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2015-08-01T00:02:44Z jasom: otwieracz: it's probably only faster since the C++ needs to convert to a lisp datatype, but I could be wrong
2015-08-01T00:03:03Z jasom: I would bet if you eliminate that overhead, the performance would be approximately the same
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2015-08-01T01:18:43Z drmeister: This is a fascinating paper.    (I tiny URL'd it)   http://tiny.cc/fe490x
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2015-08-01T01:19:10Z drmeister: It's one of the developers of R discussing how they are moving to Common Lisp as a new platform to replace R
2015-08-01T01:19:22Z drmeister: R is ~550 times slower than C
2015-08-01T01:19:47Z drmeister: That's about where clasp was up to a month ago.
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2015-08-01T01:20:45Z drmeister: There's a guy (Luke Tierney) who's been working on a compiler for R for several years.  He's managed improvements of 2 to 5.  Yikes.
2015-08-01T01:21:09Z akkad: lisp that much easier to optimize for?
2015-08-01T01:21:27Z drmeister: Certainly.  But it's amazing what other people spend their time doing.
2015-08-01T01:21:30Z akkad hunts for where to submit a patch for bordeaux threads
2015-08-01T01:21:48Z akkad: e.g. php->c++ compiler?
2015-08-01T01:22:16Z drmeister: Now that on the other hand is a productive way to spend time.
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2015-08-01T01:34:06Z warweasle: I'm trying to compile a 60M lisp file and my heap runs out. Is there a way to make a dynamic heap for a single compile?
2015-08-01T01:34:20Z warweasle: Oh, sbcl
2015-08-01T01:36:18Z drmeister: Is this a good way to use the Common Lisp restart/condition system?
2015-08-01T01:36:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cgzz5CKF/
2015-08-01T01:37:29Z drmeister: CHEM:MINIMIZE is a C++ function that does non-linear optimization.  It signals a Common Lisp condition called CHEM:MINIMIZER-ERROR if it runs into trouble.   I want it to recover by invoking the restart SKIP-REST-OF-MINIMIZATION
2015-08-01T01:38:25Z warweasle: figued it iout.
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2015-08-01T01:38:45Z scymtym: drmeister: the point of using restarts usually is to decouple possible strategies of handling error from the decision about which of the available strategies should be used
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2015-08-01T01:39:49Z drmeister: So I guess the restart-case is redundant?
2015-08-01T01:39:53Z scymtym: having both things in the same place make the restart mostly superfluous (assuming it is not used in some other way not visible in the example code)
2015-08-01T01:40:08Z drmeister: Superfluous - that's a better word.
2015-08-01T01:40:09Z Dasyatid1: drmeister: enh, for a simple case like that I'd just put the handling code in the handler itself and use return-from, but you start getting into restart territory when things get more complicated.
2015-08-01T01:41:23Z scymtym: drmeister: it is hard to say what is "right" in your system, but a common pattern is having the restart establish at point on the call stack and handling the error by invoking the restart a different point, usually further up the stack (i.e. where more global decision making is possible)
2015-08-01T01:41:56Z scymtym: i think pcl has good advice on the topic
2015-08-01T01:42:11Z drmeister: Oh, there is one other thing.  Sometimes I want to terminate the optimization with Control-C and it kicks me into SLDB - I'd like a restart that terminates the minimization and uses WRITE-INTERMEDIATE-RESULTS-TO-ENERGY-FUNCTION.
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2015-08-01T01:43:06Z drmeister: So there are three ways a MINIMIZE can end.  (1) normal return (2) a MINIMIZER-ERROR and (3) Control-C is hit and the user selects a RESTART.
2015-08-01T01:43:26Z drmeister: So maybe I do want both the RESTART-CASE and the HANDLER-CASE?
2015-08-01T01:43:42Z Dasyatid1: What would be more interesting and maybe more flexible later is if MINIMIZE itself _always_ established a restart, at a vague guess.
2015-08-01T01:43:43Z scymtym: if you want that to always happen, you could just use UNWIND-PROTECT
2015-08-01T01:43:44Z pjb: drmeister: your restart-case would be visible in case another error is signaled. Without handler, the debugger would be entered, and the user could invoke your restart interactively.  Therefore it is not redundant.
2015-08-01T01:44:29Z drmeister: Dasyatid1: Well, MINIMIZE is written in C++ and establishing restarts within C++ code is something I haven't implemented or considered yet.
2015-08-01T01:44:30Z Dasyatid1: That is, if the restart should have a behavior that could vary along with the implementation of MINIMIZE, rather than being specified by the caller, but whether and when to _use_ that behavior should be specified by the caller.
2015-08-01T01:44:30Z pjb: And indeed, C-c, so you definitely want it.
2015-08-01T01:45:29Z Dasyatid1: Right, so in that case you'd have the "underlying"/"low-level" function be the C++ function and then have a wrapper function be the "canonical" one that always does a restart-case.
2015-08-01T01:45:32Z drmeister: scymtym: I don't want it always to happen, it happens in the normal return so UNWIND-PROTECT would make it happen twice.  That's ok but inefficient.
2015-08-01T01:46:10Z drmeister: I'm not trying to argue, this is an interesting discussion and I'm learning a lot quickly about error handlers and restarts.
2015-08-01T01:46:41Z scymtym: drmeister: no, you're right, UWP really is unsuitable then
2015-08-01T01:47:28Z drmeister: Ok, I think the code above more or less fits my needs.
2015-08-01T01:47:35Z drmeister: Thanks everyone.
2015-08-01T01:48:01Z drmeister: I changed it a little based on the discussion.
2015-08-01T01:48:06Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YI0dPpB9/
2015-08-01T01:49:35Z Dasyatid1: The restart-bind isn't useful in this version unless something else can trigger it.
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2015-08-01T01:49:57Z pjb: drmeister: the difference is now that if the inner code install a restart of the same name it won't have a chance to be invoked, since you just return-from in the error handler.
2015-08-01T01:50:23Z pjb: Dasyatid1: there may be other ways to invoke the debugger, including C-c.
2015-08-01T01:50:30Z drmeister: Dasyatid1:  Occasionally I hit C-c and that invokes SLDB and provides SKIP-REST-OF-MINIMIZATION as a restart option.  Then I trigger it manually.
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2015-08-01T01:51:11Z pjb: drmeister: notice that if inner code installs a restart named SKIP-REST-OF-MINIMIZATION, you will have several such restarts listed by sldb (and other debuggers).
2015-08-01T01:51:58Z Dasyatid1: Oh, right.  Hmm.  In that case I'd tend to go back to the invoke-restart version to avoid duplicating the handling code, and add a comment that it's also intended to be triggerable by external interrupts…
2015-08-01T01:52:03Z drmeister: pjb: I wouldn't install a restart with that name.  But you recommend using INVOKE-RESTART?
2015-08-01T01:52:21Z drmeister: Ok, I'll go back to it.
2015-08-01T01:52:30Z pjb: drmeister: I'm just saying that the semantics are different, and you have to choose.
2015-08-01T01:53:12Z pjb: If you control the inner code, and know that you don't have another such restart, then it won't make a difference.  returning-from is a lighter mechanism.
2015-08-01T01:53:39Z drmeister: So:
2015-08-01T01:53:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6ZKQJ5gu/
2015-08-01T01:54:33Z pjb: You don't need the (something) parameter.  Just () as lambda-list will be ok.
2015-08-01T01:57:23Z drmeister: Whoops RESTART-CASE as well
2015-08-01T01:59:46Z drmeister: How do people manage code in Slime?   I'm writing functions and little snippets of code that I use to test the functions.   I've started putting the functions at the top of the file, more or less in order of what functions call what and under a ;;;;;;;;;;;;   comment I put the code that I'm using to test the functions.
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2015-08-01T02:00:41Z pjb: You don't manage code in slime. You still have to write your code in files you choose yourself.
2015-08-01T02:01:02Z drmeister: My idle wishes are that there were a way to select all of the functions in one key press and then go C-c C-r to compile them all at once.
2015-08-01T02:01:30Z pjb: Writing test functions in the same file is nice while developping, but for delivery, you may want to put them in separate files, and even to define a separate asd system for tests.
2015-08-01T02:01:42Z drmeister: pjb: Right - I didn't express myself very well.
2015-08-01T02:01:43Z pjb: drmeister: I just use C-c C-l to load the file.
2015-08-01T02:03:07Z drmeister: So a file for functions and another file for tests.   That sounds fine.   I end up constantly jumping between the two parts of the file anyway - surely it's better to jump between two files in two different frames.
2015-08-01T02:03:15Z pjb: C-c C-l or C-c C-k  are better than C-c C-r or C-x C-e, because the former register the source of the code, so M-. will work.
2015-08-01T02:03:51Z pjb: drmeister: I tend to start writing the test functions in the same file, and then move them away to a separate file, when I'm done.
2015-08-01T02:04:10Z pjb: Also I have a (test/all) call at the end of the file so each time I C-c C-l, tests are run.
2015-08-01T02:04:14Z pjb: (while developping).
2015-08-01T02:04:52Z White_Flame: I tend to write my tests right next to the code I'm testing, since I'll likely be editing both, then move the test out somewhere else once I'm confident in it.  Also, C-c C-k all the time
2015-08-01T02:05:36Z drmeister: C-c C-k?
2015-08-01T02:05:43Z pjb: slime compile and load
2015-08-01T02:05:52Z pjb: drmeister: C-h k C-c C-k
2015-08-01T02:06:01Z pjb: (in the right mode).
2015-08-01T02:06:20Z pjb: drmeister: also mind C-h m to see all the bindings in the current mode.
2015-08-01T02:06:23Z drmeister: Oh, got it.
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2015-08-01T02:07:02Z pjb: Notice that C-c M-k is slime-compile-file and it doesn't load, so only compilation-time side effects are obtained.
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2015-08-01T03:16:51Z PuercoPop: you may find slime-scratch useful occasionally as well
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2015-08-01T03:49:04Z Fare: any windows user around? I'm looking for someone to test the batch file I wrote to bootstrap asdf without unix utilities.
2015-08-01T03:49:18Z Fare: requires ccl
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2015-08-01T03:50:12Z resttime: Fare, volunteer here
2015-08-01T03:53:42Z resttime: neat, i found out the issue with commonqt not showing up in SLIME
2015-08-01T03:53:48Z resttime: under windows that is
2015-08-01T03:54:39Z resttime: errr, more like I found out a "solution" that is
2015-08-01T03:55:00Z flash-- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2015-08-01T03:56:20Z resttime: it's the same issue cl-sdl2 has https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/issues/23
2015-08-01T03:56:37Z Fare: resttime: wait, I think I found a bug...
2015-08-01T03:57:05Z resttime: (with-main-window (window (make-instance 'my-qt-class)) (#_hide window) (#_show window))
2015-08-01T03:57:23Z Fare: nah, should work
2015-08-01T03:57:41Z resttime: Fare, k
2015-08-01T03:58:14Z Fare: can you grab the git repo of asdf, and use the minimakefile branch
2015-08-01T03:58:39Z Fare: make sure ccl is in your path or set CCL=....\ccl.exe
2015-08-01T03:59:03Z Fare: then type: make help
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2015-08-01T04:06:20Z resttime: Fare, was wondering if i got the wrong branch, but error is that asdf-tools.bat is missing
2015-08-01T04:07:08Z drmeister: I just hit a really nice example of where I wish I COULD setup a restart in C++.
2015-08-01T04:08:47Z drmeister: Sometimes when a molecule is undergoing geometry optimization four connected atoms go perfectly linear and the math explodes.   I could put the four atoms into a condition object and have a restart that just randomly perturbed them from their positions to knock them out of a perfect line - then the calculation could proceed.
2015-08-01T04:09:38Z drmeister: It's a pretty rare occurrence but it happened in one of the thirty two geometry optimizations I'm running.
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2015-08-01T04:11:28Z drmeister: It shut down the calculation and kicked me into SLDB and I manually restart the calculation by invoking a restart outside of the C++ code.
2015-08-01T04:12:23Z drmeister: Darn, it just happened again.  Two times in 20 geometry optimizations - that's often enough to be a problem.  If I were running on 1,000 CPU supercomputer they would be popping up all the time.
2015-08-01T04:12:30Z smokeink: solved my #_QPixmap::fromImage problem... i was calling it from outside qt's thread that's why it was segfaulting
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2015-08-01T04:13:28Z Fare: resttime: where is it looking for it?
2015-08-01T04:13:36Z resttime: same folder
2015-08-01T04:13:47Z Fare: isn't it in tools? Did I forget to include tools\ in the path when invoking it?
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2015-08-01T04:14:37Z resttime: probably, i'm looking through make.bat
2015-08-01T04:14:42Z resttime: no mention of tools
2015-08-01T04:14:50Z resttime: err the folder that is
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2015-08-01T04:15:29Z Dildeaux: Tired of niggers?
2015-08-01T04:15:36Z Dildeaux: Sick of their monkeyshines?
2015-08-01T04:15:39Z Dildeaux: We are too!
2015-08-01T04:15:43Z Dildeaux: Join Chimpmania Forum!
2015-08-01T04:15:52Z Dildeaux: At Chimpmania, we are NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS!
2015-08-01T04:15:55Z Dildeaux: I myself am a Mexican!
2015-08-01T04:16:05Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2015-08-01T04:16:11Z Dildeaux: Basically, if you are NOT A NIGGER and you HATE NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms!
2015-08-01T04:16:16Z Dildeaux: Join Chimpmania Forum today!
2015-08-01T04:16:23Z Dildeaux: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-08-01T04:16:29Z Dildeaux: CHIMPMANIA IS THE NEW HOME OF CHIMPOUT FORUM!
2015-08-01T04:16:35Z Dildeaux: Join today!
2015-08-01T04:16:42Z Fare: ok, can you pull and try again?
2015-08-01T04:16:45Z Dildeaux: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
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2015-08-01T04:16:57Z resttime: Fare, sure
2015-08-01T04:17:53Z Fare: drmeister, can you filter what you send to the C++ code? Or fix the C++ code to do the detection?
2015-08-01T04:18:13Z drmeister: Fare: How do you mean?
2015-08-01T04:18:29Z drmeister: Rather, could you provide more detail about what you are thinking?
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2015-08-01T04:19:17Z Fare: drmeister, well, I don't understand the details of your system, but if the C++ code goes bad, you can fix it to not go bad, or filter your input (or every N steps) to make sure it stays within bounds.
2015-08-01T04:19:44Z Fare: at the very worst... fork :-/
2015-08-01T04:20:26Z drmeister: The C++ code does the detection of the problem and I suppose I could correct the problem right then and there.
2015-08-01T04:21:03Z Dildeaux: Tired of niggers?
2015-08-01T04:21:06Z Dildeaux: Sick of their monkeyshines?
2015-08-01T04:21:08Z Dildeaux: We are too!
2015-08-01T04:21:13Z Dildeaux: Join Chimpmania Forum!
2015-08-01T04:21:19Z Dildeaux: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-08-01T04:21:24Z Dildeaux: At Chimpmania, we are NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS!
2015-08-01T04:21:28Z Dildeaux: I myself am a Mexican!
2015-08-01T04:21:34Z theos: ..
2015-08-01T04:21:41Z Dildeaux: Basically, if you are NOT A NIGGER and you HATE NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms!
2015-08-01T04:21:45Z Dildeaux: Join Chimpmania Forum today
2015-08-01T04:21:45Z resttime: Fare, there's an error: "cl-launch/dispatch" not found
2015-08-01T04:21:52Z Dildeaux: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-08-01T04:21:58Z Dildeaux: CHIMPMANIA IS THE NEW HOME OF CHIMPOUT FORUM!
2015-08-01T04:22:03Z Dildeaux: Join today!
2015-08-01T04:22:07Z resttime: > While executing: (:INTERNAL QUICKLISP-CLIENT::RECURSE QUICKLISP-CLIENT::COMPUT
2015-08-01T04:22:07Z resttime: E-LOAD-STRATEGY), in process listener(1).
2015-08-01T04:22:11Z Dildeaux: http://www.chimpmania.com/forum
2015-08-01T04:22:11Z drmeister: But I was thinking it would be nice if I could provide a RESTART-BIND from the code that calls it and provide code that deals with the problem.  I'm still chewing on the idea.
2015-08-01T04:24:38Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: Can you ban D-i-l-d-e-a-u-x (no dashes)  he's a troll
2015-08-01T04:25:14Z Fare: resttime: uh oh
2015-08-01T04:26:31Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-08-01T04:27:09Z Fare: ok, can some kickban Dildeaux ?
2015-08-01T04:27:30Z Fare: drmeister, a bot, likely
2015-08-01T04:28:22Z Fare: resttime, can you make ext to get the dependencies from git rather than via quicklisp?
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2015-08-01T04:30:38Z Fare: eventually, if everything goes right, `make help` should give you a list of commands.
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2015-08-01T04:32:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-01T04:32:55Z Fare: chào anh!
2015-08-01T04:35:08Z resttime: Fare, sorry went to take a shower, what do you mean by that?
2015-08-01T04:38:30Z akkad: chao bac ji
2015-08-01T04:45:44Z beach: drmeister: Did you read what I wrote with respect to using SICL generic dispatch in Clasp?
2015-08-01T04:46:16Z resttime: Fare, okay i grabbed cl-launch from latest gitlab, used msys to build, then ran make help
2015-08-01T04:46:24Z resttime: behaviour changed but i think it still doesn't work
2015-08-01T04:46:36Z beach: drmeister: Basically, I said that the existing technique can coexist with the SICL technique without any changes to the Clasp code base.
2015-08-01T04:46:50Z resttime: err also forgot to mention I replaced the ext/cl-launch with the newly built one
2015-08-01T04:46:54Z beach: drmeister: CLOS already has what it takes to make it happen.
2015-08-01T04:47:03Z drmeister: Hello
2015-08-01T04:47:22Z resttime: Fare, wait no never mind, it works
2015-08-01T04:47:26Z drmeister: beach: Yes, it sounds great.
2015-08-01T04:47:29Z resttime: it gives me a list of commands
2015-08-01T04:47:45Z drmeister: beach: And a completely Common Lisp implementation sounds even greater.
2015-08-01T04:47:59Z resttime: archive, build-asdf, bump, bump-version, etc.
2015-08-01T04:48:17Z beach: drmeister: Aside from one thing: It will need access to the Kind slot of the objects.
2015-08-01T04:48:48Z drmeister: Sure, and I can provide that as a 62 bit Fixnum value - would that work?
2015-08-01T04:49:00Z beach: Yes.
2015-08-01T04:49:22Z drmeister: And that's enough bits so that it will take a while to wrap around - correct?  Like centuries?
2015-08-01T04:49:29Z drmeister: Mileniums
2015-08-01T04:49:30Z beach: Right.
2015-08-01T04:50:00Z beach: And also, for objects that don't have a Kind slot, it will need the unique number of the class.
2015-08-01T04:50:34Z drmeister: Cool - so CORE:OBJECT-KIND - would that do it for you?
2015-08-01T04:50:43Z drmeister: (CORE:OBJECT-KIND obj)
2015-08-01T04:50:49Z beach: I don't know.  You tell me.
2015-08-01T04:51:01Z drmeister: I think so.
2015-08-01T04:51:04Z beach: OK.
2015-08-01T04:51:20Z beach: What happens if the instance needs updating?
2015-08-01T04:51:31Z drmeister: Now this will only work with MPS.   The Boehm GC will be stuck with the old generic function dispatch.   MPS get's all the cool stuff.
2015-08-01T04:51:41Z drmeister: gets
2015-08-01T04:52:06Z beach: With Boehm, there is no Kind?
2015-08-01T04:52:10Z drmeister: I could backport it to Boehm but that would introduce circularity in the bootstrapping process.
2015-08-01T04:52:22Z beach: Yeah, don't bother.
2015-08-01T04:53:02Z beach: What if the class has been modified after the instance was created, what does OBJECT-KIND return then?
2015-08-01T04:53:17Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2015-08-01T04:53:48Z beach: ... and is the instance automatically updated by OBJECT-KIND?
2015-08-01T04:53:48Z drmeister: So instances of CLOS classes currently all have the same Kind value - the one that Instance_O gets
2015-08-01T04:54:20Z drmeister: I was thinking of changing that - but you raise a good point.   What would CHANGE-CLASS do...
2015-08-01T04:54:45Z beach: A single Kind for all standard objects?  That won't work for dispatch.
2015-08-01T04:56:18Z drmeister: I mentioned that to you before and that instances of Instance_O have a pointer to a class object.    Maybe I didn't make that clear enough.   I was thinking that I could switch to a different approach where CLOS instances have a Kind > the (OBJECT-KIND Instance_O).
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2015-08-01T04:57:08Z drmeister: So builtin, C++ classes have Kind values from 0...MAX-BUILTIN-KIND and CLOS instances have Kind values that start at MAX-BUILTIN-KIND+1 and continue on from there.
2015-08-01T04:57:26Z beach: OK.
2015-08-01T04:57:50Z beach: You need to call it something other than "instance of a CLOS class", because every object is an instance of some CLOS class.
2015-08-01T04:58:06Z beach: like 123 is an instance of the CLOS class INTEGER.
2015-08-01T04:58:23Z drmeister: That raises a huge question though.  What happens when I do CHANGE-CLASS on an object that gets more slots.   Are the slots stored in the object directly is there a pointer to the slots stored somewhere else?
2015-08-01T04:58:58Z beach: Are you asking, or speculating about different possibilities?
2015-08-01T04:59:03Z drmeister: beach: Yeah, like 123 would be an instance of the CLOS class INTEGER.
2015-08-01T04:59:21Z drmeister: I'm asking how implementations normally do it.
2015-08-01T05:00:14Z beach: Normally, there is a header that defines the identity of the object, and a pointer to the slot storage.  When the class is updated, the slot storage is altered, possibly reallocated, before client code can inspect it.
2015-08-01T05:00:17Z drmeister: They would use indirection - right?   CHANGE-CLASS couldn't resize the object that it's changing because you can't update all the pointers if you have to move it.
2015-08-01T05:00:41Z drmeister: Ok, so there is a pointer to the slot storage.  Hang on - let me check what I do.
2015-08-01T05:01:08Z drmeister: Yeah, a pointer to the slot storage.
2015-08-01T05:01:38Z beach: But you don't want to update the instance immediately as a result of changing the class.
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2015-08-01T05:01:55Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/newbuild/include/clasp/core/instance.h#L100
2015-08-01T05:01:56Z beach: Because that would require a back pointer to each instance.
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2015-08-01T05:04:22Z beach: Instead, the best solution is that any attempt at applying a generic function to an obsolete object detects the situation and updates that object.
2015-08-01T05:06:04Z drmeister: beach: I've been reading these fascinating statements and papers by Ross Ihaka about R (he's one of the originators of R).
2015-08-01T05:06:09Z drmeister: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3726
2015-08-01T05:06:37Z beach: I saw the reference.  Interesting.
2015-08-01T05:06:52Z drmeister: He's proposing since 2010 to develop a new statistical computing system to replace R based on Common Lisp.
2015-08-01T05:07:11Z drmeister: R is about 500x slower than C, like bclasp currently.
2015-08-01T05:08:38Z drmeister: He briefly describes here a couple of years effort to build a compiler for R - they get about 2x to 5x speedup!
2015-08-01T05:08:40Z drmeister: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-7908-2084-3_2
2015-08-01T05:08:43Z drmeister: Hang on.
2015-08-01T05:09:05Z drmeister:  (I tiny URL'd it)   http://tiny.cc/fe490x
2015-08-01T05:09:29Z drmeister: This might be old news to you.
2015-08-01T05:10:18Z beach: I found the PDF and downloaded it.
2015-08-01T05:10:23Z drmeister: And check it out - I'm building molecules with cclasp in Slime.
2015-08-01T05:10:25Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/rAO7tK4.png
2015-08-01T05:10:30Z Fare: resttime: thanks a lot!
2015-08-01T05:10:54Z Fare: can you run this? make t l=ccl
2015-08-01T05:10:55Z drmeister: These are 32 stereoisomers (different shaped molecules) two of which we just synthesized and that we are going to test as inhibitors for HIV virus fusion.
2015-08-01T05:11:20Z drmeister: It's part of some demo slides I'm putting together for Monday.
2015-08-01T05:11:53Z drmeister: I've been able to build molecules for two days now (shhh, don't tell the folks at Google how close to the wire I came with this).
2015-08-01T05:12:02Z drmeister: It'll be our secret.
2015-08-01T05:12:07Z Fare: resttime: what if you make clean in ext/cl-launch? Does it work afterward?
2015-08-01T05:12:42Z drmeister: But I am on freakin' fire right now.  Everything is working well enough to build molecules.
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2015-08-01T05:17:11Z resttime: Fare, it's looking for the wrong file "dispatch.lisp.lisp"
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2015-08-01T05:30:17Z drmeister: bclasp is ~220x times slower than the best cclasp result (Fibonacci sequence test)
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2015-08-01T05:32:11Z beach can't keep up with the rapid changes in focus by drmeister.
2015-08-01T05:32:35Z beach: generic dispatch -> R -> molecules -> bclasp -> ?
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2015-08-01T05:33:21Z drmeister: My brain is like a rolodex. :-)
2015-08-01T05:34:14Z drmeister: And I'm waiting for something to compile.
2015-08-01T05:35:07Z beach: That explains it. :)
2015-08-01T05:35:18Z beach: ... sort of.
2015-08-01T05:37:35Z Fare: resttime: thanks, fixing...
2015-08-01T05:37:39Z drmeister: Anyway, the R stuff was interesting because Ihaka basically apologizes for developing R the way they did.  I have a lot of respect for the guy.  Because he wants to move his field forward and he realizes that the tools that he has and that he helped developed probably won't get him there.
2015-08-01T05:38:05Z drmeister: ... and he's looking for something better.   That resonates with me.
2015-08-01T05:38:25Z beach: Yes, I understand.  And the paper is fascinating.
2015-08-01T05:39:06Z drmeister: faheem__ pointed this stuff out to me - I agree, fascinating.
2015-08-01T05:39:24Z Fare: pushed
2015-08-01T05:39:33Z Fare: can you try again?
2015-08-01T05:39:39Z beach: Once I finish reading it, I will do a forward reference search on ACM Digital Library to see whether there is anything more recent.
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2015-08-01T05:42:13Z drmeister: Sure, keep me up to date with what you find.   I don't have time to follow that thread at the moment.
2015-08-01T05:42:29Z beach: Yes, you need to do your molecules.
2015-08-01T05:42:45Z beach: We will also get back to generic dispatch some other time.
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2015-08-01T06:04:53Z resttime: Fare, alright on it
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2015-08-01T06:09:29Z resttime: Fare, make help works!
2015-08-01T06:09:33Z Fare: yay!
2015-08-01T06:10:07Z resttime: https://jii.moe/NJ8CbIH9.png
2015-08-01T06:11:33Z Fare: what about make t l=ccl ?
2015-08-01T06:12:02Z Fare: what were the warnings?
2015-08-01T06:12:46Z Fare: weird japanese characters...
2015-08-01T06:13:06Z Fare: I suppose it's the … printed when a help line is truncated
2015-08-01T06:13:13Z resttime: with both "make help" and "make t l=ccl" there's a lot of "In an anonymous lambda form at position XXXXXX
2015-08-01T06:13:25Z Fare: apparently you're using a euc.jp terminal or something rather than utf-8
2015-08-01T06:13:26Z resttime: Duplicate definitions of XXXX
2015-08-01T06:13:38Z resttime: Fare, yes to the terminal type
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2015-08-01T06:13:53Z resttime: In in doc/ director `make`: process failed with code 2
2015-08-01T06:13:59Z resttime: *directory,
2015-08-01T06:14:01Z Fare: can you give details on the warning?
2015-08-01T06:14:26Z Fare: ouch, well, I have to convert the doc Makefile, too, I suppose.
2015-08-01T06:14:32Z resttime: ;   In an anonymous lambda form at position 554454: Duplicate definitions of (TY
2015-08-01T06:14:32Z resttime: PE COMPILE-ERROR), in this file and in "home:Desktop;asdf.git;build;asdf.lisp.ne
2015-08-01T06:14:33Z resttime: west"
2015-08-01T06:14:33Z resttime: ;   In an anonymous lambda form at position 554454: Duplicate definitions of (:M
2015-08-01T06:14:33Z resttime: ETHOD CCL::REPORT-CONDITION (OPERATION-ERROR T)), in this file and in "home:Desk
2015-08-01T06:14:49Z resttime: top;asdf.git;build;asdf.lisp.newest"
2015-08-01T06:14:49Z resttime: a lot of those
2015-08-01T06:15:06Z Fare: same location?
2015-08-01T06:15:24Z Fare: falling asleep. Will look tomorrow. Thanks a whole lot!
2015-08-01T06:15:32Z resttime: not same location
2015-08-01T06:15:42Z resttime: and no prob you can always ping me if you need help again
2015-08-01T06:15:47Z Fare: if you can redirect to a file and send me mail, it's useful
2015-08-01T06:16:05Z resttime: kk i'll do that if you can wait a bit longer
2015-08-01T06:17:15Z Fare: by what name shall I credit you for your help?
2015-08-01T06:17:22Z Fare: (in a mail to asdf-devel)
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2015-08-01T06:17:38Z resttime: rest or resttime is fine
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2015-08-01T06:18:55Z resttime: oh wow I tried to pipe everything with "make  t l=ccl > theoutput" and it just gave the last few lines with the make doc error
2015-08-01T06:19:12Z resttime: i'm not sure how to pipe this properly
2015-08-01T06:20:36Z resttime: oh crap, i don't think output redirection is supported like that in windows
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2015-08-01T06:20:54Z resttime: sbcl had an issue with that in cffi-libffi
2015-08-01T06:22:23Z resttime: Fare, closest to the pipe http://paste.lisp.org/display/152750
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2015-08-01T06:22:45Z resttime: it's just a lot of that repeating over and over until it's done
2015-08-01T06:25:41Z resttime: errr repeating with positions and definitions changing that is
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2015-08-01T06:33:16Z lisp-noob: hi all. cffi:foreign-funcall is a macro but in my case the arguments and their count are known later, at runtime. I have a solution with eval. Can it be done cleaner? http://pastebin.com/gZtA0Nyu
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2015-08-01T06:57:49Z drmeister: beach: Ok, I'm really excited about the generic dispatch stuff - because I'm hopeful that it will speed up the cclasp compiler and lower the cost of using multiple dispatch and generic functions - which I have grown to love.
2015-08-01T06:58:16Z drmeister: Good night
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2015-08-01T07:38:23Z Firedancer: Morning all. I am trying a little toy code to learn cl. I don't understand why the compiler says there is unreachable code here and function doesn't return anything. Does anyone see obvious mistake http://paste.lisp.org/display/152759 ?
2015-08-01T07:38:23Z minion: Firedancer, memo from reb``: SBCL also runs on the Raspberry Pi.
2015-08-01T07:39:55Z beach: Firedancer: You are learning Common Lisp by using infix notation?  Hmm.
2015-08-01T07:41:21Z Firedancer: Mostly because later in real equations it will be so much easier to write them in that way than transform all of them to polish notation
2015-08-01T07:41:42Z beach: Firedancer: It could be that the compiler realizes that you don't actually do anything in the loop.
2015-08-01T07:42:11Z beach: Firedancer: Yes, but there is a problem with that, namely that you are now asking for help with your code, so you ask others to read it.
2015-08-01T07:43:28Z Firedancer: aaa true, I guess for others it would be easier to read in the normal lisp way....
2015-08-01T07:43:31Z z0d: Firedancer: it's hard to read that code
2015-08-01T07:44:02Z beach: Firedancer: What do you think the code is doing?
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2015-08-01T07:46:04Z Firedancer: it should go through the freq list, calculate one value from based on that and put it in dispersion list and return the list after it is finished
2015-08-01T07:46:28Z beach: Firedancer: And where do you modify dispersion?
2015-08-01T07:47:01Z resttime: lisp-noob, if you like recursion you'll like ginger ale http://paste.lisp.org/display/152762
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2015-08-01T07:48:14Z beach: Firedancer: What Common Lisp operator do you use so that you "put it in dispersion list"?
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2015-08-01T07:49:12Z Firedancer: hmm i thought (list a b) would make return (a b) list
2015-08-01T07:49:26Z beach: clhs list
2015-08-01T07:49:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
2015-08-01T07:49:45Z beach: Firedancer: Yes, LIST creates a list of the arguments you give it.
2015-08-01T07:49:56Z beach: Firedancer: Now what do you do with that list in your code?
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2015-08-01T07:51:47Z Firedancer: aaa true, it doesn't do anything with that. Thanks for walking me through that
2015-08-01T07:51:54Z beach: Anytime.
2015-08-01T07:52:26Z beach: Firedancer: Next time you show code for others to read, make sure it looks more like people expect of Common Lisp code.
2015-08-01T07:52:54Z beach: Firedancer: Use prefix notation, and make sure your code has correct spacing and indentation.
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2015-08-01T07:54:39Z Firedancer: prefix I undestand, but was there something wrong with my indentation? Is there common style guide?
2015-08-01T07:55:01Z beach: Firedancer: Just use SLIME/Emacs.  It will indent correctly.
2015-08-01T07:55:34Z Firedancer: I am using it
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2015-08-01T07:55:53Z beach: Then hit TAB on the line that says DOLIST and see what happens.
2015-08-01T07:56:55Z beach: Then do the same on the line that starts with `(list ...'
2015-08-01T07:57:18Z beach: You will then see that before you did that, they were not indented correctly.
2015-08-01T07:57:21Z Firedancer: aaa they were little off, right
2015-08-01T07:57:54Z beach: You might want to put each binding in the first LET on a separate line.
2015-08-01T07:58:10Z beach: That way, they align nicely and it is easier to see what the code is doing.
2015-08-01T07:58:19Z theos: morning beach :)
2015-08-01T07:58:20Z beach: Also, put a single space between 1D and (.
2015-08-01T07:58:26Z beach: Hey theos.
2015-08-01T07:58:52Z beach: Firedancer: And remove one of the spaces between ))) and dispersion on the last line.
2015-08-01T08:00:14Z Firedancer: noted beach . Thanks again
2015-08-01T08:00:33Z beach: No problem.
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2015-08-01T08:41:09Z Firedancer: is there any tips of for formating prefix equations to be more readable? Feels like it is really hard to check if any larger equation is writen correctly unless you are really familiar with the notation
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2015-08-01T08:42:06Z schjetne: Firedancer: I'd use literal programming and set them with TeX next to their prefix forms
2015-08-01T08:42:11Z schjetne: literate*
2015-08-01T08:42:30Z schjetne: Maybe this can be done with CommonDoc now
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2015-08-01T08:44:11Z beach: Firedancer: The secret is to become familiar with the notation.
2015-08-01T08:44:31Z Firedancer: schjetne: that is pretty nice idea
2015-08-01T08:45:22Z beach: Firedancer: Also, spread them over several lines as soon as they become a bit complicated.  The alignment makes the meaning more obvious.
2015-08-01T08:47:36Z Firedancer: btw I got my code to work o/
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2015-08-01T08:51:49Z beach: Congratulations.
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2015-08-01T09:11:25Z resttime: is this a proper test? http://paste.lisp.org/display/152768
2015-08-01T09:11:28Z resttime: results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152768#1
2015-08-01T09:12:04Z clique: it depends from the results of the kickoff meeting
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2015-08-01T09:14:27Z resttime: i can't hold a kickoff meeting with myself :(
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2015-08-01T09:22:47Z lisp-noob: resttime: Thanks but I menat getting rid of eval
2015-08-01T09:23:50Z lisp-noob: s/menat/meant/
2015-08-01T09:24:31Z pjb: Firedancer: try; http://paste.lisp.org/+39VB/1
2015-08-01T09:24:55Z pjb: If you paste the result, we could tune it to look nice.
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2015-08-01T09:26:15Z pjb: Firedancer: the problem with your code is not so much that it doesn't use standard syntax, that it is not stand alone. I tried to quickload "infix", and even to use some private parts such as (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\I #'infix::infix-reader *readtable*), but this doesn't allow me to read your code.
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2015-08-01T09:30:20Z Firedancer: pjb: I used Matlisp. I didn't realized that the syntax was that much it's own creation
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2015-08-01T09:31:04Z Firedancer: Unfortunately I have to now afk. Thank you for help
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2015-08-01T09:33:35Z resttime: lisp-noob, sorry then I'm a pretty big lisp noob myself, only thing i can think of is stuffing the macro into a lambda and use funcall or apply
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2015-08-01T09:36:26Z lisp-noob: thanks, resttime
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2015-08-01T09:43:41Z resttime: lisp-noob, no problem I'm actually curious about the solution since I'm learning a lot myself
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2015-08-01T10:19:04Z knobo: how to set up slime support for autocompleate?
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2015-08-01T11:04:17Z Adlai: knobo: have you set up your contribs? https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Loading-Contribs.html#Loading-Contribs
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2015-08-01T19:18:48Z knobo: How do I push a new (:key t) pair on to a plist? (progn (push t plist) (push :key plist))?
2015-08-01T19:18:56Z knobo: Would be nice with an atomic operation
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2015-08-01T19:19:25Z knobo: Maybe I have to use a lock if I want that.
2015-08-01T19:19:34Z jackdaniel: knobo: (setf (getf *plist* :hi) "hi")
2015-08-01T19:20:48Z knobo: jackdaniel: yes :)
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2015-08-01T19:21:06Z knobo: I thought I tested that, hours of debuging ago :/
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2015-08-01T19:22:04Z jackdaniel: happens all the time
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2015-08-01T19:25:03Z knobo: :)
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2015-08-01T20:10:34Z jackdaniel: weird, what is component "COND" ? -- Component COND not found, required by #<system "stumpwm">
2015-08-01T20:12:15Z z0d: probably broken code
2015-08-01T20:13:35Z |3b|: how did you get stumpwm? don't see anything like that in the .asd in the repo
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2015-08-01T20:14:13Z jackdaniel: from git, but there is no "cond" in asd either and I'm afraid it's ecl bug
2015-08-01T20:14:22Z jackdaniel: s/either/neither/
2015-08-01T20:14:56Z z0d: maybe you should try an earlier version from git
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2015-08-01T20:16:49Z |3b|: do cl-ppcre and clx load OK on their own?
2015-08-01T20:16:53Z Fare: probably some missing #+ clauses
2015-08-01T20:17:03Z jackdaniel: stumpwm from quicklisp loads fine
2015-08-01T20:17:24Z Fare: git diff
2015-08-01T20:17:32Z jackdaniel: cl-ppcre also, and ecl has it's own clx (recursive-locks workaround as far as I understood from discussion on ml)
2015-08-01T20:18:44Z |3b| meant more that clx loads correctly through asdf than where it came from
2015-08-01T20:19:07Z jackdaniel: |3b|: yeah, clx loads ok
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2015-08-01T20:19:27Z jackdaniel: does quicklisp provide sha of commit it uses?
2015-08-01T20:20:13Z |3b|: has date in directory name if nothing else
2015-08-01T20:21:06Z jackdaniel: right
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2015-08-01T20:23:47Z jackdaniel: even better, build with "make" fails, but load through asd works just fine
2015-08-01T20:27:37Z jackdaniel: ok, this causes error (part of make-image.lisp called by makefile) -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/152798
2015-08-01T20:27:49Z jackdaniel: Fare: would you consider it suspicious call? (its asdf:make-build)
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2015-08-01T20:30:03Z jackdaniel: build w/o :type :program works, probably something with ECL
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2015-08-01T20:34:25Z Fare: jackdaniel, I don't support make-build
2015-08-01T20:34:30Z Fare: it's a left-over from asdf-ecl
2015-08-01T20:34:41Z Fare: that I tried to remove once, but some ecl users protested.
2015-08-01T20:35:01Z Fare: (or maybe I didn't so much try to remove it as inadvertently broke it because I don't test it)
2015-08-01T20:35:28Z Fare: I recommend using program-op, which is more portable
2015-08-01T20:38:32Z Fare: I am grateful to whoever developed asdf-ecl, and it was a great hack on top of asdf 1, but it's not so well designed, and is obsolete, and fully replaced by asdf/bundle
2015-08-01T20:38:37Z |3b|: looks like :type :program tells it to use program-op
2015-08-01T20:39:54Z Fare: yes
2015-08-01T20:40:14Z Fare: the new make-build is a thin layer atop of the regular asdf functions.
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2015-08-01T20:48:14Z aeth: One of my favorite features of Lisp: I don't have to run a program, wait, and then find out I missed a comma somewhere. No commas to misplace.
2015-08-01T20:49:08Z |3b|: "Comma not inside a backquote.
2015-08-01T20:49:15Z Fare: I have plenty of misplaced commas in lisp
2015-08-01T20:49:19Z aeth: |3b|: good point
2015-08-01T20:49:28Z Fare: you mustn't be doing macros enough.
2015-08-01T20:49:39Z aeth: |3b|: I mean no missing commas in tables/dicts/whatever and no missing commas in function arguments, etc.
2015-08-01T20:49:40Z |3b|: or accidentally hitting ,
2015-08-01T20:50:21Z aeth: although, I actually don't really mess up , in Lisp macros
2015-08-01T20:50:30Z Fare: no restarting lisp from scratch — unless you really want to, at which point cl-launch's or buildapp's ability to produce multi-call binaries rocks.
2015-08-01T20:50:35Z aeth: I miss commas all the time in Lua tables for some reason
2015-08-01T20:51:31Z jackdaniel: Fare: ok, seems it's make-build - will you accept patch if I'll manage to grok it enough to fix a call? (downgraded asdf to confirm)
2015-08-01T20:51:40Z Fare: sure
2015-08-01T20:52:03Z Fare: if you want to add a test, that's even better
2015-08-01T20:53:10Z Fare: if you think make-build is useful, maybe it should be made portable and no longer #+ecl'ed
2015-08-01T20:54:54Z jackdaniel: idk if it's useful, but some code use it (stumpwm as example)
2015-08-01T20:55:01Z aeth: Anyway, what I mean to say is that I think Lisp benefits a not by not requiring a semicolon to end a line and by not requiring a comma to separate data structures (although Lisp would be really annoying if you had to do (+, 1, 2))
2015-08-01T20:55:13Z jackdaniel: and it's not #+ecl'ed in new asdf I see
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2015-08-01T21:04:43Z jackdaniel: ok, it was fairly trivial after comparison - new asdf doesn't have component-depends-on specialized on bundle-compile-op and bundle-op
2015-08-01T21:04:54Z jackdaniel: after readding them magically it starts to work
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2015-08-01T21:26:26Z jackdaniel: ok , not that trivial, just load new asdf on-top of old one
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2015-08-01T22:22:53Z jackdaniel: ok, fixed :-)
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2015-08-01T22:26:00Z knobo: How about including the quicklisp version number in the topic of the channel?
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2015-08-02T00:01:31Z pillton: Hmm.. If NAME is declared to be an accessor by the hyperspec. Does that mean #'(setf name) has to exist?
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2015-08-02T00:04:52Z |3b| suspects not, but can't find anything either way in clhs at the moment
2015-08-02T00:05:46Z pjb: Well, clhs defstruct calls them accessors and we know they can be implemented otherwise than with a setf function.
2015-08-02T00:06:47Z |3b|: yeah, struct accessors is main thing that makes me unsure, since some of the standard accessors probably operate on structures
2015-08-02T00:08:00Z |3b|: clhs 1.4.4.14
2015-08-02T00:08:00Z specbot: The ``Name'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddn.htm
2015-08-02T00:08:11Z |3b|: ^ is closest i can find to suggesting it should
2015-08-02T00:09:58Z pjb: I don't think it implies anything about implementation of the accessor.
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2015-08-02T00:13:28Z |3b|: clhs 5.1.1.2
2015-08-02T00:13:28Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm
2015-08-02T00:13:48Z |3b|: looks (mostly) unspecified
2015-08-02T00:14:44Z pjb: For example, notice how clhs car explicitely writes (car x) and (setf (car x) new-value), and not (setf car).
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2015-08-02T00:15:19Z pjb: Yes, it seems all accessor pages, do the same, they explicitely refer (setf (a x) v).
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2015-08-02T00:15:41Z pjb: Ah, not clhs documentation. Here you have (setf documentation)
2015-08-02T00:15:53Z pjb: But then, it's a standard generic function.
2015-08-02T00:16:59Z pjb: Yes, it seems that accessors go thru setf, while generic functions may define a (setf f).
2015-08-02T00:18:19Z pjb: (and of course, there's file-position taking an optional argument to set the position).
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2015-08-02T00:22:11Z pillton: So how can you do (apply #'(setf aref) value array subscripts) portably?
2015-08-02T00:22:47Z nyef: pillton: See "APPLY forms as places"
2015-08-02T00:23:22Z nyef: clhs 5.1.2.5
2015-08-02T00:23:22Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
2015-08-02T00:23:41Z pillton: Oh. Idiot.
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2015-08-02T00:23:44Z pillton: Thanks.
2015-08-02T00:24:06Z pillton was referring to himself as an idiot.
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2015-08-02T03:07:03Z theos: i dont think specbot will mind being called an idiot
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2015-08-02T03:11:35Z nyef: theos: I might, though.
2015-08-02T03:12:47Z theos: nyef stay hungry! stay foolish!
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2015-08-02T03:49:16Z PuercoPop: I runned into a problem I have no idea how to resolve. I wanted to set the value of a lexically-scope variable according named after a 'key' read in a string.See  http://paste.lisp.org/+39WT I just side-stepped the problem by creating a plist, but was left wondering how to do it.
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2015-08-02T03:53:42Z pillton: PuercoPop: Use one of the string predicates to test the input string and then call (setf title value).
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2015-08-02T04:01:50Z PuercoPop: What I'm trying to do is figure out how to write the (setf ...) without knowing what the keys would be beforehand. So it can't be title, but it has to be key or its value ("title"). What you propose is another way to handle it. But as a said, I already sidestepped the problem and was just curious.
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2015-08-02T04:13:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-02T04:13:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-08-02T04:14:24Z beach: Hey nyef.  Are you back working on NQ-CLIM?
2015-08-02T04:14:40Z nyef: Not yet.
2015-08-02T04:15:46Z nyef: Currently splitting my time with trying to catch up with the mess of work that was deposited in my lap over Thursday and Friday, and trying to mostly square away the next major chunk of Linux kernel hacking that I need to do.
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2015-08-02T04:17:23Z beach: Both sound interesting in their own way. :)
2015-08-02T04:21:27Z nyef: Oh, and I'm also doing some background thinking on improvements to my current Forth system, and using Lisp to work with a serial port.
2015-08-02T04:26:05Z beach: You use the Forth system for bootstrapping right?
2015-08-02T04:28:07Z nyef: That's the eventual plan.
2015-08-02T04:28:46Z beach: I see.
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2015-08-02T04:29:14Z drmeister: Hello
2015-08-02T04:29:40Z nyef: Right now, it self-hosts, and cross-builds from gforth and jonesforth.
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2015-08-02T04:30:03Z nyef: And that's pretty much all it does at this point.
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2015-08-02T04:30:30Z beach: nyef: Still, that sounds like a feat.
2015-08-02T04:30:41Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-08-02T04:30:52Z nyef: It did take a bit of doing.
2015-08-02T04:31:20Z beach: I can imagine.
2015-08-02T04:31:41Z beach: Must be problems similar to what I am currently dealing with in building SICL.
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2015-08-02T04:33:10Z nyef: Yes and no. I mean, it's not like there's CLOS to worry about. (-:
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2015-08-02T04:33:28Z beach: Heh.  True!
2015-08-02T04:35:01Z beach: I think I have a pretty good grip on CLOS now.
2015-08-02T04:35:09Z beach: It doesn't scare me anymore. :)
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2015-08-02T04:46:54Z sigjuice_: is there a way for (loop ... collect) to produce a vector instead of a list?
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2015-08-02T04:47:04Z beach: No.
2015-08-02T04:47:04Z theos: thats awesome beach !
2015-08-02T04:47:49Z beach: theos: That I am not scared? :)
2015-08-02T04:48:06Z beach: sigjuice_: You would have to use VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND.
2015-08-02T04:48:34Z theos: beach you have a pretty good grip on CLOS
2015-08-02T04:48:52Z sigjuice_: beach: thanks. I will try that.
2015-08-02T04:49:19Z beach: theos: Creating the MOP website helped.  As did implementing CLOS and now bootstrapping it on a host Common Lisp system.
2015-08-02T04:51:39Z PuercoPop: sigjuice_: but there is in iterate. Or you could wrap the loop collect with a (apply #'vector ...)
2015-08-02T04:52:03Z theos: beach thats nice. i have to read amop and "oop in CL" soon! right after i unbrick my phone, deliver a baby and a few other things.
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2015-08-02T04:52:44Z beach: theos: The AMOP book contains a lot of information, but it is not very well written.
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2015-08-02T04:52:57Z beach: theos: The first time I tried to read it, I had to drop it.
2015-08-02T04:53:30Z theos: beach hmm. do you recommend any other book instead?
2015-08-02T04:53:33Z beach: theos: It required some significant experience with USING CLOS in order to understand it.
2015-08-02T04:53:48Z theos: chicken and egg problem?
2015-08-02T04:53:50Z beach: theos: Unfortunately, in my opinion, there are no good books on CLOS.
2015-08-02T04:54:09Z beach: The one by Sonja Keene feels old.
2015-08-02T04:54:26Z beach: I need to finish the book on CLOS first. :)
2015-08-02T04:54:43Z theos: yes. i said about updating that book here and got shot down :S
2015-08-02T04:54:55Z beach: Oh?
2015-08-02T04:55:46Z theos: i mean, i was wondering why authors dont update them. updates will be so awesome today! i dont think people liked the idea
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2015-08-02T04:56:46Z beach: theos: Beach's rule: There is always at least one person on #lisp who doesn't like your idea, no matter how good it is.
2015-08-02T04:56:49Z theos: think about ms keene writing an updated edition of her book in 2015!
2015-08-02T04:57:12Z sigjuice_: PuercoPop: thanks for the (apply #'vector ...) tip.  Though, the length of my list is only 80 so maybe I should just use elt, instead of overthinking it.
2015-08-02T04:57:48Z beach: theos: Well, the wold is full of people having opinions about what others ought to be doing.  I think it is much easier to write a new book than to try to convince Ms Keene to write an updated version.
2015-08-02T04:58:44Z H4ns: beach: what is it about keene's book that makes you say it "feels old"?
2015-08-02T04:59:06Z theos: beach but she is a better candidate. i think CLOS was invented around her.
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2015-08-02T04:59:37Z beach: H4ns: The examples.  One example is with locks.  That's not old, but not standard so you need to know a lot of other stuff as well to appreciate it.  The other main example is about software configuration for systems that no longer exist.
2015-08-02T04:59:42Z H4ns: theos: chances are that she has not been using common lisp in a very long time.
2015-08-02T04:59:54Z beach: theos: What H4ns said.
2015-08-02T05:00:05Z theos: hmm, fair enough
2015-08-02T05:00:13Z H4ns: beach: ah, ok.  i was not bothered by that, but maybe that is because i'm old, too :)
2015-08-02T05:00:39Z beach: theos: Also, it is not just because someone invented X that they are good at using it or writing about it.
2015-08-02T05:01:00Z beach: H4ns: More likely because you knew more about locks than I did when you read it.
2015-08-02T05:02:36Z theos: beach true. but generally they are good. i understand what you are saying.
2015-08-02T05:04:09Z beach: theos: My book on CLOS program already has more than 100 pages.
2015-08-02T05:04:17Z beach: programmING
2015-08-02T05:05:29Z theos: beach i am sure it will be a very good book. can we get #lisp discounts? :D
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2015-08-02T05:06:29Z beach: I would have nothing against that, but it will be technically difficult.  I use CreateSpace which is associated with Amazon, and there is no way to set a different price for different customers.
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2015-08-02T05:16:04Z theos: i was just kidding. a good book is worth the full price.
2015-08-02T05:16:49Z beach: I agree.  But unfortunately, if an ordinary publishing company is used, the author gets very little.
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2015-08-02T05:28:28Z theos: why not pay the publisher to print the book and you sell it. get full profit
2015-08-02T05:31:28Z beach: That's basically what CreateSpace does.
2015-08-02T05:31:31Z nyef: theos: That typically runs into having to pay for the print run up front, carry and ship the inventory yourself, and so on.
2015-08-02T05:31:59Z theos: nyef i prefer that. diy
2015-08-02T05:32:25Z nyef: Another angle is a print-on-demand system. Yet another is to sell it as an eBook...
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2015-08-02T05:32:44Z beach: Right, CreateSpace is print-on-demand and they sell through Amazon.
2015-08-02T05:32:51Z theos: i was going to suggest that you print the book yourself but it might be inconvenient
2015-08-02T05:32:57Z nyef: Selling as an eBook can be very attractive, as you basically keep all of the money, less transaction fees.
2015-08-02T05:33:20Z theos: ebooks are prone to piracy though
2015-08-02T05:33:22Z beach: theos: I have done that in the past, and it is dirt cheap to print a book that way.  But it's a lot of work to distribute it and market it, etc.
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2015-08-02T05:34:28Z nyef: theos: And print books are prone to interlibrary loan, re-sale, being dumped from inventory for not selling very well, and so on.
2015-08-02T05:34:30Z theos: beach createspace seems to be the optimum solution
2015-08-02T05:34:51Z nyef: theos: The general rule is that if someone pirates a book, they weren't going to buy it anyway.
2015-08-02T05:34:54Z beach: theos: It is for me.  Others may disagree.
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2015-08-02T05:35:57Z theos: nyef its a lot of effort to copy a hardcopy from library. ebooks can just be downloaded a million times easily.
2015-08-02T05:37:00Z theos: whatever lands on the internet is free forever. ebooks will always be free.
2015-08-02T05:37:02Z nyef: ... So? It's not a lot of effort to borrow the hardcopy from the library several times over the course of a few months. Either way, someone gets to read the book without having paid for it.
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2015-08-02T05:37:20Z nyef: Again, if someone pirates a book, they weren't going to buy it anyway.
2015-08-02T05:38:02Z theos: if you can get the book for cheap/free, nobody will buy it anyways
2015-08-02T05:38:16Z nyef: Hah!
2015-08-02T05:38:31Z nyef: Sure they will.
2015-08-02T05:38:33Z theos: specially if they cant touch/feel it. like ebooks.
2015-08-02T05:40:13Z nyef: You can get that-dead-sexy-book for free on the internet. That doesn't mean that the print version didn't sell.
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2015-08-02T05:40:45Z theos: i am a pirate now. but i used to buy hardcopies. stood in queues for days to get books. but now they are available for free on the internet and i feel cheated! i invested time and money in something thats available for free for everyone else!
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2015-08-02T05:41:46Z nyef: People will buy because it's easier than finding a pirated copy. They will buy to support the author. They will buy because they refuse to compromise their principles by what amounts to theft.
2015-08-02T05:43:09Z H4ns: nyef: I think "theft" is a pretty well defined term, and it does not apply to copying data.
2015-08-02T05:43:56Z nyef: Okay, fair enough. How about "by what amounts to an ``intellectual property'' rights violation"?
2015-08-02T05:44:06Z H4ns: nyef: Much better.
2015-08-02T05:44:49Z nyef: Essentially, lots of people will reciprocate for value received. And the ones who won't, won't.
2015-08-02T05:47:07Z H4ns: It may be that income generated by reader paying for access to the content won't be the predominant, or even a significant, model for financing book writing.
2015-08-02T05:47:41Z H4ns: For example, beach is propably not writing his CLOS book because he intends to make a living off it, but because he wants to and he can.
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2015-08-02T05:48:22Z beach: Right.  If I wanted to make a living, I would write about something with a bigger audience. :)
2015-08-02T05:50:51Z H4ns: It is interesting to see how we're made to think that "intellectual property rights" are in some way the guarantee for the existence of culture when they are just a way for capitalism to induce artificial scarceness onto certain resource form.
2015-08-02T05:51:07Z H4ns: But I'll admit that we're firmly in off topic land with all of this :)
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2015-08-02T05:55:42Z beach: OK, back on topic then: I am currently working on phase 3 of SICL CLOS bootstrapping.  I can create what I call "ersatz objects" (SICL general instances represented as two host objects; a header and a "slot vector"), and I am working on defining INITIALIZE-INSTANCE and SHARED-INITIALIZE to initialize these objects.
2015-08-02T05:56:54Z beach: This step requires the full generic-dispatch protocol to work, because all the generic functions involved here are SICL generic functions and not host generic functions.
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2015-08-02T05:59:17Z beach: The main obstacle is that there is some significant modifications to be done.  The first time I attempted this kind of bootstrapping, I didn't have first-class global environments, so I modified the CLOS implementation in some ugly ways so that it could be bootstrapped with a single global environment.  Now I want to eliminate that ugliness as much as possible.
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2015-08-02T06:02:12Z beach: Also, thinking of 3 different simultaneous versions of STANDARD-CLASS and the different representation of superclasses vs metaclasses can easily provoke headaches. :)
2015-08-02T06:02:44Z nyef: Ah, bootstrapping. Good luck, and have fun.
2015-08-02T06:02:57Z nyef: ... And how'd it get to be 2 AM here?
2015-08-02T06:03:05Z beach: Interesting discussions?
2015-08-02T06:03:25Z nyef: Yeah, probably.
2015-08-02T06:03:40Z nyef: I'm shutting down for the night.
2015-08-02T06:03:42Z nyef: G'night all.
2015-08-02T06:03:46Z beach: 'night nyef.
2015-08-02T06:07:24Z theos: cya
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2015-08-02T06:44:56Z Guthur: beach: are you writing a book on CLOS?
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2015-08-02T06:50:46Z beach: Guthur: Yes.
2015-08-02T06:50:59Z beach: Guthur: I always have many book projects going.
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2015-08-02T06:54:58Z beach: For Common Lisp, I have "Programming in Common Lisp", "Advanced Common Lisp programming", "Object-oriented Programming using the Common Lisp Object System", "Programming using the CLOS Metaobject Protocol", and "Common Lisp for Language Implementers".
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2015-08-02T06:55:22Z beach: Plus another half a dozen that are not related to Common Lisp.
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2015-08-02T07:18:11Z jackdaniel: beach: impressive :-) do you plan to finish some anytime soon?
2015-08-02T07:18:16Z jackdaniel: good morning all
2015-08-02T07:18:51Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-08-02T07:18:56Z beach: No. :)
2015-08-02T07:19:01Z jackdaniel: heh
2015-08-02T07:19:45Z beach: I probably need a co-author.
2015-08-02T07:20:36Z beach: ... someone who pesters me on a regular basis so that things move along.
2015-08-02T07:20:38Z jackdaniel: Fare: around? I made issue on gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf with attached patches (fix + minimal testcase)
2015-08-02T07:21:24Z jackdaniel: yeah, I know that - it's hard to self motivate to be disciplined, when you answer only to yourself
2015-08-02T07:21:48Z beach: Definitely.
2015-08-02T07:22:05Z beach: For SICL/Cleavir, I have drmeister playing that role. :)
2015-08-02T07:22:53Z jackdaniel: but it's a nice goal to aim - building selfdiscipline - I try it with modest successes
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2015-08-02T07:28:16Z jackdaniel: luis: around? I've sent pull request of cffi on github - changes for ECL foreign funcalls - they broke when defined defcfun was read from compiled file
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2015-08-02T07:33:11Z Guthur: beach: any of the them close to publication?
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2015-08-02T07:33:59Z beach: Guthur: None of the ones about Common Lisp, no.  The one on abstract data types is fairly complete.  It is really Common Lisp but with different syntax.
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2015-08-02T07:34:01Z Guthur: i suppose you probably answered that with the co-author comment
2015-08-02T07:34:08Z beach: Yeah.
2015-08-02T07:35:14Z Guthur: are there any online excerpts
2015-08-02T07:35:27Z beach: No, but I can send you one if you like.
2015-08-02T07:36:50Z jackdaniel: would it be greedy, if I'll ask for one too? :P
2015-08-02T07:36:59Z beach: Not at all.
2015-08-02T07:37:28Z jackdaniel: I've send you my mail via query, thanks :)
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2015-08-02T07:39:44Z beach: Guthur: If you want a sample, send me your email address by email so that I have a trace of it.
2015-08-02T07:40:43Z Guthur: beach: cool cheers
2015-08-02T07:41:21Z Guthur: sorry, my replies are a bit long in coming, my son is not in a good mood
2015-08-02T07:42:22Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2015-08-02T07:45:36Z Guthur: he'll be fine, just tired an hungry
2015-08-02T07:45:49Z Guthur: I'd be in a mad mood as well if it was me
2015-08-02T07:45:58Z Guthur: s/mad/bad
2015-08-02T07:45:59Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-02T09:24:41Z FFFggg: hi
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2015-08-02T09:27:24Z beach: Hello FFFggg.
2015-08-02T09:30:58Z FFFggg: where to find Russian-language channel? .. Well tell when this channel was discussed creation of Lisp sandboxes, please (yes, translate.google.com I use)
2015-08-02T09:32:42Z beach: I am not sure there would be a big audience for a Lisp channel in the Russian language.  Most Russian-speaking Lisp programmers also speak English.
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2015-08-02T09:37:12Z beach: jackdaniel: Perhaps you should start an effort to either rename all .lsp files to .lisp or the other way around.  In ECL, I mean.
2015-08-02T09:39:07Z FFFggg: Well tell when this channel was discussed creation of Lisp sandboxes, please (yes, translate.google.com I use)
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2015-08-02T09:39:46Z beach: FFFggg: Creating a sandbox environment for Common Lisp would be a valid topic here, yes.
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2015-08-02T09:40:46Z jackdaniel: beach: what is wrong with lsp extension?
2015-08-02T09:40:53Z beach: Nothing.
2015-08-02T09:40:59Z beach: It is just annoying to have both.
2015-08-02T09:41:52Z jackdaniel: hm, all ecl files are lsp - 3rd party packages have lisp extension
2015-08-02T09:42:00Z beach: Oh, I see.
2015-08-02T09:42:03Z beach: OK, never mind then.
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2015-08-02T09:49:43Z oleo: morning
2015-08-02T09:49:53Z beach: Hello oleo.
2015-08-02T09:50:25Z oleo: heya beach o)
2015-08-02T09:52:18Z beach fears that oleo has turned into a cyclops.
2015-08-02T09:52:53Z jackdaniel: even twice more scary - two eyed cyclope! -- 8)
2015-08-02T09:55:07Z oleo: ?
2015-08-02T09:55:47Z jackdaniel: o)  ←  it's like :), but only one eye - cyclopes were mythical creatures with one eye
2015-08-02T09:57:11Z jackdaniel: uh oh, cups adds basic 3d printers support
2015-08-02T10:00:43Z oleo: oh man
2015-08-02T10:00:53Z oleo: o/ === o)
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2015-08-02T12:44:40Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-08-02T14:06:28Z jackdaniel: I'm wondering, is there any reason, why standard doesn't allow calling functions like that: (#'abc 1 2 3), or even better ((pick-function 'abc) 1 2 3) ? It allows using (lambda …) in this context
2015-08-02T14:07:15Z nyef: It allows using a lambda expression as a specific exemption to a general rule.
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2015-08-02T14:07:36Z jackdaniel: i know, i'm wondering what is reasoning of creating such a rule
2015-08-02T14:07:47Z jackdaniel: behind creating…
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2015-08-02T14:13:12Z nyef: Creating the rule in which direction?
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2015-08-02T14:15:40Z jackdaniel: creating rule, which forbits using anything there except lambda expression or function|macro symbol name
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2015-08-02T14:16:29Z nyef: Ah. You're coming at it from *THAT* direction.
2015-08-02T14:17:03Z jackdaniel: nyef: :-) or creating rule, which allows only … ;)
2015-08-02T14:17:17Z nyef: If you look at the historic evolution of Lisp, they started with the rule that only a symbol was allowed there, and it was looked up as a function.
2015-08-02T14:17:22Z ggole: Most functional languages allow exactly that.
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2015-08-02T14:18:05Z nyef: And this is directly involved in the difference between a lisp-1 and a lisp-2.
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2015-08-02T14:18:50Z ggole: I suppose you could have different evaluation for a symbol there vs any other form (any other form being evaluated), and keep the lisp-1/lisp-2 distinction
2015-08-02T14:19:02Z jackdaniel: I think CL wouldn't loose such distinction if it would allow such evaluation
2015-08-02T14:19:11Z jackdaniel: what ggole said ↑
2015-08-02T14:20:20Z nyef: Mmm. But then you lose the distinctiveness of (setf whatever) as a "function name".
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2015-08-02T14:21:04Z jackdaniel: how so?
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2015-08-02T14:22:50Z nyef: You also increase the chance of someone getting confused by the behavior of symbols as the first element of a form.
2015-08-02T14:23:31Z isBEKaml: nyef: are lambda functions taken to be symbols?
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2015-08-02T14:24:27Z jackdaniel: hm, rule: first elemenet of evaluated form has to be a function/macro name or evaluate to function isn't that confusing (at least I don't find it very confusing)
2015-08-02T14:24:30Z nyef: I'm not seeing "lambda function" in the glossary of the hyperspec.
2015-08-02T14:25:21Z isBEKaml: nyef: tch, lambda expressions. I'm simply going by what you had said a little while ago. About someone getting confused by symbols being the first element of the form.
2015-08-02T14:25:49Z isBEKaml: I only saw that jackdaniel wanted to invoke functions starting with a lambda expression
2015-08-02T14:26:41Z nyef: jackdaniel: I find that horrifyingly ambiguous in the presence of lexical variables (which may evaluate to a function) and DEFUN (which may define a function with the same name as a lexical variable in some other function...)
2015-08-02T14:28:19Z jackdaniel: yes, that might be downside
2015-08-02T14:29:01Z jackdaniel: isBEKaml: lambda expression can be put as first form - for instance ((lambda (a) (1+ a)) 3) will result 4
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2015-08-02T14:29:53Z jackdaniel: what I want to achieve to be able to say ((complement #'foo) 4) ; (for instance)
2015-08-02T14:30:37Z nyef: And this is what FUNCALL is for, surely?
2015-08-02T14:31:00Z ggole: funcall may be a bit verbose, but it isn't exactly hard to use
2015-08-02T14:31:10Z jackdaniel: nyef: yes, but it's far uglier, but usable
2015-08-02T14:32:01Z ggole: I find the distinction between labels and let a bit annoying too, but again, not difficult to deal with.
2015-08-02T14:32:48Z jackdaniel: yes, I don't consider it a flaw or anything *against* cl, just curious "why not?" :) many decisions has good racional background, tought this had also one
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2015-08-02T14:35:39Z nyef: IIRC, Scheme went in the direction that you're looking for.
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2015-08-02T14:42:08Z sigjuice_: I am writing a program to periodically scrape information (uptime, signal status etc.) from my cable modem's web interface.  Any suggestions on how to store the fetched data which looks like this? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eWqi8AZU
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2015-08-02T14:43:40Z native_killer: split on new line
2015-08-02T14:43:45Z native_killer: then split on |
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2015-08-02T14:45:26Z sigjuice_: The paste was to show what the data looks like.  I am already able to parse the information into lists and vectors using lquery.
2015-08-02T14:47:00Z native_killer: use json, save it to file
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2015-08-02T14:51:38Z jackdaniel: nyef: something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152827#1 (note, that it depends on named readtables)
2015-08-02T14:52:00Z jackdaniel: so it is achievable with CL, needs little readtable magic tough
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2015-08-02T14:54:05Z jackdaniel: what only proofs how versatile language cl is :)
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2015-08-02T14:57:41Z sigjuice_: native_killer: thanks. json looks reasonable. So something like an array of [current_time, uptime, downstream, upstream] where upstream and downstream are arrays of channels?
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2015-08-02T14:59:36Z jackdaniel: it also makes you safe from behaviour you were afraid (if first elt is an atom, call will be normal) - only thing (which with little effort might be get rid of) is fact, that it disobeys quote, so '((xxx 1)) will be transformed
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2015-08-02T15:08:03Z sigjuice_: also, I will be fetching this data every minute or so.  is there anything else besides json I might consider (sqlite, flat file etc)?
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2015-08-02T15:28:53Z nyef: sigjuice_: Clearly, such an important project calls for using PostgreSQL.
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2015-08-02T15:31:37Z pjb: PuercoPop: you shall use CASE or COND to select the lexical variable you want to set.
2015-08-02T15:32:53Z pjb: PuercoPop: you still need to know the mapping between the keys and the variables you want to implement.
2015-08-02T15:34:15Z sigjuice_: nyef: My main goal is to troubleshoot my intermittent internet connection.  Fetching data from web pages and storing and processing of lots of records of data is not something I am familiar with. So, I am trying to learn new stuff as I go along.
2015-08-02T15:34:27Z tsilamkep: do you all prefer circumcised or uncircumcised penises?
2015-08-02T15:34:49Z tsilamkep: I like uncircumcised penises like my mexican native indian boyfriend's 7 inch uncut cock
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2015-08-02T15:35:08Z tsilamkep: i love to pull back his foreskin with my lips and tongue and slurp all up and down it while he occasionally thrusts it deep down my throat full force and causes me to gag as it puts pressure against my windpipe and adam's apple
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2015-08-02T15:37:17Z tsilamkep: meanwhile I am rubbing my cock against his chest and running my hands up and down the sides of his body as I keep sucking him off and he keeps throbbing
2015-08-02T15:37:37Z tsilamkep: and pushing until he salty bitter load shoots out into my mouth and I slurp it all up and down the hatch and I cum all over his chest
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2015-08-02T15:51:45Z pjb: nyef: what? You would write a book to convince me of something, to propagate your ideas, and you would like, in addition to the time investment I will have to put on it, that *I* pay you?  Sorry, but if you want me to read your book, you will have to pay me at least the time I'll spend on it, and probably additionnal domages and interests!
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2015-08-02T15:56:05Z nyef: pjb: There are multiple possible reasons for writing a book, but you're only supplying a data point in favor of the idea that people who won't pay for books won't pay for books. d-:
2015-08-02T15:56:35Z pjb: It's a view point that is often ignored.
2015-08-02T15:56:55Z pjb: Of course, if your book is any book and worthwhile, I might want to pay for it.
2015-08-02T15:57:05Z pjb: (And I did bought a lot of books).
2015-08-02T15:57:17Z pjb: even after the web.
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2015-08-02T16:00:06Z z0d: nyef: what book?
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2015-08-02T16:00:42Z nyef: z0d: Whatever book, not any book in particular.
2015-08-02T16:01:48Z pjb: FFFggg might have loved to learn about irc logs…
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2015-08-02T16:02:12Z jackdaniel: minion: botsnack
2015-08-02T16:02:13Z minion: botsnack: thanks
2015-08-02T16:02:32Z pjb: I'm not sure he'll be back ever.
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2015-08-02T16:03:48Z pjb: O·) Leela.
2015-08-02T16:05:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: the reason why CL doesn't allow evaluation of the operator, is to allow for optimization: you can hardwire the JSR address (notice that unless you declare the function notinline, it can even be inlined inside the compilation-unit!  Which means, it has to be known at compilation time, which means, no run-time evaluation).
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2015-08-02T16:06:06Z jackdaniel: ok, that sounds reasonable
2015-08-02T16:06:08Z pjb: jackdaniel: if you want to change a function with (setf (symbol-function 'f) …) then you need to (declaim (notinline f)).
2015-08-02T16:08:45Z jackdaniel: hm, I wonder, what would be better - introduce special operator for transforming (form …) to (funcall form …) - for instance &(#'oddp 3) , or rather define special delimiter [#'oddp 3] ?
2015-08-02T16:08:58Z jackdaniel: (in library of course)
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2015-08-02T16:09:34Z pjb: You can do both, #\[ reading as a call to your macro. Not a special operator!
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2015-08-02T16:10:15Z pjb: jackdaniel: as an implementor, you must provide a working macro for all the new special operators you define.
2015-08-02T16:10:17Z jackdaniel: hm, if I'll define #\[ as macro, not reader macro, then [call will be read as |[CALL|
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2015-08-02T16:10:32Z pjb: #\[ is a character. Macros are named by symbols.
2015-08-02T16:11:05Z pjb: '[foo x] --> (with-lisp-1 (foo x))
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2015-08-02T16:11:39Z jackdaniel: yes, I have something like this on my repl now
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2015-08-02T16:11:52Z jackdaniel: '[foo x] --> (funcall foo x)
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2015-08-02T16:12:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: what about [(if (zerop [(if s 'sin 'cos) a)) 'identity 'not) p]?
2015-08-02T16:13:20Z shka_: is there any way to get array returned by the subsequence adjustable?
2015-08-02T16:13:23Z pjb: [(if (zerop ((if s 'sin 'cos) a)) 'identity 'not) p] : i mean.
2015-08-02T16:13:37Z pjb: shka_: what is the subsequence adjustable?
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2015-08-02T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: pjb: (FUNCALL (IF (ZEROP ((IF S 'SIN 'COS) A)) 'IDENTITY 'NOT) P)
2015-08-02T16:14:38Z pjb: jackdaniel: with-lisp-1 would walk the code and transform  ((IF S 'SIN 'COS) A) too.
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2015-08-02T16:14:58Z pjb: sigjuice_: why wouldn't you save it as sexps?
2015-08-02T16:15:12Z pjb: sigjuice_: don't do json or xml, they're more problem.
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2015-08-02T16:16:57Z francogrex: what's the cl trick to have 100 digit precision after . in this example translated from rosetta? http://paste.lisp.org/display/152831
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2015-08-02T16:18:23Z shka_: hey, can i somehow make non-adjustable array adjustable?
2015-08-02T16:18:35Z shka_: namely, array returned by the subseq
2015-08-02T16:19:07Z H4ns: shka_: no, you need to make a copy.  you can use :initial-contents (?) to extract data from the original array, though.
2015-08-02T16:19:48Z H4ns: francogrex: you can use clisp which has long floats.
2015-08-02T16:20:07Z shka_: H4ns: thanks for answer
2015-08-02T16:21:03Z H4ns: francogrex: although i'm not entirely sure whether that is the right way.  you may also need to revert to a manual solution with rationals.
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2015-08-02T16:22:28Z jackdaniel: pjb: it works as desired if s and a are bound
2015-08-02T16:22:34Z jackdaniel: but #'sin and #'cos
2015-08-02T16:22:41Z jackdaniel: also, additional [] pair
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2015-08-02T16:22:49Z jackdaniel: [(if (zerop [(if s #'sin #'cos) a]) #'identity 'not) 3])
2015-08-02T16:22:59Z jackdaniel: and #'not
2015-08-02T16:23:11Z jackdaniel: but 'sin 'cos should work to with funcall, pardon
2015-08-02T16:23:16Z jackdaniel: s/to/too/
2015-08-02T16:23:23Z jackdaniel: anyway, it works
2015-08-02T16:24:22Z jackdaniel: pjb: related definition: (defdelim #\[ #\] (first &rest args) `(funcall (lambda () ,@first) ,@args)))
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2015-08-02T16:24:57Z jackdaniel: tfu, without lambda: (defdelim #\[ #\] (first &rest args) `(funcall ,first ,@args))
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2015-08-02T16:32:28Z francogrex: ok but H4ns not standard way that is implementation independant. Could there be a bignum lib for those things?
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2015-08-02T16:49:27Z pjb: shka_: adjust-array let you turn an array into an adjustable array, but it's implementation dependent whether 1- there are any non-adjustable arrays at all, 2- the non-adjustable arrays can be mutated into adjustable arrays.  So you have to use the result of adjust-array.
2015-08-02T16:50:56Z pjb: shka_: obviously, if you asked clhs instead of #lisp you'd get the ADJUST-ARRAY answer before the MAKE-ARRAY one…
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2015-08-02T16:52:49Z pjb: jackdaniel: it just seems to be to be more baroque than with-lisp-1 (there was such a macro/codewalker written in cll a few years ago by Pascal Costanza IIRC).  It seems clearer to be to define a scope in which you have only one syntax/semantics, when you are using the same #\( character for both.
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2015-08-02T16:53:52Z jackdaniel: pjb: I disagree, using [ for each lisp-1 call is easier to read for bigger expressions, also one might want to use normal call without shadowing by lexical bindings
2015-08-02T16:54:04Z pjb: ok.
2015-08-02T16:54:06Z jackdaniel: easier in sense - for person, who is used to CL
2015-08-02T16:54:41Z pjb: But if you know some scheme, it might be easier to (with-scheme ,scheme-expression).
2015-08-02T16:55:24Z jackdaniel: yes, but I want it to be syntactic sugar for CL, not bridge for scheme code - I see usecase for with-lisp-1 obviously, but it's not what I want
2015-08-02T16:55:52Z pjb: ok.
2015-08-02T16:56:07Z pjb: Then I guess [ for funcall is a valid shorthand.
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2015-08-02T16:56:44Z jackdaniel: :-)
2015-08-02T17:02:09Z edgar-rft: francogrex: PicoLisp's floats internally are scaled integers (like in the "bc" command-line calculator)
2015-08-02T17:02:18Z edgar-rft: francogrex: Richard Fateman has written a Common Lisp bigfloat library, but it might be overkill <http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/lisp/mma4max/more/bf.lisp>
2015-08-02T17:02:28Z edgar-rft: francogrex: For the particular problem is might be easier to compute and print the digits step by step as integers.
2015-08-02T17:02:58Z pjb: If you want to use clisp long-float conformingly, you might have to use a portability library over bf.lisp.
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2015-08-02T17:05:21Z francogrex: edgar-rft: yes thanks i was just looking at the bf library. i'll need something like that for other situations than this trifling execise so it will be of use
2015-08-02T17:09:13Z jackdaniel: since ecl uses gmp anyways, extension for bigloats wouldn't be that bad
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2015-08-02T17:10:12Z nyef: ... Can we abbreviate "bigfloats" to "bloats"?
2015-08-02T17:10:20Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-02T17:34:44Z jackdaniel: (rplaca list val) is the same or faster then (setf (car list) val) ??
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2015-08-02T17:40:27Z shka_: hey, is it possible to (break) and inspect local value on the call stack with slime inspect?
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2015-08-02T17:51:13Z jackdaniel: shifty: yes, travelling call stack with M-n opens file with sourcecode (so you know it's frame you need), and local values are listed there
2015-08-02T17:51:21Z jackdaniel: shifty: ignore, mb
2015-08-02T17:51:25Z jackdaniel: shka_: ↑
2015-08-02T17:52:18Z shka_: jackdaniel: huh?
2015-08-02T17:52:22Z jackdaniel: but I'm sldb noob :p
2015-08-02T17:53:02Z jackdaniel: when you call break from inside function, sldb bumps, and you can inspect values traversing backtrace with M-n / M-p
2015-08-02T17:53:19Z jackdaniel: you can also search for functin name
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2015-08-02T17:56:04Z laughingman: Hi
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2015-08-02T17:56:28Z jackdaniel: laughingman: o/
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2015-08-02T17:57:29Z laughingman: I have started to learn lisp, I am have affinity to python web development, some java and currently programming iOS environment
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2015-08-02T17:57:56Z laughingman: How to go about learning Lisp, I setup emacs with slime and scbl
2015-08-02T17:58:10Z laughingman: *sbcl
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2015-08-02T17:59:06Z jackdaniel: laughingman: cliki.net is nice resource for libraries and has getting started page
2015-08-02T17:59:42Z jackdaniel: if you look for books, PCL and ANSI Common-Lisp are both nice resources for already-programmers
2015-08-02T17:59:51Z jackdaniel: PCL is free
2015-08-02T17:59:55Z jackdaniel: minion: tell laughingman about PCL
2015-08-02T17:59:55Z minion: laughingman: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-08-02T18:00:13Z jackdaniel: also #clnoobs channel exists
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2015-08-02T18:00:20Z laughingman: ok thanks, I am intrigued by Lisp, primarily want to learn it because I am curious
2015-08-02T18:00:56Z jackdaniel: this channel is about common-lisp, there are also other dialects, you may try #scheme for scheme and #clojure for clojure
2015-08-02T18:01:07Z jackdaniel: and #racket for racket
2015-08-02T18:01:17Z jackdaniel: but common lisp is the best ;-)
2015-08-02T18:01:23Z laughingman: :D
2015-08-02T18:01:35Z jackdaniel: people on these channels will there you the other thing, but that would be a lie ^_^
2015-08-02T18:01:37Z laughingman: do you guys use lisp at work
2015-08-02T18:01:46Z laughingman: lol
2015-08-02T18:01:56Z jackdaniel: well, some do, some doesn't
2015-08-02T18:02:10Z jackdaniel: I've personally started my own company lately and I'm using it
2015-08-02T18:02:32Z laughingman: what domain are you using it ?
2015-08-02T18:02:36Z jackdaniel: but it is perfectly suitable for real-world applications
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2015-08-02T18:02:47Z jackdaniel: well, mostly embedded devices
2015-08-02T18:02:56Z laughingman: why lisp?
2015-08-02T18:03:05Z laughingman: I mean your choice to use it
2015-08-02T18:03:09Z jackdaniel: I like it :)
2015-08-02T18:03:33Z laughingman: does it allow easier abstraction than other languages? I mean reduce verbosity
2015-08-02T18:03:36Z jackdaniel: it gives powerful tools into your hands - step learning curve is a downside tough - it's hard to master
2015-08-02T18:03:51Z beach: laughingman: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2015-08-02T18:04:11Z jackdaniel: yes, you can create utilities, which fit your problem
2015-08-02T18:04:22Z jackdaniel: and reduce bloat of code needed to create it
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2015-08-02T18:05:25Z laughingman: oh .. thanks beach
2015-08-02T18:05:38Z beach: No problem.
2015-08-02T18:05:41Z laughingman: and jackdaniel
2015-08-02T18:05:50Z jackdaniel: ha, I produce myself and got *second* thanks, not *first* :D:D
2015-08-02T18:05:55Z jackdaniel: you're welcome :)
2015-08-02T18:05:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: rplaca doesn't return the same thing as (setf (car list) val)
2015-08-02T18:06:02Z laughingman: stack
2015-08-02T18:06:18Z pjb: jackdaniel: otherwise, an implementation can compile both expressions to the same thing.
2015-08-02T18:06:23Z jackdaniel: pjb: yes, I mean calling it for it's destructive doing
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2015-08-02T18:06:46Z shka_: hmmm
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2015-08-02T18:07:01Z jackdaniel: pjb: yes, that's why I used phrasing "the same or faster"
2015-08-02T18:07:16Z shka_: i think i stumbled at something interesting
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2015-08-02T18:08:11Z pjb: jackdaniel: you asked a question. The answer is implementation dependant. You may implement it as you want, faster, same or slower.
2015-08-02T18:08:22Z pjb: If you're lazy, you might implement it same.
2015-08-02T18:08:27Z beach: shka_: What's that?
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2015-08-02T18:08:36Z shka_: it is related to clos
2015-08-02T18:08:45Z shka_: i have class branch-node and leaf-node
2015-08-02T18:08:58Z shka_: and basic-node that is basicly superclass for both
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2015-08-02T18:09:11Z shka_: i had method child-insert
2015-08-02T18:09:37Z shka_: by mistake i made it for leaf-node and not for the basic-node
2015-08-02T18:09:43Z jackdaniel: pjb: ok
2015-08-02T18:10:11Z shka_: and out of the sudden, i realized that this method was somehow turning my branch-nodes into-leaf nodes
2015-08-02T18:10:26Z pjb: And while we talk about rplaca, notice that in emacs lisp it doesn't return the cons, but the new car.
2015-08-02T18:10:27Z shka_: needless to say, i was surprised to see this
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2015-08-02T18:10:45Z pjb: (if you try to port el->cl or cl->el).
2015-08-02T18:11:21Z jackdaniel: pjb: no, just write small utility (bulast*), and after sketch I want to make it as roboust as possible
2015-08-02T18:12:04Z pjb: butlast?
2015-08-02T18:12:32Z jackdaniel: hm, butlast, but as second value returns reminder (rest of the list)
2015-08-02T18:12:43Z pjb: right.
2015-08-02T18:12:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: notice, as an implementer, you are allowed to extend cl:butlast to do that.
2015-08-02T18:12:57Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152848
2015-08-02T18:13:29Z pjb: I mean, butlast + additional value, not destruct the list.
2015-08-02T18:13:34Z beach: shka_: That can happen, but only if you do CHANGE-CLASS.
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2015-08-02T18:13:59Z shka_: laughingman: there is also book from Norvig
2015-08-02T18:14:06Z shka_: really good if you ask me
2015-08-02T18:14:18Z shka_: beach: yeah, but all i do is to vector-push here
2015-08-02T18:14:46Z pjb: (defun butlast* (list &optional (n 1)) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:nsplit-list list n :from-end t))
2015-08-02T18:15:02Z laughingman: shka_ I will check that out, started PCL
2015-08-02T18:15:03Z beach: shka_: vector-push turns instances of some class into instances of some other class?  That sounds like a serious defect in your Common Lisp system.
2015-08-02T18:15:07Z resttime: what purpose is the % when it goes before the symbol? i think it's a style which indicates it's a CLOS slot, but i'm not sure
2015-08-02T18:15:31Z pjb: jackdaniel: but that's a case where you might want to read Beach's paper about :from-end processing.
2015-08-02T18:15:37Z Oladon: resttime: PCL says it indicates a "lower-level" symbol
2015-08-02T18:15:41Z shka_: beach: yeah, i must double check that
2015-08-02T18:15:55Z shka_: i don't expect to see such a outstanding bug in the sbcl implementation
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2015-08-02T18:16:19Z beach: resttime: The % character traditionally indicates "danger".  I use it for slot names, because I don't want client code to use slot names at all.
2015-08-02T18:16:26Z jackdaniel: pjb: I think my solution (nbutlast* at least) is pretty good, because it doesn't have to traverse whole list if n is big
2015-08-02T18:16:33Z jackdaniel: but I'll read it of course
2015-08-02T18:16:35Z jackdaniel: :-)
2015-08-02T18:16:45Z pjb: jackdaniel: how do you know the list is not bigger?
2015-08-02T18:16:58Z resttime: Oladon, beach, thanks
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2015-08-02T18:17:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: bigger then what?
2015-08-02T18:17:14Z beach: resttime: In addition, I don't export those symbols, so client code that wants to use such a symbol would have to write package::%slot-name and the :: indicates danger as well, so this is double danger.
2015-08-02T18:17:32Z pjb: jackdaniel: than n. Also, it's a shame to call copy-list and not have the length of the list too.
2015-08-02T18:18:02Z jackdaniel: if (> n (length list)), then it returns whole list (when it reaches end)
2015-08-02T18:18:21Z jackdaniel: yeah, that copy-list call is a pita, I've concentrated on nbutlast* for now
2015-08-02T18:18:37Z pjb: jackdaniel: and your functions use the n parameter contrary to cl:butlast.
2015-08-02T18:18:49Z pjb: jackdaniel: So it is wrong, as per its docstring.
2015-08-02T18:19:14Z jackdaniel: contrary?
2015-08-02T18:19:40Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2015-08-02T18:20:35Z pjb: Oh, sorry, I misread your code.
2015-08-02T18:20:41Z jackdaniel: ok, I've scared me :P
2015-08-02T18:21:10Z jackdaniel: you've °
2015-08-02T18:21:40Z pjb: No, nbutlast* is good.
2015-08-02T18:21:49Z pjb: butlast* will return also a copy of the tail is it wanted?
2015-08-02T18:22:29Z francogrex: bf.lisp is a very good bigfloats package, portable. Maybe should be made a core package
2015-08-02T18:22:55Z pjb: add an asd file and ask inclusion in quicklisp.
2015-08-02T18:23:04Z jackdaniel: pjb: yes, but I'll improve docstring to specifically mention that
2015-08-02T18:24:30Z francogrex: now though to convert a float to bigfloat one has to do something like (mma:bigfloat-convert 3.0)
2015-08-02T18:24:30Z jackdaniel: hm, docstring is good I think, because removed elements are from the copy
2015-08-02T18:25:18Z pjb: Use "fresh list". "fresh" is key word for newly consed.
2015-08-02T18:25:20Z francogrex: pjb: a good idea to make it a ql lib, I was hoping to work it more
2015-08-02T18:26:11Z francogrex: like make any representation like 3.0B0 of type bigfloat instead of explicitly writing a coerce
2015-08-02T18:26:15Z pjb: jackdaniel: now, you may try a different version.
2015-08-02T18:26:16Z jackdaniel: also do* is unnecessary, do will do (^_^)
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2015-08-02T18:27:00Z jackdaniel: different version?
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2015-08-02T18:33:07Z pjb: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/+39XS/1
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2015-08-02T18:33:31Z pjb: in this version, we also walk the list twice, but it may be in a way that's friendlier to caches.
2015-08-02T18:34:04Z pjb: well,  we both walk it (- (* (length list) 2) n) times.
2015-08-02T18:35:03Z pjb: Oops s/let/let*?
2015-08-02T18:35:30Z pjb: Obviously, I didn't test it before pasting.
2015-08-02T18:36:43Z pjb: jackdaniel: in general it wouldn't matter, but I think it's safe to take the assumption of locality of cons cells, notably on big lists, and therefore it may be worthwhile to try to optimize those cache accesses.
2015-08-02T18:37:10Z pjb: I'm not sure entirely on which would be the best however.
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2015-08-02T18:39:16Z jackdaniel: pjb: thanks, I'll analize tomorrow - guests came
2015-08-02T18:40:26Z jackdaniel: I think that second call might be cheaper, if we would create nthcdr* , which also increments counter and returns length as second value
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2015-08-02T18:41:07Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-bind (lure head-length) (nthcdr* n list) …)
2015-08-02T18:41:55Z pjb: Well not really because we get the length of the rest of the list, so we have to walk it, and this is after nthcdr anyways.  No need to do both in the same function.
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2015-08-02T18:42:51Z jackdaniel: right, misread
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2015-08-02T18:44:28Z pjb: While the temptation to give useful additionnal results (eg. length returned by copy-list) may be significant, on the other hand a conforming program couldn't use it (without re-implementing it for the other implementations anyways).
2015-08-02T18:44:37Z pjb: But this may be the subject of a CDR.
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2015-08-02T18:51:15Z knobo: Why does this look like it is subtracting 4, not 2?  (disassemble (lambda (v) (declare (optimize speed (debug 0) (safety 0)) (type fixnum v)) (setq  v (- v 2))))
2015-08-02T18:51:31Z knobo: in sbcl
2015-08-02T18:51:32Z PuercoPop: pjb: that is what I ended up doing. It was easier to do.
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2015-08-02T18:53:54Z pjb: PuercoPop: notice you can wrap variables in closures, if you want to change then in an inner function call: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp (or even in an outer one, which would be safe in CL contrarily to C).
2015-08-02T18:53:55Z knobo: like this: SUB RAX, 4
2015-08-02T18:54:21Z pjb: knobo: because how fixnums are represented.
2015-08-02T18:54:36Z pjb: Namely, there are two tag bits set to 0 in the least significant bits.
2015-08-02T18:54:47Z pjb: or one tag bit.
2015-08-02T18:55:18Z zacts: http://projects.csail.mit.edu/wiki/pub/JoeNear/FernMonad/frons.pdf
2015-08-02T18:55:28Z zacts: ^ just fyi. thought others here may find it interesting too
2015-08-02T18:55:35Z zacts: I linked it in another channel
2015-08-02T18:55:43Z zacts: it's from a talk by Guy Steele Jr.
2015-08-02T18:56:08Z zacts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP7P_HlcBk
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2015-08-02T18:56:24Z zacts: ^ his slide describes this paper as 'encapsulating non-determinism'
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2015-08-02T18:56:43Z zacts: I'm still learning about frons and the fern data type myself
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2015-08-02T18:56:49Z knobo: pjb:are fixnums dou
2015-08-02T18:57:02Z knobo: pjb: how are fixnum represented?
2015-08-02T18:57:09Z zacts: but I guess it represents non-determinism as a list, and provides frons (the cons equivalent for this fern structure), etc...
2015-08-02T18:57:26Z zacts: ok, so hopefully it may prove interesting to others. /me idles again now......
2015-08-02T18:57:27Z pjb: knobo: depends on the implementation.  But usually, there's a few tag bits set to 0 in the low order bits.
2015-08-02T18:58:05Z pjb: knobo: this is the most efficient representation since it allows to do + an - without changing the tag bits, and * and by adding an ash (after or before) to restore the alignment.
2015-08-02T18:58:43Z pjb: knobo: sometimes the tag bits are put in the high order bits, but it's more difficult, eg. the sign bit is not the msb anymore, you have to mask out the tags, and put them back, etc.
2015-08-02T18:59:21Z knobo: pjb: how can I find more out about these tags?
2015-08-02T18:59:25Z pjb: knobo: also, with pointers with an odd value in the low order bit, you can easily get the address with an odd offset, eg -1 for car, 3 for cdr.
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2015-08-02T18:59:37Z pjb: knobo: in the source of the implementations.
2015-08-02T18:59:47Z knobo: ok.
2015-08-02T19:00:37Z pjb: knobo: for javascript (but also would be applicable elsewhere) there's the proposal to put pointers and integers as NAN floating points.
2015-08-02T19:01:18Z pjb: So, the NAN flag and field would server as tag bit, and when the double is a float, then it would come for free (without a box).
2015-08-02T19:01:29Z pjb: In a way, ieee doubles are pre-boxed :-)
2015-08-02T19:01:46Z pjb: knobo: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TagBit
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2015-08-02T19:03:18Z pjb: knobo: usually there's a fixed number of tag bits for all values, but one can also optimize more by using several "tag values" for the same type. This is why sbcl uses only 2 tag bits apparently for fixnums; actually, it has 3-bit tag fields, and it uses two values, #b000 and #b100 for fixnums (even and odd fixnums).
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2015-08-02T19:07:13Z knobo: interesting
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2015-08-02T19:11:34Z pjb: knobo: on MacOS (not MacOSX), since the address bus was physically limited to 24 bit, and memory management metadats was stored in the high byte of pointers, it was natural to use a 8-bit tag in the high byte. Then fixnums would be 24-bit too, and slower.
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2015-08-02T19:14:16Z pjb: knobo: on the other hand, in LISP 1.5 on 7090, since the processor had 36-bit words, and decoded instructions with fields or 3-bit opcode, 15-bit decrement part, 3-bit opcode modifier, 15-bit address part, it was natural to use 18 bit for values, 15-bit data, and 3-bit tags. ;-) And also, to have functions named CAR and CDR to point to different parts :-)
2015-08-02T19:14:30Z pjb: s/or/of/
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2015-08-02T19:16:21Z p_l: (and long-forgotten CTR and CPR, along with four-argument CONS)
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2015-08-02T19:19:30Z pjb: ctr and cpr are those 3-bit fields.
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2015-08-02T19:19:44Z pjb: cpr ("Contents of the Prefix part of Register number"), and ctr ("Contents of the Tag part of Register number").
2015-08-02T19:19:44Z p_l: t/act
2015-08-02T19:19:46Z p_l: argh
2015-08-02T19:20:01Z p_l: pjb: yeah
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2015-08-02T19:20:18Z p_l: but it's a rather forgotten element that "CONS" used to have all four of them as arguments :)
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2015-08-02T19:22:13Z knobo: Ok, so I got past the first assembler operation :)
2015-08-02T19:22:23Z pjb: p_l: indeed.
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2015-08-02T19:22:56Z p_l: makes a disturbing amount of sense when you find out that you could use the original CONS to create single CPU instructions
2015-08-02T19:23:56Z pjb: and when you know there was a XEC instruction to execute one CPU instruction found in memory.
2015-08-02T19:24:13Z pjb: the 7090 was a Lisp Machine.
2015-08-02T19:24:19Z Bike: "jump but then nevermind"
2015-08-02T19:24:34Z p_l: pjb: or maybe the Lisp is a 7090 language?
2015-08-02T19:25:38Z knobo: Then it looks like RCX and RBX is moved back and forth. That semes unnecessary.
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2015-08-02T19:30:09Z pjb: p_l: in FLPL, this 4-value cons was called: XLWORDF(JSP,JD,JA,JT).
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2015-08-02T19:31:22Z p_l: pjb: I remember seeing a listing that shows CONS, CAR, CDR, CTR and CPR as assembly macros used not just in lisp
2015-08-02T19:31:47Z francogrex: here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152831#1
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2015-08-02T19:32:53Z pjb: p_l: check http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/flpl.html
2015-08-02T19:33:05Z pjb: PDF on http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/
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2015-08-02T19:50:14Z jackdaniel: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152848#2 (note butlast* without copy-list, and returning part of original list as second value, not fresh list)
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2015-08-02T19:52:33Z jackdaniel: and wrt implementing copy-list* over and over again - that's what are libraries for, not how many projects use alexandria for instance
2015-08-02T19:52:50Z jackdaniel: just to not be forced to reimplement (ensure-car obj) over and over again
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2015-08-02T19:54:32Z jackdaniel: your implementation is less atomic, hence easier to read - if our nbutlast* are equally fast, then yours is better for that reason
2015-08-02T19:57:59Z jackdaniel: s/not/note/
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2015-08-02T20:39:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: you'd have to benchmark it on specific lists on specific hardware to note a difference and which of my or your nbutlast* is better, since we are dealing with cache here.
2015-08-02T20:40:24Z jebes: Cache? Linked Lists? Oh my...
2015-08-02T20:40:35Z pjb: jebes: of course.
2015-08-02T20:40:47Z jebes: RIP cache coherncy.
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2015-08-02T20:41:03Z pjb: Not at all, notably not for list obtained by copy-list or such.
2015-08-02T20:41:17Z jebes: Oh, I guess that makes sense
2015-08-02T20:41:25Z pjb: jebes: and notably not we are only dealing with the CDR, not the CAR.
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2015-08-02T20:42:01Z pjb: Don't listen to Stroustrup about linked list, he knows nothing about them.
2015-08-02T20:43:21Z pjb: jebes: who says that copy-list and make-list are not implemented as make-vector internally?
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2015-08-02T21:00:10Z jebes: pjb: well with a naive implementation with malloc, linked lists will have horrible performance. But yeah, that Stroustrup rant was hilarious
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2015-08-02T21:05:04Z BenceF: hi! i'm new to lisp. I have a function called RANDOM-OPERATION if I call it it evaluates for example to #'+ but if I do then (funcall * 3 4) I get "The value #'+ is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)."
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2015-08-02T21:05:29Z BenceF: but if i just do (funcall #'+ 3 4) that works. what am I missing?
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2015-08-02T21:06:05Z BenceF: I'm using SBCL 1.2.5 if that matters
2015-08-02T21:06:06Z pjb: BenceF: you have to distinguish whether it returns #'+ or #<function cl:+>
2015-08-02T21:06:20Z pjb: BenceF: #'+ is a list containing cl:function and cl:+.
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2015-08-02T21:06:45Z pjb: So how did you write random-operation?  did you quote #'+ ?
2015-08-02T21:07:04Z BenceF: (elt '(#'+ #'- #'/ #'*) (random 4))
2015-08-02T21:07:11Z pjb: Yes, you did it!
2015-08-02T21:07:25Z pjb: (elt (load-time-value (list #'+ #'- #'/ #'*)) (random 4))
2015-08-02T21:07:35Z BenceF: ohh thanks
2015-08-02T21:07:44Z pjb: or (elt '(+ - / *)) (random 4))
2015-08-02T21:08:11Z pjb: Conforming code cannot make anything that would make (funcall '+ …) be different from (funcall #'+ …).
2015-08-02T21:08:22Z pjb: assuming cl:+
2015-08-02T21:09:18Z BenceF: the list solution seems more explicit
2015-08-02T21:09:26Z pjb: BenceF: you may also prefer to use (vector #'+ …) or  #(+ …) since indexing vectors is faster than lists.
2015-08-02T21:09:45Z pjb: (elt (load-time-value (vector #'+ #'- #'/ #'*)) (random 4))
2015-08-02T21:09:50Z BenceF: thanks
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2015-08-02T21:28:21Z BenceF: is there a function to cycle a list non-destructivly?
2015-08-02T21:28:53Z pjb: No.
2015-08-02T21:29:00Z Bike: (defun cycle (list) (let ((list (copy-list list))) (nconc list list) list)) like that?
2015-08-02T21:29:13Z pjb: There's too much ambiguity in what that would be.
2015-08-02T21:30:38Z pjb: Already, (nconc list list) is not conforming: list---each but the last must be a list (which might be a dotted list but must not be a circular list); the last list may be any object.
2015-08-02T21:30:38Z pjb:  
2015-08-02T21:31:12Z pjb: It is quite possible (nconc list list), when list is bound to a cons cell, will never return.
2015-08-02T21:31:12Z Bike: eh? but the lists being passed aren't circular.
2015-08-02T21:31:18Z pjb: But anyways,  it's not conforming.
2015-08-02T21:31:54Z pjb: Bike: yeah, and what about once nconc did the first cons cell modification?
2015-08-02T21:32:11Z Bike: so what? that's during the function call, the thing you quoted is about the arguments
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2015-08-02T21:32:48Z BenceF: (let ((lst (list 1 2 3))) (nconc (cdr lst) (list (car lst))))
2015-08-02T21:32:51Z BenceF: like this
2015-08-02T21:33:09Z pjb: Bike: on the other hand, you might be right, because nconc's algorith is actually specified!
2015-08-02T21:33:14Z pjb:  (nconc list-1 list-2) ==  (progn (rplacd (last list-1) list-2) list-1)
2015-08-02T21:33:15Z pjb:  
2015-08-02T21:33:21Z pjb: So it should work.
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2015-08-02T21:33:57Z pjb: BenceF: the question is why you want that?
2015-08-02T21:34:11Z pjb: There's probably a better way to do it.
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2015-08-02T21:34:49Z pjb: You may be able to use (append list list) and process it, without relying on circular lists.  A few days ago we had a case like that.
2015-08-02T21:35:28Z BenceF: yeah maybe. i want to permute a call. like I have (list 'a 'b 'c) and I wnat to call (f 'a 'b 'c) and (f 'b 'c 'a) etc.
2015-08-02T21:36:14Z Bike: what about a c b?
2015-08-02T21:37:18Z BenceF: just do the same on the reverse of the list :) might not be the best solution though
2015-08-02T21:37:41Z pjb: nope.
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2015-08-02T21:37:46Z Bike: not really, no, it won't work for more than three items in a list
2015-08-02T21:37:52Z pjb: a c b is a permutation, not a circular rotation.
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2015-08-02T21:38:06Z pjb: but you said permute. not rotate.
2015-08-02T21:38:15Z pjb: So now we have doubts about what you want?
2015-08-02T21:38:16Z BenceF: i know but i have three items
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2015-08-02T21:38:34Z pjb: So, 3 rotations, or 6 permutations?
2015-08-02T21:39:15Z pjb: Also, if you have only 3 items, and want rotations, you can use rotatef. (progn (f a b c) (rotatef a b c) (f a b c) (rotatef a b c) (f a b c))
2015-08-02T21:39:22Z BenceF: if we can do in one swoop i'll be happy with the 6 permutations
2015-08-02T21:39:34Z pjb: It's not the same algorithm!
2015-08-02T21:39:40Z BenceF: otherwise the two times 3 rotations will work the same way
2015-08-02T21:40:38Z pjb: Check permutations in http://paste.lisp.org/display/142307
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2015-08-02T21:41:30Z pjb: (permutations '(a b c)) --> ((a b c) (a c b) (b a c) (b c a) (c a b) (c b a))
2015-08-02T21:42:06Z pjb: (mapcar (lambda (args) (apply 'f args)) (permutations (list a b c)))
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2015-08-02T21:44:12Z BenceF: found it. thanks
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2015-08-02T21:49:20Z BenceF: general question: if i do a macro which evaluates to a lambda like (defmacro my-macro `(lambda (arg) ... should i protect arg with a gensym?
2015-08-02T21:49:51Z pjb: Depends.
2015-08-02T21:50:29Z pjb: Your example is invalid since you don't give a lambda list to the macro (other than the backquote form whic would make it unconforming a lambda-list anyways).
2015-08-02T21:50:32Z BenceF: missed the args for the macro but hope it is still understandable
2015-08-02T21:50:40Z pjb: Still depends.
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2015-08-02T21:50:54Z pjb: What's in the args for the macro? How do you use them?
2015-08-02T21:51:04Z pjb: And formost, what do you want to do with them?
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2015-08-02T21:51:55Z BenceF: i expect args to be a symbol
2015-08-02T21:51:55Z pjb: Lambda introduces a lexical scope, and the new variables will shadow variables with the same name from the outer scope.  You may want to do that, or you may want to avoid it.
2015-08-02T21:52:10Z pjb: But the point is what do you put in that new lexical scope?
2015-08-02T21:52:20Z pjb: If you don't put anything then the shadowing doesn't matter.
2015-08-02T21:52:32Z BenceF: ahh i get it
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2015-08-02T23:57:54Z goglosh: you know, there I one thing about lisp that keeps me from actually using it
2015-08-02T23:58:02Z goglosh: I have no idea what to do
2015-08-02T23:58:41Z Bike: write programs?
2015-08-02T23:58:58Z goglosh: well yeah
2015-08-02T23:59:10Z goglosh: but I don't know *what* kind of program
2015-08-02T23:59:32Z goglosh: I mean I could do what I'd do in another language but then it'd seem
2015-08-03T00:00:00Z Bike: programming for no reason is boring. if you don't have anything to do that would be aided by a computer, no point in programming.
2015-08-03T00:00:13Z goglosh: well... for fun
2015-08-03T00:00:15Z goglosh: :D
2015-08-03T00:00:32Z goglosh: and yeah that's it too, what I do most is text processing and I do that with awk so
2015-08-03T00:00:36Z pjb: goglosh: write a game, write a tool.
2015-08-03T00:00:51Z pjb: what do you do in other languages?
2015-08-03T00:01:08Z pjb: goglosh: the point of using lisp is to be able to do it more efficiently than with other languages.
2015-08-03T00:01:13Z pjb: Also, more agreably.
2015-08-03T00:01:20Z goglosh: maybe that's true
2015-08-03T00:01:36Z goglosh: When I learned C I liked to go through the Project Euler challenges
2015-08-03T00:01:44Z goglosh: but those are in trivial in any language other than C
2015-08-03T00:01:45Z pjb: Do the same with lisp!
2015-08-03T00:01:50Z pjb: Not really :-)
2015-08-03T00:01:53Z Bike: project euler is certainly not trivial
2015-08-03T00:01:53Z goglosh: are trivial*
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2015-08-03T00:02:07Z goglosh: maybe I can try the more advanced ones, yeah
2015-08-03T00:02:55Z goglosh: but really to sum the digits of 100 factorial would be a one-liner, you know? not much of a challenge
2015-08-03T00:02:58Z goglosh: well maybe it is lemme try
2015-08-03T00:03:09Z pjb: Now, project euler projects are a little special, because the obvious solution in lisp often is not efficient enough for the judge.
2015-08-03T00:03:26Z pjb: So you still have to think a little, and learn how to write efficient code in lisp.
2015-08-03T00:03:29Z Bike: You can write a dumb solution, but half the point of euler is to write something that only takes a few seconds to run.
2015-08-03T00:03:53Z goglosh: never thought of it that way
2015-08-03T00:04:47Z goglosh: Ima try one
2015-08-03T00:05:39Z Bike: i don't remember many euler problems, but for example, you could solve "enumerate the prime factors of 100!" by writing enough to do (factorize (factorial 100)), but there are way better ways, and finding those is where you learn something.
2015-08-03T00:07:10Z goglosh: well.. I'll give it a try
2015-08-03T00:07:31Z goglosh: now I'm on the other side of the mirror, and I don't know where would I start optimizing that code
2015-08-03T00:07:39Z goglosh: :P
2015-08-03T00:07:53Z Bike: The counting the digits one?
2015-08-03T00:07:58Z Bike: sum them, i mean
2015-08-03T00:08:36Z Lycurgus: i wonder why I had l4 microkernel stuff filed under lisp, there's no known relation is there?
2015-08-03T00:09:20Z pjb: there's a lisp implementation named l4.
2015-08-03T00:09:31Z Lycurgus: hmm
2015-08-03T00:09:41Z pjb: or at least, whose tarball was named l4.tar some time.
2015-08-03T00:09:45Z goglosh: Bike I meant the optimizing  factors one. But I'll manage
2015-08-03T00:10:03Z Lycurgus: and an ECL that runs l4 apparently
2015-08-03T00:10:04Z pjb: Perhaps it was lispf4 written in fortran?
2015-08-03T00:10:10Z Bike: n! has the factors of 1, plus the factors of 2, plus the factors of 3, etc.
2015-08-03T00:10:38Z Bike: for summing digits you could think like, well, i can take out the multiples of ten since that just makes zeroes, and also pairs of twos and fives...
2015-08-03T00:11:09Z Lycurgus: "l4" the lisp thing is actually forth
2015-08-03T00:11:16Z Lycurgus: implemented in lisp
2015-08-03T00:11:36Z pjb: Lycurgus: alternatively, perhaps you planed to do a rewrite of l4 in lisp?
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2015-08-03T00:12:09Z goglosh: Bike thanks, I'll give it a shot
2015-08-03T00:13:51Z Lycurgus: pjb, well I'd expose it in the facilities that are built on it and a lisp os/system image
2015-08-03T00:14:39Z Lycurgus: and a build of sbcl for cgc and stuff
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2015-08-03T01:38:24Z kristof: pretty sure someone was talking about making a lisp operating system based on L4
2015-08-03T01:38:30Z kristof: Maybe two years ago
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2015-08-03T01:39:08Z p_l: kristof: I suggested using L4 several times, yes
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2015-08-03T01:40:11Z kristof: That must have been you, then :)
2015-08-03T01:40:20Z p_l: heh
2015-08-03T01:40:21Z kristof: I think I might have engaged you in conversation about it too but I don't know.
2015-08-03T01:40:31Z p_l: I unfortunately don't keep logs
2015-08-03T01:40:35Z p_l: Might have to change that :)
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2015-08-03T01:56:42Z PuercoPop: pjb: what I was trying to accomplish was way simpler than that https://github.com/PuercoPop/cl-knowledge-base/blob/master/src/cl-knowledge-base.lisp#L28
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2015-08-03T03:08:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-03T03:13:16Z p_l: 'morning………
2015-08-03T03:13:44Z knobo: morning
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2015-08-03T03:24:19Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-08-03T06:25:55Z skrue: in lispworks: is there a way to get rid of the lispworks logo in the capi dialogs?
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2015-08-03T06:34:07Z Bike: that sounds like something you'd ask the vendor about. might not be able to remove the logo in a free version, you know, gotta getcha somehow
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2015-08-03T06:37:27Z jackdaniel: hue hue, my fiancee had fabular dream that she was a hashtable ^_^
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2015-08-03T06:38:02Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-03T06:42:32Z z0d: how can one dream that?
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2015-08-03T06:45:34Z jackdaniel: well, you have keys and values to store
2015-08-03T06:45:43Z jackdaniel: and get values given keys
2015-08-03T06:45:54Z jackdaniel: dreams might be abstract apparently :)
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2015-08-03T07:13:04Z Zhivago: Maybe it's like that feeding fetish.
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2015-08-03T07:13:25Z Zhivago: Watching her expand as you keep shoveling stuff in.
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2015-08-03T07:14:26Z Firedancer: My friend dreamed some years ago the he was mathematical equation
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2015-08-03T08:21:19Z jackdaniel: all equations run in panic screaming "differential comes, differential comes", only one stands still and smiles. "Who the fuck are you?" - asks differential. "I'm e^x" - answers arogantly equation. Differential smiles with cruelty: "I'm dz/dy"
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2015-08-03T10:57:13Z Egemge: hi, i have a question about formats
2015-08-03T10:57:21Z Egemge: what exactly does the ~,,2f format do?
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2015-08-03T11:06:46Z jackdaniel: specbot: format
2015-08-03T11:06:50Z jackdaniel: hm
2015-08-03T11:08:16Z jackdaniel: it prints float number * 10^2, so * 100
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2015-08-03T11:09:54Z jackdaniel: (format "~,,2f" 0.1) ; -> 10.0
2015-08-03T11:10:57Z jackdaniel: what is hilarious testcase showing outraging bug in ecl, if both first parameters are ommited it ignores k factor
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2015-08-03T11:11:13Z jackdaniel: bug which is introduced by myself probably ;p
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2015-08-03T11:37:55Z pjb: ccl has the bug too.
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2015-08-03T12:07:32Z hydan: why does this work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/152909 if I put #'five-times, it is producing undefined function error.
2015-08-03T12:13:20Z antoszka: Because there's not function named five-times – so #'five-times which is a shorthand to (function five-times) has no reason to work.
2015-08-03T12:13:26Z antoszka: s/not/no/
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2015-08-03T12:14:02Z z0d: hydan: five-times is a variable
2015-08-03T12:14:18Z antoszka: That happens to contain a funcallable object.
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2015-08-03T12:19:57Z Egemge: i have a function that takes a parameter A, and writes YES if A<20 or else writes NO. what do i need to do in order to make my funciton read parameter A from the command line?
2015-08-03T12:20:31Z hydan: antoszka, z0d: I see, not the funcallable object itself, just a pointer to it. so after eval the actual funcallable object gets supplied to funcall. but if it were say #'+ it would have to be in that way because + is the actual funcallable object.
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2015-08-03T12:21:52Z z0d: ah, right. didn't notice LAMBDA
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2015-08-03T12:28:23Z antoszka: hydan: consider this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152910
2015-08-03T12:29:09Z hydan: antoszka: yes, just did that. it is Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2 thing right?
2015-08-03T12:29:10Z Zhivago: egemge: There is no command line in CL -- see what your implementation provides to access it.
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2015-08-03T12:29:30Z antoszka: hydan: It's a Common Lisp thing. But yes, Common Lisp is a Lisp-2.
2015-08-03T12:29:49Z antoszka: hydan: A symbol actually has a good number more slots.
2015-08-03T12:30:17Z Zhivago: Meaning that CL isn't really a lisp-2. Not that lisp-2 means much.
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2015-08-03T12:30:45Z antoszka: Doesn't mean much, true.
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2015-08-03T12:31:05Z antoszka: hydan: Try autocompleting symbol-<something> functions.
2015-08-03T12:31:11Z antoszka: In your CL environment.
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2015-08-03T12:31:40Z pjb: Bad internet in Romania?
2015-08-03T12:32:42Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: ??
2015-08-03T12:32:46Z pjb: hydan: no, + is a symbol.  It is not the "actual" funcallable object.
2015-08-03T12:32:54Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: Egemge.
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2015-08-03T12:33:22Z pjb: hydan: the actual funcallable object is the result of the evaluation of (function +) or (symbol-function '+) or (fdefinition '+).
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2015-08-03T12:34:23Z pjb: hydan: it happens that funcall (and apply) take a function designator.  + designate the function obtained by evaluating (symbol-function '+). (which, if + is CL:+, shall be the same as (CL:FUNCTION CL:+).
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2015-08-03T12:48:22Z crocket: hi lispers
2015-08-03T12:48:34Z crocket: Someone has been writing an operating system in CommonLisp.
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2015-08-03T12:48:53Z crocket: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
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2015-08-03T12:50:22Z pjb: Yes, we know. Thanks.
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2015-08-03T12:58:44Z Firedancer: So this really is OS and not thinly disguised Emacs joke?
2015-08-03T12:59:11Z flip214 is now known as flip562
2015-08-03T12:59:15Z |3b|: yeah, emacs isn't written in common lisp anyway
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2015-08-03T12:59:32Z pjb: Firedancer: yes, it has device drivers, GUI and so on.
2015-08-03T12:59:39Z pjb: |3b|: for now :-)
2015-08-03T13:00:39Z crocket: hmm...
2015-08-03T13:01:06Z crocket: Can anyone compare and contrast common lisp and other lisp dialects such as scheme and clojure?
2015-08-03T13:01:21Z pjb: No.
2015-08-03T13:01:26Z pjb: This is not the topic of this channel.
2015-08-03T13:01:28Z pjb: Try ##lisp
2015-08-03T13:02:33Z crocket: Is Mezzano going to take off?
2015-08-03T13:02:48Z pjb: crocket: as soon as YOU start to use it and improve it.
2015-08-03T13:03:01Z crocket: pjb, hardly
2015-08-03T13:03:08Z hydan: antoszka, Zhivago, pjb: thanks. I am reading clhs about symbols/functions/closures/variables. I clearly don't understand it fully at the moment.
2015-08-03T13:03:15Z crocket: The fact that I used windows and linux hardly affected them.
2015-08-03T13:03:36Z crocket: Often, it is determined by core contributors.
2015-08-03T13:03:59Z crocket: If core contributors were welcome to outsides, Mezzano could really take off.
2015-08-03T13:04:13Z crocket: outsides -> outsiders
2015-08-03T13:04:14Z eudoxia: crocket: well, for a small project like this, the barrier to being a core contributor is rather low
2015-08-03T13:04:32Z crocket: I guess
2015-08-03T13:04:35Z crocket: generally
2015-08-03T13:04:55Z pjb: And given the earliness of the project, as soon as you use it, you will write enhancements and correct bugs, so you will have contributions to give.
2015-08-03T13:04:58Z antoszka: hydan: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf ← here's a good read about symbols and packages. Also, symbols are just a data type in Lisp and code is just a tree of symbols without any magical thing about them.
2015-08-03T13:05:11Z antoszka: hydan: Think about how they evaluate.
2015-08-03T13:05:14Z crocket: ok
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2015-08-03T13:55:33Z Vityok: what API documentation generator outputs Markdown?
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2015-08-03T13:57:02Z Vityok: or reStructuredText or Textile
2015-08-03T13:57:13Z Vityok: instead of HTML and TexInfo
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2015-08-03T14:03:02Z pjb: Good question.
2015-08-03T14:03:18Z pjb: What about pandoc -f html -t rst ?
2015-08-03T14:09:25Z Vityok: will try it, thanks
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2015-08-03T14:10:17Z jackdaniel: ok, found bogus place :)
2015-08-03T14:10:18Z Vityok: oh, it looks like a hack - generate html and then convert it to rst
2015-08-03T14:10:33Z jackdaniel: now we're one hack away from correct floats ;-)
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2015-08-03T14:15:55Z jackdaniel: and what's best of it is that bug wasn't introduced by me :-)
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2015-08-03T14:16:34Z pjb: Vityok: I was half joking: you will get bette results if you can find a documentation extractor that can write reStructured Text or MarkDown directly.
2015-08-03T14:17:11Z pjb: Vityok: alternatively, take one existing documentation extractor, and patch it to generate the format you want.
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2015-08-03T14:17:33Z pjb: I used lispdoc for my needs, since I found its source simple, readable, understandable, and modifiable by myself.
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2015-08-03T14:18:46Z pjb: Also, the documentation generation is quite modular form the parsing or sources and internal datastructures.
2015-08-03T14:19:15Z pjb: It would be trivial to add generation of something else than HTML.
2015-08-03T14:19:55Z oGMo: isn't markdown more of an input format?
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2015-08-03T14:21:06Z pjb: basically, 576 LoC over 1285 (including empty lines and comments) are consacred to the HTML generation.  It would take less to generate reStructuredText or markdown.
2015-08-03T14:21:33Z pjb: oGMo: markdown is not that nice. For me, it's an output format, since github requires it instead of reStructured Text.
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2015-08-03T14:21:56Z oGMo: i thought GH also did html
2015-08-03T14:22:18Z oGMo: i.e. for README, not just gh pages and whatnot
2015-08-03T14:22:38Z oGMo: (apparently not)
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2015-08-03T14:23:04Z oGMo: pjb: it _does_ appear to support .rst for readme though!
2015-08-03T14:23:16Z pjb: It's a recent addition then.
2015-08-03T14:23:39Z oGMo: 2010!
2015-08-03T14:23:56Z oGMo: which, granted, seems pretty recent to me, but
2015-08-03T14:24:01Z pjb: Well, my README is named that, and contains -*- mode: -*- line.
2015-08-03T14:24:08Z pjb: If they can't respect usual conventions :-)
2015-08-03T14:24:52Z oGMo: supports .org though, which is probably more interesting
2015-08-03T14:25:05Z foom: pjb: maybe they only support VIM modelines
2015-08-03T14:25:42Z pjb: I've only one .org file. my big ~/notes.txt.
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2015-08-03T14:29:33Z jackdaniel: me has dozen of org fiels
2015-08-03T14:29:38Z jackdaniel: s/fiels/files/
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2015-08-03T14:29:54Z jackdaniel: s/me/\/me/
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2015-08-03T14:55:38Z Vityok: pjb: thanks for your advice
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2015-08-03T15:01:00Z jackdaniel: is this test correct? https://github.com/dkochmanski/ansi-cl-tests/blob/master/stable-sort.lsp#L130
2015-08-03T15:01:21Z jackdaniel: stable-sort is destructive, so a may be anything, not only "00011111"
2015-08-03T15:01:30Z jackdaniel: for instance "01011101", right?
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2015-08-03T15:08:30Z Bike: yeah, the second value could be something else.
2015-08-03T15:08:51Z jackdaniel: tought so, thanks
2015-08-03T15:09:23Z Bike: well, but for a sorted vector the elements are "permuted in place", so i don't know, maybe that's enough of a restriction
2015-08-03T15:09:34Z jackdaniel: hm
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2015-08-03T15:13:54Z ggole: Wait, how could the second value be something else?
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2015-08-03T15:14:42Z jackdaniel: hm, consider (nreverse x) -> x doesn't have to be in *any* state after operation
2015-08-03T15:14:50Z jackdaniel: but this "permuted in place" seems tricky to me
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2015-08-03T15:16:14Z ggole: But a is explicitly an array here. So the question is whether destructive operations leave arrays in such non-states.
2015-08-03T15:16:29Z edgar-rft: Section 3.7.1 "Modification of Literal Objects" (linked from the SORT / STABLE-SORT page) says that "The consequences are undefined if literal objects are destructively modified." IMO this means that the value of a is unreliable after a destructive SORT or STABLE-SORT.
2015-08-03T15:16:53Z ggole: a is a copy of that literal.
2015-08-03T15:17:11Z jackdaniel: what ggole said, a isn't literal
2015-08-03T15:17:33Z jackdaniel: well, internally ecl coerces sequence to list
2015-08-03T15:19:27Z jackdaniel: and after sorting it coerces it back to sequence type
2015-08-03T15:21:03Z dlowe: No, "The consequences are undefined" means that demons could fly out of your nose
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2015-08-03T15:21:15Z dlowe: To avoid nasal demons, don't do those things.
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2015-08-03T15:29:22Z Bike: a isn't literal, that part is irrelevant
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2015-08-03T15:43:40Z |3b|: sounds like it "should" either be the original contents or sorted, but i don't think you can rely on that
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2015-08-03T15:45:06Z |3b|: it isn't required to return the same vector, just one with same element type, but "this is accomplished by..." suggests it should sort it if it does modify the original
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2015-08-03T18:08:43Z knobo: Does anyone know sxql here?
2015-08-03T18:09:29Z knobo: I'm trying to do: (yield  (select (:id (:as "string" :foo)) (from :table)))
2015-08-03T18:09:41Z knobo: And it does not produce what I expect.
2015-08-03T18:10:11Z eudoxia: i know sxql
2015-08-03T18:11:02Z eudoxia: what does it produce on your end?
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2015-08-03T18:11:50Z oleo: does it matter when you change id and from ?
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2015-08-03T18:12:00Z oleo: the order.....
2015-08-03T18:12:33Z knobo: I can drop the id.
2015-08-03T18:12:50Z knobo: And just do: (yield  (select ((:as "string" :foo)) ))
2015-08-03T18:12:59Z knobo: and I get: "SELECT ? AS foo"
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2015-08-03T18:13:07Z knobo: ("string")
2015-08-03T18:13:37Z eudoxia: right
2015-08-03T18:13:38Z knobo: It makes a prepared statement, with the string as an argument
2015-08-03T18:14:05Z eudoxia: well if you do (:as :foo :string) it produces sort of what you want
2015-08-03T18:14:37Z knobo: no, as then string is not a string.
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2015-08-03T18:15:49Z |3b|: you want a column in the output named foo containing the literal 'string', or you want an existing column as a string?
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2015-08-03T18:16:08Z knobo: the literal 'string'
2015-08-03T18:16:46Z eudoxia: how about (let ((sxql:*quote-character* #\")) (yield  (select ((:as :foo :string)) (from :table))))
2015-08-03T18:17:01Z eudoxia: note this will apply to table names etc.
2015-08-03T18:17:30Z eudoxia: wait
2015-08-03T18:17:36Z eudoxia: (yield  (select ((:as :foo (:raw "\"string\""))) (from :table)))
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2015-08-03T18:20:53Z knobo: (yield  (select ((:as :foo (:raw "\"string\""))) (from :table))) works.
2015-08-03T18:21:07Z knobo: sorry, pasted wrong.
2015-08-03T18:21:09Z knobo: (select ((:as (:raw "'string'") :foo )) )
2015-08-03T18:23:50Z knobo: Thank you :)
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2015-08-03T22:26:43Z pjb: jackdaniel: assuming x is bound to a non-empty list, ie. a cons cell, after (nreverse x), x shall still be bound to the same cons cell.  That cons cell might have be mutated however.  Both it's car and cdr may have changed, but I'd expect them to still be valid lisp values.
2015-08-03T22:27:23Z pjb: (assuming none of the cons cells in the list is immutable (ie. a literal cons cell).
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2015-08-03T22:38:27Z fe[nl]ix: is Daniel Kochmański around ?
2015-08-03T22:40:17Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: you can find his email from his github account.
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2015-08-03T22:41:18Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: what would I do without your advice ?
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2015-08-03T23:06:30Z pjb: I wonder.
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2015-08-04T01:19:30Z diginet: people who extol the virtues of Genera confuse me
2015-08-04T01:19:54Z diginet: the whole "Lisp can do things with an OOM less code" argument I've always found dubious
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2015-08-04T01:20:34Z pjb: Then go write java code.  Don't bother us.
2015-08-04T01:20:43Z diginet: take Genera. Broadly speaking, it has almost an identical feature set to Oberon OS (just replace ZetaLisp with the Oberon language). And yet, Oberon, despite being written in a rather Spartan language, is a *fraction* of the size
2015-08-04T01:21:36Z loke: diginet: do you actually have a point?
2015-08-04T01:22:23Z diginet: loke: just something I was pondering
2015-08-04T01:23:43Z loke: diginet: You have to ponder a bit more though, because you don't actually quantify anything. It doesn't matter what position you take, you are always going to find specific systems that support (as well as contradict) your point.
2015-08-04T01:23:55Z pjb: ponderings shall go to #lispcafe.
2015-08-04T01:24:57Z diginet: loke: well I know, but my point is that lispers like to say that lisp is so much more expressive (in the sense of not requiring the same amount of code to say something) but I've never seen any evidence of this
2015-08-04T01:25:27Z loke: diginet: I hope you can see that any attempt at addressing what little point there was to your argument, will only lead to a sequent of examples/counterexamples with very little constructive reasoning.
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2015-08-04T01:26:10Z loke: diginet: What would you expect us to answer to that? Show you example of expressive code? There's plenty of that online but that didn't convince you, did it?
2015-08-04T01:27:19Z diginet: loke: what I meant is that Genera was the product of tons of funding, and some of the best lisp programmers in the world, and the result was an extremely bloated mess
2015-08-04T01:29:02Z loke: diginet: That's your assertion (again, without quantification). I'm not capable of even addressing that since I've never used Genera and never seen its source.
2015-08-04T01:31:45Z diginet: from a functional standpoint, it literally takes about two orders of magnitude more code to do almost exactly what Oberon OS does
2015-08-04T01:32:00Z diginet: on top of that, Genera was written for an arch specifically tailored to Lisp
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2015-08-04T01:37:20Z loke: I find this all to be very pointless. I will, however, justify why such anecdotal arguments are worthless. Anyone who has ever developed a large piece of software knows that you can implement a full system in N lines of code, but subsequent development of what feels like merely tuning and implementing the "last few things before release" causes the code size to increase to easily N*5.
2015-08-04T01:37:56Z loke: An onlooker would determine that the functionality of the program at state N is roughly similar to that of N*5, even though the latter is more polished.
2015-08-04T01:38:34Z loke: I've worked on multiple very large applications and they all behave like that.
2015-08-04T01:39:00Z loke: Thus, I'm not going to discuss this any further unless I hear some actual quantifiable arguments.
2015-08-04T01:41:25Z pjb: diginet: you cannot compare systems that have been developed at different epochs.  The knowledge of the programmers and the tools at their disposal have a lot of impact on the characteristics of those systems.  You should compare General with what you had then, that is, nothing (a few rudimentary early unix workstation? mainframes?).
2015-08-04T01:42:19Z pjb: diginet: you can see why, by just re-implementing yourself some old systems.  Then you realize that you are able to do the same job in a couple of months alone, as teams of programmers using year.months did decenies before.
2015-08-04T01:42:48Z Zhivago: Of course, that's generally the case for re-implementation.
2015-08-04T01:42:55Z Zhivago: Solved problems are easier.
2015-08-04T01:42:57Z pjb: It's not that you are better than them, just that you have more knowledge, more RAM, faster computers, better tools, the WEB!
2015-08-04T01:43:26Z diginet: I dunno if that really applies here
2015-08-04T01:43:38Z diginet: Oberon descends from Lilith, which was pretty similar
2015-08-04T01:43:44Z diginet: it came just a little later
2015-08-04T01:43:49Z loke: diginet: Of course it doesn't apply. It disagrees with your assertion.
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2015-08-04T03:13:33Z jason_m: I'm reading through the clsql documentation and had a thought: do lisp programs tend to have fewer "tiers" as "traditional" object-oriented languages?
2015-08-04T03:14:17Z jason_m: i often see architectures with a "data model" tier, a "data transport" tier, and a "business object" tier.  often the data structures in each tier are essentially the same
2015-08-04T03:14:52Z Zhivago: They are solving similar problems.
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2015-08-04T03:15:09Z jason_m: with CLOS, behavior is defined not by the class, but by the set of operators that can operate on an object of a class.  so i think some of that can be eliminated
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2015-08-04T03:17:39Z jason_m: back to clsql, maybe i'm the examples i'm thinking of are too trivial, but i don't see why the class that i define with def-view-model can't also be my "business object"
2015-08-04T03:18:50Z Zhivago: Invert the question.
2015-08-04T03:19:07Z Zhivago: Must the class you defined with def-view-model also be your business object?
2015-08-04T03:19:18Z Zhivago: Is the congruence fundamental or accidental?
2015-08-04T03:19:31Z Zhivago: Might the congruence be expected to diverge in the future?
2015-08-04T03:19:51Z Zhivago: Could you have view-only aspects added to it that should not propagate to the business object?
2015-08-04T03:22:11Z jason_m: no, it would not have to be your business object, but at least i think there is more reason to think about why.
2015-08-04T03:22:47Z Zhivago: I think what you're observing is that the rate of accidental congruence is high.
2015-08-04T03:23:06Z jason_m: i struggle with some of the architectures i've seen because it feels like an awful lot of redundancy
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2015-08-04T03:23:31Z Zhivago: Why is the redundancy an issue?
2015-08-04T03:23:34Z jason_m: and one of the reasons i've been told for the separation is to keep "behavior" in the business tier
2015-08-04T03:24:06Z jason_m: but in CLOS, behavior doesn't belong to the class, which is what lead me to think about this
2015-08-04T03:24:24Z Zhivago: It is associated with the classes involved.
2015-08-04T03:24:46Z jason_m: it is associated with classes, but not defined by the classes
2015-08-04T03:24:46Z Zhivago: So there's no fundamental difference there.
2015-08-04T03:24:53Z Zhivago: So what?
2015-08-04T03:24:53Z jason_m: i think there is a difference there
2015-08-04T03:25:03Z Zhivago: We're talking about data structures here.
2015-08-04T03:25:33Z PuercoPop: jason_m: imho there is a wasted opportunity there. With the MOP there should be more inter-tier communication. Like the data model informing the validation model, which in turn could inform a mocking tier, to generate test data for testing. Look at MAO or Smalltalk's Magritte.
2015-08-04T03:27:24Z jason_m: PuercoPop: MAO?
2015-08-04T03:29:30Z pillton: jason_m: The redundancy may have been the result of a bad example.
2015-08-04T03:30:17Z PuercoPop: jason_m: https://github.com/drewc/lisp-on-lines/tree/master/src/mao
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2015-08-04T03:32:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-04T03:32:45Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-08-04T03:43:31Z jason_m: PuercoPop: thanks for the references/examples.  It sounds like you guys are saying you can't necessarily get rid of tiers.  That being the case, I find your claim that MOP should be able to help out compelling.  I haven't dug into MOP yet.  I'll get there eventually.
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2015-08-04T03:46:39Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
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2015-08-04T03:53:54Z PuercoPop: I was working on interconnecting tiers through the MOP a while back, but it is far from complete, only the validation tier protype is done. I ran into some issues with not evaluating non standard slots (solved it with eval), and failed to implement the AMOP's cannonicalize-defclass-option extension as SBCL. Left me curious if a CLOSinCLOS (using closer-mop) would provide a suitable upgrade path to continue improving
2015-08-04T03:53:55Z PuercoPop:  the extensiblity of CLOS.
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2015-08-04T04:51:09Z drmeister: Hello everyone
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2015-08-04T05:29:12Z knobo: Hello
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2015-08-04T05:38:19Z drmeister: When compiling (let ((x (foo)) (x (bar))) ...)   both X bindings are represented in the environment but the first one is shadowed by the second one - correct?
2015-08-04T05:38:20Z rritoch: Hi, Can someone give me a link to an official common-lisp conformance testing suite?
2015-08-04T05:39:02Z drmeister: rritoch: I think this is what you are looking for:  https://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/
2015-08-04T05:39:27Z Zhivago: drmeister: Effectively, but I would expect the first x to be optimized away.
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2015-08-04T05:40:09Z drmeister: Zhivago: The evaluation of (foo) could have side-effects, that's why I'm worried about it.
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2015-08-04T05:40:47Z drmeister: So it has to be evaluated I'm certain.
2015-08-04T05:40:53Z rritoch: drmeister: Thanks, as for your question, I think it's implementation dependent. I've noticed I can setq on let bound variables which implies there is only one instance of that variable. The same wouldn't be true about let* since each variable in a let* binding would likely have it's own scope.
2015-08-04T05:41:07Z Zhivago: Well, the side-effects of that evaluation must remain, but the binding need not.
2015-08-04T05:41:27Z Zhivago: So you could imagine a transformation to (progn (foo) (let ((x (bar))) ...)
2015-08-04T05:42:45Z rritoch: drmeister: A common pattern in clojure apps is to use the "_" variable in an equivalent of a let* to indicate operations where the value isn't needed, but the side-effects are.
2015-08-04T05:43:38Z drmeister: rritoch: Thanks.  LET* I understand as equivalent to nested LET's
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2015-08-04T05:43:50Z drmeister: But I just tried this in SBCL:
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2015-08-04T05:44:05Z drmeister: (let ((x 1)) (defun incx () (setq x (+ 1 x))) (defun readx () x))
2015-08-04T05:44:28Z drmeister:  (let ((x (incx)) (x (incx)) (x 99)) x)
2015-08-04T05:44:50Z drmeister: The compiler signaled an error that X was defined more than once in the same LET
2015-08-04T05:45:06Z Zhivago: Hmm, perhaps that is illegal.
2015-08-04T05:45:11Z PuercoPop: drmeister: (foo) and (bar) have to be evaluated before any binding is performed.
2015-08-04T05:45:43Z rritoch: drmeister: In ABCL there is no error.
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2015-08-04T05:46:16Z Zhivago: I guess it is reasonable for it to be illegal, as the bindings are performed in parallel.
2015-08-04T05:46:37Z PuercoPop: and it afaiu, because the bindings are done in parallel it doesn't have to bind x to the last binding used.
2015-08-04T05:46:55Z PuercoPop: s/it/as/
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2015-08-04T05:49:10Z rritoch: drmeister: The behavior your talking about isn't defined by the hyperspec explicitly. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm#let
2015-08-04T05:50:01Z Zhivago: I think that I would make it illegal on the grounds that there is no reasonable choice to make.
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2015-08-04T05:53:35Z rritoch: drmeister: SBCL seems to be non-conformant with that behavior. I did some digging on it and noticed Exceptional Situations: None.
2015-08-04T05:55:38Z rritoch: drmeister: The definition of Exceptional Situations is here, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddj.htm , notice the first definition "Situations that are detected by the function and formally signaled."
2015-08-04T05:57:22Z rritoch: drmeister: Unless the hyperspec specifically allows an error to be signaled, I don't believe an implementation is conformant if it signals an error.
2015-08-04T05:58:47Z Bike: it's a compile error, not a runtime error. it's not like definitely-bad let syntax wouldn't signal something.
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2015-08-04T05:59:25Z Bike: (let 4 5) => something's gotta happen
2015-08-04T06:00:05Z Bike: would be a runtime error too i guess
2015-08-04T06:00:59Z rritoch: Bike: Your case (let 4 5) is a syntax error because it doesn't match the syntax of the let function, so triggering an error in that case is OK
2015-08-04T06:01:18Z rritoch: Bike: You can on the other hand do (let () 4 5)
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2015-08-04T06:01:39Z Bike: yes, that's what i'm saying, it's not like "exceptional situations: none" means no errors are possible
2015-08-04T06:01:52Z Bike: having multiple bindings for the same binding is also syntactic
2015-08-04T06:01:56Z Bike: same variable* blah
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2015-08-04T06:10:59Z rritoch: Bike: Errors due to invalid arguments are covered here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ea.htm
2015-08-04T06:11:24Z Bike: that is for function calls
2015-08-04T06:11:39Z rritoch: Bike: let is a function
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2015-08-04T06:12:10Z PuercoPop: rritoch: it is not a function, it is a special operator.
2015-08-04T06:13:13Z PuercoPop: and 3.5.1 is about lambda lists, let bindings are not part of it.
2015-08-04T06:13:24Z PuercoPop: *of lambda lists
2015-08-04T06:14:42Z Bike: even if let was a function, none of the items in 3.1.5 even apply to (let 4)
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2015-08-04T06:23:39Z PuercoPop: And the compiler is explicitly allowed to signal an error when it cannot proceed w/o user intervention, such as deciding the undecidable. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_be.htm
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2015-08-04T06:24:10Z rritoch: Bike: Ok, well this would still apply http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_eag.htm
2015-08-04T06:24:55Z Bike: let doesn't have a defined destructuring lambda list
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2015-08-04T06:25:33Z rritoch: PuercoPop: There's no need for user intervention to allow multiple bindings, it's covered in the shadowing section http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ae.htm
2015-08-04T06:26:26Z Bike: says two forms
2015-08-04T06:26:30Z PuercoPop: rritoch: let is parallel, one entry in let doesn't shadow the other one.
2015-08-04T06:26:46Z PuercoPop: as would be the case with let*
2015-08-04T06:27:20Z rritoch: Ok, well I'm done feeding the trolls.
2015-08-04T06:27:43Z rritoch: I answered it, if you don't like the answer than complain to the ones that produced the spec.
2015-08-04T06:27:45Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?
2015-08-04T06:28:29Z drmeister: No (sigh)
2015-08-04T06:28:52Z Bike: please don't refer to me as a troll because we read obscure parts of the spec in different fashions
2015-08-04T06:29:05Z smokeink: has anyone compiled smokeqt with QThread support ?
2015-08-04T06:29:16Z rritoch: It is programming 101 that invalid syntax is allowed to signal a syntax error, what's going on here is nothing but trolling.
2015-08-04T06:29:39Z Bike: what i was saying was that multiple binding could also conceivably be a syntax error.
2015-08-04T06:30:28Z rritoch: Bike: It isn't a syntax error, the let "special operator" places no constraints that the symbols must be unique.
2015-08-04T06:30:59Z Bike: i don't know if it is, all i meant was "so and so part of the spec means you can only signal errors in these situations" doesn't exclude an error here, though the definition of let might
2015-08-04T06:31:21Z PuercoPop: I agree, except it doesn't seem to be us doing the trolling. Btw you may be confused as the let operator in clojure is equivalent to let* in CL. peace out.
2015-08-04T06:31:59Z Bike: nobody's trolling, we're just pedantic, because this is freenode
2015-08-04T06:32:32Z rritoch: PuercoPop: I'm not confused, I am using ABCL and looking at the hyperspec, and in non place is duplicate symbols in let dis-allowed.
2015-08-04T06:32:44Z rritoch: In ABCL there is no error when duplicate symbols are used
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2015-08-04T06:33:22Z rritoch: Your trolling because you don't like to hear that your SBCL isn't conformant, which is just wasting my time.
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2015-08-04T06:37:06Z drmeister: Yeah, there's no problem here.
2015-08-04T06:38:34Z drmeister: I'm trying to implement a faster bclasp compiler and I'm reevaluating my understanding of some of these special operators.
2015-08-04T06:40:15Z rritoch: drmeister: Well this duplicate binding issue is a matter of concurrency control since he bindings are defined to occur in parallel
2015-08-04T06:40:24Z rritoch: he=the
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2015-08-04T06:41:34Z drmeister: I'm looking at beach's implementation of lexical environments and I don't see any class for function environments, something to indicate the boundary between one function and another nested within it.
2015-08-04T06:41:55Z drmeister: Without them, how would you determine if a variable is free or not?
2015-08-04T06:41:55Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: DK is me, hi!
2015-08-04T06:41:58Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-08-04T06:42:54Z jackdaniel: I think (let (x x) …) is an error - or at least *should* be an error
2015-08-04T06:42:58Z Bike: drmeister: "function environments" as in the environment in the body of a function? why would that have to be a separate class?
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2015-08-04T06:43:49Z White_Flame: there's not much boundary, depending on how closures are implemented...
2015-08-04T06:44:08Z drmeister: Bike: I'm certain that my understanding is incomplete.
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2015-08-04T06:44:35Z jackdaniel: rritoch: ecl doesn't signal an error yet, but what programmer even mean by that? it is a typo in 99.9% cases
2015-08-04T06:44:43Z Bike: it's just an environment same as any other
2015-08-04T06:44:46Z rritoch: Since your optimizing, I assume you want speed, so you should go with optimistic locking or "last commit wins". It is reasonable to believe that future implementations of let will perform each binding on a separate processor.
2015-08-04T06:45:19Z jackdaniel: last write win is no strategy, it's non deterministic in such environments
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2015-08-04T06:45:56Z drmeister: (let ((x 1)) (function (lambda (y) (+ x y))))    How do I determine that x is a free variable?   In Clasp I have an environment entry for the FUNCTION and I thought I would look for variable references like the above    that are on the other side of a FUNCTION environment entry from their definition (x 1)
2015-08-04T06:45:57Z rritoch: jackdaniel: yes, but when your just looking for the side effects, and not the value, it becomes relevant.
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2015-08-04T06:46:18Z Bike: the values of the let have to be executed sequentially, i can't imagine multiprocessing helping with that
2015-08-04T06:46:19Z jackdaniel: rritoch: you shouldn't do it in let then
2015-08-04T06:46:31Z jackdaniel: if you don't want to bind variable
2015-08-04T06:47:11Z jackdaniel: anyway I made issue in ECL a week ago to signall an error on such occasions
2015-08-04T06:47:25Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Again, this comes to concurrency control, if you want the side effects to occur before the let form is run, it makes sense to include it in the bindings.
2015-08-04T06:47:31Z Bike: drmeister: hm, i suppose you could mark elsewhere that the environment establishing y is the "top" for the current function. doesn't seem like that'd be a class though
2015-08-04T06:47:56Z White_Flame: rritoch: I agree with Bike; the spec says that the parallel-binding LET form "first evaluates the expressions init-form-1, init-form-2, and so on, in that order, saving the resulting values."
2015-08-04T06:47:59Z jackdaniel: rritoch: it doesn't make sense - let is for variable bindings, not for calling side effects
2015-08-04T06:48:09Z White_Flame: you can't parallelize that with side effects and obey the spec
2015-08-04T06:48:12Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Sure, the result is meaningless and random, but if you reuse the same symbol for your bindings more than once, you should expect non-consistant results.
2015-08-04T06:48:52Z jackdaniel: rritoch: I think using same binding in one lexical scope is an error
2015-08-04T06:49:04Z drmeister: Bike: It's something like that that I'm not considering.
2015-08-04T06:49:05Z rritoch: White_Flame: Well, if that's the case than the result should always be the last binding.
2015-08-04T06:49:13Z Bike: result?
2015-08-04T06:49:16Z White_Flame: rritoch: no, because the actual binding is in parallel
2015-08-04T06:49:34Z rritoch: ROFL
2015-08-04T06:49:36Z rritoch: Troll much
2015-08-04T06:49:41Z jackdaniel: and if you want side effect, then (let (a b) (side-effect) (let ((x (dependant-on-side-effect)) …)
2015-08-04T06:49:51Z rritoch: You can't have your cake and eat it to, either it's parallel or it isn't
2015-08-04T06:49:56Z White_Flame: rritoch: fine, don't discuss.
2015-08-04T06:50:10Z Bike: why is everyone a troll now...
2015-08-04T06:50:20Z White_Flame: rritoch: that's exactly what the spec says
2015-08-04T06:50:20Z jackdaniel: rritoch: re-read spec, in parallel means, that you first evaluate R-values, then bind them
2015-08-04T06:50:27Z White_Flame: serial evaluation, parallel binding, end of story
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2015-08-04T06:50:28Z Bike: the BINDING is in parallel, but the VALUES are run sequentially. it is somewhat confusing, yes, but not too bad
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2015-08-04T06:51:01Z Bike: it's so that you can do like (let ((x 4)) (let ((x 5) (y (+ x 2))) (values x y))) => 5 6
2015-08-04T06:51:21Z jackdaniel: I think that same should apply to labels - that is same function name in one labels block should signal an error
2015-08-04T06:52:16Z jackdaniel: two functions of same name°
2015-08-04T06:52:29Z Bike: labels probably isn't a good analogy since the "values" aren't evaluated in a remotely similar way
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2015-08-04T06:53:35Z rritoch: Anyhow, I see where it says they're evaluated in order, which implies the last binding wins. It is irrelevant which binding triggers the creation of the variable. Say they're in parallel binding, than whichever "wins" would be the storage location for each form that defines the value of that symbol, which when executed in order would always lead to the last value shadowing the others.
2015-08-04T06:53:44Z jackdaniel: Bike: I mean (labels ((x () nil) (x () t)) …) ; <- that is bogus, you can't even put side effect in one of this, so it doesn't make much sense
2015-08-04T06:54:28Z White_Flame: rritoch: You're displaying that you don't know what "binding" means
2015-08-04T06:54:35Z rritoch: Therefore, no error should be triggered for redefinition of the same symbol in more than one binding pair (varn init-form-n)
2015-08-04T06:54:52Z Bike: jackdaniel: i mean it's not a good analogy since the functions in labels are in a recursive environment, which is totally different from anything let does.
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2015-08-04T06:56:01Z rritoch: White_Flame: This isn't the binding of the variable to the form result, The variables are being bound to a value which doesn't exist, known in computer science as a future
2015-08-04T06:56:28Z White_Flame: when the CLHS uses the term "binding" it is using the specific Lisp meaning of the term
2015-08-04T06:56:51Z rritoch: White_Flame: Straw man arguments aren't going to get you anywhere
2015-08-04T06:56:55Z Bike: boy, i missed this over the months i was gone
2015-08-04T06:56:58Z White_Flame: wow
2015-08-04T06:57:02Z jackdaniel: Bike: I understand, I mean it's similar that multiple bindings of same name in same lexical scope are bogus
2015-08-04T06:57:16Z rritoch: White_Flame: Sure http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#binding
2015-08-04T06:57:16Z White_Flame: yeah, these sorts of arguments are fun to knock around, but certainly not appropriate or productive
2015-08-04T06:57:23Z White_Flame: I'm done
2015-08-04T06:57:35Z rritoch: But in the scope of a let, those bindings are to "futures" since the value doesn't yet exist.
2015-08-04T06:57:52Z Bike: i'm pretty ok with a variable appearing multiply in a let, but this is silly
2015-08-04T06:57:56Z jackdaniel: rritoch: you're wrong®
2015-08-04T06:58:11Z Bike: that was pointless.
2015-08-04T06:59:45Z rritoch: jackdaniel: You would like to believe so, but this is not a paradox, if the bindings occur parallel, and the evaluation occures in order, than the bindings must be to "futures"
2015-08-04T06:59:46Z jackdaniel: yeah, but everbody can loose his nerve :p boy - that was intensive, I'll reread discussion later :)
2015-08-04T07:00:08Z jackdaniel: rritoch: recently I was correcting psetf in ECL, so had to read spec *really* hard
2015-08-04T07:00:46Z Bike: there's no need for futures, you just need to reexamine what "in parallel" means - it doesn't imply anything about the temporal order in which the implementation is evaluating them
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2015-08-04T07:01:53Z rritoch: Bike: Sure, the lexical context and/or scope is the "future" in this case. It is a storage location that anticipates a future value existing.
2015-08-04T07:02:04Z Bike: no, like...
2015-08-04T07:03:06Z Bike: let's say (let ((x (do-something)) (x 5))) ...) is legal. the compiler could emit code like "CALL do-something; MOV %rax, 5". just analyze that ok the first binding is irrelevant and not treat it as part of the let.
2015-08-04T07:03:12Z rritoch: This conversation reeks of bikeshedding, either way I have actual work to do and this conversation doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
2015-08-04T07:03:26Z Bike: it's been bikeshedding for a half an hour at least, yes
2015-08-04T07:04:53Z White_Flame: but I haven't finished my card of Barely Appropriate Logical Argument Buzzword Bingo yet!
2015-08-04T07:04:59Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2015-08-04T07:05:00Z drmeister: I got what I needed out of the first half a dozen comments.  Thanks folks.
2015-08-04T07:05:16Z Bike: hm, but since it's not a argument about how to design, maybe it's not bikeshedding, but instead yak shaving? we should talk about this for the next hour
2015-08-04T07:07:33Z drmeister: I have a herd of naked yaks in my back yard, what's a few more.
2015-08-04T07:09:05Z kristof: I'm sure "whatever SBCL does" is the correct answer and will save everyone a few ulcers.
2015-08-04T07:09:59Z Bike: sbcl actually recently changed when it signals errors on duplicate names in some lambda lists #funfact
2015-08-04T07:10:31Z kristof: Is the bindings alist of a let form a lambda list?
2015-08-04T07:11:04Z Bike: you could rewrite it as on
2015-08-04T07:11:05Z Bike: e
2015-08-04T07:11:10Z White_Flame: it's not an alist though
2015-08-04T07:11:15Z Bike: that too
2015-08-04T07:11:58Z kristof: Huh? it is. (let ((var1 expr1) (var2 expr2) ...) (body)
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2015-08-04T07:12:00Z kristof: )
2015-08-04T07:12:04Z White_Flame: but no, it's not referred to any of the existing list types
2015-08-04T07:12:09Z Bike: (let ((var1 expr1) var2) ...) also works
2015-08-04T07:12:14Z Bike: default nil n shit man
2015-08-04T07:12:20Z White_Flame: ((var1 . expr1) (var2 . expr2)) would be an alist
2015-08-04T07:12:33Z White_Flame: as well as the single-symbol issue
2015-08-04T07:12:34Z Bike: also alists sometimes... yeah that
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2015-08-04T07:13:35Z kristof: Oh, alists have to have dotted members. You know, for some reason I had it in my head that they were just lists of two-member lists but clearly I was just mistaken.
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2015-08-04T07:14:10Z White_Flame: technically, you could say it's an a-list with the init-forms wrapped in a superfluous list, but idiomatically it's not really used like an alist
2015-08-04T07:14:25Z White_Flame: s/used/structured/
2015-08-04T07:14:35Z kristof: Sure.
2015-08-04T07:15:17Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Fare: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/issues/2
2015-08-04T07:15:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-04T07:20:52Z White_Flame: kristof: I don't know if there is a name for ((key val) (key val)), but we call those m-lists, because it's used with our custom member function
2015-08-04T07:21:17Z White_Flame: maybe it'll catch on if I say that enough :)
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2015-08-04T07:22:14Z Bike: there's a part in cltl2 where "alists" of two element lists are referred to. very spooky..........
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2015-08-04T07:24:44Z kristof: White_Flame: Custom, where?
2015-08-04T07:24:55Z White_Flame: in our logic language
2015-08-04T07:24:58Z rritoch: White_Flame: They're normally referred to as binding forms in my "circles" but in my experience too much emphasis is put on terminology
2015-08-04T07:25:03Z kristof: White_Flame: Are you the fellow who posted about using Lisp in production?
2015-08-04T07:25:10Z White_Flame: yes
2015-08-04T07:25:20Z kristof: That was a solid post, thank you for writing it.
2015-08-04T07:25:22Z White_Flame: well, one of, not sure about "the" fellow
2015-08-04T07:25:33Z White_Flame: oh, if it's a blog post, then no
2015-08-04T07:25:42Z White_Flame: haven't had a chance to do serious blogging
2015-08-04T07:25:57Z kristof: I'm referring to: http://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html
2015-08-04T07:26:11Z White_Flame: yep, not me
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2015-08-04T07:26:22Z kristof: Ah, okay. Well that is also a solid post :P
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2015-08-04T07:26:47Z White_Flame: but I did argue its case on the hacker news thread :)
2015-08-04T07:26:52Z kristof: I'm one of those cranky "Lisp should have taken over the web" types, so I try to circulate material like this frequently.
2015-08-04T07:27:14Z rritoch: kristof: Lisp did take over the web
2015-08-04T07:27:32Z kristof: rritoch: Uh, no. :)
2015-08-04T07:27:58Z rritoch: kristof: Remember, it isn't the politician you need to be afraid of, its the man behind the politician. Lisp invented MOST technologies that now exist in other languages. Such as lambda forms.
2015-08-04T07:28:30Z rritoch: err. lambda functions
2015-08-04T07:28:45Z kristof: Well I'm talking about Common Lisp and everything it had to offer, fully standardized, by the time Javascript, Python, and Ruby (successively) took off as web technologies.
2015-08-04T07:29:42Z rritoch: kristof: Yep, and good luck finding features in those languages, beyond the syntax itself, that they didn't either directly or indirectly get from lisp.
2015-08-04T07:30:10Z Skrylar: kristof: there's a few functional reasons it didn't, though
2015-08-04T07:30:11Z kristof: What I'm saying is that they didn't borrow enough features.
2015-08-04T07:30:33Z Skrylar: one of them was the case of Reddit where they ported to python, citing difficulty actually using lisp on his laptop and desktop at the time
2015-08-04T07:30:50Z rritoch: kristof: Lol, no sh**, I had a similar conversation with pike developers, they flat out told me to just use lisp.
2015-08-04T07:31:11Z Skrylar: i think somebody did find  that when reddit was written there was a separate lisp that would run on his laptop, but it would have involved maintaining code for two lisp interpreters and he wasn't interested
2015-08-04T07:32:45Z kristof: He was using FreeBSD and OSX
2015-08-04T07:33:11Z Skrylar: i'd have to re-read his article
2015-08-04T07:33:12Z kristof: I think FreeBSD is even more of an anomaly in the server world than it was before now that LXC is so popular
2015-08-04T07:33:32Z Skrylar: i know i don't use lisp because there isn't a lisp interpreter i can afford that does what i need it to do
2015-08-04T07:33:40Z Skrylar: this sentiment is shared by a few people in gamedev
2015-08-04T07:34:18Z rritoch: Skrylar: I'm working on it :)
2015-08-04T07:34:34Z Firedancer: What specially you need from lisp interpreter for gamedev?
2015-08-04T07:34:38Z Skrylar: ECL will kind of do it, but has an LGPL license.  Schemes will do it, but also have LGPL licenses
2015-08-04T07:34:59Z Skrylar: I looked in to Racket again recently and you can link it with C, but the LGPL runtime makes mobile development 'awkward'
2015-08-04T07:35:00Z rritoch: Skrylar: See https://github.com/rritoch/abcl
2015-08-04T07:35:01Z White_Flame: use elisp! ;)
2015-08-04T07:35:22Z Firedancer: Did't Naughty Dog use some Racket variant for their coding?
2015-08-04T07:35:24Z kristof: I was talking about web development, not game development. Game development has a huge set of constraints that make a lot of languages unfeasible.
2015-08-04T07:35:27Z rritoch: Skrylar: The performance is garbage at this point, but that's the next problem to work on.
2015-08-04T07:35:43Z Skrylar: Firedancer: they used Racket to build a compiler to a subset of lisp, yeah. similar to what they did before with franz lisp
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2015-08-04T07:35:56Z rritoch: Skrylar: The first problem was integrating maven support
2015-08-04T07:36:07Z jackdaniel: Skrylar: what's wrong with lgpl? you can link with library without fear
2015-08-04T07:36:08Z rritoch: Skrylar: For the most part, that first problem is solved
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2015-08-04T07:36:40Z Skrylar: jackdaniel: because iOS and Android use weird distro formats, and consoles don't allow end users dev tool access anyway
2015-08-04T07:37:10Z Skrylar: in the case of iOS you wouldn't even be able to USE said linkables without paying for licensing anyway
2015-08-04T07:37:11Z jackdaniel: hm, ecl runs on android and ios (experimental builds, but well)
2015-08-04T07:37:37Z Skrylar: but to not completely trample kristof, i brought it up because a lack of distros that match what you need can be a factor
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2015-08-04T07:39:05Z Skrylar: for instance i just went to the SBCL page; the download page is a bit weird and doesn't mention if quicklisp is included
2015-08-04T07:39:17Z Skrylar: whereas nodejs or rubyinstaller include npm/gem
2015-08-04T07:40:00Z Skrylar: that's not to say lisp doesn't have package managers or can't be setup, but its not exactly like you can just grab a "here's sbcl+emacs+slime+quicklisp all set up in a neat bundle" from an obvious location
2015-08-04T07:40:23Z jackdaniel: lispinabox had that sole purpose
2015-08-04T07:40:28Z Firedancer: Wasn't there something like Lisp in a box thingy?
2015-08-04T07:40:28Z White_Flame: that's kind of similar when you're talking about getting an IDE to work with js or ruby projects
2015-08-04T07:40:51Z Skrylar: White_Flame: it is, but as i said.  ruby, nodejs and haskell come in a box from obvious locations
2015-08-04T07:40:54Z White_Flame: though emacs+slime is more difficult than IDE + compiler
2015-08-04T07:41:02Z Skrylar: install the "haskell platform" and it has cabal/ghc
2015-08-04T07:41:09Z Skrylar: which is linked from the haskell main pages..
2015-08-04T07:41:42Z jackdaniel: I think it's more about steep learning curve then mentioned setup
2015-08-04T07:41:51Z Skrylar: setup is part of the learning curve though :(
2015-08-04T07:42:15Z White_Flame: and SLIME still sucks when it comes to version issues...
2015-08-04T07:42:22Z Skrylar: theoretically somebody could make a port of _why's old comics to lisp, or something similar
2015-08-04T07:42:33Z Skrylar: "learn you a lisp for great good" instead of the haskell version =)
2015-08-04T07:43:46Z jackdaniel: Skrylar: act!
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2015-08-04T07:44:25Z PuercoPop: Skrylar: Land of Lisp has comics in a similar spirit
2015-08-04T07:44:31Z Firedancer: I don't feel like many CL veterans are really interested on that kind of push. They are mostly happy how things are now
2015-08-04T07:44:45Z lambda-smith: Which is a shame, really.
2015-08-04T07:45:01Z White_Flame: right, and the inertia they've built up is hard to achieve by newbies
2015-08-04T07:45:15Z jackdaniel: Firedancer: but it's not small core group of veterans who make languages take over the world - it's newbies sharing culture
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2015-08-04T07:45:35Z Skrylar: you have to be a newbie to become a veteran
2015-08-04T07:45:40Z lambda-smith: Skrylar: In case you didn't already know, SBCL didn't include Quicklisp.
2015-08-04T07:45:52Z jackdaniel: what leads sometimes to horrible code even in decent languages :p
2015-08-04T07:45:56Z Skrylar: lambda-smith: i suspected not, but hadn't checked recently
2015-08-04T07:46:16Z Skrylar: FPC is in the same boat, most of their users are delphi refugees
2015-08-04T07:46:16Z lambda-smith: Skrylar: It isn't. You have to set it up afterward.
2015-08-04T07:46:47Z Skrylar: i suspect a copy of spacemacs with a good lisp setup packed in an installer with a manual for noobs would go a long way, albeit would take some doing
2015-08-04T07:47:02Z Skrylar: Ruby's big push has been Ruby on Rails being really neat coupled with rubyinstaller including a book
2015-08-04T07:47:14Z lambda-smith: Skrylar: Yeah, it's a shame they weren't more resources to help newbies
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2015-08-04T07:47:34Z Skrylar: i'm interested in it when i have more time
2015-08-04T07:47:35Z Firedancer: At least quicklisp is pretty painless to set up and use. That was positive suprise
2015-08-04T07:47:40Z Skrylar: i'm not *that* well versed in CL though
2015-08-04T07:47:59Z lambda-smith: Firedancer: True, but we still could make it easier.
2015-08-04T07:48:46Z lambda-smith: But then the real problem with CL is the lack of documentations, especially concerning the libraries
2015-08-04T07:49:06Z Skrylar: i have a sore sentiment about that
2015-08-04T07:49:16Z Skrylar: i looked in to open source business models and it falls apart in the desktop world
2015-08-04T07:49:35Z Skrylar: which you sort of need, because writing docs is not glorious
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2015-08-04T07:50:06Z lambda-smith: Skrylar: True, but Racket people managed to produce a very good documentations
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2015-08-04T07:50:14Z Skrylar: Racket's documentation is quite nice
2015-08-04T07:50:18Z lambda-smith: Clojure guys too
2015-08-04T07:50:24Z Skrylar: racket does have consultants tho
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2015-08-04T07:50:50Z lambda-smith: And there are attempts to improve CL documentations, e.g. http://quickdocs.org/
2015-08-04T07:50:51Z White_Flame: so does clozure, franz, etc
2015-08-04T07:51:18Z Skrylar bookmarks quickdocs
2015-08-04T07:51:22Z White_Flame: one of the biggest problem is that API autodocs do not constitute documentation
2015-08-04T07:51:29Z lambda-smith: Though sadly there are little interests so far
2015-08-04T07:51:46Z Skrylar: i've done doc work lately [shudders]
2015-08-04T07:51:53Z Skrylar: asciidoc to CHM files via XSLT
2015-08-04T07:51:57Z kristof: API documentation is like giving a person a list of every part in a car and saying "There, now you know how to drive."
2015-08-04T07:52:03Z lambda-smith: White_Flame: True, true. This makes many libraries almost impossible to use without reading the source
2015-08-04T07:52:23Z lambda-smith: White_Flame: Which kill the newbies
2015-08-04T07:52:45Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for beach: I've reconsidered these tests - saying that vector is sorted in place *means*, that input vector is sorted and (eq x (stable-sort x)) ought to be true and this implicates, that it's equal
2015-08-04T07:52:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-04T07:53:25Z Skrylar: I wonder if some project managers just don't care, or they don't know how to make basic docs
2015-08-04T07:53:37Z Skrylar: I've seen a lot of FOSS that were lucky to have primitive man pages
2015-08-04T07:53:49Z Skrylar: albeit i probably wouldn't write them either if somebody said to write TROFF code
2015-08-04T07:54:34Z p_l: GNU stuff has sometimes usable manpages mainly because of Debian
2015-08-04T07:54:49Z lambda-smith: Skrylar: The specific problem with CL is that most of the libraries are really, really old
2015-08-04T07:54:59Z p_l: Though generally FOSS manpages are nothing compared to Solaris ones
2015-08-04T07:55:02Z lambda-smith: And created by many people, most of whom are no longer active
2015-08-04T07:55:11Z jackdaniel: lambda-smith: it's not a problem if they do their thing
2015-08-04T07:55:25Z lambda-smith: So, there are even less incentive to document things.
2015-08-04T07:55:52Z lambda-smith: jackdaniel: True, but they didn't.
2015-08-04T07:56:02Z jackdaniel: take alexandria - even if development would cease now, I think it would be great library even in 100y (given CL will be still used language)
2015-08-04T07:56:28Z Skrylar: speaking of old, wow. troff.org hasn't been updated in ages
2015-08-04T07:57:01Z lambda-smith: Still looks better than most pages on common-lisp.net :P
2015-08-04T07:57:20Z lambda-smith: Browsing project pages on common-lisp.net makes me sad
2015-08-04T07:57:25Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: you could make the uffi compatibility library in ecl loadable separately
2015-08-04T07:57:33Z Firedancer: Trying to install alexandria from AUR was one pain in the ass :D
2015-08-04T07:57:46Z Guthur: an old library does not necessarily mean it's broken
2015-08-04T07:57:47Z lambda-smith: Firedancer: why don't you use quicklisp? :P
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2015-08-04T07:58:08Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: yeah, that crossed my mind too - but it requires to api change - it's not a problem, but always its an api change
2015-08-04T07:58:10Z Firedancer: lambda-smith: I finally used. I am just so new that that wasn't the first thing that came to mind
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2015-08-04T07:58:17Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: I won't remove the :uffi nickname since that's the whole purpose of the UFFI compat layer
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2015-08-04T07:58:47Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I've removed this commit for current PR
2015-08-04T07:58:58Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: requiring users to add a (require :uffi) is not really an API change
2015-08-04T07:59:12Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: I already cherry-picked the other two commits
2015-08-04T07:59:28Z jackdaniel: ok, you're right
2015-08-04T07:59:33Z lambda-smith: A really great introduction to Common Lisp: http://articulate-lisp.com/
2015-08-04T07:59:42Z lambda-smith: More people should know about this website
2015-08-04T07:59:52Z Skrylar: i'll bookmark it and take a peek
2015-08-04T08:00:09Z jackdaniel: and I think that if cffi-uffi-compat will work flawlessly with ECL (after nickname removal), I'll just remove this nickname (it's nickname for ECL "ffi" package)
2015-08-04T08:00:14Z Skrylar: accidentally drifted off in doc land
2015-08-04T08:00:28Z Skrylar: troff / tex / docbook. admittedly i don't hand-write any of those
2015-08-04T08:00:37Z Guthur: lambda-smith: a little out of date, point 2 in the difficult wall is not an issue anymore with quicklisp
2015-08-04T08:01:23Z Guthur: ah wait it's talking about creating
2015-08-04T08:01:26Z Guthur: nvm, my bad
2015-08-04T08:01:34Z lambda-smith: np :P
2015-08-04T08:01:54Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: ok
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2015-08-04T08:02:16Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: it's not compability layer - ecl's ffi is designed to be compatible, but I think it will be easier to mantain to piggyback on cffi if someone wants uffi
2015-08-04T08:02:26Z Guthur: though to be fair it's probably not much worse than any other system definition
2015-08-04T08:03:18Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: thanks :)
2015-08-04T08:03:47Z jackdaniel: I've closed PR
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2015-08-04T08:03:56Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: I think so too. also, somebody should probably convert the last UFFI libraries to CFFI
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2015-08-04T08:06:35Z Guthur: fe[nl]ix: is there a list of such libraries? that depend-on uffi
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2015-08-04T08:07:45Z loke: who jackdaniel
2015-08-04T08:08:06Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: yeah, probably. If we take dependency tree, non-functional uffi breaks a lot of them
2015-08-04T08:08:27Z fe[nl]ix: Guthur: cl-gd cl-ncurses clsql elephant html-sugar linedit
2015-08-04T08:08:33Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: libraries that is - many depend on some library using uffi
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2015-08-04T08:10:43Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/ecl-load-failures-lisp-to-c.html (that's for 15.3.1, but I don't suspect it did changed much)
2015-08-04T08:10:54Z jackdaniel: loke: who me? what do you mean?
2015-08-04T08:11:06Z jackdaniel: 13.5.1 *
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2015-08-04T08:31:40Z loke: sorry
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2015-08-04T08:34:04Z Skrylar: hmm. wonder if there'd be a point in making something like a general text preprocessor out of a Lisp, kind of like pandoc/tex but lisp instead of texcode
2015-08-04T08:34:11Z Skrylar: although i suspect the problem is more docwriters than tooling
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2015-08-04T08:41:16Z Firedancer: Problem with docs is just that it is usually the boring part of the project. Almost the most important part, but still quite boring
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2015-08-04T08:48:26Z rritoch: Firedancer: I rarely find documentation as being that important, I can't say with any certainty that anyone will ever actually read most documentation.  The only truly useful part of the documentation process, in my opinion, is that it forces you to rethink architectural issues and is often the time when you'll discover bugs before the end user fiends them.
2015-08-04T08:48:54Z rritoch: fiends=finds
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2015-08-04T08:49:22Z Skrylar: i read documentation :(
2015-08-04T08:49:27Z Firedancer: well you are pretty experienced rritoch :)
2015-08-04T08:49:32Z Skrylar: although I'm one of those few people who expects the F1 key to work
2015-08-04T08:50:13Z Firedancer: It is like translating English using English - English dictionary. Yes, you can do it, but if you can only say your name it is really difficult way to learn
2015-08-04T08:51:35Z rritoch: Skrylar: There is nothing wrong with reading documentation, it is what people should be doing, but most technical support requests are already covered in documentation that the user failed to read.
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2015-08-04T08:52:16Z Skrylar: rritoch: you'd be surprised how often the help isn't actually there
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2015-08-04T08:52:40Z Skrylar: one of the last times i was in #kde somebody rudely told a user to RTFM; problem is, I had read the same manual earlier that day and the only thing written in it was "TODO."
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2015-08-04T08:55:34Z rritoch: Skrylar: Not much different than the thousands of references to "implementation dependent" in the hyperspec.
2015-08-04T08:56:13Z rritoch: Skrylar: Implementation dependent would be fine if the implementations had comprehensive documentation, but in many cases, they don't.
2015-08-04T08:56:56Z Skrylar: i figured one was supposed to assume implementation dependent was a black box
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2015-08-04T09:00:39Z Skrylar: admittedly i'm not in a hurry to update documentation for a bit
2015-08-04T09:00:47Z Skrylar: a few long days writing xslt sheets heh
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2015-08-04T09:08:46Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: is it ok to #+ecl in uffi-compat.lisp functions, which are implemented in ecl if they has adventages for ecl over default implementation?
2015-08-04T09:08:54Z jackdaniel: s/has/have/
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2015-08-04T09:24:35Z pjb: drmeister: there's an algorithm to find free variables in a lambda expression. You could adapt something from http://paste.lisp.org/+3A1J
2015-08-04T09:25:44Z pjb: If you have an "environment" associated with FUNCTION, then it's your bound-variables list.
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2015-08-04T09:27:26Z pjb: drmeister: of course, this assumes that any binding operator has been expanded to a lambda form.  You may want to deal with each of them separately if you didn't implement this transformation.
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2015-08-04T09:30:18Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: I would rather not, it's better to have the same behavior across all implementations
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2015-08-04T09:34:30Z pjb: jackdaniel: the specification doesn't specify errors for duplicate variables and function names in LET and LABELS.  For LET, there's no ambiguity, the earlier bindings are shadowed.  This should be accepted by implementations.  Some generate a style-warning.  Similarly for flet, this directly leads to dead code, so you may have some warning.  But so far, it's conforming code: the semantics are well defined.  For LABELS the situation i
2015-08-04T09:34:30Z pjb: different, since we have actually a common scope where the name conflicts and no shadowing is implied.  Furthermore,  different implementations have different ideas on the priority of shadowing and visibility of the declarations.  So it is clearly non-conforming code.  Therefore it would be acceptable for an implementation to signal an error.
2015-08-04T09:34:51Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: then write a CDR. Because it's clearly an undefined aspect.
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2015-08-04T09:39:01Z pjb: Well, for LET we could consider that the bindings in parallel should prevent duplicate variable name and have all implementation signal an error like sbcl.
2015-08-04T09:40:30Z pjb: In anycase it's non-conforming code.
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2015-08-04T09:41:29Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: foreign-string-lenght is for instance not implemented in uffi-compat, while ecl has it, also convert-from/to-foreign-string have nice c-inline definitions in ECL yielding same result but more efficient
2015-08-04T09:42:41Z MatthewRock: Hey guys. I'm writing elisp code, but since it's almost like CL, I would be glad to get some help in here; actual understanding of elisp isn't needed. It's macro time. Here's what I'm doing, and some results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152982
2015-08-04T09:43:14Z MatthewRock: Last result is pretty close to what I want to achieve(it's stripped out of definitions for less space and more readibility), but these are enclosed in unneccessary list. I would like to splice the list, but idk how.
2015-08-04T09:44:43Z pjb: MatthewRock: get help in ##lisp or in #emacs instead.
2015-08-04T09:45:28Z pjb: MatthewRock: `(progn ,@…)
2015-08-04T09:45:52Z pjb: MatthewRock: macros should return a single form, so wrap your multiple forms in a progn.
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2015-08-04T09:46:19Z pjb:  `(progn ,@(loop … :collect form))
2015-08-04T09:49:08Z MatthewRock: pjb: It's not really working, but I guess problem may be elsewhere... Anyway thanks for this suggestion, might prove useful!
2015-08-04T09:49:51Z pjb: Well you don't collect a define-key form, you collect the result of a define-key expression.
2015-08-04T09:49:59Z pjb: I don't know if that result is a form!?
2015-08-04T09:50:42Z pjb: It's not specified in the doc.
2015-08-04T09:50:54Z pjb: You may be collecting nasal daemons.
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2015-08-04T09:56:29Z rritoch: Is there a "do" form? Looking at the docs for progn I don't see one, though I suppose I can use (when T {forms*})
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2015-08-04T09:58:02Z pjb: clhs do
2015-08-04T09:58:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
2015-08-04T09:58:49Z pjb: Otherwise, progn is the do form you're looking for: (progn (progn {forms*}) (progn {other-forms*}))
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2015-08-04T09:59:38Z pjb: alternatively: (prog () do {forms*} do-also {other-forms*} and-do {final-forms*}).
2015-08-04T10:00:40Z loke: pjb: that was sneaky :-)
2015-08-04T10:01:19Z pjb: You ask it? Lisp has it.
2015-08-04T10:01:21Z loke: How about: (loop do (something) do (something-else) do (even-more) until t)
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2015-08-04T10:01:38Z pjb: would do.
2015-08-04T10:01:38Z loke: Plenty of do
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2015-08-04T10:02:25Z pjb: (loop repeat 1 if (zerop x) do (something) else do (something-else))
2015-08-04T10:02:51Z loke: or perhaps (loop do (whatever) return (more))
2015-08-04T10:03:30Z pjb: (loop with x = 1 repeat 1 do (loop repeat 1 if (zerop x) do (loop repeat 1 do (something) do (something-2) do (someting-3)) else do (something-else)))
2015-08-04T10:03:47Z pjb: You ain't need anything else than loop!
2015-08-04T10:03:51Z loke: (destructuring-bind (do) (something) (something-else))
2015-08-04T10:04:06Z loke: (destructuring-bind (do) :do (something) (something-else))
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2015-08-04T10:04:13Z loke: argh
2015-08-04T10:04:15Z loke: I mean
2015-08-04T10:04:20Z loke: (destructuring-bind (do) '(do) (something) (something-else))
2015-08-04T10:05:18Z loke: (multiple-value-bind (do) (something) do)  ;; ok, too silly and I'm done :-)
2015-08-04T10:05:19Z rritoch: loke: Your loop do is actually very close to what I was looking for
2015-08-04T10:05:40Z loke: rritoch: OK< I'm confused. Exactly what are you looking for?
2015-08-04T10:05:49Z loke: (sounds to be like you're looking for TAGBODY)
2015-08-04T10:06:04Z rritoch: It is also much clearer than then (when T ...) syntax since it explicitly defines the return value.
2015-08-04T10:06:20Z loke: rritoch: what's wrong with PROGN?
2015-08-04T10:06:34Z rritoch: Just a way to execute a series of forms and return the final value instead of each form value like progn does.
2015-08-04T10:06:51Z loke: rritoch: Umm... PROGN does return the final value, only.
2015-08-04T10:07:23Z loke: VALUES is the one that returns all forms
2015-08-04T10:08:21Z rritoch: loke: My fault, when I saw "results---the values of the forms. " I thought it returned each value
2015-08-04T10:09:23Z rritoch: Looks like progn is exactly what I'm looking for though. Sorry for wasting everyone's time, though that do form looks very useful,even if it serves a different purpose.
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2015-08-04T10:11:03Z loke: rritoch: It's a bit too useful. I've never actually used it because it combines several things in one form which is better handled by separate forms, such as LOOP, LET or (if one really needs it) TAGBODY
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2015-08-04T10:19:41Z PuercoPop: is there any reason why the author is not using ,(and docstring) instead here? https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret/blob/master/deftag.lisp#L50
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2015-08-04T10:21:02Z loke: PuercoPop: Because if docstring is "foo", then (and docstring) results in "foo", which (and dicstring (list docstring)) results in ("foo")
2015-08-04T10:21:15Z loke: in both cases, they become NIL when docstring is NIL
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2015-08-04T10:22:32Z pjb: and you don't want to insert NIL before declarations for example…
2015-08-04T10:23:09Z pjb: Now, what I do is to use a docstrings variable instead of docstring, that is bound to a list of 0 or 1 string.  Then I can write ,@docstrings
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2015-08-04T10:24:02Z pjb: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-sexp.source-form:parse-body
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2015-08-04T10:31:08Z PuercoPop: loke: Ah I hadn't considered the nil case. Although macroexpand-1 shows that the nil case is handled with the ,@ version I'm unclear as to why splicing nil would elide it altogether. Anyhow it seems a useful trick to know. pjb: Thanks I'll check it out
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2015-08-04T10:33:24Z PuercoPop: another way could be to use (setf (documentation ...)) for the docstring and just leave the declarations in the defmacro form.
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2015-08-04T10:41:43Z PuercoPop: pjb: Your design seems to be better suited than alexandria's for macro writing, I guess it alexandria doesn't incorporate it due to backwards compatibility?
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2015-08-04T11:23:29Z pjb: nil is () this is why ,@() is nop.
2015-08-04T11:24:14Z pjb: It's not a bad idea to use setf documentation (adding an eval-when).
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2015-08-04T11:25:42Z pjb: At one time, you have to grep for your modified operators, but it's worth it.  Of course, in the case of a public library that means that all users should be notified, or to use a new function name.
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2015-08-04T11:42:18Z jason_m: I'm having a hard time with cl-who, getting it to spit out an html5 DTD (*prologue*).  I have a (setf (html-mode) :html5) in a file before a function that I use to generate a page using with-html-output-to-string.  However, loading the file, I still get an XHTML doctype.  After the page loads, I can see that (html-mode) is indeed :html5.  I have to re-compile my page generating function to get html5.
2015-08-04T11:44:01Z jason_m: after the file loads*
2015-08-04T11:45:13Z jason_m: when is the right time, where is the right place to set html-mode?
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2015-08-04T11:50:31Z jackdaniel: at loadtime
2015-08-04T11:50:42Z jackdaniel: #.(setf )
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2015-08-04T11:51:09Z jason_m: I wasn't using the #.prefix, let me try that
2015-08-04T11:51:50Z jackdaniel: #.form means, that form is evaluated at load time
2015-08-04T11:51:59Z jackdaniel: I guess this should help, but not guarantees ;)
2015-08-04T11:52:43Z jason_m: that did the trick!
2015-08-04T11:52:50Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-08-04T11:53:29Z jason_m: given that i just had to recompile the page generating functions after it all loaded, I figured it was something like that.  The setf at compile time didn't have any effect.
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2015-08-04T12:22:20Z jackdaniel: hehe, timespace ^_^ "where is the right place…?" - "at loadtime"
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2015-08-04T13:22:36Z superancetre: hello everyone, i was wondering, just for curiosity sake, is there any common tips to improve performance in lisp program?
2015-08-04T13:22:46Z Vityok: yes
2015-08-04T13:22:57Z Vityok: there are some depending on the lisp you are using
2015-08-04T13:23:05Z Vityok: to run the program
2015-08-04T13:23:15Z superancetre: Vityok: common lisp with sbcl
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2015-08-04T13:23:43Z Vityok: will, we've got ppl who know much more about it on this channel
2015-08-04T13:24:07Z Vityok: but usually it boils down to: 1. avoid consing (allocating memory when it can be avoided)
2015-08-04T13:24:37Z Vityok: 2. declare/declaim priority on code speed (declare (optimize speed)) etc. and get rid of the compiler warnings
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2015-08-04T13:26:30Z Vityok: here is a simple example http://nklein.com/2009/06/optimizing-lisp-some-more/
2015-08-04T13:26:30Z superancetre: Vityok: ok thanks i didnt know you could declare optimisation
2015-08-04T13:26:40Z hydan: superancetre: You should be able to effectively profile first. Sometimes one type declaration can give you significant speedup when you know where to put it.
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2015-08-04T13:28:18Z superancetre: hydan: I'm not asking for a special purpose on mind, just as a general idea, and good practice :) So you can do type declaration too in lisp? interesting
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2015-08-04T13:29:46Z Vityok: superancetre: successful lisp also has a bit of information http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter28.html
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2015-08-04T13:30:08Z superancetre: Vityok:  Thx for the links :)
2015-08-04T13:31:01Z hydan: superancetre: yes, you have an option for that in cl. but going around declaring left and right takes away a lot from advantages of the environment. other than that, you can do DISASSEMBLE as well.
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2015-08-04T13:33:02Z superancetre: hydan: ok thx!
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2015-08-04T13:37:02Z Vityok: superancetre: everything depends on what you want to achieve and on the algorithms you use
2015-08-04T13:37:32Z Vityok: sometimes implementing chunks of code as a macro would do a trick, sometimes not
2015-08-04T13:38:45Z Vityok: I/O is somewhat problematic from performance point of view, however...
2015-08-04T13:39:06Z superancetre: Vityok: macro can do some of the work at compile time i guess?
2015-08-04T13:39:12Z Vityok: yes
2015-08-04T13:40:31Z superancetre: Vityok: i'll have to try that^ but for now macro are a little too scary and complicated
2015-08-04T13:40:46Z Vityok: profile first
2015-08-04T13:40:56Z Vityok: probably it would be needed at all
2015-08-04T13:41:34Z Vityok: measuring some basic info with the time function is a good starting point
2015-08-04T13:41:38Z Vityok: clhs time
2015-08-04T13:41:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm
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2015-08-04T13:42:49Z superancetre: Is there any well known algo/problem that benefits to get implemented with macro?
2015-08-04T13:43:23Z Skrylar: erg?
2015-08-04T13:43:38Z dlowe: the problem of managing program complexity
2015-08-04T13:43:49Z dlowe: it's not a computer science tool
2015-08-04T13:45:02Z Vityok: superancetre: I doubt there is, but macros are useful to make sources more managable and readable and sometimes robust
2015-08-04T13:45:40Z superancetre: Ok thank you!
2015-08-04T13:45:52Z dlowe: Macros are for creating new program syntax. That doesn't really fall under algorithmic problems.
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2015-08-04T13:46:05Z atoztoa: I started LLTHW
2015-08-04T13:46:13Z Vityok: indeed, and for creating DSL
2015-08-04T13:46:31Z dlowe: Maybe there's some way to abuse it to solve algorithmic problems, but it'd take someone smarter than me :)
2015-08-04T13:47:20Z Skrylar: well you could wire up a genetic solver behind macros heh
2015-08-04T13:47:52Z Skrylar: in that case it would be a case of like, "run optimizer on this form using other form as a score and return the most optimal blob from the macro" but it would be highly awkward
2015-08-04T13:47:56Z hydan: superancetre: btw, when people refer to lisp on this channel they usually mean common lisp.
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2015-08-04T13:48:48Z hydan: s/superancetre/atoztoa/
2015-08-04T13:49:15Z dlowe: yeah, the lisp family channel is ##lisp
2015-08-04T13:49:46Z Skrylar: (beep (boop 'BitPuffin))
2015-08-04T13:50:53Z atoztoa: thanks @hydan, @dlowe
2015-08-04T13:51:58Z superancetre: Vityok: DSL is a weird concept to me, i cant make sense to it for now. As i understand it, its defining a new syntax for a specific problem, but in what is it different than just writing function to solve your particular problem?
2015-08-04T13:53:29Z pjb: superancetre: check http://cliki.net/performance
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2015-08-04T13:55:21Z Skrylar: superancetre: sometimes the dsl is more clear
2015-08-04T13:55:36Z pjb: superancetre: notice how algorithms shall be specified in "sufficient" details, but there's no concensus on what level of details should be provided by an algorithm.  As a mathematical construct, we just assume a mathematical theory behind those details.
2015-08-04T13:55:38Z Skrylar: well, the hope is that the dsl is more clear; otherwise there is no point
2015-08-04T13:56:09Z pjb: superancetre: for example, an algorithm could use euclidian geometry, with notion of infinitely small point, infinitely thin, infinitely long lines, and so on.
2015-08-04T13:56:24Z pjb: superancetre: there's no such notion in lisp (or any other "algorithmic" programming language).
