp programs could modify themselves in the ram, like insert a new version of a function while running
2015-09-12T21:58:48Z Quadrescence: while they can, they don't usually modify themselves (i.e., produce entirely new code while the program is running, changing an existing piece of code)
2015-09-12T21:59:03Z Quadrescence: phryk, you can do that, but again, it's not usual
2015-09-12T21:59:16Z Quadrescence: because if you change functions while running, then you can't make a lot of very useful assumptions
2015-09-12T21:59:22Z phryk: Yeah, I guessed that it wouldn't be usual. But it sounds really fascinating.
2015-09-12T21:59:34Z phoe_krk: but yeah, you can almost always redefine a function mid-program
2015-09-12T21:59:38Z nyef: I wrote an Applesoft BASIC program that could edit itself while running, once.
2015-09-12T21:59:39Z jself: it is common to do while iteratively developing though
2015-09-12T22:00:01Z jself: as in overwrite an existing function, test it in the shell, change it again, etc
2015-09-12T22:00:06Z Quadrescence: phryk, it's really simple, just another level of indirection. Instead of jumping to an address when you call a function, you look the address up by name. If you want to change that function, you change that address that gets looked up :)
2015-09-12T22:00:24Z phryk: Quadrescence: So I could write a lisp program that generates another similar, but different program, right?
2015-09-12T22:00:34Z phoe_krk: phryk: of course
2015-09-12T22:00:41Z Quadrescence: phryk, you can write a lisp program that generates almost any lisp code
2015-09-12T22:01:07Z phoe_krk: phryk: these are called macros and they work quite unlike C preprocessor macros
2015-09-12T22:01:17Z DeadTrickster: phyrk, also runtime cache I think this is how clos stuff optimizes itself afaik
2015-09-12T22:01:18Z Quadrescence: idiomatically you usually don't generate code which makes use of the reader/parser, which is why I say "almost" (though you could, albeit in a more messy way)
2015-09-12T22:01:27Z phryk: I have a bit of CL experience, but that was 2011-12
2015-09-12T22:01:31Z Xach: DeadTrickster: If we revisit this discussion, be aware that I am more persuaded by "This change is more aesthetically pleasant and future-proof" than "The old code is amateurish and written in ignorance" and "The old code breaks my forked version of chunga"
2015-09-12T22:01:59Z jself: phryk: working through the first three chapters of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ will probably help...code generation is usually done more through macros than in-place code replacement (though nothing prevents you from the latter)
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2015-09-12T22:03:39Z phryk ponders
2015-09-12T22:04:18Z phryk: Do other languages allow something like this as well? I think most actively forbid replacing code in runtime, that about right?
2015-09-12T22:04:32Z jself: most dynamic languages allow replacing code at runtime
2015-09-12T22:04:41Z jself: python, ruby, and javascript are ones I can think of
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2015-09-12T22:05:08Z jself: smalltalk as well, etc
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2015-09-12T22:05:39Z jself: in different ways though
2015-09-12T22:06:04Z jself: replacing imported python code is usually a lot more painful
2015-09-12T22:06:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can even do it in C via function pointers and handwritten machine code . . .
2015-09-12T22:06:47Z DeadTrickster: Xach, yes the reason why I made that change is awful chunga and its ignorant keywords interning. And no I do not think you are amateur and I don't when you read that.
2015-09-12T22:07:04Z emaczen: Are systems in quicklisp versioned? How would I try out an upgraded system and then revert back to my version if I didn't like it?
2015-09-12T22:07:45Z axion: by putting/removing your version in/from local-projects
2015-09-12T22:08:04Z emaczen: axion: Can you elaborate?
2015-09-12T22:08:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Quicklisp prefers systems stored in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2015-09-12T22:08:26Z Xach: emaczen: all quicklisp projects are versioned all together. you can't pick individual projects and go back within quicklisp.
2015-09-12T22:08:34Z Xach: emaczen: but you can selectively override
2015-09-12T22:08:43Z DeadTrickster: Xach, moreover this community apathy regarding basic and obvious security flaws is unprecedented
2015-09-12T22:09:23Z emaczen: Xach: How do you selectively override?
2015-09-12T22:09:33Z axion: emaczen: 1) put your preferred version in quicklisp's local-projects directory. 2) quickloaded system is 'yours'. 3) remove. 4) quickloaded system is not 'yours'.
2015-09-12T22:09:51Z Xach: emaczen: make the project available via ASDF. one easy way is by putting the project directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ but there are other ways.
2015-09-12T22:10:09Z nyef: emaczen: Or, if local-projects isn't "good enough", hack asdf:*central-registry* or whatever it's called.
2015-09-12T22:10:22Z Xach: New ASDFs support putting stuff in ~/common-lisp/
2015-09-12T22:10:37Z nyef makes a note to never create that directory, just in case.
2015-09-12T22:10:47Z phoe_krk: (defmacro either (form1 form2) `(if (zerop (random 2)) ,form1 ,form2))
2015-09-12T22:10:52Z phoe_krk: oh my god this is so sweet
2015-09-12T22:10:58Z dxtr: Hi! Is there a function for returning the last component of a pathname? pathname-name doesn't return the file suffix
2015-09-12T22:11:22Z dxtr: for example, for file "test.c" it only returns "test"
2015-09-12T22:11:34Z Xach: dxtr: file-namestring
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2015-09-12T22:11:55Z dxtr: Neat!
2015-09-12T22:12:04Z Xach: dxtr: that's not really a component, but a namestring, so you must sometimes be aware of the semantics of namestrings
2015-09-12T22:12:18Z Xach: especially that their syntax is arbitrary and implementation-defined
2015-09-12T22:12:42Z dxtr: Right
2015-09-12T22:16:05Z emaczen: Are quicklisp downloaded systems generally loaded from ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/installed/systems?
2015-09-12T22:16:42Z Xach: emaczen: that is simple database of installation info. the software sources themselves are in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/
2015-09-12T22:18:26Z dxtr: Xach: Also, uiop:subdirectory-files lists files in the parent directory too. Is this correct behavior? :p
2015-09-12T22:18:57Z dxtr: Oh, nevermind. It ONLY lists files in the parent directory. Hm..
2015-09-12T22:19:07Z Xach: dxtr: I don't know, sorry. I don't have a function by that name in my uiop
2015-09-12T22:19:18Z dxtr: I mean directory-files
2015-09-12T22:19:22Z dxtr: Sorry
2015-09-12T22:19:32Z emaczen: Xach: Ok, I can see that the directory is labelled version 2.5 but the source has a variable which is versioned 2.3.... so I guess i do have the right version.
2015-09-12T22:19:57Z Xach: dxtr: ah. well, it has a docstring with a description of what it's supposed to do.
2015-09-12T22:20:27Z dxtr: Yes I see it
2015-09-12T22:21:18Z dxtr: But it didn't explain this behavior to me, but maybe I'm an idiot
2015-09-12T22:21:42Z dxtr: For example (uiop:directory-files "~/temp") lists all the files in ~
2015-09-12T22:22:04Z Xach: dxtr: you should use a trailing slash to indicate you want the contents of the temp directory
2015-09-12T22:22:09Z emaczen: Can anyone help me with supposed lexically scoped let forms in parenscript?
2015-09-12T22:22:51Z dxtr: Xach: Oh, it's that picky?
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2015-09-12T22:24:22Z dxtr: Well that explains it
2015-09-12T22:24:56Z axion: (pathname-directory "~/temp") => (:ABSOLUTE :HOME)
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2015-09-12T22:26:54Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Changes are in.
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2015-09-12T22:55:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: can I supress the new plump warnings somehow?
2015-09-12T22:55:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Outputting #\... is discouraged, etc.
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2015-09-12T22:56:35Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: You can add a handler-bind and invoke the 'continue restart.
2015-09-12T22:57:01Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/blob/master/entities.lisp#L394
2015-09-12T22:57:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks.  I eventually need to learn about restarts . . .
2015-09-12T22:58:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there anything like a concise guide to idiomatic lisp?
2015-09-12T22:58:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like PEP 8 for python: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
2015-09-12T22:59:13Z Shinmera: There's the google common lisp style guide http://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2015-09-12T22:59:18Z Shinmera: But there's nothing sanctioned.
2015-09-12T22:59:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wasn't thinking as much about that aspect of PEP 8
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2015-09-12T23:00:21Z Shinmera: About what did you think that the above guide doesn't cover then?
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2015-09-12T23:01:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I meant I wasn't thinking about how PEP 8 is "sanctioned"
2015-09-12T23:01:29Z Shinmera: Ah.
2015-09-12T23:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Google style guide looks like what I wanted
2015-09-12T23:01:44Z Shinmera: There's other style guides, but Google's is the one I've heard the least complaints about.
2015-09-12T23:01:58Z resttime: I like using the one from Ariel Labs  http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html
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2015-09-12T23:02:06Z resttime: fukamachi styled lisp
2015-09-12T23:02:14Z Shinmera: I for example don't like that one.
2015-09-12T23:02:37Z resttime: Oh, I'm curious how come
2015-09-12T23:03:37Z Shinmera: I'm not going to rant about one package per file again, suffice to say I don't approve of it. Cl-annot is also rather hacky. Having <> around classes is just plain stupid. Types for each class slot is also rather superfluous.
2015-09-12T23:03:57Z Shinmera: And the rest is rather standard already anyway.
2015-09-12T23:06:02Z resttime: Interesting, I follow the one package per file and <> for classes, but don't bother with the slot types or cl-annot
2015-09-12T23:06:13Z Shinmera: Why do you bother with <>.
2015-09-12T23:07:13Z resttime: I figured at first since it would mark that something was a class but lately in api I'm also starting to feel like it's a bit too much
2015-09-12T23:07:29Z Shinmera: Any place where a class is the context already clearly marks it as a class
2015-09-12T23:07:52Z Shinmera: e.g. (find-class 'foo) and in method definitions, where it's clear by the specializers.
2015-09-12T23:07:57Z resttime: something like (fetch (make-instance '<safebooru>)) makes it tiring to write the <> all the time
2015-09-12T23:08:17Z Shinmera: And make-instance already says it's a class, so why bother.
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2015-09-12T23:08:37Z PuercoPop: Norvig's style guide is often overlooked: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
2015-09-12T23:09:00Z resttime: Makes sense, so I'll probably end up dropping them
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2015-09-12T23:10:52Z resttime: Though I'm curious about your rant against one package per file, do you prefer more modules in asdf or such?
2015-09-12T23:11:27Z Shinmera: resttime: My point on that is that internal organisation is not the same as external. Packages are external, files are internal.
2015-09-12T23:11:57Z Shinmera: I like to keep files rather short so I can fit them into my brain at once.
2015-09-12T23:12:24Z Shinmera: Making a new package for each piece of the software makes no sense and only complicates things because of symbol hell.
2015-09-12T23:12:49Z Shinmera: But hey, preferences.
2015-09-12T23:13:08Z resttime: Hmmmm, so treatment of package as the abstraction over several files
2015-09-12T23:13:20Z Shinmera: No, packages are detached from files altogether.
2015-09-12T23:13:37Z Shinmera: Packages define the user interface. Files define the internal organisation.
2015-09-12T23:13:51Z resttime: Ah that's what I meant
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2015-09-12T23:14:21Z Shinmera: Sometimes it makes sense to have multiple packages because there's several logical external components, but it makes even more sense to split files often because of internal components that are sometimes very strongly intertwined still.
2015-09-12T23:14:45Z Shinmera: The strong intertwining is what makes having a package for each a pain.
2015-09-12T23:14:47Z nyef: It seems to me that literate programming is a force against small files.
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2015-09-12T23:15:34Z Shinmera: I've never tried literate programming, so I can't really say anything about that.
2015-09-12T23:15:56Z nyef: It's... an interesting approach.
2015-09-12T23:16:24Z Shinmera: I've heard very diverging opinions on it.
2015-09-12T23:16:27Z nyef: There are pros and cons.
2015-09-12T23:16:36Z nyef: And prose and code.
2015-09-12T23:17:12Z resttime: nyef: funny way to put it lol :D
2015-09-12T23:17:31Z Shinmera: Lately I've taken to putting all the docstrings into a separate documentation.lisp file with a tiny macro to make it easier.
2015-09-12T23:17:46Z Shinmera: Like in https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous/blob/master/documentation.lisp
2015-09-12T23:18:35Z dxtr: How would you guys neatly print out a directory structure? I've built something that does that but I can't quite get it the way I want
2015-09-12T23:18:53Z Shinmera: If I wanted to be fancy I'd use the pretty printer.
2015-09-12T23:19:08Z Shinmera: But otherwise just a special variable to control the indent level, I guess.
2015-09-12T23:19:49Z nyef: I started looking at literate programming again earlier this week, actually, specifically looking for a "decent" implementation for Lisp. I didn't exactly find one, and I realize that most of my TeX-fu and LaTeX-fu is profoundly rusty so I'd have a learning curve anyway, but...
2015-09-12T23:20:15Z Shinmera: Wasn't there a "sort of literate programming" documentation library here some months ago?
2015-09-12T23:20:39Z nyef: Apparently, axiom uses a custom literate programming system where they have a LaTeX construct for the code blocks, meaning that there IS no "weave" step.
2015-09-12T23:21:42Z Shinmera: I don't know if this was it, but https://github.com/mmontone/erudite/
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2015-09-12T23:22:53Z resttime: Hmmm, my next project I'll drop per file packages
2015-09-12T23:23:00Z resttime: will be small change of paste
2015-09-12T23:23:12Z resttime: err *pace
2015-09-12T23:23:32Z Shinmera: Anyway, it's quite late over here (deary me), so I'll head on off to sleep. Good night, #lisp.
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2015-09-12T23:24:30Z dxtr: Aw
2015-09-12T23:25:02Z dxtr: So my code kind of works; http://paste.lisp.org/display/155098
2015-09-12T23:25:22Z dxtr: The only exception I found so far is the case I have added in a comment at the top
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2015-09-12T23:32:28Z White_Flame: dxtr: instead of dynamically printing the indented prefix every line, you should have a prefix string that changes whenever you change a nesting level
2015-09-12T23:33:03Z White_Flame: then the decision of whether or not to print a pipe vs space happens once, where all the relevant information is immediately at hand
2015-09-12T23:33:32Z White_Flame: (once per level)
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2015-09-12T23:34:42Z PuercoPop: One thing that one package per file does well is that it informs quickly the reader what other files/packages and which functions in those packages does this file depends on.
2015-09-12T23:37:11Z dxtr: White_Flame: That's true
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2015-09-12T23:41:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I doing something obviously wrong here? http://lpaste.net/140796
2015-09-12T23:42:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: (referencing this: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/blob/master/entities.lisp#L394)
2015-09-12T23:44:27Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: Which one of the errors?
2015-09-12T23:44:34Z loke````: I see a few there
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2015-09-12T23:45:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to figure out how to invoke the restart Shinmera pointed out
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2015-09-12T23:45:38Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: Well, the biggest mistake you have there is that you're declaring a variable called DEFPARAMETER
2015-09-12T23:45:45Z loke````: that's probably not your intent
2015-09-12T23:46:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I? there are two )) at the end of line 3
2015-09-12T23:47:08Z loke````: so there is. Your indentation is really awful
2015-09-12T23:47:33Z loke````: you really should use what Emacs suggests in terms of indenation. It pretty much always does the right thing.
2015-09-12T23:48:22Z loke````: Also, why are you using defparameter at all? These should all be local variables.
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2015-09-12T23:49:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is standing in for a database at the moment
2015-09-12T23:50:10Z plertrood: Hi, does anyone here know Caveman2?
2015-09-12T23:50:32Z plertrood: I am running the default generated app, and I get an exception :
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2015-09-12T23:51:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke````: My current problem is figuring out why my handler-bind/invoke-restart cause the sbcl image to crash
2015-09-12T23:51:40Z plertrood: URI-MALFORMED-URLENCODED-STRING in QURI-DECODE.
2015-09-12T23:51:57Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: When it would be helpful to provide feed-urls so we can try it ourselves
2015-09-12T23:52:14Z PuercoPop: s/When//
2015-09-12T23:52:28Z plertrood: Any ideas what could be causing this?
2015-09-12T23:52:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, one second
2015-09-12T23:52:35Z scymtym: dxtr: maybe https://github.com/scymtym/utilities.print-tree has something you can use
2015-09-12T23:53:09Z PuercoPop: plertrood: it sems that there is a malformed URL somewhere from the message
2015-09-12T23:53:43Z plertrood: My URL is just localhost:5000/potato
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2015-09-12T23:54:36Z plertrood: I suspect it is more likely my setup doing something duff with the URL..
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2015-09-13T00:00:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've annotated it with a sample that produces the crash
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2015-09-13T00:09:44Z plertrood: Ah.. turns out it was one of my cookies that was causing the crash.
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2015-09-13T00:10:23Z plertrood: localhost picks up all kinds of weird cookies.
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2015-09-13T00:20:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, my basic problem is that I want to supress the warning messages emitted here: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/blob/master/entities.lisp#L394)
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2015-09-13T00:30:08Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: rebinding *stream* should work. Btw there is a bug with *stream* in plump. I'll report it.
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2015-09-13T00:33:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I'm trying to catch is the warning messages for discouraged-xml-char.  Wouldn't rebinding *stream* just change where plump sends the xml data?
2015-09-13T00:34:28Z PuercoPop: Yes. sorry my bad.
2015-09-13T00:37:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think there's something about my call to handler-bind that SBCL doesn't like ( http://lpaste.net/140798 )
2015-09-13T00:41:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, as far as I can tell, I'm following the syntax described in PCL exactly (I have the same problem if I just define an arbitrary set of handlers and restarts
2015-09-13T00:42:00Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i don't know plump but if SBCL complains about DISCOURAGED-XML-CHARACTER being an unknown type, you probably have to use PLUMP:DISCOURAGED-XML-CHARACTER instead
2015-09-13T00:44:31Z lpaste_: fiddlerwoaroof pasted “Simpler example” at http://lpaste.net/140803
2015-09-13T00:44:39Z PuercoPop: I'm sure there is a muffle warnings in sb-ext that should take care of it. Btw, drakma:http-request -> plump:parse errors out over here
2015-09-13T00:45:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the url is probably serving the wrong content type
2015-09-13T00:46:01Z PuercoPop: I need to call octet-to-string in between
2015-09-13T00:46:19Z PuercoPop: and I get no warnings
2015-09-13T00:46:30Z PuercoPop: wait nvm
2015-09-13T00:46:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just push something into drakma:*text-content-types*
2015-09-13T00:46:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: or something
2015-09-13T00:47:54Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: I get no warning here http://lpaste.net/140798
2015-09-13T00:48:10Z PuercoPop: But I think you can solve this easily with this: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html
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2015-09-13T00:48:30Z PuercoPop: (haven't tried it though, as I am unable to reproduce)
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2015-09-13T00:48:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does the newer paste http://lpaste.net/140803 fail for you?
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2015-09-13T00:52:28Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: the problem is that A in HANDLER-BIND is not a known (condition) type. while previous SBCL versions didn't handle this case well, recent versions will warn at compile-time that A is an undefined type and signal an appropriate error at runtime
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2015-09-13T00:54:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: Ok, I think that explains it.  I just noticed that I can't reproduce it on my mac (SBCL 1.2.14) while it fails on my Debian computer (1.2.4)
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2015-09-13T00:57:52Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: http://lpaste.net/140803
2015-09-13T00:58:03Z noHue6: Should I write my own CFFI bindings for ioctl() and mmap() or there is a way more simple?
2015-09-13T01:03:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: Thanks
2015-09-13T01:04:50Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: np
2015-09-13T01:07:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I need to switch my desktop os
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2015-09-13T01:27:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, at least, install update sbcl from the one provided by Debian
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2015-09-13T01:40:34Z noHue6: Oh, seems like sb-posix has both implemented.
2015-09-13T01:42:40Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah. Can you M-. to the implementation's source code with the deb package?
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2015-09-13T01:53:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: I'm not sure, I don't use Emacs
2015-09-13T01:54:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I probably should eventually learn it, but it's alot faster to use neovim/slimv with all its warts
2015-09-13T01:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: (for me, at least)
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2015-09-13T01:56:12Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: sure, slimv is fine. I'm sure it has an equivalent command to edit-definition/jump-to-source
2015-09-13T01:56:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I still need to learn that kind of thing
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2015-09-13T01:58:19Z axion: hmm, i heard uiop can pretty much replace cl-fad, but i'm having trouble finding a replacement for some of cl-fad's functions
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2015-09-13T04:02:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-13T04:13:08Z aeth: Is there a list of simple algorithms with a pseudocode or detailed description that's detailed, but not as detailed as Wikipedia? Wikipedia has way too much noise (i.e. [[List of algorithms]] has too many and the articles are of too varying quality). I want to get some Lisp practice and Google's being useless here.
2015-09-13T04:15:45Z Arathnim: aeth:  Have you considered doing something like project euler in Lisp?  It might be more exciting than implementing a list of algorithms.
2015-09-13T04:15:46Z Bike: aeth: i like rosetta code.
2015-09-13T04:15:49Z Bike: or taocp.
2015-09-13T04:16:30Z aeth: I am aware of Rosetta Code, but I suspect if I try to use it, it will have a similar noise issue as Wikipedia lists (i.e. way too many, of too varying difficulty and description quality, making it hard to find what to do)
2015-09-13T04:18:47Z beach: aeth: What is it that you consider "noise"?
2015-09-13T04:19:05Z Bike: but personally i had no luck implementing algorithms. insofar as i'm a "good programmer", it's from writing programs. writing something to scrape forum posts might be more educational than writing the ninety thousandth Eratosthenes sieve.
2015-09-13T04:19:29Z aeth: beach: by noise I mean e.g. look at http://rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=Special:Ask&offset=0&limit=100&q=[[Is+task%3A%3Atrue]]&p=mainlabel%3D%2Fformat%3Dbroadtable&sort=_MDAT&order=DESC and http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks
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2015-09-13T04:19:38Z aeth: oh wow the URL is complicated, sorry
2015-09-13T04:20:11Z aeth: it includes things like "Scope modifiers" and "infinity" and "FTP"
2015-09-13T04:20:40Z aeth: Bike: I already wrote that one :-p
2015-09-13T04:20:47Z Bike: see!
2015-09-13T04:21:15Z aeth: If I write it as a vector, in SBCL, with the proper optimizations, I can get it to be quite fast even if I use delete at the end to get rid of the NILs
2015-09-13T04:21:54Z aeth: It's not a very Lispy algorithm, though. Optimizing it means basically lots of using DO as if it was C afaik.
2015-09-13T04:22:31Z aeth: two DOs and a DOTIMES, actually.
2015-09-13T04:22:53Z Bike: well, extend it to arbitrary fields and go from there
2015-09-13T04:23:41Z aeth: uh... it's not very extendable in its optimized form afaik.
2015-09-13T04:24:05Z Bike: unoptimize it then. have some fun dammit
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2015-09-13T04:25:55Z aeth: idk it was fun to see a side of SBCL I've never seen before, since I haven't really (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) with type declarations before. (Although the optimizations I'm talking that make it harder to extend about are mathematical, not SBCLical)
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2015-09-13T04:31:02Z aeth: Bike: what website is taocp? Do you mean the giant series of books taocp?
2015-09-13T04:31:12Z Bike: i do mean the giant series of books.
2015-09-13T04:32:06Z aeth: Arathnim: I have a project euler account, for some reason I never got around to doing anything there though. It might be that it's a list of 514. I don't like starting things without finishing, I do that too often.
2015-09-13T04:35:41Z Arathnim: It's a good way to pick up, or practice, a new language or two.  The problems present interesting algorithmic challenges, and allow you to explore the limits and power of a language.
2015-09-13T04:40:22Z aeth: ugh but I'm solving problem 1 in LOOP instead of in Lisp
2015-09-13T04:40:39Z aeth: (no, not looping from 1 to 1000, that would be wasteful)
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2015-09-13T04:46:32Z beach: drmeister: Around?
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2015-09-13T04:49:22Z beach: drmeister: I think it is risky that the C++ compiler will optimize out your tags in loops, and consider them to be loop-invariant computations.  The only solution I can see is to teach MPS to consider anything that points into the heap to be a potential pointer.
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2015-09-13T05:07:33Z aeth: how big do integers get in a typical CL implementation? because I'm getting some pretty big integers.
2015-09-13T05:07:48Z beach: aeth: As big as the memory.
2015-09-13T05:08:03Z aeth: oh haha
2015-09-13T05:08:05Z aeth: nice
2015-09-13T05:08:34Z aeth: most-positive-double-float?
2015-09-13T05:08:53Z aeth: I'm getting 1.7976931348623157d308 for that
2015-09-13T05:09:27Z aeth: (sbcl, clisp, ecl)
2015-09-13T05:09:44Z Bike: that's ieee
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2015-09-13T05:09:50Z Bike: so it's pretty consistent
2015-09-13T05:10:03Z aeth: Does CL somehow get integers larger than that?
2015-09-13T05:10:16Z Bike: possibly, but i wouldn't count on it.
2015-09-13T05:10:21Z aeth: I have never tried to get really big numbers before but all these helper functions for Euler kind of made me want to see
2015-09-13T05:10:26Z Bike: the "somehow" is the integers extending into memory.
2015-09-13T05:10:32Z Bike: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/ also see: classic article on lolness
2015-09-13T05:11:01Z Bike: you can see "A bignum was implemented as an array", and this is more or less true in modern times as well.
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2015-09-13T05:12:57Z Bike: floats are represented completely differently. perhaps ironically, TAOCP would be a good resource on the basics of how floats work, if not the vagaries of IEEE floats
2015-09-13T05:12:58Z beach: aeth: I would think that most Common Lisp implementation would allow integers larger than most-positive-double-float.
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2015-09-13T05:13:44Z beach: aeth: The one you are seeing is less than 10^309.  Try (expt 10 400) on your implementation.  It should work, no problem.
2015-09-13T05:14:19Z Bike: oh. so it does. i'm so bad at scale.
2015-09-13T05:14:23Z aeth: Bike, beach: Oh, sorry, I'm used to programming languages that are lazily designed instead of eagerly designed by people who want elaborate number systems.
2015-09-13T05:14:54Z Bike: i've had numbers fill up my whole screen before but i thought of that as less than three hundred digits. pfaw.
2015-09-13T05:14:59Z aeth: Bike: The number I was seeing was only about half as long as (expt 10 400)
2015-09-13T05:15:15Z aeth: Bike: I'm playing around with fibonacci numbers and they grow a lot faster than my intuition would have told me
2015-09-13T05:15:22Z Bike: exponentially, yes.
2015-09-13T05:15:22Z aeth: So I'm getting huge numbers I've never seen in SLIME before
2015-09-13T05:15:54Z Bike: well, try writing out the ackermann function and despair that you can't even see (ack 4 4).
2015-09-13T05:16:02Z aeth: only took to about 2100 to get longer than (expt 10 400)
2015-09-13T05:16:54Z Bike: try working out a closed form expression for fibonacci to get an idea of the growth, and then the nice linalg implementation For Speed.
2015-09-13T05:17:18Z beach: aeth: If you have (say) a Gigabyte of heap, then you should be able to get integers with around 8 billion binary digits.  Let's not exaggerate, so let's say one billion binary digits.  That's (expt 2 1000000000), which is around (expt 10 300000000).
2015-09-13T05:17:58Z beach: aeth: Don't try to print such a number though.  Printing it will likely kill your process.
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2015-09-13T05:18:19Z aeth: It looks like vector element 1916 is the smallest number larger than (expt 10 400)
2015-09-13T05:18:21Z Bike: arithmetic: easy. memory: less easy. printing text: very difficult
2015-09-13T05:18:25Z aeth: and I'm glitching SLIME and/or emacs with these large numbers
2015-09-13T05:18:36Z aeth: The editable text is disappearing sometimes.
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2015-09-13T05:18:54Z Bike: C-c M-o to clear the buffer. always good to get a fresh start
2015-09-13T05:19:08Z aeth: too many very large numbers I guess
2015-09-13T05:20:07Z aeth: all I was doing (after the huge printing) was using the REPL to manually binary search (> (aref (fib 2050) 1916) (expt 10 400))
2015-09-13T05:20:19Z aeth: 1915 is NIL, 1916 is T.
2015-09-13T05:20:30Z Bike: do try working it out more analytically. it's fun.
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2015-09-13T05:20:51Z aeth: well I was working it out with an algorithm, I just didn't code the binary search because it's so fast that I could do it by hand in just a few terms
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2015-09-13T05:22:52Z aeth: I guess SLIME is basically a CAS with the right libraries.
2015-09-13T05:23:23Z aeth: Is there any graphing plugin to the SLIME+emacs REPL yet?
2015-09-13T05:23:33Z beach: aeth: There is a closed-form expression for the Fibonacci numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Closed-form_expression
2015-09-13T05:23:52Z aeth: how did I miss that
2015-09-13T05:24:07Z aeth: I guess because I wasn't searching for the right phrase
2015-09-13T05:24:09Z Bike: i was trying to get aeth to derive it themselves :(
2015-09-13T05:24:16Z beach: Oh, sorry!
2015-09-13T05:24:36Z aeth: Bike: ok fine I'll close it
2015-09-13T05:24:48Z Bike: to be fair, it's pretty hard to do...
2015-09-13T05:25:07Z beach: I would think so, yes.
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2015-09-13T05:26:28Z aeth: Right now all I worked out (I guess I can discuss it even though Euler doesn't like discussing since this isn't exactly what the problem is and it's the wrong answer) was a simple dotimes on a vector with two conditions, one for < 2, one for > 2, since the fib that starts at 0 can be generated from 0 1 instead of 1 1.
2015-09-13T05:27:22Z aeth: The traditional tail recursive solution is (I heard) inefficient and because vectors are probably better for something like this (I can make-array to be n in a dotimes (i n)
2015-09-13T05:27:32Z aeth: s/and because/I did this because/
2015-09-13T05:28:24Z aeth: Of course this means I either create a new giant vector each time I compute or I let this huge vector sit in the memory
2015-09-13T05:29:17Z Bike: the point of euler problems is, thankfully, not to get the right answer.
2015-09-13T05:35:45Z aeth: Well, no I mean this isn't the right fib algorithm anyway, this is to generate up to fib-n, not up to n
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2015-09-13T05:36:09Z aeth: Even though it's not that different.
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2015-09-13T05:36:18Z beach: aeth: Tell me again what problem you are trying to solve?
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2015-09-13T05:37:42Z aeth: beach: I already solved it.
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2015-09-13T05:37:50Z aeth: I wasn't trying to solve it, I was having fun with huge numbers
2015-09-13T05:38:05Z aeth: The first few dozen are probably below my level
2015-09-13T05:38:37Z Bike: yeah, numbers only really get good around 97, imo
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2015-09-13T05:47:19Z aeth: Lisp probably makes some of these too easy to solve naively since there's e.g. reduce, delete-if, etc.
2015-09-13T05:47:56Z aeth: Not efficient, but solvable in minutes with the right knowledge of the hyperspec.
2015-09-13T05:48:14Z Bike: more like, it's easy to be more motivated to find a good log n time algorithm when your computer doesn't perform an addition every tenth of a nanosecond
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2015-09-13T06:01:51Z aeth: Arathnim: Euler is the most fun I've had in days, thanks for the recommendation
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2015-09-13T06:02:19Z Arathnim: np
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2015-09-13T06:14:21Z ULTRAGAY: http://imgur.com/BptRyJQ
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2015-09-13T06:15:14Z Quadrescence: DO not click that link.
2015-09-13T06:15:19Z Quadrescence: It is illegal.
2015-09-13T06:16:17Z Bike: you tryin to insinuate that "ULTRAGAY" might not be trustworthy
2015-09-13T06:16:28Z Quadrescence: u bet
2015-09-13T06:16:38Z Quadrescence: i know that may be way out of line for me
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2015-09-13T06:43:40Z noHue6: Is it a way to automatically generate constants file for sb-grovel?
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2015-09-13T06:53:52Z noHue6: Ok, I should use CFFI instead.
2015-09-13T06:54:20Z beach: I suggest you don't use FFI at all, and write your programs in Common Lisp instead.
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2015-09-13T06:59:20Z noHue6: I only need some struct definitions from system's header file.
2015-09-13T06:59:32Z noHue6: To pass it to sb-posix:ioctl
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2015-09-13T07:04:21Z beach: It's for situations like that, that I started this project: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/
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2015-09-13T07:04:38Z beach: But it will take some time before it is finished.
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2015-09-13T07:08:53Z noHue6: Very interesting. Is this project available on github?
2015-09-13T07:09:02Z beach: It is, yes.  Hold on...
2015-09-13T07:09:31Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Closix
2015-09-13T07:10:00Z DeadTrickster: beach, why sb-posix and iolib aren't enough?
2015-09-13T07:11:26Z beach: DeadTrickster: Oh, don't mind my grumpiness.  I just think it would be good to have a well-documented, "natural"-looking API for Common Lisp.  Most people are happy to restrict themselves to SBCL and some FFI to get the job done.
2015-09-13T07:12:09Z beach: I personally think it is sad to see how much combined energy is put into FFI-based solutions, with all the problems they create, when this combined energy could be used to create a more native-looking Common Lisp solution.
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2015-09-13T07:12:47Z beach: DeadTrickster: But that's just me (and pjb, and a few others) so you can safely ignore me and declare this project "pointless", in which case you would be in good company.
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2015-09-13T07:13:14Z DeadTrickster: beach, hold on, hold on, don't push the horses
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2015-09-13T07:13:54Z Bike: what does that expression mean?
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2015-09-13T07:14:03Z DeadTrickster: beach, can you tell me the difference by example?
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2015-09-13T07:15:00Z DeadTrickster: beach, also repo you linked contains htmls only :-(
2015-09-13T07:15:15Z drmeister: Howdy
2015-09-13T07:15:24Z beach: DeadTrickster: Not really, since I am not familiar with sb-posix.  But for one thing, the API I am suggesting would not use FFI, so it would not have any foreign structures and such.
2015-09-13T07:15:47Z beach: DeadTrickster: Yes, as the index page explains, it is a specification only for now.
2015-09-13T07:16:02Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-09-13T07:17:09Z DeadTrickster: beach, I'm starting to understand - you want posix api but implemented fully in CL?
2015-09-13T07:17:50Z Bike: stracing a process is pretty fascinating, i must say
2015-09-13T07:17:55Z beach: It can be implemented in whatever way the implementers feel appropriate, as long as it presents itself as a native-looking API to the users.
2015-09-13T07:19:18Z DeadTrickster: beach, so sb-posix and iolib can count if complied with described api.
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2015-09-13T07:19:22Z beach: DeadTrickster: I would also like it to be the same for all Common Lisp implementations.  That's the easy part though.  The hard part is to design it so that it looks as "natural" as possible to a Common Lisp programmer, given that the underlying system is really a C virtual machine.
2015-09-13T07:20:15Z beach: DeadTrickster: I seriously doubt it.  Let me look at the documentation for sb-posix to answer that.
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2015-09-13T07:21:13Z beach: DeadTrickster: For one thing, the documentation would not work, since it explains things in terms of C: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Lisp-names-for-C-names
2015-09-13T07:21:35Z loke````: beach: Then you wouldn't want to expose something Unix-like. You really want an extension of the existing IO mechanisms in CL and also cover stuff like threading, multiplexed IO etc.
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2015-09-13T07:22:38Z beach: I just love it when people tell me what I want.
2015-09-13T07:22:50Z loke````: beach: Helpful, isn't it?
2015-09-13T07:23:04Z DeadTrickster: or better port green threads everywhere, steal otp scheduler and forget about multiplexing at user-level
2015-09-13T07:23:05Z loke````: Help breaking out of one's own (possibly narrow) view of a problem.
2015-09-13T07:23:36Z loke````: DeadTrickster: That limits flexibility though.
2015-09-13T07:23:46Z DeadTrickster: hows that?
2015-09-13T07:24:32Z beach: DeadTrickster: I can't answer your question from reading the documentation of sb-posix.  I would need a documentation for it that does not mention the underlying C system in order to determine whether it would be a good candidate.
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2015-09-13T07:25:33Z loke````: DeadTrickster: Because it'd lock you into a thread/task-based implementation. Sometimes one does not want that. And the underlying mechanmism to handle multiplexed IO is just that, things like poll()/select() so it'll all just boil down to that eventually anyway.
2015-09-13T07:25:46Z loke````: At least in current operating systems, that's how it works.
2015-09-13T07:30:00Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: OK, great.
2015-09-13T07:30:20Z beach: I hope to see the day when we could inverse the proportions of different types of activities here in #lisp.  Right now it is way much more common to tell people that they should have done things differently from what they did than to actually do something to further Common Lisp.
2015-09-13T07:30:32Z DeadTrickster: loke````, as I said I would like to forget multiplexing on user level only - it's important part of the scheduler though. Also you can't use giant streams based code chunk.
2015-09-13T07:30:55Z DeadTrickster: Also personally, I don't like callbacks, promises and all that crap
2015-09-13T07:31:35Z loke````: DeadTrickster: That's fair enough. And the Erlang way is kinda neat. This mechanism should definitely be available in CL, but I feel that the right way to do it is to expose enough of the underlying infrastructure so that such a system can be built on top of it.
2015-09-13T07:32:15Z loke````: (as opposed to the other way, in which you'd have to redesign a multiplexing system on top of the lightweight threads just to recover functionality that the operating system uses to implement those trheads in the first place)
2015-09-13T07:33:11Z DeadTrickster: yeah that is why I dream sometimes green threads backported from cmucl back to sbcl. I wonder if one can write all-portable green threads implementation with erlang-lke reduction scheduler.
2015-09-13T07:33:19Z DeadTrickster: seems like too low-lever to me
2015-09-13T07:33:45Z beach: drmeister: Did you see my remark to you?
2015-09-13T07:34:05Z drmeister: Which one?  When?
2015-09-13T07:34:17Z beach: drmeister: Hold on...
2015-09-13T07:34:29Z Shinmera: Good morning.
2015-09-13T07:34:56Z beach: drmeister: I think it is risky that the C++ compiler will optimize out your tags in loops, and consider them to be loop-invariant computations.  The only solution I can see is to teach MPS to consider anything that points into the heap to be a potential pointer.
2015-09-13T07:35:20Z beach: drmeister: If you teach MPS to recognized both tagged and untagged pointers, you also don't have to modify your C++ code so that it uses tagged pointers.
2015-09-13T07:35:28Z beach: Hello Shinmera.
2015-09-13T07:36:44Z drmeister: beach: Got it.  The thing is that at first it wasn't optimizing out tags in loops.  I forgot to put the tags in the loops in the first place.  Yesterday I implemented an iterator that uses tags.  I'm still experiencing problems.  So just to protect myself I taught MPS to recognize both tagged and untagged pointers as you suggest.
2015-09-13T07:37:18Z drmeister: Despite that I'm still experiencing problems.   So I'm implementing a high speed telemetry system so that I can track every GC operation.
2015-09-13T07:37:19Z beach: drmeister: I think that's the only safe solution.
2015-09-13T07:37:33Z drmeister: And it's not a bad solution.
2015-09-13T07:37:41Z beach: Right.
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2015-09-13T07:41:50Z Bike: Wait, doesn't MPS already have tons of telemetry.
2015-09-13T07:42:02Z beach: drmeister: That's all I wanted to say.  Even if you modify all your C++ code to use tagged pointers, you are not safe from the compiler converting the addition of a tag followed by the subtraction of that tag to a NOP.
2015-09-13T07:42:17Z drmeister: Bike: It does - but not quite what I need.
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2015-09-13T07:42:58Z Bike: really? even with all the hooks?
2015-09-13T07:43:15Z drmeister: All I can see is a way to associate one address with one label.  Is there more?
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2015-09-13T07:43:31Z Bike: it's, like, an entire chapter of the manual, isn't it?
2015-09-13T07:44:08Z Bike: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/topic/telemetry.html that is
2015-09-13T07:44:25Z Bike: it even outputs as a sql database. for some reason.
2015-09-13T07:45:59Z drmeister: I read it all - I don't see how to log everything I want to log.
2015-09-13T07:47:06Z Bike: as far as i can tell it can log everything mps does. do you also need to log, like, tagging that isn't associated with mps, or something?
2015-09-13T07:48:15Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Thanks a lot for the feedback by the way.
2015-09-13T07:48:31Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: np, you're always welcome.
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2015-09-13T07:52:11Z drmeister: I want to log every allocation, pointer fix, scan, skip, fwd, isfwd, pad - some of these need to record an address and one or two other words of information (object type, size or in the case of fwd the address being forwarded to).
2015-09-13T07:52:11Z Shinmera: beach: Yesterday I had a thought regarding your LispOS: in the systems we use today all the programs are saved to file, so there's a "recoverable state" that you can in most cases go back to when a program screws itself up. This is also why rebooting is so magical. If the system uses a singular storage, wouldn't this get lost? And in general, how do you intend on handling the case where a program screws itself
2015-09-13T07:52:13Z Shinmera: over badly or does something similarly faulty that locks up the machine?
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2015-09-13T07:53:13Z Shinmera: If everything is always in limbo between RAM and safe storage, things get kind of... uncertain.
2015-09-13T07:53:33Z drmeister: The MPS telemetry facility supports user events but it only appears to be able to associate one address with a label.  That's not enough - I'd like to associate one to three words with a label.
2015-09-13T07:54:23Z Bike: i mean, i t hink it already has those things as events, and seems to have plenty of information for them. like the example has "000AE039733592F9 002B VMCreate            vm:00000001003FE000 base:00000001003FF000 limit:000000010992F000"
2015-09-13T07:54:31Z Bike: so i'm just wondering if you've tried it. save work and all.
2015-09-13T07:55:03Z drmeister: I've tried it, it logs a lot of MPS stuff.   My problem is not MPS, it's my pointers.
2015-09-13T07:55:27Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, there has to be some additional checks for that.  I suggest you read the latest chapter of Fare's blog.
2015-09-13T07:55:31Z Bike: oh well.
2015-09-13T07:55:53Z Shinmera: beach: Alright.
2015-09-13T07:55:55Z drmeister: I was logging things by printing them to stdout - but I can only catch errors that happen early in startup because printing to stdout really slows things down.
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2015-09-13T07:57:38Z drmeister: I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out if MPS telemetry would do what I need - I decided it didn't - so I spent a couple of hours implementing my own.
2015-09-13T07:57:55Z beach: Shinmera: There is no universal protection for bugs in the code.  A bug could be in the code for the file system and then, rebooting would not fix it.
2015-09-13T07:58:30Z Shinmera: beach: Of course.
2015-09-13T07:58:58Z beach: Shinmera: So I think one must identify the places where bugs could screw up the system and try to make those places as safe as possible.
2015-09-13T07:59:03Z Shinmera: beach: But in general for cases like a power outage, having a 'committed state' of sorts is preferable to have.
2015-09-13T07:59:14Z beach: For the rest, you would just provide tools for fixing the problem introduced.
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2015-09-13T07:59:37Z beach: Shinmera: The power outage is a special case that I discuss specifically.
2015-09-13T08:00:12Z beach: Shinmera: I seriously advocate putting a battery on your computer.  But for those who aren't convinced, I suggest an improvement to the Eros crash-proof system.
2015-09-13T08:01:23Z beach: Furthermore, crash-proof system will become a lot cheaper in the neat future: http://www.micron.com/about/innovations/3d-xpoint-technology
2015-09-13T08:01:30Z beach: NEAR future
2015-09-13T08:01:39Z beach: It might be neat as well of course.
2015-09-13T08:01:42Z Shinmera: :)
2015-09-13T08:02:52Z beach: This new technology will allow the software to save all RAM to a non-volatile memory a few thousand times faster than it takes to save to disk today.
2015-09-13T08:04:12Z Shinmera: What a time to be alive.
2015-09-13T08:04:25Z beach: We are very lucky.
2015-09-13T08:05:21Z beach: Shinmera: Thanks for bringing this up.  It is always interesting to hear what people think.
2015-09-13T08:05:39Z beach: ... and for me to explain what I was thinking when I wrote that stuff.
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2015-09-13T08:05:41Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not sure why it came to mind, but I couldn't quite think of a solution, so I thought I'd mention it.
2015-09-13T08:05:51Z beach: Yeah.  Good.
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2015-09-13T08:08:31Z beach: Shinmera: There is a lot of strange thinking in this area.  I was lucky to spend a year with Jim Goodman (the inventor of the cache-coherence protocol and of speculative lock elision) as a colleague.  He is a very smart guy and he helped me clear up a lot of that kind of strange thinking.
2015-09-13T08:09:29Z beach: He especially helped me think hard about what "crash proof" means.
2015-09-13T08:10:48Z flip214: ITERATE in SBCL will not show the exact source location when an error occurs; the ***HERE*** marker is just before the (ITER ...) form.
2015-09-13T08:10:54Z clique: "crash proof" the book?
2015-09-13T08:10:57Z flip214: is there some way to enhance that error reporting?
2015-09-13T08:11:17Z beach: clique: No, the term "crash proof" used in a lot of OS literature.
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2015-09-13T08:17:17Z clique: ah ok, it's something similar to bulletproofing...
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2015-09-13T08:18:47Z flip214: ie. is there some better implementation (hu.dwim?) or some trick to get the right form into the debug information?
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2015-09-13T08:24:23Z scymtym: flip214: i think pkhuong (in #sbcl) mentioned an idea
2015-09-13T08:24:54Z beach: clique: That's exactly what is debatable.  Different authors put different meaning into the word.  For example, the "power failure" scenario that e.g. the Eros system handles is quite different from the "faulty software" scenario.  Things get complicated when people confuse the two.
2015-09-13T08:25:43Z beach: clique: So the first question to ask is "why would the system crash?".
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2015-09-13T08:28:00Z beach: Other scenarios include "random error in transfer from RAM to persistent memory."
2015-09-13T08:31:27Z clique: yes but formal verification techniques that are possible for small systems (microkernels) are not so easely scalable to large systems.
2015-09-13T08:31:52Z drmeister: Bike: One thing I want to do with my telemetry system is track pointers all the way back to when they were allocated - through all of their moves.
2015-09-13T08:31:53Z beach: clique: Yes, and I don't generally advocate formal verification.
2015-09-13T08:32:21Z beach: clique: I would be happy to have a LispOS that is as reliable as the GNU/Linux system I use on a daily basis.
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2015-09-13T08:37:55Z clique: but is proved the "crashworthiness" of a typical GNU/linux system?
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2015-09-13T08:40:44Z clique: I mean a system used for daily applications...like reading emails, use a web browser... such kind of daily tasks
2015-09-13T08:42:26Z beach: I don't think anything has been formally verified.  I am just talking about how it feels to me.
2015-09-13T08:43:13Z clique: so a "crash proof" is a nonsense in this context.
2015-09-13T08:43:35Z Shinmera: It's "crash proof" not "proven to not crash"
2015-09-13T08:43:50Z beach: Right, big difference.
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2015-09-13T08:44:14Z clique: explain me the difference, I'm not to sure to understand well...
2015-09-13T08:44:24Z beach: clique: It means that you don't lose any data (or not much at least) when the system crashes.
2015-09-13T08:44:48Z beach: And if you lose data, it should just be the last few seconds or minutes of what you did.
2015-09-13T08:44:52Z Shinmera: clique: "proof" as an adjective: "able to withstand something damaging; resistant."
2015-09-13T08:48:15Z clique: "crash proof" implies a formal verification?
2015-09-13T08:48:26Z beach: Not usually, no.
2015-09-13T08:48:27Z Shinmera: No.
2015-09-13T08:49:06Z Shinmera: If something is crash proof it just means it's shielded (at least partially) from the damage done by a crash.
2015-09-13T08:49:15Z clique: ok, I was misunderstanding
2015-09-13T08:49:27Z Shinmera: You can get to this meaning by understanding what "proof" means, which is what I told you before.
2015-09-13T08:50:01Z beach: clique: Example: the ext3 file system is "crash proof".
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2015-09-13T08:52:25Z clique: ok, now it's a little bit more clear
2015-09-13T08:52:36Z beach: Good!
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2015-09-13T08:57:32Z beach: drmeister: Your problems with using MPS are a bit disconcerting to me.  After all, the point of using it seems to be that it has a well-defined API, and it easy to plug into a system like yours.
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2015-09-13T09:08:09Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: I hope the mail address listed on your github still works.
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2015-09-13T09:10:21Z noHue6: Consider 9p and loading kernel from distributed LispOS-network.
2015-09-13T09:10:29Z noHue6: That'll be awesome.
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2015-09-13T09:11:08Z jackdaniel: quicklisp-projects will hit #1000 "Please add/update" issues
2015-09-13T09:11:18Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-09-13T09:11:30Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-09-13T09:12:02Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-09-13T10:35:49Z Guthur: beach: re the posix-api project: I was wondering if there is really a problem to solve here. Correct me if I am wrong, but most non-C languages seem to cope without such an API
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2015-09-13T10:37:32Z Guthur: Though I'm certainly all in favour of initiatives that can bring cohesiveness to CL
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2015-09-13T10:45:15Z pjb: Guthur: only because it's a lot of work to define language specific POSIX APIs. But notice that some languages have it.
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2015-09-13T10:57:43Z beach: Guthur: I don't know very much about POSIX APIs for non-C languages.  Sorry.
2015-09-13T10:58:39Z beach: Guthur: I also don't know what the absence of such APIs would tell me.
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2015-09-13T11:11:17Z Guthur: beach: I'm interested in knowing what your think will be added to CL. For me it seems like it will be a lot of effort and I am struggling a little to see what will be the significant return on that investment.
2015-09-13T11:11:34Z pjb: A standard API to the OS layer.
2015-09-13T11:11:38Z Guthur: I'm not meaning to belittle the endeavour or anything, just trying to learn something
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2015-09-13T11:11:58Z pjb: Guthur: for example, for now, the only standard way to access the file system is thru physical pathnames, which are entirely implementation dependant.
2015-09-13T11:12:23Z Guthur: pjb: An OS that complies with POSIX, what about Windows, from my understanding it's not so compliant
2015-09-13T11:12:26Z pjb: You cannot use a namestring such as "/etc/passwd" in CL conformingly or portably to access a POSIX file.
2015-09-13T11:12:44Z pjb: Guthur: MS-Windows has a POSIX compatibility library.
2015-09-13T11:12:56Z Guthur: oh, was not aware of that
2015-09-13T11:13:18Z pjb: Anyways: 1- MS-Windows is becoming irrelevant very fast. 2- there's logical pathnames to deal with MS-Windows.
2015-09-13T11:14:19Z Guthur: pjb: Are you eluding to rise in non-desktop OS?
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2015-09-13T11:15:18Z Guthur: on desktop the MS Window decline has been rather slow
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2015-09-13T11:16:18Z Guthur: but I suppose that is all rather tangential
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2015-09-13T11:16:28Z jackdaniel: ms windows is being eaten by osx (not that I have any warm feeling for any of both companies)
2015-09-13T11:16:58Z jackdaniel: baking companies°
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2015-09-13T11:18:10Z pjb: Guthur: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2956574/microsoft-subnet/windows-10-privacy-spyware-settings-user-agreement.html
2015-09-13T11:18:40Z Guthur: jackdaniel: there is really no figures to suggest that
2015-09-13T11:18:54Z Guthur: OSX on desktop is a relatively small market share
2015-09-13T11:19:00Z pjb: It is already known that MS-Windows has a lot of backdoors, and so nobody in his right mind should use it, but it's getting even worse, and those new "features" are being backported to MS-Windows-7 and 8!
2015-09-13T11:19:41Z Guthur: pjb: but that has always been the case, I think sentiment may have been even worse in the past for Windows
2015-09-13T11:19:46Z pjb: It should be a criminal offense against the state to use MS-Windows in any country.
2015-09-13T11:20:42Z oleo: heh
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2015-09-13T11:21:14Z Guthur: possibly, and some states do encourage the use of Linux over Windows for their governance offices
2015-09-13T11:21:35Z pjb: Most countries forbid the indiscriminate possession and use of weapons.  MS-Windows should be forbidden for the same reason.
2015-09-13T11:21:35Z jackdaniel: Guthur: the best proof that ms is in trouble is the fact, that we dispute about that - who would put in question ms dominance 10 years ago?
2015-09-13T11:22:03Z Guthur: I'm not disputing I'm categorically saying there are no figures to suggest it
2015-09-13T11:22:06Z Guthur: prove me wrong
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2015-09-13T11:22:46Z pjb: Guthur: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/185937-in-2015-tablet-sales-will-finally-surpass-pcs-fulfilling-steve-jobs-post-pc-prophecy
2015-09-13T11:22:50Z jackdaniel: Guthur: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/15/windows_desktop_and_laptop_market_share_dips_below_90_per_cent/
2015-09-13T11:23:14Z Guthur: tablet is irrelevant because I specified desktop
2015-09-13T11:24:10Z Guthur: below 90%, if between 80% and 90% is not dominance i don't know what is
2015-09-13T11:24:21Z pjb: There are desktop Android systems.
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2015-09-13T11:25:55Z jackdaniel: I think there is a difference between omnipotence and falling share. Anyway, its not #lisp discussion
2015-09-13T11:27:02Z Guthur: yeah, we very much got away from my initial line of questioning
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2015-09-13T11:38:19Z DeadTrickster: if I have x86 android phone with atom processor will it run linux sbcl build?
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2015-09-13T14:23:24Z jackdaniel tries to run cepl on ECL (buidling cl-opengl-bindings now)
2015-09-13T14:23:30Z jackdaniel: CEPL°
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2015-09-13T14:46:50Z flip214: scymtym: thanks, but when?
2015-09-13T14:47:26Z flip214: (re Xach in #sbcl, about better debugability of ITERATE)
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2015-09-13T14:47:59Z axion: is uiop preferred to use in place of cl-fad?
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2015-09-13T14:51:08Z Guthur: axion: There was a post about CL eco system recently which recommended UIOP over CL-FAD
2015-09-13T14:52:15Z axion: Guthur: Yes, I read that and others that did as well, but I am unable to port code fully with some missing functions
2015-09-13T14:52:17Z jackdaniel: uiop supersedes cl-fad in respect of functionality (etc), but it is undocumented
2015-09-13T14:52:21Z jackdaniel: so pick what you find better
2015-09-13T14:53:10Z axion: one example of many: how would you port cl-fad code using merge-pathnames-as-file?
2015-09-13T14:53:28Z scymtym: flip214: i can't point you to anything specific. he mentioned it on several occasions. the most recent/only thing i can refer you to is https://twitter.com/pkhuong/status/622470692127150081
2015-09-13T14:56:57Z axion: jackdaniel: that's odd, because reading the API i do not see a 1:1 functionality
2015-09-13T14:57:23Z flip214: scymtym: thanks a lot, will try to find out more.
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2015-09-13T15:41:31Z PuercoPop: Does anyone know how to show the results of profiling a test in fiveam?
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2015-09-13T15:51:25Z PuercoPop: Does anyone else experience long fiveam test times? Calling djula filter tests takes 10 seconds and if I due it twice I get a heap exhausted error. If I remove all the test code (is) from the test case it only takes 130 ms.
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2015-09-13T16:06:10Z scymtym: PuercoPop: i think fiveam test are compiled at runtime to make testing macros more convenient. compilation probably is responsible for most that time. check :compile-at parameter of TEST macro
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2015-09-13T16:16:55Z PuercoPop: scymtym: That was it! Thanks.
2015-09-13T16:17:09Z scymtym: PuercoPop: np
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2015-09-13T16:21:19Z flip214: can I tell (FORMAT T "~s") to only print at most 5 characters of the string?
2015-09-13T16:21:29Z flip214: like with (printf "%5s") in C
2015-09-13T16:24:16Z flip214: or is "~{~a~}" (loop for i below 5 collect (aref string i)) the best I can do?
2015-09-13T16:25:56Z sjl: question about using fset: how can I create an fset set from a vanilla list?
2015-09-13T16:26:11Z sjl: (apply #'fset:set l) doesn't work because fset:set is a macro
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2015-09-13T16:29:39Z sjl: aha, (fset:convert 'fset:set '(1 1 2 2)) seems to do the trick
2015-09-13T16:30:29Z PuercoPop: flip214: Idk about format but you should continue using ~S and call your truncate function on the string argument instead of the iteration
2015-09-13T16:31:56Z flip214: PuercoPop: TRUNCATE is about numbers. I could get a new copy, or alias another vector into that string ... both sounds like too much noise.
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2015-09-13T16:32:45Z PuercoPop: flip214: I meant you define a truncate function, not cl:truncate
2015-09-13T16:33:38Z jackdaniel: subseq
2015-09-13T16:33:42Z jackdaniel: maybe?
2015-09-13T16:34:24Z PuercoPop: yes that would do it, with an (max n string-length) at the end position
2015-09-13T16:35:04Z jackdaniel: rather min :p
2015-09-13T16:35:12Z PuercoPop: *min
2015-09-13T16:35:16Z PuercoPop: yeah
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2015-09-13T16:36:24Z flip214: still, that would allocate....
2015-09-13T16:36:39Z flip214: I can't believe that this hasn't been solved 20 times over in the history of FORMAT.
2015-09-13T16:37:07Z PuercoPop: flip214: there is nsubseq if you don't want to allocate
2015-09-13T16:37:20Z PuercoPop: nvm
2015-09-13T16:38:31Z PuercoPop: I was misremembering xsubeq apparently https://github.com/fukamachi/xsubseq
2015-09-13T16:38:38Z flip214: PuercoPop: nsubseq is in https://www.common-lisp.net/project/tinaa/examples/kmrcl/kmrcl/function-nsubseq.html but not CL
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2015-09-13T16:40:24Z jackdaniel: if you wan't to butcher like that a list, then you could (format t "~5{~A~}" (list #\a #\b #\c #\d #\b …)
2015-09-13T16:40:27Z jackdaniel: )
2015-09-13T16:41:57Z jackdaniel: (format t "~5{~A~}" (coerce "bahbahbahbahbah" 'list))
2015-09-13T16:46:03Z flip214: The value "abc" is not of type (OR NULL (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER . #1=((*))) (SIMPLE-ARRAY NIL . #1#) SIMPLE-BASE-STRING).
2015-09-13T16:46:25Z flip214: jackdaniel: thanks. in the constructor I now allocate the aliased array, so that the print function can just write that out.
2015-09-13T16:46:46Z flip214: but why is "abc" not a (simple-array character *)?
2015-09-13T16:47:00Z jackdaniel: on what implementation? and what version?
2015-09-13T16:47:08Z flip214: sbcl, 1.2.15
2015-09-13T16:47:20Z jackdaniel: and type-of returns what?
2015-09-13T16:47:34Z flip214: the input is a #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (8)), and I do (MAKE-ARRAY n :element-type 'character :displaced-to :displaced-offset...)
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2015-09-13T16:47:53Z flip214: #<(VECTOR CHARACTER 3)
2015-09-13T16:48:11Z jackdaniel: aren't vectors simple-arrays? hmph
2015-09-13T16:48:27Z flip214: although there's no :fill-pointer and no :adjustable...
2015-09-13T16:48:28Z jackdaniel: well, maybe all these displacements make them not simple at all
2015-09-13T16:48:40Z jackdaniel has no clue
2015-09-13T16:48:45Z flip214: that's what I'm guessing, too
2015-09-13T16:50:01Z flip214: well, I just changed the slot definition to (OR NULL SIMPLE-STRING (VECTOR CHARACTER)) and all is fine.
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2015-09-13T17:04:30Z dim: Xach: if you want to close QL release easily, just skip updating cl-ixf, I believe pgloader is the only user
2015-09-13T17:04:51Z dim: and then between now and next QL release I will do a minor release of pgloader, it's now easy enough to do
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2015-09-13T17:57:44Z sjl: another fset question.  I have a set foo #{1 2 3} and want to map a function over it, returning a list.  Is (fset:convert 'list (fset:image #'somefn foo)) the idiomatic way to do this, or is there something better?
2015-09-13T17:58:05Z sjl: fset:image itself doesn't work because I want to return a list, not a set
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2015-09-13T18:33:51Z Cthulhux`: hm..
2015-09-13T18:34:05Z Cthulhux`: mocl doesn't support windows because i seem to be the only one who wants that
2015-09-13T18:34:14Z Cthulhux`: looks like testing chirp with mocl will delay a bit
2015-09-13T18:35:13Z Cthulhux`: anyone of you willing to help me with a petition? :D
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2015-09-13T18:37:18Z fe[nl]ix: Cthulhux`: what do you want to ask ?
2015-09-13T18:37:29Z Cthulhux`: to support windows! :<
2015-09-13T18:37:42Z Cthulhux`: i guess i alone am not enough people to rectify that
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2015-09-13T19:08:20Z whiteline: on a related topic, is SBCL support on windows good? Does it have any pitfalls i should be aware of?
2015-09-13T19:08:37Z whiteline: given that i develop under Linux
2015-09-13T19:08:46Z |3b|: it works well enough for a lot of uses
2015-09-13T19:08:46Z whiteline: but would like to release on windows also
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2015-09-13T19:10:08Z whiteline: |3b|: the FFI works the same?
2015-09-13T19:10:15Z |3b|: it is a bit easier to break than linux sbcl, but if you aren't going crazy with threading it should probably be OK for running stable software
2015-09-13T19:10:19Z whiteline: s/the same/as well
2015-09-13T19:10:24Z |3b|: pretty much
2015-09-13T19:10:27Z whiteline: good
2015-09-13T19:11:25Z |3b|: it tends to lock up if you run the test quite, but otherwise i haven't noticed any specific problems i can think of
2015-09-13T19:11:33Z |3b|: test suite
2015-09-13T19:11:48Z Cthulhux`: also, gtk+ doesnt work.
2015-09-13T19:12:04Z Cthulhux`: or, better, cl-cffi-gtk is broken
2015-09-13T19:12:17Z Cthulhux`: (on windows in general)
2015-09-13T19:12:23Z |3b|: well, getting specific foreign libs working can be a hassle regardless of sbcl :/
2015-09-13T19:13:17Z |3b| apparently ran into win64 specific bugs of the version of libffi from msys2 for example
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2015-09-13T19:14:15Z |3b|: also, nobody can agree on shared lib names of windows versions of things :/
2015-09-13T19:14:49Z |3b| adds "libfreeglut.dll" to the existing list of "freeglut.dll", "libglut.dll", "libglut-0.dll"
2015-09-13T19:14:59Z |3b| isn't even using glut
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2015-09-13T19:16:02Z whiteline: well i'll be hand-making ffi bindings to a few libraries probably
2015-09-13T19:16:37Z whiteline: just as long as the ffi works consistently loading from the same .dlls that i ship with the saved image
2015-09-13T19:16:40Z whiteline: it's fine
2015-09-13T19:17:16Z |3b|: yeah, just keep in mind sizes of some things may vary depending on platform
2015-09-13T19:17:21Z |3b|: when writing the bindings
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2015-09-13T19:17:52Z whiteline: i'll be making separate images and releases for x86 and x86_64 which are the only platforms i'll support
2015-09-13T19:18:18Z whiteline: do i still need to think about things?
2015-09-13T19:18:19Z |3b|: right, but i meant between for example linux x8664 and win x8664
2015-09-13T19:18:24Z whiteline: oh yeah
2015-09-13T19:18:37Z Shinmera: whiteline: I've deployed a game on both windows and linux without much of a hassle.
2015-09-13T19:18:49Z |3b|: usually if you just define things to match C it will work, assuming the lib is written sanely
2015-09-13T19:18:58Z whiteline: Shinmera: what external libraries did you use?
2015-09-13T19:19:04Z Shinmera: whiteline: Qt.
2015-09-13T19:19:08Z |3b|: unfortunately that isn't always a safe assumption :/
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2015-09-13T19:20:22Z whiteline: |3b|: well i'll just wing it
2015-09-13T19:21:00Z |3b|: yeah, i'm probably sounding more negative than i should
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2015-09-13T19:23:07Z whiteline: i did ask for pitfalls though
2015-09-13T19:24:27Z whiteline: the tooling is quite nice actually, much better than i expected. ASDF especially, and SBCL even has code coverage tools
2015-09-13T19:26:09Z whiteline: i think i have all i need to pull a full code development cycle given the limitations of my project
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2015-09-13T19:26:51Z dlang: Hi
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2015-09-13T19:51:54Z axion: Shinmera: i appreciate your work on LASS
2015-09-13T19:53:54Z Shinmera: axion: Glad to hear.
2015-09-13T19:53:59Z axion: I had it starred for a while - just now integrating it into a project
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2015-09-13T19:55:02Z axion: One question: if i wanted to serve a static CSS file generated from LASS, is there an easy way to do so, or should I just use lass:generate before i start my server?
2015-09-13T19:55:23Z Shinmera: The documentation describes how to add it to an ASDF system I believe
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2015-09-13T19:56:29Z PuercoPop: What would be the best way to define functions in a target package, using (setf ) or a defun with *package* bound to target package?
2015-09-13T19:56:44Z Shinmera: Just use the symbol name from the package?
2015-09-13T19:56:48Z Shinmera: (defun foo:bar ...) =
2015-09-13T19:56:50Z Shinmera: *?
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2015-09-13T20:01:32Z PuercoPop: so a defun combined with intern? (the foo is set, the back is an argument to the macro)
2015-09-13T20:02:20Z Shinmera: (defmacro my-defun (name args &body body) `(defun ,(intern (string name) :package) ,args ,@body))
2015-09-13T20:02:27Z axion: Shinmera: that works. now i'm even more wowed. good job
2015-09-13T20:03:14Z Shinmera: axion: You might also want to add the emacs plugin so it automatically recompiles when you save the file.
2015-09-13T20:03:42Z axion: Shinmera: i saw that, but i do not use emacs
2015-09-13T20:03:48Z Shinmera: Aight.
2015-09-13T20:04:00Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: seems reasonable, thanks.
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2015-09-13T21:18:31Z |3b|: what's the best/easiest way to do both input and output to a long-running child process with uiop:run-program? (primarily on sbcl/windows if it matters)
2015-09-13T21:18:46Z |3b|: or using something else if there is a better option than uiop
2015-09-13T21:19:17Z phoe_krk: `join #networking
2015-09-13T21:19:20Z phoe_krk: kjhvkdjhkdgj
2015-09-13T21:21:04Z |3b| thought i had it working previously by passing LAMBDAs to both :input and :output that sat in loops doing IO, but now it isn't working, and not sure if something changed or if i just misremembered
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2015-09-13T21:35:17Z abbe: hi
2015-09-13T21:35:47Z abbe: question about scoping in Common-Lisp.
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2015-09-13T21:36:26Z abbe: with CL-WHO, when I do this: (let ((cl-who:*attribute-quote-char* #\')) (who:with-html-output (*standard-output*)(:a :href "urn:cool")))
2015-09-13T21:37:02Z dim: |3b|: IIRC it's unclean if you want to stream the subprocess output rather than stash it in memory and begin processing only when the process is done
2015-09-13T21:37:18Z abbe: I get as output, because i'd previously did (setq cl-who:*attribute-quote-char* #\"): <a href="urn:cool"></a>
2015-09-13T21:37:21Z dim: unclean as in the API is strange and badly documented
2015-09-13T21:37:34Z abbe: where I'm expecting: <a href='urn:cool'></a>
2015-09-13T21:37:40Z dim: well, I don't dare say it's of UIOP quality :/
2015-09-13T21:38:05Z abbe: I'm running SBCL 1.2.15 (if that matters)
2015-09-13T21:38:46Z |3b|: dim: trying to run an editor, so waiting won't help much :p
2015-09-13T21:38:47Z dim: abbe: read about dynamic binding
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2015-09-13T21:39:16Z dim: your setq form isn't the one in effect in your code sample, the closest one is the once introduced in the let form
2015-09-13T21:39:52Z dim: |3b|: hehe, yeah, so then it's all function based API and your program must be written in a callback way IIRC
2015-09-13T21:40:17Z |3b|: dim: any examples? right now i'm passing functions, but only 1 gets called
2015-09-13T21:40:40Z abbe: dim: but the closest one is #\'
2015-09-13T21:40:43Z dim: I wanted to use that in pgloader to have a unix pipe like behavior when reading from stdin or from a sub-program output, but I can't see how to integrate that function call into the rest of the program easily
2015-09-13T21:41:01Z dim: |3b|: I didn't reach the point where I would try and write code
2015-09-13T21:41:03Z |3b|: but i have loops rather than callbacks, so presumably not the right thing
2015-09-13T21:41:21Z dim: abbe: ah, true, then back to reading the cl-who docs I guess
2015-09-13T21:41:39Z dim: |3b|: it's trivial to do with SBCL provided API
2015-09-13T21:41:59Z dim: so if you don't care much about portability...
2015-09-13T21:42:04Z |3b| was hoping to keep it portable, but this may end up being silly enough to not matter
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2015-09-13T21:42:25Z abbe: i always thought special variables are for dynamic scoping
2015-09-13T21:42:31Z dim: for pglaoder I care about sbcl and ccl as of now, soon ecl too; so the easiest way looks like doing the portability layer myself
2015-09-13T21:42:35Z abbe: e.g. as in http://n-a-n-o.com/lisp/cmucl-tutorials/LISP-tutorial-12.html
2015-09-13T21:42:55Z |3b| may end up connecting to emacs over ssh, then running slime on that emacs connecting to swank on local sbcl
2015-09-13T21:43:18Z abbe: and I wrote a program here to verify this, and that also works as expected
2015-09-13T21:43:31Z abbe: https://pastebin.com/ibmiEn1q
2015-09-13T21:43:41Z abbe: maybe i should read the sources
2015-09-13T21:43:43Z dim: abbe: maybe you made a typo somewhere?
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2015-09-13T21:44:27Z dim: anyway, gn!
2015-09-13T21:44:31Z abbe: i thought that too, but I copy pasted name from the documentation
2015-09-13T21:44:32Z abbe: good night!
2015-09-13T21:44:56Z abbe: and if I 'setq' then change takes place
2015-09-13T21:45:04Z abbe: but if I use it in 'let' then it doesn't
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2015-09-13T21:46:23Z abbe: i wonder if this lexical scoping doesn't work for names outside current package?
2015-09-13T21:46:43Z |3b|: package doesn't matter
2015-09-13T21:46:53Z |3b|: (assuming you use the correct one)
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2015-09-13T21:51:08Z |3b|: abbe: i'd guess cl-who looks at the value when it expands the macro, which happens before the LET is evaluated
2015-09-13T21:52:42Z |3b|: try macroexpanding the who:with-html-output form (with C-c C-m in slime, or with MACROEXPAND at repl) and see if it is already translated
2015-09-13T21:56:51Z abbe: yes, it looks already expanded, https://pastebin.com/u0g4ZP5i
2015-09-13T21:57:31Z abbe: pretty interesting
2015-09-13T21:57:59Z abbe: thanks dim and |3b|
2015-09-13T21:59:17Z abbe: so it happens in macro-expansion phase, before execution can even begin, i.e. how it never sees the change made by let
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2015-09-13T23:06:11Z Balzrael: hi there, where is lisp used nowadays?
2015-09-13T23:07:01Z kristof: There's someone using it for very big, very fast big data
2015-09-13T23:07:12Z remi`bd: well, I use it from France
2015-09-13T23:07:49Z Balzrael: so for big data, that's cool
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2015-09-13T23:07:57Z Balzrael: any other fields?
2015-09-13T23:10:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a bunch of interesting projects for web development.
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2015-09-13T23:10:26Z Oladon: There's a fairly major company using it for biometric security
2015-09-13T23:10:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html
2015-09-13T23:11:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Grammarly uses it for its grammar checking software
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2015-09-13T23:14:37Z Balzrael: that's really cool
2015-09-13T23:15:00Z Balzrael: on the job hunting part, is there a big need for lisp programmers?
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2015-09-13T23:19:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure
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2015-09-13T23:20:37Z kristof: No.
2015-09-13T23:21:03Z kristof: Balzrael: You would have an easier time using Lisp if you're allowed to use whatever technology you want
2015-09-13T23:21:21Z kristof: There is a growing need for Clojure programmers, such as at Netflix, but that's not Common Lisp
2015-09-13T23:22:53Z Balzrael: is Clojure a form of lisp. How far does it stray from lisp?
2015-09-13T23:23:11Z aeth: Balzrael: Common Lisp has never been easier to use with Quicklisp, etc., but there's a lag time. It will probably take a few years until people start using it widely.
2015-09-13T23:23:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's like a blend of lisp and haskell
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2015-09-13T23:24:14Z aeth: Balzrael: Clojure is designed for the JVM so it has certain limitations that you won't get with e.g. Scheme and Common Lisp (besides the ones on the JVM obviously). Also it seems to like to be a lot more concise than traditional Lisps, more like a functional language.
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2015-09-13T23:24:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Balzrael: it has Lisp's syntax but it strongly favors immutable data structures/
2015-09-13T23:24:28Z Balzrael: I am just asking because I saw somewhere that lisp is super fast, it has been around for quite some time and I am amazed that people aren't using it more frequently
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2015-09-13T23:24:49Z aeth: (concise in the names, I mean. traditional-lisp-names-are-long)
2015-09-13T23:24:54Z plertrood: How is Clojure like a blend of Lisp and Haskell?
2015-09-13T23:25:19Z plertrood: Lisp -> Dynamic typed.. Haskel -> Very strongly typed
2015-09-13T23:25:21Z aeth: plertrood: afaik, Lisp, Scheme, and Haskell. It has a lot of Schemier stuff in it
2015-09-13T23:25:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: plertrood: it favors immutable types
2015-09-13T23:25:52Z aeth: plertrood: I use setf all the time in Common Lisp.
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2015-09-13T23:26:06Z Balzrael: my experience with functional programming isn't that great and I am looking around and lisp looks quite good
2015-09-13T23:26:19Z aeth: The whole hating destructive operations thing is more of a Scheme thing than a Lisp in general thing afaik.
2015-09-13T23:26:26Z plertrood: Clojure favours it.. but has things like atoms etc that make mutability fairly easy.
2015-09-13T23:26:55Z plertrood: Haskel enforces it.. you have no choice but to go through the whole monad dance..
2015-09-13T23:26:57Z kristof: Balzrael: Hey, what really grinds my gears is that Lisp didn't win over the web. People use the JVM and other junk and Lisp has had everything Javascript ever wanted, but does it saner, safer, and faster.
2015-09-13T23:27:17Z kristof: Dynamic typing when you need it, static type hints when you want it fast.
2015-09-13T23:27:28Z aeth: Balzrael: What I personally like to do is iteratively construct functions in optimized Common Lisp, and then compose them at a high level in a functional style with e.g. lots of map, reduce, etc.
2015-09-13T23:27:36Z Balzrael: kristof: I knida got that from a lot of places and it seems to be a shame
2015-09-13T23:27:54Z kristof: Balzrael: Yeah. Macros, too. Clojure is very good, for what it's worth.
2015-09-13T23:28:00Z Balzrael: especially after hearing that Lisp has c-like speed. Is that true?
2015-09-13T23:28:06Z kristof: Balzrael: Depends.
2015-09-13T23:28:38Z aeth: Balzrael: If you (1) use SBCL, (2) use its optimizations, (3) declare types everywhere, (4) use lots of DO loops, etc.
2015-09-13T23:28:42Z aeth: On vectors, not lists.
2015-09-13T23:28:46Z kristof: Balzrael: Depends depends depends. My first answer is that it can have C like speed. My second answer is that if you need c like speed, you will know enough about programming and data representations that it will be obvious how to make common lisp approach c like speed.
2015-09-13T23:29:29Z Balzrael: cool, too bad it isn't used at a larger scale
2015-09-13T23:29:33Z aeth: Balzrael: You lose a lot of the advantages of coding in Lisp by trying to make it competitive with C, which is why I'm experimenting with a hybrid approach of composing highly optimized functions as if they're built in to the language.
2015-09-13T23:29:54Z kristof: Balzrael: Yeah. No use griping about it, though. The ecosystem is so good that you will like it for personal projects.
2015-09-13T23:29:55Z aeth: It's similar to what e.g. Python libraries do, except I get to use Lisp for it all, just very different Lisp
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2015-09-13T23:30:27Z Balzrael: but with multi core cpus, lisps functional approach should kick ass compared to C and oo langiages
2015-09-13T23:31:12Z aeth: Common Lisp is an extremely object oriented language, inspired by Smalltalk. It's not like e.g. C++
2015-09-13T23:31:28Z plertrood: + speed of development is way faster than C!
2015-09-13T23:31:39Z aeth: Whether or not you choose to define classes, etc., depends on what you're trying to do. I haven't defined one class in my Project Euler stuff but I use CLOS extensively in my game stuff.
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2015-09-13T23:31:58Z Xach: aeth: Smalltalk's model is quite different from CLOS.
2015-09-13T23:32:03Z Balzrael: what is a good book to wrap my head around functional programing
2015-09-13T23:32:23Z Balzrael: C kills you with all the typing
2015-09-13T23:32:23Z aeth: Some problems map very neatly to objects, some map very neatly to functional functions. Lisp can use them both, in the same language, in the same file.
2015-09-13T23:32:27Z Balzrael: ... and more tyoing
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2015-09-13T23:32:43Z aeth: Xach: Then I've been mislead in my reading.
2015-09-13T23:32:58Z aeth: *misled
2015-09-13T23:33:41Z Xach: aeth: If the reading says anything like "CL OO is like Smalltalk" I would say so.
2015-09-13T23:34:01Z Balzrael: any books you would recommend?
2015-09-13T23:34:15Z Xach is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529%40naggum.no.html re CLOS & smalltalk
2015-09-13T23:34:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: For learning Lisp, I really liked "practical common lisp"
2015-09-13T23:34:21Z aeth: Xach: The MOP, not just CLOS?
2015-09-13T23:34:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Balzrael: it doesn't really focus on functional programming, though
2015-09-13T23:34:58Z Balzrael: ok, thanks
2015-09-13T23:35:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: pcl
2015-09-13T23:35:09Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-09-13T23:35:12Z Xach: aeth: I don't see how the two can be distinguished. the MOP is an instance of CLOS style, metacircularly.
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2015-09-13T23:38:17Z aeth: In addition to PCL, there are some Scheme resources that are (mostly) applicable to Common Lisp, too. Just be warned that many implementations don't optimize tail calls like all Schemes do.
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2015-09-13T23:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: .
2015-09-13T23:58:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way I can make sbcl garbage collect more frequently?
2015-09-13T23:59:03Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: (sb-ext:gc)
2015-09-13T23:59:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean automatically
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2015-09-13T23:59:39Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: what criteria would you like to use to trigger a gc?
2015-09-13T23:59:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: For some reason, the way I'm using cl-markup causes sbcl's memory usage to climb indefinitely
2015-09-14T00:00:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: unless I run (gc :full t) every once in a while.
2015-09-14T00:00:18Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: does it run out of memory?
2015-09-14T00:00:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I let it
2015-09-14T00:00:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I.e. if I recompile one function too many times, sbcl eventually crashes
2015-09-14T00:01:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: not recompile, redefine
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2015-09-14T00:03:24Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: There are some parameters to control that: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Introspection-and-Tuning
2015-09-14T00:04:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: thanks
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2015-09-14T01:41:52Z aeth: fiveam, prove, or something else?
2015-09-14T01:43:09Z aeth: I finally am doing something where I absolutely need tests.
2015-09-14T01:44:34Z PuercoPop: aeth: I'd +1 prove
2015-09-14T01:44:48Z aeth: 1+, not +1 :-p
2015-09-14T01:44:57Z aeth: although depending on the context, possibly incf
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2015-09-14T02:50:23Z root____9: hellp
2015-09-14T02:50:30Z root____9: hello everyone
2015-09-14T02:51:18Z Bike: Yo.
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2015-09-14T02:54:48Z aeth: PuercoPop: hmm, thanks, prove seems to work
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2015-09-14T04:18:10Z drmeister: I implemented a telemetry system for my garbage collector - I can see the MPS library allocating a block and then allocating another block right on top of it.  It's reproducible now.
2015-09-14T04:18:50Z drmeister: I'm certain that the first block is accessible via a root but there are not pointer fixes for that root between the two allocations - this is all very, very fishy and wrong.
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2015-09-14T04:24:17Z drmeister: I can track every block through it's life-time now - although I don't now when things get collected.  I guess it's just when their memory get's reused.
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2015-09-14T06:39:08Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-14T07:16:11Z jackdaniel: I wonder how much would it pay off to memoize calculations in 3d rendering (obviously if everything is functional w/o side effects)
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2015-09-14T07:17:48Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, do a trial run and accumulate the time spent in these function.
2015-09-14T07:18:00Z jackdaniel: I have no actuall code :D
2015-09-14T07:18:35Z jackdaniel: but yeah, I plan to write it that way and benchmark
2015-09-14T07:18:43Z jackdaniel: maybe a nice blogpost will emerge from it
2015-09-14T07:19:30Z jackdaniel: and I'll just measure FPS of overall application, not time in functions
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2015-09-14T07:21:31Z flip214: jackdaniel: don't forget to look at user + system + real time
2015-09-14T07:21:40Z flip214: and/or *don't* do vsync
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2015-09-14T07:22:35Z jackdaniel: first thing I want to check is that if I'll be able to run opengl on plug w/o gfx (software rendering) with ecl :D
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2015-09-14T07:55:05Z jackdaniel: hah, invalid value of frustrum on gears demo
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2015-09-14T08:33:34Z z0d: is it possible to compile from CL to asm.js? by using LLVM for example
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2015-09-14T08:34:35Z jackdaniel: you may try to compile CL->C and with emacscripten compile the C sources
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2015-09-14T08:38:43Z z0d: ok, thanks. I'll look into it
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2015-09-14T08:44:47Z flip214: z0d: https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/
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2015-09-14T10:21:07Z mobius-eng: Hi all, does anybody use QTOOLS? Is there a way to use a third-party widget (defined in C++) with QTOOLS? I do have *.H/*.CPP files for the widget
2015-09-14T10:21:45Z jackdaniel: eql supports such option for sure (dunno about qtools)
2015-09-14T10:21:52Z jackdaniel: ask Shinmera , he'll know best
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2015-09-14T10:22:50Z mobius-eng: Does Shinmera come here? What is the best way to contact him?
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2015-09-14T10:23:42Z jackdaniel: he's usually around (wait some time for him) - he's nick is present on this channel, he should see your question
2015-09-14T10:24:06Z mobius-eng: OK, thanks!
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2015-09-14T10:24:28Z mobius-eng: eql is interesting but not what I am looking for...
2015-09-14T10:24:30Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: ↑
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2015-09-14T11:09:58Z Shinmera: mobius-eng: You'll have to look into ab/using smoke for that.
2015-09-14T11:10:16Z Shinmera: mobius-eng: Or in other words, it's not an area Qtools is concerned with, so I can't tell you.
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2015-09-14T11:16:25Z mobius-eng: Shinmera: thanks! I thought I might need to look at SMOKE for that
2015-09-14T11:17:36Z Shinmera: mobius-eng: It's an area I have pretty much zero knowledge about, so I don't know how much work it would take to get it done. Once you have a loadable smoke module things should work "straight away" with CommonQt though. Q+ will need some additional configuration, but it shouldn't take much either.
2015-09-14T11:19:00Z Shinmera: I did modify an existing Smoke module to include a previously excluded class before and that worked fine. No idea how to make a new one though.
2015-09-14T11:19:43Z mobius-eng: Since I can get source files, might it be easier to translate them into CL?
2015-09-14T11:20:21Z Shinmera: Depends on how complex it is.
2015-09-14T11:20:52Z mobius-eng: OK, will look into it. Thanks!
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2015-09-14T11:32:15Z Shinmera: You can however look forward to when Clasp is matured, which should allow you to do all that stuff from within CL easily.
2015-09-14T11:32:34Z Shinmera: For now we're stuck with Smoke :/
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2015-09-14T11:40:10Z Guthur: does it pose any problem that clasp is LGPL rather than LLGPL?
2015-09-14T11:41:01Z eudoxia: i doubt it
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2015-09-14T11:51:09Z jackdaniel: |3b|: any ideas why glFrustum invoked from cl-opengl  complains about invalid value on ARM when using softpipe from mesa? (it works fine on my x86-64)
2015-09-14T11:52:18Z jackdaniel: if traced values on the CL side and values seem correct (that is far and near are positive, and none of left/right top/bottom near/far is equal)
2015-09-14T11:52:23Z jackdaniel: s/if/I've/
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2015-09-14T11:56:03Z |3b|: jackdaniel: hmm, are any other pairs of values = ? might try modifying them a bit and see if it goes away
2015-09-14T11:56:30Z jackdaniel: basically I'm trying gears example
2015-09-14T11:56:44Z |3b|: which lisp?
2015-09-14T11:56:51Z jackdaniel: ECL
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2015-09-14T11:57:29Z jackdaniel: gears from mesa-demos works when gallium driver is forced to softpipe (it's ARM platform)
2015-09-14T11:57:48Z jackdaniel: I havent updated dists from quicklisp for a while though (pending now), maybe that will help
2015-09-14T11:58:04Z |3b|: also, regarding memoization, hard to say in general, but graphics things frequently try to take advantage of "spatial coherence" or "temporal coherence", which are sort of a similar concept, but a bit fuzzier than pure memoization
2015-09-14T11:59:24Z |3b|: gears.lisp from cl-opengl?
2015-09-14T11:59:45Z jackdaniel: yeah, cl-glut-examples, and then (cl-glut-examples:gears)
2015-09-14T11:59:55Z jackdaniel: I've just updated quicklisp libraries and whole thing is rebuilding
2015-09-14T12:00:04Z jackdaniel: it'll take a while, since this plug i 600MHz
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2015-09-14T12:00:08Z jackdaniel: s/i/is/
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2015-09-14T12:01:04Z jackdaniel: also I've got plenty of invalid enums when running gl-info (it's all absent on x86)
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2015-09-14T12:01:13Z |3b|: if it still breaks, try coercing all the arguments to 'double-float
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2015-09-14T12:01:28Z jackdaniel: already did
2015-09-14T12:01:37Z jackdaniel: but will try after recombiling and if it fails
2015-09-14T12:01:44Z jackdaniel: s/combiling/compiling/
2015-09-14T12:01:51Z |3b|: yeah, i think invalid enums is expected there, it doesn't check to see if they are valid before querying and most depend on gl version and/or extensions
2015-09-14T12:02:05Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-09-14T12:04:40Z jackdaniel: if update / coercions won't help then I'll probably have to rebuild mesa with debug flags and grock the calling, it might be a bug in a) ECL dffi, b) libffi or c) cffi
2015-09-14T12:05:19Z |3b| was going to suggest writing your own c function with same signature and make sure the values looked right from there
2015-09-14T12:05:53Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's way better than my "hack-whole-day-to-do-the-same-thing" approach :p
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2015-09-14T12:25:14Z crazyfrog: hello. does anybody know command line client (possibly written in C) to Swank?
2015-09-14T12:26:20Z Shinmera: Given that the swank protocol is undocumented and prone to change on a whim when slime does: no.
2015-09-14T12:26:24Z eudoxia: crazyfrog: no, but consider https://github.com/eudoxia0/swank-protocol or https://github.com/eudoxia0/lime
2015-09-14T12:27:29Z jackdaniel: given ECL may compile to C, you can write such client in CL and keep sources
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2015-09-14T12:28:21Z crazyfrog: thanks guys. I want to use it in *Compilation* buffer in Emacs to send the S-expressions to the active Lisp-image with Swank.
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2015-09-14T12:28:40Z crazyfrog: so, the CL implementations of Swant client does not fit my needs.
2015-09-14T12:28:45Z Shinmera: If you're already using emacs, why can't you just use slime?
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2015-09-14T12:30:58Z crazyfrog: Shinmera: I want to use SBCL for scripting instread of Bash. The Emacs has excellent compile command which requeires executable. I need to get the output from evaluated defun into the *Compilation* buffer.
2015-09-14T12:32:45Z crazyfrog: It is possible to run SBCL with --script, but it would be nice to send S-exprs from command line client from M-x compile to running Swank server :-)
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2015-09-14T12:33:25Z pjb: crazyfrog: once upon a time, somebody wrote a linux VFS to access a CL process; IIRC this allowed to evaluate easily forms from the CLI.
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2015-09-14T12:34:16Z pjb: crazyfrog: You can write an emacs script to do that, using slime.
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2015-09-14T12:35:26Z crazyfrog: pjb: but what if I need to call SBCL from C++ application? So the Swant client in C/C++ would be nice.
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2015-09-14T12:36:08Z crazyfrog: jackdaniel: interesting
2015-09-14T12:36:13Z pjb: One thing that would be very nice, is to have slime rewritten in Common Lisp.  It should be integrated in the main slime/swank distribution and maintained.
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2015-09-14T12:36:25Z pjb: Then you could use it in ecl to embed it into any program.
2015-09-14T12:37:05Z crazyfrog: pjb: well, it's you POV :-) Mine is little different.
2015-09-14T12:37:08Z pjb: One alternative would be to write a slime-emacs-lisp package that would allow you to load slime.el into CL and have it run as intended.
2015-09-14T12:37:11Z jackdaniel: I think lfarm uses swank to communicate between different lisp processes (?)
2015-09-14T12:37:58Z crazyfrog: pjb: could you tell me please, how to run S-exprs on the CL side from Emacs (not from SLIME REPL, of course) ?
2015-09-14T12:38:28Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414
2015-09-14T12:38:34Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/slime-rpc.el
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2015-09-14T12:41:12Z crazyfrog: pjb: thanks!
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2015-09-14T12:50:55Z crazyfrog: jackdaniel: is ECL compiled starts faster than saved-and-died SCBL?
2015-09-14T12:51:34Z Urchin: crazyfrog, for c
2015-09-14T12:51:48Z Urchin: C++ integration, there's a new compiler
2015-09-14T12:52:21Z Urchin: clasp
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2015-09-14T12:55:33Z crazyfrog: Urchin: yes, I know about Clasp. I'm asking about the startup time. What is /starts/ faster ECL or SBCL?
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2015-09-14T12:55:55Z Urchin: crazyfrog, test and see
2015-09-14T12:56:13Z crazyfrog: Urchin: :-)
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2015-09-14T12:58:53Z jackdaniel: oh, he left ^_^ "it depends" would be the most appropriate answer
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2015-09-14T13:01:53Z jackdaniel: Urchin: and I'm afraid that you're wrong, CLASP compiles to llvm, not C/C++ (unless I'm terribly wrong)
2015-09-14T13:03:05Z Shinmera: It can seamlessly interoperate with C++ though.
2015-09-14T13:03:39Z jackdaniel: yeah, but I've mentioned Lisp->C compilation (in context of crazyfrog's question)
2015-09-14T13:03:50Z Shinmera: And he said "C++ integration".
2015-09-14T13:06:13Z jackdaniel: yeah, you're right, C++ integration with SBCL, hence swank C/C++ swank pursuit
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2015-09-14T13:26:33Z kami: Good afternoon.
2015-09-14T13:26:58Z warweasle: kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-14T13:32:21Z jackdaniel: |3b|: I've tried on local myfrustum and doubles seem to be passed fine when using #'foreign-funcall (correct order / correct values)
2015-09-14T13:32:41Z jackdaniel: but mesa still complains
2015-09-14T13:32:41Z jackdaniel: hmm
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2015-09-14T13:47:16Z Guthur: I am reading through AMOP and I see that access to slots tends to be through slot-location which returns an index into a array of slots, is this just for performance reasons or something more subtle that i am missing; I'm just wondering that if I made it a hash lookup whether it would break something I am not aware of.
2015-09-14T13:48:14Z eudoxia: i think it's just because having a list of slot values is simple
2015-09-14T13:50:07Z Guthur: eudoxia: i suspecting as much, but just though i would throw it out there before i start down a path I might later regret
2015-09-14T13:50:23Z eudoxia: i mean, they do mention it's horribly slow to do it that way
2015-09-14T13:50:43Z eudoxia: then again, i guess for small classes, a list is faster than a table
2015-09-14T13:50:48Z eudoxia: maybe a vector is better
2015-09-14T13:50:56Z eudoxia: yeah, no resizing
2015-09-14T13:50:57Z Guthur: in AMOP it uses an array
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2015-09-14T13:51:47Z Guthur: unless it's a list earlier in the book, the closette implementation does change throughout the book
2015-09-14T13:51:50Z Guthur: one moment
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2015-09-14T13:52:31Z eudoxia: oh i only read the first part
2015-09-14T13:56:35Z Guthur: ok, i think i could safely use a hashmap
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2015-09-14T13:59:17Z jackdaniel: |3b|: found a culpirt - calling did work fine, when done from *interpreter*, compiled foreign-funcall does it wrong for ARM (so either cffi itself, or ecl backend)
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2015-09-14T14:15:10Z splittist: Guthur: have you looked at beach's paper metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf ?
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2015-09-14T14:20:27Z DeadTrickster: Anyone encountered the following problem with latest? quicklisp - ql:quickload backups system-index.txt to system-index.txt.bak, creates empty system-index.txt and start to rebuild that index. If local-projects folder has subfolder with symlinks QL enters infinite loop. Or maybe these are consequences of latest sbcl update
2015-09-14T14:20:53Z Guthur: splittist: i had not, cheers for the reference
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2015-09-14T14:21:51Z Guthur: tbh performance is not a great concern for me right now
2015-09-14T14:22:18Z Guthur: the goal is to produce a simple implementation for a demonstration purposes
2015-09-14T14:22:20Z DeadTrickster: it constantly looping map-directory->sb-impl::call-with-native-directory-iterator->(flet sb-impl::iterator :in map-directory]
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2015-09-14T14:38:58Z XachX: DeadTrickster: Is it possible there is a symlink loop somewhere?
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2015-09-14T14:39:21Z XachX: DeadTrickster: do you get any results from (directory "~/quicklisp/local-projects/**/*.asd")?
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2015-09-14T14:40:27Z DeadTrickster: XachX, no, I also looked at recent sbcl commits - they mangled? this iterations stuff
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2015-09-14T14:41:25Z DeadTrickster: XachX, here is what I have <project-name>/<erlang project> relx (erlang release tool) generated release with a lot of symlinks and now it chokes here
2015-09-14T14:41:53Z DeadTrickster: under <project-name> I also have my related lisp stuff
2015-09-14T14:41:54Z XachX: DeadTrickster: when you write "no", do you mean that the result is NIL, or the result is another hang?
2015-09-14T14:42:02Z DeadTrickster: hangs
2015-09-14T14:42:17Z XachX: DeadTrickster: ok. the problem seems to be below the level of quicklisp, then.
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2015-09-14T14:42:31Z XachX: quicklisp uses a directory call like that to get its info
2015-09-14T14:42:48Z DeadTrickster: yeah, but why it ignores my system-index.txt and always tries to rebuild it?
2015-09-14T14:43:17Z DeadTrickster: it renames file to *.bak and starts rebuilding
2015-09-14T14:43:26Z Xof: clock slew?
2015-09-14T14:43:59Z DeadTrickster: I tried touch
2015-09-14T14:44:34Z DeadTrickster: also tried manually copying to the new system-index.txt
2015-09-14T14:44:35Z XachX: DeadTrickster: if system-index.txt is newer than ~/quicklisp/local-projects it should not try to rebuild. You can check the file-write-date of each to see.
2015-09-14T14:44:35Z jackdaniel: XachX: will next QL release catch-up to current cffi?
2015-09-14T14:44:45Z XachX: jackdaniel: It always uses the latest release of cffi
2015-09-14T14:44:58Z XachX: Let me check to see what the report says
2015-09-14T14:45:27Z XachX: jackdaniel: yes, it will use 0.16.1
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2015-09-14T14:46:13Z jackdaniel: right, thanks. It suprised me that it still has 0.15.0 though, which it was probably released too late
2015-09-14T14:46:22Z jackdaniel: s/which/but/
2015-09-14T14:46:53Z XachX: This is a long release cycle, too. I am dealing with a bit of chaos this month.
2015-09-14T14:47:07Z XachX: I wanted to have a new version last week, but alas, too much chaos
2015-09-14T14:47:26Z jackdaniel: I understand, thanks for hard work on all of this
2015-09-14T14:47:30Z DeadTrickster: so apparently this is a bug of sbcl it started when I updated yesterday to 1.1.15
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2015-09-14T14:50:02Z DeadTrickster: hmm
2015-09-14T14:50:44Z jackdaniel: |3b|: I've fixed this very problem in cffi, just used version before a fix
2015-09-14T14:50:53Z DeadTrickster: actually I updated sbcl on another machines
2015-09-14T14:50:56Z DeadTrickster: ((
2015-09-14T14:54:26Z DeadTrickster: maybe I rearranged my project folders but the problem is circular symlinks
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2015-09-14T15:55:58Z DeadTrickster: does ita software still use cl? do they have open source page?
2015-09-14T15:57:31Z loke````: DeadTrickster: They have been owned by Google for quite some time.
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2015-09-14T15:57:38Z foom: DeadTrickster: a) yes, b) at least here: https://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/ probably some somewhere else too.
2015-09-14T15:57:40Z loke````: So I presume it'd be the Google open source page.
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2015-09-14T16:00:58Z DeadTrickster: what famous companies use cl now? do they practice open source projects sponsorship? I would like to hear story similar to say Rails.
2015-09-14T16:01:38Z DeadTrickster: or maybe not so famous but not franz, lispworks, etc. just an average Joe
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2015-09-14T16:03:12Z katco: DeadTrickster: maybe this is what you're looking for? https://github.com/trending?l=common-lisp
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2015-09-14T16:05:15Z DeadTrickster: katco, I review trending repos regular I'm asking about sponsorship and commercial usage. For example do you know cool web shop that uses CL instead of RoR or Node?
2015-09-14T16:05:42Z DeadTrickster: or maybe not web shop but something closer to ita
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2015-09-14T16:06:49Z katco: DeadTrickster: sorry, not up on that space.
2015-09-14T16:09:25Z DeadTrickster: then who buys expensive LispWorks shit?
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2015-09-14T16:10:49Z foom: Presumably enough people to keep them in business.
2015-09-14T16:11:02Z oGMo: presumably not people doing simple web apps
2015-09-14T16:11:47Z DeadTrickster: people doing not so simple web apps?
2015-09-14T16:12:11Z foom: amazingly enough, not everyone is writing webapps. :)
2015-09-14T16:12:50Z Vityok: Grammarly also uses Lisp, and it is kind of a "web shop"
2015-09-14T16:13:05Z loke````: DeadTrickster: The more important question is who buys Allegro CL... It costs rougly 10 times as much as LW.
2015-09-14T16:15:01Z DeadTrickster: foom, web apps are just example
2015-09-14T16:15:15Z DeadTrickster: Vityok, yep thanks do they have OSS projects?
2015-09-14T16:16:46Z DeadTrickster: loke````, I bet they NDAed everything
2015-09-14T16:17:00Z katco: i know https://github.com/fukamachi does lots with web. works for a web company i think
2015-09-14T16:17:53Z loke````: Once we finally (very close now) release the source to our group chat system, there will be another web application in CL :-)
2015-09-14T16:18:11Z loke````: I have a test build up here: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
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2015-09-14T16:34:36Z Ober: so I removed a required paren in a lisp file. slime-eval-buffer yields the usual error. is it possible in slime to jump to the actual line of the error in the offending buffer from the exception window? https://gist.github.com/bfcbebc7e3ec2cd8e096
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2015-09-14T16:41:41Z dwrngr: i can see pinpointing a line that has an extra parenthesis but idk about pinpointing the line that doesnt have one ;p
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2015-09-14T16:42:37Z dlowe: if we could do that, we wouldn't need closing parentheses
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2015-09-14T16:43:28Z djh: You could run the auto-indenter and see what gets moved? :)
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2015-09-14T16:47:33Z DeadTrickster: loke````, this is commercial project?
2015-09-14T16:48:14Z loke````: DeadTrickster: No. BSD license
2015-09-14T16:48:49Z loke````: The only reason the source is not released yet is because we haven't cleaned out all the hardcoded crap yet :-)
2015-09-14T16:49:12Z loke````: Also, we need an automatic way of deploying.
2015-09-14T16:50:19Z loke````: DeadTrickster: Did you try it?
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2015-09-14T16:56:10Z DeadTrickster: haven't received email yet
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2015-09-14T16:56:23Z DeadTrickster: loke````, with key
2015-09-14T16:56:38Z loke````: Interesting
2015-09-14T16:56:56Z loke````: it should be immediate
2015-09-14T16:57:00Z DeadTrickster: dead.trickster at gmail
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2015-09-14T16:58:23Z DeadTrickster: loke````, yep still nothing
2015-09-14T16:58:26Z DeadTrickster: (
2015-09-14T16:59:33Z loke````: DeadTrickster: What about now? You getting anything?
2015-09-14T16:59:44Z DeadTrickster: should I reenter email?
2015-09-14T16:59:55Z loke````: No. It should be sent now
2015-09-14T17:00:19Z DeadTrickster: nothing, not in smap too
2015-09-14T17:00:22Z DeadTrickster: spam
2015-09-14T17:00:24Z loke````: Hmm
2015-09-14T17:00:49Z DeadTrickster: what mta you are using?
2015-09-14T17:01:18Z loke````: DeadTrickster: mandrill
2015-09-14T17:01:35Z loke````: As far as I can tell, it goes to mandrill
2015-09-14T17:01:50Z loke````: I don't have the admin password for the matrill admin, so I can check the results now
2015-09-14T17:02:06Z DeadTrickster: that is sad
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2015-09-14T17:02:39Z DeadTrickster: loke````, could tell me more about the project? is it hobby our you have commercializing plans?
2015-09-14T17:02:43Z loke````: DeadTrickster: I will analyse tomorrow.
2015-09-14T17:03:11Z DeadTrickster: I just received two codes yay
2015-09-14T17:03:40Z loke````: DeadTrickster: Weird. It shouldn't be slow
2015-09-14T17:04:12Z loke````: I blame mandril
2015-09-14T17:04:17Z DeadTrickster: me too
2015-09-14T17:04:33Z DeadTrickster: maybe one of their workers was on sleep
2015-09-14T17:04:35Z loke````: Now that I think about it, i've seen miandrill delaying emails to gmail before
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2015-09-14T19:23:25Z axion is still having a hard time with uiop
2015-09-14T19:24:23Z axion: i thought it would be a suitable replacement for cl-fad, etc...but some things just seem lacking
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2015-09-14T19:39:33Z whiteline: so i'm trying to write a really tight quad-tree implementation here
2015-09-14T19:40:11Z whiteline: http://pastebin.com/ecBrdtUX is this a good way to traverse it? it does result in a single chunk of machine code when SBCL compiles it but i have no experience writing high-performance lisp
2015-09-14T19:46:00Z rme: Just some surface observations: First of all, whatever works.  But you might want to avoid writing stuff like caaar.  Think about using some kind of better name.  Also, (list nil nil nil) looks a bit nicer than the nested cons forms.
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2015-09-14T19:46:53Z |3b| wouldn't ever DECLAIM (safety 0)
2015-09-14T19:47:09Z |3b| doesn't even usually use (safety 0) locally
2015-09-14T19:47:19Z |3b|: (on sbcl at least)
2015-09-14T19:47:25Z whiteline: why, exactly
2015-09-14T19:47:40Z whiteline: i do understand that it results in code that's actually unsafe
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2015-09-14T19:47:43Z |3b|: you usually can get the same benefit other ways, and code always has bugs
2015-09-14T19:48:42Z |3b|: usually don't need THE on sbcl either
2015-09-14T19:48:57Z whiteline: it did on here because the label functions aren't ftyped
2015-09-14T19:49:18Z whiteline: i don't know why i needed it on the array references though
2015-09-14T19:49:30Z |3b|: if you told it POW2 is a fixnum specialized array, it knows everything returned by (aref pow2 *) is a fixnum
2015-09-14T19:49:37Z whiteline: yeah exactly
2015-09-14T19:49:44Z whiteline: but apparently not
2015-09-14T19:49:47Z |3b| would probably use (unsigned-byte 32) or 64 rather than fixnum as well
2015-09-14T19:51:03Z whiteline: i tried using unsigned bytes
2015-09-14T19:51:03Z |3b|: and rather than passing pow2 to the recursive function, bind it in a LET around the LABELS so you can declare it once (and it could check it once with safety > 0)
2015-09-14T19:51:31Z |3b|: similarly for DEFAULT if you never change it
2015-09-14T19:51:35Z whiteline: |3b|: is this more efficient?
2015-09-14T19:51:46Z whiteline: this code is like only written for efficiency
2015-09-14T19:52:10Z |3b|: unsigned-byte? not sure it would make much difference, but you would get predictable size
2015-09-14T19:52:33Z |3b|: if you don't need 62 bits, u-b 32 saves space (possibly using cache better or whatever as well)
2015-09-14T19:53:07Z |3b|: and if you do, might as well get the extra 1-3 bits of using u-b 64 since it wont be slower on properly declared code
2015-09-14T19:53:43Z |3b|: i guess signed-byte 32/64 if you have negative numbers
2015-09-14T19:53:50Z |3b|: but same reasoning
2015-09-14T19:55:42Z |3b|: actually, i'd probably get rid of pow2 completely and declare DEPTH to be (integer 0 63), and use ASH instead of looking it up in array
2015-09-14T19:57:12Z whiteline: that's an idea
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2015-09-14T20:02:31Z |3b| also wonders if you could rearrange it like (when (>= x 0) (decf x 2^depth) (pop tree)) (when (>= y 0) (decf y 2^depth) (pop tree)) (if (plusp depth) (inner ...) (tree)) instead of the nested conditionals
2015-09-14T20:02:49Z |3b|: not sure if it would affect performance or not
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2015-09-14T20:03:49Z |3b|: or maybe (when (< depth 0) (return-from inner tree)) (inner x y ...)) so it is a tail call
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2015-09-14T20:12:27Z whiteline: well i wrote it functionally because it was easier to reason about
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2015-09-14T20:12:58Z whiteline: are there in general any performance considerations between functional code and imperative?
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2015-09-14T20:17:12Z whiteline: you'd have to do it like (when (>= x 0) ... (pop tree)) and (when (>= y 0) (progn (pop tree) (pop tree))) though so it's like a bitmask
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2015-09-14T20:22:58Z |3b|: is guess it isn't "pop" either, since it is all CARs
2015-09-14T20:23:03Z |3b|: *i guess
2015-09-14T20:23:18Z whiteline: yeah that too
2015-09-14T20:23:43Z whiteline: i just did that to save space
2015-09-14T20:24:09Z |3b|: ?
2015-09-14T20:24:53Z whiteline: but i guess i shouldn't be thinking of the tree in terms of individual cons cells? or should i?
2015-09-14T20:25:10Z |3b|: not enough context to tell
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2015-09-14T20:26:12Z whiteline: if i specify a (cons 1 2) vs a (list 1 2) that's always going to be one extra cons cell of memory in the list right? assuming it's actually stored in memory and not optimized away by the compiler.
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2015-09-14T20:26:30Z |3b|: also, it seems a bit odd to recurse DEPTH times without looking at the contents of the tree
2015-09-14T20:27:23Z |3b|: yeah, but at that point a 4 element vector might be smaller and easier to access
2015-09-14T20:28:06Z |3b|: if your tree is always completely populated, better to use an implicit tree in a vector or something, otherwise you should stop checking when you hit a leaf
2015-09-14T20:28:21Z whiteline: i guess. i just assumed traversing a cons tree was easier for the compiler to reason about
2015-09-14T20:28:38Z whiteline: it won't be completely populated but yeah i missed that check
2015-09-14T20:28:41Z Shinmera: I finally got Flare to work the way it was intended! Wooop woop! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ScT0JyW-Fs
2015-09-14T20:29:14Z whiteline: also i think there's an off-by-one error in there
2015-09-14T20:29:44Z pegu`: Are there any examples of using fare-quasiquote with optima match? Seems like whatever I do I end up with "undefined function: QUASIQUOTEP"
2015-09-14T20:31:08Z jasom: pegu`: do you have fare-quasiquote-optima loaded?
2015-09-14T20:31:09Z PuercoPop: I can't use let to temporarily rebind a special variable?
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2015-09-14T20:32:23Z whiteline: Shinmera: that's very impressive
2015-09-14T20:32:32Z Shinmera: Thank you.
2015-09-14T20:32:36Z whiteline: what are you using as a backend?
2015-09-14T20:32:41Z Shinmera: For what?
2015-09-14T20:32:53Z jasom: PuercoPop: sure you can
2015-09-14T20:32:57Z whiteline: pixel drawing
2015-09-14T20:33:07Z whiteline: SDL?
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2015-09-14T20:33:28Z Shinmera: whiteline: Ah, Qt with OpenGL.
2015-09-14T20:33:33Z whiteline: ah
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2015-09-14T20:34:46Z Shinmera: The viewer is some 80 lines of code
2015-09-14T20:35:43Z jasom: pegu`: you'll also need to do (fare-quasiquote:enable-quasiquote) before reading any forms with quasiquote in them
2015-09-14T20:36:07Z rme: Shinmera: nice
2015-09-14T20:36:11Z Shinmera: whiteline: https://github.com/Shinmera/flare/blob/master/viewer/viewer.lisp
2015-09-14T20:36:46Z Shinmera: I'll see if I can get some pretty bullet hell patterns going for a better demo soon.
2015-09-14T20:37:24Z jasom: pegu`: (ql:quickload :fare-quasiquote-optima) (fare-quasiquote:enable-quasiquote) (optima:match '(1 2 3) (`(1 ,@x) x))  ;; paste this at the repl, should work
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2015-09-14T20:40:22Z pegu`: jasom: thanks! I was missing the (fare-quasiquote:enable-quasiquote), what is the suggested method to restore the readtable after that, is there a corresponding disable-quasiquote?
2015-09-14T20:40:38Z jasom: pegu`: there are several ways to do this
2015-09-14T20:41:21Z jasom: pegu`: just set the readtable at the top of the file, and compile-file will do it for you
2015-09-14T20:41:31Z jasom: well set it in an eval-when (:compile-toplevel) block
2015-09-14T20:42:07Z jasom: er :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel
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2015-09-14T20:42:37Z pegu`: jasom: thanks, I'll do that
2015-09-14T20:42:47Z axion: what is a general rule of whether a function should be declared inline or not?
2015-09-14T20:42:49Z jasom: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*)))
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2015-09-14T20:43:00Z jasom: axion: is complicated
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2015-09-14T20:43:41Z jasom: axion: the implementation-independent answer is "declare it inline if it won't ever be redefined", declare it not-inline if it will ever be redefined without recompiling the whole file.
2015-09-14T20:44:15Z axion: jasom: hmm, i'm developing a high performance game math library, and some functions do really good inlined, and others are hard to measure. i'm not too knowledgeable on compilers to know exactly when would be a good time to inline
2015-09-14T20:44:17Z jasom: axion: with sbcl you'll want to avoid defining something inline without good reason, as inline basically tells sbcl "Inline this no matter what"
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2015-09-14T20:44:52Z jasom: axion: inlining will allow sbcl to elide a lot more type checks without havning to set safety to 0
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2015-09-14T20:45:25Z axion: hmm
2015-09-14T20:45:33Z jasom: axion: if you set the speed opitimization to 3, sbcl will give you oodles of notes about when it can't remove various checks
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2015-09-14T20:46:33Z jasom: leaf functions you only call from within your math library are typically very good places to put inline declarations
2015-09-14T20:46:42Z malice: Hey guys, anyone using here Emacs with Prelude when programming in CL?
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2015-09-14T20:47:20Z malice: I've recently switched from "simple emacs" to prelude and it's really cool, but I'm not sure how to tweak my configuration for CL hacking... I preferred it as it was previously.
2015-09-14T20:47:28Z axion: jasom: so all the functions of the API should never be inlined?
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2015-09-14T20:47:42Z jasom: axion: again, it's complicated
2015-09-14T20:47:55Z axion: ok
2015-09-14T20:48:04Z jasom: axion: ultimately you'll want to measure
2015-09-14T20:48:49Z jasom: axion: you can also have a local inline declaration where you call functions that are both internally called and part of the API without affecting the outside world
2015-09-14T20:49:08Z jasom: the problem with declaring API functions inline is that you need to make predictions about how they will be called by other people
2015-09-14T20:49:54Z axion: i see
2015-09-14T20:51:10Z spyrosoft: In Let Over Lambda, there is an example that demonstrates that '`q evaluates to 'q. However, when I try it using SBCL, it evaluates to `q. Is this an implementation thing, or what could be different?
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2015-09-14T20:51:14Z jasom: If you expect them to be mostly called in tight loops, it's maybe a good idea, and then people can locally declare them notinline if they have problems
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2015-09-14T20:51:54Z jasom: spyrosoft: " An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition, provided that the side-effect behavior of the substitute form F2 is also consistent with the description given above. The constructed copy of the template might or might not share list structure with the
2015-09-14T20:51:56Z jasom: template itself. As an example, the above definition implies that "
2015-09-14T20:51:58Z axion: gotcha, thanks
2015-09-14T20:52:35Z jasom: spyrosoft: so '`q can evaluate to any form that will be equal to q when evaluated; this includes 'q as well as any number of other forms.
2015-09-14T20:53:01Z spyrosoft: Oh. It is the same thing, isn't it.
2015-09-14T20:53:12Z spyrosoft: Cool. Thank you.
2015-09-14T20:53:20Z jasom: spyrosoft: if you need predictible results to an unevaluated backquote, use a library that does this (e.g. fare-quasiquote)
2015-09-14T20:53:54Z jasom: spyrosoft: it's actually *not* the same thing, it will just evaluate to the same thing
2015-09-14T20:54:29Z jasom: e.g. (equal '`q ''q) may be T or nil depending on the implementation
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2015-09-14T20:54:54Z jasom: but (equal `q 'q) must always be t
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2015-09-14T20:55:56Z spyrosoft: Why would an implementation opt for one over the other?
2015-09-14T20:56:34Z spyrosoft: Or is that the way it just shook out?
2015-09-14T20:56:35Z Bicyclidine: well, 'q is the most obvious thing for `q to expand to. it just doesn't have to, and with more complicated forms there's more than one way to do it.
2015-09-14T20:56:53Z jasom: spyrosoft: for better printing of forms that include quasiquotes
2015-09-14T20:57:40Z spyrosoft: Do you mean it makes it more obvious where the quasiquotes were prior to being evaluated?
2015-09-14T20:58:05Z jasom: spyrosoft: lets say you're debugging a macro that contains  `((,a b) ,c ,@d): would you rather see  (append (list (append (list a) (list 'b) 'nil)) (list c) d 'nil) or `((,a b) ,c ,@d) in your printout?
2015-09-14T20:58:56Z spyrosoft: I wonder why scheme chose the more verbose method.
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2015-09-14T20:59:32Z spyrosoft: Thanks for clarifying.
2015-09-14T20:59:48Z jasom: spyrosoft: possibly since it's the simpler implementation, combined with the fact that there are reasons to want all implementations to have the same result of quasiquotation
2015-09-14T21:00:41Z spyrosoft: You guys rock. How long have you been coding in Lisp?
2015-09-14T21:00:47Z |3b|: also, scheme could just say "do it this way" without a bunch of existing implementations complaining about having to rewrite code and/or break compatibility with existing pre-CL code
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2015-09-14T21:03:59Z Cthulhux`: constructs like '`q are one of the reasons why lisp is hard to dive into
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2015-09-14T21:05:09Z Cthulhux`: |3b|: isn't lisp shattered similarly?
2015-09-14T21:05:15Z Cthulhux`: * scheme
2015-09-14T21:06:04Z dlowe: common lisp is not shattered similarly.
2015-09-14T21:06:19Z dlowe: if you're talking about the lisp family, you could ask the same of the algol family
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2015-09-14T21:07:14Z |3b|: Cthulhux`: it might be now, but not when it was originally specified
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2015-09-14T21:07:31Z Cthulhux`: neither was lisp when it was originally specified.
2015-09-14T21:07:31Z spyrosoft: Is there a global variable in CL that can be changed to change the way it is printed?
2015-09-14T21:08:02Z dlowe: if your program depends on the precise representation of '`q, I think you need to rewrite your program.
2015-09-14T21:08:20Z |3b|: "lisp" was very fragmented when CL was specified, which is the whole point of specifying a "common" lisp
2015-09-14T21:08:32Z jasom: dlowe: see optima quasiquote for an example of where it might make sense
2015-09-14T21:08:43Z |3b|: (or at least the parts of "lisp" that were interested in becoming "CL"s)
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2015-09-14T21:08:53Z jasom: spyrosoft: it's not just how it's printed; `foo has a different internal representation than 'foo
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2015-09-14T21:09:24Z jasom: spyrosoft: probably something like (sb-some-internal-package:backquote foo)
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2015-09-14T21:09:40Z jasom: (SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE foo) it is
2015-09-14T21:09:43Z jasom just checked
2015-09-14T21:10:33Z jasom: whereas 'foo would be (cl:quote foo)
2015-09-14T21:10:49Z spyrosoft: How did you check?
2015-09-14T21:10:53Z jasom: (car '`foo)
2015-09-14T21:11:10Z spyrosoft: Wow
2015-09-14T21:11:28Z dwchandler: nice
2015-09-14T21:11:57Z jasom: spyrosoft: I first encountered lisp in an AI class in '99 but didn't really start lisp programming until maybe 8 years ago or so
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2015-09-14T21:42:45Z koats: Is there a simple way to loop over a range defined by variables, e.g. loop for n from begin to end? It seems that the loop macro doesn't allow the begin/end variables.
2015-09-14T21:43:12Z |3b|: that is the way
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2015-09-14T21:44:12Z whiteline: (loop for n from 0 to 10 collect n) ?
2015-09-14T21:44:14Z |3b|: (let ((a 1) (b 10)) (loop for i from a to b collect i))=>(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
2015-09-14T21:44:53Z koats: hm, when I've tried to use values passed to a function it seems to not work
2015-09-14T21:45:02Z koats: arguments, I mean
2015-09-14T21:46:13Z |3b|: ((lambda (a b) (loop for i from a to b collect i)) 2 8) => (2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
2015-09-14T21:48:23Z |3b| 's random guess is that you had something that wasn't a number, maybe a string like "123" instead of the actual number 123
2015-09-14T21:49:30Z koats: I've figured it out I think, is the "a to b" form not bidirectional?
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2015-09-14T21:50:04Z koats: meaning from 2 to 1 isn't valid
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2015-09-14T21:51:09Z koats: Ah I have to use "downto" instead...thanks!
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2015-09-14T22:32:49Z jasom: koats: also, look also at below/above to prevent off-by-one errors by making the end condition exclusive rather than inclusive
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2015-09-14T22:46:37Z aeth: Here's something in Lisp (i.e. do instead of the loop DSL) that works on sequences in general (e.g. lists, vectors): http://paste.lisp.org/display/155188
2015-09-14T22:47:01Z aeth: (range 'vector 15 -3) ; #(15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 -1 -2 -3)
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2015-09-14T22:48:38Z aeth: It can be made more general. I think making a key that optionally turns off the 1+ in size would make it behave like Python's range() when called with two arguments, i.e. doesn't include the last number.
2015-09-14T22:50:27Z aeth: It's not a one-liner but afaik collect in loop is only for lists so this is more generic.
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2015-09-14T22:57:58Z aeth: ok, my function isn't good because it's fast for vectors but not for lists, unlike loop which has no problem at 100000
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2015-09-14T23:01:00Z jasom: aeth: not too hard to tune it for lists too; someone may have done this already though
2015-09-14T23:02:35Z aeth: jasom: Right. I was originally going to use an ecase but then I found make-sequence and thought it was magical. But it's too slow for lists and doesn't work on strings (integers need to be converted into chars) and it's not even fully efficient for vectors because make-array has element-type that make-sequence doesn't have.
2015-09-14T23:03:06Z aeth: So I guess the only way to do it efficiently is to have separate implementations for each sequence type
2015-09-14T23:04:46Z aeth: This would also be a good use case for a lazy list, which unfortunately isn't built in. Then (range 'lazy-list 0 :infinity) could work.
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2015-09-15T02:07:09Z FreeBleeder: how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:35Z FreeBleeder: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry AI alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki araujo arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag atgreen axion how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:36Z FreeBleeder: backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz breakds briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cluck how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:37Z FreeBleeder: cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyphase cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus diginet dilated_dinosaur dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:38Z FreeBleeder: drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye eazar001 ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron euphoriaa EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:39Z FreeBleeder: fiddlerwoaroof fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 FreeBleeder froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko_ gnawrghz gniourf grouzen Grue` Guest99584 guiloooo gwyon_ gz how 2 lisp
2015-09-15T02:07:40Z FreeBleeder: H4ns haasn harish_ HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hydan hyoyoung ineiros Intensity ircbrowse isoraqathedh ivan\ j0ni j_king jackc- jackdaniel jasom jason_m jayne jcmdln jdtest jdz jeadre jeaye Jesin jfe how 2 lisp
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2015-09-15T02:16:14Z fluter: what is this?
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2015-09-15T02:17:34Z resttime: there seems to be an uncreative spammer popping up every now and then
2015-09-15T02:18:00Z resttime: not the first time it's happened too
2015-09-15T02:21:34Z jcmdln: huh
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2015-09-15T02:25:40Z eazar001: well he asked you all a question. i think he deserves an answer.
2015-09-15T02:25:59Z eazar001: "how 2 lisp"
2015-09-15T02:31:22Z gnawrghz: wat
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2015-09-15T02:50:14Z pjb: to lisp: open a parenthesis, write the operator, write the arguments, close the parenthesis.
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2015-09-15T03:32:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-15T05:07:20Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-09-15T05:10:40Z pillton: Can anyone recommend a good book on denotational semantics? I have been reading the chapter in the book Lisp in Small Pieces, and I am still struggling to grasp why this is important to know.
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2015-09-15T05:12:30Z beach: pillton: I don't know of a good book on denotational semantics.  However, what you need for understanding the chapter in LiSP is not very complicated.
2015-09-15T05:13:03Z pillton: beach: No. I just don't understand why it is included.
2015-09-15T05:13:12Z beach: pillton: Mainly, you can think of the meaning of a program as the normal form of the expression in lambda calculus that corresponds to the program.
2015-09-15T05:13:29Z beach: That one is easy.
2015-09-15T05:13:50Z pillton: Yes, but the notation gets awful really quickly.
2015-09-15T05:13:54Z beach: If you know the meaning as defined this way, you can determine whether a transformation preserves the meaning.
2015-09-15T05:14:01Z pillton: To the point where the lisp code is easier.
2015-09-15T05:14:20Z beach: It is to make sure that your transformations preserve the meaning.
2015-09-15T05:15:07Z beach: You never actually compute the normal form of the expression in lambda calculus.
2015-09-15T05:15:37Z beach: You just need to convince yourself that some transformation of the program does not alter that normal form.
2015-09-15T05:16:00Z pillton: Ok. Fair enough.
2015-09-15T05:19:12Z pillton: beach: Did you add support for continuations in SICL?
2015-09-15T05:19:28Z beach: No, I didn't.
2015-09-15T05:19:34Z pillton: I know it is defined by the standard.
2015-09-15T05:19:38Z pillton: isn't!
2015-09-15T05:20:17Z beach: They are also semantically problematic.
2015-09-15T05:21:16Z beach: And it is not obvious how to implement them efficiently.
2015-09-15T05:21:48Z beach: I might add support for them in Cleavir so that Cleavir could be used to implement Scheme.
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2015-09-15T06:11:48Z pjb: pillton: denotational semantics is a kind of logic semantics.  And the think to understand about semantics in mathematics is that there's nothing to be understood.
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2015-09-15T06:12:29Z pjb: pillton: the problem you see is that mathematics is a closed system.  You take some axioms and deduction rules, and you build theories mechanically.   How can you give any meaning to those theories?
2015-09-15T06:12:44Z pjb: pillton: I mean, within the frame of mathematical logics?
2015-09-15T06:13:20Z pjb: pillton: So the only mathematical way to "give meaning" to some mathematical object, is to map it to some other mathematical object.  Good job!
2015-09-15T06:13:42Z pjb: pillton: so basically, semantics, is the mapping of one theory to another.  Let's hope this will help :-)
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2015-09-15T06:14:17Z pjb: pillton: actually, it can help: the other theory can be simplier, or have different properties, that will help you understand the "concrete" theory.
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2015-09-15T06:16:02Z pjb: pillton: in the worst case, you can go as far as mathematical physics, where you have a mathematical model of the physical universe, and map some formal system (such as a computer program) to side effects in the mathematical model of the physical universe.  This would give you a formal semantics of your program I/O.
2015-09-15T06:16:03Z pillton: pjb: That is basically the argument that Christian Queinnec puts forward in the book. I'm yet to see how it helps though.
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2015-09-15T06:17:12Z pjb: Really, it helps because if you define it mathematically with all the precision required, then you can 1- generate the program denoted automatically, or 2- very that a given program implements the semantics denoted, _assuming_ the model theory.
2015-09-15T06:17:44Z pjb: So if you take a well known and understood model theory (eg. lambda calculus), you can give a specification of a programming languages way more precise than eg. the CLHS.
2015-09-15T06:18:18Z pjb: Notice how about all discussion in cll or #lisp is about the semantics of CL programs.  The CLHS is often underspecified or ambiguous, or contradictory.
2015-09-15T06:18:33Z pjb: On the other hand, r5rs programmers can always refer to the chapter 7 of r5rs.
2015-09-15T06:20:34Z pjb: pillton: If you have some time to study it, I can only encourage you to do so. My best time at the university wasn't the 4 years I spent studing the imposed cursus, but the one summer month I could spend in the library reading this book about formal semantics -- unfortunately, I would have needed at least 3 months to complete its study :-(
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2015-09-15T06:21:45Z pjb: If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need. -- Marcus Tullius Cicero
2015-09-15T06:21:45Z pjb:  
2015-09-15T06:21:54Z pjb: And if you have a mathematics library, you're in paradise.
2015-09-15T06:21:58Z pillton: pjb: Yep. I read yesterday that Christian Queinnec was involved in the EuLisp project for that very reason.
2015-09-15T06:22:33Z pillton: pjb: I'm not at university. Been there done that and a PhD too.
2015-09-15T06:22:45Z pjb: Well, any old European or French lispers will have been involved in EuLisp or vlisp.
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2015-09-15T06:23:09Z pjb: Doesn't a PhD give a lifetime access card to university libraries?
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2015-09-15T06:23:35Z pillton: I have one where I work.
2015-09-15T06:23:41Z pjb: ;-)
2015-09-15T06:23:47Z pillton: What I don't have is time to search endlessly for good material.
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2015-09-15T06:24:45Z Bike: 's what academia is for
2015-09-15T06:25:10Z pjb: pillton: perhaps, given it's mostly a mathematical subject, you could go ask on mathematical usenet groups, or wherever formal logic/semantics  mathematicians hang nowadays.
2015-09-15T06:25:34Z pillton: pjb: You said "this book" before. Which book is that?
2015-09-15T06:25:35Z pjb: Perhaps we need a "university advice"-as-a-service outlet.
2015-09-15T06:25:58Z pjb: Hey! It was 30 years ago!
2015-09-15T06:26:13Z pillton: pjb: It is clearly a memorable event for you.
2015-09-15T06:26:19Z pillton: :)
2015-09-15T06:27:14Z pillton: Ok ok. I'll keep persevering.
2015-09-15T06:28:33Z pjb: Unfortunately, it was before laptops were on the radar, so I don't have any note I took available anymore.
2015-09-15T06:29:07Z pillton: I like how Christian puts references to other material throughout the book.
2015-09-15T06:29:36Z pillton: pjb: No clay tablet either I take it?
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2015-09-15T06:29:41Z pjb: :-)
2015-09-15T06:29:42Z Bike: citations?
2015-09-15T06:30:33Z pillton: Bike: Elaborated citations. e.g. You can find more information on denotational semantics for parallel architectures in [?].
2015-09-15T06:30:58Z Bike: if that's new to you you've been reading some pretty sad books, i think :(
2015-09-15T06:33:16Z pillton: The path that led me here is different to yours.
2015-09-15T06:33:31Z Bike: fair.
2015-09-15T06:33:56Z Bike: well, it's pretty usual in academic texts, anywho. look forward to it.
2015-09-15T06:34:34Z pillton: Oh wait.. the elaborated citations? or the parallel architectures?
2015-09-15T06:34:50Z Bike: the citations
2015-09-15T06:35:02Z pillton: Ok I misunderstood.
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2015-09-15T06:38:47Z pillton: It is common in my field. I guess I haven't read much on the subjects covered in LISP.
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2015-09-15T06:41:31Z aeth: I had a huge bottleneck. I tried SBCL optimizing it and it stayed around the same median, and then I rewrote it to go backwards with division instead of forwards with multiplication and it sped up 25 times. Now I know why so many people here hate micro-optimizations. Although, to be fair, it's a Project Euler thing and the problems are kind of constructed to be like this.
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2015-09-15T06:45:47Z pjb: aeth: that's strange, usually multiplying is faster than dividing. Are you doing much fewer divisions?
2015-09-15T06:46:20Z aeth: I'm guessing more than 25x fewer divisions
2015-09-15T06:47:45Z aeth: actually 50x fewer divisions since my very quick rewrite doesn't take into account the case where x = y in z / x = y
2015-09-15T06:48:47Z aeth: Narrowing down the y's was apparently faster than narrowing down the z's, I guess because there are fewer z's if I start with a vector of the possible z's.
2015-09-15T06:50:00Z aeth: oh sorry, not x = y, it's a bit more complicated than that, I mean I go through the numbers twice and it's still faster.
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2015-09-15T07:15:21Z aeth: pjb: it looks like I replaced 808201 multiplications with 900 calls to #'mod (not division) and that's why it's faster.
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2015-09-15T07:15:47Z aeth: i.e. roughly the square root fewer iterations
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2015-09-15T08:29:38Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-09-15T11:01:07Z Xach: dim: I can't easily just keep the old cl-ixf for building, unless there's a release, branch, or tag to use
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2015-09-15T11:18:33Z dim: Xach: understood. maybe I should just release another version of pgloader then, that knows how to use the IXF new API
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2015-09-15T11:21:15Z Xach: dim: If I had more flexible build control, this would be easier to work around, but I have what I have (and not a lot of time at the moment)
2015-09-15T11:21:30Z Xach is on his last day at Clozure today
2015-09-15T11:21:39Z dim: oh yeah, that too
2015-09-15T11:21:47Z dim: you have secured a plan for what's next?
2015-09-15T11:23:21Z Xach: I have a few things pending. Something will work out, I'm sure.
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2015-09-15T11:23:52Z Cymew: Oh, Clozure shrinking, are they?
2015-09-15T11:24:13Z Shinmera wonders if he should submit Flare for QL already or wait a bit longer until he has fancier demos for it out
2015-09-15T11:24:51Z Cymew: I guess lisp business are just as hard to keep running in the black as any kind of businesses.
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2015-09-15T11:31:37Z Vityok: lisp needs a bit of hype to attract more attention and money
2015-09-15T11:33:30Z Firedancer: Are there many in CL community that actually care about those things?
2015-09-15T11:33:55Z jackdaniel 
2015-09-15T11:34:01Z rjmacready: i used to, now not anymore
2015-09-15T11:34:31Z rjmacready: on the other hand, am i part of the CL community? :v
2015-09-15T11:34:48Z Shinmera: I prefer to just peacefully write software, but sadly that's not something that brings a profit.
2015-09-15T11:36:06Z Shinmera: So while I personally shy away from attention it would be a good thing for those that want to make a living off Lisp.
2015-09-15T11:36:06Z dim: Xach: crossing fingers in case, but I'm sure it will
2015-09-15T11:37:09Z resttime: I try to hype common lisp sometimes, like brining up CLOS one time when there was some discussion about OOP somewhere
2015-09-15T11:37:45Z dim: Xach: https://github.com/dimitri/cl-ixf/releases/tag/v0.9
2015-09-15T11:37:49Z Xach: dim: thanks!
2015-09-15T11:38:05Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/cl-ixf/tree/v0.9 maybe
2015-09-15T11:38:13Z dim: it's the easiest way out, all considered
2015-09-15T11:38:18Z dim: hope it's going to work for you
2015-09-15T11:38:50Z Xach: that works well
2015-09-15T11:39:30Z dim: next month you will have the same problem again, and I will issue another release of cl-ixf at that moment
2015-09-15T11:39:54Z dim: it might be that I make an interim release without being prompted by QL, in which case it'll just work for you
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2015-09-15T11:40:14Z dim: mmmm, actually... the next problem is going to happen only at next pgloader release
2015-09-15T11:40:24Z dim: I'll sync with a release of ixf myself then, all good
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2015-09-15T11:40:36Z Xach: yes, syncing with pgloader would help
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2015-09-15T11:46:17Z resttime: Hmmm, maybe I'll check out a sigplan meeting to see if there are any lispers there
2015-09-15T11:46:38Z resttime: I'm worried I'll only find Haskellers though
2015-09-15T11:46:58Z resttime: Errr, not that I have anything against people writing programs in haskell or anything
2015-09-15T11:48:15Z resttime: Maybe I can try to hype lisp there as the only lisper
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2015-09-15T11:51:33Z resttime: I would talk how I learned about closures and objects :D
2015-09-15T11:51:40Z Firedancer: Most of the hype seem to be in Clojure camp
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2015-09-15T11:59:12Z resttime: Seeing as how connected it is with Java, it makes sense
2015-09-15T11:59:17Z dim: Xach: I will, it's just that I like it when small projects remain very small, as in just a master branch, no release, a README and there you go; and well, given release management, ixf is already past that
2015-09-15T12:00:10Z resttime: Can't remember much about clojure though other than that, after touching it like twice in the past
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2015-09-15T12:24:46Z Vityok: is there are scanf implementation in Lisp out there? I tried to find it, but without success
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2015-09-15T12:25:32Z TDT: Vityok: are you talking about something like http://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/lisp_input_output.htm ?
2015-09-15T12:25:37Z resttime: scanf implemented would probably be format I guess
2015-09-15T12:26:03Z resttime: oh oops i was thinking of printf, need some sleep
2015-09-15T12:26:14Z TDT: or coffee :)
2015-09-15T12:26:36Z Xach: Vityok: Xof implemented (setf (format ...) ...) but it is kind of a joke
2015-09-15T12:26:46Z Shinmera: Vityok: I know there's stuff to make binary format specifications easy, but I don't know of anything for scanf.
2015-09-15T12:27:12Z Vityok: TDT: indeed, I was talking about scanf
2015-09-15T12:27:13Z jackdaniel: maybe matching with optima read expression?
2015-09-15T12:27:44Z Vityok: actually, I've implemented a part of the scanf already, just wanted to make sure that I am not wasting my time doing what is already done
2015-09-15T12:28:33Z Vityok: it is really fun: scanf is basically an interpreter of a trivial declarative language
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2015-09-15T12:29:00Z Cymew: What are do doing, really?
2015-09-15T12:29:33Z TDT: Yeah, I gotta get off the bus in a moment, but I need to read up more about scanf, because I’m unsure why a read from terminal and set to a variable isn’t sufficient
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2015-09-15T12:30:47Z splittist: what would you do with a z or a t?
2015-09-15T12:32:49Z Xof: one of my Infinite Free Time projects is to do (setf format) right
2015-09-15T12:33:17Z Vityok: splittist: what do you mean?
2015-09-15T12:34:49Z splittist: what would a size_t or ptr diff mean when read by lisp?
2015-09-15T12:35:58Z Vityok: I wasn't speaking about a complete 100% compatible implementation that passes POSIX tests or the like
2015-09-15T12:36:25Z Vityok: but reading a number, string, characters, etc.
2015-09-15T12:38:50Z Vityok: it comes as a handy replacement of PPCRE in some cases
2015-09-15T12:39:43Z Cymew: Interesting use case.
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2015-09-15T12:43:03Z Vityok: lets take a line from some log file saying: "process with pid=123 crashed, core dumped in /tmp/core.file.123" - how do you extract the pid and the core file name?
2015-09-15T12:43:24Z Vityok: scanf lets you do this with a very simple format string and a single function call
2015-09-15T12:45:06Z phadthai: if you have a string to symbol-list splitter, for simple cases you could use destructuring-bind, if not regex
2015-09-15T12:45:39Z Vityok: or use a trivial format string and a single function call
2015-09-15T12:46:06Z jackdaniel: (funcall (pick-parser (pop directive format)) (read))
2015-09-15T12:46:06Z Vityok: in this case: "process with pid=%d crashed, core dumped in %s"
2015-09-15T12:48:44Z splittist: This is the Xof version, FWIW: http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/format-setf.lisp
2015-09-15T12:49:20Z jackdaniel:     ;; erm, this needs an end, really. <- XD
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2015-09-15T12:49:39Z jackdaniel: or "what was I thinking?"
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2015-09-15T13:04:57Z dim: what is (setf (format ...) ...) about?
2015-09-15T13:06:03Z Vityok: iirc it is to format what scanf is to printf
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2015-09-15T13:08:49Z loke````: dim: there is no setf function for format
2015-09-15T13:10:55Z Xach: dim: about using the format control string to initialize the variables
2015-09-15T13:11:08Z Xach: loke````: see context of the last hour. xof wrote (setf (format ...) ...)
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2015-09-15T13:13:39Z loke````: Xach: Oh, really? Cool.
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2015-09-15T13:15:15Z dim: I still don't get it, maybe I'm just too tired
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2015-09-15T13:16:42Z loke````: Without actually seeing it, wouldn't be logical if (setf (format nil "~d ~d" x) "10 20") set the variables x and y to 10 and 20 respectively.
2015-09-15T13:16:49Z jackdaniel: dim: as far as I understand `(setf (format "~A ~A" foo bar) "1 2") ' will assign foo with 1 and bar with 2
2015-09-15T13:17:20Z Xach: that's the idea
2015-09-15T13:17:28Z Xach:           http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/format-setf.lisp
2015-09-15T13:17:30Z Xach: err
2015-09-15T13:17:32Z dim: oooh, scanf then. ok.
2015-09-15T13:17:51Z Xach: (setf (format nil "~a://~a~@[:~d]/~a" protocol host port path) "http://www-jcsu/~csr21/")
2015-09-15T13:18:00Z dim: format strings are maybe to crazy for that, aren't they?
2015-09-15T13:18:28Z Xach: Probably. This seems more for cool hack value than anything else. But maybe if Xof gets infinite free time!
2015-09-15T13:18:30Z dim: it would be quite nice to have that ;-)
2015-09-15T13:18:47Z dim: more than cool hack value
2015-09-15T13:19:12Z dim: I've written parsers for PostgreSQL URI strings and the like, and I would have liked it to be a simple setf format
2015-09-15T13:19:45Z loke````: In most cases CL-PPCRE:SCAN-TO-STRINGS is an excellent alternative
2015-09-15T13:19:49Z dim:     postgresql://[user[:password]@][netloc][:port][/dbname][?option=value&...]
2015-09-15T13:20:13Z loke````: You can to that with cl-ppcre
2015-09-15T13:20:46Z dim: I've done it with esrap
2015-09-15T13:21:00Z loke````: never tried esram. What's the benefits?
2015-09-15T13:21:01Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/parsers/command-db-uri.lisp
2015-09-15T13:21:09Z dim: any option would be better than a regexp ;-)
2015-09-15T13:21:19Z Vityok: indeed
2015-09-15T13:21:26Z loke````: Nothing wrong with regexes
2015-09-15T13:21:49Z loke````: You can use cl-ppcre:parse-string to parse the regex into a sexp.
2015-09-15T13:22:16Z dim: I've done sexp based regexpes in cl-abnf yeah
2015-09-15T13:22:32Z dim: I generate them from another esrap based parser, btw ;-)
2015-09-15T13:22:45Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/cl-abnf/blob/master/abnf.lisp
2015-09-15T13:23:14Z dim: what I have with esrap is easy maintenance
2015-09-15T13:23:31Z dim: regexp even in sexp format are write-once (then forget about it) to my eyes and brain
2015-09-15T13:23:35Z dim: so I avoid them
2015-09-15T13:24:11Z loke````: This markup processor I have written contains some regexes. I kinda enjoy them: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-markup/blob/master/cl-markup.lisp#L83
2015-09-15T13:24:42Z Xach: I like cl-abnf
2015-09-15T13:24:43Z Vityok: since it is time to show sources, here is my (partial) scanf implementation: https://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match/src/aa766d1525a9deed56cfb9737c1e402837132105/contrib/scanf.lisp?at=devel&fileviewer=file-view-default
2015-09-15T13:25:04Z Vityok: the biggest gaps are floating-point numbers and sets of characters
2015-09-15T13:25:30Z loke````: Vityok: I'm a bit scared when I see a (SAFETY 0) declamation on top of a file.
2015-09-15T13:25:54Z loke````: Also, no need to put declamations inside eval-when
2015-09-15T13:26:38Z Vityok: ok, the performance win is not significant in any case, will remove it
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2015-09-15T13:27:42Z loke````: Vityok: I have very rarely seen more than a minimal performance gain (single-digit percentages) going from safety 1 to 0. The benefit of 1 is that you get type-checking instead of data corruptions (which you often won't even see until long later when the entire runtime goes belly up)
2015-09-15T13:28:55Z Vityok: thanks for the tips
2015-09-15T13:29:24Z loke````: It's fun though... Have you tried adding 1 to a string with safety 0? Fun fun :-)
2015-09-15T13:29:50Z Vityok: I didn't, but I doubt it is fun as in fun
2015-09-15T13:30:03Z loke````: OK, let's call it "interesting"
2015-09-15T13:31:00Z loke````: Try calling this function with a string argument: (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize (safety 0) (speed 3)) (type fixnum x)) (+ 10 x))
2015-09-15T13:32:04Z Vityok: okay, it is fun
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2015-09-15T15:47:32Z pjb: loke: pong
2015-09-15T15:47:36Z pjb: loke````: pong
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2015-09-15T15:55:45Z pjb: Xof: (progn (setf (format nil "~{~A~^ ~} ~{~A~^ ~}" list1 list2) "hello world how do you do") (values list1 list2)) --> ??
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2015-09-15T15:56:13Z pjb: ie. Format strings specify ambiguous input.
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2015-09-15T15:59:16Z Xof: no shit sherlock
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2015-09-15T16:00:00Z pjb: Notice that even scanf formats are not printf format. They're just similar.
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2015-09-15T16:05:26Z veckon: Does anyone know if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS had any relationship to Lisp streams (conceptually, historically, etc.)?
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2015-09-15T16:08:00Z pjb: Probably none, other than same meaning.
2015-09-15T16:08:16Z pjb: Data flows in streams, just like water.
2015-09-15T16:10:31Z nyef: Do stagnant pools of data breed mosquitoes?
2015-09-15T16:11:35Z Oladon: Where do you think Java came from?
2015-09-15T16:11:35Z pjb: Fact is, I came across an article recently, that indicated that one problem of big data is too much data, notably old data, which is worthless.
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2015-09-15T16:13:16Z pjb: Amazon knows what I ordered ten years ago.  I don't even remember what.  How is that relevant to my future acquisitions?  (It might be, but exponentially less).
2015-09-15T16:13:31Z phadthai: veckon: STREAMS were more for device drivers to be accessed using a consistent interface, like devices providing ioctl+vfs stubs on BSD or Linux
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2015-09-15T16:17:16Z veckon: According to the article it was also intended to be used for networking (as opposed to a socket API). So it was a general framework for I/O in a sense, which made me wonder if that's why Common Lisp was socket agnostic
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2015-09-15T16:18:20Z phadthai: veckon: I guess that the similarity is that they ware both abstractions, I'm not sure if it's easy to track the ancestry though...
2015-09-15T16:18:35Z phadthai: veckon: yes you're right that they were more generalized
2015-09-15T16:18:53Z phadthai: s/ware/are/
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2015-09-15T16:22:39Z phadthai: someone who used genera might remember if TCP networking (which it supported) was integrated with flavor streams etc, I've not personally used it
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2015-09-15T16:25:18Z veckon: LispWorks exposes a stream API for TCP as well, but of course the abstraction breaks with UDP (which LispWorks also supports now as well, but through a more traditional socket API). I think that's the fundamental incongruity - streams are not connectionless by definition so a fundamental part of the transport layer cannot be represented trivially.
2015-09-15T16:25:27Z dlowe: pjb: if what you ordered has an expected lifetime of 10 years, they might push a replacement to you
2015-09-15T16:25:37Z dlowe: pjb: but yes, in the general case, it's true
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2015-09-15T17:31:09Z Shinmera: Still not as nice as I'd like it to be, and there's a few bugs remaining to sort out, but it's getting there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8UMLhcaik
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2015-09-15T17:31:25Z jackdaniel watches
2015-09-15T17:34:54Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: looks nice, what do you use it for?
2015-09-15T17:35:10Z Shinmera: Particle effects, naturally.
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2015-09-15T17:35:31Z jackdaniel: Obviously I mean - what do you use particle effects for?
2015-09-15T17:35:38Z Shinmera: Nothing specific yet.
2015-09-15T17:35:57Z Shinmera: But games in the future some day, probably.
2015-09-15T17:36:26Z jackdaniel: it reminded me one kind of shooting in "contra 2" for famicom
2015-09-15T17:36:36Z jackdaniel: (video that is)
2015-09-15T17:37:21Z Shinmera: Right. I'm trying to see that I can make it easy as possible to get these kinds of patterns.
2015-09-15T17:37:50Z jackdaniel: easy in terms of efficiency or readibility?
2015-09-15T17:37:55Z Shinmera: Readability.
2015-09-15T17:38:00Z Shinmera: Efficiency always comes later.
2015-09-15T17:38:15Z jackdaniel: (or never - judging from the web)
2015-09-15T17:38:48Z jackdaniel: webdev*
2015-09-15T17:39:02Z Shinmera: Well, they're getting there. The constraints are just tough.
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2015-09-15T17:41:08Z jackdaniel: imo putting everything in a browser is an ineffective way of reinventing operating system by definition, so even if they reach this 60fps I think the problem lies in fact, that pages should be static in a first place (but I'm aware that it's unpopular view on these things)
2015-09-15T17:41:44Z jackdaniel: things which eat 2MB of resources in tk eat 200MB in firefox, because firefox has to keep up
2015-09-15T17:42:09Z Shinmera: Whatever the case, it ain't the topic.
2015-09-15T17:42:10Z mezzoemrys: What would be the best way to go about writing a macro that repeats a certain line N times?
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2015-09-15T17:42:38Z Shinmera: mezzoemrys: Expand to a progn and copy the list?
2015-09-15T17:42:50Z Shinmera: Or form, rather.
2015-09-15T17:42:51Z jasom: jackdaniel: wow, Super C, I hadn't thought about that in years
2015-09-15T17:43:13Z jackdaniel: jasom: "Super C"?
2015-09-15T17:43:31Z jasom: er Super Contra
2015-09-15T17:43:35Z jackdaniel: ah :)
2015-09-15T17:44:01Z jackdaniel: I still have FCEUX and pads for this kind of games :-P
2015-09-15T17:44:31Z Shinmera: mezzoemrys: (defmacro foo () `(progn ,@(loop repeat n collect form))) ?
2015-09-15T17:44:40Z jasom: I need to track down a cartridge, I have my original frontloader still working, but only have the first Contra, not the second
2015-09-15T17:46:52Z mezzoemrys: Hm, I do need to pass in a list of ordered pairs (or two ordered lists) and then be able to pass the parts into another macro and return each of the lists stuck end to end without a progn
2015-09-15T17:47:19Z Shinmera: Sounds like your other macro should be a function.
2015-09-15T17:47:24Z jackdaniel: mezzoemrys: maybe paste imagined macro call and desired effect
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2015-09-15T17:48:49Z Shinmera: Or in the very least the interleaving you're imagining isn't really adequate.
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2015-09-15T17:51:34Z mezzoemrys: might be a bit here, I noticed something in the code that shinmera posted that may be my solution
2015-09-15T17:53:28Z mezzoemrys: hm, nope
2015-09-15T17:53:37Z mezzoemrys: (defmacro foo (list-1 list-2) `,@(loop for item-1 in list-1 for item-2 in list-2 collect (bar item-1 item-2)))
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2015-09-15T17:54:34Z jackdaniel: mezzoemrys: write call and expected expansion and paste it somewhere, it would be helpful (either for you and for anyone willing to help you)
2015-09-15T17:56:05Z rme: mezzoemrys: Consider (mapcar 'list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)).  Does that give you any ideas?
2015-09-15T17:57:02Z dlowe: *map
2015-09-15T17:57:11Z dlowe: oh, never mind
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2015-09-15T18:03:02Z mezzoemrys: This is my day 2 or 3 of lisp, so I'm still having to look up some things as I go here...
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2015-09-15T18:04:17Z jackdaniel feels so ignored
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2015-09-15T18:04:51Z jasom: mezzoemrys: I would suggest you paste what you imagine the macro call should look like, and what you imagine the result of the call would be
2015-09-15T18:05:07Z jasom: mezzoemrys: because I'm not clear on what you are asking about, and an example would go a long way to clarify it
2015-09-15T18:05:45Z jasom: also `,@ is not valid
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2015-09-15T18:06:02Z mezzoemrys: yeah, that part in particular is what let me know I was on the wrong trail
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2015-09-15T18:06:37Z jasom: mezzoemrys: http://paste.lisp.org  <-- go there, type in what you want a call to this macro to look like, and what its results should be
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2015-09-15T18:07:47Z mezzoemrys: on it
2015-09-15T18:08:00Z jasom: mezzoemrys: also there is no way to return multiple forms from a macro
2015-09-15T18:08:39Z jasom: assuming your macro is generating lisp code, a PROGN will do what you want (as Shinmera suggested)
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2015-09-15T18:12:48Z jasom: If you want to generate the meat of e.g. a tagbody, you can't do it with a macro, you may be able to rework your code where you generate the entire tagbody, and splice in the results of functions though
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2015-09-15T18:33:23Z mezzoemrys: Yeah, you do seem to be correct here jasom, that seems to be what my problem is.
2015-09-15T18:34:00Z jasom: so the next question is "why do you want to return multiple forms?" from there we can find another way to caccomplish your goal
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2015-09-15T18:35:22Z mezzoemrys: I'm building a table in html using cl-who, and want to be able to build out the rows dynamically
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2015-09-15T18:36:03Z jasom: mezzoemrys: ah, well just call a function that takes a stream and in the function call cl-who
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2015-09-15T18:39:29Z jasom: mezzoemrys: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155242
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2015-09-15T18:40:16Z jasom: If you're going to have a lot of helper functions, it may make sense to just dynamically bind the stream to a variable of your choosing.
2015-09-15T18:41:34Z mezzoemrys: Alright then, this all makes sense
2015-09-15T18:41:57Z jasom: The thing to remember with cl-who is that it generates code that will print the html template, and you can insert more code that prints stuff wherever you want, and it will put your output there.
2015-09-15T18:42:22Z jackdaniel: and if you want to fill cl-who with something, you can write a macro (defmacro bah () `(cl-who … ,@(loop …)))
2015-09-15T18:42:52Z jasom: jackdaniel: right, but cl-who was designed so that you wouldn't need to do that, since you can have functions that print output in arbitrary ploaces
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2015-09-15T18:43:49Z jasom: jackdaniel: *plus* that won't let you loop for a number of times not known at macroexpand time
2015-09-15T18:43:50Z jackdaniel: jasom: right, just tought it may be helpful with his confusion about `,@ - it's not that you put macro call in cl-who, but you make macro which uses cl-who
2015-09-15T18:43:58Z jasom: right
2015-09-15T18:44:24Z mezzoemrys: aha
2015-09-15T18:44:45Z Shinmera: mezzoemrys: By the way, don't I know you from somewhere else?
2015-09-15T18:45:13Z mezzoemrys: Almost certainly, I was on the MSPA fora back in the day, among other places we've bumped into each other
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2015-09-15T18:45:22Z Shinmera: Ah, right, that was probably it.
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2015-09-15T20:30:17Z `jose: Hi, any idea how to match new line with regex-replace-all, I try (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "\n" message "\n    ") but doesn't seems to work.
2015-09-15T20:31:13Z Bicyclidine: you probably need multi line mode or something.
2015-09-15T20:31:33Z Shinmera: You need to double escape the backslash
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2015-09-15T20:31:46Z Shinmera: "\n" is the same as "n" in CL.
2015-09-15T20:32:11Z Bicyclidine: does ppcre make \n an actual newline?
2015-09-15T20:32:12Z Shinmera: "\\n" however will be interpreted as \n by cl-ppcre.
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2015-09-15T20:32:14Z phf: no
2015-09-15T20:32:24Z Shinmera: I thought it did.
2015-09-15T20:32:31Z Shinmera: At least in the search
2015-09-15T20:32:56Z phf: not in the result though
2015-09-15T20:33:01Z Shinmera: Yeah.
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2015-09-15T20:34:03Z Shinmera: Though you can fake it by "(\\n)" "\\1    "
2015-09-15T20:34:27Z Shinmera: Since it will insert groups.
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2015-09-15T20:39:09Z mordocai: Just because i'm curious, what is the proper way to replace with a newline if there isn't one in the search then? (I've never used cl-ppcre, just starting to get into CL)
2015-09-15T20:39:09Z `jose: Using a group works, doesn't seems obvious
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2015-09-15T20:39:44Z Shinmera: mordocai: Insert a literal newline in the string or use format or similar to build one.
2015-09-15T20:40:37Z dlowe: You can also use cl-interpol for both neat regexes and easy \n support
2015-09-15T20:42:08Z plertrood: Hey, is there any way to tell the version of a package downloaded off quicklisp?
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2015-09-15T20:42:47Z Shinmera: plertrood: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :thing))
2015-09-15T20:43:31Z plertrood: Shinmera: Awesome, thanks.
2015-09-15T20:43:34Z Shinmera: plertrood: Though a quicklisp system does not have to have a version field defined in its ASDF, so that might not return anything.
2015-09-15T20:43:58Z Shinmera: Quicklisp does its own monthly versioning.
2015-09-15T20:44:12Z plertrood: I see...
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2015-09-15T20:44:27Z plertrood: So every month the versions of all packages are updated?
2015-09-15T20:44:36Z Shinmera: If there is something to update, yes.
2015-09-15T20:44:57Z plertrood: Ok, that confused me..
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2015-09-15T20:45:15Z plertrood: In other systems, each package specifies the version it needs..
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2015-09-15T20:46:48Z Shinmera: If you use (ql:where-is-system :foo) the path will contain the version quicklisp pulled. For things off of git that'll be the date, for things with the tag it'll be that, etc.
2015-09-15T20:47:05Z Shinmera: *off of a git branch
2015-09-15T20:47:31Z plertrood: Does (ql:update-all-dists) update all the packages in the current project or globally?
2015-09-15T20:47:55Z Shinmera: Your terminology is confusing.
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2015-09-15T20:48:30Z Shinmera: A package means something very specific in CL.
2015-09-15T20:48:56Z Shinmera: What quicklisp manages is systems.
2015-09-15T20:49:02Z plertrood: So I see quri is installed in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/quri-20150113-git
2015-09-15T20:49:31Z carl_sagan is now known as failproofshark
2015-09-15T20:49:37Z plertrood: Would every project on my computer use this library?