2015-08-04T13:57:09Z superancetre: pjb:  i think i'm missing your point, sorry
2015-08-04T13:57:17Z pjb: superancetre: therefore, to implement an euclidian geometric algorithm, you have the choice: either translate it into the mathematics that are provided by the language (eg. modulo arithmetic in C, floating points, etc).
2015-08-04T13:58:00Z pjb: superancetre: or, use macros and all of lisp to implement a DSL letting you manipulate those euclidian geometry abstractions, and thus, letting you implement this algorithm directly in terms of euclidian geometry.
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2015-08-04T13:58:08Z pjb: Here was the point.
2015-08-04T13:58:56Z superancetre: pjb: ok make more sens now ^
2015-08-04T13:59:05Z superancetre: sense*
2015-08-04T13:59:26Z superancetre: thx
2015-08-04T14:00:34Z pjb: superancetre:  notably, if we take this euclidian geometry example, in general, you cannot make the numerical approximation (because we don't have real number, just floating point numbers).  So your DSL would actually keep the notions symbolically.  eg. intersections of lines, parallel lines, etc. You wouldn't compute coordinates, but geometry relationship, which would allow you to attain the result of the algorithm symbolically.
2015-08-04T14:00:56Z pjb: (you could then compute an approximation of the exact symbolic solution, to display the result).
2015-08-04T14:01:20Z pjb: The point is that it's really a different language  with different semantics than what is provided by the CL package.
2015-08-04T14:01:23Z pjb: Hence DSL.
2015-08-04T14:01:27Z pjb: Domain Specific Language.
2015-08-04T14:06:13Z superancetre: pjb: thx for the explanation, i guess i need time to make it clear in my mind
2015-08-04T14:07:35Z pjb: superancetre: here is also an example of wishful programming: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/oGmha6PbAD4/kmpG51wjJ6gJ
2015-08-04T14:08:33Z pjb: superancetre: it's related to DSL since what we do here is to design an algorithmic by describing the solution in an invented language (English with parentheses), and then we implement the functions and macros required to implement this language.
2015-08-04T14:09:07Z BitPuffin: hey Skrylar, did you stop hating me? :)
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2015-08-04T14:11:12Z superancetre: pjb: thx for the link with an example, i'll look into it :)
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2015-08-04T14:13:06Z Skrylar: BitPuffin: i didn't know that i started
2015-08-04T14:14:05Z BitPuffin: Skrylar: I was under the impression that you left nimrod community because of my favorite choice of synonym for "complaining"
2015-08-04T14:14:30Z Skrylar: i left nimrod because they were making concessions to C++ derps
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2015-08-04T14:23:15Z p_l: superancetre: well, in Lisp, you don't really make a new syntax usually for DSL...
2015-08-04T14:23:43Z p_l: superancetre: similar example would be Chef, written in ruby, which uses plain Ruby but people might easily mistake it for DSL
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2015-08-04T14:28:45Z BitPuffin: Skrylar: Well I never saw you online again specifically after I said a thing that you got upset by and left
2015-08-04T14:28:55Z BitPuffin: but maybe you were also tired of nimrod in general
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2015-08-04T14:31:14Z BitPuffin: well I'm pretty sure you were that too, you were mostly hanging in the offtopic channel anyway I believe
2015-08-04T14:32:13Z BitPuffin: Skrylar: So, are you fully using CL now or have you found some other lisp that makes you happy?
2015-08-04T14:32:29Z BitPuffin: Skrylar: You might like dale: https://tomhrr.github.io/dale/
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2015-08-04T14:36:20Z BitPuffin: though it's kind of C++ in lisp
2015-08-04T14:39:12Z BitPuffin: well, at least it leaves out a lot of bad crap of c++
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2015-08-04T14:48:01Z atoztoa: LLTHW is Common Lisp
2015-08-04T14:48:10Z atoztoa: http://learnlispthehardway.org/
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2015-08-04T14:50:56Z Firedancer: What is the easy way to learn Lisp...?
2015-08-04T14:51:15Z durm: sicp
2015-08-04T14:52:04Z BitPuffin: sicp teaches you scheme
2015-08-04T14:52:11Z pjb: Firedancer: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html
2015-08-04T14:52:21Z pjb: BitPuffin: sicp teaches programming, not scheme.
2015-08-04T14:52:30Z BitPuffin: programming with scheme as a tool
2015-08-04T14:52:42Z BitPuffin: a lot of stuff carries over though ofc
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2015-08-04T15:09:37Z atoztoa: Firdancer, i would suggest Learning Lisp The Hard Way. http://learnlispthehardway.org/
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2015-08-04T15:15:09Z dlowe: I would be interested to know the "conversion" rate of these various intros.
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2015-08-04T15:15:48Z dlowe: Like, after going through one of these "learn lisp" programs, how many people go on to write CL and what's the variance?
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2015-08-04T15:17:23Z synchromesh: dlowe: "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot." - Eric Raymond (yes, I know...) via http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
2015-08-04T15:17:40Z dlowe: yes, I wish he hadn't wrote that.
2015-08-04T15:17:59Z atoztoa: it does change you
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2015-08-04T15:20:54Z dlowe: Learning anything changes you. But that quote (which gets bandied about quite a bit) promises an unnecessary "profound enlightenment experience" and simultaneously implies that it's not a thing to actually used
2015-08-04T15:21:47Z atoztoa: yea true, there is no way to express that enlightment unless u have Lips
2015-08-04T15:21:50Z atoztoa: lisp*
2015-08-04T15:22:25Z dlowe: I would rather CL's reputation be "A extremely well designed, stable, industrial strength language with quality implementations suitable for anything from hobby projects to space travel."
2015-08-04T15:22:35Z eudoxia: pretty much what dlowe said
2015-08-04T15:22:44Z eudoxia: all those quotes that promise enlightenment
2015-08-04T15:22:51Z eudoxia: that's just mental masturbation tbh
2015-08-04T15:23:10Z atoztoa: the original article by John McCarthy is really simple and straight forward, without any philosophy
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2015-08-04T15:23:31Z dlowe: Well, people don't quote that :)
2015-08-04T15:23:44Z dlowe: people quote ESR and PG
2015-08-04T15:23:54Z atoztoa: well, all guides atleast mentions McCarthy
2015-08-04T15:24:24Z dwchandler: dlowe: wrt conversion rates... I've read various things over the years, but for some reasons not PCL. PCL finally "converted" me. Just one data point for you. ;)
2015-08-04T15:24:28Z atoztoa: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwi2naGK3o_HAhXDPD4KHb3CCXs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-formal.stanford.edu%2Fjmc%2Frecursive.pdf&ei=I9nAVfb_J8P5-AG9hafYBw&usg=AFQjCNH2qzfoLK-wi43gePnKz0JukyRngQ&sig2=IHc-ZErzLak_VL_AOUj_Cg
2015-08-04T15:24:38Z atoztoa: www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive.pdf
2015-08-04T15:24:47Z dlowe: dwchandler: yeah, PCL is great.
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2015-08-04T15:28:16Z pjb: dlowe: you're asking an interesting question.  Care to write up a proposal to get funds to do the research and studies needed to come with an answer? Or should we just guess as always? ;-)
2015-08-04T15:30:19Z atoztoa: pjb: (car (cdr ‘(i-care not-necessary yeah-do-it)) ; From a friend
2015-08-04T15:30:44Z dlowe: atoztoa: use SECOND
2015-08-04T15:31:08Z pjb: dlowe: Now, CL has a reputation: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp
2015-08-04T15:31:39Z dlowe: It's in cliki so it must be true! :)
2015-08-04T15:31:40Z atoztoa: nice, learnt something
2015-08-04T15:31:48Z pjb: seen on the web!
2015-08-04T15:32:24Z pjb: and in a few hours we'll be able to google it and get at least two hits! (cliki, irc logs).  Anybody care to twitter it too?
2015-08-04T15:33:47Z pjb: dlowe: thought, I made a html transcription so people could quote and link it easily: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html
2015-08-04T15:34:26Z dlowe: pjb: nice.
2015-08-04T15:34:37Z loke_: There is a nice TeX version as well: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive.pdf
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2015-08-04T15:38:39Z pjb: I shall add this link to my aim-8.html page.
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2015-08-04T15:41:06Z loke_: pjb: do you mind explaining something to me?
2015-08-04T15:41:26Z loke_: On page 6 of the PDF version, a few expressions are seen
2015-08-04T15:42:08Z loke_: As fas as I can see (assuming the only values available are T and F), these are equivalent: p ∨ q = (p → T, T → q)
2015-08-04T15:42:10Z loke_: and
2015-08-04T15:42:16Z loke_: p ⊃ q = (p → q, T → T)
2015-08-04T15:42:35Z atoztoa: no
2015-08-04T15:42:38Z loke_: both of them are only F if p and q are both F
2015-08-04T15:42:51Z loke_: Oh wait. you're right
2015-08-04T15:43:07Z loke_: it's F if p is F, regardless of q
2015-08-04T15:43:31Z loke_: What is the operation ⊃ called?
2015-08-04T15:43:41Z atoztoa: XOR?
2015-08-04T15:44:12Z loke_: That's not XOR though.
2015-08-04T15:44:33Z atoztoa: F F -> T
2015-08-04T15:44:41Z atoztoa: F T -> T
2015-08-04T15:44:47Z atoztoa: T F -> F
2015-08-04T15:44:51Z atoztoa: T T -> T
2015-08-04T15:44:57Z loke_: right.
2015-08-04T15:45:10Z atoztoa: u r right, it is not XOR
2015-08-04T15:45:29Z loke_: boole-orc1?
2015-08-04T15:45:51Z atoztoa: ?
2015-08-04T15:46:44Z loke_: I was right. boole-orc1
2015-08-04T15:46:48Z loke_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_b_1_b.htm#boole-orc1
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2015-08-04T15:47:10Z loke_: "or complement of integer-1 with integer-2"
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2015-08-04T15:47:38Z atoztoa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional
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2015-08-04T15:48:31Z loke_: atoztoa: Oh thanks
2015-08-04T15:48:42Z atoztoa: np
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2015-08-04T15:54:41Z pjb: ⊃ is implication. p⊃q ⇔ p⇒q
2015-08-04T15:55:52Z pjb: p⇒q ⇔ ¬p∨q : (p → q, T → T)
2015-08-04T15:56:13Z Vityok: a question regarding CLOS: in defmethod parameters definition, how to specify default values for parameters?
2015-08-04T15:56:33Z Vityok: like in (defun a (&key (k 1)))
2015-08-04T15:56:33Z pjb: you can define default values only for optional and key parameters.
2015-08-04T15:56:43Z pjb: not for mandatory parameters.
2015-08-04T15:56:49Z Bike: just like that. (defmethod a (&key (k 1)))
2015-08-04T15:56:56Z pjb: And you need mandatory parameters to be able to dispatch to different methods.
2015-08-04T15:57:05Z loke_: pjb: a somewhat arbitrary restriction, IMHO
2015-08-04T15:57:13Z Vityok: will CLOS understand that it is the initial value not class-type specification?
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2015-08-04T15:57:19Z pjb: This would be the only method with that method-qualifier.
2015-08-04T15:57:29Z Bike: Vityok: yes, because you can't specialize on keyword parameters anyway.
2015-08-04T15:57:39Z pjb: You can define a generic function with no (mandatory) parameter.
2015-08-04T15:57:43Z loke_: Vityok: You can only dispatch on required arguments
2015-08-04T15:58:13Z Vityok: I am trying to parse the syntax specification in clhs defmethod
2015-08-04T15:58:19Z pjb: Vityok: if you want an "API" with &key and default objects, you can define it to call a generic function with mandatory parameters.
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2015-08-04T15:58:43Z Vityok: clhs defmethod
2015-08-04T15:58:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2015-08-04T15:58:59Z pjb: Vityok: (defgeneric m* (object)) (defmethod m* ((o string)) 's) (defmethod m* ((o integer)) 'i)  (defun m (&key (k 1)) (m* k))
2015-08-04T15:59:10Z pjb: (m :k 42) --> i  (m :k "a") --> s
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2015-08-04T16:02:46Z Vityok: it looks like for &optional and &key parameters it is possible to pass default value via a variable
2015-08-04T16:02:49Z Vityok: will try it out
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2015-08-04T16:09:58Z Vityok: indeed, it works
2015-08-04T16:10:26Z Vityok: optional and key parameters in defmethod can get default values
2015-08-04T16:10:35Z Vityok: just like in defun lambda-list
2015-08-04T16:16:02Z pjb: Of course, we never denied it.
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2015-08-04T16:37:23Z ecraven: does anyone here know of statistics concerning the typical number of parameters to functions and values returned?
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2015-08-04T16:42:56Z pjb: ecraven: you could take a documentation generator, and patch it to print out those statistics.
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2015-08-04T16:43:22Z pjb: ecraven: also, you may want different statistics, on the defined functions, vs. on the called functions.
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2015-08-04T19:20:29Z drmeister: Bike: beach set me right on generating an AST.  I generate an AST and everything I need is in there, the environment is only used to construct the AST.  I see that now.
2015-08-04T19:20:56Z drmeister: Hello, by the way.
2015-08-04T19:21:01Z drmeister: :-)
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2015-08-04T19:22:04Z oleo: hello
2015-08-04T19:22:14Z Bike: yo, dog.
2015-08-04T19:24:35Z oleo: have you seen a cat eat a bull alive ?
2015-08-04T19:24:38Z oleo: lol
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2015-08-04T19:27:28Z drmeister: My next puzzle is once I generate an AST that looks something like this:   http://i.imgur.com/dyD6tEv.png
2015-08-04T19:27:55Z ecraven: hehe, that looks ... convoluted :D
2015-08-04T19:27:58Z drmeister: From something like this: (lambda () (let ((x (foo))) (function (lambda () (let ((y (bar))) (+ x y))))))
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2015-08-04T19:28:55Z drmeister: What is the next stage?  I see the variable-ast X is accessed from inside and outside of a NAMED-FUNCTION, so that's a variable that needs to go into a closure.
2015-08-04T19:29:52Z oleo: it needs state ?
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2015-08-04T19:30:08Z drmeister: I imagine that it will go into a cell and I'll have to inject AST nodes into the outer part of the AST to create the cell and pass it to the "enclose" function that will generate the function object within NAMED-FUNCTION.
2015-08-04T19:30:20Z Bike: this sort of confusion goes a long way towards convincing me that C-whatever's lambdas aren't all bad
2015-08-04T19:30:28Z oleo: if not use an anaphor.....
2015-08-04T19:31:36Z drmeister: oleo: I'm not following - sorry.  I've got a jumble of ideas and no clear plan to connect them together at this point.
2015-08-04T19:31:45Z oleo: ok
2015-08-04T19:31:57Z Bike: oleo is generally a jumble of ideas with no clear plan, don't worry about oleo
2015-08-04T19:32:28Z Bike: how does beach do this? i can't imagine beach doesn't handle closures
2015-08-04T19:32:42Z drmeister: I'm rewriting the bclasp compiler to speed up compilation of cclasp.  I've gone too long with this crippled compiled interpreter.
2015-08-04T19:34:05Z drmeister: beach compiles the AST into HIR which is then transformed using escape analysis that injects code to create cells and assemble closures.   I'm trying to avoid writing a HIR pass and all of the associated classes that go with it.
2015-08-04T19:34:25Z drmeister: I don't have generic dispatch or CLOS at this early stage and Cleavir does all this stuff really well.
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2015-08-04T19:34:56Z drmeister: I'm trying (and beach thinks its doable) to write a simple compiler that goes Sexp-> AST -> modified-AST -> LLVM-IR.
2015-08-04T19:35:31Z drmeister: Given that I already have a compiler that goes Sexp->LLVM-IR I figure it's not that much extra work and should result in a big enough win to speed up the bclasp compiler.
2015-08-04T19:36:24Z Bike: guess you pretty much have to end up with an ast like (lambda () (let ((x (foo))) (function (closure x () (let ((y (bar))) (+ x y)))))) then, yeah...
2015-08-04T19:36:37Z Bike: closure (x) i guess, whatever
2015-08-04T19:37:01Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: I made uffi-compat patch minimal, I think that if someone wants to use unique ECL ffi features, he'll follow manual and use them
2015-08-04T19:37:14Z drmeister: That's a good point.  It's easier to think about if I think of it as transformations of S-exp.
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2015-08-04T19:37:52Z Bike: well, i'm thinking about it that way because i have no idea how the ASTs work :)
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2015-08-04T19:39:52Z drmeister: Maybe  (lambda () (let ((x-heap (cons (foo) nil))) (closure (x-heap) (let ((y (bar))) (+ (car x-heap) y)))...)
2015-08-04T19:40:02Z drmeister: I'm uncertain about the "closure" special operator.
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2015-08-04T19:41:01Z drmeister: Using a CONS cell for the closure (something you and beach taught me several months ago) I can pass x-heap to other closure special-operators and they will refer to the same binding.
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2015-08-04T19:42:28Z drmeister: Cleavir does something more like:
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2015-08-04T19:42:29Z Bike: that's true, it would be kind of easier for it to be a cell. (lambda () (let ((#:gensym (make-cell (foo)))) (symbol-macrolet ((x (access-cell #:gensym))) (closure ...))))
2015-08-04T19:42:57Z Bike: (closure (#:gensym) ...) i guess. this is what i get for not thinking about the actual semantics of the damn thing
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2015-08-04T19:44:36Z drmeister: Hmm, I'll think on that.  It helps frame my questions to beach when I talk to him next.
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2015-08-04T19:45:40Z drmeister: In Cleavir there is an instruction ENCLOSE that takes any number of cells, puts them into an array and returns a closure whose code refers to that array of cells.
2015-08-04T19:45:40Z Bike: i guess what (closure (&rest values) &body body) does is allocate and return a closure, which is a structure containing a vector of values along with a "function", which is whatever code with no free variables
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2015-08-04T19:45:50Z Bike: so basically enclose, yeah.
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2015-08-04T21:29:32Z resttime: do lisp bindings inherit the license of the original C library?
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2015-08-04T21:30:00Z resttime: or should i use something like MIT or LGPL?
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2015-08-04T21:31:51Z eudoxia: well, they inherit it if its something like LGPL or GPL
2015-08-04T21:32:00Z eudoxia: if it's MIT you can probably release as BSD
2015-08-04T21:32:21Z myrkraverk: Or even a mozilla-derived license.
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2015-08-04T21:34:54Z jlarocco_work: I'm not sure they do inherit if it's something like LGPL or GPL
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2015-08-04T21:35:20Z joshe: you can release your code as whatever you want, copyright law states that you own any new code you write
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2015-08-04T21:36:01Z jlarocco_work: assuming it doesn't modify the library's code, and assuming you're not distributing binding code with the original project, then I think you can use whatever you want
2015-08-04T21:36:23Z joshe: but if it's for a specific library and not a generic interface then using the same license may be less confusing
2015-08-04T21:36:53Z jlarocco_work: I think it gets more problematic if you're distributing a binary that links to the library, but I don't think that's very common with Lisp bindings
2015-08-04T21:37:09Z jlarocco_work: but it is less confusing to just use the original license
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2015-08-04T21:39:34Z resttime: okay, thanks everyone
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2015-08-04T22:01:34Z ebrasca: hi
2015-08-04T22:02:13Z ebrasca: i am reading sdl2kit code
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2015-08-04T22:03:36Z ebrasca: http://pastebin.com/JDFSjURD
2015-08-04T22:05:03Z zvb: that's a particular type of 'method combination'
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2015-08-04T22:05:17Z zvb: so, are you familiar with the standard method combination?
2015-08-04T22:05:52Z zvb: ebrasca are you familiar with the standard method combination?
2015-08-04T22:06:22Z ebrasca: zvb: no , i am not familiar
2015-08-04T22:07:17Z zvb: k, so in common lisp a particular generic function call can result in multiple methods being called
2015-08-04T22:07:43Z zvb: and the different ways of combining those multiple methods are called method combinations
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2015-08-04T22:07:56Z zvb: as a simple example, the + method combination runs each method, and sums the results
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2015-08-04T22:09:26Z zvb: in this case, the PROGN method combination just finds the applicable methods and runs them one after another, as though they were in a (progn (METHOD-1) (METHOD-2))
2015-08-04T22:09:32Z zvb: clear as mud, right?
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2015-08-04T22:11:32Z zvb: ebrasca: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html has a really good explanation
2015-08-04T22:11:37Z zvb: better than i can do
2015-08-04T22:11:48Z ebrasca: zvb: yes . Thank you
2015-08-04T22:12:11Z ebrasca: zvb: i write slow and read slow
2015-08-04T22:12:22Z zvb: ebrasca: no worries
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2015-08-04T22:19:24Z ebrasca: zvb: can you explain me how you make your code?
2015-08-04T22:20:01Z zvb: ebrasca: how do you mean? do you mean what tools i use to write code? i didn't write sdl2kit, but i do write some lisp
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2015-08-04T22:22:12Z zvb: ebrasca: i use emacs + slime as my text editor. emacs has a very rich suite of tools for editing common lisp
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2015-08-04T22:23:22Z zvb: ebrasca: or did you mean, 'how does a programmer know which method combinations to use?' that's a much more complex question
2015-08-04T22:23:35Z ebrasca: zvb: how you write your lisp code?. what tools you use? . how you start new project?
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2015-08-04T22:24:40Z zvb: ebrasca: i use emacs + slime; xach's quickproject http://xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ is very useful to quickly create a little project
2015-08-04T22:25:00Z zvb: ebrasca: i like to write my README files in either Markdown or org-mode formats
2015-08-04T22:25:40Z zvb: ebrasca: i use slime to load up a running lisp process, and load (and reload, and re-re-load…) my code into that running lisp process as i develop.
2015-08-04T22:26:07Z zvb: ebrasca: does that help?
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2015-08-04T22:27:42Z ebrasca: zvb: yes , that help . i going to make log file with your answers
2015-08-04T22:28:33Z zvb: ebrasca: i forgot to mention to i use sbcl.  it's a pretty solid common lisp implementation.  i've heard good things about allegro & lispworks, but have used neither of them
2015-08-04T22:29:19Z resttime: ebrasca, grab paredit and rainbow parenthesis too if you don't have them for emacs
2015-08-04T22:29:37Z zvb: ebrasca: good luck!  common lisp is unlike many other languages, but it's really, really nice once you learn it.  write enough of it, and you might never want to use anything else (although i'll admit other languages have their place too: i'm really fond of google's go right now)
2015-08-04T22:30:06Z zvb: ebrasca: oh yeah, bbatsov's prelude is a great starter kit for emacs.  comes with common lisp support (although you need to enable it)
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2015-08-05T00:30:38Z superanc`: is an .asd file a lisp file? Should i be able C-c C-c to "load" it with slime?
2015-08-05T00:31:24Z Bike: they used to be and that's probably still the case, but you probably shouldn't
2015-08-05T00:32:34Z superanc`: ok, is there a way to verify that what i wrote is correct?
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2015-08-05T00:33:32Z Bike: asdf:load-system?
2015-08-05T00:34:20Z superanc`: it says my system is not found so i must have broken something^
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2015-08-05T00:35:04Z Bike: nah, that's just the weird way asdf works. try (push #p"/folder/with/your/asd" asdf:*central-registry*)
2015-08-05T00:37:40Z axion: can anyone recommend some ontopic rss feeds?
2015-08-05T00:37:45Z PuercoPop: superanc`: C-c C-c compiles not loads it. Idk why but C-c C-l works for 'informing' about modifications to the asd. Also see ql:quickload
2015-08-05T00:38:26Z PuercoPop: and compiling teh .asd files always gives me trouble with the relative pathname. (idkw)
2015-08-05T00:39:01Z superanc`: Bike: he is telling me its not a absolute directory
2015-08-05T00:39:44Z Bike: huh?
2015-08-05T00:40:54Z superanc`: Bike:  (push
2015-08-05T00:40:55Z superanc`:        #p"/home/superancetre/Documents/..." asdf:*central-registry*) and then try (asdf:load-system :my-lib)
2015-08-05T00:41:13Z superanc`: tell me hat its not a absolute path
2015-08-05T00:42:14Z superanc`: Bike:  anyway, ill like into that tomorow, thx for the tips
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2015-08-05T00:42:54Z pjb: superanc`: .asd files are definitely lisp files.  They may contain a lot of thing beside the system definition form.  However, it's better if they contain only the system defintion form, since this makes it easier to process them as data by tools.
2015-08-05T00:43:45Z pjb: That said, making it easier, doesn't mean it's possible since there are anyways read-time and compilation-time side effects that may be needed to further the processing of the tool.
2015-08-05T00:44:13Z pjb: If you only consider the system defintion form, you will have #+asdf-unicode and #+asdf3  read-time stuff.
2015-08-05T00:45:15Z pjb: asdf:*central-registry* should contain directory pathnames.
2015-08-05T00:45:40Z pjb: If you put a file pathname it will work, but not for the reason you believe. It will work because of the way merge-pathnames works.
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2015-08-05T00:47:57Z jason_m: I'm playing with clsql and the sqlite3 backend.  I'm seeing that changes made in the DB are not always reflected when re-queried in the application.  Is this an issue in clsql?  A limitation of sqlite3?  User error? http://paste.lisp.org/display/153027
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2015-08-05T00:52:30Z jason_m: i wonder if the first clsql:select results are being cached?
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2015-08-05T00:58:21Z pjb: It's a feature of most ORMs.
2015-08-05T00:58:36Z pjb: They do.
2015-08-05T00:58:44Z pjb: There must be a flag somewhere to disable it
2015-08-05T00:59:03Z pjb: The be ready for the performance hit, since now you will be fetching from the DB all the time.
2015-08-05T00:59:19Z jason_m: there is clsql:*CACHE-TABLE-QUERIES-DEFAULT* which evaluates to nil
2015-08-05T00:59:36Z pjb: :-(
2015-08-05T00:59:36Z jason_m: i'm looking through the docs for other cache flags
2015-08-05T00:59:52Z pjb: (apropos "CACHE" "CLSQL")
2015-08-05T01:01:35Z jason_m: well that's handy
2015-08-05T01:02:13Z jason_m: but i don't think the results are any help
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2015-08-05T01:05:25Z jason_m: I tried a flush, that was no help either: (clsql:cache-table-queries t :action :flush)
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2015-08-05T01:07:07Z pjb: If you have multiple connections, perhaps you need https://www.sqlite.org/c3ref/enable_shared_cache.html ?
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2015-08-05T01:11:15Z jason_m: hmm, perhaps.  which maybe i could enable using the init-function in the connection spec? http://clsql.b9.com/manual/sqlite3.html
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2015-08-05T01:12:45Z jason_m: (I don't have an immediate need for this kind of behavior, but I want to know what I can and can't do)
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2015-08-05T01:38:21Z jason_m: if I did the uffi part right, enabling shared cache didn't make a difference.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/153027#1
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2015-08-05T01:53:16Z pjb: Now would be time to check the update and select?
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2015-08-05T01:56:58Z hegel: Hi, I'm getting 'Component "self" not found' when using clack, but I can't seem to find where it's coming from
2015-08-05T01:57:39Z jason_m: update and select works as expected
2015-08-05T01:58:00Z hegel: getting 'debugger invoked on a ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:MISSING-COMPONENT in thread'
2015-08-05T02:03:54Z hegel: could this be an asdf cache issue?
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2015-08-05T02:07:47Z hegel: backtrace: http://pastebin.com/dG66PHKi
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2015-08-05T02:09:15Z Bike: what are you trying to load, exactly?
2015-08-05T02:09:56Z pjb: Where does the system named "self" come from?
2015-08-05T02:10:03Z Bike: and do you have a system called that?
2015-08-05T02:10:04Z hegel: a web app template from boretti's lucerne built on clack
2015-08-05T02:10:52Z hegel: The "self" appears to come from asdf, wouldn't ever use the name self!
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2015-08-05T02:11:31Z hegel: there's an issue here that looks similar: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/pull/104
2015-08-05T02:12:03Z Bike: asdf does not use asdf to load itself, as far as i know, and even if it did it wouldn't have a name like 'self'. do you have the asd for whatever you're building?
2015-08-05T02:12:15Z hegel: is it a good idea to clear out whatever's in ~/.cache?
2015-08-05T02:12:30Z hegel: Bike: i'll paste, one sec
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2015-08-05T02:13:05Z Bike: i don't think the fact the call involves the cache (as all calls would) necessarily means that's the problem
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2015-08-05T02:14:26Z hegel: http://pastebin.com/asNrje97
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2015-08-05T02:16:33Z hegel: oh! i think this is a problem with the sass preprocessor
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2015-08-05T02:17:39Z hegel: it appears I don't have "sass"
2015-08-05T02:18:00Z hegel: i hate the web... just want to write code... what is all this style nonsense...
2015-08-05T02:19:10Z hegel: aaaand now I apparently need an entire ruby toolchain for this thing
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2015-08-05T02:19:54Z Bike: eudoxia is around here sometimes, i think, maybe you could interrogate them
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2015-08-05T02:20:36Z hegel: ok
2015-08-05T02:21:11Z hegel: found a workaround, going to try loading now...
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2015-08-05T02:22:26Z hegel: ok looks like a ruby problem
2015-08-05T02:22:37Z hegel: forget sass for now
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2015-08-05T03:02:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-05T03:08:50Z loke: hegel: The Web is indeed a horrible place to do development
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2015-08-05T03:44:58Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir ASTs are different from traditional ASTs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_syntax_tree).  Traditional ASTs are used for languages with complicated syntax.  Such languages need a representation that is closer to Common Lisp forms (after having bean READ) and that's the role played by traditional ASTs.
2015-08-05T03:45:04Z beach: Common Lisp obviously don't need another similar representation.  So in Cleavir I use the term AST to mean a representation in which the environment has already played its role.  You can think of it as a "minimally compiled" (see the Common Lisp HyperSpec) version of the program.
2015-08-05T03:45:26Z Bike: whydja call it an AST then? i've been wondering about that.
2015-08-05T03:46:03Z beach: Lack of imagination coming up with names of things?
2015-08-05T03:46:18Z Bike: ah, the grand tradition.
2015-08-05T03:46:19Z beach: I could call it an ASG since it is not a tree.
2015-08-05T03:46:35Z Bike: i've just been wondering since they're totally different from usual syntax trees, as you said
2015-08-05T03:46:48Z beach: Yeah, sorry. :(
2015-08-05T03:47:28Z beach: I just wanted to alert drmeister that he can't use the term AST for the Cleavir thing when talking to people who are not familiar with Cleavir.
2015-08-05T03:47:47Z Bike: oh i see.
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2015-08-05T04:12:16Z beach: bean?
2015-08-05T04:12:24Z beach: Too early in the morning I guess.
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2015-08-05T04:21:13Z White_Flame: so it's not Abstract, it's not Syntax, and it's not a Tree.  Gotcha :)
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2015-08-05T04:25:17Z beach: I am thinking I should introduce a SCOPE-AST for use with high DEBUG settings.  Currently, variables go in and out of scope based on liveness.  The SCOPE-AST could be used to artificially keep variables alive so that they could be inspected in a debugger.
2015-08-05T04:25:51Z loke: hello beach
2015-08-05T04:25:54Z loke: and White_Flame
2015-08-05T04:26:18Z White_Flame: re
2015-08-05T04:27:16Z White_Flame: beach: I agree.  I was wondering how that introspection would be accomplished, as I didn't see anything like that skimming it now
2015-08-05T04:27:23Z Zhivago: Going in and out of lexical scope based on liveness seems ... wrong.
2015-08-05T04:28:08Z White_Flame: Zhivago: the storage location can go in & out of existence based on liveness, so that's not really far off
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2015-08-05T04:28:34Z loke: We wrote an open source web-based chat system (like Slack). Implemented in Common Lisp and Clojurescript. Do you want to test it?
2015-08-05T04:28:40Z loke: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2015-08-05T04:28:47Z White_Flame: yet another IRC competitor!
2015-08-05T04:28:53Z White_Flame: announced on IRC :)
2015-08-05T04:28:57Z loke: (I just deployed an external server on a google compute engine for testing)
2015-08-05T04:29:17Z loke: White_Flame: It's generally designed for corporate chat (that's how we use it)
2015-08-05T04:32:03Z loke: It's not an announcement though. The code is not uploaded yet, since there is still some internal hardcoded stuff that needs to be removed. But I figured that t he fact that it's in Common Lisp would interest people here.
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2015-08-05T04:34:21Z drmeister: Hi everybody
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2015-08-05T04:35:42Z loke: Hello rdmeister
2015-08-05T04:35:44Z loke: dr
2015-08-05T04:35:51Z beach: Hi drmeister.
2015-08-05T04:36:55Z drmeister just checked into the Double Tree hotel and is gnawing on his complementary warm chocolate chip cookie.
2015-08-05T04:37:13Z loke: http://www.chicagonow.com/the-beeronaut/files/2011/06/Meister-Brau-157x300.jpg
2015-08-05T04:37:57Z drmeister: beach: Hello,  what would you recommend I do with the VARIABLE-AST nodes and the SETQ nodes associated with them once I realize that they need to be in closures?
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2015-08-05T04:39:49Z drmeister: Bike and I were talking about sort of transforming things like this:   (lambda () (let ((x (foo))) (function (lambda () (let ((y (bar))) (+ x y))))))
2015-08-05T04:41:11Z beach: drmeister: I would think you need to do what Bike suggested, and what is similar to what we do at the HIR level now.  Pass cells to closure creation.
2015-08-05T04:41:22Z drmeister:  (lambda () (let ((xcell (make-cell (foo)l))) (closure (xcell) (let ((y (bar))) (+ (read-cell xcell) y)))...)
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2015-08-05T04:42:35Z drmeister: Right, I have this function that acts as ENCLOSE...
2015-08-05T04:42:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/o1SjOW1p/
2015-08-05T04:43:14Z drmeister: It's got some other arguments like the lambda name, source file name, filepos etc but you basically pass it the pointer to the function llvm_func and any number of cells.
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2015-08-05T04:43:45Z drmeister: It allocates an array of cells on the heap and creates a closure with that array and the function.
2015-08-05T04:46:41Z drmeister: And I guess the SETQ for that variable has to become a MAKE-CELL/WRITE-CELL or do I set something in the VARIABLE-AST that indicates that a cell should be created and written to.   I'm a bit puzzled by what to do there.
2015-08-05T04:47:17Z drmeister: I think I'll just implement this and then puzzle over it once I try to generate code for it.  Answers usually present themselves when I finally have a clear question.
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2015-08-05T04:48:17Z beach: Right.  I can't give you advice without having attempted to implement it.  My hunch is that you should change the SETQ-ASTs to WRITE-CELL-ASTs, etc.
2015-08-05T04:48:50Z beach: But my hunches frequently turn out wrong once I see the final code.
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2015-08-05T04:58:33Z beach: drmeister: I have a question for you.   When you wrote Clasp, did you expect your simple approach to compilation to be faster than it finally turned out to be?  I suppose the answer is "yes", given that you were disappointed in the performance of the final result.  Right?
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2015-08-05T05:08:06Z drmeister: beach: absolutely I expected my simple approach to be faster than it finally turned out to be.  Certainly faster than the 500x to 1000x slower than C++.
2015-08-05T05:08:40Z drmeister: The day I realized (about a year ago) that it was as slow as it was was one of the darkest days of my life.
2015-08-05T05:08:57Z beach: So I have come to understand, yes.
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2015-08-05T05:09:06Z drmeister: Right.
2015-08-05T05:09:21Z drmeister: Shortly after that I contacted you about Cleavir.
2015-08-05T05:09:29Z beach: Yes, I remember.
2015-08-05T05:10:04Z loke: Where was the slowness coming from?
2015-08-05T05:10:07Z drmeister: I still don't know how to write a half decent compiler.   I've been stuck with this compiled/interpreter for a year now.
2015-08-05T05:10:24Z drmeister: loke: Lots of things but mainly all bindings are on the heap and there is no inlining.
2015-08-05T05:10:57Z brucem: drmeister: Maybe that's why you were able to do it. If you knew, you might not have tried. :)
2015-08-05T05:13:27Z drmeister: Aggressive inlining and putting as many bindings on the stack and registers is the key.
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2015-08-05T05:34:01Z beach: drmeister: Unless your function calls are very costly, which they shouldn't be, inlining in itself won't buy you much.  It's the additional optimizations made possible by inlining that makes inlining so important.
2015-08-05T05:34:44Z beach: drmeister: So for your improved bclasp compiler, since you don't have any optimizations to speak of, you might skip inlining initially.
2015-08-05T05:35:10Z pjb: White_Flame: It's not AST, it's ĀS̄T̄; using the same notation as for negative digits: $21̄.1̄1̄ = $18.89
2015-08-05T05:35:22Z drmeister: I will skip inlining.
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2015-08-05T05:37:16Z beach: In fact, inlining without subsequent optimizations might make performance worse, because your code gets bigger so cache misses become more likely.
2015-08-05T05:38:38Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-05T05:38:49Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-08-05T05:42:17Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-08-05T05:42:40Z jackdaniel: hah, give me time to finish my coffee!
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2015-08-05T07:13:17Z jackdaniel: hue hue hue, windows 10 has freemium solitare game - you remove ads for 9.99$/y
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2015-08-05T07:21:59Z myrkraverk: Yeah, everyone and his dog is jumping on the freemium bandwagon.
2015-08-05T07:22:29Z Zhivago: We need a freemium lisp.
2015-08-05T07:22:58Z _death: 0.1$ per gc
2015-08-05T07:22:59Z Zhivago: You can use 50 parentheses per day, after which you should pay one star for an additional 50.
2015-08-05T07:23:49Z theos: people still use windoze?
2015-08-05T07:24:53Z myrkraverk: Zhivago: the only problem is payment processors handling stars.
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2015-08-05T07:26:12Z myrkraverk: Though I have heard it's possible to put random stuff in the bitcoin block chain, so maybe transferring stars that way is possible.
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2015-08-05T07:28:23Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: this will greatly improve macro-buiseness which reduce number of parens :D
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2015-08-05T08:01:09Z pjb: minion: memo for Vityok: I refactored lispdoc to be able to define different output formats.  There's a html generator and a text generator. You could derive a reStructuredText generator from the text generator. cf. https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/lispdoc ; it'll be in quicklisp next month.
2015-08-05T08:01:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Vityok when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-05T09:45:41Z antoszka: Guys, are any of you using spacemacs with the stock-provided SLIME? The REPL runs fine, but getting "Not connected." whenever I want to do anything (like compile form/buffer) from a visited lisp file.
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2015-08-05T11:33:56Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| CFFI 0.16.0, ASDF 3.1.5, cl-launch 4.1.4, SBCL 1.2.13, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
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2015-08-05T11:41:36Z ebrasca: / #librecmc
2015-08-05T11:41:40Z ebrasca: sori
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2015-08-05T12:00:48Z Skrylar: i should work on that toy lisp reader today
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2015-08-05T12:24:40Z Skrylar: hmm
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2015-08-05T12:24:59Z Skrylar: wonder if anyone knows any whitepapers off the top of their head for how efficient cons cells tend to be
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2015-08-05T12:25:17Z eudoxia: well, i mean
2015-08-05T12:25:21Z Skrylar: i've always been skeptical of them but it may be illfounded
2015-08-05T12:25:23Z theos: not very efficient
2015-08-05T12:25:25Z eudoxia: in terms of space, it's two machine words
2015-08-05T12:25:36Z eudoxia: in terms of speed, it's a pointer dereference for each car and cdr
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2015-08-05T12:25:58Z Skrylar: i was thinking about how games / realtime code tends to use bank types or local arrays
2015-08-05T12:26:39Z Skrylar: when i last wrote some CL code I was skeptical about using stock CL lists to manage the rectangles during a rectangle allocation routine because it seemed a little... less than elegant
2015-08-05T12:27:10Z Skrylar: admittedly i'm not well versed in writing good CL code so its entirely possible there was an appropriate vector type to have used
2015-08-05T12:27:47Z jackdaniel: if you traverse list sequentially (no random access), then list should be a good fit
2015-08-05T12:28:10Z eudoxia: right. arrays are for fast random access, lists are for fast editing.
2015-08-05T12:28:19Z jackdaniel: exactly
2015-08-05T12:28:51Z Skrylar: i tend to ponder about memory fragmentation though this is when somebody says 'you shouldnt worry about it'
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2015-08-05T12:29:53Z Skrylar: its also possible such things might not necessarily matter if you take the Abuse engine's method of having lisp threads where you just wipe out all of their memory at the start of a cycle
2015-08-05T12:30:17Z jackdaniel: call of (make-list n) should allocate memory without fragmentation
2015-08-05T12:32:04Z Skrylar: i'll have to look in to it later
2015-08-05T12:32:22Z Skrylar: the last CL code i wrote as mentioned, was an implemntation of maxrects and i was uncomfortable with the way it worked
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2015-08-05T12:32:50Z Skrylar: though i think lisps tend to reserve the right to relocate memory, so even if they did cause fragmentation it 'shouldnt matter'
2015-08-05T12:33:10Z jackdaniel: abstract things enough to be able to change internal representation
2015-08-05T12:33:31Z jackdaniel: if you are afraid of list performance you'll be able to switch later
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2015-08-05T12:38:33Z Skrylar: it surprised me how simple the parser turned out to be after reading the hyperspec
2015-08-05T12:38:44Z Skrylar: well, simple in a sense of you already have to have the interpreter of sorts
2015-08-05T12:39:08Z Skrylar: though this is actually not different from D2 or sufficiently advanced non-lisps which do a poor job of essentially doing macros
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2015-08-05T13:01:44Z White_Flame: Skrylar: due to the nature of GCs to follow links while finding objects to move, many times successive cons cells and their contents should lie very close in memory
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2015-08-05T13:02:22Z White_Flame: so there are potentially cache benefits, and yes, memory fragmentation really doesn't exist on copying GCs
2015-08-05T13:03:03Z White_Flame: (though some platforms use different allocation pools for varying large objects, which might end up with some hopefully transient fragmentation issues)
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2015-08-05T13:30:20Z oleo: hello
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2015-08-05T13:53:53Z atoztoa: hello
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2015-08-05T13:57:19Z loke_: hello
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2015-08-05T14:05:55Z dvb_ua: how to recompile/reinstall package installed with quicklisp?
2015-08-05T14:06:22Z jackdaniel: just quickload it
2015-08-05T14:06:43Z dvb_ua: ok, ty.
2015-08-05T14:06:51Z jackdaniel: to force recompilation of packages you may remove cache (probabl ~/.cache/common-lisp/*)
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2015-08-05T14:07:20Z jackdaniel: if you changed software inside quicklisp directories, then remove quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/offending-files
2015-08-05T14:07:31Z jackdaniel: and it will redownload them
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2015-08-05T14:14:01Z loke_: Or to update: (QL:UPDATE-ALL-DISTS)
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2015-08-05T14:18:01Z myrkraverk: This is usually what happens when I refactor into CL: Where did all my code go?
2015-08-05T14:19:16Z oleo: there's incremental development you know ?
2015-08-05T14:19:24Z oleo: like don't touch the older version......
2015-08-05T14:19:40Z oleo: stead work on a copy....
2015-08-05T14:20:02Z oleo: if you screw you'll have a chance to correct it....
2015-08-05T14:20:06Z myrkraverk: oleo: I mean, when I refactor from other programming languages.
2015-08-05T14:20:08Z oleo: if it get out of hand i mean.....
2015-08-05T14:20:14Z oleo: ah
2015-08-05T14:20:20Z oleo: that i don't know
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2015-08-05T14:47:41Z lambda-smith: Hi eudoxia!
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2015-08-05T14:54:17Z eudoxia: hi lambda-smith
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2015-08-05T16:44:45Z k-stz: ah, so STEP requires the function to be in a text file to work in the first place
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2015-08-05T17:33:08Z pjb: Skrylar: nowadays, garbage collection is most often implemented as a generational copying garbage collector, therefore there is no memory fragmentation. On the contrary, if the copying phase is done correctly, it will copy lists linearly, and you'll get in RAM a vector of linked cons cells in consecutive addresses, followed by a vector of data in consecutive addresses, in bland cases.  Therefore you'll get as good a cache behavior wit
2015-08-05T17:33:09Z pjb: lists than with arrays (modulo the size overhead).
2015-08-05T17:34:47Z pjb: k-stz: that's not what's specified in clhs.  But you may have a strange implementation.
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2015-08-05T17:59:55Z theseb: I tried to create an alias to defparameter....(defparameter define 'defparameter) ....but then when i tried to use the alias as (define a 2) it bombed...why?
2015-08-05T18:00:32Z Bike: separate function and variable namespaces. defparameter defines a variable, not a function (or macro) like defparameter
2015-08-05T18:01:05Z theseb: Bike:thanks..to make it work is there some analog of defparameter for functions?
2015-08-05T18:01:14Z theseb: (deffunction ...) ? :)
2015-08-05T18:01:24Z Bike: defun. though you'd want defmacro.
2015-08-05T18:01:35Z Bike: (defmacro define (&rest args) `(defparameter ,@args))
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2015-08-05T18:02:59Z theseb: Bike: (defun define 'defparameter) bombed too
2015-08-05T18:03:08Z theseb: sounds like i *need* a macro
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2015-08-05T18:03:39Z Bike: ok, well, you do need a macro, but not because that bombed.
2015-08-05T18:03:47Z Bike: i've seen you in this channel for months, don't you know the syntax for defun?
2015-08-05T18:03:58Z theseb: i've been doing scheme
2015-08-05T18:04:05Z theseb: just started going thru land of lisp
2015-08-05T18:04:07Z theseb: :)
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2015-08-05T18:04:25Z Bike: man.
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2015-08-05T18:04:49Z Bike: well, if you want to write it as a set like that, you'd do (setf (macro-function 'define) (macro-function 'defparameter)). at least i think that's legal.
2015-08-05T18:06:26Z theseb: Bike:how would it be done with defun?
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2015-08-05T18:07:00Z Bike: it wouldn't be. in the first place, neither defparameter nor your define are functions.
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2015-08-05T18:16:17Z dlowe: if you try to make CL be like scheme, you will just be frustrated
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2015-08-05T18:32:34Z reb: Anyone who is interested in turning Common Lisp into Scheme should take a look at PseudoScheme.  http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/
2015-08-05T18:34:23Z dlowe: unless you can't pull yourself away from the dashingly attractive CL community, it seems to me that there are already fine Scheme implementations out there if you want to use scheme
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2015-08-05T18:48:38Z theseb: Bike: thanks..i thought your setf version was quite elegant btw
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2015-08-05T19:08:43Z hegel: what's the difference between the scheme style and the CL style?
2015-08-05T19:12:24Z dwchandler: about 10 quatloos
2015-08-05T19:13:39Z akkad: wow
2015-08-05T19:13:47Z akkad: Stelian here?
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2015-08-05T19:14:44Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: yes
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2015-08-05T19:15:10Z akkad: https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ links to http://gitorious.org/bordeaux-threads/bordeaux-threads which says "moved to https://gitlab.com/bordeaux-threads/bordeaux-threads." so make a gitlab account to submit a patch, and get an email "Please open pull requests on github. The repositories here are only for backup."
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2015-08-05T19:18:24Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: ok, I'll fix the site
2015-08-05T19:18:29Z akkad: ty
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2015-08-05T19:18:40Z akkad: github is obvious the nicer choice :P
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2015-08-05T20:08:56Z akkad: fe[nl]ix: is loading the test sufficient?
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2015-08-05T20:17:16Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: (asdf:test-system :bordeaux-threads)
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2015-08-05T20:27:26Z pjb: hegel: no difference: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
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2015-08-05T20:46:27Z myrkraverk: sbcl threads on os x are "experimental" - does that mean that some stuff works and some doesn't?  Or does it just mean it's not properly tested?
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2015-08-05T20:51:54Z H4ns: myrkraverk: it means that threads are tricky business and it is not entirely impossible that serious bugs exist.
2015-08-05T20:52:13Z myrkraverk: Fair enough.
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2015-08-05T20:52:40Z H4ns: myrkraverk: in my experience, though, all bugs are my own and it is very rare for me to find bugs in sbcl that really cause me trouble.
2015-08-05T20:53:58Z myrkraverk: Good to know - I want to prototype an algorithm in sbcl, and may want to try some parallelism.
2015-08-05T20:54:24Z myrkraverk: Though I only have two cores, so I'm not sure how much my parallelism will show.
2015-08-05T20:55:49Z H4ns: myrkraverk: if you have any doubts regarding the dependability of threads on sbcl, just keep a virtual machine with linux available so that you can bisect the problem between your code and the threads implementation.
2015-08-05T20:56:14Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2015-08-05T20:56:48Z myrkraverk: I probably won't have a problem testing on Linux - maybe I can even get access to a machine with more cares.
2015-08-05T20:56:51Z myrkraverk: *cores
2015-08-05T20:57:12Z myrkraverk: But I'm going to do the initial coding on os x.
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2015-08-05T21:06:32Z akkad: fe[nl]ix: Running test CONDITION-VARIABLE has hung
2015-08-05T21:06:43Z akkad: could explain issue I had with join never completing
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2015-08-05T21:22:14Z bitwiggler: is that sbcl?
2015-08-05T21:22:17Z akkad: no lw
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2015-08-05T21:23:02Z bitwiggler: why would bordeaux-threads support closed source? I'm sure they don't need you trying to make it work. in fact I'm surprised if even quicklisp would work on non-free lisp
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2015-08-05T21:23:46Z akkad: ok
2015-08-05T21:26:09Z Bike: they'd support it so you can use the same code across implementations, like usual. bt does support allegro.
2015-08-05T21:26:17Z Bike: or claims to, at least.
2015-08-05T21:28:46Z akkad: mp:current-process-send and mp:mailbox-wait are new, and need to be used. so more code :P
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2015-08-05T22:07:51Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: ping
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2015-08-05T22:36:14Z resttime: my first common lisp project is now available in quicklisp
2015-08-05T22:36:18Z resttime: how exciting :D
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2015-08-05T22:36:40Z dwchandler: grats :)
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2015-08-05T22:45:38Z pjb: one anonymous project amongst 3000…
2015-08-05T22:46:15Z pjb: resttime: nope: System "my first common lisp project" not found
2015-08-05T22:47:21Z p_l: resttime: gratz
2015-08-05T22:49:59Z resttime: (eq (%first-common-lisp-project (make-instance '<resttime>) 'cl-liballegro))
2015-08-05T22:50:12Z resttime: T
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2015-08-05T23:20:48Z pjb updating quicklisp.
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2015-08-05T23:21:15Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for jason_m: If you want to discard if clsql is doing any kind of caching in the lisp side enable start-sql-recording: http://clsql.b9.com/manual/start-sql-recording.html
2015-08-05T23:21:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jason_m when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-06T02:15:45Z opcode: hey, when comparing floating point numbers can I just use the = function or would I need to do something more like (<= (- float1 float2) 0.0001) or similar?
2015-08-06T02:16:16Z Zhivago: It depends on what you mean to compare.
2015-08-06T02:16:39Z opcode: i'd like to compare two floating point numbers
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2015-08-06T02:18:43Z Zhivago: What does that mean?
2015-08-06T02:18:55Z Zhivago: What are you comparing them for?
2015-08-06T02:19:11Z Zhivago: When you can answer this question, the choice of comparitor should be obvious.
2015-08-06T02:19:51Z opcode: i'm comparing them for equality, but in other languages the realities of floating point math dictate that you can't always use "==
2015-08-06T02:19:55Z opcode: "
2015-08-06T02:20:16Z Zhivago: Are 1.0000000000000000000 and 0.999999999999999999999999999999999 equal?
2015-08-06T02:20:40Z opcode: yeah, you're missing my point
2015-08-06T02:20:47Z opcode: when you do a series of floating point ops
2015-08-06T02:21:04Z opcode: you might get an extra 0.000000000000000001 here and there
2015-08-06T02:21:14Z loke: opcode: That's the nature of floating point
2015-08-06T02:21:19Z opcode: loke: yep
2015-08-06T02:21:22Z opcode: so what I'm asking is
2015-08-06T02:21:54Z opcode: whereas in ALGOL-likes it's more effective to see if two IEEE floats are "equal to within a very small amount"
2015-08-06T02:22:02Z opcode: i'm asking if this is still true in CL
2015-08-06T02:22:09Z opcode: or if the runtime is smart enough to figure itout
2015-08-06T02:22:57Z loke: opcode: It's the same in CL. The language _can't_ be "smart enough" to figure it out since the value of "very small" (ε) depends on context
2015-08-06T02:23:15Z opcode: all right that's what I wanted to know
2015-08-06T02:23:29Z opcode: the lack of distinct types is still throwing me off a little
2015-08-06T02:23:30Z opcode: thanks
2015-08-06T02:23:43Z loke: opcode: What CL has, that many other languages don't, is native support for fractions. So (/ 1 3) == 1/3. Which means that (* (/ 1 3) 3) is guaranteed to be 1
2015-08-06T02:24:23Z opcode: k
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2015-08-06T02:25:24Z loke: Of course, certain operations are specified to return floating point numbers, which means that (* (sqrt n) (sqrt n)) is not guaranteed to equal n
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2015-08-06T02:25:47Z opcode: ok, yeah I guess that's what I was asking
2015-08-06T02:26:14Z Bike: your implementation uses IEEE floats, you're going to get the same results as in python or C or whatever
2015-08-06T02:26:38Z loke: opcode: You'd have to look at the documentation for the mathematical functions you use. For example, for sqrt it says: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_sqrt_.htm
2015-08-06T02:26:45Z loke: "If number is a positive rational, it is implementation-dependent whether root is a rational or a float. If number is a negative rational, it is implementation-dependent whether root is a complex rational or a complex float."
2015-08-06T02:28:48Z opcode: so is something like (<= (- float1 float2) very-small-number) a common idiom in CL then?  or is there a more convenient way
2015-08-06T02:29:27Z loke: opcode: I presume you meant to put a call to ABS in there too.
2015-08-06T02:29:32Z opcode: yeah
2015-08-06T02:29:38Z opcode: :P
2015-08-06T02:30:01Z loke: Well yes. Or in some cases a call to RATIONALIZE
2015-08-06T02:30:27Z opcode: k
2015-08-06T02:30:36Z loke: (rationalize 0.999999999999999999999999) → 1
2015-08-06T02:32:55Z opcode: i'll take a look at that, thanks again
2015-08-06T02:33:22Z Bike: loke: 0.999999999999999999999999 => 1.0 here anyway, so
2015-08-06T02:33:34Z loke: Bike: well, yeah
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2015-08-06T02:34:07Z loke: But (rationalize (/ 3.0)) is 1/3
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2015-08-06T02:39:10Z theos: hey
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2015-08-06T02:44:46Z pjb: opcode: you should ask to some numerical algorithm specialist, he will probably advise you against (<= (- float1 float2) very-small-number).  The problem is more complex.
2015-08-06T02:55:37Z Zhivago: What 'lack of distinct types'?
2015-08-06T02:58:26Z opcode: i guess i meant static types
2015-08-06T02:58:34Z opcode is multitasking
2015-08-06T02:58:45Z opcode: pjb: i should be ok with what I've got but thx
2015-08-06T02:59:09Z pillton: opcode: It depends on what you are doing and what you require. I use (<= (- f1 f2) k) for my stuff as the result is computed from noisy inputs.
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2015-08-06T03:05:02Z pillton: opcode: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153109 contains the code to the float-equal function used in lisp-unit. The reference mentioned at the end might be a good place to find a better answer.
2015-08-06T03:05:16Z opcode: ty
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2015-08-06T03:12:47Z loke: In APL there is the ⎕CT variable that indicates the size of comparison ε.
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2015-08-06T04:01:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-06T04:08:20Z hegel: morning!
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2015-08-06T04:42:59Z beach: In HIR code (High-level Intermediate Representation) I will frequently have a case like this: After some test instruction with two successor I1, in one branch, NIL will be assigned to some variable V and in the other branch, T will be assigned to V.  Then the two branches merge into one in some instruction I2.
2015-08-06T04:43:00Z beach: A second test instruction I3 compares V to nil and branches accordingly.  I3 is dominated by I2.  Is there a known compiler optimization that will duplicate the instructions between I2 and I3 and eliminate the test I3, and if so what is the name of that optimization?
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2015-08-06T04:52:15Z akkad: what is the name of the variable for the name of the implmenetation? e.g. sbcl, ecl, ccl
2015-08-06T04:54:04Z Bike: akkad, (lisp-implementation-type)
2015-08-06T04:54:48Z akkad: thanks
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2015-08-06T04:57:15Z jasom: opcode: you need to normalize very-small-number, as the absolute value of a single ULP varies with the scale of the float
2015-08-06T04:58:48Z jasom: e.g. dividing by the sum of the two numbers works, but depending on the FPU may cause problems if they sum to zero
2015-08-06T04:59:43Z jasom: also divides are very expensive, so you probably don't want to do that for every comparison
2015-08-06T05:00:06Z jasom: I've not done anything like this in lisp, but I expect you could do an efficient approximate equality test using decode-float
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2015-08-06T05:13:49Z jasom: opcode: here's an off-the-top-of-my-head implementation using decode-float: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153119
2015-08-06T05:16:31Z jasom: opcode: note that I just wrote it and tested it with two values, so it could be completely wrong
2015-08-06T05:17:59Z jasom: but on an implementation with a fast scale-float, it should be considerably faster than pillton's version, though will allow a varience in the epsilon equal to the base of the floating point representation (i.e. 2 on nearly all lisps)
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2015-08-06T05:27:00Z pillton didn't write it. He just knew of its existence.
2015-08-06T05:27:40Z pillton: The reference is number 348 on my todo list.
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2015-08-06T05:36:49Z drmeister: Hello
2015-08-06T05:36:58Z akkad: hi dr
2015-08-06T05:37:50Z drmeister: beach: What was the suggestion?  I wish there were a better way than writing a stripped down version of Cleavir.
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2015-08-06T06:20:44Z jasom: Slightly off topic, but I just eliminated the need for a particular macro in one of my projects; is there an easy way to change all forms like (foo some-sexpr) to just some-sexpr in emacs?
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2015-08-06T06:21:19Z jasom: right now I've got (defmacro foo (x) x) which is somewhat stupid.
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2015-08-06T06:25:10Z Quadrescence: jasom, id probably do something stupid like make a keyboard macro: search for foo, find left paren, splice sexp, delete foo
2015-08-06T06:25:12Z Quadrescence: repeat
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2015-08-06T06:25:25Z Quadrescence: (find left paren isn't necessary actually)
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2015-08-06T06:26:19Z jasom: yeah, I need to learn paredit at some point
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2015-08-06T07:11:35Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: pong
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2015-08-06T07:19:52Z gargaml: Hi
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2015-08-06T07:20:19Z gargaml: I'm currently reading letoverlambda and I'm working on the defmacro/g! with sbcl
2015-08-06T07:20:39Z gargaml: the code is available here http://letoverlambda.com/lol.lisp
2015-08-06T07:21:13Z gargaml: I can't manage to make it works on sbcl (symbols start with a comma and I get a type error)
2015-08-06T07:21:42Z gargaml: but it works with clisp right away
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2015-08-06T07:22:19Z gargaml: does someone know why I get different results ?
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2015-08-06T07:26:22Z PuercoPop: gargaml: you may find the code here: https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda or fare-quasiquote of use. iirc the problem is that the code in lol is non conforming was it expects backquote to be read to cons cells.
2015-08-06T07:28:06Z PuercoPop: gargaml: try this in your repl (setf *print-pretty* nil) '`(1 ,2)
2015-08-06T07:28:11Z PuercoPop: in sbcl and in clisp
2015-08-06T07:28:33Z PuercoPop: you'll see the difference
2015-08-06T07:28:59Z PuercoPop: *was it -> as it
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2015-08-06T07:31:50Z PuercoPop: gargaml: Christopher Rhodes wrote about it. See: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/naive_vs_proper_code-walking/
2015-08-06T07:32:24Z gargaml: PuercoPop: thank you
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2015-08-06T07:40:32Z gargaml: I thought that internal representation should not interfere with the way we manipulate code, I was wrong…
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2015-08-06T07:44:34Z protist: I've run into that issue with backtick and backquote before in a code walking macro
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2015-08-06T07:45:15Z protist: made the thing work for SBCL and CLISP....but later someone suggested a way without walking, but it involved more runtime overhead
2015-08-06T07:45:23Z protist: I had it all at read time with the messy version
2015-08-06T07:45:42Z protist: but went with the non-walking way to be conformant
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2015-08-06T07:49:52Z gargaml: I'm going to forget about portability issues for now :-)
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2015-08-06T08:06:58Z PuercoPop: gargaml: as I see it it is not internal representation. You can use fare-quasiquote if you want to ensure the backquote reader macro works in a way compatible with lol
2015-08-06T08:07:32Z PuercoPop: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/frideau/fare-quasiquote
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2015-08-06T08:35:16Z gargaml: PuercoPop: thanks, I'm gonna read about this (chapter 4 will wait for a while)
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2015-08-06T11:18:50Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: when ECL evaluates forms from the command line, the default package is common-lisp which is locked so I get interning errors
2015-08-06T11:19:00Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: please change that to common-lisp-user
2015-08-06T11:19:13Z rritoch: Hi, after you run ansi-tests is there some way to see a report of which tests fail?
2015-08-06T11:19:46Z rritoch: All I see is how many tests failed
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2015-08-06T11:21:14Z rritoch: Nevermind, I think I figured it out.
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2015-08-06T13:51:53Z oleo: hello
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2015-08-06T14:12:12Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: what do you mean by "evaluates"? if I put something as -eval argument, it is evaluated in common-lisp-user -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/153158
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2015-08-06T14:19:19Z Guthur`: does anyone know of any recent benchmarks of ABCL vs Clojure?
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2015-08-06T14:23:53Z jackdaniel: is there any test suite which more or less is equivalent for both?
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2015-08-06T14:25:29Z jackdaniel: it's hard to benchmark two different languages - you have to create equivalent set for each, and you never now how much accurate such comparison is
2015-08-06T14:25:41Z jackdaniel: s/now/know/
2015-08-06T14:25:48Z Guthur`: yeah, i'm not a fan of synthetic benchmarks
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2015-08-06T14:26:18Z Guthur`: but it's something I was curious about because someone is claiming that ABCL is terrible compared to Clojure in terms of performance
2015-08-06T14:26:42Z Guthur`: and I was hoping to find at least some figures
2015-08-06T14:26:57Z jackdaniel: abcl is slow when it loads something for first time, because it doesn't pull everything in at startup
2015-08-06T14:27:02Z jackdaniel: that impresion might came from this
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2015-08-06T14:28:30Z jackdaniel: or it's worse in terms of comparison, don't know really :)
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2015-08-06T14:32:40Z Guthur`: the claim put to me was not backed up with any sort of rigour
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2015-08-06T14:40:07Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: was this changed recently ? with 13.5.1 I used to get such errors in TravisCI
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2015-08-06T14:59:08Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: just checked with 15.2.21 and problem is abset there - I've took maintainership as bare repo with bunch of commits on otp of 13.5.1 - apparently this got fixed too
2015-08-06T14:59:12Z jackdaniel: not my doing tough
2015-08-06T14:59:32Z fe[nl]ix: ok, I'll update ECL
2015-08-06T15:00:18Z jackdaniel: take git head - new release in 3 weeks
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2015-08-06T15:01:07Z jackdaniel: s/abset/absent/
2015-08-06T15:01:57Z hitecnologys: Are there any benchmarks of binary-types available?
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2015-08-06T18:25:49Z gendl: Hi, how would one sort a list like this:
2015-08-06T18:26:47Z gendl: ((1 2) ((1 2) 3) ((1 2) 3 4)  (1 2 3))
2015-08-06T18:27:02Z gendl: to sort it first by simple list-length, then by length of the first element?
2015-08-06T18:27:07Z gendl: so the result should be:
2015-08-06T18:27:40Z gendl: ((1 2) ((1 2) 3) (1 2 3) ((1 2) 3 4))
2015-08-06T18:27:57Z blt: Hello, I am attempting to test whether a set of integers are in a sequence according to a step (defaulting to 1). I am unhappy with my algorithm and wonder if there is a better way: https://www.refheap.com/107789
2015-08-06T18:28:17Z dlowe: gendl: that sounds like a classroom assignments
2015-08-06T18:28:41Z gendl: dlowe: nope, it's a real-world problem.
2015-08-06T18:28:58Z gendl: simplified for this example of course
2015-08-06T18:29:03Z Xach: gendl: sort by the second criteria, then stable-sort by the first, iirc.
2015-08-06T18:29:17Z Xach: gendl: i wrote a bit about doing it for arbitrary sets of keys and predicates a while ago...
2015-08-06T18:29:20Z gendl: not possible with a single call to sort?
2015-08-06T18:29:24Z Xach: no
2015-08-06T18:29:31Z shka: gendl: use sort
2015-08-06T18:29:38Z shka: not?
2015-08-06T18:29:41Z shka: hmm
2015-08-06T18:30:04Z shka: gendl: i guess Xach is right
2015-08-06T18:30:12Z gendl: Xach: stable-sort on the second pass through sounds like the ticket, thanks!
2015-08-06T18:30:41Z rme: Yes, that's an idiom I have also used before.
2015-08-06T18:31:29Z Xach: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/BkVqUXtcYi0/E83M9vzLTaEJ has the thing i wrote about it a while ago
2015-08-06T18:33:14Z dlowe: it's certainly possible with a single call to sort
2015-08-06T18:34:16Z dlowe: when the elements would have equal rank by the first criteria, sort by the second criteria
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2015-08-06T18:35:25Z shka: dlowe: that's what i was thinking, but Xach says no
2015-08-06T18:35:34Z shka: and i kinda trust him
2015-08-06T18:35:42Z shka: and should go to bed ;-)
2015-08-06T18:37:07Z dlowe: Xach also just posted a counter example :p
2015-08-06T18:37:24Z Xach: I was wrong. And my 8 year old post has an example of constructing a predicate to pass to a single call to sort.
2015-08-06T18:37:26Z dlowe: which is a neat bit of functional pizazz
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2015-08-06T18:37:54Z Xach: there's also a 4 year old post by WJ on how to do it in some Scheme
2015-08-06T18:37:58Z dlowe: I will almost certainly be adding its distinctiveness to my own
2015-08-06T18:38:32Z shka: oh well
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2015-08-06T18:38:47Z jackdaniel: gendl: (sort  something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/153169 ?
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2015-08-06T18:38:54Z Xach: But, it's also easy when it's two levels to do two sorts.
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2015-08-06T18:40:08Z jackdaniel: it's ineffective, because length of each list is counted multiple times tough
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2015-08-06T18:45:27Z dlowe: If we care depends heavily on the length of the list
2015-08-06T18:46:08Z jackdaniel: yes, one could memoize results tough
2015-08-06T18:46:42Z dlowe: one could, yes.
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2015-08-06T18:48:46Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153169#1
2015-08-06T18:51:34Z jackdaniel: I overuse word tough :(
2015-08-06T18:51:49Z Oladon: I think you mean "though" :)
2015-08-06T18:52:18Z jackdaniel: Oladon: yes, I overuse misused word, even worse
2015-08-06T18:52:24Z jackdaniel: thanks for correcting me :)
2015-08-06T18:52:38Z Oladon: No worries. Your bill is in the mail. ;)
2015-08-06T18:52:47Z jackdaniel: ^_^
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2015-08-06T19:02:26Z pjb: gendl: by writing a comparison function that compare exactly what you said.
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2015-08-06T19:03:35Z pjb: (sort your-list (lambda (a b) (let ((la (length a)) (lb (length b))) (cond ((< la lb) t) ((> la lb) nil) (t (let ((lfa (length (first a))) (lfb (length (first b)))) (< lfa lfb)))))))
2015-08-06T19:04:30Z blt: i would like to come up with a fn that takes a list like: '(1 2 3 4) and changes it to '((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)). i am not sure where to start and pretty new to CL
2015-08-06T19:04:50Z Xach: blt: (mapcar #'list list (cdr list))
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2015-08-06T19:06:04Z blt: Xach: impressive
2015-08-06T19:06:50Z blt: Xach: it would have taken me a long time to figure that out
2015-08-06T19:07:10Z Xach: i have lots of practice
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2015-08-06T19:09:13Z pjb: (maplist (lambda (list) (subseq list 0 (min (length list) 2))) '(1 2 3 4)) #| --> ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4)) |#
2015-08-06T19:09:21Z pjb: but mapcar is better in this case.
2015-08-06T19:10:08Z pjb: I find maplist and mapcon underutilized.
2015-08-06T19:10:16Z blt: thanks pjb
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2015-08-06T19:13:26Z jackdaniel: hmm, how do you imagine result of (mapcon #'identity '(1 2 3)) ; ?
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2015-08-06T19:15:24Z Bike: undefined?
2015-08-06T19:15:54Z jackdaniel: yeah, sounds accurate
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2015-08-06T19:40:21Z blt: jackdaniel: when i run that, it never
2015-08-06T19:40:28Z blt: terminates
2015-08-06T19:40:49Z jackdaniel: well, undefined behavior means, that it might even blow your processor :p
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2015-08-06T20:03:22Z pjb: But (mapcon #'list '(1 2 3)) #| --> ((1 . #1=(2 . #2=(3))) #1# #2#) |#  could be useful.
2015-08-06T20:03:54Z pjb: IIRC I've used something like that once.
2015-08-06T20:04:30Z pjb: This kind of things is useful when you want to write a function that takes some code and return code that would generate that code argument.
2015-08-06T20:04:56Z pjb: Or for example, if you want to see how a function such as nreverse works.
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2015-08-06T20:16:31Z blt: pjb, Xach: I wrote a recursive fn to pair items in a list: https://www.refheap.com/107828
2015-08-06T20:17:48Z blt: mapcar still is the way to go tho
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2015-08-06T20:43:18Z akkad: ASau: hi
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2015-08-06T21:01:04Z juniour: hi lispers!
2015-08-06T21:03:31Z juniour: does anybody knows under what license HTML-TEMPLATE of Edi Weitz is distributed? I've downloaded html-template.tar.gz, but there is no LICENSE nor COPYING
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2015-08-06T21:16:42Z jasom: juniour: he usually puts it in a comment at the top of each .lisp file
2015-08-06T21:17:23Z dwchandler: juniour: according to http://weitz.de/html-template/ it is BSD license. also check at the top of source files for license
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2015-08-06T21:17:55Z dwchandler: *like jasom says ;-)
2015-08-06T21:18:21Z jasom: yeah, looks like 2-clause BSD on head of template.lisp
2015-08-06T21:19:06Z jasom: There is something sad that a certain portion of my brain is dedicated to pattern-matching OSS licenses from their text
2015-08-06T21:19:49Z dwchandler: "fits on part of one screen" -> bsd/mit/isc
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2015-08-06T21:21:36Z jasom: does minion have a last-seen feature?
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2015-08-06T21:25:29Z Xof: no, but it has a sarcastic reply if you ask it
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2015-08-06T21:32:30Z Xach: I wrote a last-seen feature about 10 years ago that was never applied
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2015-08-06T21:35:42Z juniour: yeah, indeed, thanks guys
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2015-08-06T21:39:23Z pjb: blt: you've got a bug.
2015-08-06T21:39:54Z pjb: if (car (cdr lst)) is not correct. if your list contains nil, it will fail the test.
2015-08-06T21:40:11Z juniour: btw, I'm not lawyer, but I'm confused a bit. CCL is distributed under LLGPL which AFAIK requires the derived software use LLGPL also. there are CFFI, which uses the CCL API. so, CFFI (and software using it) should also be LLGPL'd?
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2015-08-06T21:41:35Z fe[nl]ix: juniour: no
2015-08-06T21:42:14Z pjb: (pair '(1 2 nil 4 5 6)) #| --> ((1 2) (nil 4) (4 5) (5 6)) |#  missing (2 nil).
2015-08-06T21:42:38Z pjb: juniour: the key word is derived.
2015-08-06T21:42:45Z pjb: Is your software, a derived work of ccl?
2015-08-06T21:43:56Z pjb: If your software can run on other CL implementations, then it cannot be considered a derived work of any of those implementations. Therefore you are free to distribute _your software_, under any license.
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2015-08-06T21:45:14Z pjb: Now, on the other hand, if I write an application using ccl specific features directly (namely, anything that's in the ccl package), then it may be that indeed, my application is only a derived work of ccl, and therefore has to be distributed according to this license.
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2015-08-06T21:45:54Z juniour: pjb: you last sentese is exactly what I meant
2015-08-06T21:46:11Z pjb: do you use the ccl package, or write non-conforming code?
2015-08-06T21:46:21Z pjb: That's the reason why it's so important to write conforming code.
2015-08-06T21:46:33Z pjb: Conforming code is indepedent from the implementation.
2015-08-06T21:46:36Z juniour: pjb: is CFFI using specific CCL features -- defcallback ?
2015-08-06T21:46:54Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-06T21:47:09Z juniour: pjb: so, it's derived work of CCL?
2015-08-06T21:47:09Z pjb: So there's the question of the license of CFFI.
2015-08-06T21:47:20Z pjb: Probably. And of each of the other implementations it supports.
2015-08-06T21:47:34Z pjb: Therefore the licensing of CFFI must be quite a mess.
2015-08-06T21:48:26Z pjb: http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html
2015-08-06T21:49:20Z pjb: But the LGPL and LLGPL are not as "contaminating" as the GPL.
2015-08-06T21:49:34Z juniour: pjb: does it means that CFFI should be avoided? (Due to moot license legitimacy.)
2015-08-06T21:49:44Z juniour: pjb: yes, I've read the preamble
2015-08-06T21:49:47Z pjb: http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/75/146
2015-08-06T21:50:03Z juniour: pjb: yes, I've read it too :)
2015-08-06T21:50:30Z juniour: pjb: and now I'm totaly confused :)
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2015-08-06T21:50:52Z pjb: I've not read it yet, I'll have to.
2015-08-06T21:50:55Z pjb: This is confusing.
2015-08-06T21:52:14Z pjb: The idea a-priori is that one can use portability libraries to avoid implementation dependency.  But license-wise that would require that the portability library be distributed under a liberal license. If an implementation impose a stronger license to the portatibility library, that may go up to the application.
2015-08-06T21:52:41Z pjb: _However_, legally, in front of a judge, the only thing that matter, is whether the bundle that you distribute IS or IS NOT a DERIVED WORK.
2015-08-06T21:53:04Z pjb: Is my hangma game a derived work of a Common Lisp implementation.
2015-08-06T21:53:08Z pjb: hangman.
2015-08-06T21:53:35Z pjb: I cannot imagine even the worst judge determining that it is, since it is functionally entirely different a beast from ccl.
2015-08-06T21:53:51Z blt: pjb: thanks for the insight
2015-08-06T21:54:13Z pjb: ON THE OTHER HAND, the Patchwork musical application, which uses ccl listener, _could_ be considered at least partially a derived work. (Happily, it's under GPL3).
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2015-08-06T21:54:39Z juniour: ohhh
2015-08-06T21:54:43Z juniour: licenses suck
2015-08-06T21:54:50Z juniour: I'm look to CCL because this code it beat SBCL by a factor 2: (loop for i fixnum from 1 to 1000000000 sum i) :)
2015-08-06T21:55:22Z pjb: juniour: notably, you cannot with Hangman, as "a normal user", change the code of the program, save an image, and obtain an executable for a different program. But you could do that with Patchwork.
2015-08-06T21:55:27Z dwchandler: infection licenses suck for compilers/interpreters, for sure
2015-08-06T21:55:55Z pjb: juniour: basically, what we all want, is to have access to the sources, be able to read it, modify it, and redistribute software without modifications, small or big.
2015-08-06T21:56:27Z pjb: juniour: the mess comes from 1- applying copyright law designed for books, 2- corporations who distribute software without the sources and without letting you modify and redistribute it.
2015-08-06T21:56:37Z juniour: dwchandler: at least if the compiler/runtime must be included in software (as in Lisp).
2015-08-06T21:56:43Z blt: pjb: looks like the test should be (if (cdr lst)) instead of (if (car (cdr lst)))
2015-08-06T21:56:44Z pjb: the GPL and redirived license try to apply 1- against 2-.
2015-08-06T21:56:55Z pjb: blt: right.
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2015-08-06T21:57:16Z juniour: pjb: 3- from FSF
2015-08-06T21:57:24Z pjb: Irrelevant.
2015-08-06T21:57:48Z juniour: i think it's a corporation also
2015-08-06T21:57:58Z pjb: juniour: without the FSF, and seemingly implying without the GPL, you would be disarmed in front of 2-.
2015-08-06T21:58:03Z juniour: i'm no so stupid to believe in FREEDOM
2015-08-06T21:58:04Z pjb: I mean commercial corporations.
2015-08-06T21:59:54Z juniour: pjb: I don't like licenses at all
2015-08-06T22:00:00Z pjb: Nobody does.
2015-08-06T22:00:06Z juniour: this is a BS
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2015-08-06T22:00:17Z juniour: vanity
2015-08-06T22:00:23Z pjb: Remember all this mess is essentially originated from 2- corporations who distribute software without the sources and without letting you modify and redistribute it.
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2015-08-06T22:00:59Z pjb: Remove 2- from the law, and you can delete all the copyrights.
2015-08-06T22:01:02Z juniour: pjb: yeah, and LispWorks and Allegro in this list
2015-08-06T22:01:07Z pjb: (delete patents by the same stroke).
2015-08-06T22:01:22Z pjb: They're probably good implementations, but nobody uses them here.
2015-08-06T22:01:33Z pjb: because we don't have the sources.
2015-08-06T22:01:38Z juniour: pjb: right
2015-08-06T22:02:03Z juniour: pjb: it seems to me that only right choise is SBCL
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2015-08-06T22:02:43Z juniour: pjb: or CMUCL (but it does not even compiled without pain at least for me)
2015-08-06T22:02:49Z pjb: no the right choice is to distribute your software under the AGPL3,
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2015-08-06T22:03:35Z juniour: pjb: no, i'm no so stupid to unable write my own "license"
2015-08-06T22:03:38Z pjb: or to the limit, to GPL3.
2015-08-06T22:03:57Z juniour: pjb: I like zlib's and PostgreSQL's license
2015-08-06T22:04:15Z juniour: pjb: they are clear
2015-08-06T22:04:19Z pjb: Well, you can write your own license, but it makes it more difficult for people to determine whether your software will be usable by them.
2015-08-06T22:04:38Z juniour: pjb: GPL suck because I don't understand it (and don't even want)
2015-08-06T22:04:42Z pjb: At least, for the big licenses, they're known and their consequences are approximately determined.
2015-08-06T22:05:19Z pjb: juniour: check: https://tldrlegal.com/licenses/browse
2015-08-06T22:05:38Z juniour: pjb: there is also http://unlicense.org/
2015-08-06T22:05:42Z pjb: it tries to present in a simplified form the can/cannot/must of each licenses.
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2015-08-06T22:05:54Z pjb: https://tldrlegal.com/license/unlicense
2015-08-06T22:06:06Z pjb: cannot include copyright, cannot be held liable.
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2015-08-06T22:07:01Z pjb: juniour: basically, this license takes a neutral stand in the war for freedom of users of software.
2015-08-06T22:07:09Z juniour: pjb: PostgreSQL or zlib then
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2015-08-06T22:07:22Z pjb: ie. a corporation can take unlicensed software, and include it in their products and they can distribute it without providing the sources.
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2015-08-06T22:08:46Z juniour: pjb: but not GPL because I dont want to infect my software by delirium
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2015-08-06T22:09:34Z pjb: says the fool outside the walls…
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2015-08-06T22:10:07Z dwchandler: now, now, you two. no need for that
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2015-08-06T22:10:36Z foom: Don't use postgresql or zlib; if you want a permissive license, choose a widely-used one, like the MIT license.
2015-08-06T22:10:46Z pjb: No, it's just a technical statement, nothing emotional.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0442207/
2015-08-06T22:10:58Z dwchandler: if you believe in what GPL offers then it's the right license. Otherwise perhaps a BSD license is better. It's *YOUR* choice
2015-08-06T22:11:03Z pjb: or http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0272152/
2015-08-06T22:11:39Z juniour: foom: MIT is also good. But why not postgresql or zlib?
2015-08-06T22:11:43Z pjb: and you can always NOT distribute your derived works.
2015-08-06T22:11:55Z foom: juniour: just because they're less-used, and there's no reason to use them.
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2015-08-06T22:12:08Z foom: Choose a widely used license, it's easier for everyone that way...
2015-08-06T22:12:31Z foom: Everyone will know what it means without needing to look it up.
2015-08-06T22:12:40Z dwchandler: bsd 2 clause / mit / isc are essentially the same license
2015-08-06T22:12:46Z juniour: foom: hmm, AFAIK, Postmodern uses zlib license
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2015-08-06T22:13:03Z juniour: foom: who don't know Postmodern or PostgreSQL ? :)
2015-08-06T22:13:03Z foom: juniour: I have no idea. Nevertheless...
2015-08-06T22:13:14Z foom: I know the software, I don't know what their license says
2015-08-06T22:13:45Z foom: "The postgresql license" doesn't have the same widespread understanding as "the mit license" or "the bsd license"
2015-08-06T22:13:57Z juniour: foom: it is in vain. License is very important
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2015-08-06T22:14:13Z foom: Yes, it is very important. So use one that everyone understands.
2015-08-06T22:14:18Z juniour: foom: agree with that
2015-08-06T22:14:50Z juniour: foom: "I don't know what their license says" -- it's bad :)
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2015-08-06T22:15:07Z dwchandler: zlib has a clause about plainly marking altered versions / not misrepresenting. otherwise it's a bsd license
2015-08-06T22:15:24Z dwchandler: postres seems basically bsd
2015-08-06T22:15:28Z juniour: foom: the license is a first thing that everyone must read before using
2015-08-06T22:16:15Z foom: juniour: Okay, I'm glad you've read and memorized all the licenses for all the software installed on your machine.
2015-08-06T22:16:47Z juniour: foom: :)
2015-08-06T22:17:13Z juniour: foom: I mean the software used upon development
2015-08-06T22:17:24Z juniour: foom: so called "libraries"
2015-08-06T22:17:55Z juniour: foom: or in case of Lisp -- implementations
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2015-08-06T22:30:20Z juniour: foom: btw, did you even read Hunchentoot's license? :)
2015-08-06T22:30:40Z juniour: s/even/ever
2015-08-06T22:32:06Z newcup: juniour: so you're writing something you don't want to release under GPL?
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2015-08-06T22:33:11Z newcup: juniour: even in that case, you can contact the authors of GPL libs/compilers you use, and negotiate other licensing terms
2015-08-06T22:33:18Z foom: juniour: nope, didn't. I did read the 'LLGPL', though, and get annoyed about it.
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2015-08-06T22:34:35Z juniour: foom: oops, I was confused by doc/LICENSE.txt in Hunchentoot's dir... argh.. this is a license for logo, rather than Hunchentoot :)
2015-08-06T22:34:44Z juniour: foom: LLGPL is moot
2015-08-06T22:35:04Z juniour: newcup: I don't understand GPL
2015-08-06T22:35:04Z dwchandler: hunchentoot is BSD licenses
2015-08-06T22:35:42Z juniour: newcup: how can I use license which I don't even understand?
2015-08-06T22:36:13Z juniour: dwchandler: yes, this is good
2015-08-06T22:36:53Z foom: "moot"? what do you mean about that?
2015-08-06T22:37:18Z newcup: juniour: you can always at least try to negotiate licensing terms which suit you better
2015-08-06T22:37:32Z juniour: newcup: GPLs is overcompicated -- it's full of tech terms like "library", "link", "static", "shared" and other utter crap
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2015-08-06T22:37:54Z dwchandler: newcup: it doesn't hurt to ask, anyway
2015-08-06T22:38:17Z newcup: juniour: legalese often is complicated. that's why lawyers are so despised and rich :)
2015-08-06T22:38:27Z dwchandler: many *GPL people will not negotiate, for the same reason they picked GPL to begin with
2015-08-06T22:38:34Z juniour: newcup: it seems to me that GPL is for C software indeed
2015-08-06T22:38:35Z dwchandler: but sometimes...
2015-08-06T22:38:43Z foom: It is supposedly a 'clarification' of the LGPL for lisp code, but it's not; it's a unique license, which has additional restrictions over what LGPL has.
2015-08-06T22:39:32Z foom: IMO, LGPL itself, without "clarifications", is fine for a lisp program.
2015-08-06T22:39:57Z newcup: in this particular case, I'm sure clozure associates might negotiate
2015-08-06T22:40:06Z juniour: foom: I don't understand LLGPL "preamble". do you?'
2015-08-06T22:40:08Z dwchandler: yeah, could be
2015-08-06T22:40:37Z newcup: s/might/would/
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2015-08-06T22:40:52Z foom: juniour: Maybe? I understand it enough to see that it's not compatible with the GPL or LGPL licenses.
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2015-08-06T22:41:46Z juniour: newcup: do you really think that Clozure Associates can provide "personal" license or what?
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2015-08-06T22:42:02Z dwchandler: But I think you're fairly safe writing something that *runs* on an implementation. Distributing applications might get trickier
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2015-08-06T22:43:52Z juniour: dwchandler: my initial question was about CFFI. It using CCL's defcallback. Does it means that it should be distributed under LLGPL?
2015-08-06T22:43:53Z dwchandler: I.e., "Here's my github repo of stuff written to CCL-spefici stuff" can be licenses however. "Here's a binary containing CCL goodies" may be GPL'd
2015-08-06T22:44:36Z newcup: juniour: Sure, I guess it's just a matter of money. so if you intend to cash in with the software you make, it is a viable option
2015-08-06T22:44:57Z juniour: newcup: money money money
2015-08-06T22:45:08Z juniour: newcup: wtf
2015-08-06T22:45:28Z juniour: it's all about money
2015-08-06T22:45:44Z newcup: juniour: GPL isn't :)
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2015-08-06T22:48:31Z juniour: newcup: https://my.fsf.org/donate/
2015-08-06T22:48:40Z juniour: newcup: you're welcome :)
2015-08-06T22:51:01Z juniour: so, it's better to write own software
2015-08-06T22:51:33Z juniour: good night :)
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2015-08-06T23:22:22Z blt: pjb, Xach: yet another way to create pairs based on loops: https://www.refheap.com/107831
2015-08-06T23:23:40Z pjb: No, with look you could do: (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) collect (list a b)) #| --> ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5) (5 nil)) |#  if you don't mind the last nil.
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2015-08-06T23:24:19Z pjb: or: (loop for (a . b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) when b collect (list a (car b))) #| --> ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5)) |#  if you do.
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2015-08-06T23:26:57Z blt: pjb: oh, that's nice
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2015-08-06T23:29:02Z blt: very nice. thanks pjb!
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2015-08-06T23:49:30Z pjb: So, in the terms of the LLGPL, in my understanding, CFFI is not a derived work of ccl.  CFFI just uses ccl.
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2015-08-07T02:00:26Z Xach: Hmm, is there an off-the-shelf http date to universal time function?
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2015-08-07T02:01:20Z Xach: I am falling short trying to use abnf + the rfc bnf-esque to parse it
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2015-08-07T02:01:37Z Oladon: I thought localtime had something, but now I'm not so sure
2015-08-07T02:01:42Z Bike: can't you do that with local-time? it has rfc 1123
2015-08-07T02:02:02Z Oladon: Yeah, there it is
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2015-08-07T02:02:29Z Oladon: Though I don't think it handles RFC 850
2015-08-07T02:03:01Z Oladon: (or 1036)
2015-08-07T02:03:32Z Xach: How does it work for local-time?
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2015-08-07T02:04:33Z Oladon: (timestamp-to-universal (parse-timestring http-date))
2015-08-07T02:04:38Z Xach: (local-time:parse-timestring "Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:53:16 GMT") signals an error for me.
2015-08-07T02:05:35Z Bike: maybe it's only output...
2015-08-07T02:05:46Z Oladon: Hmm
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2015-08-07T02:06:55Z Oladon: Yeah, it looks like it's trying to parse it as rfc3339
2015-08-07T02:07:52Z Oladon: oh
2015-08-07T02:08:06Z Oladon: drakma has parse-cookie-date
2015-08-07T02:09:36Z Oladon: (drakma:parse-cookie-date "Sun, 06 Nov 1994 08:49:37 GMT") --> 2993100577
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2015-08-07T02:15:18Z Xach: thanks. i'll give that a go.
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2015-08-07T02:21:02Z Xach is making a podcast for a very http-illiterate friend with a radio program
2015-08-07T02:21:12Z Oladon: Heh, nice :)
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2015-08-07T02:45:35Z quazimodo: what's the advantage of xml over sexpressions?
2015-08-07T02:46:05Z quazimodo: occurs to me that all the xmls of the world could have been simpler sexpressions
2015-08-07T02:46:40Z quazimodo googles, someone certainly must have written a paper on this a billion years ago
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2015-08-07T03:37:46Z White_Flame: quazimodo: to my best guess, marketing
2015-08-07T03:38:15Z White_Flame: gotta recycle an old idea in a worse way, so you have something to sell books/training/speaking/consulting engagements
2015-08-07T03:39:13Z White_Flame: the quality of the rehash doesn't matter, the only reward is that you can milk it
2015-08-07T03:40:26Z White_Flame: also besides s-expressions, JSON is a better XML than XML will ever be
2015-08-07T03:40:48Z housel: If you are writing mostly-textual mixed content, especially by hand, either S-expressions or JSON would be cumbersome (span "This is " (emph "really") " annoying")
2015-08-07T03:41:20Z White_Flame: XML isn't a markup language
2015-08-07T03:41:38Z White_Flame: content nodes are its primary structure
2015-08-07T03:42:11Z housel: Not for XHTML or TEI or the like
2015-08-07T03:42:16Z White_Flame: but the flip side of that is that XML's only content type is text strings.  No actual numbers, binary data, etc
2015-08-07T03:42:20Z White_Flame: housel: correct
2015-08-07T03:42:26Z Zhivago: Why does that make XML not a markup language?
2015-08-07T03:42:55Z White_Flame: Do you take existing text and add markup to it, or do you create a XML structure and add text into it?
2015-08-07T03:43:13Z Zhivago: What I do is of no relevance.
2015-08-07T03:43:26Z White_Flame: The format exists to contain data, not to markup data
2015-08-07T03:43:29Z Zhivago: However, removing the XML from an XML document produces a plain text document.
2015-08-07T03:43:53Z Zhivago: If you're using XML for other purposes, then you're doing it wrong, and should probably use a non-markup language like JSON.
2015-08-07T03:44:01Z White_Flame: Sure, the same is true of a sqlite database that holds strings
2015-08-07T03:44:14Z Zhivago: This is what markup language means.
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2015-08-07T03:44:30Z Zhivago: If your complaing is that XML is frequently abused, on the other hand ...
2015-08-07T03:45:53Z White_Flame: In cases where XML is not "abused", it still does not appear to be anywhere near an easy, reasonably implemented, or less-ambiguous solution
2015-08-07T03:46:22Z Zhivago: All irrelevant to it being a markup language. :)
2015-08-07T03:47:37Z White_Flame: Can you give an example of XML being used as markup?  Not HTML etc, but plain XML
2015-08-07T03:47:59Z White_Flame: because the vast majority of uses I've seen is as a data container, not as document annotation/description/markup
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2015-08-07T03:48:12Z housel: I see the Text Encoding Initiative as the paradigmatic use
2015-08-07T03:48:58Z White_Flame: sure, that's explicitly markup, I'll give it that
2015-08-07T03:49:13Z White_Flame: as in, it takes existing content and annotates its sections
2015-08-07T03:49:41Z housel: (it doesn't have to be existing content; I have authored documents from scratch in TEI)
2015-08-07T03:50:51Z White_Flame: Paragraphs, sentences, etc already exist.  I guess I could say "existing textual structure" as a clearer intent
2015-08-07T03:52:04Z White_Flame: as opposed to where a tree of data nodes dictates the structure, and independent content is slotted into those nodes
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2015-08-07T04:28:44Z quazimodo: White_Flame: I like Json
2015-08-07T04:28:53Z quazimodo: it's clear and concise, easy to parse etc
2015-08-07T04:29:10Z White_Flame: yep, I think it's decent as well
2015-08-07T04:29:30Z Zhivago: The main defect of json is the lack of an ordering upon object fields.
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2015-08-07T04:30:04Z quazimodo: Zhivago: is that in the standard, objects arent ordered so don't rely on it?
2015-08-07T04:30:26Z Zhivago: Object members are not ordered, and yes -- it is in the standard.
2015-08-07T04:30:28Z quazimodo: it's behaved very 'ordered' to me so far
2015-08-07T04:30:53Z quazimodo: but yeah, if it's not guaranteed then it must have been my particular engine
2015-08-07T04:31:06Z Zhivago: So canonicalization of json objects is somewhat awkward.
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2015-08-07T04:31:24Z Zhivago: But other than that, it's a highly pragmatic representation.
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2015-08-07T06:17:50Z H4ns: w
2015-08-07T06:19:19Z jackdaniel: good morning :)
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2015-08-07T06:22:14Z hegel: morning
2015-08-07T06:22:22Z H4ns: oops, good morning!
2015-08-07T06:24:26Z jackdaniel: semantically, "`(,@form)" is equivalent to "form", right?
2015-08-07T06:25:22Z H4ns: if you ignore sharing, then yes
2015-08-07T06:25:42Z H4ns: (eq `(,@form) form) => NIL
2015-08-07T06:26:20Z jackdaniel: sharing?
2015-08-07T06:26:36Z H4ns: sharing of structure.
2015-08-07T06:26:40Z jackdaniel: oh, ok
2015-08-07T06:26:41Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-08-07T06:28:56Z H4ns: interesting, only that i was wrong
2015-08-07T06:29:49Z H4ns: i.e. it seems although i expected NIL as the result above, both clozure cl and sbcl return T instead.
2015-08-07T06:30:24Z jackdaniel: it depends what you put as form
2015-08-07T06:31:10Z jackdaniel: if you put in `(,@form) as form something, what evaluates to object eq to form, then it's eq
2015-08-07T06:31:40Z jackdaniel: compare `(,@:a) and `(,@(list))
2015-08-07T06:31:51Z H4ns: i'm not sure if i follow, but i'm glad that it was only my own incompetent examples that prove me wrong :)
2015-08-07T06:32:08Z jackdaniel: compare `(,@:a) and `(,@(list 1)) °
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2015-08-07T06:34:58Z H4ns: it is pretty obvious that the return value of a function call that returns a fresh list cannot be eq to the return value of another invocation.  i had somehow expected that `() would always create a new list head, but it seems that it does not.  i have shied away from using quasiquotation in non-macro situations because of that behavior, intuitively.  probably rightfully so.
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2015-08-07T06:39:51Z jackdaniel: even using same list in multiple quasiquote invocatin yields eq -- (defmacro xxx () `'(,@'(1 2 3))) ; (eq (xxx) (xxx)
2015-08-07T06:39:57Z jackdaniel: ) ; -> T
2015-08-07T06:41:07Z H4ns: what's it with the macro?  and note that i wrote "function that returns a fresh list", so '(1 2 3) does not qualify.
2015-08-07T06:41:13Z H4ns: try (list 1 2 3) instead
2015-08-07T06:42:30Z jackdaniel: yeah, I'm just experimenting, not sure what do you mean by "share structure"
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2015-08-07T06:43:32Z Bike: like '((1 . #1=(2 3)) #1#). cdar eq cadr.
2015-08-07T06:43:47Z H4ns: hah! that should make it crystal clear! :)
2015-08-07T06:43:59Z Bike: :/
2015-08-07T06:44:13Z Bike: the same cons cell shows up in more than one place, basically.
2015-08-07T06:44:16Z H4ns: jackdaniel: do you understand eq vs. eql vs. equal yet?
2015-08-07T06:44:44Z Bike: if you have (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) then the two sublists can be "different", i.e. not eq, even though they're equal.
2015-08-07T06:45:01Z Bike: but you could also have like (let ((x (list 1 2))) (list x x)), then the sublists have to be eq, since it's the same list.
2015-08-07T06:45:18Z Bike: not "can be", rather "always are"
2015-08-07T06:45:35Z H4ns: jackdaniel: maybe read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2015-08-07T06:46:05Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I do understand eq eql and equal (even equalp!), just don't know how that impacts difference between form and `(,@form) …\
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2015-08-07T06:47:24Z jackdaniel: if both evaluate to something eq, then they are eq, if not - they don't, so it's unrelated here (unless I really misunderstood what you mean)
2015-08-07T06:47:42Z H4ns: jackdaniel: my claim was that (eql form `(,@form)) would be NIL where it is T - so `(,@form) seems to be an actual no-op, and not be "semantically equivalent"
2015-08-07T06:48:38Z jackdaniel: eql may or may not be eq, eql and even equal, depends what form is, still no see relation to these predicates
2015-08-07T06:49:02Z jackdaniel: s/^eql/result/
2015-08-07T06:49:04Z H4ns: jackdaniel: ok, then don't.  ignore me.  i thought it would be simple.
2015-08-07T06:49:21Z Bike: the main thing with literal data is that the compiler's allowed to "coalesce" data, which means things that would not be eq naively are in fact eq in the code.
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2015-08-07T06:51:27Z jackdaniel: H4ns: no need to get offended - I just don't get it
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2015-08-07T06:53:03Z jasom: jackdaniel: any two things that are eq are always eql
2015-08-07T06:53:35Z jackdaniel: yes, and every two eql things are always equal, and two equal things are always equalp
2015-08-07T06:53:50Z White_Flame: if two "by reference" objects are eq, it usually means 2 pointers pointing to the same actual item in memory
2015-08-07T06:54:48Z White_Flame: so (list x x) means, the same actual boxed/pointed-to object is referenced twice in a list
2015-08-07T06:55:15Z White_Flame: that's "sharing structure", especially when those items are further conses
2015-08-07T06:55:32Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i'm not offended, i just lack the chops to explain this properly.
2015-08-07T06:55:52Z White_Flame: when you have literals from your source code like '(1 2 3), the compiler is generally free to reuse one instance of that object multiple times
2015-08-07T06:55:57Z jasom: H4ns: it is *required* to be eq
2015-08-07T06:56:15Z jasom: (eq `(,@form) form) must always be true
2015-08-07T06:56:20Z jasom: since it's equivalent to
2015-08-07T06:56:24Z jasom: (append form)
2015-08-07T06:56:38Z H4ns: jasom: ah, nice.  thanks!
2015-08-07T06:56:52Z jasom: and append always shares structure with the last argument
2015-08-07T06:57:06Z White_Flame: wait, do you mean "value" or "form"
2015-08-07T06:57:13Z jasom: value
2015-08-07T06:57:19Z White_Flame: ah, ok
2015-08-07T06:57:19Z jackdaniel: from original question - form
2015-08-07T06:57:27Z jackdaniel: so might be function call
2015-08-07T06:57:29Z jasom: right
2015-08-07T06:57:34Z White_Flame: right, a form is a source code expression
2015-08-07T06:58:06Z jackdaniel: maybe that's where from misunderstanding originated…
2015-08-07T06:58:09Z White_Flame: technically, lisp objects that have not been evaluated yet, etc
2015-08-07T06:58:31Z H4ns: (let ((x '(2 3))) (eq (cdr `(1 ,@x)) (cdr `(2 ,@x)))) => T
2015-08-07T06:58:49Z jasom: but `(,@form) will result in a value indistinguishable to (append form) which in turn is the same as just form
2015-08-07T06:58:57Z White_Flame: whereas in "form" form, (eq `(,@(list 1 2 3)) (list 1 2 3)) ...
2015-08-07T06:59:12Z jasom: White_Flame: right that one will always be nil
2015-08-07T06:59:28Z jackdaniel: jasom: hence my question if it's semantically equivalent, so one could use form or `(,@form) in code expecting it will behave exactly the same
2015-08-07T06:59:38Z jasom: jackdaniel: yes
2015-08-07T06:59:59Z Bike: are you actually using that in code?
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2015-08-07T07:00:43Z jackdaniel: Bike: no, I've used `(,@form) and it's now simplified as form
2015-08-07T07:00:53Z Bike: oh ok.
2015-08-07T07:01:05Z jackdaniel: many iterations of code transition
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2015-08-07T07:01:47Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you should not use the term "semantically equivalent" really
2015-08-07T07:02:10Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you can mean anything between EQ and EQUALP by that expression.
2015-08-07T07:02:32Z jackdaniel: semantically equivalent = means the same
2015-08-07T07:02:47Z jackdaniel: unless I misuse word "semantic"
2015-08-07T07:02:53Z H4ns: jackdaniel: what does "mean" mean?
2015-08-07T07:02:59Z jackdaniel: that's childish
2015-08-07T07:03:05Z H4ns: no.
2015-08-07T07:03:22Z jackdaniel: I've used strict word "semantic", and not strict word to explain first word
2015-08-07T07:03:58Z H4ns: using imprecise terminology to describe something in a context where a well-defined vocabulary exists is asking for confusion.
2015-08-07T07:04:31Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty convince, that saying "semantically equivalent" is precise terminology
2015-08-07T07:04:51Z jackdaniel: s/convince/convinced/
2015-08-07T07:04:53Z H4ns: i'm done.
2015-08-07T07:04:55Z jasom: H4ns: in this context, "semantically equivalent" means "will result in the same behavior"
2015-08-07T07:04:56Z jasom: or more precisely, for this case, there will be no way to tell from the result whether it was generated by `(,@form) or form
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2015-08-07T07:08:44Z pjb: Formally, `(,@form) == (append form (quote nil)) ; therefore it is expected that form be copied, and it cannot not be a list.
2015-08-07T07:09:09Z pjb: So the only case when `(,@form) is eq to form, is when it's cl:nil; in other cases, you get a copy.
2015-08-07T07:09:15Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2015-08-07T07:09:38Z jasom: pjb: reread append
2015-08-07T07:09:43Z jasom: clhs append
2015-08-07T07:09:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2015-08-07T07:10:04Z jasom: the last argument to append can be any object, and the resulting value will share structure with the last argument to append
2015-08-07T07:10:19Z pjb: jasom: notice that form is NOT the last argument to APPEND, as specified by 02_df.
2015-08-07T07:10:33Z pjb:  `(,@form) == (append form (quote nil))
2015-08-07T07:11:28Z pjb: It's the `(x1 x2 x3 ... xn . atom) clause that applies, with atom = NIL.
2015-08-07T07:11:30Z jasom: pjb ah fooey, you're right because it's really `(,@form . nil)
2015-08-07T07:12:43Z jasom: pjb: but it is allowed to vary by sharing structure
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2015-08-07T07:12:53Z jasom: e.g. it could be (list* form)
2015-08-07T07:13:38Z jasom: so it's not *required* to be eq, I was wrong about that, but it is allowed to be.
2015-08-07T07:13:49Z jasom: thanks for the correction pjb
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2015-08-07T07:14:02Z pjb: jasom: or concatenate or anything, as long as a copy is made, and non-nil atoms are rejected.
2015-08-07T07:14:25Z pjb: jasom: it's trivial, copying NIL is eq to NIL!
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2015-08-07T07:15:42Z jasom: pjb: hmm, I suppose the hyperspec contradicts itself there
2015-08-07T07:16:06Z pjb: Nope.
2015-08-07T07:16:36Z jasom: since (append (list (append (list a) (list 'b) 'nil)) (list c) d 'nil) is most certainly not the same as (list* (cons a '(b)) c d) when d is not a list
2015-08-07T07:17:31Z pjb: jasom: the clhs specifies the semantics of append.  an implementation may use list* ONLY IF d is not a list.
2015-08-07T07:17:47Z pjb: s/is not a list/is a list/
2015-08-07T07:18:19Z jasom: sbcl is buggy then
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2015-08-07T07:18:33Z pjb: Surprised?
2015-08-07T07:18:36Z pjb: >;-}
2015-08-07T07:18:40Z jasom: not really
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2015-08-07T07:19:26Z jasom: I'm not convinced you're right unless the "but it could also be legitimately interpreted to mean..." section is non-normative
2015-08-07T07:19:34Z pjb: Indeed, when it says that, yes.
2015-08-07T07:19:48Z Bike: is that, like, a cleft lip, or maybe a mustache
2015-08-07T07:19:53Z pjb: they forgot to say (and (listp d) …)
2015-08-07T07:20:10Z pjb: Bike: it's the devil: >:-}
2015-08-07T07:20:35Z Bike: the devil should shave
2015-08-07T07:20:40Z pjb: Of course, since it's now a decadence of emojis, they write (devil) in Skype nowadays.
2015-08-07T07:21:07Z jasom: I always thought it was a goatee
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2015-08-07T07:21:57Z pjb: Yes you'r right, the devil is: >:-> ;I misremembered.
2015-08-07T07:22:03Z pjb: https://www.csh.rit.edu/~kenny/misc/smiley.html
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2015-08-07T07:55:03Z derp_t: Is it possible to learn how to program from the SICP *lectures* and MIT Scheme interpreter?
2015-08-07T07:56:02Z pjb: Definitely.
2015-08-07T07:56:08Z pjb: That's the purpose of this book.
2015-08-07T07:56:13Z pjb: And videos.
2015-08-07T07:56:21Z Zhivago: Just as long as you don't confuse that with learning scheme.
2015-08-07T07:56:27Z pjb: derp_t: better read the sicp book along watching the videos.
2015-08-07T07:57:11Z derp_t: I don't really want to learn a Lisp. I just want to learn about stuff like tail recursion and programming fundamentals.
2015-08-07T07:58:05Z Zhivago: To understand tail recursion, learn continuation-passing-style.
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2015-08-07T07:58:32Z Zhivago: Tail recursion is just optimizing out support for backtracking.
2015-08-07T07:58:58Z pjb: derp_t: then sicp is perfect for you.
2015-08-07T08:00:31Z Zhivago: When people talk about iteration vs. recursion, they should probably be talking instead about backtracking.
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2015-08-07T08:37:27Z jasom: Zhivago: It is just as correct to talk about it in a control-stack and stack-frame reuse
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2015-08-07T08:42:48Z jasom: Zhivago: actually I don't see why CPS is neeeded to talk about optimizing out support for backtracking, CPS just happens to generate a large number of tail calls.
2015-08-07T08:43:48Z Zhivago: CPS makes the fundamental call structure obvious.
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2015-08-07T09:08:00Z Vityok:  cliki is down
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2015-08-07T09:11:52Z Vityok: up again
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2015-08-07T09:14:33Z ehu: Vityok: yea. reboot to load new kernel.
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2015-08-07T09:16:38Z Vityok: ehu: btw, is it possible to tweak the CSS on cliki to make it more mobile-friendly
2015-08-07T09:16:43Z Vityok: ?
2015-08-07T09:16:54Z ehu: Vityok: sure.
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2015-08-07T09:17:58Z ehu: Vityok: submit your pull requests / patches here: https://github.com/vsedach/cliki2
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2015-08-07T09:27:59Z luis: Zhivago: "To understand tail recursion, learn CPS" really? Do you think that's good advice for a beginner?
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2015-08-07T09:37:40Z Vityok: ehu: ok, understood, the only problem left is to figure out how to force mobile chrome to wrap lines of text
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2015-08-07T09:39:03Z Vityok: after 30 years after emergence of WWW it is now a problem to view text on the Web.
2015-08-07T09:39:16Z ehu: :-)
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2015-08-07T09:42:39Z Vityok: does anybody have an idea what kind of magic is missing in Cliki CSS that mobile chrome does not wrap lines?
2015-08-07T09:42:49Z Vityok: to make the text more readable on small screens
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2015-08-07T09:45:08Z pjb: You can write conditions in the css: http://www.studiopress.com/design/website-respond-mobile-devices.htm or you can put a meta in the head to let the browser adjust sizes.
2015-08-07T09:45:48Z pjb: https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/layouts/rwd-fundamentals/set-the-viewport?hl=en
2015-08-07T09:46:00Z jackdaniel: Vityok: maybe you should use something like @media(min-width:60em) {}
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2015-08-07T09:47:00Z jackdaniel: or max-width, depends. for phones you should use dpi as well for tweaks - note that some have dpi >120dpi, and text needs to be laarge
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2015-08-07T09:49:43Z Vityok: I guess it has something to do with default scale or similar
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2015-08-07T09:53:41Z pjb: Well, I gave you the solution, if you fancy still guessing…
2015-08-07T09:59:25Z jackdaniel: pjb: article in link assumes, that pixels are definite indicator, if something has small screen. unfortunately my phone has 4.3'' and 1280 x 720 and sites realying on such doesn't work well with it :|
2015-08-07T10:00:38Z jackdaniel: what works quite nicelly is bumping font-size to 2em when min-resolution is 120dpi
2015-08-07T10:00:58Z jackdaniel: but this is lispweb talk, sorry
2015-08-07T10:00:59Z pjb: jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-08-07T12:45:49Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-08-07T13:07:02Z dlowe: parse-timestring isn't a general date/time parser
2015-08-07T13:08:18Z Adlai: dlowe: if it helps you, i've written parse-rfc1123-timestring, and only round tuitts prevent me from upstreaming it to local-time
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2015-08-07T13:08:49Z dlowe: I think there's already a parser library built on top of local-time that handles rfc 1123
2015-08-07T13:09:23Z Adlai: it's probably more efficient than my abomination, which chops up the timestring into that other rfc that local-time does know how to handle :D
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2015-08-07T14:02:58Z smokeink: how to stop a thread that runs an infinite loop?  bordeaux-threads:destroy-thread doesn't stop it
2015-08-07T14:03:21Z Zhivago: It may need some cancellation point, from memory.
2015-08-07T14:03:38Z smokeink: what's a cancellation point
2015-08-07T14:03:44Z p_l: depends on whether the implementation allows for interrupting threads or not
2015-08-07T14:03:52Z smokeink: sbcl
2015-08-07T14:04:25Z Zhivago: Anyhow, I suspect it is documented.
2015-08-07T14:05:21Z Xach: smokeink: I don't know, but if I wanted to do it, I'd use something like join-thread or interrupt-thread.
2015-08-07T14:05:28Z Xach: "I'd try", rather
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2015-08-07T14:06:38Z smokeink: Xach: i put join-thread before destroy-thread and it works now. thanks
2015-08-07T14:06:45Z Adlai: sometimes (loop) can only be stopped by the OS
2015-08-07T14:07:21Z smokeink: or at least it seems it worked.. the app freezed :D
2015-08-07T14:09:23Z Adlai: wonderful thing, english... the wind breezed, but the app froze
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2015-08-07T14:13:59Z Zhivago: Well, I wouldn't say 'breezed'.
2015-08-07T14:14:47Z Zhivago: "the breeze waft" would probably be better.
2015-08-07T14:14:54Z Adlai: waft-ed?
2015-08-07T14:14:58Z Xach: You can hurt your head if you go through enough tough boughs in English.
2015-08-07T14:15:14Z Adlai: better yet, wafte! (rhymes with waste)
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2015-08-07T14:18:27Z smokeink: it froze cuz thread-join is waiting for the infinite loop to end it seems
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2015-08-07T14:22:43Z freehck: people, hello! =)
2015-08-07T14:22:56Z freehck: is there somebody who programs with Racket Scheme?
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2015-08-07T14:23:27Z freehck: >>> I wanna compile an exe file with raco, but I have some additional collections imported via require into namespace and stored in the lib/ directory in the root of project.  How can I ask raco to look for them when I compile my program with "raco exe lib/utils/prog.ss"?
2015-08-07T14:23:43Z oleo: there's #scheme freehck
2015-08-07T14:23:43Z schjetne: freehck: this channel is for Common Lisp
2015-08-07T14:23:49Z freehck: ok, thx.
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2015-08-07T14:27:43Z dlowe: there's ##lisp, too
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2015-08-07T14:30:42Z freehck: dlowe: thanks, i'll smap there too. )
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2015-08-07T14:35:52Z smokeink: destroy-thread works well on threads that don't send qt signals to widgets.. my thread sends such signals from inside the infinite loop, somehow this makes destroy-thread fail .. for now i'll just stick with the crappy solution of setting a global variable *thread-should-stop* to t and checking for it inside the loop
2015-08-07T14:37:45Z schjetne: Apparently things like destroy-thread and join-thread shouldn't be used in production code, so your solution is probably the appropriate one. Not sure why this is, though, those functions are very handy.
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2015-08-07T14:38:42Z schjetne: From the API reference, "The following functions may be provided for debugging purposes, but are not advised to be called from normal user code."
2015-08-07T14:38:51Z schjetne: I guess it means it's not present in all implementations
2015-08-07T14:40:11Z smokeink: btw i managed to extend lisp-cv (the opencv bindings for lisp) with the functions i needed. I was getting those segfauls cuz SOME of the C bindings automatically generated by opencv had not been tested by the opencv team , so they were actually WRONG. I fixed the c wrapping functions then i had no trouble any more, i could cffi onto them
2015-08-07T14:40:53Z Xach: smokeink: where is lisp-cv?
2015-08-07T14:41:02Z smokeink: so now i'm playing with opencv inside qt - capturing a video and sending it to an actual gui window
2015-08-07T14:41:58Z smokeink: https://github.com/W-Net-AI/LISP-CV
2015-08-07T14:43:26Z native_killer: :S
2015-08-07T14:43:46Z smokeink: https://github.com/W-Net-AI/LISP-CV/blob/master/examples/examples.lisp
2015-08-07T14:45:02Z mbuf is now known as mbuf_
2015-08-07T14:46:20Z smokeink: just 1 thing u have to do if you wanna use it: after getting opencv's sourcecode, don't forget to run     git checkout 3.0-ocl-tp2. Then compile  . lisp-cv bindings are made for version 3.0-ocl-tp2
2015-08-07T14:46:34Z smokeink: it took me a while to figure this out
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2015-08-07T14:47:43Z smokeink: also, i recommend to compile opencv without debugging symbols. the debug version has some strange bugs , i hope this happens only in this 3.0-ocl-tp2 version
2015-08-07T14:49:12Z cxmu: where is gigamonkey
2015-08-07T14:49:20Z LiamH quit (Quit: Page closed)
2015-08-07T14:49:45Z jdz: whene you need him
2015-08-07T14:49:50Z jdz: *when
2015-08-07T14:50:24Z cxmu: i need him right now
2015-08-07T14:50:40Z smokeink: does anyone know if it's possible to send QImage s as parameters to signals ? the way i'm doing it is that' i'm sending the QImage's raw pointer (Qt::Pointer slot) as a long, then i reconstruct the QImage inside the signal handler.. does anyone know a simpler way?
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2015-08-07T14:52:27Z Xach: cxmu: He does not use IRC
2015-08-07T14:52:31Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2015-08-07T14:52:42Z cxmu: he used to use irc
2015-08-07T14:53:33Z Xach: cxmu: his last, brief visit was over a year ago
2015-08-07T14:53:58Z cxmu: what happened
2015-08-07T14:54:01Z Xach: and that was the first visit in three years
2015-08-07T14:54:13Z cxmu: yeah i am talking about 2011
2015-08-07T14:54:14Z cxmu: well more like 2010
2015-08-07T14:54:24Z Xach: I don't know. I suspect he doesn't do much with Common Lisp any more.
2015-08-07T14:54:31Z cxmu: he owes me 20 bucks
2015-08-07T14:54:43Z cxmu: and i am here to collect the debt
2015-08-07T14:54:48Z Xach: This is the wrong place.
2015-08-07T14:55:12Z jackdaniel often imagines, that famous lisp heroes are just under cover here and watch silently, without judge, connected with their tao ;)
2015-08-07T14:55:39Z Zhivago: The trick is getting the right kind of bolts.
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2015-08-07T14:56:44Z cxmu: gigamonkey where are you !!
2015-08-07T14:56:48Z cxmu: i need my 20 dollars!
2015-08-07T14:56:55Z Xach: cxmu: go away.
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2015-08-07T14:57:12Z cxmu: Xach, what if i told you i am gigamonkey
2015-08-07T14:57:24Z cxmu: would you still tell me to go away
2015-08-07T14:57:26Z Adlai: smokeink: this is the kind of "unhelpful help" that i hate receiving... but if you're resorting to inter-thread communication using global variables, you may have an unfactored abstraction... i strongly recommend that you look into multiprocessing abstractions beyond raw threading
2015-08-07T14:57:46Z dlowe: cxmu: it looks like you're on IRC from work.
2015-08-07T14:58:08Z cxmu: hey now, i'm not judging
2015-08-07T14:58:28Z Adlai: nobody is allowed to troll here, not even peter
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2015-08-07T14:58:36Z cxmu: i profusely apologize
2015-08-07T14:58:57Z Zhivago: I'd generalize that to 'if you are using threads, you probably should be using processes instead'.
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2015-08-07T14:59:05Z cxmu: the reason i am seeking gigamonkey is because he once declared me the Dr. Gonzo of the hacker culture
2015-08-07T14:59:26Z cxmu: and i met a girl on okcupid who apparently knows LISP and of gigamonkey
2015-08-07T14:59:47Z cxmu: and now i am seeking that intimate friendship i once shared with him
2015-08-07T15:00:03Z Xach: cxmu: go away.
2015-08-07T15:00:12Z jackdaniel: then contact with him with e-mail, don't bother whole channel
2015-08-07T15:01:05Z Zhivago: Alternately, tattoo the message on your forehead and leap in front of television cameras at each opportunity.
2015-08-07T15:01:21Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-07T15:05:46Z smokeink: Adlai: i just need a separate process/thread that reads frames from a video file and updates the gui with the current frame
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2015-08-07T15:06:25Z smokeink: nothing fancy. it's just that i've never done threads on lisp, and haven't done much threading in other languages either
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2015-08-07T15:10:08Z Adlai uses chanl, but it's lacking a process abstraction, and in the process (ha!) of adding one, he's gravitating towards some "actors"-like system
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2015-08-07T15:10:32Z smokeink: there's the main thread for the qt gui, that has to be kept responding to the user interaction: i can't afford to put any time consuming/infinite loops in it. the qt window can receive signals from other threads, and that's how it's working now, with that global variable.. dunno what abstractions i could make here. hmm
2015-08-07T15:11:12Z Adlai: in classic CSP, yu'd have a separate process for input, and for the gui
2015-08-07T15:11:32Z Adlai: with arbitrarily many processes between them, processing the input and any other data that needs to affect the GUI
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2015-08-07T15:12:49Z jackdaniel: smokeink: lparallel gives you channels for communication
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2015-08-07T15:13:53Z jackdaniel: pardon, channels are for tasks - I mean queues for communication
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2015-08-07T15:18:47Z Adlai: chanl also gives you channels! :D
2015-08-07T15:19:21Z Adlai: and a halfassed/stolen thread pool so you don't have to think twice before killing or respawning
2015-08-07T15:19:50Z jackdaniel: never used chanl, but it seems they bring something similar to table
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2015-08-07T16:28:15Z sigjuice: If I want to use my own copy of a library provided by quicklisp, should I just place it in quicklisp/local-projects/ ?
2015-08-07T16:29:35Z sigjuice: nevermind. https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html explains this.
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2015-08-07T17:27:08Z myrkraverk: When I do (let* ((foo (drakma:http-request ...)) ...) ...) at what time is the http-request guaranteed to be closed, if ever?
2015-08-07T17:27:39Z eudoxia: immediately after foo, that is, in the second ...
2015-08-07T17:28:01Z myrkraverk: Thank you.
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2015-08-07T17:38:27Z jackdaniel: spec logical-pathnme
2015-08-07T17:38:32Z jackdaniel: how specbot works?
2015-08-07T17:38:38Z jackdaniel: specbot: help
2015-08-07T17:38:38Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop.
2015-08-07T17:38:50Z jackdaniel: clhs logical-pathname
2015-08-07T17:38:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_logica.htm
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2015-08-07T17:38:56Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-08-07T20:10:22Z autodidact: does anyone know if sbcl is my only option for a lisp interpreter in debian testing?
2015-08-07T20:10:40Z autodidact: im not quite sure what to make of the package list as im new to lisp
2015-08-07T20:11:24Z Bike: there's clisp too, i think.
2015-08-07T20:11:41Z autodidact: its broken in testing
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2015-08-07T20:12:59Z dlowe: well, if you only have one option, sbcl is a good one to have
2015-08-07T20:13:30Z edgar-rft: "apt-cache search common lisp" tells me that debian has packages for the CMUCL, GCL, SBCL, CLISP, and ECL implementations
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2015-08-07T20:14:37Z autodidact: read: testing edgar-rft
2015-08-07T20:14:51Z autodidact: i guess dlowe, ill just use it then
2015-08-07T20:15:37Z edgar-rft prefers self-compiled implementations
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2015-08-07T20:19:55Z edgar-rft: <https://packages.debian.org/testing/lisp/> says that SBCL is the only available package in testing
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2015-08-07T20:23:46Z foom: don't look under "lisp", then.
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2015-08-07T20:24:06Z foom: categorizing is hard, just use search. :)
2015-08-07T20:25:19Z foom: (a bunch of them are under "devel" instead of "lisp")
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2015-08-07T20:47:16Z otjura: I recommend SBCL. ECL for embedded things.
2015-08-07T20:50:41Z jasom: eudoxia: I think you were the one who showed interest in my react addon for parenscript; I reworked it to not need the jsx transformer now.
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2015-08-07T20:50:59Z eudoxia: cool
2015-08-07T20:51:11Z eudoxia: incidentally, i've been looking at the implementation of parenscript as of late
2015-08-07T20:51:20Z jasom: I have too
2015-08-07T20:51:23Z eudoxia: it's pretty smart with the way it handles function calls and also if being a statement
2015-08-07T20:51:44Z eudoxia: like, if you look at how it compiles relatively complex things like ifs inside nested lets, you see it performs very little work
2015-08-07T20:52:03Z eudoxia: shame it doesn't compile CLOS though :/
2015-08-07T20:52:12Z jasom: yeah, they are big on not generating too much unneeded js
2015-08-07T20:52:31Z jasom: Their setf is a bit of a mess though; I'd like to rework it to be more like the CL setf
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2015-08-07T20:52:49Z eudoxia: yeah, the requirement that every Lisp expression should correspond to a JS expression (ie, no prelude.js) is limiting
2015-08-07T20:54:59Z jasom: I needed a more CL-ish setf (I wanted define-setf-expander)  so I just wrote one; I need to tweak it so that for all the existing SETFs it generates the simple straightforward JS, and then I'll make a PR
2015-08-07T20:55:42Z knobo: Can I catch an error and store it in a closure, return it, and handle it later?
2015-08-07T20:55:46Z eudoxia: jasom: one idea i've been toying with is building a kind of implementation-independent JS ffi, so you can write CL that talks to JavaScript and it works whether you're on ParenScript, JSCL, or some future ClojureScript-level implementation
2015-08-07T20:55:57Z eudoxia: i wrote a little implementation and it's a little verbose though
2015-08-07T20:55:59Z jasom: knobo: I'm not sure what you mean by that
2015-08-07T20:56:48Z jasom: The other thing I'd like to do is completely rewrite the multiple-value code in parenscript.  It is currently useless
2015-08-07T20:57:03Z eudoxia: jasom: i haven't looked into that bit, how does it work?
2015-08-07T20:57:09Z jasom: eudoxia: well it doesn't work
2015-08-07T20:57:13Z eudoxia: huh
2015-08-07T20:57:25Z eudoxia: well i came up with an implementation the other day but it requires, well, a prelude :P
2015-08-07T20:57:28Z jasom: eudoxia: e.g. (defun foo () (values 1 2)) (defun bar () (foo)) (bar) => 1
2015-08-07T20:57:36Z knobo: jasom: invoking restarts at a later time.
2015-08-07T20:57:53Z eudoxia: idea is: a call to values returns the first value, and stores the rest in a global array. then a call to multiple-value-call extract those, if any
2015-08-07T20:57:57Z jasom: knobo: you won't be able to restart the code later, no
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2015-08-07T20:58:12Z jasom: eudoxia: that's very nearly how it works right now
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2015-08-07T20:58:27Z eudoxia: yey convergent evolution
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2015-08-07T20:59:14Z knobo: jasom: something like (catch-any-error  (lambda (restarts) (lambda (name) (get-restart-by-name name restarts))) (error "..."))))
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2015-08-07T21:00:08Z jasom: knobo: you won't be able to restart the code, since the context for it is gone.  Otherwise you could probably implement call/cc with restarts
2015-08-07T21:00:11Z knobo: then after that I would do (funcall :my-restart *)
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2015-08-07T21:00:43Z knobo: jasom: right somthing like call/cc
2015-08-07T21:01:00Z knobo: Why did I not think of that.
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2015-08-07T21:02:36Z jasom: eudoxia: var prevMv4 = 'undefined' === typeof __PS_MV_REG ? (__PS_MV_REG = undefined) : __PS_MV_REG;  <-- there's how it gets around the no prefix issue
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2015-08-07T21:03:22Z eudoxia: right
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2015-08-07T21:03:30Z eudoxia: i'm only seeing the implementation of multiple-value-bind though
2015-08-07T21:03:34Z eudoxia: where's the implementation of values?
2015-08-07T21:04:27Z jasom: I don't recall, but it's trivial, it sets __PS_MV_REG['tag'] to the name of the function you are currently in and __PS_MV_REG['values'] to all but the first value
2015-08-07T21:04:49Z jasom: which is why multiple values can't be returned through more than one function
2015-08-07T21:05:34Z eudoxia: hmm
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2015-08-07T21:05:54Z jasom: also values is not a function in parenscript, so you can't even do (apply #'values (multiple-value-list (foo))) to work around it
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2015-08-07T21:10:40Z jasom: If I'm thinking about this right, clearing __PS_MV_REG immediately before every parenscript generated return statement should allow you to not need the tag
2015-08-07T21:10:48Z jasom: but it adds overhead to each return
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2015-08-07T21:11:29Z eudoxia: ah, but there's a problem
2015-08-07T21:11:48Z eudoxia: what happens with something like (list (values 1 2 3) (values 4 5 6))
2015-08-07T21:11:53Z eudoxia: i think you'd get (4 4)
2015-08-07T21:12:28Z jasom: that's a non-issue you'd just get 1 4 since you aren't using PS_MV_REG in the result
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2015-08-07T21:16:00Z eudoxia: hm
2015-08-07T21:16:01Z jasom: huh, it's already smart enough to issue a __PS_MV_REG = {}; before a return *if* you called (values) earlier in the function
2015-08-07T21:17:50Z eudoxia: yeah parenscript is really smart
2015-08-07T21:18:10Z eudoxia: though it's hard to find where the smart algorithms are
2015-08-07T21:18:37Z jasom: Is there a mailing list?  I'd like to take the pulse of other parenscript devs about this.
2015-08-07T21:19:07Z eudoxia: i think so
2015-08-07T21:19:16Z jasom: https://github.com/vsedach/Parenscript/issues/4 <-- oh I forgot about this issue too
2015-08-07T21:19:25Z eudoxia: why not just open an issue
2015-08-07T21:19:55Z eudoxia: oh lol
2015-08-07T21:20:12Z eudoxia: me, i've never even used a mailing list. if i have a question i just open an issue or tweet at the author.
2015-08-07T21:20:39Z jasom: I guess my habits are from before github and twitter
2015-08-07T21:20:55Z jasom: IRC and mailing-lists (now that usenet is dead)
2015-08-07T21:21:17Z eudoxia: often the author's not on IRC
2015-08-07T21:21:24Z jasom: right, so mailing lists
2015-08-07T21:21:43Z jasom: I idle 24x7 in any channel for which I'm an active developer
2015-08-07T21:22:01Z jasom: however, I don't use twitter
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2015-08-07T21:22:40Z jasom: I have an account, as there was a developer I collaborated with that was only on twitter.  I'm not collaborating with him anymore, so I haven't logged in to twitter in about a year.
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2015-08-07T21:23:42Z jasom: whoa, I have a follower that doesn't look like a bot
2015-08-07T21:23:49Z jasom: but this is off-topic now
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2015-08-07T21:32:06Z dwchandler: jasom: off-topic here, but feel free to tweet about it
2015-08-07T21:35:26Z jasom: oh damnit, parenscript switched from a mailing list to google groups
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2015-08-07T21:43:04Z foom: google groups is also a mailing list service?
2015-08-07T21:43:15Z jasom: oh, apparently it is; I didn't know that
2015-08-07T21:43:33Z jasom: how do I find the e-mail address for a group?
2015-08-07T21:44:01Z jasom: how do I subscribe?
2015-08-07T21:45:00Z foom: the "join group" button at the top?
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2015-08-07T21:46:34Z dwchandler: I don't see a join button. There's "apply for membership" and "contact the owner" links, though
2015-08-07T21:46:35Z jasom: ah, I found the "subscribe to this group" link
2015-08-07T21:47:01Z jasom: you have to be not logged in with your google account for it to appear though
2015-08-07T21:47:20Z dwchandler: ah...
2015-08-07T21:47:55Z foom: Not sure what page you're looking at, but there should be a "Join Group" button on the message-list page for the group?
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2015-08-07T21:49:01Z foom: e.g. on this page: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/closure-compiler-discuss
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2015-08-07T21:49:20Z foom: (except for whatever group you want, obv)
2015-08-07T21:49:21Z dwchandler: Not for me, but probably because of the google login I'm using (enterprise thingy)
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2015-08-07T21:49:40Z foom: Oh, maybe your domain admin doesn't let you join non-domain groups or something.
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2015-08-07T21:50:18Z jasom: I don't even check my gmail account, so I wanted to subscribe with not-gmail
2015-08-07T21:50:38Z dwchandler: I got the usual Join button on closure-compiler-discuss. parenscript is a members-only group, though
2015-08-07T21:50:48Z jasom: ah
2015-08-07T21:52:11Z jasom: So I can post to the group, but can't join it.  That's an interesting set of permissions
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2015-08-07T23:19:45Z jasom: If I C-x C-e an infinite loop in slime, how do I kill it?
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2015-08-07T23:23:01Z Oladon: You may have to M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2015-08-07T23:23:09Z Oladon: You can try C-c C-c
2015-08-07T23:23:14Z Oladon: But that may or may not work
2015-08-07T23:24:27Z scymtym: jasom: C-c C-x t (i.e. slime-list-threads), select "worker", press "d" on that thread to enter debugger and select restart or continue (or "k" instead of "d" in thread list to destroy immediately)
2015-08-07T23:24:53Z scymtym: be careful if the thread is running foreign code, though
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2015-08-08T01:00:33Z akkad: slime list thread, nice
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2015-08-08T01:29:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-08T01:30:33Z akkad: morning
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2015-08-08T01:47:54Z jason_m: If using md5 authentication with postregsql, is there anything additional i need to do to use clsql with :postgresql-socket backend?
2015-08-08T01:48:29Z jason_m: i can connect from the command line with psql just fine, but get "password authentication failed" from lisp
2015-08-08T01:48:53Z jason_m: i'm using my plain text password in the connection spec
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2015-08-08T01:52:46Z akkad: jason_m: I had to move to postmodern to avoid that error
2015-08-08T01:53:05Z jangle: looking for help.  I have made a system with asdf, when I go to load it, either with quickload or with asdf:operate, the package symbol is interned but none of the symbols in any of the files that are associated with the system
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2015-08-08T01:53:41Z jangle: the files have the (in-package) form, and when I use slime-compile-defun on forms I add to these files the symbols show up under the rigtht package
2015-08-08T01:53:54Z jangle: dependencies noted in the defsystem are loaded
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2015-08-08T01:54:34Z beach: jangle: What argument do you give to IN-PACKAGE?
2015-08-08T01:55:07Z beach: jangle: And what do you mean by "the package symbol"?
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2015-08-08T01:55:10Z jangle: beach: (in-package :widgets) in the files
2015-08-08T01:55:27Z beach: jangle: And where do you define :widgets?
2015-08-08T01:55:43Z jangle: when i do (apropos "widgets") I see widgets-asd::widgets
2015-08-08T01:56:02Z beach: So what is :widgets-asd?
2015-08-08T01:56:05Z jangle: uh… in my .asd file i have (asdf:defsystem #:widgets
2015-08-08T01:56:18Z beach: jangle: I think you are confusing packages and systems.
2015-08-08T01:56:24Z beach: ASDF does not define a package.
2015-08-08T01:56:29Z beach: DEFPACKAGE does.
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2015-08-08T01:56:52Z jangle: well I do have a package.lisp with the defpackage call
2015-08-08T01:57:12Z beach: And what is the name of the package that you define in package.lisp?
2015-08-08T01:57:15Z jangle: and it is included as a compononent in my asd file.
2015-08-08T01:57:26Z jason_m: akkad: thanks for the info.  i liked the idea of a common interface to many backends, but not if it doesn't work!
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2015-08-08T02:02:55Z beach: jangle: Did you faint?
2015-08-08T02:03:23Z jason_m: i've obtained clsql through quicklisp.  how i can (re)load the system so i can step into it?
2015-08-08T02:03:57Z jangle: beach: no, i don't know where the :widgets-asd is coming from
2015-08-08T02:04:20Z beach: jangle: Can you tell me the name of the package you define with DEFPACKAGE?
2015-08-08T02:04:34Z jangle: beach: sorry didn't see your last question, the name in the defpackage is :widgets
2015-08-08T02:05:40Z Oladon: jason_m: What do you mean? If you've quickloaded it, it's ready to be used.
2015-08-08T02:05:45Z beach: Try using an interned symbol in the defsystem form.  like (asdf:defsystem :widgets
2015-08-08T02:05:50Z beach: rather than #:widgets.
2015-08-08T02:05:59Z beach: ASDF does something weird with system names.
2015-08-08T02:06:19Z beach: actually, no that can't be it.
2015-08-08T02:06:20Z jason_m: Oladon: I can use it, but i can't hit any of its code with (step (..)) for example
2015-08-08T02:06:54Z Oladon: jason_m: ah
2015-08-08T02:07:00Z beach: jangle: For some reason, you seem to have a package named widgets-asd rather than widgets.
2015-08-08T02:07:26Z beach: jangle: Do you have another DEFPACKAGE form somewhere?
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2015-08-08T02:07:53Z jangle: beach: i seem to have both.  when I apropos widgets I see common-lisp::widgets-asd and widgets-asd:widgets
2015-08-08T02:08:16Z beach: jangle: Uh oh.  Not good.
2015-08-08T02:08:24Z beach: common-lisp::widgets-asd is not good.
2015-08-08T02:08:59Z beach: jangle: Do you have another DEFPACKAGE form somewhere?
2015-08-08T02:09:03Z jangle: i have no other defpackage forms
2015-08-08T02:09:41Z beach: Do you have other IN-PACKAGE forms?
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2015-08-08T02:13:35Z beach: jangle: Is there a way you can make your code available so that I can look at it?
2015-08-08T02:14:30Z jangle: beach: one moment
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2015-08-08T02:22:15Z jangle: beach: may I pm?
2015-08-08T02:22:22Z beach: Sure.
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2015-08-08T02:23:40Z jason_m: Oladon: Thought I'd share: http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql/2013-March/002112.html
2015-08-08T02:24:05Z jason_m: Oladon: :database-type :postgresql-socket3 did the trick for me
2015-08-08T02:24:15Z jason_m: looks like there is a couple year old bug in md5?
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2015-08-08T02:29:18Z jason_m: i re-read the comments there, there isn't a bug in md5, just a change a couple years ago that the postgresql-socket backend doesn't seem to have resolved yet
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2015-08-08T02:51:52Z BradKuntz: is lisp still popular?
2015-08-08T02:51:59Z beach: Very.
2015-08-08T02:52:47Z BradKuntz: what is it popular in?
2015-08-08T02:52:55Z beach: Everything.
2015-08-08T02:53:21Z White_Flame: it's  a general purpose, multi-paradigm full programming language
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2015-08-08T02:55:11Z beach: “Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and Ecommerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.”
2015-08-08T02:55:41Z BradKuntz: i'm curious
2015-08-08T02:56:02Z BradKuntz: there's still a lisp community but nobody talks about lisp in job interviews
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2015-08-08T02:56:19Z White_Flame: Lisp is mentioned a fair bit nowadays in job postings
2015-08-08T02:56:26Z beach: BradKuntz: That's because the sad state of the software industry.
2015-08-08T02:56:41Z BradKuntz: why is it sad?
2015-08-08T02:56:45Z White_Flame: "We want you to use $LAME_LANGUAGE, but familiarity with languages like Lisp is desired"
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2015-08-08T02:57:07Z beach: BradKuntz: It doesn't mention Common Lisp in job postings.
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2015-08-08T02:57:33Z BradKuntz: it mentions python or ruby or objective c or swift or java
2015-08-08T02:57:35Z White_Flame: Clojure is also certainly used, and while it's a break from Common Lisp, it's still a Lisp
2015-08-08T02:57:45Z beach: BradKuntz: That's exactly what I mean.
2015-08-08T02:57:48Z BradKuntz: aside from html css and javascript
2015-08-08T02:58:24Z BradKuntz: i bought a book on lisp because steve wozniak said that lisp is an amazing language
2015-08-08T02:58:33Z beach: What book?
2015-08-08T02:58:42Z BradKuntz: he didn't recommend me the book but i bought it
2015-08-08T02:58:52Z BradKuntz: the book is called land of lisp
2015-08-08T02:58:59Z BradKuntz: it has a nice cover :)
2015-08-08T02:59:05Z BradKuntz: terrible reason to buy a book...
2015-08-08T02:59:25Z beach: If you already know how to program in other languages, people here often recommend "practical common lisp"
2015-08-08T02:59:27Z White_Flame: that's a good, practical introduction to the language.  Have you gone through it?
2015-08-08T02:59:33Z beach: minion: Please tell BradKuntz about PCL.
2015-08-08T02:59:33Z minion: BradKuntz: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-08-08T03:00:01Z BradKuntz: https://www.nostarch.com/lisp.htm
2015-08-08T03:00:13Z BradKuntz: ^ is the book i have
2015-08-08T03:00:39Z White_Flame: BradKuntz: have you gone through it?
2015-08-08T03:00:40Z beach: We are familiar with it.  Or many people here are.
2015-08-08T03:00:54Z BradKuntz: i've gone through the first two chapters
2015-08-08T03:00:59Z BradKuntz: is it a good book?
2015-08-08T03:01:10Z White_Flame: I think it's a good practical introduction
2015-08-08T03:01:22Z White_Flame: while others like PCL might have more coverage of the language itsel
2015-08-08T03:01:23Z White_Flame: f
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2015-08-08T03:53:52Z autodidact: so #' is shorthand for function, ' for set, "" for string
2015-08-08T03:54:08Z Bike: ' for quote.
2015-08-08T03:54:59Z autodidact: ah right, different
2015-08-08T03:55:15Z kristof: They're reader macros
2015-08-08T03:55:32Z kristof: Which means yes, they're shorthands, but the point is you can program your own :)
2015-08-08T03:55:55Z autodidact: so wide open aliasing
2015-08-08T03:55:59Z autodidact: ?
2015-08-08T03:57:01Z autodidact: im just not sure where the mind blowing escher rethink programming point comes in
2015-08-08T03:57:07Z autodidact: i might noit be deep enough but...
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2015-08-08T03:57:41Z kristof: autodidact: It is never mind blowing. Just highly useful. The two best parts of Lisp are, in my opinion, closures and generic functions.
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2015-08-08T03:58:18Z autodidact: hrm
2015-08-08T03:58:29Z kristof: autodidact: There is long time lisp user whose first mind blowing experience with lisp was a derivative function, which takes a mathematical function and returns its approximate derivative
2015-08-08T03:58:54Z autodidact: long time lisp user?
2015-08-08T03:59:22Z kristof: as in, "since the 70s"
2015-08-08T03:59:40Z kristof: http://funcall.blogspot.com, Joe Marshall is his name.
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2015-08-08T04:09:03Z kristof: autodidact: Still here? I found the post.
2015-08-08T04:09:05Z kristof: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2009/03/not-lisp-again.html
2015-08-08T04:09:50Z White_Flame: for me, the biggest shift that I'd been wanting for years was being able to run code at compile-time to modify, introspect, or generate source code.  This is what the CL macro system covers
2015-08-08T04:10:26Z kristof: Your shift, and my favorite feature, is sort of one and the same
2015-08-08T04:10:47Z kristof: I've got it: the lisp `enlightenment' is that everything should be operable upon as a datastructure.
2015-08-08T04:11:00Z kristof: Functions, programs, your entire object oriented dispatch system.
2015-08-08T04:11:14Z kristof: All manipulable.
2015-08-08T04:11:17Z White_Flame: data-oriented, declarative, specification-oriented, all made super easy
2015-08-08T04:11:25Z kristof: To other people, this is heresy. To lispers, this is common practice.
2015-08-08T04:11:45Z autodidact: yeah i read it
2015-08-08T04:11:54Z autodidact: i think its in scheme  but i can follow
2015-08-08T04:11:59Z kristof: It is
2015-08-08T04:12:08Z White_Flame: Nowadays, I tend to just write s-expression pseudo-code, then use that as a specification directly, just writing stumps to interpret or macro it
2015-08-08T04:12:14Z autodidact: seems to me i could perform that in c in generally the same manner though
2015-08-08T04:12:33Z White_Flame: not really
2015-08-08T04:12:35Z kristof: autodidact: With a function pointer? You can not. You cannot return new function pointers.
2015-08-08T04:12:44Z White_Flame: you'd have to use string operations to build up source code, shell out to a compiler, and dynamically link back in
2015-08-08T04:12:52Z kristof: "function pointers to new functions that you have not written before compiling"
2015-08-08T04:12:59Z autodidact: but why would i need to, just send the value directly
2015-08-08T04:13:12Z kristof: I don't follow
2015-08-08T04:13:27Z autodidact: i can cube 3 and send that to a derivative function
2015-08-08T04:13:33Z autodidact: which is arithmetic
2015-08-08T04:13:34Z kristof: Not true
2015-08-08T04:13:47Z kristof: The derivative function will have no knowledge of the structure of f
2015-08-08T04:13:59Z autodidact: ?
2015-08-08T04:14:05Z kristof: Have you taken a calculus course? Serious question, not meant to be pejorative.
2015-08-08T04:14:10Z autodidact: yes
2015-08-08T04:14:14Z autodidact: 3
2015-08-08T04:14:30Z kristof: You are saying there could exist a derivative function which takes a number and gives you back the slope
2015-08-08T04:14:33Z kristof: that does not make sense
2015-08-08T04:14:49Z White_Flame: the derivative of a constant is always zero, so it sort of does ;)
2015-08-08T04:14:53Z autodidact: oh
2015-08-08T04:14:54Z kristof: If you cube 3, and send it to the derivative function, it will just say "You gave me 27; what do I do with this?"
2015-08-08T04:14:56Z autodidact: i guess i am
2015-08-08T04:14:57Z autodidact: lol
2015-08-08T04:15:05Z autodidact: sorry
2015-08-08T04:15:09Z kristof: No it's fine
2015-08-08T04:15:30Z kristof: You can kind of do this with C. What I would do is define some function like this:
2015-08-08T04:16:40Z autodidact: yeah im not sure anymore
2015-08-08T04:17:44Z kristof: float derivative(float (*f)(float), float input)
2015-08-08T04:17:59Z autodidact: although in lisp, i think id still need to define the parameterized function somewhere ?
2015-08-08T04:18:33Z autodidact: so its saving me work my letting me expand the function when/where i want?
2015-08-08T04:18:47Z autodidact: yeah a function pointer maybe
2015-08-08T04:18:53Z autodidact: although ive messed with them very little
2015-08-08T04:19:08Z kristof: autodidact: So you would pass in the function pointer f, and the input, and it would give you the slope back. But what you can't do is define the derivative function: float(float) derivative (float (*f)(float))
2015-08-08T04:19:33Z kristof: autodidact: It's not just saving you work, it's saving you work because it's more expressive.
2015-08-08T04:20:17Z autodidact: as in, more pedantic?
2015-08-08T04:20:21Z White_Flame: it's not giving you an easier way of what you did before, it's letting you do something completely different which is better
2015-08-08T04:20:39Z kristof: ^Namely, creating functions from other functions at "runtime".
2015-08-08T04:20:41Z White_Flame: you can return a new function which run-time determined functionality
2015-08-08T04:20:53Z kristof: The trick is called a "closure". You are closing over the environment and heap allocating it.
2015-08-08T04:21:26Z kristof: So using Joe Marshall's code, you are creating a function pointer that also has access to some structure with the variable f defined.
2015-08-08T04:21:35Z White_Flame: the canonical simple example is "Given a parameter X, give me a function which when called, adds X to the result"
2015-08-08T04:21:49Z White_Flame: ..adds X to the parameter
2015-08-08T04:22:18Z White_Flame: func = gimmeAdder(3);  func(2) -> 5   func(3)->8
2015-08-08T04:22:25Z pjb: cxmu: gigamoney now works at twitter. He's contratualy forbidden to use irc.
2015-08-08T04:22:28Z pjb: +c
2015-08-08T04:22:35Z White_Flame: gigamoney ;)
2015-08-08T04:22:45Z pjb: Sold he soul, but he has children to feed.
2015-08-08T04:23:05Z kristof: autodidact: In Haskell, it is very common to use something called a "functor", which is a funny way of taking functions that work on As, and turn it into a function that works on Bs. This is impossible in languages that do not have closures.
2015-08-08T04:23:17Z cxmu: pjb, who the heck would work for twitter
2015-08-08T04:23:21Z cxmu: what a traitor
2015-08-08T04:23:38Z pjb: Somebody with children and invoices to pay.
2015-08-08T04:23:43Z autodidact: im here im just trying to comprehend your respective walls
2015-08-08T04:24:10Z kristof: autodidact: Did you at least understand the derivative example?
2015-08-08T04:24:20Z autodidact: ...yes, i think
2015-08-08T04:24:23Z cxmu: pjb, i found a girl into casual encounters who knows lisp
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2015-08-08T04:24:33Z cxmu: how do i save this beautiful mind
2015-08-08T04:24:39Z autodidact: being asked if i understand something always puts me in doubt as to whether i understand it
2015-08-08T04:24:55Z pjb: You can go to twitter and see him there. @petersiebel
2015-08-08T04:25:12Z White_Flame: autodidact: not seeing a "Oh, I see" response puts us in doubt as to whether or not you did as well :)
2015-08-08T04:25:13Z kristof: autodidact: Well, it's as simple as "this is a function which takes a math function and gives you the approximate numerical derivative"
2015-08-08T04:25:14Z pjb: autodidact: you never understand it entirely.
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2015-08-08T04:25:25Z cxmu: pjb, you have
2015-08-08T04:25:32Z cxmu: beat me
2015-08-08T04:25:35Z cxmu: defeated me
2015-08-08T04:25:51Z tgallant: hello everyone
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2015-08-08T04:26:22Z tgallant: anyone have experience with restas?
2015-08-08T04:26:59Z autodidact: kristof: the problem i have is the diference between that and the pointer-to-func, which was said to be different
2015-08-08T04:27:08Z autodidact: difference*
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2015-08-08T04:28:13Z White_Flame: autodidact: try to implement my simple adder example in C
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2015-08-08T04:29:08Z autodidact: ah yeah i forgot to ask about that
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2015-08-08T04:29:23Z autodidact: you want to 'get' a function, or a result
2015-08-08T04:29:28Z autodidact: if you see my distinction
2015-08-08T04:29:46Z White_Flame: you 'get' a customized function
2015-08-08T04:29:47Z autodidact: because i dont see why i cant use the ponter-to-func example
2015-08-08T04:29:51Z autodidact: ah
2015-08-08T04:29:51Z White_Flame: try it
2015-08-08T04:30:00Z kristof: autodidact: You can't return a new function in C
2015-08-08T04:30:11Z autodidact: well, i would have no idea how to get a pointer to a brand new function
2015-08-08T04:30:23Z autodidact: or
2015-08-08T04:30:29Z kristof: Because the closure requires having A) the function pointer as well as B) having access to some kind of environment structure allocated on the heap
2015-08-08T04:30:35Z autodidact: well
2015-08-08T04:30:37Z autodidact: hm
2015-08-08T04:31:13Z kristof: you can build all this stuff yourself into C, but then you lose function call syntax, and you also need to free the memory.
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2015-08-08T04:32:28Z kristof: Anyway, I hope I have proven my point :) the reality is that most good languages have closures now.
2015-08-08T04:32:29Z White_Flame: and the interesting thing is, by using this style of programming your programs can run faster than their C equivalents, which have to do a lot of manual dispatching for any sort of dynamic behavior
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2015-08-08T04:33:02Z pjb: knobo: what you want could be done with coroutine (implemented with call/cc in scheme), but without coroutines, you can do it with threads.  The thread in error can suspend or block, after having created another thread to perform what you have to do until you can interact with the user.
2015-08-08T04:33:16Z pjb: knobo: of course, this might multiply blocked threads.
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2015-08-08T04:36:44Z autodidact: so how does the function factory work
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2015-08-08T04:37:55Z kristof: autodidact: It returns an object that you can call like any other function, but it looks up the unspecified variables in an environment object that's created at the same time.
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2015-08-08T04:38:09Z kristof: Those details are really unimportant.
2015-08-08T04:40:30Z autodidact: i more meant what is the syntax to return such an opject
2015-08-08T04:40:40Z autodidact: would you just return the  name
2015-08-08T04:41:20Z autodidact: or, in the function defun to something that was passed in
2015-08-08T04:42:07Z autodidact: i should probably read more is what
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2015-08-08T04:45:04Z kristof: autodidact: There is no syntax in C. There is very little syntax in Lisp. The DEFUN macro returns the function object it defines
2015-08-08T04:45:22Z kristof: woah, what am I even saying
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2015-08-08T04:45:40Z kristof: autodidact: the LAMBDA special form is what returns a function object
2015-08-08T04:46:25Z White_Flame: (technically, it's the FUNCTION special form, but yes ;) )
2015-08-08T04:46:35Z pjb: jason_m: it would depend on the debug optimization level. The first question is whether that library changes the optimization levels or not.  If it doesn't then you can just set your own, rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and ql:quickload  it a gain recompiling with your new optimization level.  But if a damn library in there resets them globally, you're fucked.  There are a lot of fuckers: 3bil antik asdf-encodings beirc  buffalo cambl
2015-08-08T04:46:35Z pjb: cells etc,…
2015-08-08T04:46:35Z autodidact: ?
2015-08-08T04:46:38Z pjb: jason_m: find ~/quicklisp/dists/ \( -name \*.lisp -o -name \*.asd \) -exec grep -nHi '\(proclaim\|declaim\).*optimize' {} \;
2015-08-08T04:47:12Z tgallant: i'm hoping someone can help me out with this. i'm going through lispwebtales and am having some trouble using restas's define-policy macro. http://paste.lisp.org/display/153240
2015-08-08T04:47:18Z pjb: jason_m: And even if you clean those global declaim out, your specific library may still use declare optimize locally in each function.
2015-08-08T04:47:19Z tgallant: anyone have experience with that?
2015-08-08T04:47:45Z White_Flame: autodidact: (defun get-adder (x)  (lambda (num) (+ num x)))
2015-08-08T04:48:28Z White_Flame: (lambda (...parameters) ...body...) just like any other function, just it has no name
2015-08-08T04:48:28Z kristof: White_Flame: I would prefer make-adder
2015-08-08T04:48:33Z White_Flame: yeah
2015-08-08T04:48:42Z kristof: And I hate adders, in any case
2015-08-08T04:49:04Z autodidact: is (function (...parameters) ...body...)
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2015-08-08T04:49:09Z autodidact: equivalent or something
2015-08-08T04:49:26Z White_Flame: (defun name (...params..) ...body...) defines a top-level named function
2015-08-08T04:49:40Z Bike: an interesting thing in C is that where you'd use closures you instead pass a void* argument, so you can have the "closure environment" wherever you want. like on_exit(3) off the top of my head.
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2015-08-08T04:50:23Z White_Flame: autodidact: you can also define local functions that only exist in a particular lexical scope
2015-08-08T04:50:24Z pjb: kristof: symbolic function derivation what THE first application of LISP, this is basically the reason why JMC developped it in the first place! ;-)
2015-08-08T04:50:40Z pjb: kristof: so, "since 1958!".
2015-08-08T04:50:43Z autodidact: yeah ive been trying to make sense of scope since i started
2015-08-08T04:50:43Z kristof: pjb: Oh, yeah, I know that :)
2015-08-08T04:50:49Z autodidact: (this morning)
2015-08-08T04:50:50Z kristof: Wait, what was that in response to?
2015-08-08T04:51:05Z pjb: <05:58:29><kristof> autodidact: There is long time lisp user whose first mind blowing experience
2015-08-08T04:51:05Z pjb: with lisp was a derivative function, which takes a mathematical function and returns its
2015-08-08T04:51:08Z pjb: approximate derivative
2015-08-08T04:51:11Z pjb: <05:59:22><kristof> as in, "since the 70s"
2015-08-08T04:51:14Z pjb:  
2015-08-08T04:51:19Z White_Flame: autodidact: C++ has scopes for variables, if you're familiar with that language
2015-08-08T04:51:25Z pjb: it was the mind blow of the lisp _creator_ ! :-)
2015-08-08T04:51:37Z autodidact: i mean c does too
2015-08-08T04:51:39Z kristof: pjb: Oh, I was talking about Joe Marshall in particular
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2015-08-08T04:51:55Z kristof: He wondered what I meant by "long-time lisp user"
2015-08-08T04:52:07Z kristof: Working at Lisp Machiens Incorporated probably puts you up there.
2015-08-08T04:52:15Z autodidact: scope in lisp* sorry
2015-08-08T04:52:41Z White_Flame: autodidact: the nice thing about lexical scope in Lisp is that it's all very explicit via parenthesis
2015-08-08T04:53:02Z White_Flame: (...body... (let (...vars...)  ...body with those vars in scope...)  ...vars out of scope...)
2015-08-08T04:53:07Z kristof: pjb: And if you're familiar with the blog post I linked, it was about his first CS lecture at MIT where Gery Sussman blew his mind.
2015-08-08T04:53:44Z White_Flame: whereas in C, there are goofy questions of scope in for(int i=0;...) {...} bodies, asking where the scope of 'i' starts & ends
2015-08-08T04:54:05Z White_Flame: among other issues
2015-08-08T04:54:10Z autodidact: do people typically write main entry points or evaluate from top to bottom
2015-08-08T04:54:23Z kristof: Top to bottom.
2015-08-08T04:54:27Z kristof: Evaluation of top-level forms
2015-08-08T04:54:44Z White_Flame: usually the toplevel forms are just function, macro, and variable declarations
2015-08-08T04:54:45Z pjb: kristof: I don't know this blog post.
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2015-08-08T04:55:02Z White_Flame: you can shoot yourself in the foot easily if you put side-effectful behavior in the top level, but it's quite handy for testing
2015-08-08T04:55:40Z White_Flame: ie, everything on the top level runs when you compile/load the file
2015-08-08T04:55:46Z pjb: kristof: re function pointers, you can have C function generating new C functions.  You may use llvm for that, or you can write a file with the new function, fork a gcc to compile it as a shared library, then dynamically link it and use it.
2015-08-08T04:55:52Z White_Flame: so it can automatically run tests, print out information, etc
2015-08-08T04:56:11Z White_Flame: but it's usually for declaring your functions et al
2015-08-08T04:56:19Z pjb: kristof: the thing is that it's just easier and safer to do in lisp, where all the problem are solved since a long time or avoided from the beginning.
2015-08-08T04:56:47Z autodidact: hm
2015-08-08T04:56:48Z White_Flame: pjb: yeah, or my explanation in the scrollback, of shelling out to a compiler & dynamically linking in the result
2015-08-08T04:57:53Z kristof: pjb: I disagree. By generating LLVM IR or calling GCC entirely, you have left the confines of the language.
2015-08-08T04:58:19Z pjb: kristof: agreed.
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2015-08-08T05:00:16Z pjb: but that's what they do constantly, python would be nothing without the C libraries.  Android uses 30% of external C libraries (counting .c files vs. .java files).
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2015-08-08T05:01:46Z pjb: Well, python would be what cl-python is, without the C libraries…  I think my case is very well proven. :-)
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2015-08-08T05:02:00Z White_Flame: I'm not talking about bringing in prebuild C libs, but generating  C code, shelling out to a compiler, and linking in, using the .so as a quick transient format
2015-08-08T05:02:54Z White_Flame: for actual runtime code generation
2015-08-08T05:03:26Z White_Flame: I thought ECL or one of those actually had this type of process
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2015-08-08T05:03:42Z White_Flame: if not now, then at some point in the past
2015-08-08T05:04:34Z pjb: kristof: in C, you can compute an approximate numerical derivate function. Just compute the derivative for each value.
2015-08-08T05:04:41Z pjb: or do it lazily.
2015-08-08T05:04:51Z pjb: But we agree it's a dirty half-solution.
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2015-08-08T05:05:34Z autodidact: oh, i see now what you mean by shelling it out
2015-08-08T05:05:44Z autodidact: that seems like the worst posible solution though no
2015-08-08T05:05:50Z pjb: On the other hand, and a lot of systems just do that to avoid the complexities of C/C++, etc, you could process the binary code of the function, extract back a symbolic expression, and compute the derivative of that, and then compile it back to a binary function blob.
2015-08-08T05:05:52Z autodidact: possible, even
2015-08-08T05:05:54Z White_Flame: basically ;)
2015-08-08T05:06:03Z White_Flame: has a lot of environmental foo to set up
2015-08-08T05:06:25Z pjb: But of course, you've traded a lot of complexity for the general solution…
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2015-08-08T05:06:51Z White_Flame: pjb: try to do that with a system which has custom bignums or soft-floats
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2015-08-08T05:08:04Z pjb: Otherwise, it's easy enough to implement the  interpreter pattern  in C, so that you can still perform symbolic function processing.
2015-08-08T05:08:18Z pjb: White_Flame: I definitely not said it was simple :-)
2015-08-08T05:08:22Z White_Flame: heh
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2015-08-08T05:08:47Z pjb: But I'm saying that this is still an approach used in practice, if you're to believe recent announces.
2015-08-08T05:08:56Z kristof: I refuse to believe it
2015-08-08T05:08:59Z pjb: Perhaps there's some hype to it.
2015-08-08T05:09:22Z White_Flame: and lots and lots of stirngs and conditions attache
2015-08-08T05:09:24Z White_Flame: +d
2015-08-08T05:09:59Z pjb: kristof: White_Flame: http://www2.in.tum.de/bib/files/sepp11precise.pdf
2015-08-08T05:10:10Z pjb: http://stevehanov.ca/cs842_project.pdf
2015-08-08T05:10:11Z pjb: etc.
2015-08-08T05:10:20Z pjb: http://www.veracode.com/products/static-analysis-sast/binary-code-analysis
2015-08-08T05:10:50Z White_Flame: right, and just at a glance I can tell it's about stuff that maps well to register-sized, cpu-instruction-supported math operations
2015-08-08T05:10:52Z kristof: pjb: I would not bag on C++ too much. The combination of object-oriented programming, RAII, and operator overloading makes this quite possible in C++. Verbose, but possible, and certainly not as horrifyingly dirty as the `solutions' in C.
2015-08-08T05:11:26Z White_Flame: if you don't have a 1-to-1 mapping, and are doing weird transcendental math optimizations, etc, rederiving the original algorithmic intent is very, very hard
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2015-08-08T05:12:23Z White_Flame: binary reverse engineering is kinda my thing
2015-08-08T05:12:33Z kristof: pjb: RE the linked papers, it should be criminal to waste this much money (probably DARPA or NIS money) on something like this
2015-08-08T05:12:38Z White_Flame: though more focused on smaller systems without fixed ABIs
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2015-08-08T05:13:14Z pjb: There was also recently an annouce about graphic algorithms, taking the binary and converting it into GPU code automatically.
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2015-08-08T05:13:21Z kristof: Analyzing the compiled binary from a low level trying to get high level information is like studying gravity by dropping clocks and examining the pieces.
2015-08-08T05:13:51Z White_Flame: kristof: not necessarily.  Low-level to low-level transformation is certainly possible, like CPU math to GPU math transformation
2015-08-08T05:14:00Z pjb: kristof: agreed. It's defintely digging new holes to fill old holes.
2015-08-08T05:14:03Z kristof: It is the path of most resistance.
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2015-08-08T05:14:18Z White_Flame: however, in terms of derivatives, symbolic calculus, etc, _that_ stuff is hard to extract as it's a higher level than what the CPU itself expresses in its immediate behavior
2015-08-08T05:14:19Z pjb: kristof: in the mean time, hole digging technology imprives.
2015-08-08T05:14:21Z pjb: improves.
2015-08-08T05:14:22Z kristof: White_Flame: Why don't you just use a language like Fortress which is designed to be highly parallel from the start?
2015-08-08T05:14:24Z pjb: Let's steal it!
2015-08-08T05:14:39Z White_Flame: kristof: because many time's you're not working "from the start"
2015-08-08T05:14:42Z White_Flame: -'
2015-08-08T05:14:55Z pjb: Ie. the difference between x86 and CL, is that x86 has a formal specification; not CL (yet).
2015-08-08T05:15:01Z kristof: That is the root of the problem, not the justification
2015-08-08T05:15:14Z pjb: Let's write a formal specification of CL (or a nice subset/superset thereof).
2015-08-08T05:15:36Z White_Flame: kristof: yes, the "not invented here" to "not invented today" spectrum is theoretically beneficial, but at a much higher time cost
2015-08-08T05:15:43Z pjb: kristof: the reason why fortress doesn't work, is because programmers don't think in paralle.
2015-08-08T05:15:48Z kristof: pjb: I am wary of formal specifications for general languages. For non turing complete languages like coq, there are good reasons to. For languages like C and CL, you should just be a "good programmer".
2015-08-08T05:15:58Z pjb: I mean, our logical conscious thinking is based on serial logic.
2015-08-08T05:16:29Z pjb: We would have to invent a new mathematics, and teach it to toddlers to make a new generation of people able to think symbolically on parallel problems.
2015-08-08T05:16:39Z kristof: That is not true. Our logical conscious is based on relations, which look sequential but can have parallel components.
2015-08-08T05:16:49Z White_Flame: pjb: matrix math and such does touch upon that
2015-08-08T05:17:03Z White_Flame: and project planning
2015-08-08T05:17:04Z kristof: The norm of a vector: Sum the (square of (every element in a vector))
2015-08-08T05:17:18Z White_Flame: industrial engineering
2015-08-08T05:17:26Z White_Flame: logistics
2015-08-08T05:17:30Z White_Flame: lots of parallel problems in the world
2015-08-08T05:17:47Z White_Flame: but not necessarily at the primary school level :)
2015-08-08T05:17:51Z pjb: and there's also the question of cost.  That is, while you have bottlenecks you cannot work in parallel.  So until we have processors with each word of memory, there's little point.
2015-08-08T05:18:10Z kristof: (reduce #'+ (mapcar (lambda (x) (* x x)) vec))
2015-08-08T05:18:11Z White_Flame: yeah, venray architecture ftw
2015-08-08T05:18:16Z pjb: What's strange is that we're moving toward that progressively, instead of jumping directly to it, like with eg. the connection machine.
2015-08-08T05:18:46Z pjb: (reduce '+ (parmap (lambda (x) (* x x)) vec))
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2015-08-08T05:19:01Z pjb: but it's no help since you have the RAM-CPU bottleneck.
2015-08-08T05:19:13Z kristof: there is no solution to the RAM-CPU bottleneck.
2015-08-08T05:19:21Z White_Flame: the one company that does have it wants to license their tech to DRAM manufacturers instead of getting up the funding for it themselves.  It's a shame, and it'll never see the light of day imo
2015-08-08T05:19:30Z White_Flame: the put CPUs on DRAM dies
2015-08-08T05:19:33Z White_Flame: *they
2015-08-08T05:19:41Z White_Flame: single-cycle access to full cache lines
2015-08-08T05:20:10Z kristof: Isn't L2 already 4 cycle?
2015-08-08T05:20:30Z White_Flame: as in read 4096 bits of any part of the DRAM in a single cycle
2015-08-08T05:20:40Z White_Flame: with single-cycle contention with the other cores on the chip
2015-08-08T05:20:41Z kristof: Oh snap
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2015-08-08T05:20:58Z kristof: I'm sure there are substantial tradeoffs in there somewhere
2015-08-08T05:21:03Z White_Flame: the CPU is simple
2015-08-08T05:21:10Z kristof: Therein lies the tradeoff :)
2015-08-08T05:21:11Z White_Flame: because it has to exist in DRAM process
2015-08-08T05:21:19Z kristof: I like my ALUs
2015-08-08T05:21:27Z White_Flame: but it's 64-bit, efficient, etc, with ridiculous memory bandwidth
2015-08-08T05:21:49Z White_Flame: and ideal for problems that you throw thousands of cores at
2015-08-08T05:22:10Z White_Flame: crying shame that they're waiting for a buyer
2015-08-08T05:22:12Z kristof: I'm not sure why you say that it'll never see the light of day. HPC vendors will eat that up.
2015-08-08T05:22:22Z White_Flame: because no DRAM manufacturer is going to branch out like that
2015-08-08T05:22:25Z pjb: one could argue indeed that the CPUs of the connection machine were too simple.
2015-08-08T05:22:34Z pjb: In GPU they're slightly more complex.
2015-08-08T05:22:54Z pjb: In the blue brain project, they start to be good. http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/
2015-08-08T05:23:21Z White_Flame: http://venraytechnology.com/Implementations.htm
2015-08-08T05:23:23Z kristof: I read something funky about how Richard Feynmann used differential equations to derive a word size two bits smaller than what was derived from the discrete analysis
2015-08-08T05:23:26Z pjb: Perhaps what we'd want, is to have a programming language that would target the whole internet instead of just one computer.
2015-08-08T05:23:30Z kristof: (For the connection machine)
2015-08-08T05:24:34Z kristof: pjb: You mean distribute the computation? The internet is too feudal for that. As long as electricty costs money, it would not fly.
2015-08-08T05:24:50Z kristof: pjb: Have you heard of urbit? They have the same idea.
2015-08-08T05:25:01Z kristof: Not that they are going anywhere with it. Vaporware.
2015-08-08T05:25:11Z pjb: kristof: if you provide a nice screen saver with it, that might work ;-)
2015-08-08T05:25:30Z White_Flame: pjb: distributed code with high latency has very few use cases
2015-08-08T05:25:54Z kristof: That is not true
2015-08-08T05:26:12Z kristof: It's an adequate substitute for hpc when you cannot afford the hardware.
2015-08-08T05:26:18Z kristof: See: volunteer gene folding
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2015-08-08T05:26:40Z Bike: You mean protein folding?
2015-08-08T05:26:44Z White_Flame: I didn't say there are zero cases
2015-08-08T05:26:49Z Bike: Is there one for gene quaternary structure? that sounds neat, actually
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2015-08-08T05:30:51Z kristof: I don't know why I said gene.
2015-08-08T05:31:22Z kristof: Protein tertiary and quaternary structure computation is what I meant :P
2015-08-08T05:31:53Z Bike: DNA has structure too, it's just a bit less popular
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2015-08-08T13:23:28Z hegel: morning!
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2015-08-08T13:58:13Z jewel: Can I provide a custom encoding function for cl-json to encode a struct?
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2015-08-08T14:01:31Z Adlai: jewel: you could try an encode-json method on http://l1sp.org/cl/structure-object
2015-08-08T14:04:56Z Guthur: jewel: cl-json:encode-json is a generic-function so you can specialize it on any class
2015-08-08T14:05:14Z Guthur: oh struct
2015-08-08T14:05:32Z Guthur: yeah, as above
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2015-08-08T14:14:50Z jewel: thanks, that's working
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2015-08-08T14:38:20Z jason_m: pjb: thanks for the debug instructions earlier, working like a charm
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2015-08-08T14:55:30Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-08-08T15:06:35Z samebchase: Good evening beach!
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2015-08-08T15:43:01Z drmeister: Hello everyone
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2015-08-08T15:43:55Z jackdaniel: geetings all (:
2015-08-08T15:44:05Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
2015-08-08T15:44:33Z oleo: hellooo
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2015-08-08T15:58:47Z drmeister: beach: Here's an example from Cclasp that generates T or NIL and then compares the result to NIL that I think would be optimized by your latest optimization.
2015-08-08T15:59:03Z drmeister: I've circled the HIR with an oval
2015-08-08T15:59:27Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/5QLTEPNF/mir%20copy.pdf
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2015-08-08T17:00:03Z sigjuice: is there a way to see changelogs for individual packages that changed during a quicklisp update?
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2015-08-08T17:25:46Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
2015-08-08T17:26:40Z JokesOnYou77: I'd like to create a function with the following behavior and I'm having a lot of trouble:  (my-func ('func1
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2015-08-08T17:27:53Z JokesOnYou77: I'd like to create a function with the following behavior and I'm having a lot of trouble:  (my-func ('func1  'func2  'func3) atom) => (func1 (func2 func3 atom)))
2015-08-08T17:28:17Z JokesOnYou77: sorry,  (func1 (func2 (func3 atom)))
2015-08-08T17:28:24Z nyef: As a function, and not a macro?
2015-08-08T17:28:46Z JokesOnYou77: Well, I figure I should try function first.
2015-08-08T17:29:16Z nyef: That's fair. Once you have the source transform done as a function it's easy to wrap a macro around that, while preserving the original function.
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2015-08-08T17:30:40Z JokesOnYou77: It does seem like using an arbitrary number of functions in the input will require a macro to build the tree, but I thought there might be some clever way that I couldn't see.
2015-08-08T17:30:59Z nyef: (defun my-func (arg1 arg2) (if arg1 (list (car arg1) (my-func (cdr arg1) arg2)) arg2))
2015-08-08T17:31:26Z nyef: Should be pretty close.
2015-08-08T17:31:38Z nyef: (my-func '(func1 func2 func3) 'atom)
2015-08-08T17:33:11Z nyef: Does that work for you?
2015-08-08T17:37:12Z JokesOnYou77: nyef, Beautiful!  Perfect dfs traversal.
2015-08-08T17:37:59Z nyef: Just as long as you don't need "dfs return path". (-:
2015-08-08T17:38:13Z JokesOnYou77: no lol
2015-08-08T17:38:16Z JokesOnYou77: thank you :)
2015-08-08T17:38:34Z nyef: (That was fun, even if I didn't manage to cram all of the jokes that I wanted to into that one function definition...)
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2015-08-08T17:41:17Z JokesOnYou77: And If I replace LIST with FUNCALL I get the result as well :)
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2015-08-08T18:09:33Z goglosh: So... I should use LOOP instead of recursion whenever I can?
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2015-08-08T18:11:50Z nyef: goglosh: No, you should exercise judgement as to which structure to use for each purpose.
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2015-08-08T18:12:17Z nyef: Some things are very naturally expressed as recursion, for example.
2015-08-08T18:12:26Z jackdaniel revalidates ECL manual
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2015-08-08T18:43:19Z RedNifre: I used Scheme a bit several years ago and want to try Lisp again. However, I don't understand why there are so many Lisps: Scheme, Clojure, Racket, None... they all look interesting, but I don't see much difference. I thought Lisp was so flexible that you could implement every dialect in every other dialect? Which one to use when?
2015-08-08T18:44:03Z jackdaniel:  RedNifre this is channel about common-lisp, so we advise you to use common-lisp ;-)
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2015-08-08T18:44:33Z Bike: this channel is about common lisp specifically. as for the question, you can implement python in C but people still use both, so you may want to rephrase
2015-08-08T18:45:18Z jackdaniel: CL and Scheme both have standard and they evolve from different base assumptions
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2015-08-08T18:46:21Z jackdaniel: clojure is attempt to improve lisp - such attempts split community for those, who agree, and those, who disagree with his objective meaning of *improvement*
2015-08-08T18:46:36Z RedNifre: Well, you can implement python in C in such a way that you can have a String in your C program that contains a python program (with all sort of escape sequences), but I thought with Lisps the language itself would be flexible i.e. you could write clojure style in common lisp without having a string that contains the clojure code. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
2015-08-08T18:46:59Z Quadrescence: RedNifre, you can sort of do that
2015-08-08T18:47:45Z jackdaniel: RedNifre: take scheme - it has one namespace (called Lisp-1), while CL has multiple of them (Lisp-n) - both approaches are perfectly valid, but doesn't work well together
2015-08-08T18:47:55Z Quadrescence: RedNifre, you can get pretty far but there are unique things in each implementations' runtimes and evaluation semantics that make it hard to do a true to the bone emulation
2015-08-08T18:48:00Z RedNifre: if I can sort of do that, would I even have to learn multiple lisps? Or could I pick one at random and cherry-pick some features from other lisps and add them to the one I chose?
2015-08-08T18:48:03Z jackdaniel: clojure has immutable data types - how would it work, if they could be mutated?
2015-08-08T18:48:31Z Quadrescence: RedNifre, just learn any dialect. you'll begin to know what you don't know, and you can pick and choose from there :)
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2015-08-08T18:48:55Z RedNifre: Quadrescence that sounds like a plan :)
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2015-08-08T18:49:47Z jackdaniel: and regarding similarities - dialects of lisp are as similar as C# and Java - seems similar but not quite
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2015-08-08T18:56:07Z RedNifre: Hm. I like Ruby for small scripts because the language lets you do everything you want and I like Haskell for larger things because it is very strict and forces you to think things through. Which Lisp(s) might be the right one(s) for me? Why do you prefer Common Lisp over the other ones?
2015-08-08T18:57:23Z jackdaniel: CL is suitable for both small and big applications, small ones esp if you use multicall binaries or interpreter
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2015-08-08T19:12:18Z atgnag: I can't figure out why this function doesn't work. http://pastie.org/10338020
2015-08-08T19:12:45Z atgnag: (constrain-cond 3 -50 50) (as defined in the above paste) returns 50.
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2015-08-08T19:13:53Z nyef: atgnag: 3 is less than 50.
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2015-08-08T19:14:48Z nyef: atgnag: Also, the obligatory "your indent and spacing is terrible, please learn how to do it properly."
2015-08-08T19:14:52Z RedNifre: atgnag you mixed up max and min, it should be defun constrain-cond (x min max)
2015-08-08T19:15:02Z atgnag: nyef: I know. Wait… I think I mixed up my parameters.
2015-08-08T19:15:46Z atgnag: All right. Apparently I'm retarded.
2015-08-08T19:15:53Z RedNifre: you could add another cond, e.g. ((< max min) CRASH_HORRIBLY )
2015-08-08T19:16:00Z atgnag: nyef: It's not from a source file, it's from a repl.
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2015-08-08T19:24:31Z JokesOnYou77: nyef: Got my original method to work, but your recursion is much clearer to read: (defun fxn3 (funcs val)  (reduce (lambda (x y) (funcall x y))  funcs initial-value val :from-end t))
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2015-08-08T19:49:07Z atgnag: Anyone else kinda wish pprint aligned (cond) conditions?
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2015-08-08T19:53:05Z nyef: atgnag: You know that default pprinter behavior can be implementation-dependent, right?
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2015-08-08T19:53:15Z nyef: atgnag: And that it is user-customizable?
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2015-08-08T19:55:48Z atgnag: nyef: I'm not surprised it's implementation-dependent. I'm using sbcl.
2015-08-08T19:56:09Z atgnag: I'm curious how to customize it, but suspect it's beyond my ability atm.
2015-08-08T19:57:05Z nyef: There's some documentation out there, but it can get a bit tricky, apparently. Not part of the system that I've delved too deeply into, I'm afraid.
2015-08-08T19:58:01Z atgnag: Maybe I'll wait until I finish this book then.
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2015-08-08T20:17:04Z axion: how do i tell if an implementation uses iso-8859-1 or unicode for its character coding?
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2015-08-08T20:23:05Z H4ns: axion: you can't in a portable fashion, as character encodings are not specified by the standard.  your best bet is babel or flexi-streams.
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2015-08-08T20:24:27Z axion: ok thanks
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2015-08-08T20:26:51Z atgnag: So, an exercise in my book is to implement rock-paper-scissors. I'm tempted to write nine conditionals, but I'm pretty sure that's not how I'm supposed to do it.
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2015-08-08T20:27:17Z atgnag: I'm in a chapter about the OR and AND functions, but I don't see how that's relevant here.
2015-08-08T20:28:31Z nyef: ... Why would you need more than three conditionals?
2015-08-08T20:28:47Z nyef: (Four, if you count the default case.)
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2015-08-08T20:29:22Z atgnag: Well, there's 3*3 possible combinations.
2015-08-08T20:29:41Z atgnag: Though, I guess it's easy to test for a tie, so that can reduce it to 6.
2015-08-08T20:29:49Z atgnag: *7
2015-08-08T20:30:28Z nyef: Okay, right, ties. Five.
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2015-08-08T20:31:12Z nyef: ... Oh, right, OR and AND. Three.
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2015-08-08T20:31:51Z atgnag: How is OR and AND involved though?
2015-08-08T20:33:43Z nyef: You have three cases: A win, a loss, or a draw.
2015-08-08T20:34:31Z nyef: Make a chart of when each case would be true.
2015-08-08T20:34:52Z nyef: Given OR and AND, how can you express the chart for each case?
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2015-08-08T20:37:50Z Bike: rock paper scissors as trivalent truth table. huh
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2015-08-08T20:45:16Z atgnag: I've done it, but I feel like it could be more concise. http://pastie.org/pastes/10338260/text
2015-08-08T20:46:19Z atgnag: So, can this be refactored or not?
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2015-08-08T21:00:54Z Bike: atgnag: you could put first-wins, then tie, then second-wins, so then second-win could just be a default
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2015-08-08T21:04:27Z atgnag: Oh yeah, that's true.
2015-08-08T21:04:29Z jason_m: that's what i was going to suggest...you could eliminate the second-wins test and save a couple lines
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2015-08-08T21:05:06Z atgnag: Oh well.
2015-08-08T21:05:10Z jason_m: and since you're dealing with symbols, i think you can save yourself some keystrokes by using eql instead of equal
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2015-08-08T21:06:45Z atgnag: I'll keep that in mind next time.
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2015-08-08T21:14:03Z nyef: With symbols, you can use EQ, but if you're going to go that far then please make sure to study the difference between EQ, EQL, EQUAL, and EQUALP.
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2015-08-08T21:15:18Z edgar-rft: atgnag: here is a and/or version: <http://paste.lisp.org/display/153276>
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2015-08-08T21:17:17Z edgar-rft: ...but I think you version is more robust because my version says 'second-wins if X or Y are not symbols.
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2015-08-08T21:19:42Z Bike: that's just kind of obfuscating
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2015-08-08T21:20:05Z edgar-rft: but the task was using AND/OR, not COND
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2015-08-08T21:27:41Z atgnag: Thanks.
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2015-08-08T21:32:06Z edgar-rft: atgnag: Bike is right, your COND version is much better readable and easier to understand, what is more important than writing strange code only because somoeone has thougt up a  weird exercise. I only wanted to show that it's really possible with AND/OR.
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2015-08-08T21:53:44Z atgnag: All right. Thanks.
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2015-08-08T23:41:49Z pjb: atgnag: there are extensions to rock paper scissors.
2015-08-08T23:42:11Z pjb: For example, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Gun, Dynamite, Nuke, Lightning, Devil, Dragon, Alien, Water, Bowl, Air, Moon, Sponge, Wolf, Cockroach, Tree, Man, Woman, Monkey, Snake, Axe, Fire, Sun.
2015-08-08T23:42:29Z pjb: Therefore writing conditionnals wouldn't work well…
2015-08-08T23:42:36Z pjb: Check: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/rpsls/index.html
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2015-08-08T23:49:45Z pjb: atgnag:  at the very least, you should abstract away the comparison function!  http://paste.lisp.org/+3A9O/1
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2015-08-08T23:55:44Z pjb: atgnag: notice how you could change http://paste.lisp.org/+3A9O/1 to use a variable instead of the quoted list in rps-lessp, and how you could bind it to the list for rpsls or the 25 or 101 items one.
2015-08-08T23:56:20Z pjb: atgnag: introducing the rps-lessp abstraction makes your code: 1- smaller, 2- easier to undersand, 3- more modifiable, maintanble and adaptable.
2015-08-08T23:56:34Z pjb: atgnag: always introduce abstractions.  Read sicp.
2015-08-08T23:58:26Z protist: I'm playing with the J programming language, and I think this is cool: http://pastebin.com/bHLsLEic
2015-08-08T23:58:34Z protist: it is on topic haha
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2015-08-09T00:02:15Z atgnag: pjb: I'll read it after my current book.
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2015-08-09T00:34:36Z pjb: protist: yes. I use: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list  '(5 4 3))
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2015-08-09T00:35:18Z pjb: but the embedded notation is good too. It's just a little inconvenient for things like (1 #2=(2 3) #2#).
2015-08-09T00:35:39Z pjb: (That said, by draw-list doesn't deal with shared or circular structures yet, it's in project).
2015-08-09T00:36:05Z protist: pjb: cool :)
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2015-08-09T02:45:39Z akkad: is #| #| used for multiline comments?
2015-08-09T02:45:53Z akkad: #| |# rather
2015-08-09T02:46:22Z nyef: It can be.
2015-08-09T02:46:45Z nyef: Another pattern is to have each line of the comment prefixed with some number of semicolons.
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2015-08-09T02:57:36Z akkad: yeah just found a big block of it in the AONT code and was curious
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2015-08-09T03:27:13Z drmeister: Would it be legal sematically to Just-In-Time compile DEFUN forms entered at the REPL or loaded via LOAD?
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2015-08-09T03:31:11Z drmeister: I was planning to switch to a new LLVM JIT API called ORC (On-Request-Compilation) that leaves LLVM functions uncompiled until the functions within them are called.
2015-08-09T03:31:19Z drmeister: It occurred to me "why stop there?"
2015-08-09T03:31:50Z drmeister: Why not create a stub that left the DEFUN form as a form until the function is first called and then compile it.
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2015-08-09T03:32:53Z drmeister: I guess there's a lot of other stuff to deal with other than just DEFUN.   DEFMETHOD, DEFCLASS DEFwhatever generates code.
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2015-08-09T03:33:49Z drmeister: But the main question is "would it be correct to do this"?
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2015-08-09T03:37:09Z Bike: well cl:compile and stuff have to minimally compile things, don't they.
2015-08-09T03:37:23Z Bike: but also, why bother? why would you do that for every function?
2015-08-09T03:38:39Z pillton: Does anyone know why the concept of "Safe Code" was introduced?
2015-08-09T03:38:50Z autodidact: ?
2015-08-09T03:39:30Z Bike: because often times it's nice to know that something signals an error instead of doing some undefined motherfuckery.
2015-08-09T03:39:40Z pillton: It seems to contradict 1.4.4.3 though.
2015-08-09T03:39:50Z pillton: "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
2015-08-09T03:40:38Z Bike: that's uh, that's what the "except" is for, no?
2015-08-09T03:40:51Z pillton: clhs aref
2015-08-09T03:40:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2015-08-09T03:41:04Z pillton: There are no exceptions for AREF.
2015-08-09T03:41:51Z pillton: I find it bizarre.
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2015-08-09T03:58:14Z drmeister: Bike: The multisecond startup time that Clasp experiences is due to compilation.
2015-08-09T03:59:11Z drmeister: It's CLOS code and really, the compilation should have been done at compile time and not load time.
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2015-08-09T04:08:30Z Bike: so... you're saying just in time compilation is what you should avoid...?
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2015-08-09T04:27:28Z drmeister: I'm saying I think the proper way to solve the problem is to figure out why compilation is happening at load time and do whatever ECL does to compile everything at compile time (it's the ECL code that does this).
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2015-08-09T04:32:54Z Bike: so what does that have to do with ORC at all.
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2015-08-09T05:36:13Z blt: what's a good library to use for a simple 2d game?
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2015-08-09T05:42:13Z Oladon: blt: check out http://lispgames.org/ :)
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2015-08-09T05:50:44Z blt: Oladon: cool
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2015-08-09T11:33:40Z knobo: is this gethash atomic? (gethash 1 *h* (setf (gethash 1 *h*) (initial-value))))
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2015-08-09T11:34:00Z knobo: or can I end up with initial-value called two times?
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2015-08-09T11:39:00Z jackdaniel: knobo: arguments to function get evaluated from left to right, so setf will always be evaluated
2015-08-09T11:39:11Z jackdaniel: and initial-value, even if key "1" is present in *h*
2015-08-09T11:39:16Z knobo: right..
2015-08-09T11:39:36Z knobo: I should have known that..
2015-08-09T11:39:51Z jackdaniel: alexandria has ensure-hash as far as I recall
2015-08-09T11:39:59Z knobo: great!
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2015-08-09T11:40:11Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-08-09T11:40:43Z jackdaniel: ensure-gethash that is°
2015-08-09T11:42:16Z knobo: And it looks like it works :)
2015-08-09T11:43:06Z knobo: But I don't understand that it can be thread safe.
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2015-08-09T11:43:26Z knobo: I'll have to fix that myself then.
2015-08-09T11:44:09Z pjb: There's no reason for it to be "thread-safe".
2015-08-09T11:46:33Z knobo: pjb: why?
2015-08-09T11:48:00Z nyef: The standard doesn't call for threads, therefore doesn't call for "thread-safety" anywhere.
2015-08-09T11:48:44Z knobo: ah, right.
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2015-08-09T11:56:50Z pjb: Even if some implementation have thread safe hash tables, (meaning that you can call gethash or (setf gethash) on the same table from different thread without risk of botching the table, (gethash 1 *h* (setf (gethash 1 *h*) (initial-value))) contains two calls, one to (setf gethash) and one to gethash, and anything can occur between those two calls.
2015-08-09T11:57:11Z pjb: The semantics of a functionc all in lisp is to evaluate the arguments first, and to call the function next.
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2015-08-09T11:58:40Z pjb: So at any point marked by #||# in: (gethash #||# 1 #||# *h* #||# (setf (gethash #||# 1 #||# *h*) #||# (initial-value) #||#) #||#) you could switch to another thread.
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2015-08-09T11:59:01Z pjb: (and I'm not even saying, if you have multiple cores).
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2015-08-09T12:00:59Z nyef: And it's actually worse than that, because you can have the thread-switch land in the middle of calling INITIAL-VALUE or similar.
2015-08-09T12:01:58Z pjb: right.
2015-08-09T12:02:18Z jackdaniel: so you have to pick your locks carefully ;-)
2015-08-09T12:03:27Z nyef: jackdaniel: That's a fairly horrifying concept, a thread being able to say "I've been waiting too long" and take an in-use lock anyway.
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2015-08-09T12:04:00Z jackdaniel: haha :D
2015-08-09T12:04:05Z jackdaniel: sounds very humanish :-)
2015-08-09T12:04:21Z nyef: I think there's actually something like that in the Linux kernel somewhere.
2015-08-09T12:04:39Z pjb: Other threads should be able to shout at it and put it back in line.
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2015-08-09T12:14:49Z otwieracz: hey!
2015-08-09T12:15:33Z otwieracz: Is there any convinient way of checking number of parameters function accepts?
2015-08-09T12:16:36Z otwieracz: Function accepting no arguments has to be passed to my code – and I want to make an assertion to avoid weird errors later.
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2015-08-09T12:21:07Z nyef: otwieracz: Sorry, no: Function types are not permitted to be used for discrimination.
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2015-08-09T12:21:46Z jackdaniel: there is function-lambda-list as extension for a few lisps
2015-08-09T12:22:27Z jackdaniel: but that's neither desired nor portable
2015-08-09T12:22:49Z nyef: No convenient-and-reliable-and-portable mechanism... And would it even work on a bare function object?
2015-08-09T12:23:03Z jackdaniel: exactly
2015-08-09T12:23:46Z jackdaniel: if you're not afraid of calling function, you could call it without arguments and handle condition
2015-08-09T12:24:11Z nyef: Also not portably reliable.
2015-08-09T12:24:25Z jackdaniel: how so?
2015-08-09T12:24:35Z nyef: What condition type is used?
2015-08-09T12:24:54Z jackdaniel: T :D but yes, you're right
2015-08-09T12:25:11Z nyef: How do you know that it's for the outer function, and not for a nested call?
2015-08-09T12:26:02Z jackdaniel: one could define macro ala defun but without arguments lambda-list and store names in separate hashtable
2015-08-09T12:26:23Z jackdaniel: verifying if function was declared "one and the proper way" would be just ht lookup
2015-08-09T12:26:37Z nyef: LAMBDA, FLET, LABELS.
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2015-08-09T12:27:08Z nyef: The nasty one of that set is LAMBDA.
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2015-08-09T12:28:10Z nyef: And the nearest convenience store is miles away from redefining DEFUN. d-:
2015-08-09T12:28:33Z jackdaniel: (:
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2015-08-09T12:35:04Z pjb: nyef: program-error
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2015-08-09T12:35:49Z nyef: That's about what I figured. Useless for discriminating JUST the invalid-number-of-arguments condition.
2015-08-09T12:37:26Z pjb: in safe calls. 3.5.1.2 Too Few Arguments
2015-08-09T12:37:37Z pjb: invalid-number-of-arguments shall be a program-error.
2015-08-09T12:38:13Z nyef: clhs 3.5.1.2
2015-08-09T12:38:13Z specbot: Too Few Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eab.htm
2015-08-09T12:38:35Z pjb: nyef: about redefining defun, yes, but you need a database of the CL definitions first, unless you want to recompile your implementation.
2015-08-09T12:38:58Z nyef: Yes, but there's no given mechanism to distinguish it from the other PROGRAM-ERROR conditions.
2015-08-09T12:39:10Z nyef: Heh. Not JUST the CL definitions.
2015-08-09T12:39:34Z pjb: you can recompile all the libraries with your defun. I'd advise you to do so :-)
2015-08-09T12:40:18Z nyef: I guess we can push :my-special-defun to *features-affecting-fasl-format*... (-:
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2015-08-09T12:47:11Z jason_m: Is there a way from within quicklisp to remove / archive old versions of systems?
2015-08-09T12:48:03Z XachX: jason_m: ql-dist:clean on the dust object
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2015-08-09T12:50:21Z Xach: "dist" object
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2015-08-09T12:50:55Z nyef: Xach: I don't know, either version makes its own kind of sense. (-:
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2015-08-09T12:53:04Z otwieracz: OK, so forget about this.
2015-08-09T12:55:13Z jason_m: thanks Xach
2015-08-09T12:55:28Z knobo: 'or does not evaluate arguments unless it has to, right?
2015-08-09T12:55:49Z knobo: So I could do this? http://pastebin.com/WBGnNZyt
2015-08-09T12:55:50Z Xach: ql-dist::(clean (dist "quicklisp")) in sbcl
2015-08-09T12:56:17Z Xach: I am going to update update-dist to do that automatically sometime. I always meant to, but there were some bugs that made me afraid to delete directory trees.
2015-08-09T12:56:38Z Xach: No I am Daredevil, the Man Without Fear
2015-08-09T12:58:16Z jackdaniel: knobo: lock whole operation, with first gethash as well, and all operation on this ht
2015-08-09T12:59:02Z jackdaniel: if you want to be threadsafe - ensure-gethash is still valid option if you use locks
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2015-08-09T13:02:20Z jason_m: Xach: I've never used something like that second syntax.  Does that amount to "run this form in that package"?
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2015-08-09T13:02:51Z XachX: jason_m: yes. Works in a few Lisps.
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2015-08-09T13:03:35Z nyef: jason_m: Note that it may not work in all implementations.
2015-08-09T13:04:43Z jason_m: I'll keep it between me, sbcl, and quicklisp
2015-08-09T13:06:46Z knobo: jackdaniel: ok, thanx
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2015-08-09T14:20:52Z Xach: jason_m: it also works in allegro
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2015-08-09T15:42:50Z knobo: Are there any json parsing libraries that parses to a plist, and restricts which keys are allowed?
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2015-08-09T15:45:21Z nyef: That's... an interesting-specific set of requirements.
2015-08-09T15:46:22Z knobo: Yes, as I don't want to intern a million symbols sent by the user who wants to kill my server.
2015-08-09T15:48:22Z knobo: I could parse the json as an alist, and just use the strings, though.
2015-08-09T15:48:49Z nyef: Or as a hash table, though that doesn't represent duplicate keys usefully.
2015-08-09T15:49:04Z loke`: knobo: ST-JSON
2015-08-09T15:49:18Z loke`: knobo: it uses strings for keys
2015-08-09T15:49:32Z loke`: knobo: It's the only one I found that does so, so that's the one I use.
2015-08-09T15:49:47Z loke`: (when accepting random JSON from clients, you don't want to intern every key)
2015-08-09T15:49:52Z nyef: Mmm. I use ST-JSON, myself. Largely on the strength of its ability to represent everything in JSON as distinct CL types.
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2015-08-09T15:52:32Z nyef: And then I layered a binding construct over it. (json-bind (field-1 field-2 (field-3 "other_name")) ...) binds "field_1", "field_2", and "other_name" to field-1, field-2, and field-3 respectively.
2015-08-09T15:53:08Z nyef: And if any of them aren't in the object, it binds them to :UNSUPPLIED, and then I have FIELD-SUPPLIED-P to test for it.
2015-08-09T15:54:16Z nyef: I also have a (very similar) PARAMETER-BIND mechanism for dealing with Hunchentoot parameters.
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2015-08-09T15:54:37Z knobo: looks like I'll be using jonathan
2015-08-09T15:54:43Z knobo: can restrict keywords to read. (:keywords-to-read)
2015-08-09T15:55:17Z loke`: nyef: I do something like that for hunchentoot parameters. Here's my implementation of WITH-PARAMETERS: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/server.lisp#L165
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2015-08-09T15:57:00Z loke`: I do stuff like (with-checked-parameters ((value :name "val" :required t :allow-blank nil :type :integer)) ...)
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2015-08-09T15:59:38Z nyef: loke`: Mine requires that you specify the parameter list to use, which makes it a lot easier to write test cases.
2015-08-09T16:00:29Z nyef: Hrm. The checked parameters thing looks interesting, though. Thanks. (-:
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2015-08-09T16:01:01Z loke`: nyef: Yeah, the WITH-PARAMETERS one is old and is only still there because I have some old code still using it.
2015-08-09T16:01:16Z loke`: WITH-CHECKED-PARAMETERS is the more modern one :-)
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2015-08-09T17:26:35Z mrSpec: Hello! Is there any cl library to decode the ethernet, tcp frames from the pcap?
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2015-08-09T17:26:56Z mrSpec: I've found jarw-inet which should decode http headers, but all links are dead
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2015-08-09T17:46:31Z Oladon: mrSpec: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=common+lisp+pcap
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2015-08-09T17:47:55Z mrSpec: Oladon: Maybe I was not clear, sorry. I use plokami to decode the raw byte vector
2015-08-09T17:48:17Z mrSpec: Oladon: now I'd like to get eg. mac address
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2015-08-09T17:48:36Z Oladon: Ah. Have you checked if Drakma has anything you could use?
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2015-08-09T17:49:55Z nyef: Umm... You have an octet vector, and are trying to parse fixed-width binary data from it?
2015-08-09T17:50:20Z nyef: Fixed-width, fixed-position binary data, that is?
2015-08-09T17:50:41Z Dasyatid1: I think ey would prefer prebuilt protocol dissectors, not just DIY vector slicing.  Unfortunately I don't know of any off the top of my head.
2015-08-09T17:51:25Z Dasyatid1: Not that it's all that conceptually difficult to build with DIY vector slicing, but it can be a fair chunk of work.
2015-08-09T17:51:28Z nyef: I would tend towards evolving a macro set for declaring the protocol formats and whatnot.
2015-08-09T17:51:35Z nyef: Yeah, there's a chunk of work involved.
2015-08-09T17:51:57Z Dasyatid1: Well, sure, but there's too many of them.  But it depends on what you want to do.
2015-08-09T17:52:20Z Dasyatid1: Especially if you want to do things like flow reconstruction.
2015-08-09T17:52:51Z Dasyatid1: mrSpec: how many protocols are we looking at?  Are you trying to pull out specific stuff, or are you looking for something exhaustive and Wireshark-ish for general network traffic?
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2015-08-09T17:54:30Z mrSpec: nyef: yes, I'm thinking If I should start writing it ;)
2015-08-09T17:54:45Z mrSpec: Dasyatid1: not many
2015-08-09T17:55:07Z Dasyatid1: I'd guess custom is the way to go then, if there's nothing too obvious on the Web.
2015-08-09T17:55:08Z mrSpec: but I was wondering if anything is available as I cant find even easy mac address extractor.
2015-08-09T17:55:12Z nyef: Somewhere in my personal toolkit is a bunch of stuff for parsing out integers from octet vectors, creating displaced vectors, and the like.
2015-08-09T17:55:37Z Dasyatid1: MAC addresses are below the level where just about everything is fixed offsets, so that's "easy" already.
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2015-08-09T17:56:31Z pjb: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.fr/2012/07/lisp-hackers-luke-gorrie-his-eclm-video.html
2015-08-09T17:56:34Z Dasyatid1: Just look up the Ethernet format on the Web.  But I'm guessing you need to do TCP flow reconstruction as well, and that involves somewhat hairy glue.
2015-08-09T17:56:40Z pjb: teclo has a tcp implemented in cl
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2015-08-09T17:57:12Z mrSpec: oki, I'll look at his code
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2015-08-09T17:59:53Z axion: does anyone know if peter seibel ever hangs out here?
2015-08-09T18:01:39Z nyef: He does/did, but I don't see him here now.
2015-08-09T18:01:59Z nyef: minion: slitch?
2015-08-09T18:01:59Z minion: slitch: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/slitch
2015-08-09T18:02:21Z axion: aha what nick does he use?
2015-08-09T18:02:23Z nyef: mrSpec: slitch might be useful, or might not.
2015-08-09T18:03:09Z mrSpec: nyef: I've just found out the same  but as it's not in quicklisp… it doesnt sound good
2015-08-09T18:03:11Z mrSpec: thanks anyway
2015-08-09T18:03:33Z nyef: mrSpec: Well, it never did get completed, and was basically abandoned years before quicklisp started.
2015-08-09T18:03:54Z nyef: mrSpec: There's also a TCP stack in Mezzano, IIRC.
2015-08-09T18:04:52Z mrSpec: oki, thx!
2015-08-09T18:05:48Z nyef: Might be one in Movitz as well.
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2015-08-09T18:10:13Z nyef: axion: It might be "gigamonkey", but I've been offline and not paying attention enough that I'm no longer certain.
2015-08-09T18:10:24Z nyef: (Largely about the ending to the nick.)
2015-08-09T18:10:32Z nyef: Might be plural, for example.
2015-08-09T18:10:47Z Xach: gigamonkey does not join #lisp any more
2015-08-09T18:10:52Z nyef: Ah, okay.
2015-08-09T18:11:02Z nyef: Did he give a reason why?
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2015-08-09T18:13:35Z Xach: No
2015-08-09T18:16:03Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-08-09T18:16:09Z nyef: Is he still active otherwise?
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2015-08-09T18:39:37Z Xach: On twitter, yes
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2015-08-09T18:45:12Z pjb: axion: @petersiebel
2015-08-09T18:45:58Z pjb: https://twitter.com/PeterSiebel
2015-08-09T18:46:35Z jackdaniel: that dejavu feeling, when you see same question from "different" person
2015-08-09T18:47:12Z pjb: Actually, you want the lowercase one: https://twitter.com/peterseibel
2015-08-09T18:48:06Z nyef: Yes, that one looks a lot more likely.
2015-08-09T18:48:15Z pjb: Peter Seibel ‏@peterseibel Aug 7 It may well turn out that my one contribution to Twitter is an internal tool, Rage, that allows people to rant about whatever bothers them.
2015-08-09T18:48:23Z pjb: I thought that was what irc was about.
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2015-08-09T18:50:38Z axion: pjb: thanks. i sent him a message. trying to extend some code of his and i have a question only he'd be able to answer
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2015-08-09T20:16:50Z axion: well he wrote back already but is unsure how to do what i want due to him writing the code a decade ago :)
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2015-08-09T20:47:19Z k-stz never got an answer from kenny tilton on twitter
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2015-08-09T20:58:58Z Xach: k-stz: usenet would probably get a quick response
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2015-08-09T21:26:48Z Lokathor: so in common lisp, funtions and variables are in a different namespace, sorts?
2015-08-09T21:26:53Z Lokathor: sorta?*
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2015-08-09T21:28:27Z H4ns: Lokathor: not "sorta", they are.
2015-08-09T21:28:50Z Lokathor: strange to me, but okay
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2015-08-09T21:31:21Z Quadrescence: Lokathor, But they occupy the same value space, and that's all that matters!
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2015-08-09T21:31:52Z Lokathor: right, but if i assign + to a, i can't call (a 2 3) without special sugar
2015-08-09T21:32:12Z Quadrescence: well, (a 2 3) is special sugar to begin with
2015-08-09T21:32:16Z Lokathor: which is... not what i would normally expect
2015-08-09T21:32:20Z Quadrescence: and the special sugar you think of is just a function
2015-08-09T21:32:42Z Quadrescence: (funcall a 2 3), sounds easy to me
2015-08-09T21:33:00Z Quadrescence: Maybe you should think of (f a b) as special sugar for (funcall (function f) a b)
2015-08-09T21:33:18Z Lokathor: is that how it actually expands out?
2015-08-09T21:33:25Z Lokathor: hmm
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2015-08-09T21:33:26Z Quadrescence: Lokathor, you can think of it that way more or less
2015-08-09T21:33:43Z Quadrescence: It's of course not really true for special operators and macros, but that's a different thing anyway.
2015-08-09T21:34:07Z Quadrescence: but i don't think it's harmful to think of (f a b) as shorthand for the above
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2015-08-09T21:35:37Z Lokathor: and #'f is (function f)
2015-08-09T21:35:47Z Quadrescence: yes
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2015-08-09T21:36:12Z Quadrescence: where (function f) is "the value of the function called f"
2015-08-09T21:36:15Z Lokathor: so, in the (a 2 3) example, it's not (funcall a 2 3) it's actually (funcall #'a 2 3), right?
2015-08-09T21:36:28Z Quadrescence: yes, but don't get lost on the woods of weird syntax ;)
2015-08-09T21:36:35Z Quadrescence: lost in*
2015-08-09T21:37:48Z Lokathor: hmmm
2015-08-09T21:38:18Z Quadrescence: not to distract, but as a fun little thing, you can be a little bit clever, and notice that (funcall (function a) 2 3) is equivalent to (funcall (function funcall) (function a) 2 3)
2015-08-09T21:38:19Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-08-09T21:38:51Z Lokathor: that sounds.. clearly incorrect on some level
2015-08-09T21:39:01Z Lokathor: because that's just infinitely recursive
2015-08-09T21:39:17Z Quadrescence: nothing wrong with that ;)
2015-08-09T21:39:34Z Lokathor: rather, i believe that they are equivalent, but i don't believe that the system expands it out like that before actually performing the funcall
2015-08-09T21:39:42Z Quadrescence: Yes, that is correct.
2015-08-09T21:40:06Z Quadrescence: When it sees (f a b), internally it will make some structure that is equivalent to "Call the function named f on the arguments whose values are named A and B"
2015-08-09T21:40:19Z Quadrescence: And we just decided to encode that latter sentence back into lisp
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2015-08-09T22:13:39Z Xach: Ahoy Quadrescence
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2015-08-09T22:26:39Z White_Flame: Lokathor: (defvar a)  (setf (symbol-function 'a) #'+)  (a 1 2) -> 3
2015-08-09T22:27:02Z White_Flame: it's very, very rare to setf symbol-function
2015-08-09T22:27:19Z Lokathor: yeah that seems kinda obtuse
2015-08-09T22:27:42Z White_Flame: when you pass around dynamic behavior, it's usually explicitly going to be with holding a function/lambda in a variables _value_, then (funcall var ...params..) or (apply var ...params..)
2015-08-09T22:28:53Z White_Flame: (either that, or doing OO dispatch)
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2015-08-09T22:30:14Z Lokathor: i mean it makes a kind of sense
2015-08-09T22:30:45Z Lokathor: it's just not quite the same as how you do it in python, or haskell
2015-08-09T22:30:59Z White_Flame: right
2015-08-09T22:31:22Z Lokathor: which are the two previous langauges i have the most experience with where you'd pass around something like that
2015-08-09T22:31:43Z White_Flame: there's a bit of difference between establishing the  compiled-in "static" execution structures, vs passing around & calling "dynamic" execution structures
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2015-08-09T22:32:54Z White_Flame: but it's very handy to have the two separate namespaces.  (let ((list (calculate-my-list))) ... ) for one.
2015-08-09T22:33:14Z White_Flame: in Scheme, which has a single namespace for value & function, that would shadow the global LIST function
2015-08-09T22:33:31Z White_Flame: in CL, the variable LIST simply holds a value, not affecting the function LIST
2015-08-09T22:33:45Z White_Flame: so in scheme, vars are named "lst" and such, to try to avoid trampling function names
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2015-08-09T22:41:41Z ebrasca: is good idea implement  Turtle Geometry on common lisp?
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2015-08-09T22:46:30Z Lokathor: White_Flame, i'm not entirely convinced that your example is a sufficient reason to bother with two namespaces
2015-08-09T22:46:50Z White_Flame: Lokathor: right, that is a convenience, not a necessity
2015-08-09T22:46:52Z Lokathor: though it is a strong argument
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2015-08-09T22:47:39Z White_Flame: the two options in the var/function namespace choices are effectively equivalent in terms of overall possibilities
2015-08-09T22:48:23Z White_Flame: I think the Lisp-2 choice is more explicit, and less error-prone
2015-08-09T22:48:39Z White_Flame: Lisp-1 can certainly be more compact
2015-08-09T22:49:06Z Lokathor: i guess in the absence of clear compile time checks lisp-2 might be the better route
2015-08-09T22:49:56Z White_Flame: you probably mean "exhaustive compile time checks"?
2015-08-09T22:50:14Z White_Flame: because the Lisp2 does again tend to separate the compiled parts from the runtime parts
2015-08-09T22:50:46Z White_Flame: (for the vague defnitions those hold in a fully runtime system like Lisp :) )
2015-08-09T22:51:19Z Lokathor: yes, it's a lot fuzzier with lisp
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2015-08-09T22:57:46Z kristof: Lokathor: There are something like 7 namespaces.
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2015-08-09T23:00:28Z kristof: I like what Erik Naggum had to say about this. Having one namespace and then declaring hygienic macros necessary is like having all of your kitchenware out on the countertops and then worrying that they will all get dirty. It misses the point of having different cabinets in the first place.
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2015-08-09T23:01:02Z Lokathor: i'm not familiar with hygenic macros, or macros in general, at this point :P
2015-08-09T23:01:34Z White_Flame: basically, you can manipulate Lisp source code as plain lists, to generate/customize/wrap code
2015-08-09T23:02:05Z kristof: Writing a program that takes a program as input is just infinitely satisfying.
2015-08-09T23:02:13Z White_Flame: but manipulating the source code means you need to be careful as to which symbols you choose to include, because of the various shadowing it can end up causing
2015-08-09T23:02:23Z kristof: I use hygienic macro systems a lot. Rust has one.
2015-08-09T23:02:48Z Lokathor: i should say, i know that macros exist in lisp, but the "hygenic" part eludes me, as does most of the rest of that Erik Naggum quote as a result
2015-08-09T23:02:52Z kristof: And the lack of quote and procedural generation of code makes me wring my hands.
2015-08-09T23:03:24Z Lokathor: i've been reading practical common lisp, i did the CD database chapter, it contains a macro, but hand waives a lot of it
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2015-08-09T23:06:34Z kristof: Is that before or after binary parsing?
2015-08-09T23:06:55Z kristof: The binary parsing class macros do not have any hand-waving in their explanation.
2015-08-09T23:07:00Z Lokathor: it's the second chapter, with no real parsing, just a warm up with some basic stuff
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2015-08-09T23:17:49Z kristof: Lokathor: By the end of the book you will be well versed in macro magic. Then you can read Paul Graham's On Lisp or Doug Hoyte's Let Over Lambda and get even more macrology in.
2015-08-09T23:18:33Z Lokathor: the thing i really want to know is why slime takes so long to start up on my raspberry pi compared to my desktop :P
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2015-08-09T23:21:29Z Quadrescence: Lokathor, elisp is slower to execute
2015-08-09T23:22:06Z Lokathor: naw it's something weird with the way swank and sbcl are interacting on ARM i'm pretty sure
2015-08-09T23:22:15Z Lokathor: most other weird things on the rapsberry pi are "because ARM"
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2015-08-09T23:26:43Z Lokathor: so a dynamic variable can be shadowed, but only explicitly by let expressions enclosing the active code?
2015-08-09T23:27:38Z Lokathor: and lexical variables shadow even themselves every time a scope is re-entered?
2015-08-09T23:28:10Z Lokathor: i'm having a hard time following the distinction here, "one is global and one is local" is about the best i'm getting
2015-08-09T23:29:21Z Bike: if you have a lexical variable, you can look at the surrounding code text (hence "lexical") to see what value it's set to
2015-08-09T23:29:39Z Bike: whereas you can put dynamic variables wherever and their value essentially has to be looked up at run time since it's bound at run time
2015-08-09T23:30:13Z Lokathor: and local varaibles are lexical... but it says that a local variable can be made dynamic somehow as well?
2015-08-09T23:30:30Z zardoz2: when you do (let ((*var* 10)) ...) *var* is not shadowed, its value is changed to 10 within that block (and it propagates to all the function you call within it)
2015-08-09T23:30:37Z Bike: what do you mean by "local variable"?
2015-08-09T23:30:59Z Lokathor: i dunno what i mean, the book says: It's also possible to declare a name locally special. If, in a binding form, you declare a name special, then the binding created for that variable will be dynamic rather than lexical.
2015-08-09T23:31:17Z Bike: okay, yeah, that's the confusing bit.
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2015-08-09T23:31:37Z Bike: you can say that, in some lexical piece of code ('locally'), a variable is dynamic rather than lexical.
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2015-08-09T23:32:37Z Bike: so you can have (locally (declare (special x)) (+ 4 x)) at top level with nothing around it, and it will work - it just looks up 'x' at runtime as a dynamic variable.
2015-08-09T23:34:03Z Lokathor: zardoz2, how do you mean "not shadowed" if the value changes within the block and then changes back at the end? isn't that the same as shadowing a variable?
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2015-08-09T23:37:01Z zardoz2: variable shadowing means you have a new variable that shadowed the only one
2015-08-09T23:37:45Z zardoz2: (let ((x 0)) (let ((x 1)) ..))) <- two different variables, second x shadows the first one
2015-08-09T23:39:34Z Lokathor: that seems like basically the same thing
2015-08-09T23:40:09Z Lokathor: "x was one value, now it's a new value, and when you leave the current scope any changes will be dropped as it goes back to the old value"
2015-08-09T23:40:41Z Mon_Ouie: If you have a lexical closure that captures x you can see that those are different though
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2015-08-09T23:41:11Z Lokathor: hmmm, so you could pass the outer x into the inner let, but with a dynamic variable you can't do that
2015-08-09T23:41:12Z Lokathor: ah ha
2015-08-09T23:41:26Z Mon_Ouie: (let* ((x 0) (f (lambda () x))) (let ((x 1)) (funcall f))) ;; => 1 (assuming I typed it right)
2015-08-09T23:41:50Z Mon_Ouie: And I meant => 0, not => 1
2015-08-09T23:42:13Z zardoz2: also with dynamic variables the changes go beyond the current lexical scope. for example: (let ((*standard-input* custom-handle)) (all the functions you call in here that write to stdout will write to custom-handle instead))
2015-08-09T23:42:40Z Oladon: *cough* s/input/output :P
2015-08-09T23:42:52Z zardoz2: yeah :)
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2015-08-09T23:47:12Z Lokathor_: alright
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2015-08-09T23:47:55Z Lokathor: so when you say that the changes go beyond the current lexical scope...
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2015-08-09T23:48:48Z Lokathor: (let ((*standard-output* foo)) (do-thing))  isn't the call to (do-thing) still "Within" the lexical scope?
2015-08-09T23:49:01Z Bike: the call is, but not the definition of do-thing.
2015-08-09T23:49:20Z Bike: you can have, say, (defun do-thing () (write "hello world" :stream *standard-output*))
2015-08-09T23:50:45Z Bike: whereas with lexical binding you might have (let ((x 4)) (defun do-thing () (write x))), and then if you do (let ((x 5)) (do-thing)), a 4 will be written, because x in do-thing is lexical
2015-08-09T23:51:44Z Lokathor: so, are "dynamic variables" and "special variables" synonymous? and the opposite of "lexical variables"?
2015-08-09T23:52:00Z Bike: they're synonymous, yes.
2015-08-09T23:52:01Z Oladon: Not opposite, just different
2015-08-09T23:52:21Z Lokathor: well, "disjoint" perhaps
2015-08-09T23:52:31Z Bike: they are disjoint.
2015-08-09T23:53:36Z Lokathor: this book is showing a little age by giving perl examples and not ruby or javascript examples :3
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2015-08-10T00:10:10Z Xach: K&R's examples are Pascal and Fortran
2015-08-10T00:10:53Z Lokathor: k&r is 10 years older than I
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2015-08-10T00:18:55Z kristof: Language of the year examples are never going to be long-lasting.
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2015-08-10T00:19:36Z Lokathor: the C/C++/Java column, and also the Python column, still apply pretty well
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2015-08-10T00:34:06Z Zhivago: Special variables are lexical; the difference is in how they communicate their values.
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2015-08-10T00:36:04Z Lokathor: it sounds like you're about to use a definition of "lexical" that's not quite the same as how everyone else talking about lisp uses it
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2015-08-10T00:36:41Z Zhivago: It sounds like I'm using the actual definition of lexical scope.
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2015-08-10T00:37:27Z Zhivago: The confusion probably comes from forgetting which special variables you have declared at the top level.
2015-08-10T00:37:53Z Lokathor: yeah i was imagining the entire exctution environment as being enclosed in a giant let block
2015-08-10T00:38:23Z Lokathor: but then it seemed like others weren't quite imagining it the same way, and i figured that lisp executed differently or something
2015-08-10T00:38:37Z Zhivago: However, you can also have locally lexically scoped special variables.
2015-08-10T00:39:22Z Zhivago: (let ((*a* 10)) (locally (declare (special *a*))) ...)
2015-08-10T00:39:23Z Lokathor: an x that imports its value from a global x and then goes away at the end of the block?
2015-08-10T00:39:41Z Lokathor: so that's like python's "global" statement
2015-08-10T00:40:04Z Zhivago: Not from a global x, but from the specials of the same name.
2015-08-10T00:40:32Z kristof: Lokathor: Why don't you try a lot of things and see how they behave?
2015-08-10T00:40:32Z Zhivago: If it were a global declaration, the local declaration would be redundant, after all.
2015-08-10T00:41:09Z Zhivago: So, I suggest thinking of specials as being lexical variables which have a certain consensus on their binding and unbindings.
2015-08-10T00:41:20Z Lokathor: kristof, i'm reading and asking questions as I go.
2015-08-10T00:41:27Z kristof: ok
2015-08-10T00:41:40Z Lokathor: i'm up to macros, and claims are being made about how they're so great and such
2015-08-10T00:42:13Z Lokathor: but it feels like the "you can invent your own control structures" claim is less about macros and more about higher order functions in general
2015-08-10T00:42:22Z White_Flame: Lokathor: One of the more interesting & descriptive features of special variable bindings regards threading
2015-08-10T00:42:44Z White_Flame: if you do (let ((*var* val)) ...call stuff...), then within that thread, within that call chain, *var* will have that newly bound value
2015-08-10T00:42:49Z Lokathor: ah, that was in the footnotes, it said that most lisps give each thread their own special variable table?
2015-08-10T00:42:53Z White_Flame: but in any other thread, *var* will have been unaffected
2015-08-10T00:43:38Z White_Flame: they lazily allocate thread-local space per special variable as needed
2015-08-10T00:43:45Z White_Flame: from what I've disassembled
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2015-08-10T00:44:44Z Lokathor: Zhivago, i'm unclear on what the effect of the locally declare special example is. So *a* becomes a special variable during that scope, but then when that let statement finishes it also removes *a* from the special table?
2015-08-10T00:45:21Z Zhivago: Do you understand that lexical scope refers to the region of program text for which a given name refers to a given thing?
2015-08-10T00:45:27Z White_Flame: if *a* is not "globally" declared special (defvar, proclaim, etc), then only that local scope will consider it special
2015-08-10T00:45:27Z Lokathor: yes
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2015-08-10T00:46:05Z Zhivago: The local declaration means that for that region of program text, the name *a* refers to the special variable *a*.
2015-08-10T00:46:21Z Zhivago: There is no special table.
2015-08-10T00:46:43Z White_Flame: the compiler, when dealing with a named variable either knows it's declared special, or doesn't
2015-08-10T00:46:44Z Zhivago: If there are other local declarations of the same form, then those *a*s will also refer to the special variable *a*.
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2015-08-10T00:47:00Z White_Flame: defvar, proclaim, (locally (declare ...)) are ways a variable can be declared as special
2015-08-10T00:47:39Z Lokathor: well when i say "special table" i mean whatever system stores what special variables currently exist and what their values are
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2015-08-10T00:47:57Z White_Flame: that knowledge is local to the (locally (declare ..) ...) scope
2015-08-10T00:48:16Z White_Flame: it doens't need to go anywhere else
2015-08-10T00:48:17Z Zhivago: Hmm, maybe considering the special variable and its bindings separately might help.
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2015-08-10T00:48:31Z Lokathor: hold on, one person at a time
2015-08-10T00:48:46Z Lokathor: let me ask this...
2015-08-10T00:48:48Z Zhivago: The bindings of a special variable will exist so long as anything is bound to them.
2015-08-10T00:49:26Z Zhivago: You can then think of the various lexical variables that use those bindings as being special variables.
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2015-08-10T00:49:49Z Lokathor: when you have let *a* and then inside that let you declare it a local special, then inner declarations also have it as special
2015-08-10T00:50:37Z Lokathor: but if you made yet another inner let block that also declared an *a* variable... then since it's already special... what happens?
2015-08-10T00:50:51Z Zhivago: Then it is special.
2015-08-10T00:51:04Z Zhivago: But leave that lexical region, and it is not.
2015-08-10T00:51:13Z Lokathor: alright
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2015-08-10T00:52:05Z White_Flame: (defun foo () *a*) .. (let ((*a* 1)) (locally (declare (special *a*))) (foo)) -> Unbound variable *a* raised in foo, as foo didn't know it was supposed to be special
2015-08-10T00:53:03Z Lokathor: i'm coming up blank on what sort of use case would want to temporarily make a variable special
2015-08-10T00:53:12Z Zhivago: That's the wrong way of thinking about it.
2015-08-10T00:53:30Z Lokathor: oh?
2015-08-10T00:53:38Z Zhivago: You're not making a variable temporarily anything -- you're establishing a lexical variable that is special for restricted scope.
2015-08-10T00:54:13Z Lokathor: well
2015-08-10T00:54:30Z Zhivago: And the same reasoning applies as to why you might not want to make all lexical variables global.
2015-08-10T00:54:51Z Lokathor: what happens if, within the (let ((*a* a)) ...) scope you have other statements that use *a* before it's declared locally special, or after it's declared locally special?
2015-08-10T00:55:08Z Zhivago: Then they're naming different variables.
2015-08-10T00:55:28Z Zhivago: Although the locally declaration applies to the whole of the let, so your example doesn't quite work.
2015-08-10T00:55:43Z Lokathor: oh
2015-08-10T00:55:52Z Lokathor: well that seems a key detail i suppose
2015-08-10T00:56:42Z Zhivago: It's easy one you realize that they're still lexical variables. :)
2015-08-10T00:56:58Z Zhivago: They just share their bindings.
2015-08-10T00:57:38Z White_Flame also raises an eyebrow at this particular use of "lexical"
2015-08-10T00:58:00Z Zhivago: If you think that is peculiar, you do not understand what lexical scope means.
2015-08-10T00:58:07Z Lokathor: so the effect of being special is that the variable shares a value across the call stack as long as it's special and in scope
2015-08-10T00:58:28Z Lokathor: regardless of how much extra call depth you add
2015-08-10T00:58:43Z Zhivago: Lokathor: That sounds about right.
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2015-08-10T00:59:11Z Lokathor: but there can be problems if a funciton expects a variable to not be special and it gets called when it is special?
2015-08-10T00:59:29Z White_Flame: that's why we *earmuff* special vars
2015-08-10T00:59:44Z Zhivago: It is a lexical property, so the function always expects correctly.
2015-08-10T01:00:01Z Zhivago: It may be confusing for humans who aren't paying attention to the lexical environment.
2015-08-10T01:00:26Z Zhivago: That is, 'gets called when it is special' is an error in thinking.
2015-08-10T01:00:30Z Lokathor: well there was the example above where you'd get an unbound variable error
2015-08-10T01:00:40Z Zhivago: The function uses the variable in its lexical scope.
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2015-08-10T01:00:58Z Zhivago: Which is generally independent of the caller's lexical scope.
2015-08-10T01:01:37Z Zhivago: There is no 'makes the variable special' -- there is 'selects a special or non-special variable for use in this lexical scope'.
2015-08-10T01:02:07Z Lokathor: so you'd declare a local variable special... when you're going to be making functions within the current scope and then returning those functions?
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2015-08-10T01:02:51Z Zhivago: That would be one approach, but normally you'd just declare the variables special in each function, if you wanted that.
2015-08-10T01:03:08Z Lokathor: like, why would you declare a local variable to be special, what does it let you do that you can't do otherwise. i'm still failing to find a use case
2015-08-10T01:03:41Z Zhivago: Lokathor: It allows you not to have a global variable.
2015-08-10T01:03:59Z Zhivago: Lokathor: It also makes macros easier.
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2015-08-10T01:04:17Z Zhivago: Imagine that a macro wants to build two functions which communicate via a special that the macro establishes.
2015-08-10T01:04:31Z Lokathor: ah, yes that is what i was saying
2015-08-10T01:04:49Z Zhivago: But there's nothing special about that -- it's the same for non-special variables.
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2015-08-10T01:05:44Z Zhivago: Personally, I am not a big fan of special variables, since they're a form of shared memory.
2015-08-10T01:06:03Z White_Flame: I use them heavily for thread-local context objects
2015-08-10T01:06:05Z Zhivago: But they do make implicit environments easier to manage.
2015-08-10T01:08:06Z Lokathor: they're like a thread-local IORef
2015-08-10T01:08:07Z Lokathor: got it
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2015-08-10T01:27:45Z hegel: Il n'y a pas dehors du sexp.
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2015-08-10T01:40:28Z Lokathor: do lisp compilers generally have a way to take a source file, expand all the macros, and then output that?
2015-08-10T01:40:50Z Lokathor: that's what macroexpand-1 is for, right? but can you apply it to a whole file?
2015-08-10T01:41:35Z Zhivago: One top-level expression at a time.
2015-08-10T01:42:01Z Zhivago: An editor might be a better place to look for that kind of support.
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2015-08-10T01:42:11Z Lokathor: yeah
2015-08-10T01:42:20Z Lokathor: might make for an interesting script
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2015-08-10T01:43:41Z atgnag: Does sbcl work well for making shell-ish scripts?
2015-08-10T01:44:10Z atgnag: Or would I be better off using picolisp (which is its own lisp variant, but very light)
2015-08-10T01:46:23Z White_Flame: macroexpand et al don't expand macros inside nested forms, though
2015-08-10T01:46:24Z kristof: I actually think that's more a question of preference.
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2015-08-10T01:47:26Z kristof: atgnag: You can use common lisp for scripting. Shelly is a good tool for that. Picolisp simply behaves differently from Common Lisp and whether you like one or the other is the deciding factor.
2015-08-10T01:47:59Z White_Flame: I've been thinking that there should be a #!/bin/lisp stump which can call whatever your preference for environment is, with the proper config to make it script-like
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2015-08-10T01:48:32Z Lokathor: isn't that whay #!/usr/bin/env is all about?
2015-08-10T01:48:57Z White_Flame: yeah, if you want to find sbcl, or clisp, or cl86whatevreclozurecallsit
2015-08-10T01:49:02Z kristof: atgnag: I think the benefit of using Common Lisp over Picolisp is that if you ever want to turn your script into a full application with bells and whistles, you're already working in a language that can scale that far.
2015-08-10T01:49:06Z White_Flame: not just "run a common lisp script"
2015-08-10T01:49:33Z Lokathor: ah, well that sounds like a distribution / package manager issue
2015-08-10T01:49:55Z atgnag: kristof: Yeah, but doesn't sbcl have a slow startup time to be using for scripts?
2015-08-10T01:49:58Z Lokathor: generate some symlinks so that /usr/bin/lisp points to the correct thing
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2015-08-10T01:50:21Z kristof: atgnag: Shelly lets you use a preloaded core so that the startup time is negligible.
2015-08-10T01:50:39Z atgnag: kristof: All right, thanks. I'll take a look at it.
2015-08-10T01:50:44Z kristof: atgnag: :)
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2015-08-10T01:50:55Z Lokathor: atgnag, sbcl opens up to a new prompt and is ready for input just as fast as python and lua on my machine
2015-08-10T01:51:09Z Lokathor: it shouuld be plenty zippy
2015-08-10T01:51:13Z kristof: atgnag: https://github.com/fukamachi/shelly
2015-08-10T01:52:07Z kristof: Lokathor: Your "just as fast" is at the level of human observation. The reality is that loading sbcl from scratch is slower than, say, python.
2015-08-10T01:52:20Z Zhivago: Which python?
2015-08-10T01:52:21Z atgnag: Lokathor: Really? For me it takes approximately 5 seconds. Not sure if linedit affects that.
2015-08-10T01:52:30Z kristof: Zhivago: cpython.
2015-08-10T01:52:35Z Lokathor: cpython2.7
2015-08-10T01:52:38Z Zhivago: That's probably true.
2015-08-10T01:53:03Z kristof: cpython is `optimized' to be quick for random usage of python programs.
2015-08-10T01:53:28Z kristof: (The reality is that it is easier to optimize a python program by writing it in something else entirely)
2015-08-10T01:53:47Z Lokathor: i suppose that may be true, i guess it depends on how fast you need a script to load up from scratch
2015-08-10T01:55:59Z kristof: That's also true, actually. But I think sbcl with a preloaded core is competitive.
2015-08-10T01:58:16Z Lokathor: time sbcl --eval "(format t \"foo\")" --non-interactive takes .084s real time. time python -c "print 'foo'" takes .070 real time.
2015-08-10T01:58:41Z Lokathor: not an exact science or anything, but seems to be in the same ballpark
2015-08-10T02:01:19Z atgnag: I'm a little confused. How would I turn a lisp script into a shell command?
2015-08-10T02:01:56Z Lokathor: ...using sbcl? or shelly? I don't know about shelly
2015-08-10T02:02:38Z kristof: atgnag: Did you read the shelly thing I linked you?
2015-08-10T02:03:06Z atgnag: kristof: Yeah.
2015-08-10T02:03:33Z atgnag: What would I do with a .lisp file I wrote?
2015-08-10T02:04:47Z White_Flame: sbcl --script <filename>
2015-08-10T02:05:19Z atgnag: White_Flame: I meant with shelly.
2015-08-10T02:05:28Z White_Flame: ah, sorry
2015-08-10T02:06:04Z Lokathor: White_Flame, i can't seem to get a file to be run via sbcl using #!
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2015-08-10T02:07:06Z Bike: #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script
2015-08-10T02:07:24Z Xach: kristof: sbcl starts up really fast. it's unfortunately slow at actually compiling or loading anything.
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2015-08-10T02:07:43Z Lokathor: ohhh, i was using #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script foo.cl
2015-08-10T02:08:08Z Bike: you put the filename in the shebang?
2015-08-10T02:08:59Z atgnag: I like how shly automatically fetches libraries through quicklisp.
2015-08-10T02:09:21Z Lokathor: well no you're not supposed to
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2015-08-10T02:12:35Z kristof: atgnag: You would just load the lisp file. shly load your_script.lisp
2015-08-10T02:13:36Z kristof: Xach: Ah, I thought the starting up would be slow.
2015-08-10T02:14:44Z atgnag: kristof: All right. Thanks.
2015-08-10T02:15:41Z kristof: atgnag: Let me know if that works. I'm pretty sure shelly your_script.lisp would just echo the pathname object back.
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2015-08-10T02:16:51Z atgnag: kristof: I'm looking for gems on github gist to try this with.
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2015-08-10T02:17:35Z kristof shrugs
2015-08-10T02:18:07Z kristof: atgnag: A lot of other people are satisfied with /usr/bin/sbcl --script, by the way.
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2015-08-10T02:19:31Z atgnag: kristof: Yeah, but there's a modicum of situations where that simply isn't acceptable.
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2015-08-10T02:21:14Z drmeister: Hey everyone
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2015-08-10T02:22:06Z Oladon: Evening drmeister
2015-08-10T02:22:19Z White_Flame: re
2015-08-10T02:22:23Z drmeister: Remember how I said that before I started working on Clasp that I had written an archaic lisp interpreter that interoperated with C++ and I used it to design molecules on 40,000 CPU supercomputers?
2015-08-10T02:22:41Z drmeister: I found my old code and I need to translate it now to Cando/Clasp/Common Lisp
2015-08-10T02:22:56Z drmeister: It looks like this:
2015-08-10T02:22:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/y6LmZTQN/
2015-08-10T02:23:41Z drmeister: It's real code that I need to translate now because it represents a lot of work that I did but there is no lisp machine that will interpret it at this point.
2015-08-10T02:23:49Z drmeister: I even had single-dispatch OOP
2015-08-10T02:24:18Z nyef: Heh. And here I was wondering what would be involved in writing a compatibility layer...?
2015-08-10T02:24:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BZGSikTu/
2015-08-10T02:25:02Z drmeister: nyef: I'll be translating it.  Lots of s/archaic/cl/g
2015-08-10T02:25:34Z nyef: Or even an automatic translation tool...
2015-08-10T02:25:49Z nyef: I guess it depends on relative estimated effort.
2015-08-10T02:25:52Z drmeister: Here's a picture of some kittens to clean your eyeballs:   http://wide-wallpapers.net/cute-kittens-in-the-garden-wide-wallpaper/
2015-08-10T02:26:48Z nyef: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kitten_Huffing ?
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2015-08-10T02:57:56Z kristof: I'm seconding the code translation tool.
2015-08-10T02:58:25Z kristof: ...what does "an" mean?
2015-08-10T02:58:28Z kristof: ah, ac, ao
2015-08-10T02:58:51Z kristof: oh, those were let bindings. Phew.
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2015-08-10T04:26:18Z atgnag: "Construct versions of LOGICAL-AND and LOGICAL-OR by putting together NANDs. You will have to use more than one NAND in each case."
2015-08-10T04:27:05Z atgnag: Is this true? Can't logical and be made with (defune logical-and (x y) (not (and x y)))?
2015-08-10T04:27:17Z atgnag: *defun
2015-08-10T04:27:28Z atgnag: *nand
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2015-08-10T04:40:47Z White_Flame: the 'not' is made up of a nand
2015-08-10T04:41:31Z White_Flame: it didn't say "by putting together NANDs and NOTs", it said "by putting together NANDs." :)
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2015-08-10T04:52:36Z jackdaniel: (nand (nand a b) (nand a b))
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2015-08-10T04:52:42Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-10T04:53:54Z atgnag: jackdaniel: Why not just use (not (nand a b)) though?
2015-08-10T04:54:22Z jackdaniel: not isn't nand, as White_Flame pointed
2015-08-10T04:54:45Z atgnag: Ah, okay.
2015-08-10T04:54:49Z jackdaniel: if you could use any gate, what would be a point of such excercise?
2015-08-10T04:55:00Z atgnag: Yeah, I get it now.
2015-08-10T04:55:09Z jackdaniel: it's easier to produce sole nands than produce sole nands *and* nots
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2015-08-10T04:56:26Z jackdaniel: let's obfuscate it a bit! -- `(nand ,@(dup (nand a b)))
2015-08-10T04:56:28Z jackdaniel: :D
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2015-08-10T09:16:17Z pjb: minion: memo for Lokathor: the first time you run slime, it has to compile itself, so it's slower than the next time.
2015-08-10T09:16:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Lokathor when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-10T09:28:59Z pjb: minion: memo for Lokathor: http://paste.lisp.org/+3ACM see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/4VyopdWcFI4/1sDQU-3H8VgJ
2015-08-10T09:28:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Lokathor when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-10T09:29:19Z pjb: Zhivago: explain the first error if you can! http://paste.lisp.org/+3ACM  You are confusing local with lexical!
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2015-08-10T09:47:42Z White_Flame: pjb: I think it all depends on what he means by "variable" in that context
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2015-08-10T09:48:48Z White_Flame: but even then, I don't see how the variable itself is local, since it changes the value slot of the symbol itself
2015-08-10T09:49:17Z White_Flame: s/local/lexical/ to match the original claim
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2015-08-10T09:55:16Z pjb: minion: memo for Lokatho: now there is: http://paste.lisp.org/+3ACN
2015-08-10T09:55:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Lokatho when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-10T09:55:56Z pjb: White_Flame: in general  Zhivago is crazy: he doesn't use the same words as us in the same way.
2015-08-10T09:56:17Z pjb: White_Flame: a lexical variable is always lexical.  lexical special or lexical dynamic is an oxymoron.
2015-08-10T09:56:26Z White_Flame: yeah, I like seeing what the method is behind the madness
2015-08-10T09:56:37Z White_Flame: as in "lexical variable with a dynamic binding" or something
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2015-08-10T09:57:23Z White_Flame: the only part I could see as a potential tack would be the definition of "variable"
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2015-08-10T10:00:57Z pjb: drmeister: just implement your old lisp in CL, writing the missing macros and functions.
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2015-08-10T14:41:22Z hitecnologys: RFC https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/binarium
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2015-08-10T14:47:36Z pjb: I like the name. Why not u32 u64 u128? IPv6 uses u128.
2015-08-10T14:48:05Z pjb: Oh, you mean it's the number of octets, not bit.  Confusing.
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2015-08-10T14:48:29Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-08-10T14:49:07Z hitecnologys: The name is a combination of "medium" and "binary".
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2015-08-10T14:49:17Z pjb: Yes, you should leave room for u7 u13 and u15, they may occur in some protocols.
2015-08-10T14:49:45Z pjb: For example, X11 uses a u29 for symbols.
2015-08-10T14:49:53Z hitecnologys: The reason I chose to name things by octets is that fast-io provides functions that operate on octets.
2015-08-10T14:50:22Z hitecnologys: e.g. READU16-BE.
2015-08-10T14:50:28Z hitecnologys: So, you think I should change it?
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2015-08-10T14:51:57Z hitecnologys: Wait.
2015-08-10T14:52:14Z hitecnologys: Ah, never mind.
2015-08-10T14:52:35Z hitecnologys: Oh god, reverse everything I just said.
2015-08-10T14:52:53Z loz: %)
2015-08-10T14:52:55Z hitecnologys: I have no idea why I chose those names.
2015-08-10T14:53:09Z hitecnologys: Let's go fix that.
2015-08-10T14:55:36Z pjb: if it's still time, IMO it would be better to use the number of bit in those names, int8, uint32, etc.
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2015-08-10T14:55:43Z cxmu: pjb, hows your credit score?
2015-08-10T14:55:48Z pjb: What credit score?
2015-08-10T14:55:55Z cxmu: your FIFO
2015-08-10T14:56:11Z pjb: I don't know what you mean. First In First Out???
2015-08-10T14:56:56Z pjb: hitecnologys: did you compare it with cffi?
2015-08-10T14:57:14Z pjb: hitecnologys: if you define the structure with CFFi and use CFFI accessors, it might be faster?
2015-08-10T14:57:23Z cmack: anyone know if planet.sbcl.org dns failure is an oversight or on purpose?
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2015-08-10T14:57:41Z pjb: On the other hand, CFFI would have host C dependencies ,that might be bad for network protocols.
2015-08-10T14:57:51Z hitecnologys: pjb: not yet. I've just finished it (started about three days ago) so I'm currently in a process of polishing what I have before doing any serious benchmarking.
2015-08-10T14:57:52Z Xach: cmack: My mistake.
2015-08-10T14:57:55Z Xach: cmack: I'll fix it.
2015-08-10T14:58:14Z hitecnologys: pjb: and yeah, I don't want any hardwired dependencies.
2015-08-10T15:00:30Z cmack: Xach: cool. thanks for that service as well. I do enjoy it.
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2015-08-10T15:01:40Z Xach: cmack: glad to hear it, and sorry about the downtime
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2015-08-10T15:14:58Z hitecnologys: Done.
2015-08-10T15:15:04Z hitecnologys: Now it's bits.
2015-08-10T15:15:34Z pjb: Good, looks much better ;-)
2015-08-10T15:15:34Z hitecnologys: I also implemented simple enums but it's not documented yet as I haven't wrote tests and benchmark for them.
2015-08-10T15:15:48Z hitecnologys: Yeah, it does look better.
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2015-08-10T16:13:40Z Guest81359:  
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2015-08-10T17:29:45Z jlarocco_work: hitechnologys: I just left a comment on one of your changesets for the binarium package.
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2015-08-10T17:31:51Z fe[nl]ix: hitecnologys: try swap-bytes. with enough macrology you can make endianness transparent
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2015-08-10T17:32:55Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix: hmm, looks interesting. Marked that on my list, thanks.
2015-08-10T17:32:57Z fe[nl]ix: hitecnologys: plus for SBCL & CCL the primitives are written in assembly
2015-08-10T17:33:12Z fe[nl]ix: thanks to stassats :)
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2015-08-10T17:36:07Z hitecnologys: fe[nl]ix: I'll report how it goes compared to hard-coded big-endian once I get my hands on it.
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2015-08-10T17:55:14Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: are you going to merge current cffi pull request?
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2015-08-10T18:22:10Z Xach: productivity plummets as lispworks.com is down
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2015-08-10T18:26:52Z nyef: Having a local copy of the hyperspec is wonderful.
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2015-08-10T18:27:46Z Xach: I never bothered. This is the first time in ages that I couldn't reach lispworks's copy.
2015-08-10T18:27:51Z Xach: first amazon s3, now lispworks.com
2015-08-10T18:27:54Z Xach: is no site safe today?
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2015-08-10T18:34:39Z dwchandler: Xach: fyi, I got to the hyperspec just now :)
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2015-08-10T18:35:48Z Xach: dwchandler: hooray
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2015-08-10T18:37:14Z oleo: ya i have it local too.....
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2015-08-10T18:39:13Z vaitel: lispworks is amazingly expensive.
2015-08-10T18:39:31Z oleo: 1200$ ?
2015-08-10T18:39:33Z Xach: Worth every penny.
2015-08-10T18:39:52Z Xach: or euro-cent, or whatever
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2015-08-10T18:45:25Z vaitel: I think that if I had a commercial application to write, it would be totally worth it, just a bit expensive for a hobby.
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2015-08-10T19:44:07Z White_Flame: I grabbed a local copy as well, and added links to the content page to go directly to each chapter's dictionary, since that's usually where I end up looking for something
2015-08-10T19:44:12Z White_Flame: (of the CLHS)
2015-08-10T19:45:50Z dwchandler: I just grabbed a copy, because you never know
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2015-08-10T20:20:34Z lispm: lispworks, the IDE, has a local version of the Hyperspec
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2015-08-10T20:36:40Z mrottenkolber: Why are the two forms not equivalent? http://paste.lisp.org/display/153412
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2015-08-10T20:38:01Z mrottenkolber: For me form#1 loops forever interactively, I don't get why.
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2015-08-10T20:41:14Z mrottenkolber: Xach: I find http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html pretty nice.
2015-08-10T20:42:20Z Xach: mrottenkolber: I don't know how to phrase it exactly, but I think the key difference is the lack of non-local exit in case #1
2015-08-10T20:42:31Z varjag: wonder if there is any summary page/thesis/book on string distance algorithms
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2015-08-10T20:42:39Z Xach: mrottenkolber: http://l1sp.org/cl/9.1.4.2 discusses it
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2015-08-10T20:44:21Z gnusosa: Hi would anybody recommend "Natural Language Processing in Lisp: An Introduction to Computational Linguistics" or is there any other modern alternative I should read instead?
2015-08-10T20:46:13Z mrottenkolber: Xach: Yeah I noticed that RESTART-BIND says: "The function may either perform a non-local transfer of control or may return normally. " But that doesn't explain the behavior does it?
2015-08-10T20:46:26Z Xach: mrottenkolber: did you see 9.1.4.2?
2015-08-10T20:46:43Z Xach: mrottenkolber: you also don't handle it in restart-bind because invoke-restart also doesn't do a non-local transfer
2015-08-10T20:46:58Z Oladon: gnusosa: what are you wanting to learn about? Lisp? NLP? NLP in Lisp? Computational Linguistics in general?
2015-08-10T20:47:30Z gnusosa: Oladon: NLP in LISP and Computational Linguistics in general.
2015-08-10T20:47:46Z gnusosa: Olandon: I already know LISP, or at least I think so.
2015-08-10T20:48:01Z lispm: The book is very old and the Lisp style is kind of on the poor side.
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2015-08-10T20:49:34Z gnusosa: Oh I see, So should I read an alternative book that it's not in LISP and try to apply it to LISP.
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2015-08-10T20:50:15Z gnusosa: ?
2015-08-10T20:50:33Z lispm: if you find a cheap copy you can buy it, but it's a substantial read.
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2015-08-10T20:50:51Z mrottenkolber: Xach: So RESTART-BIND does not associate the restart with the signaled condition?
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2015-08-10T20:51:05Z lispm: Though I would expect that NLP software looks different now - 25 years later.
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2015-08-10T20:52:06Z Xach: mrottenkolber: I don't think so.
2015-08-10T20:52:09Z lispm: I don't think there are many books about NLP with Lisp code. Many used Prolog at some point.
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2015-08-10T20:52:24Z gnusosa: Yeah I found those, but I don't care about Prolog.
2015-08-10T20:53:21Z lispm: typically those books will be more advanced. A Lisp book will spend some time reimplementing Prolog features.
2015-08-10T20:53:25Z jackdaniel: library langutils gives primitives for nlp
2015-08-10T20:53:28Z jackdaniel: but othing more
2015-08-10T20:53:42Z jackdaniel: s/othing/nothing/
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2015-08-10T20:57:38Z lispm: The Lisp source for the book is here: https://bitbucket.org/msorc/nlp-in-lisp/src
2015-08-10T20:58:49Z gnusosa: oh thanks
2015-08-10T20:59:26Z gnusosa: haha (setq database '(...))
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2015-08-10T21:00:09Z mrottenkolber: Xach: Its confusing. Somehow WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS must be able to be used to make form#1 behave like #2 but I don't get how.
2015-08-10T21:00:58Z mrottenkolber: Or not?
2015-08-10T21:01:02Z White_Flame: that NLP code certainly is looking like the old-school Prolog approach
2015-08-10T21:01:29Z mrottenkolber: Xach: Honestly 9.1.4.2 / 9.1.4.2.4 are more than confusing, I don't get it.
2015-08-10T21:01:37Z lispm: the book exists in three editions: Prolog, Lisp and Pop11
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2015-08-10T21:04:33Z mrottenkolber: Xach: CLISP behaves differently than CCL (enters debugger but no infinite loop)
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2015-08-10T21:06:22Z mrottenkolber: Still I don't see any explanation for it to ever enter the debugger: I throw a condition and its handled by the surrounding HANDLER-BIND, why would RESTART-BIND prevent the HANDLER-BIND from working?
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2015-08-10T21:39:29Z Xach: mrottenkolber: handler-bind does not handle it
2015-08-10T21:39:49Z Xach: mrottenkolber: handler-bind handlers must do a non-local exit to handle. your restart-bind form does not do an NLE.
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2015-08-10T21:45:55Z jasom: mrottenkolber: perhaps you want handler-case?
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2015-08-10T22:07:00Z mrottenkolber: Xach, jasom: Ah I've been barking at the wrong tree...
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2015-08-10T22:08:01Z jasom: IIRC PCL has a good description of restarts and handlers
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2015-08-10T22:08:40Z k-stz: jasom: yes definitely
2015-08-10T22:08:57Z mrottenkolber: It does, I just wrongfully thought of *-CASE / *-BIND as interchangable ad got confused by the results.
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2015-08-10T22:11:11Z mrottenkolber: Now I know: the -case part is whats doing the NLE.
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2015-08-10T22:23:22Z axion: What is the best way to get the filesystem path of a project, so that I can open resource files relative to the project rather than a full pathname? My thought was to use asdf:system-relative-pathname, but I'm not sure how to retrieve the name of the system to pass to that, without hard-coding it
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2015-08-10T22:28:59Z nyef: axion: How about *load-truename* or similar?
2015-08-10T22:29:14Z nyef: (If I'm remembering the variable name correctly.)
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2015-08-10T22:29:40Z axion: i'd have to read up on that, but it is set to NIL for me
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2015-08-10T22:34:15Z scymtym: axion: there is also asdf:system-relative-pathname, opinions differ on this one, though
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2015-08-10T22:34:44Z scymtym: axion: sorry, somehow didn't read the rest of your message
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2015-08-10T22:35:29Z axion: yes, that is what I was going to use, but I'd like to somehow determine the name of the current system. Is this held in a variable somewhere?
2015-08-10T22:36:43Z dwchandler: axion: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25800283/load-file-with-a-relative-path
2015-08-10T22:37:21Z dwchandler: specifically, see the comments on the answer
2015-08-10T22:37:23Z axion: dwchandler: but I am not using LOAD
2015-08-10T22:37:38Z dwchandler: right, so it won't work then
2015-08-10T22:37:40Z dwchandler: :(
2015-08-10T22:37:47Z axion: these are game resource files relative to the project directory
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2015-08-10T22:47:47Z Xach: axion: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html is something i wrote about it a while ago. the comments are good.
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2015-08-10T22:51:10Z axion: Xach: thanks
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2015-08-10T22:56:48Z axion: Xach: this will probably not work for me, as the function with merge-pathnames is in another system of generic-utilities. i'd like to do this for many projects, and including duplicate code in each system seems a bit hacky
2015-08-10T22:56:50Z Quadrescence: Xach, as I've probably said before, I've found this to be more useful than MERGE-PATHNAMES everywhere https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/illogical-pathnames
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2015-08-10T22:58:40Z Quadrescence: (works well for the whole resource thing too)
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2015-08-10T23:04:27Z XachX: Cool
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2015-08-11T00:17:43Z Fare: uiop:merge-pathnames* is more amenable to be what you want than cl:merge-pathnames
2015-08-11T00:17:50Z Fare: especially if you care about portability
2015-08-11T00:17:57Z Fare: and actually, uiop:subpathname
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2015-08-11T02:29:28Z CatToloo: What exactly is the difficulty that profuse use of parentheses ")(" presents to people who dislike such peculiarity of Lisp?
2015-08-11T02:30:18Z Xach: CatToloo: i think you would get more informative answers from people who have rejected lisp syntax. the people here embrace it.
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2015-08-11T02:31:44Z CatToloo: I thought someone here might have a rebuttal to such complaints.
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2015-08-11T02:34:02Z drmeister: We love parentheses here because they denote "scope", a fundamental concept in programming that many other languages often confuse and obscure.  Within a scope things are defined that are not defined outside.
2015-08-11T02:35:18Z drmeister: We also love s-expressions because they are a simple syntax that it easy to represent with lists and lists are easy to generate programmatically and thus macros (code that writes code) is easy to implement.
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2015-08-11T02:36:04Z drmeister: Feel free to correct me if I've said something wrong.
2015-08-11T02:36:54Z CatToloo: Those seem quite desirable features.
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2015-08-11T02:37:47Z jason_m: CatToloo: I've shown lisp code to a couple other people and I think it is different enough from what they are used to that they don't want to try to understand it.  That's the best objection I can come up with: It's different.
2015-08-11T02:38:30Z drmeister: Yup, we love our parentheses.  Just like in C++ they love their semicolons, curly braces, brackets, parentheses, angled brackets and commas.
2015-08-11T02:38:48Z CatToloo: heh :D
2015-08-11T02:39:13Z Fare: If you like a language with few parentheses, you can try APL...
2015-08-11T02:39:44Z Fare: My Lisp programs typically have fewer parentheses than a Java or Python program that does the same thing.
2015-08-11T02:39:59Z Fare: By virtue of being 4x smaller.
2015-08-11T02:40:54Z jason_m: I'm curious about the tiny apl programs that people post as project euler solutions.  but then i'm guilty of not learning it because "it's different"
2015-08-11T02:41:09Z drmeister: Fare - will we meet tomorrow?
2015-08-11T02:41:18Z kokonut: I get the feeling that people don't like Lisp also don't use a paren balancing editor and think they have to balance it manually.
2015-08-11T02:43:55Z jason_m: like anything, you need the right tools for the job
2015-08-11T02:44:10Z kokonut: I once saw a common lisp tutorial on YouTube where the person was manually closing parentheses in their editor and running their lisp script via command line instead of REPL.
2015-08-11T02:45:19Z kokonut: i agree, the point is i am thinking that they aren't even aware those tools exists, so they just instinctively feel it is too complicated.
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2015-08-11T02:48:01Z CatToloo: One of the owner-coders of the web service "ViaWeb" praised the many advantages of having coded it in Lisp, with the end result of having sold the service to Yahoo for billions of dollars.  Recently I saw a rebuttal to his praises:
2015-08-11T02:49:35Z Fare: drmeister, sorry to miss your talk, I'm in France :-(
2015-08-11T02:49:50Z CatToloo: The contrarian programmer said that Yahoo couldn't maintain the code, that it was undecipherable, and that they could not find enough coders that knew Lisp to maintain it, and that therefore, they refactored the whole thing in Perl.  How valid is that criticism?
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2015-08-11T02:51:35Z Fare: CatToLoo: 1- for a fraction of the price of 100 C++ programmers, they could have gotten 20 Lisp programmers who would have maintained the code
2015-08-11T02:51:46Z Fare: or yuck Perl
2015-08-11T02:52:08Z kokonut: i was gonna say Perl is more decipherable ;-)
2015-08-11T02:52:13Z Fare: but hey, if you're not going to pay more for people worth more... then yes, you'll pay even more for people worth less.
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2015-08-11T02:53:17Z Fare: rewriting viaweb in C++ is a great exercise in capital destruction
2015-08-11T02:53:55Z jason_m: i think paul graham's arguments are pretty solid.  and there is certainly no denying the success viaweb had.
2015-08-11T02:54:20Z jason_m: seems to me that viaweb fell victim to big company mentality
2015-08-11T02:55:01Z Xach: it's not hard to imagine someone who is an opinionated expert in a niche language working alone making something that only they can maintain.
2015-08-11T02:55:44Z Fare: it's not hard imagining an idiot manager proud of having a 10x size team of idiots he can manage rather than a 1x size team of bright people he can't.
2015-08-11T02:56:14Z Xach: speak of the devil
2015-08-11T02:56:24Z drmeister: Fare: Too bad.  Some other time then.
2015-08-11T02:58:27Z Fare: I've seen the code written by an opinionated expert in a niche language working alone making something that only they can maintain... and those who painfully maintained it afterwards.
2015-08-11T02:58:37Z Fare: We've had a lot of that at ITA, too.
2015-08-11T02:59:23Z jason_m: Xach: Nice article on the package::(form) syntax!  I didn't notice if that was before or after you gave the quicklisp clean example here yesterday.
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2015-08-11T03:00:01Z Xach: jason_m: Thanks. It's handy.
2015-08-11T03:00:42Z jason_m: I've put it to use a couple times already!
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2015-08-11T03:02:05Z Xach is trying to write more frequently
2015-08-11T03:02:40Z drmeister: What's the package::(form) syntax for?
2015-08-11T03:02:51Z Fare: sbcl and symbolics
2015-08-11T03:02:58Z drmeister: I see it.
2015-08-11T03:02:59Z Xach: drmeister: it reads (form) as though it were in-package package
2015-08-11T03:03:09Z Xach: drmeister: it's a shorthand
2015-08-11T03:04:02Z drmeister wants Xach to know that since Xach blogged about his Cambridge talk he put Xack's blog on his quicklink bar and sees his smiling face every darn time he types in a URL.
2015-08-11T03:04:21Z Xach says cheeeeese
2015-08-11T03:04:38Z Xach says zzzzzzzs
2015-08-11T03:04:39Z Fare: does that mean sbcl has abandoned its "let's be anal about not accepting 100% anything not 100% conformant" attitude?
2015-08-11T03:04:53Z drmeister: Seriously:   http://i.imgur.com/Tb7qBgl.png
2015-08-11T03:04:59Z kokonut: is there a link to said talk?
2015-08-11T03:05:23Z Xach has shaved the beard
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2015-08-11T03:05:33Z Fare: drmeister, will your talk be the same as in Cambridge?
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2015-08-11T03:05:59Z drmeister: It will be a bit different - I can build molecules now so I show how I use it to build molecules.
2015-08-11T03:06:07Z Xach: kokonut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
2015-08-11T03:06:25Z Xach: kokonut: drmeister's talk? or mine?
2015-08-11T03:06:29Z Xach isn't sure which "his" drmeister means
2015-08-11T03:07:02Z drmeister: Ah - "sees Xach's smiling face every darn time..."
2015-08-11T03:07:28Z kokonut: okay, the google tech talk is the cambridge one, I though it was a different one all together.
2015-08-11T03:08:02Z drmeister: I gave another at the Google mothership in Mountain View last week - I'm not sure that will make it to the web.  There were AV ... problems.
2015-08-11T03:08:31Z kokonut: it would be awesome if they put it up too, hearing you talk is inspiring :-)
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2015-08-11T03:13:06Z CatToloo: Fare: yes, certainly, wrong-headed management is a frequent factor.
2015-08-11T03:13:51Z CatToloo: the fact they went to Perl does not necessarily mean they HAD to do that.
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2015-08-11T03:16:40Z Fare: Perl, of all languages... ouch
2015-08-11T03:17:36Z CatToloo: yes; i chuckled at that  :)
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2015-08-11T03:21:42Z jusss: how to delay to eval a function after 50 seconds and don't block current thread /
2015-08-11T03:21:44Z jusss: ?
2015-08-11T03:22:07Z Fare: start a new thread
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2015-08-11T03:23:08Z jusss: Fare: is there another way ? like lazy eval or continuation or something can do it ?
2015-08-11T03:24:27Z Fare: if you have an event loop, you can use a CPT and tuck your continuation into a priority heap of things to do, in 50 s
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2015-08-11T03:24:55Z Fare: I'm told javascripters do that all the time
2015-08-11T03:25:06Z goglosh: xb
2015-08-11T03:25:09Z goglosh: sorry
2015-08-11T03:25:52Z drmeister: kokonut: Thanks
2015-08-11T03:26:50Z Fare: CatToLoo: in syntaxes with C-like syntax, parentheses are a symptom of ambiguity and trigger unease in the reader. If they keep this trigger while reading Lisp code, they're gonna have a bad time.
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2015-08-11T03:33:31Z CatToloo: Fare: yes, biases often carry to other domains.
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2015-08-11T03:47:55Z drmeister: Fare: Good point.
2015-08-11T03:48:22Z drmeister: I never thought of that before.
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2015-08-11T03:55:38Z loke: jusss: I wrote a portable timer implementation that does exactly this
2015-08-11T03:56:15Z loke: Hmm... I just realised it's not public at the moment. Sorry.
2015-08-11T03:56:29Z loke: It's part of a code base that will be open sourced in the next few weeks though.
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2015-08-11T04:01:35Z jusss: loke: how it do ?
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2015-08-11T04:02:58Z loke: jusss: Its implementation is similar to that of java.util.Timer. It keeps a btree of active timers, ordered by expiration time. There is a single thread that waits until the next timer is about to expire and then calls a callback function on it and then wait for the next.
2015-08-11T04:03:02Z jusss: loke: event loop or multi-threads or continuation lazy eval ?
2015-08-11T04:03:29Z jusss: loke: so it's event loop ?
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2015-08-11T04:05:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-11T04:05:37Z loke: jusss: That's the backend implementation. I don't see how it could be implemented in any other way. You can build a continutation-based API on top of it if you want. The API is: (SCHEDULE-TIMER mgr 60 fn) where mgr is the time manager instance (can be a single global one if you want) and callback is a funcallable that is called after 60 seconds.
2015-08-11T04:07:04Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-08-11T04:07:47Z CatToloo: was the link to drmeister's talk posted above?  i can't find it.
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2015-08-11T04:07:54Z drmeister: Do you have some time for some Cleavir questions?
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2015-08-11T04:08:19Z beach: Sure.
2015-08-11T04:08:26Z drmeister: CatToloo: https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/i-gave-a-talk-on-clasp-and-my-chemistry-at-google-in-cambridge-mass-last-week/
2015-08-11T04:08:40Z CatToloo: drmeister: thanks
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2015-08-11T04:09:52Z drmeister: beach: I implemented a compile-ast method for BIND-AST but I realized that I may have to pass closures to call_with_variable_bound and funwind_protect functions.
2015-08-11T04:10:09Z drmeister: Here's what the AST looks like for a BIND-AST
2015-08-11T04:10:20Z drmeister:  (clasp-cleavir::ast-form '(lambda () (let ((a 'foo)) (declare (special a)) (print a))))
2015-08-11T04:10:36Z drmeister:  http://i.imgur.com/pjyLkp9.png
2015-08-11T04:10:59Z drmeister: Here is the HIR
2015-08-11T04:11:00Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/lOC9rWy.png
2015-08-11T04:11:31Z drmeister: There are two new instructions:  push-special-binding-instruction and pop-special-binding-instruction.
2015-08-11T04:12:06Z drmeister: The problem is that when I invoke a non-local exit out of the scope of the special binding the pop-special-binding is gone.
2015-08-11T04:12:11Z beach: It needs to be UNWIND-PROTECTed as well.
2015-08-11T04:12:19Z beach: Right.
2015-08-11T04:12:22Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::hir-form '(lambda () (block bar (let ((a 'foo)) (declare (special a)) (print a) (return-from bar nil)))))
2015-08-11T04:12:51Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/UhwXxoX.png
2015-08-11T04:12:52Z drmeister: Right
2015-08-11T04:13:03Z drmeister: It needs to be UNWIND-PROTECTed.
2015-08-11T04:13:19Z beach: Because if that complication, I recommend putting it in a function call-with-variable-bound.
2015-08-11T04:13:25Z drmeister: However, UNWIND-PROTECT is implemented by calling (funwind_protect protected-closure cleanup-closure)
2015-08-11T04:14:14Z drmeister: Here's the question: Am I forced to use:  (funwind_protect protected-closure cleanup-closure) for UNWIND-PROTECT?
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2015-08-11T04:14:53Z drmeister: There doesn't seem to be any way in Cleavir if I have a GO or RETURN-FROM that is local to a function, there is no way to call any cleanup forms.
2015-08-11T04:14:55Z beach: That's more of a Clasp question, I think.
2015-08-11T04:15:26Z beach: UNWIND-PROTECT is entirely up to the implementation, and not at all managed by Cleavir as I recall.
2015-08-11T04:15:33Z drmeister: It's not.
2015-08-11T04:16:06Z drmeister: Ok, then it's a Clasp issue.  Kind of like the landing-pad and invoke stuff I had to do for UNWIND-INSTRUCTION
2015-08-11T04:16:55Z beach: Yes, I think so.
2015-08-11T04:17:30Z drmeister: Ok.
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2015-08-11T04:21:00Z drmeister: I solved that problem by creating new landing-pad-enter, landing-pad-return and invoke, invoke-multiple-value-call instructions
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2015-08-11T04:21:42Z drmeister: The reason why I'm pondering this is I'm rewriting the bclasp compiler in a style that looks like the Cleavir compiler.
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2015-08-11T04:22:47Z drmeister: If I generate an AST that has no environment associated with it then I have to use funwind_protect and call_with_variable_bound.
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2015-08-11T04:23:27Z beach: I don't see how they are related.  You still have the run-time environment.
2015-08-11T04:23:37Z beach: That is where unwinding is handled.
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2015-08-11T04:25:09Z theos: morning beach
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2015-08-11T04:32:38Z drmeister: Hmm, how could I use the run-time environment in this case?   I can push the static binding onto a runtime stack, how would I ensure that they get popped off properly?
2015-08-11T04:33:00Z beach: In the same way you have always done it, I suppose.
2015-08-11T04:33:11Z beach: This is all a matter of how you manage your run-time environment.
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2015-08-11T04:34:44Z drmeister: The way I've done it before is that code is inserted to pop the bound symbol whenever the code left the scope of  the variable binding.
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2015-08-11T04:35:20Z beach: You must have used unwind-protect too, or else your implementation is incorrect.
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2015-08-11T04:36:14Z drmeister: I also inserted code in landing pads.   I inserted cleanup code in every path that left the scope.
2015-08-11T04:36:32Z beach: drmeister: The reason I recommend using the famous function is that then this function is where all the implementation-specific machinery is located.  It can then be written in assembler or whatever is needed, but the implementation-specific details would then not influence the way Cleavir does its job.
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2015-08-11T04:38:16Z drmeister: I understand that.  The reason I'm asking all of these questions is to understand the relative difficulty of implementing different implementation specific machinery.
2015-08-11T04:38:39Z beach: drmeister: If you start adding weird control structures to HIR, you must make sure that they are compatible with future optimizations such as type inference.
2015-08-11T04:38:42Z drmeister: The functions were trivial to implement.
2015-08-11T04:38:59Z drmeister: beach: I hear you.
2015-08-11T04:39:26Z beach: Well, as I recall, you have chosen to use shallow binding, right?
2015-08-11T04:39:36Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-08-11T04:40:04Z beach: So, first of all, that strategy is incompatible with multi-threading.
2015-08-11T04:40:12Z drmeister: Yes
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2015-08-11T04:40:46Z beach: If you are asking questions about relative difficulty of different strategies, you might think of that one as well
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2015-08-11T04:41:17Z drmeister: I didn't consider that shallow vs deep binding effect how these control structures are implemented.
2015-08-11T04:41:27Z beach: Hmm.
2015-08-11T04:41:38Z nyef: Deep binding isn't great, either.
2015-08-11T04:41:45Z beach: If you have deep binding, you only have to pop the stack to undo the binding.
2015-08-11T04:41:53Z nyef: Hence all of the TLS noise in SBCL.
2015-08-11T04:42:36Z drmeister: TLS?
2015-08-11T04:42:42Z beach: thread-local storage
2015-08-11T04:42:44Z nyef: (It's a mostly-shallow-binding system, but with a thread-local vector for symbol values that can reflect back to the "global" symbol value.)
2015-08-11T04:43:10Z drmeister: Ah, I recall discussing it with beach a long time ago.
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2015-08-11T04:43:46Z beach: It can get pretty messy.
2015-08-11T04:44:13Z beach: nyef: As I recall, Dan Barlow designed the SBCL technique, right?
2015-08-11T04:44:55Z nyef: It wouldn't surprise me, but I don't know for sure.
2015-08-11T04:45:05Z beach: nyef: If so, that was as a result of discussions with me at LSM/RMLL 2000 or 2001
2015-08-11T04:45:05Z nyef: IIRC, he did most of the initial thread work.
2015-08-11T04:46:26Z nyef: I was rather surprised a few years ago when I found that most of the system wasn't actually thread-safe, and that it was the conservative GC that was allowing it to function.
2015-08-11T04:46:42Z beach: Interesting!
2015-08-11T04:46:44Z nyef: Since largely fixed, though.
2015-08-11T04:47:00Z nyef: (Okay, not "most of the system", but certainly the runtime.)
2015-08-11T04:48:54Z beach: drmeister: The basic issue here is that with multi-threading, the tradition is to make the global value shared between threads, and the subsequent bindings thread-local.
2015-08-11T04:49:13Z beach: But maybe you knew this.
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2015-08-11T04:50:46Z drmeister: Right, and I see that I'm stuck in a "single-threaded" mindset here.
2015-08-11T04:51:17Z beach: That is entirely your decision though.  You may well decide that Clasp should forever be single threaded.
2015-08-11T04:52:05Z drmeister: But even if I switched to a thread-local deep-binding approach, where would the code to insert the instruction to pop the binding go?
2015-08-11T04:52:15Z beach: I am just saying that you are about to modify HIR by adding several new instruction types in order to implement a system that is required because Clasp uses shallow binding which is incompatible with multi-threading.
2015-08-11T04:53:04Z beach: drmeister: What I am about to say is going to be dismissed as inefficient, but here goes...
2015-08-11T04:54:10Z beach: drmeister: At the moment, at least, in SICL, each stack frame points to the top of the run-time environment containing bindings.  This pointer is duplicated when a function is called.  When a special variable is bound, a binding is pushed.
2015-08-11T04:54:20Z beach: drmeister: So when the function exits, the binding is undone.
2015-08-11T04:54:31Z beach: No need to "pop the binding" or "undo the binding".
2015-08-11T04:54:46Z beach: drmeister: Notice, this is NOT a recommendation.
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2015-08-11T04:55:07Z beach: Because, if I recommend something, I am going to get remarks about the performance.
2015-08-11T04:55:21Z beach: I am just saying how it might work if you use a different strategy.
2015-08-11T04:55:39Z CatToloo: drmeister: my first exposure to your work is this video; I find your work magnificent.  Bravo.  I hope all plentiful funding of your projects.  I daresay the world can hardly wait for the benefits of your work.  Congratulations.
2015-08-11T04:55:39Z beach: Again, these are implementation-specific questions.
2015-08-11T04:56:32Z drmeister: CatToloo: Thanks!
2015-08-11T04:56:51Z CatToloo: :)
2015-08-11T04:58:11Z beach: We need statistics about how OFTEN special bindings are accessed.  Not how frequent they are in static code, but how often they are accessed at run-time, say per billion lines of code executed.  We also need statistics bout the average depth of the binding accessed.  Only then can we tell how efficient different strategies are.
2015-08-11T04:58:40Z drmeister: I hear you.
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2015-08-11T05:02:19Z beach: drmeister: Intuition about what implementation strategy affects performance is very frequently wrong, so I try not to guess until I have the statistics.
2015-08-11T05:03:12Z nyef: beach: Also note that this is going to depend quite strongly on the code being run.
2015-08-11T05:03:18Z beach: Definitely.
2015-08-11T05:03:47Z drmeister: beach: With your latest suggestion, can the pointer in a frame get out of whack if there are special-bindings pushed but not popped within the function due to a local return-from or local go?
2015-08-11T05:03:53Z beach: drmeister: This is also why I often choose the strategy that is the simplest and/or the easiest to maintain, unless I think I can trust my intuition.  I might have to revise that later of course, but I think this way is preferable to doing a lot of work up front that turns out to have a minor impact on performance.
2015-08-11T05:04:09Z beach: drmeister: I think I was clear that it is NOT a suggestion.
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2015-08-11T05:04:50Z nyef: It's gone one AM. I think I need to crash.
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2015-08-11T05:05:13Z beach: drmeister: The trick is to make a function call for each binding so that they don't get out of sync.
2015-08-11T05:05:16Z drmeister: beach: Yes, you were very clear.
2015-08-11T05:05:40Z drmeister: It sounds similar to something I was thinking about earlier.
2015-08-11T05:06:26Z drmeister: Ok, so it still uses one function call for each binding.
2015-08-11T05:06:57Z drmeister: Ok, I'm pretty much sold on the one function call for each binding and one function call for each unwind-protect.
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2015-08-11T05:07:46Z drmeister: I think it should be straightforward to switch from my current shallow-binding approach to a thread-local deep binding with globals.
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2015-08-11T05:08:07Z drmeister: Can I ask you some questions then about removing stack frames for these functions from the backtrace?
2015-08-11T05:08:07Z beach: drmeister: You will be criticized....
2015-08-11T05:08:24Z drmeister: Well, this is what I've already implemented.
2015-08-11T05:08:59Z drmeister: And it doesn't really matter what I implement for bclasp because it just needs to be a little faster so I don't go insane constantly building cclasp.
2015-08-11T05:09:28Z beach: Hold on...
2015-08-11T05:09:38Z beach: The run-time environment is not specific to a particular compiler.
2015-08-11T05:09:48Z beach: It needs to work with both compilers and with the interpreter.
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2015-08-11T05:10:15Z drmeister: Yes - I think I have that.
2015-08-11T05:10:42Z drmeister: Currently.  I'll keep that in mind though when I consider switching the runtime environment.
2015-08-11T05:13:03Z drmeister: Currently I have a runtime binding stack for special variables that I use to save/restore the value of the variable outside of the scope of the binding.
2015-08-11T05:13:34Z drmeister: I use that stack for the interpreter, bclasp generated code and cclasp generated code. That is what you mean - correct?
2015-08-11T05:13:53Z beach: Yes.
2015-08-11T05:14:31Z beach: And also for things like signal handlers, restarts, etc, unless you implemented those using special variables.
2015-08-11T05:14:54Z beach: Oh, and UNWIND-PROTECTs.
2015-08-11T05:15:12Z beach: And CATCH tags.
2015-08-11T05:15:15Z drmeister: What I was referring to this morning was to use the BIND-AST AST node to generate a call to an intrinsic function that would do call_with_variable_bound and it would not show up on the backtrace.
2015-08-11T05:15:26Z drmeister: restarts are implemented using special variables
2015-08-11T05:15:51Z drmeister: The catch tags have another stack.
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2015-08-11T05:16:37Z beach: It is still part of the run-time environment used by everything, independently of which compiler and interpreter is used.
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2015-08-11T05:17:32Z drmeister: Your comment this morning (my morning) that using BIND-AST to call an intrinsic function would not speed things up and would complicate things by adding a new HIR instruction to carry out call_with_variable_bound.  That taught me something.
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2015-08-11T05:18:04Z drmeister: You suggested instead to just edit the backtrace to remove the call_with_variable_bound frames - is that correct?
2015-08-11T05:18:26Z beach: My real suggestion would be "get over it".
2015-08-11T05:18:35Z beach: That minimizes the amount of work.
2015-08-11T05:18:54Z beach: But if you insist that seeing those stack frames is a big problem,
2015-08-11T05:19:05Z beach: then my second-best suggest is "don't show them".
2015-08-11T05:19:08Z drmeister: Really?  There are a lot of them.
2015-08-11T05:19:48Z drmeister: If it's like the parentheses of Common Lisp, I got over those.
2015-08-11T05:19:53Z beach: OK, how about "get over it, at least until you have solved the 1000 or so more important problems you have at the moment".
2015-08-11T05:20:26Z beach: But those are just my suggestions, since you asked.
2015-08-11T05:20:42Z beach: It is up to you how you spend your time and what you think is important.
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2015-08-11T05:21:32Z drmeister: Well, (1) I'm debugging code in cclasp and those frames annoyed me and I thought I could quickly remove them.
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2015-08-11T05:23:03Z drmeister: (2) I'm working on one of the more important problems, "speeding up bclasp" and in working with the bclasp AST I realized that I would have to switch the way I implement UNWIND-PROTECT and special variable bindings to the same approach that I use with Cleavir (these special functions).
2015-08-11T05:25:01Z drmeister: You have the experience of decades of working with compilers, I don't.  I often do things without fully understanding all of the consequences.
2015-08-11T05:25:13Z drmeister: I deeply value your opinion and your advice.
2015-08-11T05:26:09Z drmeister: I didn't ask to use Cleavir to just get a compiler.  I wanted a crash course, trial-by-fire, in compiler writing.
2015-08-11T05:26:41Z drmeister: So I'm exploring.
2015-08-11T05:27:04Z beach: That's fine.
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2015-08-11T05:28:05Z beach: For your information, for SICL, I am definitely planning a "user mode" for backtraces where only explicit function calls are shown.
2015-08-11T05:28:19Z beach: Even in SBCL there is too much noise in the backtraces.
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2015-08-11T05:28:37Z beach: You can see how things like generic dispatch was implemented by calling functions, etc.
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2015-08-11T05:28:57Z drmeister: Oh, that sounds nice.  I have that as well.
2015-08-11T05:28:59Z beach: The application programmer would consider that to be noise.  At least I do when I write application programs.
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2015-08-11T05:29:09Z drmeister: Yes, exactly.
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2015-08-11T05:29:39Z beach: So the way special-variable bindings are done would be such an implementation detail that I don't think the application programmer cares about.
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2015-08-11T05:30:07Z drmeister: I don't know if you care about this but I have some suggestions for BIND-AST.  I think it hasn't been updated for the new way you hoist load-time-value wrt the symbol that BIND-AST binds.
2015-08-11T05:30:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/yJwD6LAv/
2015-08-11T05:30:17Z beach: So I was fairly serious when I suggested a special variable named *show-stack-frames-due-to-calls-to-call-with-variable-bound-p*
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2015-08-11T05:31:03Z drmeister: Yes, I liked that but I was still blinded by the vision of implementing new instructions.
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2015-08-11T05:31:21Z beach: Thanks for the suggestion for bind-ast.
2015-08-11T05:31:29Z drmeister: No problem.
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2015-08-11T05:33:29Z drmeister: This user mode for the backtrace, what other frames would you remove?   funwind_protect?  funcall?  apply?
2015-08-11T05:33:49Z drmeister: I guess anything that annoys me?
2015-08-11T05:33:52Z beach: I haven't really given it that much thought.
2015-08-11T05:34:28Z beach: To me, it is one of those "I will do this one day after I solve the million problems that are more urgent" problems.
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2015-08-11T05:35:06Z beach: You can't just base it on the type of frame I think.
2015-08-11T05:35:25Z beach: If the application programmer wrote FUNCALL, you probably want that frame to show up.
2015-08-11T05:35:45Z drmeister: I was trying to build molecules and spending a lot of time crawling through the backtraces.  It doesn't help that I don't have arguments in my backtraces - that's one of the 1000 problems that I am also working on.
2015-08-11T05:35:51Z beach: If the system did FUNCALL because of some implementation decision, you probably don't want that frame to show up.
2015-08-11T05:36:22Z drmeister: Hmm, I wonder how I'd tell the difference.
2015-08-11T05:37:15Z beach: I would think by looking at the return address of the frame.
2015-08-11T05:37:33Z beach: But, like I said, I haven't thought about it very much.
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2015-08-11T05:39:58Z drmeister: Thank's for the feedback.
2015-08-11T05:40:10Z drmeister: I'm speaking to the LispNYC users group tomorrow at Google New York.  It's my third Google site in as many months.
2015-08-11T05:41:40Z drmeister: I wish I had a card that they would punch for every site I visit.  Then once I visited them all I could get a free Google search.
2015-08-11T05:44:32Z beach: drmeister: If I were you...
2015-08-11T05:44:40Z Fare: drmeister, there should be a different android doll for every site, just like there is a different hello kitty for every japanese city.
2015-08-11T05:45:01Z beach: I would implement a function named (say) DISPLAY-THIS-STACK-FRAME-P (STACK-FRAME).
2015-08-11T05:45:28Z beach: Then I would write a line inside that function that checks whether it is one of the stack frames you want to hide.
2015-08-11T05:45:53Z beach: Then you can go on with your life until you want to decide which FUNCALLs to show and which ones to hide.
2015-08-11T05:46:00Z drmeister: That sounds like a great idea.
2015-08-11T05:46:02Z beach: Which is a must less pressing problem.
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2015-08-11T05:48:51Z drmeister: What have you been interested in the last couple of days? The rewrite rules?
2015-08-11T05:49:44Z beach: Sort of.  Right now I am implementing a simplified version of Kildall's algorithm that works only on lexical variables, with the purpose of detecting equivalent ones.
2015-08-11T05:50:19Z beach: I can use the result to determine whether a test is redundant, and then apply the rewrite rules.
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2015-08-11T05:51:12Z beach: I could also use the result to write a correct version of ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES if that's what I want to do.
2015-08-11T05:51:43Z beach: Turns out, I probably don't want to, because those temporaries no longer influence performance that much.
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2015-08-11T05:56:09Z beach: drmeister: I don't think there is such a thing as a crash-course in compiler writing.  It is a question of understanding half a century of research.
2015-08-11T05:56:51Z beach: ... with emphasis on "understanding", because the validity of the result changes over time as our computers change.
2015-08-11T06:02:17Z beach: Though maybe it's just that I am incapable of imagining such a course.
2015-08-11T06:02:18Z drmeister: Well, I've learned a whole heck of a lot more than I knew six months ago.
2015-08-11T06:04:05Z beach: That's good, but more might be required.
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2015-08-11T06:05:02Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-11T06:05:17Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-08-11T06:12:06Z jackdaniel: Fare: there is no bug, with latest make-build fix
2015-08-11T06:12:15Z jackdaniel: all works as expected
2015-08-11T06:12:18Z beach: Anyway, Time to get to work!
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2015-08-11T06:14:25Z Fare: jackdaniel, even :ld-flags, :prologue, :epilogue ?
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2015-08-11T06:15:11Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm testing it right now
2015-08-11T06:15:42Z jackdaniel: I've changed a little examples/build/* files to explicitly use asdf:make-build
2015-08-11T06:15:57Z jackdaniel: and without ld-flags it fails, with ld-flags provided it creates executable which works
2015-08-11T06:16:19Z jackdaniel: prologue and epilogue both work as well
2015-08-11T06:16:29Z Fare: ok
2015-08-11T06:16:45Z Fare: does it work with (asdf:operate 'asdf:program-op ...) ?
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2015-08-11T06:21:31Z jackdaniel: no, not really
2015-08-11T06:21:52Z jackdaniel: unless I call it wrong way
2015-08-11T06:22:21Z jackdaniel: (asdf:operate 'asdf:program-op :hellow :ld-flags "ld-flags-which-are-necessary-to-work")
2015-08-11T06:26:21Z jackdaniel: s/unless/however maybe/
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2015-08-11T06:35:38Z Fare: it's not wrong to add flags to operate
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2015-08-11T06:36:36Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying it's wrong, I just say that it doesn't work that way
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2015-08-11T07:31:49Z jackdaniel: Fare: I've send you mail and made bug-report with minimal test on launchpad
2015-08-11T07:33:19Z jeti`: How do I pass parameters to a function called by ~/.../ in a format string?  The first four parameters are stream, format, colon-used-p, at-used-p.  I can use all except format.  This specified in the directive accordind to hyperspec.  Its the same with additional parameters.  I have to specify them in the directive.  But how?
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2015-08-11T08:08:17Z jackdaniel: jeti`: experiment with (defun xxx (a b c d) (format t "~A ~A ~A ~A" a b c d)) (format t "~/xxx/ ~A ~A" 'one 'two 'three 'four 'five 'six)
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2015-08-11T08:10:00Z jackdaniel: or even (format a "~A ~A ~A" b c d)
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2015-08-11T08:11:42Z pjb: or: (format t "~1,2,3,,5:@/xxx/ ~A ~A" 'one 'two 'three 'four 'five 'six)
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2015-08-11T08:12:34Z jackdaniel: yap
2015-08-11T08:12:38Z pjb: with: (defun cl-user::xxx (a b c d &rest e) (format t "~@{~A~^ ~}" a b c d e))
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2015-08-11T08:14:02Z pjb: and: (format t "~1,V,V,,5:@/xxx/ ~A ~A" 'one 'two 'three 'four 'five 'six)
2015-08-11T08:15:06Z pjb: Notice how literal argument type to format specifiers are limited to integers, characters and nil, you can pass any object with V.
2015-08-11T08:15:24Z jeti`: thx, I see
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2015-08-11T08:41:04Z ghard: Umm.. has anybody tried to use iterate from quicklisp lately on sbcl?
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2015-08-11T08:50:39Z H4ns: ghard: i loaded it yesterday, it worked.
2015-08-11T08:51:32Z ghard: I'm getting an error in  #'(LAMBDA (!"var" ITERATE::TEMPVAR)
2015-08-11T08:51:32Z ghard: ;       (UNLESS (MEMBER !"var" ITERATE::REFD-!VARS) (LIST ITERATE::TEMPVAR)))
2015-08-11T08:51:53Z ghard:  Required argument is not a symbol: !"var"
2015-08-11T08:52:14Z ghard: in sharpL-reader
2015-08-11T08:52:37Z ghard: Wondering if this one is a side-effect of the latest incompatible change in sbcl.
2015-08-11T08:52:40Z H4ns: sounds as if the required reader macros are not enabled
2015-08-11T08:52:56Z ghard: Aha
2015-08-11T08:54:01Z PuercoPop: ghard: which sbcl version are you using? I'm on a recent git version and iterate loads fine.
2015-08-11T08:54:54Z ghard: 1.2.14
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2015-08-11T08:56:50Z ghard: But - I'll take the devel environment down and restart just to see there's nothing tainting the reader macros.
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2015-08-11T09:01:55Z ghard: Okay. It quickloads (as lucerne dep) on a fresh environment just fine. Excuses for the noise.
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2015-08-11T09:06:43Z ghard: I think it was Wilbur that was messing with the reader.
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2015-08-11T09:29:32Z mobius-eng: Hi all
2015-08-11T09:30:07Z mobius-eng: Does anybody have a problem with CLISP and IOLIB.OS from QUICKLISP?
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2015-08-11T09:42:29Z PuercoPop: mobius-eng: have you installed libfixposix? What is the error message?
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2015-08-11T09:43:15Z mobius-eng: (ql:quickload :iolib.os)
2015-08-11T09:43:15Z mobius-eng: To load "iolib.os":
2015-08-11T09:43:15Z mobius-eng:   Load 1 ASDF system:
2015-08-11T09:43:17Z mobius-eng:     iolib.os
2015-08-11T09:43:19Z mobius-eng: ; Loading "iolib.os"
2015-08-11T09:43:21Z mobius-eng: To load "iolib/os":
2015-08-11T09:43:23Z mobius-eng:   Load 4 ASDF systems:
2015-08-11T09:43:25Z mobius-eng:     alexandria cffi split-sequence trivial-features
2015-08-11T09:43:27Z mobius-eng:   Install 1 Quicklisp release:
2015-08-11T09:43:29Z mobius-eng:     iolib
2015-08-11T09:43:31Z mobius-eng: ; Loading "iolib/os"
2015-08-11T09:43:33Z mobius-eng: *** - Component "iolib/os" not found
2015-08-11T09:43:47Z mobius-eng: CLISP somehow does not see iolib/os system...
2015-08-11T09:43:53Z PuercoPop: mobius-eng: use paste.lisp.org to paste
2015-08-11T09:44:05Z mobius-eng: ok
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2015-08-11T09:46:34Z mobius-eng: http://paste.lisp.org/+3AF8
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2015-08-11T09:51:05Z PuercoPop: Hmm there is something funny. Recently iolib change to using / instead of . in the system names and has some asdf2 compat working for the names that use dot. Could you try loading iolib/os to see if the problem is not in the compatibility code?
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2015-08-11T09:57:24Z mobius-eng: It breaks with the same error
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2015-08-11T09:57:51Z mobius-eng: I think iolib.os causes loading iolib/os and there it breaks
2015-08-11T09:59:10Z PuercoPop: are you using quicklisps version? could you type (ql:where-is-system "iolib.os") and with a / in the repl?
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2015-08-11T10:01:42Z mobius-eng: Interesting: for iolib.os it gives the path /Users/alexey/.clisp-quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iolib-20150709-git/asdf2-compat/
2015-08-11T10:01:52Z mobius-eng: but for iolib/os it's NIL
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2015-08-11T10:02:27Z PuercoPop: ok, and could you check for iolib.asd in the -git directory?
2015-08-11T10:02:36Z PuercoPop: (also try loading just iolib)
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2015-08-11T10:06:34Z jackdaniel: hm, quicklisp handles symbolic links across devices?
2015-08-11T10:06:59Z mobius-eng: Ok, so the problem seems to be that CLISP is using ASDF2
2015-08-11T10:07:35Z mobius-eng: 2.26 to be precise
2015-08-11T10:07:56Z PuercoPop: shouldn't be, as it says asdf2-compat, but upgrading asdf wouldn't hurt.
2015-08-11T10:08:24Z mobius-eng: iolib tries to load in compatibility mode, but iolib.os.asd just says it depends on iolib/os
2015-08-11T10:09:15Z mobius-eng: which is defined in iolib.asd file that prevents from loading if ASDF is lower than 2.31.1
2015-08-11T10:09:24Z PuercoPop: ahh
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2015-08-11T10:11:38Z jackdaniel: 1
2015-08-11T10:11:53Z mobius-eng: Is there a way to update ASDF in CLISP?
2015-08-11T10:13:18Z PuercoPop: yeah
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2015-08-11T10:14:05Z PuercoPop: Just clone asdf follow the instructions and add the build/asdf.lisp to your rc file, I think it is .clisprc in clisp
2015-08-11T10:14:26Z PuercoPop: (the instructions is running make)
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2015-08-11T10:22:58Z fe[nl]ix: mobius-eng: you need a rather recent ASDF
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2015-08-11T10:23:10Z fe[nl]ix: I should update that version check
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2015-08-11T10:30:16Z loke: How did you manage to load iolib from CLISP? I thought it didn't work, since clisp comes with a too old ASDF.
2015-08-11T10:30:27Z loke: I get an error "iolib.asd: You need ASDF >= 2.31.1
2015-08-11T10:30:28Z loke: "
2015-08-11T10:30:38Z fe[nl]ix: I stopped using Clisp 3-4 years ago
2015-08-11T10:30:58Z loke has never actually _used_ clisp, but I sometimes test things with it.
2015-08-11T10:31:57Z mobius-eng: Ok, ASDF updated
2015-08-11T10:32:24Z mobius-eng: Now I'm getting "CFFI requires CLISP compiled with dynamic FFI support" but for this I need to sort out my local CLISP installation
2015-08-11T10:32:35Z loke: Also CFFI is broken on CLISP
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2015-08-11T10:33:19Z mobius-eng: I am probing CLISP for educational purposes: its command line interface is user-friendlier out of the box compared to SBCL/CCL/CMUCL
2015-08-11T10:33:40Z loke: mobius-eng: That should be a non-issue since you should be using SLIME.
2015-08-11T10:33:43Z mobius-eng: Of course, it's all doesn't matter if one uses SLIME
2015-08-11T10:34:24Z jackdaniel: loke: so you say, that indirect dependency for cl programming is emacs, ay? (:
2015-08-11T10:34:35Z loke: jackdaniel: Pretty much, yeah.
2015-08-11T10:34:37Z jackdaniel: or vim if someone really *must*
2015-08-11T10:34:58Z mobius-eng: That's an issue: if you teach a class you'd have to start with Emacs
2015-08-11T10:35:09Z jackdaniel: mobius-eng: I agree with you
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2015-08-11T10:35:42Z mobius-eng: not a bad thing in long shot, but it is a very heavy load right at the beginning
2015-08-11T10:36:10Z loke: mobius-eng: True, but how do you expect the users to actually learn to use CL if all they know is the CLISP command line?
2015-08-11T10:36:15Z mobius-eng: Anyway, now I stuck with CFFI problem on CLISP...
2015-08-11T10:36:26Z jackdaniel: - it is cold here… - that should be a non-issue, since you should live in brazil
2015-08-11T10:36:28Z H4ns: what's the problem with that?  emacs supports arrow keys and delete and most other keys that one would want to use.  i don't get how emacs is said to be a "problem"
2015-08-11T10:36:50Z jackdaniel: original question was about cffi and clisp, not "what editor should I use"
2015-08-11T10:37:00Z H4ns: jackdaniel: so?
2015-08-11T10:37:02Z loke: mobius-eng: Like I said, CFFI is irrevocably problem on CLISP (but you will only see it for systems that require libffi, which is not so many)
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2015-08-11T10:37:25Z jackdaniel: H4ns: that saying "you ought to use emacs - it's easy!" is irrevelant
2015-08-11T10:37:27Z loke: s/problem/broken/
2015-08-11T10:38:00Z loke: Besides, if someone really want to torment themselves by using the commandline, they could always use SBCL with rlwrap.
2015-08-11T10:38:05Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it is not, because they said that they chose clisp because it has readline.  that is the wrong motivation to choose a cl implementation.
2015-08-11T10:39:34Z jackdaniel: arguably
2015-08-11T10:39:53Z mobius-eng: when you teach freshmen about computation you want minimum destruction. Of course, Emacs+SLIME is the way to go in long term
2015-08-11T10:40:26Z H4ns: mobius-eng: if you want to teach freshmen about computation, maybe cl is not the best choice.
2015-08-11T10:40:41Z H4ns: mobius-eng: cl is not a very clean and beginner friendly environment.
2015-08-11T10:40:52Z Fare: mobius-eng, I don't particularly recommend clisp, but the latest asdf (say, release branch from git) has a tools/install-asdf script that will let you override clisp's ancient asdf.
2015-08-11T10:40:59Z mobius-eng: There is truth in it
2015-08-11T10:41:30Z mobius-eng: Scheme is usually the one recommended
2015-08-11T10:41:47Z mobius-eng: And DrRacket would be the easiest to use
2015-08-11T10:41:48Z Fare: cl has a lot of cruft that makes it not beginner-friendly; but it's getting better... except that clisp is unmaintained (no release since 2010).
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2015-08-11T10:42:12Z Fare: so clisp is a bad choice for a cl, these days
2015-08-11T10:42:21Z Fare: unless you want to become maintainer
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2015-08-11T10:42:31Z jackdaniel: mobius-eng: if you want something "readline-like" and different implementation, you may try lineedit
2015-08-11T10:42:34Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/linedit/
2015-08-11T10:43:00Z mobius-eng: Thanks, jackdaniel
2015-08-11T10:43:07Z mobius-eng: I will look into it
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2015-08-11T10:43:41Z Fare: DrRacket is great and has lots of goodies. If you love speed, clos and/or that full-on dynamic language feel, CL still has an edge, but Racket is impressive these days.
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2015-08-11T10:44:03Z Fare: there's a cl-readline, too
2015-08-11T10:45:06Z mobius-eng: DrRacket is great at the beginning but becomes a bit limiting later, including limited generics (compared to CLOS)
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2015-08-11T10:45:39Z mobius-eng: Also, the tools we are developing are in CL, so the idea is we can get postgrads who can continue work
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2015-08-11T10:48:26Z mobius-eng: Ok, thanks for the advice
2015-08-11T10:48:37Z mobius-eng: old ASDF in CLIPS is solved
2015-08-11T10:48:50Z mobius-eng: but broken CFFI is still a problem
2015-08-11T10:49:11Z mobius-eng: I will look at cl-readline and linedit
2015-08-11T10:50:00Z PuercoPop: mobius-eng: If your University is a not for profit, you could give AllegroCL a try? Otherwise your best bet is emacs/slime
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2015-08-11T10:51:58Z mobius-eng: It is one of the options (at least for education purposes)
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2015-08-11T10:53:12Z H4ns: i think the allegro cl repl is pretty nice, but it does not have a line editor either.
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2015-08-11T10:55:26Z luis: mobius-eng: you need to compile CLISP with dynamic ffi enabled. (or find a suitable binary)
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2015-08-11T10:56:07Z luis: loke: what CLISP/CFFI problem are you talking about?
2015-08-11T10:56:10Z jackdaniel: luis: have you seen updated PR?
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2015-08-11T10:56:36Z luis: jackdaniel: yes!
2015-08-11T10:57:03Z jackdaniel: ok, great, was worried that you missed it :p
2015-08-11T10:57:42Z rritoch: What is the expected solution for formatting ansi compliance with regards to #\No-break_space ?
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2015-08-11T11:01:11Z loke: luis: Well, CFFI uses libffi to handle the case where a C function returns (or acceps as argument) a structure (as opposed to a pointer to a structure)
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2015-08-11T11:02:36Z loke: Now, libffi will fail to load because the code to read the result from "pkg-config libffi --cflags" will fail
2015-08-11T11:03:02Z loke: It returns the wrong value for some CL implementations (including CLISP and ECL)
2015-08-11T11:04:36Z luis: loke: I see. Care to open a bug report about it?
2015-08-11T11:04:40Z loke: I did
2015-08-11T11:04:47Z loke: For ECL
2015-08-11T11:04:53Z loke: u
2015-08-11T11:04:57Z loke: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/89
2015-08-11T11:05:13Z loke: That resulted in Daniel submitting a fix for CFFI
2015-08-11T11:05:24Z luis: I guess, that's been fixed, then. :)
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2015-08-11T11:05:29Z loke: For ECL, yes.
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2015-08-11T11:05:51Z luis: How about CLISP? Can we fix it on the CFFI side somehow?
2015-08-11T11:05:53Z jackdaniel: yup, that was me  :):)
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2015-08-11T11:06:18Z luis: jackdaniel: merged your PR, btw. Thanks! :)
2015-08-11T11:06:29Z jackdaniel: luis: I can do it, but after weekend -- it's about receiving result of ext:run-command in clisp and feeding parse-output with it
2015-08-11T11:06:32Z jackdaniel: in invoke
2015-08-11T11:06:33Z loke: So, the same fix needs to be done for CLISP
2015-08-11T11:06:50Z jackdaniel: luis: yeah, got mail, thanks for merging
2015-08-11T11:07:11Z loke: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1472926
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2015-08-11T11:08:07Z loke: Hmm, jackdaniel I can't find your fix. I thought it was mentioned in the bug?
2015-08-11T11:08:29Z loke: My bug report is still marked as unassigned with no comments on it other than mine.
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2015-08-11T11:08:41Z jackdaniel: I've fixed it month ago and did pull request on github
2015-08-11T11:09:01Z jackdaniel: didn't know that cffi had same bug *anywhere*
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2015-08-11T11:09:27Z luis: loke: added a comment saying that the bug is applicable to CLISP as well.
2015-08-11T11:09:28Z loke: Oh :-)
2015-08-11T11:09:41Z jackdaniel: hm, that wouldn't be trivial with clisp
2015-08-11T11:09:51Z jackdaniel: when you supply it with :output stream, then it doesn't return exit code
2015-08-11T11:10:03Z loke: Yes, discovery of this bug taught me just how rare returning of structures in C libraries really is.
2015-08-11T11:10:25Z loke: jackdaniel: Wow. How stupid is that...
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2015-08-11T11:10:35Z luis: loke: Daniel's fix is featured in the release notes even! :) https://github.com/cffi/cffi/wiki/NEWS
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2015-08-11T11:10:49Z loke: luis: Cool.
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2015-08-11T11:11:09Z jackdaniel: not stupid at all, run-program was just a hack I suspect, to allow calling external programs - it's outside ansi scope
2015-08-11T11:11:48Z loke: Speaking of ECL. I can't for the life of me find a link to the git location on the gitlab page. How do I find out what to "git checkout"?
2015-08-11T11:12:03Z jackdaniel: click "project"
2015-08-11T11:12:11Z jackdaniel: on left toolbar
2015-08-11T11:12:17Z jackdaniel: and there this should be
2015-08-11T11:12:32Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git # or just use this
2015-08-11T11:13:18Z loke: I see "Home", "Milestones", "Issues", "Merge requetss" and "Members" on the left toolbar.
2015-08-11T11:13:28Z loke: No "project"
2015-08-11T11:13:44Z loke: I'm looking at this page: https://gitlab.com/groups/embeddable-common-lisp
2015-08-11T11:14:16Z jackdaniel: on the right you have link to Embeddable Common-Lisp / ECL
2015-08-11T11:14:18Z loke: Oooh... Pasting that link showed me the problem... "groups"
2015-08-11T11:14:55Z jackdaniel: spec streams
2015-08-11T11:15:01Z jackdaniel: minion: spec streams
2015-08-11T11:15:01Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
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2015-08-11T11:15:08Z jackdaniel: :(
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2015-08-11T11:17:59Z loke: Oh, got a bug update email :-)
2015-08-11T11:18:03Z loke: Thanks luis
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2015-08-11T11:23:33Z jackdaniel: problem with clisp requres api change or something less obvious than ecl I'm afraid
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2015-08-11T11:25:42Z loke: Right
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2015-08-11T11:26:08Z jackdaniel: so I won't do it (regarding previous commitment)
2015-08-11T11:26:21Z loke: But how about at least have CFFI raise a more sensible error when it happens?
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2015-08-11T11:27:05Z loke: Right now, the error makes very little sense until you dig into the implementation of INVOKE. I think it should at least say something like "This library can't be loaded on CLISP because libffi is not supported"
2015-08-11T11:27:35Z jackdaniel: you either have indicator, that error occured, or command result
2015-08-11T11:27:36Z loke: Or, perhaps hardcode some common include paths which will let it work on most platforms, if pkg-config can't be run?
2015-08-11T11:28:10Z jackdaniel: and funny thing is that clisp probably works ok, problem is that (as far as I remember), something depends on actual result of pkg-config to grab flags for build
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2015-08-11T11:29:12Z jackdaniel: and it crashes, because it tries to feed some later command with "<see above>" instead of correct flags
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2015-08-11T11:31:00Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes. It runs pkg-config using INVOKE and the output from the pkg-config command is fed to the groverller cc invocation
2015-08-11T11:31:34Z jackdaniel: so it's not libffi problem
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2015-08-11T11:31:39Z loke: The problem is that since the CLISP version does not actually acpture the output of the command (because it can't), it somply returns the hardcoded string "see above"
2015-08-11T11:32:02Z loke: jackdaniel: No. It's a pkg-config problem. It's just exposed when libffi is used
2015-08-11T11:32:11Z jackdaniel: oh, ok, I misunderstood you
2015-08-11T11:32:28Z loke: Actually, I'm thinking if INVOKE simply returned a blanbks tring it would probably work, as long as libffi is in the default incldue path :-)
2015-08-11T11:33:14Z loke: Anyway. I need to leave the office now.
2015-08-11T11:33:20Z loke: It's alreadt 19:30
2015-08-11T11:34:46Z jackdaniel: if you have control over invoke, then you can call pkg-config twice
2015-08-11T11:35:00Z jackdaniel: nvm last one
2015-08-11T11:35:08Z jackdaniel: I'm wrong :p
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2015-08-11T11:47:03Z jackdaniel: luis: is it acceptable to add cl-fad dependency to cffi?
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2015-08-11T12:01:09Z jackdaniel: loke: fix is in cffi PR page
2015-08-11T12:01:16Z jackdaniel: luis: ↑
2015-08-11T12:02:58Z PuercoPop: fe[nl]ix: Btw the link in the github description of iolib is broken. It should point to project/iolib but points to projectS/iolib
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2015-08-11T12:15:07Z SilentEcho: Hi
2015-08-11T12:15:58Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-08-11T12:16:20Z SilentEcho: I'm fairly new to writing CL. I'm looking into writing a library to consume an API I'm familiar with. One of the things I'm trying to understand is how asdf works and how I can use it to make my library portable.
2015-08-11T12:16:40Z SilentEcho: Can anyone give me... not so much a technical doc as I've read that, but a canonical explanation of how best to use it.
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2015-08-11T12:17:26Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "consume an API I'm familiar with" ?
2015-08-11T12:17:27Z Xach: SilentEcho: with a small project, it's pretty easy to make a system definition.
2015-08-11T12:17:43Z Xach: SilentEcho: how best to use it depends on how complicated your needs are. for simple stuff it's simple.
2015-08-11T12:18:01Z SilentEcho: jackdaniel: Not particularly relevant but I'm basically wrapping a JSON API in CL functions & CLOS objects
2015-08-11T12:18:21Z SilentEcho: Xach: It's a fairly simple use case
2015-08-11T12:18:23Z Xach: SilentEcho: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html under "Reorganize" has some example system definitions
2015-08-11T12:18:30Z SilentEcho: Thanks
2015-08-11T12:19:00Z jackdaniel: SilentEcho: to get simplest skeleton possible you may use quickproject
2015-08-11T12:19:16Z jackdaniel: oh, it's there
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2015-08-11T12:23:32Z luis: jackdaniel: I'm not sure. It used to be sensible to avoid many dependencies in libraries. Quicklisp has made it the disadvantages much less obvious. :)
2015-08-11T12:23:57Z Xach: madhu was right :~(
2015-08-11T12:24:22Z luis: Yeah, it's all part of a big conspiracy.
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2015-08-11T12:24:58Z jackdaniel: luis: yes, that's why I asked
2015-08-11T12:25:05Z jackdaniel: I randomized it by hand ^_^
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2015-08-11T12:25:15Z jackdaniel: I wanted to get "random-file" function from there
2015-08-11T12:25:25Z jackdaniel: or temp-file, don't remember
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2015-08-11T12:34:19Z Fare: jackdaniel, please use uiop instead of cl-fad
2015-08-11T12:35:10Z Fare: cl-fad is not as portable, not as available, and not as robust
2015-08-11T12:35:56Z jackdaniel: Fare: used neither, just fixed grovellers %invoke for clisp - just remembered that cl-fad has open-temp, or something of that kind
2015-08-11T12:36:12Z Fare: oh, and use uiop:run-program
2015-08-11T12:36:23Z Fare: uiop has EVERYTHING cl-fad has, just better
2015-08-11T12:36:39Z Fare: unless cl-fad has substantially improved since I wrote uiop
2015-08-11T12:36:45Z eudoxia: seconding uiop
2015-08-11T12:37:19Z jackdaniel: ok, next time I'll fix clisp I'll use uiop ;-)
2015-08-11T12:37:28Z Fare: don't get me wrong: cl-fad was great when it was originally written
2015-08-11T12:37:41Z Fare: but it never got the love it deserved.
2015-08-11T12:38:07Z jackdaniel: btw, does uiop run-program allow interactive subprocesses?
2015-08-11T12:38:43Z Fare: I'm not vouching for the version of uiop currently provided by clisp :-/ They're not even using a stable release(!)
2015-08-11T12:38:54Z eudoxia: Fare: uiop doesn't have walk-directory though :~c
2015-08-11T12:38:57Z Fare: run-program ... :output :interactive
2015-08-11T12:39:06Z Fare: walk-directory is a piece of shit
2015-08-11T12:39:14Z jackdaniel: Fare: I used ext:run-program for clisp
2015-08-11T12:39:20Z eudoxia: i think with interactive he means take the process object, write to the input stream, read from the output, etc.
2015-08-11T12:39:26Z Fare: use uiop:subdirectories and uiop:directory-files and do your own recursion.
2015-08-11T12:39:52Z Fare: oh, you mean asynchronous?
2015-08-11T12:40:02Z jackdaniel: what eudoxia says
2015-08-11T12:40:03Z jackdaniel: yep
2015-08-11T12:40:16Z eudoxia: i use external-program for that
2015-08-11T12:40:48Z Fare: uiop has asynchronous on the platforms that support it, which is not all of them. But that's not tested and not well-documented.
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2015-08-11T12:41:37Z jackdaniel: oh, ok. Just was wondering, if you have somehow made workaround for ECL when provided stream doesn't have file-handler, so it might be run asynchronusly with :output *standard-output* with gray stream
2015-08-11T12:42:00Z Xach: Fare: where is the documentation?
2015-08-11T12:42:08Z Fare: Xach: in docstrings.
2015-08-11T12:42:15Z jackdaniel: that doesn't count :p
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2015-08-11T12:42:22Z Xach: Fare: so it has fewer or shorter docstrings?
2015-08-11T12:42:23Z Fare: and automatically generated docs from docstring
2015-08-11T12:42:39Z Xach: Fare: where are the automatically generated docs?
2015-08-11T12:43:45Z eudoxia: quickdocs caught *some* of UIOP's API http://quickdocs.org/uiop/api
2015-08-11T12:44:13Z eudoxia: probs cause uiop uses it's own package-defining thingee
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2015-08-11T12:44:23Z Fare: uiop/run-program:%run-program supports :wait nil, but I haven't needed it, haven't tested it, haven't documented it. I believe it supports more backends than external-program (or at least, did when I wrote it)
2015-08-11T12:44:53Z Fare: the uiop/README.md points to: http://bimib.disco.unimib.it/people/Marco.Antoniotti/Projects/CL/HELAMBDAP/tests/asdf-uiop/docs/html/dictionary/dictionary.html
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2015-08-11T12:45:29Z p_l: Xach: re: package::(...) syntax, at the very least was common on ZetaLisp, not sure if it existed on MIT LML, pretty sure it didn't exist in maclisp
2015-08-11T12:45:31Z Fare: beware you need to navigate around packages, which is not so obviously done by scrolling in the package pane on the top left
2015-08-11T12:45:31Z jackdaniel: Fare: %run-program doesn't support ecl at all
2015-08-11T12:46:01Z Fare: jackdaniel, well, does ecl provide the necessary support for that?
2015-08-11T12:46:15Z Fare: on ecl, I'm falling back to %use-system, which definitely doesn't do asynchronous
2015-08-11T12:46:33Z Fare: jackdaniel: if ecl implements a decent run-program, uiop will use it
2015-08-11T12:47:19Z jackdaniel: Fare: you tell me if it does. It has decent run-program imo
2015-08-11T12:47:20Z Fare: I've filed issue https://github.com/fukamachi/quickdocs/issues/24 years ago
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2015-08-11T12:48:33Z eudoxia: well quickdocs has now switched from it's own doc parser to my docparser project but it didn't fix much
2015-08-11T12:48:43Z eudoxia: maybe i'll have to add support for uiop's define package sutff
2015-08-11T12:48:44Z eudoxia: stuff*
2015-08-11T12:48:49Z jackdaniel: only limitation I'm aware of is that it doesn't work well with gray streams, since they doesn't have file handlers
2015-08-11T12:49:40Z eudoxia: hey Fare, while you're here, are there any plans to add something like categorization for ASDF systems. like a closed hierarchy of categories that users can choose from like web development, computational biology, etc.
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2015-08-11T12:50:05Z jackdaniel: for next release default values are bound to :stream, so fresh streams will be created instead of using *standard-…* , which breaks ie in slime for abovementioned reasons
2015-08-11T12:50:14Z Fare: is ecl's run-program recent or recently improved? I remember looking long ago, but don't remember why I didn't end up using it.
2015-08-11T12:50:32Z Fare: closed cartesian categories? wait, that's something else
2015-08-11T12:51:05Z jackdaniel: hm, afaik system uses run-program
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2015-08-11T12:51:59Z Fare: eudoxia: you could suggest to rpgoldman a new keyword argument to add in asdf 3.2. Convincing programmers to self-curate will be hard, unless you synchronize with quicklisp on that.
2015-08-11T12:52:22Z Fare: does it work on ecl/windows ?
2015-08-11T12:52:28Z jackdaniel: yes
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2015-08-11T12:53:18Z Fare: oh, wait, I believe I didn't use it because it has a useless return value NIL and no way to catch exit code, errors, etc.
2015-08-11T12:53:36Z jackdaniel: nope, it returns return-value as , sec
2015-08-11T12:53:43Z jackdaniel: second value
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2015-08-11T12:54:34Z jackdaniel: third value is additionally process structure, which contains all the streams, return value, if its alive or not etc etc
2015-08-11T12:54:38Z Fare: that's not documented
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2015-08-11T12:54:55Z Fare: I read the docs, and didn't see any of that, so I didn't use it.
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2015-08-11T12:55:22Z Xach: Did you read the docstrings?
2015-08-11T12:56:06Z loz: did you try it in repl
2015-08-11T12:56:15Z jackdaniel: right, I'll update documentation, good it came out
2015-08-11T12:56:16Z Fare: it doesn't have any, does it?
2015-08-11T12:56:29Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/rn01re63.html
2015-08-11T12:56:30Z jackdaniel: it does
2015-08-11T12:56:38Z jackdaniel: but return values aren't documented indeed
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2015-08-11T12:58:20Z jackdaniel: and probably I should document other arguments, like :if-output-exists, :environ, :wait
2015-08-11T12:58:58Z Fare: and send a patch to uiop to use it, especially if they have been around for a while
2015-08-11T12:59:44Z jackdaniel: I already have tons on my plate, so to speak
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2015-08-11T12:59:51Z Fare: (documentation 'ext:run-program 'function) ==> no output
2015-08-11T12:59:57Z Fare: no hurry
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2015-08-11T13:00:32Z Fare: if it's been around for a while, and is portable to windows, I may update uiop to use it after you update the docs.
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2015-08-11T13:01:15Z Fare: I remember redirecting stdin, stdout, stderr on ecl was "interesting" :-/
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2015-08-11T13:02:04Z Xach: b
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2015-08-11T13:03:44Z loke`: Hello Xach
2015-08-11T13:03:51Z Xach: hi loke`
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2015-08-11T13:04:05Z Fare: as in ext:system was going crazy unless I explicitly rebind *standard-input* to ext::+process-standard-input+, and so on
2015-08-11T13:04:46Z Fare: which deserves to be documented or fixed
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2015-08-11T13:04:54Z jackdaniel: as I said, ecl can't redirect process input/output to gray streams
2015-08-11T13:05:03Z jackdaniel: and it's a case if you ran it in slime
2015-08-11T13:05:08Z loke`: I'm trying to figure out a good way to announce an opensource Lisp project I've been working on for a while. If you've seen Slack, it's basically that. But (imho) better.
2015-08-11T13:05:24Z loke`: Anyone had any experience announcing opensource projects?
2015-08-11T13:05:29Z Fare: yeah I believe all my tests were passing, then people started complaining that it didn't work under SLIME
2015-08-11T13:05:32Z jackdaniel: I have no good idea how to fix it unfortunately if run-program will support async execution
2015-08-11T13:05:51Z Xach: loke`: do you want to announce to the lisp world or the whole world?
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2015-08-11T13:06:03Z jackdaniel: Fare: btw, are you still going to deprecate make-build?
2015-08-11T13:06:07Z Fare: jackdaniel, I believe in this case, sbcl spawns a thread to read from stream and write to stream
2015-08-11T13:06:12Z Fare: jackdaniel, you decide
2015-08-11T13:06:28Z jackdaniel: Fare: I'd say not, it has functionality not covered by rest
2015-08-11T13:06:29Z Fare: jackdaniel, and/or it's between you and rpgoldman, now
2015-08-11T13:06:29Z loke`: Xach: Both. But the nature of the application makes it interesting to the rest of the world, I think. If I could steal just one user off of Slack, I'd be happy. :-)
2015-08-11T13:06:43Z loke`: Backend is in CL. Frontend in Clojurescript.
2015-08-11T13:06:50Z jackdaniel: Fare: what do you mean?
2015-08-11T13:07:07Z Fare: if I were still maintainer, I'd push for said functionality (if any) to be moved to using (asdf:operate 'asdf:program-op ...)
2015-08-11T13:07:15Z jackdaniel: Fare: and with thread- yes, that crossed my mind, but what if single-thread builds
2015-08-11T13:07:25Z eudoxia: loke`: post it to r/lisp, r/clojure and HN?
2015-08-11T13:07:34Z Xach: loke`: well, first you post to slashdot, then freshmeat...
2015-08-11T13:07:35Z eudoxia: that's what i do for my projects
2015-08-11T13:07:44Z Xach: loke`: eudoxia is probably right!
2015-08-11T13:07:47Z loke`: Xach: well... yeah... Or not :-)
2015-08-11T13:08:05Z Xach: loke`: a tweet would also be sweet
2015-08-11T13:08:23Z eudoxia: yes, remember to tweet
2015-08-11T13:08:43Z loke`: eudoxia: Kinda har without any followers :-)
2015-08-11T13:09:21Z Xach: loke`: it's not the #, it's the quality!
2015-08-11T13:09:58Z Xach: you have to update the blue egg, though
2015-08-11T13:10:05Z loke`: How on earth did you find that twitter accont?
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2015-08-11T13:10:50Z Fare: jackdaniel: then throw an error?
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2015-08-11T13:11:10Z Fare: IIRC, the error mode wasn't very friendly, but I may not RC.
2015-08-11T13:11:29Z Xach: loke`: it's the same as your github account.
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2015-08-11T13:11:58Z loke`: Fair enough
2015-08-11T13:12:33Z jackdaniel: Fare: if at all, this will have to wait for next release
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2015-08-11T13:12:59Z jackdaniel: but you are right, it should be done that way I suppose
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2015-08-11T13:17:59Z loke`: Xach: That said, we're two developers and the other guy (who is actually using twitter) created an account for the project.
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2015-08-11T13:19:17Z Vityok: loke`: you can also post it on comp.lang.lisp and write a blog post
2015-08-11T13:19:33Z loke`: Vityok: Yes, blog post is coming. I'm writing something about the architecture.
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2015-08-11T13:19:49Z Vityok: depending on the functionality of the application you might share it in the corresponding communities
2015-08-11T13:20:13Z Vityok: if it is a programming toolkit/framework/etc. you can share it on the /r/programming or /r/coding
2015-08-11T13:20:18Z Vityok: in addition to /r/lisp
2015-08-11T13:20:46Z Vityok: it would be nice if your blog post gets aggregated by the Planet Lisp
2015-08-11T13:21:31Z loke`: It's a web application. Basically, it's a web-based group chat application. There is one called Slack which is proprietary and hosted-only which is quite popular. We used it for a while but management didn't like us to have internal communication hosted outside the company. So we deicded to write our own, which has been in production at our company now for many months.
2015-08-11T13:21:56Z loke`: We're ripping out all non-generic code and will be releasing it opensource in the next few weeks.
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2015-08-11T13:27:04Z Xach: Slack has a very polished UI. It manages to take a lot of the good things about IRC and add a lot of extras in a reasonable way.
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2015-08-11T13:28:19Z loke`: Xach: well, our UI is more ugly (because we have no designers).
2015-08-11T13:28:35Z Xach: oh. i would try to avoid mentioning the "S" word then.
2015-08-11T13:28:38Z loke`: Xach: I'd love for someone to give some critique, since no designer has ever laid eyes on it :-)
2015-08-11T13:29:01Z jackdaniel: loke`: any sneakpeak snapshot?
2015-08-11T13:29:11Z loke`: Sure: http://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2015-08-11T13:29:37Z loke`: The signin process is super ugly, because when we run it at our company we tie it to active directory with single signon, so you never see that part
2015-08-11T13:30:19Z Xach: oh, so that's what potato.el is for
2015-08-11T13:30:27Z loke`: Xach: Yes ;_0
2015-08-11T13:30:29Z loke`: :-)
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2015-08-11T13:33:37Z Vityok: loke`: I clicked "Register" with an empty e-mail address and instead of showing me some warning/error it proceeded to the next page
2015-08-11T13:33:44Z jackdaniel: "server connection failed" now :p
2015-08-11T13:33:50Z Vityok: are there screenshots for those who wouldn't register?
2015-08-11T13:34:56Z Vityok: jackdaniel: the upper server is not responding as well
2015-08-11T13:35:22Z jackdaniel: but it looks nice
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2015-08-11T13:46:17Z Vityok: jackdaniel: posting screenshots would be nice
2015-08-11T13:46:25Z Vityok: on that site
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2015-08-11T13:46:57Z loke`: Vityok: Yes, it tried to send an invitation email to an empty address, which cause Mandrill to vomit on me, which cause the email service maneger in the application to die, which caused the entire server to go belly-up because I decided to run it in a single process without debugger active.
2015-08-11T13:47:07Z Vityok: and the blog does not look like very active http://blog.potato.network/
2015-08-11T13:47:12Z jdz: loke`: FWIW there's also http://www.mattermost.org/
2015-08-11T13:47:17Z loke`: Vityok: It's not been started yet :-)
2015-08-11T13:47:36Z Vityok: wow, I broke the system (-;
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2015-08-11T13:48:20Z loke`: Vityok: Yes. And I thank you. That's a part of the application that hasn't been tested since we normally run this thing tied to the single-signon module.
2015-08-11T13:48:20Z jackdaniel: Vityok: http://imgur.com/SATD5oXl.png
2015-08-11T13:49:45Z Vityok: thanks!
2015-08-11T13:49:55Z jackdaniel: woops, it ought to be one window, hope I don't have any porn behind browser :D
2015-08-11T13:50:20Z Vityok: looks nice
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2015-08-11T14:02:36Z luis: Is it written in Lisp?
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2015-08-11T14:04:20Z luis: Ah, I see loke has said backend is in CL and frontend in ClojureScript. Cool.
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2015-08-11T14:07:24Z pjb: loke: no for torment, you have to forbit rlwrap.
2015-08-11T14:07:29Z pjb: forbid
2015-08-11T14:08:10Z pjb: mobius-eng: how is racket easier than emacs + cl?
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2015-08-11T14:08:36Z pjb: mobius-eng: in racket, you have to learn the editor too!  Learn to learn modularly! learn emacs independently of the language.
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2015-08-11T14:09:12Z mobius-eng: pjb: easy to install and download on Windows/Mac OS/Linux
2015-08-11T14:09:38Z pjb: and at a university, student don't learn to install software?
2015-08-11T14:09:43Z mobius-eng: For simple things (at the beginning) can forget about modules
2015-08-11T14:10:05Z pjb: so you want them to have the zx81 experience, at the university level. Great.
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2015-08-11T14:10:41Z mobius-eng: I have tutored the course where they used Scilab: there were lots of problems even with such a simple thing
2015-08-11T14:11:12Z loke`: pjb: It's funny. In physics you expect the students to grok massive amounts of maths that they might not actually be prepared for. "they'll have to catch up".
2015-08-11T14:11:13Z pjb: In any case, where I was, it wasn't even the job of the teacher to teach you that.  It was TA in the lab who would help you set up your environment.
2015-08-11T14:11:20Z mobius-eng: It also depends who you teach
2015-08-11T14:11:22Z loke`: But... in CS, they can't be expected to learn a friggin' editor?
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2015-08-11T14:11:27Z pjb: loke`: exactly.
2015-08-11T14:11:35Z mobius-eng: Many kids are coming here who haven't seen the computer in their life
2015-08-11T14:11:44Z pjb: not true anymore.
2015-08-11T14:11:47Z pjb: Simply not true.
2015-08-11T14:11:51Z loke`: mobius-eng: Then... "they have to catch up".
2015-08-11T14:11:53Z pjb: It was not true already 30 years ago.
2015-08-11T14:12:28Z loke`: If the goal is to not have the studerns learn anything, then just give them the diploma outright and you'll save them 3 or so years of their life.
2015-08-11T14:12:29Z mobius-eng: loke`: not when it's 50% of the class
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2015-08-11T14:12:49Z pjb: It's like the legend that old people know nothing about technology or computers.  Who fucking invented it?
2015-08-11T14:12:56Z mobius-eng: btw, who said CS?
2015-08-11T14:13:18Z luis: loke`: is Potato using websockets?
2015-08-11T14:13:21Z loke`: "students". One of these days I should learn how to spell. Perhaps I should take university level English. I'm sure this will be my course literature: https://www.toddleabout.co.uk/articles/books/priddy-baby-abc-book.jpg
2015-08-11T14:13:31Z loke`: luis: HTML5 EventSource.
2015-08-11T14:13:35Z mobius-eng: We are talking about chemical enginerring students
2015-08-11T14:13:40Z loke`: luis: There is also a fallback to plain long-poll.
2015-08-11T14:13:54Z jackdaniel: imo it's absurd to require students to learn editor and then programming language on course about programming language-  especially if it's editor which isn't much of standard neither popular except some niche
2015-08-11T14:14:00Z oleo: hello :)
2015-08-11T14:14:19Z pjb: jackdaniel: it's absurd to believe they can't learn to use emacs in half an hour!
2015-08-11T14:14:33Z pjb: That's the time it took me to start with emacs, back in 1991.
2015-08-11T14:14:33Z mobius-eng: and the time budget is max 1-2 lectures a week
2015-08-11T14:14:46Z loke`: luis: I've never used websockets. It seemed to be that EventSource does everything I need. What's the benefit of websocket?
2015-08-11T14:15:05Z luis: I have no idea. I'm just curious.
2015-08-11T14:15:08Z jackdaniel: pjb: well, maybe I'm just way dumber, but I had actually 2 tries to use emacs - one was failure due to lack of time - after 3 days
2015-08-11T14:15:11Z jackdaniel: second was succesfull
2015-08-11T14:15:24Z loke`: mobius-eng: Seriously. Lecture time should not be sued for the editor. They can study that separately. Just give them the material.
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2015-08-11T14:16:02Z pjb: jackdaniel: perhaps, what can help is some mentor physically present.  It's not the same on the Internet than when you have a band of programmers in the same room, for the newbie learning experience.
2015-08-11T14:16:19Z mobius-eng: loke`: each course is allocated number of credits, which is the number of hours spent on it, including self-study: this is also limited and bound
2015-08-11T14:16:39Z pjb: That should be what they get at the university, a lab with  TAs and advanced students to help them get up to speed.
2015-08-11T14:17:05Z mobius-eng: Unless Emacs can be integrated into other work, I won't convince the dept. to include it into the syllabus
2015-08-11T14:17:22Z pjb: Do they integrate pens into other work?
2015-08-11T14:17:35Z jackdaniel: I'm not convinced if emacs is good either either, and using it beyond something achievable with kate/gedit/whatever requires more time investement then it's worth, if you just want to "edit code" - not question of 30 minutes
2015-08-11T14:18:34Z loke`: jackdaniel: But Lisp is about more than just "edit code" wouldn't you agree? My point in all of this is that unless you develop in Lisp the "real" way, all you do is to turn the students off of Lisp forever.
2015-08-11T14:19:04Z jackdaniel: loke`: you may turn them off of lisp forever by imposing emacs on them
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2015-08-11T14:19:35Z loke`: With a dumb editor and an Edit->Compile->Run cycle, Lisp will just look like a "weird ruby with parentheses"
2015-08-11T14:19:53Z mobius-eng: you assume infinite amount of resource and the fact that computing/programming is on the top priority. It is not. Where will I find TAs for 150 students to help them install and setup Emacs?
2015-08-11T14:20:28Z loke`: mobius-eng: You'd provide them with a preconfigured Emacs installation with CUA mode by default.
2015-08-11T14:20:53Z jackdaniel: loke`: while now we have wonderful interactive environment and lisp looks like a "nothing I can process, especially that nobody uses emacs" for broad range of potential lisp developers
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2015-08-11T14:21:22Z loke`: I mean, it has been roughly 30 years since I was a newbie, so I might have a hard time putting myself in the shoes of these students, but really. Learning these things wasn't particularly hard.
2015-08-11T14:21:24Z jackdaniel: and ruby is considered *better*, what is outraging, but well
2015-08-11T14:22:17Z mobius-eng: loke`: it all depends on your time budget
2015-08-11T14:22:44Z jackdaniel: lisp is adventure by itself (wonderful adventure), and if someone uses emacs, then it's even better! but approaching cl when you actually like stuff like sublime makes it an awful stuff
2015-08-11T14:22:53Z loke`: jackdaniel: That's my point though. We know for a fact that Ruby is not better by any relevant measure, but showing off Lisp using a copile/load/run cycle will do nothing to convey that fact to people.
2015-08-11T14:23:08Z pjb: If emacs could be learned and used by scretaries (even elisp programming), why should it be such a problem for programming students?
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2015-08-11T14:23:42Z mobius-eng: pjb: they are not programming students
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2015-08-11T14:23:55Z pjb: Aren't they learning programming?
2015-08-11T14:24:12Z jackdaniel: pjb: not yet, they have to grok emacs first - next semester maybe ;)
2015-08-11T14:24:15Z pjb: In any case, emacs is useful to everybody.
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2015-08-11T14:24:27Z mobius-eng: they do, but it's a supplementary course
2015-08-11T14:24:32Z pjb: So everybody shall learn it. From secretaries to lawyers, musicians, writers,  etc.
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2015-08-11T14:24:51Z mobius-eng: pjb: there is a good case for it
2015-08-11T14:25:04Z jackdaniel: vim is useful to everybody, notepad is useful for everybody, it's all question of what you gain for what cost. Sometimes we can't afford some cost, even if gain is very big
2015-08-11T14:25:06Z mobius-eng: I use ORG all the time
2015-08-11T14:25:34Z mobius-eng: jackdaniel: well said
2015-08-11T14:25:43Z jackdaniel: thanks (:
2015-08-11T14:25:46Z pjb: mobius-eng: otherwise, we can go back to the fundamentals. In the 70's, it's not only for lack of computing resources that we had line-based programming (like in BASIC and LSE).  It was a conscious design choice for the simplicity of program editing for a first time learner.
2015-08-11T14:26:03Z cluck: just wait until BCIs become affordable and even joe six-pack will use emacs ;)
2015-08-11T14:26:21Z pjb: mobius-eng: this would translate in CL, into an image based development model (like LOGO), or IBCL.
2015-08-11T14:26:29Z Fare: loke, I advocate giving a PhD to every newborn and/or immigrant.
2015-08-11T14:26:36Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/
2015-08-11T14:26:37Z mobius-eng: pjb: it's similar now. Look at MATLAB
2015-08-11T14:26:45Z loke`: Fare: I agree 101%
2015-08-11T14:27:06Z loke`: upskirt
2015-08-11T14:27:08Z Fare: see also Bryan Caplan's blogs, talks, etc., about higher ed being > 80% signalling
2015-08-11T14:27:11Z loke`: what the hell
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2015-08-11T14:27:40Z loke`: If I told you guys how that happened you wouldn't believe me
2015-08-11T14:27:41Z Fare: and that's counting STEM fields — without them, closer to 100%
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2015-08-11T14:28:07Z Xach: loke`: time to change your potato password
2015-08-11T14:28:21Z loke`: Xach: You're close :-)
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2015-08-11T14:31:43Z loke`: Not passwords, but temporary names.
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2015-08-11T14:32:53Z flip214: Fare: if only it wouldn't be so true....
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2015-08-11T14:34:18Z jackdaniel: Fare: just remembered - ext:system changes (undocumented) behavior, it will silently ignore either input output and error, what will probably break uiop:run-program - I'll send you patch, which utilizes ext:run-program in %system
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2015-08-11T14:41:18Z jackdaniel: Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1483778
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2015-08-11T14:48:12Z eudoxia: someone's written an ncurses emacs clone in CL https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2015-08-11T14:49:29Z Xach: neat
2015-08-11T14:49:42Z Xach cannot read the text
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2015-08-11T14:50:13Z eudoxia: well i can't either
2015-08-11T14:50:23Z eudoxia: but the actual function names and what have you are in english :)
2015-08-11T14:51:55Z flip214: 99 emacs clones in CL on the wall ...
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2015-08-11T14:52:46Z nyef: "common lisp" <something> "small emacs-like editor"?
2015-08-11T14:53:41Z Fare: Back in the olden days, common lisp and small would have been an oxymoron. These days, it's actually synonymous?
2015-08-11T14:53:56Z Xach: eight megs and constantly swapping
2015-08-11T14:54:06Z nyef: Compared to something like Eclipse?
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2015-08-11T14:57:05Z theos: common lisp is an oxymoron in itself
2015-08-11T14:57:47Z theos: its the best language ever!
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2015-08-11T15:04:11Z JuanDaugherty: it's common as in universal, not common as in shabby, low class
2015-08-11T15:04:32Z Fare: not common as in people actually agree on anything
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2015-08-11T15:04:59Z JuanDaugherty: common like in Pu Tong Hua
2015-08-11T15:05:10Z Fare: or maybe — that's how much they agree on, all the rest they don't.
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2015-08-11T15:09:56Z Fare: jackdaniel, so, what are the return values of ext:run-program, already, and what are the accessor for the process structure?
2015-08-11T15:10:12Z Fare: the unixsys.d file is not exactly very readable
2015-08-11T15:10:51Z jackdaniel: it isn't indeed :) process structure is in process.lsp tough
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2015-08-11T15:11:27Z jackdaniel: I'm correcting documentation of run-program
2015-08-11T15:12:17Z jackdaniel: first value is two-way stream for input/output (bounds together provided streams)
2015-08-11T15:12:40Z jackdaniel: second value is return code (is process is spawned async, then it's nil and will change later)
2015-08-11T15:13:02Z jackdaniel: and third value is process structure (defined in process.lsp)
2015-08-11T15:13:55Z Fare: has this been stable for > 2 years ? 1 year?
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2015-08-11T15:14:59Z Fare: did it exist already before the mkcl fork?
2015-08-11T15:15:16Z jackdaniel: last change (except my recent work) was at 2012-08
2015-08-11T15:15:49Z Fare: great, so I can definitely add support to uiop without checking for old versions
2015-08-11T15:15:51Z jackdaniel: first mention in 2005
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2015-08-11T15:16:12Z jackdaniel: erm, 2004
2015-08-11T15:16:22Z Fare: does it support :directory ?
2015-08-11T15:16:49Z jackdaniel: no, but it supports :environ
2015-08-11T15:16:49Z Fare: apparently not
2015-08-11T15:17:11Z jackdaniel: as list of strings, if nil (default) it inherits from lisp process
2015-08-11T15:18:00Z Fare: Oh, I look at the code for uiop and I see that ecl support is already mostly there in %run-program, just not enabled
2015-08-11T15:18:26Z Fare: so for an actual nil environment, we're out of luck?
2015-08-11T15:18:54Z jackdaniel: can process run on null environment ?
2015-08-11T15:19:53Z Fare: sure, though it's not very unix-friendly.
2015-08-11T15:20:38Z Fare: not that unix itself is very friendly
2015-08-11T15:21:07Z jackdaniel: uhm - then yes, we can't run with null environment, unless lisp environment is null
2015-08-11T15:23:36Z Fare: I would have used T rather than NIL to signify this default — but fixing an API is hard
2015-08-11T15:23:36Z jackdaniel: unless providing "" as environment counts as empty (: don't know really
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2015-08-11T15:30:05Z Fare: massive failures if asdf tries to use %run-program with ecl... let's investigate why...
2015-08-11T15:33:18Z Fare: oh, had forgotten to remove the raising an error for ecl in a #+ in run-program
2015-08-11T15:35:21Z Fare: works less badly now. Still fails. Apparently, ext:run-program doesn't like a pathname as :output argument.
2015-08-11T15:35:43Z jackdaniel: hm, it should like it tough
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2015-08-11T15:35:49Z jackdaniel: though°
2015-08-11T15:36:35Z jackdaniel: do you have ecl version from git "develop" branch? I've touched a few bits there, so best to test on current state
2015-08-11T15:36:49Z Fare: oh, looks like I'm using :error instead of :error-output or something
2015-08-11T15:37:19Z Fare: Invalid :ERROR argument to EXT:RUN-PROGRAM: #P"/tmp/tunes/tmpZCZFTZ4D.tmp"
2015-08-11T15:37:31Z Fare: unixsys.d suggests it's error indeed.
2015-08-11T15:37:45Z jackdaniel: error is one of lately corrected parts
2015-08-11T15:38:03Z jackdaniel: previously it could hold only :t, :output and nil values
2015-08-11T15:38:25Z jackdaniel: now it should work with paths (unless I did something wrong)
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2015-08-11T15:39:41Z Fare: when is "now" ?
2015-08-11T15:40:20Z jackdaniel: 2-3 mothns ago
2015-08-11T15:40:24Z jackdaniel: after 15.3.7
2015-08-11T15:40:33Z Fare: how do i detect that?
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2015-08-11T15:40:58Z jackdaniel: if process has :error-stream, then you have recent version
2015-08-11T15:41:07Z jackdaniel: if it doesn't, then it's old one
2015-08-11T15:41:10Z jackdaniel: external-process°
2015-08-11T15:41:25Z jackdaniel: and just "error", not "error-stream"
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2015-08-11T15:41:39Z Fare: can you write a lisp form for me?
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2015-08-11T15:42:33Z jackdaniel: (nth-value 2 (ext:run-program "ls" nil :output nil :input nil :error nil))
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2015-08-11T15:42:59Z jackdaniel: if between :ext::output and :ext::%status is :error, then you have recent version
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2015-08-11T15:44:06Z jackdaniel: what clearly shows, that 'error is in keyword package, what is bad, but nvm that
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2015-08-11T15:45:47Z Fare: I'd rather not start a subprocess for that
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2015-08-11T15:46:18Z Fare: Can I check for, e.g. :ext::error as a keyword?
2015-08-11T15:46:27Z jackdaniel: for what? You've asked for lisp form, which will show you, if you have not recent ecl, right?
2015-08-11T15:47:06Z jackdaniel: #S(EXT:EXTERNAL-PROCESS :EXT::PID NIL :EXT::INPUT #<two-way stream 00000000018cbdc0> :EXT::OUTPUT #<two-way stream 00000000018cbdc0> :ERROR #<two-way stream 00000000018cbdc0> :EXT::%STATUS :EXITED :EXT::%CODE 0) ; result here, error isn't internet properly probably
2015-08-11T15:47:16Z jackdaniel: interned°
2015-08-11T15:47:46Z Fare: is there a way to get the information without actually spawning a process?
2015-08-11T15:48:04Z Fare: and programmatically rather than by ogling with a human
2015-08-11T15:48:29Z jackdaniel: (ext:make-external-process) maybe
2015-08-11T15:48:49Z jackdaniel: it won't spawn process, just create structure
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2015-08-11T15:51:10Z Fare tries (nth-value 1 (ignore-errors (slot-value (make-instance 'ext:external-process) 'ext::error)))
2015-08-11T15:51:27Z Fare: does that reply nil in a recent ecl ?
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2015-08-11T15:52:04Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-08-11T15:52:08Z Fare: good
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2015-08-11T15:52:26Z jackdaniel: so what version do you have? recent one?
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2015-08-11T15:53:25Z Fare: what are t and nil for :error, already?
2015-08-11T15:53:33Z Fare: right now, not recent enough
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2015-08-11T15:53:50Z jackdaniel: *standard-error* and null stream (black hole)
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2015-08-11T16:00:27Z Fare: I see last modification in march on https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git
2015-08-11T16:00:41Z Fare: have you moved again?
2015-08-11T16:03:41Z jackdaniel: nope
2015-08-11T16:03:46Z jackdaniel: branch develop
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2015-08-11T16:05:52Z Fare: oh, and how do you wait for a process on os-windows?
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2015-08-11T16:06:04Z Fare: Or should I only use run-program on Unix?
2015-08-11T16:06:51Z Fare: detecting a proper ecl context is starting to be a headache :-/
2015-08-11T16:07:14Z jackdaniel: function "external-process-wait" is responsible for that
2015-08-11T16:07:38Z jackdaniel: which calls ecl_waitpid having backend for both windows and "else"
2015-08-11T16:07:50Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "proper ecl context" ?
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2015-08-11T16:20:50Z jackdaniel: I feel so ignored :C
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2015-08-11T16:22:08Z JuanDaugherty: my guess would be an embedded operating environment
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2015-08-11T16:37:41Z jackdaniel: et voila \o/ https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/rn01re64.html
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2015-08-11T18:28:27Z John[Lisheth]: I have sort of a language related question. And it's a little complex, and a little off topic. Would you guys care to briefly discuss it with me?
2015-08-11T18:29:09Z Quadrescence: The suspense is killing us!
2015-08-11T18:29:23Z jackdaniel: ask, I'm going to watch a movie in 3 minutes!
2015-08-11T18:29:28Z jackdaniel: fast ;)
2015-08-11T18:29:42Z Bike: well, it's hard to say whether we want to discuss something when we don't know what that thing is.
2015-08-11T18:29:45Z jackdaniel: and no, I can't delay — my gf will kill me
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2015-08-11T18:35:18Z Dasyatid1: It's pretty quiet right now; I'd say go ahead.
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2015-08-11T18:42:06Z John[Lisheth]: alright
2015-08-11T18:42:26Z John[Lisheth]: For those who are familiar with what JSON is for, what do you think is the current best implementation of that idea.
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2015-08-11T18:42:44Z John[Lisheth]: For those who don't: Jason provides standards for sending datat between different programming languages through STDIN and STDOUT
2015-08-11T18:42:49Z John[Lisheth]: *JSON
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2015-08-11T18:44:17Z Dasyatid1: "through STDIN and STDOUT" is kind of misleading.  It's more commonly and originally used for Web stuff, though nowadays it's used for a lot of structured data transport in general (but you probably knew that).
2015-08-11T18:44:38Z Quadrescence: John[Lisheth], A survey can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries
2015-08-11T18:44:45Z Quadrescence: John[Lisheth], I personally like yason
2015-08-11T18:45:22Z Quadrescence: John[Lisheth], I have also used st-json nicely.
2015-08-11T18:45:24Z Dasyatid1: I don't think the question is all that coherent, either way, if by "of that idea" you mean "similar metaformats".  There's too many variables.
2015-08-11T18:45:38Z Dasyatid1: I think you'd probably find a lot of S-expression advocates around these parts, predictably enough.
2015-08-11T18:46:04Z Quadrescence: Meh, the question was what's the best implementation.
2015-08-11T18:46:10Z Quadrescence: The rest of the question isn't worth arguing about.
2015-08-11T18:46:14Z John[Lisheth]: Well the type of programming I would desire to do would need to be in the shell, and it would also need to be able to do anything that bash can do. On the other hand, it needs to be syntactially easier than bash and supportive of both purely functional and object oriented languages.
2015-08-11T18:46:35Z Quadrescence: John[Lisheth], try yason.
2015-08-11T18:46:46Z John[Lisheth]: And you would need to be able to run it as Linux' MacOS' and all other common format's shell.
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2015-08-11T18:46:53Z John[Lisheth]: and posix compliant
2015-08-11T18:46:54Z Bike: wait, what does that have to do with json
2015-08-11T18:46:55Z John[Lisheth]: that is the "IDEAL"
2015-08-11T18:47:00Z jlarocco_work: i don't know what your question is
2015-08-11T18:47:00Z John[Lisheth]: JSON is not ideal
2015-08-11T18:47:01Z Dasyatid1: Quadrescence: I read "best implementation of that idea" as "best specification rendition of the idea of metaformats", not "best software library implementation of JSON".
2015-08-11T18:47:10Z Quadrescence: I see.
2015-08-11T18:47:27Z John[Lisheth]: JSON is just an example. It's like I said "what are programs like MS paint but better" and you said "photoshop".
2015-08-11T18:47:30Z Bike: json isn't any of those things, it's like saying an orange isn't a very good survey of Eco's novels
2015-08-11T18:47:33Z jlarocco_work: any JSON library worth using is in Quicklisp
2015-08-11T18:47:40Z jlarocco_work: it takes 2 seconds to load them
2015-08-11T18:47:47Z jlarocco_work: try them out and see which works best for you
2015-08-11T18:48:00Z John[Lisheth]: I guess I will consider JSOn as an option too as I haven't looked into it too heavily
2015-08-11T18:48:05Z John[Lisheth]: Alright thanks guys
2015-08-11T18:48:07Z jlarocco_work: nobody here knows what you're doing, so we can't answer your question
2015-08-11T18:48:15Z John[Lisheth]: No you actually answered my question just fine
2015-08-11T18:48:23Z John[Lisheth]: I was polling you for things to google :)
2015-08-11T18:48:32Z Dasyatid1: John[Lisheth]: if I may: right now this all sounds too incoherent.  You need to do more basic research and/or experimentation and toss out the parts of your ideas that don't make any sense.  You might know that already, but still.
2015-08-11T18:48:50Z John[Lisheth]: The thing is I want to steal as much code as possible.
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2015-08-11T18:49:04Z John[Lisheth]: I have been working on this problem for 2 years.
2015-08-11T18:49:08Z Quadrescence: (steal yason)
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2015-08-11T18:49:50Z jlarocco_work: which JSON library to use?
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2015-08-11T18:50:12Z Quadrescence: yason or st-json
2015-08-11T18:50:12Z Dasyatid1: There's a _lot_ of "all we need is the best metaformat/language/whatever and then drop in a replacement for this chunk and take over the world, SMOP, right?" and the way you're presenting it sounds like that.  Maybe you have a lot more basis for things that you're not showing, but.
2015-08-11T18:50:27Z Xach high-fives Quadrescence for linking to the survey
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2015-08-11T18:52:48Z John[Lisheth]: Well here's the thing. I don't like any shell I've tried. They all seem limited to me.
2015-08-11T18:52:51Z Dasyatid1: I'm imagining you're asking about what metaformat you can use as a common interprogram transport format for your super-shell.
2015-08-11T18:52:58Z John[Lisheth]: They don't seem to truly follow the "unix way."
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2015-08-11T18:53:19Z John[Lisheth]: And I'm not talking about that microkernel nonsense. I mean piping programs of different languages together as a programming language.
2015-08-11T18:53:23Z John[Lisheth]: You can do this but it is hard as hell.
2015-08-11T18:53:47Z Dasyatid1: What do you mean "microkernel nonsense"?  Who mentioned a microkernel?
2015-08-11T18:54:09Z Dasyatid1: Anyway, I'm done with this conversation.  I don't see it going anywhere I would like.
2015-08-11T18:54:15Z Dasyatid1: Good luck.
2015-08-11T18:54:17Z John[Lisheth]: Lol sorry
2015-08-11T18:54:37Z John[Lisheth]: I don't mean to offend anybody. this is just something that has been brewing in my mind for a long time, and the idea is not done
2015-08-11T18:54:51Z Dasyatid1: I have my own quixotic world-devouring projects to work on.
2015-08-11T18:56:05Z jlarocco_work: actually, I just noticed that (ql:system-apropos "json") doesn't return yason in the results.  that's a unfortunate
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2015-08-11T19:01:26Z Quadrescence: jlongster, it searches by name
2015-08-11T19:01:32Z Quadrescence: and yason doesn't have "json" in its name
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2015-08-11T19:03:01Z Xach: That problem is on my out-of-beta list
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2015-08-11T19:12:52Z madnificent: Quadrescence: also doesn't mention jsown :/
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2015-08-11T19:24:20Z Quadrescence: madnificent, maybe people should stop writing the Nth JSON library!
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2015-08-11T19:31:36Z John[Lisheth]: ok I've done some research. Yason wins in my mind.
2015-08-11T19:31:47Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-08-11T19:32:14Z John[Lisheth]: Now what I want to do is re-write the GNU coreutils in racket and have them use the yason format.
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2015-08-11T19:32:24Z John[Lisheth]: Ain't I a stinker?
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2015-08-11T19:33:18Z madnificent: Quadrescence: different libraries have different purposes :) But sure
2015-08-11T19:33:36Z Quadrescence: madnificent, I mean I agree in principle, but come on, it's JSON.
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2015-08-11T19:34:42Z madnificent: Quadrescence: not sure what you're aiming for.  it is 5 years old by now... but it certainly wasn't the earliest
2015-08-11T19:34:57Z Quadrescence: madnificent, I didn't mean to pick on that library in particular.
2015-08-11T19:35:28Z madnificent: Quadrescence: are you merely trolling, or do you have a direction in which you want to go with this?
2015-08-11T19:36:15Z Quadrescence: madnificent, No I'm not trolling. I am complaining a bit though that like every single thing in Common Lisp, we have 100 incompatible libraries basically trying to solve the same thing.
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2015-08-11T19:36:25Z Quadrescence: And it's not surprising some of them didn't make the list.
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2015-08-11T19:37:37Z madnificent: Quadrescence: I think the list is built automatically.  I thought jsown was the second most downloaded json lib on Quicklisp (when watching one monthly download stat, so that's really really vague anyway)
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2015-08-11T20:16:52Z SilentEcho: Sorry, total noob question. I'm doing a drakma:http-request and getting multiple values back (as expected). How do I access the values other than the first?
2015-08-11T20:17:59Z Xach: SilentEcho: many ways. multiple-value-bind is probably the thing to use
2015-08-11T20:18:35Z Xach: I don't always like that aspect of drakma's design. i sometimes wrap it up so the wrapper returns an object.
2015-08-11T20:19:38Z Xach: But, in a pinch, I just use multiple-value-bind and just deal with the values
2015-08-11T20:21:27Z SilentEcho: Thanks, will look into it
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2015-08-11T20:21:39Z SilentEcho: I'm looking at wrapping it up after decoding the json response anyway
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2015-08-11T20:29:40Z Dasyatid1: SilentEcho: if you like the more imperative style, you can do (setf (values …) (‹some-function› …)) too.
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2015-08-11T20:31:41Z Xach: that is handy if you already have useful variables in scope
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2015-08-11T20:54:45Z jasom: madnificent: do any of the json libraries allow preserving round-trip data by default?  i.e. (encode (decode foo)) yields equivalent json to foo?
2015-08-11T20:55:20Z _death: com.gigamonkeys.json
2015-08-11T20:56:13Z madnificent: jasom: more-or-less.  jsown may still shuffle the order of the arguments around if you use (jsown:to-json (jsown:with-injective-reader (jsown:parse ... ))), but functionally they should then be the same.
2015-08-11T20:56:18Z _death: that's a very basic thing to expect, but unfortunately some of the popular libs defy the expectation
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2015-08-11T20:56:48Z madnificent: _death: it depends on the goal.  do you want to work nicely with the lisp world and make that interaction easy, or do you want an easy round-trip.
2015-08-11T20:56:50Z jasom: madnificent: oh, I like how jsown does it
2015-08-11T20:57:00Z _death: madnificent: the goal is sanity
2015-08-11T20:57:05Z madnificent: _death: indeed
2015-08-11T20:57:12Z madnificent: jasom: thanks
2015-08-11T20:57:26Z jasom: madnificent: you can work nicely with the lisp world and still get *very* close just by defaulting to decoding [] as a vector rather than a list
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2015-08-11T20:58:17Z madnificent: jasom: care to elaborate?  you'd need to map json's false and null values to something that's seemingly falsey, no?
2015-08-11T20:58:35Z jasom: madnificent: I personally prefer false to nil and null to a keyword
2015-08-11T20:58:44Z _death: madnificent: yep.. gigamonkeys uses :false and :null
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2015-08-11T20:59:54Z jasom: madnificent: but even if you do false and null to nil, you are very close.  In my uses null comes up almost never as part of an API (i.e. it's almost always the result of a bug rather than the intended data)
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2015-08-11T21:01:49Z madnificent: _death: it makes sense to do that.  when using it in practice i don't find it handy... but there are cases where it's awesome.  hence the existence of with-injective-reader.  you can set it up so it defaults to the injective reader.
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2015-08-11T21:02:27Z madnificent: jasom: interesting.  i hadn't noticed the null part in real life, but i think you are right.  jsonapi does use null to indicate specific content though.
2015-08-11T21:02:45Z madnificent: jasom: but i do think you may be right for the majority of cases
2015-08-11T21:02:51Z jasom: madnificent: right, and in that case you don't typically care about the falsey-ness
2015-08-11T21:03:19Z jasom: which is why I would do false -> nil and null -> :null (or even 'my-json-package:null)
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2015-08-11T21:05:06Z jasom: My preferred default would be: [] -> #() {} -> (make-hash-table :test #'equal)  false -> nil nul -> :null
2015-08-11T21:05:08Z madnificent: jasom: you can set up your own reader to do that if you'd like.  see jsown:*parsed-true-value*, jsown:*parsed-false-value*, jsown:*parsed-null-value*, jsown:*parsed-empty-list-value*.  you can experiment with it and see how it operates in practice.
2015-08-11T21:05:28Z jasom: jsown's (:obj <alist>) is reasonable though
2015-08-11T21:05:42Z jasom: madnificent: I currently use yason (I think) set up that way
2015-08-11T21:05:59Z madnificent: and it 'feels' good, without kinks?
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2015-08-11T21:06:42Z jasom: madnificent: yes, but I have been using hash-tables preferrably to alists for a while.  5 years ago I was using alists preferrably to hash-tables and would definitely not have liked it.
2015-08-11T21:07:34Z madnificent: jasom: it's an internal datastructure.  I generally traverse with #'jsown:val or #'jsown:filter.  I don't like the datastructure for manual usage.
2015-08-11T21:07:49Z jasom: madnificent: makes sense
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2015-08-11T21:08:33Z madnificent: thanks for the suggestions
2015-08-11T21:09:12Z jasom: main downside is that there are both richer primitives for lists, and the array/sequence equivalents are less used
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2015-08-11T21:09:52Z jasom: so code does end up looking different when you build your datastructures around vectors rather than lists.
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2015-08-11T21:10:31Z madnificent: jasom: that's why you provide accessors for your chosen datastructure, regardless of its internal representation.
2015-08-11T21:11:08Z jasom: madnificent: I have some of that already, since I need to operate on the structures both with parenscript and lisp
2015-08-11T21:11:16Z jasom: and I'm using ImmutableJS on the parenscript side
2015-08-11T21:12:13Z madnificent gave up on parenscript, may pick it up again later
2015-08-11T21:13:02Z jasom: I may have even abused SETF to cause (setf (aget place) bar) to modify place to point to a new immutable structure on the parenscript side so that the immutability is hidden from some of the shared code.
2015-08-11T21:13:11Z jasom: But I can neither confirm nor deny such an ugly hack
2015-08-11T21:13:17Z madnificent: lol
2015-08-11T21:13:55Z jasom: s/aget place/aget key place/
2015-08-11T21:14:08Z jasom: aget is my "get a field from a js object" accessor
2015-08-11T21:14:49Z hydan is trying to grok difference between optional types in CL and Dylan and the whole "gradual typing" thing.
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2015-08-11T21:16:42Z jasom: hydan: gradual typing will error at compile time when you violate the type constraints.  CL doesn't guarantee it, but implementations derived from cmucl will do it.
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2015-08-11T21:18:15Z jasom: hydan: (defun add (x y) (declare (type number x y)) (+ x y)) (defun foo () (add 'a 'b))
2015-08-11T21:18:26Z jasom: that won't give you any diagnostic message on e.g. ccl
2015-08-11T21:21:06Z jasom: hmm, but if you declare ftpe it will warn on ccl
2015-08-11T21:21:32Z jasom: clisp will not warn on either case
2015-08-11T21:22:37Z jasom: hydan: gradual typing is primarily concerned with static analysis, while lisp's type system (at least historically) is primarily concerned with performance.  Obviously any time you add static types, you have the opportunity to gain both.
2015-08-11T21:23:04Z jasom: The information provided to the compiler is essentially the same though.
2015-08-11T21:23:08Z hydan: jasom: that is my current understanding. I was reading http://www.didierverna.net/blog/index.php?post/2015/08/05/The-Return-of-Segfaults where Didier is pointing out something very similar. I am trying to understand what more is behind it. a.i. why for example Dylan is considered to have the gradually typed system and cl not.
2015-08-11T21:24:04Z jasom: I'm afraid I know nearly nothing about Dylan
2015-08-11T21:24:33Z jasom: but on sbcl and cmucl, you will never weaken your run-time type system guarantees without a safety of 0
2015-08-11T21:24:38Z hydan: jasom: I am not well versed in the actual implementation details of either one, but I still want to understand what he means by "Yes, Common Lisp's weak, optional type system is an antiquated thing".
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2015-08-11T21:27:37Z jasom: also, lisp's type system is strong and non-optional
2015-08-11T21:27:52Z jasom: perhaps that post predates the ANSI spec?
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2015-08-11T21:28:37Z hydan: jasom: I don't think so, I watched the linked video as well, it is from ECOOP 2015.
2015-08-11T21:30:59Z jasom: Mathias is one of the people working on typed racket, right?
2015-08-11T21:31:18Z hydan: jasom: ack
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2015-08-11T21:40:17Z hydan: jasom: maybe it has more to do with how the type system actually works. cannot tell for sure without knowing more details. i.e. they have DYNAMIC as another type. omitting type declarations vs. optional type declarations. or something like that. trying to find more in depth material about the topic atm.
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2015-08-11T21:42:38Z jasom: I guess every time they say "types" in the video they mean "static types"
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2015-08-11T21:49:25Z hydan: jasom: there is some more in the first few comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8594079 including the cmucl specifics you mentioned.
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2015-08-11T21:51:34Z jasom: hydan: in any event lisp's type-system falls down with regard to higher-order-functions.  Algebraic data-types are needed for that.
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2015-08-11T21:58:07Z hydan: jasom: and seems like typed racket has them. maybe that is part of what they were complaining about, the "completeness".
2015-08-11T21:58:45Z jasom: hydan: right.  It's completely feasible to build a complete type system on top of lisp, and there are probably several aborted attempts
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2015-08-11T22:06:02Z hydan: jasom: so that means, theoretically, somebody paranoid/paid enough could use something like that for their cl implementation? and then they would call that "gradually typed". or do you think cl spec is inherently contradictory to that idea?
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2015-08-11T22:06:55Z jasom: hydan: listen to what Bracha says about strongtalk; they do it entirely with a preprocessor.  You could make a set of macros that implemented it
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2015-08-11T22:09:33Z hydan: jasom: right. I think Shen did/does something like that.
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2015-08-11T22:11:23Z hydan does not like Shen and Clojure much :/
2015-08-11T22:11:49Z jasom: hydan: shen is much different, it's its own language, that just happens to have one implementation in common lisp
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2015-08-11T22:15:35Z hydan: jasom: thank you, this was informative.
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2015-08-11T22:17:38Z SilentEcho: Drakma http-request on URL including + is encoding the + to %2B. Whilst this is the correct encoding for +, + is a legal symbol in a URL so why is it being encoded? :/
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2015-08-11T22:19:58Z SilentEcho: More importantly, can I make it *not* be encoded?
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2015-08-11T22:21:29Z jasom: SilentEcho: :preserve-uri t
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2015-08-11T22:22:06Z jasom: SilentEcho: *or* put the part with plusses in the parameters and let drakma generate them for you
2015-08-11T22:22:14Z jasom: plus is a reserved character in the URI specification
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2015-08-11T22:23:59Z jasom: The reserved characters from rfc 2396 (which is what http referrences, there is a newer URI spec since http 1.1) are: ; / ? : @ & = + $ ,
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2015-08-11T22:25:13Z Fare: jackdaniel, I'm back. See asdf 3.1.5.2
2015-08-11T22:25:54Z Fare: jackdaniel, can you test it under Windows?
2015-08-11T22:26:05Z jasom: huh, but a plus is explicitly allowed in the path component, so in this cas drakma may be wrong
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2015-08-11T22:26:37Z SilentEcho: jasom: Thanks
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2015-08-11T22:29:20Z jasom: SilentEcho: though an escaped + is also allowed, so it's not doing anything wrong.
2015-08-11T22:30:42Z jasom: if it's excaping a plus in the host section of the uri, then it's wrong (escaped characters aren't allowed there)
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2015-08-11T22:33:06Z jasom: between the third / and the first ? %2B and + should be interchangable
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2015-08-11T22:45:30Z vrrm: Anyone know of a succinct groveller example?  I seem to be having a total menttal block using.  No comprehension whatsoever, even after reading the asfd, cffi and sbcl.
2015-08-11T22:45:52Z vrrm: (long-time c programmer btw, which I suppose explains the brain damage.)
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2015-08-11T22:55:40Z SilentEcho: jasom: I'm using the + in the query string. Have changed to :parameters and got the result I want.
2015-08-11T22:55:50Z SilentEcho: I don't have a URL with a + in the path to test against.
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2015-08-11T23:01:37Z ejbs: vrrm: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap
2015-08-11T23:03:10Z vrrm: ejbs: awesome!  I'll take a look.
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2015-08-11T23:18:10Z dwchandler: anyone know if getting cl-launch through quicklisp has the needed *BSD shim?
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2015-08-11T23:19:13Z anannie: Hi noob question - I have a lisp file that I've written out. How do I run it within Clozure and use the functions I've defined within the REPL?
2015-08-11T23:20:00Z dwchandler: anannie: (load "mystuff.lisp")
2015-08-11T23:20:13Z anannie: dwchandler: Oh I was trying to do require. Thanks.
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2015-08-11T23:20:22Z Lokathor: you can also compile it as you load it, (load (compile-file "hello.lisp"))
2015-08-11T23:20:22Z minion: Lokathor, memo from pjb: the first time you run slime, it has to compile itself, so it's slower than the next time.
2015-08-11T23:20:22Z minion: Lokathor, memo from pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+3ACM see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/4VyopdWcFI4/1sDQU-3H8VgJ
2015-08-11T23:20:43Z Lokathor: ...wait what did i just do
2015-08-11T23:21:03Z Bike: nothing. minion gets its memos for you the first time you say something.
2015-08-11T23:21:05Z dwchandler: pjb left you a memo with minion :)
2015-08-11T23:21:25Z Bike: it's like memoserv, but not!
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2015-08-11T23:21:42Z Lokathor: that memo must be quite old, i asked about slime on the weekend
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2015-08-11T23:28:46Z anannie: Another strange question - why is the square root definition within lisp defined within lisp?
2015-08-11T23:28:53Z anannie: I have never seen that in another language.
2015-08-11T23:29:04Z Bike: it's in terms of exp, right?
2015-08-11T23:29:13Z Bike: yes.
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2015-08-11T23:29:31Z Bike: that's because the rules for complex numbers are pretty complicated and they didn't want to explain the different branch cuts for every function.
2015-08-11T23:29:32Z anannie: Bike: Yes, but doesn't that create a weird paradox?
2015-08-11T23:29:40Z Bike: why would it?
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2015-08-11T23:29:44Z jasom: anannie: no it doesn't
2015-08-11T23:30:13Z anannie: Bike: So imagine if you try to write all of lisp in lisp, that's a paradox isn't it? Or you start with a version of lisp written in something else and then you define the rest of lisp in lisp?
2015-08-11T23:30:22Z anannie: I'm just impressed.
2015-08-11T23:30:23Z Bike: well, yes, but exp isn't defined in terms of sqrt.
2015-08-11T23:30:34Z Lokathor: anannie, you generally bootstrap a language's compiler at least once ever
2015-08-11T23:30:38Z Bike: in fact the entire definition is basically "exp returns e raised to the power number, where e is the base of the natural logarithms. exp has no branch cut."
2015-08-11T23:30:45Z Lokathor: thereafter, the language can be self-hosted
2015-08-11T23:31:06Z Bike: they just decided exp would make a better primitive than sqrt, which is hard to argue against
2015-08-11T23:31:15Z anannie: Bike: Oh so they define that in terms of binary operations.
2015-08-11T23:31:23Z Bike: Er, what?
2015-08-11T23:32:15Z anannie: Bike: As in that exp thing doesn't have any other functions to call upon other than dealing with the actual number. As in it's working on whatever definition of the number is... Am I wrong in that?
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2015-08-11T23:32:52Z Bike: the definition they give is just mathematical. you're expected to know what "e raised to" means from outside lisp sources (your math classes, presumably)
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2015-08-11T23:33:17Z Bike: giving another definition would just be a waste of everyone's time since you know math already
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2015-08-11T23:34:22Z anannie: Bike: No I know what that means, I'm trying to understand what it means from this perspective. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I'm trying to figure out what parts of it are written in terms like this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16990164/exponentiation-by-cyclic-shifting and what terms are done in the way sort was defined. But I guess this is a small waste of time
2015-08-11T23:34:34Z anannie: this perspective = the perspective of lisp
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2015-08-11T23:35:27Z Bike: well, that's a very particular definition, it basically prescribes a way of computing it that "(sqrt x) = (exp (/ (log x) 2))" doesn't (since exp and log are also not prescribed in that kind of detail)
2015-08-11T23:35:49Z jasom: anannie: An english dictionary is written entirely in english
2015-08-11T23:36:07Z anannie: jasom: Yes, and that's a genuine mystery...
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2015-08-11T23:36:22Z Bike: does this end in you reading Principia Mathematica
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2015-08-11T23:36:58Z Bike: or, what are the kids doing these days, homotypy type theory? probably that
2015-08-11T23:37:05Z anannie: Bike: Nah I'm stopping now. I'm just curious.
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2015-08-11T23:38:52Z Bike: the common lisp standard or at least the hyperspec are basically written for human comprehensibility. sometimes that means sample code definitions, that's all
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2015-08-11T23:39:18Z Lokathor: anannie, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach claims to have some answers for you on self-hosted systems
2015-08-11T23:39:24Z Lokathor: though every time i try to read the book i get a headache
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2015-08-11T23:42:20Z anannie: Bike, Lokathor: So I don't know a lot. I want to do my best to learn as much as I can and basically not be a giant disappointment.
2015-08-11T23:42:54Z Bike: don't worry about being a disappointment to me, at least, i don't even know who you are
2015-08-11T23:42:56Z Lokathor: i've been reading this book, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/, people say it's good, it seems alright so far, but definitely aimed at a mid level programmer
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2015-08-11T23:43:12Z jasom: minion: tell Lokathor about gentle
2015-08-11T23:43:13Z minion: Lokathor: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2015-08-11T23:43:21Z anannie: Bike: Well not you, the guy teaching me. He's been extraordinarily patient.
2015-08-11T23:44:00Z Lokathor: uhhhh
2015-08-11T23:44:08Z Lokathor: so i guess i want the PDF on this page?
2015-08-11T23:44:20Z Bike: if you don't want to buy a copy, yes
2015-08-11T23:44:23Z jasom: Lokathor: yes
2015-08-11T23:44:41Z Lokathor: rather, do i also need to grab the software and chart packages
2015-08-11T23:44:45Z Bike: i wouldn't worry about being a disappointment too much, just be chill
2015-08-11T23:45:31Z jasom: Lokathor: you'll need the "figures missing" too, it's a scan of the figures that are not in the pdf.  You won't need the "free software" until you get to chapter 3 IIRC
2015-08-11T23:46:13Z Lokathor: if i type in what's in the PDF on my own will that suffice?
2015-08-11T23:46:22Z jasom: Lokathor: yes
2015-08-11T23:46:32Z Lokathor: i suspect i will do that then
2015-08-11T23:47:04Z dwchandler: or use a pdf viewer that lets you copy text
2015-08-11T23:47:15Z anannie: Noob question #2. Hrm I have closure and I want the listener to download and add quicklisp and webutils. I'm doing the require command, but it's failing. Am I missing out on something over here?
2015-08-11T23:47:19Z Lokathor: ah, if it's OCR'd then that's perfect
2015-08-11T23:47:24Z dwchandler: I like to type things in, as that gets things into my brain
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2015-08-11T23:47:46Z jasom: anannie: I personally avoid using require
2015-08-11T23:47:47Z Lokathor: just looking at the first few pages of this book... it seems a little beginner
2015-08-11T23:47:51Z Bike: anannie: quicklisp.org has install instructions. require doesn't download things, generally, that's what quicklisp is actually for
2015-08-11T23:47:54Z Lokathor: I have programmed before and all
2015-08-11T23:47:59Z jasom: Lokathor: it starts out very beginner, but goes up from there
2015-08-11T23:48:24Z jasom: Lokathor: I mention it as an alternative to PCL as you mention it's "definitely aimed at a mid level programmer"
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2015-08-11T23:49:13Z Lokathor: ah, well mid level suits me
2015-08-11T23:49:15Z anannie: Bike: Installing. Thanks!
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2015-08-11T23:53:54Z Lokathor: i will save this symbolic lisp book for later, but i think for now i'm interested in powering through On Lisp instead and getting some working on some beginner projects
2015-08-11T23:54:13Z Lokathor: i feel like my haskell and python experience will be sufficient extra assistance
2015-08-11T23:54:55Z jasom: Lokathor: definitely
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2015-08-11T23:55:34Z Lokathor: Java experience, sadly, is rarely of assistance except as an example of what to avoid accidentally creating :/
2015-08-11T23:55:54Z dwchandler: I read the amazon reviews...very positive. Gotta remember this as a recommendation
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2015-08-12T00:14:00Z pjb: jasom: declare type is like C cast.  It doesn't do anything good.
2015-08-12T00:14:18Z pjb: jasom: use check-type.
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2015-08-12T00:53:57Z Lokathor: is there a version of map that doesn't need the return type specified?
2015-08-12T00:54:08Z pjb: the one you write.
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2015-08-12T00:54:26Z Lokathor: so there's no version that can automatically pick a return type based on the input type?
2015-08-12T00:54:27Z pjb: what will you return?
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2015-08-12T00:54:50Z pjb: what input type? MAP takes SEVERAL sequences!
2015-08-12T00:55:20Z Lokathor: ah, i suppose that's true. alright, the first sequence's type then
2015-08-12T00:55:27Z pjb: (map 'string (lambda (ch i) (code-char (+ (char-code ch) i))) "Hello" '(1 2 3 4 5)) #| --> "Igopt" |#
2015-08-12T00:55:38Z pjb: Lokathor: why the first/
2015-08-12T00:55:39Z pjb: ?
2015-08-12T00:55:42Z pjb: why not the last?
2015-08-12T00:55:49Z pjb: Or an average, or the super class?
2015-08-12T00:55:57Z pjb: WRITE YOUR OWN!
2015-08-12T00:56:21Z Lokathor: that's a pretty aggressive style you got there pal
2015-08-12T00:56:33Z Zhivago: He was bitten by a kindly person as a child.
2015-08-12T00:56:39Z pjb: I told you first the solution: write your own. And you insist…
2015-08-12T00:57:08Z Zhivago: Since that time they have inspired fear; this hostility is just a coping mechanism.
2015-08-12T00:57:37Z pjb: And later, you will complain why there are so many different ways to do a single thing in CL, like aref, elt, char, schar!
2015-08-12T00:57:46Z Lokathor: i am not yet skilled enough to craft every tool i can envision wanting to use; and so it's not unreasonable to ask if such a tool already exists
2015-08-12T00:57:58Z Zhivago: Reasonable complaints in this day and age.
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2015-08-12T00:58:15Z pjb: Lokathor: and you can't expect from a programming language to have already implemented all the little variants of al the functions  you might want or need.
2015-08-12T00:58:45Z pjb: EVAL is the ultimate: it's a CL function that will do everything you want.
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2015-08-12T00:59:01Z pjb: You don't need anything else.  Just pass the right parameter to EVAL.
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2015-08-12T01:00:14Z Lokathor: i don't think that wondering about a version of map that can just copy the input type as the output type is a particularly arcane request
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2015-08-12T01:02:08Z Zhivago: lokathor: I think that it is important to understand that CL was developed as a compatibility layer between various lisp dialects.
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2015-08-12T01:02:30Z Zhivago: lokathor: Many of which had lousy or non-existant static analysis capabilities.
2015-08-12T01:02:42Z Lokathor: that is beginning to show a bit in the tremendous amount of options, particularly keyword options, that lisp throws around
2015-08-12T01:02:43Z Bike: well, pjb's kind of weird but he's not wrong, there are a lot of types that can describe a given object
2015-08-12T01:02:46Z Zhivago: lokathor: (Which is why you have aref, elt, char, schar, etc).
2015-08-12T01:03:06Z Bike: plus your map wouldn't work for something as simple as (map 'string 'code-char #(some numbers here))
2015-08-12T01:03:15Z Zhivago: And also why CL tends to avoid trying to be intelligent about things like map.
2015-08-12T01:03:40Z Zhivago: The exceptions to these are the new stuff that CL bolted on, like CLOS, where they do try to be clever, rather than accommodating.
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2015-08-12T01:04:13Z Lokathor: Bike, from what i understand, the <some numbers> are in a vector? so the output would be a vector as well. or have i missed a detail?
2015-08-12T01:04:15Z Zhivago: The result is that you have a toolbox full of relatively primitive and specialized pieces, and using those directly can be ... disappointing.
2015-08-12T01:04:34Z Bike: Lokathor: could be a specialized vector, a vector that only holds some kind of number
2015-08-12T01:04:36Z Zhivago: So pjb's suggestion to paper over the top with some more intelligent interface isn't a terrible one.
2015-08-12T01:05:04Z phf: Bike: the intent behind bike's function is to return a string. that's a pretty common way to convert an octet array to a string
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2015-08-12T01:05:56Z Bike: don't get me wrong, i got my own issues with map, but just picking something based on the first argument isn't a great idea, i don't think
2015-08-12T01:05:56Z phf: err, Lokathor rather
2015-08-12T01:06:28Z Lokathor: well i don't think "use the first argument's type" is a good version for map to be changed to for all versions
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2015-08-12T01:06:41Z Lokathor: i just figured there might be, given that there's map and maphash, something like mapdefault
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2015-08-12T01:10:31Z phf: i just noticed while reading hyperspec, that first argument is actually a subtype. so something like (map (type-of "test") 'identity "test") works too
2015-08-12T01:11:20Z Lokathor: ah ha, and so a mapdefault macro becomes obvious i suppose
2015-08-12T01:13:15Z phf: there's no reason for it to be macro, but sure, (defun mapdefault (thunk sequence &rest rest) (apply 'map (type-of sequence) thunk sequence rest))
2015-08-12T01:13:42Z Zhivago: The other problem is that type dispatch is generally unresolvable.
2015-08-12T01:13:50Z Zhivago: You might do better with class dispatch.
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2015-08-12T01:14:05Z Lokathor: i was under the impression that, when possible, macros would be preferred over functions? because they don't give you a runtime cost
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2015-08-12T01:14:14Z phf: Zhivago: i provide a gun, shooting at feet is left as an exercise for a careless reader :)
2015-08-12T01:15:23Z |3b|: no, prefer functions
2015-08-12T01:15:33Z |3b|: you can't pass macros to things like map
2015-08-12T01:16:00Z |3b|: and if you are that worried about performance, get a better implementation or language
2015-08-12T01:16:08Z Zhivago: Also, a macro is hard put to guess what kind of thing will be passed to what it produces.
2015-08-12T01:16:13Z |3b|: (inlining should be as good for performance if it matters)
2015-08-12T01:16:29Z Zhivago: Think of a macro as a trivial compiler for extending the language.
2015-08-12T01:16:33Z Lokathor: a lisper telling a person to get a better language, heavens to betsy
2015-08-12T01:16:38Z Lokathor: :3
2015-08-12T01:16:48Z |3b| didn't say the better language wasn't lisp :)
2015-08-12T01:16:57Z |3b|: or that it exists for that matter
2015-08-12T01:17:04Z pjb: Common Lisp is a low level programming language.
2015-08-12T01:17:09Z Lokathor: though i do see the trouble with not being able to pass around a macro
2015-08-12T01:17:32Z Lokathor: pjb, how do you care to define high level and low level?
2015-08-12T01:18:01Z Zhivago: I think that the terms are generally meaningless, however ...
2015-08-12T01:18:02Z pjb: Wolfram language is high level.
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2015-08-12T01:18:26Z Lokathor: the language that... wolfram alpha the website uses?
2015-08-12T01:18:41Z Quadrescence: Lokathor, The rebranding of the language Mathematica uses.
2015-08-12T01:19:11Z Zhivago: CL has very limited options for expressing things about itself, as opposed to describing what it does procedurally.