2015-09-15T20:49:58Z Shinmera: If it uses the library at all
2015-09-15T20:49:59Z plertrood: So updating for one project would update it for everythin
2015-09-15T20:50:02Z plertrood: ?
2015-09-15T20:50:27Z plertrood: Everything that uses quri...
2015-09-15T20:50:31Z Shinmera: If you update a package on your linux system, is it updated "for everything"?
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2015-09-15T20:50:42Z plertrood: Yes.
2015-09-15T20:50:45Z Shinmera: It's the same situation here.
2015-09-15T20:50:49Z plertrood: I see.
2015-09-15T20:51:09Z plertrood: In e.g., Clojure you update on a project basis...
2015-09-15T20:51:26Z Shinmera: Quicklisp freezes the ecosystem every month to ensure that (in the very least) all the projects are in a buildable state at that point in time.
2015-09-15T20:51:30Z plertrood: So that ancient legacy system would not need testing with every update..
2015-09-15T20:52:19Z Shinmera: Quicklisp can't do that kind of thing you're describing, because ASDF can't do it.
2015-09-15T20:52:49Z XachX: Nixos
2015-09-15T20:53:03Z mordocai: I think https://github.com/CodyReichert/qi/ might be trying to do something like that? At least it differentiates between global and local.
2015-09-15T20:53:19Z plertrood: I see.
2015-09-15T20:53:20Z mordocai: I'm not familiar enough with things to know what it is really doing though
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2015-09-15T20:55:08Z plertrood: So theoretically with QuickLisp is it possible to get your packages in an inconsistent state?
2015-09-15T20:55:29Z Shinmera: You can override locally by placing things into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2015-09-15T20:55:51Z Shinmera: (or by putting it into anything that's in ql:*local-project-directories*)
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2015-09-15T20:56:14Z Shinmera: So you can get inconsistencies that way I guess.
2015-09-15T20:57:00Z Shinmera: You could also change ASDF to look for systems in places that aren't managed by quicklisp and get an override that way.
2015-09-15T20:57:49Z mordocai: So yeah, my quick look at the qi thing looks like it is trying to emulate clojure projects/ ruby bundles maybe.
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2015-09-15T20:59:09Z plertrood: It looks interesting.
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2015-09-15T21:00:28Z plertrood: So anyway the reason I am asking all this is I seem to get errors no one else is, I suspect I have old/twisted packages..
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2015-09-15T21:00:50Z plertrood: Have just run update-all-dists and will see if that fixes things..
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2015-09-15T21:01:15Z jasom: plertrood: if quicklisp can find it *and* asdf can find it from the base configuration, asdf wins
2015-09-15T21:01:45Z jasom: also you can have multiple quicklisp installs (though that's of dubious use while there is only a single quicklisp distribution).
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2015-09-15T21:02:24Z Shinmera: There's at least one other dist out there, but it only adds packages that aren't in the QL dist.
2015-09-15T21:02:40Z plertrood: It does look like updating has fixed things..
2015-09-15T21:02:41Z Shinmera: *one other public
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2015-09-15T21:17:36Z plertrood: Ok, updating has fixed all my problem!
2015-09-15T21:18:03Z plertrood: I now need to go and apologise to everyone I accused of writing bugs...
2015-09-15T21:18:17Z plertrood: Many thanks for your help.
2015-09-15T21:19:15Z mordocai: Yeah... good rule of thumb: Always assume it is your fault until shown otherwise conclusively.
2015-09-15T21:19:19Z mordocai: Saves me a lot of time
2015-09-15T21:20:03Z plertrood: :-)
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2015-09-15T21:46:43Z WakeUp: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bdr` bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair bitwiggler
2015-09-15T21:46:43Z WakeUp: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T21:46:43Z WakeUp: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ebrasca ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron Ettore euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada
2015-09-15T21:46:45Z WakeUp: fiddlerwoaroof fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 fridim_ froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` Guest99584 guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse
2015-09-15T21:46:45Z WakeUp: ineiros Intensity ircbrowse isoraqathedh ivan\ j0ni j_king jackc- jackdaniel jasom jason_m jayne jcmdln jdtest2 jdz jeadre jeaye Jesin jewel jfe jlarocco_work jneruld joast jocuman joga john-mcaleely johs joshe josteink jozip jself jsnell_ jtz jtza8 Jubb justinmcp_ jxv kalloc kalzz kanru
2015-09-15T21:46:45Z WakeUp: Karl_Dscc karswell katco kbtr keen__________20 Khisanth killmaster kini kisom` kjak kjeldahl knobo-net kobain kraison kristof krrrcks kruhft Kruppe ktx l1x lancetw larme lea leafybasil lemoinem lepardo les LiamH lieven loke loke```` lokulin lonjil low-profile lpaste_ luis` lvh m_zr0 mac_ified mach
2015-09-15T21:46:47Z WakeUp: Mandus martinhath marvi mathrick matthewhill mea-culpa mearnsh mezzoemrys micro_ mikaelj minion misv_ mjanssen mobius-eng moei mood moop moredhel mprelude MrWoohoo mtd mtl_ munge musegarden1 Myk267 NaNDude narendraj9 Natch Neet newcup NhanH nicdev nightfly nisstyre noHue6 nopf norfumpit nydel nyef nyon
2015-09-15T21:46:47Z WakeUp: o`connor Ober Oddity oGMo Oladon oleo opc0de oskarth otwieracz ozzloy p_l|backup papachan Patzy pchrist pegu` phadthai phf phryk pillton PinealGlandOptic pinterface pjb PlasmaStar pok pootler Posterdati prince_jammys profess psy_ PuercoPop qr42 quasisan1 radioninja_work Raimondi rainbow_pwny ralt ramus RazWelles reb` redline6561
2015-09-15T21:46:48Z WakeUp: renard_ renopt replcated resttime rick-monster` rj-code rme roscoe_tw rotty rtoym russell-- rvchangue_ rvirding ryankarason s00pcan s1n4 SAL9000 salv0 samebchase sbryant scharan schoppenhauer scymtym scymtym__ sdothum Seeq sekrit sellout sepi setheus sfa sharkz sheilong SHODAN sigjuice SilentEcho sivoais ski SlashLife smokeink
2015-09-15T21:46:48Z WakeUp: smull snits someone spacebat specbot splittist srcerer ssake ssake_ sshirokov stepnem stokachu stux|RC-only Subfusc superjudge swflint sybs sytse taij33n Takumo tessier theBlackDragon ThePhoeron thomas tifa tkd tmh_ tokenrove tokik tomaw Tordek torpig trig-ger Trioxin tristero trn troydm tsp1 tstc Tuxedo
2015-09-15T21:46:50Z WakeUp: tylergoza Uptime vaitel vaporatorius varjag vedwin vert2 viaken victor_lowther vlatkoB vlnx voidlily vsync vsync- waaron wailord WakeUp Walex wemeetagain wglb`` whartung White_Flame whiteline Whymind wizzo wolf_mozart wyan Xach XachX xan_ Xof xristos yang yauz yeltzooo yeticry yorick yrdz z0d zacharias
2015-09-15T21:46:50Z WakeUp: zacts Zamuel zaquest zbigniew zerac Zhivago zickzackv Zotan zygentoma zymurgy zyoung |3b|
2015-09-15T21:46:51Z WakeUp left #lisp
2015-09-15T21:46:56Z DeadTrickster: ololo
2015-09-15T21:46:56Z abbe: oh man!
2015-09-15T21:47:04Z Cthulhux`: noobs.
2015-09-15T21:47:05Z nightfly: so much spam lately
2015-09-15T21:47:05Z Cthulhux`: :<
2015-09-15T21:47:20Z Posterdati: what the hell is this?
2015-09-15T21:47:23Z DeadTrickster: what was that?
2015-09-15T21:47:24Z phryk: if these idiots would at least make those bots entertaining…
2015-09-15T21:47:29Z epitron: That's the daily wakeup call
2015-09-15T21:47:31Z asedeno: srsly
2015-09-15T21:47:33Z jozip: What's up with that?
2015-09-15T21:47:39Z gnawrghz: lol
2015-09-15T21:47:40Z DeadTrickster: I like that
2015-09-15T21:47:43Z Zamuel: We need to wake up!
2015-09-15T21:47:48Z kraison quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2015-09-15T21:47:58Z phryk: wake up sheeple, jet fuel can't melt steel beams. :F
2015-09-15T21:48:17Z zygentoma: hm?
2015-09-15T21:48:19Z attila_lendvai: let us all amplify the spam...!
2015-09-15T21:48:25Z jozip: But I was just about to hit bed :<
2015-09-15T21:48:40Z DeadTrickster: jozip, why you want to hit the bed?
2015-09-15T21:48:52Z phryk: DeadTrickster: because the bed cheated on jozip.
2015-09-15T21:48:57Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-09-15T21:49:16Z phryk: I'm bed serious.
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2015-09-15T21:49:34Z Zamuel groans
2015-09-15T21:49:40Z DeadTrickster: that was bed mystic
2015-09-15T21:49:55Z DeadTrickster: bed myztic
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2015-09-15T21:51:06Z jozip: It is a bed lumpy
2015-09-15T21:51:20Z jozip: ...I don't even
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2015-09-15T21:54:45Z Subfusc: wake up call at 23:54 in the night
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2015-09-15T21:54:51Z Subfusc: yeah .... NO!
2015-09-15T21:56:34Z DeadTrickster: yep this is actually way mo amusing than /r/lisp
2015-09-15T21:56:55Z DeadTrickster:  /mo/more
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2015-09-15T22:13:32Z jneruld: wake up, eat shit
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2015-09-15T22:17:56Z kami: Hello.
2015-09-15T22:18:11Z kami: I just stumbled upon this: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/57984/loves-me-loves-me-not
2015-09-15T22:18:52Z kami: this is my solution: (setf r(+ 3(random 18)))(dotimes(n r)(format t"Loves me~[~; not~]~:[...~;~:[!~%<3~;.~%</3~]~]~%"(rem n 2)(eq n(1- r))(oddp n)))
2015-09-15T22:19:14Z kami: I would appreciate your help in making it shorter.
2015-09-15T22:20:03Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2015-09-15T22:21:10Z kami: But it's past midnight here and I have to go to bed.
2015-09-15T22:21:42Z kami hopes to find a drastically shorter solution early in the morning
2015-09-15T22:21:48Z kami: Good night.
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2015-09-15T22:28:37Z phf: kami: no need for temporary variable, since n in dotimes is evaluated only once
2015-09-15T22:28:59Z phf: oh wait nevermind!
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2015-09-15T22:30:37Z jasom: (dotimes(n #1=#.(+ 3(random 18)))(format t"Loves me~[~; not~]~:[...~;~:[!~%<3~;.~%</3~]~]~%"(rem n 2)(= n(1- #1#))(oddp n)))
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2015-09-15T22:31:00Z KeepSleeping: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler
2015-09-15T22:31:00Z KeepSleeping: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T22:31:01Z KeepSleeping: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron Ettore euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada fiddlerwoaroof
2015-09-15T22:31:02Z lispyone joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:31:02Z KeepSleeping: fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse ineiros Intensity
2015-09-15T22:31:08Z KeepSleeping left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:31:10Z chu: Nice, again.
2015-09-15T22:31:14Z Cthulhux`: lol. comcast.
2015-09-15T22:31:26Z Cthulhux`: i'd vote to ban *.comcast.net.
2015-09-15T22:32:35Z nyon quit (Quit: F...ix you, Emacs!)
2015-09-15T22:32:38Z KeepSleeping joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:32:39Z KeepSleeping: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler
2015-09-15T22:32:39Z KeepSleeping: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T22:32:40Z KeepSleeping: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron Ettore euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada fiddlerwoaroof
2015-09-15T22:32:41Z KeepSleeping: fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse ineiros Intensity
2015-09-15T22:32:48Z farhaven:  wtf
2015-09-15T22:32:51Z Cthulhux`: yup ... comcast.
2015-09-15T22:32:57Z pyon joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:33:06Z epitron: ...business
2015-09-15T22:33:16Z farhaven: there's a flag for channels that mutes users that are not authorized with nickserv
2015-09-15T22:33:21Z Cthulhux`: time to report some IP to their CR section
2015-09-15T22:33:22Z farhaven: maybe it makes sense here?
2015-09-15T22:33:29Z Cthulhux`: one customer less
2015-09-15T22:33:29Z Cthulhux`: :-)
2015-09-15T22:33:30Z abbe: +r
2015-09-15T22:33:32Z KeepSleeping: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler
2015-09-15T22:33:33Z KeepSleeping: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T22:33:33Z KeepSleeping: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron Ettore euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada fiddlerwoaroof
2015-09-15T22:33:34Z KeepSleeping: fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse ineiros Intensity
2015-09-15T22:33:52Z asedeno: Go away, KeepSleeping.
2015-09-15T22:33:55Z Davidbrcz: how does mute work ?
2015-09-15T22:34:09Z abbe: /ignore ... ?
2015-09-15T22:34:11Z Cthulhux`: i guess reporting 50.206.104.58 to comcast is a good first step. brb.
2015-09-15T22:34:14Z karswell` joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:34:22Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2015-09-15T22:34:45Z farhaven: Davidbrcz: if you're in a channel that has the flag set and are not authenticated with nickserv, and you type something, it won't end up in the channel
2015-09-15T22:34:53Z KeepSleeping: ok asedeno
2015-09-15T22:34:54Z farhaven: instead you will be told to log in and try again
2015-09-15T22:34:56Z KeepSleeping left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:35:09Z asedeno: Wow, it responds.
2015-09-15T22:35:18Z farhaven: could help in this case because it'd require the spammer to create a freenode account before doingt its thing
2015-09-15T22:35:35Z pyon is now known as nyon
2015-09-15T22:36:12Z KeepSleeping joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:36:14Z KeepSleeping: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler
2015-09-15T22:36:14Z KeepSleeping: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T22:36:15Z KeepSleeping: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron Ettore euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada fiddlerwoaroof
2015-09-15T22:36:16Z KeepSleeping: fikusz finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse ineiros Intensity
2015-09-15T22:36:17Z KeepSleeping: ircbrowse isoraqathedh ivan\ j0ni j_king jackc- jackdaniel jasom jason_m jayne jcmdln jdtest2 jdz jeadre jeaye Jesin jewel jfe jlarocco_work jneruld joast jocuman joga john-mcaleely johs joshe josteink jozip jself jsnell_ jtz Jubb justinmcp_ jxv kalloc kalzz kami kanru Karl_Dscc karswell`
2015-09-15T22:36:17Z KeepSleeping: katco kbtr keen__________20 KeepSleeping Khisanth killmaster kini kisom` kjak kjeldahl knobo-net kobain krrrcks kruhft Kruppe ktx l1x lancetw larme lea leafybasil lemoinem lepardo les LiamH lieven lispyone loke loke```` lokulin lonjil low-profile lpaste_ luis` lvh m_zr0 mac_ified mach Mandus martinhath
2015-09-15T22:36:18Z KeepSleeping: marvi mathrick matthewhill mea-culpa mearnsh mezzoemrys micro_ mikaelj minion misv_ mjanssen moei mood moop moredhel mprelude MrWoohoo mtd mtl_ munge musegarden1 Myk267 myztic NaNDude narendraj9 Natch Neet newcup NhanH nicdev nightfly nisstyre noHue6 nopf norfumpit nydel nyef nyon o`connor Ober
2015-09-15T22:36:19Z KeepSleeping: Oddity oGMo Oladon oleo_ opc0de oskarth otwieracz ozzloy p_l|backup papachan Patzy pchrist pegu` phadthai phf phryk pillton PinealGlandOptic pinterface pjb PlasmaStar pok pootler Posterdati prince_jammys profess psy_ PuercoPop qr42 quasisan1 radioninja_work Raimondi rainbow_pwny ralt ramus RazWelles reb` redline6561 remi`bd renard_
2015-09-15T22:36:20Z KeepSleeping: renopt replcated resttime rick-monster` rj-code rme roscoe_tw rotty rtoym russell-- rvchangue_ rvirding ryankarason s00pcan s1n4 SAL9000 salv0 samebchase sbryant scharan schoppenhauer scymtym scymtym__ sdothum Seeq sekrit sellout sepi setheus sfa sharkz sheilong SHODAN sigjuice SilentEcho sivoais ski SlashLife smokeink smull
2015-09-15T22:36:20Z KeepSleeping: snits someone spacebat specbot splittist srcerer ssake ssake_ sshirokov stokachu stux|RC-only Subfusc superjudge swflint sybs sytse taij33n Takumo tessier theBlackDragon ThePhoeron thomas tifa tkd tmh_ tokenrove tokik tomaw Tordek torpig trig-ger Trioxin tristero trn troydm tsp1 tstc Tuxedo Uptime vaitel
2015-09-15T22:36:21Z KeepSleeping: vaporatorius varjag vedwin vert2 viaken victor_lowther vlatkoB vlnx voidlily vsync vsync- waaron wailord Walex wemeetagain wglb`` whartung White_Flame whiteline Whymind wizzo wolf_mozart wyan Xach XachX xan_ Xof xristos yang yauz yeltzooo yeticry yorick yrdz z0d zacharias zacts Zamuel zaquest zbigniew
2015-09-15T22:36:22Z KeepSleeping: zerac Zhivago zickzackv Zotan zygentoma zymurgy zyoung |3b|
2015-09-15T22:36:27Z kobain: ¿?
2015-09-15T22:36:42Z jneruld: mother fuck
2015-09-15T22:36:44Z KeepSleeping: hi
2015-09-15T22:36:45Z troydm: dafuq
2015-09-15T22:36:45Z NhanH: we have to wake up earlier
2015-09-15T22:36:48Z Cthulhux`: actually, it makes me somewhat happy that spammers find their way here.
2015-09-15T22:36:50Z NhanH: now we have to keep sleeping?
2015-09-15T22:37:04Z Cthulhux`: meaning lisp is important enough.
2015-09-15T22:37:12Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-09-15T22:37:13Z KeepSleeping quit
2015-09-15T22:37:16Z jneruld: lisp is always important enough
2015-09-15T22:37:25Z sjl joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:37:28Z Cthulhux`: jneruld, not to today's curricula.
2015-09-15T22:38:39Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:38:57Z JuanDaugherty: "lexer for cl-yacc" didn't turn up much
2015-09-15T22:39:26Z White_Flame: I wouldn't be surprised if the spambot just scans all channels for greater than some threshold of users worth bothering
2015-09-15T22:39:33Z White_Flame: so nothing personal towards Lisp
2015-09-15T22:39:37Z KeepSleeping joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:39:47Z KeepSleeping left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:39:52Z epitron: hahah
2015-09-15T22:40:05Z epitron: KeepSleeping doesn't even bother anymore
2015-09-15T22:40:12Z oGMo: are any freenode staff still alive? ;P
2015-09-15T22:40:15Z fluter: We don't have op in #lisp?
2015-09-15T22:40:16Z jfe: there seem to be a number of unit test frameworks available on cliki.net. can anyone here offer a recommendation?
2015-09-15T22:41:47Z oGMo: jfe: the most "normal"+maintained is fiveam afaik
2015-09-15T22:42:11Z epitron: it's okay, the spammer has given up
2015-09-15T22:42:13Z oGMo: i wrote CheckL and i use it from time to time
2015-09-15T22:42:35Z KeepSleeping joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:42:39Z fluter: this appears about everyday
2015-09-15T22:42:56Z fluter: I doubt he wil give up
2015-09-15T22:43:06Z KeepSleeping: lol hey
2015-09-15T22:43:16Z Zamuel: Is there a CLISP windows 64 bit? Or am I misinterpreting something here?
2015-09-15T22:43:35Z jfe: oGMo: oh cool. thanks.
2015-09-15T22:43:38Z Ettore quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2015-09-15T22:43:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:44:06Z dwchandler: fiveam seems like the best conservative choice. anyone have opinions on prove?
2015-09-15T22:44:25Z KeepSleeping: fe[nl]ix p_l _8hzp __main__ _death _sjs ``Erik `jose aap abbe add^_ AeroNotix aeth aftershave ahungry alchemis7 alex6407_ alms_clozure anachrome angavrilov AntiSpamMeta antoszka anunnaki arpunk arrsim asedeno atgnag attila_lendvai axion backupthrick balle bcoburn bege benaiah bgs100 Bicyclidine Bike billstclair BitPuffin|osx bitwiggler
2015-09-15T22:44:25Z KeepSleeping: bizarrefish bjorkintosh bobbysmith007 brandonz briantrice brucem c74d3 capitaomorte cartwright cataska ccl-logbot CEnnis91 christoph_debian chu cibs ck_ clog clop cmatei cmbntr_ codeitagile cods CodyReichert Colleen copec cpt_nemo CrazyEddy cross Cthulhux` cyraxjoe d4gg4d daimrod` dan64 danlentz DANtheBE- Davidbrcz DeadTrickster decent Denommus DGASAU
2015-09-15T22:44:26Z KeepSleeping: diginet dim djh djinni` dlowe dmiles_akf dougk_ drdo drewc drmeister dryt dsp_ dwchandler dxtr eagleflo eak_ easye ec\ echo-area ecraven edran_ eli emaczen eMBee emma emuxius EnergyCoffee epitron euphoriaa EvW EXID123 Faed faheem__ failproofshark fantazo farhaven felideon ferada fiddlerwoaroof fikusz
2015-09-15T22:44:27Z KeepSleeping: finnrobi_ Firedancer fitzsim fleaswallow Fleurety flip214 fluter foom frankS2 froggey ft funnel gabot gendl gensym gernika ggherdov GGMethos gigetoo gko gnawrghz gniourf Grue` guiloooo gwyon_ gz H4ns haasn harish HDurer HDurer_ heurist honkfestival housel hratsimihah hyoyoung impulse ineiros Intensity ircbrowse
2015-09-15T22:44:28Z KeepSleeping: isoraqathedh ivan\ j0ni j_king jackc- jackdaniel jasom jason_m jcmdln jdtest2 jdz jeadre jeaye Jesin jewel jfe jlarocco_work jneruld joast jocuman joga john-mcaleely johs joshe josteink jozip jself jsnell_ jtz JuanDaugherty Jubb justinmcp_ jxv kalloc kalzz kami kanru Karl_Dscc karswell` katco
2015-09-15T22:44:28Z KeepSleeping: kbtr keen__________20 KeepSleeping Khisanth killmaster kini kisom` kjak kjeldahl knobo-net kobain krrrcks kruhft Kruppe ktx l1x lancetw larme lea leafybasil lemoinem lepardo les LiamH lieven lispyone loke loke```` lokulin lonjil low-profile lpaste_ luis` lvh m_zr0 mac_ified mach Mandus martinhath marvi
2015-09-15T22:44:29Z KeepSleeping: mathrick matthewhill mea-culpa mearnsh mezzoemrys micro_ mikaelj minion misv_ mjanssen moei mood moop moredhel mprelude MrWoohoo mtd mtl_ munge musegarden1 Myk267 myztic NaNDude narendraj9 Natch Neet newcup NhanH nicdev nightfly nisstyre noHue6 nopf norfumpit nydel nyef nyon o`connor Ober Oddity
2015-09-15T22:44:30Z KeepSleeping: oGMo Oladon oleo_ opc0de oskarth otwieracz ozzloy p_l|backup papachan Patzy pchrist pegu` phadthai phf phryk pillton PinealGlandOptic pinterface pjb PlasmaStar pok pootler Posterdati prince_jammys profess psy_ PuercoPop qr42 quasisan1 quazimodo radioninja_work Raimondi rainbow_pwny ralt ramus RazWelles reb` redline6561 remi`bd renard_
2015-09-15T22:44:31Z KeepSleeping: renopt replcated resttime rick-monster` rj-code rme roscoe_tw rotty rtoym russell-- rvchangue_ rvirding ryankarason s00pcan s1n4 SAL9000 salv0 samebchase sbryant scharan schoppenhauer scymtym scymtym__ sdothum Seeq sellout sepi setheus sfa sharkz sheilong SHODAN sigjuice SilentEcho sivoais sjl ski SlashLife smokeink smull
2015-09-15T22:44:31Z KeepSleeping: snits someone spacebat specbot splittist srcerer ssake ssake_ sshirokov stokachu stux|RC-only Subfusc superjudge swflint sybs sytse taij33n Takumo tessier theBlackDragon ThePhoeron tifa tkd tmh_ tokenrove tokik Tordek torpig trig-ger Trioxin tristero trn troydm tsp1 tstc Tuxedo Uptime vaitel vaporatorius varjag
2015-09-15T22:44:32Z KeepSleeping: vedwin vert2 viaken victor_lowther vlatkoB vlnx vsync vsync- waaron wailord Walex wemeetagain wglb`` whartung White_Flame whiteline Whymind wizzo wolf_mozart wyan Xach XachX xan_ Xof xristos yang yauz yeltzooo yeticry yorick yrdz z0d zacharias zacts Zamuel zaquest zbigniew zerac Zhivago zickzackv
2015-09-15T22:44:33Z fluter: some one ban KeepSleeping !!
2015-09-15T22:44:33Z KeepSleeping: Zotan zygentoma zymurgy zyoung |3b|
2015-09-15T22:44:37Z KeepSleeping left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:44:39Z leafybasil: What is this shit.
2015-09-15T22:44:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2015-09-15T22:44:43Z joshe: ugh
2015-09-15T22:44:43Z yorick left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:44:45Z joshe left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:44:49Z fluter: where is op?
2015-09-15T22:44:50Z epitron: NOT GIVEN UP
2015-09-15T22:44:58Z SlashLife: leafybasil: Chobly didn't take his meds. Just ignore.
2015-09-15T22:45:04Z jfe: an op would be helpful.
2015-09-15T22:45:20Z asedeno: Looks like we just got one, yes?
2015-09-15T22:45:22Z dwchandler: jfe: we just got one
2015-09-15T22:45:23Z jose11 joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:45:26Z dwchandler: jinx
2015-09-15T22:45:27Z Posterdati: yes purge him/it
2015-09-15T22:45:37Z jasom: fwiw you can set umode +R and you will ignore all unregistered users
2015-09-15T22:45:59Z fluter: p_l: drewc Zhivago
2015-09-15T22:46:04Z fluter: wake up
2015-09-15T22:46:19Z jose11 left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:46:21Z jfe: jasom: helpful, thank you.
2015-09-15T22:46:25Z Xach: fluter: the person is not online any more
2015-09-15T22:46:42Z fluter: but you can put him in ban list
2015-09-15T22:46:44Z jasom: Xach: they have quit and done it again 3 times now
2015-09-15T22:47:17Z ooppe joined #lisp
2015-09-15T22:47:28Z dwchandler: note "static" in ~Keep@50-206-104-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net
2015-09-15T22:47:38Z JuanDaugherty: so lexer apparently
2015-09-15T22:47:42Z jasom: kami: I got it the same length as you without using format :)
2015-09-15T22:48:17Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BSK
2015-09-15T22:48:54Z jasom: oops, was missing a newline before </3
2015-09-15T22:49:08Z ooppe left #lisp
2015-09-15T22:49:09Z jasom: so one charater longer
2015-09-15T22:51:28Z phf: jasom: it's supposed to start with loves me, but i'm getting loves me not on yours
2015-09-15T22:51:54Z jasom: phf: thanks, that saves a character s/evenp/oddp
2015-09-15T22:52:47Z phf: (also need to transpose the hearts)
2015-09-15T22:53:09Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*canaima@190.200.20.* croOoOoak!*@* tychoish!*@* *!*Frog@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com
2015-09-15T22:53:45Z Xach has set mode +b *!*@50-206-104-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net
2015-09-15T22:54:14Z jasom: phf: annotated with fixed version
2015-09-15T22:54:26Z jcmdln quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2015-09-15T22:54:59Z matthewhill quit (Quit: Lingo: www.lingoirc.com)
2015-09-15T22:58:35Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2015-09-15T23:01:35Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2015-09-15T23:02:21Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-09-15T23:04:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2015-09-15T23:07:23Z jasom: lisp really loses with no short string-concatenation operator
2015-09-15T23:07:35Z jasom: (format t"~@{~A~}"...) is the shortest I know of
2015-09-15T23:08:42Z jasom: also if # were a terminating macro-character, that would save a few
2015-09-15T23:09:07Z `jose quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2015-09-15T23:10:55Z nyon quit (Quit: F...ix you, Emacs!)
2015-09-15T23:11:39Z pyon joined #lisp
2015-09-15T23:13:43Z jasom: (dotimes(n #1=#.(+ 3(random 18)))(format t"Loves me~[~; not~]~:[...~;~%<~:[!~;./~]3~]~%"(rem n 2)(= n(1- #1#))(oddp n))) <-- 120 bytes
2015-09-15T23:13:44Z _death: (defun || (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings))
2015-09-15T23:14:06Z jasom: _death: no help in code-golf where you need concat maybe twice
2015-09-15T23:14:07Z _death: lisp is now a winner
2015-09-15T23:14:52Z phf: _death: we're playing in the spirit of their rules, of course the whole exercise is meaningless, if i can just use my own stdlib
2015-09-15T23:14:54Z _death: put it in your .sbclrc
2015-09-15T23:15:33Z dwchandler: (ql:quickload "loveme")
2015-09-15T23:15:35Z dwchandler: total winner
2015-09-15T23:18:02Z voidlily joined #lisp
2015-09-15T23:18:57Z voidlily quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2015-09-15T23:18:58Z ziocroc joined #lisp
2015-09-15T23:19:17Z pillton claps his hands after reading jasom's (dotimes ...) form.
2015-09-15T23:19:30Z voidlily joined #lisp
2015-09-15T23:23:07Z voidlily quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2015-09-15T23:23:16Z _death: oh well, wasn't aware of the context.. meanwhile, sbcl takes its time compiling a 3600-line function (lapack)
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2015-09-15T23:27:55Z jasom: pillton: kami (dotimes(n #1=#.(+ 3(random 18)))(format t"Loves me~:[~; not~]~[...~;~%<~:[!~;./~]3~]~%"(oddp n)(- #1# n)(oddp n))) <-- 115 bytes
2015-09-15T23:28:46Z Bicyclidine: #2=(oddp n)(- #1# n)#2#
2015-09-15T23:29:06Z Bicyclidine: i think that's two whole characters!
2015-09-15T23:29:07Z jasom: yeah, just saw that Bicyclidine; I couldn't use it before because it was after a symbol not a string
2015-09-15T23:29:25Z jasom: so it was a wash
2015-09-15T23:29:33Z Bicyclidine: man, that format string is horrifying.
2015-09-15T23:29:53Z _death: better than print-xapping :)
2015-09-15T23:29:56Z jasom: Like how I use ~[ foo~] for an "If argument is zero"
2015-09-15T23:33:29Z phf: i've got a 107 bytes, non portable version
2015-09-15T23:33:30Z phf: (format t"~{Loves me~[~; not~]~#[~:*~[!~%<3~;.~%</3~]~:;...~]~%~}"(subseq'#1=(0 1 . #1#)0(+ 3(random 18))))
2015-09-15T23:34:08Z phf: ccl does a bounds check on that sequence, where's cmucl doesn't
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2015-09-15T23:36:12Z jasom: nice
2015-09-15T23:38:07Z pillton: jasom: You should try this: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/30/refactoring-with-lz77-compilation-is-compression/
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2015-09-15T23:51:42Z warweasle: Emacs lisp can do network programming. Of course it can. This would have saved me a ton of work a year ago...Live and learn.
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2015-09-16T00:01:29Z jasom: phf: just for kicks here's a portable version (format t"~{Loves me~[~; not~]~#[~:*~[!~%<3~;.~%</3~]~:;...~]~%~}"(do((i -2 (1+ i))(r()(append r`(,(mod i 2)))))((> i(random 18))r)))
2015-09-16T00:01:44Z jasom: It's actually shorter with loop ... collect, but this is harder to read
2015-09-16T00:03:50Z jasom: The loop version is 117 which is 4 bytes largest than best with the loop around the format
2015-09-16T00:04:25Z phf: hah it also has a whole bunch of parenthesis for that extra "ya'll doing lisp" feel
2015-09-16T00:04:45Z jasom: (format t"~{Loves me~[~; not~]~#[~:*~[!~%<3~;.~%</3~]~:;...~]~%~}"(loop for i from -2 to(random 18)collect(mod i 2))) <-- loop version
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2015-09-16T00:05:52Z jasom: If only it were fromat I could shave a few characters off
2015-09-16T00:06:53Z jasom: (format t"~{Loves me~[~; not~]~#[~:*~%<~[!3~;./3~]~:;...~]~%~}"(loop for i from -2 to(random 18)collect(mod i 2)))<-- 1 character larger than loop outside of format, also makes non-portrable one 3 characters smaller
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2015-09-16T00:07:58Z jasom: (format t"~{Loves me~[~; not~]~#[~:*~%<~[!~;./~]3~:;...~]~%~}"(subseq'#1=(0 1 . #1#)0(+ 3(random 18)))) <-- at 103 bytes smallest non-portable implementation
2015-09-16T00:08:44Z phf: oh that makes sense
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2015-09-16T00:09:45Z phf: no, wait, that shouldn't work
2015-09-16T00:09:59Z jasom: why not?
2015-09-16T00:10:09Z phf: that one puts . and ! inside the heart
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2015-09-16T00:10:33Z phf: Loves me
2015-09-16T00:10:33Z phf: <!3
2015-09-16T00:10:38Z jasom: oops
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2015-09-16T00:11:17Z jasom: what does the ! do normally?
2015-09-16T00:11:53Z phf: supposed to be loves me! <3 or loves me not. </3
2015-09-16T00:12:02Z jasom: ah
2015-09-16T00:12:13Z jasom: I missed that :(
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2015-09-16T00:12:16Z phf: not sure if extra conditional required will make it shorter
2015-09-16T00:12:36Z phf: oh taking 3 out of conditional
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2015-09-16T00:13:17Z phf: saves one whole character :>
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2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: mezzoemrys arpunk echo-area jxv jdtest2 Karl_Dscc rtoym kobain Jesin zygentoma sheilong nyef s00pcan mac_ified jason_m cpt_nemo Xof sdothum keen__________20 nicdev dougk_ vaporatorius fitzsim Walex mprelude pchrist harish smull schoppenhauer Mandus jewel varjag Intensity impulse replcated wolf_mozart lokulin smokeink swflint brucem arrsim PuercoPop SAL9000 gko ktx foom musegarden1 wglb`` waaron MrWoohoo _sjs @Xach cmatei felideon m_zr0 john-mcaleely
2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: resttime Denommus krrrcks aftershave radioninja_work psy_ guiloooo yeticry vaitel josteink loke _8hzp kanru Patzy SlashLife PinealGlandOptic Raimondi tifa CEnnis91 Myk267 lemoinem salv0 wailord PlasmaStar phryk DANtheBE- misv_ sepi scymtym__ abbe ssake_ ssake yrdz bgs100 setheus Uptime angavrilov tmh_ pjb atgnag wemeetagain Khisanth kalzz ralt pegu` Grue` sharkz gnawrghz djinni` EXID123 dmiles_akf jdz bcoburn Cthulhux` Bike stux|RC-only pootler gz
2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: moredhel vlnx scharan Fleurety RazWelles rick-monster` fiddlerwoaroof White_Flame DeadTrickster gniourf dan64 benaiah ineiros jozip decent eli Natch srcerer xristos sfa zaquest tristero roscoe_tw failproofshark brandonz gabot kbtr loke```` kisom` xan_ HDurer_ jackc- viaken lvh lea bizarrefish tokik troydm jeaye jlarocco_work cyraxjoe munge phf mtl_ tsp1 Jubb emuxius vedwin ahungry prince_jammys taij33n SilentEcho sigjuice sytse c74d3 Seeq gigetoo Oladon
2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: marvi larme balle kruhft euphoriaa quasisan1 CodyReichert lieven easye redline6561 noHue6 vsync- nisstyre epitron nightfly jtz j_king ec\ Tuxedo anachrome justinmcp_ opc0de alex6407_ dwchandler backupthrick ``Erik gwyon_ j0ni rotty knobo-net daimrod` anunnaki eak_ SHODAN jackdaniel cmbntr_ oskarth Zotan pillton antoszka NaNDude add^_ kalloc zerac bobbysmith007 sekrit o`connor bjorkintosh haasn dryt pinterface jneruld someone les tstc jayne frankS2
2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: killmaster Ober chu theBlackDragon AntiSpamMeta ivan\ yang otwieracz bitwiggler sbryant minion specbot clop Kruppe joast alchemis7 mach christoph_debian phadthai jsnell_ finnrobi_ kini cibs tomaw fikusz gernika honkfestival whartung flip214 z0d katco bege cross cods torpig dsp_ sellout zickzackv tokenrove yauz s1n4 hyoyoung djh rj-code yeltzooo renard_ stokachu p_l|backup lpaste_ sshirokov eagleflo oGMo thomas drdo mood micro_ @p_l Colleen H4ns ecraven
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2015-09-16T00:24:44Z names: froggey mtd l1x low-profile gensym Neet tkd superjudge jasom russell-- CrazyEddy moop ski Subfusc lancetw ircbrowse dim aeth qr42 snits trn farhaven tessier ozzloy samebchase hratsimihah ggherdov nopf ryankarason kjeldahl axion zbigniew wizzo Oddity Faed gendl norfumpit dxtr asedeno
2015-09-16T00:24:44Z sinisalo.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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2015-09-16T01:27:13Z Xach: Has anyone plugged sbcl's ed into slime so it just opens in another buffer?
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2015-09-16T01:28:26Z _death: Xach: I did it once
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2015-09-16T01:35:35Z _death: Xach: seems nowadays you can just swank:ed-in-emacs.. too bad it doesn't return non-nil.. so you need to do (push (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'swank:ed-in-emacs args) t) *ed-functions*)
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2015-09-16T01:38:17Z Xach: cool
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2015-09-16T02:52:46Z loke: Good morning Lisp
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2015-09-16T02:53:05Z drmeister: Hello everyone
2015-09-16T02:53:54Z loke: Anyone can suggest a good FORMAT string to do this in one line?
2015-09-16T02:53:55Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155258
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2015-09-16T02:57:53Z loke: hello drmeister
2015-09-16T02:58:03Z loke: Doktor Mäster
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2015-09-16T03:08:05Z Bike: loke: (format nil "~:[http://localhost:8000/~*~;~:*~a~:[/~;~]~]~?" *external-listen-address* (and *external-listen-address* (char= (aref *external-listen-address* (1- (length *external-listen-address*))) #\/) suffix-format suffix-args)
2015-09-16T03:08:16Z Bike: i'd rather use the code, honestly.
2015-09-16T03:08:32Z loke: Bike: wow
2015-09-16T03:08:39Z loke: Looking at that, I tend to agree with you. :-)
2015-09-16T03:08:48Z Bike: Actually, what I'd rather do is temporarily bind e-l-a.
2015-09-16T03:08:56Z loke: It's cool and all now, but when I come back to that one some time later I'll be baffled :-)
2015-09-16T03:09:21Z drmeister: Hello loke
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2015-09-16T03:09:52Z Bike: like... (let ((*external-listen-address* (if *external-listen-address* (normalize *external-listen-address*) "http://localhost:8000/"))) (format nil "~a~?" *external-listen-address* suffix-format suffix-args))
2015-09-16T03:09:58Z Bike: where normalize throws on the trailing slash.
2015-09-16T03:10:07Z loke: Bike: Yeah. I guessl I could also enforce that e-l-a is always set and always should end with /.
2015-09-16T03:10:16Z Bike: or that.
2015-09-16T03:10:39Z loke: The value is read from the configuration file on system startup, so I could do the normalisation there.
2015-09-16T03:11:23Z Bike: thus the perennial rule for using format: don't get smart
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2015-09-16T03:13:10Z loke: I do kinda like this one that I use on the Clojurescript (client side, there is a cl-format available) that pjb helped me with. It formats the notification bar that says who (if any) users are currentyl typing in the chat window:
2015-09-16T03:13:12Z loke: "~1{~#[none~;~a~;~a and ~a~:;~@{~#[~;and ~]~a~^, ~}~]~:} ~:*~1{~#[are~;is~:;are~]~:} typing"
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2015-09-16T03:13:46Z loke: I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it did clean up the code a lot.
2015-09-16T03:15:58Z Bike: ~1{ is new to me. that's kinda clever.
2015-09-16T03:16:12Z drmeister: What's ~1{ ?
2015-09-16T03:16:31Z drmeister: Is that a CL FORMAT control?
2015-09-16T03:16:42Z Bike: yeah.
2015-09-16T03:17:00Z Bike: apparently ~{ with a numeric argument limits the number of iterations.
2015-09-16T03:17:19Z Bike: so ~1{...~} either has a one element list or nil.
2015-09-16T03:17:50Z Bike: i got no fucking clue on the rest.
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2015-09-16T03:25:22Z loke: Bike: Yeah :-)
2015-09-16T03:25:32Z loke: Me neither.
2015-09-16T03:26:12Z Bike: i mean, i could look it up, but the macroexpansion is like fifty lines
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2015-09-16T03:50:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-16T03:51:28Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-09-16T03:51:59Z drmeister: I think I found the problem I've been having with my stacks using the MPS GC.
2015-09-16T03:52:09Z beach: Great!
2015-09-16T03:52:42Z drmeister: If I allocate a frame when the stack is exactly 4096 bytes in size - it crashes due to an assertion failure.
2015-09-16T03:53:00Z beach: An ordinary stack frame?
2015-09-16T03:53:14Z drmeister: Yup.
2015-09-16T03:53:58Z beach: And you allocate a stack frame by doing what?  PUSH?
2015-09-16T03:54:21Z drmeister: I believe there is a subtle, nasty bug in the MPS "Stack No Checking" memory pool http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/pool/snc.html
2015-09-16T03:54:57Z drmeister: You call mps_ap_frame_push(...) and then you request memory on the stack.
2015-09-16T03:55:03Z drmeister: 4096 is the size of a memory page
2015-09-16T03:55:08Z Bike: maybe it's a known bug, given the deprecation
2015-09-16T03:55:21Z nyef: At least there should be an easy workaround, though, right?
2015-09-16T03:55:44Z drmeister: I suspect that when it flips at the boundary of one page to another, right on the boundary that there is a problem.
2015-09-16T03:56:15Z drmeister: Yes, so I check the allocations and if they land right on 4096 I bump the allocation request by one word.
2015-09-16T03:56:23Z drmeister: Then it sails through the problem area.
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2015-09-16T03:59:52Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to finding the problem!
2015-09-16T03:59:54Z drmeister: For the first time in several months I compile-file'd my first file using the MPS GC
2015-09-16T04:00:20Z drmeister: Thanks.
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2015-09-16T04:00:49Z mezzoemrys: I'm attempting to concatenate "^" to a string, such as "key", then use that to test with ppcre scan to see if a string begins with a phrase like "key", but I keep getting a compile time type error. What am I missing here?
2015-09-16T04:01:22Z Bike: what is the error?
2015-09-16T04:01:31Z mezzoemrys: I get the error during the concatenation step, but I'm not sure why, since I should just be concatenating two strings
2015-09-16T04:02:07Z beach: clhs concatenate
2015-09-16T04:02:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2015-09-16T04:02:21Z Zhivago: Read the error message.
2015-09-16T04:02:32Z mezzoemrys: error message isn't very helpfun
2015-09-16T04:02:47Z Zhivago: What ... does ... it ... say?
2015-09-16T04:02:52Z mezzoemrys: aha, i forgot to 'string
2015-09-16T04:02:55Z mezzoemrys: (SB-C::%COMPILE-TIME-TYPE-ERROR ("^") (OR CONS SYMBOL SB-KERNEL:INSTANCE) #<unavailable argument> ((CONCATENATE #1="^" "!hanabi-players") #1#))
2015-09-16T04:03:08Z Zhivago: Well, that error message was helpful.
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2015-09-16T04:03:25Z Zhivago: It says that you're providing a string where it expects a list, symbol, or instance.
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2015-09-16T04:03:52Z beach is surprised that for once he was able to guess what the problem was.
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2015-09-16T04:07:54Z beach: drmeister: What are you using that kind of pool for?
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2015-09-16T04:08:35Z nickofferman: hey people is it safe to talk about sex here?
2015-09-16T04:09:12Z drmeister: From C++ I need to evaluate arguments and accumulate them before I apply them to a function.  I put the evaluated arguments in frames on this stack.
2015-09-16T04:09:39Z drmeister: There is no way in C++ to programmatically set up a function call.
2015-09-16T04:09:46Z beach: drmeister: Why aren't they on the run-time stack as usual?
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2015-09-16T04:10:45Z drmeister: There's no safe way to dynamically create space in a stack frame.   __builtin_alloca burned me bad.
2015-09-16T04:11:02Z beach: Hmm.  OK.
2015-09-16T04:11:11Z Bike: i'd suggest looking at how libjit does it, but GNU's C code is unreadable
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2015-09-16T04:11:28Z nickofferman: what about safe sex with 16 year old prostitutes?
2015-09-16T04:11:39Z beach: drmeister: Doesn't C++ allow dynamic allocation, like { int temp[n]; ...}?
2015-09-16T04:11:58Z drmeister: I couldn't get variable length arrays to work properly for me.
2015-09-16T04:12:35Z beach: They are not variable length.  They are just allocated dynamically.
2015-09-16T04:12:44Z drmeister: I had trouble with both variable length arrays (non standard in C++) and builtin_alloca (also non-standard).
2015-09-16T04:13:05Z Bike: beach: C calls them "variable length arrays".
2015-09-16T04:13:18Z beach: Bike: Oh.  OK.  :(  Thanks.
2015-09-16T04:13:20Z drmeister: Right - I couldn't get them to work in the various use cases I had - they were unreliable.
2015-09-16T04:13:33Z Bike: they made them optional in C11. fuckers.
2015-09-16T04:14:14Z beach: Weren't they in a previous C standard?
2015-09-16T04:14:19Z drmeister: In the end I decided to implement a second stack on the side just for this purpose.  It's much cleaner that way.   The MPS has a memory pool that fits this problem perfectly.
2015-09-16T04:14:20Z Bike: C99, yeah.
2015-09-16T04:14:24Z Bike: i have no idea about C++.
2015-09-16T04:14:28Z beach: Wow.
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2015-09-16T04:15:15Z drmeister: They are implemented in g++ and clang - but they proved unreliable - or I couldn't get them to work.
2015-09-16T04:15:15Z Bike: in any case, C/C++ certainly don't let you access the previous stack frame from a called function, so i'd imagine that's where the problem is. using an MPS stack is probably a good idea, but the fact it's deprecated kind of blows.
2015-09-16T04:15:36Z drmeister: It's not depreciated - not according to the MPS guys.
2015-09-16T04:15:53Z Bike: it says it's deprecated right on the page you linked. if they undeprecated it they should fix the docs...
2015-09-16T04:15:54Z Zhivago: VLAs with auto storage may use heap allocation anyhow, so ymmv. :)
2015-09-16T04:16:02Z Bike: good piont.
2015-09-16T04:16:04Z drmeister: It just wasn't used by anyone they know so they said it was depreciated in the docs.
2015-09-16T04:16:37Z rme: asm.  it's the only way to be sure.
2015-09-16T04:16:38Z drmeister: But they told me they thought it was fine for me to use it.  So it has a little bug in it - it'll be fixed now.
2015-09-16T04:17:40Z drmeister: They wrote it years ago for a Postscript implementation that never went anywhere.
2015-09-16T04:18:01Z Bike: i see.
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2015-09-16T04:18:49Z drmeister: And I've made millions of push/allocate/pop's with it - so I've put it through it's paces and discovered one small but nasty problem.
2015-09-16T04:18:57Z drmeister: its
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2015-09-16T04:20:04Z drmeister: Boehm on the other hand has no way to doing stack-like allocation - so I allocate heap-like frames and release them in a stack like manner.
2015-09-16T04:20:35Z drmeister: MPS(n+1) Boehm(m+0)
2015-09-16T04:22:49Z beach: What does that mean?
2015-09-16T04:22:54Z drmeister: I set up the frames on the MPS stack to look like function calls on the C++ stack.  Then I hacked the va_list structure so that it can iterate over the arguments on the MPS stack just like it iterates over function arguments on the C++ stack.
2015-09-16T04:23:32Z drmeister: That means +1 points for MPS and +0 points for Boehm.  I forget what n and m are at this point.
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2015-09-16T05:05:25Z pjb: jasom: that's strange, I have it as short as in C programs: (strcat "abc" "def") vs. strcat("abc","def");
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2015-09-16T05:06:04Z pjb: jasom: sometimes, I even have it shorter; (scat "a" "b").
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2015-09-16T05:06:41Z Zhivago: Well, it would be strcpy(x, "abc"); strcat(x, "def"); in C.
2015-09-16T05:09:29Z pjb: :-)
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2015-09-16T05:19:49Z drmeister: Dammit, am I going nuts?
2015-09-16T05:19:57Z warweasle: drmeister: Yes.
2015-09-16T05:20:06Z drmeister: This should check if a value is some multiple of 4096 shouldn't it?
2015-09-16T05:20:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ULH4J3j9/
2015-09-16T05:20:27Z drmeister: Because it's still crashing and the stack total size is always a multiple of 4096 when it crashes.
2015-09-16T05:20:59Z drmeister: Unless there is some other mechanism that puts the stack size at 4096xN the above should work shouldn't it?
2015-09-16T05:21:05Z Zhivago: What are the types involved?
2015-09-16T05:21:12Z drmeister: size_t
2015-09-16T05:21:18Z drmeister: unsigned 8 byte words
2015-09-16T05:21:31Z drmeister: positive integers.
2015-09-16T05:21:43Z drmeister: Aligned to 8 bytes
2015-09-16T05:21:45Z drmeister: dammit
2015-09-16T05:22:08Z Zhivago: Your printf should use %zu in that case.
2015-09-16T05:22:11Z drmeister: I want  a test if (this->_TotalSize+headerAndFrameSize) == 4096xN
2015-09-16T05:22:30Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-09-16T05:22:56Z warweasle: drmeister: Wrong property?
2015-09-16T05:22:58Z Bike: Hey, I search replaced a billion of those in clasp last year, don't keep doing it :(
2015-09-16T05:23:30Z Zhivago: That code looks correct to me otherwise, but you could try using % instead.
2015-09-16T05:24:02Z drmeister: It's too late - I should use %  modulo
2015-09-16T05:24:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8LB3XCZd/
2015-09-16T05:24:28Z Zhivago: Note that % is the remainder operator, rather than modulo.
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2015-09-16T05:24:40Z Zhivago: But they should be equivalent for non-negative values.
2015-09-16T05:25:28Z Zhivago: Are you sure that both types involved in the addition are size_t?
2015-09-16T05:25:38Z drmeister: Zhivago: It's what I always used for modulo - should I use something else?
2015-09-16T05:25:47Z drmeister: Let me check
2015-09-16T05:26:03Z drmeister:       size_t _TotalSize;
2015-09-16T05:26:29Z drmeister: You got me there:     uintptr_t headerAndFrameSize = FRAME_HEADER_SIZE + frameSize;
2015-09-16T05:26:43Z drmeister: But that's equivalent to size_t isn't it?
2015-09-16T05:26:50Z Zhivago: Not necessarily.
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2015-09-16T05:27:07Z Zhivago: size_t just needs to be able to represent the largest possible object, which might just be 64k, iirc.
2015-09-16T05:27:16Z drmeister: No matter, I changed it.
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2015-09-16T05:27:23Z Zhivago: uintptr_t needs to be able to represent each position in the address space.
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2015-09-16T05:28:54Z drmeister: Final form?:
2015-09-16T05:28:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bUjEJiH4/
2015-09-16T05:30:18Z Zhivago: I don't see anything wrong with that (other than the spacing and redundant parentheses) :)
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2015-09-16T05:32:36Z aeth: In case someone isn't aware of this yet, here's some documentation for lispm. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
2015-09-16T05:32:39Z Ober: cmucl loads ql fine, just is never able to find any systems by name on either system-apropos or quickload
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2015-09-16T05:34:09Z drmeister: Sh*t - ok, this hack won't work.
2015-09-16T05:34:46Z drmeister: MPS pads pages that don't perfectly fit the allocations and I can't know how many bytes are padded.
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2015-09-16T05:35:23Z drmeister: So I can catch when it hits 4096 but I can't catch 8192
2015-09-16T05:35:26Z Zhivago: Ah, that would explain it.
2015-09-16T05:35:29Z drmeister: Or any higher multiple
2015-09-16T05:35:44Z drmeister: It was a horrible hack anyway.  Better that it dies here.
2015-09-16T05:35:44Z Zhivago: How about making your pages always perfectly fit? :)
2015-09-16T05:35:56Z drmeister: That's tough to do in this case.
2015-09-16T05:36:13Z Bike: time to yell until the bug is actually fixed? maybe it's simple.
2015-09-16T05:37:12Z drmeister: I won't need to yell.  The Ravenbrook folks have been wonderfully responsive and helpfull.
2015-09-16T05:37:43Z drmeister: I'm just at the end of several days of banging my head bloody against a wall and I wanted to see Clasp compile with MPS.
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2015-09-16T05:38:33Z drmeister: I thought I could get a compilation going overnight and then when they wake up in England they will fix the bug and I might be confident that this is the last bug between me and Clasp+MPS
2015-09-16T05:40:54Z drmeister: I have a feel for what's going wrong - they have a pointer that is one byte beyond the end of a page and so MPS is throwing an assertion that the pointer doesn't belong to the page.  I don't know enough about their code to come up with a work around and I'm exhausted.
2015-09-16T05:42:40Z drmeister: Gah - I'm going to bed - tomorrow is another day.
2015-09-16T05:42:45Z drmeister: Good night.
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2015-09-16T06:47:56Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-09-16T06:49:18Z Firedancer: o/
2015-09-16T06:49:52Z varjag: morn
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2015-09-16T07:12:50Z jackdaniel: I've started reading, and to my great suprise I've found some lisp in there http://interim.mntmn.com/ ^)^
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2015-09-16T08:23:23Z Talu3000: good evening
2015-09-16T08:23:27Z jackdaniel: hi Talu3000
2015-09-16T08:23:41Z Talu3000: hi ajckdaniel
2015-09-16T08:23:54Z Talu3000: are you coding in lisp?
2015-09-16T08:24:03Z jackdaniel: right now? yes
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2015-09-16T08:24:30Z Talu3000: ok cool
2015-09-16T08:24:35Z Talu3000: what are you coding?
2015-09-16T08:25:01Z jackdaniel: weblocks widget (weblocks is webapps frameworks - something like django or ror)
2015-09-16T08:25:11Z jackdaniel: framework*
2015-09-16T08:26:27Z knobo-net: I remember back in the early days of this century, I had a statusbar in the top of my slime repl that said something about the slime connection
2015-09-16T08:34:51Z Ober: you forgot to ^G
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2015-09-16T08:37:29Z jackdaniel: ^G  – the new google logo – it's fast, it's reliable, it's ansi :D
2015-09-16T08:37:39Z jackdaniel: s/ansi/ascii/
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2015-09-16T08:45:39Z knobo-net: But I don't remember how to make that status bar appear
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2015-09-16T08:59:55Z knobo-net: I guess this image shows the statusbar I'm looking for https://chkno.net/slime-doc.gif
2015-09-16T09:00:28Z knobo-net: it says "CMU Common Lisp Port: 4....."
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2015-09-16T09:08:33Z knobo-net: Anyone know what that statusbar is called?
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2015-09-16T09:10:01Z varjag: knobo-net: it's slime-autodoc
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2015-09-16T09:10:22Z varjag: just enable slime-fancy in your config and it'll show up
2015-09-16T09:11:08Z pjb: knobo-net: mode-line
2015-09-16T09:11:35Z pjb: Since it's where the current mode is indicated (amongst other data).
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2015-09-16T09:18:15Z knobo-net: slime-banner
2015-09-16T09:18:17Z knobo-net: is it.
2015-09-16T09:20:49Z knobo-net: header-line
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2015-09-16T09:39:42Z Vityok: is Weblocks still maintained? its page on the common-lisp.net is rife with dead links
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2015-09-16T09:40:44Z ogamita: What do you prefer? A well maintained web site, or working code?
2015-09-16T09:40:58Z jackdaniel: Vityok: https://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki/WikiStart
2015-09-16T09:41:06Z jackdaniel: funny thing, I've just updated info about inactive main website
2015-09-16T09:41:09Z jackdaniel: on trac :D
2015-09-16T09:41:27Z jackdaniel: last commit is from may
2015-09-16T09:41:45Z Vityok: ogamita: both
2015-09-16T09:42:00Z ogamita: What do you prefer? Code that needs corrections every day because it's always fullof bugs, or working code?
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2015-09-16T09:42:57Z Vityok: ogamita: is maintaining the front page of your project without a bunch of dead links such a taxing task that is generates bugs in its code?
2015-09-16T09:43:00Z jackdaniel: ogamita: documentations is equally important as the working code. Active community is a poor substite for that
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2015-09-16T09:43:35Z ogamita: All I'm saying is that you get what you paid for.
2015-09-16T09:44:27Z jackdaniel: Vityok: you may write to the current maintainer and ask, if he still maintains the project
2015-09-16T09:44:37Z ogamita: At this point, you have the choice between giving money to the developer so that he has free time to update the web site and documentation, or hit on the head of your favorite politician so that he establishes universal revenue, basic income whatever the name, so that the developer has free time to update the web site and documentation.
2015-09-16T09:44:39Z ogamita: Your choice.
2015-09-16T09:44:59Z jackdaniel: if not - then the proper way to act would be reporting that project is abandoned to common-lisp.net administration (to mark it that way), or take maintainership
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2015-09-16T09:46:32Z Vityok: ok, people, I am not ranting, just asked a question. Actually, I wanted to see an overview of the current state of affairs in this project, what new features were added and how it looks like to develop applications using this framework
2015-09-16T09:46:44Z ogamita: git log
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2015-09-16T09:47:22Z jackdaniel: Vityok: I think you felt attacked, sorry about that. Yet I believe I gave you quite exact information about project state
2015-09-16T09:47:38Z jackdaniel: s/project/the project/
2015-09-16T09:47:53Z Vityok: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-16T09:48:02Z CxCf: Hey all, I'm at my wits end. I'm just getting into lisp and I'm trying to figure out how to make slime work on emacs.
2015-09-16T09:48:17Z CxCf: However, when I start it, I get stuck in a sbcl repl
2015-09-16T09:48:20Z CxCf: any ideas?
2015-09-16T09:48:39Z jackdaniel: Vityok: I'm acively using weblocks, if you have any problems we can try to figure stuff out
2015-09-16T09:48:40Z Vityok: jackdaniel: unfortunately Weblocks doesn't even have a README in its GitHub repo
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2015-09-16T09:49:17Z Vityok: CxCf: what do you mean stuck in a sbcl repl?
2015-09-16T09:49:22Z White_Flame: CxCf: are you in the *slime-repl sbcl* buffer, or *inferior-lisp*?
2015-09-16T09:49:29Z jackdaniel: https://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki - here's a pointer to 1) website snapshot (which has manual draft), 2) trac's manual - poors man tutorial
2015-09-16T09:49:31Z White_Flame: because the former is correct
2015-09-16T09:49:31Z CxCf: *inferior-lisp*
2015-09-16T09:49:43Z White_Flame: ah, well what does it say?  (paste.lisp.org)
2015-09-16T09:49:58Z attila_lendvai: CxCf: slime had this silly idea that it didn't load the plugins automatically. google how to do that, or just try sly which is a fork with more reasonable defaults and fixes
2015-09-16T09:50:05Z CxCf: and I have this Polling "var/..." error that counts to infinity
2015-09-16T09:50:16Z Vityok: jackdaniel: thanks, it was just a curiousity while procrastinating before doing the job
2015-09-16T09:50:55Z CxCf: Thanks attila_lendvai !!! Googling now
2015-09-16T09:51:22Z djh: Y'know, I see slime mentioned a lot.. I've been using plain vim to write stuff and the repl to run it and not felt any lack. What does slime do that's so useful it gets so many mentions?
2015-09-16T09:52:36Z H4ns: M-. comes to mind.
2015-09-16T09:52:37Z White_Flame: how do you run it from the repl?
2015-09-16T09:52:47Z White_Flame: (load "filename") etc?
2015-09-16T09:53:00Z djh: yup
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2015-09-16T09:53:19Z White_Flame: hitting a keystroke within one of many file buffers seems a lot more sane
2015-09-16T09:53:40Z CxCf: attila_lendvai: I keep seeing ac-slime coming up. That's not what I'm looking for right?
2015-09-16T09:53:41Z White_Flame: M-. jumps to a symbol's definition
2015-09-16T09:53:59Z White_Flame: SLIME's got a nice debugger/inspector
2015-09-16T09:54:05Z djh: Maybe it's something that'll matter more when I'm working on bigger projects, rather than just learning stuff
2015-09-16T09:54:07Z White_Flame: at least, better than the default interface
2015-09-16T09:54:14Z CxCf: is there something I could put in my init to fix the error?
2015-09-16T09:55:26Z jackdaniel: Vityok: so basically you had no intent to use weblocks yet you asked? hrmph, I feel that my attention got wasted in this particular situation :|
2015-09-16T09:56:58Z jackdaniel: regarding slime, I mostly appreciate region-based compilation/loading
2015-09-16T09:57:12Z jackdaniel: so you can recompile the function you currently edit with a keystroke
2015-09-16T09:57:20Z jackdaniel: sexp-based°
2015-09-16T09:58:18Z White_Flame: also, with slime enabled, the auto-indenter knows if something is a macro &body vs normal list indentation
2015-09-16T09:58:30Z White_Flame: that gets super annoying when the editor is unaware and starts mis-indenting code bodies
2015-09-16T09:58:34Z Vityok: jackdaniel: I wanted to see up-to-date status of the project, what new features does it offer, etc. to keep it in mind whenever I'll be facing a new task. However, the first page that Google gave me appeared to be unmamintained, hence my question here
2015-09-16T09:58:40Z Vityok: but sorry for wasting your time
2015-09-16T09:59:33Z CxCf: Originally, when I tried to M-x slime, I got an "inferior-lisp-program not running" error, so I had to install sblc and redefine the path (acconding to SO). I did that, and now I've been stuck in *inferior-lisp* mode ever since and slime won't connect:(
2015-09-16T09:59:51Z CxCf: *stack exchange
2015-09-16T10:00:31Z White_Flame: there should be an error message in *inferior-lisp* before all the connection failures stack up
2015-09-16T10:01:06Z White_Flame: since SLIME is waiting to connect, that means there's nothing perceived wrong on the emacs side, it's the SBCL/SWANK side that's failing
2015-09-16T10:01:54Z CxCf: I have this "Polling 'var/..." error message that is stuck counting to infinity. I have to force quit emacs every time I get it
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2015-09-16T10:02:14Z White_Flame: but what is in *inferior-lisp*?
2015-09-16T10:03:34Z CxCf: I'm not sure that I know what you mean? M-x slime brings me to *inferior lisp* mode and there is a big SBCL display message with a prompt at the bottom
2015-09-16T10:03:54Z CxCf: and the minibuffer dispalys the Polling "var/.." message and counts to infinity
2015-09-16T10:04:52Z CxCf: my apologies for the inexperience. I'm just starting to learn lisp and so far I've had one heck of a time installing slime
2015-09-16T10:05:06Z White_Flame: which OS are you on btw?
2015-09-16T10:05:11Z CxCf: OSX
2015-09-16T10:05:22Z White_Flame: oh, I have no idea what hairy details await there
2015-09-16T10:05:32Z CxCf: Switching to Debian within the year though, for what its worth
2015-09-16T10:05:42Z H4ns: CxCf: what emacs do you use?
2015-09-16T10:06:01Z CxCf: GNU Emacs 24.4.1
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2015-09-16T10:07:23Z H4ns: CxCf: looks proper.  how did you start slime?  can you paste what you've put into your .emacs and what you see in your *inferior-lisp* buffer to paste.lisp.org?
2015-09-16T10:07:47Z White_Flame: CxCf: in a nutshell, SLIME runs in Emacs, which then launches SBCL, giving it startup scripts to run the SWANK server.  Any output from the SBCL process goes into *inferior-lisp*
2015-09-16T10:08:11Z CxCf: will do, one sec...
2015-09-16T10:08:12Z White_Flame: at the top of my *inferior-lisp* is a big (progn (load "/..../swank-loader.lisp") ...) expression, which is what is being passed to sbcl
2015-09-16T10:08:36Z H4ns: CxCf: did you install slime using quicklisp?
2015-09-16T10:09:48Z CxCf: Originally I used M-x package-list-packages, but I'm pretty sure I tried using quicklisp as well when trying to fix another bug
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2015-09-16T10:10:20Z otwieracz: Jeżu, jebany touchpad.
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2015-09-16T10:10:36Z H4ns: CxCf: i would suggest that you uninstall slime using your package manager and then use (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) to install it
2015-09-16T10:10:42Z otwieracz: oops, not here.
2015-09-16T10:10:57Z H4ns: CxCf: quicklisp-slime-helper will tell you what to put into your .emacs
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2015-09-16T10:12:31Z CxCf: H4ns: how do I uninstall slime with M-x package-load-packages?
2015-09-16T10:12:49Z CxCf: one sec
2015-09-16T10:12:56Z H4ns: CxCf: I'd go to ~/.emacs.d/ and look for the package directory, but i think the package manager can do it as well
2015-09-16T10:14:40Z CxCf: Ok, H4ns , its deleted
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2015-09-16T10:15:42Z H4ns: CxCf: exit emacs, start sbcl on the command line and evaluate (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper), then follow the instructions printed
2015-09-16T10:16:27Z CxCf: I'll give that a shot! Thank you so much. I really appreciate it!!!
2015-09-16T10:16:42Z H4ns: CxCf: i'm confident that you'll get it to run.  good luck
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2015-09-16T10:26:12Z CxCf: Alright, tried to use sbcl to load quicklisp, but got some sort of error
2015-09-16T10:26:20Z sjl__ is now known as sjl
2015-09-16T10:26:27Z CxCf: AMBDA2229 :IN ASDF::LOAD-SYSDEF) #<ASDF::FORMATTED-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR {121D7289}>)
2015-09-16T10:26:32Z CxCf: looks really ugly
2015-09-16T10:28:02Z Vityok: isn't Clozure CL supposed to offer better support for developmemnt on Macs?
2015-09-16T10:28:10Z pjb: It is.
2015-09-16T10:28:18Z pjb: Check AppStore Clozure CL.app
2015-09-16T10:29:07Z pjb: Vityok: or just (require :cocoa) in your ccl on MacOSX.
2015-09-16T10:29:22Z CxCf: I would, but I'm in a long term relationship with emacs. I'll check CL.app out, but I doubt I'd ever leave emacs
2015-09-16T10:29:45Z Vityok: CxCf: Clozure CL is also a good friend of SLIME
2015-09-16T10:29:51Z pjb: You can do both, once you've started swank in 'Clozure CL.app'.
2015-09-16T10:29:57Z Vityok: you can use Emacs+SLIME with Clozure CL
2015-09-16T10:30:12Z CxCf: orly?
2015-09-16T10:30:27Z Vityok: at least on Ubuntu I've got both SBCL and CCL running slime flawlessly
2015-09-16T10:30:30Z Vityok: never used Mac
2015-09-16T10:30:42Z CxCf: not missing much
2015-09-16T10:30:59Z djh: I'm on a Mac, I use it to run an Ubuntu VM :)
2015-09-16T10:31:01Z H4ns: CxCf: what version of sbcl are you using?
2015-09-16T10:31:38Z CxCf: how do I check that?
2015-09-16T10:31:47Z pjb: (lisp-implementation-version)
2015-09-16T10:31:49Z H4ns: sbcl --version
2015-09-16T10:32:09Z pjb: Chapter 25 of CLHS.
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2015-09-16T10:35:58Z CxCf: H4ns: shell sais bash command not found
2015-09-16T10:36:03Z CxCf: for sblc --version
2015-09-16T10:36:14Z H4ns: sbcl, not sblc
2015-09-16T10:36:47Z CxCf: thanks H4ns , it's been a long night
2015-09-16T10:36:47Z CxCf: SBCL 1.1.6.0-3c5581a
2015-09-16T10:37:51Z H4ns: CxCf: that is rather old.  i would recommend upgrading to see whether that fixes the issue.
2015-09-16T10:38:19Z CxCf: recommendaitons about how to do that?
2015-09-16T10:38:29Z CxCf: I've been working on this for so long I forgot how I installed it
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2015-09-16T10:41:38Z CxCf: 1.1.6 is what http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html recommends for Mac OSX
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2015-09-16T10:46:02Z H4ns: CxCf: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.2.11-x86-64-darwin-binary.tar.bz2
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2015-09-16T10:51:10Z CxCf: and H4ns should I follow the same instructions as http://www.sbcl.org/getting.html
2015-09-16T10:51:14Z CxCf: when starting it?
2015-09-16T10:51:19Z CxCf: *installing it
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2015-09-16T10:52:51Z Xach: 1.2.15 is better
2015-09-16T10:53:02Z H4ns: CxCf: there is an INSTALL file in the directory after you've unpacked the tar file, follow that
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2015-09-16T10:53:45Z H4ns: Xach: no download for 1.2.15 on www.sbcl.org, at least not linked from the front page.
2015-09-16T10:54:20Z CxCf: That worked! I have sbcl working now. Loading quicklisp now!
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2015-09-16T11:01:52Z CxCf: Well, thats a cleaner error message
2015-09-16T11:02:02Z CxCf: when I M-x slime, I get the error
2015-09-16T11:02:03Z CxCf: apply: Specified program for new process is a directory
2015-09-16T11:02:13Z CxCf: did I just specify the path of something wrong?
2015-09-16T11:02:37Z H4ns: what's the value of your inferior-lisp-program variable in emacs?
2015-09-16T11:03:08Z CxCf:  "/usr/local/opt/sbcl/"
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2015-09-16T11:03:22Z H4ns: you need to specify the name of the executable, not the name of a directory.
2015-09-16T11:04:09Z CxCf: what's the executable? the tar file?
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2015-09-16T11:04:53Z H4ns: type "which sbcl" in your shell, that will tell you the path to the sbcl executable.
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2015-09-16T11:06:03Z CxCf: I think I'm gonna cry:')
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2015-09-16T11:06:16Z CxCf: Hack! And Be Merry!!!
2015-09-16T11:06:18Z CxCf: !!!!!!!!
2015-09-16T11:06:36Z CxCf: H4ns: I really owe you one my friend.
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2015-09-16T11:06:56Z H4ns: enjoy!
2015-09-16T11:07:47Z CxCf: Indeed good sir! Indeed I shall :')
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2015-09-16T12:21:11Z varjag: is there a portable way to programmatically generate packages?
2015-09-16T12:21:23Z varjag: other than wrapping defpackage
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2015-09-16T12:21:34Z Shinmera: clhs make-package
2015-09-16T12:21:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm
2015-09-16T12:21:52Z varjag: but of course
2015-09-16T12:21:55Z varjag: thanks
2015-09-16T12:22:16Z Shinmera: Whenever you have a question about a function existing, have search through http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_AllSym.htm first
2015-09-16T12:22:39Z Shinmera: In most cases you'll find the answer easily enough that way.
2015-09-16T12:24:02Z Xach: the permuted index is nice too
2015-09-16T12:24:23Z Xach: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/Permuted-P.html
2015-09-16T12:24:59Z jackdaniel: looks cozy
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2015-09-16T12:26:53Z phadthai: there is also a hyperspec chapter on packages
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2015-09-16T13:30:25Z jackdaniel: how to unintern class?
2015-09-16T13:30:37Z Xach: jackdaniel: (setf (find-class name) nil) is what I've heard
2015-09-16T13:30:57Z jackdaniel: Xach: worked! thanks
2015-09-16T13:32:07Z Shinmera: Note that only the association is removed, not the class object itself.
2015-09-16T13:32:14Z Shinmera: clhs find-class
2015-09-16T13:32:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm
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2015-09-16T14:01:09Z flip214: Xach: shouldn't eg. "compile-file-pathname
2015-09-16T14:01:18Z flip214: " be twice on that page? for each "p", that is?
2015-09-16T14:01:39Z flip214: thanks for the pointer, anyway
2015-09-16T14:01:42Z Xach: flip214: For people who are searching for things related to piles?
2015-09-16T14:01:53Z Xach: flip214: I think it is meant for whole words only.
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2015-09-16T14:03:50Z flip214: well, upper-case-p is in only for the first "p" ...
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2015-09-16T14:04:39Z flip214: which is in the middle of a word. the "-p" would be "whole word", though ;)
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2015-09-16T14:26:19Z Xach: flip214: i thinkt hat is a heuristic failure
2015-09-16T14:27:09Z Xach: maybe something to do with pprint
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2015-09-16T15:08:12Z phf: what are the packages to do distributed computing? i think lparallel had some machinery to execute tasks across multiple machines, so i'm going to look at it, but i think i remember there was also a pretty mature project that was focused on cluster based computation
2015-09-16T15:09:07Z Xach: phf: lfarm is the distributed part of lparallel
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2015-09-16T15:09:23Z Xach: phf: cl-mpi is another thing. it uses the mpi foreign library i believe.
2015-09-16T15:09:39Z _death: I found pzmq useful
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2015-09-16T15:10:57Z phf: Xach: thanks, i was thinking of lfarm
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2015-09-16T15:12:02Z phf: _death: last time i tried working with zmq it still had few places on c level where it called exit() on error, do you know if that has changed, i.e. is it safe to run in the main instance of your program or you need to fork it still?
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2015-09-16T15:13:05Z _death: phf: never experienced that
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2015-09-16T15:14:44Z phf: ok
2015-09-16T15:15:00Z phf: good to know, come to think of it "last time" was 2010 or so..
2015-09-16T15:16:15Z _death: I see.. I started using it some two years ago or so
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2015-09-16T15:24:33Z reb``: phf: swank-crew lets you interactively develop master/worker parallel code.  Exceptions in the worker Lisps propagate to your Slime session on the master.
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2015-09-16T15:27:45Z Xach: nice
2015-09-16T15:28:00Z phf: reb``: thanks, this looks neat and might be closer to my needs then lfarm even
2015-09-16T15:28:19Z sjl: lisp newbie here: if I want very basic thread support that can run on multiple implementations, what library should I be looking at?  bordeaux-threads?
2015-09-16T15:28:39Z jackdaniel: sjl: yes
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2015-09-16T15:29:31Z sjl: https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ seems to indicate it doesn't work on CCL, which would be nice
2015-09-16T15:29:36Z jackdaniel: sjl: and if you look for concurrency checkout lparallel
2015-09-16T15:29:39Z sjl: but I can live without CCL support if necessary
2015-09-16T15:29:51Z otwieracz: bordeaux-threads work in CCL, AFAIR.
2015-09-16T15:30:01Z jackdaniel: sjl: this is very outdated
2015-09-16T15:30:11Z sjl: Last modified: Sunday, 30-May-2010
2015-09-16T15:30:12Z sjl: oh lovely
2015-09-16T15:30:15Z jackdaniel: I think page should be updated, but whatever :p
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2015-09-16T15:30:57Z sjl: and yeah I just want something really simple, for handling multiple socket connections concurrently
2015-09-16T15:30:58Z jackdaniel: bt works on most if not all distributions (altough CMU has green threads so bt won't work there)
2015-09-16T15:31:00Z sjl: nothing fancy
2015-09-16T15:31:18Z jackdaniel: if you look for "threads" bordeaux threads is the way to go
2015-09-16T15:31:24Z sjl: yeah, sounds good
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2015-09-16T15:31:51Z sjl: just wanted to make sure it hasn't been superceded by some other library that hasn't gotten as much google traction
2015-09-16T15:31:51Z jackdaniel: (defparameter *my-thread* (bt:make-thread #'my-function))
2015-09-16T15:31:57Z jackdaniel: voila, you have thread in the background
2015-09-16T15:32:00Z sjl: yeah that sounds perfect
2015-09-16T15:32:01Z sjl: thanks
2015-09-16T15:32:30Z jackdaniel: pleasure (:
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2015-09-16T16:17:00Z mrSpec: Hi! Does anyone know any lisp library to vizualize which function is called by which? Like using who-calls on everything in my package to draw nice graph?
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2015-09-16T16:18:29Z flip214: cliki says albert, but that looks old
2015-09-16T16:18:34Z flip214: perhaps doxygen can help?
2015-09-16T16:18:58Z flip214: (just convert the lisp syntax into C via a pipe ....     ouch!)
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2015-09-16T16:44:38Z dlowe: There's a nice program called dots that will do the graph rendering for you if you can output the call graph in the proper format
2015-09-16T16:45:03Z flip214: dlowe: "graphviz" is the package name
2015-09-16T16:45:14Z flip214: perhaps the information could be fetched from swank
2015-09-16T16:45:39Z flip214: "dot", "circo", "neato" ... all different strategies for plotting the information then
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2015-09-16T17:28:46Z jasom: pjb: concatenation comment was in the context of code-golf
2015-09-16T17:30:06Z jasom: minion: memo for kami: here was our ultimate solution to the code golf: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/57984/loves-me-loves-me-not/58046#58046
2015-09-16T17:30:06Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kami when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-16T17:54:02Z pjb: jasom: that was my point: (use-package "CODE-GOLF-LISP") (💶) and have fun with code golf operators and reader macros!.
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2015-09-16T17:56:40Z jasom: pjb: using non-builtin libraries violates the spirit of code golf.  Why not just say put (defun s() solution goes here) in your .sbclrc and submit (s) as the solution
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2015-09-16T17:58:04Z dlowe: that can give later languages a pretty unfair advantage, since more and more stuff is coming "built-in"
2015-09-16T18:00:14Z kristof: What's included and what isn't included is really ambiguous.
2015-09-16T18:00:48Z kristof: Because of what dlowe said: "batteries included" is quite popular.
2015-09-16T18:01:16Z dlowe: we used to have a batteries include lisp-in-a-box that would be a good candidate for such a thing
2015-09-16T18:01:33Z dlowe: A QL-powered lisp-in-a-box would be pretty neat.
2015-09-16T18:01:46Z dlowe: Just preload the whole distribution
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2015-09-16T18:01:58Z dwchandler: bah. code golf is fun, but it's not to be taken too seriously
2015-09-16T18:02:23Z dwchandler: if some people don't play in the spirit of the game then that's too bad
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2015-09-16T18:03:58Z oGMo: so just make "cgcl" which includes code golfing macros and submit your solutions as "CGCL" instead of "CL"
2015-09-16T18:04:16Z dlowe: or just don't do cross-language code golfing
2015-09-16T18:04:38Z dlowe: CL has long words for operations. It's not meant to be compact.
2015-09-16T18:05:46Z oGMo: or use FORMAT ;)
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2015-09-16T18:07:03Z oGMo: i think the main issue with pure format solutions is ~/ can't take a lambda
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2015-09-16T18:16:43Z Shinmera: ~v// would be nice indeed.
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2015-09-16T18:53:42Z jasom: oGMo: (defun x()) is the same length as (lambda())
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2015-09-16T18:58:07Z jackdaniel: (defmacro df (&body body) `(defun ,@body)) #|if you really must|#
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2015-09-16T19:03:22Z oGMo: jasom: fair
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2015-09-16T19:15:08Z PuercoPop: jasom: you can say/argue that you are not using CL but a custom code golfing language implemented in CL :D
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2015-09-16T19:15:39Z jasom: PuercoPop: of course, but again, my comment was in the context of Code Golfing in Common Lisp
2015-09-16T19:15:54Z knobo-net: sjl: maybe you want cl-async
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2015-09-16T20:45:52Z sjl: knobo-net: nah I thin bordeaux threads is gonna work for what I want
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2015-09-16T20:49:18Z lmj`: When I'm using binary stream sockets in CCL, the external format doesn't matter as long as I'm not attempting to print the stream, right? I'm tracking down a bug in the new ccl version, and I want to put that question to rest.
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2015-09-16T20:50:40Z rme: lmj`: Sorry you're dealing with a bug. The sockets code changed a lot.
2015-09-16T20:50:41Z lmj`: A binary stream in CCL shows up as #<BASIC-TCP-STREAM ISO-8859-1 ...>, which looks weird but presumably doesn't matter.
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2015-09-16T20:50:59Z lmj`: ... but that is no different from the previous version
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2015-09-16T20:54:46Z rme: There's still a notion that socket streams are "bivalent", so without looking very hard, I think that's OK.
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2015-09-16T20:56:13Z lmj`: rme: is there a recommended external format for element type of (unsigned-byte 8)?
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2015-09-16T20:56:58Z lmj`: I suppose it's a matter of "how do you want to interpret these random bits"
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2015-09-16T20:59:37Z rme: It seems to me that :iso-8859-1 makes the most sense, and that's the default.
2015-09-16T21:01:53Z |3b| wouldn't expect 8859-1 to complain even if you did read binary data as a string
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2015-09-16T21:08:59Z lmj`: rme: ok thanks. The presumed bug causes "Bad file descriptor (error #9) during write" and/or "Unexpected end of file" during lfarm tests. It never appears with the old ccl. Of course there might be an issue with cl-store or flexi-streams or my code depending upon an old bug.
2015-09-16T21:09:39Z rpg: When I am printing a list, is there an easy way to tell PPRINT to put each of the elements on a separate line, even if >1 would fit on a line?
2015-09-16T21:10:55Z rpg: I can just dolist and pprint inside that, but it seems wrong....
2015-09-16T21:12:20Z dim: there's a style you can tweak to that end IIRC
2015-09-16T21:12:58Z lmj`: rme: the tests are doing highly concurrent stuff with streams, and the bug is intermittent. The changes to sockets in ccl might have introduced a concurrency problem.
2015-09-16T21:13:19Z dim: rpg: see about "miser style"
2015-09-16T21:13:33Z rpg: dim: Thanks.  Will check!
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2015-09-16T21:15:24Z dim: they seem to dive into the topic at http://franz.com/support/documentation/ansicl.94/subsecti/examples.htm, but I've learnt about it in the original paper for the pretty printer
2015-09-16T21:16:54Z rme: lmj`: I don't know. I can imagine that seemingly innocent changes might cause or reveal a concurrency problem.
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2015-09-16T21:20:23Z lmj`: rme: if you are interested in reproducing, (ql:quickload :lfarm-test) (lfarm-test:execute) on Linux x86.
2015-09-16T21:20:58Z lmj`: needs quite a bit of whittling
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2015-09-16T21:23:26Z lmj`: ugh, I forgot it needs an ssh local server, so reproducing isn't that easy
2015-09-16T21:23:44Z rme: lmj`: 32-bit or 64-bit?  I'll write a ticket, anyway;  we can update it if a better test case is found.
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2015-09-16T21:25:13Z lmj`: rme: 32-bit
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2015-09-16T21:27:15Z lmj`: I'm not sure if I have time to whittle it down, but the next thing I would check is sending cl-store objects across streams with massive concurrency.
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2015-09-16T21:27:51Z lmj`: without the lfarm apparatus, of course
2015-09-16T21:28:09Z slyrus_: argh...
2015-09-16T21:28:11Z slyrus_: so... I seem to have forgotten how to make emacs indent backquoted forms nicely. is there some emacs-fu I'm forgetting that makes backquoted forms indent more prettily?
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2015-09-16T21:28:32Z rme: lmj`: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1313
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2015-09-16T21:30:12Z rme: I'm not sure if I'll have much time to look it at, but at least it's there to shame and discomfit me.
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2015-09-16T21:59:02Z lmj`: slyrus: Can you show an example of a backquoted form not indenting properly? It works for me, though there are occasional quirks.
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2015-09-16T22:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good reason not to write things like (defparameter (symbol-function 'something) (function-that-returns-a-function arg1 arg2 etc...))?
2015-09-16T22:41:21Z Bicyclidine: well, it won't work, for one
2015-09-16T22:41:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I meant "setf"
2015-09-16T22:41:54Z Bicyclidine: oh. nah, that's pretty fine. won't have compile time effects but i imagine you're not expecting them.
2015-09-16T22:43:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think so, I just find the way jonathan:compile-encoder returns a function value rather than defining a function to be slightly irksome
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2015-09-16T23:43:05Z lmj`: rme: I have a smallish test case now; I'll submit a bug report soon.
2015-09-16T23:43:34Z lmj`: you can close the old one
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2015-09-16T23:45:12Z lmj`: rme: actually the old ccl version has the bug, too, it's just rarer
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2015-09-16T23:48:56Z rme: lmj`: Thank you.
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2015-09-17T00:10:26Z spyrosoft: In Let Over Lambda, there is an example how to write macros with a macro for defining unit conversions. Is this a typo, or an implementation variation?
2015-09-17T00:10:27Z spyrosoft: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155322
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2015-09-17T00:11:16Z spyrosoft: When I remove a comma from the g!-unit-value and g!-unit, it compiles and works in SBCL.
2015-09-17T00:12:19Z spyrosoft: I'm inclined to think that it's not a typo, because he mentions double commas earlier in the chapter.
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2015-09-17T00:19:32Z nyef: spyrosoft: LoL apparently does unportable stuff with unexpanded quasiquote expressions that no longer work on SBCL since their not-so-recent quasiquote rewrite.
2015-09-17T00:20:26Z spyrosoft: Do you know what implementation it was written in?
2015-09-17T00:20:52Z nyef: I have no clue. Not particularly familiar with LoL at all.
2015-09-17T00:21:10Z nyef: And, IIRC, it works on older versions of SBCL.
2015-09-17T00:21:35Z spyrosoft: Sounds good. A bit spooky, but as long as it works.
2015-09-17T00:22:22Z nyef: Looks like the new quasiquote thing was introduced in SBCL 1.2.2, so SBCL 1.2.1 might run the code verbatim.
2015-09-17T00:22:46Z spyrosoft: Is there some way to look up what/why the rewrite happened?
2015-09-17T00:22:49Z nyef: Or I think that there's a repository somewhere with versions that have been fixed for SBCL's newer quasiquote.
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2015-09-17T00:23:09Z nyef: Better pretty-printing, it says here.
2015-09-17T00:23:33Z nyef is looking at the SBCL NEWS file.
2015-09-17T00:24:08Z spyrosoft: Thanks!
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2015-09-17T00:25:00Z nyef: Good luck.
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2015-09-17T00:26:54Z _death: is there a particular sbcl benchmark for compilation speed?
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2015-09-17T00:31:40Z Ober: _death just nuke ~/quicklisp cache and load something big like coleslaw
2015-09-17T00:35:30Z _death: I do that often enough anyway.. but looking more for something like seeing the effect of different policies and different versions..
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2015-09-17T00:38:39Z _death: I remember sbcl had (has?) a buildbot..
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2015-09-17T00:49:13Z Xach: _death: antifuchs ran one but his has not worked for many years
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2015-09-17T00:52:36Z _death: Xach: I see, thanks... I liked your post btw ;)
2015-09-17T00:52:57Z Xach: _death: it is really going to help me with quicklisp!
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2015-09-17T00:55:16Z _death: cool :)
2015-09-17T00:55:59Z rme: Xach: ccl has ccl:*resident-editor-hook* if you want to do a similar thing there.
2015-09-17T00:56:01Z rme: (setq *resident-editor-hook* (lambda (arg) (swank:ed-in-emacs arg)))
2015-09-17T00:56:20Z Xach: rme: that hooks into cl:ed? cool!
2015-09-17T00:56:42Z _death: why isn't it part of slime yet..
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2015-09-17T00:57:03Z Xach: Don't know
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2015-09-17T01:08:27Z Xach: rme: I guess I could just do (setq *resident-editor-hook* #'swank:ed-in-emacs)
2015-09-17T01:09:04Z rme: Well, sure.
2015-09-17T01:09:07Z rme blushes
2015-09-17T01:09:11Z rme: Obviously.
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2015-09-17T01:11:11Z rme: Someday I'll learn to pay better attention.
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2015-09-17T01:11:59Z Xach updates the post
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2015-09-17T01:29:00Z lmj`: rme: I'm about to submit but I feel like I'm not understanding something. In this stress test I'm getting "Connection reset by peer" errors in ccl-1.11 but not 1.10 (except very rarely). When I pass :connect-timeout 900000 :input-timeout 900000 :output-timeout 900000 to ccl:make-socket, the error changes to "Connection timed out", but it occurs within a minute (not 15 minutes or 15 hours).
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2015-09-17T01:29:07Z lmj`: ugh just missed
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2015-09-17T01:40:04Z lmj`: rme: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1314
2015-09-17T01:41:31Z lmj`: Maybe I don't understand CCL socket timeouts -- when give large timeouts to ccl:make-socket, I get "Connection timed out" errors instead, and well before the timeout happens.
2015-09-17T01:41:56Z lmj`: Is that somehow expected, or more bugs?
2015-09-17T01:43:39Z lmj`: specifically, :connect-timeout 900000 :input-timeout 900000 :output-timeout 900000
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2015-09-17T01:47:50Z rme: lmj`: I have to go, but if you feel like annotating the ticket with those remarks, that might be worthwhile.  Also, I assume you mean the problem occurs on "ccl-1.10 and ccl-1.11-RC1" (and not on trunk).  The ccl trunk is currently a bit of mess.
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2015-09-17T01:50:42Z lmj`: rme: ok. I tried trunk and RC1, but forgot to mention the latter. Hmm, I guess Trac won't let me edit the original.
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2015-09-17T02:20:59Z loke: Xach: Are you there?
2015-09-17T02:21:38Z Xach: I am here in spirit
2015-09-17T02:21:42Z loke: Xool
2015-09-17T02:21:43Z loke: Cool
2015-09-17T02:21:47Z Xach: Was ist los?
2015-09-17T02:21:49Z loke: I think I have found a bug in zs3
2015-09-17T02:22:06Z Xach: that is like finding salt in the ocean :~(
2015-09-17T02:22:10Z loke: Hah
2015-09-17T02:22:12Z Xach: what's up?
2015-09-17T02:22:52Z loke: Well, I'm trying to use it with Google Storage, and when I issue a call to ALL-BUCKETS I get an error because the parser assumes that the response has a "DisplayName" member, which is not there.
2015-09-17T02:23:13Z Xach: hold on now
2015-09-17T02:23:18Z loke: I believe DisplayName should be optional, but the way you declare the parser is a bit difficult for met o understan,
2015-09-17T02:23:24Z Xach: Google Storage has an AWS api?
2015-09-17T02:23:28Z loke: Yep
2015-09-17T02:23:52Z loke: https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/migrating?hl=en
2015-09-17T02:24:23Z Xach: loke: Well, you could wrap the ("DisplayName" ...) bit in (optional ("DisplayName" ...))
2015-09-17T02:24:45Z Xach: If that works, I can take it as a patch
2015-09-17T02:25:55Z loke: Ah, that worked
2015-09-17T02:26:39Z loke: That's cool. Thanks!
2015-09-17T02:27:01Z Xach: loke: I suspect there may be many issues like that, though.
2015-09-17T02:27:08Z loke: Quite possibly.
2015-09-17T02:27:14Z Xach: If you run into others, let me know
2015-09-17T02:27:28Z Xach: more delicious salt for my potato chips of software!
2015-09-17T02:29:47Z loke: sure
2015-09-17T02:30:02Z loke: I'm also researching the use of riak-cs
2015-09-17T02:30:10Z loke: that might reveal more issues with your zs3
2015-09-17T02:31:19Z loke: You know, even though large-project CL development can be a bit of a hassle sometimes with bugs in low-level libraries, the fact that it's much easier to get attention from the developers and the ease by which one can develop an test a fix makes it worth it.
2015-09-17T02:31:43Z Xach: Hah! You're just lucky my phone buzzes me when someone writes "xach"
2015-09-17T02:31:45Z Xach goes off to watch TV
2015-09-17T02:31:57Z Xach: github issues welcome
2015-09-17T02:32:38Z loke: Xach: That's cool. I want that too. How did you set that up?
2015-09-17T02:34:04Z XachX: loke: irccloud. It's pretty handy.
2015-09-17T02:34:57Z loke: Thanks, I'll take a look
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2015-09-17T03:49:07Z drmeister: Ok, I like magit in emacs.
2015-09-17T03:49:37Z drmeister: Oh, it's looks like everyone who pushed me to use it is asleep.
2015-09-17T03:50:32Z drmeister: So it appears that I have the Memory Pool System garbage collector working again with Clasp.
2015-09-17T03:51:16Z drmeister: I'm just compiling cclasp (Cleavir+Clasp) to run it with MPS.  This is the theoretically predicted "best clasp running configuration" but it's never been seen in practice.
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2015-09-17T04:18:22Z drmeister: I cloned it again and the clone has the correct code
2015-09-17T04:18:32Z drmeister: Just not the submodule ARGH
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2015-09-17T04:20:13Z drmeister: The one freaking thing I need to work.
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2015-09-17T05:06:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-17T05:20:41Z aeth: Apparently the difference between listp and consp is that listp returns t on nil and consp returns nil on nil, and according to the 3rd edition of the chineual, listp used to behave like consp, I guess in Lisp Machine Lisp before Common Lisp.
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2015-09-17T05:21:31Z aeth: *chinual
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2015-09-17T05:25:09Z aeth: It's interesting how many subtle differences there are between the non-CLOS parts of the hyperspec and the chinual.
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2015-09-17T05:26:37Z beach: aeth: Common Lisp was also inspired by MacLisp.  Perhaps some of the conventions came from there.
2015-09-17T05:27:22Z aeth: It's possible that some other Lisp already made the distinction. page 7 of the chinual says at the end "[This may be changed in the future.]"
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2015-09-17T05:28:08Z flip214: drmeister: "git submodule update"?
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2015-09-17T05:45:06Z beach: aeth: http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/list.html
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2015-09-17T05:46:07Z beach: aeth: In PDP-10 Maclisp, (LISTP q) is the same as: (OR (NULL q) (EQ (TYPEP q) 'LIST))
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2015-09-17T05:49:13Z aeth: ah, I'm glad that programs from the PDP-10 are that much easier to port
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2015-09-17T05:53:24Z kruhft: I thought I would share my new album with you fellow lispers: https://kruhft.bandcamp.com/album/something-concrete-ep
2015-09-17T05:57:47Z pjb: kruhft: there's #lispcafe for that.
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2015-09-17T05:59:51Z kruhft: sure, thanks, didn't even know about that channel
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2015-09-17T06:09:38Z kami: Good morning.
2015-09-17T06:09:38Z minion: kami, memo from jasom: here was our ultimate solution to the code golf: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/57984/loves-me-loves-me-not/58046#58046
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2015-09-17T06:10:38Z kami: jasom: wow. That's ~ 20 bytes shorter than what we had initially.
2015-09-17T06:17:02Z aeth: Would code golf in standard CL even be possible without FORMAT?
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2015-09-17T06:17:27Z aeth: Lisp is kind of the anti-golf language
2015-09-17T06:20:08Z loke: Xach: Are you there? I have another question.
2015-09-17T06:20:24Z Shinmera: Eh. Lisp can be plenty concise once the problem gets big enough, but that's usually not within golf range.
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2015-09-17T06:21:53Z loke: Thus should be very consise in APL
2015-09-17T06:21:56Z loke: let me try...
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2015-09-17T06:24:58Z aeth: Shinmera: Afaik, Lisp can be very concise per atom, but it's usually not concise per character. Also, a lot of the conciseness requires macros, functions, objects, etc., so yeah, large programs.
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2015-09-17T06:25:39Z aeth: e.g. (lambda () ...) instead of λ...
2015-09-17T06:26:41Z aeth: A language similar to lisp that prefers short identifiers will win a code golf afaik
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2015-09-17T06:27:57Z aeth: maybe someone should make a golflisp just to cheat at code golf, but then that's off topic and is a ##lisp or #lispcafe thing not a #lisp thing
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2015-09-17T06:31:02Z pjb: well, one problem of code golfing is that it only addresses only small programs.  It would be funnier if it started with bigger applications.
2015-09-17T06:31:54Z aeth: Given a sufficiently large application Lisp would almost always do better than most mainstream languages. Probably.
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2015-09-17T06:32:17Z aeth: Define enough macros.
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2015-09-17T06:32:55Z pjb: In lisp we could just compress a binary representation of the sexp with standard algorithms.
2015-09-17T06:32:57Z White_Flame: it'd be more convenient if it were called code mini-golf, to differentiate from tackling full "golf" problems
2015-09-17T06:33:09Z pjb: Exactly.
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2015-09-17T06:34:05Z aeth: someone needs to make an Interstellar Obfuscated CL Code Contest
2015-09-17T06:34:30Z aeth: Lisp could probably do better stuff than this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest
2015-09-17T06:34:42Z pjb: Well, obfuscated is too easy.  I would aim at misleading.
2015-09-17T06:35:20Z White_Flame: http://www.underhanded-c.org/
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2015-09-17T06:35:42Z pjb: <some strage reader macro> ¢ <some normal looking lisp code>  --> totally different result.
2015-09-17T06:35:47Z aeth: pjb: why not both? how about a program that starts out really plain and clear and winds up doing something ridiculous
2015-09-17T06:35:59Z aeth: oh you have the exactly opposite idea
2015-09-17T06:36:09Z pjb: :-)
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2015-09-17T06:50:59Z aeth: Hmm, unfortunately, I think lisp-1s beat lisp-2s at underhanded code. Easier to disguise function calls.
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2015-09-17T06:58:43Z aeth: hmm, actually, idk, because it would be confusing/entertaining to have a (list list 'list #'list) somewhere in the code.
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2015-09-17T07:02:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Using jonathan for encoding JSON, I'm getting an error "The value ... is not of type simple-string"
2015-09-17T07:02:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to convert an arbitrary string to a simple-string?
2015-09-17T07:02:38Z flip214: pjb: why not change the meaning of tab, space, or linefeed? depending on the next line, that goes in the direction of "trusting trust"...
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2015-09-17T07:08:15Z pjb: aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155338
2015-09-17T07:09:44Z aeth: interesting
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2015-09-17T07:12:05Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: (make-array (length string) :element-type 'character :initial-contents string)
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2015-09-17T07:12:26Z pjb: (copy-seq string) does the same.
2015-09-17T07:12:34Z pjb: (unless string is not a string).
2015-09-17T07:12:39Z Shinmera: Gah, forgot about copy-seq.
2015-09-17T07:13:20Z pjb: (coerce string 'string) if string is not a string and if not copying it is acceptable when it's a string.
2015-09-17T07:18:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Jonathan does a typecheck in %to-json, and postmodern doesn't seem to return simple-strings for text fields
2015-09-17T07:18:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks: coerce seems to work
2015-09-17T07:18:31Z pjb: As long as it returns strings, it should be ok.
2015-09-17T07:18:38Z pjb: DO NOT expect simple-strings!
2015-09-17T07:18:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not, the library I'm using on does
2015-09-17T07:19:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/Rudolph-Miller/jonathan/blob/master/src/encode.lisp#L46
2015-09-17T07:19:33Z pjb: Yes, unfortunately there are libraries like that :-(
2015-09-17T07:20:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does copy-seq involve a performance penalty that something like coerce wouldn't?
2015-09-17T07:20:34Z pjb: copy-seq always makes a copy.  coerce only when the type changes.
2015-09-17T07:21:22Z pjb: Notice: subseq also always makes a new sequence. (copy-seq x) == (subseq x 0 (length x))
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2015-09-17T07:21:50Z pjb: use nsubseq if you want a subseq without copying.
2015-09-17T07:22:04Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq
2015-09-17T07:23:14Z clintm: Do any of you have experience with Ceramic, the native desktop application builder.
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2015-09-17T07:24:00Z aeth: I wonder how many people can figure this out without pasting it into the REPL.
2015-09-17T07:24:03Z aeth: ((lambda (lambda) ((lambda (lambda) lambda) lambda)) (list (let ((list (list))) (list list))))
2015-09-17T07:24:10Z pjb: clintm: it's all new.
2015-09-17T07:24:42Z jackdaniel: aeth: NIL
2015-09-17T07:24:53Z clintm: pjb: True.
2015-09-17T07:24:54Z jackdaniel: erm, (NIL)
2015-09-17T07:24:55Z pjb: == ((lambda (lambda) ((lambda (lambda) lambda) lambda))   ' ((())))
2015-09-17T07:25:07Z jackdaniel: (((NIL)))
2015-09-17T07:25:08Z jackdaniel: :D
2015-09-17T07:25:15Z pjb: == ((lambda (lambda) ((lambda (lambda) lambda) '((())))
2015-09-17T07:25:26Z pjb: I mean, == ((lambda (lambda) lambda) '((())))
2015-09-17T07:25:38Z pjb: --> ((()))
2015-09-17T07:25:48Z jackdaniel: ({n}NIL){n}
2015-09-17T07:25:51Z pjb: I count one less parenthesis.
2015-09-17T07:26:03Z pjb: ((lambda (lambda) ((lambda (lambda) lambda) lambda)) (list (let ((list (list))) (list list)))) #| --> ((nil)) |#
2015-09-17T07:26:06Z pjb: I win.
2015-09-17T07:26:25Z jackdaniel didn't proceed since he checked his second guess on repl
2015-09-17T07:26:33Z jackdaniel: so going forward would be cheating
2015-09-17T07:27:24Z pjb: aeth:  there are more ways to get nil: (list (let ()) (progn) (values)) #| --> (nil nil nil) |#  etc.
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2015-09-17T07:27:38Z pjb: (let nil)  #| --> nil |#  ; is rather nice :-)
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2015-09-17T07:28:00Z pjb: (progn (values (let nil)))
2015-09-17T07:28:12Z aeth: pjb: yes, I just wanted lots of repetition, and a red herring lambda section
2015-09-17T07:28:18Z pjb: (let (progn values)) #| --> nil |#  :-)
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2015-09-17T07:31:03Z aeth: I originally had more, e.g. cddaar, but if people suspected nil or nil in lists, then they'd just say NIL
2015-09-17T07:31:39Z pjb: ((lambda nil)) #| --> nil |#
2015-09-17T07:31:55Z aeth: maybe I should have had a few dozen nulls mixed in to make it hard to follow
2015-09-17T07:31:57Z Shinmera: I always liked the factorial example. (defun !(!)(if(<= ! 1)!(*(!(1- !))!)))
2015-09-17T07:32:37Z pjb: ((lambda (&rest lambda) lambda)) #| --> nil |#
2015-09-17T07:33:20Z aeth: Shinmera: nice
2015-09-17T07:33:50Z clintm: Shinmera: Before I dive face-first into turning our application into a desktop version with commonqt/qtools, are there many contortions/interpreted dance required to get things going on windows?
2015-09-17T07:34:03Z Shinmera: clintm: Not anymore! :)
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2015-09-17T07:34:07Z clintm: thank god.
2015-09-17T07:34:14Z Shinmera: clintm: Just quickload qtools and you should be good to go.
2015-09-17T07:34:31Z clintm: Shinmera: thank you for the glimmer of hope. :)
2015-09-17T07:34:59Z aeth: pjb: that is a sneaky nil
2015-09-17T07:34:59Z Shinmera: Let me know if it breaks. I've tested it as much as I could (even got Win8/10 VMs) and it should Just Work™
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2015-09-17T07:37:44Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: "-> Copying …" - why it copies system libraries to it's own directory?
2015-09-17T07:37:45Z pjb: aeth: sneakies: (equal 1 1.0)
2015-09-17T07:38:05Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: For easy management and deployment. It doesn't copy system libraries though.
2015-09-17T07:38:28Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That way I only have to push one dir to PATH and make sure that works, rather than having things all over the place.
2015-09-17T07:39:39Z jackdaniel: by system libraries I mean libraries installed in the system. Anyway - if they are in system-wide library path do you have to specify their directories?
2015-09-17T07:40:23Z jackdaniel: it would be nice to have function like (qtools:demo) to see if it works :p
2015-09-17T07:40:32Z Shinmera: I don't know what you're on about. "installed in the system" on Windows means put into System32/SysWOW63. Qt-libs does not look there unless you're doing weird shit.
2015-09-17T07:40:40Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: there are demos. Read the docs.
2015-09-17T07:41:02Z Shinmera: *64
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2015-09-17T07:41:34Z jackdaniel: I mean – on linux, it copies bunch of "so" objects
2015-09-17T07:41:42Z Shinmera: Ah, right.
2015-09-17T07:41:54Z Shinmera: It just does that to make it easier for deployment later.
2015-09-17T07:42:35Z Shinmera: Qtools has a bunch of preconfigured paths it searches automatically. It should error and let you specify one if it can't find things anywhere.
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2015-09-17T07:43:54Z Shinmera: Or rather, qt-libs does.
2015-09-17T07:44:45Z jackdaniel: and if demo fails - you prefer reports on github or somewhere else?
2015-09-17T07:45:02Z Shinmera: I'm not sure where else one would report.
2015-09-17T07:45:28Z Shinmera: I mean, you can tell me on here, but having a ticket would be preferable, yes.
2015-09-17T07:45:30Z jackdaniel: asdf has launchpad for instance (and issues reported on gitlab aren't tracked)
2015-09-17T07:45:40Z Shinmera: I'm not that fancy, haha.
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2015-09-17T07:48:20Z jackdaniel: reported
2015-09-17T07:48:25Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: ECL is not supported by Qtools right now.
2015-09-17T07:49:18Z jackdaniel: wellmhm
2015-09-17T07:49:37Z jackdaniel: with space inbetween
2015-09-17T07:50:05Z Shinmera: If someone knows a better way to get my readtable trickery to work, I'd be all ears.
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2015-09-17T07:54:01Z Shinmera: I'd like to support it, but yeah.
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2015-09-17T08:17:21Z gab-msl: I'm trying to use Peter Seibel's code for a database as a script. Here is the code I'm using right now: http://artigue.org.es/source-code/database.clisp
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2015-09-17T08:18:21Z gab-msl: those functions work well in the REPL, but as a standalone script, launched with the command "clisp database.clisp", the Enter I press to call a function is taken by the first field as well; how come? thanks
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2015-09-17T08:28:10Z pjb: gab-msl: it works perfectly well (as programmed).
2015-09-17T08:28:25Z pjb: gab-msl: notice, REPL = Read Eval PRINT Loop.
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2015-09-17T08:30:04Z pjb: gab-msl: you may want to use clear-input somewhere.
2015-09-17T08:30:31Z pjb: gab-msl: READ doesn't wait for a newline, when reading a #\(, it reads only until the matching #\).
2015-09-17T08:31:08Z pjb: gab-msl: the line is only read because of the terminal line discipline.  Then you have a #\newline left in the buffer after #\), which is read by your read-line in prompt-read.
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2015-09-17T08:31:50Z pjb: gab-msl: as a general rule, when doing interactive I/O, in addition to FINISH-OUTPUT (not force-output!), you need to do a CLEAR-INPUT, to throw away input that might have been typed before you're asking the question.
2015-09-17T08:32:33Z pjb: I guess you've been taught all about GUIs and WIMPs, and nothing about terminal I/O…
2015-09-17T08:32:53Z gab-msl: I didn't know anything about that, pjb, thanks for the explanation
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2015-09-17T08:33:22Z pjb: gab-msl: notice the difference between finish-output and force-output.
2015-09-17T08:33:36Z gab-msl: ok!
2015-09-17T08:34:05Z pjb: You would use force-output when writing streams to ensure "synchronization points", but finish-output for bidirectionnal interactive I/O.
2015-09-17T08:34:33Z gab-msl: I haven't been taught anything about terminal I/O nor GUIs ...
2015-09-17T08:35:00Z pjb: One wonder what they teach nowadays…
2015-09-17T08:35:05Z gab-msl: I'm beginning to understand, pjb, thanks a lot
2015-09-17T08:35:15Z gab-msl: I'm not a computer guy
2015-09-17T08:35:25Z gab-msl: I don't know what they teach nowadays :)
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2015-09-17T08:35:40Z pjb: gab-msl: notice, if you want to write a clisp script, you can put #!/usr/bin/clisp on the first line, and chmod +x your-script
2015-09-17T08:36:18Z pjb: Also, if you want the repl, you can use the -repl option of clisp,
2015-09-17T08:37:27Z gab-msl: I was just looking for an application to manage my simple databases; I used DBase III + in the 80s, I've been using csv for my simple databases, I learnt some MySQL, which is really overkill for my needs, and this small clisp script seems perfect for what I needed
2015-09-17T08:37:28Z pjb: On the other hand, using your own REPL could allow you to wrap it into a unwind-protect, so you could save the database before exiting (even with C-c).
2015-09-17T08:38:05Z pjb: gab-msl: you know, I just use a text file for my simple databases :-)
2015-09-17T08:38:13Z gab-msl: I didn't know clisp could understand #! in the first line
2015-09-17T08:38:49Z pjb: Since 1986, computers have had enough RAM, so that most personal databases can actually be held in a word processing or text processing document, and indexing be replaced with the search command of these programs :-)
2015-09-17T08:39:08Z gab-msl: haha
2015-09-17T08:39:18Z pjb: gab-msl: I have several clisp scripts in: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=tree&p=public/bin&h=a4960aae8c94c18cde1a90fdd552c999255581cf&hb=d3141bfc87c8c19d3128d1626fe7818d7a487d5a
2015-09-17T08:39:19Z gab-msl: that's what I've been doing for about 25 years!
2015-09-17T08:39:53Z pjb: Check for example: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=7043c32536431db21a0cf53cc473bc58e75c0d67&hb=d3141bfc87c8c19d3128d1626fe7818d7a487d5a&f=memo
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2015-09-17T08:40:10Z gab-msl: you wrote all those scripts?!
2015-09-17T08:40:14Z pjb: Yes.
2015-09-17T08:40:18Z gab-msl: wow
2015-09-17T08:40:30Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: are you interested in other bugs not present on CCL/SBCL? (speaking which - qtools from repository HEAD doesn't work with my SBCL, but it's not a release)
2015-09-17T08:40:32Z pjb: Not all are in lisp.  There are some older scripts still in bash or csh even! :-)
2015-09-17T08:41:13Z gab-msl: you know, I'm a Linguist, I come from the liberal arts (oh, the humanities!) and I -- as the cliché goes -- tend to view any programmer as a real genius
2015-09-17T08:42:00Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: "doesn't work" is annoyingly vague.
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2015-09-17T08:44:05Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: submitted an issue with backtrace
2015-09-17T08:44:14Z jackdaniel: and what about first part of the question?
2015-09-17T08:44:24Z gab-msl: the file generated by Peter Seibel's application is a text file, so it boils down to having a text file for a database :)   Actually, it seems easier to edit and maintain with vim thatn with the repl
2015-09-17T08:44:30Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I don't have much time, but sure, if you find something.
2015-09-17T08:45:01Z pjb: gab-msl: programming is mostly a language thing, with a pinch of logic throw in, so you have all is needed to be a programmer.
2015-09-17T08:45:05Z jackdaniel: I've submitted fix for your readtable, let mie know if it's suitable
2015-09-17T08:45:18Z jackdaniel: s/mie/me/
2015-09-17T08:45:33Z Shinmera: Yeah, I saw, thanks. I'll have a closer look later, need to take care of some other business right now.
2015-09-17T08:45:36Z gab-msl: easy to say, pjb!
2015-09-17T08:45:48Z Shinmera: Though I would have much preferred a pull request rather than just a patch in a comment.
2015-09-17T08:46:07Z Shinmera: (you can refer to issues in your commit message to link them together on github)
2015-09-17T08:46:11Z gab-msl: the only piece of code I wrote is a 60 lines C++ it took me a month to finish
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2015-09-17T08:46:28Z pjb: gab-msl: and if your need a form-by-form view of a structured file, emacs has a form-mode.  You can edit a file with separated columns, and applying an emacs form on it, you will view it record by record, each line of the file displayed on a single form page.
2015-09-17T08:46:40Z gab-msl: well, I have some personal bash scripts, which is or is not programming depending on who you ask
2015-09-17T08:46:41Z pjb: gab-msl: C++ is crazy.
2015-09-17T08:47:11Z gab-msl: I don't defend C++
2015-09-17T08:47:13Z jackdaniel: you said you're all ears, not accepting bugfixes
2015-09-17T08:47:27Z gab-msl: nor Lisp for that matter :(
2015-09-17T08:47:30Z pjb: gab-msl: check: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/forms.html
2015-09-17T08:47:31Z gab-msl: I'm an outsider
2015-09-17T08:47:40Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Bugfixes are even better!
2015-09-17T08:47:53Z pjb: I'm just saying that it's not surprising to get that low productivity of 2 line/day with C++.
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2015-09-17T08:48:05Z pjb: It should not reflect badly on you at all.
2015-09-17T08:48:15Z gab-msl: I've heard of Emacs and Emacs Lisp
2015-09-17T08:48:19Z jackdaniel: I believe so, but I have (like you) all but time, so I'm not fond with tracking which comments /readme should be changed for this
2015-09-17T08:48:36Z gab-msl: there is one non technical reason I don't use Emacs
2015-09-17T08:48:39Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Oh, don't worry. I'll take care of fixing the documentation if necessary.
2015-09-17T08:48:51Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I just prefer to have the attribution in the git history as well.
2015-09-17T08:48:52Z gab-msl: namely, that it was created by Richard Stallman :)
2015-09-17T08:49:02Z pjb: That's a very bad reason.
2015-09-17T08:49:05Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: I'll keep that in mind next time
2015-09-17T08:49:07Z gab-msl: hahaha
2015-09-17T08:49:18Z gab-msl: I say that half joking
2015-09-17T08:49:23Z pjb: Beware, he may have contributed to vi too!
2015-09-17T08:50:21Z gab-msl: I have the deepest respect for Stallman and GNU, but what annoys me is his, how do I put it, -- quest for credit
2015-09-17T08:50:59Z pjb: gab-msl: but in this case, forms-mode is not written by RMS, but by Johan Vromans.
2015-09-17T08:51:00Z gab-msl: all his projects are abundantly generous, which is great, but he is not generous about being generous
2015-09-17T08:51:14Z gab-msl: ok
2015-09-17T08:51:21Z pjb: gab-msl: he doesn't get much anything else.
2015-09-17T08:51:43Z gab-msl: I read his page about using the label "GNU/Linux"
2015-09-17T08:51:50Z pjb: For what he brought to the world, he could have been richer than Steve Jobs.
2015-09-17T08:52:00Z pjb: and he's perfectly right about it.
2015-09-17T08:52:40Z gab-msl: while I find that he has a point there, I find annoying that he feels the need to ask for credit, that he asks the people to use the "GNU/Linux" name
2015-09-17T08:52:45Z pjb: For example, you don't call Apple's OS, Darwin.  You call it MacOSX.
2015-09-17T08:52:46Z gab-msl: ok!
2015-09-17T08:52:50Z pjb: or iOS.
2015-09-17T08:52:53Z gab-msl: but he gave me an idea:
2015-09-17T08:53:15Z pjb: But they're actually Mach! (that is, Darwin/Mach according to RMS GNU/Linux naming scheme).
2015-09-17T08:53:36Z gab-msl: although I seldome use *BSD, when I do I DO CALL IT GNU/BSD, because I use GNU tools on BSD on purpose, just for the hell of it :)
2015-09-17T08:53:55Z pjb: :-)
2015-09-17T08:54:40Z gab-msl: I agree, RStallman, Linus, and a whole lot of people, should be richer than WGates for what they controbuted to the world
2015-09-17T08:55:29Z pjb: Anyways, writing your own database management code can have advantage, if you have need for some specific processing or automatisms.  If you want to just jolt notes down, then writing a text file might be better, and if you need some record by record presentation or editing, then I'd advise forms-mode on emacs.
2015-09-17T08:55:41Z gab-msl: so I call it "Linux" (I use Ubuntu), and Richard Stallman gave me the idea of using the denomination "GNU/BSD", which I also use
2015-09-17T08:56:07Z gab-msl: I understand
2015-09-17T08:56:19Z Shinmera: Can we get back to Lisp please.
2015-09-17T08:56:25Z gab-msl: haha
2015-09-17T08:56:31Z gab-msl: sorry
2015-09-17T08:56:35Z gab-msl: yes
2015-09-17T08:56:58Z gab-msl: that Common Lisp application seems to be just right for my present needs
2015-09-17T08:57:04Z clintm: Shinmera: Assuming you build executables that use qtools, what do you use to generate them?  Buildapp, I'm assuming?
2015-09-17T08:57:07Z pjb: Yes.  Since you might still want to go on with database.clisp for the lisp programming learning experience.  This will be good for you, since a lot of fun is to be have with lisp.
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2015-09-17T08:57:18Z Shinmera: clintm: No. I use ASDF straight up.
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2015-09-17T08:57:26Z gab-msl: MySQL seems overkill to my humble present needs
2015-09-17T08:57:29Z Shinmera: clintm: Qtools hooks into that actually, so buildapp won't work.
2015-09-17T08:57:56Z clintm: Shinmera: amazing work on qtools, by the way.  After spending a day messing with electron, chrome native, and finally ceramic, it's really nice to have something work.
2015-09-17T08:58:07Z Shinmera: clintm: Heh, glad to hear!
2015-09-17T08:58:15Z gab-msl: oh, sure, I'll try to learn some more Lisp to tweak that code, which would be awesome
2015-09-17T08:58:25Z clintm: Shinmera: ok, going that direction then.  Thanks again!
2015-09-17T08:58:27Z Shinmera: clintm: See https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L26 as an example for how to set up deployment
2015-09-17T08:58:35Z clintm: sweeeet
2015-09-17T08:58:53Z gab-msl: pjb, thanks again, and come to my IRC at artigue.org.es for a casual, not necessarily lisp centered, chat
2015-09-17T08:59:06Z Shinmera: clintm: you can then just call (asdf:operate :build-op :system) in a fresh sbcl and it'll dump an executable into a folder with all required DLLs or what have you
2015-09-17T08:59:36Z Shinmera: clintm: Usually that's a bin/ subfolder in the project root.
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2015-09-17T09:00:04Z Shinmera: clintm: I haven't documented all of this yet as there's some additional steps that need to be done on OS X (what a surprise) that I haven't implemented yet.
2015-09-17T09:00:11Z clintm: Shinmera: with all the required dlls?? damn.  I didn't even know that you could generate executables with asdf.  I've always used buildapp or save-lisp-and-die.  That's aweomse
2015-09-17T09:00:31Z Shinmera: clintm: It's very handy, yes.
2015-09-17T09:01:03Z clintm: Shinmera: that's my next target.  I'll write up what I had to do and send you a link, assuming I rememeber to do that. :)
2015-09-17T09:01:20Z Shinmera: clintm: Well if it appears on planet lisp I'll see it.
2015-09-17T09:01:21Z clintm: Err, I mean it'll be a week or two.
2015-09-17T09:01:50Z clintm: I should get on planet.lisp.  Just never have gotten around to it.
2015-09-17T09:01:58Z Shinmera: Drop Xach a mail.
2015-09-17T09:02:08Z clintm: I believe I will!
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2015-09-17T11:20:53Z Xach: the suspense is killing me!
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2015-09-17T11:51:32Z flip214: oh noes! who shall maintain quicklisp while you're being reanimated?
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2015-09-17T12:20:24Z clintm: Xach: hahah!
2015-09-17T12:20:40Z clintm: *scroll* *scroll* "what's he talking about??"
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2015-09-17T12:44:07Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Your patch is a good start, thanks a lot. However, it introduces a slight bug with #', which is probably the cause of your other issue. I'll implement it now and let you know once I know more.
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2015-09-17T12:46:39Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: good. the other issue doesn't affect SBCL. could you explain - what bug?
2015-09-17T12:47:07Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: You fixed the reader for (, but not for #'. I duplicated the new behaviour in that and it works fine now.
2015-09-17T12:47:33Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-09-17T12:50:56Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: qtools-game is an unfinished example by the way, so I'm not surprised it doesn't work right.
2015-09-17T12:51:29Z jackdaniel: hm, problem is with loading, not running (it doesnt run on sbcl either)
2015-09-17T12:52:14Z Shinmera: Yeah, I know. The keyboard.lisp file is missing from the system.
2015-09-17T12:52:15Z jackdaniel: I'm wrong - after fix it is with running
2015-09-17T12:52:28Z jackdaniel: that is it loads fine, but can't run
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2015-09-17T12:55:37Z clintm: Do any of you know how to tell what other libs a windows .dll requires?  I need drakma in a windows app, and that requires libssl in windows form.  I have it, but according to a couple of sources (on the web) CFFI has an issue where, when it has a list of dlls to find, and one has an error, it reports an error about the first in the list, and possibly not the one with the problem.
2015-09-17T12:56:00Z clintm: And sure enough, it's not loading one or all of them.
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2015-09-17T12:56:19Z Shinmera: I had a tool for that
2015-09-17T12:56:23Z jackdaniel: clintm: try to copy dll to your working directory
2015-09-17T12:56:28Z clintm: I did. :)
2015-09-17T12:56:35Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-09-17T12:56:46Z Shinmera: My VMs currently don't boot because Vmware screwed itself over in the last linux kernel update again
2015-09-17T12:56:48Z clintm: There's a bunch of them in there, between Qt and ssl.
2015-09-17T12:56:54Z Shinmera: So I can't check, but I'll get back to you once I know.
2015-09-17T12:57:28Z clintm: Shinmera: thanks!
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2015-09-17T13:05:49Z lieven: Shinmera: I feel your pain. I got so tired about patching vmnet and vmmon I shifted over all my stuff to virtualbox.
2015-09-17T13:06:46Z Shinmera: lieven: Virtualbox has been even worse ime.
2015-09-17T13:07:01Z Shinmera: clintm: the tool is called Dependency Walker http://www.dependencywalker.com/
2015-09-17T13:07:23Z lieven: Shinmera: I'm fairly happy with it but YMMV
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2015-09-17T13:26:45Z M80: I have a flat list and would like to do something like (loop for (key val) on flat-list …)  Is there a way to let loop grab two elements at a time out of a list?
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2015-09-17T13:27:54Z Shinmera: M80: you almost got it
2015-09-17T13:28:07Z Shinmera: just add `by #'cddr` after the `on flat-list`.
2015-09-17T13:28:16Z eudoxia: (loop for (a b) on (list 1 2 3 4) by #'cddr collecting (cons a b)) -> ((1 . 2) (3 . 4))
2015-09-17T13:28:22Z M80: Okay, will try that.  The one I posted works for alists.
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2015-09-17T13:29:14Z M80: Oki great, works. Thx you two!
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2015-09-17T13:50:23Z clintm: Shinmera: forgot to say thanks for the pointer to that program.
2015-09-17T13:50:31Z clintm: Shinmera: so, erm, thanks!
2015-09-17T13:51:35Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2015-09-17T14:36:35Z clintm: Shinmera: Are you still around, by chance?
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2015-09-17T14:38:19Z Shinmera: What's up?
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2015-09-17T14:40:05Z clintm: I made a test app from one of your examples just to make sure I can generate working applications.  No problems there, but all of the apps so far throw an access violation when they quit.  I have read that the alien symbol warnings are not a problem, but haven't seen anything about that.
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2015-09-17T14:40:15Z clintm: So far it's only when you quit.  Have you ever seen that?
2015-09-17T14:40:27Z Shinmera: It's a known problem on windows
2015-09-17T14:40:31Z Shinmera: I don't know how to fix it.
2015-09-17T14:40:38Z clintm: ok, so it's not just me.  Awesome.  I can work with that.
2015-09-17T14:40:49Z Shinmera: Since it's only on quit (I can only guess it's something with unloading dlls) I haven't given it much priority.
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2015-09-17T14:41:17Z clintm: Yea, that's fine - it's not like it throws up a warning dialog or anything.  If you blink you'll miss it.
2015-09-17T14:41:41Z Shinmera: In the latest Qtools it'll actually avoid opening a console at all
2015-09-17T14:41:53Z Shinmera: so it shouldn't be noticeable unless you launch it form a term.
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2015-09-17T14:42:29Z clintm: One last question, I swear: The only reference I can find to setting the windows executable type in asdf is commit to asdf that I don't seem to have.  Is there another way to set that flag or should I check out the latest greatest asdf into local-projects?
2015-09-17T14:43:03Z Shinmera: I'm sorry, I don't quite know what you're asking
2015-09-17T14:43:06Z clintm: :gui versus :console (i think it's :console)
2015-09-17T14:43:13Z Shinmera: Ah, that's what I just mentioned.
2015-09-17T14:43:33Z clintm: Oh, ok, I'll check out the latest qtools and use that then.
2015-09-17T14:43:33Z Shinmera: If you wait for Quicklisp to update or clone Qtools (and qt-libs) from git that should already be in.
2015-09-17T14:43:40Z clintm: hehe
2015-09-17T14:43:57Z clintm: on it!  And thank you again for qtools and all of the help. :)
2015-09-17T14:44:01Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2015-09-17T18:28:34Z sjl: this might be a stupid question, but how can I check if a Lisp stream is closed?
2015-09-17T18:28:59Z sjl: e.g.: I have a flexi stream backed by an in-memory flexi stream that some thread is going to write data to
2015-09-17T18:28:59Z dlowe: sjl: open-stream-p
2015-09-17T18:29:00Z Bicyclidine: sjl: open-stream-p?
2015-09-17T18:29:13Z sjl: I want to consume the data from another thread until there's nothing left
2015-09-17T18:29:20Z sjl: oh that sounds promising
2015-09-17T18:29:30Z dlowe: nothing left is an end of file condition
2015-09-17T18:29:43Z dlowe: unless your stream closes after receiving an end of file
2015-09-17T18:29:47Z sjl: I might be doing this in a stupid way because I'm new
2015-09-17T18:29:57Z sjl: (defparameter s (flex:make-in-memory-output-stream))
2015-09-17T18:30:11Z sjl: ... make a flexi stream on top, and write to it from somethread
2015-09-17T18:30:21Z sjl: then I read with (flex:octets-to-string (flex:get-output-stream-sequence s) :external-format :utf-8)
2015-09-17T18:30:25Z sjl: in a separate thread
2015-09-17T18:31:03Z sjl: once the first thread is done it'll close the stream
2015-09-17T18:31:14Z sjl: but the second needs to know when to stop reading data
2015-09-17T18:31:44Z sjl: and (flex:get-output-stream-sequence s) just returns empty vectors forever once there's no more data left -- it doesn't throw any kind of error
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2015-09-17T18:49:29Z pjb: sjl: I'm just implementing pipe-streams.
2015-09-17T18:51:17Z pjb: sjl: Check pipe-stream.lisp in https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/clext
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2015-09-17T19:05:52Z aeth: Is there ever a difference between these two things? (lambda (x) (format t "~%~S " x)) (lambda (x) (print x) nil))
2015-09-17T19:05:59Z aeth: Or prin1 and just "~S"
2015-09-17T19:07:23Z aeth: or princ and just "~A"
2015-09-17T19:07:47Z aeth: Reading the hyperspec, it doesn't look like there should be a difference unless I'm mistaken.
2015-09-17T19:08:38Z jackdaniel: there shouldn't - did you experienced any?
2015-09-17T19:08:41Z jackdaniel: s/did/have/
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2015-09-17T19:13:07Z aeth: Not recently. I think I confused the three in the past.
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2015-09-17T20:00:22Z moredhel: hey all, looking to run clack and bind it to my public ip. how can I do this?
2015-09-17T20:03:37Z jackdaniel: moredhel: set up nginx/apache and proxy it to clack's port
2015-09-17T20:04:08Z moredhel: I'm trying to set it up in docker. so that could be difficult
2015-09-17T20:04:16Z moredhel: well, it _can_ be done, but major hacks
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2015-09-17T20:08:48Z coont: does anyone know how khan academy programmed their programming tutorials?
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2015-09-17T20:12:04Z jackdaniel: moredhel: then you should wait since I don't know good method. I'm sure somebody more knowledgable on this will appear soon.
2015-09-17T20:12:36Z moredhel: thanks :), gonna mess around with it then
2015-09-17T20:12:40Z moredhel: and mebe read the source.
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2015-09-17T20:50:35Z moredhel: found it :)
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2015-09-17T21:09:18Z bjorkintosh: why do i get: error in process filter: Error: Package SB-COLD does not exist when i do (ed 'ed)?
2015-09-17T21:09:28Z bjorkintosh: it works with other things. just not itself?
2015-09-17T21:09:42Z bjorkintosh: it does say SB-COLD does not exist, but why not?
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2015-09-17T21:15:49Z bjorkintosh: sources are installed as well. am i missing some files or packages?
2015-09-17T21:17:32Z Bicyclidine: sb-cold is not supposed to exist in the normal runtime, i think
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2015-09-17T21:17:56Z Bicyclidine: What version is this?
2015-09-17T21:18:27Z bjorkintosh: of sbcl?
2015-09-17T21:18:34Z Bicyclidine: yes.
2015-09-17T21:18:43Z bjorkintosh: 1.2.4.debian
2015-09-17T21:19:01Z bjorkintosh: an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.
2015-09-17T21:20:10Z Bicyclidine: you'll probably get a better error if you upgrade a bit, on my 1.2.13i do
2015-09-17T21:20:14Z Oladon: bjorkintosh: 1.2.4 is pretty old... try installing a new version
2015-09-17T21:20:33Z bjorkintosh: oh. i got it from apt-get
2015-09-17T21:20:33Z Oladon: newer*
2015-09-17T21:20:39Z bjorkintosh: i'll look into it.
2015-09-17T21:20:43Z Oladon: Yeah, debian's package repos are usually pretty outdated
2015-09-17T21:20:49Z bjorkintosh: and i'm running 15.04...
2015-09-17T21:20:51Z bjorkintosh: alright.
2015-09-17T21:20:57Z bjorkintosh: i'll update it then.
2015-09-17T21:21:02Z bjorkintosh: thanks.
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2015-09-17T21:21:44Z Bicyclidine: ed isn't usually used, by the way. by default sbcl's just errors.
2015-09-17T21:22:13Z bjorkintosh: right.
2015-09-17T21:22:29Z bjorkintosh: it allows one to pop open a new buffer though.
2015-09-17T21:22:34Z bjorkintosh: fun times after that :)
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2015-09-17T21:47:17Z mordocai: So I saw a few no longer maintained attempts at having a Common Lisp repl as system shell with all the usual system shell stuff (pipes, running programs, backgrounding/foregrounding, etc). Does anyone know of a maintained one that is a useful bash/zsh replacement for normal use? [I'm guessing no]
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2015-09-17T21:53:19Z Wojciech_K: mordocai, there's eshell in emacs
2015-09-17T21:55:01Z mordocai: Wojciech_K: True, maybe I should learn to use it more but at least currently it just feels like bash implemented in elisp to me
2015-09-17T21:55:08Z mordocai: I don't use any special features
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2015-09-18T00:46:49Z spyrosoft: When there is a cond or an if statement as the last statement in a recursive function, does Common Lisp (let's say SBCL) optimize the tail recursion for all cases in the cond or if?
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2015-09-18T01:10:17Z jfe: does quicklisp install systems wherever quicklisp.lisp is?
2015-09-18T01:10:40Z Xach: jfe: No. quicklisp.lisp is the install file. by default it installs to ~/quicklisp/ and that is where downloads go.
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2015-09-18T01:16:29Z jfe: Xach: asdf defines two default directories for storing systems. is it possible to configure quicklisp to use one of those, or alternatively would it work to configure asdf to look in ~/quicklisp/? (the former being preferred)
2015-09-18T01:16:50Z Xach: jfe: quicklisp will load anything asdf has been configured to load
2015-09-18T01:16:56Z Xach: jfe: in preference to what quicklisp itself provides
2015-09-18T01:17:00Z pjb: spyrosoft: this is implementation dependant.
2015-09-18T01:17:50Z jfe: Xach: gotcha. i want to use quicklisp to simplify acquiring systems, but i don’t want to couple my programs/systems to quicklisp, as it’s non-standard (but awesome).
2015-09-18T01:17:52Z pjb: spyrosoft: also, the question is whether your if or cond is a terminal expression. Often it's not the case (depending on the surrounding form, which may be a macro expanding to an unwind-protect or some other form.
2015-09-18T01:18:03Z Xach: jfe: look into quicklisp bundles
2015-09-18T01:18:08Z Xach: it takes QL out of the equation
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2015-09-18T01:19:08Z spyrosoft: pjb: ok
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2015-09-18T01:35:25Z jfe: Xach: very cool. thank you.
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2015-09-18T01:39:54Z Xach: no problem
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2015-09-18T01:58:26Z katco: why does sbcl issue a style warning saying the return value of delete shouldn't be ignored? i thought delete was destructive?
2015-09-18T02:00:25Z rme: Suppose *x* is (1 2 3).  Do (delete 1 *x*).  What do you think *x* is now?
2015-09-18T02:00:42Z katco: rme: i just tested that, it's (2 3)
2015-09-18T02:01:14Z nyef: But it's not portably so.
2015-09-18T02:01:16Z rme: It may also be (1 2 3).
2015-09-18T02:01:22Z katco: rme: what the... the result just changed
2015-09-18T02:01:32Z katco: rme: nyef: ok, thank you :)
2015-09-18T02:01:33Z nyef: Same with SORT, for that matter. (-:
2015-09-18T02:03:08Z katco: but that is interesting... what does "destructive" mean in this case? i took it to mean that the original value would be altered
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2015-09-18T02:08:54Z nyef: katco: The cons cells that make up the list can be modified, but they can also be re-ordered, arbitrary cells can be discarded, and so on.
2015-09-18T02:09:20Z katco: nyef: ahh ok
2015-09-18T02:09:29Z katco: nyef: tyvm for your help ^.^
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2015-09-18T02:09:34Z nyef: You're welcome.
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2015-09-18T02:15:14Z _death: katco: a more suggestive case is where *x* is (1)
2015-09-18T02:15:47Z katco: _death: what makes that a distinguishing case?
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2015-09-18T02:16:30Z _death: katco: what would be the result of deleting 1 from this list
2015-09-18T02:16:45Z katco: _death: nil?
2015-09-18T02:17:05Z _death: katco: right, and how will *x* be set to that result
2015-09-18T02:17:38Z nyef: Especially given that DELETE is a function, not a macro, so it doesn't know anything about *X*.
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2015-09-18T02:18:06Z katco: _death: nyef: hm, i'm afraid i'm out of my depth here. why couldn't *x* just be set to nil?
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2015-09-18T02:18:51Z _death: katco: Lisp passes the _value_ of *X* to the DELETE function
2015-09-18T02:19:12Z katco: _death: oh wow, really? i thought lisp was pass by ref
2015-09-18T02:19:34Z nyef: No, Lisp is pass-by-value. It's just that many (most?) values ARE references.
2015-09-18T02:20:23Z katco: nyef: ah, i see. so (setf *x* '(1)) is storing the value of the list in *x*?
2015-09-18T02:20:48Z nyef: Yes... And you shouldn't mutate that one because it's a literal list, and mutating it is thus undefined behavior.
2015-09-18T02:20:59Z katco: i see
2015-09-18T02:21:16Z nyef: The value that it's storing is actually the identity (a reference to) the CONS cell that makes up the list.
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2015-09-18T02:22:10Z katco: so that's interesting... how do i know if i'm dealing with a ref or a value type? by how they're created?
2015-09-18T02:22:27Z _death: there is no concept of references in Lisp
2015-09-18T02:22:46Z _death: there are just values
2015-09-18T02:22:46Z nyef: The question is more "can this object, whatever it is, be mutated?"
2015-09-18T02:22:55Z White_Flame: the only way you treat a value as a "reference type" is if it's a composite object that the callee can mutate
2015-09-18T02:23:10Z katco: White_Flame: i.e. CLOS?
2015-09-18T02:23:22Z White_Flame: arrays, structures, CLOS objects, cons cells, etc
2015-09-18T02:25:10Z _death: in Lisp, if you wish to have an operator that modifies places (like *X*'s binding), you write a macro.. so for example you can write a macro DELETEF, that would be the (actually correct) equivalent of (SETF place (DELETE object place ...))
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2015-09-18T02:25:40Z _death: in fact, there is a mechanism in Lisp that lets you do it easily.. it's called DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO
2015-09-18T02:25:57Z katco: wow, so much to learn :)
2015-09-18T02:26:09Z katco: i have a long, fun road ahead of me
2015-09-18T02:26:51Z katco: so i guess the next logical question is: do i care which variables are storing mutable types and which aren't
2015-09-18T02:27:22Z katco: i mean obviously i ran into this with delete
2015-09-18T02:27:26Z _death: katco: this DELETEF is actually quite common, so it is already defined in a well-known Lisp system called ALEXANDRIA
2015-09-18T02:27:38Z katco: _death: ah ok. i'm familiar with that lib
2015-09-18T02:27:53Z katco: _death: well the name and it's intended purpose anyway
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2015-09-18T02:28:46Z _death: katco: you care if you use destructive functions.. if you're not sure whether you can modify an object or not, use the nondestructive variant
2015-09-18T02:29:46Z katco: _death: which i assume uses n*2 mem?
2015-09-18T02:29:47Z _death: katco: usually a destructive operator is used when you yourself are the one creating the object.. so for example (loop ... nconc (list ...)) is ok
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2015-09-18T02:31:11Z _death: katco: in the worst case.. for example the result of (remove 1 '(1 2 3)) may just be a cdr away
2015-09-18T02:32:27Z katco: _death: but it has to store a new copy of '(2 3) doesn't it?
2015-09-18T02:32:55Z White_Flame: (1 . (2 3)).  Just reference the (2 3) part
2015-09-18T02:32:56Z _death: no, some (or all) of the input structure may be shared
2015-09-18T02:33:14Z katco: _death: ah because it's non-destructive?
2015-09-18T02:33:49Z _death: it may also be shared in the destructive variant.. unless the CLHS says it returns a fresh one
2015-09-18T02:34:56Z katco: _death: hm, ok. i can tell i need to go back to my lisp koans :)
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2015-09-18T02:37:08Z drmeister: Alright - it looks like I've got Cleavir+Clasp working again and this time using the compacting Memory Pool System garbage collector.
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2015-09-18T02:42:22Z katco: _death: White_Flame: nyef: ty again for taking the time to explain some things
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2015-09-18T02:43:19Z nyef: katco: Another angle you might be interested in trying is figuring out how these things are implemented.
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2015-09-18T02:44:43Z katco: nyef: good suggestion. by looking at the source for various implementations?
2015-09-18T02:45:26Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-09-18T02:45:33Z nyef: Or the internals documentation.
2015-09-18T02:45:52Z nyef: ... It looks like the copy of the SBCL internals documentation on the website is out-of-date?
2015-09-18T02:46:51Z katco: nyef: yeah looks like. 404?
2015-09-18T02:47:19Z nyef: Oh, the cliki is down as well.
2015-09-18T02:47:28Z nyef: Try the "links" section?
2015-09-18T02:47:54Z nyef: But the more up-to-date version can be found by building the internals manual from source.
2015-09-18T02:48:09Z katco: nyef: i have the source, not a bad idea
2015-09-18T02:48:25Z nyef: Or even just reading the texinfo sources for it might help.
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2015-09-18T02:49:51Z nyef: I'd suggest starting with the "objects in memory" section.
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2015-09-18T02:54:25Z katco: nyef: hm, guess this is out of date? http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/
2015-09-18T02:55:04Z nyef: Yeah, that's the one. No objects-in-memory section.
2015-09-18T02:55:11Z katco: nyef: yeah =/
2015-09-18T02:55:33Z nyef: Which is only five and a half years old now.
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2015-09-18T02:55:38Z katco: haha
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2015-09-18T02:55:56Z nyef: ("it's only forever, not long at all!")
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2015-09-18T03:15:42Z Guest4991: In Clisp is there a way to access a Unix named pipe?
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2015-09-18T03:18:11Z White_Flame: katco: I learned the most about the architecture from reading disassemblies of small lisp functions
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2015-09-18T03:20:44Z nyef: Oh!
2015-09-18T03:21:08Z nyef: Also have a look on bitsavers for some of the old TI LispM documentation, particularly "ssdn2".
2015-09-18T03:21:42Z nyef: It explains how things generally worked for the TI Explorer LispMs.
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2015-09-18T03:27:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-18T03:29:32Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-09-18T03:32:06Z Oladon: Evening beach
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2015-09-18T03:43:03Z drmeister: beach: Hello - cclasp is running again and it's running with MPS.
2015-09-18T03:43:22Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-09-18T03:43:39Z drmeister: Should I turn on CLEAVIR-REMOVE-USELESS-INSTRUCTIONS:REMOVE-USELESS-INSTRUCTION
2015-09-18T03:44:12Z beach: Not until you configure it so that it won't remove your own essential instructions.
2015-09-18T03:44:22Z beach: Such as LANDING-PAD or whatever.
2015-09-18T03:45:03Z drmeister: Ah yes.
2015-09-18T03:45:18Z drmeister: How was I supposed to do that again?
2015-09-18T03:45:39Z drmeister: There was a method that I needed to specialize.
2015-09-18T03:46:12Z drmeister: Wait, I made an evernote note on this.
2015-09-18T03:46:14Z beach: Provide methods on INSTRUCTION-CAN-BE-REMOVED-P or something like that.  Those methods should return NIL.
2015-09-18T03:46:28Z beach: You can also look in the source file.
2015-09-18T03:47:25Z drmeister: INSTRUCTION-CAN-BE-REMOVED-P
2015-09-18T03:47:27Z drmeister: Yes
2015-09-18T03:47:47Z drmeister: Hir/Mir instructions
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2015-09-18T03:55:07Z drmeister: You changed it to instruction-may-be-removed-p
2015-09-18T03:55:48Z beach: I didn't change it.  Just didn't remember correctly when I told you.
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2015-09-18T03:59:23Z drmeister: No problem.   My evernote note said the same thing you just said so I assumed you had changed it.
2015-09-18T03:59:43Z drmeister: What is the criterion for deciding if an instruction may or may not be removed?
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2015-09-18T04:00:06Z drmeister: Or are all of my instructions sooo important that I never want them removed?
2015-09-18T04:00:31Z beach: They might be.
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2015-09-18T04:01:01Z beach: drmeister: By default, and instruction is removed if it has a single successor and if it writes only to locations that are never used.
2015-09-18T04:01:40Z beach: You should add a method specialized to your instruction if that is not a good criterion to determine whether it can be removed.
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2015-09-18T04:02:56Z drmeister: Hmmm - here's my instructions:
2015-09-18T04:02:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/laXxJi4z/
2015-09-18T04:03:52Z beach: I think NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION is superfluous, provided it's a subclass of ENTER-INSTRUCTION.
2015-09-18T04:03:53Z drmeister: I guess the ones I absolutely don't want to remove are named-enter-instruction, landing-pad-return-instruction, landing-pad-instruction, indexed-unwind-instruction and throw-instruction.
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2015-09-18T04:04:11Z drmeister: Right
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2015-09-18T04:05:16Z beach: UNWIND-INSTRUCTION is also never removed, so if yours is a subclass, then you do not need that method.
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2015-09-18T04:05:51Z beach: It is always safe to keep instructions, so if you aren't sure, don't have them removed.
2015-09-18T04:06:31Z beach: The special-binding instructions are essential I would think.
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2015-09-18T04:08:50Z drmeister: And anything that inherits from cleavir-ir:multiple-value-call-instruction  could also rely on inheriting the method from the superclass
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2015-09-18T04:09:51Z beach: I am not sure I remembered to define a method for that instruction.
2015-09-18T04:09:57Z beach: You might need to remind me.
2015-09-18T04:11:24Z drmeister: Hmm, you don't
2015-09-18T04:11:28Z drmeister: Should you be?
2015-09-18T04:11:59Z beach: I think so, yes.
2015-09-18T04:14:13Z drmeister: Would you be able to fix it and push a change?
2015-09-18T04:14:33Z drmeister imagines that you are doing it at this moment
2015-09-18T04:14:40Z beach: I am.
2015-09-18T04:14:45Z drmeister: :-)
2015-09-18T04:15:20Z beach: I pushed it.  It has not been tested, nor even compiled.
2015-09-18T04:15:27Z beach: Too early in the morning.
2015-09-18T04:17:14Z beach: Also, I might have forgotten some others that I don't use (yet) for SICL, so I haven't detected the problem (yet).
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2015-09-18T04:55:35Z drmeister: Sorry - got caught up fixing the build system to accommodate changes in sicl.   Ok, I'll compile it and tell you how it turns out tomorrow - thank you!
2015-09-18T04:56:20Z beach: Sure.
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2015-09-18T05:15:46Z drmeister: beach: Do you have some time for another question?   Regarding inlining FUNCALL
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2015-09-18T05:16:06Z beach: Sure.
2015-09-18T05:16:37Z drmeister: Can I do that with Cleavir's inlining capabilities?   It's been a couple of months since I wrote any inlining code and I'm a little rusty.
2015-09-18T05:17:17Z drmeister: Or is there a more obvious way that I'm not seeing at the moment.
2015-09-18T05:17:20Z beach: Let's see...
2015-09-18T05:17:43Z beach: CL:FUNCALL can be trivially expressed as an AST as far as I can see.
2015-09-18T05:18:04Z beach: However, you can't express it as Common Lisp source code.
2015-09-18T05:18:27Z beach: So we probably need another primop to do that.
2015-09-18T05:19:07Z drmeister: Ok, then my uncertainty was based on something.  We have a funcall-instruction but that isn't related to inlining FUNCALL is it?
2015-09-18T05:19:08Z beach: One that looks like FUNCALL, probably, but that does not allow function names.
2015-09-18T05:20:04Z drmeister: I kind of see that - but why not function names? And if only functions can be passed - how does it deal with function names?
2015-09-18T05:20:10Z beach: Right, the FUNCALL-INSTRUCTION is unrelated to the Common Lisp function named FUNCALL.
2015-09-18T05:21:09Z drmeister: Currently the funcall-instruction inserts a "cc_call" intrinsic and it calls cl_funcall which conses a &rest argument - very inefficient.
2015-09-18T05:21:17Z drmeister: I see lots of this in the backtrace.
2015-09-18T05:21:43Z beach: (let ((real-fun (if (functionp fun) fun (fdefinition fun)))) (cleavir-primop:funcall fun ...) something like that.
2015-09-18T05:21:52Z drmeister: Ah.
2015-09-18T05:23:13Z beach: I don't think inlining FUNCALL would make a big difference.  It shouldn't be used very often.
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2015-09-18T05:24:01Z beach: I don't think the FUNCALL-INSTRUCTION should call CL-FUNCALL.
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2015-09-18T05:24:36Z drmeister: By default it doesn't call CL-FUNCALL.   I think CL-FUNCALL is being used by something else.
2015-09-18T05:24:48Z beach: It should put arguments in registers and on the stack and then execute a nativfe CALL instruction.
2015-09-18T05:25:09Z beach: native
2015-09-18T05:25:40Z drmeister: CLOS uses it and the condition system uses it.
2015-09-18T05:25:47Z beach: Ah, yes.  CLOS.
2015-09-18T05:26:04Z beach: The condition system should not be used very often.
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2015-09-18T05:26:34Z drmeister: Right, but that may be why I noticed it.   Whenever there's a crash the condition system will put a bunch of funcall's on the stack.
2015-09-18T05:26:44Z drmeister: But CLOS uses it as well.
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2015-09-18T05:27:47Z beach: OK, so maybe a compiler macro on CL:FUNCALL.
2015-09-18T05:28:06Z drmeister: Ok, well, I'm going to start doing some profiling and testing to see what's up with cclasp+MPS and see if I can identify what's slow in the compiler.
2015-09-18T05:28:06Z beach: No wait...
2015-09-18T05:28:39Z beach: Er, yes, maybe.
2015-09-18T05:28:44Z beach: Sorry, not quite awake yet.
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2015-09-18T05:29:00Z drmeister: That's ok, I'm on the other end of the sleep spectrum.  Falling asleep.
2015-09-18T05:30:03Z beach: Maybe a compiler macro on CL:FUNCALL turning it into (let ((real-fun (if (funcationp fun) fun (fdefinition fun)))) (cleavir-primop:funcall real-fun arg1 arg2 ....))
2015-09-18T05:30:52Z drmeister: Well, the news of the day is as I mentioned cclasp+MPS runs, doesn't crash when I invoke restarts.  stassats is building it. I'm building it on OS X and Linux overnight and tomorrow I'll run it through some tests.
2015-09-18T05:30:53Z beach: Then, we compile the primop into a CALL-AST.
2015-09-18T05:30:55Z drmeister: Sure, I can do that.
2015-09-18T05:31:20Z beach: I'll see what I can do about the primop and compiling it.
2015-09-18T05:31:25Z drmeister: Thank you.
2015-09-18T05:31:36Z drmeister: How is your stuff going?  What are you working on at the moment?
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2015-09-18T05:32:15Z beach: I am working on generalizing the data-flow analyses in Cleavir.
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2015-09-18T05:32:50Z beach: I need to detect more precisely when/where/if nested functions are called/passed.
2015-09-18T05:33:08Z beach: This analysis is needed for lots of other stuff.
2015-09-18T05:33:24Z beach: Like removing redundant tests, type inference, etc.
2015-09-18T05:34:06Z beach: As it turns out, detecting that is also a data-flow problem.
2015-09-18T05:34:12Z zacts: hi lispers
2015-09-18T05:34:21Z drmeister: I see.
2015-09-18T05:34:22Z zacts: did clisp ever find a new maintainer?
2015-09-18T05:34:25Z zacts: gnu clisp
2015-09-18T05:35:34Z drmeister: I'll talk to you tomorrow then - fading fast.
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2015-09-18T05:40:35Z beach: zacts: Someone (I forget who) declared being convinced by my trying to talk him into taking it on.
2015-09-18T05:40:45Z beach: zacts: But I haven't heard anything since.
2015-09-18T05:40:51Z beach: Was it you maybe?
2015-09-18T05:41:20Z zacts: ah not I
2015-09-18T05:41:30Z zacts: but yeah, I just hope clisp becomes maintained
2015-09-18T05:41:38Z zacts: although the more I learn lisp, perhaps I can do it eventually
2015-09-18T05:41:51Z zacts: but I'm not offering this
2015-09-18T05:41:59Z beach: Oh, it sounded like you were thinking of taking it on.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
2015-09-18T05:42:04Z zacts: I'm in school, and have much newbie programming to learn
2015-09-18T05:42:15Z zacts: oh no, I didn't present my question well :-D
2015-09-18T05:42:31Z zacts: It's like almost midnight where I'm at, and I've been up for >= 13 hours
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2015-09-18T05:42:45Z zacts: so I'm 1/2 nutty
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2015-09-18T05:43:00Z zacts: my main reason for asking though, is that I hope to see it not rot
2015-09-18T05:43:15Z zacts: also I think clisp supports more platforms than sbcl?
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2015-09-18T05:44:46Z beach: zacts: Unfortunately, there is a lot of work and few people to do it.  I hope more people will pitch in, even on small things that don't require much knowledge.
2015-09-18T05:45:19Z zacts: well, I'm a programming newbie, maybe by next year I could gain the skills to actually contribute?
2015-09-18T05:45:24Z zacts: we'll see
2015-09-18T05:45:29Z zacts: ;-)
2015-09-18T05:45:33Z beach: That would be good.
2015-09-18T05:45:38Z zacts: I don't know how much C knowledge is required though
2015-09-18T05:45:44Z zacts: but I do want to learn C too
2015-09-18T05:45:52Z zacts: I'm starting with lisp before C
2015-09-18T05:46:08Z beach: Oh, I was referring to Common Lisp stuff in general, not just to CLISP.
2015-09-18T05:46:26Z beach: Maintaining CLISP certainly requires good C knowledge.
2015-09-18T05:46:40Z beach: They use C macros in interesting ways as I recall.
2015-09-18T05:47:30Z zacts: oh I see yeah
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2015-09-18T05:47:42Z zacts: oh well for sure CL stuff in general I will be contributing to
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2015-09-18T05:49:47Z beach: Great!
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2015-09-18T05:56:48Z mjl: beach: I think it was jebes who was thinking about picking up CLISP maintenance.
2015-09-18T05:57:13Z mjl: Don't know about current status though.
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2015-09-18T06:01:25Z kami`: Good morning
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2015-09-18T06:03:04Z beach: mjl: Hmm.  It might have been.  I don't recognize it, though.
2015-09-18T06:03:14Z beach: hello kami.
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2015-09-18T06:04:30Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-09-18T06:09:51Z mjl: beach: according to the archives, jebes talked about it 2015-07-20T16:17:11Z, but you do not seem to appear in that conversation, so there may have been others, that I have missed.
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2015-09-18T07:45:00Z zyg: regarding sbcl, in functions why are free variables slower compared to function parameters?
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2015-09-18T07:47:56Z Shinmera: What does that mean?
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2015-09-18T07:49:06Z Shinmera: How are you measuring whether "variables are slow"?
2015-09-18T07:50:55Z Zhivago: Presumably you mean variables captured by a closure?
2015-09-18T07:51:02Z zyg: Shinmera: I'll try to cook up an example
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2015-09-18T07:54:07Z zyg: Zhivago: yes, by closure, not by dynamic scope
2015-09-18T07:55:27Z Zhivago: Well, then that's probably the reason.
2015-09-18T07:55:33Z Zhivago: They have worse locality.
2015-09-18T07:55:44Z Zhivago: And another level of indirection.
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2015-09-18T08:01:04Z zyg: Zhivago: The function argument could for example be stored on the stack prior to calling the function, and the closed over variable is (I assume) a data-area associated with the function, ie working just like the stack. I guess DISASSEMBLE has the answer, but you would have to understand it.
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2015-09-18T08:02:35Z Zhivago: The stack isn't a data-area associated with the function.
2015-09-18T08:03:11Z Zhivago: It's a data-area associated with the function invocation, perhaps -- and it tends to have good cache locality and magical instruction support.
2015-09-18T08:03:36Z Zhivago: Closed over values are not associated with the function invocation, do not have good cache locality, and have no magical instruction support.
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2015-09-18T08:11:27Z zyg: Zhivago: I did not thought about the cache. Thanks!
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2015-09-18T08:21:17Z jackdaniel:  hello
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2015-09-18T08:40:55Z kami: Hello jackdaniel
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2015-09-18T09:03:57Z Vityok: hi all, imagine there was a scanf function in Lisp, what would you use it for?
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2015-09-18T09:04:22Z Vityok: for example, parsing IP address, etc.
2015-09-18T09:04:36Z Vityok: looking for a good usage example idea for documentation
2015-09-18T09:05:16Z jackdaniel: pattern matching ;)
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2015-09-18T09:12:16Z pjb: Vityok: (defun scanf (format) (loop repeat (count #\% format) collect (read)))  (scanf "%d %a %d") 1 hello 2 --> (1 HELLO 2)
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2015-09-18T09:14:59Z flip214: Vityok: does that use FORMAT definitions, or scanf(3) things?
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2015-09-18T09:16:29Z pjb: Youm cannot use format specifiers.
2015-09-18T09:16:43Z pjb: 1- format control strings will lead to ambiguous parsing.
2015-09-18T09:17:59Z pjb: 2- format specifiers are underspecified; for example, ~D can print anything (right aligned) and if you expect to read an integer, in lisp you can read it as #xff #o77 #b11 #36rZZ 42 or 33. !