2015-08-12T01:19:17Z Lokathor: ah, yes, okay. yeah wolfram alpha is basically a web interface over that, as i understand
2015-08-12T01:19:28Z Zhivago: In this regard it is similar to C.
2015-08-12T01:20:02Z Zhivago: So you have things like tagged values in stored in generic cells arranged into vectors.
2015-08-12T01:20:04Z Lokathor: isn't that an afliction of basically all imperative languages?
2015-08-12T01:20:25Z Zhivago: To some extent.
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2015-08-12T01:24:39Z pjb: Lokathor: you can also restrict yourself to lists, and just use mapcar.
2015-08-12T01:25:08Z Lokathor: unless there's some drastic performance hit, which i somewhat doubt with this being lisp and all, i expect i'll do just that most of the time
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2015-08-12T01:59:47Z spacebat`: In my code spelunking, I sometimes want to discover the accessors for an object, or more generally, given a class, find all the generic functions with methods that specialize on that class
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2015-08-12T02:01:21Z spacebat`: I can't always go to the source because the implementation (LW) is proprietary
2015-08-12T02:01:46Z pjb: spacebat`: do-symbols fbound symbol-function generic-function find-method
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2015-08-12T02:02:59Z spacebat`: yes I figured something could be cobbled together, but was hoping that there was something someone prepared earlier :)
2015-08-12T02:04:01Z Xach: spacebat`: i have often wished for a query system for things like that
2015-08-12T02:05:01Z Xach: or to get info like "how many functions have both &key and &optional" or "how many generic functions have exactly one parameter named self" or really a zillion other things
2015-08-12T02:05:26Z Xach wants the image to be a database
2015-08-12T02:05:47Z spacebat`: yes, as systems grow the questions get harder to answer
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2015-08-12T02:06:09Z Xach: the info is there, but the query mechanism is ad hoc
2015-08-12T02:06:21Z Zhivago: Just a matter of being able to instrument the system sufficiently to build your indexes.
2015-08-12T02:06:33Z Zhivago: Unfortunately you rapidly run into the re-implement CL issue.
2015-08-12T02:06:43Z spacebat`: thanks pjb
2015-08-12T02:06:48Z pjb: or patch an implementation.
2015-08-12T02:06:50Z spacebat`: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bdyFgTl05uk/UcDZy7-aXhI/AAAAAAAABgI/0njFPwbBgTA/s1600/promises.gif
2015-08-12T02:07:41Z Xach: Zhivago: instrument in what way?
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2015-08-12T02:08:37Z Zhivago: Well, if you instrument defgeneric and defmethod, for example ...
2015-08-12T02:09:03Z Xach: Zhivago: to what end?
2015-08-12T02:09:13Z spacebat`: we'll get drmeister to throw that into clasp
2015-08-12T02:09:26Z spacebat`: index all the things
2015-08-12T02:09:27Z Zhivago: To the end of building an index which can answer questions such as "how many generic functions have exactly one parameter named self".
2015-08-12T02:09:59Z Xach: Zhivago: Why do you need to instrument them? It seems like that information is already saved, but scattered.
2015-08-12T02:10:28Z Zhivago: Well, it depends on if you want to dynamically seach everywhere each time or not.
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2015-08-12T02:10:51Z Xach: I don't mind if it isn't fast if the frontend is convenient. It's all in memory, anyway.
2015-08-12T02:11:20Z theos: hey
2015-08-12T02:11:29Z Xach: To me it seems like a matter of exposing the existing data, not re-implementing CL.
2015-08-12T02:11:53Z Xach: If it really is a lot harder than that, there's one more pipe dream I can discard.
2015-08-12T02:12:57Z rme: In ccl, for example, there are internal functions that can map over all heap objects.  It's not hard to imagine using that sort of thing to map over all, e.g., generic-functions.
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2015-08-12T02:14:09Z Xach: the MOP has a lot of data, whatever provides argument lists and source locations to slime has a lot of data
2015-08-12T02:14:26Z Xach: the package system has data. so much data!
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2015-08-12T02:22:29Z PuercoPop: spacebat`: You can always check how slime does it: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank/lispworks.lisp#L833
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2015-08-12T02:25:22Z spacebat`: thanks PuercoPop
2015-08-12T02:27:11Z spacebat`: ah, there are no direct methods on this beast, I guess slot-value is as good as I'll get
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2015-08-12T02:29:09Z PuercoPop: it appears that the dspec package is used for browsers
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2015-08-12T02:30:31Z spacebat`: yes, and its also used for tracing and advising
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2015-08-12T02:33:17Z PuercoPop: Xach: I with CL was more like smalltalk in its introspection capabilities. Even impl-specific xref functionality is lacking. (ej. https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/504492).
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2015-08-12T02:57:31Z jason_m: I don't know near enough about unicode as I should.  What are the extra 194 bytes in:
2015-08-12T02:57:51Z jason_m: (trivial-utf-8:string-to-utf-8-bytes (map 'string #'code-char '(187 112 167 74))) => '(194 187 112 194 167 74)
2015-08-12T02:58:05Z Zhivago: Convert them to code points.
2015-08-12T03:00:38Z Xach: jason_m: UTF8 uses more than one octet to encode character codes higher than 127.
2015-08-12T03:00:47Z phf: jason_m: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description
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2015-08-12T03:00:56Z phf: what xach said
2015-08-12T03:00:59Z Xach: jason_m: the first octet encodes info about subsequent octets
2015-08-12T03:03:16Z jason_m: so the 194 applies to the byte that immediately follows?  There were two bytes in the original list higher than 127, so i can follow that
2015-08-12T03:03:44Z loke: jasom: Yes
2015-08-12T03:03:51Z loke: jason_m: i mean yes
2015-08-12T03:04:07Z Xach: ugh, jason_m isn't jasom?
2015-08-12T03:04:15Z Xach has been confused 
2015-08-12T03:04:39Z Xach: ya-jasom
2015-08-12T03:04:49Z theos: cl-jasom
2015-08-12T03:05:59Z jason_m: that is a similar nick... not me
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2015-08-12T03:07:06Z loke: jason_m: in UTF-8, a byte sequence consisting with bytes with the most significant bit set consists of 2 to 4 bytes that together form a single unicode code point.
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2015-08-12T03:07:14Z Xach is not Xah
2015-08-12T03:07:55Z loke: Thus, (babel:string-to-octets (string #\SNOWMAN)) → #(226 152 131)
2015-08-12T03:08:05Z loke: Xach: Thank FSM for that.
2015-08-12T03:08:25Z Bike: Xach Leec, hm
2015-08-12T03:09:22Z loke: While (babel:string-to-octets (string #\BUS_STOP)) → #(240 159 154 143)
2015-08-12T03:09:32Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-08-12T03:09:57Z drmeister: Just heading back from giving a talk at LispNYC
2015-08-12T03:10:10Z loke: drmeister: Cool. Did they record it?
2015-08-12T03:10:19Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-08-12T03:10:30Z loke: drmeister: Please share the video once it's available?
2015-08-12T03:10:53Z drmeister: I spoke and answered questions for an hour and a half.
2015-08-12T03:11:13Z drmeister: It's in the hands of the organizers
2015-08-12T03:14:07Z jason_m: ah hah!  this has all been very helpful.  the clsql postgresql-socket background, when using md5 auth reads 4 bytes representing a salt, converts them to a string, and passes them to md5sum-string...which appears to convert them back into unicode byte sequences
2015-08-12T03:15:42Z jason_m: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153518
2015-08-12T03:16:36Z jason_m: cl-postgres keeps the salt in bytes. postgresql-socket fails to login, cl-postgres works.
2015-08-12T03:20:06Z loke uses Kerberos auth for postgres, which os pretty awesome. And I'm not just saying that becasue I implemented cl-gss :-)
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2015-08-12T03:23:32Z jason_m: I can take a look at it.  I'm pretty new to lisp and I was playing with DB libs.  The first I ran into was Elephant using berkeley DB, which no longer builds.  Then I tried clsql with postgresql-socket, and i was unable to log in.  So I decided it was time for me to learn some debugging.
2015-08-12T03:23:39Z Fare: PuercoPop, maybe what you need is not #lisp but #factor
2015-08-12T03:23:58Z jason_m: So greatness of kerberos aside, I'm going to get to the bottom of this md5 auth
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2015-08-12T03:25:42Z jason_m: (I suspect it hasn't been fixed because everybody just moved over to postgresql-socket3... but that's beside the point)
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2015-08-12T03:26:05Z Xach: jason_m: for postgres, postmodern is really good.
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2015-08-12T03:28:30Z jason_m: Xach: I looked at postmodern (which uses cl-postgres for initiating the connection and auth) to see what it did differently
2015-08-12T03:29:01Z Xach: sorry, missed the cl-postgres connection.
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2015-08-12T03:38:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-12T03:43:44Z kristof: Lokathor: CL does not have parametric polymorphism built-in. So generics that you're used to (Being able to declare an input T and a return type T) are not common.
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2015-08-12T03:44:43Z Lokathor: there's a song called "a distant sadness" that plays in my mind when i hear news like that :/
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2015-08-12T03:45:28Z kristof: Lokathor: But notice that the ad-hoc version (MAP) is just as flexible, if perhaps more flexible, because rather than having a function map: T -> T, CL's map is map: T -> S all because it operates over the generic sequence interface
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2015-08-12T03:46:32Z beach: Perhaps one could say that parametric polymorphism is useful as a kludge for languages that insist on static typing.
2015-08-12T03:46:37Z Lokathor: i'd take Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b, were lisp to offer it
2015-08-12T03:47:16Z kristof: Lokathor: I am not saying one is more preferable than the other. My other favorite languages are Haskell and Rust, but I am just as `generic' in CL as I am in those languages. Not to mention I am more flexible in Common Lisp because of arbitrary compile time programming. You can emulate parametric polymorphism *easily* by... are you familiar with C++'s templates?
2015-08-12T03:47:46Z Lokathor: i've never gotten into c++
2015-08-12T03:47:55Z Lokathor: i hear their template engine is turing complete though
2015-08-12T03:47:59Z kristof: At the end of the day, it's just smarter copy-paste. So you can write a macro that lets you substitute in type names and pastes them in DECLARE forms.
2015-08-12T03:48:12Z kristof: And it will work almost equivalently.
2015-08-12T03:48:48Z kristof: But beach is right! I don't actually care for parametric polymorphism in CL. Never seem to want it.
2015-08-12T03:49:31Z Bike: i wrote a really cheap parametric polymorphism templating thing once for the sake of a point. with lexical types it could have even been good
2015-08-12T03:49:34Z kristof: Because CL is dynamically typed, if the return type of my generic function supports some operation and I call that operation, everything is good, and I am allowed to do it.
2015-08-12T03:49:42Z loke: kristof: isn't parametric polymoorphism what DEFGENERIC provides? Or have I misunderstood the term?
2015-08-12T03:50:09Z kristof: loke: That is ad-hoc. Parametric is what generics in other languages like Java and C# provide.
2015-08-12T03:50:41Z Lokathor: i've yet to start getting to the real examples of the book, so some of this talk is currently beyond me
2015-08-12T03:50:49Z beach: Ah, interesting.  Another term for my collection of politically-motivated terminology.
2015-08-12T03:50:51Z kristof: Bike: How was it not lexical?
2015-08-12T03:50:58Z pjb:  /msg - pjb
2015-08-12T03:51:02Z Bike: how was what not lexical?
2015-08-12T03:51:04Z loke: kristof: Then I don't understand what the discussion is about. Having that in Lisp is nonsensical, because of dynamic typing.
2015-08-12T03:51:12Z kristof: Right, that's what beach and I said.
2015-08-12T03:52:12Z kristof: beach: I am not diametrically opposed to static typing. People like it for good reasons. And in those languages, you need parametric polymorphism, or else your expressiveness is reduced.
2015-08-12T03:52:26Z pjb: kristof: (declaim (notinline f)) (loop for x in '(1 2.3 "quatro" cinco) do (setf (symbol-function 'f) (coerce `(lambda () ',x) 'function)) collect (f)) #| --> (1 2.3 "quatro" cinco) |#
2015-08-12T03:52:30Z pjb: type that!
2015-08-12T03:52:46Z beach: kristof:  I know.  It's just that we are currently in #lisp.
2015-08-12T03:53:13Z Bike: (theh list (loop for x in ...))
2015-08-12T03:53:14Z kristof: beach: Right, and I agree, I was also just trying to answer Lokathor's question as thoroughly as possible.
2015-08-12T03:53:30Z pjb: Bike:  :-)
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2015-08-12T04:05:29Z jason_m: it connects!
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2015-08-12T04:15:55Z beach: drmeister: How did the talk go?
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2015-08-12T04:49:49Z drmeister: Good, but I went too long.  Questions went on for a long time as well.
2015-08-12T04:50:30Z drmeister: I was up there for about one hour and 45 minutes.
2015-08-12T04:50:52Z drmeister: I lost track of time and my audience had the patience of Job.
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2015-08-12T04:51:33Z drmeister: But questions went on for a long time as well so I guess it was ok.
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2015-08-12T04:54:02Z drmeister: Raymond de Lcaze says Hello
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2015-08-12T04:58:51Z beach: To everyone here?
2015-08-12T04:59:18Z beach: He organized ILC in San Francisco, right?
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2015-08-12T05:02:53Z drmeister: To you.  I think so, he said that you spoke at the first or one of the first lisp conferences he organized
2015-08-12T05:03:07Z beach: Yes, true.
2015-08-12T05:03:12Z drmeister: There were about 30 people there.
2015-08-12T05:03:35Z beach: 2002
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2015-08-12T05:39:22Z jackdaniel: Fare: what do you mean by "proper ecl context" ?
2015-08-12T05:40:03Z beach: drmeister: Still around?
2015-08-12T05:40:04Z jackdaniel: Fare: regarding windows and mac - I can set up virtual machine for former eventually, but I have virtually no access to macintosh machine
2015-08-12T05:40:07Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-12T05:40:13Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-08-12T05:40:25Z drmeister: Hello, yes - I'm still around
2015-08-12T05:41:16Z beach: drmeister: In the long term, I would like to change the way top-level forms are handled.
2015-08-12T05:41:37Z drmeister: Ok, how would that work?
2015-08-12T05:41:44Z beach: drmeister: Currently, you have your own method with an array of values.
2015-08-12T05:42:17Z beach: You did that because you were afraid that the number of values passed to the top-level enter instruction would be too great.
2015-08-12T05:42:20Z beach: Remember?
2015-08-12T05:42:47Z drmeister: That was one reason - yes.
2015-08-12T05:43:01Z beach: What were some others?
2015-08-12T05:43:54Z drmeister: Yes, but I'm not sure they are as valid.  One is because I currently need to store those values in GC managed memory while the code is not in GC managed memory.
2015-08-12T05:44:15Z drmeister: So putting them all in an array and indexing them with an integer index seemed like a good way to go.
2015-08-12T05:44:20Z drmeister: But please go on.
2015-08-12T05:45:30Z beach: I think we should do a LIST of values instead, and make the top-level enter the equivalent of (lambda (values) (let ((v1 (pop values)) (v2 (pop values)) ... (vn (pop values))) ....))
2015-08-12T05:46:12Z beach: Then the top-level enter would have a single argument.
2015-08-12T05:46:24Z beach: And you would not need an array, which messes things up at the HIR level.
2015-08-12T05:46:40Z beach: Because now you have your custom technique for accessing load-time values.
2015-08-12T05:47:12Z beach: If you agree, I will figure out a smooth migration path for you.
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2015-08-12T05:47:42Z beach: So that you can do the conversion at your convenience.
2015-08-12T05:48:15Z drmeister: And then everything used by inner functions goes into closures?
2015-08-12T05:48:36Z beach: As before.
2015-08-12T05:49:07Z beach: Nothing changes, except that instead of a single closed-over variable (the array) you would have v1, v2, etc closed over.
2015-08-12T05:49:26Z beach: If you don't agree, I'll figure out something else.
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2015-08-12T05:50:15Z drmeister: I don't see any downsides to this other than the initial unspooling of the list - do you see any?
2015-08-12T05:50:29Z beach: That one will be done at compile time.
2015-08-12T05:50:41Z beach: So there are no disadvantages that I can see.
2015-08-12T05:51:35Z beach: If the HIR program represents a function, it will look like (lambda (list) (let ((v1 (pop list))) ...) (lambda (arg1 ...) ...))
2015-08-12T05:51:50Z beach: So the POPs will be executed at "link time".
2015-08-12T05:52:52Z beach: I am also planning to write a load-time-value coalescence routine so that you can remove yours.
2015-08-12T05:52:59Z drmeister: The closures would be a lot larger wouldn't they?  The enclose-instruction would get a lot more arguments.
2015-08-12T05:53:23Z beach: That's true.
2015-08-12T05:53:32Z beach: If that's a problem, I'll figure out something else.
2015-08-12T05:54:07Z drmeister: It's not clear to me that it would be.  is the enclose-instruction ever in a tight loop?
2015-08-12T05:54:21Z beach: No, it's all done at compile time.
2015-08-12T05:54:33Z beach: ... or "link time".
2015-08-12T05:54:56Z drmeister: Go ahead then, I'll trust your judgement on this.
2015-08-12T05:55:02Z beach: OK.
2015-08-12T05:55:07Z drmeister: Rather, don't worry about me, I'll keep up.
2015-08-12T05:55:26Z beach: I will definitely make sure that there is no disruption.
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2015-08-12T05:55:53Z beach: I'll provide both techniques for a while, and let you convert when you want, compare the result and see whether it is acceptable.
2015-08-12T05:56:01Z drmeister: This is your bailiwick.
2015-08-12T05:56:24Z drmeister: How does it help in optimizing HIR?
2015-08-12T05:56:28Z beach: Still, you are my customer.
2015-08-12T05:56:50Z beach: It helps by my not having to take into account special instructions that you introduce.
2015-08-12T05:57:37Z beach: I need to figure out lexical locations to which either T or NIL is written.
2015-08-12T05:57:37Z drmeister: I see, I have a few others, derived classes of enter and return to handle landing pads.
2015-08-12T05:58:02Z beach: Those should not be a problem.
2015-08-12T05:58:07Z beach: As long as they are subclasses.
2015-08-12T05:58:35Z drmeister: But yes, these precalc-values and precalc-symbols are sources of T and NIL
2015-08-12T05:58:52Z beach: But the way you handle constants is specific, and I would rather avoid putting Clasp-specific code in Cleavir if at all possible.
2015-08-12T05:59:09Z drmeister: So every function will get a closure that contains at least T and NIL - correct?
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2015-08-12T05:59:35Z beach: Not necessarily, but very likely.
2015-08-12T05:59:47Z drmeister: A frame
2015-08-12T06:00:02Z beach: In the long run, I would like to do the hoisting at the HIR level.  But...
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2015-08-12T06:00:24Z beach: I remember having a good reason for doing it at the AST level.  I just can't remember what it was.
2015-08-12T06:00:35Z beach: So I am just going to try to do it both ways.
2015-08-12T06:00:56Z beach: Or rather, provide both techniques for doing it for a while.
2015-08-12T06:05:15Z beach: This is nothing you need to worry about.
2015-08-12T06:05:19Z beach: I am just telling you.
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2015-08-12T06:06:08Z beach: In the worst case, I'll work a bit harder and keep the old technique as well.
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2015-08-12T06:07:56Z drmeister: Ok.
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2015-08-12T06:09:58Z beach: My bad memory (which has been bad as long as I can remember) creates additional work for me.  I sometimes find myself making a significant change, only to discover that it won't work, and that I have actually tried it in the past.
2015-08-12T06:10:41Z beach: This time I do remember that I used to not do the hoisting at the AST level and that I had good reasons for changing that.
2015-08-12T06:11:01Z beach: But I can't remember the reason, so I don't know whether the reason is still there.
2015-08-12T06:11:33Z beach: The only way I can think of to figure it out, is to try again to do it the old way and see where it fails if it does.
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2015-08-12T06:15:27Z beach: drmeister: And you think YOU have problems!  Bah!
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2015-08-12T06:17:03Z theos gives some almonds to beach 
2015-08-12T06:17:14Z drmeister: Thank you github.
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2015-08-12T06:20:42Z beach: Anyway.  Time to get to work!
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2015-08-12T09:07:15Z PuercoPop: Fare: I thought Factor was 'forth for the JVM', but it appears it uses reflection a lot. Thanks for the pointer.
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2015-08-12T09:20:52Z jewel_: PuercoPop, factor has its own VM
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2015-08-12T11:32:20Z antoszka: I hope not the caprices, these are some of the ugliest pieces of music ever composed for violin.
2015-08-12T11:32:35Z jackdaniel: well, funny story…
2015-08-12T11:33:09Z antoszka: Turn it off, I'll give you something better. And let's take it off-channel. :)
2015-08-12T11:33:27Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-12T11:40:40Z pjb: antoszka: #lispcafe has a jukebox.
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2015-08-12T11:53:45Z Fare: jackdaniel, I meant, determining in which circumstances to %use-run-program vs %use-system.
2015-08-12T11:54:26Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-08-12T11:54:38Z jackdaniel: thanks for clarification
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2015-08-12T12:15:27Z Fare: jackdaniel, I don't know what is the status of hackintosh VMs, these days.
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2015-08-12T16:18:02Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-08-12T16:19:06Z Vityok: oleo: hi
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2015-08-12T16:19:29Z oleo: hello Vityok
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2015-08-12T16:34:47Z pjb: helloleo!
2015-08-12T16:35:48Z oleo: heya pjb :)
2015-08-12T16:35:51Z oleo: how is it going ?
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2015-08-12T16:39:56Z jasom: loke: Xach nope, it's not me.  When I was in college, there were 3 people with the same first-name, middle-initial and last-name as me, so my e-mail ended with a 3 :(
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2015-08-12T16:42:37Z pjb: That's what you get for being a clone :-)
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2015-08-12T16:49:49Z mtl_: i'm having trouble getting mezzano built
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2015-08-12T16:53:32Z mtl_: http://pastie.org/10346724#
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2015-08-12T16:53:37Z mtl_: anyone else run into this?
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2015-08-12T17:05:59Z Xach: mtl_: i don't have a useful answer, sorry, but i'm curious: what sbcl version are you using?
2015-08-12T17:06:17Z mtl_: 1.2.10
2015-08-12T17:07:04Z mtl_: I found a similar report here http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-bugs/thread/87y4svj469.fsf@cantab.net/
2015-08-12T17:07:40Z mtl_: but both our sbcl and iterate version don't match, so not sure how relevant it is
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2015-08-12T17:10:02Z Xach: mtl_: do you have the same trouble with the latest sbcl?
2015-08-12T17:11:15Z mtl_: i'll give it a try, hang on
2015-08-12T17:11:43Z mtl_: Xach: I left it at 1.2.10 since the mezzano BUILD file says it's known to work
2015-08-12T17:11:56Z Xach: Oh, ok.
2015-08-12T17:12:13Z mtl_: it also says newer ones should work though.
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2015-08-12T17:13:09Z mtl_: same error with 1.2.12, which is the latest version in the arch repos at least
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2015-08-12T17:29:33Z mtl_: Xach: curiously enough, iterate builds fine if I load the one in the quicklisp "repo" and not the locally downloaded one
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2015-08-12T17:29:44Z Xach: mtl_: weird.
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2015-08-12T17:31:53Z mtl_: I guess i'll just try having it use that one then
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2015-08-12T17:57:35Z jlarocco_work: can anybody explain why in SBCL I can use (with-output-to-file (outs "filename") (format outs "hello file!")) from the Slime REPL, but not from a script using #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script
2015-08-12T17:59:10Z scymtym: jlarocco_work: how does it fail?
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2015-08-12T17:59:54Z jlarocco_work: undefined variable outf, undefined function with-output-to-file
2015-08-12T18:00:10Z jlarocco_work: i guess I'm more curious why it works at all in the REPL
2015-08-12T18:00:20Z jlarocco_work: oops, outs is the undefine variable
2015-08-12T18:01:02Z jlarocco_work: i was thinking of scheme, and the CL version would be (with-open-file (...) ...)
2015-08-12T18:01:22Z scymtym: there is ALEXANDRIA:WITH-OUTPUT-TO-FILE
2015-08-12T18:01:30Z scymtym: maybe you used that in your REPL session
2015-08-12T18:01:59Z jlarocco_work: oh, oops, that's the reason
2015-08-12T18:02:14Z jlarocco_work: thanks!
2015-08-12T18:02:29Z scymtym: np
2015-08-12T18:03:06Z dxtr: Hi! I'm using getopt to parse argv, but I'm having a minor issue. If I run the file compiled the first part of argv will be the name of the binary but if I run it interpreted it will be the path to sbcl.
2015-08-12T18:03:36Z dxtr: Is there a way to find out if I am running compiled or not without parsing the first part of argv to try to decide if it's sbcl or not?
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2015-08-12T18:06:06Z Xach: dxtr: you could do something during the compilation process that sets a variable to indicate that.
2015-08-12T18:06:13Z Xach: dxtr: there are truly very many options
2015-08-12T18:07:17Z dxtr: Xach: This is true. But.. Uuh.. Excuse my ignorance (I've been doing common lisp for a week); how do I rung something at compile-time and compile-time only?
2015-08-12T18:07:46Z dxtr: I mean flipping a flag would be simple enough (right?)
2015-08-12T18:07:56Z Xach: dxtr: when you write "compile", do you mean producing a single binary file to run? if so, be aware that CL has compile-file and compile, which do something different.
2015-08-12T18:08:18Z Xach: dxtr: and if that is what you do mean, how are you producing that binary file?
2015-08-12T18:08:37Z dxtr: Xach: Whatever buildapp does, basically :)
2015-08-12T18:09:02Z dxtr: Oh, hold on
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2015-08-12T18:09:14Z dxtr: Sigh.. I'm a moron
2015-08-12T18:09:15Z Xach: dxtr: ok. then you could add an option to buildapp like --eval "(defvar cl-user::*compiled-with-buildapp* t)" or something.
2015-08-12T18:09:25Z dxtr: Yeah, that's exactly what came to my mind
2015-08-12T18:09:50Z dxtr: What namespace is cl-user?
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2015-08-12T18:10:07Z Xach: namespace is not a Lisp term. CL-USER is the name of a standard package.
2015-08-12T18:10:48Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.2 discusses it
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2015-08-12T18:11:33Z Xach: Since it is guaranteed to exist, it can be useful to reference when you don't define a new package. But otherwise it can be better to actually use your own package, as everyone must share cl-user.
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2015-08-12T18:11:52Z dxtr: Ah, right
2015-08-12T18:14:35Z dxtr: Well I am defining my own package, so :)
2015-08-12T18:15:33Z Xach: perfect. you could have (defvar *compiled* nil) and --eval "(setf my-own-package::*compiled* t)" in buildapp.
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2015-08-12T18:16:18Z dxtr: That's literally exactly what I did :)
2015-08-12T18:16:32Z dxtr: Even the variable name was the same
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2015-08-12T18:18:14Z dxtr: Thanks, Xach!
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2015-08-12T18:18:30Z Xach: no problem
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2015-08-12T18:20:01Z dxtr: Also, is (rest) just an alias for (cdr) or is it better in any way?
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2015-08-12T18:20:44Z dxtr: Or are they totally different?
2015-08-12T18:20:52Z Xach: dxtr: they do the same thing. the difference is in what is communicated by using one or the other. generally, REST means you are treating the argument as a list, and CDR means you are treating the argument as a cons.
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2015-08-12T18:21:00Z Xach: conses can be used for more than just making up lists.
2015-08-12T18:21:07Z dxtr: Right
2015-08-12T18:21:33Z Xach: dxtr: now, not everyone always agrees with or follows that concept, so when reading code you can't always tell if someone means that.
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2015-08-12T18:30:28Z dxtr: Right
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2015-08-12T19:31:34Z jasom: dxtr: see allso NOT and NULL
2015-08-12T19:32:02Z jasom: both return T if the argument is nil, and nil otherwise.
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2015-08-12T19:33:09Z Xach: and endp
2015-08-12T19:33:24Z jasom: though their specifications are different; NOT returns t if its argument is "false" and NULL returns t if its argument is the empty-list.  If you follow enough glossary entries that shows that in both cases it means nil
2015-08-12T19:33:34Z jasom: Xach: endp is different
2015-08-12T19:33:42Z jasom: it signals a type-error for a non-list
2015-08-12T19:33:50Z Xach: phew
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2015-08-12T19:36:08Z Quadrescence: (LAMBDA (BOOLEAN) (FUNCALL (COMPLEMENT (CONSTANTLY BOOLEAN))))
2015-08-12T19:36:16Z Quadrescence: (FUNCALL * NIL) ;)
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2015-08-12T20:10:02Z Xach: I wonder if uiop has been tested with allegro 10.
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2015-08-12T20:10:31Z dom01: ciao
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2015-08-12T20:10:33Z dom01: !list
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2015-08-12T20:24:52Z loz1: do named functions store their names?
2015-08-12T20:26:45Z loz1: slime inspector shows that #'car has name 'car, looks like they are more than just lambdas stored inside symbol function slot
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2015-08-12T20:28:52Z Xach: loz1: there is a lot of freedom in how function data is stored in an actual implementation.
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2015-08-12T20:32:57Z loz1: Xach: I see, sbcl has name stored inside function, and redefining and even uninterning the name symbol doesn't affect function name
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2015-08-12T20:55:29Z jackdaniel: (defun collect () (let (acc) (lambda (&rest args) (setf acc (nconc acc args)))))
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2015-08-12T20:57:55Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, what is the point of that function
2015-08-12T20:58:30Z jackdaniel: hm, collecting all arguments passed to returned function
2015-08-12T20:58:58Z k-stz: acc is not being closed over, this shouldn't work
2015-08-12T20:59:09Z jackdaniel: k-stz: what do you mean?
2015-08-12T20:59:19Z Quadrescence: k-stz, the lambda is capturing it?
2015-08-12T20:59:21Z jackdaniel: it's closed over returned function
2015-08-12T20:59:33Z k-stz: oh right i misread
2015-08-12T20:59:42Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, if it's to be used a lot then it is a bit slow ;)
2015-08-12T21:00:24Z jackdaniel: yeah, but for mop:map-dependencies it will collect all of them for instance
2015-08-12T21:01:03Z jackdaniel: just found it elegant for particular class of problems - hence shared it
2015-08-12T21:01:22Z jackdaniel: nothing nifty enough to solder to some lib though
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2015-08-12T21:03:56Z k-stz: what's slow about it? the extra function invokation?
2015-08-12T21:04:05Z jackdaniel: nconc traverses whole list
2015-08-12T21:04:10Z jackdaniel: longer it is, longer it takes
2015-08-12T21:04:20Z k-stz: ah
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2015-08-12T21:04:51Z jackdaniel: usually if list is used elts are #'push ed and nreversed at the end
2015-08-12T21:05:13Z jackdaniel: but if we want to append many elements, we can't push them
2015-08-12T21:05:27Z jackdaniel: I'm out, gn all o/ :)
2015-08-12T21:05:35Z ejbs: (nreverse-p &rest args)?
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2015-08-12T21:05:43Z ejbs: oh
2015-08-12T21:05:59Z Quadrescence: jackdaniel, perhaps not as elegant but how i'd do it probably: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/70a47b01a62dcd2c0362e7a29623b5520ead4ed4/collect.lisp
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2015-08-12T21:07:06Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: yeah, that's nice optimization :)
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2015-08-12T21:08:55Z ejbs: Quadrescence: Feels like that function would look prettier in C
2015-08-12T21:09:31Z Quadrescence: ejbs, yes, I would love to see that wacky stuff like VA_LIST or vaargs or whayever it is ;)
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2015-08-12T21:10:11Z Quadrescence: ejbs, and C won't be able to have a nice closure so you'll have to make some proxy object, etc
2015-08-12T21:10:17Z Quadrescence: I suspect it would be a lot less pretty ;)
2015-08-12T21:10:49Z ejbs: I was thinking about how you're pretty much playing with pointers when you use the cons cells like that :)
2015-08-12T21:11:06Z ejbs: (but yeah, you're right)
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2015-08-12T21:45:27Z dxtr: Can I turn off echo for stdin? I'm using sbcl if there's no portable way to do it :)
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2015-08-12T21:46:24Z Quadrescence: dxtr, what do you mean?
2015-08-12T21:46:39Z Quadrescence: you mean at the REPL?
2015-08-12T21:46:56Z dxtr: No. Let's say I want to read a passphrase from stdin
2015-08-12T21:47:03Z dxtr: And I don't want it showing up on the screen
2015-08-12T21:48:50Z Quadrescence: dxtr, You cannot do that with standard Common Lisp, and you'd be served by using some sort of terminal interaction library.
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2015-08-12T21:49:57Z Quadrescence: dxtr, You could implement that using CL-CHARMS: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms
2015-08-12T21:51:11Z Quadrescence: dxtr, specifically using CHARMS:DISABLE-ECHOING and CHARMS:GET-CHAR
2015-08-12T21:51:24Z dxtr: Well that's nice.
2015-08-12T21:52:02Z Quadrescence: But it may be a bit heavyweight of a solution...
2015-08-12T21:52:13Z dxtr: https://github.com/marsijanin/iolib.termios <- This seems like something too
2015-08-12T21:52:22Z dxtr: I have implemented it in C using termios before
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2015-08-12T21:52:44Z Quadrescence: yes that could work too
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2015-08-12T21:54:43Z dxtr: It's a little more lightweight than curses and it's posix(?)
2015-08-12T21:54:59Z dxtr: But on the other hand curses is installed more or less everywhere :)
2015-08-12T21:56:23Z Quadrescence: Curses probably takes more setup too. You have to define a window and all that
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2015-08-12T21:57:04Z dxtr: Oh, that's true
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2015-08-12T22:00:09Z varjagg: is there a way to trim slime repl buffer quickly?
2015-08-12T22:00:35Z varjagg: when a function returns ungodly large object, it drags emacs to near halt
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2015-08-12T22:00:59Z varjagg: other than restarting inferiror that is
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2015-08-12T22:04:45Z Quadrescence: varjagg, yes M-x slime-repl-clear-buffer
2015-08-12T22:04:56Z Quadrescence: or the last output: M-x slime-repl-clear-output
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2015-08-12T22:07:33Z varjagg: thank you so much
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2015-08-13T00:57:35Z jasom: dxtr: you could probably directly call termios with ffi
2015-08-13T00:57:50Z jasom: if you don't care about portability anyway
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2015-08-13T03:48:16Z Lokathor: so i'm reading about the CLOS system
2015-08-13T03:48:27Z Lokathor: and a lot of this is quickly sounding like esoteric stuff
2015-08-13T03:48:57Z Lokathor: how often do folks write :before :after and :around methods?
2015-08-13T03:49:31Z Oladon: Depends on the project... I'm using them quite extensively in a current project
2015-08-13T03:50:14Z pillton: You write :after methods frequently e.g. initialize-instance method.
2015-08-13T03:50:50Z Lokathor: it seems like making an :after method is kinda like calling a superclass's method before doing some more work in your own class's implementation (to make a java example)
2015-08-13T03:51:52Z pillton: Methods are owned by generic functions not by classes. There is no direct comparison to Java.
2015-08-13T03:52:32Z vrrm: Lokathor: tinyclos (for scheme) is basically a small CLOS system for Scheme that at least the implementor felt was the essential minimal feature set of CLOS.
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2015-08-13T03:52:41Z vrrm: You might want to take a look at that.
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2015-08-13T03:53:00Z Lokathor: perhaps i will when i venture into scheme things
2015-08-13T03:53:21Z Lokathor: the next few weeks my goal is a common lisp IRC bot that can play a game of some sort with users in a room
2015-08-13T03:54:22Z Oladon: Lokathor: an excellent aspiration
2015-08-13T03:54:26Z Lokathor: it feels like i won't need to write my own CLOS stuff to do this, but i might need to call CLOS code, so i'm reading the whole book and doing all the examples before i start the IRC bot
2015-08-13T03:54:59Z pillton: Which book?
2015-08-13T03:55:18Z Lokathor: Practical Common Lisp
2015-08-13T03:55:22Z Oladon: Good book.
2015-08-13T03:55:55Z Lokathor: i'm running the bot with SBCL, so some sort of bank or money themed pun is probably what i'll do. Like a stock market game or monopoly or such
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2015-08-13T03:56:26Z Oladon: You could do that crate/money game... Let's Make a Deal?
2015-08-13T03:56:31Z Oladon: I think that's what it's called.
2015-08-13T03:56:44Z Lokathor: ah, that's another good one
2015-08-13T03:57:02Z Oladon: Monopoly might be a bit ambitious :P
2015-08-13T03:57:51Z Lokathor: actually i think monopoly is still patented >_>
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2015-08-13T04:01:05Z phf: multiplayer monopoly interactive fiction
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2015-08-13T04:01:36Z Lokathor: i do want to hook a zmachine up to an IRC bot, but perhaps that's best for another language
2015-08-13T04:03:32Z phf: i think ZIL compiler was some kind of lisp, or perhaps the resemblance is only superficial
2015-08-13T04:04:08Z phf: http://xlisp.org/zil.pdf
2015-08-13T04:05:45Z Lokathor: yes, i would definitely write such a thing in haskell i think
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2015-08-13T04:17:00Z Lokathor: pillton, it seems that lisp methods that only specialize on a single type are broadly analagous to java/c++ methods, even though the ownership is a little different
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2015-08-13T04:20:55Z spacebat`: pillton: and they have no privileged access to the data in the object
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2015-08-13T04:22:08Z spacebat`: err, Lokathor
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2015-08-13T04:24:51Z Lokathor: so when you have a method that's specialied on a more specific type than the superclass, you can skip calling CALL-NEXT-METHOD right?
2015-08-13T04:25:09Z Lokathor: and the effect is that the specialized method completely overrides the superclass behavior
2015-08-13T04:25:23Z Lokathor: the more specialized*
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2015-08-13T05:00:18Z loke: Lokathor: the :AROUND, :BEFORE and :AFTER methods will still be called
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2015-08-13T05:09:49Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-13T05:17:28Z Oladon: Evening jackdaniel
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2015-08-13T05:17:56Z jackdaniel: heh, timezones
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2015-08-13T05:24:17Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: on the other hand your solution conses much more (/me rereads code)
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2015-08-13T05:25:22Z antonv: is Daniel Weinreb blog archive available anywhere?
2015-08-13T05:25:35Z antonv: because http://danweinreb.org/ hosts something else now
2015-08-13T05:26:10Z jackdaniel: antonv: have you tried archive.org?
2015-08-13T05:26:35Z jackdaniel: https://web.archive.org/web/20150216220934/http://danweinreb.org/ for instance
2015-08-13T05:26:38Z antonv: jackdaniel: right, good idea
2015-08-13T05:26:53Z jackdaniel: wonderful project btw (archive.org that is)
2015-08-13T05:28:55Z antonv: yes, it is, no doubt
2015-08-13T05:29:02Z antonv: and I found what I needed
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2015-08-13T05:29:25Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-08-13T05:30:50Z antonv: jackdaniel: how is going with ECL?
2015-08-13T05:31:51Z jackdaniel: good, I plan release candidate in up to two weeks from now
2015-08-13T05:32:09Z jackdaniel: and I understand code a lot better :)
2015-08-13T05:32:12Z antonv: jackdaniel: what's new in the planned release?
2015-08-13T05:32:48Z jackdaniel: antonv: roughly https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/CHANGELOG
2015-08-13T05:33:00Z jackdaniel: (pending changes …)
2015-08-13T05:33:45Z jackdaniel: this is what is actually done, also I've fixed lately make check and regressions tests framework
2015-08-13T05:34:46Z vrrm: jackdaniel: aren't we do for the summer eddition of ecl quarterly?  :)
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2015-08-13T05:35:47Z jackdaniel: yeah, at 2015-08-20, I'm writing it. Sadly nobody contirbuted any essay yet
2015-08-13T05:35:48Z antonv: jackdaniel: cool, lot of good changes
2015-08-13T05:36:34Z jackdaniel: yes, and release number will be 16.0.0, and since that we will go with last digit for minor changes, middle for major and first for api breakage
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2015-08-13T05:41:34Z antonv: jackdaniel: api breakage? what breakage?
2015-08-13T05:42:48Z jackdaniel: antonv: I hope there won't be any :-) I mean, that after this release first number "16" won't change, unless we will make some non backward-compatible change
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2015-08-13T05:47:03Z jackdaniel: I also poked number of libraries to make them more ecl compatible
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2015-08-13T05:50:21Z vrrm: jackdaniel: that great to hear! I've really been enjoying playing around with with ECL.  I can't believe that it's not more wellknown.  CERN has developed a vast project, ROOT, to provide a C/C++ repl.,   yet in several ways ECL is superior.
2015-08-13T05:51:04Z jackdaniel: vrrm: yeah, I find it really enjoying piece of software to work with :)
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2015-08-13T05:51:37Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: this doesn't cons that much and uses your optimization http://ix.io/keB
2015-08-13T05:51:52Z vrrm: Just one example is that ROOT syntax isn't quite valid C/C++ so anything code you develop has to be tweaked. ECL allows you to write totally strict C in a real time repl.
2015-08-13T05:52:54Z jackdaniel: vrrm: with assumption ECL is baked with cc compiler, you can't inline with bytecmp
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2015-08-13T05:56:07Z vrrm: jackdaniel: True, but that's esentially the case with the latest version of ROOT too which requires a CLANG backend library.  with ECL you have to the option to compile everything and dispense with the your compiler backend.
2015-08-13T05:56:40Z Zhivago: Well, ECL relies on building .so's and dynamically linking them, for that, iirc.
2015-08-13T05:56:41Z jackdaniel: btw I've checked out EQL project lately - really nice
2015-08-13T05:57:16Z vrrm: I shouldn't disparage ROOT, it's actually a much larger project then just a C/C++ repl and  is very impressive.... Just amazed that that same capability is bundled in with ECL.
2015-08-13T05:57:44Z Zhivago: I suspect that it is not really the same at all.
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2015-08-13T05:58:08Z Zhivago: ECL will be writing out .c files, compiling them to .so, and then dlopen'ing them.
2015-08-13T05:58:35Z Zhivago: There will be no introspection, etc, or modification of existing code.
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2015-08-13T05:59:01Z Zhivago: I presume that root will be doing something rather more complete -- which is understandable, since ECL didn't set out to be a C/C++ repl.
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2015-08-13T06:01:08Z jackdaniel: we may call it poor-men-c/c++-repl ;-)
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2015-08-13T06:02:41Z jackdaniel: Zhivago: generally you're right, but ecl builds also .o / .fasl files where appropriate and often utlizes dffi to access foreign stuff
2015-08-13T06:03:09Z jackdaniel: (just as a sidenote, as said - you're right)
2015-08-13T06:03:57Z phadthai: bdwgc == boehm-gc?
2015-08-13T06:04:17Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-08-13T06:04:17Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-08-13T06:04:53Z vrrm: But, if my workflow is: develop c code snippette, test it, refactor it, generallize, repeate.  ECL is great!  (I'll try not to insist 'better than' since it's not an apples to apples comparison.)  I've used it to interactively work with several c libraries.
2015-08-13T06:04:59Z phadthai: jackdaniel: if you plan to use it as release notes I can help to correct the text
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2015-08-13T06:06:05Z jackdaniel: you mean changelog file? I'll appreciate it a lot, thanks :) yes, I plan to us it that way
2015-08-13T06:06:32Z jackdaniel: s/us/use/
2015-08-13T06:07:12Z vrrm: And of course in your c library that you're developing you can also include Lisp for routines that you're not ready to put down in c yet.
2015-08-13T06:07:57Z antonv: jackdaniel: ah, I understand, you now introduce these version numbering rules, instead of basing versions on dates
2015-08-13T06:08:09Z jackdaniel: antonv: yeah, exactly
2015-08-13T06:09:23Z jackdaniel: vrrm: you can even leave lisp code in your library and deploy it as any other lib[4~
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2015-08-13T06:11:41Z antonv: "we may call it poor-men-c/c++-repl ;-)" - isn't a man ought to work with C++ poor by definition?
2015-08-13T06:11:55Z jackdaniel: heheh
2015-08-13T06:12:54Z jackdaniel: vrrm: basically ECL lets you to cross-compile any lisp library to c and then as library on host system
2015-08-13T06:13:28Z antonv: (just joking, was working with C++ myself sometimes, and would mind to take some project again, just to refresh and try the recent features)
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2015-08-13T06:13:46Z antonv: *would NOT
2015-08-13T06:14:35Z antonv: C++ even has lambda functios now - everyone is stealing from Lisp!
2015-08-13T06:14:39Z jackdaniel: c++ tends to get messy when used by inexperienced architects (mind I haven't used word programmers)
2015-08-13T06:15:45Z antonv: thanks god I'm not one of them :)
2015-08-13T06:15:49Z Zhivago: With most of the features avoided, it is reasonable.
2015-08-13T06:16:03Z jackdaniel: yeah
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2015-08-13T06:16:47Z Lokathor: i saw a presentation about functional programming in the newest C++, the guy spent the first 10 minute talking about the memory model you have to follow along with when you try to do things
2015-08-13T06:16:48Z phadthai: ECL is a nice C preprocessor :)
2015-08-13T06:16:50Z Lokathor: seemed like a nightmare
2015-08-13T06:18:49Z phadthai: Lokathor: it reminds me how using C++ for low level kernel code can be tedious vs C
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2015-08-13T06:20:07Z phadthai: jackdaniel: perhaps we could join #lispcafe or #ecl?  I have a few questions to help with the CHANGELOG, if you have time
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2015-08-13T06:22:39Z jackdaniel: phadthai: sure, lets go at #ecl (I plan to ask freenode staff to give me op rights, but cant produce enough time to read  how to make such request)
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2015-08-13T06:28:10Z theos: jackdaniel you have to prove that you are one of the developers/maintainers of ecl
2015-08-13T06:28:34Z jackdaniel: theos: ? :)
2015-08-13T06:29:09Z theos: if you want freenode staff to give you op
2015-08-13T06:30:09Z jackdaniel: it will be pretty easy to prove it
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2015-08-13T07:01:11Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Fare: I've checked asdf patch for run-program - you misunderstood me - run-program had :error parameter, but stream isn't hold in external-process structure. Valid arguments were (before 15.3.7): NIL, T and :OUTPUT - NIL meant ignoring error output, T - use *standard-error*, :OUTPUT - use same stream as :output
2015-08-13T07:01:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-13T07:01:47Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Fare: s/isn't hold/weren't hold/
2015-08-13T07:01:48Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-13T10:33:24Z Somelauw: I get the need for multidispatch, but why are the before and after methods the way they are. What is there use?
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2015-08-13T10:39:51Z PuercoPop: Somelauw: you could use them for logging, signaling, assertions. The around method for caches for example. They are very useful. Python/Ruby Web abstractions use the similar concept of middle-ware to compose/combine unrelated concerns.
2015-08-13T10:40:58Z Somelauw: It seems to me that logging, signaling and assertions can be done in the around method as well.
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2015-08-13T10:44:32Z PuercoPop: It is possible, but it may clutter the code. Say I'm using the around method for a cache. Why should I care about the logging?
2015-08-13T10:44:48Z PuercoPop: so you can split it into two different methods
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2015-08-13T10:44:57Z jackdaniel: Somelauw: around method is more general, you can use it of course
2015-08-13T10:45:06Z jackdaniel: you can also use closures to make your own clos system
2015-08-13T10:45:18Z jackdaniel: they are more general in that sense, but more clutter to handle this
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2015-08-13T10:47:07Z PuercoPop: Also by splitting different concerns into different methods you may 'toggle' them on/off if you want to. See https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo for an example
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2015-08-13T11:12:33Z Vityok: clhs code-char
2015-08-13T11:12:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm
2015-08-13T11:13:12Z Vityok: says that the code-char returns either a character with the specified code, or nil if the char with such code can not be created
2015-08-13T11:13:45Z Vityok: but SBCL seems to return a character always, regardless of encoding/decoding problems
2015-08-13T11:13:49Z Vityok: is it a bug or a feature?
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2015-08-13T11:25:20Z PuercoPop: Vityok: what do you mean by encoding/decoding problems? could you give a code example? And does your sbcl have :sb-unicode in its features?
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2015-08-13T11:47:47Z Vityok: PuercoPop: unfortunately I've got no such example at hand, but it might happen with the unicode character
2015-08-13T11:48:02Z Vityok: yep, it has
2015-08-13T11:48:18Z Vityok: there is :sb-unicode in the features list
2015-08-13T11:49:12Z Vityok: and the define-vop (code-char) declares to return character always
2015-08-13T11:49:19Z Vityok: in the char.lisp file
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2015-08-13T11:50:43Z Vityok: I don't say that it must always check the character, but is it fine to declare incompatible result type?
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2015-08-13T11:57:36Z PuercoPop: Vityok: if it doesn't signal a type error it never fails to return a character
2015-08-13T11:58:01Z PuercoPop: try this: (member nil (loop for index :from 0 :upto (1- char-code-limit) :collect (code-char index)))
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2015-08-13T12:04:50Z PuercoPop: Although I read that entry as you should return nil instead of signaling an error.
2015-08-13T12:06:07Z Vityok: clhs code-char
2015-08-13T12:06:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm
2015-08-13T12:06:23Z Vityok: says that it must return nil whenever it encounters an invalid character
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2015-08-13T12:07:09Z Vityok: the problem is that other Lisp implementations might actually declare their code-char functions to return (or nil char) - or something like that
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2015-08-13T12:07:50Z Vityok: but in order to avoid compiler warnings on SBCL it is better not to branch on (null (code-char i))
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2015-08-13T12:09:29Z PuercoPop: I agree with your interpretation, clisp does return nil, ccl raises an error and the ansi-cl-tests don't actually tests for it. There may a more general section that applies here?
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2015-08-13T12:10:36Z PuercoPop: (abcl also returns ni)
2015-08-13T12:10:38Z PuercoPop: nil
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2015-08-13T12:13:20Z Vityok: don't know about general sections...
2015-08-13T12:15:31Z rme: PuercoPop: ccl's code-char should return nil for (some) codes that don't correspond to characters (namely for Unicode surrogates).
2015-08-13T12:15:38Z jackdaniel: code-char should return character or nil
2015-08-13T12:16:15Z rme: If ccl is signaling an error, I suspect that's a bug.
2015-08-13T12:17:20Z Vityok: indeed, signaling errors is allowed for other functions, but code-char is required to return nil for invalid characters
2015-08-13T12:17:24Z jackdaniel: sbcl signalls exception if code is aboe 1114112
2015-08-13T12:17:35Z Posterdati: hi
2015-08-13T12:17:37Z jackdaniel: what is probably bug too
2015-08-13T12:17:38Z jackdaniel: hi
2015-08-13T12:17:43Z jackdaniel: s/aboe/above/
2015-08-13T12:18:05Z Posterdati: how can I print the current architecture from repl?
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2015-08-13T12:19:19Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: or below 0
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2015-08-13T12:20:07Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: if you piggy on uiop, you may use uiop:architecture, but it only checks, if *features* contain any of predefined architectures
2015-08-13T12:20:41Z jackdaniel: so it won't actually find one, if you use something exotic
2015-08-13T12:21:06Z jackdaniel: for certain levels of exotics, it has iapx386, but wouldn't find for instance java-1.8
2015-08-13T12:21:15Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is what I want, since clisp on a sparc64 gave me a warning about unknown architecture feature
2015-08-13T12:21:20Z PuercoPop: rme: You are correct that ccl returns nil for some cases between 0 and the char-code-limit, I was testing nonsensical inputs like -1
2015-08-13T12:21:35Z rme: Oh, I see.
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2015-08-13T12:21:57Z jackdaniel: but it shouldn't signal anything (I think)
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2015-08-13T12:28:40Z scymtym: jackdaniel: CODE-CHAR is specified to accept a "character code" which must be below CHAR-CODE-LIMIT. signaling an error for e.g. larger integers seems ok.
2015-08-13T12:29:21Z jackdaniel: scymtym: you're right, mb
2015-08-13T12:29:29Z scymtym: np
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2015-08-13T12:51:26Z Somelauw: Is there a difference between specifiying a method and calling call-next-method or just defining an around and running the primary method from that around? It seems there are two very similar ways to wrap a method.
2015-08-13T12:53:09Z H4ns: Somelauw: call-next-method from an :around method will call the next applicatble :around method first.
2015-08-13T12:53:32Z H4ns: Somelauw: so while the two approaches are similar, they can have different effects when many methods are defined.
2015-08-13T12:54:10Z H4ns: Somelauw: the unqualified method (no :before/:around/:after) is called the "primary" method, you may want to use that terminology when referring to it while discussing.
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2015-08-13T12:57:17Z Somelauw: So is terminology, method 1 would be called defining an around for a primary, and method 2 would be extending a primary by another primary?
2015-08-13T12:58:18Z H4ns: Somelauw: a method is not defined for a method, it is defined for a generic function.  when the function is then called, the applicable methods are determined based on the arguments supplied.
2015-08-13T12:58:22Z Somelauw: so if I understand, they are effectively the same, but have a different priority in the hierarchy
2015-08-13T12:59:19Z H4ns: Somelauw: correct, but there can be multiple applicable primary and around methods.
2015-08-13T13:00:26Z H4ns: Somelauw: so for simple cases, what you observe is true and there is little difference between primary and :around methods (i.e. only the most specific one is automatically called, and call-next-method can be used to call the next less specific one).
2015-08-13T13:01:08Z H4ns: Somelauw: if you have multiple applicable :around methods, though, call-next-method will call the next applicable :around method, not the most specific primary method.
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2015-08-13T13:16:47Z jangle: greetings
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2015-08-13T13:17:20Z jangle: trying to understand how to write a function that modifies a list argument
2015-08-13T13:17:45Z loke`: jangle: you can't. Well, you can as long as you never modify the first element
2015-08-13T13:17:51Z loke`: But even then it's not recommended
2015-08-13T13:20:08Z jangle: so when I know my list is very large, at some point i'm going to benefit more by modifying the list in place as opposed to making a copy and wrapping the function inside a setf, right?
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2015-08-13T13:20:51Z H4ns: jangle: when you know that your list is very large, you may be better off using a different datastructure
2015-08-13T13:21:25Z H4ns: jangle: for example, if you'd use a vector instead, there would be no problem modifying it because the identity of a vector is not determined by its first element.
2015-08-13T13:21:37Z dlowe: jangle: when you want to modify a list, the typical thing to do is to return the new head of the list
2015-08-13T13:22:11Z jangle: hmm ok.
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2015-08-13T13:23:02Z jangle: thanks for the pointers
2015-08-13T13:24:36Z dlowe: very large lists can still be very efficient, depending on your access patterns
2015-08-13T13:25:48Z jangle: can you give me an example?
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2015-08-13T13:27:31Z dlowe: insertion at the head of a list is very efficient, and iterating through the list is also very efficient. In addition, lists can share structure if they have the same tail
2015-08-13T13:27:47Z dlowe: The tradeoffs can be pretty nuanced
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2015-08-13T13:29:34Z dlowe: The big inefficiencies in a list are random access. Deletion can be efficient in limited contexts, but in general use you'll end up searching through the list for the thing you want to delete
2015-08-13T13:30:12Z dlowe: Getting the last element of a list is an O(n) operation unless you store it somewhere yourself, and then you're kind of talking about a different data structure
2015-08-13T13:30:34Z jkaye: I'd say that a good practical example would be a FIFO queue implemented with a list as the underlying structure (provided you maintain a pointer to the last cons)
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2015-08-13T13:31:04Z dlowe: Eh, a LIFO stack is a more natural fit. Push on, pop off
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2015-08-13T13:31:39Z jkaye: Fair
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2015-08-13T13:31:53Z oleo: hello
2015-08-13T13:31:57Z jangle: jkaye:  how do you do that last part?  how do you store that information
2015-08-13T13:32:15Z jangle: jkaye:  or rather, how do you record a reference to any particular cons
2015-08-13T13:32:16Z dlowe: you make another variable for it, and update it when the last cons changes
2015-08-13T13:32:21Z jkaye: jangle: There are myriad ways to do that
2015-08-13T13:32:37Z jkaye: A cons can be set in a variable just like anything else
2015-08-13T13:33:44Z jangle: ok
2015-08-13T13:34:03Z dlowe: generally, you see a structure with head and tail fields
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2015-08-13T13:52:13Z jangle: yea, uhh, I guess I don't see how to store a part of a list in a way that lets me "get back to that point" at a later time
2015-08-13T13:52:49Z jangle: i've found a few ways that don't work that way lol
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2015-08-13T13:54:12Z jkaye: Do you know about places?
2015-08-13T13:55:07Z H4ns: jangle: you're looking for REST, really
2015-08-13T13:55:18Z H4ns: jangle: (or CDR, in historic parlance)
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2015-08-13T13:56:57Z jangle: er brb sorry
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2015-08-13T13:58:08Z jkaye: H4ns: Do you find yourself using first/rest in place of car/cdr now? Is that what many people are doing?
2015-08-13T13:58:38Z H4ns: jkaye: i use first/rest for lists, car/cdr for trees or other non-list cons uses.
2015-08-13T13:58:40Z loke`: jkaye: I rarely see it in code. car/cdr is what people tend to use.
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2015-08-13T13:59:19Z jkaye: Okay, was just wondering. I've always used car/cdr
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2015-08-13T14:00:58Z H4ns: jkaye: but that is really minor.  point in case is that you need to hold on to the CDR before checking that cons cell's CAR.  if the CAR contains the item you want to remember, you need to store away the CDR that you've previously remembered, as that is the "pointer" to that item.
2015-08-13T14:03:13Z jkaye: H4ns: Sure. I think that jangle may not be familiar with places however
2015-08-13T14:03:21Z jkaye: Which would make all of that difficult to understand
2015-08-13T14:03:33Z H4ns: jkaye: oops, i meant to address jangle, really.  sorry
2015-08-13T14:04:20Z jkaye: No worries :)
2015-08-13T14:04:38Z H4ns: jkaye: i think that for this discussion, the general concept of a place does not need to be understood.  it is sufficient that one can use setf to set both the car and the cdr of a cons cell.
2015-08-13T14:05:31Z flip214: I guess that people that have programmed assembler or used similar low-level concepts can grasp places easily...
2015-08-13T14:05:33Z jkaye: H4ns: Perhaps. I think it depends on his background. If you are coming from something like C#/Java/Python, variables don't work that way at all
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2015-08-13T14:05:43Z jkaye: At least, I've seen people get confused in that way before
2015-08-13T14:06:21Z flip214: or perhaps C and pointers are low-level enough for that?
2015-08-13T14:07:10Z jkaye: It is more similar to a pointer than an object reference, IMO
2015-08-13T14:07:23Z loke`: Not really...
2015-08-13T14:07:44Z H4ns: loke`: it sure is.
2015-08-13T14:07:54Z loke`: A place is basically "an instruction how to find/modify a value"
2015-08-13T14:07:59Z jkaye: loke`: Given some signature like def some_func(self, x)
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2015-08-13T14:08:05Z loke`: a place doesn't have to be a pointer at all
2015-08-13T14:08:06Z jkaye: What happens if I say x = 123
2015-08-13T14:08:21Z jkaye: Or rather, x = SomeObject(123)
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2015-08-13T15:06:23Z pjb: minion: memo for Somelauw: have a look at https://pupeno.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/common-lisp-method-composition.png
2015-08-13T15:06:23Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Somelauw when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-13T15:07:15Z pjb: What's nice with large lists, is that you can indeed keep references to cons cells in the middle or tail of it, if you need to.
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2015-08-13T15:10:59Z jackdaniel: to fed some macro with evaluated argument (macro doesn't evaluate it) I need to wrap it in another macro, there isn't any handy trick to achieve it?
2015-08-13T15:13:04Z dlowe: jackdaniel: you could use EVAL in your macro?
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2015-08-13T15:13:45Z jackdaniel: dlowe: I can't modify this macro (it's part of the api)
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2015-08-13T15:14:17Z dlowe: oh. yuck.
2015-08-13T15:14:32Z jackdaniel: I want to call macro (a bah ,(whatever)) basically
2015-08-13T15:14:54Z jackdaniel: only thing i can think of is to create macro b, which is `(a bah ,(whatever))
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2015-08-13T15:15:18Z luis`: pjb: is there a larger version of that image? (perhaps a vectorial version?)
2015-08-13T15:15:31Z jackdaniel: but tought that maybe there is some handy trick to do it without creating b
2015-08-13T15:15:58Z pjb: luis`: I suppose pupeno has one.
2015-08-13T15:16:14Z dlowe: well, b could be defined with a macrolet. I don't have a clever trick, though.
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2015-08-13T15:16:33Z pjb: You can use #.
2015-08-13T15:16:38Z jackdaniel: yes, I'm actually doing it with macrolet - tried with symbol-macrolet, but apparently I can't do that
2015-08-13T15:16:46Z pjb: (a bah #.(whatever))   if whatever is defined at read time.
2015-08-13T15:17:04Z jackdaniel: so I should also define whatever with #. - well, that is some solution
2015-08-13T15:17:31Z pjb: It's very rare to have to do that. You're probably doing something wrong.
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2015-08-13T15:18:35Z jackdaniel: maybe (: anyway, I'll just leave it wrapped in macrolet
2015-08-13T15:18:59Z jackdaniel: luis: is there any chance for cffi release in upcoming 2 weeks?
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2015-08-13T15:19:51Z dlowe: I think it's more likely that the macro itself is broken
2015-08-13T15:20:37Z jackdaniel: dlowe: hm, its deftest from rt - it just takes form, and rest is considered as expected value(s)
2015-08-13T15:21:07Z dlowe: and it doesn't evaluate the value forms?
2015-08-13T15:21:10Z jackdaniel: it's nice, just want to automate a bit, so I have nice table with input and expected results
2015-08-13T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: dlowe: no, take (deftest (values 1 2 3) 1 2 3) <- this test will succeed
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2015-08-13T15:23:06Z jackdaniel: and just got curious, if there is some nifty trick to do *the wrong thing(tm)* with macros :)
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2015-08-13T15:24:17Z dlowe: You could also just use stefil :p
2015-08-13T15:24:24Z jackdaniel: stefil?
2015-08-13T15:24:48Z dlowe: "This project is obsolete"
2015-08-13T15:24:54Z dlowe shakes his fist.
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2015-08-13T15:25:05Z dlowe: It's called fiasco now, apparently
2015-08-13T15:25:17Z attila_lendvai: http://hub.darcs.net/hu.dwim/hu.dwim.stefil or a fork: https://github.com/capitaomorte/fiasco
2015-08-13T15:25:23Z jackdaniel: there is hu.dwim.stefil, but I'm suspicious about hu libraries (often they are not portable)
2015-08-13T15:25:39Z dlowe: they're portable. You just have to drag in a lot of support libraries :)
2015-08-13T15:25:53Z attila_lendvai: stefil has no dependencies, it's not tied to the rest of the hu.dwim universe
2015-08-13T15:25:57Z jackdaniel: I've tried to use syntactic-sugar on ecl once
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2015-08-13T15:26:09Z dlowe: attila_lendvai: not even hu.dwim.asdf?
2015-08-13T15:26:11Z Xach: hu.dwimiverse
2015-08-13T15:26:13Z attila_lendvai: but fiasco has an active maintainer, while we are not actively working on lisp projects these days
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2015-08-13T15:26:38Z jackdaniel: uhm
2015-08-13T15:26:44Z attila_lendvai: ok, not many... :)
2015-08-13T15:26:45Z dlowe: attila_lendvai: I'm very grateful for all the work your team has done
2015-08-13T15:27:35Z rme: "fiasco?"  Not as bad as "catarse", which is a non-lisp project I ran across recently, but still...
2015-08-13T15:27:37Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: well, thanks for that! it often feels like wasted efforts... that codebase has much more potential than what we have used it for.
2015-08-13T15:27:51Z luis: Stefil (or Fiasco) is my favorite testing library. :-)
2015-08-13T15:28:06Z jackdaniel: I'll definetely check it out :)
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2015-08-13T15:28:13Z jackdaniel: luis: ↑↑
2015-08-13T15:28:24Z rme: Maybe fiasco is meant to prevent fiascos.
2015-08-13T15:28:49Z jangle: back.  yes my background is c, and I understand pointers and the difference between stack allocated objects vs heap, but in lisp i'm still trying to figure out how to replicate "save this location in a list"  and "refer to that stored location" wherein I might be able to modify the source list in between each call and expect to see the updated state upon later "dereferencing" the stored location.  I'll admit that I don't know the terms in lisp,
2015-08-13T15:29:02Z luis: jackdaniel: sure, how about Sep 1st? Too late?
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2015-08-13T15:29:09Z attila_lendvai: for me the stefil model is just so natural in a slime devenv... there's a lot of accidental complexity blooming among the lisp test libs.
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2015-08-13T15:29:29Z jackdaniel: luis: I'd love to have it earlier, to make ECL look good on cl-test-grid (and uffi actually is biggest blocker out there)
2015-08-13T15:29:50Z jackdaniel: but I want to make release-candidate and perform tests in two weeks tops
2015-08-13T15:29:56Z luis: oh, okey. I can do a bugfix release tonight then.
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2015-08-13T15:30:14Z jackdaniel: luis: thanks!
2015-08-13T15:30:44Z dlowe: jangle: lists in lisp are just ordinary singly-linked lists. The syntax is a little weird, but that's all they are.
2015-08-13T15:31:25Z dlowe: jangle: in a cons cell, you can think of CAR as being the "data" field and the CDR as being the "next" field
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2015-08-13T15:31:39Z jackdaniel: heterogenous lists, not that common in C-based background (unless you put a lot of voids and cast them explicitly)
2015-08-13T15:33:17Z attila_lendvai compiiles ECL head and looks at syntax sugar
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2015-08-13T15:35:55Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: you made me curious... what of our work was valuable for you? I can't really think of anything.
2015-08-13T15:36:08Z dlowe: attila_lendvai: you helped me a ton with local-time :)
2015-08-13T15:36:28Z dlowe: and stefil has been my go-to testing library for years
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2015-08-13T15:36:29Z attila_lendvai: maybe besides stefil... oh, and maybe the countless patches in the libs we used... :)
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2015-08-13T15:37:39Z jangle: dlowe: but when I make a list, and then say, bind a new symbol to be the cdr of the first list, i seem to end up with two different lists.  when I push to the new list for instance, the values I push don't show up on the old list
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2015-08-13T15:37:45Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: it's basically function literal, so it's walker rather (sorry) - wanted to test #L(list 1 2 3) once
2015-08-13T15:38:04Z dlowe: jangle: pushing is just (setf list (cons new-element list))
2015-08-13T15:38:17Z loke`: dlowe: or just PUSH
2015-08-13T15:38:23Z dlowe: I'm explaining the operation :p
2015-08-13T15:38:23Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: because the value I was talking about that is lying dormant is stuff like our business process modeling code. basically delimited continuations that get committed into the database when some interaction is needed by a used or some other external event... simple lisp code with a few more primitives and a few constraints.
2015-08-13T15:39:05Z dlowe: jangle: so if you have two variables, only the one you push to is going to have a new "head of list"
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2015-08-13T15:39:29Z dlowe: jangle: the old one is still going to be pointing to the next cons
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2015-08-13T15:40:41Z dlowe: attila_lendvai: the reality is that you have to advertise even in the open source world or people aren't going to know to look
2015-08-13T15:40:48Z attila_lendvai: is it possible to run a built ECL without installing?
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2015-08-13T15:41:40Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: it is, but you have to explicitly show where libecl is with LD_LIBRARY_…, and it won't work with any contrib libs (like asdf etc), so it's better to build it with --prefix=~/local/ecl/
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2015-08-13T15:41:54Z jackdaniel: and install there
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2015-08-13T15:42:38Z attila_lendvai: dlowe: I know, but these features were borderline black magic (thinking of hu.dwim.model and hu.dwim.meta-model, undocumented), and often they were only depth work, still waiting for the breadth work to be done. and without a project driving the features we stopped working on them... :/
2015-08-13T15:42:49Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: ok, thanks!
2015-08-13T15:43:38Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: np, it might be also some problem with ECL, didn't investigate it — sorry to bother you then, just made my general impression (maybe unjustifully)
2015-08-13T15:44:16Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: there's a compatibility layer for accessing the lexical context, and I'm not sure it even has ECL hooks
2015-08-13T15:44:45Z attila_lendvai: (it has something)
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2015-08-13T15:45:08Z jangle: dlowe:  so now I understand how I was in reality generating a new list, but what about the following call? (setf *inside* (cons (car *inside*) (cons 'j (cdr *inside*))))  where inside is the result of calling (defparameter *inside* (cdr *testlist*))
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2015-08-13T15:45:57Z attila_lendvai: jangle: that code looks like something only university teachers would give at tests... :)
2015-08-13T15:46:02Z dlowe: yeah, it does :D
2015-08-13T15:46:02Z jangle: heh
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2015-08-13T15:46:59Z dlowe: in linked list terms, it makes two new boxes. The first box has the first element of the first old box and points to the second box. The second box has a J symbol, and points to the second old box
2015-08-13T15:47:36Z dlowe: draw it on paper with boxes and arrows if you can't visualize it
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2015-08-13T15:52:26Z jangle: well embarrassingly enough i've been lightly working in lisp for a few years, but I still haven't figured out how to keep and use pointers to places in existing lists.  I don't need to do this often, but i'm working on some practice problem sets where
2015-08-13T15:52:28Z jangle: no i get it
2015-08-13T15:53:38Z jackdaniel: dlowe: basically I made there (defmacro deftest* (name form result) `(deftest ,name ,form ,(eval result)))
2015-08-13T15:53:40Z jangle: i can grasp the concept of what cons cells are and how they are put together.  its just that every time I think that im operating on one in order to modify an existing list, I end up making a new list instead
2015-08-13T15:53:42Z attila_lendvai: lists (and cons cells) are overrated/overused in lisp. they are useful exactly when this kind of implementation of a singly linked list is useful.
2015-08-13T15:54:17Z attila_lendvai: ...and that doesn't include representing code, because a tree of symbols cannot be annotated without disturbing the meaning of the data already there.
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2015-08-13T15:55:14Z oGMo: attila_lendvai: given you can use the cons cell as an index for any annotations you want, i'm pretty that's not right ;p
2015-08-13T15:55:50Z oGMo: that's even assuming the assumption of "disturbing the data" is in any way meaningful or accurate
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2015-08-13T15:56:44Z pjb: jangle: have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
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2015-08-13T15:57:02Z attila_lendvai: oGMo: I have this: `(+ 2 2). now, try to annotate anything on this and then give it to CL:EVAL.
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2015-08-13T15:57:37Z oGMo: attila_lendvai: your request is beyond wrong
2015-08-13T15:58:12Z attila_lendvai: oGMo: that statement only qualifies you... but whatever.
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2015-08-13T16:02:22Z jackdaniel: pjb: I know we came through this, but if readtable-case is :invert, then reading 'zebr\A should result in |ZEBRA|, right?
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2015-08-13T16:04:27Z pjb: IIRC, yes.
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2015-08-13T16:05:17Z jackdaniel: thanks, I had an error in notes, and it resulted in test failure
2015-08-13T16:05:22Z jackdaniel: (reader works ok \o/ )
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2015-08-13T16:07:27Z pjb: jangle: with: (defparameter *inside* (cdr *testlist*)) (setf *inside* (cons (car *inside*) (cons 'j (cdr *inside*)))) binds *inside* to a list containing the second element of *testlist*, J, and tail'ed with the cddr of *test-list*.   (*inside* and *testlist* share the same cddr)
2015-08-13T16:07:33Z pjb: jangle: you can see it with (list *inside* *testlist*)
2015-08-13T16:07:46Z pjb: jangle: you can see it with (setf *print-circle* t)  (list *inside* *testlist*)
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2015-08-13T16:10:04Z pjb: jangle: notice you can write: (push 'j (cdr *inside*)) instead of (setf *inside* (cons (car *inside*) (cons 'j (cdr *inside*))))
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2015-08-13T16:10:46Z pjb: but if you did that, you'd modify the chain bound to *testlist*.
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2015-08-13T16:11:51Z pjb: jangle: (setf *inside* (cons (car *inside*) (cons 'j (cdr *inside*)))) is also equivalent to (setf *inside* (list* (car *inside*) 'j (cdr *inside*)))
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2015-08-13T16:14:35Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: I got stuck at this "Unknown initialization option :OPTIMIZE-SLOT-ACCESS for class #<The STANDARD-CLASS CLOSER-MOP:FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS>". does it ring any bells?
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2015-08-13T16:15:39Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: no, but I haven't touched mop yet - could you paste full output somewhere? I'll add it as an issue and eventually send patch to Pascal Costanza
2015-08-13T16:15:50Z jackdaniel: when fix in ECL that is
2015-08-13T16:17:22Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: hrm, not sure I can extract anything. is it expected that in slime the backtrace is full of gensyms?
2015-08-13T16:17:51Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: yes
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2015-08-13T16:18:51Z jackdaniel: but traversing with M-n find related code if accessible
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2015-08-13T16:36:16Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: ok, added it with label "ansi-beyond" - thanks for investigating thing
2015-08-13T16:36:36Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/111
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2015-08-13T17:01:45Z jangle: pjb: thanks for the links and the clarification, i'm reading and exploring now
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2015-08-13T18:01:13Z deval: which library do you recommend for gui programming? i have been learning LISP for some time now and i want to create a simple gui app...
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2015-08-13T18:03:31Z jackdaniel: deval: you have limited number of choices - cl-gtk2, gtk-cffi, commonqt, ltk (that's for desktop, you can also deploy to web)
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2015-08-13T18:34:56Z Xach: capi is in active use and has a supportive company and user community.
2015-08-13T18:35:03Z Xach: it is not free or gratis
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2015-08-13T18:38:03Z jangle: deval: look into ceramic
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2015-08-13T18:38:32Z jangle: deval:  its a cl binidng to electrom, the gui toolkit behind the github atom editor
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2015-08-13T18:50:20Z edgar-rft: "ceramic" is a great name. In Germany it's a slang-word for "toilet bowl". I'm childishly amused to imagine how someone "looks into ceramic"...
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2015-08-13T18:55:02Z Xach: Avoiding bad international slang is difficult
2015-08-13T18:55:25Z Xach names his next project "skitbra"
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2015-08-13T19:03:00Z edgar-rft: I remember a story told by "Dj Bobo" (swiss musician) who discovered during a live stage performance in Portugal that in portugese "bobo" means "complete idiot" - sorry, completely off-topic, but funny. :-)
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2015-08-13T19:04:52Z brpocock: Here we have the ever-infamous Chevrolet Nova, which fails in all of Spanish, Portuguese, and Dayiti; Ironically, there are an awful lot of them still around for a car they stopped making about 15 years ago.
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2015-08-13T19:11:40Z jangle: i'm dumb today.  I have a list of arguments and I want to use them as arguments to a function
2015-08-13T19:12:33Z jangle: obviously passing in the list counts as one arg, I want the args to be taken from the list and used as args to the function call. (funcall #'func (list args)) doesn't seem to do it.
2015-08-13T19:12:42Z Bike: jangle: apply
2015-08-13T19:12:44Z edgar-rft: (apply <function> <list-of-arguments>)
2015-08-13T19:14:06Z jangle: i get a compiler warning about my arg list being the incorrect number, is this because the arg list is not evaluated when calling apply?
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2015-08-13T19:15:14Z edgar-rft: probably your function expects a different number of arguments than there are elements in the list
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2015-08-13T19:16:24Z jangle: well if the apply call would evaluate the arg list at runtime then the list will have the proper number of arguments
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2015-08-13T19:17:05Z jangle: or at least its either just a warning, or doesn't work that way
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2015-08-13T19:17:23Z jkaye: It is a function.. Its arguments are evaluated at run time
2015-08-13T19:17:37Z jkaye: Can you show what you're trying to do?
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2015-08-13T19:17:58Z edgar-rft: can you paste the code fragment on <paste.lisp.org>, it's hard to tell from your description
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2015-08-13T19:18:49Z jangle: sure
2015-08-13T19:19:55Z jangle: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153635
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2015-08-13T19:20:45Z dlowe: It looks like sbcl is being very clever there
2015-08-13T19:20:55Z jkaye: #'one takes three arguments, you're giving it two
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2015-08-13T19:21:19Z dlowe: you have an extra set of parens in the 3 clause
2015-08-13T19:21:31Z jangle: at the time that the loop runs, (cdr query) will have enough args in it
2015-08-13T19:21:45Z dlowe: but if you have (apply function (list x1 x2 x3 ...)) it can tell how many elements are going to be in that list
2015-08-13T19:22:10Z jangle: but query, made in loop, will have a different number of arguments in it
2015-08-13T19:22:24Z dlowe: jangle: it's not going to flatten the list for you
2015-08-13T19:22:28Z jkaye: You will end up with '((a b) input), which is two arguments
2015-08-13T19:22:35Z jkaye: (a b) and input
2015-08-13T19:23:00Z jangle: oh
2015-08-13T19:23:15Z jangle: i see
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2015-08-13T19:27:56Z jangle: thanks guys
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2015-08-13T20:10:38Z Cthulhux`: so... what is the recommended way to use ceramic? obviously, not clozure cl. https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/issues/18
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2015-08-13T20:15:40Z fe[nl]ix: Cthulhux`: who uses windows anyway ?
2015-08-13T20:15:51Z Cthulhux` does 
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2015-08-13T20:17:03Z Xach: Cthulhux`: I don't think anyone here has tried ceramic
2015-08-13T20:17:09Z Cthulhux`: :(
2015-08-13T20:17:40Z jlarocco_work: I did a quick search a few minutes ago, and couldn't find any info about ceramic
2015-08-13T20:18:38Z jlarocco_work: well, one page in russian was the top result in duckduckgo
2015-08-13T20:18:49Z jlarocco_work: even the github project was buried down the page
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2015-08-13T20:18:59Z Xach: It is pretty new.
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2015-08-13T20:19:42Z Cthulhux`: http://ceramic.github.io
2015-08-13T20:20:00Z Cthulhux`: actually, that project convinced me to not write my next project in python : |
2015-08-13T20:20:05Z Cthulhux`: if it just worked.
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2015-08-13T20:22:23Z Xach: I'm sure it will take time to get to the "just works" state
2015-08-13T20:23:04Z Cthulhux`: meh.
2015-08-13T20:23:08Z fe[nl]ix: Cthulhux`: if you want "just works" you can pay for a Lispworks licence, they're pretty cheap
2015-08-13T20:23:20Z Cthulhux`: fe[nl]ix: not for a hobbyist ... :-)
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2015-08-13T20:23:30Z oGMo: the gtk3 stuff "just works" last i tried it
2015-08-13T20:23:37Z Cthulhux`: also, lispworks is restricted to a very few platforms :/
2015-08-13T20:24:05Z fe[nl]ix: you rarely get "just works" in the opensource world, even less so with Windows and on top of it, a version that came out last week
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2015-08-13T20:24:10Z Cthulhux`: oGMo: i strongly dislike GTK. i could go with qt5, but that'll take another while ... :-)
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2015-08-13T20:25:02Z p_l: I've been thinking of making a "lispy" toolkit on top of Shinmera's qt tools (themselves on top of CommonQT)
2015-08-13T20:25:05Z Cthulhux`: fe[nl]ix: i know a lot of "not works" in the linux world. that's why i don't use linux. but that's not my actual problem. afaics ceramic does not work with other OSs either
2015-08-13T20:25:13Z p_l: but no time to play :|
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2015-08-13T20:25:31Z Cthulhux`: p_l: also, commonqt does not speak qt5 yet.
2015-08-13T20:26:15Z oGMo: you'd prefer qt over gtk? ;P
2015-08-13T20:26:20Z p_l: Cthulhux`: my distro has yet to announce qt5 as stable
2015-08-13T20:26:22Z Cthulhux`: yes i do.
2015-08-13T20:26:30Z oGMo: lost cause
2015-08-13T20:26:37Z p_l: oGMo: gtk3 can't maintain stable api and been taken over by crazies
2015-08-13T20:26:43Z Cthulhux`: p_l: your distro sucks :o)
2015-08-13T20:26:51Z oGMo: p_l: reference?
2015-08-13T20:26:52Z antoszka: oGMo: which gtk3 library did you use that “just worked”? :)
2015-08-13T20:27:12Z oGMo: antoszka: cl-cffi-gtk or something like thta
2015-08-13T20:27:20Z antoszka: hm, thax.
2015-08-13T20:27:23Z antoszka: thx*
2015-08-13T20:27:32Z Cthulhux`: cl-cffi-gtk does not work with clozure on windows. i tried.
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2015-08-13T20:27:58Z resttime: speaking of commonqt, i got that working on Windows with slime
2015-08-13T20:28:00Z Cthulhux`: it just freezes
2015-08-13T20:28:06Z Cthulhux`: known issue, not fixed.
2015-08-13T20:28:21Z resttime: don't know who to tell though, so i just opened an issue on github, doesn't seem active though
2015-08-13T20:28:35Z p_l: Cthulhux`: well, I *could* install QT5, but it's been too much hassle when nothing really needs it :P
2015-08-13T20:30:01Z Cthulhux`: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/issues/23 < ah, here
2015-08-13T20:30:09Z Cthulhux`: --> cl-cffi-gtk is _not_ a choice now.
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2015-08-13T20:30:43Z Cthulhux`: unlike you don't give a thing about platform independency.
2015-08-13T20:30:46Z Cthulhux`: unless.
2015-08-13T20:32:08Z resttime: does anyone know who maintains commonqt?
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2015-08-13T20:32:30Z resttime: i want to inform them about it and update documentation on https://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#known-issues
2015-08-13T20:32:37Z Xach: Cthulhux`: out of curiosity, what are you making?
2015-08-13T20:32:49Z Xach: resttime: I believe it is stassats
2015-08-13T20:33:26Z Cthulhux`: Xach: because i don't want to spend 15 us-dollars, i plan to build a modern, free, platform-independent replacement for opalcalc (skytopia.com or something)
2015-08-13T20:33:43Z Cthulhux`: lisp sounds like a great solution for that, i just need a gui..
2015-08-13T20:34:17Z Xach: Cthulhux`: it seems possible that you can get a very long way in the project before settling on a GUI solution.
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2015-08-13T20:34:35Z Cthulhux`: i know. the maths part is entirely GUI-less
2015-08-13T20:34:40Z Cthulhux`: input and output are not though
2015-08-13T20:34:41Z Cthulhux`: :-)
2015-08-13T20:35:12Z Cthulhux`: i just need a plan (tm).
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2015-08-13T20:37:12Z resttime: Xach, thanks I'll try to contact him somehow
2015-08-13T20:37:31Z resttime: I remember that stassats helped me fix a bug to let cffi-libffi work on windows
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2015-08-13T20:46:57Z Xach: he is a very helpful fellow
2015-08-13T20:47:17Z jangle: ceramic works on osx
2015-08-13T20:48:03Z jangle: none of the gtk bindings "just work" for me on osx or windows, obviously ymmv
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2015-08-13T21:21:51Z goglosh: what do you guys think? it's better to give new names to functions [like, for example (setf (symbol-function 'find-all-if) #'remove-if-not)] to aid expressiveness at the expense of maybe burdening the reader?
2015-08-13T21:22:10Z fe[nl]ix: goglosh: no
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2015-08-13T21:31:17Z White_Flame: goglosh: symbol macros would be a more idiomatic approach to giving new names to functions anyway
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2015-08-13T21:52:43Z goglosh: I'll have that in mind
2015-08-13T21:52:44Z goglosh: thanks
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2015-08-13T22:16:09Z ToeTag: When I type "foo\\o" at the REPL, I get back "foo\\o"...does this mean that the string has not been evaluated?
2015-08-13T22:16:50Z ToeTag: If I print it (format t "foo\\o") I get foo\o printed which is what I expected
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2015-08-13T22:17:33Z brpocock: Your REPL's printing it readably for you. Compare format "~s" ←→ "~a"
2015-08-13T22:19:44Z ToeTag: I'm not sure how to type the form to do what you suggest (format ~s "string") isn't working
2015-08-13T22:19:58Z ToeTag: (really new to lisp)
2015-08-13T22:20:45Z brpocock: (format t "~&readably: ~s aesthetically: ~a" "foo\\bar" "foo\\bar") ; for example
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2015-08-13T22:21:14Z brpocock: The ~ bits go within the format string, rather like % in, say, C/Perl/&c.
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2015-08-13T22:22:09Z ToeTag: oh okay great
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2015-08-13T22:23:06Z ToeTag: Thank you
2015-08-13T22:23:10Z brpocock: Your REPL is just showing you it in a form that's unambiguous, basically. (EG: "foo\"bar" would be ambigous if it showed as "foo"bar")
2015-08-13T22:23:19Z brpocock: np … good luck
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2015-08-13T22:59:14Z Cthulhux`: ok
2015-08-13T22:59:20Z Cthulhux`: another win32 question ... :-)
2015-08-13T22:59:40Z Cthulhux`: i have created a test.exe which prints "hello world"
2015-08-13T22:59:48Z Cthulhux`: copy test.exe test2.exe
2015-08-13T22:59:52Z Cthulhux`: upx test2.exe
2015-08-13T22:59:56Z Cthulhux`: test2.exe: no output
2015-08-13T22:59:58Z Cthulhux`: any clues?
2015-08-13T22:59:59Z Cthulhux`: :o
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2015-08-13T23:23:55Z jasom: Cthulhux`: which lisp?
2015-08-13T23:24:14Z jasom: I know upx doesn't work with clisp, and it probably won't work with sbcl either
2015-08-13T23:24:38Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:40Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:40Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:41Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:41Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:42Z cxmu: penis
2015-08-13T23:24:46Z cxmu: oops
2015-08-13T23:25:30Z clique: a ti a ti ... xd
2015-08-13T23:26:54Z Cthulhux`: Jammyhammy|Work
2015-08-13T23:26:56Z Cthulhux`: ah
2015-08-13T23:26:58Z Cthulhux`: jasom
2015-08-13T23:26:58Z Cthulhux`: so
2015-08-13T23:27:02Z Cthulhux`: ccl :-)
2015-08-13T23:27:29Z Cthulhux`: is there any lisp that works with upx? :p .. i filed a bug just in case
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2015-08-13T23:31:26Z jasom: Cthulhux`: probably not.  They typically embed a data image in the executable
2015-08-13T23:31:36Z jasom: Cthulhux`: sbcl has an option to zlib compress its image
2015-08-13T23:31:59Z jasom: there's a pending patch to switch to lz4hc which reminds me to ping the list again about it
2015-08-13T23:32:06Z Cthulhux`: (ot: why don't the free compilers have tree-shakers?)
2015-08-13T23:32:29Z Cthulhux`: why does UPX corrupt the data image then?
2015-08-13T23:33:23Z phf: Cthulhux`: i think the general philosophy is "who neeeeeds em" combined with fact that it takes work to implement one. fwiw cmucl has one, but i don't think there's a windows build
2015-08-13T23:33:38Z phf: *windows port rather
2015-08-13T23:34:04Z Cthulhux`: SBCL has known working (?) patches for that, just wondering..
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2015-08-13T23:34:35Z Cthulhux`: CMUCL is unix/linux only :/
2015-08-13T23:34:36Z jasom: Cthulhux`: upx compresses the image which means when sbcl/ccl/clisp read it directly from the executable they get the compressed version
2015-08-13T23:35:11Z jasom: https://gist.github.com/burtonsamograd/f08f561264ff94391300  <-- that mostly works, but saves less than compressing the image
2015-08-13T23:35:39Z p_l: Cthulhux`: SBCL *had* known proof-of-concept tree shaker
2015-08-13T23:35:48Z Cthulhux`: in my short test upx compresed around 100 KiB. i guess upx could just have more exceptions for that without losing too much saving...
2015-08-13T23:35:52Z Cthulhux`: p_l, why "had"?
2015-08-13T23:36:09Z p_l: Cthulhux`: changes in SBCL since then
2015-08-13T23:36:20Z Cthulhux`: hm.
2015-08-13T23:36:28Z Cthulhux`: but obviously it *would* work
2015-08-13T23:36:43Z p_l: essentially it was not so much a patch as a dirty hack that called internals of SBCL to do its work
2015-08-13T23:36:49Z Cthulhux`: ecl does something similar IIRC (although only stripping debug objects)
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2015-08-13T23:43:49Z phf: Cthulhux`: i think nobody really tries to distributed small consumer lisp apps (granted there's a bit of chicken and egg issue there), and large projects invariably invest in their needs, i.e. pay clozure cl or buy lispworks/acl
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2015-08-13T23:44:39Z Cthulhux`: pay clozure? thought it's open?
2015-08-13T23:44:51Z Quadrescence: for consulting
2015-08-13T23:44:59Z Cthulhux`: the executable size alone would be a reason for me to buy lispworks if i had the money :/
2015-08-13T23:45:19Z Quadrescence: executable size for what kinds of applications?
2015-08-13T23:45:30Z Cthulhux`: basically, desktop applications
2015-08-13T23:45:33Z phf: Cthulhux`: sorry, that was a typo, i meant clozure associates, which is a lisp consultancy that supports clozure cl
2015-08-13T23:45:38Z Quadrescence: most iphone apps are like 50 MB nowadays, and that's with tons of built-in frameworks and libraries
2015-08-13T23:45:54Z Quadrescence: Clozure CL produces apps that aren't big at all, maybe some 10s of MB
2015-08-13T23:46:01Z Quadrescence: I don't see that as a problem whatsoever these days.
2015-08-13T23:46:03Z Cthulhux`: phf: ah, something new :-)
2015-08-13T23:46:31Z Cthulhux`: Quadrescence: for mobile development i'd use mocl, but i'm still trying to learn the android sdk which is probably better than starting with wrapping it...
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2015-08-13T23:46:50Z Quadrescence: I was just stating relative executable sizes.
2015-08-13T23:46:56Z Quadrescence: Games are multiple GB. ;)
2015-08-13T23:47:21Z Cthulhux`: after some time as a full-time web developer i considered writing more "real applications" which is something lisp looks great for, given that it has multi-platform by default
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2015-08-13T23:47:35Z Cthulhux`: "nobody really tries"... bah :)
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2015-08-13T23:59:03Z phf: one slick lisp consumer application that i know is http://opusmodus.com, it's written in ccl, and has a dx86cl64.image weighing at 79.5mb inside
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2015-08-14T00:01:01Z Cthulhux`: afaik maxima is also still a lisp software
2015-08-14T00:01:11Z phf: apples and oranges
2015-08-14T00:01:58Z Cthulhux`: how?
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2015-08-14T00:03:32Z phf: Cthulhux`: sorry, i'm wrong. i though that maxima is distributed as source code only, but i see that there's a handful of prepacked executables
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2015-08-14T00:06:34Z Cthulhux`: indeed. and last time i checked, at least the maths part was still lisp. not sure about the executables though
2015-08-14T00:06:47Z Cthulhux`: haven't used it since my second university year.. :)
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2015-08-14T00:22:26Z Cthulhux`: g'night
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2015-08-14T03:11:12Z loke: Cthulhux`: I'm developing a web application in Lisp. Works fine.
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2015-08-14T03:38:14Z pheeps: jolly vespers
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2015-08-14T03:49:13Z pheeps: Relying on Unicode is fine for my DSL: it would eliminate the need for an "escape character (\)" kludge needed when the small crop of ASCII characters have to be made to do double, triple, duty.  Thus, the character used for quoting a text string would no longer need to be " " ", or " ' "—any Unicode character above 0xFF is available.
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2015-08-14T03:50:36Z Xach: pheeps: it seems like there may be some missing context
2015-08-14T03:51:14Z pheeps: Other than "unfamiliarity" with characters that would replace the traditional " \ ! & > ' ? * " chars., is there any other objection to using Unicode in a DSL for "reserved symbols"?
2015-08-14T03:51:50Z Xach: pheeps: degree of difficulty of input, perhaps?
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2015-08-14T04:02:10Z pheeps: Ï þhĩnk þhåt ŵìþh prôpér ¡ñßtrüctîònß, users can be shown the easy ways of entering higher order Unicode chars.
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2015-08-14T04:04:16Z pheeps: did your IRC client see the higher Unicode chars I entered?
2015-08-14T04:05:04Z pheeps: i was just demonstrating how easily I can enter them.
2015-08-14T04:05:14Z Xach: pheeps: No, but I use a particularly antiquated terminal and font.
2015-08-14T04:05:36Z pheeps: Xach: ah, sorry.
2015-08-14T04:06:54Z phf: pheeps: i think i've seen libraries use “” or «» for extended strings, i.e. string with interpolation support etc.
2015-08-14T04:07:23Z pheeps: i do realize many people have difficulty getting their Unicode to work right.  Often it's the font they're using that fails to produce the Unicode ... but they don't know it.
2015-08-14T04:07:53Z pheeps: phf: those could be good alternatives.
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2015-08-14T04:20:54Z pheeps: Has happened often with celebrities with foreign names, especially the nordic ones: at first nobody knows how to pronounce them—then people get used to them and become household names . . . like "Schwarzenegger".
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2015-08-14T04:25:27Z loke: If you enable compose then you get a useful set of characters that are easy to entire, and you can easily add your own.
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2015-08-14T04:28:06Z loke: You get arrows: ←, →, and fractions: ⅙ ¼ ⅛. And sharp ♯, and spanish ¡ and ¿. And some «other» “quotes”
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2015-08-14T04:29:05Z loke: It's 31°C now,
2015-08-14T04:29:40Z loke: 2⁶⁴
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2015-08-14T04:31:27Z loke: phf: I think Perl6 has some special strings that are quoted using « and »
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2015-08-14T04:33:23Z edgar-rft: pheeps: Arnold Schwarzenegger is from Austria. That's not very nordic.
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2015-08-14T04:39:14Z clique: Also Goddard is of Norman origin but not very nordic.
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2015-08-14T04:58:24Z pheeps: loke: thanks
2015-08-14T04:59:39Z pheeps: Austria != nordic; my mistake.
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2015-08-14T05:11:13Z flip214: edgar-rft: well, Vienna is at 46°N, that's more than half-way ;)
2015-08-14T05:11:32Z flip214: is there an implementation of elisp in LUA?
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2015-08-14T05:21:08Z pheeps: 45+1°N, loL
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2015-08-14T05:33:36Z edgar-rft: The south border of Denmark, which is the most southern of the nordic countries, is at approx. 55 degrees north, Schwarzenegger's Austrian hometown is ten times closer to Italy than to Denmark.
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2015-08-14T06:44:21Z sigjuice: is there a function or tool that can translate format strings like "~{~{~S ~A~}~#[~:;, ~]~}" into English?
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2015-08-14T06:47:33Z Bike: not english, but if you do (macroexpand-1 '(formatter "string")) you may get some easier to read code.
2015-08-14T06:47:41Z Bike: M-x slime-expand-format-string, i think.
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2015-08-14T06:55:27Z sigjuice: Bike: that turned into 36-lines :)
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2015-08-14T06:55:55Z Bike: format strings are dense, yeah.
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2015-08-14T07:04:37Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-14T07:04:49Z Firedancer: -_-
2015-08-14T07:05:46Z Bike: good morning to you.
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2015-08-14T07:13:23Z theos: what is the optimal way to search through a file?
2015-08-14T07:14:27Z White_Flame: that depends on many factors
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2015-08-14T07:14:42Z White_Flame: one of the most optimal ways is to lay out the file in a tree structure, and seek to specific file offsets
2015-08-14T07:14:44Z jackdaniel: is there any optimal way?
2015-08-14T07:15:29Z theos: any alternative to grep or awk/sed?
2015-08-14T07:15:50Z White_Flame: if you want to stream, then the most optimal would usually involve having a separate reader thread from the analysis thread
2015-08-14T07:16:28Z White_Flame: (I don't think single-threaded async IO is generally exposed, but it might be)
2015-08-14T07:17:22Z theos: hmm so its a complex process
2015-08-14T07:17:30Z White_Flame: if you want "optimal" then yeah
2015-08-14T07:17:52Z White_Flame: plus, you'll want to compile your query down to some optimal format, using one of many competing schemes
2015-08-14T07:18:00Z White_Flame: parallelizing the analysis across cores if possible
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2015-08-14T07:26:38Z loke: What is lime-expand-format-string? And why don't I have it?
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2015-08-14T07:30:43Z hitecnologys: theos: optimal algorithm depends greatly on format of your file, hardware and software of computer your program is running on and, of course, the reason why you'd want to read the file.
2015-08-14T07:30:52Z hitecnologys: theos: so, more information, please.
2015-08-14T07:31:33Z theos: hitecnologys i need grep in repl. thats as simple as it gets.
2015-08-14T07:32:16Z hitecnologys: theos: then you call grep from REPL. This is the simplest most optimal solution I can think of.
2015-08-14T07:32:33Z theos: i want to move to repl to do what i do in a bash terminal
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2015-08-14T07:33:24Z hitecnologys: Well, I'd start with not reinventing the wheel. GNU grep does what it's supposed to do pretty good so you should instead write a wrapper around it.
2015-08-14T07:33:46Z hitecnologys: Besides, are you going to rewrite *everything* you use in your terminal on everyday basis?
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2015-08-14T07:34:46Z theos: yes ^^. i dont want to use any other language. only CL!
2015-08-14T07:35:06Z hitecnologys: That sounds great but I've been.
2015-08-14T07:35:14Z hitecnologys: You wouldn't want to go that road.
2015-08-14T07:35:45Z hitecnologys: Eventually, you'll just end up spending all your time developing tools that work worse that their normal analogues instead of solving tasks.
2015-08-14T07:35:55Z White_Flame: the grep source code is freely available.  Just port it then, taking its optimizations with you
2015-08-14T07:36:23Z theos: i would have to learn C too then :S
2015-08-14T07:36:47Z White_Flame: well, if you want to do it fast, then you'll have to learn quite heady algorithms anyway, just for the single-threaded streaming search part
2015-08-14T07:37:02Z White_Flame: or, you can do it naively, and have the functionality available now
2015-08-14T07:37:15Z theos: i have been avoiding learning C and similar tasteless languages since high school.
2015-08-14T07:37:39Z White_Flame: yet you want C/Unix style data processing
2015-08-14T07:38:22Z hitecnologys: theos: that's bad idea.
2015-08-14T07:38:26Z theos: no. i want an alternative style.
2015-08-14T07:38:35Z hitecnologys: theos: why are you so sure they're tasteless?
2015-08-14T07:38:36Z White_Flame: then you don't want grep
2015-08-14T07:38:52Z White_Flame: design your search language, implement it naively, bob's your uncle
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2015-08-14T07:40:40Z theos: grep was an example. maybe a bad one. i just want to search a file. and manipulate it. ya looks like i would have to write my own. well, all a poor man has is time so :)
2015-08-14T07:41:45Z hitecnologys: theos: first, you'd want to read something on general algorithms, if you're not familiar with them.
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2015-08-14T07:54:14Z theos: hitecnologys learning algorithms is easy. implementing them in CL would be tough.
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2015-08-14T07:55:41Z hitecnologys: theos: wrong. Learning algorithms is hard, implementing them right is even harder.
2015-08-14T07:56:56Z theos: hitecnologys no. i know how a lot of algorithms work. the working is easy.
2015-08-14T07:58:03Z hitecnologys: theos: a lot isn't enough. Besides, if you think that's piece of cake, consider including data structures to make things even more complicated.
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2015-08-14T08:04:25Z flip214: theos: perhaps you'd be better off with an editor written in common lisp (eg. hemlock) - that can open a file, search through it, change it, write it ...
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2015-08-14T08:11:46Z theos: flip214 i will look it up thanks
2015-08-14T08:12:35Z flip214: Is there an implementation of elisp in LUA?
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2015-08-14T08:12:58Z hitecnologys: flip214: I don't think so.
2015-08-14T08:13:15Z flip214: or in CL?
2015-08-14T08:16:36Z edgar-rft: flip214: elisp is not a very good Lisp. I don't think anybody has re-implemented it in any other language. What is the particular problem you want to solve?
2015-08-14T08:21:03Z flip214: neovim has LUA by default ... if there's a way to run elisp in lua, a compatibility layer would enable all emacs plugins to run in neovim, too. (I'm thinking of slime first, of course)
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2015-08-14T08:21:36Z flip214: or if there's a CL implementation of elisp, that could be run in the "lesser" lisp process... (eg. sbcl), alongside with swank etc.
2015-08-14T08:21:48Z loke: flip214: There is
2015-08-14T08:22:05Z flip214: loke: more details, please?
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2015-08-14T08:23:01Z loke: flip214: I believe there is an emacs lisp implementation in CL, complete with reader macro for the syntax
2015-08-14T08:23:05Z loke: I jsut can't seem to find it
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2015-08-14T08:23:44Z edgar-rft: loke: including wrapping integers and dynamically scoped LET?
2015-08-14T08:23:47Z loke: There is also common lisp implemented in elisp: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl
2015-08-14T08:24:04Z loke: edgar-rft: I don't know. I'm trying to find the source
2015-08-14T08:24:06Z flip214: loke: yeah, I already saw that ... but it's the wrong way around
2015-08-14T08:24:17Z loke: I'm pretty sure I've seen it
2015-08-14T08:25:35Z jackdaniel: clocc has elisp.lisp, but it doesn't implement full emacs lisp
2015-08-14T08:25:51Z jackdaniel: http://clocc.cvs.sourceforge.net/clocc/clocc/src/cllib/elisp.lisp?view=markup
2015-08-14T08:25:59Z loke: jackdaniel: well, implementing it wouldn't be _that_ hard.
2015-08-14T08:26:41Z jackdaniel: loke: I can deny neither confirm that - don't know elisp enough to make any sensible statement
2015-08-14T08:26:52Z jackdaniel: I only use setq on my config :D and copy-paste some functions
2015-08-14T08:27:02Z loke: I've done a bit of elisp. Have developed a few packages.
2015-08-14T08:27:13Z loke: Shouldn't be  that hard to implement
2015-08-14T08:27:19Z jackdaniel: flip214: anyway elisp.lisp might be a good starting point
2015-08-14T08:27:44Z flip214: jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-14T10:02:23Z pjb: White_Flame: symbol macros can't be used to give new names to functions.
2015-08-14T10:02:46Z pjb: White_Flame: remember: no evaluation the operator!  Therefore no macro expansion!
2015-08-14T10:02:55Z White_Flame: sorry, yeah, you're right
2015-08-14T10:04:49Z pjb: minion: memo for ToeTag: strings (as any other non-symbol atom), are "self-evaluating": they evaluate to themselves.  Therefore, the evaluation of "foo\\o" results in "foo\\o" itself, which when printed, produce the character #\" #\f #\o #\o #\\ #\\ #\o and #\" to be written on your terminal.  Which you read as the string "foo\\o" and this is nice since lisp reads "foo\\o" as the string "foo\\o" too!
2015-08-14T10:04:49Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ToeTag when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-14T10:08:06Z pjb: Cthulhux`: do you write hello-word desktop applications? Last time I looked, Firefox.app is 173 MB and my ccl Hangman.app (hello-world like) is 62 MB.
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2015-08-14T10:12:14Z pjb: flip214: there's some emacs lisp stuff in Hemlock.
2015-08-14T10:13:25Z pjb: flip214: but to run emacs "plugins" you will have to implement all of emacs inside lua inside neovim.  It would be quite a hack, but probably useless, since that wouldn't gain any vim users to emacs.
2015-08-14T10:13:58Z pjb: flip214: the only use I'd see of it, if you had to work for a company that would force you to use neovim.
2015-08-14T10:14:42Z pjb: flip214: assuming you're working for such a company, I would expect the pay to be more than excellent for you to stay, so I imagine you could fork enough money to have somebody do it for you.
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2015-08-14T10:21:26Z Posterdati: hi
2015-08-14T10:22:13Z flip214: pjb: don't think that the income disparity is big enough so that I could afford to pay somebody ;/
2015-08-14T10:22:31Z Posterdati: flip214: hi, how are you?
2015-08-14T10:22:41Z flip214: Posterdati: too hot.
2015-08-14T10:23:05Z flip214: it's still above 100°F outside... and doesn't feel any colder inside.
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2015-08-14T10:24:07Z Posterdati: here 311.15 K
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2015-08-14T10:24:53Z Posterdati: is there the trivial-features mantainer?
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2015-08-14T11:02:30Z shka: hi
2015-08-14T11:02:45Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-08-14T11:03:08Z shka: any idea why guy is using setf in read-token? https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM/blob/master/tutorial/chapter2.lisp#L21
2015-08-14T11:04:10Z jackdaniel: he wants to save last character?
2015-08-14T11:04:45Z shka:  (setf *identifier-string*
2015-08-14T11:04:48Z shka: that
2015-08-14T11:05:00Z shka: it looks strange
2015-08-14T11:05:02Z jackdaniel: it's line 24…
2015-08-14T11:05:08Z jackdaniel: not 21 ;)
2015-08-14T11:05:54Z jackdaniel: well, he grabs first token after whitespaces
2015-08-14T11:05:59Z jackdaniel: whats wrong with that?
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2015-08-14T11:06:27Z jackdaniel: and then he checks, if it's either "def" or "extern"
2015-08-14T11:06:28Z shka: eh i see why he is doing thd
2015-08-14T11:06:37Z shka: *this
2015-08-14T11:06:52Z shka: but i don't like it :/
2015-08-14T11:07:18Z jackdaniel: you asked why, if you'd ask "why so ugly" then I wouldn't bother to analize ;p
2015-08-14T11:08:02Z jackdaniel: but it's not particulary ugly either
2015-08-14T11:08:29Z shka: global context for last string? :P
2015-08-14T11:09:22Z shka: look at the end of the file
2015-08-14T11:09:27Z shka: it is ugly
2015-08-14T11:09:36Z jackdaniel: it is used also in parse-identifier-expression
2015-08-14T11:10:05Z shka: yes
2015-08-14T11:10:26Z shka: guy does not like returning values
2015-08-14T11:16:11Z flip214: perhaps it's a girl?
2015-08-14T11:16:15Z flip214 didn't bother to check
2015-08-14T11:17:21Z jackdaniel: girls are subtle, and are mysteries! it's too bold for them ;-)
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2015-08-14T11:19:45Z shka: well im to harsh
2015-08-14T11:19:52Z shka: it is just tutrial
2015-08-14T11:19:55Z flip214: well, can't it be too italicized?
2015-08-14T11:20:18Z shka: and i guess it is ok
2015-08-14T11:20:19Z jackdaniel: heheh
2015-08-14T11:21:43Z Guthur: it's possible that sellout was following the original kaleidoscope tutorial
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2015-08-14T12:35:23Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-08-14T12:52:44Z Posterdati: what I did wrong? ---> https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/263
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2015-08-14T12:58:51Z PuercoPop: Posterdati: it is not wrong but iiuc luis wanted you to rebase, adding the changelog change to the commit before. go git rebase interactive and fixup the Update changelog commit into the Update swank-loader.lisp
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2015-08-14T12:59:30Z isBEKaml: Posterdati: looks like a few tests had failed: https://travis-ci.org/slime/slime/jobs/75584790#L1198
2015-08-14T12:59:35Z PuercoPop: ahh, you opened a new pr, you could just push force into the previous one
2015-08-14T12:59:38Z isBEKaml: Posterdati: perhaps you can check these?
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2015-08-14T13:05:30Z PuercoPop: from a discussion going on in #sbcl it appears to be unrelated to your change Posterdati.
2015-08-14T13:05:53Z PuercoPop: (the failure that is)
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2015-08-14T14:50:15Z luis: PuercoPop: indeed.
2015-08-14T14:50:59Z luis: It's unfortunate that when the dependencies change and introduce a bug, the first pull request or commit randomly gets assigned the blame. :)
2015-08-14T14:51:28Z luis: In this case, the problem was that SBCL was upgraded in cl-travis.
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2015-08-14T16:04:22Z dwchandler: luis: you mean upgrading cl-travis came with upgraded sbcl, which broke things? But then the commit that broke things would be the one updating cl-travis, right?
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2015-08-14T21:14:39Z dxtr: Okay, is sbcl or buildapp caching my files somewhere? I'm trying to compile my code with buildapp but no matter what I do my changes won't take effect
2015-08-14T21:15:10Z _death: rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp
2015-08-14T21:16:17Z dxtr: Didn't help :P
2015-08-14T21:16:36Z _death: did you save your files
2015-08-14T21:16:47Z dxtr: Multiple times
2015-08-14T21:17:05Z _death: then maybe you're misinterpreting the results
2015-08-14T21:17:54Z dxtr: Well, it's hard to misinterpret that a line that is commented is being executed
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2015-08-14T21:18:17Z dxtr: Especially considering it's printing output
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2015-08-14T21:19:02Z dxtr: And I've tried grepping the file to see if I have been a moron and put the same line in more places
2015-08-14T21:19:08Z dxtr: But no
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2015-08-14T21:41:05Z pheeps: Is the "asp" in CLASP stand for "Answer Set Programming"?
2015-08-14T21:41:24Z pheeps: , /Is/Does/
2015-08-14T21:41:48Z dim: dxtr: you're sure it compiles fine and replaces the current image you're testing with?
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2015-08-14T21:43:42Z dxtr: dim: I'm removing the old image and at least it isn't complaining
2015-08-14T21:44:26Z dxtr: But another thing that make me sure it's using old code from somewhere is that in build.log I get a warning about a deprecated function that I replaced a few days ago even
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2015-08-14T21:46:21Z dxtr: And it works if I run the file with sbcl --load
2015-08-14T21:46:29Z dxtr: Without errors
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2015-08-14T21:47:31Z dwchandler: weird
2015-08-14T21:48:10Z dxtr: to say the least
2015-08-14T21:48:23Z dwchandler: running it with ./app or what?
2015-08-14T21:49:09Z Nuri: selam (resmen amsg attım ha :) )
2015-08-14T21:50:37Z dxtr: Yes
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2015-08-15T01:51:35Z akkad ponders if any of the s3 libs are still useable
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2015-08-15T02:03:06Z Xach uses zs3 daily hundreds of times
2015-08-15T02:04:08Z akkad: thanks Xach
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2015-08-15T03:30:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-15T03:45:02Z Xach: a new day of hacking has dawned
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2015-08-15T03:52:24Z beach: A short one.  It's a holiday, and it's the weekend.  Need time to rest as well.
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2015-08-15T04:26:58Z beach: There is nothing to see here.  Moving along.
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2015-08-15T07:03:43Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-15T07:24:38Z GoogleMePlox: What are the advantages for learning CL as a first langauge? What makes it better for a newcomer?
2015-08-15T07:25:46Z jackdaniel: GoogleMePlox: you know concepts other languages adopt or will adopt in the future
2015-08-15T07:26:17Z jackdaniel: ie lambda was lately adopted for c++ – for CL programmer it is something common
2015-08-15T07:26:50Z jackdaniel: when some languages will start to adopt macros, you'll have adventage of knowing, what their proper use-cases are and what is risky if you use them
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2015-08-15T07:33:52Z loz1: it was hard for me to learn cl, but experience with c-like languages is probably the reason
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2015-08-15T07:35:29Z phadthai: GoogleMePlox: maybe of interest: http://cvs.pulsar-zone.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/mmondor/mmsoftware/cl/test/advantages-of-common-lisp.txt?rev=1.8;content-type=text%2Fplain
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2015-08-15T07:38:03Z Guthur: GoogleMePlox: you will probably have to learn a number of languages at some point anyway, and CL is certainly a good one to make one of the set
2015-08-15T07:38:59Z Guthur: doing it first will allow you to come with less preconceptions
2015-08-15T07:56:46Z loz1: how does macroexpander expand folded macros? does it expands form until there are no mo macros?
2015-08-15T07:57:32Z loz1: for example
2015-08-15T07:57:33Z loz1: CL-USER> (defmacro swap (a b ) (list b a))
2015-08-15T07:57:33Z loz1: CL-USER> (macroexpand '(swap (swap '(1 2 3) cdr) car)) => (CAR (SWAP '(1 2 3) CDR))
2015-08-15T07:57:59Z loz1: first swap got expanded, but it has macro in its arguments
2015-08-15T07:59:54Z jsnell: macroexpansion only happens for the outermost form
2015-08-15T08:00:14Z jsnell: if you want recursive expansion, you need a code walker
2015-08-15T08:00:31Z loz1: (defmacro testm (v) (list 'swap v 'list))
2015-08-15T08:00:31Z loz1: (testm 5) => 5
2015-08-15T08:00:44Z loz1: looks like it expands until there are no more macros
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2015-08-15T08:01:35Z loz1: *(5) is result of last form
2015-08-15T08:02:45Z loz1: GoogleMePlox: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html here is nice feature review
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2015-08-15T08:51:23Z hitecnologys: loz1: it's quite old. Nowadays many mainstream languages have many of these points.
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2015-08-15T11:35:12Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-08-15T11:35:20Z beach: hitecnologys: Are you still here?
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2015-08-15T11:37:49Z beach: hitecnologys: [I am reading the logs] Since I am the original author of that list of features, I am interested in your last remark.  Perhaps I am just out of the loop, or perhaps we have different definitions of "many" and "mainstream", but I would like to know the names of those languages and what features in that list that they have.
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2015-08-15T11:40:04Z pjb: c11 has complex, I guess C++ too.
2015-08-15T11:40:40Z beach: So a different definition of "many" features then.
2015-08-15T11:40:59Z hitecnologys: beach: aye, I am.
2015-08-15T11:41:02Z beach: I would expect each of those many languages to have at least half of the features in order for it to count.
2015-08-15T11:41:15Z hitecnologys: beach: router rebooted so I disconnected.
2015-08-15T11:42:18Z pjb: I don't think so. Even adding lambda to C++ won't compensate.  Of course, in C++ you can implement features of similar behavior, but you can count that in favor of C++.  http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2015-08-15T11:42:45Z beach: pjb: What is it that you don't think?
2015-08-15T11:43:08Z pjb: I don't think that those language will have at least half of the features.  So I think they won't be able to be counted in.
2015-08-15T11:43:34Z beach: pjb: I am keeping an open mind here.  I would like to learn about all those mainstream languages that hitecnologys had in mind.
2015-08-15T11:43:48Z hitecnologys: beach: modern versions of C#, C++ and Java have many of aspects of functional programming languages including first-class things, generic functions and lambda-functions. I'm not quite familiar with them, but I've heard from people that code in those languages that the situation is going to improve even further.
2015-08-15T11:43:49Z beach: pjb: Perhaps you and I are just out of the loop or too old or both.
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2015-08-15T11:44:28Z beach: hitecnologys: That's not even 10% of the features in that list.
2015-08-15T11:44:35Z hitecnologys: beach: and by many I meant at least three, yes. Not exactly many but still quite a lot if we consider how many people write in them.
2015-08-15T11:44:36Z beach: Do you think 10% is "many"?
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2015-08-15T11:44:47Z beach: I see, that answers my question.  Thanks.
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2015-08-15T11:45:50Z pjb: If there was still a course about "comparative programming language design", that could be an exercises for students, to compare each a given language with CL. ;-)
2015-08-15T11:46:05Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-08-15T11:46:54Z hitecnologys: Well, that would be great. It's actually sad that no one keeps tabs on how different languages correlate and solve tasks in different fields.
2015-08-15T11:48:33Z pjb: beach: rosettacode.org could help.  But can we say that eg. C++ has the feature of CL used in eg. the accumulator factory, when we see that it takes 20 times more code to implement it in C++ than in CL?  http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Accumulator_factory  (and similarly for the other stuff in rosettacode.org, but granted one might want to scan it for cases where CL is more verbose).
2015-08-15T11:49:08Z pjb: hitecnologys: the only defect of rosettacode.org is that it gives example texts, not dictionary/grammar comparisons.
2015-08-15T11:50:08Z hitecnologys: pjb: right. Example tasks are good to see how problem could be solved but not what's the difference so you'd have to do all the calculations yourself. Comparative tables for each aspect would be great but that's quite a time consuming job.
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2015-08-15T11:52:59Z pjb: hitecnologys: however, I guess some automatic processing of rosettacode.org could be done.  At least some statistics.  And having parsers for the main languages, we could even match syntactic elements to identified CL features.
2015-08-15T11:53:31Z hitecnologys: pjb: right, but that requires a lot of work anyway, to write the parsers and analyzers.
2015-08-15T11:53:41Z pjb: I mean, we already have parsers.
2015-08-15T11:53:55Z pjb: CL, python, C, scheme, javascript, etc.
2015-08-15T11:53:59Z pjb: fortran.
2015-08-15T11:54:52Z hitecnologys: Well, they don't do what we need out of the box so we still need to adapt them to the task.
2015-08-15T11:55:00Z pjb: yes.
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2015-08-15T13:38:21Z jeaye: How can I sort a list with respect to another?
2015-08-15T13:39:47Z jeaye: In a loop, I'm accumulating, say, ("R" "I", "P") and I have a schema that says, if any of those strings exist, they should be in the order of ("P" "R" "I" "N" "T").
2015-08-15T13:40:02Z pjb: (defun lessp (a b order) (let ((pa (position a order)) (pb (position b order))) (and pa pb (< pa pb))))
2015-08-15T13:40:22Z pjb: (sort one-list (lambda (a b) (lessp a b other-list)))
2015-08-15T13:40:36Z pjb: + :test  parameters
2015-08-15T13:40:42Z pjb: and :key too to make it nice.
2015-08-15T13:40:50Z jeaye: My first approach was to just sort the collected list with a lambda which compares the index found in the schema, but that would require writing a function which finds the index in a list.
2015-08-15T13:41:08Z pjb: Of course, using position like that is bound to make it very slow, so you might want a better algorithm.
2015-08-15T13:41:27Z pjb: jeaye: why would you rewrite POSITION?
2015-08-15T13:41:53Z jeaye: pjb: Not intentionally. :) I just didn't know about it.
2015-08-15T13:42:03Z pjb: use the hyperspec!
2015-08-15T13:42:11Z pjb: or (apropos "POSITION")
2015-08-15T13:42:29Z jeaye: pjb: I've been searching for "index"
2015-08-15T13:42:37Z jeaye: pjb: What's the hyperspec?
2015-08-15T13:42:43Z pjb: not (apropos "INDEX"), it's well known that index is a reserved C identifier :-)
2015-08-15T13:42:46Z pjb: clhs position
2015-08-15T13:42:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm
2015-08-15T13:43:05Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Front
2015-08-15T13:43:17Z jeaye: Now that I know of position, implementing the algorithm as I had imagined will work fine (sure, likely not ideally efficient).
2015-08-15T13:43:18Z pjb: jeaye: cf. the symbol indices.
2015-08-15T13:43:42Z pjb: Yes, your imagination is what I wrote above.
2015-08-15T13:43:51Z jeaye: Yup. Thanks for the snippet.
2015-08-15T13:44:12Z jeaye: pjb: Know if there's hyperspec intergration for slimv?
2015-08-15T13:44:13Z pjb: You can also (defun make-order (order) (lambda (a b) (let ((pa (position a order)) (pb (position b order))) (and pa pb (< pa pb)))))
2015-08-15T13:44:23Z pjb: and (sort one-list (make-order other-list))
2015-08-15T13:45:26Z pjb: jeaye: I don't know slimv. There's with slime with C-c C-d
2015-08-15T13:45:55Z jeaye: pjb: Alright, thanks again. You've given me a lot to go on.
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2015-08-15T15:04:52Z jeaye: How can I: 1) clean up this loop; 2) get rid of the trailing comma? http://dpaste.com/3W9J3GR
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2015-08-15T15:06:06Z jeaye: Ah, to answer the first one: dolist
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2015-08-15T15:10:51Z Xach: jeaye: you can also do (loop for (first second) in pairs for comma = "," then "" do (format t "~A~A.~A" first second))
2015-08-15T15:11:02Z Xach: oops, (format t "..." comma first second)
2015-08-15T15:11:08Z Xach: not tested
2015-08-15T15:11:13Z Xach: so many other options, too
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2015-08-15T15:11:59Z jeaye: Xach: I need it to be a comma for all but the last run.
2015-08-15T15:12:12Z jeaye: So, if there are 10 pairs, then I need 9 commas.
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2015-08-15T15:15:13Z H4ns: (format "~{~{~A.~A~}~^,}" pairs) maybe?
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2015-08-15T15:18:12Z H4ns: (format "~{~{~A.~A~}~^,~}" pairs) would be more like it, but then
2015-08-15T15:18:47Z Xach: "" then "," then
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2015-08-15T15:20:35Z jeaye: Ah
2015-08-15T15:21:58Z jeaye: Xach: I understand what you mean now. Thanks.
2015-08-15T15:22:24Z jeaye: H4ns: Will look into what you're doing with ~^,} there.
2015-08-15T15:22:45Z mood: jeaye: Note that you also need a ~ before the }
2015-08-15T15:22:58Z jeaye: Ah, of course.
2015-08-15T15:24:38Z H4ns: jeaye: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cib.htm - you may also need apply or recursive processing.  a loop is probably easier to read in the end.
2015-08-15T15:25:00Z jeaye: Will look. I do have the loop working now.
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2015-08-15T15:28:57Z jeaye: There's one last thing I need to do, but I seem to've fucked myself over.
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2015-08-15T15:29:29Z jeaye: (my first non-trivial CL program includes a function: https://gist.github.com/jeaye/cf6ffec727fb11d16cca )
2015-08-15T15:30:37Z jeaye: I need to also change student-level, after each loop, to effectively increment it, thus modifying the student. The issues is that, since I've filtered the levels to begin with, I have no good way of mapping the level back into the student.
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2015-08-15T15:32:10Z jeaye: I'm not sure if I can rely on using setf on the loop variable and having it reflect in the student, I suppose.
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2015-08-15T15:49:52Z noHue6: Hi. Is it possible to make circular list immutably?
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2015-08-15T15:50:38Z noHue6: Without destructive functions such as nconc or setf I mean.
2015-08-15T15:51:46Z ggole: The reader lets you construct them directly (in fact, look at the subject).
2015-08-15T15:53:43Z noHue6: I know about #= read macro, but what about functions? How do I append #1# to existing list?
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2015-08-15T15:54:25Z ggole: Then no
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2015-08-15T15:55:52Z noHue6: Maybe alexandria has some sort of circular objects implemented with CLOS?
2015-08-15T15:57:01Z ggole: If so, that would pretty much amount to mutation under the hood anyway
2015-08-15T15:57:17Z ggole: (Or lazy recursive binding, which is closely related - but CL doesn't have that.)
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2015-08-15T15:58:16Z noHue6: Ok. Thank you, friendly person.
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2015-08-15T16:33:41Z Lokathor: is CLOCC still a thing people use?
2015-08-15T16:34:05Z Lokathor: I'm looking at the sourceforge repo and a lot of these checkin dates seem to be a decade old
2015-08-15T16:34:17Z Lokathor: mostly i just want a sockets library
2015-08-15T16:34:42Z oGMo: mk-defsystem? heh probably not
2015-08-15T16:34:47Z phadthai: look at iolib and usockets
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2015-08-15T16:43:21Z Lokathor: so i'm looking at usocket
2015-08-15T16:43:40Z Lokathor: but i have no idea how to get this code to be loaded by my own code
2015-08-15T16:43:49Z Lokathor: iolib has a makefile, but usocket does not
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2015-08-15T16:43:59Z oGMo: Lokathor: since you're like ea decade out of date, check out quicklisp and asdf ;)
2015-08-15T16:44:27Z Lokathor: oh, is the "usocket.asd" probably an asdf project file type of thing?
2015-08-15T16:44:44Z phadthai: Lokathor: yes
2015-08-15T16:44:59Z Xach: i have been interested in trying https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc
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2015-08-15T16:51:50Z Lokathor: well i just need a textual socket
2015-08-15T16:51:59Z Lokathor: i guess usocket might be what i need
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2015-08-15T16:55:32Z dim: Xach: I'm interested about any findings on that front!
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2015-08-15T17:03:58Z Lokathor: so quicklisp isn't a stand alone program... it's a lisp file i load into a lisp session and run?
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2015-08-15T17:05:14Z Lokathor: and are the packages it installs installed to a local directory like a git directory, or are they installed to the system? should i run it as root?
2015-08-15T17:05:41Z p_l: installed into your home directory
2015-08-15T17:06:01Z Lokathor: that seems reasonable
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2015-08-15T17:12:43Z pjb: noHue6: you can make an immutable data structure that represents a circular structure.
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2015-08-15T17:39:30Z jasom: Xach: Lokathor: I have had very good success with basic-binary-ipc (and even ported a single-threaded version of woo to it).
2015-08-15T17:40:33Z jasom: Lokathor: it defaults to installing in ~/quicklisp but you can install it wherever you want (and even have multiple installs if you're into that sort of thing).
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2015-08-15T17:41:05Z jasom: The author of basic-binary-ipc mentioned that the windows stuff could use some TLC, but I haven't used it heavily there.
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2015-08-15T17:42:37Z jasom: there's also a libev binding which comes with its own event-loop (with basic-binary-ipc you write your own).
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2015-08-15T18:05:13Z Fare: jasom: have you looked into iolib?
2015-08-15T18:05:13Z minion: Fare, memo from jackdaniel: I've checked asdf patch for run-program - you misunderstood me - run-program had :error parameter, but stream isn't hold in external-process structure. Valid arguments were (before 15.3.7): NIL, T and :OUTPUT - NIL meant ignoring error output, T - use *standard-error*, :OUTPUT - use same stream as :output
2015-08-15T18:05:13Z minion: Fare, memo from jackdaniel: s/isn't hold/weren't hold/
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2015-08-15T18:08:35Z Fare: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I didn't understand your explanation. If the fix is simple, can you send me a patch? If it isn't, can you send me an example where my code fails, or a session describing the key features of the underlying objects in a situation where I fail?
2015-08-15T18:08:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-15T18:09:01Z Fare: it's hard enough to write code against (a version of) an implementation that you can't run against.
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2015-08-15T18:26:14Z Lokathor: jasom, i mostly ask because sometimes a language prefers to have global installs and sometimes a language prefers to install libraries into every project directory
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2015-08-15T18:27:32Z Lokathor: I got usocket, and i got the quicklisp/slime compatibility thing, so i'll try that later today
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2015-08-15T18:27:57Z Lokathor: my use case is just connecting to freenode to make an IRC bot, so I don't really need any special socket features
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2015-08-15T18:31:18Z phadthai: Lokathor: maybe also check http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=irc if there's something you want to try
2015-08-15T18:31:21Z mood: Lokathor: Just to note, you could use an IRC library for that. There's the common cl-irc and there's Birch, written by me
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2015-08-15T18:32:22Z Lokathor: i will keep the cliki in mind for the future
2015-08-15T18:32:36Z Lokathor: mood, it looks like birch is built on top of usocket anyway
2015-08-15T18:32:42Z mood: Yes
2015-08-15T18:33:39Z Lokathor: well i don't really know any CL actually
2015-08-15T18:33:55Z Lokathor: so i think i should try to write more of it myself as practice to start
2015-08-15T18:35:36Z Lokathor: though, my current impression is that lisp is not the long term language for me really
2015-08-15T18:35:41Z phadthai: I also wrote an irc bot some time back, and it indeed was an interesting experience to write the core and then interactively develop it more as it was already running (Lisp is nice for interactive development)
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2015-08-15T19:15:05Z phf: basic-binary-ipc kind of looks like WIRE package from cmucl, is there any particular reason that one never caught on?
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2015-08-15T19:36:42Z jackdaniel: Fare: my bad, I misunderstood uiop code, cancel memo
2015-08-15T19:36:42Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from Fare: I didn't understand your explanation. If the fix is simple, can you send me a patch? If it isn't, can you send me an example where my code fails, or a session describing the key features of the underlying objects in a situation where I fail?
2015-08-15T19:38:07Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Fare: I've misunderstood uiop code, cancel last memo. What do you mean by not being able to test code against specific version? does ECL fail to build on your host?
2015-08-15T19:38:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-15T19:38:41Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dim: have you spot problem in pgloader with those ambigous lambda?
2015-08-15T19:38:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-15T19:39:01Z jackdaniel: good night everyone o/
2015-08-15T19:39:14Z francogrex: hi I am writing a new lisp.nanorc and I would like to color symbols according to whether they are function, macros,etc... I trie to extract using (do-symbols (x) (print ... x (type-of x))) but it all comes out as symbols ok how to get more specific for each symbol?
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2015-08-15T19:42:42Z phadthai: francogrex: you could check the symbol bindings (i.e. using symbol-function, symbol-value); for macros it'd be tricky, because they have been expanded at compile-time; but you could still verify if a macro function exists, i.e. with macro-function perhaps
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2015-08-15T19:45:03Z francogrex: phadthai: symbol-function is ok, ex: (symbol-function 'defun) => #<CLOSURE (:MACRO DEFUN) {97E583D}>
2015-08-15T19:45:09Z francogrex: thanks
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2015-08-15T19:45:48Z p_l: phf: quite often, when people look for IPC libs they want something portable beyond lisp
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2015-08-15T19:47:44Z francogrex: from a closure like this: #<CLOSURE (:MACRO DEFPARAMETER) {980D515}> could I use slot-value or inspect to drill-down
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2015-08-15T19:53:44Z capitaomorte_: is anyone familiar with the READ-FROM-STRING tricks to be able to read package-specific symbols before that package is loaded?
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2015-08-15T19:54:01Z Fare: jackdaniel, uiop works for me so far
2015-08-15T19:54:01Z minion: Fare, memo from jackdaniel: I've misunderstood uiop code, cancel last memo. What do you mean by not being able to test code against specific version? does ECL fail to build on your host?
2015-08-15T19:54:20Z Fare: I haven't tested run-program against your new branch.
2015-08-15T19:54:22Z Xach: Fare: have you been able to test on allegro 10?
2015-08-15T19:54:24Z capitaomorte_: does it work for setf functions as well?
2015-08-15T19:54:42Z Xach: Fare: I have run into an error with uiop that I don't understand when loading uiop into allegro 10.
2015-08-15T19:54:43Z Fare: and there's this bundle failure on macos that rpgoldman sees (I don't have macos)
2015-08-15T19:55:02Z Fare: Xach: I'm still using 9. Are there failures with 10?
2015-08-15T19:55:15Z Fare: Xach: do you have a backtrace?
2015-08-15T19:55:22Z Xach: Fare: when i try to load uiop 3.1.5 in allegro 10, i get a macroexpansion error that looks like a possible allegro error
2015-08-15T19:55:52Z Fare: is there a 10 express version for download so I may debug myself?
2015-08-15T19:56:08Z Xach: the error is with (defun* featurep ..) and it manifests as "`t' is not of the expected type `list'"
2015-08-15T19:56:22Z Fare: or a machine with a license that I can log into?
2015-08-15T19:56:24Z Xach: Fare: I don't think so. I think you have to ask Franz for it, but I'm not sure.
2015-08-15T19:56:25Z p_l: phf: for what it's worth, I'm reminded of Symbolics' "server" packages with binary-ipc
2015-08-15T19:56:52Z Xach: Fare: someone has already started the support process with franz, so I'll check their reply and let you know
2015-08-15T19:57:31Z Fare: featurep looks trivial enough for me... but if it's the enclosing with-upgradability, then there are many definitions there. Can you narrow it down by isolating them in their own with-upgradability?
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2015-08-15T19:58:53Z Fare: the other forms also look quite non-offensive to me, especially at macro-expansion time.
2015-08-15T19:59:19Z Fare: though they do manipulate *features*
2015-08-15T20:00:25Z Fare: I see an email from Dave Cooper.
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2015-08-15T20:17:09Z capitaomorte_: Well here it is in case anyone's interested: (funcall (fdefinition (read-from-string "(setf some-package-not-loaded-yet::setter)")) value)
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2015-08-15T20:18:29Z Fare: fdefinition of a setf form isn't completely portable in practice. Dunno if it's portable according to clhs
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2015-08-15T20:19:18Z capitaomorte_: Fare: know any other way around it then?
2015-08-15T20:19:26Z capitaomorte_: except eval, that is
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2015-08-15T20:20:47Z Bike: where the heck does fdefinition of a setf function not work
2015-08-15T20:21:03Z capitaomorte_: Fare: you're right " The value returned by fdefinition when fboundp returns true but the function-name denotes a macro or special form is not well-defined, but fdefinition does not signal an error.   Examples: None. "
2015-08-15T20:21:18Z Fare: capitao: (1) you recognize that the form is indeed a (setf <symbol>); (2) you use eval.
2015-08-15T20:21:51Z capitaomorte_: I don't understand (1)
2015-08-15T20:22:08Z capitaomorte_: I do recognize that it is, that's a given.
2015-08-15T20:22:19Z Fare: (optima:ifmatch form `(setf ,(symbol s)) ...)
2015-08-15T20:22:46Z francogrex: is a closure considere a clos object?
2015-08-15T20:23:50Z Xach: francogrex: it is an object whose class is a system class.
2015-08-15T20:25:06Z capitaomorte_: Fare: sorry , i still don't understand, it's not a matter of recognzing, it's a matter of acessing a setf "function" that i presume will exist and then calling it
2015-08-15T20:25:28Z francogrex: Xach: so I shouldn't expect it to have slot-names then?
2015-08-15T20:25:33Z capitaomorte_: just like (funcall (read-from-string "blabla::ble"))
2015-08-15T20:25:38Z Fare: well, when you know, extract the symbol and use eval?
2015-08-15T20:25:51Z capitaomorte_: Fare: OK :-)
2015-08-15T20:26:10Z capitaomorte_: Ah so (1) and (2) weren't mutually exclusive, they were one after the other
2015-08-15T20:26:34Z capitaomorte_: Thanks, gotta go
2015-08-15T20:27:08Z Fare: (funcall (let ((x (gensym)) (y (gensym))) (eval `(lambda (,x ,y) (setf (,s ,x) ,y)))) a b)
2015-08-15T20:27:16Z Fare: yes
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2015-08-15T20:46:28Z dim: jackdaniel: still on my todo list
2015-08-15T20:46:28Z minion: dim, memo from jackdaniel: have you spot problem in pgloader with those ambigous lambda?
2015-08-15T20:46:40Z dim: jackdaniel: vacations, about all of august ;-)
2015-08-15T20:46:59Z dim: if I wasn't that lazy I would do it now actually
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2015-08-15T20:56:51Z dim: looks like non-trivial work tho
2015-08-15T20:59:18Z knobo_: HOw does the new form number debug information  in slime/sbcl work?
2015-08-15T20:59:23Z knobo_: how can I test it?
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2015-08-15T21:01:08Z knobo_: Is it for compilation or runtime errors?
2015-08-15T21:01:11Z knobo_: or both
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2015-08-15T22:02:58Z dim: minion: memo for jackdaniel: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/56a89e9b53e74d51b99248e4aacd4cc4d5dc8154 fixes the problem you reported, your turn ;-)
2015-08-15T22:02:58Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-15T22:12:57Z myztic: anyone using stumpwn?
2015-08-15T22:13:00Z myztic: *stumpwm
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2015-08-15T23:12:33Z pjb: myztic: yes, someone's using it.
2015-08-15T23:13:55Z myztic: pjb: sorry
2015-08-15T23:13:58Z myztic: stupid question, I admit
2015-08-15T23:14:36Z pjb: Not necessarily, but the probability that nobody uses it is very low indeed.
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2015-08-15T23:25:35Z pjb: I'm surprized you don't seem to have any other question.
2015-08-15T23:27:02Z Xach: pjb: Maybe he is not interested in pedantic bullshit answers.
2015-08-15T23:27:11Z Xach: Or she.
2015-08-15T23:39:09Z Fare: apparently, allegro 10 has a boolean optimizer that kicks in when it shouldn't, or something (generalized boolean simplified to T when it's used for its value... oops)
2015-08-15T23:39:28Z Fare: glad that was found early
2015-08-15T23:39:55Z White_Flame: that would severely damage a lot of my code.  I tend to think about process with those sorts of operations.
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2015-08-16T00:02:49Z pjb: Xach: and perhaps I'm not interested in useless questions.
2015-08-16T00:03:34Z Xach: Beta testing is good
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2015-08-16T00:08:26Z Fare: Xach: what's the status of quicklisp & asdf 3 ?
2015-08-16T00:08:32Z Fare: anything I can do to help?
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2015-08-16T00:10:51Z Xach: Divorcing UIOP from ASDF would help.
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2015-08-16T00:17:45Z dim: pjb: ignoring is easier than pushing people away, IME
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2015-08-16T01:17:33Z Seeq: Anyone have a clue as to why with CCL, evaluating the random function in an emacs buffer gives me the same result every time, but doing it in the repl gives me the expected random result? It works as expected both ways using SBCL.
2015-08-16T01:19:51Z Xach: Seeq: it seems to be answered in http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
2015-08-16T01:21:01Z Seeq: Ah, gotcha. Thanks!
2015-08-16T01:35:44Z myztic: dim: I am not angry at anyone or such, I think it was a stupid question tbh
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2015-08-16T01:55:53Z Xach feels a strong urge to switch to (mapc ...) after years of (map nil ...)
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2015-08-16T02:13:11Z loke`: Do it!
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2015-08-16T02:24:58Z Fare: Xach: so far, only MKCL and SBCL provide UIOP without ASDF.
2015-08-16T02:25:28Z loke`: Fare: Are you saying that SBCL ships with uiop?
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2015-08-16T02:25:37Z Fare: (require :uiop)
2015-08-16T02:26:30Z loke`: Fare: Does it conflict with the uiop from QL
2015-08-16T02:26:31Z loke`: ?
2015-08-16T02:26:41Z Fare: I should improve the release scripts to make it easier for implementations to grab a version of uiop.lisp and a version of asdf.lisp that does (require :uiop) instead of transcluding uiop.
2015-08-16T02:26:56Z Fare: loke: not any more or less than the uiop transcluded in asdf.
2015-08-16T02:27:48Z loke`: I have to admit that I've never heard the word transclude before. What do you mean by that?
2015-08-16T02:28:32Z Fare: it includes a copy
2015-08-16T02:28:50Z Fare: first I saw the word was in a description of Xanadu.
2015-08-16T02:29:11Z Fare: the system that failed to be the WWW because it insisted too much on intellectual property control freaking.
2015-08-16T02:30:43Z phf: Fare: this has probably been asked before, but if there's any way to fix jump to source, and is that something that you've been thinking about? when you do jump to any of the asdf functions, it puts you at the with-upgradable (sp?) macro
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2015-08-16T02:31:05Z loke`: Fare: I saw xanadu. The ideas were interesting but the implementation was terrible.
2015-08-16T02:31:06Z Fare: allowing versions of asdf and uiop to not be in synch can also be "interesting", though what asdf uses of uiop is pretty stable these days.
2015-08-16T02:31:19Z loke`: Fare: it was the brainchild of Engelbart, wasn't it?
2015-08-16T02:32:01Z Fare: phf: I could wrap individual forms each in their with-upgradability macro. Meh.
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2015-08-16T02:32:59Z phf: so no to both questions
2015-08-16T02:33:26Z Fare: if you (require :asdf), on most implementations you get no source, anyway
2015-08-16T02:33:47Z Fare: (though see README.md for how to get source, at that granularity)
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2015-08-16T02:34:28Z phf: so in order to figure out what's going on inside asdf, i need to install the non-transcluded version of the project?
2015-08-16T02:34:46Z phf: asdf and uiop
2015-08-16T02:34:49Z Fare: if you install the asdf source, though, I believe at least allegro and ccl provide better source granularity for asdf definitions.
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2015-08-16T02:35:27Z Fare: though they do it for the concatenated asdf.lisp — to get to the actual source file, once again, see README.md
2015-08-16T02:36:16Z Fare: also, for asdf4, I'm hoping to remove the need to concatenate files into a single lisp source.
2015-08-16T02:37:20Z Fare: although I'm not sure how to replace perform-with-restarts in this case
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2015-08-16T02:38:15Z Fare: obviously, when you compile in subprocesses or remote slaves, the restart needs to be on the master
2015-08-16T02:38:54Z Fare: and when you build asynchronously, you have to deal with a set of restarts rather than just one restart.
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2015-08-16T02:43:02Z phf: i take it parallel compilation functionality brought over from xcvb?
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2015-08-16T02:53:22Z Efi: good night
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2015-08-16T02:53:34Z Efi: may I request some assistance?
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2015-08-16T02:54:17Z Efi: I am trying to set up lispbuilder
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2015-08-16T03:24:59Z pjb: Seeq: (push `(*random-state* . ,(make-random-state t)) *swank-bindings*) in ~/.swank.lisp
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2015-08-16T03:25:47Z jeaye: After having loaded iterate from quicklisp, why would I be undefined here? (iter (for i from 0 to 10) (collect i))
2015-08-16T03:26:29Z XachX: Package, possibly
2015-08-16T03:27:48Z jeaye: I'm very new to CL, sorry; would I also need to scope ITER on some package name?
2015-08-16T03:28:16Z loke`: jeaye: If you're new to CL, you might want to use LOOP
2015-08-16T03:28:32Z loke`: it's the standard after all, and iter tends to be a bit controversial.
2015-08-16T03:28:48Z jeaye: loke`: I currently have written my program using LOOP and I'm looking to port since I find ITER to be interesting.
2015-08-16T03:29:20Z loke`: jeaye: Fair enough. :-)
2015-08-16T03:29:34Z jeaye: Just exercising, really.
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2015-08-16T03:29:53Z loke`: The one thing iter has going for it is the extensibility
2015-08-16T03:30:13Z jeaye: Aye, as the docs mentioned.
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2015-08-16T03:30:15Z loke`: I've never really had the need for that though (or, I though say, had enough of a need for it to warrant using iter)
2015-08-16T03:30:43Z Lokathor: does CL not have a "fold" sort of builtin?
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2015-08-16T03:31:01Z phf: Lokathor: reduce
2015-08-16T03:31:21Z jeaye: loke`: I see.
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2015-08-16T03:31:51Z jeaye: Still, it would be nice to find out what I'm doing wrong here so it doesn't bite me in the future.
2015-08-16T03:33:05Z phf: jeaye: you probably want to read this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2015-08-16T03:33:37Z jeaye: Sure.
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2015-08-16T03:36:59Z Xach: short answer is that packages provide a way to manage symbols. the name of things a project defines is generally within a given package, and to use that project's things, you have to use the right names for its things. there are ways to manage how you write those names.
2015-08-16T03:37:28Z Xach: longer answer is check that link
2015-08-16T03:37:44Z jeaye: Short answers are great; I'm not at all new to programming, just CL.
2015-08-16T03:37:48Z Xach: the standard is very clear on the topic in hindsight, but not a smooth tutorial
2015-08-16T03:38:07Z phf: i started writing about use-package, and then realize that it's a can of worms with an already interned iter, and then you have to explain shadowing and restarts..
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2015-08-16T03:38:30Z Lokathor: so when the quicklisp docs said to use (ql:quickload "thing") to load a thing, ql: is the package identifier and quickload is the actual function, right?
2015-08-16T03:38:54Z jeaye: That's my understanding.
2015-08-16T03:39:13Z Xach: Lokathor: QL is the package name (or nickname), ":" is the ... I'm drawing a blank, package marker maybe? and the rest is the symbol name.
2015-08-16T03:39:32Z Xach: together they identify a specific symbol that names a function
2015-08-16T03:39:58Z Xach: what a bare QUICKLOAD means depends on the configuration of the package that is the value of *PACKAGE*
2015-08-16T03:40:12Z Xach: with a package prefix, it is not ambiguous
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2015-08-16T03:40:26Z Xach: the value of CL:*PACKAGE*, that is :)
2015-08-16T03:40:44Z Lokathor: so if i were making an IRC bot, for example, named MonopBot, then I'd probably put all my stuff in a "monop" package in my monop.cl file
2015-08-16T03:41:44Z Xach: Lokathor: that's one way to structure it, but there are a lot of options. sometimes a project is split into smaller packages that contribute to a "main" package of some sort.
2015-08-16T03:41:53Z Xach: but doing it all in a single package is also not uncommon
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2015-08-16T03:42:26Z phf: jeaye: you need the longer answer to specifically solve your problem
2015-08-16T03:42:31Z jeaye: Nice, got it working after specifying a DEFPACKAGE and the appropriate :use
2015-08-16T03:42:46Z Xach: SBCL's code is in many different packages, but Clozure CL is mostly (totally?) in a package named CCL, for example
2015-08-16T03:43:38Z jeaye: phf, Xach: Thanks again.
2015-08-16T03:43:45Z Xach lives to serve
2015-08-16T03:44:25Z phf: valar dohaeris
2015-08-16T03:44:51Z jeaye: heh
2015-08-16T03:45:00Z jeaye: Odd that CL lacks a standard curry function.
2015-08-16T03:45:45Z Xach: jeaye: I think that benefits more in an environment without arguments as complicated as CL functions sometimes are.
2015-08-16T03:45:55Z Xach: But, I don't know for sure. Just a guess.
2015-08-16T03:46:58Z Lokathor: jeaye, CL also makes passing around functions a little weird compared to other langs because the funciton namespace and the variable namespace are seperate
2015-08-16T03:47:16Z jeaye: Right.
2015-08-16T03:49:13Z phf: Xach: you're right, it's called package marker
2015-08-16T03:49:52Z jeaye: I haven't yet found a lisp that does just what I want: right mixture of immutability and FP while still having things like return statements and without some crazy jvm dependency.
2015-08-16T03:49:54Z Xach: thanks for checking. my confidence level was 37%
2015-08-16T03:50:15Z Xach: jeaye: time to make your own! that is the traditional reaction
2015-08-16T03:50:38Z jeaye: Xach: https://github.com/jeaye/jank
2015-08-16T03:50:48Z Xach: jeaye: that usually ends in coming back to an established one after a while, but if nobody made their own, there would be no progress!
2015-08-16T03:51:25Z Xach: loke`: You should write up your clojurescript/cl setup sometime
2015-08-16T03:51:31Z jeaye: Been working on it for several months. Doing my time in CL, Clojure, and the like to learn more about how each one does things though.
2015-08-16T03:52:12Z Xach is reminded of the quip: "only fools and geniuses insist on implementing their own languages, and you can never tell which is which until afterwards."
2015-08-16T03:52:40Z jeaye: Who says one can't be both?
2015-08-16T03:53:02Z Xach eyes drmeister 
2015-08-16T03:54:15Z Lokathor: jeaye, if you want strong static types and immutability, sounds like you might want haskell
2015-08-16T03:54:39Z jeaye: Lokathor: I also want an s-expr based syntax.
2015-08-16T03:55:16Z jeaye: Also, I'm totally ok with functional impurity, as long as it's explicit (a la clojure).
2015-08-16T03:55:37Z Lokathor: s-expressions aren't very haskellish, ya got me there
2015-08-16T03:56:41Z jeaye: Quite the contrary, Haskell's syntax is, to me, fiendish.
2015-08-16T03:57:55Z jeaye: Alas, this is coming from someone who writes C++ for a living.
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2015-08-16T04:00:01Z jeaye: Hence jank's tendencies toward trait-based generics (a la templates) and strong, static typing.
2015-08-16T04:00:26Z Lokathor: i'm all for parametric polymorphism when possible
2015-08-16T04:01:11Z jeaye: mmhmm
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2015-08-16T04:07:16Z rlewis: jeaye what makes you say functional impurity is explicit in clojure?
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2015-08-16T04:16:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-16T04:16:55Z Lokathor: bonan tagon
2015-08-16T04:17:22Z rlewis: jeaye mutability is explicit, but you can perform IO wherever you wish
2015-08-16T04:17:24Z jeaye: rlewis: Was trying to find the exact Rich Hickey quote, but I've failed; it must've been in a video talk.
2015-08-16T04:18:25Z Lokathor: jeaye, if you can get a well working lisp with lazyness that'd be pretty impressive (and maybe impossible because it'd be contrary to the lisp standard?)
2015-08-16T04:18:38Z Lokathor: well, the common lisp standard at least i suppose
2015-08-16T04:18:56Z jeaye: rlewis: Correct. Still, in some aspects, constructs like DO are also flags about side effects.
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2015-08-16T04:19:42Z jeaye: rlewis: But, primarily, the atomic mutation and transactional approach to exchanges makes things pretty explicit.
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2015-08-16T04:20:35Z kristof: I'm not enamored with laziness. All those thunks incur a cost.
2015-08-16T04:20:51Z jeaye: Lokathor: Laziness, in some regard, is really as ass to work with sometimes. My main goal is the strong, static typing, RAII, and type-based metaprogramming.
2015-08-16T04:21:27Z rlewis: again, just the mutation. you can have IO everywhere, including where having it is an error (STM transaction)
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2015-08-16T04:21:59Z jeaye: rlewis: Agreed.
2015-08-16T04:24:01Z jeaye: Lokathor: Being able to partially/fully specialize, enable/disable based on compile-time type traits, and allow for intricate non-type parameters in parametric polymorphism would, I think, hit a spot where not many lisps (that I know of) have targeted.
2015-08-16T04:24:26Z Lokathor: well i'm not really familiar with lisps X3
2015-08-16T04:24:56Z rme: I don't think I even understand what that means.
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2015-08-16T04:25:22Z Lokathor: I've heard of CL for years, particularly the macro system, and i'm familiar a little with scheme from the early SCIP chapters, and that's it for me
2015-08-16T04:25:39Z Lokathor: only started reading PCL earlier this week
2015-08-16T04:26:11Z jeaye: Ah
2015-08-16T04:28:03Z Lokathor: but I've also dabbled a bit in Haskell and looked at Erlang just a hair. between the three I'd say I favor Haskell the most, though i've sympathy for people who dislike the operator jumble haskell can turn into
2015-08-16T04:30:21Z jeaye: rme: A lot of C++ nomenclature.
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2015-08-16T04:32:38Z rme: That would explain it.  I certainly have not kept up with C++.
2015-08-16T04:33:12Z White_Flame: jeaye: I find function dispatch to be one of the least meaningful areas of language design anyway
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2015-08-16T04:33:50Z White_Flame: better to think of higher abstractions, declarativeness, separating code bodies from how they're invoked, being able to chain them together quickly instead of manually call chaining, etc
2015-08-16T04:35:02Z jeaye: You're mentioning function dispatch with regard to the parametric polymorphism I was discussing?
2015-08-16T04:35:23Z White_Flame: many of those terms seemed related to function dispatch
2015-08-16T04:35:32Z jeaye: In a _functional_ language, how functions work is rather meaningful.
2015-08-16T04:35:48Z Lokathor: from what i know of lisp, lots of compile time checking and static stuff kinda goes against "the point" of why you'd pick lisp. A lot of the lisp advantages seem to be with the dynamic dispatch and being able to add to (or debug) an already running system without needing to shut it down.
2015-08-16T04:35:50Z jeaye: How they can be decorated, called, extended, etc.
2015-08-16T04:36:43Z jeaye: Lokathor: That's certainly among the reasons why many lispers will not appreciate jank.
2015-08-16T04:37:04Z Lokathor: sounds janky
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2015-08-16T04:37:06Z Lokathor: :3c
2015-08-16T04:37:09Z jeaye: ^_^
2015-08-16T04:37:25Z White_Flame: Lokathor: the two aren't particularly incompatible
2015-08-16T04:37:44Z White_Flame: it's just that the compiler approaches tend to favor one over the other
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2015-08-16T04:40:39Z jeaye: White_Flame: I think that convenient functional composition, currying, and the like are still entirely possible with a stronger type system in place.
2015-08-16T04:41:09Z jeaye: Fortunately, I'm not the only one who has thought so; after all there are projects like Typed Racket.
2015-08-16T04:41:11Z White_Flame: sure, there's nothing preventing that
2015-08-16T04:41:19Z White_Flame: it's a matter of preference
2015-08-16T04:43:23Z jeaye: Of course. I'm taking great care, actually, not calling jank a lisp at all, lest it misrepresent lisps and/or my understanding of lisps. You'll find no mention of lisp in the readme, but it will feel very lispy when you see the examples.
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2015-08-16T04:47:02Z White_Flame: yeah, I tend to use Lisp as a stepping stone into higher abstraction levels.  I don't really care about the boundary arguments of the base language itself
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2015-08-16T04:47:36Z jeaye: Fair.
2015-08-16T04:48:11Z White_Flame: any time I build up new ways of doing things, it tends not to be very Lisp-like either :)
2015-08-16T04:50:17Z |3b|: beach: what is the status of type inference in cleavir?
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2015-08-16T04:57:48Z beach: |3b|: A simple version is imminent.
2015-08-16T04:57:57Z beach: |3b|: Why do you ask?
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2015-08-16T05:03:43Z |3b|: beach: just curious at this point, but at some point i plan to write a compiler to spir-v, and i don't really like the type inference code i wrote
2015-08-16T05:04:05Z beach: I see.
2015-08-16T05:04:49Z beach: Cleavir type inference works on the level of the HIR instruction graph, so if you want to take advantage of it, you need to use the chain Source -> AST -> HIR
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2015-08-16T05:05:13Z beach: As opposed to say the Baker type inferencer which works on source code.
2015-08-16T05:06:30Z |3b|: the source->ast->hir parts are probably better than what i have as well, so that probably wouldn't be a problem :)
2015-08-16T05:06:53Z beach: OK.  I just wanted to make sure.  I don't know about spir-v.
2015-08-16T05:07:08Z wooden: if i want parametric polymorphism on a method with CLOS, should i do something like (defgeneric myfunc (list) ...) and then have each specialized method consume as many items of the list as it requires?
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2015-08-16T05:09:04Z beach: wooden: parametric polymorphism doesn't make much sense in Common Lisp.  Perhaps if you explain what it is that you want to do, it might be easier to figure out how to help.
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2015-08-16T05:09:37Z |3b|: beach: yeah, i don't know much of the details yet either, but i assume it will be similar to the shader languages it was designed for
2015-08-16T05:09:53Z |3b|: which are what i'm currently compiling to
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2015-08-16T05:12:55Z wooden: beach: i have a method on a base class that takes one argument, but on a subclass i need it to take two arguments.
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2015-08-16T05:15:17Z beach: wooden: That doesn't sound much like parametric polymorphism.  Anyway, you don't have many options then.  You can use &OPTIONAL.  If you use a list, then you can't specialize on the class of the elements in it.
2015-08-16T05:16:01Z wooden: beach: what does it sound like?
2015-08-16T05:16:15Z beach: Nothing that I have a term for.
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2015-08-16T05:32:13Z Guthur: wooden: possibly some sort of pattern matching?
2015-08-16T05:32:35Z Guthur: unfortunately there is nothing in the CL standard for that
2015-08-16T05:32:46Z Guthur: there maybe a lib though
2015-08-16T05:32:55Z Guthur: i think pjb has one
2015-08-16T05:34:53Z Bike: optima's good.
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2015-08-16T05:40:19Z jeaye: How can I make this return an empty string or the next string in levels? http://dpaste.com/1VS1PY6
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2015-08-16T05:41:17Z MikeUnt: hi
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2015-08-16T05:42:42Z Bike: jeaye: is levels just a list?
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2015-08-16T05:42:59Z jeaye: Bike: yep, and level is just a string
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2015-08-16T05:43:23Z MikeUnt: is lisp used on the web?
2015-08-16T05:43:47Z Bike: i'd do (defun next-level (levels level) (or (second (member level levels :test #'string=)) ""))
2015-08-16T05:43:50Z Bike: clhs member
2015-08-16T05:43:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
2015-08-16T05:44:12Z Bike: as you can see, it returns the tail of the list starting with the element, so eg (member 4 '(1 2 4 6 8)) => (4 6 8)
2015-08-16T05:44:40Z Bike: then you just return the second element of that tail to get the next one, or if there isn't one SECOND returns NIL, so you return "" instead
2015-08-16T05:45:33Z jeaye: Ah, makes sense.
2015-08-16T05:45:45Z jeaye: Bike: Why isn't the current implementation valid?
2015-08-16T05:45:57Z Bike: Does it not work?
2015-08-16T05:46:11Z Bike: If not, I'd guess it's because POSITION compares things with EQL by default.
2015-08-16T05:46:15Z jeaye: The LET binding spec (POSITION LEVEL LEVELS) is malformed.
2015-08-16T05:46:25Z Bike: Oh. Yeah.
2015-08-16T05:46:33Z jeaye: Ah. I'll specify :test
2015-08-16T05:46:41Z Bike: LET takes a whole set of bindings, you meant (let ((p (position level levels))) ...).
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2015-08-16T05:47:44Z jeaye: Right you are.
2015-08-16T05:47:50Z Lokathor: so from what i'm reading, you usually declare all your packages outside of your main source files in a special file, and then source files just declare what package they're inside of at the top?
2015-08-16T05:48:24Z Bike: usually.
2015-08-16T05:48:31Z H4ns: Lokathor: the "one package per file" style is also pretty popular.
2015-08-16T05:48:34Z Bike: it's not required or anything, just a convention.
2015-08-16T05:48:58Z H4ns: Lokathor: every file gets its own package which is defined at the top of that file.
2015-08-16T05:49:08Z White_Flame: it can really help if you have things like read-time macros which refer to package symbols
2015-08-16T05:49:32Z H4ns: "it"?
2015-08-16T05:49:32Z White_Flame: to have everything already declared by the time hit hits your "real" source files
2015-08-16T05:49:41Z White_Flame: package.lisp up front
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2015-08-16T05:50:06Z Lokathor: Practical Common Lisp makes the package system seem even more complex than macros
2015-08-16T05:50:13Z Lokathor: perhaps it's just a badly written chapter compared to the rest
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2015-08-16T05:50:32Z White_Flame: both are very different concepts than what you get in most other common langauges
2015-08-16T05:51:15Z H4ns: Lokathor: the package system is confusing until you've fully understood it, then it is very simple.  unfortunately, nobody seems to have written a text that really helps shortening the "understanding" phase
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2015-08-16T05:51:56Z Lokathor: related: does common lisp provide a "main method" sort of thing where you can compile a bunch of files into a stand-alone executable that starts execution at a particular funciton?
2015-08-16T05:52:18Z White_Flame: usually when you call the function which builds the executable, you tell it which function to invoke on startup
2015-08-16T05:53:17Z Lokathor: ah, where might one learn about that compiling function? or is it implementation specific?
2015-08-16T05:53:24Z White_Flame: implementation specific
2015-08-16T05:53:51Z Lokathor: drat. oh well, i don't really plan to ever distribute my lisp stuff
2015-08-16T05:54:06Z White_Flame: there's likely also compatibility libraries to do the same
2015-08-16T05:54:48Z MikeUnterberg: 8================================================================Ð
2015-08-16T05:54:49Z MikeUnterberg: ^actual size =D
2015-08-16T05:55:50Z phadthai: Lokathor: in case those could help with the concept of packages... http://cvs.pulsar-zone.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/mmondor/mmsoftware/cl/test/vsymbol.lisp?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain  and  http://cvs.pulsar-zone.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/mmondor/mmsoftware/cl/test/safe-eval.lisp?rev=1.2;content-type=text%2Fplain  the first one reproduces more simply how symbols work (and you could consider a package as being a hash table of symbols, ...
2015-08-16T05:55:56Z phadthai: ... basically); and the second uses the advantage that packages and symbols are first-class objects (directly manipulable programmaticaly) in Lisp, to create a minimal controlled evaluation environment
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2015-08-16T05:58:51Z Lokathor: ah, so you could setup a sandbox to evaluate within
2015-08-16T05:59:23Z White_Flame: at the symbol level
2015-08-16T05:59:36Z White_Flame: well, at the symbol-name level
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2015-08-16T06:00:41Z Lokathor: so, you could, perhaps, allow several users to use the same REPL at the same time by sticking all the stuff they do in namespaces named after their nicknames before you pass it to the actual REPL
2015-08-16T06:01:46Z phadthai: Lokathor: I remember that some have envisionned multiuser Lisp images, but it's not personally something I've actually seen in real use
2015-08-16T06:02:06Z phadthai: but yes it's theoretically feasible with a credentials system as part of the system
2015-08-16T06:03:16Z phadthai: packages and symbols could have permissions, and users could have credentials etc
2015-08-16T06:03:24Z H4ns: Lokathor: anyone can refer to any symbol in any package using the :: syntax.  packages do not provide any isolation beyond naming.
2015-08-16T06:03:47Z Lokathor: yeah it'd have to be more like a toy not really a serious thing
2015-08-16T06:04:32Z phadthai: oh yes and as H4ns said packages are not enough to prevent calling non-exported functions; the evaluation and/or compilation paths also have to be modified to prevent that if necessary
2015-08-16T06:05:07Z phadthai: (that safe-eval example does that too)
2015-08-16T06:06:31Z White_Flame: Lokathor: basically, anything on the REPL gets evaluated into whatever the current *package* is
2015-08-16T06:06:57Z White_Flame: but if some repl user starts loading files, those files usually declare what package they're in anyway, so it's not really sandboxed
2015-08-16T06:07:18Z jeaye: Bike: I've tried you approach, porting it to a more nested list, but I'm running into a type error: http://dpaste.com/2K4AHPC
2015-08-16T06:07:32Z jeaye: Bike: Any tips for how to resolve this?
2015-08-16T06:07:33Z Lokathor: true, you'd have to limit that sort of thing if you wanted it to be sandboxed very well
2015-08-16T06:07:40Z White_Flame: Also, the Lisp machines allowed people to remote in and have their own session, but nothing prevents them from mucking with object state from other sessions
2015-08-16T06:07:44Z phadthai: and whenever you enter a REPL command which includes a new symbol, the reader imports it, by default in the cl-user package
2015-08-16T06:08:07Z Bike: jeaye: member :key #'first :test #'string= maybe
2015-08-16T06:08:11Z White_Flame: phadthai: right, if it was CL-USER-PHADTHAI package or something, then it would be slightly more sandboxed
2015-08-16T06:08:18Z phadthai: (that safe-eval does something similar using a safe-user package)
2015-08-16T06:08:18Z White_Flame: in terms of multiple users
2015-08-16T06:08:24Z jeaye: Bike: As opposed to member-if?
2015-08-16T06:08:59Z Bike: yes.
2015-08-16T06:09:03Z Bike: but, uh, yours works for me, actually.
2015-08-16T06:09:04Z phadthai: (here comes the importance of #'<name> at the REPL to reference possibly unexisting symbols, like as an argument to APROPOS)
2015-08-16T06:09:25Z phadthai: err '#:<name> :)
2015-08-16T06:09:29Z Bike: (next-level '(("l1" "") ("l2" "foo")) "l1") => ("l2" "foo")
2015-08-16T06:09:30Z jeaye: Bike: >.<
2015-08-16T06:10:39Z jeaye: Hm, mine works in the repl, too. Looks like I'm fucking up elsewhere then.
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2015-08-16T06:14:11Z jeaye: Had to return the first of all that, since I only want the "l2"
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2015-08-16T06:15:40Z Bike: the member instead of member-if does essentially the same thing, it's just a bit simpler
2015-08-16T06:16:07Z jeaye: Agreed. I'll switch to it.
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2015-08-16T07:35:22Z nguondguod: how do I get common lisp on Debian 8? there is no clisp packet?!
2015-08-16T07:37:46Z madrik: nguondguod: there is sbcl, though.
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2015-08-16T07:39:14Z nguondguod: madrik: so I can just use that
2015-08-16T07:39:18Z nguondguod: ?
2015-08-16T07:39:57Z nguondguod: madrik: do you have to compile clisp then yourself, if you want it?
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2015-08-16T07:46:50Z Guthur: nguondguod: I don't believe clisp gets much attention in terms of development, so something like SBCL or CCL would often times be recommend before clisp
2015-08-16T07:48:04Z Guthur: if you are just starting out then don't really worry about it too much at this stage
2015-08-16T07:48:36Z Guthur: and i can make things easy for you by choosing...Just install SBCL from the debian repo and be done
2015-08-16T07:49:12Z Guthur: then install quicklisp https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-08-16T07:49:26Z nguondguod: already have :)
2015-08-16T07:49:28Z Guthur: that's a manual process but relatively simple
2015-08-16T07:49:53Z nguondguod: I followed the stumpwm installation guide
2015-08-16T07:50:04Z nguondguod: installing xorg as we speak
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2015-08-16T08:08:37Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-16T08:08:37Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/56a89e9b53e74d51b99248e4aacd4cc4d5dc8154 fixes the problem you reported, your turn ;-)
2015-08-16T08:09:10Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dim: I'm ECL maintainer :D ;)
2015-08-16T08:09:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-16T08:09:14Z jackdaniel: not clisp
2015-08-16T08:11:03Z flip214: jackdaniel: ^^ that's not in the memo...
2015-08-16T08:11:15Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dim: not clisp
2015-08-16T08:11:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-16T08:11:18Z jackdaniel: flip214: thanks
2015-08-16T08:11:23Z flip214: you're welcome!
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2015-08-16T08:12:25Z flip214: minion: memo for flip214: ping
2015-08-16T08:12:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell flip214 when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-16T08:12:25Z minion: flip214, memo from flip214: ping
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2015-08-16T08:13:13Z flip214: hmmm, that's not strictly correct.... I didn't say anything after the "Remembered..." message, so why is that delivered? ;)
2015-08-16T08:13:35Z flip214: minion: memo for minion: memo for minion: memo for minion: memo for minion: memo for minion: memo for minion: ping
2015-08-16T08:13:35Z minion: Buzz off.
2015-08-16T08:13:38Z flip214: ;)
2015-08-16T08:13:54Z flip214: nice to see that the old traditions are still held high ;P
2015-08-16T08:14:10Z flip214: minion: car
2015-08-16T08:14:10Z minion: car: CAR and CDR are excellent mnemonics, if only because they (i) are short in length; (ii) are of the same length; (iii) are lexically similar but moderately distinguishable; (iv) have convenient pronunciation; (v) are naturally extendable (e.g., CAAR/CDAR/CDDR, which is useful for top-level hacks). They're also not completely arbitrary, and they're got a history
2015-08-16T08:14:20Z flip214: minion: #.
2015-08-16T08:14:21Z minion: : No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/
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2015-08-16T08:32:13Z jackdaniel: this is CL killing feature - retry hooks :D
2015-08-16T08:33:08Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for dim: anyway, pgloader seems to load fine on mine ecl instance (after disabling some fancy private [ and ] character macros, but nvm that :p) – as mentioned, I have no proper postgres installation and no time to invest to test pgloader as it should be. If you test it, let me know if it works ok :) (or not)
2015-08-16T08:33:08Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-16T08:49:53Z beach: G'day everyone.
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2015-08-16T08:50:02Z oleo: morning
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2015-08-16T08:50:52Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-16T09:31:42Z beach: jackdaniel: For lambda lists, I think an error should be signaled if there is duplicate variables among the required parameters, but not for the others.
2015-08-16T09:32:09Z beach: s/is/are/
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2015-08-16T09:35:44Z beach: SBCL signals an error for this one: (defun ff (&optional (x 10) (x x)) x)
2015-08-16T09:36:33Z jackdaniel: what would be a proper usecase for duplicated parameters in lambda list?
2015-08-16T09:36:44Z jackdaniel is 1/2-online – making pancakes
2015-08-16T09:37:27Z oleo: defun*
2015-08-16T09:37:40Z beach: I would have to think about that.  But since the scope of parameters in a lambda list is all the preceding parameters, it makes sense to allow it.
2015-08-16T09:37:51Z beach: So it works sort of like LET*.
2015-08-16T09:38:07Z oleo: jup
2015-08-16T09:38:23Z jackdaniel: ok, then it shouldn't be an error
2015-08-16T09:38:28Z beach: For the required parameters, I can accept an error, because there is no form there that can refer to previous parameters.
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2015-08-16T09:39:26Z beach: SBCL does not signal an error for duplicate variables in LET*.
2015-08-16T09:40:08Z beach: (let* ((x 10) (x (1+ x))) x) is not an error in SBCL.
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2015-08-16T09:42:09Z beach: HAH! SBCL accepts (defun ff (x &aux (x (1+ x))) x)
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2015-08-16T09:43:15Z beach: But not (defun ff (x &optional (x (1+ x))) x)
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2015-08-16T09:44:13Z jackdaniel: I think that if lambda-list is described in terms of let*, then duplicated variables should signal style warning there
2015-08-16T09:45:02Z beach: Maybe so.
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2015-08-16T09:52:59Z gargaml: hi
2015-08-16T09:53:35Z gargaml: I'm still learning about subtleties of the backquote especially when they are nested
2015-08-16T09:54:21Z beach: Luckily, you don't need nested backquotes that often.
2015-08-16T09:54:21Z gargaml: and I'd like to know why we get different results for this expression (let ((x 2)) `(x y `(,,x)))
2015-08-16T09:55:01Z gargaml: clisp gives (x y (list 2)) so it's completely evaluated
2015-08-16T09:55:25Z gargaml: and sbcl gives (X Y `(,2))
2015-08-16T09:55:44Z gargaml: is it just a pretty printing difference or is there something else ?
2015-08-16T09:56:00Z beach: I think they are both valid.
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2015-08-16T09:56:24Z gargaml: beach: yes, but with macros generating macros, it comes pretty fast (in different books)
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2015-08-16T09:56:42Z beach: The spec doesn't say how ` and , are represented.
2015-08-16T09:56:59Z gargaml: because the second one gives the impression that the order of evaluation is different
2015-08-16T09:57:21Z gargaml: and the spec gives the order of evaluation (innermost first)
2015-08-16T09:57:42Z beach: What makes you think the order of evaluation is different?
2015-08-16T09:58:51Z gargaml: the fact that we can still see the backquote inside the returned value
2015-08-16T09:59:01Z gargaml: isn't it
2015-08-16T09:59:15Z gargaml: weird ?
2015-08-16T09:59:48Z beach: An implementation is allowed to represent `(,x) as (list x) which seems to be what CLISP is doing.
2015-08-16T10:00:02Z gargaml: or is it because the internal representation is different than cons expression that it keeps the backquote ?
2015-08-16T10:00:18Z beach: Right.
2015-08-16T10:00:37Z beach: SBCL is using a more sophisticated representation, so that it can distinguish the two.
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2015-08-16T10:01:28Z gargaml: ok, thank you :-)
2015-08-16T10:01:35Z beach: Anytime.
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2015-08-16T10:10:34Z jackdaniel: ,@,@bah
2015-08-16T10:10:58Z jackdaniel: ,@(,@bah) that is
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2015-08-16T10:17:57Z rritoch: Hi, I just want to announce that I have created a fork of ABCL @ https://github.com/rritoch/jrelisp/ which includes a number of advancements. 1. Full maven integration, 2. Uberjar support, 3. Only fails 3 of the ansi-tests
2015-08-16T10:18:25Z jackdaniel: why fork?
2015-08-16T10:18:36Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Because mark is a dick
2015-08-16T10:18:58Z rritoch: He refuses to allow full maven integration, or uberjar support, and they don't care about the test failures.
2015-08-16T10:19:28Z rritoch: This version is more targeted for the enterprise community.
2015-08-16T10:19:50Z rritoch: But it has a ways to go before it's ready for serious grid computing.
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2015-08-16T10:20:30Z rritoch: If anyone asks though, my official reason for forking is that Mark is a dick.
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2015-08-16T10:26:21Z rritoch: Either way, if anyone knows developers of other java lisps (like jlisp) please send them my way. I'd like to collaborate an an enterprise API. I started a small API framework @ https://github.com/rritoch/clapi which is grossly incomplete.
2015-08-16T10:26:32Z rritoch: an an = on an
2015-08-16T10:27:15Z rritoch: But if all java lisp implementions share a common API than they become swappable in enterprise apps, which is a good feature to have.
2015-08-16T10:30:02Z antoszka: rritoch: Have you spoken to Mark in person?
2015-08-16T10:31:12Z rritoch: antoszka: No I have not, it is just the conclusion I have come to based on his hostility towards utilizing abcl from maven and in single-jar applications (uberjar).
2015-08-16T10:32:32Z rritoch: antoszka: Let me direct you to >> https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2015-August/003556.html
2015-08-16T10:32:57Z rritoch: Where you can see he's trying to keep a lock-and-key on loading lisp from the classloader
2015-08-16T10:33:41Z antoszka: Well, speak to him before calling him "a dick". Also, I don't think this will get you very far in the community.
2015-08-16T10:33:47Z antoszka: Just reading up the thread.
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2015-08-16T10:34:54Z rritoch: Anyhow, at some point I'm going to move that feature OUT of the system package so there will be no dispute about it's use. It is a critical feature for most java based lisp applications.
2015-08-16T10:35:48Z rritoch: I've considered allowing ClassLoader's as devices, but I  can't tell if that is a violation of the ansi-standard or not.
2015-08-16T10:36:28Z |3b|: not wanting users to use implementation internals is "archaic"?
2015-08-16T10:36:30Z rritoch: If devices need to be serializable to/from strings, than there's no way it would be possible.
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2015-08-16T10:37:37Z |3b|: "yay, we can't change internals because users depend on some unintended behavior, now we have to maintain the old broken version in addition to the correct one with a new name"
2015-08-16T10:37:54Z rritoch: I was specifically referring to his attitude towards progress, as he rejects any feature that could facilitate single-jar applications or integration with modern applications. From what I've heard it wants it a one way street, where ABCL can consume everything, but provides nothing.
2015-08-16T10:38:25Z |3b|: linking to you complaining about his attitude isn't very good evidence of said attitude then
2015-08-16T10:39:06Z |3b| reads "do X", "no, don't do X, it isn't a supported API", "flame on"
2015-08-16T10:39:30Z |3b|: perhaps a better response would have been to ask what the supported API is, or suggest that having one would be nice
2015-08-16T10:39:39Z rritoch: The conversations where he outwardly refused to allow consuming ABCL from maven applications I wasn't privvy to.
2015-08-16T10:39:45Z rritoch: lol
2015-08-16T10:39:50Z rritoch: Because there is no supported API
2015-08-16T10:40:18Z rritoch: The system function IS the only api for what that developer needed to do.
2015-08-16T10:40:45Z |3b|: right, and being polite might get that changed
2015-08-16T10:41:34Z rritoch: I tried polite, it didn't work, and I don't think his response was very polite. He certainly didn't offer any reasonable alternatives.
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2015-08-16T10:42:18Z rritoch: I passed over 25 tests that they were failing, do you think they included a single patch of my work?
2015-08-16T10:43:19Z rritoch: As far as I can tell, mark is the one that rejected every single one, even though at least one of the other developers on their team wanted the new features.
2015-08-16T10:43:42Z rritoch: Open-source isn't a dictatorship
2015-08-16T10:43:56Z rritoch: That's why I forked.
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2015-08-16T10:45:15Z rritoch: I'll admit outright though, I was a dick, and I'm still being a dick, but these are features that many people need and/or want.
2015-08-16T10:45:16Z jackdaniel: fwiw all your paths were piggybacking on dubios patch which wasn't accepted at first
2015-08-16T10:46:05Z rritoch: jackdaniel: Lol, what a joke! They could have implemented a usable RandomState without all of my other patches.
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2015-08-16T10:46:47Z rritoch: Either way, mark rejected the patch because he doesn't want abcl being used from maven applications.
2015-08-16T10:47:03Z jackdaniel: so you say, that you dump trash with one valuable item and expect others to filter this one valuable item
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2015-08-16T10:47:39Z jackdaniel is doing peach cake, afk
2015-08-16T10:48:53Z rritoch: I don't expect anything, Mark is the only person on the ABCL team that I have issue with, but he apparently runs the team as a dictator which is doing nothing more than trying to stand in the way of progress.
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2015-08-16T10:50:47Z rritoch: jackdaniel: I also made the system MUCH faster by  various improvements, so at the end of the day the fork is better than the original. My hope is that they get their act together and get their sytem up to modern standards, but if they don't than people will end up using my fork because its faster and does what they need it to do.
2015-08-16T10:52:47Z rritoch: I'm also welcoming contributors, but certainly not expecting them because I'm sure most people would prefer to scratch their eyes out than deal with my attitude.
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2015-08-16T11:01:21Z Guthur: rritoch: whoa, that's quite a bit of vitriol
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2015-08-16T11:09:46Z rritoch: Anyhow, passing the remaining tests is going to be far from enjoyable. I need to add type checking on call-next-method, and handle the printing of recursions. I've also noted a few intermittant failures which eventually need to be dealt with. Not likely a race condition because this is single threaded.
2015-08-16T11:10:33Z rritoch: My goal is to get all tests passing and then lock down the compiler so compilation fails if any tests fail.
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2015-08-16T13:18:10Z kronole: Will reading SICP as a beginner give me an edge over programmers who haven't read it?
2015-08-16T13:18:57Z jackdaniel: it is very good book - will make you a better programmer. others might read other good books, so, well – not really
2015-08-16T13:19:17Z pjb: kronole: definitely.
2015-08-16T13:19:56Z pjb: kronole: the secret is: anything will give you an edge over programmers, most of them can't even program fizzbuzz.  Can you program fizzbuzz?
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2015-08-16T13:20:18Z p_l: hell, you don't need to program fizzbuzz, you need to be able to figure the algorithm and I'd pass you
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2015-08-16T13:20:27Z p_l: ... most never get to that test during interviews
2015-08-16T13:20:36Z pjb: write a sequence of numbers from 1 to 100, only for every multiple of 3, write fizz, and for every multiple of 5, write buzz. (multiples of 15 get fizzbuzz).
2015-08-16T13:21:32Z kronole: What's the difference between an algorithm and a program?
2015-08-16T13:22:41Z pjb: jeaye: there's liskell.
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2015-08-16T13:23:50Z jeaye: Heh, neat.
2015-08-16T13:26:41Z jeaye: pjb: If I implement that, will you employ me?
2015-08-16T13:26:50Z jeaye: :D
2015-08-16T13:26:52Z pjb: It is already implemented.
2015-08-16T13:27:01Z pjb: It's for your haskell in sexp own pleasure.
2015-08-16T13:27:16Z jeaye: pjb: Ah, I meant the fizzbuzz.
2015-08-16T13:27:41Z pjb: oh right. If I had to hire somebody, I'd definitely try this test :-)
2015-08-16T13:27:50Z pjb: fizzbuzz comparison: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153774
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2015-08-16T13:28:40Z jeaye: heh
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2015-08-16T13:29:12Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-08-16T13:29:21Z pjb: H4ns: what's confusing with the package system? A hask table where you _put_ symbols in, and _get_ symbols from, both using INTERN. What else is there to understand?
2015-08-16T13:29:24Z jeaye: Currently migrating from a career in systems-level C++ development to something hopefully lispy, but certainly functional.
2015-08-16T13:29:26Z jackdaniel: using 3 languages to solve a problem isn't that good idea pjb! You use common-lisp, loop and format! ;)
2015-08-16T13:29:29Z jackdaniel: o/ beach
2015-08-16T13:29:44Z jeaye: o/ beach
2015-08-16T13:30:00Z pjb: jackdaniel: that's the point of lisp: define some DSL and use them to express the problem in terms of your domain.
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2015-08-16T13:30:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: printing and looping are clearly two domains of the fuzzbizz problem.
2015-08-16T13:30:55Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-08-16T13:32:59Z pjb: phadthai: just launch a slime server and let multiple user connect to the same lisp image ;-)
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2015-08-16T13:37:05Z fe[nl]ix: hej beach :)
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2015-08-16T13:46:56Z beach: kronole: An algorithm is often written in something called pseudo code, where the exact representation of data might be partly swept under the rug.
2015-08-16T13:48:38Z beach: kronole: The difference between pseudo code and a real program is greater if the program is written in a language that requires a lot of boilerplate code, such as C or C++ or Java.  A program written in Common Lisp comes closer to traditional algorithmic notation.
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2015-08-16T13:49:46Z kronole: beach: Ah, okay. That makes sense.
2015-08-16T13:50:05Z kronole: What is boilerplate, though?
2015-08-16T13:50:30Z pjb: beach: What about (defun f (ignore ignore ignore) (declaim (ignore ignore)) 42) ? ;-)
2015-08-16T13:51:03Z beach: kronole: Check for instance the paper that starts on page 47 of the ELS2015 proceedings: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ELS2015.pdf
2015-08-16T13:51:53Z beach: kronole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilerplate_code
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2015-08-16T14:08:43Z jeaye: ,(member :k '('(:m) '(:k) '(:a)) :key #'first)
2015-08-16T14:08:49Z jeaye: What am I missing here?
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2015-08-16T14:10:04Z beach: The list you are using for comparison is ((quote (:m)) (quote (:a)) (quote (:k)) (quote (:m)))
2015-08-16T14:10:24Z beach: You probably wanted ((:m) (:k) (:a))
2015-08-16T14:10:38Z beach: At least that would have returned true.
2015-08-16T14:11:20Z beach: So you are comparing :k first to quote, then to quote, and finally to quote.
2015-08-16T14:11:33Z beach: All those tests yield false.
2015-08-16T14:11:57Z jeaye: beach: Without the quotes, the repl says the keywords are illegal function calls.
2015-08-16T14:12:14Z beach: *sigh*
2015-08-16T14:12:29Z jeaye: Your patience is appreciated.
2015-08-16T14:12:32Z Xach: jeaye: quotes are good if used in the right place.
2015-08-16T14:12:41Z Xach: jeaye: you need one at the start. the rest become data.
2015-08-16T14:12:44Z jeaye: Ah
2015-08-16T14:12:49Z beach: (member :k '((:m) (:k) (:a)) :key #'first)
2015-08-16T14:12:54Z jeaye: Right.
2015-08-16T14:13:16Z Xach: it helps to keep in mind what a form reads as, and separately what it evaluates to
2015-08-16T14:13:46Z jeaye: Yeah, makes sense, just the first time hitting this situation. Now I know, thanks.
2015-08-16T14:14:15Z beach: jeaye: I suggest you read a book on Common Lisp programming.  It will explain things like that.
2015-08-16T14:14:53Z jeaye: beach: I've working through multiple books currently, but nothing will stick unless I'm actually in the trenches.
2015-08-16T14:16:03Z jeaye: Er, s/ve/me/
2015-08-16T14:16:18Z jeaye: m...
2015-08-16T14:16:52Z madrik: jeaye: How many books at once?
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2015-08-16T14:17:39Z jeaye: madrik: Just two. I've worked through a good portion of Practical Lisp and I'm reading On Lisp on the side.
2015-08-16T14:18:10Z madrik: I take it that's a good order.
2015-08-16T14:18:59Z jeaye: Seems sane.
2015-08-16T14:19:04Z pjb: I think nobody ever made this one.  Lisp: full of quotes! '(member ':k '('(':m) '(':k) '(':a)) ':key '#'first)
2015-08-16T14:19:04Z beach: jeaye: On Lisp requires fairly good preexisting knowledge of Common Lisp.  I recommend you put that aside for the time being.
2015-08-16T14:19:48Z pjb: or even '#''first
2015-08-16T14:20:10Z beach: jeaye: For a second book, I recommend Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming by Peter Norvig.
2015-08-16T14:20:35Z madrik: beach: Winston and Horn?
2015-08-16T14:20:46Z beach: jeaye: Contrary to what the name suggests, it is not about AI programming at all.
2015-08-16T14:21:00Z beach: jeaye: Instead, it is a book about programming in Common Lisp.
2015-08-16T14:21:37Z beach: madrik: I have only read older editions, but I imagine it will be a first book as well, so an alternative to PCL.  No?
2015-08-16T14:21:39Z jeaye: beach: Thanks for the suggestion; I'm enjoying On Lisp so far, so I'll likely carry on until it's too dense. I also have Land of Lisp queued up.
2015-08-16T14:22:16Z Xach: winston & horn, 3rd edition has good clos info
2015-08-16T14:22:28Z beach: Then I must order it.
2015-08-16T14:22:31Z madrik: beach: From what I read of Winston and Horn, it is tilted toward theory and traditional AI, but does a fine job of the language.
2015-08-16T14:22:40Z beach: madrik: OK.
2015-08-16T14:22:46Z Xach: i did not keep my copy because i felt it covered the same ground as the other books i read
2015-08-16T14:23:00Z Xach: but if that was the only book nearby, i think it would have helpful info
2015-08-16T14:23:13Z beach: Good to know.
2015-08-16T14:23:20Z madrik: Xach: For deep mastery of CLOS, there's always Keene -> CLTL2 -> HyperSpec.
2015-08-16T14:23:34Z Xach: Why CLTL2?
2015-08-16T14:25:06Z madrik: I think EN shared his experience once. He tried to get into CLOS via Steele, found it impenetrable, read Keene, and came back to Steele to find it clear as day.
2015-08-16T14:25:22Z loke` has been casually browsing CLtl2 for the better part of 2 decades now. It's always been on the shelf near where I eat breakfast and I sometimes randomly open a page and read before going to work.
2015-08-16T14:25:44Z loke`: madrik: The CLOS section of CLtl2 was not written by Steele.
2015-08-16T14:25:58Z loke`: Check Steele's foreword to that section.
2015-08-16T14:26:06Z Xach: madrik: that message also says "i much prefer the ansi specification these days"
2015-08-16T14:26:10Z loke`: And I agree, it's much worse than the rest of the book.
2015-08-16T14:26:15Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3101324328261855%40naggum.no.html
2015-08-16T14:26:35Z Xach: AMOP is a good resource
2015-08-16T14:28:15Z madrik: Xach: Thanks. I grepped my local archive of the articles and found I had missed the phrasing.
2015-08-16T14:28:42Z Xach has a browser keyword search for e.g. http://xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=keene
2015-08-16T14:29:01Z madrik: In general, I find the "writing by committee" style unsavory.
2015-08-16T14:29:13Z madrik: There's the gretest chance for inconsistency.
2015-08-16T14:29:24Z madrik: E.g. CLRS
2015-08-16T14:31:37Z madrik: I once tried to learn number theory from CLRS...
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2015-08-16T14:38:04Z madrik: Regarding books, many years ago, I tried to learn from Touretzky's.  Maybe it was just me, but repeated tries couldn't see my go further than, say 8-9 chapters.
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2015-08-16T14:58:48Z beach: minion: What does CLRS stand for?
2015-08-16T14:58:49Z minion: Compositely Lippy Retinophoral Sweater
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2015-08-16T14:59:01Z madrik: seems legit
2015-08-16T14:59:37Z madrik: No wonder I couldn't grok it.
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2015-08-16T15:28:42Z hydan ordered http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/0262161362 hoping it would be better than Keene. and also because of MOP coverage
2015-08-16T15:29:33Z hydan is still waiting for the shipment to find out :/
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2015-08-16T15:31:02Z hydan: 0.
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2015-08-16T16:06:32Z loz: what is variable lookup order in cl? I'm confused with lexical bindings, dynamic bindings, global variables and packages imports
2015-08-16T16:07:27Z oleo: variable ?
2015-08-16T16:07:31Z oleo: you mean a symbol ?
2015-08-16T16:07:38Z oleo: symbols belong to packages.....
2015-08-16T16:07:44Z loz: ye, symbol which is not a symbol-macro)
2015-08-16T16:08:12Z oleo: unless they are from the keyword package which plays a role akin to the void space or vaccum.....
2015-08-16T16:08:18Z oleo: vacuum
2015-08-16T16:08:19Z loz: oleo: symbol without package designator, like X
2015-08-16T16:08:21Z oleo: lol
2015-08-16T16:08:41Z oleo: *current-package*
2015-08-16T16:08:44Z oleo: always!
2015-08-16T16:09:04Z oleo: but *current-package* may change ......
2015-08-16T16:09:05Z loz: em but in (let ((x 5)) x)  value if x is found in lexical binding
2015-08-16T16:09:25Z loz: no matter if there is value of x in package
2015-08-16T16:10:05Z oleo: the lexical binding shadows
2015-08-16T16:10:29Z oleo: ya
2015-08-16T16:10:46Z oleo: unless you already use what is there.....
2015-08-16T16:10:58Z oleo: (let ((x x)) x)
2015-08-16T16:11:09Z oleo: which is a no-brainer.....
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2015-08-16T16:11:30Z oleo: you don't need to rebind it.....unless you have a more sophisticated thing in your mind.....
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2015-08-16T16:21:41Z quasus: oleo, packages have nothing to do with variables/bindings
2015-08-16T16:22:05Z quasus: packages are like symbols' `surnames'
2015-08-16T16:22:39Z quasus: in some languages you may use a prefix to distinguish functions in your library
2015-08-16T16:23:00Z quasus: package is a generalization of such a prefix
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2015-08-16T16:27:23Z loz: quasus: so how does cl find variable binding?
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2015-08-16T16:30:12Z beach: loz: There is no order between different kinds of variables.  The order is determined by the usual evaluation rules of Common Lisp, usually left-to-right.
2015-08-16T16:30:28Z beach: loz: Lexical variables are typically in registers or on the stack.
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2015-08-16T16:30:46Z beach: loz: Special variables can have two techniques: deep and shallow binding.
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2015-08-16T16:32:21Z beach: loz: Deep binding means that there is some kind of binding stack that needs to be searched for the most recent binding.  Shallow binding means that there is a single place where the latest binding is found (typically a slot in the symbol) and the binding stack holds previous values.
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2015-08-16T16:36:48Z beach: loz: Packages play essentially no role during program execution, nor even during program compilation.  Packages are used by the reader to map a sequence of characters to a symbol.
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2015-08-16T16:47:52Z jfe: hi all. is the common lisp standard still updated periodically?
2015-08-16T16:47:58Z beach: No
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2015-08-16T16:49:16Z jfe: beach: has there been any talk of creating a new standard that includes things like threads?
2015-08-16T16:49:37Z beach: No, there is no attempt to create a new standard.
2015-08-16T16:50:12Z p_l: well, there was one, but it never got anywhere, and most people don't see any need except maybe standardizing on stuff provided by compat libraries
2015-08-16T16:50:12Z jfe: beach: any idea why?
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2015-08-16T16:50:30Z jfe: p_l: gotcha.
2015-08-16T16:50:31Z beach: jfe: Creating standards is expensive.  Nobody is willing to pay.
2015-08-16T16:50:56Z p_l: also, it takes time and is pretty slow
2015-08-16T16:51:00Z beach: jfe: Why do you need for threads (or anything else) to be in the standard.
2015-08-16T16:51:01Z beach: ?
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2015-08-16T16:51:14Z p_l: maybe, if we had something like IETF STD process setup...
2015-08-16T16:51:16Z jfe: beach: portability.
2015-08-16T16:51:26Z beach: jfe: Most people use languages that don't even have a standard, and most languages don't have most things in the standard anyway.
2015-08-16T16:51:41Z beach: jfe: As p_l says, you get that anyway.
2015-08-16T16:51:53Z beach: jfe: Use Bordeaux-treads.
2015-08-16T16:52:17Z p_l: possibly closest thing to updating the standard would be if we arranged an IETF-like process with ALU at the center
2015-08-16T16:52:32Z beach vanishes to cook dinner.
2015-08-16T16:54:52Z loke`: p_l: even if that were to happen, what good would it do?
2015-08-16T16:55:31Z p_l: consider it a more codified example of what essentially happened with ASDF - all implementations, even commercial ones, ship with ASDF
2015-08-16T16:55:59Z loke`: p_l: and it happened without a formal standardisation process. Imagine that :-)
2015-08-16T16:56:05Z p_l: loke`: yup
2015-08-16T16:56:19Z p_l: loke`: still, that's why I mentioned IETF-style approach, which is a bit cheaper and more flexible
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2015-08-16T16:58:16Z loke`: As for multithreading, bordeaux-threads could do with some improvement. I am maintaining myself a small library that adds CONDITION-BROADCAST to BT, but so fgar I only support SBCL, ABCL and CCL.
2015-08-16T16:58:41Z loke`: BT would also need a few more multithreading primitives, like CAS.
2015-08-16T16:59:11Z p_l: loke`: what I thought of was mainly a barely-formal forum to discuss such things so for example common APIs could be fleshed out
2015-08-16T16:59:45Z loke`: p_l: like a mailing list with representatives from all the CL vendors?
2015-08-16T17:00:20Z p_l: loke`: that's pretty much it, just add IETF-style document repository
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2015-08-16T17:01:18Z loke`: Is there interest in it? I mean, at the very least you'd need to find qualified people willing to work on it from at least 4 vendors (SBCL, CCL, LW and ACL)
2015-08-16T17:01:20Z p_l: you aren't "forced" to implement something that would be agreed upon as STD, but you could inform in *features* that you implement it and thus offer certain API or hooks for libraries to implement such things
2015-08-16T17:03:03Z loz: beach: so variable should contains its type - lexical or dynamic?
2015-08-16T17:04:24Z jackdaniel: such common API might be published as CDR
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2015-08-16T17:05:48Z p_l: jackdaniel: yes - I was thinking of CDR, but a bit more expanded
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2015-08-16T17:10:53Z fe[nl]ix: loke`: I would love to merge your patches if you convince somebody knowledgeable that they're good code
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2015-08-16T17:17:00Z jfe: speaking of merging… what are some major/popular CL libraries/projects?
2015-08-16T17:17:28Z fe[nl]ix: cl-ppcre, cffi, drakma
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2015-08-16T17:18:08Z p_l: hunchentoot
2015-08-16T17:18:13Z p_l: alexandria
2015-08-16T17:18:23Z p_l: bordaux-threads, cffi
2015-08-16T17:20:21Z jfe: thanks
2015-08-16T17:20:28Z fe[nl]ix: jfe: if you plan to contribute to a library because it's popular, I would advise you to rethink. dreams of glory are most often a poor motivator
2015-08-16T17:21:26Z jfe: fe[nl]ix: glory is not my motivator; nor is popularity. i’m just a CL noob and want to know what people are working on :)
2015-08-16T17:21:49Z p_l: jfe: a bunch of those libs rarely see updates because they are just that stable, afaik
2015-08-16T17:22:01Z p_l: especially cl-ppcre and alexandria, afaik
2015-08-16T17:22:36Z fe[nl]ix: jfe: a lot of people use CL on the server side
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2015-08-16T17:23:03Z fe[nl]ix: the only useable and well-documented GUI libraries are bundled with the commercial implementations
2015-08-16T17:27:29Z pjb: jfe: if the CL standard was updated periodically, I wouldn't use Common Lisp!
2015-08-16T17:29:36Z pjb: jfe: unless you're a big corporation that has the resources and manpower to rewrite everything each time Apple or Google decide they need to change the language needed to write programs on their platforms, my own software development process takes much more time.  Like, literally a LIFE time.  (I just hope my software works reach a somewhat meaningful state before I die).  Therefore I definitely DO NOT WANT to use a fucking language
2015-08-16T17:29:36Z pjb: whose definition changes every year, or even every ten years.
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2015-08-16T17:34:34Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: calm down, please
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2015-08-16T17:35:26Z p_l: that's why I am proposing "extension registry" rather than changing standard
2015-08-16T17:35:48Z fe[nl]ix: that's rather hard too
2015-08-16T17:36:11Z fe[nl]ix: unless there's a very good spec and test suite, one ends up like with B-T
2015-08-16T17:36:19Z fe[nl]ix: which works for only very basic stuff
2015-08-16T17:37:01Z fe[nl]ix: but if I needed to do fancy stuff, I'd choose a good implementation and use its extensions exclusively
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2015-08-16T17:40:41Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: e.g. SBCL's recursive locks are not refcounted, which is what most people expect
2015-08-16T17:41:30Z beach: loz: That is determined at compile time, so the compiler generates code accordingly.
2015-08-16T17:42:43Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: ... refcounted recursive locks? Do people depend on being able to get the count out of the lock?
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2015-08-16T17:44:47Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: no, but they expect to have explicit get/release operations, whereas on SBCL there's only a with-recursive-mutex
2015-08-16T17:44:59Z p_l: mhm
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2015-08-16T17:58:05Z loz: beach ok
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2015-08-16T18:14:47Z loz: hm, there should be difference between symbols and variables:
2015-08-16T18:14:47Z loz: (let ((x 5)) (symbol-value 'x)) -> ; Evaluation aborted on #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE X {100397D073}>.
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2015-08-16T18:39:14Z Bike: x is lexical, so symbol-value doesn't work on it
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2015-08-16T19:40:56Z Fare: minion: what does minion stand for?
2015-08-16T19:40:56Z minion: Micturate Impavidity Nargil Interannular Orchialgia Nonfreeman
2015-08-16T19:41:25Z pjb: loz1: I don't see what's the problem. You say there should be difference between symbols and variable, and there is. (let ((x 5)) (symbol-value 'x)) vs (let ((x 5)) x); Is there something bothering you?
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2015-08-17T00:08:47Z crichter: Hey y'all, having an embarrasing bit of difficulty working through Tornhill's "Lisp for the Web"
2015-08-17T00:09:22Z crichter: I'm perdidting my efforts in a saved file, but loading that file doesn't seem to switch me to the package I want...
2015-08-17T00:09:28Z crichter: ^persisting
2015-08-17T00:09:40Z crichter: What I've done so far is here: http://pastebin.com/4QSFcGc5
2015-08-17T00:10:29Z crichter: When I load this file, it returns "T", but my prompt fails to shift to "RETRO-GAMES>" as it does when I enter all this stuff at the top-level...
2015-08-17T00:10:59Z crichter: So I'm wondering what blindingly obvious thing it is that I'm failing to do...
2015-08-17T00:11:40Z rme: You can just type (in-package :retro-games) at the top-level prompt, of course.
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2015-08-17T00:12:10Z crichter: Yes, but shouldn't LOADing this file do that?
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2015-08-17T00:13:54Z rme: No, cl:load preserves the existing value of *package*.
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2015-08-17T00:16:18Z pjb: It's by design.
2015-08-17T00:16:56Z crichter: Can it be overridden?
2015-08-17T00:16:57Z pjb: crichter: sometimes, I add a (print '(in-package "THIS-PACKAGE")) at the end of the file, so when I load it, I can copy-paste the form in the REPL.
2015-08-17T00:17:06Z pjb: crichter: only by writing your own load function.
2015-08-17T00:17:40Z crichter: Huh.
2015-08-17T00:17:50Z crichter: There's much I do not understand
2015-08-17T00:17:51Z pjb: (defun my-load (file) (with-open-file (src file) (loop for form = (read src nil src) until (eq form src) do (eval form))))
2015-08-17T00:18:18Z pjb: standard cl:load is more like: (defun .load (file) (let ((*package* *package*) (*readtable* *readtable*)) (with-open-file (src file) (loop for form = (read src nil src) until (eq form src) do (eval form)))))
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2015-08-17T00:19:36Z pjb: so when you (setf *package* (find-package "A-NEW-PACKAGE")) in the file with the standard cl:load, you just change the current binding of *package*, and when cl:load exits, the old binding is restored.
2015-08-17T00:20:03Z crichter: That's probably cleaner, huh?
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2015-08-17T00:20:11Z pjb: Is it not?
2015-08-17T00:20:23Z pjb: What is fuzzy?
2015-08-17T00:21:13Z pjb: Notice that your file can define a function in the current package, or better, in cl-user that the user may call to set up the repl environment as you wish.
2015-08-17T00:22:16Z pjb: So you could have in the file: (defun cl-user::in-my-pack () (setf *package* (find-package "MY-PACKAGE")))  (in-package "MY-PACKAGE") … ; then you would use (load "my-file.lisp") (cl-user::in-my-pack)
2015-08-17T00:22:43Z pjb: Not a big win, unless you name your packages as I do :-)
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2015-08-17T00:23:31Z pjb: ie, like: com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.browser
2015-08-17T00:24:33Z crichter: Sweet! Thx pjb!
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2015-08-17T00:25:12Z pjb: crichter: also, if you use slime, you would use C-c C-l to load the file, and instead of typing forms in the REPL, you can type them in the file (eg. at the bottom), and then slime finds the in-package form in the source automatically.
2015-08-17T00:25:55Z pjb: Sometimes I put those forms in a  #+(and)(progn …) so they don't get loaded, but I can still C-x C-e each form inside this progn.
2015-08-17T00:26:29Z pjb: The only thing is that this doesn't work for interactive forms, since you will want to do the I/O still in the REPL buffer.
2015-08-17T00:26:55Z pjb: Theorically, we could implement a *query-io* stream in slime that would let you do interactive I/O in emacs, for the inferior-lisp process.
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2015-08-17T02:55:46Z nakiya: Hello!
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2015-08-17T03:27:58Z Nuri: hi, nakiya
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2015-08-17T03:28:31Z slaterr: is there a common lisp evalbot in this channel or somewhere else on freenode?
2015-08-17T03:29:53Z White_Flame: just post it with a random incorrect result, and about 300 people will dogpile on it with the correct evaluation ;)
2015-08-17T03:31:47Z slaterr: I was just wondering if this works, no CL in here to test. (mapcar '+ '(1 2 3) '(10 20 30))
2015-08-17T03:31:57Z ToeTag: haha White_Flame
2015-08-17T03:32:33Z White_Flame: WF-EVALBOT> (mapcar '+ '(1 2 3) '(10 20 30)) -> (11 22 33)
2015-08-17T03:32:37Z Zhivago: slaterr: Sure.
2015-08-17T03:32:57Z Zhivago: slaterr: But you should be able to install clisp easily pretty much anywhere.
2015-08-17T03:33:18Z slaterr: cool thanks
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2015-08-17T03:33:26Z White_Flame: if the 2 lists are imbalanced, it'll return results in length to the shorter list, with no error, ignoring the longer list's further elements
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2015-08-17T03:45:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-17T03:55:59Z theos: hey beach
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2015-08-17T04:39:20Z drmeister: Hey beach.
2015-08-17T04:39:34Z drmeister: I switched to the C calling convention with varargs.
2015-08-17T04:40:35Z drmeister: I figured out how to hack varargs so that I can get most of the benefit of passing arguments in registers while allowing me to use varargs if more than three required arguments are passed.
2015-08-17T04:40:48Z drmeister: This also gives me access to the arguments passed to functions.
2015-08-17T04:45:06Z drmeister: There are no limits on the number of arguments that can be passed now.
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2015-08-17T04:51:08Z akkad: nice
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2015-08-17T05:00:59Z jackdaniel: drmeister: but you have to s tore somewhere number of arguments, right?
2015-08-17T05:01:03Z jackdaniel: s/s tore/store/
2015-08-17T05:01:20Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-08-17T05:01:32Z jackdaniel: ecl does same thing then ;D
2015-08-17T05:01:46Z drmeister: I pass it in the argument list and I store it in the register save area.
2015-08-17T05:08:18Z loke: Hello drm
2015-08-17T05:08:20Z loke: and jd
2015-08-17T05:08:23Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-08-17T05:08:33Z theos: o/
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2015-08-17T05:08:51Z loke: I remember talking to the maintainer of bordeaux-threads here. But I can't remember who it was.
2015-08-17T05:08:54Z loke: Anyone know?
2015-08-17T05:08:58Z loke: hello theos
2015-08-17T05:09:05Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix
2015-08-17T05:09:10Z loke: Ah, thanks.
2015-08-17T05:09:21Z loke: fenlix! Wake up.
2015-08-17T05:09:27Z jackdaniel: I hope he doesn't have a beeper on highlight, it's pretty early
2015-08-17T05:09:43Z loke: WHat TZ is he in?
2015-08-17T05:10:00Z jackdaniel: if bordeaux might be a clue, then in the morning one ;)
2015-08-17T05:10:08Z jackdaniel: gmt that is
2015-08-17T05:10:29Z loke: Hah
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2015-08-17T05:10:52Z loke: France is CET though (which it UTC+2 right now (UTC+1+DST))
2015-08-17T05:11:26Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe, I'm CET, so I can tell you exact hour without any calculation \o/ it's 07:11 am
2015-08-17T05:11:33Z jackdaniel: an exact°
2015-08-17T05:12:07Z loke: jd: Where are you at?
2015-08-17T05:12:19Z jackdaniel: Poland
2015-08-17T05:12:54Z loke: Hmm... I thought poland was EET?
2015-08-17T05:13:10Z jackdaniel: then you were mistaken :)
2015-08-17T05:13:12Z loke: i.e. same as finland
2015-08-17T05:13:16Z loke: OK then
2015-08-17T05:13:37Z loke: jd: ah you're right of course
2015-08-17T05:13:38Z loke: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/europe/general-information.html
2015-08-17T05:13:52Z jackdaniel: if you connect farest points in europe
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2015-08-17T05:14:01Z jackdaniel: they cross in Poland :p
2015-08-17T05:14:04Z jackdaniel: so it's central europe ;)
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2015-08-17T05:14:59Z loke: Damn. I was going to go out for lunch soon, but a tropical rainstorm just moved into the business district.
2015-08-17T05:15:18Z jackdaniel: oh, where are you then? ^_^
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2015-08-17T05:15:25Z loke: UTF+8
2015-08-17T05:15:27Z loke: UTC+8
2015-08-17T05:15:34Z loke: Singapore
2015-08-17T05:17:30Z loke: http://www.yr.no/sted/Singapore/Annet/Chinatown_Singapore/
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2015-08-17T05:24:45Z brucem: loke: I think most people don't understand how intense that sort of thing can be. :)
2015-08-17T05:25:17Z loke: brucem: You are right. I also just looked out the window and it's now stopped. Seems like i'll be getting my noodles for lunch after all :-)
2015-08-17T05:26:42Z pjb: slaterr: check https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-erc.el#L966 ; just type C-x C-e in your erc buffer.
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2015-08-17T05:27:33Z pjb: slaterr: demo: (+ 2 3) #| --> 5 |#
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2015-08-17T05:31:52Z brucem: loke: same here!
2015-08-17T05:36:34Z loke: brucem: Where are you?
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2015-08-17T05:49:45Z brucem: loke: Sriracha, Thailand.
2015-08-17T05:50:43Z loke: Oh yeah.
2015-08-17T05:50:45Z loke: I rmemeber now
2015-08-17T05:50:46Z jeaye: loke: I'm also in SG.
2015-08-17T05:51:45Z flip214: based on the month it should now be CEST
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2015-08-17T05:53:03Z flip214: although the weather has changed recently, it still should be _Summer_ time...
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2015-08-17T06:32:29Z jeaye: What's an alternative to subseq which allows sizes larger than the sequence, just returning the full sequence?
2015-08-17T06:32:56Z jeaye: I'm looking to cap the size of a list to a given number, allowing smaller lists than the number.
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2015-08-17T06:37:53Z Zhivago: So, you want to check for (or (subseq a b) (subseq b a))?
2015-08-17T06:40:12Z flip214: jeaye: I believe alexandria has such a function.
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2015-08-17T06:40:46Z flip214: Zhivago: I think it's about *not* returning an error if the wanted length is bigger than the sequence's allows.
2015-08-17T06:40:51Z flip214: *sequence
2015-08-17T06:41:41Z jeaye: Right, so (cap-size 3 '(1 2 3 4)) should be (1 2 3) and (cap-size 10 '(1 2 3)) should be (1 2 3)
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2015-08-17T06:43:36Z Bike: jeaye: (subseq sequence 0 (min n (length sequence))
2015-08-17T06:43:51Z Bike: )?
2015-08-17T06:44:04Z flip214: jeaye: I guess a self-written function via (LOOP REPEAT max FOR e IN input COLLECT e) would be the best thing
2015-08-17T06:44:08Z jeaye: Bike: Yeah, that would do it, but requires always calculating the length of the full sequence.
2015-08-17T06:44:10Z flip214: Bike: traverses the list twice...
2015-08-17T06:44:33Z Bike: well,flip's works then.
2015-08-17T06:44:43Z flip214: jeaye: if you don't require that it's a fresh list, you could also return the original list...
2015-08-17T06:45:39Z jeaye: flip214: That's very close to what I have: http://dpaste.com/1BKCR6P
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2015-08-17T06:46:19Z jeaye: Was just making sure I'm not wasting lines with functions that already exist in the standard.
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2015-08-17T06:57:18Z jeaye: More intricately, how could I use an accumulator to ensure I only format a up to a certain amount of times? http://dpaste.com/0T2R88N A complication is the nested iteration and not knowing how large each plan is.
2015-08-17T06:59:06Z flip214: "279 bytes, Ruby"?
2015-08-17T06:59:51Z flip214: "up to a certain amount of times?" => REPEAT?
2015-08-17T07:00:20Z jeaye shrugs. The paste is 279 bytes and dpaste apparently thinks lisp is ruby.
2015-08-17T07:00:34Z jeaye: flip214: I don't think repeat will work here, since I don't know how big each plan is.
2015-08-17T07:01:17Z jeaye: That is, in the nested iteration, I'm not sure how many times I'll call format; that's why I'm thinking accumulation.
2015-08-17T07:01:18Z loke: (loop with i = 0 for ... do (loop ... do (incf i))
2015-08-17T07:01:26Z loke: Don't be scared of incf
2015-08-17T07:01:48Z jeaye: I'll avoid it if I can.
2015-08-17T07:02:08Z loke: jeaye: Sure. And you should. However, if you have to jump through hoops to avoid it, don't.
2015-08-17T07:02:35Z loke: In this case, the obvious solution is so much simpler and clear than the alternative that you'd be crazy not to do it.
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2015-08-17T07:13:04Z flip214: jeaye: as you're using ITERATE already, why not use the general iterators for that? https://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/tmp/iterate-manual/html_node/Generators.html#Generators#
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2015-08-17T07:30:54Z jeaye: flip214: I've been digging through the docs, but they're not very greppable. Generators were exactly what I needed.
2015-08-17T07:30:58Z jeaye: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153832 does the trick.
2015-08-17T07:31:22Z jeaye: Thank you.
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2015-08-17T07:35:12Z flip214: jeaye: instead of (IF () (PROGN)) better use (WHEN () ...)
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2015-08-17T07:39:10Z Quiznos: mornin
2015-08-17T07:39:52Z Quiznos: Q: are lisp symbols pointers to  symbol table entries or to codelist?
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2015-08-17T07:43:42Z White_Flame: symbols are usually objects like any other, with slots for their name, package, toplevel value, etc
2015-08-17T07:44:03Z White_Flame: and when a lisp variable "holds a symbol", that'll generally be a pointer to that symbol object
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2015-08-17T07:44:16Z Quiznos: kty
2015-08-17T07:44:55Z White_Flame: it's a fully runtime manifested object on the heap
2015-08-17T07:45:00Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T07:45:15Z Quiznos: so, when does a symbol devolve to its name?
2015-08-17T07:45:22Z White_Flame: when you print it? :-P
2015-08-17T07:45:28Z Quiznos: k
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2015-08-17T07:45:33Z White_Flame: symbols don't go away like C variable names do
2015-08-17T07:45:55Z Quiznos: i'm contemplating porting some lisp concepts to my Forth implementation.
2015-08-17T07:45:59Z Quiznos: ok
2015-08-17T07:46:43Z Quiznos: White_Flame: you mean when you apply a terpri to a symbol?
2015-08-17T07:47:02Z White_Flame: you don't apply a terpri to a symbol
2015-08-17T07:47:20Z Quiznos: as inelegant as i may be, it that basicly correct?
2015-08-17T07:47:26Z White_Flame: when you ask the printer to render a symbol out a stream, it will output the symbol name, with its package if it's foreign
2015-08-17T07:47:32Z Quiznos: i'm not a lisper. i'm a forther/
2015-08-17T07:47:36Z White_Flame: right
2015-08-17T07:47:39Z Quiznos: ok
2015-08-17T07:47:43Z White_Flame: and I know Forth
2015-08-17T07:47:49Z Quiznos: kool
2015-08-17T07:47:51Z White_Flame: it doesn't have anything akin to symbols
2015-08-17T07:48:20Z Quiznos: ya but i'm not looking to port internals, just concepts; mostly the 1.5 stuff
2015-08-17T07:48:23Z Quiznos: if possible
2015-08-17T07:48:37Z White_Flame: I don't know what your target is exactly
2015-08-17T07:48:58Z White_Flame: if you want to turn dictionary entries into symbol-ish objects, vs having symbols built on top of Forth object allocation
2015-08-17T07:49:07Z Quiznos: my target is am indirectly threaded forth on x86 linux
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2015-08-17T07:51:36Z Quiznos: White_Flame: no; i want to incorporate lispiness into my forth in a elegant way that is seemless.
2015-08-17T07:52:02Z jeaye: flip214: That's just the kind of tip I like; thanks.
2015-08-17T07:52:59Z Quiznos: cons is a primitive; CFA holds a pointer to a Word's interpreter, and PFA[] is the ikst that *CFA interprets.
2015-08-17T07:53:13Z Quiznos: ikst/list
2015-08-17T07:53:14Z White_Flame: Quiznos: that's kind of a vague target.  One of Lisp's strengths is that source code is an AST which can be manipulated.  In Forth, expression evaluation is already unrolled.
2015-08-17T07:54:08Z Quiznos: White_Flame: it can be but words are usually elegant fragments of code to manipulate the stack
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2015-08-17T07:54:40Z Quiznos: i also figered out a new (cond) to replace compiler-time 'if'
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2015-08-17T07:55:02Z White_Flame: words aren't as first-class, dynamically manipulable objects as Lisp symbols, though.  They're almost write-only in terms of the dynamic state, with bulk unrolling in the common case
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2015-08-17T07:55:32Z White_Flame: you can certainly have cons-cell functions easily enough, though
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2015-08-17T07:55:39Z White_Flame: but that's just basic library writing
2015-08-17T07:55:50Z Quiznos: words rae first class, one can evaluate their &CFA and pass it on but that's not usual style
2015-08-17T07:55:55Z Quiznos: but it'snot impossible
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2015-08-17T07:58:36Z White_Flame: think of how you might implement closures in Forth
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2015-08-17T07:59:16Z Quiznos: White_Flame: i think user vars would be appropriate for that
2015-08-17T07:59:43Z Quiznos: a dyn allocated vector of values copied when approiaate
2015-08-17T07:59:54Z Quiznos:  memset() like fevice
2015-08-17T07:59:58Z Quiznos: device
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2015-08-17T08:00:56Z Quiznos: and with FIg model vocabulary tree and branches, data hiding by creating new sub-vocs under a user's task branch, would be elegant i think
2015-08-17T08:00:59Z White_Flame: consider 2 closure objects created from a single lambda body, each with their own data bindings, each being active & available
2015-08-17T08:01:20Z Quiznos: that's quite close to the limit of my fp grokage
2015-08-17T08:01:26Z Quiznos: glide gently
2015-08-17T08:01:55Z White_Flame: good ol' adders.  (defun make-adder (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))
2015-08-17T08:02:07Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:02:26Z Quiznos: te boy is the [+yx]?
2015-08-17T08:02:28Z White_Flame: (let ((adder1 (make-adder 1)) (adder 2 (make-adder 2))) ...)
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2015-08-17T08:02:32Z Quiznos: tehe body
2015-08-17T08:02:38Z White_Flame: so now I have 2 adders.  Right
2015-08-17T08:02:44Z Quiznos: i think so
2015-08-17T08:02:48Z White_Flame: each has their own closure, with their own variable
2015-08-17T08:02:54Z Quiznos: ya
2015-08-17T08:02:59Z White_Flame: it isn't a stack of "the current closure"
2015-08-17T08:03:19Z Quiznos: is the environ closure copied as needed?
2015-08-17T08:03:29Z Quiznos: redacted/
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2015-08-17T08:03:31Z White_Flame: I don't understand that term
2015-08-17T08:03:32Z Quiznos: ?
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2015-08-17T08:03:35Z Quiznos: which>
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2015-08-17T08:04:48Z White_Flame: "the environ closure" and why it would be copied
2015-08-17T08:05:19Z Quiznos: the 'encironment' is the key/value pairs of non-local variables
2015-08-17T08:05:24Z Quiznos: as i understand it
2015-08-17T08:05:29Z White_Flame: these are local variables
2015-08-17T08:05:35Z Quiznos: ok
2015-08-17T08:05:46Z White_Flame: ah, but if you're talking about a lisp1.5, then yeah, I'm not sure if it goes that far
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2015-08-17T08:05:54Z Quiznos: ok
2015-08-17T08:06:00Z White_Flame: this channel is about Common Lisp in particular
2015-08-17T08:06:06Z Quiznos: ill skip 'redacted'
2015-08-17T08:06:08Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:06:42Z Quiznos: but lisp 1.5 is still a capable, even if immature, lisp definition?
2015-08-17T08:06:53Z White_Flame: sure
2015-08-17T08:07:03Z White_Flame: depending on how "capable" you need ;)
2015-08-17T08:07:05Z Quiznos: especially for finding concepts to port?
2015-08-17T08:07:19Z Quiznos: i just need the concept meanings
2015-08-17T08:07:33Z Quiznos: and the meaning of the funs
2015-08-17T08:07:34Z White_Flame: If you don't understand the concepts, how do you know what to port over?
2015-08-17T08:07:42Z White_Flame: or even that you'd want to port over?
2015-08-17T08:07:46Z Quiznos: that's wht i'm learning
2015-08-17T08:07:47Z White_Flame: also, what about garbage collection?
2015-08-17T08:07:58Z White_Flame: right, then you should learn Lisp, not learn about porting Lisp to Forth
2015-08-17T08:07:59Z Quiznos: gc is on the todo list
2015-08-17T08:08:06Z White_Flame: GC is fundamental
2015-08-17T08:08:16Z Quiznos: well, i have seen lisps without it
2015-08-17T08:08:18Z White_Flame: the other option is just to run until out-of-memory death, then restart everything
2015-08-17T08:08:23Z Quiznos: but i do think i'll implement it
2015-08-17T08:08:33Z Quiznos: ya, not a fan of that concept
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2015-08-17T08:09:32Z White_Flame: but anyway, by all means build a cons cell system, allocate custom structures for symbols, and interpret it in Forth
2015-08-17T08:09:46Z Quiznos: ya
2015-08-17T08:09:54Z White_Flame: then you'll see what you might be able to integrate into the language itself
2015-08-17T08:10:20Z Quiznos: i can already envision a replacement tty shell and its functionality
2015-08-17T08:10:27Z Quiznos: ya
2015-08-17T08:10:42Z White_Flame: if you want Lisp, you coudl always just use an existing Lisp :-P
2015-08-17T08:10:51Z Quiznos: too many punct :)
2015-08-17T08:11:12Z Quiznos: i do prefer to read []'s tho
2015-08-17T08:11:25Z Quiznos: but i guess that bc if my reaading the 1.5 book
2015-08-17T08:12:36Z White_Flame: yo'ure not going to have cons cells & Lisp expressions without grouping punctuation
2015-08-17T08:12:50Z White_Flame: but anyway, this is kind of off-topic for the channel
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2015-08-17T08:13:34Z Quiznos: dynamic cons cells are allocated in the heap and that;s where gc would work
2015-08-17T08:13:52Z Quiznos: ##hwere is it not OT?
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2015-08-17T08:14:17Z White_Flame: right, but are you always going to write nil 3 cons 2 cons 1 cons all the time, or (1 2 3)?
2015-08-17T08:14:52Z Quiznos: i'm not sure
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2015-08-17T08:15:05Z White_Flame: Quiznos: there's a couple of other lisp channels, though I'm only here.  Others are more sticklers for OT-ness, so I generally go along with that
2015-08-17T08:15:17Z Quiznos: if i maintain forthiness, then those values would have to be on the default stack
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2015-08-17T08:15:37Z Quiznos: well; no one's actually objected yet here
2015-08-17T08:15:53Z White_Flame: right, I don't mind much, usually others do, so I note it
2015-08-17T08:15:58Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:17:10Z Quiznos: ok so let's talk lisp
2015-08-17T08:17:20Z Quiznos: how are map and apply different?
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2015-08-17T08:18:08Z |3b|: clhs apply
2015-08-17T08:18:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2015-08-17T08:18:12Z |3b|: clhs map
2015-08-17T08:18:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm
2015-08-17T08:18:24Z |3b|: apply passes a bunch of arguments to a single function call
2015-08-17T08:18:32Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:18:53Z |3b|: map calls a function repeatedly with each element in one or more sequences
2015-08-17T08:19:14Z |3b|: and possibly builds a sequence out of the results
2015-08-17T08:19:19Z Quiznos: k
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2015-08-17T08:21:06Z Quiznos: is apply derived from map?
2015-08-17T08:21:18Z Quiznos: or is map dependent on apply?
2015-08-17T08:21:29Z |3b|: unrelated
2015-08-17T08:21:33Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:21:37Z |3b|: map is probably built on funcall
2015-08-17T08:21:45Z Quiznos: which does what?
2015-08-17T08:22:16Z |3b|: funcall calls a function with specified arguments, apply calls a function with arguments from a list (+ some explicitly specified ones
2015-08-17T08:22:41Z |3b|: (funcall #'x 1 2 3) ~= (x 1 2 3) ~= (apply #'x 1 '(2 3))
2015-08-17T08:22:54Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:23:14Z Quiznos: what does the [#] represent?
2015-08-17T08:23:20Z |3b|: (map 'list #'x '(1 2 3)) ~= (list (x 1) (x 2) (x 3)) ~= (list (funcall #'x 1) (funcall #'x 2) (#'x 3))
2015-08-17T08:23:41Z |3b|: meaning of # depends on following character, #'x is shorthand for (function x)
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2015-08-17T08:23:52Z Quiznos: it is a interpreter hint?
2015-08-17T08:23:53Z |3b|: which returns the function associated with the name X
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2015-08-17T08:24:08Z Quiznos: oh, a quoter?
2015-08-17T08:24:13Z |3b|: #' is a read macro, FUNCTION is a special operator
2015-08-17T08:24:18Z Quiznos: kk
2015-08-17T08:24:57Z Quiznos: gotcha
2015-08-17T08:25:50Z |3b|: CL is specified in terms of lists and symbols and such, so it specifies behavior for a list starting with the symbol CL:FUNCTION and another symbol, but doesn't (directly) specifiy the behavior associated with the sequence of characters ( F U N C T I O N   X )
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2015-08-17T08:26:22Z Quiznos: o (apply) takes a List, and calls [0] to evaluate thre rest of the list?
2015-08-17T08:26:36Z |3b|: it also specifies how to convert the sequence of characters into the list of symbols, part of which is ability to specify arbitrary behavior when it sees specific characters.
2015-08-17T08:26:46Z Quiznos: k
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2015-08-17T08:27:52Z |3b|: apply takes a function designator (for example an actual function object, or a symbol naming a function), one or more actual arguments, and a list of any remaining arguments, then calls that function with the arguments in some implementation dependent manner
2015-08-17T08:28:18Z Quiznos: k; so myunderstanding is close?
2015-08-17T08:28:45Z |3b| doesn't know what you mean by [0]
2015-08-17T08:28:56Z Quiznos: the car of List
2015-08-17T08:28:57Z |3b|: it doesn't "evaluate" the list though
2015-08-17T08:29:01Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:29:10Z Quiznos: 'process' rest of lists
2015-08-17T08:29:16Z Quiznos: for all definitions of Process :)
2015-08-17T08:29:22Z |3b|: it calls the function
2015-08-17T08:29:42Z Quiznos: k
2015-08-17T08:29:44Z |3b|: only other thing it does is arrange for the list to end up as arguments to that function call
2015-08-17T08:29:51Z |3b|: how that happens is up to the implementation
2015-08-17T08:29:55Z Quiznos: ok
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2015-08-17T08:33:10Z Quiznos: tyvm wta.
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2015-08-17T09:12:01Z jackdaniel: if some symbol is imported in *pack*, then (do-symbols …) will catch it, right?
2015-08-17T09:12:03Z jackdaniel: but (eq (symbol-package symb) package) will resolve to NIL ?
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2015-08-17T09:24:40Z flip214: jackdaniel: the "home" package of a symbol is a single package, while it might be available in multiple packages.
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2015-08-17T11:05:33Z jackdaniel: luis: ping
2015-08-17T11:08:48Z fe[nl]ix: loke: I'm in Switzerland
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2015-08-17T11:12:18Z jackdaniel: is there english abberv for "additional specification"? Like if something isn't specified in original document and you fill this part in supplement…
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2015-08-17T11:18:59Z edgar-rft: addendum? (warning: not a netive english speaker, too)
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2015-08-17T11:19:30Z jackdaniel: my dictionary says "unbound variable" :)
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2015-08-17T11:20:40Z edgar-rft: I usually find this word in instruction manual if additions are noted on the last page
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2015-08-17T11:21:15Z jackdaniel: oh, you mean errata
2015-08-17T11:21:25Z jackdaniel: erratum*
2015-08-17T11:21:36Z jackdaniel: yes, that kinda fits – thanks
2015-08-17T11:21:49Z edgar-rft: no: errata are errors, addenedum means "additional things" or "afterthoughts"
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2015-08-17T11:22:15Z jackdaniel: uhm
2015-08-17T11:22:38Z edgar-rft: but again: better ask a native english speaker  : -)
2015-08-17T11:22:43Z jackdaniel: ok, found it on second dictionary
2015-08-17T11:23:21Z jackdaniel: oh, I type abbendum, no wonder couldn't find it without search engine
2015-08-17T11:23:25Z jackdaniel: s/type/typed/
2015-08-17T11:23:45Z jackdaniel: yeah, that fits perfectly, thanks :)
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2015-08-17T11:43:04Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for beach: I've decided to signal an error if there are two required parameters of the same name in  lambda-list – it won't blow though if optional parameter shadows required one
2015-08-17T11:43:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-17T12:11:10Z pjb: jeaye: (format nil "~3{~A,~A~}" '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0)) #| --> "1,23,45,6" |#
2015-08-17T12:11:23Z pjb: jeaye: (format nil "~3{~A,~A ~}" '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0)) #| --> "1,2 3,4 5,6 " |#
2015-08-17T12:11:59Z jeaye: pjb: I'm missing context here.
2015-08-17T12:13:13Z pjb: you want to format a maximum number of items.
2015-08-17T12:13:29Z jeaye: Ah, doing it all through format.
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2015-08-17T12:13:45Z pjb: format already can count iterations, you don't nede to iterate or accumulate anything.
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2015-08-17T12:14:08Z jeaye: pjb: Very nice, thanks. I'll look for that next time.
2015-08-17T12:14:29Z jeaye: pjb: One issue is that I'd have to rework the data to work in a single format call.
2015-08-17T12:14:58Z jeaye: That would likely be just a much work as the ITERATE generator.
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2015-08-17T12:15:10Z pjb: ok.
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2015-08-17T13:28:53Z MatthewRock: What's the preferable way of appending element at the end of the list? (append firstlist (mklist element))?
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2015-08-17T13:29:44Z jackdaniel: there's no prefereable way - appending to the end of list is inefficient (you have to traverse whole list)
2015-08-17T13:29:46Z Xach: MatthewRock: it's often "rething the choices that made it seem like something worth doing", but yours works too (if you use "list" instead of "mklist")
2015-08-17T13:29:54Z flip214: MatthewRock: I guess the most prefered thing would be to *prepend*, that goes much faster...
2015-08-17T13:29:54Z Xach: rethink, rather
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2015-08-17T13:31:56Z MatthewRock: Xach: mklist was to make sure that element is list, and not a list of lists. But then again, I forgot about prepending and reversing. Thanks for reminding me of that guys!
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2015-08-17T13:32:20Z jackdaniel: (ensure-list bah) ? :-)
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2015-08-17T13:45:06Z pjb: MatthewRock: (defstruct my-list head tail)
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2015-08-17T14:26:56Z jackdaniel: (memq* item list*) – what should happen, if I call it (memq* 3 '(1 2 . 3)) – I'm asking about intuition, there is no such a function
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2015-08-17T14:28:53Z Xach: jackdaniel: i would intuit an error
2015-08-17T14:29:10Z jackdaniel: Xach: why?
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2015-08-17T14:29:31Z Xach: jackdaniel: because of the non-list cdr
2015-08-17T14:30:05Z jackdaniel: yeah, well, I was hoping that memq* will make it clear – I want to have member which works on dotted list (I'm fixing deftype on ECL)
2015-08-17T14:30:06Z Xach: i would assume it would compare the car and move down the cdr
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2015-08-17T14:30:35Z jackdaniel: results I consider are atom 3, list (3) or nil
2015-08-17T14:30:37Z Xach: The * doesn't really tell much about the nature of the variation from the unstarred version
2015-08-17T14:30:47Z jackdaniel: yeah, you're right, sorry about that
2015-08-17T14:31:07Z Xach: No problem - I don't know how you'd best convey that info
2015-08-17T14:32:18Z |3b|: if the definition is "member, except works on dotted lists", i'd say nil or 3
2015-08-17T14:33:05Z |3b|: and if you are writing it for a specific use, whichever matches that use better
2015-08-17T14:33:32Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks – that is my intuition as well
2015-08-17T14:34:41Z jackdaniel: person, who decided that deftype has to accept macro lambda-list except that defaults are different were cruel person ^_^
2015-08-17T14:34:46Z jackdaniel: s/were/was/
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2015-08-17T14:35:46Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's very handy for the users!
2015-08-17T14:36:09Z Xach: http://lisptips.com/post/44186972221/the-optional-arguments-of-deftype
2015-08-17T14:36:13Z jackdaniel: Xach: I guess so :) and it's not that hard to implement, just grumbling a little :)
2015-08-17T14:36:57Z scymtym__: is there a way to submit patches for cxml and related projects?
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2015-08-17T14:39:21Z jackdaniel: Xach: this example actually works – problem arises when you put there dotted lists, or something more nested
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2015-08-17T14:40:16Z jackdaniel: scymtym__: have you tried to make pull request https://github.com/mcna/cxml here?
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2015-08-17T14:43:16Z H4ns: jackdaniel: weäre not maintaining cxml.
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2015-08-17T14:43:32Z H4ns: (we're)
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2015-08-17T14:44:08Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: are you in contact with David ?
2015-08-17T14:44:23Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-08-17T14:44:38Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: not on a regular fashion, but he usually replies to email.
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2015-08-17T14:49:41Z pjb: jackdaniel: the "correct" result would be 3.
2015-08-17T14:50:32Z pjb: or nil, memq = member :test eq so since (eq 3 3) --> nil is possible…
2015-08-17T14:50:40Z pjb: really a bad function your memq*.
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2015-08-17T14:54:00Z pjb: (defun memcon (cell list) (loop :for current :on list :when (eql cell current) :do (return current)))  (memcon 3 '(1 2 . 3)) #| --> nil |#
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2015-08-17T14:57:46Z jackdaniel: hm, my function is as follows now (labels ((memq* (item list*) (when (consp list*) (if (eq item (car list*)) list* (memq* item (cdr list*))))) – but it should suffice, I'll add in comment, that it doesn't grab dotted argument
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2015-08-17T15:14:22Z flip214: +1 for jackdaniel, for all the efforts going into ECL maintenance!
2015-08-17T15:15:04Z synergistics: Can you think of the # followed by another glyph to be a type signifier? I've seen ones like #x and #\ and I want to generalize that symbol
2015-08-17T15:15:30Z Xach: synergistics: no. it is a dispatch macro character.
2015-08-17T15:15:32Z rme: It's called a dispatching macro character.
2015-08-17T15:15:43Z jackdaniel: flip214: thanks :-)
2015-08-17T15:15:47Z synergistics: Ok I'll look that up
2015-08-17T15:16:09Z synergistics: But what is its general purpose in simple terms
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2015-08-17T15:18:27Z Xach: synergistics: the purpose is to turn a stream of characters into an object
2015-08-17T15:18:35Z Xach: synergistics: or into nothing, sometimes
2015-08-17T15:18:43Z synergistics: Oh that's cool
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2015-08-17T15:19:06Z Xach: synergistics: just like ', (, ", and other characters that don't use two
2015-08-17T15:19:34Z Xach: you start to run out of room for single characters, so # is used as a sort of second level of standard reader syntax
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2015-08-17T15:20:41Z synergistics: And it can be used with different characters to work with different sets of objects? Like char codes, hex number, et cetera
2015-08-17T15:20:59Z Xach: synergistics: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.1.4.4 has some info, and there's a list of what's reserved for the user and what's standard in there too...
2015-08-17T15:21:40Z Xach: synergistics: yes. basically, there's a table of some form that says "when you encounter # followed by ', call a specific function to process the following input and return an object"
2015-08-17T15:21:55Z synergistics: I see
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2015-08-17T15:22:37Z Xach: that rich freedom seems like it can make it a pain to process lisp source code for e.g. making a html cross-reference of a body of source code, but maybe in practice it's not a huge deal.
2015-08-17T15:23:32Z synergistics: That's really awesome. I'll have to see how that works. I don't know much about macros yet
2015-08-17T15:23:48Z pjb: Well, this has nothing to do with macros, at all.
2015-08-17T15:24:03Z pjb: synergistics: in CL, there are macros, compiler macros, and reader macros.
2015-08-17T15:24:03Z Xach: except the name
2015-08-17T15:24:09Z pjb: Yes, just the name.
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2015-08-17T15:25:00Z synergistics: Oh ok.
2015-08-17T15:25:19Z flip214: synergistics: there are lots of unicode points to choose from...
2015-08-17T15:26:16Z pjb: Notably, mind all those mathematical symbols!
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2015-08-17T15:42:18Z jackdaniel was working with custom memq*, while (subst-if nil (constantly-nil) *tree* :key #'(lambda (elt) (when (eq (ensure-car elt) '&optional) …)))
2015-08-17T15:42:21Z jackdaniel: hueh
2015-08-17T15:42:26Z jackdaniel: is a perfect fit
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2015-08-17T16:01:56Z scymtym__: H4ns: jackdaniel: sorry, was afk. re cxml: so the best option is emailing david?
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2015-08-17T16:04:04Z H4ns: scymtym__: yes, at least if he is still pointing at himself on the cxml home page.  the mcna repository is just a clone that we have to isolate ourselves from the upstream repository and we're not accepting pull requests to it.
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2015-08-17T16:04:35Z scymtym__: H4ns: ok, thank you
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2015-08-17T16:10:29Z jackdaniel: ha, it works :-)
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2015-08-17T16:27:19Z scymtym__: H4ns: i already tried (and forgot that i did) the email address on the closure XML website: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/cxml-devel/2015-February/000380.html. you may want to incorporate the patch into your clone since it fixes an annoying infinite loop.
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2015-08-17T16:31:20Z sigjuice: I am trying to use buildapp as explained here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18917067/how-to-use-buildapp-in-combination-with-quicklisp, but it fails with "Error finding package for symbol "QUICKLOAD":" "The name "QUICKLISP-CLIENT" does not designate any package."
2015-08-17T16:31:37Z sigjuice: any suggestions on how I might get to the bottom of this?
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2015-08-17T17:15:58Z pjb: sigjuice: (load #P"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
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2015-08-17T17:20:07Z sigjuice: pjb: thanks.  I will try that.
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2015-08-17T18:40:00Z MinMar: Hi! Is there an idiomatic to seperate keyword argument pairs out of a rest parameter?
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2015-08-17T18:40:47Z MinMar: For cases where I want to write a small function decorator for a varargs function that manipulates it arguments before passing down to it, without getting rid of the keyword arguments?
2015-08-17T18:41:08Z Bike: MinMar: you can use getf to retrieve one.
2015-08-17T18:42:27Z Bike: other than that i'm not sure what you're asking.
2015-08-17T18:42:32Z MinMar: Bike: I was hoping tk not have to know what keyword arguments the child function accepts (in case it's api changes).
2015-08-17T18:43:20Z Bike: i mean, why can you not just pass the list?
2015-08-17T18:43:45Z MinMar: Bike: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/UPc0yQfzypen02pFxj8Z/
2015-08-17T18:44:00Z MinMar: I wanted to flatten every non-keyword argument list
2015-08-17T18:44:14Z MinMar: without flattening the keyword arguments that get passed to mapcar
2015-08-17T18:44:25Z MinMar: (if there ever happened to be one)
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2015-08-17T18:44:52Z Bike: mapcar wouldn't take keyword arguments, cos it takes multiple lists.
2015-08-17T18:45:20Z Bike: but well, the way lisp functions work you have to have key right after rest, so your function arguments are like (foo bar &rest keys &key baz bak bad)
2015-08-17T18:45:28Z Bike: so the entire rest list is keys.
2015-08-17T18:46:07Z MinMar: Bike: I thought it was legal to combine &rest and &key?
2015-08-17T18:46:15Z MinMar: if it is not, then yeah, this is a non-problem...
2015-08-17T18:46:39Z Bike: it is legal, in the way i just said.
2015-08-17T18:47:03Z Bike: but there's no way you can have a function take some amount of rest arguments that aren't keys, and then key arguments that aren't in the rest list (other than parsing them yourself somehow)
2015-08-17T18:48:01Z MinMar: I see
2015-08-17T18:48:05Z MinMar: Bike: Thanks.
2015-08-17T18:49:00Z Bike: there'd be no real way to tell where the keywords are supposed to start in any lsit of arguments.
2015-08-17T18:49:23Z MinMar: That's too bad :/
2015-08-17T18:50:21Z Bike: well, how would you make it work? make callers pass a :keys-start-here?
2015-08-17T18:51:04Z MinMar: Yeah, I see what you are saying, I was just hoping clisp might have had something built in.
2015-08-17T18:51:27Z MinMar: I could always look at the function signature of the wrapped function, but iirc, there is no standard way to do that
2015-08-17T18:51:37Z Bike: there is not.
2015-08-17T18:51:41Z MinMar: (Plus, that is a bit expensive anyways)
2015-08-17T18:52:11Z Bike: i don't think i understand your problem, though.
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2015-08-17T18:52:23Z Bike: like, can you give me an example call?
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2015-08-17T18:54:10Z MinMar: Bike: IIRC, I once wrote a wrapper for reduce, and I wanted it to support :from-end like reduce did; it seemed silly to have to explicitly replicate every keyword argument I wanted to be able to pass into reduce in my wrapper
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2015-08-17T18:55:44Z Bike: well, that's easy. (defun my-reduce (function sequence &rest keys) (apply #'reduce function sequence keys))
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2015-08-17T19:00:13Z Bike: if you wanted to add stuff you could have (function sequence &rest keys &key my-key &allow-other-keys), etc.
2015-08-17T19:00:13Z shrdlu68 cackles wildly
2015-08-17T19:00:55Z shrdlu68: I'm implementing a common-lisp system from scratch. Looks like I'm in good company
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2015-08-17T20:26:45Z francogrex: for this http://www.cliki.net/Zeta-C given the warning "And before you ask, no, it's not trivially portable to Common Lisp"... I don't care now to have a common lisp output but only to see that it "translates" to some lisp. How would you use it? has anyone tried to?
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2015-08-17T20:31:12Z varjag: francogrex: it was perhaps the only way of building a c program on a lisp machine
2015-08-17T20:31:19Z dlowe: well, Zeta-C would just compile to lisp-image-compatible asm code
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2015-08-17T20:31:23Z dlowe: not to a lisp
2015-08-17T20:31:42Z varjag: so it was important perhaps from a marketing perspective for the vendors
2015-08-17T20:31:55Z varjag: not sure how practical it ever was
2015-08-17T20:32:08Z varjag: francogrex: check out also https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
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2015-08-17T20:35:48Z pjb: varjag: there were also Fortran, Pascal and Ada compilers on the LispMachine.  For a time, LispMachines were the best Ada workstations on the market.
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2015-08-17T20:36:43Z pjb: You could implement Zeta-Lisp on CL, and then run Zeta-C on Zeta-Lisp on CL.
2015-08-17T20:36:54Z pjb: But still not trivial.
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2015-08-17T20:42:29Z varjag: pjb: you can make a case for ada i guess, but i somehow doubt c on a lisp machine was a rewarding experience then
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2015-08-17T20:47:43Z pjb: And why not?
2015-08-17T20:47:58Z pjb: Foremost, I guess it served to show that C programs were slower than lisp programs.
2015-08-17T20:48:10Z pjb: (when running on a processor optimized for lisp).
2015-08-17T20:48:29Z pjb: Just like C programs are not much fater than lisp programs when running on a processor optimized for C.
2015-08-17T20:48:42Z pjb: And also, to use C libraries.
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2015-08-17T20:50:09Z pjb: C is not an inherently bad language. It's the C programmers and the C ecosystem that are bad, insisting on speed instead of safety.  The C standard allow the same safety, run-time type checking and bound checking than the CL standard.  But C programmers are so dumb, they don't write their compilers to implement it.
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2015-08-17T20:54:08Z Xach: s/win 3
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2015-08-17T20:57:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: (internal-time-units-per-second) ; Evaluation aborted on #<UNDEFINED-FUNCTION INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND {1005851763}>.
2015-08-17T20:57:37Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: it is a constant, not a function.
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2015-08-17T20:57:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Xach: Thanks, I didn't even have time to send my question.
2015-08-17T20:58:12Z pjb: Definitely a defect of the standard. You want it to be a function of your relative speed!
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2015-08-17T21:00:06Z dlowe: but we need MACHINE-VERSION to be a function, just in case the machine changes while running your program
2015-08-17T21:00:18Z pjb: :-)
2015-08-17T21:00:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Can that actually happen?
2015-08-17T21:00:54Z pjb: dlowe: mainframes could evolve with programs running.
2015-08-17T21:00:59Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-17T21:01:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Besides saving the image and moving it to a different machine or modifying the current machine?
2015-08-17T21:01:18Z dlowe: trivially. save your image, run the code on a different machine
2015-08-17T21:01:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: oh
2015-08-17T21:01:29Z pjb: You could launch a job with version 42 of the hardware, and finish it with version 43 and 2 new machine instructions!
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2015-08-17T21:01:36Z dlowe: of course, internal-time-units-per-second could probably change too
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2015-08-17T21:01:55Z dlowe: Having it be a constant was probably the wrong call there
2015-08-17T21:02:09Z rme: Since it's a constant, a compiler might decide to compile in the actual value.
2015-08-17T21:02:11Z pjb: Yes, definitely bad.
2015-08-17T21:02:18Z dlowe: rme: exactly
2015-08-17T21:02:21Z rme: (which is what dlowe just said)
2015-08-17T21:02:42Z pjb: CDR for (ext:current-internal-time-units-per-second).
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2015-08-17T21:13:46Z francogrex: ok I see how vacietis works, if zeta-c follows the same principle then it can only work on the lisp/machine lisp.
2015-08-17T21:14:37Z francogrex: does vacietis cover all the C standard? I doubt it's that complete (yet)
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2015-08-17T21:39:10Z reb`: francogrex: I looked at the zeta-c source code some time ago.  The main lispm feature that I remember it uses is the ability to access a vector in multiple ways ... by byte or by word.
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2015-08-17T21:54:23Z clop: is there a way to (read ...) a file that might have symbols like foo:bar, without first defining the foo package?  (I don't care about getting the "right" packages, I just want to textually analyze the file)
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2015-08-17T21:58:08Z francogrex: reb`: ok good to know that. I wonder if there is a lispmachine emulator for our x86 PCs..
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2015-08-17T22:08:50Z Xach: clop: not easily
2015-08-17T22:09:03Z Xach: francogrex: sure.
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2015-08-17T22:25:11Z francogrex: Xach: this? http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Page.L-machine
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2015-08-17T22:30:41Z francogrex: also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2015-08-17T22:31:22Z vrrm: clop: One approach would be to set up a handler.  In ECL conditions are clos ojects and you can retrieve information about what caused them by accessing the slots.  But this is non-partable:
2015-08-17T22:31:24Z vrrm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153847
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2015-08-17T22:36:17Z vrrm: clop: once you've identified that the symbol you're trying to read refers to a package that doesn't exists, you can arrange to have a package created for it, or turn it into a string, or instead insert the symbol into a package of your choosing or perform some other operation to handle the problem.
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2015-08-17T22:40:01Z clop: nice
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2015-08-17T22:48:46Z pjb: francogrex: AFAIK, Zeta-C is a true compiler.
2015-08-17T22:49:13Z pjb: clop: you could use my lisp reader.
2015-08-17T22:50:04Z pjb: clop: alternatively, you may add a reader macro on all the constituent characters to read tokens as you wish.
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2015-08-17T23:12:06Z Nuri: why lisp?
2015-08-17T23:12:11Z cluck: pjb: vacietis has some (afaiu legal) zeta-c code
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2015-08-17T23:28:43Z francogrex: ok gtg. later all.
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2015-08-18T01:22:34Z pjb`: cluck: only portions of the Vacietis libc may be derived from Zeta-C.
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2015-08-18T03:21:46Z zilogBG: Hello
2015-08-18T03:25:34Z rfmind_: Hi
2015-08-18T03:26:20Z zilogBG: Just a fellow LISP newbie greeting you all :)
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2015-08-18T03:26:56Z rfmind_: same here :D
2015-08-18T03:27:03Z rfmind_: I started lisp because of clojure
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2015-08-18T03:29:46Z zilogBG: I come from the C world, so I dont know much about Clojure
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2015-08-18T03:33:52Z rfmind_: I've started with C then went to Java, learned Python and Ruby
2015-08-18T03:34:21Z rfmind_: I discovered Clojure because I couldn't stand java anymore
2015-08-18T03:34:39Z rfmind_: and was looking for something better on the jvm
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2015-08-18T03:36:32Z zilogBG: I don`t think anyone can stand Java :D
2015-08-18T03:36:46Z rfmind_: :D
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2015-08-18T03:39:46Z zilogBG: are you doing some form of web development?
2015-08-18T03:40:46Z rfmind_: I write backend apis in django/python as my job
2015-08-18T03:44:42Z rfmind_: Are you fortunate enough to use LISP at work? :D
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2015-08-18T03:45:29Z zilogBG: Nah. We use a combination of C, PHP and SQl
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2015-08-18T03:49:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: zilogBG: C and PHP? What's the C for?
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2015-08-18T03:54:14Z zilogBG: Petit_Dejeuner: A Linux Daemon that listens to the "PHP part"
2015-08-18T03:55:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah, alright
2015-08-18T03:56:02Z loke: rfmind_: There is ABCL on The JVM
2015-08-18T03:56:56Z rfmind_: yes I've tinkered with it :D
2015-08-18T03:58:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think someone was asking the other day about using jar files with it.
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2015-08-18T04:32:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: How do you guys run your web stuff? I want to use port 80, but I need to be root to do that on linux. I can either redirect 80 from root to an unprotected port or just run my server in root. I'm not sure of any other options.
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2015-08-18T04:36:49Z rme: Petit_Dejeuner: I think it's pretty common to use a front-end web server like Apache, and use that to proxy/reverse-proxy access to the lisp web server.
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2015-08-18T04:37:22Z zilogBG: Petit_Dejeuner: What bothers you about running on port 80 as root?
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2015-08-18T04:41:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: zilogBG: Someone said something about running a server as root being bad (in passing, in a different context). That's why I ran the server on another account. Now all the files are there, and I haven't had any downtime yet, so I was hoping I could continue that instead of having to move everything over.
2015-08-18T04:41:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: rme: With mod_lisp? I'm not really web dev. Why bother with apache?
2015-08-18T04:41:48Z phadthai: if your daemon is started as root, it should indeed also support dropping privileges
2015-08-18T04:43:14Z pillton: Can't you just port forward 80 to a non privileged port?
2015-08-18T04:43:17Z phadthai: and if your lisp web application also includes a lisp web server, then indeed apache or nginx could proxy to them
2015-08-18T04:44:24Z phadthai: (if not using alternatives to HTTP for frontend-application communication)
2015-08-18T04:45:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess I'm learning apache then.
2015-08-18T04:46:49Z zilogBG: Petit_Dejeuner: Some people will tell you that it is bad to do anything as root
2015-08-18T04:46:54Z phadthai: another advantage is that such a frontend server is likely to serve more efficiently the static files
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2015-08-18T04:48:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think I've heard about that. It probably won't make a huge difference for me, but I might as well.
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2015-08-18T05:54:31Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-18T06:00:41Z ehu: jackdaniel: morning.
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2015-08-18T06:38:35Z loke: phadthai: Having ngnix in front of your CL server will also help deal with DoS attacks and the like.
2015-08-18T06:38:51Z loke: That's important if you're running a web server externally.
2015-08-18T06:39:37Z phadthai: it's indeed nice not to have to reproduce all of its features in an application server
2015-08-18T06:40:01Z phadthai: bbl
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2015-08-18T07:05:29Z Lokathor: lisp has tail call optimization right?
2015-08-18T07:05:44Z rme: CL does not guarantee it.
2015-08-18T07:05:57Z Lokathor: would have expected that it did
2015-08-18T07:07:01Z Zhivago: Scheme does, for a set of circumstances.
2015-08-18T07:07:15Z Zhivago: I'd like to see explicit tail call elision, myself.
2015-08-18T07:07:43Z Lokathor: well, a quick google shows that SBCL does that
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2015-08-18T07:07:51Z Lokathor: so i suppose i'll not hit any secret snags
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2015-08-18T07:10:57Z loke: Lokathor: SBCL only does it at certain optimisation levels
2015-08-18T07:11:07Z loke: And again, it's not guaranteed.
2015-08-18T07:11:34Z loke: I would strongly recommend against assuming it works.
2015-08-18T07:13:03Z jackdaniel: Lokathor: if you expect only tailcall recursion on same function – consider using do
2015-08-18T07:13:12Z loke: Or LOOP
2015-08-18T07:13:28Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-18T07:13:42Z jackdaniel: well, do is syntactic sugar for self-recurrency – it has initial form, step form, ending form and body
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2015-08-18T07:14:10Z loke: jackdaniel: I just find DO looks to be horribly hard to read compared to LOOP
2015-08-18T07:14:14Z Lokathor: however, it's both un-lispy AND un-haskelly
2015-08-18T07:14:15Z jackdaniel: while one could argue that loop is better for iteration – do is better for local recurrency
2015-08-18T07:14:18Z loke: But, that's my opinion only.
2015-08-18T07:14:19Z H4ns: i concur.
2015-08-18T07:14:30Z jackdaniel: loke: I find loop unreadable – it's so flat
2015-08-18T07:14:39Z H4ns: Lokathor: if you're looking for haskell, maybe you should use haskell :)
2015-08-18T07:14:59Z loke: Lokathor: it's the opposite of unlispy. In fact, it embodies every aspect of the power of Lisp.
2015-08-18T07:15:12Z Lokathor: a friend is starting common lisp for work, and i've always thought i should give it a try
2015-08-18T07:15:18Z H4ns: "lispy" is an attribute that only lisp newcomers tend to use and look for
2015-08-18T07:15:19Z loke: Whether it's unhaskelly is irrelevant. If you want Haskell, write Haskell.
2015-08-18T07:15:29Z Lokathor: so i'm attempting some common lisp, but coming from a mostly haskell/python background
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2015-08-18T07:15:49Z loke: Lokathor: Well, the first thing you have to learn is that Lisp is not a functional language.
2015-08-18T07:15:56Z H4ns: Lokathor: lisp is not a very clean language.  if you're looking for purity, then you'll probably be disappointed.
2015-08-18T07:16:13Z nikki93: it's clean
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2015-08-18T07:16:24Z nikki93: purity a la functional is a different concept
2015-08-18T07:16:41Z Lokathor: yeah a lot of what i've read so far involves various levels of awkwardness and a "too many cooks" sort of feel
2015-08-18T07:17:00Z Lokathor: it probably falls away as you get used to it
2015-08-18T07:17:06Z loke: nikki93: There are certainly unclean aspects of CL. None of them are related to functionalness though. I don't think many people would consider the pathname handling in CL particularly "clean".
2015-08-18T07:17:41Z nikki93: yeah, I was sort of annoyed by the different concepts of equality haha
2015-08-18T07:17:43Z jackdaniel: well, it allows purity if one seeks for it, but most libs are written in more pragmatic manner
2015-08-18T07:17:46Z Lokathor: loke, exactly. that was one of the first larger examples in Practical Common Lisp, and I think lisp looks worse off for it
2015-08-18T07:17:47Z jackdaniel: and both are good
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2015-08-18T07:18:00Z nikki93: Lokathor: purity etc. is possible but not as easily enforced as in haskell
2015-08-18T07:18:20Z nikki93: Lokathor: haskell is interesting for the rigid yet interesting and flexible typing, and the way it handles interactivity through monads
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2015-08-18T07:18:48Z nikki93: Lokathor: the program is functions that operate on /programs that can be interactive/. so getchar in haskell is simply a constant of type "program that returns a char"
2015-08-18T07:18:52Z nikki93: i.e., IO Char
2015-08-18T07:18:55Z H4ns: one thing can be safely said for CL:  it is large enough for every individual to choose their own subset and be slightly incompatible with everyone else that way.
2015-08-18T07:18:59Z nikki93: and then >>= are pure combinations of such programs
2015-08-18T07:19:02Z loke: Lokathor: Most developers ignore the entire pathname mess and just use strings.
2015-08-18T07:19:19Z H4ns: loke: for some value of "most"
2015-08-18T07:19:26Z nikki93: another way of dealing with interactivity in a functional realm is using functional reactive programming stuff like elm
2015-08-18T07:19:28Z loke: Works fine everywhere (sometimes causes some issues on Windows, but generally very minor)
2015-08-18T07:19:38Z Lokathor: well i mean the book does give a whole pathname abstraction library for you
2015-08-18T07:19:40Z loke: H4ns: You're right.
2015-08-18T07:19:54Z nikki93: if you want a more functionally biased lisp look at clojure or scheme, racket is a nice one
2015-08-18T07:20:13Z Lokathor: and it works, it just makes lisp *look bad* compared to systems that were made for just 2 or 3 filesystem types (unix/windows/maybe-mac)
2015-08-18T07:20:27Z nikki93: common lisp for me is more about being fast (SBCL) and macros, while not being against side effects and shared mutable data
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2015-08-18T07:21:00Z nikki93: look and go with some amount of depth into everything
2015-08-18T07:21:23Z nikki93: otherwise enclosure within languages causes limiting beliefs at a subconscious level
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2015-08-18T07:21:53Z Lokathor: i plan to read the rest of the book and work through the rest of the practical examples, and complete at least one small to medium project (IRC bot or Roguelike, probably)
2015-08-18T07:21:56Z nikki93: read Kuhn on scientific revolutions or Bohm's "Science, Order and Creativity" for more :)
2015-08-18T07:22:13Z nikki93: yeah, do what's fun and go with the flow. it's def satisfying
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2015-08-18T07:22:35Z nikki93: PCL --> On Lisp --> Hoyte's Let Over Lambda is a good reading progression with some amount of Keene CLOS stuff in between
2015-08-18T07:22:41Z nikki93: alongside making whatever you want
2015-08-18T07:22:57Z Lokathor: i'll say that CLOS strikes me as, in the long run, a better way to do OO than Java-style OO
2015-08-18T07:23:05Z nikki93: haha yes
2015-08-18T07:23:14Z nikki93: look at Smalltalk and Self and stuff for even better OO
2015-08-18T07:23:35Z Lokathor: i'm not sure i need more OO in my life
2015-08-18T07:23:37Z loke: nikki93: In what way is self's model better?
2015-08-18T07:23:37Z nikki93: or at least interesting OO, cuz you won't see multiple dispatch there
2015-08-18T07:23:54Z nikki93: loke: I think lack of class/instance disparities is nice
2015-08-18T07:24:21Z nikki93: I shouldn'tve said better, because that implies some sort of externally imposed common scale of goodness, like a morality
2015-08-18T07:24:26Z nikki93: just, 'interesting'
2015-08-18T07:24:53Z nikki93: in a "let's go with this and see waht happens" sort of way
2015-08-18T07:24:55Z loke: Fair enough.
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2015-08-18T07:25:20Z nikki93: self's UI stuff is def super interesting though
2015-08-18T07:25:23Z Lokathor: i actually read a very long essay one time about how OO might be the wrong path for future computing as a whole, because of how much it tends to restrict paralellism/concurrency/multicore
2015-08-18T07:25:51Z nikki93: can you link this essay
2015-08-18T07:25:59Z loke: Lokathor: That would definitely concentrate too much on a specific implementation of object orientations.
2015-08-18T07:26:05Z nikki93: yeah
2015-08-18T07:26:21Z nikki93: OO is basically equivalent to closures that select based on parameter received
2015-08-18T07:26:26Z Lokathor: yeah they were definitely talking more like java/C++ i take it
2015-08-18T07:26:43Z Lokathor: let's see if i have a bookmark
2015-08-18T07:26:50Z loke: Lokathor: the problems with C++ and Java extends far beyond that of the object orientation model chosen.
2015-08-18T07:27:31Z Lokathor: right :P
2015-08-18T07:27:33Z Lokathor: http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/object-oriented-programming-is-an-expensive-disaster-which-must-end
2015-08-18T07:27:39Z Lokathor: fair warning, it's a loooooong article
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2015-08-18T07:28:29Z Lokathor: right near the beginning though the writer casts lisps as being not among OOP languages, which alone is sorta telling of what they mean by "OOP languages"
2015-08-18T07:29:07Z Lokathor: you could write a very OOP lisp program, you just often don't feel the need i expect
2015-08-18T07:29:39Z nikki93: "I have seen hyper-intelligent people waste countless hours discussing how to wire together a system of Dependency Injection that will allow us to instantiate our objects correctly. This, to me, is the great sadness of OOP: so many brilliant minds have been wasted on a useless dogma that inflicts much pain, for no benefit."
2015-08-18T07:29:44Z loke: Lokathor: yeah, that suggests that the authour either doesn't know what he's talking about or that he intentionally limits the definition of "object orientation" to serve a purpose.
2015-08-18T07:29:48Z nikki93: yeah that is a certain style that you don't see much in Smalltalk and such
2015-08-18T07:29:56Z Bike: what's OOP got to do with multiprogramming? can't CAS things?
2015-08-18T07:30:13Z Lokathor: well as they go on they very much are targeting C++/Java type OOP
2015-08-18T07:30:17Z Lokathor: rather than all possible OOP
2015-08-18T07:30:18Z nikki93: the thign is
2015-08-18T07:30:30Z nikki93: you /can/ do OOP in Y doesn't mean that's what it would encourage
2015-08-18T07:30:37Z loke: nikki93: Haha. I agree. I've aksed the question "Why don't you just use "new"?", and I have gotten weird looks and comments such as "but, but... flexibility!".
2015-08-18T07:30:47Z nikki93: ultimately what the tool is is sometihng that is meant to inspire humans to behave in a certain way, or to make certain things easier
2015-08-18T07:30:55Z nikki93: even to an extent, to enhance satisfaction and fun
2015-08-18T07:31:03Z loke: To which I answer: "are you seriously, _ever_ going to iunstantiate anything other than that instance in this code?"
2015-08-18T07:31:08Z nikki93: to that end, maybe objects are nice because of them being so quickly intuitive
2015-08-18T07:31:10Z Lokathor: i worked at a company once where a guy tried to introduce me to spring and dependency injection and all that with java
2015-08-18T07:31:20Z loke: And even if you do, would it be done in a sitaution where you can't recompile?
2015-08-18T07:31:21Z Lokathor: i said "why do you need this exactly?" and he couldn't tell me
2015-08-18T07:31:36Z nikki93: loke: haha, yeah. that sort of things seems to be needed more when you have static typing, no?
2015-08-18T07:31:38Z loke: Lokathor: Exactly.
2015-08-18T07:31:46Z nikki93: loke: because with late-binding-ey stuff it becomes way more flexible
2015-08-18T07:32:03Z loke: nikki93: Yes, but even then you can implement it with a 3-line factory class. No need to have dependency injection and massive XML files.
2015-08-18T07:32:20Z Lokathor: oh there were massive XML files, let me tell you
2015-08-18T07:32:23Z loke: Besides, xrefs in the IDE works better when you have proper class references and no go through magic XML-driven factories.
2015-08-18T07:32:34Z nikki93: it's like a constant tension between underimplemented static typing (as opposed to Haskell's) and an effort to make everything dynamic and more human (as opposed to true dynamic a la smalltalk or lisp)
2015-08-18T07:32:37Z Lokathor: and a 2 minute build process, most of which was just running hash checks on jar files rather than literal compiling
2015-08-18T07:32:51Z Lokathor: all the stuff people hate about java
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2015-08-18T07:33:52Z nikki93: I've come to care more about programming as a personal experience and almost an artistic one
2015-08-18T07:34:15Z nikki93: and in that realm lispy/smalltalky stuff is a lot of fun
2015-08-18T07:34:24Z loke: nikki93: Nothing wrong with flexibility, if you need it. My point is that there is no need to build this enormous construction of this stuff until you need it. Then you can rip out this "new" call and replace by the dependncy stuff, but only when it's needed.
2015-08-18T07:34:51Z nikki93: loke: yeah. the trouble is that those languages are usually pretty bad with allowing future abstraction after initial concretization
2015-08-18T07:35:25Z nikki93: loke: you have to be some sort of oracle and predict everything you would need so you can abstract it as a preemptive measure lol
2015-08-18T07:35:26Z Lokathor: *nods
2015-08-18T07:35:37Z Zhivago: That's the price of enforcing consistency.
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2015-08-18T07:35:52Z nikki93: yup
2015-08-18T07:35:54Z Zhivago: You can choose to pay the price of not enforcing consistency, instead. :)
2015-08-18T07:36:15Z Zhivago: But you're going to pay either way, so it ends up being a question of how much you care about consistency.
2015-08-18T07:36:44Z loke: nikki93: Yes. But on the other hand Java does have the best IDE's out there, which is what makes it bearable. You can extract constructs using a single keypress. That's their workaround, and it works decently.
2015-08-18T07:36:45Z Zhivago: And that decision is determined almost entirely by the number of collaborators, imho.
2015-08-18T07:37:13Z nikki93: loke: the extraction comes out of the static type info available. like x.<complete> works only cuz you know what x type is
2015-08-18T07:37:26Z nikki93: an alternative is to always have a running context, in which case you know /exactly/ what x is and not just its type
2015-08-18T07:37:38Z nikki93: which is available in a prototype-based world because no longer are you working with abstract classes
2015-08-18T07:37:43Z nikki93: you are working with actual objects, which are tangible
2015-08-18T07:37:48Z nikki93: and can answer questions you ask them
2015-08-18T07:37:52Z Zhivago: Well, to be fair, java provides that via reflection.
2015-08-18T07:38:40Z nikki93: Zhivago: right but (defun foo (x) x.<complete>) [sorry for syntax] wouldn't work cuz you don't know much about x
2015-08-18T07:38:58Z nikki93: on the other hand if somehow foo kept running as you were writing it, you would know what x was
2015-08-18T07:39:03Z Zhivago: And it won't work using dynamic values, since it's a lexical decision, anyhow.
2015-08-18T07:39:17Z nikki93: like if you were writing foo during a debug breakpoint
2015-08-18T07:39:23Z nikki93: this is often what is done in a smalltalk session, code during debug
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2015-08-18T07:39:37Z Zhivago: Then you'd be making lexical choices based on random dynamic values.
2015-08-18T07:39:46Z nikki93: it's not random
2015-08-18T07:39:57Z Zhivago: It's whatever random thing happens to be bound there at a time.
2015-08-18T07:39:59Z nikki93: it's due to where foo is called when the program runs
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2015-08-18T07:40:10Z nikki93: right
2015-08-18T07:40:16Z Zhivago: If you wanted to make that work properly, you'd want to look at the statistical distribution of things bound there over N runs.
2015-08-18T07:40:31Z Zhivago: Which might give you a reasonable basis for making lexical decisions with.
2015-08-18T07:40:53Z Zhivago: Of course, that brings you back toward a declarative system, but that's to be expected, since this is a lexical rather than dynamic problem.
2015-08-18T07:40:58Z nikki93: right, under current notions of dynamic vs. static typing either-or case, this is the way
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2015-08-18T07:41:18Z nikki93: a future where somehow this worked to make it good for you would be cool, haha
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2015-08-18T07:41:39Z Zhivago: Well, the truth is that dynamic typing is pretty much nonsense.
2015-08-18T07:41:52Z nikki93: as in 'useless'
2015-08-18T07:41:55Z nikki93: or 'error prone'
2015-08-18T07:41:59Z Zhivago: As in a meaningless term.
2015-08-18T07:42:24Z Zhivago: Saying run-time polymorphic dispatch or whatever you actually mean might avoid the problem.
2015-08-18T07:42:37Z nikki93: I've understood it as a loose version of "we don't know what type this is by looking at the code"
2015-08-18T07:43:24Z Zhivago: In which case you don't have types.
2015-08-18T07:43:35Z nikki93: it's interesting because haskell's case bla of Constructor1 x y z -> stuff; Constructor2 x -> stuff [I forget the syntax] is similar to runtime dispatch almost
2015-08-18T07:43:36Z Zhivago: Just dispatch tags of some kind.
2015-08-18T07:43:59Z nikki93: I've seen it used well
2015-08-18T07:44:09Z nikki93: in other cases I've seen it as a way to hide dynamic typing within haskell
2015-08-18T07:44:36Z nikki93: in any case
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2015-08-18T07:45:31Z nikki93: the way I've seen Smalltalk implement ifTrue: by implementing the message differently in the True and False classes both deriving from Boolean is one of my favorite things
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2015-08-18T08:33:13Z jackdaniel: if I want to call lambda-block stored in variable which isn't a function, my only resort is eval ?
2015-08-18T08:33:36Z jackdaniel: (ie type definition)
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2015-08-18T08:37:19Z ggole: What do you mean? You have a variable that is a *list* (lambda ...) and want to call that?
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2015-08-18T08:39:32Z jackdaniel: I have function of two arguments, where first is whole call and second is environment and it returns expansion of call provided as first argument
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2015-08-18T08:40:26Z jackdaniel: (sorry if it isn't clear – I'm confused a little with these things)
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2015-08-18T08:41:11Z ggole: Yeah, I'm not following
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2015-08-18T08:46:00Z jackdaniel: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node97.html - second paragraph – I have expansion function and want to expand it in code
2015-08-18T08:47:54Z jackdaniel: (funcall #'my-expansion whole-call nil) would be correct invocation?
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2015-08-18T08:50:00Z ggole: Oh, I see: by "not a function" you're referring to namespaces
2015-08-18T08:50:31Z jackdaniel: yeah
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2015-08-18T08:50:57Z ggole: So #' isn't the right thing here: it's for getting something that is in the function namespace as a value
2015-08-18T08:51:03Z ggole: Just use the variable
2015-08-18T08:51:06Z ggole: (funcall f arg)
2015-08-18T08:51:56Z jackdaniel: (funcall f call NIL)  that is
2015-08-18T08:52:30Z jackdaniel: ok, I'll go forward with that – thanks
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2015-08-18T09:20:48Z jackdaniel: it actually works – /me feels one tiny bit smarter then 3 hours before :-)
2015-08-18T09:22:32Z jackdaniel: s/before/ago/
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2015-08-18T09:48:46Z rm-r: hello
2015-08-18T09:48:58Z rm-r: scheme source file have .scheme extension
2015-08-18T09:48:59Z rm-r: right ?
2015-08-18T09:49:13Z rm-r: or nope ?
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2015-08-18T09:50:25Z jackdaniel: guix devs use scm, but what is general rule – i don't know
2015-08-18T09:50:41Z jackdaniel: you better ask at #scheme
2015-08-18T09:51:06Z jackdaniel: is there case, where something is cons and symbol at the same time?
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2015-08-18T09:51:22Z jackdaniel: that is (and (consp obj) (symbolp obj)) --> T ?
2015-08-18T09:52:47Z jackdaniel: unlikely at least (I've found  such cond clause)
2015-08-18T09:53:19Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-08-18T09:53:23Z jackdaniel: ok, it was definetely dev typo – can read it from following code
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2015-08-18T11:18:57Z dim: hey
2015-08-18T11:19:17Z dim: jackdaniel: did you have a change to quickload pgloader again? I fixed the problem with the labels
2015-08-18T11:20:03Z jackdaniel: dim: I'm loading it with local pgloader from repo
2015-08-18T11:20:07Z jackdaniel: and it loads fine
2015-08-18T11:20:33Z jackdaniel: I've got your memo, so tested it
2015-08-18T11:20:51Z jackdaniel: mind that I'm using ecl from repository
2015-08-18T11:24:53Z dim: yeah that's why I didn't test myself, I didn't compile ecl from repo yet, not sure I will be able to spend time on that parts
2015-08-18T11:25:44Z dim: jackdaniel: do you happen to have a PostgreSQL service running? would you go as far as running some tests? threads etc
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2015-08-18T11:29:17Z jackdaniel: tel, bb 10m
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2015-08-18T11:32:09Z jackdaniel: dim: compilation is nobrainer – http://paste.lisp.org/display/153864
2015-08-18T11:33:06Z jackdaniel: I don't have, but fwiw postrgresql configuration is a nightmare – but I'm not admin-type guy – probably for admins it's easy
2015-08-18T11:33:37Z jackdaniel: nightmare for some low values of nightmare – I mean digging manual for 20 or so commands
2015-08-18T11:34:53Z dim: it's not a nigthmare, it's just restrictive by default in terms of security, so in general (depends on the distribution) you have to edit pg_hba.conf, which is a special file syntax
2015-08-18T11:35:37Z dim: you can also su - postgres then createuser -DR "your login"
2015-08-18T11:35:44Z jackdaniel: I'm standing in a spot, where postgres is *foreign* knowledge – everything from this spot is a nightmare ;)
2015-08-18T11:35:44Z dim: and then in your unix account you can createdb
2015-08-18T11:35:52Z dim: I see what you mean
2015-08-18T11:36:07Z dim: just trying to give you just enough tricks that it's easy again ;-)
2015-08-18T11:36:37Z jackdaniel: I'm finishing deftype conformity fix for ecl and want to apply similar fix to abcl
2015-08-18T11:36:51Z dim: basically every distro allows "peer" connections: same username in postgres and unix, create a role for you in PostgreSQL of the same name and off you go (allow the pg role to create databases for more fun)
2015-08-18T11:37:07Z dim: I won't distrub you more than that then
2015-08-18T11:37:11Z dim: thanks already for what you did
2015-08-18T11:37:14Z dim: will take it from here
2015-08-18T11:37:31Z jackdaniel: dim: sure, if you have any problems on ecl side – drop me a memo :)
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2015-08-18T11:39:02Z dim: sure, I will
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2015-08-18T12:30:29Z flip214: For the various databases there are a few CL libraries to access them. Is there one that, similar to the way cl-ppcre does it, creates the SQL commands during compilation?
2015-08-18T12:31:19Z flip214: Perhaps even if there are different conditions being used (Like "if a name is given, restrict result set by 'name LIKE ?'")?
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2015-08-18T12:31:50Z flip214: so, "creates" during compilation is wrong, but "prepares SQL snippets that only get concatenated during runtime"?
2015-08-18T12:32:42Z flip214: hmmm, thinking about that a bit more I guess it would be even better to do these conditionals *within* the SQL, to keep the SQL query itself constant (to facilitate caching & reuse on the DB side)
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2015-08-18T12:33:52Z flip214: ie. "WHERE ... AND CASE WHEN ? IS NULL THEN 1=1 ELSE name LIKE ?"  with (name, name) as arguments
2015-08-18T12:34:21Z PuercoPop: flip214: Seems to me you are looking for SxQL
2015-08-18T12:34:38Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/fukamachi/sxql
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2015-08-18T12:36:03Z flip214: PuercoPop: thanks for the link.
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2015-08-18T12:36:39Z flip214: does that allow incremental building, ie. starting a base query in one function, and enhancing/restricting in another one? my first look tells me it's "just" a macro...
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2015-08-18T15:04:26Z spew: cd 15
2015-08-18T15:04:30Z spew: woops
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2015-08-18T15:05:17Z pjb: at least it doesn't look like your password.
2015-08-18T15:05:46Z spew: that's why it is such a good password
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2015-08-18T15:08:26Z ggole: Nice descriptive directory name there
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2015-08-18T15:08:59Z isBEKaml: it's probably zsh, with addons like oh-my-zsh :-)
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2015-08-18T15:37:17Z jackdaniel: (list 1 2 3) is good enough password
2015-08-18T15:37:22Z jackdaniel: hackers hate parens ;-)
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2015-08-18T15:40:58Z ejbs: Why is it that local-package-nicknames must be implemented by the implementation and not as a userland library? Is it because of how the reader handles symbols?
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2015-08-18T15:41:34Z jackdaniel: ejbs: sounds plausible
2015-08-18T15:41:43Z ejbs: (the only way that I can come up with implementin it is thru writing a reader macro for #\( so yeah)
2015-08-18T15:42:01Z Xach: ejbs: yes.
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2015-08-18T15:48:31Z pjb: ejbs: indeed.
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2015-08-18T15:49:16Z pjb: ejbs: .array:*version*
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2015-08-18T15:50:49Z pjb: ejbs: or more probably, you'll want array:*version*  to refer to the local package named "ARRAY" is you will have to actually put a reader macro on all the constituent characters, with the afferent difficulties (modularity vs. other reader macros, char-code-limit #| --> 1114112 |#  and O(n) implementation of readtables).
2015-08-18T15:52:49Z ejbs: pjb: Right, I see it now.
2015-08-18T15:53:09Z jasom: And this is why I would like readers to have a callback when interning a symbol (alternatively a non O(n) readtable implementation could work)
2015-08-18T15:53:57Z jasom: pjb has a reader implementation that has such a callback, and I have bound it to every single character in the readtable to try out different ways of interning
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2015-08-18T16:44:26Z magistr: lisp supports TCO?
2015-08-18T16:45:00Z Xach: magistr: common lisp implementations generally support it in some situations.
2015-08-18T16:45:33Z fe[nl]ix: magistr: a standard can only require or allow, it's actual implementations that support features
2015-08-18T16:45:38Z fe[nl]ix: and, what Xach said
2015-08-18T16:45:49Z fe[nl]ix: it's not mandatory
2015-08-18T16:45:51Z magistr: Xach, Common Lisp is awful, it is not have a normal documentation
2015-08-18T16:46:00Z dlowe: therefore it's not something you can portably depend on
2015-08-18T16:46:10Z Xach: magistr: ok. this is a channel for common lisp. if you want info about something else, this is not a good place.
2015-08-18T16:46:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2015-08-18T16:47:04Z magistr: common lisp is a shity language
2015-08-18T16:47:09Z p_l has set mode +b *!~magistr@*
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2015-08-18T16:47:33Z magistr [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (quit your trolling, you do not bring any worth to the world channel jumping with shitty arguments)
2015-08-18T16:47:39Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: you're a quick shot :D
2015-08-18T16:48:18Z antoszka: (incf *p_l-karma*)
2015-08-18T16:48:26Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: no, I noticed a known-to-me troll
2015-08-18T16:48:55Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2015-08-18T16:49:08Z antoszka: If those people have so much free time on their hands why don't they put it to sensible use. That baffles me.
2015-08-18T16:49:08Z Xach: not much history here on #lisp
2015-08-18T16:49:11Z schjetne: It usually start with the same stupid questions that are trivial to look up
2015-08-18T16:49:23Z schjetne: Sometimes it goes on for hours
2015-08-18T16:50:12Z Xach: If I had infinite time, I'd gather and share some of the rich history of CL trolls
2015-08-18T16:50:19Z Xach: Some of them are pretty breathtaking
2015-08-18T16:50:43Z dlowe: antoszka: the people with loads of free time on the Internet are the mentally ill, children, and the homeless.
2015-08-18T16:50:49Z Xach: I suppose it is in some large percent due to sad mental illness
2015-08-18T16:50:56Z p_l: Xach: guy might have followed me based on my channel list… though I think there are more people we share with #erlounge and other erlang channels
2015-08-18T16:51:55Z schjetne: Are people's channel lists public?
2015-08-18T16:52:06Z oleo: a whois will tell you
2015-08-18T16:52:16Z oleo: normally
2015-08-18T16:52:25Z schjetne: That only seems to show the channels you have in common
2015-08-18T16:52:32Z antoszka: dlowe: But then -- would you expect them to know about CL and ask semi-informed questions... This must be some special kind.
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2015-08-18T16:56:02Z drmeister: I was told last week that there are only two programming languages with ANSI standards, Common Lisp and C - I've been googling to try and verify that - does anyone know of any other ANSI standard languages?
2015-08-18T16:56:45Z rme: That sounds fishy to me.
2015-08-18T16:56:49Z Xach: drmeister: forth
2015-08-18T16:57:02Z rme: Ada, Cobol?
2015-08-18T16:57:03Z dlowe: fortran, forth and cobol all have ansi standards
2015-08-18T16:57:04Z oleo: prolog
2015-08-18T16:57:12Z drmeister: I found this:  http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4111
2015-08-18T16:57:22Z Xach: yes, but besites lisp, c, forth, cobol, and fortran, what have the romans ever done for us.
2015-08-18T16:57:29Z oleo: lol
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2015-08-18T16:57:47Z drmeister: There you go, there is definitely a fortran ANSI standard.
2015-08-18T16:57:51Z oleo: jup
2015-08-18T16:58:53Z dwchandler: and if you widen it to ISO standards there are more
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2015-08-18T16:59:46Z drmeister: Ok, so what I was told wasn't correct.
2015-08-18T17:00:10Z oleo: who told you it ?
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2015-08-18T17:00:50Z oleo: are the iso standards of later date than the ansi ones ?
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2015-08-18T17:04:31Z drmeister: I don't reveal my erroneous sources.
2015-08-18T17:04:32Z drmeister: :-)
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2015-08-18T17:05:05Z oleo: :)
2015-08-18T17:05:08Z rme: Heh. A generous and kind policy.
2015-08-18T17:05:50Z antoszka: I think SQL has an ANSI standard, too.
2015-08-18T17:06:26Z oleo: hahhaha SQL xD
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2015-08-18T17:10:04Z antoszka: yeah ;)
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2015-08-18T17:15:41Z |3b|: typing in various x3j* into google suggests pl/i, minimal basic, fortran, cobol, ?, ?, apt, ?, pascal, apl, c, dibol, cl, forth, databus, pl/b, c++, prolog, rexx, smalltalk, smalltalk were at least considered for ansi standards
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2015-08-18T17:35:01Z p_l: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl <--- might be of interest
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2015-08-18T18:28:45Z jlarocco_work: it would be nice if it indicated when the library was last updated
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2015-08-18T18:29:31Z jlarocco_work: i was using cl-mongo a bit a while back, and it works well, but is missing some stuff, and isn't compatible with the newest versions of MongoDB
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2015-08-18T18:29:46Z jlarocco_work: and it's on the list under databases
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2015-08-18T18:31:19Z jlarocco_work: I was meaning to make it compatible and submit some pull requests, but didn't have the time, and then switched projects and haven't needed MongoDB lately
2015-08-18T18:32:55Z jlarocco_work: also, isn't there already an easier to navigate list on Cliki?
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2015-08-18T18:34:41Z jlarocco_work: it might be more useful if it were more selective.  Like why list two JSON libraries and four XML parsers?
2015-08-18T18:34:56Z jlarocco_work: they're not even compatible
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2015-08-18T18:39:01Z pjb: There would be little point of having several libraries if they were compatible.
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2015-08-18T18:41:21Z jlarocco_work: true
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2015-08-18T19:20:38Z bjorkintosh: any of you read 'the semantics of destructive lisp'?
2015-08-18T19:21:54Z Bike: i think i did, once.
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2015-08-18T19:22:37Z bjorkintosh: is it a good book? can't seem to find much about it online.
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2015-08-18T19:23:08Z bjorkintosh: no amazon reviews :)
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2015-08-18T19:24:12Z Bike: it's really technical and the technicalities are probably not important to most programmers.
2015-08-18T19:25:02Z bjorkintosh: something something model theory. certainly don't know anything about that.
2015-08-18T19:25:11Z bjorkintosh: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/computer-science/artificial-intelligence-and-natural-language-processing/semantics-destructive-lisp
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2015-08-18T19:58:01Z phf: bjorkintosh: available at http://sul-derivatives.stanford.edu/derivative?CSNID=00000086&mediaType=application/pdf as a 70mb scan pdf
2015-08-18T19:58:23Z bjorkintosh: phf, doesn't make it any more readable :)
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2015-08-18T19:58:54Z bjorkintosh: i've already looked at it, and it certainly doesn't look anything like any other book on lisp i've seen so far.
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2015-08-18T20:01:59Z phf: bjorkintosh: it looks like the kind of stuff haskell heads put out by the reams ;)
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2015-08-18T20:02:59Z phf: "it's a homomorphism but is it bijective! read these exciting 40 pages of wasted grunt money on to find out!"
2015-08-18T20:03:01Z phf ducks
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2015-08-18T20:04:00Z bjorkintosh: akademischsprache!
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2015-08-18T20:04:18Z bjorkintosh: yes. i coined a new word for bullshit :)
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2015-08-18T20:06:38Z antoszka: :)
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2015-08-18T21:08:03Z Lokathor: yesterday i was told that SBCL wouldn't always perform tail call optimizations
2015-08-18T21:08:20Z Lokathor: but the docs for SBCL says that SBCL does always do tail call optimization
2015-08-18T21:08:26Z Lokathor: do i trust the docs?
2015-08-18T21:08:35Z oleo: only in some optimization level.....
2015-08-18T21:08:53Z oleo: make sure which.....
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2015-08-18T21:09:26Z Lokathor: it says that it happens unless debug is above 2
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2015-08-18T21:10:44Z oleo: speed 3, debug 2 ?
2015-08-18T21:11:11Z oleo: is that for compiled stuff or runtime too ?
2015-08-18T21:11:32Z Lokathor: i dunno it only talks about the value of the debug flag
2015-08-18T21:11:53Z Lokathor: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Debug-Tail-Recursion
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2015-08-18T21:15:45Z oleo: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html#sec-2-2
2015-08-18T21:16:26Z oleo:      (declaim (optimize #+sbcl (sb-c::merge-tail-calls 3) #+sbcl (sb-c::insert-debug-catch 0)))
2015-08-18T21:16:36Z oleo: (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3)))
2015-08-18T21:16:47Z oleo: tho you can hold debug at 2
2015-08-18T21:16:58Z oleo:     Tail-merging is done if (> SPACE DEBUG) or (> SPEED DEBUG) – not by default.
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2015-08-18T21:19:46Z oleo: in addition
2015-08-18T21:19:48Z oleo: http://www.cliki.net/tail%20recursion
2015-08-18T21:20:00Z Lokathor: so do space and speed default to 2 then?
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2015-08-18T21:22:31Z oleo: and here http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.general/3271
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2015-08-18T21:23:30Z Lokathor: yes. and "if (> SPACE DEBUG) or (> SPEED DEBUG) -- not by default." matches up with the docs saying "it's prevented when the debug optimization quality is greater than 2."
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2015-08-18T21:23:50Z Lokathor: assuming that speed and space default to 2
2015-08-18T21:24:02Z Lokathor: it seems a strange setup
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2015-08-18T21:24:50Z Lokathor: apparently (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3))) will enable it for sure
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2015-08-18T21:25:55Z oleo: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/compiler/policies.lisp
2015-08-18T21:26:21Z oleo: seems so Lokator
2015-08-18T21:26:30Z oleo: that should do it yes
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2015-08-18T21:59:41Z AeroNotix: hey all - I'm getting "The value NIL is not of type SB-C:POLICY.
2015-08-18T21:59:42Z AeroNotix: "
2015-08-18T21:59:52Z AeroNotix: when I try to C-c C-c a form in Emacs with SLIME
2015-08-18T22:00:12Z AeroNotix: Google suggests putting some setting in .sbclrc to get it to work, but leaves no explanation
2015-08-18T22:01:57Z AeroNotix: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31105654/type-error-when-compiling-sbcl-defun-in-aquamacs-with-slime specifically this
2015-08-18T22:03:02Z AeroNotix: sbcl version 1.2.12
2015-08-18T22:04:03Z AeroNotix: SLIME 2.14
2015-08-18T22:04:09Z phf: AeroNotix: there's xach's comment on the first answer, which seems to imply there's a disconnect between some version of slime and some version of sbcl
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2015-08-18T22:05:06Z akkad: is Edi the only one who does not use emacs?
2015-08-18T22:07:36Z AeroNotix: phf: ok
2015-08-18T22:07:38Z AeroNotix: thanks
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2015-08-18T22:15:57Z aeth: What's the difference between an instance of an object X and something that is of type Y? e.g. (type-of (list 1 2 3)) is CONS and (class-of (list 1 2 3)) is #<BUILT-IN-CLASS CONS>
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2015-08-18T22:32:11Z XachX: aeth: an object may be of many types but only one class
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2015-08-18T22:34:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: Why doesn't type-of return a list then?
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2015-08-18T22:40:22Z pillton just bought Lisp in Small Pieces.
2015-08-18T22:42:42Z XachX: Petit_Dejeuner: I don't know. Perhaps because it would use a lot of resources to find out.
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2015-08-18T22:57:05Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: consider SATISFIES types
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2015-08-18T23:01:40Z pillton: or MEMBER types.
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2015-08-18T23:14:30Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: because there is no LIST type in lisp!
2015-08-18T23:14:48Z pjb: (type-of '()) #| --> null |#  (type-of '(1)) #| --> cons |#
2015-08-18T23:15:06Z pjb: no list to be seen here.  list == (or null cons).
2015-08-18T23:15:19Z pjb: Notice that (subtypep 'null 'symbol) #| --> t ; t |#
2015-08-18T23:16:43Z PuercoPop: If a quicklisp update botched due to a network error halfway through the download, how do force an update?
2015-08-18T23:16:57Z PuercoPop: it refuses to update because it thinks it is up to date
2015-08-18T23:17:57Z pjb: rm -rf ~/quicklisp/ and start over?
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2015-08-18T23:19:01Z XachX: PuercoPop: everything is fetched on demand when needed.
2015-08-18T23:19:13Z XachX: PuercoPop: you might not need to do anything.
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2015-08-18T23:20:36Z PuercoPop: XachX: I'm pretty sure that is not the case. http://paste.lisp.org/+3AQN
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2015-08-18T23:21:12Z PuercoPop: I got a socket something error halfway through the fetch and pressed the retry restart which failed to do.
2015-08-18T23:21:44Z XachX: PuercoPop: there is no problem. Everything will work.
2015-08-18T23:27:34Z rvirding: pillton: +1
2015-08-18T23:30:24Z PuercoPop: XachX: You are right. Sorry for the noise.
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2015-08-18T23:41:36Z pillton: Petit_Dejeuner: You would also have to define some sort of useful representation too. e.g. (integer (0)) is equivalent to '(and integer (not (integer * (0)))).
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2015-08-18T23:45:28Z pillton: Actually numbers are a good example. (typep x `(integer ,(- x n) ,(+ x n))) is true for all n >= 0.
2015-08-18T23:45:33Z XachX: No worries. It's not obvious. No docs!
2015-08-18T23:45:35Z |3b|: integers are of an infinite number of types
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2015-08-18T23:46:48Z Fare: pillton: for which this doesn't result in an OOM error.
2015-08-18T23:48:20Z pillton: Fare: You and your constraints. Finite memory. Sheesh.
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2015-08-18T23:49:03Z |3b|: Fare: still prohibits enumerating them all at once though
2015-08-18T23:50:10Z pjb: (loop for i from 0 for j from -1 by -1 do (thing i) (thing j)) ; works nicely.
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2015-08-19T00:30:02Z Xach: Does anyone have an ISO 8601 format string handy for a decoded time, with time zone?
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2015-08-19T00:30:29Z Xach: local-time abstracts it into a general time formatting system. i was hoping for something more immediate
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2015-08-19T00:40:49Z Xach: tusen tack
2015-08-19T00:40:54Z rme: Xach: sent you mail with a function I use.  I got it from somewhere, but I can't remember where.
2015-08-19T00:41:11Z Xach wishes for fast global codebase searches for things like this
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2015-08-19T00:41:52Z Xach: rme: perfect, thanks
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2015-08-19T00:49:21Z Fare: quux-time ?
2015-08-19T00:50:10Z Fare wonders how much of quux can really be salvaged
2015-08-19T00:50:58Z Xach: Fare: it looks like that includes a time formatting system to do the work also.
2015-08-19T00:51:45Z Xach: I am looking for something I can stick into a file directly without any extra support code.
2015-08-19T00:51:52Z Xach: rme has helped me out with just such a thing
2015-08-19T00:52:36Z hydan: In Emacs conf 2013 Luke Gorrie mentions that the way SLIME prints lisp objects is based on somebody's PhD thesis, anybody know where I can find that paper? here is the link where he mentions it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDWJfB9XY4#t=286
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2015-08-19T01:16:52Z rjeli_: does anyone know the solution to SWANK/BACKEND:ADD-FD-HANDLER not implented?
2015-08-19T01:17:00Z rjeli_: CCL 1.10, emacs 24.4, mac os x
2015-08-19T01:17:16Z rjeli_: *implemented
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2015-08-19T01:20:29Z Xach: I use that combination, but haven't encountered any trouble or error related to that symbol.
2015-08-19T01:24:07Z rjeli_: do you have dotfiles online somewhere?
2015-08-19T01:24:11Z rjeli_: looked on your GH
2015-08-19T01:24:45Z Xach: No. I use quicklisp-slime-helper to set up slime, and use C-u M-x slime to start ccl 1.10
2015-08-19T01:25:05Z rjeli_: thanks
2015-08-19T01:26:40Z pjb: Xach: (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye dow ds tz) (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time) -17/2) (declare (ignore dow ds)) (format nil "~4,'0D~2,'0D~2,'0DT~2,'0D~2,'0D~2,'0D~:[+~;-~]~2,'0D~2,'0D" ye mo da ho mi se (plusp tz) (truncate (abs tz)) (mod (truncate (abs tz) 1/60) 60))) #| --> "20150819T095639+0830" |#
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2015-08-19T01:27:08Z pjb: Xach: the trick is to remember to change the sign of the timezone.
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2015-08-19T01:27:27Z Xach: I am not in -17/2
2015-08-19T01:27:36Z pjb: No,this is North Korea time zone.
2015-08-19T01:27:38Z pjb: You adapt.
2015-08-19T01:27:55Z Xach: I am in a zone with DST
2015-08-19T01:28:02Z Xach: I cannot afford to ignore it
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2015-08-19T01:28:06Z Xach: Lives may depend on it
2015-08-19T01:28:49Z pjb: If you don't pass a timezone parameter, you get the local time adjusted for daylight saving.
2015-08-19T01:29:13Z pjb: You asked for a format, not for a management of time zones.
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2015-08-19T01:29:35Z pjb: I mention that, because relying on the implementation might not be prudent.
2015-08-19T01:30:44Z pjb: Therefore my advice would be to explicitely pass the correct timezone argument.
2015-08-19T01:31:39Z Xach: I don't trust your implementation. What if it deletes all my files?
2015-08-19T01:31:53Z Xach: I am glad I already have a good answer!
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2015-08-19T01:57:08Z rjeli_: still can't get it to work
2015-08-19T01:57:23Z rjeli_: trying to use ccl instead of sbcl because sbcl doesnt see all locals in backtraces
2015-08-19T01:57:27Z rjeli_: even with debug 3
2015-08-19T01:57:52Z Xach: rjeli_: How did you get slime?
2015-08-19T01:58:04Z rjeli_: package-install slime
2015-08-19T01:58:38Z rjeli_: i get the error on both terminal and desktop emacs
2015-08-19T01:59:49Z rme: I believe that the fd-handler scheme is specific to cmucl/sbcl.  CCL typically uses :spawn as swank:*communication-style*, which is the common default, but I have no idea how your packaged slime is set up.
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2015-08-19T02:02:38Z rme: rjeli_: I suppose you could put "(setq swank:*communication-style* :spawn)" in ~/.swank.lisp and see if that helps you.
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2015-08-19T02:08:01Z rjeli_: thanks!! i forgot that file existed
2015-08-19T02:08:08Z rjeli_: i was setting it to fd-handler a long time ago
2015-08-19T02:08:27Z rjeli_: rme
2015-08-19T02:08:39Z Xach: deleting the file could help, too. then
2015-08-19T02:08:52Z rjeli_: yes, works now
2015-08-19T02:08:55Z rjeli_: ty :-)
2015-08-19T02:08:56Z Xach wonders why on earth he's getting an errno=13 permission problem when using rename-file in allegro, but not in ccl, on windows
2015-08-19T02:10:24Z rme: CCL first deletes any existing file with the target new name.  Maybe Allegro doesn't.
2015-08-19T02:11:22Z Xach: the target doesn't exist in this case. and i can also call what seems like an identical rename-file interactively. i have to isolate it and figure out what's up.
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2015-08-19T02:11:51Z Xach: ohhh, hmm, i am attempting to rename while it's still open. i wonder if that's part of the problem.
2015-08-19T02:12:02Z rme: Almost certainly that's it.
2015-08-19T02:13:55Z Xach shuffles things around and retries
2015-08-19T02:16:49Z Xach: rme: why might ccl not encounter the same problem?
2015-08-19T02:17:31Z rme: Good question.  We use _wunlink and _wrename.  Maybe Allegro uses something else?
2015-08-19T02:19:20Z Xach: ok. well, moving it out of the w-o-f fixed the issue, anyway, so it's an idle speculation for another day.
2015-08-19T02:19:38Z Xach declares victory for tuesday, retires
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2015-08-19T03:18:43Z drmeister: Yeehaw!  I can tag and untag a va_list in C++.    This means faster generic function dispatch for Clasp.
2015-08-19T03:19:22Z drmeister: You won't read about this trick on the interwebs folks, I think I invented it.
2015-08-19T03:19:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/prqsyvqd/
2015-08-19T03:20:41Z Oladon: drmeister: Congrats! :)
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2015-08-19T03:20:58Z drmeister: I have been thwarted by the C++ compiler from casting a pointer to a va_list in any useful way.  But I can wrap a va_list within another struct and then allocate that struct on the stack, obtain a pointer, tag the pointer, pass the tagged pointer to another function (and importantly through Common Lisp functions), untag the pointer and then recover the
2015-08-19T03:20:58Z drmeister: va_list to obtain the arguments on the stack.
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2015-08-19T03:23:17Z drmeister: It might even be portable to different ABI's but I'll believe it when I see it.
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2015-08-19T03:27:10Z Bike: jesus christ how horrifying.
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2015-08-19T03:28:16Z Bike: Why three?
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2015-08-19T03:41:34Z drmeister: Bike: was that for me?
2015-08-19T03:41:38Z drmeister: Why three?
2015-08-19T03:41:55Z drmeister: I'm spelunking in the darkest corners of C++.
2015-08-19T03:42:05Z Bike: three, yes.
2015-08-19T03:42:21Z drmeister: Three what?
2015-08-19T03:42:28Z Bike: in (((uintptr_t)vap)-3); i mean.
2015-08-19T03:42:39Z drmeister: Oh, that's just the tag.
2015-08-19T03:42:50Z drmeister: A tag, any old tag in the bottom two bits.
2015-08-19T03:43:22Z drmeister: I need a tag because otherwise I can't distinguish the pointer to the wrapped va_list from a FIXNUM.
2015-08-19T03:43:25Z Bike: shouldn't it be &~3 instead of -3 then?
2015-08-19T03:44:37Z drmeister: Sure, but I've been adding and subtracting because there are X86 instructions to add and subtract offsets from memory accesses.  I suppose I could use &~3 but would it generate an AND or an offset access instruction?  I don't know.
2015-08-19T03:45:15Z drmeister: I'd have to look at the disassembled code to figure it out.  It works for -tag and +tag.
2015-08-19T03:45:22Z Bike: oh, wait, so you know the tag is 11.
2015-08-19T03:45:23Z drmeister: So tagging pointers is free.
2015-08-19T03:45:55Z Zhivago: I suspect 'cheap' rather than 'free'.
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2015-08-19T03:51:07Z drmeister: The tag I'll use is #b101   so +5 and -5
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2015-08-19T03:54:30Z drmeister: This will let me call  C++ and Common lisp functions using the C calling convention, create a va_list that describes where the arguments are on the stack and then pass that va_list down several function calls including Common Lisp functions - specifically (COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS generic-function function-arguments)
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2015-08-19T03:55:10Z drmeister: I can pass the tagged pointer to the wrapped va_list directly as the "function-arguments" argument of C-A-M
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2015-08-19T03:56:08Z drmeister: That means I don't have to convert the arguments on the stack to a list or copy them in any way.
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2015-08-19T03:57:26Z drmeister: I also don't need to copy the arguments for &rest/&key processing like SBCL does.
2015-08-19T03:58:19Z drmeister: Not that anyone who uses &rest or &key arguments should expect speed (that's what compiler macros are for)
2015-08-19T03:59:37Z drmeister: The downside is that the C++ calling convention doesn't support tail call optimization - so I'll have to add support for other calling conventions that do for intra compilation-unit calls.
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2015-08-19T04:00:55Z drmeister: Mainly I want this to speed up generic function calls.  Cleavir uses lots of little generic functions.
2015-08-19T04:02:17Z drmeister: As an added bonus I now get access to function call arguments in SLDB
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2015-08-19T04:39:50Z Lokathor: https://github.com/Lokathor/projecteuler/blob/master/lisp/euler.lisp i want this to return a number much bigger than 0, but instead it returns 0
2015-08-19T04:40:12Z Lokathor: i'm sure i'm making some sort of beginner mistake
2015-08-19T04:41:59Z Bike: ti's a math mistake, (= 0 (/ i 3)) is wrong.
2015-08-19T04:42:05Z Bike: i mean, what's 27/3? not zero.
2015-08-19T04:42:11Z Bike: what you want is (zerop (mod i 3)) etc
2015-08-19T04:42:26Z Lokathor: oh right
2015-08-19T04:42:30Z Lokathor: lisp does ratios
2015-08-19T04:42:37Z Lokathor: i was expecting integer division
2015-08-19T04:43:19Z Bike: 27/3 is not zero even with integer division.
2015-08-19T04:43:48Z Lokathor: oh right
2015-08-19T04:43:54Z Lokathor: mod
2015-08-19T04:43:55Z Lokathor: okay
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2015-08-19T04:44:31Z Bike: you confused C % and /, i guess.
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2015-08-19T04:45:00Z aeth: Because Common Lisp has e.g. zerop or 1+, should these be always used over the alternative forms? e.g. should a hypothetical lisplint mark (= 0 n) as wrong?
2015-08-19T04:45:18Z Bike: i don't think it's a big deal
2015-08-19T04:45:36Z Lokathor: well, confused `div` and `mod`, but yes
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2015-08-19T04:50:06Z Lokathor: now for a while loop
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2015-08-19T04:59:34Z Lokathor: i'm not sure how to arrange this
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2015-08-19T05:08:26Z H4ns: Lokathor: you could have used the SUMMING clause in your loop.  also, IF is an expression, so (+ TOTAL (IF ... I 0)) might look nicer.
2015-08-19T05:09:29Z H4ns: (obviously, (+ TOTAL ...) would not be needed with SUMMING)
2015-08-19T05:09:36Z Lokathor: i saw summing but wasn't sure how to bend it to what i needed
2015-08-19T05:09:53Z Lokathor: i'm doing #2 now, and i'm not sure how to arrange my variables
2015-08-19T05:10:04Z Lokathor: there's quite a bit to this loop stuff
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2015-08-19T05:11:22Z H4ns: Lokathor: no need to bend.  you'd just replace the DO by SUMMING, loose the (+ TOTAL ...) and also remove the FINALLY.
2015-08-19T05:11:58Z Lokathor: wait waht
2015-08-19T05:12:01Z Lokathor: i don't have a "do"
2015-08-19T05:12:34Z H4ns: ah, no, you have AND, sorry.
2015-08-19T05:13:09Z Lokathor: well i want to focus on #2 for a moment
2015-08-19T05:13:16Z Lokathor: what i want to say is:
2015-08-19T05:13:41Z Lokathor: and a = 0 then b, and b = 1 then c, with c = (+ a b)
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2015-08-19T05:14:12Z Lokathor: but it needs to keep looping until c goes above a value
2015-08-19T05:14:19Z Lokathor: so i'm not sure how to connect all that
2015-08-19T05:14:35Z H4ns: use paste.lisp.org to show your code.
2015-08-19T05:14:40Z Lokathor: because i don't have a primary clause to stick the "and" clauses on
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2015-08-19T05:15:40Z lpaste_: Lokathor pasted “No title” at http://lpaste.net/139178
2015-08-19T05:16:25Z Lokathor: whoops, (+ total ) should be (+ total c), but you get the idea
2015-08-19T05:16:32Z Bike: by the way, is it really only one thousand or one million? i thought euler generally demanded larger numbers and thus cleverer solutions
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2015-08-19T05:17:04Z Lokathor: well the very first problem is a thousand
2015-08-19T05:17:14Z Lokathor: later on it gets stupidly large, yes
2015-08-19T05:17:38Z Lokathor: though the solutions don't have to be *too* clever, because they expect you to be able to do them in javascript and python and such
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2015-08-19T05:19:16Z Lokathor: and the target time is <60 seconds, which is actually quite a bit of time
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2015-08-19T05:19:36Z lpaste_: Lokathor revised “No title”: “fixed” at http://lpaste.net/139178
2015-08-19T05:19:44Z Bike: well, i mean, stuff like hwo the sum of the first n fibonacci numbers is just the n+2th minus one. you know. math.
2015-08-19T05:19:44Z Bike: stuff that makes the implementation's speed hopefully irrelevant
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2015-08-19T05:20:03Z Lokathor: i don't know math
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2015-08-19T05:21:21Z Lokathor: anyway there's my paste but i'm still not sure how to make it do the right thing
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2015-08-19T05:23:02Z Bike: loop for a = 0 then b for b = 1 then c for c = (+ a b)
2015-08-19T05:23:02Z Bike: i think.
2015-08-19T05:23:03Z Bike: probably a fencepost error in there somewhere.
2015-08-19T05:23:58Z Lokathor: unknown loop keyword: then
2015-08-19T05:24:07Z Lokathor: i'm baffled
2015-08-19T05:24:40Z Bike: (loop repeat n for a = 0 then b for b = 1 then c for c = (+ a b) finally (return c)) gives the nth fibonacci number here.
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2015-08-19T05:26:46Z Lokathor: undefined variable: N
2015-08-19T05:27:04Z Bike: well, yes, for some n you pick.
2015-08-19T05:27:14Z Lokathor: oh you have to pick the n
2015-08-19T05:27:28Z Lokathor: i thought that was like a "while(true)" sort of thing
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2015-08-19T05:36:08Z Lokathor: i got it! https://github.com/Lokathor/projecteuler/blob/master/lisp/euler.lisp
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2015-08-19T05:37:07Z Bike: you can take out the repeat clause.
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2015-08-19T05:38:05Z Bike: and replace the last two lines with "until (>= c 4000000) summing c"
2015-08-19T05:38:31Z Lokathor: but it's not a strict sum, it's only a sum of evens
2015-08-19T05:38:36Z Lokathor: can the summing bit take an expression?
2015-08-19T05:38:47Z Bike: oh, oops.
2015-08-19T05:38:54Z Bike: yeah, it can. that's what H4ns was suggesting earlier.
2015-08-19T05:38:59Z Lokathor: ohhh
2015-08-19T05:39:50Z Lokathor: okay cool
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2015-08-19T05:41:06Z Bike: you could also do "until (>= c 4000000) when (evenp c) sum c"
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2015-08-19T05:43:38Z Lokathor: cool
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2015-08-19T05:45:19Z Lokathor: the lack of lazy evaluation stings a little less now
2015-08-19T05:45:37Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-19T05:46:25Z Lokathor: hey, daniel is my name too
2015-08-19T05:47:03Z jackdaniel: then we have something in common ;-)
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2015-08-19T06:25:36Z jackdaniel: wish-driven development – I tought how cool would it be to just type "make recheck" instead of removing cache result manually – typed it and… it worked!
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2015-08-19T06:43:43Z lewis1711: I was (re)reading koopman the other day, and there was a note that lisp machines were actually stack/accumulator machine hybrids. This term is a real pain to google for, is there anything out there that describes their instruction sets?
2015-08-19T06:44:17Z lewis1711: that is to say, stack machines with one explicitly addressable register, so some instructions had 1 explicit operand
2015-08-19T06:45:23Z jsnell: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/5718
2015-08-19T06:46:27Z lewis1711: jsnell, legend! thanks
2015-08-19T06:47:25Z jackdaniel waits for lisp processor implemented on top of fpga (;
2015-08-19T06:48:21Z lewis1711: are high level CPUs a good idea though?
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2015-08-19T06:50:24Z ggole: So far they haven't been
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2015-08-19T06:52:33Z ggole: I don't think stack/accumulator machines have any explicitly addressable registers: the point of accumulator machines is that references to the accumlator are implicit
2015-08-19T06:53:14Z Zhivago: It's not as though the architectures were particularly good, so I'm not sure it's worth wondering about.
2015-08-19T06:53:18Z ggole: The goal of adding such a register to a stack machine would presumably be reducing stack traffic rather than eliminating selector bits
2015-08-19T06:53:34Z ggole: Well, it might have bearing on the design of a bytecode interpreter
2015-08-19T06:53:50Z Zhivago: If you were designing for decades obsolete systems to run on, perhaps.
2015-08-19T06:53:59Z lewis1711: ggole, if the accumulator register is not explicitly addressable, then it's not a hybrid machine
2015-08-19T06:54:07Z Zhivago: Otherwise, you might as well use modern techniques.
2015-08-19T06:54:17Z lewis1711: what do you mean by "stack traffic"?
2015-08-19T06:54:19Z ggole: If it has a stack and an accumulator register as well, it is a hybrid.
2015-08-19T06:54:43Z lewis1711: I don't get how it would use the accumulator if it were not addressable.
2015-08-19T06:54:53Z ggole: Zhivago: V8 is adding an interpreter - it's a hybrid register/accumulator machine
2015-08-19T06:55:18Z Zhivago: Sure, and that's probably worth looking at.
2015-08-19T06:56:24Z ggole: lewis1711: you have distinct opcodes for accessing the stack vs the accumulator
2015-08-19T06:56:57Z lewis1711: hm.
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2015-08-19T06:57:22Z lewis1711: so it would have to combine the instructions of an accumulator and a stack machine, and then have something else for them to interact
2015-08-19T06:57:55Z ggole: You wouldn't need every possible combination, really
2015-08-19T06:57:58Z ggole: Only common ones
2015-08-19T06:58:09Z Zhivago: Well, you can consider registers to be a fast cache.
2015-08-19T06:58:28Z lewis1711: but modern stack machines use registers for their evaluation stack
2015-08-19T06:58:44Z lewis1711: (the forth inspired ones I mean, from that era onwards)
2015-08-19T06:58:56Z Zhivago: Sure, and if you think of registers as a fast cache, caching the top of the stack in a stack machine might be a good idea.
2015-08-19T07:00:28Z lewis1711: it's a very archaic design to only cache one register. that's what the burroughs did wasn't it?
2015-08-19T07:00:58Z lewis1711: and if you can't directly address the register, like if that's not exposed in the instruction set, then it's not a hybrid machine.
2015-08-19T07:01:29Z ggole: The whole point of an accumulator design is that the register reference is implicit.
2015-08-19T07:02:18Z ggole: You have compact instructions that look like add x, with one explicit arguments and two implicit references to the accumulator.
2015-08-19T07:03:55Z lewis1711: so x is the accumulator register?
2015-08-19T07:04:06Z ggole: No, it's the second argument to the add
2015-08-19T07:04:12Z ggole: accum = accum + x
2015-08-19T07:04:25Z lewis1711: right
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2015-08-19T07:04:42Z lewis1711: I've never heard of a design like that
2015-08-19T07:04:56Z lewis1711: you'd have a stack_add and an accum_add then
2015-08-19T07:04:58Z lewis1711: or some such
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2015-08-19T07:06:28Z ggole: Either that, or you would need additional load/store-from-accumulator instructions for some add instructions
2015-08-19T07:06:58Z ggole: (But stack machines sometimes need move-to-top-of-stack too.)
2015-08-19T07:07:00Z lewis1711: ggole, http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/sec2_1.html#213
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2015-08-19T07:08:30Z ggole: Hmm, top of stack as accumulator. That could work.
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2015-08-19T07:09:06Z lewis1711: this is the only book that goes into detail about this stuff that I am aware of
2015-08-19T07:09:46Z lewis1711: and no, it's "top of stack as the implicit second operand"
2015-08-19T07:10:01Z lewis1711: so "add x" adds x to the tos
2015-08-19T07:10:09Z lewis1711: where x is the accumulator register
2015-08-19T07:10:28Z lewis1711: anyway, he later puts lisp machines in that category
2015-08-19T07:10:39Z lewis1711: I'll read the manual and see if I learn anything
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2015-08-19T07:36:38Z p_l: lewis1711: not sure how well high-level CPUs would deal with things like superscalar operation...
2015-08-19T07:36:46Z p_l: OTOH, x86 has XML instructions...
2015-08-19T07:43:03Z p_l: (SSE4.2, for interested - single-instruction CRC32 and bunch of instructions designed for speeding up XML by using vector registers for string operations...)
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2015-08-19T08:14:00Z White_Flame: one of the biggest issues with stack machines as they apply to modern architectures, is that they're inherently serial.
2015-08-19T08:14:33Z White_Flame: the big speed boost we've been seeing have been usually from increases in instructions per clock cycle
2015-08-19T08:14:52Z jackdaniel: my books like on the table in parallel stacks – they would fall apart otherwise ;-)
2015-08-19T08:15:04Z jackdaniel: s/like/lie/
2015-08-19T08:15:19Z White_Flame: now, while things like the JVM perform stack -> register recompilation, I don't see the point of doing that in hardware
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2015-08-19T08:24:42Z lewis1711: there have been multicore stack machines
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2015-08-19T08:26:42Z lewis1711: also its not a fair comparison, a micro-coded CISC register machine has to do far more
2015-08-19T08:27:05Z ggole: Multicore has nothing do with with ILP
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2015-08-19T10:08:20Z jackdaniel: psetf is a tricky beast, esp when place is something of symbol-macrolet (aref a (incf i))
2015-08-19T10:08:47Z jackdaniel: s/of/like/
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2015-08-19T10:22:22Z jackdaniel: but it's craked \o/ tests will show, that I broke 8 things around, but let's celebrate (:
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2015-08-19T10:23:49Z Firedancer: \o/
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2015-08-19T10:37:36Z ZilogBG: Hello all :)
2015-08-19T10:37:41Z jackdaniel: hi o/
2015-08-19T10:39:39Z papachan: hi
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2015-08-19T11:07:03Z rm-r: what dialect of lisp are object oriented ? only common ?
2015-08-19T11:09:48Z Guthur: rm-r: CL is multi paradigm
2015-08-19T11:09:55Z rm-r: CL
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2015-08-19T11:09:56Z rm-r: hmm
2015-08-19T11:09:58Z rm-r: clojure yes ?
2015-08-19T11:10:06Z Guthur: I think there is an object system for Scheme
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2015-08-19T11:10:25Z jackdaniel: Guthur: it's the same silly troll as ever, don't waste your time
2015-08-19T11:10:37Z Guthur: ah, ok
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2015-08-19T11:13:12Z rm-r: Becouse i wanna learn scheme
2015-08-19T11:13:23Z rm-r: but i wanna learn now object language
2015-08-19T11:13:26Z rm-r: cuz i dont know any
2015-08-19T11:14:37Z ZilogBG: Scheme is not object-oriented. Actually most languages are not, they just have object-oriented capabilities.
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2015-08-19T11:14:47Z rm-r: i see
2015-08-19T11:14:54Z ZilogBG: Why do you need OO anyway?
2015-08-19T11:14:55Z rm-r: so what dialect of lisp are most object
2015-08-19T11:15:00Z rm-r: i dont know xD
2015-08-19T11:15:04Z rm-r: its just that, for case
2015-08-19T11:15:41Z ZilogBG: I can`t help you. I have never written a single line of OO code. And I am still alive.
2015-08-19T11:16:31Z rm-r: wow ^^
2015-08-19T11:16:37Z rm-r: in true im only writing procedural
2015-08-19T11:16:45Z rm-r: for now
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2015-08-19T11:21:21Z ZilogBG: Can someone, please, give me on example of a self-modifying code/algorithm done in Common Lisp or Scheme?
2015-08-19T11:22:09Z rm-r: cuz you know
2015-08-19T11:22:40Z rm-r: when you downloading sources from github its written you downloading "object", music, graphics etc are "objects" so when you write "objects" you can thing u making something bigger
2015-08-19T11:22:55Z rm-r: :D
2015-08-19T11:23:00Z rm-r: something more "material"
2015-08-19T11:23:06Z jackdaniel: ZilogBG: (defun b () (defun c () 5))
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2015-08-19T11:24:30Z jackdaniel: or even (defun b (x) (if x (defun c () :foo) (defun c () :bar)))
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2015-08-19T11:26:10Z flip214: ISTR some blog post or book content, that talked about fetching the Nth element of a sort result via some sort network, being optimized by removing comparisions not needed for the endresult.
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2015-08-19T11:26:22Z flip214: similar to http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2012/08/27/tabasco-sort-super-optimal-merge-sort/ in a bit
2015-08-19T11:26:32Z flip214: does somebody remember where that was?
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2015-08-19T11:27:03Z ZilogBG: jackdaniel: Thanks.
2015-08-19T11:27:17Z jackdaniel: flip214: o, thanks – this link seems nice
2015-08-19T11:27:19Z flip214: ie. input is a list (or array) and a number, result is the Nth value after sorting. got inlined via a macro if the number was constant and the list of known length, IIRC.
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2015-08-19T11:28:47Z dim: is there a prog1 equivalent with support for multiple-values?
2015-08-19T11:29:02Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-prog1
2015-08-19T11:29:10Z dim: multiple-value-prog1
2015-08-19T11:29:12Z dim: yeah thanks
2015-08-19T11:29:15Z dim: sorry
2015-08-19T11:29:24Z jackdaniel: np, enjoy :)
2015-08-19T11:30:24Z ZilogBG: None of my colleagues and professors are interested in LISP :( Happy to find the channel.
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2015-08-19T11:57:06Z pjb: Xach: you should definitely read my code before using it.
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2015-08-19T11:59:23Z Xach: I can save time and not read your code before not using it
2015-08-19T11:59:57Z dim: aggressive optimisation: you can read the license and stop here
2015-08-19T12:00:19Z dim: unfortunately it only optimise reads
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2015-08-19T12:20:14Z pjb: rm-r: there are basically two OO languages: Smalltalk and Common Lisp (CLOS).
2015-08-19T12:21:18Z rm-r: okay thanks
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2015-08-19T13:27:43Z dlowe: I think Dylan qualifies
2015-08-19T13:28:07Z Zhivago: pjb: For what definition of OO?
2015-08-19T13:29:07Z Zhivago: Personally I think there are many OO languages, and OO boils down to procedural abstraction with a partition between accidental and fundamental interfaces.
2015-08-19T13:29:24Z dlowe: well, if you want full-on OO, where every operation is a message passed to an object, I think Smalltalk is one of few.
2015-08-19T13:29:42Z Zhivago: That sounds like actors rather.
2015-08-19T13:29:52Z Zhivago: In which case CLOS wouldn't qualify.
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2015-08-19T13:33:00Z djh: IIRC, the inventor of OO said message passing was the fundamental aspect
2015-08-19T13:33:03Z dlowe: OO describes a pretty fuzzy concept. I'm unconvinced that it's a worthwhile label
2015-08-19T13:33:15Z Cymew: It's a useless question, for most cases.
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2015-08-19T13:33:46Z djh: I tend to think of OO as "data you can attach logic to"
2015-08-19T13:34:22Z djh: while FP I think of as "logic you can embed data in" :)
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2015-08-19T13:35:43Z Cymew: If you choose a language becuase it's a "OOP" language, you are not considering the important questions.
2015-08-19T13:36:04Z pjb: Zhivago: indeed, actos are closer to what Alan Kay had in mind when he invented OO.
2015-08-19T13:36:17Z pjb: asynchronous messages.
2015-08-19T13:36:21Z Zhivago: What Alan Kay had in mind is pretty well irrelevant.
2015-08-19T13:36:44Z Zhivago: OO has settled and shifted and worn its own groove.
2015-08-19T13:36:48Z pjb: If you removed return values from methods, then if you wanted a result, you'd have to pass an object to take it (like a continuation).  With TCO this would work.
2015-08-19T13:37:14Z pjb: Zhivago: to the point of not meaning anything. I mean, your definition is so vast…
2015-08-19T13:37:26Z Zhivago: Hmm. My definition is pretty specific.
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2015-08-19T13:37:47Z Zhivago: Take procedural abstraction and partition it into accidental and fundamental interfaces.
2015-08-19T13:38:04Z pjb: You can find procedural abstraction with a partition between accidental and fundamental interfaces in every system!
2015-08-19T13:38:26Z Zhivago: Actually, you don't have partitions in many cases -- take C, for example.
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2015-08-19T13:38:36Z dlowe: In C the partition is the file
2015-08-19T13:38:45Z pjb: compilation unit.
2015-08-19T13:38:46Z dlowe: a lot of people don't notice that
2015-08-19T13:38:54Z dlowe: whatever :p
2015-08-19T13:38:57Z pjb: translation_unit they say in C.
2015-08-19T13:39:21Z dlowe: You can make quite nice external/internal interfaces with liberal use of the static keyword
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2015-08-19T13:39:50Z Zhivago: You can control linkage, certainly.
2015-08-19T13:42:41Z Zhivago: But there's nothing that allows you to express which is which, in the language.
2015-08-19T13:42:55Z Zhivago: So you can build an OO system on top of C, but it isn't part of C itself.
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2015-08-19T14:10:53Z flip214: jackdaniel: are ECL bugs being moved from SF as well?
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2015-08-19T14:11:50Z flip214: http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/support-requests/13/ (from http://sourceforge.net/projects/ecls/?source=directory) gives me "404 We're sorry but we weren't able to process this request."
2015-08-19T14:12:02Z jackdaniel: flip214: yes, all has been moved to gitlab
2015-08-19T14:12:14Z jackdaniel: gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues
2015-08-19T14:12:30Z flip214: ack, thanks.
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2015-08-19T14:13:26Z flip214: so, if I did find some time (sadly unlikely), I'd need to ask you for access rights there, right?
2015-08-19T14:13:50Z jackdaniel: issues are open, but you have to have account on giitlab
2015-08-19T14:13:58Z jackdaniel: (which is free)
2015-08-19T14:14:11Z jackdaniel: similar to github
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2015-08-19T14:19:46Z flip214: jackdaniel: "https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl" shows some text (which I recognize as being from me ;) but which shouldn't belong on the first page...
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2015-08-19T14:20:09Z flip214: but they're moving right now, so you can't even look
2015-08-19T14:20:20Z jackdaniel: ugh :)
2015-08-19T14:20:53Z jackdaniel: flip214: are you Philipp Marek?
2015-08-19T14:20:59Z flip214: yeah
2015-08-19T14:21:09Z flip214: why?
2015-08-19T14:21:16Z jackdaniel just realized that
2015-08-19T14:21:22Z flip214 ponders whether to hide somewheree
2015-08-19T14:21:27Z jackdaniel: saw your commits and read your posts on mailing list
2015-08-19T14:21:30Z flip214: s/e$//
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2015-08-19T14:21:44Z flip214: oh, right.
2015-08-19T14:21:55Z flip214: I'm so sorry - I was young and needed the money!!             ;P
2015-08-19T14:22:03Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-19T14:25:41Z jackdaniel: ecl.h file https://gist.github.com/aras-p/6224951 ;-)
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2015-08-19T15:01:33Z flip214: jackdaniel: gitlab is up again, in case you want to look at the front page.
2015-08-19T15:01:37Z jackdaniel: flip214: btw, there is #ecl channel (however nobody has op there yet)
2015-08-19T15:02:02Z jackdaniel: it doesn't work here yet
2015-08-19T15:02:07Z jackdaniel: I'll be back in 20 minutes or so
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2015-08-19T15:37:45Z jackdaniel: shiftf returns one value, or all values from leftmost place?
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2015-08-19T15:42:37Z reb`: jackdaniel: Consult the standard ... one value.
2015-08-19T15:43:39Z reb`:  http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/ansicl/ansicl.htm
2015-08-19T15:43:41Z jackdaniel: reb`: thanks – wasn't sure. I often misread spec and make stupid mistakes
2015-08-19T15:43:57Z jackdaniel: so if in doubt I consult here
2015-08-19T15:44:07Z jackdaniel: I checked here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm btw
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2015-08-19T15:54:55Z reb`: jackdaniel: I prefer the Franz version because the typography is nicer.
2015-08-19T15:55:47Z jackdaniel: yeah, it looks better
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2015-08-19T16:16:46Z knobo_: cxml's dom parser creates a text element for the spaces between a tag opening sub-elements. Is there an easy way to ignore/remove these text elements?
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2015-08-19T16:29:18Z pjb: IIRC, there's an option for that.
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2015-08-19T16:30:27Z akkad: anyone going to the emacsconf in SF this weekend?
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2015-08-19T16:36:09Z pjb: knobo_: good question.  I head that actually the XML DTD didn't allow for those spaces and newlines between tags, so cxml should actually signal an error. Perhaps you could do something with the handler chain, like cxml:make-whitespace-normalizer but for thost inter-tag spaces?
2015-08-19T16:36:16Z pjb: s/thost/those/
2015-08-19T16:37:12Z pjb: knobo_: In the other hand, if you use the CXML-XMLS:MAKE-XMLS-BUILDER, then xmls has such an option, that doesn't seem to be present in CXML-XMLS:MAKE-XMLS-BUILDER .
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2015-08-19T16:42:15Z knobo: pjb: thank you. I'll check it out.
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2015-08-19T17:35:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ooh, the nignle page [http://8arrow.org/ningle/] got updated.
2015-08-19T17:37:12Z eudoxia: nice
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2015-08-19T17:42:03Z jasom: I should pull my routing code out into a library to share with the world.
2015-08-19T17:42:16Z Xach: too much routing!
2015-08-19T17:42:29Z Xach wants a sabrasurvey of routing tools
2015-08-19T17:42:36Z jasom: sabrasurvey?
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2015-08-19T17:43:09Z Xach: like https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries
2015-08-19T17:43:24Z Xach: or https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/lisp-project-framework-generators
2015-08-19T17:44:07Z jasom: Xach: whow, I've never seen that before
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2015-08-19T17:45:49Z Petit_Dejeuner can't figure out how to stop his ningle server. http://paste.lisp.org/display/153934
2015-08-19T17:46:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Seems like there's a special function for stopping ningle apps.
2015-08-19T17:46:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: ..but I use clack:clackup to start them
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2015-08-19T18:12:32Z francogrex: has anyone used object database like this for example? https://github.com/gonzojive/elephant
2015-08-19T18:13:06Z reb`: francogrex: I have not used that one, but have used other similar ones.
2015-08-19T18:14:31Z francogrex: reb`: yes, like what? I am wondering how they work, do they necessarily need a relational dbms as backend or can one construct db only in lisp objects, query etc...
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2015-08-19T18:15:21Z Xach: I have a nice book (from ACM?) with a chapter on Statice, the Symbolics object database. By Dan Weinreb et al.
2015-08-19T18:15:23Z francogrex: elephant at least in appearance, seems to be able to do both one can choose... it interests me
2015-08-19T18:15:53Z Xach: joe marshall's blog series on the topic is also great. i want to consolidate it and put it somewhere.
2015-08-19T18:16:22Z p_l: francogrex: there's at least one pure-lisp object store, rucksack iirc
2015-08-19T18:16:37Z francogrex: Xach: it would be good. elephant has not been updated for some time already
2015-08-19T18:16:51Z Xach: well, you can't run prose.
2015-08-19T18:16:55Z Xach: but it *is* interesting
2015-08-19T18:17:23Z p_l: francogrex: also, consider that there's a lot more database systems than people think, all around us
2015-08-19T18:17:33Z francogrex: one can learn at least the principles, the "math" behind it if there is any
2015-08-19T18:17:35Z p_l runs his filesystem out of object store, for example
2015-08-19T18:18:32Z Xach: francogrex: joe marshall's posts are good. there are also a lot of books and papers on the subject. so many.
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2015-08-19T18:19:05Z francogrex: p_l: I know that. relational is attractive but I want to have another experience to try see the differece in usage and performance, especially querying wise
2015-08-19T18:19:46Z p_l: francogrex: relational is just what people think of when they hear "database" these day. Though relational got where it got by being a good fit for *many* areas
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2015-08-19T18:24:37Z dlowe: rucksack could really use some TLC
2015-08-19T18:24:38Z francogrex: p_l: "When someone says "database," most people think of SQL Relational Data..." from https://github.com/gonzojive/elephant/blob/master/doc/tutorial.texinfo. heck I'll try it.
2015-08-19T18:25:21Z p_l: dlowe: yeah
2015-08-19T18:25:39Z p_l: francogrex: some of us meanwhile are pedantic and recall that filesystems are also databases :P
2015-08-19T18:26:11Z rme: Probably elephant, too.  It's been a while since I messed with it, though.
2015-08-19T18:26:46Z francogrex: (ql:quickload "elephant") ...
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2015-08-19T18:42:31Z reb`: francogrex: Some commercial OO DBs and proprietary ones ... none Lisp specific.
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2015-08-19T18:46:58Z reb`: francogrex: Take a look at http://www.cliki.net/CommonLispPrevalence
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2015-08-19T18:56:06Z francogrex: I got disconnected
2015-08-19T18:57:14Z Xach: http://franz.com/products/database_tools/
2015-08-19T18:57:37Z jfe: (progn (setf x '(3 2 1)) (sort x #'<) x) ; yields (3) instead of (1 2 3). why??
2015-08-19T18:58:58Z Xach: jfe: there are a couple problems. one is working on quoted data. that is a minor issue. the real issue is that sort's return value, not its side effect, is the thing that produces a meaningful result.
2015-08-19T19:00:36Z jfe: ah, gotcha. what problem arises from working on quoted data? isn't that sort of a leaky abstraction?
2015-08-19T19:01:01Z Xach: jfe: the problem is that the system is allowed to treat it as constant.
2015-08-19T19:01:09Z jackdaniel: jfe: try (setf x (sort (list 1 2 3) #'<)))
2015-08-19T19:01:13Z Xach: jfe: that is how it is specified.
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2015-08-19T19:07:17Z rme: jfe: To be more precise, destructively modifying literal objects, including quoted objects, is undefined.
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2015-08-19T19:22:16Z jfe: Xach, rme: thanks for the clarification. i really should pick up a copy of the spec once i'm done reading paul graham's book.
2015-08-19T19:22:55Z Xach: there isn't a good hardcopy of the spec
2015-08-19T19:23:03Z Xach: the hyperspec is how many many people read it
2015-08-19T19:24:27Z jfe: wow, that's a shame.
2015-08-19T19:26:58Z pjb: jfe: that's the problem with copyrighted manuals: the copyright owner gets to decide how copies are made…
2015-08-19T19:27:22Z pjb: And in particular, the ANSI decided that copies of the CL specifications shall be made badly.
2015-08-19T19:28:17Z jfe: when you say badly, do you mean poor print quality? there's no ebook/pdf/latex or something?
2015-08-19T19:28:44Z jfe: would it be illegal to just transcribe a bad copy into latex?
2015-08-19T19:32:16Z Xach: there are tex sources that multiple people are, as we speak, trying to beat into some usable form.
2015-08-19T19:32:35Z francogrex: ocr maybe... but why bother they are in html already
2015-08-19T19:32:39Z Xach: those sources are 20 years old and nobody has done it yet (aside from franz and harlequin), but maybe we are in a magic time
2015-08-19T19:32:50Z Xach: the html is not something you could take and use
2015-08-19T19:34:08Z jfe: Xach, any idea if the sources are in a public repository? it might be something i'd like to get involved in.
2015-08-19T19:34:30Z Xach: jfe: yes, they are. it's often called "dpans3"
2015-08-19T19:34:55Z Xach: hmm, I don't have a link handy, but they are not hard to find
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2015-08-19T19:35:19Z Xach: jfe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/36kkdc/copyright_on_hyperspec/ has some recent discussion on the topic
2015-08-19T19:36:14Z rme: http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3/
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2015-08-19T19:37:44Z edgar-rft: The "book.pdf" is a PDF version of dpANS3: <http://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/misc/symbolic/lisp/dpANS3/>
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2015-08-19T19:41:00Z francogrex: the pdf is not bad as it looks now, what's missing?
2015-08-19T19:41:18Z Xach: edgar-rft: interesting. i don't think i saw that before.
2015-08-19T19:41:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is anyone still using CLOCC?
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2015-08-19T19:42:57Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: I haven't heard of anyone doing that
2015-08-19T19:43:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: I ask because I'm trying to go through the commonlisp cookbook and it mentions port. http://clocc.sourceforge.net/dist/port.html
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2015-08-19T19:44:25Z Xach: the common lisp cookbook is over 10 years old and predates many useful things that people use now instead of clocc
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2015-08-19T19:45:17Z francogrex: but i still prefer the html hyperspecs.. i think someone compiled a chm version once of the specs
2015-08-19T19:46:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. I thought it would still be worth a read since the standard hasn't changed, but it looks like I'll have to avoid the library specific parts.
2015-08-19T19:46:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: @ Xach
2015-08-19T19:46:51Z edgar-rft: Xach: I got that PDF link from someone in the Lisp Forum last year, stupidly I can't remember in what context...
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2015-08-19T19:51:24Z francogrex: i recalling having seen that draft pdf copy before
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2015-08-19T19:54:20Z phf: isn't that book what feeding dpans3 into latex produces?
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2015-08-19T19:55:37Z edgar-rft: I think the PDF was made from the sources in <http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3/>
2015-08-19T19:56:23Z dlowe: it's pretty trivial to make a pdf
2015-08-19T19:56:51Z phf: edgar-rft: actually under src on your original link there's an archive with their sources, and it looks like they did a bunch of modifications to dpans3 to produce that pdf
2015-08-19T19:57:47Z francogrex: why is it called "draft" though?
2015-08-19T19:59:52Z edgar-rft: Because it's not the "official" standard, but a working copy of the last version before the official print version. According to Kent Pitman dpANS3 differs only in a few spelling corrections from the official ANSI standard.
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2015-08-19T20:00:35Z edgar-rft: phf: compare it page-by-page with the Hyperspec and tell us the difference :-)
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2015-08-19T20:01:20Z phf: edgar-rft: they helpfully provide diffs
2015-08-19T20:01:44Z francogrex: hmm elephant must have a rdbms backend, so it's more of an ORM than a pure lisp object database...
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2015-08-19T20:05:16Z edgar-rft: phf: I have looked at approx. 20 of the diffs from the tar.bz2 and only found visual layout changes so far. I don't think anybody with a sane brian will modify the text, or at least I hope so.
2015-08-19T20:06:47Z edgar-rft: sane brian? (reminds me on monthy python's "life of brian"), what I meant was "sane brain" of course
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2015-08-19T20:08:31Z phf: edgar-rft: right, i didn't mean to imply they changed content, only that they had to change ~something~ in order to produce a pdf out of dpans3 source
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2015-08-19T20:11:05Z edgar-rft: The main difference between dpANS3 and the Hyperspec is that the Hyperspec contains a lot of code examples, which are not contained in the ANSI print version, plus links to all proposals and discussions that were left unresresolved and therefore are also not contained in the ANSI standard.
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2015-08-19T20:27:58Z pjb: It is trivial to make the pdf, but you cannot distribute it (make copies) without the authorisation of the ANSI.
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2015-08-19T20:28:49Z Xach: That is not a universally-held view
2015-08-19T20:29:02Z Xach: Kent Pitman holds the contrary view, for example.
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2015-08-19T20:29:28Z pjb: Correcting tipoes and adding examples clearly makes it a derived work re copyright law.
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2015-08-19T20:33:41Z Xach: pjb: Perhaps I don't know what you mean by "make the pdf". Do you mean going from the dpans3 sources to a PDF? Or some other sources to a PDF?
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2015-08-19T20:43:51Z emaczen: I have a macro: (-> obj (:msg1 args1 ...) (:msg2 args2 ...) ...) that transforms to (send (send obj :msg1 args1 ...) :msg2 args2 ...) -- well it just returns this as a list.
2015-08-19T20:44:36Z emaczen: I was under the impression that at compile time, it would replace the (-> ...) with this nested list of (send ...) forms and then evaluate the send forms, but it never seems to evaluate them.
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2015-08-19T20:47:47Z Xach: emaczen: if you type (-> ...) at the repl, you get a list back, rather than the result of evaluating that list?
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2015-08-19T20:49:43Z edgar-rft: I can't tell it for sure without seeing the original code, but probably at compile-time the macro is expanded and the code is replaced, but not evaluated. Or at least this would be the expected behaviour od a macro expansion. If you want something to be evaluated at compile-time use #. (sharp-sign dot) or EVAL-WHEN.
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2015-08-19T20:50:05Z emaczen: Xach: Yes, the macro just expands to a (let ((chain)) (loop ...) chain) form
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2015-08-19T20:50:28Z Xach: emaczen: so when you type (-> ...) you get back a list that looks like (LET ...)?
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2015-08-19T20:51:35Z emaczen: Xach: If I type (-> ...) into the REPL I get the (send (send ...)) forms back as a list. If I use C-c C-m (macroexpand-1 ...) all my macro does is expand into a (let ((...)) (loop ...)) form that constructs the nested (send ...) list
2015-08-19T20:52:58Z Xach: emaczen: but you expect to see the result of evaluating the (send ...) form?
2015-08-19T20:53:36Z Xach: emaczen: it sounds possible that you have an extra layer of quoting that needs to be stripped away. hard to say without seeing the macro definition.
2015-08-19T20:54:30Z emaczen: I'll make a paste
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2015-08-19T20:56:12Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+3AS1.
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2015-08-19T21:05:59Z pinterface1: Definitely too much backquoted.  see annotation 1.
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2015-08-19T21:06:15Z ehu: pinterface: that doesn't seem quite right.
2015-08-19T21:06:31Z emaczen: what is annotation 1?
2015-08-19T21:06:45Z ehu: emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153937#1
2015-08-19T21:06:55Z ehu: pinterface: ok. sorry, it does look right.
2015-08-19T21:08:38Z emaczen: pinterface: Thanks, it definitely works as I expect now in the lisp REPL
2015-08-19T21:08:43Z ehu: but there must be someting wrong, because the second, third, ... message arguments are not used.
2015-08-19T21:09:18Z emaczen: I might have to retest actually...
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2015-08-19T21:09:33Z emaczen: My closure could have had the previous definition of -> bound to it
2015-08-19T21:10:14Z ehu: emaczen: the output of that macro isn't  (send (send obj :msg1 arg1) :msg2 arg2)
2015-08-19T21:10:18Z rme: emaczen: Just do (unintern '->)
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2015-08-19T21:10:40Z ehu: because the (list 'send call-chain) and msg
2015-08-19T21:10:50Z ehu: are both arguments to the append.
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2015-08-19T21:11:41Z ehu: you probably want (setf call-chain (list 'send call-chain msg))
2015-08-19T21:11:55Z ehu: but that misses the ":msg2" keyword.
2015-08-19T21:12:25Z ehu needs to go to bed.
2015-08-19T21:12:36Z ehu: I'm providing incorrect reading all the time.
2015-08-19T21:12:47Z ehu: sorry guys, ignore me for today.
2015-08-19T21:12:53Z pinterface: ehu: Happens to everybody.
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2015-08-19T21:13:32Z pinterface: Personally, I think annotation #2 makes what's going on a little more obvious, but ymmv.
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2015-08-19T21:13:56Z emaczen: It seems to work in parenscript just how I wanted :)
2015-08-19T21:14:35Z ehu: pinterface: much better.
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2015-08-19T21:16:00Z emaczen: It does work fine in the lisp repl too? What are you guys debating?
2015-08-19T21:16:11Z emaczen: I mean, it works fine in the lisp repl too.
2015-08-19T21:17:10Z pinterface: emaczen: ehu's tired and was reading it wrong, that's all.
2015-08-19T21:17:42Z emaczen: hah ok, thanks again.
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2015-08-19T23:36:59Z White_Flame: Are there any Lisp-to-JavaScript compilers that run in the browser itself?
2015-08-19T23:37:18Z White_Flame: I see a lot that do ahead of time compilation outside of the browser environment
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2015-08-19T23:45:15Z Xach: White_Flame: cljs, sort of
2015-08-19T23:50:01Z White_Flame: Xach: I looked at it briefly, what's the "sort of" ceaveat?  (other than it's Clojure?)
2015-08-19T23:50:42Z Xach: Oops, I made a mistake. I meant jscl.
2015-08-19T23:51:02Z Xach: It's more like a CL-like system written in javascript.
2015-08-19T23:51:32Z Xach: I guess the description says "a lisp-to-javascript compiler"
2015-08-19T23:51:56Z White_Flame: yeah, that seems fine
2015-08-19T23:52:09Z White_Flame: I don't need 100% CL compatibility, as it's new code & codegen that's going in there
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2015-08-20T00:37:34Z pjb: White_Flame: there are scheme thingies.
2015-08-20T00:39:11Z White_Flame: pjb: the scheme thingies I've seen have been interpreters instead of compilers.  But jscl seems to be reasonable enough for now
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2015-08-20T02:18:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-20T02:20:53Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
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2015-08-20T02:42:58Z loke: Hello White_Flame
2015-08-20T02:42:59Z loke: http://img11.deviantart.net/3330/i/2007/251/3/e/black_and_white_flames_by_akacorn.jpg
2015-08-20T02:43:18Z White_Flame: \:D/
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2015-08-20T03:22:31Z drmeister: Hi beach - do you have some time for some questions?
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2015-08-20T03:23:38Z drmeister: I've rearranged the cleavir code so that functions return values rather than writing to a struct passed into the function as the first argument.
2015-08-20T03:23:51Z drmeister: The cclasp code rather.  Not Cleavir.
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2015-08-20T03:27:48Z drmeister: I need to allocate a slot in the stack frame for the return value and then access it throughout the function and finally by the return-instruction to return the value.
2015-08-20T03:28:32Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out where to store it.  I'm guessing I should create a slot in a subclass of the enter-instruction and store it there.
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2015-08-20T03:29:23Z tjmaynes: Hey I have a question, is #lisp a pretty active channel?
2015-08-20T03:30:19Z drmeister: tjmaynes: Pretty active - yeah.
2015-08-20T03:30:27Z drmeister: Lisp is timeless.
2015-08-20T03:30:53Z tjmaynes: Thanks! I'm really interested in spending my freetime learning lisp
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2015-08-20T03:31:26Z drmeister: Then you've come to the right place - if by lisp you mean Common Lisp - that's the focus of this channel.
2015-08-20T03:32:16Z tjmaynes: Yes. That's what I meant.
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2015-08-20T03:38:06Z beach: drmeister: Sure.
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2015-08-20T03:38:27Z beach: [I have time]
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2015-08-20T03:39:21Z beach: drmeister: I am reading what you wrote.  Give me a second...
2015-08-20T03:39:45Z drmeister: I've only been able to work on Cleavir in fits and spurts.  I figure out how to do things and then forget again. Argh.
2015-08-20T03:40:20Z drmeister: I need to write a primer for myself this time around.
2015-08-20T03:41:21Z beach: drmeister: I don't know what you mean by "I need to allocate a slot in the stack frame for the return value and then access it throughout the function and finally by the return-instruction to return the value".
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2015-08-20T03:42:30Z drmeister: Ugh, how to explain this...
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2015-08-20T03:44:48Z drmeister: Previously I declared functions like this: foo(ret-struct* retP) { bar(retP); }   The return value was handled by passing a pointer to the return-value structure as the first argument to each function.
2015-08-20T03:45:15Z drmeister: Now I want to declare functions like this:    ret-struct foo() { return bar(); }
2015-08-20T03:45:57Z drmeister: Actually what I need is:   ret-struct foo() {ret-struct ret;  ret = bar(); return ret; };
2015-08-20T03:46:57Z drmeister: I need to declare a ret-struct variable within the function and write to it within the body of the function.
2015-08-20T03:47:04Z drmeister: Ugh, this isn't making sense.
2015-08-20T03:48:42Z beach: Despite the strange notation (that you often use) I think I know what you mean.
2015-08-20T03:49:14Z drmeister: Each function described in HIR is defined by an enter-instruction followed by a tree of successors.   I need to declare a variable in the enter-instruction and then get access to it from the successors and the final return-instructions.
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2015-08-20T03:49:57Z beach: Why is that?
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2015-08-20T03:52:29Z drmeister: For instance, the HIR return-instruction will be translated into an LLVM create-ret instruction and it takes an llvm::Value as its argument.
2015-08-20T03:53:03Z drmeister: That llvm::Value is what I need to allocate in the enter-instruction
2015-08-20T03:53:42Z beach: I think we should be more careful about what you represent in the HIR program itself to avoid future problems.
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2015-08-20T03:53:53Z beach: It is always possible to keep information like this on the side.
2015-08-20T03:53:59Z drmeister: Sorry, I'm not making much sense.  I'm confused again.
2015-08-20T03:54:06Z drmeister: I agree.
2015-08-20T03:54:14Z drmeister: Where would I keep information like this?
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2015-08-20T03:55:18Z beach: Presumably, when you generate code from HIR or MIR, you do that by calling a function.  In that function, you can keep whatever information you like in arbitrary data structures in local variables.
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2015-08-20T03:55:52Z drmeister: As I generate an LLVM function, I need to declare and access a collection of values.  Currently I set up a landing-pad so I declared a landing-pad-named-enter-instruction that inherits from Cleavir's enter-instruction and I put the landing-pad info in one of its slots.
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2015-08-20T03:57:52Z beach: I am saying, there is nothing that prevents you from keeping this information in a dictionary inside your code generator.
2015-08-20T03:58:26Z drmeister: I see, maybe I can use a dynamic variable that I bind in LAYOUT-PROCEDURE - it will maintain its value as long as I'm working with the function that LAYOUT-PROCEDURE is laying out.
2015-08-20T03:59:24Z beach: Sure, if you need access to this information from several functions, it may be more practical to use a special variable than to pass it as an argument everywhere.
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2015-08-20T03:59:47Z beach: But those are basically the two alternatives.  In addition to storing the information in the HIR/MIR itself, that is.
2015-08-20T04:00:37Z drmeister: I'm referring to the LAYOUT-PROCEDURE function that you defined in:  sicl/Code/Cleavir/Backends/HIR-interpreter/translate.lisp
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2015-08-20T04:01:00Z beach: I see.
2015-08-20T04:01:02Z drmeister: I copied that file and used it as the basis of my MIR->LLVM-IR translator.
2015-08-20T04:01:15Z beach: I am not using that code myself.
2015-08-20T04:01:19Z drmeister: It's coming back to me now.
2015-08-20T04:02:13Z drmeister: LAYOUT-PROCEDURE sets up everything necessary to create single function in the backend language.
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2015-08-20T04:02:40Z beach: Sure.
2015-08-20T04:03:10Z drmeister: So if there is a return-value variable that I need throughout the function in the backend language (LLVM-IR) I should bind that variable to a dynamic variable in LAYOUT-PROCEDURE.
2015-08-20T04:03:43Z drmeister: Anytime a new function is created that dynamic variable will be bound to another return value variable.
2015-08-20T04:03:55Z drmeister: Ok, I got it now - sorry for the confusing questions.
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2015-08-20T04:04:19Z beach: No, it's fine.
2015-08-20T04:04:43Z beach: I know it helps to expose one's thoughts.
2015-08-20T04:07:04Z beach: I forget.  Do you have a HIR->MIR phase?
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2015-08-20T04:08:29Z drmeister: Yes
2015-08-20T04:08:47Z beach: Then an alternative would be to introduce that stuff there.
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2015-08-20T04:10:05Z drmeister: I use the memref2-instruction
2015-08-20T04:10:12Z drmeister: How would I introduce it there?
2015-08-20T04:10:37Z beach: Adding new instructions and/or data classes.
2015-08-20T04:10:44Z drmeister: As an output of a mir-enter-instruction?
2015-08-20T04:11:11Z beach: I don't know.
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2015-08-20T04:12:53Z beach: I am just saying in general how to associate new information with a program.
2015-08-20T04:13:37Z beach: Since you won't use Cleavir MIR optimizations, it is less risky to add new classes to a MIR program.
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2015-08-20T04:14:47Z drmeister: What are the relative merits of putting it in a dynamic variable vs representing it in MIR?  (I think we've had this conversation).
2015-08-20T04:16:34Z beach: If you keep the information separate, you have two different ways of accessing information about the program, so it is awkward.  On the other hand, if you put it in the MIR code, you introduce specific classes that might make it harder to use general algorithms provided by Cleavir.
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2015-08-20T04:18:54Z beach: When you say "dynamic variable", do you mean a Common Lisp special variable?
2015-08-20T04:19:08Z drmeister: Yes
2015-08-20T04:19:34Z beach: Like I said, it could also be in a lexical variable inside the layout function.
2015-08-20T04:19:53Z beach: The only reason to use a special variable is to avoid passing an additional argument around.
2015-08-20T04:20:03Z beach: But that is not the issue here.
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2015-08-20T04:20:44Z beach: The issue is between representing the information in MIR vs separately in some kind of dictionary (that might be as simple as a single variable).
2015-08-20T04:21:24Z drmeister: Right, and in some cases I use MIR and others I used dynamic variables.
2015-08-20T04:22:03Z beach: Again, a special variable is not the only choice when you keep the information separate.
2015-08-20T04:22:33Z beach: It can be an ordinary lexical variable that you then may have to pass as an additional argument if you use subroutines to do the layout.
2015-08-20T04:22:51Z beach: Maybe I am not being clear.
2015-08-20T04:22:53Z beach: ?
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2015-08-20T04:23:52Z drmeister: No, I understand.
2015-08-20T04:23:54Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/153943
2015-08-20T04:24:01Z drmeister: This is the LAYOUT-PROCEDURE function.
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2015-08-20T04:24:39Z beach: So nothing prevents you from adding another variable to the initial LET*.
2015-08-20T04:24:52Z drmeister: It declares an LLVM function and sets up some dynamic variables that the functions that translate instructions into the LLVM function.
2015-08-20T04:24:57Z beach: It should be a lexical variable unless you have good reasons to make it special.
2015-08-20T04:25:40Z drmeister: Things like *entry-irbuilder* are needed by all translate-XXX-instruction functions.
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2015-08-20T04:26:31Z drmeister: What are the good reasons for making a variable special?
2015-08-20T04:26:33Z beach: And I am saying that the alternative is to pass an additional argument.
2015-08-20T04:27:06Z drmeister: Right, that one I get.
2015-08-20T04:27:29Z beach: Well, for example, if there are lots and lots of intermediate functions, A calls B calls C calls ... calls Z, but only A and Z use the variable.
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2015-08-20T04:28:05Z beach: Then B ... Y would only pass the argument on if it were a parameter.
2015-08-20T04:29:54Z drmeister: What about LAYOUT-PROCEDURE calls LAYOUT-BASIC-BLOCK and L-B-B calls the TRANSLATE-XXX-INSTRUCTION functions and they have fifty different methods?
2015-08-20T04:30:00Z beach: Another example: A leaf function almost always uses a default value of some parameter, and only occasionally do you want to modify that, for example like WRITE.
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2015-08-20T04:30:52Z beach: drmeister: I can't say that generally.  You will have to see how the final code looks.
2015-08-20T04:31:24Z beach: It is generally preferable to use explicit arguments for clarity.
2015-08-20T04:31:55Z loke: Who is metabang?
2015-08-20T04:32:09Z beach: But, of course, if that means you have dozens of parameters, that is not an advantage.
2015-08-20T04:32:25Z loke: He's the dveloper of cl-containers, and I need to get in touch with him about it
2015-08-20T04:32:58Z drmeister: I'm inclined to make it a dynamic variable to avoid having to change every method like: (defmethod translate-simple-instruction ((instruction clasp-cleavir-hir:precalc-symbol-instruction) inputs outputs abi) ...)
2015-08-20T04:33:20Z drmeister: To:  (defmethod translate-simple-instruction ((instruction clasp-cleavir-hir:precalc-symbol-instruction) inputs outputs abi return-value) ...)
2015-08-20T04:33:26Z beach: drmeister: I see what you are saying, but that is generally speaking a bad argument.
2015-08-20T04:33:58Z drmeister: Understood.
2015-08-20T04:34:12Z beach: drmeister: Because it means the reader/maintainer of your code will be puzzled by the choice between an argument and a special variable.
2015-08-20T04:34:24Z drmeister: I can see that.
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2015-08-20T04:34:51Z beach: Usually, when there are two different mechanisms like that, the reader/maintainer looks for a good reason why.
2015-08-20T04:35:10Z drmeister has an adversarial relationship with his hypothetical reader/maintainer.
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2015-08-20T04:35:49Z drmeister: And laziness isn't a good reason I guess.
2015-08-20T04:35:52Z beach: drmeister: Well, I say reader/maintainer, but in my own case that is usually me, a few weeks later.
2015-08-20T04:36:07Z drmeister: screw future me
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2015-08-20T04:36:14Z beach: And I then get very puzzled myself if I don't do it right.
2015-08-20T04:36:31Z Zhivago: He might be dead, after all.
2015-08-20T04:37:00Z White_Flame: which is fine.  You can't tell the future in terms of what direction will be more desirable.
2015-08-20T04:37:22Z beach: drmeister: You suffer from having too good memory.  As the quotation in the LUV slides say, you will be a better programmer when your memory turns to crap.
2015-08-20T04:37:43Z drmeister: Seriously though, here I am considering adding another argument to some large number of methods.  What happens if I have to do this again?
2015-08-20T04:37:45Z Oladon: Heh, I haven't heard that one before.
2015-08-20T04:38:26Z beach: drmeister: It is usually a simple Emacs macro.
2015-08-20T04:38:35Z beach: I never hesitate doing that kind of stuff anymore.
2015-08-20T04:38:45Z drmeister: Then there is that.
2015-08-20T04:39:04Z beach: I typically use a combination of Emacs output of grep and an Emacs macro.
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2015-08-20T04:40:57Z beach: Oladon: "When I was young, I could imagine a castle with twenty rooms with each room having ten different objects in it.  I would have no problem.  I can't do that anymore.  Now I think more in terms of earlier experiences.  I see a network of inchoate clouds, instead of the picture-postcard clearness.  But I do write better programs."  -- Charles Simonyi
2015-08-20T04:42:12Z beach: Oladon: "Some people are good programmers because they can handle many more details than most people.  But there are a lot of disadvantages in selecting programmers for that reason -- it can result in programs no one else can maintain." -- Butler Lampson
2015-08-20T04:42:38Z beach: Section 1.2 of the LUV slides.
2015-08-20T04:44:29Z beach: norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
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2015-08-20T04:47:30Z drmeister: It's fitting to pass it as an argument.  I do that in bclasp.
2015-08-20T04:47:41Z theos: beach those programs are bad programs if the common programmer can maintain it
2015-08-20T04:47:43Z drmeister: Yeah, that's what I'll do.
2015-08-20T04:48:47Z beach: theos: Who said anything about "common programmer"?
2015-08-20T04:49:21Z theos: beach there are common programmers and good programmers
2015-08-20T04:49:22Z beach: theos: I think you know perfectly well what I mean, or rather what Norvig and Pitman mean.  Or at least I hope you do.
2015-08-20T04:49:55Z beach: theos: Nobody mentioned anything about "common programmers" until you did.
2015-08-20T04:50:14Z theos: beach i didnt want to use "bad"
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2015-08-20T04:51:06Z beach: theos: What you are doing is called a "straw man argument".
2015-08-20T04:52:28Z theos: beach so what else does that quote from Mr Lampson mean? what other types of programmers are there other than good?
2015-08-20T04:53:25Z White_Flame: theos: I think the operative term is "Some" right at the beginning. It's not a blanket statement
2015-08-20T04:54:50Z theos: White_Flame if "some people are good programmers" then others are not good.
2015-08-20T04:54:57Z White_Flame: I also agree with the sentiment.  "Be able to hold a billion things in mind without documentation" is an impressive skill, but not one that builds effective team-based projects
2015-08-20T04:55:26Z White_Flame: "Some people are good programmers because they can handle many more details..."
2015-08-20T04:55:36Z White_Flame: vs other people are good programmers because of other reasons
2015-08-20T04:56:28Z theos: thats one way of looking at it
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2015-08-20T04:57:33Z White_Flame: (some (lambda (p) (and (being-a-good-programmer-p p) (having-large-memory-p p)) people)
2015-08-20T04:57:54Z Oladon: beach: :)
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2015-08-20T04:57:59Z White_Flame: well, not precisely, as there's another dependency between the two predicates, but that's the effective breakdown
2015-08-20T04:58:29Z White_Flame: (some #'is-a-good-programmer-because-of-large-detailed-memory people)
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2015-08-20T05:06:34Z pillton: This discussion again. Everybody talks about code and code quality. No body talks about the programmer understanding the purpose of the program and what knowledge this (poor) individual requires in order to for it be implemented. This idea that code can stand on its own is ridiculous.
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2015-08-20T05:08:31Z drmeister: Ok, I redefined every translate-XXX-instruction function to pass the return-value as an argument and all of the ancillary functions that require it as well.
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2015-08-20T05:09:43Z beach: pillton: Do you mean the knowledge that the initial programmer needs in order to write the program that he or she was assigned to write?
2015-08-20T05:10:05Z pillton: beach: Yes.
2015-08-20T05:10:12Z pillton: or maintain.
2015-08-20T05:10:42Z beach: pillton: I can't tell what your opinion is in this matter.
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2015-08-20T05:11:16Z pillton: It is never brought up in discussion.
2015-08-20T05:11:22Z beach: I see.
2015-08-20T05:12:22Z beach: There is, of course, a certain body of domain-related knowledge that is required.
2015-08-20T05:12:38Z beach: You can't expect the code or the comments to supply that.
2015-08-20T05:13:01Z drmeister: In my adopted field (computational chemistry) there is so much domain specific knowledge that few programmers can understand no matter how good they are.
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2015-08-20T05:14:46Z pillton: Exactly. People fail to acknowledge this. Organisations fail to acknowledge this. "You have the code. Go."
2015-08-20T05:15:12Z beach: pillton: I understand.
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2015-08-20T05:15:46Z pillton: beach: I had a question for you actually.
2015-08-20T05:16:00Z beach: OK.  Go ahead.
2015-08-20T05:16:10Z pillton: Are you still looking in to type inference?
2015-08-20T05:16:16Z beach: I am, yes.
2015-08-20T05:16:56Z beach: That was an easy one to answer.
2015-08-20T05:17:23Z pillton: I had the displeasure of reading CLHS 1.4.4.3 the other day.
2015-08-20T05:17:26Z pillton: clhs 1.4.4.3
2015-08-20T05:17:26Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2015-08-20T05:17:53Z pillton: Particularly the bit "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
2015-08-20T05:18:00Z beach: Yes, I know that one.
2015-08-20T05:18:07Z pillton: clhs aref
2015-08-20T05:18:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2015-08-20T05:18:22Z pillton: No exceptional situations are specified for AREF.
2015-08-20T05:18:33Z beach: Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
2015-08-20T05:18:50Z beach: But I take that to mean "other than what 1.4.4.3 says"
2015-08-20T05:19:23Z pillton: I'm sure there is something in CLHS about integrity of the system. e.g. (aref v -1)
2015-08-20T05:19:29Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is very skimpy on the "exceptional situations" part.
2015-08-20T05:19:35Z pillton: I haven't found it. Safe code doesn't mention it.
2015-08-20T05:19:56Z pillton: But.. it got me wondering about proving that the index is within the bounds of an array.
2015-08-20T05:20:36Z beach: As part of the type.  Yes.
2015-08-20T05:21:00Z pillton: If the array dimensions are known at compile time then this is easy.
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2015-08-20T05:21:26Z pillton: I was more interested in the run time part.
2015-08-20T05:21:39Z Bike: (aref v (first-counterexample-to-collatz-conjecture)), eat that inferencer
2015-08-20T05:23:19Z beach: Right.  All that stuff is undecidable in general.
2015-08-20T05:23:32Z beach: pillton: I am still listening.
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2015-08-20T05:24:28Z pillton: If you are iterating over the entire array then the index is guaranteed to be valid.
2015-08-20T05:24:40Z pillton: So there is no need to test the index before retrieving the value.
2015-08-20T05:25:22Z beach: You mean you just check the start and end values and show that they are within bounds?
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2015-08-20T05:25:57Z pillton: Yeah. The compiler gets that information somehow, then optimises accordingly.
2015-08-20T05:27:15Z beach: Sure.  If you have (loop for i from x to y do ... (aref a i)) then you can just check that x and y are correct.
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2015-08-20T05:30:24Z pillton: I was thinking lexical types might be a way to make the problem easier for the compiler.
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2015-08-20T05:31:05Z jasom: pillton: There was a C dialect that guaranteed no-out-of-access arrays and it elided many of the runtime checks
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2015-08-20T05:32:15Z beach: pillton: What are lexical types?
2015-08-20T05:33:29Z pillton: In my mind they are types which are defined lexically and using information from the runtime environment.
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2015-08-20T05:34:00Z pillton: Kind of like macrolet but without the minimal compilation restrictions.
2015-08-20T05:35:26Z pillton: I guess I don't have a question. Just a conversation over a pint.
2015-08-20T05:35:37Z beach: That's fine.
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2015-08-20T05:35:51Z beach: Are you suggesting a language extension, or a compilation strategy?
2015-08-20T05:36:20Z pillton: jasom: How did it create the guarantees?
2015-08-20T05:36:45Z pillton: Both. I'm not a big fan of minimal compilation as it breaks the evaluation model.
2015-08-20T05:36:51Z jasom: pillton: runtime checks, and it used dataflow to eliminate as many of the runtime checks as possible
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2015-08-20T05:37:00Z pillton: jasom: Oh right.
2015-08-20T05:37:30Z jasom: so e.g. if the block you just entered from already had to assert it was at least 20 elements you could eliminate a check that it was at least 18 elements
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2015-08-20T05:38:42Z pillton: beach: And I'm not a big fan of CLHS 1.4.4.3. I understand why it is there. I'm just trying to think of a way to get rid of it.
2015-08-20T05:40:05Z pillton: I have other reasons for pushing lexical types, but I thought it might help with this problem, but I don't think it does now.
2015-08-20T05:40:05Z jasom: or more fancy, if you've already asserted size at least N*2 or N+2 you can elminate a check for size N, even if N is not known at compile time
2015-08-20T05:41:01Z Zhivago: Why does minimal compilation break the evaluation model?
2015-08-20T05:41:38Z pillton: Zhivago: (let ((x 1)) (macrolet ((my-macro () (1+ x))) (my-macro)))
2015-08-20T05:41:46Z pillton: That will signal an error.
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2015-08-20T05:41:53Z pillton: As macros are expanded first.
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2015-08-20T05:42:08Z Zhivago: Ok.
2015-08-20T05:42:13Z pillton: But if you read the evaluation model chapter, it is the LET that is evaluated first.
2015-08-20T05:43:04Z Zhivago: Well, being able to defer the macro-expansion is probably the actual problem.
2015-08-20T05:43:25Z Zhivago: Making it clear that your evaluation model only operates on base CL (without macros) would simplify things.
2015-08-20T05:44:03Z pillton: I don't think it should matter.
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2015-08-20T05:44:58Z pillton: flet doesn't suffer from it. I don't see why macrolet should.
2015-08-20T05:45:45Z Zhivago: Well, functions exist properly at run-time.
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2015-08-20T05:47:16Z pillton: jasom: That is a good idea. I hadn't thought of doing that.
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2015-08-20T05:47:43Z jasom: I wish I could remember what the language was called.  I thought it was cyclone, but that's a different C dialect
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2015-08-20T05:48:47Z loke: jasom: C doesn't have any run-time checks. Are you referring to the compiler having to deal with potential aliasing?
2015-08-20T05:49:08Z jasom: loke: it was a new c-like language, not C itself
2015-08-20T05:49:12Z pillton: Zhivago: As far as I understand, the only thing stopping lexical macros from existing at run-time is minimal compilation.
2015-08-20T05:49:37Z loke: pillton: Yes, but you said that the difference was that it made guarantees that enabled better optimisations.
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2015-08-20T05:50:50Z pillton: loke: Was that for me or jasom?
2015-08-20T05:51:01Z loke: jasom :-)
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2015-08-20T05:52:30Z jasom: loke: no, it made guarantees that slowed it down, and then it optimized heavily to make the overhead go (nearly) completely away in much real-world code
2015-08-20T05:52:54Z loke: jasom: Are you saying it provided safe arrays?
2015-08-20T05:53:03Z jasom: loke: yes
2015-08-20T05:53:09Z loke: Oh, cool.
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2015-08-20T05:56:31Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-20T05:56:55Z loke: Hello jd
2015-08-20T05:57:04Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-08-20T06:20:51Z Bike: What was the work around for that sbcl glitch about "NIL is not of type SB-C:POLICY"?
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2015-08-20T06:26:08Z pillton: Bike: "Just running (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug) once is enough."
2015-08-20T06:26:20Z pillton: according to Stas.
2015-08-20T06:26:37Z pillton: Oh wait.
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2015-08-20T06:27:16Z pillton: Bike: http://hastebin.com/caqedevahi
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2015-08-20T06:37:50Z Bike: thank you.
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2015-08-20T14:03:46Z schjetne: Xach: saw your Opus Modus retweet. That GUI looks really nice, is that CCL with Cocoa?
2015-08-20T14:04:43Z rme: I'm not Xach, but yes, Opusmodus is made with CCL and Cocoa.
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2015-08-20T14:05:27Z schjetne: rme: thanks
2015-08-20T14:05:48Z schjetne: I should give it a try some time
2015-08-20T14:06:04Z Xach: rme knows a lot about opusmodus
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2015-08-20T14:07:02Z rme: I did most of the Opusmodus user interface.
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2015-08-20T14:10:01Z rme: So, Opusmodus is kind of an existence proof that you can do a UI with CCL, but you need to know Cocoa pretty well.  I suppose that's to be expected.
2015-08-20T14:11:06Z schjetne: I guess it's always a trade-off. The cross-platform ones like CAPI seem to look a tiny bit "off" on every platform.
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2015-08-20T14:27:34Z xristos: opusmodus looks amazing
2015-08-20T14:28:01Z xristos: i'll start referring to it when ppl bitch about doing ui work in lisp
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2015-08-20T15:29:39Z PuercoPop: I had a music composer friend try the test version on his mac and he was amazed by the DSL. He exclaimed "I'm writing music". I saw that you can access the lisp listener directly. It seems like a very well done app.
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2015-08-20T15:30:31Z PuercoPop: I'm curious if it is easy to get it to work on linux (sans the GUI of course)
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2015-08-20T15:38:32Z rme: PuercoPop: The non-gui, non-audio-playback parts would work on non-Macintosh systems. I have loaded the non-gui bits on CCL on Windows, for example.  But the Opusmodus source is proprietary, of course.
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2015-08-20T15:48:04Z PuercoPop: rme: the audio playback is also through mac specific API? That is more of a set back.
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2015-08-20T16:07:53Z jackdaniel: bleh, gross, I'm testing if ecl builds fine on windows
2015-08-20T16:10:28Z warweasle: Cocca is Mac only right?
2015-08-20T16:13:51Z PuercoPop: warweasle: yes, atlhough GNUStep attempts to implement the APIs on Linux
2015-08-20T16:13:58Z PuercoPop: iirc
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2015-08-20T16:20:24Z jlarocco_work: I would guess the audio and graphics APIs used in Opus Modus aren't in GnuStep
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2015-08-20T16:21:27Z jlarocco_work: a few years ago when I last tried it, they seemed pretty far behind Apple
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2015-08-20T18:05:03Z gendl: Hi, what is the correct way to redirect *standard-output* to a file?
2015-08-20T18:05:47Z gendl: (setq *standard-output* (open ".../some-file.log" :direction :output :if-exists :append :if-does-not-exist :create))
2015-08-20T18:05:50Z gendl: something like that?
2015-08-20T18:05:55Z oleo: no
2015-08-20T18:05:57Z jackdaniel: (with-open-file (s #P"file" …) (let ((*standard-output* s)) …))
2015-08-20T18:06:00Z oleo: you open the file first
2015-08-20T18:06:01Z oleo: jep
2015-08-20T18:06:05Z Oladon points at jackdaniel's answer
2015-08-20T18:06:19Z oGMo: (with-open-file (*standard-output* ...) ...)
2015-08-20T18:06:33Z gendl: If I want to bind it globally for the rest of the running session?
2015-08-20T18:06:38Z Oladon: You don't.
2015-08-20T18:06:55Z oGMo: or with-output-to-string or whatnot ... don't setf *standard-output*, bind it locally
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2015-08-20T18:07:23Z Xach: There's no problem using setf.
2015-08-20T18:07:30Z gendl: really? But I want every single thing written out to *standard-output* or *standard-error* from this server application to end up in a file.
2015-08-20T18:07:31Z jackdaniel: gendl: you might make closure with *standard-output* over defun
2015-08-20T18:07:34Z Xach: You can use a broadcast-stream if you want to see it and ahve it go to a file.
2015-08-20T18:07:37Z oleo: (with-open-file ........(start-your-session))
2015-08-20T18:07:44Z oGMo: gendl: you can, if you really know it's what you want, but it's probably not in most cases
2015-08-20T18:08:22Z gendl: Currently, my *standard-output* is apparently going nowhere. This is an Allegro windows services application, with no console.
2015-08-20T18:08:26Z gendl: no Allegro console.
2015-08-20T18:08:35Z oGMo: gendl: note that when you start your server, you can bind then locally in whatever thread you create and everything from that will then go to your file, you _still_ don't neet to setf them
2015-08-20T18:08:47Z Bike: clhs dribble
2015-08-20T18:08:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2015-08-20T18:08:50Z Bike: (nobody uses this)
2015-08-20T18:09:03Z oGMo: gendl: in that case you may want to setf them
2015-08-20T18:09:05Z Xach: gendl: friend, I have just recently solved a similar issue, and can discuss it with you!
2015-08-20T18:09:21Z Xach: you may be familiar with the context
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2015-08-20T18:48:59Z knobo: Is there any way that a thread sends a message to parent thread, when it ends?
2015-08-20T18:49:17Z knobo: with for example bordeaux-threads
2015-08-20T18:49:44Z knobo: Or does onw have to use bordeaux-threads:join¨
2015-08-20T18:49:46Z knobo: join-thread
2015-08-20T18:49:53Z knobo: sorry.
2015-08-20T18:49:56Z jlarocco_work: yeah, probably have to use join-thread
2015-08-20T18:50:24Z jlarocco_work: would be my guess, being not very familiar with bordeaux-threads, but being familiar with other thread libraries
2015-08-20T18:50:42Z knobo: jlarocco_work: which one are you using?
2015-08-20T18:50:54Z jlarocco_work: unless you made the thread trigger a condition variable or something
2015-08-20T18:51:18Z jlarocco_work: heh, mostly bordeaux-threads in Lisp
2015-08-20T18:51:49Z jlarocco_work: but in C and C++, though, I don't think that's ever possible without using join
2015-08-20T18:52:22Z knobo: I like erlang's threads/processes.
2015-08-20T18:52:23Z qubitnerd is now known as eru
2015-08-20T18:52:47Z knobo: I don't expect lisp to be that good at handeling threads, though.
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2015-08-20T18:53:14Z oGMo: bordeaux-threads is just the mechanism, if you want communication etc, use something in addition to do spo
2015-08-20T18:53:15Z knobo: What a wonderful world that would be.
2015-08-20T18:53:19Z ` is now known as Guest94750
2015-08-20T18:53:46Z knobo: yes, I think maybe wrapping a unwind-protect around a thread.
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2015-08-20T18:54:41Z knobo: and use event-emitter to handle the signals.
2015-08-20T18:54:46Z oGMo: would not do what you want
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2015-08-20T18:55:16Z oGMo: if you use it inside the thread and use something for passing messages, then yes
2015-08-20T18:55:29Z knobo: event-emitter to send the message
2015-08-20T18:56:36Z knobo: I think we can beat the shit out of erlang :)
2015-08-20T18:56:53Z knobo: Don't tell anyone I said that!
2015-08-20T18:57:06Z jackdaniel: minion: grab knobo
2015-08-20T18:57:06Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2015-08-20T18:57:24Z jackdaniel: oh, minion doesn't have this command
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2015-08-20T20:48:21Z francogrex: in general is it possible to make a lisp image with an integrated alien function that would not depend anymore on the existence of the original "shared" library?
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2015-08-20T20:58:42Z flash-: francogrex: I think only drmeister can answer that definitively, do don't take my word for it. Bt from what I understand that should be the normal behaviour when dumping an image.
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2015-08-20T21:00:42Z Bike: statically linking a dynamic library isn't normal much of anywhere
2015-08-20T21:02:09Z flash-: Whoops, sorry, I thought I was in the clasp channel and this was a question about loading c++ libraries in clasp.
2015-08-20T21:02:37Z flash-: I must have set my emacs to autojoin #lisp.
2015-08-20T21:02:59Z francogrex: anyway, what if it's a static lib?
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2015-08-20T21:04:04Z flash-: So please disregard what I said.
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2015-08-20T21:04:54Z Bike: i don't know. you basically want to copy something out of .text and put it in the image. that's not impossible but it's not part of dl.so.
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2015-08-20T21:05:53Z rme: francogrex: In ccl at least, it's possible to jump through some hoops and link additional code into the lisp kernel that you can then arrange to call from lisp, but that's a lot of trouble.
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2015-08-20T21:09:52Z francogrex: ok
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2015-08-20T21:14:47Z foom: francogrex: we do that with SBCL with a few minor hacks to the build system.
2015-08-20T21:15:39Z foom: We just have it output a .a file which has all the sbcl C binary, including main().
2015-08-20T21:16:02Z foom: Then, link a new binary with that .a and whatever else we want to include
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2015-08-20T21:17:38Z foom: e.g. something like  "gcc -o mysbcl -Wl,--export-dynamic -Wl,--whole-archive sbcl.a -Wl,--no-whole-archive whatever-else.o"
2015-08-20T21:18:11Z foom: Probably should upstream the patch to let the makefile generate libsbcl.a
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2015-08-20T21:20:43Z francogrex: foom: quite interesting. do you have the link to the patch for making libsbcl.a ?
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2015-08-20T21:23:43Z foom: It's just 3 lines to runtime/GNUmakefile:
2015-08-20T21:23:44Z foom: +libsbcl.a: $(OBJS)
2015-08-20T21:23:44Z foom: +	rm -f $@
2015-08-20T21:23:45Z foom: +	ar rcs $@ $^
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2015-08-20T21:27:07Z francogrex: perfect :)
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2015-08-20T22:27:04Z foom: oh, forgot the other thing you need is to make sure you have enabled the sb-dynamic-core target-feature.