2015-09-18T09:18:22Z pjb: (underspecified for a scanner).
2015-09-18T09:20:57Z jackdaniel: win 11
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2015-09-18T09:22:57Z pjb: katco: "ah, i see. so (setf *x* '(1)) is storing the value of the list in *x*?" NO!  the "value" of the list would be a cons cell.   Cons cells are not stored in variables. Only references to cons cells can be stored into a variable.
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2015-09-18T09:25:49Z flip214: well, *my* cons cells store references to symbols, whose value slot contains the reference to the cons cell. ;}
2015-09-18T09:27:23Z pjb: Fun can be had.
2015-09-18T09:29:55Z pjb: zacts: I wanted to be clisp maintainer, but my tax collector said I must stop working for free, to pay taxes.
2015-09-18T09:30:31Z pjb: zacts: so the position is still available.
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2015-09-18T10:03:30Z attila_lendvai: pjb: that's a joke, right?
2015-09-18T10:04:33Z Vityok: flip214: scanf definitions
2015-09-18T10:05:13Z Vityok: pjb: thanks for an idea
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2015-09-18T10:40:26Z pjb: attila_lendvai: what part?
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2015-09-18T10:43:35Z flip214: pjb: that the position is still available.
2015-09-18T10:43:59Z pjb: No, no joke. You can still become clisp maintainer. The position is free.
2015-09-18T10:46:46Z jackdaniel: ,hue
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2015-09-18T10:48:06Z yvm: How to defctype for enum in CFFI?
2015-09-18T10:49:23Z attila_lendvai: pjb: I mean the part where an actual tax collector complaining that you have no income
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2015-09-18T10:49:44Z jackdaniel: yvm: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=enum+cffi
2015-09-18T10:50:53Z yvm: Ok, never mind.
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2015-09-18T10:55:45Z jackdaniel: you may add "lisp" as last word and even "I'm feeling lucky" should work ;)
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2015-09-18T11:41:16Z jackdaniel: if (directory …) with :wild-inferiors encounters broken symbolic link – it's both OK to signal a file-error and to ignore it, right? Can't find that in the spec so it's implementation-dependant?
2015-09-18T11:44:51Z Guthur: what do you mean signal and ignore it?
2015-09-18T11:45:10Z Guthur: they seem at odds with each other
2015-09-18T11:46:22Z Shinmera: He's asking if an implementation may choose either.
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2015-09-18T11:46:59Z Guthur: yeah, but that's the point, how can it signal and ignore it
2015-09-18T11:47:03Z jackdaniel: what Shinmera said
2015-09-18T11:47:06Z Guthur: if you signal you are not ignoring it
2015-09-18T11:47:08Z Shinmera: No
2015-09-18T11:47:15Z Shinmera: I said /either/
2015-09-18T11:47:17Z Shinmera: not /both/
2015-09-18T11:47:42Z Guthur: ah, yes you did, but jackdaniel did not
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2015-09-18T11:47:52Z Shinmera: It can be read both ways.
2015-09-18T11:47:53Z jackdaniel: /s/and/or/
2015-09-18T11:47:55Z Guthur: but maybe he meant what you said
2015-09-18T11:48:21Z xtalmath: does lisp allow for multitasking i.e. having multiple pieces of code running simultaneously?
2015-09-18T11:48:32Z Guthur: i think the spec is pretty clear, it says "an error of type file-error is signaled."
2015-09-18T11:48:33Z Shinmera: xtalmath: Depends on your implementation.
2015-09-18T11:48:49Z xtalmath: Shinmera: gnu clisp?
2015-09-18T11:48:59Z Shinmera: xtalmath: Depends on your target platform, but probably yes.
2015-09-18T11:49:15Z xtalmath: Shinmera: linux, x window system... ubuntu in specific
2015-09-18T11:49:24Z Shinmera: xtalmath: Then the answer is yes.
2015-09-18T11:49:40Z Shinmera: xtalmath: Have a look at bordeaux-threads if you want a portable wrapper library across implementations.
2015-09-18T11:49:55Z xtalmath: Shinmera: then one more specific question: is it possible to wait for user input, but then have another process cancel this request for user input?
2015-09-18T11:50:06Z Guthur: jackdaniel: the conformation is here http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/01_db.htm
2015-09-18T11:50:12Z jackdaniel: Guthur: not really - it says that if the attempt to obtain a directory listing is not successful, but broken symlink doesn't have to be a directory
2015-09-18T11:50:19Z Guthur: check "An error is signaled"
2015-09-18T11:50:31Z Guthur: that should confirm what the behaviour should be
2015-09-18T11:50:40Z Shinmera: xtalmath: You can interrupt threads and execute code in them, yes. But it's not a safe method.
2015-09-18T11:51:07Z jackdaniel: Guthur: read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm
2015-09-18T11:51:19Z xtalmath: Shinmera: what does safe mean here?
2015-09-18T11:51:21Z Shinmera: Now a different question: Swank can be connected to multiple clients at the same time. Is there a way to get a list of all output streams to currently connected clients?
2015-09-18T11:52:04Z Guthur: jackdaniel: i did it says "an error of type file-error is signaled." which to me corresponds to that error terminology i posted, no?
2015-09-18T11:52:28Z jackdaniel: Guthur: read first part of the sentence - when "an error of type file-error is signalled" ?
2015-09-18T11:53:17Z Shinmera: xtalmath: Unwinding in case of erros and similar situations can end up in rather unexpected behaviour.
2015-09-18T11:53:20Z Shinmera: *errors
2015-09-18T11:53:30Z jackdaniel: Guthur: if we have wild-inferiors then we go into directories recursively - you may have broken link to another file somewhere deep down the tree
2015-09-18T11:53:53Z Guthur: jackdaniel: can you list the directory successfully in that case?
2015-09-18T11:54:32Z jackdaniel: Guthur: obviously. I can do two things: signal an error or just ignore matching files without truename
2015-09-18T11:54:55Z jackdaniel: not matching files*
2015-09-18T11:55:47Z jackdaniel: consider (directory #P"/home/jack/**/*.asd") and presence of broken symlink, let's say .#emacs-leftover - it doesn't match "asd", but you don't know if it was directory - for OS it's just a broken symlink
2015-09-18T11:56:51Z Guthur: ok, i suppose you can only go with information at hand, if you don't know it is a directory then it is not a directory, no?
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2015-09-18T11:57:34Z Guthur: sorry by the way, i mis intepretted your situation, more complex than it first thought
2015-09-18T11:57:45Z Guthur: it/I
2015-09-18T11:58:07Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: there is *new-connection-hook*, maybe you could do something with arguments given to it
2015-09-18T11:58:58Z jackdaniel: Guthur: np. I just want to confirm if it's an unspecified behavior
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2015-09-18T12:01:02Z Guthur: jackdaniel: tbh, to me it does not sound like an error
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2015-09-18T12:02:19Z jackdaniel: and what with matching symbolic links?
2015-09-18T12:03:53Z jackdaniel: for instance: my-system.asd which is broken
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2015-09-18T12:07:44Z Guthur: I think it should be listed, because it is member of the directory list
2015-09-18T12:07:55Z Guthur: the fact it is a broken link being irrelevant
2015-09-18T12:08:28Z jackdaniel: it is relevant, because spec says, that truenames must be returned
2015-09-18T12:08:30Z Shinmera: Bleh, the glossary entry for file is amazingly unhelpful
2015-09-18T12:08:47Z Guthur: oh, ummmm
2015-09-18T12:08:50Z jackdaniel: yeah, I share that impression
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2015-09-18T12:10:24Z Shinmera: If I defined things I wouldn't list the broken symlink since I wouldn't consider it a file.
2015-09-18T12:10:48Z Shinmera: But given that CL doesn't really define what a concrete file is at all that's not really a considerable angle.
2015-09-18T12:11:25Z Shinmera: I guess you can do the classic thing: See what all the other implementations do
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2015-09-18T12:14:34Z jackdaniel: they are pretty consistant with non-matching links. When they match varies
2015-09-18T12:15:05Z Guthur: yeah it's interesting
2015-09-18T12:15:21Z jackdaniel: anway it ought to be documented if not covered in the spec
2015-09-18T12:15:31Z Guthur: SBCL prints the broken links name, but the truename of normal (non-broken) symbolic links
2015-09-18T12:15:31Z jackdaniel: /s/ought/needs/
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2015-09-18T12:16:23Z Shinmera: Hm. The last thing to look at is if UIOP already tries to normalise this case
2015-09-18T12:18:24Z Guthur: i suppose you could intrepret a broken symlink  as just a file, it no long references anything but still exists as (special)file
2015-09-18T12:18:53Z Shinmera: Right. It all comes down to what you regard as a 'file'
2015-09-18T12:18:57Z jackdaniel: Guthur: it wouldn't be consistent - if it points to something it's not a file, but if it doesn't it is
2015-09-18T12:19:00Z Shinmera: Which CL just shrugs at.
2015-09-18T12:19:29Z jackdaniel: I'll signal an error on matching files, but will ignore "wannabe" directories
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2015-09-18T12:19:50Z jackdaniel: without the comma :p
2015-09-18T12:20:39Z pjb: attila_lendvai: well, sending reminders to pay taxes when I don't have any money left reduces to just that, doesn't it?  And there's the explicit menace of sending the bailiffs, which could deprive me from any computer, since that's the only things I own. (Not that second hand computers are worth anything).
2015-09-18T12:20:44Z jackdaniel: what will mimic CCL behavior btw
2015-09-18T12:20:53Z Guthur: links are still files, just special, afict
2015-09-18T12:21:12Z pjb: Really, paying taxes is the only reason we work for money…  Tomatoes are cheap compared to taxes.
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2015-09-18T12:22:01Z pjb: (And since paying taxes only serves to pay the interests "due" to banksters…)
2015-09-18T12:22:28Z Guthur: pjb: don't think about it too much, it's only depressing
2015-09-18T12:22:48Z pjb: Yes, only a couple of times a year…
2015-09-18T12:23:14Z jackdaniel: Guthur: yes but consistency is important here. You can have a pathname to symbolic link but invoking truename should signal a file-error (that's at least interpretation I'm fine with)
2015-09-18T12:23:17Z attila_lendvai: pjb: I see. although, I work for money because it enables a very efficient cooperation among strangers (except when fiat money raigns). care to fix that bug for a few silver coins? :)
2015-09-18T12:24:00Z jackdaniel: so we end with definition of money as a tool of control
2015-09-18T12:24:04Z pjb: "efficient" here is another way for slave.  They don't slave directly for you, they slave for their tax collector, ie. banksters masters; but it's the same.
2015-09-18T12:24:18Z attila_lendvai: I'm living off my savings now, and I really hope I won't get any bugging from the gov.
2015-09-18T12:24:33Z Shinmera: This is very much not about CL anymore. Please move it to #lispcafe.
2015-09-18T12:24:43Z pjb: We're walking amongst living deads.
2015-09-18T12:25:03Z pjb: Right. Sorry.
2015-09-18T12:25:10Z Shinmera: Guthur: Can you still read/write a symlink file?
2015-09-18T12:25:14Z attila_lendvai: pjb: that's only true if the money society uses is not equally hard to get for everyone (and is loaded with interest when created). but it's becoming wildly offtopic... :)
2015-09-18T12:25:24Z Shinmera: Guthur: Being able to read/write is what makes or breaks a "file" in my opinion.
2015-09-18T12:27:51Z Shinmera: Unix' idea of "everything is a file, lol" really doesn't do us any favours in this.
2015-09-18T12:30:39Z pjb: Shinmera: unix's idea is not that "everything
2015-09-18T12:30:50Z pjb: 's a file"; it's that everything's an _object_.
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2015-09-18T12:31:29Z pjb: Some objects have methods like open, link, unlink; Some other objects have methods like read write close (and for some subclasses sync fcntl ioctl).
2015-09-18T12:31:41Z sjl: is there a way to find a symbol from a string of a possibly package-qualified name?
2015-09-18T12:32:01Z Xach: sjl: read-from-string is one crude way
2015-09-18T12:32:13Z sjl: Xach: will that also intern it if it's not found?
2015-09-18T12:32:17Z Xach: yes
2015-09-18T12:32:19Z sjl: hrm
2015-09-18T12:32:24Z Xach: crude
2015-09-18T12:32:25Z Shinmera: sjl: The other crude way is split by colon and use FIND-PACKAGE, FIND-SYMBOL
2015-09-18T12:32:34Z Xach: so crude
2015-09-18T12:32:37Z sjl: find-symbol is almost what I want, but doesn't handle the package qualification
2015-09-18T12:32:40Z sjl: yeah
2015-09-18T12:32:45Z Xach: then you have to think about \ and |
2015-09-18T12:32:48Z Shinmera: Yep.
2015-09-18T12:32:53Z pjb: Shinmera: of course, in 1969, when unix was invented, simula was only one year old, and Smalltalk wasn't invented yet, so Alan Kay hadn't had made the error of naming that "object oriented" yet; this is why we say in unix everything's a file, instead of everything's an object, instead of everything receives messages.
2015-09-18T12:32:54Z Xach: you start to rething your life choices at that point
2015-09-18T12:32:55Z sjl: yeah
2015-09-18T12:32:57Z sjl: ugh
2015-09-18T12:33:01Z Shinmera: So, doing it right requires a parser --as so often the case--
2015-09-18T12:33:03Z Zhivago: Um. open, link, unlink are operations on filenames, not files (or devices), per se.
2015-09-18T12:33:34Z Shinmera: pjb: Doesn't really matter for this problem.
2015-09-18T12:33:38Z pjb: You might then want to go home AND use some drug stick.
2015-09-18T12:33:40Z Zhivago: And there are plenty of 'objects' in unix that can't be addressed with an fd.
2015-09-18T12:33:53Z pjb: Shinmera: ok, it was just some perspective.
2015-09-18T12:34:26Z pjb: unix naming is not uniform, yes.
2015-09-18T12:34:55Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: Guthur: thanks for help with groking this
2015-09-18T12:35:17Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: You might want to want for beach as well. He'd probably be interested in this discussion.
2015-09-18T12:35:21Z Shinmera: *want to wait
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2015-09-18T12:35:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: it's more useful to ignore the problems with symlinks and unaccessible directories or files with directory, given the paucity of CL functions to deal with the file system.
2015-09-18T12:35:41Z Xach: sjl: out of curiosity, where do these strings come from?
2015-09-18T12:35:54Z sjl: Xach: I'm attempting to write an NREPL server for common lisp
2015-09-18T12:36:04Z sjl: so they'll eventually come from e.g. an editor
2015-09-18T12:36:07Z jackdaniel: pjb: it's fine until code actually breaks ;p
2015-09-18T12:36:12Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yeah, I'll do that
2015-09-18T12:36:28Z sjl: like my cursor in on "bt:make-thread" in Vim and I hit "show documentation"
2015-09-18T12:36:31Z Xach: sjl: I don't know what nrepl is, but the R stands for "read-from-string", approximately
2015-09-18T12:36:49Z sjl: nrepl is basically the clojure community's replacement for swank
2015-09-18T12:37:06Z sjl: it's a protocol for interacting with a running process
2015-09-18T12:37:22Z jackdaniel: pjb: ie when you scan directories for #P"systems/**/*.asd" and you have bunch of broken symlinks there
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2015-09-18T12:37:43Z pjb: jackdaniel: in ccl: (directory "/tmp/**/*.*") --> > Debug: File #P"/tmp/.#database.clisp" does not exist. In clisp (directory "/tmp/**/*.*") --> *** - OS-FILE-ERROR(EACCES): Permission denied
2015-09-18T12:37:55Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'd 1+ pjb. In my opinion broken symlinks should just be discarded as far as possible.
2015-09-18T12:38:12Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: But again, maybe, hopefully, beach has some more useful input on this.
2015-09-18T12:38:29Z pjb: Unless you are implementing POSIX:FTW, in which case you deal with them as specified.
2015-09-18T12:38:54Z jackdaniel: I'm going to do what CCL does - ignore not matching broken symlinks and signal an error if broken symlink matches
2015-09-18T12:39:01Z jackdaniel: filespec
2015-09-18T12:39:02Z sjl: Xach: Ideally I'd like to avoid interning a symbol in the curent package if the user asks for documentation about a symbol that doesn't exist
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2015-09-18T12:39:20Z pjb: In clisp, even: (directory "/tmp/*/") -> *** - OS-FILE-ERROR(ENOENT): No such file or directory ; so you cannot get simply the list of elements, even when you can do a ls -d /tmp/*
2015-09-18T12:39:28Z Xach: sjl: understood. readtables make it even more complicated, too
2015-09-18T12:39:37Z sjl: yeah
2015-09-18T12:39:50Z jackdaniel: it seems the most sane approach and in line with spec (as far as spec goes)
2015-09-18T12:40:05Z sjl: I think I get about 90% of the common cases with the crude split+find-(symbol|package) strategy
2015-09-18T12:40:34Z Shinmera: sjl: I'd say 99%.
2015-09-18T12:40:41Z sjl: yeah probably
2015-09-18T12:40:46Z Guthur: Shinmera: possibly, I must admit I am in two minds about whether it's an error, can see both
2015-09-18T12:40:46Z sjl: I think I can live with that
2015-09-18T12:40:50Z sjl: certainly at least for now
2015-09-18T12:41:00Z Guthur: jackdaniel: no probs, it was an interesting question
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2015-09-18T12:43:49Z Shinmera: sjl: Actually, I'd say much higher than 99%. I have yet to see colons in symbol names in actual code.
2015-09-18T12:44:04Z pjb: jackdaniel: for example, I would argue that since DIRECTORY must return the TRUENAME, which is understood in general to be the resolved pathname of the symlinks, if you have dangling symlinks anywhere in the chain, then you can consider there is no file referenced at all, and therefore the symlink is null and void.
2015-09-18T12:44:17Z sjl: Shinmera: You don't ever see (flex:make-flexi-stream foo)?
2015-09-18T12:44:31Z pjb: Shinmera: I've had some symbols with colons.
2015-09-18T12:44:33Z Shinmera: sjl: No, I mean I don't ever see foo:|BLA:BLA|
2015-09-18T12:44:38Z sjl: ahh
2015-09-18T12:44:59Z sjl: Yeah I think the pathological cases can wait for a while
2015-09-18T12:45:00Z pjb: Shinmera: notice that in emacs lisp,  (symbol-name :keyword) --> ":keyword"
2015-09-18T12:45:12Z Shinmera: pjb: Fortunately we aren't dealing with elisp :)
2015-09-18T12:45:24Z sjl: yeah someone else can write nrepl.elisp
2015-09-18T12:45:26Z pjb: Sometimes you deal with both, eg. swank<->slime rpc.
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2015-09-18T12:59:52Z Guthur: sjl: I'm curious as to the motivation for CL nrepl; from my experience the cider/nrepl development experience is no where near SLIME/SWANK, this might not be nrepl's fault mind you.
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2015-09-18T13:08:01Z Shinmera: I think having alternatives to Emacs+Slime would be good irregardles.
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2015-09-18T13:13:28Z Guthur: Shinmera: sure, maybe that's the motivation, I was geniunely interested
2015-09-18T13:14:27Z Guthur: I use Clojure during my day job and i find the tooling terrible, not that that lies solely with nrepl or anything
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2015-09-18T13:36:56Z Vityok: finally, I've managed to do scanf-a-like in Lisp and write a blog post about it https://lispnews.wordpress.com/2015/09/18/introducing-scanf-in-common-lisp/
2015-09-18T13:37:43Z Cymew: Anyone know how this ningle (https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle) thingie works?
2015-09-18T13:38:02Z Cymew: I tried the Usage example, and it started a server.
2015-09-18T13:38:09Z Cymew: But, how do I stop it?
2015-09-18T13:38:46Z eudoxia: you need to call clack:stop on the handler object
2015-09-18T13:38:50Z eudoxia: which is what's returned by clackup
2015-09-18T13:39:22Z Cymew: Oh, so it's returned by CLACKUP. It's not the *app* object?
2015-09-18T13:40:12Z Cymew: I guess I should have learnt by now that in lisp everything returns a value you might need later...
2015-09-18T13:40:24Z eudoxia: ye
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2015-09-18T13:47:48Z Cymew: That worked better
2015-09-18T13:47:53Z Cymew: eudoxia: Thanks!
2015-09-18T13:48:05Z eudoxia: yw
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2015-09-18T14:19:32Z Cymew: Seems like I'm encountering the cl libs quality assurance problem. Anyone know if cl-rss is up to snuff, or if any alternative is?
2015-09-18T14:20:22Z Shinmera: Cymew: Depending on what you need to do just using lQuery straight up might be easiest.
2015-09-18T14:20:42Z Cymew: I'd like to parse rss feeds, not generate them
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2015-09-18T14:21:06Z Shinmera: That's what I'm saying.
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2015-09-18T14:22:01Z Cymew: Looking at lQuery right now
2015-09-18T14:22:09Z Cymew: Looks like an option indeed.
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2015-09-18T14:22:42Z Shinmera: Cymew: Make sure to mind the note at the bottom of How To http://shinmera.github.io/plump/
2015-09-18T14:22:47Z Cymew: web programming is such a mess. Maybe I should back off while I still can.
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2015-09-18T14:24:04Z Cymew: Thanks for the warning.
2015-09-18T14:24:33Z Shinmera: It applies to RSS feeds especially due to the <link> tag that gets special treatment in HTML :/
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2015-09-18T14:26:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cymew: this looks like it might make things easy too: https://github.com/madnificent/SEXML
2015-09-18T14:26:53Z Cymew: Shinmera: Actually, my head hurst as soon as I look at this. Your stuff looks like a sanity preserving layer, though.
2015-09-18T14:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, I think it does the opposite of what you want.
2015-09-18T14:27:14Z Shinmera: Cymew: This is pretty shitey code, but it should still work https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/rss.lisp#L112
2015-09-18T14:27:29Z Shinmera really wants to rewrite Colleen, but lacks the time :(
2015-09-18T14:28:02Z Cymew: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, that is backwards
2015-09-18T14:29:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've a bunch of code that seems to work pretty well for RSS2 here: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-openid-connect/blob/master/rss.lisp
2015-09-18T14:29:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's not necessarily well-written or anything, I'm in the process of cleaning up a prototype into something that actually works reliably
2015-09-18T14:29:59Z Cymew: Colleen can chomp through rss? Is that useful for a irc bot?
2015-09-18T14:30:18Z Shinmera: It used to bring update notes and stuff to my channel
2015-09-18T14:31:13Z Cymew: I see
2015-09-18T14:31:17Z Shinmera: Note too that Atom and RSS are slightly different.
2015-09-18T14:31:29Z Shinmera: Hence the very similar but not quite same code paths in the bit there
2015-09-18T14:31:42Z Cymew: If only I did not suck so much at reading other people's code...
2015-09-18T14:31:54Z Shinmera: It's not pretty code, I'll give you that.
2015-09-18T14:31:55Z Cymew: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, I'll take a look at that as well.
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2015-09-18T14:33:12Z Cymew: I can use a libray with a published API, but I really like some good examples. Otherwise I've found it goes quicker for me to rewrite at all from scratch. Terrible waste of time, really.
2015-09-18T14:33:44Z Shinmera: I put "documented both-ways RSS lib" on my todo, but it won't happen for... probably many months.
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2015-09-18T14:35:31Z Cymew: A co-worker of mine asked me how a webapp parsing some RSS and presenting it looked like in lisp.
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2015-09-18T14:35:54Z Cymew: I'm considering telling him, "no idea" instead of figuring it out... ;)
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2015-09-18T14:36:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: This does that, although it's still quite messy: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-openid-connect/blob/master/demo.lisp
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2015-09-18T14:39:10Z Cymew: Good to have a point of reference.
2015-09-18T14:39:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Line 268 is the "entry point" right now
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2015-09-18T14:50:09Z Shinmera: Cymew: enjoy. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/BZ?password=#
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2015-09-18T14:52:06Z Shinmera: Needs lQuery from GIT though, Quicklisp still hasn't updated.
2015-09-18T14:52:54Z Cymew: Impressive. Thanks!
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2015-09-18T14:53:38Z Cymew: You are better at this than I am.
2015-09-18T14:54:39Z Shinmera: I've just done it before.
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2015-09-18T15:05:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the idiomatic way to extend a generic method defined in another package?
2015-09-18T15:05:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defmethod foo:bar . . .
2015-09-18T15:05:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: or (in-package :foo) (defmethod bar . . . ?
2015-09-18T15:05:53Z oGMo: definitely the former
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2015-09-18T15:06:11Z oGMo: if you haven't imported it and can't just (defmethod foo ...)
2015-09-18T15:06:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like importing packages
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2015-09-18T15:08:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mostly because I like having a clear distinction between builtin / defined functions and macros and functions/macros that come from elsewhere
2015-09-18T15:09:28Z oGMo: regardless, stepping in someone else's package is generally a terrible idea
2015-09-18T15:09:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok
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2015-09-18T15:10:46Z H4ns: oGMo: what do you mean?  are you trying to say that defining methods for generic functions defined in other packages is, what, a terrible idea?
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2015-09-18T15:11:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think he means you shouldn't (in-package :someone-elses-package)
2015-09-18T15:12:04Z H4ns: I don't see why it would be a terrible idea.  If there is the need to do it, why would it be terrible?
2015-09-18T15:12:05Z oGMo: H4ns: i said _stepping in someone else's package_, i.e., being IN-PACKAGE of someone else's package
2015-09-18T15:12:25Z H4ns: oGMo: there is no such thing as "stepping in a package", that is why i asked
2015-09-18T15:12:31Z oGMo: mostly because you drop symbols that you can't guarantee don't conflict or won't conflict with someone else's work
2015-09-18T15:12:41Z oGMo: H4ns: there is, what i just defined it as :p
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2015-09-18T15:13:06Z H4ns: oGMo: if you want "guarantees" then common lisp clearly is not for you.
2015-09-18T15:14:06Z oGMo: really, i think the standard is a pretty good guarantee myself
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2015-09-18T15:57:34Z zacts: pjb: hm.. I'm too much of a newbie currently, but perhaps by the beginning - mid next year I could have some of the skills for it
2015-09-18T15:57:47Z zacts: (I hang out in #clnoobs, I'm reading PCL, and I don't yet know C)
2015-09-18T15:57:56Z zacts: but I learn quickly, and enjoy this stuff
2015-09-18T15:58:00Z zacts: I know both emacs and vim
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2015-09-18T15:58:09Z zacts: and have used them for years
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2015-09-18T15:58:28Z zacts: but as a mid - long-term goal that sounds like a cool idea for me, if no-one still picks it up by then
2015-09-18T15:58:35Z reb``: j
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2015-09-18T16:34:46Z jlarocco_work: does anybody know if Edi Weitz's new book will be available for Kindle?
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2015-09-18T16:35:33Z jackdaniel: is it a file format?
2015-09-18T16:36:14Z jlarocco_work: Kindle?
2015-09-18T16:36:17Z jlarocco_work: maybe
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2015-09-18T16:37:15Z jlarocco_work: http://www.amazon.com/Common-Lisp-Recipes-Problem-Solution-Approach/dp/1484211774/ only shows paperback
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2015-09-18T16:38:08Z jlarocco_work: i don't know if it's not showing a Kindle version because it's only available for pre-order, or if it's really only going to be available as a paperback
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2015-09-18T16:39:59Z jlarocco_work: I think I'll buy it either way, but I don't want to pre-order the paperback only to find out I could have waited and got the Kindle version later
2015-09-18T16:40:20Z dwchandler: computer book not available as ebook? the only thing more ironic would be a book about publishing ebooks available only in hardback
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2015-09-18T16:42:59Z jlarocco_work: It is ironic, but it happens a lot
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2015-09-18T16:43:50Z jlarocco_work: Let Over Lambda is only available as a paperback on Amazon
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2015-09-18T17:27:07Z flip214: jlarocco_work: really? what's http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/toc ?
2015-09-18T17:27:33Z flip214: I'd have thought this is the complete text .... not that I compared each page with the book, though
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2015-09-18T17:34:24Z nyef: It looks like it's only through chapter 6?
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2015-09-18T17:34:52Z jlarocco_work: http://www.amazon.com/Let-Over-Lambda-Doug-Hoyte/dp/1435712757/
2015-09-18T17:35:24Z jlarocco_work: I haven't bought it because it's not available on Kindle, but available on the web free
2015-09-18T17:35:43Z jlarocco_work: if it were on Kindle I'd pay for it
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2015-09-18T17:38:09Z jlarocco_work: I've moved 4 or 5 times in the last few years, and last time I had 14 or 15 boxes of books
2015-09-18T17:38:35Z jlarocco_work: at this point I'm actually selling off some of the older ones and buying them on Kindle
2015-09-18T17:38:54Z jlarocco_work: or just getting rid of them
2015-09-18T17:39:12Z pjb: Buy a scanner and digitize them!
2015-09-18T17:39:54Z rme: It's probaby cheaper to re-buy them.  Not to mention easier.
2015-09-18T17:40:42Z jlarocco_work: interesting idea, but rme is certainly right
2015-09-18T17:40:57Z pjb: Not all books are reedited.
2015-09-18T17:41:56Z jlarocco_work: yeah, I have a bunch that I'm going to keep physical copies of because I don't expect they'll ever show up in electronic form
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2015-09-18T17:42:39Z jlarocco_work: but unless I *really* need a particular book, I try really hard to only buy electronic copies
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2015-09-18T18:42:50Z jasom: I don't buy books with DRM unless there's no other way to get it
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2015-09-18T18:49:33Z jasom: Has there  been any thought given to allowing two entry points for a function in sbcl?  One where the argument types have already been checked and one where they haven't?  That could give a large fraction of the benefits of inlining without having to actually inline.
2015-09-18T18:50:34Z Shinmera: How is that comparable to inlining?
2015-09-18T18:50:59Z Shinmera: What you're describing is just one entry point with safety off, which is not at all the same thing as what happens when you inline.
2015-09-18T18:51:23Z jasom: Shinmera: it's not at all the same thing, but a big advantage of inlining on low-level machine word code is that it allows removing of type checking
2015-09-18T18:51:34Z jasom: (on safety 1)
2015-09-18T18:51:58Z Shinmera: I'd say the main benefit is that it can use the surrounding environment for type inference so that it doesn't have to check.
2015-09-18T18:52:05Z Shinmera: Not that it just gets rid of checks.
2015-09-18T18:52:12Z jasom: Shinmera: consider this
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2015-09-18T18:52:38Z pjb: jasom: isn't it what is already implemented?
2015-09-18T18:52:54Z jasom: pjb: it wasn't last time I checked
2015-09-18T18:53:15Z jasom: pjb: or rather I should say I was unable to get it to do it no matter how I declared types
2015-09-18T18:54:06Z jasom: Shinmera: consider (defun foo (a b) (declare (type (unsigned-byte 64) a b)) (logand (+ a (bar b)) #xffffffff))
2015-09-18T18:54:07Z pjb: jasom: for example: (disassemble (defun f (a &optional o &key k) (list a o k))) -->  ; no-arg-parsing entry point ; :OPTIONAL entry point
2015-09-18T18:55:12Z jasom: Shinmera: if bar is declared as (function ((unsigned-byte 64)) (values (unsigned-byte 64)) then it could skip the type checking at the head of bar
2015-09-18T18:55:20Z jasom: pjb: that doesn't elide type checks
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2015-09-18T18:55:43Z jasom: Shinmera: and the boxing/unboxing
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2015-09-18T18:55:46Z pjb: jasom: safety 0 does.
2015-09-18T18:55:59Z jasom: pjb: so does inlining on safety 1
2015-09-18T18:56:41Z jasom: Operating under the assumption that safety 1 is better than safety 0 by all measurements except performance of generated code, work to make performace at safety 1 better seems useful
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2015-09-18T18:57:09Z Shinmera: jasom: Just locally inline it, I guess.
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2015-09-18T18:58:22Z Shinmera: jasom: I can see your point, though I doubt there's much benefit in adding this feature, since the number of known arguments to a function is not always equal to the number of arguments to the function.
2015-09-18T18:58:49Z ggole: jasom: seems reasonable - in fact I think I suggested something similar to drmeister a while back
2015-09-18T18:59:31Z Shinmera: jasom: So it seems to me that in most cases you'd just create an entry point that is never used.
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2015-09-18T19:00:07Z ggole: Similar tricks are used in other language implementations to avoid boxing costs for known calls
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2015-09-18T19:00:35Z Shinmera: I suppose things could be fixed up if the compiler was smart enough to add the entry point as necessary rather than in advance.
2015-09-18T19:01:49Z Shinmera: But I can't claim to have any knowledge about compilers, let alone SBCL, so I have no idea how feasible it would be to implement.
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2015-09-18T19:04:30Z phoe_krk: I just reinvented the wheel
2015-09-18T19:04:51Z phoe_krk: when I thought there is no simpler way of printing a circle on the screen than iterating over an array
2015-09-18T19:05:39Z phoe_krk: there is: tail recursion
2015-09-18T19:05:59Z phoe_krk: http://codepad.org/xMrs7Nbw http://pasterack.org/pastes/20606
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2015-09-18T19:09:10Z dlowe: phoe_krk: that's great, but it's not Common Lisp. You may be looking for ##lisp
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2015-09-18T19:09:21Z phoe_krk: ##lisp?
2015-09-18T19:09:28Z phoe_krk: there's #lisp and ##lisp?
2015-09-18T19:09:39Z Shinmera: http://www.cliki.net/IRC
2015-09-18T19:09:57Z phoe_krk: oh sweet lords
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2015-09-18T19:10:17Z phoe_krk: freenode keeps on surprising me
2015-09-18T19:11:19Z dlowe: phoe_krk: like many things in Lisp, the reasons are historical :)
2015-09-18T19:11:26Z phoe_krk: dlowe: :P
2015-09-18T19:14:02Z phoe_krk: dlowe: also, I think I can simply turn this program into CL by exchanging define with defun and #t #f with t nil - am I correct?
2015-09-18T19:14:17Z phoe_krk: define with defun - I mean, with the proper parens change
2015-09-18T19:14:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: you'd also have to drop the lambda
2015-09-18T19:15:00Z resttime: dlowe: Huh I'm curious, would you happen to know the reasons?
2015-09-18T19:15:28Z resttime: I bet they made people mad
2015-09-18T19:16:41Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: define lambda -> defun, and fix parens
2015-09-18T19:17:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: Also, display -> format or something
2015-09-18T19:17:10Z phoe_krk: so (define name (lambda (y) ... -> (defun (name y) ...
2015-09-18T19:17:14Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2015-09-18T19:17:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: it would be (defun name (y) . . .
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2015-09-18T19:20:57Z dlowe: phoe_krk: most people in scheme like (define (name y) ...) anyway, but you also can't depend on having tail call elimination in CL
2015-09-18T19:21:23Z dlowe: It's supported on some configurations, but not required like it is in Scheme
2015-09-18T19:21:33Z phoe_krk: dlowe: oh holy hell
2015-09-18T19:21:46Z phoe_krk: dlowe: so I'll have to do it iteratively in case of that?
2015-09-18T19:21:49Z dlowe: With your thing there, you probably won't blow the stack on a modern machine
2015-09-18T19:21:59Z dlowe: I mean, we've got lots of RAM these days
2015-09-18T19:22:25Z aeth: (list (list #'get #'getf) (list #'psetf #'psetq #'set #'setf #'setq) (list #'= #'eq #'eql #'equal #'equalp) (list #'defparameter #'defvar)) ; etc.
2015-09-18T19:22:27Z dlowe: on the other hand, CL has much nicer iterative constructs
2015-09-18T19:22:31Z aeth: lots of confusing parts around common lisp
2015-09-18T19:22:35Z dlowe: so it's not all terrible
2015-09-18T19:23:10Z rme: I myself find that writing loops as tail-recursive functions calls is less clear than using an explict iteration construct, but there's certainly room in the world for others to disagree.
2015-09-18T19:23:17Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell phoe_krk about cl tco
2015-09-18T19:23:17Z Colleen: phoe_krk: The hyperspec does not require TCO. However, some implementations support it under certain circumstances. See http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html for an extensive survey.
2015-09-18T19:23:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: Here's a direct translation to common lisp http://paste.lisp.org/display/155398
2015-09-18T19:23:46Z dlowe: resttime: basically, if you look at the family tree, common lisp really is the direct successor to the original. And I think mostly the CL folks got here first and staked their claim.
2015-09-18T19:23:52Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, I was about to write that myself :P
2015-09-18T19:24:17Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: spurious IF in outline
2015-09-18T19:25:26Z phoe_krk: spurious?
2015-09-18T19:25:34Z aeth: phoe_krk: If you want to use tail calls non-portably, just use an implementation like sbcl that supports them. It helps to run disassemble on simple examples to see what's going on imo.
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2015-09-18T19:25:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk: you don't need it because and already returns t and nil
2015-09-18T19:25:52Z phoe_krk: oh, wait
2015-09-18T19:25:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: updated the paste
2015-09-18T19:26:03Z phoe_krk: just evaluating (and a b) will return t or nil
2015-09-18T19:26:11Z aeth: e.g. (defun foo () (foo)) ; should be some simple jump
2015-09-18T19:26:11Z phoe_krk: yes, thanks
2015-09-18T19:26:53Z dlowe: annotated: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155398#2
2015-09-18T19:27:39Z phoe_krk: what's terpri?
2015-09-18T19:27:49Z dlowe: outputs a line break :D
2015-09-18T19:28:07Z phoe_krk: oh, the CL way of linebreaking?
2015-09-18T19:28:23Z dlowe: we've done terrible things in the name of backwards compatibility
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2015-09-18T19:28:36Z dlowe: (format t "~%") works too
2015-09-18T19:28:46Z phoe_krk: >backwards compatibility
2015-09-18T19:28:52Z phoe_krk: >no tail recursion optimization
2015-09-18T19:28:53Z aeth: I prefer format's ~%
2015-09-18T19:28:54Z phoe_krk: doesn't compute
2015-09-18T19:29:23Z phoe_krk: uh, anyways
2015-09-18T19:29:32Z aeth: phoe_krk: It's there, it's just not portable. If that bothers you, you can try to fund the next ANSI spec for CL.
2015-09-18T19:29:41Z dlowe: backwards compatibility for maclisp and interlisp
2015-09-18T19:29:51Z aeth: There are a few things that could use updating. Unicode, paths, tail calls, etc.
2015-09-18T19:29:56Z phoe_krk: is there a way of requiring that a CL implementation has TLO, just in case?
2015-09-18T19:30:10Z aeth: dlowe: and Lisp Machine Lisp?
2015-09-18T19:30:10Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: I linked you a thing, why didn't you read it?
2015-09-18T19:30:24Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: I did, I'll return to it
2015-09-18T19:30:28Z resttime: I recall trying to benchmark some mini solutions on SBCL - loop, vanilla recursion, then TCO  http://paste.lisp.org/display/152768
2015-09-18T19:30:31Z dlowe: aeth: Not sure how much that was added into the mix
2015-09-18T19:30:50Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: oh wait, this other thing
2015-09-18T19:30:56Z resttime: TCO ended up being the fastest ginger ale if one did not have to reverse the list
2015-09-18T19:31:17Z aeth: dlowe: well I was reading through the chinual and it seems a lot like Common Lisp minus CLOS with some historical differences
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2015-09-18T19:32:18Z resttime: Err, ginger ale basically applies a function to every even argument of the list
2015-09-18T19:32:27Z aeth: Wikipedia says it was influenced by "Lisp, Lisp Machine Lisp, Maclisp, Scheme, Interlisp". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp
2015-09-18T19:32:35Z resttime: s/argument/member/
2015-09-18T19:33:13Z rme: When I was at Clozure, we had at least one client who was very insistent that CCL have a way *not* to apply TCO (which ccl normally does).
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2015-09-18T19:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why would one want to prevent TCO?
2015-09-18T19:34:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: (except for backwards compatibility)
2015-09-18T19:34:26Z aeth: dlowe: Anyone here who knows enough Common Lisp *probably* knows enough to program on early Lisp Machines but there would be a few subtle differences that would probably cause problems (which is probably why Common Lisp was needed in the first place)
2015-09-18T19:34:40Z rme: I think they were concered about seeing all calls in a backtrace.
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2015-09-18T19:35:33Z aeth: It's very interesting to compare this to the HyperSpec. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/
2015-09-18T19:35:50Z rme: So, some implementations might only do TCO when, say, debug < 2.
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2015-09-18T19:36:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: That makes sense to me
2015-09-18T19:37:27Z phoe_krk: c++ solves this by removing or keeping debug symbols in its binaries
2015-09-18T19:37:51Z phoe_krk: wouldn't lisp benefit from a similar thing? TCO in release, keeping the backtrace complete in debug
2015-09-18T19:38:10Z phoe_krk: and that would be doable with a simple toggle before compiling everything
2015-09-18T19:38:18Z phoe_krk: just like in c++
2015-09-18T19:38:21Z Shinmera: It sounds cool until you need to debug on a client machine.
2015-09-18T19:38:34Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: just like in c++ :P
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2015-09-18T19:38:47Z aeth: C++ solves problems?
2015-09-18T19:38:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-18T19:39:03Z aeth: I thought C++ was a job-creating stimulus program
2015-09-18T19:39:23Z phoe_krk: aeth: no, it doesn't :P I'm not talking about c++ per se, just the debug/release kind of building programs
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2015-09-18T19:40:22Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: but then again, there goes the choice why shouldn't everything be built in debug and why we have the release build option in the first place
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2015-09-18T19:40:57Z aeth: phoe_krk: Afaik, it's simply because people choose speed over debuggability.
2015-09-18T19:41:36Z phoe_krk: aeth: precisely why TCO should be a togglable option before compilation IMO
2015-09-18T19:41:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Doesn't (declaim ... give something like that?
2015-09-18T19:42:01Z Shinmera: You can optimise for non-debuggability, yes
2015-09-18T19:42:11Z Shinmera: clhs debug
2015-09-18T19:42:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
2015-09-18T19:42:13Z rme: phoe_krk: You can do that with CL.  (declaim (optimize (debug 1)) for TCO, perhaps, and (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) otherwise.
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2015-09-18T19:42:30Z aeth: phoe_krk: A lot of implementations do this, just not portably afaik. If you wanted it to be portable, you'd have to make a new Common Lisp spec because then everyone who wasn't compliant wouldn't be Common Lisp '15 or whatever.
2015-09-18T19:42:55Z aeth: The portability issues, however, are nothing compared to Scheme. :-p
2015-09-18T19:43:00Z phoe_krk: aeth: sounds like someone needs to sit down and unify everything again
2015-09-18T19:43:00Z rme: The optimize settings can interact in various ways, depending on the specifics of the implementation.
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2015-09-18T19:44:30Z aeth: phoe_krk: ime reactions to standardization tend to vary from "it's not necessary, just use portability libraries" to "are you going to pay for it? standards are expensive"
2015-09-18T19:45:33Z Shinmera: Sometimes both at once!
2015-09-18T19:45:39Z aeth: Unfortunately what will probably just happen is a bunch of unportable code that only runs on SBCL and/or CCL.
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2015-09-18T19:51:17Z dlowe: what people don't get is that there is *no way* to *make* lisp vendors cooperate on extensions. You have to convince them it's worth their time and/or money
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2015-09-18T19:54:20Z aeth: dlowe: Well, there is one way, but it's so improbable it's practically impossible. Write the killer app for Lisp. i.e. Something so popular it's a bug not to support it.
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2015-09-18T19:54:31Z phoe_krk: >a killer app for Lisp
2015-09-18T19:54:37Z aeth: e.g. all Ruby implementations probably support Rails
2015-09-18T19:55:11Z dlowe: aeth: such a project wouldn't start without using portability libraries
2015-09-18T19:55:32Z dlowe: and then it would be using portability libraries
2015-09-18T19:55:57Z phoe_krk: dlowe: I think it's possible to write a CL application that will adhere to all standards and, in effect, will not run on any Lisp implementation
2015-09-18T19:56:08Z phoe_krk: but that would sort of defeat the purpose
2015-09-18T19:56:19Z dlowe: Dunno. Lisp implementations are usually pretty good about following the spec.
2015-09-18T19:56:22Z phoe_krk: first you write an application and then you write a language implementation capable of running it.
2015-09-18T19:56:24Z dlowe: Not following it is a bug
2015-09-18T19:56:29Z phoe_krk: dlowe: then whence the fragmentation?
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2015-09-18T19:56:38Z dlowe: Extensions that aren't part of the spec
2015-09-18T19:56:55Z dlowe: Network sockets, threads, unicode. You know. Post 1994 stuff
2015-09-18T19:57:03Z aeth: dlowe: Yeah, but there's probably a performance cost to portability such that it would make sense to more directly support some features in a killer app.
2015-09-18T19:57:07Z phoe_krk: dlowe: well, holy fsck
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2015-09-18T19:57:26Z phoe_krk: dlowe: we're using a language that has a specification from 20 years ago
2015-09-18T19:57:36Z phoe_krk: dlowe: that's screaming obsolete
2015-09-18T19:57:53Z aeth: phoe_krk: Exclude CLOS and most of the language is even older
2015-09-18T19:58:12Z phoe_krk: aeth: I don't mind the old bits
2015-09-18T19:58:22Z dlowe: You can write a lot of useful programs in portable common lisp.
2015-09-18T19:58:26Z phoe_krk: aeth: old stuff is good because it was tested
2015-09-18T19:58:40Z dlowe: and you can always just pick an implementation and run with it if you have a killer app you want to write
2015-09-18T19:58:50Z phoe_krk: dlowe: that
2015-09-18T19:58:59Z aeth: phoe_krk: There are some advantages to the language being defined for so long. It can be very, very fast because some implementations are very old (or forks from very old projects).
2015-09-18T19:59:07Z dlowe: I haven't had any problems writing 3d graphics with shaders or networking programs
2015-09-18T19:59:12Z dlowe: But they aren't portable, either
2015-09-18T19:59:41Z phoe_krk: as long as there isn't a spec including all of these things, they won't be portable
2015-09-18T20:00:13Z dlowe: So we have an ugly but working ecosystem of unportable apps running on portable libraries running on unportable runtimes
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2015-09-18T20:00:21Z phoe_krk: and running on a 1994 spec is simply asking for importability when all of modern apps use features like 3D graphics, networking or multicore environment
2015-09-18T20:00:26Z aeth: phoe_krk: Run trivial-benchmark on (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) code on SBCL (although make sure it really, really works before turning that on because you're effectively making the language like a garbage-collected C at this point, with all the danger that implies)
2015-09-18T20:00:46Z aeth: Sure SBCL is old compared to many newer dynamic languages, including Schemes, but oh my god it's so incredibly fast.
2015-09-18T20:00:51Z phoe_krk: one second, I'm loading lispstick up
2015-09-18T20:00:56Z dlowe: Scheme is a good deal older than CL
2015-09-18T20:01:08Z resttime: Has there ever been work on a proposed new spec?
2015-09-18T20:01:11Z dlowe: and it doesn't support any of that stuff either
2015-09-18T20:01:12Z aeth: dlowe: I believe we're going by date of last published spec. r7rs is brand new
2015-09-18T20:01:28Z dlowe: resttime: who would implement it?
2015-09-18T20:01:46Z aeth: resttime: You'd need the force of a Google or something behind it.
2015-09-18T20:02:01Z aeth: resttime: Lots of money, lots of experts, lots of usage.
2015-09-18T20:02:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wouldn't the spirit of common lisp imply something like specify SBCL's extensions?
2015-09-18T20:02:05Z Xof: the force of a Google hasn't managed to get a spec for Python
2015-09-18T20:02:17Z Xof: which they use a lot more than they do Lisp
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2015-09-18T20:02:45Z aeth: Xof: probably because Google hasn't tried?
2015-09-18T20:02:47Z Xof: ...
2015-09-18T20:03:30Z aeth: has Google tried?
2015-09-18T20:03:40Z Xof: I can't imagine that it has
2015-09-18T20:03:47Z dlowe: Google is using CL now in Flight Search.
2015-09-18T20:03:49Z Xof: except doesn't it employ van Rossum to work on Python?
2015-09-18T20:03:58Z dlowe: Guido left last year
2015-09-18T20:04:13Z aeth: interesting
2015-09-18T20:04:14Z Xof: heh, shows how much attention I pay.  I did know about Flight Search, though, believe me
2015-09-18T20:04:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: dlowe: did they buy someone?
2015-09-18T20:04:29Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, they bought ITA.
2015-09-18T20:04:55Z dlowe: They canceled the CL flight reservation system, but the airfare search engine stayed.
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2015-09-18T20:06:25Z jasom: phoe_krk: regarding portability it depends on how you define portable
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2015-09-18T20:07:21Z jasom: phoe_krk: there are libraries that abstract away the differences on certain things for all curently known implementations of common lisp; this makes it portable today, but someone could create a new implementation and neglect to update the library making it not portable tomorrow.
2015-09-18T20:08:03Z phoe_krk: jasom: the easy thing would be to implement parts of the library into the implementations, but nobody is going to do that, I think
2015-09-18T20:08:04Z jasom: But honestly, if it works on 6 different implementations, that's more portable than most languages (which don't even have 6 different implementations)
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2015-09-18T20:08:15Z phoe_krk: jasom: yes, correct
2015-09-18T20:08:38Z dlowe: as a nice bonus, if it's portable across implementations, it's generally portable across machine architectures, operating systems, etc.
2015-09-18T20:08:47Z jasom: phoe_krk: actually it does happen occasionally when de-facto standards come around
2015-09-18T20:09:11Z jasom: phoe_krk: e.g. ASDF
2015-09-18T20:09:21Z phoe_krk: jasom: the only thing that might force implementators to adhere fully to non-spec standards would be de facto standards IMO
2015-09-18T20:09:33Z resttime: Maybe there's hope after all :D
2015-09-18T20:09:54Z phoe_krk: jasom: so it's not about leaning against the spec itself, it's the usability factor or the aforementioned killer aps
2015-09-18T20:09:56Z phoe_krk: apps
2015-09-18T20:10:23Z jasom: right, a spec can only have weight when the implementors care about interoperability for some reason
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2015-09-18T20:10:46Z jasom: and if the implementors care enough about interoperability, the spec is more of a formality
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2015-09-18T20:10:55Z aeth: Right, like if there were multiple competing machines that ran Lisp operating systems.
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2015-09-18T20:11:07Z aeth: Then they might want a common Lisp so that applications were portable between these machines that run Lisp.
2015-09-18T20:11:33Z resttime: Wait wouldn't implementors want to resist so that they would lock in users?
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2015-09-18T20:11:52Z aeth: resttime: nope, but they lost to Wintel anyway.
2015-09-18T20:11:53Z jasom: resttime: usually they add non-portable extensions to their own implementation
2015-09-18T20:12:04Z resttime: Because if you could just use the other guys implementation...bye bye money
2015-09-18T20:12:06Z jasom: resttime: then they can lock in existing users while still subsuming other users
2015-09-18T20:12:14Z phoe_krk: resttime: if Lisp implementation M runs this new feature and gains momentum, why would Lisp implementation N want to stay behind?
2015-09-18T20:12:21Z aeth: resttime: there are still a lot of things that aren't part of the standard like e.g. the windowing system
2015-09-18T20:12:30Z aeth: or an editor
2015-09-18T20:12:40Z aeth: CL isn't enough for a LispM
2015-09-18T20:12:50Z aeth: (Out of the box, I mean)
2015-09-18T20:12:51Z jasom: I would like to point out that C has no socket standard, and it just got threading in 2011
2015-09-18T20:12:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: the darwin app
2015-09-18T20:13:06Z phoe_krk: resttime: or just what jasom said, MLisp has feature M and NLisp has feature N, so it's an either-or for them.
2015-09-18T20:13:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: open darwin approach
2015-09-18T20:13:49Z phoe_krk: the only thing I owe to opendarwin right now is the ability to run OS X on my lenovo laptop
2015-09-18T20:14:11Z phoe_krk: other than that, it seems fairly underdeveloped for a *nixlike system
2015-09-18T20:14:33Z aeth: Because why use OpenDarwin?
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2015-09-18T20:14:49Z phoe_krk: aeth: there's something else already doing the job better
2015-09-18T20:14:53Z aeth: right
2015-09-18T20:15:11Z phoe_krk: aeth: one of the reasons why Darwin or Plan9 didn't bloom
2015-09-18T20:15:13Z aeth: Either you want all the pretty OS X stuff or you want to just run a BSD directly. So there wasn't really a use case for OpenDarwin, so no contributions.
2015-09-18T20:16:07Z phoe_krk: OS X is actually a whole ecosystem built on top of Darwin
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2015-09-18T20:16:19Z phoe_krk: it's either you grab and use it all, or you don't use any of it
2015-09-18T20:16:28Z aeth: right, but few or no people use Darwin directly
2015-09-18T20:16:31Z phoe_krk: imagine the work necessary to reimplement e.g. Cocoa
2015-09-18T20:16:44Z aeth: I guess Apple was trying for an open core strategy, and it didn't work because not enough was in the core.
2015-09-18T20:16:45Z phoe_krk: just to be able to run OS X apps on OpenDarwin
2015-09-18T20:16:50Z aeth: And they probably didn't want to give too much to PCs
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2015-09-18T20:17:04Z phoe_krk: aeth: they already gave enough, I have a Hackintosh which is against their policy
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2015-09-18T20:17:20Z aeth: phoe_krk: not enough to *legally* use it.
2015-09-18T20:17:37Z phoe_krk: aeth: not in Poland, where it's legal to use it that way
2015-09-18T20:17:42Z aeth: ah
2015-09-18T20:17:43Z phoe_krk: aeth: and let's be honest, the important parts of OS X are all outside the Darwin core.
2015-09-18T20:17:51Z aeth: yes
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2015-09-18T20:19:03Z phoe_krk: so OpenDarwin is fairly pointless. its working ecosystem is closed-source, so literally it's just a lone kernel
2015-09-18T20:19:23Z aeth: right, a lone NIH kernel
2015-09-18T20:19:27Z phoe_krk: everyone else already has their kernels with their own userland ecosystem
2015-09-18T20:19:28Z phoe_krk: NIH?
2015-09-18T20:19:32Z aeth: not-invented-here
2015-09-18T20:19:38Z phoe_krk: oh, yes
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2015-09-18T20:20:07Z phoe_krk: HP-UX has its own kernel and its own userspace, QNX - same thing, *BSDs - the same thing, Linux distros - the same thing
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2015-09-18T20:20:58Z phoe_krk: Darwin first needs to have all userland capabilities ported to its kernel in order to become viable as an *operating system*
2015-09-18T20:21:09Z phoe_krk: because a kernel isn't enough if I can't play solitaire
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2015-09-18T20:22:10Z aeth: which, to bring it back around to lisp, is probably why there won't be a usable LispOS anytime soon even though there are attempts and at least one Common Lisp designed for kernels
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2015-09-18T20:22:39Z aeth: There will be a major issue with graphics drivers and wifi drivers, just like Linux 10 years ago (or Linux today if you want FOSS graphics drivers)
2015-09-18T20:22:49Z phoe_krk: aeth: there might be one as a proof of concept, there was this Lisp OS I've heard of
2015-09-18T20:22:52Z phoe_krk: and yes, drivers
2015-09-18T20:22:59Z phoe_krk: binary blobs, binary blobs everywhere
2015-09-18T20:23:12Z aeth: Most "Lisp OS" OSes aren't Common Lisp, though. And at least one isn't even Lisp all the way down.
2015-09-18T20:23:21Z phoe_krk: unless you really, *really* want to port everything from Linux
2015-09-18T20:23:35Z phoe_krk: put another wrapper around NDISwrapper for example
2015-09-18T20:23:46Z aeth: If you implemented a Linux compatability layer, you'd probably restrict the possible designs.
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2015-09-18T20:23:59Z phoe_krk: aeth: that would be one of the first things to be done
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2015-09-18T20:24:11Z aeth: I'm not sure a Unix-in-Lisp would be worth using. Unix is designed for C.
2015-09-18T20:24:14Z phoe_krk: aeth: simply because it's simple in design and would work with existing Linux drivers
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2015-09-18T20:24:30Z phoe_krk: aeth: well, that would require a whole OS philosophy redesign
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2015-09-18T20:25:03Z aeth: not really, e.g. just use the current best practices instead of the really outdated best practices, so e.g. use sandboxes instead of different users as a way to run applications
2015-09-18T20:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: dont the binary blobs make thi gs easier? you just have to write the code to push the blob to the hardware
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2015-09-18T20:26:01Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: write me the code that finds the proper blob in the proprietary firmware and pushes it to a proper spot in the hardware
2015-09-18T20:26:03Z aeth: With Unix, we have single-user systems that pretend to be multi-user systems for security.
2015-09-18T20:27:00Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: ok great, get proprietary nvidia Linux drivers working for bare-metal CLs please.
2015-09-18T20:29:19Z phoe_krk: aeth: the only way I see to bootstrap any native graphics/wifi driver development for any CL operating system is to first port any of them from Linux
2015-09-18T20:29:37Z phoe_krk: aeth: nobody will invest in that without a working proof of concept IMHO
2015-09-18T20:30:22Z phoe_krk: aeth: especially since it's Lisp, the mythical ancient language that somehow avoids being completely forgotten nowadays
2015-09-18T20:31:45Z aeth: phoe_krk: One problem after you do that is that there's nothing that's both recent and graphical in Common Lisp that doesn't use a foreign library, e.g. Qt or SDL.
2015-09-18T20:32:10Z phoe_krk: aeth: find me a group of people that are ready to develop all of this natively from scratch.
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2015-09-18T20:32:28Z aeth: phoe_krk: So I think a LispOS at the level of the kernel is kind of looking at it backwards. No one will bother because there's nothing graphical to run except maybe a faster, lower-power Woo server or something.
2015-09-18T20:32:30Z phoe_krk: aeth: with the current state of the library ecosystem, it's easier to port an existing library elsewhere than to write a new one from scratch.
2015-09-18T20:32:54Z aeth: s/nothing graphical/nothing/
2015-09-18T20:33:02Z aeth: s/or something/or something non-graphical/
2015-09-18T20:33:06Z aeth: Wow I messed up that sentence
2015-09-18T20:33:16Z aeth: ugh, I mean "or something else non-graphical"
2015-09-18T20:33:16Z aeth: damn
2015-09-18T20:33:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: so why not start with a unikerbel module and then build down? mirageos seems useful
2015-09-18T20:34:20Z aeth: I think you mean "unikerbal"
2015-09-18T20:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) ircing via ssh from mobile doesnt lend itself to accurate typing
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2015-09-18T20:37:39Z phoe_krk: aeth: and you'd first need to have a decently optimized CL-to-ASM compiler for that target platform you plan on running your OS on, that would be another hassle, if you wanted portability, too.
2015-09-18T20:37:41Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I understand, I do the same thing. Except I tend to mix up v and b that way instead of b and n
2015-09-18T20:37:59Z phoe_krk: it's already achieved for many architectures, including the major contemporary ones, but.
2015-09-18T20:38:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl already has an assembler
2015-09-18T20:38:31Z aeth: phoe_krk: I wonder if it's easier to port sbcl to a lispos than to create a new cl.
2015-09-18T20:38:41Z aeth: The problem is sbcl does have some large parts in C, even though it's mostly in CL
2015-09-18T20:38:47Z dlowe: someone made sbcl run on the bare metal already
2015-09-18T20:38:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: isnt there a cl in cl project?
2015-09-18T20:38:59Z dlowe: probably doesn't work anymore though. Check out movitz
2015-09-18T20:39:19Z aeth: You might have some problem here with the 3240 LoC GC. https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/gc-common.c
2015-09-18T20:39:24Z aeth: But if someone else already handled it, great.
2015-09-18T20:40:32Z aeth: oh great there's even more. 4795 lines. https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/gencgc.c
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2015-09-18T20:41:15Z aeth: I guess that would be the biggest issue. A lot of the .c stuff isn't needed here, e.g. the 2160 LoC win32-os.c
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2015-09-18T20:42:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: is there anything that compiles c to cl
2015-09-18T20:42:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: reliably
2015-09-18T20:43:25Z phoe_krk: ...
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2015-09-18T20:43:49Z phoe_krk: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd have fun running a source C program through a C->CL->C loop a few hundred times and look at the results
2015-09-18T20:44:04Z resttime: I think this has had more recent progress than movitz  https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-09-18T20:44:24Z resttime: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46753018/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-19%20at%2001.29.31.png
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2015-09-18T20:45:18Z aeth: There's a JavaScript on top of CL. I wonder if it's able to run Parenscript and vice versa. It would be fun to try to see how many layers deep is usable.
2015-09-18T20:45:42Z aeth: ... -> JS -> Parenscript -> JS -> CL
2015-09-18T20:45:44Z phoe_krk: resttime: ugh, the amount and kind of commands in Mezzano gives me a familiar feeling
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2015-09-18T20:46:10Z phoe_krk: resttime: Mezzano looks like an EmacsOS
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2015-09-18T20:46:51Z aeth: phoe_krk: to be fair, even GNU stuff supports a lot of that. Except C-K in readline allows a C-Y
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2015-09-18T20:47:09Z aeth: e.g. test e.g. test e.g. test (killing once then yanking 3 times)
2015-09-18T20:47:22Z aeth: Here C-K just deletes, which isn't correct.
2015-09-18T20:48:06Z aeth: Also, readline supports C-U as clearing the line, which this doesn't.
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2015-09-18T20:48:18Z aeth: Idk why they didn't want to be closer to readline.
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2015-09-18T20:49:24Z aeth: For better or for worse, people expect GNU-like functionality in their OSes.
2015-09-18T20:49:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: The best way around the userland problem is just to port emacs to the bare metal.
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2015-09-18T20:49:57Z phoe_krk_: fsck bluescreens
2015-09-18T20:49:58Z aeth: Lisp Machine Lisp might be more capable than elisp, not 100% sure.
2015-09-18T20:50:03Z phoe_krk_: what did I miss?
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2015-09-18T20:51:08Z aeth: I use emacs for coding in Lisp because I have no other more capable choice, but it really isn't that great. I wouldn't want it for an OS.
2015-09-18T20:51:36Z aeth: The buffer-as-everything model just doesn't work that well imo
2015-09-18T20:52:00Z phoe_krk_: aeth: how dare you
2015-09-18T20:52:05Z aeth: I'd much rather have a special REPL designed and optimized as an REPL, not a REPL as a buffer.
2015-09-18T20:52:08Z phoe_krk_: aeth: what about file-is-everything!?
2015-09-18T20:52:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wouldn't know, I don't actually use emacs :)
2015-09-18T20:53:03Z aeth: Iirc if you accidentally save your interactive SLIME session (and you might do this with your muscle memory because it acts just like every other buffer, including being savable), it doesn't log it.
2015-09-18T20:55:46Z aeth: If you save your *scratch* I'm not sure if there's a way to get it up again. There's no *scratch command in M-x except for M-x slime-scratch, apparently. Unless I'm tab-completing incorrectly or it's not in there under foo-scratch
2015-09-18T20:56:29Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I wonder if there is a REPL that does a following thing: I'm in a REPL and I get some errors, and then I can just go like (redefine symbol_name) and it opens me a spare buffer with symbol_name's definition, I can edit it, close, and at that point it compiles it
2015-09-18T20:57:00Z aeth: good idea
2015-09-18T20:57:11Z phoe_krk_: like, it opens a buffer, not a REPL as-is
2015-09-18T20:57:17Z Shinmera: You can just hit v at the stack frame to jump to the function/method definition, edit it, and hit C-c C-c.
2015-09-18T20:57:28Z phoe_krk_: Shinmera: ...that's not an Emacs
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2015-09-18T20:57:30Z phoe_krk_: I mean
2015-09-18T20:57:36Z phoe_krk_: Shinmera: ...a REPL that isn't Emacs
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2015-09-18T20:57:57Z Shinmera: Why are you talking about buffers if it's not emacs?
2015-09-18T20:58:03Z aeth: Usually in Slime I just use C-j instead of RET when I want to redefine something (and hope that there's no imbalanced parens 2000 lines up so paredit will work)
2015-09-18T20:58:06Z phoe_krk_: a mental shortcut
2015-09-18T20:58:15Z phoe_krk_: I meant, a file that isn't evaluated as it's typed
2015-09-18T20:59:08Z phoe_krk_: uh, wait
2015-09-18T20:59:14Z aeth: really, I think a REPL should have two buffers, a read-only history buffer and an input-only buffer. Sort of like an IM program, I guess. Instead of SLIME's all-in-one buffer that can do things like break paredit
2015-09-18T20:59:22Z phoe_krk_: mhm!
2015-09-18T20:59:57Z aeth: (ok, not technically input-only because you should read the chars you type, but I think people know what I mean)
2015-09-18T21:00:19Z phoe_krk_: hm
2015-09-18T21:00:27Z phoe_krk_: I can write a simple text-editor in CL
2015-09-18T21:00:41Z phoe_krk_: and I can bind a function named redefine to it
2015-09-18T21:00:43Z aeth: Then you could even have the up arrow do what the up arrow is expected to do (instead of alt+p, etc.) and give previous entries. And just use the C-N C-P to go up or down in multi-line inputs
2015-09-18T21:01:05Z phoe_krk_: so it actually grabs the definition, opens a file with that definition inside the text editor, compiles the function when it's done and returns to REPL
2015-09-18T21:01:25Z phoe_krk_: is it doable in 100% CL inside a REPL?
2015-09-18T21:01:43Z aeth: phoe_krk_: the problem with a simple text editor in CL is that it wouldn't be simple at all
2015-09-18T21:01:45Z phoe_krk_: like, when you go (redefine x), it opens up a full-screen text editor with (defun (x) ...)
2015-09-18T21:01:54Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I meant, as simple as possible ;)
2015-09-18T21:02:11Z phoe_krk_: you could always go exec vi or nano or something
2015-09-18T21:02:11Z aeth: phoe_krk_: it would be fairly easy if there was a working CLIM but afaik there isn't
2015-09-18T21:02:15Z phoe_krk_: CLIM?
2015-09-18T21:02:22Z phoe_krk_: common lisp instant messenger?
2015-09-18T21:02:23Z phoe_krk_: o:
2015-09-18T21:02:27Z aeth: Interface Manager
2015-09-18T21:02:33Z aeth: i.e. something other than Qt
2015-09-18T21:02:56Z phoe_krk_: textmode, I mean
2015-09-18T21:03:03Z phoe_krk_: in the same window that runs the REPL
2015-09-18T21:03:03Z aeth: You're not really writing something "in Lisp" when you're doing foreign calls to C or C++. It can really restrict your style depending on the library and wrapper
2015-09-18T21:03:05Z phoe_krk_: like nano or vi
2015-09-18T21:03:24Z Shinmera: Accept the demons into your heart. Use Qt today.
2015-09-18T21:03:26Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2015-09-18T21:03:43Z aeth: I'd consider using Qt if KDE wasn't the paradigm of instability and bugginess.
2015-09-18T21:03:47Z phoe_krk_: Shinmera: Accept THE demons into your heart. Write your code in XCode.
2015-09-18T21:03:58Z aeth: I use KDE because every day GNOME decides to remove another feature I use. And for no other reason.
2015-09-18T21:04:13Z Shinmera: Qt and KDE aren't one.
2015-09-18T21:04:25Z Shinmera: They're very much separate.
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2015-09-18T21:05:41Z aeth: Yes, but I suspect a good portion of the bugginess and instability I encounter is really Qt, not KDE
2015-09-18T21:05:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Doesn't lispworks have a clim implementation?
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2015-09-18T21:06:11Z Shinmera: aeth: Have fun living with your suspicions then.
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2015-09-18T21:06:46Z phoe_krk_: question: does any Lisp implementation have capabilities of interacting with a terminal in a way of, like, getting current height/width of it?
2015-09-18T21:07:01Z Shinmera: phoe_krk_: there's bindings to ncurses.
2015-09-18T21:07:12Z yates: is there a way to run cl in emacs/elisp?
2015-09-18T21:07:25Z phoe_krk_: yates: lispstick?
2015-09-18T21:07:27Z aeth: Shinmera: It's a suspicion formed from years of experience using (and reading the source of) open source programs written in C++. The language itself seems to be a magnet for bad FOSS code.
2015-09-18T21:07:53Z Shinmera: aeth: Good for you.
2015-09-18T21:08:09Z aeth: Maybe Qt is different (in part because it started out as proprietary). But I do understand why most C++ people want to be paid to do it.
2015-09-18T21:08:16Z Shinmera: yates: There's cl.el which will give you some very rudimentary features of CL, but it will by no means make elisp behave like CL.
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2015-09-18T21:09:28Z phoe_krk_: aeth: that would be a first step, a CL texteditor built against ncurses
2015-09-18T21:09:41Z phoe_krk_: aeth: until we have a CL equivalent of ncurses :P
2015-09-18T21:09:52Z yates: my goal is to access a database from elisp. presuming cl has a db package, could i use it in elisp via cl.el?
2015-09-18T21:10:17Z Shinmera: yates: No.
2015-09-18T21:10:53Z yates: is there a way to get database access in emacs/elisp?
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2015-09-18T21:11:04Z Shinmera: Ask #emacs, they'd probably know better.
2015-09-18T21:11:06Z aeth: phoe_krk_: I personally think that we need a CL editor that's ready for the 90s, rather than one that's built on ncurses.
2015-09-18T21:11:44Z aeth: Just think about the thousands of colors the editor could use!
2015-09-18T21:11:48Z yates: Shinmera: i already have. no good answers there.
2015-09-18T21:13:09Z Shinmera: yates: Time to write your own then, I guess. Elisp at least has sockets.
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2015-09-18T21:13:24Z yates: yes, i was just looking into that
2015-09-18T21:14:08Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I want something that can run in text-mode on top of the REPL.
2015-09-18T21:14:29Z phoe_krk_: aeth: that would make a good combo. a REPL for evaluating your code, and a textedit on top of that to define your functions.
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2015-09-18T21:15:04Z Xof: yates: pg.el
2015-09-18T21:15:08Z Xof: (for example)
2015-09-18T21:15:38Z phoe_krk_: like, you can go (defun x) and it actually takes you to a text editor with "(defun (x " already done for you. You leave texteditor, it compiles the function for you and you're back in REPL with a new prompt two lines below.
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2015-09-18T21:16:04Z phoe_krk_: all without leaving text mode, with REPL going invisible when you're textediting the function.
2015-09-18T21:17:39Z phoe_krk_: for that, we need to have some bindings to the terminal REPL is running in. that's achievable through ncurses for now, until we build a CL version of that.
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2015-09-18T21:18:16Z aeth: I think it would be easier to just write a thin graphical wrapper over an REPL, like a lite version of an emacs+SLIME combo.
2015-09-18T21:18:50Z aeth: REPLs really aren't designed to be used in the terminal except afaik clisp's.
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2015-09-18T21:19:02Z phoe_krk_: aeth: they should be, imagine a lisp machine
2015-09-18T21:19:04Z aeth: (directly in the terminal, I mean)
2015-09-18T21:19:17Z phoe_krk_: aeth: a text editor running on top of a repl in a console would be a wonder
2015-09-18T21:19:27Z aeth: phoe_krk_: but why should the REPL be run on top of some crappy DSL called bash instead of using the REPL as a shell?
2015-09-18T21:19:40Z aeth: And if you're using the REPL as a shell, why use a terminal emulator for some old Unix terminal?
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2015-09-18T21:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose swank/slime/whatever could take the place of ssh
2015-09-18T21:20:10Z aeth: right
2015-09-18T21:20:24Z phoe_krk_: aeth: that's the easiest way of achieving bindings to the console, like, getting its size
2015-09-18T21:20:59Z phoe_krk_: aeth: if you're able to create a REPL-based shell that's capable of running some sort of text editor on its own functions, that's what I'm thinking of
2015-09-18T21:21:24Z aeth: What you need is a fancy REPL that basically assumes that something not wrapped in a parenthesis is a function call instead of a series of atoms, e.g.: (+ 1 1) equally as valid as + 1 1
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2015-09-18T21:21:37Z phoe_krk_: aeth: why?
2015-09-18T21:21:44Z aeth: Then you have a shell language infinitely better than bash, although you have to quote strings instead of just having horrible, horrible things happening around strings sometimes
2015-09-18T21:21:47Z phoe_krk_: aeth: why should you skip the parens?
2015-09-18T21:21:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: there's readable
2015-09-18T21:22:05Z aeth: phoe_krk_: because then you can do this: ls :l "some-directory"
2015-09-18T21:22:28Z aeth: phoe_krk_: and you basically have a Unix shell, but with everything just being small functions written on top of CL or common CL libraries
2015-09-18T21:22:46Z aeth: And then you don't need to do anything in a terminal. Just do everything in the REPL.
2015-09-18T21:22:47Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I find it silly to do it this way, I'd greatly have it (ls :l "dir") way
2015-09-18T21:23:01Z aeth: Right, most people here would probably want to do that.
2015-09-18T21:23:02Z phoe_krk_: aeth: it's simply illogical to make an exception here
2015-09-18T21:23:15Z phoe_krk_: aeth: if everything is lists, there's no point in breaking this
2015-09-18T21:23:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'd have to have paredit in the repl then
2015-09-18T21:23:30Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I do paredit in the REPL
2015-09-18T21:23:37Z phoe_krk_: aeth: and you'd have to introduce something to make it possible to make multiline commands
2015-09-18T21:23:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: outside of emacs?
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2015-09-18T21:23:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to know how to do that . . .
2015-09-18T21:24:09Z phoe_krk_: aeth: instead of a simple (cd "\") (rm -rf .) you'd have to do something like the dreaded ;
2015-09-18T21:24:20Z phoe_krk_: and I don't want to ;s in mah lisp
2015-09-18T21:24:25Z phoe_krk_: no ;s*
2015-09-18T21:24:36Z aeth: phoe_krk_: no, you can just make the ()s implicit for *simple* one-liners
2015-09-18T21:24:52Z phoe_krk_: aeth: sort of, yes, but *do* make it togglable
2015-09-18T21:24:53Z aeth: If you want to do (cd "foo") (mkdir "bar") that would also be legal
2015-09-18T21:25:05Z phoe_krk_: just so the unix people can deal with this clsh
2015-09-18T21:25:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or just re-eval with ()s surrounding, if the first eval doesn't work
2015-09-18T21:25:12Z aeth: And the implicitness would be just for approachability, it would *not* be the default for the REPL as REPL
2015-09-18T21:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: or something like that
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2015-09-18T21:25:15Z aeth: It would be a shell mode
2015-09-18T21:25:29Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: a first eval would NOT work
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2015-09-18T21:25:39Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: you would eval "cd" with no arguments, which WOULD work
2015-09-18T21:26:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: only if "cd" was a bound symbol
2015-09-18T21:26:09Z phoe_krk_: or "ls" with no arguments, actually
2015-09-18T21:26:13Z phoe_krk_: that would be a bound symbol in a shell
2015-09-18T21:26:14Z aeth: phoe_krk_: right, the default REPL would be just like SLIME, but then there would be a shell mode which automatically imports all the simple wrappers like cd and ls, and makes the ()s implicit for one-liners
2015-09-18T21:26:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: not in common lisp
2015-09-18T21:26:35Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: but on any sane *nix shell
2015-09-18T21:26:37Z aeth: i.e. if there's a ( in the first position, it's treated like a regular REPL, otherwise it's treated like a shell
2015-09-18T21:26:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: cl has different namespaces for symbols and functions
2015-09-18T21:26:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/symbols/values/
2015-09-18T21:27:01Z aeth: (ls :l "some-dir") vs. ls :l "some-dir" can be easily disambiguated by looking for a ( in the first non-whitespace position
2015-09-18T21:27:11Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: oh. so it's different than scheme in this manner
2015-09-18T21:27:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2015-09-18T21:27:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's basicaly _the_ difference
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2015-09-18T21:27:25Z phoe_krk_: you could type funcname in REPL and get something like <function:#*&%#*>
2015-09-18T21:27:31Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: then it would work, I see
2015-09-18T21:27:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to do #'function in lisp
2015-09-18T21:27:43Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: got it
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2015-09-18T21:28:52Z aeth: Ok, so I can express the rule very clearly and simply now: in shell-repl mode, it looks for ( in the first non-whitespace position. If it's not there, it implicitly wraps the input stream in ()s and then evals.
2015-09-18T21:29:19Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I see a possible problem
2015-09-18T21:29:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: Then you couldn't get the value of variables, right?
2015-09-18T21:29:36Z phoe_krk_: precisely
2015-09-18T21:29:46Z phoe_krk_: unless, um
2015-09-18T21:29:55Z phoe_krk_: first define x to be 42
2015-09-18T21:29:55Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: (defun value (x) x)
2015-09-18T21:30:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could special-case single-symbol lines
2015-09-18T21:30:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/-/ /g
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2015-09-18T21:30:22Z phoe_krk_: so you have to type "value x" to get a value of x
2015-09-18T21:30:26Z aeth: yes
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2015-09-18T21:30:34Z phoe_krk_: would make sense in a shell-repl
2015-09-18T21:30:48Z aeth: right, because the main use would be to e.g. navigate directories etc.
2015-09-18T21:30:53Z aeth: the stuff you do in bash/zsh/etc. today
2015-09-18T21:30:54Z phoe_krk_: aeth
2015-09-18T21:31:06Z phoe_krk_: just make a fsck-everything version of the shell-repl
2015-09-18T21:31:16Z phoe_krk_: everything you type is wrapped in arbitrary parens you can't edit
2015-09-18T21:31:19Z phoe_krk_: :P
2015-09-18T21:31:29Z phoe_krk_: so it's like ("stuff you can edit here") all the time
2015-09-18T21:31:55Z aeth: auto-wrapping it would then make it impossible to do (+ 1 1) in addition to + 1 1 because it will try to eval (2)
2015-09-18T21:32:10Z aeth: It has to have two rules, depending on the presence of (
2015-09-18T21:32:18Z phoe_krk_: hm.
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2015-09-18T21:32:24Z phoe_krk_: + 1 1 is a series of atoms
2015-09-18T21:32:35Z phoe_krk_: (+ 1 1) is a sexp that evals to 2
2015-09-18T21:32:54Z aeth: + 1 1 is a series of atoms in an implicit expression. If everything is an implicit expression, (+ 1 1) is a call to 2
2015-09-18T21:33:15Z phoe_krk_: but why would you want to call atoms in a repl?
2015-09-18T21:33:27Z aeth: to see the value of a variable
2015-09-18T21:33:35Z aeth: defparameter *x* 42
2015-09-18T21:33:44Z phoe_krk_: doesn't (x) work this way?
2015-09-18T21:33:49Z phoe_krk_: like, (x) evals to 42?
2015-09-18T21:33:54Z aeth: no
2015-09-18T21:34:00Z phoe_krk_: or am I scheming again?
2015-09-18T21:34:02Z aeth: (x) calls (function x)
2015-09-18T21:34:07Z phoe_krk_: kdsjhkdsjhg
2015-09-18T21:34:11Z phoe_krk_: separate namespaces
2015-09-18T21:34:12Z phoe_krk_: ;__;
2015-09-18T21:34:32Z aeth: (define x 42) (x) ; tries to call 42 in Scheme
2015-09-18T21:34:40Z aeth: Either way it doesn't work
2015-09-18T21:34:47Z phoe_krk_: oh, I see now
2015-09-18T21:34:52Z phoe_krk_: got it
2015-09-18T21:36:20Z phoe_krk_: so let's assume I type "x x" in the CL-shell
2015-09-18T21:36:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: ((function x) x) is, I think, the equivalent.
2015-09-18T21:37:11Z phoe_krk_: got it.
2015-09-18T21:37:15Z phoe_krk_: or rather, that I type /usr/bin/arbitraryprogramname in the CL-shell
2015-09-18T21:37:22Z phoe_krk_: would it throw an unbound symbol?
2015-09-18T21:37:47Z phoe_krk_: or try to first bind the symbol to an executable and then run it?
2015-09-18T21:38:09Z phoe_krk_: that would be important to consider; autobinding functions to executables
2015-09-18T21:38:13Z aeth: anyway, the cost of (defun value (&rest atoms) (values-list atoms)) or something is a small price to pay.
2015-09-18T21:38:42Z aeth: mostly to e.g. get the values of *x* *y* *z* or something
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2015-09-18T21:38:51Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I agree
2015-09-18T21:39:59Z phoe_krk_: let's say I want to make a "/usr/bin/program -n A B C" call, as I'd do it in bash
2015-09-18T21:40:06Z phoe_krk_: what would it look like in CLsh?
2015-09-18T21:40:07Z aeth: the harder part would be deciding exactly how much of a GNU shell to emulate... e.g. do you want a (ls :l "foo") function or a (ls -l "foo") macro, etc.
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2015-09-18T21:40:29Z aeth: and how many flags to support
2015-09-18T21:40:30Z phoe_krk_: aeth: depends on how much you want to bind
2015-09-18T21:40:54Z phoe_krk_: aeth: you can just not parse the flags altogether and simply pass them as a list of variables to the program
2015-09-18T21:41:06Z phoe_krk_: aeth: you're writing a shell, not a ls
2015-09-18T21:41:11Z aeth: (ls "foo" :l) probably makes more sense in Lisp
2015-09-18T21:41:35Z phoe_krk_: aeth: you'd need to support flags for *every* possible program in order to do that
2015-09-18T21:41:55Z aeth: phoe_krk_: well I was thinking more along the lines of M-x eshell than M-x term or M-x shell
2015-09-18T21:42:21Z aeth: they might do things similarly to my approach. + 1 1 and (+ 1 1) both seem to work in eshell
2015-09-18T21:42:39Z phoe_krk_: aeth: nevertheless, you'd actually have to build a wrapper around a lot of utils in order to make it work; a wrapper I consider unnecessary
2015-09-18T21:43:35Z aeth: phoe_krk_: why pass to ls instead of write something on top of e.g. cl-fad:list-directory?
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2015-09-18T21:43:39Z aeth: The latter would also work on Windows
2015-09-18T21:43:50Z phoe_krk_: aeth: hm
2015-09-18T21:44:00Z phoe_krk_: aeth: that would write not only the shell, but also its ecosystem
2015-09-18T21:44:09Z aeth: right, like eshell
2015-09-18T21:44:21Z phoe_krk_: aeth: if you want to do that, sure thing, but then a ls wouldn't be a ls - that's one downside I can see
2015-09-18T21:44:32Z aeth: right, in eshell it isn't either
2015-09-18T21:45:08Z phoe_krk_: actually
2015-09-18T21:45:14Z aeth: This would essentially be the basis of the eshell component of whatever CL editor eventually replaces emacs assuming CLIM or something like CLIM is ever updated and completed.
2015-09-18T21:45:23Z phoe_krk_: you want to execute "rm -rf /" let's assume
2015-09-18T21:45:25Z aeth: Someone else can make term, shell, etc. if they want
2015-09-18T21:45:42Z phoe_krk_: you could do something like (exec rm -rf /)
2015-09-18T21:45:56Z phoe_krk_: which finds an external binary of rm and passes the rest of the arguments to it
2015-09-18T21:46:07Z aeth: There's probably a way in eshell to run the actual program. I think eshell only runs the actual program if it doesn't come with it.
2015-09-18T21:46:10Z phoe_krk_: or you could (rm / :r :f)
2015-09-18T21:46:20Z phoe_krk_: which calls the CLsh's version of rm
2015-09-18T21:46:29Z phoe_krk_: and that, I would find rather good
2015-09-18T21:46:30Z aeth: right
2015-09-18T21:46:41Z phoe_krk_: a clear distinction whether you run the local version or an arbitrary binary
2015-09-18T21:46:50Z phoe_krk_: and you can easily compare the differences
2015-09-18T21:46:55Z phoe_krk_: simply put exec in the first place of the list
2015-09-18T21:47:01Z aeth: This isn't a hard problem, it's been done before, it's essentially eshell. This is what happens when you want to do a Lisp editor. You copy emacs a lot.
2015-09-18T21:47:16Z aeth: The trick is to copy the good parts, not the stuck-in-the-1980s parts
2015-09-18T21:47:17Z phoe_krk_: I don't have any emacs experience :P
2015-09-18T21:47:26Z phoe_krk_: I write what I think would be useful
2015-09-18T21:47:45Z phoe_krk_: and, while a CLed versions of ls, rm, everything would be nice (especially vi or nano~)
2015-09-18T21:48:00Z phoe_krk_: there needs to be a well-defined way of calling arbitrary programs.
2015-09-18T21:48:23Z aeth: I don't think emacs's eshell went as far as supporting vi
2015-09-18T21:48:25Z aeth: oh wait, I'm wrong
2015-09-18T21:48:32Z phoe_krk_: evil mode?
2015-09-18T21:48:42Z aeth: I just typed "vi" in eshell and it took me to vim running in term (I am guessing M-x term)
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2015-09-18T21:48:55Z aeth: So I guess it falls back to term now, which is kind of cool
2015-09-18T21:49:01Z aeth: It didn't do this a few years ago
2015-09-18T21:49:02Z phoe_krk_: yes
2015-09-18T21:49:05Z phoe_krk_: it should do that
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2015-09-18T21:49:17Z aeth: So I guess eshell now supports an editor
2015-09-18T21:49:19Z phoe_krk_: falling back to *nix terminals in such cases, when running arbitrary programs
2015-09-18T21:49:19Z Bike: support execve, maybe put some wrappers to coerce various things to strings, done?
2015-09-18T21:49:47Z phoe_krk_: to strings?
2015-09-18T21:49:48Z aeth: (by "an editor", I mean an editor other than ed, the official Unix editor)
2015-09-18T21:49:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: maybe I can use emacs now
2015-09-18T21:50:10Z aeth: https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
2015-09-18T21:50:10Z phoe_krk_: (by "an editor", I mean an editor other than emacs, the official GNU editor)*
2015-09-18T21:50:11Z phoe_krk_: FTFY
2015-09-18T21:50:12Z Bike: phoe_krk_: i mean, 'arbitrary programs' in the unix ecosystem take argv.
2015-09-18T21:50:19Z phoe_krk_: got it
2015-09-18T21:50:33Z Bike: (and an environment)
2015-09-18T21:51:11Z phoe_krk_: actually
2015-09-18T21:51:13Z aeth: eshell supports ed natively, no reliance on M-x term
2015-09-18T21:51:21Z phoe_krk_: emacs should run emacs whenever you want an editor
2015-09-18T21:51:47Z phoe_krk_: this goes well with the overall Lisp paradigm of recursion
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2015-09-18T21:52:16Z emaczen: Which compiler works the best with the SLDB in your opinions?
2015-09-18T21:52:37Z emaczen: I am hoping for something similar to the elisp debugger
2015-09-18T21:54:49Z phoe_krk_: aeth: what is the cost of attaching a REPL to an already working Lisp core? if it's tiny, you could just run a Lisp and then simply attach CL-shells to it as virtual terminals that can be connected to ttys or ssh
2015-09-18T21:55:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_krk_: That's basically what slime does
2015-09-18T21:55:47Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: :P thanks
2015-09-18T21:56:17Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: then again, designing the CLshell from the architectural point of view, you'd need a CL daemon running in order to use a shell
2015-09-18T21:56:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just run swank as /bin/init
2015-09-18T21:56:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: or something like that
2015-09-18T21:57:04Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: that would be quite huge, honestly
2015-09-18T21:57:17Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: swank would need to set up a whole Linux machine, graphics, networking, services and so on
2015-09-18T21:57:38Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: I imagine it more as a daemon/service running in background that any instances of CLshell can connect to
2015-09-18T21:57:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: It wouldn't be too difficult conceptually, you'd just have to translate all the init scripts to lisp
2015-09-18T21:58:04Z phoe_krk_: and suddenly, CLed systemd
2015-09-18T21:58:09Z phoe_krk_ cringes
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2015-09-18T21:58:33Z fiddlerwoaroof prefers sysvinit
2015-09-18T21:58:39Z phoe_krk_ as well
2015-09-18T21:58:42Z phoe_krk_: I'd have the init scripts set as they are and rather focus on a daemon shells can connect to
2015-09-18T21:58:53Z phoe_krk_: this way, bash and clsh can coexist in a single environment
2015-09-18T21:59:22Z phoe_krk_: and I think I'd like interoperability when it comes to various shells
2015-09-18T21:59:36Z phoe_krk_: you could always go #!/bin/clsh or something if you write a cl-shell script
2015-09-18T21:59:53Z phoe_krk_: uh
2015-09-18T21:59:55Z phoe_krk_: aeth
2015-09-18T22:00:03Z phoe_krk_: multiline evals
2015-09-18T22:00:08Z phoe_krk_: imagine this:
2015-09-18T22:00:10Z phoe_krk_: + 1 1
2015-09-18T22:00:13Z phoe_krk_: versus
2015-09-18T22:00:14Z phoe_krk_: + 1
2015-09-18T22:00:16Z phoe_krk_: 1
2015-09-18T22:00:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: require ()s
2015-09-18T22:00:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: as long as the other shells are installed you wouldn't have to lose them
2015-09-18T22:01:04Z phoe_krk_: when there are parens, all newlines are ignored; when there aren't parens, that would eval in a wrong way
2015-09-18T22:01:29Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: I know, but I don't want to rewrite the whole init subsystem
2015-09-18T22:01:44Z phoe_krk_: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather keep it to a single shell that's all CL
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2015-09-18T22:04:53Z aeth: phoe_krk_: Make the parens optional only at the shell repl imo. Shell scripts are bad imo because they optimize for both interactive use and scripting use and so fail at both
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2015-09-18T22:05:42Z aeth: Then the clsh is just another library on CL
2015-09-18T22:06:31Z aeth: Anything multi-line should require ()s, even at the REPL
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2015-09-18T22:06:57Z phoe_krk_: aeth: right; require parens.
2015-09-18T22:07:19Z phoe_krk_: aeth: so, um, the #!/bin/clsh script is literally a common lisp program
2015-09-18T22:07:43Z aeth: That auto-loads the clsh package from quicklisp
2015-09-18T22:07:53Z phoe_krk_: aeth: yes
2015-09-18T22:08:20Z phoe_krk_: aeth: so /bin/clsh itself would actually just be a REPL that loads a clsh package from quicklisp, too
2015-09-18T22:09:41Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I'd also disable the autodebugging features, so when you mistype and hit Enter you don't get a choice of what you want to do, abort/retry/fail/debug: you just get an error and get dropped into another REPL prompt
2015-09-18T22:10:04Z phoe_krk_: you get "unknown command" just like in other civilized shells that aren't suicide linux
2015-09-18T22:10:17Z aeth: well, like in eshell
2015-09-18T22:10:25Z aeth: This is basically eshell
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2015-09-18T22:11:18Z aeth: Try out M-x eshell even though you're not an emacs user and even though that's elisp
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2015-09-18T22:11:43Z aeth: See how they do it
2015-09-18T22:11:50Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I don't feel like it at the moment :P maybe another day, but I certainly will
2015-09-18T22:12:16Z phoe_krk_: aeth: and then I'll start writing down how I see a possible CL-shell, what I'd like it to do, its specification draft and so on
2015-09-18T22:12:40Z phoe_krk_: aeth: if I ever defeat my procrastination for long enough to write any such document, I'll post them up
2015-09-18T22:14:02Z aeth: now we just need a garbage collector, a filesystem, drivers, a windowing system, a graphics toolkit, opengl, an SDL-replacement, networking, a web browser, ..., and an editor
2015-09-18T22:14:16Z aeth: I guess a kernel too
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2015-09-18T22:14:35Z phoe_krk_: aeth: and an emacs implementation
2015-09-18T22:14:58Z aeth: no, my list makes emacs unnecessary
2015-09-18T22:15:07Z phoe_krk_: no, emacs makes your list unnecessary
2015-09-18T22:15:11Z phoe_krk_: :P
2015-09-18T22:15:33Z aeth: if only emacs used the best lisp the 1990s offers
2015-09-18T22:15:44Z phoe_krk_: aeth: I say we should begin with a shell and a textedit
2015-09-18T22:16:06Z phoe_krk_: aeth: just so we can build the rest in a comfortable REPL-editor hybrid
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2015-09-18T22:17:44Z aeth: That exists, as emacs+SLIME
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2015-09-18T22:18:58Z aeth: A higher priority would probably either be fixing McCLIM or forking and finishing the incomplete replacement to McCLIM, and then building a window manager for CLIM apps
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2015-09-18T22:22:05Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis
2015-09-18T22:22:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does CLIMatis work at all?
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2015-09-18T22:23:49Z aeth: I don't know, but it would probably be easier to start there than from scratch
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2015-09-18T22:24:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: There is also a Common lisp emacs, that kinda works
2015-09-18T22:24:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. it loads and lets you type a bit, but immediately blows up
2015-09-18T22:24:55Z aeth: hmm, nevermind, it doesn't have a license
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2015-09-18T22:26:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: What does stumpwm use for a graphical toolkit?
2015-09-18T22:26:25Z aeth: The emacs is actually low priority imo. emacs/slime works for now. Actually being able to do graphics is a higher priority.
2015-09-18T22:26:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: couldn't you just build up from that?
2015-09-18T22:26:46Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it works directly on X. I could be wrong.
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2015-09-18T22:27:05Z jasom: I'm pretty sure it uses clx
2015-09-18T22:28:01Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks that LISP libraries go out of their way to be ungooglable
2015-09-18T22:28:41Z aeth: !gh <library>
2015-09-18T22:28:48Z aeth: Not unduckable
2015-09-18T22:29:23Z aeth: although, idk, is !!! a valid name?
2015-09-18T22:29:35Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: just add lisp to the search
2015-09-18T22:29:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
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2015-09-18T22:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: How much work does Mcclim need?
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2015-09-18T22:46:58Z eudoxia: does anyone know if any lisp implementation has files with the .cm file extension
2015-09-18T22:47:15Z eudoxia: i've seen some .cl files in allegro code but .cm is, well, new
2015-09-18T22:47:27Z eudoxia: and i doubt it stands for connection machine lisp
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2015-09-18T22:50:57Z reb`: Common Music ?
2015-09-18T22:52:37Z eudoxia: oh that makes sense
2015-09-18T22:52:51Z eudoxia: thanks reb`
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2015-09-19T00:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: is it possible to temporarily switch to a case-sensitive readtable?
2015-09-19T00:40:15Z emaczen: What GUIs are recommended?
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2015-09-19T00:40:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: qtools seems to work well
2015-09-19T00:41:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: from what I can tell, nearly everyone uses Qt these days.
2015-09-19T00:43:52Z emaczen: who is "everyone"?
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2015-09-19T00:56:20Z emaczen: What other GUI toolkits are there, can someone give me a compare/contrast?
2015-09-19T00:56:56Z White_Flame:    the ones I've worked with are LTK and serving HTML through sockets
2015-09-19T00:57:57Z White_Flame: ltk is good for simple projects, but since it's a text marshalling protocol to a display server, pretty slow for highly interactive applications
2015-09-19T00:58:50Z White_Flame: there's also bindings to webkit, for directly controlling a HTML rendering window, though I've not used those
2015-09-19T00:59:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are several gtk bindings, but I remember trying them and abandoning them for some reason
2015-09-19T00:59:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might have been that I couldn't get anything to work on OSX
2015-09-19T01:00:15Z White_Flame: I kind of prefer HTML nowadays.  super accessible, quite powerful, ignore all the legacy crap, and it does quite a lot for you
2015-09-19T01:00:30Z White_Flame: even though it bears a good helping of fundamental suck
2015-09-19T01:01:19Z White_Flame: and if you squint at it the right way, it shares some ballpark of ideas with CLIM
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2015-09-19T01:01:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's this http://ceramic.github.io
2015-09-19T01:02:09Z aeth: HTML almost has the right idea for GUIs. I like the separation of tags and styles that the newer style semantic-focused HTML is supposed to have.
2015-09-19T01:03:56Z White_Flame: and I like that you can have fine-grained interactive elements flowing along inside text
2015-09-19T01:04:07Z White_Flame: as opposed to just compartmentalized widgets
2015-09-19T01:04:43Z aeth: If someone were to come up with a new CL UI thing from scratch instead of basing it on CLIM it would probably borrow a lot from HTML+CSS
2015-09-19T01:04:57Z White_Flame: yeah, that's been in my brain for a really long time
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2015-09-19T01:05:47Z emaczen: what about mcclim -- I've heard that mentioned before, but nobody just mentioned it.
2015-09-19T01:06:15Z aeth: I haven't tried CLIM. I've heard both good and bad things about the concepts behind it, e.g. that CLIM2 is actually contradictory in its spec
2015-09-19T01:06:28Z White_Flame: I've heard of people working on it.  I haven't heard people actually _using_ it
2015-09-19T01:06:34Z aeth: But afaik the only working CLIMs are proprietary CLIMs. McCLIM is at some point of half-working.
2015-09-19T01:07:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The various samples I've tried seem to run fine in McCLIM
2015-09-19T01:07:20Z aeth: I suspect someone will make a quick minimalist CL GUI toolkit at some point and basically be the Linux to CLIM's Hurd, i.e. remove all interest in CLIM by implementing something simpler.
2015-09-19T01:07:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: But the cairo backend just blows up when you use it
2015-09-19T01:09:21Z aeth: What I'd like to see is an alternative to the web for documentation. Remote like the web, but designed for Lisp documentation so closer to info in purpose. For e.g. integrating in emacs and/or other Lispy editors.
2015-09-19T01:09:47Z aeth: The web has gotten incredibly bloated in the last 5 years, to the point where I might have to upgrade my 2010 high end computer not because of games but because of the damn browser.
2015-09-19T01:09:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-19T01:10:00Z White_Flame: that gets into "semantic web" territory, where apps can understand the content of a page
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2015-09-19T01:10:19Z White_Flame: and automatically extract data for different presentations
2015-09-19T01:10:29Z aeth: I noscript and adblock (I'm going to switch to ublock, I guess) and that's still not enough to escape the bloat
2015-09-19T01:10:57Z White_Flame freely trades off memory for security, when it comes to privacy plugins
2015-09-19T01:11:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: A lot of the doc sites actually work pretty well in w3m
2015-09-19T01:11:35Z emaczen: fiddlerwoaroof: What are doc sites?
2015-09-19T01:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: documentation
2015-09-19T01:11:49Z emaczen: ahh
2015-09-19T01:11:57Z aeth: http://httparchive.org/trends.php?s=All&minlabel=Nov+15+2010&maxlabel=Sep+1+2015
2015-09-19T01:12:11Z aeth: Most of the bloat increase is JS (which isn't just bandwidth since it also runs client-side)
2015-09-19T01:12:22Z aeth: completely pointless JS like reimplemting scrolling but worse
2015-09-19T01:12:58Z aeth: Surprisingly fonts have increased a lot too. Probably to make up for the fact that browsers afaik don't ship with fonts so unless you web font you get different experiences on every device. This would be easy in e.g. an emacs clone by just shipping with fonts for the documentation
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2015-09-19T01:13:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: The browsers should implement an api where thy offer to download and install a font on first use
2015-09-19T01:14:00Z aeth: Obviously you can't just create a new web and replace e.g. Facebook or YouTube, but you could probably do something like sending s-expressions of semantic documentation directly into emacs to skip the web or something.
2015-09-19T01:14:13Z aeth: With https or something.
2015-09-19T01:14:29Z aeth: Won't cover most use cases, but will probably cover half or more of my own use cases, at least.
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2015-09-19T01:15:08Z aeth: e.g. I use duckduckgo's !l1sp way too much. Integrating its search directly into the editor would save a lot of time.
2015-09-19T01:15:44Z emaczen: Can anyone recommend a commonlisp emacs?
2015-09-19T01:15:49Z aeth: To get around hyperspec copyright issues, there could be an HTML parser just good enough to parse the hyperspec (which looks like it was designed for geocities so probably isn't that fancy).
2015-09-19T01:17:03Z aeth: emaczen: I'm not aware of anything in Common Lisp that competes with SLIME+paredit. Emacs itself isn't that good, it's the stuff on emacs that is.
2015-09-19T01:17:20Z aeth: I wonder if someone could port SLIME to Common Lisp
2015-09-19T01:18:27Z emaczen: aeth: Oh yes, I have a lot of goodies like helm and company-mode but now I am just curious...
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2015-09-19T01:19:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: there have been various attempts to rewrite emacs in common lisp
2015-09-19T01:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't actually found one that works
2015-09-19T01:20:26Z emaczen: I just quickloaded "climacs" but I have no idea how to start it... lol
2015-09-19T01:20:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think its (climacs:climacs)
2015-09-19T01:21:28Z emaczen: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks!
2015-09-19T01:21:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: It blows up as soon as you try to open a file
2015-09-19T01:22:52Z emaczen: Why?
2015-09-19T01:22:57Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: And don't forget my failed 3Dmacs.
2015-09-19T01:23:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, I hit the wrong combination
2015-09-19T01:24:25Z warweasle: fiddlerwoaroof: C-A-F25 u x die-horribly  ?
2015-09-19T01:24:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, just C-x f
2015-09-19T01:25:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-x C-f seems to work, but the other one pops up a directory browser that crashes
2015-09-19T01:26:18Z warweasle can still imagine a universal editor for everything...and typing text in frosted letters across a shiny glass background...
2015-09-19T01:26:22Z emaczen: It wouldn't open up a directory like emacs does with dired
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2015-09-19T01:35:52Z aeth: A universal editor wouldn't be GNU emacs, it's too buffer-oriented and because it runs in the terminal it gives up too much (although it's starting to change with e.g. a PDF viewer that only works outside of the terminal)
2015-09-19T01:36:20Z warweasle: aeth: That's just the best way I can describe it.
2015-09-19T01:36:39Z aeth: It'd be great to have something like inkscape, GIMP, emacs, etc., all within the same "application" (really, it would be an embedded application widget within a simple frame-oriented pseudo-window-manager, probably)
2015-09-19T01:37:00Z aeth: Then you could e.g. edit an image in one frame and script some filter on the image in another
2015-09-19T01:37:26Z aeth: or simultaneously see the XML representation of an SVG in an emacs-like editor, while WYSIWYG editing it in another frame
2015-09-19T01:37:46Z warweasle: aeth: Here was a demonstration I created as a proof of concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmWLOyZo454
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2015-09-19T01:38:54Z aeth: oh it would be great to e.g. get 3D editing within that universal editor too.
2015-09-19T01:39:15Z warweasle: Here is how I wanted to implement changing objects in 2D or 3D. (A text buffer would just be a buffer with nothing but text so you wouldn't need the "halo".) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjy3ajmx9Fs
2015-09-19T01:39:35Z aeth: I haven't built things on a modern game engine (most of their tools are Windows-only, anyway, although that's starting to change) but I suspect game engines these days have something close to what I'm talking about with e.g. built in scripting and level editing etc.
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2015-09-19T01:40:31Z warweasle: aeth: But game engines are for games. Think of building 2D or 3D *applications* by using lisp's hierarchical syntax.
2015-09-19T01:41:17Z aeth: warweasle: well yes I think games are just a particularly difficult 3D special case.
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2015-09-19T01:41:58Z warweasle: aeth: You want a Rolodex? Just create a 2d array of 3d text wigits, fill the first one with the person's picture, fill the rest with text data. The file format is already done, since lisp can fit in lisp.
2015-09-19T01:42:18Z aeth: I'd be more interested in a total VR experience although that's probably 15+ years away to get acceptable resolution because of how close the wearables are to your eyes.
2015-09-19T01:42:20Z warweasle: aeth: You want to make a map and put 3d Models on it? Np.
2015-09-19T01:42:34Z aeth: Right now I have two large screens, but I'd easily trade that for something roughly equivalent with essentially infinite virtual screens
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2015-09-19T01:44:20Z warweasle just wants to compose applications like I do lisp code.
2015-09-19T01:44:26Z drmeister: ECL DEFCLASS calls a function that uses EVAL.
2015-09-19T01:44:37Z drmeister: This causes problems for me because it invokes the compiler at startup.
2015-09-19T01:45:02Z drmeister: I'd like to change it so that it compiles the forms at compile time.
2015-09-19T01:46:22Z drmeister: The DEFCLASS macro expands to:   > (macroexpand '(defclass d () ()))  -->   (EVAL-WHEN (COMPILE LOAD EVAL) (CLOS:LOAD-DEFCLASS 'D 'NIL NIL NIL))
2015-09-19T01:47:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/V1RkfROB/
2015-09-19T01:47:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mqw8bSEv/
2015-09-19T01:47:57Z warweasle: aeth: But don't worry. I've given up on that particular windmill.
2015-09-19T01:47:59Z drmeister: I'm thinking of rearranging this so that the initforms are compiled at compile time
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2015-09-19T01:48:23Z aeth: warweasle: no it's pretty easy all you need is enough money so that you can burn through it all on a LispOS
2015-09-19T01:48:27Z aeth: Since it's a more than one person project
2015-09-19T01:49:06Z warweasle: aeth: Even with lisp, it seems...
2015-09-19T01:49:23Z aeth: The problem isn't coding, it's coding something that interacts with the rest of the world.
2015-09-19T01:49:29Z aeth: The Lisp part is easy.
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2015-09-19T01:50:32Z aeth: e.g. if you wanted a LispOS you'd want a web browser, and that will take a team no matter the language just because web browsers are expected to work around so many edge cases of bad HTML
2015-09-19T01:51:57Z aeth: warweasle: It's unfortunate that LispMs didn't survive because imagine composing entire operating systems like you do Lisp code. i.e. LispOS + virtualization
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2015-09-19T01:56:42Z warweasle: aeth: I still think, if lispers could pull together we could make something greater than anyone has seen.
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2015-09-19T01:56:52Z warweasle: aeth: Just that herding cats is hard.
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2015-09-19T02:00:40Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks that the terminal is the ideal UI
2015-09-19T02:01:05Z aeth thinks that the SLIME REPL is about 2/3 of the way to a good-enough UI
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2015-09-19T02:02:03Z fiddlerwoaroof just wants to be able to work remotely over slow-ish connections
2015-09-19T02:02:37Z aeth: warweasle: I think the hardest part would be having money in order to pay people to focus on something full time. Open source or not, you need people with full time focus on important projects.
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2015-09-19T02:03:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you could mash up SLIME + mosh and have a good clsh + terminal emaultor for backwards compatibility, it would be pretty ideal
2015-09-19T02:03:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: kickstarter?
2015-09-19T02:03:36Z aeth: More like Patreon. You want continual funding.
2015-09-19T02:03:42Z aeth: But Patreon's more for artistic stuff.
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2015-09-19T02:04:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could do a series of kickstarters for sub-projects
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2015-09-19T02:04:22Z aeth: One possible business model is e.g. Lisp hosting. I'm not aware of any hosts who focus on Common Lisp, so perhaps there would be a bit of a premium at first before you're forced to stay competitive in costs.
2015-09-19T02:05:05Z aeth: Platform as a service?
2015-09-19T02:05:27Z theos: i would say, i start a new cult and get the followers involved for free. they will even donate to the cause
2015-09-19T02:05:42Z aeth: theos: I would try that, but GNU kind of has the whole cult thing covered for now.
2015-09-19T02:05:48Z theos: s/i start/start
2015-09-19T02:05:49Z aeth: It would be hard to compete.
2015-09-19T02:06:06Z warweasle: theos: I tried the cult thing. IRS shut me down.
2015-09-19T02:06:11Z theos: aeth maybe i am ignorant but i havent seen the gnu cult yet
2015-09-19T02:06:25Z aeth: Apparently GNU's commitment to "one day" start integrating Guile to stuff is good enough to appease some Lispers.
2015-09-19T02:06:43Z aeth: One day as of an essay from more than a decade ago.
2015-09-19T02:08:02Z theos: warweasle you need to learn how the other cult leaders do it
2015-09-19T02:10:46Z aeth: theos: how about instead of a cult you gamify programming? Replace Github with an "implement this part of a LispOS to try to get to a high score"
2015-09-19T02:11:06Z aeth: try to get the pull request record
2015-09-19T02:11:27Z theos: aeth that will start a cult following too. you cant do anything without cults
2015-09-19T02:12:21Z aeth: Instead of paying people, just offer 10 million points for a kernel.
2015-09-19T02:12:41Z aeth: An extra 5 million if it reads the proprietary nvidia drivers so you can get 3D graphics working.
2015-09-19T02:12:55Z theos: gamification is a trick often used by cults. and every group is a cult. harley davidson(sp?) has a big cult. for example
2015-09-19T02:17:25Z warweasle: If I had a cult I think I would just call it a day, leave programming behind and sleep on a big pile of money with lots of beautiful women...And I want nice car. Something with a turbine-hybrid jet engine. Nothing fancy though.
2015-09-19T02:17:39Z aeth: Lisp has a bit of a cult behind it, e.g. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
2015-09-19T02:17:54Z aeth: It even has a term for the infidels, "Blub"
2015-09-19T02:19:25Z theos: :D
2015-09-19T02:19:59Z warweasle: aeth: We call them normies. We don't want to sound like we are too far above them. Simply first among equals.
2015-09-19T02:20:20Z warweasle: aeth: But we must be superior or why join us?
2015-09-19T02:20:21Z XachX: aeth: the infidels are the "averages"
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2015-09-19T02:21:04Z theos: if you want to port everything to CL, start a doomsday cult
2015-09-19T02:23:30Z emaczen: commonlisp can't find libfixposix even though I found it with "locate"
2015-09-19T02:23:30Z warweasle: theos: I'm pretty sure lispers have already formed our creation myths, so that's the next illogical step.
2015-09-19T02:24:31Z theos: warweasle CL_god darn it!
2015-09-19T02:27:21Z warweasle: theos: Grahmitt!
2015-09-19T02:28:27Z warweasle: theos: Alonzo H. Church
2015-09-19T02:28:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a elisp compatibility layer for Common lisp?
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2015-09-19T02:29:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. a set of functions and macros that minimizes the porting necessary?
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2015-09-19T02:29:57Z White_Flame: warweasle: yep: https://xkcd.com/224/
2015-09-19T02:33:14Z warweasle: White_Flame: I love those two comics
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2015-09-19T02:38:11Z warweasle: White_Flame: But there are so many I also love hyperbole and a half, but it's about depression...so take that for what it's worth.
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2015-09-19T02:41:06Z aeth: Did you know that the UFOs will arrive once we build an operating system that is compatible with their protocol? And since there's only one language with good enough metaprogramming... time for doomsday culting :-p
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2015-09-19T02:50:40Z emaczen: Does Hemlock have support for buffers like gnu emacs?
2015-09-19T02:50:43Z warweasle: aeth: And white sneakers and Kool-Aid
2015-09-19T02:51:02Z emaczen: I've used Hemlock on a Mac before and I just had a ton of frames open everywhere.
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2015-09-19T03:08:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be nice if I could actually get Hemlock to run on my mac
2015-09-19T03:08:51Z emaczen: fiddlerwoaroof: Try CCL
2015-09-19T03:08:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It tried both
2015-09-19T03:09:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe I should try the qt version rather than the tty one
2015-09-19T03:09:50Z emaczen: I downloaded CCL from their site and never had a problem with Hemlock.
2015-09-19T03:11:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: The qt version gives me: Undefined function HEMLOCK.QT::SX called with arguments (#<QSettings 0x2AA0AB30>)
2015-09-19T03:11:27Z emaczen: Are you quicloading?
2015-09-19T03:11:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: yep
2015-09-19T03:12:19Z emaczen: You are on a mac right?
2015-09-19T03:12:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yep, 10.10
2015-09-19T03:12:47Z emaczen: By "their site" I meant the clozure associates.
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2015-09-19T03:13:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: let me try that, I think that's where I got mine
2015-09-19T03:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: but it might have been homebrew
2015-09-19T03:13:48Z emaczen: Yeah I think I originally tried getting it with macports...
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2015-09-19T03:14:08Z emaczen: I don't remember exact details though
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2015-09-19T03:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Same error
2015-09-19T03:18:11Z emaczen: fiddlerwoaroof: There is a #ccl channel
2015-09-19T03:18:24Z emaczen: I've gotten really good help from them before.
2015-09-19T03:18:32Z emaczen: Usually they are in here though too.
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2015-09-19T03:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think this is a problem with lisp
2015-09-19T03:21:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. with ccl
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2015-09-19T03:27:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, I got it working
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2015-09-19T03:34:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: I didn't initially realize that you wanted me to run the hemlock that came with ccl
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2015-09-19T03:46:52Z Ober: is there a way to assign something in slime without it returning a really long value? e.g. (defvar foo (postmodern-query-with thousands entries)). it causes a very long line of the return and emacs chokes
2015-09-19T03:47:29Z nyef: That doesn't seem right... DEFVAR should return FOO, surely?
2015-09-19T03:47:43Z nyef: (the name of the variable defined, not its value.)
2015-09-19T03:47:49Z Bike: Ober: usually i set *print-length* to 20 or so, and that takes care of long lists and such.
2015-09-19T03:48:17Z Ober: which is a ton of entries that become a single long line, and thus being emacs achilles heel
2015-09-19T03:48:42Z Ober: in other emacs repls you do ;nil at the end like erb.
2015-09-19T03:48:44Z Ober: irb
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2015-09-19T03:49:58Z nyef: Now, if you're getting that via SETF or similar, maybe you want (progn ... nil) ?
2015-09-19T03:50:31Z Ober: it might have been setf
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2015-09-19T03:55:21Z Ober: major difference in time between defvar and setf
2015-09-19T03:56:56Z boogaloo: I'm just starting with Common Lisp. Suppose I want to test reduce function with an arbitrary first argument, say f. In a language I used before I'd write something like (reduce #'f '(a b c) :initial-value 'x) and it would evaluate to (((f x a) b) c) but I don't see how to achieve that in Common Lisp: I get an error because f is not defined. Do I, by any chance, merely need some well-known macro technique for that?
2015-09-19T03:58:53Z White_Flame: typing (reduce ...) at the REPL is asking it to run the reduction, so yeah it needs something real to evaluate
2015-09-19T03:59:02Z boogaloo: *sorry, (f (f (f x a) b) c)
2015-09-19T03:59:18Z White_Flame: maybe what you want is (defun test () (reduce #'f ...)) and then you can defun f a few tunes and run (test) to try it out
2015-09-19T04:00:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: boogaloo: has f already beened defuned?
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2015-09-19T04:01:54Z boogaloo: fiddlerwoaroof No, that's the point. I got used to the fact that I can do this without defining (and quoting) anything. :-\
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2015-09-19T04:02:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: f has to be a function already. See: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155421
2015-09-19T04:03:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe you want something like (defun foo (f) (reduce f ...))) ?
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2015-09-19T04:03:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then (foo #'+) (foo #'-) etc.
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2015-09-19T04:08:01Z boogaloo: basically, i only have to grasp this: what exactly prevents Lisp from returning form (f x a)? I can evaluate a quoted form, and unquoted form with undefined first element will be returned, after all. All this is my attempt to understand its evalution process as quickly as possible... in terms of how it's different form that of Mathematica. :-)
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2015-09-19T04:08:55Z boogaloo: maybe it's just impossible.
2015-09-19T04:09:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisp automatically evals any unquoted forms
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2015-09-19T04:11:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: It reads in the forms and macro expands them to other forms. Evaluates the expanded forms. Prints the result and Loops
2015-09-19T04:11:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The quote means "don't evaluate this form"
2015-09-19T04:12:05Z boogaloo: So, `evaluation' and `macroexpansion' are considered as substantially different from each other?
2015-09-19T04:12:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, macroexpansion normally happens before evaluation
2015-09-19T04:13:16Z boogaloo: And only macros can return things like (f x a)?
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2015-09-19T04:13:29Z boogaloo: (with f undefined)
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2015-09-19T04:14:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe you want quasiquoting: `(f ,x ,a)
2015-09-19T04:14:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: that will return (f (value-of x) (value-of a))
2015-09-19T04:15:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a macro returns (f x a), that returned form will be evaluated
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2015-09-19T04:15:47Z boogaloo: Damn, this is counterintuitive. :-) OK, I guess I can't cheat the Universe and have to study from the beginning.
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2015-09-19T04:16:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: A macro is just a shortcut so that you don't have to write the code it expands to by hand
2015-09-19T04:16:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: They are just little programs that write other programs
2015-09-19T04:18:45Z boogaloo: I know. Well, only practice will do the thing, it seems.
2015-09-19T04:19:11Z boogaloo: Thank you.
2015-09-19T04:19:45Z Ober: does ccl support their ide gui on linux?
2015-09-19T04:19:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: boogaloo: You usually use the quasi quotes `(f ,a ,b ,c) to help produce the lists you want
2015-09-19T04:20:00Z rme: boogaloo: I don't really understand your question, I'm afraid.
2015-09-19T04:20:27Z rme: Ober: The ccl ide only works on OS X.
2015-09-19T04:20:43Z Ober: ok. :(
2015-09-19T04:21:58Z boogaloo: rme: Well, if there's no standard way to produce (f (f (f x) a) b) from reduce with f undefined, then there is no answer, and I have to be a good boy and study how eval works.
2015-09-19T04:23:01Z rme: I could make an IDE that worked on other systems, but first the open source fairies would need to sprinkle some fairy dust on my bank account to make it grow.
2015-09-19T04:23:38Z boogaloo: If there was a standard way, I'd tell myself `take Mathematica's eval modulo this Lisp program [that macroexpands reduce, or anything else, the way I described], and you'll get Lisp eval'.
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2015-09-19T04:39:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: boogaloo: does this do what you want: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BXB
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2015-09-19T05:44:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-19T05:51:41Z beach: drmeister: Are you still here?
2015-09-19T05:51:47Z drmeister: ECL has this big chunk of code that it EVAL's during startup.  This is slow for Clasp because it invokes the compiler.  Is there any reason to EVAL it rather than just compile it?
2015-09-19T05:51:49Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qZEN9Nmy/
2015-09-19T05:51:53Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-09-19T05:53:45Z beach: drmeister: I have asked this before, but didn't get a good answer: Why do you define things at start-up time?  Why aren't those definitions already in the executable file?
2015-09-19T05:55:51Z drmeister: Clasp can't put definitions for anything more compilicated than integers, strings or floats into the executable file.
2015-09-19T05:56:08Z drmeister: It has to build everything up at load time.   Is that answering the question?
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2015-09-19T05:56:46Z drmeister: LLVM Modules don't provide a way to represent complex data.
2015-09-19T05:57:09Z beach: Why is this related to LLVM?
2015-09-19T05:57:18Z drmeister: Especially not data that will look like C++ objects.   The only way to get a C++ object at load time is to run a constructor.
2015-09-19T05:57:27Z beach: I don't see why LLVM would be involved at start-up time either.
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2015-09-19T05:58:00Z beach: Why is there no way to take a running process and turn it into an executable?
2015-09-19T05:58:06Z drmeister: A LLVM function is invoked that builds all of the load time objects.
2015-09-19T05:58:35Z beach: Why are we talking load time when it is just starting an executable?
2015-09-19T05:58:36Z drmeister: That's not the C++ way.
2015-09-19T05:58:53Z drmeister: Load time is when the executable loads - isn't it?
2015-09-19T05:59:23Z drmeister: Here's an example.
2015-09-19T05:59:24Z beach: Well, there is a confusion in Unix because of ld being the linker.
2015-09-19T05:59:56Z drmeister: Let's say I compile-file this:    (defun my-list () '( 1 2 3 4 5))
2015-09-19T06:00:07Z beach: GNU Emacs knew how to turn an executable process into an executable file in 1984.
2015-09-19T06:00:10Z drmeister: How should '(1 2 3 4 5) be represented in the executable?
2015-09-19T06:00:32Z beach: As a pointer to a CONS cell that points to ....
2015-09-19T06:00:40Z drmeister: Right.  I can't do that.
2015-09-19T06:00:50Z drmeister: You control your memory representation.  I don't
2015-09-19T06:01:09Z beach: You don't even need to know your memory representation to do that.
2015-09-19T06:01:35Z beach: Just take the entire heap and stuff it into the DATA section of your file.
2015-09-19T06:02:36Z drmeister: I wish - and maybe with MPS I can do that.
2015-09-19T06:02:53Z beach: Why do you need MPS or anything else to do it?
2015-09-19T06:03:06Z beach: It is just a matter of copying bytes from memory to a file.
2015-09-19T06:03:14Z drmeister: Because MPS would compact it.
2015-09-19T06:03:28Z drmeister: I suppose if I didn't care how big the executable was (not that mine are small now)
2015-09-19T06:03:29Z beach: Why does it matter what MPS does?
2015-09-19T06:03:42Z rme: drmeister: Could you fasload said chunk of stuff?
2015-09-19T06:03:51Z drmeister: MPS will compact the heap into a smaller space
2015-09-19T06:04:01Z beach: drmeister: Why does it matter?
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2015-09-19T06:05:41Z drmeister: If the heap is large and fragmented, wouldn't that be a problem?
2015-09-19T06:05:50Z beach: No
2015-09-19T06:05:54Z drmeister: I'd have to write the whole thing out
2015-09-19T06:05:58Z beach: Yes.
2015-09-19T06:06:18Z beach: Why does it matter?
2015-09-19T06:06:22Z drmeister: Here's what I do now:
2015-09-19T06:06:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/3iu4EBrJ/
2015-09-19T06:06:56Z drmeister: I represent the list as code and build it at startup
2015-09-19T06:07:19Z beach: No wonder starting it takes time.
2015-09-19T06:07:31Z drmeister: This doesn't actually take much time at all.
2015-09-19T06:07:51Z drmeister: The long startup times are coming from when the compiler is invoked during startup.
2015-09-19T06:08:15Z beach: I see absolutely no reason for the compiler to be invoked at start-up.
2015-09-19T06:08:44Z drmeister: Neither did I.  But the ECL code uses EVAL in several places.
2015-09-19T06:09:04Z beach: To define things.
2015-09-19T06:09:10Z drmeister: And the way I've got things set up I invoke the compiler to compile the argument of EVAL and then execute that.
2015-09-19T06:09:20Z beach: I see absolutely no reason for defining things at start-up.
2015-09-19T06:09:26Z drmeister: I'm puzzling over it myself.
2015-09-19T06:10:02Z drmeister: But I guess they have a fast bytecode compiler
2015-09-19T06:10:14Z drmeister: But I just found this in the ECL code.
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2015-09-19T06:10:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sUZy1HuV/
2015-09-19T06:10:35Z beach: Wow, Unix has really managed to brainwash several generations of programmers.
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2015-09-19T06:10:50Z drmeister: How is that?
2015-09-19T06:11:15Z beach: The distinction between file and executable memory.
2015-09-19T06:11:36Z beach: We knew how to remove that distinction in Multics.  Then Unix came along...
2015-09-19T06:12:25Z beach: Also [reading the logs] the existence of a kernel that requires me to reboot after updates.
2015-09-19T06:12:38Z beach: People consider it normal now.
2015-09-19T06:12:42Z beach: Sad, really.
2015-09-19T06:12:43Z drmeister: Well, when I started I was using reference counted pointers on the regular heap.  It seemed like a really bad idea to write the entire malloc heap into an executable. So I decided to generate code that built the objects.  It worked fine.
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2015-09-19T06:13:39Z drmeister: ECL has this comment about that EVAL:   ;; These method combinations are bytecompiled, for simplicity.
2015-09-19T06:13:45Z drmeister: simplicity
2015-09-19T06:16:28Z drmeister: But on this idea of writing the heap to a file.  It's better with a compacting garbage collector isn't it?  You have it compact everything into a contiguous space with no gaps and then save that - that would be best wouldn't it?
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2015-09-19T06:17:40Z beach: Sure.  But why complicate things?  Your biggest problem now is not the size of the executable.  It is start-up time.  And you are about to spend a lot of energy to try to make it faster to define things at start-up time when no things should be defined then.
2015-09-19T06:18:04Z beach: If the executable size is a problem, use gzip on it.
2015-09-19T06:18:28Z drmeister: I timed the startup, it slows way down when it hits CLOS and starts invoking the compiler.
2015-09-19T06:18:53Z beach: I see absolutely no reason for the compiler to be invoked at start-up time.
2015-09-19T06:19:01Z drmeister: I agree.
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2015-09-19T06:19:42Z drmeister: But the ECL Common Lisp code invokes the compiler at start-up time.  They have a fast compiler, Clasp has a slow one.  It hurts Clasp a lot
2015-09-19T06:19:48Z beach: So, in my opinion, you have a choice.  Either spend a lot of time and energy trying to make compilation at start-up time faster, or you can eliminate the need for compilation at start-up time.
2015-09-19T06:20:27Z drmeister: I'm trying to eliminate the need for compilation at start-up time.  They are compiling code, not data.
2015-09-19T06:20:47Z beach: I see absolutely no reason to compile code at start-up time.
2015-09-19T06:25:42Z drmeister: This would compile code at start-up time wouldn't it?
2015-09-19T06:25:45Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/17bCKhiQ/
2015-09-19T06:26:22Z beach: Only if evaluated at start-up time.  But I see absolutely no reason for that form to be evaluated at start-up time.
2015-09-19T06:26:55Z drmeister: That form (EVAL '(PROGN ...)) is straight up in the ECL combin.lsp source file
2015-09-19T06:27:09Z beach: Yes, so?
2015-09-19T06:27:13Z drmeister: I don't understand why they do it that way.
2015-09-19T06:27:23Z beach: I have some idea.
2015-09-19T06:27:29Z drmeister: Why?
2015-09-19T06:28:13Z beach: DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION in several CLOS implementations adds methods to a generic function named FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION so probably they don't know how to add methods to generic functions until start-up time.
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2015-09-19T06:28:34Z beach: But I see absolutely no reason why you need to wait and add methods to generic functions at start-up time.
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2015-09-19T06:30:05Z beach: Basically, I think you are saying that ECL does a lot of work at start-up time, but it does it with a fast bytecode compiler which Clasp doesn't have.
2015-09-19T06:30:18Z drmeister: Yes, I think that's what's going on.
2015-09-19T06:30:25Z beach: But I see absolutely no reason for ECL to do work at start-up time either.
2015-09-19T06:30:54Z drmeister: How would you arrange things to eliminate this work at start-up time?
2015-09-19T06:31:01Z beach: So I won't be convinced of the necessity of doing things at start-up time by being told that ECL does it that way.
2015-09-19T06:31:25Z kami`: Good morning.
2015-09-19T06:31:34Z beach: drmeister: Do it when the system is booted and then save the state of the executing system to an executable file.
2015-09-19T06:31:41Z beach: Hello kami`.
2015-09-19T06:34:07Z drmeister: What about compiling the methods as functions and adding them to the generic function at startup time?
2015-09-19T06:37:40Z drmeister: I also don't understand why the compiler would be invoked - anything compilation done at startup should be done at compile time.
2015-09-19T06:40:01Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm not saying it has to be done this way because ECL does it this way.  I borrowed their code and inherited their way of doing things.  It's non-trivial to figure out how to rearrange things to avoid compilation at startup.
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2015-09-19T07:04:09Z pjb: phoe_krk: no. (type-of (and a b)) = `(or null ,(type-of b)) not (member t nil)!
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2015-09-19T07:50:14Z pjb: phoe_krk: on the other hand, it might be an error of re-implementing Cocoa. (not that GNUstep is not useful).  cf. the work of Alan Kay at VPRI.  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFGwvw1jHU_S1Sas5cYngDq16mk7O0H2a
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2015-09-19T07:56:59Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can play solitaire (or somethink like it) on Mezzano.
2015-09-19T07:57:02Z pjb: aeth: ^
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2015-09-19T08:05:03Z pjb: phoe_krk: clisp has the SCREEN (and KEYBOARD) package.
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2015-09-19T08:06:31Z pjb: minion: memo for yates: there's emacs-cl but it hasn't be updated for emacs-24, only emacs-23.  You'd be welcome to port it to emacs-24 (a lot of simplifications would be expected, with lexical-binding).
2015-09-19T08:06:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell yates when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-19T08:08:56Z pjb: minion: memo for yates: emacs has already several database access packages and database implementations.  For example, you can accessp postgres directly from emacs with pg.el (cf. eg. https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/psql.el )
2015-09-19T08:08:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell yates when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-19T08:10:31Z Shinmera: Ober: If you don't want the value just stick a NOT/NULL around it.
2015-09-19T08:11:21Z Ober: shimmer thanks, taking Edi's advice
2015-09-19T08:11:36Z Shinmera: Who's shimmer
2015-09-19T08:12:00Z beach: aeth: What Common Lisp implementation do you know of that is designed for kernels?
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2015-09-19T08:12:10Z beach: [whatever that means]
2015-09-19T08:12:28Z Shinmera: beach: I think he was thinking of Movitz.
2015-09-19T08:12:57Z beach: Shinmera: Hmm.  I don't think of Movitz that way, but hey.
2015-09-19T08:13:14Z Shinmera: I also don't think of a lot of things he said in that way either.
2015-09-19T08:13:29Z beach: I see, yes.
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2015-09-19T08:18:53Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: of course, you can switch to case-sensitive readtable: (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE) (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE))
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2015-09-19T08:24:47Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: there's an emacs package in the sources of hemlock.
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2015-09-19T08:37:07Z beach: Shinmera: At first, that discussion made me want to comment on it, but reading it a second time, I think I'll abstain.
2015-09-19T08:37:19Z Shinmera: Heh
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2015-09-19T08:41:12Z Heranort: hmmm... How can I use the macro to generate a sexp like "(defparameter a (make-something))" while "make-something" is a function?
2015-09-19T08:42:25Z beach: Heranort: "the macro"?  What macro do you want to use?
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2015-09-19T08:43:01Z beach: Heranort: I think you need to be more specific.  Perhaps others understood what you meant, but I can't say I did.
2015-09-19T08:43:12Z Heranort: well i just want to define a macro naming "generate (thing)"
2015-09-19T08:43:26Z Heranort: and when i call "(generate xxx)"
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2015-09-19T08:43:44Z Heranort: it turns to be "(defparameter xxx (make-something))"
2015-09-19T08:44:17Z beach: (defmacro generate (thing) `(defparameter ,thing (make-something)))
2015-09-19T08:45:00Z Heranort: thanks but, i wonder why there is not an unquote before the "(make-something)"?
2015-09-19T08:45:13Z Heranort: like ",(make-something)"
2015-09-19T08:45:14Z beach: Because you wanted it literally in there.
2015-09-19T08:45:30Z beach: If you unquote it, it will be evaluated.
2015-09-19T08:45:56Z Heranort: OK, i got it. thanks
2015-09-19T08:47:00Z Heranort: And i always have another question. Why could scheme code be compiled into a executable file while common lisp cannot?
2015-09-19T08:47:19Z beach: What makes you think it can not?
2015-09-19T08:47:47Z Heranort: someone told me that i can only dump the whole image
2015-09-19T08:48:21Z beach: Heranort: What is the difference between the two?
2015-09-19T08:48:37Z Heranort: the size, for the first part.
2015-09-19T08:48:50Z beach: Heranort: the Common Lisp standard does not specify how things like that are done, so it will depend on your implementation.
2015-09-19T08:50:00Z beach: Somehow, you need to have the run-time system in there when you execute your program.  If it is not in the executable, then it must be in some (possibly dynamically loaded) library.
2015-09-19T08:54:11Z Heranort: Well how could I use the sbcl to compile the code into an executable file but not to dump the whole sbcl image?
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2015-09-19T08:54:27Z beach: Heranort: What do you propose to exclude if you generate an executable that does not contain the entire system?
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2015-09-19T08:55:35Z beach: Like I said, some implementations may come in two parts: a library and the rest, but SBCL is not like that, or wasn't last time I looked.
2015-09-19T08:55:58Z beach: I don't know about other implementations.
2015-09-19T08:56:50Z Heranort: could you give some examples of implementations like that?
2015-09-19T08:57:28Z beach: I can't because I haven't investigated it.  That particular aspect is not important to me.  I never generate executable files.
2015-09-19T08:57:37Z Heranort: sometimes I need only the core of the language and i think it useless to cover the entire system.
2015-09-19T08:57:54Z beach: Heranort: Define "core of the language".
2015-09-19T08:58:43Z beach: Some implementations have a "tree shaker" that lets you exclude some things that you think are not needed.  Again, it is something that I haven't investigated.
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2015-09-19T08:58:58Z Heranort: the ability of evaluating sexps, some basic procedures like cons, car and cdr
2015-09-19T08:59:17Z Shinmera: "the ability of evaluating sexps" takes a lot of machinery.
2015-09-19T08:59:31Z beach: That includes basically everything.  In particular, the compiler.
2015-09-19T08:59:47Z beach: Heranort: There is not much left to exclude.
2015-09-19T08:59:57Z Heranort: yeah, i know indeed. and i feel strange how scheme could compile that into a small executable file.
2015-09-19T09:00:09Z mjanssen: there are some lisps which can create executables which only contain the used parts. LispWorks for example. I have no idea how good it is though.
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2015-09-19T09:00:28Z mjanssen: Heranort: are you working on some memory constrained environment?
2015-09-19T09:00:30Z Shinmera: Scheme is a much smaller language than CL.
2015-09-19T09:00:32Z beach: Heranort: Perhaps that particular Scheme implementation comes in two parts.
2015-09-19T09:01:03Z Heranort: no i'm not
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2015-09-19T09:02:17Z beach: Heranort: As far as I know, the definition of Scheme does not mention that kind of stuff either, so it must depend on the implementation.
2015-09-19T09:02:38Z Heranort: yeah. sure it is.
2015-09-19T09:02:59Z Heranort: i ask the problem because i want my programs to be run on my teacher's computer, who doesn't know about lisp.
2015-09-19T09:03:18Z Shinmera: So?
2015-09-19T09:03:22Z beach: Then you need to include the entire system.
2015-09-19T09:03:30Z Shinmera: Does your teacher have a 100mb hard drive or something
2015-09-19T09:03:38Z Heranort: it's impossible to ask him to install the cl implementation...
2015-09-19T09:03:45Z Heranort: ok, then i'll do that.
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2015-09-19T09:03:54Z beach: Then you must include the entire system in the executable that you give your teacher.
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2015-09-19T09:04:11Z Heranort: yeah. the only thing left to do.
2015-09-19T09:04:17Z Shinmera: Most implementations offer a way of generating a single executable that you can just launch like any other.
2015-09-19T09:04:38Z Shinmera: It's just going to be ~20-50mb big.
2015-09-19T09:04:47Z Heranort: huge enough XD
2015-09-19T09:05:01Z beach: Now how much money is that much disk space worth?
2015-09-19T09:05:14Z mjanssen: I just did a dump of sbcl with compression this gives an executable size of 10MB
2015-09-19T09:05:23Z mjanssen: that should be ok
2015-09-19T09:05:27Z Shinmera: beach: Much less than this conversation would've costed in salary.
2015-09-19T09:05:43Z beach: Shinmera: Way much less, yes.
2015-09-19T09:06:00Z Shinmera: mjanssen: 10Mb? Huh. I thought it was 17Mb minimum.
2015-09-19T09:06:25Z mjanssen: use (save-lisp-and-die "file" :compression t)
2015-09-19T09:06:34Z Shinmera: That's what I used before, yes.
2015-09-19T09:06:56Z mjanssen: hmm maybe I only dumped the core file and not a full exe
2015-09-19T09:07:07Z beach: Even if we say 100MB, and we say a 100GB disk costs 100 USD, that would be 10 cents.
2015-09-19T09:07:43Z Shinmera was just reminded that Matlab is a 6Gb (!!) installation file that expands to 8Gb.
2015-09-19T09:07:45Z beach: mjanssen: Don't you need :executable t as well?
2015-09-19T09:07:50Z Shinmera: No idea where the hell that space is spent, but hey.
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2015-09-19T09:08:58Z mjanssen: 12MB for full executable
2015-09-19T09:09:08Z Shinmera: On which platform?
2015-09-19T09:09:13Z mjanssen: Linux
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2015-09-19T09:09:52Z Shinmera: Huh, you're right. Maybe they improved it since I last looked at it.
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2015-09-19T09:23:35Z pjb: minion: memo for Heranort: to generate a small executable with sbcl, you would write a main.c in C, and link it with libecl.so, which is not much bigger than libc.so.
2015-09-19T09:23:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Heranort when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-09-19T09:41:51Z jackdaniel: good (late) morning
2015-09-19T09:42:01Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-09-19T09:55:49Z Ober: ok member+list of 99k entries is not on the fast end of average lookup time. what might be?
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2015-09-19T09:56:57Z Shinmera: Hash tables and btrees.
2015-09-19T09:56:57Z jackdaniel: (make-random-state t)
2015-09-19T09:57:07Z jackdaniel: derp, ignore ↑
2015-09-19T09:58:20Z PinealGlandOptic: hi! how to get physical address of symbol?
2015-09-19T09:58:23Z PinealGlandOptic: in CL
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2015-09-19T09:58:27Z Shinmera: What does that mean?
2015-09-19T09:58:27Z PinealGlandOptic: or Scheme
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2015-09-19T10:01:22Z jackdaniel: PinealGlandOptic: you can't - common lisp abstracts memory addresses for the users (for his own sake) - so there are no explicit pointer arithmetics
2015-09-19T10:02:01Z PinealGlandOptic: jackdaniel: but there is at least some debugging constructs?
2015-09-19T10:02:33Z Shinmera: The first question would be: Why do you want that information?
2015-09-19T10:02:40Z jackdaniel: PinealGlandOptic: in what sense? If you don't do any pointer arithmetics you don't have anything to debug
2015-09-19T10:03:02Z jackdaniel: if lisp implementation fails on that, then it's compiler/interpreter bug
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2015-09-19T10:49:31Z jackdaniel: witcher: the bug hunt
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2015-09-19T10:49:37Z jackdaniel: s/witcher/lisper/
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2015-09-19T11:43:21Z hao: who know the corman lisp well
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2015-09-19T11:44:18Z phadthai: the
2015-09-19T11:44:42Z phadthai: the Cormon Technologies should support it
2015-09-19T11:44:57Z phadthai: s/Cormon/Corman/
2015-09-19T11:45:41Z phadthai: ah hmm it would now be open source?  Interesting
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2015-09-19T11:46:02Z phadthai: I've not used it yet personally, others here might have
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2015-09-19T11:56:01Z clintm: Shinmera: You happen to be around?
2015-09-19T11:56:51Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-09-19T11:57:45Z clintm: For multi-paned applications in commonqt do you need to define them in their own package?  I'm getting some weird errors now that I've tried to add another window.
2015-09-19T11:58:13Z Shinmera: Uuuh, only if the classes conflict in name -- why?
2015-09-19T11:59:18Z clintm: Ok, then it must be me.  I'm getting 'common-lisp:class is unbound' when I try to show my new window.
2015-09-19T11:59:41Z Shinmera: I can't really tell you more without the code and stack trace.
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2015-09-19T12:00:04Z clintm: Yea, naw, that's cool.  I just wanted to make sure that it was me and not something I missed in the docs or something.
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2015-09-19T13:32:15Z pjb: PinealGlandOptic: what use would an address be, when the garbage collector can move objects in memory at any time?
2015-09-19T13:33:05Z pjb: PinealGlandOptic: also, concerning symbols, since they are interned, nothing says that there's only one address for a given symbol.
2015-09-19T13:33:15Z pjb: PinealGlandOptic: I guess you didn't think of that, did you?
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2015-09-19T14:06:45Z drmeister: Hello - at least half of Clasp's startup time is spent invoking the compiler.  Of the 14.5 seconds that it currently takes to startup Clasp 7.2 seconds are being spent running the compiler.
2015-09-19T14:06:50Z drmeister: This function is the worst offender:
2015-09-19T14:07:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9utFHyrb/
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2015-09-19T14:09:15Z drmeister: It's the (eval `(defmethod ,aux-name ,signature))    - why would it do this?
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2015-09-19T14:09:45Z drmeister: Rather than just (defmethod aux-name signature)
2015-09-19T14:09:49Z clintm: omg... I was right!  "eval? what's the point?"
2015-09-19T14:10:01Z drmeister: Hmm?
2015-09-19T14:10:27Z clintm: I like it when I can get something right in #lisp.  It's the small victories that really make my day.
2015-09-19T14:10:50Z Shinmera: drmeister: I'm not sure, my current suspicion is something about the interaction between the compile time environment and the eval-environment.
2015-09-19T14:11:01Z |3b|: drmeister: that would do something completely different, wouldn't it? (probably fail due to SIGNATURE being a symbol rather than a lambda list
2015-09-19T14:11:42Z |3b|: though it looks like something you should be able to do directly without involving EVAL, if this is internal
2015-09-19T14:11:45Z Shinmera: |3b|: Why would it fail. It's a function and you can pass it an arglist for the signature just fine.
2015-09-19T14:12:18Z |3b|: Shinmera: DEFMETHOD is a macro, it doesn't evaluate the first 2 arguments
2015-09-19T14:12:25Z Shinmera: I'm aware.
2015-09-19T14:12:27Z drmeister: DEFMETHOD is a macro ...
2015-09-19T14:12:36Z drmeister: Yeah
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2015-09-19T14:13:01Z Shinmera: |3b|: I still don't see it. The splicing happens before the eval is run.
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2015-09-19T14:13:26Z |3b|: Shinmera: i suspect we interpreted the suggested replacement code differently
2015-09-19T14:13:46Z Shinmera: |3b|: Oh! Sorry-- I didn't catch that you were talking about the replacement.
2015-09-19T14:13:46Z |3b| assumed that was intended to replace the EVAL form completely
2015-09-19T14:13:54Z Shinmera: I skipped that line entirely.
2015-09-19T14:13:57Z |3b|: or that :)
2015-09-19T14:14:44Z Shinmera 's brain is currently flowing out of his brain due to the monotonous task he's undergoing.
2015-09-19T14:14:46Z |3b|: drmeister: what calls that function?
2015-09-19T14:15:33Z drmeister: Good question, it is invoked directly from the toplevel:
2015-09-19T14:15:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gzaGjYnz/
2015-09-19T14:16:34Z drmeister: Thinking...
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2015-09-19T14:17:40Z |3b| guesses something to do with bootstrapping CLOS
2015-09-19T14:19:06Z |3b|: do you have an interpreter at that point? might see if it is faster
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2015-09-19T14:19:39Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-09-19T14:19:54Z drmeister: It's the final stage of bootstrapping clos.
2015-09-19T14:20:13Z drmeister: I'm going under the city, communications will be patchy.
2015-09-19T14:20:23Z drmeister: I have an interpreter.
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2015-09-19T14:23:59Z clintm: qtools has a readtable, and dbi has a readtable.  I want to query a db from inside an app.  At the moment my with-db macro switches the readtables and then (values <query result> (in-readtable :qtools)) but that just looks gross.  Surely there's a better way.
2015-09-19T14:24:46Z |3b|: why do you need to change readtables at runtime?
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2015-09-19T14:25:46Z clintm: Hrm... I assumed I did because it made slime all confused.  But that's a great question.
2015-09-19T14:27:12Z |3b|: possibly factoring out the DB code into a separate file and/or package would make it easier to keep track of?
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2015-09-19T14:27:53Z clintm: It is.  It's not in a separate package, though that's been tempting.
2015-09-19T14:28:09Z Shinmera: Readtable works on a per-file basis, so you don't even need a separate package.
2015-09-19T14:28:51Z Shinmera: Also, your macro won't even work to begin with because at the point the macro runs it's already too late.
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2015-09-19T14:30:12Z clintm: Isolating dbi interaction (what uses another readtable) should, in theory, solve the problem?
2015-09-19T14:30:32Z Shinmera: That, or removing the need to use the readtable in the first place.
2015-09-19T14:30:39Z Shinmera: *the need to switch the readtable
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2015-09-19T14:32:35Z clintm: Well, I thought I needed to because I was writing a query, evaled the function in slime to update it in the image, then went back and changed something in the qtools-using code and got an error about #_ not being defined (or something like that, the exact error escapes me).
2015-09-19T14:32:53Z clintm: I assumed I wasn't taking into account the readtable switch and it was my job to juggle them.
2015-09-19T14:33:13Z Shinmera: Usually libraries will give you a way to accomplish the same task without readtable muckery.
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2015-09-19T14:34:31Z clintm: I have a lot to learn about when and where a macro gets expanded, evaled, and whatever else.
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2015-09-19T14:35:12Z Shinmera: The reader gets a stream and produces forms. A macro takes forms and produces other forms. So, at the time the macro gets anything, changing the readtable is already too late.
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2015-09-19T14:35:59Z clintm: |3b|: for the record, you were, of course, right.  I had dbi code in the qtools-using file and vice versa.
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2015-09-19T14:37:57Z |3b|: i think slime associates readtables with packages somehow, and named-readtables interacts with that, so using separate packages and named-readtables might make things work without extra effort from you (assuming the use of the readtables is after the corresponding IN-PACKAGE)
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2015-09-19T14:38:48Z |3b| doesn't do much with readtables though, so don't really know the specifics
2015-09-19T14:38:58Z Shinmera: And I don't remember.
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2015-09-19T14:45:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a lispy wrapper for ncurses?
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2015-09-19T14:45:57Z |3b|: i think there is cl-charms or something like that, not sure how lispy it is
2015-09-19T14:47:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2015-09-19T14:54:46Z drmeister: It takes only three seconds to start bclasp if I use the interpreter.
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2015-09-19T14:55:44Z |3b|: drmeister: is that compared to the 14 before?
2015-09-19T14:56:01Z drmeister: Yes
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2015-09-19T14:58:04Z drmeister: cclasp requires 23.7 seconds
2015-09-19T14:58:08Z drmeister: Still too long
2015-09-19T15:00:29Z zacts: moin lispers
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2015-09-19T16:31:41Z ajf-: coming from an OOP background, how do I wrap my head around lisp?
2015-09-19T16:32:45Z warweasle: ajf-: C, C++?
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2015-09-19T16:33:01Z ajf-: actually javascript
2015-09-19T16:33:09Z ajf-: and the rest of the web faily
2015-09-19T16:33:11Z ajf-: *family
2015-09-19T16:33:26Z warweasle: ajf-: AHH. Great! JavaScript is an acceptable lisp.
2015-09-19T16:33:34Z Shinmera: Debatable.
2015-09-19T16:33:45Z Shinmera:  /very/ debatable.
2015-09-19T16:33:49Z warweasle: Shinmera: Well, it *should* help with his transition.
2015-09-19T16:33:50Z ajf-: how so? I find it hard to use lisp efficiently
2015-09-19T16:34:04Z ajf-: is everything supposed to be a function applied on a function applied on a.....
2015-09-19T16:34:05Z ajf-: ?
2015-09-19T16:34:20Z Shinmera: warweasle: I don't see why JS over any other language should especially help.
2015-09-19T16:34:25Z Shinmera: Anyway.
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2015-09-19T16:34:42Z ajf-: it's a new style of writing that I can't handle very well, looks totally alien
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2015-09-19T16:34:52Z Shinmera: Are you talking about Common Lisp, or some other lisp?
2015-09-19T16:34:57Z ajf-: Common Lisp
2015-09-19T16:35:04Z warweasle: ajf-: Think javascript, but move the parenthesis before the function name. And everything returns a value, even if statements. Think of Lisp if statements as the ? : construct in javascript.
2015-09-19T16:35:05Z ajf-: i'm actually using omn a musical notation language
2015-09-19T16:35:17Z Shinmera: No, don't think JavaScript at all.
2015-09-19T16:35:19Z ajf-: ah, so a lot of ? :
2015-09-19T16:35:30Z ajf-: well... loops, for example. what a weird notation
2015-09-19T16:35:36Z ajf-: can someone point me to beautiful lisp code
2015-09-19T16:35:38Z Shinmera: Thinking in terms of other languages is bound to land you in nothing but trouble.
2015-09-19T16:35:44Z ajf-: or maybe a style guide?
2015-09-19T16:35:54Z Shinmera: The usual recommendation is to read PCL
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2015-09-19T16:36:01Z Shinmera: minion: tell ajf- about PCL
2015-09-19T16:36:01Z minion: ajf-: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-09-19T16:36:12Z ajf-: nice thanks
2015-09-19T16:36:21Z ajf-: looks good minion
2015-09-19T16:36:23Z warweasle: ajf-: For example (if (lisp-is-cool) 'awesome 'bummer) Will return 'awesome. Which is a symbol, like a string without quotes.
2015-09-19T16:36:33Z Shinmera: warweasle: Please no
2015-09-19T16:36:39Z Shinmera: for the love of god don't compare symbols to strings
2015-09-19T16:37:09Z ajf-: yeah I can see that resembles Ruby
2015-09-19T16:37:09Z ajf-: no ?
2015-09-19T16:37:11Z warweasle: Shinmera: It works for a new comer and there's enough to wrap their head around.
2015-09-19T16:37:13Z ajf-: that :notation
2015-09-19T16:37:37Z Shinmera: warweasle: I don't support anything that'll require them to relearn things painfully later on, which is exactly what you're doing right now.
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2015-09-19T16:37:55Z ajf-: Im off to read PCL thanks
2015-09-19T16:37:59Z Shinmera: Have fun!
2015-09-19T16:38:08Z warweasle: ajf-: That's the best book.
2015-09-19T16:38:48Z warweasle: Shinmera: How is it so wrong?
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2015-09-19T16:39:22Z Shinmera: warweasle: Symbols and strings are different in type, nature, purpose, usage, equality, and pretty much everything one could possibly think of.
2015-09-19T16:39:28Z warweasle: Shinmera: YOu can switch between the two. And unless they are building macros (an advanced subject) it should work.
2015-09-19T16:40:00Z drmeister: If Clasp were to start running and then write it's heap and code out to a file and later I were to load that file as an executable, the memory addresses I would get the second time for the start of the heap and where the code would be would all be different - correct?
2015-09-19T16:40:06Z drmeister: I'd have to relocate all pointers.
2015-09-19T16:40:21Z warweasle: drmeister: Do you have Clasp working?
2015-09-19T16:40:32Z Shinmera: drmeister: Processes have a virtual address space
2015-09-19T16:40:40Z pjb: warweasle: you can also switch between structures and integers.
2015-09-19T16:40:56Z pjb: With about exactly the same result as switching between strings and symbols.
2015-09-19T16:41:01Z warweasle: pjb: True.
2015-09-19T16:41:06Z Shinmera: drmeister: Given that it seems logical that no, you would not have to relocate everything.
2015-09-19T16:41:08Z warweasle: I stand corrected.
2015-09-19T16:41:35Z Shinmera: drmeister: But, my understanding is limited, so.. better ask beach. I'm sure he knows (as would other people in here)
2015-09-19T16:43:11Z ggole: drmeister: yes, although if your code is PI then you wouldn't have to worry about code-code references
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2015-09-19T16:43:50Z warweasle got dinged for giving detailed and complex correct answers this week. So maybe I'm trying too hard to simplify. Like over-inflating a baloon.
2015-09-19T16:44:02Z drmeister: The code isn't position independent in the way you are thinking.   LLVM generates one-time-relocatable code.
2015-09-19T16:44:10Z drmeister: ggole: ^
2015-09-19T16:44:34Z drmeister: warweasle: Clasp is working - yes.  I'm putting out a major release soon.
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2015-09-19T16:49:08Z ggole: drmeister: then I suppose you can't just dump the executable part of the process: you need to retain the relocation info
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2015-09-19T16:49:33Z ggole: Presumably LLVM has facilities for that.
2015-09-19T16:50:20Z drmeister: ggole: Currently Clasp uses LLVM in the most straightforward manner.  It generates bitcode files and code that recreates the heap/data at startup.
2015-09-19T16:50:46Z drmeister: I'm thinking about what beach was suggesting last night - how to create a standalone executable with no startup overhead.
2015-09-19T16:51:27Z drmeister: I think I would play out the startup code and then write the heap that results from it to a file along with the relocatable code from all of the functions.
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2015-09-19T16:52:07Z drmeister: Then startup would relocate everything and jump to a START function and away it goes.
2015-09-19T16:52:16Z pjb: drmeister: (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (defparameter *files* (directory (merge-pathnames "*.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)))))
2015-09-19T16:52:43Z drmeister: pjb: Sorry - what is that for?
2015-09-19T16:53:10Z pjb: Why would you write the heap resulting of evaluating that?
2015-09-19T16:53:44Z pjb: What you need is to compile a function that will be called at load-time to perform the side effects.
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2015-09-19T16:54:12Z drmeister: pjb: I do that now.  I happen to do that for everything on the heap.
2015-09-19T16:54:15Z pjb: But it's basically just normal code.  The only difference is that it's code that's collected from all over the place.
2015-09-19T16:55:09Z drmeister: It would have to take load-time-value forms into account.
2015-09-19T16:55:15Z pjb: Yes.
2015-09-19T16:55:29Z drmeister: I'm not talking about doing something that doesn't follow CL semantics.
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2015-09-19T16:56:08Z drmeister: I'm talking about generating a standalone executable where only the essentials are evaluated at startup.
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2015-09-19T16:56:15Z ggole: drmeister: I'm not sure whether you are considering writing your own linker or not...
2015-09-19T16:56:30Z ggole: Try to avoid that. Relocating x86-64 code is rather messy.
2015-09-19T16:56:41Z pjb: drmeister: oh, for standalone executable the problem is entirely different. the :load-toplevel situation has occured long before!
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2015-09-19T16:57:28Z pjb: drmeister: what implementations do is to provide hooks (lists of functions) that get called at different times. When an image is saved, when an image is loaded, when the toplevel is about to run, when the executable is about to quit, etc.
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2015-09-19T16:59:31Z pjb: drmeister: for example, in ccl, we have: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BXZ
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2015-09-19T17:00:17Z drmeister: I see - yes I can do that.
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2015-09-19T17:01:00Z drmeister: Does it also have literal values compiled into a data segment of the file?
2015-09-19T17:01:53Z drmeister: If you compile-file  (defun foo () '(1 2 3 4 5 6))   how is that list represented in the executable?
2015-09-19T17:02:29Z pjb: Well, ccl is a kernel+image implementation.  So I guess it's just a serialization of the heap.
2015-09-19T17:03:23Z pjb: drmeister: IIRC, you may find implementation strategies for implementations using C or otherwise generating elf or similar in LiSP: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2015-09-19T17:03:42Z pjb: You could indeed store the data in the data segment.
2015-09-19T17:03:56Z drmeister: In Clasp, currently there is a function that builds the list by calling CONS, RPLACA and RPLACD at startup.  It calls C++ constructors to build everything at startup.
2015-09-19T17:04:05Z pjb: (that would put it out of reach of the garbage collect, which would be a nice side effect).
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2015-09-19T17:04:25Z ggole: drmeister: and this is what you are trying to get rid of?
2015-09-19T17:05:23Z drmeister: ggole: I wouldn't say "get rid of" - this is what I'd like to use to generate something that doesn't have the startup overhead.
2015-09-19T17:05:49Z pjb: Well, you cannot put all the data in a read-only data segment.  Quoted data, ok.  But arguably, (defun f () #.(vector 1 2 3)) doesn't return a literal vector, and not a immutable one.
2015-09-19T17:06:08Z drmeister: My current way could be platform neutral.
2015-09-19T17:06:52Z ggole: pjb: there's .data rather than .rodata
2015-09-19T17:06:55Z drmeister: It works and it's very compatible with the way LLVM works.   Anything else would require me to embed arrays of binary data in bitcode files to represent the serialized heap.