2015-08-20T22:28:13Z foom: If you do that, you can use the same core file with both the original sbcl without the linked in extrastuff, AND with the sbcl with the extra linked-in stuff.
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2015-08-20T22:29:04Z foom: So you can compile with plain sbcl binary, and then link in your extra cruft, and load the core dumped from the vanilla one into it.
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2015-08-20T23:01:46Z jlarocco_work: is there a library for doing simple time arithmetic?
2015-08-20T23:02:34Z _death: local-time
2015-08-20T23:02:42Z jasom: jlarocco_work: I'm not sure quite what you need, but I use local-time for anything time/date related
2015-08-20T23:02:46Z jlarocco_work: say I want to find out how much time has passed between 5:15 p.m. and 3:47 a.m.
2015-08-20T23:03:12Z jlarocco_work: is there a wrapper around local-time that makes it less awkward to use in this case?
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2015-08-20T23:03:23Z jasom: jlarocco_work: well, it depends on whether or not there have been any leap seconds :P
2015-08-20T23:03:38Z jlarocco_work: assuming my times will always be within the same 24 hour period
2015-08-20T23:03:40Z jasom: and, since you cross the 3am boundary, DST gets involved too
2015-08-20T23:03:48Z jlarocco_work: I understand that
2015-08-20T23:03:57Z jlarocco_work: my complaint is more with the API/interface
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2015-08-20T23:05:01Z jlarocco_work: if I want to create a timestamp for 3:00 a.m. "today", the only way I see to do it is create a timestamp using (local-time:now), then use local-time:encode-timestamp filling in all the fields, substituting the ones I want to change
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2015-08-20T23:05:43Z jasom: how about (adjust-timestamp (today) (offset :hour 3))
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2015-08-20T23:06:50Z jasom: that gives you 3am in UTC
2015-08-20T23:07:51Z jlarocco_work: oh, neat, that'll do it
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2015-08-20T23:08:41Z jlarocco_work: looks like I want (adjust-timestamp (today) (set :hour 3)) though
2015-08-20T23:08:42Z jlarocco_work: thanks!
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2015-08-20T23:09:19Z jasom: jlarocco_work: FWIW that won't work if your timezone isn't an even-number of hours off of UTC (then you'll need to set minutes as well)
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2015-08-20T23:10:22Z jlarocco_work: i think it's good enough for what I'm doing :-)
2015-08-20T23:11:16Z jlarocco_work: i want a function in my repl that I can say something like (time-until 5 30 :pm) and it will tell me either how long it's been or how long it will be
2015-08-20T23:11:45Z jlarocco_work: if it's not 100% technically correct in obscure corner cases I'm not too worried
2015-08-20T23:12:18Z pjb: jlarocco_work: I use CL.
2015-08-20T23:12:33Z pjb: +, -, encode-universal-time, decode-universal-time, get-universal-time.
2015-08-20T23:12:46Z pjb: I don't know, but perhaps there's a hint hidden in those names…
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2015-08-20T23:19:42Z jlarocco_work: heh, for some reason it didn't occur to me to check the stdlib
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2015-08-20T23:41:51Z zilogBG: Good Evening all :)
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2015-08-20T23:52:17Z Lokathor: why did dash-words become the lisp convention i wonder
2015-08-20T23:56:34Z zilogBG: If you had to do an embedded device project, would implementing a 'LISP machine' on a FPGA worth the time?
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2015-08-21T00:00:25Z pillton: Lokathor: Because pushing shift all of the time is tiresome.
2015-08-21T00:01:02Z Lokathor: i guess
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2015-08-21T00:01:28Z Lokathor: seems about the same as reaching up to type -
2015-08-21T00:02:17Z Lokathor: but it allows you to be case insensitive, if that's a plus
2015-08-21T00:02:22Z Lokathor: might have been a plus on some old systems
2015-08-21T00:02:23Z pillton: Lokathor: No. Your other hand can move to the next key whilst you are reaching for -.
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2015-08-21T00:04:05Z pillton: zilogBG: How you spend your time is your business. Consider the sentence: If you had to paint on a canvas, would you paint a river?
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2015-08-21T00:53:12Z resttime: when you have to use #'sb-int:with-float-traps-masked on a CFFI library function, does that mean the library was not compiled with the float traps already masked?
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2015-08-21T00:55:29Z resttime: errr basically, if it is not used then there is an error like floating-point-overflow or floating-point-invalid
2015-08-21T00:57:11Z resttime: and right now I'm wondering if I can somehow avoid wrapping CFFI library function with #'sb-int:with-float-traps-masks
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2015-08-21T00:58:12Z pillton: resttime: There is sb-int:set-floating-point-modes.
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2015-08-21T00:59:05Z pillton: Are you using a lapack implementation?
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2015-08-21T01:02:04Z resttime: pillton, thanks i'll look into it
2015-08-21T01:02:13Z resttime: no it's liballegro5, i want to help someone who is trying to use my bindings who is getting the error on OS X
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2015-08-21T01:11:41Z pillton: I think SBCL has/had an issue with the way it initialised traps for the "main" thread and other threads.
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2015-08-21T01:12:33Z pillton: I had an issue where things would work fine from SLIME, but errors would errors would be signalled in executables.
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2015-08-21T01:13:23Z pillton: Sorry. I don't know how I managed to write "errors would" twice.
2015-08-21T01:13:50Z resttime: lol
2015-08-21T01:13:53Z resttime: thanks for the info
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2015-08-21T01:19:42Z Bike: resttime: traps are a processor thing, they're basically runtime. c code just sometimes isn't prepared to deal with different modes. why can't you use with-float-traps-masked?
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2015-08-21T01:22:44Z resttime: Bike, no reason that I can't, more like I'm trying to understand the nature of the problem after knowing one solution
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2015-08-21T01:23:31Z rme: Well, it's like Bike said.  Lots of C code doesn't expect FP exceptions to be signaled.
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2015-08-21T01:24:11Z Bike: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_handle.html the frightening introduction
2015-08-21T01:24:36Z resttime: and wondering if there are different ways to fix
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2015-08-21T01:32:22Z resttime_: Hrmm, d/c'd for bit
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2015-08-21T01:32:42Z resttime_: alright, thanks for the information
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2015-08-21T01:33:01Z resttime_: and i'll read through that page
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2015-08-21T02:36:54Z Lokathor: http://quickdocs.org/cl-ncurses/ this page here says that i need to (require :uffi) to get cl-ncurses to work
2015-08-21T02:37:04Z Lokathor: but when i do that in my lisp session it returns nil
2015-08-21T02:37:18Z Lokathor: i'm guessing it should return T
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2015-08-21T02:38:04Z Lokathor: or is that fine?
2015-08-21T02:38:16Z rme: what's (find-package :uffi) return?
2015-08-21T02:38:37Z Lokathor: #<PACKAGE "UFFI">
2015-08-21T02:38:43Z rme: Oftentimes, functions return nil when nothing better seems suitable.
2015-08-21T02:38:46Z Bike: require's return value is implementation defined, so either one's probably ok
2015-08-21T02:38:48Z rme: There you go.
2015-08-21T02:38:53Z Lokathor: oh okay
2015-08-21T02:38:55Z Bike: you might want to use quickload instead though
2015-08-21T02:39:19Z Bike: there's also this: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms
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2015-08-21T02:40:23Z Lokathor: i am using quickload
2015-08-21T02:40:59Z Bike: if you're doing (ql:quickload :cl-ncurses) or the like it'll also load uffi for you.
2015-08-21T02:41:21Z Quadrescence: use cl-charms!
2015-08-21T02:41:22Z Quadrescence: :)
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2015-08-21T02:42:15Z Lokathor: oh no! the source for their snake example is missing :P
2015-08-21T02:43:00Z Lokathor: cl-charms seems to be loading in more dependencies, but i can test it out in a second
2015-08-21T02:44:57Z Bike: it uses cffi, cffi-grovel, and alexandria (a utility library)
2015-08-21T02:45:07Z Lokathor: uhhh, both of the examples crashed
2015-08-21T02:46:03Z lpaste_: Lokathor pasted “error messages” at http://lpaste.net/139314
2015-08-21T02:46:31Z Lokathor: oh you have to load the examples seperately!
2015-08-21T02:46:41Z Bike: well, yes.
2015-08-21T02:47:02Z Lokathor: wonderful
2015-08-21T02:47:03Z Lokathor: it works
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2015-08-21T03:05:11Z Lokathor: huh
2015-08-21T03:05:12Z Lokathor: the demo worked
2015-08-21T03:05:18Z Lokathor: but my program does not
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2015-08-21T03:09:51Z Lokathor: https://github.com/Lokathor/seric/blob/master/seric.lisp when i try to run this i get: SIMPLE-ERROR: NIL is not a Lisp string or pointer.
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2015-08-21T03:10:49Z Lokathor: i can see no obvious differences between my code and the example: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/examples/timer.lisp
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2015-08-21T03:12:27Z Lokathor: oh.. this version of get-char doesn't wait until there's a char
2015-08-21T03:12:31Z rme: Probably charms:get-char has returned nil for some reason.
2015-08-21T03:12:54Z Lokathor: yeah it returns nil if a char isn't ready
2015-08-21T03:12:56Z Lokathor: that's... weird
2015-08-21T03:14:14Z Bike: well, it makes sense for interactive applications, you wouldn't want to hang the event loop
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2015-08-21T03:14:49Z Lokathor: right, but i wouldn't assume it to be the default
2015-08-21T03:14:57Z Lokathor: because, well, that's not how curses normally works
2015-08-21T03:15:21Z Lokathor: hmm, okay so i fixed it to block while waiting for input
2015-08-21T03:15:43Z Lokathor: i press "a" and then it says SIMPLE-ERROR: a is not a Lisp string or pointer.
2015-08-21T03:16:00Z Lokathor: how does one best convert a char to a string in lisp?
2015-08-21T03:16:03Z Bike: (string char)
2015-08-21T03:16:50Z pillton: Non blocking APIs are the best.
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2015-08-21T03:17:29Z Lokathor: they're nice and all, just not expected because the default style for curses in every other language is blocking
2015-08-21T03:17:33Z Lokathor: it works now!
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2015-08-21T03:33:14Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-21T03:33:24Z Lokathor: cl:charms doesn't seem to have a way to make the cursor invisible
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2015-08-21T03:39:22Z Lokathor: oh, except there's a whole charms/ll package
2015-08-21T03:39:44Z Lokathor: well, that's for tomorrow
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2015-08-21T04:00:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-21T04:00:35Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-08-21T04:02:50Z theos: good morning beach
2015-08-21T04:04:50Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
2015-08-21T04:05:10Z emaczen: morning beach
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2015-08-21T04:10:01Z beach: So it looks like jackdaniel is going to take over the maintenance of the ANSI test suite.
2015-08-21T04:11:35Z Oladon: jackdaniel: congrats!
2015-08-21T04:13:27Z beach: There was some confusion there.  Apparently rtoym turned it into a GIT repository on GitHub, but ehu didn't know so he continued to improve the subversion repository.  Now, jackdaniel is planning to merge everything on GitLab.
2015-08-21T04:15:58Z beach: Since jackdaniel is actively maintaining ECL, he is currently the one who discovers the need for new tests, and who discovers incorrect tests.  It is therefore a good fit to have jackdaniel maintain the test suite as well.
2015-08-21T04:16:15Z pjb: Lokathor: the character set of the original lisp was: 0123456789#="###+ABCDEFGHI%.)###-JKLMNOPQRØ'*### /STUVWXYZ±,(###     (# being an "invalid" code).  What character do you want to use to separate words in symbols?
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2015-08-21T04:28:20Z jackdaniel: * be one of people maintaining ;-) thx Oladon
2015-08-21T04:28:23Z jackdaniel: good morning all
2015-08-21T04:29:21Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-08-21T04:29:52Z beach: Right.  You won't be alone of course.
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2015-08-21T04:45:54Z beach: jackdaniel: For what it's worth, I think what you are doing is great, i.e., just take over an abandoned implementation and improving it.  You learn a lot by doing that, but you also provide a service to the community.  I wish more people would do something similar.
2015-08-21T04:46:45Z beach: For example, CLISP could use a maintainer.
2015-08-21T04:47:55Z Oladon has that announcement open in a tab still...
2015-08-21T04:48:20Z beach: About CLISP needing a maintainer?
2015-08-21T04:48:23Z Lokathor: pjb, i wouldn't suggest a character to seperate words, rather i would suggest camelCase
2015-08-21T04:48:23Z Oladon: Aye.
2015-08-21T04:48:50Z Oladon: Lokathor: generally Lispers don't use camelCase
2015-08-21T04:48:56Z Bike: no lowercase. tragic
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2015-08-21T04:50:59Z Lokathor: yeah quite a while ago i had been musing on why it was that lisp always stuck with dash-words
2015-08-21T04:51:23Z Oladon: Lokathor: There's a whole section in PCL on it :)
2015-08-21T04:51:36Z Lokathor: i do not recall such a section
2015-08-21T04:52:01Z myrkraverk: Can Postmodern s-sql alias table names?  Like SELECT t.col FROM tab t;
2015-08-21T04:53:40Z beach: Oladon: I encourage you to become the CLISP maintainer. :)
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2015-08-21T04:54:27Z Oladon: Lokathor: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html#s-expressions <-- search for "symbol". I guess it's not a whole section, really, just a bit :)
2015-08-21T04:54:53Z Oladon: beach: I shall take this under advisement.
2015-08-21T04:55:00Z beach: Great!
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2015-08-21T04:56:38Z Lokathor: oh, yes, i read that section. however, the explanation "we use dash-words because more characters can be in a lisp symbol" didn't seem particularly strong on its own
2015-08-21T04:57:07Z myrkraverk: Oladon: a very minor bit, and doesn't explain the convention at all; except in the context of Algol-derived languages not having it.
2015-08-21T04:57:44Z Oladon: I thought I remembered there being more in there about it, but I might (must?) be misremembering.
2015-08-21T04:58:00Z myrkraverk: Maybe you're confusing books?
2015-08-21T04:58:05Z Oladon: It's quite possible.
2015-08-21T04:58:11Z beach: COBOL had that convention, as I recall.
2015-08-21T04:58:12Z pillton: "It's standard Lisp style--not to mention more in line with normal English typography--to form compound names with hyphens, such as hello-world, rather than with underscores,"
2015-08-21T04:58:14Z Oladon: Well, not confusing... conflating.
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2015-08-21T04:58:38Z myrkraverk: pillton: is that in gigamonkeys?
2015-08-21T04:58:38Z Lokathor: also, interning all systems to be the all caps version of the textual name strikes me as being one of those things that was kept in for compatibility with a pre-common lisp implementation
2015-08-21T04:58:59Z pillton: myrkraverk: Yep.
2015-08-21T04:59:02Z Oladon: pillton: Yeah, that!
2015-08-21T04:59:06Z myrkraverk: Personally, I'd intern it case-sensitive; which iirc xemacs does.
2015-08-21T04:59:39Z pillton: Pressing the shift key all of the time gets annoying.
2015-08-21T04:59:43Z pillton: That is my reason.
2015-08-21T04:59:47Z myrkraverk: C:
2015-08-21T04:59:55Z Lokathor: you're not the first lisper to tell me that today :3
2015-08-21T05:00:21Z myrkraverk: From a readability point of view, there's little different between_this and-that.
2015-08-21T05:00:27Z pillton: Lokathor: No. I have told you twice. :)
2015-08-21T05:00:32Z Lokathor: oh my!
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2015-08-21T05:01:01Z Lokathor: myrkraverk, yeah i would never suggest using underscores rather than dashes. i'd suggest a version of the language that just didn't change case when interning
2015-08-21T05:01:06Z pillton: Ironically, ( isn't an issue for me.
2015-08-21T05:01:07Z Oladon: myrkraverk: well, except that nobody grows up reading underscore-separated words, since we don't /use/ underscores in "regular" English
2015-08-21T05:01:22Z beach: There is usually no logical explanation for conventions.  It is just the way things turned out.
2015-08-21T05:01:31Z Lokathor: often so
2015-08-21T05:01:43Z myrkraverk: Oladon: well, people do encounter C code at an early age (well, some people).
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2015-08-21T05:02:28Z Oladon: I did specify regular English. Most people I know don't go around reading C for the fun of it.
2015-08-21T05:02:28Z Oladon: ;)
2015-08-21T05:02:46Z myrkraverk: Now, since apparently getting answers to postmodern s-sql question isn't likely here - where else can I ask?
2015-08-21T05:03:06Z myrkraverk: Oladon: I sometimes read C for the fun of it ;p
2015-08-21T05:03:29Z Oladon: Anecdotal.
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2015-08-21T05:03:42Z myrkraverk: Is there another likely irc channel, or do I have to ask on stack overflow?
2015-08-21T05:04:15Z pillton: myrkraverk: The mailing list perhaps?
2015-08-21T05:04:24Z myrkraverk: Oh, yeah.  That.
2015-08-21T05:04:34Z myrkraverk: *checks if subscribed*
2015-08-21T05:05:46Z jackdaniel: beach: I appreciate that opinion :-)
2015-08-21T05:06:15Z beach: Of course you do, after all that proofreading. :)
2015-08-21T05:07:25Z jackdaniel: there will be more after the weekend! ;-)
2015-08-21T05:07:37Z beach: Oh no! :)
2015-08-21T05:07:47Z Oladon yawns
2015-08-21T05:07:47Z Oladon: I should sleep.
2015-08-21T05:07:49Z beach: I might have to subcontract it.
2015-08-21T05:07:58Z beach: 'night Oladon.
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2015-08-21T05:08:18Z Oladon: G'night
2015-08-21T05:08:43Z emaczen: What is recommended for unit testing after the ASDF build process?
2015-08-21T05:11:08Z jackdaniel: emaczen: some people use 5am, some value stefil
2015-08-21T05:16:36Z pillton: emaczen: I have used lisp-unit and 5am. 5am is better suited to systems that have multiple packages.
2015-08-21T05:17:46Z emaczen: pillton: what do you currently use.
2015-08-21T05:17:51Z emaczen: jackdaniel: What are you using?
2015-08-21T05:18:10Z pillton: I am currently transitioning to 5am.
2015-08-21T05:20:55Z emaczen: jackdaniel: What testing system does ECL use?
2015-08-21T05:21:49Z jackdaniel: emaczen: ecl uses rt framework – descendant of sb-rt and ansi-tests testing frameworks
2015-08-21T05:23:01Z emaczen: ahh
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2015-08-21T06:02:39Z H4ns: myrkraverk: are you aware of sabra's postmodern site?
2015-08-21T06:03:59Z H4ns: myrkraverk: wrt to your question: yes it can.  (:select 'x.* (:as 'table-name x))
2015-08-21T06:04:15Z H4ns: myrkraverk: the :as syntax works for joins as well
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2015-08-21T06:05:01Z H4ns: myrkraverk: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples is the site that you need to know about
2015-08-21T06:05:39Z myrkraverk: Yes, but I didn't see examples there either.
2015-08-21T06:05:46Z H4ns: myrkraverk: sorry:  (:select 'x.* (:as 'table-name 'x))
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2015-08-21T06:07:02Z H4ns: myrkraverk: the example for AS on sabra's site aliases a column name, but the syntax is the same.
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2015-08-21T06:09:20Z H4ns: myrkraverk: you're welcome, it was a pleasure helping you
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2015-08-21T06:12:28Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2015-08-21T07:04:00Z emaczen: I'm following this example: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html for getting the fiveam test-suite to run but it won't run my tests
2015-08-21T07:04:53Z emaczen: Is this outdated?
2015-08-21T07:06:18Z pillton: emaczen: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc/blob/master/tests/asdf.lisp
2015-08-21T07:06:35Z pillton: emaczen: This is for lisp-unit, but it should give you the idea.
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2015-08-21T07:07:10Z pillton: emaczen: That will allow you to do (asdf:test-system "basic-binary-ipc-tests")
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2015-08-21T07:08:48Z myrkraverk: H4ns: thank you.
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2015-08-21T07:16:39Z emaczen: pillton: Thanks, I got it to work -- I'll trying wiring it together now.
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2015-08-21T07:20:00Z myrkraverk: H4ns: I only saw the (:as ...) being used for column names - didn't think to try it for tables too.
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2015-08-21T07:23:52Z emaczen: Can anybody show me how to get the :perform shorthand to work in the asd file?
2015-08-21T07:24:59Z emaczen: I have: (test-op :after (op c) (fiveam:run! solitaire-tests::solitaire-test-suite))
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2015-08-21T07:25:26Z emaczen: I get the error that package fiveam doesn't exist because my .asd file is in package #:asdf-user
2015-08-21T07:25:40Z pillton: I wouldn't do that. It requires having (eval-when () (asdf:load-system "5am")) prior to the system definition.
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2015-08-21T07:27:50Z pillton: emaczen: Good luck. I have to go.
2015-08-21T07:28:00Z emaczen: thanks.
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2015-08-21T07:41:13Z emaczen: pilton: cool, I got it.
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2015-08-21T08:05:51Z loke: hello
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2015-08-21T08:09:24Z djh: hi
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2015-08-21T08:11:37Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-08-21T08:22:15Z theos: o/
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2015-08-21T08:43:41Z jackdaniel is a spoiled children – forgets to add ";" after C statements :D
2015-08-21T08:44:07Z jackdaniel: lines°, or forms°
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2015-08-21T08:48:47Z H4ns: jackdaniel: your dashes show up as dash and inverse space, supposedly because you're mapping your dash to some fancy character combination.  it looks annoying, and it is garbled in the logs as well.  consider using just an ascii dash.  http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2015-08.txt
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2015-08-21T09:04:24Z jackdaniel: it's "em dash" and "degree" signs - didn't know your terminal isn't utf, I'll try to make exception on this channel
2015-08-21T09:04:32Z jackdaniel: thanks for noticing
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2015-08-21T09:07:34Z antoszka: H4ns: Your irc output is being reading as some single-byte encoding and then saved as a UTF-8 representation of this wrong reading. So it's the fault of the erroneous translation, not of the bytes that jackdaniel sent to the channel (i'm reading UTF-8 quite right, and tend to use it as well where necessary).
2015-08-21T09:07:43Z antoszka: s/reading/read/
2015-08-21T09:08:28Z H4ns: antoszka: I'm just annoyed because emacs highlights the space.  the logs are garbled because they assume ascii or latin1
2015-08-21T09:08:49Z antoszka: yeah, assuming latin1/ascii in 2015 is kinda not quite right :)
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2015-08-21T09:09:38Z H4ns: antoszka: if you care, talk to whoever maintains the logs.
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2015-08-21T09:10:01Z antoszka: ASCII-dash is an okay replacement for the m-dash, but sometimes you want to user proper characters for quotes, degree signs, lambdas et caetera.
2015-08-21T09:10:07Z antoszka: Sure, who's maintaining the logs?
2015-08-21T09:10:10Z ferada: H4ns: you can just view the logs as utf-8, it displays fine in the browser
2015-08-21T09:11:33Z H4ns: "dren – forge" is what is displayed in mine.  besides, there is zero need to encode a dash other than as an ascii dash.
2015-08-21T09:12:08Z ferada: i meant if you change the encoding manually (from whatever the server sends) to unicode, but nvm
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2015-08-21T09:14:10Z jackdaniel: as I said - I'll try to use "-" on this channel. Regarding "there is zero need to encode ..." - that's true, but using dash in context of m-dash is simply a type (at least in my language), just like using regional character equivalents or putting comma instead of period
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2015-08-21T09:14:19Z jackdaniel: s/type/typo/
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2015-08-21T09:20:54Z mood: I have a plist that I'd like to pretty-print with names and values on a line by themselves. Is that possible with pprint? If so, how?
2015-08-21T09:21:11Z mood: Basically, just two elements per line
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2015-08-21T09:28:40Z jackdaniel: maybe compile format string "~{~A: ~A~^~%~}" ?
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2015-08-21T09:36:53Z chrnybo: varjag: Re: HN "Debugging Lisp, Part 5", I see there is a commented block containing #'trace-method in sbcl/src/pcl/env.lisp
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2015-08-21T09:37:55Z myrkraverk: Funny, when refactoring perl into lisp and my code has no loops anymore.
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2015-08-21T09:38:30Z varjag: chrnybo: ah.. well i was thinking more along the non-implementation specific lines
2015-08-21T09:38:41Z jackdaniel: so the plan to get rid of all these loop constructs is just to refactor lisp to perl and then back to lisp? :-))
2015-08-21T09:38:44Z varjag: it's cumbersome though
2015-08-21T09:39:25Z myrkraverk: jackdaniel: hahahahaha.
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2015-08-21T09:40:20Z myrkraverk: I'm sure the libraries I'm using use loops, of some sort, but *my* code suddenly has none whatseover.
2015-08-21T09:43:50Z chrnybo: varjag: Yeah, HN user crististm asked you for a clarification, seems he/she (hen? :)) didn't quite get your intent.
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2015-08-21T09:48:23Z francogrex: Hi I didn't know that: (defparameter *db* ...) then (defpackage :mso (:use :rcl :cl :sqlite) (:import-from :cl-user *db*)) then (in-package :mso) ...
2015-08-21T09:48:57Z francogrex: I could directly use *db* in the mso package. I thought I had to use cl-user:*db* !
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2015-08-21T10:35:55Z beepbeep_: Can anyone explain why this is an illegal function call? https://gist.github.com/aaronmu/2e67040501aebe5506d6
2015-08-21T10:36:14Z beepbeep_: do I need to wrap it in funcall?
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2015-08-21T10:41:44Z oleo: what are you doin there ?
2015-08-21T10:41:48Z Cymew: ((insertseq seq doesn't look like a legal function call
2015-08-21T10:42:17Z beepbeep_: well, I'm trying to recur on the lambda
2015-08-21T10:42:23Z beepbeep_: I'm not saying this quite right
2015-08-21T10:42:29Z beepbeep_: :p
2015-08-21T10:42:59Z oleo: oO
2015-08-21T10:43:05Z Cymew: This looks like scheme-isms
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2015-08-21T10:43:14Z oleo: that's schemish yes
2015-08-21T10:43:28Z oleo: use labels
2015-08-21T10:43:29Z beepbeep_: Cymew, well, yes, I'm reading "the little schemer" but doing exercises in cl
2015-08-21T10:43:33Z beepbeep_: so yeah, schemish :p
2015-08-21T10:43:36Z oleo: lol
2015-08-21T10:43:44Z beepbeep_: I don't know any cl language features!
2015-08-21T10:43:59Z Cymew: Unless you really know how to keep them apart, that will generate errors like that
2015-08-21T10:44:13Z beepbeep_: well, the book has cl translations
2015-08-21T10:44:20Z oleo: what is insertseq supposed todo ?
2015-08-21T10:44:51Z loke: beepbeep_: You shouldn't. Scheme and CL are very different. In this case specifically, you are trying to implement a loop using recursion which you should never do in CL
2015-08-21T10:45:00Z loke: beepbeep_: there is the LOOP macro for that purpose.
2015-08-21T10:45:03Z beepbeep_: oleo, it inserts new before or after (based on seq) old in a list.
2015-08-21T10:45:12Z beepbeep_: loke, the book is about recursion, thx for the advice though :p
2015-08-21T10:45:33Z loke: beepbeep_: Then use a language which supports/encourages tail recursion
2015-08-21T10:46:06Z beepbeep_: well this is just for educational purposes.. cl was easier to install .. that's all.
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2015-08-21T10:46:17Z Cymew: There's nothing stopping you from doing recursion in CL, but then you'd do it differently
2015-08-21T10:46:51Z Cymew: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2015-08-21T10:46:56Z Cymew: Read up on those
2015-08-21T10:47:14Z Cymew: But, that's not beginner territory.
2015-08-21T10:47:17Z beepbeep_: yeah, I don't doubt that, really, guys.. I'm just interested in finishing the little schemer right now haha
2015-08-21T10:47:28Z beepbeep_: I understand that this is a bit weird
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2015-08-21T10:47:37Z Cymew: It might be quicker to just install a good scheme environment
2015-08-21T10:47:38Z beepbeep_: should've realized before asking a question here :D
2015-08-21T10:48:33Z beepbeep_: Cymew, good point
2015-08-21T10:49:23Z Cymew: If you have a problem description we can guide you through how CL handles that. But, if you are more interested in the concepts of the book, install a good scheme and talk to #scheme
2015-08-21T10:49:45Z Cymew: It's supposedly a very good book, so I'd go that route.
2015-08-21T10:49:50Z loke: beepbeep_: Installing a scheme is as easy as typing apt-get NameOfYourScheme
2015-08-21T10:49:56Z loke: like apt-get install guile
2015-08-21T10:50:14Z loke: I'm sure there are others. I don't use scheme though so I don't know what they are called.
2015-08-21T10:50:41Z Cymew: Then when you feel like diggin into CL get back here and we can argue about the merits of recursion and DO vs LOOP. ;)
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2015-08-21T10:51:42Z jackdaniel: DO!
2015-08-21T10:51:54Z jackdaniel: or even DO+
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2015-08-21T10:53:05Z Cymew: I've gone recursion crazy lately, and grabs LABELS for so many problems. It will implode soon, I'm sure...
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2015-08-21T11:08:52Z oleo: beepbeep_: btw you don't need the lambda anyway .....
2015-08-21T11:09:19Z oleo: beepbeep_: it's the code for rember i see......
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2015-08-21T11:12:29Z Cymew: Talking about implementation choices. If you have data in a hash table, how do you usually handle it if you need it sorted? Transform to alist, array, list or something else?
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2015-08-21T11:13:13Z Cymew: i.e. the values needs sorting, not the keys
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2015-08-21T11:13:38Z oleo: beepbeep_: no wait it's the code for insertR
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2015-08-21T11:14:10Z Shinmera: Cymew: I keep a copy of the values in an array that gets rebuilt when an entry gets added or changed in priority/whatever sorting criterium.
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2015-08-21T11:19:48Z Cymew: Shinmera: Then you MAPHASH for that value to find the key again?
2015-08-21T11:20:29Z Shinmera: Cymew: why would I want to find the key again?
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2015-08-21T11:21:41Z Cymew: In my case I want to be able to search for both, but I realize as I type this that I could just use two hash tables and use whichever when I want to look up value/key...
2015-08-21T11:22:08Z Shinmera: Depending on your set size just having a plain alist might be better anyway.
2015-08-21T11:22:23Z Shinmera: Always benchmark.
2015-08-21T11:22:25Z Cymew: I often only uses lists, or full blown CLOS objects so I'm kind of unused to hashes...
2015-08-21T11:23:09Z Cymew: Good reality check. Thanks Shinmera
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2015-08-21T11:26:33Z oleo: beepbeep_: https://gist.github.com/aaronmu/2e67040501aebe5506d6
2015-08-21T11:27:46Z oleo: beepbeep_: hmm ice cream! lol
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2015-08-21T11:37:47Z beepbeep_: thx oleo
2015-08-21T11:38:13Z oleo: beepbeep_: you see the else branches are not named else.....
2015-08-21T11:38:27Z oleo: beepbeep_: and the lambda is not needed (defun has an implicit lambda)
2015-08-21T11:38:49Z beepbeep_: well, the chapter was about currying :p
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2015-08-21T11:39:04Z beepbeep_: well it isn't about currying, but it introduces currying
2015-08-21T11:39:06Z oleo: beepbeep_: which chapter ?
2015-08-21T11:39:20Z beepbeep_: 8. Lambda the ultimate
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2015-08-21T11:40:21Z beepbeep_: insertseq is a function that returns a function
2015-08-21T11:40:25Z beepbeep_: hence the lambda part
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2015-08-21T11:49:14Z oleo: beepbeep_: are you talking about remberf ?
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2015-08-21T11:49:28Z oleo: beepbeep_: err rember-f......
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2015-08-21T11:51:00Z oleo: beepbeep_: is that what you are implementing ?
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2015-08-21T11:55:22Z oleo: beepbeep_: i hope you see the cl hints in that book........
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2015-08-21T12:32:01Z AeroNotix: Anyone know if there's a Jute compiler for Common Lisp?
2015-08-21T12:33:47Z jackdaniel: what is Jute?
2015-08-21T12:33:57Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: something similar to protobufs
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2015-08-21T12:36:51Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-21T12:41:33Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: seems quite simple, but would be nice if someone wrote a parser for it
2015-08-21T12:41:52Z AeroNotix: I suppose a lot of the code you output could be quite generic with regards to which stream implementations you use
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2015-08-21T14:09:38Z hitecnologys: minion: memo for Lokathor: If you have any questions about cl-charms, feel free to ask me or Quadrescence. The code is still buggy sometimes so feedback is really appreciated.
2015-08-21T14:09:38Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Lokathor when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-21T14:14:58Z flip214: hmm, only sometimes? does it depend on the phase of the moon and the air pressure?   ;P
2015-08-21T14:15:33Z PuercoPop: emaczen: pillton It is easier to use uiop/package:symbol-call. It is designed especifically for cases like this one, when the form is read before the package is laoded. So your perform test-op would be something like (uoip/package:symbol-call :fiveam 'run! ''solitaire-tests::solitaire-test-suite)
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2015-08-21T14:26:09Z dmarinoj: Xach: eudoxia on #guix recommended that I ask you for advice about writing an importer for common lisp
2015-08-21T14:26:27Z dmarinoj: Xach: I am trying to package stumpwm for guix
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2015-08-21T14:32:48Z loke``: dmarinoj: Importer?
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2015-08-21T14:39:38Z dmarinoj: Xach: For guix, so from quicklisp to scheme recipie
2015-08-21T14:41:11Z dmarinoj: loke``: have you heard on guix?
2015-08-21T14:42:26Z loke``: dmarinoj: I know it's a Linux distro. That's about it.
2015-08-21T14:42:54Z loke``: dmarinoj: What is it you're trying to fo?
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2015-08-21T14:44:39Z scymtym: dmarinoj: iirc, dim has done something similar for quicklisp -> debian package. maybe that could be a starting point
2015-08-21T14:45:24Z dmarinoj: Write some scheme to grab information from quicklisp about packages such as name, source, description, liscence, etc.
2015-08-21T14:45:41Z Shinmera: Link to dim's project: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb
2015-08-21T14:45:55Z dmarinoj: scymtym: Will check that out
2015-08-21T14:46:03Z dmarinoj: Shinmera: thanks
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2015-08-21T14:58:29Z Xach: dmarinoj: http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt is the entry point for gathering that info. it links to other resources and is periodically updated.
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2015-08-21T15:01:01Z dmarinoj: Xach: Thanks, that looks great, I really appreciate it
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2015-08-21T16:31:37Z creyc: can anyone help me properly re-indent this snippet of code http://paste.lisp.org/display/154008
2015-08-21T16:32:24Z Xach: creyc: what kind of lisp is that?
2015-08-21T16:32:32Z creyc: visual lisp
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2015-08-21T16:34:06Z Xach: creyc: this channel is generally for common lisp. i reindented as emacs and cl convention would dictate, and updated the paste.
2015-08-21T16:34:34Z p_l: for autocad, it was surprisingly readable anyway
2015-08-21T16:34:44Z creyc: ah, noted. thank you Xach
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2015-08-21T16:42:31Z fe[nl]ix: I wonder what the / means
2015-08-21T16:42:36Z fe[nl]ix: &optional ?
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2015-08-21T17:33:45Z dlowe: it's clearly an argument named /
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2015-08-21T17:38:41Z Xach: http://exchange.autodesk.com/autocad/enu/online-help/browse#WS1a9193826455f5ff1a32d8d10ebc6b7ccc-6a70.htm
2015-08-21T17:38:53Z Xach: It looks more like &aux
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2015-08-21T17:45:40Z PuercoPop wonders why &aux is not used more in CL.
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2015-08-21T17:48:46Z dlowe: I use it for "local constants"
2015-08-21T17:49:16Z dlowe: otherwise LET is just more readable.
2015-08-21T17:49:45Z jackdaniel: aux is more LET* -like, right?
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2015-08-21T17:51:20Z Xach: PuercoPop: fashion
2015-08-21T17:51:50Z Xach: PuercoPop: there are lots of ways to do the same things, and how you write them depends on what you see when you're learning
2015-08-21T17:52:28Z Xach didn't see mapc used much until working with some lisp nerds from the 70s and 80s
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2015-08-21T17:52:45Z Shinmera: I like my arglists short. Line breaks in them gives me the heebie-jeebies.
2015-08-21T17:54:18Z Shinmera: And &aux would definitely increase the line-break pressure.
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2015-08-21T17:56:29Z phf: my guess was always that in some old lisps aux allocated on stack, where's let would allocate on heap, so doing aux allocation was a form of optimization pre-cl. of course, it's entirely a guess, so would be nice if someone who knows could confirm deny.
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2015-08-21T18:05:09Z PuercoPop: In some cases it is more of a trade-off between lambda list length vs the extra indentation of the let. If the let is only for one variable I prefer aux. Like defining a return value for dolist. Xach I agree I learned about aux when reading code from the 90's. No 'modern' code seems to use it.
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2015-08-21T18:06:20Z Xach: PuercoPop: some "modern" people do use it. but not a lot.
2015-08-21T18:08:45Z phf: steele agrees with you guys "nothing can be done with aux that can't be done with let*. which to use is a matter of style" (paraphrase)
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2015-08-21T18:14:42Z pjb: &aux is not used because it merges two different concepts that have nothing in common: function signature and local variables.
2015-08-21T18:16:06Z phf: there's a longish thread on the subject, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/WGyjmda34LQ
2015-08-21T18:17:35Z phf: one comment is that aux can be used in boa constructors to do non-trivial initialization for values that you still don't want to be passed
2015-08-21T18:18:26Z pjb: Which is a rather specific use case.
2015-08-21T18:19:03Z pjb: Similary, you would use it in macro, to add local variables without having to parse docstrings declarations and bodies.
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2015-08-21T18:19:19Z pjb: But this is not something that you would use directly with a defun or similar.
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2015-08-21T18:20:14Z phf: pjb: there's one suggestion, that is related to your point, that you can use aux as a placeholder while trying to figure out precise function signature. i.e. "should be required, an opt, a key, or will eventually be pushed into a let"
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2015-08-21T18:46:12Z PuercoPop: pjb: There have something in common, function arguments are 'local variables', they establish a scope
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2015-08-21T18:54:47Z jackdaniel: ECL release candidate published \o/ https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/files/
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2015-08-21T18:55:18Z Oladon cheers jackdaniel on
2015-08-21T18:56:00Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-08-21T19:28:12Z hitecnologys: flip214: maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Who knows?
2015-08-21T19:28:57Z Oladon: The ways of bugs are mysterious indeed.
2015-08-21T19:31:10Z oleo shows his scarabeum to Oladon!
2015-08-21T19:31:12Z oleo: lol
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2015-08-21T19:45:50Z dxtr: So, in sbcl there's sb-ext:*posix-argv*. Is there an equivalent in ccl?
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2015-08-21T19:47:06Z phf: dxtr: ccl:*COMMAND-LINE-ARGUMENT-LIST*
2015-08-21T19:47:15Z Shinmera: dxtr: Have a look at the implementation of uiop:command-line-arguments
2015-08-21T19:47:24Z Shinmera: or just use that directly.
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2015-08-21T19:48:09Z dxtr: Shinmera: Oh, neat! Thanks!
2015-08-21T19:48:18Z dxtr: phf: You too, thanks :)
2015-08-21T19:48:45Z phf: dxtr: you usually can just do (apropos ...) to answer that sort of questions. i was in clozure repl when you asked, and i tried argv, and arguments, in order
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2015-08-21T19:49:55Z Xach: it can be hard to guess what they're called sometimes though.
2015-08-21T19:50:18Z Xach: i M-. into uiop for that from time to time. the only problem is hitting a with-upgradeability form
2015-08-21T19:50:27Z Xach: or knowing what uiop calls it...
2015-08-21T19:50:29Z dxtr: phf: Oh, thanks. I didn't know this.
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2015-08-21T19:58:12Z dim: Xach: hell yeah, the with-upgrade* in uiop and asdf hits me a lot
2015-08-21T19:58:29Z dim: it makes reading the sources much harder than it should
2015-08-21T19:58:36Z dim: I hope it's for a good reason in return
2015-08-21T19:58:47Z Xach: there was a paper or talk or both on the topic
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2015-08-21T19:59:59Z PuercoPop: to allow asdf to upgrade itself.
2015-08-21T20:00:46Z dim: I'd like to work again of have pgloader --self-upgrade work, but wiring that into ASDF is nore complex than I wanted it to
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2015-08-21T20:01:26Z dim: A friend of mine wrote https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder to ease the pain, but it would mean for me to stop using buildapp and I'm used to it
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2015-08-21T20:02:58Z pjb: PuercoPop: function parameters are local variables.  But a function signature is only a template for function parameters.
2015-08-21T20:03:17Z pjb: PuercoPop: the question is whether you consider it from the outside or from the inside.
2015-08-21T20:03:56Z pjb: dxtr: uiop:*command-line-arguments* is "portable".
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2015-08-21T20:36:05Z Shinmera: Bah, I didn't get as far as I should've today, but I guess this'll have to do for a day: https://youtu.be/szGU6mHgADQ
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2015-08-21T20:39:22Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: wat
2015-08-21T20:39:37Z Xach: I like how it syncs with the music
2015-08-21T20:39:55Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: I just realized that you can have such an awesome IDE setup for lisp
2015-08-21T20:40:01Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: this is still emacs, correct?
2015-08-21T20:40:05Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-08-21T20:40:18Z Shinmera: You can see my config here https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs
2015-08-21T20:40:52Z Shinmera: Xach: That gives me a neat idea, actually.
2015-08-21T20:41:00Z Xach: Syncing to the music?
2015-08-21T20:41:21Z Shinmera: Yeah. Having some kind of abstract definition of the beats in a music track that the program uses to influence the motions of the particles.
2015-08-21T20:41:37Z Xach: cool
2015-08-21T20:41:40Z Shinmera: I doubt I can get such a system up for tomorrow's Ludum Dare, but it's an idea to keep for later.
2015-08-21T20:42:00Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: tie it to some sort of BPM
2015-08-21T20:42:08Z phoe_krk: That should be easy enough to calculate
2015-08-21T20:42:22Z dlowe: Shinmera: nice. I look forward to seeing a transparency knob
2015-08-21T20:42:33Z phoe_krk: Since there are already algorithms for calculating BPM from a given song
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2015-08-21T20:43:26Z jasom: Shinmera: out of curiousity, what do you use for your toolbar?  It looks a bit like dwm
2015-08-21T20:43:30Z Shinmera: phoe_krk: in my experience, games that try to automatically generate patterns based on a song work far less than stellarly.
2015-08-21T20:43:45Z Shinmera: jasom: The WM is i3.
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2015-08-21T20:44:07Z jasom: Shinmera: and what gives you the statusbar at the top?
2015-08-21T20:44:39Z phoe_krk: Shinmera: or you could just calculate it by hand and slap a number into your code
2015-08-21T20:44:45Z Shinmera: jasom: i3pystatus with https://github.com/Shinmera/.i3/blob/master/status.py
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2015-08-21T20:50:32Z Shinmera: Might as well announce this here too: over the coming weekend I'll be streaming pretty much all the time, as I'll be working on a Ludum Dare game (in CL of course). More info: http://tumblr.shinmera.com/post/127067380324/ludum-dare
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2015-08-21T20:51:23Z Shinmera: I don't know if anyone else that works with CL is going to participate too, though it would certainly be neat.
2015-08-21T20:51:31Z phoe_krk: wow
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2015-08-21T20:57:00Z Shinmera: For now, it's time to sleep. Good night, #lisp
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2015-08-21T21:22:08Z Lokathor: style guide sort of question: when a function's purpose is to simply wrap another function with setup/teardown code, should that generally be a macro instead?
2015-08-21T21:22:09Z minion: Lokathor, memo from hitecnologys: If you have any questions about cl-charms, feel free to ask me or Quadrescence. The code is still buggy sometimes so feedback is really appreciated.
2015-08-21T21:24:13Z pjb: Lokathor: not really. But remember to use unwind-protect to effectively run the teardown code even in case of non-local exit.
2015-08-21T21:24:46Z pjb: Lokathor: also, if your setting/tearingdown procedude is the same or parametrizable, you can do it with a high order function.
2015-08-21T21:24:58Z Lokathor: yes i noted that in the cl-charms "with-curses" thing
2015-08-21T21:25:10Z pjb: (funcall (wrapping (function meat) parameter) argumnets).
2015-08-21T21:25:27Z Lokathor: yeah i would normally do a higher order function, but people keep saying "macros macro macros!", and yet i'm not seeing as many chances to use them compared to a normal higher order function
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2015-08-21T21:25:58Z Oladon: There's a bit of an urge to overuse macros when you're first learning about them -- maybe that's where those people are coming from?
2015-08-21T21:26:00Z pjb: Now, you may want to write a with- macro if you expect to use this thing with a lot of anonymous functions.
2015-08-21T21:26:26Z pjb: (with-wrapping (parameter) (a) (b) (c)) --> (funcall (wrapping (lambda () (a) (b) (c)) parameter)).
2015-08-21T21:26:46Z Lokathor: Oladon, well, i'm just reading PCL and On Lisp and such, and they talk about how macros are this majorly important feature compared to other langauges
2015-08-21T21:26:53Z Oladon: ah
2015-08-21T21:26:58Z Oladon: both good books
2015-08-21T21:26:59Z pjb: You often have a with-something macro that expand to a call to a function `(call-with-something (lambda () …))).
2015-08-21T21:27:12Z Lokathor: while that may be true, a lot of what they say is great about lisp seems to simply be first-class functions at work
2015-08-21T21:27:52Z Lokathor: and a few other related language features that C/C++ lacks but others don't lack any more, like closures and such
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2015-08-21T21:28:16Z bubblezz: Hello, all. I am interested in learning programming. I have narrowed it down to two books: K&R and SICP. I know they are quite different, but I am a newbie who wants to learn material that won't become obsolete in teh coming decades. People have told me that "C is immortal" and that "SICP teaches you theory that will last", so I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Any help?
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2015-08-21T21:28:47Z Oladon: bubblezz: You could read both. :P
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2015-08-21T21:29:15Z Lokathor: bubblezz, it's a matter of preference. K&R C teaches you how to use a tool right away, SCIP teaches you more about the things you might want to use a tool to do.
2015-08-21T21:29:47Z bubblezz: So SICP is language agnostic?
2015-08-21T21:29:52Z Lokathor: not at all
2015-08-21T21:30:00Z Lokathor: SCIP is very much oriented towards Scheme, a kind of lisp
2015-08-21T21:30:20Z Lokathor: but the higher level concepts can be taken to other languages
2015-08-21T21:30:20Z pjb: bubblezz: read sicp first.  You can read k&r later, but I would actually advise you to get a more recent book to learn C programming.
2015-08-21T21:30:51Z Lokathor: i would also suggest SCIP over K&R if you don't otherwise know programming
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2015-08-21T21:31:19Z dwchandler: bubblezz: also, if SICP makes your head hurt, try https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2015-08-21T21:31:19Z pjb: bubblezz: only the examples in sicp are written in scheme. You can do them in any programming languages (there are blogs where you can find them done in CL, in C++, in anything).
2015-08-21T21:31:47Z pjb: bubblezz: but of course, I would advise to learn scheme (at least, read r5rs) while reading sicp.
2015-08-21T21:32:13Z pjb: bubblezz: then if you want to learn more scheme, you can read r7rs and htdp How to Design Programs -- An Introduction to Computing and Programming  http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/
2015-08-21T21:32:58Z pjb: For C, you could try: http://icube-icps.unistra.fr/img_auth.php/d/db/ModernC.pdf  or http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Modern-Approach-2nd-Edition/dp/0393979504
2015-08-21T21:33:19Z pjb: But definitely, read sicp first, you'll lose less time.
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2015-08-21T21:33:53Z Lokathor: bubblezz, what is it that you want to learn programming to do?
2015-08-21T21:34:33Z pjb: That's another question. When you want to do something you often have to learn another programming language, because that something is often in the context of a proprietary system such as iOS or Android.
2015-08-21T21:34:58Z pjb: But if you don't already know lisp, C and smalltalk, you'll have difficulties learning those proprietary systems.
2015-08-21T21:35:54Z Lokathor: hitecnologys, question: what would you suggest as the way to make the cursor invisible? the low-level bindings files has (define-exported-cfuns ("curs_set") :int (visibility :int)), but I'm not clear on if you expect people to bypass the higher level layer and just make low-level calls directly or not. There appears to be no high-level version of visibility changes though.
2015-08-21T21:36:23Z Lokathor: pjb, odd that you'd put smalltalk on the list
2015-08-21T21:36:26Z pjb: And for jobs, you should also know prolog. So for a complete formation, (scheme smalltalk prolog C).  Or you can just learn Common Lisp, it covers everything (the lisp side of course, the OOP side (smalltalk was implemented in lisp originally), the logic programming side (prolog was implemented in lisp originally), and even the low level system programming (lisp is lower level than C).
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2015-08-21T21:37:09Z pjb: Lokathor: well iOS and Android are basically decadent smalltalk system, with all the good feature lost on the way.
2015-08-21T21:37:22Z bubblezz: Lisp is lower level than C? Impossible!
2015-08-21T21:37:31Z pjb: ruby = decadent (matzacred) lisp+smalltalk = python.
2015-08-21T21:38:06Z pjb: bubblezz: indeed.  For example, in lisp you have DPB and LDB and bit vectors. In C you don't, so you have to play with & | ^ and ~ on integers.
2015-08-21T21:38:11Z pjb: and << and >>
2015-08-21T21:38:43Z Lokathor: bubblezz, at one point you could have your OS itself written directly in lisp
2015-08-21T21:38:52Z pjb: Cf. Mezzano.
2015-08-21T21:39:37Z Zhivago: Given that low-level is essentially meaningless, why not?
2015-08-21T21:39:44Z pjb: exactly.
2015-08-21T21:40:09Z jasom: The lisp standard (like the C standard) does not marry itself to a single machine type, so leaves certain low-level details unspecified.  However, most lisp implementations provide low-level primitives (just as most C implementations do).
2015-08-21T21:40:37Z pjb: Most CL implementations include a LAP assembler (VOP in sbcl).
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2015-08-21T21:40:57Z pjb: And Movitz and Mezzano run on bare hardware and let you implement an OS.
2015-08-21T21:41:15Z Lokathor: pjb, I don't know about ruby, but python has dropped more than a few of lisp's great features, sadly
2015-08-21T21:41:26Z pjb: Yes, they're all degenerate.
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2015-08-21T21:41:54Z jasom: variables inside closures are read-only in python
2015-08-21T21:42:08Z jasom wishes he were making this up
2015-08-21T21:42:13Z pjb: :-)
2015-08-21T21:42:18Z Lokathor: python has weird variable scope in general
2015-08-21T21:42:19Z pjb: Kind of defeat the purpose entirely.
2015-08-21T21:42:41Z pjb: If they're read-only you could as well pass them as parameter…
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2015-08-21T21:43:51Z Lokathor: well, they're not always read only, i think, if you use "nonlocal" on them
2015-08-21T21:44:26Z jasom: ah, that's a python 3ism I think, right Lokathor?
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2015-08-21T21:45:12Z Lokathor: maybe? i learned python before python3 was out and don't know much about 3, but i know that you can define a function inside of another function, and then return the inner one
2015-08-21T21:45:23Z Lokathor: and it keeps its bindings, and i think it can modify its bindings
2015-08-21T21:45:37Z jasom: nonlocal is required to keep it from implicitly generating a new binding
2015-08-21T21:46:08Z jasom just checked and nonlocal isn't in python2
2015-08-21T21:47:16Z bubblezz: How fast do most of you read these technical programming books? Are they interesting or do you learn them just so you can do intersting stuff? How do you get through them?
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2015-08-21T21:47:18Z jasom: implicitly generating bindings is just evil in my mind
2015-08-21T21:47:32Z Zhivago: Python has lexical closure in the usual sense.
2015-08-21T21:47:43Z Lokathor: bubblezz, programming languages are like real languages: the more you learn the faster you can learn each new one
2015-08-21T21:47:59Z Lokathor: and if you know one similar to a new one you learn that new one faster as well
2015-08-21T21:48:00Z Zhivago: The confusing issue is that it doesn't distinguish between variable assignment and variable establishment.
2015-08-21T21:48:26Z Zhivago: And that's why it seems as though lexically closed over variables as immutable -- but they're not.
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2015-08-21T21:48:39Z Zhivago: You're just establishing a local binding when you imagine that you're assigning.
2015-08-21T21:48:39Z jasom: Zhivago: is there any syntax to do it in python2?
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2015-08-21T21:48:56Z Zhivago: I don't know.
2015-08-21T21:49:15Z jasom: If there's no syntax to mutate it, then it's immutable.
2015-08-21T21:50:15Z lpaste_: Lokathor pasted “No title” at http://lpaste.net/139383
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2015-08-21T21:50:25Z Lokathor: well i tried that and got an unbound variable error
2015-08-21T21:50:43Z Lokathor: before i could even see if you could reset the value of bonus
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2015-08-21T21:53:33Z dwchandler: I think you people scared bubblezz
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2015-08-21T21:53:40Z dwchandler: ;-)
2015-08-21T21:54:16Z Lokathor: they never said waht they wanted to learn programming to do
2015-08-21T21:54:37Z Lokathor: i have a friend that wants to start learning programming to get paid at it because she works at a bakery
2015-08-21T21:54:43Z dwchandler: bubblezz: for K&R and SICP, read them so you understand everything - don't rush.
2015-08-21T21:55:21Z Lokathor: i suggested python and other C-style languages; lisp might be better in the long run, but will not land her a job any time soon without much more training
2015-08-21T21:55:22Z dwchandler: ANd do at least some of the exercises
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2015-08-21T21:55:30Z pjb: Lokathor: did you advise you to talk to her baker?  I doubt he has a programming job for her.
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2015-08-21T21:56:03Z jasom: bubblezz: it really depends on the book.  LiSP I read basically straight through because it was engaging.  Other books I'll read the first few chapters and then pick the parts I need from the rest.  For anything that is specifically a teaching book, you should probably go through and do the exercises.
2015-08-21T21:56:20Z Lokathor: pjb, what? i think you typed that wrong
2015-08-21T21:56:27Z pjb: bubblezz: do all the exercises and write a lot of programs, and read even more programs.
2015-08-21T21:56:36Z pjb: Lokathor: yes, the second "you" should be "her"
2015-08-21T21:56:40Z Lokathor: exercises can't be overstated in importance
2015-08-21T21:57:07Z Lokathor: pjb, no i did not advise such a thing
2015-08-21T21:57:20Z jasom: Exercises are so important that the world will explode if you don't do them (Just to prove Lokathor wrong)
2015-08-21T21:57:35Z pjb: Just joking, because the fact that she works at a bakery is rather irrelevant.
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2015-08-21T21:58:37Z Lokathor: perhaps. it serves to illustrate her currently entirely non-technical line of work, rather than say a network tech who wanted to pick up programming
2015-08-21T21:59:14Z Lokathor: jasom, i don't think you overdid it
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2015-08-21T22:02:04Z pjb: Damned.  I wanted to search a left parenthesis in a lisp program!
2015-08-21T22:05:04Z pjb: /openp/ ;better
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2015-08-21T22:06:59Z Lokathor: today i actually got the "the garbage collector might fire at the wrong time" spiel from a guy when i said i was going to use cl-charms
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2015-08-21T22:10:15Z Zhivago: Exercises are good to pretend the phenomenon of having pretended to read the book.
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2015-08-21T22:12:47Z pjb: Really, when was the last time you saw the garbage collector working?
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2015-08-21T22:19:00Z jasom wonders what would be a long GC pause for a ~1GB heap on sbcl?
2015-08-21T22:19:26Z Lokathor: pjb, the person in question was using SDL via FFI bindings. The package wasn't efficient enough, apparently, and so occasionally the GC would fire and he'd get a 500ms pause in the game
2015-08-21T22:19:43Z Lokathor: which is enough to notice if suddenly the animation totally pauses
2015-08-21T22:20:03Z Lokathor: but since it was in the context of a terminal based roguelike, i didn't feel that the fear was very justified
2015-08-21T22:20:12Z jasom: If you're consing in a thread that does animations, then you're doing it wrong
2015-08-21T22:20:20Z pjb: call (ext:gc) while blanking.
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2015-08-21T22:20:44Z Lokathor: yeah he eventually set it up by writing his own wrapper that always aggressively called gc during level loads
2015-08-21T22:20:49Z Lokathor: when people expect a small delay already
2015-08-21T22:21:34Z jasom: pjb: even a nursery gc takes ~10ms which might be too much for a blanking call
2015-08-21T22:22:35Z jasom: really I just need to get off my butt and finish my concurrent incremental gc for sbcl
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2015-08-21T22:23:37Z jasom: I estimate I have 5 years left before I finish it
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2015-08-21T22:24:14Z jasom: the sbcl GC code is fairly hairy, particularly in the case where it has a single stack.
2015-08-21T22:24:34Z Lokathor: jasom, you work on SCBL?
2015-08-21T22:24:59Z jasom: Lokathor: no, but I'm interested in garbage collection, and it seemed easier than writing an entire lisp system from scratch
2015-08-21T22:25:28Z Lokathor: ah
2015-08-21T22:25:34Z jasom: Oh, the 5 years estimate is for the incremental gc, so it still wouldn't be concurrent
2015-08-21T22:25:44Z Lokathor: i was going to ask why SBCL was so unstable on windows
2015-08-21T22:25:50Z jasom: I have about 1 hour a weeks worth of time to work on it
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2015-08-21T22:26:03Z Lokathor: it just says that it "is unstable" without saying much more if you fire up SBCL on windows
2015-08-21T22:26:21Z jasom: Lokathor: I thought it was stable these days.  But in any event the sbcl devs don't use windows, so it doesn't get much windows testing, and if you don't test it, then it doesn't work.
2015-08-21T22:26:46Z Lokathor: yeah
2015-08-21T22:27:06Z Lokathor: i just picked up ccl for if i need it instead
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2015-08-21T22:27:17Z Lokathor: my lisp work doesn't take place on a windows machine either way
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2015-08-21T22:47:08Z Lokathor: minion
2015-08-21T22:47:29Z Lokathor: minion help
2015-08-21T22:47:32Z Lokathor: hmm
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2015-08-21T22:54:49Z pjb: try: /msg minion help
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2015-08-21T23:25:56Z Lokathor: well
2015-08-21T23:26:01Z Lokathor: i think i got it to store a memo
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2015-08-21T23:34:33Z aeth: If you want a decent CL (or any language) on Windows (or on IBM mainframes or some other proprietary OS), then just make a popular application and hopefully that will shame either the company or its fanboys into put some effort into it.
2015-08-21T23:34:44Z aeth: Let <best thing ever> run poorly on Windows.
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2015-08-21T23:37:05Z Lokathor: no good
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2015-08-21T23:37:11Z Lokathor: minecraft is about as popular as it gets
2015-08-21T23:37:15Z Lokathor: still runs like garbage a lot of the time
2015-08-21T23:37:29Z Lokathor: and people still hate installing a JVM
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2015-08-21T23:44:31Z aeth: If you program to maximize profit, you probably still want C or C++ for desktop applications. C# pretends to be portable but ime that just leads to a lot of slow/buggy apps that claim to support Linux through Mono.
2015-08-21T23:46:09Z aeth: If you want to create interesting things by yourself or with a small team in a very concise line count, use Lisp.
2015-08-21T23:47:00Z aeth: You might be able to do passable commercial client-side Lisp with a commercial Lisp implementation, idk.
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2015-08-21T23:49:01Z aeth: (Of course, everyone's going for the goldmine of mobile so I'm not sure anything of what I said is even relevant in 2015.)
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2015-08-21T23:54:39Z Lokathor: well, to get a programming job at all
2015-08-21T23:54:43Z Lokathor: java is kinda the way to go
2015-08-21T23:56:11Z aeth: Java is enterprise programming and Android, and pretty much nothing else afaik. You bring up Minecraft but that's just about the only popular Java game. C# with Unity is way more popular for games.
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2015-08-22T00:00:44Z Lokathor: well, in my particular city the most common jobs available are for enterprise java sorts of things
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2015-08-22T00:01:18Z Lokathor: i don't think as many people get hired into game development as get hired overall
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2015-08-22T00:03:21Z aeth: Yeah, but do you want a Java programming job? Lisp programming is like painting a painting, Java programming is like painting a wall.
2015-08-22T00:03:55Z jasom wonders if he would like programming for a living
2015-08-22T00:04:02Z aeth: One advantage of being a niche language is you don't have IDEs and frameworks that take all the fun out of programming.
2015-08-22T00:04:24Z aeth: s/being/using/
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2015-08-22T00:05:46Z jasom: aeth: yes, clearly when smalltalk and lisp were more popular they had IDEs that took all the fun out of programming...
2015-08-22T00:06:41Z aeth: jasom: That was then. Common Lisp could probably be Javaified in 2015 if people really wanted to.
2015-08-22T00:07:03Z aeth: In fact, IDEs are easier for s-expression languages afaik
2015-08-22T00:07:16Z jasom: crappy IDEs are more a symptom of a lack of language avaialable at runtime than anything else
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2015-08-22T00:08:34Z jasom: You have java IDEs written 100% int java for which you can't inspect the source code of the widgets
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2015-08-22T00:09:04Z aeth: You can make a crappy IDE for any language. It's just that Lisp enables decent IDEs.
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2015-08-22T00:09:57Z jasom: aeth: right, s/IDEs took all the fun out of programming/java took all the fun out of programming/ ftfy
2015-08-22T00:10:11Z Lokathor: aeth, i wouldn't want a java programming job, but i'm also a depressed shut in
2015-08-22T00:10:22Z Lokathor: so it's hard for me to tell
2015-08-22T00:10:35Z aeth: jasom: but at least half of the bad things with Java are culture and conventions, not language features, imo
2015-08-22T00:10:36Z Lokathor: I had a java programming job once, and i didn't enjoy it too much
2015-08-22T00:11:39Z Lokathor: IDEs, as far as i've ever used them, rely quite a bit on static analysis
2015-08-22T00:11:44Z Lokathor: that's a little tricker in lisp
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2015-08-22T00:12:44Z Lokathor: oh, question, is there a command in slime to perhaps dump all the current definitions you've made in the repl out to a file?
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2015-08-22T00:22:33Z Xach: Lokathor: no
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2015-08-22T00:25:36Z Lokathor: i don't think python has such a thing either
2015-08-22T00:25:45Z Lokathor: really i'd think that would be one of the best features to put into a REPL
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2015-08-22T00:29:31Z gendl: Here's a general question, not really Lisp-specific, but this applies to a Lisp-based server application, so here goes...
2015-08-22T00:29:49Z gendl: I have a bunch of server processes running on ports, let's say 9000-9050.
2015-08-22T00:30:08Z gendl: they are running inside a 'safe-start' script which will re-spawn each one if it dies.
2015-08-22T00:30:40Z gendl: when each one starts up, it runs a little test to probe for the next available port, starting with 9000, then starts its own server on the next available, let's say 9010.
2015-08-22T00:32:21Z gendl: But if we kill all 50 of them at once, they all re-spawn at once, so there's a lot of contention for those available ports. It can happen that one of them detects an available port, but by the time it actually starts its listener, that port has been grabbed by another. So we error, die, & re-spawn.  Eventually everybody starts up and listens on the correct
2015-08-22T00:32:21Z gendl: port, but there's a lot of contention and wasted effort during that respawning process.
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2015-08-22T00:33:31Z gendl: So is there a known best practice for avoiding this kind of contention? I know Ethernet has some kind of backing off strategy for collisions, involving waiting an increasing random amount of time before trying again, doesn't it?
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2015-08-22T00:34:11Z Xach: gendl: ethernet does
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2015-08-22T00:47:00Z Lokathor: gendl, it sounds like the process shouldn't die when it fails to get a port, it should be the one to wait an increasing time period and try again
2015-08-22T00:47:39Z Lokathor: assuming that the manager just restarts without too much caring about why a child died
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2015-08-22T00:51:03Z phoe_krk: Lokathor: "assuming that the manager just restarts without too much caring about why a child died"
2015-08-22T00:51:12Z phoe_krk: this is so horribly wrong out of its context
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2015-08-22T01:02:38Z gendl: Lokathor: Thanks. That sounds like a reasonable approach. Right now the process dies any time it hits an error - so failing to start on a port causes automatic death. I can wrap that with an ignore-errors, then wait a random amount of time, then try again... and so on...
2015-08-22T01:03:31Z Lokathor: well hopefully the manager can tell why a process died
2015-08-22T01:03:47Z Lokathor: if it can, then it can make the decision to wait or not
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2015-08-22T01:05:21Z gendl: Well the manager doesn't know or care why a process died right now - but that brings up another, maybe simpler idea - just have the manager always wait a small random amount of time before respawning. Just doing that would probably reduce contention a lot, and woudn't require any changes in the actual application startup.
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2015-08-22T01:13:57Z Lokathor: this sounds like a common case in erlang
2015-08-22T01:14:06Z Lokathor: but an erlang process is cheap to start and let die
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2015-08-22T01:14:20Z Lokathor: if it's an actual OS process, then yeah you want to avoid them starting and dying all the time
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2015-08-22T01:20:15Z edtoast_46: please try joining #edtoast .I would greatly appreciate it
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2015-08-22T01:25:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to get commonqt working on OSX
2015-08-22T01:26:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: The window opens and the content displays, but as soon as I click on it, I get a "FLOATING-POINT-OVERFLOW" message
2015-08-22T01:28:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154029
2015-08-22T01:30:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm using this to test commonqt: https://gist.github.com/wedesoft/3993305
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2015-08-22T01:35:24Z resttime: fiddlerwoaroof, wrap the call like this (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:overflow) (foo))
2015-08-22T01:36:08Z resttime: OS X seems to have some funky problems with floating point traps
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2015-08-22T01:39:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: resttime, thanks
2015-08-22T01:39:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: that works
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2015-08-22T02:14:07Z pjb: gendl: your processes should try port (+ 9000 (mod (getpid) (- 9050 9000))) first, and next, incrementing randomly.
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2015-08-22T03:20:46Z atgnag: So, apparently there's a lisp typsetter. http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/7K42/sdataQ0cLSNXvtxcWDM==/sdataQucgleWmCuSG9eWI$Nmw
2015-08-22T03:21:02Z atgnag: Do you belive it could be as successful as TeX, if it got some love?
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2015-08-22T03:33:47Z Lokathor: it could i guess maybe
2015-08-22T03:34:29Z Lokathor: but there's a lot of maybe there
2015-08-22T03:34:46Z White_Flame: needs more docs, unless I'm missing something
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2015-08-22T03:45:38Z atgnag: White_Flame: Agreed.
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2015-08-22T03:59:59Z edtoast_46: Join #ToastIRC Today
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2015-08-22T04:07:37Z gendl: this actually seems to work reasonably:
2015-08-22T04:07:56Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ngjlVIuU/
2015-08-22T04:08:53Z gendl: even though I have trouble following the logic flow, and it's pretty much the first time I have ever used (block ...)  and (return-from ...).
2015-08-22T04:09:27Z gendl: client-test is a little http client which returns non-nil if the port appears to be available.
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2015-08-22T04:09:51Z atgnag: gendl: I can't read that paste without enabling javascript. Paste it elsewhere please.
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2015-08-22T04:13:11Z gendl: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154036
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2015-08-22T04:32:09Z gendl: Anyway, moving on...
2015-08-22T04:32:28Z gendl: using bordeaux-threads, I want to set up several threads to run,
2015-08-22T04:32:42Z gendl: then have them all start simultaneously.
2015-08-22T04:35:56Z gendl: with condition-notify, it's "... implementation-dependent whether one or more than one (and possibly all) threads are woken ..."
2015-08-22T04:36:34Z gendl: but in this case, I do want to notify (i.e. wake) all threads which are waiting on the condition-variable.
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2015-08-22T04:57:48Z gendl: basically I think i'm looking for condition-variable-broadcast. That doesn't appear to exist in Bordeaux-threads, I guess because something like it is not avaialble in all CL implementations?
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2015-08-22T05:44:43Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: there isn't one. Basically, there should be a function that sets it invisible, visible and option for WITH-CURSES.
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2015-08-22T05:45:38Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: there is, though, cl-tui which has above mentioned thing.
2015-08-22T05:46:08Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: if it's text UI you're after, definitely check it out.
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2015-08-22T05:46:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-22T05:47:01Z hitecnologys: beach: morning!
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2015-08-22T06:42:54Z theos: hey
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2015-08-22T06:55:23Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-22T06:55:46Z beach: Hello jackdaniel
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2015-08-22T06:59:32Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-08-22T06:59:47Z jackdaniel: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/ecl-devel/2015-August/010913.html
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2015-08-22T07:04:32Z beach: jackdaniel: Congratulations!
2015-08-22T07:04:46Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-22T07:06:16Z jackdaniel: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10101782 - my first thread on HN (:
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2015-08-22T08:43:06Z knobo: congrats
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2015-08-22T08:51:28Z oleo_: morning
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2015-08-22T09:18:13Z knobo: I'd like to be in a file with a certain package, and hit a key combo that creates a new repl and jump to that repl with the package the file uses.
2015-08-22T09:18:35Z knobo: in slime...
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2015-08-22T09:20:07Z knobo: Are there any functions that creates a new additionaly repl for the current connection?
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2015-08-22T09:26:08Z jackdaniel: knobo: I think swanks doesn't close listener after connecting
2015-08-22T09:26:13Z jackdaniel: so you still can connect
2015-08-22T09:26:17Z jackdaniel: thx btw
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2015-08-22T09:30:29Z knobo: jackdaniel: I up-voted your story
2015-08-22T09:30:41Z jackdaniel: thats good, thanks :-)
2015-08-22T09:31:21Z knobo: I like ecl, because I see that as a posibility to make android apps (in the future)
2015-08-22T09:31:26Z jackdaniel: I doubt it will make it to front page, but it probably doesn't look sexy enough
2015-08-22T09:31:40Z jackdaniel:  /topic that is/
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2015-08-22T09:32:24Z knobo: Change the topic then, to: Sexy, Embeddable Common-Lisp 16.0.0 RC1 available
2015-08-22T09:32:32Z jackdaniel: heheh ^_^
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2015-08-22T09:32:39Z jackdaniel: SECL
2015-08-22T09:32:49Z knobo: :)
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2015-08-22T11:59:24Z solyd: hi guys. how can i compare strings based on some encoding?
2015-08-22T11:59:38Z solyd: string< doesn't let me specify that it's comparing utf8 string for example
2015-08-22T12:00:01Z Shinmera: strings don't have an encoding.
2015-08-22T12:01:30Z Shinmera: You need to specify the encoding when you decode a /binary representation/ into a string.
2015-08-22T12:01:54Z Shinmera: As in, when you read a file, stream, socket, whatever the hell you're doing.
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2015-08-22T12:02:42Z solyd: okay i see, just a bit confusing coming from cpp where strings are attached to underlying byte representation
2015-08-22T12:03:15Z Shinmera: Strings have a character set, which is implementation dependant.
2015-08-22T12:03:48Z Shinmera: On most implementations that character set is unicode.
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2015-08-22T12:04:15Z Shinmera: So yeah: Look wherever you're processing bytes and fix that to have the encoding you need.
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2015-08-22T12:07:36Z Xach: I think I've seen authentication protocols that specify a certain bunch of strings be sorted by their utf-8 octet sequence representation.
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2015-08-22T13:05:31Z dxtr: This is quite interesting
2015-08-22T13:05:37Z dxtr: uiop:file-exists-p doesn't seem to work with dotfiles
2015-08-22T13:05:43Z dxtr: Under OSX
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2015-08-22T13:07:42Z dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154052
2015-08-22T13:08:16Z dxtr: Is this inteded behavior or am I missing something?
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2015-08-22T13:11:13Z knobo: I use (annot:enable-annot-syntax), and I get an error when I recompile the file with C-c C-k: MYPACKAGE  also exports the following symbols
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2015-08-22T13:15:06Z beach: knobo: That sounds like the error that SBCL signals when you redefine a package where one or more symbols removed in the new definition compared to the old one.
2015-08-22T13:16:43Z beach: WITH one or more symbols... I suppose.
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2015-08-22T13:20:40Z knobo: So, cl-annot is maybe not so amazing after all?
2015-08-22T13:20:45Z knobo: Or, did I do something wrong?
2015-08-22T13:21:09Z jackdaniel: dxtr: how do you provide pathname?
2015-08-22T13:21:15Z knobo: maybe I should have the defpacage in a different file.
2015-08-22T13:21:32Z knobo: That would help.
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2015-08-22T13:22:17Z jackdaniel: dxtr: if you give #P".abcde" as an argument, then abcde is considered being file extension – try (make-pathname :name ".abcde")
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2015-08-22T13:25:13Z knobo: much better
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2015-08-22T13:28:17Z dxtr: jackdaniel: Right
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2015-08-22T13:31:21Z dxtr: jackdaniel: That didn't help
2015-08-22T13:31:24Z rme: dxtr: does probe-file work?
2015-08-22T13:31:40Z dxtr: rme: Yep
2015-08-22T13:33:04Z rme: Then that makes me suspect that there's a bug in uiop:file-exists-p.
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2015-08-22T13:33:37Z jackdaniel: dxtr: (uiop:file-exists-p (make-pathname :directory "/Users/dxtr/" :name ".zhistory")) doesn't work?
2015-08-22T13:33:38Z dxtr: According to https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/filesystem.lisp it's not a huge function
2015-08-22T13:33:51Z dxtr: So I'm not sure how much could go wrong :p
2015-08-22T13:34:25Z dxtr: jackdaniel: Correct.
2015-08-22T13:34:43Z dxtr: CL-USER> (uiop:file-exists-p (make-pathname :directory "/Users/dxtr/" :name ".zhistory"))
2015-08-22T13:34:44Z dxtr: NIL
2015-08-22T13:35:41Z jackdaniel: and this file isn't symbolic link (neither some part of directories)?
2015-08-22T13:35:48Z jackdaniel: s/part of//
2015-08-22T13:36:24Z dxtr: Exactly
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2015-08-22T14:13:30Z knobo: dxtr:  (directory #p"~/*")
2015-08-22T14:13:39Z knobo: Is the file there, then?
2015-08-22T14:14:54Z knobo: If yes, then inspect the element in the list that is your file.
2015-08-22T14:15:14Z knobo: and paste it in paste.lisp.org
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2015-08-22T14:21:01Z dxtr: knobo: What do you mean inspect?
2015-08-22T14:21:20Z dxtr: with inspect*
2015-08-22T14:22:48Z dxtr: Also, I suddenly can't compile (with buildapp) or run https://github.com/dxtr/pass with ccl :P It hangs "While executing: CCL::%PROCESS-WAIT-ON-SEMAPHORE-PTR, in process toplevel(2)."
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2015-08-22T14:31:35Z shka: dxtr: looks like deadlock
2015-08-22T14:31:49Z knobo: dxtr: do you use slime?
2015-08-22T14:32:01Z dxtr: knobo: Yeah I do
2015-08-22T14:32:06Z dxtr: Is that the issue?
2015-08-22T14:32:26Z knobo: C-c S-i *
2015-08-22T14:32:52Z knobo: to inspect the list that (directory #p"~/*") returns, in the repl.
2015-08-22T14:33:10Z dxtr: Oh right :P
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2015-08-22T14:36:15Z knobo: dxtr: did it work?
2015-08-22T14:38:03Z dxtr: 107: #P"/Users/dxtr/newcert.p12"
2015-08-22T14:38:08Z dxtr: I'd say so
2015-08-22T14:38:20Z knobo:  (directory #p"~/.*")
2015-08-22T14:38:29Z knobo: maybe
2015-08-22T14:39:00Z dxtr: Oh, right. Sorry :p
2015-08-22T14:39:53Z dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154056
2015-08-22T14:41:40Z dxtr: shka: Yeah, I think that's kind of strange considering I'm not using any threads
2015-08-22T14:43:37Z knobo: dxtr: (loop for file in (directory #p"~/.*")   when (uiop/filesystem:file-exists-p  file)   collect file)
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2015-08-22T14:45:07Z knobo: I'm looking at your first paste. you did  (uiop:file-exists-p "/Users/dxtr/.zhistory") what happens if you add the #p  like this: (uiop:file-exists-p #p"/Users/dxtr/.zhistory")
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2015-08-22T14:46:34Z dxtr: knobo: No difference
2015-08-22T14:46:51Z knobo: And what is the result of the (loop for file ...?
2015-08-22T14:46:55Z knobo: Is the file there?
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2015-08-22T14:47:42Z dxtr: No it isn't
2015-08-22T14:47:52Z dxtr: It did not find a awful lot of dotfiles :p
2015-08-22T14:48:28Z dxtr: I got a total of eight results, including one directory that doesn't start with a dot
2015-08-22T14:48:46Z knobo: The issue is that the pathname is Type: "zhistory"
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2015-08-22T14:49:14Z dxtr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154057
2015-08-22T14:49:47Z knobo: and  (make-pathname :directory "/Users/dxtr/" :name ".zhistory") did not help....
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2015-08-22T14:49:58Z dxtr: Nope
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2015-08-22T14:55:59Z knobo:  (make-pathname :directory "/Users/dxtr/" :name ".zhistory" :type "") ?
2015-08-22T14:56:40Z dxtr: Nope.
2015-08-22T14:56:45Z dxtr: Still returns nil :p
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2015-08-22T15:02:23Z knobo: It's good to get reminded from time to time that other (operating)systems sucks too.
2015-08-22T15:02:34Z dxtr: Haha :D
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2015-08-22T15:04:38Z dxtr: you don't happen to have a clue why ccl seems to deadlock?
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2015-08-22T15:17:11Z knobo: no. I don't know anything about ccl
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2015-08-22T15:40:50Z shka: dxtr: i'm afraid that this is not exactly related to the ccl
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2015-08-22T16:05:59Z jfe: is it possible to change what arguments are passed to a function in a given stack frame like it is in GDB?
2015-08-22T16:06:09Z jfe: using slime, i mean.
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2015-08-22T16:06:39Z jfe: or is debugger action strictly limited to inspecting the values of variables?
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2015-08-22T16:13:22Z Shinmera-: What you see on the stack has already happened. How would you "change" it except for inventing a time machine?
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2015-08-22T16:14:01Z Shinmera: You can however evaluate things at the point in the stack where the debugger was invoked by typing 'e'.
2015-08-22T16:14:31Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how changing local lexical variables can be done though.
2015-08-22T16:15:07Z p_l: editing them in place, and continuing, but stack arguments require restarting from that stack frame the call
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2015-08-22T16:18:40Z jfe: hmm. and it doesn’t seem like i’m always able to continue. my only options are “retry” or “abort".
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2015-08-22T16:19:58Z Shinmera: Whether you can continue or not is dependant on whether there's a continue restart to do so. And whether one exists depends on whoever wrote the error throwing code. Simply continuing is not always a desired ability to leave to the user.
2015-08-22T16:20:39Z jfe: Shinmera: ah, gotcha. i’m learning CL by reading PG’s ANSI Common Lisp but haven’t yet made it to that section.
2015-08-22T16:20:49Z liu: i want to study lisp what should i do
2015-08-22T16:21:03Z Shinmera: liu: Just do it.
2015-08-22T16:21:40Z Shinmera: jfe: There was a recent article series about debugging in CL, which is very informative about this kind of stuff: http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/
2015-08-22T16:22:09Z jfe: Shinmera: awesome, thank you.
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2015-08-22T16:44:19Z jfe: Shinmera: this is exactly what i wanted. thanks again.
2015-08-22T16:44:29Z Shinmera: Sure thing.
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2015-08-22T17:00:54Z dxtr: shka: Why could that be, then?
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2015-08-22T17:04:18Z shka: dxtr: this looks like a problem with your own program
2015-08-22T17:09:59Z AeroNotix: What's the job market really like for Common Lisp?
2015-08-22T17:10:05Z AeroNotix: EU focused
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2015-08-22T17:20:08Z shka: AeroNotix: tiny and focused around experts
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2015-08-22T17:20:43Z AeroNotix: shka: what do you mean by "focused around experts"?
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2015-08-22T17:22:02Z shka: that is: existing offers seems to be perfect for specialists in certain areas
2015-08-22T17:22:40Z shka: for people that you would conside to be senior developers or architects in corpo-world
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2015-08-22T17:24:44Z shka: well, raven pack had some offers for web developers
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2015-08-22T17:28:00Z dxtr: shka: I don't quite see what could be causing it, though :P
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2015-08-22T17:30:19Z shka: dxtr: well, perhaps presenting some source code would help
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2015-08-22T17:31:09Z dxtr: shka: I did
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2015-08-22T17:31:37Z dxtr: https://github.com/dxtr/pass
2015-08-22T17:33:15Z shka: dxtr: pardon me, i was not online
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2015-08-22T17:34:36Z shka: this will be tricky
2015-08-22T17:35:02Z shka: dxtr: is this a problem just in ccl?
2015-08-22T17:35:10Z shka: or you also getting it with sbcl?
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2015-08-22T17:42:03Z Lokathor: hitecnologys, you aorund?
2015-08-22T17:44:12Z knobo: I'm not able to build ccl on linux
2015-08-22T17:44:29Z dxtr: shka: Hold on
2015-08-22T17:44:59Z knobo: Makefile:44: recipe for target 'x86-spentry64.o' failed
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2015-08-22T17:46:42Z dxtr: shka: Yeah, it seems it occurs in sbcl too
2015-08-22T17:46:45Z dxtr: Oh, hold on a minute
2015-08-22T17:46:58Z dxtr: (defun getenv ()) seems to be the issue
2015-08-22T17:47:17Z dxtr: Yep, that's totally it
2015-08-22T17:47:21Z dxtr: Haha
2015-08-22T17:47:30Z dxtr: I'm a moron :p
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2015-08-22T17:49:45Z dxtr: shka: I apologize for the horrible state of the code. It's my first project in lisp :p
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2015-08-22T18:15:27Z sigjuice: Can someone point me at some code that uses anaphora:slet ?
2015-08-22T18:15:49Z sigjuice: I am just curious.  All my grepping inside my quicklisp directory has turned up nothing.
2015-08-22T18:16:48Z pjb: AeroNotix: about one or two offers a year, and it's really EU, since there's about 1 lisp company per country.  check http://lispjobs.wordpress.com
2015-08-22T18:17:21Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: not for long, but yes.
2015-08-22T18:17:39Z pjb: AeroNotix: you stand better chances of landing a lisp jobs by doing like dim, writing a lisp application or tool and selling it yourself.
2015-08-22T18:18:01Z Lokathor: yesterday i wasn't sure which of my two messages you got, i had a bit of trouble leaving a memo with minion
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2015-08-22T18:18:25Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: well, I got the one about cursor.
2015-08-22T18:18:26Z Lokathor: i was wondering if it was safe to mix the high-level layer and the low-level bindings
2015-08-22T18:18:53Z Lokathor: i know there's no cursor visibility control in the high level section, but the low level appears to have set_curs
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2015-08-22T18:20:04Z hitecnologys: Well, technically, you can, but I advice wrapping low level code in high-level one instead and submitting a patch to include cursor visibility control in WITH-CURSES.
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2015-08-22T18:20:18Z hitecnologys: Also, did you get the message about cl-tui?
2015-08-22T18:20:36Z Lokathor: yeah you mentioned that
2015-08-22T18:21:11Z Lokathor: in what way is tui better or worse than charms?
2015-08-22T18:21:25Z hitecnologys: It's neither.
2015-08-22T18:21:31Z Lokathor: could i just use all of the low level code in charms to build up my own abstraction layer?
2015-08-22T18:22:03Z hitecnologys: It's higher-level wrapper on top of cl-charms that provides you with primitives to build text user interfaces.
2015-08-22T18:22:09Z Lokathor: i honestly just want direct curses control, i've used it before and i'm comfortable with that, but people said that cl-curses was old and out of date
2015-08-22T18:22:39Z hitecnologys: Yes, you can. If you have reasons, you certainly should.
2015-08-22T18:22:54Z hitecnologys: cl-charms isn't old, it's just that I'm lazy. =P
2015-08-22T18:23:05Z Lokathor: no cl-curses is what i was told is old
2015-08-22T18:23:12Z Lokathor: and that cl-charms was somehow "better"
2015-08-22T18:23:16Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2015-08-22T18:23:19Z Lokathor: like 3 people said that all at the same time :3
2015-08-22T18:23:27Z hitecnologys: cl-curses hasn't been maintained for like... a lot.
2015-08-22T18:23:50Z hitecnologys: cl-charms is currently the only bindings I'm aware of that are still maintained.
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2015-08-22T18:24:23Z hitecnologys: Robert has been helping a lot since I barely have time to put into it to make it better.
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2015-08-22T18:25:31Z Lokathor: cool
2015-08-22T18:26:03Z Lokathor: well i'll give it a mild run around the block and mention any problems that crop up
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2015-08-22T18:26:29Z hitecnologys: That would be great. Feedback is always appreciated.
2015-08-22T18:26:30Z Lokathor: the high level stuff seemed mostly fine, other than the lack of cursor visibility control, and what seemed to be a lack of color control
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2015-08-22T18:26:45Z hitecnologys: Yeah, that's missing too.
2015-08-22T18:27:01Z hitecnologys: You should probably file a feature suggestion in the bug tracker thing.
2015-08-22T18:27:12Z hitecnologys: This way I won't forget about it.
2015-08-22T18:27:15Z Lokathor: can do
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2015-08-22T18:29:27Z Lokathor: done
2015-08-22T18:29:56Z hitecnologys: Thanks.
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2015-08-22T18:34:56Z jackdaniel: good evening
2015-08-22T18:35:13Z Lokathor: bonan vesperon
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2015-08-22T18:57:52Z dxtr: knobo: On second though that didn't quite solve my issue it seems
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2015-08-22T20:05:08Z DalekBaldwin: I'm having trouble with my code when loading it in clisp. (it works fine in every other implementation.) I have a macro that expands into a defvar, and somehow the resulting variable is always unbound when system is loaded: https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/macrodynamics/blob/dev/src/macrodynamics.lisp#L31-L36
2015-08-22T20:05:20Z DalekBaldwin: but if I evaluate the macro form in-place with slime, it works fine
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2015-08-22T20:11:19Z gabriel_laddel: Is there some way to specify the precision to which I'd like to compute a fraction?
2015-08-22T20:11:37Z gabriel_laddel: I've looked through CLtL2, nothing jumps out at me.
2015-08-22T20:12:28Z gabriel_laddel: fomat's ~F doesn't work with ratios :/
2015-08-22T20:12:36Z Adlai: gabriel_laddel: floor, truncate, etc all take a second argument
2015-08-22T20:17:23Z gabriel_laddel: Adlai: I'm not seeing how this would allow me to compute e.g., 1/3 out to 100 digits of .33...
2015-08-22T20:19:16Z pjb: (format nil "~,10F" 1/3) #| --> "0.3333333400" |#
2015-08-22T20:19:26Z pjb: works well enough.
2015-08-22T20:20:00Z gabriel_laddel: pjb:
2015-08-22T20:20:10Z gabriel_laddel: (format nil "~,100F" 1/3)
2015-08-22T20:20:19Z gabriel_laddel: gives the same result, with many zeros on the end
2015-08-22T20:20:19Z pjb: You'd get the same with 90 more 0s.
2015-08-22T20:20:29Z pjb: What you want has nothing to do with format.
2015-08-22T20:20:48Z gabriel_laddel: right - I'd like to specify the precision to which my fraction will be computed
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2015-08-22T20:21:45Z pjb: You need to compute it yourself. Indeed, there's no CL function to give the decimal expansion of a rational.
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2015-08-22T20:22:03Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: ah, k
2015-08-22T20:22:35Z gabriel_laddel: I thought this was included under "arbitrary precision arithmetic"
2015-08-22T20:22:37Z gabriel_laddel: but nvm
2015-08-22T20:22:50Z pjb: That's only for rationals and integers, not for floating point numbers.
2015-08-22T20:23:00Z Adlai: gabriel_laddel: it's a bit hairy, but (floor 1/3 (expt 10 -100)) is a start
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2015-08-22T20:23:18Z pjb: Now, in clisp you could use long-float with a length sufficient for (coerce 1/3 'long-float) to have the required precision.
2015-08-22T20:23:41Z Adlai: (you still need to put the decimal point in the right place when you're printing it)
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2015-08-22T20:24:27Z pjb: #+clisp (setf (ext:long-float-digits) 10000) #+clisp (format nil "~,100F" (coerce 1/3 'long-float)) --> "0.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333"
2015-08-22T20:24:37Z gabriel_laddel: oh hey
2015-08-22T20:24:44Z gabriel_laddel: so sbcl has nothing like this?
2015-08-22T20:24:48Z pjb: Nope.
2015-08-22T20:24:51Z gabriel_laddel: Adlai: ty
2015-08-22T20:24:58Z pjb: SBCL is "fast".
2015-08-22T20:24:58Z pjb: As if that was useful.
2015-08-22T20:25:09Z Shinmera: It's pretty useful.
2015-08-22T20:26:16Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: and here I was thinking "I'll never use anything other than SBCL"
2015-08-22T20:26:23Z gabriel_laddel: absurdity
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2015-08-22T20:34:27Z AeroNotix: is there a way I can dynamically set a field of an object?
2015-08-22T20:34:40Z gabriel_laddel: AeroNotix: a slot?
2015-08-22T20:34:47Z AeroNotix: gabriel_laddel: slot, sorry, yes.
2015-08-22T20:34:58Z gabriel_laddel: AeroNotix: pretty easy with a macro
2015-08-22T20:35:07Z AeroNotix: gabriel_laddel: any pointers?
2015-08-22T20:35:17Z Shinmera: What does "dynamically" mean here?
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2015-08-22T20:35:21Z gabriel_laddel: well, you're trying to (setf (some-dynamic-thing) some-value) right?
2015-08-22T20:35:33Z AeroNotix: gabriel_laddel: yeah
2015-08-22T20:35:39Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: the name of the slot is determined at runtime
2015-08-22T20:35:46Z Shinmera: clhs slot-value
2015-08-22T20:35:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
2015-08-22T20:36:06Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: thanks!
2015-08-22T20:36:13Z gabriel_laddel: AeroNotix: so write a macro that computes (some-dynamic-thing) as (slot-value obj 'dynamic-sym)
2015-08-22T20:36:25Z Shinmera: gabriel_laddel: why a macro at all?
2015-08-22T20:36:32Z AeroNotix: slot-name seems to be the right thing
2015-08-22T20:37:05Z gabriel_laddel: Shinmera: becuase he wants the slot name to be dynamic
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2015-08-22T20:37:57Z Shinmera: I don't understand. Why doesn't (setf (slot-value obj field) val) work? No need to write a macro whatsoever.
2015-08-22T20:38:05Z AeroNotix: trying this
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2015-08-22T20:39:11Z gabriel_laddel: Shinmera, AeroNotix nvm, no macro needed
2015-08-22T20:39:17Z AeroNotix: ok
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2015-08-22T20:39:29Z gabriel_laddel: Shinmera: ty
2015-08-22T20:39:49Z AeroNotix: thanks all
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2015-08-22T20:56:31Z Lokathor: question: the PCL example packages have names like :com.gigamonkeys.spam but cl-charms has a package name like #:cl-charms
2015-08-22T20:56:47Z Lokathor: what is that # significant in some way, or is it a naming convention?
2015-08-22T20:57:11Z Lokathor: could i safely name my cl-charms wrapper, for example, :lokathor.charming or something
2015-08-22T20:59:18Z Oladon: Lokathor: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8050144/common-lisp-package-definition <-- good explanation
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2015-08-22T21:00:07Z Lokathor: ah
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2015-08-22T21:00:21Z Lokathor: suppose i'll use #:
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2015-08-22T21:00:31Z Lokathor: it's weird that lisp-mode in emacs doesn't highlight the # part
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2015-08-22T21:01:33Z pjb: clhs #:
2015-08-22T21:01:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
2015-08-22T21:02:12Z pjb: Lokathor: how can you read or write lisp programs if you haven't even read the lexical definitions of the language? You must be crazy doing that.
2015-08-22T21:02:28Z pjb: Who would try to learn and write Russian without firs learning the Cyrillic alphabet?
2015-08-22T21:02:59Z pjb: insane asylum this way --> #asylum
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2015-08-22T21:03:26Z Lokathor: I've read PCL chapters 1-22, but don't recall #: ever being discussed in a major way compared to : when it comes to naming a package
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2015-08-22T21:03:34Z pjb: PCL is not a reference.
2015-08-22T21:04:08Z pjb: It's to give a tast of the language.  When you decide to use a programming language, the first thing you do is to download the standard and learn it by heart.
2015-08-22T21:04:34Z AeroNotix: pjb: might be a bit hard for a lot of languages which aren't standardized.
2015-08-22T21:04:43Z pjb: The Pascal Report, the ANSI C standard, the R5RS, the ANSI Common Lisp standard (hyperspec).
2015-08-22T21:04:59Z Lokathor: i assert that your version of things is just as insane to me as my version of things is to you
2015-08-22T21:05:01Z pjb: AeroNotix: just say no to those.  Notice, ECMAscript and Ruby are standardized.
2015-08-22T21:05:13Z pjb: Lokathor: I can accept that :-)
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2015-08-22T21:05:59Z AeroNotix: pjb: not really a sign of quality
2015-08-22T21:06:18Z pjb: A sign of freedom.
2015-08-22T21:06:19Z Lokathor: i understand the fundamental way lisp works: (funname arg1 arg2 ... argn), then the thing evals the funname, and if it's not a special form it evals all the args, then does the call
2015-08-22T21:06:24Z Lokathor: that's gotten me working enough programs so far
2015-08-22T21:06:45Z pjb: Lokathor: You can argue that, and I agree, there's too much syntax to Common Lisp.
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2015-08-22T21:07:05Z Oladon: pjb: So when you want to learn a human language, do you download a dictionary and grammar and start memorizing?
2015-08-22T21:07:06Z AeroNotix: Lokathor: from discussions in this channel, I seem to recall that it does have an affect.
2015-08-22T21:07:10Z pjb: Personnaly, I use strings to designate packages, not symbols.
2015-08-22T21:07:21Z pjb: Oladon: basically, that's how I learn better.
2015-08-22T21:07:26Z Lokathor: pjb, oh my major complaint with common lisp is not related to excessive syntax
2015-08-22T21:07:38Z Oladon boggles
2015-08-22T21:07:49Z pjb: It's too maleable for me to complain really about anything.
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2015-08-22T21:08:54Z Lokathor: i find symbol-function and symbol-value being different to be unsettling
2015-08-22T21:09:02Z Lokathor: other than that most of common lisp seems fine
2015-08-22T21:09:20Z pjb: If not already read, please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2015-08-22T21:11:06Z Lokathor: that is way too much text right now for a thing that's not gonna change either way
2015-08-22T21:11:31Z Lokathor: but i'll give it a bookmark just for you
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2015-08-22T21:44:38Z Lokathor: quicklisp seems to have cl-charms but not cl-charms/low-level
2015-08-22T21:44:40Z Lokathor: sad days
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2015-08-22T21:54:39Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-22T21:54:42Z Lokathor: some functions are exported
2015-08-22T21:54:44Z Lokathor: and some are not
2015-08-22T21:54:51Z Lokathor: but they're all defined with the same macro so i totally don't get it
2015-08-22T21:55:14Z Oladon: Lokathor: probably just a question of what the authors thought you'd need?
2015-08-22T21:55:47Z Lokathor: well the macro claims that it defines and exports a function at the same time
2015-08-22T21:55:53Z Oladon: ah
2015-08-22T21:56:02Z Lokathor: and it's used to define the functions that are available, and also ones that are apparently not available
2015-08-22T21:56:03Z Oladon: does it? :)
2015-08-22T21:56:24Z Lokathor: i dunno, https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/low-level/curses-bindings.lisp#L73
2015-08-22T21:56:34Z Lokathor: it looks like it does, but i've been doing this only a week
2015-08-22T21:56:38Z AeroNotix: cc hitecnologys
2015-08-22T21:56:57Z Lokathor: yeah it seems like i'm 12 hours offset from hitech, which is unfortunate for me
2015-08-22T21:57:57Z Oladon: It does appear to export them... can you find one that isn't being exported and trace its definition through their code?
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2015-08-22T21:58:31Z Lokathor: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/low-level/curses-bindings.lisp#L1274 is the one that i want that isn't available
2015-08-22T21:58:53Z Lokathor: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/low-level/curses-bindings.lisp#L1062 is defined with the same macro, and it is available
2015-08-22T22:00:14Z Oladon: Lokathor: That "visibility :int" sure looks suspicious, doncha think?
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2015-08-22T22:00:54Z Oladon: oh, nm
2015-08-22T22:00:58Z Oladon: that's cursor visibility :P
2015-08-22T22:00:59Z Oladon: heh
2015-08-22T22:01:07Z Lokathor: yes :3
2015-08-22T22:01:46Z Lokathor: i think the :int is the return type
2015-08-22T22:01:51Z Lokathor: based on the macro's definition
2015-08-22T22:02:26Z Oladon: yeah
2015-08-22T22:02:30Z Lokathor: well, i'll give up for now
2015-08-22T22:02:34Z Lokathor: there's other things to program
2015-08-22T22:02:38Z Oladon: Lokathor: What makes you say it's not available?
2015-08-22T22:02:43Z Oladon: What have you tried?
2015-08-22T22:03:08Z Lokathor: i tried loading the module into sbcl and using symbol-function
2015-08-22T22:03:48Z Lokathor: (symbol-function 'charms/ll:initscr) works, (symbol-function 'charms/ll:curs_set) does not.
2015-08-22T22:04:31Z Oladon: Lokathor: Look at line 80 in the macro code
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2015-08-22T22:05:10Z Oladon: Lokathor: My bet is that it's translating "curs_set" into something slightly different... say, "curs-set" or somesuch
2015-08-22T22:05:16Z Lokathor: ahhhh
2015-08-22T22:06:33Z Lokathor: well, now it works
2015-08-22T22:06:34Z Lokathor: and i feel silly
2015-08-22T22:08:03Z Oladon: :)
2015-08-22T22:08:44Z Lokathor: is there a concise command to list off every symbol in a package?
2015-08-22T22:08:50Z Lokathor: perhaps that would save me in the future
2015-08-22T22:09:20Z Oladon: You might find apropos to be a bit easier than listing /every/ symbol
2015-08-22T22:09:23Z Oladon: clhs apropos
2015-08-22T22:09:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apropo.htm
2015-08-22T22:11:20Z Lokathor: well, that doesn't seem to work
2015-08-22T22:11:36Z Lokathor: (apropos-list "charms") just returns (:cl-charms)
2015-08-22T22:12:02Z Lokathor: oh right, because the cl-charms package exports everything without interning it
2015-08-22T22:12:16Z Oladon: No no no
2015-08-22T22:12:31Z Oladon: (apropos-list "charms") is looking for a symbol with the substring "charms"
2015-08-22T22:12:36Z Oladon: It's correctly returning the only one it finds.
2015-08-22T22:13:04Z Lokathor: well, i want a thing where i give it a package name, and it gives me all the symbols that are either values or functions out of that package
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2015-08-22T22:13:13Z Oladon: Lokathor: look at the arguments to apropos-list again
2015-08-22T22:14:41Z Lokathor: i'm having a hard time reading most of this shorthand
2015-08-22T22:15:09Z Oladon: Just look at the syntax; fourth line of the page
2015-08-22T22:15:23Z Lokathor: apropos-list string &optional package => symbols ?
2015-08-22T22:15:26Z Oladon: yes
2015-08-22T22:15:47Z Oladon: It takes a string argument and an optional package argument
2015-08-22T22:15:57Z Oladon: and it returns a list of symbols
2015-08-22T22:16:00Z Lokathor: well i tried that too, (apropos-list :charms) and (apropos-list "charms") both give the same thing
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2015-08-22T22:16:25Z Oladon: Lokathor: Those are both giving it a single (first) argument
2015-08-22T22:16:45Z Oladon: (fn a b) <-- you can't call (fn 3) and expect b to be 3, right?
2015-08-22T22:17:18Z Lokathor: ohhhh
2015-08-22T22:17:20Z Oladon: :)
2015-08-22T22:17:30Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-22T22:17:41Z Lokathor: (apropos-list "" :charms) seems to be too much
2015-08-22T22:17:48Z Oladon: :P
2015-08-22T22:17:56Z Oladon: Try (apropos-list "curs" :charms)
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2015-08-22T22:18:19Z Lokathor: well that does limit it
2015-08-22T22:18:39Z Lokathor: the problem is that it's listing :cl functions in addition to :charms functions because :charms uses :cl
2015-08-22T22:18:52Z Lokathor: how might i see only what :charms itself exported without seeing what it imported?
2015-08-22T22:19:01Z Lokathor: probably need some special loop?
2015-08-22T22:21:38Z Oladon: Lokathor: You could use repl-utilities:exs
2015-08-22T22:22:36Z Oladon: Lokathor: You could also write your own with do-external-symbols
2015-08-22T22:23:08Z Lokathor: cool
2015-08-22T22:23:13Z Lokathor: repl-utilities:exs is just what i wanted
2015-08-22T22:24:43Z Lokathor: now all that's left is to wonder why sbcl starts sooooo slow on ARM
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2015-08-23T00:07:14Z aeth: If my code uses cdddar, is it generally preferable style to instead use a let* to assign some meaning to the code so it's more readable even though that will make the code smaller?
2015-08-23T00:07:42Z aeth: Because I've never had to use caddar/cdddar before but this tree just goes that deep
2015-08-23T00:08:02Z aeth: s/smaller/slower/
2015-08-23T00:08:06Z aeth: or longer, idk what I was trying to say
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2015-08-23T00:08:47Z White_Flame: comments attach meaning to code, not let* blocks...
2015-08-23T00:09:34Z AeroNotix: White_Flame: not really
2015-08-23T00:09:39Z White_Flame: when in doubt about performance and generated code size, #'disassemble is your friend
2015-08-23T00:09:46Z AeroNotix: White_Flame: you want to make the code as clear as possible without comments
2015-08-23T00:09:51Z aeth: White_Flame: what I mean is that one way to make people understand what is going on here is to name the car and/or cadr
2015-08-23T00:09:57Z aeth: Then no comments are necessary
2015-08-23T00:09:58Z AeroNotix: I think aeth meant using a let block to assign names to values
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2015-08-23T00:10:40Z AeroNotix: aeth: don't worry about performance at all unless it's really necessary
2015-08-23T00:10:46Z AeroNotix: most pieces of code don't need to be optimized
2015-08-23T00:10:48Z aeth: there is no way anyone will understand what's going on here (maybe not even me) as it is with car, caar, cadar, caddar, cdddar, and cdr all used
2015-08-23T00:10:58Z |3b|: aeth: a named accessor might also be useful depending on the situation
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2015-08-23T00:11:34Z aeth: AeroNotix: Well I'm not sure performance is necessary here because I can't really do anything about the IO right before this, and that will eclipse anything I can do around it.
2015-08-23T00:11:50Z White_Flame: |3b|: but the accessor should be commented to, to describe the cons structure
2015-08-23T00:11:52Z aeth: What I'm doing is I'm putting an s-expression at the car of the file that tells the program what to do with the file
2015-08-23T00:11:57Z White_Flame: s/to/too/
2015-08-23T00:12:24Z |3b|: White_Flame: possibly, or possibly the structure should be documented on its own
2015-08-23T00:12:53Z White_Flame: ";; cadadadadar extracts the value from (command foo (param <value>)) in the input file"
2015-08-23T00:12:57Z White_Flame: sufficient
2015-08-23T00:13:07Z |3b|: but the structure might be an implementation detail, and documenting that is much less important than having a clear API
2015-08-23T00:13:14Z aeth: I *guess* I could if I wanted to make a function, and then use apply or something to the car if it's listp to make the intent clearer
2015-08-23T00:13:27Z aeth: Rather than reinventing how functions work
2015-08-23T00:14:12Z papachan: a noobs question. i just start huchentoot webserver in localhost
2015-08-23T00:14:23Z papachan: but i dont know how i can stop it
2015-08-23T00:14:30Z aeth: i.e. I could apply a caar to cdar rather than walking through the car
2015-08-23T00:14:40Z |3b|: papachan: call stop on whatever you called start on
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2015-08-23T00:15:27Z papachan: |3b| yeah i passed to stop the same value
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2015-08-23T00:16:18Z |3b|: papachan: so did that not work?
2015-08-23T00:16:43Z papachan: yep.
2015-08-23T00:16:52Z aeth: Would apply be cleaner than using case to disect custom s-expressions? I'm guessing it would be slightly slower up until a very large number (does case work in a singly linked list?), but it might be lispier and I wouldn't have cdddars or temporary let variables.
2015-08-23T00:17:19Z papachan: i am doing  (documentation hunchentoot:stop) to read som docs
2015-08-23T00:18:13Z |3b|: papachan: paste exactly what you did at http://paste.lisp.org/new/
2015-08-23T00:18:24Z papachan: sure
2015-08-23T00:18:29Z pjb: aeth: preferable to wrap your cdddar in a functional abstraction.
2015-08-23T00:18:39Z |3b| is guessing you didn't actually pass the exact same object, but hard to diagnose just from descriptions
2015-08-23T00:18:55Z pjb: aeth: (defun person-employer-name (x) (cdddar x))
2015-08-23T00:19:01Z |3b|: either that or running a single threaded lisp so didn't evaluate the STOP
2015-08-23T00:19:44Z |3b|: papachan: including repl prompts and responses in the paste would help diagnose the 2nd problem
2015-08-23T00:19:51Z papachan: |3b| http://paste.awesom.eu/papachan/9Pma
2015-08-23T00:19:57Z papachan: ah
2015-08-23T00:20:02Z papachan: didnt include the response
2015-08-23T00:20:03Z papachan: wait
2015-08-23T00:20:11Z |3b|: no need, it was the first problem
2015-08-23T00:20:25Z |3b|: you didn't pass 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor to START
2015-08-23T00:20:28Z pjb: aeth: read sicp it explains this in all details.
2015-08-23T00:20:34Z aeth: pjb: that's interesting, I never thought about doing something that way before. Previously, when I had complicated case/cond/etc. working through s-expressions as data, I would just use a let to assign meaning rather than a function
2015-08-23T00:20:42Z papachan: http://paste.awesom.eu/papachan/3ab2
2015-08-23T00:20:46Z |3b|: you passed that to MAKE-INSTANCE, and passed the value returned by MAKE-INSTANCE to START
2015-08-23T00:20:55Z aeth: pjb: I haven't read SICP, I watched most of the SICP videos... SICP is a very long book
2015-08-23T00:21:04Z axion: papachan: you should pass the same object to stop as with start
2015-08-23T00:21:08Z papachan: ok
2015-08-23T00:21:35Z pjb: aeth: since you have questions that are answered in that book, perhaps you could preemptively read it?
2015-08-23T00:22:22Z |3b|: papachan: i think START returns the value you passed to it, so you could do something like (defparameter *foo* (hunchentoot:start ...)) then later (hunchentoot:stop *foo*)
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2015-08-23T00:23:44Z papachan: ok i try to make a variable
2015-08-23T00:23:50Z aeth: pjb: on the one hand, yes, I probably should read through both PCL and SICP cover to cover (I've read most of PCL, though). On the other hand, there probably should be a more concise way for references on issues of Lisp style than two (or more) books.
2015-08-23T00:24:08Z |3b|: aeth: yeah, that's what i meant by "named accessor", it also has the advantage you can change the structure and only have to update the accessors
2015-08-23T00:24:43Z aeth: |3b|: ah, by accessor I assumed you meant CLOS. I am currently using CLOS in a few areas where CLOS seems to be overkill, mostly for the use of generics
2015-08-23T00:25:08Z pjb: aeth: it's not lisp style, it's basic programming notion. I had a course a the university where the same thing was explained using examples and projects written in pascal.
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2015-08-23T00:25:27Z |3b|: "accessor" just implies you can SETF it, doesn't have to be CLOS (though in this case you might not actually need the ability to write it)
2015-08-23T00:26:05Z pjb: aeth: I defined above a reader.  Defining the writer (defun (setf person-employer-name) (new-name person) (setf (cddddar person) new-name))  makes person-employer-name an accessor.
2015-08-23T00:26:19Z aeth: |3b|: Currently the only thing in my code that needs to (afaik) be writable is the sb-cga data structures fed into the shaders.
2015-08-23T00:26:24Z |3b| would say "use CLOS unless you have some specific reason not to"... it is no more "overkill" than the rest of CL is compared to other languages :)
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2015-08-23T00:28:15Z papachan: |3b| it works
2015-08-23T00:28:18Z papachan: thanks
2015-08-23T00:28:43Z |3b|: (well, within reason... i would still default to DEFUN for most things that would only have 1 method anyway, but don't avoid switching to DEFMETHOD when you see a place for the 2nd method)
2015-08-23T00:28:54Z aeth: |3b|: well usually I use closures over CLOS where I can get away with it (e.g. no need for generics or more than one accessor)
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2015-08-23T00:29:22Z |3b| thinks generics are the important part of CLOS, not the objects
2015-08-23T00:29:41Z pjb: Indeed, you use defgeneric/defmethod more often than defclass.
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2015-08-23T01:02:28Z DalekBaldwin: wow, this was the first time I've ever had to do (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute)) to make something work
2015-08-23T01:02:57Z DalekBaldwin: I'm a little uncomfortable because I don't fully understand why
2015-08-23T01:04:03Z Bicyclidine: i could probably explain if you paste the file or explain.
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2015-08-23T01:05:50Z DalekBaldwin: Bicyclidine: https://github.com/DalekBaldwin/macrodynamics/blob/dev/src/macrodynamics.lisp#L31-L36
2015-08-23T01:06:49Z DalekBaldwin: it's only clisp that was being pedantic about this.
2015-08-23T01:06:54Z Bicyclidine: my, that's pretty nasty
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2015-08-23T01:07:26Z Bicyclidine: did clisp give you an error or what?
2015-08-23T01:07:28Z DalekBaldwin: yeah I'm doing some black magic, but I finally have confirmation that it works
2015-08-23T01:07:54Z DalekBaldwin: it wouldn't error, but the defvar'ed symbol would be unbound after the system was loaded
2015-08-23T01:08:26Z Bicyclidine: probably just because the setf wouldn't happen
2015-08-23T01:08:35Z DalekBaldwin: the setf is unrelated
2015-08-23T01:09:05Z DalekBaldwin: I could still access the symbol, it just wouldn't be bound
2015-08-23T01:09:49Z axion: DalekBaldwin: likely if you put the code which uses this macro in a file that is loaded after this, it would work without eval-when
2015-08-23T01:10:08Z DalekBaldwin: at first I thought it might have something to do with the gensym'ed symbol being different at compile and load time, but it's only generated once by this macro. it's in the expanded code that it's being interpreted at different times
2015-08-23T01:10:25Z DalekBaldwin: axion: I tried that -- it's something you usually have to do to fix things in clisp -- but it made no difference here
2015-08-23T01:11:35Z Bicyclidine: yeah, this is pretty bizarre
2015-08-23T01:12:49Z DalekBaldwin: anyway now I've finally taken a trick I discovered a while ago and distilled it down into its purest form, and now I can write more complex DSLs without using a code walker
2015-08-23T01:13:10Z DalekBaldwin: I assure you it's quite beautiful, if I ever get around to explaining it
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2015-08-23T01:19:35Z aeth: Is this safe? i.e. read-eval is optional so no arbitrary #. in random files off of the internet, but you can use #. when you trust the file. http://paste.lisp.org/display/154101
2015-08-23T01:20:36Z aeth: I really, really, really don't want to have to reimplement read.
2015-08-23T01:24:25Z Bicyclidine: well, probably. depends on context i guess.
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2015-08-23T01:26:08Z aeth: What I'm doing is that I'm building a multi-stage transpiler from s-expressions into GLSL shaders (eventually, the GLSL backend will be able to be replaced with Vulkan). What this means is that the shader files are just .sxp files (i.e. s-expression files that are read in)
2015-08-23T01:27:34Z aeth: So if you trust the source of the file, you can enable read-eval and mix evaluation between CPU and GPU using reader evaluation, e.g. (:vec4 #.(+ 0.3 0.7) 0.0 0.05 1.0)
2015-08-23T01:28:00Z Bicyclidine: yeah, that's probably fine.
2015-08-23T01:30:59Z Bicyclidine: usually when you worry about #. it's for something that doesn't evolve evaluation at all, like a json-like
2015-08-23T01:31:08Z aeth: (The lowest level of this is essentially just GLSL expressions and statements in s-expression form, in this case (:vec4 0.3 0.0 0.05 1.0) trivially becomes "vec4(0.3, 0.0, 0.05, 1.0)")
2015-08-23T01:31:20Z aeth: (Anything non-trivial will compile between s-expressions.)
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2015-08-23T01:34:27Z aeth: It looks like emacs recognizes :define-foo and indents it properly, which is great.
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2015-08-23T03:24:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-23T03:24:40Z papachan: good morning
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2015-08-23T03:36:01Z pedro_: good morning!
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2015-08-23T04:13:46Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-08-23T04:45:41Z theos: hey
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2015-08-23T04:50:12Z beach: jackdaniel: Proofread version sent by email.
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2015-08-23T05:09:31Z beach: [*sigh*] Knoop, Rüthing, and Steffen are doing very good work on compiler optimizations, but their papers are unfortunately very hard to understand.
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2015-08-23T05:11:33Z beach: It is as if they don't *really* want people to apply their techniques in real compilers.
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2015-08-23T05:24:42Z Lokathor: so
2015-08-23T05:24:51Z Lokathor: if a function should accept one of three values
2015-08-23T05:25:09Z Lokathor: what's the ideomatic way to set that up in common lisp
2015-08-23T05:25:20Z Lokathor: idiomatic*
2015-08-23T05:25:33Z Oladon: Lokathor: depends on the details a bit
2015-08-23T05:25:48Z |3b|: (defun foo (x) ...), possibly with something inside it that will error if it gets some other value
2015-08-23T05:25:52Z Oladon: Is the value passed going to determine what the function does?
2015-08-23T05:25:58Z H4ns: Lokathor: you can use check-type to validate the argument
2015-08-23T05:26:09Z |3b|: for example ECASE or (check-type x (member :a :b :c))
2015-08-23T05:26:20Z Lokathor: it will. in this case, one of three ints should be given, 0 (invisible), 1 (normal), 2 (very visible)
2015-08-23T05:26:31Z Oladon: oh
2015-08-23T05:26:56Z Oladon: Then yeah, just do a single argument and check it in the body
2015-08-23T05:26:57Z Lokathor: but it could also be like, keyword args, or should i define some constants, or what
2015-08-23T05:27:01Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-23T05:27:06Z Oladon: not keyword args or constants
2015-08-23T05:27:06Z H4ns: Lokathor: (check-type x (member a b c))
2015-08-23T05:27:07Z |3b| would use :invisible :normal :very-visible rather than 0,1,2 and translate to/from numbers internally if something else needs numeric values
2015-08-23T05:27:17Z Oladon: You /could/ use generics/methods
2015-08-23T05:27:20Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-23T05:27:38Z Oladon: Yeah, I probably would do what |3b| just said as well
2015-08-23T05:28:26Z Lokathor: so i know how to make it so you call (foo :a 1)
2015-08-23T05:28:34Z |3b|: if it is usually "normal" as implied by the name, maybe a keyword arg like :visibility :none that defaults to :normal
2015-08-23T05:28:34Z Lokathor: but can you make it so you call (foo :a)
2015-08-23T05:28:50Z Oladon: Lokathor: :a is just a keyword
2015-08-23T05:28:50Z H4ns: Lokathor: what do you need the 1 for?
2015-08-23T05:28:59Z |3b|: (defun foo (x) ...) accepts :a
2015-08-23T05:29:05Z Oladon: yeah
2015-08-23T05:29:09Z Lokathor: H4ns, it's passed down to C, which expects 0, 1, or 2
2015-08-23T05:29:18Z |3b|: (defun foo (x) (ecase x (:a ..) (:b ..) (:c ..)))
2015-08-23T05:29:31Z Oladon nods
2015-08-23T05:29:33Z Lokathor: ahhh, okay
2015-08-23T05:29:34Z |3b|: (ecase x (:a (pass-0-to-c...)) ...)
2015-08-23T05:29:42Z H4ns: Lokathor: why do you need to _check_ the argument to be one of the three possible values?
2015-08-23T05:29:52Z |3b|: or better, just define a c enum type in CFFI
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2015-08-23T05:30:01Z |3b|: and let it translate to/from keywords for you
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2015-08-23T05:30:22Z H4ns: or define constants if you're making these calls very often
2015-08-23T05:30:25Z Lokathor: H4ns, i'd prefer that if a thing were going to break, that it break on the lisp side rather than the C side
2015-08-23T05:30:37Z |3b|: (optionally using the compile-time translators if you call that millions of times per second)
2015-08-23T05:30:45Z Lokathor: so checking that a valid paramater is passed seems sensible
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2015-08-23T05:31:05Z Lokathor: |3b|, it's called almost never in fact. usually just at program start and program end
2015-08-23T05:31:13Z H4ns: Lokathor: i'd use keywords on the lisp side and translate to integers right before calling the c function
2015-08-23T05:31:22Z |3b|: (cffi:defcenum visibility (:none 0) :normal :very) or something and (defcfun foo :whatever (visibility visibility))
2015-08-23T05:31:58Z |3b|: then CFFI will translate to/from keywords for you, and error if it gets unexpected values (in either direction, which may or may not be what you want, but you can customize that a bit if not)
2015-08-23T05:32:12Z |3b| didn't actually look up syntax, so that probably isn't exactly right
2015-08-23T05:32:30Z Lokathor: i'm making my own wrappers around an existing CFFI wrapper :3
2015-08-23T05:32:44Z Lokathor: the particular parts i want are not yet wrapped at the "high level" part of the package
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2015-08-23T05:33:48Z |3b|: if you have existing FFI you can't change, then ecase isn't too bad
2015-08-23T05:34:13Z |3b|: (just may need to duplicate it or put it in a function and call that by hand in various places)
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2015-08-23T05:35:48Z lpaste_: Lokathor pasted “What I ended up with.” at http://lpaste.net/139478
2015-08-23T05:36:54Z |3b|: you might also consider whether you would rather have (hide-cursor), (show-cursor), (emphasize-cursor) or something instead
2015-08-23T05:37:56Z pjb: Lokathor: there are also style guides that say that you should not use such parameters to select different behaviors of the function, but instead provide three different functions (foo-invisibly …) (foo-normal …) (foo-visible …).
2015-08-23T05:38:13Z Lokathor: hmmm
2015-08-23T05:38:34Z White_Flame: pjb: a bit harder to serialize configuration of those options, though
2015-08-23T05:38:55Z |3b|: or (setf (cursor-visibility) :visible), though not sure that is an improvement (or if you can query it from the C api to implement plain (cursor-visibility))
2015-08-23T05:38:59Z pjb: Lokathor: using CLOS, you can instead define three methods: (defmethod foo ((visibility (eql :invisible)) …) …) (defmethod foo ((visibility (eql :normal)) …) …) …
2015-08-23T05:39:25Z pjb: So you avoid the ecase/if in your code, but still have it as a parameter (foo :invisible …) (foo :normal …)
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2015-08-23T05:42:11Z Lokathor: well
2015-08-23T05:42:26Z Lokathor: i don't think it makes sense to have it as a method
2015-08-23T05:43:03Z |3b| thinks it makes approximately as much sense as ECASE
2015-08-23T05:43:15Z Lokathor: At the C level, curs_set is one of the few functions that isn't called on a WINDOW*
2015-08-23T05:43:18Z Lokathor: it's essentially a global value
2015-08-23T05:43:31Z Lokathor: so it wouldn't make sense to attatch to a particular instance of an object
2015-08-23T05:43:38Z |3b|: sure, CLOS methods don't have anything to do with 'objects' though
2015-08-23T05:43:55Z |3b|: they are about functions
2015-08-23T05:44:05Z Lokathor: aren't they functions that dispatch on object type?
2015-08-23T05:44:10Z Lokathor: or.. something?
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2015-08-23T05:44:17Z Oladon: or object value, as above
2015-08-23T05:44:19Z White_Flame: they dispatch on parameters, not on any particular object
2015-08-23T05:44:23Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-23T05:44:26Z Oladon: parameter value*
2015-08-23T05:44:32Z |3b|: class, not type
2015-08-23T05:44:44Z Lokathor: "class not type"?
2015-08-23T05:44:47Z |3b|: or multiple classes, or values
2015-08-23T05:44:53Z Oladon: Lokathor: class != type
2015-08-23T05:44:58Z |3b|: right, (integer 1 2) is a type, but not a class
2015-08-23T05:45:12Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-23T05:45:22Z Lokathor: this is some use of "type" and "class" i was not previously aware of
2015-08-23T05:46:10Z |3b|: it would be hard to distinguish between for example the types (integer 0 10) and (integer 5 15) if given the value 8
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2015-08-23T05:46:37Z |3b|: since 8 is in both of those ranges, and neither is "more specific" in any meaningful way
2015-08-23T05:46:37Z Lokathor: my cl goes into debug when i try to call (integer 1 2)
2015-08-23T05:46:41Z Lokathor: so i'm not clear what that's doing
2015-08-23T05:46:44Z |3b|: right, it is a type, not a function
2015-08-23T05:47:01Z |3b|: (typep 8 '(integer 0 10))
2015-08-23T05:47:05Z White_Flame: that's how you specify a type, where a type specifier is asked
2015-08-23T05:47:15Z |3b|: (typep 8 '(integer 5 15))
2015-08-23T05:48:00Z |3b|: also messy to figure out priority of types like (satisfies evenp) (8 is also a member of that type)
2015-08-23T05:48:15Z Lokathor: okay, slow down a moment. in java, and in python, a class is alsp a type.
2015-08-23T05:48:29Z Lokathor: plus a few primitive types in java
2015-08-23T05:48:32Z White_Flame: in Java, is int a type?
2015-08-23T05:48:37Z White_Flame: s/type/class/ :-P
2015-08-23T05:48:56Z Lokathor: but in common lisp... a class... is not connected to a type? or..?
2015-08-23T05:48:57Z |3b|: on the other hand, the class hierarchy in CL is a tree with obvious hierarchy which can be used to prioritize method dispatch
2015-08-23T05:49:04Z |3b|: all classes are types
2015-08-23T05:49:07Z White_Flame: Java also has the type void which isn't a class
2015-08-23T05:49:21Z Lokathor: so types are a superset of classes
2015-08-23T05:49:22Z |3b|: most types are not classes (for example the infinite number of integer types)
2015-08-23T05:49:44Z White_Flame: types can specify a value should be of a class, or any other type of predicate
2015-08-23T05:49:52Z |3b|: (aside from the few specific ones like INTEGER itself)
2015-08-23T05:50:24Z Lokathor: |3b|, i'm not very mathy but i'm not familiar with an infinite number of integer types
2015-08-23T05:50:42Z White_Flame: (integer 1 3) (integer 1 4) (integer 1 5) etc
2015-08-23T05:50:43Z |3b|: (integer 0 1) is the type containing integers from 0 to 1
2015-08-23T05:50:54Z |3b|: (integer 0 2) is 0 to 2, and so on
2015-08-23T05:51:17Z |3b|: then same for ranges starting at 1, 2, 3, etc, and all the negative variants as well
2015-08-23T05:51:18Z Lokathor: ah, so like hex numbers and decimal numbers are different types under this definition of type
2015-08-23T05:51:38Z Oladon: Hex/Decimal are just representations
2015-08-23T05:51:50Z |3b|: numbers are just numbers, hex vs decimal is just about the printed representation
2015-08-23T05:52:12Z Lokathor: uhhh
2015-08-23T05:52:17Z White_Flame: "integers within the range between 10 and 20" is a type of integer
2015-08-23T05:52:31Z Lokathor: so
2015-08-23T05:52:32Z White_Flame: 21 is not of that type
2015-08-23T05:52:34Z Lokathor: a type is like a set
2015-08-23T05:52:40Z White_Flame: it's more like a predicate
2015-08-23T05:52:56Z White_Flame: and one predicate test is that a value be an instance of a particular class, but it can also be pretty much anything else
2015-08-23T05:53:24Z |3b| wouldn't object to saying a type is a set, but has no idea if someone who uses the term more precisely might
2015-08-23T05:53:41Z White_Flame: it's a set if you also wrap your head around the notion of infinite sets
2015-08-23T05:53:52Z |3b|: you might not be able to enumerate that set though
2015-08-23T05:54:07Z White_Flame: "the set of all integers greater than 3, or NIL", for instance
2015-08-23T05:54:20Z Lokathor: "a predicate that can form a set"
2015-08-23T05:55:04Z Lokathor: so CLOS dispatches on type
2015-08-23T05:55:07Z Lokathor: which is a bunch of predicates
2015-08-23T05:55:12Z |3b|: CLOS dispatches on /class/
2015-08-23T05:55:18Z Lokathor: oh
2015-08-23T05:55:22Z |3b|: because dispatching on type would be too confusing
2015-08-23T05:55:36Z Lokathor: how did type come up then?
2015-08-23T05:55:49Z Lokathor: oh, "class, not type"
2015-08-23T05:55:50Z Lokathor: that was it
2015-08-23T05:56:51Z Lokathor: so CLOS dispatches a generic function (aka 'method') based on the class of each paramater given during the call?
2015-08-23T05:57:06Z beach: |3b|: I think in Common Lisp, a type is definitely a set of objects.
2015-08-23T05:57:10Z |3b|: right, or on a specific value if it has an EQL specializer
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2015-08-23T05:57:36Z |3b|: (for each parameter)
2015-08-23T05:57:55Z Lokathor: i think using a keyword is best in this case
2015-08-23T05:58:14Z Lokathor: if this were Java or Haskell, i'd use an Enum. Keywords seem to be closest to that in the simplest way.
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2015-08-23T05:59:32Z White_Flame: right, that's why the ffi interface to enums translates into keywords
2015-08-23T06:00:13Z |3b|: yeah, keywords (or sometimes other symbols) are usually used for what would be an "enum" in other languages
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2015-08-23T07:42:39Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: cl-charms/low-level is just a package, it's not a system.
2015-08-23T07:43:06Z Lokathor: yeah eventually i figured how to access charms/ll
2015-08-23T07:43:32Z Lokathor: (charms/ll:curs-set 0) and such
2015-08-23T07:43:47Z hitecnologys: The exported functions list is messed up.
2015-08-23T07:43:55Z hitecnologys: There's been an issue about that too.
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2015-08-23T07:44:10Z Lokathor: i added an issue that the constants aren't converted to the lisp naming format
2015-08-23T07:44:32Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks! processing it :)
2015-08-23T07:45:01Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: hmm, yeah that sounds like a good thing to improve too.
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2015-08-23T07:45:57Z hitecnologys: I should probably find a week or two to close all those reports once and for all. Half of the issues have been hanging there for like... a year?
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2015-08-23T07:46:26Z Lokathor: i fiddled a bit with writing my own wrapper layer just to get refamiliarized with curses https://github.com/Lokathor/seric/blob/master/charming.lisp
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2015-08-23T07:48:17Z hitecnologys: Oh, roguelikes!
2015-08-23T07:48:45Z Lokathor: yesindeed
2015-08-23T07:50:02Z hitecnologys: You should totally check out the develop branch of ISoL where I used cl-charms and cl-tui for UI and controls handling: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/ISoL/tree/develop
2015-08-23T07:50:19Z hitecnologys: The code is old but nothing really changed since then.
2015-08-23T07:51:27Z Lokathor: i have to learn how to make projects load
2015-08-23T07:52:06Z hitecnologys: Err, (asdf:load-system :name)?
2015-08-23T07:52:15Z hitecnologys: Or you mean how to make ASDF discover them?
2015-08-23T07:52:23Z Lokathor: yeah i mean how to set it up so that you can load a thing
2015-08-23T07:52:30Z Lokathor: i'll get to that tomorrow probably
2015-08-23T07:52:36Z Lokathor: it's 2am my time
2015-08-23T07:52:42Z hitecnologys: OK, night.
2015-08-23T07:53:06Z Lokathor: i'm not totally dead
2015-08-23T07:53:14Z Lokathor: but i'm beyond large amounts of reading
2015-08-23T07:53:22Z Lokathor: i do have pepper fries though
2015-08-23T07:53:26Z hitecnologys: It seems like we're 11 hours off-sync.
2015-08-23T07:53:43Z Lokathor: you live in... far east europe?
2015-08-23T07:54:16Z hitecnologys: I live in western Russia.
2015-08-23T07:54:35Z hitecnologys: UTC+6 that is.
2015-08-23T07:54:59Z Lokathor: most of what i know of russia is about 700 years out of date
2015-08-23T07:55:23Z Lokathor: last i heard, you were trying to drive back the mongols and failing, but then they never persued into the forests of europe
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2015-08-23T07:55:50Z Lokathor: history will never know how well horse archers would have done in dense pine forest mountains
2015-08-23T07:56:18Z hitecnologys: Well, I guess not very good.
2015-08-23T07:56:38Z Lokathor: probably not
2015-08-23T07:56:49Z hitecnologys: Alright, gone make some food and coffee. Be right back.
2015-08-23T07:58:29Z Lokathor: one thing i didn't quite understand what it was doing was https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/high-level/windows.lisp#L17
2015-08-23T07:59:49Z Lokathor: i don't understand how the pointer that initialize gets back from charms/ll:initscr gets to standard-window and then wrapped in an instance that gets put in *standard-window*
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2015-08-23T08:09:53Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: well, it doesn't. *STANDARD-WINDOW* is bound there: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/blob/master/src/high-level/initialization.lisp#L40.
2015-08-23T08:10:42Z hitecnologys: Lokathor: STANDARD-WINDOW just caches the value of STDSCR.
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2015-08-23T08:16:39Z Lokathor: so (cffi:defcvar ("stdscr" *STDSCR* :library libcurses) window-ptr) is what sets the value of *stdscr*
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2015-08-23T08:18:06Z hitecnologys: *STDSCR* is just a variable that accesses ncurses's internal STDSCR variable that is initialized when ncurses is initialized.
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2015-08-23T08:18:47Z Lokathor: so you can read from it after initialization, but i'm guessing you shouldn't try to write to it?
2015-08-23T08:19:29Z Lokathor: alright, i think i'm equipped to try doing some more curses work tomorrow then
2015-08-23T08:20:06Z hitecnologys: Yes, you shouldn't.
2015-08-23T08:20:22Z Lokathor: if i can fill in my charming.lisp outline i'll have the minimum requirements to get going. Stuff beyond that (strings, colors, etc) would be nice, but not required.
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2015-08-23T08:40:08Z rritoch: How do you get the value of an argument within a macro? As an example that doesn't work (defmacro toggler (a) (if (< a 0) 1 -1)) (toggler (+ 1 2))
2015-08-23T08:40:53Z Lokathor: i'm not sure.. that macros do that
2015-08-23T08:41:22Z White_Flame: values aren't passed into macros; source code is
2015-08-23T08:41:41Z Lokathor: that seems like what a function should be doing. a macro is run at compile time, so (a) has no value at that time
2015-08-23T08:42:40Z rritoch: White_Flame: I realize that, but how do I get the value. I'm working on a problem with passing PRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK.17 and it seems I need to be able to evaluate the value of the argument to determine if it is circular or not.
2015-08-23T08:43:06Z White_Flame: rritoch: as Lokathor mentioned, at the time the macro is expanded, that variable has no value
2015-08-23T08:43:30Z White_Flame: (assuming that A names a variable passed into toggler)
2015-08-23T08:44:00Z White_Flame: (defmacro toggler (a) `(if (< ,a 0) 1 -1)) is effectively the same as defining it as a function, and declaring it inline
2015-08-23T08:44:15Z White_Flame: and should be declared as a function
2015-08-23T08:44:25Z rritoch: Ok, so therefore the print-logical-block macro specification is invalid since it requires a check for circularity when any such check would be impossible?
2015-08-23T08:44:27Z White_Flame: because it's not really doing anything at compile time
2015-08-23T08:44:42Z White_Flame: that's runtime execution semantics, not compile-time
2015-08-23T08:45:00Z White_Flame: the macro generates code that performs runtime checks when the expanded macro body is eventually executed
2015-08-23T08:46:18Z White_Flame: remember, (defun foo (a) (toggler a)) -> (defun foo (a)  ...toggler replacement using the symbol 'A...)
2015-08-23T08:46:29Z White_Flame: foo hasn't yet been called, and A has no value
2015-08-23T08:46:39Z White_Flame: (assuming toggler is a macro)
2015-08-23T08:47:53Z White_Flame: if you need runtime functionality that tests on stuff on invocation of foo, use a function.  You can use a macro to conveniently insert code to call that runtime function, but the macro is being expanded before the (defun foo ...) has completed the DEFUN processing
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2015-08-23T08:52:07Z rritoch: Well, this requirement is a bit insane https://github.com/rritoch/jrelisp-abcl/blob/master/ansi-test/trunk/ansi-tests/pprint-logical-block.lsp#L233-L250
2015-08-23T08:53:19Z rritoch: There is NO possiblity of determining if the argument of the line #245 is going to be circular with the call at line #248 unless you can determine the value of the arguments ahead of time.
2015-08-23T08:53:32Z White_Flame: right, you leave it up to runtime
2015-08-23T08:53:58Z White_Flame: the purpose of most &body-containing macros is to wrap wind-up and wind-down code before & after the body block
2015-08-23T08:54:23Z White_Flame: so all the tests happen in the actual streaming output as called by #'write
2015-08-23T08:54:35Z White_Flame: the pprint-logical-block sets up the context
2015-08-23T08:54:46Z |3b|: clhs pprint-logical-block
2015-08-23T08:54:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm
2015-08-23T08:55:03Z |3b|: did you see the 2nd para in the Notes?
2015-08-23T08:56:31Z rritoch: Yeah, this damn implementation is only doing one pass, that's probably why I've wasted so much time on this damn test.
2015-08-23T09:00:19Z rritoch: So I just need to double the macro so the expansion does everything twice, the first time collecting circles, and the second time implementing them.
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2015-08-23T09:01:25Z rritoch: Thanks for the assitance, at least I know I just need to rewrite the entire circular detection system because this particular implmenetation was coded to do it in a single pass, making that test impossible to pass.
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2015-08-23T09:11:28Z knobo: I have a vector with bytes. How can I easily check if that vector exists in a file? (kind of grep)
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2015-08-23T09:14:34Z |3b|: clhs search
2015-08-23T09:14:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm
2015-08-23T09:14:53Z |3b|: (assuming your file fits in memory easily)
2015-08-23T09:15:46Z |3b|: or i guess assuming your vector is small relative to memory so overlapping pieces of the file in memory isn't prohibitively expensive
2015-08-23T09:15:59Z |3b|: or just call grep
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2015-08-23T09:17:45Z knobo: right, how do I extend the heap?
2015-08-23T09:17:48Z knobo: It's a bit small
2015-08-23T09:17:52Z knobo: on sbcl
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2015-08-23T09:18:21Z |3b|: --dynamic-space-size i think (during build or at runtime), but watch out for order of command-line options
2015-08-23T09:19:10Z knobo: at runtime?
2015-08-23T09:19:20Z |3b|: at the time you run sbcl
2015-08-23T09:19:24Z knobo: aha.
2015-08-23T09:19:41Z knobo: So, it's not possible while running?
2015-08-23T09:19:51Z White_Flame: the manual doesn't mention it, but you can abbreviate it such as --dynamic-space-size 32gb
2015-08-23T09:20:35Z |3b|: right, sbcl currently needs to allocate a block of address space in advance, so can't change it after it starts
2015-08-23T09:21:18Z White_Flame: which is still a shame, that many GC languages require a preconfigured heap max
2015-08-23T09:21:20Z knobo: Can I check the current space-size?
2015-08-23T09:22:07Z |3b|: yes, but i don't remember how :/
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2015-08-23T09:22:47Z White_Flame: see 7.4.3: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Garbage-Collection
2015-08-23T09:23:20Z White_Flame: (direct link I guess http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Introspection-and-Tuning )
2015-08-23T09:23:30Z Shinmera: knobo: sb-ext:dynamic-space-size and sb-kernel:dynamic-usage
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2015-08-23T09:24:17Z White_Flame: note also that they're functions, not variables
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2015-08-23T09:24:33Z Shinmera: if you just want a visual, use ROOM
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2015-08-23T09:27:14Z knobo: Thanx :)
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2015-08-23T09:31:00Z knobo: wow, this was fun :) I love sundays :)
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2015-08-23T10:38:19Z AeroNotix: knobo: http://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html
2015-08-23T10:38:21Z AeroNotix: this is quite interestnig
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2015-08-23T10:41:15Z AeroNotix: this makes me incredibly jealous against people working on CL systems
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2015-08-23T10:41:46Z AeroNotix: I work on Erlang systems at $DAYJOB and if you squint hard enough these introspection utilities are almost available, but in a really dumbly packaged and opinionated way
2015-08-23T10:43:41Z AeroNotix: anyone have more articles like that^?
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2015-08-23T11:12:13Z knobo: AeroNotix: thanx for the link
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2015-08-23T11:20:04Z AeroNotix: np
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2015-08-23T14:20:23Z LiamH: Why would (require :sb-aclrepl) look in a new version of SBCL look in the path of an old version, and how can I fix it?
2015-08-23T14:20:40Z LiamH: Why would (require :sb-aclrepl) in a new version of SBCL look in the path of an old version, and how can I fix it?
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2015-08-23T14:31:44Z LiamH: hmm OK apparently I need to set SBCL_HOME
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2015-08-23T16:16:25Z AeroNotix: sbcl.org still includes a link to sourceforge
2015-08-23T16:16:34Z AeroNotix: perhaps in light of recent events, that should be removed?
2015-08-23T16:17:36Z Shinmera: SBCL will remain on sourceforge for now.
2015-08-23T16:18:13Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: interesting. Is there a discussion I can read regarding this?
2015-08-23T16:18:20Z AeroNotix: e.g. on the mailing list
2015-08-23T16:18:44Z Shinmera: I don't know about the mailing list, but people got pretty tired of the 'discussion' after not too long on IRC:
2015-08-23T16:18:46Z Shinmera: *.
2015-08-23T16:19:05Z AeroNotix: OK
2015-08-23T16:19:47Z Shinmera: Generally the point is that SBCL maintainers have better  things to do than to move to a different hosting platform.
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2015-08-23T16:20:03Z AeroNotix: makes sense.
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2015-08-23T16:22:12Z renopt: that makes sense for frivilous things, like github's new 'tolerance, or else' policies
2015-08-23T16:23:07Z renopt: but sourceforge has been outright malicious
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2015-08-23T16:33:22Z lpgl: Hi ! Does someone knows how well is CLIM2 is implemented in Common Lisp in GENERA (Symbolics lisp machine OS) ? Is it a better implementation than the McCLIM one for more modern Lisp systems ?
2015-08-23T16:34:20Z Shinmera: My Ludum Dare lisp game is coming along, though way too slowly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEa7x6oFzcs
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2015-08-23T16:39:26Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: what are you using for that?
2015-08-23T16:39:33Z AeroNotix: e.g. libraries etc
2015-08-23T16:40:19Z Shinmera: Qtools, Flare.
2015-08-23T16:41:05Z Ralt: Xach: ping
2015-08-23T16:41:11Z Ralt: hi
2015-08-23T16:41:13Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: flare?
2015-08-23T16:41:21Z Ralt: is there a way to load just a system's dependencies? not the system itself, just the depends-on field.
2015-08-23T16:42:00Z Ralt: some magic asdf method.
2015-08-23T16:42:06Z Ralt: hm..
2015-08-23T16:42:12Z Ralt: or just get the field without loading the system
2015-08-23T16:42:20Z Ralt: ... going to the REPL to find if there's such a method.
2015-08-23T16:42:50Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: https://github.com/Shinmera/flare
2015-08-23T16:44:02Z Ralt: hm.. it seems I need to load the system before being able to play with it
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2015-08-23T16:46:47Z Ralt: this does it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154145
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2015-08-23T16:51:50Z Xach: Ralt: hi
2015-08-23T16:52:22Z Xach: glad i could help
2015-08-23T16:52:29Z Ralt: Xach: heh :-)
2015-08-23T16:52:46Z Ralt: Xach: I'm currently writing a gist to have everything
2015-08-23T16:53:05Z Xach: Ralt: have every what thing?
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2015-08-23T16:53:52Z Ralt: Xach: to have a global quicklisp. Sorry, I should've put in context that I'm the guy on reddit :-)
2015-08-23T16:54:18Z Xach: the margarine guy?
2015-08-23T16:54:22Z Xach: ok
2015-08-23T16:54:23Z Ralt: yeah
2015-08-23T16:54:26Z AeroNotix: margarine lol
2015-08-23T16:54:29Z Xach: Ralt: what will making that list do for you?
2015-08-23T16:54:38Z AeroNotix: Ralt: why do you want a global quicklisp though?
2015-08-23T16:55:07Z Xach: Ralt: maybe I can save you some work if I understand better
2015-08-23T16:55:29Z Xach: For example, you can get a list of every provided quicklisp system object with (ql-dist:provided-systems t)
2015-08-23T16:55:51Z Ralt: Xach: I wanted to load *just* the dependencies of a system, not the system itself
2015-08-23T16:55:55Z Xach: ql-dist:required-systems works on those objects
2015-08-23T16:56:02Z Ralt: using (asdf:component-load-dependencies) works fine for that
2015-08-23T16:56:06Z Ralt: oh
2015-08-23T16:56:15Z Ralt: ql-dist:required-systems might be what I want
2015-08-23T16:56:33Z Xach: Sometimes just using ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM can run a lot of code.
2015-08-23T16:56:42Z Xach: like with :defsystem-depends-on, eval-whens, groveling, etc
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2015-08-23T16:56:50Z Xach: .asd files are lisp programs
2015-08-23T16:56:52Z Ralt: ah, right.
2015-08-23T16:57:05Z Ralt: well, I have to run them no matter what, no?
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2015-08-23T16:57:33Z Xach: I'm not sure...quicklisp has a precompiled database of that info, at least for quicklisp systems
2015-08-23T16:57:46Z Xach: I run it on my system, save the results, and publish them as a database
2015-08-23T16:59:05Z Ralt: oh, I see
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2015-08-23T16:59:32Z Ralt: I basically want to do (loop for system in (dependencies-of system) do (ql:quickload system))
2015-08-23T17:00:04Z Xach: Interesting. To what end?
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2015-08-23T17:00:33Z Ralt: if you're working with a global quicklisp, you need to download the dependencies before running your system
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2015-08-23T17:00:48Z Ralt: (because you need sudo to run this)
2015-08-23T17:01:05Z Xach: You could also download everything up front, I guess. No more downloads.
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2015-08-23T17:05:24Z Ralt: Xach: scenario: I want to be able to tell someone "here, download this lisp project in ~/common-lisp, run `sudo ql-quickload system-name` and then `cl -Q -sp project-name`"
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2015-08-23T17:07:53Z Ralt: AeroNotix: sorry for not replying earlier. I want quicklisp to be a dependency for debian packages. Right now, cl-quicklisp exists, but it only gets quicklisp.lisp somewhere, you then have to run the local install yourself. It's not really usable from a dependency point of view. I want to have a package that will install the dependencies via quicklisp... so install quicklisp, and installing my package should run quicklisp to get the
2015-08-23T17:07:53Z Ralt: dependencies.
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2015-08-23T17:09:34Z Ralt: Xach: hm.. ql-dist will only work with packages *in* quicklisp dist. I want it to work for other systems (see use case I mention there ^)
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2015-08-23T17:10:10Z Xach: Ralt: ok. my impression is that there are a lot of issues trying to gather that info.
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2015-08-23T17:12:13Z Ralt: Xach: here is some kind of draft: https://gist.github.com/ralt/645c1a63f8b9d4f38a93
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2015-08-23T17:13:11Z Ralt: right now, for deployment purposes, I *have* to go through a dumped lisp image. There's no other way, since quicklisp can't be available on servers without manual install.
2015-08-23T17:13:22Z Ralt: this is what I'm trying to fix :)
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2015-08-23T17:16:02Z Xach: Good luck. I don't see how it could work.
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2015-08-23T18:02:36Z Lokathor: why does sbcl take so long to start up on my raspberry pi compared to a standard computer, and is there anything i can do about it?
2015-08-23T18:03:38Z Lokathor: it takes about 12 seconds to start up on the rpi but not even 1 second on a standard desktop. Is the ARM build just very poor at loading or something?
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2015-08-23T18:07:30Z p_l: Lokathor: it's because you have piss-poor I/O performance on the RPi
2015-08-23T18:08:15Z p_l: so, especially with cold cache, you get slow loading speed + slowness of the cpu in comparison to what you have on the desktop
2015-08-23T18:08:46Z Lokathor: drat
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2015-08-23T18:09:15Z Lokathor: i think it's the disk more than the CPU
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2015-08-23T18:09:38Z Lokathor: the other machine i tested on was a 1.3Ghz, the rpi2 is 1.0Ghz
2015-08-23T18:10:57Z axion: CCL had ARM support long before SBCL. It may be more mature/optimized but I'm not sure.
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2015-08-23T18:12:04Z axion: I ran CCL on a raspberry pi years ago and performance was acceptable. No clue how it is now
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2015-08-23T18:34:48Z Lokathor: well once it starts up performance is good
2015-08-23T18:34:53Z Lokathor: it just takes ages to start up
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2015-08-23T18:36:07Z jackdaniel: clisp ran on arm from the very start ;-P
2015-08-23T18:36:36Z axion: SD cards are not really meant for random i/o, moreso sequential such as for multimedia r/w
2015-08-23T18:36:45Z axion: you may want to attach an actual disk
2015-08-23T18:37:15Z Lokathor: part of the charm is that it's a little tiny box hooked up to USB power and an ethernet cable and that's it :/
2015-08-23T18:37:53Z Lokathor: i could use a different machine if i really needed to.
2015-08-23T18:38:07Z Lokathor: actually i couldn't get emacs working right on the other machine, but whatever
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2015-08-23T19:26:15Z stupidpioneers: what does the empty symbol mean?
2015-08-23T19:28:27Z pjb: Yes, what do you mean by "empty" symbol?
2015-08-23T19:29:06Z pjb: Perhaps you mean empty list?  In CL, an empty list is represented with the symbol CL:NIL.
2015-08-23T19:29:18Z stupidpioneers: my book uses ((empty)) as a terminator for a list
2015-08-23T19:29:28Z pjb: But NIL also means no value, false, nothing, bottom, etc.
2015-08-23T19:29:33Z stupidpioneers: i guess it's just an arbitrary name the author liked?
2015-08-23T19:29:39Z pjb: stupidpioneers: you can use anything.
2015-08-23T19:29:40Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-23T19:29:55Z stupidpioneers: ok thanks
2015-08-23T19:29:59Z pjb: But standard CL functions use CL:NIL and expect CL:NIL.
2015-08-23T19:30:12Z pjb: If you implement your own list processing functions, you can use something else.
2015-08-23T19:30:24Z stupidpioneers: what's cl:nil?
2015-08-23T19:30:32Z pjb: (but there would be little reason to do so).
2015-08-23T19:30:34Z stupidpioneers: why is there a colon
2015-08-23T19:30:57Z pjb: stupidpioneers: in Common Lisp, there are packages, and you can have different symbols with the same name in different packages.
2015-08-23T19:31:25Z pjb: so just saying NIL is kind of ambiguous, since it could be MY-PACKAGE:NIL or CL:NIL or SOMETHING-ELSE:NIL and they could be distinct.
2015-08-23T19:31:46Z stupidpioneers: what's the name of that colon?
2015-08-23T19:31:54Z stupidpioneers: and is it cl specific?
2015-08-23T19:31:57Z pjb: In CL, () is read as CL:NIL.  But again, only if #\( in the current readtable is the standard reader macro that does this reading of () as CL:NIL.
2015-08-23T19:33:12Z pjb: It's not CL specific, AFAIK, several earlier lisp had packages too, and used #\: as a package marker.
2015-08-23T19:33:29Z pjb: CL:NIL is read as (intern "NIL" "CL")
2015-08-23T19:33:37Z pjb: *as the result of
2015-08-23T19:33:53Z pjb: NIL is read as the result of (intern "NIL" cl:*package*)
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2015-08-23T19:36:24Z stupidpioneers: pjb: what does #\: and #\( mean?
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2015-08-23T19:37:03Z pjb: #\: is the standard Common Lisp syntax for the character of ":".
2015-08-23T19:37:21Z pjb: ":" is the standard Common Lisp syntax for the string containing #\:.
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2015-08-23T19:37:44Z pjb: stupidpioneers: Read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm
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2015-08-23T19:41:21Z stupidpioneers: pjb: cool thanks
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2015-08-23T19:47:33Z stupidpioneers: pjb: so there's no construct for characters that's standard for all dialects of lisp?
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2015-08-23T19:56:16Z Xach: stupidpioneers: no
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2015-08-23T21:01:57Z Arathnim: Is there a common lisp loop equivalent to iter's (finding expr minimizing expr), or is the best way 'minimize expr into result finally (return expr)'
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2015-08-23T21:04:14Z shka: How to break in the slot reader?
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2015-08-23T21:17:28Z shka: actually, never mind
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2015-08-23T21:23:12Z Xach: Arathnim: you can just use use (loop for expr ... minimizing expr)
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2015-08-23T21:23:20Z Xach: Arathnim: you don't need the INTO or FINALLY bits
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2015-08-23T21:34:45Z Corvidium: It's been too damn long since I've been here
2015-08-23T21:34:52Z Corvidium: or done anything, really.
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2015-08-23T21:45:54Z sigjuice: where can I find documentation on what #| means?  I can't quite figure out what is it called or what to search for.
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2015-08-23T21:46:29Z p_l: sigjuice: comment block
2015-08-23T21:46:30Z Xach: clhs #|
2015-08-23T21:46:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhs.htm
2015-08-23T21:47:01Z Xach: The somewhat unwieldy "sharpsign vertical-bar"
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2015-08-23T21:49:01Z sigjuice: thanks. for some reason a #| ... |# construct in my code is confusing paredit. To begin with, I wanted to understand what #| precisely meant.
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2015-08-23T21:49:27Z Shinmera: #| shouldn't confuse paredit. At least it hasn't ever for me.
2015-08-23T21:49:58Z Shinmera: What might confuse it is opening parens on new lines within a comment.
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2015-08-23T21:54:36Z sigjuice: Shinmera: that is exactly what is happening to me.  If I have a ( on a newline within a comment, then if I type ( outside the comment, paredit will not automatically add the closing )
2015-08-23T21:55:03Z Shinmera: You can "fix" it by adding a space or any other character before the paren.
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2015-08-23T21:55:44Z Shinmera: (if I remember correctly paredit will also get confused about parens on newlines within strings)
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2015-08-24T00:33:31Z Shinmera: Welp, Ludum Dare is over for me. Results: http://ludumdare.com/compo/2015/08/23/all-done-all-over-welcome-to-the-end/ and the source for those who like hastily hacked together code: https://github.com/Shinmera/ld33
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2015-08-24T00:35:21Z Lokathor: what was Ludum Dare?
2015-08-24T00:35:32Z Lokathor: i saw the website before but wasn't able to make sense of things
2015-08-24T00:35:33Z Shinmera: 48 hour from scratch game jam
2015-08-24T00:35:36Z Lokathor: a programming jam?
2015-08-24T00:35:37Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-24T00:35:50Z Lokathor: i once did a 7 hour roguelike
2015-08-24T00:36:05Z Lokathor: but other than that, not really a jam type person i guess. too many distractions in my house
2015-08-24T00:36:37Z Shinmera: Either way, I need to catch some Zs.
2015-08-24T00:36:41Z resttime: Nice job
2015-08-24T00:36:44Z Shinmera: Good night #lisp
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2015-08-24T00:38:47Z atgnag: How can I work with very large decimal numbers?
2015-08-24T00:39:11Z atgnag: For example, (- (expt 2 256) 1) casted into a float?
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2015-08-24T00:43:56Z pillton: atgnag: Can you rephrase the question in to a problem you are having.
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2015-08-24T00:56:16Z |3b|: atgnag: if double-float isn't enough, gnu clisp lets you change the size of long-float at run time, otherwise you might be able to use rationals, or maybe look for GMP bindings (at least i think it does arbitrary precision floats)
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2015-08-24T00:58:13Z |3b| thinks cmucl has a double-double type or something like that as well
2015-08-24T00:59:16Z |3b|: aside from rationals those are all still binary floats though, so if the 'decimal' part means base-10 and that is important, you probably don't want any of the float variants
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2015-08-24T01:38:44Z White_Flame: atgnag: I think your best bet would be to work with rational numbers.  Instead of a float representation of, say 150000.0345, you should have 1500000345/1000 which will be exact.  Floats will always round your precision away
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2015-08-24T01:41:10Z White_Flame: but that all depends on your needs; if you do want a certain length of fractional decimal digits retained with lower precision numbers chopped off, then you might just consider fixed point with a 10^n offset
2015-08-24T01:41:30Z White_Flame: s/lower precision numbers/lower precision digits/
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2015-08-24T01:42:39Z atgnag: White_Flame: Well, here's the problem I wanted to solve.
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2015-08-24T01:43:53Z atgnag: I wanted to explain, if you had a hash-rate of 1mil per second, how long would it take to crack a key with 256 bits?
2015-08-24T01:44:33Z White_Flame: that's all integer math.  Above, you were asking about casting a large number into a float
2015-08-24T01:44:59Z atgnag: Sticking to rational numbers would result in an accurate ansewr, but the resulting fraction would not be very parseable by people.
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2015-08-24T01:45:37Z White_Flame: sure, convert to integer or float for human-friendly presentation
2015-08-24T01:47:02Z White_Flame: btw, #'floor is the general way to round to an integer from other types, while #'float should be self-explanatory
2015-08-24T01:47:27Z White_Flame: (there's also #'ceiling and others)
2015-08-24T01:48:35Z White_Flame: but for displaying "number of seconds taken to perform long tasks", you should also consider converting it to minutes, hours, days, years, etc depending on its magnitude
2015-08-24T01:48:55Z atgnag: White_Flame: Yeah, I just realized that.
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2015-08-24T01:49:54Z White_Flame: and floor will perform div&mod for you to split out each of those fields
2015-08-24T01:50:27Z White_Flame: eg for 1000 seconds, (floor 1000 60) -> 16 40, so 16 minutes, 40 seconds
2015-08-24T01:50:28Z atgnag: White_Flame: How do you comment again? I'm experimenting with units of measure, and I could very easily see this getting confusing on a repl.
2015-08-24T01:50:42Z White_Flame: ;; comment until end of line
2015-08-24T01:50:51Z White_Flame: #| embedded or multiline comment |#
2015-08-24T01:51:01Z atgnag: Thanks.
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2015-08-24T01:55:16Z White_Flame: actually, to-EOL commends only need 1 semicolon.  I'm just used to always using 2 because of Emacs indentation rules
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2015-08-24T01:58:02Z aeth: Why does Common Lisp only support bases between 2 and 36?
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2015-08-24T02:00:04Z aeth: oh, A-Z and 0-9
2015-08-24T02:00:55Z White_Flame: right, it could go further if it decided to use some punctuation or distinguish lower- and upper-case characters.  But 2-36 is simplest
2015-08-24T02:01:30Z phf: aeth: where did you find 36? i'm not seeing it in the standard
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2015-08-24T02:02:16Z phf: oh it's one of the examples..
2015-08-24T02:03:19Z aeth: phf: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhj.htm
2015-08-24T02:03:29Z aeth: "its value must be between 2 and 36 (inclusive)"
2015-08-24T02:03:39Z phf: ooh i see, thanks
2015-08-24T02:04:13Z aeth: you're right that in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_bas.htm it's only in the example part
2015-08-24T02:04:17Z aeth: that's kind of a flaw in the spec
2015-08-24T02:04:41Z aeth: It does however say "For radices above 10, letters of the alphabet are used to represent digits above 9." and assuming case insensitivity that does imply 36
2015-08-24T02:04:55Z White_Flame: yeah, digit-char doesn't mention anything at all
2015-08-24T02:05:28Z White_Flame: though SBCL at least will complain when the radix isn't (integer 2 36)
2015-08-24T02:05:32Z aeth: I first read about it in http://lisptips.com/post/44509805155/formatting-integers-in-different-radixes
2015-08-24T02:12:28Z aeth: oh cool... you can (bt:make-thread (lambda () (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/firefox" '("http://www.google.com/")))) and launch an application form SLIME
2015-08-24T02:12:33Z aeth: *from
2015-08-24T02:12:36Z aeth: Common Lisp as a shell
2015-08-24T02:13:33Z phf: aeth: you don't need to spawn a thread, sbcl's run-program forks and doesn't wait by default
2015-08-24T02:13:53Z aeth: phf: it seems to lock the REPL until the program exists unless I make it in a thread
2015-08-24T02:14:02Z phf: aeth: oh i'm sorry it's the opposite
2015-08-24T02:14:25Z phf: you can pass :wait nil to run-program to make sure it doesn't wait
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2015-08-24T02:14:55Z aeth: ah, ok, :wait nil
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2015-08-24T03:04:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-24T03:10:12Z theos: hey
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2015-08-24T03:30:44Z beach: I THINK I know how to use Kildall's algorithm for simple value numbering where I can detect that two (potentially different) variables in two similar tests in two different parts of a program contain the same value.  Then, if one test dominates the other, I can remove the second one using path replication.  Knowing how to detect such equivalences is the secret to several optimizations and transformations at the HIR level.
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2015-08-24T03:34:55Z beach: Among other things, it will allow me to remove the tests for CONS-ness and NULL-ness in the (CDR W) in (LET ((X (CAR W)) (Y (CDR W))) ...)
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2015-08-24T03:40:33Z kristof: :t ($)
2015-08-24T03:40:42Z kristof: wrong channel!
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2015-08-24T04:15:12Z loke: kristof: Was that even meant for a channel?
2015-08-24T04:18:45Z kristof: loke: #haskell has a bot that checks the types of functions
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2015-08-24T04:56:22Z pjb: Haskell, the new perl…
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2015-08-24T05:15:42Z beach: pjb: What are you working on these days?  Still doing OpenMusic?
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2015-08-24T05:34:11Z pjb: beach: Yes I should still work on Patchwork.  I've not been too productive on it.  I've started working on a C parser in CL (with the ultimate purpose of translating GNU emacs C sources to CL).
2015-08-24T05:34:41Z beach: Nice.
2015-08-24T05:37:58Z beach: What parsing technology are you using?
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2015-08-24T05:42:04Z pjb: I use my own RDP parser generator.
2015-08-24T05:42:24Z pjb: I tried first to use the yacc grammar directly with cl-lalr, but it wasn't working well.
2015-08-24T05:42:58Z pjb: And since gcc has a hand-written RDP, who am I to say better use lalr?
2015-08-24T05:43:23Z beach: Since performance is not an issue, it might be worth trying combinatory parsing.  There is a Common Lisp library for that.
2015-08-24T05:45:26Z pjb: It might let us keep the grammar clearer than the transformation into LL1 indeed.
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2015-08-24T05:46:21Z beach: Yeah, I think that's true.
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2015-08-24T05:46:37Z beach: It makes for a much more modular grammar.
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2015-08-24T05:50:40Z beach: Did you see that Quadrescence wants to write a C compiler in Common Lisp?
2015-08-24T05:51:01Z beach: It would be good to share the parser then.
2015-08-24T05:51:38Z theos: why would you do that? let CL have nothing to do with C :S
2015-08-24T05:51:58Z theos: or maybe i am the only one who doesnt like C
2015-08-24T05:53:01Z beach: theos: Common Lisp is an excellent language for writing compilers.  So it seems reasonable to use it for writing a C compiler, should you want such a thing.
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2015-08-24T05:54:53Z theos: beach yes CL is a wonderful language for everything. its time we get rid of C asap! let CL takeover.
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2015-08-24T05:57:53Z jackdaniel: I knew I'm doing something backwards… ;-)
2015-08-24T05:57:55Z jackdaniel: good morning :)
2015-08-24T05:58:11Z theos: hey
2015-08-24T05:58:12Z beach: Good morning jackdaniel.
2015-08-24T06:01:57Z beach: theos: So what are you working on to help make that happen?
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2015-08-24T06:09:38Z pjb: theos: with a good C to CL compiler, you could use C libraries without relying on FFI.  Two big advantages: no FFI, and added safety.  One inconvenient: C code is not as fast as CL code.
2015-08-24T06:09:50Z pjb: But it beats having to rewrite everything in CL>
2015-08-24T06:10:12Z White_Flame: I wholeheartedly agree, and would work on that if I were not on other projects
2015-08-24T06:11:13Z White_Flame: or alternatively, convert the functions inside library binaries to CL
2015-08-24T06:11:26Z theos: beach i am working on a few little things as i admire the beauty of CL :D
2015-08-24T06:11:30Z White_Flame: which is its own set of complications
2015-08-24T06:11:34Z jackdaniel: compiling lisp to C has other adventages – people not writing in the Lisp can use CL libraries
2015-08-24T06:12:31Z jackdaniel: and CL code can use already built C libraries
2015-08-24T06:12:35Z theos: pjb i am a person who doesnt like to compromise. i would prefer to rewrite everything in CL.
2015-08-24T06:13:50Z beach: theos: We are waiting to see results from you.
2015-08-24T06:14:55Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: it's a distribution and cross-platform problem, though
2015-08-24T06:15:08Z White_Flame: as opposed to 'transpiling' into CL itself
2015-08-24T06:15:56Z theos: beach please dont wait. i dont consider myself to be a good CL coder yet. and i have a lot of commitments in life.
2015-08-24T06:16:20Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: I'm not sure if I follow - could you rephrase? (I'm not a bright english language student unfortunately)
2015-08-24T06:16:44Z beach: theos: Oh, so you kind of just see it as your role to encourage others to make it happen?
2015-08-24T06:16:48Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: if you have a binary .dll, that's hard to deploy onto linux or osx.  Convert the guts into CL, and you can go anywhere CL can without dragging that blob along
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2015-08-24T06:17:40Z White_Flame: (for data-centric stuff, of course, not things that make OS-specific calls)
2015-08-24T06:17:48Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: you are comparing compiled object with CL sources - you can go anywhere with C sources and you're equally fine
2015-08-24T06:17:56Z White_Flame: right
2015-08-24T06:17:59Z White_Flame: if you have the C sources
2015-08-24T06:18:09Z White_Flame: but if you do it from .dll/.so/whatever, you're also not limited to C
2015-08-24T06:18:34Z jackdaniel: so we are talking about .dll/.so/whatever -> CL compiler? I'm confused
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2015-08-24T06:18:41Z White_Flame: I brought that up
2015-08-24T06:18:59Z White_Flame: but yeah, it's certainly just another approach to the ease of use from CL issues
2015-08-24T06:19:25Z theos: beach i should learn to keep my mouth shut. sorry for the inconvenience. i will talk when i have something good to show.
2015-08-24T06:19:48Z White_Flame: theos: It's more the abolutist tone than anything else
2015-08-24T06:20:08Z White_Flame: most people want software to work, not to fight a righteous crusade about implementation details
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2015-08-24T06:26:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Remind me what ECL does about tail-calls, please!  Does it to tail-call optimization?  And if so, does it do that by using the trampoline technique in C code?
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2015-08-24T06:27:10Z Zhivago: From memory, it does nothing at all, other than perhaps rely on gcc's TCO support.
2015-08-24T06:27:21Z beach: Ah, OK.
2015-08-24T06:27:37Z Zhivago: But I haven't looked for years, so I might be out of date.
2015-08-24T06:28:00Z Zhivago: Still, given that they wanted to produce code that is callable from C without going insane, I expect that they have avoided doing anything exciting there.
2015-08-24T06:28:28Z beach: Makes sense.
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2015-08-24T06:32:34Z theos: White_Flame i guess most people are doing fine with that approach
2015-08-24T06:32:46Z jackdaniel: beach: it relies on gcc as Zhivago pointed
2015-08-24T06:33:26Z jackdaniel: btw, I'm pretty excited, I've found, that ECL had continuations support (as first class citizens) and green threads built on top of this
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2015-08-24T06:33:40Z jackdaniel: I plan to port these interfaces (removed in 2003) back
2015-08-24T06:34:39Z beach: jackdaniel: OK, thanks.
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2015-08-24T07:31:12Z juicy_bit: So, reading SICP will pretty much be like having a free compsci course, right?
2015-08-24T07:31:15Z juicy_bit: And it will help me catch up in programming? (I'm a noob?)
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2015-08-24T07:32:45Z Zhivago: It should help to learn programming.
2015-08-24T07:33:06Z Zhivago: I wouldn't consider it a replacement for a computer science course, which should cover computer science, rather than programming.
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2015-08-24T07:44:46Z juicy_bit: Zhivago: Will I come out of it knowing how to approach and make a game like Pacman or Snake on my own?
2015-08-24T07:45:08Z juicy_bit: As of now, I don't stand a ghost of a chance of achieving that on my own.
2015-08-24T07:46:51Z jackdaniel: your chances will definetely rise
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2015-08-24T07:52:50Z loke: What a weird cl-containers bug...
2015-08-24T07:52:50Z loke: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers/issues/6
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2015-08-24T08:17:11Z H4ns: loke: or a bug in log4cl maybe?
2015-08-24T08:17:31Z H4ns: loke: ah, no, i see your isolated test now
2015-08-24T08:17:34Z loke: H4ns: log4cl? I'm not even using it.
2015-08-24T08:17:53Z H4ns: loke: your initial stack trace has log4cl functions in it.
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2015-08-24T08:18:16Z loke: Ah yes. That's in the error handler though (i.e. after the error occurred)
2015-08-24T08:18:30Z loke: Anyway, the isolated test case is quote telling.
2015-08-24T08:18:30Z H4ns: loke: ok, ignore me :)
2015-08-24T08:18:58Z loke: I've been browsing the source of cl-containers, and I haven't found any shared data (except for some immutable constnats)
2015-08-24T08:19:12Z loke: Very bizarre.
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2015-08-24T08:34:48Z myrkraverk: Ok, apparently, (ql:quickload :cl-mustache :silent t) causes mustache itself to lose it's standard output.  Is there an easy way to restore standard output?
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2015-08-24T08:35:13Z myrkraverk: I don't know what quicklisp is doing behind the scenes, but is there a way to reset *standard-output* or whatever it is, in sbcl?
2015-08-24T08:37:09Z loke: myrkraverk: QL isn't doing anything about *standard-output*
2015-08-24T08:37:21Z loke: It'sprobably something that runs when loading/compiling the code.
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2015-08-24T08:37:46Z myrkraverk: But the :silent t is the only thing that's different - and with it - mustache outputs nothing.
2015-08-24T08:37:52Z Cymew: myrkraverk: Guessing wildly, have you tried  (describe *standard-output*) before and after loading, so it's actually related to std out?
2015-08-24T08:38:08Z myrkraverk: Err, no - this is in --scripts.
2015-08-24T08:38:11Z myrkraverk: but I can try that.
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2015-08-24T08:38:33Z loke: (let ((x *standard-output*)) (ql:whatever...) (setq *standard-output* x))
2015-08-24T08:40:19Z myrkraverk: I don't see *standard-output* being redefined, but I can try that let too.
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2015-08-24T08:41:09Z myrkraverk: Hmm, nope.
2015-08-24T08:41:20Z myrkraverk: So it's definitely not *standard-output* that's being meddled with.
2015-08-24T08:41:21Z loke: Exactly what is it that fails?
2015-08-24T08:41:32Z myrkraverk: (mustache:render)
2015-08-24T08:41:47Z myrkraverk: (mustache:render #P"hello.text")
2015-08-24T08:42:02Z myrkraverk: Is the line that's silent, when it's loaded with :silent t.
2015-08-24T08:44:07Z myrkraverk: Well, a workaround is
2015-08-24T08:44:09Z myrkraverk: (mustache:render #P"hello.text" '() *standard-output*)
2015-08-24T08:44:18Z myrkraverk: So I guess I'm "good" for now.
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2015-08-24T09:12:20Z pinterface: loke: You might be interested to inspect cl-containers::*rbt-empty-node* when it errors.
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2015-08-24T09:12:21Z jeaye: drmeister: ping
2015-08-24T09:12:21Z beach: jeaye: It's 5:10am where he lives.  I suspect he is asleep.
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2015-08-24T09:12:45Z jeaye: beach: Not a problem, I'll ping later if he doesn't. Thanks.
2015-08-24T09:21:28Z loke: pinterface: It's red
2015-08-24T09:21:41Z loke: pinterface: But this is an immutable objetc, isn't it?
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2015-08-24T09:24:10Z loke: No wait. I misread. It's black and that's how it's initialised as well.
2015-08-24T09:24:45Z loke: But wait a second. It has a parent... Wtf
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2015-08-24T10:21:20Z loke: pinterface: You were right. It seems like *rbt-empty-node* gets changed.
2015-08-24T10:21:31Z loke: I've updated the bug report.
2015-08-24T10:23:01Z pjb: loke: (let ((*standard-output* *standard-output*)) (ql:whatever))
2015-08-24T10:23:18Z loke: pjb: Of course. That's much clevererer
2015-08-24T10:23:19Z pjb: loke: your form was incorrect on several planes.
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2015-08-24T10:24:04Z loke: pjb: If I wanted to argue with you I'd talk about its behaviour in a multi-threaded context. :-)
2015-08-24T10:24:10Z loke: But I don't, and you're right.
2015-08-24T10:24:35Z pjb: and there's the problem of non-local exists.  You'd lack a unwind-protect.
2015-08-24T10:24:42Z loke: Of course
2015-08-24T10:24:52Z loke: I just suggested it as a test to see if it changes anything.
2015-08-24T10:25:35Z H4ns: should be easy to pin down now, though.  apparently, he does not check for the empty node before modifying the parent of a node in several places.
2015-08-24T10:26:11Z H4ns: there gary is bitten by not using nil to represent the empty node for no good reason :/
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2015-08-24T10:27:14Z loke: There was a comment explaining why somehere. Hmm.
2015-08-24T10:27:30Z loke: "This makes delete-item cleaner but means that you need to be careful
2015-08-24T10:27:30Z loke: ;;; in the rest of the code to use node-empty-p instead of just assuming that
2015-08-24T10:27:30Z loke: ;;; a node will be nil."
2015-08-24T10:27:49Z loke: delete-item got a bit too clean, I think.
2015-08-24T10:30:18Z loke: Seems like red-black trees are hard to get right. I used to use a different red-black implementation but it turned out to have bugs where removing elements caused extra elements to be removed. That code didn't have a maintainer so it got removed from QL. I then switched to cl-containers which worked well for testing, but once I started load-testing I got random errors which I have finally narrowed down to this one.
2015-08-24T10:30:25Z loke: Frustrating.
2015-08-24T10:30:38Z H4ns: programming is hard
2015-08-24T10:30:45Z loke: Yes, indeed.
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2015-08-24T10:31:14Z loke: I have fixed a ridiculous number bugs in low-level libraries that I use during the course of this project.
2015-08-24T10:31:38Z H4ns: there is a hidden message here
2015-08-24T10:31:48Z loke: what is that message, pray tell?
2015-08-24T10:33:12Z loke: ls
2015-08-24T10:33:32Z loke: hmm, wrong window.
2015-08-24T10:33:38Z H4ns: loke: you may be better of using a language where the complicated libraries that you want to use are actually maintained and tested.
2015-08-24T10:34:03Z loke: H4ns: Fair enough, but then I wouldn't be using CL, which would be less fun, so I would have less overall progress.
2015-08-24T10:34:22Z loke: But yeah, this is something that has to be taken into account when developing a large CL project.
2015-08-24T10:39:33Z Cymew: Actually, that's an interesting question for best practices. What is the best way to make sure you use code that is up to date and maintained? I would guess most people would just depend on quicklisp, right?
2015-08-24T10:39:34Z loke: I tend to think about it as me improving the quality of the library offerings. A less dedicated developer might have chosen to give out on CL altogether.
2015-08-24T10:40:11Z Cymew: Sounds like a Good Thing(tm) ineed.
2015-08-24T10:40:24Z Cymew: s/ineed/indeed/
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2015-08-24T10:42:18Z loke: Cymew: For QL, the anser is ostensibly yes, but there are definitely bugs in those projects. Aside from all my own bugs, I have fixed serious bugs in things like pooler, clouchdb, pzmq and zs3.
2015-08-24T10:42:46Z loke: And my changes to clouchdb was never merged so I forked it. The version in QL is still broken.
2015-08-24T10:43:37Z loke: Right now I'm considering writing my own replacement couchdb-library, since there are other issues with clouchdb that I don't really want to deal with.
2015-08-24T10:43:45Z loke: But for now it'll have to do.
2015-08-24T10:43:49Z Cymew: So depending on ql is not the whole solution, clearly.
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2015-08-24T10:44:38Z loke: Cymew: Well, there is nothing better. I mean if the maintainers don't want to maintain their library, you're stuck no matter what system you use. It's note like other packaging systems handle it any differently.
2015-08-24T10:44:41Z H4ns: i like quicklisp for quick experiments, but for actual production code, i always clone the required repositories because i have to fix bugs in dependencies too often, and quicklisp does not help with that.
2015-08-24T10:45:16Z loke: H4ns: I use QL for prod as well, but if I have to fork to fix a bug, I clone it separately.
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2015-08-24T10:46:39Z H4ns: i do that upfront so that i don't have to go through the hassle of finding the upstream when i need to fix bugs or make changes.  also, that way i'm isolated from changes in quicklisp's versions which i consider to be a good thing.
2015-08-24T10:46:48Z Cymew: It will be very interesting to see how Xach suggested additions to ql work out, with some kind of vote or rank system
2015-08-24T10:46:48Z loke: I used to run a forked Hunchentoot, but once it was fixed and the changes merged back, I switched back to the QL version.
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2015-08-24T10:47:28Z H4ns: in the end, though, this is just what open source development is about.  you always get to do some extra work yourself, but at least you _can_ do the work and are not at the mercy of your vendor.
2015-08-24T10:47:43Z loke: H4ns: Indeed.
2015-08-24T10:47:49Z Cymew: Exactly
2015-08-24T10:48:24Z loke: Also, fixing a bug in a Lisp library is trivial. Just edit the code and C-c C-c. When fixing a bug in an opensource Java library you often spend more time trying to build the damn thing than the actual fix.
2015-08-24T10:49:27Z loke: I have worked around problems in Java libraries by recompiling a single .class file and replacing it in the jar directly, because rebuilding the thing just wasn't humanly possible.
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2015-08-24T10:58:14Z Walex: loke: "Just  edit the code and C-c C-c.
2015-08-24T10:58:22Z Walex: loke: "Just  edit the code and C-c C-c. " is a recipe for later disaster
2015-08-24T10:58:35Z loke: Walex: What do you mean?
2015-08-24T10:58:39Z Walex: loke: however yes Java projects tend to be a bit overelaborate
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2015-08-24T10:59:36Z Walex: loke: I mean what about making the fix permanent which involves all the usual sw engineering steps? LISP is not that different from other systems in that respect.
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2015-08-24T11:00:15Z Cymew: s/LISP/lisp/
2015-08-24T11:00:22Z Cymew: oops
2015-08-24T11:00:26Z jackdaniel: but it allows you to prototype solution and engineer it afterwards
2015-08-24T11:00:27Z Cymew: s/LISP/Lisp/
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2015-08-24T11:00:51Z loke: Walex: Well of course. But when you are researching a problem, you can modify the library code just as easily as your own code (adding debug statements or whatnot). Once you've narrowed it down, you can fork make a fix, push it to the maintainer etc.
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2015-08-24T11:01:13Z loke: I quite often add log messages to library code even when I don't research a bug in the library, just becuase it
2015-08-24T11:01:19Z loke: it's easier that way.
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2015-08-24T11:01:46Z loke: And _that's_ the beauty of this stuff.
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2015-08-24T11:15:39Z dim: lisp makes monkey patching really easy too, which might or might not be a problem
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2015-08-24T11:20:16Z H4ns: lisp caters well for the single programmer who wants to get done and has no issue fixing things or putting up with their own mistakes.
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2015-08-24T11:43:36Z papachan: just wonder why sbcl always return values in Uppercase
2015-08-24T11:44:00Z jackdaniel: papachan: read about readtable-case and printer-case
2015-08-24T11:44:07Z papachan: ok
2015-08-24T11:44:13Z jackdaniel: it's part of the standard
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2015-08-24T11:46:24Z varjag: _Common_Lisp_Drill_ by T. Yuasa
2015-08-24T11:46:30Z varjag: any of you read that?
2015-08-24T11:46:37Z jackdaniel: *print-case* I mean
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2015-08-24T12:30:31Z Xach: myrkraverk: the problem is https://github.com/kanru/cl-mustache/blob/master/mustache.lisp#L574
2015-08-24T12:30:44Z Xach: myrkraverk: that must be a synonym-stream instead of just taking the value of *standard-output*.
2015-08-24T12:31:06Z myrkraverk: I see.
2015-08-24T12:31:21Z myrkraverk: Sort of, I don't have time to look at the code now.  Will do tomorrow.
2015-08-24T12:31:40Z Xach: myrkraverk: *standard-output*'s value could be anything during compilation/load. the runtime value is what a synonym-stream uses.
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2015-08-24T12:56:40Z dim: mmm, new error case for slime, wherein the first expression evaluated in the repl have it close, even (+ 1 2)
2015-08-24T12:56:40Z dim: I'm not sure what to do with that...
2015-08-24T12:57:37Z dim: ok works from another Emacs instance... time to reboot emacs maybe
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2015-08-24T13:24:52Z jackdaniel: what if we are just emacs intances of god? Each C-x C-c is death for that reason or the another, and old instances doesn't function as well as young ones :-)
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2015-08-24T13:25:24Z loke```: jackdaniel: The comparison is actually remarkably apt :-)
2015-08-24T13:25:44Z jackdaniel: apt?
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2015-08-24T13:26:19Z Cymew: Remarkably dnf do sound wrong.
2015-08-24T13:26:28Z loke```: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apt
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2015-08-24T13:26:44Z loke```: "suited to the purpose or occasion; appropriate:"
2015-08-24T13:26:52Z jackdaniel: oh, tought it's some acronym
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2015-08-24T13:27:39Z loke```: jackdaniel: You mean you never heard the word before?
2015-08-24T13:27:46Z loke```: I'm sure you'll hear it all the time now :-)
2015-08-24T13:27:51Z Cymew: I bet
2015-08-24T13:28:25Z jackdaniel: yeah, this word is new to me
2015-08-24T13:28:52Z jackdaniel: so it's basically same thing as "appropriate"?
2015-08-24T13:28:58Z jackdaniel: oh, you already mentioned this
2015-08-24T13:29:02Z loke```: Pretty close, yeah
2015-08-24T13:29:14Z dlowe: it can also mean "likely"
2015-08-24T13:29:28Z dlowe: oh, the link has all the definitions
2015-08-24T13:29:30Z dlowe: what a weird word
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2015-08-24T13:41:57Z oleo: hellooo
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2015-08-24T13:43:08Z jackdaniel: hi oleo
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2015-08-24T13:46:26Z oleo: hello jackdaniel !
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2015-08-24T14:29:07Z troydm: hey all! I've installed swank/slime using quicklisp, now how do i start it?
2015-08-24T14:29:29Z loke```: troydm: M-x slime
2015-08-24T14:29:43Z jackdaniel: (from emacs)
2015-08-24T14:29:44Z troydm: loke```: I don't use emacs, unfortunetly
2015-08-24T14:29:53Z warweasle: troydm: Open emacs. Then type M-x  and in the text area type slime <enter>
2015-08-24T14:29:53Z Xach: troydm: then swank/slime are of no use
2015-08-24T14:29:54Z loke```: troydm: Well, SLIME is for Emacs
2015-08-24T14:30:00Z H4ns: troydm: that is unfortunate because you can't use slime then.
2015-08-24T14:30:11Z troydm: loke```: so basicly I was looking for start-swank.lisp file in slime distribution from quicklisp
2015-08-24T14:30:14Z jackdaniel: troydm: you may try with slimv, which is vim counterpart
2015-08-24T14:30:15Z troydm: but nope
2015-08-24T14:30:29Z troydm: jackdaniel: I have it installed in vim
2015-08-24T14:30:34Z loke```: troydm: That manages the Lisp side. It provides an interface so that Emacs can connect to it
2015-08-24T14:30:55Z troydm: I know
2015-08-24T14:31:01Z troydm: I want to start swank server
2015-08-24T14:31:15Z troydm: basicly I'm using CIM to manage both CL and Quicklisp
2015-08-24T14:31:30Z loke```: (swank:create-server) i think
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2015-08-24T14:31:37Z jackdaniel: troydm: (swank:start-server …)
2015-08-24T14:31:46Z loke```: (swank:create-server :port value :dont-close t)
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2015-08-24T14:32:39Z troydm: ahh, found it
2015-08-24T14:32:42Z troydm: nvm, thx
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2015-08-24T14:33:40Z troydm: also is there a shortcut for this?
2015-08-24T14:33:43Z troydm: instead of
2015-08-24T14:33:46Z troydm: cl --load ~/.cim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/start-swank.lisp
2015-08-24T14:33:59Z Xach: What is cim?
2015-08-24T14:34:03Z troydm: something like cl --repl and thenk (ql:quickload :start-swank)
2015-08-24T14:34:08Z troydm: or something
2015-08-24T14:34:15Z loke```: sbcl --eval
2015-08-24T14:34:31Z loke```: What is "cl"? I don't know of any CL implementation that uses that.
2015-08-24T14:34:40Z troydm: Xach: https://github.com/KeenS/CIM
2015-08-24T14:34:44Z jackdaniel: cl is cl-launch wrapper around lisps
2015-08-24T14:34:50Z jackdaniel: more portable then sbcl --eval fwiw ;-)
2015-08-24T14:34:56Z loke```: jackdaniel: Seems pointless.
2015-08-24T14:35:20Z jackdaniel: loke```: not really, it works also with hashbang: #!/usr/bin/cl
2015-08-24T14:35:32Z troydm: loke```: it's a CIM wrapper around common lisp
2015-08-24T14:35:37Z loke```: jackdaniel: Well, I dump binaries when I need to :-)
2015-08-24T14:35:41Z jackdaniel: and you may specify entry point and number of things (like implementation)
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2015-08-24T14:36:08Z Xach: interesting
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2015-08-24T14:36:30Z jackdaniel: loke```: when you have 20 utilities, let's say "ls", "mv", "cp" and similar, then 20 x 100M (what is average size of dump image) is little big
2015-08-24T14:36:57Z Xach: jackdaniel: you can have a single binary handle all those utilities.
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2015-08-24T14:37:09Z Xach: and dispatch on the invocation name
2015-08-24T14:37:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: I know, I was answering loke
2015-08-24T14:37:26Z loke```: jackdaniel: I don't need n versions of the same binary :-)
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2015-08-24T14:38:07Z jackdaniel: anyway dispatching utility invokable via #! isn't imo pointless
2015-08-24T14:38:15Z troydm: hmm, I though CIM was kinda famous already, but looking at how even Xach didn't knew what it was I'm kinda curious
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2015-08-24T14:38:36Z troydm: it seems like a nice a way to handle whole Common Lisp/QuickLisp installation
2015-08-24T14:39:07Z jackdaniel: yeah, CIM looks like nice project
2015-08-24T14:40:53Z Xach: I am old and set in my ways
2015-08-24T14:41:20Z troydm: ahh, well all Common Lisp programmers say that
2015-08-24T14:41:37Z Xach: Actually, for a while I used a program from nikodemus called upstream, it was nice
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2015-08-24T14:43:42Z troydm: never heard of it
2015-08-24T14:44:25Z Xach: It is very old
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2015-08-24T14:49:46Z jackdaniel: $ curl -L https://raw.github.com/KeenS/CIM/master/scripts/cim_installer | /bin/sh <- this reminds me Xach 's presentation :)
2015-08-24T14:52:27Z Xach also uses windows
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2015-08-24T14:55:10Z Shinmera: For those interested, there's now a linux and windows version of my Ludum Dare game up. http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-33/?action=preview&uid=55159
2015-08-24T14:57:09Z aeth: wow that theme
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2015-08-24T14:57:25Z aeth: Of course that LD theme was going to win
2015-08-24T14:58:47Z oGMo: Shinmera: nice, did you do all the art?
2015-08-24T14:58:52Z jackdaniel: I like the watchtower
2015-08-24T15:01:05Z kristof is impressed by all the pretty graphics :o
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2015-08-24T15:02:52Z Shinmera: oGMo: It's the compo, so yes.
2015-08-24T15:03:14Z Shinmera: I didn't have time for music, but that would've probably turned out horribly anyway since I have no experience with composition whatsoever.
2015-08-24T15:03:27Z oGMo: "the compo"?
2015-08-24T15:03:48Z Shinmera: Ludum Dare's compo means you make everything in a single-person team from scratch within 48 hours.
2015-08-24T15:03:56Z Shinmera: source code, graphics, music, effects, everything.
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2015-08-24T15:04:28Z oGMo: oh, i thought ludum dare was doable by small teams as well, clearly i'm familiar with the details heh
2015-08-24T15:04:35Z Shinmera: It is. That's the jam.
2015-08-24T15:04:38Z oGMo: ah
2015-08-24T15:05:45Z Shinmera: The jam has generally much more lax rules. Might partake in that with a friend sometime.
2015-08-24T15:06:02Z kristof: There's so little code. Where is it all hiding?
2015-08-24T15:06:11Z kristof: In the packages you imported?
2015-08-24T15:06:24Z Shinmera: That's all the game code.
2015-08-24T15:06:32Z troydm: Shinmera: just a quick question, it's using cl-qt for graphics and rendering right?
2015-08-24T15:06:49Z Shinmera: kristof: the rest is in Qtools and in Flare, I guess.
2015-08-24T15:07:04Z oGMo: Shinmera: yeah i figure a team of 2-3 (code, art, sound/music or some similar combination) could do pretty well as long as you can start with some reasonable code base
2015-08-24T15:07:04Z Shinmera: I don't know what cl-qt is. It's using Qtools, which in turn uses CommonQt.
2015-08-24T15:07:11Z oGMo: Qt would be pretty reasonabl
2015-08-24T15:07:31Z Shinmera: oGMo: There's some really impressive single-person entries too though. Some people got their shit together.
2015-08-24T15:08:03Z Shinmera: I had a bad start since the engine was basically only half-finished when I started out, so the majority of my time was spent fixing that.
2015-08-24T15:08:21Z oGMo: looks like it turned out?
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2015-08-24T15:08:52Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what you're asking?
2015-08-24T15:09:08Z oGMo: you got a game done and it works, it appears
2015-08-24T15:09:16Z kristof: I think he means 'turned out alright, even without cl-qt'.
2015-08-24T15:09:28Z Shinmera: Ah, sure. It's just not as much of a complete game as I wanted it to be.
2015-08-24T15:09:42Z Shinmera: But hey, it was fun and I'll have a better go next time.
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2015-08-24T15:10:31Z Shinmera: Would be nice to see more Lisp participants.
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2015-08-24T15:10:57Z oGMo: yeah, imo that's awesome, i've been working on my first game for months and it's getting close but _so_ many different things to learn .. doing anything in 48 hours is impressive
2015-08-24T15:11:45Z Shinmera: It was a great experience to me. I like working a lot, and having an excuse to do nothing but that for 48 hours is sweet.
2015-08-24T15:11:45Z aeth: I would need to finish my engine before I entered, and I would probably need to write a few scripts to e.g. quickly generate sound and music.
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2015-08-24T15:12:11Z oGMo: Shinmera: cool
2015-08-24T15:13:26Z troydm: Shinmera: when picking up technology to write game, why didn't u chose SDL+OpenGL based and instead went with Qt?
2015-08-24T15:14:07Z Shinmera: troydm: Because I know Qt.
2015-08-24T15:14:08Z oGMo: sdl+gl is a lot more raw than Qt
2015-08-24T15:14:24Z oGMo: and that
2015-08-24T15:14:26Z Shinmera: I did use OpenGL as a back-end, but Qt's painter takes off a lot of the grunt work for me.
2015-08-24T15:14:35Z aeth: troydm: I don't think you can make anything meaningful in 48 hours with sdl2+opengl in CL unless you really knew what you were doing.
2015-08-24T15:14:37Z troydm: yeah, but well over 80% of 2D and 3D games are using SDL+GL
2015-08-24T15:15:00Z Shinmera: Appeal to popularity.
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2015-08-24T15:15:25Z aeth: troydm: SDL+GL or something on top of SDL+GL?
2015-08-24T15:15:37Z oGMo: troydm: right and that's great but sdl2+gl is like saying "well you have video and mouse drivers, why didn't you use them as a gui"
2015-08-24T15:15:37Z troydm: aeth: there is CLinch
2015-08-24T15:15:38Z aeth: e.g. SDL+GL doesn't give you physics. Any physics.
2015-08-24T15:16:29Z oGMo: sdl+gl is definitely the way to go if you write a fair amount of stuff on top, and even in CL we're working on that, but it's got a fair ways to go
2015-08-24T15:16:31Z troydm: it's just that I'm thinking of starting a game (mostly 4X turn based type of game)
2015-08-24T15:16:54Z Shinmera: Also: I know how to deploy a standalone application for Qt. Because I wrote that part myself already in Qtools. I have no idea how it would work, if at all, with the SDL bindings.
2015-08-24T15:16:55Z aeth: troydm: clinch mostly does the easy stuff. cl-bullet (same author) would be more useful
2015-08-24T15:16:56Z troydm: so I was thinking of using CLinch probably
2015-08-24T15:16:57Z oGMo: troydm: if you are familiar with them, they're there and work
2015-08-24T15:17:14Z troydm: aeth: I don't need physics in 4X game
2015-08-24T15:17:19Z aeth: I've probably implemented half of the non-library stuff clinch does
2015-08-24T15:17:32Z troydm: oGMo: I'm only familiar with OpenGL and basics of SDL
2015-08-24T15:17:40Z troydm: but never used CLinch
2015-08-24T15:17:52Z oGMo: troydm: sdl doesn't go beyond the basics, so you're probably good
2015-08-24T15:18:17Z oGMo: note there is #lispgames for anyone working on lisp and(/or) games
2015-08-24T15:18:28Z troydm: so I was thinking of using that
2015-08-24T15:18:34Z akkad: Are there any c compilers for lisp machines still?
2015-08-24T15:18:42Z oGMo: troydm: check it out, i've seen a number of the demos
2015-08-24T15:18:48Z H4ns: akkad: there are no lisp machines anymore
2015-08-24T15:19:03Z Shinmera: oGMo: #lispgames was too noisy for me so I left again :/
2015-08-24T15:19:23Z oGMo: Shinmera: ah ;/
2015-08-24T15:20:08Z akkad: Hens eBay says otherwise as does dks :)
2015-08-24T15:20:22Z H4ns: akkad: well, for those machines there is zeta-c
2015-08-24T15:21:43Z akkad: Symbolically c and zeta c got it
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2015-08-24T15:25:40Z akkad:  http://cliki.net/Vacietis
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2015-08-24T16:15:18Z luis: Adlai: around?
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2015-08-24T16:40:01Z Adlai: hello luis
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2015-08-24T16:40:28Z luis: Adlai: remember slime-next-connection?
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2015-08-24T16:40:37Z Adlai: yes
2015-08-24T16:40:44Z luis: Have you been using it?
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2015-08-24T16:41:14Z Adlai: not recently... i actually resorted a while back to using a separate emacs instance for each remote lisp :(
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2015-08-24T16:42:06Z luis: Well, I think it's moving in the wrong direction!
2015-08-24T16:42:39Z Adlai: you mean, next vs prev?
2015-08-24T16:43:14Z luis: Yes.
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2015-08-24T16:45:48Z luis: slime-next-connection moves to the slime connection that was opened earlier
2015-08-24T16:46:10Z luis: Should be the other way around, right?
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2015-08-24T16:47:58Z luis: Or to put it another way, slime-next-connection moves up in the slime-connection-list.
2015-08-24T16:48:07Z Adlai: hm. my "least surprise" answer is that if you open three connections (A, B, and C, in that order), you're now on C. 'next' should take you to A, and 'prev' should take you to B.
2015-08-24T16:48:09Z luis: And I expected it to move down.
2015-08-24T16:48:30Z luis: Exactly.
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2015-08-24T17:01:35Z luis: Adlai: OK, so I've pushed a change to swap them around then. Thanks. :)
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2015-08-24T17:09:09Z rpg: Is there some way to globally control the formatting of floats? The output equivalent of the default read format?
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2015-08-24T17:10:01Z Bicyclidine: i don't think so. usually float printing specifies things in the command
2015-08-24T17:10:52Z rpg: I have an s-expression tree that may contain floats, and an outside program I must write to that does not like the printrep of CL double floats (singles are fine).
2015-08-24T17:11:33Z rpg: Gross solution: replace all double-floats with singles and just use ordinary format. Alternative seems to involve reimplementing all the tree walking FORMAT does. Ugh.
2015-08-24T17:11:34Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: pprint-dispatch
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2015-08-24T17:11:42Z Bicyclidine: oh, i take that back
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2015-08-24T17:11:47Z Bicyclidine: clhs 22.1.3.1.3
2015-08-24T17:11:47Z specbot: Printing Floats: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm
2015-08-24T17:12:05Z Bicyclidine: if you change *r-d-f-f* to the kind of float you're printing there will be no exponent
2015-08-24T17:12:08Z Bicyclidine: how bizarre
2015-08-24T17:12:50Z rpg: Bicyclidine: Right.  What I want for the benefit of SCANF is to replace *all* exponent markers with "e", since scanf doesn't like "d" and "s"
2015-08-24T17:13:05Z Bicyclidine: oh, i see.
2015-08-24T17:13:12Z Bicyclidine: so you have multiple kinds of floats.
2015-08-24T17:13:29Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: or you can use your own format directive
2015-08-24T17:13:31Z rpg: Bicyclidine: yes, and a sink that only has one kind of numbers.
2015-08-24T17:13:49Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: but won't that format directive have to be a tree-walker?
2015-08-24T17:14:12Z fe[nl]ix: IIRC (format nil "~/pkg:custom-float-printer/" 3.45d0)
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2015-08-24T17:14:33Z Bicyclidine: rpg's problem is they have an arbitrary sexp
2015-08-24T17:14:34Z fe[nl]ix: if you print lists, you can use pprint-dispatch
2015-08-24T17:14:45Z Bicyclidine: yeah i guess pprint-dispatch would work
2015-08-24T17:15:10Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I think that would work.....
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2015-08-24T17:15:25Z Bicyclidine: (set-pprint-dispatch 'float printer) and then pprint the sexp
2015-08-24T17:15:43Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-controller/blob/master/upstream-file.lisp
2015-08-24T17:16:07Z rpg: Until now I was able to just do (dolist (foo lst) (format stream "~a" foo)), but the presence of doubles has broken that.
2015-08-24T17:16:38Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: and you can use pprint-dispatch with any type, including SATISFIES a.k.a. dependent types
2015-08-24T17:16:51Z rpg: Thanks.  I'll try that now.
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2015-08-24T17:17:14Z rpg: Love that thing from Xach, btw. I understand why fare introduced the sub-packages, but I really hate them.
2015-08-24T17:17:26Z rpg: s/them/the way they print/
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2015-08-24T17:23:20Z rpg remembers he didn't want to do pretty-printing because of the need to override all the stuff the "helpfully" elides parts of your tree that CL thinks are too big....
2015-08-24T17:24:31Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Is there any way to get pretty-print dispatch while still letting me get output that is suited for a stream (i.e., no elisions, no inserted line breaks, etc.)?
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2015-08-24T17:26:30Z fe[nl]ix: you need to set the relevant pprint variables to something suitable
2015-08-24T17:26:32Z fe[nl]ix: so I guess no
2015-08-24T17:27:04Z rpg: I *think* one can do it. but it's a bit of a PITA.'
2015-08-24T17:27:20Z fe[nl]ix: if you can, do blog about it ;)
2015-08-24T17:27:28Z fe[nl]ix: I'd be curious
2015-08-24T17:29:20Z PuercoPop: That cl-mustache code makes no sense to me. The author returns his reference (which should be a synonym stream) to stdout if *mustache-output* is eq to his alias and *mustahce-output* otherwise. Why not just write (defvar *mustache-output* t) and write to it directly? Am I missing something?
2015-08-24T17:30:39Z Bicyclidine: what's cl-mustache? implementation of facial hair in cl?
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2015-08-24T17:31:21Z PuercoPop: mustache is a html template standard (?) popular in JS
2015-08-24T17:32:25Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Uh-oh.  There's no way to override *print-right-margin* to have pretty-printing jam everything on one line.
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2015-08-24T17:32:34Z Bicyclidine: yeah, this code is kind of weird. why is standard output saved? is it set somewhere else?
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2015-08-24T17:33:26Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: This makes me cry: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_rig.htm
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2015-08-24T17:33:43Z PuercoPop: it is used on (%ouput) to return one of two strings and used throught to write to it. So (write-string <string> (%output))
2015-08-24T17:33:57Z rpg: I suppose I could just put in a magic number that's very, very high, but... ugh.
2015-08-24T17:34:20Z Bicyclidine: is there no way you can alter the source to only produce one kind of float?
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2015-08-24T17:36:01Z rpg: Bicyclidine: It would be very hard: it's the output of a planner that invokes multiple external functions to compute geometric things. There's no clear api where all the numbers flow into the program.
2015-08-24T17:36:25Z rpg: That's why I was saying I might have to tree-walk the tree and just replace all the doubles with singles.
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2015-08-24T17:36:51Z rpg: That would make stuff un-EQ that was EQ, so it gives me an unhappy feeling.
2015-08-24T17:37:02Z Bicyclidine: i'm just thinking that might be easier than forcing the print-things-for-human-readability gizmos into a print-things-for-computers gizmo
2015-08-24T17:37:17Z rpg: Setting *print-right-margin* to most-positive-fixnum should be pretty effective at forcing everything on one line....
2015-08-24T17:37:46Z Bicyclidine: is there any circularity?
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2015-08-24T17:39:49Z Bicyclidine: if not it's just (defun refloat (tree) (typecase tree (cons (cons (refloat (car tree)) (refloat (cdr tree)))) ... (float (float tree 0d0)) (t tree))) which isn't too bad if you don't need eqlity
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2015-08-24T17:40:08Z Bicyclidine: eqity? sounds like a hip financial startup
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2015-08-24T18:10:12Z PuercoPop: The hoops that cl-mustache code jumped through was for backwards compatibility. Nice to see a maintainer care for its users even when there a probably few. Anyhow PR sent.
2015-08-24T18:10:23Z rpg: Bicyclidine: no no-circularity...
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2015-08-24T18:11:14Z rpg: Does anyone know how to force ~G to always print at least one digit after the decimal point? I'd like to use it, but am having trouble persuading it to give me something that scanf will read.
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2015-08-24T18:11:34Z rpg: Can just use ~E, but for smaller numbers, it's less readable.
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2015-08-24T18:50:29Z pjb: H4ns: better use a bad CL library that you can easily patch.  But otherwise, the message I'd see there is that you'd better write your own libraries :-)
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2015-08-24T20:15:50Z francogrex: I like to play with optimizations and speed comparisons... an example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154215
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2015-08-24T20:30:11Z jfe: if ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 2 3) works, why doesn’t ((symbol-function ‘+) 2 3) work?
2015-08-24T20:31:01Z jfe: i seem to be missing some detail about functions in CL that doesn’t exist in scheme.
2015-08-24T20:31:05Z PuercoPop: funcall
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2015-08-24T20:31:16Z PuercoPop: (funcall (function +) 2 3)
2015-08-24T20:32:11Z PuercoPop: Symbols in function position are looked up in the function 'namespace'.
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2015-08-24T20:33:26Z jfe: so if (symbol-function ‘+) => #’+, where’s the hitch?
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2015-08-24T20:34:40Z Shinmera: Evaluation semantics.
2015-08-24T20:34:44Z dlowe: (flet ((+ (&rest terms) ...)) (funcall #'+ 2 3)) calls the local version, not (symbol-function '+)
2015-08-24T20:37:05Z PuercoPop: Because symbol-function returns the function object. You lookup symbols in in the function namespace not objects
2015-08-24T20:37:20Z PuercoPop: to call a function object you use funcall
2015-08-24T20:39:10Z dlowe: (funcall '+ 2 3) will do the lookup to symbol-function itself
2015-08-24T20:39:33Z dlowe: so they are different, though in most practical instances they'll have the same effect
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2015-08-24T21:20:39Z rpg: somewhat unimportant question: does anyone know how (if) SLIME sets *pprint-right-margin*? When I pprint in a SLIME repl, I get \ inappropriately short lines.
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2015-08-24T22:11:11Z cheryllium: I have a problem with ql:quickload lispbuilder-sdl-mixer on windows 8, it says:
2015-08-24T22:11:23Z cheryllium: Error opening shared object "SDL.dll":
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2015-08-24T22:11:31Z cheryllium: %1 is not a valid Win32 application.
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2015-08-24T22:12:46Z Shinmera: Mismatch between 64x and 32x then.
2015-08-24T22:13:04Z Shinmera: The DLL and your implementation's architecture don't match up.
2015-08-24T22:13:31Z cheryllium: Ok thanks, I will try with other DLL
2015-08-24T22:14:16Z Shinmera: Could also be a dependant dll somewhere down the line. Error reporting on that is not exactly accurate and your PATH setup is crucial for windows to find the right ones.
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2015-08-24T22:28:33Z cheryllium: That was indeed the problem, it works now. Thank you for your help!
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2015-08-25T00:24:31Z Adlai: luis: glad to have been of consultational assistance!
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2015-08-25T01:01:59Z axion: is there a way to retrieve all defined super-classes of a class?
2015-08-25T01:02:53Z pillton: mop class-direct-superclasses
2015-08-25T01:02:53Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html
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2015-08-25T01:59:05Z pillton: Does any one know of a library which automatically inserts lexical bindings to a class' slots when defining methods specialized to that class?
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2015-08-25T01:59:21Z pillton: It doesn't have to be CLOS, something similar would suffice.
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2015-08-25T02:02:40Z Xach: pillton: like anaphoric slot access?
2015-08-25T02:03:43Z pillton: Yeah I guess. I have too much state and I'm sick of typing LET.
2015-08-25T02:03:47Z Xach: pillton: gendl's object system has syntax that is kind of like that. i don't know anything about flavors, but i think it was at least partly inspired by flavors.
2015-08-25T02:04:18Z Xach: method definitions go in the object definition, and it automatically binds SELF, and (the foo) refers to the FOO slot of self implicitly. but it's more complicated than just that.
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2015-08-25T02:04:40Z Xach: oops. it's definitely not "something similar" to clos.
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2015-08-25T02:05:50Z gendl: Gendl, ICAD, and Flavors all trace back to Smalltalk.
2015-08-25T02:06:23Z gendl: Flavors was directly inspired by Smalltalk, and ICAD was implemented on top of Flavors.
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2015-08-25T02:06:31Z pillton: Xach: Thanks. I will check it out.
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2015-08-25T02:08:03Z gendl: CLOS provides a superset of Flavors/Smalltalk, so Gendl especially exposes that subset. But full CLOS is still there, under the (fairly thin) hood.
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2015-08-25T02:12:29Z pillton: This is like Cells.
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2015-08-25T02:13:20Z Xach: CLOS doesn't particular seem to provide a superset of flavors/smalltalk to me. Seems like a totally different set.
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2015-08-25T02:13:29Z Xach: particularly, rather
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2015-08-25T02:14:29Z gendl: Flavors is like a CLOS where the methods discriminate on the type of only the first argument.
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2015-08-25T02:15:09Z Zhivago: Given currying, that's all you need.
2015-08-25T02:15:34Z Zhivago: I kind of suspect that multimethods are a workaround for a lack of currying support.
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2015-08-25T02:15:54Z gendl: pillton: one obvious difference from cells is that lazy evaluation is the default in Gendl while eager evaluation is default in Cells (as far as I understand).
2015-08-25T02:16:16Z pillton: gendl: Yep.
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2015-08-25T02:18:29Z pillton: It is nice that it differentiates between input and computed slots.
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2015-08-25T02:20:57Z loke: Hello Pillton
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2015-08-25T02:21:05Z loke: and the rest
2015-08-25T02:21:20Z pillton: G'day Loke.
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2015-08-25T03:27:18Z rritoch: I still need to make a release, but I was able to get jrelisp (a fork of ABCL) to pass all of the "trunk" ansi-tests "No tests failed."
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2015-08-25T03:42:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm restarting my lisp a lot whenever I use SDL2, lispbuilder, or anything else that forms a window. I'll start a program, somehow break the current window by choosing an accept or continue from the debugger, and then I have to kill my lisp to clean that broken blank window up. Does anyone have similar problems? I've been using SBCL on windows. It's not a huge issue, but I'd prefer not to have to restart if possible
2015-08-25T03:42:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: . It makes the image system feel wasted. It's also annoying.
2015-08-25T03:42:54Z p_nathan: Petit_Dejeuner: check your threads. I'd betcha that you have a thread hanging out
2015-08-25T03:43:18Z pillton: Don't use a threaded lisp.
2015-08-25T03:43:27Z p_nathan: O.o
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2015-08-25T03:44:59Z resttime: Petit_Dejeuner: I think I've had similar problems regarding that on windows with allegro5
2015-08-25T03:45:13Z pillton: p_nathan: GUIs only really like being updated from the main thread.
2015-08-25T03:45:45Z p_nathan: ah, that. that's certainly true for W32 - don't know about others offhand.
2015-08-25T03:46:20Z pillton: On OSX the main thread is the only thread in which you can run the GUI event loop.
2015-08-25T03:47:00Z |3b|: osx is the only one that really cares (at least i open windows from random threads on windows and X with no problems)
2015-08-25T03:47:00Z pillton: I'm not sure about X11 based toolkits though.
2015-08-25T03:48:15Z |3b|: only interacting with it from the same thread that created it tends to simplify things though
2015-08-25T03:48:26Z |3b|: as far as the original problem, look into unwind-protect
2015-08-25T03:48:35Z ynniv: |3b|: I don’t think that’s kosher, even if it usually works
2015-08-25T03:48:37Z |3b|: and/or continue restarts
2015-08-25T03:48:40Z ynniv: that’s the problem with threading
2015-08-25T03:48:51Z resttime: oh yeah, unwind-protect and stuff helped i think
2015-08-25T03:49:07Z p_nathan: I do know that Win32 used to be documented to only do GUIs from the main thread.
2015-08-25T03:49:11Z resttime: lol i think you told me that too |3b|
2015-08-25T03:49:44Z resttime: like fairly long time ago when i encountered something like that
2015-08-25T03:49:44Z p_nathan: Although, my mind might be muddled and it might only be "one and only one thread". It's been over a decade. :)
2015-08-25T03:50:00Z pillton: Petit_Dejeuner: You should look in to what happens to the main event loop when an error is signalled.
2015-08-25T03:50:45Z pillton: This is why I hate event loops. You can only have one.
2015-08-25T03:51:38Z |3b|: p_nathan: just poking at MSDN for a few seconds finds GetDC docs saying note that the handle to the DC can only be used by a single thread at any one time", suggesting you could use multiple DCs form separate threads
2015-08-25T03:52:45Z |3b|: and similarly for opengl things, you need to either have multiple contexts or be very very careful to do drawing from multiple threads
2015-08-25T03:53:20Z p_nathan: |3b|: interesting. I suppose in that far-off day when I am doing w32 gui development, that might matter a lot. :D
2015-08-25T03:53:37Z |3b|: (OSX on the other hand actively checks which thread you call certain things from and errors if it doesn't like it)
2015-08-25T03:55:08Z |3b|: for deployment i'd probably try to keep GUI stuff in main thread just to simplify things, and because less common behavior tends to get less testing so trigger more bugs :/ for development i just start a new thread every time i create a window (usually indirectly with C-c C-c or C-M-x or C-x C-e or whatever)
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2015-08-25T03:56:15Z |3b| makes a point of trying to put as many continue restarts as possible in my event loop, and trying to clean up windows with unwind-protect though, since restarting all the time is annoying
2015-08-25T03:57:33Z pillton: I write automated tests for the controller so it does the right when responding to events. Then I debug the graphical part by restarting.
2015-08-25T03:57:46Z pillton: s/right/right thing/
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2015-08-25T03:59:37Z |3b| makes random changes to graphical stuff while the program is running, which tends to lead to errors :)
2015-08-25T04:00:28Z pjb: minion: memo for rpg: set *swank-bindings* in ~/.swank.lisp
2015-08-25T04:00:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-25T04:07:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hm, I can't get anything to break right now. Next time I'll just try to kill the thread and if that doesn't work I'll dive deeper into the event-loop code. If I give up I'll try a lisp without threads.
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2015-08-25T05:07:19Z p_nathan: so what's the lastest in mature unit test libraries in CL? I've used 5am for a while, but I know that there's been work on that front since the last time I surveyed libraries.
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2015-08-25T17:50:51Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/quarterly/volume2.html
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2015-08-25T19:06:38Z Fare: can someone explain to me where the roswell documentation is?
2015-08-25T19:06:45Z Fare: and what makes it better than cl-launch?
2015-08-25T19:07:29Z jackdaniel doesn't know
2015-08-25T19:07:59Z jackdaniel: but it's on the website, it *must* be true ;-)
2015-08-25T19:08:20Z Fare: jackdaniel, no ECL for windows?
2015-08-25T19:08:41Z jackdaniel: Fare: it's quarterly (official release comes after testing)
2015-08-25T19:09:00Z Shinmera: Fare: I can't really find any docs in the repo, so I doubt anything more comprehensive than the examples and README.md exist.
2015-08-25T19:09:14Z Shinmera: Not really surprised by the lack of docs tbqh.
2015-08-25T19:09:41Z jackdaniel: Fare: now release candidate is published (ik, volume contains announcment, but it will be published separately)
2015-08-25T19:10:31Z jackdaniel: afk
2015-08-25T19:12:13Z aeth: I'm confused by CLIM. Would CLIM be used to host an OpenGL window instead of SDL, or would CLIM be used inside of OpenGL to provide a user interface, or both?
2015-08-25T19:13:53Z kristof: Fare: Did you email the author?
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2015-08-25T19:16:28Z Fare: kristof, I opened an issue on github.
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2015-08-25T19:18:43Z aeth: Hmm, it looks like CLIM could replace SDL in Lisp games if it were extended to support joysticks and controllers, as well as audio.
2015-08-25T19:18:54Z dlowe: a minor detail :)
2015-08-25T19:19:10Z dlowe: you know, plus GL support
2015-08-25T19:19:14Z aeth: CLIM would also need to be able to have OpenGL within its windows, yes.
2015-08-25T19:19:45Z aeth: And merely having OpenGL is probably insufficient, since it would only be more powerful than SDL if it also provided UI functionality within the GL instance, for e.g. menus
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2015-08-25T19:21:43Z oGMo: that's a bit like saying X11 could replace your video driver
2015-08-25T19:22:24Z oGMo: it'd probably be useful to have an SDL backend for CLIM and get GL that way, and you'd get other input too
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2015-08-25T19:24:39Z aeth: oGMo: why not both? Implement a modern game-oriented CLIM using SDL as a backend, then create a new Linux backend for the CLIM, and then when all the SDL backends are replaced, get rid of the C-based SDL library as a dependency altogether?
2015-08-25T19:25:03Z aeth: Start top down, and only later replace the lower parts so that there's something working at each step.
2015-08-25T19:25:35Z oGMo: and then after months of work you don't have a game or something anyone wants to use
2015-08-25T19:25:50Z aeth: Months?
2015-08-25T19:25:52Z oGMo: but, go get busy
2015-08-25T19:26:26Z aeth: Unix didn't take over the world in months, it won't be replaced in months.
2015-08-25T19:26:28Z oGMo: aeth: you're right, it would extend almost certainly into years of wasted effort reinventing things
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2015-08-25T19:28:26Z dlowe: sadly, as nice as lisp is, the world is not ready to rewrite all the things without significantly more incentive
2015-08-25T19:28:57Z dlowe: unless it's to support a new "platform"
2015-08-25T19:28:59Z aeth: oGMo: It's not wasted if it takes something that's written in C and replaces it with something marginally better in CL. At the very least you get (1) a more unified way to handle data and configuration files through s-expressions and (2) garbage collection, which eliminates a whole class of bugs from bad programming
2015-08-25T19:29:24Z oGMo: yes, in fact, it is
2015-08-25T19:29:27Z aeth: and (3) if someone does wind up putting Lisp on a FPGA, it then means the only thing they're missing is the GL driver
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2015-08-25T19:29:36Z oGMo: but feel free to do so
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2015-08-25T19:30:28Z aeth: Oh, I forgot 0. (0) It replaces hundreds of thousands of lines of code with tens of thousands (if not an even more favorable ratio)
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2015-08-25T19:31:07Z dlowe: I've found the ratio to be closer to 1/3rd
2015-08-25T19:31:43Z aeth: okay, then I was in roughly the correct order of magnitude.
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2015-08-25T19:34:12Z resttime: how about working on a gui library for games based off of clim?
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2015-08-25T19:34:44Z resttime: like it will handle menus and such
2015-08-25T19:34:52Z oGMo: resttime: you could, but realistically you'd want something much simpler and easier to control
2015-08-25T19:35:40Z oGMo: e.g., most games just want a few basic widgets and an easy way to throw a sprite9 behind them
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2015-08-25T19:36:30Z dwchandler: CommonQT?
2015-08-25T19:36:39Z dwchandler ducks
2015-08-25T19:36:56Z oGMo: Qt definitely works for a game, Shinmera just implemented one thta looked pretty neat for ludum dare
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2015-08-25T19:38:40Z aeth: oGMo: What you need is a purposefully optional abstraction system for things like GUIs so that you can just rapidly code with the fast, trivial menu stuff, but then later on customize it in more detail when you inevitably run into issues with the model used on the very-high-level GUI abstraction.
2015-08-25T19:39:01Z aeth: I don't think you can do that easily without having the UI be Lisp all the way down.
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2015-08-25T19:51:21Z optikalmouse: you could always use clojurescript and some JS game engine? /me ducks
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2015-08-25T20:36:00Z jasom: I always forget, are values set with defparameter available at macroexpand time in the same file?
2015-08-25T20:36:50Z jasom: apparently not
2015-08-25T20:37:47Z dlowe: you can wrap your defparameter in an eval-when form
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2015-08-25T20:55:31Z jasom: yeah
2015-08-25T20:55:34Z jasom: I was wondering if I had to
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2015-08-25T21:03:48Z Fare: jasom: eval-when
2015-08-25T21:04:01Z Fare: jasom: see my guide to eval-when
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2015-08-25T21:04:53Z dwchandler: entitled "eval-WIN!"
2015-08-25T21:05:24Z Fare: more like eval-lose
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2015-08-25T21:05:46Z dwchandler: heh
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2015-08-25T21:10:25Z jasom: Fare: is it on fare.tunes.org?  I can't find it
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2015-08-25T21:59:45Z yottabyte: hey guys, is common lisp like compiled? how does it work? is there some interpreter?
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2015-08-25T22:00:36Z dwchandler: yottabyte: it's both compiled and interpreted :)
2015-08-25T22:00:40Z Xach: yottabyte: it's usually compiled and sometimes interpreted
2015-08-25T22:01:00Z yottabyte: oh cool
2015-08-25T22:01:12Z yottabyte: what's an operating system that is all written in lisp?
2015-08-25T22:01:39Z Adlai: yottabyte: Genera, the OS that ran on Symbolics Lisp Machines
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2015-08-25T22:03:01Z yottabyte: this is like super hacker stuff
2015-08-25T22:03:12Z yottabyte: I know java o.o
2015-08-25T22:03:26Z jasom: minion: tell yottabyte about pcl
2015-08-25T22:03:26Z minion: yottabyte: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-08-25T22:07:45Z yottabyte: ty jasom
2015-08-25T22:07:51Z yottabyte: do people use lisp in the professional world
2015-08-25T22:07:54Z yottabyte: to make applications and stuff
2015-08-25T22:07:58Z yottabyte: is it fast
2015-08-25T22:08:14Z dwchandler: yes, and yes
2015-08-25T22:08:25Z yottabyte: so I can make the big $
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2015-08-25T22:08:51Z dwchandler: it's not so easy to find lisp jobs
2015-08-25T22:08:51Z jasom: yottabyte: well making big $ is non-trivial regardless of your choice of language (depending on your definition of big)
2015-08-25T22:09:04Z yottabyte: oh.. :(
2015-08-25T22:09:24Z jasom: it will be easier to make medium $ with not lisp, and easier to make high-medium by becoming a banker
2015-08-25T22:11:48Z yottabyte: do I have to start as a bank teller or something? that sounds very mundane
2015-08-25T22:12:09Z jasom: yottabyte: I was more thinking go to an Ivy League school and intern at a trading company
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2015-08-25T22:13:46Z dwchandler: or if you want to stay with coding, learn lisp anyway, even if you can't find a job in it
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2015-08-25T22:14:34Z Shinmera: Or don't. Who are we to tell you what to do.
2015-08-25T22:14:54Z jasom: yottabyte: I don't think anybody in this channel regrets learning lisp, but I could be wrong.
2015-08-25T22:15:37Z Shinmera: Everything else has become a pain in comparison, so I regret it in that regard.
2015-08-25T22:15:48Z Oladon was just about to say that
2015-08-25T22:16:00Z Oladon: It ruined me for just about every other language.
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2015-08-25T22:17:58Z luis: Shinmera: I went to a job interview a while back and had to code Java on the whiteboard. So painful! :)
2015-08-25T22:18:16Z Oladon: luis: how many markers did you go through?
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2015-08-25T22:19:03Z jasom: I would have to *really* want the job to write Java on the whiteboard.
2015-08-25T22:19:32Z Oladon: I don't think any job could entice me to do that
2015-08-25T22:20:03Z Fare: jasom: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
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2015-08-25T22:20:30Z jasom: Oladon: A job in my hometown where I would write lisp for a living would entice me to do that, but I don't think they would ask me to do that for such a job, so catch-22
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2015-08-25T22:20:47Z luis: jasom: heh, I ended up not taking it, no. :)
2015-08-25T22:20:49Z Oladon: jasom: Yeah, that was my line of reasoning as well :P
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2015-08-25T22:22:09Z jasom: Fare: oh, thanks for that, but what I want is a cheat-sheet with a list of all top-level forms that make things available in the compilation environment
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2015-08-25T22:28:04Z Fare: jasom: eval-when, defmacro
2015-08-25T22:28:09Z Fare: that's about all.
2015-08-25T22:28:17Z Fare: oh yes, in-package
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2015-08-25T22:29:49Z Fare: some forms may or may not affect the compilation environment, such as type/existence/declaration information available in defun, defvar, defgeneric, etc. — you can't rely on it portably either way, and actual values are most probably not available.
2015-08-25T22:30:45Z pillton: Fare: I'm pretty sure it is wrong to say that macro expansion occurs second.
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2015-08-25T22:31:04Z pillton: Fare: Occurs second when compiling.
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2015-08-25T22:32:08Z pillton: Fare: It is only minimal compilation that specifies that macros are expanded at compile time.
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2015-08-25T22:33:04Z Fare: if you're not compiling at all, then there's no compilation environment to worry about — though your implementation might compile anyway, or not.
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2015-08-25T22:59:41Z pjb: jackdaniel: quaterly url above is 404.
2015-08-25T23:00:00Z pjb: Oh, it's quaRterly, sorry.
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2015-08-25T23:20:25Z pillton: Fare: I think eval-when would become a lot clearer if :load-toplevel was changed to something like :load-fasl-toplevel or :fasl-toplevel.
2015-08-25T23:21:36Z pillton: Fare: I only brought up the macro expansion as I was reading the link above. You have a paragraph starting with "Macro expansion-time happens second, ..."
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2015-08-25T23:52:15Z jfe: is there a way to hide the slots of superclasses in a derived class? e.g. suppose i create a class rect that has width and height slots, and then i create a square class that derives from rect, but i only want to allow users to specify a single dimension. is there a way to do it?
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2015-08-25T23:53:47Z Adlai: jfe: package system and/or assertions
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2015-08-25T23:59:02Z pillton: jfe: You should create a function make-square to do hide how square is implemented.
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2015-08-26T00:10:54Z jfe: pillton: sure, but then i have to construct squares and rectangles differently.
2015-08-26T00:11:05Z jfe: is it common to create make-* functions for classes?
2015-08-26T00:11:24Z pillton: I would say yes.
2015-08-26T00:11:25Z Xach: jfe: how did you picture having users specifying the single dimension?
2015-08-26T00:12:07Z jfe: Xach: (make-instance ‘square :dimension 5) ;; sets the underlying rectangle’s width and height slots to 5
2015-08-26T00:12:10Z pillton: jfe: The other alternative is to have make-rectangle identify that it is a square and make the square object.
2015-08-26T00:13:02Z jfe: (‘dimension’ is kind of a bad name but bear with me :)
2015-08-26T00:14:02Z Xach: jfe: what form do you want to make the "allow" part take? an error if :height and :width are given to a square?
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2015-08-26T00:15:19Z |3b| votes make SQUARE inherit from CIRCLE instead and add a sides or corners slot in addition to radius :p
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2015-08-26T00:16:00Z jfe: Xach: either that, or make it so that setting either one sets them both, in which case setting both to different values would result in an error. but that seems more complicated.
2015-08-26T00:16:15Z pillton: Why should your users know that a square object is implemented using CLOS?
2015-08-26T00:17:03Z pillton: Sonya Keene's book Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp advocates using make-* functions.
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2015-08-26T00:18:32Z PuercoPop: jfe: You could use (defun make-square (side-length)) for the API
2015-08-26T00:20:37Z jfe: pillton: that seems to be the best option, i agree.
2015-08-26T00:20:49Z Xach: jfe: you could add argument or slot checking in an initialize-instance :before method.
2015-08-26T00:21:05Z Xach: well, argument checking :before, slot checking :after, maybe...or some other variation.
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2015-08-26T00:33:21Z jfe: i played around with it a bit and Adlai’s suggestion is also good. i realized i don’t actually have to expose the class names from the package at all, so i can force users to use the make-* functions, which is good.
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2015-08-26T00:34:02Z pillton: You need it for typep.
2015-08-26T00:34:19Z jfe: yikes. there goes that idea :-/
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2015-08-26T00:34:28Z pillton: Or you provide a squarep predicate.
2015-08-26T00:34:47Z pillton: But you might have '(or square circle) as a type.
2015-08-26T00:35:26Z pillton: You can spend/waste a lot of time on nouns and their associations.
2015-08-26T00:35:54Z pillton: Especially the associations.
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2015-08-26T00:36:14Z Adlai: clhs satisfies
2015-08-26T00:36:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm
2015-08-26T00:36:21Z Adlai: clhs and
2015-08-26T00:36:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_and.htm
2015-08-26T00:36:27Z Adlai fails to see the problem
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2015-08-26T00:36:48Z pillton: In my opinion good design minimises connections.
2015-08-26T00:37:02Z Adlai: in my opinion, good design comes after mature optimization
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2015-08-26T00:37:40Z pillton: What is "mature optimization"?
2015-08-26T00:37:47Z Bike: jfe: you could do (deftype exported-symbol () 'actual-class-name).
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2015-08-26T00:41:36Z Adlai: pillton: the rectangular opposite of (sqrt *evil*)
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2015-08-26T00:43:20Z pillton: That doesn't help me understand you.
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2015-08-26T00:45:36Z Adlai: "premature optimization is the root of all evil" - knuth
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2015-08-26T00:46:07Z Adlai: 'rectangular' was an apparently overly joke about coordinate systems
2015-08-26T00:46:20Z Adlai: and 'subtle' was apparently an overly subtle elision
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2015-08-26T00:47:58Z jfe: Bike: that works really well, good idea.
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2015-08-26T00:49:17Z jfe: unfortunately it means i need to define internal-rectangle and internal-square, but i guess that’s not so bad.
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2015-08-26T00:51:38Z phf: wouldn't you also have to define custom accessors for siblings?
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2015-08-26T00:53:50Z Xach: jfe: one option is to find better users!
2015-08-26T00:54:08Z jfe: phf: not sure what you mean, but if i understand correctly, i don’t think so. even if the class name is internal-rectangle, i can make the accessor name rectangle-width.
2015-08-26T00:55:16Z jfe: Xach: hah, i guess. but i agree with scott meyers when he said a good interface should be easy to use correctly and hard to use incorrectly.
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2015-08-26T00:56:56Z phf: jfe: yes, that's what i mean, just a lot of additional definitions, since you'll have to do setf'ers too
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2015-08-26T00:57:50Z jfe: phf: i think defclass takes care of all that.
2015-08-26T00:58:06Z phf: actually no i'm being dense, you can just do (defmethod width (square) (error))
2015-08-26T00:59:05Z |3b|: squarep doesn't help specialize methods on squares
2015-08-26T00:59:33Z Bike: i really should have thought of that
2015-08-26T00:59:39Z |3b| thinks if it doesn't have a width and height it isn't a rectangle anymore
2015-08-26T00:59:57Z |3b|: width and height constrained to be the same might be
2015-08-26T01:00:45Z phf: yeah once you start trying to leak so many abstraction holes probably means your abstraction is poor
2015-08-26T01:00:48Z |3b|: (but if you didn't export the classes an nobody can make methods on them, it doesn't really matter what the class hierarchy is, and you might as well just make them all separate)
2015-08-26T01:00:53Z phf: *plug
2015-08-26T01:01:30Z |3b|: but if something is RECTANGLEP, width should work
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2015-08-26T02:56:42Z pjb: pillton: make-* functions prevent the factory pattern. (make-instance factory).
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2015-08-26T03:00:46Z pillton: I'm not sure I follow. How is the name of a class different to the name of a function?
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2015-08-26T03:05:52Z pjb: pillton: well, of course, in lisp you can always use funcall instead of make-instance :-)
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2015-08-26T04:24:01Z kyfho: learning lisp seems hard
2015-08-26T04:24:19Z kyfho: does doug hoyt ever come here?
2015-08-26T04:24:33Z kyfho: I wanted to ask why antiweb is partly perl?
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2015-08-26T04:25:07Z aeth: kyfho: There's http://l1sp.org/html/ and you can search it on duckduckgo with !l1sp
2015-08-26T04:25:22Z aeth: One of the hard things about Common Lisp is that it's huge, but !l1sp is very useful
2015-08-26T04:25:45Z aeth: I probably search on DuckDuckGo more than Google now if you count !l1sp
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2015-08-26T04:27:25Z aeth: What's great about l1sp is that it has some of the common libraries, too, not just the Hyperspec
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2015-08-26T05:53:19Z aeth: In case anyone missed this, it has been going around the Lisp social media. http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/
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2015-08-26T05:54:45Z jackdaniel: and if anyone missed this, it lies steadily as static html: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/quarterly/volume2.html (: good morning
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2015-08-26T05:57:10Z fe[nl]ix: 'morning jackdaniel
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2015-08-26T05:57:57Z aeth: I prefer websites with that style rather than ones where I have to enable JavaScript to see anything like the link I gave.
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2015-08-26T05:59:38Z aeth: There are two things I don't like about that kind of website style, though: (1) they don't set a max width (most people have widescreen if they're not on mobile) and (2) it doesn't look like it defines a sans serif font, and most browsers foolishly use sans serif for their default font, so by default sites like that look out of place because most sites use sans serif these days.
2015-08-26T06:00:22Z aeth: The only reason I keep my browser windowed (at 1280 now because many new sites don't like my old 1024 width, apparently forgetting the 1024x768 days) is because of sites that don't set a max width
2015-08-26T06:00:58Z aeth: s/foolishly use sans serif/foolishly do not use sans serif/
2015-08-26T06:01:54Z jackdaniel: aeth: you might be interested in using custom default css
2015-08-26T06:02:02Z jackdaniel: some browsers allow such a thing
2015-08-26T06:02:03Z H4ns: i would not mind the design if the content wasn't as wrong as it is :)
2015-08-26T06:02:32Z jackdaniel: but generally I agree, that some style might be handy
2015-08-26T06:02:37Z jackdaniel: H4ns: could you elaborate?
2015-08-26T06:03:05Z aeth: jackdaniel: There's over 80 lines of CSS and it still fails the two points I gave. Normally sites that fail this have 0 lines of CSS. :-)
2015-08-26T06:03:15Z H4ns: i mean, suggesting that plump is a good replacement for cxml just shows that the author does not actually know xml.  and suggesting cl-dbi should be the only database library without even mentioning postmodern is, like, well, yeah
2015-08-26T06:03:40Z H4ns: it might be that there is a new generation of lispers that needs this kind of advice, and i'm just old.
2015-08-26T06:03:45Z jackdaniel: H4ns: oh, I tought you mean that I'm wrong in one of essays in ECL Quarterly :p
2015-08-26T06:04:04Z jackdaniel: I disagree that cl-launch is obsolete on the other hand – I really like it and use it extensively
2015-08-26T06:04:06Z H4ns: ah, sorry.  i was referring to that "state of the ecosystem" article
2015-08-26T06:04:13Z jackdaniel: yeah, I read it from the context :)
2015-08-26T06:05:24Z aeth: H4ns: oh wow I didn't even notice it didn't suggest postmodern. What I did notice, because I do graphics programing, is that it didn't suggest anything in a layer of abstraction between CEPL (very abstract) and cl-opengl/cl-sdl2 (basically just wrappers over foreign libraries)
2015-08-26T06:06:24Z H4ns: aeth: i think it is a collection of personal favorites much more than a description of the "state of the ecosystem".
2015-08-26T06:06:25Z aeth: The page could at least recommend sdl2kit and glkit or something.
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2015-08-26T06:07:07Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I agree with your opinion on that
2015-08-26T06:07:08Z aeth: (I use neither sdl2kit or glkit, but I recognize that cl-opengl and cl-sdl2 are too low level. You're basically coding C in CL syntax when you use them.)
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2015-08-26T06:09:38Z aeth: H4ns: you're right, it even ignores slimv for vim
2015-08-26T06:10:42Z jackdaniel: btw https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10121248 (HN thread)
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2015-08-26T06:11:03Z aeth: and the HN thread for the other link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10119730
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2015-08-26T06:15:22Z fe[nl]ix: yeah, there are some serious issues with that list
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2015-08-26T06:18:01Z aeth: It's missing some very popular libraries that maybe categories could've been invented to include. e.g. the #1 downloaded one, alexandria
2015-08-26T06:18:08Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: date-based not data-based
2015-08-26T06:18:28Z jackdaniel: oh, a missing typo
2015-08-26T06:18:29Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-26T06:19:16Z jackdaniel: fixed :)
2015-08-26T06:19:18Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: an advice for future development, talk to drmeister and switch the GC to MPS
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2015-08-26T06:20:01Z jackdaniel: is there something particulary wrong with boehm-gc?
2015-08-26T06:20:15Z fe[nl]ix: it's slow and inflexible
2015-08-26T06:20:30Z jackdaniel: thanks, I'll investigate this topic
2015-08-26T06:20:31Z Firedancer: At least the State of the Ecosystem is helpful for newbies like me :D Currently I have no idea how to find libraries for my needs. Wikipages are usually just full of links with very sparse descriptions without any indication is the project abandoned or not and does it even work nowadays
2015-08-26T06:20:32Z fe[nl]ix: take a look at the feature list of MPS, it's amazing
2015-08-26T06:20:56Z brucem: fe[nl]ix: Amazing and a good bit of work! :)
2015-08-26T06:21:19Z fe[nl]ix: brucem: no question about that
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2015-08-26T06:23:38Z fe[nl]ix: I'd even be interested in helping
2015-08-26T06:23:43Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: labda-lists
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2015-08-26T06:25:32Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: but it doesn't seem to be LGPL compatible
2015-08-26T06:26:33Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: for penniless open-source projects the authors do grant exceptions
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2015-08-26T06:26:47Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister and brucem can confirm
2015-08-26T06:27:00Z jackdaniel: ok, so reading further
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2015-08-26T06:28:12Z fe[nl]ix: so, more important features IMO:
2015-08-26T06:28:35Z fe[nl]ix: 1) multiple kinds of arenas, each with different GC strategies
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2015-08-26T06:28:54Z jackdaniel: it would be nice for lightweight processes I'm workin on now
2015-08-26T06:28:58Z fe[nl]ix: 2) the moving compacting GC can to auto-pinning
2015-08-26T06:29:21Z jasom: so in light of eudoxia calling for a native yaml parser, I've started writing one.  The grammar is defined completely without left-recursion, and is unambiguous, so it's been quite amenable to esrap so far.
2015-08-26T06:29:26Z brucem: jackdaniel: The project I work on has an exemption (visible in the license)
2015-08-26T06:29:43Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: B-W was thought as a replacement for malloc(), for when the logic becomes so complicated that freeing becomes difficult
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2015-08-26T06:30:02Z jackdaniel: brucem: any link?
2015-08-26T06:30:13Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: whereas with MPS you can allow it to move objects if you're careful
2015-08-26T06:30:55Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: FFI becomes somewhat challenging, unless you maintain a completely separate C and lisp heap
2015-08-26T06:31:29Z fe[nl]ix: yes, with MPS having multiple heaps with cross-pointers is pretty easy
2015-08-26T06:31:43Z fe[nl]ix: it was designed for that use case
2015-08-26T06:32:18Z brucem: jackdaniel: https://github.com/Ravenbrook/mps-temporary/blob/master/license.txt#L70-L81
2015-08-26T06:32:25Z fe[nl]ix: i.e. add a moving&compacting GC heap to a C++ program
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2015-08-26T06:33:36Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/126 – there it is
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2015-08-26T06:34:34Z jackdaniel: brucem: thanks
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2015-08-26T06:38:03Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: FFI is not that challenging precisely because of auto-pinning
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2015-08-26T06:41:58Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ok, thanks. I'll keep MPS on my TO-CHECK list
2015-08-26T06:42:00Z brucem: fe[nl]ix: We just have a small song and dance routine for exporting one of our objects out to the C world and importing it back (via a handle to manage the pinning).
2015-08-26T06:43:29Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: the authors are in #memorypoolsystem, but for more detailed questions there's the mailing list
2015-08-26T06:44:10Z brucem: fe[nl]ix: although for better or worse, drmeister and I seem to almost exclusively email their private internal mail alias.
2015-08-26T06:44:24Z fe[nl]ix: :D
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2015-08-26T07:02:42Z drmeister: The MPS library is complex but powerful and I haven't found any flaws.
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2015-08-26T07:04:13Z jackdaniel: drmeister: did you use both mps and boehm?
2015-08-26T07:04:35Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-08-26T07:04:55Z jackdaniel: I haven't found any speed comparisons on the net unfortunately – is it significantly faster, or just provides better "feature" set
2015-08-26T07:05:47Z drmeister: My experience has been that MPS is about 2x faster.  I'm hoping with my new changes it will be a larger difference.
2015-08-26T07:06:04Z jackdaniel: it's a big improvement indeed
2015-08-26T07:06:28Z drmeister: I can compare them side-by-side.
2015-08-26T07:06:49Z jackdaniel: that would be great - if you have time of course
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2015-08-26T07:08:23Z drmeister: It would be a fair investment in time, although ECL has a smaller set of objects to support.
2015-08-26T07:08:56Z drmeister: Clasp has something like 350 classes that are GC'd
2015-08-26T07:09:12Z jackdaniel: and they are all "C" objects after all in ECL case
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2015-08-26T07:10:30Z drmeister: The biggest job is writing the obj_scan function
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2015-08-26T07:10:50Z drmeister: Does ECL use a pointer tagging scheme?
2015-08-26T07:11:32Z jackdaniel: you mean: locative | immediate | other ? it uses two last bits to store that information
2015-08-26T07:11:49Z drmeister: Is what is described here for ECL correct?  http://lars.nocrew.org/lisptags.html
2015-08-26T07:12:06Z drmeister: It lists all the common Common Lisps and their respective tagging schemes.
2015-08-26T07:12:18Z jackdaniel: oh, that, yes
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2015-08-26T07:12:54Z jackdaniel: there is more then only these three, but generally yes
2015-08-26T07:13:07Z jackdaniel: bah, I'm wrong
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2015-08-26T07:13:28Z jackdaniel: there are this three, fixnum and character are immediates, and pointer points somewhere
2015-08-26T07:13:47Z jackdaniel: it's correct :)
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2015-08-26T08:48:44Z scymtym__: jasom: maybe my unfinished yaml parser has some pieces you can use: https://github.com/scymtym/parser.yaml
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2015-08-26T08:50:22Z scymtym__: jasom: also, esrap has some support for left-recursive grammar nowadays
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2015-08-26T09:19:58Z loke: drmeister: That one has at least one error that I can see
2015-08-26T09:20:10Z loke: SBCL uses only a single bit for integer tagging (at least on 64-bit)
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2015-08-26T11:20:07Z Cymew: Anyone have any preferences for which is better, cl-graphviz or cl-dot?
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2015-08-26T11:27:18Z bunde: Anyone who favour DO over LOOP ?
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2015-08-26T11:29:36Z pjb: DO is nice.
2015-08-26T11:29:36Z jackdaniel 
2015-08-26T11:29:56Z Cymew: A few of us. When I get fed up by trying to get the LOOP keywords in order I use DO.
2015-08-26T11:30:51Z jackdaniel: do is good, do+ is step forward and I think some useful construct might emerge with combining bind construct (3rd party library) and ideas from do+/iterate
2015-08-26T11:31:52Z H4ns: use loop.  do is much harder to read.  beginners tend to use it because it is so lispy, but in reality, loop is the proper construct.
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2015-08-26T11:32:57Z jackdaniel: H4ns: this is blubbery, non-trivial loop is much harder to comprehend – I'm not saying it's bad, but this argument is flawed
2015-08-26T11:33:20Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you're entitled to your opinion, of course.
2015-08-26T11:33:45Z jackdaniel: yes, thank you for assuring me on that :)
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2015-08-26T11:35:41Z Cymew: Actually, looping over a hash can be done with LOOP fairly simply. I've yet to see it done with DO.
2015-08-26T11:36:00Z Cymew: That would be a fun excercise. ;)
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2015-08-26T11:38:19Z bunde: What would you recommend to read if you would have a friend learn LISP ?
2015-08-26T11:38:47Z H4ns: bunde: is that friend a programmer yet?
2015-08-26T11:39:30Z jackdaniel: bunde: I would recommend ANSI Common-Lisp or PCL for programmers, Gentle introduction to symbolic computing for first programming contact
2015-08-26T11:40:26Z bunde: No this friend is not a computer programmer :-) But I was interested in what you favor in teaching and showing to others for them to learn.
2015-08-26T11:40:47Z H4ns: minion: tell bunde about gentle
2015-08-26T11:40:48Z minion: bunde: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2015-08-26T11:46:18Z jackdaniel: Cymew: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154318#1 (first annotation) would be equivalent to dolist I suppose
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2015-08-26T11:48:39Z Cymew: Naturally I totally forgot about MAPHASH. Nice macro!
2015-08-26T11:49:26Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-08-26T11:51:34Z bunde: thanks, for the gentle introduction.
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2015-08-26T12:22:00Z Xach: eudoxia: github is blocking me from fetching your blog feed :(
2015-08-26T12:22:25Z eudoxia: wow
2015-08-26T12:22:26Z eudoxia: rude
2015-08-26T12:22:28Z Xach: I don't understand why. It's giving me a 302 status response with no Location header
2015-08-26T12:22:39Z Xach: possibly due to my mafia ties :~(
2015-08-26T12:22:54Z eudoxia: hmm, try eudoxia0.github.io/feed.xml
2015-08-26T12:22:59Z Xach: ok
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2015-08-26T12:24:02Z Xach: nope. >> redirected to {'content-encoding': 'gzip', 'transfer-encoding': 'chunked', 'expires': 'Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:33:32 GMT', 'server': 'GitHub.com', 'last-modified': 'Wed, 26 Aug 2015 00:26:47 GMT', 'connection': 'close', 'cache-control': 'max-age=600', 'date': 'Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:23:32 GMT', 'access-control-allow-origin': '*', 'content-type': 'application/xml'}
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2015-08-26T12:24:20Z Xach: i can fetch it with curl just fine. something to do with this program, maybe.
2015-08-26T12:24:55Z eudoxia: huh
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2015-08-26T12:30:54Z splittist: Turns out formatting is tricky. Who knew? See https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0498/ and associated hate.
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2015-08-26T12:38:04Z loz: eudoxia: great post about cl ecosystem, thanks!
2015-08-26T12:39:00Z eudoxia: loz: thanks!
2015-08-26T12:39:39Z loz: eudoxia: do you mind if I translate it for Russian audience?
2015-08-26T12:40:16Z eudoxia: not at all (i really ought to put license information on my website lol)
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2015-08-26T13:00:08Z Xof: poor Xach
2015-08-26T13:00:18Z Xof: it must be hard to mastermind so many mafiae at once
2015-08-26T13:01:01Z Xach: Xof: it *is* hard
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2015-08-26T13:01:40Z brucem: I've previously suggested that he seek some help.
2015-08-26T13:05:24Z Xof: splittist: where can I read the associated hate?
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2015-08-26T13:36:43Z splittist: Xof: you could start here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10120893
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2015-08-26T13:43:07Z Xof: thanks
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2015-08-26T14:04:26Z drmeister: loke: Thanks
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2015-08-26T15:10:53Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: Btw, do you know what is the main roadblock for EQL/CommonQT to migrate to QT5? You should also talk to stats as he has mentioned (and posted in youtube) he was developing a CL IDE
2015-08-26T15:11:19Z PuercoPop: *stassats
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2015-08-26T15:11:52Z Shinmera: CommonQt is waiting for Clasp.
2015-08-26T15:12:04Z Shinmera: There won't be any migration to Qt5 until then.
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2015-08-26T15:14:03Z PuercoPop: qt5 was released way before clasp was announced. So I figure there is something that takes a lot of work that put off the upgrade
2015-08-26T15:14:22Z Shinmera: Generally there's no pull.
2015-08-26T15:14:31Z Shinmera: What feature in Qt5 do you need?
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2015-08-26T15:16:54Z PuercoPop: None, i don't even know what are the differences between qt4 and qt5. But afaik qt4 is no longer being developed and is nearing EOL
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2015-08-26T15:17:15Z Shinmera: It works just fine. Upgrading for the sake of upgrading isn't a good idea.
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2015-08-26T15:18:02Z Shinmera: Generally CommonQt work is on hold with the exception of bugfixes until Clasp is ready enough. Then, smoke will be dropped, and probably Qt5 will be the target. I don't know Stas' exact plans though.
2015-08-26T15:18:35Z eudoxia: oh, he's gonna use Clasp to generate Qt5 bindings?
2015-08-26T15:18:49Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-08-26T15:18:56Z eudoxia: cool
2015-08-26T15:19:20Z jlarocco_work: does that mean it won't work with SBCL?
2015-08-26T15:19:31Z Shinmera: In the meantime there's still a lot of work left to be done making it actually nice to use, so if you want things to do, there's plenty of food on that plate.
2015-08-26T15:19:35Z Shinmera: jlarocco_work: no.
2015-08-26T15:20:01Z dlowe: Someone could use clasp to generate CFFI bindings eventually
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2015-08-26T15:23:06Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: I agree on the upgrade comment.
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2015-08-26T15:25:58Z Shinmera: Speaking of easier to use: Qt-libs should properly support OS X in the next quicklisp release.
2015-08-26T15:26:23Z Shinmera: There were a few leftover nasty things with dynamically loaded "plugins" that Qt sneakily hid from me before, as well as supporting other package managers than MacPorts.
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2015-08-26T15:28:43Z Shinmera: Currently I'm still busy cleaning up some of the debris from that. Some pathname garbage is creeping up on me and I can't reproduce it anywhere except on travis, which is not exactly amiable to debugging.
2015-08-26T15:28:55Z Shinmera: Fun.
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2015-08-26T16:34:32Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I find talking with Stas hard (what might be totally my fault)
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2015-08-26T16:35:12Z jackdaniel: and EQL is independent project, so you have to ask Paul about roadmap – I just want to use it
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2015-08-26T16:36:27Z jackdaniel: I've heard CommonQT is somewhat unusable with ECL (slow), but EQL works just fine for me
2015-08-26T16:36:31Z jackdaniel: bbl \o
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2015-08-26T16:40:12Z Shinmera: CommonQt works just fine with ECL, but it might be slow, yes. I never tested it for performance.
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2015-08-26T16:43:18Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: Stas said it is unusable with big number of elements, I don't know the details (it was just a mention during some talk on #clasp)
2015-08-26T16:43:33Z Shinmera: I know.
2015-08-26T16:43:50Z jackdaniel: oh, ok
2015-08-26T16:43:59Z jackdaniel: later \o
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2015-08-26T17:07:41Z resttime: hmmm, i've been reading on closures in lisp like how to use them and advantages etc.
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2015-08-26T17:08:11Z resttime: so right now i'm curious about situations where they would be a bad idea
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2015-08-26T17:09:01Z resttime: What kinds of situations are there where a closure would be a bad idea?
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2015-08-26T17:11:08Z H4ns: hard to say without some context.  a closure references data, which means that as long as it can be referenced, the data that it references is also no garbage collected.
2015-08-26T17:11:21Z H4ns: noT garbage collected
2015-08-26T17:11:57Z jasom: H4ns: but even then that's not a down-side: either you don't need the closure anymore (so why have a reference to it) or you do, so you don't want the data to be GCed
2015-08-26T17:12:34Z H4ns: true, it can be surprising though if one accidentally closes over variables unexpected.
2015-08-26T17:12:36Z jasom: resttime: DEFUNs that are closures do inhibit some compile-time optimizations
2015-08-26T17:12:56Z jasom: just because DEFUNs that are top-level-forms are treated specially
2015-08-26T17:14:16Z jasom: resttime: closures also make it harder to inspect your data (though that's partly just a debugger implementation limitation)
2015-08-26T17:14:56Z jasom: similarly anonymous functions can make call-stacks a bit harder to read, depending on your implementation and DEBUG optimization setting
2015-08-26T17:15:25Z jasom: But I can't think of a time where I said "man I wish I hadn't used a closure there"
2015-08-26T17:15:53Z gargaml: resttime: if you have to write a garbage collector in the language itself, you need to be careful if you use closures when no more memory is available
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2015-08-26T17:17:41Z gargaml: Scheme48 for instance has a specific sublanguage to make this possible
2015-08-26T17:18:27Z gargaml: but as long as you don't have free variables captured it's generally fine, I think
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2015-08-26T17:21:24Z resttime: Interesting, thanks for the knowledge everyone
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2015-08-26T17:22:22Z resttime: time to start using closures everywhere and see how different it is
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2015-08-26T17:47:30Z shka: resttime: hey, what programming languages you were using before?
2015-08-26T17:47:59Z resttime: what do you mean?
2015-08-26T17:49:04Z shka: well, i'm not in the context, but were discussing closures…
2015-08-26T17:49:13Z shka: *you were
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2015-08-26T17:51:13Z resttime: hmmm well i've looked into a amount of languages, though i can't say i have too much familiarity with a lot of them
2015-08-26T17:51:29Z resttime: c/c++ maybe
2015-08-26T17:51:47Z dlowe: resttime: looking for the perfect language?
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2015-08-26T17:52:53Z resttime: more like having fun with learning in general
2015-08-26T17:53:18Z resttime: i really like lisp though
2015-08-26T17:53:24Z shka: resttime: you know about lambdas in C++11?
2015-08-26T17:54:16Z shka: so folks love it because you can use things like find_if more easiely, bind those on event loops along with variables and so one
2015-08-26T17:54:50Z resttime: i've heard of that, i think they also added lambda to java around the same time or something
2015-08-26T17:55:10Z shka: those are closures, but really overcomplicated and not that handy
2015-08-26T17:55:17Z shka: lisp is simple, nice and easy
2015-08-26T17:55:50Z resttime: yeah, i feel like with common lisp i can understand these concepts better
2015-08-26T17:56:20Z shka: and you can even return from parent function when you are in lambda
2015-08-26T17:56:28Z shka: which is quite amazing if you ask me
2015-08-26T17:56:36Z resttime: other languages are much to do with syntax if they don't force a paradigm
2015-08-26T17:58:10Z shka: resttime: well, i'm C++ programmer by day, and i must say that programming in common lisp is really mind expanding
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2015-08-26T17:58:47Z rme: resttime: It's probably too low-level and boring, but I recently remembered that I wrote http://ccl.clozure.com/blog/?p=53 which is about how Clozure CL implements closures.
2015-08-26T17:58:48Z shka: partly because you get better notion of closures, multiple-dispatch and other things that are so god-damn easy in common lisp
2015-08-26T17:59:43Z resttime: rme: thanks I'll read into it
2015-08-26T18:00:04Z resttime: shka: i agree, CLOS is very refreshing
2015-08-26T18:01:24Z shka: it is also to see how lisp folks are doing things
2015-08-26T18:02:02Z shka: from architecture point of view
2015-08-26T18:02:34Z shka: since it is quite different as well
2015-08-26T18:03:57Z shka: if somebody wants to write a book, software architecture metodology in common lisp would be nice topic
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2015-08-26T18:04:30Z H4ns: lol
2015-08-26T18:04:45Z shka: what's so funny?
2015-08-26T18:06:29Z shka: i assume that H4ns will never answer me
2015-08-26T18:06:47Z H4ns: shka: lisp is not a language that caters for "methodology"
2015-08-26T18:06:48Z shka: or he started writting already
2015-08-26T18:07:04Z H4ns: shka: it is more of a substrate for experimental and exploratory programming.
2015-08-26T18:07:32Z H4ns: shka: "methodology" is something more associated with teams and team-oriented programming, which lisp is not so great for.
2015-08-26T18:07:39Z resttime: hmm, i think i'll retract a statement, most other languages involves dealing with syntax even if they don't force a paradigm
2015-08-26T18:08:42Z shka: H4ns: that's certainly true that lisp is well suited for small teams and solo programmers, but it was also used for large team projects back in the 80s
2015-08-26T18:09:03Z shka: they had to came to some conclusions
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2015-08-26T18:09:10Z H4ns: shka: why is it not used more for these kinds of projects?
2015-08-26T18:09:25Z resttime: I think there comes a time for every programmer to get better is to move past the what I call the "syntax stage" and think in terms of concepts/paradigms
2015-08-26T18:09:26Z H4ns: shka: why did they not write books about "methodology" back in those days?
2015-08-26T18:09:53Z shka: because it is hard to hire lisp programmers and java has already industrial strength libs?
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2015-08-26T18:10:47Z shka: H4ns: perhaps it was before methodology concept was well described
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2015-08-26T18:11:06Z shka: but i don't know tbh
2015-08-26T18:11:08Z H4ns: shka: right.  and thus none of those concepts influenced the design of lisp.
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2015-08-26T18:11:39Z shka: yes, but we are not discussing desing of lisp
2015-08-26T18:11:50Z shka: we discuss design of applications written in lisp
2015-08-26T18:12:13Z shka: design of applications is certainly influenced by lisp
2015-08-26T18:12:22Z shka: i'm sure about this
2015-08-26T18:12:24Z H4ns: shka: you suggested that someone should write a book on "methodology" of lisp programming.  it'd be a short book:  open repl, start coding :)
2015-08-26T18:12:37Z shka: lol
2015-08-26T18:12:41Z shka: works for me i guess
2015-08-26T18:12:43Z shka: ;-)
2015-08-26T18:13:29Z rme: I once heard someone say that CL is a good programming lanaguage to use when you don't (yet) know what you are doing.
2015-08-26T18:13:40Z shka: that's actually true
2015-08-26T18:13:52Z H4ns: rme: unfortunately, i rarely know what i'm doing when i get started.
2015-08-26T18:13:59Z H4ns: rme: so lisp is perfect for me.
2015-08-26T18:14:01Z rme: That's why CL is good for me.
2015-08-26T18:14:10Z rme: heh
2015-08-26T18:14:19Z H4ns: java folks bridge the gap by coming up with lots of classes and layers
2015-08-26T18:14:33Z H4ns: in the hope that those extra abstractions help them understand what they do
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2015-08-26T18:14:46Z H4ns: i guess this sometimes works.  and it sure helps keeping big teams busy.
2015-08-26T18:14:46Z shka: well, problem is
2015-08-26T18:15:01Z shka: that those classes and layers
2015-08-26T18:15:15Z shka: are not really layered in reasonable way
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2015-08-26T18:15:40Z rme: That
2015-08-26T18:15:42Z rme: oops
2015-08-26T18:15:42Z shka: those are just large blobs of code
2015-08-26T18:15:50Z H4ns: shka: you're preaching to the choir :D
2015-08-26T18:16:47Z shka: and this is not only ugly
2015-08-26T18:16:54Z Adlai: you can have large blobs of unstructured lisp code, and also babel-towers of classes, layers, and "abstraction theater"... but lisp makes it easier to shuffle these around in search of simplicity
2015-08-26T18:17:32Z shka: Adlai: yeah, pretty much i agree
2015-08-26T18:17:53Z rme: When a prospective employer asks "why CL?" it's not that impressive to say "I like to use CL because I don't know what I am doing," but it's true.
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2015-08-26T18:18:02Z H4ns: heh
2015-08-26T18:18:13Z shka: to be more general, lisp allows to combine small (and large) parts of code in more reasonable (and flexible) way
2015-08-26T18:19:08Z resttime: rme: needs more buzzwords and i'm sure it'll work
2015-08-26T18:19:21Z shka: that is one of biggest advantages
2015-08-26T18:19:30Z shka: resttime: add more "exploration"
2015-08-26T18:19:56Z Adlai: there must be away to reword it as an awareness of the limits of your own knowledge and experience, defanged by lisp's power as a "programmer amplifier"
2015-08-26T18:20:11Z shka: rme: but that's actually only one side of the coin
2015-08-26T18:20:34Z shka: the other side is that you don't simply program to make program to solve specific problem
2015-08-26T18:20:48Z resttime: "Common Lisp allows me to synergize with the big data"
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2015-08-26T18:21:08Z shka: you do this also knowing that in the future this program will be changed
2015-08-26T18:21:14Z H4ns: you guys should apply your powerful tool to create awesome stuff rather than going on and on about how beautiful it is, really</snark>
2015-08-26T18:21:17Z shka: or used in other program
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2015-08-26T18:22:00Z rme: "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?"
2015-08-26T18:22:11Z H4ns: rme: that i had not said
2015-08-26T18:22:38Z shka: hehe
2015-08-26T18:22:42Z shka: see you later folks
2015-08-26T18:22:49Z shka: always nice to talk with you
2015-08-26T18:22:53Z rme asks himself that question
2015-08-26T18:23:08Z H4ns: rme: two words: donald trump
2015-08-26T18:23:26Z shka: rme: poverty is the state of mind
2015-08-26T18:23:40Z H4ns: rich and smart are two completely separate axes
2015-08-26T18:24:09Z optikalmouse: they’re ‘orthogonal'
2015-08-26T18:24:12Z optikalmouse: you could say.
2015-08-26T18:24:12Z H4ns: but you know that, so i think i should rather go
2015-08-26T18:24:21Z H4ns: optikalmouse: perfect! :)
2015-08-26T18:25:13Z rme: Anyway, lisp is fun, and when people ask me why I like it, that's why I say.
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2015-08-26T18:33:42Z rme: Sorry if I spoiled the mood.
2015-08-26T18:35:18Z Adlai is rich! "Look upon my conses, ye mighty, and despair"
2015-08-26T18:35:24Z aeth: Clearly the smartest way to make money is to be born into money like Trump.
2015-08-26T18:35:26Z optikalmouse: I think most of us here have day jobs where we use anything but lisp ;p
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2015-08-26T19:21:43Z shka: i don't even know who is trump…
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2015-08-26T19:24:01Z norfumpit: how would one loop over a list four items at a time?
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2015-08-26T19:24:13Z norfumpit: or however many items at a time
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2015-08-26T19:24:27Z norfumpit: i know how to hack it so it goes by two only
2015-08-26T19:24:29Z shka: norfumpit: like jump +4 each time?
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2015-08-26T19:25:09Z shka: well, i would do this like more or less like that
2015-08-26T19:25:46Z shka: (iterate (for rest initially list then (cddddr rest) (code goes here))
2015-08-26T19:25:52Z shka: but the real question is
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2015-08-26T19:26:01Z shka: why do you want to use list
2015-08-26T19:26:15Z shka: this is not efficient data structure for this task
2015-08-26T19:26:48Z norfumpit: doesn't have to be efficient, i'm just reading a very short tab separated file
2015-08-26T19:27:02Z shka: ah i see
2015-08-26T19:27:19Z shka: well, you can do this with loop using cddddr
2015-08-26T19:27:30Z Bicyclidine: (loop for (a b c d) on list by #'cdddr ...)
2015-08-26T19:27:31Z shka: just loop until you will hit nil
2015-08-26T19:27:31Z norfumpit: its got a kind of odd structure like that
2015-08-26T19:27:37Z norfumpit: should have a new line every four columns
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2015-08-26T19:31:20Z kyfho: hm
2015-08-26T19:31:25Z shka: norfumpit: Bicyclidine's code is correct
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2015-08-26T19:31:40Z shka does not like loop
2015-08-26T19:31:41Z kyfho: are maintaining lisp based databases longterm way wasier than in mysql?
2015-08-26T19:31:49Z kyfho: easier?
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2015-08-26T19:32:08Z kyfho: gosh companies are work for are such messes
2015-08-26T19:32:12Z kyfho: blh
2015-08-26T19:32:15Z kyfho: bleh
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2015-08-26T19:33:05Z shka: kyfho: sorry, i don't know
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2015-08-26T19:34:10Z dlowe: Probably not.
2015-08-26T19:34:37Z dlowe: whether or not a database is easy to write and maintain has only an indirect effect on the quality of the database :)
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2015-08-26T19:45:40Z kyfho: :)
2015-08-26T19:47:48Z Adlai: GIGO has a much more direct effect
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2015-08-26T21:09:37Z AeroNotix: is there something (maybe in flexi-streams?) that I can use to combine streams?
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2015-08-26T21:09:40Z AeroNotix: say I've got a socket and a flexi-output-stream and I want to write to both of them at the same time?
2015-08-26T21:09:56Z Shinmera: a broadcast-stream?
2015-08-26T21:10:19Z rme: You may want make-broadcast-stream.
2015-08-26T21:10:22Z AeroNotix: that's it! I knew I had seen it before.
2015-08-26T21:10:22Z AeroNotix: thanks rme
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2015-08-26T21:10:34Z AeroNotix: late night hacking always wrecks the memory
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2015-08-26T21:11:17Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: yeah I want to write to multiple streams at once
2015-08-26T21:11:17Z AeroNotix: it's for debugging, e.g. I want to write to a socket and then get back everything I wrote there.
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2015-08-26T21:16:09Z norfumpit: (in-package :pkg) (defvar moo '(a b c)) (in-package :diff-pkg) pkg::moo => (pkg::a pkg::b pkg::c)
2015-08-26T21:16:10Z norfumpit: so this
2015-08-26T21:16:15Z norfumpit: i wasnt expecting this :)
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2015-08-26T21:16:58Z norfumpit: umm, how do i get at the list of symbols ... unqualified, or is that just not done
2015-08-26T21:17:28Z mood: norfumpit: Symbols are qualified by definition, basically
2015-08-26T21:17:43Z mood: Where do you want to use the symbols?
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2015-08-26T21:19:29Z Adlai: norfumpit: you could (mapcar 'intern pkg::moo), but then you have a new list, containing new symbols
2015-08-26T21:19:31Z norfumpit: writing something for stumpwm. thought it was all in one package but seems somewhere in stumps pipeline this code gets called from a diff package and it blew up
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2015-08-26T21:19:46Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
2015-08-26T21:19:54Z AeroNotix: mood: does stump have automatic tiling and proper multi monitor support yet?
2015-08-26T21:20:16Z AeroNotix: how's it going btw
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2015-08-26T21:21:15Z norfumpit: what i actually got is some elisp in a list, like '(erc-channel-p "#bu") which i thought would be a neat way to keep it before writing it to a string and passing to emacsclient
2015-08-26T21:21:35Z norfumpit: AeroNotix: ive got some dyn tiling code for stump
2015-08-26T21:21:38Z norfumpit: dwm model
2015-08-26T21:21:58Z AeroNotix: norfumpit: oh nice
2015-08-26T21:21:58Z norfumpit: somewhere in my backups anyway
2015-08-26T21:22:06Z JokesOnYou77: Instead of appending something to my .sbclrc can I just add (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") to my .emacs in (eval-after-load "slime" '(load "foo/bar")) ?
2015-08-26T21:22:21Z norfumpit: AeroNotix: i could look it up for you if you want. its very basic, untested, etc etc :)
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2015-08-26T21:28:13Z AeroNotix: norfumpit: nah I was just interested in the off-chance
2015-08-26T21:28:18Z mood: The main maintainer recently posted on the mailing list about possibly declaring the project "done", so yeah
2015-08-26T21:28:18Z norfumpit: cool
2015-08-26T21:28:26Z AeroNotix: mood: yikes
2015-08-26T21:29:07Z mood: I've started, today, on another refactoring try to make maintenance easier
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2015-08-26T21:30:00Z AeroNotix: mood: nice! What are you aiming for?
2015-08-26T21:30:01Z mood: But there's so much to fix and improve, and I've tried several times already, so I'll wait and see how this pans out
2015-08-26T21:30:17Z AeroNotix: I tried to start removing pieces which didn't need to be there strictly, but I lost steam myself.
2015-08-26T21:30:19Z AeroNotix: work just went crazy the last 12 months
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2015-08-26T21:30:20Z AeroNotix: I'm so burned out with it.
2015-08-26T21:30:27Z mood: AeroNotix: Step 1: Remove functionality and replace utility functions with libraries
2015-08-26T21:30:34Z mood: Step 2: Not sure yet
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2015-08-26T21:30:34Z norfumpit: talking about stump, would anyone else really like to see it as mouse capable as it is keyboard capable?
2015-08-26T21:30:53Z mood: norfumpit: That could be nice
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2015-08-26T21:30:57Z AeroNotix: norfumpit: not me, but the way I see it is that if it doesn't hurt the codebase, why not?
2015-08-26T21:31:00Z AeroNotix: the draw should be a lisp window manager, not a lisp keyboard only window manager
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2015-08-26T21:31:41Z mood: I used bspwm before this, and occasionally it's very nice to be able to just drag windows around between tiles
2015-08-26T21:31:45Z AeroNotix: modals are always nice to keep floating
2015-08-26T21:31:47Z AeroNotix: and draggable
2015-08-26T21:31:48Z PuercoPop: mood: the code base needs to be modularized. But I think huge refactorings could affect stability. Moving to a one package per file would force an improvement.
2015-08-26T21:31:52Z norfumpit: ive got some code done already for itemizing mode line making it clickable kind of done like in emacs. i can click to groups, right click for menu, etc
2015-08-26T21:32:18Z norfumpit: would take a lot more to really enable the mouse
2015-08-26T21:32:22Z mood: norfumpit: Sounds nice
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2015-08-26T21:33:07Z norfumpit: basically i wanna rewrite gnome in lisp :)
2015-08-26T21:33:32Z PuercoPop: norfumpit: check eclipse-wm It already has icons
2015-08-26T21:33:48Z PuercoPop: and some widgets (calendar iirc)
2015-08-26T21:34:42Z PuercoPop: plus some X extensions like keysyms (which was rewritten from scratch for stumpwm afaik)
2015-08-26T21:38:23Z mordocai: Stump looks cool.
2015-08-26T21:38:29Z mordocai: I didn't know about. How feature complete is it compared to awesome/xmonad?
2015-08-26T21:38:29Z mood: norfumpit: As long as you don't get rid of the extreme keyboard-friendliness, that sounds great
2015-08-26T21:38:59Z norfumpit: ofc not :)
2015-08-26T21:38:59Z mood: mordocai: It's just very different, really. It's manually tiling, for one
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2015-08-26T21:39:00Z mordocai: I don't think I've done manually tiling. Though I guess it says it is similar to emacs tiling?
2015-08-26T21:39:00Z mood: Exactly
2015-08-26T21:39:00Z AeroNotix: mordocai: pretty much
2015-08-26T21:39:00Z norfumpit: or screen
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2015-08-26T21:39:00Z AeroNotix: also, the multi monitor support was a bit weird for me
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2015-08-26T21:39:00Z norfumpit: i dont like the model for that at all
2015-08-26T21:39:00Z mordocai: Hmm... well multi monitor support is a must for me but as long as it works...
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z norfumpit: would much prefer group per monitor
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z mood: It has multi monitor support
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z mood: But yes, all monitors switch groups at once
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z AeroNotix: yeah
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z norfumpit: just its one group at a time for all displays
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z AeroNotix: I want a per-screen group
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z AeroNotix: never had the time to dig into how to make that possible.
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z norfumpit: ive got some code somewhere for that too hahaha
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z norfumpit: all the things i stat and never finish
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z AeroNotix: norfumpit: ha!
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z mordocai: I think I could live with that. I'll give it a try. Hell, if I like it I may be motivated to contribute. I need a common lisp project to work on.
2015-08-26T21:39:01Z mood: PuercoPop: I've given that a try in the past, but it's such a gigantic amount of work
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2015-08-26T21:39:02Z mood: That's why this time I start by removing unneeded functionality, reducing inter-everything dependencies and the like
2015-08-26T21:39:02Z norfumpit: google knows of no such thing PuercoPop
2015-08-26T21:39:03Z mood: norfumpit: https://common-lisp.net/project/eclipse/
2015-08-26T21:39:03Z norfumpit: interesting PuercoPop
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2015-08-26T21:39:05Z mordocai: After compiling/installing I realize that stumpwm has a debian package. duh.
2015-08-26T21:39:05Z mordocai: Oh well, more up to date this way I'msure
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2015-08-26T21:42:02Z PuercoPop: mood: It is, I gave it ago but gave up. Not worth. I was thinking of taking the core of eclipse's main loop and CLOS 'interface' to CLX/X11's events and write a modular WM from scratch instead. Although I don't want to aim for something like gnome.
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2015-08-26T21:42:44Z PuercoPop: A good thing about StumpWM is that is commit messages of old are very well written so one can understand what and why they were doing stuff even years after.
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2015-08-26T21:46:56Z AeroNotix: "changed some stuff"
2015-08-26T21:46:59Z AeroNotix: yeah that's a killer
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2015-08-26T21:49:58Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: commit messages like that are not uncommon in much of the software found in github. I figure it is due to most ppl using git from the CLI and with the -m option. Plus not many people know how navigate the VCS history from their editor (C-x v g is a hidden gem in Emacs for example)
2015-08-26T21:50:26Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: or working in a software shop
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2015-08-26T21:51:07Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: also, magit
2015-08-26T21:51:17Z jlarocco: to be fair, a lot of commit messages outside of GitHub are that way, too
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2015-08-26T21:55:13Z PuercoPop: At a previous job, it would be common for my boss to use stuff like. "stuff", "moar stuff". "Fixes foo", "Fixes foo 2", "Really fixes foo". Or even a string of commits titled "..."
2015-08-26T21:56:05Z PuercoPop: Magit makes it easier to write more better commit messages for me.
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2015-08-26T22:26:14Z jasom: I just wrote the most ugly hackish macro I've ever wrote, and it's so I don't have to modify an external library.
2015-08-26T22:27:25Z AeroNotix: jasom: You're with friends now.
2015-08-26T22:27:34Z AeroNotix: you can tell us
2015-08-26T22:28:07Z jasom: It evaluates its body twice
2015-08-26T22:28:25Z mordocai: Sounds a bit like monkey patching in ruby. Definitely preferable to modifying an external library in many cases. (I have more ruby experience than CL)
2015-08-26T22:28:27Z jasom: (inside a different flet body each time)
2015-08-26T22:29:02Z jasom: And it has a (setf (fdefinition gensym) ...) inside an unwind protect
2015-08-26T22:29:39Z jasom: which reminds me: there isn't a way to dynamically bind functions, right?
2015-08-26T22:30:09Z jasom: I used unwind-protect with a fmakunbound
2015-08-26T22:30:57Z jasom: mordocai: lisp disallows changing definitions of functions in certain cases
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2015-08-26T22:32:50Z jasom: well anyway doing it the slightly-more-hacky way than my previous way ended up taking the compilation time down from 40 minutes to half a second, and all tests pass
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2015-08-26T22:33:28Z AeroNotix: jasom: what are you doing, out of interest?
2015-08-26T22:33:38Z rme: It sounds like advising (if your lisp supports it) would be useful in circumstances like that.
2015-08-26T22:34:54Z jasom: AeroNotix: Allowing parameterized rules in esrap
2015-08-26T22:35:20Z jasom: AeroNotix: it would be a 3 line change to esrap, but I don't know that anybody wants it, and this way I don't need to include a custom version of esrap
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2015-08-26T22:37:02Z jasom: AeroNotix: esrap does allow invoking functions as rules, but they aren't allowed to take parameters, and they have to be global named functions.  I worked around this by binding the fdefinition of a gensym around an invocation of esrap:parse to a closure with the desired arguments.
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2015-08-26T22:38:43Z AeroNotix: jasom: so you rebind gensym to return your lambda, effectively?
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2015-08-26T22:40:40Z jasom: yup, and I need to do it once for every invocation of the rule in the body.  The body should be mostly quoted, with only invocation of other rules unquoted, so I evaluate it once to collect a list of invocations, then I bind them, then I run it for real.
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2015-08-26T22:40:59Z jasom: In any event, parser rules need to be pure, so double-evaluation is a non-problem
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2015-08-26T22:42:58Z AeroNotix: interesting
2015-08-26T22:43:26Z AeroNotix: why did it take 40 minutes before?
2015-08-26T22:43:51Z jasom: because my old way was to enumerate all the possible arguments and generate a rule for each combination
2015-08-26T22:44:11Z AeroNotix: aha
2015-08-26T22:44:13Z jasom: and esrap is super-linear in time for number of rules
2015-08-26T22:44:54Z jasom: e.g. doubling the rules increased runtime by about a factor of eight.
2015-08-26T22:44:55Z jasom: s/runtime/compile time/
2015-08-26T22:45:19Z AeroNotix: yikes.
2015-08-26T22:45:20Z AeroNotix: how many rules do you have?
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2015-08-26T22:45:36Z jasom: 139
2015-08-26T22:45:41Z AeroNotix: oh ok
2015-08-26T22:45:41Z jasom: though with combinations of possible arguments it was a few thousand
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2015-08-26T22:51:46Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.  I'm trying to get quicklisp to load from my .emacs file using (eval-after-load "slime"  but it's throwing an error: Symbol's function definition is void: defpackage
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2015-08-26T22:52:19Z XachX: Quicklisp is not an emacs program.
2015-08-26T22:52:33Z rme: JokesOnYou77: I assume that eval-after-load tries to load a file into emacs.  Quicklisp needs to be loaded into your Common Lisp implementation.
2015-08-26T22:56:12Z JokesOnYou77: XachX, rme, you're right.  I thought I was doing it already with another lisp program but I looked at it and it's actually valid emacs lisp.  Thank you
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2015-08-26T23:26:09Z JokesOnYou77: Another dumb question, where can I find docs for what ~{ and ~} do as format directives?  The hyperspec has always been very opaque to me on format directives
2015-08-26T23:26:29Z jasom: clhs ~{
2015-08-26T23:26:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm
2015-08-26T23:27:10Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: also see http://xach.com/lisp/clhs-lookup/
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2015-08-26T23:28:04Z mordocai: Not as good a reference in general, but this seems to have so decent examples http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html
2015-08-26T23:28:10Z mordocai: some decent*
2015-08-26T23:28:45Z JokesOnYou77: The gigamonkeys book is usually my first stop, and then the wikibooks on lisp, but they were very unhelpful on this
2015-08-26T23:29:08Z JokesOnYou77: Ah, nvmd found it.  Needed to keep reading
2015-08-26T23:29:42Z jasom: in general I start with section 22.3 of the hyperspec
2015-08-26T23:29:44Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, it wasthe ^ with { that was confusing me.  better now I think
2015-08-26T23:29:44Z jasom: clhs 22.3
2015-08-26T23:29:44Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2015-08-26T23:31:39Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah, but those are the pages that I find completely inscrutable. :/
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2015-08-26T23:32:52Z jasom: ah, well I guess I've gotten used th toem
2015-08-26T23:33:08Z jasom: I do recall them being a bit inscrutible when I started
2015-08-26T23:33:35Z Oladon: JokesOnYou77: Have you checked out PCL's chapter on format?
2015-08-26T23:33:55Z jasom: perhaps I should read PCLs chapter on format sinc Oladon is the 3rd person to mention it
2015-08-26T23:34:02Z Oladon: jasom: lol
2015-08-26T23:34:21Z JokesOnYou77: Acutally, I have Graham's book on the table across the room, I should have thought of that lol
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2015-08-26T23:43:55Z JokesOnYou77: Is there a way to get the slime repl to behave more like a standard bash (gui) shell that keeps the prompt at the top after I hit C-l ?
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2015-08-26T23:48:41Z PuercoPop: JokesOnYou77: Slime appears to have slime-repl-clear-output. Try C-c C-o. Sly has sly-clear-repl-history which does precisely what you want.
2015-08-26T23:49:19Z JokesOnYou77: Sly?
2015-08-26T23:52:35Z PuercoPop: Is a fork of Sly, it uses comint mode for the repl so it has a more familiar REPL interface imho. C-r, C-p, etc. I've been using it for almost a year.
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2015-08-26T23:53:12Z JokesOnYou77: Cool
2015-08-26T23:53:16Z JokesOnYou77: I'll take a look
2015-08-26T23:54:16Z PuercoPop: First try C-c C-o, easier to try out.
2015-08-26T23:54:54Z rme: I believe it is C-c M-o
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2015-08-26T23:56:36Z JokesOnYou77: Looks like C-c M-o flushes the buffer, perfect.  Thank you both.
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2015-08-27T00:03:28Z JokesOnYou77: ok, I've had this problem before and I know it's because I'm forgetting something about how load/compile work, but if I have quicklisp imports at the top of a file that I load/compile, why am I getting compiler errors taht the packages I want to load don't exist?
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2015-08-27T00:31:25Z pillton: JokesOnYou77: It shouldn't be a problem when loading. You need to use EVAL-WHEN if you are a compiling.
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2015-08-27T00:35:28Z JokesOnYou77: pillton, thank you
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2015-08-27T03:14:45Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: you can still send CL sexps to the inferior lisp thru slime.
2015-08-27T03:15:07Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/slime-rpc.el
2015-08-27T03:15:32Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414
2015-08-27T03:16:00Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: but you can just add your forms in ~/.swank.lisp
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2015-08-27T03:31:30Z patrickwonders: How do people deal with typespecs for complex number?   (check-type foo complex) fails when the foo = #C(x 0).  Do people really use (or real complex) all over?  Or deftype it?  Or is there some better trick?
2015-08-27T03:33:45Z pillton: Perhaps (check-type foo number) ?
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2015-08-27T03:36:07Z Bike: yeah, id' just use number.
2015-08-27T03:36:09Z loke: Should I writch to Sly?
2015-08-27T03:36:10Z patrickwonders: Okay, I guess I was thinking more of this case:  (deftype screen-coordinate () `(0 ,+max-screen-coord+)) … (check-type foo (complex screen-coordinate))
2015-08-27T03:36:11Z loke: switch
2015-08-27T03:36:56Z loke: patrickwonders: Why is your screen coordinate a complex number?
2015-08-27T03:37:05Z pillton wonders too.
2015-08-27T03:37:10Z Bike: because the complex plane is neat!
2015-08-27T03:37:38Z loke: Bike: It's very neat, but it's not a general "pair of numbers" datatype.
2015-08-27T03:37:39Z patrickwonders: As a complex number, I can get scaling, rotating, and translating for free.  *shrug*
2015-08-27T03:37:54Z Bike: it's a pretty general "position on the plane" type
2015-08-27T03:38:04Z Bike: anyway, so what you want to do is make sure the number is within some rectangle.
2015-08-27T03:38:29Z Bike: (complex screen-coordinate) is probably not what you want - thanks to upgrading it's probably going to be equivalent to (complex real) or something.
2015-08-27T03:38:53Z patrickwonders nods
2015-08-27T03:39:17Z Bike: so... i don't actually know how to do this in the type system, short of satisfies.
2015-08-27T03:39:32Z Bike: i'd just use realpart, imagpart, >=, <=, and wrap it in a function/macro
2015-08-27T03:39:51Z patrickwonders: It was mostly for the documentation aspect of it, really.  And, yes.. the chances that the range of x-coordinates is the same as the range of y-coordinates is probably not much better than just letting it be a full-on real number.
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2015-08-27T03:40:22Z Bike: well, it's not that, it related to an oddity of the type system - (complex foo) is more about the storage than about the values of the parts. it's complicated and mainly irrelevant.
2015-08-27T03:40:57Z pillton: You could do it with the cons type e.g. '(cons (integer 0 30) (cons (integer 0 30) null)).
2015-08-27T03:41:01Z Bike: on sbcl, for example, i think all (complex foo) will end up as (complex rational), (complex single-float), etc.
2015-08-27T03:41:36Z pillton: Not a complex number, but still a valid representation of screen coordinates.
2015-08-27T03:41:52Z pillton: ...or a single cons.
2015-08-27T03:42:01Z Bike: aw, but then you can't use phase :(
2015-08-27T03:42:32Z pillton: I prefer affine transformations.
2015-08-27T03:43:00Z pillton: Just for the /shear/ fun of it.
2015-08-27T03:43:11Z Bike: ow.
2015-08-27T03:43:14Z pillton hits a cymbol.
2015-08-27T03:43:22Z patrickwonders hits a symbol.
2015-08-27T03:43:55Z patrickwonders sees that pilton already made that joke… (missed the “o”)
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2015-08-27T03:45:22Z patrickwonders: Thank you, all….
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2015-08-27T06:07:02Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-27T06:48:40Z |3b|: is there any better way to get a tightly packed struct in cffi than specifying slot offsets by hand?
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2015-08-27T08:31:11Z myrkraverk: Is there a way to set client side parameters in postmodern?  Like lc_time.  And not just the search_path?
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2015-08-27T08:35:24Z myrkraverk: Hmm, apparently, maybe.  With.
2015-08-27T08:35:46Z myrkraverk: (postmodern:execute "set lc_time=\"ja_JP\"") ; hackish but works - or at least doesn't error out.
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2015-08-27T08:52:54Z H4ns: myrkraverk: that's how we've been doing it for years to set the search_path.  not that much of a hack i'd say.
2015-08-27T08:53:34Z myrkraverk: H4ns: but there is a set-search-path function c;
2015-08-27T08:53:53Z dim: this function is then in turn sending the SET query, right?
2015-08-27T08:54:22Z dim: you can change params at connection time or then using SET, or on the server-side with ALTER ROLE ... SET ... or ALTER DATABASE ... SET ...
2015-08-27T08:54:24Z myrkraverk: I think so - at least it "works for me" - but with-schema doesn't, when the schema starts with a number.
2015-08-27T08:54:39Z dim: you need to quote the schema name then
2015-08-27T08:54:51Z dim: quote with "", and PostgreSQL needs to see them
2015-08-27T08:54:51Z myrkraverk: As in, I was unable to get with-schema to work for something like "2nd"
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2015-08-27T08:55:11Z dim: did you try (with-schema "\"2nd\"" ...)?
2015-08-27T08:55:16Z myrkraverk: dim: yeah, I know, it just didn't work for me - so I ended up just using set-search-path instead.
2015-08-27T08:55:23Z myrkraverk: iirc, yes.
2015-08-27T08:55:32Z dim: fair enough; I'm yet to use with-schema myself
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2015-08-27T10:29:02Z Cymew: I just read the quicklisp download stats, and I'm starting to wonder how it comes alexandria is used so much. It would be really interesting to find out which functions in that package are most often used.
2015-08-27T10:30:00Z jackdaniel utilizes mostly with-gensyms, ensure-*, once-only and friends
2015-08-27T10:30:02Z Cymew: I almost never uses alexandria, so I'm wondering what obvious stuff I'm missing...
2015-08-27T10:30:36Z jackdaniel: well, it brings just well estabilished lisp features together, so you don't have to reimplement them in your utility box
2015-08-27T10:31:00Z jackdaniel: s/features/utilities/
2015-08-27T10:31:56Z Cymew: I guess my lisp code is either filled with square wheels, or very unsophisticated.
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2015-08-27T10:32:14Z Cymew: I'm never sure about those wheels.
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2015-08-27T10:34:21Z Cymew: I know I just spend 38 LOC implementing (sort (alexandria:hash-table-alist apa) #'> :key #'cdr but then it was at least intentional...
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2015-08-27T10:46:46Z loke uses a certain set of alexandria functions all the time. I'm probably not using enough.
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2015-08-27T11:01:28Z zickzackv: myrkraverk: hi myrkraverk , i wrote this schema extension for postmodern. i remember that someone else reported this behavior. i will have a look; but not right now
2015-08-27T11:01:54Z myrkraverk: ok
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2015-08-27T11:15:43Z dim: Cymew: I use read-file-into-string and alist-plist and other alist to hash table functions
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2015-08-27T11:16:52Z Cymew: READ-FILE-INTO-STRING actually sounds quite useful
2015-08-27T11:17:07Z mood: Note that UIOP also has a function for that
2015-08-27T11:17:21Z mood: READ-FILE-STRING I believe
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2015-08-27T11:18:27Z Cymew: UIOP is what I usually look at when searching for utilities. Might make me the odd one.
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2015-08-27T11:30:06Z haom: hello
2015-08-27T11:30:45Z jackdaniel: haom: hi
2015-08-27T11:30:52Z haom: can somebody point me to a list of lisp-specific naming conventions respected by emacs syntax indentation and coloring?
2015-08-27T11:31:17Z haom: for exmaple, when i write a macro, how can i tell lisp that it is a macro so that subsequent forms are indented properly?
2015-08-27T11:31:45Z jackdaniel: for common-lisp slime takes care of this
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2015-08-27T11:31:59Z jackdaniel: if you mean emacs lisp, then you should have more luck on #emacs
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2015-08-27T11:32:24Z haom: no, i meant common lisp.
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2015-08-27T11:32:38Z jackdaniel: this is for CL http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2015-08-27T11:33:02Z White_Flame: haom: slime indents based on &body vs normal arguments
2015-08-27T11:33:29Z haom: i know this wiki page, but it isnt specific to writing lisp in emacs, thats why i'm asking.
2015-08-27T11:33:43Z White_Flame: if all the parameters are specific, then they'll indent as data, not as code, even if you're passing in expression bodies
2015-08-27T11:33:43Z haom: when the answer is "always use slime", i am ok with that.
2015-08-27T11:34:50Z jackdaniel: there is http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/emacs-ide.html for emacs w/o  slime
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2015-08-27T11:35:40Z haom: does slime have to be connected to a lisp instance, or is the general slime mode sufficient?
2015-08-27T11:36:11Z jackdaniel: if you want some introspection facilities and macro indention then it has to be connected afaik
2015-08-27T11:36:16Z White_Flame: for indenting user-defined macros with &body, I believe it needs to be connected
2015-08-27T11:36:22Z haom: okay.
2015-08-27T11:38:38Z haom: okay, I've tested it now, indeed, it has to be connected and the project quickloaded first.
2015-08-27T11:39:04Z jackdaniel: it also has some problems when you use a buffer, which isn't a file (with macro indention that is)
2015-08-27T11:39:07Z jackdaniel: and not always
2015-08-27T11:39:10Z jackdaniel: just fyi
2015-08-27T11:39:19Z White_Flame: right, it does not read the source code for definition of how the macro parameters, it introspects it from the running Lisp image
2015-08-27T11:39:36Z White_Flame: ...how the macro parameters are declared & indent...
2015-08-27T11:39:55Z haom: okok, I had to purposefully rename some things just to have proper indentation, but now i can change that back.
2015-08-27T11:40:12Z haom: so thanks.
2015-08-27T11:40:19Z Firedancer: Does Slime fetch you automatically function definitions only when using right contrib?
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2015-08-27T11:42:01Z Cymew: Firedancer: What are you missing? Autodoc?
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2015-08-27T11:43:12Z Firedancer: Hmm I guess so Cymew. I am pretty new so I am not sure which parts does what in Slime
2015-08-27T11:43:42Z Cymew: If you want to see the function arguments as you type them, autodoc is what you are looking for. I'd use slime-fancy if I were you.
2015-08-27T11:43:42Z Firedancer: I got it working on Arch Linux machine, but it doesn't work correctly on my Windows box
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2015-08-27T11:44:00Z Firedancer: okay, I probably have not loaded that Cymew. Thanks
2015-08-27T11:44:07Z Cymew: Hope that helps
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2015-08-27T11:45:10Z Firedancer: Is there somewhere good list what different contribs have inside them?
2015-08-27T11:45:37Z Firedancer: As the doc for example says just "slime-fancy is a meta package which loads a combination of the most popular packages." which doesn't really tell me anything :D
2015-08-27T11:46:07Z Cymew: Look at the source and you'll see it listed in the :slime-dependencies section
2015-08-27T11:46:33Z Cymew: There might be some way to pull that out, but I just open the files and look...
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2015-08-27T12:01:41Z AeroNotix: anyone have a good lib for scheduling/timers which can be reset?
2015-08-27T12:01:51Z AeroNotix: I was looking at a few things, but either they're not portable or are very undocumented
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2015-08-27T12:03:39Z Shinmera: I was going to write one, but then never got to it.
2015-08-27T12:03:56Z Shinmera: It's on the queue for when I get to rewriting Colleen from scratch.
2015-08-27T12:05:15Z AeroNotix: cool. I'll take a look at this one on here, maybe there's a good base to build on
2015-08-27T12:05:21Z AeroNotix: clon
2015-08-27T12:05:21Z Cymew: I really don't understand those that praise magit. It feels so much faster to run git from the command line.
2015-08-27T12:05:37Z AeroNotix: Cymew: good for you. Different strokes
2015-08-27T12:05:49Z AeroNotix: it works for me, I drop to the cli sometimes for specific operations
2015-08-27T12:05:51Z Shinmera: This is neither a productive statement, nor the channel for it.
2015-08-27T12:05:53Z AeroNotix: but most operations are much easier
2015-08-27T12:06:07Z Cymew: Like alexandria, it makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong...
2015-08-27T12:06:30Z AeroNotix: What's wrong with alexandria Cymew?
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2015-08-27T12:06:59Z Cymew: Nothing. I just don't use it, and since so many do I started to wonder if I was missing something.
2015-08-27T12:07:17Z AeroNotix: well it's "just" a utility library with a few common operations
2015-08-27T12:07:23Z Shinmera: I don't use Alexandria, but my development habits aren't the best to begin with, so.
2015-08-27T12:07:26Z Cymew: I got some good suggestions earlier on what some people used. You can check the log.
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2015-08-27T12:07:40Z AeroNotix: I use it. Same as I use that split-sequence library
2015-08-27T12:07:58Z AeroNotix: I just don't want to implement everything from scratch, alexandria is well-known for better or worse, so people are familiar with it
2015-08-27T12:08:03Z Shinmera: The only feature of it that I would find myself using often is with-gensyms, but I've gotten used to just writing it out myself.
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2015-08-27T12:08:20Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: but why? Dependencies are not overly difficult in CL with quicklisp
2015-08-27T12:09:12Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I just said my development habits aren't the best. There's no properly defensible reason for it. It's just how I do.
2015-08-27T12:09:16Z AeroNotix: ok
2015-08-27T12:09:17Z Cymew: I actually like to minimize external dependencies in my code, but moderation in all things...
2015-08-27T12:09:25Z AeroNotix: Cymew: for what reason?
2015-08-27T12:09:41Z AeroNotix: I can understand really new/alpha releases but alexandria is quite well used
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2015-08-27T12:09:57Z mood: Some moderation is probably good, but Alexandria is used by so many things that it's likely already loaded anyway
2015-08-27T12:09:59Z AeroNotix: e.g. I'm hesitant to use this Clon thing
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2015-08-27T12:10:08Z AeroNotix: mood: oh good point
2015-08-27T12:10:14Z Cymew: Simplicity. I get all in one place, and if I am offline I can run the code even if I can not use quicklisp.
2015-08-27T12:10:31Z AeroNotix: I wonder what the percentage chance of having alexandria as a dependency is the more dependencies you have
2015-08-27T12:10:48Z Cymew: Also, I am a sucker for doing it all by myself, just to flex my muscles.
2015-08-27T12:10:50Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: 100%
2015-08-27T12:10:58Z Cymew: I'm not known for efficiency
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2015-08-27T12:11:49Z mood: Whenever I need a utility that I know is in Alexandria, I just check if it's already loaded by another dependency. That's usually the case, in which adding it to my dependencies doesn't change a thing.
2015-08-27T12:11:50Z AeroNotix: I just like to focus on the primary task, rather than trivia like implementing SPLIT-SEQUENCE again and again
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2015-08-27T12:12:39Z AeroNotix: What about flexi-streams, for example?
2015-08-27T12:12:49Z AeroNotix: or similarly libraries
2015-08-27T12:12:51Z AeroNotix: similar*
2015-08-27T12:14:25Z mood: Flexi-streams doesn't seem to depend on alexandria, but Babel does
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2015-08-27T13:11:05Z AeroNotix: what's the best way to get the local-projects directory for quicklisp?
2015-08-27T13:11:33Z AeroNotix: or a more direct question, what's the best way to find the asdf central-registry so I can automatically add dependencies in the right place?
2015-08-27T13:11:40Z AeroNotix: whether or not someone is using quicklisp?
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2015-08-27T13:13:42Z pjb: asdf:*central-registry*
2015-08-27T13:13:50Z jackdaniel: ↑
2015-08-27T13:14:51Z AeroNotix: pjb: I'm using this, but e.g. local-projects is ../local-projects from what *central-registry* is
2015-08-27T13:15:00Z AeroNotix: and I assume that this is different for people not using quicklisp
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2015-08-27T13:20:38Z |3b|: asdf has lots of options for how it finds .asd files (including arbitrary functions provided by the user), so going from the asdf configuration at runtime to some directory you could put things into would be difficult, if that's what you are asking
2015-08-27T13:21:37Z AeroNotix: |3b|: that's what I am asking
2015-08-27T13:21:45Z AeroNotix: I'll just assume quicklisp for now, since it's mostly just for me
2015-08-27T13:22:18Z Shinmera: Note that Quicklisp can have multiple local-projects directories. See ql:*local-projects-directories*
2015-08-27T13:22:24Z |3b|: better would be to just pick some directory and use one of those options to tell asdf where you put it
2015-08-27T13:22:31Z pjb: AeroNotix: you're making to many syntax errors for me to understand exactly what you want.
2015-08-27T13:22:33Z Shinmera: * ql:*local-project-directories*
2015-08-27T13:22:36Z pjb: s/to/too/
2015-08-27T13:22:44Z AeroNotix: pjb: what do you mean?
2015-08-27T13:23:13Z pjb: "what's the best way to find the asdf central-registry so I can automatically add dependencies in the right place?" -> syntax error
2015-08-27T13:23:23Z AeroNotix: pjb: let me try to rephrase
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2015-08-27T13:23:45Z AeroNotix: pjb: I want to add dependencies to the asdf registry, but how do I find it?
2015-08-27T13:23:48Z pjb: "I'm using this, but e.g. local-projects is ../local-projects from what *central-registry* is" -> syntax error
2015-08-27T13:24:05Z pjb: (push #P"/your/dir/" asdf:*central-registry*)
2015-08-27T13:24:17Z Shinmera: ASDF's "central-registry" is a special variable containing a list of directories.
2015-08-27T13:24:20Z AeroNotix: pjb: I was thinking to use that, but it seems a bit.. odd
2015-08-27T13:24:30Z AeroNotix: No big deal, good ideas I can use here. Thanks all
2015-08-27T13:24:32Z Shinmera: You can't "find" it.
2015-08-27T13:24:55Z pjb: If you want "less odd", read the documentation of asdf, it has plenty of "less odd" ways to find system files.
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2015-08-27T13:25:01Z AeroNotix: pjb: thanks
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2015-08-27T13:45:12Z Cymew: Fare mentioned this on the asdf-devel list a few days ago: (alexandria:hash-table-alist asdf/source-registry::*source-registry*)
2015-08-27T13:45:26Z Cymew: Might be useful (and a reason to use alexandria)
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2015-08-27T13:55:36Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: asdf has a configuration DSL: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems the *central-registry* is deprecated. But as a far as I can tell, it is what most people use.
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2015-08-27T13:59:11Z AeroNotix: thanks
2015-08-27T13:59:15Z PuercoPop: Cymew: a useful function of Alexandria is parse-body
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2015-08-27T14:11:27Z Cymew: Hmm. Have to look at that one
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2015-08-27T14:22:43Z Cymew: That was an odd one.
2015-08-27T14:22:55Z Cymew: PuercoPop: What have you used it for?
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2015-08-27T14:26:41Z PuercoPop: For when you are writing macros that take a body. To extract declarations and docstrings from it. An example of its use can be found here: https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda/blob/master/let-over-lambda.lisp#L126
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2015-08-27T14:32:47Z Shinmera: I use form-fiddle for that.
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2015-08-27T14:38:42Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: consider modifying the API like pjb's lisp-sexp so that docstring returns a list with the docstring instead of just the string so one can use ,@docstring directly.
2015-08-27T14:40:22Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: Will have to think on it. It's a compatibility-breaking change, so I'm hesitant.
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2015-08-27T14:42:55Z optikalmouse: it’s a shame that lispers dont have recruiting events
2015-08-27T14:43:16Z jackdaniel: recruiting events?
2015-08-27T14:43:18Z optikalmouse: “we got parens!!!111one"
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2015-08-27T14:44:03Z Shinmera: Hilarious.
2015-08-27T14:44:09Z optikalmouse: jackdaniel: basically an event where you through resumes around like candy
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2015-08-27T14:44:32Z optikalmouse: Shinmera: imagine someone dressed up in an alien mascot suit. that’s the company I’d work for ;p
2015-08-27T14:44:56Z Shinmera: Good for you.
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2015-08-27T14:45:53Z jackdaniel: sounds like a nice marketing trick to get attention from new people, but I'm not sure if it could help company to hold image as being "serious"
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2015-08-27T14:47:05Z optikalmouse: more seriously though; is parenscript in active dev or should I look at something like clojurescript?
2015-08-27T14:47:52Z jackdaniel: I think that active dev is proof, that something is work in progres ;-)
2015-08-27T14:48:01Z jackdaniel: I've heard it's fairly complete though
2015-08-27T14:48:20Z eudoxia: parenscript is essentially finished, yeah
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2015-08-27T14:50:57Z Shinmera: I hear it's not the nicest to use though. There was a project to add on additional feature to ease it, but I can't recall what it was called.
2015-08-27T14:51:03Z Shinmera: Someone in here worked on it though.
2015-08-27T14:51:07Z Shinmera: *features
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2015-08-27T14:52:10Z jackdaniel: paren-util maybe?
2015-08-27T14:52:31Z optikalmouse: last time i used it I liked it but it felt like you had to develop wrapper libs for any of the major JS libs out there to make it work nicely.
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2015-08-27T15:03:19Z synchromesh: Speaking of such things, has anyone used the RESTAS web framework recently? Has it been superseded?
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2015-08-27T15:05:14Z Shinmera: I haven't heard or found much about Restas in the two years I've used CL now.
2015-08-27T15:05:31Z Shinmera: I doubt that says much either way though. There might very well be some people out there running it happily.
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2015-08-27T15:06:45Z eudoxia: synchromesh: use Clack http://clacklisp.org/
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2015-08-27T15:09:02Z varjag:  you are not a 1990s kid if you don't remember cl-imho!
2015-08-27T15:09:08Z jackdaniel: weblocks is a very good framework as well
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2015-08-27T15:10:33Z rme: I myself found weblocks difficult to use.  But that could be just me.
2015-08-27T15:10:44Z jackdaniel: yeah, learning curve is pretty steep
2015-08-27T15:10:57Z jackdaniel: but it paid out for me
2015-08-27T15:11:12Z Shinmera eagerly looks forward to returning to work on Radiance
2015-08-27T15:11:25Z jackdaniel: especially that it really nicely degrades when there is no js on browser
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2015-08-27T15:14:12Z varjag: rme: same here.. it felt kind of like CLIM of the web
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2015-08-27T15:15:13Z varjag: i guess it's a matter of exposure to it though
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2015-08-27T15:16:37Z lambda-smith: I thought weblock is no longer being maintained?
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2015-08-27T15:22:40Z jackdaniel: hm, last commit from may, main website is inactive and google groups have rare posts
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2015-08-27T15:23:23Z jackdaniel: it definetely could use some love :)
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2015-08-27T15:29:04Z resttime: i could not sleep yesterday so i started hacking together an image booru into the night
2015-08-27T15:29:18Z resttime: it is so horrible and featureless
2015-08-27T15:29:24Z resttime: fun fun though lol
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2015-08-27T15:29:42Z resttime: "werks" too
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2015-08-27T15:34:02Z synchromesh: Thanks everyone for the comments & suggestions!
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2015-08-27T15:39:17Z jasom: synchromesh: there are several things built on top of clack as well
2015-08-27T15:40:10Z jasom: The problem I found with weblocks is that the js and html generated by it are very old-school, and it's not the most malleable library I've used
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2015-08-27T15:40:36Z jasom: The mailing list is also very unresponsive to bug reports, even those with proposed fixes
2015-08-27T15:42:08Z jasom: minion: memo for optikalmouse: I'm a contributor to parenscript, so let me know if you have any questions about it
2015-08-27T15:42:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell optikalmouse when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-27T15:45:37Z jasom: Quick poll: What variable name do you use when porting algorithms with variables typically named "t"
2015-08-27T15:45:48Z pjb: time
2015-08-27T15:46:14Z pjb: You can also use \t.
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2015-08-27T15:46:21Z pjb: or else: (shadow "T") and t.
2015-08-27T15:47:32Z jasom: oh, I hadn't though about \t.  I use "tee"
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2015-08-27T15:47:51Z Shinmera: I recently had that problem in my game engine and resorted to `clock`.
2015-08-27T15:47:54Z Xof: 𝑡
2015-08-27T15:48:09Z Xof: U+1D461
2015-08-27T15:48:10Z Shinmera: Because `time` is already a CL function too.
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2015-08-27T15:48:35Z jasom: Shinmera: you can still use it as a variable
2015-08-27T15:48:50Z Shinmera: I know, but I also had to use it as an accessor.
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2015-08-27T15:49:04Z jasom: and I don't like "time" for parametric equations that are not necessarily time-based
2015-08-27T15:49:17Z pjb: Or you can use: т.
2015-08-27T15:49:39Z pjb: or τ but it's probably already used.
2015-08-27T15:49:47Z Shinmera: z for Zeit, or any other language whose word for time is a different letter.
2015-08-27T15:50:30Z Shinmera: Colleen: do convert-to fraktur t
2015-08-27T15:50:30Z Colleen: 𝖙
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2015-08-27T15:51:32Z theos: T
2015-08-27T15:51:44Z jackdaniel: ↑
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2015-08-27T15:55:02Z pjb: 𐍄
2015-08-27T15:55:19Z pjb: Ｔｔ
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2015-08-27T15:55:48Z theos doesnt have fraktur
2015-08-27T15:55:50Z jackdaniel: |time| ;-)
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2015-08-27T15:56:05Z pjb: Ⲧⲧ
2015-08-27T15:56:29Z Shinmera: Colleen: do convert-to circles t
2015-08-27T15:56:29Z Colleen: ⓣ
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2015-08-27T15:57:08Z pjb: ʇ
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2015-08-27T15:57:21Z Shinmera: Colleen: do convert-to tiny t
2015-08-27T15:57:21Z Colleen: ᵗ
2015-08-27T15:57:24Z pjb: there's a lot of choice.
2015-08-27T15:57:27Z jackdaniel: |t|, sorry
2015-08-27T15:57:37Z pjb: even without going to exotic characters.
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2015-08-27T15:59:51Z optikalmouse: hunchentoot is still a solid web server yeah? I’m thinking of doing a small REST API with CL
2015-08-27T15:59:51Z minion: optikalmouse, memo from jasom: I'm a contributor to parenscript, so let me know if you have any questions about it
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2015-08-27T16:00:20Z Shinmera: optikalmouse: sure.
2015-08-27T16:00:29Z optikalmouse: jasom: have you used parenscript with reactjs or angular or jquery or some other libs?
2015-08-27T16:00:31Z Shinmera: Just don't have it facing to the public without a proxy.
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2015-08-27T16:08:54Z lambda-smith: Shinmera, how's your game coming along?
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2015-08-27T16:11:19Z Shinmera: I haven't worked further on it after the LD deadline.
2015-08-27T16:11:24Z Shinmera: I'm working on Flare though.
2015-08-27T16:12:00Z lambda-smith: Awww really? That's a shame. I like where it's going.
2015-08-27T16:12:15Z lambda-smith: OTOH, Flare is looking very interesting.
2015-08-27T16:12:16Z Shinmera: I didn't say I would cease working on it forever. Other things just take priority.
2015-08-27T16:12:26Z Shinmera: Plus, it uses Flare, so that's directly related.
2015-08-27T16:12:26Z lambda-smith: That's good to hear.
2015-08-27T16:12:47Z lambda-smith: Love watching your live coding, btw (and live painting too)
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2015-08-27T16:13:04Z Shinmera: Glad to hear! I'm looking forward to doing it again.
2015-08-27T16:13:13Z lambda-smith: :D
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2015-08-27T16:13:37Z lambda-smith: BTW, what Emacs package did you used for the file and foler tree? ECB?
2015-08-27T16:13:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, it's ECB.
2015-08-27T16:14:00Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-ecb.el
2015-08-27T16:14:24Z lambda-smith: Neat, and I thought ECB can only be used with C/C++ projects.
2015-08-27T16:14:41Z Shinmera: It's probably overkill to use it just for the browser, but I couldn't find anything else.
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2015-08-27T16:15:26Z Shinmera: Whoops, dinner calls. I'll be back later.
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2015-08-27T16:17:19Z lambda-smith: See ya
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2015-08-27T16:42:47Z jasom: minion: memo for optikalmouse: https://github.com/jasom/parenscriptx/ no documentation or examples yet.  I'll let you know when I have them
2015-08-27T16:42:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell optikalmouse when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-27T16:45:03Z jasom: oh actually there appears to be a port of the basic ReactJS example in there after all
2015-08-27T16:45:24Z jasom: though it doesn't need the jsx trasformer
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2015-08-27T16:52:12Z Shinmera: jasom: Ahh, right. Your project is what I was thinking of earlier.
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2015-08-27T17:22:29Z moredhel: hi all, anyone know of a way to create a blocking call in lisp?
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2015-08-27T17:23:33Z Shinmera: Blocking on what?
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2015-08-27T17:25:20Z moredhel: I'm attempting to deploy a clack project, so am using the following: (save-lisp-and-die "example.app" :executable t :toplevel #:deploy-app)
2015-08-27T17:25:38Z jasom: right
2015-08-27T17:25:57Z moredhel: I assume there is a better way to do this. like not forking into the background?
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2015-08-27T17:26:07Z moredhel: (running clack)
2015-08-27T17:26:13Z jasom: clack doesn't fork, it spawns a thread
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2015-08-27T17:27:03Z jasom: (just saw your question in #lispweb)
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2015-08-27T17:27:30Z moredhel: hehe :), it's pretty quiet, so thought I would ask here
2015-08-27T17:27:56Z jasom: passing :threaded nil to clackup will make it not background, but it will also make it single-threaded (depending on which backend you use)
2015-08-27T17:28:31Z jasom: 1 sec, let me check exactly how that works
2015-08-27T17:28:54Z moredhel: using huchentoot, was actually curious as to how much of a difference this makes/whether there is a recommended backend
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2015-08-27T17:30:38Z jasom: oh, it's :use-thread and all of the handlers seem to ignore that option, so it should be safe to do :use-thread nil from clackup
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2015-08-27T17:32:57Z jasom: you could also just end with a (loop (sleep 10000)) or something
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2015-08-27T17:33:41Z moredhel: alright, I'll try that :)
2015-08-27T17:33:45Z moredhel: ah! do is a much better idea
2015-08-27T17:33:54Z moredhel: I was gonna use recursion but was worried about the stack
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2015-08-27T17:36:56Z moredhel: success :)
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2015-08-27T17:37:03Z moredhel: threading worked, thank you
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2015-08-27T19:04:23Z fisslgegriff: what is the idiomatic way to autoload quicklisp in SLIME on startup?
2015-08-27T19:05:34Z Shinmera: ql:add-to-init-file
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2015-08-27T19:05:44Z antoszka: fisslgegriff: I just keep it in my standard init file
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2015-08-27T19:05:52Z antoszka: fisslgegriff: will work both for SLIME and shell sessions
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2015-08-27T19:11:17Z jasom: Anyone know if esrap won't backtrack in this case (and (or foo bar) baz)?  i.e. is the rule equivalent to (or (and foo baz) (and bar baz))
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2015-08-27T19:13:31Z jasom: hmmm, it appears not-to in this more concrete example: (esrap:parse '(and (or (* #\Space ) character) #\Space) "  ")
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2015-08-27T19:25:37Z jasom: And here's the line from the docs telling me exactly that: "Subexpressions are checked strictly in the specified order, and once a subexpression succeeds no further ones will be tried."
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2015-08-27T19:28:13Z Oladon boggles.
2015-08-27T19:28:17Z Oladon: Xach: that guy is crazy.
2015-08-27T19:29:50Z dwchandler: I've interacted with that guy on twitter before. He seemed ok for a while, and then he'd fly off the handle into bizarro world
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2015-08-27T19:32:45Z Oladon: I want to join the Common Lisp Mafia... that sounds fun.
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2015-08-27T19:37:27Z Xof: it's a bit overrated
2015-08-27T19:37:34Z Xof: you don't get good healthcare
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2015-08-27T19:38:57Z Oladon: but the healthcare software is all in Lisp, right?
2015-08-27T19:39:02Z Oladon: That'd make up for it.
2015-08-27T19:39:12Z fisslgegriff: I wish
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2015-08-27T19:39:43Z fisslgegriff: from my experience in the healthcare industry the US infrastructure is fucked
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2015-08-27T19:39:58Z Oladon: fisslgegriff: we're talking about the Common Lisp Mafia healthcare software.
2015-08-27T19:40:18Z fisslgegriff: yeah I'm going off on a tangent
2015-08-27T19:41:17Z fisslgegriff: I actually used an emacs tcp frontend on a dynamic .NET endpoint to do automation work it was disgusting
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2015-08-27T19:42:15Z fisslgegriff: our project management software was an excel spreadsheet we reviewed twice a week, manually, row by row, manually entering in server names, deployment steps, and deploy contacts
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2015-08-27T19:43:23Z fisslgegriff: thanks to some moronic DoD SDLC procedures outlined in the late 90s
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2015-08-27T19:44:21Z fisslgegriff: thanks to the amount of human verification and procedure involved at every step of development and review I put out maybe 2-3 lines of code a month
2015-08-27T19:44:47Z ehu: fisslgegriff: that's a lot.
2015-08-27T19:45:12Z ehu: fisslgegriff: at my current contract, I managed to get a release to production more than 9 months after the last one.
2015-08-27T19:45:17Z fisslgegriff: thats C#/SQL/HTML SLOC
2015-08-27T19:45:38Z ehu: and the number of new functionalities fit on the fingers of 1 hand.
2015-08-27T19:45:43Z ehu: oh. that includes fixes.
2015-08-27T19:46:22Z fisslgegriff: job security silos are a bitch, old people are afraid of automation, kill the baby boomers
2015-08-27T19:46:45Z oleo: dude erry boom has a doom
2015-08-27T19:46:50Z oleo: lol
2015-08-27T19:47:23Z fisslgegriff: theyre the most disgusting group of people history has ever seen
2015-08-27T19:47:37Z Oladon: I think we're off-topic.
2015-08-27T19:48:08Z ehu: heh. yup.
2015-08-27T19:48:11Z jasom: Zhivago: I disagree that currying plus single-dispatch is sufficient for multiple-dispatch
2015-08-27T19:48:45Z fisslgegriff: has anyone had any success with cleaning up clojure error stacks
2015-08-27T19:48:59Z Oladon: Try #clojure
2015-08-27T19:49:44Z jasom: Zhivago: consider two methods that match: (t foo bar) and (baz t t); with single-dispatch and currying arguments of type (baz foo bar) will always have to match the second one.  This is not the case in CLOS though.
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2015-08-27T19:58:11Z optikalmouse: I wonder if there’s an ACM channel somewhere.
2015-08-27T19:58:11Z minion: optikalmouse, memo from jasom: https://github.com/jasom/parenscriptx/ no documentation or examples yet.  I'll let you know when I have them
2015-08-27T19:58:41Z optikalmouse: jasom: very awesome
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2015-08-27T21:45:21Z norfumpit: how would one get the slime repl to return to the point where you pressed return after evaluating the input. like eshell's em-smart. i got this http://paste.lisp.org/display/154373 but it doesn't work
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2015-08-27T22:23:21Z resttime: hahaha, i just realized that cooking an omelet is like performing a #'reduce on a list of ingredients
2015-08-27T22:23:42Z resttime: i realized that because i literally folded the omelet
2015-08-27T22:24:02Z resttime: put some mozzarella cheese between the fold
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2015-08-27T22:29:21Z PuercoPop: norfumpit: What exactly do you want? For the input to remain and cursor to remain in the same column? (Btw you may get better answers in #emacs)
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2015-08-28T00:56:23Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a lisp dialect designed to write compilers?
2015-08-28T00:56:40Z Zhivago: Well, if you consider macros to be retarded compilers ...
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2015-08-28T00:57:44Z John[Lisbeth]: What do you mean?
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2015-08-28T00:58:20Z Zhivago: Well, what is a macro?
2015-08-28T00:58:35Z jeadre joined #lisp
2015-08-28T00:58:47Z John[Lisbeth]: [To me a macro is a keybinding.]
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2015-08-28T01:00:22Z John[Lisbeth]: [What is your definition of a macro?]
2015-08-28T01:00:31Z resttime: Macros in lisp are way different from what you're thinking
2015-08-28T01:01:21Z resttime: They are code that writes code
2015-08-28T01:01:27Z Zhivago: They're language extensions, effectively.
2015-08-28T01:01:54Z John[Lisbeth]: [How do you solve issues with namespace?]
2015-08-28T01:01:58Z Zhivago: (loop for i from 1 to 20 collect i) <-- an example.
2015-08-28T01:02:07Z Zhivago: What issues with namespace?
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2015-08-28T01:02:39Z John[Lisbeth]: [Nevermind. Let's talk more about macros.]
2015-08-28T01:02:45Z resttime: There are packages which contain symbols?
2015-08-28T01:03:18Z White_Flame: Lisp macros are effectively functions that take source code and return source code.  In Lisp, source code is effectively already an AST in simple nested list format.
2015-08-28T01:03:24Z White_Flame: so, compilers are easy
2015-08-28T01:03:27Z Zhivago: So there's a macro definition which translates that loop example into code that doesn't involve loop.
2015-08-28T01:03:46Z resttime: Another basic usage of macros would just be inlining code
2015-08-28T01:03:57Z John[Lisbeth]: [AST?]
2015-08-28T01:04:05Z White_Flame: abstract syntax tree
2015-08-28T01:04:15Z White_Flame: if you're seeking to write compilers, hopefully that acronym is already familiar to you
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2015-08-28T01:04:23Z Zhivago: Fortunately you don't need macros for inlining in CL, since CL has inlining.
2015-08-28T01:04:45Z John[Lisbeth]: [I didn't know until today that compilers might be what I was interested in. And compilers are just an analogy for what I really mean.]
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2015-08-28T01:06:02Z John[Lisbeth]: [My project started when I watched a video about the original intentions of UNIX, and how programming could be accomplished by piping smaller programs together.]
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2015-08-28T01:06:22Z John[Lisbeth]: [That way you would only need to build a bunch of small tools, and you could build them in whatever programming language you want.]
2015-08-28T01:06:47Z White_Flame: the Unix model is really outdated.  Piping unstructured bytes is a very cumbersom model.  It worked back when computers were dealing with simpler data.
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2015-08-28T01:07:02Z John[Lisbeth]: [And although it didn't turn out this way, it was hoped that shell scripts could be deployed as standalone enterprise projects rather than just personal scripts.]
2015-08-28T01:07:12Z White_Flame: btw, what's with the square brackets?
2015-08-28T01:07:16Z John[Lisbeth]: [And yet today there are very few major projects written as shell scripts that are successful.]
2015-08-28T01:07:30Z John[Lisbeth]: [Brackets are for me personally, don't mind them.]
2015-08-28T01:07:40Z Adlai: veteran lisper retinas automatically filter rounded ones
2015-08-28T01:07:55Z John[Lisbeth]: [So I got to programming in bash and I ran into alot of trouble with the syntax.]
2015-08-28T01:08:02Z akkad: how hard is it to get the reader to parse [ as (?
2015-08-28T01:08:16Z John[Lisbeth]: [What I was basically trying to do in bash was pass a function like you can do in haskell or racket.]
2015-08-28T01:08:18Z Adlai: clhs set-macro-character
2015-08-28T01:08:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
2015-08-28T01:08:28Z White_Flame: John[Lisbeth]:  yeah, bash and such are geared as glue for commandline oriented processing
2015-08-28T01:08:35Z akkad can't afford LW just for tht
2015-08-28T01:08:38Z John[Lisbeth]: [The people in bash worked with me for two weeks until they said that bash asbolutely could not do what I want it to do, and that haskell was the language I wanted.]
2015-08-28T01:09:03Z White_Flame: You still haven't gotten around to saying what you actually want to do
2015-08-28T01:09:15Z John[Lisbeth]: [The problem is that haskell has problems with packaging, and there aren't alot of shell options for haskell.]
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2015-08-28T01:09:28Z Adlai: akkad: you can't even afford an http request to a gratis copy of reference materials?
2015-08-28T01:09:32Z John[Lisbeth]: [I am trying to pick a scripting language so I can distribute scripts instead of binaries.]
2015-08-28T01:09:49Z White_Flame: Python is pretty popular for that
2015-08-28T01:10:22Z John[Lisbeth]: [I am not sure python meets my parameters but I could give it a shot.]
2015-08-28T01:10:22Z White_Flame: Lisp can certainly do it, but the cmdline launch particulars are implementation-dependent
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2015-08-28T01:10:43Z Adlai: there's a library that wraps the differences... roswell?
2015-08-28T01:10:48Z John[Lisbeth]: [cmdline launch particulars?]
2015-08-28T01:11:56Z Adlai: https://github.com/snmsts/roswell
2015-08-28T01:11:57Z White_Flame: sbcl --script foo.lisp, vs ccl64 -b < foo.lisp, or whatever
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2015-08-28T01:12:46Z Adlai points all new lispers to http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/ (which could even go in the channel topic)
2015-08-28T01:13:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I am pretty sure ros isn't what I want.
2015-08-28T01:13:39Z John[Lisbeth]: Becuase ros is a command.
2015-08-28T01:14:02Z White_Flame: Python etc also need the python binaries installed, so no matter what you do you'll need prerequisites
2015-08-28T01:14:16Z White_Flame: if you write bash scripts, Windows users will need cygwin or equivalent, etc
2015-08-28T01:14:17Z Adlai: check out uiop for doing "shell script" tasks
2015-08-28T01:14:51Z John[Lisbeth]: The problem is I don't want to spend the time to learn lisp and then figure out it's not what I need.
2015-08-28T01:15:01Z White_Flame: you still haven't stated what you need
2015-08-28T01:15:17Z White_Flame: as there are obviously still predicates involved but not yet discussed
2015-08-28T01:15:26Z Adlai: you can do anything with lisp, although if your most pressing need is script distribution, your targets better already have some lisp installed
2015-08-28T01:15:28Z John[Lisbeth]: [Whatever it is, it has to have a strong shell.]
2015-08-28T01:15:48Z John[Lisbeth]: [It needs to be able to borrow from other dialects and even other programming languages.]
2015-08-28T01:15:48Z White_Flame: "a strong shell" is a very vague, subjective description
2015-08-28T01:15:52Z Adlai: cl + uiop is all the shell you'll ever need.
2015-08-28T01:15:53Z akkad: or use deliver/save-list-and-die
2015-08-28T01:16:00Z John[Lisbeth]: [For example I consider bash to be a very weak shell for scripting.]
2015-08-28T01:16:06Z Adlai: akkad: he doesn't want to deliver binaries
2015-08-28T01:16:07Z White_Flame: CL can borrow from anything; it's the most plastic language out there
2015-08-28T01:16:21Z John[Lisbeth]: CL?
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2015-08-28T01:16:28Z Adlai: Common Lisp
2015-08-28T01:16:38Z John[Lisbeth]: how do you borrow?
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2015-08-28T01:17:07Z Adlai: you can implement any feature from any language in lisp, although it may take some work
2015-08-28T01:17:08Z White_Flame: John[Lisbeth]: generally by implementing macros that create functionality which mirrors other languages.  Either that, or use FFI but that involves foreign-language binaries
2015-08-28T01:17:18Z Adlai really wishes John[Lisbeth] would read about uiop already
2015-08-28T01:17:40Z John[Lisbeth]: I am ok with using foreign language binaries as long as those are commands.
2015-08-28T01:17:41Z White_Flame: John[Lisbeth]: these are all external requirements you've established, but aren't the primary driver of what you want
2015-08-28T01:17:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Or some kind of library.
2015-08-28T01:18:09Z John[Lisbeth]: [It's hard to explain what I want.]
2015-08-28T01:18:30Z John[Lisbeth]: [I want a really good shell that can run all the old legacy stuff, but that can also do some smappier things like functional programming.]
2015-08-28T01:18:45Z Adlai: common lisp can do anything.
2015-08-28T01:18:46Z White_Flame: then write a new shell
2015-08-28T01:18:48Z jeadre quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-08-28T01:18:48Z Adlai: and everything.
2015-08-28T01:18:50Z John[Lisbeth]: [But I think most importantly what I am trying to do is escape compiling.]
2015-08-28T01:18:52Z White_Flame: you're talking about inventing a language, basically
2015-08-28T01:18:54Z rme: John[Lisbeth]: A Common Lisp implementation is probably not what you want.
2015-08-28T01:18:58Z White_Flame: CL is a great system for creating languages
2015-08-28T01:19:16Z White_Flame: but whenever you deploy, you'll have to require the targets to have your custom language support already installed
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2015-08-28T01:19:17Z John[Lisbeth]: [Lisp is one of the strong candidates, but I am not convinced yet.]
2015-08-28T01:19:29Z Adlai: rme: it is, assuming he's willing to ask his distribution targets to install lisp
2015-08-28T01:19:29Z White_Flame: in order to run scripts for your custom language
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2015-08-28T01:19:47Z John[Lisbeth]: [You are referring to writing my own lisp dialect, correct?]
2015-08-28T01:19:55Z White_Flame: whether it's lisp or not
2015-08-28T01:20:10Z John[Lisbeth]: [That's certainly intriguing.]
2015-08-28T01:20:11Z White_Flame: but CL is a good bootstrapping environment for creating langauges
2015-08-28T01:20:13Z resttime: it kind of sounds like you want a lisp OS
2015-08-28T01:20:16Z Adlai: no, we're referring to installing python, or lisp, or bash; scripts are executed by some program, and that needs to be installed
2015-08-28T01:20:44Z John[Lisbeth]: [Well consider how firefox does it.]
2015-08-28T01:20:46Z Adlai wonders why John[Lisbeth] is "trying to pick a scripting language so I can distribute scripts instead of binaries."
2015-08-28T01:20:56Z John[Lisbeth]: [HTML is not compiled. A program with preset functions runs what is inside.]
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2015-08-28T01:21:06Z Adlai: what's so bad about binaries? sign them, and provide source in case people don't trust you and want to build their own.
2015-08-28T01:21:08Z John[Lisbeth]: [HTML is one of the most successful languages ever.]
2015-08-28T01:21:10Z White_Flame: same for bash, or python, or lisp, etc
2015-08-28T01:21:20Z White_Flame: there's tons of languages with source-form distribution as standard
2015-08-28T01:21:24Z John[Lisbeth]: [Along with HTTP, TCIP, and alot more.]
2015-08-28T01:21:34Z John[Lisbeth]: [I think I meant to say TCPIP.]
2015-08-28T01:21:46Z White_Flame: TCP/IP isn't a language.  HTTP is a protocol as well
2015-08-28T01:22:00Z Adlai starts to feel a little trolled
2015-08-28T01:22:00Z John[Lisbeth]: [The problem with binaries is that you have to package them.]
2015-08-28T01:22:07Z John[Lisbeth]: [I assure you I am not trolling.]
2015-08-28T01:22:11Z Adlai: [OK]
2015-08-28T01:22:44Z John[Lisbeth]: [Let me just try to explain what I am getting at so far. What is recnetly in my mind.]
2015-08-28T01:23:10Z John[Lisbeth]: [What I have been trying to do is to understand everything functionally, in the haskell sense. Explain all the math in the universe in functions.]
2015-08-28T01:23:38Z John[Lisbeth]: [But now I think what I am actually looking for is a compiler.]
2015-08-28T01:23:46Z Adlai: please stop enclosing everything in brackets. it's distracting.
2015-08-28T01:24:05Z John[Lisbeth]: [I need to enclose them in brackets. Sorry.]
2015-08-28T01:24:15Z White_Flame: there's plenty of lines above where you didn't
2015-08-28T01:24:19Z Adlai: [but you don't enclose every single line with them]
2015-08-28T01:24:22Z John[Lisbeth]: [Merely because I forgot.]
2015-08-28T01:24:28Z Adlai: [lol mkay]
2015-08-28T01:24:41Z John[Lisbeth]: [If we get sidetracked this conversation will take longer than it needs to. I simply need to finish my thought so you know what I mean.]
2015-08-28T01:24:43Z Adlai: can you please make me a grilled cheese sandwich, but forget to put the cheese in?
2015-08-28T01:25:18Z Adlai: this conversation has already taken longer than it needs to. you should distribute python scripts.
2015-08-28T01:25:32Z John[Lisbeth]: [You haven't explained why that is.]
2015-08-28T01:25:35Z Adlai: you can do everything with a python script, that you could do with lisp
2015-08-28T01:25:45Z Adlai: and the chance of your deployment targets having python installed is far, far, greater.
2015-08-28T01:25:51Z John[Lisbeth]: [But is there a python shell?]
2015-08-28T01:26:07Z White_Flame: any language with a REPL can function as a shell
2015-08-28T01:26:19Z John[Lisbeth]: [I don't want to go build a shell.]
2015-08-28T01:26:24Z John[Lisbeth]: [I want to steal as much code as I can.]
2015-08-28T01:26:24Z Adlai: python can be used as a shell, although i'm not sure why you need to if you're distributing a script
2015-08-28T01:26:43Z Adlai: [I'm starting to wonder whether John[Lisbeth] is an AI trying to take over the world]
2015-08-28T01:26:59Z White_Flame: you're not going to find pre-built good shells for python/lisp/etc, because good programmers don't see a need to replicate functionality that already exists
2015-08-28T01:27:01Z John[Lisbeth]: [Just trying to shake things loose.]
2015-08-28T01:27:19Z John[Lisbeth]: [I do see the need to do that.]
2015-08-28T01:27:20Z White_Flame: and fiddling around with contextual character-based parsing is a nuisance best avoided
2015-08-28T01:27:54Z Adlai: [The Gordian Knot was neither stirred nor shaken]
2015-08-28T01:28:26Z John[Lisbeth]: [This is what I don't like IRC. Most channels are purely support based and never allow any discussion.]
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2015-08-28T01:28:37Z resttime: maybe SCSH might be of interest?
2015-08-28T01:28:50Z Adlai: resttime: don't help it, existential risks etc etc
2015-08-28T01:28:52Z John[Lisbeth]: [So I go to different channels asking them questions trying to figure out if their language is right for me, and instead they want me to go read a bunch of books then come back to them.]
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2015-08-28T01:29:06Z Adlai: [Lazy grad students, go steal some OCR code]
2015-08-28T01:29:20Z White_Flame: [A shell is just syntactic sugar on top of filesystem & process launch operations, plus some extra utility to manage simple processing.]
2015-08-28T01:29:20Z John[Lisbeth]: [When asking them questions eliminates the languages that don't work much faster. And then I don't have to keep coming back.]
2015-08-28T01:29:44Z Adlai: [Lisp is not a language, jutht a thpeechth impediment]
2015-08-28T01:29:46Z White_Flame: [You have all that functionality in any programming language, just from a processing oriented syntax rather than a launching & passing syntax]
2015-08-28T01:30:05Z John[Lisbeth]: [Maybe that's what I want is syntactic sugar.]
2015-08-28T01:30:09Z White_Flame: [The problem is that your descriptions don't really have much grounding, therefore people ask you to go read grounding materials]
2015-08-28T01:30:30Z Adlai: [This is also why sane countries have grounding as a basic dependency of their power systems]
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2015-08-28T01:31:10Z John[Lisbeth]: [What I am trying to do is achieve "the unix way" in terms of programing with shell scripting.]
2015-08-28T01:31:23Z John[Lisbeth]: [Building lots of little programs that work on top of each other.]
2015-08-28T01:31:32Z White_Flame: ["the unix way" is not a desirable approach]
2015-08-28T01:31:37Z John[Lisbeth]: [Why?]
2015-08-28T01:31:37Z Adlai: [A better approach for synthetic organisms is "the microsoft way", ie, surveillence and backwards compatibility]
2015-08-28T01:31:48Z White_Flame: [because it's all undemarcated streams of bytes]
2015-08-28T01:32:12Z John[Lisbeth]: [Explain waht you mean by taht, White_Flame.]
2015-08-28T01:32:36Z White_Flame: [in "the unix way", every single program needs its own text or byte serializers & deserializers]
2015-08-28T01:32:49Z White_Flame: [when it comes to text, it's all a bunch of parsers that share no exact semantics]
2015-08-28T01:32:53Z White_Flame: [it's crap]
2015-08-28T01:33:18Z White_Flame: [I'd actually suggest the Erlang model as something to try to spark better ideas, as it has a more proper message passing format]
2015-08-28T01:33:36Z White_Flame: [though I'm not a fan of the langauge's syntax and hoops to work around functional restrictions]
2015-08-28T01:35:34Z White_Flame: [basically, any time you have communicating processes, you need a known protocol that each can talk]
2015-08-28T01:35:46Z White_Flame: [streams of bytes are simple, but uselessly so for general use]
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2015-08-28T01:38:49Z John[Lisbeth]: [I want to solve that problem.]
2015-08-28T01:39:02Z John[Lisbeth]: [But in a different way than sh tried to.]
2015-08-28T01:39:03Z White_Flame: [That would be a design problem, not a language use problem]
2015-08-28T01:39:17Z resttime: (It really sounds like you want a lisp OS)
2015-08-28T01:39:57Z kristof: Is my weechat configuration messed up, because all of these messages are closed in brackets
2015-08-28T01:40:17Z resttime: (Though I don't really know because I still don't fully understand what's being asked)
2015-08-28T01:40:27Z White_Flame: resttime: same here
2015-08-28T01:40:45Z White_Flame: kristof: John[Lisbeth] refused to stop using them, so including them makes the text less jarring
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2015-08-28T01:41:56Z kristof: I'm going to read the logs and see what's being said.
2015-08-28T01:42:12Z Adlai: http://i.imgur.com/ukWW7Yb.png
2015-08-28T01:42:16Z Adlai saves kristof the trouble
2015-08-28T01:44:10Z kristof: looks like gibberish to me.
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2015-08-28T01:44:51Z Adlai: don't waste your time.
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2015-08-28T01:51:46Z jaconwil: what is up with several people putting [] around their messages? is it some irc client that does it?
2015-08-28T01:52:14Z White_Flame: <White_Flame> kristof: John[Lisbeth] refused to stop using them, so including them makes the text less jarring
2015-08-28T01:52:41Z jaconwil: lol
2015-08-28T01:53:33Z Adlai still has it on the other line, while the FBI agents trace the call
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2015-08-28T01:57:02Z resttime: I'm still curious, it's like a puzzle :)
2015-08-28T01:57:13Z resttime: I think he's talking about dynamic typing
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2015-08-28T01:57:39Z resttime: and functions living as programs
2015-08-28T01:58:05Z resttime: and an easy way to pipe these programs together to get the output you want
2015-08-28T01:58:12Z White_Flame: I think he's a non-programmer idealizing commanding computers to be easy
2015-08-28T01:58:51Z resttime: That just seems a lot like lisp because it is said that code is data and data is code  etc.
2015-08-28T01:59:31Z resttime: errr, what he was talking about, but yeah he seems to be non-programmer
2015-08-28T02:00:26Z resttime: Translating his concepts into something more relatable just seems like he wants a lisp os
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2015-08-28T02:03:01Z resttime: I don't have much knowledge of a Lisp OS but that's how I would imagine it to be based on XP I've had using Common Lisp
2015-08-28T02:04:18Z White_Flame: I've read a lot of the genera docs, but I don't think the inter-process sharing is based on communication pipes, since it all works on a shared heap
2015-08-28T02:05:07Z White_Flame: (and I'm not all that certain about that either)
2015-08-28T02:05:19Z Adlai: [let's not start this shit again]
2015-08-28T02:05:35Z White_Flame: yes, I was thinking of that as I was proper using parens as an aside comment
2015-08-28T02:05:44Z White_Flame: s/proper/properly/
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2015-08-28T02:06:37Z resttime: Oh, my impression is that a lot of what a program is kind of dissolves within the Lisp OS
2015-08-28T02:06:59Z resttime: err, what i would consider a program that is in modern OS
2015-08-28T02:07:03Z akkad: speaking of which, where is froggie?
2015-08-28T02:07:24Z Adlai: eh, any well-formed subset of a lisp OS is still a program
2015-08-28T02:07:28Z White_Flame: there are problems with a fully shared heap approach, though, like limiting certain processes (in the Lisp sense) to memory footprints, etc
2015-08-28T02:07:34Z White_Flame: as well as a permission model
2015-08-28T02:07:54Z akkad: hopefully lisp os does not go the unix multiuser route.
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2015-08-28T02:08:44Z Adlai: "lisp os" isn't going any route these days, at least, not too quickly
2015-08-28T02:08:51Z Adlai: plenty of time to divert it :)
2015-08-28T02:09:40Z White_Flame: I wouldn't want to host my SSH keys in a Lisp OS though
2015-08-28T02:09:52Z White_Flame: if it has no permission model
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2015-08-28T02:10:52Z White_Flame: of course, that's a longer view.  In the short term, its obscurity prevents it from being a malware target
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2015-08-28T02:11:07Z White_Flame: but security via obscurity isn't a strategy
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2015-08-28T02:14:22Z White_Flame: I still think that a web browser with a Lisp-in-JS would be a good dynamic visual environment for Lisp
2015-08-28T02:14:59Z White_Flame: there's a fair amoun of CLIMness to dynamic web pages
2015-08-28T02:16:01Z veckon: Does anyone know if make-typed-aref-vector in LispWorks returns an array as if were created with :allocation :static?
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2015-08-28T02:43:06Z akkad: security through minority
2015-08-28T02:43:36Z akkad: a non-obscure password is not secure
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2015-08-28T02:43:56Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: have a look at clash.
2015-08-28T02:44:20Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: http://www.clisp.org/clash.html
2015-08-28T02:44:23Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: also scsh.
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2015-08-28T02:48:18Z theos: funny people on #lisp everyday
2015-08-28T02:49:55Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: compare: (defun a (x y) (prin1-to-string (+ (read-from-string x) (read-from-string y)))) (defun m (x y)  (prin1-to-string (* (read-from-string x) (read-from-string y)))  (a "1" (m "2" "3"))   vs. (defun a (x y) (+ x y)) (defun m (x y) (* x y)) (a 1 (m 2 3)) ; the former is unix style; the later is lisp style.  Just "pipe" small lisp functions. (the syntax is different, if you want to write  cat 1;((cat 2 ; cat 3)|m)|a
2015-08-28T02:49:55Z pjb: instead, you can develop the required parser.
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2015-08-28T02:50:21Z pjb: s/cat/echo/
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2015-08-28T03:15:59Z Saigut: which is better between Common Lisp the Language, 2nd Edition and Practical Common Lisp?
2015-08-28T03:16:29Z Adlai: the latter.
2015-08-28T03:16:29Z Bike: one is a semi-standard, one is a tutorial book
2015-08-28T03:16:39Z Bike: so, whichever of those you want is the better
2015-08-28T03:16:44Z Adlai: the former, while being a standard, is outdated.
2015-08-28T03:18:09Z John[Lisbeth]: [I've been gone and I'm catching up.]
2015-08-28T03:18:19Z Bike: is this a stage direction?
2015-08-28T03:18:30Z pjb: But its comments and explaining sections were still highly regarded.
2015-08-28T03:19:01Z pjb: Saigut: you could read both.  Just be wary that a few things in CLtL2 didn't make into the CL standard.
2015-08-28T03:19:07Z John[Lisbeth]: [If it helps you guys, racket is a helll of alot closer to waht I want from a shell than bash.]
2015-08-28T03:19:11Z John[Lisbeth]: [I'll look into clash.]
2015-08-28T03:19:35Z pjb: I've been using clisp to write all my scripts for about 20 years now.
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2015-08-28T03:24:04Z akkad: [so is this just to annoy people?]
2015-08-28T03:26:07Z Saigut: pjb: maybe you are right, those two books seems be in diffierent style
2015-08-28T03:26:57Z Saigut: CLtL2 like a reference book
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2015-08-28T03:27:31Z Saigut: Practical Common Lisp like to tell you the story
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2015-08-28T03:28:38Z Saigut: but sometime I have not enough patience to read the story,lol
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2015-08-28T03:36:20Z swflint_away is now known as swflint
2015-08-28T03:36:34Z Adlai suspects the brackets were due to positive feedback from a neural network, initially fed by their everpresence in the name
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2015-08-28T03:38:38Z Adlai: (in case anybody responsible is watching...)
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2015-08-28T03:47:32Z theos: [what brackets]
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2015-08-28T04:01:16Z pjb: Saigut: then just go read the hyperspec. no story, just the facts.
2015-08-28T04:01:40Z Adlai: minion: tell Saigut about clhs
2015-08-28T04:01:40Z minion: Saigut: have a look at clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS .
2015-08-28T04:01:44Z pjb: Saigut: notice that at 1100 pages, the hyperspec is not bigger than most books or pair of books.
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2015-08-28T04:03:56Z Bike: encouraging
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2015-08-28T04:18:23Z Saigut: pjb: sounds nice. thank you, sir
2015-08-28T04:27:51Z John[Lisbeth]: clisp?
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2015-08-28T05:28:44Z pillton: Is Parenscript supposed to treat (when 0 ...) correctly?
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2015-08-28T05:29:23Z sixyod: hi :)
2015-08-28T05:29:25Z H4ns: pillton: do you mean lisp-correctly or javascript-correctly?
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2015-08-28T05:29:54Z pillton: H4ns: The translation from lisp to javascript.
2015-08-28T05:29:56Z sixyod: i might find myself in this channel for the rest of my life possibly, have high interest learning lisp, perl, python
2015-08-28T05:30:37Z H4ns: pillton: parenscript does not have its own type system, so i'd expect it to act correctly in the javascript sense, treating 0 as falsy
2015-08-28T05:30:47Z H4ns: sixyod: enjoy!
2015-08-28T05:31:12Z sixyod: much appreciate H4ns
2015-08-28T05:31:18Z pillton: H4ns: Yes. 0 appears to be false in javascript.
2015-08-28T05:31:33Z pillton: H4ns: Is that a bug in Parenscript though?
2015-08-28T05:32:07Z H4ns: pillton: as parenscript does not have a type system on its own, there is no bug
2015-08-28T05:34:33Z H4ns: pillton: or am i misunderstanding and you observe that parenscript treats 0 as truthy?
2015-08-28T05:34:39Z pillton: "Parenscript code can run almost identically"....
2015-08-28T05:34:59Z H4ns: pillton: lies
2015-08-28T05:35:19Z akkad: is gpgme known to work?
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2015-08-28T05:57:26Z John[Lisbeth]: Sorry I was busy with a personal conversation.
2015-08-28T05:57:35Z John[Lisbeth]: The idea that i was having was if you build a language out of compilers.
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2015-08-28T05:58:14Z John[Lisbeth]: It would be interesting if you could write two differnet compilers for the same language.
2015-08-28T05:58:28Z John[Lisbeth]: With two differnet syntactic rules.
2015-08-28T05:58:43Z John[Lisbeth]: You make up the exact syntactic rules for the things you need, and then compile it
2015-08-28T05:59:00Z John[Lisbeth]: Eh my thoughts are getting lost again
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2015-08-28T06:00:05Z theos: atleast, the brackets are gone.
2015-08-28T06:00:25Z sixyod: John[Lisbeth]: never give up :)
2015-08-28T06:00:46Z sixyod: John[Lisbeth]: aim high, get lost deep
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2015-08-28T06:02:38Z John[Lisbeth]: Well compilers today for a language seem to have one set of rules
2015-08-28T06:02:48Z John[Lisbeth]: One set of syntactic rules that the whole language conforms to.
2015-08-28T06:03:02Z John[Lisbeth]: [But what if only the data conformed to a rigid set of rules.]
2015-08-28T06:03:16Z John[Lisbeth]: [The datatypes that is.]
2015-08-28T06:03:38Z John[Lisbeth]: [So you could compile two different programs, that followed different syntactic rules, but that are ultimately compatible.]
2015-08-28T06:03:44Z John[Lisbeth]: [cause they break down into the same logic.]
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2015-08-28T06:03:55Z John[Lisbeth]: [Even if the two dialects are not possible to exist in the same code.]
2015-08-28T06:04:38Z |3b| points at VPRI FONC stuff (cola etc), though you can get a bit of arbitrary syntax with CL reader macros
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2015-08-28T06:15:46Z John[Lisbeth]: [Can a lisp dialect use functions from another lisp dialect without accepting the syntax from it?]
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2015-08-28T06:17:03Z lieven: traditionally, in the mode line of a source file you could put Syntax: <whatever> and for example the symbolics environment adapted to that
2015-08-28T06:18:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Not sure what you mean.
2015-08-28T06:19:02Z John[Lisbeth]: I learn best by example.
2015-08-28T06:20:47Z John[Lisbeth]: CLaSH is really cool
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2015-08-28T06:21:53Z |3b|: "lisp dialects" don't do anything that concrete
2015-08-28T06:22:02Z |3b|: specific implementations can do whatever they are designed to do
2015-08-28T06:22:17Z |3b|: and since they are all turing complete, that includes implementing all of the others
2015-08-28T06:22:57Z John[Lisbeth]: [Well the language seems so fragmented.]
2015-08-28T06:22:58Z |3b|: 2 runtimes that aren't designed to work together will be annoying to use together even from the same language
2015-08-28T06:23:03Z John[Lisbeth]: [How do you get the pieces to communicate?]
2015-08-28T06:23:07Z |3b|: "the language"?
2015-08-28T06:23:23Z |3b|: this channel is about CL, which isn't any more fragmented than C or whatever
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2015-08-28T06:23:35Z John[Lisbeth]: [OH.]
2015-08-28T06:23:49Z John[Lisbeth]: [So is there a channel for all lisp dialects?]
2015-08-28T06:23:54Z |3b|: and talking about "lisp dialects" in general isn't much more useful than talking about "languages with {}" in general
2015-08-28T06:24:24Z |3b|: ##lisp i think is intended for all forms of lisp
2015-08-28T06:24:41Z John[Lisbeth]: [Okey, so then I don't just have to discuss the common lisp dialect?]
2015-08-28T06:25:12Z Shinmera: What's [with the] [[brackets]]. Can you [[[[stop]] this] crap]?
2015-08-28T06:25:22Z |3b|: discuss CL here (#lisp), other lisps in their own channels, or discuss any/all of them in ##lisp
2015-08-28T06:26:13Z John[Lisbeth]: [Would it make you fel better if I used a different character besides a bracket, Shinmera?]
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2015-08-28T06:26:29Z Shinmera: I'd prefer it if you didn't use a character at all and talked like everyone else.
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2015-08-28T06:27:01Z John[Lisbeth]: [I'm asking you to imagine that I have a very good reason for using these brackets, and wouldn't use them if I didn't need to.]
2015-08-28T06:27:12Z Shinmera: You don't have a very good reason.
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2015-08-28T06:27:23Z John[Lisbeth]: [Grow up.]
2015-08-28T06:27:25Z |3b|: even if you do, they are just noise to people who don't know it
2015-08-28T06:27:32Z John[Lisbeth]: [I can talk how I want. I use brackets. Sorry.]
2015-08-28T06:27:57Z Shinmera: You're just going to tick people off and get less info. Your loss I guess.
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2015-08-28T06:28:58Z John[Lisbeth]: [Thanks for understanding *^.^*]
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2015-08-28T06:30:40Z Shinmera: I'm not though.
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2015-08-28T06:39:58Z Zhivago: Perhaps he was dropped on his head as a child?
2015-08-28T06:40:20Z pjb: Happens.
2015-08-28T06:40:23Z Zhivago: Those brackets might be the only thing holding his brain in.
2015-08-28T06:40:58Z pjb: ##lisp is the best thing that occured to #lisp, ever.
2015-08-28T06:42:12Z Zhivago: What did it do?
2015-08-28T06:42:24Z Shinmera: Give us a place to >>redirect to.
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2015-08-28T06:44:55Z aeth: (Ugh, this is #lisp, we use parens instead of brackets here.)
2015-08-28T06:45:25Z Shinmera: We use whatever is appropriate, which is neither most of the time.
2015-08-28T06:48:30Z aeth: I will never not take the opportunity to make a parentheses joke.
2015-08-28T06:49:05Z Zhivago: ##lisp I'd like to talk about why you should not surround text with [].
2015-08-28T06:49:08Z Zhivago: Oops.
2015-08-28T06:49:10Z John[Lisbeth]: [I will gladly switch to brackets if you like.]
2015-08-28T06:49:18Z John[Lisbeth]: [Parentheses if you mean.]
2015-08-28T06:49:28Z Zhivago: How about switching to an empty string?
2015-08-28T06:49:34Z John[Lisbeth]: [Then you can think of what I am saying as "the function of (what I am saying)"]
2015-08-28T06:49:48Z John[Lisbeth]: [I need the brackets.]
2015-08-28T06:49:56Z Zhivago: Let me know if you want him quieted.
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2015-08-28T06:57:24Z theos: John[Lisbeth] you can use a space as the character instead of []
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2015-08-28T07:02:45Z John[Lisbeth]:  That would work.
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2015-08-28T07:10:25Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-08-28T07:27:59Z loke: I found another bug in cl-containers.
2015-08-28T07:27:59Z loke: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers/issues/8
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2015-08-28T11:13:36Z jackdaniel: could someone append "ECL 16.0.0" to the topic?
2015-08-28T11:13:48Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/ <- new release :)
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2015-08-28T11:17:21Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| ECL 16.0.0 ,CFFI 0.16.0, ASDF  3.1.5, cl-launch 4.1.4, SBCL 1.2.13, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
2015-08-28T11:17:44Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| ECL 16.0.0, CFFI 0.16.0, ASDF 3.1.5, cl-launch 4.1.4, SBCL 1.2.13, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
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2015-08-28T11:22:29Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-28T11:41:05Z chrnybo1: So, in "loop for x = x then (1+ x)", any outside definition of x is shadowed, even for the initialization step?
2015-08-28T11:41:19Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-08-28T11:41:55Z Shinmera: clhs 6.1.2.2
2015-08-28T11:41:55Z specbot: Local Variable Initializations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abb.htm
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2015-08-28T11:43:33Z Shinmera: Actually that's the wrong section, sorry
2015-08-28T11:43:46Z Shinmera: clhs 6.1.1.6
2015-08-28T11:43:46Z specbot: Order of Execution: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aaf.htm
2015-08-28T11:44:48Z Shinmera: clhs 6.1.1.4
2015-08-28T11:44:48Z specbot: Expanding Loop Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm
2015-08-28T11:44:50Z Shinmera: is also relevant.
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2015-08-28T12:42:39Z Cymew: What obvious thing am I missing? (find "she" "I wish she were here again" :test #'string-equal -> NIL
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2015-08-28T12:43:17Z jackdaniel: Cymew: (find '(1 2 3) '(8 1 2 3 5 8 9 0) :test #'equalp)
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2015-08-28T12:44:18Z jackdaniel: Cymew: you want search, not find
2015-08-28T12:44:26Z _death: Cymew: you want SEARCH.  FIND looks at elements (characters in your case) of the sequence (string in your case) one by one
2015-08-28T12:44:56Z Cymew facepalms
2015-08-28T12:45:02Z Cymew: Thanks!
2015-08-28T12:45:44Z Cymew: Hmm. Then REMOVE/DELETE is probably just like FIND, eh?
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2015-08-28T12:46:16Z Cymew: Apparently I have been way too deep into the numerical hole. I have forgotten all about text manipulating.
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2015-08-28T12:47:15Z ggole: You want something that is like search, but removes the matched elements?
2015-08-28T12:47:46Z Cymew: I started with searching, and now I guess I wont like what DELETE gives me either, yes.
2015-08-28T12:47:46Z jackdaniel: then you want lists, not arrays! :)
2015-08-28T12:48:25Z Cymew: Maybe this is why I used to use perl for text manipulation... ;)
2015-08-28T12:49:01Z Shinmera: No need for perl when you have cl-ppcre.
2015-08-28T12:49:44Z _death: you could (ab)use delete-if... e.g., (delete-if (constantly t) seq :start 3 :count 5)... but that has more points for Lisp trivia than for code clarity
2015-08-28T12:50:10Z Cymew: It feels a bit heavy handed to try to construct a regexp just to remove some text in the middle of a string, even if it is doable.
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2015-08-28T12:50:35Z jackdaniel: strings are hard (at least they always were for me)
2015-08-28T12:50:47Z Cymew: DELETE-IF and SUBSEQ and friends will come in handy, but not exactly clarity first, no.
2015-08-28T12:51:06Z jackdaniel: abstract this thing
2015-08-28T12:51:20Z jackdaniel: (defun chop (part str) (delete-if …))
2015-08-28T12:51:30Z Cymew: You bet I'll do.
2015-08-28T12:51:41Z Shinmera: Cymew: You don't need a fancy regex. Just your text (with regex characters potentially escaped) and cl-ppcre:regex-replace
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2015-08-28T12:52:31Z Cymew: I'd consider just about any regexp a fancy regexp, but I thank you for the pointer to regexp-replace.
2015-08-28T12:52:57Z jackdaniel: regexps made strings slighly easier (at least for me, again :p)
2015-08-28T12:53:05Z Shinmera: cl-ppcre is very fast anyway, so I doubt winging your own is gonna be a lot more efficient.
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2015-08-28T12:53:13Z Shinmera: Or more concise.
2015-08-28T12:53:22Z Cymew: I'm afraid you are right
2015-08-28T12:53:39Z Cymew: The day I try to out-code Edi I'm a goner...
2015-08-28T12:53:42Z Shinmera: Why afraid? Be happy that people did the work for you!
2015-08-28T12:53:49Z Cymew: ;)
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2015-08-28T12:56:41Z Cymew: My only problem is it takes me forever to create even a simple regexp, but cooking my own makes no sense.
2015-08-28T12:56:47Z Adlai: http://dpaste.com/1HG8VKY.txt
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2015-08-28T12:57:11Z _death: I really dislike regexes, so I'd just pick some existing string util lib or create my own
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2015-08-28T12:57:59Z jackdaniel: farewell Adlai
2015-08-28T12:58:19Z White_Flame: there's always the s-expression syntax for regexes in cl-ppcre
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2015-08-28T12:58:27Z White_Flame: instead of the line noise specifiers
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2015-08-28T13:00:57Z _death: White_Flame: preferable indeed, but still wary of use
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2015-08-28T13:10:21Z Cymew: No great luck with cl-ppcre so far.
2015-08-28T13:10:57Z lambda-smith: Hmmm... what's the best way to use djula with parenscript?
2015-08-28T13:11:12Z lambda-smith: It's obvious with CL-WHO, but I'm not sure how to proceed with djula
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2015-08-28T13:53:56Z flash-: I have a question about trivial-shell: I need to execute a command that works in a shell if I have executed a "source setup.bash" before. Executing the command with trivial-shell directly, does not work, but executing "source" with trivial-shell results in a "source: not found".
2015-08-28T13:54:41Z flash-: So can I "prepare" trivial-shell, so that I can execute the command that requires the setup?
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2015-08-28T14:01:23Z dlowe: flash-: you'd be better off doing "source setup.bash; dothething"
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2015-08-28T14:07:05Z flash-: dlowe: But if I try to run source with trivial-shell, I get "not found".
2015-08-28T14:07:22Z dlowe: sounds like trivial-shell isn't using bash
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2015-08-28T14:08:29Z flash-: Yes, that's what I thought. But do I have an alternative?
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2015-08-28T14:10:27Z dlowe: what's the value of trivial-shell::*bourne-compatible-shell*
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2015-08-28T14:11:00Z dlowe: are you using an absolute path for setup.bash?
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2015-08-28T14:12:13Z flash-: Sorry, I messed up. I'm using inferior-shell, not trivial-shell
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2015-08-28T14:13:39Z flash-: So there is no *bourne-compatible-shell*
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2015-08-28T14:14:06Z flash-: And yes, I am using an absolute path.
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2015-08-28T14:26:21Z flash-: dlowe: If I use trivial-shell (for real, this time), and set *bourne-compatible-shell to "/bin/bash", I can execute source, but with "source setup.bash; thecommand" the contents of setup.bash do not seem to have an effect on thecommand.
2015-08-28T14:27:46Z mood: eudoxia: I'm having a weird issue with Lucerne, am I doing something wrong?: 1. Start an app on port 5000. 2. Start another app on port 5001. -> Now the second app responds on both port 5000 and 5001
2015-08-28T14:28:05Z eudoxia: :|
2015-08-28T14:28:08Z dlowe: flash-: but they do if you enter it into the command line?
2015-08-28T14:28:08Z eudoxia: well that's strange
2015-08-28T14:28:37Z oleo: helloooo
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2015-08-28T14:29:59Z flash-: dlowe: Yes. thecommand can not be found if I do not execute setup.bash before.
2015-08-28T14:30:26Z flash-: There are also other consequences, otherwise, I could just use the full path of thecommand.
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2015-08-28T14:30:40Z eudoxia: mood: can confirm, will fix this afternoon
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2015-08-28T14:32:28Z dlowe: flash-: it may just be thecommand can't be found because you're doing it on the same line. Try using the full path and see if it works.
2015-08-28T14:33:35Z loke`: Is Fare around?
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2015-08-28T14:34:24Z flash-: dlowe: I already did, if I use the full path the command fails with error code 1, because it needs setup.bash to be run. If I use do not use the full path, I get an error code 127 (command not found).
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2015-08-28T14:41:27Z mood: eudoxia: Hmm, it might just be a Clack issue. The Hunchentoot handler completely replaces hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* with a single function that calls the newly started app.
2015-08-28T14:43:45Z dlowe: flash-: yeah, this is a weird bash thing
2015-08-28T14:44:12Z dlowe: bash -c "FOO=foo;echo $FOO" doesn't work either
2015-08-28T14:44:25Z dlowe: but FOO=foo;echo $FOO works fine interactively
2015-08-28T14:44:34Z dlowe: oh, wait. I'm dumb.
2015-08-28T14:44:50Z dlowe: didn't escape the $ in $FOO
2015-08-28T14:45:08Z dlowe: bash -c "source foo;echo \$FOO" works too
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2015-08-28T14:47:23Z eudoxia: mood: cool, it's a problem on the clack side
2015-08-28T14:48:06Z mood: eudoxia: I'll file an issue
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2015-08-28T14:52:38Z flash-: dlowe: Thanks you! I got it working with trivial-shell now. I must have done something else wrong with my last tries.
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2015-08-28T15:00:46Z mood: eudoxia: https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/issues/122
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2015-08-28T15:01:18Z eudoxia: mood: +1
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2015-08-28T15:57:30Z mood: eudoxia: And the issue is fixed on Clack master.
2015-08-28T15:57:37Z eudoxia: saw
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2015-08-28T16:03:17Z lambda-smith: Man, Fukamachi is quick
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2015-08-28T16:20:36Z sigjuice: is there a version of max and min that take a :key argument?
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2015-08-28T16:23:32Z varjag: sigjuice: you can probably do that with reduce
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2015-08-28T16:29:39Z sigjuice: (reduce #'max '(1 2 4 9 5) :key #'identity) ?
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2015-08-28T16:31:40Z hitecnologys: You don't need :key.
2015-08-28T16:31:51Z hitecnologys: Also, evade using QUOTE.
2015-08-28T16:32:33Z hitecnologys: sigjuice: well, I mean with #'identity case.
2015-08-28T16:32:44Z hitecnologys: sigjuice: unless that was an illustration, right?
2015-08-28T16:33:55Z sigjuice: hitecnologys: yes, #'identity was just an illustration
2015-08-28T16:34:02Z sigjuice: varjag: thanks!
2015-08-28T16:35:08Z hitecnologys: sigjuice: ah, OK, I see.
2015-08-28T16:40:52Z sigjuice: actually, reduce does not quite do what I want.  e.g. (reduce #'max '((13 . 0.033) (7 . 0.102) (11 . 0.038)) :key #'cdr) returns 0.102.  The result that I wanted was (7 . 0.102).
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2015-08-28T16:42:11Z jlarocco: is there an easy way to export all of the accessors for a structure created with defstruct?
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2015-08-28T16:43:52Z jlarocco: i vaguely remember reading somewhere that it's possible but not easy
2015-08-28T16:45:04Z jcowan: It should be straightforward to wrap it in a macro that invokes cl:defstruct
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2015-08-28T16:47:26Z ggole: (reduce (lambda (a b) (if (> (cdr a) (cdr b)) a b)) '((13 . 0.033) (7 . 0.102) (11 . 0.038)))
2015-08-28T16:47:43Z rme: I would just list exported symbols in the defpackage form.  I like to see all of them in one place.
2015-08-28T16:47:58Z dlowe: coi jcowan .i mi vi ue sanji do
2015-08-28T16:48:41Z jlarocco: yeah, right now I have defpackage and a single (:export ...) in package.lisp and the rest of the code, including the defstruct, is in a different file that's using in-package
2015-08-28T16:49:10Z scymtym: sigjuice: there is also (alexandria:extremum '((13 . 0.033) (7 . 0.102) (11 . 0.038)) #'> :key #'cdr)
2015-08-28T16:49:53Z jlarocco: I was hoping there was either a shorthand of some kind, like (:export my-struct-* ...) or a different defpackage keyword like :export-structure
2015-08-28T16:50:30Z jlarocco: I think I prefer just explicitly exporting them rather than breaking it up and using custom macros
2015-08-28T16:50:36Z jlarocco: sounds like more trouble than it's worth
2015-08-28T16:51:21Z rme: (:export "POINT" "POINT-X" "POINT-Y" ...)
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2015-08-28T16:52:26Z rme: Assuming (defstruct point x y) of course.
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2015-08-28T16:53:42Z jlarocco: yeah, which is easy for one struct with two elements, but gets tedious with multiple structs with 5 or 6 elements
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2015-08-28T16:54:49Z jlarocco: tbh, it's probably bad design to export them all outside of the package anyway, i mainly just want to use the struct from the repl for testing/debugging
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2015-08-28T16:57:50Z sigjuice: thanks ggole, scymtym
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2015-08-28T17:01:39Z varjag: sigjuice: reduce takes funarg, you can use any comparison/accessor within the lambda you supply
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2015-08-28T17:07:13Z varjag: sigjuice: e.g. (reduce #' (lambda (&optional a b) (when a (if (> (my-key a) (my-key b)) a b)))....)
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2015-08-28T17:20:28Z jasom: eudoxia: I'm almost to the debugging stage with my native yaml parser; I saw it on your wish-list from your "state of the CL ecosystem" post.
2015-08-28T17:20:58Z jasom: and I happen to think that writing parsers is fun, so I couldn't resist.
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2015-08-28T17:24:16Z scymtym: jasom: is the code available somewhere?
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2015-08-28T17:31:59Z jasom: github.com/jasom/nyaml
2015-08-28T17:32:09Z jasom: scymtym: not yet usable
2015-08-28T17:32:21Z jasom: but it can parse block and flow sequences and maps
2015-08-28T17:32:31Z scymtym: jasom: that's what i though. i'm just interested
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2015-08-28T17:33:10Z jasom: and do *not* copy the one macro I have in there.  It currently captures about a dozen variables, which is a non-issue in this code, but makes it unsuitable for general purpose use
2015-08-28T17:33:22Z scymtym: i started https://github.com/scymtym/parser.yaml some time ago
2015-08-28T17:34:23Z scymtym: got sidetracked by adding missing esrap to make the parser cleaner
2015-08-28T17:34:34Z scymtym: i'm just curious to see how you worked around the limitations
2015-08-28T17:34:35Z jasom: also just because one *can* abuse esrap to make a custom recursive-descent parser for a context sensitive language doesn't mean one *should*
2015-08-28T17:34:44Z jasom: scymtym: oh, I talked about that 2 or 3 days ago
2015-08-28T17:34:56Z jasom: the aforementioned ugly hack macro
2015-08-28T17:35:19Z scymtym: longer term, i would like to support parametrized rules with proper cache integration
2015-08-28T17:35:41Z scymtym: but that's in prototyping stage at best
2015-08-28T17:36:02Z jasom: ignoring cache integration, it's trivial tomodify esrap to  parameterize function rules
2015-08-28T17:36:19Z jasom: and I considered doing that and including a custom esrap.  I may still do that
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2015-08-28T17:39:31Z jasom: Instead I made a macro that lets me define parameterized function rules that call other parameterized function rules, and it works by dynamically binding functions to gensyms
2015-08-28T17:39:43Z jasom: s/functions/closures
2015-08-28T17:40:01Z scymtym: i did special variable + function terminals in my attempt
2015-08-28T17:40:33Z scymtym: i will have look at your code, thanks for sharing it
2015-08-28T17:40:35Z jasom: scymtym: I couldn't get that to play well with recursive parameterized rules
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2015-08-28T17:41:03Z jasom: I originally had a version that would generate a rule for every single possible combination of arguments, but esrap is very super-linear in runtime with number of rules.
2015-08-28T17:41:29Z jasom: even limiting the indentation to 10 spaces made it take minutes to compile before I was halfway through the grammar
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2015-08-28T17:42:06Z jasom: and at that it was only 40x in the worst case (10 indentation levels times 4 block/flow contexts)
2015-08-28T17:42:07Z eudoxia: jasom: nice
2015-08-28T17:42:49Z eudoxia: the YAML spec is horrifyingly large so this is great work
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2015-08-28T17:43:52Z jasom: eudoxia: right now I properly recognize anchors and tags, but they just produce garbage in the parse tree.  I designed it so that I should be able to fix that though.
2015-08-28T17:44:55Z eudoxia: cl-yaml skips anchors/references because those are hard :/
2015-08-28T17:45:12Z jasom: eudoxia: what about tags?
2015-08-28T17:45:19Z jasom: e.g. !foo!
2015-08-28T17:45:35Z eudoxia: ah i don't recall
2015-08-28T17:45:55Z jasom: anchors are actually easy for me to handle, tags that aren't in the standard schema would be a bit of a pain.
2015-08-28T17:46:00Z eudoxia: >(declare (ignore anchor tag))
2015-08-28T17:46:01Z eudoxia: ah fug
2015-08-28T17:46:26Z eudoxia: maybe some kind of callback system to parse tag objects, idk
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2015-08-28T17:47:37Z jasom: well my first order of business was "Parse files that only use the core schema in the same manner as cl-yaml"
2015-08-28T17:47:59Z jasom: and I'm almost done with that, but won't have much time to work on it until sometime next week.
2015-08-28T17:48:26Z jasom: My coding is almost all evening/weekends and my weekend is booked.
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2015-08-28T17:51:17Z eudoxia: no rush
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2015-08-28T17:59:06Z ebrasca: http://pastebin.com/N72qUfkY
2015-08-28T17:59:39Z ebrasca: why give me nil when i call my function from cl-raptor?
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2015-08-28T18:03:57Z ebrasca: when i call my function from l-system it work correctly but dont work from cl-raptor
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2015-08-28T18:11:14Z schjetne: ebrasca: it's really hard to see what's going on if you don't indent your code in the customary way.
2015-08-28T18:11:59Z schjetne: But try to identify which function behaves in an unexpected way
2015-08-28T18:12:48Z schjetne: Also, I don't know the definitions of any of those functions.
2015-08-28T18:15:55Z White_Flame: ebrasca: looks like a package issue
2015-08-28T18:16:15Z White_Flame: the symbols are likely pointing to something else when inside the cl-raptor package
2015-08-28T18:16:22Z White_Flame: however, I have no idea what they're supposed to be doing
2015-08-28T18:16:44Z White_Flame: kind of surprising that it's not just failing with unbound variable errors
2015-08-28T18:17:20Z ebrasca: thanks all , problem fixed
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2015-08-28T18:37:59Z francogrex: do you think it would be easy to implement objdump in lisp? I am trying to get inspired from this: https://github.com/luxsypher/nm-objdump
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2015-08-28T18:41:01Z schjetne: francogrex: FASL formats aren't terribly stable from version to version, I'd imagine it would be diffecult to get useful information out of them. Disassemble won't cut it?
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2015-08-28T18:41:09Z jlarocco: might be better to get inspiration from a project that doesn't check in .o and binary files ;-)
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2015-08-28T18:41:44Z jlarocco: if you mean implement "objdump in lisp" as dumping .o files like the project you linked to, I don't think it would be too hard
2015-08-28T18:41:51Z francogrex: yes the o and binary is sad but ok
2015-08-28T18:42:27Z schjetne: ah, I assumed you wanted to inspect FASLs
2015-08-28T18:42:40Z francogrex: schjetne: it's the trial and learning here more than the actual final utility..
2015-08-28T18:43:22Z francogrex: I wanted .o files but fasl files could also be intersting...
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2015-08-28T18:48:08Z jlarocco: wikipedia has links to the relevant specs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_and_Linkable_Format
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2015-08-28T18:50:29Z francogrex: jlarocco: thanks it may be better to start from specs than look into C and translate it to lisp it can turn messy
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2015-08-28T20:15:43Z jasom: Am I allowed to modify the list returned by multiple-value-list?
2015-08-28T20:16:48Z jasom:  "(multiple-value-list form) ==  (multiple-value-call #'list form)" makes me think I can
2015-08-28T20:17:12Z dlowe: jasom: pretty sure you can
2015-08-28T20:17:29Z dlowe: it's only quoted lists that are weird like that
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2015-08-28T20:19:42Z solyd_: how can i refer to a function from inside a lambda that calls that function?
2015-08-28T20:19:50Z solyd_: (defun foo () (lambda () (foo))
2015-08-28T20:20:42Z solyd_: oh nvm i was getting an error on something else :X
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2015-08-28T20:26:52Z White_Flame: solyd_: the only place you run into that would be within FLET.
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2015-08-28T20:54:21Z aeth: Has anyone integrated l1sp.org searching into emacs yet? It's more useful than search engines because you can e.g. search for #
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2015-08-28T20:55:17Z aeth: Naturally, search engines don't like "l1sp emacs" and "emacs l1sp" searches
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2015-08-28T20:58:20Z jihuang: I'm curious: How is SICP such a good introduction to programming? What knowledge will the book impart in me in particular (I'm currrently on chapter 1)?
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2015-08-28T21:29:58Z jkaye: jihuang: In my opinion, it's a great book to get you thinking about programming in an analytical way. Also, starting off with something like scheme keeps syntax out of the way and really lets the reader focus on the concepts rather than the language features
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2015-08-28T21:42:09Z aeth: Is Woo what everyone's using these days now for web servers?
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2015-08-28T21:42:56Z axion: I would say hunchentoot is what most use, as it's mature and familiar, but lots of people have been switching to Woo
2015-08-28T21:44:02Z White_Flame: aeth: some advice at http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/
2015-08-28T21:44:03Z aeth: sorry. s/for web servers/for new web servers/
2015-08-28T21:44:55Z aeth: White_Flame: Yes, but I don't trust that for things I don't know about because it's wrong on some things I know about.
2015-08-28T21:45:38Z aeth: e.g. slime isn't the only IDE, there's slimv for vim. And it really oversimplifies the graphics libraries
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2015-08-28T21:46:53Z solyd_: how efficient is byte array comparison in cl? i have a hash-table with :test #'equalp and byte arrays as keys...
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2015-08-28T21:49:06Z Xach: solyd_: if you know a lot about your data, you might be able to use a different data structure that exploits that knowledge. but it's often best not to worry about it until it's clearly too slow to use the built-in stuff.
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2015-08-28T21:49:50Z solyd_: yea that's common sense i was just wondering what equalp does
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2015-08-28T21:49:58Z solyd_: goes byte after byte or uses memcmp
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2015-08-28T21:50:38Z White_Flame: hash calculations are usually going to be a heavy optimization target
2015-08-28T21:51:22Z Xach: solyd_: depends on the implementation.
2015-08-28T21:51:31Z solyd_: and another question: if i have (let ((x (something-heavy))) (defun foo () (...))), the something-heavy function will be called once during compilation?
2015-08-28T21:51:34Z White_Flame: we heavily use nested lists as equalp hashtable keys, and it hasn't been a performance issue (granted, compared to the other stuff we choke the CPU with)
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2015-08-28T21:52:15Z |3b|: solyd_: should be called once at load time
2015-08-28T21:53:29Z solyd_: compile, load, run - these are the 3 stages?
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2015-08-28T21:59:00Z aeth: No, there's also a macro expansion time.
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2015-08-28T21:59:33Z aeth: second heading under http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
2015-08-28T22:00:56Z aeth: maybe it's a subset of compile, idk
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2015-08-28T22:14:07Z jasom: solyd_: aeth read chapter 3 of the hyperspec for information about that
2015-08-28T22:14:09Z jasom: clhs 3
2015-08-28T22:14:09Z specbot: Evaluation and Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm
2015-08-28T22:15:12Z jasom: and macroexpand can happen at compile time or at eval time, depending on some things
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2015-08-28T22:17:11Z jasom: basically, for a conforming program, *if* you compile it, macroexpand happens when you compile it.  You can evaluate forms without compiling them though.
2015-08-28T22:17:13Z jisfon: When people recommend SICP, they say something around the lines of, "Yeah, go with SICP. It'll teach you information that won't be obsolete in the next five-ten years." What do they mean?
2015-08-28T22:17:58Z jasom: jisfon: sicp teaches a swath of computer science, and only incidentally scheme programming.
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2015-08-28T22:18:55Z jasom: If you were to read a book on discrete math, most of what you learn won't be obsolete in the next five-ten years (as a revolution in discrete math is unlikely at this point).
2015-08-28T22:20:24Z jasom: The mechanics of any particular programming language are likely to become obsolete.  Even common lisp is quite different from LISP 1.5 in many ways
2015-08-28T22:21:23Z jasom: I've had programming classes in Pascal, Ada, Fortran, C, C++, Java, and ML.  I use exactly one of those languages still today.
2015-08-28T22:21:36Z jisfon: C++?
2015-08-28T22:21:41Z jasom: C actually
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2015-08-28T22:23:53Z jasom: I have on my bookshelf a textbook on error-correcting codes written less than a decade after Shannon's paper, and it's mostly still correct for today (the main improvement being codes that treat the input as something other than a stream of 1's and 0's such as turbo codes)
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2015-08-28T22:31:05Z jisfon: So, what are you saying exactly? What does SICP teach that apparently won't become obsolete in the coming decade?
2015-08-28T22:31:14Z jisfon: And why has the book itself been replaced if this is the case?
2015-08-28T22:31:47Z jasom: jisfon: metalinguistic abstraction, recursion, interpreters and modular programming
2015-08-28T22:31:54Z jisfon: Seems like a superior introduction to programming/compsci than most of what is taught at the uni-level nowadays
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2015-08-28T22:32:29Z akkad: any regulars at the #emacsconf tomorrow in SF?
2015-08-28T22:33:16Z assterror: any irregulars?
2015-08-28T22:33:37Z jasom: Berkeley still uses SICP I think and MIT still has the SICP lectures online for anyone who wants them
2015-08-28T22:34:14Z jisfon: Like I said, it seems like a superior introduction to programming/compsci than most of what is taught at the uni-level nowadays
2015-08-28T22:34:20Z jisfon: Why was it replaced?
2015-08-28T22:34:26Z jisfon: Seems dumb, imo.
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2015-08-28T22:34:57Z assterror: 'most of what is taught at the uni-level nowadays' indeed is 'dumb'.
2015-08-28T22:34:58Z jisfon: The book/course also has amazing reception, so I'm not seeing what was wrong with it.