2015-09-19T17:07:11Z ggole: Which should be OK as long as the object is always reachable
2015-09-19T17:07:13Z pjb: ggole: right, but if you mutate it, you must include it in the rootset…
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2015-09-19T17:07:37Z ggole: True: I'm assuming that there is a write barrier that will include any location that isn't in the young generation
2015-09-19T17:07:51Z ggole: But of corse this might not be the case
2015-09-19T17:08:24Z drmeister: Holy hell - an XCode update just broke my compilation.  I need this like a hole in the head.
2015-09-19T17:08:37Z ggole: (You could scan everything in .data, but I think that kinda sucks.)
2015-09-19T17:09:17Z drmeister: __config:23:10: fatal error: 'unistd.h' file not found
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2015-09-19T17:11:49Z emaczen: Does Hemlock in any way have support for gnu emacs windows? I'm especially want to split windows etc...
2015-09-19T17:12:01Z emaczen: From what I can tell, it doesn't by default at least.
2015-09-19T17:12:47Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/hemlock-20150709-git/ -type f -exec grep -nHi split-window {} \;|wc -l --> 16
2015-09-19T17:12:51Z pjb: guess what the answer is?
2015-09-19T17:17:33Z emaczen: hah, where can I find more information about Hemlock in general? I'm using Hemlock on my mac that integrates with CCL.
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2015-09-19T17:20:39Z emaczen: I'm mainly interested in the gui system.
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2015-09-19T17:50:48Z beach: drmeister: Are you still here?
2015-09-19T17:51:29Z pjb: emaczen: the best source of information is the source code of hemlock in ccl itself.
2015-09-19T17:52:48Z pjb: emaczen: ccl-1.10-darwinx86/cocoa-ide/hemlock/*
2015-09-19T17:53:02Z emaczen: I guessed that it won't split windows like gnu emacs.
2015-09-19T17:53:16Z beach: drmeister: When you start a program on Unix and similar systems, the executable file basically gets mmap()ed to the process.  It will be a fixed address, so if your heap data is in the file, it will always get the same address.
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2015-09-19T17:53:55Z ggole: beach: it's a bit more involved now with PIC
2015-09-19T17:53:59Z emaczen: I'm trying to see if I can quickload hemlock but I'm getting the libfixposix.so error and I'm not sure where I can find the shared-object file.
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2015-09-19T17:55:31Z beach: ggole: How so?
2015-09-19T17:55:45Z PuercoPop: emaczen: that is a iolib dependency just google it
2015-09-19T17:55:53Z pjb: You can't count on the fixed address, there are options in the kernel to randomize it to avoid buffer overflow exploits.
2015-09-19T17:56:05Z ggole: beach: kernels will randomize the location of the heap and executable pages now
2015-09-19T17:56:28Z ggole: It's a "security" feature to make some kinds of exploits harder
2015-09-19T17:56:31Z ggole: (Sigh.)
2015-09-19T17:56:46Z beach: The important part is the DATA section.
2015-09-19T17:57:07Z pjb: Specially the data section. Since that's where most buffers are.
2015-09-19T17:57:11Z ggole: Everything gets randomized.
2015-09-19T17:57:19Z pjb: also the stack.
2015-09-19T17:57:44Z beach: Hmm.
2015-09-19T17:57:52Z pjb: Yes, things are getting more complex…
2015-09-19T17:57:56Z beach: So how does one create a data structure at compile time?
2015-09-19T17:58:05Z pjb: In a relative way.
2015-09-19T17:58:14Z pjb: Instead of using pointers, we use offsets.
2015-09-19T17:58:27Z Xof: or relocations
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2015-09-19T17:58:32Z pjb: or that.
2015-09-19T17:58:49Z beach: OK, then drmeister is just going to have to write things to a different file and mmap it to the same address always.
2015-09-19T17:59:35Z pjb: But given the randomization of the rest, it's improbable to have the any fixed same address available.
2015-09-19T17:59:41Z ggole: beach: you put it in .data, same as everything
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2015-09-19T17:59:57Z ggole: If you want to refer to part of it from within code or another data structure, you use relocations
2015-09-19T18:00:33Z beach: Amazing.
2015-09-19T18:02:55Z beach: I guess relocations would be a better solution than messing up all access patterns by using offsets.
2015-09-19T18:03:02Z Xof: at the moment, you can set your process' personality to disable address-space randomization, then exec yourself to regain determinism
2015-09-19T18:03:07Z Xof: probably at some point this will stop working
2015-09-19T18:03:26Z ggole: pjb: well, you can request a certain address with mmap
2015-09-19T18:03:28Z beach: What a mess.
2015-09-19T18:03:33Z ggole: Of course you are not guaranteed to get it.
2015-09-19T18:06:50Z beach: In order to create the relocations, one would have to know the structure of the heap.
2015-09-19T18:07:47Z beach: Which might be hard for drmeister because he is using a library that he has little control over.
2015-09-19T18:08:03Z beach: Xof: So how does SBCL implement SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE?
2015-09-19T18:08:23Z nyef: SBCL always maps its heap in a fixed location.
2015-09-19T18:08:32Z beach: So that might fail now.
2015-09-19T18:08:38Z emaczen: puercopop: I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to find.
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2015-09-19T18:09:19Z beach: nyef: If the randomized loading process happened to pick that address for (say) main(), then the mmap would fail.
2015-09-19T18:09:30Z nyef: There were some "relocatable heap" patches a while back, but they never got committed.
2015-09-19T18:10:13Z ggole: In practice randomized loading happens within certain ranges (and of course, meeting certain alignment constraints)
2015-09-19T18:10:21Z nyef: SBCL also has a bit of a song-and-dance to kill the address space randomization.
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2015-09-19T18:10:50Z beach: nyef: But if I understand Xof correctly, that trick might no longer work at some point in the future.
2015-09-19T18:11:15Z nyef: Also doesn't work on winapi, FWIW.
2015-09-19T18:16:14Z emaczen: PuercoPop: I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to find...
2015-09-19T18:16:17Z beach: So what is the plan for SBCL to work in the future?
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2015-09-19T18:18:04Z ggole: Kernel changes to ASLR shouldn't break existing binaries
2015-09-19T18:18:30Z nyef: I don't know, but it probably will involve resurrecting the heap-relocation code.
2015-09-19T18:18:32Z PuercoPop: emaczen: libfixposix
2015-09-19T18:18:49Z nyef: IIRC, it wasn't committed because it broke on cold-load?
2015-09-19T18:18:52Z beach: ggole: How can that be guaranteed?
2015-09-19T18:19:01Z Xof: nyef: I think it worked
2015-09-19T18:19:07Z ggole: It's what the kernel people promise, more or less.
2015-09-19T18:19:20Z Xof: I just think no-one got round to it.  We cunningly gave lichtblau commit access but even he never got round to it :-/
2015-09-19T18:19:41Z beach: ggole: So what if an existing binary counts on absolute addresses?
2015-09-19T18:19:48Z ggole: Existing programs should simply keep working, more or less forever (except in practice they are horribly broken by user space changes - but that isn't the kernel's business).
2015-09-19T18:20:20Z emaczen: PuercoPop: hah, I've cloned the git repo, and ran ./configure && make && make install but Lisp still can't find libfixposix.so
2015-09-19T18:20:21Z beach: ggole: I am lost.  Either they work or they are broken.
2015-09-19T18:20:26Z ggole: beach: then it runs without those protections
2015-09-19T18:20:29Z nyef: Xof: It worked after fixing things like the cold-load fixups being untagged pointers to heap space, and moving the x86 code fixup envectorization to genesis.
2015-09-19T18:20:41Z PuercoPop: emaczen: so google libfixposix and install it
2015-09-19T18:20:59Z beach: ggole: So are you saying there will always be a way to generate an executable that will be loaded at a fixed address?
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2015-09-19T18:21:30Z beach: ggole: Or will the kernel use some magic to see that the executable was created after a certain date?
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2015-09-19T18:21:56Z ggole: In theory, yes: although toolchains may stop supporting generation of legacy executable formats
2015-09-19T18:22:20Z ggole: Which has happened once already, I think (in the transition to ELF)
2015-09-19T18:23:51Z ggole: Er, yes to the former
2015-09-19T18:25:27Z beach: Also, drmeister might be interested in other platforms where it can't be turned off.
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2015-09-19T18:26:00Z beach: drmeister: Are you following this discussion?
2015-09-19T18:26:14Z beach: drmeister: It seems they complicated life for us since last time I looked.
2015-09-19T18:27:08Z ggole: Mmm. When I said "kernel" I should have specified "Linux": other platforms might throw you under the bus in terms of supporting legacy binaries
2015-09-19T18:27:28Z beach: drmeister: From what I now understand, the heap must be relocated, and that involves knowing every pointer in your system, including pointers used internally by MPS, etc.  This might be very difficult for you.
2015-09-19T18:28:41Z beach: ggole: Yes, I got it.  Thanks.
2015-09-19T18:28:43Z ggole: It might be worth asking the MPS people if they have suggestions about serialising heaps that are managed by MPS
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2015-09-19T18:28:56Z beach: Sure.
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2015-09-19T18:31:03Z beach: Time to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2015-09-19T18:32:00Z emaczen: PuercoPop: What do you mean by "install" it? I have libfixposix.so in /usr/local/lib and I tried adding this to my $LD_LIBRARY_PATH, but lisp still tells me it can't find it.
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2015-09-19T18:37:00Z PuercoPop: emaczen: ah ok you have already installed it but cffi does is unable to find it right? You are doing (ql:quickload :hemlock.base) ?
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2015-09-19T18:39:02Z emaczen: Yes, Lisp says: Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX).  Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so":  libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]
2015-09-19T18:40:13Z drmeister: Hi beach - I was talking with students.
2015-09-19T18:40:19Z drmeister: Reading...
2015-09-19T18:40:36Z jackdaniel: emaczen: you need to build and install libfixposix library (if you try to use iolib)
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2015-09-19T18:41:11Z PuercoPop: ok, this is what I would try as a quick fix, go to iolib's src code with M-. to ffi-functions-unix and find the define-foreign-library libfixposix and put the path to your .so tehre
2015-09-19T18:41:17Z PuercoPop: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dLoading.html
2015-09-19T18:42:02Z emaczen: How do I M-. there?
2015-09-19T18:42:24Z emaczen: I can't require iolib either
2015-09-19T18:42:35Z PuercoPop: emaczen: do iolib M-. and go to src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix
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2015-09-19T18:43:09Z PuercoPop: ok then do (ql:where-is-system :iolib)
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2015-09-19T18:45:39Z emaczen: PuercoPop: So I should replace the value associated with the :default keyword in the (eval-when ... (define-foreign-libary ...)) form ?
2015-09-19T18:46:37Z PuercoPop: yeah, or wrap it in an (:or)
2015-09-19T18:47:04Z PuercoPop: so (:or "/path/to/your/libfixposix" "libfixposix)
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2015-09-19T18:48:27Z drmeister: beach, ggole, nyef: Thank you - that was very illuminating.
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2015-09-19T18:49:03Z PuercoPop: btw, I'm sure there is a way to change the path where cffi looks for the libraries.
2015-09-19T18:49:03Z drmeister: With MPS I actually know everything about my heap that I need to know to do relocations.
2015-09-19T18:49:26Z emaczen: PuercoPop: Thanks for the help, I can finally quickload hemlock.base.
2015-09-19T18:50:01Z emaczen: Now, how do I start the hemlock editor?
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2015-09-19T18:51:14Z PuercoPop: emaczen: keep in mind that what I told you to do is a horrible hack just to get things running. Try reporting the issue on the gh tracker, I'm sure the author has a more general fix
2015-09-19T18:52:19Z drmeister: I would implement a relocatable heap and code.   I think I have everything that I need to do this from the bitcode file.  It has code to generate the heap and build a table of pointers for relocation and to generate relocatable code..
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2015-09-19T18:52:56Z drmeister: I wouldn't try to do it from a running executable - that would be harder.  Especially for the code.
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2015-09-19T18:53:59Z drmeister: When LLVM generates code you first get a relocatable version and then it gets relocated to it's final resting place in memory.   I can get the first relocatable version and write that out to a file.
2015-09-19T18:57:54Z drmeister: The heap is generated by a function that calls CONS, RPLACA, RPLACD, makeString, makeBignum, makeArray, makeHashTable etc functions.   I could keep track of the offsets of the pointers in these generated objects in a big relocation table and use it to relocate the heap wherever it needs to go.
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2015-09-19T19:05:09Z emaczen: Can anybody tell me how to start Hemlock? Everything I have tried fails.
2015-09-19T19:05:25Z emaczen: I've tried (ed), (hemlock:hemlock) etc...
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2015-09-19T19:17:09Z whiteline: https://github.com/Lifelovinglight/generic-data-structures/blob/master/quad-tree.cl this code now does what it should. as this is my first proper common lisp package, am i doing something horribly wrong?
2015-09-19T19:17:45Z whiteline: i can just use this as-is once i decide to tie it together with ASDF, right?
2015-09-19T19:17:56Z |3b| would say a global SAFETY 0 declamation is horribly wrong
2015-09-19T19:18:31Z whiteline: |3b|: so if i insist i should make it local to the inner loop functions at least?
2015-09-19T19:18:39Z |3b|: and global FTYPE declarations on your public API is wrong
2015-09-19T19:18:46Z whiteline: really?
2015-09-19T19:19:00Z whiteline: that's a surprising thingie. why?
2015-09-19T19:19:11Z |3b|: because it probably doesn't mean what you think it means
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2015-09-19T19:19:45Z whiteline: it's a promise to the compiler that it can reason about the functions as if it had those types
2015-09-19T19:19:47Z whiteline: right?
2015-09-19T19:20:04Z whiteline: as opposed to type-safety and type-checking
2015-09-19T19:20:17Z jackdaniel: safety = 0 might mean for example that your lisp implementation won't care/notice heap storage exhaustion
2015-09-19T19:20:58Z |3b| isn't worried about heap exhaustion, i'm worried about spending days debugging some trivial problem that safety 1 would have told me about immediately, like passing NIL to something that didn't expect it
2015-09-19T19:21:17Z jackdaniel: it was just an example
2015-09-19T19:21:20Z whiteline: |3b|: yeah, i had safety 2 debug 3 while debugging
2015-09-19T19:21:23Z jackdaniel: of "suprising" behavior
2015-09-19T19:21:32Z whiteline: but obv. i need to care about how the code is included
2015-09-19T19:21:35Z whiteline: too
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2015-09-19T19:24:51Z rme: The other thing is that (declaim ...) can (and does, in CCL) have load-time effects. So, if you load a file that contains (declaim (optimize (safety 0))), then that setting becomes the default.  It's better to wrap it in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) if that's what you mean.
2015-09-19T19:25:02Z pjb: emaczen: (require :cocoa)
2015-09-19T19:25:13Z pjb: emaczen: this is how you start hemlock in ccl.
2015-09-19T19:25:16Z whiteline: rme: that is what i mean yes
2015-09-19T19:25:18Z emaczen: pjb: I'mm trying on Linux now
2015-09-19T19:25:27Z pjb: ok.
2015-09-19T19:25:35Z emaczen: I quickloaded :hemlock.clx
2015-09-19T19:26:01Z |3b| fails to find where in the spec it says how FTYPE declarations are interpreted
2015-09-19T19:26:31Z |3b|: but it isn't just "as opposed to type safety", it is more likely "at the expense of type safety"
2015-09-19T19:26:34Z whiteline: |3b|: thing is, the data structure does in fact only operate on fixnums
2015-09-19T19:26:39Z whiteline: yes exactly
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2015-09-19T19:27:09Z |3b|: if the compiler knows something is that type, because you explicitly told it so, it will assume it is, and completely skip even explicit checks (because they obviously return true)
2015-09-19T19:27:22Z |3b|: it only operates on fixnums
2015-09-19T19:27:26Z whiteline: i understand the principle, you actually tell the compiler "at runtime, this function will be this type, period."
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2015-09-19T19:27:33Z whiteline: |3b|: yep
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2015-09-19T19:27:44Z |3b|: with type declarations saying it is a fixnum. it operates on everything else too
2015-09-19T19:27:55Z |3b|: just incorrectly, because it thinks they are fixnums
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2015-09-19T19:28:21Z whiteline: |3b|: so i should keep the outer functions unftyped but declare the parameters of the inner loops?
2015-09-19T19:28:31Z whiteline: *still declare
2015-09-19T19:28:55Z |3b| would say don't declare anything unless you measured performance differences, and then only in places where it has been verified
2015-09-19T19:29:01Z emaczen: Does Mac OSX run the X window system?
2015-09-19T19:29:20Z emaczen: I think I read somewhere that Hemlock works only on the X window system?
2015-09-19T19:30:21Z |3b|: whiteline: also, you shouldn't assume fixnums have some particular size
2015-09-19T19:30:37Z whiteline: |3b|: yeah, that part will be fixed
2015-09-19T19:30:48Z whiteline: since it'll run on x86 too obviously
2015-09-19T19:31:01Z whiteline: the lookup table that is
2015-09-19T19:32:21Z whiteline: |3b|: i've just written the code so that the inner loops are fully native code
2015-09-19T19:32:26Z whiteline: when disassembling
2015-09-19T19:32:36Z whiteline: i haven't timed the code
2015-09-19T19:32:41Z Ober: how can you coerce a string into an array character (128)?
2015-09-19T19:33:13Z |3b|: depends on why you want to do that
2015-09-19T19:33:31Z Ober: gethash
2015-09-19T19:33:31Z pjb: emaczen: Clozure ported hemlock to cocoa, that's why you use (require :cocoa) in ccl to launch hemlock on MacOSX.
2015-09-19T19:33:44Z pjb: emaczen: but otherwise, you can also run it in X11.app
2015-09-19T19:33:49Z Ober: pulling strings out of postmodern, shoving them into a hash, but the string version does not match
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2015-09-19T19:34:04Z |3b|: can you paste an actual error message somewhere?
2015-09-19T19:34:15Z Ober: nil
2015-09-19T19:34:51Z |3b|: since gethash doesn't care what type it is, so not sure what you are asking
2015-09-19T19:35:04Z Ober: sure let me do that. to be clear. thanks
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2015-09-19T19:38:48Z emaczen: pjb: So ccl hemlock does not split windows like gnu emacs? My guess was no... but I'm not that familiar with UNIX shell commands either..
2015-09-19T19:38:49Z ggole: Are you using an #'equal hashtable?
2015-09-19T19:39:18Z rme: emaczen: it doesn't split window, no
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2015-09-19T19:39:34Z emaczen: Does portable hemlock?
2015-09-19T19:39:42Z emaczen: or whatever hemlock I am quickloading?
2015-09-19T19:39:54Z rme: I don't know.
2015-09-19T19:40:29Z emaczen: Alright, I'll try to keep getting it to work.
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2015-09-19T19:43:03Z emaczen: I keep getting an Asynchronous name error when I try to run (ed) with CMUCL to try out Hemlock.
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2015-09-19T19:45:17Z Ober: |3b| https://gist.github.com/c9b456580976c2057a6e
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2015-09-19T19:46:21Z |3b|: yeah, you want an equal or equalp hash table for that, since you aren't always passing in the exact same string object as the key
2015-09-19T19:46:39Z Ober: ok
2015-09-19T19:47:01Z Ober: thought it was the type difference the two yielded. one being string and the other array char
2015-09-19T19:47:16Z Ober: so make-hash-table args. ok thanks
2015-09-19T19:47:16Z |3b|: a string is an array of (some subtype of) character
2015-09-19T19:48:05Z Ober: after 50 years of list processing, I had hoped member was O(1) with a list of 99k entries. :P
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2015-09-19T19:52:09Z pjb: Ober: after 50 years of list processing, there is still NO list abstract data type in lisp!
2015-09-19T19:52:21Z pjb: Ober: there are no parenthesis in lisp either, in case you didn't notice.
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2015-09-19T20:09:00Z DeadTrickster: so is it possible to have equal specializer or just use case/cond?
2015-09-19T20:10:13Z pjb: Mu.
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2015-09-19T20:10:34Z DeadTrickster: pjb, bacteriophage?
2015-09-19T20:10:43Z pjb: GEB
2015-09-19T20:10:54Z |3b| doesn't understand the question either
2015-09-19T20:11:08Z DeadTrickster: pjb, god?
2015-09-19T20:11:26Z pjb: The best book of the XX century.
2015-09-19T20:12:06Z |3b|: if you mean can you use EQUAL instead of EQL in defmethod, not without doing MOP stuff (no idea how possible/practical it is with MOP stuff though)
2015-09-19T20:12:35Z pjb: I really wonder what they are taught nowadays? Don't schools teach anything?
2015-09-19T20:12:51Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, exactly my questionnn, sorry I know it bad worded
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2015-09-19T20:13:07Z pjb: GEB = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach
2015-09-19T20:13:21Z |3b|: depending on what you are doing, a hash table full of functions/closures might be another option
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2015-09-19T20:13:47Z pjb: CASE doesn't work with EQUAL either, so…
2015-09-19T20:13:53Z |3b|: or just cond if it is a reasonably small static set of options
2015-09-19T20:14:03Z DeadTrickster: yeah but I have case-using macro
2015-09-19T20:14:26Z DeadTrickster: found it somewhere
2015-09-19T20:15:30Z DeadTrickster: I wonder why equal wasn't included in standard. I'm thinking about crazy optimizations but any way it just looks natural to me
2015-09-19T20:15:45Z pjb: because equal doens't identify objects.
2015-09-19T20:16:17Z pjb: There's such a thing called object identity.
2015-09-19T20:16:23Z pjb: What do they teach in schools nowadays???
2015-09-19T20:17:01Z |3b|: or you could use a hash table to map your EQUAL objects to a specific EQL object to use for dispatch (similar to INTERNing strings to get symbols)
2015-09-19T20:17:47Z pjb: you can also put the function directly in the hash-table.
2015-09-19T20:18:13Z DeadTrickster: I suppose that is exactly the way naive method dispatching would work
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2015-09-19T20:19:39Z DeadTrickster: pjb, why it is important to identify objects in this context?
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2015-09-19T20:20:55Z pjb: It's just that it's one of the fundamental principles of OOP.
2015-09-19T20:21:00Z pjb: Objects have an identity.
2015-09-19T20:21:15Z pjb: This is actually about the only thing that ALL the object system can agree on.
2015-09-19T20:21:56Z pjb: Any other fundamental principle of OOP (inheritance, encapsulation, polymorphism), is objected by one or more object oriented system.
2015-09-19T20:22:05Z pjb: But not that objects have identity.
2015-09-19T20:22:28Z malice: Hey guys. I'm trying to get cl-tcod working. However, I'm getting an error: The value 1 is not of type SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER. I searched in google and it looks like it's not specific to cl-tcod, so maybe there's some universal solution?
2015-09-19T20:22:39Z pjb: You can have object systems where objects don't have state (which is ridiculous), like in ocaml, but not without idenitty.
2015-09-19T20:22:47Z DeadTrickster: ok so equal specializer will conflict with OOP?
2015-09-19T20:22:47Z malice: Also, it looks like this link contains the very issue I'm having: https://bitbucket.org/eeeickythump/cl-tcod/issues/3/console-wait-for-keypress-fails
2015-09-19T20:22:58Z pjb: DeadTrickster: it would be an abuse of CLOS, yes.
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2015-09-19T20:23:14Z DeadTrickster: dunno just another dispatcher
2015-09-19T20:23:17Z malice: Any ideas?
2015-09-19T20:23:27Z pjb: But then, given that method combinations in CLOS are monads, you can do whatever you want.
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2015-09-19T20:23:52Z pjb: DeadTrickster: well, with the MOP, you can build new object systems. You don't have to use CLOS in CL.
2015-09-19T20:24:18Z pjb: DeadTrickster: so indeed, you can use the MOP to build an object system where you dispatch on equal.  Whatever that means.
2015-09-19T20:26:18Z DeadTrickster: pjb, so CLOS authors think equal specializer is no-no. good. but why??? I can't get the reasoning behind this decision. It is like they were half way there.
2015-09-19T20:26:27Z DeadTrickster: eq, eql, equal, equalp
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2015-09-19T20:26:56Z DeadTrickster: of course implementation can and will optimize eq/eql more than others but anyway
2015-09-19T20:27:13Z pjb: DeadTrickster: because an object encapsulates state.  If you dispatch on equal, then the same method will work on two different objects (and therefore two different states) as if was unique.
2015-09-19T20:27:34Z pjb: It is just an inconsistent notion, it's plain dumb and silly.
2015-09-19T20:27:41Z pjb: It is meaningless.
2015-09-19T20:27:46Z pjb: It's like red blue.
2015-09-19T20:27:52Z DeadTrickster: no
2015-09-19T20:28:07Z DeadTrickster: actually it's like blue form different manufactures
2015-09-19T20:28:13Z DeadTrickster: the same blue
2015-09-19T20:28:18Z pjb: Imagine what would occur if (equal 'red 'blue) and you did: (paint 'red) (paint 'blue) !
2015-09-19T20:28:40Z pjb: But that's the point it's not the same blue, since one is red!
2015-09-19T20:28:54Z pjb: They can be EQUAL, but if they're not the same, you can mutate one to be different!
2015-09-19T20:28:56Z DeadTrickster: it depends on comparison rules
2015-09-19T20:29:03Z pjb: Exactly.
2015-09-19T20:29:10Z DeadTrickster: and I control this
2015-09-19T20:29:11Z pjb: Identity doesn't depend on comparison rules.
2015-09-19T20:29:18Z pjb: Identity is intrinsic.
2015-09-19T20:29:19Z DeadTrickster: if I'm ok with red == blue than be it
2015-09-19T20:29:28Z pjb: So it's not OO.
2015-09-19T20:29:40Z DeadTrickster: so what
2015-09-19T20:29:46Z DeadTrickster: I'm not purist )
2015-09-19T20:29:48Z pjb: As I said, you can abuse the MOP to generate a system where you have that, but it is silly.
2015-09-19T20:30:00Z pjb: You would be better served by implementing your own mechanism.
2015-09-19T20:30:27Z DeadTrickster: also speaking of strings. in CLR for example all string are interned. so if I want to specialize on string than this will be always the same string
2015-09-19T20:31:23Z DeadTrickster: also "blue" == "blue" isn't it? especially if we forget about unicode :-)
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2015-09-19T20:32:21Z pjb: (let ((blue1 "blue") (blue2 (copy-seq blue1)))  (replace blue2 "brow")  (paint blue1) (paint blue2))
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2015-09-19T20:34:23Z DeadTrickster: let*
2015-09-19T20:34:30Z pjb: Yes.
2015-09-19T20:34:35Z DeadTrickster: (let* ((blue1 "blue") (blue2 (copy-seq blue1)))
2015-09-19T20:34:36Z DeadTrickster:            (replace blue2 "brow")
2015-09-19T20:34:36Z DeadTrickster:            (equal blue1 blue2))
2015-09-19T20:34:37Z DeadTrickster: nil
2015-09-19T20:34:42Z DeadTrickster: seems legit
2015-09-19T20:34:59Z DeadTrickster: exactly what I wanted )
2015-09-19T20:35:06Z pjb: Yes. but consider that methods can mutate the objects.
2015-09-19T20:35:48Z pjb: So you would actually have something like: (let* ((blue1 "blue") (blue2 (copy-seq blue1)))  (paint blue1) (paint blue2) (not (equal blue1 blue2)) #|why?!|#
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2015-09-19T20:36:43Z DeadTrickster: than use erlang )
2015-09-19T20:36:50Z DeadTrickster: or haskell
2015-09-19T20:37:32Z pjb: In any case it will be more complex to study the MOP and use it to implement this dispatching, than to write your own macro to generate your equal-dispatching functions.
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2015-09-19T20:38:28Z DeadTrickster: this is how it looks to me: you can specialize on class (type). ok. I view this comparison operators as type-definers so I want to specialize on type defined by [equal "my-string"]
2015-09-19T20:38:40Z pjb: Not on type.
2015-09-19T20:38:42Z DeadTrickster: like deftype
2015-09-19T20:38:45Z pjb: Not.
2015-09-19T20:39:01Z pjb: CLOS methods only dispatch on classes, not on types.
2015-09-19T20:39:12Z DeadTrickster: yep I know that
2015-09-19T20:39:22Z DeadTrickster: this class/type stuff very inconsistent
2015-09-19T20:39:35Z pjb: Not.
2015-09-19T20:39:39Z DeadTrickster: ok )
2015-09-19T20:39:40Z pjb: It's very precise.
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2015-09-19T20:41:35Z pjb: And again, if you had started writing (defmacro  you would have already finished implementing it…
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2015-09-19T20:47:19Z DeadTrickster: I found this: http://cliki.net/cl-cmp but links here are dead (
2015-09-19T20:49:15Z pjb: It wouldn't help you anyways.
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2015-09-19T20:52:54Z pjb: Why do you want to do that anyways?
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2015-09-19T21:00:23Z DeadTrickster: pjb, I just wanted to see how others implement this.
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2015-09-19T21:01:01Z pjb: Well, since it's so alien and inconsistent, I don't think it has even been implemented.
2015-09-19T21:01:38Z pjb: s/even/ever/
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2015-09-19T21:05:51Z pjb: Anyways, in a well reasonned OO program, calling a generic function is only a representation for sending a message to an object.  It's true that with multiple dispatch it's harder to say what message sending means. But most OO program don't use multiple dispatch (or only exceptionnally).  In a way, there are very few OO programs written in lisp.
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2015-09-19T21:06:26Z pjb: So the question is how to find a method for an object to handle a specific message.
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2015-09-19T21:07:30Z pjb: Basically, there are two ways: have objects in classes and one method per class for a given message, or have one method per object (as in prototype based OO, javascript, or EQL specializer).
2015-09-19T21:08:28Z pjb: Inventing random arbitrary ways to find methods such as because an object is EQUAL to another, or because an object is of some type, can be done, but it cannot lead to any consistent system.
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2015-09-19T21:16:31Z DeadTrickster: pjb, if generic method are all about message pppassing why bother with multiple dispatch? CL is multi paradigm language and parametric polymorphism isn't that hard
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2015-09-19T22:37:24Z bitwiggler: how do you set the print-level in slime to keep it from killing emacs?
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2015-09-19T23:04:21Z pjb: bitwiggler: I put this in ~/.swank.lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BY3
2015-09-19T23:04:33Z pjb: bitwiggler: the most important setting is *print-circle* t.
2015-09-19T23:05:08Z pjb: bitwiggler: actually, I have variants to pprint code, vs. printing data; these are only the defaults I use.
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2015-09-19T23:07:47Z pjb: DeadTrickster: well, the thing is that with CLOS, it's not the case that OO is about message sending.  This is what it was intended by Alan Kay when he elaborated Smalltalk.  In CLOS, methods are not attached to objects, but to generic functions, and it's the generic functions that do the dispatching of the call to methods according to the classes of all the mandatory arguments.
2015-09-19T23:08:20Z pjb: DeadTrickster: often, in simple lisp OO systems implementing message passing, we use a SEND function: (send object 'message argument…).
2015-09-19T23:08:55Z pjb: DeadTrickster: you could easily define such a simple OO system (it's something like 20 lines, much less than what we've discussed here so far), and add a EQUAL test in there…
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2015-09-19T23:12:47Z DeadTrickster: pjb, thank you, however clos generic function do dispatching not only based on classes. there is eql specializer which looks like guard or underpowered parametric polymorphism. Also why mixing to concepts then? 1. Dispatching on classes 2. Dispatching on identities
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2015-09-19T23:14:31Z DeadTrickster:  /to/two
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2015-09-19T23:35:07Z bitwiggler: just want to avoid emacs hangs
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2015-09-19T23:44:51Z pjb: DeadTrickster: I agree that EQL specializers feel like a hack.
2015-09-19T23:45:21Z pjb: DeadTrickster: also, they require weak references internally, but there's no standard API to weak references.
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2015-09-19T23:57:19Z emaczen: pjb: Do you use Hemlock or gnu emacs or which percentage of both do you use?
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2015-09-19T23:57:53Z DeadTrickster: pjb, not sure about weak references - symbols for example can not be collected anyway (unless uninterned of course). also there is no standard APIs for so many things sadly... But again what amazes me most - i can specialize on symbols, numbers, characters but not on strings... why? (yep we discussed this in term of CLOS and OOP but...) Also this CLHS wording: "denotes a parameter specializer which satisfies the type specifier (eql object)". why they st
2015-09-19T23:57:53Z DeadTrickster: opped here?  Why not to support other type specifiers? I have no idea
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2015-09-20T00:08:33Z kyfho: http://weblocks-framework.info/
2015-09-20T00:08:35Z kyfho: fail
2015-09-20T00:08:42Z kyfho: http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/  blank
2015-09-20T00:08:46Z kyfho: wheres weblocks?
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2015-09-20T01:08:43Z boogaloo: For the sake of introductory practice, I wrote two functions, range and riffle. (range 5) returns (1 2 3 4 5), (riffle (a b c d) x) returns (a x b x c x d). Now, why does (time (riffle (range 188) 'x)) tells me `0 bytes consed'?
2015-09-20T01:10:32Z Bike: probably it's below the threshhold of your implementation
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2015-09-20T01:10:37Z Bike: try doing it like a million times and taking the average
2015-09-20T01:11:20Z boogaloo: The least counter I got was 32678 bytes. I guess, everything below that will be discarded?
2015-09-20T01:11:27Z Bike: possibly.
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2015-09-20T02:21:41Z jfe: i apologize if this is off-topic, but i’d like to set up a web server running hunchentoot to serve a project i’m working on. i already pay for a domain, i just need server space and the ability to run CL on it. can anyone here direct to the shortest route to do this?
2015-09-20T02:21:50Z jfe: s/direct/direct me/
2015-09-20T02:23:21Z jfe: short of hosting myself, of course :)
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2015-09-20T02:27:47Z raphaelss: jfe: I'd use something like digitalocean, linode or vultr
2015-09-20T02:28:07Z nyef: I'd start with AWS S3, myself, but that sort of thing, yeah.
2015-09-20T02:28:40Z jfe: nyef: i thought AWS S3 couldn’t host dynamic sites?
2015-09-20T02:28:53Z raphaelss: and probably put nginx in front of hunchentoot
2015-09-20T02:29:59Z nyef: Ugh. Sorry. EC2, not S3.
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2015-09-20T02:30:22Z nyef: And yeah, use nginx or pound in front of hunchentoot, whatever you do, just in case.
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2015-09-20T02:51:19Z jfe: in seibel’s book, he mentions how nasa was able to debug a program from millions of miles away because they could get at a remote repl. is it possible to do this with sbcl?
2015-09-20T02:51:38Z jfe: i.e. can i use sbcl to attach to another instance of sbcl?
2015-09-20T02:51:55Z jfe: (either locally or remotely)
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2015-09-20T02:58:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: jfe: I don't know what seibel used, but swank and slime do that
2015-09-20T02:58:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: You start up a swank sever with sbcl and then some other program can connect to it and evaluate lisp forms
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2015-09-20T03:17:25Z axion: how can i create an alist value that is a list?
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2015-09-20T03:20:51Z Guthur: axion: as normal
2015-09-20T03:21:13Z Guthur: you can use acons for example
2015-09-20T03:21:58Z axion: i want the reader to read it as: ((a . 1) (b . (2 3))) instead of (.. (b 2 3))
2015-09-20T03:22:20Z Guthur: it wont look dotted like that after printing
2015-09-20T03:23:07Z Bike: (b . (2 3)) and (b 2 3) are different textual representations of the same list.
2015-09-20T03:23:07Z Guthur: it actually can read it like that
2015-09-20T03:23:28Z Guthur: (assoc :foo '((:foo . (1 2 3 4)))) => (:foo 1 2 3 4)
2015-09-20T03:23:33Z Guthur: just wont print like that
2015-09-20T03:23:42Z axion: hmm ok
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2015-09-20T03:46:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to filter a hashtable?
2015-09-20T03:50:08Z Guthur: fiddlerwoaroof: iterate over all the values ?
2015-09-20T03:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to generate a new hashtable with only certain keys
2015-09-20T03:50:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: but the same values
2015-09-20T03:50:50Z drmeister: maphash
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2015-09-20T03:51:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2015-09-20T04:25:02Z jfe: anyone know of a program that can generate pretty lisp documentation?
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2015-09-20T04:37:59Z clintm: jfe: I've never used it, but https://github.com/CommonDoc/codex looks promising.
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2015-09-20T04:48:22Z Guthur: nice to see a CL library adding more meta information to the github readme, such as build and coverage, even quicklisp dist
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2015-09-20T04:59:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-20T05:02:51Z Bahman: Morning there beach!
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2015-09-20T05:06:32Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-09-20T05:07:10Z beach: Hi drmeister.  Sorry I misled you with old information.
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2015-09-20T05:08:23Z drmeister: No, no - that was fine - it was very illuminating.   I decided to take your advice and meet in the middle.   I'll write code to generate and serialize a relocatable heap and relocatable code.
2015-09-20T05:09:24Z beach: Yeah, that might be the best solution, given your situation.
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2015-09-20T05:11:34Z drmeister: I was doing timing all day.
2015-09-20T05:11:48Z drmeister: DEFCLASS is expensive to run at startup.
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2015-09-20T05:12:58Z drmeister: I think it will be hard to speed it up so the best way forward is to construct a heap and relocate it at startup.
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2015-09-20T05:13:18Z beach: As stassats (implicitly) pointed out, probably nobody thought about optimizing the performance of DEFCLASS since it is done relatively infrequently.
2015-09-20T05:13:22Z drmeister: Cleavir defines a lot of classes.
2015-09-20T05:14:17Z drmeister: And that's not a bad thing, it needs them I just have to make it faster.
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2015-09-20T05:18:06Z beach: drmeister: Serializing the heap means you won't do any DEFCLASS at start-up, right?
2015-09-20T05:18:17Z drmeister: Right.
2015-09-20T05:18:29Z drmeister: Currently I have a function that constructs a heap at startup.
2015-09-20T05:18:48Z drmeister: I'll play that after it's been compiled to generate a relocatable heap.
2015-09-20T05:19:05Z drmeister: Then I write that relocatable heap to the file, along with relocatable code.
2015-09-20T05:19:25Z beach: I think I understand.
2015-09-20T05:19:39Z drmeister: It will relocate the heap, run the load-time-value functions and then jump to the starting function.
2015-09-20T05:21:51Z drmeister: I haven't quite worked out the details.  I'll either generate a relocatable heap with a relocation table or I'll run the startup function, tell the GC to compact the heap and then generate a relocation table using the heap scanner that fixes pointers for the GC.
2015-09-20T05:21:58Z beach: Having been told about randomized address space, I am so disgusted with what they do (or need to do) in "modern" computing environments that I feel that much more motivated to work on LispOS.
2015-09-20T05:24:22Z H4ns: beach: i feel you.  address space randomization is downright insane
2015-09-20T05:24:50Z beach: Totally.
2015-09-20T05:25:39Z H4ns: the sad fact is that insanity is the primary operation mode in web-scale systems
2015-09-20T05:26:16Z beach: Yeah.  Maybe I'll just retire and take care of my lemon tree instead.
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2015-09-20T05:27:26Z H4ns: i'm so glad that my son found tanenbaum's "modern operating system" in the book store and decided that he needs to have and read it.  makes me think that not all is lost :)
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2015-09-20T05:27:56Z beach: How old is he?
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2015-09-20T05:28:09Z H4ns: 21
2015-09-20T05:28:17Z drmeister: But it's got equations:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization
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2015-09-20T05:29:06Z beach: H4ns: I don't have any children, so I have to count on you and the others who do.
2015-09-20T05:29:52Z H4ns: beach: i'm doing my best.  i guess my christmas gift will be peter kogge's book.
2015-09-20T05:30:31Z beach: The Architecture of Pipelined Computers?
2015-09-20T05:30:45Z H4ns: no, the architecture of symbolic computers
2015-09-20T05:31:46Z beach: Looks interesting.  I'll ask my wife to give it to me for christmas.
2015-09-20T05:32:06Z H4ns: it is really nice
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2015-09-20T07:14:55Z flip214: "The Architecture of Symbolic Computers" ... from €245, new from €461...
2015-09-20T07:15:55Z flip214: ouch.
2015-09-20T07:18:59Z clique: that book is for anyone with the money to pay for it :)
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2015-09-20T07:19:29Z clique: And it makes a great gift for that special someone.
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2015-09-20T07:33:51Z beach: I added a (sub)section named "Monolithic applications" to the list of problems with traditional operating systems on this page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
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2015-09-20T07:34:59Z beach: Later, I think I will add some paragraphs on the reason for address-space randomization in traditional systems.
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2015-09-20T07:50:06Z clintm: Before I do/try it, do any of you know of any projects combining chrome native client and ECL?  I think it would be a lot of fun.
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2015-09-20T08:07:01Z jackdaniel: clintm: check for agenau repository of ECL
2015-09-20T08:07:09Z jackdaniel: clintm: it contains patches for NaCL
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2015-09-20T08:07:38Z jackdaniel: clintm`: didn't try them myself yet
2015-09-20T08:08:12Z clintm: I'm a moving target, it would seem.
2015-09-20T08:08:20Z clintm: jackdaniel: thanks!  Looking now...
2015-09-20T08:08:53Z jackdaniel: clintm: if you succeed it would be great if you could write blog post how to compile and set up a thing
2015-09-20T08:09:01Z jackdaniel is afk
2015-09-20T08:09:33Z clintm: jackdaniel: My dream is a atom/electron-a like but with lisp instead of javascript.
2015-09-20T08:13:01Z jackdaniel: well, I dream of space travels but not sure if lisp could make me an astronaut ;-)
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2015-09-20T08:15:03Z White_Flame: beach:  In the "Single memory abstraction" area, you propose sophisticated undo facilities to deal with the persistence.  Having built such systems, I would actually promote an editing/staging vs commit  separation of working data, as opposed to a single mutable state which is directly edited
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2015-09-20T08:16:22Z White_Flame: many, if not most, edits are exploratory, unessential, or even just partially implemented, currently nonsensical constructs to the machine
2015-09-20T08:16:35Z White_Flame: once we reach a stage where the edits are worth keeping, they're committed
2015-09-20T08:16:54Z White_Flame: although the editing state still persists, it is held separate from the committed version
2015-09-20T08:17:15Z White_Flame: of course, file-based version control systems showcase this workflow
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2015-09-20T08:19:16Z White_Flame: editing  & saving emacs buffers, vs actually compiling them into the current lisp image also uses this model
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2015-09-20T08:20:45Z Shinmera: Generally anything that offers a "save" button is in a "commit" model.
2015-09-20T08:21:03Z White_Flame: right, difference being is that many things are lost if you don't save
2015-09-20T08:21:43Z Shinmera: Yeah. I'm just saying that from a user perspective it's a model that's well familiar.
2015-09-20T08:22:02Z White_Flame: but even if you just do single mutable state with an undo buffer, it is difficult to find exactly where you want to undo to, especially if there are multiple independent edits.  Being able to save/tag/commit points in the undo stream makes the undo stream much more useful as well
2015-09-20T08:23:12Z Shinmera: It depends on what you're doing. F.e. in an art program I certainly wouldn't want the default behaviour to be to commit manually and rather have every change be a commit so I can undo step by step.
2015-09-20T08:23:49Z White_Flame: right, but if you're going to be doing a major change, it'd be really handy to checkpoint the point before doing such, to return to if that idea doesn't pan out
2015-09-20T08:23:57Z Shinmera: Definitely.
2015-09-20T08:24:09Z White_Flame: and that applies more fine-grained to any creative decision you're taking in editing
2015-09-20T08:24:48Z White_Flame: I've also built editor systems which are branching lists of undoable/redoable command pattern objects, such that it allows branching undo paths
2015-09-20T08:25:00Z White_Flame: that's a cool concept, but really, really hard to try to express in a UI
2015-09-20T08:25:04Z Shinmera: Yep.
2015-09-20T08:25:26Z Shinmera: It also depends on how much memory potential changes take up. In many situations it might not be well feasible due to those constraints.
2015-09-20T08:25:35Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks.  That's an interesting idea.
2015-09-20T08:27:05Z Shinmera: I'm mostly talking about the things I've experienced with Parasol here. The history is something I'm still not 100% certain on how to implement efficiently, but then I haven't thought about Parasol in a long time either.
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2015-09-20T08:27:15Z beach: White_Flame: I think it all has to do with the kind of operations that the undo facility (or whatever you call it) provides.  I agree that what Emacs proposes is not going to be sufficient.
2015-09-20T08:28:04Z White_Flame: I'm actually saying that emacs isn't that far off
2015-09-20T08:28:15Z White_Flame: Imagine if both your Lisp image state & emacs buffer states were transparently persistent
2015-09-20T08:28:29Z beach: Yes, I meant its undo facility.
2015-09-20T08:28:43Z White_Flame: ah, yeah, emacs undo facility confuses and scares me ;)
2015-09-20T08:28:58Z White_Flame: (yes, I know how it works, it's just terrible)
2015-09-20T08:29:12Z beach: It is bad, but it's the best we have. :)
2015-09-20T08:29:17Z Shinmera: There's plugins to add an undo tree and stuff.
2015-09-20T08:29:44Z Shinmera: I never bothered to try it out, but I can't imagine it being very friendly
2015-09-20T08:30:11Z White_Flame: I don't see it as being all that valuable for text, as it's so easy to copy/paste blocks for safe keeping and comparison
2015-09-20T08:30:23Z White_Flame: whereas graphical state, runtime state, etc editing might make a bit more sense
2015-09-20T08:30:36Z Shinmera: Right, but then you're running into the space problem I mentioned.
2015-09-20T08:30:50Z White_Flame: I tend not to consider memory footprint
2015-09-20T08:30:59Z White_Flame: (and then get bitted when 128GB doesn't suffice)
2015-09-20T08:31:03Z White_Flame: ..bitten
2015-09-20T08:31:35Z Shinmera: For Parasol I was thinking of some way to bundle history items far in the past together and potentially offload them to disk if necessary.
2015-09-20T08:31:53Z Shinmera: That should allow a rather large history if done right.
2015-09-20T08:32:07Z White_Flame: sure, it's just harder if your undo items are lambdas, which I tend to reach for
2015-09-20T08:32:25Z Shinmera: Ah, right. That's not a case for Parasol.
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2015-09-20T08:37:23Z White_Flame: a good point to bundle off undo history would be every time you save
2015-09-20T08:37:34Z White_Flame: keep the last N saves in memory
2015-09-20T08:37:50Z White_Flame: (the last N saves worth of undo history, that is)
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2015-09-20T08:47:53Z beach: White_Flame: "in memory"?  Where  else would it be?
2015-09-20T08:48:14Z White_Flame: serializing undo history to disk
2015-09-20T08:48:31Z beach: I see.  To me there is no distinction.
2015-09-20T08:48:40Z Shinmera: There is on current systems.
2015-09-20T08:48:42Z White_Flame: right, this is still in current OSes :)
2015-09-20T08:48:44Z beach: But maybe you are talking applications on current systems.
2015-09-20T08:48:53Z White_Flame: parasol in particular
2015-09-20T08:48:54Z beach: Got it.
2015-09-20T08:49:39Z beach: I am expecting lunch guests, so I am not very concentrated reading the scrollbacks.
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2015-09-20T09:20:37Z ASau: akkad: <akkad> G -> Y
2015-09-20T09:20:37Z ASau: akkad: <akkad> Yamma
2015-09-20T09:21:00Z ASau: akkad: could you tell what language had this phonetic change?
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2015-09-20T09:21:56Z ASau: akkad: it's kind of strange for back plosive + back vowel to convert to front vowel + back vowel...
2015-09-20T09:22:26Z Shinmera: How is this Lisp related?
2015-09-20T09:22:38Z ASau: It happened on #lisp. :)
2015-09-20T09:22:46Z Shinmera: Not sufficient reason.
2015-09-20T09:22:49Z akkad: ASau modern greek
2015-09-20T09:22:52Z ASau shrugs.
2015-09-20T09:23:13Z akkad: oligo -> liyo
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2015-09-20T09:23:40Z ASau: Oh, it isn't initial "g"...
2015-09-20T09:24:06Z akkad: ti kanete
2015-09-20T09:25:01Z ASau: It must be "front vowel + G" -> "front vowel + Y" then.
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2015-09-20T09:48:47Z clintm: Shinmera: How do I express a constant in commonqt? ie. (#_setAlignment thing alignCenter)?  qapropos lists it as a method, the qt docs show it as a constant.
2015-09-20T09:49:13Z Shinmera: #_Class::Constant, if I remember correctly.
2015-09-20T09:49:21Z Shinmera: I forget though, I rely on Q+ nowadays.
2015-09-20T09:49:55Z Shinmera: *(#_Class::Constant), that is
2015-09-20T09:49:59Z clintm: I'm looking forward to using q+ more, but I feel like I should learn the underlying layer first.
2015-09-20T09:50:10Z Shinmera: There's really no reason to.
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2015-09-20T09:51:27Z Shinmera: In Q+ it's (q+:class.constant_value)
2015-09-20T09:52:37Z pjb: DeadTrickster: you can specialize on strings.
2015-09-20T09:53:03Z jfe: suppose i’m using emacs/slime and i’m editing a package that i then want to test in the slime repl. is there a quick way to restart the inferior lisp session with that file?
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2015-09-20T09:53:32Z Shinmera: Typing ,restart in the REPL will restart your lisp.
2015-09-20T09:53:39Z pjb: (defparameter *the-string* "hello") (defmethod p ((o (eql *the-string*))) "Bye!") (defmethod p (o) o)  (list (p *the-string*) (p "hello")) #| --> ("Bye!" "hello") |#
2015-09-20T09:53:50Z pjb: DeadTrickster: remember, objects have IDENTITY!
2015-09-20T09:54:17Z jfe: Shinmera: much easier than doing M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp. thanks.
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2015-09-20T09:55:09Z Shinmera: jfe: There's also ,change-package and a bunch of other commands. Check the tab completion.
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2015-09-20T09:57:21Z clintm: Shinmera: Thanks for the help, by the way.  I'll commit what I have and refactor for q+ :)
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2015-09-20T10:01:02Z Shinmera: clintm: Note that CommonQt's #_ results in essentially the same code as Q+' functions in the end. They're just two different ways of achieving the same.
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2015-09-20T10:01:48Z Shinmera: As in, Q+' functions don't use #_ internally, so there's no reason to learn both.
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2015-09-20T10:02:42Z pjb: axion: you can use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses '(a . (1 2 3))) #| (a  . (1  . (2  . (3  . ())))) --> (a 1 2 3) |#
2015-09-20T10:04:42Z clintm: (q+:class.constant) feels a ton more lispy than *(#_Class::Constant)
2015-09-20T10:04:53Z clintm: Which seems worth it.
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2015-09-20T10:05:07Z Shinmera: That's the reason I wrote it.
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2015-09-20T10:13:44Z DeadTrickster: pjb I can specialize on any eql object i don't think cl authors thought about identity they were just too lazy to develop this further :-)
2015-09-20T10:14:06Z Shinmera: Charming.
2015-09-20T10:14:55Z pjb: DeadTrickster: As I told you, they didn't have to think about it, because it is so consubstantial to OOP.
2015-09-20T10:15:38Z DeadTrickster: pjb, lisp is also functional isn't it? and parametric polymorphism is a standard thing here
2015-09-20T10:15:49Z pjb: DeadTrickster: since you've seen cl-cmp, you can understand that EQUAL is nothing special and you can define any other kind of equivalence relationship.
2015-09-20T10:16:31Z DeadTrickster: pjb, this is not about what I can and what I can not
2015-09-20T10:16:37Z DeadTrickster: this about language design
2015-09-20T10:16:38Z pjb: DeadTrickster: why wouldn't you define an equivalence for stringss such as odd indexed characters be the same, and even indexed characters case shall be inverted?
2015-09-20T10:16:51Z pjb: DeadTrickster: or an equivalence that a = (reverse b)?
2015-09-20T10:16:52Z DeadTrickster: and CL has its shortcomings
2015-09-20T10:17:16Z pjb: Yes, it only provides tools that remain within the bounds of sanity.
2015-09-20T10:17:29Z pjb: But that doesn't prevent to write your own crazy tools, if you can justify it.
2015-09-20T10:17:36Z pjb: This is what defmacro is for.
2015-09-20T10:19:56Z DeadTrickster: sanity of 80s
2015-09-20T10:20:15Z pjb: DeadTrickster: it's not gratuituous at all.  CL is specified so that efficient implementations are possible.  EQL specifiers is like a specific class for each object, and the superclasses form a finite and deterministic structure that can be dispatched on easily.
2015-09-20T10:20:49Z pjb: DeadTrickster: if you allow random types or equality, then you break this constraint, and this leads to inefficient code (eg. chains of COND EQUAL).
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2015-09-20T10:21:13Z pjb: DeadTrickster: sanity of 2015, where lisp programs can be compiled to code that run faster than equivalent C++ programs.
2015-09-20T10:21:31Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Performance
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2015-09-20T10:57:05Z DeadTrickster: pjb, this doesn't count since without handwritten type, optimize, debug declarations CL is slow as everyone else. Moreover not every implementation will use these declarations. So performance argument is not relevant. Especially considering how many  languages are relevant with relatively poor performance. Yes in theory it probably designed to help implementors, but I don't think it what influenced language most. More like they cherry-picked things from
2015-09-20T10:57:05Z DeadTrickster:  implementations and dialects of that time.
2015-09-20T10:59:37Z shka: what you were discussing?
2015-09-20T11:01:46Z DeadTrickster: shka, why equal specializer isn't there
2015-09-20T11:02:44Z DeadTrickster: and parametric polymorphism in general
2015-09-20T11:04:04Z shka: ah, i see
2015-09-20T11:04:20Z shka: to be honest
2015-09-20T11:04:24Z shka: i was wondering the same
2015-09-20T11:08:09Z DeadTrickster: yeah CL could be perfect mix of concepts e.g. full featured parametric polymorphism from functional world with dispatching on class/type support which connects perfectly to CLOS
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2015-09-20T11:12:16Z Guthur: here is a paper on defining custom specializers http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2008/paper.pdf
2015-09-20T11:12:55Z DeadTrickster: Guthur, are you familiar with cl-cmp? http://cliki.net/cl-cmp
2015-09-20T11:14:03Z DeadTrickster: I'm looking for working example but all links on cliki are dead
2015-09-20T11:14:08Z Guthur: the links are dead unfortunately
2015-09-20T11:15:47Z Guthur: maybe if the MOP idea had been taken further and specified more rigorously this would be a solved problem
2015-09-20T11:16:24Z Guthur: from my reading it's certainly the motivation behind Kiczales et al. MOP work
2015-09-20T11:17:26Z Guthur: providing the language user the tools move around within their given problem domain, moulding CLOS to their needs
2015-09-20T11:17:28Z pjb: DeadTrickster: there are C interpreters. Therefore you cannot use the argument that C programs can be compiled to executable running fast.
2015-09-20T11:17:33Z pjb: DeadTrickster: how does that sound logical?
2015-09-20T11:18:37Z DeadTrickster: pjb, because you started comparing LANGUAGES first :-) you can't compare languages without compiler and runtime, right?
2015-09-20T11:19:14Z pjb: I didn't compare languages. I mentionned that a lot of features in CLHS come from this forethinking about efficiency of implementations.
2015-09-20T11:19:56Z DeadTrickster: you stated that CL programs can be compiled to run faster than equivalent C++ programs
2015-09-20T11:20:25Z DeadTrickster: anyway this is not about performance - for performance use Intel Fortran
2015-09-20T11:21:42Z DeadTrickster: Guthur, do you have more paper like the one you linked?
2015-09-20T11:24:15Z DeadTrickster: pjb, this is about choice after all. If I know that eql specializer is faster and can be optimized but equal can't and therefore terribly slow
2015-09-20T11:24:27Z DeadTrickster: i will use it only when I want it badly
2015-09-20T11:24:57Z DeadTrickster: this is similar to hygienic macro discussions
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2015-09-20T11:32:01Z Guthur: DeadTrickster: Unfortunately not, Christopher Rhodes (one of the authors of that paper) had some blog articles on the topic
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2015-09-20T11:32:28Z Guthur: I only stumbled upon that because I was sure that the intention of MOP was to solve problems like this
2015-09-20T11:32:57Z Guthur: unfortunately it's just not all specified detailed, as that paper mentions
2015-09-20T11:34:11Z DeadTrickster: I think I can dive into this. Really interesting stuff
2015-09-20T11:34:31Z DeadTrickster: Also big change closer-mop can help
2015-09-20T11:34:34Z DeadTrickster: or not )
2015-09-20T11:34:46Z DeadTrickster: chance
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2015-09-20T11:36:10Z Guthur: DeadTrickster: http://research.gold.ac.uk/9924/
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2015-09-20T11:39:02Z DeadTrickster: Guthur, wow thanks!
2015-09-20T11:40:19Z DeadTrickster: the question is where all this code?
2015-09-20T11:40:20Z DeadTrickster: http://christophe.rhodes.io/git/specializable.git/
2015-09-20T11:40:29Z DeadTrickster: doesn't work as always )
2015-09-20T11:41:51Z clintm: I'm wondering if I'm going to have to pony up for one of the commercial lisps.  Increasing sbcl's stack size on windows actually makes it puke *faster*, which is odd.
2015-09-20T11:42:36Z clintm: "the windows port is fragile" - it would seem that I didn't heed that closely enough.
2015-09-20T11:42:52Z Shinmera: Try CCL first
2015-09-20T11:43:10Z clintm: it's downloading now :)
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2015-09-20T12:01:57Z clintm: Shinmera: it works once I removed qtools :(  http://paste.lisp.org/display/155470
2015-09-20T12:02:40Z Shinmera: Given that I have no idea what exactly you did I can't really tell you what's going on.
2015-09-20T12:03:20Z pjb: DeadTrickster: In any case, EQL specializer are equivalent to having a singleton class, and everybody knows, singleton classes are bad. :-)
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2015-09-20T12:06:04Z Shinmera: The errors imply you're using the wrong way of launching your gui though.
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2015-09-20T12:06:14Z clintm: Shinmera: well, I'm no expert, but it looks like QApplication::exec isn't being called on the main thread with qtools and without it, it works.
2015-09-20T12:06:31Z Shinmera: I don't know what "without it" means
2015-09-20T12:06:47Z clintm: without qtools
2015-09-20T12:06:49Z clintm: anyway
2015-09-20T12:06:55Z Shinmera: restating it isn't going to clarify it
2015-09-20T12:07:26Z clintm: without it.. the "it" was qtools and you said you didn't know what that meant.
2015-09-20T12:07:51Z Shinmera: I don't know what "without qtools" implies because I don't know what kind of fucking code you're running
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2015-09-20T12:09:17Z clintm: it's common lisp code :P
2015-09-20T12:09:18Z clintm: hehe
2015-09-20T12:09:35Z clintm: not very good code, I'll admin.
2015-09-20T12:09:38Z clintm: err, admit.
2015-09-20T12:12:12Z DeadTrickster: pjb, forget about oop come to functional side we have cookies!
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2015-09-20T13:08:36Z DeadTrickster: is there any option on sbcl to treat warnings as errors?
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2015-09-20T13:16:05Z shka: DeadTrickster: but you don't have O(1) hash tables!
2015-09-20T13:17:27Z DeadTrickster: shka, wat? =)
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2015-09-20T13:18:54Z p_l: Shinmera: I suspect he meant that when using qtools to run QApplication::exec it somehow ended up on wrong thread
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2015-09-20T13:19:08Z p_l: though, yeah, no code - no way to fix it
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2015-09-20T13:24:22Z Shinmera: p_l: It should be the other way around. When using the proper Qtools functions it explicitly sees to it that it gets run in the main thread. Without Qtools you don't get that.
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2015-09-20T14:01:56Z pjb: DeadTrickster: you can program using pattern matching.  All algorithms can be reduced to a set of recursive "functions" containing a single pattern matcher on arguments, selecting a single expression to evaluate.  This is "dispatching".  What I'm saying is that I fail to see the point of wanting to force integrate that into generic functions.  There are libraries to do pattern matching, your you can write your own trivial macro for
2015-09-20T14:01:56Z pjb: that.
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2015-09-20T14:08:16Z DeadTrickster: pjb, yes pattern matching is close. I think I will try to marry optima and defmethod and see. Also this is not about forcing something this is about choice. If it will ( be integrated you are free to not use it if
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2015-09-20T14:08:29Z DeadTrickster: argh
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2015-09-20T14:08:40Z DeadTrickster: you want to stay with oop
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2015-09-20T14:25:55Z sjl: b amara
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2015-09-20T14:25:57Z sjl: ugh
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2015-09-20T14:28:25Z mood: DeadTrickster: The main problem when integrating pattern matching with method dispatch is that the order in which methods are defined doesn't, and shouldn't, influence the order in which they are called. When using Optima or similar, the order in which you place your clauses does matter.
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2015-09-20T14:28:56Z DeadTrickster: mood, good point
2015-09-20T14:29:04Z mood: That's essentially the reason you can't really implement type-based dispatch. Types don't have a hierarchy
2015-09-20T14:31:04Z DeadTrickster: but you can define set of operations with inclusion for example like (int 1 3) is included in (int -1 5)
2015-09-20T14:31:15Z DeadTrickster: and dispatch on most specific type
2015-09-20T14:31:24Z DeadTrickster: it totally depends on rules
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2015-09-20T14:31:47Z mood: Yes, but is (int 1 3) or (int 3 5) more specific when the item you're dispatching on is 3?
2015-09-20T14:32:21Z mood: You'll have to define arbitrary rules that stop making sense very quickly
2015-09-20T14:32:31Z DeadTrickster: maybe
2015-09-20T14:32:36Z DeadTrickster: maybe not :-)
2015-09-20T14:32:41Z DeadTrickster: I hope not
2015-09-20T14:33:35Z mood: There has been previous work in this area, for example ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/2001/AITR-2001-006.pdf
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2015-09-20T14:36:00Z DeadTrickster: thanks for the link!
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2015-09-20T14:36:58Z DeadTrickster: also I would like to start with something simple - like my lovely equal specializer
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2015-09-20T14:37:33Z DeadTrickster: to start with something already solved by Haskell, Erlang etc
2015-09-20T14:37:51Z DeadTrickster: but ordering is a huge question
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2015-09-20T14:37:56Z mood: DeadTrickster: Since EQL is quite obviously more specific than EQUAL, good idea P:
2015-09-20T14:38:29Z DeadTrickster: mood, it started with equal after all
2015-09-20T14:38:41Z DeadTrickster: I wanted to dispatch on strings
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2015-09-20T14:59:20Z Heranort: ahh.. is there any method to prevent my slime from printing the "STYLE-WARNING"??
2015-09-20T14:59:21Z minion: Heranort, memo from pjb: to generate a small executable with sbcl, you would write a main.c in C, and link it with libecl.so, which is not much bigger than libc.so.
2015-09-20T14:59:56Z mood: Heranort: You could fix the issue it's complaining about?
2015-09-20T15:00:15Z Heranort: it says i was redefining some function
2015-09-20T15:00:29Z Heranort: and there's too many of them...
2015-09-20T15:00:40Z pjb: You could delete the package before reloading it.
2015-09-20T15:01:07Z Heranort: think i'm not using any package yet...
2015-09-20T15:01:07Z pjb: Put: (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions (or style-warning SB-EXT:COMPILER-NOTE)) (optimize (speed 0) (space 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) in ~/.sbclrc
2015-09-20T15:01:27Z Heranort: Ok, i'd try it :)
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2015-09-20T15:03:16Z Heranort: unfortunately, it doesn't work...
2015-09-20T15:03:40Z pjb: Even after having restarted?
2015-09-20T15:04:00Z Heranort: yeah. i restarted my slime and the problem continues.
2015-09-20T15:04:12Z pjb: restarted sbcl?
2015-09-20T15:04:25Z Heranort: STYLE-WARNING: redefining COMMON-LISP-USER::<some function> in DEFUN
2015-09-20T15:04:27Z Heranort: yeah.
2015-09-20T15:04:59Z pjb: Then the easiest is to delete the package and recreate it before reloading stuff.
2015-09-20T15:05:11Z pjb: Also, why are you defining stuff in the CL-USER package?
2015-09-20T15:05:17Z pjb: It would be better to use your own package.
2015-09-20T15:05:46Z Heranort: ah huh? i didn't even notice that i'm using the cl-user package
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2015-09-20T15:06:46Z Heranort: the function said tobe redifined is written by me. strange enough
2015-09-20T15:07:10Z mood: Heranort: Perhaps you have multiple definitions of a function with the same name?
2015-09-20T15:07:38Z pjb: Of course, if you redefine it, because you are reloading your file, or because there was already a definition coming from some other library or program put in this common CL-USER package.
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2015-09-20T15:08:01Z Heranort: there's not multiple definitions i guess.
2015-09-20T15:08:08Z pjb: This is why  you should not use the CL-USER package in your libraries and programs: because everybody can use it and collide with everybody else.
2015-09-20T15:08:43Z Heranort: but i think i'm not using the cl-user package. where is it anyway?
2015-09-20T15:08:57Z mood: The cl-user package is the package you start in by default
2015-09-20T15:09:05Z pjb: Type *package* RET
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2015-09-20T15:09:54Z Heranort: oh yeah, the "common-lisp-user"
2015-09-20T15:10:07Z pjb: No, the "COMMON-LISP-USER" package.
2015-09-20T15:10:28Z Heranort: yes. that is it. then how can i remove it?
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2015-09-20T15:11:09Z pjb: Make another package, go to it, remove all use of the CL-USER package (there shouldn't be a lot), delete the package, recreate it.
2015-09-20T15:11:15Z pjb: Alternatively, you can just clean it up.
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2015-09-20T15:11:51Z Heranort: if i start that by default, where can i cancel that?
2015-09-20T15:12:04Z pjb: Heranort: http://paste.lisp.org/+3BYZ
2015-09-20T15:12:14Z pjb: cancel what?
2015-09-20T15:12:54Z pjb: Some implementations may prevent the deletion of the CL-USER package since it's a standard package.
2015-09-20T15:13:39Z Heranort: I don't know about the CL-USER package anyway....
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2015-09-20T15:14:15Z pjb: Heranort: have you defined your own package? Have you a in-package form in all your source files?
2015-09-20T15:14:37Z Heranort: no, not at all. i'm not using any packages except CL-USER
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2015-09-20T15:14:59Z pjb: How many times do we have to repeat it!?!?  DO NOT USE THE CL-USER PACKAGE! USE YOUR OWN PACKAGES!
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2015-09-20T15:15:51Z pjb: You can use (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.INTERACTIVE.INTERACTIVE:MKUPACK) to make your own "throwable" user packages.
2015-09-20T15:16:03Z Heranort: Ah. I said that because i even didn't know i am using that CL-USER package.
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2015-09-20T15:16:38Z Heranort: I thought i was not using any package
2015-09-20T15:16:50Z sjl: Heranort: by "use" pjb means "don't write all of your code and put it in cl-user" and not "don't (:use "cl-user")
2015-09-20T15:17:18Z sjl: to clarify, since "use" has multiple meanings here
2015-09-20T15:17:47Z Heranort: OH! I got what you mean.
2015-09-20T15:19:08Z pjb: Heranort: the thing is that if you don't define your own package and have a in-package form in each source files, then your files will be loaded in the current package, which can be any package.  Often it'll be cl-user.
2015-09-20T15:19:49Z sjl: yes, if you're coming from other languages like Python or Clojure you might be expecting that creating a path or file named "foo" automatically creates a package -- lisp doesn't do that
2015-09-20T15:19:58Z sjl: s/lisp/common \1/
2015-09-20T15:20:24Z Heranort: that is exactly the key! no wonder i was forced to use the CL-USER.
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2015-09-20T15:31:19Z Heranort: Hey I've got it! The slime kept warning "redefing" because I used DEFUN inside some function! (You know i used scheme before...)
2015-09-20T15:31:55Z Heranort: And there's no problem using the CL-USER package instead XD
2015-09-20T15:33:16Z pjb: You can also use fmakunbound before redefining.
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2015-09-20T15:35:09Z pjb: Heranort: try instead flet or labels.
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2015-09-20T15:38:28Z shka: Heranort: yeah, use flet to define local function
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2015-09-20T15:43:24Z Heranort: you surely need to study much enough before stepping into lisp...XD
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2015-09-20T15:45:03Z shka: not really
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2015-09-20T15:49:01Z mood: Are two NILs always EQL?
2015-09-20T15:50:00Z jackdaniel: mood: NIL is a symbol, so yes
2015-09-20T15:50:03Z jackdaniel: they are even EQ
2015-09-20T15:50:16Z Shinmera: Unless it's not CL:NIL.
2015-09-20T15:50:25Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-09-20T15:50:26Z mood: jackdaniel: D'oh, why didn't I think of that
2015-09-20T15:50:32Z mood: I was confused by ()
2015-09-20T15:51:31Z jackdaniel: I'm finding NIL being an empty list, symbol and falsehood not intuitive as well
2015-09-20T15:51:54Z Shinmera: Maybe not intuitive, but very useful.
2015-09-20T15:52:00Z jackdaniel: yes (again)
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2015-09-20T15:56:27Z Cthulhux`: NIL as the opposite of T makes most people scratch their heads first.
2015-09-20T15:56:34Z Cthulhux`: i guess there are reasons.
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2015-09-20T15:58:10Z jason_m: the hardest thing for me was adapting when i really wanted my variable name to be t!
2015-09-20T15:58:39Z jason_m: In financial modeling, t is the typical notation for the time period
2015-09-20T15:59:28Z shka: jason_m: so you do financial modeling?
2015-09-20T15:59:57Z jason_m: I'm in actuary in my day job
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2015-09-20T16:01:40Z jason_m: i program for fun when i have the time, my goal is to build up a little toolbox of utilities and programs
2015-09-20T16:02:03Z shka: oh, ok
2015-09-20T16:02:16Z shka: nice to see person who enjoys programming
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2015-09-20T16:07:17Z Cthulhux`: so am i
2015-09-20T16:07:21Z Cthulhux`: ;o)
2015-09-20T16:07:41Z Cthulhux`: i guess most people hanging around in programming IRC channels don't do that because they're paid for it
2015-09-20T16:07:59Z jackdaniel is very well paid for sitting on IRC ;D
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2015-09-20T16:08:14Z Cthulhux`: what?
2015-09-20T16:08:22Z Cthulhux`: does your boss need more employees? 0:-)
2015-09-20T16:08:42Z Cthulhux`: i can hang around on IRC very well!
2015-09-20T16:08:50Z shka: jackdaniel: what?
2015-09-20T16:09:02Z shka: i thought you started your own company
2015-09-20T16:09:58Z shka: oooh
2015-09-20T16:10:00Z shka: right
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2015-09-20T16:10:11Z shka is not to bright
2015-09-20T16:10:16Z jackdaniel: it was meant as a joke, but given my time is worth X$ / hour I pay myself for that as an employee not getting other profit on this time
2015-09-20T16:10:18Z shka: and has no sense of humor
2015-09-20T16:10:32Z jackdaniel: s/on/of/
2015-09-20T16:10:46Z jackdaniel: I'm terrible at making funny jokes, but I still enjoy it!
2015-09-20T16:12:06Z shka: well, it wasn't that bad
2015-09-20T16:13:08Z shka: man, programming in common lisp feels good
2015-09-20T16:13:18Z shka: i actually forgot how good it feels
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2015-09-20T18:44:48Z alecigne: Hi everyone, I have installed Clozure Common Lisp on a Raspberry Pi along with Emacs, SLIME and Quicklisp in order to study the book "Lisp For The Web". When I eval (ql:quickload "parenscript") I meet this error: Undefined function CCL::RDTAB.ALIST called with arguments (#<error printing CONS #x14D28955>. I have no idea what to do... Could anyone orient me in the right direction? Thanks
2015-09-20T18:47:59Z Bike: Did you get newest CCL and quicklisp?
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2015-09-20T18:49:15Z Bike: actually, it might be some issue with named-readtables.
2015-09-20T18:49:17Z alecigne: I am sure about Quicklisp; for CCL, I did a "svn update" and recompiled everything twice
2015-09-20T18:49:27Z mood: It seems a bug in named-readtables with new CCL was fixed after the last QL update
2015-09-20T18:49:38Z mood: Try cloning https://github.com/melisgl/named-readtables to your local-projects
2015-09-20T18:50:29Z alecigne: I just need to clone it in local-projects and reload my Lisp environment?
2015-09-20T18:50:34Z mood: yes
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2015-09-20T18:50:50Z alecigne: Ok thank you, let's try this :)
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2015-09-20T18:53:04Z alecigne: mood: thank you very much, that fixed my problem!
2015-09-20T18:53:33Z mood: np.
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2015-09-20T18:56:52Z axion: alecigne: you may also enjoy https://leanpub.com/lispwebtales
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2015-09-20T18:57:06Z axion: it's free
2015-09-20T18:59:10Z alecigne: axion: Thank you, I will have a good look at it, it seems interesting
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2015-09-20T19:35:24Z aeth: So apparently find-if is extremely, extremely fast and if I can replace iteration with it, I should. I guess that's because find-if is equivalent to e.g. iteration with a break in it at the first result, so if the result isn't near the end it saves a lot of time.
2015-09-20T19:35:57Z aeth: Are there any other functions that compose nicely with map and/or reduce?
2015-09-20T19:36:37Z easye: aeth: Almost all of them.
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2015-09-20T19:37:46Z aeth: well yes, but what I mean is find-if is kind of reducish
2015-09-20T19:38:09Z aeth: A sequence operation.
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2015-09-20T19:40:06Z easye: A lot of the CL types are based on sequences.
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2015-09-20T20:26:12Z Bike: you can define almost every operation on sequences as a reduction or a map.
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2015-09-20T20:27:20Z Bike: anamorphisms and catamorphisms, see? nyaa.
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2015-09-20T20:38:57Z kristof: ana . cata = hylo
2015-09-20T20:39:09Z kristof: Bike: Are you sure you're in the right channel? :)
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2015-09-20T20:39:25Z Bike: #lisp, no?
2015-09-20T20:40:07Z kristof: Bike: You are wrong, anyway
2015-09-20T20:40:19Z kristof: Bike: 1) anamorphisms are unfolds, not maps.
2015-09-20T20:40:36Z Bike: math is math, and if anything i'd say bananas and barbed wire works better for lisp than the purity.
2015-09-20T20:40:59Z kristof: Bike: 2) Anamorphisms and catamorphisms can only rely on the underlying Functor Algebra and Coalgebra
2015-09-20T20:41:23Z Bike: who doesn't rely on algebra? i love algebra.
2015-09-20T20:41:28Z kristof: :P
2015-09-20T20:42:05Z Bike: of course, as you say i conflated hylo and ana in my head, because unfolding is just so strange to lil ol me.
2015-09-20T20:42:07Z kristof: To be honest I don't think the recursion scheme zoo is useful
2015-09-20T20:42:23Z kristof: there are usually quite clearer ways to talk about things
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2015-09-20T20:42:56Z Bike: not usually, but i think it's true that many things are reductions (or catamorphisms, if i need to impress a PhD who hasn't yet realized how foolish I really am)
2015-09-20T20:43:18Z kristof: Yeah, I agree with that statement. :)
2015-09-20T20:43:27Z kristof: The "many things are reductions" statement, not the foolish one
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2015-09-20T20:44:22Z Bike: i suppose find-if is just a pretty simple reduce along with a control flow issue that would be slightly annoying to reason about but oh so convenient.
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2015-09-20T22:00:22Z otwieracz: 1st
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2015-09-20T22:23:21Z goglosh: what would you guys think of someone that programs using macros instead of functions all the time?
2015-09-20T22:23:46Z goglosh: tyring to emulate lazyness?
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2015-09-20T22:24:49Z _death: for small stuff it's ok
2015-09-20T22:25:32Z _death: like http://paste.lisp.org/display/145907
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2015-09-20T22:27:21Z goglosh: > I don't recommend using this code
2015-09-20T22:27:22Z goglosh: lol
2015-09-20T22:27:32Z goglosh: looks clean enough tho
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2015-09-20T22:52:26Z attila_lendvai: if someone is using macros for more than a thin layer of syntactic sugar, or maybe some specific optimizations, then they probably don't understand lisp fully
2015-09-20T22:53:20Z attila_lendvai: I even expand my with-foo macros into a call-with-foo defun, so that e.g. it can be redefined. and the macro itself is just a thin syntactic sugar that calls this function.
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2015-09-20T23:21:17Z ralt: hi
2015-09-20T23:21:24Z ralt: is there anything to use unix domain sockets with CL?
2015-09-20T23:21:37Z ralt: can't see anything about it in usocket, except an old ML thread that wasn't followed up
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2015-09-20T23:23:48Z attila_lendvai: ralt: iolib maybe?
2015-09-20T23:24:00Z ralt: attila_lendvai: looking
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2015-09-20T23:24:55Z ralt: attila_lendvai: yep, it has support for it
2015-09-20T23:25:01Z ralt: attila_lendvai: thanks.
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2015-09-20T23:29:03Z attila_lendvai notes that 436 people have read 3 messages instead of one. well, 4 including this... argh! :)
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2015-09-20T23:47:34Z pjb: ralt: unix domain sockets are named in the file system, so theorically, you can get them with OPEN.  HOWEVER, some implementations try to perform file operations on non-file file descriptors. (eg. At least one implementation has a problem with openining /proc/cpuinfo; it may have the same difficulty with sockets).
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2015-09-20T23:49:33Z ralt: pjb: hm, ok
2015-09-20T23:49:52Z ralt: pjb: coming from C, using fopen() on the sockets sounds weird, but I'll give it a try nonetheless
2015-09-20T23:51:08Z pjb: ralt: otherwise, there are implementations that have implementation specific primitives to build lisp streams from file descriptors, so you can create the socket file descriptor with POSIX primitives, and convert it to a CL stream.
2015-09-20T23:51:14Z pjb: But it's implementation dependant.
2015-09-20T23:52:15Z ralt: hm, interesting
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2015-09-20T23:57:00Z drmeister: Hi lispers
2015-09-20T23:57:12Z drmeister: I have an implementation/optimization question.
2015-09-20T23:57:56Z drmeister: In Clasp I've wrapped the va_list structure in a template class that lets me pass a va_list as a Common Lisp object.
2015-09-20T23:58:20Z drmeister: I'm thinking of adding a bit more code to it so that it behaves like a Common Lisp LIST
2015-09-20T23:59:26Z drmeister: Why?   Well, then it is very cheap to set up a va_list for function call arguments and I can return one of these wrapped va_list's as the value of the &REST argument.
2015-09-21T00:00:17Z drmeister: So, rather than CONSing the arguments into a list and binding that to the symbol for the &REST argument (as I do now) I would just return one of these objects.
2015-09-21T00:01:11Z drmeister: I figure as long as I implement CAR, CDR and return NIL when it reaches the end - then I'm good
2015-09-21T00:02:06Z drmeister: As I type this I realize there are issues.
2015-09-21T00:02:38Z drmeister: CAR is fine, but CDR is going to have to CONS a copy of the va_list object.
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2015-09-21T00:12:08Z pjb: drmeister: and (defun f (&rest r) r) (apply (function f) 1 2 3 '(4 5 6))
2015-09-21T00:12:48Z pjb: I don't think you can let va_list escape, since they're allocated on the stack.
2015-09-21T00:13:05Z drmeister: I can't - I agree
2015-09-21T00:13:39Z drmeister: I was thinking of only using them for C++ code lambda lists.
2015-09-21T00:14:13Z drmeister: Maybe even give it a new name - like &va-rest
2015-09-21T00:14:17Z pjb: If it's the equivalent of (defun f (&rest r) (declare (dynamic-extent r)) (g r)) then it should be ok.
2015-09-21T00:14:47Z drmeister: There you go - it's like that.
2015-09-21T00:16:16Z pjb: On the other hand, this complexifies CAR/CDR/CONSP, and therefore slows them down everywhere.  I'm not sure you'll gain anything doing that, compared to copying the va_lists into CL lists.  But perhaps you can analyse whether CAR/CDR/CONSP will be used on it, and copy to a CL list only in this case?
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2015-09-21T00:39:01Z PuercoPop: ralt: This seems to be what you are looking for
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2015-09-21T01:31:29Z aeth: Bike: reduce isn't quite equivalent to find-if, though, because reduce will just keep cycling through and doing nothing when it finds the answer, unlike find-if. afaik.
2015-09-21T01:31:39Z aeth: i.e. it will keep comparing x and y, and saying x met the condition, and returning x
2015-09-21T01:32:29Z warweasle: aeth: Is there an ANY function, like the EVERY?
2015-09-21T01:34:56Z Bike: (defun find-if (thing sequence) (reduce (lambda (a b) (declare (ignore a)) (when (eql b thing) (return-from find-if b)))) sequence))
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2015-09-21T01:36:17Z aeth: Bike: not quite, you need to do :initial-value nil, iirc, or else it doesn't run b on the first element.
2015-09-21T01:36:25Z Bike: whatever!
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2015-09-21T01:46:04Z aeth: It is kind of cheating though
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2015-09-21T01:46:14Z aeth: Because you're using return-from and an implicit block
2015-09-21T01:46:22Z aeth: It works, though
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2015-09-21T01:49:27Z Bike: that is the control flow stuff i mentioned.
2015-09-21T01:53:24Z |3b|: clhs some
2015-09-21T01:53:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2015-09-21T01:53:37Z White_Flame: drmeister: I believe SBCL performs that operation for &rest lists.  As long as you don't pass it around and operate on it locally, it can do a lot of list processing without ever manifesting a cons-based list
2015-09-21T01:53:44Z White_Flame: s/operation/optimization
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2015-09-21T01:54:20Z White_Flame: not that it's c varargs, but just keeps the values in stack slots instead of in cons cells
2015-09-21T01:56:24Z pjb: warweasle: why don't you read CLHS every?
2015-09-21T01:57:07Z pjb: warweasle: why don't you guess that if there's an ANY function at all like EVERY, it would be mentionned on CLHS every?
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2015-09-21T01:58:37Z aeth: warweasle: Every is just like a simple reduce. Just start a reduce with nil as the first element, and cons to it if the predicate is true.
2015-09-21T01:58:55Z aeth: (Of course implementations could possibly implement it more efficiently than that, idk.)
2015-09-21T01:59:06Z pjb: It stops looping on the first NIL.
2015-09-21T01:59:31Z aeth: oh, oops
2015-09-21T01:59:58Z aeth: So it doesn't even return anything except a boolean, easier
2015-09-21T02:00:22Z aeth: So you just start with t instead of nil as the first element, and if you get nil replace t with nil
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2015-09-21T02:03:17Z aeth: hmm, but side effects do complicate it, so I guess it does have to use return-from even if it's possible (but slower) that way.
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2015-09-21T02:20:45Z Zhivago: return-from should work for an early exit from reduce.
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2015-09-21T02:40:46Z drmeister: White_Flame: Thank you.
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2015-09-21T03:41:13Z aeth: Wow I was a bit distracted so I worded everything incorrectly. What I meant to say is that there's a way to do it without return-from, but it doesn't work if there are side effects, and it's slower, so I guess return-from is the way.
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2015-09-21T05:20:13Z loke: aeth: Or just use LOOP? That's why it's there.
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2015-09-21T05:42:47Z zacts: evening lispers
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2015-09-21T05:52:28Z flip214: zacts: it's 07:52 here, so rather good morning ;P
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2015-09-21T05:55:29Z whiteline: yep same here
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2015-09-21T05:58:57Z zacts: ah sorries! :-)
2015-09-21T05:59:18Z zacts: yeah, there was this other way of saying hi, that didn't rely on any particular timezone, yet still let you not just say hi
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2015-09-21T06:15:29Z drmeister: Just more evidence that the earth is a sphere - suck on that flat earthers!
2015-09-21T06:17:04Z Zhivago: Hmm. Timezones are not incompatible with a flat earth.
2015-09-21T06:17:23Z Zhivago: It just requires a mobile sun, presumably on a linear track.
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2015-09-21T06:19:50Z drmeister: You win... this round.
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2015-09-21T06:21:19Z Zhivago: Horizons are the trick, really.
2015-09-21T06:22:39Z otwieracz: drmeister: Hello!
2015-09-21T06:22:42Z otwieracz: drmeister: How's clasp"
2015-09-21T06:22:46Z otwieracz: s/"/?/
2015-09-21T06:23:29Z drmeister: Good.  Pushing out a new release soon.
2015-09-21T06:24:10Z drmeister: It's got immediate values, tagged pointers, a 250x faster compiler (thanks to beach), compacting garbage collection...
2015-09-21T06:24:43Z drmeister: Sorry, a compiler that generates 250x faster code (the best code it generates).
2015-09-21T06:24:47Z otwieracz: :)
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2015-09-21T06:25:23Z Zhivago: How many SBCLs is that?
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2015-09-21T06:31:20Z drmeister: For the test code (integer code) Clasp is 4x slower than SBCL
2015-09-21T06:33:46Z otwieracz: Hmm. That's awesome.
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2015-09-21T06:42:22Z yvm: Is it a way to implement C-like #define macros with SBCL?
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2015-09-21T06:47:26Z Bike: C-like in what sense?
2015-09-21T06:47:48Z Zhivago: Non-recursive?
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2015-09-21T06:53:20Z yvm: I want piece of code to be converted to some value associated with it at compile-time.
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2015-09-21T06:54:14Z flip214: yvm: write a macro that creates (COMPILE_
2015-09-21T06:54:21Z flip214: (LOAD-TIME-VALUE xxx) ?
2015-09-21T06:54:49Z flip214: otherwise, rely on the implementation to ensure constant folding in expressions.
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2015-09-21T06:57:39Z lieven: or perhaps #.(form) is what you're looking for
2015-09-21T06:59:04Z flip214: well, a macro might even just return a value like 17, too
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2015-09-21T07:00:00Z flip214: ie. (defmacro MACRO-TIME-VALUE (expr) (eval expr))  would be another possibility
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2015-09-21T07:02:17Z yvm: #. is just perfect. Thanks.
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2015-09-21T07:05:03Z Zhivago: There's also defconstant.
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2015-09-21T07:05:39Z yvm: defconstant doesn't work with define-alien-type.
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2015-09-21T07:25:54Z Bike: that's because define-alien-type is a macro that doesn't evaluate its arguments in that way. well, if #. works it's fine, i guess.
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2015-09-21T08:08:49Z whoami: where is a good resource for learning the core of the lisp language as written by mccarthy?
2015-09-21T08:09:04Z whoami: his paper is kind of difficult
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2015-09-21T08:14:30Z Zhivago: Have a look at a minimal implementation -- there are a couple around.
2015-09-21T08:14:40Z Zhivago: Search for 'seven primitives' or something like that.
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2015-09-21T08:25:18Z djh: whoami: I found http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html quite good as a translation of the mccarthy paper
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2015-09-21T09:17:57Z dim: how to intern a symbol given by the user so that it's possible to use t as a symbol name (using |t| internally I suppose)? how to pre-process the string given to intern to that effect?
2015-09-21T09:19:09Z Shinmera: Intern to a package that doesn't :use CL?
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2015-09-21T09:20:19Z |3b|: "t" is just fine as a symbol name already, so any processing depends on what you want to do with it
2015-09-21T09:20:43Z dim: it gets generated into CL code
2015-09-21T09:20:52Z dim: (let ((t (things ...))) ...)
2015-09-21T09:21:13Z dim: so that's not good, the intering into a package that doesn't use CL sounds just right to me, testing, thanks Shinmera
2015-09-21T09:21:17Z Shinmera: Just use a "my-users-symbols" package that doesn't ":use :cl".
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2015-09-21T09:21:39Z Shinmera: Make sure to (:use) though, as leaving the :use clause out entirely might still :use :cl on some impls.
2015-09-21T09:22:04Z dim: oh, ok, thx
2015-09-21T09:22:29Z Shinmera: clhs defpackage
2015-09-21T09:22:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-09-21T09:22:29Z dim: I'm trying to figure out how to integrate that in my code, I think only the place that generates the CL code should be impacted
2015-09-21T09:22:36Z Shinmera: "If :use is not supplied, it defaults to the same implementation-dependent value as the :use argument to make-package."
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2015-09-21T09:38:48Z dim: Shinmera: got interrupted, just goten back to it, works beautifully
2015-09-21T09:38:50Z dim: thanks
2015-09-21T09:40:28Z Shinmera: Sure thing.
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2015-09-21T09:53:31Z dim: now of course things get interesting
2015-09-21T09:54:21Z dim: because users may also provide CL code in the pgloader.transforms package, and that one (:use :cl), and user provided code now has to use both pgloader.transforms and pgloader.user-symbols
2015-09-21T09:54:41Z dim: maybe the user-code parser should be made smarter here
2015-09-21T09:55:18Z dim: or I should just (:use :pgloader.transforms) in pgloader.user-symbols
2015-09-21T09:55:43Z dim: *and* export the functions, and users should also export their functions then (it's using :: now so that step isn't needed)
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2015-09-21T09:57:41Z tsp1: What is the point of the wrapping the object in alexandria:switch in parenthesis?
2015-09-21T09:58:03Z tsp1: I realy don't understand.
2015-09-21T09:58:17Z tsp1: it's annoying
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2015-09-21T09:59:15Z H4ns: tsp1: the point is that there are keyword arguments in the definition of SWITCH
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2015-09-21T10:01:01Z tsp1: aha....
2015-09-21T10:01:24Z tsp1: think before ask, then ;)
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2015-09-21T10:02:50Z dim: how can I figure out if a symbol is known as a function's symbol?
2015-09-21T10:03:11Z dim: fboundp apparently
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2015-09-21T10:04:48Z whoami: Thank you djh
2015-09-21T10:05:19Z whoami: I actually found this a little while after I asked, and now it's cool that you've suggested it too, because this tells me that I really am reading the right stuff.
2015-09-21T10:05:55Z djh: no worries
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2015-09-21T10:07:12Z dim: ok the find-symbol+fboundp heuristic seems to work well
2015-09-21T10:07:29Z dim: it allows me to avoid breaking exising user code
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2015-09-21T10:17:44Z Vityok: hi all, what is the current recommended POSIX wrapper?
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2015-09-21T10:21:49Z tsp1: Vityok: did you read this: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/
2015-09-21T10:22:02Z tsp1: does not specify posix wrapper though
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2015-09-21T10:22:33Z tsp1: maybe you want UIOP?
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2015-09-21T10:27:14Z Vityok: tsp1: indeed, I read it before. BTW, I think it would be nice to merge that article into Cliki
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2015-09-21T10:27:49Z Vityok: however, it doesn't cover POSIX wrappers and the information for UIOP is rather scarce
2015-09-21T10:28:13Z Vityok: what I would like to have is write(2) with O_NONBLOCK
2015-09-21T10:29:49Z Vityok: sorry, not write(2) but open(2)
2015-09-21T10:30:29Z fe[nl]ix: Vityok: IOlib
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2015-09-21T10:34:15Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: seems like it is it, btw, is there an API docs page?
2015-09-21T10:35:49Z Vityok: unfortunately, quickdocs does not show a lot about it
2015-09-21T10:36:52Z fe[nl]ix: Vityok: there isn't much to document
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2015-09-21T10:40:42Z Vityok: fe[nl]ix: doesn't load on my system because of Groveler
2015-09-21T10:40:52Z Vityok: failure to compile
2015-09-21T10:41:22Z fe[nl]ix: you need to install libfixposix
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2015-09-21T10:42:50Z Vityok: ah, I see, unfortunately I would like to have it with as little additional dependencies, as possible
2015-09-21T10:43:41Z Vityok: something like sb-posix in SBCL
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2015-09-21T10:52:43Z dim: ahah, The variable PGLOADER.USER-SYMBOLS::NIL is unbound. ;-)
2015-09-21T10:53:20Z Shinmera: dim: Note that macros will also be fboundp.
2015-09-21T10:55:50Z Shinmera: dim: Have a look at https://github.com/Shinmera/staple/blob/master/symbols.lisp#L181 if you need to have more symbol naming tests.
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2015-09-21T10:56:35Z hitecnologys: Hello #lisp!
2015-09-21T10:56:48Z hitecnologys: Is crane considered production-ready?
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2015-09-21T10:58:14Z hitecnologys: Or, rather, more general question: what do you use for accessing DB in production-grade code?
2015-09-21T10:58:35Z Shinmera: I use the library that's tailored for the specific DB
2015-09-21T10:58:44Z Shinmera: Preferably PG
2015-09-21T10:58:49Z Shinmera: So: postmodern
2015-09-21T10:58:57Z hitecnologys: I'm struggling between postmodern which I know quite well, cl-dbi which looks promising and crane which looks even more promising but arguably complicated.
2015-09-21T10:59:21Z Shinmera: Generally the recommendation is to stay away from ORMs, which is what Crane is if I remember correctly.
2015-09-21T10:59:31Z hitecnologys: I'd definitely choose postmodern but there's a chance that somebody decides to use MariaDB which would be painful.
2015-09-21T10:59:41Z hitecnologys: Yeah, ORMs are confusing.
2015-09-21T11:00:05Z Shinmera: What do you mean "somebody decides to use MariaDB"?
2015-09-21T11:00:13Z Shinmera: If you demand PG then they can't make that decision.
2015-09-21T11:00:33Z H4ns: if someone decides to use mariadb, they deserve nothing.
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2015-09-21T11:01:07Z hitecnologys: Well, I said I want PG and people said OK but I just want to be safe in case I change my mind.
2015-09-21T11:01:32Z Shinmera: You shouldn't change your mind. PG is the best bet.
2015-09-21T11:01:33Z hitecnologys: Generally, I prefer Postgres and it's fine with the company.
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2015-09-21T11:01:44Z H4ns: hitecnologys: then don't bother.  stay with postmodern.
2015-09-21T11:01:57Z hitecnologys: Alright, I see.
2015-09-21T11:02:52Z Shinmera is reminded that he should create the appropriate cliki pages for his new projects
2015-09-21T11:02:52Z dim: Shinmera: well I want to allow users to write their own lisp code, the only restriction is that their function is to be found in the pgloader.transform package; and now the requirement is that "t" should be a valid symbol name
2015-09-21T11:02:57Z hitecnologys: Then another question comes to mind: is there any sort of extension available that adds native UUID support for Postmodern or I need to write one myself?
2015-09-21T11:03:07Z dim: the current dance seems to be good, I think special casing NIL should be enough
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2015-09-21T11:03:42Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what is it that is lacking, really?
2015-09-21T11:03:49Z dim: are there other symbol candidates in the :cl package that would not be functionp and that I'd want to be aware of apart from t and nil?
2015-09-21T11:03:54Z dim: mmm/
2015-09-21T11:04:03Z dim: of course now I can't have a column named nil
2015-09-21T11:04:18Z dim is trying to support (format nil "~a~a" ... ...)
2015-09-21T11:04:25Z H4ns: most-positive-fixnum, internal-time-units-per-second etc
2015-09-21T11:04:39Z White_Flame: If you want to be future-compatible with shifting away from postgres in some unknown future, then just write your application-specific DB access/modification routines in Lisp as their own API.  simple enough
2015-09-21T11:04:54Z White_Flame: (which call postmodern)
2015-09-21T11:05:09Z hitecnologys: H4ns: well, there's no uuid column type.
2015-09-21T11:05:12Z H4ns: chances are that this never happens, and that adding such a layer is just a waste of time and a maintenance chore
2015-09-21T11:05:22Z H4ns: hitecnologys: in the ddl abstraction you mean?
2015-09-21T11:05:38Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yeah.
2015-09-21T11:05:43Z White_Flame: H4ns: it's also handy when the DB schema changes, and other such DB modifications
2015-09-21T11:05:54Z White_Flame: and a single place to optimize & tweak the actual sql
2015-09-21T11:06:46Z Cymew: Shinmera: I've been looking into plump/clss/lquery. You really seem to be in love with vectors. Are there any deep thought and reason behind that?
2015-09-21T11:07:24Z Shinmera: Cymew: Not really. I'm thinking of writing a replacement for lQuery/CLSS that is more lispy and uses lists, actually.
2015-09-21T11:07:37Z Shinmera: And supporting a switch in Plump to use lists instead of vectors
2015-09-21T11:07:41Z Shinmera: but, won't happen for a good while.
2015-09-21T11:08:13Z Cymew: It really threw me for a loop when I used DESCRIBE on what I got back, and found vectors where I had expected other things.
2015-09-21T11:08:15Z jdz: hitecnologys: what do you mean?  what is this, then: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/static/datatype-uuid.html
2015-09-21T11:08:26Z Shinmera: Cymew: Expected other things? Like?
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2015-09-21T11:08:49Z Cymew: I never use vectors so I gathered I might have missed something obvious about why they were the best tool for the job.
2015-09-21T11:09:01Z hitecnologys: jdz: that's exactly what I mean. There's no such type in Postmodern while Postgres supports it natively.
2015-09-21T11:09:02Z H4ns: jdz: he means postmodern's ddl wrapping.
2015-09-21T11:09:03Z Cymew: Well, I kind of expected... lists. ;)
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2015-09-21T11:09:25Z Shinmera: They probably aren't in this case. I initially thought it'd be faster to use, but now that I'm more experienced I'm not so sure.
2015-09-21T11:09:30Z jdz: oh, my reading skills fail me, again
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2015-09-21T11:10:21Z Cymew: Fair enough.
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2015-09-21T11:10:46Z Cymew: I really need to brush up on my CLOS skills.
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2015-09-21T11:12:11Z Cymew: Looks like so many stuff I grab from quicklisp expose classes and interfaces I'm expected to instanciate. Once more plump/clss/lquery gives me hints of areas I could deep into. :)
2015-09-21T11:12:24Z Cymew: s/deep/dive/
2015-09-21T11:12:29Z Shinmera: Those aren't very clos heavy at all to be honest.
2015-09-21T11:12:43Z Cymew: No, but I have not even touched it for years!
2015-09-21T11:13:23Z Cymew: I bought AMOP this summer, so maybe it's time to dive back into it.
2015-09-21T11:13:52Z Shinmera: If you want something more CLOS heavy look at Parasol.
2015-09-21T11:14:53Z Cymew: I think I'll wait until I remember to actually access a slot of my newly instanciated class...
2015-09-21T11:15:16Z Shinmera: I'd hope you added an accessor for it.
2015-09-21T11:15:25Z Shinmera: Otherwise, SLOT-VALUE
2015-09-21T11:15:34Z Cymew: SLOT-VALUE or ACCESS-SLOT or something else. I don't even remeber.
2015-09-21T11:15:37Z Cymew: Ah, there you go
2015-09-21T11:15:47Z Cymew: I guessed correctly after all
2015-09-21T11:16:01Z loke: SLOT-VALUE (or, SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS if you're deem in the MOP)
2015-09-21T11:16:16Z Cymew: I need to do some reading...
2015-09-21T11:16:36Z Cymew: Anyway, back to DOM trees...
2015-09-21T11:17:40Z Shinmera: I'll be open for questions if you have any.
2015-09-21T11:17:51Z Cymew: Thanks!
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2015-09-21T11:24:30Z dim: Shinmera: in case you're still curious, I think I nailed it now, and you can see context and commit at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/297 and https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/598c860cf5013d52399c07c7f18f1daf0227d305
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2015-09-21T11:27:31Z jeaye: Given a string "(foo bar)", how can I pretty print (with pprint) the form(s) within, excluding the string?
2015-09-21T11:28:00Z Shinmera: "forms within"? It's a string. It only contains characters.
2015-09-21T11:28:01Z remi`bd: (pprint (read str)) ?
2015-09-21T11:28:55Z White_Flame: however, reading can be a security breach, so only use that at the repl, or if you know the input string is clean/trusted
2015-09-21T11:28:57Z jeaye: remi`bd: In my case, that's (pprint (read (first *args*))) which fails saying it's not a stream.
2015-09-21T11:29:21Z White_Flame: clhs read-from-string
2015-09-21T11:29:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm
2015-09-21T11:29:30Z jeaye: White_Flame: This is just a small script for prettying some expressions, so it's safe.
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2015-09-21T11:29:55Z jeaye: White_Flame: That's perfect, thank you.
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2015-09-21T11:30:32Z remi`bd: White_Flame: would you have some documentation about this security breach? I’d like to understand it more in-depth
2015-09-21T11:30:45Z White_Flame: #. is a reader macro to evaluate a form
2015-09-21T11:31:30Z White_Flame: so (read-from-string "(1 2 #.(shell \"format c: /y\"))" is something to watch out for
2015-09-21T11:31:46Z remi`bd: what if you remove this reader macro before reading? (and, possibly, restore it thereafter)
2015-09-21T11:31:54Z White_Flame: reading also conses up symbols, which are of unbounded and by default permanent memory use
2015-09-21T11:32:01Z White_Flame: that would be advisable
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2015-09-21T12:55:21Z flip214: Is there some easy way to get cl-ppcre specialized to simple-strings, so that only 8 bits per "character" are used?
2015-09-21T12:55:44Z flip214: I'd hope that the string matching would get much faster, as eg. a 64bit compare could check 8 characters for equality at once.
2015-09-21T12:56:41Z Vityok: flip214: imho, you are taking too much for granted.
2015-09-21T12:57:31Z Vityok: clhs simple-string
2015-09-21T12:57:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_st.htm
2015-09-21T12:58:09Z Vityok: check the specs: elements of simple-string are of type character - this is 4 bytes per char in UTF-32
2015-09-21T12:58:55Z Vityok: there are several libraries, attempts, to implement full-featured octet-strings (strings with single-byte characters) out there, but none is supported by PPCRE
2015-09-21T12:59:59Z H4ns: flip214: you can always use a non-unicode build of your lisp and hope that it'd make things faster.
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2015-09-21T13:01:49Z flip214: H4ns: yeah, thanks, but that wouldn't work in other codepaths.
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2015-09-21T13:07:33Z Vityok: and even then there is no guarantee that PPCRE will manage to perform 8 character comparisons at once
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2015-09-21T13:42:56Z Cymew: I'm trying to understand ningle. What are you supposed to provide in a route exactly? Can you have a function run that provides html marked up text, a list of the same or what? I find the online docs a bit sparse and my testing generates nothing useful at all.
2015-09-21T13:43:22Z Cymew: A string literal gets rendered, but that's about all I've managed.
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2015-09-21T13:45:46Z eudoxia: Cymew: https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle#request--response
2015-09-21T13:46:03Z eudoxia: so, the return value of a route function is the response body
2015-09-21T13:49:30Z Cymew: (setf (ningle:route *app* "/") #'(lambda () (format nil "This is a text~%")))
2015-09-21T13:49:45Z Cymew: So that should show "This is a text"?
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2015-09-21T13:51:17Z Cymew: It feels like all docs is written for people who have been hacking Ruby on Rails for years, and now just need some notes to do the same in lisp.
2015-09-21T13:51:48Z Shinmera: fukamachi stuff is notoriously undocumented or in the very least underdocumented.
2015-09-21T13:53:23Z Cymew: Maybe ningle is not the best thing to try to use then?
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2015-09-21T13:53:37Z Cymew: Hmm. That example code just silently failed...
2015-09-21T13:53:52Z eudoxia: le shameless plug http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/
2015-09-21T13:54:40Z Shinmera: If I actually had had the time to work on Radiance as I had planned I'd recommend that, but unfortunately the reality is different.
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2015-09-21T13:55:49Z Cymew: Lecerne looks quite a lot better from a documentation standpoint
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2015-09-21T13:56:18Z Cymew: What's up with all these "@foo" that seems to show up in all these web frameworks?
2015-09-21T13:56:37Z Shinmera: That's a thing from cl-annot
2015-09-21T13:56:43Z Shinmera: Which in turn is inspired by Java annotations
2015-09-21T13:56:47Z Shinmera: Can't say I'm a fan.
2015-09-21T13:58:40Z Cymew: Looks ugly as hell, think I.
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2015-09-21T14:00:23Z Cymew: You know what. Having spent the whole day trying to produce some simple text (Yeah, I know I'm dense) I'm thinking I'm going to reject that note about basing web stuff on clack, and just write plain old hunchentoot apps...
2015-09-21T14:00:27Z Guthur: would be nice to see a ClojureScript equivalent for Common Lisp, CL all the way down.
2015-09-21T14:00:42Z Cymew: Maybe even write my own webserver instead...
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2015-09-21T14:01:20Z Shinmera: Cymew: I'll let you know once Radiance has documentation.
2015-09-21T14:01:31Z Cymew: Sounds good.
2015-09-21T14:01:33Z Cymew: The only part that wasn't directly painful was lquery and drakma...
2015-09-21T14:01:38Z Xach: i'm not saying the lisp mafia will come down hard on you for such disobedience, but let's just say some of your parens might become angle brackets
2015-09-21T14:01:40Z Cymew: I like those
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2015-09-21T14:02:11Z Xach: I have a hard time using drakma directly. too many return values for me to keep straight. i like to wrap it up a bit.
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2015-09-21T14:02:29Z Cymew: Xach: Your nicely curved world will start to develop sharp angles?
2015-09-21T14:02:46Z Shinmera: Gonna hurt your fingers on those edgy brackets.
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2015-09-21T14:03:01Z Cymew: :)
2015-09-21T14:03:11Z Shinmera: Cymew: If you just want to have a look at what a Radiance app could look like https://github.com/Shirakumo/reader/blob/master/reader.lisp
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2015-09-21T14:03:52Z Shinmera: And if you can stand bad accents, I had a lightning talk at ELS15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNbn99jGRk&list=PLkDl6Irujx9PL5LfhvvkkeMiCiDij8jzM&index=2
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2015-09-21T14:04:52Z Shinmera: But as I said, can't recommend it yet due to the lack of docs.
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2015-09-21T14:05:56Z Cymew: Many thanks everyone for the pointers, and helpful support. I think I will have to go and hide under a rock for a while. Web programming really made my head hurt. I can't understand how people manage to do this for a living...
2015-09-21T14:06:14Z p_l: Cymew: they drink a lot
2015-09-21T14:06:23Z Cymew: They must
2015-09-21T14:06:40Z Shinmera: Meanwhile I haven't had a drop of alcohol in my life.
2015-09-21T14:06:42Z Shinmera: Tea is good though.
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2015-09-21T14:07:18Z p_l: Shinmera: I have experimentally proven that you don't need drugs to get high as kite :|
2015-09-21T14:07:39Z Shinmera: p_l: If you say so.
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2015-09-21T14:09:06Z Shinmera: The more likely explanation though is that I'm just crazy
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2015-09-21T14:22:42Z drmeister: Shinmera: are the els talks all up?
2015-09-21T14:23:00Z Shinmera: drmeister: Not to my knowledge. These are re-recordings I did while at home after ELS.
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2015-09-21T14:24:33Z eudoxia: ugh
2015-09-21T14:24:56Z drmeister: Yeah - I don't find anything.
2015-09-21T14:25:08Z Shinmera: Gotta bug Xof about it
2015-09-21T14:25:34Z eudoxia: :^) https://twitter.com/els2015/status/615614549312557057
2015-09-21T14:26:44Z Shinmera: It's been a while since then.
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2015-09-21T14:39:58Z jfe: why is it that SBCL complains if a defgeneric for a generic function doesn't proceed the defmethod that defines that function?
2015-09-21T14:40:19Z jfe: i'm not super clear on when one is supposed to use defgeneric.
2015-09-21T14:40:25Z Shinmera: Always.
2015-09-21T14:40:41Z pjb: Well, at least that's what sbcl insists on.
2015-09-21T14:40:45Z Shinmera: You first define your generic function signature with defgeneric, then you add methods by defmethod.
2015-09-21T14:41:16Z pjb: defmethod is explicitely defined as: "If (fboundp function-name) is nil, a generic function is created with default values for the argument precedence order (each argument is more specific than the arguments to its right in the argument list), for the generic function class (the class standard-generic-function), for the method class (the class standard-method), and for the method combination type (the standard method combination type)."
2015-09-21T14:41:32Z pjb: therefore there should be no complain from the compiler if you never used defgeneric.
2015-09-21T14:41:45Z Shinmera: It's a style warning.
2015-09-21T14:41:49Z pjb: But because sbcl is such a bitch, all lispers are forced to use defgeneric everywhere.
2015-09-21T14:42:01Z pjb: Shinmera: warnings are bad, we just consider any warning as errors.
2015-09-21T14:42:19Z Shinmera: I for one think having a defgeneric is a good idea.
2015-09-21T14:43:12Z pjb: Well, it's not that bad, I'd agree, but it's inconvenient, and sometimes, you have to create new packages where to put those generic function names, so they may be used by your various packages.
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2015-09-21T14:45:41Z pjb: now I have redshank-make-defgeneric-for-defmethod and redshank-make-defgeneric-from-defmethod and redshank-split-defgeneric-to-defmethod to manipulate those forms, so it's less of a problem.
2015-09-21T14:47:31Z pjb: redshank stuff: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155561
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2015-09-21T15:07:35Z akkad: is something like with-open-file considered a closure?
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2015-09-21T15:08:25Z Xach: akkad: no
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2015-09-21T15:09:03Z akkad: k. was trying to find the proper name for that sort of construct of scope limited variables.
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2015-09-21T15:11:05Z djh: lexical scope?
2015-09-21T15:12:21Z Xach: it's not lexical, it's dynamic.
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2015-09-21T15:15:35Z jdtest: lexical environment
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2015-09-21T15:23:24Z snv: http://www.shenlanguage.org/lambdassociates/htdocs/blog/the_problems_of_open_source.htm
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2015-09-21T15:41:28Z pjb: snv: on the other hand, privative software like the fucking Twitter app on Android, makes me lose my time, scrolling down all the timeline each time I want to react on a twit, and sometimes even in the middle of my reading, and it drops what I'm reading in the timeline randomly, not counting displaying the time line in the wrong fucking order.    And since it's fucking privative software, I cannot correct it's bugs, (and twitter as a
2015-09-21T15:41:28Z pjb: commercial corporation just will tell me to go fuck myself if I complain to them about it, (at least they don't has money like Microsoft did for me to tell them)).
2015-09-21T15:42:03Z pjb: snv: so stop saying or propagating articles saying that free software is worse than privative software.  I will have to write my own twitter reader!
2015-09-21T15:42:40Z snv: pjb, that is an opportunity to enter competition.
2015-09-21T15:43:18Z oGMo: doesn't twitter disallow new clients?
2015-09-21T15:43:22Z snv: if not for FOSS, you would have got chance to find an investor and hire best programmers, which would create better software
2015-09-21T15:43:57Z pjb: snv: good idea.  Try to compete with a corporation with a web service that's not under AGPL3,  using their own API, and for which the network effect would prevent any competing web service to establish itself.
2015-09-21T15:44:16Z snv: oGMo, they have no legal right to block competitors from entry
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2015-09-21T15:44:45Z pjb: snv: which is not to say that I may not eventually to write and sell under AGPL3 a twitter client, but I have no illusion about the number of paying customers for it; I'll do it for myself.
2015-09-21T15:44:48Z oGMo: snv: this is 1) massively off-topic and 2) utterly idiotic
2015-09-21T15:44:53Z snv: pjb, you can even create a cross-network client.
2015-09-21T15:44:55Z djh: I like tweedle for reading twitter on android
2015-09-21T15:45:36Z oGMo: you'er already historically wrong, so let's get back to writing Common Lisp .. on one of the great open source implementations most likely, rather than $4000+ commerical ones
2015-09-21T15:45:50Z snv: Microsoft was able to compete with IBM in IBM's own domain. And Microsoft won.
2015-09-21T15:47:18Z pjb: djh: Playstore didn't mention it when I searched for twittle apps.  There seem to be also Twidere.  Thanks for the hint.
2015-09-21T15:47:19Z oGMo: i'm finding cl-cffi-gtk is pretty nice for rapid gui
2015-09-21T15:47:32Z djh: pjb: no probs
2015-09-21T15:48:17Z snv: oGMo, Genera is still the best Lisp system.
2015-09-21T15:48:30Z snv: It's kind of hard to appreciate the differences (between Zmacs and Emacs) from reading a description. It's even hard to appreciate it from using Zmacs. Where the light dawns is when you've been using Zmacs for a while and go back to using plain old Emacs.
2015-09-21T15:48:30Z snv: What, you mean there's no keystroke to bring up a list of every change I've made in every file on the box? What, you mean there's code on the box whose source I can't pop up with a keystroke? What, you mean I have to run some sort of tags program on source files before I can find definitions? What, you mean there's code on the box that isn't cross-referenced? What, you mean there's running code on the box whose source I can't step into? What, you me
2015-09-21T15:48:30Z snv: Zmacs is tightly integrated with Genera, and it's Lisp all the way down to the microcode. Emacs is great, don't get me wrong, but it's at a different remove from the system.
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2015-09-21T15:52:31Z pjb: snv: ah!  for example, twidere which is FOSS is already way better than Twitter android app, having the option to read from the oldest twits first!  snv: your article reference was totally dumb.
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2015-09-21T15:53:47Z snv: pjb, "In fact, FOSS uses massive amounts of user time trawling through defunct and buggy applications and posting to forums in search of the magic configuration. FOSS users, being zealots, tend to be blind to this."
2015-09-21T15:54:26Z pjb: No, no and no.  This has nothing to do with that.
2015-09-21T15:54:37Z djh: That's just the nature of the internet, surely?
2015-09-21T15:54:45Z pjb: I can show you catalogs of privative software millions of times longer than FOSS lists!
2015-09-21T15:54:46Z djh: Search for anything and you have to wade through dross
2015-09-21T15:55:06Z pjb: snv: the point of FOSS, is that the software will do what the USER wants, and how the USER wants.
2015-09-21T15:55:19Z pjb: and if not, the user CAN change it.
2015-09-21T15:55:53Z pjb: Even after the original author (corporation) died or changed its mind about the profitability and distribution of the software.
2015-09-21T15:56:58Z jdtest: very aggressive and full of eristic tricks essey - I sont like ir
2015-09-21T15:57:17Z snv: pjb, users are not programmers and good programmers have no time to maintain other peoples software. As a programmer I want a good tool. That is why people license Unreal Engine, instead of distracting themselves to support some Ogre Game Engine
2015-09-21T15:57:40Z pjb: About the only problem non-software corporations have with software are actually those two: making the software they have do what they need it to do (which I cannot help them with when they've not choosen to use free software), and keeping using their software after the producer closed down, (which I cannot help them with when they've not choosen to use free software).
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2015-09-21T16:06:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't genera a good example of the problems with the closed source model?
2015-09-21T16:06:52Z ralt: yes, yes it is.
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2015-09-21T16:07:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: One company goes belly up and everyone loses: especially people who invested in Genera
2015-09-21T16:07:32Z pjb: Indeed. And indeed, it's not the least of the problems with privative software, that even when you have the source, and when the company has closed, you cannot know for sure whether you can use it or not legally!
2015-09-21T16:07:39Z shka: well, it is more about non-standard and expensive vs standard and cheap
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2015-09-21T16:07:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If Symbolic had gone the FOSS route, maybe I'd be using a lisp machine these days
2015-09-21T16:07:59Z shka: that is the primary reason why symbolic failed
2015-09-21T16:08:22Z pjb: Well, we use GNU emacs, along with millions of other users.  That's for sure.
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2015-09-21T16:16:05Z fiddlerwoaroof really like ubiquitous
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2015-09-21T16:26:51Z snv: Giving people personal nuclear power plants they have to maintain themselves won't make using electricity simpler.
2015-09-21T16:27:35Z Shinmera: Please move this somewhere else or shut up about this topic entirely.
2015-09-21T16:27:57Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: If you find anything that could be improved/fixed, let me know.
2015-09-21T16:28:26Z pjb: snv: but it may make the society more democratic.
2015-09-21T16:28:39Z Shinmera: pjb: /please/.
2015-09-21T16:28:51Z pjb: Sorry, I meant less oligarchic.
2015-09-21T16:29:16Z pjb: And yes, cutting off utility is a mean of oppression.
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2015-09-21T16:29:57Z fe[nl]ix: pjb, snv: that's enough
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2015-09-21T16:35:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I will
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2015-09-21T16:42:10Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: you are the current ECL maintainer, right? what would it take to cross-compile stuff with ECL from a debian system? my target has a cross-compiling gcc, it's misp. this is the closest I have found besides the ecl quarterly comment: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15163967/ecl-dump-c-source-for-every-compilation-unit-and-its-dependencies
2015-09-21T16:43:25Z pjb: attila_lendvai: probably the easiest way to do that is to run a linux in qemu-mips.
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2015-09-21T16:44:13Z attila_lendvai: pjb: I'm playing with that now, but it's not trivial for now (first time I'm meeting qemu, trying to give it network now)
2015-09-21T16:45:16Z pjb: Yes, networking with VMs is a bitch.  If you have the tun module compiled for your kernel, then it's ok.  The best is to set up a bridge.
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2015-09-21T17:02:35Z jlarocco_work: is there a quicklisp command to list installed systems?
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2015-09-21T17:07:38Z oGMo: (ql:installed-systems (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")) seems like it might
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2015-09-21T17:12:11Z jlarocco_work: yeah, the results look approximately correct, but it's not exported
2015-09-21T17:12:44Z jlarocco_work: looking at the results is making me second guess my reason for wanting it, though
2015-09-21T17:13:20Z jlarocco_work: thought it would be nice to pre-compile installed systems after rebuilding sbcl
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2015-09-21T17:13:44Z oGMo: "exported"?
2015-09-21T17:14:18Z jlarocco_work: oops, external
2015-09-21T17:14:34Z oGMo: same question heh
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2015-09-21T17:14:55Z drmeister: Memory not working - how do I get the name of a function object?
2015-09-21T17:15:16Z jlarocco_work: (ql:installed-systems ...) in sbcl raise the error "The symbol "INSTALLED-SYSTEMS" is not external in the QUICKLISP-CLIENT package"
2015-09-21T17:15:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: ql::installed-systems would work then
2015-09-21T17:15:50Z oGMo: jlarocco_work: sure it's not FIND-PACKAGE?
2015-09-21T17:16:00Z oGMo: err, find-dist
2015-09-21T17:16:20Z oGMo: also, make sure your client is up to date, of course
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2015-09-21T17:17:03Z oGMo: oh, they're both in QL-DIST, not QL
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2015-09-21T17:17:28Z rme: drmeister: function-lambda-expression?.  I believe it returns the function name as one of its return values.
2015-09-21T17:17:41Z jlarocco_work: okay, that works
2015-09-21T17:17:42Z drmeister: rme thank you
2015-09-21T17:17:59Z drmeister: Yes it does
2015-09-21T17:18:20Z jlarocco_work: (ql-dist:installed-systems (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")) doesn't raise the error
2015-09-21T17:18:51Z jlarocco_work: good to know, even if I'm no longer going to use it
2015-09-21T17:18:51Z jlarocco_work: thank you
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2015-09-21T18:06:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: What is the % prefix supposed to mean?
2015-09-21T18:07:14Z failproofshark: low-level function if im not mistaken
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2015-09-21T18:07:32Z dlowe: private, unexported, low-level function
2015-09-21T18:07:41Z dlowe: "don't call this one"
2015-09-21T18:07:48Z rme: dangerous
2015-09-21T18:07:49Z failproofshark: fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions
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2015-09-21T18:08:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: failproofshark: thank
2015-09-21T18:09:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was slightly confused because sometimes it seems to be treated as signifiying something like "helper function"
2015-09-21T18:10:21Z Shinmera: And it very well might.
2015-09-21T18:10:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, for example, jonathan seems to want you to defmethod %to-json in order to customize serialization
2015-09-21T18:10:56Z Shinmera: That sounds pretty bad.
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2015-09-21T19:32:23Z jfe: is there a way to persist/marshall/serialize procedures?
2015-09-21T19:32:38Z dlowe: save the source code to a file
2015-09-21T19:32:45Z jfe: haha, true :)
2015-09-21T19:32:49Z dlowe: or save your lisp image to disk
2015-09-21T19:32:58Z dlowe: probably not in the way you have in mind
2015-09-21T19:33:23Z jfe: yeah, i meant for storage in a database. the thing i'm working on may have millions of users (that's the hope anyway).
2015-09-21T19:33:31Z jfe: wouldn't make sense to store everything in memory.
2015-09-21T19:33:51Z jfe: i mean, i guess i could. i haven't determined what the cost would be yet.
2015-09-21T19:34:14Z phf: does cl-store fit the bill?
2015-09-21T19:34:15Z Shinmera: Sounds like premature optimisation.
2015-09-21T19:34:35Z dlowe: In my experience, storing code in a database is a great way to have your project be a maintenance nightmare
2015-09-21T19:34:48Z dlowe: and I've seen this antipattern quite a few times
2015-09-21T19:35:46Z pjb: On the other hand, in a lot of applications it would be the sanest thing to do.
2015-09-21T19:36:25Z pjb: For example, the Algerian Tax System is implemented by storing in the database Visual Basic sources to encode the tax rules (they change every year!).
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2015-09-21T19:37:32Z dlowe: Your example doesn't counter my claim at all :)
2015-09-21T19:37:45Z dlowe: I'm quite willing to believe it's a maintenance nightmare
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2015-09-21T19:38:11Z pjb: Doing it with Visual Basic, obviously.  But I would expect doing it in lisp to be less of a problem.
2015-09-21T19:38:38Z pjb: For one thing, there are several examples of lisp _applications_ where the document files are actually lisp _sources_.
2015-09-21T19:39:07Z jfe: my app is controlled by a webserver. i don't need every user's account in-memory at one time. and i want to make sure the data persists if my CL program crashes for whatever reason. is there an alternative to using a database of some sort?
2015-09-21T19:39:12Z jfe: (in this case)
2015-09-21T19:39:16Z pjb: With  serialization methods that output lisp sources to instantiate the corresponding lisp objects.
2015-09-21T19:39:42Z pjb: Therefore storing that in a database doesn't seem far fetched or anymore of a maintainance problem.
2015-09-21T19:39:57Z dlowe: Except then you can only use it from within your lisp program.
2015-09-21T19:40:07Z pjb: The point of lisp is to be able to use code=data in a well controlled way.  There's no reason to make maintainance nightmares of it.
2015-09-21T19:40:21Z pjb: dlowe: I would consider that a big advantage of such a solution :-)
2015-09-21T19:40:28Z dlowe: and someone can't write another program that interfaces with the same data in a reasonable manner
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2015-09-21T19:41:04Z pjb: dlowe: but seriously, you only need to document the sexp format and semantics, and let them re-implement the interpreter pattern in Java. They DO have such a thing as an interpreter pattern, and several variants.
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2015-09-21T19:42:24Z dlowe: And then when your lisp semantics change, say you use an extra function call in your instantiation, all the clients of the same data have to add it too, instead of using the columns/rows interface which the db gives you.
2015-09-21T19:42:53Z pjb: dlowe: this is absolutely no problem, as long as you document your data format.
2015-09-21T19:43:01Z jfe: this isn't really a problem i'd have, though. if i provide the data to users, e.g. via a REST API, i'd export to JSON.
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2015-09-21T19:43:51Z jfe: than again, i suppose the versioning of REST APIs is its own problem...
2015-09-21T19:44:48Z thelisper: Hi. Is there any professional lisp videos except MIT and youtube.Thanks.:)
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2015-09-21T19:45:04Z pjb: dlowe: having lisp source code in data files or databases, doesn't mean that you have random lisp code.  It means you have lisp code generated by your lisp program put there.
2015-09-21T19:46:36Z pjb: Also, it doesn't mean that you eval it directly with CL:EVAL.  Notably if you consider the file or data base as external to your application, you have to real with them as if alien data, and therefore you may want to implement your own interpreter (or at least a validator) for this kind of datacode.
2015-09-21T19:46:48Z dlowe: pjb: I understand what you're saying and its implications. I still think it's a bad way to go.
2015-09-21T19:47:15Z pjb: Writing an interpreter for data as sexp, is no more complex and no more a maintainance nightmare than writing an interpreter for so called "pure" data.  It is exactly the same thing.
2015-09-21T19:47:28Z pjb: You have to write a parser, and to write an interpreter for the parsed data.
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2015-09-21T19:49:22Z dlowe: Doing so places an extra layer of interface on top of an already complex API. It discards a primary strength of a relational database (queries and joins over fields).
2015-09-21T19:49:22Z pjb: dlowe: So in the general case, it's no more hard or a problem than for "pure" data.  On the other hand, in two situations, it's a big win: 1- you're prototyping, therefore you don't have to implement the checks, and use CL:EVAL; Q&D.  2- you really need some unforseen extensibility, when you may need to use features of which you cannot restrict arbitrarily the set before hand.  Eg. when you have to answer rapidly to new tax laws…
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2015-09-21T19:49:48Z dlowe: In the general case, it's much harder, because those parser are *already written and debugged*
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2015-09-21T19:50:36Z pjb: dlowe: Well, I made the comparison with data files where whole object graphs are serialized as lisp code, but indeed, in a database you would more often still have objects with data slots, and methods, and you would use lisp code only to represent the methods of those objects.
2015-09-21T19:50:57Z pjb: dlowe: but notice how you find nowadays databases with two columns: id and xml.
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2015-09-21T19:51:18Z dlowe: Sure, object stores are a different beast. Stick whatever you want in there.
2015-09-21T19:51:19Z thelisper: Hi. Is there any professional lisp videos except MIT and youtube.Thanks.:)
2015-09-21T19:51:39Z dlowe: If you want to use a relational database as an object store, that's kind of weird, but okay.
2015-09-21T19:51:43Z pjb: thelisper: there's also dailymotion and a few others.
2015-09-21T19:52:09Z pjb: dlowe: I think it's an orthogonal question; most of the object database don't store methods.
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2015-09-21T19:53:34Z thelisper: *pjb ? a few others ?
2015-09-21T19:55:27Z pjb: thelisper: your questions is quite underspecified.
2015-09-21T19:55:37Z pjb: MIT and youtube ARE NOT lisp videos.
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2015-09-21T19:55:56Z pjb: MIT is a technical school.  Youtube is a web site providing video hosting.
2015-09-21T19:55:59Z thelisper: any company produced professional Lisp Turtorial in video format
2015-09-21T19:56:04Z pjb: They have nothing to do with professional or lisp.
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2015-09-21T19:56:43Z thelisper: professional video turtorials on lisp
2015-09-21T19:56:51Z PuercoPop: thelisper: I think Allegro CL has some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K1jf4CzK2A
2015-09-21T19:57:02Z PuercoPop: Have not watched them so can't comment on them.
2015-09-21T19:57:09Z phoe_krk: what library should I use to connect SBCL to network? http://www.cliki.net/networking looks like a giant unsorted mess for me and I don't know where to begin
2015-09-21T19:57:22Z thelisper: any other except youtube
2015-09-21T19:57:33Z thelisper: thanks for the replie puercopop
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2015-09-21T19:58:07Z Andrie: Most of the MIT videos also use Scheme and not CL. I think d
2015-09-21T19:58:11Z pjb: thelisper: http://www.dailymotion.com/fr/relevance/universal/search/lisp/1
2015-09-21T19:58:50Z thelisper: tried that not much there
2015-09-21T19:58:57Z Andrie: ailymotion had some.
2015-09-21T19:58:58Z pjb: https://vimeo.com/search?q=lisp
2015-09-21T19:59:19Z pjb: thelisper: don't complain with me, you asked for site providing videos, I give you sites providing videos…
2015-09-21T19:59:49Z pjb: and since you seem to have an aversion for youtube, you won't have an easy life.
2015-09-21T20:00:00Z phf: phoe_krk: my personal answer is to start with usocket, which lets you create blocking streams around tcp/udp connections, and switch if you need something more specific
2015-09-21T20:00:11Z thelisper: sorry im just asking
2015-09-21T20:00:15Z thelisper: pjb
2015-09-21T20:00:40Z Andrie: And I sometime ago stumbled on a Stanford playlist... But I have lost the link and the playlist is hidden except if one has the link.
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2015-09-21T20:01:30Z phf: phoe_krk: note that sbcl has builtin networking module, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Networking. for all practical purposes usocket will give you a cross-implementation compatibility layer
2015-09-21T20:01:44Z phoe_krk: phf: thanks
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2015-09-21T20:04:41Z thelisper: any other university did a open course on lisp except mit and standford
2015-09-21T20:05:29Z phf: phoe_krk: common lisp has a somewhat of a tradition of trivial-* packages, like trivial-shell, which are usually compatibility layers on top of functionality that's usually present in most of lisps but is not part of standard. usually i just look for those. so in this case it'll be trivial-networking. unfortunately a lot of them are unmaintained, but they still usually provide a pointer for something as simple that could be considered a substitute
2015-09-21T20:05:44Z jasom: thelisper: I thought MIT's videos were scheme, not lisp?
2015-09-21T20:06:05Z thelisper: some of was lisp but its very old
2015-09-21T20:06:10Z thelisper: *it
2015-09-21T20:06:47Z phf: *trivial-sockets, rather, which, not being maintained, says "look at usocket instead" (http://www.cliki.net/trivial-sockets)
2015-09-21T20:06:50Z Andrie: Yes they are Scheme.
2015-09-21T20:06:51Z thelisper: some good technique from a good book
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2015-09-21T20:06:55Z pjb: jasom: he's probably refering to the SICP videos, and they're not about lisp or scheme, but about programming and sbtractions.
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2015-09-21T20:08:37Z thelisper: so noone produced professional video turtorials on lisp
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2015-09-21T20:09:18Z Shinmera: people are too busy writing code and books.
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2015-09-21T20:10:22Z pjb: thelisper: here is a professional video about lisp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K01FQ73xgY&list=PLFGwvw1jHU_THdNvecNthaKBHnRv9hxbL&index=26
2015-09-21T20:11:09Z thelisper: interesting
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2015-09-21T20:11:54Z pjb: thelisper: the problem you have is that professionnal lisp video  are not good keyword.  That doesn't let anybody, be it us or google, to know what you want.
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2015-09-21T20:12:42Z thelisper: video turtorials made by expert well known lisper.:)
2015-09-21T20:13:02Z pjb: well known expert lispers don't lose their time doing tutorials.
2015-09-21T20:13:17Z thelisper: hah good one
2015-09-21T20:13:21Z clique: hmm...this is not true
2015-09-21T20:13:43Z phf: thelisper: last "professional" lisp videos (in a sense of corporate training material) are from lisp machine era, lucent doing demos, etc. there was a brief period in the early 2000s when common lisp was on the rise via paul graham and you saw a handful of cool videos produce (like marco's "slime" tutorial video, which was most excellent). i saw one or two blogs recently that tried doing regular common lisp tutorial videos, but the format doesn't see
2015-09-21T20:13:44Z phf: m to be particularly popular
2015-09-21T20:14:07Z pjb: clique: unfortunately, it is true.  At best, they'll do python tutorials.
2015-09-21T20:14:29Z clique: I've followed a god tutorial made by Christian Queinnec
2015-09-21T20:15:05Z clique: if he is not an expert, no one is an expert... just to say
2015-09-21T20:15:32Z pjb: If you look for Christian Queinnec then: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC76C81lnAN71vkVRV2XlRIQ
2015-09-21T20:15:34Z phf: thelisper: imho common lisp is high information density language, and "video tutorials" are low information density format. if you're doing cl, you can pick up "basics" from, say, first chapter of PAIP, but the kind of information you would want to be getting beyond basics doesn't easily render itself to tutorial format
2015-09-21T20:15:59Z clique: I'm following him
2015-09-21T20:16:06Z dlowe: I would say that about programming in general. Video tutorials are almost uniformly terrible.
2015-09-21T20:16:30Z clique: it depends
2015-09-21T20:16:33Z thelisper: i agree phf , i was juts curious about never can find something bellow 90
2015-09-21T20:16:38Z jasom: pjb: but they use scheme as the primary teaching vehicle
2015-09-21T20:16:39Z clique: the video in english maybe yes
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2015-09-21T20:17:00Z pjb: jasom: as mathematical notation, yes.
2015-09-21T20:17:08Z pjb: They could have as well used lambda calculus.
2015-09-21T20:17:55Z clique: currently I follow mostly videos in english or spanish :)
2015-09-21T20:18:13Z clique: in french and spanish sorry
2015-09-21T20:18:48Z phf: (thelisper: https://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov is marco's tutorial, if you haven't seen it)
2015-09-21T20:19:00Z thelisper: i did :P
2015-09-21T20:19:04Z phf: well then!
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2015-09-21T20:20:11Z clique: thelisper: you need to learn new languages... english is not the only one.
2015-09-21T20:20:27Z thelisper: I know, im trying
2015-09-21T20:20:33Z clique: there are a lot of interesting video... that unfortunately I'm not able to understand
2015-09-21T20:20:55Z pjb: clique: but it's not tutorials, it's MOOC.  Queinnec was a professor.
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2015-09-21T20:21:37Z clique: anyway there are a lot of resources
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2015-09-21T20:21:56Z pjb: as long as you can elaborate some precise and relevant keywords.
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2015-09-21T20:22:05Z thelisper: but it's not tutorials, it's MOOC.  Queinnec was a professor.
2015-09-21T20:22:08Z thelisper: link please
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2015-09-21T20:22:17Z pjb: thelisper: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC76C81lnAN71vkVRV2XlRIQ
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2015-09-21T20:22:55Z pjb: thelisper: https://pages.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/Queinnec.html
2015-09-21T20:22:56Z thelisper: well always wanted to learn french
2015-09-21T20:23:09Z thelisper: :P
2015-09-21T20:23:41Z phf: thelisper: duolingo is pretty good
2015-09-21T20:23:53Z phoe_krk: why do I have the feeling that learning emacs is going to be as bad as playing Undertale's genocide ending to the very end
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2015-09-21T20:24:07Z thelisper: lol phoe
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2015-09-21T20:24:17Z phoe_krk: thelisper: I'm having a bad time
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2015-09-21T20:24:55Z thelisper: i know to feeling i use lisp cabinet
2015-09-21T20:24:57Z dlowe: phoe_krk: just treat it like a normal editor at first. Use the menus and arrow keys.
2015-09-21T20:24:59Z thelisper: *the
2015-09-21T20:25:08Z pjb: phoe_krk: learning emacs is the best thing that can happen to a programmer.
2015-09-21T20:25:13Z dlowe: phoe_krk: you'll pick up the shortcuts and crazy key combos later
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2015-09-21T20:25:49Z phoe_krk: I just want it to evaluate what's typed in the window above and print the output below ;_;
2015-09-21T20:25:59Z thelisper: ahah
2015-09-21T20:26:15Z thelisper: put a ' before
2015-09-21T20:26:27Z phoe_krk: no
2015-09-21T20:26:28Z phoe_krk: no no
2015-09-21T20:26:28Z phf: phoe_krk: if you're on mac, you can use clozure cl, which has a spiffy ide.
2015-09-21T20:26:31Z phoe_krk: let me show you
2015-09-21T20:26:33Z phoe_krk: phf: windows
2015-09-21T20:27:25Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/t9f9bB4.png
2015-09-21T20:27:49Z phoe_krk: I want to hit a keystroke that will make SBCL below compile the text above and give me the result
2015-09-21T20:28:18Z pjb: phoe_krk: use slime-eval-last-expression-in-repl
2015-09-21T20:28:55Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: just hit C-c C-c while the cursor is on the form?
2015-09-21T20:28:56Z dlowe: phoe_krk: C-c C-j
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2015-09-21T20:29:37Z phoe_krk: ohhh
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2015-09-21T20:29:41Z phoe_krk: that's the thing
2015-09-21T20:29:52Z phoe_krk: 380 keystrokes more and this will become usable
2015-09-21T20:29:56Z phoe_krk: thanks
2015-09-21T20:30:41Z jasom: phoe_krk: you can find a lot of these shortcuts and features just by browsing the SLIME menu
2015-09-21T20:30:47Z pjb: phoe_krk: are you an idiot?  Don't you know that you can establish your own key bindings in emacs?
2015-09-21T20:31:08Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: also see http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/11 for a list of common chords.
2015-09-21T20:31:14Z phoe_krk: pjb: I know, but I'll have to memorize them
2015-09-21T20:31:20Z phoe_krk: jasom: Shinmera: thanks
2015-09-21T20:31:26Z pjb: go away.
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2015-09-21T20:31:33Z phoe_krk: pjb: no
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2015-09-21T20:32:04Z pjb: You fucking wrote "a <fucking> keystroke"!  <phoe_krk> I want to hit a keystroke that will make SBCL below compile the text above and give me the result
2015-09-21T20:32:28Z phoe_krk: yes, that's one keystroke
2015-09-21T20:32:40Z pjb: But you didn't specify which one!
2015-09-21T20:32:45Z pjb: So go bind it yourself!
2015-09-21T20:33:06Z phoe_krk: okay, sorry
2015-09-21T20:33:18Z Shinmera: What's with all the anger in here
2015-09-21T20:33:36Z pjb: You help people, and they keep complaining.
2015-09-21T20:34:23Z phoe_krk: pjb: I didn't complain about your help
2015-09-21T20:34:58Z phoe_krk: pjb: I complained about the fact that's a drop in a sea of keystrokes I need to learn anew
2015-09-21T20:35:12Z pjb: We can discuss that.
2015-09-21T20:35:23Z Shinmera: Ain't so bad. Took me maybe a week to get the hang of most of it
2015-09-21T20:35:36Z Shinmera: And then you just pick up on things as you need and discover them.
2015-09-21T20:35:55Z pjb: phoe_krk: in a human language, you've got to master at least 100,000 or 200,000 words, and you still have to make sentences for most of your requests.
2015-09-21T20:36:20Z pjb: phoe_krk: why would you expect to be able to query everything of a computer system, with only 26 commands?
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2015-09-21T20:36:48Z phoe_krk: pjb: I've had decades to learn natural language and, trust me, I was complaining about that in the very beginning as well
2015-09-21T20:36:58Z pjb: So either you use only 26 letters, and you have to compose long command names, or you use 2 or 3 keys, and then you still have to memorize all the combinations.
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2015-09-21T20:37:56Z pjb: And the thing is that even if we had an AI, you would still have to make phrases, to expression your needs.  key bindings are the most efficient way, and yes, it means you have to learn them.
2015-09-21T20:38:01Z phoe_krk: pjb: and I'm not complaining about the amount itself, I'm complaining about all of them seeming the same and taking an extremely long time to look up and utilize
2015-09-21T20:38:15Z pjb: That's why emacs is so good: because you can use your own bindings, so learning is easier.
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2015-09-21T20:38:35Z pjb: phoe_krk: you can use a bigger keyboard, with a lot of function keys.
2015-09-21T20:38:46Z phoe_krk: pjb: not funny.
2015-09-21T20:38:47Z pjb: Notice that the numeric keypad can be used as function keys in X11.
2015-09-21T20:39:28Z pjb: And the only progress we've made here, is to use a keyboard with dynamic keys, like the optimus keyboard.  But then, you have to move your hands away and look at the keyboard to find the commands.  Not a paragon of efficiency.
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2015-09-21T20:41:35Z jasom: pjb: you are being an ass
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2015-09-21T20:41:53Z pjb: jasom: sure.
2015-09-21T20:41:54Z phoe_krk: jasom: he probably is, don't mind him
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2015-09-21T20:50:12Z resttime: phoe_krk, if you're learning how to use emacs, grab paredit later on if you haven't
2015-09-21T20:50:37Z resttime: and EVIL if you prefer using VIM bindings
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2015-09-21T20:52:34Z resttime: phoe_krk, I think you d/c'd so if you didn't get my message "if you're learning how to use emacs, grab paredit later on if you haven't
2015-09-21T20:52:34Z resttime: <resttime> and EVIL if you prefer using VIM bindings"
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2015-09-21T20:52:58Z phoe_krk: resttime: thanks, I'll grab that once I get used to the basic basics
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2015-09-21T20:53:57Z resttime: Neat, because paredit is really great for editing sexp's
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2015-09-21T20:54:12Z resttime: Also maybe grab rainbow parenthesis if you like colors too
2015-09-21T20:54:51Z resttime: Should help along with getting used to indentation or such things
2015-09-21T20:55:29Z aeth: paredit's kind of OK, it's not perfect. e.g. it overrides M-x delete-region, which is a very convenient functionality (i.e. select and delete). It does it so you can't imbalance the parens, but that makes you kill (i.e. waste space in the clipboard, since the kill ring is now integrated) and is completely unnecessary in comments or when you're deleting a whole block of code or something
2015-09-21T20:56:00Z aeth: When I'm e.g. coding in Lua I use that functionality all the time to delete sections of code, and I find myself missing that in paredit-using modes (i.e. lisps and schemes)
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2015-09-21T20:56:35Z aeth: It also overrides C-j to evaluate in *scratch* and *slime-scratch*
2015-09-21T20:56:36Z pjb: you can use paredit to edit lua and c and java too.
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2015-09-21T20:56:58Z pjb: paredit is agnostic about its parentheses, you can get the same effects on [] and {} too.
2015-09-21T20:57:04Z aeth: pjb: unless paredit manages {}s in Lua tables and end's in Lua blocks, it's not as useful.
2015-09-21T20:57:06Z pjb: (harder on <> for C++ tmeplates).
2015-09-21T20:57:31Z pjb: aeth: no, where you couldl improve it is in dealing with ; for statements.
2015-09-21T20:57:55Z aeth: Getting effects on {}s is great for Lua, I guess. Not getting automatic "end" insertion when writing functions probably isn't that great. With automatic "end" insertion, writing Lua would be as convenient as writing Python, but with the added benefit of indentation being smarter due to the more explicit syntax
2015-09-21T20:58:32Z aeth: Python has to be a nightmare to get right in auto-indentation.
2015-09-21T20:58:48Z dlowe: the expectations are low
2015-09-21T20:59:29Z mood: Python is basically impossible to get right with auto-indentation, because some of the information you need for proper auto-indent can only be found in the indentation itself.
2015-09-21T21:00:02Z aeth: right
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2015-09-21T21:00:39Z aeth: I liked Python a lot more before electric indent mode than I do now
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2015-09-21T21:07:13Z aeth: pjb: paredit doesn't manage {}s by default, does it have to be modified to do that?
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2015-09-21T21:08:11Z thelisper: Thanks for all the help.Have a nice day.:D
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2015-09-21T21:09:44Z phf: aeth: i think you just need to bind paredit-open/close-curly to {/} respectively
2015-09-21T21:10:06Z aeth: ah
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2015-09-22T00:06:48Z psilisp: I have a question about common lisp:
2015-09-22T00:06:53Z psilisp: When I run this:
2015-09-22T00:06:55Z psilisp: ((lambda x y (cons x ()) ) 'z '())
2015-09-22T00:07:06Z psilisp: I get (z)
2015-09-22T00:07:20Z psilisp: but when i run this: ((lambda x y (cons () ()) ) 'z '())
2015-09-22T00:07:23Z psilisp: I get ()
2015-09-22T00:07:56Z psilisp: but, if i take out the thing that's different: (cons x ()) versus (cons () ())
2015-09-22T00:08:07Z psilisp: both yield the exact same result: (())
2015-09-22T00:08:10Z psilisp: so wtf
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2015-09-22T00:11:24Z jasom: psilisp: you mean (lambda (x y) (cons () ()) ) 'z '()) right?
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2015-09-22T00:12:12Z jasom: ((lambda (x y) (cons () ()) ) 'z '()) => (NIL) ; looks right to me
2015-09-22T00:12:20Z pjb: ((lambda x y (cons x ()) ) 'z '()) ==> (lambda x y (cons x nil)) is not a valid lambda expression.
2015-09-22T00:12:21Z pjb:  
2015-09-22T00:14:23Z psilisp: jasom: no, i mean exactly what i typed
2015-09-22T00:14:35Z psilisp: i copied and pasted it from my terminal
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2015-09-22T00:15:35Z jasom: psilisp: well that's not a well-formed lisp program
2015-09-22T00:15:43Z jasom: psilisp: which implementation are you using that allows it?
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2015-09-22T00:15:59Z psilisp: http://joeganley.com/code/jslisp.html
2015-09-22T00:16:08Z psilisp: i suppose this implementation could have a bug
2015-09-22T00:16:33Z pjb: You could suppose this is not Common Lisp.  #lisp is about Common Lisp.  Try ##lisp.
2015-09-22T00:16:44Z psilisp: the expressions i posted were formed after i did an experiment and found an odd result, and then incrementally simplified to try to isolate the source of the discrepancy
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2015-09-22T00:16:56Z jasom: psilisp: again, which implementation?
2015-09-22T00:17:13Z psilisp: some guy's javascript implementation. i think its just the basic mccarthy lisp
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2015-09-22T00:17:27Z psilisp: i linked to it above
2015-09-22T00:17:30Z jasom: psilisp: that would not be common lisp then
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2015-09-22T00:17:47Z psilisp: oh, i thought common lisp is an extension of it
2015-09-22T00:18:13Z jasom: psilisp: well it is definitely closer than some lisp-like languages, and the fix in this case is the same; you need parens around your lambda list
2015-09-22T00:18:23Z jasom: so (lambda (x y) ...) not (lambda x y ...)
2015-09-22T00:18:40Z snv: psilisp, CL is the same way extension of mccarthy's lisp, the C is extension of fortran.
2015-09-22T00:18:44Z jasom: psilisp: I bet that implementation doesn't check that you did it right so just does *something* which is not very predictable
2015-09-22T00:18:57Z psilisp: oh ok
2015-09-22T00:19:03Z snv: mccarthy's lisp had dynamic scope
2015-09-22T00:19:13Z jasom: snv: I think CLtL1 did too
2015-09-22T00:19:21Z psilisp: yes this mess started when i tried removing lambda parens, found to my surprise that it ran, then tried to figure out the rules for its behavior
2015-09-22T00:20:02Z snv: then mccarthy's lisp macros were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr
2015-09-22T00:20:04Z psilisp: so i guess its not interesting after all, it shouldnt have been legal
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2015-09-22T00:20:18Z jasom: anyway ##lisp is probably a better channel for discussion of this
2015-09-22T00:20:19Z snv: CL has completely different semantics
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2015-09-22T00:21:07Z psilisp: btw can anyone help me install lisp in a box? i downloaded the 64 bit version for linux, not sure what to do now
2015-09-22T00:21:10Z psilisp: im a noob at computers
2015-09-22T00:21:20Z jasom: psilisp: which lisp in a box?
2015-09-22T00:21:27Z psilisp: hold on ill find it
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2015-09-22T00:21:43Z psilisp: https://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/
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2015-09-22T00:21:54Z psilisp: i dont care tho; you could recommend another#
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2015-09-22T00:22:41Z jasom: psilisp: FYI "Last updated: February 6, 2011" but you can probably use that to get started.
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2015-09-22T00:23:09Z jasom: anyway, run lispbox.sh and you should get an emacs with a REPL
2015-09-22T00:23:21Z psilisp: could you link me to a more modern distribution, if you know of one?
2015-09-22T00:23:24Z jasom: If not, I'll write you up a 30 second guide to getting things setup
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2015-09-22T00:24:32Z psilisp: i tried that already, by the way
2015-09-22T00:24:34Z psilisp: user@user-ThinkPad-X200:~/Desktop/lispbox-0.7$ sh lispbox.sh lispbox.sh: 2: lispbox.sh: Bad substitution
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2015-09-22T00:25:14Z snv: psilisp, welcome to open source!
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2015-09-22T00:25:38Z psilisp: if i instead call bash lispbox.sh, i get this:
2015-09-22T00:25:39Z psilisp: user@user-ThinkPad-X200:~/Desktop/lispbox-0.7$ bash lispbox.sh ./emacs-23.2/bin/emacs: error while loading shared libraries: libjpeg.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
2015-09-22T00:25:42Z Xach: psilisp: i don't think lispbox is a great option these days
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2015-09-22T00:25:50Z psilisp: what should i use then?
2015-09-22T00:25:53Z Xach: psilisp: the components of lispbox are now pretty easy to install on their own.
2015-09-22T00:25:53Z psilisp: i just want common lisp
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2015-09-22T00:26:03Z jasom: psilisp: okay, I'll write a quick set of steps (unless Xach has one written up already)
2015-09-22T00:26:10Z psilisp: ok, coo
2015-09-22T00:26:12Z psilisp: cool
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2015-09-22T00:26:20Z jasom: psilisp: step 1: install emacs via your systems package manager (apt-get or whatever)
2015-09-22T00:26:21Z Xach: I don't have a set of steps, sorry.
2015-09-22T00:26:33Z Xach: i used to use the mohiji guides but they are now kind of old
2015-09-22T00:26:47Z snv: psilisp, can you fetch an sbcl binary?
2015-09-22T00:27:37Z snv: IIRC, franz and allegro have free versions for private use. They have better GUI than the dated Emacs.
2015-09-22T00:28:22Z jasom: psilisp: actually http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ looks reasonably good
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2015-09-22T00:29:14Z jasom: snv: franz makes allegro common lisp, and last I checked there free version was very limited (couldn't save images, and heap size was restricted)
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2015-09-22T00:29:43Z psilisp: i dont know what it means to 'fetch' something
2015-09-22T00:29:46Z psilisp: i have emacs already
2015-09-22T00:29:48Z snv: jasom, that should be enough to get psilisp started.
2015-09-22T00:29:53Z psilisp: it came with this distro
2015-09-22T00:30:10Z jasom: psilisp: then skip that part, and install sbcl
2015-09-22T00:30:18Z psilisp: ill look for it
2015-09-22T00:30:31Z jasom: the link I posted earlier is good http://www.jonathanfischer.net/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
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2015-09-22T00:30:55Z psilisp: sbcl isnt in my list of software in the add/remove applications feature
2015-09-22T00:30:58Z psilisp: ill go to jasom's link now
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2015-09-22T00:32:47Z psilisp: the first step in those instructions is to install sbcl
2015-09-22T00:32:50Z psilisp: looks like a pain
2015-09-22T00:33:14Z White_Flame: if you get SBCL from your package manager, it's always going to be way out of date, in my experience
2015-09-22T00:33:16Z jasom: psilisp: 4 shell commands?
2015-09-22T00:33:17Z White_Flame: so grab the source
2015-09-22T00:33:41Z psilisp: oh yes, i sould try synaptic
2015-09-22T00:33:49Z psilisp: that would be easy, and if its out of date that should be ok, right?
2015-09-22T00:34:08Z jasom: psilisp: yeah
2015-09-22T00:34:15Z psilisp: ok, that's what ill do
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2015-09-22T00:36:04Z psilisp: great, that's done
2015-09-22T00:36:06Z psilisp: easy
2015-09-22T00:36:12Z psilisp: <3 synaptic
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2015-09-22T00:37:22Z psilisp: next, cl-quicklisp, right?
2015-09-22T00:37:27Z psilisp: not sure what the cl stands for
2015-09-22T00:37:38Z jasom: psilisp: once you have sbcl and emacs https://phab.jasom.org/F10 will set everythign up for you
2015-09-22T00:38:00Z jasom: it's a shell script to automate setting up quicklisp and slime
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2015-09-22T00:38:52Z psilisp: how do i target a user, like you do to me, jasom?
2015-09-22T00:39:30Z jasom: psilisp: most IRC clients will highlight anything with your nick in them.  They will also tab-complete people's nicks
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2015-09-22T00:40:45Z pjb: psilisp: it's free form.
2015-09-22T00:40:53Z psilisp: jasom: so i can just do this?
2015-09-22T00:40:56Z jasom: psilisp: yup
2015-09-22T00:40:58Z psilisp: great
2015-09-22T00:41:08Z psilisp: ok, i cant run the setup file; it does this:
2015-09-22T00:41:09Z psilisp: user@user-ThinkPad-X200:~/Desktop$ sudo bash setup-quicklisp-emacs.sh setup-quicklisp-emacs.sh: line 3: curl: command not found
2015-09-22T00:41:29Z White_Flame: sudo apt-get install curl
2015-09-22T00:41:33Z White_Flame: it's similar to wget
2015-09-22T00:41:34Z jasom: ah, you'll need curl installed and don't run it as root, it is for setting up a single user with it
2015-09-22T00:42:10Z jasom: so no sudo on the setup-quicklisp-emacs.sh
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2015-09-22T00:42:54Z psilisp: great, its installing nw
2015-09-22T00:43:00Z psilisp: i removed "sudo"
2015-09-22T00:43:05Z jasom: perfect
2015-09-22T00:43:29Z jasom: then just run emacs and type "Alt-x" followed by "slime" and hit enter
2015-09-22T00:43:46Z jasom: that will startup the lisp IDE called "slime" that is implemented on top of emacs
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2015-09-22T00:45:48Z akkad hands him lw
2015-09-22T00:45:56Z pjb: It should work better with Meta-x.
2015-09-22T00:46:06Z pjb: Alt-x inserts the character: ×
2015-09-22T00:46:06Z jasom: pjb: my keyboard lacks a meta key
2015-09-22T00:46:26Z White_Flame: you mean AltGr-x?
2015-09-22T00:46:33Z psilisp: great, its working
2015-09-22T00:46:34Z pjb: jasom: does it lack a ESC key?
2015-09-22T00:46:36Z psilisp: AltGr didnt' work
2015-09-22T00:46:39Z pjb: White_Flame: No, I mean Alt-x.
2015-09-22T00:46:39Z psilisp: Alt did tho
2015-09-22T00:46:44Z pjb: I'm on MacOSX.
2015-09-22T00:46:51Z White_Flame: ah
2015-09-22T00:46:57Z psilisp: thats strange; on windows i had 2 alt keys
2015-09-22T00:47:24Z pjb: And here, I'm on Linux, and Alt-x is × too; I like consistency.
2015-09-22T00:48:03Z jasom: psilisp: For historical reasons the key labled "Alt" on PC keyboards is mapped in X11 as "mod1" which emacs calls "Meta" so the emacs way of writing this shortcut would be "M-x"
2015-09-22T00:48:22Z pjb: You're lucky if you have to alt keys, you can remap one to meta!
2015-09-22T00:49:11Z pjb: For example, I have A-a is bound to pjb-erc-answer, while M-a is bound to backward-sentence.
2015-09-22T00:49:23Z pjb: Anyways, Alt and Meta are very different.
2015-09-22T00:49:34Z psilisp: whats X11?
2015-09-22T00:49:48Z jasom: pjb: the windowing system currently used by linux
2015-09-22T00:49:58Z jasom: sorry that was supposed to be to psilisp
2015-09-22T00:49:59Z psilisp: ok
2015-09-22T00:50:04Z psilisp: emacs is scary
2015-09-22T00:50:28Z White_Flame: emacs is very, very different from modern editors
2015-09-22T00:50:32Z jasom: psilisp: you can get by using the mouse for most things, and the menus show the keyboard shortcuts for various commands
2015-09-22T00:50:40Z pjb: psilisp: it's not limited to Linux. I use it on MacOSX, and there are also server X11 servers on MS-Windows http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/
2015-09-22T00:50:48Z pjb: http://x.cygwin.com/
2015-09-22T00:51:42Z jasom: I first used X11 on SunOS, but this like the difference between alt and meta are details that psilisp can get away with ignoring for now.
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2015-09-22T00:52:21Z pjb: One advantage of using X11 on all your systems is that you get to have the same UI look and feel on all the systems you have to use.
2015-09-22T00:52:49Z pjb: Another advantage of X11 (but it may be limited to unix) is that the keyboard driver is way faster than on MacOSX or MS-Windows.
2015-09-22T00:54:20Z psilisp: when i type an invalid lisp expression, something happens that i dont understand, and i dont know how to get back the ability to type expressoins
2015-09-22T00:54:59Z pjb: psilisp: the debugger is entered.
2015-09-22T00:55:00Z White_Flame: hit 'q' in the error window
2015-09-22T00:55:09Z psilisp: 1 also works i found
2015-09-22T00:55:16Z pjb: psilisp: instead, debug it.
2015-09-22T00:55:27Z White_Flame: when a condition is hit, it lets you interact with the stack trace, etc
2015-09-22T00:55:42Z pjb: psilisp: https://www.google.fr/search?q=slime+debugger+tutorial
2015-09-22T00:56:12Z aeth: pjb: The problem with remapping an alt is that right alt is also a convenient location for the compose key for stuff like ∞ or é on US keyboards.
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2015-09-22T00:56:38Z pjb: aeth: this is not a problem. Don't remap just an alt, remap ALL your keys!
2015-09-22T00:56:49Z jasom: aeth: I use right-super for that
2015-09-22T00:56:52Z pjb: aeth: it's obligatory, otherwise, how do you have the same layout on all you computers?
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2015-09-22T00:57:14Z White_Flame: I used to do stuff like that, but then it gets real confusing to use others' computer
2015-09-22T00:57:26Z White_Flame: it's much better to just be flexible to use different environments and learn the defaults
2015-09-22T00:57:33Z pjb: White_Flame: no, it's not. There's a reason why user accounts have been invented.
2015-09-22T00:57:50Z pjb: No, it's much better to have the same environment on all the computer systems you have to use.
2015-09-22T00:58:04Z pjb: It avoids catastrophic and costly cockpit errors.
2015-09-22T00:58:30Z aeth: I once had to use the computer of someone who uses Dvorak. Not fun. Of course all such keyboards are typically labelled QWERTY, etc., even when they're not at the software level.
2015-09-22T00:58:30Z psilisp: pjb: the debugger tutorial that i found there wasn't easy for me, but it doesnt matter now; im just testing simple expressions to familiarize myself with the language at the moment
2015-09-22T00:58:44Z White_Flame: that also means you can't communicate specifics of computer use to others, since you're always going to describe your customizations, not what other people are seeing on their machines
2015-09-22T00:58:47Z psilisp: reading the roots of lisp by paul graham
2015-09-22T00:59:17Z jasom: psilisp: "q" will abort, the number keys will do whatever action is listed by the number in the debugger
2015-09-22T00:59:40Z jasom: psilisp: I can recommand PCL if you are experienced at programming in another language, and "A Gentle introduction to symbolic computation" if you are not
2015-09-22T00:59:53Z jasom: minion: tell psilisp about pcl
2015-09-22T00:59:53Z minion: psilisp: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-09-22T00:59:56Z jasom: minion: tell psilisp about gentle
2015-09-22T00:59:56Z minion: psilisp: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2015-09-22T01:00:04Z pjb: Anyways, when I have to use other's computer (ie. actually work computers), I bring my own tenkeyless otaku keyboard and my own optical HP mouse, so I have the same hardware interface on all my computers.
2015-09-22T01:00:16Z psilisp: thanks
2015-09-22T01:00:19Z pjb: The nice side effect of the otaku keyboards, is that other people don't use your computers then.
2015-09-22T01:01:19Z pjb: White_Flame: you're wrong, because emacs interactions are not specified in terms of physical keyboard, but in terms of keysyms.
2015-09-22T01:01:26Z psilisp: jasom and minion: thanks, ill look at those two books as well
2015-09-22T01:01:28Z aeth: I thought that this was the only acceptable keyboard for this channel? https://i.imgur.com/eP6TDlw.jpg
2015-09-22T01:01:39Z aeth: I wonder if there's a way to hook this into USB
2015-09-22T01:01:39Z pjb: White_Flame: hence Meta, instead of the second key on the left of the space bar, or the key labelled "Escape".
2015-09-22T01:01:40Z White_Flame: the mapping between physical keyboard and keysyms is somethign outside of emacs, and varies
2015-09-22T01:02:08Z pjb: But not everybody is rich enough to have it.  There are classes…
2015-09-22T01:02:22Z psilisp: grahams essay gets me stuck when he introduces this: (label f (lambda (p1... pn) e))
2015-09-22T01:02:30Z pjb: White_Flame: from user to user, but not for a given user from computer to computer.
2015-09-22T01:02:37Z psilisp: no, sorry, wrong thing
2015-09-22T01:02:39Z psilisp: that makes sense
2015-09-22T01:02:49Z pjb: My .bashrc contains xmodmal ~/.xmodmap on all the computers I use.
2015-09-22T01:03:23Z psilisp: when he introduces: ((lambda (f) (f '(b c)))         '(lambda (x) (cons 'a x)))
2015-09-22T01:03:28Z pjb: psilisp: this is Lisp 1.5; cf. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-09-22T01:03:55Z White_Flame: and none of that nullifies the fact that a default linux & emacs install has the user entering "Alt-x" to invoke emacs M-x
2015-09-22T01:04:26Z White_Flame: or "Esc-x"
2015-09-22T01:04:42Z pjb: psilisp: you can also have a look at elizagen, which also has such a compatibility layer, for pdp lisp.
2015-09-22T01:05:01Z pjb: https://github.com/jeffshrager/elizagen.git
2015-09-22T01:05:05Z aeth: For most emacs users "M-x" is just a funny way of writing Alt+x
2015-09-22T01:05:15Z pjb: It should not be.
2015-09-22T01:05:24Z pjb: It should be Alt-x a funny way to enter Meta-x.
2015-09-22T01:05:40Z psilisp: what is that and what would i do with it, pjb
2015-09-22T01:05:42Z pjb: This is because they don't have the right keyboard, cf. link above.
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2015-09-22T01:05:55Z psilisp: (i went htere, see lisp stuff, dont know what it is)
2015-09-22T01:05:58Z pjb: psilisp: you would run (label f (lambda (p1... pn)
2015-09-22T01:05:58Z pjb: e)).
2015-09-22T01:06:24Z pjb: psilisp: why don't you read what I write here?
2015-09-22T01:06:32Z pjb: I told you what's in there.
2015-09-22T01:06:37Z jasom: psilisp: http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/jmc.lisp <-- this is what you are going off of?
2015-09-22T01:06:40Z psilisp: i think i did
2015-09-22T01:07:37Z psilisp: no, this: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html
2015-09-22T01:07:46Z pjb: you're looking at pre-Common Lisp lisp code.   wang is a LISP 1.5 program for which I wrote the required compatibility layer.  elizagen is a PDP lisp program for which jeff wrote the required compatibility layer.  IIRC, both contain a label form.
2015-09-22T01:08:02Z jasom: psilisp: yeah, what I posted was linked from "The Code" which is McCarthy's lisp translated to run under common lisp
2015-09-22T01:08:46Z psilisp: i also didnt understand what i was looking at at your link: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-09-22T01:08:57Z pjb: I told you!
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2015-09-22T01:09:02Z psilisp: it appears that you were saying that graham was using lisp 1.5?
2015-09-22T01:09:11Z pjb: psilisp: <pjb> psilisp: this is Lisp 1.5;
2015-09-22T01:09:16Z psilisp: oh
2015-09-22T01:09:21Z psilisp: and graham was using an older one?
2015-09-22T01:09:26Z pjb: There's no older one.
2015-09-22T01:09:42Z psilisp: i see 2 different syntaxes
2015-09-22T01:09:50Z pjb: Technically there was LISP 1.0, but I don't know if we still have the sources of that.
2015-09-22T01:09:50Z psilisp: one with a (f) in it, and one with just f
2015-09-22T01:09:54Z jasom: psilisp: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp <-- this will work under common lisp
2015-09-22T01:10:15Z pjb: The sources of LISP 1.5 we have are from 1962.
2015-09-22T01:10:22Z jasom: psilisp: anything else from that article likely won't, as it's historical and presents examples from over 50 years ago
2015-09-22T01:10:50Z psilisp: ok, so i suppose he's using mcarthy's version with respect to parens
2015-09-22T01:10:58Z psilisp: though he uses nil as well, which is newer
2015-09-22T01:11:05Z psilisp: (i think)
2015-09-22T01:11:35Z White_Flame: If you want to learn Common Lisp, I would stick with the newer books (PCL, Gentle Introduction) instead of going through the historical versions
2015-09-22T01:11:52Z pjb: At least at first.
2015-09-22T01:12:08Z pjb: history is interesting, but it's better to have some modern notions first.
2015-09-22T01:12:17Z psilisp: ok
2015-09-22T01:12:30Z psilisp: well now i have the tools i need to read pcl
2015-09-22T01:12:40Z psilisp: thanks
2015-09-22T01:13:08Z phf: pjb: are you saying keyboard input in x11 emacs on mac is faster then carbon/ns versions?
2015-09-22T01:13:18Z pjb: That's how it feels at least.
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2015-09-22T01:14:26Z pjb: Keyboard input on X11/Linux feels better and faster than on MacOSX or MS-Windows native or X11 on those systems.  Notably MS-Windows is very bad there.  And this, when using the same hardware and the same layout.
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2015-09-22T01:14:34Z phf: hm, i should give it a try then. i can't seem to get rid of perceptible sluggishness in carbon emacs. in fairness the only editor where that's not the case is bbedit, because i assume dark dark magic
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2015-09-22T01:20:42Z pjb: At last!
2015-09-22T01:23:44Z pjb: psilisp: well, it seems I was wrong, and LABEL is neither in LISP 1.5 nor in BBN Lisp (for eliza).  It was in some other old lisp.
2015-09-22T01:24:16Z pjb: Well, I mean, it wasn't used in WANG or in eliza.
2015-09-22T01:25:56Z phf: was there an eliza implementation in PAIP?
2015-09-22T01:25:59Z phf can't recall
2015-09-22T01:27:53Z Zhivago: Well, eliza is a pretty trivial pattern match/transform program, so ...
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2015-09-22T01:37:44Z aeth: Zhivago: Why do you say eliza is a pretty trivial pattern match transform program so?
2015-09-22T01:38:00Z Zhivago: Because it is?
2015-09-22T01:38:09Z phf: kek
2015-09-22T01:38:10Z Zhivago: Much like yourself, it seems.
2015-09-22T01:38:12Z aeth: Can you elaborate on that?
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2015-09-22T01:38:17Z Bike: it's just regexes, dog.
2015-09-22T01:38:29Z Bike: like, seriously, look up any implementation and you'll see what zhivago means.
2015-09-22T01:38:51Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2015-09-22T01:39:05Z Bike: "I feel %1." "Why do you think you feel %1?"
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2015-09-22T01:40:59Z doesthiswork: aeth: I see what you're doing
2015-09-22T01:41:06Z aeth: Bike: Is it because do I think I feel %1 that you came to me?
2015-09-22T01:41:15Z Bike: very funny.
2015-09-22T01:41:38Z keen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2015-09-22T01:41:43Z phf: it's in chapter 5 of paip in case anybody is still wandering. i went and checked on account of this channel being utterly useless!
2015-09-22T01:41:51Z phf: *wondering
2015-09-22T01:42:15Z Zhivago: I think that you are undermining your point by reporting that in this channel.
2015-09-22T01:42:24Z aeth: There's also http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/play/doctor.el in Emacs Lisp.
2015-09-22T01:42:30Z aeth: Neither are Common Lisp.
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2015-09-22T01:42:51Z aeth: unless I parsed PAIP wrong
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2015-09-22T01:43:00Z aeth: oh I did
2015-09-22T01:43:04Z aeth: PAIP is the Norvig one
2015-09-22T01:43:22Z aeth: I hate acronyms, that's why I like lisp and its long names
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2015-09-22T01:44:01Z doesthiswork: ihatwillailn
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2015-09-22T01:45:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: awdchp
2015-09-22T01:45:16Z phf: Zhivago: i always lie!
2015-09-22T01:45:24Z doesthiswork: I'd never do that, swordfish is good enough for me
2015-09-22T01:45:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I prefer letmein
2015-09-22T01:46:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If it's good enough for everyone else, it's good enough for me.'
2015-09-22T01:47:06Z doesthiswork: more more cheery than letmeout
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2015-09-22T01:53:18Z aeth: I hate acronyms, they're evil and clearly require omniscience. Nevertheless, you misunderstood something.
2015-09-22T01:53:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: ihateacronyms
2015-09-22T01:54:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-22T01:54:50Z Zhivago: Most of them are probably initialisms rather than acronyms.
2015-09-22T01:56:12Z doesthiswork: the rules for acronyms are too complicated
2015-09-22T01:56:50Z doesthiswork: I learnt lisp so that I wouldn't have to worry about things like precedence
2015-09-22T01:57:34Z aeth: right, in Lisp it would be (acronyms (hate (i)))
2015-09-22T01:57:37Z phf: aeth: i agree acronyms are careless, and i usually class them with words like "app", but i think sometimes acronyms act as jargon. if paip had an animal on the cover, could probably as well be called "some animal book"
2015-09-22T01:58:22Z Zhivago: It could be the reticulated python book.
2015-09-22T02:00:13Z aeth: Has anyone ever read the green alien orbiting the purple planetoid book? Is it worth reading?
2015-09-22T02:01:28Z phf: this one is tricky since there are two LoL's
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2015-09-22T02:01:52Z aeth: (The funny part is I think anyone who has seen the cover will understand which book I am talking about.)
2015-09-22T02:02:47Z phf: incidentally i did a tech review for that one..
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2015-09-22T02:04:55Z doesthiswork: I'm So Meta Even This Acronym.
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2015-09-22T02:12:38Z jfe: is it bad practice to have more than one package in an ASDF system?
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2015-09-22T02:34:12Z jasom: jfe: not at all
2015-09-22T02:34:24Z jasom: jfe: in fact there is an entire style that has one package per source file in the system
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2015-09-22T02:45:35Z jfe: thanks.
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2015-09-22T02:52:54Z jfe: why is it that a call to (push) within the body of a function doesn’t affect its arguments?
2015-09-22T02:59:41Z loke: jfe: Can you be more specific?
2015-09-22T03:00:19Z Bike: something like (defun push-4 (list) (push 4 list)) (let ((x (list 3 2 1))) (push-4 x) x) => (3 2 1) i'm guessing.
2015-09-22T03:00:54Z jfe: (defun fn (L) (push :x L)) (setf L nil) (fn L) ; doesn’t push :x onto L
2015-09-22T03:01:01Z jfe: i.e. L will remain nil
2015-09-22T03:01:33Z loke: Bike: I was guessing that too, but I didn't want to waste my time answering thw wrong question.
2015-09-22T03:01:57Z Bike: that's because push affects lexical bindings. like, (push :x L) is pretty much (setf L (cons :x L)). it's just changing the binding of L in fn.
2015-09-22T03:02:15Z aeth: When I push I tend to use vector-push-extend on an adjustable vector.
2015-09-22T03:02:15Z loke: jfe: PUSH, when used with a plain variable, is equivalent to (setq var (cons value var))
2015-09-22T03:02:36Z loke: jfe: Now look at that equivalent and hopefully you understand why it behaves the way it does.
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2015-09-22T03:02:59Z jfe: loke: that’s what i suspected. how then how do i add an element to a list from a function?
2015-09-22T03:03:13Z jfe: s/how //
2015-09-22T03:03:15Z loke: jfe: You generally return the new list from the function
2015-09-22T03:03:35Z loke: jfe: Either that, or use a macro (PUSH happens to be a macro itself)
2015-09-22T03:04:21Z White_Flame: remember that there really isn't a "list" as far as the system is concerned, just cons cells being used as linked list cells
2015-09-22T03:04:58Z White_Flame: each variable simply points to one of them
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2015-09-22T03:05:13Z Zhivago: Much as C has no actual string type, CL has no actual list type. :)
2015-09-22T03:05:21Z White_Flame: however, in your specific example I wouldn't use "L" as both a function parameter name and a global variable name
2015-09-22T03:05:26Z White_Flame: that's likely a source of confusion
2015-09-22T03:07:01Z aeth: (defun push-4 (vec) (vector-push-extend 4 vec)) (let ((x (make-array 3 :element-type 'integer :fill-pointer 3 :initial-contents '(3 2 1) :adjustable t))) (push-4 x) x) ; #(3 2 1 4)
2015-09-22T03:07:06Z White_Flame: it's also the reason that global/special variables are (defvar *earmuffed*) with asterisks
2015-09-22T03:07:07Z aeth: If you just need a sequence, not a list in particular.
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2015-09-22T03:14:23Z aeth: Hmm... The cost of (coerce foo 'list) might be less than the cost of writing something fancy, at least for small vectors (not sure about how fast it grows)
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2015-09-22T04:34:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-22T04:34:45Z loke: Hello beach
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2015-09-22T04:39:26Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-09-22T04:39:36Z beach: drmeister: SBCL uses a modified version of PCL as its CLOS implementation.  The dispatch technique is still the same as that of PCL, though, as I recall, it was completely rewritten by Xof at some point.
2015-09-22T04:39:56Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-09-22T04:40:10Z beach: http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/publications/papers/Kiczales-Andreas-PCL/for-web.pdf
2015-09-22T04:40:17Z beach: I think that's the relevant paper.
2015-09-22T04:40:32Z drmeister: I've been doing a lot of single instruction stepping debugging the past couple of days and removing inefficiencies.
2015-09-22T04:41:33Z drmeister: I think I've converted all of the dynamic_cast's to integer range comparisons and I've eliminated the CONSing of APPLY through the use of the VaList (a wrapped/tagged C va_list)  structure.
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2015-09-22T04:42:16Z boogaloo: In Common Lisp (SBCL), this
2015-09-22T04:42:16Z boogaloo:  
2015-09-22T04:42:16Z boogaloo: (eval `(time (reduce #'+ ',(range (expt 2 12)))))
2015-09-22T04:42:16Z boogaloo:  
2015-09-22T04:42:19Z boogaloo: means that (range (expt 2 12)) is evaluated [it is evaluated to list (1 2 ... 2^12)], then (time...) starts measuring how long (and how much memory) it takes to sum numbers in the list using `reduce'. Right?
2015-09-22T04:42:21Z drmeister: I say "I think" because I haven't single stepped through an entire GF dispatch - I need to lay a brick on the enter key and go to bed or something.
2015-09-22T04:42:22Z boogaloo:  
2015-09-22T04:42:54Z drmeister: EVAL makes me shudder - every time I see it.
2015-09-22T04:43:25Z beach: clhs time
2015-09-22T04:43:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm
2015-09-22T04:43:43Z beach: boogaloo: ↑
2015-09-22T04:44:55Z beach: drmeister: What technique does Clasp use for generic dispatch?
2015-09-22T04:45:28Z boogaloo: Well, I could have guessed what is written in HyperSpec.
2015-09-22T04:45:40Z beach: boogaloo: Right.  TIME will not take into account the execution time of RANGE or EXPT.
2015-09-22T04:45:48Z drmeister: It converts the arguments into a specializer vector (classes and EQL objects), hashes it and looks it up in one big hash-table/cache.
2015-09-22T04:45:48Z boogaloo: My question is rather about the evaluation order.
2015-09-22T04:45:58Z boogaloo: Aha.
2015-09-22T04:46:09Z boogaloo: OK. It reports 424 240 cycles, and 0 [negligible] consed bytes.
2015-09-22T04:46:09Z boogaloo:  
2015-09-22T04:46:09Z boogaloo: To get familiar with the language, I wrote a version of reduce, and run it to sum the same numbers: (eval `(time (fold-eval + 0 ,(range (expt 2 12))))). It says 1275 cycles (and 0 bytes, as well).
2015-09-22T04:46:09Z boogaloo:  
2015-09-22T04:46:14Z boogaloo: How come it takes less cycles to sum numbers than the total amount of numbers? There's nothing parallel about fold-eval. Is it possible that (time ...) misses something?
2015-09-22T04:46:29Z boogaloo: i understand that time is approximate.
2015-09-22T04:46:37Z beach: "fewer".  Less stuff.  Fewer things.
2015-09-22T04:47:21Z drmeister: beach: As you know, if the effective method is not in the hash table then it does the normal CLOS stuff to build an effective method.  It's identical to the method that ECL uses and my timing suggests that they are about the same speed.
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2015-09-22T04:47:58Z boogaloo: I'm using it precisely `for tuning purposes'. :-) But this is a bit weird.
2015-09-22T04:48:44Z boogaloo: Should I maybe divide it by the number of threads, say?
2015-09-22T04:48:56Z boogaloo: *multiply, I mean
2015-09-22T04:49:30Z boogaloo: ...But again, there's nothing parallel about fold.
2015-09-22T04:49:32Z beach: drmeister: Now I am confused.  You are saying two things that I see as contradictory.  You said in #clasp that SBCL is "incredibly fast" and now you are saying that Clasp uses the same technique with comparable performance.  Yet you want to improve Clasp.
2015-09-22T04:50:17Z drmeister: No, Clasp uses the same approach as ECL.  Embedded Common Lisp.
2015-09-22T04:50:26Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2015-09-22T04:50:47Z beach: I am not quite awake yet.
2015-09-22T04:51:16Z boogaloo: beach: Right, `fewer'.
2015-09-22T04:51:22Z drmeister: And I'm falling asleep - I only had three hours last night and it's 1:00am and I'm wired again.
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2015-09-22T04:51:35Z beach: drmeister: What kind of hash table is it using?
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2015-09-22T04:52:12Z drmeister: It's a 64K element table and I forget what it's called...   an "open hash table"?
2015-09-22T04:52:33Z beach: And how is the hash code computed?
2015-09-22T04:52:52Z beach: Oh, wait.  Didn't we decide that the size is way to small?
2015-09-22T04:53:04Z beach: So that it has lots of collisions.
2015-09-22T04:53:12Z drmeister: Ah, some hash function I stole from ECL - I think I'm using the class pointer values.  I see in the paper you gave me they use special hash values.
2015-09-22T04:53:13Z beach: I remember that from a few months ago.
2015-09-22T04:53:33Z drmeister: I don't recall.   64K is too small?
2015-09-22T04:53:36Z beach: drmeister: You might take a collision at each search.
2015-09-22T04:53:52Z drmeister: I trust you implicitly - the hash table is too small darnit!
2015-09-22T04:54:13Z beach: drmeister: If class objects move, your hash seed may fail at each search.
2015-09-22T04:54:29Z beach: So you might do a linear search of the table.
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2015-09-22T04:54:49Z drmeister: Good point.   It only searches 20 elements and then gives up.
2015-09-22T04:55:02Z beach: Now that part is good.
2015-09-22T04:55:09Z beach: Because it should succeed before that.
2015-09-22T04:55:18Z beach: But it probably doesn't if its hash code changes dynamically.
2015-09-22T04:55:26Z beach: When the GC moves the class object.
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2015-09-22T04:55:32Z drmeister: Yeah 20
2015-09-22T04:56:05Z beach: Try inserting code to determine how well that technique succeeds.
2015-09-22T04:56:11Z drmeister: I should put some meters in there.
2015-09-22T04:56:12Z drmeister: Yeah.
2015-09-22T04:56:43Z beach: Also, table-based techniques seemed reasonable when that paper was written.  Not anymore.
2015-09-22T04:56:49Z drmeister: Now that I've eliminated some of the stupid stuff in the GF function invocation.
2015-09-22T04:56:59Z drmeister: The paper you just gave me?
2015-09-22T04:57:09Z beach: Yeah, the one about PCL generic dispatch.
2015-09-22T04:57:48Z beach: The SICL technique is faster because of how access time of memory hasn't kept up with processor speed.
2015-09-22T04:57:51Z drmeister: Classes shouldn't move too much.  With Boehm, not at all and with MPS they should be in the oldster pool.
2015-09-22T04:58:14Z beach: OK, then maybe it's just a question of too small a table.
2015-09-22T04:58:24Z drmeister: I look forward to using it.
2015-09-22T04:58:25Z beach: Open hashing requires the table to be fairly sparse.
2015-09-22T04:58:40Z drmeister: That's a simple fix.  What do you recommend?  I'll bump it and see
2015-09-22T04:58:54Z beach: Oh, say 10 times what you expect.
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2015-09-22T04:59:03Z beach: But measure first.
2015-09-22T04:59:07Z beach: That's what I recommend.
2015-09-22T04:59:43Z drmeister: How about this - tomorrow I'll put some things in there to count misses and collisions and a function that lets me dynamically resize it.
2015-09-22T05:00:00Z beach: Sounds like a good plan.
2015-09-22T05:01:13Z drmeister: The paper you gave me is what SBCL uses now?
2015-09-22T05:01:20Z beach: Yes.
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2015-09-22T05:03:13Z drmeister: Because it's blazingly fast
2015-09-22T05:03:29Z beach: If you say so. :)
2015-09-22T05:03:53Z beach: What do you call something that is twice as fast as "blazingly fast"?
2015-09-22T05:04:28Z Zhivago: pants blazingly fast.
2015-09-22T05:04:46Z beach: Thanks!
2015-09-22T05:05:11Z beach: drmeister: I guess you are saying "relative to what Clasp is observing now".
2015-09-22T05:05:20Z drmeister: Yep
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2015-09-22T05:05:44Z beach: Then you should definitely figure out why Clasp generic dispatch is so slow.
2015-09-22T05:05:50Z beach: There is no particular reason for that.
2015-09-22T05:06:30Z drmeister: Well first I'm looking for stupid stuff like dynamic cast and consing lists of arguments.
2015-09-22T05:06:34Z beach: Oh, one more thing: you need to figure out how it checks whether an instance is obsolete.
2015-09-22T05:07:09Z beach: drmeister: In the PCL technique and in the SICL technique it is automatic, i.e., part of the normal dispatch function.
2015-09-22T05:07:39Z beach: drmeister: And that is essential, because otherwise, you may have a costly check to make at every call to a generic function.
2015-09-22T05:07:48Z drmeister: Could instances be updated whenever the class is updated?  So that there are never obsolete instances?
2015-09-22T05:08:04Z beach: That would be very costly.
2015-09-22T05:08:11Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-09-22T05:08:19Z beach: The class would have to contain a (weak) pointer to each instance.
2015-09-22T05:08:27Z beach: Or, you could run the GC, I guess.
2015-09-22T05:08:28Z drmeister: I'll keep an eye out for it.   I haven't recognized anything
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2015-09-22T05:08:51Z drmeister: I better get to bed.
2015-09-22T05:08:53Z beach: It would also be very disruptive if you have lots of instances.
2015-09-22T05:09:00Z drmeister: Understood
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2015-09-22T05:17:29Z |3b|: boogaloo: in your 2nd test are you actually passing the value of the variable + instead of the function named by + as in what you pasted here?
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2015-09-22T05:23:42Z boogaloo: |3b| This question is a bit tough for me for now. :-\ I do get the correct answer, and this is exactly what I typed.
2015-09-22T05:24:02Z beach: |3b|: Good catch.
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2015-09-22T05:24:32Z boogaloo: It's a symbol, there's no #'.
2015-09-22T05:24:58Z |3b|: + as a variable (without the #') probably isn't doing what you want
2015-09-22T05:25:29Z boogaloo: But I do get the correct answer. :-)
2015-09-22T05:25:45Z |3b|: do you have any SAFETY declarations anywhere?
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2015-09-22T05:25:55Z boogaloo: No.
2015-09-22T05:26:00Z |3b|: and does #'+ behave any differently?
2015-09-22T05:26:23Z boogaloo: It's not supposed to be there: I don't quite understand it yet. It probably won't work.
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2015-09-22T05:26:37Z boogaloo: (defmacro fold-eval (f x list)
2015-09-22T05:26:37Z boogaloo:   (if (equal list nil)
2015-09-22T05:26:37Z boogaloo:       x
2015-09-22T05:26:37Z boogaloo:       (eval `(fold-eval ,f (,f ,x ,(car list)) ,(cdr list)))))
2015-09-22T05:26:59Z |3b|: ah, you calculate the sum at compile time
2015-09-22T05:27:01Z boogaloo: Could it be because of eval?
2015-09-22T05:27:18Z |3b|: no, it is because you calculate the result during macro expansion
2015-09-22T05:27:47Z |3b|: which happens before TIME is called, so doesn't get times
2015-09-22T05:27:57Z |3b|: *timed
2015-09-22T05:29:36Z |3b|: try (macroexpand `(fold-eval + 0 ,(range (expt 2 12))))
2015-09-22T05:30:09Z |3b|: you are just TIMEing the evaluation of 8386560, so you mostly get overhead of TIME itself
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2015-09-22T05:31:13Z beach: boogaloo: Why are you writing code like this?
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2015-09-22T05:32:10Z boogaloo: beach: I didn't find a better way to study.
2015-09-22T05:32:25Z beach: OK, then what is it that you are trying to learn?
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2015-09-22T05:32:35Z |3b|: and note that your macro won't work for "normal" use, for example if you pass it a variable containing the list, or want to pass it to another function or compose it
2015-09-22T05:32:39Z boogaloo: Yes, it is catched by macroexpand.
2015-09-22T05:32:48Z beach: "caught"
2015-09-22T05:33:03Z boogaloo: :-) Thanks.
2015-09-22T05:33:30Z boogaloo: Yes, I uderstand it probably won't work well with the rest of the language.
2015-09-22T05:33:56Z boogaloo: I'm trying to understand evaluation process, what happens when.
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2015-09-22T05:34:36Z beach: boogaloo: Code like this (using macros and EVAL) requires good knowledge of Common Lisp.  At the same time, you are doing things like (equal list nil) rather than (null list).  It looks like you need to master the base language first before attempting to write macros that have EVAL in them.
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2015-09-22T05:34:58Z beach: boogaloo: As an approximation, it is fair to say that every use of EVAL is probably wrong.
2015-09-22T05:35:25Z boogaloo: Well, I'm using CL for about three days.
2015-09-22T05:35:40Z beach: Then you should neither write macros nor every use EVAL.
2015-09-22T05:35:51Z beach: *ever
2015-09-22T05:36:04Z |3b|: macro expansion happens at some point during or before evaluation. Compilation requires macros to be expanded (and in fact that is the only requirement specified in the language). Some implementations compile (almost) everything by default in the process of evaluating it
2015-09-22T05:36:40Z boogaloo: By `compile' you mean, to machine code?
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2015-09-22T05:37:01Z beach: Yes.
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2015-09-22T05:37:06Z |3b|: by "compile" i mean "expand macros, and anything else that implementation happens to include in its definition of compile"
2015-09-22T05:37:13Z |3b|: but yes, usually "compile to machine code"
2015-09-22T05:37:25Z |3b|: in some cases, "compile to bytecode for some VM"
2015-09-22T05:38:11Z boogaloo: So my sum was calculated during compilation to bytecode or machine code.
2015-09-22T05:38:29Z |3b|: if you were using an implementation that compiles by default, yes
2015-09-22T05:38:59Z boogaloo: Thank you.
2015-09-22T05:39:01Z |3b|: (sbcl and ccl are common examples of implementations that compile by default)
2015-09-22T05:39:06Z boogaloo: SBCL, yes.
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2015-09-22T05:52:55Z boogaloo: `Then you should neither write macros nor every use EVAL.' --- Should I expect littleto no help here if I don't follow this advice?
2015-09-22T05:53:35Z |3b|: more that you should expect to run into problems, and have people question why you are writing things as macros if they usually wouldn't be
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2015-09-22T05:54:04Z |3b|: most things don't need to be macros, and making them macros will be more error prone and less flexible for no real benefit
2015-09-22T05:54:30Z |3b|: similarly most uses of eval are a sign of not understanding some better way to do things
2015-09-22T06:02:05Z boogaloo: I'm using CL for 3 days but I was reading about it for about 3 years, so these statements are familiar. :-) For now, I believe the most important thing to understand about CL is the evalution order. And in the absence of macros it seems quite clear.
2015-09-22T06:02:25Z boogaloo: *seems to be
2015-09-22T06:02:51Z |3b|: also important to distinguish READ time from evaluation and/or compilation
2015-09-22T06:03:43Z boogaloo: Every Lisp REPLs, and every Lisp REPLs from only one source?
2015-09-22T06:03:56Z |3b|: looking up symbols in packages, or processing of things like ` happens when the form is READ, which happens before compilation
2015-09-22T06:04:03Z |3b| doesn't understand the question
2015-09-22T06:04:26Z |3b|: CL evaluation is defined in terms of CL objects like lists and symbols, not in terms of sequences of characters
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2015-09-22T06:05:10Z |3b|: so it specifies the rules to evaluate a list containing the symbol + and the numbers 1 and 2, as opposed to the meaning of the sequence of characters "(+ 1 2)"
2015-09-22T06:05:35Z |3b|: (at least aside from the rule that strings (the lisp object) evaluate to themselves)
2015-09-22T06:06:00Z |3b|: it also specifies a process for turning a sequence of characters into lisp objects, implemented by the READ function
2015-09-22T06:07:01Z |3b|: most of READ's behavior is implemented by various "reader macros", and can be extended by the user
2015-09-22T06:07:12Z boogaloo: Why is it so important? When a large program starts, its parts don't interact with each other by means of strings anyway.
2015-09-22T06:07:55Z Shinmera: Because if the program code is made up of objects it means you can write code to manipulate the objects before they're evaluated.
2015-09-22T06:07:58Z |3b|: consider a form like (progn (asdf:load-system 'foo) 'foo:bar)
2015-09-22T06:09:01Z |3b|: if you don't understand the READ process, you might not understand why that errors even though the FOO system defines a package named FOO exporting the symbol BAR
2015-09-22T06:09:17Z boogaloo: Well, if this is syntactically correct, I see that quote is an example of irregular syntax.
2015-09-22T06:09:40Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-09-22T06:09:45Z |3b|: ok, (progn (asdf:load-system 'foo) (foo:bar)) if you don't like '
2015-09-22T06:10:03Z |3b|: assuming FOO defines a function FOO:BAR
2015-09-22T06:10:37Z White_Flame: even a file with "(defpackage :blarg)  'blarg:foo" will break the reader
2015-09-22T06:10:53Z |3b|: it is still an error, since it tries to intern the symbol FOO:BAR while the form is READ, which happens before the system is loaded
2015-09-22T06:11:15Z boogaloo: Horrible. :-) Programs should never take form of strings.
2015-09-22T06:11:22Z boogaloo: Only sexprs.
2015-09-22T06:11:23Z White_Flame: what do you think a file is?
2015-09-22T06:11:35Z boogaloo: We,, unfortunately, file is a stream of bytes.
2015-09-22T06:11:53Z |3b|: right, programs are sexprs, and those sexprs are serialized to disk (by hand unfortunately)
2015-09-22T06:11:56Z boogaloo: But it is very very unfortunate, IMO.
2015-09-22T06:12:01Z Shinmera: I'd say "fortunately". Editing files is very easy.
2015-09-22T06:12:15Z Shinmera: There've been many attempts at making more "visual" code and it's always horrible.
2015-09-22T06:12:15Z |3b|: so you need to understand the deserialization process, since you need to serialize them by hand
2015-09-22T06:12:23Z boogaloo: Yes.
2015-09-22T06:12:36Z boogaloo: That's what I will be missing: Mathematica's `READ'.
2015-09-22T06:13:02Z |3b|: Shinmera: i don't want visual, just smarter editor instead of trying to contort the language to be easier to serialize by hand
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2015-09-22T06:13:32Z Shinmera: |3b|: Smarter editors are always good.
2015-09-22T06:13:37Z boogaloo: Wolfram did a very nice thing: they put a layer of sexprs between human and interpreter.
2015-09-22T06:13:53Z boogaloo: So... no ASCII-driven developemnt.
2015-09-22T06:13:59Z boogaloo: Emacs is very close to it.
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2015-09-22T06:14:41Z boogaloo: Yes, I have to understand READ but I prefer to think this is not part of the language. ;-)
2015-09-22T06:14:54Z boogaloo: (It's too depressing.)
2015-09-22T06:15:00Z Shinmera: Jesus christ.
2015-09-22T06:15:19Z |3b|: well, for someone who likes EVAL and gratuitous macros, you should probably look into it, since you will end up having to replicate some of its behavior
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2015-09-22T06:46:40Z yvm: Why read-byte hangs on wait-until-fd-usable step when I try to read character device?
2015-09-22T06:46:45Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for attila_lendvail I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src/cmp/cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it
2015-09-22T06:46:45Z minion: memo for attila_lendvail I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on srccmpcmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20attila_lendvail%
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2015-09-22T06:47:41Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for attila_lendvail I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it
2015-09-22T06:47:41Z minion: memo for attila_lendvail I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20attila_lendvai
2015-09-22T06:47:48Z jackdaniel: wat
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2015-09-22T06:48:17Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for attila_lendvai I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it
2015-09-22T06:48:17Z minion: memo for attila_lendvai I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20attila_lendvai%
2015-09-22T06:48:33Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for attila_lendvai: I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it
2015-09-22T06:48:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-09-22T06:48:38Z jackdaniel: sorry guys for flood :|
2015-09-22T06:49:27Z |3b|: yvm: presumably it thinks there are no bytes available for you to READ
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2015-09-22T06:52:41Z yvm: Should I use gray streams or what?
2015-09-22T06:54:45Z yvm: Never mind.
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2015-09-22T07:21:04Z boogaloo: |3b| I feel the need to explain myself. I did write two other versions of fold; one of those seems to be quite efficient and idiomatic, on par with cl:reduce. I came here with this twisted example mostly by accident: it's a hybrid of the idiomatic version and another one, even more outworldly than this. :-)
2015-09-22T07:23:30Z |3b| has no objection to writing strange macros, but objects to not knowing whether or not they are strange :)
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2015-09-22T07:23:50Z |3b|: or not knowing why they shouldn't have been written or what better alternatives would be
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2015-09-22T07:24:31Z boogaloo: In the absence of mentor, the best way to improve one's skills, IMO, is to write naive implementations of simple or standard functions, compare performance, and study the corresponding source of the implementition. Since TIME was clearly missing something, I sort of freaked out.
2015-09-22T07:24:32Z |3b|: (for example a compiler macro might be a reasonable way of implementing the compile-time calculation effect of that macro, while still retaining the ability to work on variables or be passed to other functions)
2015-09-22T07:25:02Z |3b| likes debugging for that
2015-09-22T07:25:07Z boogaloo: *the corresponding source of *native* implementation
2015-09-22T07:25:38Z |3b|: you not only have code to read, you have code that exercises edge cases you wouldn't normally use
2015-09-22T07:25:46Z |3b|: hard part is finding something good to debug though
2015-09-22T07:26:32Z boogaloo: Actually, my short-term goal is to start with Cells as soon as possible but that requires learning CLOS, I guess. :-\
2015-09-22T07:26:46Z Zhivago: Only if you want to improve your profiling and optimizing skills.
2015-09-22T07:27:20Z boogaloo: You mean, Cells is unusable?
2015-09-22T07:27:25Z Zhivago: There are many other metrics by which you may wish to improve.
2015-09-22T07:27:33Z boogaloo: Ah.
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2015-09-22T08:28:15Z flip214: hmmm, why is a simple-base-string not a simple-vector, too? (so that I could use svref)
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2015-09-22T08:30:06Z Bike: simple vectors are (simple-array t), whereas base-strings are specialized to base-chars
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2015-09-22T08:39:04Z Shinmera: flip214: SVREF will most likely end up in an AREF anyway and that'll work on both.
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2015-09-22T08:42:27Z varjag: aref is the general case, svref is unlikely to end up there
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2015-09-22T08:43:16Z varjag: but they sure might share some code
2015-09-22T08:43:22Z Shinmera: SVREF is even defined as a call to AREF on SBCL f.e.
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2015-09-22T08:44:45Z varjag: interesting, because svref is faster than element specialized aref on sbcl
2015-09-22T08:45:01Z varjag: apparently faster than aref on simple-array of one dimension, even
2015-09-22T08:46:15Z varjag: Shinmera: https://github.com/sharplispers/cl-jpeg/pull/5
2015-09-22T08:46:18Z varjag: a relevant issue we face
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2015-09-22T08:49:26Z Shinmera: Can't say I can confirm. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpNdw==
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2015-09-22T08:50:46Z varjag: is there any difference with type declaration?
2015-09-22T08:51:19Z Shinmera: even if I (declare (type simple-array v)) aref is still faster.
2015-09-22T08:51:47Z flip214: I'm looking at http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/program.php?test=fasta&lang=sbcl&id=6
2015-09-22T08:51:49Z Shinmera: Though I'm quite sure SBCL was smart enough to figure out that type already.
2015-09-22T08:51:50Z varjag: (type (simple-vector *))
2015-09-22T08:51:55Z varjag: not simple-array
2015-09-22T08:52:00Z Shinmera: Ech, sorry.
2015-09-22T08:52:13Z flip214: using SCHAR instead of AREF and making NEXT-RANDOM inlined gives me 16% performance (7 to 6 seconds)
2015-09-22T08:52:19Z Shinmera: varjag: even with that -- still faster.
2015-09-22T08:52:27Z |3b|: use (simple-array type (*)) instead of (simple-array type *)
2015-09-22T08:52:29Z Shinmera: Quite consistently too I might add.
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2015-09-22T08:53:03Z |3b|: or (* *) etc as needed, or 1,2,etc if you prefer
2015-09-22T08:53:05Z Shinmera: Either way, the code is simple. I'm sure you can benchmark more yourself.
2015-09-22T08:53:20Z varjag: i'll look into that
2015-09-22T08:53:24Z |3b|: also make sure you aren't spending more time checking the array type than it saves
2015-09-22T08:53:28Z varjag: need to install sbcl here first
2015-09-22T08:54:14Z |3b|: or actual dimensions if you know it at compile time
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2015-09-22T08:54:16Z varjag: might as well try that on ccl and see though..
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2015-09-22T08:55:20Z |3b|: for writes, might also matter whether it can tell if the value fits
2015-09-22T08:55:27Z loke: SVREF is like AREF with the argument bein declared as simple-vector
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2015-09-22T08:56:22Z loke: So, if the argument isn't in fact a simple vector, the behaviour is underfined, which bit me once when I was using a third partly library that assumed that svref could be used on the arrays, and was was stupidly enough compiled with SAFETY 0.
2015-09-22T08:56:38Z Shinmera: Fun!
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2015-09-22T08:56:46Z loke: That caused SBCL to drop into LDB at some random times and it took me a while to figure out why.
2015-09-22T08:57:03Z loke: Shinmera: very fun.
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2015-09-22T08:57:31Z loke: people compiling code with SAFETY 0 should get some kind of punishment.
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2015-09-22T08:59:41Z Shinmera: Well at least on SBCL there's (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 1)
2015-09-22T09:00:09Z flip214: hmmm, (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:loop nil :report :graph) ....) gives me #<SB-SPROF::CALL-GRAPH 625 samples {100E7087A3}> ?
2015-09-22T09:00:18Z flip214: I thought :report should give a textual report already?
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2015-09-22T09:01:10Z Shinmera: flip214: That macro's been glitchy for me before. No idea why. sb-sprof:start/stop-profiling and sb-sprof:report work fine.
2015-09-22T09:01:11Z |3b|: if you use slime, it has a contrib for working with sprof that is much nicer than the raw output
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2015-09-22T09:03:44Z flip214: Shinmera: grrr. thanks for the hint, though!
2015-09-22T09:03:55Z flip214: |3b|: using swank, yes, but not slime ...
2015-09-22T09:04:06Z Shinmera: Don't forget to RESET between profiles.
2015-09-22T09:04:06Z flip214: but the contrib would be in swank anyway, right?
2015-09-22T09:05:54Z flip214: hmmm, macroexpanding the with-profiling just gives a block that has (SB-SPROF:REPORT :TYPE :GRAPH) at the end anyway!
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2015-09-22T09:07:06Z flip214: ah, (SB-SPROF:REPORT :TYPE :GRAPH) is broken and just gives the dump.
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2015-09-22T09:09:07Z |3b|: most of the benefit is in the UI side though, displaying the report nicely, letting you jump around in it or to source from it, etc
2015-09-22T09:10:26Z flip214: grrrrr, somebody put "#+sbcl (setq *standard-output*" in there...
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2015-09-22T09:33:46Z jackdaniel: sometimes you have to sweep one bug to introduce two brand new bugs instead :-D
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2015-09-22T09:36:51Z varjag: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155594
2015-09-22T09:37:03Z varjag: apparently the difference shows up only when passing the array around
2015-09-22T09:37:15Z varjag: this was ccl
2015-09-22T09:39:17Z varjag: the issue was reported for sbcl though
2015-09-22T09:40:32Z varjag: (there's vector bound in type specifier, but removing it doesn't do much)
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2015-09-22T09:52:35Z Shinmera: Interesting.
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2015-09-22T09:54:25Z Shinmera: Though, you don't have the type declaration in handle-aref. Does adding it help?
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2015-09-22T09:56:23Z Shinmera: I'll bbl. Lunch time.
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2015-09-22T10:19:24Z varjag: Shinmera: yes, declaring it simple-array makes it even
2015-09-22T10:20:56Z varjag: guess the compiler is able to deduce that if it occurs in same context
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2015-09-22T10:28:49Z resttime: Does an &optional argument in the function affect TCO in SBCL? (In this case it's the tail so you don't have to supply nil to the first call)
2015-09-22T10:28:52Z resttime: I'm checking the disassemble and I don't think it does but I'd like to be sure
2015-09-22T10:29:52Z resttime: Err and by "affect" I mean "prevents"
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2015-09-22T10:32:35Z resttime: A function that I wrote in particular that made me curious: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155598
2015-09-22T10:37:26Z Shinmera: varjag: Well yeah, it's type inference. A call is necessarily going to destroy that. You could inline the function if you want the inference to make a distinction.
2015-09-22T10:37:37Z Shinmera: *make a difference
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2015-09-22T10:40:58Z phf: resttime: afaiu sbcl makes hard guarantees that as long as function call is in a tail-recursive position, you get a tco, with function signature not playing any role in that
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2015-09-22T10:46:12Z resttime: phf, thanks I'm glad to know, I also checked out a disassemble with the function defined (debug 3) which I think the documentation says disables any TCO
2015-09-22T10:46:17Z resttime: looked pretty different
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2015-09-22T12:40:43Z smokeink: in "Let Over Lambda" the author says emacs is bad, and vi is, in his opinion, a better editor for lisp . i wonder how does he interact with the repl from vi ??
2015-09-22T12:41:29Z jackdaniel: smokeink: slimv is vim's slime I think
2015-09-22T12:41:35Z katco: smokeink: that strikes me as a really strange statement. the better editor for any language is one you're comfortable with
2015-09-22T12:43:54Z splittist: smokeink: cut and paste, I would imagine. LOL also puts a premium on being opinionated, which I find charming but rubs others the wrong way.
2015-09-22T12:44:18Z smokeink: and he talks like he is against plugins (and slimv is a plugin).. even so, slimv is not as complete as slime but that's a different matter
2015-09-22T12:44:52Z H4ns: smokeink: that's a taste of the quality of the book.
2015-09-22T12:45:23Z H4ns: smokeink: i hear it has all the crazy ideas in it, but it also has a lot of stuff that i'd rather not want to read.
2015-09-22T12:45:34Z smokeink: the book is good, i finished reading it
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2015-09-22T12:45:57Z smokeink: he presents a lot of interesting techniques in the book
2015-09-22T12:46:29Z smokeink: just in the last chapter he made this statement about emacs and vi, that made me wonder how the hack does he type sexps in vi , without plugins, and how does he interact with the repl
2015-09-22T12:46:55Z H4ns: you should ask him
2015-09-22T12:48:18Z phf: smokeink: you're only advised to use this book, if you understand why it's bad. but if you think that it's good, then the advice therein will only hurt your ability to write good common lisp code
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2015-09-22T12:51:47Z phf: i'm pretty sure that the standard approach to doing repl development in less sophisticated environments, is to copy/paste blocks of code with mouse. (the process can be sped up a bit by creating a macro that would copy out chunks of code using pbcopy/xsel)
2015-09-22T12:52:33Z phadthai: reloading files also works well with code designed to be safely reloaded
2015-09-22T12:52:39Z phf: rob warnock has some articles about his nvi based setup, http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/ can search "nvi", "vim" etc. here
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2015-09-22T12:54:21Z smokeink: yeah the author said he uses nvi
2015-09-22T12:55:13Z phf: phadthai: oh, you're right, python scrambled my brain (i do python dev using a combination of ipython and copy/pasting chunks out of editor, which tends to blow pythonistas' minds)
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2015-09-22T12:56:32Z varjag: yep think i stopped reading it on the vi passage i think
2015-09-22T12:56:49Z varjag: could well be moon landing denial in the next chapter
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2015-09-22T12:57:52Z katco: varjag: hey, rocket fuel can't melt moon beams... or something.
2015-09-22T12:58:31Z phadthai: haha
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2015-09-22T15:13:15Z jackdaniel: .
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2015-09-22T15:17:19Z phadthai: hello
2015-09-22T15:17:45Z phadthai: jackdaniel: I saw your merge request but will be unable to review for several more hours
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2015-09-22T15:17:54Z jackdaniel: sure, np
2015-09-22T15:18:03Z phadthai: cool
2015-09-22T15:18:04Z jackdaniel: I'm doublechecking things now
2015-09-22T15:18:22Z jackdaniel: and looking for workaround to not use uint32_t (that would introduce C99 hard dep)
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2015-09-22T15:18:45Z phadthai: hmm ok
2015-09-22T15:19:00Z jackdaniel: yeah, I think I've found it :-)
2015-09-22T15:19:01Z phadthai: there might be equivalent typedefs in the existing source
2015-09-22T15:19:06Z phadthai: cool
2015-09-22T15:19:26Z jackdaniel: yes, I've checked it, we don't have ecl_uint32_t if uint32_t isn't available on platform/compiler
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2015-09-22T15:21:10Z jackdaniel: or not
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2015-09-22T15:21:21Z jackdaniel: (that is it seems I haven't found it)
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2015-09-22T15:22:39Z phadthai: hmm I wonder how we could eventually survey if anyone uses a pre-c99 compiler on some arch, or intends to for some reason
2015-09-22T15:23:09Z phadthai: maybe mailing list plus the cl-pro one and #lisp heh
2015-09-22T15:23:19Z jackdaniel: Visual Studio before2013 doesn't support these
2015-09-22T15:23:27Z phadthai: hmm ok
2015-09-22T15:23:31Z phadthai: is it still common?
2015-09-22T15:23:44Z jackdaniel: but it's not the problem I think since ECL builds on 2013
2015-09-22T15:23:57Z phadthai: and is cygwin or mingw a good substitute perhaps for them
2015-09-22T15:24:22Z phadthai: I mean so we eventually could officially support C99 and clean up old C89 code
2015-09-22T15:24:30Z jackdaniel: I believe they are until somebody wants to keep the whole thing lgpl or link with other windows apps as dll
2015-09-22T15:24:48Z phadthai: ah ok
2015-09-22T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: cygwin is gpl
2015-09-22T15:25:11Z jackdaniel: mingw as well I think (not sure though)
2015-09-22T15:25:38Z phadthai: mingw has exception clause I think and doesn't require a special userland
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2015-09-22T15:26:19Z jackdaniel: anyway it's a good idea
2015-09-22T15:26:25Z phadthai: I've used it as cross-compiler at times to build stuff without needing the msvs runtime lib which wasn't installed by default on some windows versions oddly
2015-09-22T15:26:31Z jackdaniel: that will simplify code like alot
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2015-09-22T15:27:15Z phadthai: there's also nice syntax for structure initialization where the field can be given instead of a comment on which field it is etc
2015-09-22T15:27:25Z phadthai: and yes those awesome already defined typedefs for us
2015-09-22T15:28:00Z phadthai: (maintained by others, vs our own typedefs heh)
2015-09-22T15:28:36Z phadthai: sorry bbl
2015-09-22T15:29:10Z jackdaniel: see you \o
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2015-09-22T15:44:54Z phadthai: "unavoidable perl dependency scandal!"
2015-09-22T15:45:25Z phadthai: (just making easier boring tasks with some humor)
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2015-09-22T16:30:25Z katco: anyone attending http://www.thestrangeloop.com/ ?
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2015-09-22T16:35:58Z jasom: did LISP 1.5 run on the IBM 704?
2015-09-22T16:36:16Z jasom is looking at the manual and it had quite a lot of symbols for a 4kword machine
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2015-09-22T16:43:04Z pjb: The first versions of LISP were developed and ran there. I'm not sure about the 1962 version, indeed, it looks bigger.
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2015-09-22T16:44:37Z pjb: jasom: it seems it could use the DRUM as RAM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704#Memory_and_peripherals
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2015-09-22T16:54:07Z jasom: Drum had either 8 or 16 kwords
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2015-09-22T16:54:35Z jasom: Both capacities seem to have been called the 733
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2015-09-22T16:58:45Z jasom: pjb: also it looks like 1.5 may have been on the 709 or 7094 which had 32kWords of core
2015-09-22T16:59:10Z pjb: Yes, this one had more RAM.
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2015-09-22T16:59:47Z jasom: crazy that it had almost as much RAM as the first computer I used in the 80s (256k bytes)
2015-09-22T17:00:10Z jasom: okay, did the math, it's more like about half as much RAM
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2015-09-22T17:01:28Z pjb: The first computer I used had 4Kw (16-bit) for 9 users.
2015-09-22T17:01:59Z pjb: The system used 2Kw, and the other 2Kw were swapped in/out on the hard disk for each user.
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2015-09-22T17:05:02Z jasom: I looked up some pdp-10 specs and the kl-10 beats my first pc compatible (a 12.5MHz 80286) by just about every performance metric, but 10 years earlier and at about 1000x the inflation adjusted cost.
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2015-09-22T17:12:35Z zacts: hi
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2015-09-22T17:17:35Z akkad: one was meant for real work.:P
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2015-09-22T17:18:31Z nyef: akkad: The debatable bit is which one. d-:
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2015-09-22T17:19:20Z akkad: had xenix on the 286s. it sucked pretty bad.
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2015-09-22T18:11:36Z sjl: how commonly-used is the fset library these days?
2015-09-22T18:12:17Z sjl: I'm implementing nrepl for common lisp and it's mostly going smoothly, but I'm starting to hit a wall where the clojure implementation doesn't really map cleanly to the CL one because of the data structure mismatch
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2015-09-22T18:12:39Z Xach: sjl: I have download stats. hang on.
2015-09-22T18:12:51Z sjl: and I think it'd be a lot easier if I switched to fset's data structures, but if fset is weird and not often used by CL people, it would discourage people from making middleware
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2015-09-22T18:13:04Z sjl: though to be fair I'm probably the only one crazy enough to ever use this thing anyway, lol
2015-09-22T18:13:31Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: do you keep track of direct vs. indirect downloads ?
2015-09-22T18:13:35Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: no
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2015-09-22T18:15:15Z Xach: hmm. i guess these numbers aren't too useful.
2015-09-22T18:15:21Z Xach must look up percentile computation
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2015-09-22T18:15:25Z jasom: sjl: I would say it is used, but not popular.  I don't think anyone would be annoyed by you using it to represent clojure types, which they are clearly a better mapping to than anything built into lisp
2015-09-22T18:16:14Z sjl: yeah, I'm having trouble dealing with CL hashmaps for the way nrepl needs to use them (specifically for its session middleware)
2015-09-22T18:16:17Z sjl: ok cool, thanks
2015-09-22T18:16:30Z Xach: does folio do the same kind of thing?
2015-09-22T18:16:33Z jasom: sjl: if you don't need functional removal, then using plists or alists could be an option too
2015-09-22T18:16:55Z Xach: well, fset is 4x more popular than fset, so
2015-09-22T18:17:08Z jasom: Xach: folio depends on fset
2015-09-22T18:17:15Z Xach: oh
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2015-09-22T18:20:14Z sjl: Hmm I have about 30m before I need to go to class... I wonder if I can plug in fset that quickly, heh
2015-09-22T18:20:31Z jasom: sjl: both plists and alists support functional insertion and replacement, but have O(n) lookup
2015-09-22T18:20:52Z sjl: jasom: yeah I also need something like "create a new, shallow copy of this map for a separate session"
2015-09-22T18:21:00Z sjl: (to implement the "clone session" op)
2015-09-22T18:21:13Z sjl: which is probably gonna end up being too much trouble
2015-09-22T18:21:35Z jasom: hmm, shallow copy is the same as deep copy if all of your items stored are immutable
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2015-09-22T18:21:55Z sjl: yeah, but some are not
2015-09-22T18:22:05Z jasom: ah
2015-09-22T18:22:14Z jasom knows nothing about the nrepl interface
2015-09-22T18:22:15Z sjl: basically an nrepl session has e.g.: "out" -> an in-memory flexi-stream used for capturing standard-out
2015-09-22T18:22:46Z sjl: which also has a thread running somewhere that pulls data off the stream and sends it back over the network to the client
2015-09-22T18:23:00Z sjl: so it's a weird mess of immutability and mutable stuff
2015-09-22T18:24:51Z jasom: eeeew
2015-09-22T18:25:28Z jasom: for me the whole point of immutability is so that I don't have to worry about things like data races and shallow vs. deep copies
2015-09-22T18:25:57Z sjl: yeah, but when you're writing something that needs to capture standard out/in, *something* has to be mutable
2015-09-22T18:26:59Z jasom: sjl: yes, and hopefully you limit that to a small portion of the code
2015-09-22T18:27:05Z sjl: yep
2015-09-22T18:27:10Z sjl: that's the goal
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2015-09-22T19:48:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: i'm curious about why one would want nrepl rather than swank?
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2015-09-22T20:50:40Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: in the case of clojure because they could control protocol changes so it wouldn't break their swank client. They also have a middleware architecture(?) to allow 3rd party extensions
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2015-09-22T22:28:11Z phoe_krk: I'm writing a thing with usocket. I can connect to the remote host, which is basically a form of telnet, and I want first to print everything it gives me, then send something to it, and then read whatever else it sends me in response.
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2015-09-22T22:28:57Z phoe_krk: the problem I have: (read-line stream nil) hangs instead of returning nil when the server finishes sending the first portion of data. is there a way for it to return instead of waiting for more?
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2015-09-22T22:31:59Z DeadTrickster: are you sure server actually send line endings?
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2015-09-22T22:32:35Z phf: phoe_krk: you can check stream before reading from it as to whether or not it will block
2015-09-22T22:32:40Z phf: by doing (listen (usocket:socket-stream your-socket))
2015-09-22T22:33:00Z phoe_krk: phf: thanks, googling it now
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2015-09-22T22:34:37Z phf: generally there's no way to know "when the server finishes sending", without higher level coordination. all you can ask is whether or not there's an input ready on socket
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2015-09-22T22:34:43Z drmeister: The CLHS says:  copy-readtable &optional from-readtable to-readtable => readtable
2015-09-22T22:34:54Z drmeister: And:  from-readtable---a readtable designator. The default is the current readtable.
2015-09-22T22:34:57Z phoe_krk: phf: yes, I want that
2015-09-22T22:35:19Z drmeister: So (copy-readtable nil) should do what?     Copy the current readtable in *readtable*?
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2015-09-22T22:36:30Z phf: phoe_krk: you use that string i posted above, (listen (usocket:socket-stream your-socket)). it "Returns true if there is a character immediately available from input-stream; otherwise, returns false."
2015-09-22T22:36:46Z phoe_krk: so it's a predicate
2015-09-22T22:36:51Z phoe_krk: if yes, then read-line
2015-09-22T22:36:52Z phf: yes :)
2015-09-22T22:37:06Z phoe_krk: if no, then do other stuff, perhaps return from the function
2015-09-22T22:37:07Z phoe_krk: thanks
2015-09-22T22:37:11Z DeadTrickster: phoe_krk, just use fd_isset
2015-09-22T22:37:18Z phoe_krk: fd_isset, googling
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2015-09-22T22:37:46Z phf: wtf
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2015-09-22T22:38:01Z phoe_krk: sounds like C
2015-09-22T22:38:38Z DeadTrickster: phoe_krk, yes this is more low-level
2015-09-22T22:39:00Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: thanks, maybe I'll remember that
2015-09-22T22:39:28Z phf: phoe_krk: in any case, listen works, but note that read-line might still block if there's no newline available in the stream, i.e. the connection is hanging
2015-09-22T22:39:37Z phf: e.g. rather
2015-09-22T22:40:41Z phoe_krk: yes, got it
2015-09-22T22:41:46Z phoe_krk: damn, I just realized that what I want to write is easily describable in Perl
2015-09-22T22:41:52Z phoe_krk: so it has to be describable in Lisp
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2015-09-22T22:50:32Z jasom: phoe_krk: read-line will return as soon as you receive a newline from the remote host
2015-09-22T22:50:58Z phoe_krk: jasom: I got my response, I need to use listen on the socket-stream
2015-09-22T22:51:08Z phoe_krk: it quits properly now
2015-09-22T22:51:16Z phoe_krk: now to grasp how to send data the other way
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2015-09-22T23:39:35Z jasom: phoe_krk: I fail to see how listen helps here
2015-09-22T23:40:23Z phoe_krk: jasom: (if (listen (socket-stream)) (read-line socket-stream) (quit-or-something))
2015-09-22T23:40:44Z jasom: phoe_krk: that looks very race-like to me
2015-09-22T23:40:52Z jasom: phoe_krk: what if the server is a bit slow at sending the line?
2015-09-22T23:41:02Z phoe_krk: jasom: of course it is race-y, but it works for a PoC
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2015-09-22T23:41:21Z phoe_krk: jasom: I've connected to the server, now I'm implementing some actual parsing on that
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2015-09-22T23:41:42Z phoe_krk: jasom: and basing what to send and when on when the server sends stuff
2015-09-22T23:42:02Z jasom: ah
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2015-09-22T23:59:14Z phoe_krk: what's an easy way to defparameter a CRLF?
2015-09-22T23:59:30Z phoe_krk: my thought is, I can (format t "~A" newline) if newline is a CRLF.
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2015-09-23T00:06:26Z phf: phoe_krk: you can do (concatenate 'string (list #\cr #\lf)), to get a "<cr><lf>" string, but a better option might be to wrap your socket stream in a flexi-stream and explicitly specify external format and newline convention
2015-09-23T00:07:11Z phoe_krk: googling up flexi streams now
2015-09-23T00:08:38Z phoe_krk: phf: too complicated for me now :P it's 2 AM for me
2015-09-23T00:08:43Z phf: hehe, k
2015-09-23T00:08:45Z phoe_krk: phf: thanks, I'll poke it tomorrow
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2015-09-23T00:09:53Z phf: phoe_krk: an example to meditate on might be (flex:with-output-to-sequence (stream) (let ((wrapper (flex:make-flexi-stream stream :external-format '(:utf-16 :eol-style :crlf)))) (format wrapper "test~%")))
2015-09-23T00:10:05Z phf: which returns #(0 116 0 101 0 115 0 116 0 13 0 10)
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2015-09-23T00:10:54Z phoe_krk: which is an UTF-8 representation of testCRLF
2015-09-23T00:10:57Z phoe_krk: nice
2015-09-23T00:11:18Z phf: utf-16 representation of "test<newline>" rather
2015-09-23T00:11:29Z phoe_krk: oh, wait
2015-09-23T00:11:30Z phoe_krk: right
2015-09-23T00:11:35Z phoe_krk: utf-16
2015-09-23T00:11:38Z phf: note the extra zeros around 13 and 10
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2015-09-23T00:13:17Z phf: the advantage is that you can still write your printer without having to make it explicit that underlying stream expects CRLF, so something like terpri works, instead of more cumbersome (write-string newline ...)
2015-09-23T00:15:15Z phf: or for that matter (pprint object stream) which is going to add its own newlines, which will otherwise not follow your convention
2015-09-23T00:15:59Z phoe_krk: so essentially the rest of the application doesn't need any changes: I put the wrapper just where I would put my stream in, right?
2015-09-23T00:16:09Z phf: yes
2015-09-23T00:16:09Z phoe_krk: s/stream in/stream/g
2015-09-23T00:16:17Z phoe_krk: okay, that's useful now
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2015-09-23T03:11:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-23T03:16:53Z yvm: Why sb-posix:ioctl accepts request value (second arg) as (signed 32)? Here is a thread on sbcl-devel list dated 2003-05: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/9285643/
2015-09-23T03:17:00Z yvm: It looks strange to me.
2015-09-23T03:17:15Z yvm: >OSS_GETVERSION and about half of the SNDCTL_DSP_* commands are negative when interpreted as a signed integer.
2015-09-23T03:17:47Z yvm: Of course they'll be signed integers if they are interpreted as signed integers.
2015-09-23T03:18:25Z yvm: But why changing sb-posix:ioctl's argument type?
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2015-09-23T03:22:01Z Bike: ioctl takes signed ints according to my man pages
2015-09-23T03:25:02Z yvm: According to my int ioctl(int d, unsigned long request, ...);
2015-09-23T03:26:42Z Bike: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/ioctl.html
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2015-09-23T03:33:03Z phadthai: hmm opengroup would have ignored prior implementations I guess
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2015-09-23T04:55:23Z Fare: Grrr.
2015-09-23T04:55:37Z Fare: Can I expect libtool to be installed on every Unix development system?
2015-09-23T04:55:52Z Fare wondering what to do about monolithic-lib-op
2015-09-23T04:56:38Z Fare: link libraries together? Gather all their recursive objects and link them individual objects into a .o ?
2015-09-23T04:57:02Z Fare: nah, linking the .a with libtool sounds like a nicer abstraction, so you can deliver a library as a .a
2015-09-23T04:57:18Z Fare: is it OK to suppose libtool is available? I will, for now.
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2015-09-23T05:09:19Z beach: Fare: I like the latest chapter of http://ngnghm.github.io/
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2015-09-23T05:17:33Z brucem: Fare: libtool is an abomination.
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2015-09-23T05:19:56Z beach: Fare: I was recently told (here, in fact) about address-space layout randomization (ASLR), and I realize that it is very related to the subject of your essays.
2015-09-23T05:20:06Z beach: You take an operating system in which application code as full access to the stack.  Then you program applications using a programming language that does not check array bounds by default and that has arbitrary pointer arithmetic.
2015-09-23T05:20:09Z beach: The result is a typical yahoo computing system.  Then because of the huge security holes in it, you patch it with ASLR.  Perhaps this insight will give you inspiration for a future chapter.
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2015-09-23T05:21:09Z kristof: "yahoo computing system"
2015-09-23T05:21:45Z phadthai: of course aslr should not be considered a fix, but it's indeed one of the popular mitigation options
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2015-09-23T05:26:25Z Fare: beach: ASLR = double-yahoo trying to yahoo the yahooing into not working?
2015-09-23T05:26:35Z beach: kristof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo_%28Gulliver's_Travels%29
2015-09-23T05:26:54Z Fare: Maybe with a randomized 256-bit address space...
2015-09-23T05:27:24Z beach: Fare: Something like that.  I was so disgusted when I learned about it, it took me days to recover.  Then it increased my motivation to work on LispOS.
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2015-09-23T05:27:41Z Fare: beach: we need linear types, as in Rust.
2015-09-23T05:27:52Z beach: I'll let you work on that.
2015-09-23T05:27:55Z Fare: ok
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2015-09-23T05:28:09Z beach: Anyway, I really like your essays.
2015-09-23T05:28:10Z Fare: I'm in Saint Louis for @strangeloop_stl
2015-09-23T05:28:13Z Fare: thanks a lot!
2015-09-23T05:28:26Z Fare: I know it's for a small public, but I'm glad you're part of it!
2015-09-23T05:28:53Z beach: Fare: I was told by someone who shall remain anonymous that your sentences are sometimes too complicated.
2015-09-23T05:28:54Z Fare: I haven't started thinking about the next chapter
2015-09-23T05:29:09Z Fare: BTW, if you want to write an invited chapter or interlude, you're most welcome.
2015-09-23T05:29:10Z beach: Maybe something you picked up from the French.
2015-09-23T05:29:17Z Fare: beach: noted.
2015-09-23T05:29:28Z beach: OK, I'll definitely think about it.
2015-09-23T05:29:38Z Fare: beach: that someone should have seen the sentences I used to write before I was told to break them down!
2015-09-23T05:29:39Z beach: Do you also take corrections/improvements to existing chapters?
2015-09-23T05:29:48Z beach: heh!
2015-09-23T05:30:09Z Fare: but yeah, I also welcome specific instances where I still failed to break them down enough.
2015-09-23T05:30:29Z Fare: YES, I often fix old chapters to make them less unreadable.
2015-09-23T05:30:42Z beach: OK.  I'll keep that in mind when I read the existing chapters again.  I often go back and read them over.
2015-09-23T05:30:53Z Fare: wow. Thanks!
2015-09-23T05:31:26Z Fare: ok, if not libtool, what shall I use to link N static libraries into one?
2015-09-23T05:31:56Z Fare: create a GNU ar link script, use it? Is it portable to BSD?
2015-09-23T05:32:06Z Fare: (and MockASS?)
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2015-09-23T05:33:22Z Fare: pjb, even without code modification, can you make a quick release of clisp at some point with an updated ASDF ?
2015-09-23T05:34:22Z Fare: it's embarrassing and a pain to support that CLISP comes bundled with an old development version of ASDF, rather than a recent stable release.
2015-09-23T05:35:05Z kristof: pjb is the maintainer of clisp?
2015-09-23T05:37:50Z Fare: the maybe future maintainer
2015-09-23T05:38:02Z Fare: he volunteered, but declared not having time right now, either.
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2015-09-23T05:50:42Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-09-23T05:56:45Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-09-23T05:59:05Z Fare: ok, well, I can't get libtool to work according to its man page. Sigh.
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2015-09-23T06:13:53Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-09-23T06:31:57Z Fare: I really don't understand libtool
2015-09-23T06:32:13Z Fare: jackdaniel: how does ECL link several .a's into one?
2015-09-23T06:32:33Z Fare: jackdaniel, I just filed a bug to drive you crazy
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2015-09-23T06:33:44Z jackdaniel: Fare: already answered it :p
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2015-09-23T06:34:08Z jackdaniel: and I've got prototype of the fix, if you mind checking it while it's new it would be great
2015-09-23T06:34:45Z Fare: jackdaniel, dammit, you're fast.
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2015-09-23T06:34:56Z Fare: it's in the develop branch?
2015-09-23T06:35:22Z jackdaniel: nope, as a comment
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2015-09-23T06:35:49Z jackdaniel: well, accident you made this issue when I entered gitlab
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2015-09-23T06:36:40Z Fare: recompiling ECL
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2015-09-23T06:37:09Z Fare: jackdaniel, can you help other lisp implementations by revealing your secret recipe to link multiple .a files into one/
2015-09-23T06:38:04Z jackdaniel: I'll check it
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2015-09-23T06:38:54Z jackdaniel: if you talk about bundled fasls afair it were concatenating o objects
2015-09-23T06:39:02Z jackdaniel: *.o
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2015-09-23T06:40:02Z Fare: I'm jealous of monolithic-lib-op on ECL
2015-09-23T06:40:14Z Fare: can you tell me how it's working?
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2015-09-23T06:41:01Z jackdaniel: Fare: I could grok it if you consider it important for you, but not before friday
2015-09-23T06:42:01Z Fare: thanks
2015-09-23T06:42:23Z Fare: well, I don't know how important it is
2015-09-23T06:42:34Z Fare: I can see ugly workarounds to not knowing how to do that
2015-09-23T06:42:59Z Fare: and/or a hell of #+freebsd #+netbsd #+darwin #+mingw... variants
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2015-09-23T06:46:44Z josteink: sooo
2015-09-23T06:46:51Z josteink: is it just me just now paying attention to my wall
2015-09-23T06:47:04Z josteink: or has DCC noise/phishing attempts just started happening regular in here?
2015-09-23T06:47:49Z p_l: josteink: I guess there's a resurgence
2015-09-23T06:49:33Z Fare tries ar rcsDT
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2015-09-23T06:55:28Z josteink: meh
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2015-09-23T07:08:38Z jackdaniel: Fare: ok, pushed to develop branch. When do you plan 3.1.6 ASDF release?
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2015-09-23T07:30:48Z Fare: jackdaniel, I'm not doing releases anymore
2015-09-23T07:30:50Z Fare: robert is
2015-09-23T07:31:16Z Fare: what about *load-system-operation* -- should it be load-op or load-bundle-op ?
2015-09-23T07:31:19Z jackdaniel: by "you" I mean ASDF development team
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2015-09-23T07:31:51Z Fare: hopefully end of week
2015-09-23T07:31:53Z jackdaniel: I've answered to question in mail before entering IRC - I'm in favor of using load-bundle-op
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2015-09-23T07:32:24Z Fare: ok
2015-09-23T07:32:29Z Fare: you're too fast for me, man
2015-09-23T07:32:45Z jackdaniel: I'm fast in the morning - speed drops over the day
2015-09-23T07:32:53Z jackdaniel: on evening I'm only capable of drinking a beer ;)
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2015-09-23T07:33:04Z jackdaniel: or wine
2015-09-23T07:33:12Z Fare: static functions don't have to be known to anyone but the linker
2015-09-23T07:33:25Z Fare: you don't call them -- the linker calls them for you
2015-09-23T07:33:42Z Fare: that's how C++ gets its static constructors done
2015-09-23T07:33:45Z jackdaniel: yes, but we need to attach some data from the module to our root
2015-09-23T07:33:54Z jackdaniel: how do we get it?
2015-09-23T07:34:01Z Fare: can't the function do that?
2015-09-23T07:34:08Z Fare: how does MKCL do it?
2015-09-23T07:34:23Z Fare: I don't understand what data you need to attach
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2015-09-23T07:34:46Z Fare: but whatever you want to do can be done in the static function called by the linker
2015-09-23T07:34:47Z jackdaniel: idk how they do that - I think it is possible to redesign it that way but can't think of any easy solution
2015-09-23T07:34:55Z Fare: I send a proof of concept a few weeks ago
2015-09-23T07:35:02Z Fare: sen
2015-09-23T07:35:03Z Fare: sent
2015-09-23T07:35:25Z jackdaniel: could you link it?
2015-09-23T07:35:34Z Fare: yes
2015-09-23T07:35:38Z Fare: it just worked for me
2015-09-23T07:36:18Z Fare finds that more magic is required to successfully build a sbcl linkkit and stops for tonight
2015-09-23T07:36:52Z jackdaniel: current state is that we have root in ECL, and a leaf node in module - we have to attach this node to our root so either module knows address of the root or ECL knows address of the node
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2015-09-23T07:38:08Z jackdaniel: and lurking on the mkcl it does the same magic
2015-09-23T07:38:38Z jackdaniel: that is it has initialization functions which names are read from tags
2015-09-23T07:38:56Z jackdaniel: I won't investigate mkcl further because it has incompat license and I might "steal" something accidently ;-)
2015-09-23T07:39:55Z jackdaniel: and comment from appropriate block in MKCL: IMPORTANT: Notice how the modules are linked to the parent forming a circular chain. This disables the garbage collection of the library until _ALL_ functions in all modules are unlinked.
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2015-09-23T07:55:24Z Fare: thanks
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2015-09-23T07:58:26Z jackdaniel: lurking it's history though makes it clear that my changes to ECL are incorporated in MKCL - I've written a mail to the maintainer to ask about exclusive LGPLv2 license for ECL
2015-09-23T07:59:31Z Vityok: it is sad that instead of synergy there is fragmentation of efforts...
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2015-09-23T09:22:35Z joncol: Beginner question: I'm playing around with cl-dbi, and there's a macro called `with-connection` that I use like this: (dbi:with-connection (conn :postgres :database-name "mydb" :username "jco" :password "jco")... But how can I avoid having to repeat the name of the table/user etc? I've tried (defvar *conn-options* ...), but I don't know how to apply (with-connection) to this, since it's a macro... Does this make sense?
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2015-09-23T09:26:12Z schoppenhauer: joncol: I would assume that for security reasons some strings inside the actual access code must be constant-p. but I wouldn't expect this macro to be. why don't you just try it?
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2015-09-23T09:27:23Z joncol: schoppenhauer: the problem is the first parameter to the macro, "conn". This names a symbol that I can use inside the (with-connection)-scope.
2015-09-23T09:27:48Z joncol: But I cannot add that to my *conn-options* global, since it's undefined.
2015-09-23T09:27:54Z Shinmera: joncol: You have to write your own macro.
2015-09-23T09:28:09Z joncol: Oh, ok. I'll have to look that up.
2015-09-23T09:28:23Z Shinmera: joncol: M-. on with-connection will jump you to its source
2015-09-23T09:28:26Z Shinmera: It's a very simple macro.
2015-09-23T09:28:54Z Shinmera: You should be able to figure out how to replace the rest part to instead use your variable.
2015-09-23T09:29:20Z Shinmera: Though if you're a beginner, better paste us your new macro before using it so we can give you potential improvement suggestions.
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2015-09-23T09:31:56Z joncol: Shinmera: what command do you have M-. bound to? helm-gtags-dwim? Do I have to generate tags for the cl-dbi package?
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2015-09-23T09:32:15Z Shinmera: Uh, no. Slime should grab it by default.
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2015-09-23T09:32:49Z Shinmera: It runs slime-edit-definition.
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2015-09-23T09:58:11Z drmeister: Hello
2015-09-23T09:59:18Z oleo_: hello drmeister
2015-09-23T09:59:42Z drmeister: I've almost cut the Clasp build time in half over the past week
2015-09-23T10:00:57Z splittist: drmeister: congrats!
2015-09-23T10:01:28Z drmeister: I moved ASDF into a "modules" directory and that broke the build - it takes a while to fix these things.  Build - wait - fix - build - wait ...
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2015-09-23T10:20:12Z joncol: How can I specify that a function in my system can be accessed from SLIME? Do I need to mark it as external in some way?
2015-09-23T10:20:31Z joncol: I get "the symbol ~S is not external in the package"
2015-09-23T10:20:54Z joncol: When I try to call a simple function in my asdf/Quickproject/Quicklisp project
2015-09-23T10:22:21Z jackdaniel: joncol: you have to export symbol from your package with (export '(symbol1 symbol2))
2015-09-23T10:22:44Z jackdaniel: or access it with "::", like (my-package::my-function 1 2 3)
2015-09-23T10:23:05Z joncol: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-09-23T10:23:32Z joncol: Is it standard to specify that stuff in the .asd file?
2015-09-23T10:23:49Z jackdaniel: I do it usually in a file, where I define package
2015-09-23T10:24:03Z jackdaniel: because it isn't really part of the system but package
2015-09-23T10:24:42Z joncol: Ah, there's a package.lisp (created by Quickproject). It probably should go there?
2015-09-23T10:24:52Z jackdaniel: imho yes
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2015-09-23T10:26:07Z joncol: And then I'll have to prefix my call with "package-name:" ? What's the :: syntax?
2015-09-23T10:27:11Z jackdaniel: in your package you could use import
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2015-09-23T10:27:48Z jackdaniel: (import '(my-function) :my-awesome-package)
2015-09-23T10:28:28Z jackdaniel: :: syntax allows you accessing symbol from package even if it isn't exported
2015-09-23T10:28:37Z jackdaniel: mood: tell joncol about pcl
2015-09-23T10:28:46Z jackdaniel: minion: tell joncol about pcl
2015-09-23T10:28:46Z minion: joncol: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-09-23T10:28:59Z jackdaniel: mood: sorry, tab expansion failed (ignore last message, it was minion command)
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2015-09-23T10:33:24Z easye: Macro for DEFPARAMETER that let's me declare a bunch of variables as a single form atomically?
2015-09-23T10:33:36Z easye: Or is that not useful...
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2015-09-23T10:35:27Z otwieracz: How can I split float 4.11 to 4 and 11 easily?
2015-09-23T10:36:14Z joncol: Do I have to use exports/imports even though I just want to test stuff in my SLIME REPL?
2015-09-23T10:36:17Z jackdaniel: otwieracz: truncate
2015-09-23T10:36:25Z otwieracz: thx
2015-09-23T10:36:26Z jackdaniel: well, not really, but it's a good start
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2015-09-23T10:41:40Z jackdaniel: easye: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155652  (?)
2015-09-23T10:42:35Z fu7mu4: jancol: if you put your project on ASDF path, you can load that project by (ql:quickload "your project")
2015-09-23T10:42:45Z jackdaniel: joncol: no, that's why you have "::" syntax or you can just type (use 'my-package)
2015-09-23T10:43:04Z jackdaniel: or (even better) (in-package 'my-package)
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2015-09-23T10:44:26Z jackdaniel: jasom: also http://weitz.de/packages.html
2015-09-23T10:44:42Z easye: jackdaniel: exactly!  Is something like that in Alexandria or successors?
2015-09-23T10:45:01Z fu7mu4: see http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html for mode detail of quickproject.
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2015-09-23T10:45:14Z jackdaniel: easye: not sure  – I'm afraid not
2015-09-23T10:45:31Z jackdaniel: but I suppose alexandria would gladly accept it
2015-09-23T10:45:37Z joncol: OK, ty JD
2015-09-23T10:45:45Z varjag: C-c M-p
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2015-09-23T10:47:13Z easye: I guess I shouldn't be afraid of my own DEFMACRO forms.  Yours looks easy to understand and maintain.
2015-09-23T10:47:33Z easye: Which is the whole point of working _On Lisp_ anyways.
2015-09-23T10:48:36Z jackdaniel: yeah, pretty hard to pull alexandria for implementation innards since you don't have full standard yet (unless you bootstrap from some other lisp)
2015-09-23T10:52:14Z easye: No, this is pure application.
2015-09-23T10:52:21Z jackdaniel: ah
2015-09-23T10:52:25Z easye: I assume I have full ANSI.
2015-09-23T10:53:06Z jackdaniel: anyways as you said - it's OK to grow your language towards the application
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2015-09-23T11:25:19Z dfigrish: Hello. Could anybody tell me how to force SLIME not truncate an error message in SLDB? Or how to expand such a truncated error message?
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2015-09-23T11:31:17Z dfigrish: oops, seems to me that slime-truncate-lines variable is a key
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2015-09-23T12:18:39Z joncol: I use a macro that takes a &rest param. Now I want to specify a list of arguments for this macro call, as a global variable. e.g: (defvar *options* '(:yeah :cool)). But how can I "splat" this argument list before calling the macro?
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2015-09-23T12:24:05Z joncol: Oh, it seems to work when I introduce another macro with a normal let-binding before the call of the "real" macro... A bit strange.
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2015-09-23T12:31:55Z phadthai: it can be tricky at first to make sure the expansions result in the wanted compile-time and run-time effects... without example code it's difficult for us to really understand your goal however... glad that you found a workaround
2015-09-23T12:33:07Z phf: joncol: all sorts of order of evaluation effects might be happening in what you're trying to do, so example is best
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2015-09-23T12:34:56Z phf: in other news, does anybody a shorter way to introduce a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)), then to do the whole (make-array ... :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents ...)?
2015-09-23T12:35:15Z katco: good morning lispers
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2015-09-23T12:37:20Z phf: i had a subtle bug in my code, because i did a #(1 2 3) in one place and then fed it to ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string, which expects an octet vector and has corresponding type/safety optimisations
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2015-09-23T12:37:42Z Xach: I don't like that.
2015-09-23T12:38:08Z Xach: phf: i usually write a function called (defun octet-vector (&rest octets) ...) for that.
2015-09-23T12:38:44Z Xach: or (make-octet-vector 32) for an array of size 32
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2015-09-23T12:40:52Z phf: understood, i guess it was a last resort, but i'll at least borrow your names/signature to maintain a global intent for something so trivial
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2015-09-23T12:47:09Z flip214: anyone seen https://github.com/mntmn/interim " The Interim Operating System
2015-09-23T12:47:25Z flip214: already? any opinions?
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2015-09-23T12:49:24Z phf: https://github.com/mntmn/interim/blob/master/sledge/os/editor.l
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2015-09-23T12:52:09Z flip214: yeah, everything rewritten...
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2015-09-23T12:56:15Z splittist: flip214: HN had something https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10222934 (not much)
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2015-09-23T12:57:48Z katco: how are people using emacs for auto-formating? i have this defined: (set (make-local-variable 'lisp-indent-function) #'common-lisp-indent-function), but things like loop are still wonky
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2015-09-23T13:01:56Z Xach: katco: i don't do that much setup. i use the slime auto-setup and accept how complex loop indents.
2015-09-23T13:01:56Z Shinmera: katco: "Wonky" how?
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2015-09-23T13:02:37Z Vityok: iterate looks somewhat better than the loop
2015-09-23T13:02:51Z katco: Shinmera: the keywords don't always line up
2015-09-23T13:03:18Z Shinmera: katco: Try setting lisp-loop-indent-forms-like-keywords to T.
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2015-09-23T13:03:33Z katco: Xach: i think i may have over-complicated my setup when i was first getting things going. is there a tutorial somewhere for that?
2015-09-23T13:03:37Z Shinmera: Not sure as to the exact extent of that, but I got it in my config for some reason.
2015-09-23T13:03:46Z katco: Shinmera: ty i'll give that a try
2015-09-23T13:04:03Z Shinmera: katco: Generally people just run (slime-setup 'slime-fancy) and be done with it.
2015-09-23T13:04:05Z Xach: katco: not sure, sorry. i use quicklisp-slime-helper's setup forms, and add paredit, but that's about it.
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2015-09-23T13:04:26Z splittist: katco: If it does what you want don't forget to blog about it (:
2015-09-23T13:04:28Z Shinmera is once more reminded to clean up and document his .emacs.d to make things like that easier to answe.
2015-09-23T13:04:42Z katco: splittist: haha indeed!
2015-09-23T13:04:44Z Shinmera: Until I get to that,
2015-09-23T13:04:50Z Shinmera: katco: Maybe something else in here will help too https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L36
2015-09-23T13:05:00Z katco: Shinmera: ty
2015-09-23T13:05:57Z phf: man, that's some 90s quake.rc level configing /me feels like a peasant
2015-09-23T13:06:25Z katco: Shinmera: Xach: actually, looks like that's what i'm doing. (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)), paredit, and (load "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")
2015-09-23T13:06:34Z Shinmera: My config is somewhat modular, so plugging the relevant parts into an existing config should be possible. See the README.
2015-09-23T13:06:41Z Xach: katco: you don't need slime-setup if you load slime-helper
2015-09-23T13:06:42Z flip214: splittist: that's how I found that, year.
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2015-09-23T13:07:15Z katco: Xach: k, ty
2015-09-23T13:07:38Z katco: Xach: is one generally preferred?
2015-09-23T13:08:06Z Xach: katco: well, with slime-setup directly, you have to install and setup slime yourself. slime-helper is a more automatic system.
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2015-09-23T13:08:38Z katco: Xach: i think i'm just using melpa
2015-09-23T13:08:55Z Xach: if you use melpa, i don't think you should load slime-helper.
2015-09-23T13:09:08Z Xach: i'm not sure if anything bad will happen, i just don't think it's good to mix methods
2015-09-23T13:09:16Z flip214: I still believe using some existing kernel and Xorg as base would make more sense - and only putting all the gui stuff on top... ie. lisp machine OS.
2015-09-23T13:09:19Z phf: Shinmera: that indent forms like keywords is unnecessary, according to docs it "Only matters when `lisp-loop-indent-subclauses' is nil", which is t in default, "basic" setup
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2015-09-23T13:10:05Z Shinmera: phf: Ah, well I got that to NIL.
2015-09-23T13:10:12Z phf: oh i see
2015-09-23T13:10:46Z phf: well, shit, i'm reading slime-cl-indent again, there goes my productivity
2015-09-23T13:10:49Z Shinmera: actually, *nil since in elisp it's downcase.
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2015-09-23T13:11:39Z katco: Xach: lol yay, that solved my warning about swank and slime not matching up
2015-09-23T13:11:56Z katco: Xach: been too lazy to figure all of this out, but i have the day off for the equinox :)
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2015-09-23T13:22:32Z ralt: hm
2015-09-23T13:22:40Z ralt: are quicklisp old dists still available?
2015-09-23T13:23:03Z ralt: if I have e.g. an old quicklisp dist, will it download old software too?
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2015-09-23T13:23:11Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-09-23T13:23:26Z ralt: cool
2015-09-23T13:23:50Z ralt: can I download an old quicklisp dist, voluntarily?
2015-09-23T13:24:14Z Shinmera: Probably, but due to lack of documentation I don't know how. Xach probably does know though.
2015-09-23T13:26:20Z flip214: ralt: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html
2015-09-23T13:26:41Z flip214: oh wow, quicklisp is more than 5 years already again??
2015-09-23T13:26:48Z ralt: flip214: oh, nice!
2015-09-23T13:26:50Z ralt: thanks
2015-09-23T13:26:50Z flip214: well, now we can all sing "happy birthday" ;)
2015-09-23T13:29:12Z ralt: flip214: hmmm this is nice. However, it doesn't show a way to download an old dist right away. I guess I'll look at the quicklisp.lisp file :)
2015-09-23T13:29:40Z ralt: namely, I want to put the quicklisp dist version in some config file and upgrade it when I want to
2015-09-23T13:29:52Z ralt: so the builds should always use the same quicklisp dist
2015-09-23T13:31:28Z ralt: (I use this kind of Makefile: https://github.com/ralt/hermes/blob/master/Makefile#L50)
2015-09-23T13:31:41Z ralt: I could put the quicklisp.lisp file in my repo.
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2015-09-23T13:32:37Z ralt: there's this in the quicklisp.lisp file: (defvar qlqs-info:*version* "2015-01-28")
2015-09-23T13:32:39Z flip214: ralt: xach is here, perhaps he has a newer solution as well
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2015-09-23T13:33:46Z ralt: hm... january sounds old
2015-09-23T13:33:50Z ralt: flip214: I'll wait for him then :)
2015-09-23T13:35:25Z ralt: the install function seems to have :dist-url and :dist-version parameters
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2015-09-23T13:45:30Z ralt: alright, using (ql-dist:available-versions (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")), I can get the urls to use with dist-url at the install
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2015-09-23T13:56:47Z joncol: I'm trying to install Lucerne on Windows, but I get the error message "CP1252 stream decoding error on... ...cl-locale-20120909-git\\README.markdown". Is there some config option to make SLIME use another codepage?
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2015-09-23T14:04:40Z oGMo: flip214: just saw that .. it's not CL, but there's no reason it couldn't be, or even layer CL on it, etc
2015-09-23T14:05:55Z eudoxia: joncol: maybe (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :utf-8)
2015-09-23T14:06:17Z jackdaniel: < flip214> well, now we can all sing "happy birthday" ;) – and nobody will sue us for that! http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/23/us-judge-rules-happy-birthday-is-public-domain-throws-out-copyright-claim
2015-09-23T14:06:32Z flip214: jackdaniel: that's what I was getting at
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2015-09-23T14:07:31Z joncol: eudoxia: no worries, found https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-locale/commit/0a36cc0dcf5e0a8c8bf97869cd6199980ca25eec
2015-09-23T14:07:54Z eudoxia: oh
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2015-09-23T14:16:30Z Xach: ralt: sorry not to be here to help, but it looks like you found what you need
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2015-09-23T14:19:51Z ralt: Xach: yep, np, thanks
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2015-09-23T14:37:14Z joncol: eudoxia: got a "CASE-FAILURE /" when trying to visit localhost:4545... Any idea what I could be doing wrong? Did exactly as on http://quickdocs.org/lucerne/
2015-09-23T14:37:30Z eudoxia: maybe you don't have any routes defined?
2015-09-23T14:37:47Z joncol: I have the same routes as on that page?
2015-09-23T14:38:02Z joncol: Btw, how can I stop the server (from SLIME) ?
2015-09-23T14:38:08Z joncol: (Sorry for noob questions)
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2015-09-23T14:38:27Z eudoxia: try this instead https://github.com/eudoxia0/lucerne/blob/master/examples/hello-world/app.lisp
2015-09-23T14:38:32Z eudoxia: (lucerne:stop app)
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2015-09-23T14:42:33Z joncol: eudoxia: Thanks, it works!
2015-09-23T14:42:43Z joncol: Why didn't the first example work?
2015-09-23T14:43:14Z eudoxia: probably because of the readtable
2015-09-23T14:43:32Z eudoxia: this bit (annot:enable-annot-syntax) enables the @route decorators
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2015-09-23T14:44:05Z joncol: OK nice. First day using CL :)
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2015-09-23T14:56:29Z Xach: the first day of the rest of your life!
2015-09-23T14:56:54Z flip214: xach: I'd have expected (first (rest life))!
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2015-09-23T14:59:13Z splittist: He cadr said that, but he didn't.
2015-09-23T14:59:41Z leku: lol
2015-09-23T14:59:52Z leku: nerd alert
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2015-09-23T15:13:52Z leku: watching Kalman Reti's opengenera video
2015-09-23T15:14:24Z leku: I wish I grew up using one of those machines as my primary system, that would have been a lot of fun
2015-09-23T15:14:27Z leku: or something similar
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2015-09-23T15:16:07Z jackdaniel: similar to fun?
2015-09-23T15:16:50Z leku: a system similar to genera
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2015-09-23T15:17:22Z jackdaniel: then go and develop interim
2015-09-23T15:17:34Z jackdaniel: it might be a second genera one day :p
2015-09-23T15:17:36Z leku: in the interim?
2015-09-23T15:17:41Z leku: or "interim"
2015-09-23T15:18:19Z jackdaniel: interim (I might mispelled it, not sure) - OS written with lisp in mind
2015-09-23T15:18:33Z leku: Oh I read about that the other day
2015-09-23T15:18:33Z jackdaniel: how author put it? OS which might be understood by one person?
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2015-09-23T15:18:44Z leku: seemed like a bunch of caca
2015-09-23T15:18:52Z jackdaniel: caca?
2015-09-23T15:19:03Z phadthai: libcaca?
2015-09-23T15:19:05Z leku: lol
2015-09-23T15:19:12Z leku: it will be cool some day, but right now it's just a nice idea
2015-09-23T15:19:47Z jackdaniel: if people will have same attitude as you we'll never have a second genera ;)
2015-09-23T15:20:11Z jackdaniel: anyway from the peak I gave the project it looked really cool
2015-09-23T15:20:15Z leku: I'm here, if some smarter people than me want to create something cool, I will use it, or try to
2015-09-23T15:20:57Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's what I mean by saying that if everybody will share your attitude it will never happen
2015-09-23T15:21:08Z leku: I'm part of the equation tho :)
2015-09-23T15:21:43Z jackdaniel: then we have different view of this equation ^_^
2015-09-23T15:21:55Z leku: you have producers and consumers
2015-09-23T15:21:58Z leku: i am a consumer
2015-09-23T15:23:00Z jackdaniel: no, people are producers and producers - just in different fields. and there are naysayers (putting it gently).
2015-09-23T15:23:11Z jackdaniel: but it's not #lisp discussion, sorry
2015-09-23T15:25:17Z leku: so you're saying I am teh naysayer?
2015-09-23T15:25:36Z jackdaniel: if you want to continue this discussion please join #lispcafe
2015-09-23T15:25:44Z leku: what's wrong with this channel
2015-09-23T15:26:13Z jackdaniel: it is techinical / dev channel about lisp not the computer sociology
2015-09-23T15:26:15Z rme: leku: We prefer to talk about lisp here.
2015-09-23T15:26:46Z leku: whatever
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2015-09-23T15:40:33Z Jenna_: I'm using cl-json and would like to know if there is a built-in option for pretty-printing the output.
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2015-09-23T15:43:33Z jlarocco: I don't think there is
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2015-09-23T16:05:54Z jasom: TIL that MIT managed to get 256 kWord of magnetic core memory on one of their early PDP-10s
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2015-09-23T16:23:32Z emaczen: Is there a way to add time as hours and minutes e.g. (+ 9:03 14:42)
2015-09-23T16:23:56Z emaczen: I see with (get-decoded-time) they are represented differently.
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2015-09-23T16:25:04Z Bike: you can decode, add, encode. or use a library like local-time.
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2015-09-23T16:29:36Z emaczen: Bike: how do I turn decoded times to a pretty print?
2015-09-23T16:29:56Z Bike: a library, if you don't want to write it yourself.
2015-09-23T16:30:06Z Bike: localtime has a couple timestamp formats.
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2015-09-23T16:40:38Z jlarocco: use local-time:adjust-timestamp
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2015-09-23T16:42:47Z emaczen: Bike: Thanks, local-time seems to be pretty nice
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2015-09-23T17:40:07Z jasom: jackdaniel: is it possible to cross-compile ecl?
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2015-09-23T17:41:15Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: and also, more specifically, to ask ecl to produce a set of .c files that I can then cross-compile to another platform?
2015-09-23T17:41:15Z minion: attila_lendvai, memo from jackdaniel: I'm using VM for such tasks (QEMU or VirtualManager are a good solution). For now you can set prevent files deletion (like in answer on SO you quoted) or set approprietly variables preset on src cmp cmpdefs.lsp (*cc*, *ld*, *ranlib* etc) which are in the package "COMPILER". I know it's crude right now, that's why I plan to work on it
2015-09-23T17:41:58Z attila_lendvai: heh, I see, thanks! :)
2015-09-23T17:42:18Z attila_lendvai: setting those globals sounds reasonable enough
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2015-09-23T17:42:39Z jasom: attila_lendvai: well I also need to cross-compile the ecl library
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2015-09-23T17:44:06Z attila_lendvai: I was stopped by a bug in qemu when I tried to just start a mips debian and apt-get install ecl (kernel didn't find the root fs, and it's fixed, but no in the qemu I have in my debian, so I gave up on that for now)
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2015-09-23T18:22:27Z alecigne: Hi all, a beginner question... That would be the equivalent of the Python code: open("test.jpg", "rb").read() in Common Lisp? Apparently Python returns a string after reading the binary file, and I would like to obtain the same in Common Lisp. I am using with-open-file but then I am a little stuck. Thank you
2015-09-23T18:22:35Z alecigne: What would be*
2015-09-23T18:23:55Z jasom: alecigne: common lisp doesn't have a builtin for reading an entire file
2015-09-23T18:24:20Z oGMo: no but alexandria does, and everything everywhere uses that
2015-09-23T18:24:30Z jasom: oGMo: it does?
2015-09-23T18:24:38Z oGMo: (read-file-into-string PATHNAME)
2015-09-23T18:24:44Z jasom: oGMo: *binary*
2015-09-23T18:24:55Z oGMo: it takes :external-format
2015-09-23T18:25:10Z katco: is the person who wrote clasp here?
2015-09-23T18:25:15Z jasom: alecigne: (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector ("test.jpg"))
2015-09-23T18:25:17Z Shinmera: katco: that's drmeister.
2015-09-23T18:25:28Z oGMo: jasom: that's not a string, though arguably more useful heh
2015-09-23T18:25:30Z jasom: alecigne: (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector "test.jpg")
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2015-09-23T18:25:47Z katco: drmeister: i just wanted to say thank you for your work, and for taking the time to give the google tech talk. i'm watching it right now; very interesting!
2015-09-23T18:25:50Z oGMo: i'm not sure why alecigne wants a string, but one can never tell
2015-09-23T18:25:54Z katco: Shinmera: ty
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2015-09-23T18:26:24Z jasom: alecigne: In python2, strings are immutable byte arrays.  The closest common lisp has is mutable byte-vectors, which is what (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector "test.jpg") will do
2015-09-23T18:26:55Z alecigne: Thank you very much for your suggestions, I am going to explore that
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2015-09-23T18:27:15Z alecigne: To be honest, I want a string because the code I wrote using Python works, and returns a string :D
2015-09-23T18:27:16Z oGMo: jasom: they're byte arrays? ergh
2015-09-23T18:27:29Z jasom: oGMo: yeah, that was a big change with python3
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2015-09-23T18:28:05Z oGMo: jasom: at least there's that
2015-09-23T18:28:12Z jasom: alecigne: in lisp, strings are 1-dimensional arrays of characters, which is more like the unicode type in python
2015-09-23T18:29:18Z jasom: alecigne: for where you want binary data, you'll want to use 1-dimensional arrays of type (unsigned-byte 8) which is what  READ-FILE-INTO-BYTE-VECTOR does for you
2015-09-23T18:32:49Z alecigne: jasom: I see, thank you. The API I'm trying to use wants an image as a binary file or "base64 data" (not familiar with this). The only thing I know is that it works with Python, which I guess returns "base64 data".
2015-09-23T18:34:10Z jasom: alecigne: python returns a binary file for the line you showed me
2015-09-23T18:34:58Z jasom: base64 is a way of representing binary data as characters found within the ascii set
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2015-09-23T18:35:48Z jasom: For example: (cl-base64:usb8-array-to-base64-string #(1 2 3 4)) ; => "AQIDBA=="
2015-09-23T18:36:01Z jackdaniel: jasom: crosscompiling ECL should be easier then cross-compiling something with ecl
2015-09-23T18:36:03Z alecigne: jasom: Oh, so the return value I saw in Python was binary data made "readable" using this base64 representation? Which would be why I thought it was a string?
2015-09-23T18:36:23Z jasom: jackdaniel: I'm okay with interpreted only for now
2015-09-23T18:36:49Z drmeister: katco: thanks!
2015-09-23T18:36:52Z jackdaniel: jasom: well, you can even cross-compile ecl with c backend if you have gcc (or equivalent) on the target system
2015-09-23T18:37:04Z jasom: alecigne: no, .read() will return something that looks like 'Hello\xf3'
2015-09-23T18:37:11Z jasom: jackdaniel: no compiler on target system
2015-09-23T18:37:25Z jackdaniel: then bytecmp
2015-09-23T18:37:38Z jasom: jackdaniel: do I have to specify some configuration options for doing this?
2015-09-23T18:37:39Z alecigne: jasom: OK, thanks. I guess I will RTFM :)
2015-09-23T18:37:50Z jackdaniel: brb
2015-09-23T18:38:09Z jasom: alecigne: basically python shows bytes that would be printable characters as those characters and otherwise uses \x to escape the values in hex
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2015-09-23T18:44:31Z jackdaniel: jasom: you have to provide env variables like with normal cross compilation and --host=arm-linux-gnueabi- (for instance) – no exact details since I've done it long time ago and don't remember
2015-09-23T18:44:41Z jackdaniel: I plan to write full tutorial for next ECL Quarterly though
2015-09-23T18:45:19Z alecigne: Actually I want to pass a key and a value in the parameters of a HTTP post request. The key is the string "image" and the value is what the Python code: open("test.jpg", "rb").read() returns. So in Drakma, could I just write this: :parameters '(("image" . (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector "test.jpg")) ?
2015-09-23T18:45:29Z alecigne: I hope I'm being clear here :s
2015-09-23T18:45:46Z jackdaniel: jasom: compilation will fail for the first time demanding you to specify some values which can't be detected (if platform has long long, long double etc, word size, stack direction - they all have sane defaults in proposed sample)
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2015-09-23T18:47:47Z jackdaniel: ah, and --with-cmp=no --with-bytecmp=yes
2015-09-23T18:47:54Z jackdaniel: to disable C compiler
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2015-09-23T18:48:32Z jackdaniel: jasom: if you succeed and meet any obstacles I'd be grateful if you send me your notes (it will help me to write appropriate tutorial)
2015-09-23T18:49:16Z jasom: jackdaniel: thanks; getting gmp to succeed was slightly painful, I worked around it with --host=none --build=none for gmp
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2015-09-23T18:50:09Z jasom: apparently if you do that gmp uses fairly vanilla C
2015-09-23T18:50:44Z jackdaniel: you can use gmp bundled with ECL
2015-09-23T18:51:15Z jackdaniel: it should figure out flags, and if you want to build it with vanilla C then add flag --with-C-gmp
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2015-09-23T18:51:28Z jasom: oh
2015-09-23T18:52:14Z jackdaniel: I can't help you much furthr without guessing though
2015-09-23T18:52:30Z jasom: jackdaniel: has been very helpful so far
2015-09-23T18:53:28Z jackdaniel: cross compilation of ecl is seprated into two stages
2015-09-23T18:53:39Z jackdaniel: first you build host ecl and then with help of it you build the target one
2015-09-23T18:55:34Z jackdaniel: and here is sample configuration script (not part of ECL yet): https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android/blob/master/configure#L88
2015-09-23T18:55:50Z jackdaniel: if you can figure out something from it then it might be helpful
2015-09-23T18:58:59Z jasom: I found that, but it was somewhat involved and the android parts seemed to dominate the cross-compile parts
2015-09-23T18:59:15Z jasom: lots of nacl stuff &ct.
2015-09-23T19:00:05Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's why I mentioned "if you can figure something out from it" :P bit --disable-long-double is a nice hint - your target platform is unlikely to have it
2015-09-23T19:00:43Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure how much of it is necessary for succesful cross-compilation – btw why won't you use just qemu?
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2015-09-23T19:13:15Z pjb: One big problem for cross compilation of Common Lisp, is that since we have some porosity between compilation time and run-time, we must be able to deal concretely with the differences between the target and the host platform.  One way is to insist on conforming code including inside the implementations -- a lot of implementations are not written in conforming CL :-(
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2015-09-23T19:14:06Z pjb: And in practice, it means that a cross CL compiler will have to compile at least twice, once for the host (for macros eval-when :compile-toplevel etc), and once for the target.
2015-09-23T19:14:37Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why ECL CC has two stages
2015-09-23T19:14:51Z pjb: But libraries and user code will be even less careful (think notably about all the FFI libraries).
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2015-09-23T19:17:08Z jackdaniel: depends on the developer
2015-09-23T19:18:29Z pjb: ok, how many library or application don't assume that the character set will be the same at compilation and at run-time?
2015-09-23T19:19:31Z pjb: because you might be cross compiling on an ASCII system for an EBCDIC system.
2015-09-23T19:20:17Z jackdaniel: cross compiling is easier for one platforms and harder for the others
2015-09-23T19:20:28Z pjb: But granted, programming without assumption can grow tiresome.
2015-09-23T19:20:31Z jackdaniel: I can figure some exotic examples as well
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2015-09-23T20:24:49Z jackdaniel: good night \o
2015-09-23T20:25:41Z jackdaniel: jasom: please let me know how if you succeeded when you do/don't
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2015-09-23T20:55:53Z dim: is it possible to get at the pathname of a given stream?
2015-09-23T20:56:27Z dim: I want to open a file in the same directory as the one from the current stream, when the stream is from a file
2015-09-23T20:56:56Z Fare: yes it is, if it's a file-stream, using (pathname stream), I think
2015-09-23T20:57:57Z dim: ah yeah, too easy, couldn't see it, thanks Fare!
2015-09-23T21:01:02Z Fare: If I read-sequence into an array for (unsigned-byte 32) from a stream with element-type '(unsigned-byte 8), I'll still get one byte per word, isn't it?
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2015-09-23T21:03:43Z Fare: is there an easy way in CFFI to extract a 64-bit word from a byte array?
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2015-09-23T21:04:42Z dim: now on to "The value #\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_O_WITH_DIAERESIS is not of type BASE-CHAR.", and I'm wondering what should I use in with-open-file as the :element-type then?
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2015-09-23T21:06:05Z dim: 'character works
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2015-09-23T21:19:19Z attila_lendvai: Fare: there's this, too: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles
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2015-09-23T21:31:46Z intel: How do I prevent Eval from killing the program?
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2015-09-23T21:42:45Z Fare postpones further sbcl deep hacking
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2015-09-23T22:04:20Z dfigrish: folks, how to prevent truncating SLDB error message?
2015-09-23T22:04:35Z dfigrish: in the SLIME
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2015-09-23T22:07:59Z jlarocco: is there a library for normalizing and denormalizing unicode?
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2015-09-23T22:09:14Z jlarocco: I don't see anything in cl-unicode
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2015-09-23T22:09:28Z easye: Is there a Handlebars template CL library?
2015-09-23T22:09:52Z attila_lendvai: jlarocco: there's babel also, but I don't know if it has normalization
2015-09-23T22:09:54Z easye: Looks simple enough to write, actually.
2015-09-23T22:10:12Z easye shaves a GNU.
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2015-09-23T22:12:44Z attila_lendvai: dfigrish: there's *swank-pprint-bindings* and *backtrace-printer-bindings* and the former may affect it. the defaults in slime are notoriously unfriendly...
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2015-09-23T22:14:25Z dfigrish: attila_lendvai: ugh
2015-09-23T22:14:40Z dfigrish: attila_lendvai: thanks!
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2015-09-23T22:33:53Z jasom hugs ECL's dpp
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2015-09-23T22:59:49Z Fare: what's dpp?
2015-09-23T23:05:20Z dfigrish: Fare: could you help me please to figure out why ASDF 3.1.5 unable load the system symlinked in ~/common-lisp/ ?
2015-09-23T23:05:30Z dfigrish: Fare: its on Clozure CL
2015-09-23T23:09:10Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: I'd guess the preprocessor
2015-09-23T23:10:03Z dfigrish: Fare: as far as I understand by investigating the backtrace, there is something wrong with calling next method -- asdf/operate:operate
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2015-09-23T23:11:30Z Fare: dfigrish: symlink is not portable
2015-09-23T23:11:43Z Fare: I mean, of directory
2015-09-23T23:11:55Z Fare: edit your source-registry.conf instead
2015-09-23T23:12:02Z Fare: or (yuck) symlink the .asd file
2015-09-23T23:12:44Z Fare: dfigrish, what are you trying to do?
2015-09-23T23:12:53Z PuercoPop: jlarocco: sbcl has sb-unicode:normalize-string
2015-09-23T23:12:55Z dfigrish: Fare: thanks. But how to understand this from the backtrace?
2015-09-23T23:13:19Z dfigrish: Fare: for example (asdf:load-system :postmodern)
2015-09-23T23:13:36Z dfigrish: Fare: it works as expected on SBCL, but not on CCL
2015-09-23T23:14:02Z dfigrish: Fate: I've created the symlink ~/common-lisp/postmodern
2015-09-23T23:14:34Z Fare: dfigrish, not portable
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2015-09-23T23:15:06Z Fare: the problem is directory*
2015-09-23T23:15:07Z dfigrish: Fare: okay. I see. But I just want to understand whats going on from the backtrace, but unsuccessful :(
2015-09-23T23:15:23Z Fare: the higher problem is directory was "Standardized" long before symlinks were.
2015-09-23T23:15:42Z Fare: by the time you get your system not found, it's way too late
2015-09-23T23:16:16Z Fare: symlinking directories is NOT portable wrt source-registry
2015-09-23T23:16:44Z Fare: I'm not willing to fight 15 implementations to change that, but if you're going to, I'll be glad to hear from you
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2015-09-23T23:18:59Z dfigrish: Fare: first of all I want to understand how to use the debugger to understand whats going on. In this case, I want to see that I need to edit my source-registry.conf from the backtrace. Is it possible? :)
2015-09-23T23:19:55Z Fare: look at source-registry.lisp
2015-09-23T23:20:03Z Fare: no time to explain now
2015-09-23T23:20:08Z dfigrish: Fare: okay
2015-09-23T23:20:13Z dfigrish: Fare: thanks
2015-09-23T23:20:27Z Fare: but the registry is loaded first thing when you first operate, and remains until you reinitialize
2015-09-23T23:20:32Z Fare: it walks your declared trees
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2015-09-23T23:20:44Z Fare: using uiop:directory*
2015-09-23T23:21:05Z Fare: if you look at asdf bugs, there's one for this non-portability
2015-09-23T23:21:18Z Fare: some would like to always follow symlink dirs, others never
2015-09-23T23:21:24Z Fare: others, depending on a flag
2015-09-23T23:21:30Z Fare: but there's no portable solution
2015-09-23T23:21:35Z Fare: so fuck it
2015-09-23T23:21:42Z dfigrish: :)
2015-09-23T23:22:10Z Fare: by the time you get your backtrace, it did a simple lookup of a hash-table cache
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2015-09-23T23:22:34Z Fare: find-system.lisp has lots of complexity to accommodate everyone's extensibility needs
2015-09-23T23:23:02Z Fare: it's as big as half of the original asdf.
2015-09-23T23:23:35Z Fare: sometimes I feel like writing ASDF 4.
2015-09-23T23:23:47Z dfigrish: Fare: as far as I understood the with-asdf-cache is a key to understanding the backtrace
2015-09-23T23:23:48Z Fare: Sometimes I feel that nobody needs it anyway
2015-09-23T23:23:54Z Fare: no it isn't
2015-09-23T23:24:21Z Fare: if you want to understand asdf internals, see the documentation links in the asdf page
2015-09-23T23:24:39Z Fare: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#documentation
2015-09-23T23:24:57Z Fare: that -- and read the source (starting with my old walkthrough)
2015-09-23T23:25:06Z Fare: my walkthrough didn't cover the source-registry, though
2015-09-23T23:26:15Z dfigrish: Okay. But my primary goal to solve such problems by myself with debugger or tracing.
2015-09-23T23:27:49Z dfigrish: Because of time limit everywhere.
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2015-09-23T23:28:19Z dfigrish: (Don't have time to read sources from cover to cover to solve every little problem.)
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2015-09-23T23:28:41Z Fare: of course
2015-09-23T23:28:53Z Fare: this is a bad problem to solve with a debugger, though
2015-09-23T23:29:05Z Fare: unless you implement an Omniscient Debugger for CL
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2015-09-23T23:30:50Z dfigrish: Okay. Time to sleep after backtraces :) Cu.
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2015-09-24T00:24:52Z ajf-: https://gist.github.com/ajf-/07c424bba1d3cb57c028 - Warning:  In an anonymous lambda form at position 65: Undeclared free variable score (3 references)
2015-09-24T00:24:54Z ajf-: any ideas ?
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2015-09-24T00:26:14Z Xach: ajf-: if you want a global variable, use defvar or defparameter, not setf.
2015-09-24T00:26:53Z ajf-: defvar first and setf in the loop worked
2015-09-24T00:26:56Z ajf-: thank you
2015-09-24T00:27:20Z doesthiswork: and it is also traditional to call it *score*
2015-09-24T00:27:41Z Xach: ajf-: when accumulating something, it is sometimes better to push on the front and reverse at the end
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2015-09-24T00:28:02Z ajf-: ah for the global
2015-09-24T00:28:15Z ajf-: ok just picking up lisp
2015-09-24T00:28:28Z ajf-: kindly just passing through the oh gross stage to start to get some fluidity
2015-09-24T00:28:34Z Xach: and checking the length of a list gets more expensive the longer it gets. it has to walk the whole thing to find the length.
2015-09-24T00:28:38Z ajf-: still with problems
2015-09-24T00:29:11Z ajf-: is it me or packages are really out of date ?
2015-09-24T00:29:33Z Xach: ajf-: you'll have to be more specific
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2015-09-24T00:49:49Z ajf-: I'm on a kind of embedded listener on an app that uses CC
2015-09-24T00:49:51Z ajf-: CCL
2015-09-24T00:50:03Z ajf-: trying to do (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp")
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2015-09-24T00:50:19Z ajf-: I get that quicklisp is already installed but (ql:system-apropos) and the other ql functions return nothing
2015-09-24T00:50:41Z Xach: ajf-: you have to load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp"
2015-09-24T00:50:52Z Xach: it's installed, but not loaded
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2015-09-24T00:51:30Z ajf-: evaluating (ql:add-to-init-file) shows that it's looking for setup.lisp in a directory where it doesn't exist, and that the conf file is ~/.ccl-init.lisp
2015-09-24T00:51:41Z ajf-: can I just download that setup.lisp file and put it there ?
2015-09-24T00:52:13Z Xach: ajf-: no.
2015-09-24T00:52:21Z Xach: ajf-: where is quicklisp installed on your system?
2015-09-24T00:52:31Z ajf-: it's strange. It comes with a program.
2015-09-24T00:52:36Z ajf-: like embedded inside it
2015-09-24T00:52:51Z Xach: What program?
2015-09-24T00:52:53Z ajf-: I have lisp installed through a different installation but this seems like a different environment altogether
2015-09-24T00:52:55Z ajf-: Opusmodus
2015-09-24T00:53:08Z ajf-: i'm trying the dem
2015-09-24T00:53:09Z ajf-: o
2015-09-24T00:53:47Z Xach: ajf-: what do you get from evaluating: ql-setup:*quicklisp-home*
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2015-09-24T00:54:40Z ajf-: #P"/Users/opusmodus/quicklisp/"
2015-09-24T00:55:04Z ajf-: I don't have such user
2015-09-24T00:55:06Z Xach: ajf-: ok. so it looks like that's the build-time environment leaking into the run-time environment.
2015-09-24T00:55:20Z ajf-: huh. any tips ?
2015-09-24T00:55:41Z Xach: ajf-: if you want to use quicklisp, maybe just use ccl directly? or is there something specific you want to do in conjunction with opusmodus?
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2015-09-24T00:56:27Z ajf-: not really. Can I just download a particular library and include it without using quicklisp to install it ?
2015-09-24T00:56:33Z Xach: sure.
2015-09-24T00:56:42Z ajf-: ah nice
2015-09-24T00:56:50Z ajf-: i'll try that out
2015-09-24T00:56:51Z Xach: quicklisp makes it easier, because you don't have to track down the prerequisites, and their prerequisites, etc
2015-09-24T00:58:56Z ajf-: can't I just set quicklisp-home ?
2015-09-24T00:59:01Z Xach: ajf-: Possibly
2015-09-24T00:59:14Z Xach: ajf-: it's possible other build environment bits mix it up, though.
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2015-09-24T01:19:35Z intel: Where are all of the games developed in lisp?
2015-09-24T01:19:53Z pjb: in #lispgames
2015-09-24T01:20:20Z pjb: or http://cliki.net/game
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2015-09-24T01:32:05Z ajf-: I just found out (user-homedir-pathname) is correctly define
2015-09-24T01:32:06Z ajf-: d
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2015-09-24T02:04:10Z kyfho: ecl work with bordeaux threads?
2015-09-24T02:13:34Z phadthai: kyfho: bordeaux threads should support ecl yes
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2015-09-24T02:51:31Z intel: In lisp I need to check if a variable has enough cells to qualify as a list or not. How can I accomplish such?
2015-09-24T02:52:04Z Bike: what's a cell?
2015-09-24T02:52:05Z jasom: intel: what do you mean by that?
2015-09-24T02:52:21Z jasom: what's a cell, what's "enough cells"
2015-09-24T02:52:56Z intel: A cons cell, I want to check if a list has more than one element.
2015-09-24T02:53:31Z jasom: ah, well if you know it's a proper list then just (and (consp x) (cdr x)) will suffice
2015-09-24T02:53:34Z Bike: length
2015-09-24T02:54:43Z intel: Thansk
2015-09-24T02:54:55Z intel: s/sk/ks
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2015-09-24T03:00:33Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I'm preparing to release a major new release of Clasp - it's much faster now with all the same C++/LLVM interoperation goodness.
2015-09-24T03:00:38Z White_Flame: (cdr x) would suffice.  If you know it's a proper list, (consp x) is already true
2015-09-24T03:00:55Z White_Flame: and I saw the problem with that as I hit enter :-P
2015-09-24T03:01:24Z White_Flame: and I saw that cdr passthrough of null would still allow a (cdr x) to suffice
2015-09-24T03:01:47Z White_Flame: drmeister: congrats!
2015-09-24T03:01:47Z pjb: NIL qualifies as a list.
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2015-09-24T03:02:30Z drmeister: It's got Cleavir, inlining, tagged pointers, immediate fixnums and a bunch of other things.  It's in drmeister/clasp "preview" branch if anyone wants to check it out.
2015-09-24T03:02:32Z White_Flame: right, and (consp x) doesn't need to be true, if you're testing for >1 element, just that (cdr x) is non-nil
2015-09-24T03:02:44Z drmeister: Feedback appreciated
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2015-09-24T03:33:23Z drmeister: I'm also readying Cando, the Chemistry aware version of Clasp - it doubles the size of the code and adds hundreds of C++ classes to build molecules. These new classes are all managed by the garbage collector as are all Common Lisp classes.
2015-09-24T03:33:48Z drmeister: They are also PRINTable and READable - so I can serialize them to files and send them across network connections.
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2015-09-24T03:35:05Z drmeister: It took a while and the freakin' thing almost killed me a few times - but it's coming together.
2015-09-24T03:36:39Z drmeister: It's going to be to molecules what R is to statistics and Matlab is to mats.
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2015-09-24T03:38:57Z drmeister: I'm just preparing to run the static analyzer on the expanded Cando code (336 C++ files vs ~176 for Clasp alone).
2015-09-24T03:40:28Z kristof: Optimistic.
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2015-09-24T03:41:01Z drmeister: Worry is a misuse of imagination.
2015-09-24T03:41:24Z kristof: I did not say that the alternative was better. :)
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2015-09-24T03:43:24Z drmeister: Right - I'm not arguing. I just like that quote.
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2015-09-24T03:56:07Z drmeister: How do people work with COMPILE-FILE and FASLs?
2015-09-24T03:56:46Z drmeister: I write code and LOAD the code - when should I be COMPILE-FILE'ing the code and LOADing the FASL?
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2015-09-24T03:57:09Z rme: When it's faster.
2015-09-24T03:57:10Z drmeister: Do people COMPILE-FILE source when they get fed up with the time it takes to LOAD the source code?
2015-09-24T03:57:54Z H4ns: drmeister: i think most people don't worry and use asdf, which will compile the files and LOAD the FASLs
2015-09-24T03:59:18Z drmeister: Ah - right.  I do that for my image files.
2015-09-24T04:00:15Z drmeister: So people write their own system files for small projects?
2015-09-24T04:00:24Z drmeister: I guess it's like writing a makefile.
2015-09-24T04:00:41Z H4ns: quickproject helps with that, but yes.
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2015-09-24T04:02:41Z drmeister: quickproject?  Looking...
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2015-09-24T04:07:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-24T04:23:42Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-09-24T04:30:17Z clintm: Howdy, beach
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2015-09-24T05:06:48Z intel: How do I set a value to an empty variable?
2015-09-24T05:08:15Z beach: intel: What is an empty variable?
2015-09-24T05:08:36Z beach: intel: Normally, you use SETF (or SETQ) to assign a value to a variable.
2015-09-24T05:08:41Z beach: clhs setf
2015-09-24T05:08:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
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2015-09-24T05:09:39Z intel_: I get SETQ: cariable *LINE-BUFFER* has no value.
2015-09-24T05:09:48Z intel_: s/c/v
2015-09-24T05:10:08Z beach: Show us what you typed.
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2015-09-24T05:11:50Z jasom: intel_: you'll need to also make sure that the variable is defined
2015-09-24T05:12:33Z intel_: http://pastebin.com/RShTBSqE
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2015-09-24T05:13:19Z White_Flame: you're trying to read it before setting it
2015-09-24T05:13:29Z White_Flame: append-buffer is trying that, specifically
2015-09-24T05:14:42Z White_Flame: somewhere, you need to initialize the value, and that should probably be on the defvar itself
2015-09-24T05:14:46Z jasom: perhaps (defvar *line-buffer* nil)
2015-09-24T05:15:25Z White_Flame: also:
2015-09-24T05:15:26Z White_Flame: clhs push
2015-09-24T05:15:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm
2015-09-24T05:15:34Z jasom: also you probably want (list data) not (data)
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2015-09-24T05:16:20Z intel_: jasom: I don't need it now that I've added nil. Thanks it works.
2015-09-24T05:16:48Z jasom: intel_: nil is not a consp, but yeah, you don't need hte conditional
2015-09-24T05:16:49Z White_Flame: you also don't need cond for adding a head element to a list.  It's simply (cons new-head-value old-list)
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2015-09-24T05:17:12Z White_Flame: if old-list is NIL, then that's perfectly fine as a list terminator
2015-09-24T05:17:35Z jasom: this is the whole reason why nil and () are the same
2015-09-24T05:17:39Z beach: intel_: That code needs a lot of work.  It is full of non-idiomatic constructs.
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2015-09-24T05:17:59Z jasom: intel_: what resource(s) are you using for learning lisp?
2015-09-24T05:18:43Z intel_: jasom: I'm coming up with ideas and then finding the information to craft them.
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2015-09-24T05:19:22Z intel_: Google mostly, I do have the land of lisp also.
2015-09-24T05:19:39Z beach: intel_: Never put whitespace after '(' or before ')'.
2015-09-24T05:20:13Z beach: intel_: Put the name of the function and the parameters on the same line as DEFUN, unless that would make the line too long.
2015-09-24T05:20:45Z beach: intel_: Put the name of the variable and its initial value on the same line as DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER unless that would make the line too long.
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2015-09-24T05:21:12Z beach: intel_: And indent the code correctly.
2015-09-24T05:22:08Z resttime: intel_, do you use emacs? If so, I highly recommend getting paredit + slime if you don't already have use/it
2015-09-24T05:22:38Z resttime: and then EVIL if you prefer VIM bindings
2015-09-24T05:22:38Z intel_: resttime: Vim, although I don't mind switching if it's beneficial.
2015-09-24T05:22:46Z beach: It is.
2015-09-24T05:22:48Z resttime: (they are addons)
2015-09-24T05:22:56Z jasom: intel_: make sure you do a ":set lisp" at least in vim
2015-09-24T05:23:07Z jasom: intel_: that will make autoindentation much closer to what is idiomatic
2015-09-24T05:23:21Z resttime: intel_, the benefits you'll get will be quite great
2015-09-24T05:23:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: slimv in lisp is pretty good too
2015-09-24T05:23:46Z jasom: emacs+SLIME is essentially a lisp IDE, I use vim for everything except lisp development, where I use emacs with SLIME
2015-09-24T05:24:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/lisp/vim
2015-09-24T05:24:20Z resttime: Paredit helps manage/edit parenthesis or s-expression
2015-09-24T05:24:53Z resttime: SLIME provides many debugging tools and such for the REPL
2015-09-24T05:24:54Z intel_: Is there an auto-code beautifier available?
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2015-09-24T05:25:59Z resttime: with emacs and paredit most will be done automatically so you wouldn't need to run a beautifier afterwards
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2015-09-24T05:26:13Z resttime: auto indents properly and etc.
2015-09-24T05:27:22Z resttime: Though if you're diehard VIM, as mentioned earlier slimv is fine for most purposes, it's just that emacs usually considered the all powerful editor when it comes to lisp
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2015-09-24T05:27:47Z resttime: and then the EVIL addon gives VIM bindings etc. (which I myself use)
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2015-09-24T06:50:11Z snv: Alternative to Emacs? Maybe a Visual Studio level IDE?
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2015-09-24T06:51:47Z snv: Emacs is one of the reasons people find CL hard to start with. At least Racket has some GUI.
2015-09-24T06:53:32Z snv: vim is even more horrible. I don't get why people stick to these obsolete editors. Even Turbo C for DOS had a better IDE
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2015-09-24T06:55:02Z otwieracz: Because editor is not an IDE?
2015-09-24T06:57:37Z dim: snv: on macosx you may try the free (open source) CCL IDE
2015-09-24T06:58:08Z jackdaniel: snv: stassats works on IDE for CL
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2015-09-24T06:59:33Z jackdaniel: also LW has a good IDE (never used it but some people praise it)
2015-09-24T06:59:38Z snv: dim, unfortunately I'm switching between OSX at home and Windows at work
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2015-09-24T07:00:57Z snv: Then I'm mostly using sbcl, because everything is written with it in mind. And there is no IDE for sbcl.
2015-09-24T07:01:25Z snv: besides that emacs plugin
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2015-09-24T07:07:17Z yvm: snv, try acme.
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2015-09-24T07:10:37Z snv: yvm, thanks
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2015-09-24T07:11:34Z yvm: NP. Also lispworks.
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2015-09-24T07:13:31Z otwieracz: acme?
2015-09-24T07:13:39Z otwieracz: plan9's acme?
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2015-09-24T07:17:14Z yvm: Yep. It's pretty simple.
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2015-09-24T07:23:25Z otwieracz: But I'm not sure if lisp-suitable.
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2015-09-24T07:26:13Z yvm: Why? It's suitable as much as emacs. If you wear it accordingly.
2015-09-24T07:26:29Z otwieracz: How you manage to use REPL?
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2015-09-24T07:27:59Z yvm: With terminal.
2015-09-24T07:28:21Z otwieracz: And how you compile parts of code into REPL?
2015-09-24T07:28:47Z yvm: Copypaste.
2015-09-24T07:29:02Z otwieracz: Huh.
2015-09-24T07:29:08Z yvm: Also you can copy-execute.
2015-09-24T07:30:07Z |3b|: at that point, why not just use visual studio?
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2015-09-24T07:30:50Z yvm: Lispworks is more "suitable".
2015-09-24T07:30:59Z yvm: Acme is more simple.
2015-09-24T07:31:05Z dim: slime turns emacs into a proper CL IDE in my book
2015-09-24T07:31:30Z dim: and you can still use M-x evil and such if you're used to vim modal editing
2015-09-24T07:31:33Z dim: anyway
2015-09-24T07:32:11Z otwieracz: As a huge acme fan, I can not agree that is is lisp-suitable.
2015-09-24T07:32:14Z yvm: I use emacs too and don't understand why all this buzz around simplicity.
2015-09-24T07:32:40Z otwieracz: I mean, of course you can. Just like you can use notepad.exe on Windows and copy-paste to cmd.exe with sbcl running.
2015-09-24T07:32:57Z yvm: Isn't it simple?
2015-09-24T07:33:02Z |3b|: who wanted simple?
2015-09-24T07:33:18Z |3b| thought someone wanted an IDE that didn't look like emacs or vim
2015-09-24T07:33:49Z |3b|: "copy paste into terminal" is pretty much exactly the opposite of "IDE"
2015-09-24T07:34:21Z yvm: I thought someone asked for tool to start with.
2015-09-24T07:36:50Z |3b|: sure, but at the point where the tool doesn't have any specific support for CL, it isn't worth suggesting anything specific. "whatever you are used to" is a better answer
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2015-09-24T07:37:17Z jackdaniel: I've heard there's ed port for windows ;-)
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2015-09-24T07:39:15Z |3b|: slime (and implicitly emacs) is recommended because it has lots of specific CL support, and lots of users so it will continue to be maintained and improved
2015-09-24T07:40:11Z |3b| would like to see other equally well supported options based on other styles of editors, but even if i had time to implement them myself i don't use those other editors so probably wouldn't do a very good job
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2015-09-24T08:14:07Z yvm: acme's "point and click" interface is more similar to IDE IMO, also it is much simpler then emacs with it's modules, yet customizable. I think it's more general then special. Anyway, I don't get why I should not suggest a tool which I think is good.
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2015-09-24T08:18:36Z |3b|: you can, and other people can suggest that they disagree about whether it is good or not :)
2015-09-24T08:19:18Z |3b| thinks the "integrated" part of "integrated development environment" is more important than whether it is "point and click"
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2015-09-24T08:20:56Z yvm: Emacs is not IDE, though you can use it as IDE with "integrating" features you want.
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2015-09-24T08:21:11Z |3b|: right, slime is the IDE part
2015-09-24T08:21:45Z |3b|: and at least for some of us, the only reason to suggest emacs for CL to people who don't already use emacs
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2015-09-24T08:22:56Z |3b|: since incremental development and being able to interact with the state of the running program is one of the main benefits of lisp
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2015-09-24T08:24:51Z ralt: hi
2015-09-24T08:25:04Z ralt: is there a way, using sbcl, to have unbuffered IO to the filesystem?
2015-09-24T08:25:18Z yvm: I don't get why you mixing development technic, language benefits and development environments.
2015-09-24T08:25:28Z yvm: But never mind.
2015-09-24T08:26:10Z p_l: ralt: yes - you can both force-flush (better option, IMO) or you can use syscalls directly
2015-09-24T08:26:40Z ralt: p_l: you mean running force-output?
2015-09-24T08:27:24Z p_l: yes
2015-09-24T08:27:35Z p_l: You could also implement your own streams
2015-09-24T08:27:43Z ralt: p_l: that sounds like stream buffer though, not filesystem buffer
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2015-09-24T08:28:19Z ralt: or running force-output on a filestream flush the filesystem buffer?
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2015-09-24T08:34:04Z p_l: ralt: well, mind you, you can't realistically stop filesystem from buffering - you can only request that an I/O operation completes write to storage before it returns
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2015-09-24T08:36:20Z Vityok: ralt: do you mean being able to open(2) a file with O_NONBLOCK flag?
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2015-09-24T08:37:20Z ralt: Vityok: rather, open(2) a file with O_SYNC :)
2015-09-24T08:37:59Z ralt: (so, the opposite.)
2015-09-24T08:39:21Z p_l: I think there's a way to get a stream from fd in SBCL
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2015-09-24T08:40:09Z ralt: I guess i should ask on #sbcl
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2015-09-24T08:44:34Z p_l: ralt: sb-sys:make-fd-stream looks like it does something like that
2015-09-24T08:44:47Z ralt: p_l: looking
2015-09-24T08:45:08Z jackdaniel: ralt: why do you need O_SYNC? (curious)
2015-09-24T08:45:58Z ralt: jackdaniel: I'm writing a common token to both a file in the filesystem, and an external device (e.g. usb key), and I need to make sure both are written before returning
2015-09-24T08:46:09Z ralt: as in, *really* written
2015-09-24T08:46:19Z ralt: so that if a power cut happens, the common token will be on both
2015-09-24T08:46:35Z p_l: jackdaniel: O_SYNC or fsync(fd)/fdatasync(fd) necessary to properly handle file I/O in Unix
2015-09-24T08:46:53Z ralt: (this common token is used to login on the computer, see https://github.com/ralt/hermes :-))
2015-09-24T08:48:03Z jackdaniel: p_l: how so?
2015-09-24T08:48:07Z jackdaniel: ralt: ah
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2015-09-24T08:49:01Z jackdaniel: ralt: maybe you may use "sync" via external-command ?
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2015-09-24T08:49:34Z ralt: jackdaniel: it's too slow, "sync" is for the whole filesystem(s) while I only want a single file. Login should still be instant
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2015-09-24T08:49:42Z jackdaniel: right
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2015-09-24T08:50:41Z ralt: p_l: so, yeah, make-fd-stream only has an option for the stream buffer, which can be handled with force-output
2015-09-24T08:51:10Z ralt: err, finish-output
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2015-09-24T08:55:26Z p_l: ralt: I was thinking of first using sb-unix:open to get the fd with O_SYNC set up
2015-09-24T08:56:03Z ralt: p_l: oh
2015-09-24T08:56:32Z p_l: then make an fd-stream out of it
2015-09-24T08:56:59Z p_l: and possibly use finish-output to implement write batching
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2015-09-24T08:57:49Z ralt: hmmm
2015-09-24T08:58:01Z ralt: sb-posix:open and make-fd-stream seems to be the way to go, indeed
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2015-09-24T09:00:29Z p_l: you could probably keep the fd around to call (sb-posix:fsync (SB-POSIX::FILE-DESCRIPTOR out))
2015-09-24T09:00:35Z p_l: or something like that
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2015-09-24T09:03:04Z ralt: p_l: calling fsync actually sounds like much more convenient
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2015-09-24T09:08:42Z p_l: jackdaniel: POSIX filesystem semantics are such that non-synchronous I/O is "fast but loose"
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2015-09-24T09:10:40Z jackdaniel: p_l: given you have no power cuts any decent operating system uses it to increase performance without data loss what's what I expect from it (that's why my fstab doesn't force sync for mounting for instance)
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2015-09-24T09:12:50Z p_l: jackdaniel: fsync() and fdatasync() is so that you flush in the "correct" points instead of doing every write synchronously
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2015-09-24T09:13:19Z p_l: otherwise you're betting on no power cut in whatever timespan it takes for a total flush of the filesystem
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2015-09-24T09:41:32Z whiteline: is there any way to make saving and reading back in lisp expressions to a file safe? i could walk the saved tree and check that it only contains an allowed subset of expressions?
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2015-09-24T09:44:39Z ralt: whiteline: it depends on what you mean by "safe"
2015-09-24T09:46:04Z whiteline: ralt: safe against being a vector for arbitrary code execution
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2015-09-24T09:48:19Z resttime: I'm curious, what kind of program are you writing which needs you to save lisp expressions?
2015-09-24T09:48:33Z ralt: resttime: stumpwm does that
2015-09-24T09:48:47Z ralt: (to save the layout of frames/windows)
2015-09-24T09:49:14Z whiteline: resttime: serializing lisp data directly is very elegant way of saving state in general
2015-09-24T09:49:25Z whiteline: it's just a gae
2015-09-24T09:49:26Z whiteline: *game
2015-09-24T09:50:23Z resttime: wouldn't a domain specific language work better then?
2015-09-24T09:50:44Z resttime: Err, writing a DSL that is
2015-09-24T09:50:53Z ralt: I've already had stuff reading lisp files... but it implies trust in the file.
2015-09-24T09:51:09Z H4ns: whiteline: you could certainly write a reader that disallows all unsafe constructs, but it'd be a lot of work.
2015-09-24T09:51:13Z Vityok: what about different persistance libraries?
2015-09-24T09:51:14Z jackdaniel: you have to watch the reader macros (you #. for instance)
2015-09-24T09:51:16Z ralt: one way would be (load)ing the file in a closed-down package?
2015-09-24T09:51:32Z ralt: but... the file can change its package
2015-09-24T09:52:24Z Vityok: http://cliki.net/serialization
2015-09-24T09:52:46Z whiteline: H4ns: was thinking more like whitelisting
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2015-09-24T09:53:12Z Vityok: and there are more advanced systems to store Lisp data: object stores like http://cliki.net/ObjectStore
2015-09-24T09:53:30Z whiteline: Vityok: looks interesting
2015-09-24T09:53:53Z whiteline: i guess a DSL would be the most rational thing but it's less flexible
2015-09-24T09:54:25Z Vityok: but that's only for dealing with data; if you want to store/load/eval some expressions as a kind of scripts, then it is a completely different topic
2015-09-24T09:54:39Z whiteline: Vityok: no not scripts, just static data
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2015-09-24T09:56:40Z Vityok: then that's what serialization/object stores are for
2015-09-24T09:57:06Z Vityok: don't know how seriously they took security, but that might be a proper start
2015-09-24T09:58:00Z whiteline: hmm, thanks
2015-09-24T09:58:35Z Vityok: btw, you can even try using some JSON to make it possible to edit stored data and reading it back more or less secure
2015-09-24T09:58:38Z Vityok: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/#file-formats
2015-09-24T09:58:59Z resttime: I'll make a small plug for https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack
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2015-09-24T10:05:17Z resttime: whiteline, is the game to have the user able to create content like maps?
2015-09-24T10:05:28Z resttime: Security probably won't be an issue if you're the only one releasing the game
2015-09-24T10:06:21Z resttime: Since I imagine if someone who had the access to modify the lisp expressions on someone else's computer has all the priveleges to do whatever
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2015-09-24T10:08:48Z whiteline: resttime: well it's counter-intuitive to the end-user to have a program store data as executable code
2015-09-24T10:10:01Z whiteline: so it would be trivial for someone, if you just used print/eval, to trick someone to run code by sharing save files
2015-09-24T10:12:17Z resttime: Is the game designed such where one would want to share files at all? -> is basically what I'm wondering
2015-09-24T10:14:10Z |3b|: people trading saves isn't really a "design" thing, if you have save files at all and any state worth saving
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2015-09-24T10:15:13Z whiteline: yes and tricking someone to load a save file is trivial. and then they would certainly think the programmer an idiot for making savegames executable
2015-09-24T10:16:04Z |3b|: or to the extent it is, it is probably unintentional (for example if character creation is long involved process, people might share saves with pregenerated characters)
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2015-09-24T10:32:53Z resttime: whiteline, Can see an example of a save file for the game? I'm curious how you handle state
2015-09-24T10:33:05Z resttime: *I
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2015-09-24T10:38:38Z whiteline: resttime: i'm thinking before implementing
2015-09-24T10:39:15Z whiteline: right now i'm leaning towards creating a serialization DSL based on inheriting a serialization class with methods for each kind of object since there's not that many kinds
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2015-09-24T10:41:59Z jackdaniel: wasn't there a library cl-serialize?
2015-09-24T10:42:42Z jackdaniel: cl-store °
2015-09-24T10:42:52Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/
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2015-09-24T10:47:45Z attila_lendvai: there's also hu.dwim.serialize if you need speed, and maybe even flexibility over cl-store
2015-09-24T10:55:52Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: I'm working now on the reliable cross compiler framework for ecl
2015-09-24T10:56:32Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: great! I'll keep an eye, let me know if there's something to test
2015-09-24T10:56:59Z jackdaniel: OK, thanks - how your efforts came out? did you use qemu?
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2015-09-24T10:58:06Z jackdaniel: it's hard to work though because that tiny cat is really stubborn - he keps returning and sitting on my hand - so I code onehanded ;)
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2015-09-24T10:59:36Z attila_lendvai: no, I didn't manage to boot openwrt with qemu. maybe I'll try again with simple debian and see if a compiled binary on debian will work on openwrt
2015-09-24T11:00:06Z attila_lendvai: put it on your shoulder... :)
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2015-09-24T11:03:16Z jackdaniel: o, she came back again :p https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/647003257534083072
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2015-09-24T11:04:56Z ghard: Has anybody been working on a generic ODBC driver for cl-dbi ?
2015-09-24T11:06:44Z ghard: CLSQL seems to assume only MSSQL can do prepared statements.
2015-09-24T11:07:04Z ghard: And there only INSERT
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2015-09-24T11:08:15Z jackdaniel: dim: ↑
2015-09-24T11:08:32Z jackdaniel: ghard: check pgloader sources, maybe you'll find something there (it has numerous backends)
2015-09-24T11:08:50Z jackdaniel: ghard: (dim is the author of pgloader)
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2015-09-24T11:12:46Z ghard: Cheers. I'm considering extracting and adapting the ODBC DBD from CLSQL as it does many things right.
2015-09-24T11:13:32Z ghard: Besides refusing to do what I mentioned previously.
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2015-09-24T11:31:05Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: trying to cross compile now by rebinding *ld* and friends, but I get an "** Error code 1 when executing..." from RUN-PROGRAM of it. any way to make it print the error output of gcc besides messing with the code? binging *compile-verbose* t didn't help.
2015-09-24T11:32:35Z attila_lendvai: never mind, found the output in *inferior-lisp*
2015-09-24T11:32:39Z jackdaniel: if you run from console (not slime) the easiest would be running run-program :output t
2015-09-24T11:33:01Z attila_lendvai: must be something with swank, because I tried :print *standard-output*
2015-09-24T11:33:15Z jackdaniel: it doesn't work on slime because run-program uses file-descriptor while slime uses gray-streams without underlaying desc
2015-09-24T11:33:45Z attila_lendvai: oh, I see. anyways, I can move on, getting exciting... :)
2015-09-24T11:34:00Z jackdaniel: you want to cross compile only application or whole ECL?
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2015-09-24T11:36:40Z attila_lendvai: just one app. I want to run cl on my router! :)
2015-09-24T11:37:08Z jackdaniel: whole ECL is easier :p
2015-09-24T11:37:23Z jackdaniel: ./configure --host=arm-linux-gnueabi --enable-longdouble=no #assuming you have toolchain on your path
2015-09-24T11:37:31Z attila_lendvai: but I cannot run ecl, it only has 128M ram
2015-09-24T11:37:46Z jackdaniel: 128M is plenty of space for ecl…
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2015-09-24T11:38:18Z attila_lendvai: hrm, maybe I should add ecl to the openwrt packages
2015-09-24T11:40:42Z jackdaniel: if I'll succeed with crosscmp package then it will be easy to CC packages from user point of view but I see no reason not to put whole ecl on the device (compiled with --with-bytecmp=builtin --with-cmp=no if you don't plan to have gcc there)
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2015-09-24T11:42:12Z jackdaniel: :) does it involve tedious process of upstreaming? :p
2015-09-24T11:43:20Z attila_lendvai: openwrt is a standard linux, so it should just work out of the box
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2015-09-24T11:52:49Z Firedancer: What kind of stuff you do with openwrt?
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2015-09-24T11:53:55Z attila_lendvai: Firedancer: someone wants to pay me for writing a bluetooth-tcp/ip(mqtt) bridge based on a zero config mesh network. and I don't want to touch C if I don't have to
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2015-09-24T11:56:53Z Firedancer: uuu, sounds pretty interesting
2015-09-24T11:57:32Z jackdaniel did similar thing with sbc6410 - refused to write in C and put ECL on the device :p
2015-09-24T11:57:55Z jackdaniel: but I had there hand crafted gnu/linux not openwrt
2015-09-24T12:00:57Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: to cross-compile ecl I don't need to compile it on the host, right? I mean ecl's makefile will take care of that, right?
2015-09-24T12:02:34Z jackdaniel: well… no. You need to build host ECL first - for now with the same number of bits (32 / 64) and same things regarding long-long and long-double
2015-09-24T12:02:38Z attila_lendvai: all I need is to invoke ./configure with the proper parameters, right?
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2015-09-24T12:03:09Z attila_lendvai: ok
2015-09-24T12:03:10Z jackdaniel: I'm trying to make host features independant from target features
2015-09-24T12:03:13Z jackdaniel: but it's wip
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2015-09-24T12:05:12Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: so, I need this, right? compile on the host, install it somewhere, then configure the sources to the target, making sure some key params are the same, and then compile for the target giving it the host ecl binary (in the path?)
2015-09-24T12:05:31Z jackdaniel: yeah
2015-09-24T12:06:12Z jackdaniel: I'd like to make it "just ./configure" for the next release but it's plenty of work (whole cc framework that is) so no eta for that
2015-09-24T12:06:28Z jackdaniel: especially that I need to find clients for my company :D
2015-09-24T12:06:34Z jackdaniel: in the meantime
2015-09-24T12:06:42Z jackdaniel: (,hue)
2015-09-24T12:06:57Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: anything written up anywhere about this CC process?
2015-09-24T12:07:58Z jackdaniel: you can checkout branch "experimental" and read configure.android script
2015-09-24T12:08:10Z jackdaniel: I'm writing documentation in parallel now
2015-09-24T12:08:30Z jackdaniel: but generally - nothing
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2015-09-24T12:10:29Z jackdaniel: good idea
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2015-09-24T14:46:57Z flip214: is there something like MAPCAR that allows passing two arrays and a start offset, or do I have to LOOP?
2015-09-24T14:47:32Z Shinmera: flip214: mapcar does take multiple lists and you could wrap them both in an NTHCDR.
2015-09-24T14:48:16Z flip214: Shinmera: I have arrays as input...
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2015-09-24T14:48:43Z flip214: and ITERATEs in-vector doesn't have a start offset, so I need a manual index.
2015-09-24T14:50:06Z Shinmera: Oh-- arrays. I misread, sorry.
2015-09-24T14:50:39Z Shinmera: There's nothing built-in that I'm aware of.
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2015-09-24T14:51:50Z flip214: yeah, thanks... iterate will do
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2015-09-24T15:35:00Z pjb: attila_lendvai: once I had to write a small program on openwrt.  I tried Ruby and lost a lot of time with it (for lack of threads); then I did it in C. But indeed, it took way much more time than with ecl.  ECL is definitely the best choice.
2015-09-24T15:35:33Z Shinmera: Is there a way to immediately get the output from a program run by uiop:run-program? Something like (uiop:run-program "while true;do echo -e hi; sleep 1;done" :output *standard-output*) doesn't give me any output for seemingly forever.
2015-09-24T15:35:38Z attila_lendvai: pjb: I've succeeded to cross compile it. trying to make an openwrt package out of it.
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2015-09-24T15:36:01Z pjb: attila_lendvai: good.
2015-09-24T15:36:37Z attila_lendvai: the openwrt makefiles seems to be a deep forest though... trying hard to let lose my pattern matcher... :)
2015-09-24T15:36:40Z pjb: Shinmera: the problem here is that if you use the line discipline, you will have to fill the kernel buffer before you get any data.
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2015-09-24T15:37:21Z Shinmera: pjb: Well the terminal seems to get the output immediately, so shouldn't there be a way to do the same from Lisp?
2015-09-24T15:37:35Z pjb: Yes, using raw input.
2015-09-24T15:37:47Z pjb: "unbuffered".
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2015-09-24T15:38:32Z pjb: Unfortunately, it seems that uiop doesn't have a :unbuffered option.
2015-09-24T15:39:03Z Shinmera: I can't seem to find anything in UIOP related to that. Apparently I should be able to pass arguments to copy-stream-to-stream by doing (list stream :buffer-size n) but even negative values don't seem to cause anything there, so I'm not sure if that even works.
2015-09-24T15:40:33Z pjb: Shinmera: #+clisp ext::launch has a :buffered option.
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2015-09-24T15:43:41Z pjb: flip214: map works on vectors, not on arrays. So you will have to compute the indexes yourself.
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2015-09-24T15:47:27Z Shinmera: pjb: directly using sb-ext:run-program also seems to work fine.
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2015-09-24T16:11:03Z jasom: jackdaniel: got any time to talk ecl calling conventions?
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2015-09-24T16:24:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's a good way to do multithreaded programming in lisp? Not necessarily parallelizing algorthims so much as a main thread/worker thread design
2015-09-24T16:24:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been looking at cl-actors, but I'm not really sure whether to go with it or with something else.
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2015-09-24T16:25:04Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: bordeaux-threads.
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2015-09-24T16:26:28Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: If you just need to launch off tasks to be executed in the back there's simple-tasks.
2015-09-24T16:27:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to have a "background thread" that every once in a while cycles through the RSS feeds and updates them
2015-09-24T16:27:34Z jasom: jackdaniel: mainly my question is, on a call of more than ECL_C_ARGUMENTS_LIMIT, the first ECL_C_ARGUMENTS_LIMIT arguments are duplicated *both* on the C stack and the lisp stack?
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2015-09-24T16:27:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, possibly, that listens for messages about new feeds to fetch
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2015-09-24T16:39:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any things to watch out for when using threads with clack and ningle?
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2015-09-24T16:46:08Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: just the usual
2015-09-24T16:46:13Z jasom: which is bad enough, IMO
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2015-09-24T16:49:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are dynamic variables thread-local? (assuming that the object they reference isn't changed by another thread)
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2015-09-24T16:50:19Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: I told you bordeaux-threads.  bordeaux-threads:make-thread
2015-09-24T16:51:07Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: no, but dynamic bindings *are* thread-local
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2015-09-24T16:51:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: thanks, I was hoping that there was a higher-level wrapper
2015-09-24T16:52:01Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: there are higher level libraries.
2015-09-24T16:52:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: So, basically, (setf *var* val) changes for all threads unless they are in a let-binding?
2015-09-24T16:52:32Z pjb: yes, but see bordeaux-threads:make-thread
2015-09-24T16:52:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok
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2015-09-24T16:54:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just saw why you referred me there, sorry about that
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2015-09-24T19:37:26Z PuercoPop: flip214: You could use map and displaced arrays, but looping seems a better idea.
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2015-09-24T19:43:24Z pjb: unless you already have a function for the body.
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2015-09-24T19:44:23Z pjb: (map 'vector (function +) (nsubseq #(1 2 3 4 5) 1 4) (nsubseq #(hello world 10 20 30 50) 2)) #| --> #(12 23 34) |#
2015-09-24T19:45:40Z Bicyclidine: nsubseq?
2015-09-24T19:46:49Z pjb: Yes.
2015-09-24T19:47:07Z pjb: external in package: #<Package "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.UTILITY">
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2015-09-24T19:47:39Z Bicyclidine: of course.
2015-09-24T19:48:04Z Bicyclidine: i guess you could define your own map function and write some compiler macros.
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2015-09-24T19:53:28Z PuercoPop: pjb: nice!
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2015-09-24T21:28:31Z francogrex: hi how to do that without multiple C style iterations? http://paste.lisp.org/display/155711
2015-09-24T21:29:51Z Xach: francogrex: i'm just curious: what will you do with the result?
2015-09-24T21:29:54Z Bicyclidine: i'd define a list-of-bits function. you could use a lookup table if the range is fixed, or just use logbitp a couple itmes
2015-09-24T21:35:15Z francogrex: Xach: I'm using a connection to Netica API (bayesian networks) and at some point need to build what is called conditional probability tables something like here: https://hpearsonresearch.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/bayesian-networks-continued
2015-09-24T21:36:09Z francogrex: mine are yes/no or 0/1 and the combinations can go up to (exp 2 10)..
2015-09-24T21:36:27Z Xach: francogrex: i ask because sometimes it's better to just use integers directly for their bits rather than making lists of bits.
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2015-09-24T21:38:25Z francogrex: hmm it maybe an possibility I have to think about it more
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2015-09-24T21:41:04Z francogrex: though in this case, (see here http://paste.lisp.org/display/155711#1), I "hard code" the combinations of (expt 2 3) manageable
2015-09-24T21:41:35Z jlarocco: (loop for i from 0 below 32 collecting (map 'list (lambda (x) (- (char-code x) (char-code #\0 ))) (format nil "~5,'0b" i)))
2015-09-24T21:41:35Z jlarocco: i guess
2015-09-24T21:41:35Z jlarocco: off the top of my head I can't think of a way to do it that isn't iterating over the string under the hood
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2015-09-24T21:41:36Z francogrex: they need to be enter as pointer of ints
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2015-09-24T21:44:21Z francogrex: jlarocco: nice trick the (- (char-code x) (char-code #\0)) ... thanks
2015-09-24T21:46:00Z Bicyclidine: eg (defun list-of-bits (digits integer) (nreverse (loop for i below digits collecting (if (logbitp i integer) 1 0))))
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2015-09-24T21:48:09Z PuercoPop: francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/+3C5B/2 One can hide the iteration with a map
2015-09-24T21:48:16Z francogrex: Bicyclidine: also
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2015-09-24T21:49:31Z francogrex: PuercoPop: ok thanks several good suggestions
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2015-09-24T21:49:44Z jlarocco: nice use of #'digit-char-p there
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2015-09-24T21:51:14Z Bicyclidine: Also?
2015-09-24T21:51:40Z francogrex: yes I meant also a very good alternative you gave me
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2015-09-24T22:30:59Z Cthulhux`: hm
2015-09-24T22:31:19Z Cthulhux`: i want to compile my vim with racket but it wants a "scheme version"
2015-09-24T22:31:30Z Cthulhux`: where can i find racket's scheme version?
2015-09-24T22:31:43Z Xach: this is not a great place to discuss scheme
2015-09-24T22:31:54Z Xach: #scheme might be better, or maybe there's a racket channel?
2015-09-24T22:32:33Z Cthulhux`: i just thought someone here uses scheme too. :/
2015-09-24T22:33:41Z Xach: Cthulhux`: that might be so, but this channel is only for common lisp
2015-09-24T22:34:04Z Cthulhux`: there is no "general lisp" channel on freenode? that's sad.
2015-09-24T22:34:18Z Xach: Cthulhux`: I think some people use ##lisp for that
2015-09-24T22:34:32Z Cthulhux`: uhm
2015-09-24T22:34:33Z Cthulhux`: ok
2015-09-24T22:34:36Z Cthulhux`: that's confusing.
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2015-09-24T22:34:54Z Shinmera: History, yadda yadda. http://cliki.net/IRC
2015-09-24T22:35:58Z Cthulhux`: why is this #lisp and not #commonlisp then?