2015-08-28T22:35:08Z phf: i believe a more appropriate term is "shortsighted"
2015-08-28T22:35:23Z jasom: http://cemerick.com/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program/
2015-08-28T22:35:30Z Lokathor: I've got a book on the shelf for Perl, it was the totally hot thing a decade ago
2015-08-28T22:37:05Z Lokathor: jasom, i've heard that MIT has switched 6.001 with scheme to 6.01 with python
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2015-08-28T22:38:35Z Lokathor: never seen an explanation though, thanks
2015-08-28T22:38:57Z assterror still has lispcraft by robert wilensky on his shelf and common lisp by g. l. steele jr '84
2015-08-28T22:39:09Z jasom: The only issue I see with SICP in Python is that local bindings in python are implicit and syntactically indistinguishable from assignment
2015-08-28T22:39:31Z Lokathor: well, there's also less binding levels in python
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2015-08-28T22:40:01Z jasom: one of the neat things about SICP is that you are halfway through the book before you even learn about assignment
2015-08-28T22:40:06Z Lokathor: if you do "for x in xrange(10): i = x", you're left with a spare i variable after the block finishes
2015-08-28T22:40:46Z phf: i think i remember sussman saying something that essentially boiled down to modern programmers are expected to glue libraries together, rather then write code, so python is more appropriate for that need
2015-08-28T22:41:23Z Lokathor: i'm working with a girl that tried python recently but couldn't quite get it
2015-08-28T22:41:43Z Lokathor: so i pointed her at SCIP and told her to go slow and brush up on logic skills and such
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2015-08-28T22:43:15Z assterror: has she ever had to think about a read eval print?
2015-08-28T22:43:21Z assterror: python inferior.
2015-08-28T22:44:09Z Lokathor: she has never programmed in her life. she did HTML in middle school for neopets :P
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2015-08-28T22:45:13Z jisfon: so, SICP is better for someone who's autodidact and wants the best foundation in computer science, rather than someone going to uni to become a...well...code monkey (how I interpreted the above points)?
2015-08-28T22:45:39Z Bike: SICP is good for everybody, you don't need to be elitist to like it
2015-08-28T22:45:48Z Lokathor: jisfon, you'll also be a better code monkey with SCIP than without it
2015-08-28T22:46:31Z aeth: As I said in #scheme earlier: if you are looking into SICP, you can just watch the lectures online to see what the book is about. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090
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2015-08-28T22:47:53Z jisfon: What would typically take longer to learn from: just the lectures or just the book?
2015-08-28T22:48:06Z aeth: They're complementary.
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2015-08-28T22:48:48Z Lokathor: the lectures sum up a lot of the book, but they definitely leave out things from time to time
2015-08-28T22:48:48Z White_Flame: jisfon: books are for autodidacts, when you boil it down
2015-08-28T22:48:57Z jisfon: Yeah, I know; I'm just wondering, since using one to complement the other seems a bit tedious, since the book alone is vaunted as being so gosh darn difficult (overall)
2015-08-28T22:49:08Z Lokathor: and the book has exercises, which are vital to programming learning
2015-08-28T22:49:28Z phf: jisfon: i've listened to videos only when encountering difficulties with a book
2015-08-28T22:50:08Z aeth: You can't get everything from just the lectures.
2015-08-28T22:52:15Z Lokathor: if it comes down to videos or book, go with book. but if you're serious about it you should watch the videos too
2015-08-28T22:52:29Z Lokathor: the same way that you can learn college courses by just buying text books, but you should also show up to class
2015-08-28T22:52:48Z assterror: book is always superior to vid'. |-:
2015-08-28T22:53:31Z assterror: a book anticipates error and stupidity
2015-08-28T22:53:37Z assterror: lectures not so much.
2015-08-28T22:53:47Z assterror: corrections !
2015-08-28T22:54:34Z aeth: Yes, but you can leave a video or a podcast up in the background while playing a game or something. So it doesn't feel like work. So it definitely can help if you want to be time efficient even when you're not being time efficient.
2015-08-28T22:56:01Z assterror: teehee.
2015-08-28T22:56:01Z jisfon: So, SICP teaches the theory of programming at its core, rather than specifics of certain particular branches of programming, like most modern-day uni courses, amirite?
2015-08-28T22:56:03Z White_Flame: also, playing lectures at 2x speed is great
2015-08-28T22:56:21Z White_Flame: right
2015-08-28T22:56:23Z aeth: White_Flame: only 2x?
2015-08-28T22:56:32Z White_Flame: gets a little hard to understand at 3x
2015-08-28T22:56:52Z aeth: White_Flame: I agree, though. SICP videos are the only videos I've watched at 2x speed and it definitely helps.
2015-08-28T22:57:07Z jisfon: aeth, White_Flame: very helpful tips, btw; I have never thought to do what you recommended aeth, and have many times done what you proposed, White_Flame (though at only 1.5x)
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2015-08-28T22:57:53Z aeth: jisfon: well it depends on the game, if you play a game that's e.g. a modern FPS that requires constant concentration and voice chat, it doesn't make sense to try to learn something while doing it
2015-08-28T22:58:08Z aeth: But if it's a slower strategy game or some sort of simulation game, it makes perfect sense.
2015-08-28T22:58:46Z aeth: But for some videos you either have to speed it up or multitask ime
2015-08-28T22:59:13Z assterror: sounds like pr0n.
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2015-08-28T23:02:00Z assterror posits; lesbians have a surplus of holes
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2015-08-28T23:03:03Z Bike: what...
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2015-08-28T23:04:23Z Xach: assterror: go away
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2015-08-28T23:05:24Z assterror: Xach: okay, Mrs.Bean
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2015-08-28T23:06:30Z aeth: some games I've used as background while listening to lectures, etc.: turn based strategy games, card games (or any other game simple enough to ship with Gnome/KDE), Minecraft, city building games, Euro Truck Simulator 2, etc.
2015-08-28T23:07:22Z aeth: I heard a professor recommend Civilization once, but it is a bit too fast. Paradox Interactive strategy games are a bit better because they're mostly played on pause (in single player, at least).
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2015-08-28T23:08:01Z Lokathor: Euro Truck Simulator is the perfect Podcast video game
2015-08-28T23:08:18Z aeth: And obviously this method is not going to work for everyone.
2015-08-28T23:08:28Z Lokathor: how do you mean Civilization is too fast?
2015-08-28T23:08:31Z Lokathor: it's turn based
2015-08-28T23:08:49Z aeth: Lokathor: Simultaneous turns.
2015-08-28T23:08:51Z aeth: Iirc.
2015-08-28T23:09:06Z aeth: Although I think it might just be simultaneous human and simultaneous AI
2015-08-28T23:09:08Z aeth: In separate steps
2015-08-28T23:09:39Z Lokathor: freeciv has simultaneous actions, though if you queue movements to happen next turn then all queued actions happen before anyone gets control as the turn starts
2015-08-28T23:09:53Z aeth: Civilization still requires quite a bit of micro, anyway. In e.g. Paradox's EU4 the micro only really kicks in during war.
2015-08-28T23:10:11Z Lokathor: the "actual" civilization games are all 100% turn based, allowing for hotseat, play by post/email, etc
2015-08-28T23:10:18Z aeth: ah
2015-08-28T23:10:49Z aeth: Anyway, it doesn't need to be turn based, it just needs to be slow playing, and allowing pause if the lecture gets into something very detailed. Two monitors can help.
2015-08-28T23:11:13Z Bike: there are even games like defcon with a "slack off at work" mode! so many possibilities
2015-08-28T23:11:13Z Lokathor: i like civ2, and civ4... 3 and 5 not so much. here's hoping for 6 and we can say it has the star trek effect
2015-08-28T23:11:37Z aeth: Lokathor: ah right, I was judging 5, I guess 4 is a better game. The only ones I've played are 2, 5, and Freeciv iirc
2015-08-28T23:11:40Z aeth: Maybe 3.
2015-08-28T23:12:33Z jisfon: CoD: Blops 2 / GTA V: Online player here :)
2015-08-28T23:12:39Z Lokathor: freeciv is like a blending of 1/2 with minimal unique mechanics (last i checked), but lots and lots of customization options.
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2015-08-28T23:12:48Z aeth: Lokathor: I thought it was 2/3 blended
2015-08-28T23:12:56Z Xach: let us chat of lisp
2015-08-28T23:13:02Z Lokathor: 3 introduced strategic resources
2015-08-28T23:13:22Z aeth: I didn't mean to get off-topic, I was just strictly mentioning some games that you can play to make SICP Lectures (or other Lisp videos) more tolerable during the slow moments.
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2015-08-28T23:13:58Z aeth: It's a study technique, the games themselves are irrelevant. You could probably get the same effect doodling in e.g. an image editor
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2015-08-28T23:15:11Z aeth: As I said, the only two requirements for a multitasking activity are slow and pausable.
2015-08-28T23:15:18Z jisfon: Xach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80YFtnTBApU
2015-08-28T23:15:47Z Xach: jisfon: Go away.
2015-08-28T23:16:41Z jisfon: There's no need for that.
2015-08-28T23:16:46Z aeth: jisfon: #lispcafe if you wish to continue... or I guess #lispgames if you're talking about game design specific elements in the context of potentially e.g. cloning the game in Lisp
2015-08-28T23:17:32Z jisfon: aeth: Noted. (#lispcafe in particular, I guess)
2015-08-28T23:17:45Z aeth: I should have known that I was going to take the conversation off topic, sorry. It's just a study technique for Lisp studying if you have (Lisp) knowledge in audio form you wish to acquire.
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2015-08-28T23:19:47Z aeth: #lispcafe is for off-topic conversations, ##lisp is for conversations that don't involve CL, #lispgames is for Lisp games (all Lisps, including Scheme), #lispweb is for web (obviously) but you might want to ask web questions in here because that channel is kind of dead, and #scheme can probably more directly answer SICP questions in the context of the language (Scheme) used
2015-08-28T23:20:11Z aeth: Quite a few redirects depending on how the conversation has gotten derailed from Common Lisp in specific.
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2015-08-28T23:20:55Z aeth: Sorry, ##lisp involves all Lisps including CL, but if the conversation in #lisp drifts into niche Lisps, ##lisp is the channel to move to
2015-08-28T23:21:30Z aeth: There should probably be a bot to list these channels so people don't have to remember them when the conversation goes off topic.
2015-08-28T23:21:50Z dwchandler: minion doesn't do factoids?
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2015-08-28T23:22:53Z aeth: minion is a bot? Does minion list channels for redirecting people? That sounds like something that should be done by a bot, not people.
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2015-08-28T23:31:55Z dwchandler: aeth: have you ever seen minion do anything except lookup hyperspec stuff, deliver memos, etc?
2015-08-28T23:33:11Z Bike: minion: advice on sarcasm?
2015-08-28T23:33:12Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2015-08-28T23:33:17Z Bike: terrible.
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2015-08-28T23:36:06Z dwchandler: minion: other channels?
2015-08-28T23:36:06Z minion: other channels: #lispcafe for off-topic, ##lisp for any lisp (not just CL), #lispgames for writing games, #lispweb for web dev
2015-08-28T23:36:25Z dmiles_afk: join  #lispgames
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2015-08-28T23:47:53Z aeth: The list looks complete for Lisp in English. http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&chat=lisp
2015-08-28T23:48:36Z jasom: what about #lisp-lab
2015-08-28T23:49:03Z aeth: oh, oops, I forgot #clnoobs
2015-08-28T23:49:09Z jasom: http://www.cliki.net/IRC
2015-08-28T23:50:02Z aeth: #lisp-lab seems to be dead
2015-08-28T23:50:05Z aeth: 1 person there
2015-08-28T23:50:52Z aeth: I guess it's redundant with #clnoobs and #lisp
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2015-08-28T23:57:24Z dwchandler: I won't be offended if someone were to update minion with a more better list. Go for it :)
2015-08-28T23:58:22Z aeth: dwchandler: Well there probably needs to be 4 lists, like on the wiki (general, implementation, other languages) and then also having a list for non-CL Lisps (Scheme, Clojure, Arc, etc.) for people who are confused.
2015-08-28T23:58:55Z aeth: The bot seems to know the first category (general) except #clnoobs
2015-08-28T23:59:27Z dwchandler: I told the bot that list
2015-08-28T23:59:43Z dwchandler: You can fix it, I bet
2015-08-28T23:59:46Z aeth: ah
2015-08-28T23:59:49Z dwchandler: :)
2015-08-28T23:59:57Z aeth: I will have to look into it
2015-08-29T00:00:07Z jasom: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/+3B57
2015-08-29T00:01:09Z aeth: I am busy looking at my Lisp code from yesterday. With a surprisingly low line count, I have managed to wrap enough of CL/SDL to have a basic 3D space flight simulator. No collision, no textures, no lighting, no interiors yet. But it's amazing how complete the actual movement feels from just a few matrix operations.
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2015-08-29T00:01:16Z scymtym: jasom: nice
2015-08-29T00:02:16Z aeth: wc -l */*.lisp says I have so far used 852 lines in my space flight sim. I wonder if I can get the line count lower.
2015-08-29T00:02:46Z jasom: scymtym: once I adapted esrap to work with the formal grammar, it was quite mechanical.  I did a lot of it while watching TV
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2015-08-29T00:03:27Z scymtym: jasom: did you use anything special beside your monstrous macro?
2015-08-29T00:03:41Z jasom: and I should say not formal, but sem-iformal since its a parameterized BNF with a few hand-wavy comments, and no documentation for how much backtracking is allowed
2015-08-29T00:04:09Z dwchandler: minion: irc channels?
2015-08-29T00:04:09Z minion: irc channels: see http://www.cliki.net/IRC for a list of lisp related channels
2015-08-29T00:04:15Z dwchandler: there
2015-08-29T00:04:45Z jasom: but 98% of the rules were essentially a straight translation from infix/postfix to prefix
2015-08-29T00:05:57Z jasom: also there were a couple of * and + productions that would accept ɛ which sends esrap into an infinite loop
2015-08-29T00:06:41Z scymtym: also some negative look ahead and count-constraint repititions
2015-08-29T00:07:03Z scymtym: which lead me to extend esrap before continuing work on the grammar
2015-08-29T00:07:06Z jasom: The negative lookahead is easy in esrap
2015-08-29T00:07:19Z scymtym: i should push those sometime
2015-08-29T00:07:39Z scymtym: sure they are all rather simple conveniences
2015-08-29T00:07:46Z scymtym: i suggest stealing the test suite at https://github.com/scymtym/parser.yaml/tree/master/test which is in turn stolen from the haskell reference implementation
2015-08-29T00:07:48Z jasom: and I did count-constraint repetitions with a macro that generated (or foo (and foo foo) (and foo foo foo) ...)
2015-08-29T00:07:59Z jasom: or rather reverse that (longest first)
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2015-08-29T00:08:42Z jasom: scymtym: nice, I will *totally* steal that
2015-08-29T00:08:50Z jisfon: is it possible to change mit-scheme's ugly prompt to a simple "> "?
2015-08-29T00:08:56Z scymtym: needs some cleanup though
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2015-08-29T00:11:35Z jasom: scymtym: (! (& foo)) is negative lookahead for esrap, right?  what did you have to add?
2015-08-29T00:12:40Z scymtym: sorry, i meant negative offset, i.e (< 1 #\a) <=> previous character is #\a
2015-08-29T00:12:54Z jasom: oh I did that with a simple function rule
2015-08-29T00:13:13Z scymtym: https://github.com/scymtym/parser.yaml/blob/master/src/grammar.lisp#L70
2015-08-29T00:13:24Z scymtym: sure, it becomes only marginally simpler
2015-08-29T00:13:29Z jasom: fancy
2015-08-29T00:13:58Z scymtym: will push to esrap master after writing tests
2015-08-29T00:14:25Z jasom: though you got lucky that this works, as b-break can be two characters
2015-08-29T00:14:49Z jasom: it just so happens that either one of them alone is also a b-break
2015-08-29T00:15:29Z scymtym: i translated the haskell reference implementation which is where the new constructs came from
2015-08-29T00:15:45Z scymtym: so they either got lucky as well or exploited it knowingly
2015-08-29T00:15:57Z jasom: I worked directly from the spec.
2015-08-29T00:17:11Z jasom: where do you bind the specials?  I don't see that anywhere in your grammar
2015-08-29T00:17:12Z scymtym: i think the haskell implementation is close to the spec. the few times i had to consult the spec it seemed like a mostly direct translation
2015-08-29T00:17:16Z jasom: e.g. *c* *n*
2015-08-29T00:18:41Z scymtym: it has been a while since i worked on it, but here seems to be one example https://github.com/scymtym/parser.yaml/blob/master/src/grammar.lisp#L652
2015-08-29T00:19:04Z jasom: oh, I see now
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2015-08-29T00:20:05Z jasom: I considered going with dynamic variables, but I couldn't convince myself it was safe.  I may still modify esrap to allow passing arguments to function rules, since it's ~3 lines total that are different
2015-08-29T00:20:45Z scymtym: i want to add that extension as well
2015-08-29T00:21:40Z jasom: scymtym: hmm yours looks fairly complete, why the DO NOT USE THIS note?
2015-08-29T00:22:00Z scymtym: it fails 34 of the 650 or so test cases
2015-08-29T00:22:10Z scymtym: i.e. needs some debugging
2015-08-29T00:22:16Z jasom: ah
2015-08-29T00:22:26Z scymtym: but the principle should be sound
2015-08-29T00:22:40Z scymtym: i use it for indentation tracking in my python parser
2015-08-29T00:23:22Z scymtym: where principle = special variables in combination with nested PARSE calls, i.e. a fresh cache
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2015-08-29T00:25:52Z scymtym: jasom: it's 2 am here, can we continue to talk later?
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2015-08-29T01:08:16Z Devon: Curious result from $ ccl --eval '(defun nil ())'
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2015-08-29T01:21:26Z Devon: Yet no complaint from (setf (symbol-function nil) #'identity)
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2015-08-29T01:37:11Z rme: Devon: There are actually two tickets about that (http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1101, http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/613).
2015-08-29T01:37:31Z rme: Were you being devious, or did that come up in some larger context?
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2015-08-29T02:02:18Z Devon: Stumbled across it while debugging a macro.
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2015-08-29T03:01:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are their any open source rss feed readers written in common lisp?
2015-08-29T03:02:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. something like Google Reader or Feedly?
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2015-08-29T03:15:47Z axion: is there anyway to read a class slot's initform value directly without an instance?
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2015-08-29T03:36:25Z resttime: axion: yup closer-mop provides that function
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2015-08-29T03:36:56Z resttime: (slot-definition-initform (car (class-direct-slots (find-class 'my-class))))
2015-08-29T03:37:40Z resttime: class-direct-slots returns a list of slots of 'my-class so that just returns the initform of the car
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2015-08-29T04:31:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-08-29T04:31:23Z brucem: and a good morning it is! you too, beach.
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2015-08-29T04:32:49Z slyrus: hey beach!
2015-08-29T04:33:38Z beach: slyrus: Long time no see.  Are you back working on Lisp stuff?
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2015-08-29T04:36:21Z slyrus: I still use it on a daily basis for work! no work on lisp implementations though :(
2015-08-29T04:36:34Z slyrus: and very little library writing too :(
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2015-08-29T04:37:29Z beach: Oh, well.  Maybe someday.
2015-08-29T04:37:32Z slyrus: I finally figured out how to make org-mode do much of what I use my smarkup stuff for, but I end up writing a fair bit of s-expressions containing what otherwise would be in org-mode/latex/etc...
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2015-08-29T04:37:55Z slyrus: and at least I get to use libraries I've already written!
2015-08-29T04:38:09Z slyrus: how about you? what's new with SICL/cleavir/etc...
2015-08-29T04:38:56Z beach: slyrus: Still working hard on it.  Right now I am working on compiler optimizations such as value numbering.
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2015-08-29T04:39:40Z beach: Well, value numbering in itself is not an optimization, but an analysis tool.
2015-08-29T04:39:59Z beach: I am planning to use it to eliminate superfluous tests by what I call path replication.
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2015-08-29T05:20:17Z akkad: does sbcl support relative paths with load? and if so is sb-posix:chdir not the right way?
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2015-08-29T05:22:32Z resttime: slackware was giving me extremely weird internet issues earlier, did you get my info about closer-mop manage to reach you axion?
2015-08-29T05:23:06Z resttime: errr or if anyone else could tell me if they saw it, no idea with my internet at the time
2015-08-29T05:23:22Z Bike: resttime: the last message you sent was "class-direct-slots returns a list..."
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2015-08-29T05:24:58Z resttime: Bike: thats's good thanks, though repeating again functions of interest-> #'slot-definition-init-form - #'class-direct-slots - #'find-class
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2015-08-29T05:25:43Z resttime: oops #'slot-definition-initform
2015-08-29T05:26:46Z resttime: actually better to just give whole doc: http://www.crategus.com/books/closer-mop/
2015-08-29T05:27:40Z drmeister: Hello
2015-08-29T05:27:50Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-08-29T05:27:54Z akkad: hi
2015-08-29T05:28:15Z resttime: hello person making clasp
2015-08-29T05:28:19Z resttime: you're like awesome
2015-08-29T05:28:37Z drmeister: Oh you.
2015-08-29T05:28:42Z drmeister: Couldn't do it without beach.
2015-08-29T05:28:56Z beach: drmeister: I would rather stay out of the limelight.
2015-08-29T05:29:26Z drmeister: So would I.
2015-08-29T05:29:40Z beach: Too late.
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2015-08-29T05:29:54Z drmeister: But anyway - cclasp is compiling again.  I'm working on bringing MPS back up.
2015-08-29T05:30:31Z beach: Great!
2015-08-29T05:30:36Z drmeister: We discovered earlier that gcc 5.2 causes problems with Clasp.
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2015-08-29T05:31:05Z drmeister: They made changes to the C++ ABI and Clang can't use libraries compiled with gcc 5.2 unless compiler switches are set properly.
2015-08-29T05:31:28Z beach: "They"?  The GCC people?
2015-08-29T05:31:32Z drmeister: Yeah
2015-08-29T05:34:29Z drmeister: http://developerblog.redhat.com/2015/02/05/gcc5-and-the-c11-abi/
2015-08-29T05:34:41Z drmeister: They've changed how C++ names are mangled
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2015-08-29T05:35:37Z drmeister: That's what you get for not having a clear definition of "Symbol" in your language - I guess.
2015-08-29T05:35:51Z akkad hunts for clasp packages
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2015-08-29T05:38:45Z beach: Name mangling is such a weird idea anyway.
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2015-08-29T05:39:04Z beach: And a result of wanting to use linker technology from the 1960s.
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2015-08-29T05:41:35Z drmeister: It'll all be fixed in 2030 with C++ "Modules".
2015-08-29T05:43:26Z H4ns: say the advocates of a language that has CAR, CDR and SET :D
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2015-08-29T05:45:11Z Shinmera: Nothing like a cadadr in the morning.
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2015-08-29T06:06:14Z akkad: ahh sb-posix:chdir + load of a load won't work, but change-directory or :cd will
2015-08-29T06:06:30Z |3b|: clhs *d-p-d*
2015-08-29T06:06:30Z specbot: *default-pathname-defaults*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm
2015-08-29T06:07:12Z |3b|: ^ is what CL uses to resolve relative paths
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2015-08-29T06:09:15Z akkad: |3b| this works much easier :P http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw445/LWRM/html/lwref-172.htm
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2015-08-29T06:14:44Z |3b|: maybe if you are using lispworks (or something else that happens to implement something similar), but it doesn't look portable
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2015-08-29T06:46:24Z akkad: gotcha thanks
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2015-08-29T07:38:54Z pjb: jasom: you don't use today the C you were taught years ago.  There have been half a dozen new C standards since!
2015-08-29T07:39:14Z pjb: (not counting the implementation specific features you use when you write C programs, like say, Linux).
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2015-08-29T07:45:06Z pjb: aeth: there's a cliki page: http://cliki.net/IRC
2015-08-29T07:45:23Z pjb: aeth: cliki is mentionned in the topic.
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2015-08-29T10:13:58Z solyd_: what is the base way to switch case on string value?
2015-08-29T10:14:36Z oleo: string-upcase, string-downcase
2015-08-29T10:15:47Z solyd_: no i mean switch (string-var) { case "test" : ... ; case "test2": ... }
2015-08-29T10:16:07Z solyd_: appologies for blashpomous c syntax :)
2015-08-29T10:16:17Z oleo: use cond
2015-08-29T10:16:26Z oleo: and/or if
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2015-08-29T10:17:03Z oleo: or case ?
2015-08-29T10:17:18Z jackdaniel: case won't work
2015-08-29T10:17:27Z jackdaniel: it uses eql
2015-08-29T10:17:48Z jackdaniel: coercing string to symbol might make case more suitable I guess
2015-08-29T10:18:12Z solyd_: ok cond is fine but its a bit ugly... (cond ((string= var "test") .. ) ((string= var "test2") ..))
2015-08-29T10:18:17Z jackdaniel: solyd_: I'd just create macro, which works just like case, but uses equalp predicate
2015-08-29T10:19:59Z jackdaniel: or string=
2015-08-29T10:21:09Z solyd_: found (alexandria:switch)
2015-08-29T10:22:04Z jackdaniel: o, and it gives you test keyword
2015-08-29T10:22:09Z jackdaniel: it should work then
2015-08-29T10:22:17Z jackdaniel: just :test #'string=
2015-08-29T10:22:33Z solyd_: but it doesn't work on variables... it says "In an anonymous lambda form: Undeclared free variable TMP"
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2015-08-29T10:22:48Z solyd_: (alexandria:switch (tmp :test #'equalp) ("test" ...))
2015-08-29T10:26:01Z solyd_: i dont get it, it expands into "(LET ((#:VALUE54264 (IDENTITY TMP))) (COND ((EQUALP #:VALUE54264 "test") (PRINT "f")) (T NIL)))"
2015-08-29T10:26:15Z solyd_: it seems just fine
2015-08-29T10:27:36Z solyd_: oh identity is a macro ffs
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2015-08-29T10:29:41Z solyd_: ok so my problem was that i juset (setf tmp "something") but when i call alexandria:switch from within a (let ((tmp "something")) ...) it works. setf doesn't bind tmp as a variable?
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2015-08-29T10:30:57Z jackdaniel: yes, use defparameter
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2015-08-29T10:37:06Z pjb: jackdaniel: I'm having problems compiling  ecl 16 on MacOSX.  With port, it fails seemingly on lambda in C code (in some included MacOSX header).   When compiling with gcc 4.9 I get an error about SB-BSD-SOCKET missing.
2015-08-29T10:37:29Z pjb: What version of C (of gcc) is needed to compile ecl?
2015-08-29T10:38:15Z jackdaniel: pjb: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/125
2015-08-29T10:38:38Z pjb: yes, this one.
2015-08-29T10:38:39Z jackdaniel: essentialy it builds also with clang, but you have to modify two files on OSX
2015-08-29T10:38:44Z jackdaniel: any gcc will do
2015-08-29T10:39:37Z jackdaniel: it's out of my reach (apple enforcing extensions on core libraries to be incompat with gcc)
2015-08-29T10:39:56Z pjb: there's a gcc5 and gcc6 even on port.  Perhaps they implement C lambdas?  I'll try them before patching the system headers.
2015-08-29T10:39:57Z jackdaniel: take the stackoverflow link
2015-08-29T10:40:05Z pjb: Yes.  Thanks.
2015-08-29T10:40:15Z jackdaniel: sure, leave a comment on this closed issue if you succeed
2015-08-29T10:40:19Z jackdaniel: it will be helpful :)
2015-08-29T10:40:22Z pjb: ok
2015-08-29T10:40:24Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-08-29T10:47:48Z brucem: jackdaniel: nice ... that same set of files in the OS X headers just led me on a 2 day bit of work. :)
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2015-08-29T12:26:05Z mprelude: Hi
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2015-08-29T12:40:51Z mprelude: I know this is a terrible and subjective question, but I'm jumping in a little at the deep end so looking for something to build on. I've just started getting into common lisp, and want to put what I've learned into practice by writing a web application. I'm just wondering if someone can give me a good tech stack for http server, html templating, making http requests.
2015-08-29T12:42:02Z pjb: If you followed http://planet.lisp.org/ you'd know.
2015-08-29T12:42:05Z mprelude: And also a quick and dirty guide to a build process, as I'll want to be using Sass.
2015-08-29T12:43:17Z pjb: http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm
2015-08-29T12:44:07Z mprelude: Thanks
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2015-08-29T12:48:29Z pjb: mprelude: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/
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2015-08-29T12:55:55Z dim: mprelude: you can also have a look at pgcharts which is a quite simple all-embedded web application written in CL, it's at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts
2015-08-29T13:02:52Z mprelude: Thanks dim, this is what I was looking for
2015-08-29T13:03:13Z mprelude: But I bought the book pjb linked too, looks helpful.
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2015-08-29T13:18:51Z shka: hi
2015-08-29T13:19:24Z shka: i'm trying to write defmacro-driver for my btree implementation
2015-08-29T13:21:34Z shka: the problem is that i need to pass optional argument to it
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2015-08-29T13:23:17Z shka: and not only this
2015-08-29T13:23:21Z jackdaniel: shka: maybe some example? it's not clear what you want to achieve / where the problem is
2015-08-29T13:23:27Z shka: right
2015-08-29T13:23:30Z shka: give me a second
2015-08-29T13:23:33Z jackdaniel: 1
2015-08-29T13:23:38Z jackdaniel: beep beep beep
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2015-08-29T13:23:48Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2015-08-29T13:24:45Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154438
2015-08-29T13:24:56Z shka: jackdaniel: here it is
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2015-08-29T13:25:01Z shka: it will not compile
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2015-08-29T13:25:11Z shka: it seems that this macro accepts only even number of arguments
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2015-08-29T13:25:15Z shka: which seems to be strange
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2015-08-29T13:25:25Z jackdaniel: INDEX index ?
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2015-08-29T13:25:33Z jackdaniel: derp, it's the same symbol
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2015-08-29T13:26:23Z jackdaniel: and what is defmacro-driver ?
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2015-08-29T13:28:22Z shka: jackdaniel: well, it is how iterate defines new drivers
2015-08-29T13:28:42Z shka: https://searchcode.com/codesearch/view/89672025/
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2015-08-29T13:28:57Z shka: i'm trying to figure out how to use it
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2015-08-29T13:32:22Z jackdaniel: and how your code breaks?
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2015-08-29T13:34:00Z jackdaniel: i see no keyword INDEX in iterate package btw
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2015-08-29T13:34:22Z loke`: XBIRC.F
2015-08-29T13:34:27Z loke`: oops
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2015-08-29T13:35:58Z shka: jackdaniel: does not matter
2015-08-29T13:36:25Z jackdaniel: does not matter that your code breaks?
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2015-08-29T13:37:45Z jackdaniel: defmacro-driver accepts any defmacro-clause (which accepts &optional keyword), but if index isn't defined as valid part of defmacro-clause, then it's bogus imo
2015-08-29T13:40:16Z shka: jackdaniel: it does not matter because i don't see how i can create what i want with iterate
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2015-08-29T13:41:05Z shka: that is: descent in tree finding finding my key
2015-08-29T13:43:28Z shka: does anybody happen to know how to wride driver like that?
2015-08-29T13:43:33Z shka: is that even possible
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2015-08-29T13:45:49Z jackdaniel: so basically you have cons tree and want to search it for an element?
2015-08-29T13:46:59Z shka: not cons tree
2015-08-29T13:47:15Z shka: it is btree
2015-08-29T13:47:24Z shka: but any bst will do, really
2015-08-29T13:49:22Z jackdaniel:  your code compiles if you add KEY before key
2015-08-29T13:49:24Z jackdaniel: btw
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2015-08-29T13:51:34Z jackdaniel: if you want to have multiple symbols for one part of clause, you have to enclose them in parens
2015-08-29T13:51:49Z jackdaniel: (FOR lef FINDING-IN-BTREE (tree key) …)
2015-08-29T13:51:52Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, gl
2015-08-29T13:52:04Z shka: jackdaniel: staaaaaaaaaaaaay
2015-08-29T13:52:08Z shka: i need any example :D
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2015-08-29T13:52:25Z jackdaniel: I don't know iterate, just read it from manual – I encourage you to do the same
2015-08-29T13:53:39Z shka: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Writing-Drivers.html#index-defmacro_002ddriver-122
2015-08-29T13:53:43Z shka: this is manual
2015-08-29T13:54:15Z jackdaniel: yes, I found it here
2015-08-29T13:54:16Z jackdaniel: indeed
2015-08-29T13:54:29Z jackdaniel: sequence iteration and example clauses
2015-08-29T13:54:45Z jackdaniel: 2.1.2
2015-08-29T13:55:11Z jackdaniel AFKs \o
2015-08-29T13:56:02Z jason_m: Any Crane users out there?  Does it work with sqlite3?  I seem to have it working with postgres, but it doesn't create and tables with sqlite.
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2015-08-29T14:07:44Z shka: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-08-29T14:07:53Z shka: founded by accident
2015-08-29T14:07:57Z shka: but interesting
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2015-08-29T14:16:42Z jason_m: Ah, figured out the Crane thing.  With sqlite3, it can create the table, but not make any alterations.  It's noted in the bug tracker.
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2015-08-29T14:43:40Z shka: iterate manual kinda sucks
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2015-08-29T14:45:01Z jackdaniel: shka: wite a tutorial, post on planet! It's a way for fame and fortune
2015-08-29T14:45:02Z jackdaniel: back btw
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2015-08-29T14:46:19Z shka_: yeah, first i need to figure out how to do anything with it
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2015-08-29T14:46:39Z shka_: and to be honest the only way i can do this is to read source code of iterate
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2015-08-29T14:50:03Z lambda-smith just learn to love the mighty loop macro
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2015-08-29T14:50:47Z Shinmera: Loop won't do if you have your own iterateable data structure.
2015-08-29T14:50:49Z lambda-smith: Also, using loop macros means that you code can be translated to Javascript using Parenscript.
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2015-08-29T14:55:28Z shka_: lambda-smith: Shinmera is telling truth, though extending iterate is not exactly well documented
2015-08-29T14:55:42Z shka_: luckly whole thing is open source so you have examples in the code
2015-08-29T14:55:50Z Shinmera: I did it for Flare just recently, but I wasn't very impressed by the way iterate handles it.
2015-08-29T14:55:57Z lambda-smith: Ah, I see.
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2015-08-29T14:56:50Z lambda-smith: I'll study Flare source code then. Would be a nice learning experiences. :)
2015-08-29T14:57:00Z Shinmera: Don't.
2015-08-29T14:57:03Z Shinmera: At least not yet.
2015-08-29T14:57:14Z Shinmera: It's not presentable yet.
2015-08-29T14:57:24Z lambda-smith: Ah, okay. :D I'll wait until you released it publicly.
2015-08-29T14:58:24Z shka_: what is Flare?
2015-08-29T14:58:41Z Shinmera: Primarily a particle effect library.
2015-08-29T14:58:51Z shka_: oh, sounds interesting
2015-08-29T15:00:42Z shka_: l'll be off now
2015-08-29T15:01:07Z shka_: have a good day everyone
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2015-08-29T15:25:21Z jcowan: So, what's the value of (let ('6) (* . '7))?
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2015-08-29T15:35:07Z jason_m: Now I'm getting hung up with Lucerne and evaluating a defapp form: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154446
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2015-08-29T15:54:10Z ogamita: jcowan: anwered in #scheme.
2015-08-29T15:54:32Z ogamita: jcowan: how do you dare coming to #lisp or #scheme without having a CL or scheme REPL open in your other terminal???
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2015-08-29T16:21:52Z jason_m: Ah, my middlewares needed to be enclosed in another set of parens
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2015-08-29T17:07:38Z chrnybo2: Rudolph Miller's jonathan, in encode.lisp, says "(loop for char character in [...]".  Lispworks does not understand the "character" type annotation, while ccl and sbcl seem to accept it.
2015-08-29T17:08:39Z Bike: if you do 'for char of-type character in' it'll work.
2015-08-29T17:09:23Z chrnybo2: Ah, that's nicer than ifdefing it away for LW.  Thanks.
2015-08-29T17:10:52Z chrnybo2: And I presume it'll be standard CL that way.  Appears to work as well with sbcl and ccl.
2015-08-29T17:11:15Z Bike: yes. using the type by itself is only standard for float and fixnum and stuff.
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2015-08-29T17:13:16Z chrnybo2: Bike: Even in practice.  LW happily reads (loop for i fixnum across #(1 2 3) collecting i)
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2015-08-29T17:15:04Z Bike: yeah, implementations are pretty standard compliant.
2015-08-29T17:15:48Z Bike: sometimes they're liberal in what they accept, 's all.
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2015-08-29T17:20:39Z chrnybo2: I sent a mail to Rudolph.
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2015-08-29T17:36:19Z Bike: clhs 6.1.1.7
2015-08-29T17:36:19Z specbot: Destructuring: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm
2015-08-29T17:36:21Z Bike: if you need a cite
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2015-08-29T19:36:34Z bizarrefish: hi all
2015-08-29T19:36:48Z jackdaniel: hi
2015-08-29T19:38:19Z bizarrefish: I'd be interested to hear discussion around interactive programming -  building up a program whilst running it. How is this usually achieved in such a way that the evaluated forms are 'saved' so the application may be 'bootstrapped' in future?
2015-08-29T19:39:12Z Shinmera: You just dump an image of the running process if that's what you mean.
2015-08-29T19:39:50Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: How about the creation of 'source code' such that modifications can be made?
2015-08-29T19:39:56Z Shinmera: Usually you just write your source code into files as usual and then use a build system like ASDF to recompile/load them whenever needed.
2015-08-29T19:40:15Z bizarrefish: Ah, okay. So you wouldn't typically code the application via a REPL
2015-08-29T19:40:25Z Shinmera: You can if you want to.
2015-08-29T19:40:36Z Shinmera: It's not the best idea, but the possibility is there if you want it.
2015-08-29T19:40:50Z bizarrefish: You'd need to override defun et. al. such that the forms were copied somewhere, I'm guessing.
2015-08-29T19:40:56Z Shinmera: I like persistency, so I only use the REPL for experiments, illustrations, or running things.
2015-08-29T19:41:01Z Shinmera: Not really.
2015-08-29T19:41:21Z Shinmera: You just dump an image of the application when you want to save and resume from there.
2015-08-29T19:41:58Z bizarrefish: Oh okay, erm... use an editor which knows enough about different forms to submit them to eval when appropriate, perhaps
2015-08-29T19:42:20Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what that means.
2015-08-29T19:42:23Z bizarrefish: I guess i'm looking for ways one would code an application from a REPL, and also benefit from retaining the source code.
2015-08-29T19:42:42Z resttime: Like in a way your Common Lisp implementation makes a copy of itself and all changes you did like hibernating the computer
2015-08-29T19:42:49Z bizarrefish: The answer is maybe quite context-dependent
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2015-08-29T19:43:08Z bizarrefish: resttime: It does that? O_o
2015-08-29T19:43:32Z resttime: that's what it "means" to "save as an image" in the context of common lisp
2015-08-29T19:43:44Z bizarrefish is actually not that familiar with common lisp, more just interested in languages/environments which permit this kind of dynamism
2015-08-29T19:44:25Z bizarrefish: resttime: Oh, okay; so that would include the functions as they were defined - not just machine code
2015-08-29T19:44:30Z Shinmera: Your implementation may or may not just save the source code of defuns and such-like even if you write it on the repl
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2015-08-29T19:44:49Z Shinmera: Eg http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TnpFeg==
2015-08-29T19:45:14Z Shinmera: But I'm still rather confused about what you actually want to know, so.
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2015-08-29T19:47:06Z jackdaniel: bizarrefish: you can code from the repl and if you use dribble it will save thing to the file
2015-08-29T19:47:26Z jackdaniel: (dribble #P"~/file.lisp") ; will record your interaction
2015-08-29T19:47:38Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: Im looking for a methodology or procedure which allows me to build up a system interactively, from a REPL. It would need to work in such a way that what I entered would be captured as source code and put somewhere that could then be evaluated to get me back into the same state at a later time.
2015-08-29T19:48:17Z Shinmera: bizarrefish: Usually what you do is write a file in an IDE like SLIME and then hit a keychord on a form to send it over to the inferior lisp process and compile/evaluate it.
2015-08-29T19:48:34Z Shinmera: bizarrefish: You then automate this process for multiple files by defining a system with a build tool like ASDF.
2015-08-29T19:48:44Z bizarrefish: jackdaniel: Ah, yes. That looks relevant certainly :)
2015-08-29T19:49:17Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: That's what I've been doing with lisps and similarly dynamic languages up until now - I feel like I'm missing something.
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2015-08-29T19:49:54Z bizarrefish: i feel like the REPL could maybe be leveraged as the place you actually build the app from, rather than just using it to experiment
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2015-08-29T19:50:05Z Shinmera: THe REPL isn't actually that convenient in my opinion.
2015-08-29T19:50:20Z Shinmera: I like being able to jump around source code. The REPL just evaluates stuff.
2015-08-29T19:50:25Z Shinmera: After all, it's in the name.
2015-08-29T19:50:45Z bizarrefish: So perhaps the smarter-editor is what I'm really after. Emacs, etc..
2015-08-29T19:50:46Z resttime: bizarrefish: Do you have emacs + SLIME setup?
2015-08-29T19:50:59Z resttime: guess not lol
2015-08-29T19:51:21Z bizarrefish: resttime: Not SLIME. I've used clojure mostly, so nrepl.
2015-08-29T19:51:31Z Shinmera: SLIME's the thing most people use.
2015-08-29T19:51:45Z bizarrefish ducks in preparation for clojure-hate
2015-08-29T19:51:54Z Shinmera: And usually the sad tale so far is that you either use it or don't code in lisp at all because there's no serious alternative (outside of LispWorks)
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2015-08-29T19:52:25Z resttime: Well for COmmon Lisp you should pretty much grab SLIME + Paredit for emacs
2015-08-29T19:52:27Z bizarrefish: Hmm
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2015-08-29T19:52:47Z bizarrefish: I guess you need a notion of a compilation unit. For the REPL, this is a string.
2015-08-29T19:52:54Z Shinmera: There's also SLIMV if you like Vim, but that's seriously lacking in comparison to SLIME
2015-08-29T19:53:10Z bizarrefish: Developing real apps, the compilation unit is often a file.
2015-08-29T19:53:53Z jackdaniel: bizarrefish: dribble is nice to record something, but for real development I'd advice carefully organizing your code in files
2015-08-29T19:54:05Z bizarrefish: The difference with the latter being that the compilation units are assigned names, whereas in the repl, they are anonymous.
2015-08-29T19:54:07Z Shinmera: I don't know what you mean by "real apps"
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2015-08-29T19:54:17Z jackdaniel: not fake
2015-08-29T19:54:26Z jackdaniel: ;-) good night everyone \o
2015-08-29T19:54:36Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: Developing working applications using dynamic languages, rather than just playing in a REPL
2015-08-29T19:54:41Z bizarrefish: jackdaniel: Night
2015-08-29T19:54:42Z Oladon: night jackdaniel
2015-08-29T19:54:50Z resttime: gnite
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2015-08-29T19:55:25Z Shinmera: A form is a form. It doesn't really matter where it "comes from" outside of *compile-file-pathname*/*load-pathname*
2015-08-29T19:55:45Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: It does in terms of the way the developer works with it.
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2015-08-29T19:55:54Z bizarrefish: I know the runtime doesn't care.
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2015-08-29T19:56:16Z Shinmera: As I said before. With SLIME you just move the cursor to a form, hit C-c C-c and it's compiled in your implementation.
2015-08-29T19:56:19Z jason_m: bizarrefish: I second what Shinmera said, write your code in files in an IDE and you can selectively recompile / send things over as you need to
2015-08-29T19:56:47Z bizarrefish: Perhaps a thin layer could be produced to track which units have been evaluated. Add to this a requirement to make units (and 'partial units') idempotent, and perhaps that would be a good situation.
2015-08-29T19:56:55Z jason_m: It still can be interactive.  It is a very different process than say compiling a c++ / c# / java etc. application or library
2015-08-29T19:57:12Z Shinmera: bizarrefish: I don't know what you're talking about again.
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2015-08-29T19:58:15Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: I'm really just musing about strategies for making development as 'interactive' as possible, and also wondering whether or not that's even a thing worth persuing.
2015-08-29T19:58:40Z Shinmera: It's already plenty interactive for me.
2015-08-29T19:58:43Z resttime: bizarrefish: Well you could add something like a pseudo REPL into a game which you dribble to a file
2015-08-29T19:58:59Z bizarrefish: resttime: That's exactly the kind of thing i'm musing about.
2015-08-29T19:59:02Z bizarrefish: :)
2015-08-29T19:59:09Z Shinmera: bizarrefish: Maybe you should try SLIME and its features before musing further, because at this point I don't know what you know, or whether what you're trying to describe is already implemented by it.
2015-08-29T19:59:20Z jason_m: bizarrefish: follow this through, I consider this to be a sort of interactive development: http://www.adamtornhill.com/articles/lispweb.htm
2015-08-29T19:59:26Z jason_m: and do it with emacs + SLIME
2015-08-29T19:59:48Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: Perhaps you're correct. I know SLIME is comprehensive and everyone who has actually put the time into learning it believes it to be excellent.
2015-08-29T20:00:04Z resttime: bizarrefish: Problem with that though is that usage with emacs will likely be superior because you'll just be reimplementing slime into your game
2015-08-29T20:00:08Z bizarrefish: What can I say, I like musing.
2015-08-29T20:00:14Z resttime: "reimplementing slime"
2015-08-29T20:00:32Z Shinmera: I haven't even learned half of what I should know about SLIME, and it's already very useful. It would also be a good thing to study if you want to seriously contemplate the area of development environments.
2015-08-29T20:00:59Z bizarrefish: It's definitely on my bucket list; perhaps it needs promoting
2015-08-29T20:01:14Z resttime: Though it might be convinient for an average end user though for level editing without having to use emacs
2015-08-29T20:01:22Z Shinmera: Since this is #lisp, anything that promotes CL up the list is something people will advocate.
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2015-08-29T20:02:09Z bizarrefish: Shinmera: I got the impression that someone would throw a chair after I mentioned clojure which, if I had to guess, I'd guess is views as a kind of 'lisp for people who dont get lisp' here. Just a guess...
2015-08-29T20:02:21Z Shinmera: resttime: I did write a very minimal CL REPL in Qt as a Qtools example
2015-08-29T20:02:34Z Shinmera: One of my nagging back thoughts is to expand that some day.
2015-08-29T20:03:15Z Shinmera: Starting the movie after this track
2015-08-29T20:03:19Z Shinmera: y'all ready for some riffin'?
2015-08-29T20:03:25Z Shinmera: Whoops
2015-08-29T20:03:27Z resttime: Shinmera: sounds like a neat project
2015-08-29T20:03:31Z Shinmera: wrong channel, sorry
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2015-08-29T20:04:10Z Shinmera: resttime: If you want to have a look https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/examples/evaluator/evaluator.lisp
2015-08-29T20:04:14Z rm-r: hello what libraries for game are available ?
2015-08-29T20:04:20Z resttime: bizarrefish: I'd recommend strongly going through with SLIME and Emacs combination first
2015-08-29T20:04:37Z resttime: afterwards implementing what you want you'll understand pros/cons much better
2015-08-29T20:05:29Z resttime: Err that is assuming that one has not experienced development in such a way
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2015-08-29T20:06:37Z resttime: if one has, then to go further is to kind of create your own REPL which is possible
2015-08-29T20:06:45Z resttime: for what I think you're thinking of, yes you can do it
2015-08-29T20:08:09Z resttime: Like I was pondering upon an idea for a programming game that teaches how to program in Common Lisp
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2015-08-29T20:09:17Z resttime: With a repl implemented in the game, the end-user can literally program everything required like key bindings for movement and etc.
2015-08-29T20:09:35Z resttime: provided that the initial environment has such capabilities
2015-08-29T20:09:48Z resttime: Interactive way to learn
2015-08-29T20:09:52Z resttime: Extremely interactive
2015-08-29T20:10:42Z resttime: err but anyways that might've strayed a bit far from topic lol sry
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2015-08-29T20:14:57Z resttime: rm-r: depends, are you looking for something like bindings to sdl2? cl-sdl2
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2015-08-29T20:22:28Z aeth: rm-r: There's https://github.com/lispgames/ but not everything there is in Quicklisp yet.
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2015-08-29T20:23:12Z aeth: At a minimum for games you're going to need cl-opengl and cl-sdl2. (And probably cl-sdl2-mixer for sound?) For the rest you have options or can write your own.
2015-08-29T20:24:35Z aeth: There are also some libraries here that might be useful: https://github.com/BradWBeer/
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2015-08-29T20:24:45Z aeth: Also, potentially sb-cga.
2015-08-29T20:24:51Z aeth: (Matrices.)
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2015-08-29T20:57:20Z pjb: bizarrefish: Check RAX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ&index=13&list=PLFGwvw1jHU_THdNvecNthaKBHnRv9hxbL
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2015-08-29T21:06:17Z axion: resttime: yes thank you. i am pretty unfamiliar with MOP stuff...good time to start learning
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2015-08-29T21:13:49Z resttime: axion: no problem, likewise I too am unfamiliar with MOP hahaha
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2015-08-29T21:16:05Z rm-r: main lisp dialects are scheme and common, what dialect is mostly functional but newer than scheme ?
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2015-08-29T21:17:33Z pjb: bizarrefish: check: Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
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2015-08-29T21:24:18Z pjb: resttime: a few years ago, a girl programmed such a programmable "magic" game.  Not using lisp, but still nicely done with 3D and full of magic effects and anything you'd program in it.
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2015-08-29T21:25:21Z pjb: See also: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thoughtstem/codespells-express-yourself-with-magic
2015-08-29T21:25:51Z pjb: http://www.nerdkingdom.com/game/
2015-08-29T21:26:10Z pjb: http://venturebeat.com/2014/06/03/12-games-that-teach-kids-to-code/
2015-08-29T21:26:12Z pjb: etc
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2015-08-29T21:27:17Z bizarrefish: pjb: Whoa, lots a stuff related
2015-08-29T21:27:56Z bizarrefish: I certainly didn't think I was the first person to think of this kind of development. I just assumed the community must have agreed on a de-facto way of doing it, and that I was missing a trick.
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2015-08-29T21:28:19Z pjb: bizarrefish: see also cll, currenlty Blake's interested in image based development too (coming from interlisp).
2015-08-29T21:30:01Z pjb: bizarrefish: check alos Mezzano (and Movitz). If you write programs in Mezzano  (REPL or not) you'll be doing IBD in a way, since Mezzano is a whole OS (kernel included) written in CL.
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2015-08-29T21:36:12Z pjb: bizarrefish: resttime: You may also have a close look at squeak, croquet, etoys and all that galaxy, both on the IBD side and on the live programmable (magical) environment.
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2015-08-29T21:40:29Z resttime: thanks, i'll check that stuff out
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2015-08-29T21:40:42Z JuanDaugherty: also there's #squeak et. all here
2015-08-29T21:40:47Z JuanDaugherty: *et al
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2015-08-29T23:06:21Z mprelude: Sometimes I see packages referred to as #:package, and sometimes :package (for example in use statements), what's the difference?
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2015-08-29T23:09:51Z scymtym: mprelude: #:package is read as an uninterned symbol while :package is read as the keyword
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2015-08-29T23:10:38Z scymtym: the motivation for using #:package probably is to not pollute the keyword package with package names
2015-08-29T23:11:18Z mprelude: Ah OK, that makes sense
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2015-08-30T00:58:55Z Lokathor: so i've got a common lisp file, and for it to work it depends on another common lisp file
2015-08-30T00:59:13Z Lokathor: i guess ASDF lets you define things so that it loads it all together properly?
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2015-08-30T01:00:41Z Lokathor: their page suggests several other options, i'm really not sure what to pick
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2015-08-30T01:06:09Z rme: Lokathor: For really simple cases, you can always write a little lisp file called load.lisp or someting, and have it contain the forms (load "file1") (load "file2").  Then, just do (load "load").
2015-08-30T01:06:39Z Lokathor: alright, that's about where i'm at right now
2015-08-30T01:07:25Z Lokathor: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") (ql:quickload :cl-charms) (load "packages.lisp") (load "charming.lisp")
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2015-08-30T02:56:53Z Lokathor: so if two values have to be returned from a function
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2015-08-30T02:57:21Z Lokathor: is values good, or is just consing them together preferred?
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2015-08-30T03:23:12Z |3b|: Lokathor: depends on how you are likely to use them, but probably VALUES
2015-08-30T03:23:32Z Lokathor: okay
2015-08-30T03:23:36Z |3b|: if you always need both, list or some other object containing both is reasonable
2015-08-30T03:23:49Z |3b|: if you usually only need 1 value, VALUES
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2015-08-30T03:23:59Z Lokathor: it's the width and height of a window, so you'll probably want to unpack both values all the time
2015-08-30T03:24:34Z |3b|: window dimensions i'd probably lean towards just having separate accessors
2015-08-30T03:25:04Z Lokathor: well they both get returned at once by C
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2015-08-30T03:25:55Z Lokathor: i could return (list :width x :height y) maybe
2015-08-30T03:26:18Z phf: Lokathor: you probably want to cons them or put them in a structure of some sort (dimensions-w ...) (dimensions-h ...) or whatever
2015-08-30T03:28:13Z phf: in values i always think of the rest of values is auxiliary, i.e. you expect first value to be used most of the time, and only sometimes someone might want to do (multiple-value-bind ...)
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2015-08-30T03:28:56Z phf: hyperspec provides good examples of values use-cases
2015-08-30T03:30:33Z Lokathor: i can't read hyperspec half the time i try >_<
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2015-08-30T03:31:35Z phf: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm
2015-08-30T03:33:09Z phf: it is really a mandatory skill when working with common lisp
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2015-08-30T03:34:38Z |3b|: VALUES is also sort of nice when you will usually want all the values, and want them separate... (m-v-bind (w h) (foo) ...) is not much  more verbose than (destructuring-bind (w h) (foo) ...), or extracting width/height from a list every time you use it
2015-08-30T03:35:04Z |3b|: though if you will usually be passing it directly to some other function, a single object might be more convenient
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2015-08-30T03:36:36Z phf: it breaks when you do hof though
2015-08-30T03:36:45Z Lokathor: (insert-char char &key window (x 0) (y 0))
2015-08-30T03:36:46Z Lokathor: nice
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2015-08-30T03:44:55Z lpaste_: Lokathor pasted “insert-char” at http://lpaste.net/139875
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2015-08-30T03:45:43Z Lokathor: this particular bit of code makes me very happy. You can't do this in haskell or java. could in python i suppose
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2015-08-30T04:13:54Z White_Flame: Lokathor: I don't think you need x-supplied-p or y-supplied-p, as passed parameters seem to be numeric
2015-08-30T04:14:13Z White_Flame: I'm not sure if passing :window nil is assumed either
2015-08-30T04:14:31Z White_Flame: It's certainly more defensive programming to use the supplied-p params, but not really all that common in my experience
2015-08-30T04:15:03Z White_Flame: so, for instance, the first cond could be (and win-supplied-op (or x y)) (charms/ll:mvwinsch winptr y x char)
2015-08-30T04:15:25Z Lokathor: hmm, well the paramaters x and y are expected to be numeric yes, but i want to differentiate from when they were delibterately passed in as 0 vs when they weren't passed in and defaulted to 0
2015-08-30T04:15:25Z White_Flame: oh, sorry, you default to zero, had skimmed that
2015-08-30T04:15:58Z White_Flame: yeah, with those semantics it does make sense
2015-08-30T04:17:35Z Lokathor: i personally expect that most calls I make would be (insert-char char) or (insert-char char :x x :y y), but others might care to use multi-window stuff
2015-08-30T04:18:01Z Lokathor: "others" might even be me in a few years :P
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2015-08-30T04:41:06Z lamaBinBama: (define (factorial n) (if (= n 1) 1 (* n (factorial (- n 1)))))
2015-08-30T04:41:20Z lamaBinBama: if I truly understand how the above works, do I understand recursion?
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2015-08-30T04:46:59Z gabriel_laddel: yes
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2015-08-30T04:50:12Z Lokathor: it controls your actions, but also obeys your commands.
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2015-08-30T04:51:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-30T04:51:16Z Lokathor: bonan matenon
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2015-08-30T04:52:19Z beach: drmeister: Around?
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2015-08-30T05:04:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there an "right way" to get the hostname with clack and ningle?
2015-08-30T05:05:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. for generating urls and such
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2015-08-30T05:11:26Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: the :server-name in the env
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2015-08-30T05:46:24Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-08-30T05:46:31Z drmeister: I saw your email.
2015-08-30T05:46:36Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-08-30T05:46:41Z drmeister: Thank you
2015-08-30T05:46:46Z beach: Sure.
2015-08-30T05:46:59Z drmeister: That should do the job
2015-08-30T05:47:02Z beach: So do you know what Clasp is doing with the information gathered?
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2015-08-30T05:47:20Z beach: ... and why?
2015-08-30T05:48:12Z beach: I am asking, because it is not strictly necessary to know whether CALL-NEXT-METHOD or NEXT-METHOD-P are referred to.
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2015-08-30T05:51:11Z drmeister: This is what the ECL CLOS code does with the information from walking the method:
2015-08-30T05:51:12Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/154479
2015-08-30T05:52:29Z drmeister: I'm looking at it to see if I can figure out what it means.
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2015-08-30T05:53:50Z beach: I think it means that it does not define local function CALL-NEXT-METHOD and  NEXT-METHOD-P unless they are actually called.
2015-08-30T05:54:25Z beach: If that is all it does, then the main reason for that would be to make the code for the method smaller.
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2015-08-30T05:54:57Z beach: And if *that* is the case, then you can just ignore the information and always define those functions.
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2015-08-30T05:56:05Z drmeister: I see
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2015-08-30T05:58:03Z Lokathor: is a macro worth writing if you only use it 3 times?
2015-08-30T05:58:06Z drmeister: Then no more code walking.
2015-08-30T05:58:16Z beach: drmeister: Correct.
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2015-08-30T05:58:51Z drmeister: To be more specific - that is the only place in the compiler where a code-walker is needed.
2015-08-30T05:59:03Z drmeister: *invoked.
2015-08-30T05:59:19Z beach: Ah, I see what you mean.
2015-08-30T06:00:06Z beach: drmeister: The other possibility that I considered for SICL is to define those functions globally: (defun call-next-method (&rest args) (funcall *call-next-method* ...))
2015-08-30T06:00:17Z drmeister: Code walking involves a lot of work.  My guess is more work than generating the functions that it is trying to avoid generating.
2015-08-30T06:00:19Z beach: And then bind *call-next-method* when there are next methods.
2015-08-30T06:00:40Z beach: drmeister: I think that's true.
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2015-08-30T06:01:07Z beach: drmeister: It might be the case that code size was more important when that stuff was written than it is now.
2015-08-30T06:01:37Z beach: drmeister: But I rarely find the reason for the existence of such code.
2015-08-30T06:02:46Z |3b|: Lokathor: depends on the macro, some macros are worth writing to only use once
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2015-08-30T06:03:21Z Lokathor: i think i'll hold off in this situation
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2015-08-30T06:06:35Z Lokathor: i *believe* that my "minimum useful curses wrapper" is done
2015-08-30T06:07:01Z Lokathor: i will have to write a demo and test it tomorrow
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2015-08-30T06:10:42Z drmeister: I commented it out - I'll generate those functions every time.  Cleavir environments should no longer leak into bclasp's compiler.
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2015-08-30T06:19:01Z beach: drmeister: OK, let me know how it turns out.
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2015-08-30T06:26:58Z beach: At some point, I'll stick a meter in SICL in order to measure how often CALL-NEXT-METHOD is called.
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2015-08-30T06:29:43Z beach: My conjecture: In performance-critical code, not often.
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2015-08-30T06:34:21Z drmeister: beach: It compiles fine without code walking
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2015-08-30T06:35:54Z beach: Great!
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2015-08-30T06:36:52Z drmeister: Cleavir uses it a lot
2015-08-30T06:37:12Z drmeister: I mean - it shows up in the backtraces a lot
2015-08-30T06:37:33Z beach: Right.
2015-08-30T06:38:20Z beach: But that is not enough information to determine whether it is performance critical.
2015-08-30T06:38:56Z beach: And Cleavir itself is not a performance-critical application.
2015-08-30T06:39:14Z drmeister: Says you! :-)
2015-08-30T06:39:39Z beach: Right.  I realize that it doesn't feel that way to you right now.
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2015-08-30T06:40:12Z drmeister: Clasp's static analyzer - it analyzes Clasp's C++ code and generates the interface for the Memory Pool System garbage collector - is running again.
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2015-08-30T06:40:27Z beach: Excellent!
2015-08-30T06:40:37Z beach: That's a big chunk, right?
2015-08-30T06:41:19Z drmeister: It forks 16 copies of itself and each analyzes 1/16th of the C++ code.   I changed it so that it uses the Common Lisp printer/reader to serialize its intermediate results.
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2015-08-30T06:41:59Z drmeister: beach: Yeah, it's a sizable application, I need it to build the MPS version of Clasp.
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2015-08-30T06:44:07Z drmeister: Methods still work and call-next-method works.
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2015-08-30T06:45:14Z beach: Good, that's what I suspected.
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2015-08-30T06:45:51Z drmeister: That should do it.   I'll build cclasp and test slime in the morning.   If slime works I've got a new master branch.
2015-08-30T06:46:02Z beach: I think that only final code size of methods will be affected.  It should have very little influence on execution time.
2015-08-30T06:46:31Z beach: That sounds like significant progress.
2015-08-30T06:46:47Z beach: It has been a while since you did that, hasn't it?
2015-08-30T06:46:54Z drmeister: Several months
2015-08-30T06:47:08Z beach: Wow.
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2015-08-30T06:47:28Z drmeister: I've got proper backtraces now - it makes debugging much more pleasant
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2015-08-30T06:48:00Z drmeister: I've said that already, but it really does.
2015-08-30T06:48:46Z drmeister: The call-with-variable-bound entries aren't too bad either now that they show what variables are bound.
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2015-08-30T06:51:00Z drmeister: Anyway, it's almost 3:00am and I have a lot to do tomorrow.
2015-08-30T06:51:07Z drmeister: Thank you for your help and good night.
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2015-08-30T06:52:37Z beach: 'night drmeister.
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2015-08-30T07:27:53Z pjb: Lokathor: phf:  It should be noticed that despite the longer names, multiple-value ought to be (much) more efficient to return multiple values than packing them in a list or structure and then destructuring them.  So even when you have values of equal importance or frequency of use, it's still a good idea to use multiple values in internal functions. cf. decode-universal-time for example.
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2015-08-30T07:28:40Z pjb: phf: you can always wrap a multiple-value-list to do hof.
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2015-08-30T07:30:24Z pjb: (reduce (lambda (a b) (+ (* 60 a) b)) (reverse (subseq (multiple-value-list (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time))) 0 3))) #| --> 34204 |#  (/ 34204 3600.0) #| --> 9.501111 |#
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2015-08-30T07:32:34Z pjb: Lokathor: a macro is worth writing if you only use it 1 times (and some macros, even 0 times).
2015-08-30T07:34:09Z pjb: Lokathor: the 1 time situation still improves code quality, readability, and maintainability, by introducing a higher level abstraction, and automatizing the code production, therefore reducing the probabilties of bug introduced by human editors. (the kind of bugs you found in openssl, for example, copy-pasted goto, and stuff).
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2015-08-30T07:35:10Z Lokathor: well in this case, they don't quite match
2015-08-30T07:35:30Z pjb: Lokathor: the 0 time case can be useful as a way of documentating a design pattern, even if you don't use the macro, you may still read the macro and copy the pattern with variants.  Of course, in this case it would be preferable to improve the macro to match your case and use it, but sometimes, this would be too costly.
2015-08-30T07:35:50Z Lokathor: i was considering a macro for getch, wgetch, mvgetch, mvwgetch and the insch and such variants
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2015-08-30T07:36:15Z Lokathor: https://github.com/Lokathor/seric/blob/master/charming.lisp this is what i ended up with at the end of the night
2015-08-30T07:36:33Z pjb: Lokathor: assumedly a macro code generation is debugged.  The source code might not (it may contain bugs).
2015-08-30T07:36:41Z pjb: Therefore I would prefer to use macros.
2015-08-30T07:36:48Z pjb: that to write flat code.
2015-08-30T07:36:54Z pjb: s/that/than/
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2015-08-30T07:39:31Z White_Flame: Lokathor: you might also want to look into compiler macros to optimize those cases
2015-08-30T07:39:54Z Lokathor: White_Flame, what do you mean?
2015-08-30T07:40:03Z White_Flame: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_define.htm
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2015-08-30T07:41:06Z White_Flame: it's basically an optional optimization pass you can add to existing functions, to transform the source into a more optimal, less runtime-dispatchy form
2015-08-30T07:41:16Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-08-30T07:41:24Z White_Flame: without having to include the actual final behavior
2015-08-30T07:41:27Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2015-08-30T07:41:27Z White_Flame: re
2015-08-30T07:41:41Z Lokathor: but the runtime dispatchy part is what's cool :/
2015-08-30T07:41:52Z White_Flame: right, you don't have to remove that
2015-08-30T07:42:06Z White_Flame: but it should macro-compile directly to the final form when that is unambiguous from literal parameters
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2015-08-30T07:42:16Z White_Flame: while allowing it to be runtime-dispatchy when the parameters aren't literal
2015-08-30T07:42:28Z Lokathor: oh, hmm
2015-08-30T07:42:40Z Lokathor: can you put keywords into symbols?
2015-08-30T07:42:45Z Lokathor: i guess you can
2015-08-30T07:42:52Z Lokathor: they can go in lists after all
2015-08-30T07:42:52Z White_Flame: keywords are symbols?
2015-08-30T07:43:19Z White_Flame: they're just symbols that happen to be in the "KEYWORD" package
2015-08-30T07:43:26Z Lokathor: right
2015-08-30T07:43:36Z Lokathor: didn't occur till just now
2015-08-30T07:44:04Z Lokathor: well i don't imagine that calls to get-key and co would ever not use literals to provide the keyword arguments
2015-08-30T07:44:09Z Lokathor: so such a macro might be good
2015-08-30T07:44:27Z Lokathor: i do not know how to write a macro, but i will learn some time i suppose
2015-08-30T07:45:45Z Lokathor: it doesn't help that hyperspec has a "syntax" section that is almost entirely unlike what the lisp syntax for a thing would be
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2015-08-30T07:47:12Z White_Flame: I think the examples in define-compiler-macro are reasonable
2015-08-30T07:47:30Z White_Flame: but yeah, the fact that the syntax omits the top-level parens always has seemed strange to me, too
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2015-08-30T07:48:48Z Lokathor: i need a version of this that i can change the .css on maybe
2015-08-30T07:49:11Z White_Flame: there are official download links somewhere for the CLHS
2015-08-30T07:49:11Z Lokathor: remove italic on links, change all other italic for emphasis to use <tt> instead
2015-08-30T07:49:16Z White_Flame: you can integrate a local copy with SLIME
2015-08-30T07:49:39Z Lokathor: well my slime pops up what i need to fill in to finish a use of things when i'm typing
2015-08-30T07:49:41Z White_Flame: I, for instance, put direct links into chapter dictionaries right from the table of contents, since that's where I end up the most
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2015-08-30T07:50:59Z Lokathor: so, ` quotes a thing in a macro and then , dequotes that next thing
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2015-08-30T07:51:38Z pjb: no #\` is unrelated to macros.
2015-08-30T07:51:42Z White_Flame: not just in a macro
2015-08-30T07:51:52Z White_Flame: it's a standard list structuring shortcut
2015-08-30T07:52:07Z pjb: a sexp template.
2015-08-30T07:52:17Z White_Flame: `( 1 2 ,expr ,@expr-returning-a-list `(nest them ,too))
2015-08-30T07:52:23Z pjb: (let ((v 2)) `#(1 ,v 3)) #| --> #(1 2 3) |# works with non lists too.
2015-08-30T07:52:38Z Lokathor: so ` makes a thing a list and ' makes it be quoted?
2015-08-30T07:52:50Z White_Flame: ` is a quote that you can "unquote" inside
2015-08-30T07:52:51Z pjb: Lokathor: nope. works with sexps, not with lists.
2015-08-30T07:53:11Z White_Flame: ' is a quote that you can't unquote inside
2015-08-30T07:53:23Z pjb: this is wrong:
2015-08-30T07:53:36Z pjb: (let ((v 33)) `(1 (quote ,v) 2)) #| --> (1 '33 2) |#
2015-08-30T07:53:52Z pjb: You really have strange and distorted mental models…
2015-08-30T07:54:25Z beach: who?
2015-08-30T07:54:39Z pjb: White_Flame: Lokathor, etc.
2015-08-30T07:54:47Z pjb: beach: ^
2015-08-30T07:54:56Z White_Flame: beach: pjb :)
2015-08-30T07:55:09Z Lokathor: well i never said (quote ,v) like taht
2015-08-30T07:55:27Z White_Flame: (and now, time for chat with only nicks)
2015-08-30T07:55:38Z pjb: :-)
2015-08-30T07:55:57Z Lokathor: i think every time i say list
2015-08-30T07:56:01Z Lokathor: i mean sexp
2015-08-30T07:57:21Z Lokathor: wait what is `#
2015-08-30T07:57:29Z White_Flame: it's ` before #(
2015-08-30T07:57:34Z beach: *sigh*
2015-08-30T07:57:53Z pjb: See what I mean, no notion of reader macros.
2015-08-30T07:58:01Z pjb: Why don't you just read the chapter 2?
2015-08-30T07:58:11Z Lokathor: i did read the chapter 2
2015-08-30T07:58:19Z beach: pjb: And an attitude problem to go with that.
2015-08-30T07:58:22Z White_Flame: #(an array of symbols)  (a list of symbols)
2015-08-30T07:58:34Z Lokathor: oh
2015-08-30T07:58:43Z Lokathor: i though it was another weird thing because of #'
2015-08-30T07:58:52Z pjb: Lokathor: then remember, #\` is a reader macro, #\# is a dispatching reader macro.  "`#" is nothing.
2015-08-30T07:58:58Z White_Flame: # is the first character of every standard macro that uses it
2015-08-30T07:59:03Z pjb: no.
2015-08-30T07:59:12Z pjb: of every standard _dispatching_ _reader_ macros.
2015-08-30T07:59:15Z White_Flame: ...standard reader macro
2015-08-30T07:59:16Z pjb: macros are very different.
2015-08-30T07:59:16Z White_Flame: right
2015-08-30T07:59:20Z pjb: _dispatching_.
2015-08-30T07:59:41Z pjb: It's assumed a programmer will have between 5 and 9 neurons. 7 on average…
2015-08-30T07:59:55Z Lokathor: you're being pretty harsh there pal
2015-08-30T07:59:59Z pjb: :-)
2015-08-30T08:00:03Z pjb: just joking hey.
2015-08-30T08:00:37Z White_Flame: are there other uses of # in the standard besides the dispatching reader macros?
2015-08-30T08:00:53Z Lokathor: so what's a "dispatching" reader macro?
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2015-08-30T08:01:05Z White_Flame: dispatches on the next character not just the #
2015-08-30T08:01:16Z pjb: Well, the printer will write #\# with a different syntax for elision of long and deep sub sexps.
2015-08-30T08:01:17Z White_Flame: (might be correct by people who know more... ;) )
2015-08-30T08:01:31Z pjb: Not the next character.
2015-08-30T08:01:33Z White_Flame: ...corrected, sheesh
2015-08-30T08:02:17Z pjb: Lokathor: a dispatching reader macro will read an optional integer argument and it will further dispatch on the next non-digit character (coalesing multi-case characters, ie. case insensibly).
2015-08-30T08:02:40Z beach: pjb: I admire your patience.
2015-08-30T08:02:48Z pjb: Notice that you can write other kinds of dispatching reader macros.  This is only the behavior of the standard dispatching reader macros.
2015-08-30T08:03:04Z pjb: beach: I'm still at the stage "somebody's wrong on the internet".
2015-08-30T08:03:05Z Lokathor: i thought #' was for saying a thing should be it's function value not its symbol value. when you want to pass around a function
2015-08-30T08:03:45Z White_Flame: # is a precursor to lots of reader macro functionality
2015-08-30T08:04:07Z White_Flame: and #'expr is just a shortcut for (function expr)
2015-08-30T08:04:25Z pjb: Lokathor: (let (#'2) (+ function 3)) #| --> 5 |#
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2015-08-30T08:04:32Z White_Flame: it's the FUNCTION form that has the actual behavior
2015-08-30T08:04:43Z pjb: exactly.
2015-08-30T08:04:53Z pjb: #' by itself is only something to be read.
2015-08-30T08:04:57Z White_Flame: (not yelling, just upper-casing the symbol ;) )
2015-08-30T08:05:02Z beach: pjb: Nice example.
2015-08-30T08:05:20Z Lokathor: i don't understand that example one bit
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2015-08-30T08:05:33Z White_Flame: Lokathor: expand #'2 to (function 2)
2015-08-30T08:05:44Z pjb: But then, notice that #P does do something at read-time! (type-of (quote #P"/home/pjb/")) #| --> pathname |#
2015-08-30T08:05:47Z White_Flame: since that's generally all what reader macros do
2015-08-30T08:06:02Z pjb: So you can use #P inside quoted lists, but not #'.
2015-08-30T08:06:49Z pjb: On the other hand, #P resolves the pathname in the compilation environment, and this might not be what you want (you may want to resolve it at run-time, on a different computer; then you can't use #P, you have to use pathname at runtime).
2015-08-30T08:06:54Z beach: pjb: (let (#'2) (+ #.(car '#'3) 5)) => 7 :)
2015-08-30T08:07:30Z pjb: Perhaps we could still have an obfuscated lisp contest, using only #. :-)
2015-08-30T08:07:49Z beach: Sure, I'm in! :)
2015-08-30T08:08:37Z White_Flame tends to stick to non-weirded-up code and declines ;)
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2015-08-30T08:09:02Z Lokathor: so it works because of lisp-2 crazyness
2015-08-30T08:09:11Z pjb: Yes :-)
2015-08-30T08:09:25Z beach: Definitely an attitude problem.
2015-08-30T08:09:53Z Lokathor: beach what are you talking about
2015-08-30T08:17:32Z Lokathor: so #( makes an array because it's a reader macro
2015-08-30T08:18:46Z White_Flame: yes, just like ( makes a list because it's a reader macro
2015-08-30T08:19:33Z Lokathor: the entire parser is nothing but reader macros
2015-08-30T08:19:39Z Lokathor: ?
2015-08-30T08:19:53Z White_Flame: the reader is effectively a parser
2015-08-30T08:19:54Z pjb: I would say the #( dispatching reader macro builds an array filled with data read.  It "reads" as an array.
2015-08-30T08:20:02Z White_Flame: the word "parser" really isn't part of the lisp language
2015-08-30T08:20:31Z Lokathor: you keep saying dispatching. are there non-dispatching reader macros
2015-08-30T08:20:40Z pjb: Lokathor: basically.  The standard lisp reader algorithm still has a tokenizer for integer, floating-points and symbols, but all the rest is done thru reader macros that can be changed in the readtable.
2015-08-30T08:20:53Z White_Flame: but the reader is what deals with constructing symbols, numeric forms, strings, lists, arrays, structure literals, etc
2015-08-30T08:20:57Z pjb: Lokathor: yes. #\' #\( #\; etc are non-dispatching.
2015-08-30T08:21:10Z pjb: They just do what they do, without going thru an additionnal table.
2015-08-30T08:21:25Z White_Flame: #\ is a dispatching reader macro
2015-08-30T08:21:48Z pjb: #\  is space. Not a reader macro. It's processed specially by the standard lisp reader algorithm.
2015-08-30T08:22:15Z pjb: #\# #\\ or "#\\" is indeed a dispatching reader macro to read characters.
2015-08-30T08:22:29Z Lokathor: so you could override what #' does by adjusting the table... but you can't override what ; does because there's no table lookup?
2015-08-30T08:22:46Z pjb: Lokathor: yes, #\; is a reader macro, so you can override it.
2015-08-30T08:22:54Z pjb: clhs set-macro-character
2015-08-30T08:22:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
2015-08-30T08:23:00Z pjb: clhs set-dispatch-macro-character
2015-08-30T08:23:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm
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2015-08-30T08:23:43Z jackdaniel: I've got an idea, override #\; the way, that if it "sees" -) as next characters, then it reports an error "we are serious here", otherwise it is still just a line comment
2015-08-30T08:24:59Z Lokathor: but in this example
2015-08-30T08:25:08Z White_Flame: that wouldn't see ;-) inside comments or strings, though
2015-08-30T08:25:21Z Lokathor: #\' is calling a function?
2015-08-30T08:25:36Z Lokathor: but you said it was non-dispatching
2015-08-30T08:25:44Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-30T08:25:54Z White_Flame: yes, it dispatches on the backslash, which then does its character-creating functionality associated with #\
2015-08-30T08:25:59Z pjb: (defun quote-reader (stream ch) (declare (ignore ch)) `(quote ,(read stream)))
2015-08-30T08:26:40Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\' (function quote-reader))
2015-08-30T08:26:45Z pjb: and it should still work like before.
2015-08-30T08:27:08Z pjb: (defvar *literals* (make-hash-table :test (function equal)))
2015-08-30T08:27:44Z pjb: (defun quote-reader (stream ch) (declare (ignore ch)) (let ((object  (read stream))) `(quote ,(or (gethash object *literals*) (setf (gethash object *literals*) object)))))
2015-08-30T08:27:47Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\' (function quote-reader))
2015-08-30T08:27:53Z White_Flame: Lokathor: if you haven't looked it up yet, here are all the #-prefixed dispatching macro characters: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2015-08-30T08:28:01Z pjb: and it should still work like before, but now (eq '(a b c) '(a b c)) --> t
2015-08-30T08:28:51Z Lokathor: okay but i still don't know what non-dispatching vs dispatching means
2015-08-30T08:29:22Z Lokathor: does "dispatching" not mean "function call using"
2015-08-30T08:29:31Z pjb: Use: (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) ; to reset the readtable to the standard one.
2015-08-30T08:29:34Z White_Flame: it means "make a decision on data"
2015-08-30T08:29:46Z pjb: Lokathor: dispatching means that it uses 2 characters to find the function.
2015-08-30T08:29:48Z White_Flame: ` does quoting work, period
2015-08-30T08:29:59Z White_Flame: # dispatches on the next number/field
2015-08-30T08:30:04Z pjb: Lokathor: didn't you read the clhs pages cited above?
2015-08-30T08:30:07Z White_Flame: ` does not dispatch, it performs one job
2015-08-30T08:30:41Z pjb: Lokathor: we cannot do the reading for you.
2015-08-30T08:30:53Z White_Flame: though you could say the readtable means every starting character is dispatching, not just after #
2015-08-30T08:30:59Z Lokathor: pjb, i saw the words but most of them do not make sense to me
2015-08-30T08:31:18Z White_Flame: well, that the starting state of the reader is dispatching
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2015-08-30T08:31:27Z pjb: set-dispatch-macro-character takes an additionnal sub-char parameter.
2015-08-30T08:31:38Z White_Flame: yeah, reading the spec does take a fair bit of learning curve to get up on all the intertwined vocabulary
2015-08-30T08:31:50Z White_Flame: but they're all hotlinked to glossary entries, at least.  reading the web of them should help
2015-08-30T08:32:11Z pjb: disp-char is the macro character bound to the dispatching function that will read the optional cardinal argument, and then read the sub-char which is used to dispatch to the actual reader macro.
2015-08-30T08:32:39Z White_Flame: also, is "dispatching reader macro" actualy a thing, or just "dispatching macro _character_"
2015-08-30T08:32:50Z White_Flame: because it's really the # that instigates the dispatch
2015-08-30T08:33:01Z White_Flame: and only "dispatching macro character" occurs in the glossary
2015-08-30T08:34:03Z pjb: (defun dispatch-macro-reader (stream disp-char) (let ((arg (if (digit-char-p (peek-char nil stream)) (read-integer stream) nil)) (sub-char  (read-char stream))) (funcall (gethash (gethash disp-char *dispatching-tables*)) stream disp-char sub-char)))
2015-08-30T08:35:06Z pjb: Lokathor: after reading clhs, you may want to read some implementation to understand more concretely what this is all about.
2015-08-30T08:35:38Z pjb: Actually, a lot of lisp is so simple, it is very much better understood and explained by reading an implementation.
2015-08-30T08:36:01Z pjb: Imagine that the standard came (- 1994 1959) #| --> 35 |#  years after the implementation!
2015-08-30T08:36:14Z Lokathor: that's not unusual
2015-08-30T08:36:40Z Lokathor: does your client do that #| |# output thing for you?
2015-08-30T08:36:49Z pjb: Nowadays we stick to the standard, because it's a good contract between programmers and implementers, to allow writing portable code (conforming code).
2015-08-30T08:37:04Z pjb: Lokathor: I have an emacs command that does that in erc.
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2015-08-30T08:39:20Z pjb: Lokathor: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-erc.el#L966
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2015-08-30T08:44:54Z pjb: Patched it to insert multiple values on a single line: (values 1 2 3) #| --> 1 ; 2 ; 3 |#
2015-08-30T08:45:08Z Lokathor: so ( starts a reader macro based on nothing
2015-08-30T08:45:23Z Lokathor: and # starts a reader macro based on whatever the next single character is
2015-08-30T08:45:35Z pjb: #\( is bound to a reader macro with set-macro-character.
2015-08-30T08:45:59Z pjb: Lokathor: the next non-digit character, case insensitive.
2015-08-30T08:47:03Z Lokathor: so this chart
2015-08-30T08:47:18Z Lokathor: only has english characters, but i assume non-english also works?
2015-08-30T08:48:47Z pjb: Check http://paste.lisp.org/+3B74
2015-08-30T08:48:56Z pjb: Lokathor: yes, any character will do.
2015-08-30T08:49:36Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\λ (lambda (stream ch) (declare (ignore stream ch)) 'cl:lambda))
2015-08-30T08:50:24Z pjb: (set-macro-character #\λ (lambda (stream ch) (declare (ignore stream ch))
2015-08-30T08:50:24Z pjb: 'cl:lambda))
2015-08-30T08:50:44Z pjb: (funcall ((λ (x) (λ (y) (funcall x y))) (λ (x) (list x x))) 2) #| --> (2 2) |#
2015-08-30T08:51:10Z pjb: (Sorry for the useless duplicate set-macro-character.)
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2015-08-30T08:52:15Z Lokathor: lisp 1-liners are pretty hard to read
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2015-08-30T08:52:55Z pjb: copy-paste them and insert newlines.
2015-08-30T08:53:09Z pjb: or use (pprint '(one-liner)) to have lisp do it for you.
2015-08-30T08:53:16Z Lokathor: hmm
2015-08-30T08:53:20Z Lokathor: pprint
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2015-08-30T11:12:33Z AeroNotix: Anyone know a good place to get CtTL shipped to Poland?
2015-08-30T11:12:53Z AeroNotix: Amazon won't do it!
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2015-08-30T11:15:07Z gko: CtTL ?
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2015-08-30T11:17:46Z jackdaniel: I bet you mean CLtL
2015-08-30T11:17:58Z AeroNotix: duh, yes, sorry
2015-08-30T11:18:00Z AeroNotix: CLtL
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2015-08-30T11:19:16Z jackdaniel: jak to nie zrobi tego?
2015-08-30T11:19:27Z jackdaniel: why amazon won't do it
2015-08-30T11:19:42Z jackdaniel: sorry! (saw word "Poland" and something in my mind switched ;-)
2015-08-30T11:22:09Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: because they simply say "This item cannot be shipped to your location"
2015-08-30T11:22:22Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2015-08-30T11:22:56Z jackdaniel: book depository doesn't have it
2015-08-30T11:23:50Z AeroNotix: I'll try allegro
2015-08-30T11:24:32Z AeroNotix: Nope
2015-08-30T11:24:40Z edgar-rft: In the CMU archives there are PostScript and DVI versions of CLtL2 available for download, from that you could print your own book if you really want: <https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html>
2015-08-30T11:25:25Z theos: AeroNotix get an ebook?
2015-08-30T11:25:27Z jackdaniel: yeah, that should cost ~ 100zł I think
2015-08-30T11:25:33Z jackdaniel: if you want hard-cover
2015-08-30T11:25:40Z jackdaniel: maybe 150
2015-08-30T11:26:03Z AeroNotix: I want a real book.
2015-08-30T11:26:11Z theos: heh
2015-08-30T11:26:14Z AeroNotix: I find the older books like this are very poorly formatted when converted to ebook
2015-08-30T11:26:36Z theos: thats not true at all. get a real pdf.
2015-08-30T11:26:51Z AeroNotix: theos: source? Looking at edgar-rft's link above
2015-08-30T11:27:23Z edgar-rft: There are also the LaTex sources (same link)
2015-08-30T11:27:43Z jackdaniel: latex sources give you opportunity to create beautiful printable version
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2015-08-30T11:28:11Z AeroNotix: I'll give it a go! Thanks all.
2015-08-30T11:28:47Z theos: AeroNotix https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/cltl/cltl_ps.tgz
2015-08-30T11:28:54Z AeroNotix: thanks
2015-08-30T11:29:00Z jackdaniel: theos: this version is skewed
2015-08-30T11:29:44Z theos: jackdaniel looks fine to me. what do you mean by skewed?
2015-08-30T11:30:03Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe just an impression
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2015-08-30T11:33:10Z theos: AeroNotix www.lispmachine.net/books/common_lisp_the_language.pdf
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2015-08-30T11:35:05Z AeroNotix: theos: awesome
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2015-08-30T11:36:40Z edgar-rft: Is www.lispmachine.net down or dead? Can anybody access it or it only here that it doesn't work?
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2015-08-30T11:38:07Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: works for me
2015-08-30T11:38:23Z AeroNotix: edgar-rft: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/lispmachine.net
2015-08-30T11:39:30Z edgar-rft: Okay thanks, then there must be something broken here...
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2015-08-30T12:48:20Z axion: if I have a list of instances, how can I use FIND to get the object whose specific slot value is EQL to the supplied argument?
2015-08-30T12:49:37Z jackdaniel: axion: maybe use slot accessor as key value?
2015-08-30T12:50:07Z jackdaniel: (find value *instances* :key #'slot-accessor)
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2015-08-30T12:51:09Z ggole: find-if?
2015-08-30T12:52:03Z axion: thank you. completely missed :key in clhs
2015-08-30T12:52:37Z jackdaniel: many builtin operators support both key and test keywords
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2015-08-30T13:07:05Z pjb: AeroNotix: c'était bien la peine d'entrer dans l'OTAN et d'acheter des avions américains!
2015-08-30T13:07:30Z AeroNotix: pjb: I agree.
2015-08-30T13:07:46Z AeroNotix: actually I don't speak french very well
2015-08-30T13:08:59Z pjb: It's ok. ;-)
2015-08-30T13:09:11Z pjb: I don't speak Polish very well either.
2015-08-30T13:09:32Z chrnybo: What is your workflow for making small contribs to libraries you download with quickload?
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2015-08-30T13:10:47Z pjb: find the github or gitlab repository, got to github/gitlab to clone the repo, git clone $your_clone ; emacs ; git commit -a -m 'Patch: radada' ; git push; got to github/gitlab to make a pull request.
2015-08-30T13:10:50Z pjb: It's a shame.
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2015-08-30T13:12:02Z pjb: Before you would just: tar zxvf tarball.tar.bz ; cp -a  tarball tarball-orig ; cd tarball ; emacs ; cd .. ; diff -Naurtwb tarball-orig tarball | mail -s 'my contrib' author@example.com
2015-08-30T13:13:21Z chrnybo: pjb: driving foreign agents crazy by leaving "Naurtwb" on a post-it under your keyboard
2015-08-30T13:13:39Z jackdaniel: if you know the address you may: git clone internety:repo.git ; cd repo ; emacs ; git commit -a -m "bah" ; git format-patch HEAD~1 ; mail -s "my contrib" author@example.com <<< 0001*patch
2015-08-30T13:13:53Z pjb: twb is optional, but I have the bad habit of messing with spaces.
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2015-08-30T13:18:45Z chrnybo: Thanks, nice to know that there's no obviously smarter way atm.  If I only could get in the habit to make a copy of repo in local-dists before I start messing with the files, I'd have something to diff as well.
2015-08-30T13:19:43Z AeroNotix: this is why I like to try to have a project-local quicklisp directory
2015-08-30T13:19:50Z AeroNotix: also makes things much more repeatable
2015-08-30T13:19:57Z AeroNotix: but it's a PITA to set up nicely.
2015-08-30T13:20:04Z AeroNotix: Kind of like virtualenv for quicklisp
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2015-08-30T13:20:33Z AeroNotix: chrnybo: if the soure is from a git repo, you already have the history to being with?
2015-08-30T13:20:37Z pjb: chrnybo: you could write a smarter way.
2015-08-30T13:20:56Z jackdaniel: feature-request: (ql:git-a-lize :package)
2015-08-30T13:22:03Z AeroNotix: doesn't quicklisp typically pull from VCS repos?
2015-08-30T13:22:37Z pjb: chrnybo: check https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2015-08-30T13:22:38Z jackdaniel: it's two-phase, as far as I understand Xach pulls stuff each month, tests if it works and "freezes" it
2015-08-30T13:22:54Z jackdaniel: removing git part for more lightweight distribution
2015-08-30T13:23:02Z AeroNotix: makes sense.
2015-08-30T13:23:11Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: That feature is on Xach's todo.
2015-08-30T13:23:18Z Shinmera: Lightweight distribution isn't the primary reason
2015-08-30T13:23:19Z AeroNotix: I was thinking though that some metadata could be maintained in the package info somewhere
2015-08-30T13:23:19Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: that's good to know, thanks
2015-08-30T13:23:37Z chrnybo: AeroNotix: Yes, from VCS repos, but the libs don't arrive on my disk as git repos.
2015-08-30T13:23:42Z Shinmera: The reason he does it is to ensure that there's a reproducible and tested-to-build version every month that people can reliably get.
2015-08-30T13:24:02Z AeroNotix: chrnybo: true I was just thinking that their source could be maintained somewhere so it's easy to see where they came from
2015-08-30T13:24:06Z Shinmera: It makes versioning actually work. If you just had git for everything you could not possibly anticipate all possible version combinations of the dependency tree.
2015-08-30T13:24:15Z pjb: chrnybo: So you could write a (quicklisp-get-source :system) function that would prepare a directory for you to modify, and a (quicklisp-contribute :system) function that would perform the pull requests or emailed patches needed.
2015-08-30T13:24:29Z AeroNotix: oooo that's nice
2015-08-30T13:24:44Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: it could be distrubuted as git fixed on some commit though
2015-08-30T13:24:51Z jackdaniel: or tag
2015-08-30T13:24:52Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Consider Windows.
2015-08-30T13:25:08Z Shinmera: "git" and any other software are not actually portable.
2015-08-30T13:25:36Z jackdaniel: having ".git" directory won't make windows version non-working
2015-08-30T13:26:02Z Shinmera: It would be very bloated having the .git or whatever on every repository every month.
2015-08-30T13:26:12Z jackdaniel: that's what I meant by "lightweight"
2015-08-30T13:26:58Z Shinmera: Also, depending on your VCS it's not always solved by a subfolder in the project, so simply not including any source information is more streamlined.
2015-08-30T13:27:00Z axion: git revision history is often times quite large for old projects, too, and QL does not purge older versions from it's installation directory
2015-08-30T13:27:18Z Shinmera: axion: That's what I said.
2015-08-30T13:27:27Z AeroNotix: Why can't it just be a link to the source in the metadata
2015-08-30T13:27:32Z AeroNotix: doesn't have to be the actual .git
2015-08-30T13:27:39Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: Because that's an ASDF3 feature.
2015-08-30T13:27:54Z Shinmera: Or do you mean QL metadata?
2015-08-30T13:27:58Z AeroNotix: Either really
2015-08-30T13:28:15Z Shinmera: I personally do include the :homepage system field on all my projects.
2015-08-30T13:28:22Z Shinmera: But it's not very widespread.
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2015-08-30T13:29:05Z Shinmera: I think there's also a :source-control field, actually.
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2015-08-30T13:51:12Z jason_m: just an observation - i think this is a characteristic of package mgmt in general.  Consider linux debian/fedora/ubuntu repositories - they are often a version or a couple behind so that all the dependencies between packages work out.  If you want to get latest and patch it, that's a separate path.  (Yes, I know there are "bleeding edge" source distros too)
2015-08-30T13:53:59Z Shinmera: The problem isn't that it's packaged. The problem is that it's too annoying to switch to a rolling release.
2015-08-30T13:54:38Z Shinmera: Which, again, is a thing Xach has on the feature list for Quicklisp 1.0, so we'll just have to wait warmly for him to get to it, and potentially also donate more so that he can devote more time to quicklisp in general.
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2015-08-30T13:57:28Z DeadTrickster: hey guys! I'm trying to catch random mysql 'lost connection (2013)' while using clsql-mysql. I built libmysqlclient with debug turned on. Now if I run queries from repl I see debug output. But if query executed in another thread I see nothing. I'm using sbcl, btw.
2015-08-30T13:58:00Z chrnybo: DeadTrickster: Running in slime?
2015-08-30T13:58:04Z DeadTrickster: libmysql uses dbug C library which writes everything in stderr or files.
2015-08-30T13:58:18Z DeadTrickster: chrnybo, no, terminal emulator
2015-08-30T14:00:19Z DeadTrickster: funny thing btw - yesterday the same query failed with 2013 error like 90% times... now it works. If I run it using standard mysql console tool it works flawlessly
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2015-08-30T14:01:09Z DeadTrickster: I think it probably depends on server load, I checked mysql session settings, they are the same, I think it somehow related to interrupts or stuff like that
2015-08-30T14:01:58Z DeadTrickster: because I have raw network dumps - responses are coming ok. it just internal libmysql mechanics that fails
2015-08-30T14:02:27Z DeadTrickster: so I want to trace libmysqlclient call to find point of failure
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2015-08-30T14:06:14Z jason_m: DeadTrickster: If you want to be able to step through the clsql-mysql code, you may need to rebuild it optimized for debug
2015-08-30T14:06:58Z DeadTrickster: jason_m, I want to see trace of libmysqlclient queries running in different thread (not main)
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2015-08-30T14:08:31Z jason_m: DeadTrickster: Can you configure the client to log queries and tail the log file?
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2015-08-30T14:10:29Z jason_m: DeadTrickster: Might be of help? http://www.daharveyjr.com/mysql-client-debugging-using-the-general-query-log/
2015-08-30T14:11:43Z DeadTrickster: http://pastebin.com/ccLZv7xz
2015-08-30T14:11:53Z DeadTrickster: here what I can see in main sbcl thread
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2015-08-30T14:12:13Z DeadTrickster: I want to see the same stuff but when queries executed in different threads too
2015-08-30T14:14:02Z DeadTrickster: jason_m, thank you for the link but query logs just not useful here unfortunately on server side I see something like 'client gone...' or 'unexpected disconnect' I don't remember exactly but it looks similar
2015-08-30T14:14:30Z DeadTrickster: also these query 'long'
2015-08-30T14:14:35Z DeadTrickster: isn't
2015-08-30T14:15:05Z DeadTrickster: so it looks and feels like random network failures although on network level everything is ok.
2015-08-30T14:18:11Z jason_m: I haven't played with threading in lisp.  When you create a thread, can you pass it a std output stream?
2015-08-30T14:18:24Z jason_m: Something like this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27178642/sbcl-multiple-threads-write-to-standard-output
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2015-08-30T14:22:37Z DeadTrickster: jason_m, let me try
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2015-08-30T14:25:14Z DeadTrickster: btw I already tested stream with this code (bt:make-thread (lambda ()
2015-08-30T14:25:14Z DeadTrickster:                   (print sb-sys:*stderr*)))
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2015-08-30T14:25:29Z DeadTrickster: object is the same but let me try nevertheless
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2015-08-30T14:28:34Z DeadTrickster: :( this rebinding stuff presumably doesn't work too
2015-08-30T14:33:18Z jason_m: as one last effort, try it with all three output streams? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm
2015-08-30T14:33:24Z jason_m: unless you know which one is being used
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2015-08-30T14:47:48Z DeadTrickster: jason_m, looks like I tracked down the main problem. libmysqlclient returs 2013 error when I press Ctrl-C
2015-08-30T14:48:18Z DeadTrickster: strangely I have to press Ctrl-C many times, it doesn't invoke standard sbcl interactive interrupt
2015-08-30T14:48:28Z DeadTrickster: but here is what I have in libmysql traces
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2015-08-30T14:48:29Z DeadTrickster:  viosocket.c:   180: | | <vio_read_buff 180
2015-08-30T14:48:29Z DeadTrickster:       client.c:   983: | | error: Wrong connection or packet. fd: TCP/IP (11)  len: 18446744073709551615
2015-08-30T14:48:30Z DeadTrickster:       client.c:  1514: | | >end_server
2015-08-30T14:48:47Z DeadTrickster: 18446744073709551615 is too big ^-)
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2015-08-30T14:52:42Z DeadTrickster: If you look here http://pastebin.com/4sBXL8XR I pressed Ctrl-C two times [it's printed as ^C] and second time I was lucky enough to trigger the error
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2015-08-30T14:57:57Z chrnybo: @fe[nl]ix: You've taken over FiveAM from Marco Baringer, would you happen to know the status of Arnesi?
2015-08-30T14:58:31Z nyef: DeadTrickster: Is it not handling incomplete reads / EINTR correctly or something?
2015-08-30T14:58:49Z jason_m: DeadTrickster: Hopefully that gives you something to go with... that low level output doesn't mean much to me.
2015-08-30T14:59:14Z DeadTrickster: nyef, do not know yet, I'm exploring source code right now, but thanks for the hint
2015-08-30T15:00:21Z DeadTrickster: jason_m, yea here I have two separate problems - mysql lost connections and lost output, I'll continue to play with standard streams anyway.
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2015-08-30T15:19:32Z DeadTrickster: nyef, this query also fails randomly when wrapped in without-interrupts
2015-08-30T15:20:01Z nyef: DeadTrickster: ... If you're using SBCL, without-interrupts doesn't behave the way that you think it behaves.
2015-08-30T15:21:16Z DeadTrickster: nyef, rtfm?
2015-08-30T15:21:40Z nyef: It's plausibly not in the manual.
2015-08-30T15:22:28Z DeadTrickster: also mysql manual says something about SIGPIPE handling
2015-08-30T15:22:39Z DeadTrickster: like 'If you install interrupt handlers for the SIGPIPE interrupt, socket handling should be thread-safe.'
2015-08-30T15:22:54Z DeadTrickster: how can I check I have SIGPIPE handler?
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2015-08-30T15:27:20Z DeadTrickster: also how come without-interrupts doesn't prevent gcing when GC if I'm correct uses SIGUSR1
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2015-08-30T15:38:12Z nyef: DeadTrickster: Again, without-interrupts doesn't do what you think it does.
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2015-08-30T15:39:00Z DeadTrickster: nyef, what it does then?
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2015-08-30T15:49:36Z nyef: Basically, the first interrupt gets delivered, interrupting whatever system call, the runtime says "we're not allowed to pass this on yet, let's defer it", blocks further interrupts, and picks up where it left off. At the end of without-interrupts, a check is made to see if there's anything pending, and then the handler gets run.
2015-08-30T15:49:58Z nyef: GC synchronization isn't blocked by without-interrupts, IIRC.
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2015-08-30T16:31:54Z Devon: Can quicklisp+ccl+slime show errors?  With luck a restart may mention which file but never exactly where.
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2015-08-30T16:42:05Z antonv: Devon: you can navigate to the error souce code
2015-08-30T16:42:09Z H4ns: press enter on the function in the stack trace that you want to see.  you will end up at the source location where the condition has been signaled
2015-08-30T16:42:22Z Devon: Not quite.  Perusing backtrace stack frames' local variables eventually turns up an input stream which, after drilling down far enough, hits the spot -- but annoyingly creates a new display frame.  Is there a command to quit the debugger and go directly to the spot?
2015-08-30T16:43:20Z H4ns: Devon: there is no command to quit the debugger and go to the source location, but you can add that if you really want the stack trace to be lost when you inspect the error location.
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2015-08-30T16:44:02Z Devon: I don't want to see any of the functions on the stack frame, they are all internal reader and compiler functions.
2015-08-30T16:44:25Z antonv: Devon: in other words these are two different commands: navigate to the source and quit debugger
2015-08-30T16:44:46Z Devon: Except "navigate to the source" is absent.
2015-08-30T16:44:49Z pjb: Devon: if you have errors in your macros or read-time code, then it's normal that you break into the debugger: you SHOULD debug those errors of yours!
2015-08-30T16:44:58Z H4ns: Devon: it is not.  press enter on the frame
2015-08-30T16:45:21Z pjb: Devon: but if you don't have such errors, then slime will compile with C-c M-k the current source and show the errors as annotations to which you can navigate with M-n and M-p.
2015-08-30T16:45:44Z Devon: That fails to show where the compiler or loader hit the error in my code.
2015-08-30T16:45:54Z Devon: I'm not trying to debug CCL.
2015-08-30T16:46:09Z H4ns: Devon: you need to locate the stack frame that you are interested in.
2015-08-30T16:46:19Z Devon: No such stack frame.
2015-08-30T16:46:32Z pjb: Devon: and indeed, there's no integration of quicklisp into slime.
2015-08-30T16:46:40Z Devon: I want to know where the compiler stopped reading my source file.
2015-08-30T16:46:58Z H4ns: Devon: ah, that is a different thing then.
2015-08-30T16:47:11Z Devon: Sorry if I was unclear.
2015-08-30T16:47:32Z H4ns: Devon: and in fact there is no simple way to get you that information, i fear :/
2015-08-30T16:47:37Z pjb: Also, it's quite difficult to identify a source line/column in this case, because of macros.
2015-08-30T16:48:17Z pjb: (defmacro m (o) `(,o 1 0))  (m /)  is the source the / or the 0?
2015-08-30T16:48:23Z Devon: If I can see the spot that caused my macro bug to manifest, that would be good.
2015-08-30T16:48:33Z pjb: (assuming the compiler detects the division by zero at compilation time).
2015-08-30T16:49:31Z pjb: And it's bad because ccl doesn't even report the stream in the compilation-time error.
2015-08-30T16:50:30Z Devon: So the annoying solution I initially mentioned is the best we can do with the tools we have.  If it happens a lot, maybe I'll make a more convenient fix.
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2015-08-30T16:51:40Z pjb: The problem could be solved, but would require a multiple approach: you'd have to patch ccl to provide better conditions and restarts (to hide the unrelevant backtraces and give more specific conditions), and you'd have to provide a way for slime to handle the error reported by quicklisp and asdf.
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2015-08-30T16:53:08Z antonv: Devon: you can simply use binary search: compile the first half of the file - if the error happens, then it in the first half; otherwise in the second half
2015-08-30T16:53:40Z antonv: Then sptlit this problematic half again, and repeat. In less then a minute you will find the spot
2015-08-30T16:53:58Z Devon: Yeah, I started to write an emacs macro to do that for me but it was taking too long to write so I punted.
2015-08-30T16:54:23Z pjb: for example, in fcomp-read-loop you have the stream,
2015-08-30T16:54:23Z pjb: stream = #<basic-file-character-input-stream ("/Users/pjb/works/ops/sources/icc/icc.lisp"/36 utf-8) #x30200266ADCD>
2015-08-30T16:54:23Z pjb:  
2015-08-30T16:54:26Z antonv: emacs macro is over-engineering :) solve it manually in few seconds
2015-08-30T16:54:44Z pjb: but as you can see, no position or line displayed.
2015-08-30T16:54:59Z pjb: Sometimes, I do a couple of (read-line) on that stream to see where it is.
2015-08-30T16:55:12Z Devon: I find I can click on the stream and a window pops up with a control to go to the spot.
2015-08-30T16:55:19Z Devon: That'll have to do for now.
2015-08-30T16:55:52Z pjb: Ah, indeed, that's nice.
2015-08-30T16:56:04Z antonv: Oh, good to know!
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2015-08-30T16:56:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to make sbcl run a function when it exits?
2015-08-30T16:56:51Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-30T16:57:09Z pjb: There are ways for ccl, and IIRC, there's also ways for sbcl.
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2015-08-30T16:57:24Z antonv: pjb: are you aware that com.informatimago.languages.cpp started to fail on CMUCL since quicklisp 2015-08-04?
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2015-08-30T16:57:56Z pjb: antonv: wasn't it corrected?  I'll have a look.
2015-08-30T16:58:19Z antonv: pjb: I don't know about corrected, I only know results for quicklisp 2015-08-04
2015-08-30T16:58:35Z pjb: But there won't be an new version of informatimago this month. (I have a lot of changes in languages and rdp, so I'll wait next month that it stabilizes a little.
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2015-08-30T16:59:06Z pjb: Do you want to use cpp on cmucl?
2015-08-30T16:59:19Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Initialization-and-Exit-Hooks
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2015-08-30T16:59:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: pgb: thanks
2015-08-30T16:59:44Z antonv: pjb: no, I am just reporting the change
2015-08-30T16:59:53Z pjb: ok.
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2015-08-30T17:19:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: What library should I use for parsing RSS/Atom?
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2015-08-30T17:27:51Z jason_m: Shinmera's Plump was recently plugged as parser in http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/#file-formats
2015-08-30T17:27:52Z jason_m: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump
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2015-08-30T17:28:09Z jason_m: I haven't used it, so outside of knowing it exists, I'm not much help.
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2015-08-30T17:38:25Z _death: here's some old flexml "test".. I updated it a bit so that I can run it successfully.. something like it could work ok if you didn't need to parse arbitrary feeds.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/154500
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2015-08-30T17:57:58Z veckon: Does anyone know how to write a lambda list for a method on the generic function `no-next-method` (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_nex.htm) such that it specializes correctly on a specific method?
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2015-08-30T18:04:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: jason_m, _death: thanks
2015-08-30T18:05:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm thinking of writing a Google Reader clone, so the arbitrary feeds thing is sort of important
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2015-08-30T18:15:46Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: Good luck!  I really liked google reader.  I'll have to keep an eye on your progress!
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2015-08-30T18:24:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, I start a bunch of these projects but they generally taper off somewhere half way through
2015-08-30T18:25:28Z shka: hi
2015-08-30T18:25:50Z shka: any idea how to convince interate to create driver with odd number of required arguments
2015-08-30T18:26:08Z shka: defmacro-driver gives me "required part of template is of odd length" error
2015-08-30T18:26:24Z shka: and documentation does not mention any other way of dealing with this problem
2015-08-30T18:28:33Z axion: Shinmera: are you around?
2015-08-30T18:28:46Z Shinmera: Maybe
2015-08-30T18:29:03Z jackdaniel: shka: I've told you yesterday, that you have to enclose them in parens
2015-08-30T18:29:14Z jackdaniel: FOR (key value) INDEX index
2015-08-30T18:29:19Z shka: jackdaniel: but it is ugly!
2015-08-30T18:29:29Z shka: well, key-value is not
2015-08-30T18:29:39Z shka: but also tree and key?
2015-08-30T18:29:39Z axion: Shinmera: I'm trying to figure out why trivial-benchmark is taking an extremely long time to do 1m calls, compared to my time/loop equivalent that finishes instantly
2015-08-30T18:29:41Z jackdaniel: it isn't – FOR key value INDEX is ugly
2015-08-30T18:30:21Z Shinmera: axion: It saves all the timing data from each call, so that'll be a lot of consing going on.
2015-08-30T18:31:28Z axion: Shinmera: but it includes that consing in the output, whereas time does not show anything consed
2015-08-30T18:31:34Z axion: seems misleading
2015-08-30T18:31:43Z Shinmera: axion: Hrm.
2015-08-30T18:31:49Z Shinmera: Right, that shouldn't happen.
2015-08-30T18:31:54Z axion: I'll paste
2015-08-30T18:31:57Z Shinmera: No need.
2015-08-30T18:32:04Z DeadTrickster: failed AVER: (< I 2) what does it mean?
2015-08-30T18:32:07Z Shinmera: I'll take a look at it later, right now I'm busy.
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2015-08-30T18:32:40Z Shinmera: axion: However, if it does count the consing of itself in the output, that's quite bad and I'll fix it as soon as I can.
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2015-08-30T18:32:49Z axion: Shinmera: what i see http://paste.lisp.org/display/154503
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2015-08-30T18:35:07Z Shinmera: axion: Yeah. The order in which the timing units are performed is probably suboptimal, causing some of the data retention to be captured.
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2015-08-30T18:35:51Z axion: I see, okay.
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2015-08-30T18:59:22Z shka: ok, so once again
2015-08-30T18:59:55Z shka: how can i use defmacro-driver to create driver that would descent in bst in search of the key?
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2015-08-30T19:00:14Z shka: the problem here is that i need to pass not only tree, but also key that i'm looking for
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2015-08-30T19:00:33Z shka: so i would want to write something like this:
2015-08-30T19:00:58Z shka: (iterate (for leaf in-bst in tree key))
2015-08-30T19:01:31Z shka: however, iterate does not allow me to write lambda list with odd number of elements
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2015-08-30T19:01:43Z shka: i'm kinda lost here, manual is not helpful
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2015-08-30T19:01:59Z shka: if anybody could tell if that's actually possible
2015-08-30T19:02:13Z shka: please :/
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2015-08-30T19:06:16Z Xof: DeadTrickster: you've hit an annoying bug in sbcl's handling of redefinitions of something, probably including some interaction with threads
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2015-08-30T20:09:04Z OrbitalGuy: Dear lispers! I want to use Lisp in a commercial web project. I like Lisp but I looking for *stable* Lisp implementation which can serve thousand clients in 24/7 mode. What implementation can you recommend?
2015-08-30T20:09:51Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: SBCL and CCL are rather stable
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2015-08-30T20:10:18Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: or, if you want to spend some money, lispworks and allegro cl are stable and commercially supported.
2015-08-30T20:10:58Z OrbitalGuy: H4ns: I read many cool stories about LispWorks.
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2015-08-30T20:11:20Z OrbitalGuy: H4ns: I bother about crashes.
2015-08-30T20:11:54Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: the most likely crashes are those caused by bugs in your own software.
2015-08-30T20:12:12Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: all of these implementations are very well tested and used a lot.
2015-08-30T20:12:52Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: although "a lot" is certainly not "a lot" when you're thinking of, say, java, c++, ruby or php.
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2015-08-30T20:14:47Z OrbitalGuy: H4ns: can you recommend implementation to run Huchentoot in multithreaded mode in conjunction with Postmodern?
2015-08-30T20:15:20Z AeroNotix: OrbitalGuy: what exactly do you mean there?
2015-08-30T20:15:24Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: i did that already, ccl, sbcl, allegro cl or lispworks will all fill the bil..
2015-08-30T20:15:37Z AeroNotix: Oh Lisp implementation..
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2015-08-30T20:16:20Z OrbitalGuy: H4ns: i think to start with free implementation. so CCL or SBCL. But how about CMUCL?
2015-08-30T20:16:30Z H4ns: OrbitalGuy: no threads on cmucl
2015-08-30T20:16:41Z AeroNotix: OrbitalGuy: "just" choose SBCL and then eventually you'll figure out if you need a different implementation
2015-08-30T20:16:52Z AeroNotix: There's no reason to get hung up on implementation at the beginning of a project
2015-08-30T20:17:52Z OrbitalGuy: AeroNotix: I bother about stability, because I found a discussion about SBCL crashes here https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2xlh6k/sbcl_in_production_pros_and_cons/
2015-08-30T20:18:55Z OrbitalGuy: AeroNotix: the discussion points that some people moved to CCL
2015-08-30T20:19:01Z AeroNotix: OrbitalGuy: the only poster in there didn't have a clue what caused it and didn't debug beyond moving to a different implementation
2015-08-30T20:20:27Z AeroNotix: my point isn't implementation-a vs implementation-b, more that writing portable code with CL is a path well tread
2015-08-30T20:20:46Z AeroNotix: and getting hung up on which implementation to choose, right now is a very big waste of time
2015-08-30T20:20:49Z AeroNotix: pick one and move on
2015-08-30T20:21:04Z AeroNotix: if you have a project that's paying the bills, I mean
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2015-08-30T20:23:11Z DeadTrickster: Xof, i'm using hunchentoot and error shown for first 2-3 requests something like "failed to create request object... that aver stuff'
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2015-08-30T20:24:59Z AeroNotix: though testing on multiple implementations is always a good idea
2015-08-30T20:26:23Z OrbitalGuy: AeroNotix: I see. To be honest, I must choose right now what Lisp to use -- Racket or Common Lisp. The later seems to me more elegant and simple. The only doubt is quality of platform (implementation).
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2015-08-30T20:27:11Z DeadTrickster: OrbitalGuy, we are using sbcl. it works ok most of the time
2015-08-30T20:27:26Z AeroNotix: I'd be more bothered about choosing between Racket or Common Lisp, rather than something like choosing an implementation
2015-08-30T20:27:59Z AeroNotix: as in, that's where I'd be spending my time.
2015-08-30T20:28:00Z DeadTrickster: however be prepared to get familiar with every single line of the code in libraries you are planing to use if you choose CL
2015-08-30T20:28:26Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: Which language is that not applicable?
2015-08-30T20:28:35Z DeadTrickster: you'll never know if someone broke something with next QL update
2015-08-30T20:28:51Z DeadTrickster: or maybe the lib you use just removed
2015-08-30T20:28:53Z AeroNotix: Professionally I've had to do that with every language I work with, Erlang, Clojure, Python, Java, etc etc etc
2015-08-30T20:29:07Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, cool
2015-08-30T20:29:28Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: if you're doing something which is paying the bills, wouldn't you pin to a specific QL tree?
2015-08-30T20:29:35Z AeroNotix: and take time in upgrading to the next?
2015-08-30T20:29:41Z AeroNotix: instead of willy-nilly upgrading things?
2015-08-30T20:30:15Z DeadTrickster: Yes I update the world each month carefully but I prefer not to do it and spend more time with my legos )
2015-08-30T20:30:34Z DeadTrickster: and we have a lot of stuff in local-projects
2015-08-30T20:30:47Z AeroNotix: What I like about QL compared to many other packaging systems is that you can actually pin to the entire universe, which is very useful
2015-08-30T20:31:14Z DeadTrickster: you can lock versions almost everywhere isn't it?
2015-08-30T20:31:28Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: most systems do it per-package, not per-everything
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2015-08-30T20:31:45Z DeadTrickster: but I have fear of updates only while using ruby gems and QL
2015-08-30T20:32:00Z DeadTrickster: npm and all that hipster stuff is shit too
2015-08-30T20:32:02Z OrbitalGuy: DeadTrickster: I've using the C++ web framework Wt which has many bugs. So, I've spent much time to debug the code and it was painful. So, I want to nhose something stable to focus on my problems rather than on library I use
2015-08-30T20:32:59Z DeadTrickster: OrbitalGuy, you can definitely save time on debugging here but only if it's not implementation bug
2015-08-30T20:33:31Z DeadTrickster: as for usefulness and stability we have a lot of good bad and ugly stuff here
2015-08-30T20:33:40Z DeadTrickster: as everywhere, just less buss and noise
2015-08-30T20:33:43Z DeadTrickster: buzz
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2015-08-30T20:34:21Z DeadTrickster: OrbitalGuy, also take a look at lfe
2015-08-30T20:34:28Z OrbitalGuy: DeadTrickster: lfe?
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2015-08-30T20:34:35Z DeadTrickster: Lisp2  empowered with OTP runtime
2015-08-30T20:35:10Z jebes: i got a job offer using clojure
2015-08-30T20:35:15Z DeadTrickster: it is entirely different ecosystem though
2015-08-30T20:35:17Z AeroNotix: jebes: congrats
2015-08-30T20:35:23Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: also Erlang is a bit of a ghetto
2015-08-30T20:35:23Z jebes: i haven't programmed clojure in a long time...
2015-08-30T20:35:44Z AeroNotix: LFE isn't really a tool in widespread use for the Erlang community
2015-08-30T20:35:47Z AeroNotix: it's very very niche
2015-08-30T20:35:50Z DeadTrickster: AeroNotix, but I love the community - very vibrant
2015-08-30T20:36:01Z jebes: this crap feels like a perl guy skimmed a lisp book and thought he could fix java
2015-08-30T20:36:07Z DeadTrickster: and elixir looks cool
2015-08-30T20:36:09Z AeroNotix: DeadTrickster: Also people that chronically self-congratulate
2015-08-30T20:37:08Z dim: is someone proficient with CFFI stuff and .so files around to help me figure out the bug report at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226#issuecomment-136175984 ?
2015-08-30T20:37:31Z dim: 7: (WARN SB-KERNEL:UNDEFINED-ALIEN-STYLE-WARNING :SYMBOL "SSL_get_version")
2015-08-30T20:37:31Z dim: 8: (SB-SYS:ENSURE-DYNAMIC-FOREIGN-SYMBOL-ADDRESS "SSL_get_version" NIL)
2015-08-30T20:37:31Z dim: 15: (LOAD-SHARED-OBJECT "libsybdb.so" :DONT-SAVE NIL)
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2015-08-30T20:37:41Z dim: that is the trace parts that look interesting to me
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2015-08-30T20:38:03Z dim: it looks like to load libsybdb.so the ssl lib is needed to, but it's not loaded
2015-08-30T20:38:07Z DeadTrickster: well looks like openssl stuff?
2015-08-30T20:38:19Z DeadTrickster: try to load it first maybe
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2015-08-30T20:38:43Z dim: well it's oportunistically loaded as needed
2015-08-30T20:38:51Z dim: depend on the arguments given to the image at startup
2015-08-30T20:39:07Z DeadTrickster: also you give ldd output
2015-08-30T20:39:10Z DeadTrickster: ldd of what?
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2015-08-30T20:39:42Z OrbitalGuy: DeadTrickster: thanks, but I have no time to learn new language/platform...
2015-08-30T20:40:02Z dim: there's a (cffi:load-foreign-library 'cl+ssl::libssl) called in the sb-ext:*init-hooks* too, so SSL should have been loaded already
2015-08-30T20:40:33Z DeadTrickster: looks like it isn't :-)
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2015-08-30T20:41:42Z OrbitalGuy: DeadTruckster: what average uptime of your SBCL instance?
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2015-08-30T20:43:50Z DeadTrickster: OrbitalGuy, I have one running for 2 1/2 years and others for 2-3 months
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2015-08-30T20:44:07Z DeadTrickster: I'm trying to master nginx-style updates
2015-08-30T20:44:22Z Trioxin: is LispWorks the only way to code for android/ios with lisp?
2015-08-30T20:44:24Z DeadTrickster: when you can restart service and transfer all connections to updated version
2015-08-30T20:45:10Z OrbitalGuy: DeadTrickster: I see.
2015-08-30T20:46:09Z DeadTrickster: but most times you can just throw stuff at repl
2015-08-30T20:46:16Z Trioxin: well, I see mocl. Perhaps a better question is, is LispWorks worth the price tag?
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2015-08-30T20:47:45Z DeadTrickster: dim, also what system do you use? maybe openssl files named not as cl+ssl expects?
2015-08-30T20:47:46Z OrbitalGuy: I've looked at SBCL documentation and it says that calling Lisp code from C is hackish, but CCL documentation says, that FFI works good in both direction. Comments?
2015-08-30T20:48:54Z AeroNotix: OrbitalGuy: will you be calling C code?
2015-08-30T20:49:02Z lpaste_: fiddlerwoaroof pasted “Odd cl-who behavior” at http://lpaste.net/139906
2015-08-30T20:49:06Z OrbitalGuy: And, btw, how callbacks from C works with CFFI on SBCL if "calling Lisp from C is hackish"?
2015-08-30T20:49:16Z DeadTrickster: I managed to run Mono in SBCL with callbacks and stuff, it is not so stable because of interrupts and stuff but I never had any problems
2015-08-30T20:49:19Z OrbitalGuy: AeroNotix: how about callbacks?
2015-08-30T20:49:20Z scymtym: OrbitalGuy: i think these issues have been resolved, do you have a link for that part of the documentation?
2015-08-30T20:49:24Z DeadTrickster: with just callbacks
2015-08-30T20:49:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I doing something wrong? I expected the value of 'a to be interpolated into the title tag
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2015-08-30T20:51:11Z mprelude: Anyone here used chirp library?
2015-08-30T20:51:14Z OrbitalGuy: scymtym: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Calling-Lisp-From-C
2015-08-30T20:51:30Z Shinmera: mprelude: What's the problem?
2015-08-30T20:51:30Z OrbitalGuy: scymtym: "Calling Lisp functions from C is sometimes possible, but is extremely hackish and poorly supported as of SBCL 0.7.5."
2015-08-30T20:52:16Z mprelude: Shinmera: Was trying to work out if it's the best lib for me to use. ;)
2015-08-30T20:52:38Z scymtym: OrbitalGuy: thanks for the link. i'm asking because people often find outdated versions of the sbcl manual.
2015-08-30T20:52:44Z Shinmera: mprelude: There's no other twitter library, really. So unless you want to write your own...
2015-08-30T20:52:47Z mprelude: Shinmera: I'm trying to open multiple filtered streams, each for a different search term, in parallel.
2015-08-30T20:53:13Z Shinmera: mprelude: Interesting use case.
2015-08-30T20:53:50Z OrbitalGuy: scymtym: so CFFI using some hackish way for callbacks from C :)
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2015-08-30T20:53:54Z mprelude: Shinmera: Doing data analysis. Each search term or set of search terms represents one of the datasets I need locally.
2015-08-30T20:54:11Z jason_m: OrbitalGuy: scymtym: Perhaps the situation hasn't changed, but that mentions SBCL 0.7.5, while latest is 1.2.X
2015-08-30T20:54:47Z Shinmera: mprelude: Sounds really cool. Chirp should implement filtered streams, but I haven't tested them too extensively, let alone in parallel, so getting some feedback on that would be great.
2015-08-30T20:55:04Z Shinmera: mprelude: If you run into problems, let me know on here or open a ticket on github, I'll gladly see what I can do.
2015-08-30T20:55:35Z mprelude: Shinmera: I'm not an expert on running threads or parallel processes, especially in CL, so it could be a good learning experience. :)
2015-08-30T20:55:47Z scymtym: OrbitalGuy: one problem that i know of were callbacks invoked from threads created by foreign code. that scenario used to be only supported with specific build options for some time but has been fixed now.
2015-08-30T20:55:56Z Shinmera: mprelude: For threads have a look at bordeaux-threads.
2015-08-30T20:56:33Z mprelude: Thanks Shinmera
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2015-08-30T20:59:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a recommended way to generate HTML?
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2015-08-30T21:00:34Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: cl-who might do: http://weitz.de/cl-who/
2015-08-30T21:01:04Z axion: fiddlerwoaroof: there are MANY libraries for such. you would have to ask yourself if you'd want to use a templating system or write sexp's
2015-08-30T21:01:13Z AeroNotix: Wow that clasp guy really did it
2015-08-30T21:01:17Z AeroNotix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g
2015-08-30T21:01:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've tried cl-who, but something doesn't seem to work
2015-08-30T21:01:25Z AeroNotix: just watched this, I remember this guy talking about it yonks ago
2015-08-30T21:01:34Z AeroNotix: still at the implementation stage
2015-08-30T21:01:36Z AeroNotix: amazing
2015-08-30T21:01:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://lpaste.net/139906
2015-08-30T21:01:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I like the "write everything in s-expressions" route
2015-08-30T21:02:06Z axion: fiddlerwoaroof: check out sexml
2015-08-30T21:02:19Z axion: https://github.com/madnificent/SEXML
2015-08-30T21:02:57Z axion: i've used it for all my projects for the past few years, so i can say it does the job pretty well
2015-08-30T21:03:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: That looks cool
2015-08-30T21:03:45Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know if cl-who actually validates it, but src isn't an attribute for a title element?  What are you trying to do?
2015-08-30T21:04:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is, it wasn't putting the value of the variable a into the title element
2015-08-30T21:04:49Z lpaste_: fiddlerwoaroof revised “Odd cl-who behavior”: “No title” at http://lpaste.net/139906
2015-08-30T21:05:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just updated it, because I copied the wrong thing
2015-08-30T21:05:35Z Trioxin: Dammit I want LispWorks but it's too expensive
2015-08-30T21:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: axion: is there something that does the opposite: take a DTD and generates a parser?
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2015-08-30T21:06:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would save me a bunch of time parsing RSS and other xml formats
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2015-08-30T21:07:03Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: That clasp guy is drmeister and he's here you know.
2015-08-30T21:07:30Z Trioxin: normally i would "borrow" it until I can pay for it but it exists nowhere
2015-08-30T21:07:37Z axion: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe plump
2015-08-30T21:07:58Z Shinmera: Plump doesn't do parser generation.
2015-08-30T21:08:03Z Shinmera: CXML can do DTD stuff.
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2015-08-30T21:08:28Z Shinmera: Plump does the opposite: Take whatever it can get and try to read it as XML somehow.
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2015-08-30T21:09:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I'm trying to do is take more or less well-formed xml and put the content I'm interested in into a rss-feed object
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2015-08-30T21:10:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Currently, I'm using plump and manual DOM traversal to find the elements I want, but it would be nice for the process to be more automatic.
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2015-08-30T21:10:33Z Shinmera: If you want neat processing of the Plump DOM, try lQuery.
2015-08-30T21:10:53Z Shinmera: Also, I can't vouch for this library as I never looked it beyond the readme, but someone might have already done your work for you: https://github.com/kisom/cl-feedparse
2015-08-30T21:11:33Z katco: for CL, what's a generally accepted stdlib for parsing command-line flags?
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2015-08-30T21:12:45Z Shinmera: katco: I don't know about generally accepted, but CLON seems good. https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php
2015-08-30T21:13:37Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: My understanding with cl-who is that you need to pass it the string, not a variable bound to the string.  You can pull this off by wrapping what you're doing in a macro.
2015-08-30T21:13:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: lQuery looks useful, thanks
2015-08-30T21:13:54Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Thank me once it actually proves useful!
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2015-08-30T21:14:24Z katco: Shinmera: yeah i'm looking at http://www.cliki.net/command-line%20options%20parser , but as always want to use what the community is behind :)
2015-08-30T21:15:35Z Shinmera: katco: Generally, finding out what's generally accepted is going to be very hard or impossible.
2015-08-30T21:15:55Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: well on second thought, you should be able to (format ...) it in there too, now I'm curious
2015-08-30T21:15:58Z Shinmera: Mostly because Lisp is too dissolved of a community to have a generally.
2015-08-30T21:15:58Z katco: Shinmera: was just reading this this morning: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015/?imm_mid=0d795f&cmp=em-prog-na-na-newsltr_20150829
2015-08-30T21:16:23Z Shinmera: katco: That article is more of a "things I think are good" than anything else really.
2015-08-30T21:16:28Z Shinmera: The title actually really ticks me off.
2015-08-30T21:16:33Z katco: haha
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2015-08-30T21:18:03Z katco: Shinmera: well, i don't think it's impossible... there are certain areas that there has been standardization around
2015-08-30T21:18:29Z katco: e.g. asdf, quicklisp, log4cl, bordeaux-threads, etc.
2015-08-30T21:18:44Z Shinmera: Sure. I'm just saying. In this place, consensus is hard to come by and even if there was one, the best choice is one you make by careful consideration of the problem area and the possible solutions.
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2015-08-30T21:19:19Z katco: if i were working on a serious project, i'd surely do that. but just tinkering with CL, i just want to get going, ya know?
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2015-08-30T21:19:32Z Shinmera: Then why don't you just pick a random one out of any of them?
2015-08-30T21:19:39Z Shinmera: Why does the consensus matter at all if it doesn't matter?
2015-08-30T21:19:42Z katco: what's the harm in asking what the standard is?
2015-08-30T21:19:54Z Shinmera: I'm just saying there is none.
2015-08-30T21:20:07Z katco: ...in this instance
2015-08-30T21:20:14Z Shinmera: In most instances.
2015-08-30T21:20:20Z jason_m: I like the idea of rallying behind some "standard" libraries/projects.
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2015-08-30T21:21:55Z katco: Shinmera: thanks for your suggestion
2015-08-30T21:21:58Z jason_m: Of course folks can still write their own for fun or profit, but identifying a couple of the most active projects should help people first coming to lisp.
2015-08-30T21:22:13Z Shinmera: katco: Either way, don't take my word for anything either. I'm the guy who writes a new wheel for everything because he likes none of the existent choices. :shrug:
2015-08-30T21:22:13Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾
2015-08-30T21:22:31Z katco: jason_m: i agree with that line of reasoning
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2015-08-30T21:22:43Z Shinmera: jason_m: Right, but then it should be presented as such.
2015-08-30T21:22:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: is there a shortcut for getting the first result of an lQuery query?
2015-08-30T21:22:55Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: (node)
2015-08-30T21:23:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2015-08-30T21:26:00Z lpaste_: jason_m annotated “Odd cl-who behavior” with “Odd cl-who behavior (annotation)” at http://lpaste.net/139906#a139910
2015-08-30T21:26:04Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to retain the vector, (first) will do.
2015-08-30T21:26:20Z Shinmera: At least I think I remember that being the case. Been a while since I wrote lQuery, heh.
2015-08-30T21:26:26Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: I pasted an update, you print a to the string you are working on
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2015-08-30T21:28:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: jason_m: thanks.
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2015-08-30T21:39:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, with lass, parenscript and lquery, I never have to write anything besides LISP :)
2015-08-30T21:41:20Z jason_m: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm undecided whether that's a good approach or not, but we can certainly agree it is something that is much harder in other languages!
2015-08-30T21:42:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: jason_m: I do find it makes debugging more tricky
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2015-08-30T21:42:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I like being able to use macros to make things like AngularJS less troublesome
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2015-08-30T21:43:33Z jason_m: And here the Angular devs thought they were already making your life less troublesome!
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2015-08-30T21:46:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: The big problem with angular is the initial page load
2015-08-30T21:47:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Either you have some kind of delay, or you reimplement the template logic
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2015-08-30T21:51:50Z Shinmera: Having more validation in LASS is something I want to add some time actually.
2015-08-30T21:52:02Z Shinmera: So that you get syntax checking in your stylesheets for free.
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2015-08-30T21:54:59Z mprelude: Hmm, I should check out LASS.
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2015-08-30T22:07:07Z aeth: Is there a portable library that's recommended to use for abstracting over the differences between internal times?
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2015-08-30T22:13:33Z aeth: I guess (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second) normalizes it? i.e. unit / (unit / second) = unit * (second/unit) = second.
2015-08-30T22:14:03Z aeth: And then it can be converted with e.g. (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second 1.0) or 1f0 or whatever
2015-08-30T22:14:52Z Bike: yes
2015-08-30T22:15:06Z aeth: (There's also (coerce foo 'float) of course)
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2015-08-30T22:49:56Z Trioxin: It's impossible to decide what lisp to use
2015-08-30T22:50:20Z Bike: just pick one that's easy to install then
2015-08-30T22:53:53Z Trioxin: clojure seems nice but the jvm? meh
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2015-08-30T22:54:45Z sixyod: I started with clisp
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2015-08-30T22:55:02Z sixyod: start with one you think you would like the most, shortly i would assume you will figure out
2015-08-30T22:55:02Z ARM9: having gone down the clojure path I'd recommend racket or sbcl for starting out
2015-08-30T22:55:04Z sixyod: what you want to learn
2015-08-30T22:55:09Z Trioxin: ive never learned a functional language and I want to for ML purposes
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2015-08-30T22:59:18Z Zhivago: Well, Lisps are almost always procedural languages.
2015-08-30T22:59:35Z Zhivago: They just have good support for a functional programming style.
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2015-08-30T23:05:23Z Trioxin: the macros sound fun
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2015-08-30T23:09:33Z Trioxin: I was hoping to be able to do cross platform including mobile in a lisp but apparently that's far from free
2015-08-30T23:10:32Z Trioxin: (LispWorks)
2015-08-30T23:19:27Z mprelude: Sorry to just dump on you guys, trying to use ASDF to setup a system, but the output error isn't particularly helpful... http://paste2.org/Ledav138
2015-08-30T23:19:30Z mprelude: Any ideas?
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2015-08-30T23:19:56Z Bike: i think --script skips system-wide initialization, which is where asdf comes from
2015-08-30T23:20:04Z mprelude: Bike: Ah...
2015-08-30T23:20:10Z mprelude: That would make sense
2015-08-30T23:20:21Z mprelude: How would you typically do an asdf load for testing in repl?
2015-08-30T23:20:46Z Bike: repl's usually been system initialized
2015-08-30T23:20:51Z Bike: i think you just need to (require :asdf), though
2015-08-30T23:22:35Z mprelude: Thanks Bike, works when I initialize sbcl and do (asdf:load-system :aurum)
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2015-08-31T01:36:46Z jfe: hi all. i know this question is sbcl-specific but i’m hoping someone here might be able to help… i’m calling sb-thread:make-thread with a function that prints to stdout but nothing is being printed. anyone know why that might be?
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2015-08-31T01:37:35Z LiamH: spec: force-output
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2015-08-31T01:40:16Z jfe: LiamH: thanks
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2015-08-31T04:01:26Z axion: how can i SETF an accessor function when the accessor name is not known, but computed from a variable? I am trying to do something like this, which obviously won't work: (setf (funcall var object) value)
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2015-08-31T04:15:50Z rtoym: axion: Define a setf expansion for it?
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2015-08-31T04:16:54Z resttime: axion: use slow-value to get the slot?
2015-08-31T04:16:58Z resttime: *slot-value
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2015-08-31T04:23:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-08-31T04:25:00Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-08-31T04:26:23Z pillton: axion: What do you mean when you say "accessor function"?
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2015-08-31T04:35:25Z Bike: axion: if the writer is actually a setf function, (funcall `(setf ,var) value object). but maybe you want (setf slot-value)?
2015-08-31T04:36:45Z pillton: Or even (let ((var (cond .... (t #'(setf name))))) (funcall var value object)).
2015-08-31T04:37:46Z beach: Bike: Hmm, I was going to suggest that, but it doesn't work in SBCL.  Now I need to read the Common Lisp HyperSpec to see whether it should.
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2015-08-31T04:38:35Z beach: It might be necessary to do (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,var)) value object)
2015-08-31T04:38:44Z Bike: oh. yeah, probably.
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2015-08-31T04:39:32Z beach: pillton: The name is the value of var so that won't work.
2015-08-31T04:39:32Z Bike: a function designator "is one of: a symbol (denoting the function named by that symbol in the global environment), or a function (denoting itself)"
2015-08-31T04:39:36Z Bike: that is sort of unfortunate.
2015-08-31T04:39:49Z beach: I agree.
2015-08-31T04:40:53Z Bike: hm. tangential, but fdefinition has under exceptional conditions: "An error of type undefined-function is signaled in the non-setf case if function-name is not fbound."
2015-08-31T04:40:53Z beach: Note to self: make that syntax work in Common Lisp 3 (which is going to be called something else to avoid confusion with other projects).
2015-08-31T04:40:57Z Bike: which is... weird
2015-08-31T04:41:59Z beach: Bike: I think it's because only symbols can be fbound.
2015-08-31T04:42:10Z beach: ... and symbols can be fbound to macros as well.
2015-08-31T04:42:18Z pillton: beach: Whatever computes the name expects it to be a setf function so I'm not sure there is a difference between returning a symbol or the function object.
2015-08-31T04:42:20Z Bike: fboundp says it works on function names
2015-08-31T04:43:32Z beach: pillton: Maybe it's too early for me, but I can't make sense of what you are saying.
2015-08-31T04:44:57Z beach: pillton: I was just remarking on your using #'(setf name) in your example, whereas axion told us that the name is the value of VAR so you can't really use NAME here.
2015-08-31T04:45:06Z pillton: There is code somewhere in axion's program that knows that a setf function with the name `(setf ,name) exists.
2015-08-31T04:45:33Z beach: pillton: Yes.  It is the value of the variable VAR.
2015-08-31T04:46:06Z beach: I mean, the symbol part of the name of the function is the value of the variable VAR.
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2015-08-31T04:46:48Z pillton: Ok. I was just pointing out an alternative way of doing it.
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2015-08-31T04:51:43Z loke: I know the maintainer of bordeaux-threads hangs out here, but I can't remember who it i.s
2015-08-31T04:51:49Z loke: Anyone know?
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2015-08-31T07:35:25Z pjb: Trioxin: To get help choosing a CL implementation, connect to telnet://hubble.informatimago.com:8101 ; have a look at http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation
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2015-08-31T07:37:19Z loke: pjb: I have some issues with the selection criteria on that application.
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2015-08-31T07:38:02Z loke: Punched in that I wanted native threads and amd64 platform, and it suggested "XCL" (which I've never heard of) but claiming its web page is armedbear.org
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2015-08-31T07:40:49Z pjb: loke: edit the database, send in patches.
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2015-08-31T07:43:34Z jackdaniel: ecl has native threads ;p
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2015-08-31T08:00:52Z loke: jackdaniel: Which Lisp does not have it?
2015-08-31T08:01:15Z pjb: Last time I looked, cmucl had green threads.
2015-08-31T08:02:57Z jackdaniel: Punched in that I wanted native threads and amd64 platform – I might misunderstood this one (?)
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2015-08-31T08:13:41Z loke: pjb: Do you know who the maintiner of bordeaux-threads is? Was it H4ns?
2015-08-31T08:14:13Z jackdaniel: fenix
2015-08-31T08:14:27Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix °
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2015-08-31T08:20:37Z loke: Ah, thanks
2015-08-31T08:20:58Z loke: minion help
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2015-08-31T08:22:42Z loke: minion: memo for fe[nl]ix: The version of BT on QL is over a year old. Is this because the latest version hasn't been tagged in git? It would be nice to have the timed condition variable support in the official QL version.
2015-08-31T08:22:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-08-31T08:23:32Z p_l: 27
2015-08-31T08:23:41Z loke: 27?
2015-08-31T08:23:42Z jackdaniel: 27?
2015-08-31T08:23:43Z p_l: eh, missed a command there, sorry :)
2015-08-31T08:23:51Z jackdaniel: mystery solved!
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2015-08-31T09:54:25Z dim: upgrading ecl to 16.0.0 ;-)
2015-08-31T09:55:35Z jackdaniel: good luck ;-)
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2015-08-31T09:57:25Z dim: slime compiling swank bits in it...
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2015-08-31T10:00:04Z dim: the slime integration seems funky
2015-08-31T10:02:40Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2015-08-31T10:02:55Z dim: looks better the second time, maybe the swank compile first time isn't bullet proof yet, or something, I don't know
2015-08-31T10:03:33Z dim: I using the CL-USER> prompt on the *inferior-lisp* buffer then realized I had a normal REPL buffer too but there it was blocked after validating a form
2015-08-31T10:03:43Z jackdaniel: hm, swank compiles on a first run a bit, then it's cached
2015-08-31T10:04:07Z jackdaniel: ah, inferior-lisp prompt isn't for usage (it's not slime *yet*)
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2015-08-31T10:06:40Z dim: yeah
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2015-08-31T10:06:58Z dim: ;;; Style warning:
2015-08-31T10:06:58Z dim: ;;;   ! The variable CL-POSTGRES::*UNIX-SOCKET-DIR* is not used.
2015-08-31T10:07:07Z dim: ok it fails at this point
2015-08-31T10:07:30Z dim: says it's a warning but I get into the debugger with a slime/swank backtrace
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2015-08-31T10:07:44Z dim: Failed to connect to pgsql at :UNIX (port 54393) as user "dim": In form (PROGN (LOAD "/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp" :VERBOSE T) (FUNCALL (READ-FROM-STRING "swank-loader:init")) (FUNCALL (READ-FROM-STRING "swank:start-server") "/var/folders/w7/9n8v8pw54t1gngfff0lj16040000gn/T/slime.72230")) Wrong number of arguments passed to function #<compiled-function 000000010e6acb00>
2015-08-31T10:07:44Z dim: .
2015-08-31T10:07:44Z dim: [Condition of type PGLOADER.CONNECTION:DB-CONNECTION-ERROR]
2015-08-31T10:08:31Z jackdaniel: ecl succesfully started and jerked later, right?
2015-08-31T10:08:43Z dim: I started again, it's running fine
2015-08-31T10:09:28Z jackdaniel: uhm
2015-08-31T10:09:32Z dim: (in-package :pgloader) then (with-monitor () (parse-commands-from-file "/Users/dim/dev/pgloader/test/fixed.load")) works well
2015-08-31T10:10:05Z dim: I guess I have some funky non portable non conforming code in pgloader and failed to see it because it works well with sbcl (and maybe ccl)
2015-08-31T10:10:43Z jackdaniel: and about that swank compilation time (and generally about compilation time) – 80% of this is spent in gcc, solution would be to generate code which compiles faster with gcc or use faster c compiler
2015-08-31T10:11:03Z dim: I noticed that, not complaining ;-)
2015-08-31T10:11:34Z jackdaniel: what is beyond our reach now, but compilation is just for first run and you can deploy to "so" library without a problem
2015-08-31T10:11:59Z dim: is there something like (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) for ecl?
2015-08-31T10:12:14Z jackdaniel: I'm planning to write tutorial how to deploy lisp libraries as shared object files
2015-08-31T10:12:39Z jackdaniel: I don't know, didn't encounter such a thing
2015-08-31T10:12:43Z jackdaniel: just ordinary 'debug
2015-08-31T10:12:49Z dim: I'd like how to build a self-contained binary including both lisp image and system dependencies (openssl.so and such) better
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2015-08-31T10:13:54Z jackdaniel: you mean putting openssl.so *in* this binary?
2015-08-31T10:14:24Z dim: I would like to be able to do that for pgloader yes, at some point
2015-08-31T10:14:28Z dim: well not exactly
2015-08-31T10:14:49Z jackdaniel: it's possible with ECL, but it's unfeasible, since openssl might be build against other libraries, which differ on other systems
2015-08-31T10:15:04Z dim: I would like to be done with such bugreports: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226
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2015-08-31T10:15:51Z dim: so how to I recompile pgloader with debug to 3?
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2015-08-31T10:16:07Z dim: (declaim (optimize debug 3)) then ql:quickload again?
2015-08-31T10:16:58Z jackdaniel: yeah
2015-08-31T10:17:23Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/ch02.html here you have description what it gives you
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2015-08-31T10:18:31Z dim: Wrong number of arguments passed to function #<compiled-function 000000010e6acb00>.
2015-08-31T10:18:38Z dim: I guess debug 3 was not applied
2015-08-31T10:18:47Z dim: ;;; OPTIMIZE levels: Safety=1, Space=1, Speed=3, Debug=3
2015-08-31T10:18:57Z dim: I see this, but I mean, did it reach already compiled code?
2015-08-31T10:19:53Z jackdaniel: it might, there is a lot to do with ECL instrospection - note that compiled function is something, what already has gone to C and got compiled to native
2015-08-31T10:20:42Z jackdaniel: we have all the parts, even decent implementation of pde-hook, but someone has to put these parts together :)
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2015-08-31T10:21:14Z jackdaniel: but comiled function should appear in debugger backtrace
2015-08-31T10:21:20Z jackdaniel: s/comiled/compiled/
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2015-08-31T10:24:01Z dim: nope ;(
2015-08-31T10:24:02Z jackdaniel: but if you just did :load, sources didn't got recompiled
2015-08-31T10:24:07Z jackdaniel: #'load
2015-08-31T10:24:27Z jackdaniel: unless you did change sources, then it should notice
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2015-08-31T10:24:40Z dim: how to purge the cache then?
2015-08-31T10:24:51Z jackdaniel: in a worst case just delete ~/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-16.…/
2015-08-31T10:25:38Z jackdaniel: if you remove whole directory, then restart slime to recompile swank
2015-08-31T10:26:05Z dim: I just removed the pgloader directory
2015-08-31T10:26:09Z dim: recompiling
2015-08-31T10:26:17Z jackdaniel: o, ok
2015-08-31T10:26:37Z jackdaniel: I've got to go – good luck
2015-08-31T10:26:48Z dim: see ya, thanks!
2015-08-31T10:26:59Z dim: I'm just going to stop trying today I guess
2015-08-31T10:27:00Z jackdaniel: if you encounter a bug, please put it on gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues
2015-08-31T10:27:08Z dim: Wrong number of arguments passed to function #<compiled-function 000000010e6acb00>.
2015-08-31T10:27:19Z dim: same after recompile and with debug 3 still
2015-08-31T10:27:27Z mprelude: https://gist.github.com/mprelude/ebbff8b3276060b4f21e Does CLOS provide anything similar to a destructor? I want to destroy the messenger when the class is destroyed.
2015-08-31T10:27:41Z jackdaniel: and navigating with M-n and M-p over backtrace doesn't show a code?
2015-08-31T10:27:50Z dim: exact, jackdaniel
2015-08-31T10:28:10Z dim: mprelude: I think it's called finalizers
2015-08-31T10:28:25Z jackdaniel: hm, it might be ecl bug, but (ql:quickload :pgloader) ; worked for me
2015-08-31T10:28:52Z mprelude: dim: I thought finalizers was something to do with inheritance.
2015-08-31T10:28:54Z AeroNotix: mrSpec: http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage
2015-08-31T10:29:02Z AeroNotix: mrSpec: sorry wrong person
2015-08-31T10:29:06Z AeroNotix: mprelude: ^^
2015-08-31T10:29:07Z mrSpec: AeroNotix: np ;)
2015-08-31T10:29:10Z jackdaniel: mrSpec: you are the wrong person ;-)
2015-08-31T10:29:16Z AeroNotix: most definitely wrong
2015-08-31T10:29:18Z dim: mprelude: see https://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-garbage/
2015-08-31T10:29:24Z dim: late again
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2015-08-31T10:29:36Z mprelude: Thanks
2015-08-31T10:30:05Z mprelude: Another noob question, is there an issue with exporting hash tables from packages?
2015-08-31T10:30:43Z mprelude: I was trying to use a hash table to store config, and use a bunch of config files to write into the hash table, but it appears that whenever I do a value lookup on the (exported) table, I get NIL.
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2015-08-31T10:31:09Z jackdaniel: mprelude: if you put key in one package, on read it from another, then it's not the same key
2015-08-31T10:31:26Z mprelude: jackdaniel: So I'm better off using an alist?
2015-08-31T10:31:29Z jackdaniel: 'package:key and 'package-2:key
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2015-08-31T10:31:37Z AeroNotix: mprelude: what are your keys? Symbols?
2015-08-31T10:31:42Z jackdaniel: you may use keys from keyword package
2015-08-31T10:31:43Z mprelude: AeroNotix: Yes
2015-08-31T10:31:52Z AeroNotix: mprelude: you need to fully qualify symbols
2015-08-31T10:32:00Z jackdaniel: so (setf (gethash :my-key *ht*) …)
2015-08-31T10:32:09Z mprelude: AeroNotix: OK, that makes sense
2015-08-31T10:32:18Z AeroNotix: and export them
2015-08-31T10:32:25Z AeroNotix: from the other package
2015-08-31T10:32:29Z jackdaniel: if you use keywords, they are always in keyword package, so there won't be a problem :)
2015-08-31T10:32:37Z mprelude: AeroNotix: This is probably what I should have been doing, yes.
2015-08-31T10:32:55Z AeroNotix: mprelude: I prefer not to use symbols for this purpose
2015-08-31T10:32:57Z AeroNotix: but it's up to you
2015-08-31T10:33:07Z mprelude: AeroNotix: What would you do in this instance?
2015-08-31T10:33:12Z AeroNotix: mprelude: keywords
2015-08-31T10:33:22Z jackdaniel: keywords *are* symbols …
2015-08-31T10:33:33Z jackdaniel: in keyword package :)
2015-08-31T10:33:36Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: mindblown
2015-08-31T10:33:39Z AeroNotix: I didn't know that
2015-08-31T10:33:51Z AeroNotix: I'm gonna do a deep dive of CLtL2 soon
2015-08-31T10:34:04Z jackdaniel: heheh
2015-08-31T10:37:24Z mprelude: If I use uninterned symbols, will that work or not?
2015-08-31T10:37:31Z mprelude should just try it
2015-08-31T10:37:40Z dim: beware of gc bahavior with keywords, basically they are never collected IIRC
2015-08-31T10:37:44Z jackdaniel: mprelude: using keyword automatically interns it in keyword package
2015-08-31T10:37:55Z jackdaniel: and exports
2015-08-31T10:38:00Z AeroNotix: dim: like erlang
2015-08-31T10:38:07Z AeroNotix: sorry that was a question
2015-08-31T10:38:11Z AeroNotix: "like erlang?"
2015-08-31T10:38:16Z mprelude: jackdaniel: ty
2015-08-31T10:38:22Z AeroNotix: Like atoms in Erlang
2015-08-31T10:38:24Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-08-31T10:38:32Z jackdaniel is afk, for real now ;-)
2015-08-31T10:38:45Z AeroNotix: i.e. you shouldn't dynamically create them, since there's a global atom table which gets filled up with ~2M with default settings
2015-08-31T10:39:06Z AeroNotix: Is there a portable explanation to "keywords aren't gc'd"?
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2015-08-31T10:39:20Z AeroNotix: i.e. some set of behaviour I should expect?
2015-08-31T10:39:32Z jackdaniel: if you intern and export symbol, it's "alive" all the time, unless you unintern it
2015-08-31T10:39:54Z AeroNotix: ok
2015-08-31T10:39:58Z jackdaniel: using keyword automatically does both (intern and export)
2015-08-31T10:40:44Z resttime: A few hours ago I couldn't stay asleep so I decided to look at closures
2015-08-31T10:41:01Z resttime: Then a few moments ago I realized that the nature of CLOS lies with closures
2015-08-31T10:41:19Z resttime: wow
2015-08-31T10:42:03Z resttime: This feeling, beautiful
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2015-08-31T10:43:49Z dim: my view/understanding is that a closure is about some internal state, and clos makes state handling explicit
2015-08-31T10:45:48Z resttime: neat, that seems consistent with what I'm thinking
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2015-08-31T10:47:20Z resttime: Like my understanding now of object orientied programming (at least what I believe it to be)
2015-08-31T10:48:49Z resttime: Is the spice of type recognition over a let that closes over variables and lambdas
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2015-08-31T10:49:07Z haom: hello
2015-08-31T10:49:19Z resttime: err the amalgamation of such parts that is
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2015-08-31T10:49:42Z haom: is there a way to find out whether a package name or nickname is already taken? (for example in quicklisp) or in general?
2015-08-31T10:50:10Z resttime: haom: #'find-package ?
2015-08-31T10:50:36Z haom: resttime: i mean in the overall library ecosystem.
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2015-08-31T10:51:07Z haom: when i choose a "simple" package nickname, how do i know whether i clash with someone elses library?
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2015-08-31T10:55:18Z dim: you only do that in your own application, not in library code
2015-08-31T10:58:04Z haom: i am working on a library, and i am on a reverse dns notation now, but am considering a shorter handy nickname.
2015-08-31T10:59:11Z haom: is there some kind of generally accepted guideline how to deal with published package names?
2015-08-31T10:59:22Z haom: and especially short nicknames?
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2015-08-31T11:00:09Z dim: not that I know of
2015-08-31T11:00:33Z dim: pjb is using the long reverse-dns like notation, he might have some ideas how to approach that
2015-08-31T11:00:45Z dim: I would guess that you install the nicknames in your own local setup
2015-08-31T11:01:54Z mprelude: I think if/when I write libraries I'll be using rdns notation
2015-08-31T11:02:14Z mprelude: :com.mprelude.some-name
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2015-08-31T11:15:45Z resttime: Goodness gracious it all makes sense, I think I can write a primitive object system in common lisp of my own
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2015-08-31T11:16:38Z resttime: A let over a lambda that handles dispatch to a list of lambdas
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2015-08-31T11:17:41Z resttime: Removing or adding methods is simply having a dispatch can modifies this list of lambdas by removing or adding more of them
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2015-08-31T11:18:52Z resttime: Inheritance is simply copying these dispatches and lambdas then adding your own on top of them
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2015-08-31T11:21:15Z Shinmera: On Lisp discusses writing a minimal object system.
2015-08-31T11:21:50Z resttime: Method combination is just embedding an additional dispatch system into the list of lambdas
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2015-08-31T11:32:23Z resttime: Shinmera: Neat, I think I really need to start looking for more knowledge in books hahaha
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2015-08-31T11:33:25Z resttime: I'm over here trying banging my head trying to put pieces of a puzzle together when the book has everything already laid out lol
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2015-08-31T11:38:19Z resttime: Oh dear, I think my lack of sleep is taking a toll on my words
2015-08-31T11:39:15Z resttime: Time to #'reduce ingredients for an omelet
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2015-08-31T11:45:34Z dim: tried again loading a cffi based cl lib (cl-git), and again it fails to find the .so (.dylib here, same story I guess); I am so mad at the current foreign libs story in CL.
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2015-08-31T11:46:47Z Shinmera: I'm glad I won't have to deal with that problem anymore for Qt.
2015-08-31T11:46:56Z dim: thansk to ql-tools I guess?
2015-08-31T11:47:02Z Shinmera: Qt-libs
2015-08-31T11:47:06Z dim: ah yeah
2015-08-31T11:47:45Z Shinmera: I did have to deal with it again this month due to edge cases I didn't anticipate and further OS X (shakes fist) complications.
2015-08-31T11:48:32Z dim: as I wanted to write a quick and dirty POC here, and the main topic is database modeling, I think I will resort to run-program
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2015-08-31T11:48:39Z dim: still unhappy about it :/
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2015-08-31T11:48:56Z dim: (and qt-libs load fine here but (qt:make-qapplication) then segfaults)
2015-08-31T11:49:34Z Shinmera: I can't really debug that with that little information.
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2015-08-31T11:53:34Z dim: yeah I know, sorry about that, it was just "about that"
2015-08-31T11:53:56Z dim: I don't need you to spend time on this for me just now, don't worry ;-)
2015-08-31T11:54:50Z Shinmera: When you have the time, it'd be great if you could file a bug ticket with your machine details (os version, arch, package manager thing, xcode version, etc) and the exact output all the way to the segfault.
2015-08-31T11:55:12Z dim: sure
2015-08-31T11:55:25Z dim: will do, best is to ping me about it later
2015-08-31T11:55:34Z Shinmera: Alright.
2015-08-31T11:55:53Z dim: I would love to be able to try again writing GUI code, I've been known to suck at it big time, maybe I would now be able to make something about it ;-)
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2015-08-31T12:00:35Z Shinmera: Heh
2015-08-31T12:01:02Z Shinmera: I think I made some neat smaller to medium size examples of GUI applications, so you could have a look at those.
2015-08-31T12:01:25Z Shinmera: I really want to get back to Parasol, but... other things take priority.
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2015-08-31T12:02:25Z p_l: I wonder if I'll get any time to hack on some ideas of mine in this area :|
2015-08-31T12:02:37Z p_l: I really would like to bring back some GUI stuff
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2015-08-31T12:08:56Z Shinmera: Is there a "proper way" to get the numerical number of bytes consed for a block of code in SBCL? Currently I'm using sb-impl::get-bytes-consed, and it seems to me that that would include consing from other threads as well.
2015-08-31T12:09:23Z Shinmera: The note also says that it will often return a bignum, which is of course not optimal.
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2015-08-31T12:32:30Z resttime: Shinmera: I think sb-profile might be of interest?
2015-08-31T12:33:21Z resttime: It can give a report on functions you choose
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2015-08-31T12:33:31Z Shinmera: I'm writing a profiler myself.
2015-08-31T12:33:40Z Shinmera: Or something similar to it anyway.
2015-08-31T12:34:06Z Shinmera: I've already looked at sb-profile's source, but that doesn't tell me whether what it is doing is (still) the best way to go about it.
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2015-08-31T12:40:02Z Shinmera: And ouch, looks like calling generic functions conses on SBCL no matter what.
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2015-08-31T12:47:50Z krrrcks: resttime: There is a Lisp Zen saying: "objects are poor man's closures and closures are a poor man's objects."
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2015-08-31T12:48:09Z krrrcks: resttime: found here: http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg03277.html
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2015-08-31T12:52:56Z scymtym: Shinmera: can you paste your code for the consing gf invocation on SBCL?
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2015-08-31T12:53:25Z Shinmera: scymtym: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/BW#
2015-08-31T12:53:29Z resttime: krrrcks: Master, I have found that objects are truly a poor man's closures
2015-08-31T12:53:36Z scymtym: Shinmera: thank you
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2015-08-31T12:54:26Z Shinmera: Actually I'm now realising it might just cons the first time around when it compiles the methods to a more efficient version
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2015-08-31T12:54:47Z Shinmera: I'll do some more testing and see if I can be less stupid about this.
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2015-08-31T12:56:52Z resttime: Ouch, the stick hitting me is the implementation of an object system as closures
2015-08-31T12:57:05Z resttime became enlightened
2015-08-31T12:57:08Z Shinmera: scymtym: Yeah, looks like I was jumping to conclusions. Sorry about that.
2015-08-31T12:57:37Z resttime: krrrcks: Thanks, I liked reading over that
2015-08-31T12:58:41Z scymtym: Shinmera: no problem. the compile-on-first call behavior is often confusing. good thing you came to that conclusion so i don't have to investigate :)
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2015-08-31T12:59:08Z Shinmera: scymtym: I knew about that, but I was confused by the profile output because I forgot to reset it after the first run.
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2015-08-31T12:59:42Z scymtym: Shinmera: right, now that you mention it, i see it in the number of calls
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2015-08-31T13:04:06Z resttime became not enlightnened
2015-08-31T13:04:18Z resttime: Wait I don't think I can understand the limitations of closures in Common Lisp
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2015-08-31T13:04:47Z krrrcks hits resttime with a stick.
2015-08-31T13:04:57Z krrrcks: lol
2015-08-31T13:05:52Z krrrcks: resttime: didn't see the "became enlightened" ;)
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2015-08-31T13:06:41Z resttime: Is it really just the implementation that is the problem?
2015-08-31T13:07:29Z resttime: With defmacros in Common Lisp I can't really think of any
2015-08-31T13:07:52Z resttime: Err aside from the work put into making the implementation
2015-08-31T13:08:10Z resttime: Is the stick hitting me just the work it takes to make the implementation?
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2015-08-31T13:10:22Z rjmacready: hello
2015-08-31T13:10:31Z rjmacready: everyone ever got to be able to run mcclim in windows?
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2015-08-31T13:10:46Z rjmacready: i managed to do it in linux, asking before i give it a try
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2015-08-31T13:16:43Z resttime became enlightened
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2015-08-31T13:17:43Z resttime: I think I see it now, they are the closures and objects are the "same" yet not the "same"
2015-08-31T13:18:03Z Zhivago: Actually, that's the wrong way to think about it.
2015-08-31T13:18:11Z resttime: uh oh
2015-08-31T13:18:24Z resttime loses enlightenment
2015-08-31T13:18:25Z Zhivago: What you have are functions.
2015-08-31T13:18:41Z Zhivago: Those functions have a property of lexical closure over some variables.
2015-08-31T13:19:02Z Zhivago: The call interface to those functions can be used to mediate access to those closed over variables.
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2015-08-31T13:19:46Z Zhivago: So the significant thing is that functions which can modify themselves are equivalent to procedural objects.
2015-08-31T13:20:01Z Zhivago: Being having lexical closure is kind of incidental to that.
2015-08-31T13:20:07Z Zhivago: s/Being//
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2015-08-31T13:20:37Z Shinmera: axion: Looks like the source of the consing was division during measurement. That conses because most of the functions I'm measuring have a bignum return type.
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2015-08-31T13:21:33Z borodust: hi there
2015-08-31T13:21:38Z borodust: small question
2015-08-31T13:21:39Z jackdaniel:  /win 13
2015-08-31T13:21:55Z Zhivago: Of course, a 'function' that can modify itself is a procedure, which makes it less exciting.
2015-08-31T13:22:33Z Zhivago: So it just comes down to self-modifying procedures and modifiable objects are equivalent.
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2015-08-31T13:25:03Z borodust: why does log4cl uses its weird/smart packaging macros redefining/linking the world? is it something historically-driven with some compatibility in mind or what?
2015-08-31T13:25:29Z resttime: Oh wow I think I understand now, the moment when it holds capabilities to modify' itself it ceases to be a 'function'
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2015-08-31T13:25:46Z resttime: Zhivago: thanks
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2015-08-31T13:26:06Z krrrcks: resttime: the stick was a quote from the post ;)
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2015-08-31T13:27:00Z resttime became enlightened (maybe)
2015-08-31T13:27:44Z dlowe: The book Let Over Lambda goes into great detail on this mechanism.
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2015-08-31T13:29:46Z Zhivago: Actually, it's more that the moment that it experiences time it ceases to be a function.
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2015-08-31T13:30:21Z Zhivago: And becomes a sequence of operations over time -- i.e., a procedure.
2015-08-31T13:30:40Z Zhivago: You just can't modify something without having time involved, so ...
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2015-08-31T13:31:33Z pjb: krrrcks: rich man has both clojures and objects.
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2015-08-31T13:32:40Z pjb: resttime: it's normal you can't understand the limitations of closures in CL. There are none.
2015-08-31T13:33:41Z pjb: Have closure, will travel!
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2015-08-31T13:34:42Z Zhivago: Well, there are plenty of limitations.
2015-08-31T13:35:11Z Zhivago: For a start, they're lexical closures, which means that you can't add or remove them dynamically.
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2015-08-31T13:35:27Z pjb: As if that meant anything.
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2015-08-31T13:35:45Z Zhivago: Whereas objects in general and mutable procedures can be potentially extended dynamically.
2015-08-31T13:36:13Z pjb: If you go the potential, the same is true of closures.
2015-08-31T13:36:19Z Zhivago: There are also no introspection or interaccessory protocols defined for the closed-over variables of lexical closures, from without that lexical scope.
2015-08-31T13:36:21Z resttime: dlowe: Thanks I have heard of that book before, I'll up the priority for going over it
2015-08-31T13:36:40Z resttime: Zhivago: Thanks again, I think I understand it more clearly now
2015-08-31T13:36:41Z pjb: Just add the feature to your closure. There's no limit.
2015-08-31T13:36:45Z Zhivago: No. It's not true of lexical closures because they're a property of the lexical specification of the program.
2015-08-31T13:36:56Z Zhivago: resttime: You're welcome.
2015-08-31T13:36:59Z pjb: Add it LEXICALLY!
2015-08-31T13:37:06Z resttime: probably have to update my definitions of what a object, procedure, and function are
2015-08-31T13:37:29Z resttime: pjb: interesting lol
2015-08-31T13:37:31Z pjb: (lambda (m &rest a) (case m (extend-dynamically (add-some-dynamic-extension a))))
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2015-08-31T13:38:19Z Zhivago: That's not extending the lexical closure.
2015-08-31T13:38:39Z Zhivago: The problem is in hijacking the term lexical closure to mean random things.
2015-08-31T13:38:48Z pjb: (defun make-dynamic-closure (argument) (let (extension) (lambda (m &rest e) (case m (extend (setf extension e)) (run (funcall extension argument))))))
2015-08-31T13:39:00Z Zhivago: Likewise.
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2015-08-31T13:40:04Z pjb: Well: (defun make-dynamic-closure (argument) (let (extension) (lambda (m &rest e) (case m (extend (setf extension (first e))) (run (funcall extension argument))))))
2015-08-31T13:40:07Z pjb: (let ((c (make-dynamic-closure 42)))  (funcall c 'extend (lambda (x) (* 2 x))) (funcall c 'run 'z)) #| --> 84 |#
2015-08-31T13:40:17Z pjb: I tell you, no limit!
2015-08-31T13:40:20Z krrrcks: I feel that pjb is looking for his stick.
2015-08-31T13:40:31Z krrrcks hides under a tree and write some closures.
2015-08-31T13:40:38Z pjb: How do you believe CLOS objects do it?
2015-08-31T13:40:50Z pjb: If they hadn't this extend case, you couldn't extend them, DUH!
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2015-08-31T13:42:34Z Zhivago: CLOS objects aren't lexical closures.
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2015-08-31T13:47:04Z pjb: (let ((x 42)) (defclass c () ((x :initform x :reader x)))) (x (make-instance 'c)) --> 42
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2015-08-31T13:48:10Z pjb: Zhivago: you should better learn clhs…
2015-08-31T13:48:12Z pjb: The :initform slot option is used to provide a default initial value form to be used in the initialization of the slot. This form is evaluated every time it is used to initialize the slot. The lexical environment in which this form is evaluated is the lexical environment in which the defclass form was evaluated. Note that the lexical environment refers both to variables and to functions.
2015-08-31T13:48:16Z pjb: clhs defclass
2015-08-31T13:48:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2015-08-31T13:49:37Z Zhivago: Um, which part of that says that a CLOS object is a lexical closure?
2015-08-31T13:50:03Z pjb: Look how little it is a lexical closure: (let ((x 42)) (defclass d () ((x :initform x :reader x))) (defun f (z) (setf x z))) (x (make-instance 'd)) --> 42 (f 33) (x (make-instance 'd)) --> 33
2015-08-31T13:50:18Z pjb: Zhivago: fuck! I just quoted the passage!
2015-08-31T13:50:28Z Zhivago: You might be having trouble with the word 'is'.
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2015-08-31T13:50:39Z pjb: And don't you know that closure and objects are equivalent?
2015-08-31T13:50:42Z oGMo: er, i think Zhivago is saying a class instance is not a lexical closure, not that class definitions are subject to lexical closure
2015-08-31T13:50:50Z pjb: YOU seem to have a problem with the word 'is'.
2015-08-31T13:51:14Z Zhivago: Being equivalent under some measurement does not mean that one is the other.
2015-08-31T13:51:42Z pjb: oGMo: he can't say that, because I can implement CLOS with objects being typed lexical closures any time.
2015-08-31T13:52:09Z pjb: oGMo: you can assume that Zhivago doesn't know all the existing CL implementations.
2015-08-31T13:52:30Z oGMo: that's splitting hairs a bit :P
2015-08-31T13:53:20Z pjb: oGMo: who says that lexical closures have to be implemented as "lexical closures" whatever that means?  Zhivago is just raving as aways.
2015-08-31T13:53:39Z oGMo: pjb: "lexical closure" has a specific definition in clhs
2015-08-31T13:53:50Z pjb: For all we know, lexical closures are implemented as funcallable CLOS objects.
2015-08-31T13:54:04Z pjb: This is what equivalent means.
2015-08-31T13:54:32Z oGMo: it's possible, but in this specific case i think the discussion is going cross-wise because "is-a" has no real CL definition hhe
2015-08-31T13:55:56Z pjb: I can agree that most discussions with Zhivago comes from a distorted mind and language.  He's what can be called crazy. (Of course, you can also assume it's a relativistic notion).
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2015-08-31T13:56:56Z Zhivago: How functions with lexical closure are implemented is irrelevant to what lexical closure means.
2015-08-31T13:57:03Z Shinmera: axion: Should be fixed now, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
2015-08-31T13:57:03Z oGMo: then you're defining "equivalent to" to be something other than "the same as" or "indistinguishable from" or any other definition one would normally assume, since "possible implementation detail that's otherwise invisible except to the implementation" is generally not "equivalent" in any useful sense
2015-08-31T13:57:18Z pjb: How CLOS object are implemented is irrelevasnt to what CLOS object means.
2015-08-31T13:57:27Z pjb: They're just equivalent!
2015-08-31T13:57:30Z pjb: It's the same thing.
2015-08-31T13:57:33Z Zhivago: pjb: You appear to be gibbering.
2015-08-31T13:57:34Z pjb: They have the same properties.
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2015-08-31T14:00:44Z resttime: Huh, so this is what a fight between masters looks like
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2015-08-31T14:05:10Z warweasle: resttime: Much like Kung-fu there are many different schools of lisp. You don't want to listen to the Lovecraftian's though. They will drive you mad.
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2015-08-31T14:11:56Z jackdaniel: who won?
2015-08-31T14:11:57Z jackdaniel: :D
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2015-08-31T14:13:41Z jackdaniel: grep -rn "ecase"
2015-08-31T14:13:47Z jackdaniel: derp
2015-08-31T14:13:50Z theos: :>
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2015-08-31T15:40:17Z aeth: Is there anything that can be done to multi-dimensional arrays other than aref and the arguments in make-array itself? They're not sequences so it doesn't look like much if anything is doable.
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2015-08-31T15:41:07Z flip214: aeth: you can alias the elements to other-dimensional arrays, eg. to a 1-dimensional (with arbitrary offset and length)
2015-08-31T15:41:13Z flip214: and then it's a sequence
2015-08-31T15:41:16Z aeth: *ah*
2015-08-31T15:42:02Z rme: aeth: see also row-major-aref
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2015-08-31T15:46:19Z aeth: It looks like I can also make the array with :initial-contents as (vector (vector ...) ...) or #(#(...) ...) instead of the quoted list form in the hyperspec examples.
2015-08-31T15:48:41Z aeth: Hmm, that turns out to be irrelevant, it seems ot do it by copying. So (vector *foo*) where *foo* is #(0 1 2 3) and then changing *foo* does not seem to change *bar*
2015-08-31T15:48:42Z ggole: Any sequence should do
2015-08-31T15:48:54Z aeth: s/ot/to/
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2015-08-31T15:52:53Z flip214: aeth: :initial-contents will be copied in, right. to alias use (MAKE-ARRAY ... :displaced-to ... :displaced-index-offset ...)
2015-08-31T15:53:48Z aeth: yes I just found that out a few minutes ago by reading the source code of a library that uses multi-dimensional arrays. I probably should have done that before asking.
2015-08-31T15:54:13Z pjb: aeth: if your element-type is bit, then you can apply all the bit- functions to pairs of bit arrays.
2015-08-31T15:54:22Z pjb: aeth: instant graphic package.
2015-08-31T15:54:27Z pjb: (at least, on bitmaps).
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2015-08-31T16:29:11Z Firedancer: Sorry newbie question, but do you which paths SBCL uses to search for .dll files on Windows? I have been trying to get cl-sdl2-ttf work that error tryint to load cffi-libffi that tries to invoke gcc and I have been hoping that I would not need to do that
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2015-08-31T16:37:31Z warweasle: Firedancer: That's a good question. I use Linux so I don't really know. I would expect system32 or 64 and then the present working directory.
2015-08-31T16:37:40Z warweasle: Firedancer: But I don't really know.
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2015-08-31T17:17:07Z jasom: Firedancer: windows will search the CWD for .DLLs; this usually defaults to whatever directory sbcl is in (or your executable image if you've built one)
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2015-08-31T17:17:38Z jasom: But I'm guessing cffi-libffi is invoking gcc for grovelling
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2015-08-31T17:46:03Z Firedancer: So I guess there isn't really way to avoid gcc call then?
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2015-08-31T18:00:02Z bobbysmith007: dim: Looking at the docs its not clear, but I assume pgloader is usable from the lisp repl, or would you suggest sticking to the command line?
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2015-08-31T18:25:25Z AeroNotix: can I customize how results from (things such as) C-c C-w c are shown in SLIME?
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2015-08-31T18:25:36Z AeroNotix: e.g. I want an autocomplete-like display, not a different buffer
2015-08-31T18:25:52Z AeroNotix: I mean a built-in way
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2015-08-31T18:30:13Z krrrcks: Firedancer: I remember that looking for DLLs was a pain; I think I always put them in the same directory as the SBCL binary.
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2015-08-31T18:33:06Z Firedancer: Even if SBCL finds the DLL-files, it complains that they are not valid win32 application....
2015-08-31T18:34:20Z krrrcks: weird
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2015-08-31T18:36:48Z Firedancer: I guess I should figure out some other CL project to work on
2015-08-31T18:37:12Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: there's `autocomplete` with `ac-slime`
2015-08-31T18:37:24Z Shinmera: Firedancer: that means your architecture is mismatched
2015-08-31T18:37:57Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L6
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2015-08-31T18:42:21Z Firedancer: I guess it may be solved with 32-bit sbcl, but that starts to feel like a pretty inelegant solution
2015-08-31T18:42:31Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: but that doesn't affect C-c C-w c
2015-08-31T18:42:53Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: It doesn't, but it shows you autocomplete-like display as you asked.
2015-08-31T18:43:08Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: for which features? I already had ac-slime enabled.
2015-08-31T18:44:06Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: Oh, wait, I had the wrong keybinding in mind. Sorry.
2015-08-31T18:44:20Z AeroNotix: ok
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2015-08-31T19:13:17Z AeroNotix: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Presentations.html#Presentations random link but the CSS for this documentation is really quite stunningly simple and nice
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2015-08-31T19:38:47Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you online?
2015-08-31T19:39:14Z drmeister: Actually sorry, general question.    (defstruct foo a)
2015-08-31T19:39:40Z drmeister: (read-from-string "(#1=\"Hello\" #S(FOO :A #1#)")  -->   What should this produce?
2015-08-31T19:39:55Z drmeister: SBCL produces ("Hello" #S(FOO :A "Hello"))
2015-08-31T19:40:03Z drmeister: ECL and Clasp produce an error that #1# is not defined.
2015-08-31T19:40:08Z drmeister: Who's right?
2015-08-31T19:41:17Z drmeister: I think SBCL is right.
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2015-08-31T19:43:42Z rme: SBCL's behavior is what I would expect.
2015-08-31T19:43:45Z Shinmera: clhs 2.4.8.15
2015-08-31T19:43:46Z specbot: Sharpsign Equal-Sign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
2015-08-31T19:43:55Z drmeister: The next question is "what is the remedy?"  I believe that the problem is that the ECL/Clasp SHARP-S-READER function is calling READ with RECURSIVE-P defaulting to NIL.
2015-08-31T19:43:56Z krrrcks: drmeister: CCL gives a: Can't initialize structure from (FOO :A "Hello").
2015-08-31T19:44:11Z Shinmera: This says the label is scoped by READ, so it should be defined.
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2015-08-31T19:44:31Z Shinmera: Or rather, it's scoped by the /outermost/ READ.
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2015-08-31T19:44:53Z drmeister: Shinmera: That says it all - thank you.
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2015-08-31T19:45:20Z drmeister: So if a reader macro calls READ - how does it know to set RECURSIVE-P to T ?
2015-08-31T19:45:28Z Shinmera: drmeister: I'm always happy to take a dive into the CLHS for things like this :)
2015-08-31T19:45:30Z drmeister: Are reader macros always called from within a READ?
2015-08-31T19:45:47Z rme: krrrcks: Youu probably didn't evaluate (defstruct foo a) first.
2015-08-31T19:45:59Z krrrcks: rme: silly me
2015-08-31T19:46:00Z rme: Because CCL behaves as I would expect.
2015-08-31T19:46:21Z drmeister: In the ECL/Clasp source code:    (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\S 'sharp-s-reader)
2015-08-31T19:47:00Z Shinmera: drmeister: Well you can get the dispatch function if you want and call it wherever. I don't know why that would be useful outside of READ, but you can do it
2015-08-31T19:47:00Z drmeister: Here is SHARP-S-READER:
2015-08-31T19:47:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/7bsbfKxo/
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2015-08-31T19:47:22Z krrrcks: rme: You're right; I overlooked that line.
2015-08-31T19:47:32Z drmeister: Notice line 5  (let ((l (read stream))) ...
2015-08-31T19:48:14Z drmeister: I think it should be:   (let ((l (read stream t nil t))) ...
2015-08-31T19:48:19Z drmeister: Does that sound right?
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2015-08-31T19:49:03Z drmeister: Then it won't rebind the sharp-equal hash tables that sharp-sharp uses.
2015-08-31T19:49:10Z rme: drmeister: yeah
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2015-08-31T19:51:04Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I believe that ecl/src/lsp/iolib.lsp  in the sharp-s-reader reader macro where it says (let ((l (read stream)))  it should be (let ((l (read stream t nil t)))..   Otherwise things like (defstruct foo a) (read-from-string "(#1=\"Hello\" #S(FOO :A #1#)) won't work.
2015-08-31T19:51:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-08-31T19:51:26Z Shinmera: drmeister: I suppose it's implied that a macro character function always calls READ recursively since it should only be invoked through READ.
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2015-08-31T19:51:58Z Shinmera: You can invoke it outside of read, but as I said, I don't see why you would want to, except perhaps for when you're writing your own reader or something equally outlandish.
2015-08-31T19:53:21Z drmeister: That what I thought - otherwise I don't see how a reader macro would decide to call read with RECURSIVE-P=T or not
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2015-08-31T19:53:51Z Shinmera: Of course, the proper way to do this would be to either have a function argument or a special variable to indicate read-environment-ness.
2015-08-31T19:53:54Z Shinmera: But hey.
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2015-08-31T19:54:15Z Shinmera: I suppose you could introduce that if you wanted, but I doubt it's something that would be of much use.
2015-08-31T19:54:23Z drmeister: Right, but reader macros have a defined calling convention.
2015-08-31T19:54:32Z Shinmera: Sure, but there's always special variables.
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2015-08-31T19:55:00Z Shinmera: You could have a ext:*read-environment-p* or something.
2015-08-31T19:55:16Z Shinmera: I doubt you'd want to waste your time on that though.
2015-08-31T19:56:14Z drmeister: The ECL SHARP-A-READER macro calls READ with RECURSIVE-P = T
2015-08-31T19:57:26Z drmeister: That does the trick.
2015-08-31T19:57:34Z Shinmera: One more bug down.
2015-08-31T19:57:40Z drmeister: I'm calling it a bug.
2015-08-31T19:57:48Z Shinmera: Because it is.
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2015-08-31T19:58:13Z Shinmera: How did you come across his? A ticket on github?
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2015-08-31T19:58:30Z Shinmera: Labels aren't really a common occurrence.
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2015-08-31T20:12:36Z drmeister: I'm using the lisp printer to serialize objects.
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2015-08-31T20:12:55Z Shinmera: Ah.
2015-08-31T20:13:00Z drmeister: It spits out a lot of labels - but I've discovered another problem that may have led to the previous one.
2015-08-31T20:13:24Z drmeister: Here's what SBCL does:
2015-08-31T20:13:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bbaC5qoM/
2015-08-31T20:14:20Z drmeister: Here's what ECL does:
2015-08-31T20:14:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jzlhAU6a/
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2015-08-31T20:14:55Z drmeister: Clasp goes kind of nuts with #x= and #x# labels - it gives good compression but the ECL symbol printer screws up
2015-08-31T20:15:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D91AT558/
2015-08-31T20:15:28Z drmeister: Note the :#2=A   - that's really, really wrong.
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2015-08-31T20:16:05Z drmeister: The question is why would the printer be assigning labels to the keyword symbols.  SBCL and ECL don't do that.
2015-08-31T20:16:59Z drmeister: Clasp does and the code that I copied from ECL doesn't like it because it prints a ':' before it prints the #2={symbol name}
2015-08-31T20:17:21Z Shinmera: Probably it isn't recognising that these objects are read to be EQ already.
2015-08-31T20:17:55Z Shinmera: Right, that's not legal.
2015-08-31T20:18:32Z Shinmera: As for the exact reason why this is happening: It's in your source somewhere, I doubt anyone else can easily tell you where though.
2015-08-31T20:19:35Z Shinmera: If you can, diff the affected sources against ECL
2015-08-31T20:19:56Z Shinmera: But I'm guessing you rewrote the reader in C++, so.
2015-08-31T20:20:03Z Shinmera: err, printer
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2015-08-31T20:22:56Z drmeister: Yeah, I rewrote the printer so diffing won't help
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2015-08-31T20:25:44Z drmeister: The printer converts a structure into something like a property list (alternating keyword symbols and values) so the keywords are symbols and there's no reason why they couldn't be assigned to labels.
2015-08-31T20:26:41Z Shinmera: Yeah but :#2=A is definitely not the same as #2=:A
2015-08-31T20:27:05Z Shinmera: And generally, you do want things to be humanly readable.
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2015-08-31T20:29:19Z drmeister: Would this be legal?    #S(#1=FOO #2=:A #3=#S(#1# #2# #4=:A #5=:B #4#) #5# #3#)
2015-08-31T20:30:02Z drmeister: Or should it always be #S(#1=FOO :A #2=#S(#1# :A #4=:A :B #4#) :B #2#)
2015-08-31T20:30:28Z pjb: drmeister: interned objects don't need #=.
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2015-08-31T20:30:33Z drmeister: Should I exempt they keywords from circularity detection.
2015-08-31T20:30:49Z Shinmera: It seems legal, but it is annoyingly and superfluously obfuscated.
2015-08-31T20:30:52Z pjb: While printing I wouldn't expect #= to be used with an internet symbol.  While reading, it would be acceptable.
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2015-08-31T20:31:07Z pjb: Definitely.
2015-08-31T20:31:10Z drmeister: pjb: But it's more compact if :abcdefghijklmnopq  -->  #1#
2015-08-31T20:31:16Z drmeister: But less readable.
2015-08-31T20:31:22Z Shinmera: drmeister: symbols and numbers.
2015-08-31T20:31:28Z Shinmera: print-circle isn't about compactness.
2015-08-31T20:31:28Z pjb: and characters.
2015-08-31T20:31:31Z Shinmera: It's about printing circles.
2015-08-31T20:31:39Z pjb: shared structures in general.
2015-08-31T20:31:44Z pjb: shared sub-sexps.
2015-08-31T20:31:50Z Shinmera: If you want to have a compact printer mode, you're free to add it.
2015-08-31T20:32:03Z Shinmera: But please, let me keep my sanity by keeping it out of the default.
2015-08-31T20:32:06Z drmeister: So symbols and number could be exempt from circularity detection?
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2015-08-31T20:32:52Z Shinmera: and characters, as pjb added.
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2015-08-31T20:33:48Z Shinmera: packages too, actually
2015-08-31T20:34:13Z Shinmera: But those go under unprintable objects already anyway.
2015-08-31T20:34:17Z pjb: Yes.
2015-08-31T20:34:32Z Shinmera: err, unreadable
2015-08-31T20:34:55Z drmeister: I think this is the code that exempts objects from circularity testing:
2015-08-31T20:34:56Z drmeister: #S(#1=FOO #2=:A #3=#S(#1# #2# #4=:A #5=:B #4#) #5# #3#)
2015-08-31T20:34:59Z drmeister: No.
2015-08-31T20:35:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8x12KyG2/
2015-08-31T20:35:55Z Shinmera: drmeister: Why not just numberp?
2015-08-31T20:36:29Z drmeister: This was copied from ECL a long time ago.  Now that I look at it I'm thinking I might change it.
2015-08-31T20:37:21Z Shinmera: Numbers in general don't have to be EQ, so they don't need to get labelled.
2015-08-31T20:39:23Z drmeister: I have to add, I copied the original a long time ago and then I hacked it to ignore Clasp's immediate values (valistp, single_floatp)
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2015-08-31T20:40:03Z Shinmera: Just ignore all number.s
2015-08-31T20:40:08Z Shinmera: *numbers
2015-08-31T20:40:25Z drmeister: I added !cl_symbolp(x)   and now I get this...
2015-08-31T20:40:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KQRWQUiW/
2015-08-31T20:40:47Z drmeister: (#S(FOO :A :A :B #1=#S(FOO :A 1 :B 2)) #1#)
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2015-08-31T20:41:44Z Shinmera: Looks good to me.
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2015-08-31T20:44:04Z drmeister: What about numbers?   A double precision value is on the heap so output like:  (#S(FOO :A #1=2.0d0 :B #2=#S(FOO :A 1 :B #1#)) #2#)    is reasonable isn't it?
2015-08-31T20:44:52Z drmeister: With the #1=2.0d0   and later #1#
2015-08-31T20:44:55Z Shinmera: You can do it, but you don't have to.
2015-08-31T20:45:44Z pjb: and given that an implementation may make copies of numbers and characters at any time, it would be rather meaningless!
2015-08-31T20:45:49Z pjb: useless I mean.
2015-08-31T20:46:06Z Shinmera: As I said before, numbers don't have to be EQ, so a label is not necessary.
2015-08-31T20:46:07Z drmeister: Ok, I'm sold.
2015-08-31T20:46:55Z drmeister: I added !cl_numberp(x)
2015-08-31T20:47:10Z drmeister: Is there anything else to remove from circularity printing?
2015-08-31T20:47:19Z drmeister: circularity detection during printing?
2015-08-31T20:47:54Z drmeister: This will make things more human readable - that's good.
2015-08-31T20:48:04Z pjb: that should be all.  interned symbols, numbers and characters.
2015-08-31T20:48:15Z Shinmera: As I said, packages. But unless you have those readable, no matter.
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2015-08-31T20:49:56Z drmeister: Ok, as I mentioned, I'm using the lisp printer/reader for serialization.  I've added the ability to print hash tables and every C++ class that can be exposed to Common Lisp just needs to expose one function and it will be printed/read as well.
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2015-08-31T20:51:44Z drmeister: I converted the static analyzer that analyzes the C++ code and builds the MPS garbage collector to use this facility to serialize its results.   So I need to get this working in order to bring MPS back online.
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2015-08-31T20:52:15Z drmeister: And awwwwwaaaayyyyy it goes!
2015-08-31T20:52:41Z Shinmera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEC_5vM79wU
2015-08-31T20:54:02Z drmeister: Yes! Exactly like that!
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