2015-09-24T22:35:59Z Cthulhux`: :s
2015-09-24T22:36:10Z Shinmera: I just said. Because history is a thing.
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2015-09-24T22:36:41Z Shinmera: This discussion has been done infinitely more than necessary too. Just accept the way things are.
2015-09-24T22:36:54Z Cthulhux`: :/
2015-09-24T22:36:59Z Cthulhux`: i was never there!
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2015-09-24T22:37:36Z pjb: Cthulhux`: because there is only one lisp remaining, Common Lisp: One Lisp to rule them all, One Lisp to find them, One Lisp to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
2015-09-24T22:37:38Z Bicyclidine: "general lisp" isn't much of a category, anyway. even if it was it's hard to see how compiling vim would relate too closely :p
2015-09-24T22:37:47Z resttime: I heard it was because the common lispers came and staked their claim first on freenode
2015-09-24T22:37:52Z Bicyclidine: does this mean we have to throw the CLHS into a volcano
2015-09-24T22:38:17Z pjb: CL is the fusion of all the diverging lisps pre-80s.   It's design purpose is to supersede all the lisps all over the world.
2015-09-24T22:38:41Z Cthulhux`: Bicyclidine: that's easy: vim has a native mzscheme (now: racket) binding, so it's probably a lisp-related topic how i can find its version,. :-)
2015-09-24T22:38:46Z pjb: So there's ##lisp and #racket and #scheme but they are archeological channels.
2015-09-24T22:38:59Z Cthulhux`: pjb: at least clojure will probably die out soon as all hypes do.
2015-09-24T22:39:06Z pjb: It's like vim; it has no purpose, being entirely superseded by emacs.
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2015-09-24T22:39:40Z Bicyclidine: i mean, if i came into #python or whatever it is asking about how to install the python 2.3 plugin to my lab's inhouse software they probably wouldn't care
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2015-09-24T22:41:39Z pjb: Cthulhux`: you might propose to rename #lisp #mordor, this could be considered, but that's it.
2015-09-24T22:42:00Z Cthulhux`: one does not simply /join #mordor
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2015-09-24T23:04:54Z jdtest: pjb: I don't think calling great projects on their own feet and wuth great adventages (and dusadventages) obsolete is fair
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2015-09-24T23:05:29Z jdtest: sorry for typos, writing from phone
2015-09-24T23:05:32Z pjb: jdtest: anything non CL is fair game here.
2015-09-24T23:05:45Z pjb: jdtest: if you want to discuss their merit, go to ##lisp.
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2015-09-24T23:08:32Z aeth: pjb: vim has a purpose, just not in programming, but for sysadmins. It's almost certainly installed on any Unix boxen. Unfortunately, emacs isn't.
2015-09-24T23:08:44Z jdtest: im a big proponent of cl, but its just arrogant to claim something is worse without any arguments
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2015-09-24T23:08:57Z pjb: aeth: yes, emacs is installed on any unix box.
2015-09-24T23:09:26Z pjb: aeth: I actually even install emacs BEFORE the unix box installation is finished, before I have to edit the first configuration file in /etc/.
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2015-09-24T23:09:45Z aeth: I have used boxen before without emacs on it. Some ultra-minimal default install Unixes/Linuxes do this.
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2015-09-24T23:10:00Z aeth: I used to play around with lots of different Unixes/Linuxes on VirtualBox. A few did this.
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2015-09-24T23:10:56Z pjb: aeth: *I* install *MY* own unix boxes, and I can assure you emacs is the first thing that gets installed, even before booting those unix boxes, and nano is the first thing that gets deleted after those unix boxes are installed.
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2015-09-24T23:12:28Z aeth: pjb: well yeah some people who don't know what they're doing think that nano is an acceptable substitute to emacs and pair vim and nano in the default instead of vim and emacs or something. And since at one point everyone and their cat had their own distro, this probably happened often enough.
2015-09-24T23:12:57Z aeth: No one is evil enough to only include ed, though. So you can almost be certain vim's on a box.
2015-09-24T23:13:11Z Cthulhux`: no
2015-09-24T23:13:20Z Cthulhux`: gentoo, for example, has nano instead
2015-09-24T23:13:29Z Cthulhux`: vi = command not found
2015-09-24T23:13:33Z aeth: lol
2015-09-24T23:13:36Z pjb: But I delete nano before I boot gentoo the first time.
2015-09-24T23:13:42Z Cthulhux`: (linuxers and their total destructions of standards...)
2015-09-24T23:13:45Z aeth: As I said, some people who don't know what they're doing. Like apparently the people behind Gentoo :-p
2015-09-24T23:13:51Z pjb: I mean, it's really very cool to install a unix box from another unix box…
2015-09-24T23:14:00Z Cthulhux`: they wrote a longish blog post about that
2015-09-24T23:14:10Z Cthulhux`: TL;DR: "vim is too complicated for our users"
2015-09-24T23:14:19Z pjb: nano is horrible, for the cockpit errors it allows.
2015-09-24T23:14:21Z Cthulhux`: pjb, gentoo is a linux, not a unix.
2015-09-24T23:14:32Z pjb: linux is a unix.
2015-09-24T23:14:37Z Cthulhux`: no it's not
2015-09-24T23:14:42Z aeth: Cthulhux`: do they also not ship with bash? because bash is a very ugly and complicated language, too. Just ship with Python only for scripting or something :-p
2015-09-24T23:14:43Z Cthulhux`: it does not even want to
2015-09-24T23:14:46Z pjb: I didn't write UNIX™.
2015-09-24T23:14:53Z Xach: please don't allow pjb to troll you into his nonsense discussions.
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2015-09-24T23:15:06Z Cthulhux`: linux resembles a broken unix but it is not a unix.
2015-09-24T23:15:12Z Cthulhux`: jpico is an acceptable nano IMO.
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2015-09-24T23:15:22Z Cthulhux`: at least it does not break my line endings
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2015-09-24T23:15:41Z pjb: Xach: you mean I'm too generous with people, expecting them to be idiots, not trolls?  Sorry, my bad, I'll try to re-adjust my cursors.
2015-09-24T23:15:47Z aeth: pjb: Linux is a Unix clone. It is *possible* for it to be certified as a Unix with a little bit of effort, but why bother? Linux the brand has been largely replacing Unix the brand in the past 15 years.
2015-09-24T23:15:51Z Cthulhux`: aeth: why not common lisp? it works as a shell!
2015-09-24T23:16:06Z Xach: pjb: I mean you are a really horrible troll and this channel would be better if you left.
2015-09-24T23:16:31Z Cthulhux`: aeth: to be precise, linux is a clone of minix which is a clone of unix. and it deliberately does NOT support POSIX by default.
2015-09-24T23:16:36Z PuercoPop: Everytime I've installed gentoo the first thing i install was vim so I didn't have to open nano. vim was quicker to install than Emacs.
2015-09-24T23:16:56Z aeth: Cthulhux`: Right, but it could try to become a Unix with minimal effort, but it won't because it doesn't have to because Linux is outcompeting it.
2015-09-24T23:17:13Z aeth: I mean even OS X became a Unix iirc. It's a certification thing.
2015-09-24T23:17:21Z Cthulhux`: UNIX <> Unix
2015-09-24T23:17:47Z Cthulhux`: "Unix" is not a certification thing.
2015-09-24T23:18:01Z Xach: If you'd like to discuss it further, please use private messages.
2015-09-24T23:18:43Z Cthulhux`: Xach takes all the fun off here :|
2015-09-24T23:18:47Z aeth: Cthulhux`: interesting, you're right, UNIX is the trademark, strange. But we are off topic
2015-09-24T23:18:54Z pjb: Cthulhux`: that's why there's #lispcafe.
2015-09-24T23:19:02Z aeth: Computer systems exist to make things needlessly complicated.
2015-09-24T23:19:10Z aeth: Except lisp, of course.
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2015-09-24T23:21:23Z phf: is there some mnemonic to remember the difference between princ and prin1?
2015-09-24T23:22:00Z pjb: princ prints characters, prin1 prints one lisp object.
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2015-09-24T23:22:43Z phf: oh that's pretty good
2015-09-24T23:23:52Z aeth: Is this the right way to write the formula for sum i=0 to n i^2? i.e. (n(n + 1)(2 * n + 1)) / 6
2015-09-24T23:23:55Z aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155715
2015-09-24T23:24:14Z aeth: I think without (the integer ...) Lisp isn't smart enough to realize that these shortcut summation formulae yield integers instead of rationals.
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2015-09-24T23:24:26Z aeth: Or at least, it's not guaranteed to be smart enough to do that.
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2015-09-24T23:25:59Z pjb: If you used (/ … 6) instead of (* … 1/6) the compiler might have it easier to infer an integer result.
2015-09-24T23:26:04Z phf: aeth: i would've written it as (/ (* n (+ n 1) (+ (* 2 n) 1)) 6)
2015-09-24T23:27:33Z aeth: pjb: I kept trying like 5 different ways to represent it, and using trivial-benchmark and not really seeing a difference
2015-09-24T23:27:45Z aeth: I think I'll go back to (/ ... 6) though
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2015-09-24T23:36:04Z aeth: Is this code portable? i.e. the declare, the check-type, and the the
2015-09-24T23:38:16Z pjb: It's conforming.
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2015-09-24T23:39:04Z fiddlerwoaroof just realized that he had to parallel sets of classes that basically did the same thing
2015-09-24T23:39:13Z pjb: You could have written: (declare (type (integer 0 *) n)) (check-type n (integer 0 *)) and if you had, the check-type would be dead code.
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2015-09-24T23:39:32Z aeth: I can see why people would think Lisp code isn't for numerical stuff. Although I think the solution to the boilerplate here is to write a macro, right? i.e. for all integer formulae that take integers from 0 to infinity and return an integer, the three boilerplates should be identical.
2015-09-24T23:39:37Z pjb: aeth: meaning that it's a very bad idea to declare the types.
2015-09-24T23:40:39Z phf: pjb: you would typically not annotate until you start profiling
2015-09-24T23:41:17Z jasom: it might be smart enough to infer integer result with floor
2015-09-24T23:41:20Z phf: pjb: at which point that function you're annotating is already sufficiently beefy that the annotations don't stand out as much
2015-09-24T23:41:24Z phf: eeh
2015-09-24T23:41:32Z phf: that is of course directed at aeth
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2015-09-24T23:42:15Z aeth: phf: but what stops me from composing small functions like this that are annotated with inline?
2015-09-24T23:42:52Z pjb: aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/+3C5F/1
2015-09-24T23:42:53Z aeth: e.g. writing the list of this as functions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation#Some_summations_of_polynomial_expressions
2015-09-24T23:43:23Z pjb: aeth: notice the % on the function in which the types are declared.
2015-09-24T23:44:08Z pjb: They're bitches of functions, since you have to check the type of the argument before calling them. Hence the %.  % = bitches.
2015-09-24T23:44:19Z aeth: oh I see
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2015-09-24T23:44:44Z aeth: pjb: but doesn't calling a function itself cost a lot when the functions themselves are this fast?
2015-09-24T23:44:56Z aeth: i.e. these sorts of trivial arithmetic formulae are really, really fast
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2015-09-24T23:45:28Z pjb: aeth: when you call a normal lisp function you can expect something sane to occur.  Either you get some valid result, or you get some error signaled.  But when you have type declarations (and low enough safety optimization level), then you get nasal daemon, which is the definition of a bitch function.
2015-09-24T23:46:29Z pjb: ((lambda (n) (* n (1+ n) (1+ (* 2 n)) 1/6)) 3.0) #| --> 14.0 |#  works for me.
2015-09-24T23:47:20Z aeth: At the moment I put check-type in this stuff because I've had bad experiences with (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) before.
2015-09-24T23:47:49Z pjb: aeth: of course, but not in the same function with the declare.
2015-09-24T23:47:54Z aeth: ah
2015-09-24T23:47:56Z jasom: (safety 1) and inlining should be good enough
2015-09-24T23:48:10Z pjb: As I mentionned, if you declare and check-type the same type, the check-type will be dead-code and eliminated.
2015-09-24T23:48:11Z jasom: unless you expect that your external API will be called in a tight-loop
2015-09-24T23:48:44Z aeth: jasom: safety 1 probably should be good enough, does safety 1 in sbcl still check for array out of bounds? Because that's where I've gotten the most trouble when improving an optimized function. I now comment out the optimize stuff when doing that until I test it.
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2015-09-24T23:48:55Z jasom: aeth: yes
2015-09-24T23:49:03Z aeth: I mean, this isn't C, I like it when array bounds are checked.
2015-09-24T23:49:25Z pjb: In anycase, optimization levels should be reserved to the end user, and never set in a library (or application bundled in quicklisp).
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2015-09-24T23:50:28Z aeth: pjb: This is Project Euler stuff. It's way too easy at the lower levels (especially since some things are trivial (reduce #'+ ...)) so I've kind of gotten *way* too involved in optimizing.
2015-09-24T23:50:46Z pjb: Yes, that's one big problem with project euler.
2015-09-24T23:50:48Z aeth: So it won't be published because that's against the rules, although I might wind up with a math library out of it.
2015-09-24T23:51:11Z aeth: i.e. the way around the rules might just be to write a math library that happens to make the Euler problems trivial, and then I can publish the library.
2015-09-24T23:51:20Z aeth: (I mean the problems that aren't already trivial)
2015-09-24T23:53:20Z aeth: I actually haven't gotten that far in Project Euler because I've gotten into a trap of constantly shaving off time on problems I've already solved by using better optimizations and/or better algorithms.
2015-09-24T23:54:08Z aeth: Some of these are so fast that trivial-benchmark isn't even showing a median other than 0, which kind of makes it harder to get the absolute fastest.
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2015-09-24T23:55:00Z aeth: (More practically, I am using this to learn how to write extremely fast Lisp so that I can finish my game engine, which is way more numerically involved than I first expected.)
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2015-09-24T23:56:03Z pjb: aeth: You could write a define-function macro that would use check-type while testing and debugging, and declare type and declare optimize when in production.
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2015-09-24T23:57:25Z aeth: Right. Euler's all integer stuff (at least as far as I've gone), which means I can definitely write some macros. The only tricky part is that sometimes I want to use fixnum instead of integer because it's low enough and it does lead to a speed up.
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2015-09-24T23:58:52Z aeth: Just jumping around the problem list, it looks like it's integers the whole time. I wonder if there's something equivalent but where the problems involve matrices and trig because matrices and trig is what game engines and graphics code seem to use.
2015-09-24T23:59:50Z pjb: aeth: ints are C symbols.
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2015-09-25T00:00:38Z Bike: optimizing matrix operations is a neverending hell. don't do it yourself.
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2015-09-25T00:02:29Z aeth: Bike: I don't think there's a way around that with graphics and game physics. And unfortunately, using CFFI for C++ code seems like a different kind of neverending hell so someone has to write that CL physics library.
2015-09-25T00:03:09Z Bike: nah. use https://common-lisp.net/project/lisplab/ or something
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2015-09-25T00:03:24Z Bike: do your own physics, sure, but don't reimplement BLAS, because your implementation will suck
2015-09-25T00:03:38Z aeth: I currently use sb-cga.
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2015-09-25T00:03:58Z Bike: oh. that works.
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2015-09-25T00:13:01Z aeth: At some point, though, replacing parts or all of sb-cga might be necessary to achieve speed ups, unfortunately. I'm not going to do that yet, but I might have to at some point if I keep working on the game engine.
2015-09-25T00:14:21Z Bike: i would be curious what in nikodemus's code isn't efficient enough
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2015-09-25T00:15:12Z aeth: We'll find out when I get to the optimization part of my game engine. I'm nowhere near that yet.
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2015-09-25T00:16:18Z Bike: wait, so why are you doing euler?
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2015-09-25T00:16:44Z aeth: Bike: practice
2015-09-25T00:17:54Z aeth: Complicated projects will never be finished, so I've never gotten to the point where I do certain things in Common Lisp. Euler's problems are very small and self-contained so I can write finished programs, and get some experience with optimizing, testing, benchmarking, etc.
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2015-09-25T00:18:50Z Bike: mm... a lot of optimization isn't something you're going to get from math problems, though.
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2015-09-25T00:19:26Z Bike: well, other than the basic lesson that eliding some type checks is going to do shit compared to finding a better way to do it, i guess
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2015-09-25T00:20:20Z aeth: Well, I have done some fancy things, e.g. fixed-sized, typed vectors
2015-09-25T00:20:45Z aeth: And I did one thing as a two dimensional array (I have never needed to make one before)
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2015-09-25T00:23:46Z Bike: i mean, take an actual example, you know quake III, right? they want to normalize some vectors and have to do vector normalization, which means computing x^-1/2. usual way to do that's a lookup table, but that's not good enough, so they do some math (or find someone who knows math) and use newton's instead, and thus we get the legendary "// what the fuck?"
2015-09-25T00:24:20Z Bike: that's the kind of thing you might learn from project euler; but in writing a whole game you also have to know that it's worthwhile to look into this one small thing in the first place, and not all the other small things you could speed up, and you're probably not gonna get that from euler, i think
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2015-09-25T00:26:19Z Bike: so i guess what i'm saying is you should consider just working on your game engine? i dunno.
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2015-09-25T00:27:07Z aeth: Well, yes, I have to get back to it at some point, but I'm doing lots of exercises because there's lots of little things I wasn't aware of in Common Lisp, and those little things add up.
2015-09-25T00:27:29Z aeth: Euler just happens to be a big convenient exercise list.
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2015-09-25T00:27:46Z Bike: could you not have learned about two dimensional arrays from your engine?
2015-09-25T00:28:09Z Bike: sorry, i shouldn't hassle you too much.
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2015-09-25T00:28:17Z aeth: Euler problems are small and easily testable, with a correct answer. I can refactor and implement them in lots of different ways.
2015-09-25T00:28:31Z aeth: With the game engine I often find myself thinking "Is this correct or is this subtly wrong?"
2015-09-25T00:28:40Z aeth: What I need is a big pile of tests for the numerical stuff.
2015-09-25T00:28:45Z aeth: e.g. matrices
2015-09-25T00:29:09Z aeth: The problem is that I've been using Common Lisp like a scripting language, and that's not good enough in a game engine.
2015-09-25T00:30:01Z aeth: My programming background is in scripting languages like Python and Lua, and so just using Common Lisp for something is usually enough of a speed boost that I usually haven't needed to think about the performance of my code at all.
2015-09-25T00:30:07Z rme: What's the cliché?  Common Lisp is two programming languages: A language for writing programs fast, and then a language for writing fast programs.
2015-09-25T00:30:34Z Bike: but why do you need to think about it now?
2015-09-25T00:31:13Z aeth: Because rme's right. Common Lisp can be used as a substitute to e.g. Python and it can be used as a substitute to e.g. C. It's simultaneously a scripting language and a systems language.
2015-09-25T00:31:40Z Zhivago: Of course, you could say the same of javascript.
2015-09-25T00:31:51Z Zhivago: Or python, for that matter.
2015-09-25T00:31:57Z Bike: i don't see how it follows that you should have to learn about cramer's sucking before you get some guns on screen
2015-09-25T00:32:30Z aeth: Zhivago: Yes, but the difference is that CL's a genuinely well-designed language.
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2015-09-25T00:33:12Z Zhivago: I don't think that you can claim that CL was designed.
2015-09-25T00:33:20Z Zhivago: You could make that claim of perhaps scheme.
2015-09-25T00:33:25Z aeth: Most languages are either scripting languages (not good with performance) or systems languages (very inconvenient to use without a scripting language in large programs)
2015-09-25T00:33:41Z Zhivago: CL was compromised out of the smashing together of many different lisp systems using a hammer.
2015-09-25T00:33:50Z aeth: Scripting languages are getting better (iirc Python added type annotations) but for the most part, in the former category you rewrite the slower parts in C or C++
2015-09-25T00:34:00Z Zhivago: Which has resulted in a large number of weirdnesses and weaknesses.
2015-09-25T00:34:18Z Zhivago: Just look at CL's 'type system' to see some of the most severe.
2015-09-25T00:34:40Z aeth: Zhivago: Scheme's beautiful and has nicer names, etc., but CL's faster and more flexible because CL comes from the LispM heritage.
2015-09-25T00:34:52Z Zhivago: That reasoning is complete nonsense.
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2015-09-25T00:35:25Z Zhivago: CL does not come from a lispm heritage in particular.
2015-09-25T00:35:42Z Zhivago: You may need to review the history of CL and why it was created as a kind of compatibility layer.
2015-09-25T00:36:20Z Zhivago: Also, claiming that one language is faster than another is completely specious.
2015-09-25T00:36:26Z Zhivago: Don't confuse languages and implementations.
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2015-09-25T00:38:27Z aeth: OK, CL can be faster in a more portable way afaik.
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2015-09-25T00:38:42Z Zhivago: You're making the same error.
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2015-09-25T00:39:02Z aeth: CL can be really fast, it doesn't have to be.
2015-09-25T00:39:06Z aeth: But it can be really fast.
2015-09-25T00:39:11Z Zhivago: And again ...
2015-09-25T00:39:45Z Zhivago: CL doesn't have a speed -- CL implementations do.
2015-09-25T00:40:11Z Zhivago: If you want to talk about language design defects that make fast implementations easier or harder, then you can do that.
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2015-09-25T00:40:17Z aeth: I disagree. CL has features designed with speed in mind, even though they don't have to be implemented in a fast way.
2015-09-25T00:40:36Z Zhivago: But talking about a language having speed is just wrong and a sign of sloppy thinking.
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2015-09-25T00:42:16Z Zhivago: aeth: So, what kind of speed were they thinking of when they added support for the dynamic redefinition of classes and their instances? :)
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2015-09-25T00:43:49Z aeth: Zhivago: You don't have to use those features.
2015-09-25T00:44:00Z Zhivago: But the language requires they be supported ...
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2015-09-25T00:44:10Z Zhivago: How can an implementation avoid paying for them?
2015-09-25T00:44:13Z Zhivago: bbiab
2015-09-25T00:44:41Z aeth: The fast parts of the code can be full of defun %foo, instead of implementing it in some equivalent way with fancy MOP use.
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2015-09-25T00:56:18Z PuercoPop: aeth: MOP has nothing to do with what Zhivago is pointing out. SBCL for example does not use type information of the slots due to redefinition for example. Also returning 'useful' (for lack of a better term) values in predicate functions like digit-char-p can stress the gc unnecessarily as Henry Baker points out in his Critique of DIN Kernel Lisp. Also lacking immutable variants of vectors (and sequences) prevents f
2015-09-25T00:56:18Z PuercoPop: aster/better 'sharing when not sharing' of stuff like strings between threads. Also scheme is pretty flexible, check type racket for an example of how they contort the language.
2015-09-25T00:59:19Z aeth: PuercoPop: I agree that CL's sequences aren't ideal.
2015-09-25T00:59:42Z PuercoPop: Well no language is ideal, but CL is more than good enough!
2015-09-25T00:59:58Z aeth: for now.
2015-09-25T01:00:24Z aeth: If CL ever saw widespread use it would need some improvements in a few areas.
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2015-09-25T01:01:02Z attila_lendvai: popularity is irrelevant in that... then it already needs those improvements.
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2015-09-25T01:01:43Z aeth: attila_lendvai: Popularity is entirely relevant. More users means more people potentially improving implementations or making new ones.
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2015-09-25T01:06:44Z aeth: Also, the more people use a program, the more important certain improvements to the code become.
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2015-09-25T01:07:24Z smokeink: is (slime-restart-inferior-lisp) the only way to restart the inferior lisp process?
2015-09-25T01:08:10Z aeth: smokeink: if you're in CL-USER at the REPL you can run (exit) and manually restart
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2015-09-25T01:08:17Z aeth: There are probably a few other ways, too
2015-09-25T01:08:47Z aeth: exit looks like it's non-portable, but it is in some implementations.
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2015-09-25T01:14:17Z PuercoPop: Btw attila_lendvai it would be nice if you ever get to documenting some of the hu.dwim stuff. afaiu it has pretty nifty stuff like continuations that can be serialized to disk and a CLOS based AST and walker for CL.
2015-09-25T01:17:15Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: we rarely read documentation ourselves, so I wouldn't hold my breath... but most projects have extensive unit tests, that pretty much document how it is supposed to work. but I admit that there should be at least a couple of sentence about every project, what it does, and what is its status...
2015-09-25T01:23:15Z aeth: Documentation is probably one of the weaker parts of the Lisp library ecosystem imo.
2015-09-25T01:26:36Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: and they restrictions/caveats. But anyhow, my intent was to compliment the hu.dwim software 'ecosystem', which with better documentation I think would have more widespread adoption.
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2015-09-25T01:27:26Z PuercoPop: aeth: Coming from Python, definitely. But you get used to the 'lower bar' of just a readme and docstrings. Maybe an example.lisp.
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2015-09-25T01:29:13Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: thanks! I also think that there's a lot of value lying there dormant... :/ we made some money using those tools, but not more than what we would have earned as employees in the same time. then the team disintegrated and now we don't work full time on lisp. looks like I'll have a project now, but it's nothing that would need the interesting hu.dwim parts...
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2015-09-25T01:33:26Z attila_lendvai makes a note to update the :description in the .asd files
2015-09-25T01:34:59Z PuercoPop: 'It is better to have lisped and lost, that to have never lisped at all'
2015-09-25T01:36:24Z cyraxjoe: heheh nice phrase  PuercoPop
2015-09-25T01:37:07Z attila_lendvai: heh :) I don't consider that story to be over, but my idealism is driving me farther from it, and the others are also on different paths for now professionally. but we're long time friends, so...
2015-09-25T01:39:54Z attila_lendvai waves and heads bedwards
2015-09-25T01:40:40Z doesthiswork: Is there a big list somewhere of things different people want changed about CL?
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2015-09-25T01:50:23Z Bike: there's a few on the cliki
2015-09-25T01:50:57Z PuercoPop: cyraxjoe: thanks Joel
2015-09-25T01:51:19Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20Extensions%20To%20ANSI http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20-%20Next%20Generation in order of wackiness
2015-09-25T01:51:33Z PuercoPop: doesthiswork: There Despite its title, paper a mention has a few ideas: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CritLisp.html
2015-09-25T01:51:48Z PuercoPop: and there was a mailing list I think
2015-09-25T01:53:40Z doesthiswork: thank you
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2015-09-25T03:48:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-25T03:56:48Z snv1: doesthiswork, I've written my own CL like Lisp instead. https://github.com/saniv/symta/blob/master/doc/symta-by-example.md
2015-09-25T03:57:08Z doesthiswork: interesting
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2015-09-25T04:07:19Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-09-25T04:08:31Z beach: What's up?
2015-09-25T04:08:44Z drmeister: I've been timing things.
2015-09-25T04:08:58Z drmeister: Looking at what is taking so time
2015-09-25T04:09:07Z drmeister: Can I show you something?
2015-09-25T04:09:09Z beach: Sure.
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2015-09-25T04:10:26Z drmeister: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/drmeister/7744668341ca6a303d05/raw/83a05c5be4af3ef5ef9fac8e62c2246aedd292b4/gistfile1.txt
2015-09-25T04:10:39Z drmeister: Give me a sec
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2015-09-25T04:11:19Z drmeister: (progn (trap-execution "start") (car *l*) (trap-execution "stop"))
2015-09-25T04:11:47Z drmeister: So I put a breakpoint in the C++ function trap_execution
2015-09-25T04:12:18Z drmeister: Then I single step through instructions from the end of the first (trap-execution "start") to the start of the second (trap-execution "stop")
2015-09-25T04:12:46Z drmeister: This is just to get an idea of what is going on in a (car *l*) (trap-execution ...) pair of function calls.
2015-09-25T04:12:58Z drmeister: This is with cclasp generated code.
2015-09-25T04:13:00Z beach: I see.
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2015-09-25T04:14:37Z beach: It looks like a lot of work.
2015-09-25T04:14:41Z drmeister: Hmm, there are no line numbers - and the original paste is clipped
2015-09-25T04:14:42Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/7744668341ca6a303d05
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2015-09-25T04:15:54Z drmeister: To summarize, there is a lot of Boehm GC steps in there.
2015-09-25T04:16:07Z beach: I wonder why.
2015-09-25T04:16:18Z beach: Are you trying to allocate something?
2015-09-25T04:16:45Z drmeister: It's a stack frame, for the argument to the (trap-execution ...) call
2015-09-25T04:17:21Z drmeister: I don't have an efficient way of implementing a stack using the Boehm GC.
2015-09-25T04:17:33Z beach: I see, yes.
2015-09-25T04:17:50Z drmeister: So I allocate a frame on the heap and then free it again - that is very inefficient.
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2015-09-25T04:18:43Z drmeister: Alternatively I could allocate a stack larger than I will ever need and maintain a stack within it.
2015-09-25T04:18:45Z beach: So that inefficiency is gone in the MPS version, then?
2015-09-25T04:19:13Z drmeister: Yes, but Clasp+MPS is slower for other reasons - I have to do similar tracing to see what's going on there.
2015-09-25T04:19:27Z drmeister: I'm talking with some people from Ravenbrook tomorrow morning.
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2015-09-25T04:19:52Z beach: Because the slowness is related to the garbage collector?
2015-09-25T04:20:09Z drmeister: Yeah, the MPS version runs at about half the speed of the Boehm version.
2015-09-25T04:20:34Z beach: Despite these heap allocations in the Boehm version?
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2015-09-25T04:20:39Z drmeister: That's currently - I'm talking to them tomorrow about tuning.
2015-09-25T04:20:41Z beach: That's.... interesting.
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2015-09-25T04:21:20Z intel: My program is stuck in an infinate recursion, how do I get back to the repl?
2015-09-25T04:21:25Z drmeister: What you are seeing there is after I removed a lot of instructions from cc_safe_fdefinition, cc_call and cc_symbol_value.
2015-09-25T04:21:57Z drmeister: intel: It depends on what implementation you are using - I assume you tried Control-C?
2015-09-25T04:22:09Z beach: intel: C-c C-c in SLIME.
2015-09-25T04:22:18Z intel: clisp
2015-09-25T04:22:25Z beach: [I think.  My fingers know, but I don't.]
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2015-09-25T04:22:47Z drmeister: intel: Sorry - I don't know clisp.
2015-09-25T04:23:18Z intel: Bugger.
2015-09-25T04:23:25Z drmeister: beach: And yes, that is despite these heap allocations in the Boehm version.
2015-09-25T04:23:34Z beach: intel: I recommend you use SLIME.
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2015-09-25T04:28:36Z beach: drmeister: I understand you are really getting into instruction tracing.
2015-09-25T04:28:47Z beach: drmeister: It's fun isn't it?
2015-09-25T04:28:57Z drmeister: It's pretty addictive.
2015-09-25T04:29:15Z drmeister: You can see exactly what's going on.
2015-09-25T04:29:32Z beach: Yes, that was my argument from the start.
2015-09-25T04:29:36Z drmeister: There's no mystery anymore why things are slow.
2015-09-25T04:30:01Z drmeister: If I trace a C++ function call - there's nothing to it, it's a call.
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2015-09-25T04:31:09Z drmeister: I squeezed a lot of instructions out of the cc_safe_fdefinition, cc_safe_symbol_value and cc_call intrinsic functions.
2015-09-25T04:31:57Z drmeister: Currently the two big instruction hogs are the GC_malloc and GC_free and the lambda-list processing for C++ functions.
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2015-09-25T04:32:35Z beach: Do you need to care about lambda-list processing for C++ functions?
2015-09-25T04:32:48Z drmeister: I'm convinced now that I need some sort of optimized versions of the lambda list handling code for C++ functions.
2015-09-25T04:32:51Z beach: I would think that once you call a C++ function, it will remain in C++ for some time.
2015-09-25T04:33:14Z Bike: do you mean like, the code to take a list and parse it into keyword arguments on the C++ end?
2015-09-25T04:33:35Z drmeister: Good question - the C++ functions have regular C++ argument lists.  There needs to be a wrapper to convert from Common Lisp arguments to C++ arguments.   That's the assumption that I've always worked with.
2015-09-25T04:34:13Z beach: I wouldn't expect many calls from Common Lisp to C++.  Would you?
2015-09-25T04:34:25Z drmeister: Bike: No, at this point a CL call and a C++ call have the same structure - the first three arguments are in registers and the rest of the arguments are on the stack.  It's the standard C++ calling convention.
2015-09-25T04:34:38Z Bike: then i'm not sure what processing there is to do...
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2015-09-25T04:35:52Z drmeister: beach: I don't know how may C++ functions there are that I rely on.  I put in a counter that increments whenever a C++ function is called and I added a line that prints the number called using TIME.
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2015-09-25T04:36:51Z beach: Oh, I see.  These are C++ functions that implement part of your system code?
2015-09-25T04:37:47Z drmeister: Bike: You make a good point, but for instance, this function  trap_execution has the lambda-list:   (&optional message)
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2015-09-25T04:38:19Z Bike: function callable from CL?
2015-09-25T04:38:23Z drmeister: And the C++ function has the form:   void trap_execution(Str_sp message)
2015-09-25T04:38:34Z drmeister: Yes, it's callable from CL.
2015-09-25T04:38:58Z drmeister: So the wrapper takes whatever you give it:  (TRAP-EXECUTION) or (TRAP-EXECUTION "start")
2015-09-25T04:39:22Z drmeister: And either puts the string argument into a frame to pass as "message" to the function or NIL.
2015-09-25T04:39:35Z Bike: What's a frame?
2015-09-25T04:39:39Z Bike: like a stack frame?
2015-09-25T04:40:06Z drmeister: Yeah, like a stack frame.  It's really just a list of evaluated arguments that are passed directly to the C++ function.
2015-09-25T04:40:15Z Bike: Isn't that the same thing that's passed to the CL function?
2015-09-25T04:40:22Z Bike: You said they used the same calling convention.
2015-09-25T04:40:48Z drmeister: It's a bit difficult to describe because there are a couple of stages (part of why it's slow).
2015-09-25T04:41:21Z drmeister: (1) the CL call (TRAP-EXECUTION) is compiled into a regular C++ call with no arguments.
2015-09-25T04:41:36Z Bike: Wait, hang on, "regular C++ call" to trap_execution?
2015-09-25T04:42:20Z drmeister: Yes, you can call:    trap_execution(clasp_make_string("foo"))   from C++
2015-09-25T04:42:47Z Bike: Okay, but you said no arguments, and trap_execution() is an invalid call with that declaration.
2015-09-25T04:43:42Z drmeister: Right, that's what the wrapper does, it generates a new call on the stack that either has the default NIL or the argument if it was supplied.
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2015-09-25T04:44:05Z Bike: At... runtime?
2015-09-25T04:44:12Z drmeister: Yes - at runtime.
2015-09-25T04:44:29Z drmeister: You don't know if the argument will be supplied or not until runtime.
2015-09-25T04:44:40Z Bike: well you do sometimes, but yeah i see.
2015-09-25T04:44:48Z drmeister: (apply #'trap-execution nil)
2015-09-25T04:44:56Z Bike: that's the not sometimes.
2015-09-25T04:45:13Z Bike: but i mean, 99% of the time you just have a call, so you could probably optimize that in your compiler.
2015-09-25T04:45:16Z drmeister: Even the sometimes that you do - you can't change the call.
2015-09-25T04:45:27Z Bike: Why not?
2015-09-25T04:45:33Z Bike: you're the one compiling it, aren't you
2015-09-25T04:45:44Z drmeister: Because if I change the callee then the call won't work anymore.
2015-09-25T04:46:21Z drmeister: But please - challenge my assumptions - these are deeply engrained - maybe they need fresh evaluation.
2015-09-25T04:46:25Z Bike: Okay, I think I'm misunderstanding something fundamental about how you're compiling.
2015-09-25T04:46:36Z Bike: I mean, look, you start with a CL form, and LLVM IR comes out, right? That's compilation?
2015-09-25T04:46:43Z drmeister: Right.
2015-09-25T04:46:46Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2015-09-25T04:47:09Z drmeister: (TRAP-EXECUTION) -->   call @TRAP-EXECUTION( void )
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2015-09-25T04:47:12Z Bike: So why can you not compile (trap-execution) into trap_execution(nil)?
2015-09-25T04:49:27Z drmeister: My understanding was that I can't compile calls that tailor to the callee.  If the callee changes then the call will cause problems.
2015-09-25T04:49:44Z drmeister: I thought you taught me that.
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2015-09-25T04:49:54Z Bike: What??
2015-09-25T04:49:56Z drmeister: Way back.
2015-09-25T04:50:01Z Bike: You mean, like, if trap-execution is redefined?
2015-09-25T04:50:06Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-09-25T04:50:36Z drmeister: I thought I need a standard calling convention - that every call follows.  The callee's need to interpret it.
2015-09-25T04:51:31Z Bike: trap-execution is internal, why would it ever be redefined?
2015-09-25T04:52:20Z drmeister: The executable could be recompiled and then FASL files will be out of date.
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2015-09-25T04:53:08Z drmeister: Now, functions could have multiple entry points.
2015-09-25T04:53:45Z Bike: Okay, yeah, okay, so you have trap-execution-no-args that puts a NIL in the zeroth register and proceed sto trap-execution-one-arg.
2015-09-25T04:53:58Z drmeister: There could be a entry points for callers with 0, 1, 2, 3 required arguments or 0 required 1 optional, 1 required 1 optional etc.
2015-09-25T04:54:38Z drmeister: Right - since most calls have fewer than three arguments - this would be a win.
2015-09-25T04:54:51Z Bike: and you don't have that now.
2015-09-25T04:55:12Z Bike: (do you pass the number of arguments in another register, or something?)
2015-09-25T04:55:15Z drmeister: No, but it's something I've been thinking about - now I see the value quite clearly.
2015-09-25T04:55:18Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-09-25T04:55:25Z drmeister: The calling convention is actually:
2015-09-25T04:56:26Z Bike: so right now you have trap-execution defined like (progn (when (zerop num-args) (setf zero-arg nil)) everything else)?
2015-09-25T04:56:36Z drmeister: (T_O* closed-env, T_O* arglist, size_t num_args, T_O* arg0, T_O* arg1, T_O* arg2)
2015-09-25T04:57:13Z Bike: looking forward to calling something with four billion arguments to really flex that size_t
2015-09-25T04:57:26Z drmeister: Sort of - if I lump the wrapper and function together.
2015-09-25T04:57:41Z Bike: Do you use the same wrapper for every function?
2015-09-25T04:57:50Z Bike: ...does the wrapper look at the lambda list at runtime?
2015-09-25T04:58:12Z drmeister: No, there is a different wrapper for every arity.
2015-09-25T04:58:37Z drmeister: There is a different wrapper for every arity of the C++ function being wrapped.
2015-09-25T04:58:45Z Bike: is it not inlined?
2015-09-25T04:59:17Z drmeister: No, I think that would be challenging.
2015-09-25T05:00:04Z Bike: okay, so when you have any call to C++ right now, it's something like arity_wrapper(actual_function, args)? so you're actually doing (at least) two hardware calls for each call?
2015-09-25T05:00:05Z drmeister: These are the C++ functions - they shouldn't be called that often.  This is a case where I was looking at what is involved in calling a C++ function.
2015-09-25T05:00:25Z drmeister: Yes
2015-09-25T05:00:51Z Bike: i see. that could be faster, but it doesn't seem like it would be apocalyptic.
2015-09-25T05:00:59Z Bike: anyway, if you have multiple entry points you can use that for CL functions too.
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2015-09-25T05:04:05Z Bike: i admit i'm still not sure i understand why you'd ever actually redefine this internal gizmo... the most i can see is having an indirect function pointers
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2015-09-25T05:05:00Z drmeister: I can also define C++ functions like add(int x, int y) and call it directly from CL.
2015-09-25T05:05:24Z drmeister: "directly" == through a wrapper that converts immediate fixnums to int's
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2015-09-25T05:05:56Z Bike: well, or assembly routines, yeah
2015-09-25T05:06:26Z drmeister: I figured I was going to be converting fixnum's to int's  somewhere in the call, either within the prelude of the function or in the wrapper.
2015-09-25T05:06:42Z Bike: probably.
2015-09-25T05:06:54Z drmeister: The advantage of the way I did it is that it's all generated by C++ template code - so I can apply it to C++ functions (libraries) that I didn't write.
2015-09-25T05:06:58Z Bike: er, "or assembly routines" was like "C++ functions or assembly routines", nothing about the wrapper, sorry
2015-09-25T05:08:16Z drmeister: Translation between CL types and C++ types has to happen - there's no way to avoid that.  When the types are the same the translation should be a NOP.
2015-09-25T05:08:23Z Bike: sure s ure.
2015-09-25T05:08:51Z Bike: well i mean, once your optimizer is fancier you can probably throw unboxed objects around, but i guess leave that for later.
2015-09-25T05:09:00Z drmeister: lambda list processing also has to happen.  Keyword arguments and &rest arguments have to be prepared for the C++ function.
2015-09-25T05:09:26Z drmeister: Possibly, I don't know how at this point.
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2015-09-25T05:09:50Z Bike: multiple entry points, one that converts the shit and one after, i guess.
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2015-09-25T05:13:28Z drmeister: For instance, these are the C++ functions that implement LIST and LIST*
2015-09-25T05:13:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TFQpA45W/
2015-09-25T05:14:08Z Bike: is that supposed to be 16 lines long?
2015-09-25T05:14:23Z drmeister: I cut off the second one.
2015-09-25T05:15:03Z loke: Hello bike and drmeister
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2015-09-25T05:15:20Z Bike: helloke.
2015-09-25T05:16:06Z drmeister: The lambda lists are in the text strings #define ARGS_cl_list "(&rest objects)"  - these are parsed at startup and converted into C++ objects that know how to take a list of arguments passed on the stack (regular C calling convention) and in this case cons them into a list.
2015-09-25T05:16:28Z Bike: ah, good, magic preprocessing, everyone's favorite :p
2015-09-25T05:16:37Z Bike: that's the _G() thing?
2015-09-25T05:17:00Z drmeister: No, that's just an old debugging macro.
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2015-09-25T05:18:10Z drmeister: Lower down in the file is a function call that is invoked at startup that passes the function pointer and the string and that's when the lambdaListHandler is created.
2015-09-25T05:18:16Z akkad: any heavy slime users here? That would be interested in sharing their command frequency?
2015-09-25T05:18:22Z loke: akkad: sure
2015-09-25T05:18:28Z loke: but how can I get to it?
2015-09-25T05:18:37Z akkad: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/command-frequency.el
2015-09-25T05:18:42Z White_Flame: pretty much C-c C-k here ;)
2015-09-25T05:18:51Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2015-09-25T05:18:56Z akkad: M-x package-install command-frequency
2015-09-25T05:18:59Z aeth: Why is the compile-to-C-or-C++ approach more popular than a bytecode approach for CL?
2015-09-25T05:18:59Z loke: Akkad: that's a Xah page. I block those.
2015-09-25T05:19:14Z akkad: package-install then :P
2015-09-25T05:19:20Z White_Flame: aeth: only 1 or 2 CLs compile to C
2015-09-25T05:19:32Z White_Flame: most compiled CLs go straight to machine code
2015-09-25T05:19:43Z aeth: afaik clisp is *the* modern bytecode CL
2015-09-25T05:19:43Z loke: akkad: Still Xah code. Not allowed on my system. :-)
2015-09-25T05:19:50Z akkad: k
2015-09-25T05:19:57Z Bike: also, you should probably write all this down in an internals manual, so you don't need to explain it when some idiot like me comes along knowing nothing
2015-09-25T05:20:27Z loke: akkad: Exactly what information are you interested in? I';m sure I can get it for you anyway.
2015-09-25T05:20:42Z drmeister: Bike - it's helpful to go over it again.  I'm questioning my assumptions here.
2015-09-25T05:20:46Z akkad: "tell me what you don't know so I can tell you"
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2015-09-25T05:21:05Z White_Flame: aeth: one of the primary benefits is speed.  compiling to machine code fundamentally isn't that much harder than compiling to a separate byte code (which is just virtual machine code), and you don't have to then also write an interpreter
2015-09-25T05:21:27Z White_Flame: instead of writing an interpreter, you have to make lots of ABI decisions
2015-09-25T05:21:50Z drmeister: I think the big win would be improving the stack implementation - that's a big time waster.
2015-09-25T05:22:05Z drmeister: It shouldn't be anything more than pointer bumping.
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2015-09-25T05:22:23Z Bike: it's more than addition and subtraction? that's pretty scandalous.
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2015-09-25T05:22:37Z drmeister: The lambda list processing could be improved by multiple entry points.
2015-09-25T05:23:17Z drmeister: Bike: Yeah - it's the Boehm GC - I couldn't find anything in the API for defining a stack where I could define the moving end of the stack.
2015-09-25T05:24:00Z Bike: you're... GCing the stack?
2015-09-25T05:24:26Z beach: drmeister: I kind of don't understand why you are trying to optimize calls from Common Lisp to C++.  Wouldn't it be better to redefine system functions in Common Lisp at the end of the bootstrapping process so that they are compiled by the Common Lisp compiler?
2015-09-25T05:24:33Z drmeister: Yes, I have two stacks, the C++ stack and another that I use to build lists of evaluated arguments.
2015-09-25T05:24:49Z Bike: hooboy.
2015-09-25T05:25:15Z drmeister: beach: That's another approach - I'd need a lot of Common Lisp code to replace the C++ functions.
2015-09-25T05:26:18Z Bike: well it is a bit silly, like, how does it actually help to have LIST in C++ there? if nothing else you could write it as IR.
2015-09-25T05:26:27Z drmeister: I'll still need the C++ calls, it is afterall the primary purpose of Clasp - interface to C++
2015-09-25T05:27:04Z beach: drmeister: But, like I said, those calls will be infrequent.  Once you call a C++ function, I would imagine it would stay in C++ for a while.  No?
2015-09-25T05:27:05Z drmeister: Well, the C++ becomes IR.  Also, I need it there to bootstrap.
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2015-09-25T05:28:40Z drmeister: It depends on the function I'm calling.  Currently the entire math stack other than inlined fixnum addition and subtraction are C++ functions.
2015-09-25T05:29:13Z drmeister: I don't see anything wrong with calling C++ functions if I reduce the overhead.  Currently it's large.
2015-09-25T05:29:45Z drmeister: Sure, I can't inline them.
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2015-09-25T05:30:42Z drmeister: Anyway, I see what I need to do next, improve this stack thing - it's awful.
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2015-09-25T06:50:13Z zyg: I'd like to convert an infix expression into an prefix, what parser should I use, and is there some available package for it?
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2015-09-25T06:57:57Z splittist: zyg: here is one approach http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~russell/code/logic/algorithms/infix.lisp
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2015-09-25T06:58:47Z splittist: But your problem description is quite vague.
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2015-09-25T06:59:13Z splittist: Sometimes when I'm wondering what libraries are out there I look at quickdocs http://quickdocs.org/search?q=infix
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2015-09-25T07:01:33Z akkad: "pcall-worker-1" Priority 0 State #1="Waiting for condition variable Anonymous condition variable" any tips for debugging a thread in this state?
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2015-09-25T07:03:14Z Shinmera: akkad: Get a hold of the condition and notify it to resume the thread?
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2015-09-25T07:05:28Z zyg: splittist: this time I'm converting simple math expression, in this case the coefficients in this document http://www.musicdsp.org/files/Audio-EQ-Cookbook.txt
2015-09-25T07:05:36Z akkad: Shinmera: ok thanks
2015-09-25T07:06:04Z zyg: splittist: thanks for the quickdocs.org, didn't know it existed, has always used cliki.net
2015-09-25T07:06:16Z Shinmera: Some of you may recall my complaining a few months back about my hunchentoot based webserver crashing every now and again due to running out of FDs (and having thousands of lingering ones). The server now has an uptime of 57 days, so it seems that issue got fixed in a QL update.
2015-09-25T07:06:29Z smokeink: how to make a cffi binding for this function? extern "C" void f(int a, int &b) {  b = a; }  . (defcfun ("f" f) :void (a :int) (b :int)) (setf x 2) (f 3 x) gives Unhandled memory fault at #x1
2015-09-25T07:07:01Z Bike: pass by reference in C? does that work?
2015-09-25T07:07:11Z splittist: Shinmera: same sbcl (?) version?
2015-09-25T07:07:26Z Shinmera: splittist: I didn't update SBCL from what I can recall.
2015-09-25T07:07:41Z Shinmera: (that's SBCL 1.2.9)
2015-09-25T07:08:14Z smokeink: i compiled it with g++   , extern "C" is for avoiding c++ name mangling
2015-09-25T07:08:34Z Bike: well, yes, but as far as i know int &b isn't valid C.
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2015-09-25T07:09:09Z Bike: i guess it might just be a pointer? hell if i know.
2015-09-25T07:11:12Z smokeink: so cffi works only with C?
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2015-09-25T07:12:42Z Bike: i think that's the usual. I don't know the C++ ABI other than that it's complicated and inconsistent.
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2015-09-25T07:13:23Z Shinmera: Usually the deal is to write a C library to interact with your 'extern C' C++ stuff.
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2015-09-25T07:14:23Z smokeink: yes it seems i got trapped again by these opencv automatically generated bindings - some of them are wrong and have to be tackled manually
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2015-09-25T07:50:10Z neurostorm: Any pointers to ressources when going from Clojure to Lisp? Is there something like the Leiningen build tool for Lisp, would the be Roswell?
2015-09-25T07:50:37Z p_l: ASDF
2015-09-25T07:50:55Z p_l: roswell iirc is about setting up implementations and the like
2015-09-25T07:51:13Z loke: neurostorm: p_l is correct, but it's not a 1:1 mapping.
2015-09-25T07:51:25Z loke: neurostorm: You also want Quicklisp
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2015-09-25T08:00:14Z White_Flame: FYI, quicklisp can dowload & load lisp systems (programs/libraries/etc).  ASDF defines each system.
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2015-09-25T08:17:50Z neurostorm: Is there some essential libraries that one should use?
2015-09-25T08:19:37Z Shinmera: The right advice is to use what you need.
2015-09-25T08:19:54Z Shinmera: So answering that question requires knowing what you want to do.
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2015-09-25T08:22:36Z splittist: neurostorm: install your lisp (ccl, sbcl, ...). Install quicklisp. Decide what you want to do. See if there are quicklisp libraries that might assist (e.g. by looking at quickdocs.org). ... Profit!
2015-09-25T08:23:12Z splittist: (I'm skipping the editor configuration, which is also doable with quicklisp if you emacs.)
2015-09-25T08:23:16Z neurostorm: Yes, sounds fair. There could be some general library like https://github.com/amalloy/useful that i just needed to know about :-)
2015-09-25T08:24:02Z Shinmera: neurostorm: I guess alexandria would be that
2015-09-25T08:24:25Z White_Flame: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/08/july-2015-download-stats.html
2015-09-25T08:24:27Z Shinmera: Though there's at least a brazillion utility/toolkit libraries out there (and many libraries ship their own 'toolkit' sections), so.
2015-09-25T08:24:47Z White_Flame: the most downloaded systems are basic compatibility, feature, and helper libs
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2015-09-25T08:24:50Z splittist: neurostorm: generally you potter around a bit, build a few small functions, realize they are already included in common lisp, and repeat.
2015-09-25T08:24:51Z neurostorm: Ah, nice stats!
2015-09-25T08:25:14Z Shinmera is still surprised every time he finds his libs on that list
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2015-09-25T08:28:00Z neurostorm: One thing i really likes about Clojure is the ability to use literals for vectors and hash-maps. Is there a library which supplies something like that or is that not the way to do it?
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2015-09-25T08:28:46Z ralt: there's already literals for vectors with #(1 2)
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2015-09-25T08:29:33Z jdtest: cl21 provides ht literals
2015-09-25T08:29:38Z ralt: for hash maps, there isn't, but I know cl21
2015-09-25T08:29:47Z Shinmera: Usually instead of hash tables if you need a map you write an alist or plist.
2015-09-25T08:29:56Z ralt: that ^
2015-09-25T08:29:57Z Shinmera: That is, if you need them literally.
2015-09-25T08:30:42Z ralt: cl21 is big... getting it just for #h() is overdone
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2015-09-25T08:30:51Z Shinmera: neurostorm: For getting started with CL the usual recommendation is to read PCL
2015-09-25T08:30:58Z Shinmera: minion: tell neurostorm about PCL
2015-09-25T08:30:58Z minion: neurostorm: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-09-25T09:19:08Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-09-25T09:19:21Z djh:  \o
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2015-09-25T09:21:04Z jackdaniel: jasom: it's standard C calling convention afaik – if function takes indefinite number of arguments, then the first argument (on the C side) is number of following arguments and it's resolved with varags
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2015-09-25T09:34:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: well, unfortunately it's not standard C calling convention.  The number of arguments has to be dertermined in a way or another, and in C, there's no standard way to do that.  For example, printf determines the number of arguments it uses from the number of format specifiers.  A lot of C functions determine it by a terminating null arguments.  Sometimes, a number of argument is explicitely passed, but I don't have the
2015-09-25T09:34:59Z pjb: impression it's the most often occurence in C programs.
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2015-09-25T09:35:58Z pjb: jackdaniel: on the other hand, when implementing lisp in C, this is indeed often how it's done, since then the lisp compiler can generate the code to pass the computed number of arguments.
2015-09-25T09:36:02Z jackdaniel: pjb: that's what I said - if number of arguments is constant then we have constant on C side, and if it's not then we have first argument indicating number of arguments
2015-09-25T09:36:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: No, you said it was a standard C calling convention. It is not.
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2015-09-25T09:37:43Z jackdaniel: pjb: I said that ECL utilizes standard C calling convention *and* (that might be the word you miss there) if function takes indefinite number of arguments (we use this trick) that the first argument …
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2015-09-25T09:41:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: unfortunately, no, you didn't said "*and*", you said " – " there, and this doesn't mean the same at all.
2015-09-25T09:42:24Z jackdaniel: then I'm sorry about that - apparently commas doesn't map well between different languages
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2015-09-25T09:42:38Z pjb: You didn't write a comma either.
2015-09-25T09:42:40Z jackdaniel: commas and "-"
2015-09-25T09:42:43Z jackdaniel: ↑
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2015-09-25T09:43:05Z jackdaniel: tzw. myślniki  ;-)
2015-09-25T09:43:24Z jackdaniel: pauses°
2015-09-25T09:44:29Z pjb: Otherwise, indeed, commas are important. https://cybertext.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/a-light-hearted-look-at-how-punctuation-can-change-meaning/
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2015-09-25T10:21:39Z easye-ipad: Would it be possible to somehow add rate limiting (target bandwith) to Darkma?
2015-09-25T10:21:56Z easye-ipad: Err Drakma
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2015-09-25T10:55:28Z Heranort: Ah.. I met a strange problem, could anyone help me? the problem is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/155750
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2015-09-25T10:57:38Z jackdaniel: Heranort: you want to work on the place there
2015-09-25T10:58:06Z jackdaniel: you pop from list which is now hashtable value independant (unless you destructively modify cons)
2015-09-25T10:58:09Z Heranort: yeah, I want to erase the car of the list in every time
2015-09-25T10:58:36Z jackdaniel: you could do (symbol-macrolet ((l (gethash  …))) …)
2015-09-25T10:58:44Z jackdaniel: instead of let - then it should work
2015-09-25T10:58:52Z Heranort: but why does the first version works?
2015-09-25T10:58:55Z jackdaniel: I suppose, didn't read the code very carefully
2015-09-25T10:59:15Z jackdaniel: because you work on place in the hashtable
2015-09-25T10:59:38Z jackdaniel: but when you do (let ((l (gethash …)) …) - then l just points to the list stored in hashtable
2015-09-25T10:59:50Z jackdaniel: and when you do (pop l) then this "pointer" changes, not the list stored in ht
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2015-09-25T11:00:19Z Heranort: so you mean that when i let l as (gethash key table), then what i did with l is just modifying the l and not the hashtable?
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2015-09-25T11:00:38Z jackdaniel: exactly!
2015-09-25T11:00:48Z jackdaniel: if you want to modify the hashtable you have to use symbol-macrolet
2015-09-25T11:00:53Z Heranort: Got that! Thanks!
2015-09-25T11:00:54Z jackdaniel: which expand to the full accessor
2015-09-25T11:01:01Z jackdaniel: yw :)
2015-09-25T11:01:09Z Heranort: Okay~
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2015-09-25T11:10:19Z phf: anybody know why cmucl sometimes lands in swank-io-package on slime start?
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2015-09-25T11:21:22Z Devon: Got a function to parse strings into numbers without losing precision?	#+CCL (let* ((r 1442831525805007/1000000) (s "1442831525.805007") (n (read-from-string s)) (j (read-from-string (format nil "~99F" (st-json:read-json-from-string s))))) (list r s n j (- n r) (- j r))) => (1442831525805007/1000000 "1442831525.805007" 1.4428315E+9 1.4428315E+9 -128.0 -128.0)
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2015-09-25T11:25:22Z |3b|: Devon: i think i used wu-decimal last time i needed that
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2015-09-25T11:36:12Z Devon: |3b|: Thanks, I've re-invented this wheel too many times already.
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2015-09-25T11:39:05Z dim: there's parse-number in QL too
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2015-09-25T11:39:39Z dim: http://cliki.net/parse-number
2015-09-25T11:39:55Z Shinmera: And parse-float
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2015-09-25T11:40:38Z |3b|: those both parse "1.234" to a float though, don't they?
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2015-09-25T11:43:21Z dim: CL-USER> (describe (parse-number:parse-number "1.234")) 1.234 [single-float]
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2015-09-25T11:43:46Z |3b|: for some things (money is a common example) it is nice to be able to parse "1.234" as a rational instead, since not many people write it as "617/500" or even "1234/1000"
2015-09-25T11:44:16Z dim: for money when available just use arbitrary precision numbers
2015-09-25T11:44:32Z Shinmera: parse-float accepts a :type, which can be 'rational.
2015-09-25T11:44:49Z Devon: #+CCL (let* ((r 1442831525805007/1000000) (s "1442831525.805007") (n (read-from-string s)) (w (wu-decimal:parse-decimal s))) (list r s n w (- n r) (- w r))) => (1442831525805007/1000000 "1442831525.805007" 1.4428315E+9 1442831525805007/1000000 -128.0 0)	; nice!
2015-09-25T11:44:49Z Shinmera: (type-of (parse-float:parse-float "1.234" :type 'rational)) => RATIO
2015-09-25T11:44:50Z |3b|: cool, will have to remember that
2015-09-25T11:45:48Z |3b|: dim: that's the idea... just need some way to get from the "1.234" syntax someone wrote to a file to CLs arbitrary precision numbers and bacl
2015-09-25T11:45:51Z |3b|: *back
2015-09-25T11:46:11Z dim: floats aren't really arbitrary in CL, are they?
2015-09-25T11:46:19Z Devon: #+CCL (float-precision (read-from-string "1442831525.805007")) => 24
2015-09-25T11:46:32Z |3b|: dim: right, which is why we can't use READ-*
2015-09-25T11:46:39Z |3b|: we need to read into a rational
2015-09-25T11:46:45Z dim: yeah, but I mean, even in memory, not speaking about io
2015-09-25T11:46:52Z Shinmera: Well, the CLHS only specifies a minimal size.
2015-09-25T11:46:55Z dim: rational are arbitrary, fair enough, ok
2015-09-25T11:47:06Z Shinmera: *minimal precision
2015-09-25T11:47:15Z dim: I missed that use case for rationals, which should have been obvious now that I see it, thanks
2015-09-25T11:47:29Z dim: so actually PostgreSQL type mapping should map numeric into rational I guess
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2015-09-25T11:48:24Z attila_lendvai has a rejected patch that makes postmodern not to truncate rationals silently... :(
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2015-09-25T11:48:58Z attila_lendvai: FTR, https://github.com/attila-lendvai/Postmodern/commits/hu.dwim
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2015-09-25T12:59:38Z Xof: I wrote a *read-default-float-format* 'rational patch once upon a time
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2015-09-25T13:18:30Z Devon: Ah, far simpler to bind *read-default-float-format* to long-float
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2015-09-25T14:07:44Z Cymew: Anyone know if there's a reason why USOCKET:SOCKET-SERVER is the only function in the USOCKET-SOCKET-* family that lacks documentation?
2015-09-25T14:08:08Z Cymew: Sorry USOCKET:SOCKET-* family, that is.
2015-09-25T14:08:43Z eudoxia: isn't it like a shortcut to another function?
2015-09-25T14:09:05Z Cymew: Hmm. Is it?
2015-09-25T14:09:21Z Cymew: Nah, doesn't look like it.
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2015-09-25T14:31:51Z francogrex: I get this known error:  :UTF-8 c-string decoding error: the octet sequence #(146) cannot be decoded.
2015-09-25T14:32:10Z francogrex: but what is the char of octet sequence #(146) ?
2015-09-25T14:33:07Z francogrex: I retrieved the hex data converted to integer I see that char-code 102 corresponds to octet 146 is this right?
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2015-09-25T14:43:46Z please_help: is there a way to obtain scheme syntax/semantics on top of a common lisp?
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2015-09-25T14:45:16Z dlowe: Implement scheme in Common Lisp.
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2015-09-25T14:46:10Z please_help: I would've thought someone had already done that by now!
2015-09-25T14:46:27Z Shinmera: What for?
2015-09-25T14:46:39Z dlowe: The people with such skill already like Common Lisp
2015-09-25T14:46:44Z dlowe: so there's not much motivation
2015-09-25T14:47:06Z Shinmera: Cliki has some stuff. http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=scheme
2015-09-25T14:47:07Z dlowe: The people who like Scheme have already written Scheme compilers in Scheme
2015-09-25T14:47:09Z Xach: Well, there's Rees's pseudoscheme
2015-09-25T14:47:18Z dlowe: so they use those instead.
2015-09-25T14:47:29Z Xach: but it needs love to get working in recent CL (and lots of work to look like recent Scheme)
2015-09-25T14:47:49Z please_help: I dislike the ~p and lack of marking for side-effecty procs, but especially, I just can't get over the function/funcall.
2015-09-25T14:48:13Z Xach: please_help: if that is the case, CL is probably not for you, but there are many other things you may like better.
2015-09-25T14:48:42Z please_help: I'm always open to suggestions ;)
2015-09-25T14:49:11Z Xach: my suggestion is to get over it and use CL
2015-09-25T14:49:26Z Xach: I already like it and think it is great. I don't have suggestions of other things to use, sorry.
2015-09-25T14:49:33Z please_help: o-ok
2015-09-25T14:50:11Z dlowe: the other suggestion is to just use scheme if you like scheme
2015-09-25T14:50:16Z dlowe: we won't judge. much.
2015-09-25T14:50:54Z Xach: Only if you join #lisp and say "I like scheme much better and you are wrong to like CL" will there be some judgement
2015-09-25T14:51:06Z Xach: that doesn't happen much any more
2015-09-25T14:51:10Z dlowe: there won't even be that if you join ##lisp
2015-09-25T14:51:27Z please_help: unfortunately, all scheme implementations are unusable in one way or another. When I was doing common lisp, I've never truly encountered problems beside lack of libraries.
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2015-09-25T14:52:00Z dlowe: Xach fixed that problem to a degree
2015-09-25T14:52:16Z Shinmera: The problem is more finding libraries than there being none.
2015-09-25T14:52:34Z Shinmera: Though the two are probably synonymous from some perspectives.
2015-09-25T14:52:40Z please_help: it's not that there are none and more that there aren't the ones that I need for my niche field of interest.
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2015-09-25T14:54:13Z dlowe: Oh, well, you might have to write some libraries
2015-09-25T14:54:23Z please_help: but anyway, while cl has been much better to me than scheme, the syntax of scheme feels too good to pass up. I also found that because of funcall/function, higher-order functions tend to be awkward in cl.
2015-09-25T14:54:28Z please_help: that's why I was asking ;)
2015-09-25T14:55:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could always (setf function-name (symbol-function function-name)) :)
2015-09-25T14:55:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: or the equivalent #' notation
2015-09-25T14:55:45Z jackdaniel: please_help: it is trivial to write macro which transforms [bah xxx] to (funcal bah xxx)
2015-09-25T14:55:56Z please_help: or make a macro to automatically check both namespaces
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2015-09-25T14:56:50Z Shinmera: lisp1-vs-lisp2.txt
2015-09-25T14:57:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((car #'car)) (mapcar car list))
2015-09-25T14:58:17Z Shinmera: Note that CL is not Scheme and Scheme is not CL. Trying to force either style on the other is a Bad Idea™. Write in the style that is most natural for the language at hand, or people will hate your code, and possibly you.
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2015-09-25T14:59:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I like not having to worry about overriding functions with variable bindings
2015-09-25T15:00:55Z Xach: You can, of course, do anything you want if you build your own code universe with a population of one: you.
2015-09-25T15:01:12Z Xach: that is a surprisingly popular strategy
2015-09-25T15:01:24Z Shinmera: For better or worse.
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2015-09-25T15:02:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a built in way to, in a (let) to return the value of the second to last form?
2015-09-25T15:02:53Z please_help: well, lisps are #1=(programmable . #1#) programming languages after all ;)
2015-09-25T15:03:21Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: second to the last form?
2015-09-25T15:03:22Z please_help: prog<n-1> where n is how many clauses you have?
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2015-09-25T15:04:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: I find myself writing things like this alot: (let ((x ...)) (do-something-to x) x)
2015-09-25T15:04:01Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Wrap the last two forms in a prog1
2015-09-25T15:04:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: thanks
2015-09-25T15:04:45Z Shinmera: Note that prog1 will only return the first value :(
2015-09-25T15:05:02Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-prog1 …) will work though
2015-09-25T15:05:21Z Shinmera: Sadly there's no multiple-value-prog2
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2015-09-25T15:05:59Z Shinmera: Though, while I have had the need for prog2 before, I can't say I could have used m-v-p2.
2015-09-25T15:06:37Z jackdaniel: I don't see any controversy if someone would jsut write multiple-value-prog2 as a macro if he needs it
2015-09-25T15:07:02Z Shinmera: Sure. I'm just noting that it lacks in clhs.
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2015-09-25T15:09:06Z loke```` wasn't even aware there was a prog2 :-)
2015-09-25T15:09:22Z please_help: has the common lisp standard be updated since '94?
2015-09-25T15:09:31Z Shinmera: No.
2015-09-25T15:09:32Z loke````: please_help: No
2015-09-25T15:10:32Z jackdaniel: please_help: but many things became de-facto standard
2015-09-25T15:10:51Z please_help: is there a list of these things?
2015-09-25T15:10:59Z please_help: (I guess TCO is one?)
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2015-09-25T15:11:31Z loke````: please_help: No. TCO is not one. There are many good reasons why not, but one of the major ones is that it's impossible to have reliable TCO when you have macros.
2015-09-25T15:11:35Z please_help: is there also any plans to work on a new standard?
2015-09-25T15:12:06Z Shinmera: The difficulty with a standard is getting implementations to bother implementing it.
2015-09-25T15:12:22Z loke````: please_help: No. None. The de-facto processes are good enough, generally. Most of us have pet peeves as to thing they would love to see standardised but it's not enough to warrant the enormous amount of work to actually do it.
2015-09-25T15:12:44Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell please_help about cl tco
2015-09-25T15:12:44Z Colleen: please_help: The hyperspec does not require TCO. However, some implementations support it under certain circumstances. See http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html for an extensive survey.
2015-09-25T15:12:52Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: theoretically one could write library portably to introduce some new funcitonality
2015-09-25T15:12:56Z loke````: (the work involves, mainliny, politics in order to get all the vendors to agree on stuff. And they probably won't be willing to pay for the project)
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2015-09-25T15:13:05Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: that's not the same.
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2015-09-25T15:13:51Z please_help: Isn't proper TC part of the rnrs since at least 5 (probably earlier)? They have macros and even worse: call/cc. How do macros make it harder to ensure TCO?
2015-09-25T15:13:52Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yes and no – take ASDF
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2015-09-25T15:14:10Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: ASDF is not a specification -- far from it.
2015-09-25T15:14:25Z loke````: please_help: Well, a simple example is this: (defun foo () (with-something (bar)))
2015-09-25T15:14:31Z jackdaniel: yeah, bad example
2015-09-25T15:14:40Z loke````: please_help: It's very much not clear if (bar) is in a TCP position
2015-09-25T15:15:02Z jackdaniel: but given imaginatory asdf with full spec and complete functionality ;)
2015-09-25T15:15:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke````: wouldn't the compiler / interpreter know?
2015-09-25T15:15:06Z loke````: In fact, it's impossible to tell unless you macroexpand WITH-SOMETHIN
2015-09-25T15:15:13Z please_help: what about sbcl which claims to be "properly tail recursive"?
2015-09-25T15:15:28Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: It would, and it does. However, to take advantage of TCO you need to know when it happens.
2015-09-25T15:15:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it's about the programmer rather than the interpreter
2015-09-25T15:15:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Makes sense
2015-09-25T15:16:02Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: Most CL's have TCO at some optimisation levels. That's not the issue. The problem is if you start to rely on it.
2015-09-25T15:16:13Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Then it's still not the same, because the implementations didn't implement it, they merely added it.
2015-09-25T15:16:16Z loke````: I.e. the reason why you shouldn't implement loops using recursion.
2015-09-25T15:16:55Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: often implementating something and adding it is the same thing from technical point of view
2015-09-25T15:18:33Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The direction is different. Part of what makes standards nice is that they allow flexibility between implementations. Just adding an implementation of an external system gets rid of that. And without a specification to adhere to, the implementations can't change the external system in any way out of fear of breaking compatibility.
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2015-09-25T15:19:13Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's why I admited that asdf isn't a good example (and took "imaginatory" ASDF)
2015-09-25T15:19:20Z Shinmera: If you write a standard first, then provide base-implementations of it for each CL implementations, then sure. We might get somewhere.
2015-09-25T15:20:10Z jackdaniel: that's what some of CDR's does – ECL added subinterval types for instance
2015-09-25T15:20:38Z jackdaniel: but there is portable implementation afair
2015-09-25T15:20:41Z Xach cannot recommend highly enough peter seibel's talk on the real history of the CL standard 
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2015-09-25T15:21:00Z Shinmera: 1+ Xach
2015-09-25T15:21:29Z Shinmera: for those who haven't listened to it yet. https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
2015-09-25T15:21:32Z dlowe: yeah, that was amazing
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2015-09-25T15:23:45Z loke````: Are any of you guys good at coming up with names? We were just about to do the opensource release of our application (a group-chat application, very similar in behaviour and functionality to Slack) when we came to the conclusion that it needed a different name first. Now, I need to suggestions for a name for such product?
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2015-09-25T15:24:07Z dlowe: "shindig"
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2015-09-25T15:24:16Z dlowe: "threesome"
2015-09-25T15:24:27Z dlowe: "menage a tout"
2015-09-25T15:24:35Z Shinmera: loke````: chuckle
2015-09-25T15:24:37Z dlowe: "cagefight"
2015-09-25T15:24:41Z dlowe: these are easy
2015-09-25T15:24:42Z loke````: Message'a'Troi? :-)
2015-09-25T15:25:12Z Shinmera just likes to roam the thesaurus for a good while to find names
2015-09-25T15:25:18Z loke````: Cagefight isn't terible, I guess :-)
2015-09-25T15:25:23Z Shinmera: And if that fails, just pick a noun that sounds nice, like Parasol.
2015-09-25T15:25:42Z loke````: If anyone wants to see it, I have an installation here: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2015-09-25T15:26:06Z dlowe: "Potatochat"
2015-09-25T15:26:07Z Shinmera: Is it potato or potato?
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2015-09-25T15:26:56Z loke````: dlowe: The project name is Potato, but one of the guys said he'd hate to see it released under that name. :-)
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2015-09-25T15:27:11Z loke````: (the Lisp connection here is that the application is written in CL)
2015-09-25T15:27:12Z Shinmera: "potato" is unfortunately a meme.
2015-09-25T15:27:19Z loke````: Shinmera: it is?
2015-09-25T15:27:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: "Conversate" :)
2015-09-25T15:27:27Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-09-25T15:27:31Z dlowe: Shinmera: everything is a meme.
2015-09-25T15:27:33Z loke````: Shinmera: meaning what?
2015-09-25T15:27:35Z fe[nl]ix: loke````: Solanum
2015-09-25T15:27:43Z loke````: Conversate? Hmm, what does that mean?
2015-09-25T15:28:02Z loke````: fenlix: is that Latin?
2015-09-25T15:28:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a mistake people often make
2015-09-25T15:28:07Z Shinmera: loke````: Mostly just someone/something being stupid.
2015-09-25T15:28:22Z loke````: Shinmera: Ah yes. I think the guy who opposed the name mentioned that
2015-09-25T15:28:27Z fe[nl]ix: loke````: the common potato is Solanum tuberosum
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2015-09-25T15:29:57Z fe[nl]ix: loke````: or go with Kartoffel
2015-09-25T15:30:12Z loke````: fenlix: you can never go wrong with German!
2015-09-25T15:30:15Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Härdöpfel
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2015-09-25T15:30:32Z phf: kartoshka
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2015-09-25T15:31:55Z phf: run "potato" through google translate until something pleasant comes up
2015-09-25T15:32:16Z loke````: phf: Best idea ever :-)
2015-09-25T15:33:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: අල
2015-09-25T15:33:30Z fe[nl]ix: pomme de terre is a bit long
2015-09-25T15:33:38Z loke````: ഉരുളക്കിഴങ്ങ്
2015-09-25T15:33:41Z loke````: Clearly
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2015-09-25T15:34:10Z please_help: patate is the slang form of pomme de terre
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2015-09-25T15:36:17Z phf: japanese for potato is "imo"
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2015-09-25T15:36:44Z loke````: imo? Not bad
2015-09-25T15:36:53Z jackdaniel: ICQ2
2015-09-25T15:36:56Z jackdaniel: (hue hue)
2015-09-25T15:37:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Did postmodern:query-dao always return a list?
2015-09-25T15:37:08Z loke````: jackdaniel: :-)
2015-09-25T15:37:37Z dlowe: I just like "potato." It's short, simple, unused, memorable, iconic, and humble
2015-09-25T15:37:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: how about "otatop"
2015-09-25T15:38:24Z Xach: cl-frenchfrieth would combine many of the things i hate in lisp project names
2015-09-25T15:38:26Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: What is that?
2015-09-25T15:38:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: potato backwards
2015-09-25T15:38:53Z loke````: Xach: Wouldn't that be cl-trivial-frenchfries?
2015-09-25T15:38:59Z Shinmera: Colleen: do convert-to upside-down potato
2015-09-25T15:39:00Z Colleen: doʇɐʇo
2015-09-25T15:39:08Z Xach: loke````: it's important to make reference to the speech impediment
2015-09-25T15:39:18Z Xach: loke````: but -trivial- is a good bit
2015-09-25T15:39:20Z loke````: Xach: ah of course
2015-09-25T15:39:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: cl-trivial-potatoeth
2015-09-25T15:39:59Z loke````: Xach: Would you prefer trivial-pocltato?
2015-09-25T15:40:11Z Xach: fantastic
2015-09-25T15:41:04Z loke```` is guilty of four project names starting with cl-, three of them on QL
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2015-09-25T15:41:09Z Shinmera: You're forgetting to put "com.loke." in front of it.
2015-09-25T15:41:14Z Shinmera: Gotta have those domain names.
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2015-09-25T15:41:55Z loke````: Shinmera: Yeah, don't get me started on those
2015-09-25T15:42:00Z phf: com.loke.xh-pocltato
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2015-09-25T15:43:01Z loke````: phf :-)
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2015-09-25T15:52:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to trace a lambda?
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2015-09-25T15:53:36Z jackdaniel: (trace *my-lambda*) maybe
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2015-09-25T15:55:11Z phf: fiddlerwoaroof: (defun foo (a)) (trace foo) (mapcar (defun foo (a) (+ a 1)) '(1 2 3))
2015-09-25T15:56:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: phf: thanks
2015-09-25T15:56:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: that's a neat trick
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2015-09-25T16:00:16Z jasom: jackdaniel: after reading the code, that's flat-out wrong.  1) Every function appears to use the C variadic interface, so that it can safely detect an incorrect number of arguments at runtime; 2) if there are more than a certain number of arguments (I think it's 32, but it's a #define) then the lisp stack is used for storing arguments.  However, it appears (to me) that the first 32 arguments are *also* on the C
2015-09-25T16:00:17Z jasom: stack, otherwise certain functions couldn't work.
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2015-09-25T16:04:35Z jackdaniel: jasom: eh, I may misunderstand calling convention (sorry if I mislead you)
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2015-09-25T16:17:45Z emaczen: Is there any slime feature that I don't know about where some error/warning  output from the repl is placed in the sldb buffer?
2015-09-25T16:18:02Z emaczen: It's hard to see everything that goes on in the REPL since it is all yellow "string" text
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2015-09-25T16:21:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like the way setf implicitly groups multiple assignments . . .
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2015-09-25T16:27:33Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: How do you mean?
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2015-09-25T16:28:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: It implicitly groups them pairwise which makes the various slime operations prone to break things
2015-09-25T16:28:35Z jackdaniel: (setf A Av B Bv C Cv)
2015-09-25T16:29:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If the right paren is moved left, the setf is invalid
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2015-09-25T16:29:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. (setf A Av B Bv C) Cv
2015-09-25T16:30:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (A Av) (B Bv) (C Cv)) wouldn't have that problem
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2015-09-25T16:30:58Z |3b|: moving either of the last 2 ) still breaks it
2015-09-25T16:31:06Z loke````: fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I agree with that. And that's one of my major gripes with Clojure
2015-09-25T16:31:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: |3b|: I use slimv actually, and ,< moves the last parentheses synctactically, so the setf remains valid
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2015-09-25T16:32:11Z loke````: For example, their CASE syntax is: (case VAL ifval0 (then0) ifval1 (then1) ifval2 (then2) (this-is-the-else-part))
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2015-09-25T16:32:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a similar problem with LOO
2015-09-25T16:32:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: *LOOP
2015-09-25T16:33:13Z Shinmera: Xach: congrats on the QL update!
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2015-09-25T17:15:17Z Xach: Thanks
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2015-09-25T17:22:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there already a with-slots for hashtables?
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2015-09-25T17:23:02Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: are you talking about some wrapper around symbol-macrolet?
2015-09-25T17:23:13Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: no.
2015-09-25T17:23:21Z dlowe: fiddlerwoaroof: interesting idea, though.
2015-09-25T17:23:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's fairly simple with symbol-macrolet
2015-09-25T17:24:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: yeah
2015-09-25T17:24:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm writing one myself to make dealing with lack sessions less painful
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2015-09-25T17:31:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It isn't fully general, but: http://paste.lisp.org/+3C75.
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2015-09-25T18:39:15Z lispal: Hi. any recommened linux distro which comes preconfigured for lisp?
2015-09-25T18:39:57Z p_l: nope
2015-09-25T18:40:02Z lispal: something like this but more up to date
2015-09-25T18:40:03Z lispal: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisp-res-kit/
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2015-09-25T18:40:27Z p_l: some do try, but most people download a binary (or build one) of SBCL, CCL, sometimes CLISP/ECL and then use quicklisp
2015-09-25T18:40:32Z jlarocco: i'd vote for debian
2015-09-25T18:40:57Z lispal: ok then which has the "best" support for lisp arch or gentoo
2015-09-25T18:41:04Z lispal: or ...4
2015-09-25T18:41:25Z jlarocco: install git, grab the sbcl source code, apt-get install the -dev packages needed to build it
2015-09-25T18:41:39Z jlarocco: build it, and then install quicklisp
2015-09-25T18:41:50Z p_l: lispal: I personally use Gentoo, but I don't use gentoo packages for lisp
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2015-09-25T18:42:38Z lispal: what about nixos or guixs experience
2015-09-25T18:42:56Z lispal: worth the trouble
2015-09-25T18:43:10Z lispal: to sandbox everything :P
2015-09-25T18:43:17Z jlarocco: almost everything will be in quicklisp, and debian testing branch has reasonably up to date packages and -dev packages for when you need libraries accessed through ffi
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2015-09-25T18:43:34Z lispal: ah thats good
2015-09-25T18:43:37Z lispal: great idea
2015-09-25T18:45:45Z jlarocco: and there are debian variants available for everything from rasberry pi to obscure old machines, so the more or less same procedure can work almost everywhere
2015-09-25T18:46:07Z lispal: your right
2015-09-25T18:46:30Z lispal: so emac and tmux it is
2015-09-25T18:47:11Z lispal: also any cool awesome crazy ideas in lisp develipment
2015-09-25T18:47:29Z lispal: *development compiler side
2015-09-25T18:48:02Z lispal: papers portfolios ...
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2015-09-25T18:50:29Z jlarocco: there's clasp
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2015-09-25T18:51:03Z jlarocco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
2015-09-25T18:51:14Z lispal: yep allready watched it cool stuff
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2015-09-25T19:13:52Z lispal: it is strange how little resource is available about lisp, compared to other languages, or is it not indexed by google, dunno
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2015-09-25T19:21:06Z lispal: anyone
2015-09-25T19:21:28Z Shinmera: It's not a popular language. Less people => less collective time => less stuff.
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2015-09-25T19:22:26Z lispal: what about this irc are these all idlers or..
2015-09-25T19:22:58Z |3b|: lots of idlers, lots of people in other timezones
2015-09-25T19:23:13Z jackdaniel: these are souls of past lispers
2015-09-25T19:23:25Z lispal: :P
2015-09-25T19:23:55Z lispal: ok  i stop my bitching one last question
2015-09-25T19:24:03Z Shinmera: The usual joke of the past is that they're all bots
2015-09-25T19:24:04Z lispal: what about the gpu front
2015-09-25T19:24:12Z Shinmera: What about it?
2015-09-25T19:24:34Z lispal: not cuda or opencl or openacc something like gpipe
2015-09-25T19:24:44Z lispal: https://wiki.haskell.org/GPipe
2015-09-25T19:25:39Z Shinmera: I don't really know what that does, but there's plenty of projects working with graphics stuff.
2015-09-25T19:25:58Z Shinmera: CEPL is pretty nifty on that front. https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl
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2015-09-25T19:26:10Z eudoxia: lispal: https://github.com/takagi/cl-cuda maybe this
2015-09-25T19:26:25Z Shinmera: eudoxia: he said /not/ cuda
2015-09-25T19:26:30Z eudoxia: o
2015-09-25T19:27:06Z lispal: gonna watch the video for cepl seams very interesting
2015-09-25T19:27:37Z |3b|: i thought cl-cuda had some of that stuff too?
2015-09-25T19:28:18Z lispal: gonna look at that too but now youtube time , seams to be a lisp abtsraction for opengl
2015-09-25T19:28:44Z |3b|: yeah, there are a few people working on that sort of thing, but no "finished products" yet :/
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2015-09-25T20:00:55Z earl-ducaine: Just realized there is a full blown Common Lisp embedded in Emacs: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl
2015-09-25T20:01:04Z p_l: not so full-blown, iirc
2015-09-25T20:01:09Z p_l: no CLOS afaik
2015-09-25T20:01:17Z earl-ducaine: But not a compatability mode.
2015-09-25T20:01:45Z earl-ducaine: Should probably say a project that aims at being a full blow version of Common Lisp.
2015-09-25T20:02:03Z p_l: earl-ducaine: ok, I just read the readme and I'm blown away
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2015-09-25T20:04:00Z ajf-: how should I go about when transforming time series with mathematical functions?
2015-09-25T20:04:05Z ajf-: any tips ?
2015-09-25T20:08:03Z ajf-: lisp-stat?
2015-09-25T20:12:29Z prxq: ajf-: there is a lib called sapac-lisp that might be of interest
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2015-09-25T20:18:08Z ajf-: why do I read "don't use ASDF" and when seeking for libraries, lots are using ASDF?
2015-09-25T20:18:23Z Shinmera: Where are you reading "don't use ASDF"?
2015-09-25T20:18:49Z prxq: ajf-: almost everybody uses asdf nowadays
2015-09-25T20:19:23Z ajf-: Shinmera: I can't remember now. a few days ago I read a pretty big message "DON'T INSTALL WITH ASDF, ASDF IS DEPRECATED" and so forth
2015-09-25T20:19:32Z ajf-: seeking for libraries
2015-09-25T20:19:58Z jackdaniel: ajf-: maybe it was : dont use asdf-install ?
2015-09-25T20:20:02Z Shinmera: That's either an old ASDF, or referring to asdf-install.
2015-09-25T20:20:08Z ajf-: could be
2015-09-25T20:20:11Z Shinmera: The latter is a very different thing and should indeed not be used.
2015-09-25T20:20:15Z jackdaniel: asdf-install is separate project with unfortunately similar name
2015-09-25T20:20:20Z ajf-: ah
2015-09-25T20:21:15Z ajf-: what do you do when there's a library in another language that you want to use in lisp? how do you manage the I/O? I noticed it's not trivial to exec shell commands
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2015-09-25T20:21:40Z Shinmera: Depends on the language.
2015-09-25T20:21:46Z LiamH: ajf-: Library or program?
2015-09-25T20:21:47Z ajf-: say python or R
2015-09-25T20:22:12Z ajf-: I read lisp has an interface for connecting to foreign languages
2015-09-25T20:22:14Z Shinmera: There's bindings to both, if I remember correctly. For Python there's even a project to compile Python libraries in CL.
2015-09-25T20:22:19Z jackdaniel: it would be hard to interact with python or R, but it's fairly easy to work with so files
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2015-09-25T20:23:38Z jackdaniel: for portable interface to the foreign libraries check out the project "cffi"
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2015-09-25T20:27:46Z ajf-: perhaps a server and using json to exchange information with lisp is easier and i'm not bound to the library that acts as bridge
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2015-09-25T20:32:18Z aeth: no CLOS in emacs is a pretty big oversight. OOP probably makes the most sense in something like an editor
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2015-09-25T20:32:57Z jackdaniel: aeth: could you elaborate?
2015-09-25T20:33:19Z aeth: afaik, OOP works best at the very high level interfaces
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2015-09-25T20:33:29Z jackdaniel: how
2015-09-25T20:33:34Z aeth: Generics.
2015-09-25T20:33:59Z jackdaniel stares sheepily
2015-09-25T20:34:28Z aeth is looking for a real world example
2015-09-25T20:35:06Z aeth: CLIM
2015-09-25T20:35:49Z jackdaniel: clim was gui toolkit - I'm asking why do you think OOP makes so much sense with editors
2015-09-25T20:35:55Z aeth: actually, wait, setf is probably better.
2015-09-25T20:36:33Z aeth: The way CLOS works with setf
2015-09-25T20:37:00Z jackdaniel: maybe it's just too late but I don't get it. gn all \o (I'll reread it tomorrow)
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2015-09-25T20:37:30Z aeth: well, no, I am not being specific enough because this conversation is moving faster than my Googling
2015-09-25T20:37:35Z aeth: So it's my fault
2015-09-25T20:38:23Z ajf-: Component "cffi-grovel" not found any ideas?
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2015-09-25T20:39:17Z jackdaniel: what CL implementation do you use?
2015-09-25T20:39:30Z jackdaniel: do you have gcc on your system?
2015-09-25T20:39:43Z ajf-: currently with sbcl
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2015-09-25T20:41:08Z jackdaniel: and how do you acquire cffi?
2015-09-25T20:41:11Z jackdaniel: with quicklisp?
2015-09-25T20:41:30Z ajf-: no i'm currently using (asdf:load-system )
2015-09-25T20:41:39Z ajf-: to load everything and downloading the dependencies (babel, etc)
2015-09-25T20:41:55Z jackdaniel: then you have to load cffi-grovel.asd first
2015-09-25T20:42:01Z jackdaniel: it's in the same directory
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2015-09-25T20:42:50Z jackdaniel: quicklisp handles all dependencies for many packages
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2015-09-25T20:48:30Z ajf-: hmm works when calling sbcl directly but not on emacs slime for some reason.
2015-09-25T20:48:35Z prxq: ajf-: do you use quicklisp? it makes the installation and use of packages so much easier.
2015-09-25T20:49:15Z ajf-: Package QL does not exist.
2015-09-25T20:49:18Z ajf-: prxq: I'm trying heh
2015-09-25T20:49:34Z jackdaniel: ajf-: try (require 'quicklisp)  ;; (not sure if sbcl has such module though)
2015-09-25T20:49:42Z jackdaniel: otherwise just go at quicklisp.org
2015-09-25T20:49:47Z jackdaniel: and follow instructions there
2015-09-25T20:49:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: I've never used it for an actual project, but zeromq looks pretty handy for language interop
2015-09-25T20:50:08Z ajf-: on't know how to REQUIRE QUICKLISP
2015-09-25T20:50:11Z ajf-: *D
2015-09-25T20:50:28Z jackdaniel: ajf-: then go to quicklisp.org
2015-09-25T20:50:33Z jackdaniel: there are step by step instructions
2015-09-25T20:50:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: have you added quicklisp to your init file?
2015-09-25T20:51:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might need to (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") (ql:add-to-init-file)
2015-09-25T20:51:08Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: I think ajf didn't even download and install it yet
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2015-09-25T20:52:17Z ajf-: that was it
2015-09-25T20:52:25Z ajf-: thank you I had not loaded it
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2015-09-25T20:52:38Z ajf-: yes I did install it
2015-09-25T20:53:22Z jackdaniel: oh, ok
2015-09-25T20:54:25Z ajf-: seems like quickload doesn't resolve dependencies
2015-09-25T20:54:34Z ajf-: but no worries it's much better than cloning and requiring with asdf
2015-09-25T20:55:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: it should load any dependencies available on quicklisp
2015-09-25T20:55:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: if you have additional ones, symlink / clone them into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2015-09-25T20:55:39Z ajf-: thanks for the zeromq link fiddlerwoaroof
2015-09-25T20:55:43Z aeth: Okay, I think I got it. One way a CLOS emacs could work is to make emacs modes CLOS objects. Then certain actions could be done as generics on the mode object. Then you can customize the mode with generics rather than through adding hooks to minor modes.
2015-09-25T20:56:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: you're welcome, I've never used the lisp library, so I hope it works out for you.
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2015-09-25T21:01:08Z jackdaniel: 22:46 < ajf-> no i'm currently using (asdf:load-system )
2015-09-25T21:01:29Z jackdaniel: sorry, touchpad
2015-09-25T21:04:06Z aeth: Hmm... One possible way of handling customizing a CLOSified emacs's modes would be to use multiple inheritance.
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2015-09-25T21:04:52Z jackdaniel: aeth: I see no clear adventage - you just add additional abstraction
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2015-09-25T21:06:16Z jackdaniel: I mean - implementing clos in emacs-cl would be great just not sure if it would be that useful
2015-09-25T21:06:22Z aeth: jackdaniel: yes but it's an additional abstraction that's built into Common Lisp itself, rather than something that needs to be built into the editor. So the editor's implementation is simpler at the expense of more complexity in the language, which is already implemented.
2015-09-25T21:06:45Z aeth: No, I was thinking about it differently, like implementing a better emacs in CL with a compatability layer.
2015-09-25T21:07:12Z jackdaniel: there were climacs and hemlock
2015-09-25T21:07:19Z aeth: Or alternatively forking emacs into CL, whichever would be easier.
2015-09-25T21:07:32Z aeth: Either way, implementing a core functionality with something built into CL simplifies the editor's code.
2015-09-25T21:08:03Z aeth: Now I wonder if there would be enough macro and/or MOP wizardry to make hooks roughly equivalent in a compatibility layer. :-p
2015-09-25T21:08:14Z jackdaniel: it's a bold statement given they have already full emacs-lisp implemented and working
2015-09-25T21:08:29Z aeth: in CL, you mean?
2015-09-25T21:08:56Z jackdaniel: idk in what, probably in C and itself
2015-09-25T21:10:47Z aeth: An elisp to CL would probably be faster (at least in certain implementations, like sbcl) because it would compile to machine code. Afaik, emacs lisp only goes down to slow byte code. So a CL clone of emacs would be faster.
2015-09-25T21:11:53Z jackdaniel: we were talking about merits of adding clos to limited common lisp implementaion in elisp
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2015-09-25T21:13:38Z aeth: The problem is, OOP in emacs only makes sense if it's in the core. A compatibility layer CL with CLOS isn't enough to give the full advantages.
2015-09-25T21:13:56Z aeth: Especially elisp, as slow as it is.
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2015-09-25T21:14:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't there some LLVM project for speeding up elisp underfoot?
2015-09-25T21:15:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: underway, that is
2015-09-25T21:15:36Z aeth: meanwhile emacs plans to switch to guile somehow so all of that work would be wasted in a few versions if that ever happens
2015-09-25T21:16:08Z aeth: (Why Scheme and not CL, idk, because that introduces many more issues than CL.)
2015-09-25T21:17:16Z jackdaniel: guile is the official GNU extension language - why it's scheme? because scheme has small standard and it's a very good fit for extension language
2015-09-25T21:18:03Z aeth: Which imo is an approach that makes more sense in the early 1990s than today. C with scripting.
2015-09-25T21:18:32Z aeth: Nowadays you can just use any language and still have access to C libraries.
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2015-09-25T21:19:04Z jackdaniel: sometimes people just write in C or C++
2015-09-25T21:19:08Z aeth: A rival CL editor approach would probably just be to write the slow stuff in %foo that are unsafe and highly optimized.
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2015-09-25T21:20:52Z jackdaniel: good night
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2015-09-25T21:22:03Z pjb: earl-ducaine: however, this emacs-cl hasn't been ported yet to emacs-24. It only works on emacs-23.  If you're interested, you might want to port it to emacs-24 with its lexical-binding, this should allow you to simplify a lot of parts of emacs-cl, and improve its performance a lot.
2015-09-25T21:23:46Z pjb: aeth: there's eieio, but recently it has been cleaned out of multiple-dispatch.  Recent eieio can only dispatch on the first argument.
2015-09-25T21:24:10Z pjb: emacs lisp is really primitive.
2015-09-25T21:25:07Z aeth: emacs lisp... Program in Lisp like it's 1983.
2015-09-25T21:25:53Z earl-ducaine: ajf: there is this quote from the asdf manual re: not using asdf in custom asdf operations: ASDF's pre-defined operations are in no way "privileged", but it is requested that developers never use the asdf package for operations they develop themselves. The rationale for this rule is that we don't want to establish a "global asdf operation name registry", but also want to avoid name clashes.
2015-09-25T21:26:13Z aeth: (rms is a co-author of the 1983 chinual)
2015-09-25T21:26:23Z earl-ducaine: To be honest this puzzles me, and seems to be a rather onerous restriction.
2015-09-25T21:28:08Z PuercoPop: ajf-: for Python there is https://github.com/mmontone/burgled-batteries, which runs cpython inside of the lisp process
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2015-09-25T21:30:29Z ajf-: The name "..." does not designate any package.
2015-09-25T21:30:56Z ajf-: that's what I get from using (ql:quickload "package") inside a .lisp file and then trying (load (compile-file "demo.lisp"))
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2015-09-25T21:33:52Z ajf-: spcifically using "burgled-batteries"
2015-09-25T21:35:34Z ajf-: seems like it works on the repl only (tried it, works)
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2015-09-25T21:36:08Z PuercoPop: ajf-: one quickloads asdf systems, not packages. Also if you are using a package provided by said system you would have to wrap the call to quickload in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute))
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2015-09-25T21:36:28Z PuercoPop: And the version of burgled-batteries I linked is not in quicklisp
2015-09-25T21:36:55Z ajf-: or is quicklisp only for repl sessions?
2015-09-25T21:37:01Z ajf-: PuercoPop: no actually I loaded it
2015-09-25T21:37:11Z ajf-: and it works
2015-09-25T21:37:17Z ajf-: ah...
2015-09-25T21:39:18Z PuercoPop: ajf-: Use quicklisp to load systems, use asdf to specify dependencies. So yes quicklisp is used 99% in the repl only.
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2015-09-25T21:56:08Z pjb: ajf-: there's no quicklisp system, so you cannot write an asdf file depending on quicklisp therefore you cannot use ql:quickload in a file that would be loaded by asdf or downloaded by quicklisp.
2015-09-25T21:56:16Z pjb: ajf-: what you're doing is "crazy".
2015-09-25T21:58:21Z aeth: Let's say that there's a generic on e.g. integers, fixnums, rationals, etc. Do implementations take advantage of the fact that they know what the type is in the defmethod body?
2015-09-25T22:00:15Z PuercoPop: pjb: there is a quicklisp system (as in ASDF system)
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2015-09-25T22:04:51Z ajf-: i'm struggling to even create a file that loads a library and does something
2015-09-25T22:04:57Z ajf-: so that's a bit over my head now
2015-09-25T22:05:12Z earl-ducaine: pjb: that's disappointing. It is in elpa marmalade, and looked like it compile.  But I can get the main lisp loop to run.
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2015-09-25T22:05:38Z earl-ducaine: can't, rather.
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2015-09-25T22:06:16Z PuercoPop: ajf-: you dont specify the dependencies of a file in the file system but in an asdf system definition in a .asd file
2015-09-25T22:07:47Z PuercoPop: Are you confused with the difference between packagres and system or is your problem that you don't know how to specify an asdf system?
2015-09-25T22:08:26Z pjb: PuercoPop: perhaps, but not available from quicklisp.
2015-09-25T22:08:51Z PuercoPop: pjb: well it comes with quicklisp :D
2015-09-25T22:08:54Z pjb: PuercoPop: this is significant, because you cannot depend on quicklisp in systems that are in quicklisp. If you try, you fail on the test compilation and get rejected.
2015-09-25T22:09:30Z pjb: aeth: you cannot dispatch methods for generic functions on types.
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2015-09-25T22:09:58Z pjb: aeth: therefore you cannot take advantage of the type of the parameter.  Only on their class.
2015-09-25T22:10:31Z easye: Some implementations do dispatch on type (ABCL on java types), but this is not ANSI
2015-09-25T22:10:52Z pjb: easye: I sure they don't dispatch on type, but on classes.
2015-09-25T22:10:52Z ajf-: I think i'm confused with all the "load-systems". so to load a system I must create another system that loads it, and then load that system from the repl finally ?
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2015-09-25T22:11:32Z pjb: ajf-: why don't you just write an asd file?
2015-09-25T22:11:49Z easye: pjb: Hmmm.
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2015-09-25T22:12:38Z PuercoPop: ajf-: I don't understand what you mean (or want to say) with creating a system to load a system. This may help you clear things up http://weitz.de/packages.html
2015-09-25T22:13:09Z pjb: ajf-: https://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml
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2015-09-25T22:13:22Z pjb: ajf-: how hard is it to google for tutorial asdf and get that link?
2015-09-25T22:13:35Z PuercoPop: so if you just want to start coding, load the system from the repl and be done with it. After a while just write the asdf file.
2015-09-25T22:13:49Z PuercoPop: pjb: it can be hard if one does not know the proper terminology
2015-09-25T22:14:22Z PuercoPop: When I started with lisp the line between system and package was blurry.
2015-09-25T22:14:27Z aeth: pjb: so the distinction is that e.g. it will work on integer but not integer 0 * then?
2015-09-25T22:14:34Z pjb: yes.
2015-09-25T22:14:35Z easye: pjb: How is a non-primitive Java type not its class?  But this is certainly irrelevant to your general train of argumentation.
2015-09-25T22:15:10Z pjb: aeth: and the distinction is that there are standard classes, and there are implementation specific classes.  Therefore if you want to write a conforming set of method, you must restrict yourself to standard classes.
2015-09-25T22:15:35Z earl-ducaine:  pjb:  Oops.  Scratch that.  Definitely not compiling correctly on a modern emacs24.x
2015-09-25T22:15:59Z pjb: aeth: eg. fixnum is an implementation specific class in some implementations, but not all.
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2015-09-25T22:18:53Z ajf-: PuercoPop: what throws me off is that I have to move my code into the asdf libraries and then load it again
2015-09-25T22:19:16Z pjb: ajf-: This is meaningless.
2015-09-25T22:19:21Z pjb: ajf-: what's your problem?
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2015-09-25T22:22:10Z pjb: ajf-: writing a Makefile doesn't move anything into anything.
2015-09-25T22:23:02Z PuercoPop: ajf-: You don't don't have to move your code, you tell asdf how to find it, by listing the files.
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2015-09-25T22:25:07Z aeth: So what's the portable way to handle fixnums, then? (integer 0 most-positive-fixnum) or something? That doesn't seem to work as a type in declare. Would it have to be in a macro? e.g. `(declare (type (integer 0 ,most-positive-fixnum)))
2015-09-25T22:25:25Z pjb: aeth: why would you care about fixnum?
2015-09-25T22:25:29Z pjb: There's no reason.
2015-09-25T22:25:34Z Bike: (integer 0 #.most-positive-fixnum)
2015-09-25T22:25:39Z Bike: alexandria defines positive-fixnum and such.
2015-09-25T22:25:43Z pjb: fixnums are an implementation detail.
2015-09-25T22:26:10Z pjb: fixnum is a type, so fixnum.
2015-09-25T22:26:10Z aeth: ah
2015-09-25T22:26:18Z Bike: you could also do (and fixnum (integer 0)) and stuff like that.
2015-09-25T22:26:25Z aeth: Bike: that works
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2015-09-25T22:27:22Z aeth: pjb: 0 #.most-positive-fixnum doesn't really matter, 0 #.(- most-positive-fixnum 2) might matter.
2015-09-25T22:27:30Z aeth: pjb: if you need to keep a calculation within fixnum
2015-09-25T22:27:34Z aeth: so e.g. for an add-two
2015-09-25T22:27:50Z pjb: Why would you do that? This is crazy talk.
2015-09-25T22:28:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: There are better ways to do this, but this is a easy way to get started:  http://paste.lisp.org/+3C7H.
2015-09-25T22:29:13Z aeth: pjb: sbcl complains when it leaves fixnum if it's (optimize 3) iirc
2015-09-25T22:29:21Z ajf-: fiddlerwoaroof: what is cl-user ?
2015-09-25T22:29:39Z aeth: Perhaps other implementations do as well (probably at the very least cmucl if it's like its fork sbcl)
2015-09-25T22:29:47Z pjb: Notice that ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT can be as low as 1024; have I had been on the standardization commitee, I would have used that to argue that fixnum should be allowed to be as small as (integer -1024 1023).
2015-09-25T22:29:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: among other things, it's the package the REPL defaults to
2015-09-25T22:30:14Z pjb: aeth: yes, sbcl complains a lot. It's not a very good implementation IMO.
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2015-09-25T22:31:30Z PuercoPop: pjb: why is that?
2015-09-25T22:31:50Z pjb: PuercoPop: sbcl complains a lot => It's not a very good implementation.
2015-09-25T22:32:17Z pjb: If you're asking why sbcl complains a lot, you should ask its developers.
2015-09-25T22:32:26Z Shinmera rolls his eyes
2015-09-25T22:32:58Z PuercoPop: pjb: I thought you had bigger gripes with sbcl.
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2015-09-25T22:33:37Z aeth: pjb: It's always possible to e.g. write a few implementation-specific stuff so sbcl and stuff like that use (integer 0 #.(- most-positive-fixnum 2)) in add-two and tiny-fixnum-cl doesn't do that or something. SBCL will have to be handled anyway, at least in 2015. Maybe we'll all be using a LispM CL in our flying VR cars in 2035 or something instead of sbcl.
2015-09-25T22:33:43Z aeth: #+sbcl iirc
2015-09-25T22:33:51Z aeth: or #-tiny-fixnum-cl
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2015-09-25T22:34:11Z ajf-: fiddlerwoaroof: only the last one gives me: Error: Undefined function in-package called with arguments (:foo)
2015-09-25T22:34:13Z aeth: s/flying VR cars/flying 3D printed VR cars/
2015-09-25T22:34:13Z pjb: aeth: well, this is #lisp, not #sbcl; here we discuss conforming code by priority.
2015-09-25T22:34:18Z ajf-: (in-package :foo)
2015-09-25T22:34:44Z pjb: ajf-: did you read clhs defpackage?
2015-09-25T22:34:47Z pjb: clhs defpackage
2015-09-25T22:34:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-09-25T22:34:51Z pjb: ajf-: perhaps you should.
2015-09-25T22:35:24Z aeth: pjb: the topic of #sbcl says "SBCL developer hangout, more dev than help -- but if #lisp can't solve it and it's SBCL specific, we'll try" so I assume optimizations that may apply to more than just sbcl but not all CLs are on topic here.
2015-09-25T22:35:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: I made a mistake there, the defpackage should be (defpackage foo (:use :cl :alexandria))
2015-09-25T22:36:42Z PuercoPop: aeth: maybe one can use compiler-macros with feature flags for implementation specific optimizations?
2015-09-25T22:37:11Z aeth: clisp's most-positive-fixnum on my machine is 4 orders of magnitude smaller than sbcl's, but it's still larger than (expt 10 14) so I suspect that writing for fixnums is fairly portable
2015-09-25T22:37:29Z pjb: aeth: yes, the minimum fixnum is 16 bit.
2015-09-25T22:38:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: but if I just run the code I pasted with sbcl --script code.lisp it works for me
2015-09-25T22:38:19Z pjb: It's just that I find it very silly to write implementation specific code, such as code that depends on the size of fixnums.
2015-09-25T22:38:28Z aeth: If a function is functional (no side effects) and at speed 3, and certain to be under a reasonable fixnum size, then why not write it for fixnum instead of integer and get a speed improvement?
2015-09-25T22:39:24Z pjb: aeth: if you defined (deftype stock () (integer -10000 10000)) and used that, I wouldn't mind, because stock would be meaningful for your application domain.
2015-09-25T22:40:37Z pjb: (defun add-stock (a i) (check-type a stock) (check-type i stock) (let ((new (+ a i))) (if (typep new 'stock) new (error "new stock out of range: ~A = (+ ~A ~A)" new a i))))
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2015-09-25T22:54:32Z aeth: Has anyone used the MOP to modify the dispatch so that it works on types or is that not possible?
2015-09-25T22:55:24Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-09-25T22:55:27Z aeth: I guess an alternative is a function with typecase
2015-09-25T22:55:36Z DeadTrickster: ask pjb
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2015-09-25T22:56:32Z Xof: I have modified the MOP so that it works on all kinds of things
2015-09-25T22:56:53Z Xof: so that you can dispatch on anything, limited only by your imagination
2015-09-25T22:57:06Z aeth: DeadTrickster: I didn't ask pjb in particular because I remember someone else was talking about modifying dispatch to iirc replace cond or something.
2015-09-25T22:57:50Z DeadTrickster: aeth, pjb will tell why you should not do this since this breaks OOP
2015-09-25T22:58:15Z aeth: Isn't the point of Lisp to break things?
2015-09-25T22:58:19Z DeadTrickster: Xof,  white pony will work?
2015-09-25T22:58:22Z pjb: furthermore, it will be very inefficient.
2015-09-25T22:58:24Z DeadTrickster: aeth, not anymore
2015-09-25T22:58:33Z DeadTrickster: here we go
2015-09-25T22:58:55Z Xof: aeth: https://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2014/els-specializers.pdf
2015-09-25T23:00:08Z DeadTrickster: ttp://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2008/paper.pdf
2015-09-25T23:00:08Z DeadTrickster: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/2001/AITR-2001-006.pdf
2015-09-25T23:00:09Z DeadTrickster: http://cliki.net/cl-cmp
2015-09-25T23:00:09Z DeadTrickster: http://research.gold.ac.uk/9924/1/els-specializers.pdf
2015-09-25T23:00:25Z DeadTrickster: my collection on this topic
2015-09-25T23:00:41Z DeadTrickster: aeth, do not forget to share your code
2015-09-25T23:01:02Z DeadTrickster: sadly I have no time right now to dive into this
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2015-09-25T23:24:01Z ajf-: when using in-package, how do I share variables across the scopes ?
2015-09-25T23:25:47Z ajf-: no actually
2015-09-25T23:26:00Z ajf-: how do I keep the functions that were on my previous scope
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2015-09-25T23:31:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: use-package or the (:use . . .) part of the defpackage that defines the package you switch to with use-package
2015-09-25T23:31:49Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: can you pick up Github releases automatically ?
2015-09-25T23:32:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajf-: read the docs for defpackage: you need to export the symbols for use-package to pick them up.
2015-09-25T23:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs defpackage
2015-09-25T23:32:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
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2015-09-25T23:49:19Z aeth: Hmm... It might just be better to have a safe function foo with an etypecase that calls %foo-integer, %foo-rational, etc.
2015-09-25T23:49:28Z aeth: For the specific case of numerical code.
2015-09-25T23:50:09Z ajf-: got the ffi to work at last
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2015-09-25T23:51:55Z aeth: Hmm... I guess the problem with an etypecase is that (type-of 4.0) is 'single-float
2015-09-25T23:52:32Z aeth: But if it's 4.0, it should convert to integer and then call %foo-integer (convert with floor?)
2015-09-25T23:52:35Z ajf-: how would I map a list to a new list of converted values ?
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2015-09-25T23:53:21Z ajf-: maplist yeah
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2015-09-25T23:55:03Z aeth: (maplist (lambda (x) (format t "~A~%" x)) (list 1 2 3 4))
2015-09-25T23:55:32Z aeth: Is that what you want x to be? (1 2 3 4) (2 3 4) (3 4) (4)
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2015-09-25T23:59:55Z ajf-: no
2015-09-26T00:00:04Z ajf-: it should be (1 2 3 4)
2015-09-26T00:00:11Z ajf-: this recursive map is strange
2015-09-26T00:00:18Z ajf-: I want to map but only the first level
2015-09-26T00:00:37Z aeth: mapcar or map nil then
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2015-09-26T00:00:57Z ajf-: thanks
2015-09-26T00:01:05Z aeth: if you want to test one try it like e.g. this: (map nil (lambda (x) (format t "~A~%" x) x) (list 1 2 3 4))
2015-09-26T00:01:35Z aeth: although you probably want to test with e.g. (1+ x) so you can see the difference between mapcar and mapc
2015-09-26T00:03:10Z aeth: If you only want side effects you probably want map nil.
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2015-09-26T00:03:27Z ajf-: no no side effects actually
2015-09-26T00:04:00Z ajf-: wooo mapcan =)
2015-09-26T00:04:14Z aeth: no side effects is going to be mapcar for lists or map 'sequence-type for sequences (I'm not sure if there is a difference between mapcar and map 'list)
2015-09-26T00:04:39Z ajf-: wait no.
2015-09-26T00:04:43Z ajf-: it flattened it
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2015-09-26T00:05:24Z aeth: I have never used anything other than map or mapcar, although I probably could have gotten rid of a few niche do loops with a niche map
2015-09-26T00:05:24Z ajf-: I'm looking for this: (list 1 2 3 4 5) ==> #'(lamda(x) (x+1)) ==> (2 3 4 5 6)
2015-09-26T00:05:54Z aeth: (mapcar #'1+ (list 1 2 3 4 5))
2015-09-26T00:06:18Z pjb: aeth: there is a difference.
2015-09-26T00:06:36Z aeth: pjb: oh right, map 'list will take any sequence as input
2015-09-26T00:06:41Z pjb: right.
2015-09-26T00:06:41Z aeth: So you can convert a vector that way
2015-09-26T00:07:03Z ajf-: nono, not that exactly. My list looks like this actually: ((10 10)(5 5)), but I need to execute a function on each of those lists, and then have a new value that has the same dimension, but with the transformed lists inside
2015-09-26T00:07:04Z aeth: In the case of (map 'list some-function some-list) it might just be optimized to mapcar, I guess.
2015-09-26T00:07:34Z pjb: ajf-: so how can you apply mapcar to do that?
2015-09-26T00:07:42Z akkad ponders the mappings others use for () to make it easier
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2015-09-26T00:09:03Z ajf-: got it with mapcar
2015-09-26T00:09:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does (map 'list #'1+ '(1 2 3 4)) call LENGTH on the input lisp?
2015-09-26T00:09:06Z ajf-: thanks
2015-09-26T00:09:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Iterate's in-sequence seems to
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2015-09-26T00:10:56Z aeth: (mapcar (lambda (sublist) (mapcar (lambda (x) (1+ x)) sublist)) (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2)))
2015-09-26T00:11:02Z aeth: That's probably how I'd do it, it might not be ideal.
2015-09-26T00:11:21Z aeth: If I understood the question correctly
2015-09-26T00:12:08Z aeth: oops I meant to write: (mapcar (lambda (sublist) (mapcar #'1+ sublist)) (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2)))
2015-09-26T00:12:23Z aeth: My parentheses were all messed up so I messed it up in the REPL
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2015-09-26T00:13:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-26T00:14:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: (trace length) blows up sbcl
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2015-09-26T01:16:27Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: do you understand why and why?
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2015-09-26T01:43:40Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: whether it does or doesn't is undefined, iirc.
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2015-09-26T01:52:44Z ajf-: sorry but no one here knows how to change the path for the python interpreter when using CFFI ?
2015-09-26T01:53:01Z pjb: why? use cl-python.
2015-09-26T01:53:33Z pjb: CFFI is to interface with foreign functions written in C, not in python.
2015-09-26T01:53:37Z pjb: Otherwise it'd be called PFFI.
2015-09-26T01:53:40Z pjb: pfft!
2015-09-26T01:54:00Z ajf-: huh. no I'm just using https://github.com/pinterface/burgled-batteries
2015-09-26T01:54:03Z ajf-: and that uses CFFI apparently
2015-09-26T01:54:29Z ajf-: but I just realised it's not picking up any of my libraries
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2015-09-26T01:55:57Z pjb: There's a variable in cffi to list some directories where to search libraries, but the default environment should do in general.
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2015-09-26T01:58:00Z ajf-: apparently it's not picking up the correct one in my case
2015-09-26T01:58:52Z ajf-: it seems to be picking up the default mac /usr/bin/python
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2015-09-26T02:01:55Z pjb: ajf-: again running external programs has nothing to do with CFFI. You're asking crazy things.
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2015-09-26T02:03:17Z pjb: ajf-: finding external programs is done using the environment variable PATH.
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2015-09-26T02:03:26Z pjb: ajf-: try: (uiop:getenv "PATH")
2015-09-26T02:03:43Z ajf-: my interpreter is first in PATH
2015-09-26T02:03:47Z ajf-: so it should work
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2015-09-26T02:03:50Z pjb: ajf-: of course, any program or library may try to run an external program at an absolute pathname.
2015-09-26T02:04:21Z Bike: burgled batteries would appear to use libpython.
2015-09-26T02:04:39Z ajf-: Bike yes it does
2015-09-26T02:05:14Z Bike: so it's not using PATH. you could do something silly with LD_LIBRARY_PATH, i guess.
2015-09-26T02:05:33Z Bike: but it's jsut doing what the system does, it's the same thing you'd get doing -lpython in ld.
2015-09-26T02:05:59Z Bike: https://github.com/pinterface/burgled-batteries/blob/master/ffi-interface.lisp#L5-11
2015-09-26T02:06:14Z Bike: if pinterface is around maybe they have advice.
2015-09-26T02:13:29Z ajf-: got it, the dev responded
2015-09-26T02:13:40Z ajf-: I had to append to sys.path the path that my modules are installed in
2015-09-26T02:13:44Z ajf-: thanks everyone
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2015-09-26T02:26:37Z drmeister: I'm doing something stupid that I need to fix.
2015-09-26T02:26:58Z drmeister: Clasp's packages use hashtables to map symbol names to symbols.
2015-09-26T02:27:23Z drmeister: But I'm converting symbol names to bignums and I use the bignums as keys in the hash table.
2015-09-26T02:27:29Z drmeister: The bignum math is expensive.
2015-09-26T02:27:40Z drmeister: I think I picked this up from ECL
2015-09-26T02:28:31Z drmeister: What's a better idea?   Use EQUAL Hashtables where the symbol names themselves are the keys?
2015-09-26T02:30:18Z drmeister: Yeah - I think that's the obvious thing to do.
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2015-09-26T02:38:18Z drmeister: single instruction tracing uncovers a lot of hidden stupidity
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2015-09-26T02:42:19Z drmeister: fix
2015-09-26T02:42:21Z drmeister: ed
2015-09-26T02:42:22Z drmeister: fixed
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2015-09-26T02:44:39Z drmeister: Cool, now LLVM is the top consumer of cycles.
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2015-09-26T02:53:00Z drmeister: That change to packages shaved at least 10% off compile time.
2015-09-26T02:53:08Z Bike: nice.
2015-09-26T02:54:31Z drmeister: This tracing method is really powerful.   I set up an LLVM python script that pares down the output printed when single stepping and then it tells the debugger to "stepi" thousands of times.
2015-09-26T02:55:14Z drmeister: I take the output and pare it down a bit more and then at a glance I can see what is taking lots of time and unexpected things.
2015-09-26T02:55:30Z drmeister: "and I see unexpected things"
2015-09-26T02:56:14Z drmeister: The thing is, there is far less uncertainty and doubt, I see exactly what the processor is spending its time on.
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2015-09-26T03:15:36Z drmeister: This is new.
2015-09-26T03:15:55Z drmeister: bclasp isn't compiler bound anymore - the compiler isn't the rate determining step.
2015-09-26T03:16:02Z drmeister: It's the reader and LLVM
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2015-09-26T03:51:09Z drmeister: I also understand now what beach was saying (paraphrased) "it's not the removal of the preamble and post-amble that makes inlining a function fast - it's what the optimizer can do with the inlined function"
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2015-09-26T03:52:35Z drmeister: inlining a function can turn it from a long sequence of instructions (call) into just one or two instructions.
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2015-09-26T04:14:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-26T04:14:21Z smokeink: good morning
2015-09-26T04:15:29Z beach: drmeister: Inlining a function can also eliminate some of the tests done in the code if it is inlined in a context where the result of the test is already known.
2015-09-26T04:16:35Z ajf-: hey just wanted to say that I've gotten great support from this channel
2015-09-26T04:16:47Z drmeister: Hi beach - I'm making progress. For the first time I saw llvm functions at the top of the profiler display
2015-09-26T04:16:51Z ajf-: there lots of channels where everything is about kicking the newbie down
2015-09-26T04:16:59Z loke````: ajf-: If you did, it means you asked good questions.
2015-09-26T04:17:00Z beach: drmeister: Great.
2015-09-26T04:17:43Z beach: drmeister: Take the case (let ((x (car w)) (y (cdr w))) ...) which is common in destructuring.  The CAR and CDR functions contain implicit tests for CONS-ness and NULL-ness.  These tests can be eliminated in the code for CDR because they have already been done for CAR.
2015-09-26T04:18:04Z loke````: ajf-: People here are helpful if the questioner is interested in learning. If you want to be insta-hated, you can instead come in here and start out by asking: "Is Lisp dead? Its spec hasn't been updated since the 80's"
2015-09-26T04:18:25Z ajf-: it's kinda weird though
2015-09-26T04:18:32Z ajf-: but cool stuff
2015-09-26T04:18:36Z ajf-: it's like the tiniest notation
2015-09-26T04:18:55Z ajf-: I had to do an interface with python I admit it
2015-09-26T04:19:09Z ajf-: but eventually I got to using it and i guess i'll be using it more
2015-09-26T04:20:06Z loke````: Not the tiniest. There are languages with even more efficient notation. However, I'm willing to argue that CL is one of the notationally smallest _useful_ languages.
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2015-09-26T04:20:43Z White_Flame: almost every language internally converts their forms into a syntax tree, which is what nested Lisp s-expressions already are
2015-09-26T04:20:52Z White_Flame: so it's more that it's "fundamental" than "tiny"
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2015-09-26T04:21:32Z ajf-: it's also very close to what 'machine' language looks like no? sorry no cs background here
2015-09-26T04:21:39Z White_Flame: no
2015-09-26T04:21:48Z White_Flame: machine language doesn't have any nested expression
2015-09-26T04:21:54Z ajf-: ah
2015-09-26T04:22:12Z White_Flame: (disassemble #'funcname) in most Lisps to see machine language
2015-09-26T04:22:13Z loke````: ajf-: If you want to see what the machine language for a given lisp function looks like, just run (disassemble #'the-function)
2015-09-26T04:22:25Z White_Flame: each line performs 1 very primitive operation
2015-09-26T04:22:43Z ajf-: it's different from other languages substantially though
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2015-09-26T04:24:37Z aeth: Well s-expressions can be close to the machine language when disassembled if e.g. the machine is a LispM.
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2015-09-26T04:25:31Z aeth: Intel won the CPU war, though. Hmm... I guess we have ARM now, too.
2015-09-26T04:26:12Z Bike: lispms still used linear instructions. anything that doesn't is quite exotic. there was a lisp one but it was a research project that never went anywhere.
2015-09-26T04:26:14Z drmeister: beach: how are things going?
2015-09-26T04:26:28Z smokeink: does cl work well on raspberry pi ?
2015-09-26T04:26:45Z beach: drmeister: Things are going fine, thank you.
2015-09-26T04:26:54Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to all the Clasp progress.
2015-09-26T04:27:40Z drmeister: Yeah - I feel like I'm making progress with profiling and eliminating stupid code.
2015-09-26T04:27:49Z aeth: Bike: well lispms were afaik kind of close to TAGBODY with numbered lines instead of labels. And although tagbody isn't common these days afaik do, loop, and map/reduce/etc. ultimately are tagbodies in some implementations
2015-09-26T04:27:57Z drmeister: Feel = I am making progress, build times are dropping.
2015-09-26T04:28:12Z aeth: e.g. loop could be a mix of do (tagbodies!) and directly using tagbodies
2015-09-26T04:28:21Z Bike: "tagbody with numbered lines instead of labels" is how almost every machine works
2015-09-26T04:28:44Z loke````: drmeister: I have on multiple occasions attempted to build clasp, but failed every time. Has the build process changed in any signifcant way that would improve my chances of success?
2015-09-26T04:28:45Z aeth: Bike: not really because the instructions in a lisp cpu are kind of high level, almost like a %foo
2015-09-26T04:29:14Z Bike: like a VAX.
2015-09-26T04:29:38Z drmeister: loke````: I'm about to eliminate the need for externals-clasp - that will simplify things in some ways.
2015-09-26T04:29:44Z Bike: and what does the instructions being "high level" have to do with how jumps work.
2015-09-26T04:30:36Z aeth: just a sec, going to my computer from tablet
2015-09-26T04:30:46Z loke````: drmeister: Cool. I will try again then. When will that elimination be done?
2015-09-26T04:31:21Z drmeister: loke````: It's certainly changed a lot so if you'll give it a try and give some feedback I'd really appreciate it.
2015-09-26T04:31:41Z loke````: drmeister: OK, I'll try again.
2015-09-26T04:31:44Z drmeister: By Wednesday or so.
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2015-09-26T04:31:50Z loke````: drmeister: I'll let you know what happens :-)
2015-09-26T04:32:19Z drmeister: Drop in #clasp and ask
2015-09-26T04:32:56Z drmeister: Oh, I'll also post it at the top of the README.md file in github.com/drmeister/clasp
2015-09-26T04:33:58Z drmeister: The Boehm GC was finally patched with some code that Clasp needs and that was the last library that justified externals-clasp's  existence.
2015-09-26T04:34:15Z Bike: oh, nice.
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2015-09-26T04:35:28Z drmeister: I'm still going to put the Boehm library into Clasp as a submodule because I don't think that version of Boehm is distributed very widely yet.   It's the github version.
2015-09-26T04:35:34Z loke````: Didn't externals contain a special version of llvm as well?
2015-09-26T04:35:53Z drmeister: It did - but now that we have LLVM3.7 it's not necessary anymore.
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2015-09-26T04:40:18Z aeth: Bike: page 761,763-767 in the 6th edition chinual (Moon, Stallman, Weinreb, 1984), although all of pages 752-767 are somewhat relevant here (chapter 31 "How to Read Assembly Language")... in particular page 761
2015-09-26T04:41:14Z aeth: Bike: Class IV instructions in the CADR are "miscellaneous hand-microcoded Lisp functions". Unfortunately, I do not have access to a LispM and so I cannot look up the file SYS: SYS; DEFMIC LISP that it refers to on page 761
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2015-09-26T04:42:39Z aeth: The documentation unfortunately doesn't go into that much detail because they specifically don't want people to use these functions because they could change at any time (and the reason it took me so long is because I originally read this in an earlier version of the chinual, where it was in another spot... and I bet that some of the Class IV instructions changed between the 3rd edition in 1981 and 6th edition in 1984)
2015-09-26T04:43:53Z aeth: This is a PDF of the chapter. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/chinual_6thEd_Jan84/chineualJun84_31_AsmLang.pdf
2015-09-26T04:44:58Z aeth: In fact it looks like in this Lisp Machine, %foo *were* Special Class IV Instructions.
2015-09-26T04:45:11Z aeth: e.g. %call-mult-value
2015-09-26T04:46:36Z aeth: So it's lower level than TAGBODY, but higher level than most assembly languages
2015-09-26T04:47:11Z Bike: it's CISC.
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2015-09-26T04:47:39Z akkad: CISC BE
2015-09-26T04:48:00Z akkad: wait, we talking vax?
2015-09-26T04:48:22Z Bike: i mentioned it as a regular ol machine with complicated instructions.
2015-09-26T04:48:37Z Bike: i had a prof who coded binary search as a vax instruction once
2015-09-26T04:49:42Z akkad: or rather was it byte aligned
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2015-09-26T04:55:10Z resttime: 頑張れ
2015-09-26T04:55:23Z resttime: oops wrong window
2015-09-26T04:57:30Z earl-ducaine: resttime: 頑張ります
2015-09-26T04:57:59Z Bike: nothing about this has a tree structure either
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2015-09-26T04:59:41Z aeth: Bike: well in the most trivial sense it's a list of instructions, and thus also a tree. And I'm not aware of anything that could stop assembly from being represented in s-expression form (idk why they didn't do it in LispMs)
2015-09-26T05:00:06Z Bike: there's nothing. ccl's disassembler gives sexps.
2015-09-26T05:00:46Z aeth: clisp's byte-code also seems to work that way.
2015-09-26T05:00:52Z Bike: oh, lord, there's another language for lambda list processing...
2015-09-26T05:01:53Z Bike: anyway, point is assembly isn't organized like lisp code in any meaningful way. 'cept for good ol lambda the ultimate opcode, but nobody uses it.
2015-09-26T05:02:39Z beach: Speaking of which, some day I will extract from SICL the code for the assembler(s).  The idea is to represent an assembly program not as text or S-expressions, but as a sequence of standard objects.  That way, one does not have to invent a particular syntax for all possible addressing modes.
2015-09-26T05:03:08Z Bike: yeah, also good. fuck text.
2015-09-26T05:03:28Z Bike: i had to memorize MIPS instruction codings for a class  once, and i've heard x86 is even worse. could definitely use some proper structure.
2015-09-26T05:04:06Z beach: Exactly.  Also, for x86, several versions of the text syntax exist.
2015-09-26T05:04:20Z Bike: yeah... and they're both pretty hard to read
2015-09-26T05:04:48Z beach: Right.
2015-09-26T05:05:19Z Bike: it actually looks like this lispm had a slightly more structured representation. if nothing else it has "d-" to indicate destinations, thus sidestepping my major problem with x86 syntaxes right off
2015-09-26T05:08:32Z Bike: i've looked at a JIT or two, some of them have structured things like that but they're mostly incomprehensible
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2015-09-26T05:08:58Z beach: Still, it seems backward (or Unix-like) for the compiler to generate surface syntax to be parsed by the assembler.  It seems more direct to generate a sequence of standard objects.
2015-09-26T05:09:25Z aeth: definitely Unixish/Cish
2015-09-26T05:09:39Z aeth: C seems to have dominated the past few decades of computing
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2015-09-26T05:10:45Z beach: Also, using standard objects (by that I mean instances of STANDARD-OBJECT), it is trivial to extend instructions with additional information without breaking the assembler.
2015-09-26T05:11:12Z beach: ... whereas if you use text or S-expressions, it is much harder to maintain backward compatibility.
2015-09-26T05:11:47Z aeth: this is a good idea, do you mind if I copy it if I ever make a toy Lisp/CPU?
2015-09-26T05:12:05Z beach: Go right ahead.
2015-09-26T05:12:16Z aeth: don't worry, I'll probably implement it in a way that's horribly wrong
2015-09-26T05:12:37Z beach: I am just using it for the backends of the SICL compiler.
2015-09-26T05:12:48Z beach: Not for a new CPU.
2015-09-26T05:12:57Z Bike: i think it's been done before. maybe in that 6502 bit. and probably outside lisp all the time, as in aforementioned JITs
2015-09-26T05:13:17Z aeth: I want to design a Lisp CPU one day even though it has no practical use (it'll be too slow) just so I can learn a bit about CPUs.
2015-09-26T05:13:18Z beach: The idea is simple, so I am sure it has been done before.
2015-09-26T05:14:04Z Bike: mm.
2015-09-26T05:14:14Z beach: Still, I think some Common Lisp compilers still use S-expressions, or perhaps even text.
2015-09-26T05:14:29Z Bike: or just write out to bytes and decode them later
2015-09-26T05:14:35Z beach: Maybe because they were written before CLOS was part of the standard.
2015-09-26T05:15:10Z akkad: is alexandria the closest thing to having generics for interating on different datatypes?
2015-09-26T05:15:36Z beach: The very point of the SICL project is to revisit decisions that were made before CLOS was part of the standard.  The representation of machine code appears to be one of them.
2015-09-26T05:15:45Z aeth: Some CL programmers don't like CLOS. Iirc, pg. http://www.paulgraham.com/noop.html
2015-09-26T05:15:52Z aeth: Didn't really work out too well for him. No one uses Arc.
2015-09-26T05:15:59Z beach: aeth: We don't care much for those programmers.
2015-09-26T05:16:09Z aeth: It was released too late for anyone to want the Perl of Lisps.
2015-09-26T05:17:28Z aeth: akkad: it's the best I found, maybe someone else has something better
2015-09-26T05:17:50Z aeth: beach: how does SICL's compiler compare in terms of performance?
2015-09-26T05:18:34Z aeth: Some decisions made a long time ago might just have been made because computers were very slow.
2015-09-26T05:18:35Z beach: aeth: Given that it is not finished yet, it is hard to say.  But I put all the infrastructure in there to turn it into a high-performance implementations.
2015-09-26T05:18:49Z beach: implementation.
2015-09-26T05:18:51Z akkad: aeth: thanks
2015-09-26T05:19:42Z aeth: beach: what does it compile to? reading https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Compiler might take some time
2015-09-26T05:19:43Z beach: aeth: And it is not just the compiler.  I have a technique for generic dispatch that is faster than the one used by PCL, and therefore by (say) SBCL.
2015-09-26T05:20:07Z beach: aeth: I don't recommend you read any code at this point.
2015-09-26T05:20:20Z beach: aeth: It will compile to native machine code.
2015-09-26T05:20:29Z aeth: wow that's the opposite of most Lisp projects, where the code is the authoritative part and the documentation is absent or out of date.
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2015-09-26T05:20:33Z beach: aeth: Though, drmeister is using it with LLVM.
2015-09-26T05:21:05Z Bike: beach is an academic. gotta write write write
2015-09-26T05:21:06Z aeth: beach: what do you do for GC?
2015-09-26T05:21:14Z beach: aeth: It is just that there is code in there that I haven't decided whether it will remain once the project is done.
2015-09-26T05:21:44Z beach: aeth: A sliding/compacting collector for the nursery.
2015-09-26T05:22:01Z aeth: beach: so the whole thing is in Lisp?
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2015-09-26T05:22:09Z beach: aeth: Yes.
2015-09-26T05:22:12Z aeth: great
2015-09-26T05:22:32Z aeth: modular + all in Lisp = maybe it would be an interesting learning experience for me to try to port it to something
2015-09-26T05:22:55Z beach: aeth: Yes, maybe so.  But not yet, since it is not finished yet.
2015-09-26T05:23:05Z aeth: beach: when will it be ready (in the alpha sense) to the point of porting being a thing?
2015-09-26T05:23:17Z beach: aeth: The only part that is ready for consumption is the Cleavir part that is used by drmeister in Clasp.
2015-09-26T05:23:44Z aeth: I don't have the time to do it right now, I have a game engine project and a few little programming projects so I wouldn't have the time... So I'm not particularly concerned if it's not ready yet.
2015-09-26T05:23:48Z beach: aeth: Maybe a year or so.
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2015-09-26T05:26:05Z aeth: Ok great, I will have to remember to look into it later. Attempting to port a new Lisp would be an interesting way to look at the internals of a Lisp without having to design and implement an entire Lisp from scratch.
2015-09-26T05:26:27Z aeth: (and without the former I probably wouldn't have the experience to do the latter, anyway)
2015-09-26T05:27:08Z aeth: I think I have encountered SICL once before on #lisp
2015-09-26T05:27:34Z beach: Now if someone would take the idea of an assembler using standard objects for input and turn it into a separate project with a few backends such as x86-64 and ARM, I may be able to finish SICL sooner. :)
2015-09-26T05:27:40Z beach: But I am not counting on it.
2015-09-26T05:27:56Z aeth: beach: are you using any public domain code from CMUCL/SBCL or is it entirely new?
2015-09-26T05:28:07Z beach: The latter.
2015-09-26T05:28:14Z aeth: interesting.
2015-09-26T05:28:20Z beach: The very idea is to revisit decisions made when those implementations were written.
2015-09-26T05:28:34Z Bike: wait, backends, you don't mean having the same assembly work on both, right?
2015-09-26T05:28:35Z beach: For example, the SBCL compiler does not use CLOS.
2015-09-26T05:28:42Z beach: [or so I have been told]
2015-09-26T05:28:51Z aeth: I suspect it will probably take a while for it to be faster in general for large programs than SBCL, then. But it would be interesting to see if it's e.g. better in 10 years or something.
2015-09-26T05:29:05Z aeth: (Faster and stabler. The latter is probably more important.)
2015-09-26T05:29:09Z beach: Bike: I am sure there must be common code for different processors.
2015-09-26T05:29:43Z Bike: well, i mean, that's beyond an assembler, then you're defining a higher level language.
2015-09-26T05:29:46Z aeth: beach: well probably e.g. x86 and x86-64 but I admit the lower level stuff is probably where I know the least
2015-09-26T05:30:19Z Bike: there are whole complications in distros because you have to distribute different binaries on x86 and -64, yo
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2015-09-26T05:30:40Z aeth: yes
2015-09-26T05:30:43Z beach: Bike: Right, not the same assembly input.
2015-09-26T05:31:00Z Bike: oh.
2015-09-26T05:31:41Z aeth: beach: If there's some kind of common abstraction layer, I wonder if that intermediate representation could be implemented in Verilog or VHDL and put on an FPGA, and then you get a LispM out of SICL.
2015-09-26T05:31:57Z aeth: i.e. as a backend
2015-09-26T05:32:10Z aeth: I'm not sure if there'd ever be a use to it other than getting to the top of Hacker News, though.
2015-09-26T05:32:32Z Bike: https://github.com/kingcons/cl-6502/blob/master/src/assemble.lisp yeah, ok, there was an assembler here
2015-09-26T05:32:36Z beach: aeth: I think it is going to be hard to create a special processor that can keep up with any of the existing ones.
2015-09-26T05:32:58Z aeth: right, although maybe there are some niches it could beat it in.
2015-09-26T05:33:07Z aeth: s/beat it/beat the others/
2015-09-26T05:33:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: How about a special-purpose chip?
2015-09-26T05:33:16Z Bike: takes text or sexp input, puts it into some structs, then assembles that
2015-09-26T05:33:23Z aeth: and yeah once it's in an FPGA you could take it and put it into an actual chip, too
2015-09-26T05:33:23Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: aeth doesn't have the capital, i imagine
2015-09-26T05:33:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. describe mp3 in lisp and generate VHDL to process it.
2015-09-26T05:33:53Z Bike: structs instead of clos, oh wel
2015-09-26T05:34:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike: for some purposes, isn't an FPGA fast enough?
2015-09-26T05:34:14Z Bike: you said special purpose chip, i assume that means ASIC
2015-09-26T05:34:18Z Bike: which means money money money
2015-09-26T05:34:52Z aeth: Bike: well I thought that the general life cycle is to start as an FPGA and then later go ASIC
2015-09-26T05:34:57Z Bike: sure
2015-09-26T05:35:15Z aeth: So if SICL-in-FPGA had any useful uses, there would probably be enough of a demand for an ASIC of that same thing
2015-09-26T05:36:04Z Bike: you need a lot of demand. working in a reasonably specialized area like i do, a lot of the time you just stick with an fpga because only forty people are using it
2015-09-26T05:36:13Z Bike: it seriously costs a lot to use a fab :/
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2015-09-26T05:36:23Z H4ns: while it is easy to design a cpu to run on an fpga, designing a fast cpu that can run on an fpga is not all that easy.
2015-09-26T05:36:51Z aeth: Bike: I think that there might be as many of forty people who would want a Lisp on a chip. Which would be cool.
2015-09-26T05:37:00Z Bike: can't get a clock rate above a fwe hundred mhz, for one
2015-09-26T05:37:16Z aeth: I mean, I'm doing IRC right now on a raspberry pi because it doesn't use that much power and can run IRC OK, so I can leave it up while sshing into it from a more powerful machine where I do everything.
2015-09-26T05:37:22Z aeth: And the raspberry pi isn't that powerful.
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2015-09-26T05:37:37Z aeth: (I'm using the older one, not the newer one)
2015-09-26T05:37:42Z Bike: wait, w hat does that have to do with fabrication?
2015-09-26T05:37:42Z H4ns: clock rate, lack of a deep pipeline, lack of superscalar execution, all that is what makes cpus on fpgas slow.
2015-09-26T05:37:55Z Bike: the raspberry pi doesn't have any custom ICs, does it?
2015-09-26T05:38:05Z aeth: Bike: what I'm saying is that a Lisp FPGA would totally be usable for some niches.
2015-09-26T05:38:26Z aeth: The computer I have been using for IRC (and am using right now) is only 700 MHz single core.
2015-09-26T05:38:43Z Bike: oh, i see what you mean.
2015-09-26T05:39:10Z aeth: I could totally see replacing my raspberry pi underpowered home server with a Lisp FPGA underpowered home server.
2015-09-26T05:39:19Z Prael: ^
2015-09-26T05:39:29Z Bike: well, buy one. you can get a dev board for like a hundred bucks. play around some.
2015-09-26T05:39:35Z Bike: unfortunately you probably have to use vivado or something...
2015-09-26T05:40:27Z H4ns: aeth: your lisp system on an fpga will be orders of magnitude slower than the raspberry pi.  a 700 mhz arm core on custom silicon is a lot faster than a 700 mhz core on an fpga, if you can manage to get to such high clock rates at all.
2015-09-26T05:40:32Z aeth: For gaming and computations and web browsing, I'm not going to replace my actual computer. But I'm also not going to leave my actual computer on 24/7, if for no other reason than the extremely loud fans that are needed to stop the whole thing from overheating (like when I first built it around 2010).
2015-09-26T05:40:45Z akkad: aeth: generic-sequences appears to be what I was hunting for
2015-09-26T05:41:19Z Bike: yeah, i think 200 MHz is considered pretty friggin fast for most FPGAs running a whole synchronous core
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2015-09-26T05:42:02Z aeth: H4ns: According to htop I only use about between 4% and 50%, mostly closer to the 4%. I wonder if there would be enough cleverness to make it possible for a Lisp FPGA be able to run an IRC client.
2015-09-26T05:42:24Z Bike: imo design something for an achronix fpga and tell me how it goes
2015-09-26T05:42:28Z Bike: fuck clocks
2015-09-26T05:42:44Z H4ns: right, screw them. :)
2015-09-26T05:43:22Z akkad: xach: how does one derive the system name when it differs from the package name?
2015-09-26T05:43:29Z H4ns: aeth: it is certainly possible, but in my experience, it is surprising how slow the things are that one can design naively, in particular compared to the speeds that current cpus achieve.
2015-09-26T05:43:34Z aeth: Bike: Anyway, I think the main issue would be that most (all?) Lisps aren't done in pure CL. And the parts that aren't are things that aren't easy like e.g. the GC.
2015-09-26T05:43:39Z Bike: anyway, i mean, i dunno, fpga->asic it might be, but that's for like specialized chips, not so much whole CPU designs, who are generally made by people like intel who have money to burn
2015-09-26T05:43:57Z Bike: aeth: what's that have to do with hardware? i'm talking too much at once here
2015-09-26T05:44:29Z aeth: Bike: well the thing is, if I wanted to put Lisp on an FPGA, afaik the harder parts would be, uh, hard.
2015-09-26T05:44:53Z Bike: people die when they are killed
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2015-09-26T05:49:28Z aeth: Bike: Fortunately, a CPU doesn't have to compete with intel, it just has to be usable. And people somehow used computers in the 1980s and 1990s, apparently. A CPU design that's open source and Lisp-oriented would at least have some novelty factor for possibly a dozen people.
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2015-09-26T05:52:30Z Bike: all i want to get across is that an FPGA CPU is going to suck greatly by any measure, and an ASIC run costs somewhere from thirty thousand dollars to a few million.
2015-09-26T05:53:13Z Bike: you wanna write s ome verilog go ahead. i'll probably do that for school, anyway, as soon as vivado stops being terrible.
2015-09-26T05:53:26Z aeth: Oh, even if an FPGA CPU doesn't necessarily have to suck greatly by any measure, one designed by me *would*.
2015-09-26T05:53:42Z aeth: I'm under no illusions that there would be any practical applications, except perhaps to one day be able to run an IRC client.
2015-09-26T05:54:06Z Bike: writing a MAC is hard enough. ugh.
2015-09-26T05:55:12Z aeth: If in the unlikely event a Lisp FPGA were to be usable, I wonder if Kickstarter could solve the whole ASIC cost problem, though.
2015-09-26T05:55:14Z H4ns: aeth: what are you looking for in a lisp cpu anyway?  do you want the hardware to execute lisp-like primitives?
2015-09-26T05:55:51Z aeth: H4ns: I've recently learned that the proper term for that is "Special Class IV Instructions"
2015-09-26T05:56:06Z aeth: at least on the CADR
2015-09-26T05:56:17Z H4ns: aeth: ok, so you want a cisc design with instructions that cater for the lisp implementation, is that right?
2015-09-26T05:56:30Z Bike: indeed. most i can think of for a reasonably modern design is making bitmasking easy to allow tags.
2015-09-26T05:56:59Z aeth: H4ns: Possibly. I don't design everything upfront. Maybe this is a very bad idea in hardware. Maybe I'm about to find out when I buy an FPGA.
2015-09-26T05:57:07Z H4ns: ok, tagged pointers, something else?
2015-09-26T05:57:36Z Bike: oh, maybe you could simplify the memory controller?
2015-09-26T05:57:49Z H4ns: simplify in what sense?
2015-09-26T05:58:16Z H4ns: aeth: well, design upfront, that's not what i'm asking.  just your general ideas what a "lisp cpu" would consist of.
2015-09-26T05:59:20Z aeth: H4ns: well I intend to read both on how historic LispMs worked and how newer ideas in CPU design could lead to a considerably different/better design.
2015-09-26T05:59:24Z H4ns: aeth: i had the plan to reimplement cadr in vhdl years ago.  it would probably be possible to do that so it runs on an fpga with reasonable execution speeds, compared to the original hardware.  the issue with that plan was that an fpga alone is not enough because of the microcode size of the cadr
2015-09-26T05:59:33Z aeth: What this means is that until I'm done reading quite a few things, I probably don't have a design.
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2015-09-26T06:00:22Z Bike: like, reduce the "pretend memory is a linear sequence of areas" thing. i'm just guessing, i've never designed shit either.
2015-09-26T06:00:31Z aeth: What I would probably wind up doing is be loosely inspired by the CADR rather than directly doing a CADR beacuse the constraints are different and so it would probably wind up looking very different.
2015-09-26T06:00:44Z aeth: So, CADDR so to speak.
2015-09-26T06:01:48Z aeth: except that name is probably taken and it's been quite a few hardware generations so maybe nth makes more sense :-p
2015-09-26T06:01:58Z aeth: or car nthcdr
2015-09-26T06:02:24Z H4ns: right.  lets discuss possible names instead of going into all the fine details just yet!
2015-09-26T06:02:26Z H4ns: :D
2015-09-26T06:03:21Z Bike: tis good to be cynical on the internet.
2015-09-26T06:03:29Z aeth: well what I first need to do is find documentation that's at a lower level than that chapter in the chinual, which doesn't look like it goes into enough detail
2015-09-26T06:03:46Z H4ns: bike: i'm not cynic, just snarky
2015-09-26T06:03:51Z Bike: microcode docs suck, as a rule
2015-09-26T06:04:08Z Bike: i really don't think you should just copy an old processor, anyway, things are a lot different now
2015-09-26T06:04:18Z aeth: Bike: oh I suspect the demands of a modern CL on modern hardware would lead to different things that need to be hardcoded anyway
2015-09-26T06:04:34Z H4ns: when i reimplmented secd, i reverse engineered the microcode from a binary dump and a sketchy hardware description.  that was fun.
2015-09-26T06:04:35Z aeth: so copying the Special Class IV Instructions is probably not needed
2015-09-26T06:04:40Z aeth: In fact, that would probably be a bad idea.
2015-09-26T06:05:24Z Bike: you misunderstand. i mean the entire idea of having special instructions that are just microcoded anyway is pretty out of vogue.
2015-09-26T06:05:35Z aeth: Ah.
2015-09-26T06:05:48Z aeth: This whole thing is kind of thinking about it backwards afaik, anyway. That's why SICL looks so interesting.
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2015-09-26T06:07:00Z aeth: Instead of thinking about cloning the CADR or something, or even doing something very similar to it, it would probably be more productive to think about the minimal nice CPU design that's needed to run <insert implementation here> decently on an FPGA
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2015-09-26T06:07:18Z aeth: I suspect that the LispMs made a lot of wrong decisions as far as implementing Lisps go.
2015-09-26T06:07:22Z Bike: yep.
2015-09-26T06:07:40Z aeth: That's probably why CAR NTHCDR is a more appropriate name :-p
2015-09-26T06:07:58Z aeth: even though NTH is shorter and equivalent
2015-09-26T06:08:21Z H4ns: aeth: both ccl and sbcl can emit mips code, and there are several open source mips-like cpu designs out there that can be used as starting point for an fpga lispm
2015-09-26T06:09:21Z H4ns: aeth: the areas that may be interesting for modification of the cpu architecture may be more in the memory controller, but then, it may well be that the general bit masking instructions available in the risc architecture are just sufficient.
2015-09-26T06:10:54Z aeth: H4ns: Right, starting with an existing forkable RISC is probably more economical. Especially because I don't want to repeat all the dozens of mistakes that everyone who knows what they're doing first made before they settled on the existing architectures.
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2015-09-26T06:11:27Z aeth: So the principles will have to be very different than the CADR
2015-09-26T06:11:44Z H4ns: aeth: what i think would be neat, though, would be a common lisp that runs on bare hardware and has all those parts of CL that require an operating system be implemented in CL or assembler code written within the CL environment.
2015-09-26T06:12:08Z aeth: H4ns: right, I think that SICL could have the potential there, or at least some components.
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2015-09-26T06:12:35Z aeth: It definitely won't be as elegant as https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS
2015-09-26T06:13:15Z aeth: Just some messy hacks ont op of an existing implementation.
2015-09-26T06:13:56Z aeth: I suspect it will probably wind up like the game engine I started writing when I knew absolutely nothing about how game engines work, i.e. several complete rewrites after dead ends fairly early on. At least it's an interesting way to learn.
2015-09-26T06:14:52Z aeth: H4ns: And one advantage of forking an existing RISC too is that then the OS thing would be reusable on a real CPU.
2015-09-26T06:15:04Z aeth: Even though it wouldn't be anywhere near as elegant.
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2015-09-26T06:17:52Z aeth: And maybe in 10-15 years there will be a novelty LispM that's faster than the old LispMs even though it would be very slow by its contemporary standards. Such a thing is surely possible in n years even if n is very large.
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2015-09-26T06:18:15Z aeth: Uh oh, Intel has found out that we're talking about non x86-64 CPUs in here.
2015-09-26T06:18:31Z H4ns: aeth: it is rather easy to fight too many battles in that area.  i came to realize that there are just too many things that need consideration when one wants to build a real lisp machine.  my last project in that area was trying to replace the linux userland with clozure cl on a raspberry pi, and i found even that too time consuming to pursue for a very long time.
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2015-09-26T06:19:29Z H4ns: aeth: but maybe you are smarter and have more time, i wish so! :)
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2015-09-26T06:19:59Z aeth: Well, TempleOS exists. So maybe one day a LispOS could exist.
2015-09-26T06:20:36Z aeth: I suspect that a usable LispOS would probably take more than one person, so TempleOS's HolyC is apparently more powerful than Lisp ;-)
2015-09-26T06:20:49Z PuercoPop: aeth: Mezzano is moving slowly but moving
2015-09-26T06:20:56Z H4ns: one good way to create something that works is to ignore common lisp completely.
2015-09-26T06:21:43Z aeth: H4ns: yes, I was considering at one point designing and writing a low level lisp-like language (hopefully using that name) that could be used to implement OSes, Common Lisp, Scheme, etc. Unfortunately, that was beyond my ability at the time and probably is beyond my ability right now.
2015-09-26T06:23:09Z aeth: i.e. a very minimal lisp that could implement a lisp
2015-09-26T06:23:30Z aeth: SICL is probably a better approach, though, and it's entirely in Common Lisp!
2015-09-26T06:24:22Z aeth: So maybe it's actually easier to port something like SICL than to cut a million corners to get something extremely minimal running
2015-09-26T06:26:34Z aeth: Another also-cutting-corners approach going in the opposite direction would be to build something on top of Mezzano
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2015-09-26T06:28:37Z aeth: Whatever the approach, I think the main goal should be to try to run an IRC client on that. That requires some networking, and some way to log channels into files on some filesystem.
2015-09-26T06:29:53Z beach: aeth: I recommend you read this: http://ngnghm.github.io/ before talking about filesystems and a new OS.
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2015-09-26T06:36:09Z aeth: In the words of a popular meme, "I have no idea what I'm doing." https://i.imgur.com/l3v4P3s.jpg
2015-09-26T06:36:17Z aeth: I probably should do about 20 years worth of reading first.
2015-09-26T06:40:06Z resttime: Well on the internet nobody knows if you're a dog (aka not many will know that you don't have an idea as long as you're doing something)
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2015-09-26T07:09:06Z resttime: beach: wow that's a very interesting link, going to have to read the pages a few more times to try understanding the ideas better
2015-09-26T07:09:39Z beach: resttime: Yes, I agree.  I read it over and over again.
2015-09-26T07:09:43Z resttime: many new concepts that have i have not been introduced yet
2015-09-26T07:10:03Z beach: He has a lot of insight.
2015-09-26T07:10:43Z resttime: i think i caught a glimpse of a part of how a lisp os was kind of like handling how programs change versions
2015-09-26T07:11:13Z resttime: like way different from the UNIX packages systems apt-get, slackpkg and etc.
2015-09-26T07:11:36Z akkad: gd
2015-09-26T07:11:56Z beach: resttime: Sort of.  He is not talking LispOS in particular.  But the very existence of a kernel makes it impossible to update system code without rebooting.
2015-09-26T07:12:47Z resttime: yeah, I actually never thought of that idea outside of common lisp
2015-09-26T07:13:05Z beach: resttime: For something more directly related to LispOS, here is what I have written: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
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2015-09-26T07:14:03Z beach: resttime: It existed in Multics.  In that system, there was no need to reboot in order to replace system code.  Unfortunately, then Unix came along.  As a result, many generations of programmers have been brainwashed into thinking that the Unix way is normal.
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2015-09-26T07:15:47Z resttime: like wow I just imagine every single thing I'm running can just be updated right now like "receiving an updated functions"
2015-09-26T07:15:58Z resttime: not sure how to put it into words
2015-09-26T07:16:44Z resttime: and then control over which ones like git
2015-09-26T07:16:53Z resttime: and then no need for compile time options
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2015-09-26T07:17:18Z resttime: errr compile time options like enabling or disabing features
2015-09-26T07:17:18Z beach: Food for thought at least.  Good luck with your thinking.
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2015-09-26T07:18:19Z beach: There are SO many things we are doing wrong.  Worse, it has been known for decades how to do it better.
2015-09-26T07:18:38Z resttime: Thanks, like goodness gracious everything is so "modular" like programming in common lisp
2015-09-26T07:18:39Z beach: I think Fare found an excellent way of communicating this fact.
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2015-09-26T07:20:28Z resttime: Like argh like I'm imagining like an IRC client where one person writes the "backbone" and then I can simply piece together components to the "backbone" for everything I like or even modify the backbone myself
2015-09-26T07:20:59Z resttime: Errrr, but anyways getting off topic I'll stop lol
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2015-09-26T07:30:20Z beach: And there is a lot of strange thinking when it comes to bootstrapping Common Lisp.  For some reason, Common Lisp programmers don't seem to think that the Common Lisp language is good for writing a Common Lisp system.  So there are many systems written in lower-level languages.  Even some systems mostly written in Common Lisp such as SBCL contain a compiler that is written in a subset of Common Lisp.
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2015-09-26T07:48:07Z resttime: beach: (reading what you wrote) so in the lispos a "file" browser is actually just database querying?
2015-09-26T07:48:20Z resttime: s/just/like
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2015-09-26T07:51:43Z resttime: nvm yeah that's basically what it is if I wanted to find a file
2015-09-26T07:52:01Z resttime: Err, "file"
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2015-09-26T07:57:01Z splittist: (ql:uninstall-dist "quicklisp") about as smart a thing to do as you would expect...
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2015-09-26T07:57:52Z resttime: Hmmm a booru imageboard works in a similar manner lol (tagging uploaded images and then searching the tags to retrieve images)
2015-09-26T07:58:13Z resttime: Nosql databases like graph or triplestore
2015-09-26T07:58:27Z beach: resttime: Right.  What we call a "database" today, is usually a relational database, which implies that we are dumbing down our data structures to the level of Fortran.
2015-09-26T07:58:36Z resttime: Also I think "semantic web " is aiming towards that direction too
2015-09-26T07:59:14Z resttime: the OS is being left behind by the web :/
2015-09-26T07:59:14Z beach: resttime: Since relational databases were invented, we have made great progress on data structures in the context of programming languages.  With orthogonal persistence, there is no longer any need to dumb things down.
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2015-09-26T08:03:00Z intel: How do I control the operating system from within lisp?
2015-09-26T08:03:26Z aeth: You probably need portability libraries. Different ones depending on what you're doing.
2015-09-26T08:05:53Z intel: I just want the ability to write and from a named pipe.
2015-09-26T08:06:09Z intel: s/and/and read
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2015-09-26T08:07:39Z beach: intel: If you are using SBCL, there is a package named SB-POSIX that contains stuff like that.
2015-09-26T08:08:00Z beach: intel: If you are using a different implementation, you need to consult the documentation for that implementation.
2015-09-26T08:09:09Z beach: intel: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dposix
2015-09-26T08:10:31Z intel: Thanks, I'm download SBCL now.
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2015-09-26T08:43:54Z Heranort: how can i use usocket after i run (ql:quickload "usocket")? It said all of the usocket function is undefined.
2015-09-26T08:45:43Z H4ns: Heranort: you'll need to use the usocket package or qualify its symbols, i.e. (use-package 'usocket) or (usocket:socket-connect ...)
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2015-09-26T08:46:57Z Heranort: Could i add this loading into the init file?
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2015-09-26T08:51:09Z resttime: Heranort: you could but you should put that into your source code instead
2015-09-26T08:52:14Z resttime: Are you just now starting to program in Common Lisp?
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2015-09-26T08:52:30Z Heranort: yeah. just a new one.
2015-09-26T08:53:18Z Heranort: I even don't know how to load a package. Huh. So i guess i could find help there
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2015-09-26T08:54:32Z resttime: Hmmm, are you programming with just sbcl/clisp the REPL open?
2015-09-26T08:54:46Z Heranort: nop. slime+emacs
2015-09-26T08:55:13Z resttime: You might like paredit if you don't have it
2015-09-26T08:55:42Z resttime: Explanation of packages is kind of namespace if you're familiar with C++
2015-09-26T08:55:54Z resttime: "kind of like"
2015-09-26T08:56:16Z Heranort: is paredit a package?
2015-09-26T08:56:32Z resttime: Oh no, it's an addon for emacs that'll help managing parenthsis/s-expression
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2015-09-26T08:57:28Z Heranort: but i think i've got familiar with the parenthsis, since i used to be working on scheme
2015-09-26T08:58:15Z resttime: Check out practical common lisp if you haven't, it's a good introduction that'll quickly teach what you need to know to get started
2015-09-26T08:58:46Z resttime: Free online book if you've never heard of it
2015-09-26T08:59:15Z Heranort: I've got the book already,but haven't gone through it :)now I'm following Land of Lisp.
2015-09-26T09:00:12Z Heranort: It teaches how to create a socket server in clisp. but i prefer sbcl. Then i find the socket function of sbcl is too "advanced" for me. So I'm trying to use usocket.
2015-09-26T09:00:37Z jackdaniel: Heranort: use portability libraries
2015-09-26T09:00:46Z jackdaniel: usocket is what you want
2015-09-26T09:00:54Z Heranort: yeah. thanks
2015-09-26T09:01:07Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/
2015-09-26T09:01:31Z Heranort: It's my child-dream to create a text online game and play with my friends. XD
2015-09-26T09:01:50Z resttime: Oh and paredit will still be useful even if you're familiar with parenthesis
2015-09-26T09:02:14Z Heranort: OK I would try it.
2015-09-26T09:02:41Z resttime: By "managing" I also mean "manipulation" and such along with autobalancing etc.
2015-09-26T09:03:05Z Heranort: Sounds great :)
2015-09-26T09:03:18Z Heranort: My university is teaching C++ in the next semester. But I really like lisp.
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2015-09-26T10:03:45Z ralt: hm
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2015-09-26T10:04:10Z ralt: I wonder if it's possible to bind a key to emacs that would do something similar to "take file name, run a function with it as argument in slime"
2015-09-26T10:04:27Z ralt: filename being the filename I run the shortcut in
2015-09-26T10:04:44Z Shinmera: Look at slime-eval for that.
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2015-09-26T10:05:16Z ralt: nice
2015-09-26T10:05:17Z jackdaniel: ralt: I'd add to that "open the file again"
2015-09-26T10:05:35Z jackdaniel: because emacs won't refresh magically your buffer, it will complain only when you'll try to save it
2015-09-26T10:06:56Z ralt: I had a lisp function to compile sql files having functions in them.. I had to run (sql-load #p"filename.sql") and it would reload the functions... having a shortcut would make it almost lispy to develop SQL stored procs.
2015-09-26T10:07:15Z jackdaniel: nice idea
2015-09-26T10:07:43Z Shinmera: ralt: I did something very similar for LASS https://github.com/Shinmera/LASS/blob/master/lass.el
2015-09-26T10:08:16Z jeaye: Anyone had luck installing parenscript recently?
2015-09-26T10:08:48Z jeaye: (ql:quickload :parenscript) gives http://dpaste.com/20516P1
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2015-09-26T10:12:47Z ralt: Shinmera: nice
2015-09-26T10:13:03Z jackdaniel: jeaye: maybe you have some clutter in the cache? parenscript load fine with the new ql release
2015-09-26T10:13:23Z jeaye: jackdaniel: What's the suggested way of troubleshooting this?
2015-09-26T10:13:24Z jackdaniel: (on ECL, I would be suprised if it wouldn't on SBCL ;p)
2015-09-26T10:13:35Z jackdaniel: jeaye: rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp
2015-09-26T10:13:44Z jeaye: Sure.
2015-09-26T10:14:16Z jeaye: jackdaniel: Unfortunately, that didn't help.
2015-09-26T10:14:22Z jeaye tries clisp.
2015-09-26T10:14:43Z jackdaniel: do you have the most recent ql? maybe you have *stuff* in quicklisp/local-projects
2015-09-26T10:14:53Z jackdaniel: which doesn't play nice with new releases
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2015-09-26T10:16:58Z jeaye: Ah, I did need to update ql. Let's see how it goes after.
2015-09-26T10:17:10Z Xach: the problem is your asdf is too old.
2015-09-26T10:17:12Z Xach: using CLISP?
2015-09-26T10:17:34Z Xach: no, that's sbcl
2015-09-26T10:17:37Z Xach: very old sbcl?
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2015-09-26T10:18:07Z jeaye: SBCL 1.0.50
2015-09-26T10:18:17Z jeaye: Updated ql doesn't help.
2015-09-26T10:18:18Z Xach: wow
2015-09-26T10:18:20Z jackdaniel: sounds pretty old :p
2015-09-26T10:18:27Z Xach: that sbcl is so old, it has a very long beard
2015-09-26T10:18:38Z jeaye scratches.
2015-09-26T10:18:43Z jackdaniel: that's why it's so wise about the optimizations ;D
2015-09-26T10:18:47Z jeaye: Alright, I'll build myself a new one.
2015-09-26T10:19:07Z Shinmera: jeaye: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/85 might help with that.
2015-09-26T10:19:08Z ralt: jeaye: what's your OS?
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2015-09-26T10:19:38Z jeaye: ralt: Slackware x86_64
2015-09-26T10:19:47Z jackdaniel: btw, why people say that something is "old" when we talk about it's "past" life? I'd say "wow, that sbcl is so young …" - it's more like it has grown since :D
2015-09-26T10:20:30Z ralt: jeaye: ah. Never used slackware, can't help you there :-)
2015-09-26T10:21:01Z jeaye: ralt: I'm using the SBCL from http://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.1/development/sbcl/?search=sbcl but it's (apparently) quite old.
2015-09-26T10:21:20Z jeaye: No worries, I'll report back with a newer version.
2015-09-26T10:22:34Z jackdaniel: on the other hand people say that something is "mature" what seems to support that reversed nomenclature ;)
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2015-09-26T10:26:07Z ralt: hm, http://sbcl.org/all-news.html#1.0.50 doesn't have a timestamp
2015-09-26T10:28:28Z ralt: but there's been 43 releases since 1.0.50, so...
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2015-09-26T10:34:50Z jackdaniel: Xach: since translate is already on quicklisp should I close the issue?
2015-09-26T10:39:37Z jeaye: Working nicely now, on SBCL 1.2.15.79-c2708da
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2015-09-26T10:39:54Z Shinmera: \o/
2015-09-26T10:40:14Z jeaye: Shinmera: That was a great script, thanks. The build assumes `cc` exists, so I needed to symlink, but that's SBCL's fault, not yours.
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2015-09-26T10:56:05Z jeaye: Just shot that script over to the SBo mailing list. Hopefully SBCL can get some updating.
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2015-09-26T11:18:25Z Cymew: Did somehting break with the latest quicklisp, or is it just me who have problems loading babel and parenscript?
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2015-09-26T11:21:28Z jackdaniel: Cymew: what's version of the implementation of your choice?
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2015-09-26T11:22:31Z jackdaniel: it might be that you have too old ASDF in your system. I'd first try to wipe the cache in ~/.cache/common-lisp
2015-09-26T11:25:11Z jeaye: Cymew: I just had to update sbcl for quicklisp.
2015-09-26T11:25:33Z jeaye: In order to use parenscript.
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2015-09-26T11:32:24Z Cymew: jackdaniel: Just wiped and it still remained, but since it was both babel and parenscript I started to get suspicious. I run sbcl-1.2.15.57-d31b733-linux-x64/
2015-09-26T11:32:57Z Cymew: jeaye: Thanks for the comparison point. Maybe I need to clean and update all.
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2015-09-26T11:34:36Z Cymew: Sometimes you are lucky and you encounter something everyone else already stumbled upon and a fix is on its way. I think might have to clean and start from scratch on this one then.
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2015-09-26T11:36:17Z jackdaniel: well you sbcl is recent enough, should have problems I suppose
2015-09-26T11:36:26Z jackdaniel: shouldn't°
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2015-09-26T11:40:30Z Shinmera: I just build anew and it works fine for me
2015-09-26T11:40:33Z Shinmera: *built
2015-09-26T11:41:27Z knobo: Can I give you guys an advice?
2015-09-26T11:41:49Z Shinmera: You can, but you can't expect us to follow it.
2015-09-26T11:41:56Z knobo: (advice-add 'ac-stop-word-p :around #'ac-stop-at-end-of-paren-p)
2015-09-26T11:42:10Z knobo: (defun ac-stop-at-end-of-paren-p (orig-fun &rest args)
2015-09-26T11:42:12Z knobo:   (or (eql (preceding-char) ?\)) (apply orig-fun args)))
2015-09-26T11:42:36Z knobo: The name was not so good, I see now.
2015-09-26T11:43:02Z knobo: It makes auto-compleate a bit more plesant for me.
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2015-09-26T11:43:38Z knobo: I don't know how useful a compleation is after the #\)
2015-09-26T11:44:33Z DeadTrickster: good newz everyone!
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2015-09-26T11:46:17Z knobo: DeadTrickster: let me hear
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2015-09-26T12:12:01Z Baggers: ahefner: on the chance that you are on here under some different pseudonym, mixalot is fucking wonderful. Thanks so much for making it
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2015-09-26T13:16:16Z jeaye: In all the smackjack examples, for ajax with parenscript, it seems that javascript is still being specified, in string form, to wrap the ajax calls.
2015-09-26T13:16:19Z jeaye: Example: https://github.com/aarvid/SmackJack/blob/master/demo/demo.lisp#L129
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2015-09-26T13:16:37Z jeaye: To those who've used it: Is this really necessary?
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2015-09-26T15:19:04Z ralt: Shinmera: ping
2015-09-26T15:19:11Z Shinmera: gnip
2015-09-26T15:19:27Z ralt: Shinmera: I'm going to use qtools again. Did it change a lot since march?
2015-09-26T15:20:01Z Shinmera: I don't keep the year straight in my head. I don't think it changed much, there's a few new things.
2015-09-26T15:20:14Z Shinmera: I didn't do anything compatibility breaking if that's what you're asking
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2015-09-26T15:20:55Z ralt: Shinmera: cool. Will let you know how it goes :)
2015-09-26T15:21:07Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2015-09-26T15:30:07Z ralt: Shinmera: ah, it seems you renamed packages :-) (it used to be qt-core and qt-gui)
2015-09-26T15:30:16Z zacts: hi lispers
2015-09-26T15:30:26Z Shinmera: ralt: ? No, I didn't rename anything.
2015-09-26T15:30:48Z Shinmera: There's also no such package names.
2015-09-26T15:30:50Z ralt: Shinmera: your README is using hyphen-less packages
2015-09-26T15:31:14Z ralt: (it's still loading qt-libs, so I'm just comparing your README with the code I used to have for now)
2015-09-26T15:31:22Z Shinmera: There never were and never will be "qt-core" and "qt-gui" packages.
2015-09-26T15:31:28Z Shinmera: I'm guessing you're talking about the systems
2015-09-26T15:31:32Z Shinmera: which never had hyphens either.
2015-09-26T15:31:43Z Shinmera: This is something I never touched after I made it.
2015-09-26T15:31:45Z ralt: seems you're right.
2015-09-26T15:31:51Z ralt: my bad
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2015-09-26T15:34:20Z ralt: hmf
2015-09-26T15:34:32Z ralt: debian unstable has dependency issues to install libqt4-dev.
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2015-09-26T15:40:34Z ralt: hm
2015-09-26T15:40:49Z ralt: if I dump the image using buildapp, will it embed the shared QT libraries too?
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2015-09-26T15:40:54Z Shinmera: No.
2015-09-26T15:41:20Z ralt: ok, so I have to require my users to download libsmokeqtgui
2015-09-26T15:41:25Z Shinmera: No.
2015-09-26T15:41:35Z ralt: ?
2015-09-26T15:41:41Z ralt: isn't libsmoke.so required?
2015-09-26T15:41:48Z Shinmera: It is.
2015-09-26T15:41:54Z Shinmera: You shouldn't use buildapp to begin with. Use ASDF like shown in https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L33
2015-09-26T15:42:24Z Shinmera: Qtools will take care of assembling and prepping the startup for you. It'll also prepare a proper directory with the necessary shared libraries and the binary in it.
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2015-09-26T15:42:26Z ralt: first time I see this
2015-09-26T15:42:55Z Shinmera: Well that's one of the changes then, I guess.
2015-09-26T15:43:09Z ralt: oh, it's qtools' specific addition to asdf?
2015-09-26T15:43:37Z Shinmera: ASDF already supports dumping images now, making buildapp obsolete. But yes, Qtools does additional deployment stuff.
2015-09-26T15:44:04Z Shinmera: Making it just a matter of `sbcl --eval '(asdf:operate :build-op :system)'` and you're done.
2015-09-26T15:44:08Z ralt: where is qt-program-op provided?
2015-09-26T15:44:12Z ralt: that's very nice
2015-09-26T15:44:32Z ralt: asdf handles the cross-platform dumping?
2015-09-26T15:44:41Z Shinmera: yes.
2015-09-26T15:44:43Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/deploy.lisp#L135
2015-09-26T15:44:44Z ralt: awesome
2015-09-26T15:45:11Z ralt: Shinmera: does that mean qt-program-op is available for asdf automatically?
2015-09-26T15:45:15Z Shinmera: Deployment isn't documented because it's not entirely complete on OS X yet.
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2015-09-26T15:45:31Z Shinmera: ralt: If you :defsystem-depends-on (:qtools) as shown in the example asdf.
2015-09-26T15:45:57Z ralt: awesome :)
2015-09-26T15:48:52Z Shinmera: Specifically on OS X I want to get it to automatically bundle stuff into an .app, but that turns out to be --unsurprisingly, honstly-- much more of a pain in the ass than I expected.
2015-09-26T15:49:36Z ralt: ah
2015-09-26T15:49:49Z ralt: my plan is to make an OSX app at some point, so I'm interested in your progress :)
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2015-09-26T15:56:32Z ralt: hm
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2015-09-26T15:56:52Z ralt: build-op creating the image in ~/.cache/... is not very nice.
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2015-09-26T15:57:10Z ralt: I don't want to dive in asdf source. Is there a relevant documentation?
2015-09-26T15:57:28Z ralt: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html doesn't have "build-pathname"
2015-09-26T15:57:51Z Shinmera: If you configured your system as shown in the ASD I linked it should create a bin/ folder underneath your project folder.
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2015-09-26T15:58:54Z ralt: Shinmera: I mean without qtools
2015-09-26T15:59:09Z Shinmera: Then you need to specify "program-op" as your build-operation in the ASD.
2015-09-26T15:59:38Z ralt: yup, did that
2015-09-26T15:59:59Z Shinmera: If it's still putting it in the cache folder then I don't know. I thouldn't.
2015-09-26T16:00:03Z Shinmera: *shouldn't
2015-09-26T16:00:19Z ralt: sbcl --eval "(push \"$PWD/\" asdf:*central-registry*)" --eval '(asdf:operate :build-op :hermes)'
2015-09-26T16:00:49Z ralt: hm, ok
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2015-09-26T16:07:45Z ralt: this sounds fairly correct, doesn't it? http://pastebin.com/fZCtyDFj
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2015-09-26T16:10:43Z Shinmera: Should be. Maybe try asdf:program-op instead of "program-op".
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2015-09-26T16:17:44Z ralt: Shinmera: same.
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2015-09-26T16:29:32Z Shinmera: No idea then. Sorry.
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2015-09-26T17:04:41Z ralt: hm
2015-09-26T17:04:47Z ralt: it seems to be where the *.fasl files will be
2015-09-26T17:04:56Z ralt: and they're definitely not in the source folder for me
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2015-09-26T17:06:59Z Shinmera: The only thing I remember about the whole deal is that if I did it wrong it put it into the fasl folder. If I did it right, it put it in the source folder.
2015-09-26T17:07:12Z Shinmera: I don't remember what the criteria was though.
2015-09-26T17:09:02Z ralt: do you have a makefile somewhere?
2015-09-26T17:09:10Z ralt: using the asdf:operate command?
2015-09-26T17:10:18Z ralt: looks like program-op calls create-image: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/5ebe277f199a6a9404949eefb519b364aabbd6c3/uiop/image.lisp#L419
2015-09-26T17:10:36Z ralt: called here: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/f73f7d8b30a52d09b019e7c1cc0fd560f2d22c6c/bundle.lisp#L522
2015-09-26T17:11:59Z Shinmera: I use just the sbcl eval call I showed you.
2015-09-26T17:13:18Z ralt: do you have a specific asdf conf?
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2015-09-26T17:15:39Z Shinmera: The ASD file I showed you is all I got.
2015-09-26T17:15:49Z Shinmera: You can try building Halftone yourself. It's in QL.
2015-09-26T17:17:07Z ralt: I have to postpone qtools stuff, debian has issues with libqt.
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2015-09-26T17:17:29Z ralt: (I have to investigate and probably add some pinning)
2015-09-26T17:17:46Z Shinmera: You could try what's written at https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs under Stop All The Buildin'
2015-09-26T17:18:11Z Shinmera: Hrm though you need to change the command to include :qt4 before :smokegen
2015-09-26T17:18:38Z ralt: well, I'll need qt4 no matter what
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2015-09-26T17:19:06Z Shinmera: ...
2015-09-26T17:19:11Z Shinmera: that'll get qt4 for you
2015-09-26T17:19:24Z ralt: oh
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2015-09-26T17:19:56Z Shinmera: Just change it to (dolist (sys '(:qt4 :smokegen ...
2015-09-26T17:19:59Z ralt: got it
2015-09-26T17:20:02Z ralt: running
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2015-09-26T17:20:10Z ralt: thanks
2015-09-26T17:20:12Z Shinmera: I've never tested it on linux, but it works on Windows.
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2015-09-26T17:22:50Z Cymew: Someone knows what the heck " The value #<FDEFINITION for SB-IMPL::READ-LIST> is not of type   (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL). even means?
2015-09-26T17:23:36Z Cymew: Did my sbcl break down totally, or what does that mean?
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2015-09-26T17:25:56Z Bike: What's the code that gets you that error?
2015-09-26T17:26:50Z Cymew: I try to asdf load parenscript, but the way I parse it, something is wrong with an internal symbol on SBCL, which makes me wonder what the heck is going on.
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2015-09-26T17:28:30Z Bike: well, fdefinitions are definitely internal objects, but it's hard to say what it's a bug in without knowing the code. pastebin a backtrace or something?
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2015-09-26T17:29:25Z Cymew: http://pastebin.com/U4e9Hu94
2015-09-26T17:29:49Z Cymew: I am not sure, but I think something is very broken somwhere...
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2015-09-26T17:30:33Z Bike: oh, named-readtables again. it seems to use a good amount of internal stuff.
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2015-09-26T17:31:43Z Cymew: It messes with SB-IMPL stuff?
2015-09-26T17:32:28Z Bike: possibly. e.g. there was this issue, earlier https://github.com/melisgl/named-readtables/issues/5
2015-09-26T17:32:31Z Cymew: I have seen named-readtables on ql download stats, but never really understood what it was it did that was so useful.
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2015-09-26T17:33:53Z Bike: well, (ql:quickload :parenscript) works here. try upgrading your sbcl and everything else.
2015-09-26T17:34:24Z Cymew: What version do you use? I just did a git pull and build, so I'm rather thinking of downgrading.
2015-09-26T17:35:19Z Bike: sbcl 1.1.12, parenscript whatever's in quicklisp
2015-09-26T17:35:55Z Cymew: Hmm. Significantly older sbcl than I have. Thanks. Will downgrade to 1.1.14 and see if that changes things.
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2015-09-26T17:41:34Z Cymew: Nope. No luck.
2015-09-26T17:41:48Z Cymew: I feel something broke more seriously.
2015-09-26T17:42:00Z Cymew: What the heck...
2015-09-26T17:42:10Z jackdaniel: Cymew: maybe you have something incompat in local-projects?
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2015-09-26T17:43:25Z Cymew: I don't use any local-projects AFAIK but ASDF is a bit complicated...
2015-09-26T17:43:46Z Cymew: I can load named-readtables fine.
2015-09-26T17:44:19Z jackdaniel: named-readtables provide some building blocks for messing with readtables
2015-09-26T17:44:31Z jackdaniel: so it might be that parenscript sets something
2015-09-26T17:44:43Z Bike: that's what's in the backtrace, yes.
2015-09-26T17:46:21Z Cymew: New error after loading named-readtables at least. Bad thing is I understand zilch of it.
2015-09-26T17:48:22Z Cymew: http://pastebin.com/RgwTHcdG
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2015-09-26T17:48:56Z Cymew: Anyone know how to parse that? Looks like asdf is in a real twister.
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2015-09-26T17:50:19Z Bike: just a bunch of junk saying it can't compile a file
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2015-09-26T17:50:47Z Bike: package.lisp has some #+sbcl stuff, so there might be version problems
2015-09-26T17:50:57Z Bike: (#+sbcl (sb-kernel::package-at-variance #'muffle-warning)) looks dangerous
2015-09-26T17:51:28Z Cymew: Exactly. Junk from compile file. That was what I got from it as welle
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2015-09-26T17:53:17Z Cymew: For some reason I imagine that even with sbcl-1.1.12 I will not get this to work.
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2015-09-26T17:54:05Z Cymew: Looks like I will have to do without someones else's code for a while.
2015-09-26T17:54:06Z jackdaniel: first backtrace is more interesting - it looks that parenscript wants to rebind #\( macro character with function definition not function a function
2015-09-26T17:54:10Z jackdaniel: but I might be wrong
2015-09-26T17:54:57Z Bike: yes, that's what it's doing, apparently because named readtable's merging is incorrectly grabbing parts of readtables to copy
2015-09-26T17:55:33Z Cymew: Was that was it was doing? I know that it used to be known that you stay away from messing with readtables. Regularly doing that feels wrong...
2015-09-26T17:56:11Z Bike: named readtables is supposed to make readtable-messing easier.
2015-09-26T17:56:44Z Cymew: Feels like handing a auto aiming gatling gun to kids...
2015-09-26T17:57:07Z Cymew: Shit, named readtables changed in the last ql update.
2015-09-26T17:57:34Z Cymew: Didn't Xach hack some magic to make it possible to go back in time?
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2015-09-26T18:00:59Z jackdaniel: Cymew: from what I see only asd system has changed
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2015-09-26T18:01:19Z jackdaniel: and some hack for ccl
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2015-09-26T18:02:58Z Cymew: Look at that. Reverting to the next to newest dist worked. I need to do that again just to see if it was a fluke.
2015-09-26T18:05:06Z Cymew: It works. (install-dis(install-dist "http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2015-08-04/distinfo.txt" :replace t) for the win.
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2015-09-26T18:05:37Z Cymew: I thought I was going crazy when sbcl internal symbols started breaking...
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2015-09-26T18:06:24Z Cymew: I agree (#+sbcl (sb-kernel::package-at-variance #'muffle-warning)) looks dangerous by the way.
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2015-09-26T18:07:01Z jackdaniel: wrap everything with (ignore-errors …) ;D
2015-09-26T18:07:24Z Cymew: :)
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2015-09-26T18:08:57Z Cymew: Looks like I get to have dinner now. Thanks for moral support and suchlike.
2015-09-26T18:09:35Z Bike: you should file a bug with someone.
2015-09-26T18:10:47Z Cymew: Yeah, I think I will have to try to create a reproducable error.
2015-09-26T18:11:08Z Cymew: Will check out latest ccl and see how that behaves
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2015-09-26T19:25:36Z dim: oh my, a useful challenge for cl-abnf: http://www.savage.net.au/SQL/ --- the BNF grammar for SQL.
2015-09-26T19:25:56Z dim: and I was thinking writing a SQL parser would be too hard for the few hours I would have to put into it ;-)
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2015-09-26T20:13:48Z spyrosoft: Does anyone have a working usockets server boilerplate handy?
2015-09-26T20:14:11Z knobo: Is there any swank for emacs lisp?
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2015-09-26T20:15:20Z knobo: :P
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2015-09-26T20:44:29Z spyrosoft: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InferiorEmacsLispMode
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2015-09-26T20:53:05Z emaczen: I don't understand why lisp is telling me that I have "illegal function calls" when I've copy and pasted my code into the repl and watched it work.
2015-09-26T20:54:07Z White_Flame: did you paste it into a freshly launched instance's REPL?
2015-09-26T20:54:09Z p_l: emaczen: put the code on lisppaste?
2015-09-26T20:54:43Z emaczen: p_l: sure
2015-09-26T20:55:11Z emaczen: White_Flame: Yes, I did ", restart" in slime
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2015-09-26T20:58:58Z |3b|: working in different packages (one without a macro you use) would be one reason
2015-09-26T20:59:16Z |3b|: or without a special operator
2015-09-26T20:59:38Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3C9E -- here it is
2015-09-26T20:59:50Z emaczen: |3b|: I'll go specifically check for this
2015-09-26T21:00:15Z |3b|: TEXT-UTILS::DEFCLASS should probably be CL:DEFCLASS
2015-09-26T21:00:26Z emaczen: damn...
2015-09-26T21:00:33Z emaczen: how in the world is that happening?
2015-09-26T21:00:44Z |3b|: forgot to :use :cl?
2015-09-26T21:00:51Z p_l: emaczen: you have created a new package and forgot to include CL symbols
2015-09-26T21:00:54Z emaczen: damn... |3b
2015-09-26T21:01:07Z emaczen: |3b|: You are on fire! Correct! haaha
2015-09-26T21:01:36Z emaczen: thanks!
2015-09-26T21:02:25Z emaczen: Are there any slime utilities that would put the Error condition output into a fancy buffer or anything?
2015-09-26T21:03:11Z emaczen: For me, it is hard to see the yellow "string" text for every piece of text
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2015-09-26T21:11:05Z hydan: emaczen: If you are a beginner, you might want to check out short articles on symbols, packages variables Ron Garret has. They are really helpful.
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2015-09-26T23:35:06Z DeadTrickster: how properly wrap or decorate functions with keyword arguments? say I want to achieve this: http://pastebin.com/S5na2JUa ?I'm looking for pattern for arbitrary N so I don't have to construct arguments list for apply manually every time.
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2015-09-26T23:38:20Z Bike: (defun test2-wrapper (&rest keys &key arg1 arg2 ...) (apply #'test keys))
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2015-09-26T23:44:24Z DeadTrickster: Bike, thanks a lot I completely forgot &rest can be before &keys,
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2015-09-26T23:55:53Z DeadTrickster: is it safe to destructively modify &rest value?
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2015-09-27T00:01:59Z ajf-: This is my opusmodus score which uses CCL https://gist.github.com/ajf-/fe9b1d5251c3657ac598. When I run this code, the program breaks: https://gist.github.com/ajf-/905cfd5b5688c7e6252a. I know it might not be a direct LISP question but actually something for the developers of the software, but I wanted to make sure I'm not making something stupid here?
2015-09-27T00:02:08Z ajf-: Maybe I should wait for the return value before proceeding? Any ideas?
2015-09-27T00:02:09Z ajf-: Thanks
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2015-09-27T00:22:41Z pjb: DeadTrickster: no, it's not safe to modify &rest value.
2015-09-27T00:23:01Z pjb: DeadTrickster: (apply your-fun '(1 2 3)) ; <- you cannot modify a literal.
2015-09-27T00:24:24Z pjb: DeadTrickster: clhs apply
2015-09-27T00:24:29Z pjb: DeadTrickster: "When the function receives its arguments via &rest, it is permissible (but not required) for the implementation to bind the rest parameter to an object that shares structure with the last argument to apply. Because a function can neither detect whether it was called via apply nor whether (if so) the last argument to apply was a constant, conforming programs must neither rely on the list structure of a rest list to be
2015-09-27T00:24:29Z pjb: freshly consed, nor modify that list structure."
2015-09-27T00:24:55Z DeadTrickster: I read this and I'm confused with this may or may not
2015-09-27T00:25:06Z pjb: (let ((l '(1 2 3))) (flet ((f (&rest a) (eq l a))) (apply (function f) l))) may return T
2015-09-27T00:25:07Z DeadTrickster: maybe I'm already dead?
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2015-09-27T00:25:52Z DeadTrickster: I better just copy this list, :-)
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2015-09-27T00:28:41Z DeadTrickster: pjb, you are always there to help me. thanks !
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2015-09-27T01:06:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Do I need to do something to a function to use it in a macroexpansion?
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2015-09-27T01:07:53Z attila_lendvai: fiddlerwoaroof: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)
2015-09-27T01:07:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: attila_lendvai: thanks
2015-09-27T01:13:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I'm still not exactly sure why (trace length) would blow up sbcl. Is it just because TRACE calls length?
2015-09-27T01:13:56Z attila_lendvai: fiddlerwoaroof: length is called by a zillion things. I would think trace is smart enough to avoid blowing up because of its own recursivity...
2015-09-27T01:14:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Try it :)
2015-09-27T01:14:48Z attila_lendvai: I know it blows up, but if I had to guess it's not because of the trace machinery itself. but as I don't know... just wild guesses.
2015-09-27T01:15:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah
2015-09-27T01:17:01Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, it's because the function installed in place of LENGTH to trace LENGTH calls LENGTH (when it prints the tracing information).
2015-09-27T01:17:31Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: implementations are allowed to do that (to crash), because the standard said YOU weren't allowed to TRACE functions from the CL package.
2015-09-27T01:17:39Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: if you have multiple files in your project, putting the defun in an earlier-loaded file will allow you to use it in macros in later-loaded files
2015-09-27T01:17:54Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: it's not conforming to trace CL functions. Anything can happen.
2015-09-27T01:18:09Z White_Flame: (just as another option besides eval-when)
2015-09-27T01:18:17Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: instead, you can do: (shadow 'length) (defun length (x) (cl:length x)) (trace length) …
2015-09-27T01:18:59Z pjb: attila_lendvai: fiddlerwoaroof you need also the :execute situation.
2015-09-27T01:19:15Z pjb: for when you (load "file.lisp")
2015-09-27T01:19:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: that makes sense, I had hoped to be able to figure out whether MAP called length using trace
2015-09-27T01:19:48Z pjb: You cannot do that using trace. You'd have to look the source. In slime, use M-.
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2015-09-27T01:21:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's a good emacs configuration for someone who hasn't used it before?
2015-09-27T01:22:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: (for someone coming from vim)
2015-09-27T01:23:15Z White_Flame: configuration, or keystroke reference?  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/refcards/pdf/refcard.pdf
2015-09-27T01:23:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: configuration, that would include the various pieces necessary for lisp
2015-09-27T01:24:27Z pjb: For lisp programming, you don't need a lot:    (require 'paredit) (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el") t)  (load-library "slime")  (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-xref-browser slime-asdf slime-banner slime-repl slime-indentation slime-fuzzy slime-autodoc slime-presentations slime-presentation-streams))
2015-09-27T01:24:32Z White_Flame: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
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2015-09-27T01:48:48Z zacts: hello lispers
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2015-09-27T01:58:03Z pjb: hello zacts
2015-09-27T01:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ugh, I need to figure out why my mac won't let me type C-)
2015-09-27T01:59:23Z pjb: Probably because you're typing that in a terminal
2015-09-27T01:59:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, also over ssh and tmux
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2015-09-27T02:01:50Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: data is transmitted by terminals using the ASCII code.  Control codes are the codes between 0 and 31.  You can produce those *32* codes by typing C-@ thru C-_ (ie, all the letters and @[\]^_
2015-09-27T02:01:54Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: That's it.
2015-09-27T02:02:13Z pjb: And even, in those C-[ is produces the ESC code!
2015-09-27T02:02:35Z pjb: Notice, since emacs maps ESC to Meta-, this gives you a third way to type Meta: ESC, M- and C-[
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2015-09-27T02:03:38Z pjb: Often you can configure terminals to use set the 8th bit when you press the Meta key.  So you can type M- with any combination of printable ASCII characters AND control codes.
2015-09-27T02:04:37Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: now, not everything is lost.  Often, terminals can send escape sequences when you type eg. function keys.  And emacs can be configured to interpret those escape sequences, when it didn't already have the right binding.
2015-09-27T02:05:23Z phf: ajf-: hard to say what's going on without seeing demo.py. it looks like crash is happening somewhere inside numpy. i don't think that it's opusmodus problem specifically (or it doesn't look that way) but most likely ccl/python/threading combination.
2015-09-27T02:05:26Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: but C-( just cannot work.  You would need a terminal that is able to map detect that you typed C-( and to map it to some distinct escape sequence.  Easier done on a terminal _emulator_ than on an actual temrinal.
2015-09-27T02:06:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I'm just trying to get paredit to work and the reference card I have says "C-)"
2015-09-27T02:06:06Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: IIRC, there's some patch on xterm to do just that, to map any combination of modifier to some escape sequence.  Perhaps you could track it?
2015-09-27T02:06:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does that mean I have to use a GUI emacs?
2015-09-27T02:06:26Z ajf-: wow thanks phf, do you think I should use an asynchronous library or maybe instead of running python code read from a file exported by py ?
2015-09-27T02:06:29Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, but not in the terminal. Instead, you could bind the same command to some other key that would work in the terminal.
2015-09-27T02:06:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: makes sense
2015-09-27T02:07:13Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof:  eg. (local-set-key (kbd "C-c )") 'paredit-backward-slurp-sexp)
2015-09-27T02:07:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's why it's also bound to C-Right
2015-09-27T02:07:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
2015-09-27T02:07:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: interesting
2015-09-27T02:08:48Z phf: ajf-: a hunch is that perhaps your get_lines is returning a numpy array that somehow breaks during boxing/unboxing. a thing to try might be to ensure that the last value that's being returned is made up fully of primitive types
2015-09-27T02:09:16Z pjb: Well, I wonder what key sequence is sent by your terminal when you type C-<right> (or <right>). (Can't test it here, since it's clobbered by Aqua to switch to other desktops; I'd have to disable it).
2015-09-27T02:09:39Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: also, useful paredit commands, you can bind them directly to function keys in the terminal.
2015-09-27T02:09:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: ^[[1;5C
2015-09-27T02:09:55Z phf: ajf-: of course dumping to a file, and then doing a read on the lisp side will be the most reliable, but where's fun in that :p
2015-09-27T02:09:55Z pjb: See, no control here.
2015-09-27T02:09:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-<right>
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2015-09-27T02:10:18Z ajf-: phf AJAX would be nice
2015-09-27T02:10:56Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: Here is what I have: http://paste.lisp.org/+3C9M
2015-09-27T02:11:00Z phf: ajf-: for ajax you could use drakma/cl-json combination
2015-09-27T02:11:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: thanks
2015-09-27T02:11:32Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: it's the same for <right>, try it.
2015-09-27T02:12:05Z pjb: On the other hand, M-<right> should give ESC ESC [ 1 ; 5 C
2015-09-27T02:12:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: for right I get: ^[OC
2015-09-27T02:12:22Z pjb: Ah, well, very good for you.
2015-09-27T02:12:22Z phf: ajf-: honestly there's no reason why blocking inside your opusmodus script should crash it. ~imho~ most likely the bug is in the interaction between lisp and python
2015-09-27T02:12:28Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: You've got a nice terminal.
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2015-09-27T02:12:55Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: so you can bind it as you wish.
2015-09-27T02:13:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I put a bunch of work a while ago getting my linux terminal and my mac terminal to use the same bindings
2015-09-27T02:13:49Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: notice the input-decode-map map.  It works before dispatching commands, so it maps the escape sequence to symbolic keys, for all the potential bindings.
2015-09-27T02:14:06Z phf: ajf-: but drakma documentation shows how to do ajax with a drakma/yason combination, both should be available via quicklisp, http://www.weitz.de/drakma/#ex-response-stream
2015-09-27T02:14:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: that's good to know
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2015-09-27T02:15:02Z ajf-: this might just be a perfect combo
2015-09-27T02:15:08Z ajf-: thanks phf
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2015-09-27T04:18:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are push and pop atomic?
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2015-09-27T04:27:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess not, at least not on LispWorks
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2015-09-27T04:47:28Z jeaye: Is the parenscript author around in here?
2015-09-27T04:47:55Z jeaye: The mailing list isn't open to the public and I've found some issues for which I'd like to submit some patches.
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2015-09-27T04:50:24Z jeaye: author/maintainer anyway
2015-09-27T04:52:19Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: they're not atomic.
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2015-09-27T04:52:43Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: almost nothing is atomic in lisp.
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2015-09-27T04:56:48Z zacts: what does the term 'atomic' mean in lisp?
2015-09-27T04:57:40Z pjb: nothing in common with what fiddlerwoaroof meant.
2015-09-27T04:57:50Z zacts: ok
2015-09-27T04:57:58Z pjb: zacts: atomic is any lisp object that is not a cons cell.
2015-09-27T04:58:04Z pjb: (atom #(1 2 3)) #| --> t |#
2015-09-27T04:58:06Z zacts: oh I see
2015-09-27T04:58:11Z zacts: so a symbol is atomic?
2015-09-27T04:58:12Z pjb: (atom '(1 . 2)) #| --> nil |#
2015-09-27T04:58:14Z pjb: yes.
2015-09-27T04:58:16Z zacts: ok
2015-09-27T04:58:30Z zacts: are strings atomic, or are they represented as a chain of cons cells underneath?
2015-09-27T04:58:43Z pjb: (atom "abc") #| --> t |# in common lisp.
2015-09-27T04:58:48Z zacts: cool
2015-09-27T04:59:13Z pjb: in LISP 1.5, there was no string, only symbols, and indeed, the name of the symbol was represented as a list of words containing 6 packed characters.
2015-09-27T04:59:29Z zacts: what year was LISP 1.5?
2015-09-27T04:59:32Z pjb: 1962.
2015-09-27T04:59:36Z zacts: heh, nice
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2015-09-27T05:18:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: goodnight
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2015-09-27T05:36:42Z jeaye: Is there any way to make cl-who use a previous binding instead of a string literal here? https://gist.github.com/jeaye/7bc5288c4cc6e597f9fd
2015-09-27T05:37:20Z jeaye: If I replace alert-str with the literal, it works. However, I'd like to call into PS here for some more intricate work.
2015-09-27T05:38:04Z jeaye: The result, when not using the literal, is a <script> tag with no code in it at all. Whatever I give it is ignored.
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2015-09-27T05:42:43Z jeaye: Ah, there's a cl-who:str. Ok, there's even more the parenscript tutorial needs to change.
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2015-09-27T08:20:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-27T08:20:45Z oleo: morning beach
2015-09-27T08:21:01Z clique: morning :)
2015-09-27T08:21:12Z oleo: morning clique :)
2015-09-27T08:21:13Z Fare: beach: bonjour!
2015-09-27T08:21:27Z clique: buenos dias!
2015-09-27T08:21:39Z Fare: beach: joyeux Tet Trung Thu!
2015-09-27T08:21:52Z clique: hello oleo :)
2015-09-27T08:21:54Z Fare: (dunno how to say that in vi)
2015-09-27T08:22:07Z beach: It's OK. :)
2015-09-27T08:22:16Z Fare: beach: what would you like to learn about Houyhnhnm computing?
2015-09-27T08:22:27Z Fare: I was considering modularity
2015-09-27T08:22:47Z beach: Fare: Sure.  I was also thinking of the mess that lead to ASLR.
2015-09-27T08:22:51Z Fare: but maybe I should keep hitting on change, differential computing, etc.
2015-09-27T08:22:57Z Fare: ASLR ?
2015-09-27T08:23:08Z beach: Address Space Layout Randomization.
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2015-09-27T08:23:12Z Fare: oh, yes
2015-09-27T08:23:52Z beach: You take a stupid OS and a stupid programming language vulnerable to attacks.  Instead of fixing them, you patch the thing by adding ASLR.  *boggle*!
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2015-09-27T08:24:21Z beach: I am sure Houyhnhnms can do better.
2015-09-27T08:25:07Z beach: I continue writing a page from time to time on the POSIX interface.  The latest one is MMAP: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html
2015-09-27T08:25:24Z beach: Sorry, MPROTECT.
2015-09-27T08:25:26Z Fare: thanks!
2015-09-27T08:25:29Z beach: ... is the latest one.
2015-09-27T08:25:52Z beach: Fare: I considered writing something on ASLR as a guest writer.
2015-09-27T08:26:02Z beach: Fare: But I don't have all the insight you do.
2015-09-27T08:26:06Z beach: Maybe sometime later.
2015-09-27T08:26:17Z resttime: beach: would the tags in the lispos "file" system also be subject to tagging? that's how I would imagine more complex "queries"
2015-09-27T08:26:19Z Fare: beach: guest posts welcome!
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2015-09-27T08:26:39Z Fare: and if needed, we can collaborate on it
2015-09-27T08:26:40Z beach: resttime: You can tag anything you want.  It's a database.
2015-09-27T08:26:50Z beach: Fare: OK, deal.
2015-09-27T08:27:03Z Fare: you send the first draft :-)
2015-09-27T08:27:04Z beach: Fare: I'll try to start something, and submit it to you.
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2015-09-27T08:27:09Z beach: Yeah.
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2015-09-27T08:28:39Z beach: resttime: Tagging is not mandatory.  You tag things if and only if you want to be able to find it using the query facility.
2015-09-27T08:29:02Z resttime: hehehe I knew it so tags themselves are also "objects" :)
2015-09-27T08:29:21Z beach: resttime: sure.  As I recall, they are just keywords.
2015-09-27T08:29:36Z resttime: Err, *"can be objects"
2015-09-27T08:30:06Z beach vanishes for a while, but he will be back soon.
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2015-09-27T08:31:15Z Fare: beach: well, actually I was thinking about things even worse than ASLR, in my talk about such things in fare.tunes.org/computing/reclaim_your_computer.html
2015-09-27T08:31:46Z Fare: and when I say "thinking about", I mean "serious thinking that some day it will come to that"
2015-09-27T08:32:38Z resttime: Fare: I got the link from beach yesterday to Houyhnhnms, I thought it was great read, and still need to read it over few more times
2015-09-27T08:32:39Z Fare: also --- having not just "checksum" bits in RAM, but also "IV nonce" bits for every cache line...
2015-09-27T08:32:56Z Fare: resttime: thanks
2015-09-27T08:33:12Z Fare: I'm glad you like it
2015-09-27T08:33:18Z jeaye: morning, beach
2015-09-27T08:33:45Z Fare: can I have a tag that tags all the tags that don't tag themselves?
2015-09-27T08:34:16Z resttime: never considered the ideas in common lisp outside of the language especially as i've had no experience with computing systems outside of the modern ones
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2015-09-27T08:38:16Z Fare: "modern" ones?
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2015-09-27T08:39:04Z resttime: lol
2015-09-27T08:40:34Z resttime: Hmm, am I correct in thinking that the Houyhnhnms thinking is more about meaning from a "query" compared to humans thinking in rigidity?
2015-09-27T08:41:36Z resttime: Like the "query" implicitly gives meaning
2015-09-27T08:42:08Z resttime: Hrmmm not sure how to put into words
2015-09-27T08:44:00Z beach: Fare: I need to read the stuff in that link later.  There is a lot to read.
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2015-09-27T08:44:25Z resttime: Like something has meaning not by itself but by what it is made of
2015-09-27T08:45:25Z resttime: The inflexibility of C++ OOP vs the CLOS
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2015-09-27T08:48:30Z resttime: Like what an entity component system tries to do in C++
2015-09-27T08:48:46Z resttime: errr not specifically C++ that is
2015-09-27T08:50:17Z resttime: I wrote what I thought was a simple ECS in CLOS before, systems act on components and entities were only collections of compoenents
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2015-09-27T08:52:10Z resttime: So it's the collections of components that made an entity rather than a rigid object that does stuff (though I exploited how non rigid objects in CLOS were to do so)
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2015-09-27T08:53:11Z resttime: Hmmm, I actually think I'm just babbling at this point hahaha...
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2015-09-27T08:58:54Z resttime: Okay I think I've got it now, a kind of analogy with relational databases that I can use to link to how a lispos "thinking" is different
2015-09-27T08:59:52Z resttime: So relational/sql databases (or at least what I thin they are) about mapping the relationships
2015-09-27T09:00:23Z resttime: If I wanted to represent a resturaunt in a way I would think like location, food, items, people capaity, and etc.
2015-09-27T09:00:55Z resttime: I would create that table in the sql database and would add more things along the way when i thought of them
2015-09-27T09:02:06Z resttime: problem with that (at least what I believe to be the problem) is that everytime I add more things it might break what I use that acts upon these tables
2015-09-27T09:02:56Z resttime: (halfway there with analogy?)
2015-09-27T09:03:55Z resttime: so the link to that in computing systems is the rigidity we see in the data structures, file systems and etc.
2015-09-27T09:04:25Z resttime: link I move a file in hierarchal computing system then that's an uh oh
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2015-09-27T09:04:59Z resttime: my program can't find that file anymore
2015-09-27T09:05:38Z resttime: Then with rigid data structures  we need to constantly write translations from one to another
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2015-09-27T09:06:10Z resttime: JSON  for example
2015-09-27T09:06:32Z resttime: writing applications that take in JSON to fill a rigid data structure
2015-09-27T09:06:55Z resttime: (okay maybe now half way with analogy?)
2015-09-27T09:07:27Z resttime: So that's the result of a kind of thinking with relational/sql databases about a rigidity and order imposed by the human
2015-09-27T09:07:35Z resttime: (at least that is the impression that I am under)
2015-09-27T09:07:52Z Fare: resttime: is that related to my discussion about schema upgrade?
2015-09-27T09:09:13Z resttime: Fare: Not so sure, I'm trying to piece together a lot myself trying to understand lol
2015-09-27T09:09:18Z resttime: lots of new concepts for me
2015-09-27T09:09:38Z resttime: Trying to link everything i know as much as possible
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2015-09-27T09:10:25Z resttime: And err, by "kind of thinking" I mean "kind of thinking that lead to relational/sql databases"
2015-09-27T09:11:06Z resttime: Okay so continuing on with analogy I go on to the "different kind of thinking" and with nosql databases
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2015-09-27T09:12:07Z resttime: A triplestore database is one which is basically thought up of having lots of things called triples "Subject-Verb-Object"
2015-09-27T09:12:51Z resttime: There's just tons of these triples and only triples
2015-09-27T09:13:02Z resttime: All they do is give "information"
2015-09-27T09:14:17Z resttime: So I don't have to create a rigid table for a resturaunt
2015-09-27T09:14:36Z resttime: All I do is straight up list all the information I can about the resturaunt
2015-09-27T09:14:51Z resttime: Each piece of "information" is stored as a triple
2015-09-27T09:16:06Z resttime: Then this is when querying the triplestore comes in
2015-09-27T09:17:19Z resttime: I don't need to check if a resturaunt has this "information" that i don't need
2015-09-27T09:19:02Z resttime: i don't need to build a datasructure for the resturaunt
2015-09-27T09:19:28Z resttime: I only need to build a data structure for what I want from the resturaunt
2015-09-27T09:19:50Z resttime: any more information I add or subtract from the resturaunt has no effect
2015-09-27T09:20:44Z resttime: or less like "data strucutres" at this point but more like collections of information that have meaning for me
2015-09-27T09:21:56Z resttime: I can add of subtract "information" about the resturant as much as I want
2015-09-27T09:21:59Z resttime: *or
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2015-09-27T09:24:10Z resttime: imagine the database is filled now with information about thousands of resturaunts
2015-09-27T09:24:22Z resttime: each have their own quirks or information specific to them
2015-09-27T09:25:08Z resttime: in an sql database I would have to make a generic table as much as possible
2015-09-27T09:25:37Z resttime: nosql database the table doesn't exist
2015-09-27T09:25:56Z resttime: the "table" is built by the query of the triplestore
2015-09-27T09:26:43Z resttime: sql database i'm forced to stuff edge cases in some random entry and continuously update my table for the popular things
2015-09-27T09:26:59Z resttime: nosql database it's just more information, more triples
2015-09-27T09:27:37Z resttime: alright back to computing systems
2015-09-27T09:27:45Z resttime: so nosql database thinking to computing systems
2015-09-27T09:28:11Z resttime: (at least what I believe is the Houyhnhnm version of thinking)
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2015-09-27T09:28:40Z resttime: Err and I gues lisp os since that's the kind of thinking
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2015-09-27T09:32:54Z resttime: There is no rigid hierarchal filesystem such as the rigid table for sql
2015-09-27T09:33:41Z resttime: I give information that these "files" are required of one another
2015-09-27T09:34:14Z resttime: They can find each other at all times, there is no "moving" of files from folder to folder
2015-09-27T09:34:32Z resttime: Just "this guy needs this guy"
2015-09-27T09:34:43Z resttime: Or "this guy is related to this guy"
2015-09-27T09:35:05Z resttime: "File" browsing is the query
2015-09-27T09:35:13Z resttime: A "folder" is just a query
2015-09-27T09:35:54Z resttime: You can had have an artificial heierarchal filesystem in fact
2015-09-27T09:36:10Z resttime: if you wanted to that is, but you're not forced into one
2015-09-27T09:37:26Z resttime: Simplely just do a query with tags that introducy hierarchy
2015-09-27T09:37:44Z resttime: or the query itself can "build" the hierarchy
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2015-09-27T09:39:07Z resttime: Now moving to sharing functions and memory
2015-09-27T09:39:41Z resttime: they are treated like "information" in the nosql database
2015-09-27T09:39:57Z resttime: (at least that is the impression that I'm under right now)
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2015-09-27T09:40:20Z resttime: My "query" evolves into a program
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2015-09-27T09:41:47Z resttime: The program pulls the functions I want and the memory that I want
2015-09-27T09:41:55Z resttime: If I need a new function I write it
2015-09-27T09:42:20Z resttime: Update a function and the program pulls the updated function like any other
2015-09-27T09:42:37Z resttime: just like a query in nosql will pull the triple I want when it's updated
2015-09-27T09:43:13Z resttime: Okay wow, databases themselves can keep a log of these "transactions"
2015-09-27T09:43:39Z resttime: they do, changes to triples, insertion of new triples
2015-09-27T09:44:38Z resttime: So a function in such an computing systems can have these "transactions" logged
2015-09-27T09:44:59Z resttime: That's version control of our programs
2015-09-27T09:45:08Z resttime: version control of the functions more specifically
2015-09-27T09:45:35Z resttime: though technically a program is also subject to that since it itself can be shared
2015-09-27T09:45:48Z resttime: At all levels you can make changes and log changes of functions
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2015-09-27T09:46:40Z resttime: Bug in a newly written function, simply rollback a "transaction"
2015-09-27T09:46:57Z resttime: Save copies of your "database"
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2015-09-27T09:47:39Z resttime: Memory is just instantiation of objects like how CLOS is treated in Common Lisp
2015-09-27T09:47:44Z resttime: Easily updated
2015-09-27T09:49:19Z resttime: Err I mean in memory is just the instation of the objects
2015-09-27T09:49:34Z resttime: So what's in memory is easily updated
2015-09-27T09:50:18Z resttime: And again since the "program" is like the "query" update the function that gets used no problem
2015-09-27T09:50:27Z resttime: your program is now updated
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2015-09-27T09:52:24Z resttime: (actually wait that's exact how CLOS is)
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2015-09-27T09:53:45Z resttime: UNIX systems or the "modern" systems we have today can't do this
2015-09-27T09:54:58Z resttime: Software developers are fine writing new software up to a certain point for "modern" systems
2015-09-27T09:55:30Z resttime: It's when they want to write software that breaks the rigitidy imposed
2015-09-27T09:55:36Z resttime: That's when it's a problem
2015-09-27T09:56:06Z resttime: Forget to compile a feature?
2015-09-27T09:56:15Z resttime: Going to have to run that make all over again...
2015-09-27T09:57:26Z resttime: On the lisp os, it's just updating the functions
2015-09-27T09:57:53Z resttime: Bad update? Rollback since we've got those saved
2015-09-27T09:58:07Z resttime: Everything while it's still running
2015-09-27T09:58:22Z resttime: I don't think I have to ever turn off my computer
2015-09-27T09:58:38Z resttime: Uptime: infinity
2015-09-27T09:58:49Z resttime: Err, Uptime: until power outage
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2015-09-27T10:00:37Z resttime: software developers must overcome a hurdle provided by the computing systems, hmm how to put it into words
2015-09-27T10:00:50Z resttime: "modern" systems that is
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2015-09-27T10:01:27Z resttime: Like the tools compiling and such seem to just be some odd attempt at trying to do what the lisp os already provides
2015-09-27T10:01:50Z resttime: yes yes, like how people write a layer to support nosql queires on the sql database
2015-09-27T10:02:05Z resttime: why not just use the nosql database in the first place?
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2015-09-27T10:02:55Z resttime: Do away with the middle man, have the computing system support these by design
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2015-09-27T10:04:07Z resttime: I think such nosql way of thinking is backwards compatible too
2015-09-27T10:04:26Z resttime: err that is if everything were to update to that kind of computing
2015-09-27T10:04:47Z resttime: It's just a change in the "query"
2015-09-27T10:05:17Z resttime: I am not forced, but I can create it
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2015-09-27T10:06:34Z resttime: I said this yesterday but I think even the internet might be moving in that direction
2015-09-27T10:06:43Z resttime: "Semantic web"
2015-09-27T10:07:04Z resttime: W3C defines it as  "...a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries." If the focus is on the "query,"
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2015-09-27T10:07:21Z resttime: oops scratch that last senence
2015-09-27T10:08:33Z resttime: What kind of database created would best hold this data
2015-09-27T10:08:40Z resttime: Best allow it to be reused?
2015-09-27T10:08:57Z resttime: Houynhnm database
2015-09-27T10:09:04Z resttime: (or at least what I believe)
2015-09-27T10:09:39Z resttime: I build structures out of the data which I can then stuff back into the data
2015-09-27T10:10:05Z resttime: Err build via "queries" that is
2015-09-27T10:11:27Z resttime: If I were a "big data" company I could just tailor my query for each situation
2015-09-27T10:11:48Z resttime: Each reuse that is
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2015-09-27T10:12:31Z resttime: I don't want my data to already come forced into catagories
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2015-09-27T10:12:40Z resttime: I want it generic as much as possible but linked
2015-09-27T10:14:19Z resttime: (Whoa, future of computing)
2015-09-27T10:14:45Z resttime: okay in the lisp os
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2015-09-27T10:15:05Z resttime: It's seriously introspective
2015-09-27T10:15:12Z resttime: if a fucntion sends an error
2015-09-27T10:15:22Z resttime: it can check the internet if there's been an update
2015-09-27T10:15:26Z resttime: and update by itself
2015-09-27T10:15:51Z resttime: programs
2015-09-27T10:15:53Z resttime: literally
2015-09-27T10:15:55Z resttime: update
2015-09-27T10:15:57Z resttime: themselves
2015-09-27T10:16:37Z resttime: On error a program runs a software update procedure, if there's a fix
2015-09-27T10:16:47Z resttime: and if it does gets fixed it's like nothing went wrong ever
2015-09-27T10:17:07Z resttime: Automated and also logged transcation
2015-09-27T10:17:32Z resttime: Everything while it's still running
2015-09-27T10:18:38Z resttime: oh goodness gracious introspection
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2015-09-27T10:18:59Z resttime: The thing in nosql databases is that you can derive meaning by the links
2015-09-27T10:19:22Z resttime: so for example if "Bob has shook hands with Alice"
2015-09-27T10:19:28Z resttime: I can derive information like
2015-09-27T10:19:33Z resttime: "Bob has met Alice"
2015-09-27T10:19:45Z resttime: possibly "Bob has seen Alice"
2015-09-27T10:20:01Z resttime: In the lisp os
2015-09-27T10:20:06Z resttime: wow
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2015-09-27T10:20:23Z resttime: Derive information from the information of programs interacting with one another
2015-09-27T10:20:36Z resttime: The lisp os sees itself
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2015-09-27T10:21:08Z resttime: It can analyze itself and derive information about itself (if the procedures we right do so)
2015-09-27T10:21:15Z resttime: *write
2015-09-27T10:21:29Z resttime: I don't eve nknow what the implications of that can be
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2015-09-27T10:23:11Z resttime: I can write analysis procedures
2015-09-27T10:24:15Z resttime: Whoa I can profile all the operations a lisp os does
2015-09-27T10:24:42Z resttime: I can very easily find out what's bottlenecking the speed
2015-09-27T10:25:09Z resttime: not just a single function in my common lisp program in SBCL
2015-09-27T10:25:12Z resttime: entire programs
2015-09-27T10:25:19Z resttime: entire "programs"
2015-09-27T10:25:25Z Shinmera: Jesus christ speak of a monologue
2015-09-27T10:25:29Z resttime: entire "clusters of programs"
2015-09-27T10:26:08Z resttime: I can view everything from top all the way to bottom in the lisp os
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2015-09-27T10:26:54Z resttime: My HTTP code is doing "x y z" but "y" has bad performance
2015-09-27T10:27:10Z resttime: now i look into "y" and so on so forth
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2015-09-27T10:27:33Z resttime: Err not HTTP code but the part of the lisp os which serves HTTP
2015-09-27T10:28:31Z resttime: Okay wow and then
2015-09-27T10:28:49Z resttime: Benchmarks, you could literally compare benchmarks of the best HTTP stack
2015-09-27T10:29:04Z resttime: mix and match the best components of the HTTP stack with one another
2015-09-27T10:29:08Z resttime: modular so modular
2015-09-27T10:29:21Z resttime: Your HTTP stack evolves
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2015-09-27T10:30:08Z resttime: Oh my gosh, and then you can design an analysis procedure which finds the slow parts of your HTTP stack
2015-09-27T10:30:37Z resttime: let's say everyone uploads parts of their HTTP stack on the web, like benchmarks and all that
2015-09-27T10:30:52Z resttime: All parts
2015-09-27T10:31:02Z resttime: Peopl write similar parts some are faster, some aren't
2015-09-27T10:31:17Z resttime: I can have my http stack self update itself to find the faster ones
2015-09-27T10:31:31Z jeaye: I just put together: http://blog.jeaye.com/2015/09/27/parenscript-ajax/ to cover some of the issues I had while working through tutorials. It might come in handy for some.
2015-09-27T10:31:56Z resttime: And not just the faster ones, but faster parts
2015-09-27T10:32:03Z resttime: I can write my own tests that test these parts
2015-09-27T10:32:25Z resttime: Programs literally updating themselves and getting faster by themselves
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2015-09-27T10:33:21Z Shinmera: Cool, now get to coding.
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2015-09-27T10:35:30Z resttime: Shinmera: oops, right I should stop
2015-09-27T10:35:40Z resttime: Sorry #lisp
2015-09-27T10:36:48Z resttime: Probably was a lot of incoherent rambling i need some sleep hahaha...
2015-09-27T10:37:32Z resttime: Oh and feel free to tell me to shutup at any time
2015-09-27T10:37:40Z resttime: If I do somethinglike this again
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2015-09-27T10:49:26Z resttime: Taking my advice and off to bed, again I'm very sorry #lisp, probably made a fool of myself in past hours or so :(
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2015-09-27T11:40:55Z DeadTrickster: loke````, ping
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2015-09-27T11:54:25Z DeadTrickster: loke````, question on cl-rabbit-async. it looks like you use evented blocking io am I right? Because cl-rabbit:consume-message will block. Why you didn't used amqp_simple_wait_frame_noblock?
2015-09-27T11:55:35Z DeadTrickster: loke````, I read your conversation on rabbitmq user group with Alan. He suggests amqp_simple_wait_frame_noblock. or I'm wrong?
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2015-09-27T13:48:03Z loke````: DeadTrickster: I only call consume-message when I know there is a message to be consumed.
2015-09-27T13:48:15Z loke````: DeadTrickster: So in this case, there is really no difference.
2015-09-27T13:48:27Z loke````: That said, if you enable keepalives there may be.
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2015-09-27T13:50:40Z DeadTrickster: loke````, yes you are calling wait-for-frame if socket can be read (and that (or)) but this doesn't guarantee that socket has any or all data
2015-09-27T13:51:04Z DeadTrickster: so in case of network lags this will block
2015-09-27T13:51:46Z DeadTrickster: or big multi-frame messages
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2015-09-27T15:15:05Z drmeister: Does anyone know of  an ASDF operator for loading source?   I'm digging through the code but I haven't found anything?
2015-09-27T15:16:20Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html#Predefined-operations-of-ASDF
2015-09-27T15:16:35Z drmeister: Or it's a huge thing and I'm staring right at it
2015-09-27T15:16:44Z beach: "load-source-op will load the source for the files in a module rather than the compiled fasl output. It has a prepare-source-op analog to prepare-op, that ensures the dependencies are themselves loaded via load-source-op. "
2015-09-27T15:17:28Z drmeister: Ah, I see.
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2015-09-27T16:37:59Z pjb: beach: then, sandboxes as implemented on Android and iOS can be considered like ASLR: stupid OS and stupid programming languages vulnerable to attacks. Instead of fixing them, they build higher walls between processes (sandboxes).
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2015-09-27T17:38:04Z ajf-: sorry what was the global that holds the path to quicklisp home ?
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2015-09-27T17:38:29Z ajf-: not sure where to find that on quicklisp.org. Does anybody know?
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2015-09-27T17:42:23Z zacts: would grokking posix help me with pure Common Lisp in any major way?
2015-09-27T17:42:33Z zacts: (and I don't mean compiler/interpreter implementations)
2015-09-27T17:42:49Z zacts: I'm just curious as to how often a lisper may want to interact with a UNIX / POSIX system, and syscalls and things)
2015-09-27T17:42:52Z zacts: (
2015-09-27T17:45:14Z ajf-: found it
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2015-09-27T17:52:17Z fe[nl]ix: zacts: depends on the project
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2015-09-27T18:23:30Z nyef: Umm... Is tcsetospeed() supposed to trash the rest of the termios structure, or just alter the output baud rate?
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2015-09-27T18:29:55Z nyef: Ugh. Apparently, it's not.
2015-09-27T18:30:27Z jackdaniel: it's not what? trash the rest of the structure or just alter the output baud rate?
2015-09-27T18:30:39Z nyef: It's not supposed to trash the structure.
2015-09-27T18:30:57Z jackdaniel: right, I tought so but wasn't sure I didn't want to confuse you with my guessing
2015-09-27T18:31:05Z nyef: So, of course, guess what SB-POSIX does?
2015-09-27T18:31:12Z jackdaniel: the opposite?
2015-09-27T18:31:40Z nyef: The kicker is, this bug has been around for HOW long?
2015-09-27T18:32:23Z nyef: Might even be _worse_, if that's possible.
2015-09-27T18:33:41Z nyef: ... yeah, worse. If there are any fields beyond the minimum in the termios structure, they get aggressively trashed.
2015-09-27T18:36:07Z fe[nl]ix: zeroed ?
2015-09-27T18:36:43Z zacts: k
2015-09-27T18:36:53Z nyef: It seems so,
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2015-09-27T20:36:21Z schoppenhauer: &16
2015-09-27T20:36:25Z schoppenhauer: sorry
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2015-09-27T20:48:22Z spacerella: hello. If anyone is interested in creating graphs in 'dot', I have uploaded a small helper project to github
2015-09-27T20:48:36Z spacerella: https://github.com/djangojames/dot-utils
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2015-09-27T20:53:47Z zacts: I love graphviz
2015-09-27T20:53:51Z zacts: cool repo
2015-09-27T20:54:50Z spacerella: thanks
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2015-09-27T22:25:39Z DeadTrickster: 5am is dead?
2015-09-27T22:25:58Z DeadTrickster: what to use then?
2015-09-27T22:26:32Z DeadTrickster: 5am still works though. what will hipster use?
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2015-09-27T22:49:03Z aeth: Where did you hear that 5am is dead?
2015-09-27T22:49:45Z aeth: There is another popular testing framework, though. It's called prove.
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2015-09-27T22:51:09Z Ctoolu: greetings Earthlings
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2015-09-27T22:55:43Z Ctoolu: How do you fellas understand Eric S. Raymond's famous remark "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days ..."?  How is it helpful to realize that in C you solve a problem "this way", and that in Lisp you solve it "that way"?
2015-09-27T22:56:15Z |3b|: if "this way" and "that way" are different, now you have 2 possible solutions and maybe one of them is better
2015-09-27T22:56:24Z Ctoolu: In the end, you still have to write your solution in either one of the two languages.
2015-09-27T22:56:44Z |3b|: sure, and both of them are turing complete so can implement either solution
2015-09-27T22:57:10Z Ctoolu: so why bother learning one more language?
2015-09-27T22:57:28Z |3b|: because you think knowing things is good?
2015-09-27T22:57:40Z aeth: Lisp probably helped me understand the data structures and algorithms better. Lisp makes me forget the ;s and ,s in all those ALGOL languages, though.
2015-09-27T22:58:03Z aeth: Ctoolu: You want to learn more than one language because some things that are absolutely trivial in one are very hard in another.
2015-09-27T22:58:06Z |3b|: mostly we wish people like that would stop talking about lisp if they aren't going to use it, so we wouldn't get constant trolls asking us to either validate the argument or give them reasons to dismiss it
2015-09-27T22:58:57Z Ctoolu: |3b|: people like what?
2015-09-27T22:59:09Z |3b|: esr, paul graham, etc
2015-09-27T22:59:46Z |3b|: people who tell people to learn lisp but not use it, and who don't use it themselves (at least PG used it for a while)
2015-09-27T23:00:01Z Ctoolu: Graham?  Isn't  he the ViaWeb coder?
2015-09-27T23:00:06Z |3b|: something like that
2015-09-27T23:00:14Z |3b|: also wrote a bunch of essays and a few books
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2015-09-27T23:00:40Z aeth: who apparently never bothered to learn CLOS (or at least never used CLOS) but then misunderstood it.
2015-09-27T23:01:01Z p_l: he is bit of oldschool and never liked OOP, so there
2015-09-27T23:01:04Z aeth: Quite literally, "I have never had to use CLOS".
2015-09-27T23:01:06Z |3b|: if you don't think learning for its own sake is a good idea, or that knowing more things gives you more options, i'm not sure what we would say beyond what esr said
2015-09-27T23:01:10Z nyef: Famous for not actually liking Common Lisp, despite having written a book on the subject, and for not understanding the point of Keyword arguments until ViaWeb, at which point he realized what they were for.
2015-09-27T23:01:45Z nyef: (Have you read "Taste for the Web" and "Dabblers and Blowhards" yet?)
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2015-09-27T23:01:54Z aeth: Everyone here probably understands OOP more than pg does.
2015-09-27T23:02:17Z |3b| agrees with ESR that you should learn multiple types of languages, do some functional programming, learn some prolog, write a forth, etc
2015-09-27T23:02:38Z p_l: Ctoolu: regarding ESR's claim - the best source, I think, is The Art of Unix Programming, where he delves a bit more into the topic, and a lot of the claim comes from difference between programming as if everything is C (or maybe C++), no matter the language, compared to, well, "shaping" the language?
2015-09-27T23:02:53Z aeth: |3b|: I also agree. There are some things that Common Lisp can't do easily that would be a good candidate for a library or a DSL (in a library).
2015-09-27T23:03:02Z aeth: You're never going to learn things to add to CL if you don't branch out of CL from time to time.
2015-09-27T23:03:22Z aeth: But that's kind of the opposite of the argument to learn Lisp to write better C. It's more like learn <hot new language> to write better CL libraries.
2015-09-27T23:03:23Z p_l: I don't exactly like ESR as a human, but TAoUP is very good book that I'd recommend to everyone
2015-09-27T23:03:50Z aeth: esr has good writing and bad politics
2015-09-27T23:04:00Z |3b|: maybe you will find some bad things about C that you hadn't previously noticed, then realize you don't actually need C for a particular project (or at least not for all of it), and either finish faster or write safer code or whatever
2015-09-27T23:04:02Z aeth: but hey no one can be an expert in everything
2015-09-27T23:04:35Z |3b|: or maybe you will run into some techniques that aren't popular in C, but that are not too hard to use in C and could help with something that would have otherwise been more annoying to implement
2015-09-27T23:05:33Z |3b|: most of us think you should learn CL and then use CL though, or we wouldn't be here
2015-09-27T23:05:53Z |3b|: or even if you don't use CL, realize there are other better options than C and use one of those
2015-09-27T23:07:08Z Ctoolu: I suppose by now the need to write C functions is confined to app specific needs, since there seem to be plenty of system call functions already done.
2015-09-27T23:07:50Z aeth: |3b|: re: the techniques thing. It definitely works in all languages, although probably higher level ones than C, e.g. ones that support closures. Lisp programmers probably use closures more in those languages. And other higher-order function stuff.
2015-09-27T23:07:52Z |3b|: "need to write C functions"?
2015-09-27T23:08:09Z aeth: C's a bit too low level to directly be able to use Lisp style.
2015-09-27T23:08:51Z Ctoolu: But isn't in defense of Lisp that it is pointed out that it can call C functions?
2015-09-27T23:09:26Z |3b|: that is mostly useful for calling system libraries and things like that
2015-09-27T23:09:31Z p_l: everything can call everything if you spend enough time on that
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2015-09-27T23:09:50Z |3b|: unlike some languages, CL has fast enough compilers that you don't usually need to write things in C just to improve performance
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2015-09-27T23:10:13Z aeth: Ctoolu: You can write operating systems in stuff other than C. Some are written in C++. Iirc, Microsoft tried to do .NET OOP ones but they were too slow (probably Microsoft's fault there). And then of course there are e.g. LispMs. And more trivially the OSes that existed before Unix and C.
2015-09-27T23:10:23Z aeth: I think some OS stuff in the 1980s was done in Pascal.
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2015-09-27T23:10:51Z |3b|: for example implementing your own drivers for a modern GPU would be impractical in any language, so there isn't much choice but calling some C API supported by the existing drivers
2015-09-27T23:10:52Z aeth: Lisp is an old language so it definitely fits into the "fast enough to write OS" category, especially with the optimizations in modern implementations.
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2015-09-27T23:12:09Z p_l: aeth: the .NET OS from Microsoft was fast enough - but it was a research OS and couldn't really be used in production, afaik
2015-09-27T23:12:14Z pjb: aeth: yeah, "some OS stuff".  Fuck, the whole MacOS was written in Pascal!
2015-09-27T23:12:16Z |3b|: it's like saying people defend C by saying it can call out to asm
2015-09-27T23:12:16Z Ctoolu: Aside from speed, the availability of scads of C libraries that one does not need to write ... seems to be a convenience of a language that calls other languages functions.
2015-09-27T23:12:33Z aeth: p_l: oh, I read that they killed it for performance reasons. I guess that was wrong.
2015-09-27T23:12:43Z |3b|: sure, and that's why pretty much every language has implementations that can call C
2015-09-27T23:12:59Z |3b|: it isn't a particularly special feature
2015-09-27T23:13:04Z p_l: |3b|: eh, you can write modern GPU driver in anything, most of it is compiler these days. It's the GPU-side OS that might need something like LIL or the stuff used to write VLM
2015-09-27T23:13:37Z p_l: well, it's more that "calling C" is, outside Windows, "calling the OS ABI" that also happens to be in-line with C
2015-09-27T23:13:39Z |3b|: p_l: somehow i don't think i would suceed in writing a full GPU driver in any language before the next GPU i wanted was released
2015-09-27T23:14:08Z p_l: |3b|: well, there's that. But significant part of the drivers these days is apparently fixes for broken userland
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2015-09-27T23:14:11Z |3b|: p_l: was more referring to the impracticality of doing something of that scale, without information, fast enough to be meaningful, just to avoid calling C
2015-09-27T23:14:17Z p_l: ah, that, yeah
2015-09-27T23:14:40Z p_l: though there had been few cases where people said "screw the drivers" (most importantly, PS1, PS2 and PS3)
2015-09-27T23:15:12Z aeth: Ctoolu: ime the only reason you'd want to use C or C++ with Lisp is because it's a large library that's already written. There might also be some niche performance issues, perhaps in memory usage?
2015-09-27T23:15:12Z p_l: the official libs for PlayStation till PS4 were afaik quite shitty
2015-09-27T23:15:38Z aeth: It's faster to write something in Lisp, but it's even faster to use something that's already written.
2015-09-27T23:15:39Z p_l: aeth: CFFI and/or using your implementation's low-level stuff is usually better than calling to C
2015-09-27T23:18:01Z p_nathan: "But isn't in defense of Lisp that it is pointed out that it can call C functions?"  A sufficiently trained monkey can hit buttons that call out to C functions
2015-09-27T23:18:35Z Ctoolu: I guess my difficulty is in seeing how Lisp skills are transferable to C ... or from any language to any other.  In the end, you have to do a solution the way it's done in the lang. your're using.
2015-09-27T23:18:41Z p_l: that reminds me that I need to finally sit down and write something, my skills are atrophying
2015-09-27T23:18:43Z aeth: p_nathan: yeah but that would be to slow to use in production code
2015-09-27T23:18:45Z p_nathan: wire button to GPIO pin, have interrupt trigger a C function.
2015-09-27T23:19:04Z |3b|: Ctoolu: programming is much more than syntax
2015-09-27T23:19:09Z p_l: Ctoolu: you don't transfer the skills to C, you gain more understanding about programming that you can apply to any language
2015-09-27T23:19:28Z p_nathan: aeth: in a sufficiently Enterprise environment, predictability beats speed. So long as the monkey calls it within a month reliably....
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2015-09-27T23:21:09Z p_nathan: Ctoolu: broadly, study big-step and small-step semantics. there are semantical capabilities that today's machine-linked languages (Algol/C family) can not represent elegantly. In order to use them in an actual computer with any elegance, you have to use a *different* language, like Lisp or Haskell.
2015-09-27T23:21:13Z aeth: p_nathan: oh so that's why certain websites take forever to load
2015-09-27T23:21:19Z p_nathan: absolutely
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2015-09-27T23:21:40Z Ctoolu: Seems, then, that ESR was praising the high level perspective about programming techniques that Lisp gives.
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2015-09-27T23:24:01Z resttime: Homoiconity does away with a lot of syntax so you are a lot closer to the ideas behind the code
2015-09-27T23:25:04Z p_nathan: let's push back at the heart of the idea: why do you care what esr, pg, etc thinks? learn the underlying semantics & ideas of computation
2015-09-27T23:25:12Z resttime: Representation of tree like structures in C like languages vs Lisp for example
2015-09-27T23:25:44Z p_nathan: boiling the situation down to the essence, what these people are saying is "get an education in what computation IS, not just what a computer happens to do today"
2015-09-27T23:26:10Z Ctoolu: That's a good thing.
2015-09-27T23:26:27Z resttime: Just car and cdr, no need to muck about with {}*.void-> etc. etc.
2015-09-27T23:26:41Z aeth: Ctoolu: There's quite an overlap between solutions in any language, but you might have to use substitutes when the best option doesn't exist. E.g. in Common Lisp you can pass around :foo keywords, while in a lot of scripting languages afaik you need to use "foo" strings instead for similar uses. I think a lot of languages would use enum for this particular use case, but it's a lot more structured up front so there's a cost in programmer tim
2015-09-27T23:26:59Z aeth: *time.
2015-09-27T23:27:20Z p_nathan: Lisp happens to be *one* way of approaching that, and most skilled Lispers have wide knowledge of other paradigms and systems; they happen to prefer Lisp for a variety of advantages that are not clear to someone who is poking their head in and looking about
2015-09-27T23:27:35Z p_nathan: (By the way, #lisp - is there a Standard Response Document to this question? )
2015-09-27T23:28:04Z p_l: also, many lispers just like lisp, but use what fits best for the task at hand
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2015-09-27T23:34:17Z aeth: Hmm... It looks like Lisp also has something like an enum as (deftype foo () '(member :foo :bar :baz)) but it's not required unlike some other languages where enums are afaik basically *the* solution if you don't want to use strings.
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2015-09-27T23:35:04Z phf: p_nathan: i send people to http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html, though it might seem condescending
2015-09-27T23:35:32Z p_nathan: Hum
2015-09-27T23:36:45Z Ctoolu: An ideal programming environment would allow you to "speak" your wishes, and it would know what you mean: "Gather totals in receipts for taxable and exempt expenses and project next year's liability by new rules."  OOP tried to arrive to abstractions by way of classes ... but it's still clunky; you had to manually capture everything in foundation classes.
2015-09-27T23:36:51Z aeth: Anyway, I guess my point is usually the solutions are very similar between languages, they just have subtle differences that often make coding less efficient either in computer time or programmer time. And then sometimes they're not easy at all in a language without a library or a scripting language (although C probably has them)
2015-09-27T23:37:37Z aeth: Often you'll see e.g. Java or JavaScript patched to support features that better languages have had all along.
2015-09-27T23:38:04Z aeth: So learn Lisp so that you can still code Java or C in 20 years. :-p
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2015-09-27T23:39:18Z Ctoolu: - - - brb, afk - - -
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2015-09-27T23:40:59Z aeth: Ctoolu: You're talking about fifth generation programming languages afaik. The problem is that they're harder to implement than they might seem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_programming_language
2015-09-27T23:43:41Z aeth: (You might be talking about 4th generation, actually. I'm not entirely sure where the line is and Wikipedia seems to be equally confused, listing things that look like 3GLs in the list of 4GLs)
2015-09-27T23:44:16Z phf: you'd think all those folk stories about botched contracts with higher power would teach us something, nope, "speak your wishes". "computer! solve halting problem for me! computer?"
2015-09-27T23:46:23Z aeth: The closest you can probably get is certain libraries or DSLs like SQL. Maybe put a natural language processing interface on top (maybe with voice recognition?)
2015-09-27T23:46:53Z aeth: It's going to understand some things very, very, very well and it's going to seem very stupid on a lot of other things, and I don't think there's a way to intuitively know where it's going to be strong without knowing how it's implemented.
2015-09-27T23:47:26Z p_nathan: That's not what Google's voice told me. It said it knew everything. >.>
2015-09-27T23:48:38Z aeth: I think Wolfram Alpha tries to be this (minus the voice recognition) and iirc it's not very good besides helping people with integrals or something. (It's a plus that it can read 4+ different ways to write math syntax, even though it sometimes misreads it.) Although I think SIRI and maybe a few others now use it as one of their backends.
2015-09-27T23:49:26Z aeth: And Wolfram Alpha is further limited because it tries to sell a subscription for most of its features, so even most of the few things it *can* do are off limits unless you want to pay.
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2015-09-27T23:50:52Z aeth: A combination of e.g. the infobox on Wikipedia for facts and Wolfram Alpha for math probably can do a lot.
2015-09-27T23:52:02Z aeth: I don't like Wolfram Alpha though because (1) it's proprietary, (2) it keeps trying to sell you Mathematica and/or a subscription, and (3) Wolfram's not a nice guy (generally people who name things after themselves aren't).
2015-09-27T23:53:00Z aeth: This is #lisp, someone needs to make a Maxima Alpha.
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2015-09-28T01:42:44Z emaczen`: what is ESR?
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2015-09-28T01:48:44Z p_l: Eric S. Raymond
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2015-09-28T01:51:21Z aeth: In the old days, when not too many people were on the Internet, I guess some people could get by with (format nil "~A~A~A" first-initial middle-initial last-initial)
2015-09-28T01:52:23Z emaczen`: haha
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2015-09-28T01:52:47Z aeth: (assume the variables are from accessors in a with-accessors form that is not pictured)
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2015-09-28T01:53:31Z aeth: (or maybe just a simple let and then a call on the accessors would be easier)
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2015-09-28T01:59:51Z pjb: Hence nicks like pjb, rms, etc.
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2015-09-28T02:02:55Z PuercoPop: DeadTrickster: 5am is not dead, but it does seem that its considered 'feature complete' so the code base is mostly left untouched. However, read register-test if you are consider using it. I would use prove. But also consider 1am, which has a similar (but reduced) api to 5am written by the author of lparallel. It also shuffles test order.
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2015-09-28T02:05:53Z Bike: pillton: no
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2015-09-28T03:04:24Z emaczen`: What are the values for :if-does-not-exist can accept for with-open-file
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2015-09-28T03:04:34Z emaczen`: all I see on the hyperspec is for warnings about passing NIL
2015-09-28T03:07:18Z nyef: Anything should be legitimate, given what it does.
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2015-09-28T03:10:15Z drmeister: I'm serializing data using the printer and it's putting everything (150MB) of text on one line.   I'd like to break the lines up somewhere around 80 characters without printing all the white-space using the pretty-printer.
2015-09-28T03:10:21Z drmeister: Is there any way to do this?
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2015-09-28T03:19:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-09-28T03:21:28Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-09-28T03:32:31Z pillton: drmeister: Use the pretty printer and bind *print-right-margin*.
2015-09-28T03:33:52Z pillton: Bike: Ok. Thanks.
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2015-09-28T03:35:01Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-09-28T03:49:50Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-09-28T03:50:48Z drmeister: You have printing of AST's already set up - but you use the '[' reader macro - should I use that or override it with my own printer/reader?
2015-09-28T03:51:30Z drmeister: As in:
2015-09-28T03:51:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/yQa59jGt/
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2015-09-28T03:52:43Z beach: You should probably turn it into a form to be used with LOAD-TIME-VALUE.
2015-09-28T03:53:22Z beach: ... so that evaluating that form will create an isomorphic AST.
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2015-09-28T03:54:02Z beach: Isn't there already code in there for doing that?
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2015-09-28T03:55:00Z beach: I guess not.
2015-09-28T03:55:04Z beach: Maybe I can work on that.
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2015-09-28T03:56:27Z beach: drmeister: I suggest you leave that to me, so that you can work on Clasp-specific stuff instead.
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2015-09-28T04:09:08Z drmeister: beach: Thanks.
2015-09-28T04:09:16Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you online?
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2015-09-28T04:11:06Z drmeister: I think I have a bug in ECL - I wonder if someone had a moment to confirm it.
2015-09-28T04:11:19Z drmeister: It's in Clasp as well - of course.
2015-09-28T04:11:48Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AnKbJ99H/
2015-09-28T04:11:55Z drmeister: Loading this into ECL gives me:
2015-09-28T04:12:07Z drmeister: #S(FOO::BAR :FOO::A 1 :FOO::B 2)
2015-09-28T04:12:19Z drmeister: :FOO::A and :FOO::B  are not good
2015-09-28T04:12:39Z White_Flame: emaczen: "Options are used as keyword arguments to OPEN. "
2015-09-28T04:12:46Z White_Flame: clhs open
2015-09-28T04:12:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm
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2015-09-28T04:20:32Z drmeister: Yep, it's a bug
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2015-09-28T04:22:03Z drmeister: What's the quickest way to convert a regular symbol into a keyword symbol?  (intern (symbol-name foo) :keyword)  ?
2015-09-28T04:22:47Z White_Flame: I would assume so
2015-09-28T04:25:13Z loke: drmeister: What do you mean "quickest"?
2015-09-28T04:25:23Z drmeister: Yeah, we (ECL/Clasp) don't appear to store the slot definition initarg
2015-09-28T04:25:51Z drmeister: I was hoping not to have to intern a string at runtime.
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2015-09-28T04:25:56Z loke: Quicker in terms of performance would be (intern (symbol-name foo) (load-time-value (find-package "KEYWORD")))
2015-09-28T04:26:27Z drmeister: Ah - that's good - got it.
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2015-09-28T04:28:36Z beach: (load-time-value (intern (symbol-name foo) (find-package "KEYWORD")))
2015-09-28T04:29:03Z loke: I'd expect any decent compiler to optimise your code to do the same though
2015-09-28T04:30:22Z loke: Hmm, seems SBCL is not doing that
2015-09-28T04:31:03Z loke: beach: Huh? That makes no sense. Unless you meant to write (symbol-name 'foo)
2015-09-28T04:31:20Z loke: beach: If that's the case, then why not simply write :FOO ?
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2015-09-28T04:41:29Z pillton: Is there a (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions)) equivalent in CCL?
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2015-09-28T04:55:04Z PuercoPop: pillton: idk, but (apropos "muffle") points to uiop:with-muffled-conditions which seems to do the trick.
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2015-09-28T05:17:27Z pillton: PuercoPop: That isn't the same as the sb-ext:muffle-conditions declaration. I want signals muffled in certain places, not all places.
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2015-09-28T05:19:37Z pillton: I guess I'll have to resort to macro foo.
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2015-09-28T05:21:57Z White_Flame:  Did Genera ever have much open source written for it? Curious to see what actual application code was like
2015-09-28T05:23:42Z PuercoPop: pillton: so you could wrap the places you want signals muffled with with-muffled-contions. Or am I misunderstanding what your goal is?
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2015-09-28T05:29:26Z pillton: PuercoPop: That is the goal yes.
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2015-09-28T05:31:05Z Bike: sbcl's manual talks about muffle-conditions as if it's about compile-time conditions
2015-09-28T05:31:28Z Bike: which would make sense, since otherwise it's hard to see how banning conditions lexically is even coherent
2015-09-28T05:32:24Z pillton: That is why it is a declaration. You are telling the compiler what to do in certain situations.
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2015-09-28T05:35:06Z Bike: so that's different from uiop's
2015-09-28T05:35:37Z Bike: ccl doesn't usually output enough compiler junk for me to care, honestly.
2015-09-28T05:36:18Z pjb: White_Flame: improbable.  Lisp Machines and genera were right in the middle of the privative software wave.
2015-09-28T05:36:35Z pjb: White_Flame: this is even (almost) because of them that RMS started GNU emacs.
2015-09-28T05:36:44Z White_Flame: right
2015-09-28T05:37:03Z pillton: Bike: I agree. It is being triggered from a function proclaimation.
2015-09-28T05:37:33Z pillton: It is polluting my unit test output.
2015-09-28T05:37:57Z pjb: White_Flame: on the other hand, notice that the sources of LispMachine and genera system software were available to the customers (I believe).
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2015-09-28T06:15:56Z PuercoPop: pillton: ok I see my error now. You could defining your own asdf component for a file-wide muffling for conditions and specialize an around method for perfom compile-op
2015-09-28T06:16:18Z PuercoPop: but it seems to much of a hassle for an inadequate solution
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2015-09-28T06:39:09Z jackdaniel: drmeister: I'm now online. Yeah, I can confirm this
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2015-09-28T06:41:53Z jackdaniel: drmeister: but it's a printer problem (?) I mean - symbols 'bar, 'a and 'b are interned in the "FOO" package
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2015-09-28T07:09:45Z Ctoolu: Is Common Lisp a systems programming language, or an inter-applications "glue" scripting language?
2015-09-28T07:10:04Z p_l: it is whatever you need it to be, but technically it's systems programming language
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2015-09-28T07:15:08Z aeth: Here's exaclty the original intended purpose of Common Lisp (Common Lisp the Language itself is out of date; use the HyperSpec as a reference): https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node6.html#SECTION00510000000000000000
2015-09-28T07:15:58Z Ctoolu: thanks
2015-09-28T07:18:28Z aeth: It's out of date though so of course things are different now
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2015-09-28T07:27:45Z Ctoolu: I wonder why Unix was not coded in Lisp back in the day . . .
2015-09-28T07:28:13Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: check out the article "worse is better" ;-)
2015-09-28T07:28:20Z aeth: http://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
2015-09-28T07:28:31Z aeth: ah, damn, I was getting the link and someone else took the easy route and beat me to it
2015-09-28T07:29:12Z p_l: Ctoolu: Unix was coded with 32kb of memory and 64kb of address space, or something around that. Comparately, Lisp of the time ran on machines 2~3 magnitudes higher in spec
2015-09-28T07:29:47Z Ctoolu: ah, the Lisp machines, eh?
2015-09-28T07:29:51Z p_l: PDP-10
2015-09-28T07:30:08Z p_l: (also bunch of others, but PDP-10 represented a big chunk)
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2015-09-28T07:30:55Z Ctoolu: which machine was Unix made on?
2015-09-28T07:31:13Z aeth: probably a Unix box ;-)
2015-09-28T07:31:25Z p_l: Generally, PDP-7 that Unix started on was a tiny machine that was used because it was free from being used for other projects, and few people wanted to play around with ideas and run a computer game
2015-09-28T07:32:50Z p_l: it had probably less power than IBM 5150 PC, and needed to be multi-user and multi-program
2015-09-28T07:33:19Z Ctoolu: that was the first IBM PC?
2015-09-28T07:33:44Z p_l: 1yes
2015-09-28T07:34:02Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer
2015-09-28T07:34:08Z aeth: very quick Wikipedia verifies that
2015-09-28T07:34:44Z p_l: and PDP-7 cost $72k at time of release, which would be much more today
2015-09-28T07:35:17Z Ctoolu: and Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie worked in New Jersey (which would fit the NJ vs. MIT model)?
2015-09-28T07:35:24Z p_l: „The standard memory capacity was 4K words (9 kB) but expandable up to 64K words (144 kB).[2]”
2015-09-28T07:35:56Z aeth: $72,000 in 1965 is $544,722.29 today according to http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
2015-09-28T07:36:20Z p_l: Ctoolu: most importantly, lisp OS was far in the future at the time, and they were explicitly making a most simple OS based on their experiences with Multics
2015-09-28T07:36:34Z p_l: Multics was made on hw that could have accepted a LispOS even back then, I guess
2015-09-28T07:37:24Z p_l: the other issue is that LispOS in the style of LispMachines wasn't acceptable back then (they were one of the first individual workstations)
2015-09-28T07:37:25Z Ctoolu: and there are no vestiges left of LispOS?
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2015-09-28T07:37:37Z aeth: GNU Emacs
2015-09-28T07:37:43Z aeth: so, not much of one
2015-09-28T07:37:56Z p_l: Except GNU Emacs is quite explicitly separate from Lisp OS Emacs
2015-09-28T07:38:12Z aeth: right, the Lisp OS ones were better
2015-09-28T07:38:24Z p_l: (Emacs origin's are completely separate from lisp, but convergent due to original environment of Emacs)
2015-09-28T07:38:30Z aeth: GNU Emacs is more of a cousin than a descendant afaik
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2015-09-28T07:39:00Z jackdaniel: By Lisp OS do ou refere to genera or something else? Or just a general reference to the possible operating system which never existed?
2015-09-28T07:39:10Z Ctoolu: so LispOS never saw any implementation, or partial implementation?
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2015-09-28T07:41:02Z aeth: https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=!w%20lispm
2015-09-28T07:41:30Z p_l: Ctoolu: Original lisp machine (from MIT), then it's direct clones, then LMI, Symbolics (Genera), TI Explorer, InterLisp, Racal Norsk (died before release), some embedded stuff ranging from spaceships to one crazy guys phone, at least two or three different attempts on PC...
2015-09-28T07:41:48Z jackdaniel: aeth: "Strony ,,Lispm'' nie ma w Wikipedii …" *and* you mentioned LispOS not Lisp Machines
2015-09-28T07:41:58Z aeth: my bad
2015-09-28T07:42:42Z aeth: Ctoolu: LispOSes were on special machines built for that purpose, not on generic hardware.
2015-09-28T07:42:56Z aeth: At least at first. Then it was too late.
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2015-09-28T07:44:14Z p_l: Ctoolu: last version of Genera and afaik either Xerox's or TI Lisp OSes had implementations running on UNIX workstations in virtual machine, similar to Bell Lab's Inferno
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2015-09-28T07:46:12Z lieven: cpus have become faster in that measure that a current intel running an emulation of alpha running an emulation of genera runs faster than the original
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2015-09-28T07:47:17Z p_l: lieven: it's not an emulation of alpha - it's actually a translation of the original code
2015-09-28T07:48:19Z p_l: alpha emulated on open source or free licenses of commercial emulators is quite slow :/
2015-09-28T07:49:05Z lieven: fair enough
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2015-09-28T07:53:27Z Ctoolu: when Intel CPUs went from 32 bit to 64 bit, did the Lisp interpreters have to be recoded for 64 bits?
2015-09-28T07:54:00Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: most of them are actually compilers not interpreters
2015-09-28T07:55:05Z jackdaniel: and the answer is - no they didn't like most of the software - 64bit can run 32bit applications
2015-09-28T07:55:25Z jackdaniel: but many implementations move forward, because 64bit opens nice ways to make things faster
2015-09-28T07:56:03Z Ctoolu: i see
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2015-09-28T07:57:03Z jackdaniel: (and I'm talking about Common Lisp, don't know about other Lisps)
2015-09-28T07:58:30Z loke: jackdaniel: "other lisps"... You know full well that those have other names. :-)
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2015-09-28T07:59:33Z jackdaniel: loke: I consider "Lisp" a language family hence "Lisps" is general name for all the pack including CL, scheme, emacs lisp, Clojure, PicoLisp, NewLisp and others I don't know about
2015-09-28T08:00:05Z jackdaniel: for me - I understand the other opinion that CL is the only true lisp, rest isn't (I just don't agree with it)
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2015-09-28T08:00:46Z aeth: Lisps that probably weren't updated for x86-64: LISP 1, LISP 1.5, Stanford LISP, MACLISP, InterLisp, Franz Lisp, XLISP, ZetaLisp / Lisp Machine Lisp.
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2015-09-28T08:01:04Z aeth: Lisps that probably were: the ones that are still alive.
2015-09-28T08:01:48Z aeth: (which isn't all Common Lisps)
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2015-09-28T08:13:38Z Ctoolu: Do Lisp-based scripting languages exist, as opposed to systems-programming type of Lisp dialects?
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2015-09-28T08:14:39Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: CL is good pick for scripting too. Scheme is way more lightweight on the other hand and is official GNU language extension (namely guile implementation)
2015-09-28T08:14:47Z jackdaniel: is a good pick°
2015-09-28T08:15:02Z jackdaniel: for the scripting°
2015-09-28T08:16:17Z Ctoolu: ok
2015-09-28T08:16:40Z yvm: How do I convert alien pointer (SAP) to simple vector with sb-alien?
2015-09-28T08:16:42Z jackdaniel: for hashbang you have cl-launch (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9796353/writing-common-lisp-code-that-executes-from-the-command-line-but-not-inside-the/28360935#28360935 as an example)
2015-09-28T08:17:04Z jackdaniel: to save space (if you use sbcl) you probably want to wrap your scripts in multicall binary form
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2015-09-28T08:18:22Z jackdaniel: yvm: is there any reason you're not using CFFI? (lack of functionality maybe)
2015-09-28T08:19:01Z yvm: I don't like it.
2015-09-28T08:20:38Z jackdaniel: uhm, (if I would be picky I'd say that it's strictly #sbcl not #lisp question but I would be a hypocrite in such case since I often talk about ecl here)
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2015-09-28T08:23:06Z yvm: It's ok to be picky if's it helpful.
2015-09-28T08:24:03Z yvm: s/if's it/if it's/
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2015-09-28T08:27:10Z jackdaniel: yvm: to be honest I've tried to be sarcastic (I'm sorry for that) – I'm a big proponent of writing portable programs (suprise suprise ;) especially when portability libraries exist
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2015-09-28T08:30:06Z Ctoolu: which dialect of Lisp would protect me better from my code producing memory leaks?
2015-09-28T08:30:47Z resttime: Any that have a garbage collector?
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2015-09-28T08:32:21Z ggole: Finding leaks is probably more of a tooling issue
2015-09-28T08:32:35Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: garbage collector is a special mechanizm which manages memory for you so there is no possibility of memory leak - when you loose the last reference object is automatically removed from the memory
2015-09-28T08:34:25Z Ctoolu: what if there are zombie objects?
2015-09-28T08:34:36Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: define zombie object
2015-09-28T08:35:00Z jackdaniel: when you have GC you don't have to manage memory
2015-09-28T08:35:08Z resttime: You can do profiling to find out what is making the garbage collector running all the time to collect the garbage if that's what you're asking
2015-09-28T08:35:08Z Ctoolu: err, zombie references
2015-09-28T08:35:35Z resttime: errr, in common lisp that is
2015-09-28T08:35:57Z jackdaniel: Ctoolu: if you have a reference to the object then it's "alive" - I'm not sure what is zombie reference though
2015-09-28T08:36:28Z jackdaniel: if you're asking if CL will shield you from software bugs - then no
2015-09-28T08:36:31Z ggole: Unintentionally alive objects are very possible
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2015-09-28T08:42:01Z Ctoolu: I guess I was hoping the syntax somehow preempted stack overflows, or leaks.
2015-09-28T08:42:41Z ggole: Nope.
2015-09-28T08:43:25Z ggole: A mechanism to bound computation depth would probably be pretty heavy
2015-09-28T08:44:15Z ggole: It's possible that some of the embedded tooling has ways to enforce such restrictions, but I don't know of any general purpose languages which do that sort of thing.
2015-09-28T08:44:50Z loke: Ctoolu: GC's prevent a _certain_class_of_ leaks.
2015-09-28T08:47:25Z splittist: Ctoolu: if you keep a reference to something it won't be garbage collected, so the 'zombies' aren't dangerous. If you don't want that thing any more, just don't refer to it. Weak references can help, there. As for stack overflow, that's a logic thing, by and large.
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2015-09-28T09:17:18Z Cymew: I'm really mystified about how my whole dev env seems to have disintegrated, and hw ql and asdf together now seem to break on everything.
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2015-09-28T09:29:56Z Shinmera: Cymew: I'm guessing you already tried using a different implementation and/or upgrading your main one?
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2015-09-28T09:34:05Z p_l: Ctoolu: what you need to deal with in GC'ed language isn't forgetting to free(), but dangling "live" references - meaning that something somewhere is still using that piece of memory
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2015-09-28T09:37:21Z Cymew: Shinmera: Yeah, tried to change almost everything around. Now I did a clean install from scratch in a new $HOME and then it worked.
2015-09-28T09:37:40Z Cymew: Dirty env, but where in the heavens do I find the culprit??
2015-09-28T09:37:47Z Shinmera: Cymew: Unfortunately linux is rather cluttered in where it's possible to have configurations, so I'm guessing something there was going on.
2015-09-28T09:38:19Z Shinmera: Checking in ~/.cache and ~/.config I guess would be my first try.
2015-09-28T09:38:38Z Shinmera: (as in, rename them, try launching)
2015-09-28T09:39:20Z Ctoolu: p_l: i see.
2015-09-28T09:39:50Z Cymew: Shinmera: Did that, no cookie. :(
2015-09-28T09:39:57Z Shinmera: Cymew: :/
2015-09-28T09:40:14Z jackdaniel: Cymew: maybe quicklisp/cache ?
2015-09-28T09:40:17Z Shinmera: Well, I guess just cleaning out files one by one would be the tedious but more sure-fire way.
2015-09-28T09:40:21Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That's in ~/.cache
2015-09-28T09:40:35Z Cymew: I strongly suspect ASDF v3 do something too smart for it's own good.
2015-09-28T09:40:47Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: nope, quicklisp/cache is separate
2015-09-28T09:40:52Z Cymew: I mean, who really understand that stuff?
2015-09-28T09:41:06Z Shinmera: Cymew: Fare, I would hope.
2015-09-28T09:41:37Z Cymew: Yeah, but I'm scared to think he is the only one.
2015-09-28T09:42:08Z Shinmera: I understand some parts of ASDF, but I've given up on trying to understand it all. I instead want to build a new system.
2015-09-28T09:42:08Z Cymew: ASDF is smarter than me...
2015-09-28T09:42:43Z Cymew: I'm not surprised
2015-09-28T09:42:58Z Cymew: Shinmera: You're a cl component/library machine!
2015-09-28T09:43:19Z White_Flame: Ctoolu: memory leaks are incredibly rare in my experience.  Stack explosion is the same as any other languages with functions & recursion
2015-09-28T09:43:19Z Shinmera: I wish I had more time!
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2015-09-28T09:45:06Z Ctoolu: White_Flame: good
2015-09-28T09:46:17Z White_Flame: when you're building things like caches & histories, it's easy to see what parts of your system can be conceptually unbounded
2015-09-28T09:46:59Z Cymew: Why am I doing this? Now I'm trying to bang my head against the wall that is clack again. I must be insane.
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2015-09-28T10:13:51Z Ctoolu: re. Gabriel's "worse-is-better" hypothesis: he says it's undecidable.  Maybe the acceptance of an interface depends on the biases of the users, not on the interface properties themselves.  In that case, advertising might be the force that coaxes users' acceptance.
2015-09-28T10:17:40Z jackdaniel: my personal opinion on this topic builds on the history of mathematics - spiecially on theoretic and practice mathematicians divergence - practicians are a forehead and they build "methods" until some point where without good theory foundaments they can't build any further
2015-09-28T10:17:51Z jackdaniel: and theoreticians move slowly building foundaments
2015-09-28T10:18:40Z jackdaniel: so even if on the first glance they are separate and hostile to each other in essence they live in symbiosis
2015-09-28T10:19:05Z jackdaniel: same (imo) is with good software and "worse" software :p
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2015-09-28T10:44:52Z Ctoolu: jackdaniel: yes, what you say makes sense.
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2015-09-28T10:51:46Z attila_lendvai: does anyone know about an ffi interface to bluez and/or mosquitto?
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2015-09-28T11:32:11Z ralt: Shinmera: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2015-September/004903.html
2015-09-28T11:34:52Z Shinmera: ralt: Ah, so it was another bug.
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2015-09-28T11:35:07Z Shinmera: Thanks! I thought I was going crazy there for a minute.
2015-09-28T11:35:23Z ralt: :-)
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2015-09-28T11:35:36Z ralt: I'll have to find out how to get the latest asdf version now
2015-09-28T11:35:41Z ralt: I think mine is shipped with quicklisp
2015-09-28T11:35:48Z Shinmera: I doubt it
2015-09-28T11:35:58Z Shinmera: Upgrading your SBCL/whatnot should do it
2015-09-28T11:36:05Z ralt: I'm at sbcl 1.2.15
2015-09-28T11:36:09Z ralt: hard to get better atm
2015-09-28T11:36:15Z Shinmera: Hum.
2015-09-28T11:36:34Z Shinmera: Well, then download the file from the ASDF homepage and load it in your .sbclrc (hopefully compiled as a FASL) before loading QL.
2015-09-28T11:36:56Z ralt: I will
2015-09-28T11:37:05Z ralt: at work right now though, so it'll be a few hours before I do that
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2015-09-28T14:40:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cymew: I found that ningle was fairly easy to get started with, without having to do too much messing around in clack's internals.
2015-09-28T14:41:06Z Cymew: fiddlerwoaroof: Have you done any webapp development before?
2015-09-28T14:41:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cymew: In Lisp? No
2015-09-28T14:41:33Z Cymew: But in Rails or similar?
2015-09-28T14:41:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've done a bit with various python frameworks (Flask,Twisted)
2015-09-28T14:41:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Ruby's sinatra
2015-09-28T14:42:10Z Cymew: I think that makes a lot of difference
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2015-09-28T14:45:22Z zacts: hi lispers
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2015-09-28T14:48:48Z Cymew: fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. what the heck is a route supposed to contain? What should it return? How many arguments? It uses the Sinatra-like system. If you have not used Sinatra that is all but useless. If I have to go and learn Sinatra, I might as well ditch this underdocumented Ningle stuff.
2015-09-28T14:49:14Z Cymew: CL libraries still have some way to go.
2015-09-28T14:50:00Z Cymew: ...unless we count on all future web developers to come from the Ruby/Python camps to CL as if by magic.
2015-09-28T14:50:08Z resttime: Cymew: setting a ningle route makes it so a URL serves what you want
2015-09-28T14:50:23Z resttime: it could be a string, path to file, lambda, and etc.
2015-09-28T14:50:34Z mood: Cymew: Perhaps you'd find Lucerne better to start with: http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/
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2015-09-28T14:51:25Z Cymew: I frankly found all options less than satisfactory, even though lucerne was best. But, I've started my own instead, in true lisp fashion...
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2015-09-28T14:52:53Z mood: I... am kind of the same way. Except I haven't started something, instead wrapping some small things around Lucerne. It was good enough for what I needed
2015-09-28T14:52:53Z splittist: Cymew: don't forget to write the documentation first.
2015-09-28T14:53:24Z Cymew: Not a bad idea...
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2015-09-28T14:55:12Z splittist: I have never used any Python, Ruby or Java web framework in earnest. I volunteer to be guinea pig for your docs (:
2015-09-28T14:55:24Z resttime: I don't really understand the difficulty one might have with the current options, perhaps I could explain how they work?
2015-09-28T14:56:16Z Cymew: resttime: If I manage to get my dev env to work again I could try to write up a few cases I would like described.
2015-09-28T14:56:23Z resttime: Albeit kind of underdocumented, they feel quite complete
2015-09-28T14:56:49Z resttime: Cymew: please do, i'd like to know as well
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2015-09-28T14:57:42Z Cymew: My first hangup is actually that so few people write docstrings, but that is just one part.
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2015-09-28T14:58:01Z resttime: Err as in there might be cases that I did not consider because I lack knowledge of them
2015-09-28T14:58:02Z sjl: example: the Lucerne docs are here http://eudoxia.me/lucerne/docs/overview.html -- the word "route" appears over and over in the code samples, but never appears in the prose at all to explain what a "route" is
2015-09-28T14:58:13Z sjl: unless my ctrl-f in firefox is broken
2015-09-28T14:58:29Z sjl: @route app "/profile/:username"
2015-09-28T14:58:29Z eudoxia: lol my bad i wrote from the POV of someone who already knows web dev
2015-09-28T14:58:40Z sjl: what can username contain?  will it match slashes?
2015-09-28T14:58:50Z sjl: can I use a regex here somehow if I want to match e.g. an integer?
2015-09-28T14:59:20Z sjl: what happens if two routes match the same url?
2015-09-28T14:59:22Z sjl: etc etc
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2015-09-28T15:01:09Z sjl: coming from python and clojure I can *guess* what I think will probably happen, but it would be good if I didn't have to
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2015-09-28T15:01:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Do any of the web frameworks for other languages go into that kind of detail though?
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2015-09-28T15:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Generally they say "do this" and leave you to figure out all the edge cases
2015-09-28T15:02:00Z sjl: http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/0.10/quickstart/#routing
2015-09-28T15:02:02Z sjl: yes
2015-09-28T15:02:44Z flip214: perhaps, if you find the *right* documentation ... in python/bottle, python/django, and ruby on rails I didn't find that (yet)
2015-09-28T15:02:54Z resttime: well most lisp libraries is less documentation but more like examples in general I guess
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2015-09-28T15:03:26Z resttime: https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle has an example of what that keyword :username would be used for
2015-09-28T15:03:37Z mood: One simple thing I don't like is the focus of every Clack-based framework to define routes near their handlers, while the order in which they're added really matters. (Granted, This is mostly an issue with the examples)
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2015-09-28T15:04:04Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Radiance is very strict about which URL is chosen.
2015-09-28T15:04:17Z sjl: resttime: so to learn this Lucerne framework I should read the docs of... another competing framework?
2015-09-28T15:04:34Z eudoxia: sjl: no, learn Flak
2015-09-28T15:04:35Z eudoxia: Flask*
2015-09-28T15:04:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: mood: you could always just define all the functions and then setf the routes in ningle
2015-09-28T15:04:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: sjl: I'd just experiment to see what works :)
2015-09-28T15:05:21Z sjl: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't trust myself to be creative enough to figure everything out about a library just by poking at it
2015-09-28T15:05:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: You don't need to figure out everything
2015-09-28T15:05:43Z resttime: You just need to figure out what works
2015-09-28T15:05:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: just how to get your current task to work.
2015-09-28T15:06:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least that's how I've always learned these things)
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2015-09-28T15:06:41Z mood: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, that's why I put the (Granted, ...) in there. Though I believe Lucerne doesn't actually export the macro used by its @route syntax.
2015-09-28T15:06:55Z sjl: I mean, I've done web dev stuff long enough that I can probably bang my head against code long enough to figure out basically how it works.
2015-09-28T15:07:22Z sjl: But it would be nice if the authors of libraries, who already know how it works, could document them to help save some of the headbanging.
2015-09-28T15:08:06Z Shinmera: sjl: It'll be in the Radiance spec once I get to it.
2015-09-28T15:08:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: is radiance ready for use?
2015-09-28T15:08:56Z resttime_: sjl: Agreed, documentation is always nice
2015-09-28T15:09:05Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: I would not advocate working with it due to the lack of a spec, but it runs in production and I've written a bunch of applications for it.
2015-09-28T15:09:26Z Shinmera: If you want to dive in anyway -- you've been warned.
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2015-09-28T15:13:21Z resttime: sjl: though #lisp is also around for help others can also bang their head with you sometimes :)
2015-09-28T15:13:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, back to PHP
2015-09-28T15:13:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: :P
2015-09-28T15:14:19Z Cymew: Worth repeating that some people here are angel like in their patience. :)
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2015-09-28T15:16:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cymew: I spent a lot of time working with Twisted in python.  If you want to know what an undocumented project looks like . . .
2015-09-28T15:16:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of their documentation is either trivial or wrong
2015-09-28T15:16:48Z Cymew: Sounds like you are one of those patient people. ;)
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2015-09-28T15:18:36Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: well, php *does* have a lot of documentation
2015-09-28T15:18:52Z ralt: (although some areas, namely reflection, are lacking)
2015-09-28T15:18:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: it usually covers everything except what you want, thought
2015-09-28T15:19:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: There have been like half a dozen things in symfony2 where the documentation covers everything except what I want to know
2015-09-28T15:19:48Z ralt: ah, I meant php itself, not any framework/lib
2015-09-28T15:19:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah
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2015-09-28T15:32:27Z fortitude: the other day I noticed something odd: according to TIME, writing a 100k-character string to a STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM conses almost 10x that many bytes
2015-09-28T15:32:34Z fortitude: does anybody know why that might be?
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2015-09-28T15:38:08Z phf: fortitude: that's a very implementaton dependent question. on cmucl a single write-string of 100k string says 149,240 bytes
2015-09-28T15:38:48Z fortitude: phf: I checked SBCL and CCL and both were about a 1mb, so I thought maybe it was a common thing
2015-09-28T15:39:03Z fortitude: I looked at sbcl's implementation a bit, and they use a chain of buffers
2015-09-28T15:39:14Z Shinmera: They're also using UTF-32 internally
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2015-09-28T15:39:33Z fortitude: ah, that would probably do it
2015-09-28T15:39:43Z Shinmera: CMUCL uses UTF-16, if I remember correctly.
2015-09-28T15:40:16Z phf: ah, to confuse the issue i'm using a non-unicode cmucl
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2015-09-28T15:40:41Z Shinmera: That would explain why your value was so low.
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2015-09-28T15:42:08Z fortitude: I did notice that if you skip retrieving the string, it comes to about 500k bytes, which is pretty close to what you'd expect (though I wonder where the other 100k comes from)
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2015-09-28T15:46:18Z attila_lendvai: fortitude: binging *print-pretty* to nil may also affect it radically
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2015-09-28T15:48:38Z fortitude: attila_lendvai: doesn't seem to have any effect, but the resulting string isn't being printed, so that might be why
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2015-09-28T16:22:39Z hydan is wondering if it is worth it to start a big GUI project using CommonQT now that it is frozen.
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2015-09-28T16:23:09Z hydan has no idea how hard it will be to migrate to QT 5 based stuff once it will be done. Or when it will be done
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2015-09-28T16:27:10Z fortitude: hydan: I can't speak for stassats, but qt5 uses a lot of new C++ features that make it even harder to bind than it was before
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2015-09-28T16:27:31Z fortitude: it's possible to make some amount of progress with c2ffi, but it's still a ton of work
2015-09-28T16:27:47Z fortitude: might be easier to make bindings for something small like the QT Quick parts, though
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2015-09-28T16:27:53Z fortitude: *smaller
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2015-09-28T16:30:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: If only there were a Lisp project designed to abstract from the various GUI toolkits.
2015-09-28T16:32:30Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: what would be the point of choosing one then
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2015-09-28T16:33:07Z oGMo: also tough since since a lot of the gui design stuff is done with the respective tools
2015-09-28T16:33:38Z rme: fiddlerwoaroof: I think that's a fool's errand.  IMO, it's not possible to get a really good native GUI experience from a cross-platform toolkit.
2015-09-28T16:33:58Z Shinmera: The point of having an abstraction layer that combines implementations is if you want to write libraries that work everywhere.
2015-09-28T16:34:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That applies to Qt as much as to CLIM
2015-09-28T16:34:03Z oGMo: if you start rewriting that you might as well just write a lisp gui, because you're making all the decisions necessary anyway
2015-09-28T16:34:10Z Shinmera: When you write an application you want to pick something that's good and fix it.
2015-09-28T16:34:21Z Shinmera: Writing applications that are portable across implementations is just a waste of time.
2015-09-28T16:34:30Z oGMo: yes
2015-09-28T16:34:51Z oGMo: well, maybe not CL implementations, but platforms at least heh
2015-09-28T16:34:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point is that it would be nice to not have to worry which non-Lisp library is not currently in vogue
2015-09-28T16:35:24Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: And my point is that they're different enough that an abstraction layer would probably suck hard everywhere instead of being at least good somewhere.
2015-09-28T16:35:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Qt is not particularly good as it is, because it generally looks out of place on everything except KDE
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2015-09-28T16:35:32Z oGMo: fiddlerwoaroof: it's 1000x more work than just having the frontend abstraction in your app that should be there anyway
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2015-09-28T16:35:58Z oGMo: i.e., if you need ot port to OSX or gtk4 or whatever, and that's really hard, you did something wrong
2015-09-28T16:36:57Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Qt apps look plenty fine on my desktop
2015-09-28T16:37:12Z oGMo: qt apps look like windows in windows, don't they? i don't know about osx
2015-09-28T16:37:15Z Shinmera: And the LAF is /really/ ///really/// not what makes or breaks a toolkit.
2015-09-28T16:37:42Z oGMo: i have issues with Qt, but it's a perfectly usable option
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2015-09-28T16:37:52Z Shinmera: 1+ oGMo
2015-09-28T16:37:57Z oGMo: Shinmera: LAF?
2015-09-28T16:38:06Z Shinmera: Look And Feel. As in, the theme.
2015-09-28T16:38:11Z oGMo: oh, ah
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2015-09-28T16:40:25Z jlarocco: IMO Qt apps look fine on Linux and can look fine on OSX and Windows
2015-09-28T16:40:42Z jlarocco: it's extra work to make them fit in on OSX and Windows, but easier than writing three front ends
2015-09-28T16:41:12Z rme: There are people who really care about the details of LAF, and they notice when things don't feel "right".
2015-09-28T16:41:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Part of the problem, though, is that Qt is just this gigantic elephant of a library
2015-09-28T16:41:54Z oGMo: the other options are no less
2015-09-28T16:42:16Z jlarocco: and there are people using multiple systems who will complain that your app looks completely different on all platforms
2015-09-28T16:42:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, I wish there were something smaller that just did widgets without having an opinion about networking, etc.
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2015-09-28T16:43:08Z oGMo: fiddlerwoaroof: there is, but it sucks
2015-09-28T16:43:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: oGMo: what are you talking about?
2015-09-28T16:43:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: wxWidgets?
2015-09-28T16:43:45Z oGMo: fiddlerwoaroof: the web
2015-09-28T16:44:18Z rme: jlarocco: I suppose so.  There are people who go to France and complain that everyone speaks French.
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2015-09-28T16:45:49Z djh: Tragically, I went around France a few years ago and couldn't understand a word of what anyone was saying. Until one day I heard a conversation in French that I *could* follow! I was really pleased until I worked out they were Canadian tourists
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2015-09-28T16:47:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: oGMo: the problems with the web are largely historical, though
2015-09-28T16:48:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's kinda like trying to produce an interactive application in LaTeX
2015-09-28T16:48:12Z oGMo: fiddlerwoaroof: that makes them no less problems today
2015-09-28T16:48:39Z jlarocco: not sure I agree with that
2015-09-28T16:49:01Z rme: On the topic of web applications, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/07/web20_for_developers/?page=2 always made me laugh.
2015-09-28T16:49:11Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: I can see it now, a LaTeX package for writing "choose your own adventure" books.
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2015-09-28T16:49:55Z phf: rme: one could probably make a multi backend equivalent of mcl's widgets and have a very native looking result. window, button, label, list that sort of stuff
2015-09-28T16:50:21Z rme: phf: I've thoiught about that a lot.
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2015-09-28T16:51:50Z rme: But once you get past the basics you mentioned, then you're confronted with things like menus:  on the Mac, there's a menu bar.  On other systems, the menus are attached to windows.  And things diverge from there.
2015-09-28T16:52:20Z nyef: On Linux, the menus are either in a bar or attached to the windows, depending on which GTk theme you're using.
2015-09-28T16:52:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: there actually are LaTeX packages that let you play videos and such in your pdfs
2015-09-28T16:52:30Z rme: That's not to say that a simple toolkit wouldn't be valuable: it surely would.  But you'd be limited to a subset of the platform's UI capabilities.
2015-09-28T16:52:47Z nyef: fiddlerwoaroof: Neat, in a "how do I get it to do that once it's printed?" kind of way.
2015-09-28T16:53:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: rme: with the menus, though, you'd just have an (add-menu :xyz) (add-menu-item :xyz :abc) or something
2015-09-28T16:53:28Z resttime: Hmmm, a CLIM implementation that targets the web
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2015-09-28T16:53:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Menus are fairly consistent in the way they work
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2015-09-28T16:53:43Z phf: rme: come to think of it even the pixel perfect layout breaks down, since default widget sizes are subtly different, and will look "wrong" if not manually tweaked
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2015-09-28T16:55:49Z phf: resttime: i think there's some code in mcclim to do that
2015-09-28T16:57:23Z rme: I will say that using Cocoa directly is possible, but it's pretty hard. Dealing with memory mamangement is a huge pain.  There's a constant tension between wanting to use lisp data structures and having to copy data back and forth from foreign NSArrays and the like.
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2015-09-28T16:57:55Z rme: There must be a better way.
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2015-09-28T16:58:35Z rme: I wish i knew what it was.
2015-09-28T16:58:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: LispOS :)
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2015-09-28T16:59:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only semi-decent tool for producing GUI applications I've ever used was Delphi
2015-09-28T16:59:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and I was quite young then, so it might be worse than I remember)
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2015-09-28T17:02:24Z rme: What I am saying is influenced by my experience working on the Opusmodus UI.  That may not generalize, of course.
2015-09-28T17:03:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: What does Opusmodus use?
2015-09-28T17:03:23Z rme: It uses Cocoa more or less directly from Clozure CL.
2015-09-28T17:04:22Z phf: rme: yeah, i was wondering if maybe there's a opusmodus framework, but your comments seem to indicate that it's essentially the same approach that's in the rest of cocoa-ide
2015-09-28T17:05:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: rme: is it written in a way that would allow a mac gui library to be separated out?
2015-09-28T17:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof should really learn Cocoa
2015-09-28T17:07:25Z rme: phf: It certainly has a lot more stuff than the IDE.  But it uses the same techiques.  It's not like the UI is implemented in Objective-C in an external framework, if that was what you meant.
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2015-09-28T17:08:48Z hydan: strip almost everything from emacs and you will have *simple* cross platform toolkit, but it is in not common lisp.
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2015-09-28T17:09:48Z rme: fiddlerwoaroof: In the process, I learned some things about what would be good to factor out into a sort of UI library.  But as currently constituted, it's not structured that way.
2015-09-28T17:10:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2002-08/msg00040.html
2015-09-28T17:11:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: hydan: ^
2015-09-28T17:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: "Loading Emacs Lisp into CLISP was a weekend exercise"
2015-09-28T17:11:26Z phf: rme: no i meant more robust overall approach, or "what would be good to factor out"
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2015-09-28T17:12:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any materials about using current cocoa from lisp?
2015-09-28T17:13:20Z phf: fiddlerwoaroof: read the relevant clozure cl bits, it's pretty obvious what's going on
2015-09-28T17:14:05Z rme: fiddlerwoaroof: Not a ton.  You can look at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/Cocoa if you're at all interested.  But the real challenge isn't using Cocoa from lisp.  It's learning Cocoa itself.
2015-09-28T17:14:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've noticed that Cocoa isn't the friendliest gui toolkit
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2015-09-28T17:16:29Z rme: It's not a question of friendiness, I don't think. It's not that bad.  It's just huge.  The book by Hillegass is the best way I know of to get started.
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2015-09-28T17:17:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wow, the Paperback is like 1/2 the kindle price on amazon
2015-09-28T17:17:36Z rme: The other thing is that all of Apple's tooling expects you to be using Objective-C (or now Swift, I guess).  That tooling doesn't work so well when you're using some other programming language.
2015-09-28T17:18:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it feasible to get by without a nib (or whatever the equivalent is these days)?
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2015-09-28T17:18:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: The biggest barrier to entry for me is the interface builder :)
2015-09-28T17:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I don't understand it, but I always feel like I have to fight it
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2015-09-28T17:22:01Z rme: It's possible, but then you end up having to do extra work.  (That's the tooling situation I was talking about).  IB is fine, but as of Xcode 4 or so, it's only really works if your code is in written in Objective-C.  Older, stand-alone, versions were friendlier because they would let you enter class names, etc., manually. Now, it insists on being able to parse your Obj-C headers.
2015-09-28T17:22:28Z rme: Anyway, I'm probably annoying the channel with all this.
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2015-09-28T17:31:08Z fiddlerwoaroof wants a gui toolkit with a Qt and a curses backend
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2015-09-28T17:58:42Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: earlier you said you wanted "simple, with widgets"; I can say that ltk is actually quite good at that
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2015-09-28T17:59:01Z fortitude: if you need something fancy (canvas, opengl, fancy-pants native animations) it's not such a great choice
2015-09-28T17:59:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: fortitude: are there good lisp bindings?
2015-09-28T17:59:21Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: ltk is a lisp binding for the tk toolkit
2015-09-28T17:59:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah
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2015-09-28T18:00:04Z fortitude: I often wish other frameworks had widget interfaces that were as nice to use as tk's (lookin' at you, gtk...)
2015-09-28T18:00:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: fortitude: do you know if it can be made to look less like a tk app?
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2015-09-28T18:01:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I really do remember liking the tk interface from Tkinter in python
2015-09-28T18:01:37Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know offhand, but tk does have a certain amount of themeing support these days
2015-09-28T18:01:43Z fortitude: last I checked on windows it looked pretty normal
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2015-09-28T18:02:33Z fortitude: jasom: if you're around, have you had any experience themeing ltk apps?
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2015-09-28T18:37:51Z porky11: i can't connect to tor hidden services using torify on sbcl ( (usocket:socket-connect "*.onion" port))
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2015-09-28T18:39:31Z ralt: Shinmera: ping
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2015-09-28T18:39:38Z Shinmera: gnip
2015-09-28T18:40:04Z ralt: Shinmera: where does qt-lib-generator:install-system download the files?
2015-09-28T18:40:21Z Shinmera: It downloads stuff into the ASDF cache
2015-09-28T18:40:23Z ralt: I let it run for the day, didn't end
2015-09-28T18:40:29Z ralt: so I'm guessing something's wrong
2015-09-28T18:40:39Z Shinmera: If you C-c, what's the stack trace?
2015-09-28T18:41:06Z ralt: ah, indeed
2015-09-28T18:41:29Z Shinmera: There should be plenty restarts to try again and stuff.
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2015-09-28T18:41:46Z ralt: (directory #p"/usr/lib/**/libQtCore.so" :resolve-symlinks t)
2015-09-28T18:41:56Z Shinmera: hm.
2015-09-28T18:42:04Z ralt: and then >200 frames
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2015-09-28T18:42:20Z Shinmera: Can you paste the trace somewhere?
2015-09-28T18:42:24Z Shinmera: I need to look at that.
2015-09-28T18:42:44Z ralt: sure
2015-09-28T18:43:02Z ralt: http://pastebin.com/TLbBPFcJ
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2015-09-28T18:43:34Z ralt: Shinmera: frame 253 is the one I mentioned
2015-09-28T18:44:01Z phf: jeez some people, ask question, leave 5 minutes later
2015-09-28T18:44:29Z Shinmera: ralt: I'm a bit puzzled as to why that search would take so long
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2015-09-28T18:44:44Z Shinmera: It seems more like it's doing it over and over for some reason
2015-09-28T18:44:54Z Shinmera: Let me try to reproduce.
2015-09-28T18:45:36Z ralt: Shinmera: it seems it doesn't like this string: http://pastebin.com/TZ4rXhS4
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2015-09-28T18:46:11Z ralt: Shinmera: hold on, it seems that's not it
2015-09-28T18:46:20Z ralt: I'll just wait a while
2015-09-28T18:46:29Z Shinmera: It looks like you got a recursive symlink
2015-09-28T18:46:47Z Shinmera: I don't know how else to explain "/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release/build/Release"
2015-09-28T18:47:00Z ralt: duh, right
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2015-09-28T18:47:21Z ralt: it moved on though, so that must not be it
2015-09-28T18:47:29Z Shinmera: Either way, if it should install stuff from the web it shouldn't scan for Qt anyway.
2015-09-28T18:48:39Z ralt: Shinmera: where is asdf cache?
2015-09-28T18:49:00Z Shinmera: ~/.cache/common-lisp/../
2015-09-28T18:49:56Z ralt: does it store the downloads in a special place?
2015-09-28T18:50:13Z Shinmera: It stores them under the same folder as the qt-libs FASLs
2015-09-28T18:50:23Z Shinmera: in a subfolder respective for the lib being installed.
2015-09-28T18:50:26Z Fare: asdf never downloads anything
2015-09-28T18:50:34Z Shinmera: Qt-libs does.
2015-09-28T18:50:34Z Fare: you must be confusing with quicklisp
2015-09-28T18:50:37Z Shinmera: No.
2015-09-28T18:50:44Z ralt: Shinmera: no folder in there
2015-09-28T18:50:53Z Shinmera: ralt: yeah because it never got to the download part
2015-09-28T18:50:56Z ralt: hi Fare :-)
2015-09-28T18:50:59Z Fare: hi
2015-09-28T18:51:00Z ralt: Shinmera: ah
2015-09-28T18:51:08Z Shinmera: It's scanning for the lib on your local computer first -- it shouldn't.
2015-09-28T18:51:28Z ralt: Fare: thanks for the email yesterday (I'm the one who had the bug about program-op building in ~/.cache)
2015-09-28T18:51:45Z Fare: does it check a crypto signature, or does it let the MITM install its malware?
2015-09-28T18:51:58Z ralt: it checks a checksum
2015-09-28T18:52:04Z Fare: ralt: sorry about the bug in asdf
2015-09-28T18:52:10Z Shinmera: Fare: it does checksumming and downloads over HTTPS
2015-09-28T18:52:20Z Fare: not using quotes around asdf:program-op, it should work
2015-09-28T18:52:26Z ralt: oh
2015-09-28T18:52:52Z Fare: Shinmera: does it check that the CA Certificate was published in the blockchain at least 30 days ago?
2015-09-28T18:53:10Z Shinmera: It does whatever drakma does to download HTTPS stuff.
2015-09-28T18:53:20Z Fare: and/or uprading to the latest asdf on the master branch :-/
2015-09-28T18:53:59Z Fare: Shinmera: does drakma check certificates?
2015-09-28T18:54:04Z ralt: I'll avoid that :)
2015-09-28T18:54:05Z Shinmera: Fare: :shrug:
2015-09-28T18:54:06Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2015-09-28T18:54:30Z ralt: Fare++
2015-09-28T18:54:37Z ralt: works without quotes
2015-09-28T18:54:57Z ralt: well, no karma for you.
2015-09-28T18:55:12Z ralt: but the thought is going that way
2015-09-28T18:55:22Z ralt: Shinmera: do you need help to debug?
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2015-09-28T18:55:38Z ralt: i.e. where does it check if it should scan and not download?
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2015-09-28T18:55:43Z ralt: s/i.e./e.g./
2015-09-28T18:55:43Z Shinmera: Nah.
2015-09-28T18:55:58Z Shinmera: I'll look at it tomorrow, I'm a bit too tired at the moment.
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2015-09-28T18:57:10Z ralt: Shinmera: sure, np
2015-09-28T18:57:14Z ralt: thanks
2015-09-28T18:57:25Z Shinmera: Sorry that it didn't work right away!
2015-09-28T18:58:04Z ralt: it's not fun if it works right away
2015-09-28T18:58:09Z Shinmera: Yes it is
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2015-09-28T18:58:29Z Shinmera: That's why I like quicklisp at least
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2015-09-28T19:01:43Z ralt: Shinmera: quicklisp is essential, not fun
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2015-09-28T19:09:23Z Shinmera: ralt: Actually, you can try this: Open the qt4.lisp file (you can find the dir with (ql:where-is-system :qt-libs))
2015-09-28T19:09:37Z Shinmera: And exchange this definition http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/C6#
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2015-09-28T19:25:12Z Fare: it was interesting seeing the issues the Racketeers had.
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2015-09-28T19:25:46Z Fare: they too are discussing how to secure downloads, etc. And how to fix bugs on Windows.
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2015-09-28T19:26:50Z Fare: facebook down several times last week. Hiring PHP developers?
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2015-09-28T20:03:04Z logand: is that expected that "git clone https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git" asks for username and password?  is there some other official clone url which works without that?
2015-09-28T20:04:19Z fe[nl]ix: logand: #common-lisp.net
2015-09-28T20:06:18Z logand: fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2015-09-28T20:16:17Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, do you still want an asdf replacement ?
2015-09-28T20:17:00Z fe[nl]ix: I do, yes
2015-09-28T20:17:30Z fe[nl]ix: and FWIW, I'd rather start with Bazel straight away
2015-09-28T20:17:48Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera and I discussed this over dinner a few weeks ago
2015-09-28T20:18:03Z Shinmera: Haven't had time to look into Bazel yet
2015-09-28T20:18:33Z fe[nl]ix: installing it is a bit complicated, and I'm not using Ubuntu, much less the LTS
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2015-09-28T20:36:20Z Fare: hopefully cracauer will soon push the required SBCL patches upstream, and then we can opensource the bazel lisp support.
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2015-09-28T20:44:25Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: I'm coming to Boston in a few weeks, could you come by to have a chat about that ?
2015-09-28T20:46:05Z logand: fe[nl]ix: maybe you could try installing bazel via nix:-)
2015-09-28T20:46:15Z fe[nl]ix: logand: not interested
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2015-09-28T20:48:11Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: what's the timeframe? i was thinking of coming down on the 16th for a dinner
2015-09-28T20:48:20Z fe[nl]ix: ooh
2015-09-28T20:49:13Z fe[nl]ix: I think I can make it for that day
2015-09-28T20:50:02Z Xach: Ok
2015-09-28T20:50:21Z dim: mmm, an asdf replacement is forming?
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2015-09-28T20:50:35Z fe[nl]ix: maybe, but you won't like it :D
2015-09-28T20:50:46Z dim: why not?
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2015-09-28T20:52:07Z fe[nl]ix: because Bazel - see bazel.io - which is the build system that we use at Google, is a fabulously well done piece of technology
2015-09-28T20:52:25Z fe[nl]ix: but it's a build server written in Java
2015-09-28T20:52:26Z dim: sarcasm?
2015-09-28T20:52:29Z nyef: Did I hear Boston meetup on the 16th? (-:
2015-09-28T20:52:37Z Xach: nyef: was thinking about it
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2015-09-28T20:52:56Z fe[nl]ix: and getting lispers to depend on a big Java thing sound nigh impossible
2015-09-28T20:53:15Z dim: java? sounds like kidding
2015-09-28T20:53:15Z fe[nl]ix: OTOH, rewriting in in CL just to please everyone is a task of many man-years
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2015-09-28T20:53:58Z Xach: oops, october 15
2015-09-28T20:54:07Z Xach: thursday is better for me than friday
2015-09-28T20:54:28Z fe[nl]ix: ok
2015-09-28T20:54:39Z snv: Why do Clojure, Scheme and CL communities hate each other so much?
2015-09-28T20:55:01Z dim: they do?
2015-09-28T20:55:45Z nyef: Okay, blocked out the afternoon and evening of the 15th from my work calendar.
2015-09-28T20:56:37Z nyef: I can open it up again if need be, but it's good to have unavailability scheduled well in advance, the way things are going at work. (-:
2015-09-28T20:56:48Z snv: dim, there is certainly some kind of passively aggressive antagonism going on.
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2015-09-28T20:57:40Z snv: i.e. Clojure is being hated for some nonsense reasons, like macros being non-pure and different from other lisps
2015-09-28T20:58:15Z fe[nl]ix: snv: I wouldn't call it "hate", but it's different in many ways that I dislike
2015-09-28T20:58:26Z fe[nl]ix: and I see nothing good about it
2015-09-28T20:58:37Z fe[nl]ix: so I'm happy to ignore what happens there
2015-09-28T20:59:27Z snv: fe[nl]ix, anyway, the antagonism is stupid. Especially because CL can be made to implement most Clojure features.
2015-09-28T20:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: I see nothing useful in those features
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2015-09-28T21:07:19Z dim: snv: just hack away a clojure lib in CL then, as fe[nl]ix I don't see any problem
2015-09-28T21:07:37Z dim: what I've seen is people getting angry at confused questions where askers mix one for the other
2015-09-28T21:07:45Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2015-09-28T21:07:54Z dim: well maybe not angry, but annoyed
2015-09-28T21:08:47Z mood: I have certainly gotten annoyed at people actively promoting Clojure as "Lisp, but modern"
2015-09-28T21:09:42Z Shinmera: I don't know enough about Clojure to get mad about it.
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2015-09-28T21:10:25Z Xach: The clojure people I know are smart, happy, and having fun making interesting things. That does not bother me. They don't log on to comp.lang.lisp and spam it with complaints about how awful CL is.
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2015-09-28T21:11:12Z mood: Not mad, but I know enough about Clojure to know that it's very, very different from CL.
2015-09-28T21:13:37Z dim: there's cl21 for a "list, but modern", and it's a lib and a Quicklisp away
2015-09-28T21:13:57Z Shinmera: Whether that counts as modern is debatable.
2015-09-28T21:14:02Z dim: exactly ;-)
2015-09-28T21:14:06Z dim: it's meant to be tho
2015-09-28T21:14:17Z dim: and I guess they accept contribs
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2015-09-28T21:16:16Z dwchandler: I get suspicious when I see "modern" because that's supposed to mean something good but doesn't tell you much.
2015-09-28T21:16:37Z dwchandler: Just make the points you want to make and leave out "modern"
2015-09-28T21:16:59Z nyef: "modern": adj., broken in new ways that nobody has figured out how to work around yet.
2015-09-28T21:17:08Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2015-09-28T21:17:17Z fe[nl]ix: dim: e.g. in a Bazel world, the build system will statically link C libraries into the output image
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2015-09-28T21:18:08Z fe[nl]ix: which just eliminates tons of delivery hacks that I made for CFFI, and others in their own scripts
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2015-09-28T21:19:06Z Shinmera: I would be very interested in that too.
2015-09-28T21:19:16Z Shinmera: Qt deployment as it is right now is passable, but not grand
2015-09-28T21:19:24Z jackdaniel: ouch, too much log. I suppose I won't read it ;) good night (:
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2015-09-28T21:20:31Z fe[nl]ix: yes, you just add your library as dependency in the BUILD file, and you can count on cffi:defcfun finding the right symbols
2015-09-28T21:21:02Z Shinmera: Hmm. I don't know how well that works with the way CommonQt works yet.
2015-09-28T21:21:16Z foom: You don't *need* to use something fancy like bazel to get that feature. It'd be pretty easy to implement with a makefile as well.
2015-09-28T21:21:31Z Shinmera: foom: I'm aware.
2015-09-28T21:21:56Z Shinmera: I'm interested in Bazel to learn about build systems. I'm interested in static linking of libs for deployment.
2015-09-28T21:22:04Z Shinmera: The two aren't necessarily linked.
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2015-09-28T21:27:09Z Fare: or in ASDF
2015-09-28T21:27:41Z Fare: linking the sbcl runtime requires patches to sbcl
2015-09-28T21:28:31Z Fare: snv: so far as I can tell, the Clojure, Scheme and CL communities like each other and push each other to do better.
2015-09-28T21:29:00Z Fare: I admit in many ways I have Clojure or Racket envy --- though in other ways, not at all.
2015-09-28T21:30:10Z fe[nl]ix: foom: you don't need but it is very convenient to have it done for you and not copy & paste Makefile fragments from one project to another
2015-09-28T21:30:12Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, give me the dates
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2015-09-28T21:31:02Z foom: Fare: not really, it's a 4 line patch to the sbcl runtime makefile to add a new libsbcl.a target.
2015-09-28T21:31:03Z Fare: Shinmera: ASDF is much simpler to grok than Bazel, that's for sure
2015-09-28T21:31:09Z Fare: it does much less, too.
2015-09-28T21:31:18Z Fare: foom: I added it locally
2015-09-28T21:31:28Z dim: fe[nl]ix: static link C libs. I'm in.
2015-09-28T21:31:34Z phf: foom: you don't really have to decide what's needed or not needed, google engineers have already decided it for you
2015-09-28T21:31:51Z fe[nl]ix: I'll try to be there for the Boston Lisp meeting, so I'll probably arrive on the evening of Wednesday the 14th
2015-09-28T21:31:59Z Fare: additional steps are required to link a runtime executable that can find its own symbols and doesn't crash when trying to load an image
2015-09-28T21:32:00Z foom: phf: I am a google engineer, so you can include me in that. :)
2015-09-28T21:32:21Z phf: foom: man, can't spit, without.. :)
2015-09-28T21:32:24Z Shinmera: Fare: Sure. But if I want to attempt to make something that suits me better than ASDF I should definitely look at other things that seem to do things I want to do.
2015-09-28T21:32:28Z rme: ha
2015-09-28T21:32:31Z Fare modified CFFI to do the linking, but is missing some step to get it to work.
2015-09-28T21:33:10Z foom: Fare: no, it's just -Wl,--export-dynamic
2015-09-28T21:33:24Z foom: on the final link.
2015-09-28T21:33:25Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, Xach summoned a Lisp dinner on the 15th. If you're there too, I might try to go to Boston...
2015-09-28T21:34:06Z Fare: foom: I use them, but my runtime crashes at startup
2015-09-28T21:34:29Z foom: Then you forgot the sb-dynamic-core feature
2015-09-28T21:34:44Z Fare: maybe
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2015-09-28T21:34:55Z Fare: where do I add that?
2015-09-28T21:35:05Z fe[nl]ix: it would be so nice if certain core features weren't optional
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2015-09-28T21:35:37Z foom: Add a file called "customize-target-features.lisp" in sbcl src
2015-09-28T21:35:38Z dim: foom: do you have a write-up somewhere about how to build a fully static CL image from SBCL and some C .so dependencies (e.g. ssl)?
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2015-09-28T21:36:09Z foom: put (lambda (features) (pushnew :sb-dynamic-core features)) in it
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2015-09-28T21:36:28Z ralt: Fare: ping
2015-09-28T21:36:34Z fe[nl]ix: foom: I know about that, I meant, if they were always on
2015-09-28T21:36:42Z foom: I was responding to fare.
2015-09-28T21:36:43Z Fare: ralt: pong
2015-09-28T21:36:49Z ralt: Fare: actually, I'll send a mail to the list
2015-09-28T21:36:58Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2015-09-28T21:37:03Z foom: dynamic-core should probably just be always on
2015-09-28T21:37:08Z ralt: asking about compression program-op, and reporting a bug
2015-09-28T21:37:28Z Fare: ERROR: Both customize-target-features.lisp, and feature-options
2015-09-28T21:37:34Z foom: dim: no, I never wrote about it anywhere except in currently internal-to-google source code that implements it.
2015-09-28T21:37:37Z foom: sorry. ;p
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2015-09-28T21:37:46Z ralt: bug being that asdf hangs when the binary already exists (again, program-op)
2015-09-28T21:38:06Z Fare: what are these feature-options, and where did I specify them?
2015-09-28T21:38:12Z dim: foom: please consider a blog post or something!
2015-09-28T21:38:34Z dim: anyway, gn guys
2015-09-28T21:38:55Z Fare: ralt: yeah, it will save-lisp-and-die if the file doesn't exist, but not save and not die if it does.
2015-09-28T21:39:02Z foom: Fare: oh, make.sh has a fancy new way to specify that.
2015-09-28T21:39:13Z Fare: ideally, ASDF 4 would build in a subprocess, with a lock, etc.
2015-09-28T21:39:19Z foom: Fare: --with=sb-dynamic-core I guess?
2015-09-28T21:39:47Z ralt: Fare: is it an already-reported bug? Should I still report it?
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2015-09-28T21:40:46Z Fare adds --with sb-dynamic-core
2015-09-28T21:40:55Z Fare: ralt: report it
2015-09-28T21:41:11Z Fare: it's known behavior, but none dared report it as a "bug"
2015-09-28T21:41:25Z ralt: well, asdf hanging is a bug, so I'm going to report it :)
2015-09-28T21:41:28Z foom: oh, --with-sb-dynamic-core rather
2015-09-28T21:41:34Z Fare: hanging?
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2015-09-28T21:43:12Z ralt: Fare: yeah, it doesn't do anything
2015-09-28T21:44:12Z foom: I still want to finish up my patch to make the sbcl core be an elf object that gets linked in to the executable normally.
2015-09-28T21:44:26Z Fare rebuilds sbcl this way
2015-09-28T21:44:30Z foom: And then get rid of the dlsym calls
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2015-09-28T21:44:38Z fe[nl]ix: foom: that would be awesome
2015-09-28T21:44:41Z foom: (since normal linker relocations will work at that point)
2015-09-28T21:45:04Z Fare: foom: is it currently getting linked abnormally?
2015-09-28T21:45:12Z fe[nl]ix: foom: will you be around in two weeks ?
2015-09-28T21:45:34Z foom: I started on that, but then switched projects from QPX to C++ compiler hacking. :)
2015-09-28T21:45:38Z Fare rebuilds sbcl
2015-09-28T21:45:49Z Fare: foom: are you still on the QPX team?
2015-09-28T21:45:55Z foom: Fare: no
2015-09-28T21:45:58Z Fare: oh
2015-09-28T21:46:14Z Fare: dougk also left.
2015-09-28T21:46:17Z Fare: interesting.
2015-09-28T21:46:23Z foom: fe[nl]ix: yes.
2015-09-28T21:46:28Z ralt: hm. I needed --quit.
2015-09-28T21:46:49Z ralt: apparently, this isn't needed when there is no binary
2015-09-28T21:46:52Z foom: Fare: Yes, we actually left at different times to different teams, but now are working together on llvm/clang.
2015-09-28T21:46:59Z fe[nl]ix: foom: cool
2015-09-28T21:47:15Z fe[nl]ix: I'm coming over to see if there's QPX work for me to do
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2015-09-28T21:47:40Z Fare: should I file an sbcl bug with a patch to add this libsbcl.a support, or should I just wait for cracauer to push whatever Google has?
2015-09-28T21:47:47Z foom: Fare: just push it yourself
2015-09-28T21:47:53Z foom: or, you don't have commit rights?
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2015-09-28T21:47:57Z Fare: foom: me no sbcl committer
2015-09-28T21:48:31Z Fare: also, what I added for Windows is woefully incomplete in this patch.
2015-09-28T21:48:31Z foom: ah ok. it's 4 lines, just virtually stand over someone who is until they commit it
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2015-09-28T21:48:57Z Fare: my version is 25 lines, because it includes the libsbcl.a in the install
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2015-09-28T21:49:08Z foom: Ah, good idea. :)
2015-09-28T21:49:18Z Fare: and vaguely tries to do something on Windows
2015-09-28T21:49:49Z Fare no have Windows
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2015-09-28T21:50:31Z foom: Me neither...although I probably ought to get one since I keep breaking MSVC builds of llvm, since it's such a crappy C++ compiler.
2015-09-28T21:50:47Z foom: MSVC that is, not clang :)
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2015-09-28T21:53:14Z rme: I keep feeling like I should give Windows a real chance.  At best, I've treated it like a red-headed stepchild.
2015-09-28T21:54:00Z Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1500628
2015-09-28T21:54:33Z foom: you don't need the exported-symbols bit.
2015-09-28T21:54:37Z Fare: rme: if/when I get this sbcl linkkit working, it would be nice if you could help me have the same thing for ccl
2015-09-28T21:54:58Z Fare: I know it's also possible for cmucl and clisp, but I don't care to implement support for them myself.
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2015-09-28T21:55:19Z Fare: foom: I don't?
2015-09-28T21:55:25Z foom: Nope
2015-09-28T21:56:03Z Fare: I admit I cargo-culted the bazel support
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2015-09-28T21:56:14Z Fare: what does it do?
2015-09-28T21:56:52Z foom: Basically leftover cruft. It dumps all the symbols that might need to be dynamically exported.
2015-09-28T21:57:12Z foom: For the dlsym calls in the base sbcl code
2015-09-28T21:57:27Z foom: But, the bazel support actually dumps all the needed symbols from the lisp image you actually built.
2015-09-28T21:57:51Z foom: And, if you use -Wl,--export-dynamic (which is the easy way to go), you don't need either.
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2015-09-28T21:58:22Z Fare: so, I will still need the symbols the symbols from the image, but I don't need the symbols from the runtime itself thanks to -Wl --export-dynamic ?
2015-09-28T21:58:48Z Fare: do I need to do anything to ensure the code in the image won't be relocated by a GC?
2015-09-28T21:58:56Z foom: You don't actually *need* to avoid putting every symbol in the dynamic symbol table.
2015-09-28T21:59:40Z foom: -Wl,--export-dynamic tells the linker that every symbol in the binary should be exported.
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2015-09-28T21:59:50Z foom: Which should be fine.
2015-09-28T22:00:44Z foom: Oh, the other thing you'll want to make sure you do is -Wl,--whole-archive libsbcl.a -Wl,--no-whole-archive
2015-09-28T22:00:57Z Fare: OK, well, I'll keep hacking CFFI so it can link sbcl runtimes, and when that's done, I'll run it by you to see if it's satisfactory
2015-09-28T22:01:03Z foom: so that files don't get dropped from the runtime, just because "nobody" uses them.
2015-09-28T22:01:08Z oGMo: Fare: whoa wait you're working on making an sbcl shared object?
2015-09-28T22:01:08Z Fare: what's whole-archive ?
2015-09-28T22:01:14Z Fare: oh, ok
2015-09-28T22:01:16Z foom: use all .o files from the .a
2015-09-28T22:02:08Z Fare: I suppose that all only works on linux, not on mingw or bsd or mac
2015-09-28T22:02:22Z foom: afaik all unixish linkers do that
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2015-09-28T22:04:29Z Fare: with the same invocation? ok
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2015-09-28T22:04:58Z Fare:  oGMo nope, a static library
2015-09-28T22:05:15Z Fare: that you can extend via CFFI-grovel
2015-09-28T22:06:09Z oGMo: ah
2015-09-28T22:06:35Z logand: any idea what happened to git.b9.com?  is there a replacement?
2015-09-28T22:06:56Z oGMo: i suppose in theory thta may still work .. was wondering how hard a libsbcl.so / sbcl.dll would be to link to a game engine
2015-09-28T22:08:20Z Fare: oGMo: depends on what your C runtime does with signals, I suppose.
2015-09-28T22:08:38Z oGMo: Fare: ah true
2015-09-28T22:08:46Z Fare: what's wrong with main being a lisp function?
2015-09-28T22:08:57Z Fare: asdf:program-op and/or cl-launch handle that for you
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2015-09-28T22:10:14Z oGMo: it might be hackable (e.g., link to UE4), but my guess is it might be less work to call into SBCL than try building that as the .so
2015-09-28T22:10:20Z Fare: foom: so, create the image, extract image symbols, link the executable, then put it all together?
2015-09-28T22:10:32Z oGMo: obviously a lot of setup etc to SBCL would still need done, but
2015-09-28T22:10:41Z foom: Fare: no, skip step 2.
2015-09-28T22:10:51Z Fare: foom: ok
2015-09-28T22:11:06Z foom: Fare: I mean, maybe do it someday, but it's totally optional. make it work without, first.
2015-09-28T22:11:23Z Fare: then I might as well do: compile the systems, link the runtime, then have it do the image-and-executable dumping.
2015-09-28T22:11:41Z foom: Yes, that works too.
2015-09-28T22:11:42Z Fare: foom: is it useful for debugging?
2015-09-28T22:11:54Z foom: Fare: no, again, --export-dynamic exports ALL the symbols
2015-09-28T22:12:00Z foom: it's ONLY for exporting less than all.
2015-09-28T22:12:22Z Fare: I thought gdb or something wanted symbols from the image
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2015-09-28T22:13:33Z foom: oh, you're talking about the lisp function address dumping
2015-09-28T22:13:39Z Fare: yes
2015-09-28T22:13:52Z foom: I thought you were still talking about the foreign function symbols referenced from lisp
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2015-09-28T22:14:17Z Fare: oh
2015-09-28T22:14:50Z foom: The dumping of lisp function addresses is an attempt to make stack traces show lisp function names, but it turns out to only sort of work, due to the lisp core not being an elf object.
2015-09-28T22:15:20Z foom: And that's really a totally separate thing from your static linking project here.
2015-09-28T22:15:42Z Fare: ok
2015-09-28T22:15:50Z Fare: I'll skipthat for now
2015-09-28T22:16:53Z foom: so, yes, you can link runtime before you dump, and thus just depend on save-lisp-and-die :executable t
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2015-09-28T22:17:46Z foom: (although, that lets compile-time code too easily depend on C libraries, which IMO it never should)
2015-09-28T22:19:48Z logand: Xach: do you happen to know what is going on with kmr-git git.b9.com?  e.g. "git clone http://git.b9.com/cl-base64.git" can't resolve host
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2015-09-28T22:21:46Z mood: logand: I believe b9.com was sold. There's a replacement domain, but I'm not sure what it is
2015-09-28T22:22:53Z Xach: logand: it has been renamed
2015-09-28T22:23:09Z Xach: logand: to git.kpe.io
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2015-09-28T22:54:19Z resttime: Is there a simple way to "replicate" an unsigned char in C?
2015-09-28T22:54:37Z resttime: Right now I can only think of applying #mod
2015-09-28T22:55:11Z resttime: Err the behaviour that is from the "overflow"
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2015-09-28T23:00:14Z Bicyclidine: resttime: mod's usual. some compilers will simplify the instruction outputs if it's a power of two.
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2015-09-28T23:02:55Z oGMo: resttime: declare something (unsigned-byte 8), use that as the element-type, etc?
2015-09-28T23:03:20Z Bicyclidine: that won't do modular arithmetic, though
2015-09-28T23:03:45Z oGMo: yeah more or less depends on need
2015-09-28T23:03:53Z resttime: Alright thanks, I just got a bit curious after hearing a complaint from someone
2015-09-28T23:03:58Z resttime: The context is bitwise operations
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2015-09-28T23:04:51Z resttime: #'lognot and such
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2015-09-28T23:05:47Z Bicyclidine: bitwise operations shouldn't interact with modular arithmetic, really
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2015-09-28T23:19:08Z snv1: is it possible to a programmer work in US being illegal immigrant?
2015-09-28T23:19:15Z snv1: *to get a
2015-09-28T23:19:46Z White_Flame: as employment?  I seriously doubt it
2015-09-28T23:19:50Z snv1: I heard it require forging a lot of paperwork. Or you can just talk you way into employment?
2015-09-28T23:19:58Z White_Flame: if you try to do odd programming jobs off craigslist for cash?  probably
2015-09-28T23:20:19Z snv1: White_Flame, I mean normal enterprise programming, like C++
2015-09-28T23:20:23Z White_Flame: beyond that, I doubt anybody here is going to promote illegal means
2015-09-28T23:20:30Z rme: Let's talk about lisp.
2015-09-28T23:20:49Z snv1: White_Flame, unfortunately there is no legal means for me to get into US :-(
2015-09-28T23:21:24Z White_Flame: snv1: then that should be your answer.  It's not worth the risk you'd be trying to take
2015-09-28T23:21:41Z snv1: White_Flame, I want money, and money worth the risk
2015-09-28T23:21:57Z snv1: besides, there is zero programming jobs in russia
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2015-09-28T23:22:34Z jlarocco: wouldn't it be easier to go to europe?
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2015-09-28T23:22:46Z jlarocco: or try to get remote work?
2015-09-28T23:22:53Z snv1: jlarocco, europe requires knowing some useless language, like german
2015-09-28T23:23:06Z White_Flame: everywhere will require something of you
2015-09-28T23:23:07Z snv1: don't want waste time on that
2015-09-28T23:23:31Z snv1: and europe is a lot more closed to illegal immigrants
2015-09-28T23:23:34Z White_Flame: just from these attitudes expressed here, I wouldn't hire you btw :-P
2015-09-28T23:24:17Z snv1: White_Flame, do you need a good worker or some stupid formalities? If second, then I'm sorry for your business.
2015-09-28T23:24:29Z White_Flame: "I don't want to waste time learning things"
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2015-09-28T23:24:39Z White_Flame: "I'd rather do something illegal"
2015-09-28T23:24:40Z White_Flame: etc
2015-09-28T23:24:55Z snv1: White_Flame, I'm a programmer, not some natural language and cultural expert
2015-09-28T23:25:00Z Xach: If you would like to discuss it more, please do it via private messages.
2015-09-28T23:25:07Z White_Flame: yes, I'm done
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2015-09-29T00:43:00Z ajf-: Any ideas on cleaning up quicklisp systems? I was using SBCL + Quicklisp in my user directory to test things out while Opusmodus had a bug where it did not use the correct quicklisp path. Now it was fixed and I think I have everything mixed and I'd like to uninstall everything actually
2015-09-29T00:43:24Z ajf-: I saw somewhere that (ql:uninstall 'pkg) doesn't work very well.
2015-09-29T00:43:28Z ajf-: Just wanted to make sure. Any ideas?
2015-09-29T00:43:57Z XachX: Uninstall works fine.
2015-09-29T00:44:21Z ajf-: Ah, great.
2015-09-29T00:44:25Z XachX: You can also just delete the quick lisp directory and start over.
2015-09-29T00:44:46Z ajf-: ah really ? that sounds better
2015-09-29T00:44:55Z XachX: Sure
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2015-09-29T00:48:22Z ajf-: thanks
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2015-09-29T01:15:35Z ajf-: Any clues on this drakma install error (fails in usocket)? https://gist.github.com/ajf-/8229a803a4717d589d59 - Error: Foreign function not found: x86-darwin64::|gethostname|
2015-09-29T01:16:41Z ajf-: found a github issue that suggests it might be an incomplete CCL installation
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2015-09-29T01:19:51Z rme: ajf-: Yes, that means that ccl can't find the interface database that the #_ reader macro uses to find foriegn functions.  It may be the case that the interfaces aren't included with Opusmodus (I seem to recall that you're using it).
2015-09-29T01:20:06Z ajf-: yes I am
2015-09-29T01:20:22Z ajf-: although I'm reading in the clozure docs that you can set CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY
2015-09-29T01:20:31Z ajf-: maybe I can download it and then configure the missing bits manually ?
2015-09-29T01:20:52Z ajf-: because (probe-file "ccl:") shows "/Applications/". that doesn't seem right.
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2015-09-29T01:22:14Z rme: try doing (ccl::replace-base-translation "ccl:" path) where path corresponds to a ccl directory, e.g. "/usr/local/src/ccl/" or something. Mae sure it's a directory pathname.
2015-09-29T01:23:39Z ajf-: Thanks, will do. Installing CCL though first...
2015-09-29T01:24:30Z rme: http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2015-09-29T01:24:58Z ajf-: yes I just did brew install clozure-cl
2015-09-29T01:25:06Z rme: The sources might not exacly match what was used to build Opusmodus, but the interfaces in darwin-x86-headers64 will be the same.
2015-09-29T01:25:22Z ajf-: should I report this to the Opmo devs ?
2015-09-29T01:26:23Z rme: I would say so, if you feel up to it.  Perhaps the interfaces ought to be included for cases like the one you just ran into with usocket.
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2015-09-29T01:33:01Z psilisp: i came here recently and was told how to install a lisp interpreter in emacs, but i've lost the installation. could someone link me to the appropriate site again|?
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2015-09-29T01:35:56Z psilisp: i think i found it: https://phab.jasom.org/F10
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2015-09-29T02:01:25Z namra: greetings
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2015-09-29T02:03:14Z namra: anyone using vim+slimv and can explain how to use electric returns? the tutorial says pressing ")" at a line ending will move parans from below upwards, but what it does it inserts new parans at the line ending to balance the parans, and leaves the ones first inserted automatically there. that means there are unbalanced parans.
2015-09-29T02:03:38Z namra: ah and just pressing ")" will only select the corresponding parantheses
2015-09-29T02:03:47Z namra: ",)" does what i described
2015-09-29T02:08:50Z snv: Best way translating CL to JavaScript for client-side execution?
2015-09-29T02:09:03Z namra: ah now i understand how it works
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2015-09-29T02:10:15Z ajf-: Looks like it didn't work. It installed in /usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/, and I tried all the subdirectories down to /usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/1.10/libexec/darwin-x86-headers
2015-09-29T02:10:25Z ajf-: usocket keeps throwing the same error
2015-09-29T02:10:48Z rme: you want darwin-x86-headers64
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2015-09-29T02:12:55Z rme: If you have the ccl logical host set up correctly, darwin-x86-headers64 should be in the output of (directory "ccl:*.*")
2015-09-29T02:13:53Z ajf-: both (directory "ccl:*.*") and (probe-file "ccl:") look correct
2015-09-29T02:14:35Z ajf-: here's the output of my various attempts: https://gist.github.com/ajf-/327985889fc0055a3563
2015-09-29T02:15:22Z phf: ha
2015-09-29T02:15:27Z rme: the ccl logical host needs to refer to the parent of the darwin-x86-headers64 directory
2015-09-29T02:15:32Z phf: if only you made the same mistake twice
2015-09-29T02:16:18Z ajf-: sorry
2015-09-29T02:16:27Z ajf-: Ok then: (ccl::replace-base-translation "ccl:" "/usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/1.10/libexec/")
2015-09-29T02:16:43Z rme: possibly you need to do (use-interface-dir :libc)
2015-09-29T02:16:47Z ajf-: which is the parent of darwin-x86-headers64/
2015-09-29T02:17:15Z ajf-: Error: Undefined function use-interface-dir called with arguments (:libc)
2015-09-29T02:17:52Z rme: ccl:use-interface-dir, then
2015-09-29T02:18:04Z rme: Then try (#_getpid) and see if it works
2015-09-29T02:19:04Z ajf-: (ccl:use-interface-dir :libc) -> OK
2015-09-29T02:19:25Z ajf-: (#_getpid) -> Foreign function not found: x86-darwin64::|getpid|
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2015-09-29T02:20:44Z ajf-: Lost case ?
2015-09-29T02:21:01Z rme: You are in a situation where there are two non-"standard" things going on.  You are using Opusmodus, and you are using a brew-installed ccl.  Opusmodus I happen to know about.  The brew-installed ccl, not so much.  So I'm kind of just guessing a little bit here.
2015-09-29T02:22:16Z ajf-: Also the Opusmodus version is 1.11-RC1-r16608M  (Darwinx8664) and I'm with 1.10. Maybe I should svn co the same development version of ccl
2015-09-29T02:22:16Z rme: Why don't you try going back to an earlier break level.   Just type :a
2015-09-29T02:22:39Z ajf-: :a -> ("usocket")
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2015-09-29T02:24:08Z rme: I started up an Opusmodus, did (#_getpid), got error. Exited break loop with ^D. Did (ccl::replace-base-translation "ccl:" "/usr/local/src/ccl/").  (probe-file "ccl:") => #P"/usr/local/src/ccl/".  Did (#_getpid), which works.
2015-09-29T02:24:46Z ajf-: alright let me try and do the same from scratch
2015-09-29T02:24:54Z resttime: snv: If you don't know about it check out parenscript, I believe that's the general option
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2015-09-29T02:25:36Z ajf-: Alright (#_getpid) -> Lots of warnings
2015-09-29T02:26:20Z snv: resttime, it is a subset of CL. I.e. you cant run existing CL code using it.
2015-09-29T02:27:07Z rme: ajf-: OK.  I was wrong about getting an error.  I just got a warning from typing the first (#_getpid).
2015-09-29T02:27:58Z ajf-: your /usr/local/src/ccl/ directory has cocoa-ide, compiler, contrib, darwin-x86-headers, etc. right ?
2015-09-29T02:28:01Z ajf-: just to make sure
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2015-09-29T02:28:39Z resttime: snv: ah my bad then, i guess you mean like "compiling" CL to javascript
2015-09-29T02:28:47Z rme: Yeah, it's a standard checkout per ccl.clozure.com/download.html.  In particular, darwin-x86-headers64 is there.
2015-09-29T02:28:55Z phf: ajf-: from reading clozure-cl recipe, your selection of .../libexec/ appears to be correct
2015-09-29T02:29:02Z rme: Did brew install get you a 32-bit lisp or a 64-bit lisp?
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2015-09-29T02:29:39Z ajf-: It got me http://ccl.clozure.com/ftp/pub/release/1.10/ccl-1.10-darwinx86.tar.gz
2015-09-29T02:29:41Z ajf-: that might be it
2015-09-29T02:29:53Z snv: resttime: things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAssembly should make it possible
2015-09-29T02:30:22Z snv: maybe even inbrowser SBCL
2015-09-29T02:30:58Z rme: WebAssembly? That is just wrong.
2015-09-29T02:31:01Z rme: I don't get it.
2015-09-29T02:31:31Z ajf-: the ccl64 binary is present though
2015-09-29T02:31:32Z snv: rme: it makes sense, because browsers are the most widely available development environment
2015-09-29T02:32:23Z snv: so anyone can start CL without the fuzz of installing SBCL to linux
2015-09-29T02:32:26Z White_Flame: snv: list of options http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html
2015-09-29T02:33:04Z White_Flame: it's a few years old, though
2015-09-29T02:33:46Z snv: White_Flame, thank you. Worth checking.
2015-09-29T02:34:20Z White_Flame: SLip was the one on the list that most piqued my interest, as it does threading
2015-09-29T02:36:08Z ajf-: alright it's kinda late here and another CCL download will take a while so I'm signing off and will keep trying tomorrow. Thanks for the friendly help rme, phf
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2015-09-29T03:04:40Z drmeister: Hey lispers - a question about how to handle packages and bootstrapping.
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2015-09-29T03:06:15Z drmeister: I'm incorporating inlined functions into Clasp - there are functions for which inlining information is generated early in the startup process incorporating symbols in packages that  will be defined later in the startup process.
2015-09-29T03:06:39Z drmeister: The packages are CLEAVIR-AST and CLASP-CLEAVIR-AST
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2015-09-29T03:07:30Z drmeister: So I need to be able to intern these symbols early in the startup but the packages are not created at that point in the startup.
2015-09-29T03:07:49Z drmeister: So I want to move the creation of those packages to the beginning of the startup process.
2015-09-29T03:07:57Z drmeister: How much of the package do I need to define?
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2015-09-29T03:09:21Z drmeister: DEFPACKAGE says that if the DEFPACKAGE definition is in variance with an existing package then the consequences are implementation defined.
2015-09-29T03:09:50Z Bike: well, you don't have to use defpackage, you can just export shit with cl:export and so on, if you need to
2015-09-29T03:09:59Z drmeister: I guess I'll have to look and see what the ECL code does with DEFPACKAGE.
2015-09-29T03:11:23Z drmeister: Because the simplest option is right at the start of the startup I (MAKE-PACKAGE "CLEAVIR-AST")  and then later it does (DEFPACKAGE "CLEAVIR-AST" ...) and fills in the rest of the details - if it really fills in the rest of the details.
2015-09-29T03:12:32Z drmeister: Bike: I suppose I could expand the DEFPACKAGE macro used to define CLEAVIR-AST and carry out whatever operations that expands to at the beginning of the startup procedure.
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2015-09-29T07:04:57Z logand`: Xach: thank you, git.kpe.io seems to work
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2015-09-29T07:07:28Z aeth: What's the memory look like for a list? '(1 2 3 4 5) is just '(1 . (2 . (3 . (4 . (5 . nil))))) but does that mean that the pointers in the car/cdr are expensive or do some implementations optimize lists?
2015-09-29T07:07:51Z aeth: A lot of posts online seem to not like linked lists, but I'm wondering how applicable that is in an optimized Common Lisp, e.g. sbcl
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2015-09-29T07:09:29Z Shinmera: Lists don't exist. There's only CONSes.
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2015-09-29T07:09:58Z aeth: And what does this do internally in an implementation? (cons 0 (cdddr '(1 . (2 . (3 . (4 . (5 . nil))))))) ; (0 4 5)
2015-09-29T07:10:07Z Shinmera: In ye olde times there was a thing called 'CDR-coding' that tried to turn lists into arrays, but it's a huge pain to implement and just not worth it nowadays.
2015-09-29T07:10:33Z aeth: when I wrap that in (time) in SBCL it says "0 bytes consed" but there's a cons right there so I'm not quite sure what's going on. (Maybe #sbcl is more appropriate for this subpart of the question)
2015-09-29T07:11:42Z aeth: Shinmera: Ok, I think I have heard of that before in my reading, and I didn't know that it's not done anymore. So I guess use arrays for arrays.
2015-09-29T07:11:43Z PuercoPop: aeth: that consed means memory allocated btw
2015-09-29T07:12:40Z aeth: PuercoPop: Okay, thanks, I suspected there were two definitions at work but I wasn't quite sure.
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2015-09-29T07:13:06Z Shinmera: aeth: SBCL does compile-time inlining.
2015-09-29T07:13:28Z Shinmera: aeth: You are using constants there, so it can try to optimise that away, resulting in nothing being done at run-time, which is what TIME measures.
2015-09-29T07:13:31Z aeth: Shinmera: so does that mean that it's literally compiled as (0 4 5) when I type that?
2015-09-29T07:13:34Z aeth: ah
2015-09-29T07:13:41Z aeth: I was wondering why it was 0.000000
2015-09-29T07:13:51Z PuercoPop: aeth: are you asking if there are optimizations to avoid linear access times in lists? If so the answer is no.
2015-09-29T07:13:56Z Shinmera: Well allocating a single CONS is also very /very/ fast, so.
2015-09-29T07:14:08Z Shinmera: Try a loop that makes a list.
2015-09-29T07:14:13Z Shinmera: That'll give you some bytes consed alright.
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2015-09-29T07:19:28Z aeth: PuercoPop: Well I was more curious to know if lists are really implemented as cons cells or if that's just a simplification.
2015-09-29T07:21:37Z Shinmera: Well you could have looked at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_list.htm
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2015-09-29T07:29:57Z loke: aeth: The spec says nothing about the actual implementation.
2015-09-29T07:30:36Z loke: aeth: There have been lisps that implemented optimised lists. However, they turned out to be less performant than expected, and they complicate implementation
2015-09-29T07:30:48Z loke: I believe they were mostly for saving RAM ranther that CPU cycles.
2015-09-29T07:31:23Z aeth: loke: right, I was wondering how a list looks in the memory. I'm already aware that they're quite fast in iteration when timing them.
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2015-09-29T07:32:27Z aeth: how does (list 1 2 3 4 5) differ from e.g. a simple-vector of fixed (non-adjustable) size of element-type fixnum or something?
2015-09-29T07:34:05Z aeth: (make-array 5 :element-type 'fixnum :initial-contents #(1 2 3 4 5))
2015-09-29T07:34:06Z White_Flame: [1 ptr 2 ptr 3 ptr 4 ptr 5 nil]
2015-09-29T07:34:16Z White_Flame: vs [array-header 1 2 3 4 5]
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2015-09-29T07:34:23Z aeth: right, and the 2 and 3 and 4 a nd 5 and nil can be anywhere in memory?
2015-09-29T07:34:31Z aeth: s/a nd/and/
2015-09-29T07:34:49Z White_Flame: right, but initial allocation is likely consecutive, and the GC will likely move them together
2015-09-29T07:35:13Z White_Flame: (well, the 2nd "likely" there is less strong)
2015-09-29T07:35:28Z White_Flame: but as GCs work by object traversal, that's generally the order they'll see objects to move them
2015-09-29T07:35:42Z aeth: When the type's known and it's a numerical/performance thing, should I be using arrays even when random access via elt is not needed?
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2015-09-29T07:35:53Z Fare: back in NYC
2015-09-29T07:36:04Z Shinmera: aeth: benchmark!
2015-09-29T07:36:05Z White_Flame: aeth: profile it
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2015-09-29T07:36:15Z Fare: so, these static-image-op and static-program-op things are working on sbcl
2015-09-29T07:36:24Z Shinmera: Fare: sweet!
2015-09-29T07:36:34Z aeth: Well I guess one issue is I only really have the resources to benchmark it on a few CLs.
2015-09-29T07:36:39Z aeth: e.g. I'm not going to pay money for a proprietary Lisp
2015-09-29T07:36:40Z Fare: you "just" need to patch sbcl and cffi and to get the latestest asdf
2015-09-29T07:36:51Z White_Flame: aeth: the overhead is not large
2015-09-29T07:37:07Z Shinmera: Fare: I got other things on my plate right now, so I'll wait a bit with testing it.
2015-09-29T07:37:11Z White_Flame: arrays have to do more pointer math, lists have to do more pointer dereferencing
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2015-09-29T07:37:23Z Fare: Shinmera, no hurry about that.
2015-09-29T07:37:37Z White_Flame: bounds checking is also different, math on access, vs checking for nil on traversal
2015-09-29T07:37:57Z Fare: Hopefully, the sbcl and cffi patches are committed upstream soon. I set a pull request to cffi and opened a bug against sbcl
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2015-09-29T07:44:57Z aeth: Ok, so if it's just being iterated on (e.g. via map or reduce) a list probably won't matter, except maybe in RAM, and might even be slightly (but not significantly) faster when safety's not 0, i.e. no need to bounds check?
2015-09-29T07:45:25Z Fare: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/73
2015-09-29T07:45:28Z aeth: (And safety probably shouldn't go to 0)
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2015-09-29T07:46:33Z Shinmera: You still need to check for NIL if you iterate a list.
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2015-09-29T07:47:11Z aeth: Shinmera: right, what I mean is that (null (cdr l)) will always be run, but if it's (safety 0) I'm guessing the bounds checking math for arrays isn't
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2015-09-29T07:47:27Z Shinmera: Why wouldn't it be run?
2015-09-29T07:47:40Z aeth: I've gotten out of bounds before in arrays with (safety 0) in sbcl
2015-09-29T07:47:43Z aeth: I think.
2015-09-29T07:47:49Z aeth: Some kind of cryptic memory error, at least.
2015-09-29T07:47:57Z Shinmera: Even if you iterate an array in C you need to test that `i` or whatever is smaller than the array length.
2015-09-29T07:48:21Z aeth: oh, right, I am being stupid right now
2015-09-29T07:48:34Z aeth: I guess because it's almost 4 am. I forgot the context was built in iteration stuff like map
2015-09-29T07:48:57Z Shinmera: 4Am is not the best time for thinking in my experience :)
2015-09-29T07:49:29Z aeth: Although I guess if they're implemented using something like (aref foo i) the aref itself checks for bounds even if it's in an iteration of some sort that makes sure it's in bounds?
2015-09-29T07:49:55Z Shinmera: Yes. That's what SAFETY 0 can eliminate.
2015-09-29T07:50:18Z aeth: i.e. if you're going from 0 to 15 and calling aref, and aref normally checks for bounds so you can't do (aref #(1 2 3 4) 6) unless there's an %aref or something being used in some iterations, there's going to be a cost
2015-09-29T07:50:37Z aeth: especially I guess if it's something like DO instead of MAP and so the AREFs are being done in user code
2015-09-29T07:51:12Z Shinmera: As usual, a Sufficiently Smart Compiler™ will figure out the loop context and use the 'proper' aref variant.
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2015-09-29T07:51:35Z aeth: Do implementations not check for bounds when referencing an array sequentially in map, reduce, find-if, etc.?
2015-09-29T07:51:51Z aeth: And even within do?
2015-09-29T07:52:06Z White_Flame: the lenght is known up-front
2015-09-29T07:52:07Z aeth: I guess this could still have issues with e.g. concurrency if the array's being modified in another thread?
2015-09-29T07:52:16Z loke: Generally, a compacting GC will ensure that free memory is contigous. This means that a "malloc" is incredibly efficient. It's essentially just an ADD instruction
2015-09-29T07:52:19Z Shinmera: When iterating over vectors they usually have to regard the fill-pointer, which might change during the loop in a threaded scenario.
2015-09-29T07:52:37Z loke: This also means that (list 1 2 3 4) will result in the conses being stored in consequtive storage locations.
2015-09-29T07:52:59Z aeth: loke: so when people say don't use linked lists because they could lead to anywhere in memory, it's because they use terrible languages?
2015-09-29T07:53:14Z loke: aeth: Not really. There is definitely truth to the statement.
2015-09-29T07:53:47Z Shinmera: adjust-array may also modify the array itself, which might also have to be taken into account for iteration.
2015-09-29T07:54:26Z pjb: But they are still idiots, because instead of accepting a few off cells to be fetched outside of the cache line, now they have to copy their big arrays all the time.
2015-09-29T07:54:49Z Shinmera: But my asymptotic complexity!
2015-09-29T07:55:10Z aeth: Shinmera: right that's why I used make-array in my example, i.e. not an adjustable one (by default, at least, like in my example)
2015-09-29T07:55:40Z aeth: I wasn't aware of adjust-array but I have used vector-push-extend before quite a few times.
2015-09-29T07:56:13Z aeth: i.e. I wanted to make something that is NIL to adjustable-array-p
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2015-09-29T07:59:50Z aeth: Except (adjustable-array-p #(1 2 3 4 5)) is NIL too so that's irrelevant. That's why I like REPLs. I guess the only relevant part about my example was the element-type part
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2015-09-29T08:02:00Z Shinmera is once again miffed that there's no type separation for the various properties of an array
2015-09-29T08:03:13Z aeth: Are vectors better than lists when the data is mutable? And is map-into foo from foo recognized by most CLs and optimized so it's not copying foo (which could be large)?
2015-09-29T08:03:33Z White_Flame: there's no universal "better"
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2015-09-29T08:03:53Z White_Flame: however, arrays are a bit more idiomatic, as the single object "owns" all the fields
2015-09-29T08:04:18Z White_Flame: with separate cons cells, there might be tail-sharing going on where you'd be hesitant to mutate them
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2015-09-29T08:20:16Z aeth: Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that there's always a clear better choice, I'm just trying to build some heuristics for which sequence to use. Although I guess simple-strings are always simple-arrays of characters.
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2015-09-29T08:22:26Z aeth: So I guess at least for characters the choice is easy
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2015-09-29T08:23:44Z aeth: (make-array 2 :element-type 'character :initial-contents '(#\h #\i)) => "hi"
2015-09-29T08:24:46Z aeth: For some reason I always treated strings as their own sequence in my head. I guess there are really just lists and arrays unless I'm reading the HyperSpec wrong?
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2015-09-29T08:27:09Z aeth: Oh, I see why I always thought of them as special, that's because map 'vector will return something different than map 'string on characters.
2015-09-29T08:27:50Z Shinmera: aeth: initial-contents can be a sequence.
2015-09-29T08:27:59Z Shinmera: So "hi" works just as well as '(#\h #\i)
2015-09-29T08:28:20Z aeth: Shinmera: yes, but then it's not as clear that it's all really characters, not strings
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2015-09-29T08:28:32Z Shinmera: I don't know, seems plenty clear to me
2015-09-29T08:29:11Z aeth: I guess it's 4:30 am logic then, sorry
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2015-09-29T08:46:19Z aeth: hmmm... SBCL seems to give me warnings (but lets me do it) if I setf aref on "foo" but not for e.g. (map 'string (lambda (x) x) "foo") or (string "hello") so it treats "hello" as e.g. a #(...) literal. ecl and clisp don't complain
2015-09-29T08:47:31Z yvm: Could somebody tell me why it tooks so long: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155951
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2015-09-29T08:52:26Z yvm: It is similar result for native types.
2015-09-29T08:53:08Z yvm: Why setf'int 4294967296 times takes almost 3 seconds?
2015-09-29T08:53:24Z yvm: On AMD Athlon(tm) II X3 445 Processor.
2015-09-29T08:54:10Z yvm: SBCL 1.2.14.debian.
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2015-09-29T08:58:20Z yvm: Similar C code hanged, lol.
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2015-09-29T09:01:35Z yvm: Oh, it just took 11 seconds.
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2015-09-29T09:06:37Z p_l: well... you just wrote 32GBs to RAM, what did you expect when it's common for desktop CPUs to have max memory bandwidth (for *new* CPUs in *perfect* setup) of 25.6GB/s?
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2015-09-29T09:07:53Z p_l: the question is how much was only written to cache (would probably need a disassembly)
2015-09-29T09:07:59Z p_l: that's all assuming 64bit code
2015-09-29T09:08:44Z p_l: 32bit just halves the amount of bytes written
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2015-09-29T09:18:42Z yvm: Oh, yes, wrong power, lol.
2015-09-29T09:18:44Z yvm: Thanks.
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2015-09-29T09:28:55Z drl: Hi everybody.
2015-09-29T09:29:43Z varjag: .. lisp 1.5 had TEMPUS-FUGIT builtin which amounted to printing date time stamp
2015-09-29T09:29:49Z varjag: nice name
2015-09-29T09:30:03Z drl: What is the best library to use to read RSS feeds and convert them into HTML5 web pages?
2015-09-29T09:30:21Z p_l: yvm: also, you might get differing behaviour depending on how the actual write to memory is done (does it do an uncached write? etc.)
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2015-09-29T09:38:22Z snv: New trolling manual is out! "Some programming textbooks recommend that every function that is longer than a few lines should be split up into multiple functions. I disagree with this rule. Splitting up a function into multiple smaller functions only makes the program less efficient. Splitting up a function just because it is long does not make the program more clear unless the function is doing multiple logically distinct tasks. A critical innermost
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2015-09-29T09:41:56Z Shinmera: How's this related to lisp
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2015-09-29T09:42:05Z aeth: varjag: I understand Latin but I don't think using Latin is a good idea for function names. I immediately understood that without looking it up but not many people would.
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2015-09-29T09:42:48Z aeth: (EXIT, however, is perfectly acceptable Latin to use in a function name)
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2015-09-29T09:43:02Z snv: Shinmera, don't care about efficiency?
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2015-09-29T09:43:29Z Shinmera: I care about lisp.
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2015-09-29T09:43:48Z snv: Shinmera, lisp has no functions?
2015-09-29T09:43:52Z aeth: snv: inlining
2015-09-29T09:45:00Z aeth: Also generally Lispers as a culture like having managable code over that extra 0.000001 seconds in runtime.
2015-09-29T09:45:40Z Shinmera: Either way a "trolling manual" is hardly related to lisp code, so I advise you take that kind of thing somewhere else.
2015-09-29T09:45:42Z snv: aeth, "no http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_c.htm#conforming_implementation is required to perform inline expansion of user-defined functions,"
2015-09-29T09:46:58Z aeth: But in practice if you care about speed you'll use a highly optimizing implementation rather than trying to be smarter than a compiler.
2015-09-29T09:47:33Z snv: aeth, for many people CL is just a C/C++ with macros.
2015-09-29T09:47:40Z aeth: And if you don't care about speed, why do something just for speed
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2015-09-29T09:48:26Z snv: aeth, in practice you'll use unboxed values, inline assembly and VOPs
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2015-09-29T09:50:30Z ralt: or pinpoint your bottleneck function and add a few declares, disassemble it to find out what's wrong, etc.
2015-09-29T09:51:29Z aeth: Iirc, the cost (without inlining) is about 0.000001 seconds to 0.000002 seconds and my computer is very old by now. And sometimes it actually speeds it up on SBCL for some reason, perhaps because of some cleverness behind the scenes.
2015-09-29T09:51:41Z snv: SBCL is relatively efficient, because it doesn't reauire unboxing fixnums, given the declarations. But bignums are very inefficient.
2015-09-29T09:53:11Z aeth: heh, for some definition of very. It's probably mostly memory.
2015-09-29T09:53:43Z snv: aeth, that depends on what you're doing. When you algorithm is O(n^2), you'll hit the wall pretty fast. The C++ nice is because in many cases you can get away with bubble sort, instead of making the right thing.
2015-09-29T09:54:18Z aeth: Most of the speed ups *are* switching algorithms from e.g. O(n^2) to O(n)
2015-09-29T09:54:46Z snv: aeth, switching increases complexity by orders of magnitude.
2015-09-29T09:54:51Z aeth: Most of the micro-optimizations I've done have wasted my time.
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2015-09-29T09:56:14Z snv: aeth, unboxed values are micr-optimization, yet for inner loops they boost speed several times.
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2015-09-29T10:00:31Z aeth: Whatever. ralt has the right answer.
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2015-09-29T10:01:43Z aeth: Just optimize bottlenecks.
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2015-09-29T10:04:26Z snv: an assembly programmer once told me that his whole program is a "bottleneck"
2015-09-29T10:04:59Z schweers: aeth: Although I agree with you and ralt, I sometimes hear the claim that such a practice leads to uniformly slow software.  I don’t think that is true, but do you have a good refutation?
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2015-09-29T10:06:04Z aeth: schweers: Just measure things constantly, and you'll know where to care imo.
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2015-09-29T10:10:47Z aeth: snv: If you profile things though there are differences of orders of magnitude in places. Treating everything the same means wasting time on an x speed when you could be focusing on trying to reduce a 10x or 100x speed. "Bottleneck" just means "the thing that's slowest that can be improved right now". Optimizing is never-ending.
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2015-09-29T10:10:50Z snv: In many cases it makes sense to approach problem from the goal. For example, video games use A-star for pathfinding, which is very slow, non-incremental and leads to subtle problems, if not recalculated every cycle. But using a diffusion based algorithm makes pathfinding very fast and incremental.
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2015-09-29T10:15:53Z aeth: schweers`: I think the argument is that if you spend less time on micro-optimizations you can spend more time choosing a better architecture altogether, etc.
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2015-09-29T10:36:54Z Devon: I've been writing (ccl:defstatic •foo•) to share mutable state across threads but unicode • (bullet) annoys some hackers, should I tell them to get over it and join the 21st century or pick some ASCII alternative?
2015-09-29T10:37:49Z Cymew: It sounds like something that could make your life miserably if your code travels inbetween linuxland and windowsland.
2015-09-29T10:38:00Z Cymew: ...or appleland
2015-09-29T10:38:06Z snv: Devon, unicode symbols are missing from keyboard. That is why APL never got popular.
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2015-09-29T10:38:25Z schweers`: snv: not every keyboard
2015-09-29T10:38:57Z snv: schweers`, tablet keyboards?
2015-09-29T10:39:38Z schweers`: I’m checking if it’s in here: http://neo-layout.org/
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2015-09-29T10:40:15Z schweers`: hm, doesn’t seem so
2015-09-29T10:40:26Z schweers`: •
2015-09-29T10:40:30Z schweers`: ha, there it is :)
2015-09-29T10:41:04Z snv: schweers`, the site being in german speaks for itself.
2015-09-29T10:41:33Z schweers`: your point being?
2015-09-29T10:42:06Z snv: schweers`, ``Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.''
2015-09-29T10:42:35Z schweers`: um, the letter keys are „optimized“ for german, the rest is pretty international
2015-09-29T10:42:51Z schweers`: and yes, I agree that programs are for people
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2015-09-29T10:43:33Z schweers`: although I think that the keyboard layouts in widespread use today are bad, I would rather not use • in symbol names, as not everyone can enter them
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2015-09-29T10:44:25Z snv: the only thing i miss from the keyboard is the lambda symbol λ
2015-09-29T10:45:24Z smokeink: i have a really noobish but annoying problem... how does (asdf:find-system :parasol-ui) find the subcomponent located in the subfolder /ui/parasol-ui.asd ? i tried to make a copy /ui2/parasol-ui2.asd , changed the system name to parasol-ui2 but asdf won't find :parasol-ui2
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2015-09-29T10:45:50Z Devon: Apple's keyboards feature bullet on Alt-8 just as asterisk is on Shift-8.
2015-09-29T10:45:59Z snv: smokeink: (setf asdf:*central-registry* …)
2015-09-29T10:46:52Z smokeink: without setting *central-registry* it is able to find :parasoi-ui  .. but not :parasoi-ui2
2015-09-29T10:47:26Z Shinmera: smokeink: Why aren't you using Quicklisp's local-projects feature?
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2015-09-29T10:47:54Z smokeink: that's where parasol is located
2015-09-29T10:48:09Z Shinmera: Then you must do (ql:register-local-projects)
2015-09-29T10:48:09Z smokeink: in quicklisp/local-projects/
2015-09-29T10:48:27Z Shinmera: QL only searches one directory deep implicitly
2015-09-29T10:48:34Z Cymew: snv: Is that prioritized over the other methods ASDF v3 have?
2015-09-29T10:48:34Z smokeink: yes, that was it!
2015-09-29T10:48:35Z snv: CL needs a nice package GUI, like the one for C#/.NET
2015-09-29T10:48:41Z Cymew: ASDF v3 have multiple ways of finding your systems. You probably have to to read the manual to get to grips with all of those.
2015-09-29T10:49:13Z smokeink: i read the manual but i could not figure out
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2015-09-29T10:49:27Z Cymew: You're not alone!
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2015-09-29T10:50:19Z Cymew: cat .config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/00-asdf.conf -> (:tree "/home/FOO/src/")
2015-09-29T10:50:26Z Cymew: Almost always does what I want
2015-09-29T10:50:44Z Cymew: And sometimes, like this weekend, breaks horribly...
2015-09-29T10:52:08Z Devon: Quicklisp should look in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ before ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives/ but something is broken or cached or something and it won't find the local one even when I rename thi dir and asd file, any ideas?
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2015-09-29T10:52:49Z Shinmera: Devon: the same problem as with smokeink. The ASD in local-projects is further down than a simple directory
2015-09-29T10:52:59Z mood: Cymew: I always used (:tree (:home "src/"))
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2015-09-29T10:53:02Z Shinmera: Refresh Quicklisp's cache explicitly with ql:register-local-projects
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2015-09-29T10:53:20Z XachX: Maybe. There could be more happening.
2015-09-29T10:53:24Z mood: Though I've now removed that and explicitly symlink .asd files into ql/local-projects
2015-09-29T10:53:39Z Shinmera: XachX: There always could
2015-09-29T10:54:03Z Cymew: mood: Interesting, I had not gotten that the directory could be its own list.
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2015-09-29T10:54:56Z XachX: That's why I prefer "Can you try X and tell me what happens?" to "Y is the problem, fix it with X"
2015-09-29T10:55:10Z Shinmera: Point taken.
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2015-09-29T11:06:25Z yvm: I have a piece of code. When I run it with slime's REPL, it tooks less then second to execute (and about 3,003,548,166 processor cycles). But when I put the same code to function and call this function from the same slime REPL, it tooks 2.5 seconds and 7,554,677,126 processor cycles. How can that be?
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2015-09-29T11:08:49Z yvm: Oh, I guess I figured it out.
2015-09-29T11:09:14Z schweers`: yvm: what was the problem?  I was wondering how it could be the case
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2015-09-29T11:11:12Z yvm: time function must be before symbols declarations.
2015-09-29T11:11:43Z yvm: Surprisingly.
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2015-09-29T11:20:53Z Xach: Devon: did you find the solution?
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2015-09-29T11:24:57Z Xach: Devon: also: lisp dinner?
2015-09-29T11:25:39Z Devon: Xach: (ql:register-local-projects) was no help -- someone suggested a way to proceed with the unmodified system but I'm sure this will bite me again.
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2015-09-29T11:26:10Z Xach: Devon: what is the system name in question?
2015-09-29T11:26:21Z Xach: Devon: Are you up for troubleshooting right now?
2015-09-29T11:27:29Z Xach: actually, I only have 15 minutes, then have to walk the sprogs to school
2015-09-29T11:27:38Z Shinmera: Hmm. Is your ASD listed in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/system-index.txt?
2015-09-29T11:27:41Z Xach: but I am very curious about the scenario and its possible fixes
2015-09-29T11:28:06Z Shinmera: Xach: Quick Question about system-index.txt: It seems to be sorted by length of the pathname. Any particular reason for that?
2015-09-29T11:28:37Z Xach: Shinmera: the thinking is that if you have "alexandria/alexandria.asd" and "foo/thirdparty/alexandria.asd", the shorter one is preferable
2015-09-29T11:28:49Z Xach: sorry, "foo/thirdparty/alexandria/alexandria.asd"
2015-09-29T11:28:53Z Shinmera: Xach: Ah, I see.
2015-09-29T11:29:02Z Xach: it is not foolproof, but that is the thinking
2015-09-29T11:29:46Z Shinmera: Shouldn't it go by number of pathname-directory elements rather than length of truename then?
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2015-09-29T11:35:39Z emaczen: Has anyone used fiveam with parenscript?
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2015-09-29T11:59:54Z pillton: Bike PuercoPop: Here is how you do muffling of compiler warnings locally. http://paste.lisp.org/display/155960
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2015-09-29T12:00:59Z pillton: Bike PuercoPop: It could do with an unwind protect but I don't know how to do it across macros.
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2015-09-29T12:04:44Z Devon: Xach: Fixed a typo and now the local version loads after doing (ql:register-local-projects)
2015-09-29T12:05:33Z Devon: Xach: While troubleshooting I had renamed the dir and asd but not the project itself.
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2015-09-29T12:09:32Z XachX: Phew
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2015-09-29T12:20:19Z Devon: Earlier I heard mention of a lisp dinner?
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2015-09-29T12:28:02Z Xach: Devon: october 15 at india pavilion in central square
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2015-09-29T12:30:33Z ralt`: Xach: little bug in quicklisp... I ran (ql:update-all-dists), it failed because ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/some/folder didn't have the correct permission. Now it doesn't want to upgrade anymore because the dist version was already written
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2015-09-29T12:31:00Z Xach: ralt`: it is already upgraded. things will fetch on demand, though.
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2015-09-29T12:31:24Z Xach: ralt`: all it really needs is the small metadata files. the upgrade of existing installed software is intended for convenience but not necessary
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2015-09-29T12:31:33Z ralt`: ah, I see
2015-09-29T12:32:03Z Xach: see chapter 7 section 3 of the quicklisp user manual, "When an update is interrupted"
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2015-09-29T12:32:06Z ralt`: my bad then :-)
2015-09-29T12:32:14Z Xach: just kidding. there is no manual. :~(
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2015-09-29T12:32:46Z ralt`: ... and I was furiously looking for it on quicklisp.org :(
2015-09-29T12:33:04Z ralt`: yeah. Furiously.
2015-09-29T12:33:15Z Shinmera: Smash those keys.
2015-09-29T12:34:15Z Xach: the good news is i hope to be able to spend more time on quicklisp in the following year, including the manual
2015-09-29T12:34:28Z Xach: in the coming year
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2015-09-29T12:35:39Z ralt`: Xach: let's hope for it :)
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2015-09-29T12:49:58Z Cymew: No json library available is capable of producing json from xml, right? I need to parse it into some kind of other representation that can be json encoded, right?
2015-09-29T12:50:39Z Xach: I don't know, sorry, but that seems like common sense to me.
2015-09-29T12:51:10Z Cymew: I wouldn't want to miss some obvious functionality...
2015-09-29T12:51:11Z Shinmera: I was planning on writing a frontend to plump for json, but never got to it.
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2015-09-29T12:52:54Z Shinmera: Mostly because the mapping is not really obvious (XML doesn't really have arrays or numbers)
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2015-09-29T12:53:33Z Cymew: Yeah, there are some gotchas.
2015-09-29T12:54:07Z Shinmera: There's an SEXP frontend to plump that should make things somewhat easier at least.
2015-09-29T12:54:32Z Cymew: I am quickloading plump as we speak.
2015-09-29T12:54:40Z Shinmera: (or at least I think it could, I don't know as I never tried it)
2015-09-29T12:55:02Z Cymew: Maybe I'll be the first
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2015-09-29T12:55:43Z Shinmera: It'd probably be easier to write a direct translator though. See https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-sexp/blob/master/plump-sexp.lisp for an example.
2015-09-29T12:56:14Z Shinmera: And https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-tex/blob/master/plump-tex.lisp for a different one.
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2015-09-29T12:56:29Z Cymew: It would be nice if all the web decided to just use XML, or json, and not mess around with both.
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2015-09-29T12:57:04Z Xach: alas, history
2015-09-29T12:57:10Z Shinmera: A lot of things would be nice.
2015-09-29T12:57:16Z Cymew: Indeed.
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2015-09-29T13:08:53Z yvm: How do I tell sbcl that specified symbols values will no change and thust must be treated as constant fixnum? I put (declare (fixnum)) in main loop and wrapped each operation to (the fixnum), but this doesn't help much.
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2015-09-29T13:10:41Z nyef: yvm: There's DEFCONSTANT, but that's a toplevel thing.
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2015-09-29T13:12:08Z yvm: Values I want to be treated as fixnum are from aliens, so defconstant won't help.
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2015-09-29T13:13:11Z nyef: What are you actually trying to do?
2015-09-29T13:13:48Z nyef: You seem to be mixing up the concepts of constancy and type.
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2015-09-29T13:16:09Z yvm: When I bind symbold in (let ) with actual numbers, main loop is very fast. But I need these symbols represent values which I got from alien library.
2015-09-29T13:18:30Z yvm: As I understand, compiler handle them dynamically. Because performance is much lower then when I bind symbols with actual numbers.
2015-09-29T13:19:49Z nyef: I think that this is the point in our program where I ask to see actual code, in github, or paste.lisp.org, or something like that.
2015-09-29T13:20:18Z yvm: Moment.
2015-09-29T13:22:32Z yvm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155965
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2015-09-29T13:25:19Z yvm: (the ) in step-form is just for reassurance.
2015-09-29T13:25:51Z nyef: Liberally decorated with declarations and THE forms, I see.
2015-09-29T13:26:36Z emaczen: The inner macro nested macros should be evaluated first right?
2015-09-29T13:26:50Z emaczen: of nested*
2015-09-29T13:27:13Z nyef: I'm thinking that the compiler doesn't figure that H or W must be FIXNUMs, for starters.
2015-09-29T13:27:28Z yvm: Hmm.
2015-09-29T13:27:42Z nyef: But also, why are you using DO rather than DOTIMES ?
2015-09-29T13:28:14Z yvm: Hmmm.
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2015-09-29T13:28:42Z nyef: You also have a loop strength issue, with the repeated (* stride h) in the inner loop.
2015-09-29T13:29:21Z phf: emaczen: no the other way around
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2015-09-29T13:31:14Z phf: emaczen: the outer macro always has dibs on complete sexp, so there might not even be "inner macro" when the outer one is done
2015-09-29T13:31:43Z easye: Is there some sort of Gray Streams abstraction for an output stream that is an in memory buffer for a bunch of octets but allows me to "pull" a given buffer size of octets from the stream as I need them??  I am trying to use IRONCLAD to block cipher large (over 1Gib) octet streams, and I can't seem to find a Quicklisp library that helps here.
2015-09-29T13:31:48Z yvm: nyef, thank you very much.
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2015-09-29T13:32:23Z Xach: easye: i don't know the exact answer, sorry, but flexi-streams is the first thing i'd investigate if i had that problem
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2015-09-29T13:33:20Z easye: Xach: alright, I'll look at it.  I thought flexi-streams was more about encodings, but I'll look.
2015-09-29T13:34:08Z easye: TRIVIAL-BIT-STREAMS seems to be more in line with what I need, but I havenlt figure out how to initialize them as well as no examples, no tests.
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2015-09-29T13:34:57Z easye: Does CCL on ARM have threads?
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2015-09-29T13:35:25Z phf: easye: ironclad's octet-output-stream already allows you to do what you're asking for
2015-09-29T13:35:41Z easye: phf: But it seems to slurp the whole output.
2015-09-29T13:36:04Z easye: I don't seem to have a way to say: just grab the next 8192 bytes or some such.
2015-09-29T13:36:18Z ralt`: read-sequence?
2015-09-29T13:36:39Z phf: so something like get-output-stream-octets but with "size" parameter? and it will take only the first "size" of octets?
2015-09-29T13:36:55Z easye: phf: yeah.
2015-09-29T13:37:10Z nyef: yvm: Good luck.
2015-09-29T13:37:21Z easye: ralt`: Ok, lemme try messing around with READ-SEQUENCE.
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2015-09-29T13:40:32Z phf: easye: (defun get-some-stream-octets (stream size) (let ((buffer (ironclad::buffer stream)) (index (ironclad::index stream))) (setf (ironclad::index stream) (- index size)) (setf (ironclad::buffer stream) (subseq buffer size index)) (subseq buffer 0 size)))
2015-09-29T13:41:04Z emaczen: phf: In my outer macro, it was expecting a list, now I put a conditional to see if there is a list and if not expand the inner-macro which will produce the list -- is this alright? (It does give me exactly what I wanted).
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2015-09-29T13:43:35Z phf: easye: if you poke at relevant code, specifically get-output-stream-octets in octet-stream.lisp you'll see that it's not very hard to write own code to manipulate octet-output-stream
2015-09-29T13:43:52Z easye: phf: Yeah, IRONCLAD::BUFFER looks like the missing piece.  I overlooked it as it wasn't exported.
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2015-09-29T13:45:29Z easye: phf:  thanks!
2015-09-29T13:45:45Z phf: emaczen: i don't see why not
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2015-09-29T14:43:35Z rme: easye: ccl on ARM has threads just like all the other ccl ports.
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2015-09-29T14:44:57Z easye: rme: thanks.
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2015-09-29T14:52:05Z emaczen: How do you prevent symbols being wrapped with
2015-09-29T14:52:12Z emaczen: "|"
2015-09-29T14:52:23Z emaczen: My symbol name is "set-something"
2015-09-29T14:52:34Z dlowe: emaczen: uppercase your symbol
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2015-09-29T14:53:02Z emaczen: dlowe: Cool
2015-09-29T14:53:13Z dlowe: emaczen: symbols are case-sensitive, but the reader uppercases symbols before interning them, unless you use the |sym| notation
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2015-09-29T16:39:37Z attila_lendvai: ecl in gdb, and backtrace says "No frame." any ideas?
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2015-09-29T16:46:31Z lin: hi
2015-09-29T16:46:39Z lin: ls
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2015-09-29T16:48:07Z dlowe: bin/           etc/          mail/           pr0n/             src/
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2015-09-29T16:53:40Z Xach: Someone emailed me last night around 9pm and said "I have a lisp homework due tonight at midnight in washington dc, can you help, here is a picture of the assignment"
2015-09-29T16:53:49Z Xach: Any other lispers get the same
2015-09-29T16:53:50Z Xach: ?
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2015-09-29T16:55:10Z LiamH: You have unique spam.
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2015-09-29T16:55:36Z resttime: I'm curious, what's on the assignment?
2015-09-29T16:55:53Z Xach: very simple stuff, flattening a nested list and doing some arithmetic
2015-09-29T16:55:59Z LiamH: Washington DC... I'm curious who the assignment is for.
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2015-09-29T16:56:24Z Xach: the examples were handwritten one-line lisp expressions, so of course this person took a photo of it and emailed me (4.5MB)
2015-09-29T16:56:41Z dlowe: A+ for laziness
2015-09-29T16:57:13Z LiamH: Wait.. he/she did write out the expressions, not as lazy as sending the instructors assignment sheet.
2015-09-29T16:57:22Z LiamH: A-
2015-09-29T16:57:35Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
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2015-09-29T16:58:52Z dwchandler: Xach: if you did happen to respond, I hope you did it with a picture of your response
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2015-09-29T16:59:37Z Xach: I went to sleep too early to complete the assignment.
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2015-09-29T16:59:39Z Shinmera: Take a picture of the response, print it out, and then photograph it on a wooden table.
2015-09-29T17:03:16Z attila_lendvai: from Washington DC... why am I not surprised?
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2015-09-29T17:03:44Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: why are you not surprised?
2015-09-29T17:03:52Z attila_lendvai: s/?/.../
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2015-09-29T17:04:52Z LiamH: GWU or Catholic I guess, maybe AU.
2015-09-29T17:05:06Z shka: hello
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2015-09-29T17:08:40Z Xach: LiamH: WAU it seems
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2015-09-29T17:12:56Z LiamH: which is not in DC
2015-09-29T17:13:22Z LiamH: close enough though
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2015-09-29T17:19:44Z NeverDie: I'm debating at the moment whether to learn Haskell or Lisp. Could anyone help me sway either way?
2015-09-29T17:20:09Z Shinmera: Well this is a lisp channel, so it's not going to be an unbiased answer.
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2015-09-29T17:20:29Z dlowe: flip a coin
2015-09-29T17:20:38Z Shinmera: Though in the end, learning more is better, so I'd say both.
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2015-09-29T17:21:06Z NeverDie: Yeah but I want to focus on one.
2015-09-29T17:21:11Z NeverDie: Not both at the same time.
2015-09-29T17:21:33Z Shinmera: Then flip a coin as dlowe said. Why would it matter which one you pick first?
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2015-09-29T17:22:02Z dlowe: "convince me to learn X" isn't very motivational :)
2015-09-29T17:22:18Z NeverDie: I do want to learn both, I'm just debating which I should devote my time to first.
2015-09-29T17:22:56Z Shinmera: Again, why does it matter which one you pick first? Just flip a coin and go for it.
2015-09-29T17:23:23Z NeverDie: Well yeah since I only have a few months of free time to devote to one.
2015-09-29T17:23:28Z NeverDie: After that, not so much.
2015-09-29T17:24:03Z oGMo: NeverDie: don't learn lisp, otherwise you'll be unhappy with everything else
2015-09-29T17:24:11Z Shinmera: Ah. Well, not having any free time never stopped me before.
2015-09-29T17:24:13Z NeverDie: oGMo: How come?
2015-09-29T17:24:32Z oGMo: NeverDie: you'd have to learn it to find out, sorry no spoilers
2015-09-29T17:24:36Z attila_lendvai: NeverDie: you'll probably have more trouble with setting up a decent common lisp environment, so I'd pick a simple haskell tutorial and play with it as long as I feel the vibe
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2015-09-29T17:24:45Z oGMo: and you shouldn't
2015-09-29T17:25:04Z NeverDie: attila_lendvai: That's making me want to learn Lisp more lol.
2015-09-29T17:25:08Z Shinmera: attila_lendvai: Really? My experience was the other way around.
2015-09-29T17:25:26Z sjl: the more languages you learn the less likely you are to be fully satisfied by any of them, so I guess if you want to be truly happy don't learn any languages :)
2015-09-29T17:25:27Z LiamH: If (random 2) comes up 0, learn CL first. Bonus, you're already using lisp.
2015-09-29T17:26:16Z dlowe: I do think CL is easier to pick up if you've already done some programming.
2015-09-29T17:27:37Z attila_lendvai: well, I have only played with haskell to compile darcs, and that was rather slick. other than that you have a command line tool to generate an exe, so that's most probably simpler to start with than emacs, slime, etc... or rlwrap sbcl, but that'll be lame
2015-09-29T17:28:13Z oGMo: sbcl, quicklisp, and you can grab the rest, it's almost too easy now
2015-09-29T17:28:15Z attila_lendvai: NeverDie: will you do that on windoze, linux or mac?
2015-09-29T17:28:25Z NeverDie: Mac most probably.
2015-09-29T17:28:36Z NeverDie: My macbook is a dual boot between OS X and Arch Linux.
2015-09-29T17:28:46Z oGMo: CCL then if you want cocoa stuff, but
2015-09-29T17:29:09Z attila_lendvai: I was talking about it from a linux perspective, and also before quicklisp times, so maybe approaching cl is not that bad anymore
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2015-09-29T17:29:24Z resttime: If you want to start with Common Lisp I recommend grabbing: Emacs (editor) + Paredit (addon) + SLIME (addon) + (EVIL if you prefer VIM bindings) + SBCL (Common Lisp implementation)
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2015-09-29T17:30:01Z attila_lendvai: from my memory, that^ is exactly that will make you get annoyed with setup before you get the vibe of getting things done
2015-09-29T17:30:07Z rme: If you just want to get started fast, getting Clozure CL from the Mac App Store is dead simple.
2015-09-29T17:30:45Z rme: You can switch later to emacs/slime or to sbcl or whatever.
2015-09-29T17:31:22Z NeverDie: Anyone have a link how I can set up a common lisp environment?
2015-09-29T17:31:29Z attila_lendvai: NeverDie: but I also have to add that slime is such a nice environment that I can hardly compare the experience of programming with it to anything I know. (a repl and a great debugger and inspector)
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2015-09-29T17:31:56Z NeverDie: Reading more and more about Lisp seems really interesting.
2015-09-29T17:32:03Z NeverDie: I guess I'll try learning both at the same time lol.
2015-09-29T17:32:11Z NeverDie: Can't really decide which one.
2015-09-29T17:32:29Z rme: NeverDie:  https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clozure-cl/id489900618?mt=12
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2015-09-29T17:34:46Z NeverDie: rme: Thank you.
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2015-09-29T17:35:01Z resttime: "Practical Common Lisp" is a great introduction available online if you already "know" programming
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2015-09-29T17:36:18Z resttime: Might have been one of the first resources I used to learn by myself as well
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2015-09-29T17:41:02Z Fare: OK, so cffi-grovel::static-program-op works on sbcl
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2015-09-29T17:50:12Z Guest86243: ?
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2015-09-29T17:51:59Z Guest86243: ?
2015-09-29T17:52:25Z Bicyclidine: use words, please
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2015-09-29T17:58:08Z attila_lendvai has realized that he will have to set up a complete bluez-ffi project with cffi-grovel, and decided to start that later when the sun is on its way up
2015-09-29T17:59:04Z Fare: attila_lendvai, well, if you need statically-linked sbcl goodness, now you can have it!
2015-09-29T17:59:54Z attila_lendvai: Fare: yeah, I was looking at it. but my target has 64M ram and 8M flash. I'm playing with ecl instead...
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2015-09-29T18:01:13Z Fare: rme: can ccl be statically-linked, like sbcl ?
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2015-09-29T18:03:43Z Fare: yeah, sbcl is not ideal for that
2015-09-29T18:03:46Z Fare: what about ccl?
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2015-09-29T18:04:03Z Fare: won't fit in 8M flash, never mind
2015-09-29T18:04:18Z xyh: Fare: try #ccl
2015-09-29T18:04:25Z Fare: xyh: did done
2015-09-29T18:06:03Z Fare: NeverDie, actually, I know a guy who teaches human languages and says it's much better to learn several at once than to learn them in succession.
2015-09-29T18:06:16Z NeverDie: Fare: Lol seriously?
2015-09-29T18:06:33Z NeverDie: I know about 4 languages, English, Spanish, German, Japanese.
2015-09-29T18:06:48Z NeverDie: Then again I never really tried learning two at once.
2015-09-29T18:07:08Z dwchandler: I have. It's harder but has advantages
2015-09-29T18:07:11Z NeverDie: Does he explain why?
2015-09-29T18:07:18Z Fare: http://www.tonguesinteractive.com/
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2015-09-29T18:08:25Z dwchandler: When you learn languages serially, you tend to put the new grammar into the same part of your brain as previous langs. Same for vocab.
2015-09-29T18:08:40Z dwchandler: Learn them in parallel and they go into different areas.
2015-09-29T18:08:43Z dwchandler: Srsly
2015-09-29T18:08:57Z NeverDie: Interesting.
2015-09-29T18:09:01Z dwchandler: So it's harder to learn that way, but you mix them up less
2015-09-29T18:09:17Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, what license you chose for clws?
2015-09-29T18:09:43Z NeverDie: Fare: That's really interesting, thank you for that tidbit of information.
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2015-09-29T18:10:58Z aeth: dwchandler: does that apply even when the languages are close to each other like e.g. Spanish and Portuguese?
2015-09-29T18:11:37Z dwchandler: I'm learning Norwegian and Swedish, which are even closer
2015-09-29T18:12:11Z dwchandler: I'd say that's when it works best :)
2015-09-29T18:12:51Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, I want to rewrite my fork further and also I want to reuse mailbox/queue code in other project
2015-09-29T18:13:05Z dwchandler: I.e., you train your brain to recognize one vs. the other and can respond correctly
2015-09-29T18:13:20Z dwchandler: but now we're way off topic
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2015-09-29T18:13:32Z aeth: What about Danish too? Norwegian shares a lot of orthography with it.
2015-09-29T18:13:56Z dwchandler: I can mostly read Danish, but it's really hard to understand them
2015-09-29T18:13:58Z aeth: right, this is a #lispcafe topic
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2015-09-29T18:15:26Z dwchandler: parting thought: almost any language learning idea has supporters and detractors and not all people learn the same. see what works and adjust
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2015-09-29T18:16:07Z DeadTrickster: what was that library tried to mimic erlang-style mailboxes/messaging? chanl?
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2015-09-29T18:16:25Z aeth: Right. To bring it on topic... I think easier languages to learn at the same time would be sbcl, ecl, ccl, clisp, etc. :-p
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2015-09-29T18:19:36Z DeadTrickster: no that was cl-muproc
2015-09-29T18:19:37Z DeadTrickster: (
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2015-09-29T18:21:20Z aeth: ) ; probably fixes paredit-mode for anyone who might happen to be using it in IRC
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2015-09-29T18:23:09Z aeth: oh wait, nevermind, that wouldn't work because people use smilies
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2015-09-29T18:23:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: (((
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2015-09-29T18:28:36Z Fare: DeadTrickster, I tried chanl a few years ago and I have race conditions. I moved to lparallel and was satisfied.
2015-09-29T18:29:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I would suggest Haskell before Lisp because Haskell forces you to think in a different way while Lisp just asks nicely
2015-09-29T18:29:03Z Fare: s/have/had/ — hopefully chanl is fixed now, but good luck finding out.
2015-09-29T18:29:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which means that you'll learn a new way to think about programming quicker by starting with Haskell
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2015-09-29T18:30:49Z Fare: fiddlerwoaroof, lisp also is a different way to think about programming
2015-09-29T18:30:51Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: or Scheme
2015-09-29T18:31:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point is that you can write Java easier in Lisp/Scheme than in Haskell
2015-09-29T18:31:25Z aeth: I tried Haskell a long time ago and the syntax was a major obstacle. I could probably write passable Haskell now, but only because I actually learned most of the relevant concepts in Scheme, where the syntax isn't an obstacle.
2015-09-29T18:31:49Z Fare: you can use TypedRacket and/or wait for it to have decent dependent types
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2015-09-29T18:33:04Z aeth: I don't think you can write Java in (portable) Scheme, and even if there's some way to do it, the ! is always a reminder that you're cheating.
2015-09-29T18:33:20Z aeth: You can definitely write Java in Common Lisp, though, because it's more multiparadigm and less opinionated.
2015-09-29T18:33:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: by "syntax" do you just mean all the new operators?
2015-09-29T18:34:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think of Haskell as having very much or very unusual syntax otherwise.
2015-09-29T18:35:50Z aeth: There's quite a lot of unusual syntax if you're used to C-style languages. At least with Lisp you can basically think of (foo bar baz) as foo(bar, baz)
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2015-09-29T18:36:31Z dlowe: I think of Haskell syntax as yet another attempt to remove parens from lisp
2015-09-29T18:36:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I don't know if I was ever "used" to C-style languages
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2015-09-29T18:37:12Z dlowe: Because it's still prefix function application bounded by spaces, excepting the interesting and flexible infix rules
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2015-09-29T18:37:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, "Haskell as reader macro"
2015-09-29T18:38:34Z dlowe: You could make a reader that would implement Haskell syntax pretty easily
2015-09-29T18:38:48Z dlowe: and then it will be about as readable as Haskell. :p
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2015-09-29T18:39:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure Lispers can complain about Haskell's readability
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2015-09-29T18:40:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: :p
2015-09-29T18:40:55Z aeth: At least with long, descriptive names you can kind of figure out what's going on without getting a PhD in the subject first.
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2015-09-29T18:44:15Z drmeister: When printing - is there any combination of *print-xxx* dynamic variables that will limit the width of each line but not stick lots of white-space into the file?
2015-09-29T18:44:48Z drmeister: I need something like *print-pretty* *print-width* control but not all the white space that gets inserted into lines.
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2015-09-29T18:45:13Z drmeister: I'm writing out gigabytes of text and I don't want it all on one line.
2015-09-29T18:45:21Z Fare: I don't thinkso.
2015-09-29T18:45:40Z drmeister: Ok, thanks - GB on one line it is.
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2015-09-29T18:48:03Z resttime: Inspired by Guest86243's attempts at communication I wrote an encoder and decoder for an alien question mark language http://paste.lisp.org/display/155973
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2015-09-29T18:52:49Z resttime: Guest86243: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155973#1
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2015-09-29T18:58:11Z resttime: oops, there's a bug, #'question-char should be #'question-word in #'encode
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2015-09-29T19:11:46Z Fare: the last KB is all closing parens?
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2015-09-29T20:43:22Z faalentijn: I wish an A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation had an official answer book.
2015-09-29T20:43:54Z faalentijn: The only answer I can find are people doing crazy things which we didn't in the book yet.
2015-09-29T20:43:56Z faalentijn: It is annoying.
2015-09-29T20:45:16Z faalentijn: Wait. Have I been missing the answers chapter the entire time?
2015-09-29T20:46:29Z jlarocco: yeah, I think so
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2015-09-29T20:46:36Z jlarocco: mine has answers
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2015-09-29T20:46:59Z faalentijn: yes. I just realized that I wasted hours on finding the answers for the book.
2015-09-29T20:47:20Z faalentijn: What a me thing to do.
2015-09-29T20:48:09Z dwchandler: But your wish just came true. That's good, right?
2015-09-29T20:48:37Z faalentijn: dwchandler: I'm going to assume that one of you went back in time and asked him to add it in the book.
2015-09-29T20:49:01Z faalentijn: This way I'm less of an idiot.
2015-09-29T20:49:52Z dwchandler reaches for his spray can of UBIK
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2015-09-29T20:51:40Z faalentijn: And it is not like I just started with the book (I'm at recursion chapter). I remember that I'd give anything for the answers during the Applicative chapter.
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2015-09-29T20:56:27Z phf UBIK for UBIK UBIK can of UBIK
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2015-09-29T21:03:25Z Random54377_: Is anyone familiar with M-x slime-load-file?
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2015-09-29T21:19:35Z aeth: Common Lisp doesn't go back in time (or at least doesn't need to to conform with the HyperSpec). For dialects of Lisp that involve time travel, go to ##lisp or their specific channels.
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2015-09-29T21:22:37Z aeth: Sorry, I mean non-forward time travel. Common Lisp does include forward time travel with #'sleep but unfortunately it's only approximate.
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2015-09-29T21:29:50Z dwchandler: aeth: sleep is guaranteed to take you forward *at least* as far as you asked, right?
2015-09-29T21:30:00Z aeth: no
2015-09-29T21:30:07Z dwchandler: damn
2015-09-29T21:30:25Z aeth: It does seem to work in SBCL when I run this lots of times but it says that it's not always true. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm
2015-09-29T21:31:00Z aeth: so (- now then) might be < 10 according to CLHS
2015-09-29T21:31:43Z aeth: However, I don't think that #'sleep will actually go back in time, with (< now then), although there might be bugs in the Lisp implementations that do allow for non-forward time movement.
2015-09-29T21:32:50Z faalentijn: aeth: Obviously. What if I want to run a program yesterday?
2015-09-29T21:33:29Z faalentijn: How would you propose I'd do that if I can't use secret Lisp technology to time travel?
2015-09-29T21:34:45Z aeth: If you want to do it portably, you might want to use trivial-time-travel but you have to run it on an old enough computer.
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2015-09-29T22:13:13Z jlarocco: where does the "trivial" naming convention come from?
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2015-09-29T22:16:51Z attila_lendvai: jlarocco: they are usually just a thin layer on slightly incompatible API's of different lisp implementations
2015-09-29T22:17:16Z jlarocco: ah, that makes sense
2015-09-29T22:19:26Z nyef: Originally, it was something very simple to implement, that did a particular job, no matter how small of a job it was.
2015-09-29T22:19:37Z nyef: Hence, "trivial".
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2015-09-29T22:36:48Z snv: So the "architecture astronauts" are even more of a problem of today, than they were in 2001? Guess it is the result of worse is better approach.
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2015-09-29T22:38:32Z Random54377: Anyone available for tutoring? (paying of course)
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2015-09-29T22:41:02Z snv: Random54377, what happened to the stud doing their own homework? And back then we didn't even had the Khan's Academy…
2015-09-29T22:41:46Z Random54377: Tutoring doesn't involve doing my work lol
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2015-09-29T22:42:25Z Random54377: Setting up Lisp etc, outside of my schools server, is not the assignment
2015-09-29T22:43:13Z pjb: snv: by definition, any program or function written in C++ or in assembler is a bottleneck.  Otherwise they would have been written in python or ruby.
2015-09-29T22:43:14Z Random54377: The project work is suppose to be done on their computers (which dumbs everything down, making it easy), but i want to do it from my co puter
2015-09-29T22:43:32Z pjb: snv: the consequence is that any program or function written in C++ or in assembler is SLOW.
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2015-09-29T22:44:07Z snv: pjb, people write in C++, because they taught it back in school
2015-09-29T22:44:39Z snv: In Russia they write it in Pascal and Basic, because Basic and Pascal is taught in all universities
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2015-09-29T22:46:55Z snv: Back in USSR there was a committee deciding on the education standard, so they came with pascal for some stupid reason.
2015-09-29T22:47:19Z p_l: snv: Pascal was the education standard before 1980s or so in the west as well
2015-09-29T22:47:20Z Random54377: So, seeing how what I want to do is far from cheating, and actually pushes me to learn more than the assigned project... Anyone able to help me set things up to start this project? I've already installed Common Lisp, Emacs, Slime, & Quicklisp (correctly from what I can tell).
2015-09-29T22:48:26Z p_l: snv: the early craze of C (through Unix, in 80s) then C++ was sidestepped a lot in former soviet block, though C++ got there
2015-09-29T22:48:40Z phf: pascal is a decent language to teach von neumann machines, not particularly exciting, but is adequate for potato programming
2015-09-29T22:48:41Z Random54377: Using my schools server, following the given instructions to the dot, does not teach me anything...
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2015-09-29T22:49:00Z fe[nl]ix: Pascal is a pretty good teaching language, if the teachers are into the Algol family
2015-09-29T22:49:34Z resttime: Random54377: What's the problem if you have things setup? If you need a resource "Practical Common Lisp" is a good start
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2015-09-29T22:50:50Z resttime: Also you might like the Paredit addon for emacs too
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2015-09-29T22:52:10Z Random54377: I guess time is my enemy. Knowing how to load certain files (a .sse2f file), and getting everything up and running so that I can start the project.  The project involves 2 or 3 files.
2015-09-29T22:53:00Z phf: i think main reason pascal caught on in russia has more to do with easy availability of pirated turbo pascal first and delphi later
2015-09-29T22:53:01Z snv: p_l, west had Lisp and ML. So russians are niggers. And russians have persecuted the few smart persons, developing the lisp-like languages.
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2015-09-29T22:53:20Z p_l: phf: that was later
2015-09-29T22:53:21Z snv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Turchin
2015-09-29T22:53:59Z p_l: snv: kindly read up on why TeX is written in modified Pascal :>
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2015-09-29T22:56:19Z snv: p_l, TeX? Is that some prehistoric form of HTML?
2015-09-29T22:56:52Z p_l: no, something far greater
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2015-09-29T22:57:48Z Random54377: .sse2f files, .lisp files... knowing how to load them so they work together is a mystery to me...  Finding stuff on .sse2f seems to be a challenge
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2015-09-29T22:57:53Z pjb: yvm: you can do: (declaim (declaration immutable)) (defun f (x) (declare (type fixnum x) (immutable x)) (+ x 2)) ; and pray for a compiler to implement this immutable declaration.
2015-09-29T22:58:12Z snv: p_l, welcome to the future, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_McFly! We have Microsoft Word and Google Docs here.
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2015-09-29T23:00:20Z phf: p_l: i've read some personal accounts of su computing by people from various closed and not so closed нии and haven't encountered pascal used in the wild. got any pointers?
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2015-09-29T23:00:34Z White_Flame: Random54377: presuming that .sse2f files are the compiled binaries for your system, copying them to another machine is not guaranteed to work
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2015-09-29T23:01:25Z p_l: snv: which make it either hard (Word) or near impossible to make good looking documents (they are at most supposed to be input to tools that handle that, though). Also, quite interesting to hear someone calling "russians" "niggers"... from Moscow
2015-09-29T23:01:39Z pjb: easye: soon there will be com.informatimago.clext.pipe-stream.
2015-09-29T23:02:19Z snv: p_l, the fact I live in moscow has nothing to do with my loyalty to local traditions. And I'm not russian.
2015-09-29T23:02:34Z snv: I'm ukrainian
2015-09-29T23:02:56Z p_l: phf: dunno about "wild" which is probably lost on paper cards, long-trashed hard disks and floppies, but a lot of the literature from that time (got a bunch) was heavy on fortran and pascal as the main language, at least the stuff I managed to get
2015-09-29T23:03:12Z Random54377: White_Flame: Oic..... so this project may only be possible on the schools server? If I post one online, would you be able to tell?
2015-09-29T23:03:27Z White_Flame: no, I wouldn't be able to tell
2015-09-29T23:03:29Z p_l: snv: wasn't assuming about your nationality, more irked about general use of the expletive tbh
2015-09-29T23:03:48Z rme: I guess that  .sse2f is a CMUCL fasl file.
2015-09-29T23:04:11Z pjb: phf: Pascal is deader than Lisp.  It was used in MacOS, in uscd-p system, in Sol (to implement systems), and of course in a lot of application programs.  Object-Pascal was the first object oriented programming language available to write application on MacOS (MacApp).
2015-09-29T23:04:17Z resttime: rme: correct, it's a fasl compiled with sse2 it seems http://www.cons.org/cmucl/news/release-19f.txt
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2015-09-29T23:04:39Z White_Flame: Random54377: most people use SBCL nowadays, I've not heard of people "in the wild" using CMUCL, though it sounds like your school still does
2015-09-29T23:04:51Z White_Flame: SBCL forked off of CMU in 2004 or so
2015-09-29T23:04:54Z p_l: phf: a lot of code in Poland (and probably further east) was written with delphi, which I find obvious given how easy it was to make GUI with it
2015-09-29T23:04:55Z pjb: phf: It has been replaced by programs written in Lisp (ie. Interface Builder), rewritten in Objective-C (a mix of Smalltalk coming from Lisp, and of C coming from unix) to make NeXTSTEP -> MacOSX -> iOS.
2015-09-29T23:05:18Z Random54377: So I need CMU instead of SBCL most likely?
2015-09-29T23:05:27Z White_Flame: (where did I get that from?  wiki says 1999)
2015-09-29T23:06:04Z White_Flame: Random54377: at the very least.  However, if you have a different CPU, different OS, or even a slightly different version of CMUCL, the fasl won't necessarily work
2015-09-29T23:06:31Z White_Flame: they're effectively intermediate binaries just for that platform
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2015-09-29T23:07:25Z resttime: Well this is also assuming you aren't provided the source code for the .sse2f
2015-09-29T23:07:48Z resttime: .sse2f is just the compiled .lisp file
2015-09-29T23:08:17Z Random54377: Can I decompile it? When opened in notepad, it looks like it might be possible
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2015-09-29T23:08:56Z White_Flame: there's no tools to decompile it
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2015-09-29T23:09:31Z phf: p_l: well, so far that corroborates with what i know. my impression is that in su pascal was mostly educational, with fortran, assembler and a handful of homebaked langs used in production. i.e. there aren't equivalents of macos or tex that we know of anyway. i'd be pretty cool to read about some closed projects that was written in pascal during soviet times
2015-09-29T23:09:33Z White_Flame: if you have same-filename.sse2f and same-filename.lisp, presume that the latter is the source code for the former
2015-09-29T23:09:58Z White_Flame: snooping through with notepad can confirm that the symbol names at least have some matches, if you like
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2015-09-29T23:10:31Z p_l: phf: might ask a bit around, but I strongly suspect a bunch of pascal for aerodynamics, at least at Warsaw Institute of Technology in late 80s
2015-09-29T23:11:03Z nyef: phf: Pascal was one of the major programming languages used for MacOS in the old days. To the point where it was the main language used in the API descriptions in the Inside Macintosh series.
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2015-09-29T23:11:47Z p_l: Pascal was also main language for Windows till NT and "classic" window v4 (9x series)
2015-09-29T23:11:58Z p_l: as in, the whole windows ABI is based on it
2015-09-29T23:12:05Z nyef: That too.
2015-09-29T23:12:19Z nyef: 16-bit windows was very Pascal-compatible.
2015-09-29T23:12:25Z dwchandler: I used Turbo P -> Borland P -> Delphi. Pretty damned good for "potato programming"
2015-09-29T23:12:26Z nyef: And then there was Borland Delphi...
2015-09-29T23:12:35Z phf: nyef: sorry, i might've not made it clear, but i was proding p_l about his potential knowledge of pascl use in production in soviet union (i.e. before 1993)
2015-09-29T23:12:45Z nyef: Ah.
2015-09-29T23:12:54Z rme: I liked THINK Pascal quite a bit more than I liked THINK C.  But I liked MCL better than both (when I finally learned about it).
2015-09-29T23:13:19Z YottaByte: hi guys I know nothing about lisp does (setq x ((expt 10 4)+ x)) add 10000 to the original value of x?
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2015-09-29T23:13:27Z nyef: ... I probably have a set of THINK C disks somewhere, actually... Might be 800k disks, though.
2015-09-29T23:13:38Z YottaByte: (like x += in C like languages)
2015-09-29T23:13:49Z p_l: in hobbyist programming/learning in poland, I think it took advent of PHP to kill Pascal
2015-09-29T23:14:12Z dwchandler: YottaByte: what's with that infix '+' anyway? ;)
2015-09-29T23:14:14Z snv: So my point is that Pascal and C++ are bad for education, because they make explorative programming hard.
2015-09-29T23:14:16Z nyef: There's STILL Pascal environments available these days.
2015-09-29T23:14:27Z snv: compared to say Scheme
2015-09-29T23:14:29Z phf: dwchandler: it's a term from some twisted python folk that differentiate high order sequence manipulation (and related abstractions) from traditional index based offsets, sort of like counting potatoes "one potato, two potatoes, ...". i also did a bunch of pascal and delphi back in the 90s :)
2015-09-29T23:14:42Z snv: CL would be too advanced for newbies too.
2015-09-29T23:14:45Z YottaByte: dwchandler I don't follow haha
2015-09-29T23:15:00Z rme: YottaByte: you would write (incf x (expt 10 4)) or (setq x (+ x (expt 10 4)))
2015-09-29T23:15:16Z dwchandler: YottaByte: you have only one '+' in there, and it don't look right to me
2015-09-29T23:15:16Z nyef: snv: Compared to Scheme? Maybe. But I never used to have much trouble with exploratory programming in Turbo Pascal or using gcc.
2015-09-29T23:15:18Z phf: dwchandler: my point was that pascal is a good language, if you're not trying to do hofs, classes, etc.
2015-09-29T23:15:25Z YottaByte: oh did I have my + in the wrong place?
2015-09-29T23:15:45Z p_l: for explorative programming to get people interested, give them an easy way to draw on screen...
2015-09-29T23:15:48Z dwchandler: phf: yeah :)
2015-09-29T23:16:02Z White_Flame: YottaByte: yes, in  ((expt 10 4)+ x)
2015-09-29T23:16:23Z White_Flame: (incf x 10000) would be more idiomatic
2015-09-29T23:16:26Z dwchandler: phf: I kind of like the term "potato programming". I'll find a use for it here and there :)
2015-09-29T23:16:37Z snv: nyef, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_(psychology)#Sexual_imprinting
2015-09-29T23:16:56Z White_Flame: YottaByte: but (setf x (+ (expt 10 4) x)) also works
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2015-09-29T23:17:19Z resttime: YottaByte: don't forget to do prefix in lisp and you should be fine
2015-09-29T23:17:43Z resttime: but yeah #'incf and #'decf
2015-09-29T23:17:49Z YottaByte: cool
2015-09-29T23:17:51Z pjb: aeth: (define nreverse reverse!)
2015-09-29T23:17:53Z YottaByte: thanks y'all
2015-09-29T23:18:05Z pjb: aeth: reminder deleted.
2015-09-29T23:18:38Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: lispers complain about haskell's readability. This is why there is liskell.
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2015-09-29T23:22:01Z Random54377: Guess I'll check out CMUCL, and if that ends up being a failure... I'll just use the schools server :( ... Thanks for the help all
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2015-09-29T23:23:15Z nyef: Wow... CMUCL, still. Is rtoym still working on that, or is it finally maintainerless?
2015-09-29T23:23:38Z White_Flame: Random54377: do new personal lisp exploration on your own.  Do version-specific classwork on their box as intended
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2015-09-29T23:24:03Z phf: nyef: it's getting steady commits, but yeah mostly from rtoym
2015-09-29T23:24:23Z snv: p_l, they should use DOS assembly then. Drawing was as simple as moving a byte into framebuffer.
2015-09-29T23:27:18Z aeth: pjb: A language is as much its conventions as its features. Otherwise, Java would be slightly better.
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2015-09-29T23:29:46Z pjb: phf: pascal is a better language than C to do HOF because at least, it has inner closures.
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2015-09-29T23:30:32Z pjb: phf: and again, it was OO before C.
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2015-09-29T23:31:21Z pjb: resttime: #'incf is meaningless.  This is a FUCKING macro!
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2015-09-29T23:33:57Z resttime: pjb: ah my bad, can you explain to me why #' does not work for listing macros?
2015-09-29T23:34:05Z resttime: errr referring to macros that is
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2015-09-29T23:34:13Z pjb: because macros are not functions.
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2015-09-29T23:34:30Z pjb: #'x is read as fucking (CL:FUNCTION x).
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2015-09-29T23:34:39Z pjb: We keep repeating it every day!
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2015-09-29T23:35:14Z resttime: pjb: hmmm, understood I'll be more careful
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2015-09-29T23:37:18Z aeth: pjb: That's probably one of the flaws of Lisp-2s. It's hard to tell macros from functions without knowing.
2015-09-29T23:37:44Z aeth: I know incf is a macro (over setf and 1+) just because I happen to have gotten an error before, I think in a map nil or something.
2015-09-29T23:39:00Z resttime: Is there a way to refer to a macro to distinguish it?
2015-09-29T23:39:19Z aeth: (I guess map-into with #'1+ is preferable with what I was trying to do?)
2015-09-29T23:39:41Z aeth: (This was a few months ago, so I'm not quite clear on the details, unfortunately, I just know that incf can't be used in map.)
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2015-09-29T23:40:45Z resttime: I've erroneously been using #' to distinguish an operation in general
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2015-09-29T23:41:23Z aeth: More generally, it's sometimes unclear when to use #'foo, 'foo, :foo, and foo especially because of macros. And often multiple versions are accepted in the same function or macro.
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2015-09-29T23:56:19Z pjb: Operators are named by symbols or by lists of the form (CL:SETF <symbol>).  #'x does not evaluate to the function name, it evaluates to the function named X.
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2015-09-30T00:00:25Z Fare: pjb: can you at least make a release with ASDF 3.1.6 when it's out?
2015-09-30T00:00:56Z pjb: No I can't.
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2015-09-30T00:04:52Z aeth: pjb: So what's #'(lambda (x) (+ 2 x)) do then? It seems like the #' or (function (lambda ...)) is meaningless on most implementations.
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2015-09-30T00:05:10Z pjb: aeth: the name of anonymous functions are the lambda forms. :-)
2015-09-30T00:05:15Z foggy_dream: hello. does anyone want to checkout a beta startup written lisp?
2015-09-30T00:05:27Z pjb: aeth: Indeed, I forgot to mention them.
2015-09-30T00:05:38Z resttime: pjb: Hmmm I'll stop with #' then, would I be in the clear if I just used ' to distinguish things?
2015-09-30T00:05:55Z foggy_dream: (please be gentle)
2015-09-30T00:05:57Z pjb: resttime: just the name: IF INCF and CAR are (the names of) operators.
2015-09-30T00:06:34Z drmeister: What's the deal with AREF and other array/vector access functions?  Do they turn off range checks when (SAFETY 0)?
2015-09-30T00:06:51Z White_Flame: aeth: (function (lambda (..) ...)) is the proper form.  (lambda (...) ...) expands to that via the LAMBDA macro
2015-09-30T00:07:08Z aeth: drmeister: I think so because I've gotten out of range before with (safety 0) on some fancy Project Euler algorithms
2015-09-30T00:07:35Z White_Flame: resttime: I tend to just use uppercase to distinguish symbols from words
2015-09-30T00:07:37Z aeth: e.g. a sieve where you're not counting by 1+
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2015-09-30T00:07:59Z resttime: White_Flame: oh that makes sense, thanks I'll do that from now on
2015-09-30T00:08:42Z aeth: and yes it's ironic that someone recommended Project Euler so I wouldn't just spend all my time doing sieves, but the sieves are required for some of Project Euler afaik.
2015-09-30T00:09:03Z aeth: s/my time/my practice time/
2015-09-30T00:10:50Z aeth: A simple test case would be (defun foo () (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (aref #(0) 4))
2015-09-30T00:11:02Z aeth: oops, that doesn't work on SBCL because SBCL is too smart and constant folds it.
2015-09-30T00:12:00Z aeth: (defun foo (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (aref x 4))
2015-09-30T00:13:02Z zacts: hi lispers
2015-09-30T00:14:34Z aeth: It looks like on SBCL (speed 3) (safety 0) will not check bounds, but (speed 3) (safety 1) will. (This matches my experience.) Further test cases show that speed's irrelevant here, only safety matters.
2015-09-30T00:16:07Z aeth: clisp always checks. So does ecl. I think it's just sbcl.
2015-09-30T00:16:33Z Bike: might be. it's in the manual. safety 0 isn't defined to break in any aprticular way, of course.
2015-09-30T00:17:20Z aeth: Right, I suspected that the definition of declare optimize wouldn't matter, so all that matters is tests afaik. I only happen to have clisp, ecl, and sbcl installed because that's all Fedora provides in the repository.
2015-09-30T00:17:39Z Bike: implementation manuals probably say something.
2015-09-30T00:17:41Z aeth: (What I mean to say is that the definition isn't specific, but there might be a de facto standard. It doesn't appear to be that way.)
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2015-09-30T00:18:00Z aeth: Yeah, but running 4 functions doesn't take that much time.
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2015-09-30T00:18:25Z aeth: just an out of bounds aref of a passed in #(0) with various optimization tags, including (safety 0) and (safety 1) alone and possibly mixed with other options that might also affect things.
2015-09-30T00:18:41Z pjb: The problem is that writing out-of-bound accesses is not conforming. You cannot expect from an implementation to maintain the same semantics when the optimization levels change, for non-conforming code.
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2015-09-30T00:18:58Z Bike: too many variables. not very good empiricism
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2015-09-30T00:19:41Z aeth: Not too many variables, but if I wanted to do this properly, I would have to use all combinations of safety at 0 and 1... and if one implementation doesn't do bound checks at safety of 1 I would have to expand it from there, unfortunately.
2015-09-30T00:19:57Z pjb: Notice that (progn (ignore-errors (foo #(0))) 42) --> 42 conformingly.
2015-09-30T00:20:07Z aeth: I'm assuming that there's never e.g. no bound checks at safety 2 and bound checks at safety 1.
2015-09-30T00:20:07Z pjb: whatever the optimization levels.
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2015-09-30T00:21:17Z pjb: aeth: it doesn't matter what you assume, and whether there are bound checks or not: any code containing such out-of-bound accesses is not conforming, and you have to return to conformity before you can say anything.
2015-09-30T00:21:18Z Bike: really? you just said it was nonconforming.
2015-09-30T00:21:44Z pjb: Bike: you can reestablish conformity, by ignoring the non-conforming results and errors.
2015-09-30T00:21:50Z pjb: and side effects.
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2015-09-30T00:22:09Z foggy_dream: anyone want to try my new Lisp implementation instead?
2015-09-30T00:22:23Z pjb: foggy_dream: no.   We only like Common Lisp here.
2015-09-30T00:22:23Z Bike: so it's not poison, like in C? is that defined somewhere?
2015-09-30T00:22:32Z pjb: foggy_dream: we'd only be interested by a new Common Lisp implementation.
2015-09-30T00:22:48Z pjb: Bike: not absolute poison. You can wrap it out.
2015-09-30T00:23:13Z Bike: right. is that defined somewhere?
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2015-09-30T00:23:22Z White_Flame: foggy_dream: ##lisp is about the lisp family in general, post there
2015-09-30T00:23:25Z foggy_dream: ouch. but, but... common lisp is an old, overblown lisp. Less is more. You want less!
2015-09-30T00:23:48Z White_Flame: interested in seeing what your decisions are, but that's a better place for it
2015-09-30T00:23:51Z pjb: Bike: in the glossary: conforming program n. a program, used to emphasize the fact that the program depends for its correctness only upon documented aspects of Common Lisp, and can therefore be expected to run correctly in any conforming implementation.
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2015-09-30T00:23:56Z aeth: pjb: My edge case was made to outsmart sbcl in particular, so I mean obviously there are holes in it.
2015-09-30T00:24:17Z pjb: aeth: definitely, you can use non-conforming code to detect implementation details.
2015-09-30T00:24:24Z Bike: right. but here the program considered as a whole is nonconforming.
2015-09-30T00:24:28Z pjb: You mostly have to.
2015-09-30T00:24:43Z pjb: Bike: you get to define what's the "whole" of a program.
2015-09-30T00:25:02Z aeth: pjb: what about a new Lisp implementation in Common Lisp?
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2015-09-30T00:25:21Z pjb: aeth: that could be discussed.
2015-09-30T00:25:31Z pjb: as a CL application.
2015-09-30T00:26:08Z aeth: pjb: There are some platforms that are new where restricted DSLs designed for those platforms could make sense over Lisp (designed for CPUs)... e.g. FPGAs and GPUs. Perhaps something that targets both (so sort of a competition for OpenCL which despite the name is not a CL)
2015-09-30T00:26:27Z Bike: i mean, what you're saying is that the nonconforming code is defined to just signal an error and not break the system or whatever, which could make sense, but i don't know that the standard says that.
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2015-09-30T00:27:21Z pjb: Bike: that's indeed the danger with non-conforming code, it could have nasal daemons.  It's part of the side effects, and if you can't ignore them, then you're toast.
2015-09-30T00:27:25Z aeth: In fact, I think a Lispy DSL that compiles to FPGA would probably make more sense and be of more use than trying to put a Lisp CPU on an FPGA like I was talking about earlier.
2015-09-30T00:27:44Z pjb: aeth: well, we have parenscript.
2015-09-30T00:27:46Z Bike: but you said you can ignore them.
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2015-09-30T00:28:44Z pjb: No, I said that if you can ignore them, then you can revert conformity.  Of course, I used English instead of Maths, so you were bound to misunderstand.
2015-09-30T00:28:47Z phf: aeth: there's one, it's called harlan
2015-09-30T00:28:55Z Bike: HDLs and programming languages are not remotely the same, you shouldn't lump them. also, very unfortunately, vendor lockout makes developing your own HDL a pain in the ass
2015-09-30T00:29:23Z pjb: The problem with English and most other natural languages, is that if you don't know the message, you can't interpret it.
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2015-09-30T00:30:49Z phf: aeth: i misparsed your last sentence, so harlan was in reference to gpu and opencl
2015-09-30T00:30:58Z aeth: (let ((x "ignore them") (c "conformity")) (logic (if x c)))
2015-09-30T00:31:07Z aeth: pjb: there you go, we can do pseudocode here
2015-09-30T00:31:26Z Bike: i didn't see any condition on it, is why i asked
2015-09-30T00:31:47Z pjb: Yes, the condition was implied by "by".
2015-09-30T00:32:00Z pjb: if you see "by" then there is a condition.
2015-09-30T00:32:27Z aeth: hmm, actually odds are the logic macro would use :if not if or something
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2015-09-30T00:32:46Z Bike: "by"? i was just going off of " Notice that (progn (ignore-errors (foo #(0))) 42) --> 42 conformingly."
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2015-09-30T00:33:12Z aeth: well I mean yeah that example is conforming
2015-09-30T00:33:20Z aeth: but what if you setf something that's out of bounds in SBCL?
2015-09-30T00:33:46Z aeth: I guess you get something that looks like Windows 9x code
2015-09-30T00:34:16Z Bike: look, i know it's a very rules lawyery question, but i just want to know how a conforming program can contain nonconforming code in a conforming way
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2015-09-30T00:35:08Z pjb: Bike: there's a conditional in ignore-errors.
2015-09-30T00:35:47Z pjb: aeth: yes, setting out of bound is nasal daemons, you get a side effect from which you may not be able to recover.
2015-09-30T00:36:25Z Bike: why is setting nasal demons but not reading? reading could cause a page fault or something
2015-09-30T00:37:51Z pjb: Bike: for example, (lisp-implementation-type) is specified to return a string or nil.  So: (progn (lisp-implementation-type) t) --> t conformingly.  (if (lisp-implementation-type) t nil) --> returns different results depending on the implementation and is not conforming.
2015-09-30T00:38:12Z pjb: Bike: but here, there's no side effect to be ignored, no nasal daemon.
2015-09-30T00:38:20Z pjb: So you can recover from the inconformity.
2015-09-30T00:38:52Z Bike: why is it only defined side effects that cause full nasal demon status?
2015-09-30T00:39:08Z pjb: On the other hand with: (defun f () (write-line (lisp-implementation-type)) 42)  (f) is not conforming.
2015-09-30T00:39:26Z aeth: What if there's a bug in the RAM that happens to affect the "SBCL" or "CLISP" or whatever in (lisp-implementation-type)? Hardware isn't perfect.
2015-09-30T00:40:02Z pjb: for 2 reasons: 1- (lisp-implementation-type) may return nil therefore write-line may signal a type error on its argument. 2- when (lisp-implementation-type) returns a string, it will be different depending on the implementation therefore the side effect on the output stream will be different (and you may not be able to revert this side effect).
2015-09-30T00:40:41Z pjb: Bike: but you still have no nasal daemon, so: (progn (ignore-errors (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*)) (f)) 42) --> 42 conformingly.
2015-09-30T00:41:48Z pjb: On the other hand, considering (defun g (x) (setf (aref x 4) 0))  (ignore-errors (g #(0))) contains a nasal daemon, since we've written a 0 out of bounds, anything could happen, it's quite possible the program crashes (with safety 0) before ignore-errors can work.
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2015-09-30T00:42:12Z Bike: this doesn't answer my question.
2015-09-30T00:42:42Z pjb: In this case, you cannot "ignore the non-conforming results, errors and side effects", therefore you cannot revert the non-conformity.
2015-09-30T00:43:12Z pjb: aeth: what if God calls up last judgement before your program terminates?
2015-09-30T00:43:25Z aeth: pjb: then I'll be quite surprised
2015-09-30T00:43:38Z Bike: yeah, ram bugs are surprising too
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2015-09-30T00:44:11Z aeth: The odds are small but so many computers exist that someone has to be expericing some RAM bug somewhere. Probably not on CL though. It's not widely used enough, unfortunately.
2015-09-30T00:44:17Z aeth: At least not a major RAM bug like in my example
2015-09-30T00:44:42Z pjb: Bike: nasal daemons are side effects by definition.  Different results are not nasal daemons, and different errors signaled are not either.
2015-09-30T00:44:52Z aeth: afaik something like "SCCL" would be more likely. There was some article where someone bought off-by-one domains for RAM bugs iirc. And got traffic.
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2015-09-30T02:15:11Z drl: What is the best CL library to read and parse RSS feeds?
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2015-09-30T02:23:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: drl: probably just use plump and lquery
2015-09-30T02:23:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump
2015-09-30T02:23:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery
2015-09-30T02:24:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have something like a library for that in a project, but I need to split out the "rss-parsing" code
2015-09-30T02:24:59Z resttime: drl: xmls also works, if you just want a plain representation of the feed as a list
2015-09-30T02:25:21Z resttime: https://common-lisp.net/project/xmls/
2015-09-30T02:26:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: XMLisp looks interesting, but I haven't ever really used it
2015-09-30T02:26:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://agentsheets.com/lisp/XMLisp/
2015-09-30T02:31:48Z drl: resttime and fiddlerwoaroof , thanks!
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2015-09-30T02:39:43Z emaczen`: http://paste.lisp.org/+3CCZ -- I'm having trouble with downcasing the readtable
2015-09-30T02:39:43Z minion: emaczen`, memo from pjb: you can also (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve)
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2015-09-30T02:47:49Z __uu__: hi, can I get the content of a table from its NAME string with emacs lisp in an org file?
2015-09-30T02:48:10Z emaczen`: try #emacs
2015-09-30T02:48:58Z emaczen`: or even #org-mode
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2015-09-30T02:49:49Z __uu__: emaczen`: y, but they seems dealing with general questions about emacs (org-mode)
2015-09-30T02:50:06Z __uu__: so I came here to seem if here is any chance
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2015-09-30T02:59:43Z emaczen`: __uu__: #org-mode is your best bet
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2015-09-30T03:00:28Z __uu__: emaczen`: thx, I did that already
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2015-09-30T03:04:56Z emaczen`: I'm a moron -- ignore my paste
2015-09-30T03:07:17Z DeadTrickster: how honest
2015-09-30T03:07:44Z emaczen`: DeadTrickster: Did you read the paste?
2015-09-30T03:08:19Z DeadTrickster: briefly
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2015-09-30T03:08:28Z emaczen`: yeah... pretty sad
2015-09-30T03:10:17Z DeadTrickster: so you thought readtable case will affect printing case or what? :-)
2015-09-30T03:10:29Z nydel: to make a macro character that creates a string. if the character is #\_ then doing CL-USER>_hello    would give the string "hello"
2015-09-30T03:11:02Z nydel: i feel like i'm doing something really obvious wrong, usually macro characters are easy but this one is not working for me
2015-09-30T03:11:18Z Bike: code? you should just accumulate characters until you hit whitespace, i would think.
2015-09-30T03:11:29Z DeadTrickster: nydel, what about _hello world?
2015-09-30T03:11:46Z DeadTrickster: why you even need this please tell us
2015-09-30T03:11:47Z nydel: DeadTrickster: no whitespace
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2015-09-30T03:12:37Z White_Flame: "not working" isn't enough information to go off of
2015-09-30T03:12:43Z nydel: for part of a large project i'm calling muclr/multi-user common lisp repl ... i want a client connected to a repl instance server via lisp to be able to just quickly send commands to the shared repl
2015-09-30T03:13:01Z nydel: White_Flame: right right sorry just one moment i will put some code...
2015-09-30T03:13:03Z kenanb: is there a way to get superclasses of a class without mop?
2015-09-30T03:13:15Z kenanb: direct-superclasses*
2015-09-30T03:13:28Z Bike: not really. that is what mop is for. luckily pretty much all implementations have it.
2015-09-30T03:13:52Z kenanb: I see, thank you Bike
2015-09-30T03:15:17Z DeadTrickster: how equalp works with standard-object instances? from what I just read in CLHS it uses eq, right?
2015-09-30T03:15:50Z Bike: seems so, yeah.
2015-09-30T03:16:08Z DeadTrickster: but structures will work
2015-09-30T03:16:47Z nydel: there's something about implementing macro characters where it needs to do something to both sides of the stream it reads that i've never been able to think out properly
2015-09-30T03:17:07Z DeadTrickster: nydel, both sides?
2015-09-30T03:17:10Z White_Flame:  what's the error?
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2015-09-30T03:18:07Z nydel: this is one thing, it just makes it so i can go cl-user>&(+ 3 5) and the "&" makes it send whatever i did to the shared repl instead of the local http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12622227/
2015-09-30T03:18:24Z nydel: oh wait sorry, that has to be &"in quotes"
2015-09-30T03:18:44Z Bike: seems fine, i guess?
2015-09-30T03:18:51Z nydel: so i wanted to just be able to do & _command which is where this (i'm embarassed because it's sooo wrong) http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12622219/ comes in
2015-09-30T03:19:11Z nydel: that one is supposed to wrap the command in quotes / make it a string
2015-09-30T03:20:09Z Bike: that should get you &foo bar baz doing the same as "foo bar baz", i guess.
2015-09-30T03:20:25Z Bike: the call to string is totally useless, though
2015-09-30T03:21:07Z nydel: do you see what i mean by macro character definitions where it affects "both sides of the thing" ...
2015-09-30T03:21:08Z White_Flame: what do you get?  what's the error?
2015-09-30T03:21:11Z Bike: of course, it eats the entire rest of the line, so you can't do (progn (foo) &bar) without reading "bar)" of course.
2015-09-30T03:21:17Z nydel: i get really confused trying to write those, always have.
2015-09-30T03:21:18Z Bike: and no, i don't see what you mean. you're being weirdly reticent.
2015-09-30T03:23:03Z nydel: forgetting the ampersand thing, i just can't think of what it would look like to make something that will take _hello and give back "hello"
2015-09-30T03:23:18Z nydel: what i came up with just falls apart because it's way off
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2015-09-30T03:23:30Z White_Flame: "just falls apart"? "way off"?
2015-09-30T03:23:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-09-30T03:23:38Z White_Flame: what is it doing that you don't like?  do you get an error message?
2015-09-30T03:23:57Z nydel: "the variable of HELLO is unbound"
2015-09-30T03:24:00Z Bike: seriously, explain, we ain't psychic and haven't been dealing with this problem and don't know what you're thinking.
2015-09-30T03:24:03Z nydel: because hello is a symbol
2015-09-30T03:24:03Z Bike: see, was that so hard?
2015-09-30T03:24:45Z Bike: well, if hello is a symbol and you want a string, take the symbol-name of it.
2015-09-30T03:24:51Z Bike: but i t hink you shouldn't be using the full reader.
2015-09-30T03:25:00Z White_Flame: you get that error in the read-line case?
2015-09-30T03:25:58Z nydel: Bike: if i replace my useless call to #'string with #'symbol-name i can then do _'hello and get "hello"
2015-09-30T03:26:19Z Bike: wait, this is with the read-line one?
2015-09-30T03:26:19Z nydel: that's closer, now if i can just not have to quote it
2015-09-30T03:26:33Z kenanb: another question, how can I check if an inherits from a class?
2015-09-30T03:26:41Z kenanb: if an object inherits from a class
2015-09-30T03:27:06Z Bike: objects don't inherit from classes (unless they are classes). do you mean "how can i check if an object is an instance of a given class?"?
2015-09-30T03:27:11Z kenanb: pardon me if my terminology is bad, I feel inheriting is not the right word
2015-09-30T03:27:14Z nydel: sorry that should be "read" not read-line
2015-09-30T03:27:24Z kenanb: ah, exactly Bike, thank you :)
2015-09-30T03:27:37Z White_Flame: kenanb: subtypep, typep
2015-09-30T03:27:39Z Bike: (typep object 'class-name)
2015-09-30T03:30:19Z kenanb: awesome, thank you :)
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2015-09-30T03:31:03Z nydel: thie one http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12622261/ will allow me to do _'hello and give me "hello" ... is there a way not to have to quote the symbol there though? i.e. just do _hello
2015-09-30T03:31:05Z White_Flame: _hello -> macro READs the symbol HELLO -> returns the list (symbol-name hello)
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2015-09-30T03:32:21Z White_Flame: `(symbol-name ',(read stream ..)) is more idiomatic IMO if you want to insert the quote inside the macro
2015-09-30T03:32:28Z White_Flame: rather than (list 'symbol-name ...)
2015-09-30T03:32:59Z nydel: oh that's much better-written, thank you White_Flame
2015-09-30T03:33:31Z White_Flame: (list 'symbol-name (list 'quote (read ...))) is where you were leading up to initially
2015-09-30T03:33:49Z nydel: that actually works now White_Flame just the way i wanted
2015-09-30T03:34:05Z White_Flame: we could not (and still can't) tell if you want to be reading a symbol or a string
2015-09-30T03:34:13Z nydel: _hello is turned into "hello" well it's upcase but i will fix it all to downcase
2015-09-30T03:34:24Z nydel: oh! a string, sorry
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2015-09-30T03:34:31Z White_Flame headdesks
2015-09-30T03:34:35Z nydel: sending only strings across this platform
2015-09-30T03:34:47Z White_Flame: what terminates the string?
2015-09-30T03:36:17Z nydel: i'm not sure i understand .. it seems to naturally terminate after read (so long as there is no whitespace of course)
2015-09-30T03:36:30Z White_Flame: _hello world
2015-09-30T03:36:37Z nydel: ^ that will error
2015-09-30T03:36:42Z White_Flame: _here(is-some)text
2015-09-30T03:36:50Z White_Flame: _can:i:do:this
2015-09-30T03:36:51Z nydel: variable WORLD undefined i'm pretty sure
2015-09-30T03:37:18Z White_Flame: so, what is the string terminated by in your context, and is it compatible with reading a symbol?
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2015-09-30T03:39:23Z nydel: White_Flame: i'm only doing a few things with it though. like one word commands specific to the multi-user common lisp repl spec. right now doing &_who sends "MUCLRv(version)@(timestamp)[other-details].who" to the server which parses the info and checks an assoc list for a function "who" should run, api.canonical/who and that feeds back a list of logged in users to the person who queried
2015-09-30T03:39:36Z nydel: ideally it should be able to take more than a word but it's a start
2015-09-30T03:40:04Z White_Flame: let me try to ask different
2015-09-30T03:40:05Z White_Flame: ly
2015-09-30T03:40:19Z White_Flame: what characters are allowed in a "word" as this protocol determines?
2015-09-30T03:40:31Z White_Flame: and you will need to rewrite it completely if you want to change it in the future
2015-09-30T03:40:32Z nydel: A-Za-z0-9 i think
2015-09-30T03:40:35Z White_Flame: so understand it now
2015-09-30T03:40:49Z nydel: right i should dothat now so it can handle escape characters / white etc
2015-09-30T03:41:07Z White_Flame: so you need to read characters until a terminator
2015-09-30T03:41:31Z White_Flame: and it looks like you need to preserve case
2015-09-30T03:41:39Z White_Flame: all of this is being inferred; you're not describing something concrete
2015-09-30T03:41:46Z nydel: so maybe i use [these brackets] instead of the underscore?
2015-09-30T03:41:46Z White_Flame: so I have no idea if I'm answering your questions completely or not
2015-09-30T03:41:54Z White_Flame: figure out what you need first
2015-09-30T03:42:02Z White_Flame: there's also whitespace, lisp punctuators, etc
2015-09-30T03:43:58Z nydel: most of the time the user does "(interact-with-the-shared-repl)" and then is at a prompt for doing that.. but i'm adding the ability to just send stuff to the shared repl quickly in case the user feels like working mainly in their own repl at the time then occasionally forwarding a line or two to the muclr instance
2015-09-30T03:44:20Z nydel: that's why this is so messy, it's kind of being implemented as an afterthought that i should've done during initial planning
2015-09-30T03:45:24Z White_Flame: yeah, "just send stuff" is quite hand-wavy, and not something you can code to
2015-09-30T03:45:25Z nydel: thank you muchly for the help White_Flame i've got an idea of how to plan and execute this properly now. i appreciate you taking the time
2015-09-30T03:46:00Z White_Flame: np
2015-09-30T03:47:17Z nydel: in my multi-user common lisp, i want each user to be working in their own repl, like their own namespace. but also they can manipulate the shared repl when they see fit by using the muclr commands as defined in spec. and since that spec is still under heavy development, i have to say "just send stuff" etc because i'm not sure exactly how things look
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2015-09-30T03:47:53Z nydel: i just know that i want every user to have their own repl that can't be manipulated by other users, other users can only manipulate the shared repl.
2015-09-30T03:50:07Z nydel: it should be super-fun (building the project, using the project to build itself/other things) but i could really use some other people on the dev team. i'm surprised at how little response the idea of shared repl spaces (essentially creating a social/mud-like feature to your lisp) has gotten.
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2015-09-30T03:50:57Z White_Flame: what does it mean to share a repl?
2015-09-30T03:51:11Z White_Flame: if I evaluate *, or + or / in terms of calling up history, is that affected by what others do?
2015-09-30T03:51:19Z White_Flame: do I see their keystrokes?
2015-09-30T03:52:15Z White_Flame: or do we just reside in the same package?
2015-09-30T03:53:02Z nydel: you can send something like "MUCLR.EVAL:(defun helloworld () (format t "hi")).SUBMIT" to the registrar server where your instance of cl is running, the instance into which you're logged. then a heirarchy system or democracy decides whether that request is actually sent to be dealt with by the shared repl
2015-09-30T03:53:24Z White_Flame: what is shared?
2015-09-30T03:53:42Z White_Flame: if it's just remotely evaluating a form, that has little to do with a stateful repl, except in accessing history
2015-09-30T03:53:47Z White_Flame: and the current package
2015-09-30T03:55:36Z loke: nydel: You can already connect multiple SLIME instances to a single Lisp image. How is that different from your multi-user repl concept?
2015-09-30T03:55:46Z nydel: one instance of cl is shared along with the project that it loads
2015-09-30T03:55:53Z nydel: and the version control,source etc
2015-09-30T03:56:17Z loke: I've had sessions with multiple people working on the same image (it was a web-server driven by hunchentoot) and it was OK
2015-09-30T03:56:32Z White_Flame: yeah, we often do what loke describes for remote debugging, even multi-person troubleshooting
2015-09-30T03:57:12Z nydel: loke: when you do it with swank it's not "ok i'm in my repl but also in a chatroom with other programmers who are in their repls and we're all circling an repl that belongs to nobody more than anybody else here"
2015-09-30T03:57:35Z White_Flame: as I suspected before, you're talking more UI development
2015-09-30T03:57:43Z White_Flame: instead of some fundamentally different repl
2015-09-30T03:57:45Z nydel: not necessarily UI
2015-09-30T03:57:57Z White_Flame: you have a "shared repl" pane, a "private repl" pane, etc?
2015-09-30T03:58:00Z nydel: in fact probably not. i'm thinking more about something like AI research.
2015-09-30T03:58:16Z nydel: i haven't decided if there are panes or different buffers or what
2015-09-30T03:58:32Z nydel: i could imagine a qt or tcltk gui but i would rather avoid all of that nonsense and be terminal
2015-09-30T03:59:24Z White_Flame: I wouldn't want to use the REPL at a terminal without SLIME
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2015-09-30T03:59:35Z White_Flame: you don't even get command history in sbcl
2015-09-30T03:59:37Z loke: nydel: All righ tthen. Can you give us an example use-case of something you'd do (that is different from what you do with multple SLIME's?)
2015-09-30T03:59:53Z White_Flame: unless yo'ure talking about your own text-based interface on top of the repl which manages everything
2015-09-30T03:59:59Z nydel: White_Flame: you can connect from telnet, sbcl, or slime. i'd recommend slime of course but the way it's set up you can do it any of those ways
2015-09-30T04:00:19Z White_Flame: that doesn't quite compute
2015-09-30T04:00:34Z White_Flame: if you connect in via telnet, do you get slime features running server-side?
2015-09-30T04:00:38Z White_Flame: what is "connect from sbcl"?
2015-09-30T04:00:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: actually, you can get a pretty decent repl with linedit
2015-09-30T04:00:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, slime is definitely better
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2015-09-30T04:01:25Z nydel: via telnet you just have prompt access to the shared repl and you can type in its spec'd language directly to it. not how it is meant to work but possible.
2015-09-30T04:01:33Z nydel: by "from sbcl" i mean using a lisp without slime
2015-09-30T04:02:04Z nydel: but there is a separate client package meant to make it really easy to browse ALL the muclr things going on in the world and interact with one or many of them easily
2015-09-30T04:02:18Z loke: "shared repl" makes even less sense. From what is the "read" part of repl reading from?
2015-09-30T04:02:33Z nydel: like irc if every channel had an instance of slime running inside of it
2015-09-30T04:04:28Z White_Flame: so everybody would be competing for what the value of * was?
2015-09-30T04:04:46Z nydel: the value of * is unique to everyone's own repl
2015-09-30T04:04:48Z White_Flame: basically "Twitch plays SLIME" :-P
2015-09-30T04:05:05Z loke: nydel: So it's exactly like multiple SLIME's connected to a Lisp runtime?
2015-09-30T04:05:52Z nydel: it is multiple slimes connected to one communal project & its source/version control + an instance of CL in which that project runs
2015-09-30T04:05:57Z White_Flame: I mean, adding chat facilities and such is fine, but I'd see this more as customized to a game client.  Given multi-SLIME connections, the screen utility, and voice chat, collaborative development is just fine so far
2015-09-30T04:07:03Z nydel: it could be a lot easier. and the prospect of an open registrar that anyone can look through via the muclr client is what interests me a lot.
2015-09-30T04:07:10Z White_Flame: when you get into shared source/version control, that's far more along the realms of desktop sharing than lisp image sharing
2015-09-30T04:07:12Z nydel: there isn't anything like that right now
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2015-09-30T04:08:04Z loke: nydel: I still fail to see what the difference is. Can you point to a _concrete_ difference?
2015-09-30T04:08:39Z nydel: the lisp image is controlled by the muclr process above it. so someone with level 0 access (highest i mean) could tell the muclr "restart the commonlisp and only load up this file" or whatever else is possible to want to do
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2015-09-30T04:09:49Z White_Flame: which is the equivalent of terminal access to the machine hosting the lisp image
2015-09-30T04:10:29Z nydel: loke: it's possible that i can't. but as far as i'm aware there is no such service that makes lisp projects social and works around a registry full of projects (or tiny little fun things, could be a muclr instance called "help me solve this problem for my comp sci class" or a muclr for muclr dev itself)
2015-09-30T04:11:07Z White_Flame: it seems like it would be a much higher burden to integrate your project in something like that, then just start banging files locally
2015-09-30T04:11:18Z snv1: nydel, make it run from bare hardware, without Lunix underneath.
2015-09-30T04:11:36Z White_Flame: add in git, screen sharing, voice chat, and remote SLIMEing, and it's pretty collaborative
2015-09-30T04:12:03Z loke: nydel: I think that's pretty much the core of your fifficulties in finding support for your ideas. If you can't even explain exactly what it is that you want to achieve, and why it's so much better than what we're already using to warrant the extra effort in making it, I'm afraid you'll fail.
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2015-09-30T04:14:52Z nydel: loke: oh i have a great idea of what i want to do. i get the feeling you find the project &or myself simply annoying at its core but if you like i've written quite a bit up at the github repo https://github.com/nydel/muclr see the spec and the vym map
2015-09-30T04:15:51Z White_Flame: not to get all armchair-psychiatrist, but that's a pretty defensive projection
2015-09-30T04:16:00Z White_Flame: erm, psychologist, whatever
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2015-09-30T04:18:53Z loke: White_Flame: Not at all. Arguably, I'm coloured by my personal opinions about such things, but I don't think I'm alone in stating that even after reading that description, I'm still not clear on what the _actual_ benefits of this thing is.
2015-09-30T04:19:00Z loke: I mean nydel
2015-09-30T04:19:29Z loke: That said, I am working on a team collaboration system of my own, but it's more of a chat system than anything else.
2015-09-30T04:19:30Z nydel: i'll work on making that clearer
2015-09-30T04:19:54Z nydel: the registry and chat are the biggest features of what i'm trying to do in many ways
2015-09-30T04:20:07Z White_Flame: Certainly there is convenience in bundling already-used utilities together, but doing it ad-hoc means you can use whatever facility is available, and it isn't tied to some all-encompassing single utility
2015-09-30T04:20:37Z White_Flame: I find voice chat MUCH more useful in coding, as you need your hands active
2015-09-30T04:21:11Z nydel: it's about making a world of lisp where you can log in nnot even knowing what you're gonna be working on. then stumbling around until you find a project that is fun and either solve it, help with it, or just watch depending on your level of skill / desire etc .. that's what's different from the connect-one-lisp-to-another things that are in place
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2015-09-30T04:21:48Z nydel: White_Flame: that's a helpful thought, i find the same thing.
2015-09-30T04:22:18Z White_Flame: I don't think that's how most open source developers find projects to work on
2015-09-30T04:22:37Z White_Flame: and lisp projects aren't just bound to a single running lisp image
2015-09-30T04:22:39Z nydel: me neither. in fact i have no idea how one would go about trying to do that.
2015-09-30T04:22:41Z White_Flame: especially when it comes to libraries
2015-09-30T04:23:12Z White_Flame: really, the project is the source code repository, not a running instance
2015-09-30T04:23:18Z nydel: the shared repl is just an aspect of the platform. it's necessary but not the whole point.
2015-09-30T04:23:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be interesting to have a Lisp interpreter that version controlled symbol bindings
2015-09-30T04:23:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: that way, you could just rollback your last change if it failed
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2015-09-30T04:24:12Z nydel: fiddlerwoaroof: it's going to be interesting to see how detailed version control can be when it's done with AI of a meticulous personality
2015-09-30T04:24:35Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, I've said often that the mutating mechanism of how Lisp source is loaded is something that I'd rather see be more declarative, undoing is certainly related
2015-09-30T04:24:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: FORTH has something like what I'm talking about
2015-09-30T04:25:16Z nydel: undoing as in restoring to the state of the repl before you just evaluated the last form?
2015-09-30T04:25:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like that
2015-09-30T04:25:29Z nydel: cool
2015-09-30T04:25:38Z nydel: definitely can't do that now in any lisp i know of
2015-09-30T04:26:03Z White_Flame: since any form can mutate anything, that's not all that feasible
2015-09-30T04:26:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: In forth, it's something like you can mark a roll-back point and then, later on issue a command to revert all bindings to the way they were at that point
2015-09-30T04:26:05Z nydel: i mean you could alt-p back through history or whatever and simulate undoing but it wouldn't be a true undo
2015-09-30T04:26:18Z White_Flame: being able to revert defun/defparameter/setf would be good, but custom setf handlers would also mung that up
2015-09-30T04:26:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: yeah, I'm sure there are significant implementation difficulties :)
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2015-09-30T04:26:45Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: if you set a variable in Forth, that mutates the stack, not just pops a new definition on
2015-09-30T04:27:02Z White_Flame: Lisp of course has this feature in dynamic bindings
2015-09-30T04:27:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I'm talking about the way the definitions work
2015-09-30T04:27:23Z White_Flame: but functions are not encapsulated that way
2015-09-30T04:27:38Z loke: White_Flame: Couldn't you just have multiple stacks in Forth?
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2015-09-30T04:27:54Z nydel: you don't necessarily need custom setf handlers or much anything like that if you have the appropriate version control and history filtered through the right AI ... if you have a state in which you like the repl, with muclr, you can just call back to that by timestamp and it will start from blank and do everything in order until it gets to that state
2015-09-30T04:27:58Z White_Flame: loke: you can have multiple dictionary stacks with tail-sharing in forth
2015-09-30T04:28:04Z nydel: again not true undoing but it's similar experientially
2015-09-30T04:28:42Z White_Flame: nydel: don't be so dependent on "the right AI", that breaks all implementability of your ideas
2015-09-30T04:28:48Z White_Flame: especially when you talk about its "personality"
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2015-09-30T04:29:47Z White_Flame: however, if a lisp implementation could modify its "save world and die" to "snapshot world and continue", that would be a tool to get some of these ideas going
2015-09-30T04:30:09Z nydel: it's nothing that fancy, just a very efficient parser that picks up on user patterns and notes opportunities for recumbancy. i use it on myself all the time and it often tells me what i'm going to do next.
2015-09-30T04:30:45Z nydel: that's good, snapshot-world-and-continue.. i like that
2015-09-30T04:30:50Z White_Flame: I would never use an AI that acts autonomously without full understanding, as part of my development environment
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2015-09-30T04:31:22Z nydel: i have to load it up and tell it to watch me then ask it what i'm doing, it doesn't just act.
2015-09-30T04:32:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: are you familiar with the way dictionaries work in Forth?
2015-09-30T04:32:11Z White_Flame: yes
2015-09-30T04:32:14Z nydel: have you seen any attempts at a snapshot world and continue type of thing?
2015-09-30T04:32:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's what I'm talking about, just version controlling the definitions rather than the interpreter state
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2015-09-30T04:34:03Z White_Flame: right, that would actually not be hard to do with a replacement defun from "user space"
2015-09-30T04:34:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but it would be nice to extend it so that the lisp image itself could be the VCS
2015-09-30T04:34:47Z White_Flame: not really, because it can be corrupted
2015-09-30T04:34:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you might have a (commit-definitions) function that would mash all the changes since the last commit together
2015-09-30T04:35:05Z White_Flame: also, consider (let (..) (defun ..)) closures
2015-09-30T04:35:21Z White_Flame: where the closed data gets corrupted
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2015-09-30T04:36:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe the lisp image could be segmented into a "definitions" segment and a "data" segment and only the former be persisted?
2015-09-30T04:37:08Z White_Flame: that all goes back to the mutability of the image
2015-09-30T04:37:21Z White_Flame: toplevel forms don't provide declartions, they mutate the image's state
2015-09-30T04:37:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: defparameter, et al. would push stuff into the data segment while defun/defmacro would push new definitions into the dictionary
2015-09-30T04:38:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm not sure how to overcome all the data consistency issues :)
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2015-09-30T04:46:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Don't journalling filesystems and transactional DBs already implement alot of the necessary bits?
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2015-09-30T04:47:36Z White_Flame: sure, they encompass all changes to data
2015-09-30T04:47:48Z White_Flame: they're also high overhead for fast-changing stuff
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2015-09-30T04:48:19Z White_Flame: actually, I wouldn't say that either support historical undo
2015-09-30T04:48:23Z White_Flame: only redo of stuff in flight
2015-09-30T04:48:33Z White_Flame: or undo of stuff immediately in flight
2015-09-30T04:48:49Z White_Flame: DBs of course can hang on to an older snapshot of data while transactions are open
2015-09-30T04:49:00Z White_Flame: so it's not quite the same
2015-09-30T04:51:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, all you really need is to make all memory access copy on write
2015-09-30T04:51:27Z White_Flame: and how fast would you run out of memory if you did that? :)
2015-09-30T04:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2015-09-30T04:52:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Depends on how much memory you have
2015-09-30T04:52:38Z White_Flame: My work goes more into languages being declarative, and presenting dependent truth-maintained results, constraining the side effects to particular boundaries
2015-09-30T04:53:17Z White_Flame: so if you change things, there's a ripple effect, and the side effect boundaries is where historical record can be logged
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2015-09-30T04:56:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my main interest is making Lisp / VCS integration more natural
2015-09-30T04:57:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: The way I tend to develop applications in Lisp, testing things in the REPL running the app, it's a bit awkward to figure out when to commit
2015-09-30T04:57:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the Git history is a bit less useful than it is for other languages.
2015-09-30T04:58:02Z White_Flame: use branches, commit often
2015-09-30T04:58:22Z White_Flame: merge compacting the changes into a single commit
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2015-09-30T04:58:32Z White_Flame: at least, that's the ideal that I often forget to do when code-exploring, too :-P
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2015-09-30T05:00:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you just saved a log of user-submitted forms, that would help a bit
2015-09-30T05:03:00Z White_Flame: to me, it's always crucially important that your code starts from a clean repl, loading your source code.  That which is submitted via the repl is ephemeral
2015-09-30T05:03:07Z White_Flame: s/clean repl/clean image/
2015-09-30T05:03:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I agree with that
2015-09-30T05:04:02Z White_Flame: as such, I tend to write my code in source buffers, not as attempts at defun'ing things at the repl
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2015-09-30T05:04:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm mostly talking about saving things evaluated from the source buffers I guess
2015-09-30T05:05:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: The editors undo history, though might be all that's really necessary, especially if it stores a tree
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2015-09-30T05:17:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: How do I get sbcl to change it's working directory?
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2015-09-30T05:19:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: That doesn't seem to affect LOAD
2015-09-30T05:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: or TRUENAME, for that matter
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2015-09-30T05:21:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I think I have to set *default-pathname-defaults*
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2015-09-30T05:32:29Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Correct.
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2015-09-30T05:53:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to unbind a clos slot?
2015-09-30T05:54:12Z Bike: slot-makunbound, i think
2015-09-30T05:54:23Z Bike: pretty sure i've never used it.
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2015-09-30T05:54:55Z beach: mop s-m-u-c
2015-09-30T05:54:55Z specbot: slot-makunbound-using-class: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-makunbound-using-class.html
2015-09-30T05:55:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
2015-09-30T05:55:43Z beach: There is supposed to be a page for slot-makunbound as well, but I must have missed it somehow.
2015-09-30T05:56:18Z beach: Ah.
2015-09-30T05:56:22Z beach: clhs slot-makunbound
2015-09-30T05:56:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_ma.htm
2015-09-30T05:56:31Z beach: It's not in the MOP.
2015-09-30T05:56:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Postmodern's DAO objects treat nil slots differently from unbound ones
2015-09-30T05:57:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: it makes sense, it's just slightly inconvenient at the moment :)
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2015-09-30T06:03:09Z beach: I fixed the link on that MOP page.
2015-09-30T06:03:20Z beach: Now it links to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2015-09-30T06:04:22Z beach: Since I am at it, I have added a few more pages to this site: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/table-of-contents.html in the past few days.
2015-09-30T06:05:00Z beach: The root page is this one: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
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2015-09-30T06:43:08Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-09-30T07:23:30Z snv1: Most open source code no more useful than a program describing the color of your aura.
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2015-09-30T07:23:45Z intel: How do I load quick-lisp?
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2015-09-30T07:25:29Z H4ns: intel: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-09-30T08:38:19Z pjb: DeadTrickster: readtable-case does indeed influence printing.
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2015-09-30T09:13:03Z DeadTrickster: pjb, :-)
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2015-09-30T09:45:26Z Devon: Is there a way to snarf #define constants from a .h file without downloading, patching and recompiling gcc?
2015-09-30T09:46:28Z fe[nl]ix: Devon: I think clang can do that
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2015-09-30T09:46:57Z pjb: Devon: there's com.informatimago.languages.cpp
2015-09-30T09:48:19Z pjb: Devon: and of course, there is cffi-grovel.
2015-09-30T09:48:27Z pjb: (but I don't know how it works).
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2015-09-30T09:52:17Z DeadTrickster: when structure redefined at runtime all accessors/setters become broken? or depends on implementation and whether layout changed or not?
2015-09-30T09:53:36Z pjb: Yes; nasal daemons.
2015-09-30T09:54:16Z pjb: DeadTrickster: the thing is that structure accessors and setters can be inlined.  So if you redefine a structure, you have to recompile all the code that depends on it.
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2015-09-30T09:58:23Z Devon: What a mess!  I might as well write my own.
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2015-09-30T10:11:18Z splittist: Devon: it does look like pjb has done most of the work for you. Can't you just throw his cpp at the file then go through the environment looking for macro-definition/object objects?
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2015-09-30T10:13:19Z loke: cffi-grovel is quite useful. I use it a lot
2015-09-30T10:13:26Z Devon: If I could *find* it I'd try it!
2015-09-30T10:13:48Z loke: Devon: and pbj's cpp is available on QL
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2015-09-30T10:16:32Z Devon: Well hidden.
2015-09-30T10:16:47Z loke: Devon: did you even type (ql:system-apropos "cpp")
2015-09-30T10:16:48Z loke: ?
2015-09-30T10:17:47Z splittist: or even google com.informatimago.languages.cpp ? This latter gets me to the gitlab repo.
2015-09-30T10:18:04Z Devon: Nice if you already know what to look for.
2015-09-30T10:19:10Z loke: Devon: pjb just told you above
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2015-09-30T10:23:19Z Cymew: To Devon's defense, I know I've looked at com.informatimago.<foo> before and not understood it was a lisp system, since it looks like a domain name, and thus you're fooled into go hunting for a site instead.
2015-09-30T10:24:08Z Cymew: I know it's std behaviour to name things like that in come circles, but I've grown fond of it.
2015-09-30T10:24:29Z Cymew: But, pjb do produce some good stuff, when you realize what it is!
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2015-09-30T10:24:51Z Shinmera: And if you can bear the license.
2015-09-30T10:25:11Z Cymew: "not grown fond" was what I meant.
2015-09-30T10:25:31Z Cymew: Shinmera: Yeah, you should always check the licence.
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2015-09-30T10:49:16Z loke: DeadTrickster: It's better just to use CLOS unless you are writing _really_ performance-intensive code.
2015-09-30T10:50:55Z DeadTrickster: loke, I can't use clos unfortunately since standard-objects can't be compared using equalp
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2015-09-30T10:51:48Z loke: DeadTrickster: Why do you need them to be comparable using equalp? (equalp is an almost useless function anyway since it does case-insignificant character comparisons)
2015-09-30T10:53:21Z DeadTrickster: loke, actually equal :-)
2015-09-30T10:53:30Z loke: DeadTrickster: Fair enough.
2015-09-30T10:53:32Z DeadTrickster: type, sorry for confusion
2015-09-30T10:53:39Z loke: DeadTrickster: But the question remains, why do you need that?
2015-09-30T10:54:15Z DeadTrickster: because I want to compare structured, normalized stuff
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2015-09-30T10:55:09Z loke: DeadTrickster: But you can write a function to do that. You can even make it general, bby applying just a little bit of MOP magic.
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2015-09-30T10:55:37Z DeadTrickster: loke, I also want to use these objects as hashtable keys )
2015-09-30T10:56:10Z loke: DeadTrickster: That problem is solved by using a different hashtable implementation.
2015-09-30T10:57:10Z loke: In every case where I have considered using structs, I changed by mind and went back to classes.
2015-09-30T10:57:39Z DeadTrickster: loke, I love structs they are very fast
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2015-09-30T10:57:53Z DeadTrickster: probably because I love C
2015-09-30T10:58:06Z Shinmera: Oh dear.
2015-09-30T10:58:13Z DeadTrickster: yeah
2015-09-30T10:58:15Z loke: DeadTrickster: Sure they are, which is why I wqualified by original statement with that exception. However, I have never actually needed the speed of structs.
2015-09-30T10:59:07Z DeadTrickster: loke, me too just nice to have them around
2015-09-30T10:59:28Z DeadTrickster: for example what if I just need point type
2015-09-30T10:59:29Z loke: Even in my red-black-tree implementation, I discovered that switching the nodes to structs only gave a percent or so performance improvement even when doiung random operations on trees of millions of elements.
2015-09-30T10:59:31Z DeadTrickster: x and y
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2015-09-30T10:59:50Z DeadTrickster: it is simple structure :-)
2015-09-30T10:59:52Z loke: DeadTrickster: I still use classes for that. No reason no to.
2015-09-30T11:00:21Z DeadTrickster: what implementation you are using? sbcl?
2015-09-30T11:00:28Z loke: (as was my red-black nodes, (by red-black nodes has 5 fields)
2015-09-30T11:00:50Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp#L5
2015-09-30T11:01:20Z DeadTrickster: loke, btw could you please tell more on your cl-rabbit use-case
2015-09-30T11:01:32Z loke: DeadTrickster: What do you mean?
2015-09-30T11:01:44Z DeadTrickster: how you are using it
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2015-09-30T11:02:44Z loke: DeadTrickster: In a team-chat application. The source code will be released shortly (we're behind on the release but it's really not more than a couple of weeks away now). RabbitMQ is used for all messages between the nodes.
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2015-09-30T11:03:02Z DeadTrickster: Ah that chat
2015-09-30T11:03:07Z DeadTrickster: potato
2015-09-30T11:03:13Z loke: If you want to try the application itself, it's here. But the source is, as I mentioned, not yet available. http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2015-09-30T11:03:43Z loke: I've started writing a blog about its implementation. First post here: http://blog.potato.network/
2015-09-30T11:04:23Z DeadTrickster: "I wrote an asynchronous library, cl-rabbit-async whic sits on top of cl-rabbit,"
2015-09-30T11:04:27Z DeadTrickster: which
2015-09-30T11:04:34Z loke: Yeah yeah. :-)  I'll fix that.
2015-09-30T11:05:10Z loke: Fixed
2015-09-30T11:05:11Z DeadTrickster: why not redis for sessions?
2015-09-30T11:05:21Z DeadTrickster: we are using it - works good
2015-09-30T11:05:22Z loke: DeadTrickster: Why redis for session?
2015-09-30T11:05:32Z loke: Memcached for that purpose works fine too
2015-09-30T11:05:35Z DeadTrickster: yea
2015-09-30T11:05:55Z DeadTrickster: I just thought you have particular reason for this choice
2015-09-30T11:06:39Z loke: well, the reason is simply that we're already using CouchDB for persistent storage, and memcached for general caching. No reason to introduce yet another component just to store sessions.
2015-09-30T11:07:12Z DeadTrickster: tell me more about caching
2015-09-30T11:07:20Z DeadTrickster: what you actually store in the cache?
2015-09-30T11:07:32Z loke: DeadTrickster: Stuff. :-)
2015-09-30T11:07:34Z DeadTrickster: is it shared between Lisp instances?
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2015-09-30T11:08:05Z loke: DeadTrickster: The persistence layer I wrote on top of CouchDB makes the caching mostly transparent, so I cach more than I really need to.
2015-09-30T11:08:32Z loke: The layer is implemented as a CLOS metaclass, so I define couchdb document objects like this:
2015-09-30T11:08:44Z DeadTrickster: does it really speed things up?
2015-09-30T11:08:54Z DeadTrickster: or you implemented just in case
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2015-09-30T11:09:33Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156002
2015-09-30T11:09:57Z loke: It does speed things up. A lot. Not because couchdb is slow, but because memcached is ridiculously fast.
2015-09-30T11:10:12Z loke: Note the second-to-last row in the example I pasted
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2015-09-30T11:10:42Z DeadTrickster: ping-delay?
2015-09-30T11:10:46Z loke: On the individual slots, you have the :persisted-... keywords to control the persistency behaviour
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2015-09-30T11:10:58Z loke: DeadTrickster: Yes?
2015-09-30T11:11:06Z DeadTrickster: oh shit row not slot
2015-09-30T11:11:07Z loke: Poor name, perhaps.
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2015-09-30T11:11:31Z DeadTrickster: :memcached-enabled-p
2015-09-30T11:11:39Z DeadTrickster: yes I see this
2015-09-30T11:12:23Z loke: That's all one really have to do. The only thing to keep in mind is to flush the cache if you change the objects outside the persistence API (for example, when using CouchDB updated functions)
2015-09-30T11:12:31Z loke: There is a call to do that
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2015-09-30T11:13:20Z DeadTrickster: btw what http server you are using?
2015-09-30T11:13:29Z loke: DeadTrickster: Hunchentoot
2015-09-30T11:13:47Z loke: With haproxy and ngnix in front of it
2015-09-30T11:13:51Z DeadTrickster: and long pooling or what?
2015-09-30T11:14:02Z loke: (well, not in my example deployment. It's hunchentoot directly)
2015-09-30T11:14:19Z loke: DeadTrickster: HTML5 EventSource. Although I have a long-poll implementation too.
2015-09-30T11:15:22Z DeadTrickster: why not websockets?
2015-09-30T11:15:33Z loke: DeadTrickster: Why websockets?
2015-09-30T11:15:41Z DeadTrickster: latency?
2015-09-30T11:16:04Z loke: DeadTrickster: I have no latency issues.
2015-09-30T11:16:40Z DeadTrickster: wait wait
2015-09-30T11:16:49Z loke: Or rather, I have not measured any percivable latency. I'm not doing a multiplayer shooter :-)
2015-09-30T11:16:55Z DeadTrickster: it is unidirection stream right?
2015-09-30T11:16:59Z DeadTrickster: from server to client
2015-09-30T11:17:02Z loke: Yeah.
2015-09-30T11:17:06Z DeadTrickster: how you post message then?
2015-09-30T11:17:14Z loke: Messages from client to server are using plain HTTP POST
2015-09-30T11:17:18Z DeadTrickster: yeah
2015-09-30T11:17:20Z DeadTrickster: latency
2015-09-30T11:17:50Z loke: What do you mean?
2015-09-30T11:18:19Z DeadTrickster: you know browser have to negotiate new tcp connection probably
2015-09-30T11:18:25Z DeadTrickster: and shit
2015-09-30T11:18:59Z loke: DeadTrickster: Well, generally it's a persistent connection though
2015-09-30T11:19:30Z DeadTrickster: how so? if you send from client to server using just post?
2015-09-30T11:20:09Z loke: DeadTrickster: Yes. Since HTTP/1.1 there is something called HTTP persistent connections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_persistent_connection
2015-09-30T11:21:08Z DeadTrickster: :-)
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2015-09-30T11:21:55Z loke: DeadTrickster: The main problem with EventSource is not because of that though. It's virus-scanning firewalls.
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2015-09-30T11:22:22Z loke: The have a tendency to buffer EventSource connections (in violation of the HTTP protocol, mind you)
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2015-09-30T11:22:44Z loke: Both Bluecoat and the Macaffee proxies tdo that shit
2015-09-30T11:22:56Z DeadTrickster: ha sometimes cell carriers even tend to inject ads
2015-09-30T11:23:00Z DeadTrickster: at least here
2015-09-30T11:23:01Z loke: I can solve it by using long-poll instead. Or, I presume, websocket.
2015-09-30T11:23:13Z loke: DeadTrickster: Well the ad part is solvable using HTTPS
2015-09-30T11:24:24Z DeadTrickster: year iff they not trying to substitute certificates but this is different sad story
2015-09-30T11:24:33Z loke: But frankly, I don't give a flying fuck about rogue ISP's. That's the benefit of not running a public web site. If someone wants to use our software and support these crappy ISP's then good for them. Patches welcome.
2015-09-30T11:25:06Z DeadTrickster: can't wait to see your code
2015-09-30T11:25:09Z DeadTrickster: :-)
2015-09-30T11:25:24Z loke: Well, you can see much of my code on github already :-)
2015-09-30T11:25:32Z DeadTrickster: I'm diving deeper into rabbitmq-c and cl-rabbit too now
2015-09-30T11:25:35Z loke: This is just 11k lines of as-yet not shown code :-)
2015-09-30T11:25:44Z DeadTrickster: rabbitmq-c is surprisingly shitty (
2015-09-30T11:26:00Z loke: DeadTrickster: I didn't spend much time looking at its implementation
2015-09-30T11:26:15Z loke: It does its job well enough
2015-09-30T11:26:33Z DeadTrickster: not if you want to integrate it with existing poll loop
2015-09-30T11:26:38Z DeadTrickster: it just blocks
2015-09-30T11:27:12Z loke: DeadTrickster: I can paste the entire file that handles the EventSoruce stuff if you're interested. It has lots of cl-rabbit-async logic
2015-09-30T11:27:37Z loke: DeadTrickster: It's a bit of a mess though, since there is also all the code to handle long-poll, which is not actually used at the moment and doesn't work fully right now.
2015-09-30T11:28:32Z DeadTrickster: yep do it -)
2015-09-30T11:28:37Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156005
2015-09-30T11:29:33Z DeadTrickster: cool I have to go now I get back to it later and ask more questions if you don't mind )
2015-09-30T11:29:39Z loke: DeadTrickster: It's possibly the hairiest part of the entire application. The rest is fairly strightforward. :-)
2015-09-30T11:29:51Z loke: Yeah, I have to go too. Back in a couple of hours probably.
2015-09-30T11:31:12Z loke: I accidentally set an expiry
2015-09-30T11:31:16Z loke: here's a non-expiring version:
2015-09-30T11:31:17Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156007
2015-09-30T11:32:46Z pjb: Cymew: the licenses only really matter when you want to distribute the software or a derived work of it.
2015-09-30T11:33:02Z pjb: at least the free software licenses.
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2015-09-30T11:36:03Z pjb: (alexandria:define-constant +crlf+ (format nil "~c~c" #\Return #\Newline) :test 'equal) is not conforming.
2015-09-30T11:36:03Z pjb:  
2015-09-30T11:36:36Z pjb: #\newline can be #\return #\linefeed or something else, depending on the implementation.
2015-09-30T11:37:38Z pjb: if you use CR-LF, then you're using the ASCII code.  then either your implementation supports ASCII external formats, and then assumedly, you can use (format nil "~C~C" (code-char 13) (code-char 10)), or it doesn't and you should better work with binary streams of octets. and just use #(13 10).
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2015-09-30T11:38:49Z Cymew: pjb: True. I have actually not checked what licence you usually use.
2015-09-30T11:39:02Z pjb: AGPL3 in general.
2015-09-30T11:39:34Z pjb: The point being that if you use it at development time, without distributing it or a derived work, then you're good.
2015-09-30T11:40:38Z pjb: One could argue that this is a defect of the GPL, that it doesn't discriminate the users in this situation (one could want to distriminate humans from corporations or political entities for example).
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2015-09-30T12:31:52Z loke`````: re
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2015-09-30T13:33:20Z Shinmera: Does anyone know of a library for getting at the CPU and RAM usage (hopefully portably)?
2015-09-30T13:34:45Z dlowe: haha. portably.
2015-09-30T13:35:08Z Shinmera: Well, "portably".
2015-09-30T13:35:31Z Shinmera: I'm mostly interested in Linux, OS X, Windows.
2015-09-30T13:35:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there even a standard Unix interface for that?
2015-09-30T13:35:41Z newcup: pjb: I toyed around with your cpp parser. Seems that multi-line macros aren't yet handled. I was just wondering if that's on your roadmap already
2015-09-30T13:36:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Linux Solaris and OSX all seem to be completely different for that
2015-09-30T13:36:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess, on Solaris and OSX, you could hook into DTrace . . .
2015-09-30T13:36:38Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Which is why I don't particularly feel like writing a library.
2015-09-30T13:36:56Z dlowe: for linux, it's probably easiest to just read /proc
2015-09-30T13:37:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispy dtrace, hmm
2015-09-30T13:38:07Z dlowe: Shinmera: you may be able to get some use out of getrusage in POSIX
2015-09-30T13:38:38Z Shinmera: Hrm. Either way, I guess these answers mean there isn't a premade library. I'll see what I can do.
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2015-09-30T13:42:34Z splittist: sparklines for slime? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml6Dp3F4Inc
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2015-09-30T13:47:30Z rpg has a problem he should probably be able to figure out...
2015-09-30T13:48:12Z rpg: I have two lists of s-expressions.  These two lists of s-expressions fail a TREE-EQUAL test.  But if I compare the lists pairwise using EQUALP, they all match.
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2015-09-30T13:48:39Z dlowe: rpg: got any strings in your expressions?
2015-09-30T13:48:43Z dlowe: they might differ in case
2015-09-30T13:48:50Z rpg: There are no arrays in these lists, or strings, but there are double floats.
2015-09-30T13:49:38Z dlowe: What if you specify #'equalp as the :test in tree-equal?
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2015-09-30T13:50:01Z splittist: is this tree-equal with :test #'equalp ?
2015-09-30T13:50:26Z oGMo: yeah because sbcl says it defaults to eql
2015-09-30T13:50:28Z dlowe: Have you tried :test #'equalp with the TREE-EQUAL functioN?
2015-09-30T13:50:40Z dlowe: It always defaults to EQL unless otherwise specified
2015-09-30T13:50:42Z oGMo: and it defaults as such due to non-specification in clhs, iirc
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2015-09-30T13:50:48Z dlowe: No, it's explicit
2015-09-30T13:51:12Z rpg: splittist:  No. It fails that test.
2015-09-30T13:51:27Z rpg: I.e., yes I am using TREE-EQUAL...'equalp
2015-09-30T13:51:32Z dlowe: oGMo: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/17_ba.htm
2015-09-30T13:51:39Z splittist: (:
2015-09-30T13:52:41Z oGMo: dlowe: ah
2015-09-30T13:53:02Z pjb: newcup: multiline macros should be handled.  You get a value that is on a single line, with the \\ \n removed.
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2015-09-30T13:53:32Z pjb: newcup: the cpp is complete AFAIK; I started working on the C parser.
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2015-09-30T13:54:02Z dlowe: rpg: I'm out of ideas. Is there a small subset of the problem you can share?
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2015-09-30T13:54:47Z rpg: dlowe: Not sure how -- it arises in a test where what seem like matching stored and computed values fail TREE-EQUAL.  I'm not sure I can replicate this in something one can load....
2015-09-30T13:55:11Z dlowe: trace TREE-EQUAL and see what the arguments to it are
2015-09-30T13:55:41Z pjb: newcup: of course, I'd take gladly any test file demonstrating a problem.
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2015-09-30T13:56:37Z pjb: newcup: the on caveat when using this cpp to process system headers is that you may have to provide some pre-defined system macros. Notably in the case of GNU C headers, you may have to provide macros for the builtin operators, if your headers use them.
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2015-09-30T13:57:03Z pjb: (or else, you avoid defining __GNU__ etc, and the header should default to other definitions).
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2015-09-30T13:57:41Z rpg: dlowe: I'm defining MY-TREE-EQUAL that will raise an error on mismatch.  Hoping this will help.
2015-09-30T13:57:53Z rpg: Maybe something odd with the double-floats?
2015-09-30T13:58:58Z newcup: pjb: right. I'll try to butcher one of these failing files to make a minimal sample. Also, is the current quicklisp version the one that's complete?
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2015-09-30T14:00:09Z pjb: Shinmera: perhaps you can use the com.informatimago.clmisc.resource-utilization package in the com.informatimago.clmisc system.
2015-09-30T14:00:34Z Shinmera: I can't.
2015-09-30T14:00:56Z pjb: newcup: No, quicklisp is frozen for now.  Try to get the one on the master brank on github or gitlab (they're mirrors).
2015-09-30T14:01:19Z rpg: OK, I should have realized this -- one list is longer than the other.  Yeesh.
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2015-09-30T14:02:46Z pjb: Shinmera: why? http://paste.lisp.org/+3CDN
2015-09-30T14:02:53Z Shinmera: Because of your license.
2015-09-30T14:03:01Z pjb: ok.
2015-09-30T14:03:06Z dlowe: rpg: haha. mystery solved!
2015-09-30T14:03:12Z pjb: You may try to negociate a commercial license.
2015-09-30T14:03:20Z Shinmera: Not interested.
2015-09-30T14:03:23Z rpg:  yes, I need to can this comparison.
2015-09-30T14:03:36Z pjb: Shinmera: hint: rent + utilities + monthly food is about 1500 euro.
2015-09-30T14:04:01Z Shinmera: pjb: You can do whatever you want with your code, but you can't get me to use it either.
2015-09-30T14:04:14Z pjb: Of course.
2015-09-30T14:04:34Z newcup: pjb: ok. with this version, I got it narrowed down to EOL character sequence. "\\\r\n" raises a condition. "\\\n" does not
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2015-09-30T14:04:53Z pjb: Shinmera: But since the taxman and the landlord are banging at my door, I cannot you have my code for gratis.
2015-09-30T14:05:08Z newcup: pjb: this version = one in quicklisp
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2015-09-30T14:07:09Z pjb: newcup: you need to configure the external-format you want in the context.
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2015-09-30T14:07:46Z pjb: in the options of the context actually.
2015-09-30T14:07:47Z pjb: (option *context* :external-format)
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2015-09-30T14:09:57Z Cymew: pjb: Where do you live? Sounds like you have a high rent payment.
2015-09-30T14:10:10Z pjb: Cymew: 400 m from Paris.
2015-09-30T14:10:21Z Cymew: Sounds expensive...
2015-09-30T14:10:24Z pjb: It is.
2015-09-30T14:11:06Z Cymew: ...not that my rent is cheap relative my income either, even if I probably pay less.
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2015-09-30T14:13:15Z pjb: newcup: you can use: :options (acons :external-format (com.informatimago.clext.character-sets:make-external-format :utf-8 :dos) *default-options*)
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2015-09-30T14:16:00Z newcup: pjb: ah, ok! that eluded me, I thought :default for ccl on windows uses windows line termination but it's :unix
2015-09-30T14:16:51Z newcup: pjb: using correct external format solves the multi-line macro problem
2015-09-30T14:18:01Z oleo: helloo
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2015-09-30T14:39:29Z DeadTrickster: loke, hey what that paste code does again?
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2015-09-30T14:41:45Z loke`````: http://paste.lisp.org/display/156007
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2015-09-30T14:54:15Z pjb: loke`````: your cleanup-name is plain wrong. You should use alphanumericp instead.
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2015-09-30T14:56:24Z Shinmera: Which things are alphanumericp is implementation-dependant.
2015-09-30T14:56:37Z loke`````: pjb: But it's not a -p function
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2015-09-30T14:57:12Z loke`````: pjb: It converts the name into something that is guarnateed to work as a RabbitMQ channel name
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2015-09-30T14:57:20Z pjb: Shinmera: which code char-code implements is also implementation dependant.
2015-09-30T14:57:25Z pjb: much more so than alphanumericp.
2015-09-30T14:57:45Z loke`````: sorry, a RabbitMQ topic selector
2015-09-30T14:57:49Z pjb: If you want exactly the set of standard characters, then you should put them in a string and find them there.
2015-09-30T14:58:30Z loke`````: pjb: No. I want exactly those characters and none other.
2015-09-30T14:58:45Z Shinmera: pjb: I'm aware. Ime alphanumericp is almost never what you want.
2015-09-30T14:58:46Z loke`````: Especially, . # and * are illegal
2015-09-30T14:59:25Z pjb: loke`````: you lose when ± } and \  are in the middle of letters.
2015-09-30T14:59:36Z splittist: loke`````: that's what he's saying - make a string of RabbitMQ topic selector name valid characters and use FIND across that, as you do for the random punctuation.
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2015-09-30T15:00:45Z loke`````: I will be happy to accept patches once the source is fully released (soon)
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2015-09-30T15:02:13Z splittist: (-:
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2015-09-30T15:04:45Z loke`````: pjb: What do you mean by "lose when ..."?
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2015-09-30T15:06:49Z pjb: (< (char-code #\A) (char-code #\}) (char-code #\Z)) can be true.
2015-09-30T15:07:16Z pjb: check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC
2015-09-30T15:07:41Z loke`````: pjb: Ahh. I get it now
2015-09-30T15:08:10Z loke`````: pjb: I will take your advice into consideration and update my code once I'm sover
2015-09-30T15:08:11Z pjb: and other variations are possible, nothing says anything about code-char and char-code, apart basically that there's a bijection between characters and some subset of `(integer 0 ,(1- char-code-limit)).
2015-09-30T15:08:12Z loke`````: I mean sober
2015-09-30T15:08:52Z loke`````: I've just had a few beers, so now is not the right time :-)
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2015-09-30T15:11:42Z Fare: in practice, though, I haven't heard of any EBCDIC lisp. None that exists now, and possibly none ever.
2015-09-30T15:11:53Z pjb: loke`````: there's even an UTF-EBCDIC! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
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2015-09-30T15:13:50Z Xach: opengenera is an issue
2015-09-30T15:16:23Z loke`````: What kind of issue?
2015-09-30T15:16:55Z rme: Characters on Genera are a bit diffierent.
2015-09-30T15:18:37Z Fare: opengenera is no Unicode, but still ASCII
2015-09-30T15:19:09Z Fare: IIRC
2015-09-30T15:19:48Z loke`````: My codebase has at least one more case of that.
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2015-09-30T19:14:13Z Shinmera: My latest side-project is shaping up. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/649296435494653952
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2015-09-30T19:14:30Z Shinmera: Hopefully I'll soon be able to deploy it to help in the Clasp testing process.
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2015-09-30T19:15:03Z Xach: Works great on Windows?
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2015-09-30T19:15:18Z Shinmera: Clasp doesn't build on Windows, so it's not one of my concerns yeet.
2015-09-30T19:15:19Z Shinmera: *yet
2015-09-30T19:15:34Z Shinmera: I've massively overblown the intended scale of the project already, so that'll have to wait for some other time.
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2015-09-30T19:18:45Z mrottenkolber: Hey all
2015-09-30T19:19:06Z Shinmera: Xach: Would you be interested in it working on Windows?
2015-09-30T19:19:32Z Xach: Shinmera: I'm working on a build management project, but it has specific needs that probably don't overlap with yours.
2015-09-30T19:19:34Z mrottenkolber: CL does not have an “end of file predicate” for streams, does it? I can only think of read-char-no-hang as a poor substitute.
2015-09-30T19:20:06Z Shinmera: Xach: I've tried to keep things general, but it doesn't do anything that actually handles the build yet. You'd have to do that yourself.
2015-09-30T19:20:23Z rme: Is stream-eofp standard CL?
2015-09-30T19:20:33Z Shinmera: Xach: All it does so far is keep track of cloning the repo for each commit and launching a specific build task, and polling it for new updates.
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2015-09-30T19:20:41Z mrottenkolber: rme: nope
2015-09-30T19:20:44Z dim: mrottenkolber: maybe compare file-length and file-position?
2015-09-30T19:20:57Z mrottenkolber: dim: not reading files.
2015-09-30T19:21:07Z Fare: Shinmera, so you're also working on CLASP? What's the status?
2015-09-30T19:21:35Z mrottenkolber: rme: But CCL has it, works for me. Thanks.
2015-09-30T19:21:45Z Shinmera: Fare: We're hurrying for a release right now. It was planned to be this weekend, but things have gone a bit haywire, so it's probably going to be delayed by a week.
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2015-09-30T19:22:00Z dim: mrottenkolber: oh.
2015-09-30T19:22:28Z Shinmera: Fare: Otherwise, I've taken up the task of beating some organisation and structure into the project, so things should go a bit more smoothly for us regular folks with regard to building, filing bugs, and testing stuff.
2015-09-30T19:23:07Z dim: mrottenkolber: just handle the end-of-file condition then?
2015-09-30T19:23:10Z Shinmera: mrottenkolber: There's LISTEN
2015-09-30T19:23:29Z Shinmera: mrottenkolber: But it unfortunately doesn't have an extra return value for EOF.
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2015-09-30T19:24:12Z Fare: Shinmera, does ASDF work?
2015-09-30T19:24:24Z Fare: did you fill in the gaps in UIOP support?
2015-09-30T19:24:46Z Shinmera: Fare: It worked up until last weekend when things happened. Clasp doesn't build at all right now, but it should work again after that's overcome.
2015-09-30T19:24:49Z Fare: how much faster/slower than ECL is it?
2015-09-30T19:25:09Z Shinmera: I don't work on any code, so I don't know which gaps in UIOP still need filling.
2015-09-30T19:25:32Z Fare: a good start is to run the asdf test suite
2015-09-30T19:25:43Z Shinmera: And banchmarking can be done once the system works more stably again. Currently to my knowledge the main problem is some weird GC related stuff that's slowing the system down unnecessarily.
2015-09-30T19:26:00Z Shinmera: drmeister is talking with the Ravenbrook guys to sort it out though.
2015-09-30T19:27:06Z Shinmera: I uploaded a rather recent working copy of clasp if you want to try it out. https://mega.nz/#!VghwGapZ!RemGXYnCvKRX2KsHldfc_49lHEWNAVnsfbR_PS3nOf0
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2015-09-30T19:27:59Z Fare: oh, you're using the MPS ?
2015-09-30T19:28:18Z Shinmera: MPS is supposed to be the main GC for Clasp, yes.
2015-09-30T19:28:22Z Fare: I've pitched the MPS to Matthew Flatt who is considering a new GC for Racket.
2015-09-30T19:28:41Z Shinmera: Boehm is only used for testing and bootstrapping.
2015-09-30T19:29:23Z Shinmera: The uploaded zip contains both versions of clasp, though the MPS version will run /very very slowly/ due to the aforementioned GC issue.
2015-09-30T19:29:50Z Shinmera: *uploaded tar.xt
2015-09-30T19:29:52Z Shinmera: *xz
2015-09-30T19:29:56Z Shinmera: God my typing.
2015-09-30T19:31:20Z pyon: I've bought AMOP, and I'm trying to work my way through it. So I entered the definition of `standard-class` from page 18 into SBCL, and I get a SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR.
2015-09-30T19:32:09Z pyon: What's this mean?
2015-09-30T19:32:27Z Shinmera: It means SBCL is protecting you from possibly screwing up the system.
2015-09-30T19:32:55Z Shinmera: Or more specifically, you're trying to add/remove/change a definition from a package that is locked (CL) to prevent unintended changes to it.
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2015-09-30T19:33:32Z pyon: What are the consequences if I unlock the package? (One of the options presented.)
2015-09-30T19:33:45Z Shinmera: You will replace the class definition
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2015-09-30T19:33:54Z Shinmera: which might have disastrous consequences for the running system.
2015-09-30T19:34:20Z Shinmera: You should instead create a new package and explicitly shadow the symbols for which you are creating your own definitions.
2015-09-30T19:34:28Z pyon: Would it be a better idea if I add some prefix to all definitions (say, `amop-standard-class`) to avoid this kind of conflict?
2015-09-30T19:34:31Z pyon: Ah, okay.
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2015-09-30T19:35:27Z PuercoPop: or if you shadow the symbols you want to redefine in your package definition
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2015-09-30T23:06:07Z znpy: hey there! how do i lookup common lisp function documentation?
2015-09-30T23:06:15Z znpy: i would really appreciate something like the java api's javadoc or emacs' C-h f
2015-09-30T23:06:41Z znpy: any hints? suggestions ?
2015-09-30T23:06:49Z Xach: znpy: for cl functions, there are several hyperspec lookup tools
2015-09-30T23:07:01Z Xach: znpy: i use http://l1sp.org/ for it sometimes
2015-09-30T23:07:16Z Xach: and i have a browser thing setup for http://xach.com/clhs
2015-09-30T23:07:23Z Xach: so i can do "clhs car" and jump to the clhs docs.
2015-09-30T23:07:26Z znpy: Xach: hyperspec, you mean http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm ?
2015-09-30T23:07:42Z Xach: znpy: yes, but using things to jump exactly where I want to go.
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2015-09-30T23:08:07Z znpy: Xach: ah... i thought there was something better
2015-09-30T23:08:11Z znpy: it's quite ugly
2015-09-30T23:08:23Z Xach: It's skin deep. The info is good.
2015-09-30T23:08:33Z znpy: i mean, the java api javadoc is way more well organized
2015-09-30T23:08:39Z znpy: but okay
2015-09-30T23:09:10Z Xach: If you want to be efficient at CL, learning how to use the clhs is a good way.
2015-09-30T23:09:16Z Xach: a good piece, that is
2015-09-30T23:09:18Z znpy: btw thanks Xach :)
2015-09-30T23:09:22Z Xach: no problem
2015-09-30T23:09:45Z White_Flame: it is a very, very precise document, assuming you know the particular meanings of each term used, so it takes a while to learn how to really read it
2015-09-30T23:10:28Z White_Flame: there's also a bot in here for lookups while you're discussing:
2015-09-30T23:10:29Z White_Flame: clhs car
2015-09-30T23:10:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2015-09-30T23:10:40Z znpy: uhm
2015-09-30T23:10:41Z Xach: it's a mix of precision and readability.
2015-09-30T23:10:43Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: the quicklisp source for bordeaux-threads is no longer valid
2015-09-30T23:10:49Z fe[nl]ix: I do only github releases now
2015-09-30T23:10:50Z znpy: clhs remove-if-not
2015-09-30T23:10:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2015-09-30T23:11:02Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: What is the URL?
2015-09-30T23:11:41Z White_Flame: you can also /msg specbot <term>, so it doesn't spam the channel
2015-09-30T23:11:49Z White_Flame: erm, /msg specbot clhs <term>
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2015-09-30T23:12:10Z pillton: znpy: If you use Emacs, you can also type C-c C-d h on a symbol and have it take you to the hyperspec.
2015-09-30T23:13:19Z znpy: pillton: ah! exactly!
2015-09-30T23:14:02Z pillton: Emacs+SLIME that is.
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2015-09-30T23:22:24Z znpy: Xach: can I query you privately ?
2015-09-30T23:22:48Z XachX: Sure
2015-09-30T23:23:06Z znpy: Thanks
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2015-09-30T23:29:42Z katco: is there a standard for naming functions which get something simple (e.g. build a url)? is it typically get-foo? or just foo? or... ?
2015-09-30T23:30:26Z katco will be back for any answers later. going for an evening walk
2015-09-30T23:30:54Z White_Flame: I don't know about others, but I tend to use get-, as if it's just the name itself, I'd rather have that for full read/write accessors
2015-09-30T23:32:41Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: can't you just get the latest release from github ? there's an API for that
2015-09-30T23:32:47Z fe[nl]ix: the current tarball is https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/archive/v0.8.4.tar.gz
2015-09-30T23:32:54Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: Oh. I'll have to write some code for that.
2015-09-30T23:33:09Z Xach: I've been meaning to do so anyway.
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2015-09-30T23:37:02Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: Xach: why not use a release branch?
2015-09-30T23:37:32Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: you could develop in a dev branch, then merge to master the finished version
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2015-09-30T23:39:14Z antonv: Or develop in master, and merger finished code to "release" branch. If I understand right, QL can pick up code from a git branch.
2015-09-30T23:42:39Z PuercoPop: znpy: If you are already using slime you can do C-c C-d C-f on a symbol to look it up in the clhs.
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2015-09-30T23:43:32Z PuercoPop: An advantage of l1sp is that it queries more than the clhs.
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